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Mr Speaker
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Oral Answers to Questions
(12 years ago)
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Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
1. What plans his Department has to consult stakeholders about the conservation plans which give effect to marine conservation zones.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
I expect to consult shortly on the first round of marine conservation zones.
Andrew George
I am grateful to the Minister for that reply. Like him, I am a strong advocate of this policy and have been for some time. May I seek reassurance that the introduction of this policy will create an ecologically coherent network of marine conservation zones, and will he ensure that all stakeholders—fishermen and environmentalists—are fully consulted on conservation plans, as well as on the designation of sites?
Richard Benyon
My hon. Friend and I are veterans of the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. We have strived hard to achieve the definition of ecological coherence, which I am confident we will achieve. He is right to say that the next stage of consultation concerns the management of conservation zones, and I absolutely agree that fishermen and other stakeholders who were involved in the early stages of the process should be included.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
Statutory conservation bodies and the scientific advisory panel have said that to achieve an ecologically coherent network we need 127 marine conservation zones. There are clear indications that the Government intend to reduce significantly the number of zones, so will the Minister look at substituting other zones for those that have been dropped?
Richard Benyon
With respect to the hon. Lady, I am not the slightest bit interested in numbers or lines on maps. I am interested in an ecologically coherent network that can stand up to the independent scientific advisory panel, which stated that some of the 127 sites did not have enough scientific evidence to support them. When introducing the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009, the then Government said, quite rightly, that the zones needed to be evidence-based. We have put lots of resources into getting more evidence—we will bring forward the first tranche of that any day now—and we will continue to progress this expensive yet important measure as years go by.
Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)
I welcome the Minister’s proposed visit to the Isle of Wight. Is he confident that the economic impact of MCZs, particularly off the island, will be given sufficient consideration and weight before any formal decision is made?
Richard Benyon
Quite rightly, the Act allowed Ministers the discretion to consider socio-economic impacts in the designation of zones. I assure my hon. Friend and his constituents that we will take such considerations into account.
Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab)
The Minister’s Department insists that a lack of scientific certainty should not be used as an excuse to delay the establishment of marine conservation zones. Three and a half years after Labour’s world-leading Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009, and £8.5 million, the latest nature watch report by the Wildlife and Countryside Link has awarded Ministers a black mark for their inaction. When the Department is given an opportunity to act, why does it choose instead to dither?
Richard Benyon
The hon. Gentleman had only to consult his colleague on the Front Bench, the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), to understand the basis of what we are seeking to achieve. A couple of weeks ago, those on the Labour Front Bench were wrongly accusing the Government of ignoring scientific advice. The hon. Gentleman is now telling us to ignore such advice but I am sorry, we are not prepared to do that. The establishment of marine conservation zones must be done properly and stand up in terms of evidence. In the full spirit of the 2009 Act, on which all parties agreed, we must have absolute clarity on what is meant by ecological coherence, and we will get there.
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
2. What recent steps he has taken to ensure that farmers receive a fair price for milk.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath)
After months of hard work, not least by my predecessor, the right hon. Member for South East Cambridgeshire (Sir James Paice), the industry code of practice is now being translated into contracts. I am encouraged to hear of new contracts and pricing mechanisms that improve the transparency and fairness of milk prices for farmers. The Government will soon be consulting on our domestic implementation of the EU dairy package, enabling dairy farmers to form recognised producer organisations to further improve their bargaining power.
Andrew Selous
There has been a dairy herd of Holstein Friesians in Eggington, outside Leighton Buzzard, since 1933, but I was concerned to learn from the farmer in July that he is not confident that milk production can continue there, which would be an absolute tragedy. The farmer told me last night that he receives 30.5p per litre, but when I checked this morning, Tesco was selling milk for 86.3p per litre, which is 49p a pint. Is the Minister sure that farmers are getting a fair share, and what can we do to ensure they have a sustainable future?
Mr Heath
We need to do a lot of things to support the dairy industry, but I am optimistic. If we can make the voluntary code stick—I have no reason to suppose we cannot—it will go a very long way to improving the transparency of contracts, and, as the hon. Gentleman knows, the Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill is going through the House. The Department will do everything it can to maintain the profitability of producers and ensure that every part of the supply chain is fairly treated, including the retailer and the consumer.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
Following our meeting of some weeks ago, will the Minister outline what discussions he has had with the devolved Minister in Northern Ireland on an evaluation of the operation of the voluntary code for the dairy industry? Is he satisfied that the dairy industry is being sufficiently protected?
Mr Heath
As I have indicated to the hon. Lady, I would be very happy to talk to the Minister in the Northern Ireland Government, whom I met at the Agriculture Council. That matter did not crop up in our conversation, but the door is open to discuss how we might move forwards together on this important issue for farmers in the hon. Lady’s constituency.
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)
My hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) mentioned Bedfordshire and Tesco, but will the Minister praise the work of supermarkets such as Waitrose, which not only pays a fairer price, but pays promptly?
Mr Heath
Both those elements are essential, but I do not want to name and shame specific supermarkets, however tempting that might be. I want all major supermarket chains to behave in a fair and transparent way as far as their suppliers are concerned. There are signs that that is happening not only in the dairy sector, but in other produce sectors.
Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
The supply chain practices affecting our dairy industry affect other livestock producers, perhaps none more so than our pig producers, which are close to the Minister’s heart. Pigs are being sold well below the cost of production. Given VION’s announcements last week, what will the Minister do to ensure a future for the pig industry?
Mr Heath
The hon. Lady is absolutely right to say that I am interested in the pig sector, having bred pigs myself. She will know that we cannot disguise the cyclical nature of the pig industry. Having said that, I am concerned about the current position, but there are signs of progress. Some supermarkets are now prepared to share risk in the pigmeat sector, which I want to encourage.
Mr Speaker
The milking of pigs is a novelty, and although I am not an expert on these matters, I hazard the guess that it would prove to be an unprofitable activity.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
3. What recent discussions he has had on flooding.
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson)
First, I offer my condolences to those who lost family and friends in the recent floods, and my sympathies to those whose lives have been disrupted.
I have had many discussions recently on flooding. On 23 November, I met representatives from all the public services in Northampton to discuss their experiences. Last week, I visited Exeter and Kennford to talk about flooding with local communities there. My ministerial colleagues, my officials and I are also in regular contact with our counterparts in other Departments and agencies on flooding issues.
Bill Esterson
I associate myself with the Secretary of State’s remarks about those who suffered in the recent floods. Given the misery caused by flooding to many people throughout the country, does he agree that we should do everything we can to prevent building on land that floods? Will he remind the planning Minister that his comments about building on the countryside have caused great concern among those facing the risk of flooding?
Mr Paterson
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his comments about those who have suffered so much in the recent floods.
The recent national planning policy framework is absolutely clear. It seeks to ensure that development is located away from flood risk wherever possible; that the development that is needed in flood-risk areas is safe and resilient; that flood risk is assessed so it can be avoided and managed; and that opportunities offered by new development are used to reduce the causes and impacts of flooding.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
The Secretary of State’s hon. Friend, the Under-Secretary of State, will have seen the heart-wrenching devastation caused by terrible flooding last weekend in the town of Malmesbury in my constituency. They were not new houses on flood plains; 500-year-old cottages on the verge of the river were particularly badly affected. The people there are badly affected by the fact that they cannot get contents insurance. What steps is the Secretary of State taking to enter into negotiations with the Association of British Insurers to reach a solution that will allow everyone, whether in flood-affected areas or not, to insure the contents of their houses?
Mr Paterson
I wholeheartedly concur with my hon. Friend’s comments about the real difficulties faced in Malmesbury, which was visited by my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State.
The first meeting I had outside the office was with the ABI in September, and we have been working closely in recent weeks. We are involved in detailed negotiations, as the statement of principles was always going to come to an end in 2013. We want to achieve a better system of insurance that is as comprehensive as possible, provides affordability, and is not a huge burden on the taxpayer. Those detailed negotiations are continuing. The ball is in the ABI’s court and we look forward to hearing from it shortly.
Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)
13. The floods in the past few weeks have highlighted the importance of affordable home insurance for home owners in constituencies such as Easington, Wansbeck, and across the north-east and the whole country. We were promised a deal on flood insurance by July this year. We heard from the Prime Minister that Oliver Letwin is in charge of the negotiations. Will the Secretary of State tell us why this policy has been so badly delayed? Will he clarify the position to the House?
Mr Speaker
The hon. Gentleman was referring to the right hon. Member for West Dorset (Mr Letwin).
Mr Paterson
I remind the hon. Gentleman that the statement of principles was always going to run out in 2013. That was confirmed in 2008, and we inherited absolutely nothing from his Government. We have been working closely with the ABI. We are in detailed negotiations and I totally agree with him that we want to achieve a system that is affordable and as comprehensive as possible, and which is not a burden on the taxpayer. We are working towards that. These are detailed negotiations, but I cannot conduct them in public or on the Floor of the House of Commons.
Mr Speaker
The hon. Lady has changed her mind. We are saddened. Mr Gary Streeter.
Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con)
I thank you, Mr Speaker, and my hon. Friend the Member for Wells (Tessa Munt).
I am glad that the Secretary of State has been to Exeter. From that visit, he will know that the recent floods disrupted the vital train link between the far south-west and London. Will he ensure that any future investment in flood defences takes into account protecting vital transport infrastructure, not just homes and businesses?
Mr Paterson
I enjoyed my visit to Exeter and I pay tribute to everyone who pulled together—councils, public services, the Environment Agency and all those who managed to repair the railway line. I saw where it had been breached and they got the line working the day after I was there. I hope it reassures my hon. Friend to hear that the first phone call I made on leaving Exeter was to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport who had already been on the case to ensure that the vital rail link was restored. I totally endorse my hon. Friend’s point about transport links and flooding.
Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab)
I echo the condolences of the Secretary of State to the families and friends of those who lost their lives in the floods.
Last week, there was an announcement of a new £120 million U-turn on flood defence spending. However, even after that announcement, the Government will still spend less on flood defences in 2013 than Labour spent in 2008. Just 30% of that money will be spent next year because the Environment Agency no longer has the staff capacity to get the money out of the door. It is difficult to decide which is more incompetent: cutting the budget too far in the first place or, when they change their mind, not having the capacity to get the money out of the door and to the communities that need it.
Mr Paterson
I love the way the hon. Lady always looks for the downside in a story—her ingenuity is tremendous. The fact is that on 11 September, within a week of coming in, I met the chairman of the Environment Agency, Lord Smith. We saw a great scheme, which, in fairness, her Government launched in Nottingham. I asked him to come forward with proposals for future flood schemes, as the benefits in Nottingham were clear—not just 16,000 houses protected by the £45 million scheme, but the 500 acres freed up for development, which had previously been blighted. He wrote to me, quickly, on 26 September, and I am happy to give the hon. Lady the letter. We have put what he asked for into practice, to the letter: another £120 million, which will be of great benefit and save a further 60,000 houses from flooding.
Mr Speaker
I appeal to colleagues to speed up the exchanges. We have a lot to get through, and questions and answers are too long.
Mary Creagh
Of course, it is great to build flood defences, but it is just as important to maintain the ones we already have and to keep our rivers clear. Yesterday, however, the Chancellor announced that a further £60 million would be cut from DEFRA’s budget, so can the Secretary of State guarantee that no further cuts will fall on the Environment Agency’s river-dredging and maintenance budget, which is already set to fall from £108 million in 2010 to just £60 million in 2015?
Mr Paterson
As the hon. Lady knows, we inherited a hideous mess from her Government and are taking time to put it right in a very difficult world environment. I have to go back to my early reading, when I came into the House, of “Erskine May”, but she must stick to the truth on these issues. In total, with all the agencies involved, the Government will spend more over the four-year term than the Labour Government spent over their last four-year spending round.
Mr Speaker
I know that the Secretary of State was not suggesting that the hon. Lady would knowingly tell an untruth. He would not suggest that, I am sure, because he would be in breach of the conventions of the House if he were to do so. Will he confirm that he was not suggesting that she would knowingly tell an untruth?
Mr Speaker
Order. I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. I think we will take that as a no. He is not suggesting anything of the sort, but simply seeking to put his own position on the record, for which we are grateful.
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
4. What plans he has for the future structure of the water and sewerage industry.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
The Government’s water White Paper set out our vision for a resilient and sustainable water industry that is able to attract long-term investment. We are committed to measured reform to protect the strengths of the current system. Our draft Water Bill includes proposals to deliver evolutionary reform of the water sector. This will benefit customers and enable new players and new ways of thinking to enter the market.
David Mowat
The UK regulated asset base has been a great driver of inward investment into the UK for infrastructure projects. Will the Minister confirm that there is nothing in the draft Bill that will undermine the size of that asset base, and will he consider using the regulated asset model to bring in money for badly needed flood defences?
Richard Benyon
I can confirm that the golden thread running through our water White Paper, all our policies since then and, in particular, the Water Bill underpins our commitment to continued investment in this sector. It has benefited from £108 billion of low-cost investment over the past 22 years, and we want to see that outstanding success continue. I note what my hon. Friend says about the plans to extend the model to flood defences. That proposal has been put by one or two water companies. We do not propose to bring it forward at this time, but we are always open to considering such matters.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
If the Minister is doing something about the structure of the water industry, I hope he will be influenced by the fact that, as it has been revealed, three companies do not pay any tax.
On a specific problem with sewage and water, is he aware that most hospitals discharge all their food waste straight down into the sewerage system? Is it not about time we did something about that 19th-century practice?
Richard Benyon
One of the reforms that we are seeking to introduce in the draft Water Bill is about bringing innovation into the sector. There are fantastic new technologies that can tackle precisely the sort of things the hon. Gentleman talks about, and the Bill will allow such schemes to be introduced in a cost-effective way.
Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)
5. What assessment he has made of the effect of partnership funding on the provision of flood defences.
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson)
Partnership funding is enabling more flood and coastal schemes to go ahead and giving local people more choice in how their community is protected. The approach has brought forward £72 million of external funding so far. This is likely to increase further, compared with the £13 million during the previous period. Early indications suggest that up to a third more schemes will go ahead in the coming years than if the previous funding system had remained.
Graham Evans
Has the Department been liaising with insurance companies to help individuals affected by the most recent floods, such as the businesses that were affected in Northwich?
Mr Paterson
I enjoyed my visit to Northwich and pay tribute to all who have worked so hard to put the town straight after a difficult time in the floods. We are working with a range of agencies, including the insurance industry, to ensure that floods cause as little disruption to people’s lives as possible.
Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab)
In a press statement issued earlier this year outlining the £120 million of additional funding that would be made available for flood defence work, the Secretary of State mentioned Derby. Some 2,000 households in Chester Green and Darley Abbey are at risk of flooding. The city council has an excellent scheme of flood defence works. Can he outline the percentage that would be expected from the city council to get those works under way?
Mr Paterson
We are working on the details of the extra money as we speak, but the hon. Gentleman might be pleased to note that Derby was mentioned in the letter that Lord Smith wrote to me on 26 September. I would strongly urge the hon. Gentleman to get involved in the negotiations and push for his town.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
6. What steps his Department is taking to ensure that super-dairies do not have a detrimental effect on animal welfare and traditional British farming.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath)
There is a place in UK agriculture for all sustainable production systems that meet our welfare and environmental standards. That is necessary to enable the industry to be competitive in UK, EU and global markets. Increasing the size of herds does not necessarily mean reducing welfare. More important factors are the design and construction of the units and the level of management and skill of the stockmen.
Bob Blackman
I am delighted that we have some of the most stringent regulations in the world to protect cattle, but can my hon. Friend confirm that the Animal Welfare Act 2006 and the Welfare of Farmed Animals (England) Regulations will be rigorously enforced to protect cattle from those who would exploit them?
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
One of the greatest problems for dairy farmers is the retention and disposal of slurry, especially in poor weather conditions. What steps is the Minister taking to help to ensure that farmers can dispose of slurry in the poor conditions we face.
Mr Heath
Members are being very inventive in their use of questions today. This is a real issue: many of us find it frustrating that slurry disposal is dictated by date rather than good husbandry practice. As the hon. Gentleman may know, I have extended the period for spreading slurry in England to the greatest extent I can within the regulations. I cannot do more than that, but we are working with the industry to find the best possible ways of helping farmers to dispose of slurry, which they cannot currently spread on wet fields.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
Long-term successful farmers always make animal welfare and nutrition top priorities. Does the Minister agree that at the heart of all successful and profitable farming lies a commitment to animal welfare and that any system should be judged against that principle?
Mr Heath
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. A good stockman recognises that the welfare of the animals under his or her control is of paramount importance. No one can farm well if they ignore the welfare of animals. As far as we are concerned, maintaining the highest possible welfare standards—as well as maintaining the pressure on the European Union more widely to adopt them—is a top priority.
Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)
7. What assessment he has made of steps taken by his Department to reduce the burden of regulation on farmers.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath)
Good progress is being made to reduce regulatory burdens on farmers through our response to the farming regulation task force, through which, among other initiatives, we are working to reduce the burden of on-farm inspections and paperwork. Costs to farmers of complying with regulations are falling. Since 2011, for every £1 of new compliance costs, we are removing over £13 of inefficient compliance costs.
Mark Menzies
Farmers in Fylde are constantly raising with me the amount of paperwork they face and the regulatory burdens that causes. Will the Minister update the House on the recommendations he is making that will allow farmers to get on with farming and ease the burden?
Mr Heath
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. It would detain the House for quite a long time if I went through all 137 commitments we have made on introducing deregulatory measures, but let me give one recent example of how we are working to reduce the burden of paperwork on farmers. We now provide for some record-keeping exemptions for low-intensity farms, as a result of the Government’s recent nitrates consultation. I hope that indicates the tenor of what we are trying to achieve in the Department.
Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)
Does the Minister accept that the Government’s ill-conceived plan to regulate for a minimum alcohol price will have a devastating effect on west country cider farmers?
Mr Heath
The right hon. Gentleman appears not to know the procedure of the House. He is asking a supplementary question. I cannot sit down and ask my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State to stand up in my place—[Interruption.] Mr Speaker, I am sure that you will be able to advise the right hon. Gentleman on the procedures of the House at some time. I can say to him that we take the matter seriously, and I am sure that the Under-Secretary of State is taking the appropriate measures—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. For the avoidance of doubt, although I am not privy to the details of the exchange, it is absolutely correct to say that only one Minister can answer the question. Whether or not people like the answer is another matter.
Mr Speaker
I note the point about responsibility. There are quite a lot of hand gestures going on, but we must now—[Interruption.] Order. The Minister of State must calm himself. We must move on.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
8. What discussions he has had with the Welsh Government on measures to reduce flooding by changes in planting and drainage.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
I have regular contact with the Welsh Government but our discussions have not covered that specific issue. However, officials from DEFRA and the Environment Agency share experience and evidence of land management measures such as drainage and planting with colleagues in Wales.
Glyn Davies
The River Severn rises in Plynlimon in mid-Wales but causes most of its flood damage in England. The Montgomeryshire Wildlife Trust is doing magnificent work with its Plynlimon project, which benefits diversity as well as helping flood relief by holding back rainwater. Will my hon. Friend work closely with the Montgomeryshire Wildlife Trust and the Welsh Government to provide support that is commensurate with that benefit?
Mr Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman should ask a question; this is not a debate.
Richard Benyon
I am well aware of the importance of Plynlimon to the whole Severn estuary, and to houses and property on both sides of the border. We have to take an holistic view in flood management when cross-border issues need to be ironed out, and we are working to ensure that the new Natural Resources Body for Wales and the Environment Agency are working closely on this issue.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
9. What progress he has made in negotiations with the EU on a derogation from the ban on the import or manufacture of incandescent bulbs for those who suffer ill health as a result of exposure to low-energy lighting ahead of the review of legislation in 2014; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath)
I beg your pardon, Mr Speaker. I blame the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) for distracting me. Why not?
There are no provisions allowing the European Commission or individual member states to create exemptions from regulation 244/2009, which phases out incandescent bulbs. However, we are pressing to ensure that EU policy and legislation take full account of the potential health implications of artificial lighting. We have successfully ensured that provisions for people with light-sensitive health conditions were included in a new eco-design regulation that sets minimum standards for directional lighting and light-emitting diodes.
Sheila Gilmore
My constituents are pleased that the draft regulations for directional lighting acknowledge that there is a problem with health. The other regulations are due for review in 2014. Will the Minister confirm that he, along with other parts of the EU, will seek to achieve a change in 2014, so that the problem can be resolved?
Mr Heath
My Department and the Department of Health are working closely with the lighting industry, the Health Protection Agency, charities and patient groups such as the Spectrum Alliance—I understand that the hon. Lady has a connection with the Spectrum Alliance—on how to make information on appropriate lighting solutions available. We have had productive discussions with the Department of Health and the lighting industry to identify health care professionals who can assist us. We will ensure that we have a plan of action by early next year, ready for next September when the new eco-design regulations come into force.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
The European Commission has pledged further to investigate the link between artificial lighting and various health conditions. Will the Minister update the House on when that research will come forward?
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
10. What representations he has received on his Department’s response to the recent floods; and if he will make a statement.
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her letter on behalf of the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, making representations on my Department’s flood response. I will reply in due course. During my visits to Northampton, Exeter and Kennford, I have also had a number of useful representations from the people affected, emergency services and local councillors.
Miss McIntosh
I am grateful for that reply. A ministerial visit to North Yorkshire would be most welcome. We have experienced flooding for the second time since September. I would like to join the hon. Member for Wakefield (Mary Creagh) in what she said about drains. What has been a feature since 2007 is surface water flooding—clean water mixing with foul water, coming into people’s homes. The SUDS—sustainable urban draining systems—regulations need to be adopted as a matter of urgency, as 2014 is simply unacceptable. I think the British public expect DEFRA to act as a matter of urgency.
Mr Paterson
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her question. The Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon) visited York recently, and we fully take on board how people have been affected. The question of getting water away is very relevant, and the Environment Agency is quite clear that drainage channels have to be kept free for flow, but for the real emergencies such as those we have had, the priority has to be protection of life and serious damage to property. The question of the SUDS regulations is complicated, which is why we are intending to bring them in in 2014. I am happy to discuss that with my hon. Friend outside the Chamber.
Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)
One of the most pressing and important long-term responses to the challenge of flooding is the protection of those 200,000 home owners who will be left without insurance, leaving their homes unmortgageable and unsellable, if the Minister cannot get a deal. The Association of British Insurers has described discussions on flood insurance as “stalled”. Will the right hon. Gentleman be able to lay out calmly what he believes is the last acceptable date for a deal?
Mr Paterson
I would like to reassure the shadow Minister that the talks are not stalled. We have had detailed discussions on a regular basis with the ABI—before I came into office in September and since. I am not going to put a date on it, because we want to get to a system that improves on the current statement of principles. To repeat what I said earlier, we want something that is affordable and as comprehensive as possible but which is not a burden on the taxpayer. We intend to carry on these detailed negotiations, but I cannot conduct them in public.
Mr Speaker
May I remind the House that topical questions and answers to them should be brief? Perhaps we can do better in this part of the proceedings than we did in the first part.
Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson)
DEFRA is doing everything to seek to boost growth in the rural economy, improve the environment and safeguard the health of our plants and animals. I have this morning published our interim control plan for Chalara and the interim report of the expert taskforce on tree health and plant biosecurity, copies of which can be found in the Library. Our recent focus has, of course, been on the floods and the efforts to protect people’s lives, homes and businesses. I would like to place on record my condolences to those who have lost loved ones and my praise for the response of the emergency services, Government agencies and local authorities.
Stephen Barclay
Given the challenging weather conditions experienced by farmers this year and the shocking performance of the Rural Payments Agency under the last Government, can my right hon. Friend reassure me that there will be no unnecessary delays regarding single farm payments?
Mr Paterson
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for the chance to put straight the current record. He is right that the performance of the RPA was a real failure in previous years. As of 4 December, however, 96,037 customers with claims or 92.3% had been paid £1.4 billion. That is comfortably the RPA’s best ever performance and we will see it deliver its December payment targets by the end of this week, providing certainty to farmers at a very difficult time.
Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)
T2. There has been a number of instances in Liverpool, Walton of dogs attacking other animals and persons. Police dog sections have been clamping down on irresponsible owners in our parks, but current legislation offers zero protection against dog attacks on private property. Can the Minister tell me when he expects the law to be extended and whether this will be announced in the next Queen’s Speech?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
As the hon. Gentleman will know, a Home Office measure has been proposed to extend our controls to private property. I cannot second-guess the next Queen’s Speech, but I can agree to regular consultations with the hon. Gentleman.
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)
T3. This year marks the 40th anniversary of the Woodland Trust, known as Coed Cadw in Wales. As the Minister will know, over those 40 years some 16 million trees have been planted, but they are now facing a real challenge in the form of ash dieback. What steps is the Minister taking to work with the trust to overcome the problem?
Mr Paterson
I pay tribute to the Woodland Trust and its work, and to its 400,000 members, some of whom I enjoyed meeting at a reception in the House a couple of weeks ago. Today I am publishing an interim plan for controlling Chalara fraxinea, the pathogen that causes ash dieback, which sets out actions to build on existing participation in the process of identifying threats to tree health. That includes the provision of funds for a pilot project to develop a tree health early-warning system, involving volunteer groups such as the Woodland Trust, and the establishment of a “plant health network” of trained people to support official surveillance of Chalara and other pests. The Woodland Trust will play a very important role in that.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
T8. Will the Minister join me in congratulating the Shark Alliance on its successful campaign against shark finning, and on closing the loophole in the European Union shark-finning ban? Will the Government now work to secure a complete ban on shark finning? As a first step, will they focus on securing international trade safeguards for vulnerable shark and ray species under the convention on international trade in endangered species when its signatories next meet in March?
Richard Benyon
The hon. Lady is looking at the Shark Trust’s greatest fan: it has done wonderful work. I am delighted about the recent vote in the European Parliament, and I hope that the hon. Lady is pleased that the Government have been at the forefront of this campaign. We have been leading the way in Europe, and we will now lead the way internationally.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
T4. I congratulate the Secretary of State on the work that he is doing in negotiating reforms of the common agricultural policy. Does he share my concern about potential delays owing to lack of agreement on the budget, and will he assure the House that farmers will have enough time to prepare for the next round of CAP reforms?
Mr Paterson
When I attended a meeting of the Agriculture Council last week, I made clear to my 26 colleagues that if we were not going to meet the 2014 deadline we should admit it now, and that all existing arrangements—such as the special arrangement on modulation—should continue until the settlement date, which may be 2015 or 2016.
Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)
Unless every DEFRA Minister with a farm in his constituency is now disqualified from answering a farming question, will one of them now try to answer my question about the devastating impact of the Government’s proposed minimum alcohol price on the cider industry?
Richard Benyon
I shall be delighted to answer the right hon. Gentleman’s question about the cider industry. My hon. Friend the Minister of State has been told that he cannot speak on the issue because of the preponderance of cider farmers in his constituency, but I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that we are working on the issue with the Department of Health and the Home Office. We will raise with those Departments any instances in which the measure would have a pernicious effect on the rural community, and exceptions may be forthcoming.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
Will the Secretary of State press the European Union harder to open its markets to developing countries, especially in relation to the common agricultural policy?
Mr Paterson
As my hon. Friend knows, I am in favour of free trade in all products, because opening up markets gives real opportunity to our own farmers who want to export in the other direction.
Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
Despite new flood defences along the River Trent, which provided great reassurance during the recent floods, many of my constituents cannot obtain affordable insurance for their homes. I listened carefully to the Secretary of State’s earlier answer about the floods, but when will he be able to reassure those people that they will be able to secure insurance in the future?
Mr Paterson
I think I made it clear to the hon. Member for Luton South (Gavin Shuker) that we want to get this right, but I am not going to place an artificial deadline on it. All of us, including the hon. Lady’s party, knew that the current arrangements would end in 2013. I repeat that we want to improve on those arrangements, and that it does not help when people make out, in the middle of negotiations, that the talks are foundering or in trouble. We are working very closely with the insurers, and we intend to secure a good deal for those whose houses are at risk of flooding.
Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)
T5. The export of lamb and beef is a vital part of the Welsh agriculture industry. Is the Secretary of State making any progress in promoting British exports?
Mr Paterson
I recently visited China and Hong Kong, and celebrated a tremendous launch in Hong Kong of the exporting of beef on the bone. Last year we celebrated record food exports worth £18 billion, and thanks to the Prime Minister’s intervention, the beef export market has been opened up in Russia. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s Pembrokeshire neighbours at Trioni Ltd, who are looking forward to selling organic milk to the Chinese.
Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)
What is more important to the Secretary of State: appeasing the Treasury or securing affordable, accessible flood-risk insurance for those 200,000 homes and businesses in flood-risk areas?
Mr Paterson
I would like to reassure the hon. Gentleman—this is about the fourth or fifth time during these questions—that we are looking for a good, long-term deal that gives reassurance to his constituents who are worried about flooding, that is as comprehensive as possible and that is satisfactory to the taxpayer. We are working extremely closely with colleagues in the Treasury and the Cabinet Office, and we will come to a better arrangement than his Government left behind.
Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)
T6. Given the growing incidence of plant disease across the globe and the increasingly global nature of trade, what plans does the Minister have to address the long-term threat of disease to our plants and trees?
The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath)
On 30 October, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State asked DEFRA’s chief scientific adviser to convene an independent expert taskforce on tree health and plant biosecurity to review the current arrangements and make recommendations to address long-term tree and plant disease risk. Today, the taskforce published its interim report and made a number of recommendations on measures to address the increasing threat to the health of our plants and trees. They included strengthening our approach to risk assessment, improving biosecurity and clarifying governance.
Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)
The Forestry Commission website indicates that there is an ash dieback infection in a tree in the north of my constituency, yet the Forestry Commission refuses to identify the location of the tree. Given that the Forestry Commission manages only a certain proportion of our trees, what about the danger to the other remaining trees? Why is there such secrecy in the Forestry Commission about revealing the identity of this infected tree?
Mr Heath
Let us just be clear for the benefit of the hon. Gentleman: if the infected tree is mature, as we are not in the period of sporulation there is no danger to surrounding trees, certainly not at the moment. The advice from the scientific advisers is that it is better to leave mature trees in situ than to fell them. The contrary advice applies to new planting saplings.
Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)
T7. The people of Halberton and the Environment Agency worked very well when the damage to the canal happened, preventing flooding from occurring throughout the village. However, I want to see better management of our waterways, through farmers and local communities managing water and helping to dredge the rivers, because we are not doing enough to stop the flooding.
Richard Benyon
I assure my hon. Friend that we learn lessons from every flooding incident. Although we have implemented Pitt and the other aspects that came from recent floods, we are looking closely at issues such as dredging. I know that that is a concern in his constituency, as it is in Somerset and other places where the belief is that water is held on the ground for too long.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
Will the Government support the United States and Russia in seeking an effective ban on the trade in polar bear hides at the forthcoming CITES—convention on international trade in endangered species—conference?
Richard Benyon
I met the US Government’s director with responsibility for fish and wildlife yesterday and heard the points that he was making. We are also listening to other countries that take a contrary view. We take our CITES responsibility seriously and we are looking into this issue, so I will consult the hon. Gentleman.
Ian Swales (Redcar) (LD)
T9. Given lurid reports on the treatment of racing greyhounds, such as that they are being administered class A drugs, what assessment has the Minister made of the industry’s self-regulation regime, and will he make a statement?
Mr Heath
Apart from that self-regulation, greyhounds are protected under the Animal Welfare Act 2006 and racing greyhounds are also protected through the Welfare of Racing Greyhounds Regulations 2010, which provide local authorities with powers to inspect independent greyhound tracks and to issue licences, as appropriate. If my hon. Friend has particular concerns that he would like to share with me, I would be very happy to meet him to see whether there is more we can do.
Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)
1. What recent representations the Church Commissioners have received on the ordination of women as bishops.
Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)
3. What recent progress has been made in finding a way forward on the issue of women bishops which maintains the unity of the Church.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
6. If he will discuss with the Government bringing forward legislative proposals to enable women priests to be consecrated as bishops.
The Second Church Estates Commissioner (Sir Tony Baldry)
Following the statement I made on 22 November, the Archbishops Council has met and concluded that a legislative process to admit women to the episcopate needs to be restarted at the next meeting of the General Synod. It was also agreed that the Church of England needed to resolve this matter through its own process as a matter of urgency. The House of Bishops is meeting early next week and has been urged by the Archbishops Council to put in place a clear process for discussions in the new year to inform the decisions that will need to be taken on the shape of the new legislation.
It may be for the convenience of Members of this House to know that they and Members of another place will have the opportunity to discuss these matters further at the meeting that I have arranged with the next Archbishop of Canterbury, the current Bishop of Durham, next Thursday at 9.30 in the Moses Room in the House of Lords.
Helen Goodman
I am very grateful for that full answer. When I was in church on Sunday, of the 14 people sitting in front of me 13 were women. I think all Members of this House understand how urgent the question is. If fresh legislation is to be passed by the current Synod, it is very important that members of the Church can lobby Synod in a proper way. The Church has published how members of Synod voted but not indicated to which dioceses they belong. Could that also be put up on the website so that people can lobby intelligently?
Sir Tony Baldry
I see absolutely no reason why that information should not be made available and I will ensure that it is. The process should be perfectly transparent and every member of Synod should be accountable for how they voted.
Laura Sandys
As we know, the Church has been skirting around the issue for many years. According to the timetable my hon. Friend has presented, when will the vote come back to Synod to be reconsidered?
Sir Tony Baldry
I hope that, if we can crack on with fresh legislation being presented to the Synod in July, the matter can be eventually resolved by the finish of this Synod in 2015.
Miss McIntosh
May I congratulate my hon. Friend on the work he is doing? I hope that the message will go out from the House today to the Synod that we are waiting for its members to make legislation or else we stand prepared to introduce legislation of our own within that time frame.
Sir Tony Baldry
The clear message from Parliament and the country as a whole to the Church was that this issue cannot be parked. It has to be resolved as speedily as possible and I know that the next Archbishop of Canterbury fully and wholly endorses that approach. I am sure he will make that very clear when he meets colleagues next Thursday.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
It is 46 years, almost to the day, since I raised in a debate the difficulties faced by those with colour in trying to get jobs—before the Race Relations Act 1976 was passed. I did not believe that nearly half a century later I would be on my feet protesting against discrimination against women. Is it not absolutely essential that there should be the utmost sustained parliamentary pressure to change a situation in which women are discriminated against in such a blatant manner in the Church?
Sir Tony Baldry
I entirely agree. Everyone in the Church of England needs to understand that, so far as Parliament and the wider community are concerned, this issue is increasingly seen as the Church of England discriminating against women. That is fundamentally wrong and fundamentally bad for the image and work of the Church.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that we must tread with extreme caution in trying to tell the Church of England how to run its own affairs? It is nearly 100 years since this Parliament has interfered with the Church’s affairs—
Sir Tony Baldry
I do not think that anyone is telling the Church of England what to do. I have a very privileged position in this House; I think I am the only person other than Ministers who has the right to answer questions—[Interruption.] Apart from my hon. Friend the Member for South West Devon (Mr Streeter), of course. I do apologise. Very few of us have the right to answer questions. There are 26 bishops—24 bishops and two archbishops—in the House of Lords as a benefit of Establishment. Those are privileges and this House is therefore entitled to give good advice to the Church of England on how the Church should be run if it is to continue to have those privileges.
Mr Speaker
I do not want to intrude on any discussion about the hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for South West Devon (Mr Streeter), but I think we can all agree that the Second Church Estates Commissioner, the hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) is the representative of a rarefied breed.
Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)
2. What plans the Church of England has to make the House of Laity more representative of members of the Church.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
4. What discussions the Church Commissioners have held on the issue of women bishops since the General Synod's vote of 20 November 2012; and what plans the Church has to make the House of Laity more representative of local opinion in dioceses and parishes.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
5. By what process reform of the General Synod could be achieved.
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)
8. What steps the Church Commissioners could take to allow the majority view of the General Synod to be enacted with regard to the appointment of women bishops.
The Second Church Estates Commissioner
The membership of deanery synods has constituted the electorate for the House of Laity since the General Synod was created in 1970. The review of synodical government chaired by Lord Bridge of Harwich recommended in 1977 that deanery synods should be abolished and that the lay members of diocesan synods and General Synods should be chosen by parish representatives, each parish to have one for every 50 people on the electoral roll. The General Synod decided, however, to retain deanery synods. In July 2011 the Synod decided to ask for alternatives to the present electoral system to be further explored. The review group’s report is due to come to the General Synod this coming year.
Mr Bradshaw
Does not the complete failure of the House of Laity in the General Synod to reflect the overwhelming support in the diocesan synods for women bishops show that there is something deeply wrong with the system? We cannot wait for a new synod in 2015 for this to be resolved. I have to tell my hon. Friend that it must be resolved in months, not years, and if that means a single clause Measure and facing down the conservative evangelicals, as we in the Labour party faced down the militants in the 1980s, so be it.
Sir Tony Baldry
On the women bishop’s Measure, the Church of England has to get on with it. I am sure that the Archbishop of Canterbury-designate will be able to reassure colleagues next week that it is getting on with it. So far as the format of General Synod is concerned, as I have said to the House on a number of occasions, it is very difficult, if not impossible, to explain how 42 out of 44 dioceses voted for women bishops, yet the motion failed in General Synod. I think that the next Archbishop of Canterbury will want to focus on growth in the Church, and if one wants to focus on growth, one needs to make sure that everyone feels involved. I hope, personally, that in due course we will be able to move to a system in which every member of the Church who is on an electoral roll has a vote for those who go to General Synod. That seems to be a straightforward system.
Diana Johnson
If an emergency arises that the country has to deal with, the House of Commons and the other place have the power to expedite legislation and deal with it quickly. Is there no power within the structures of the Church of England to expedite matters when there is an emergency? I think the issue is an emergency for the Church of England.
Sir Tony Baldry
I hope the hon. Lady will be able to be present next Thursday for the meeting with the Archbishop of Canterbury-designate. He, I am sure, will explain to her that the Church of England will expedite the issue as speedily as possible. At the start of his ministry I think that he will be very conscious that it will not be possible for the Church of England to get on to other matters such as growth and mission until we have resolved the issue of consecrating women to the episcopate.
Mr Nuttall
In the more than 40 years since the General Synod became the governing body of the Church of England, whether one looks at the number of churches, the number of clergy or the number in the congregation, by any measure it has presided over a period of decline. Does my hon. Friend agree that however difficult the process might be, there is now a very urgent need for reform?
Sir Tony Baldry
I agree with my hon. Friend. I am sure that Justin Welby, as the Archbishop of Canterbury-designate, will make it clear that he sees it as his ministry as Archbishop of Canterbury to rebuild the Church. We have a once in a generation opportunity to start to grow the Church again. One in three parishes is growing. We need to work out how they are growing, and try to ensure that other parishes can grow similarly, if we are to have a Church of England which is truly a national Church speaking for the whole nation.
Michael Fabricant
I agree with everything the previous three questioners said and think that my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) gave comprehensive answers, so I have nothing to add.
Mr Speaker
I hope that the moment will be recorded; it is a first, certainly for the hon. Gentleman.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
I, however, have something to add. The Second Church Estates Commissioner’s last point was absolutely right: this is not a sect we are dealing with. I say that to the hon. Member for Wellingborough (Mr Bone), whose assessment of our role in relation to the Church is completely and utterly wrong. The Church of England is established by law. We can turn down any changes to liturgy that it wants to make, for example. Is it not time we changed by law the system whereby people are elected to the Synod so that it is more representative and looks more like a national Church?
Sir Tony Baldry
I am quite sure that the review that is taking place into the way people are elected to General Synod will try to ensure the greatest opportunity for people in the Church to have a vote and feel that they are represented. Parliament, for example, decided long ago that all of us—everyone in every parish—have a vote in elections for church wardens. One would think that at the very least in elections to General Synod everyone on a church electoral roll should have a vote.
Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)
I stand as someone who failed twice to get elected to Synod—for Southwark—for being too right wing, and I could not do it in London for being too left wing. Should we not recognise that most of the members of Laity at Synod voted for women bishops, and should we not let women be ordained as bishops and trust the bishops to make arrangements in their diocese that are suitable?
Sir Tony Baldry
That was a loss for both the diocese of Southwark and General Synod, because my hon. Friend would have made a great addition. He makes a really important point: the Church of England is an episcopal-led Church. The Archbishop of Canterbury, the Archbishop of Canterbury-designate and a number of bishops made powerful speeches in General Synod on why it was appropriate and right for there to be women bishops, and I hope that the broader Church will now listen to what the bishops are saying.
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
7. What the policy of the Church is when there is a sustained fall in the number of weddings in a parish.
The Second Church Estates Commissioner
Church of England marriages increased by 4% in 2010. The increase coincided with a national project by the Church to promote and encourage church weddings and communicate new rights to be married in church where people and their families have a qualifying connection.
Andrew Selous
I am delighted to hear about the increase in 2010, but I wonder whether my hon. Friend is aware that the number of marriages in 2009 was the lowest since records began in 1900. In fact, the number of weddings has decreased in England and Wales from 426,000 in 1972 to 232,000. Some clergy do terribly well in increasing the number of marriages, only to see it fall back under their successors. Does my hon. Friend think that bishops could take a slightly closer interest in that, to try to encourage the good work done by some clergy?
Sir Tony Baldry
We should all take an interest in that. Everyone in the Church of England wants to attract more weddings in church. Weddings are an important part of Church life. We want to build awareness of the Church’s enthusiasm for marriage. Every member of the clergy would want to care for couples and support them once they have been married in church, and hopefully those couples will want to stick with the church afterwards.
Mr Speaker
I would not want the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) to feel socially excluded, so we will hear from her.
The hon. Member for South West Devon, representing the Speaker's Committee on the Electoral Commission was asked—
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
9. What steps the Electoral Commission is taking to prepare for the introduction of individual electoral registration.
Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon)
The Electoral Commission has supported the introduction of individual electoral registration since 2003. It is taking a number of steps to prepare for this important chance. Subject to the successful passage of the Electoral Registration and Administration Bill, the commission will be responsible for developing guidance and setting performance standards for electoral registration officers, conducting research into the equity and completeness of the electoral registers and planning national public awareness campaigns to support the transition.
Fiona Mactaggart
Given the admission by Republican Senators and officials in the US that their election law changes were designed to suppress minority and Democrat votes, how can we be sure that individual registration in Britain does not have the same effect?
Mr Streeter
The hon. Lady raises an important point. We all want to increase the number of people who register to vote in elections. I remind her that this measure was introduced by her own party when in government. The Electoral Commission is confident that if the Government follow its advice there is no reason at all why the number of electors registered for the 2015 general election should not be at a very high level.
Business of the House
(12 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)
Will the Leader of the House give us the business for next week?
The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew Lansley)
The business for next week will be as follows:
Monday 10 December—Motion to approve a money resolution relating to the Financial Services Bill, followed by a motion to approve a Ways and Means resolution relating to the Financial Services Bill, followed by consideration of Lords amendments to the Financial Services Bill.
Tuesday 11 December—General debate on the economy.
Wednesday 12 December—Opposition Day [12th allotted day] [first part]. There will be a debate on an Opposition motion, subject to be announced, followed by general debate on the Church of England Synod vote on women bishops. The subject for this debate was nominated by the Backbench Business Committee.
Thursday 13 December—Motions relating to standards and privileges, followed by general debate on live animal exports and animal welfare. The subject for this debate was nominated by the Backbench Business Committee.
The provisional business for the following week will include:
Monday 17 December—Remaining stages of the Growth and Infrastructure Bill.
I should also like to inform the House that the business in Westminster Hall for 20 December will be:
Thursday 20 December—Debate on the interdepartmental ministerial group report on human trafficking.
Ms Eagle
I thank the Leader of the House for announcing the business.
I have previously asked the predecessor of the Leader of the House about equal marriage legislation. Every piece of equality legislation since the decriminalisation of homosexuality was passed by the previous Labour Government. We fully support plans to introduce equal marriage. Couples planning their future need certainty from the Government, not prevarication. The Government’s legislative timetable is not exactly packed, so will the Leader of the House commit to bringing forward legislation in this Session?
We are grateful to the Leader of the House for arranging a debate on the Leveson report earlier this week. I congratulate Lord Justice Leveson on his report and his careful consideration of the evidence. The status quo is unacceptable; the victims of press intrusion deserve better. We welcome cross-party talks on how to implement the report, but there are clear divisions on the report between us and Conservative Front Benchers. Will the right hon. Gentleman therefore commit to making available Government time for a vote on the proposals and, if there is a majority, time for the legislation that would follow?
Will the right hon. Gentleman join me in welcoming to the House the new Labour Members, my hon. Friends the Members for Rotherham (Sarah Champion), for Middlesbrough (Andy McDonald) and for Croydon North (Steve Reed)? I have been looking at by-election history. In 2008, there was a by-election in Henley in which the then governing party came fifth. At the time, the leader of the Liberal Democrats said that showed that Labour was “finished”. In the Rotherham by-election, the Liberal Democrats managed to scrape into eighth place, behind Labour, the UK Independence party, the British National party, Respect, the Conservatives, the English Democrats and a local vicar. Can the Leader of the House say whether the Deputy Prime Minister will be making a statement on the outlook for his party after this debacle?
Yesterday we found out the full scale of the Government’s economic failure. The Prime Minister promised to balance the books by 2015, but he has broken that promise. The Chancellor promised to cut borrowing, but borrowing and debt figures have been revised up this year and for future years. The Government promised to grow the economy, but yesterday the Office for Budget Responsibility said that the economy would contract this year. The part-time Chancellor might try 4G Del Boy economics to hide his failure, but he cannot hide the truth. According to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, this is the worst economic outlook since the 1920s. This is the consequence of a Government who got all the big decisions wrong. In October 2010, the Chancellor said:
“What investor is going to come to the UK when they fear a downgrade of our credit rating?”
He then claimed that the rating was safe in his hands, but this morning it is clear that the Chancellor’s economic failure has put his prized triple A rating at risk.
The measures announced in yesterday’s autumn statement will, according to the Treasury’s own figures, hit the poorest half of the country hardest. Those in work on modest earnings are paying the bill for this Government’s mismanagement of the economy, and at the same time the Government are giving a £100,000-a-year tax cut to the richest 8,000 people. How is that fair? We had an explanation yesterday in a Liberal Democrat briefing :
“The only tax cuts the Tories support are ones for the very rich”.
Helpful clarification was then offered by the Business Secretary, who said:
“We have a different view to the Conservatives…on fairness”.
Does the Leader of the House not think that a debate on fairness would give the Liberal Democrats the opportunity to remind themselves that they actually voted to give a tax cut to the richest 1%, and will he allow time for such a debate?
After yesterday’s autumn statement, we know that the Government are borrowing £212 billion more than expected, that the benefit bill is £13 billion higher, that growth forecasts have been cut this year, next year and for every year until 2016, and that the Government have failed the only economic tests they set themselves. This is the price of economic failure. For all the Chancellor’s sleight of hand yesterday, the Treasury’s own figures reveal that the economy has not grown, that borrowing is up, that growth will be less, that spending will be cut and that unemployment will go up. This is the record of a Government who have made the wrong choices. This is the consequence of an economic strategy that is not working.
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to the shadow Leader of the House for her response to my statement.
There is no prevarication whatsoever on equal marriage. We have been very clear that, following the consultation, my right hon. Friend the Minister for Women and Equalities will respond before Christmas, and indeed she will. I look forward to that and I hope that it will demonstrate our further determination to secure equal marriage, which was not achieved under a Labour Government, but can now be achieved under a coalition Government.
I am grateful for what the hon. Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle) said about a debate on Leveson. It reminded me that when we discussed House business this time last week, the Leveson report had not been published. Doesn’t time fly when you’re having fun? I say to the hon. Lady that it is a bit premature to discuss the nature of future business of the House in relation to the Leveson report while my right hon. Friends, and indeed those on her own Front Bench, are engaged in discussions among themselves and with the newspaper editors, who have taken away from the Prime Minister and others the message that they must come up with plans that meet the Leveson principles and do so rapidly. We will hear more about that, I hope, later today.
I will indeed take this opportunity to welcome the new Members of the House. The hon. Lady kindly wrapped that question with a reference to the 2008 Henley by-election. Ever since that day, the House has been graced with the presence of my parliamentary private secretary. If the new Members do half as well as my hon. Friend the Member for Henley (John Howell) has done, they will do very well indeed.
Most of what the hon. Lady had to say was about the autumn statement. She used it as an opportunity to try to restore the credibility of the Opposition’s Front Benchers after the lamentable failure of the shadow Chancellor yesterday, who had no idea what he wanted to say and was utterly confused. The truth of the matter is that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer was able not only to maintain this country’s credibility in his determination to reduce the deficit—the deficit is coming down—but to say that inflation has come down, that we are making considerable strides forward in many of the emerging markets and that employment has been rising. There are 1.2 million more jobs in the private sector, and the Office for Budget Responsibility says that at least two new jobs will be created in the private sector for every job that is lost in the public sector as a consequence of the inescapable necessity to control borrowing.
I heard nothing from the hon. Lady about how the Labour party would control borrowing. Where would the Labour party’s deficit reduction plan come from? We hear nothing about that. She talked about fairness and taxes for the richest, but she will have noticed that the Chancellor’s autumn statement set out an intention to increase taxation of the richest. It is clear from the distributional consequences of the autumn statement that those with the broadest shoulders are bearing the biggest burdens. We have not heard from the Opposition whether they would go back to the 50p rate if they were ever back in government. We just do not know.
Under the coalition Government, the personal tax allowance will have gone from £6,475 to £9,440 under the plans announced by the Chancellor—within touching distance of a £10,000 personal tax allowance. Some 24 million taxpayers and their families will benefit from that and we are taking 2 million people out of tax altogether. Somebody working full time on a minimum wage will have seen their tax bill more than halve. When the hon. Lady talks about fairness, I think that we should talk about that kind of fairness too.
I did not hear from the hon. Lady, on a practical question about the business of the House, whether the Opposition will vote for or against the welfare uprating Bill when it comes before the House. [Interruption.] She says from a sedentary position that we will have to wait and see. It is just like yesterday. The shadow Chancellor and the hon. Lady do not have a clue what they would do.
Mr Speaker
Order. As usual, a great many right hon. and hon. Members are seeking to catch my eye. I remind the House that there are two further statements to follow and, thereafter, two important debates under the auspices of the Backbench Business Committee. If I am to get anywhere near accommodating the level of interest, brevity from Front and Back Benchers alike will be imperative.
Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)
Can the Chancellor come to the Dispatch Box and tell the House what consideration he has given to the impact of the rise in the pensionable age on those in receipt of permanent health insurance payments under schemes that were designed to end at the current retirement age?
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. We are having a debate on the economy next Tuesday, which will present an opportunity to discuss many of the issues that have arisen from the autumn statement. I will certainly draw the attention of Treasury Ministers to this matter. It is worth noting that, not least because of the support that we are giving to the national health service, the number of people in this country who have private health insurance has gone down.
John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)
The Leader of the House may be aware that the London fire authority is looking at a plan to shut 17 fire stations across the capital, which includes cutting 50% of the fire cover in my constituency, which has some of the poorest wards in London. This is creating alarm across all parts of the House. Is it possible for the relevant Minister to give a statement or to have a short debate?
Mr Lansley
I hope that the hon. Gentleman will forgive me for not remembering the precise date, but an Adjournment debate was initiated by the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) on fire stations and the fire and rescue authority. These are matters for the fire and rescue authority and the Mayor of London, but I do recall that Ministers responded to the debate. If there is anything to be added since it took place, I will ask Ministers to correspond with him.
Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)
Last week, Plymouth and Cornwall were cut off by rail due to flooding and landslips. I welcome yesterday’s announcement by the Chancellor that he will spend £5 billion on investing in our infrastructure and that part of the A30 in Cornwall will be dualled. Please can we have a wider debate on infrastructure in the south-west to discuss the railway line from Exeter to Plymouth, improvements to the A38 and the potential dualling of the A303?
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Perhaps he would consider seeking an Adjournment debate on economic performance and infrastructure improvements in the south-west to see how they are linked. Having lived in Exeter for four years, I have some sympathy with him. I remember how the A303 was back in those days. It is better now than it was then, but there are still a few bottlenecks.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
The Leader of the House will know that in the fog of gloom and misery that was yesterday’s autumn statement, some of us were expecting the Chancellor to make just a little announcement about how he was going to go after the big multinational companies that do not pay any tax—Google, coffee giants and water companies—and get some money for all those years that they have paid nothing. Why was there no mention of going after these people who take the profits but do not put anything back into their communities?
Mr Lansley
I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman was listening to the Chancellor yesterday. As my right hon. Friend set out, not only do the Government intend to introduce a general anti-abuse rule for the first time, but as a consequence of measures already being taken to tackle evasion and avoidance, we will bring in something like £7 billion more a year in tax revenue than under the previous Government.
Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)
Will the Leader of the House make time for a short debate to question the lack of any visible merit—and the outrageous lack of sensitivity—in the NHS in Somerset granting its management a 5% pay rise, and one individual a 6% pay rise, when the majority of front-line staff have to accept a pay freeze?
Mr Lansley
I cannot promise my hon. Friend a debate on that subject. She may recall that regional pay was the subject of an Opposition day debate and a debate initiated by the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) in Westminster Hall. From what was announced yesterday it is transparent that the Government are not proposing regional pay, and that is in line with evidence I gave to the NHS pay review body earlier in the year as Secretary of State for Health. We are pursing the path of using flexibility provided by “Agenda for Change”. I take my hon. Friend’s point, however, and if such pay restraint is applied to NHS staff generally, it should apply equally to management.
Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)
On 10 July, the then Minister for Disabled People slipped out a written statement on Remploy and had to be dragged to the House. This morning, the current Minister for Disabled People, the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey), sneaked out another statement on Remploy, announcing 875 potential redundancies—[Interruption.] The Minister might well be getting briefed as he sits there. As you will appreciate, Mr Speaker, written ministerial statements are intended to be issued on non-controversial and straightforward matters, but this issue is neither of those things. Does the Leader of the House endorse such practice by the Minister for Disabled People, and will he ask her to come to the House next week to answer questions on that statement? I say to him: please do not tell me that I can address those issues at Work and Pensions questions on Monday. The decision about Remploy requires full scrutiny.
Mr Lansley
I am sorry, but my hon. Friend the Minister for Disabled People has informed the House perfectly well and properly through a written ministerial statement. The right hon. Lady is coming awfully close to challenging the view of the Speaker on whether an urgent question would be justified.
Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)
Last week, the Government announced that they will bring forward a facility for capping interest on payday loans. However, such loans are only one part of the high-cost sub-prime sector. May we have a debate on the entire high-cost sector, and on the problems within it and ways to solve them sustainably?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend will recall that on Third Reading of the Financial Services Bill in another place, the Government tabled an amendment to create a power that would limit agreements that impose unacceptable charges, including interest on lenders; it would make contravention of those agreements unenforceable, which is a strong power. The Bill will return to this House and we will have the opportunity to consider the Lords amendments on Monday.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Numerous members of the Patriotic March movement in Colombia have been murdered over the past few months. Will the Leader of the House agree to a debate or statement on the support that the British Government is offering to the Colombian Government to ensure safety for all as peace talks continue?
Mr Lansley
I cannot immediately offer the prospect of time for debate. If I recall correctly, such issues were touched upon on Tuesday during Foreign and Commonwealth Office questions. Other Members will share the hon. Gentleman’s concern about this matter, and he and others may look to secure an Adjournment debate, or something of that kind, to enable their views to be aired.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
Many hon. Members are concerned about the extent of cuts to the regular battalions under Army 2020, including the 2nd Battalion, Royal Regiment of Fusiliers, and the ability of the Territorial Army to fill the gap. Will the Leader of the House arrange for a statement so that the House can be updated on the progress of the TA plans?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend will recall that the Secretary of State for Defence recently made a statement on the reserve forces. There is a debate this afternoon on defence personnel, in which I encourage my hon. Friend further to pursue those questions. He will know from our exchanges that Ministers have completely understood the points that he and my hon. Friends have made on the 2nd Battalion, Royal Regiment of Fusiliers. Ministers are approaching Army 2020 in a positive way, despite the necessity to make many difficult decisions.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
May we have a debate on maternity pay? In the week when we had the happy news from the Duke and Duchess of Cambridge, we did not hear the unhappy news yesterday from the Chancellor that he is imposing a mummy tax in the form of a real-terms cut in maternity pay. Was it not slippery not to include that in the statement, if not actually treasonous?
Mr Lansley
The Chancellor made the context perfectly clear in his autumn statement. Working-age benefits have risen by 20% over five years, but average earnings have risen by only 10%. It is therefore necessary to consider that the increase in those working-age benefits should be limited—to, he proposed, 1%. I cannot quite tell from the hon. Gentleman’s question whether he plans to support or oppose that.
Kris Hopkins (Keighley) (Con)
The Leader of the House might be aware that Airedale general hospital in my constituency has been named as one of two runners-up in the Dr Foster hospital guide as a result of low mortality and its high clinical efficiency rating in the past 12 months. May we have a statement on high-performance hospitals, so that the Health Secretary can join me in congratulating the chief executive, Bridget Fletcher, and her staff on winning such an accolade?
Mr Lansley
I am happy to join my hon. Friend in congratulating the chief executive and her staff at Airedale general NHS foundation trust, which I had the privilege and pleasure of visiting several years ago—it is a fine hospital. It has a high reputation not only locally, but nationally.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
According to the same guide, there has been an increase of 13% and 17% over time in the deaths of my constituents. Given the difficulties outlined by my right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) on the death of Owen Roberts, may we have an urgent debate on why £3 billion has been taken out of the NHS and not used for front-line services?
Mr Lansley
I am not quite sure what the hon. Lady is saying. Hon. Members listened to the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley yesterday at Prime Minister’s questions and had the utmost sympathy with her circumstances. That is precisely why Members on both sides of the House are determined to support the leaders of the nursing profession in improving the quality of care and the care and compassion with which patients are treated—they should always be treated with dignity and respect. Frankly, that is not about resources. Resources are rising in the NHS, with the exception of the NHS in Wales, where there is an 8% real-terms cut. The hon. Lady is talking about England, but she bracketed England and Wales together. In Wales, the NHS budget is being cut; in England, the NHS budget is being increased.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
Given that thousands of entrepreneurs, business people and investors have returned to this country since the top rate of tax was reduced from 50p in the pound to 45p, may we have a debate on what impact reducing the top rate to the higher rate of 40p in the pound would have, and how many more thousands of people will return to this country?
Mr Lansley
The Chancellor has made the right judgment in recognising that, in the year after the introduction of the 50p rate, the number of people reporting income of more than £1 million people halved, and the tax revenue from the richest went down by £7 billion. One must make a judgment. We cannot keep reducing the top rate of tax and hope continually to increase revenue, but it is important to support entrepreneurship and wealth creators. That is one reason why the further reduction in corporation tax by April 2014 to 21% will help put us in a very competitive position in the global race.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
As the House is not sitting tomorrow, may I take the opportunity to wish you, Mr Speaker, and Mrs Bercow a very happy 10th wedding anniversary?
Keith Vaz
There will be no Division on that.
On the subject of families, can I ask the Leader of the House about the Succession to the Crown Bill? As he knows, I introduced a ten-minute rule Bill on this last year. The Deputy Prime Minister chooses to use his own draftsmen to put the Succession to the Crown Bill through the House. Does the Leader of the House have a timetable for us, because he keeps telling us it will be introduced shortly? It is important that this is done before the royal baby is born.
Mr Lansley
Can I put in my own bid to be creep of the day? It is of course the seventh anniversary of the Prime Minister’s taking up leadership of the Conservative party, so it is a chance to congratulate him too—I know which side my bread is buttered.
On the right hon. Gentleman’s question, synchronicity being what it is—[Interruption.] It is always a pleasure to have the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) here. We were unable to proceed with the Succession to the Crown Bill until all the realms of which Her Majesty is Head of State signified consent. I believe that that happened on Monday, before the Duchess of Cambridge was admitted to hospital and an announcement was made, and we are now in a position to introduce the Bill shortly.
Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend share my disgust with Labour councillors on Nuneaton and Bedworth borough council who have procured political Christmas cards at the taxpayer-subsidised cost of £8 for 2,000? Can we have a debate on protecting the taxpayer against subsiding political campaigning?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Members of this House are happy to send Christmas cards to their constituents and others at their own expense. I do not see why councillors should not do the same.
Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)
Yesterday, the Secretary of State for Education came to the Select Committee on Education to answer questions on his plans to replace GCSEs. However, he did not answer questions. I do not mean that he avoided them, evaded them or gave non-answers—he point blank refused to answer questions from the Conservative Chair of the Committee and other Members. Given that the parliamentary role of the Education Committee is to scrutinise the Department for Education, is that not contempt of Parliament, and can we have a statement?
Mr Lansley
As I understand it, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State was perfectly happy to answer questions on matters for which he is responsible. He was not willing to answer questions relating to the views of Ofqual, as it is an independent regulator. I think that is perfectly fair.
Mr Speaker
If there were an intention to raise the matter of a possible contempt it would have to be done formally through the Standards and Privileges Committee, so we will not dwell on that now. I simply mention that, and I thank the Leader of the House for what he has said.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
Last week, the Prime Minister visited Gloucester to see at first hand the work of the unique tri-service centre, managing the most difficult floods the country has seen since 2007. Will the Leader of the House join me in congratulating the emergency services and partner agencies on their work in handling that difficult situation; in recognising the great improvements to flood defences made by the Environment Agency, Severn Trent and local councils; and in calling on the insurance sector to play its full part in making sure that every home is protected?
Mr Lansley
I join my hon. Friend on all those points. We are committed to further investment in flood defences and the benefits it will deliver, and I entirely endorse his point on insurance. Negotiations are proceeding, and I hope the insurance industry and the Government arrive at an agreement soon and provide reassurance for people.
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)
May we have a debate on Fitch’s decision to put the UK’s triple A credit rating on negative watch following the Chancellor’s autumn statement yesterday? According to the Office for Budget Responsibility, debt will reach £1.5 trillion in 2018, while growth is estimated to be minus 0.1% for this quarter. May we have a debate on why the Chancellor might have exchanged our triple A for a triple dip?
Mr Lansley
My recollection is that, in response to the Chancellor’s autumn statement yesterday, the bond markets demonstrated that his statement reinforced the credibility of the Government’s approach, but if the hon. Gentleman wants to discuss these issues, time will be available in a debate on the economy next Tuesday.
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
When can the House expect a statement from the Secretary of State for Defence on the plan for rebasing troops from Germany?
Mr Lansley
As my hon. Friend will be aware, following the autumn statement, and bearing in mind the opportunities presented by private finance 2 as a way of approaching these investments and the consequences of the announced reductions in resource spending, the Defence Secretary will not be proceeding with an announcement on the basing review until after Christmas in order to allow the Ministry of Defence to explore further funding options and opportunities with the Treasury.
Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)
Beth Sherbourne, from Bolton West, has just won the National Apprenticeship Service award for the best higher apprentice in the UK, and for the third year running, her company, MBDA, won the manufacturing excellence award for the best company for education links as well as the award for people excellence. Other high-tech manufacturing companies, however, continue to report difficulties in recruiting apprentice and graduate engineers. May we have a debate on how to ensure that schools promote engineering and apprenticeships among their pupils?
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to the hon. Lady, and I know that the House will join her in congratulating her constituent and the company in her constituency. She makes an important point. There are 450,000—or thereabouts—apprentice opportunities each year; many of them are tremendous opportunities. I have seen in my constituency, at TWI—The Welding Institute—how people starting apprenticeships have gone through, acquired a degree and entered into the most senior positions in the company. It is a tremendous opportunity that is probably not sufficiently appreciated in schools—it is perhaps more appreciated in further education colleges—and she is right that we should encourage paying greater attention to those opportunities.
Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con)
May we have a debate on the nuclear fleet? We have the technology and ability to build a lot more of these power stations quickly, but Hinkley is still taking too long to get to fruition. We need to build nuclear power stations to keep the lights on. The dash for gas is fine, but the power that nuclear power stations produce will keep UK plc going.
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend makes a good point. In that context, EDF’s announcement earlier this week about life extensions for Hinkley Point B and Hunterston B will be helpful. The point he makes is important, and the Energy Bill, which has now been introduced to the House, gives that sense of progress and security. I remember several years ago the then Trade and Industry Select Committee constantly being told by the last Government that they were keeping the door open to nuclear power, but it was not true: simply because they were not doing anything about it, the door was closing. We are now recognising that nuclear power, as a base load capacity, is an essential part of our energy security.
Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)
On 4 December 1971, McGurk’s bar was blown up by an Ulster Volunteer Force bomb, killing my uncle, Philip Garry, plus 14 other people, including two children. On the 41st anniversary, a book was published by Ciarán MacAirt, whose grandmother, Kathleen Irvine, was also killed by the bomb. After all the years of investigation, there are still closed files and letters not available, and there was collusion. Clearly, the British Government, possibly up to the then Prime Minister, Edward Heath, colluded and not only co-operated, but instructed that the false story be spread that this was a bomb carried by the people into that bar and that it was an IRA bomb in transit. Is it not now time for a proper investigation by the British Government into the facts of the case, with all the files being open and the Prime Minister coming here to apologise to the families and community for how they were maligned and, for six years, blamed for a bomb that was clearly a vicious act against them?
Mr Lansley
I am sure that the House will appreciate the strength of feeling that the hon. Gentleman has on this matter. He will forgive me, but I am not privy to any of the details, although I will, of course, ask my right hon. Friends to look into the matter and respond to him.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
May we have a debate on compensation claims by criminals? We read in today’s papers of a criminal who received £2,000 in compensation after being bitten by a dog that he was fleeing after breaking into a car. Are such claims not ridiculous and is it not time we had an age of austerity for compensation claims by criminals?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend will be aware that the House has just voted through changes to the criminal injuries compensation scheme. I hope that that will focus criminal injuries compensation on victims, as it is intended to, and ensure that the more severe victims of crime get the compensation they require, rather than compensation sometimes being spread around in places where it is not so justified.
Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab)
The expensive and cumbersome licensing regime for the use of wild animals in circuses was approved by the House at the end of October. It has not yet come into effect, yet already we hear rumours that the Government intend to replace it with a full ban early in the new year. Can the Leader of the House confirm that the Government finally intend to respect the unanimously expressed will of the House and stop using lame excuses to prevent the Bill from coming into force?
Mr Lansley
I am not aware that I am making any excuses whatsoever. We have made it clear that we will bring forward legislation on that, and that is still our intention.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
Argentina has consistently reneged on repaying World Bank loans worth around £10 billion. The United States Government have decided not to allow any more World Bank loans to be granted. France, Germany and even countries such as Spain have followed. May we have a statement from the Secretary of State for International Development on when the United Kingdom will refuse to grant further loans to Argentina from the World Bank?
Mr Lansley
I will certainly contact my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Development and ask her about that. She will no doubt take the opportunity not only to let my hon. Friend know the answer, but perhaps the House as well.
Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab)
Given that in my constituency there are 10 people chasing every job and given the constant demonisation of the long-term unemployed, young and old, may we have a debate on the calls made by families suffering the indignity of unemployment on our mental health and social care services?
Mr Lansley
May I take this opportunity to welcome the hon. Gentleman? It is a pleasure to have him among us. He makes an important point on behalf of his constituents. We all recognise the impact that long-term unemployment can have. That is precisely why we are working through the Work programme to ensure that people get access to work—a quarter of those who have gone into the programme have accessed jobs—but in addition, not arriving at long-term unemployment is important. We are taking steps, following the last Government, to try to ensure that people have access to psychological therapies when they have anxiety, stress and depression associated with unemployment, and I hope that will continue.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
Happy wedding anniversary, Mr Speaker. A weekend break in the Holme and Colne valleys would be a great way to celebrate your 10th wedding anniversary.
The M62 motorway between Huddersfield, Leeds and Manchester has been an absolute nightmare for the past month. Yesterday morning two lanes were closed at Brighouse and at the teatime rush hour the M621 junction was closed. We regularly have debates about rail services in this House. May we have a debate about the importance of keeping our motorway network moving? Not doing so causes absolute chaos for commuters.
Mr Lansley
I am happy to say that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport is in his place on the Front Bench and will have heard what my hon. Friend said. I know that he and his colleagues in the Department feel strongly about reducing the duration of motorway incidents to keep traffic moving and, through the so-called CLEAR programme—collision, lead, evaluate, act and reopen—are working with the agencies and responders to deliver exactly that.
Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
Nottingham now has 12 food banks, as hundreds of families, many in work, are forced to rely on charity to feed themselves and their children. Yesterday we found out that the Chancellor aims to hit those poor families even harder. Is it not time that we had a debate on child poverty?
Mr Lansley
The hon. Lady is of course free to raise this issue, and it might be appropriate for her to do so at Department for Work and Pensions questions on Monday. Child poverty has been falling, according to the last Labour Government’s definition, but we want to ensure that children move out of poverty and improve their conditions in the absolute sense. That is about work, and reducing the number of workless households has been a significant step in the right direction.
Dan Byles (North Warwickshire) (Con)
It is now apparent that the Department of Energy and Climate Change has been aware for some time of the practice by some unscrupulous onshore wind developers of de-rating, whereby they install a large wind turbine but run it at sub-optimal level in order to benefit from the higher subsidies that are supposed to be available only to small developers. When can we have an urgent debate on the problem, which is costing consumers money and giving renewable energy a bad name?
Mr Lansley
I am sure that my hon. Friend will know that Ministers at the Department of Energy and Climate Change take this issue seriously. They have acted to address a similar issue in relation to hydro sites, and are committed to doing the same for wind. They have met and discussed the issue with wind turbine manufacturers and with Renewables UK, and I will certainly ask them if they will respond to my hon. Friend. The debate on the Energy Bill might also provide an opportunity to discuss the issue.
Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)
May we have a debate on how we can best honour the legacy of those British service personnel who have won the Victoria Cross? They include John Buckley from Stalybridge, who won the VC in 1857 for his gallant defence of the magazine at Delhi during the Indian mutiny. I am told that there is a memorial tablet in Delhi as testimony to his heroism, but his unmarked grave has just been discovered in a cemetery in Tower Hamlets, and it will take about £1,000 to guarantee him a proper gravestone. Will the Leader of the House help me to raise the profile of this issue with the public and help us to celebrate the work of the Victoria Cross Trust, which can make that happen?
Mr Lansley
I am sure that the hon. Gentleman and all other Members—and indeed those outside the House—would benefit from a visit to the Imperial War museum, just south of the river, which has an excellent new display of Victoria Cross medals that also describes the heroism that led to the awarding of them. I entirely share the hon. Gentleman’s feelings about his constituent and others.
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
I recently met my constituent, Stephen Leadbetter, who has suffered from lung problems since he was 14. He is now 22, and has recently been diagnosed as having alpha-1 antitrypsin deficiency. Stephen believes that if he had been diagnosed earlier, his health would not now be declining so rapidly. May we have a debate about raising awareness of this and similar conditions?
Mr Lansley
It is important that the Department of Health should continue to support research and development into rare genetic diseases, and we have protected the research and development budget in order to do so. We consulted on a rare disease plan, and published a summary of the consultation responses last month. Work is on track to produce a UK rare diseases plan by the end of 2013, which could help my hon. Friend’s constituent and many others.
Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)
Further to the question that my right hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) asked earlier, may I add my voice to calls for an urgent oral statement on the closure of Remploy factories? Of the 1,000 people who have already been made redundant, only 63 have found jobs. That is scandalous, particularly in the light of the written statement today that a further 875 jobs are now at risk.
Mr Lansley
I am sure that the hon. Lady will have heard the reply that I gave earlier, but she might also wish to raise this issue at Department for Work and Pensions questions on Monday, as that would be an appropriate time to do so.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
Over the past week, there has been yet more negative publicity about the Liverpool care pathway, which is so important in minimising end-of-life suffering. Will my right hon. Friend ensure that Members of the House have an opportunity to debate this complex issue, rather than leaving it to the sensationalist reporting in national newspapers?
Mr Lansley
My hon. Friend will be aware that that matter is being reviewed by some of the leading clinical bodies and by those representing families and other groups. I will of course talk to my colleagues in the Department of Health about it. The Liverpool care pathway, when properly used with informed consent, can ease people’s circumstances as they move towards the end of life, and it is important to recognise how it can be used properly.
Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab)
The Leader of the House will be aware that this morning another nail has been hammered into the coffin of the Scottish National party’s claim that a separate Scotland would automatically become part of the European Union, in the form of a letter written to the Houses of Parliament. Will he facilitate a debate on accession to the European Union, so that as Scottish voters approach the referendum in 2014, they are able to understand the full implications of that decision for Scotland’s place in the European Union?
Mr Lansley
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that point. It is a pity that that further information was not available when the House debated Scotland and the Union—just last Thursday, I believe. The House expressed its view very forcibly in that debate. As the hon. Gentleman says, the evidence demonstrating that Scotland is better off in the Union and the Union is better off with Scotland will continue to grow.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
The Government moved swiftly to compensate victims of the Equitable Life scandal who were so shamefully treated by the Labour party. The one set of people excluded from compensation were the trapped pre-1992 annuitants, all of whom could be compensated within the envelope of money set aside by the Treasury. Could my right hon. Friend arrange for a statement or a short debate so that we can ensure that these weak, elderly, vulnerable pensioners are properly compensated in their later life?
Mr Lansley
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for his work on the all-party group on justice for Equitable Life policyholders. I am sure that many thousands of those policyholders are grateful to him for his advocacy. If I may, I will ask my colleagues in the Treasury to look at the position for pre-1992 annuitants and I will let my hon. Friend and the House know if anything further can be done to help.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
May I first thank the Leader of the House for his assistance in helping the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs find the 300 letters that my constituents had written to him, which he seemed to have lost? He has now found them, so I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his help. I would, however, like to ask him if he could assist me a little further in respect of the Enhanced Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Bill. In a letter dated 26 June this year from the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, the hon. Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire) who is responsible for crime and security, I was told that membership of the pre-legislative scrutiny Committee was being agreed through the usual channels and that the Committee was expected to report in the autumn. It is now well past the autumn, so I wonder whether the Leader of the House would investigate where this Bill has got to.
Mr Lansley
I will, of course, and I will write to the hon. Lady about that.
Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)
May we have a debate on the economic impact of the autumn statement on the east midlands, where 1.8 million individuals will benefit from an increase in their personal allowances, 325,000 businesses will be cheering an extension of the small business rate relief scheme and, more importantly, 2.7 million motorists will breathe a sigh of relief at the fact that this Government have scrapped the fuel duty increase planned by the previous Labour Government?
Mr Lansley
Yes, I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. It is interesting to note that I did not hear a word from the shadow Leader of the House about the cancellation of the fuel duty increases, nor about the simple fact that every time anybody goes to the petrol pumps and puts 50 litres of petrol in their tank, they will have saved £5 because they are not paying the petrol duties voted for before the last election by the Labour party.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
The Attorney-General said that he would apply to the High Court for new inquests into the deaths of the 96 people who died at Hillsborough and that he would make that application in early December. It is now early December, so has the right hon. Gentleman had any indication from the Attorney-General as to whether he expects to make that application as early as next week, and whether he will make a statement?
Mr Lansley
The hon. Gentleman will know how my right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General has sought to act as quickly as he can, as he has explained. I am sure that when he has anything further to add, he will make the House aware of it.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
The lady in my house says that it is always a miracle getting to a wedding anniversary. Does the Leader of the House agree with me that section 1.2.a of the ministerial code calls for the “principle of collective responsibility” to apply to “all Government Ministers”? May we have a statement next week from a Conservative Minister explaining what it means to Conservative Ministers and a statement from a Liberal Democrat Minister to say what it means to Liberal Democrat Ministers?
Mr Lansley
It would be rather easier to reply to my hon. Friend if he asked a question rather than making an allusion.
The principle of ministerial collective responsibility is precisely as it has always been. Ministers speak on behalf of the Government, and, as my hon. Friend knows perfectly well, if it is clear that Ministers have not had an opportunity to complete their scrutiny of an issue, in the circumstances of a coalition Government it is entirely proper for Ministers—more than one Minister; in this case, the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister—to reflect ongoing considerations within the Government. It is an accurate reflection of the policy of the Government at that time.
Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)
Will the Leader of the House make time for a debate on an ever-increasing health risk? I refer to the impact of wind turbines on people living near wind turbines and wind turbine farms, more and more of whom are coming to my surgeries suffering from severe mental health problems.
Mr Lansley
Time does not permit me to enter into a debate about the health effects of wind turbines, but I know that there are various arguments, and I have read some of the competing literature, as it were. I will of course draw the hon. Gentleman’s remarks to the attention of my colleagues in the Department for Energy, and will ask them to respond.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
When businesses sacked staff by text message, that was rightly condemned throughout the country. People said that it was cowardly and despicable. When, a few years ago, Burberry announced the closure of its factory in Treorchy at the beginning of December, that was condemned as well, on the grounds that it was the wrong time of the year to do such a thing. Today, the Government have done both those things together: they have announced by e-mail that a lot of people working in Remploy factories are to lose their jobs, and they have done it in the run-up to Christmas.
In a way, I almost do not want the Leader of the House to respond to what I have said, but I do want him to think about this. Please, please may we have an oral statement on Monday? The people who work for Remploy are very vulnerable and need to hear the arguments in full from a Minister in the House, and we need to be able to ask questions about the specific situation in all our many constituencies.
Mr Lansley
I think I have made it clear to the House that, in my view, informing the House by means of a written ministerial statement is perfectly proper. An oral statement is not simply an expression of the importance of an issue; it is made by a Minister who is announcing policy, and, as far as I am aware, what was conveyed in the written ministerial statement did not represent any change in policy. It recognised that, as had been anticipated, the Remploy board would conclude its assessment of the stage 2 businesses. Remploy is working closely with the Department for Work and Pensions, and the Department has kept the House fully informed, but the statement did not represent any change of policy on the part of the Department.
West Coast Rail Franchise
(12 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)
With permission, Mr. Speaker, I shall make a statement on what went wrong with the west coast franchise agreement and what we are doing to put things right.
I shall begin by updating the House on the Laidlaw inquiry, and on the decisive action that we are taking in response. I shall then inform the House of the new deal with Virgin Trains—including an enhanced service—that will begin this weekend. My approach to all this, from the start, has been to come to the House to explain the situation openly, quickly and clearly, and it is in that spirit that I make my third statement on the subject today.
Let me deal first with the Laidlaw inquiry. On 3 October, I announced the cancellation of the competition to run the inter-city west coast franchise because of the discovery of unacceptable flaws in the process run by the Department for Transport. As I explained to the House on 15 October, I launched two independent inquiries. I asked the first inquiry body, led by Sam Laidlaw, to look into what happened and why, and I am publishing Mr Laidlaw’s final report today. I asked the second body, led by the Eurostar chairman, Richard Brown, to focus on any lessons to be learnt for the purpose of future rail franchising. That inquiry is well advanced, and I expect to receive Mr Brown’s report by the end of the year. I shall publish it after that. I have placed a copy of Mr Laidlaw’s final report in the Vote Office, and I am placing a copy of my Department’s response to it in the Library. I do not hide from the seriousness of his findings. They make extremely uncomfortable reading for the Department. What happened caused serious problems for bidding firms, including FirstGroup, which was in no way at fault. Action must, and will, be taken.
Let me turn to the detail. Mr Laidlaw confirms much of what he first touched on in his interim report. He finds that the Department wrongly calculated the amount of risk capital bidders would have to offer to guarantee their franchise proposals against default, and he says that these incorrect figures were varied in ways that were wrong. Significantly, he also states for the first time that Ministers made the original 14 August provisional award without being told about the flaws and after being given “inaccurate reports”.
Mr Laidlaw also confirms that if his recommendations on strengthening the organisation are acted upon quickly, the Department will be able to do its job correctly in the future. There is nothing in the report to suggest that the flaws discovered in this franchise competition existed in other procurements in the Department.
Finally, Mr Laidlaw confirms that he has seen no evidence of bias against Virgin. He also offers a clear prescription, which we are already acting on. The Department will ensure that all future franchise competitions are delivered with a clear timeline, rigorous management and the right quality assurance. We will also create a simpler and clearer structure and governance process for rail franchise competitions. That will include the appointment of a single director general with responsibility for all rail policy and franchising, and we will ensure that we have the right mix of professional skills inside the Department and, where necessary, from professional external advisers.
I thank Mr Laidlaw for carrying out such a comprehensive review to such a tight timetable. Any specific personnel issues resulting from what has gone on are—and must, of course, remain—for the permanent secretary.
Secondly, let me turn to the future of the west coast main line. In all my actions, I have put the service to passengers first. That is why I am pleased to tell the House that my Department has negotiated terms with Virgin Rail Group to allow Virgin Trains to continue running the west coast service for up to 23 months. Our intention is to run a full competition for the longer term franchise to follow on from that.
The terms we have negotiated with Virgin secure a continued service for passengers at the same levels they enjoy today, and in some cases better. The timetable that was already agreed for December 2012 will operate, and today the last of the 106 Government-funded Pendolino carriages comes into service. That will allow more trains and longer trains on this vital route. That timetable includes a new hourly service between London and Glasgow.
I also want to see more improvements, including the introduction of new services from London to Blackpool and Shrewsbury. Subject to Virgin securing the track access rights to provide them and to our completing a value-for-money assessment, I hope that both of these new services will be introduced from December 2013.
The Laidlaw inquiry has told us that changes to the Department’s governance and structure are needed. We are carrying them out, and we have a new deal for the west coast main line. This has been an extremely serious issue for my Department and for the civil service, but I am determined that we learn the lessons and get on with the job we are here to do. With our commitment to High Speed 2 and the increase in capital spending on roads announced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer this week, the Government are committed to improving our transport network and backing our railways. I commend this statement to the House.
Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab)
First, may I thank the Secretary of State for early sight of his statement and the report?
The Secretary of State conceded to the Transport Committee that what had been uncovered even in the Laidlaw inquiry interim report was “damning”. It is, indeed, damning, and the final report is even more so.
For all the efforts by the Government in briefing after briefing to pin the blame on just three civil servants and to hide behind an internal human resources process, the results of which will never be made public, some things are very clear. It was decisions and failures by Ministers that led to the collapse of rail franchising, at huge cost to the taxpayer. The Laidlaw report is clear. It was Ministers who decided to change franchising policy; they decided not just to move to longer franchises, but to replace a revenue-risk sharing mechanism that had worked for many years with a complex new model requiring a best guess at GDP 15 years ahead. It was Ministers who oversaw a bizarre structural reorganisation of the Department that left no one in charge of rail. The Secretary of State has now said he will reverse that—finally, we have an acceptance of ministerial responsibility. It was Ministers who chose to axe more than a third of the staff at the Department in a year, with little thought for the consequences of the loss of expertise. And it was Ministers who axed external audits, removing quality assurance from the process. These were deliberate decisions taken by this incompetent Government.
It was also Ministers who failed to act when warning after warning was flagged up to them as this franchise unravelled. Why did alarm bells not ring at the fact that this process had not one but three senior responsible owners? It is not surprising that the Laidlaw report proposes just one in future—that is the whole purpose of a senior responsible owner. Does the Secretary of State not accept that Ministers have an obligation to ask questions and not just rely on what they are being told, not least when they are spending hundreds of millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money? It is clear from this report that they failed completely in their responsibility to do that.
The Secretary of State must now give taxpayers and fare payers some straight answers. First, has he received clear legal advice that will reassure taxpayers that he has not left the Department open to legal challenge as a result of his decision to hand out a two-year contract with no competition? Secondly, are reports correct that he has agreed a quid pro quo deal with First, whereby it will be granted an extension on its First Great Western franchise on a similar basis? Thirdly, the Government expected to receive tens of millions of pounds in dividend payments over the next two years from the west coast franchise and would have received more than £800 million from the great western franchise had First not exercised its right not to extend that contract—can the Secretary of State confirm that, under the management contracts he has been forced into, taxpayers will receive none of those payments? Fourthly, the terms of the deal that has been struck with Virgin allow the margin of 1% on revenue agreed for the first year to rise for the second—by how much could it rise and at what cost to the taxpayer? Finally, will the Secretary of State now come clean with the House on the full cost to taxpayers of the collapse of the Government’s franchising programme? There are media reports from the industry that the final cost could run into not tens of millions but hundreds of millions of pounds. Will he tell the House, taxpayers and fare payers what figure he has been given by his officials?
Despite all the Secretary of State’s efforts, no one is going to fall for the Government’s attempt to wriggle off the hook and evade responsibility for this shambles. They can devise a complex process of multiple reviews, they can hide behind confidentiality and legal privilege, and they can reshuffle Ministers as many times as they like, but the truth is that when commuters go back to work in the new year and find that their fares have gone up by as much as 6% above inflation they will know that it was Ministers from this incompetent Government who, instead of imposing a strict cap on fare rises, blew taxpayers’ money on this franchise fiasco.
Mr McLoughlin
I had hoped that I had given the hon. Lady adequate time to read the report, but it seems that I did not. First, I will deal with her points about Ministers. I refer her to page 44, where paragraph 4.118.2 says that
“inaccurate statements were made to the then Minister of State in writing as to the manner in which the CAC”—
the contract award committee—
“had approached the SLF sizing process in respect of First’s bid at its meeting on 27 June”.
If inaccurate information was given to Ministers, a fact stated in the report, Ministers would have acted in good faith on the information they were given.
May I also make the point that is made on page 63 of the report? It states that
“in implementing substantial cost savings required by the Government’s spending review in 2010, the DfT significantly reduced its headcount, the number of contractors used and its use of external consultants.”
Mr Laidlaw goes on to say:
“That is not to say however that, with appropriate escalation…of the issues, sufficient resources could not or would not have been found.”
There was no significant escalation of the issue, so I think there is truth in that.
A number of parts of the report refer to the Minister of State, the Secretary of State, the Prime Minister and the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), asking questions and I am afraid that there was a damning failure by the Department that must be put right. The hon. Lady says that I seek somehow to blame three civil servants. I have never, in any of the statements I have made in the House or privately, mentioned the names of any civil servants. That is a matter for the permanent secretary. We now have the HR report and the permanent secretary is considering that and what will happen in the future. I would have hoped that the hon. Lady would welcome that.
The hon. Lady talks about the position with First Great Western and its contract to run its railway line. May I remind her who negotiated that contract? It was inherited by the Government and was not our contract at all. If she feels that there are any problems with it, then excuse me but it is not the responsibility of the Government. She asked a specific question about the second year of the contract with Virgin Trains and I will write to her with the answer.
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
The Secretary of State read two quotations from the report, which both implied to me a severe organisational failure. Did Laidlaw have anything to say about the position of the permanent secretary in all this?
Mr McLoughlin
As I think I said to my hon. Friend when I made my first statement on this matter, there are obviously serious questions to answer. The present permanent secretary took his post in April, when many of the incidents to which we are referring had already taken place.
Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)
The Secretary of State acted decisively when he became aware of these issues, but the standing of the Department has been severely damaged by this episode. Three franchises were postponed and the £40 million is simply the first stage of the cost to the public purse. What lessons does the Secretary of State take from this incident for future ministerial responsibility?
Mr McLoughlin
I am grateful to the hon. Lady and I know her Committee will see Mr Laidlaw and no doubt others during their deliberations on this subject. There are a number of lessons not just for Ministers but for the civil service as a whole and on closer reading of the report they become apparent. I hope that this sort of episode will not happen again to any Government.
Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)
The Secretary of State will be unsurprised to hear me welcome the news about direct services to Blackpool. Does he agree that any infrastructure investment is only as good as the economic planning by local stakeholders? Will he encourage local councils and the local enterprise partnership to meet local MPs urgently to discuss how to take advantage of that announcement and not wait until December 2013 to decide what to do about it?
Mr McLoughlin
I am grateful to my hon. Friend, particularly for the way in which he has campaigned for this service. I know that he will be pleased by the intention I have announced today. As I have said, it is an intention and is not absolutely tied down as there are a few processes to go through. Given the way in which he has shown leadership, I very much hope that he gets that message across to the stakeholders involved so that we can make progress.
Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)
Is it not clear that the right hon. Gentleman is doing his very best to clear up an appalling mess that he inherited from his predecessor? Although of course matters of personnel in his Department are, as he says, the responsibility of the permanent secretary, the overall administration was the responsibility of his predecessor and it is unacceptable that she complacently remains a member of the Government having left this expensive mess. I am travelling up to my home in Manchester this afternoon. What am I to say to the excellent train crew who will be looking after me and all the other passengers about the security of their jobs, in which they have the right to be confident and which has been left in total dubiety by what happened before the Secretary of State took over?
Mr McLoughlin
I think I am grateful for the conservative way in which the right hon. Gentleman made his point. What he can say to the crew on the west coast main line is that both this Government and, in fairness, the previous Government have invested huge amounts of public money in that line—some £9 billion. I am glad to be able to say today that we have completed the delivery of the 106 new Pendolino carriages to show our support for that line. I hope that my announcement today and the fact that I have not done what I initially said I would do, which was a short-term contract, then a medium-term contract, gives train crew security and that they can work with their company for the future franchise.
Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)
I was disappointed with the shadow Secretary of State for Transport. When we called Sir Richard Branson into the House of Commons, he and his officials specifically stated that they had first raised concerns about the bidding process with the Labour Government and Lord Adonis. I welcome the announcement of a direct service for Shrewsbury. My hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) and I have long campaigned, along with other Shropshire MPs, for this vital service for Shropshire, which will be a great boost for tourism and business for Shrewsbury, the county town. When we finally have that service I will invite the Secretary of State to join me on the train from Shrewsbury to London and I will buy him a drink on that journey.
Mr McLoughlin
My hon. Friend is getting into the Christmas cheer a little early. He, along with my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard), have been vociferous in making the case for a service to Shrewsbury and other stops on the way. There is still work to be done, but I very much hope we can get that service by December next year.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
I have not seen the report so perhaps the Secretary of State can answer this question. He refers to the risk capital that bidders had to put forward as a guarantee and says that Laidlaw said that Ministers were not told about the flaws after being given inaccurate reports. What questions did Ministers ask about the capital that bidders would have to offer to guarantee the bid?
Mr McLoughlin
I was not in those meetings, for obvious reasons, but I know that Ministers were constantly probing. Mr Laidlaw saw the former permanent secretaries at the Department—not just the present one, but the former ones—and spoke to former Ministers there too.
Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)
I welcome the Secretary of State’s decision to award an interim franchise to Virgin Trains, as this provides a great deal of stability for passengers up and down the country. Will he join me in paying tribute to the Virgin staff on that line, who throughout this very difficult time have always acted with great professionalism?
Mr McLoughlin
I had a meeting just the other day with some disabled people. They sang the praises of Virgin Trains as providing some of the best services to disabled people. I was pleased to be able to pass that message on to Sir Richard Branson when I met him yesterday.
Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)
The Secretary of State said that the Brown report would look at the lessons learned for future rail franchises. Perhaps the biggest lesson is that the whole system is a shambles, but given that the report is due shortly, what process does he have in place for taking account of its lessons in the negotiations with Virgin for the franchise in the immediate future?
Mr McLoughlin
The truth is that what both Governments have recognised about franchising is that it has brought massive passenger growth on the railways and the railways have flourished since franchising has taken place. The hon. Gentleman asks me to say what implications the Brown report will have for franchising. I think I had better wait till I receive it before I answer.
Simon Wright (Norwich South) (LD)
I welcome the degree of transparency that Ministers have brought to these matters. What plans is the Secretary of State making to foster a culture in which admissions of fault are freely made in the Department and processes paused and rectified where necessary? Is it not right that if mistakes are found, hands must be held up?
Mr McLoughlin
I am pleased that my hon. Friend welcomes the transparency that I have demonstrated today. I hope I do not have to do it too often.
Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)
Edinburgh is served by both the west coast main line and the east coast main line services, and between the two there have been three occasions in recent years when the franchise process has gone wrong. Given that the Government will have to sort out the franchise system, not just for the west coast main line, would it not make sense now to decide to keep services on the east coast main line operated by the current operator and allow it to get the benefits of closer co-operation with Network Rail, rather than force it to go through a franchise process again?
Mr McLoughlin
The hon. Gentleman is jumping to too many conclusions at the start. When the previous Government brought in Directly Operated Railways to run the east coast main line, they made it very clear that they would want to move to a franchise process and re-let the franchise, and that is certainly the position that this Government take.
Mrs Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)
The welcome announcement of extra capacity and services on the west coast main line drives a coach and horses through one of the prime reasons for High Speed 2, which is to reduce overcrowding on the WCML. Given the stark warnings of the Laidlaw report, particularly chapter 7, which identifies failings in the capability and capacity of the Department for Transport, how can anyone trust the Department with what will be the largest peacetime spend on a project? Is it not time the Secretary of State took another brave decision and consigned this poorly managed, ill-conceived and increasingly thinly justified project to the waste paper basket?
Mr McLoughlin
My right hon. Friend is vociferous on this issue on behalf of her constituents. She is asking me to prejudge announcements that I will make next year. The Chancellor of the Exchequer made it clear yesterday that we will be moving forward with HS2. I look forward to welcoming her to the Department next week.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
Further to the previous question, will the Secretary of State clarify whether there are any implications for the value-for-money exercise that was carried out on High Speed 2 and, if there are, whether he will be asking the civil service to go back over them again?
Mr McLoughlin
That is a valid question, but of course, as I have said, this is a franchise exercise that went wrong. High Speed 2 is a capital project that I think will benefit the United Kingdom and our long-term capacity. No railway line has been built north of London for over 100 years, so it is about time we increased capacity.
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
The Secretary of State said that there were no implications from the Laidlaw report for any other procurement in his Department, but the interim findings clearly set out that there were concerns about the Department’s management structure and the quality assurance process. Is he still confident that there is no need to review the Thameslink rolling stock contract to ensure that no mistake was made in it as well?
Mr McLoughlin
I can assure my hon. Friend that I have of course looked at that situation. I believe that the contract that was announced some time ago will be coming to a conclusion in the near future.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
The failure of the franchising system, at a cost of £40 million, compares with how the east coast franchise has been taken in-house, saving nearly £200 million. Is it not time that consideration was given to bringing the west coast franchise, and every other franchise, back in-house in line with the successful model used for the east coast franchise?
Mr McLoughlin
I think the hon. Gentleman, in a rather convoluted way, has called for the renationalisation of the railways. That is certainly not something this Government will do. If he can convince his Front Benchers that that might be the right way forward, we will be interested to see that development.
Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)
I very much welcome the additional services and carriages that the Secretary of State has announced. In addition, both Virgin and FirstGroup pledged in their bids significant long-term enhancements to services on the west coast main line. Whatever conclusions are reached following the Brown report, will he ensure that these additional benefits are still secured for passengers?
Mr McLoughlin
I am sorry, but I missed the last part of my hon. Friend’s question. I know that he, as a member of the Transport Committee, will continue to press for a very good service through his constituency.
Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab)
The Secretary of State will be aware that the three civil servants suspended over this fiasco have this morning been reinstated. What does that say about the judgment of leading officials and Ministers in the Department for Transport, and can he elaborate on the reinstatement?
Mr McLoughlin
Staffing is a matter for the permanent secretary, who received the Stow report, which dealt with human resources. The suspensions took place as a precautionary measure while the report was being produced. Obviously, consequences will flow from the permanent secretary receiving that report, and those will become public in due course.
James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend East) (Con)
I congratulate the Secretary of State on the decision on the west coast main line, but has he considered the Essex Thameside franchise and whether C2C should be given a similar concession?
Mr McLoughlin
I am waiting to receive the Brown report, which will, I hope, take us further on lessons to be learned for future franchising. I will be most insistent on passengers receiving the services that they are currently getting, and, where possible, an enhanced service.
Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)
Has the Transport Secretary assessed the potential for running the west coast main line under public ownership and what the benefits might be?
Mr McLoughlin
I believe that the way in which the west coast main line is run by Virgin has been very popular with Members, not on the Government Benches but on the Opposition Benches, who have announced their intention to support that franchise.
Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con)
I thank the Secretary of State for the speed with which he has dealt with this and the integrity that he has shown throughout in dealing with this difficult problem. My constituents are still seeing much needed improvements, with extra carriages and the line to Blackpool, but I hope he will forgive me if I remind him that Fleetwood remains a town with a railway line but without a railway service.
Mr McLoughlin
I do not mind my hon. Friend reminding me of that, and I know that he will do so on many occasions when he gets the opportunity. I look forward to having discussions and conversations with him about how we can possibly improve the situation in which his constituents find themselves, but I hope that he welcomes the fact that the line has come part of the way to his constituency, if not yet all the way.
Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)
The west coast main line is of huge importance to the Scottish economy, as it carries half a million passengers a year along its whole length for business and tourism purposes. What assurances has the Secretary of State received this morning from Virgin trains about whether the 248 workers who are employed by the company in Scotland will have security in their jobs for the future?
Mr McLoughlin
I am not responsible for the personnel decisions of Virgin trains, but I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will make representations to the company. I hope he welcomes the fact that I have announced today the completion of 106 new Pendolinos and the hourly service to Glasgow, which are substantial improvements in this service for people in Scotland.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
May I praise my right hon. Friend for launching these inquiries so soon after he took office? However, while Parliament holds Ministers to account, who holds the Sir Humphreys to account? There is a stink about this process among the permanent secretariat in our civil service. What has happened to the previous permanent secretary in the Department—is he or she still in the civil service? Is the current permanent secretary going to take any responsibility?
Mr McLoughlin
My hon. Friend says that Parliament holds Ministers to account. In fact, it is not only Parliament that holds Ministers to account, because that also happens through the Select Committee procedures, on which I will certainly not lecture my hon. Friend, and that applies to permanent secretaries and officials as well. There will undoubtedly be other reports not only by the Transport Committee but by other Select Committees and by the National Audit Office. Various reports will come out on this subject.
Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab)
Will the Secretary of State agree to meet staff representatives through their trade union to discuss and consider the ongoing uncertainties and concerns about this contract?
Mr McLoughlin
I am always happy to meet various bodies, and if the hon. Gentleman puts a proposal to me I will certainly consider it.
Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend on using the interim finance to bring forward further service improvements on the west coast main line. He will know that we are meeting next week to discuss some of these issues, but will he take my comments as a bid for the return of some of the Virgin off-peak services that the previous Government took away from Nuneaton in 2008?
Mr McLoughlin
My hon. Friend has just given me a taster of what our meeting next week will be about. I will no doubt have a better explanation for him then. He has been a very strong voice for Nuneaton in trying to get extra facilities for his constituents.
Lucy Powell (Manchester Central) (Lab/Co-op)
It is now clear what a complete shambles this whole affair has been and how much time and money has been lost. Fast, frequent and reliable trains are critical to the Greater Manchester economy, but with nearly three years’ delay until the new franchise comes on track, vital investment decisions will put the reliability and speed of this service at risk, which our economy can ill afford. How will that be addressed and where will the money come from for this much needed investment?
Mr McLoughlin
I welcome the hon. Lady to this place. I am sure she will be a prominent speaker on transport issues over the years to come. I would point out to her that the levels of investment that we are putting into the railways are as impressive—if not more so, given the financial situation the country finds itself in—as what the previous Government put in. I met council leaders in Manchester a few weeks ago and talked about a huge amount of investment that is going into the Manchester area. I have already mentioned the completion of the Pendolino trains, and the purchase of new carriages will enhance the service for her constituents and the people of Manchester.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement, particularly the announcement that a new direct rail link from Shropshire to London will start from next December. I pay tribute to him and the Minister of State for all their work. I also pay tribute, in a cross-party spirit, to the hon. Member for Telford (David Wright) and to my right hon. Friend the Member for North Shropshire (Mr Paterson), my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Mr Dunne) and my hon. and dear Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) for all their work. In the ongoing discussions with Virgin, could the important Shropshire market town of Wellington and the important town of Telford also be considered for the timetable?
Mr McLoughlin
I did not actually announce the confirmation of that service, but I very much hope that it will be confirmed. I accept my hon. Friend’s bid for it to stop at other stations on the way, but we will just have to see what progress we make.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
When the direct line from Euston to Shrewsbury was withdrawn, it was a huge blow to the whole of central Wales—to the tourism industry, the economy and the travelling public. Will the Secretary of State accept my constituents’ appreciation of the fact that that direct link has been restored by today’s announcement, a full two years before it would have been if the FirstGroup bid had gone ahead? Will he also join me and my hon. Friend the Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) on the first trip, on which I will buy coffee for both of them?
Mr McLoughlin
By the sounds of it, we will have a full train on that particular trip. I had better talk to my right hon. Friend the Chief Whip to make sure that the timetable is conducive to the House’s sitting times.
Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
I remind my right hon. Friend of the chaos, cost and uncertainty that resulted from the east coast main line collapsing not just once, but twice under the previous Government. With that in mind, will he update the House on the progress of that franchise?
Mr McLoughlin
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for rightly pointing out that mistakes and things that go wrong in franchising are not new and that they have happened in the past. As I said, I am awaiting the Brown report, which will tell us about future franchising and will be an important part of our debate on it.
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
The Secretary of State’s decision today will provide welcome stability to the many users of the west coast main line in my constituency. I know that they will be pleased to be able to continue to travel on Virgin trains. I welcome the fact that, under the interim contract, he is not just maintaining the status quo, but providing improvements, such as a new direct service to Rugby from Scotland for the first time since 2008.
Mr McLoughlin
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for welcoming the new services. The simple fact is that the train operators are very much aware of the demand for new and regular services. As anyone who has witnessed today’s statement will know, we are coming under increasing pressure to expand them and certainly not to decrease them.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
On behalf of the House, may I thank the Secretary of State for coming here for the third time to make a statement on this matter? In all my time in the House, this has been a unique experience. For the first time, something has gone wrong in a Department and a Minister has had the courage to come here to admit it and to do something about it. I have never seen that before. With regard to his former role, will the Secretary of State encourage other Ministers to do the same thing?
Mr McLoughlin
I think Ministers are always ready to hold up their hands when something goes wrong. We need to be straight with the British people. I would not have expected such applause from my hon. Friend, bearing in mind the occasional crossed words that we may have had when I was in my previous role.
Benefits Uprating (2013-14)
(12 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I should like to make a statement about the uprating of social security benefits and pensions for 2013-14. I shall place in the Vote Office full details of the new rates that are due to come into force from the week of 8 April 2013 for each pension and benefit, and arrange for copies of a schedule of the new rates to be placed in the Libraries of both Houses. As part of his statement yesterday, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor announced the rates of tax credits for 2013-14. Today, I will announce the uprating of the social security benefits and pensions for which my Department is responsible.
Even in these difficult times, the coalition Government have stood by their promise for those who have worked hard all their lives. Specifically, we will honour our triple guarantee commitment to increase the basic state pension by the greater of earnings, prices or 2.5%. As prices and average earnings for September 2012 were below 2.5%, the floor of our triple guarantee is activated. Therefore, even while earnings growth remains slow, we will not repeat a small rise like the 75p rise in 2000.
From April 2013, the new rate of the basic state pension will be £110.15 a week for a single person, which is up £2.70 a week on last year. The House may be interested to hear that that means that the basic state pension is forecast to be almost 18% of average earnings—a higher share than at any time in the past 20 years.
Let me turn to additional state pensions, which are often referred to as state earnings-related pension schemes or SERPS. Unlike the Labour party, which froze SERPS in 2010, the coalition uprated SERPS by the full value of the consumer prices index in 2011 and 2012. I am pleased to announce that this year SERPS pensions will rise by 2.2%, which means that the total state pension increase for someone with a full basic state pension and an average additional pension will be £3.35 a week or around £175 a year.
On pension credit, each year the standard minimum guarantee must be increased at least in line with earnings. That would imply an increase of 1.6% for 2013, which would mean our poorest pensioners receiving a smaller increase than the one we are paying for the basic state pension. We think that would be unfair, so I am pleased to announce that we will make equivalent arrangements to those that we put in place last year, which will increase the standard minimum guarantee by the increase in the cash value of the basic state pension. From next year, the single person rate of the guarantee credit will rise by £2.70, taking the weekly income from this safety-net benefit to £145.40. For couples, the increase will be £4.15, taking their new total to £222.05 a week.
Also consistent with our approach last year, the resources needed to pay the above-earnings increase to the standard minimum guarantee will be found by increasing the savings credit threshold, which means that those with higher levels of income may see less of an increase.
This year, the coalition will ensure that those who face additional costs because of their disability and who have less opportunity to increase their income through paid employment will see their benefits increase by the full value of CPI. Therefore, disability living allowance, attendance allowance, carer’s allowance and the main rate of incapacity benefit will all rise by the statutory minimum of 2.2% from April 2013, as will the employment and support allowance support group component and those disability-related premiums that are paid with pension credit and working-age benefits.
In the face of the ongoing challenge to our national economy, we have faced a tough decision on working-age benefits. In exercise of his discretion in the uprating of certain benefits, the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions has decided that the national economic situation is such that the country simply cannot afford to be as generous as we have been in the past.
There has been speculation about a benefit freeze. However, the Government have found sufficient money to pay a 1% increase for people of working age who claim the main rate of jobseeker’s allowance or income support, as well as for those on the main rate plus the work-related activity component of employment and support allowance and housing benefit.
This has been a difficult choice. Where possible, and particularly for those with disabilities, we have sought to protect benefits against inflation. Indeed, we have gone further in the case of the triple guarantee for the basic state pension. Nevertheless, the fiscal position means it has simply not been possible fully to protect every benefit. As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor said yesterday, we need to
“ensure that we have a welfare system that Britain can afford.”—[Official Report, 5 December 2012; Vol. 554, c. 879.]
Uprating for 2014 and 2015 will be affected by the welfare uprating Bill that was announced by my right hon. Friend yesterday, and right hon. and hon. Members will be able to debate these matters further during the passage of that Bill.
At the June 2010 emergency Budget the Government announced that from 2013, rates of local housing allowance would be calculated annually by using the lower of the 30th percentile of local rents, or the previous year’s rate uprated by reference to the consumer prices index. That will end the monthly uprating of LHA and bring the system into line with the uprating of other pensions and benefits. In preparation for that change, the Government fixed LHA rates from April 2012 so as to establish a baseline from which they could be uprated in future. Therefore, from April 2013, LHA rates will be set at the lower of the 30th percentile of local rents or the April 2012 rate increased by 2.2%.
Uprating of LHA for 2014 and 2015 will be in line with the 1% increase for the majority of working-age benefits. LHA rates for 2014 will be set at the lower of the 30th percentile of local rents, or the April 2013 rate increased by 1%, and an equivalent approach will follow for 2015. The Government will set aside £140 million over two years to help those people in areas where rent increases are highest or there is a shortage of affordable housing. It is worth noting—I was surprised by this—that 44% of LHA rates will not increase next year because local market rents have been stable since those rates were last set, and in a further 13% of cases they have actually fallen.
At a time when the nation’s finances remain under severe pressure, the Government will spend an extra £2.8 billion in 2013-14 to ensure that people are protected against cost of living increases. Around £2.1 billion—three quarters of the money—will be spent on state pensions, nearly half a billion pounds will be spent on disabled people and their carers, and nearly £300 million will be spent on people who are unable to work because of sickness or unemployment.
We have protected the triple lock, taking the basic state pension to its highest level as a percentage of average earnings for two decades. We have protected our poorest pensioners with an over-indexation of the standard minimum guarantee so that they too may benefit from the triple guarantee. We have protected disabled people through increases to disability living allowance and attendance allowance, carer’s allowance and the main rate of incapacity benefit, in line with CPI, and disability premiums for those on working-age benefits.
Even in the face of a challenging national economic situation and the need to find savings to rebalance our economy, we have managed to provide a 1% increase to help support those not in work. In this statement I have outlined the Government’s ongoing commitment to ensuring that even in these difficult times no one is left behind, and I commend this statement to the House.
Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab)
I thank the Minister for advance sight of his statement, although from yesterday we had a pretty good idea what he was going to say. Today brings welcome news for Britain’s pensioners. When Labour was in office we lifted 1 million pensioners out of poverty and increased pensioner incomes by 40%. Today the Minister has confirmed that pensions are set to rise, which we welcome, and we look forward to his pensions White Paper, which is now acquiring mythical status—we hope he will soon be able to prove it is a reality and not a myth.
Although the news for pensioners is welcome, news for working people is a disaster. Buried in the small print of yesterday’s Budget is the brutal truth that it was a Budget for unemployment. We already knew that the Chancellor had throttled the recovery, that the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government had cut hardest those councils where jobs were fewest, and that the Work programme was worse than doing nothing, but yesterday we saw what that means for the nation’s finances.
The Office for Budget Responsibility has revised up the claimant count by 340,000 by 2016. This Budget puts up unemployment, and the bill for that failure is enormous. The dole bill in 2015-16 will now be nearly £1 billion higher—£1.6 billion more over the next three years. The bill for failure is not going down but up, and yesterday we learned that working people will pay the price.
This country already has more than 6 million working people in poverty. The Resolution Foundation stated yesterday that 60% of the welfare uprating bill will be paid by working people. It is a strivers’ tax. Her Majesty’s Treasury policy costings state that the 1% squeeze will save £6.7 billion. Provisional analysis this morning by the Library shows that just 23% of that will come from JSA, ESA and income support. The rest of the balance will come from tax credits, maternity allowance, maternity pay, sick pay and housing benefits, which are all claimed by working people. The strivers and battlers whom the Prime Minister promised to defend at his party conference will pay the price for the Government’s failure.
I hope we will not have any nonsense from the Minister about how all that will be offset by the rise in the personal allowance. Already, £14 billion has been taken out of tax credits, and yesterday’s Budget steals another £5 billion from tax credits by 2016-17. The universal credit we have heard so much about—if it ever happens—has been hacked into before it has even started. The price will be paid by 6,000 families in the Minister’s constituency—no doubt they are delighted with him.
In the welfare uprating Bill, what is the value of the squeeze on working people’s maternity allowance, statutory sick pay, maternity pay, paternity pay, statutory adoption pay, working tax credit and child tax credit? During Second Reading of the Child Poverty Bill, the Minister said that he had given up being an even-handed academic, because he was
“appalled at what was happening in our country to the most vulnerable people”—[Official Report, 20 July 2009; Vol. 496, c. 625.]
Indeed, he attacked his hon. Friends for standing “idly by” and watching child poverty reach record levels.
Before the autumn statement, the Institute for Fiscal Studies said that 400,000 children will be plunged back into poverty by 2015 because of measures already taken. How many more children will fall into poverty as a result of this strivers’ tax? Will the Minister please justify to the House how the Chancellor can press ahead with a £3 billion tax cut for the better-off—a tax cut of £107,000 for the 8,000 people earning over £1 million—when 6,000 families in his own constituency will see their tax credits frozen or cut? This Budget has increased the claimant count, put up the cost of failure and now working people will pay the price.
Steve Webb
It is not often that Shakespeare springs to mind when I respond to these statements, but the phrase
“full of sound and fury, signifying nothing”
springs to mind—I missed out the earlier bit of the quote about a tale told by an idiot, out of respect for the right hon. Gentleman. We get a lot of fury and sound, but when it comes to the crunch, he abstains. He described the measures as a disaster, but it was not clear whether that means he will vote against them—answer came there none. If the measures are a disaster, surely he can say he will vote against them, but of course he does not. He sounds sympathetic and angry, but when it comes to the crunch and there is a vote, he disappears and is not to be seen.
The right hon. Gentleman asked about the crucial issue of employment, but he does not seem to realise that the number of people in work is at a record level and will rise every year of this Parliament. That is the record of the coalition. He asked about strivers and somehow wanted to waft away the large increase in personal tax allowances. I am afraid, however, that I will not let him waft away a large commitment to Britain’s strivers. This April, the personal tax alliance will rise by a record amount—£1,300. That is worth £5 a week to the hard-working families he claims to support—far more than any indexation impact.
The right hon. Gentleman referred to universal credit and used the phrase “if it happens”. He may not have noticed that yesterday we published the rates of disregard for universal credit, and on Monday my right hon. Friend the Work and Pensions Secretary will publish further details. This bold welfare reform is on track, on time and under budget, and it will be delivered as we have promised.
The right hon. Gentleman asked about three specific areas. When the welfare uprating Bill is published it will be accompanied by a full impact assessment that will deal with the figures he has requested. On child poverty, the Government remain committed to our statutory obligations, and when taken as a whole, our policies will deliver real reductions in child poverty. He will have seen the chart published yesterday on the impact of universal credit, which shows overwhelmingly that those in the poorest deciles benefit most. Universal credit will help us to eat into child poverty. He did not mention the Chancellor’s announcement yesterday of a multi-billion pound tax relief for investment by British business which will create jobs and reduce child poverty.
Finally, the right hon. Gentleman mentioned taxes on the highest paid. I seem to remember that he was a Treasury Minister. In 13 years of the Labour Government —if I remember rightly—the top rate of income tax was never above 40%. He seems to be objecting to the fact that we have a 45% top rate of income tax. If 45% is too low, why was he satisfied with 40% for 13 years?
Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)
Will the Minister confirm that the Government have protected the basic state pension? Will he also confirm that, as a result of the triple lock, pensioners in Weaver Vale can look forward to £15,000 over the course of their retirement? Does he agree that the Conservative party is the party that makes work pay and that makes it pay to save?
Steve Webb
My hon. Friend is right that the coalition is making it pay to work. We are paying an increase in the state pension that is above inflation and above earnings growth. The figure he gives is right: someone retiring this year on a full state pension will get around £15,000 more over their retirement than they would get under the policies adopted by the previous Government.
Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab)
To paraphrase Shakespeare, the Minister doth protest too much, methinks. He knows that the majority of our children who live in poverty do so in low-paid, working, not shirking, families. Those families are already experiencing serious difficulties in adequately feeding, clothing and, in some instances, even housing their children. In the light of the freeze on benefits, how many more families and children does he expect to be pushed into that—surely, in the 21st century—totally unacceptable situation?
Steve Webb
I hesitate to trade Shakespearian quotes with the hon. Lady, but to be clear, benefits are not being frozen, they are being increased. She is right on child poverty. The Government have not just stumbled across working poverty, because it was widespread under the previous Government, but it will be substantially improved by universal credit, which will make work pay in a way that it did not under the previous Government.
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
Will the Minister confirm that average pay has increased by only 10% and out-of-work benefits have increased by 20% in the past five years, and therefore that holding down the rate of increase will help to make the situation fairer for those who go out to work to pay for those benefits?
Steve Webb
My hon. Friend is right that we have substantially increased out-of-work benefits. He will recall the 5.2% increase last year in line with inflation. We judged that that was the right thing to do when inflation was running very high. This year, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has had regard to inflation and the wider economic situation, which have informed his judgments.
Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)
BBC television this morning went to a clothing factory in Derbyshire.
Mr Skinner
Yes, in Alfreton. The BBC interviewed people—strivers—who work for a living at the factory about the effect of the Budget. Surprisingly, all three of those interviewed understood that the cut would affect them and not just people out of work. What answer has the Minister got for those people about how the Budget was presented? The Government tried to pull the wool over their eyes, but they were smart enough to spot that they would be the casualties.
Steve Webb
Those who travel to work using their cars will have been delighted by the cancellation of the 3p increase in petrol tax. By the time the rates are reviewed next autumn, petrol duties will have been frozen for two and a half years, and petrol prices will be lower by 10p a litre. The hon. Gentleman may wave his hands, but that is what matters to people who work. On the low paid, is he aware that those on the minimum wage have had their tax bill halved as a result of the increases to personal tax allowances? That is welcomed by strivers.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
I commend my hon. Friend and his colleagues for how they have conducted making this difficult decision. Will he assure the House that people who are vulnerable, including disabled people, those who are sick and carers, will continue to get the same benefits?
Steve Webb
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his support. He is right. As well as the undertakings we gave in our election manifestos on the state pension, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor focused specifically on the most vulnerable. DLA will go up in line with inflation, as will attendance allowance, carers allowance and the support component of ESA. We recognise that money is tight—I recall that someone once said that all the money had gone—but we want to protect the most vulnerable.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
It might be a bit more sensible if we had an opportunity to vote on all parts of the package. We could then include some of the things that the Minister’s Liberal Democrat colleagues did not manage to include—I am thinking, for example, of higher rates of tax on property. For working people, and particularly those who are working part time and are dependent on housing benefit, the changes to housing benefit uprating are yet another cut in their standard of living. They lost out in the last round of uprating because of the differential tax credits, which were not uprated in line with inflation. The latest changes are another hit on working families.
Steve Webb
The hon. Lady’s constituents will want to look closely at how she votes. We hear the sound and fury, but then there is abstention. The Labour party has no alternative. There is a shortfall, and the Government have found a measured and reasonable way to fill it. I have heard nothing from Labour Members about an alternative strategy. Until we hear that, we will not take them seriously.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Will the Minister confirm that next year’s 2.5% increase in the state pension exceeds both the growth in average earnings and the growth in prices? That stands in stark contrast to the miserly and insulting 75p annual increase given by the previous Labour Government to pensioners in 2000.
Steve Webb
My hon. Friend is right. Some have suggested that £2.70 is not that great a figure, but when we compare it with the figure he quotes, we can see that it is an improvement. It is higher than inflation and higher than average earnings. As I have said, it takes the pension’s real value relative to what people in work get to its highest level for 20 years. The coalition can be proud of that.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
Many people in my constituency come to see me absolutely distraught at the prospect of losing their private rented flat because of the imposition of a housing benefit cut. Social cleansing is going on in all of central London because of the benefit cap. That is a disgraceful situation. It destroys communities and damages schools—need I go on? The Minister is proposing a £140 million transitional payment. That is not enough, and transition is not enough. We need rent controls in the private sector. If there is to be a benefit cap, it needs to reflect the reality of the costs of life in inner-city Britain.
Steve Webb
I am grateful for the opportunity to clarify where the £140 million that we have identified will be spent. The additional help will go to areas where there are local housing market pressures—areas where rents have risen rapidly or where there is a shortage of affordable housing. It is targeted support for local areas in addition to the discretionary housing money we have made available to local authorities so that the hardest cases can be properly protected.
Sir Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
As co-chair of the all-party group on carers, I welcome the fact that carer’s allowance, and other benefits relating to sickness, such as DLA and attendance allowance, will be uprated in line with CPI. Will my hon. Friend explain what will happen to the value of those benefits under the welfare uprating Bill? Will he guarantee and give the House an undertaking that benefits such as carer’s allowance will continue to be uprated in future years along the lines of CPI increases?
Steve Webb
The focus of the uprating Bill will be on those benefits over which the Secretary of State has discretionary powers, particularly working-age benefits, JSA and ESA. We will also look at tax credits and child benefit. It is our policy to ensure that carer’s allowance is protected against inflation.
Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)
Does the Minister accept that many of those on working-age benefits spend much of their money on food and, in particular, energy, for which the rate of inflation is much higher than CPI? A 1% increase is not the difference between CPI and 1% for these people but is in fact a much greater cut in their living standards.
Steve Webb
This issue is raised every year, and every year it is argued that the rate of inflation for people on benefits is always above the prevailing rate of inflation, but in the long term there is no reason to think that that would be the case. We have made provision for the most vulnerable groups to be protected—those receiving disability benefits and pensioners—but unless the hon. Gentleman can suggest serious ways of saving money elsewhere in the Budget, for which the Scottish National party has not been famous, I am not sure that his opposition to our plans is credible.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
I remember the outrage in my constituency a few years ago when pensioners discovered that the increase in their pension did not cover even the increase in council tax. May I commend the Government for increasing the state pension by 2.5%? It is clear that this Government care about pensioners and that the previous Government did not.
Steve Webb
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for mentioning council tax. Many pensioners, particularly those who are just clear of the means-tested benefit system, whom I often think of as the not rich, not poor group, felt those increases in council tax keenly. They will benefit substantially from our repeated freezing of council tax, which those on a fixed income in retirement value greatly.
Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)
The Minister spoke about the number of people in employment, but does he not accept that the number includes at least 3 million people who are now working part time—not because they want to work part time, but because they cannot work full time? Is that not precisely the group who will be particularly badly hit by his measures?
Steve Webb
There is a danger that the Opposition will denigrate part-time work, which is a choice for many. There are clearly some who want to move up from part-time work to full-time work, and our reforms of the in-work benefits system, through universal credit, will assist them in that process.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
I welcome the extra support for pensioners. The Minister mentioned council tax. Does he share my shock and surprise that while Conservative councillors in my constituency have fought to keep council tax down by cutting councillors’ salaries and senior management, the few remaining and ever-decreasing number of Labour councillors insist on continuing to oppose those changes and fight for bigger increases in council tax year on year?
Steve Webb
All councillors have to have regard to the impact of council tax increases on those, such as pensioners, on a fixed income. It is incumbent on local government as much as it is on central Government to ensure that any unnecessary costs are stripped out so that council tax rises can be kept to a minimum.
Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab)
Will the Minister confirm, despite the Chancellor’s rhetoric yesterday about those who go to work and those who stay in bed, that of those affected by the 1% uprating, 60% are in working households? The increase in personal allowance will be outweighed by the losses to their tax credits and benefits. Is that correct? Yes or no.
Steve Webb
No, it is not correct. The personal tax allowance will rise by just more than £1,300 in April. At a standard rate of 20%, that is approximately £260 a year, or £5 a week, which is more than the impact for the vast majority of households. The hon. Gentleman makes the mistake of taking measures in isolation. It is crucial to look at our measures as a whole, including tax allowance rises and cuts in petrol duty compared with previous plans, which benefit the working households he is most concerned about.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
I wonder what the Government have got against women. Does the Minister agree with the House of Commons Library figures that show that women will bear the brunt of these changes—80% of those affected will be women?
Steve Webb
I do not recognise the hon. Lady’s description. A wide range of the policies we have introduced—for example, in my area on state pension reform—are focused particularly on assisting women. Many beneficiaries of universal credit will be in lower-paid work, which includes many women. She referred to very low-paid women, who, for example, receive statutory maternity pay. They will almost all benefit from the personal tax allowance increase.
Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab)
The Prime Minister used to talk about broken Britain, but is not the truth that this Government are breaking and dividing our country? How can the Minister justify the £3 billion tax give-away to millionaires while thousands of people in his constituency will lose out as a result of these announcements?
Steve Webb
We inherited a situation in which approximately £80 billion a year of spending reductions and tax increases were needed simply to balance the books. I have not heard anything this morning from the Opposition—not a single word—on where, now there is no money left, that should come from. If the hon. Gentleman voted against our proposals he would have some credibility, but of course when the crunch comes he will not—he will sit on the fence. He wants his constituents to think he cares, but when it comes to casting his vote in this place he will be somewhere else.
Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)
The Treasury’s own analysis shows that the measures announced yesterday and today are regressive towards people in the seven lowest income deciles. Given that three-quarters of the cuts in tax credits will affect people in work and that the Government have made no steps to deal with the looming work disincentives that will be faced by second earners in couple households with children, are the Government not making a mockery of their pledge to make work pay for everyone?
Steve Webb
If the hon. Gentleman looks at the distribution impact that was published yesterday, he will realise that he has mysteriously forgotten about the large amounts of additional tax that will be paid by the top decile through the restriction of pension tax relief, who will, by far, lose out the most, and that seems a very progressive thing to do.
Points of Order
Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. In Environment, Food and Rural Affairs questions we had the ludicrous spectacle of the farming Minister refusing to answer my question about the devastating impact on the cider industry of the Government’s proposal to have a minimum alcohol price because he has cider farms in his constituency. He was perfectly happy to answer numerous questions on dairy farming, beef farming and every other type of farming, which he also has in his constituency. Will you please seek clarification, Mr Deputy Speaker, from the permanent secretary at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on this ludicrous ruling? Will Education Ministers not be allowed to answer questions because they have schools in their constituency? It is totally absurd.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
It is not for the Chair to decide who will answer a question from the Front Bench; it is for the Government. I am sure that people will have noticed the right hon. Gentleman’s point of order, and it will be on the record.
Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. This morning the Secretary of State for Transport made a statement to this House in which he claimed that civil servants, rather than Ministers, were responsible for the catastrophic failures in the west coast main line franchising process. After the Secretary of State sat down, we heard from the media that officials suspended during the investigation had been reinstated—a point he failed to mention. May I seek your advice, Mr Deputy Speaker? Is it your expectation that Ministers, when making a statement to this House, provide the full facts known to them?
Mr Deputy Speaker
It is not for the Chair to write statements. The hon. Lady has rightly put her point on the record. I am sure she will not leave it at that and take the avenues available to her to ensure that it is raised in other ways. It is certainly on the record.
Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Those here earlier will have heard the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) try to make his point of order, expressing his apparent surprise that my hon. Friend the Minister was not going to answer questions about alcohol and minimum pricing. As the right hon. Member for Exeter is quoted in his local paper as knowing that in advance, may we ask why he was so surprised and why he had to raise it again as a separate point of order?
Backbench Business
Ugandan Asians
Mr Shailesh Vara (North West Cambridgeshire) (Con)
I beg to move,
That this House commemorates the 40th anniversary of the arrival in Britain of Asians expelled from Uganda, notes their contribution to Britain and welcomes their integration into the fabric of the nation.
I thank the Backbench Business Committee warmly for allowing me to have this debate. It was originally due to take place last Thursday, but was postponed because of the need for the Prime Minister to make a statement on the Leveson inquiry.
On 4 August 1972, the Sandhurst-educated President of Uganda, General Idi Amin, informed troops he was addressing in Karamoja in east Uganda that he had had a dream in which God had appeared to him and told him that he had to deal very quickly with the problem of the Ugandan Asians. This referred specifically to some 57,000 Ugandan Asians who held British passports. The problem, if it can be called a problem, was that they numbered 1% of the population but controlled approximately 90% of the country’s economy.
The response from Idi Amin was brutal and swift. He said that they had 90 days in which to leave the country, and during those 90 days they had to carry red identity cards at all times. He made it absolutely clear that if any of them remained in the country after the stipulated 90 days, they would be rounded up and thrown into concentration camps. Churchill described Uganda as the pearl of Africa, yet, with such a pronouncement, a climate of fear and desperation fell upon the Ugandan Asians. The sense of desperation was eloquently summed up by the late Manubhai Madhvani in his autobiography, “Tide of Fortune”, in which he described the atmosphere at the time and his own imprisonment in a military prison from which few people returned.
As for the response in Britain, there was clearly a fair amount of hostility, both in Parliament and the country at large. Some of it was based on basic prejudice, but there was also genuine concern in areas with high unemployment, in areas with long waiting lists for social housing and in areas with large immigrant populations already settled, such as Leicester. Leicester city council certainly took no chances, because it took out adverts in Uganda telling people not to come here, especially to Leicester, because they were not welcome.
Credit must be given to the Government of the time, led by Edward Heath, who took a courageous decision.
Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab)
I pay tribute to the hon. Gentleman for securing this debate. He mentioned Leicester, so I thought I ought to spring to my feet. It should be remembered that not all councillors on Leicester city council in the ’70s agreed with the council’s decision. In fact, the current Mayor of Leicester, Sir Peter Soulsby, as a young councillor, voted against it. It should be said that Leicester today is a much stronger, more confident and more vibrant city because of the contribution of the Ugandan Asians.
Mr Vara
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. He is absolutely right that not everyone was hostile. Indeed, Sir Peter Soulsby—until recently a colleague of ours—said that Leicester was a stronger place because of the Ugandan Asians.
Edward Heath rightly took the decision that both morally and legally Britain had an obligation to take in the refugees. The position was best summed up in a statement in Parliament on 7 August 1972, when Alec Douglas-Home, the then Foreign Secretary, said:
“We accept a special obligation for these people who are British passport holders”.—[Official Report, 7 August 1972; Vol. 842, c. 1261.]
There was, of course, a fair amount of frantic international diplomacy on Britain’s part, and we managed to persuade 29 other countries to take some of the people concerned. Those countries included the United States, Canada, Australia, India, Pakistan, New Zealand, some Scandinavian countries and some Latin American countries.
Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)
I hope this is not the most important point I will make, but will my hon. Friend remember the Falklands, which asked for a couple of doctors and then a plumber?
Mr Vara
As always, my hon. Friend makes an apt intervention that enlightens the debate.
As a consequence of so many countries agreeing to take refugees, Britain ended up with 28,000 people—28,000 British passport holders who came here frightened, homeless, penniless and with only the clothes on their backs. They arrived at Stansted airport, and some at Heathrow airport, and were met by demonstrators holding placards saying, “Go home! You’re not welcome here.” The fact that they were British passport holders and had no home to go to was by the bye as far as the demonstrators were concerned.
Britain hastily set up the Uganda resettlement board, whose job was to give immediate assistance to the refugees, find them homes and jobs and, importantly, ensure they were resettled in the community at large. To start off with, they settled in 16 resettlement centres scattered throughout the country—former military bases that were mostly bleak and isolated. But this was a time when Britain was at its best. Having accepted responsibility for these refugees, voluntary groups, church groups, charity groups and ordinary citizens came out to help them. They showed their warmth, their compassion and their care for their fellow human beings. Many of the indigenous population did not have much themselves, but what little they had they were happy to share with the newcomers, giving them food and shelter.
Councils throughout the country also responded. In south Wales, Pontardawe rural council offered three council homes, Aylesbury rural district council offered six and Peterborough city council—I represent part of Peterborough—helped too: the then leader of the council, Councillor Charles Swift, went to Tonfanau resettlement centre in Wales with local employers and offered 50 council houses, provided the people agreed to take on the jobs offered by those with him. For his efforts, Councillor Swift received hate mail and death threats, and for a while required a police escort to take him to work as a railway driver.
This was also a time when individuals opened their doors. Some had only one room spare in their house and took in one individual, but others had more space and took in whole families. This was the British character at its best—but there was a little humour as well. There was the incident of two refugees in a resettlement centre being quite miserable, but suddenly finding that in Britain the shops closed at 5 o’clock and during the weekends. They smiled, and one said to the other, “We’re going to be rich.”
Very soon the refugees moved from the resettlement centres into the mainstream community. Rather than seeing the expulsion as life-destroying, they looked at it as a setback. They picked themselves up and started all over again. They took whatever jobs were available, worked long hours, made a success of their jobs and their lives and built a better future for their families; and now, many of those people employ hundreds and thousands of our fellow citizens. One such example is Mr Shabbir Damani in Peterborough, who came here penniless but now has nine pharmacies employing 100 full-time staff and another 100 or so on an ad hoc basis. There are many other such examples.
There were successes not only in business but in the professions, the military, the police, politics, media and entertainment, charities, sport and so on. There is also the case of Dr Mumtaz Kassam, who was expelled at the age of 16 and went to a resettlement centre in Leamington Spa, but ended up being, until recently, deputy high commissioner for Uganda serving in Britain—serving the country that had once expelled her as a teenager. The precise contribution made by the Ugandan Asians is difficult to quantify in economic terms, but it is generally felt that the south Asian community—or those with origins there but who are now settled in Britain—number 2.5% of the population, but are responsible for 10% of our national output.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
I was a student when Edward Heath and the Government of the day bravely decided to respond positively. If ever there was an example of how a policy can help people in their hour of need and understand that foreigners—although there was a strong British link—can be an asset not a disadvantage, this is it. We would do well to continue to learn that lesson, as we address the inevitable plight of other people who might look to us for help when, through no fault of their own, their Governments turn on them as minorities and oppress them, as the Amin Government did to the Ugandan Asians.
Mr Vara
My right hon. Friend makes a valid point. The Ugandan Asian community is a case study of a minority group who were persecuted, came here but did not seek to rely on the state, instead picking themselves up and becoming self-reliant.
Many, many success stories are recorded in the media, but we must not forget that not all those 28,000 people became millionaires: many simply got on with their everyday lives, in whatever trade or job they had, and became model citizens in their own way, doing their bit for the greater good of the country as a whole. It is important to record that. There can be no doubt that the community as a whole has punched above its weight in Britain—it has done more than its fair share for mainstream Britain.
I am reminded of the Parsee community, who were persecuted in Persia—now Iran—more than 1,000 years ago: because of their faith, Zoroastrianism, they had to leave Persia. They left in their ships and went to the shores of the state of Gujarat in India. The leader of the Parsees sent an emissary to the Maharajah of the state of Gujarat to say, “We have been persecuted and we ask that you give us refuge in your country.” The Maharajah sent the emissary back, saying, “I’m sorry, I cannot take you and your people. My own land is too populated, and, besides, you have a different religion and culture. But I will give you this shipload of provisions: food, water, milk, honey—anything you need to take with you to another place where you might find a home.” The leader of the Parsees took a cup of milk from the provisions that were sent and some sugar. He put the teaspoon of sugar in the milk, stirred it around, sent for the emissary and said, “Tell the Maharajah of the state: ‘In the same way as the sugar has blended and integrated with the milk, so too, if you give my people refuge in your country, will we integrate.’”
The Parsees were allowed to stay in the state of Gujarat, and they stuck to their word. They became model citizens and are leaders in various aspects of Indian life—the military, academia, business, entertainment, and so on. One such individual is Ratan Tata, of the Tata group. Not only does he employ thousands of people in India, but the Tata group employs more than 50,000 people in Britain, including more than 700 in my constituency, one of the group’s companies being Diligenta Ltd. The position was summed up eloquently by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister when I asked him a question recently in Prime Minister’s questions. Referring to the Ugandan Asians, he said that they had made a
“fantastic contribution to our national life.”—[Official Report, 28 November 2012; Vol. 554, c. 224.]
The Ugandan Asians who have settled here in the past 40 years have truly settled and truly integrated, becoming part of the fabric of our nation.
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
I am proud to have supported the request for this debate in a meeting of the Backbench Business Committee. It is an important debate, but I slightly regret its title on the Order Paper, which should refer to the “Anniversary of the expulsion of British nationals of Asian origin from Uganda”, as it was only because this group of people shared a passport with other British citizens who were born in Britain that they were accepted here when they sought entry to the UK after expulsion from Uganda.
Permission to enter was not given easily. I have talked to some of those who were queuing desperately outside the British high commission, panicking and in fear of Amin’s henchmen. They reminded me that it was not until Canada decided to admit 6,000 refugees and Amin started rounding up white Britons that Edward Heath agreed to act. Indeed, Himat Lakhani, whose family were expelled and who himself helped to welcome people here, tells me that the Canadians handed out water and provided them with chairs to sit on. He suggested that they managed to encourage the cream of those who fled Uganda to go to Canada as a result of that positive treatment.
A few years before, in a similar process of Africanisation, British people of Asian descent were being squeezed out of Kenya. That led to one of the most shameful acts of a Labour Government, agreed to by this House: the hasty passage of the Commonwealth Immigrants Act 1968, which created a racial divide in UK citizenship between those who had an ancestor born in Britain and other family members who were citizens of the UK and colonies. My predecessor as MP for Slough opposed that Act. I praise her and other rebels who joined her in opposing it, one of whom is still a Member, my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick). I would like to put on record my praise for him.
Following the 1968 Act, the Government announced the creation of the special quota voucher scheme to admit a small number of British national heads of household who were under pressure to leave Kenya, and later Uganda. When the Uganda expulsion took place, the scheme was insufficient, but it continued for years and led the European Commission of Human Rights to find the UK guilty of “inhuman and degrading treatment”. The scheme discriminated against women who were not heads of households but who held UK and colonies citizenship. The waiting time for the issue of quota vouchers in India reached eight years in the mid-1980s—I remember that because I was trying to help people in the queue. Of course, Amin’s action meant that the quota voucher system could not cope. Praise is due to Ted Heath for ignoring those such as Enoch Powell and the dockers who argued that we did not have a responsibility to those people. He recognised that we did.
The refugees came here facing cold weather, dismal conditions in the ex-military camps to which they were sent and a nation determined to keep them out of places where they knew people and had relatives, as we have heard. Leicester council even took out newspaper advertisements trying to keep them away. It is interesting to speak to people who were part of that. They tell of the fear they felt in Uganda and of how they arrived with nothing but the clothes on their backs, which were inadequate for British weather. They were fed ham sandwiches in those Royal Air Force camps, even if they were Muslims. They had to share beds. It was often not the warm welcome that we sometimes like to remind ourselves of, although there were individual families who provided the warmest of welcomes.
Himat, along with Mary Dines, formed the Joint Council for the Welfare of Immigrants—for which I later had the privilege of working—and set up a co-ordinating committee to support those who wanted to go to the “red areas” that the Government were trying to keep them out of. He became a social worker in Southwark. In that role he dealt with 30 families who were the last to leave the camps—those with a disabled member or some other substantial disadvantage. He told me last night that nearly every one of those 30 families, welcomed into a council house, now owns their own home; so this is a story of success, but also one with some lessons for us in Britain.
The first thing we should do is celebrate those such as the hon. Member for North West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara), whose ancestry is from the Uganda Asian community, together with other hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Witham (Priti Patel) and Shriti Vadera—the right hon. Baroness Vadera in the other place, who was formerly a Minister. Those people have all contributed enormously to our civic, economic and general life in Britain.
While celebrating those achievements, however, we should not forget that the history of our legislation and our rules has not always been one to be celebrated. Just months after we had accepted the Ugandan Asians, in February 1973, this House debated new immigration rules that further downgraded the citizenship of that community. British citizens were given a lower level of priority than Commonwealth citizens who had a grandparental link to the United Kingdom. The creation of that racial divide has been a slur on our immigration policy for years.
The history of this process contains lessons for us as legislators and for Ministers. I was in the House in March 2002 when, in reply to a question from my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann), a Home Office Minister announced, without any consultation whatever, the abolition of the special quota voucher scheme, saying that it had become irrelevant and was no longer necessary. That sent out an important signal. The people concerned held British overseas citizenship passports, and we continued to have an obligation to them.
It is no accident that one of the first actions that Hitler took against the Jews was to remove their citizenship. Citizenship is key to creating a person’s identity. By excluding people, a state can entrench social exclusion. I know that that Labour Minister was acting innocently on the basis of bogus briefing by civil servants, but we as Members of Parliament need to stand against that kind of injustice. I was glad that, because I knew the history and had been involved in campaigning for so long, I was able to brief the then Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett), and, within a month, ask him a question to which he responded that he agreed in principle to look again at the matter. By July of that year, the next Minister of State at the Home Office was able to announce that:
“British Overseas Citizens who currently do not hold, and have never given up another nationality will be given an entitlement to register as British citizens.”—[Official Report, 4 July 2002; Vol. 371, c. 525W.]
The Home Secretary described the people concerned as having
“a deep commitment to this country and a heritage linked with it.”—[Official Report, 24 April 2002; Vol. 384, c. 354.]
He was quite right.
We are today recognising the fantastic contribution that these Britons—and let us call them that—have made to the country of their citizenship. The fact that they have done so well is largely due to their commitment to education. I represent a racially diverse town, and I know that all sorts of migrants bring energy, courage and a commitment to learning. Anyone who starts a new life and builds up their family thousands of miles away from the place where they were born and brought up has to have the qualities of courage and imagination. One of the reasons why the United Kingdom is a vibrant and dynamic economic and cultural leader, as well as an exciting place to live, is the contribution of those and other migrant communities.
We also need to use this debate as an opportunity to remind Ministers to treat advice with scepticism. The same civil servants who had told that Home Office Minister that the special quota voucher scheme was irrelevant and no longer necessary were, within a month or two, briefing the Home Secretary that if the change that I was proposing were to be adopted, hundreds of thousands of people would pour into Britain. They did not do so. Both those bits of advice were, frankly, spurious.
There is another lesson for us. The moral panic that led to the Commonwealth Immigrants Act 1968 and to places such as Leicester saying “We’re full up; stay away” is very similar to some of the things that we hear today about asylum seekers, refugees and immigrants. We need to show the courage that was shown by Sir Peter Soulsby, Joan Lestor and others. We need to say, “We are not going to go down that road. We are not going to be moved by the likes of the Daily Mail to say that this is a problem to be opposed.” We must stand up for what is right, and for matters of principle. We must resist the siren calls of hatred. We must tell people that Britain is a successful country because it is a tolerant country and because we have so many different races and traditions that are able to contribute so well to our success and our future.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
It is an honour to follow the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart). I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara) on securing the debate, which celebrates all that is good about Britain.
I grew up in Wembley, and I well remember being at school in the autumn of 1972 when some very young, bewildered and bedraggled individuals suddenly arrived. They did not talk about what had happened to them. They were dressed in second-hand clothes. They spoke brilliant English. Indeed, their English was far better than that of most of the people already at the school. They had clearly had a great education when they arrived, but they did not say much about their experiences. However, as the autumn turned into winter, they found themselves in rather a different environment from the one they had known before.
Those people changed our neighbourhood. We had always had a multi-racial community in Wembley, but it had consisted mostly of what we would now call white UK citizens and West Indians. To that melting pot was added a new group of people. They brought with them wonderful exotic food that none of us had ever experienced before. We became friends with them, but when we visited their houses, we found that they were very different from ours. Every room was used as a bedroom: the kitchen, the dining room, even the bathroom. They lived in a very different environment from that of the rest of us who lived in the area.
It was difficult for many of those families to combat the prejudice that they encountered on a daily basis. We should remember the hatred that was shown towards those people who had arrived in this country, through no fault of their own, wanting a much better life. When I think back to conversations that I had with people who are now family friends, I realise what they went through. They did not talk about it at the time. They also did not talk about their background in Uganda, which we should remember was a British colony between 1894 and 1962, when it was given its independence by a Conservative Government. It was then set up and run as a modern, democratic country. The people we now call Ugandan Asians controlled 90% of the business in Uganda at the time. They were driving the economy of the country forward and making commerce a reality for a whole spectrum of people.
Then, sadly, Idi Amin came to power. We should remember what kind of person he was. He called those people who were bringing prosperity to Uganda “bloodsuckers”. He labelled them “dukawallahs”, casting a deliberate slur on people who were of a slightly different ethnic origin. He encouraged the troops to engage in theft and physical assault on the people who were running the country’s commerce. He encouraged them to use sexual violence, particularly against women, with impunity, and the people who did this were never punished. He then pronounced, as my hon. Friend the Member for North West Cambridgeshire mentioned, that he was going to expel every single Asian who held a British passport.
After the expulsion, all those businesses were handed over to Idi Amin’s supporters. It is interesting to note that the economy went to rack and ruin as a result of his deliberate decision to force the people who were generating the economy out of that country. Of the people expelled, Britain took around 27,200 citizens arriving in this country; 6,000 went to Canada; only 4,500 ended up in India; and 2,500 went to Kenya to continue their lives in east Africa. Some 5,655 firms in Uganda, along with ranches, farms and agricultural estates, were all reallocated—taken from the people who owned them and ran them for the benefit of the local economy. They were reallocated on an ad hoc basis to the people who had forced them out. Cars, homes, household goods, clothes and worldly possessions were all just passed over.
Let us imagine the scenario of what happened to those poor people, and then what happened here. We have already heard that in this very Chamber people said, “We don’t want them here.” Councils up and down the country said “We don’t want them here.” The British dockers and the trade unions tried to stop people who were British citizens from coming here. If the people who did that are still alive, they should apologise for their hatred towards those British people.
It would have been natural for many of the people arriving to feel sorry for themselves and to think, “Our life has ended; what are we in now?” Their reaction, however, was not to rely on the state. They needed some help, of course, but they did not rely on the state. They had existed in Uganda by their own commerce and their own activities, so they set about starting their own businesses in corner shops, seeing the opportunities that Britain offered. They set about employing people, getting loans from the banks where they could, and setting up new industries—and they thrived. After all, these people who arrived some 40 years ago have at their heart the very British view of wanting to work for a living and not rely on the state. They believed in the extended family looking after one another, and looking after the elderly and the young ones—encapsulating everything that is good about Britain.
Forty years on, we are now seeing the third or possibly fourth generation of individuals who came to this country. They are leaders in business and commerce, they are great employers, and they generate valuable resources for this country. They have brought other things, too. We have in this country some of the greatest temples outside India, and they have been built by the people who were expelled from Uganda and other parts of east Africa. I am proud to be associated with many of those temples, and encourage people to celebrate their religion. Of course, these are often the people who most believe in law and order. There are fewer Hindus in our prisons than people of any other religion. They believe in law and order, they obey this country’s rules and they swear allegiance to the Queen and everything we hold dear.
As for education, these families all wanted better for their children, and it is unusual to find such a family that does not have within its ranks a doctor, dentist, lawyer, accountant or other professional. I well remember that what they brought to my school and my area was their cultural roots and their celebrations of their culture. They still celebrate those things today—and quite rightly, too. They also assisted our sporting legacy. Indeed, at my school, our hockey team dramatically improved when they arrived, as did the cricket team. It is true that we can still celebrate that contribution today.
In my constituency today, 40% of the residents have a heritage stemming from Gujarat, from east Africa or from Uganda in particular. In this melting pot of an area in Harrow, people live in peace and harmony. They celebrate their religion; they celebrate their culture; they celebrate their background. The people who came here have generated business, commerce and wealth for this country and for their families, and they have established a heritage here, which we celebrate. Their belief in family values and law and order is an example to us all. I think we can truly say that Uganda’s loss was Britain’s gain.
Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
I begin by congratulating the hon. Member for North West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara) on securing today’s debate. I apologise to him and other Members as I shall shortly have to leave the Chamber to attend the fisheries debate in Westminster Hall. I am pleased that, after last week’s postponement, we have found time to mark the 40th anniversary in today’s debate. We should not forget what happened in Uganda in the early 1970s, especially in a world where protection of human rights remains such a pressing challenge.
Today’s debate provides me with an opportunity to pay tribute to a constituent and friend of mine, Vinay Ruparelia, who came to Scotland as a young man, having been expelled from Uganda along with thousands of other Ugandan Asians. Just a few weeks ago, Vinay retired from a successful pharmacy business that he had run with his wife Teresa in Banff and Portsoy for the last 34 years. The public service he has provided and the jobs he has created in the local community over the years are, in themselves, no small achievement.
It is fair to say that running the business has sometimes seemed like a sideline compared to Vinay’s efforts on behalf of the community of which he became a part. Vinay is a very well kent face around the north-east of Scotland because of his long-standing involvement in a number of local and international charities. As a former president of the Banff rotary club, which celebrated its 60th anniversary this year, Vinay has played an important role in a range of educational and health initiatives at home and overseas. He is currently a director of Books Abroad, a local charity that sends quality second-hand books to schools overseas. Having visited schools in parts of Africa where there is only one textbook for 200 children, I know the difference that that can make to the quality of education and the quality of life for children in developing countries.
Similarly, when earthquakes and other humanitarian disasters strike anywhere in the world, Vinay’s shop has always been a place where donations could be made for global relief efforts. On more than one occasion, I have found him making up kits of essential supplies from his own stockroom.
Vinay has also given up his time very generously to causes much closer to home, and served as chair of the board of Turning Point Scotland, which is a national charity that supports some of the people in our society with the most complex needs, notably those with significant learning disabilities and those recovering from drug and alcohol addictions. Vinay brought the same energy, compassion and entrepreneurial flair to Turning Point that he brought to his business activities. He also exhibited another characteristic talent at getting other people involved. In fact, prior to my election here, he persuaded me to get involved on Turning Point’s board.
When we read about asylum seekers and refugees in the press, we often get the impression that the generosity is one way, and that it is all ours, but exceptional citizens such as Vinay and so many others—some of whom we have heard about this afternoon—have given far more to our society than they have ever received from it. Vinay was the first person I ever knew who had been a refugee. Undoubtedly, as a youngster, learning the story of how he had ended up in north-east Scotland and how thousands of people like him were forced to leave their homes and livelihoods, coloured my understanding of why we have a duty to protect those who seek asylum and why the international conventions that protect human rights are so important.
Above all, today’s debate is a salutary reminder of the sorts of the circumstances that give rise to people becoming refugees and asylum seekers, and it brings home to me why it is so important that we continue to honour our obligations towards refugees and asylum seekers under international law. Ugandan Asians faced unimaginable circumstances with great resilience and courage, so it is fitting that we have had an opportunity to pay tribute to them today.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. Time is getting tight, and I do not want to restrict it further. I am introducing a 10-minute speaking limit, but if Members could shave a little bit off that, the Chair would really appreciate it.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
I am happy to do that, Mr Deputy Speaker. I shall make just a few short comments.
First, let me thank our hon. Friend the Member for North West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara) for his timely and persistent attempts to secure the debate. He naturally wanted to ensure that it took take place, but the rest of us are happy to associate ourselves with his wish.
Although she has left the Chamber, I also want to pay tribute to the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart). She worked for the Joint Council for the Welfare of Immigrants for a long time, and did a very reputable and important job in that organisation. Her continuing commitment to the cause of immigrants to this country, and to others who have not come here but may wish to do so—and have a claim to do so—deserves to be put on record. She paid tribute to others, and I think that she deserves a tribute herself.
The backdrop to today’s debate is the legislation of the 1960s, which was not our country’s most glorious hour, and the mercifully much better response to that terrible “90 days” threat to an entire community, the entrepreneurial heartbeat of Uganda, in 1972. Thank God we responded as we did and other countries in the Commonwealth and elsewhere responded as they did, and thank God there were enlightened local authorities in Britain which, as was pointed out by the hon. Member for North West Cambridgeshire, were positive in their response.
It was not easy for the people who came here in 1972. The weather, as I recall, was grim, and, as we have been reminded, conditions were often grim as well. Those people had a very difficult start. Not only did they come with, literally, the clothes that they could take from their homes and the suitcases that they could pack—often with no finances, and with young children in tow—but they then went into pretty grim accommodation, which we provided in various parts of the country at short notice. The fact that their conditions were made much better was due solely to the wonderful volunteering spirit of members of the community who offered their help, as well as the work of those for whom it was a statutory duty.
Sir Peter Bottomley
On 15 August 2005 an article was published by Martin Wainwright, describing how our former colleague Richard Wainwright, who was Member of Parliament for Colne Valley, took in one of these families. That description gives life to what Members are saying today.
Simon Hughes
I knew that, and, as my hon. Friend would expect, I know Martin Wainwright well: he is Richard Wainwright’s son. Many others did the same.
My constituency has a proud association with Uganda, because King Freddie of Buganda settled there and made it his home, thanks to the generosity of, in particular, the Carr-Gomm family. It was Richard Carr-Gomm, a former Liberal MP for Rotherhithe, who set up the Carr-Gomm Society and the Abbeyfield Society. In what was, in those days, a very white Bermondsey, hospitality and recognition were given to King Freddie and his family, and that spirit has continued through the ages. What happened then changed the cultural mood of a community, transforming white docklands London into the wonderfully multicultural community that we have now.
Mr Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara) on raising this important issue.
I was one of the constituents of the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) and worked in his constituency, and, as he may well know, I was an immigrant myself. Many immigrants come to this country, and it should be proud of attracting people who will contribute to society, whether they are refugees or not.
Simon Hughes
My hon. Friend was the chair of the local Conservative party, if I am not mistaken. Little did I imagine in those days, when Tory candidates stood against me and got 2%, 3%, 4% or 5% of the vote, that I would end up in a coalition Government with him. “Never rule anything out” should be a political adage for us always to follow.
I entirely associate myself with what my hon. Friend has said. I represent very few east African Asian constituents, for no reason other than the fact that they have not settled principally in Southwark, although a significant number run shops and businesses. However, in London as a whole and more widely, the contribution made to, in particular, education, the professions and business in Britain by not just Ugandan Asians but east African Asians in general has been phenomenal. We would not be the successful country that we are now, at home and abroad, were it not for that contribution.
Let me give a microcosmic example. When I was first elected, I observed that the undergraduates entering the medical and dental schools at Guy’s hospital were predominantly white men whose dads and mums, mainly dads, had been doctors before them. The undergraduates who are starting courses this year at Guy’s and Tommy’s medical and dental school, which is part of King’s college, are predominantly women, and a significant number have Asian backgrounds. Their families are east African Asians, or people from elsewhere in Asia, whose professional parents may have been driven out of countries such as Uganda, or may have left in adverse circumstances. It is a phenomenal transformation.
We have had other glorious days. For instance, we eventually behaved better than we might have towards the Hong Kong Chinese who were threatened at the end of Britain’s time in charge of Hong Kong. However, the less glorious days are not over yet. There are still some legacy groups whom we must try to help and support. My noble Friend Lord Avebury and I have been trying to assist a small group of Malay Chinese who have British overseas citizens’ passports but are still in limbo. I hope that the Minister will ensure that Home Office Ministers are reminded that their future has not been sorted out between our Government and the Government of Malaysia. I do not blame our Government, but the situation must be resolved, because that group of people are completely stuck. We have a particular responsibility for those who come from other Commonwealth realms and from British overseas territories.
The hon. Member for Slough and my hon. Friend the Member for North West Cambridgeshire issued a plea to the House, urging us to remember that we in this country have an obligation to stand up for people who come here seeking asylum honestly and properly. We are a rich country: we are one of the richest countries in the world, even during the current period of economic difficulty. We are also one of the most diverse, multicultural and multifaith countries in the world. We co-wrote documents such as the European convention on human rights and the United Nations declaration of civil and political rights. If we cannot, in their moment of need, be here for people who are fleeing from persecution—either as individuals or as a group—because of their colour, faith, background, sexuality or gender, we cannot expect others to do the same in the world as a whole.
We must never allow the unintelligent and prejudiced media to confuse asylum seekers with immigrants in general. Those are separate issues, and subjects for separate debates. Of course we need an immigration policy, and of course we need to control the number of people who come here. We cannot have an “open border” policy. However, we must also have a sane, civilised and respectable policy in relation to asylum seekers. We must honour our obligations. We must try to ensure that the rest of the world knows that we will not close the door to people in their time of need and say no. We will say yes, and we will learn the good lessons of the wonderful experience of making the right decision 40 years ago, to the great benefit of Britain and those families in particular, and to the benefit of the wider world.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
It is a huge pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes).
I congratulate the hon. Member for North West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara) on securing the debate, and on having assiduously visited many Members to persuade them to support it. I also pay tribute to the co-ordination between him and another Ugandan Asian’s son who is in the House of Lords, Lord Popat of Harrow. I understand that at 2.30 pm today the other place will also debate these important issues.
We should acknowledge that, although she was not born in Uganda, the hon. Member for Witham (Priti Patel) is the product of Ugandan Asian parents. The House of Commons has its fair share of representation of those whose families came from Uganda and settled in this country, although the other House has probably done slightly better in that regard.
My speech has two purposes: to recognise the perseverance and hard work of the Ugandan Asians who came to live in my constituency, and to celebrate the next generation. As we have heard, in 1972 28,000 Ugandan Asians came to Britain, and 10,000—a third of them—settled in Leicester. Let me start by saying the Ugandan Asian community has undoubtedly transformed the city of Leicester. In the early 1970s, Leicester was facing an economic crisis. The shrinking of the manufacturing sector, and in particular the hosiery industry, presented a real challenge to the city, but the Ugandan Asians came and rebuilt Leicester. They have transformed the city, and also the country. It has become fashionable to denigrate and criticise immigrants, but the same media outlets that used to say immigrants have come here to live off state benefits now celebrate their achievements.
In order to understand Leicester’s transformation, we must understand the journey of the Ugandan Asians. As the hon. Member for North West Cambridgeshire said, the contribution of the Ugandan Asians to Africa was profound. They transformed, and helped shape, Uganda. As well as holding the great festivals that we now also celebrate here, in a real sense they were the economic heart of Uganda—the doctors, the teachers, the business people.
My constituent, Nisha Popat, was born in Jinja, Uganda. Her father, Manu Lakhani, observed:
“Life in Uganda, I would say, was really, really wonderful because there was no tension. People were all friendly.”
He added that the Ugandan Asians made a great contribution to the country. My wife was born in east Africa, and she, too, has told me about how the east African Asians helped that continent.
We have heard about what Idi Amin did. The Ugandan Asians had to leave their homes and businesses—their money, friends and properties. That is a matter of record. My hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) described them queuing up, emotionally scarred by the experience of having to get their passports and come here.
Many arrived in Leicester with just a single bag, and they faced enormous hostility. Marches through Leicester were organised by the National Front, whose membership rocketed. We have also heard about what representatives on Leicester city council said, with some honourable exceptions, including Sir Peter Soulsby. An advertisement was placed—in the Uganda Argus, not the Leicester Mercury—telling people not to come:
“In your own interests and those of your family you should not come to Leicester.”
They came anyway, and soon Leicester will be the first city in Europe with a majority ethnic population. That is a source of great civic pride, which I and my parliamentary colleagues from Leicester, my hon. Friends the Members for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth) and for Leicester West (Liz Kendall), share.
Jonathan Ashworth
Although we in Leicester have, of course, been remembering this 40th anniversary over recent weeks, we have also been remembering my right hon. Friend’s 25 years as a Leicester Member of Parliament—and we all look forward to his next 25 years. Does he agree that today Leicester is a tremendously harmonious city, and that that is in large part thanks to the great work done by the city council over many years, and also to the mosques, gurdwaras, temples and churches, as well as to all the other organisations such as the Federation of Muslim Organisations and the Gujarat Hindu Association? They have all worked very hard on this matter and continue to do so.
Keith Vaz
As usual, my hon. Friend is absolutely right, and he has given a name-check to some of the more prominent organisations, although there are many others.
The new arrivals settled in Highfields, Spinney Hill and Belgrave in my constituency, and in Rushey Mead. Ila Radia described her situation, as did Jitubhen Radia, who remembered of her arrival:
“It was very cold as we had no heating. I used to go to bed with my coat on.”
Aruna Badiani commented that
“my parents used to really suffer, because we struggled in the cold weather, with no central heating”,
and they were very isolated.
The new arrivals worked for companies including British United Shoe Machinery, Corah, Imperial Typewriters, GE Lighting, and Walkers Crisps. Bala Thakrar recalls her first days at school in England:
“I suppose going into the school was frightening. I went to a school where there weren’t many other Asian or African children so that for me was the biggest shock”
because all the children seemed so different. A teacher at the time, Mrs Gordon, said about the enthusiastic Ugandan Asian children:
“Sometimes a bit too keen, you know; they all wanted to be brain surgeons and doctors, but you got used to that.”
At that stage, of course, none of them wanted to be what the hon. Member for North West Cambridgeshire became: a Member of Parliament.
The new arrivals worked hard. They rebuilt their lives and held on to their values and culture. They were determined to create a new life for themselves, and made a truly significant impact on Leicester’s economy. One estimate suggests that the 10,000 who came to Leicester have created 30,000 jobs in the city. Those people included Bhagwanji Lakhani who set up the world-famous Bobby’s restaurant in my constituency, and Jayanti Chandarana, who bought his first petrol station in the 1970s.
Today the Ugandan Asian community is a part of the Leicester landscape. To see that we just have to walk down the Belgrave road in my constituency. I know the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) loves his constituency and area as much as I love mine, but if there were a competition, the Belgrave road would probably beat the Ealing road. On the Belgrave road is our “golden mile” as it is popularly known, because it boasts a range of shops and enterprises run by Ugandan Asians. I know that today a television screen has been set up in the Belgrave neighbourhood centre, and the community has gathered to watch this debate.
There are businesses such as Ram Jewellers and Kampala Jewellers and the great sari shop, Sheetals, as well as restaurants and caterers such as Mirch Masala, Sanjay Foods and Sharmilee. Even my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester South is granted a visa to enter Leicester East to eat at these establishments. He might also choose to pop into the shop of the world-famous photographer, Maz Mashru, who has won the Kodak gold award for his amazing pictures.
Their contribution has not gone unrecognised by a grateful city. The local newspaper, the Leicester Mercury, dedicated pages to the achievements of the Ugandan Asians who came here. An exhibition was staged at the New Walk museum to celebrate their accomplishments. Such was its success that it will have a permanent home in the spring at the Newarke Houses museum.
We have heard from Members representing Slough, Harrow, Southwark and even Banff and Buchan, and we will hear later from a Member representing Wolverhampton. That illustrates that the Ugandan Asians have gone all over the country. I am particularly focused on the next generation, however. Those of us who came here as first-generation immigrants—I came here at the age of nine, and from Yemen, not east Africa—have opened the doors. The next generation will be the golden generation, because of the contribution they can make not as first-generation immigrants, but as equal citizens of this country.
That is true of the Ugandan Asians, and also of all the other communities who come here. Questions are nowadays asked about whether multiculturalism is a fad of the past. It is, in fact, very important. It is what won us the Olympics. Team GB was a mirror of Britain. Athletes from different backgrounds won us gold medals, and silvers and bronzes, because of the work they have done as equal citizens.
I have great ambitions and hopes for the next generation of Ugandan Asians. They have huge ambition themselves, and great talent and amazing capabilities. Perhaps one day a Ugandan Asian will be speaking not from the Back Benches, but from the Treasury Bench, winding up for the Government in important debates such as this one. I hope I am a Member long enough to see that.
I thank the hon. Member for North West Cambridgeshire for enabling us to debate this important subject, and I say to the Ugandan Asians, both in the Belgrave neighbourhood centre in Leicester and throughout the country, who are watching our debate, “The best is yet to come. What you’ve gone through, no community has had to go through. The best is yet to come for you, for the people of Leicester, and for the people of this great country.”
Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)
The right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) reminds me that I try to end most speeches by saying that we can look with affection to the past, with admiration to the present and with confidence to the future. I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for North West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara) has managed to secure this debate, as I have learned a lot from those who have spoken.
My grandmother took in a Russian after the great war; my parents, when I moved out of my bedroom, took in a Hungarian refugee after the uprising; and my wife and I were delighted to go to an RAF camp in Kent to collect Razia and Roshan Jetha, who came to live with us for a year and a half. We learned a great deal from them, and I was also grateful for the £5 a week they gave us, which helped with the housekeeping.
The key point about the Ugandan resettlement is that within two years the resettlement board had produced its final report and almost none of the evacuees were out of work. We cannot say that all the problems had been solved, but the job had been done. If people look at the record of the Adjournment debate that David Lane, the then MP for Cambridge, had on 29 July 1974, which was responded to by Alex Lyon, they will see those who helped to contribute to that—the voluntary groups, the Churches and the Women’s Royal Voluntary Service, among others.
Nationality is one of the issues in this debate, which must be seen in the context of the see-saw in Britain between justice and racialism, both of which we have had and perhaps still have. J. B. Priestley, during the war, asked us to name our eight great-grandparents. Most of us cannot do that, so we cannot actually know precisely who we are. Dorothy Sayers, in an essay or talk she wrote during the war called “The Mysterious English”, which was published in “Unpopular Opinions”, one of Victor Gollancz’s yellow-covered books, tried to explain to people what it was to be English. She said that we were “a nation” rather than “a race”, but to go into her argument would take up more time than I have available. It is worth remembering that when Idi Amin went mad it was in the context of Kenya and Tanzania doing the same kind of thing as he was doing and when the UK was in the middle of passing a succession of immigration laws in 1962, 1968 and 1971. In 1968, James Callaghan openly said that in these sorts of circumstances, which he would not have foreseen directly, we would take in the people of British nationality. As it happened, Idi Amin wanted to get rid of the 23,000 Asians who had Ugandan nationality as well, so we are not particularly talking about those who had chosen one kind of passport rather than another.
I pay tribute to Sir Charles Cunningham and the resettlement board, because they managed to bring the resources together. They asked for help, they provided it and they brought in the evacuees at £70 a head for each flight. As well as taking the offers from other parts of the world, they provided the basis for letting the Asians from Uganda join in our community in a way that was just regarded as natural by most who met them. The right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) referred to King Freddie, and two of my children were at school with King Freddie’s children or nephews and nieces. It was perfectly normal and natural; although everyone has backgrounds, some happier than others, some grander than others, at that age people accept each other as they are. That is one of the contributions that the Ugandan Asians have made, and the same can be said of the Kenyan Asians and the Tanzanian Asians.
We ought to try once a year to have a debate on inclusiveness. Others might think of it as “diversity” but I think it is inclusiveness; it is about how we give people the chance to make a contribution to their own lives, to their communities and to the nation. If we can do that, we can be proud of being on the right side of the see-saw: on the side of British justice rather than racialism.
I end with some words about a man I first knew when he was the vicar of Tulse Hill—after other jobs, he later became the Archbishop of York. I turn around words that he had once used in my hearing by saying, “They came, they saw and they stuck to it.” He put it as “Veni, vidi, velcro.”
Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con)
First, I thank my hon. Friend the Member for North West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara) for securing this debate. As protocol, we refer to those on our Benches as hon. Friends, but I am happy to say that he is a personal friend. Interestingly, just as I am about to speak two other personal friends seem to have joined me. I am taking a bit of a risk in speaking without any notes or having preparing for the debate. I am not sure whether they are here to see me fall flat on my face, but I think their interests are benign.
Why am I here? I am of east African descent. My father came to this country from Kenya in 1961. He had less than £5 in his pocket and no idea of where he was going to sleep that night. He took that risk because he wanted to live in a country that had choice, freedom and opportunity. For my father, it was not too bad, but my uncle’s situation and story were slightly different. In Cusumo we ran a small electrical business and from the mid to late ’60s life was made very uncomfortable for my uncle.
Paul Uppal
In Kenya. In essence, my uncle left with just the shirt on his back and the opportunity to come to the UK. He followed my father and came here. He was driven by those same principles of wanting to live in a country where he had opportunity, choice and freedom. That story was replicated by many thousands of people, and I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) for raising an issue that has been highlighted so often: in early 1968, in what Andrew Marr described as one of the most shameful periods of British politics, more than 40,000 Kenyan Asians were made stateless. It is important to put things in perspective, and what is so good about these Back-Bench debates is the quality of the debate. There is an attempt to be non-partisan, but it is sometimes important for us to have an honest and cathartic debate to recognise where shortfalls have occurred.
I was born in the UK and went to school here. When I think back to those early days, I recall that often between shutting the front door and getting to school I was told to go home on about half a dozen occasions. I was not sure where home was really. Home for me was a small two up, two down in Smethwick, where eight or 10 of us would sit around of an evening having a meal. What I encountered did not stop when I reached school. I am not going to embellish things and I can assure the House that this next story is a true one. In one of my technical drawing lessons when I was probably about 11 years old, the deputy head master was asking the students what we were going to do that evening and he asked—I will tone this down—whether anyone was going out bashing Asian people. I remember my spine getting very stiff. I was attempting to draw a straight line as he said that, but it wobbled as those last few words came out.
This debate, and the way in which it has been conducted, has brought back so many memories, and that is why I wanted to speak in it. I am now the Member for Wolverhampton South West, which was represented by Enoch Powell between 1950 and 1974, so therein lies another story. When Enoch Powell first won the seat in 1950 he had a majority of 691, as did I when I won my seat in 2010. If I feel a compulsion to make a radical speech in 16 years’ time in a Midland hotel, please feel free, my most respected friends, to hold me back and stop me—although I suspect that is unlikely.
I return to the main point of today’s debate and what we are, in essence, talking about. I picked up on one sentence from my hon. Friend the Member for North West Cambridgeshire: he said that this period showed Britain at its best. I know that the Minister and the shadow Minister are anxious to speak on this issue, so I will not delay them for too long. However, I think one thing encapsulates this period of British history more than anything else. I was listening recently to a chaplain from RAF Cosford talking about an experience that he had had. The term “concentration camp” has been used today, and he was speaking about his experience when visiting such a camp. I am not sure whether it was Auschwitz-Birkenau, but from the images he saw he was struck by one thing. He said, “If you have two rooms, one full of light and one full of darkness and you open the door to the one that has light, the light will spread into the darkness.” In this period of history we can look at the British role and at British politicians as spreading light into a time of darkness. It is important for us to remember that, especially as we take this issue forward.
I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz): the best days are ahead of us for the east African Asian community. Its contribution has been phenomenal. It is cathartic for me to stand in this wonderful Chamber and speak about these issues, especially as I have mentioned the history of growing up as a small boy in Smethwick, walking to school and having to face those experiences. I dare say that my father will be watching this speech—or perhaps even taping it, as even though he is retired he seems to be busier than I am. That is very much the ethos of so many east African Asians. He came here to work and he still does; he embodies the best that is British.
I have a Christian first name and a Sikh surname. I have always tried to live by the ethos of trying to combine the best of my British values with my traditional Indian values. I am not alone in that. All east African Asians who have come to this country—and many other migrants, if we are honest—have tried to adopt it. They enrich their host culture and the indigenous communities with which they mix. When we have that combination, we have a formula for success.
Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op)
I, too, pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for North West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara) for securing the debate. The 40th anniversary of the arrival in Britain of the Asians who were expelled from Uganda is a wonderful occasion that allows us to pay tribute to those who left so much and suffered so much on the way, but who have now contributed so much to Britain.
I want to add a few words to the moving speeches made by so many hon. Members, including my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), my hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) and the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal). The range of contributions on and references to places across Uganda shows that the voice of the Ugandan Asians has spread across this country. We have seen their contribution in areas far and wide as well as in constituencies such as mine.
I was born in Britain and I am a British Asian. Although my family did not come directly from east Africa, members of my extended family did. They hid so well the suffering and sacrifice they had to make from the next generation that I never knew until I was much older what had happened and how the community had supported itself and stayed strong in times of great hardship on arrival. I want to mention someone who was very dear to me but who died a year ago, just before my election: Mr Jagpal founded the Vedic Cultural Society, which makes a strong contribution to our community in Hounslow and brings people together in faith as well as in cultural activities. He was a true example of the role of those individuals. They resettled their families and their children at new schools and started new jobs, in which often they had had no experience, simply to make ends meet; and, in the amazing tradition of parents under stress, created a better life for the next generation, ensuring that those who came after did not face the same suffering as they did but went on to play a huge part in their nation.
I am incredibly proud of Britain. That time is marked out in our recent British history as a time of great compassion, of great welcome to those from abroad and of when we saw the diverse fabric of Britain at its very best. It absorbed those people within the nation and made Britain the diverse nation it is. We have seen the value of that this year in our winning the Olympics. Indians took part in the opening and closing ceremonies and showed that we have managed as Asians in Britain to become a strong part of the fabric of this country. We maintain links with our separate histories, but do so in a way that makes Britain even stronger in the world.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for North West Cambridgeshire for securing the debate and pay tribute to all those in my community who, through businesses, schools and their community contributions, play such a huge part in our public life in Britain.
Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab)
It is a privilege to speak in this debate from the Front Bench, as what started out as a humanitarian catastrophe has turned into an amazing human success story. This has been a celebratory debate, which we do not often have in this Chamber, and it has united the whole House this afternoon. We have heard a number of very moving speeches, but I want to pay particular tribute, as others have already, to the hon. Member for North West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara) for his tenacity in securing the debate. As we know, it was replaced by the discussion on the Leveson inquiry and I am pleased that he persevered and succeeded in bringing the issue before us this afternoon.
We have also heard passionate and heart-warming contributions from my hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart), the hon. Members for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) and for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford), the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), the hon. Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley), my hon. Friend the Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema Malhotra) and the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal). It is a mark of how far we have come that the hon. Gentleman represents the seat that was once represented by Enoch Powell.
Despite my youthful appearance, I remember the terrible events of 1972, when General Idi Amin decided to expel the Asian Ugandans after, I think, the British refused to provide financial support. I heard a documentary earlier this year that reported that Idi Amin had subsequently apologised for that decision—rather late, it must be said. One of the consequences of that decision was that it was catastrophic for the Ugandan economy. It had a damaging impact on Uganda, and perhaps that was one of the reasons Idi Amin recognised the error of his ways and apologised for his actions.
Edward Heath’s Government tried to negotiate with Idi Amin, but unfortunately did not get anywhere. As we have heard, the Ugandan Asians were told they would be imprisoned in concentration camps if they did not leave the country within 90 days. After the events of the second world war, which were relatively recent history, it was appalling to hear about concentration camps and putting people into them. We were faced with a humanitarian crisis. The Heath Government looked to settle people in other countries but they found that very difficult, as many refused, so they offered the Ugandan Asians the opportunity to come to Britain. It has to be said that that was one of Ted Heath’s finest hours.
The Ugandan Asians who came to Britain had few, if any, possessions, and many were robbed by the Ugandan authorities. Those immigrants went through a terribly traumatic experience. We have heard that the mass migration was very controversial at the time, and it came just a few years after Enoch Powell’s infamous “rivers of blood” speech. Edward Heath was worried about Enoch Powell and that that speech could increase racial tensions. We know that that led to the introduction of a new immigration Act, whereby the right to British citizenship for Indians in other countries, such as Kenya, was revoked.
On arrival in the UK many Ugandan Asians were bussed to Strandishall in Suffolk and put into temporary accommodation until they could be settled across the country. The migrants subsequently relocated to various parts of the UK, as we have heard today. The legacy of that migration has been extremely positive. Again, we have heard many examples this afternoon. Many of the Ugandan Asians were skilled and educated workers and so were able to integrate into society successfully. It is worth acknowledging that although Leicester city council at the time took out advertisements, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East pointed out, urging Ugandan Asians not to settle in Leicester, a third of the Ugandan Asians did settle there and have made a huge and positive contribution. Leicester is now an exemplar of how a diverse and cohesive community can form over time.
The story of Britain’s response to the plight of the Ugandan Asians is an illustration of what makes Britain such a great country. It illustrates the sort of actions that make all of us in the Chamber today and, I am sure, the rest of the nation proud to be British.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Don Foster)
I begin by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for North West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara) not only on securing the debate but on the passion with which he spoke. It is a great pleasure to respond on behalf of the Government in this commemoration of the 40th anniversary of the expulsion of the Ugandan Asians, welcoming the contribution they have made to Britain and their integration into the fabric of the nation. Like the hon. Member for Derby North (Chris Williamson), I am delighted that it has been a celebratory debate, uniting the whole House.
I am grateful for the contributions of all Members to the debate. My right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) reminded us of the constant need to point to the huge contribution that many immigrants have made to the life of this country and that in relation to asylum seekers this must be a country that, in times of need, will not close its doors. The hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) echoed such views and spoke of the contribution of immigrants to many different aspects of life in this country, not least to our vibrant cultural life. She also rightly pointed to lessons to be learned and cited examples of legislation that did not show us at our most tolerant.
My hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman)—as he said, from the melting pot of Harrow East—praised those who came wanting to get on with it, encapsulating what is great about Britain. He reminded us of the contribution that many of the Ugandan Asians made in sports such as cricket and hockey. Above all, he made it clear, as did the hon. Member for Derby North, that Uganda’s loss was Britain’s gain.
Bob Stewart
Although I have not been present for the whole debate, I understand that no one has mentioned the courage of Ugandan Asian soldiers, sailors and airmen serving their new country. I want to put that on the record: thank you, Ugandan Asians.
Mr Foster
My hon. Friend makes his point in his usual eloquent way. I certainly support his remarks.
The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) celebrated the contribution of one of her constituents, Vinay, who used his energy, compassion and entrepreneurial skills for the benefit of the local community. I thank her for that example. As she pointed out, he, like many others who came, gave far more to our society than they ever received from us.
The right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) made his usual powerful contribution. As we celebrate his 25 years in this place, he celebrated the contribution of Ugandan Asians, not only the first generation but now the next generation—the golden generation, as he described them—to rebuilding and transforming the city of Leicester, and what they are doing and have done since that time. As he said, and I am sure he is right, the best is yet to come.
My hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West (Sir Peter Bottomley) paid tribute to the one body that has not been mentioned other than by him, the resettlement board, which certainly deserves our praise for the work it did.
Keith Vaz
I thank the Minister for his kind comments, but the deputy leader of the Liberal Democrats, the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), has been in the House longer than I have, and we have not had his celebration yet.
This debate is about a celebration of 40 years. Sometimes when new communities arrive, there is a tendency to criticise them and what they do when they first arrive. Is there not a lesson about the way in which we use language when new communities arrive? I am thinking about the east European community, which, over the past eight years since accession, has made such a great contribution to this country, but there are still criticisms of it. We need to be careful because at the end of the day, the contribution can be seen.
Mr Foster
I absolutely agree. A similar point was made earlier by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark.
The hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal) described his own family’s experience coming here, wanting choice, freedom and opportunity, and pointed out that when they got here they used them to full advantage, making, as he described it, a phenomenal contribution. The hon. Member for Feltham and Heston (Seema Malhotra) described the ongoing contribution that Ugandan Asians are making in her constituency, and her pride in Britain’s compassion and the welcome that was given then and which we continue to give to incoming immigrants.
Looking back over the past 40 years to those fateful months in 1972, we know that the United Kingdom acted swiftly. Idi Amin announced on 4 August 1972 that there was no room in Uganda for British Asians. By 18 September the first 193 British Asians from Uganda arrived at Stansted airport, and in the first year, 1972-73, a total of 38,500 Ugandans Asians came to Britain. Even in that initial period we saw the seeds of the ongoing success of the British Ugandan Asians. By mid-November 1972 more than 1,000 employers had already offered jobs to the newcomers.
Many people have been praised today but we should not forget the work of Praful Patel, then secretary of the all-party committee on United Kingdom citizenship and now a key organiser of the 40th anniversary events this year, who, following the expulsion of the Ugandan Asians, became a member of the Uganda resettlement board, which has been mentioned, and was involved at an individual level, helping thousands of families to mend separated and broken lives. There are success stories everywhere. The hon. Member for North West Cambridgeshire is one of them, as is my hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel). Lata Patel was the mayor of Brent back in 1996, Yasmin Alibhai-Brown is a well respected journalist and author, Rupal Rajani is a BBC journalist. Mohammed Asif Din played cricket for Warwickshire, and Tarique Ghaffur CBE QPM was an assistant Commissioner at the Met police. There are many others who could be mentioned.
Only a day ago I had a letter from a successful British Ugandan Asian who wrote:
“The lessons learnt show that with compassion, decency and understanding an impoverished community can come to the UK and grow, thrive and in time be big contributors to UK society and the UK economy.”
I want to acknowledge the immense courage of the former Prime Minister Edward Heath and his Government back in 1972. I must mention, of course, the generous response that the British people made to help Ugandan Asian refugees as they settled in the United Kingdom. As my hon. Friend the Member for North West Cambridgeshire said, it was a time when Britain was at its best.
I want briefly to put the debate in the context of this Government’s work on integration or, as my hon. Friend the Member for Worthing West would prefer to call it, inclusiveness. We are doing what we can to live up to our responsibility to create greater confidence among those who come to this country, encouraging greater responsibility, promoting more activities and opportunities for personal and social development and at the same time giving help, support and guidance. We are running some 30-odd projects to assist in that area to promote social mobility—for example, working with leading figures in the British Asian cuisine industry to offer young people chef scholarships.
We are also working with private sector partners in the business world to inspire young people through our enterprise challenge and industrial cadet projects. To promote participation in our communities and responsibility to each other and society, we are supporting Youth United so that over 10,000 more young people from all backgrounds can come together as part of national movements such as the scouts and the police cadets. We continue to provide support for English language tuition.
In 1997, recognising the vitality lost to Uganda, President Museveni invited Ugandan Asians to return home. Some families returned, but most chose to remain in Britain. Those families have integrated into UK life and are one of this country’s biggest integration success stories. Later this year and next year a number of commemorative events will take place, including a thanksgiving event at Leicester cathedral and various dinners in London.
I end by praising my hon. Friend the Member for North West Cambridgeshire for securing the debate, which has allowed us to remember properly the events of 1972, recognise the contribution of British Ugandan Asians and welcome their integration into the fabric of the nation. A number of commemorative events are still to be held over the next few months, and I urge all Members of the House to participate in them enthusiastically.
Mr Vara
With the leave of the House, may I say that when the House debates people coming to this country there are often negative overtones, but it has been a pleasure—I think that all Members agree—to see today that the House is united in commemorating the 40th anniversary of the arrival of the Ugandan Asians, who have British passports and the majority of whom were of Indian origin. I thank all Members who have contributed to the debate by telling us about their personal experiences or those of their constituents. In so doing, we have finally recorded, 40 years on, the enormous contribution that this relatively small number of people—28,000—have made to the United Kingdom and the fact that Britain really was at its best. It showed its true character, its warmth, generosity and ability to care for those in need. To paraphrase a famous quote: they came, they saw, they integrated.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House commemorates the 40th Anniversary of the arrival in Britain of Asians expelled from Uganda, notes their contribution to Britain and welcomes their integration into the fabric of the nation.
Defence Personnel
(12 years ago)
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Mr James Arbuthnot (North East Hampshire) (Con)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered the matter of defence personnel.
If I may, I would like to begin, rather oddly, by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for North West Cambridgeshire (Mr Vara) on the previous debate, which was outstanding—despite the fact that it has taken time away from the defence debate. I think that it was a really worthwhile way of starting today’s Back-Bench business.
I am grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for granting us a debate on personnel issues. We discover that there is a disadvantage in having this debate during the week of the autumn statement, because it has been relegated to the end of a day after not only the important debate we have just had, but important statements that have to be made following the autumn statement. Because there is less time than there might otherwise have been, I will take as little time as possible in order to allow everyone who wishes to speak to do so.
There will inevitably be subjects I do not cover. I am afraid that I will not cover the important issue of reductions of certain historic and well-recruited regiments, but I hope that, by not speaking about that, I will allow other right hon. and hon. Members to do so, and with greater knowledge than I could possibly show. I shall say little about redundancies or reservists, because the Defence Committee has recently conducted a number of inquiries into those subjects. Yesterday, we took the unusual step of announcing in advance the Committee’s programme for the remainder of this Parliament. It will include inquiries into some of these important matters.
One of the advantages of having the debate today is that it seems to have prompted the Ministry of Defence to produce lots of documents, including its accounts for 2011-12 and the annual report on the covenant. It is always nice to have the MOD’s accounts, even if the auditor qualifies them, as always, by saying that they do not show a true or fair view of the state of the MOD’s finances. It would have been nicer still if we had had the accounts in June or July, when we should have done, but no doubt the accounting officer will be able to give an explanation when he comes before us next week—an event to which I know the whole Defence Committee will be looking forward enormously.
Today’s annual report on the armed forces covenant is welcome. It reflects many of the suggestions made by the Committee in its continuing series of inquiries into the covenant, for example on doubling council tax relief, on the false economy created by the pause in the refurbishment of single living accommodation, on home ownership and on health care, particularly mental health care, for veterans and reservists. Those are not acknowledged as being the Committee’s suggestions, but we know the terms of trade and do not mind that, so long as the MOD from time to time listens to what we say and does something about it.
The relationship between the MOD and the Select Committee needs to contain an element of constructive tension—almost scratchy; never cosy. Sometimes there is more tension than constructiveness, but I tell the Minister that the more open his Department is with the Committee, the more we can help to get his policies right. We shall shortly be producing a report on the Service Complaints Commissioner, who, as usual, gave us most helpful evidence a couple of weeks ago. I hope that the Minister will listen and respond positively to what we will say on Dr Atkins’ extremely valuable role.
The MOD does sometimes help us. Last week it helped the Committee to have an extremely valuable visit to Afghanistan as part of our normal programme of visiting our armed forces wherever they are deployed. Several issues arose, and they are what I want to concentrate on for the remainder of my short remarks.
I will touch first on welfare matters, starting with decompression. At the end of a six-month tour, we consider it essential to ensure that our troops are provided with a period of what is known as decompression. Often that takes place in Cyprus on the way home, when the returning troops, over a few kegs of beer, are reminded that their spouses will have been living their own lives while they were away and will not necessarily understand exactly what they have been through. These are absolutely essential reminders.
However, apparently, decompression is not considered essential when our forces return for a two-week break in the middle of a tour. That suggests that we need to rethink the entire concept of the two-week break, not of decompression itself. Is the two-week break necessary or a good thing? For example, when our troops are working alongside the Americans, who, unlike British forces, get travel time taken off their break but get only a two-week rest and relaxation break in a one-year tour, does that create resentments on either side? Is the entire concept of a break destabilising? If, for operational reasons, someone’s break comes very near the beginning or end of their tour, what good does it do? The armed forces and the Ministry of Defence need to begin to think about these things very seriously.
The armed forces sometimes need to make serious and difficult choices between welfare and operational output. I suspect that in 2014 the welfare of our troops in Afghanistan will be pretty minimal, frankly. We will have drawn down and taken away much of their support system, and, as we were told, they will be living out of the backs of their vehicles. The troops and, just as importantly, we need to know that, think about it, and accept it now. This is not about stopping looking after the armed forces who do so much for us; it is about putting it in the context that their primary task is operational, and that when they signed up they also signed up to an element of austerity when necessary.
Another issue that arose was detention. There is a genuine problem over the legal ability to transfer those whom we detain to the Afghan authorities, which were accused in the past of mistreating one of the people we had previously transferred. We visited the detention facility in question, and we were impressed with the new deputy governor, who has a good international track record in observing and enforcing human rights. Nevertheless, we remain concerned that there should be a speedy solution to this problem. We must not run the risk of being forced to hold on to people whom our troops detain, because that might lengthen our involvement in Afghanistan in certain respects far beyond the period for which we would wish to be so involved. Still less must we put our troops at risk of being subject to any legal challenge regarding a failure to obey international law in what they have done. I suggest that in future there should always be an Afghan element in the capture, interrogation and detention of those suspected of insurgency or dealing in narcotics so that in all cases the detention is Afghan, not British, and the problem therefore does not arise. However, such a solution would require complicated discussions between ourselves and the Afghan authorities, and I appreciate that it will not be easy to achieve.
Our role in Afghanistan now is to step back, and that is a very difficult thing for the British armed forces to do. Their natural inclination, as the sort of people they are with the sort of qualities they have, is to step in and help; that is what they are trained to do. However, we are now reaching the stage in Afghanistan where the best help we can give is not to help. One aspect of this is the insider threat, which is sometimes referred to as “green on blue”. One of the soldiers we talked to in Camp Bastion said that it is absolutely galling that the very people we are there to help might turn on us. The risk is not going to go away; all we can do is minimise it. My own view—I do not know about other members of the Defence Committee—is that we are doing our very best to achieve that. If we draw the conclusion that we cannot trust the Afghan security forces, we will be quite wrong. It is a fantastic country with wonderful people who are, let us not forget, being asked to learn in a few years what it took us centuries to learn. It will still be necessary for our troops to help to use the ISTAR—intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance—assets that we have and to call in the medical helicopters that are so highly regarded, but it will increasingly be less necessary for them to patrol alongside the Afghan patrols, which are becoming more capable day by day.
We came away from Afghanistan with a strong message. At the end of the summer, an instruction went out to the insurgents that they should fight their way through the winter. Despite that, the insurgency dropped away very suddenly. The insurgents are finding it increasingly hard to raise and retain their money and resources. They are also finding it very difficult to persuade their co-insurgents to fight Afghan soldiers, who are becoming increasingly competent. That competence is likely to increase with the advent of the academy for officer training, to be run along the lines of Sandhurst. We went to visit it. It is currently a building site, true, but the Afghans have begun to identify their first training officers and non-commissioned officers, who are clearly of extremely high quality. They have set themselves some enormously high challenges—for example, to have 150 female officer cadets a year passing through the college. In the long run—this point was most validly made to us by President Karzai—the issue of the equal treatment of women is likely to be resolved not by western influence or by the hectoring of countries such as ours but by education and the visibility of the outside world provided by the internet.
We found that security is no longer the primary issue of concern for most Afghans. There is still fear when people travel from one part of the country to another, but the ability of Afghans to farm in peace, and to get their goods to market on an increasingly secure road network, is being greatly improved. This has been achieved by a combination of the actions of our troops and the actions of the Afghan national security forces—police and army, pleasingly—in doing what our troops are training them to do.
Some say that we should leave Afghanistan now. In one sense, that is what we are doing. If we wanted to leave tomorrow, it would in fact take us about 18 months to do so. We are doing it by leaving in place a working security apparatus that will help to ensure that Afghanistan does not again become a threat to this country. By staying involved after the end of combat operations in 2014, we will ensure that there is transition, not abandonment. The strongest message that we received from our personnel in Afghanistan was that we should hold our nerve and stick to the plan, which is a good one.
Here I should acknowledge something: I was wrong. I believed that by setting a date for us to leave Afghanistan we were playing into the hands of the Taliban, who would just wait us out. I told the Prime Minister that if we concentrated on success, we would make it easier for us to leave, whereas if we concentrated on leaving, we would make it harder for us to succeed. It is hard for me to say this, but the Prime Minister and my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle (John Stevenson) were quite right and I was quite wrong. In practice, the Afghans needed us to step back, and they needed a timetable. Arguably, by setting a date in 2014 the Prime Minister bought more time for the international security assistance force to achieve transition than it would have had if the time scale had been left open-ended.
Finally, I would like to pay tribute to our armed forces. They are going through a tough time at the moment, as is the entire country. They know they are not immune from the financial hardship afflicting us all. They are facing redundancies, reductions in the pensions they can expect and a smaller total expenditure on defence.
Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that many service personnel want clarity from the Ministry of Defence on what will happen to arrangements for units in which husbands and wives are based? They, like the right hon. Gentleman, perhaps, and me, were under the impression that we might learn that from a statement from the MOD as soon as next Tuesday. Is he aware of reports suggesting that that announcement will not take place next Tuesday and does he know of any reasons why that might be? If not, perhaps the Minister on the Treasury Bench could clarify whether that is correct.
Mr Arbuthnot
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his intervention. The Chief of the General Staff was asked a similar question when he appeared before us yesterday. Unsurprisingly, the timing of statements is a matter for the Government. We will have to wait to hear from the Minister whether this has been affected by the changes announced in yesterday’s autumn statement, but he will have heard the hon. Gentleman’s intervention and will no doubt be eager to cover it in his contribution, even if he does not look too eager at present.
As I have said, the Chief of the General Staff appeared before us and he said that this was a worrying and destabilising time for the armed forces. Picking up on the hon. Gentleman’s point, it is certainty that the armed forces want—they just want to know where they stand so that they can plan their lives accordingly.
It is our job as a Parliament to recognise what our armed forces do for us and to thank them for it. I am pleased that the country seems to be well aware of how much we owe our armed forces, and today is our opportunity to acknowledge it and to thank them.
Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)
It is a great pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot). It is also a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Wolverhampton South West (Paul Uppal), who spoke in the previous debate and reminded me—this is important—that he probably arrived in the west midlands as a Ugandan Asian at the same time that I arrived there as a German. He now occupies Enoch Powell’s old seat and I have Neville Chamberlain’s old seat. That shows our extraordinary diversity and ability to assimilate and accommodate people from all parts of the world.
Angus Robertson
The hon. Lady is also holding a piece of paper in her hand.
Ms Stuart
Yes, I am holding a piece of paper—or several of them—in my hand.
Before the right hon. Member for North East Hampshire beats himself up too much about having been wrong, he should remember that we have not yet withdrawn from Afghanistan. I hope that we will both end up having to say that we have been proved wrong, but we should be anything but complacent about what happens in Afghanistan and about the ease of withdrawal. The closer we get to the withdrawal date and the more we have to ensure the safety of our own troops—we are not entirely clear who provides that security—the more difficult it will get. The situation reminds me of when children leave home: we cannot wait for them to leave home, but the closer the time gets, the more nervous we get about their having to step out.
I want to start by addressing a big issue and then move on to something more specific. I am often accused of having a typical foreigner’s emotional attachment to British institutions, which is probably true of a few people. I have always been extremely proud of a country that has a sense of itself and its role in the world, but the recent strategic defence reviews and what has been happening in other Departments have made me begin to wonder whether we still have that sense of self and of our role in the world.
I would assert that we now have a Ministry of Defence that says that we will provide the amount of troops that we can afford in order to balance the books, rather than starting off by saying, “This is the role we wish to play in the world.” I would have expected a strategic defence review to start by saying, “We have a Navy because we are an island and therefore we need x, y and z,” and, “Our air force is a certain size because we have assessed the risk from the air.” The commitment and engagement that we wish to see outside these islands should determine the size of our Army. I have seen no such clear statement as to what we are about.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
I absolutely agree with and entirely endorse what the hon. Lady says about the foreign policy baseline for any strategic defence review, but does she not agree that, if we were to start from that standpoint, it would be almost inevitable that we would end up with a requirement that was vastly greater than the nation could afford?
Ms Stuart
That may well be the case, but we have to start with where we think we should be and then we can work out where we ought to be. It is not just the MOD that lacks that strategic sense. At one stage, the Department for International Development had a clear statutory duty of poverty reduction, but even that is being reviewed and rethought at the moment—I am not entirely sure where that takes us. Our Foreign Office is also reducing its influence. If we consider how this country projects itself to the rest of the world, we will see that there is a lack of clarity in those lead Departments that ought to provide a collective view.
I asked myself whether this was happening all over the world and looked at comparative figures for GDP spending on NATO. Even if we look back as far as the 1950s, there is a consistent pattern within the European Union. Our country and France contribute well over 2% of GDP commitment, so we clearly have a view on where we should be in terms of spending.
It is sometimes difficult to make comparisons between armed forces numbers, because we ended conscription. The Italian and German figures in particular—they sometimes include police forces—are somewhat misleading, but nevertheless the pattern shows that we are still big significant players. We have no sense, however, of why we want to be the big players. What are we going to do?
I want to leave the Minister with a final example of that muddled, confused thinking. In my experience, it is always when we are not entirely sure what we want to say that we end up constructing sentences that are utterly meaningless. The Defence Committee took evidence yesterday on the Army 2020 review and I was struck by something called, “Figure 1: Force Development Deductions”. I invite the Minister to look at the relevant paragraph. I will not bore the House by reading it. It has about 10 sentences and I am glad that the word “broadband” is in there, because that is about the only word I understood. I drew the attention of our witness, General Sir Peter Wall, to that paragraph and asked him about it, and he confessed his confusion about the precise meaning of that integral part of the report. He promised the Committee that he would consult the Babel fish and provide us with an English translation. I think that demonstrates that the MOD needs to be much clearer, particularly post-Afghanistan, of what we think our forces are for. It is no good just to say, “This is how much money we’ve got,” even though the money is important.
This might again be a sign of my emotional attachment as a foreigner, but I am always struck by the island blindness of this country. This is an island, so how can we compromise some of our surveillance abilities? What will happen to maritime security? It is staggering. That is my general point for the Minister.
My second point is much more grounded at home. Last week, I went to meet Malala Yousafzai’s father—the family are currently in my constituency at the Queen Elizabeth hospital and the Royal Centre for Defence Medicine, which do extraordinary work. It was particularly pleasing for me to see that good work, because I was the evil Minister who closed down the military hospitals in places such as Gosport and I remember being denounced in endless Adjournment debates for doing so.
Ms Stuart
But we closed them not because we wanted to, but because the royal colleges were telling us that the MOD could no longer provide the best medical services. Ten years ago, the NHS looked at the Ministry of Defence and said, “You guys really need to step up to the plate and improve your act.” Now, some of the work within defence medicine is miles ahead of what the NHS is doing in terms of rehabilitation and care. We have unexpected survival rates among soldiers, which one can see in the latest evidence from Afghanistan, that are well beyond what the NHS could do. That is a good development.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Mr Mark Francois)
To go back to the hon. Lady’s point about numbers, I declare an interest because my mother was Italian. The hon. Lady’s point about the carabinieri being included is right. In my experience, the Chief of the General Staff is a very plain-speaking gentleman. If there has been any difficulty with that particular paragraph, I am sure that she will get a very clear reply. I echo her comments with regard to the role of 3 hospital at Camp Bastion. The stunning statistic from that facility in Helmand is that however severely wounded they are, 98% of the people who go through its doors alive come out alive. That is an incredible statistic and we pay tribute to that hospital.
Ms Stuart
I also want to draw attention to the creation of the Fisher house on the site of the Queen Elizabeth hospital, which has 18 en-suite rooms. It will be ready next year and will have much better facilities for the families. That is another good development.
I do have concerns about the future. At the moment, our young injured heroes are young injured heroes. In 10 or 20 years’ time, they will be middle-aged, probably overweight like many of us, and will no longer have the image of a hero. Will we still look after them properly then? The military covenant mentions that point.
The paper on the military covenant, which arrived so nicely in time for this debate, refers to the establishment of
“a unified Defence Primary Healthcare Service”.
I urge the Minister to talk to colleagues in the NHS about this matter, because I am in no way convinced that the commissioning structures that are being put in place, now that primary care trusts are no longer doing the commissioning, are sufficient to ensure that the very specialist services that our veterans need are provided not just for the next year, five years or 10 years, but in the long term. It is so much easier for Americans, because registering as a veteran gives them access to free medical health care. We do not have that in this country and it is easy to forget that in years to come, they will still have very special needs.
I read through the report just before the debate and it states that we are planning to create that service, but we need to be more specific. Will it be a specialist commissioning unit? Will there be national commissioning? If so, how will it work throughout England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, given that health is a devolved issue? This is going to be key in the long term to veterans trusting what we provide through the military covenant.
This is a very useful debate. The key thing that I urge the Minister to go away with is that we need to have a much clearer sense of purpose and of what we want our armed forces to do. We must not just look at them when they have been injured or have given their life, as important as that is; I want them to be honoured, celebrated and recognised for the job that they want to do, and that is the job of fighting. We as a country need to have a sense of when we think something is worth fighting for. That needs to be spelt out at some stage or another by the Government.
Jack Lopresti (Filton and Bradley Stoke) (Con)
I thank my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot) and the Backbench Business Committee for securing the time for this important debate.
The defence of the realm and the security of our people is the first and most important duty of any Government. Governments must demonstrate that they value the service and sacrifices of the men and women who serve in our armed forces. Our defence personnel, both on operations and at home, do an awesome job. I know that the House is hugely grateful for everything that they do. I would like to put my personal thanks and appreciation on the record.
We must ensure that our defence personnel have the kit that they need, and that we are clear and candid with them about the changes and challenges that they face. If we do that well, we will create an armed forces and a Ministry of Defence that are militarily effective and sustainable.
The Government have done much of which they can be justly proud in regard to our defence personnel. The historic enshrining in law of the military covenant will change for ever how Governments and our society fulfil their obligations to our forces personnel, veterans and their families. The doubling of the operational allowance was also most welcome.
However, aspects of the 2012 armed forces continuous attitude survey should give us all pause for thought and concern. Satisfaction with pay and pensions is down and our troops feel undervalued. The Government must appreciate that, no matter how resilient our armed forces are, uncertainty over their future is breeding low morale. I would like the Minister to address in his winding-up speech what steps the Department will take to ensure that all defence personnel are informed in a transparent and direct manner of exactly what changes will be affecting them as soon as is practical. Our armed forces are the best of Britain—there is no doubt about that—and they understand that changes need to take place. So let us not insult their intelligence. Let us be as clear and as frank as we can be. They will respect that, whatever the decisions may be.
There are changes that need to be made. When the Government took office, it became abundantly clear that there was no money left. Under the last Government, the MOD was placed in special measures by the Treasury because of its inability to manage its budget. By making the difficult decisions and taking action, this Government have brought the finances back in order and under control.
Mr Kevan Jones
I am intrigued by that point. The claim of both the right hon. Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) and the current Defence Secretary is that they were left a £38 billion black hole. They seem to have plugged that within two years, which is remarkable. Clearly, the two of them should be Chancellor. I notice that there is no mention of that in the introduction to today’s annual accounts. We are still waiting for the figures. How can the hon. Gentleman claim that the budget has been balanced when no such evidence has been produced by the Department?
Jack Lopresti
There is no question but that the MOD’s finances were a mess when we took office. The words that I used were that the Government have “brought the finances back in order and under control.”
I praise the Government’s ambition to have a more flexible armed forces on a sustainable footing, but I disagree that a smaller armed forces is needed. Ministers have said repeatedly that no one wants to see reductions in our armed forces, so why are we protecting spending on international development and aid and giving £9.3 billion a year to the EU? I was elected, as were my hon. Friends, on a mandate that called for an increase in the size of the Army.
Patrick Mercer (Newark) (Con)
Does my hon. and gallant Friend. Does he share my concern that the further reductions or economies in defence spending that were announced yesterday may well end up as yet another reduction in the number of combat personnel in the armed forces?
Jack Lopresti
I completely agree with my hon. Friend and later in my remarks I will say that a time must come when we say, “Enough is enough; no more cuts.”
I raised in a previous debate a point about the EU budget and foreign aid budgets being protected or increasing, and I was pleased when the former Defence Minister, the hon. Member for Aldershot (Sir Gerald Howarth), said that there is an alternative
“and it is to reprioritise Government spending…we cannot justify spending ever more taxpayers’ money on overseas aid and cutting our armed forces.”—[Official Report, 18 October 2012; Vol. 551, c. 521.]
My constituents and I are concerned that the planned reductions will leave us with the smallest Army since the Napoleonic wars. History shows that we rarely see the next war coming. We do not choose our wars—they choose us. Although our security is still largely protected by the Government’s plans, there must come a point when we draw a line in the sand and say to the Treasury, “No more reductions and no more cuts.”
Defence Equipment and Support is based in my constituency. Many of my constituents work there and some have told me that changes are needed in the way it is structured and operates. Those civilian personnel are vital to the future of our armed forces and carry out crucial tasks. I have visited DE and S and have seen at first hand how important procurement, logistics and back-office operations are to the effectiveness and well-being of our troops in theatre and elsewhere.
I look forward to an announcement on the proposed changes early in the new year so that the uncertainty felt by my constituents—and others who work at DE and S—is addressed. Whatever reforms the Government propose for DE and S, I ask them to seek cross-party support. The future of DE and S will have a long-term effect on the capability of our armed forces. It is in our national interest that the best kit for our troops is delivered at the right time to the right place, and of course we must also deliver the value for money to the taxpayer. Members on both Front Benches have a duty to work together to minimise the uncertainty and anxiety of DE and S personnel now and in the years to come with a reassurance that a future Government will not rip it up and start again.
The Government have said that reserves will be at the heart of an adaptable whole force and I welcome the reserves review and the Future Force 2020 report. If the reserves of the future are to play an integral part in the defence of the realm, they must be fully integrated with regular forces on operations and exercise. I welcome the Government’s commitment to an additional £1.8 billion over the next decade for new equipment and training for reserves, as well as the consultation paper on engaging employers, which is crucial.
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend share my concern that there could be the danger of undue reliance on large employers? Communities such as mine in Salisbury have a large number of smaller micro-employers. They are keen to participate in making reserves available, but there must be appropriate support for small businesses.
Jack Lopresti
I agree with my hon. Friend. The attitude and support of employers is crucial for future reserves, and whether they succeed or fail largely depends on how we support smaller businesses that allow their employees to be deployed on operations and exercises for long periods of time.
I am concerned about the post-deployment and aftercare of mobilised reservists. To serve their country on operations, reservists take a break from normal civilian, family and professional life, in most cases for up to a year. It is much harder for reservists to adjust to post-deployment life than it is for regular forces, because of the added factor of trying to get back to normal day-to-day life without the kind of support that a full-time soldier would receive, surrounded by comrades and the regimental family. A person could be out on the ground in Afghanistan, but a few weeks or months later they go back to their civilian job and are surrounded by people who have no understanding of what they have been through. I hope Ministers recognise that and will ensure that adequate provision is made.
I would like the House to consider the words of Lord Healey, a former Chancellor and Secretary of State for Defence who served as Royal Engineer in the north African campaign, the allied liberation of Sicily and the Italian campaign, and who was the military landing officer for the British assault brigade at Anzio. He said:
“Once we cut defence expenditure to the extent where our security is imperilled, we have no houses, we have no hospitals, we have no schools. We have a heap of cinders.”—[Official Report, 5 March 1969; Vol. 779, c. 551.]
Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)
It is an honour to follow the hon. Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti), who, with his experience, has much to bring to debates such as this, as well as the Chair of the Defence Committee. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) and I are members of the German caucus of the House of Commons, and I am pleased to follow her as the next Opposition speaker.
I will concentrate on the forthcoming base review, and I look forward to the Minister’s response to get clarity on why the statement is not being made on Tuesday and on when we can expect it. The base review is directly related to defence personnel because it will concentrate on arrangements for the return of UK forces from Germany and confirm the configuration of basing arrangements—which units go where, which will change their role or close, and which will not return. That is what we expect to hear.
We should put ourselves in the position of servicemen and women and their families, whether they are at a base in the UK, Germany or somewhere else. It is coming up to Christmas and they are expecting some clarity, but unfortunately they will not get it, which is a shame. It would be helpful for the Minister to offer clarity on the time scale.
I want to focus on the impact of the basing review on service personnel and communities not only in the UK, but in Germany. I had the good fortune to be in Lower Saxony two weeks ago—I visited the area around the Bergen-Hohne training area—to meet the local authorities. An announcement on basing will have an impact on those authorities and the service and civilian communities around the training area. Speaking to the mayor of Bad Fallingbostel, Rainer Schmuck, reminded me of the experience we had in Moray recently—as part of the review of RAF bases, the local community had to plan for all kind of eventualities, which is incredibly destabilising. The basing announcement will have a tremendous impact on local authority budgets available in communities such as Bad Fallingbostel.
Mr Kevan Jones
When the hon. Gentleman was in Germany, did he get any indication of whether the British Government have given two years’ notice of withdrawal, which they must give under the treaty? It is my understanding from a recent conversation that that has not yet been given, which is adding uncertainty about what will happen in Germany.
Angus Robertson
That is a good question. I met the premier of Lower Saxony, David McAllister, when I was in Germany. Because many of the decisions to be taken on amelioration of basing policy are effectively devolved functions—Ländersache—in Germany, decision makers such as David McAllister will have to work with local communities to help with the transition following any announcement on the basing review. Not one of my interlocutors both at Länder and community level was aware of any fixed timetable beyond what was said in previous statements. I was not told that there has been any clarity on what is likely to happen. I am sure the Minister does not disagree—he will no doubt say that clarity will be given as soon as possible—but I should underline the point that many hon. Members were given the impression that we would hear on Tuesday, but it now appears that we will not.
For communities such as Bad Fallingbostel, the likelihood of the withdrawal of UK forces is significant. The role of the military in that part of the world goes back a long time, to the time of the Hanoverian redcoats. While they were tramping around parts of Scotland in the mid-18th century, they were also beginning to train on the Lüneburg Heath. The area has since become the most significant training area anywhere in Europe. A series of communities around the training area, whether in Bergen, Celle or Bad Fallingbostel itself, are exceptionally defence dependent. The impact of the basing review is significant not only in Lower Saxony; there are large-scale UK military presences in places such as Gütersloh and Paderborn. We should not lose sight of the fact that basing announcements will be relevant not only here, but in friendly nations such as Germany. It is important that people there have as much notice of any changes as we have here, and as quickly as possible.
I have a couple of constituency matters to raise. Right hon. and hon. Members know that I represent one of the most defence-dependent constituencies in the UK—it contains RAF Lossiemouth and Kinloss barracks. I stress to the Minister that I am hearing loud and clear that people want clarity on what will happen. There is uncertainty on the time scale for the transfer of the Typhoons from Leuchars and uncertainty in Leuchars about what will happen at the base. There is uncertainty in Angus about the Condor facility, which has been there for a very long time. If the Minister is not aware of that uncertainty, I strongly advise him to look closely at the trends at bases such as RAF Lossiemouth, where over and above compulsory and voluntary release we are seeing, in some very important trade groups and specialisations, people leaving in droves. That is due largely to uncertainty and, it has to be said, the success of the offshore oil and gas industry, which is offering tremendous opportunities to people starting a career in the civilian world.
It would be useful to remind ourselves of the commitments given on basing, which I imagine will be the starting point for the Ministry of Defence. We do not have to look back very far, because the previous Secretary of State for Defence, the right hon. Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), was explicit about the MOD’s plans for Scotland and I would like to remind the House what they are. He made a statement on defence transformation, and I will read the entire paragraph, because it is important:
“Army brigades currently stationed around Catterick and Salisbury will make up three of the five multi-role brigades. The other two MRBs will be based in the east of England, centred on Cottesmore, and in Scotland, centred on Kirknewton, south-west of Edinburgh. The MRB centred in Scotland will require a new training area, and positive discussions are being taken forward with the Scottish Government. Two major units and a formation headquarters will be based at Leuchars, increasing the number of posts there from 1,200 to more than 1,300. Consequently, the Typhoon force due to be built up there will instead be built up at RAF Lossiemouth. Other MRB units will be moved into Glencorse, Caledonia, Albemarle barracks and eventually Arbroath, as we intend over time to bring the bulk of the Royal Marines together in the south-west.”—[Official Report, 18 June 2011; Vol. 531, c. 644-5.]
That was outlined only last year, and there is no ambiguity whatsoever. A month later, he went on to give welcome clarity on numbers. When asked about the number of troops expected to return from Germany to Scotland, he said:
“It is impossible to give an exact number, but I would imagine that between 6,500 and 7,000, or something of that order, of the 20,000 personnel we currently have in Germany will be coming back to the multi-role brigades in Scotland. The precise number and lay-down will be subject to the plans that the Army will bring forward in the months and years ahead, assuming of course that we have the agreement of the local authorities and the Scottish Government.”—[Official Report, 18 July 2011; Vol. 531, c. 655.]
The UK Government obviously had the support of the Scottish Government in relation to the training area and any planning that would need to take place. That was a very clear and unambiguous commitment about the number of troops coming back from Germany to Scotland.
All the mood music and noise we hear about the basing review makes me concerned that there will be a rowing back on those commitments only a year after they were made. The context is important and we should not lose sight of it. The former Secretary of State for Defence gave an important number when he told the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs on 7 June 2011 that
“between 2000 and 2010, the total reduction”—
in service jobs—
“was 11.6% but the reduction in Scotland was 27.9%. Over the decade 2000 to 2010 there were bigger reductions made in total personnel as a proportion than in other parts of the United Kingdom.”
That is the inheritance with which we have found ourselves, and we have the commitment given by the former Secretary of State that one would try to make good some of the disproportionate cuts visited on defence in Scotland.
Angus Robertson
I will of course give way to the chairman of the all-party group on the armed forces.
Mr Gray
I am listening carefully to what the hon. Gentleman has to say and I am reluctant to bring a note of party political angst into what has been an extremely well informed and sensible debate so far. However, does he not agree that if his party’s great ambition of an independent Scotland was to happen, the amount of UK troops based in Scotland would be significantly lower?
Angus Robertson
I am interested that the hon. Gentleman has an insight into the policy of future UK Governments wishing to withdraw troops from different parts of the UK. [Interruption.] Will Government Members let me answer? I have spoken for the majority of my comments about the presence of troops in other countries. It would be entirely possible—in fact, would it not be advantageous?—for Scottish troops to continue to train and operate in the area of England he represents, and I see no reason why troops from the rest of the UK could not continue to operate in Scotland.
Angus Robertson
Forgive me, but I want to make some progress. I know that other right hon. and hon. Gentlemen wish to speak.
It is helpful, when talking about the level of commitment to the defence footprint in Scotland, to be reminded of the facts. Only four infantry battalions are based in Scotland. The Scottish-recruited infantry is now smaller than the infantry of the Irish Republic. Further to the infantry battalions, we have 39 Engineer Regiment in the newly renamed Kinloss barracks. It is important to note that manning levels there are 41% lower than the previous RAF establishment total and that no regular Army units are based in Scotland in the following and important categories: artillery, armour, signals, logistics, air corps, intelligence and special forces. There are no military training establishments in Scotland, which means no military academy, no engineering schools, no Army training regiments, no infantry training centres and no senior strategic military command.
Even at this late stage, as the Government go through what they planned to announce in the basing review, which is exceptionally important to service personnel, I appeal to them not to go back on their commitments. Only a year ago, promises were made, and they should be kept. On a related note, the covenant has mentioned. I agree that everything should be done to deliver on it. As the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston pointed out, however, a large number of policy areas relating to the covenant are devolved. I observe that the Minister with responsibility for liaising with devolved Administrations has yet to speak to the Scottish Government since taking office. Having been asked for a meeting by the Scottish Government, he has yet to reply and make it happen.
Angus Robertson
I would be grateful if the Minister could explain why that might be the case.
Mr Francois
I am responsible for my diary, and I met Keith Brown, MSP, who is the transport and veterans Minister in the Scottish Government, some weeks ago. He is an ex-Royal Marine. It is fair to say that we had a constructive meeting. I have met the person in the Scottish Government responsible for the issue I am responsible for in the UK Government, so to try and imply that the UK Government are not in a dialogue with these people is incorrect.
Angus Robertson
“These people” being the Minister and the Scottish Government. I am pleased that the Minister has met Keith Brown; I am just pointing out that the UK MOD Minister responsible for relations with the devolved Administrations has not followed his lead. Perhaps he might encourage him to do so.
I hope that the Government do not go back on their commitments at this late stage. I do not believe that any sovereign Scottish Government of any mainstream hue would manage defence in the way the UK Government have done, with disproportionate cuts to manpower, spending and basing. It is time to make better defence decisions in Scotland. The Scottish National party has committed to uniform personnel levels of 15,000 in Scotland—4,000 more than the 11,000 the UK currently has based there—but we will only be able to do that after a yes vote in the 2014 independence referendum. I look forward to that greatly.
Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)
This has been a fascinating, well balanced and intelligent debate, covering a wide variety of topics. That includes the contribution from the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson), whom I am delighted to follow. He knows his stuff and has made a useful contribution to the all-party armed forces group over the years. I am grateful to him for that, although the possibility of he and I ever coming to a mutual understanding on what will happen to defence in the unlikely event of Scottish independence is perhaps rather remote. I am grateful to him for his remarks and his help over the years.
I rather regret that the old parliamentary tradition of set-piece defence debates has been abolished—I seem to recall that at one time there were six, and then there were three, I think. My right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot), the Chairman of the Defence Committee, has made representations on this subject to the Procedure Committee, on which I sit. Those debates have been replaced by a bid—in this case to be made by the Defence Committee—to the Backbench Business Committee for time. That means that defence, which ought to be the greatest and heaviest duty of the nation, has to compete with other more topical, interesting or amusing subjects for debating time. That is wrong. The Procedure Committee has considered whether time should be given for set-piece debates of this kind and has undertaken to keep the subject under review. It is always worth making the point that we ought to have set-piece debates during the year on defence, the Intelligence and Security Committee and one or two other equally grave and weighty subjects, which might not be quite as popular as some others.
Today’s debate is about defence personnel. If defence of the realm is our greatest duty, it is right that paying our respects, thanks and homage to the people who make that possible—our armed forces—should be high on our list of priorities as a Parliament. I am therefore glad that in recent years we have had the opportunity to welcome back the two brigades a year that return from Afghanistan, as we did successfully the other day. I am grateful to Mr Speaker, Black Rod, the Serjeant at Arms and others who make those parades possible. They are terribly important in allowing Parliament to remember and be physically shown the people we have sent off to war. They are also terribly important from the brigades’ point of view.
Let me quote from a letter I received this morning from the commander of 12th Mechanized Brigade, who came to Parliament last week:
“The opportunity to celebrate and thank our young soldiers is rarely done in such a special way. Although respect for our soldiers is often talked about, the Parliamentary Parade and reception brought it firmly home to me that those sentiments are both genuine and heartfelt. Understanding this was particularly important for the more junior members on parade, as it is they who often faced the gravest danger and all too often it is our youngest who are forced to make the ultimate sacrifice. When that price is paid we know that they will never be forgotten. That response is often expressed by others as well. Last Monday confirmed that it is truly meant by those we serve.”
Brigadier Chalmers’ letter is of great importance and brings it home to us that it is right and proper to pay our respects to those young soldiers. We should be aware that the things they do—as well as the discomforts they face, quite apart from the dangers—are things that very few people in this Chamber would ever contemplate doing themselves. We should take this opportunity to thank and pay tribute to them for all they do.
Mr Francois
I want absolutely to echo from the Dispatch Box what my hon. Friend has just said. I pay tribute to his work as chairman of the all-party armed forces group in helping to organise the homecoming parades. I have seen for myself, on the faces of the troops, how much they appreciate those parades. I endorse the value of these exercises and celebrate the achievements of the men who came back to Parliament. [Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. May I ask the Minister to face the Chamber when he next stands at the Dispatch Box, so that we can hear what he says and so that he can see the Chair, just in case there needs to be an intervention from the Chair?
Mr Gray
The Minister was simply overcome by the passion of what he was saying that he forgot one or two conventions of the House. I am most grateful to him for his extremely kind remarks.
The all-party armed forces group does a useful job. Many of its officers are in the Chamber today, and I am grateful to them for all the things they do. My hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) is chairman of the Army section of the all-party group, and my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) is chairman of that part of the group that looks after the Royal Marines.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
My hon. Friend mentioned the all-party group, so will he say a few words about the armed forces parliamentary scheme, with which he and I have long been associated, as well as about the magnificent work of Sir Neil Thorne and the amazing effect the scheme has had of creating links between parliamentarians and members of the armed forces?
Mr Gray
My hon. Friend not only anticipates what I was about to say but rips the heart out of the central part of the comments that I was about to make. I shall come to that subject in a moment.
The way in which the people of Britain respect our armed forces has changed over the years. It was unanimous after the second world war, as we knew what our armed forces had done for us through those years. At certain times since, there has been a similar increase in respect for them. There have also been periods, particularly in the 1960s and 1970s, when people’s knowledge of and respect for our armed forces has been significantly lower.
I pay respect to my own constituents in Royal Wootton Bassett for the way in which they welcomed home the fallen soldiers for five or six years before handing back the duty to Brize Norton in the Prime Minister’s constituency. They spoke for the nation in paying their respects to the armed forces and the way in which they had served. They did so quietly, modestly and sensibly without pomp or ceremony. They simply stood in the high street getting wet and bowing their heads at the appropriate moment. They spoke for the people of Britain and the way in which we respect our armed forces.
A similar transition in attitudes has occurred here in Parliament. Following the retirement of brigadiers and soldiers who had served in the second world war from this place some 20 or 30 years ago, I suspect that our knowledge of and respect for our armed forces declined significantly for a time. That would have been around the late ’60s and early ’70s, when not much was happening of a military nature and most Members of Parliament who had been soldiers, sailors or airmen had retired.
Oliver Colvile
We must not forget the commitment made by our troops in Northern Ireland during the late ’60s, ’70s and’80s. There were a lot of Royal Marines there, and I would like to pay tribute to them. Those events would certainly have kept people interested in what was going on in the military.
Mr Gray
My hon. Friend never misses an opportunity to speak up for the Royal Marines, and he is absolutely correct. I was not for one second suggesting that the House was silent on these matters during those years; I merely said that their prominence had declined somewhat at various times over the past 50 years.
Into that relative desert of knowledge, awareness and understanding of our armed forces came the figure of Sir Neil Thorne—this is where my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) did me a disservice a moment ago. Realising the shortage of information and awareness in the House, Sir Neil created the armed forces parliamentary scheme 25 years ago this year. Since then, he has run the scheme more or less single-handedly. He has help from a variety of people, but he is the driving force behind it. The scheme has gone through all sorts of changes. When I joined it in 1997, it was extremely small, with one MP from each side of the House attached to each of the four services. This year, there are about 70 people involved, including MEPs, Clerks of the House, Members of the House of Lords and others.
The work of the armed forces parliamentary scheme under Sir Neil has significantly increased the level of understanding and awareness of our armed forces and, in particular, of the work done by our boys and girls on the ground. A significant cadre of Members of Parliament now truly understand what happens on the ground. MPs are embedded for up to 22 days a year, perhaps wearing some kind of uniform, and they get intimately involved with activities of our armed forces on a variety of levels. That is central to the excellence of the understanding that the scheme has brought to this place.
In that context, it is probably known around the House that there will be some changes coming to the armed forces parliamentary scheme. Sir Neil has indicated that he would like to see changes, and the Secretary of State for Defence and Mr Speaker have joined him in that. The scheme will soon be re-established as a charitable trust under nine trustees, and we very much look forward to its continuation under the slightly new format.
Two things are central. First, it seems to me essential that the armed forces parliamentary scheme should remain as it is, or very much like it is, for 25 or 50 years to come. It would be no good at all if we said right now, “That’s it. It has been great, but let’s say goodbye to it.” We must not do that—the armed forces parliamentary scheme plays a terribly important part in all our parliamentary debates. Secondly, there are all sorts of ways of doing this, but on this 25th anniversary of the scheme’s foundation, it is terribly important that we pay due respect to the fantastic contribution to the defence of the realm and to our understanding of it that Sir Neil and his wife have made. He has done a great job; it is right that we should acknowledge it.
Mr Arbuthnot
Does my hon. Friend agree that Sir Neil has not only put in a large amount of his own time and considerable expertise but has invested a large amount of his own money into creating the scheme, and that it is has proved so successful that it has been copied in other countries around the world and has given rise to similar schemes for the police, for example?
Mr Gray
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right: Sir Neil’s personal contribution in respect of time, money and, indeed, the excellent Lady Thorne has been significant. A similar scheme has been established in Australia and, as my right hon. Friend says, there is a similar police scheme in existence—in this Parliament, and who knows where else it might spread.
On an occasion such as today’s when we are talking about defence personnel, it is right to pay our respects to and honour those people who do things that we in the Chamber could not contemplate doing, although one or two of us have done them—my hon. Friend the Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti), for example, who is not in his place at the moment. He has had the great advantage of having spent six months in Afghanistan, with 36 hours of contact, firing a light gun at the enemy. Very few Members of Parliament have achieved anything of that kind; I think we should pay our respects to my hon. Friend for that.
It is right that we should make use of the armed forces parliamentary scheme, the all-party group for the armed forces and the welcome home parades. We should also celebrate the respects paid to the armed forces down the streets of Royal Wootton Bassett—or now in Carterton in Oxfordshire. The people of the United Kingdom and the Members of this House understand what a great contribution our armed forces make to the defence of our realm. It is right that we should convert that understanding into visible signs of it; various organisations do that very well.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I congratulate the right hon. Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot) on setting the scene so well, providing some focus for many of us. I thank other hon. Members who have also made significant, worthwhile and knowledgeable contributions to the debate, and those who will do the same in a few moments.
I begin by saying that I stand in support of the tremendous sacrifice and work that our defence personnel carry out every day of their lives. As a member of the armed forces parliamentary scheme—there are others dotted around the Chamber—I have been privileged to see a lot of what our soldiers, sailors, airmen and women do around the world, and it makes me even more thankful for the job they do, away from friends and family on the front line or in training or when stationed elsewhere. We do not always know what they daily go through—I know membership of the armed forces parliamentary scheme provides some indication of it—in service to Queen and country. We know that because of them there is freedom and democracy not only in this United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland but right across the world—and for that we are truly and immensely grateful.
Many of us will have watched films on TV based on the wars in the past—from the American war of independence, the American civil war and on to the Great war—and we all have seen the march of troops head on into the firing line. That is not the way wars are fought today: warfare has evolved, and the British Army has evolved with it, remaining the foremost Army in the world. I believe that this must remain so. We have obligations worldwide in the security of our nation and in playing our part to help those who are oppressed or living in injustice. Those aims must continue to be fulfilled by whatever shape the new Army takes. The British Army and this Government have not been found wanting when it comes to promoting those good objectives—in Iraq, in Afghanistan and elsewhere across the world.
I want to focus on the changes that will follow the withdrawal from Afghanistan and the draw-down from Germany, and to do so from a Northern Ireland perspective. I want to reflect on what the Army expects to look like then, and, more important, on Northern Ireland’s role in the 2020 British Army.
Northern Ireland has a rich military history. Although we are such a small part of the United Kingdom, our incredible level of military service—which is backed up by the figures—demonstrates that we are intrinsic to the make-up of the greatness of that great nation. It is clear from the fact that Northern Ireland contains only 3% of the United Kingdom’s population but provides 20% of the reserve forces on active service that we more than play our part. We have much to offer in Northern Ireland as a major part of the evolution of the armed forces.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
I understand that more Victoria Crosses have been awarded to Irishmen than to the English, the Scots and the Welsh put together. I congratulate the Irish on that.
Jim Shannon
The hon. Gentleman’s facts are absolutely correct. I thank him for what he has said. Let me also take the opportunity to thank him for the immense contribution that he has made in his former role as a soldier, both in Northern Ireland and elsewhere in the world, and in particular for the part that he played, as an officer in his regiment, in the peace that we now have in Northern Ireland. His contribution is not often mentioned, and I wanted to put it on the record.
By tradition, we in Northern Ireland have never had to be conscripted to provide service personnel. We go above and beyond our duty, and that should be acknowledged and respected. Although in many instances the troubles in Northern Ireland highlighted segregation, the Army and the cadets now recruit from all sectors of the community. I want to stress to the Minister the importance of our cadets and reserve forces to community involvement and community-building. The Army works hard in those different parts of the community to show people what a great career can be enjoyed in the forces.
Our cadet force recruitment has been second to none, crossing the religious and political divides. The highest levels of recruitment are from areas that are traditionally less supportive of the military—Strabane, Londonderry, Limavady and Enniskillen. The importance of the cadet forces to our society cannot be sufficiently underlined. Northern Ireland, in my view, has the most rationalised and efficient cadets in the United Kingdom. We develop a higher proportion of our soldiers and sailors on operations than any other region, and we have the most and the best recruitment in the UK.
The main link between the Ministry of Defence and the communities in Northern Ireland is first through the cadets and secondly through the reserves. The success story lies in the fact that people from what are, perhaps, the traditionally less supportive areas are now joining the cadets in rising numbers. The position must be enhanced in the future, and that demands a commitment from the Ministry of Defence: cadets today, reserves and a full-time Army tomorrow.
I believe that there is much scope for Northern Ireland to house and facilitate the training of troops in buildings that are already owned and operated by the British Army. I suggest that Thiepval barracks in Lisburn, which currently houses the 38th Brigade, should be retained and enhanced. The draw-down from Germany will provide an opportunity for that to be done. The garrison at Ballykinler and Palace barracks in Holywood provide accommodation and training facilities that are ready and waiting to be fully utilised—and, of course, we must not forget the facilities at Aldergrove, from which forces have already withdrawn. Again, the draw-down from Germany will provide scope for development.
Those buildings are already intrinsic parts of the community. Officers in the barracks ensure that there is co-operation with young people, and with the community as a whole. It makes a great deal of sense to me—and, I know, to other Northern Ireland Members, who unfortunately are not present today—for facilities that are already available to be part of the 2020 plan for the Army, and I ask the MOD to give that serious consideration. I look forward to the Minister’s response.
It is essential for the plan for the reserve forces to constitute 30% of Army numbers by 2018 to be realised through the use of the many troops that are currently trained and ready to go. Through the armed forces parliamentary scheme, I have had the opportunity—along with others, including the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart)—to visit our base in Cyprus, and to note the strategic importance of Cyprus in a very uncertain middle east. We need to be able to call upon fully trained and equipped personnel at any time, and I believe the reserves are a way to achieve that. Although these men and women are not in the Army full-time, they are trained to a very high standard. We must ensure the strength of the reserves does not diminish. We have built up expertise, and it should be utilised as needed. The reserves should form the foundation for the proposed changes, and the Northern Ireland reserve members are an important part of them. Given that, the Ministry of Defence must give commitments on Northern Ireland, as part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and its role in respect of the armed forces.
Everywhere I go in the world, I always come across serving personnel from Northern Ireland with links to my constituency. Fellow members of the armed forces parliamentary scheme have observed that, and they have expressed amazement that there are always such connections. From Afghanistan to Canada, and from Kenya to the Falklands to Cyprus, there is always a Northern Ireland link, which illustrates the commitment of people in Northern Ireland to Queen and country and the principles of freedom and democracy.
Angus Robertson
The hon. Gentleman talks of a specific Northern Ireland perspective, and he is no doubt aware that recently the service chiefs met representatives of the political parties from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland for the first time. His colleague, the hon. Member for North Antrim (Ian Paisley), was present as was the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd), and the discussions were valuable. Does the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) agree that they should be continued?
Jim Shannon
I entirely agree, and I would like the Minister to comment on that in his concluding remarks. The Northern Ireland link is clear and necessary.
I want to touch upon the importance of the Cyprus base. Cyprus has become a point of interest not only for Russia, but for China, and the strategic importance of Cyprus is underlined yet again by the fact that China wants to make Cyprus the base for its European operations. That is a small part of a bigger story.
Our Cyprus base provides training for soldiers going to Afghanistan and for officers from Sandhurst, and it is essential that it is retained after any shake-up. The right hon. Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot) mentioned soldiers coming home having a chance to unwind in Cyprus. It is a tremendous base and it has a major role to play in helping soldiers unwind from combat stress before going home.
In these times of economic uncertainty, people are having to look outside the normal comfort zones to find work. There is therefore a rise in Army recruitment everywhere, but especially among nationalists, which speaks volumes about how the younger generation see themselves. When the main town in my constituency, Newtownards, celebrated the homecoming of the Irish Guards, one soldier remarked to me that when they were told that some in Belfast did not want them to parade there, they were bemused as some members of their regiment were Catholics and Belfast was their hometown. I was told that there was no real sense of religion among the troops, and I know that to be the case: those who serve in the British Army are brothers, full stop.
I am pleased that recruitment is up, especially as many young people will find not simply a pay packet but a vocation for life. That feature must be encouraged in any changes in the armed forces. I am all for the armed forces changing, and I ask the Minister to say something about the possibility of using the Northern Ireland bases to facilitate the draw-down from Germany. I am today putting down the mark for Northern Ireland and for her to play a major role in the future of the armed forces in Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Captain Wilfred Spender of the Ulster Division’s HQ staff was quoted in the press as saying after the battle of the Somme:
“I am not an Ulsterman but yesterday, the 1st July, as I followed their amazing attack, I felt that I would rather be an Ulsterman than anything else in the world. The Ulster Division has lost more than half the men who attacked and, in doing so, has sacrificed itself for the Empire which has treated them none too well. Their devotion, which no doubt has helped the advance elsewhere, deserved the gratitude of the British Empire. It is due to the memory of these brave fellows that their beloved Province shall be fairly treated.”
Can anything different be said of our troops today, and can the response from the MOD be any different?
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
Thirty years ago tonight, at eight minutes past 11, a massive explosion rocked my house. At the time, I was a major commanding A Company, 1st Battalion, The Cheshire Regiment. I rang the guardroom, because I was the duty field officer, and was told, “We think the Droppin’ Well—the disco has been blown up.” I jumped into my car and was there within a minute. There was blackness where the Droppin’ Well was meant to be—everything else was in light—and there was silence. I took a torch from my car and went into what was left of the building. The first person I met was a soldier who was only 18. He had a huge stomach and he was crying—not crying like a baby, but moaning. He was Private Mark Young, one of my youngest soldiers. I said to him, “You’ll be all right. You’ll live. Just stay there.” He had a broken back, although I did not know it.
I went further on into the building and there I found another soldier, Private Harthern, who said, “Come over here, sir. Through that gap.” I looked through the gap and saw a girl called Tina Collins underneath the concrete. She was the wife of my clerk. She said, “I think Clinton isn’t moving sir.” I said, “Don’t call me sir, it doesn’t matter. You’ve got to stay there, Tina.” I left Private Harthern with her. Lance Corporal Clinton Collins had been promoted by me that day. He and I had played squash until about 8 o’clock that night. I had taken him home and he had said, “In celebration, sir, I am taking Tina out for a drink.” But at eight minutes past 11 he was dead.
I went on, and a boy stood up and asked me whether I was a doctor. I looked like a doctor—I was wearing a coat. I said, “No, I am not a doctor.” He said, “She needs a doctor.” I looked down and saw a girl lying on the ground, entirely mashed—legs gone, arm a wreck. I knelt down beside her and said, “Are you all right?” She said, “I think so.” I said, “Oh.” She said, “What’s happened?” I said, “There’s been a bomb, darling.” She said, “Am I hurt?” I said, “Quite a bit.” She said, “Am I badly hurt?” I said, “Yes, you are.” She said, “Am I going to die?” I said, “Yes.” She said, “Will you hold me?” And I did. Of course, this young girl died. She died in a state of grace. She died fully conscious that she was dying. And, thankfully, she died with no pain.
I then discovered that four of my soldiers who had been round a table were also hit. The first was dead and, rather like a pack of cards, after the first one had gone down the next one, who was on top of him, died in two hours and the third one died in three hours. The fourth, Lance Corporal William Bell, was trapped. I spoke to William Bell and eventually, when the doctors arrived, they said that they would have to cut his legs off because it had been four hours and the rule of thumb was that gangrene sets in in four hours. I said to him, “Corporal Bell, we are going to have to take your legs off.” He said, “One hell of a way to get out of the cross-country run, isn’t it, sir? No legs—good excuse for the regimental sergeant major.” He said it rather more in soldiers’ language than that, but bearing in mind that we are in the Chamber of the House of Commons I have modified the language.
It was a hell of a night. Things got worse, of course, because in the morning I was ordered by the commanding officer to identify my soldiers. That took four hours in Altnagelvin hospital morgue. In total, I had six men killed and more than 30 wounded. Eleven soldiers died that night and six civilians, three of them girls and all of them young. Today is the 30th anniversary of Ballykelly. I have the honour and privilege to be going there this weekend to remember those people.
Here is the point—the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) is not in her seat, but she has already made it: we have a responsibility to look after people into the future. It is very easy to concentrate on just the Afghanistan casualties or, indeed, the Iraq casualties, but we have had a lot of casualties in the armed forces and among our civilian population over the years, particularly during the troubles in Northern Ireland, where I lost far more men than anywhere else. In a way, it is understandable that we forget that we have lost so many people because we are concentrating on seeing our brave men and women coming back from Afghanistan.
Some people might see the people who have been hurt in previous wars, perhaps in a wheelchair or something like that, and say that they are a relic of the past. They probably do not say that, but they might think it. Those people might well be a relic of the past, but they live in the past. It is the past that has condemned their future. After all, Mark Young is only 48 and Lance Corporal William Bell cannot be more than 50, so we have a responsibility to them. I am using them as examples, because many more soldiers require to be looked after. We as a Parliament and we as a people are doing great things for our servicemen and servicewomen who are hurt now. As we have heard this afternoon, they get treatment that is world-beating.
I finish by saying this: remember that we also have men and women from previous conflicts who require world-beating care for the rest of their lives.
Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)
I feel quite inadequate to follow the speech of the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart). He and I are both Members of Parliament representing south-east London constituencies. It would probably be fair to say that we have very different political views, but after listening to the speech that he has just made, some of those political views become somewhat irrelevant, given what he said about his own experience in the armed forces, and what he and many others who serve in the Army, the RAF and the Navy see with their own eyes. I feel very honoured and privileged to have listened to the speech that he gave.
I shall make a brief contribution today. We have heard other speakers talk about important global issues relating to our defence forces, ranging from the withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan and their safety during that process to important aspects of the role of our defence forces in light of Britain’s emerging position in the world. I want to raise a specific issue about officers who are currently serving in our armed forces.
One of my constituents, Jayne Bullock, came to visit me a couple of months ago because her brother, who is a serving officer in the Army, had been issued with a redundancy notice earlier this year. He was given his redundancy date, which was only days before his immediate pension point. I understand that he will no longer be eligible to receive his pension immediately upon his redundancy, and that this represents a significant financial loss to him and his family. I understand that of the redundancy notices that were issued this summer, that situation affects about 70 or 80 serving officers.
We heard from the hon. Member for Beckenham the vital job that such officers do in our armed forces. The responsibility that goes with being an officer in our Army cannot be underestimated. They have to deal with situations such as that which the hon. Gentleman described. It is only right that those officers are given the pension that they are due. I believe that the compensation that has been arranged for them in some form of lump sum falls far short of what they would have received, had they got their pension at their immediate pension point.
Will the Minister, in his concluding remarks, explain to hon. Members what he plans to do about this problem in the future? Although it affects a certain number of people who received their redundancy notices this summer, the problem will continue as there will be further tranches of redundancies. Would it be possible not to make redundant those people who are less then 12 months away from their immediate pension point?
We are all here today speaking highly of our armed forces, but we need more than warm words. We need to put our money where our mouth is. Will the Minister look into the issues raised by the Pension Justice for Troops campaign that Jayne Bullock has established, and look at what else might be possible in respect of providing those individuals with appropriate compensation? I hope that if not today, then at some point in the future, he will be able to offer those service personnel some good news.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
I think that I speak for everyone present when I say that long after everything else that is said in this debate has been forgotten, everyone here today will remember the speech made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart). It is easy to see from the bravery with which he recounted his experiences in Northern Ireland those qualities of character and courage that led to him being decorated as he was in other combat theatres.
Today we are talking primarily about defence personnel issues, but I know that you will allow a small degree of latitude, Mr Deputy Speaker. Therefore, before referring to the two main areas on which I wish to concentrate, I will make a couple of slightly wider points of gentle disagreement. I have a gentle disagreement with the Government on the idea that it is adequate for a country with United Kingdom’s interests to spend 2% or 2.1% of GDP on defence. It is simply not enough as a proportion. As my hon. Friend the Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti) said, if we can spend 0.7% of GDP on overseas aid, we should be spending more than 2% or 2.1% on defence.
I have a very gentle disagreement with my right hon. Friend the Chair of the Defence Committee, who said that he now feels that it was right to name a date for withdrawal from Afghanistan because he can see the beneficial effects that it has had on the Afghan Government and Afghan forces in getting their act together. It is true that there has been a beneficial effect; there was always going to be. The effect we have to worry about is that which it will have on the enemy. They now know when we are going and that all they have to do is sit on their hands for long enough or, even worse, redouble their efforts to damage us in the run-up to our scheduled departure, in order to be able to claim that they drove us out of the country. Although I accept that there are some advantages in naming a departure date, I do not accept that it was the right thing to do.
I will now turn to what I should have started with, defence personnel, which is the subject of the debate. I wish to concentrate on two areas, one general and one specific. The general area relates to veterans and the conditions they face on leaving the armed forces. In order to do that, I will draw heavily on comments made to me by Dr Hugh Milroy, the charismatic chief executive officer of one of the oldest and most respected welfare organisations, Veterans Aid, which is based in Victoria. It is so long in the tooth that if one looks at its website, one will find that its parent organisation, which was set up following the first world war, has a film clip featuring the late Ralph Richardson showing in fictional form the sorts of employment problems faced by someone coming back from that terrible conflict and the way in which voluntary organisations were necessary to give them a chance of resuming normal life. Indeed, the number of injured veterans was so large following that terrible war that there was inevitably a feeling of disillusionment about the way they were treated by a grateful country after 1918.
We have published the military covenant, and it has quite a bit to say about housing. I will read a couple of brief extracts. The covenant says that serving personnel
“should have priority status in applying for Government-sponsored affordable housing schemes, and Service leaders should retain this status for a period after discharge.”
It also says:
“Members of the Armed Forces Community should have the same access to social housing and other housing schemes as any other citizen, and not be disadvantaged in that respect by the requirement for mobility whilst in Service.”
The problem that arises is what a local authority does if it has no housing available and all it has is a waiting list.
Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that situation is exacerbated many times over if the local authority happens to have a major garrison within its borders?
Dr Lewis
I not only agree with the hon. Gentleman but pay tribute to him. I have listened year in, year out while he has raised this subject consistently in debate after debate. He is a champion of service personnel in relation to housing matters.
I know something about this problem because I was recently approached in connection with the situation in the New Forest, a large part of which is protected, with very little available in the way of new housing. What happens if there is only a waiting list to offer to people? Should returning service personnel jump to the head of that waiting list over other people who have been on it for a considerable period? Dr Milroy says that his charity has seen many cases where individuals have taken a copy of the charter to the local authority,
“and the LA has laughed.”
He says that the real problem is that
“if there are no available houses it is a pointless exercise. Until the Government put resource behind this I can’t see things changing.”
Above all, he draws attention to the fact that we are heading for a “huge redundancy programme” that will result in a large increase in the numbers of ex- servicemen returning to civilian lives. Phrases such as “the emperor’s new clothes” feature in his remarks about the covenant, because, as he says, it is a fine idea but it will not change the situation unless backed by resources.
Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)
Given the challenges with service accommodation and some of the estates that we have, does my hon. Friend agree that there might be opportunities to introduce a right-to-buy scheme for armed forces families?
Mr Kevan Jones
I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman is aware that I started that scheme in the last four months of my time as veterans Minister, and the take-up showed that it was very popular.
Dr Lewis
I am delighted that there appears to be consensus across the House. Perhaps if the hon. Gentleman had been in post a little earlier than he was, he would have started the scheme a little earlier in Labour’s long period in office.
On a more positive note, Dr Milroy and his organisation recently had a considerable success when the Government acknowledged and accepted their campaign saying that minor military disciplinary offences should no longer be allowed to count against Commonwealth soldiers who, after their period of service to this country, often in dangerous theatres, were applying for British residency and British citizenship. It was a massive injustice that issues that would normally be regarded in civilian life as minor infractions and not criminal in any way were being used by, I believe, the UK Border Agency, against the applications of individual Commonwealth servicemen or ex-servicemen to become British citizens. I am glad that Hugh Milroy and Veterans Aid mounted a successful, high-profile campaign and that the Government listened to them.
Finally, I hope that the Government will be in similar listening mode with regard to a very high-profile case—I think I was the first MP to raise it on the Floor of the House—namely that of Special Air Service Sergeant Danny Nightingale. I am aware that the case is going to appeal on the question of conviction, so I will not stray into the issue of whether that appeal should succeed. I note with great pleasure that the appeal against sentence was successful and I was privileged to be present in the court. I thought it was absolutely grotesque to see a man of Sergeant Nightingale’s character and record in the barred dock of the court, but it was a great result that his sentence was reduced and suspended. He should never have been in custody in the first place.
The only point I wish to make is that Ministers should bear in mind that if the appeal is successful—I say if—the question will arise of whether there should be a retrial. I hope that, if the appeal against conviction is successful, Ministers will have the good sense to say that enough is enough and to make that opinion clear.
My mind goes back to one of the first service personnel campaigns that I was involved in when I came to this House in the late 1990s, namely the case of the two RAF Chinook pilots who were killed when their helicopter crashed into the Mull of Kintyre. That case dragged on and on, and for no good purpose. Lord Chalfont and others in the House of Lords, the right hon. and learned Member for North East Fife (Sir Menzies Campbell) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) in this House, and, I would like to think, many of us—in my case on the Back Benches and later on the then Opposition Front Bench, where I held a role similar to that held today by the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones)—pressed the case continuously. Our argument was that, given that the rules were changed after the crash so that no future pilots who were killed in a crash could ever be blamed in the way that they had been blamed, it was nonsensical and unfair that those whose case had led to the change in the rules should not benefit from it.
The same situation could well arise with Sergeant Nightingale. The Secretary of State for Defence has made it clear that he is considering—I hope that he will continue to consider it and, indeed, go ahead with it—an amnesty for other service personnel who have brought back and are holding on to, as trophies, weapons that should not still be in their possession. It would be absurd for the person whose trial had led to the amnesty—we should also remember that an amnesty has already been held locally, which led to other members of the SAS handing in a lot of unauthorised weapons—not to be given the benefit of the fact that an amnesty was now available for everyone else.
I will close as I began by saying that anything that any of us has to say pales into minor significance compared with what we heard from my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Beckenham. It was a privilege to be here during his speech.
Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)
We are rightly praising members of Her Majesty’s armed forces for all that they do for our country. Representing the garrison town of Colchester, the home of 16 Air Assault Brigade, this debate perhaps has an added significance for me, because the Army is such an important part of the life of my constituency and the surrounding area. Colchester is proud to be a garrison town, proud of its Army—regulars and reservists—and delighted that it brings so much benefit to the local economy.
However, we often do not express our appreciation for the army of civilians without whom the Army could not operate. I hope to make amends for that today. There are in excess of 1,000 jobs in Colchester that exist, directly or indirectly, because the Army is garrisoned in the town. Behind the 3,220 military personnel serving with HM armed forces at Britain’s most modern barracks, there is a civilian army of 280 Ministry of Defence civil servants. About 500 people are employed through the private finance initiative project under which the barracks was built a few years ago. There are also civilians who work for the Defence Support Group, which repairs and maintains a wide range of Army vehicles.
The civilian work force at Merville barracks and within the Army housing areas include those involved in clerical, cleaning and catering work, property and grounds maintenance, housing support, welfare, retail outlets and the messes—which have my personal vote of approval, along with the Musket club—and security support. The latter are civilians, but they are civilians in uniform.
In praising those who serve with the Ministry of Defence Police and Guarding Agency, I challenge the Minister to come clean this afternoon and say precisely what is the future of the Ministry of Defence police and the Ministry of Defence guard service. The number of MOD police officers covering the Colchester garrison was cut during the period of the last Labour Government from 33 to just three. Where once there was an MOD police presence throughout the Army housing areas, which have an estimated 3,000 dependants, wives and children, today the already over-stretched Essex constabulary has had the Army estates added to its workload. Army families tell me that the peace of mind that they once had is gone.
The lifestyle of ethos and discipline that is part of everyday Army life is not necessarily shared by all the civilians who now occupy the former Army houses that were privatised by the last Conservative Government. The current owner, Annington Homes, has made a financial killing, to the detriment of the public purse, through sell-ons and by building new houses on former Army land, which they bought for virtually nothing.
I urge the coalition Government to reverse Labour’s cuts in the MOD police numbers at the Colchester garrison and to resist any moves to reduce, or close completely, the MOD guard service. From personal experience, I know that the guards provide a level of maturity and knowledge of security that would be lost if they were replaced on the gate by, for example, young soldiers or even a private security firm such as G4S. Let us keep the expertise and knowledge that the Ministry of Defence guard service provides.
On a national perspective, does the Minister accept that further cuts to the MOD police would put at risk the security of important and strategic national assets for which the MOD police provide defensive armed policing as required? MOD police officers, unlike G4S for example, are authorised to carry arms outside the wire and have full constabulary powers, and the organisation has an investigative capability with its own criminal investigation department. Reducing the number of MOD police officers from 3,500 to about 2,600, as set out in the strategic defence and security review, is pure folly. National security interests must come before such cuts.
I referred briefly to the Defence Support Group, which in my youth was known as the Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers workshops and a few years ago as the Army Base Repair Organisation. The name may have changed, but its professionalism at the Colchester site is worthy of the highest praise. I invite the Minister to pay a visit. Last month in the Colchester business awards, it came first in the class for active and sustainable travel. It has seen cycling to work rise from 7% to 16% in the past two years. It has six pool bikes which are well used, including by senior management, for business visits around the far-flung Colchester garrison area. How many pool bikes are there at the Ministry of Defence offices in Whitehall?
It is right that the families of our military personnel should also be praised. The establishment over the past year or so of the military wives choirs—there are now more than 50—has been a success story that has resonated with the British people, which gives an indication of the nation’s appreciation. The work of the inspirational Gareth Malone, through his programme on BBC television, has led to a national movement under the Military Wives Choirs Foundation, which was established by the military charity SSAFA Forces Help. This time last year, the original choir had just performed at the Royal British Legion festival of remembrance at the Royal Albert hall and was on its way to the top of the charts at Christmas.
Three of the choirs have performed in the House of Commons, most recently on 7 November when the Colchester military wives choir sang in the atrium of Portcullis House. Bookings have flooded in, and next Thursday evening it will perform a joint concert with the band of the Parachute Regiment at St Botolph’s church in Colchester. I will be there.
I am so proud of the Colchester choir. Travelling costs for its visit to Westminster were funded by the Colchester-based company Call Assist—an example of how local businesses support soldiers and their families in the same way as the community supports our soldiers. We witness that every Remembrance day when 3,000 people attend commemorations at the Colchester war memorial, with a march along the high street before and afterwards. We remember those who died in past conflicts as well as more recent deaths in Afghanistan.
I take this opportunity to thank the Royal British Legion, ABF—the soldiers’ charity, formerly known as the Army Benevolent Fund—Help for Heroes, and other military and service charities for the sterling work they do to help locally and nationally. I also wish to express my appreciation to Veterans Aid and Combat Stress for the special support they provide to former military personnel who have hit particularly personal difficult times.
I am delighted that the Colchester military festival will return next year, and I am confident that it will attract some 20,000 members of the public as it did in the past. It is a fantastic showcase for the Army and I invite as many Defence Ministers as possible—and other hon. Members—to come and share the experience, which I am confident is without equal in the UK.
Before I make my final point, I will repeat what I said previously. Families of our military personnel deserve a higher quality and condition of family housing than is often the case. Maintenance and modernisation programmes must not be delayed. That is a false economy as well as being damaging to the morale of those who live in such poor conditions.
Having paid tribute to our armed forces through personal experience and knowledge of the wider Army family in my constituency, participation in the armed forces parliamentary scheme, and membership of the Defence Committee, I must tell the Minister—quite bluntly—that cutting the size of Her Majesty’s armed forces is not in the national interest. He may remember that earlier this year I challenged the Prime Minister on that very point. The first duty of any Government is to defend the national interest at home and overseas. For that to be achieved, we must have armed forces to deal with situations that might arise. Reducing the size of the Army to its lowest level in 200 years is not in the national interest, and I will continue to argue that point.
Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)
I, too, congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot) on securing this debate, and thank the Backbench Business Committee for supporting it. It is a privilege to speak for two reasons. First, we have today the publication of the first ever armed forces covenant annual report, which I will read with interest when I eventually get down to Devon tonight. Secondly, I have the enormous privilege to represent Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport which, as hon. Members may know, is the home of 3 Commando Brigade, which saw action in Afghanistan a couple of years ago.
My constituency also contains the Haslar unit that deals with members of the armed services who have lost limbs and need assistance. It does an incredibly good job. My constituency and that of the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) contain HMS Heroes, which looks after the children of service families and does a very good job. I share half of the original military wives choir with the hon. Member for North Devon (Sir Nick Harvey), and I am delighted that this time last year I was able to play a small part in ensuring that VAT from the choir’s No. 1 hit, “Wherever you are”, was given to the Royal British Legion and the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families Association. I am grateful that the Government did so much on that.
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) for making his visit later this weekend. Will he take our best wishes and thanks to family members who lost their loved ones in that appalling atrocity 30 years ago to the day? Only too often, we tend to forget the families.
I want to talk about mental health, housing and reservists. This year, national armed forces day took place in Plymouth. It was used as an opportunity by the local authority to sign its community covenant, which is a useful thing. The covenant demonstrates that the town, which is one of the principal naval garrison towns in the country, the local authority and the whole community are keen to ensure that we thank those who serve. There is an enormous amount of emotional support for our armed services, especially our Royal Marines and Royal Navy, and we need to ensure that it continues.
We must not forget the partners and children of our armoured service personnel. They bear the brunt of dealing with the more complex issues. In many cases, they are the one group of people who immediately see that their husbands, wives or partners are suffering from mental health issues. They deal with it. Only when it becomes apparent can commanding officers pick up on it. When service personnel are called away on deployment, their partners—for want of a better expression—have to keep their families together and manage the household, including paying the bills and those kinds of things. They must also ensure that service personnel wind down and settle back when they return from deployment.
That can be difficult. I have told this story before, but I will tell it again because it is an important one. The reservists were on exercises and training on Woodbury common, which is in the constituency of the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for East Devon (Mr Swire). I asked one of them how he was getting on. He said, “Fine, but when I came back from Afghanistan and I went to my wife and my family home up in Aylesbury”—he lived away from his base—“she said, ‘Don’t start talking to me about all the problems you’ve got. I’ve had a horrendous day. I’ve answered 300 e-mails today.’” Perhaps she works for a Member of Parliament, but he said to her, “I’ve was under mortar fire for eight hours during my time in Afghanistan.”
The reservist found it difficult to communicate to his wife on the subject, and he also had difficulty speaking to his civilian mates. Only fellow Royal Marines were able to take on board what he said and had that common interest. My hon. Friend the Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti) had similar experiences when he came back from deployment. We must ensure that we continue to work very hard on delivering our mental health strategy in line with “Fighting Fit”, which was produced by the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison)—what a good job he did!
However, we have more to do. We must ensure that our reservists can access much needed support. If we do not, we are letting people down. During my visit to HMS Haslar, I was told by the Royal Marines that they had done an enormous amount of work on trauma risk management, or TRiM. I was impressed, although my hon. Friends who speak about the Army might have a different view. We had a breakfast in Parliament, where the Royal Marines described the professional job they do to help some of their younger people through combat stress—I suspect it was called shell shock or similar in my grandfather’s day.
On my visit to HMS Haslar, I heard about Q fever, an illness that some end up having, and how difficult people find it to access support and funding. I am delighted to read in the report on the covenant that the Government have taken on board the Care Quality Commission’s report, to establish unified Ministry of Defence primary health care. I hope GPs will be given training so they understand what is going on, especially in places such as Plymouth, to which many servicemen and women return. Some GPs do not have the training in mental health that they need.
On housing, before I was elected to this place I came across an officer in the Coldstream Guards who told me that during his deployment—in Iraq, I think—he had called his wife for a 45-minute conversation. The conversation began with his wife spending a good 30 minutes talking about how a leak in the roof had totally ruined the sofa that they had bought on credit, and that left him only 15 minutes to talk about their children and parents. We have to ensure that we look after accommodation, and the Government have done well to make significant changes. In 2008, a third of Navy personnel said they were satisfied with the quality of housing, leaving two thirds who were not. Under-25s and single people were also unhappy with their housing. We need to ensure that housing is modernised, and I would welcome an extension of the right-to-buy scheme for military personnel.
My final point is about reservists. From conversations I have had with Royal Marines, I know that they are concerned about training and whether they will be deployed as a unit or individually. If we are going to reduce our regular forces and make greater use of our reservists, it is important that they are given proper training and decompression activity when they come back. Let me make this final point, too. Reservists do not necessarily live on camp; they often live elsewhere, and so their opportunity to talk to their wives or fellow reservists is limited. We need to ensure that our reservists are better informed.
Finally, I completely agree with the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) on how important it is that as a country we are not sea blind.
My final point—[Laughter]—concerns the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson), so I am delighted that he is back in the Chamber. I wonder whether he and the Scottish National party are sending a confusing message. They want services in Scotland, but if it gains independence they want to get rid of the submarines and the naval bases.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Well, if there is not a fifth final point, I will call Penny Mordaunt.
Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North) (Con)
I was tempted to say “Finally”, Mr Deputy Speaker. I draw the House’s attention to my interest as a member of the reserve forces.
It is appropriate that I started today in Portsmouth at the rededication service of the Falklands memorial plantation on Portsdown hill. It is right that we remember those who made the ultimate sacrifice, acknowledge the courage and professionalism of all those involved in securing that victory and celebrate their legacy. We should do the same for our armed forces in Afghanistan. I know that not all Members agree with our mission in Afghanistan, but, whether we are pro or anti, we must acknowledge not only the skills, courage and professionalism of our armed forces, but their achievements —and not only those achievements in the area of our own national security.
I was in Afghanistan last week with the Defence Committee. While in Lashkar Gah, we had the privilege of meeting members of the provincial peace council. We saw a town that had new schools, including girls’ schools, and whose new governor was in India at a cotton expo, and around us were car lots, wedding shops and all sorts of businesses springing up. We were patting them on the back for their remarkable achievements, but their response was clear. They said, “These achievements are not ours. They are the achievement of your brave armed forces.” They have created the security, space and stability for those lasting changes to occur. I wonder whether, if we added up everything we all might achieve in our long—in my case short—political careers, it would ever come close to the achievement of our troops out there.
Our troops have achieved something else. This is a subtler point. The presence of such professional, diverse and well respected forces has changed for ever the view of the Afghan people of what it means to wear a uniform. When we were out there, President Karzai said that no rich men’s sons were in the Afghan army, but I think that will change because of the presence of our armed forces. We need to talk about that, especially as transition takes place.
We also need to tell our troops that. While I was in Lashkar Gah, I visited a forward operating base called Sparta. Speaking to Afghans in the neighbouring base, I learned that the further away they were from centres of communication in Kabul and Bastion, the less they knew about the achievements being made. We should be putting those achievements on paper-based communications to our troops, perhaps even on their daily or weekly orders. I raised that point before I left the country, and I hope that the Minister will take it up. I can give him a head start: I think that Radio 1 is broadcasting from Afghanistan next week. I hope he will phone up and give a long list of our armed forces’ achievements.
That leads me on to communications. This is a time of immense change for our armed forces, and there are complex personnel issues that have to be dealt with. The MOD has an extremely good internal communications plan, but it is no good if that information cannot be accessed in a timely fashion. There is a problem with people being able to access joint personnel administration, because there are too few secure computer terminals in units. That issue has been raised many times with me, and I am not just talking about the reserves. Surprisingly, not everyone has a personal e-mail account—I met several sergeant-majors in Bastion who did not have one—so it is difficult to get information to people quickly. If we want our armed forces to respond to consultation, especially if they are on JPA, we must do better.
The other communications issue I wish to touch on is a localised one to do with Afghanistan and Camp Bastion in particular. During Operation Herrick 9, our armed forces had free access to the internet, and although they have some access now, it is limited and they have to pay $90 a month to access wider broadband services, such as those that allow them to Skype their family. I raised this issue before I left the country. It is being looked into, but I am sure the Minister will want to know what can be done, especially as transition continues and welfare issues get pared down, as my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot) pointed out. Being able to Skype back home will become even more important as troops pull out. I hope the Minister takes that on board.
Penny Mordaunt
I am sorry; I am very short on time.
On welfare services, I pay tribute to all who support and honour our armed forces, particularly—I hope hon. Members forgive me; I have my Portsmouth hat on—the Naval Families Federation and the Royal Navy and Royal Marines charities, which do an amazing job. I want to raise with the Minister again the Service Complaints Commissioner. The role needs to become an ombudsman. We need to review the rules that categorise a complaint as an employee grievance—if the person making a complaint is killed in action, it is dropped and not pursued. I urge the Minister to make best use of Dr Susan Atkins while she is still in post. She has done a tremendous job. He should encourage her to do the review that she wants to do before she goes.
I pay tribute to our armed forces. We do not talk about them enough in this place—actually, we never could—but at least we have had the opportunity to do that today.
Mr Kevan Jones
I congratulate the right hon. Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot) and the Backbench Business Committee on selecting this afternoon’s debate. Let me put on record everyone’s thanks and tributes to the members of our armed forces and their families, who are an integral part of the defence of our country. I also agree with the hon. Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell) about the army of civil servants and civil contractors, without whose support we could not deploy forces.
There have been 11 very good contributions to today’s debate. The right hon. Member for North East Hampshire talked about Afghanistan. I agree that the deadline has focused minds in Afghanistan; my concern is about what role UK armed forces will play post-2014. There is a naive assumption that a training role will be without its dangers, but the people performing training roles with the embedded teams in Iraq were in harm’s way. We need clarification from the Government on that before 2014, because people will be in harm’s way. We also need to know what our armed forces’ footprint will be in Afghanistan post-2014.
The right hon. Gentleman also talked about the Service Complaints Commissioner, as did the hon. Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt). This was a tremendous success for the Defence Committee, following its report on the duty of care in the last Parliament, although I agree with the hon. Lady that the next step needs to be some type of ombudsman—a proposal that was in the original report to give the post teeth. I, too, pay tribute to the Service Complaints Commissioner, who has done a first-rate job in not only highlighting and dealing with complaints, but getting the trust of senior members of the armed forces.
My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) raised the issue of medical support for our armed forces. She, like me, was heavily criticised at the time for the closure of Army, Navy and RAF-dedicated hospitals, but in hindsight it was the right thing to do. She rightly paid tribute to the Queen Elizabeth hospital and the investment that has gone into it, as well as the dedicated NHS staff working closely alongside the military personnel, breaking new ground not only with new surgical techniques but by keeping people alive who even a matter of years ago would not have survived, as she rightly said. However, I have concerns about how the NHS integrates with the Army recovery capability—which she also raised—which is something I am glad the Government are committed to. We need to ensure a seamless transition into civilian life for those people, and that they get the appropriate NHS care once they have left the armed forces.
My hon. Friend made some interesting points about finance in relation to the strategic defence and security review. No one will be surprised when I reiterate that the SDSR was not a defence review but a budget-led, Treasury-led review. As a nation, we need to ask what our role is in the world. That was not done as part of the SDSR, as it was led by the Treasury. That led to some of the mistakes that are now being unpicked as the new Secretary of State tries to get to grips with the situation.
The hon. Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti) talked about the defence budget. The Government keep pushing the myth that they started with a £38 billion black hole, even though no one has yet been able to explain the calculations behind that figure. The original National Audit Office report said that there would be a £6 billion black hole if the budget continued on its present basis. The only way of arriving at a figure of £36 billion would be to add flat cash over 10 years and to include everything in the equipment programme. That still leaves an unexplained extra £2 billion. Members will be pleased to know that I am now on Twitter, and I had an interesting exchange last night with the former Minister for defence procurement, the hon. Member for Mid Worcestershire (Peter Luff), who told me that the figure was even higher than £38 billion. If that is the case, why do we not know what it actually is?
That brings me to the Ministry of Defence’s annual report and accounts, which make great reading. It is interesting that claims by the previous and present Secretaries of State to have balanced the budget are nowhere to be seen in the introduction. It will also come as no surprise that the accounts for this year have been qualified.
Mr Arbuthnot
May I gently draw the attention of the shadow Minister to the fact that the accounts were qualified in every year under the last Labour Government as well?
Mr Jones
I acknowledge that, but I did not make wild claims about somehow having magicked away a £38 billion black hole in two years, which the Secretary of State is now doing.
The hon. Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke mentioned Defence Equipment and Support, and I agree with him that there is uncertainty in that regard that needs early resolution. He might be interested to know that the accounts show that the average length of time that the MOD equipment programme was delayed in 2010-11 was 0.46 months, and that the figure has now increased to 5.5 months. No great progress has been made in the efficiency of the delivery of that programme.
Another startling fact to emerge from the annual report and accounts is that the Department has not received approval for the remuneration package for the Chief of Defence Matériel, who is earning considerably more than the Prime Minister. It has been suggested that the Department has somehow acted outside its authority in this regard. We need clarification of some of the issues raised in the annual report and accounts.
We keep being promised an explanation of the Secretary of State’s assertion that the defence budget is now in balance. On 14 May and 11 June, he told the House that he would shortly publish the figures, and he told the Defence Select Committee on 12 July that the NAO report would be published in September and that it would explain exactly how he had balanced the budget. The hon. Member for Newark (Patrick Mercer) raised an interesting point about this matter.
Yesterday, during the Chancellor’s statement, it was mentioned almost as an aside that defence had somehow got off lightly, given the further 1% cuts that other Departments were being asked to make—but that is not the case. It will have to swallow cuts of its own, and, according to The Daily Telegraph today, that will involve another £1.3 billion coming out of defence. It is important that we get clarification of this so-called balancing of the budget, when it is clearly not in balance. We also need an explanation of where the original figure of £38 billion came from.
The reason that is important is that members of our armed forces and their families know that we are in tough times and that they have to take some share of the pain. What they do not want to see, however, are spurious figures and spurious claims made to justify some of what is being done. There are only two ways of getting money quickly out of the defence budget: either by cutting the number of personnel or by cutting in-year programmes, leaving capability gaps, which is what the strategic defence and security review has done.
The hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson) made some points about Germany and rebasing. We have been promised a statement next week, so it will be interesting to see whether that comes forward. I thought it completely bonkers when the right hon. Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) made the announcement. I looked at the issue when I was a Minister, so I know that four years ago the price tag was £3.5 billion—but where that is coming from, I do not know. It is important to have clarification not only for the reasons that the right hon. Gentleman gave regarding communities and individuals here, but because we must know what is actually happening for our servicemen and women along with civil servants, educationalists and others based in Germany. If the cost was £3.5 billion then, it is surely a lot higher today. It is not just about bringing people back, as it is also about evaluating the costs of withdrawal—environmental and other costs that will be added to the clean-up of those areas. Under the treaty with the Germans, it is quite clear that two years’ written notice has to be given, but I am not aware that that has happened. I do not mind if the Government have changed their policy on this issue, but they should say so, as we do not want the uncertainty.
The hon. Member for Moray spoke about the so-called future Scottish armed forces, claiming that they will comprise 15,000. I am not sure what type of role they will take: if they are to be in NATO, what would they deploy? Will the army act as a border force to stop riotous Northumbrians crossing the border? Will there be a navy of fishing boats? Will the air force be of gliders? In this debate, it is important for the Scottish National party not only to deal with the present lay-down of armed forces, as the hon. Gentleman has, but to be honest with people and say what the future defence structure would look like in an independent Scotland.
I join the hon. Member for North Wiltshire (Mr Gray) in paying tribute to Wootton Bassett and to Sir Neil Thorne. I also commend the hon. Gentleman’s role on the marching parades, which have been supported across the parties.
I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) for his quite proper recognition of the contribution of people from Northern Ireland to the armed forces. I visited Northern Ireland when I was a Minister, and I was very impressed by the dedication I found there to all three of our armed forces.
I know that on many occasions the hon. Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) adopts a light-hearted approach in his contributions to the House. Today, however, he made a very serious contribution, which I think shows the House of Commons at its best. He paid tribute to the victims of the Droppin’ Well bombing. It must have been very difficult for him to relive some of those experiences today, so I pay tribute to him for doing so. He is right that 30 years seems a long time ago, but not for him and the people who were there. Speaking as he did in this debate greatly honours those people and pays a fitting tribute to their memories. I hope that his contribution gives some comfort to those who were injured in the ways he described and to the families, relatives and friends of those who lost their lives.
The hon. Member for Beckenham mentioned another matter, and his position was the same as mine when I was veterans Minister. It is fine to get things right now for veterans and those injured in conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. My concern, in common with the hon. Gentleman’s, is what happens to these people in 20, 30 or 40 years’ time. We, as a society and a nation, owe a great debt of gratitude to those individuals. Irrespective of our political parties, we need to ensure that that remains the case. I hope that the work with service charities in relation to the Army recovery capability scheme, which is in the pipeline, involves something of that joined-up approach, but we shall have to monitor this on a yearly basis. We shall need to look after the people to whom the hon. Gentleman referred—who are already injured as a result of service in Afghanistan and Iraq—when they are older. There can be no if or but; we must do that.
When it comes to housing—the favourite subject of the hon. Member for Colchester—we must ensure that we continue to listen to the views of the British Armed Forces Federation.
Let me end by saying that it is always good to hear such well-informed contributions, and by again paying tribute to our brave servicemen and women.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Mr Mark Francois)
I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot) on helping to secure the debate, and thank the Backbench Business Committee for providing time for it. It has been a good debate, and I shall attempt to refer to as many contributions as is practically possible in the time available.
My right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire, the Chairman of the Select Committee, raised several issues. Let me deal briefly with one of them, which was also raised by other Members. It concerned the Service Complaints Commissioner. I met Dr Atkins recently to discuss how we could help her to perform her very independent role. I hope that the dialogue on which we have embarked will prove productive, and I look forward to meeting her again in the new year.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Portsmouth North (Penny Mordaunt) on her recent commissioning as a sub-lieutenant in the Royal Naval Reserve. In debates such as this, it is always reassuring to know that the Royal Navy is sitting behind me, particularly as my father served in the Royal Navy.
I thank my Essex colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Sir Bob Russell), for his contribution. He raised a range of issues, and, as usual, he had a long wish list. I can tell him that I was present when the Colchester Military Wives Choir performed in Portcullis House, and that I thanked them at the end of their performance. I visited Colchester garrison about a year ago, as a member of the Committee that dealt with the Bill that became the Armed Forces Act 2011, thus helping to enshrine the key principles of the covenant in law. I have met representatives of the Defence Police Federation and trade union representatives of the Ministry of Defence Guard Service, and I hope to return to Colchester early in the new year. I hope that that satisfies the hon. Gentleman, at least for the moment. I will not mention the meeting that I had with him at the MOD yesterday on a different topic.
This debate falls on the day on which we publish the first annual report on the armed forces covenant, which is a subject of great importance and should be given due regard. For too long we may have sometimes taken for granted the special nature of military service: a willingness, if necessary, to lay down one’s life for one’s country. I echo the tributes that have been paid to the extremely moving and powerful speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart), who reminded us of the tragedy of the Ballykelly bombing 30 years ago. I am sure that he will do good service when he returns to commemorate that very difficult anniversary at the weekend.
Let me also remind the House, if it needs reminding, that today, as I speak, men and women are on patrol in Afghanistan, helping to keep us safe from terrorism at home. We must and will go the extra mile for them for their families, and for the roughly one in 10 adults in the United Kingdom who are veterans. That is a very important statistic.
The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) also mentioned the covenant. We had a very good debate about it in the House last month. Let me update the hon. Gentleman on the points that were raised. There is a difficulty with local authorities in Northern Ireland signing the community covenant because it could be argued in some quarters that it conflicts with equalities legislation. That point was made powerfully in the debate. We have now formed a working group of officials from the MOD and the Northern Ireland Office to try to find a way through the difficulty, and I know that the hon. Gentleman and others are to have a meeting with the Prime Minister fairly shortly. We will do our best to come up with a solution.
It is simply unacceptable that past or present service personnel should be denied equal access to the services on which we all depend. Creating a fair deal for our armed forces past and present is at the core of the armed forces covenant. That is why in the Armed Forces Act 2011 this Government enshrined in law the two key principles of the covenant: that it is desirable to remove disadvantages arising as a result of service or former service; and that special provision for service personnel and their families may be justified to mitigate the effects of service, especially for the wounded or bereaved. I believe we are making a good start, but it is arrogant in the extreme to believe we can solve the many long-standing issues—some of which have been raised by Members this afternoon—in a single year.
Today’s first statutory report covers progress over the full scope of the armed forces covenant, including the four fields specified in the 2011 Act: health care, education, housing and the operation of inquests. I shall address each in turn.
On health care, the covenant has a particular resonance for those who have suffered injuries or health problems in the service. The importance we place on this is exemplified by the sign above the door of Colonel Kevin Beaton, commanding officer of the Royal College of Defence Medicine in Birmingham:
“The military patient, their Family and their Unit, we call our ‘Patient Group’. They are the most important people in The Royal Centre for Defence Medicine Clinical Unit. It is our privilege to be entrusted with the care and support of our Patient Groups on behalf of an indebted nation. We are not doing them a favour by looking after them. They are the reason we are here. Proudly serving them provides the overriding purpose behind all we do. They are our Main Effort.”
I can think of no finer way of expressing that sentiment, and I hope all Members agree with it, not least the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart), as she has the privilege of having that unit in her constituency.
I take medical treatment for our armed forces personnel very seriously. In the three months I have been in post, I have sought to learn as much as possible about the medical support we provide to them. I have visited the Role 3 hospital at Camp Bastion, the Queen Elizabeth hospital in Birmingham, the Defence Medical Rehabilitation Centre at Headley Court, the personnel recovery centre at Tedworth house—run by that wonderful charity, Help for Heroes—and the headquarters of Defence Medical Services near Lichfield. Most recently, I had the honour to participate in a game of wheelchair basketball at the new Battle Back centre at Lilleshall, which I helped to open, and I can attest that fighting spirit and competitiveness are still present in abundance when that sport is played; I still have the blisters on my hands to prove it.
In the course of those visits, I have seen the medical process end to end, and I can say with confidence that the treatment we provide to injured personnel is world class, a sentiment that I know is shared by, among others, our American counterparts. Wherever they are in the world, the men and women who provide this care should be immensely proud that the Care Quality Commission described the provision as exemplary. It is.
On education, the pledges made in the covenant are being well received by schools and service families alike. The Department for Education allows infant schools to increase class sizes beyond 30 to admit the children of service personnel. Where resources permit, admissions authorities also have the flexibility to give priority admission to these children.
Oxfordshire county council has altered its schools admissions policy, allowing places to be allocated to children of service families in advance of a posting, based on a letter from the relevant unit. That is a small change, but it has a very big impact, as it gets around the Catch-22 that people cannot apply for a school place until they have moved to an area, and if they move after the beginning of the school year they are caught. We have changed the rules, and this change is being mirrored by a number of local education authorities around the country, with the backing of the Department for Education.
My hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), the hon. Member for Colchester and others raised the subject of housing, and it remains a key issue for the armed forces community. Today’s report points to areas of progress, but also acknowledges that more needs to be done. Some 94% of accommodation for service families is in the top two of four categories. The single living accommodation modernisation programme has delivered almost 5,000 modernised, en-suite rooms in 2011-12, and we are on track to meet our target of 50% of trained personnel being housed in the highest standard of accommodation by March 2013.
In parallel, we are encouraging service families to explore the choice of owning their own home. Armed forces personnel have been placed at the top of the priority list for all Government-funded home ownership schemes, and service leavers retain that status for up to 12 months after leaving. The level of home ownership among service families has risen from 55% to 60% over the past two years.
Next I shall deal with the operation of inquests. Tragically, operations in Afghanistan have shown, once again, that members of our armed forces can face mortal danger. Above all else, that is why we owe them not only our respect, but the peace of mind that we will care for their families in the event of their death. We should do everything to ensure that the plight of grieving families is not compounded by inadequacies in helping them to understand the circumstances in which their loved ones died. I am encouraged that waiting times for coroners’ inquests have been falling since 2003, including under the previous Government, and maintaining that trend will be a priority. This year, the Government fulfilled their pledge to appoint a chief coroner—we appointed Peter Thornton—and to publish a new national charter for the coroner service. I will meet Mr Thornton on 18 December to discuss how the Ministry of Defence can assist him further in what we agree is vital work.
Steps have also been taken in a number of additional areas to uphold the values and ideals of the covenant. We recognise, for example, that the process of adapting to civilian life can be daunting. Through the career transition partnership, the MOD provides outstanding career support to service leavers, with the result that 97% of those who use that service will find employment within 12 months. That is an impressive record.
We also encourage local authorities to appoint armed forces champions as a voice within local government, where a great many pledges within the covenant are delivered. In this regard, I am delighted to report to the House that some 230 local authorities in England, Scotland and Wales have signed the community covenant—this is spreading like a benign virus—and I sincerely hope that almost all will have done so by Remembrance day next November.
As announced recently in this House, the new defence discount service will offer a membership card allowing members to access a range of discounts from companies such as Vodafone, Vue Cinemas and Vision Express. I was delighted to join the Prime Minister yesterday to present cards to a number of veterans and serving personnel.
I also wish to express my gratitude for the contribution of the covenant reference group, which includes voluntary and charitable bodies, private organisations and individuals. The Government committed themselves to publishing the external members’ observations verbatim, alongside the annual report, and today we uphold that promise.
Of particular concern to the families federations is service accommodation. They comment that the
“availability of Service Families Accommodation in some areas is insufficient”
and that
“higher priority must be given to maintaining and enhancing the quality of all Service-provided accommodation”.
To many service families, a decent home is the physical embodiment of the covenant. We are working to address these concerns, and I hope we will be in a position to provide further information to the House in due course.
Members of the reference group acknowledged the high priority given to the covenant by the Prime Minister, the Cabinet Office and the MOD. The appointment of a chief coroner was described as being “hugely significant” and
“of real long-term benefit to bereaved Armed Forces families”.
There is praise also for our progress in addressing disadvantage for armed forces children and in providing better support to deployed personnel and their families. Most encouraging to me is the observation that the covenant is changing attitudes to the armed forces community.
I must allow the Chairman of the Select Committee back in, so I shall draw my remarks to a close. The armed forces covenant is a work in progress, an ongoing pledge that has support from those in all parts of the House. Each and every year we will come before this House with, to borrow a military term, a “SitRep”, giving a state of play on the covenant and our obligations under it. While I hold this post, I am absolutely determined that we will demonstrate real progress year on year, put flesh on the bones of the covenant and honour the people to whom we owe so much.
Mr Arbuthnot
With the leave of the House, Mr Deputy Speaker, may I start my contribution, after a debate in which it has been a great privilege to take part, on a note of disagreement? In a year in which we have celebrated Her Majesty’s diamond jubilee and the greatest Olympics the world has ever seen, I must disagree with the suggestion of the hon. Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart) that we may be losing our sense of self. I think we are a prouder nation now than we have ever been, and we have every reason to be proud. One of the greatest reasons to be proud is our armed forces.
In a few short sentences, my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) reminded us what it is that we owe to our armed forces and of our duty to look after those who have looked after us so well. He reminded me of what a privilege I have in charing the Defence Committee of this House.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That this House has considered the matter of defence personnel.
Ex-service Personnel (Psychological Welfare)
(12 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)
As chair of the Unite the Union group in Parliament and of the all-party group on health and safety, I have spent most of my working life in politics standing up for people who have been disadvantaged because of the career they have chosen. As Major Cameron March MBE, from the Army’s operational stress management team, recently said:
“If we put people into difficult places we’ve got to have something in place to look after them”.
That is true in all walks of life, whether we are dealing with builders exposed to asbestos, lorry drivers travelling over long hours or, as I will speak about this evening, service personnel exposed to traumatic experiences. The issue I have brought to the House today seems to me to be an extreme example of occupational health and safety. As employers, we have a responsibility to those brave individuals to ensure they can live a fulfilling life following their service.
I was delighted to read in one of the tabloid papers today that the Prime Minister has announced £1 million for veterans’ charities. I would like to say, “It was this debate wot done it”, but something inside tells me that another event is taking place tonight that has been organised by one of the tabloid papers. The £1 million is welcome and I am sure the veterans will appreciate it.
Post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD as it is now known, is not a new phenomenon. It was first identified during the first world war, and was called “shell shock”. We have moved on since then and correctly recognise that it is a serious condition that in no way undermines the brave work undertaken by our armed forces. Despite that, there is still a significant stigma attached to mental health issues among veterans. Many still consider themselves “weak” if they suffer in the adjustment to civilian life.
A culture change among veterans is needed, but for policymakers that is difficult to achieve. However, if the Government direct more funding to the condition, which is what I shall argue for today, we can give hope to those suffering and help them to recognise that they are not weak and that the condition is a natural reaction to the horrors they have seen.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
Will my hon. Friend pay tribute to the work of Dr Ian Palmer and the medical assessment programme at St Mary’s? Until recently it was open to all veterans who could go for individual psychological assessments. That has now been downgraded and moved to Chilwell in Nottinghamshire. Does my hon. Friend share my concern about that and agree that open access, even later in life, is important for veterans?
Jim Sheridan
I am not aware of the precise details, but I am extremely disappointed to hear that. I am sure that the Minister will address that when he gets the opportunity.
My right hon. colleague, the Minister for the Armed Forces, has said that he
“takes the issue of mental health very seriously, and we recognise that operational deployments will inevitably expose personnel to stressful experiences.”—[Official Report, 12 June 2012; Vol. 546, c. 447W.]
Similarly, when he was a Health Minister, the right hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns), claimed that the coalition Government
“considers the health and wellbeing of…armed forces personnel, veterans and their families to be a top priority.”—[Official Report, 18 June 2012; Vol. 546, c. 801W.]
I agree with these sentiments, as I am sure we all do. Those veterans have put their lives on the line so that we can be safe. They have done a great service for their country and they deserve the top service from their country in return. So why then do the actions of Ministers not speak louder than their words? Their statements are commendable, but their funding commitments are not. I am calling today for more public funding to be directed to the issue and for the psychological well-being of our veterans to be considered a top priority.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
The hon. Gentleman referred to the great work done by charitable organisations —for instance, SSAFA Forces Help, the Army Benevolent Fund, the Royal British Legion, Help for Heroes and many others. Would it be more constructive if the Government were to work with those charitable organisations to address the problem?
Jim Sheridan
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that contribution. I will come to that important aspect.
It is important that we tackle the issue now as we are only a few years away from it becoming more serious. The Prime Minister confirmed at the end of November that the combat mission in Afghanistan will end in 2014. With this will come the return of thousands of troops who have been serving abroad so that we can remain safe in our own country. Combat Stress estimates that 7,600 of the 191,000 personnel who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan could develop PTSD, and that 37,600 are suffering from other disorders, such as depression, mood disorders and anxiety. It could be up to 13 years before the problems reveal themselves, so work done now in this area could prove invaluable 10 to 15 years down the line.
However, we should not be alarmist. Most British military personnel do not suffer any mental health problems while in service or afterwards. We also cannot be certain that the numbers of personnel suffering from mental health issues are disproportionate to the population as a whole. There are conflicting views on this. I have spoken to Veterans Aid, which says that there is no problem with ex-service personnel care, yet PTSD Resolution, a charity that gives counselling to veterans, talks about a much larger problem that is not currently acknowledged. The Royal British Legion anticipates a growing number of problems due to the rebalancing of the armed forces towards reservists.
With more and more armed forces coming back from Afghanistan, the possibly low estimate of 4% of personnel with probable PTSD, 19.7% with other mental disorders and 13% with unhealthy relationships with alcohol will become a much larger problem. I say possibly low estimate because the United States’ estimates of its defence personnel with PTSD range from 12% to 20%. Whether our figures are low or not, all personnel suffering from PTSD and other mental health issues deserve the highest quality post-deployment support services.
I find it a huge cause for concern that these services are at present undertaken, by and large, by charities. They rely on the generosity of the public and in the current environment, where donations to charities are down by 20%, according to the Office for National Statistics, we cannot go on in this way. Let me provide some examples. The Big White Wall online support network is propped up by a £100,000 commitment from Help for Heroes. That is almost a third of its total funding. Combat Stress, a veterans charity, is currently supporting over 5,000 veterans aged from 20 to 101 and it says it
“simply couldn’t do what we do without the generosity of the great British public.”
PTSD Resolution provides counselling to UK veterans, with a 78% success rate, but gets no recognition for its work from the MOD. Erskine hospital in my constituency provides vital care to veterans suffering from mental health issues, among others, and relies on donations to cover a large part of the £7 million a year that it needs to keep going.
It is unfortunate that those charities have to rely on fundraising to undertake work that provides a lifeline to those suffering after service. Veterans are clearly not a priority for this Government; they were not for the previous Government either. They are a priority for the charities, but it is a sad fact that in our society it is charities that are caring for our war wounded. More funding should be directed to the psychological welfare of ex-service personnel, and it should come from the public purse.
The funding issue will only get worse. The Government are planning to double the number of reservists, from 15,000 to 30,000, by 2018. That raises a key question, because reserve personnel are more likely than regular soldiers to suffer from PTSD. Therefore, we need a strategy for the future to tackle that invisible consequence of service.
Funding has been allocated for those brave personnel, but we do not know whether any of it will cover increased mental health provision. I have a few precise questions about the Government’s plans to care for those additional members of the armed forces, who take on the responsibility alongside their day jobs. Since reservists are going to be more exposed to the front line, will there be a change to the pre-deployment training to reflect that, and will there be any additional provision for reservists and their families?
On that point, let me underline the importance of including families in any post-deployment care. PTSD and other mental health problems do not have individual victims; their effects permeate the lives of sufferers’ friends and family, and often that effect is overlooked. It is perhaps more pertinent for reservists, as they return to environments where their experience is not particularly well understood. They can find it hard to readjust to civilian life, and their friends and family find it hard to see the person they loved change into someone new.
As an MP with a long history of standing up for rights in the workplace, I am also interested to hear how reservists’ rights will be protected. Will the Minister be looking to change post-deployment rest and recuperation, given that it is a key factor, cited by many experts, for why they do not recover? That seems a sensible suggestion to help mitigate the effects of traumatic experiences in the field. If that was the case, how much extra time away from work would that imply? Will reservists be given guarantees by the Government that their involvement will not hinder their job applications or relationships with employers?
Reservists, as with all other armed forces personnel, make a great sacrifice for their country and should not be penalised for that. They face specific issues on return, such as a lack of understanding from friends and family and more open criticism of the war in Iraq. They are also usually called upon to fill gaps in the regulars, becoming out of sync with the rest of their unit and, therefore, lacking the comradeship that can be such an important part of service. As such, they should be given the proper prevention and intervention strategies they need to readjust to civilian life and prevent any mental health issues from manifesting themselves.
I am sure that the Minister agrees with me on many of these issues. He might be searching desperately in his limited budget for spare cash to spend on mental health care for veterans. Perhaps I can help him in that regard. We have called for deeper cuts to the number of one-star officers and those above, the highest paid, in order to correct the top-heavy imbalance across our services. I am not usually in favour of redundancy policies, but the number of the most senior officers in the MOD has risen by a third since 1990. We have more admirals than ships. We have a higher number of officers across all three services than do the French and US air, maritime and land forces. Although 20% of more junior ranks look set to lose their jobs, just one in 20 of the most senior officers in all three services have been made redundant. The money spent employing senior officers could be much better spent helping to ease the burden of veterans’ charities. The £1 million could be spent on a fund that would focus research on mental health issues and charities could bid for funds to support their own policy research.
It is estimated that by 2020 1.8 million people in the armed forces community will be living with a long-standing illness. I have spent much of my political career fighting for people who have been injured or made ill as a result of their job. Serving in a combat zone where their life is constantly imperilled places unique burdens on our service personnel. It is imperative that the Government recognise the need to ensure that our armed forces are afforded not only the best physical care but the best mental health care while serving and after returning to civilian life. We cannot rely on charities to do this vital work any longer. I sincerely hope that this debate has managed to bring some of the issues to the table, and I will be interested to hear the Minister’s plans to ensure the mental well-being of our respected veterans.
Finally, it would be inappropriate in the context of this debate not to mention the Christmas Island veterans, who are still looking for compensation after almost 40 years. I hope that the Minister will say something about them as well.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Mr Mark Francois)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan) on securing this debate on the mental health of our former service personnel. I thank him for his courtesy in giving me some idea of the issues that he intended to raise.
This is a vital subject in which cross-Government working is having a real impact. Although the four UK Health Departments hold primary responsibility for the issue, I naturally take a very close interest in it given my veterans portfolio. I hope that in the previous debate on armed forces personnel I was able to persuade the House that in the three months in which I have been doing the job I have taken a very close interest particularly in the medical issues that affect personnel and veterans.
That said, I must regretfully disagree with the charges that the hon. Gentleman laid against this Government. We are investing in mental health at every juncture of a service career. From recruitment, to deployment, to discharge and transition into civilian life, the Ministry of Defence and the Department of Health have made funding available for extensive support to serving personnel and veterans who encounter mental health problems.
Let me also say that the Government very much welcome the role played by service charities. It is entirely appropriate that we should look to harness their niche capability and expertise to maximise the quality of support given to the service community. In many cases, this support is provided by a partnership with Government, and that should be celebrated rather than regretted.
As the former Defence Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), announced on 6 October last year, the Government accepted all the recommendations in “Fighting Fit”, the report by the Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), which now forms the backbone of the work being done across Government to improve mental health care for service personnel and veterans. I can report good progress in delivering those recommendations. The hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North specifically talked about veterans, but I will briefly set out the context of our overall strategy for mental health.
While serving, all personnel, including reservists, are encouraged to report distress or mental health concerns. We have introduced a process called trauma risk management, or TRiM—a peer group support system that is helping to identify those at risk and provide support to them.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
From what I have heard, there is extremely good counselling in the field after incidents have occurred. People zone in on those affected, immediately and without delay, and check them out as best they can.
Mr Francois
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that important intervention.
TRiM was initially developed by the Royal Marines. It involves training non-specialists in military units to lead discussions about traumatic events and spot those who may need additional help. We make sure that we have mental health professionals forward deployed in theatre, exactly along the lines that my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) mentioned, to deal with such eventualities if and when they occur. We deploy uniformed mental health teams to provide care on the front line. Regular psychological health assessments are conducted to ensure that support in theatre is sufficient and, if needed, a UK-based team of a psychiatrist and mental health nurse can deploy to theatre at short notice if an incident warrants it.
At the end of an operational tour, units undergo decompression—an opportunity to unwind and talk about their experiences. At this point, personnel also receive a series of briefings designed to help them adapt to their return from deployment, and mental health is one of the specific issues raised.
Specific measures are also in place for those leaving the service. After a successful regional pilot, structured mental health assessments were rolled out nationally in July 2012 as part of routine and discharge medicals. We hope they will be useful in highlighting mental health problems at an early stage.
To ease transition from military to civilian life, personnel with identified mental health issues can access military departments of community mental health up to six months after discharge. There are 15 such departments across the United Kingdom, providing specialist mental health support to military personnel. In addition, GP registration forms in England, Scotland and Wales now enable those who have served to declare this when registering with a doctor’s practice, providing an opportunity to discuss their unique needs, if they so wish.
On the specific steps that we are taking for veterans, the Department of Health, working with South Staffordshire and Shropshire mental health trust, has put in place a national veterans mental health network. This brings together NHS clinicians, the Ministry of Defence, Combat Stress and others to assess the implementation of the recommendations made by the Under-Secretary. The network’s first full meeting was in Stafford on 29 October and a national conference will take place in March 2013. I also take this opportunity to place on the record our appreciation for the valuable work done by Combat Stress, and I am looking forward to a meeting with its chief executive, Mr Andrew Cameron, in the next few days.
Armed forces networks, whose role is to provide links between the forces and the wider community on health issues, are beginning to implement veterans mental health projects in each former strategic health authority area. I am delighted to report that there are now more than 50 extra veterans mental health professionals in the NHS across the various armed forces networks in England, which is 20 more than originally recommended by my hon. Friend. I do not, therefore, accept the point made by the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North about lack of resources, although I accept that he made it in good faith.
In his report, my hon. Friend acknowledged the value of the medical assessment programme, which offers assessments to ex-service personnel suffering mental health problems. On 29 October, the MAP was relocated with the reserves mental health programme at Chilwell, Nottingham, to form the veteran and reserves mental health programme. This more central location in the middle of the country will, we believe, make for easier access and ensure that high standards of clinical oversight are maintained.
More than 2,500 members of the armed forces community are now registered to use the Big White Wall, which the hon. Gentleman mentioned. It is a website that allows users to talk anonymously about mental health issues. Early indications suggest that it is proving a valuable means of interaction without the stigma sometimes attached to mental health. User surveys are reporting significant reductions in stress and anxiety, not least because individuals can raise issues anonymously, if they so choose.
Plans are also maturing for the veterans information service, a means of providing advice to veterans on accessing services and support for health issues related to their military service. When launched, all veterans who leave the armed forces will be contacted by letter or e-mail after 12 months, so that we can check how they are getting on.
On work in the nations and regions, I recently met Keith Brown MSP, the Scottish Minister for Transport and Veterans, to discuss the steps the Scottish Government are taking on veterans’ issues. In addition to maintaining support for specialist mental health services for the next three years, they will fund and seek to expand the Veterans First Point service, an advice centre designed to help veterans and their families during the transition to civilian life.
In Wales, the all Wales veterans health and wellbeing service is providing access to specialist outpatient care and signposting veterans and their families to other support that they may require. It offers access to therapists with expertise in veterans’ mental health to provide assessment, treatment and referral. Treatment options include commissioning the services of Combat Stress, which works in partnership with the service to provide nurse-led community support groups.
In Northern Ireland—I should place on the record that the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) was present for part of this debate—a specialist aftercare service was established in 2007 to address the unique requirements of veterans of the Ulster Defence Regiment and the Royal Irish Regiment home service, and their dependants. Each year, that widely praised aftercare service deals with about 4,500 cases, providing welfare support and medical services, including mental health support.
Jim Sheridan
Is the Minister aware that a significant number of veterans are serving prison sentences or are on parole? The American system is different because it tracks the crimes of ex-service personnel. I am not suggesting for a minute that people should be able to commit crimes and get away with them, but is there something that we could do in Britain to copy the American system?
Mr Francois
I have looked into this matter and am advised that the proportion of veterans in prison is no higher than the proportion of the civilian population that is in prison. We need to do what we can through rehabilitation and other means to help those people, just as we would help others.
The Department of Health in England has extended its funding of the Combat Stress and Rethink 24-hour mental health helpline for service personnel, families and veterans. In addition, the Department of Health, in partnership with the Royal College of General Practitioners, has put in place training packages for GPs to raise awareness of the unique needs of armed forces families and veterans.
On a broader point, in line with the principles of the armed forces covenant—we launched the report on that today—the Government have reaffirmed that veterans in England should be given priority NHS treatment for conditions related to service, subject to the clinical needs of others. The Scottish and Welsh Governments accord the same priority to veterans. That is important, given that one in 10 adults in the United Kingdom is now a veteran, going right back through the second world war, Northern Ireland and other conflicts up to the present day. A high proportion of our population have served their country in uniform in one way or another.
The hon. Gentleman referred specifically to post-traumatic stress disorder. I was delighted to be able to visit King’s College London recently, not least because some time ago that was where I completed my master’s degree in war studies. To some extent, I was going back to my alma mater. While there, I met Professor Simon Wessely and his internationally renowned team in the King’s centre for military health research. Mental health issues, particularly PTSD, have been a key focus of his research, which the MOD continues to fund. I was reassured by Professor Wessely that comparatively low rates of PTSD are being recorded in the service community. The evidence indicates that the mental health of the armed forces remains robust, but naturally we will do our utmost to help the minority who develop PTSD or other mental illnesses.
In addition to the measures that are already in place, we have made provision for the training for primary health care staff to raise awareness of PTSD. Defence Medical Services has more than 200 mental health professionals who provide specialist support to service personnel and, as I have mentioned, additional personnel are available in the NHS to augment the existing capability. I have also mentioned the veterans and reserves mental health programme, which the MOD continues to fund. The Department of Health has agreed to fund the provision of acute PTSD services by Combat Stress with £3.5 million a year for five years. As I have said, I shall be meeting Andrew Cameron shortly to discuss how that money can best be deployed.
The hon. Gentleman asked about the Christmas Island veterans. I hope that he will forgive me, but I have concentrated my remarks on mental health. The fairest thing that I can say is that I will write to him about that issue. I hope, under the circumstances, that he regards that as acceptable.
I think that what I have said gives an indication of the importance the Government attach to the treatment of the mental health problems of our service personnel and veterans. Although we have long been aware of the implications of physical injury to our armed forces personnel, it is fair to say that for a long period there has been a stigma surrounding mental health. We are starting fully to recognise and deal with the impact on the lives of those who suffer from such issues. It is to the credit of the previous Government that work was done to begin to address these issues on their watch. The House can rest assured that the current Government will continue to do all that we practically can to look after service personnel and veterans who develop mental health issues. These people are important to our country and we must do our best for them.
Question put and agreed to.
Ministerial Correction
(12 years ago)
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Business, Innovation and Skills
(12 years ago)
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Mr Ruffley
To ask the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (1) how many Government-funded apprenticeships there were in each local authority area in the East of England in each of the last three years;
Matthew Hancock
As the requested tables are large, I am making data available in the Libraries of the House. Table 1 shows the number of apprenticeship programme starts by local education authority in the East of England. Table 2 shows the number of apprenticeship programme starts by sector subject area and age group in Bury St Edmunds parliamentary constituency, Suffolk local education authority and England. Final data are shown for the 2009/10 and 2010/11 academic years and provisional data are shown for the 2011/12 academic year.
The correct answer should have been:
Matthew Hancock
As the requested tables are large, I am making data available in the Libraries of the House. Table 1 shows the number of apprenticeship programme starts by local education authority in the East of England. Table 2 shows the number of apprenticeship programme starts by sector subject area and age group in Bury St Edmunds parliamentary constituency, Suffolk local education authority and England. Final data are shown for the 2009/10 and 2010/11 academic years and provisional data are shown for the 2011/12 academic year.
Provisional data for the 2011/12 academic year provide an early view of performance and will change as further data returns are received from further education colleges and providers. They should not be directly compared with final year data from previous years. Figures for 2011/12 will be finalised in January 2013.
The Department does not collect further education information relating to the devolved Administrations.
Information on the number of apprenticeship starts by geography is published in a supplementary table to a quarterly Statistical First Release (SFR). The latest SFR was published on 11 October 2012:
http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_current
http://www.thedataservice.org.uk/statistics/statisticalfirstrelease/sfr_supplementary_tables/Apprenticeship_sfr_supplementary_tables/
Changes to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme
Closure of HSBC in Shildon, County Durham
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Backbench Business
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Fisheries
(12 years ago)
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Mr Frank Doran (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to hold this debate under your chairmanship, Ms Clark. The fishing industry remains one of the most important industries in this country. For the past two years, when I have had the opportunity to debate this subject, I have usually opened with a comment about the fact that we are not in the main Chamber, which was where we normally used to hold the annual fisheries debate. However, this is the biggest turnout for a fisheries debate that I can remember for a long time, so maybe there is something to Westminster Hall.
The industry is important. According to Seafish’s industry figures for 2011, purchases of seafood totalled £5.6 billion and seafood products £2.9 billion. There were 644 registered vessels, 60% of them under 10 metres, and 12,400 fishermen across the country. It is a substantial industry.
At this time of year, we normally talk about the year gone by and the prospects for the European Fisheries Council. I hope that the Minister will bring us up to date about where we are on the various issues. I will cover a number of them. The Fisheries Council is key to the industry and its prospects for the next year. We had hoped that by this stage the Fisheries Council would be the last of its kind, because the common fisheries policy reforms would be in place, but it looks as though the reforms will be delayed.
In the discussions that I and others have had with industry bodies, the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation and the National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations have both made it clear to us that they are pleased that stocks seem to be improving, which should lead to improved quotas. There is one major area of concern: the cod quota. The cod recovery plan, based on advice from the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea, requires a 20% reduction in the total allowable catch. Cod stocks have improved significantly, and the application of a 20% cut could be damaging, in the industry’s view. The Scottish Fishermen’s Federation and the National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations believe strongly that that reduction should not be applied, partly because the most likely outcome, given that we use mixed-species fishing, is that there will be substantially more discards. Dealing with one problem will lead to another problem. I am interested to hear the Minister’s view.
The other issue concerning both bodies is the process. There have always been difficulties with European bureaucracy, but just yesterday the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation made a public statement about what it described as a
“power struggle between the Council of European Fisheries Ministers, the European Commission and the European Parliament”.
It suggests that the struggle for control is creating
“a logjam in…effective decision-making”
as the players dispute
“who has the ultimate power to decide upon fishing opportunity, in particular relating to effort or days-at-sea.”
We all know that the annual Fisheries Council discussions and its processes are problematic enough in a normal year without such games. If the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation’s complaint is accurate, it adds more strength to the argument that those decisions should be devolved and taken away from the Fisheries Council. Does the Minister share the view of the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation? If so, what impact, if any, is it likely to have on the Fisheries Council decisions on 20 December? I would also like to hear his views on the industry position and the prospects for a favourable outcome if the improvement in stocks is shown.
Sir Robert Smith (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing this debate. He makes the point that we must get away from central management of the fisheries. It is crucial that regional management is finally delivered so that those affected by decisions have a say in those decisions and a collective say for the fishing grounds affected.
Mr Doran
I think that that is what everyone wants, and we hope that it is the direction in which the council is travelling, but an awful lot of discussions and debates need to be had in Europe before that is finally agreed.
Another major area of concern, not related directly to the Fisheries Council, is mackerel fishing by Iceland and the Faroes. Four years of negotiations by the EU and Norway have made very little headway. According to the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation, despite Iceland’s claim to be operating a sustainable fishery, the country’s yearly mackerel catch has increased from 363 tonnes in 2005 to 145,000 tonnes recently. That is an enormous leap. Apparently, Iceland’s claim is a 15% share of the overall north-east mackerel catch, but for the past three years, it has taken an allocation of about 24%. There is also some concern about positions taken by Iceland in particular in its relations with some UK fish processors. Colleagues with more direct involvement in that issue may discuss it, but can the Minister bring us up to date on negotiations with Iceland and the Faroes?
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
I recently had the pleasure of speaking to some Icelanders at a conference. It is clear that their fear that their seas may be plundered like ours through the common fisheries policy is a major reason why they resist joining the European Union.
Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con)
I apologise, Ms Clark, but I have to chair a Bill Committee at 2 o’clock, so rather than make a speech, I can only intervene. Is the hon. Gentleman aware that fishermen in Leigh-on-Sea believe that the Marine Management Organisation has behaved absolutely disgracefully in not allowing vessels under 10 metres to catch a reasonable amount of fish?
Mr Doran
I was not directly aware of that, but I take the hon. Gentleman’s point. I am sure that others will want to expand on it.
My first question to the Minister is this. In previous debates, he has mentioned that he proposes to publish a list of quota holders. We have been waiting for that list for some time. I would be interested and pleased to get an update on progress from him. In particular, what are the reasons for the delay?
Another important issue is health and safety in the fishing industry. Usually in these debates, we remember those who have lost their lives in the industry, which I am sad to say is still the least safe industry in the country in which to work. I have some figures from the Library, which I will mention later.
Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that remarks made last Friday during the passage of my private Member’s Bill—some Members said that it was not necessary to carry a VHF radio on a small boat—were not particularly responsible? The minimum safety aid that anybody can carry at sea is a VHF radio, if not a personal emergency position-indicating radio beacon.
Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. Like the hon. Member for Southend West (Mr Amess), I need to leave shortly; I need to be in the main Chamber shortly for the second debate. On health and safety, we all recognise how dangerous a job it is out there on the open seas, but exploitation is occurring as well. I draw to the attention of my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) and other hon. Members the police operation in my area yesterday, which stretched into west Cumbria and up into the Aberdeen and Peterhead area. It looked like that was a result of illegal immigrants, and potentially even people trafficking. The police said yesterday in their second statement:
“Our primary objectives are to ensure the human rights of these workers are being respected and to gather evidence against those who may have been involved in their alleged exploitation.”
I am sure that my hon. Friend would agree that such activity does nothing for the good name of the fishing industry.
Mr Doran
I agree with my hon. Friend entirely. He was good enough to tell me about that issue yesterday and I will refer to it at length later in my speech, but I thank him for that contribution.
Returning to the problem of safety in the North sea and the UK fishing industry, I have the most recent stats from the marine accident investigation branch for 2011, which show that there were 58 major injuries or fatalities in the industry, and eight of those were fatalities, so the rate is 7.5 per 1,000 people employed. It is more than twice the number of the next most dangerous industry, water and waste management, which has an accident rate of 3.3 per 1,000, and it is three and half times as many as the construction industry, which is often quoted as the most dangerous industry, with an accident rate of 2.2 per 1,000 people employed. All those figures are based on the Office for National Statistics business register and employment survey. According to the MAIB, the number of marine vessels lost was 24, which was a significant increase on the previous two years—in 2009, 15 were lost, while 14 were lost in 2010. Those are shocking figures.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the points that he is making. Does he agree that it is very important for Ministers in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to talk to Ministers in the Department for Transport, particularly in circumstances where the Maritime and Coastguard Agency is planning to close fishing vessel survey offices—for example, in Newlyn in my constituency —without consulting the fishing industry? It is important that there is consultation, as the industry wants to work with the regulators to ensure that safety in the industry is improved.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
While the hon. Gentleman is on that issue, we should also look at the reorganisation of search and rescue helicopters. Fishermen in the North sea are extremely concerned that RAF Boulmer will no longer be a base under the current proposals, and they do not feel that they have been consulted about that either.
Mr Doran
I agree with the right hon. Gentleman. In my constituency we have not only the fishing industry but the oil and gas industry, and the search and rescue helicopters were a key part of the safety programme. People are very concerned about what will replace them.
I return to the point made earlier by my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and Galloway (Mr Brown) about migrant workers. I raised the issue of migrant workers in the industry in the 2008 fisheries debate—I have probably been doing these debates for too long. [Interruption.] Was that a cheer or a boo? I am not sure. At the time, it seemed that the problem was limited to Northern Ireland and Scotland, and there were some shocking examples of how migrant labourers, mainly from south-east Asia, were being treated, particularly what they were being paid, the hours that they were working and the failure to provide adequate accommodation.
Matters came to a head when three south-east Asian fishermen died in a fire on a fishing boat in Fraserburgh. I received information from the International Transport Workers’ Federation that included the terms and conditions under which those individuals were employed, and I passed it on to the relevant authorities. Having raised that issue in the 2008 debate, I am pleased that action was taken by the then Minister at DEFRA, as well as by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs in relation to the application of the minimum wage and the Home Office in relation to visa requirements. It took a co-ordinated approach, and at that time, it looked as though the problems had been resolved.
However, I noticed that on 28 November this year, the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile)—I do not think he is here today—and the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), who is present, raised similar problems in their constituencies with the Minister for Immigration during a debate in this Chamber. Just yesterday, as my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfries and Galloway said, Dumfries and Galloway police led what they described as a multi-agency operation as part of an ongoing investigation into allegations of labour exploitation in the fishing industry. Over 150 personnel from the police and other agencies were involved in raids on businesses and residential premises, as well as fishing vessels in Annan, Silloth and Peterhead. Welfare and support arrangements have been provided for 17 foreign nationals who came to the UK from the Philippines, Sri Lanka and Indonesia to work in the fishing industry.
From those incidents, it seems that we are seeing the reintroduction of some very unpleasant practices in the industry, and I am concerned about that given my previous experiences. Obviously, there will be ongoing investigations into what will be a complex issue in Scotland, so I will say no more about those specific events. However, the fishing industry has suffered massive reputational damage recently, because of court cases involving illegal fishing in Scotland, and those latest events will not improve its image.
Cheap immigrant labour is hired to save money. The most important thing, in my view, is the need to examine the economics of the industry at every level. Fishing boats and gear are expensive, as are operating costs, wages, fuel, insurance and labour, and the acquisition of quota by purchase or lease is extremely expensive. The very nature of the industry means that there is uncertainty about catches, the quality of the catch and the price received for it. Add in the restrictions and a different kind of uncertainty caused by the common fisheries policy, limits on catches, days at sea, type of gear and so on, and a difficult situation is made much worse.
Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way. Although the fishing industry in my constituency has almost entirely disappeared, a lot of people’s jobs are still dependent on fishing in various ways, and many constituents are concerned about the issue for all sorts of reasons. As well as being concerned about the need for sustainable fisheries management within the European Union—it is good to see that we are perhaps moving in the right direction there—does my hon. Friend agree that the international dimension, beyond the EU, is also important in ensuring sustainable fisheries? The EU should ensure that its own fleets and policies, when directed further afield, even beyond Europe, act in a responsible and sustainable fashion.
Mr Doran
I could not agree more with my hon. Friend, who makes a point that I want to make myself. Some co-ordination in Government on safety, and on other matters, would be appropriate.
Some vessel owners do very well out of the fishing industry, but others struggle. For most it is feast or famine, and in recent years, famine has become much more prevalent. UK-based labour is more expensive, but it is also in short supply in many areas. In the north-east of Scotland, many men who would have gone in to the fishing industry have steadier, better-paid and safer jobs in the oil and gas industry. I urge the Minister to consider the issues that we are discussing and to work together with other relevant Departments and the devolved Administrations to look into these problems, and ensure that whatever has gone wrong is dealt with.
Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
The hon. Gentleman mentions the introduction or the use of men from, in particular, the Philippines in the fishing industry. Surely one approach is for the Government to recognise their skills properly and allow them into the country with work visas. As the hon. Gentleman has pointed out, the indigenous labour in the fishing industry often moves on to jobs in other sectors, such as cable-laying in the North sea.
Mr Doran
I am not sure that that is the problem, because I know from previous involvement that part of the solution was to ensure that people who required transit visas—most of them are operating outside the 12-mile limit—obtained them, and a time limit was then put in place to ensure that the situation was not exploited. It is a serious, complex problem that requires proper consideration.
It is also worth pointing out that the industry will face new problems as we prepare for the possibility of a new common fisheries policy, with—we hope—much more local control and involvement. There could not be a better time to take a close look at the industry and help to shape it for the new challenges that it will face under a new CFP. At the same time, it would allow us to address the problems that have beset the industry for far too long—poor safety, illegal fishing and exploitation of foreign labour—and perhaps create an environment in which our young people can see opportunities for a good and stable career.
Katy Clark (in the Chair)
A number of hon. Members have indicated that they wish to speak, so there will be an eight-minute time limit on speeches. I remind hon. Members that interventions should be brief.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
It is a great pleasure to welcome you to the Chair and to speak under your chairmanship, Ms Clark. I congratulate the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) and his hon. Friend the Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) —she is also my hon. Friend on the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs—on securing the debate, but I echo his concerns that it is not taking place in the main Chamber. Given the level of debate and focus that the issue is achieving, I hope that we can return to the main Chamber in the future.
I am sure that my hon. Friend the Minister will feel that we are between two systems at the moment. I would welcome his views, given that he has just returned from one Fisheries Council and is about to go to another this month, on how the interim arrangements are working. I welcome what the Minister was able to share with the Select Committee yesterday as regards our inshore fishermen, whom a number of hon. Members here represent. In my constituency, just six families now sail three coble boats off Coble landing, at Filey. I hope that everyone will come to visit Filey to see what a tourist attraction it is. There is a real appetite for them to have more quota. I also welcome the Minister’s comments yesterday that shellfish across United Kingdom waters enjoy good health at this time.
Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)
My hon. Friend is making a powerful contribution to the debate. What I am particularly keen to see, especially off the western approaches, where we have very mixed fisheries, is the operation of a better system of quotas, so that we do not throw away a lot of good, healthy cod just because it cannot be landed when it is already dead. I know that my hon. Friend the Minister is working hard on discards, but where there is a mixed fishery, that is particularly difficult.
Miss McIntosh
I am most grateful for my hon. Friend’s comments. I will come on to the issue that he raises.
The conclusions that we reached echo what was said by the hon. Member for Aberdeen North. I welcome the fact that there is co-decision. Having spent 10 years as a Member of Parliament and five and a half years advising Members of the European Parliament, I think that it is important that Members of the European Parliament take their responsibilities seriously. I am alarmed at the way this is going. Obviously, it is possible that the proposals will not be adopted finally in their current form. The Minister may want to shed more light on that. Co-decision is welcome, provided that the three institutions—the Commission, the Council of Fisheries Ministers and the European Parliament—take their responsibilities seriously.
Radical reform is needed. We need a new fisheries policy that will deliver for fishermen and coastal communities and for sustainable fishing in our waters. We want an end to the centralised micro-management from Brussels, which by any view has failed. I am very keen to see regionalisation. I do not wish to dance on the head of a pin. What we see from the Commission and what the Minister reported to us is very welcome indeed, but it must be deliverable. I shall say a few more words about that.
The end point that I would like to see would be member states, together with their own fisheries in those waters—for example, the North sea, the Irish sea and the Mediterranean—having a greater say over fisheries policies in their own waters. We must accept that there is no one size that fits all. There is an argument that the Commission should set high-level objectives only and leave regional groupings of member states and regional advisory councils to take the day-to-day decisions. I hope that the Minister will come forward with the register that he has promised us of who owns the quotas
I come now to the issue of discards. Where fish can be discarded at sea and where they have a high survival rate, we must welcome that as a sustainable form of fisheries management. I am concerned that we will swap discards at sea for discards on land. We need to know much more about what the discard policy is, how it will be achievable and the Minister’s reaction to our call for discarding to be slowed down and for us to rely on the science—the excellent work that ICES does. Perhaps a decision should be taken in a longer time frame. The date that we gave in the Select Committee report was 2020. That is something that the Minister may care to share with us.
I make a special plea for inshore fishermen in relation to the future policy. I have mentioned that. I would like to recognise and congratulate, because it is based in Copenhagen in my second homeland, ICES on the excellent work that it is doing. It is staggering that past fisheries reforms have proceeded on a base of inaccurate science. If we have learned anything, it is that we must proceed on a sound scientific basis, but we also need a workable legal basis. We heard yesterday in the Select Committee that a decision can be reached in two ways. One is that member states agree the regulation and introduce national legislation to give detailed effect to it. The other way is through a Commission regulation where Council members agree. I would like an assurance from the Minister that that will not enable the Commission to continue to give detailed directives on what the fishing regulations should be. To me, that would not be a step forward at all; it would be no advance whatever.
I was delighted that in the context of preparing our report, we had the opportunity to visit some fishermen in the small community of Gilleleje in northern Denmark, on the main island of Zealand. We saw the nets that they were preparing under an agreement that has been reached in their own waters, the Kattegat and Skagerrak, which are fished by Danish and Swedish fishermen only. They have reached a very positive decision about how the fish should be fished. The mesh sizes and all the other detailed analysis have been agreed by the fishermen and by their own Governments. Therefore, it is staggering to know from the Commission that that has not been given legal effect. If it is the model to be used going forward, we need to know from the Minister, from the Commission and from the other institutions involved that whatever emerges from regionalisation, it will be deliverable.
There is a groundswell of support for regionalisation. I was delighted when a Commission official told me in a recent meeting in Cyprus of fellow Chairs of Select Committees in other Parliaments that it is also being supported by Mediterranean countries. However, that will mean nothing if agreement cannot be reached and if it is not given legal effect, so what assurance can the Minister give us today that regionalisation will work and will deliver for UK sustainable fishing and for the fishermen and coastal communities that are so dependent on our fisheries?
What is the time frame? It is rather alarming that we may not reach a decision during the Irish presidency. It then goes to Lithuania, which will be presiding for the first time. After that, it is the Greeks—need I say more. I wish the Minister extremely well in his endeavours. I am sure that he has the full support of the House.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) and, in anticipation of her speech, the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie), for bringing this debate to the House. It is a very important one for those of us who represent fishing villages. I represent the second largest working fishing village in the Province—Portavogie. This topic is close to my heart. My brother worked in the fishing industry and I have many friends who have done likewise. It is close to my heart and close to the hearts of those who are involved. In fact, it sometimes breaks our hearts when we hear what the fishermen have to go through and the trials that they have to deal with because of the onerous attentions of Europe. The film “The Perfect Storm” and the television programme “Deadliest Catch” come to mind. They tell the story of what the fishermen do, in film and documentary, showing its practical and physical nature. They put the dangers into perspective.
For the first time ever, I have been contacted by supermarkets that wish to have an input into the matter. They say:
“We share the view that the”
common fisheries policy
“is in need of radical reform and presents a vital opportunity to protect the marine environment by introducing responsible practices across the industry. We welcome the ban secured on discards although we believe…this must be accompanied by investment in the development of fishing methods and gear to enable a more effective catch. We also believe that it is essential to overhaul the current overcapacity policy as it not effective. We are of the view that reform of the CFP needs to take a long term approach, not only to ensure that fish stocks are maintained at a sustainable level, but also to provide protection for the environment and a viable future”—
a sustainable future—
“for UK fishermen and their communities.”
It shows how bad, or perhaps how good, things are when, for the first time, the supermarkets are crying out for reform of the common fisheries policy. It is an indication of where we are.
Of all the many issues brought to my attention, the most important is, as usual, nephrops. Why? Because it is the most important catch for my constituency. For 2013, the European Commission has proposed a cut in the total allowable catch of 3,183 tonnes, or 15%. It had proposed a cut in the TAC of 19%, and, in the end, a roll-over was achieved. I would like to put my thanks to the Minister on record. He is industrious on behalf of the fishing industry, and we support him. We know how hard he fights for us and we congratulate him on that. I ask him in advance for the roll-over to be achieved for this year as well. If it is achieved for nephrops, it will bring dividends for Portavogie and the whole of Northern Ireland. We need to reach a target for the Northern Ireland fishing industry, particularly because there will be serious economic consequences if we are not successful.
The Irish sea fishery has remained strong and the cod industry has recovered. A sentinel fishery plan was recently developed by fishermen and the Department for Agriculture and Rural Development in Northern Ireland. The fishermen donated some of their quota, which was used to see whether the cod resources in the Irish sea were improving. The fact is that they are better. There is more cod in the Irish sea than there has been for umpteen years. I have seen photographs of the cod, and the size of some of them clearly indicates that the cod industry is on the turn. We need Brussels to fall in behind us and accept the scientific evidence. There are scientists who will be able to prove it.
There is a lot to do. As the Minister will be aware, the indications at the moment suggest a 25% cut in the cod TAC for the year coming and a 25% cut in effort. Why should that happen when the industry is clearly showing signs of re-emergence and could be sustainable? We have a meeting with him on 17 December prior to him going to Brussels, so we, and other representatives, will have another opportunity to reinforce that point. For Irish sea cod, it is important that there is a victory for pragmatism and realism over dogmatic adherence to a flawed formula, because that is exactly what it is.
The Scientific, Technical and Economic Committee for Fisheries has come to some conclusions. Its previous conclusion, on a proposal for an amendment to a plan, took 14 agonising months, so is it any wonder that we are frustrated with Europe and are sitting here wondering what is going to happen next year to our fishing industry?
I wish to comment on the maximum sustainable yield, but I am conscious of the time and trying to get as many of my points into my speech as I can. The principle of MSY is understandably maintained, but it continues to be a source of frustration that when reference is made to the 2002 Johannesburg world summit declaration on it, two words, though critically important, are conveniently forgotten: “where possible”. In other words, we do not have to dogmatically and blindly follow the strategy, but do it where possible. We find that that is thrown aside and discarded.
Discard is one of the biggest issues. Other Members will speak of it and some have already. How far has the practical delivery of the policy been taken into consideration? In the latest draft of the European Parliament’s report into the new CFP, which will be voted on on 18 December, one amendment seems to inject some realism into the process. It recognises that some species have a high survival rate when they are discarded, so “discarding” should be allowed to continue for such species. It is a step towards answering the question: what is a discard? The industry does not for one second oppose a discard ban, but such a policy must reflect and consider the practical implications.
On fishing gear, assuming the entire EU fleet is managed at the same level as that of the UK, the size of a vessel or, within environmental considerations, the gear it uses to catch quotas should not matter. It should be left to the catchers, with member state Administrations, to decide the most efficient way to harvest the catch. I would be amazed if any member states supported the creation of yet more bureaucracy—as if they do not have enough of it.
The Minister had a chance to respond to a question on marine protected areas—or MPAs—at Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs questions today. Some of us are concerned about how they will happen and their impact on the fishing industry. There seems to be a great zeal to include 50% of territorial waters in a network. I am not convinced that that is entirely practical or right. If I had had the chance to ask him a supplementary question, I would have asked what consideration had been given to the concerns of fishing organisations and the industry in the proposals.
I shall comment quickly on the fixed quota allocation. The CFP should not interfere with arrangements that have been successfully operating in member states, including the UK, for years. For example, in the UK, transferrable quotas—swapping and leasing—has helped to reduce discards; where trawler A catches more cod than it has a quota for, it can sometimes transfer cod to trawler B. There seem to be indications coming from Europe that it intends to stop that.
I support regionalisation and look forward to it coming to Northern Ireland. I hope that we can make it work: I believe we can. It will be a significant help for us and our industry. As I have told the Minister, we need to ensure that the decisions on the MPAs include protection for the fishing industry and the boats and for a sustainable industry in future. We will meet him on 17 December, before he goes to Brussels, and we will have an opportunity to put other proposals forward through Diane Dodds MEP and local representatives. I support the fishing industry, as I know the Minister does.
Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)
I pay special tribute to the families of all lost fishermen, the rescue services and the work of the Royal National Mission to Deep Sea Fishermen.
I shall concentrate on area VII total allowable catches and quotas, because other hon. Members will speak about other areas. The proposed 15% increase for area VIIe Dover sole is welcome. The International Council for the Exploration of the Sea advised an increase of 23%, but the restriction in the Commission’s multi-annual management plan would not allow it. Plaice is responding well to the same regime, and although ICES advised an increase of 26%, the Commission has proposed an increase of only 6%, despite its regulation on plaice, on page 6 of the proposal, stating that Channel plaice can be raised by 18%. It seems bizarre.
The proposed cuts that will particularly affect south-west fleets in 2013 include: 20% cut to anglerfish; a 32% cut to northern hake; and a 20% cut to megrim. Part of the reason for that was Spain’s refusal to provide its commercial data. Why should all member states be penalised because of the irresponsible action of one member state? There is also a proposed cut of 55% to area VIIb-k haddock. A mass recruitment occurred in 2009, but the total allowable catch has not risen to reflect it. The Commission is proposing a further massive cut, which will result in a greater increase in discards of gadoids, which die anyway when they are discarded. The maximum sustainable yield has increased year on year.
Page 5 of the 2012 quota management rules states that the south-west mackerel handline quota is ring-fenced. Will the Minister reassure me and confirm that that will continue in 2013? Although some of the quota is unused and has recently been used for swaps, the security that the ring-fence provides the fishermen who use that traditional, environmentally friendly and sustainable method of capture must be maintained.
Andrew George
I am extremely grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that issue—I, too, have written to the Minister about it—and I entirely agree with her. Does she share my concern that the proposal is being made under the noses of the fishermen, who are not being consulted at all about its potentially devastating impact?
Sheryll Murray
I completely share my hon. Friend’s concerns.
On the CFP review of regional management, although a sea basin approach is welcome, we must all remember that it will be for a limited period, because article 6(1) of the new regulation states that Union vessels shall have equal access to waters and resources in all Union waters. In his bid to secure legitimate sea basin management, has the Minister explored the deletion of that article from the proposal?
On the 12-mile limit, I am delighted that the European Parliament and the Council have adopted a regulation to extend the arrangements for a further two years, thus avoiding a repetition of the situation that arose in January 1983 and the subsequent case of Regina v. Kirk in the European Court of Justice. The Labour party claimed in 2002 that it had secured a roll-over of the 12-mile limit, but that was untrue. According to article 100 of our act of accession, the original agreement referred to the position as on 31 January 1971. That position, which was set out in the London convention of 1964, remained until the present 2002 regulation, in which it was changed. Fishermen from specific member states are now allowed access to specific areas for specific stocks, as is set out in an annexe to the regulation. I hope that the Opposition will apologise to UK fishermen for that error.
The restriction of access to member states within a certain band could help our fishermen using small—under 10 metre—vessels, who are struggling with their quota share. Action on that matter was yet another failure by the Labour party. Please will the Minister take soundings over the next two years to secure a better deal on access to our 12-mile limit? Newer member states do not have such shared access.
I understand the industry’s concern about how a discard ban would affect it, but I believe that the discarding of marketable fish is a wicked waste of healthy protein. I have often raised the matter of small gurnards, which are fished off my constituency, and I am delighted to inform hon. Members that one of my fish merchants is now using them as an ingredient in the Lipsmacking Liskeard pies range. The fish version is the Shipwreck pie, which is quite delicious. I certainly recommend that hon. Members try it should they ever happen to be passing through Liskeard.
Some of my fishermen are very worried about the implications of marine protected areas. Although I acknowledge that Natura 2000 sites cannot take account of socio-economics, the MPAs that the Minister will designate under the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 can do so. Will the Minister reassure me that any consultation on the selected sites, which he is due to announce, will allow leisure and commercial fishermen to put their case should they feel disadvantaged?
I want to mention an MPA that has been the subject of a case in the European Court of Justice relating to Spain and the southern Gibraltar waters. Having declared an MPA in the southern Gibraltar territorial waters, the UK registered it with the European Commission, but Spain has contested those waters. Indeed, Spain included them in its own, much larger MPA, which it has registered with the Commission.
Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)
My hon. Friend obviously speaks about this subject with a great deal of experience. She mentioned socio-economic considerations of marine conservation areas and marine protected areas. Does she agree that such areas also provide an opportunity for additional benefits, such as tourism? I am particularly thinking of the sinking of the Scylla near her constituency, and the economic benefits that that has brought.
Sheryll Murray
One of our problems with the proposed MPA there is that a lot of dredged silt is being dumped in a disposal ground close to the Scylla. I know that the Minister has visited my constituency and seen that for himself.
The European Court of Justice has confirmed that the Spanish action was legal, but it should be noted that one of the judges on the appeal panel was a Spanish national. Although I do not expect the Minster to respond on that subject today, will he write to me to say what his Department or the Foreign Office now intends to do? I admire his work for our fishermen at this important time, but I fear the outcome will not be as positive as they want, or as they—let alone the fish stocks—deserve.
We are constrained by the principle of equal access to a common resource, but I want to remind the Minister of the words of some of his predecessors when they held shadow posts. In November 2002, my hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes) told the House:
“We should follow the example of those countries that have had the courage to take control of their own fisheries policies.”—[Official Report, 21 November 2002; Vol. 394, c. 825.]
On 2 December 2004, the current Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, who then held the shadow fisheries post, said:
“The CFP is a biological, environmental, economic and social disaster. It is our clearly stated policy to leave the CFP and establish national and local control.”—[Official Report, 2 December 2004; Vol. 428, c. 836.]
He even published a Green Paper on how fisheries would be managed within the UK 200- mile limit or the median line. Finally, on 7 December 2005, he told the House that
“my hon. Friend the Member for Witney (Mr. Cameron) said that he ‘would reverse EU control of fisheries policy and withdraw from employment and social policies.’ On numerous occasions during the campaign, my hon. Friend stressed employment and social policies—and my word, fishing certainly comes into that category.”—[Official Report, 7 December 2005; Vol. 440, c. 888.]
If the Minister cannot secure real, permanent change to fisheries policy during the review of the CFP, will he takes steps to persuade my right hon. Friends the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister to take back national control over our 200-mile limit? Indeed, the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) could show him the way, through the Bill he presented some years ago, which British fishermen still applaud today.
Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Clark. I echo other hon. Members in congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) and the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) on securing this debate.
I hope that you will not rule me out of order, Ms Clark, if I start by wishing my father, Mervyn Wright, a very happy 70th birthday today. He is not a fisherman, but he is my dad, so I wish him very many happy returns.
Mr Wright
He does. The hon. Gentleman is quite right.
I want to concentrate on the concerns that fishermen in Hartlepool have about the future viability of their industry. My constituency has had a fishing industry for the best part of 800 years. Generations of Hartlepool families have farmed the seas, building up a knowledge of conditions, changes in stock levels and fish movements in the North sea that is second to none. As I think was said by the Chair of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), that combination of local knowledge—as opposed to top-down bureaucracy—should be used, alongside technology and empirical evidence, to inform fisheries policy.
Hartlepool’s fishing fleet largely comprises vessels of under 10 metres. Fishermen in my constituency are rightly concerned that developments over the past few years are making it even more difficult for them to make a living from the seas. Their concerns are predominantly based on two factors: the specific make-up of their industry, particularly in relation to ownership, and the common fisheries policy, which is hindering the long-term sustainability of a vibrant fishing fleet.
On the make-up of the industry, boats of under 10 metres—as I have said, they comprise virtually the whole fishing fleet in Hartlepool—make up about 75% of the total fleet in the UK, but they are allowed to catch only about 4% of the annual quota. The rest of the quota is given to a small handful of large organisations. As in other industries, such as banking and energy, the actions of larger producers and powerful vested interests are distorting the dynamics of the industry and undermining the ability of Hartlepool fishermen to remain viable. Overfishing of the seas was not caused by the under 10-metre fleet, but the small proportion of the quota allocated to them is having a hugely disproportionate impact.
Hartlepool fishermen play by the rules; they farm the seas sustainably and think of the long term, because their fathers, grandfathers and great grandfathers fished in the North sea before them and they want their sons and daughters, their grandsons and great grandsons to follow them and do the same. They do not want to undermine the industry or the chances of the next generation. None the less, the nature of the industry and the punitive share of the quota allocated to them mean that they are, at the moment, barely scraping a living.
The Minister—who, to his credit, understands the industry—has looked at the matter of increasing the allocation of quotas to the smaller vessels. I appreciate the immense challenges and difficulties of that. For example, how do we take quotas from organisations that may have a legal right to them? That is of huge significance to the fishing fleet in my constituency. On the back of what the Chairman of the Select Committee said in her contribution, I ask the Minister to outline his current thinking on how we will push forward this agenda.
The second element that concerns my fishermen is the commons fisheries policy, which naturally dominates any debate of this nature. From listening to the contributions so far in this debate, I think that there is consensus that there will be no long-term future for our fishing industry if the CFP system continues to be a top-down, bureaucratic, clumsy, blunt and inefficient tool. For a policy that is supposed to stem from a long-term, sustainable view based on scientific evidence, it is remarkably short term in its scope, having the annual rigmarole of quota setting, which does nothing to embed long-term thinking into the industry.
On the back of what has been said about regionalism, on which there again seems to be a consensus, I am interested in the Minister’s view on multi-year agreements in which quotas can be set within a broad framework for a three-year period. Does the Minister agree that that would provide more certainty for the industry rather than this current annual negotiating round, which does not provide a long-term and sustainable view for the industry? Would it not be best for the EU to provide that longer-term objective for the sustainability of our fish stocks while allowing the manner of implementation to be devised and then adapted wherever possible at a regional and local level? Should not that be done at a much more localised level? That would allow people who have strong local knowledge, such as the fishermen in Hartlepool, to take a more flexible and adaptable approach, which in turn would sustain the economics of the industry while being sensitive to the environment and future fish stocks.
Kelvin Hopkins
Do not the views of the hon. Members for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) and for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) about the rogue behaviour of Spain in particular underline the problem of the common fisheries policy and the apparent weakness and failure of the European Union to have any control over what it does?
Mr Wright
I have tried to speak in the annual fisheries debate to put forward the concerns of my constituents. I remember—it seems many years ago now—raising the concern that Spanish and French fishermen were, essentially, illegally operating in British waters, and that the level of enforcement was virtually non-existent. We need to have a more robust review of such practices.
Another blunt, clumsy and top-down initiative relates to the days at sea allocated to Hartlepool fishermen. The EU plans yet again to cut days at sea under the cod recovery plan, even though it has been estimated that cod stocks in the North sea have almost tripled in the past six or seven years. Does the Minister agree that we should avoid that somewhat simplistic tool of days at sea because it grossly distorts the economics of the industry and again embeds that short-term view? Should not we instead be thinking of a policy response that emphasises technological modifications to fishing gear, as well as making better use of technology and scientific evidence to see real-time closures of specific fishing areas in the North sea where stocks seem under threat?
In conclusion, Hartlepool has had a fishing industry for 800 years, providing a decent living for many generations of my constituents. The hard and dangerous nature of fishing the North sea has embedded itself into the culture and character of the Hartlepool people, making us who we are. The fishing industry in Hartlepool and across the North sea, and indeed around the UK waters, must be sustained for generations to come, and we must protect the stock for the long term and for the economic future of the fishermen who farm those stocks.
Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Clark, and to follow the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) and congratulate his father on his birthday. I also congratulate Hartlepool on having a fishing fleet left. Unfortunately, precious few ships are left in Fleetwood, and much of our quota goes to the Anglo-Spanish fleets. To be fair though—this is part of the complexity of the industry in our region—much of our catch is hake, and I am told that there is no market for hake in Britain. The precious few boats that we have are under-10 metres. Like the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon), who is not in his place, I want to thank the Minister for securing a deal that ensures that there are no cuts in the nephrops catch in the Irish sea, which has benefited the few boats that commercially fish from Fleetwood.
Let me now come on to another area of complexity in our industry. Despite the fact that we have very few ships—only two or three ships fish for nephrops—tons and tons of fish come into Fleetwood, by road, from across the United Kingdom to be processed by families who have been processing fish for years and who have developed their skills alongside the fishermen. Therefore, although we have seen this decline in actual catches on the dock in Fleetwood, we have extremely thriving fish processing businesses. Can we acquire any kind of support to modernise the premises from which those businesses operate so that they can gain further orders? At the moment, they are stuck in buildings constructed in the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s, which supermarkets will not go near. It is down to the local and county councils to get some support for a new fish market for Fleetwood. That illustrates the complexity of the fishing industry: from the catch, to the processing and, most importantly, to the market in Britain. We have a simplified market in this country and we need to maintain it.
Fishing is still in the blood of Fleetwood, even though the main fishing fleet has gone, but the key point I want to make is about wind farms at sea. Many hon. Members have questioned, with my support, wind farms on land, but it is convenient to think that wind farms at sea cause no problems, are more viable and do not lead to complaints from local villagers and landowners about how they look. In February, the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change opened two new wind farms in the Irish sea, Walney 1 and Walney 2, which I understand are the biggest in Britain, but are now to be extended by DONG Energy. At the same time, the Isle of Man, which is also positioned in the Irish sea and can be seen from Fleetwood on a clear day when it is not raining—
Eric Ollerenshaw
Indeed. There is a proposal for another wind farm to be built on the Isle of Man by Centrica. We have already lost our ferry from Fleetwood to Larne, and if the wind farms go ahead there would be no possibility of a ferry.
Furthermore, when we look for some solid science about the impact of wind farms on fishing grounds, we find much contradictory evidence. Fishermen tell me that they change the nature of what is there, and if that is so, can they get in to fish them anyway? Others say that they drive fish away. I can find no solid evidence—perhaps the Minister will point me to some research—about the impact of the creeping development of wind farms out at sea.
Another aspect of the complexity is the effect on fishermen of the cables that go out to the wind farms, which is often discounted. In about 50 years’ time, I imagine the whole Irish sea will be layered with endless cables like the London underground. There will have to be new transmitters for those cables that come out of the sea, and that will cause further problems for Lancaster and Fleetwood as a coastal constituency.
The few fishermen that are left in my area have raised with me the issue of compensation. Why must they negotiate single-handedly with giant companies, with no statutory system of compensation, and why is the compensation simply for disturbance? The fishermen are “disturbed” for good; there is no way back for them after those wind farms have been built.
Then there is the issue of community compensation. We have seen absolutely no community compensation in Fleetwood. Having spent years in local government negotiating section 106 planning agreements, I find it unbelievable that community compensation is being decided by the companies themselves, with people having to ask for something as if it were a charity involved. The company is judge and jury, deciding how much compensation it hands out.
I have great respect for the Minister, but I am aware that wind farms are a matter for the Department of Energy and Climate Change, so I will finish my contribution on the point that other Members have made about the complications faced by fishermen in trying to deal with different Government Departments. They have to deal with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on fishing and marine conservation zones; with DECC on wind farms and cabling; and with the Department for Transport on shipping and ports. In all that confusion, the poor fishermen could end up spending week after week attending meetings about compensation on a particular matter, or asking, “Where is this new wind farm going to go?”, without actually doing the fishing that they want to do and are capable of doing.
I will finish by repeating a suggestion that I have made elsewhere, which may seem slightly out of bounds. Perhaps we could consider for the future a long-term reorganisation of Government and the creation of a “Secretary of State for British Seas and Coastal Communities”. If we were to do that, I suggest that my hon. Friend the Minister would make a really good Secretary of State.
Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Thank you, Ms Clark, for calling me to speak, and I congratulate the hon. Members for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) and for South Down (Ms Ritchie) on securing this debate.
I begin my remarks this afternoon by paying tribute to those killed or injured at sea in the fishing industry during the last 12 months, and I echo the sentiments that have been made by others about health and safety in the industry. Earlier this year, it was my privilege to present Royal Humane Society awards to four of my constituents—James Hendry, James McKay, Ewan Lambert and their skipper, James Buchan—from the Fraserburgh boat Renown, who showed exceptional courage and presence of mind in rescuing their crewmate, Billy Stephen, when he fell overboard off the coast of Norway last year. The ceremony at the Fishermen’s Mission building in Fraserburgh brought home once again the daily perils faced by our fishermen and put an all too human face on the dangers of fishing in a hostile marine environment. I pay tribute to those men today, and to all those who risk their lives at sea; to those who are serving in the Royal National Lifeboat Institution; to our coastguards; and to those in the Fishermen’s Mission charity, which provides so much support to families in our fishing communities.
Our debate this afternoon takes place against the backdrop of ongoing annual negotiations, and in the context of some very serious challenges facing all parts of the fishing industry. However, the debate is overshadowed by the ongoing legal wrangles over the cod recovery plan and the increasingly complicated and protracted negotiations over the failed common fisheries policy—and let us not forget the ongoing mackerel dispute.
I have always believed that fishing has the potential to be an inherently sustainable industry, whereby a renewable marine resource that provides us with healthy, nutritious food is harvested responsibly, creating jobs and supporting a vibrant economy. I believe that there is a commitment across this House and in all parts of the industry towards sustainability based on scientific evidence. However, sustainability is not just about our marine environment and fish stocks; it is also about the sustainability of our fishing industry and the coastal communities that depend on it. We must continue to build on the significant and steady progress that has been made in recent years to conserve stocks, harvest them sustainably and reduce discards, but we also have to tackle the intransigence of decision-making processes in the EU that do not have long-term sustainability at their heart.
Undoubtedly, the biggest threat to the sustainability of both our fish stocks and our fishing industry at the moment comes from the EU’s cod recovery plan, because of its impact on how we fish other stocks in a mixed fishery. There is a widespread recognition among scientists, fishermen and even members of the European Commission that the plan is seriously flawed and will not deliver its conservation objectives, but the review that was promised by the EU Commissioner for spring did not materialise until September, which means we could be well into next year before any changes to the plan come into effect.
There is now an unseemly squabble between different institutions in Europe about who has the right to propose amendments and technical conservation measures. So while the lawyers get rich, our whitefish fleet is left hanging, with our fishermen wondering how much fishing opportunity they will get next year and whether they can even stay in business.
Our fishermen have led the way in cod conservation. The cod stock in the North sea has more than doubled during the last six years and discard rates have halved in the past three years. That is substantial and significant progress—led, to a large extent, by the fishermen themselves—and we are seeing steady improvement in the cod stocks, and are on course to have a sustainable cod fishery in the North sea by 2015.
The proposal in the cod recovery plan to impose a 20% cut in the cod quota next year would be absolutely disastrous, both for fishermen and for conservation. It would actually increase discarding again, because the cod is recovering—it is ever more plentiful in the North sea—and in a mixed fishery it is increasingly hard to avoid cod by-catch. If fishermen have no quota to land that cod, it will end up back in the sea. That will make the catch quota scheme unviable and it will undermine the efforts to put the fishery on a sustainable footing.
A strong scientific case has been made for a roll-over of North sea cod quota this coming year, which would help conservation and continue the steady progress that has been made towards achieving recovery by 2015. I hope that the Minister will take the opportunity today to set out what he sees as the prospect of getting a common-sense agreement on this issue in Europe, and offer assurances that this issue will be right at the top of his priority list in the negotiations.
In the very brief time available to me, I also want to address the vexed issue of mackerel. The greater part of the UK pelagic fleet is based in Fraserburgh and Peterhead; I think that the rest is based largely in Orkney and Shetland. Mackerel is—by a very considerable margin—our most valuable stock. The pelagic fishery directly supports not only fishermen but literally hundreds of jobs in my constituency, in processing, distribution, retail and other sectors. It also provides a whole range of indirect support to the local economy.
The dispute over mackerel has now been raging for more than four years. Back in 2005, Iceland caught only 363 tonnes of mackerel, but in 2012 it awarded itself a unilateral quota of 145,000 tonnes. We are now in a situation where Iceland is currently taking 22% of the total allowable catch recommended by the International Council for the Exploration of the Sea, and the Faroes are taking 23%. That is completely arbitrary, wholly disproportionate and absolutely unacceptable.
Overfishing by Iceland and the Faroes is damaging the mackerel stocks, and the ICES advice that was published in September recommends a 15% cut in the total allowable catch for next year. Meanwhile, the Marine Stewardship Council accreditation that our pelagic industry worked so hard to secure has been suspended, because of the irresponsible fishing by the Icelandic and Faroese. The Faroese have even been accused of inviting foreign boats into their waters to fish their self-awarded quota because they do not have the capacity to fish those quantities themselves.
The most bitter irony of this situation, which I can assure Members is not lost on fishermen in the north-east, is that the science suggests that the expansion of the mackerel stock into Icelandic and Faroese waters in recent years has largely been a consequence of the responsible fishing practices of the Scottish and Norwegian fleets. However, the European Commission now wants to impose a further cut in mackerel quota, over and above the 15% cut recommended by the ICES advice, to compensate for the overfishing by Iceland and the Faroes. In other words, the Commission is seriously proposing penalising our fishermen for fishing responsibly and sustainably, while in effect rewarding the bad behaviour of Iceland and the Faroes by letting them fish with impunity.
If we actively reward Iceland and the Faroes in that way for their unsustainable fishing, there is no incentive whatsoever for them to stop. There is no reason for them to come back to the negotiating table, and there is every reason for them to continue the destructive fishing practices that are causing real damage to the mackerel stocks and making a complete mockery of international conservation efforts.
This issue does not just affect the pelagic fleet. There is a detrimental knock-on impact on those whitefish vessels that historically have fished in Faroese waters; again, some of those vessels are from my own constituency. It puts more pressure on our west coast fishing grounds and it displaces efforts back into the North sea. It also has real implications for processors all down the east coast, as I am sure the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) will attest.
The European Commission has stalled repeatedly over trade sanctions on Iceland and the Faroes, and it is now asking our fishermen to pay the price. It is proposing a preposterous solution that will exacerbate the problem and not resolve it. I know that the Minister wants to see a resolution to this situation, but I impress on him the urgency of this matter and ask what action the Government now plan to take to bring Iceland and the Faroes back around the table.
Before I conclude, I quickly want to make a couple of points about regionalisation and the CFP reform process. I know that the Minister is as keen as I am to secure meaningful regionalisation in the negotiations. However, I have some very real concerns about some of the compromise amendments proposed by the European Parliament rapporteur. One of them would establish a centralised approach to the management of fishing concessions, which is far removed from the regionalisation agenda. Does the Minister agree that it is important that member states retain the competence to design their own systems, within the requirements of EU law? And will the Government press that point?
There is also a crazy amendment proposing a mandatory closure of 10% of member states’ territorial waters for at least five years. It is not based on science or any understanding of the marine ecosystem, but it could gain currency. Again, I seek the Minister’s assurance that he will oppose this amendment in the strongest terms.
Lastly, there is very strong language in the rapporteur’s text about reducing capacity. Does the Minister agree that capacity is a red herring and is not the issue? The issue is how much fish is actually caught, and what we really need is a well-managed system in which discards are minimised.
I am conscious that I only have a few seconds left to speak. I wish the Minister well in the negotiations, and I hope that he comes back with a good deal for our fishermen.
Dr Matthew Offord (Hendon) (Con)
It is a pleasure to be called in the debate and to serve under your chairmanship, Ms Clark. I congratulate the hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) and the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) on securing the debate.
Many Members here today wish to speak about the fishing industry because of constituency interests, so it could be asked: what am I, as a London MP, doing also asking questions? The answer is simple. Many of my constituents eat fish, just like the father of the hon. Member for Hartlepool (Mr Wright)—I, too, wish him a happy birthday. Also, as I grew up in Cornwall and around the coast, I am particularly interested in the sea. I challenge anyone here who has not done so to read Rachel Carson’s “The Sea Around Us”, and to marvel at the majesty of the oceans, as described there. I also challenge anyone who disputes the environmental degradation of the sea to read one of Callum Roberts’s books, and to learn for themselves about the problems that the sea, the wider ecosystem and the environmental community face. I make no apology for drawing heavily on both those conservationists. I believe that my plagiarism is just a testament to their ideas—ideas that we, as decision makers, should consider.
I would like the Minister to consider several things as part of the UK’s fishing policy. I have some ideas that might increase the sustainability of fish stocks and the biodiversity of species, their habitats and changes in the food web structure on our coasts. I believe that we should reduce the amount of fishing. We cannot say that we were not warned about this issue many times, many years ago. As long ago as 1948, in his “Rational fishing of the cod of the North Sea”, Michael Graham noted that
“the properties of an over-fished stock are such that all attempts at improvement will be unsuccessful so long as there is not some limitation of the total fishing power expended per annum, involving fishing by all nations.”
Where there is no restriction on access, people will pile into the industry all the while there are profits to be made.
Sheryll Murray
Does my hon. Friend not agree that coastal communities disproportionately rely on fishing jobs, and that we should not only be considering the conservation of fish stocks but taking into account the conservation of fishermen?
Dr Offord
Having grown up in Cornwall and having conducted my PhD research on economic development in the county, I certainly agree. The local authority in Cornwall has a great role to play in that, but it is not currently doing so. Agriculture and fisheries are concerns in Cornwall, and those concerns are not being addressed, so I do agree with my hon. Friend.
Under the common fisheries policy, countries have had their access limited, but fishing capacity can still increase to excessive levels because of technological innovation. A decade ago it was estimated that the fishing fleet in the North sea was already 40% larger than was sustainable, so it is understandable that one of the CFP’s main thrusts is to decommission vessels. In October, I asked the Minister about the Government’s policy on the decommissioning of fishing vessels and he advised me that decommissioning was not a policy of this Government. It was, however, Government policy back in the 1930s, particularly regarding the herring fishing fleet.
I accept that decommissioning is not a panacea for the fishing industry’s problems. The first to sell up are usually those who have the worst fishing records and those with the oldest boats. In practical terms, the owners of the large fishing fleets will often sell their oldest vessels and put the money into buying new ships and fleets, and they will also put the money into fishing gear and electronics. That is, therefore, only one step that we should take, but I ask the Minister to consider it.
I also ask the Minister to consider the elimination of what I call risk-prone decision making. What I mean by that is that we should take elected politicians out of the decision-making process.
Dr Offord
The Minister nods in approval, but I hope he understands my rationale.
The time scales of politics and fishery management are as distinct as beef and mackerel. The two things exist in completely different time frames. Ministers and politicians usually exist in very short time frames, and the decisions taken by fisheries Ministers are often not felt for at least five or 10 years, which is usually one or even two parliamentary terms and fisheries Ministers later. We have, therefore, Ministers who end up picking up the pieces of previous poor decisions.
I would also like to consider the elimination of catch quotas, and instead to implement controls on the amount of fishing. The intention would be to replace catch quotas with limits on fishing efforts that would help the fishing industry. Landing quotas do not stop fish being killed, legally at least. By limiting fishing effort, the Government can prevent fish stocks from being killed, and allow them to live longer and produce more offspring.
Andrew George
I do not want this to become a Cornish debate between Cornish Members, but if the hon. Gentleman wishes to present a polarisation between fishermen and environmentalists he has perhaps misunderstood the issue. Increasingly these days fishermen are working with scientists, and the way forward is to encourage them to work together towards a sustainable fishing industry. It is not that fishermen want to fish the seas out; they are interested in a sustainable fishing industry for the future.
Dr Offord
I am obviously giving that impression, but I can certainly reassure the hon. Gentleman that that is not my intention. I do not believe that that is what fishermen in this country do. Hopefully, I will provide that reassurance as I make several more points.
A fourth reform that I would like to see, and which has been mentioned already, is to require fishermen to keep what they catch, as occurs in countries such as Norway. We all agree that discarding fish is a tragic waste. Most of the fish that are caught are dead when they are returned to the sea, so even when we comply with quotas nothing is achieved, because all we do is throw back dead fish. For years, EU regulators insisted that vessels should throw back over-quotas because otherwise over-catching would be rewarded.
I believe, and I hope that this point provides some reassurance, that such a reform could be a powerful conservation measure. If we provide and enforce limits on fishing effort, the proposal will work, because different catches are worth different amounts, depending on size and on the species caught. Crews become more selective, choosing the target species that make them more money, and they also supply low-value catch species for other uses such as fishmeal or, as we have heard, stargazy pie. Methods that allow greater selectivity include modifying fishing gear and choosing fishing grounds more selectively, and the reform would become an economic incentive, achieved through best practice.
I would also like the Minister to consider requiring fishermen to use gear modified to reduce by-catch. For years, Government laboratories have shown that they have designed such gear, but experience shows that the industry is reluctant to change its gear because of the financial implications, and possibly because the new gear could reduce the total catch. The only way to enforce such a change would be through legislation.
I would also like the Minister to comment on banning or restricting the most damaging catching methods. Some fishing gear causes untold environmental damage. Bottom trawl nets crush and sever bottom-living species. Gear used to trawl in deep water is heavier than that used in shallower water. The heavy steel rollers on the ground rope and the 5-tonne plates that hold the net open cause irreparable damage but the practice does not have to be universally banned. Large expanses of shallow-water continental shelf are dominated by gravel, sand and mud, which is perfect for trawling, and repeated trawling actually favours some communities of animals and plants that are resilient to its effect. Farmers plough their fields, but not every single year, and the same could occur in parts of the ocean. I have no problem with trawling, but I believe that we should establish how often it can occur.
Finally, I would like the Minister to consider implementing extensive networks of marine reserves that are off limits to fishing. We have already heard one Member’s concerns about the economic conditions. Earlier today, I heard the Minister speak about the number of conservation areas that are being considered. The hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) said that she would like to see those that are rejected replaced by others. I would like to see the number increased. The total number of 127 represents only 27% of the UK’s coastline. This could be an economic opportunity, rather than a problem for fishermen.
I am a great supporter of the fishing industry, and I want it to continue to be profitable, vibrant and safe. Many Members have mentioned the terrible health and safety record in the industry, which is due to the very dangerous nature of fishing. I would also like to see the opportunity to improve the fish stocks in this country, and we can do that unilaterally, away from the European Union and not as part of the CFP. I believe that it is possible to achieve those ends.
Austin Mitchell (Great Grimsby) (Lab)
We should be grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for giving us this debate, although the fishing debates before previous December Fisheries Council meetings were always three-hour debates on the Floor of the House. I commend to the Minister the idea of going back to that. Rather than exhausting Back-Bench resources on providing our own debate, this debate should be on the Floor of the House.
I had hoped to be the first fisherman of England to speak, because the weight of the industry has drifted north to Scotland, but I have been preceded by the hon. Members for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) and for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw).
The hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood spoke of the quota hoppers in Fleetwood. Some years back I chaired the Fisheries Sub-Committee of the Select Committee on Agriculture. We went to Vigo in Spain, and I was asked whether I would like to meet the chairman of the Fleetwood Fishing Vessel Owners Association, who was introduced to me and did not speak a word of English. As I spoke no Spanish, there was no meeting of minds on that occasion, but it indicates the extent to which quota hoppers have become important to the English industry.
This debate is part of a long war we have had to change the common fisheries policy, and in my case to scrap it. The Conservative party no longer adopts my position for some inexplicable reason, so we are talking about improving the common fisheries policy to make it more bearable because, frankly, it has not worked and is not working.
Making the common fisheries policy work will be very difficult, because the nation state is the conserver of its own fishing interests, and it has an interest in conservation to hand on its fishing industry. We are gradually reforming the CFP, but it is still a top-down operation—a Gosplan of the seas—rather than a locally controlled operation. That is why we need to move closer to regional control by strengthening the regional advisory councils, which are doing a good job. Some of the powers handled from Brussels, such as those on catch quotas, fishing methods and the closing and opening of grounds, should be exercised locally in the area concerned by the regional advisory council. We will have further complications now that there is co-decision making by the European Parliament, which means all sorts of political factors will intrude.
Sheryll Murray
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that the obstacle to real regionalisation is the dreaded “equal access to a common resource” clause? Does he agree that the Minister needs to remove that clause from the regulation?
Austin Mitchell
Absolutely. I assume the Minister to be superhuman, and that should be a central point of our negotiations. The intrusion of the European Parliament into co-decision making will make it much more difficult, because there will be all sorts of extraneous interests. It will be interesting to hear the views of Luxembourg on North sea cod quotas, but that is slightly irrelevant to our problem. A lot more conservation interests will intrude into what should basically be fishing decisions.
To make the common fisheries policy work effectively we have to hand more power down to the regional advisory councils, because they are more sensitive to the problems of their area. Those problems include the cod conservation plan, which will be difficult to manage. Frankly, the plan is not successful, but if we adhere to it, it will enforce cuts of some 20% in the total allowable catches, which is nearly impossible for the industry to bear. I hope the Minister will oppose that, because other states certainly will. We cannot preserve a plan that is not working effectively by accepting 20% cuts in the TACs. It is better to rely on scientific advice, which states that the stocks are, in the main, improving. Some of the scientific advice the Commission is getting is fallacious—it seems to me that we have fixed quotas on the basis of saying that there is no scientific advice on stocks such as cod west of Scotland and haddock, whiting and plaice in area VII. Those are all unnecessary because the scientific advice is available, and the stocks will bear increased catches. Let us not follow the EU cod plan, as the co-decision making may force us to do. That should go to the regional advisory council.
[Mr Graham Brady in the Chair]
The Government have been criticised for missing the 2012 deadline for designating 127 marine conservation areas, and I do not blame them for that. They are right to miss that deadline, and I am happy about it, because it is impossible to fix those areas without first agreeing a firm code of conduct, as the National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations has argued. I would not want the marine conservation areas to become yet another restriction on fishing quotas and catches, making the whole area a patchwork quilt of different requirements. We need a good, tough code of conduct before we define the areas.
Discards have been turned into a major issue by Mr Fearnley-Whittingstall’s brilliant, entertaining film. He argues that the ban operates in Norway, but of course Norway does not have the same mixed fishing that we have, so it is easier to enforce discards. From talking to Norwegians, I know that the discard ban is not perfect; discards are still going on in Norwegian waters. The only way to approach this is as the industry has approached it. We have reduced discards by some 50% over 10 years, which can be done only through further measures on selective gear. We cannot have a total ban on discards without fitting every vessel with closed circuit television to see what they are catching and what is happening to it. Policing on that basis would be impossible. There may be a case for requiring everything to be landed and sold—not for landfill, which is silly, but at no great return to the skipper concerned. A total ban, as defined by the Commission, is going to be impossible for several years.
Finally, I do not want to approach the emotional relationship between Scotland and England on the mackerel situation—we have just been passing notes about that here. I can understand the anger of Scottish fishermen about Iceland and the Faroes—but I am more sympathetic to the Icelandic point of view than might be good for my health if I ever go to Scotland. First, for a long time Iceland and the Faroes were in a weak position in the negotiations on fixing the quotas, and their catches needed to be increased. Secondly, the stock is going north with global warming, so there are more mackerel in Icelandic waters for Iceland to catch. Thirdly, the situation is eventually going to be solved by negotiation, so let us get the negotiations, which broke off in October, going again. We should not impose sanctions, because Icelandic fish are our lifeblood in Grimsby. They are all that supplies the market. If the Minister goes along with a ban or some kind of discrimination against Iceland, I assure him that he will earn the long-term hatred of every fish and chip shop in the north of England, which is a great burden for anyone to face, so he should not support a ban.
I shall conclude—my time is nearly out anyway—by saying that the Minister has a difficult job, because he has to conciliate support from other areas that do not have the same interest in British fish stocks that we have. That is a process for the current negotiations and for the December Council. He also has to take a firm position on renegotiation to strengthen the British role, British catches and the British industry in the long-term definition of the common fisheries policy.
Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)
It is a pleasure to speak in the debate under your chairmanship, Mr Brady. I congratulate the hon. Members for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) and for South Down (Ms Ritchie) on securing the debate. I apologise because I may have to leave early, before the Front Benchers sum up, to attend an evening event in my constituency.
My comments will be focused on the inshore fleet along the East Anglian coast. In some respects, at first glance, some might say that not a lot has happened in the industry since we debated the matter last year. Fishermen have struggled on with their daily lives, finding it increasingly difficult to make a living. In Lowestoft, in my constituency, more are giving up the struggle and selling their boats and the fleet shrinks still further, becoming a pale shadow of its former self. Away from the coast, however, a lot is happening, in Brussels and in the courtroom, which will determine whether there is a viable future for the inshore industry, albeit different from what it was in the past, or whether it will be just a fading memory, which we will only be reminded of in photographs and museums.
In Brussels, the review of the common fisheries policy is taking place. Commissioner Maria Damanaki has long recognised the failings of the CFP, a bankrupt policy that has devastated both fish stocks and fishing communities. There is too much bureaucracy, an over-centralised system and obscene levels of discards, which the public find abhorrent. The new CFP must satisfy three criteria: the need for local management by the people who know their fisheries best; a much simpler process; and a more sustainable system that protects fish stocks and provides fishermen with a realistic chance of earning a living, thereby encouraging young people to come into the industry.
There are signs that the Commission now appreciates the gravity of the problem and the need for action. There was a breakthrough in negotiations in June, at which I understand that the Minister played a part in knocking heads together.
Having studied the Commission’s proposals, which I will not go through in detail, I think that they appear to be a step in the right direction, but I am concerned. First, the Commission recognised the folly of and the devastation caused by the centralised system pursued over the past 30 years and proposes to replace it with a high-level framework. However, I am worried that this in itself will be too much of a straitjacket, too mandatory and too prescriptive. No two fisheries are the same across an area that extends from the Baltic down to the Mediterranean. As we are hearing today, fisheries around Britain are different in terms of catch and methods used.
Secondly, with regard to the Commission’s proposals for transferrable fishing concessions, I question, based on the UK’s experience with quotas, to which I shall refer later, whether a rights-based system is a sensible and sustainable way forward.
It is right that proposals are being brought forward for the elimination of discards. That will not be easy to achieve, as most of our fisheries, as we have heard, are mixed. There is a danger, as the Minister has said in the past, that any problem is transferred from sea to land. A lot of effort and innovative thinking is required. There is a need to engage with scientists, such as those at the Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science in Lowestoft, to promote different types of fish for the dinner table and to modify gear.
I should be grateful if the Minister responded to the following point, even if I am not here when he does so. I understand that nine pilot projects were chosen to promote the use of new gear, but only one at Ramsgate is still running. I would welcome an explanation of that and of what happened to the other eight.
The elephant in the room is quota. To whom does it belong and who is responsible for its management? We have avoided this question for many years. However, we may get the answer next year, when a decision is reached on the judicial review taken out by the Aberdeen Fish Producers Organisation. The outcome of the case, in my view, will shape the future face of fishing communities in Britain for a generation. I commend the Minister on bringing the matter to a head, although I understand that he may not wish to say too much about the case or to express any opinion. I shall do this for him. It is vital that that PO’s case is not upheld. It should be determined that fish stock is a national asset that should be managed on behalf of the nation and not treated as a commodity to be sold off to the highest bidder.
Any future quota management system must satisfy three criteria. Proper records need to be kept—we have not done that for many years—there must be complete transparency, and fishing rights should only be awarded to those who fish.
The inshore fleet—the under-10s—must be given a fair deal. Its problem is that although it comprises nearly 90% of the UK fleet, fishes sustainably and provides real value for the communities where its fishermen live, it receives little quota. The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs proposes a modest increase, but the problem faced by the under-10s is that they will be required to produce details of their past catch quotas. They are being asked to produce records that invariably they do not have and which they were never told that they would need.
I urge the Minister to review the position. I commend the work of Jerry Percy of the New Under Ten Fishermen’s Association, who has worked tirelessly to promote the cause of the under-10 fishermen, who are dispersed around the country. At present, he is considering the creation of a separate producers organisation for the under-10s, taking the view that if you can’t beat them, join them. That is a sensible course to pursue. Fishermen, who, like dairy farmers, find themselves at the mercy of large processors and food stores in respect of negotiations, need to strengthen their position in the food chain. I urge the Minister to find the necessary funding to support this initiative to help get it off the ground. Perhaps the European maritime and fisheries fund could be used.
At times, the Minister must feel that we all have it in for him. I think that I speak for all hon. Members in this Chamber when I say that we do not. I applaud him for the work that he is doing. The problem is that he has arrived on the scene when the British inshore fleet is in crisis and is a small remnant of an industry that brought jobs and prosperity to ports such as Lowestoft. The glory days will not return, but there is an opportunity to build a new, different industry, where those who fish sustainably have a viable future and where we bring an end to unsustainable fishing practices that do so much to damage our marine environment.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Brady. I will not speak for long, because much of what I wished to say has been said by other hon. Members who are much more knowledgeable and expert in these matters than me.
There are endless problems with fish stocks, overfishing, discards, rogue behaviour by other states, and so on, and at the root of those is the common fisheries policy. I applaud the Minister for doing his best in difficult circumstances and I believe that he sympathises with our case—he goes to Brussels to negotiate on our behalf—but we must give him more stiffening than that. As I suggested in the main Chamber previously, we must say that if we cannot get the CFP abolished, we will give notice that at a point, perhaps three years hence, we will withdraw from it and re-establish our 200-mile, or median-line, limit and manage our fish stocks. As the hon. Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) rightly says, fish stocks should be regarded as a national asset, not something to be plundered by all and sundry in an unregulated way.
I have called for the abolition of the common fisheries policy. We ought to keep on saying this, because although we have won the argument, we have not won the victory as yet.
There is a logic, which Norway exhibits, that if a country has its own fish stocks and fishing area, it can monitor and control it. Every fishing vessel and catch in Norwegian waters is monitored. Although my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell) tells me that there are some discards, by and large the Norwegians are against discards. When we are short of fish, and stocks are being depleted, what a nonsense policy it is that we are throwing away dead fish, all to reinforce some idea of a market.
We ought to follow Norway’s lead and re-establish our own national fishing waters and other countries should do that as well. It is nonsense that land-locked countries that have no interest in North sea and Irish sea fishing can vote freely on what happens to the common fisheries policy. I understand that the European Commission will not even allow bilateral agreements between neighbouring countries to control their fishing, because that looks like undermining the freedom for everybody to pillage those fishing stocks as and when they are able to do so.
I want to reinforce the arguments in favour of abolishing the common fisheries policy and moving towards a world in which each country controls its own fishing area, up to the 200-mile, or median-line, limit. If the Spanish wish to overfish their seas, they can, but they will learn in time that it is foolish to do so. Newfoundland fished out all the stocks around its coasts, which was a disaster, and Spain should learn from its mistakes. We would not make the same mistake; I think we would behave much more responsibly, and so would many other countries. However, only when countries are responsible for their own fishing stocks will they behave responsibly.
As I say, I support those who call for the abolition of the common fisheries policy, and I want to reinforce the Minister’s negotiating strength in Brussels. I also suggest that we give notice that, in time, we will withdraw from the common fisheries policy if it is not abolished.
Mr Graham Brady (in the Chair)
Order. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for keeping his remarks so brief. Given the large number of Members wishing to participate in the debate, I am going to reduce the time limit to five minutes. I apologise for that.
George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con)
Thank you very much, Mr Brady. Oh golly, where do I start? I am the chair of the all-party group on angling. Previously, that role was performed by my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker), who is well known for his short speeches, and if he had been here today, I suspect he might have said, “If not now, when can I go fishing?” That is what he and I like to do, and we like to do a lot of it.
I want to concentrate briefly on chalk streams, which are a unique ecosystem. Some 80% of all the chalk stream habitat in the world is in Britain, and 60% of that is in the south. We are very keen to spend vast amounts on climate change mitigation, which is perfectly sensible, but at the same time, we have a unique habitat in our backyard, and it appears that, in the short term at least, we are not prepared to protect it in the same way.
As of Monday morning, I shall be at a hotel in Stockbridge chairing something called the Chalkstream summit. Those of us involved started off by inviting 30 people to it, because we thought it would be a niche issue, and that we would get some interest from riparian owners, managers and so forth. However, the numbers rose to 40 and then to 60, and we now have more than 100 organisations represented at the summit—there is huge interest. Unfortunately, the Minister can no longer, for perfectly understandable reasons, make it to the summit, and we are grateful to him for getting another Minister to come along.
The nub of the concern of those involved in the summit is the draft Water Bill. The White Paper was full of good intentions, particularly about abstraction, but the draft Bill does not, thus far, contain adequate measures to change the extraction environment in the south. It has no proposals for large-scale reform of the current abstraction scheme or means by which that could happen, and it does not tackle the current, unsustainable abstraction, risking further environmental damage.
Let me put the situation in context. A gentleman called Howard Taylor, who runs the Testwood fishery at the bottom of the Test, wrote to me, saying:
“Testwood is facing this pending abstraction by Southern Water and the installation of a pipeline over to Otterbourne as they are no longer allowed to abstract from the Itchen due to its SPA”—
special protection area—
“status.
Southern water are about to invest over £50m at the Testwood pumping station and pipeline and will be legally able to abstract under the historic licence…This investment will enable them to abstract up to the licence maxima of 136 mega litres/day! At present the plant is only capable of 60 to 70 mega litres/day.”
That will mean that, at certain times, 65% of all the water in the Test might be being abstracted. There is a failsafe built in, which states that the minimum residual flow must be 1 cumec—roughly equivalent to 91 megalitres. In the summer, at their lowest, the upper reaches of the tiny River Wylie in Wiltshire flow at 2 cumecs. Can hon. Members imagine what we are doing to this incredibly important environmental asset?
I know the Government take this issue seriously. Their catchment plans are good, as are many of the intentions announced in the water White Paper, but time is running out. We had a near disaster this summer, but we were rescued at the end by the rain goddess—the then Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my right hon. Friend the Member for Meriden (Mrs Spelman)—but it was too close for comfort. I recognise that sustainable economic growth in the south is necessary, and that that relies on good supplies of water, but that requires sustainable water supplies—we cannot have one without the other. We can have sustainable economic growth if we have sustainable water supplies and, as a consequence of that, a sustainable environment.
Will we honestly look ourselves happily in the eye in 20 years’ time if an ecosystem that we have absolute and direct control over in this country has been destroyed? Surely not. It is time for DEFRA to lay out concrete proposals. The water White Paper’s promises on abstraction regimes must be delivered, and we must know exactly how and when that will happen. There must reform of abstraction licences and strategic management of water resources. We need to build storage facilities in the south; if we do not, we will run out of water.
The new Angling Trust has surveyed 29,000 people, and it has found that up to 4 million people have gone fishing in the last two years, with many more interested in taking up the sport. Fishing generates £3.5 billion a year for the economy and employs 37,000 people. While the debate may be more generally about fisheries in coastal waters, angling is extremely important to this country. It involves a large group of people and is a very valuable industry, so I know the Government will be keen to look carefully at the interests of those involved.
Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
I will try to keep my remarks brief. I see my five minutes not as a target to aim for but as the amount of time I have to get a number of issues out.
I want to pick up on a few issues relating to the west coast of Scotland, and particularly the Hebrides. My constituency is the longest in the UK, and it has a very large coastline. Prawn fisheries are very important, and we welcome next year’s 18% increase in the nephrop quota. We also welcome the management of effort, and we feel that the kilowatt-days should not be reduced. However, we are in favour of more effective stock conservation controls. The best method at the moment is controlling fishing days per month; at about 16 days, that has worked quite effectively since August, and it could perhaps rise to 18 days next summer. The 12-day plan for January seemed to be acceptable all round to my fishermen, and the approach has had a steadying effect for them as well as securing onshore jobs that depend on the fishing industry.
Mrs McGuire
Does the hon. Gentleman accept that the shellfish stock that is fished off the Outer Hebrides—lobster, crab, langoustine and prawns—are among the best in Europe? However, there is no sustainable infrastructure to take them down to the mainland British market, and much of the catch from his islands goes to the Spanish market, which is causing uncertainty at the moment.
Mr MacNeil
The right hon. Lady is very well versed in the fisheries in my constituency, and I should tell Members that her son, Paul, fishes from my island and fishes very well, and has done so for a number of years. She makes an absolutely great point about the abundance and wealth of great food that comes from the west of the Hebrides. That is not properly appreciated in the UK, and that food often goes to markets in France and Spain.
At this point, I should point out that there is a big infrastructure behind that industry, and there are lorries transporting the shellfish. Tragically, about a month ago, a young man from my island, Michael MacNeil, who had taken shellfish to France, was killed coming back along the road from Bordeaux to Angoulême with his empty lorry. It was a very sad day for the island and for the wider fishing community, which he knew very well.
I would like to draw the Minister’s attention to the issue of non-targeted dogfish, or spurdog. I should probably declare an interest, because I fished it as a targeted species in 1995, so I am perhaps partly responsible for its ensuing difficulties. They regularly appear in the Minches every winter, and they are worth about £60 a box. Sometimes on a tour, a boat can dump up to 10 to 15 boxes of these good, healthy fish because there is no quota to land them. If the boat did not have to dump them, they could be worth about £600 to £900, which could give the boat a good extra margin. The fish could be sold as rock salmon, as they used to be in a number of places, rather than, unfortunately, ending up on the rocks. I hope I am not making that plea in vain, because in the past, I have raised the issue of haddock in a debate such as this.
Andrew George
The hon. Gentleman is aware, no doubt, that those fish are extremely slow-growing. They do not reach sexual maturity until their teens and there are two years of pregnancy. With a falling quota there is clearly a need to manage things with intelligence and skill. We need to be concentrating on much more selective gear, to avoid catching them as by-catch.
Mr MacNeil
The hon. Gentleman is correct, and fishermen do their best to avoid them, because they are a nuisance for them. However, it is heartbreaking to throw healthy fish back into the sea dead. We had a similar situation with haddock in the Minches during the cod recovery plan, a couple of years ago, which ironically meant haddock being dumped, reducing the amount going to market. Then demand was inevitably placed on cod, which was nonsensical. The good news was that after that period, and the resulting outcry, the haddock quota was increased by 200%. I look forward to similar action on dogfish. Landing it should be allowed, with the safeguard that it is non-targeted by-catch; the fish are being caught anyway. A distinction should be made between catch and landing, which often do not marry up, because of dumping and discounts. If we took a fuller approach we would be better off economically, and fish would go to people’s plates, rather than being dead at the bottom of the sea.
Another issue that has been raised in my community concerns some fishermen who want new boats. There are difficulties in making improvements in comfort and safety, but unless a vessel has a track record of fishing in a particular area they cannot get a boat. That is surely not sustainable in the long term. If that had been the policy in the 1920s we would still have people going out in sail boats. We are looking for basic common sense, so that things can change, and so that we can let communities be flexible and fishing fleets be renewed naturally over time.
The penultimate issue that my Hebridean fishing community of Na h-Eileanan an Iar would like me to raise is the introduction of a community quota for mackerel and herring, which swim in abundance in our waters. Originally herring were a staple of the Hebrides. There is a nice story of a Lewisman arriving a couple of centuries ago at university in Aberdeen. The lecturer brought him to the front of the lecture theatre and asked him to show his teeth to the then broken-toothed Aberdonians, and claimed that Donald had the teeth he did because he had been raised on herring and potatoes. Given that heritage, we would look for a quota of about 200 tonnes of each species to be locally managed for the local market and local consumption. The west coast herring quota is about 13,500 tonnes and the UK mackerel quota is 191,000 tonnes, and I do not think what I am asking for is unreasonable at all.
Communities should have a bigger stake. At the moment the UK pelagic sector is controlled by about 20 boats in Scotland, three in Northern Ireland and a small number in England. A healthy acquaintance with the culture of food is in danger of being lost. The issue is also about a sense of history, not to mention health, because the fish are rich in omega 3 oils. Two hundred tonnes is not an unreasonable amount to ask for, when we think of the amount of quota that there is. Also, we would need that much at £500 to £700 a tonne, because it would cost about £10,000 for a boat to be rigged out to be involved in a community pelagic quota. Such a step would demonstrate regional management at a local level, and would provide a crucial local say—as mentioned by the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith)—in the fisheries and the fish that swim abundantly around the Hebrides.
Finally, I ask that we treat with some disdain the ever-spawning bureaucratic output from the European Union, especially in connection with the sea. When ideas do not allow for consideration of economic impact, that surely explains much about why the EU is in its present situation. That is why we should, as the hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) said, be well clear of the common fisheries policy.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Brady. I thank the hon. Members for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) and for South Down (Ms Ritchie) for obtaining the debate. It has taken place in the past in the main Chamber, and that would be a good idea in the future. Perhaps it could be held in Government time, which would also be of benefit. I pay tribute to those who risk, and sometimes give, their lives so that we can eat fish. Part of my family comes from the coal mining industry and I know what it is for people to work in occupations where there is great risk.
This is the fourth time that I have spoken in a fisheries debate, which is quite a good record for a landlocked Member of Parliament. I looked back at a speech I made some years ago, and themes I picked up then have been repeated by other hon. Members today. Progress has been made on some of them, and others await resolution. One theme was that, as with all food chains, we must get as much value as possible from the product. My hon. Friends the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) and for Waveney (Peter Aldous) made that point. It is not just the value of the catch that is important, but the value added to it by processing. Keeping that as local as possible, and marketing it well, is essential for the industry.
At the time of my earlier speech we were waiting for the draft of the Bill that is now the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. We look forward to the designation of marine conservation areas. That raises huge issues for the fishing industry, but the industry is dependent, as everything else to do with the sea is, on areas where fish can spawn and, indeed, juveniles can be recruited without being fished out of existence. Everyone believes, I think, that the common fisheries policy is best delivered on a regional basis. So much work needs to be done: the control of fishing, quotas and effort—the time that vessels can be at sea—must be under the control of regional operators, although there should be a central overview.
In a previous debate I dealt with the technical measures to ensure that fishermen use gear that can minimise by-catch. I understand that the Scottish industry has spearheaded a range of conservation initiatives, including technical modifications to fishing gear and real-time area closures, which has reduced discards and aided fish stock recovery for a wide range of species. The European Marine and Fisheries Fund must support those moves.
Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)
I want to mention that my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd) and I believe action on technical measures and effort control needs to be piloted also in the under- 10 metre sector, which needs to prove that that approach is a more effective fisheries management tool than the current regime.
Roger Williams
I thank my hon. Friend who is a champion of the under-10 metre operators. She makes a good point about how that sector, in particular, can reduce discards by improving gear.
I want to mention a few constituency issues, even though we are landlocked. Stephen Marsh-Smith runs the Wye and Usk Foundation, which has for a number of years been improving the quality of the environment in those fantastic salmon and trout rivers. He has done terrific work on the main rivers and, more particularly, on the tributaries. He has ensured that fish can have access to spawning areas high up on the tributaries where they have never had access before. When they get there, the spawning areas are of a very high standard, which means many more fry survive. The foundation sends a letter every month, and I received one about three weeks ago which said that despite a reasonable amount of rain there was still not enough water in the tributaries for fish to access their spawning areas. With the weather that we have had recently, the fish will now be able to obtain those areas and we look forward to a good spawning season.
The fishing industry is so important to the nation and coastal areas in particular. We look to the Minister to do all that he can in the negotiations he will be attending. It must be difficult for any industry that has to invest large amounts of money in vessels and gear to be dependent on year-by-year negotiations for its livelihood.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams). I congratulate the hon. Members for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) and for South Down (Ms Ritchie) on securing the debate. Like them, I have been engaged in debates on fisheries—primarily in the main Chamber, although sadly not on this occasion—for 15 years, although I know that the Member for Aberdeen North has done so for a great deal longer. I therefore approach the debate with a perspective of déjà vu, as we go over the same subjects time and again.
Last week, I met the chief executive and others from the National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations in Portcullis House. I asked him to reflect on the past decade or so and what is different now. Is it simply that we all trundle out each year and say the same things, then trundle back until next year, when we say the same things again? He said what I remember repeating some 10 or 15 years ago: the essential need for fishermen and scientists to work together a great deal more. When I was on the Select Committee on Agriculture, as it was then known, we went to Spain and saw the stark difference between how this country managed its fishing industry and how the Spanish managed theirs: instead of fishermen and scientists being at loggerheads as they were in this country, in Spain they were working together and ensuring that the fishery was evidence-based.
To take fisheries policy forward, there are a number of building blocks in terms of the powers in the UK and those we are trying to influence in Europe, as is repeated year on year. As I think we all agree, some of the blunt instruments that underlie the failed common fisheries policy need to be put aside and replaced by themes such as the essential importance of scientists and fishermen working closely together, regionalisation and, in my view, greater emphasis on closed-area satellite surveillance and other forms of enforcement to achieve the necessary progress. My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Dr Offord), who is no longer in his place, proposed an alternative way forward that requires engagement with fishermen. I notice that he went out of his way, for one moment, to criticise Conservative-controlled Cornwall council and how it is managing fisheries. I have to say that I thoroughly endorse that sentiment.
Sheryll Murray
Will my hon. Friend clarify his remarks and explain how Cornwall council is responsible for managing fisheries? The inshore fisheries and conservation authority may be responsible for managing fisheries eventually, but I know of no committee on Cornwall council at the moment with fisheries management powers.
Andrew George
I will gladly respond. My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon made the remarks, and he was critical of the local authority. The IFCA is the level at which the local authority engages with fisheries, in particular on under-10s, but there are many other ways to influence fisheries in Cornwall, such as planning, transport and other council functions. I simply want to put on record which party leads that local authority.
A number of issues have been raised. My hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) raised the important issue of the mackerel quota and the risk of losing some of it, in the absence of any consultation with the industry. The mackerel hand-line sector has the lowest possible effect on the fishery—anything below size or over quota, because it is a pelagic fishery, gets thrown back and lives. It is the most primitive method of fishing, and it only has 0.83% of the total UK quota. The Marine Management Organisation is considering removing some of that quota because we have had a couple of years of low stocks in the area, not through overfishing but simply because migratory patterns change from time to time. In fact, the ability to switch that quota to cod and other species that are abundant in our waters is an important part of the method by which inshore fishermen manage their fishery. The Minister has had a letter from me on the subject, so I hope that he will consider it.
The hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil) mentioned the spurdog as a by-catch inshore. A number of fishermen in my constituency— I wrote to the Minister on behalf of Chris Bean of Helford, for example—have been affected in exactly the same way by the unavoidable by-catch of spurdog, for example. Working with scientists, we need to find ways to avoid those by-catches. If the fish are caught and not going to live, clearly there should be an agreeable method of landing them, if it were possible to distinguish between intended and unintended by-catch, which I know is an issue of which the Minister and others are seized.
On the annual round, the Cornish Fish Producers Organisation echoes many of the sentiments of the NFFO, because many of the country-wide issues also affect the country of Cornwall, but in spades. Cornwall has an ultra-mixed fishery, so evidence-based policy is fundamentally important in applying quota systems to it.
The Minister should also take into account recreational sea anglers, who are not properly represented and have no one to sponsor their activity, which is important to tourism. In that regard, Malcolm Gilbert and John Munday from my constituency have emphasised the need to ensure that we strike a balance in taking policy forward, not only in the IFCAs but throughout the industry.
Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)
I am proud to represent Brixham, which lands the highest value catch in England, worth £26 million. I am pleased that the Minister has already visited our fantastic new fish market, and I look forward to welcoming him back next year. He knows how important shellfish are to the industry locally, not only because 99% of scallops are landed for processing in the area, creating local jobs, but because the majority are then exported, adding significantly to our balance of payments.
Scallop fishermen, however, are under considerable pressure. They are regulated not by quotas, but by limitations to their effort through their kilowatt days at sea. They are therefore seeking an increase in the effort available to them in area VII and, as the Minister knows, the French have 5 million unused kilowatt days. Earlier this year some dangerous intimidation of Brixham fishermen occurred around the baie de Seine, arising from French grievance in relation to a closed season that our fishermen do not have to respect. It strikes us, therefore, that there is a lot of room for an arrangement of mutual benefit. I hope that in summing up the Minister will inform us of any progress.
In the next round of negotiations, will the Minister also make representations on behalf of Brixham scallop fishermen for an increase in their effort, which is vital to Brixham’s local economy? Many people will make the case that scallop dredging is too environmentally damaging. I receive letters and e-mails saying that we should abandon it in favour of diver-caught scallops, but they would then be wholly unaffordable for most people, and that would completely destroy an industry. My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon (Dr Offord), who is no longer in his place, referred to the work of Callum Roberts. Anyone who has read his moving work, “The Unnatural History of the Sea”, will know that another way forward, which we are adopting, is to find areas of sanctuary.
In my area, there is a proposal for a large marine conservation zone of about 250 sq km, to be known as the Skerries. That will join a special area of conservation and will become a very large area. I welcome MCZs, but my concern is that we already have a successful inshore potting agreement in that area. Those who are part of the potting industry and use static gear in that area already operate in an environmentally sustainable way under that agreement. Understandably, they are worried about the impact. If it is too restrictive, and the area becomes a no-take zone, not only would that be unnecessary, it would destroy their industry. Will the Minister update those in my constituency who use static gear on the likely management arrangements in the proposed MCZ? The areas and their management will be announced next year.
Sheryll Murray
Does my hon. Friend agree that sometimes a scallop dredger will stir up feed to attract other fish, and that it does not always destroy the ground?
Dr Wollaston
I thank my hon. Friend for making that point. We all want scallop dredging to be removed from environmentally sensitive parts of the sea bed, but that should not be overly restrictive, and I agree that we do not want people to have a blanket idea that all scallop dredging is terrible if we want people to be able to afford scallops, and the industry to be maintained. My hon. Friend made the fantastic point that the issue is not just about conserving fish; it is about conserving our fishing communities, which are so vital in all coastal areas.
In closing, I pay tribute to Brixham coastguard, which is due to close, to its work on behalf of communities, and to all those whom they have helped to keep safe at sea.
Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)
This has been a fascinating debate, and I have little to add, particularly after my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous) presented such a comprehensive set of issues that the under-10-metre fleet in particular must address. I would like to make two points. They have been made before, but I want to assert them on behalf of Ramsgate fishermen, and on behalf of my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd), who unfortunately is not well today. We have similar and common issues.
First, Hastings and Ramsgate have put a proposal to the Minister for a non-sector sustainable fisheries pilot to include technical measures, effort control and a no-discard policy, reflecting the need for regional management and smaller fishermen’s concerns about the centralised, inaccurate and sometimes prescriptive quota system.
The second issue that we are concerned about, particularly in Ramsgate—it is welcome in many ways—is the offer by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to set up an under-10s producer organisation. That is an important initiative to take forward. However, DEFRA must realise that the under-10s do not have the same organisational capacity, and it will be challenging for them to set up a sophisticated business organisation.
Without reducing the enthusiasm that under-10 fishermen have for the concept, DEFRA should put in place some business management support to put together the concept, and some support for the individuals who take on the leadership role, not as a professional job, unlike producer organisations today, but as part of running a small business. They take time out of that work, and I would like some support to ensure that the Minister’s vision and our enthusiasm for it becomes reality.
My last point, which hon. Members today have made, is that it is crucial that we bottom this out. Meetings that I have attended in Brussels reveal that Britain need not be so diffident about owning quota. The quota is owned by this country, not the people who have assumed rights and purchase.
Sheryll Murray
Does my hon. Friend agree that that quota was provided to British fishermen free of charge, and that only the buying and selling of quota and the introduction of fixed quota allocation units has led us to the disastrous situation for the under-10-metre fleet?
Laura Sandys
I thank my hon. Friend who, as we all know, has huge experience in this area. I totally agree with her. We must rectify the situation. I have asked questions about this at meetings in Brussels, and was told that other countries do not have the same regime, and that the state owns the quota and distributes it to those who fish and those who are in the trade. I urge the Minister to use the precedent internationally and throughout Europe to ensure that he is successful in regaining control over that quota, and that it is used by those whose livelihoods depend on fishing.
Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab)
I welcome you to the Chair, Mr Brady. I did a double take when I saw you there. You look very different from at the start of the debate. I congratulate my hon. Friends the Members for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) and for South Down (Ms Ritchie) on securing this debate. I add my voice to those who complained that this debate is not taking place on the Floor of the House, although the quality of debate today has been no less than in years gone by. I thank all hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber who have spoken eloquently and are well informed about the fishing communities they represent.
I take this opportunity to echo the words of hon. Members who paid tribute to the bravery of our fishermen and those who lost their lives in an incredibly difficult and dangerous line of work. The men and women who work out at sea and in our ports take huge risks, and too many of them and their families pay the ultimate price.
There is clear cross-party consensus that radical reform of the common fisheries policy is needed, and I take this opportunity to commend the Minister on his attempts this year and before that to take forward proposals that will be of great advantage to the industry and our marine environment. On this issue, he is—although I am reluctant to admit it—doing a difficult job well, and he has the support of the Opposition in his continued efforts to secure real reform. The Labour Government fought for fisheries reform in Europe, and we were committed to a radical reform programme in our last manifesto. For the absence of doubt, that is the one that was so enthusiastically endorsed by the electorate.
A collaborative approach to fisheries management will be particularly important in ongoing efforts to eliminate discards. Discarding is a symptom of the poor management and practice of the current common fisheries policy. It is wasteful, undermines the sustainability of fish stocks, distorts scientific evidence, and deeply affects and frustrates our fishermen. Throwing good fish back into the sea is simply squandering a valuable natural resource, and is nothing short of immoral. In some fisheries, up to 60% of catches are discarded. Clearly, that cannot be allowed to continue.
Catch quota trials were introduced in 2011 to reduce discards of North sea cod. Cod in the North sea is recovering, but not as fast as prescribed in the EU cod management plan, so a 20% cut in total allowable catch is likely to be implemented under provisions in the management plan. The Opposition believe that such a cut would be counter-productive. Any reduction in total allowable catch for one species such as cod in a mixed fishery such as the North sea is likely to increase discards. However, any support for the status quo must be matched by increased commitments to selective fishing practices so that cod mortality continues to decrease to meet the plan’s target.
Much has been said about common fisheries policy reform. I know that time is short, so I will move on quickly to discuss a couple of issues related indirectly to the CFP. The continued overfishing of north-eastern Atlantic mackerel is another issue that must be resolved. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) for her comments on the issue. The Opposition call on the UK and Scottish Governments to continue to defend the fishing rights of UK fleets.
Labour supports the EU’s plans to ban imports of mackerel and other fish from Iceland and the Faroe Islands. The western mackerel fishery has traditionally been one of the most sustainable and well-managed fisheries in Europe, and the refusal of those island nations to take part in any sensible negotiations cannot be tolerated. Unfortunately, sanctions cannot be ruled out. I do not want to disappoint my hon. Friend the Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell), who is no longer in his seat, but he will always be assured a warm welcome in Scotland, despite his earlier comments. Although sanctions cannot be ruled out, we must rely on them only as a last resort that might not be avoidable.
We also want a rebalancing of the UK’s fishing quota system, to which a number of Members referred, particularly the hon. Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous). We believe that a radical overhaul of how fishing quotas are allocated within the UK is needed.
Mr MacNeil
Given the talk of sanctions against Iceland and the Faroe Islands, has any assessment been made of the price of fish to the householder if fish from those countries is excluded from the UK market?
Mr Harris
That is a perfectly valid concern. I am sure that the Government and the fisheries producer organisations have made those calculations, although I do not have access to that information. It must be considered if we are to go down that road, and I am sure that we all hope that that solution—if it is a solution—can be avoided.
Smaller inland fishing vessels make up three quarters of the UK’s fishing fleet and employ nearly two thirds of all full-time workers, but they are restricted from catching more than 4% of the UK fishing quota.
Sheryll Murray
Does the hon. Gentleman accept that it was his party’s introduction of fixed quota allocations and lack of action to address the situation that has created the difficult problem that the Minister is now trying to address?
Mr Harris
The hon. Lady has made numerous interventions in this debate, and her contributions are welcome. I suggest that she has perhaps misjudged the nature of these debates. They are generally not used to score party political points. I will not follow her down that particular road.
Labour is committed to reforms that will tackle vested interests and reward those who fish more sustainably and selectively, with less impact on the environment. I have commended the fishing industry as a whole on advancements being made, but it is unacceptable that fleets representing the smaller, sustainable end of the industry should have to survive on just 4% of the UK fishing quota. That view was supported, I am glad to say, in the sixth report of the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, which recommended a one-off reallocation alongside moves to reallocate quota in-year.
To his credit, the Minister has attempted to reallocate a portion of the constantly underutilised quota, albeit a very small portion, to the under-10s. It is regrettable that the producer organisations have decided to take that decision to judicial review. If the Government’s decision is overturned, does the Minister agree that a vital national resource will be redefined as no more than a commodity, effectively privatising the seas and the fish stocks within it, and will he consider primary legislation to reverse that judgment if it comes? I accept that given the ongoing legal case, he might not want to comment explicitly on those matters, but it is useful to alert him that they will demand answers in the near future.
There is a fear that, as in other countries where a rights-based system has been introduced, the quota will end up in fewer and fewer hands. Our fisheries are a national resource, not a private one; it is the Government’s job to ensure they remain that way. From my previous job as railways Minister, I think that there is an analogy to be made with rail franchises. Rail franchises are given to private companies for a period of time, at the end of which an open competition is held, sometimes successfully and sometimes not, to allow those franchises to be exploited by different private companies. However, during the whole of the franchise, the resource—passenger income—is the property of the Government.
With that in mind, can I press the Minister on when the Government will publish an up-to-date list of who currently owns the quota—essentially, the right to fish—in the UK? I fully accept that that comes under the headline “stuff Labour should have done when we were in government”, but that does not let the current Government off the hook, so to speak. The country has the right to know how much quota is owned and exploited by working fishermen and how much, if any, is owned by non-fishing interests.
Finally, another area of debate that needs to be addressed is subsidies and the European maritime and fisheries fund. The EMFF is a funding instrument intended to support the objectives of the reformed CFP from 2014 to 2020. In the past, several member states have benefited from EU financial assistance for the fishing sector without properly implementing and enforcing CFP rules. For example, a number of member states did not fulfil their reporting obligations under the data collection framework regulation, yet they continued to benefit from funding. Surely it is unacceptable that operators who engage in serious infringements can continue to benefit from EU financial assistance.
Does the Minister believe that access to EU funding under the EMFF should be conditional on compliance with and delivery of the reformed CFP and other EU marine legislation? I ask because the general approach outlined by the Council of Fisheries Ministers, on which he sits, overruled the EU Commission’s proposal to introduce clear language in article 12 to ensure that EU financial assistance is not permissible for operators who do not comply with the rules. If he agrees with my previous question, what steps is he taking to redress the change? Surely he does not believe that funding should still be available to operators who flout the CFP’s basic rules. If so, then why did he sign off on it?
That said, I share a lot of common ground with the Minister on the vast range of issues that we have heard today. Fishing is not a party political football, and I do not think that most in the House intend to treat it so. If he cannot answer all the questions raised by me and other hon. Members, I am sure that he will write to us with full answers.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
I am grateful to the hon. Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris) for his words of support for our general direction, and I accept the challenge put to me by him and others to justify our approach to the many issues covered by hon. Members during this debate. I will try to address as many of them as I can, but I start by commending the hon. Members for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) and for South Down (Ms Ritchie)—I look forward to hearing from the latter in a moment—on securing the debate. The attendance makes a good case for holding it in the main Chamber. We have had a lively debate, full of interesting and useful points.
I start, as numerous hon. Members have, by remembering the seven fishermen who have lost their lives this year while working at sea and in harbour. We must all remember the courage and sacrifice of fishermen, who put their lives in danger to provide us with the food we need. I know that the House will join me in remembering the bravery of our fishermen and the incredibly difficult and dangerous work that they do. I commend the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) on making the point about the fishermen in her constituency who acted so courageously.
Before I address some of the points that have been raised, in the short time that I have, I want to set the context of where we are with the common fisheries policy and the December round. I am encouraged that we secured agreement on key areas through the general approach agreed at the Council of Fisheries Ministers in June this year. This time last year in the fisheries debate, I did not share the optimism that that could be achieved, but I am very glad that we did achieve it.
Those key areas include ambitious deadlines to eliminate discards, with provisions that will secure a workable result and a sustainable solution for the fishing industry. The commitment to implement a landing obligation, with a provisional timetable, is a major step in the right direction. The UK has been leading the way in Europe, trialling schemes that tackle discards through managing fisheries based on what is caught, not what is landed. Pilots of fully documented fisheries have been very effective in reducing discards. Following the success of the pilots to date, the UK is seeking to continue the North sea cod scheme and the schemes in the western waters, and we wish to develop new schemes for plaice, haddock and saithe in the North sea. That will help us prepare for obligations to land all catches under a reformed common fisheries policy.
The general approach is also an important first step on the way to decentralising decision making and the current complex regulations. I look forward to giving more details of that as I address some of the points that have been raised, but the UK has taken a lead role in advocating regionalisation. We have been working with other member states, the European Parliament and the European Commission to build support for workable solutions. It is clear that proposals must enable nations fishing in the same sea area, often for the same fish, to come together and agree how best to manage their fisheries without the type of micro-management from Brussels that has been so roundly condemned today. We will continue to make the case for fundamental reform as discussions take place in the European Parliament next year.
It is with those longer-term goals in mind that I will go into discussions at the December Council, where fishing opportunities for 2013 will be decided. I will negotiate for a fair and balanced package of fishing opportunities. Fundamentally, I want quotas set on scientific evidence to ensure that we can achieve sustainable levels of fishing by 2015 where possible, while ensuring that discards are reduced.
At this point, I want to comment on cod. A recent report in a Sunday newspaper, which should have known better, said that there were only 100 adult cod left in the North sea. At some point later, they had the grace to print a correction, but the correct figure, as scientists in the Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science and officials in my Department had been trying to explain to the journalist over the previous week, is 21 million adult cod in the North sea. It was a misrepresentation, and a failure in accuracy of reporting by a factor of 20,999,900, which must go down somewhere in the record books. One million tonnes of cod will be caught this year in the Barents sea and off north Norway. Cod is not a rare animal, but we have an important job to do to get it back to the levels that I know we can through proper management, and I will come on to the failures of the cod recovery plan later.
The UK, as a priority, will be seeking a way to ensure that days at sea remain at 2012 levels into 2013. We see that as vital to the recovery of cod stocks and to maintaining the viability of the UK fishing fleet. Those are two similar priorities for us. Everyone agrees that further cuts in days at sea cannot be justified, and they are being contemplated only as a result of the flawed cod recovery plan. Parallel to that is the Commission’s proposal for a 20% cut in North sea cod total allowable catch, even though the stock is growing and that cut would only lead to increased discards. The UK will be arguing strongly against both those cuts.
As we speak, the annual negotiations between the EU and Norway are ongoing in Bergen. They are always of vital importance to the UK, with jointly managed stocks such as North sea cod, whiting and haddock making up around 50% of the UK’s catch by value. It is therefore very important that we secure a good outcome from this year’s negotiation.
I share hon. Members’ concerns about the continued lack of agreement on the management of the north-east Atlantic mackerel stock, which is the UK’s most important single fishery by value, worth around £200 million a year to the UK economy. The continued behaviour of the Faroe Islands and Iceland in fishing far in excess of their historical catch levels seriously risks the future sustainability of the fishery. It is essential that we reach a sharing arrangement quickly but that we do not agree to a deal at any costs. I am pleased that the EU sanctions regulation has now been published, as it provides the EU with much-needed powers to take action against countries threatening the health of our fish stocks.
I turn to some points that hon. Members have raised in this excellent debate. The hon. Member for Aberdeen North made the point that fish stocks are generally rising, and we need to show our appreciation for the efforts of fishermen who are taking initiatives with the support of Governments in the UK to ensure that the systems they use to catch fish are sustainable.
The hon. Gentleman raised a serious concern that we, too, have about institutional arguments in Brussels, and the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan also made that point. I agree with the Scottish Fishermen’s Federation and the National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations that we do not want cod, the cod recovery plan, or fishing stocks in UK waters to be used as a totemic issue in a struggle between EU institutions. They are too important for that. We are talking about the sustainability of a stock that we want to recover, and about the livelihoods of fishermen and those onshore who support them. I can assure the hon. Member for Aberdeen North that I am standing side by side with Norway, and I met the Norwegian Minister yesterday on the issue of mackerel. I also recognise the point that the hon. Gentleman made—as other hon. Members did, including my hon. Friends the Members for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh) and for South Thanet (Laura Sandys) and the hon. Members for Hartlepool (Mr Wright) and for Glasgow South—about who owns quota. Who has fishing opportunity is a much better way of putting it, because I entirely agree with the points that were made that our fishing opportunity is a national resource. I assure hon. Members that we will be working extremely hard through next year and will deliver—I hope by this time next year—the details that people want to know about who has access to that national resource.
I appreciate the points raised by the hon. Member for Aberdeen North about safety, which is a major concern. In addition to the tragic deaths that we have recognised, there are still too many injuries on fishing vessels. I also understand the points that he made about migrant labour. I do not have time to go into that now, but I am keen to take it up with him.
I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton—and Filey—for what she said. Yes, we can get bedevilled by process, but we must keep our eye on what we are trying to achieve. I, too, welcome the fact that shellfish stocks around the UK have recently been given a thumbs-up by science and are in a healthy condition. I hope that more fishermen in her constituency and elsewhere are able to exploit that valuable stock and help our balance of payments, as well as our national diet.
The question of regionalisation was raised not only by my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton but by my hon. Friends the Members for Brecon and Radnorshire (Roger Williams), for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray), for Waveney (Peter Aldous) and for St Ives (Andrew George) and the hon. Member for Great Grimsby (Austin Mitchell), among others. Whether or not we are in the CFP—there has been some discussion about that—I strongly believe that we will always have to work with other countries on the management of our seas. We have to manage our oceans on an ecosystem basis, which means discussing them with all the countries that fish that sea basin. If we do not, we risk seeing stocks crash, because countries will exploit—within their 200-mile limit, their 12-mile limit, or wherever it is—a fish that may be there for a certain time in the life cycle but spawns elsewhere. That is why regionalisation is so important.
Richard Benyon
I apologise to the hon. Gentleman, but I have a lot to get through. If I have time towards the end, I will give way.
Regionalisation should not mean a shift in power to the Commission, which was where we were before June. If all members in the sea basin area had not agreed, the Commission would have had greater powers to impose technical measures and I would still be sitting at 4 o’clock in the morning talking to an EU official about where an eliminator panel should sit in a net going out of Peterhead. That would be lunacy. We managed to change that to ensure that there will be co-decision if disagreement exists. I hope that when there is agreement, we can move forward and fishermen and local fisheries management will be at the heart of decision making.
I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) for raising the issue of nephrops. I can confirm that at least a roll-over for nephrops in the Irish sea will be an important priority for us, and we will argue on the basis of sustainability.
My hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall talks so much sense about fishing. I say to her and to my hon. Friend the Member for St Ives, who also talks sense, that the MMO has taken no decision on mackerel handline. That matter will be resolved after the December Council, but I can assure hon. Members that I understand the importance of that to the south-west fishery.
A lot of discussion has taken place about MPAs. Without the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009, we would meet our 2016 target of having 25% of our inshore waters in properly managed marine protected areas, but as we roll out marine conservation zones under the Act, which will be thoughtful and ecologically coherent, Ministers will be able to consider the socio-economic factors of the impact that they will have. I know that that is of concern to the hon. Member for Great Grimsby, my hon. Friends the Members for Hendon (Dr Offord) and for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) and others.
The hon. Member for Hartlepool made a good speech. I pass on my congratulations to his father on his birthday. The hon. Gentleman spoke about under-10 metre vessels, which are very important. Domestically, addressing the challenges facing the English under-10 metre fleet remains a key priority. Delivering effective change will not be easy, and there are some really difficult decisions. Hon. Members have alluded to disputes that may or may not exist and may or may not be resolved outside the courts. However, I assure the hon. Member for Hartlepool and others that my concern for the under-10 metre sector remains. I know that in some cases that fleet is hanging on by its fingernails. I have secured some extra quota for it, and we have the pilot in Ramsgate—I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet for her efforts to secure that. There are seven vessels in it. That is not as many as I would have hoped, and there are a variety of reasons why we did not get more. However, I want to learn from that pilot and ensure that we provide support.
Through the CFP reform, we need to address a number of different things. The hon. Member for Hartlepool raised the issue of multi-annual plans, which I believe are very important. My hon. Friend the Member for Hendon said that he wanted to take politicians out of fisheries management. We will never quite do that, but I am entirely behind him, and multi-annual plans are one way of doing that. The absurd charade that I have to go through every December is an act of politics. Some Ministers use it as a form of patronage. Multi-annual plans based on pure science are in the interests of fishermen and the marine environment. They are a much better way to make progress. They take power away from the malign activities of some politicians. I can assure hon. Members that we argue our case on the basis of science and sustainability. That long-term view is right for the fishing industry.
My hon. Friend the Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw), the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan and my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney made very powerful speeches. I assure them that I want to see under-10 metre vessels empowered by an organisation. We are supporting them as best we can to ensure that a producer organisation, which is the right way forward, does go ahead.
I want to address quickly my hon. Friend the Member for Meon Valley (George Hollingbery) and say how much I regret that I cannot attend his conference on Monday. I want to get across, with all the vehemence at my disposal, the point that the draft Water Bill has a purpose, but what was in the water White Paper sets out clearly where we can get to. Legislation is not always the best way of delivering things, although we will need legislation to deal with over-abstraction, as there are 22,000 abstraction licences. I am quite optimistic about chalk streams. I think that we can get to where we need to be. I hope that the meeting on Monday is not channelled into a view that one piece of legislation is all that is needed to solve all our problems. We are dealing with over-abstraction now. We are implementing the water White Paper and we can, over the next few years, resolve many of the issues that he raises.
I have run out of time. Many other valid points were made by hon. Members who mind passionately about this issue, whether they come, like me, from a place that is about as far from the sea as it is possible to get in this country or whether they represent coastal communities. I can assure them that the value of this debate was in enabling these issues to be raised and in enabling me to say that my door is always open for these issues to be raised on behalf of them and their constituents. We will get the best deal that we can in December, based on a desire to see sustainable fisheries in the future.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
I am pleased to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Brady. I am also delighted that the Minister is present, along with my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South (Mr Harris), the shadow Minister for fisheries.
I am delighted to have helped to secure the debate, along with my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran). We can see just how important it was, following the very powerful and compelling arguments that have been made today. It was an excellent debate. A wide range of issues was raised, including regionalisation and nephrops. I welcome the fact that the Minister will exert his good influence at the negotiations to ensure that it is possible to get a roll-over for nephrops in the Irish sea. We raised the issues of the cod recovery plan, the exploitation of migrants, the quota holders, and health and safety—that is one of the most important things. It is important that we pay tribute to the bravery and courage of our fishermen, because there is a great element of risk in that profession and often the ordinary men and women on the street do not necessarily recognise that when they order fish in a restaurant or cook it in their kitchen. They do not think of the work and effort that have been invested and the risk that has been involved in providing the product that they buy in the supermarkets.
We have talked about the economics of the industry and the argument in relation to science and sustainability. We all believe that there need to be sustainable fisheries. There is the issue of discards. We talked about the very blunt instrument that the common fisheries policy is—how it is a top-down approach and we are looking for regionalisation and a bottom-up approach. As a Member of Parliament representing two fishing ports, Ardglass and Kilkeel, whose fishermen fish in the Irish sea, I believe that it is important that local people are part of the advisory council, along with those from the Republic of Ireland and the west of Scotland, who also fish in the Irish sea, because that local knowledge can bring considerable influence to bear on the future shape and management of that fishery. I would like to think that greater influence would be brought to bear at the level of the European Council of Ministers to ensure that there was understanding of the value and benefit of that.
Mr MacNeil
The hon. Lady mentions the EU’s top-down approach to fisheries management. It takes no account—or never seems to take account—of the different types of fish, whether they be migratory fish, non-migratory fish or straddling stocks. It takes the same approach to each type of fish, which is probably part of the nub of the problem with the common fisheries policy. The fact that we have these types of fish is why we can have real-time closures for some areas and for particular species, but not for all species.
Ms Ritchie
I thank the hon. Member for Na h-Eileanan an Iar (Mr MacNeil), the Western Isles, for his intervention. [Interruption.] He is correcting my interpretation of his Gaelic, although I suppose I would be speaking in Gaeilge—in Irish.
There was reference to the misuse of mackerel by the Icelandic and Faroese, maximum sustainable yield, MPAs, TACs and quotas, and the need for a bottom-up approach.
The hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw) mentioned renewables and wind energy in the Irish sea. There will be even more wind turbines in the Irish sea, if DONG Energy, Centrica and First Flight Wind get their way. I hope that they bring a lot of sustainability. It is interesting that the fishing industry involved in the Anglo-North Irish Fish Producers’ Organisation in Kilkeel is directly concerned in safeguarding those renewable operations and will gain financial assistance for the fishing industry from them. I see that as a benefit, but I also recognise that the cabling in the Irish sea, along with the MPAs, could interfere with fishing effort. I ask the Minister to take cognisance of that.
The abolition of the CFP was raised. My hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South indicated that fishing should not become a party political football. I was a little afraid that Euroscepticism was getting in the way of what the fishing industry needs. I hope that we get a properly reformed CFP that reflects the needs of the fishing industry throughout the UK and ensures not only a sustainable fishery, but one that brings benefit offshore and onshore and becomes profitable for all involved, whether fish producer, fisherman, those who are part of a fish producers’ organisation or those involved in fish processing.
I welcome the Minister’s intention to negotiate for a roll-over in the nephrops quota, but there is the whole other issue of the long-term plan for cod. The Scientific, Technical and Economic Committee for Fisheries has acknowledged that the current plan is not working and that stakeholder and industry engagement is essential if a long-term solution is to be found. Obviously, the cod recovery plan has not worked and is not working, and something needs to be done. There is a view among local fishermen and fish producers’ organisations in Northern Ireland that to continue with a freeze on effort might not be a good idea, and it is important to look at that. Regionalisation in the CFP also needs to be explored.
I thank all who have contributed to the debate. We have sent a clear message to the Minister that we wish him well in his negotiations. Whether on the responsible reform of discards, developing a sustainable and economically viable quota system or dealing with regionalisation and the blunt instrument of the CFP, all of the 19 Members who contributed, as well as those who intervened, have spoken with a largely coherent voice, in a non-partisan way, which reflects the many shared interests in this area. We share many concerns. The Minister will have heard the clear interests of those in the devolved regions and, I hope, my argument that greater regionalisation is needed to sculpt a CFP sensitive to the specific concerns of fishermen who operate in the different waters throughout and around these islands.
I wish the Minister well in his negotiations, whether on CFP reform or TAC and the whole area of allocating and fixing quotas. We must remember not only the bands of fishermen and fish producers’ organisations, but those inshore, who sometimes feel that they do not always benefit from the producer organisations, because they are a small group. We must not forget that fishing should provide a sustainable future for our land and marine environment and all those who eke their living from it.
Richard Benyon
Before the hon. Lady concludes, as we have a couple of minutes left, may I make a point about marine protected areas? Under the two European designations, 23% of our inshore waters are protected under MPAs. I said that I thought that about 25% could be achieved by 2016, which is the date we want. We are not concerned with simply creating lines on maps or doing a numbers job. We want something meaningful.
Many hon. Members raised concerns about the impact of MPAs. We want the management to reflect the science on why the areas need protecting, which means that some activities will be prevented, but others, further up the water column or wherever, will be allowed. It is important. It is a complex area that is causing grave concern. I hope that we can develop ecological coherence around the UK; it was the thread that ran through the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009 in England and Wales. I hope that we can work together to achieve that.
Ms Ritchie
I thank the Minister for his helpful intervention. As he said, it is important that the needs and requirements of all those involved are reflected when the MPAs are drawn up, notwithstanding the difficulties, such as the wind energy proposals and the considerable cabling in, for example, the Irish sea. There are probably other proposals. I recall a meeting with the Minister 14 months ago, where the chief executive of the ANIFPO had a detailed, layered map to show the amount of activity in the Irish sea that could contribute to a reduction in fishing effort. The MPAs therefore need the best management.
In wishing the Minister well in his negotiations, we must not forget what other Members said about health and safety and the influence of the coast guard in safeguarding fishermen and marine and coastal communities. This was a general debate about fisheries, so some Members mentioned inland fisheries, angling and abstraction. With the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Miss McIntosh), Chair of the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, we are looking at the draft Water Bill. Yesterday, we looked—without prejudice, I should say—at the outcome of the report into it and the details on abstraction, about which we have talked to various Ministers. Decommissioning was also mentioned, but I thought that we had moved on from that, because it is about taking boats out of the fishing industry, which can be detrimental to financial outcomes.
In conclusion, I thank you, Mr Brady and all Members who contributed. I also thank the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow South, and the Minister. I wish everybody well. We thank the fishing communities for their forbearance and endurance. I wish them well in the future, as we try to sculpt a common fisheries policy that reflects the needs of local fishing communities, without the top-down approach that has proved unworkable to date.
Question put and agreed to.
Written Ministerial Statements
Further Education Reforms
(12 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills (Matthew Hancock)
The Government are today publishing the skills funding statement 2012-15 and the FE college capital investment strategy. I will e-mail all hon. Members and a copy of each will be placed in the Library of the House.
Since May 2010, the Government have made available over £330 million of new FE capital investment enabling college projects totalling over £1 billion. We have now allocated a total of £550 million for additional capital investment in the FE college estate in 2013-14 and 2014-15. £270 million of this represents new money announced in the autumn statement, over and above the spending review settlement for FE.
The FE college capital investment strategy sets out the Government’s priorities for capital funding over the remainder of this Parliament and sets the direction of travel for future years. The strategy also includes an outline delivery plan and new capital programmes which the Skills Funding Agency will develop with input from sector representatives and launch on its website before Christmas.
This year’s skills funding statement reaffirms our commitment to creating an FE system which secures the skills we need for everyone in Britain to succeed. We have delivered significantly increased flexibilities for colleges and FE providers; removed planning controls, enabling providers to be more responsive to their communities, achieved better value for money and delivered more with less. With tight budgets across the FE sector, these freedoms and flexibilities are now more important than ever.
This funding statement sets out how we will enable the sector to build upon these achievements in the years ahead:
Overall funding for adult FE and skills will be £4.1 billion in the 2013-14 financial year with £3.6 billion of this being routed through the Skills Funding Agency to support capacity for over three million learners.
We are prioritising Government funding on English and maths which are essential to enable people to function in society, progress into vocational learning and employment and to contribute more effectively at work. Funding will also be focused on young adults and the unemployed where skills training will help them to enter sustainable employment.
We welcome the Richard review and its emphasis on quality, high standards and rigour in apprenticeships in order to raise their status, value and impact. A consultation on the review will take place in the spring but any initial views or comments on the review are welcomed.
We are giving local enterprise partnerships a new strategic role over skills policy in line with the recommendations of the Heseltine review, to work closely with colleges and providers.
Employers play a crucial role in identifying and supporting the skills that we need for growth. Across the country, colleges are innovating and collaborating to build skills for growth. We want to encourage employer-led bodies to take the lead in designing the qualifications employers need, and ensuring that vocational qualifications are rigorous and valuable.
The skills funding statement and FE capital investment strategy set out in more detail how these priorities will be delivered.
EU Foreign Affairs Council
The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David Willetts)
My noble Friend, the Minister of State for Trade and Investment (joint with Foreign and Commonwealth Office), Lord Green, has today made the following statement:
The EU Foreign Affairs Council (Trade) took place in Brussels on 29 November 2012.
I represented the UK on all the issues discussed at the meeting. A summary of those discussions follows.
Two legislative items were discussed: the Commission’s two trade omnibus proposals which bring common commercial (trade) policy regulation into line with post-Lisbon decision-making arrangements, and the proposal relating to financial responsibility for investor-state disputes arising from EU investment protection treaties with third countries
Member states noted that omnibus I has an agreed Council position and will now go to trilogue negotiations, while omnibus II is still being discussed in working group. The Commission urged member states to seek agreement on both by the end of the Irish presidency.
Member states broadly agreed with the general principle of the Commission’s proposal on investor-state disputes. I intervened to say that the Commission should only assume a role in any legal defence where strictly necessary. I also called for greater transparency in deciding who should bear any financial responsibility. The issue will continue to be discussed in working group.
There followed four substantive “non-legislative” items each relating to bilateral trade negotiations:
The launch of formal negotiations between the EU and Japan on an economic partnership agreement (a free trade agreement in all but name).
Negotiation of the EU-Canada comprehensive economic and trade agreement (another FTA).
State of play on the EU/Singapore FTA.
Potential EU-southern Mediterranean trade negotiations.
The EU-Japan negotiating mandate was agreed after some discussion and negotiations should begin in the new year.
On the EU-Canada free trade agreement, there was a discussion on the state of play in the negotiations. Outstanding issues include agriculture, investment and intellectual property. Negotiations are continuing and the Commission noted that there is commitment on both sides to conclude an agreement as soon as possible.
There was also a discussion on the state of play in the negotiations on the EU-Singapore free trade agreement. Progress has been made on outstanding issues and there was broad support from member states for an agreement to be concluded rapidly.
Member states welcomed progress towards opening negotiations with southern Mediterranean countries and, in particular, the decision of the Trade Policy Committee to launch negotiations with Morocco. The Commission noted that scoping discussions were underway with Tunisia, with the aim of launching negotiations in 2013.
Under AOB, the Commission was asked by some member states to reconsider the decision not to extend prior surveillance for steel imports when the current system expires at the end of 2012. The Commission was reluctant, arguing that the evidence did not support an extension. I intervened to support the Commission.
The EU’s trade relationships with Russia and China were discussed over lunch.
Planning Administration
The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Eric Pickles)
Today, to assist parliamentary scrutiny, my Department has published details on European Union proposals which will affect the planning system across the United Kingdom.
I have deposited in Parliament an explanatory memorandum on European Union legislation on proposals to amend directive 2011/92/EU on environmental impact assessments. A copy of the memorandum has been placed in the Library of the House.
Environmental impact assessments are a European Union requirement which impose significant costs on the planning system, over and above long-standing, domestic environmental safeguards in planning law.
It has become apparent that some local planning authorities require detailed assessment of all environmental issues irrespective of whether EU directives actually require it; similarly, some developers do more than is actually necessary to avoid the possibility of more costly legal challenges which add delays and cost to the application process. Consequently, my Department will be consulting in 2013 on the application of thresholds for development going through the planning system in England, below which the environmental impact assessment regime does not apply. This will aim to remove unnecessary provisions from our regulations, and to help provide greater clarity and certainty on what EU law does and does not require.
There are an increasing number of directives which have implications for land use planning. In addition to the environmental impact assessment directive other EU legislation which impacts (or may shortly impact) on the planning system includes the strategic environmental assessment directive, flooding directive, habitats directive, wild birds directive, waste framework directive, revised waste framework directive, Seveso II directive, public participation directive, renewable energy directive, energy performance of buildings directive, environmental noise directive, draft airport noise regulation, energy efficiency directive, draft regulation on trans-European energy infrastructure, water framework directive, air quality directive and the draft soil framework directive.
The European Union does not have competence on land use planning, although it does have competence in relation to the environment but as is evident from that list, increasingly, its regulatory creep is imposing additional and expensive requirements on the planning system. Indeed, as outlined in the written ministerial statement of 25 July 2012, Official Report, House of Lords, column WS66-68, rulings from the European Court of Justice on the strategic environmental assessment directive have added significant delay and complexity for the UK Parliament to move ahead with the proposed abolition of the last Government’s regional spatial strategies.
The European Commission has announced that it is seeking to amend the environmental impact assessment directive. The explanatory memorandum outlines that the proposals could result in a significant increase in regulation, add additional cost and delay to the planning system, and undermine existing permitted development rights. In addition, the proposal appears inconsistent with the conclusion of the October European Council that it is particularly important to reduce the overall regulatory burden at EU and national levels, with a specific focus on small and medium firms and micro-enterprises. This view was unanimous among all EU Heads of Government, who also agreed with the Commission’s commitment to exempt micro-enterprises from EU legislation.
Draft European Union legislation often receives little parliamentary or public scrutiny. I would encourage hon. Members to examine carefully this latest proposed increase in EU regulation.
Armed Forces Covenant Annual Report
(12 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Hammond)
The armed forces covenant is the expression of the moral obligation the Government and the nation owe to the armed forces community—those who serve, whether regular or reserve, their families; and veterans and their families. The Armed Forces Act 2011 enshrines the principles of the covenant in law, and places an obligation on the Defence Secretary to report to Parliament each year on the effects of membership of the armed forces on serving personnel, veterans and their families.
The Government are today publishing the first annual report to be produced under this legislation. The report addresses seven specific groups within the armed forces community, recording what we have done since the last report in 2011 and what we plan to do. It covers the full scope of the covenant, including the fields of health care, education, housing and the operation of inquests.
In the report, I have considered the two key principles: that those who serve in the armed forces, whether regular or reserve, those who have served in the past, and their families, should face no disadvantage compared to other citizens in the provision of public and commercial services as a consequence of that service; and that special consideration is appropriate in some cases, especially for those who have given the most, such as the injured and bereaved. Since the coalition Government came to office in 2010, we have:
Doubled the operational allowance for service personnel who deploy on operations overseas, such as in Afghanistan.
Launched the community covenant, supported by a £30 million community covenant grant scheme.
Implemented a range of improvements in mental health care, including an additional 50 mental health professionals conducting outreach work with veterans in England, a 24-hour helpline and a support and advice website.
Specifically over the last 12 months, we have:
Doubled council tax relief again, for those serving on operations overseas, to around £600 for an average six-month tour.
Altered the schools admissions code to allow all schools in England to allocate a place in advance of a service family arriving in the area, and to enable infant schools in England to admit service children over the class size of 30.
Opened the £17 million Jubilee rehabilitation complex at the Headley Court defence rehabilitation centre and announced the investment of a further £5 million to refurbish wards and accommodation.
Launched a new defence discount service, which for the first time offers a privilege card entitling members of the armed forces community to a range of discounts on goods and services.
Transferred £35 million from fines levied on the banks for attempting to manipulate the LIBOR interest rate to the Ministry of Defence for use in supporting the armed forces community, mainly through service charities.
Looking forward to the year ahead, this Government will among other things:
Increase the service pupil premium to £300 from April 2013, and extend its scope to children of service personnel who have died in service;
Fully disregard war pension or other guaranteed income payments through the armed forces compensation scheme in calculating entitlement to universal credit, when it is launched in 2013; and
Invest a further £131 million to purchase new service family accommodation to become available for use in 2013.
The report has been compiled in consultation with the covenant reference group, which brings together representatives from Government Departments; the devolved Governments in Scotland and Wales; and from external members, including the three families federations, the Confederation of Service Charities, the Royal British Legion, the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families’ Association, the War Widows’ Association and Professor Hew Strachan.
Observations on the annual report by the external members of the covenant reference group are published as part of the report itself. Their observations are broadly supportive, but highlight a number of areas where work remains to be done. The Government will take careful note of these and will work to address them during the period leading to the next annual report. We are very grateful to the external members for their continued involvement and assistance.
MOD Annual Report and Accounts
(12 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Hammond)
I am today publishing the Ministry of Defence’s annual report and accounts 2011-12. It provides a comprehensive overview of the Department’s financial performance for the year, together with data on some specific areas of non-financial performance, including factual information on the Department’s progress against structural reform and business plan priorities. This year we have laid the annual report and accounts later than planned and we expect to lay next year’s annual report and accounts before the summer recess. Copies will be available online from the MOD’s website at:
www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceFor/Researchers/
Ash Tree Dieback
(12 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson)
Further to my statement on 9 November 2012, Official Report, column 48WS, I am today setting out plans for the next few months to control Chalara and also publishing the interim report by the independent taskforce on tree health and plant biosecurity. The taskforce’s initial recommendations lay the groundwork for a radical reappraisal of what we can do to protect the UK from threats to plant and tree health.
The discovery of ash dieback caused by Chalara fraxinea in the UK earlier this year highlighted the importance of plant and tree health to our economy and environment. As well as providing direct employment in the forestry, horticulture and nursery sectors, our woods and forests provide valuable raw materials for many other uses, from wood fuel to construction and furniture-making. The value of woods and forests however goes beyond the economic. They provide habitats for a range of valuable habitats for our wildlife and places that are loved by communities for their beauty and the recreational opportunities. Individual trees on streets and in gardens enhance the local environment and people’s quality of life. Ash is the majority tree species in about 129,000 hectares of woodland out of Britain’s 3 million hectares of woodland. It represents just over 13% of all broadleaf cover in the UK.
Interim Control Plan for Chalara
This summarises the progress we have made in delivering the initial actions we set out on 9 November and outlines what further action we will take over the next few months. The scientific advice is that we will not be able to eradicate Chalara. Our objectives and actions for controlling the disease are therefore:
Objective 1—reducing the rate of spread
Maintain the ban on import and movement of ash trees;
Explore options for a targeted approach to management of infected trees by the end of March 2013;
Initiate research on spore production at infected sites;
Work with partners to publish targeted advice on movement of leaf litter.
Objective 2—developing resistance
Work across Europe to share data and experience on resistance to Chalara;
Work with research councils and other bodies in the UK to identify and prioritise research needs on resistance and ensure those needs are met.
Objective 3—encouraging public, landowner and industry engagement
Fund a feasibility study to accelerate the development of the ObservaTREE, a tree health early warning system using volunteer groups;
Develop a plant health network of trained people to support official surveillance and detection;
Continue to work with the OPAL consortium to develop the OPAL survey on tree health for launch in May 2013;
Support a biosecurity themed show garden at next year’s Chelsea flower show.
Objective 4—building resilience in the UK woodland and associated industries
Publish silvicultural guidance on adapting to Chalara;
Publish maps showing the distribution of important ash trees across Great Britain;
Work with the horticulture and nursery sectors on long-term resilience to the impact of Chalara and other plant health threats.
These actions are interim measures based on our current state of knowledge and will be updated as that knowledge develops over the coming months. Until the science becomes more certain, we will continue to apply a single, national response to the disease and the current ban on movements of ash trees in Great Britain will remain in place.
Landowners, voluntary organisations and the general public all have a crucial role to play in helping us implement this plan by identifying and managing the spread of the disease and adapting to its impact. The control plan sets out a number of actions to enable them to do this and new advice to landowners and woodland managers will be published today by the Forestry Commission alongside the control plan.
While our best hope of securing the future of the British ash tree lies with understanding the genetic variability in ash and identifying resistance to Chalara, the greatest area of uncertainty remains how we should deal with infected trees. To date we have been pursuing a policy of tracing and destroying young infected trees across Great Britain to slow the rate of spread. However, that is unlikely to be sustainable in the longer-term and there may be benefits from a more targeted approach. We will therefore work with stakeholders and experts over the coming months to explore the costs and benefits of a range of alternative approaches to slow the spread of Chalara.
I believe this approach will put us in the best possible position to respond with pace to the disease over the winter months while the disease is not spreading.
Task Force on Tree Health and Plant Biosecurity
In parallel to the work in response to Chalara in October, I asked my chief scientific advisor to convene an independent expert taskforce on tree health and plant biosecurity to assess the current disease threats to the UK and to make recommendations about how those threats could be addressed. The taskforce has produced an interim report which is also published today. Its recommendations are:
Develop a prioritised UK risk register for tree health and plant biosecurity;
Strengthen biosecurity to reduce risks at the border and within the UK;
Appoint a chief plant health officer to own the UK risk register and provide strategic and tactical leadership for managing those risks;
Review, simplify and strengthen governance and legislation;
Maximise the use of epidemiological intelligence from EU/other regions and work to improve the EU regulations concerned with tree and plant biosecurity;
Develop and implement procedures for preparedness and contingency planning to control the spread of disease;
Develop a modern, user-friendly, expert system to provide quick and intelligent access to data about tree health and plant biosecurity;
Identify and address key skills shortages.
I welcome these initial recommendations and look forward to receiving the taskforce’s final report in the spring.
I have arranged for copies of the interim control plan for Chalara and the interim report of the taskforce on tree health and plant biosecurity to be placed in the Libraries of both Houses.
However, Government alone cannot address this issue. Industry, landowners, environmental groups and the wider public all have an important part to play. Over the coming months, we will continue to work with all those who can play a role in developing innovative approaches to protecting our economy and the environment from the increasing threat posed by plant pests and diseases. I will return when I have considered the final recommendations from the taskforce, setting out my plans for radical action to reform our approach to plant and tree health in the light of the taskforce’s recommendations.
Single Payment Scheme
(12 years ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr David Heath)
I am pleased to be able to make a statement about the opening of the window for payments to farmers in England under the EU common agricultural policy single payment scheme (SPS) for 2012.
On 3 December 2012 the Rural Payments Agency paid more than £1.38 billion to more than 95,000 farmers, meeting its target for the end of December 2012 on the first banking day of the payment window. This equates to 84.6% of the estimated fund value and 91.4% of customers, and represents the best ever performance on the part of the agency. This is excellent news for English farmers and for the wider rural economy.
As last year, the agency shortly will be contacting farmers who are unlikely to be paid during December to explain what additional work must be done to validate their claims and to clarify the arrangements for payment.
The agency is working to a ministerial commitment, set out in its business plan for 2012-13, to pay 84% of payments by value and 91% of customers by number by 31 December 2012, and 97% of payments and 97% of customers by end March 2013.
Foreign Affairs Council/General Affairs Council
(12 years ago)
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The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs and I will attend the Foreign Affairs Council (FAC) on 10 December, and I will attend the General Affairs Council (GAC) on 11 December in Brussels. The Foreign Affairs Council will be chaired by the High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Baroness Ashton of Upholland, and the General Affairs Council will be chaired by the Cypriot Presidency.
Foreign Affairs Council (FAC)
EU-Russia Summit
Ministers will discuss the EU-Russia summit which will be held in Brussels on 21 December. While I do not expect conclusions to be issued, we will aim to ensure that this meeting, the 30th such summit, delivers concrete results for the EU in its relationship with Russia. The discussion provides an opportunity for the UK to steer the EU’s objectives for the summit and to ensure discussion focuses on concrete achievable outcomes, such as: resolution of the Siberian overflight charges; movement on market reform; positive developments in the energy relationship; underlining member states’ concerns on human rights and democratic standards; and a more effective partnership for modernisation.
Western Balkans
Ministers will review the situation in the countries of the western Balkans, in advance of the discussion of EU enlargement at the GAC the following day. This will be an opportunity to consider the latest developments in the EU-facilitated dialogue between the Prime Ministers of Serbia and Kosovo: the UK welcomes the leadership of Baroness Ashton on this and is keen to see further improvement in the relations between the two sides. There may also be some discussion of the situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina, where the pace of reform has recently slowed and renewed progress is badly needed, as well as consideration of the situations in Macedonia and Albania. I do not expect conclusions.
Southern Neighbourhood
There will be a discussion on Syria. Further to a UK drive to increase EU support to Syrian civil society, I anticipate that the European External Action Service (EEAS) will present its vision on how the EU can support civil society in coping with the consequences of the ongoing conflict and better prepare it for political transition. We also expect discussion on the relationship between EU member states and the newly formed Syrian National Coalition. Having successfully amended the EU arms embargo (and sanctions package) by setting a three-month renewal period, we will make fresh arguments in support of amending the arms embargo ahead of the March 2013 deadline in a way that offers sufficient flexibility to increase practical support to the Syrian opposition.
Ministers may also take stock of recent events in Libya, including how to support the priorities of the new Prime Minister, Ali Zidan, and his Government which have now taken office. There will be an opportunity to discuss the provision and co-ordination of international assistance to the new Libyan authorities.
The Council may discuss events in Egypt following President Mursi’s 22 November constitutional declaration. The situation on the ground is changing rapidly, but we will argue for the EU to respond appropriately to the latest developments and clearly underline support for continued progress towards democracy.
Middle East Peace Process
The discussions on the middle east peace process will focus on follow-up to the 29 November UN General Assembly resolution, including the EU’s response to the Israeli decisions to build 3,000 new housing units in East Jerusalem and the west bank, to unfreeze planning in the area known as E1 and to withhold tax revenue from the Palestinian authority. EU Ministers will also discuss facilitating a rapid return to credible negotiations in order to secure a two-state solution. We will reiterate our condemnation of the Israeli decision, underlining the threat this poses to the two-state solution, and stress the need to continue work to build on the May FAC conclusions. We will also emphasise the need for the US, with the strong and active support of the EU, to do all it can in the coming weeks and months to take a decisive lead and push the peace process forward urgently. Additionally, the UK will stress the need to build on the Gaza ceasefire and to address the underlying causes of the conflict including more open access to and from Gaza for trade as well as humanitarian assistance, and an end to the smuggling of weapons. The UK will support conclusions covering these points.
EU-US
This item has been re-scheduled from November’s FAC. Ministers will have the opportunity to discuss the EU’s priorities with the US following the US presidential elections on 6 November and the re-election of President Obama. I expect the discussion to cover a spectrum of leading international issues, including the global economy and a possible EU-US free trade deal.
Ukraine and Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC)
We also expect Ministers to agree conclusions on Ukraine and the DRC.
General Affairs Council (GAC)
There is a substantial agenda for the GAC in December. There is a legislative deliberation on the statute of the Court of Justice of the European Union; a presentation by the Commission on the annual growth survey; preparation for the European Council on 13 and 14 December; endorsement of the 18-month programme for the Presidencies of Ireland, Lithuania and Greece; and a discussion on enlargement, covering all potential candidates and including the adoption of EU common positions for the accession conference with Iceland. Due to the large agenda, I expect many of these items to be brief and I expect most of the discussion to focus on the preparation for the European Council on 13 and 14 December and on enlargement.
Statute of the Court of Justice of the European Union
The Cypriot Presidency hopes to secure agreement on a selection method for additional judges at the general Court of the Court of Justice of the European Union: we have not yet received the final proposal for this. I remain concerned at the current backlog at the general Court, which is damaging to the interests of British business. My priorities in the discussion will be: to ensure that there is proportionate common law representation among any additional judges; that the costs of additional judges are covered within existing budgets; and that the selection method provides the Court with the stability it requires to function effectively.
European Semester and the Annual Growth Survey
The Commission will present key elements of the 2013 annual growth survey which can be found on the Commission’s website.
http://ec.europa.eu/europe2020/pdf/ags2013_en.pdf
The annual growth survey sets out the Commission’s views on the economic priorities for Europe for 2013, focusing on fiscal consolidation, promoting economic growth and employment. The survey, which represents the first stage of the 2013 European semester, focuses on growth-friendly fiscal consolidation measures across the EU. The European semester is the EU-wide framework for co-ordinating structural reforms and growth-enhancing policies. We do not expect this item to be opened for substantive discussion but, in the event that it is, I will be supporting the focus on growth.
Preparation for the December European Council
The agenda for the December European Council will cover: economic policy, including economic and monetary union and banking union; defence; enlargement; and foreign policy. The last two items are covered by the separate sections of this written ministerial statement on enlargement and on the Foreign Affairs Council.
The bulk of the European Council meeting will focus on agreeing a legislative framework for banking union and an agenda for further economic and monetary integration in the Eurozone.
At the December European Council the Prime Minister will seek to ensure the integrity of the single market at 27, including in the context of the banking union and the European Banking Authority. We will also press for further progress on growth and ensure that the timetable for further integration in the Eurozone progresses at the right pace and in the right way. I will argue that these concerns should be addressed prior to the December European Council so that solutions to these issues can be put to leaders on 13 and 14 December. The December European Council agenda item on defence will pave the way for further discussion in 2013. I will argue for a focus on developing capabilities, enhancing operational effectiveness and strengthening the European defence industry.
The 18-month programme for the Presidencies of Ireland, Lithuania and Greece
The GAC has been asked to endorse the 18-month programme of the Council. This sets out the combined programme for the Irish, Lithuanian and Greek Presidencies of the European Council covering the period January 2013 to June 2014. I expect the programme to be published shortly.
Enlargement
Ministers will seek to agree conclusions taking stock of progress on EU enlargement, and on the stabilisation and association process in the western Balkans. The Commission released their annual enlargement package on 10 October. In this communication, the Commission recommended: (i) opening accession negotiations with Macedonia; and (ii) granting Albania candidate-status subject to the completion of three specific measures and evidence of continued commitment in the fight against organised crime and corruption. We believe the communication to be a broadly fair and balanced assessment.
We will seek conclusions reconfirming the European Council’s support for EU enlargement and recognising that the accession process gives strong encouragement, to political and economic reform and reinforces peace, democracy and stability. We agree with the Commission’s view that closer relations with the EU should be based on the principles of delivery on commitments, fair and rigorous conditionality, and good communication with the public. We agree that key challenges remain for most enlargement countries, including in the area of the rule of law. We also support a focus on freedom of expression and regional co-operation, particularly for the western Balkans countries.
I set out the Government’s views on the Commission’s reports in my explanatory memorandum of 18 October. We will seek Council conclusions welcoming Croatia’s continued progress towards meeting all of its commitments in full before its expected accession on 1 July 2013, while reiterating the Commission’s call for Croatia to sharpen its focus to ensure this is achieved.
I will seek conclusions that provide a fair and balanced assessment of Turkey’s progress, which will inject much needed momentum into the process to allow accession negotiations to move forward in 2013. I will argue that Iceland should be commended on the progress made in accession negotiations this year, while recalling the need for Iceland to address existing obligations, such as those identified by the European Free Trade Association Surveillance Authority under the European economic area agreement.
I also expect the Council to welcome the opening of accession negotiations with Montenegro in June 2012, while calling for early progress in the area of the rule of law, in line with the new approach to accession negotiations endorsed by the Council in December 2011.
Following the FAC discussion of 10 December, the GAC will discuss the Commission’s enlargement package for the western Balkans countries. We remain fully supportive of a future for all of the western Balkans countries in the EU, once conditions are met. We want the European Council to commend good progress on reform in Macedonia through the high-level accession dialogue, and hope the European Council will be able to build on this by agreeing to the Commission’s fourth successive recommendation to open accession negotiations.
In the absence of a further report from the Commission, the December European Council will not be in a position to grant candidate status to Albania; we will want it to call on Albania to make early progress on reform implementation and establish a track record on tackling organised crime and corruption to enable a decision in 2013. I will argue for Council conclusions that underline that Serbia still needs to make real progress to deliver a “visible and sustainable improvement” in its relations with Pristina before accession negotiations can be opened, while noting that this remains in reach if recent progress continues. We want the Council to welcome the Commission’s assessment that a stabilisation and association agreement with Kosovo is feasible and to signal that negotiations should begin as soon as possible. We agree with the Commission’s assessment that Bosnia and Herzegovina’s progress on its EU agenda has stalled. We will want the Council to press the leaders of Bosnia and Herzegovina to make progress and deliver quickly on those issues they themselves have agreed to, for example, on the EU road map agreed in June.
Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures
(12 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
Section 19(1) of the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act 2011 (the Act) requires the Secretary of State to report to Parliament as soon as reasonably practicable after the end of every relevant three-month period on the exercise of her TPIM powers under the Act during that period.
The level of information provided will always be subject to slight variations based on operational advice.
TPIM notices in force (as of 30 November 2012) | 10 |
TPIM notices in respect of British citizens (as of 30 November 2012) | 9 |
Variations made to measures specified in TPIM notices | 12 |
Applications to vary measures specified in TPIM notices refused | 7 |
During the reporting period: one TPIM notice was imposed; no TPIM notices were extended; no TPIM notices were revoked; and no TPIM notices were revived.
A TPIM review group (TRG) keeps every TPIM notice under regular and formal review. The TPIM review group met twice during this reporting period.
No individuals were charged in relation to an offence under section 23 of the Act (contravening a measure specified in a TPIM notice without reasonable excuse) during the period.
Section 16 of the 2011 Act provides rights of appeal against decisions by the Secretary of State in relation to decisions taken under the Act. No appeals were lodged under section 16 during the reporting period.
Two judgments have been handed down by the High Court in relation to the review of TPIM notices under section 9 of the Act. In Secretary of State for the Home Department v CC and CF [2012] EWHC 2837 (admin), handed down on 19 October 2012, the High Court upheld the TPIM notices imposed on CC and CF (and the control orders which they were subject to before the TPIM notices). CC and CF have applied for permission to appeal the judgment. In Secretary of State for the Home Department v CD [2012] EWHC 3026 (admin), handed down on 5 November 2012, the High Court upheld TPIM notice imposed on CD. Most foil judgments are available at: http://www.bailii.org/.
Development Co-operation and Humanitarian Aid Report
(12 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for International Development (Justine Greening)
I wish to inform the House that, further to the oral statement by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs launching the review of the balance of competences in July and his written statement on the progress of the review on 23 October 2012, Official Report, column 46WS, the Department for International Development (DFID) has published its call for evidence for the development co-operation and humanitarian aid report.
This report will be completed by summer 2013 and will cover the ways in which the European Union uses its powers to act in the sphere of development co-operation and humanitarian aid. Nearly 20% of DFID’s budget is managed through the European Commission, making the EU our biggest multilateral partner in terms of aid volume.
The report will deal with the range of development co-operation and humanitarian aid issues. The call for evidence also outlines the interdependencies between the development and humanitarian aid report and other related reports in order to clarify as far as possible the range of evidence we will be considering. A legal annex outlines the legal base for the current balance of competences, drawing chiefly on articles 208 to 214 of the treaty on the functioning of the European Union (TFEU).
The call for evidence period will be open for 12 weeks. DFID will draw together the evidence and policy analysis into a first draft, which will subsequently go through a process of scrutiny before publication in summer 2013.
DFID will take a rigorous approach to the collection and analysis of evidence. The call for evidence sets out the scope of the report and includes a series of broad questions on which contributors are to focus. Interested parties are invited to provide evidence relating to issues of competence in the fields of development co-operation and humanitarian aid. The evidence received (subject to the provisions of the Data Protection Act) will be published alongside the final report in June 2013 and will be available on the new Government website: www.gov.uk.
DFID will pursue an active engagement process, consulting widely across Parliament and its Committees, the devolved Administrations, multilateral organisations such as the UN, and civil society in order to obtain evidence to contribute to our analysis of the issues. Our EU partners and the EU institutions will also be invited to contribute evidence to the review. We aim to reach a wide range of interested parties to ensure a high yield of valuable information.
The result of the report will be a comprehensive, thorough and detailed analysis of how the EU’s actions in the fields of development co-operation and humanitarian aid impact the UK and our development objectives. It will aid our understanding of the nature of our EU membership; and it will provide a constructive and serious contribution to the wider European debate about modernising, reforming and improving the EU. The report will not produce specific policy recommendations.
I am placing this document and the call for evidence in the Library of the House. They will also be published on the DFID website and accessible through the balance of competences review pages on the Foreign and Commonwealth Office website.
Closure of DFID Kosovo
(12 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for International Development (Justine Greening)
On 30 November DFID closed its office in Kosovo. This is DFID’s last bilateral programme in Europe and hence it is a symbolic moment for the UK’s relations with the countries of the former eastern bloc. It is also evidence of how DFID’s assistance is changing.
The UK commenced assistance to the former communist countries of Europe in 1989. It has since operated programmes in central and eastern Europe, the former Soviet Union and former Yugoslavia to build the foundations of democratic societies and free markets, helping improve living standards for millions of people.
While much remains to be done, progress has been undeniable. The World Bank estimates that between 1998 and 2003, for example, 40 million people in the region left extreme poverty (defined as living on less than $2 per day) as a result of rapid growth and narrowing inequality. Twenty-three years after the fall of the Berlin wall, 12 former communist countries are our trading partners in the European Union, democratic elections are the norm, and many countries which previously received aid are now donors themselves.
The UK has progressively reduced its aid programme in response to this progress. Assistance for 10 central European and Baltic countries ended when they joined the EU in 2004. Assistance to Romania and Bulgaria ended on their accession in 2007, and programmes were closed in Albania in 2008 and Bosnia and Herzegovina, Moldova and Serbia in early 2011.
We are therefore at the end of a significant period, in which the UK can be proud of its contribution. In future, DFID’s engagement will be through the multilateral system, which we believe is now better placed to respond to the region’s emerging needs.
We will work with the European Union to ensure their assistance through the instrument for pre-accession (IPA) and European neighbourhood partnership instrument (ENPI) is focused on appropriate priorities, monitorable results, and value for money. We believe these instruments can be made significantly more effective.
We will use our position on the boards of the World Bank and IMF, the European Bank for reconstruction and development and the European Investment Bank to promote high-quality investments in infrastructure and private sector development, where significant needs remain.
Finally, we recognise that in some regions, particularly the western Balkans, the threat of conflict remains. We will continue to contribute to the UK conflict prevention pool alongside the FCO and MOD. The CPP has allocated £16 million for programmes in wider Europe this financial year, which will support projects in areas such as security sector reform, rule of law, training for peacekeepers and support for political settlements.
Inter-city West Coast Franchise
(12 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)
On 15 October 2012, Official Report, column 6WS, I announced to the House that following the cancellation of the inter-city west coast franchise competition the Department for Transport was commencing negotiations with Virgin Rail Group (VRG).
I can today announce that negotiations have concluded successfully and that Virgin trains will continue to operate services on the west coast main line.
After careful consideration I believe taxpayers, rail passengers and the wider rail industry will be better served by moving directly from this agreement with VRG to a longer-term franchise on the west coast main line. Doing so will provide greater certainty for passengers, minimise disruption for all stakeholders and enable us to maximise the benefits for taxpayers and west coast passengers. For this reason the new franchise with VRG will be for up to 23 months.
I am also pleased to announce that passengers will not only experience the same levels of service they have previously enjoyed but will also benefit from improvements to previous levels.
In addition this agreement coincides with the successful completion today, on budget and ahead of schedule, of a project to deliver 106 new Pendolino carriages on to the west coast main line.
The new carriages, which will see up to 28,000 extra seats provided each day, are being introduced with £1.5 billion of Government support.
Under the new franchise agreement, there will also be a new hourly service between London and Glasgow.
This franchise will operate as a management contract, with both revenue and cost-risk being borne by the Government. In return VRG will receive a margin of 1% on revenue. The contract also makes a provision for the Department and VRG to agree revised commercial terms that would see VRG take greater revenue and cost-risk in the period to 9 November 2014.
Disability Employment
(12 years ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Esther McVey)
I would like to make a statement on Remploy to update the House on the next steps in the reforms that my predecessor as Minister for Disabled People, my right hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Maria Miller), set out in this House on 10 July 2012, Official Report, column 167.
The Remploy board is today making make an announcement, and is quite rightly informing all those employees whom it affects.
The Remploy board has now concluded its assessment of the stage 2 businesses. It has been working closely with the Department for Work and Pensions and independent business analysts to explore in detail whether the remaining factory based businesses (automotive, automotive textiles, e-cycle, frontline, furniture, marine and packaging), CCTV contracts and employment services could viably exit Government ownership and if so, how this could be best achieved.
Further work is being undertaken on employment services and a separate announcement will follow when a decision has been made.
The Government have decided to confirm the exit of stage 2 factories and businesses, and the Remploy board has today announced the results of its analysis and its proposals for a commercial process for stage 2 factory businesses and the CCTV business.
The automotive business operating from factories in Coventry, Birmingham and Derby is considered by Remploy to be a viable business. It has the potential to successfully move out of Government-funded support as a going concern. Remploy will now move to market this business, there is no proposal to close this business and staff at these sites are not formally at risk of redundancy.
The automotive textiles operation at Huddersfield is not commercially viable and the factory there is proposed for closure. All staff in this business are now at risk of redundancy.
The furniture business based in Neath (Port Talbot), Sheffield and Blackburn has the potential to be commercially viable but would require significant restructuring consideration and downsizing of its operations. Remploy will market this business as a prospective going concern, while recognising that the current trading position of the business may ultimately result in no viable bids being received and that there may therefore be consequential redundancies and factory closures. All staff in this business are now at risk of redundancy.
The marine textiles business (based at Leven and Cowdenbeath) has an established market position and might attract commercial interest. Remploy management will discuss any potential opportunities for a commercial exit with its current distributor and any other parties who express an interest. However the business currently makes significant losses and is not saleable currently as a going concern. The employees of the marine textiles business are therefore at risk of redundancy.
The CCTV business has the potential to become a viable business or series of businesses and successfully move out of Government control. Remploy will now discuss with the 27 organisations who have let contracts to Remploy their intentions and the opportunity to market this business and its 27 contracts as a going concern. If the business can be sold it may result in potential TUPE transfers. In the event that it cannot be sold compulsory redundancies will be made and all employees in the CCTV business are therefore at risk of redundancy.
In addition to automotive textiles, three other Remploy businesses are not commercially viable or have little realistic prospect of being sold as going concerns. These are e-cycle (based at Forth and Heywood), frontline textiles (based at Dundee, Stirling and Clydebank) and packaging (based at Norwich, Portsmouth, Burnley and Sunderland). These factories are now proposed for closure with all the staff working there and at the associated business offices at risk of redundancy
As a means of reducing the number of potential job losses Remploy will, from today commence a commercial process and invite expressions of interest from any individuals or organisations who would like to buy all or parts of these businesses or sites proposed for closure. They will also be inviting expressions of interest for the assets associated with these sites, although “going concern” business sales will take precedent over asset sales.
As a result of these proposals a total of 875 employees including 682 disabled employees in the automotive textiles, e-cycle, frontline textiles, furniture, marine textiles, packaging and CCTV businesses are being placed at risk of compulsory redundancy.
If a successful sale or transfer of ownership is possible and such sale or transfer falls within the provisions of the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006 (TUPE), employees employed in or assigned to the relevant businesses will transfer to the new owner under TUPE. However, if TUPE does not apply, the number of employees who may transfer to the new business cannot be guaranteed as this will be a matter of negotiation between the bidder and Remploy.
It is important to note that no final decisions have been made about the factory closures or about redundancies in stage 2 factories or businesses at this time.
I expect the process for exits or closures to have been completed by October 2013.
To encourage bids that maximise the continued employment of disabled people, the Department for Work and Pensions will offer a three-year tapering wage subsidy totalling £6,400 for each eligible disabled member of staff. In addition Remploy will also fund professional advice and support worth up to £10,000 for employee-led bids. This is in line with the offer of support in stage 1.
Remploy’s automotive business will continue to operate business as usual. There is no proposal to close this business at this stage.
Remploy employment services business will also continue to operate business as usual.
The Government have made £8 million available for 18 months to fund the delivery of a people help and support package across the UK for any disabled individuals who are made redundant. This tailored support from the people help and support package includes access to a personal case worker to help individuals with their future choices and a personal budget for additional support.
We will use the expertise of Remploy’s employment services which, despite difficult economic times over the last two years, has found jobs for around 50,000 disabled and disadvantaged people.
We are working with Remploy employment services, local and national employers, and the Business Disability Forum (BDF) to offer targeted work opportunities for disabled people. This could include guaranteed interviews, work trials, industry sector specific training, pre-application training (including mock interviews), on the job training and employer training in how to make adjustments for particular impairments.
We have also set up a community support fund to provide grants to local voluntary sector and user-led organisations to run a variety of projects to support disabled Remploy employees and their families.
Of the 1,349 disabled people affected by the factory closures, 875 have expressed an interest in returning to work and are actively using the support package, so the latest results mean that just under 15% of those are now in work. It is one of our top priorities to maximise employment opportunities for the Remploy factory leavers.
This is an ongoing process, and as it develops, I commit to keeping this House updated on the status of the business plans going through to the next stage. I will provide a further update on progress in the new year.
House of Lords
UK-Israel Life Sciences Council
(12 years ago)
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Baroness Deech
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the UK-Israel Life Sciences Council.
The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)
My Lords, the UK-Israel Life Sciences Council is an excellent example of the opportunities for successful collaboration between our two countries. Since its launch in 2011, funding has been raised for five major research projects in regenerative medicine as part of the British-Israel research and academic exchange programme.
Baroness Deech
I welcome the Minister’s reply. She is aware, I imagine, that this work could produce great advances in stem cell and regenerative medicine, which may make a major difference in the treatment of diabetes, Parkinson’s and multiple sclerosis. Does she therefore agree that this sort of work, and the search for cures, should rise above politics? Will she condemn the politicisation of academic exchange—for example, boycotts of scientific work—which could have so much potential for cures in this country?
Baroness Warsi
My Lords, regenerative medicine, such as stem cell treatments, has the potential to play an increasingly vital role in delivering the next generation of healthcare, offering treatments or possible cures for areas of unmet medical need. Where there are areas of expertise, both in this country and in Israel—or in any other country around the world—it is important for that collaborative work to continue. When we are collaborating with countries that we consider to be friends and there are disagreements, we still have those discussions, for it is important that this work continues.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
My Lords, does not the pre-eminence of Israel in this and so many other fields, and also the academic freedom enjoyed by universities in Israel, make nonsense of any attempts by our academics to boycott their counterparts in Israel? Will the Minister, as the noble Baroness suggested, roundly condemn any such attempts at a boycott?
Baroness Warsi
My Lords, the UK Government have made their position on boycotts clear. We do not hesitate to express disagreement with Israel whenever we feel it is necessary, but we also enjoy a close and productive relationship with Israel. It is this very relationship that allows us to have the frank discussions that are often necessary between friends. We believe that imposing boycotts would lessen that influence, not increase it.
Lord Palmer of Childs Hill
My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that joint business initiatives between Palestinians and Israelis could play a valuable role in encouraging diplomatic engagement between both peoples? What role does the Minister consider that the Government can play in supporting such efforts, very much within what the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, has said about the UK-Israel Life Sciences Council’s work?
Baroness Warsi
As the noble Lord will be aware, the UK-Israel Life Sciences Council is a group of top scientists from both countries and includes Members of your Lordships’ House as well as, I think, four Nobel Prize winners. I think that all noble Lords would agree that we are at a very delicate stage in the Middle East peace process. As I have said from this Dispatch Box on many occasions in the past few weeks, 2013 will be a critical year. It is therefore important that we use whatever avenues we have to strengthen those diplomatic relations to achieve a peaceful resolution to a two-state solution in the Middle East.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
My Lords, does the Minister accept that I would have no difficulty in answering my noble friend’s Question? I oppose fundamentally any boycotting of co-operation between academics and researchers in this country and those in Israel. However, does she not also agree that when the Government of Israel pay absolutely no respect to the views of the British Government on crucial issues of international policy, such as the legality of settlements, that is bound to have an effect on government-to-government relations, even if it should not have an effect on co-operation between scientists and academics?
Baroness Warsi
I am a firm believer that when matters are most difficult to discuss, that is the time to strengthen relationships further. We have never managed to resolve any matter by walking away from relationships. It is because we have strong relationships with Israel on a variety of issues that we can be so robust in our engagement. I hope noble Lords will agree that we have been robust in that engagement in the past week. Noble Lords will be aware that on Monday the Israeli ambassador was called in by the Minister for the Middle East to express our grave concerns about illegal settlements and the comments made by the Israeli Government.
Lord Turnberg
My Lords, the medical field is a rich source of interaction not only between the UK and Israel but also, and perhaps more importantly, between Israel and the Palestinians. When I go round hospitals in Israel I see many Palestinian patients from both Gaza and the West Bank. Is the Minister aware of this?
Baroness Warsi
It is not something that I am directly aware of, but I am grateful for the noble Lord’s information.
Lord Howarth of Newport
If academic effort ought to be collaborative across international frontiers, and that is surely right, why do Education Ministers so frequently speak of British universities being in competition with universities elsewhere in the world?
Baroness Warsi
I am sure that noble Lords will agree that British universities are some of the best in the world. We therefore have to praise our competitiveness and competitive edge. Whenever I and my ministerial colleagues are in places around the world we say that we are in direct competition with other academic institutions, because we are trying to encourage citizens of those countries to choose Britain as a destination for study.
Lord Kilclooney
My Lords, the Minister said that the Israeli ambassador was called in to the Foreign Office about the seizure of Palestinian land by Israel. What was his response?
Baroness Warsi
My Lords, that is probably slightly beyond the Question on the Order Paper. However, I can inform the noble Lord that the Minister made very clear to the Israeli ambassador Britain’s real concerns about the comments made about further settlements. I think that the ambassador was left with no doubt about the British Government’s strength of feeling on this matter.
Lord Dykes
Further to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, does my noble friend the Minister agree that one of the main reasons why the Israeli Government—much to the disappointment of many Israeli citizens—repeatedly ignore the representations made by the UK and other western Governments on their action in the Occupied Territories is that the United States has exercised more than 30 vetoes since 1967 to stop Israel following international law? What do the UK Government think of American veto-itis in this matter?
Baroness Warsi
The Government have made it clear that real progress has to be made next year, and that progress cannot be made without the US taking a lead. It has to get behind the initiative for next year. As I have said before from this Dispatch Box, this is a president in his second term, where it is right that he should prioritise these matters.
Department of Health: Budget
(12 years ago)
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Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what proportion of the Department of Health’s budget for the 2010-11 and 2011-12 financial years was unspent.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, in asking the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper, I remind the House of my health interests.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)
My Lords, the department underspent against its budget by 1.7% in 2010-11 and by 1.3% in 2011-12, or by 1.5% combined across the two years.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I think that is about £3 billion; perhaps the noble Earl will confirm that. This Government promised to protect the NHS and to cut the deficit. In fact, they are cutting the NHS and the deficit is rising. How can the department justify handing back so much money to the Treasury when large parts of the NHS are under great financial pressure at the moment?
Earl Howe
My Lords, the deficit is not rising. The Government are putting £12.5 billion extra into the NHS over the course of the spending review. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, will know from his ministerial experience that government departments have an absolute requirement to manage expenditure within the financial controls that are set by Her Majesty’s Treasury and voted on by Parliament. For the Department of Health that means that the net expenditure outturn, which incidentally stems from around 400 organisations, all of whose accounts have to be consolidated, must be contained within the revenue and capital expenditure limits. Given those circumstances, it is sensible to plan for a modest underspend to mitigate against unexpected cost pressures.
Lord Mawhinney
My Lords, why does my noble friend believe that he will be able to tell your Lordships’ House that all the PFI hospital projects undertaken under the previous Administration, some of which are in a serious financial mess, will be deemed to be financially sustainable? How many of them are likely to require extra expenditure from his budget to achieve that desired end?
Earl Howe
My noble friend raises a very important issue. The analysis that we have done on hospitals financed by private finance initiative has indicated that there are seven trusts that are basically unsustainable as a result of their PFI commitments. The Department of Health has therefore undertaken to support those trusts to enable them to make up the shortfall which is beyond their control. It would be wrong to suggest that PFI was a solution that did not deliver benefits. Clearly it did, but I am afraid that some of the sums that were done initially were sadly wanting.
Lord Warner
My Lords, what consideration was given by the Government before they repatriated, as my noble friend said, £3 billion to the Treasury? What consideration was given to using some of that money to buttress social care, which makes great demands on the NHS and which has suffered on average a 7% cut in each of the past two years?
Earl Howe
My Lords, we did, as the noble Lord would expect, look at the anticipated surplus this time last year and we channelled an extra £150 million into social care then in the near-certain knowledge that the department would generate a surplus during the year. However, as he will know, it is an inexact science to predict in December what the outturn will be in April, and one has to be prudent at that stage.
Lord Alderdice
My Lords, my noble friend gave a reassuring Answer a week or two ago about the balancing of expenditure and resources between mental health services and physical health services within the NHS. Is it possible for my noble friend’s department to look to the possibility of any surpluses in the future being used to achieve greater parity between mental health services and the rest of the NHS, given the decisions made in your Lordships’ House regarding the Health and Social Care Act 2012 and the mandate for the NHS Commissioning Board that has flown from it?
Earl Howe
My noble friend makes an extremely important point. He will know that the Government have made it clear that mental health problems should be treated as seriously as physical health problems. That commitment has now been made explicit in the Health and Social Care Act 2012. As he mentioned, the Government’s mandate to the NHS Commissioning Board explicitly recognises the importance of putting mental health on a par with physical health. It tasks the NHS Commissioning Board with developing a collaborative programme of action to achieve that and it will be held to account accordingly.
Lord Laming
My Lords, does the Department of Health and its Ministers monitor the number of people who today are in hospital and whose treatment is being completed, but who are there because alternative arrangements have not been made for them?
Earl Howe
Yes, my Lords. As the noble Lord will know, the problem of delayed transfers of care is not new. We have seen a drop in delayed transfers in terms of the number of days but there has been a levelling off in recent years. However, it is up to the NHS and social care services to collaborate to ensure that proper and appropriate community services are available to patients when they are discharged from hospital. That planning process begins the moment the patient enters hospital.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, the Minister very unusually failed to answer my noble friend Lord Warner’s question as to why the money that has gone back to the Treasury could not have been used to meet the needs of the patients to whom the noble Lord, Lord Laming, referred.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I apologise. I addressed part of the noble Lord’s question in relation to the issue around social care. The important point to make about the surplus is that none of the underspend is lost to the NHS. Under Treasury rules, the NHS is allowed to carry forward all underspends to the next year. It is not a case of the NHS having to give up any money and thereby depriving patients of treatment.
Lord Flight
My Lords, will the Minister say how much NHS spending has risen in the past 20 years in cash and real terms? I believe that in cash terms it is of the order of about £11 billion to well over £100 billion.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I would be happy to write to my noble friend. I do not have the figures for the past 20 years in front of me but I can tell him that, unlike the party opposite which promised to cut NHS expenditure had it been re-elected last time, we are protecting the NHS budget. It is now well over £100 billion. As I said earlier, it will be increased by £12.5 billion over the course of this Parliament.
NHS: Hospital Services
(12 years ago)
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Lord Warner
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress they are making with the reconfiguration of NHS hospital services.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)
My Lords, the Government’s policy is that front-line NHS reconfigurations should be locally led and clinically driven. Changes to services should be led by those who know their patients’ needs best. That is why we are empowering clinical commissioners to design the services that will make the greatest difference to improving healthcare and improving people’s lives.
Lord Warner
I am grateful to the Minister for that reply so far as it goes. In the light of yesterday’s Autumn Statement, will the Minister and his colleagues study carefully the recent Nuffield Trust report, which cogently suggested that we are facing a decade of austerity within the NHS with the need to secure 4% efficiency savings on a yearly basis, not just to 2015 but up to 2021-22? Will Health Ministers engage in a serious dialogue with the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges whose new chairman, Professor Terence Stephenson, suggested in July that we had far too many acute centres trying to provide 24/7 services across too wide a range of medical specialities? Will he accept, particularly in the light of the Answer that he gave to the previous Question, that we should be doing more to take money out of acute hospitals that are performing indifferently and putting it into community-based services?
Earl Howe
My Lords, I think it is common ground between the noble Lord and the Government that we need to see care delivered more in the community and less in acute settings; that was a policy that his Government espoused. I agree with the noble Lord and with Terence Stephenson that we need to deploy clinical leadership, evidence and insight as a driving force behind service change. Service change is not new; it has happened all the time throughout the NHS’s history. Clinical commissioning groups on the ground will be the driving force for this, but the NHS Commissioning Board will be there in support and the wisdom of the royal colleges will clearly need to be tapped to provide the board with expert clinical advice. Indeed, that is the theme behind the board’s aim to establish clinical networks and senates to help build the clinical evidence for change.
Lord Walton of Detchant
My Lords, is the Minister aware that too many patients are still being admitted to hospital solely to undergo investigations and tests that could perfectly well be carried out on an out-patient basis? Is it not therefore time to reconfigure out-patient services so that individuals will be in a position to attend hospital in order to have a clinical consultation and all the relevant tests on a single visit? That would avoid a great number of unnecessary hospital admissions.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord. He is right to say that many hospital admissions prove to be unnecessary, wasteful and expensive and we need to ensure that those who do not need to go to hospital can be appropriately looked after in the community. We also need to reduce the level of unplanned, emergency admissions to hospital. There is huge scope to do this. Many trusts are already succeeding in bringing more services into the community, but we need to accelerate the process.
Baroness Williams of Crosby
Does my noble friend agree that one thing that emerges very clearly is that real difficulties arise from not having a 24/7 primary care service, which means that figures for weekends and holidays are of course much worse than they are for the normal level of health service provision? Does he agree that it is well worth looking at bringing into the work of CCGs the contribution that can be made by ancillary services to medicine, in order to move towards a 24/7 primary care service?
Earl Howe
I agree with my noble friend and that is why work is currently being done under the leadership of Sir Bruce Keogh in the Department of Health to examine the scope for greater 24/7 working. She is right that this is important, not just for the benefit of patients but also to make the NHS more efficient and effective in deploying its staff and assets.
Lord Campbell-Savours
If services are carried forward as the noble Earl suggested, how does that influence estimates?
Earl Howe
We have reverted to the previous Question, if I am not mistaken. The departmental expenditure limit is set by the Treasury. My own department is in the fortunate position of knowing that it has real-terms increases every year of this Parliament; however, if the department has an underspend that cannot be carried forward, yes, some money has to be returned to the Treasury.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom
Does my noble friend accept that if he takes the advice of the noble Lord, Lord Warner, and moves resources from acute services to other services in the NHS, that will lead to the closure of many general hospitals that were built under the previous Government under PFIs, and even more of them will get into financial trouble than there are already?
Earl Howe
I do not anticipate that there will be widespread closures of hospitals, and it is important to reassure people about that. The NHS has always had to respond to patients’ changing needs and advances in medical technology. Reconfiguration that ensues from that is about modernising the delivery of care and facilities with a view to improving patient outcomes and developing services, as I have mentioned, in a way that makes them available closer to people’s homes. While we will see changes in service configuration, I trust and hope that we will not see widespread hospital closures, although the possibility of a hospital having to downsize can never be eliminated.
NHS: Hospital Beds
(12 years ago)
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Lord Turnberg
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the analysis of hospital bed availability in the report Dr Foster’s 2012 Hospital Guide.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)
My Lords, Department of Health data show that the average bed occupancy rate for all beds open overnight has remained stable, at between 84% and 87% since 2000. Rather than being a cause of concern, this indicates that hospitals are making efficient use of beds. NHS hospitals need to manage beds effectively in order to cope with peaks in demand. We expect to see higher occupancy rates in winter, when these demands are at their highest.
Lord Turnberg
My Lords, in thanking the Minister for his response and his endurance, I believe that we owe a debt of gratitude to Dr Foster for the report, which shows so clearly how severe the stress is that our hospitals are suffering under. With bed occupancies of 95% to 100% for much of the year for many of the hospitals, there are too often no beds available, staff are rushed off their feet, patients are not cared for properly, infection rates rise and mistakes occur. Given that almost one-third of the patients now in hospital do not need to be there and would be better off cared for in the community, and given that the community services cannot provide that care because they are so underfunded, where are we to get the money from? Simply saying that we can close a hospital or two and slide the money across from a cash-strapped NHS before those services are available will just exacerbate the problem. Would it not be better to use those end-of-year surpluses that we have been hearing about instead of returning them to the Treasury?
Earl Howe
My Lords, as I mentioned earlier, NHS underspends are not lost to the NHS—they can be carried forward from year to year. But on his central point, I should make it clear that we are struggling to reconcile the Dr Foster bed occupancy figures with those that we have. Dr Foster has stated that bed occupancy is at a dangerous level, at over 90% for 48 weeks of the year. We are looking closely at that analysis and methodology, but we cannot agree with those conclusions at the moment, given that the department monitors the position on a daily basis during the winter and on a quarterly basis at other times. However, I agree with the noble Lord that there are too many people in hospital. We need to ensure that we move more care into the community. I do not see this as insuperable within the current budgetary expenditure limits.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, I want to ask about community midwifery services and avoiding bed use by that means. Is the Minister aware of the great value to children in terms of outcomes of promoting a good relationship between midwives and parents, increasing the rate of breast-feeding and reducing episiotomies? In his reconfiguration, when he is thinking about not using so many bed spaces, will he recognise the value of local community midwifery services?
Earl Howe
Yes, my Lords. That is the precise reason why there are currently 5,000 midwives in training, which is a record number. The noble Earl is absolutely right to identify the midwifery service as key to enabling children to get a healthy start in life and parents to ensure that children get into good eating and exercise habits.
Baroness Barker
My Lords, the Dr Foster report identifies those hospitals which have a high level of inappropriate referrals of older people. Will the department do further research in those areas to see whether there is a correlation between out-of-hours GP services, and the work that they do, and a high level of inappropriate referrals of older people to acute hospitals?
Earl Howe
My Lords, it is questions of that kind that we expect the clinical commissioning groups to examine because they will become responsible for out-of-hours primary care. Therefore, it is incumbent on them to ensure that that service not only is a good one but does not lead to unwanted consequences in terms of unplanned admissions to hospital.
Lord Tomlinson
My Lords, does the Minister accept that his usual clarity has deserted him somewhat today as he has indicated that money which is underspent is returned to the Treasury but on the other hand he has said that it is not lost to the National Health Service? Does he agree that this gives a completely new meaning to double-entry bookkeeping?
Earl Howe
I shall be happy to write to the noble Lord to explain why my answers have been absolutely correct and the situation that I have described is nothing new. However, we are in a new situation in the sense that it appears that the supplementary questions can be extended at will over any other Question on the Order Paper, but I am happy to take questions from the noble Lord at any time.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
Given the report’s figure that 6% of beds are occupied by patients who are readmitted within a week, costing almost £8 million per annum, what guidance is the department giving to clinical commissioning groups to ensure that support is available in the community so that patients discharged from hospital with multiple comorbidities and frailty do not tumble back into the admissions system?
Earl Howe
The noble Baroness has identified a very important issue. The causes of emergency readmissions are, of course, several. Some of them are not the fault of the provider but some are. Therefore, we have given an instruction to commissioners to build into the contracts that they have with those providing services that penalties may be applied to the provider should emergency readmissions occur which are the fault of the provider. I would be happy to write to the noble Baroness with further details.
Police (Complaints and Conduct) Bill
Business of the House
(12 years ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That the debate on the Motion in the name of Lord Howell of Guildford set down for today shall be limited to three hours and that in the name of Lord Popat to two hours.
Scotland Act 1998 (Modification of Schedule 5) (No. 2) Order 2013
(12 years ago)
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Foreign Affairs: Global Role, Emerging Powers and New Markets
(12 years ago)
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Lord Howell of Guildford
That this House takes note of the United Kingdom’s new global role, emerging powers and new markets.
Lord Howell of Guildford
My Lords, it is an honour to open this debate, and I am particularly delighted that our energetic Trade Minister, my noble friend Lord Green, will respond to it.
After 11 years of dealing with foreign affairs issues from the Front Bench in this House, and the past two-and-a-half years as Minister, this is my first chance to thank your Lordships most warmly and properly for tolerating so generously my often inadequate and, I fear, repetitious answers to your Lordships’ penetrating questions. In fact, my wife claims that more than once she has heard me murmuring in my sleep and sitting up in bed, saying, “We are deeply disturbed by the deteriorating situation in Wonderland. We urge all parties to enter into constructive dialogue”. However, that period is past and I would now like to use my time to put forward a few propositions about our situation in this nation, which I hope will gain your Lordships’ support.
My first proposition is that in the past few years the international landscape has totally and utterly changed. Huge new markets have emerged, and new economic powers and new centres of political power have arisen. The ongoing task has been to reposition Britain in this transformed milieu. It is in these new markets that our economic destiny lies—and I was very glad to have a small part in helping this repositioning process. Of course, in this new scene are some familiar old elements. The United States remains our close ally, although possibly more as a partner than as a leader and lone superpower. Europe remains our location, in which we must find a settled position in a reformed and modernised European Union. We will be debating that more fully in 10 days’ time, although it will no doubt come up in this debate. Meanwhile, most of the world’s economic growth in the next decade will be outside the West and the north Atlantic area, with the exception of the very dynamic Canada, which I have just visited.
I do not want to exaggerate the shift to Asia and Africa, which a lot of people talk about. Most of the emerging powers, while growing at envy-making rates, are of course starting from extremely low levels. While sections of the Chinese population, particularly in the coastal cities, are as rich as anywhere in Europe, the average per capita income in China is still less than $5,000—miles behind the comparable figures of $48,000 dollars in America and $38,000 here. A lot of the fashionable talk about the so-called BRICs is highly misleading, because Russia and Brazil have little in common with India and China, or South Africa. Anyway, a new wave of fast-growing economies is overtaking them—countries such as Mexico, Turkey, Korea, Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, Bangladesh, Azerbaijan and the Caspian powers, and a new wave of African states whose prospects have been immeasurably enriched by the third energy revolution now unfolding, due to horizontal drilling and hydraulic fracturing. The UK must adjust if we are to survive, let alone prosper. Most of this was obvious anyway 20 years ago, but the commentariat, having been pathetically slow to grasp what was happening, has now just about cottoned on. Better late than never, I suppose.
My second contention is that these new markets are going to be conquered by, as much as anything, networking and soft power, as my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, William Hague, has repeatedly reminded us in his speeches from when he first took office. By soft power, I do not mean just the British Council and the BBC World Service, although they are of course extremely important. I mean the whole network of relationships that we luckily possess, but hopelessly underuse, with the Commonwealth countries, which now contain many of the world’s fastest-growing states. Foreign direct investment into the Commonwealth nations, which cover a third of the world’s population, has quadrupled in the past decade.
More than that, several of them are generating the sovereign wealth fund that we need to finance our own infrastructure improvements. That is a complete reversal of what we were taught in our school books and what history tells us—that we provided the capital to the developing world. It is now the other way round. Many of the access links that we have into the Commonwealth network—which, incidentally, in turn provides a gateway to even bigger markets beyond—lie below and outside government-to-government relations. By that I mean not just a common language but an amazing criss-crossed web and flow of common practices and standards in everything from the law and judicial administration to accountancy, medicine, education, the arts, architecture, museums, science, chartered surveying, local government systems, school links and, of course, growing business flows between Commonwealth countries.
I think that there is a great longing in this country, as in other leading Commonwealth countries such as Australia and Canada, as well as in the smaller island states, especially in the Caribbean, to make much more of these common Commonwealth soft-power links. At one stage, I called this the “necessary network” of the 21st century, by which I meant that it was necessary for such a thing to emerge in the new internet age. I am very grateful to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for giving me the chance to contribute to its strengthening and development. Of course, it is not the only route into the emerging markets but it is certainly one which ought to give us a major advantage, as our competitors keep enviously noting from time to time.
My third contention is that here at home we have to adjust our institutions and practices to these new conditions still further. For a start, we have to upgrade our trade and export machinery. Later this evening, your Lordships will hear from my noble friend Lord Heseltine on his proposals for reform in this area. He points out—and I strongly agree—that we need a far stronger system of chambers of commerce in this country with enhanced legal status as a basis for a far stronger overseas impact, particularly for small and medium-sized businesses. The typical German chamber of commerce has 30,000 members; our biggest ones have 5,000. The German branch chamber in India has 6,000 contacts; we, as the report of my noble friend Lord Heseltine says, have no chamber in India at all. As for Whitehall adjustment, I can testify to your Lordships that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is a fine machine, where, for me, it was a privilege to work and where there have recently been great changes. However, it, too, needs to move further forward. I think it is wrong that our Commonwealth connections, which are so vital to us, are bundled in with other international institutions in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. There should be a separate Commonwealth division and, of course, a separate Minister, as there used to be.
A month ago in New York, Commonwealth Foreign Ministers signed a kind of new Magna Carta—I call it a “Maxima Carta”—reasserting the commitment of member nations to human rights, the rule of law and democratic principles in all their varied and developing forms. It is a new type of commitment in the internet and cyber age. I believe that this charter, once endorsed by Heads of State, should be validated in both Houses of Parliament. I shall certainly do my best to see that the values in this new charter thrive and are reflected in practical actions and pressures by and on the Commonwealth nations—all 54 of them—as well as on those aspiring other states, of which, interestingly, there are quite a few, which want to join the new Commonwealth. For them, the magnet equation—the obvious beckoning, if you like—is that the Commonwealth badge equals, and leads to, jobs, investment and prosperity, and that is increasingly obvious.
Finally on the institutional front, dare I suggest that your Lordships’ House might do a bit of adjustment as well? There are huge new areas on the international scene which the Commons Foreign Affairs Committee, which I had the privilege of chairing for 10 years, does not have the time either to get round to or to follow up. I have in mind aspects such as the rise of Chinese investment and political activity across the globe, especially around the Indian Ocean, or the detailed reinforcement or latticework of Commonwealth connections, which I have already referred to and on which the Foreign Affairs Committee in the Commons has just reported. We badly need an international affairs committee in your Lordships’ House to make our contribution to this new scene effectively.
My fourth contention is that a new international pattern has also led to and created a new Middle East. Regional powers such as Turkey, Saudi Arabia and Egypt, if it can stabilise itself internally, and maybe eventually Iraq—the same—have arisen, are struggling to arise or are already playing a central role as new partners in addressing the intractable issues of the area, such as the Syrian horror, the continuing deadlock on the Middle East peace plan, the Islamic civil war raging across the whole area and how to contain Iran. A point much missed is that the bulk of hydrocarbons exports from the Middle East and the Gulf in fact go east to the rising powers of Asia, not to the West at all. This means that China, Japan and others in the Asian-Pacific area have just as much of a stake in preventing Middle East chaos as have the western powers, perhaps even more so. They will have to be involved constructively in seeing that the whole Arab spring does not turn sour or spread further instability, and in ensuring that Iran is diverted from its mad nuclear path. Their interests are at stake just as much as those of the West, and we need to remember that.
Energy factors are playing a huge part in transforming the Middle East and global politics. The Levant basin, with trillions of cubic metres of gas, is promising Israel a new energy resource and it may yet benefit Cyprus and even hard-pressed Lebanon as well.
My fifth and final point is that the latest energy revolution, driven by already mentioned shale technologies and the approaching self-sufficiency in gas of the US leading to it becoming an exporter before long, looks set to bring benefits all around the world and the prospect of enrichment to a stream of countries from Ukraine to Indonesia, Poland, Greece, Mozambique and Tanzania—both Commonwealth states—and even to Argentina and Japan, which has found some shale gas offshore. In short, vast new energy-related markets are opening up, all of which we can help to develop with our own immense oil and North Sea gas experience. We are uniquely well placed as a good customer for gas supplies, both piped and shipped. Norway wants to sell us much more. Russia would like to pipe gas directly to us, although we have to be careful about the volumes. Numerous new suppliers of frozen LNG lie ahead all round the world in addition to the ones we have already. We also have our own North Sea supply, which is by no means finished, quite aside from whether we decide to develop our own onshore shale gas.
All this gives us a valuable stepping stone to low carbon—gas being cleaner than coal in CO2 terms—as well as a path to lower and not higher energy bills, which we need to compete and to create more competitive industries and exports, and therefore more jobs. As we were reminded in yesterday’s Autumn Statement, we cannot afford to be left behind and ignore tumbling energy costs and rising competitiveness on the other side of the Atlantic. In the long run, nuclear power and, we hope, cheaper renewables are the only ways to decarbonisation and improving on the weakness of the present low-carbon strategies, which are not working very well, plus vastly increased energy efficiency. Japan’s and Hitachi’s support for our own nuclear programme is very welcome but we can also play a global role in new nuclear-power building, working, for example, with South Korea, which I have just visited and which is tooling up to build a string of new nuclear stations round the world. It is already building one of the world’s largest in the UAE.
Our nation is talented and it is innovative. In some surprising areas we are doing increasingly well—for example, as part of the global motor manufacturing supply chain. Our exports to the growth economies have doubled in the past two and a half years. But overall, frankly, we are not doing well enough. Europe is our neighbourhood, with which we must work and make the single market prosper; America is our ally and our friend; but the Commonwealth is our family and where our best economic hope lies. I conclude that we should spend more time with our family.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
My Lords, I begin by formally proposing the noble Lord as chairman of the possible international affairs committee. I had the privilege of following him as chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee. I have enormous respect for him and the work that he did on the Front Bench, when he was always courteous and on top of the subject. He always answered questions, which is not always the case with those on the Front Bench. I fondly welcome him to the Back Benches.
Lest this should appear to be an obituary, I detected at least one blind spot in the noble Lord’s analysis, on which I shall focus. I agree with him that we need to seek markets for our goods and services worldwide and to be ever ready to respond to global trends. However, I stress that our core area is our own region here in Europe, which accounts for 50% of our trade. It is manifestly not a case of either/or. Recent surveys predict a slower growth of our exports into the European market. Clearly the dominance of the City of London—which can, I hope, look after itself—has recently been challenged by the governor of the Bank of France, which is the penalty of our choosing to be outside the euro. Of course we need to increase our exports to the BRICs and elsewhere but there is evidence of slower growth in those markets. For example, the projected growth for Brazil this year is just under 1%; the projection for India in the financial year 2012-13 is 5.5%—the lowest for a decade; and in the third quarter, growth in Russia fell to 2.9% and in China to 7.4%.
Our starting point is surely the wisdom of the Oracle at Delphi: know thyself. We need a realistic, not a nostalgic, analysis of our strengths and weaknesses and the global environment in which we trade—know thyself. Of course, as the noble Lord said, we emerged with many advantages from our history, not least of which is the English language, our centres of excellence, our military, our diplomacy and our universities. However, the Government should be worried about the self-imposed threat to our economic prospects posed by the sharp decline in student applications from India.
Our history has made us members of key international organisations: the UN Security Council, NATO, the EU and the Commonwealth. The last, in my judgment, is surely the blind spot of the noble Lord's presentation. I consider myself a Commonwealth man, having chaired the UK branch of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association for four years, but I do not recognise the picture painted by the noble Lord. Recent CHOGMs have raised hopes of deep institutional change, but Commonwealth institutions are now in some considerable disarray. Successive Governments in the UK have worked hard to develop relations with India, a key emerging market. Frankly, however, India has little interest in the Commonwealth and is very hard-nosed on commercial matters, as we have seen on the Typhoon purchase.
In a lecture on 19 June 2007, the then Commonwealth Secretary-General, Don McKinnon, gently but effectively undermined much of the thesis of the noble Lord. I certainly do not accuse the noble Lord of this, but some in his party use Commonwealth enthusiasm as a cover for their anti-Europeanism. The Commonwealth that they favour is mainly the old dominions. That leads to symbolic and often silly gestures such as the recent agreement on the co-location of embassies with Canada at a time when our foreign policy formulation is increasingly based on close working relationships with our European partners. This is on a par with the threat by former Defence Secretary Liam Fox to leave the European Defence Agency, with its pooling and sharing—happily, the Government now appear to be rethinking this—as well as with the severing of relations with their natural allies in Europe, the European People’s Party.
An audit of relations with the EU has been ordered by the Foreign Secretary in an effort to placate anti-Europeans. I understand that the Foreign Office recently met Professor Sejersted of Norway to discuss the methodology and conclusions of his similar audit in Norway. He concluded that Norway’s relationship amounted to integration without representation—hardly a model for others.
Of course the EU may now develop a tighter inner core. We are likely to find ourselves, albeit with variable geometry, on the exterior. However, our policies seem designed to lose good friends such as Poland. Surely the Government should recognise that to leave the EU or to seek unrealistic objectives would be a major blow to our trade, not only with the EU but with third countries. I cite the recent reply in the European Parliament given by Commissioner De Gucht, who said:
“The Commission takes the view that if a Member State were to leave the European Union it would no longer benefit from preferential arrangements included in EU trade agreements. In such circumstances, a Member State would not be subject to the Union’s common commercial policy and could no longer benefit from agreements negotiated on that basis. Moreover, a third country offers concessions to the EU on a reciprocal basis, expecting market access to the Union as a whole. Third countries would be unlikely to offer as generous concessions to a Member State which has activated Article 50 that could only offer access to its own market”.
We should quite properly look at a free trade agreement with the US. There will be better prospects for that after the likely failure of the Doha round. We should remember that it is the European Union which will negotiate on our behalf as I hope we move step by step towards a free trade agreement. If any state were to leave the European Union, it would lose bargaining power and would receive less generous concessions from third parties.
My conclusion is that we should seek to boost trade throughout the world, both in the Commonwealth and elsewhere. In the debate on the future of the EU we have natural allies, but currently the Government seem to be doing their best to irritate them. Even very strong Anglophiles such as Mario Monti publicly state their exasperation and despair at UK policies. He says, in effect: “Make up your minds. Do not marginalise yourselves by your actions, which will make planning more difficult for us”. In short, we should know ourselves and avoid ideological illusions.
Lord Alderdice
My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend for securing this debate, and for the great service that he gave to your Lordships’ House, to the Government and to the country during his time in government. His answers were always thoughtful and conscientious. They were a service to your Lordships’ House and we all appreciated them. He continues that service not only by securing this debate but by pointing us to the kind of strategic thinking to which your Lordships’ House is particularly suited. I am privileged to participate in the debate and to follow him and the noble Lord, Lord Anderson.
My noble friend pointed to the fact that we are experiencing an extraordinary period of global change. We discussed this briefly in a debate earlier this week. He is absolutely right. The enormity of the change has scarcely been understood, partly because the implications are so great that people are panicking in their response to it rather than thinking reflectively. This is an opportunity for us to do so.
We are moving into a series of centenaries over the next few years, including the centenary of the commencement of the First World War. The changes that we are undergoing now, while of a very different type, are of a similar order to those that took place in the early part of the previous century, where empires that had been profoundly significant and powerful subsequently dribbled away over a period of years. Indeed, the role, power and significance of our own country in that regard, moving from being the centre of the largest empire that the world had ever seen, which is still the case, gradually found that empire being unzipped over a period of years. Some of us in Ireland think that that started with the partition of Ireland.
During that period there was a great struggle for our country to come to understand what its new possibilities and opportunities were. Many other countries that in the past had been the centre of great empires simply had a long period of subsequent decline over many decades, and sometimes centuries. Some people have taken a similar view in respect of the United Kingdom, which is misguided and unnecessary. I will explain why.
During that first period of time there was the remarkable development of the Commonwealth. That so many countries that had been colonies wanted to remain in relationship with the United Kingdom is remarkable and largely unprecedented—I will come on to talk about the Francophonie later. My noble friend has referred to this extraordinary development, and perhaps we could have made rather more of it over the years.
Then we came to the period after the Second World War and the European Union moved into the field. It was a peace process; it was an attempt to ensure that Europe did not again return to the terrible disasters of the First and Second World Wars. Now, though, we have a generation arising—my generation and certainly those coming after me—who do not really think of the European Union in that way. They think of it in economic and political terms. Indeed, most of the political leaders of Europe do not see the European Union in terms of ensuring that there is no war: they see it as a platform for themselves, their parties and their countries to play a global role.
That is a serious mistake. I do not think that that is what the population of the European Union think is the function of the European Union. The population do not particularly want to rival China, the United States and other powers; they want to get on with having a productive, peaceful, stable and prosperous life. That is what our people want.
That has led to disenchantment—a big split between the elite of Europe and its populations. It is not what the European Union was for or about. Instead, our world has begun to change further, with extraordinary developments in technology. There are some who think that the key things for us to aim for are size—to be part of somewhere that is big—and resources—that is, to have access to commodities. If we look around, though, the evidence shows that mere population size, market size or access to commodities do not by themselves provide power, influence and significance.
Last night I listened to a Member of your Lordships’ House, as I know some other colleagues did, talking about how size mattered. Of course that is true, but it is not the only thing that matters and it is not even the decisive thing. Many countries are much larger in population and in geographical terms than this country, and have greater access to resources that this country. The continent of Africa has an extraordinary resource base, but that has not made it politically powerful, significant or a leading place.
It seems to me that it is much more about our culture. I do not mean the expressions of our culture in terms of art, drama and so forth, although they are important, but the way of being that we have as a country and a community. I mean the values, principles, the things that drive us and give us a sense of confidence, our history and background, our language, our educational system and the way that we encourage our young people to think for themselves and search out the truth of the way that things are, rather than merely totting up the number of degrees that happen to be passed at universities.
That culture is something that is appreciated by every other country in the world when they look at us. We did not become powerful in the past because of size but because we looked at what we needed to do in the context of the time. Now we have a new context and we can play a significant role. Just look at how well we did with the Olympic Games—not only in organising them but in competing in them—not because we were big but because we focused and had confidence. We should be able to have that confidence because this country is not frightened by a global world. It does not feel intimidated by the fact that we have to have relationships, not just in our local area in the European Union, but right across the world. That is what we have always done, not just in trading but in relationships. Our language is a global language.
As we look to the future, we should not be saying to our young people, “Let’s look at the inevitable decline of our country”, but rather saying with confidence, “Let us look at what we and our country can contribute in a leading way to our new world order”.
Lord Thomas of Swynnerton
My Lords, I, too, express my regret at the passing of the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, who has given a good example to us all; of passing from power, that is to say. I think I first met him 50 years ago in Washington at the time of the missile crisis. I cannot now remember whether it was before or after 13 October, but it was certainly at that time.
I sometimes think that we would all be served if the Government were obliged to make an annual statement on foreign policy, along the lines of the command papers characterising our defence, which for many years we looked forward to receiving. The Foreign Office would have to consider carefully exactly what it was doing and why. The statement would point out, perhaps, that Britain’s foreign policy is the experience of someone who has membership of about six clubs. No other country in the world, not even France, has such a diversity of loyalty.
We are members of the UN and of course of the Security Council. We are the essential brooch in the chain of the Commonwealth countries. We are a member of NATO, whose charter was drafted by British public servants. Fourthly, we are a member—if now a rather reluctant member in many cases—of the European Union, which promises to turn eventually into something like a federal state; a new Holy Roman Empire. As the noble Lord, Lord Owen, pointed out in a fine speech in October, that likely development demands careful consideration as to our right course by both sceptics and by enthusiasts such as myself. Fifthly, we have separate, deep friendships with a number of countries: the United States of course, France, Portugal and many countries of Latin America, which very often glow with enthusiasm at the thought of us, because of the assistance we gave them during the 19th century. It is true that we fought Argentina in the late 20th century, but it remains in most people’s minds as:
“The purple land that England lost”,
in the words of the great writer WH Hudson. That we have to balance so many commitments partly explains our occasional difficulties. There are moments when that balance seems impossible, such as when Mr Blair decided to support the United States in the war in Iraq.
We know that our membership of all these great clubs assists us in selling our products but there is one aim in foreign policy that is probably more important than anything else, as the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, has pointed out on several occasions. That is to control the proliferation of nuclear weapons and, if we fail to secure that, at least ensure that they are not used. What we are currently seeing in respect of the civil war in Syria perhaps gives some lessons as to how we should conduct ourselves. The use of nuclear, not chemical, weapons—horrible though the latter undoubtedly are also—would lead to a catastrophe of unprecedented dimensions, and there is no more important aim facing humanity than to prevent such a thing at all costs.
A third preoccupation, naturally, is to prevent local problems such as might occur at any time in the near East or Middle East from becoming a war that could draw us in, either by the extension of terrorism or by some ramification of it.
Fourthly, we should promote the emulation of our democratic political system, as opposed to the oriental despotism that still characterises so much of Asia and Africa, although the experience of Germany in 1933 shows that the rule of law is just as important as the right to vote.
Fifthly, we should tell the world that the only economic system that works well, in our opinion, is one where the state leaves a lot of economics to itself. That is what Hernando de Soto, the brilliant Peruvian, preaches in his famous book, The Other Path, as well as what was done by the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher, all her life.
Sixthly, we should recall—and not be shy about it—that our literature is overall our greatest export, especially, I think, our poetry. Once the governor of Oaxaca in Mexico asked for my approval in advance for a speech that he was about to make at a lunch in honour of the noble Lord, Lord Carrington. The governor wanted to say, “We admire England for two reasons: Portland Cement and John Milton”. “Yes,” I said, “but put it the other way around”. “You are right,” said the governor, and he did so.
The Lord Bishop of Worcester
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, for securing this debate. I will concentrate my remarks on an aspect of Britain’s role in the emerging world order, which I believe to be extremely important.
In July, the Foreign Office Minister, Jeremy Browne, gave a speech to Chatham House on how Britain should respond to the rise of emerging powers. He spoke powerfully about what had enabled Britain to become great, pointing out how remarkable it is that a nation with less than 1% of the world's population should have such continuing influence. What was implied in his speech but was not articulated is that it is not just our wealth that has made us great in the past; it is our values, as the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, has reminded us. In looking to the future, it is important, it seems to me, that we should of course look towards becoming more effective in our trade and have an eye to our prosperity. However, we should not neglect that other side of what made this country great.
The noble Lord, Lord Sacks, has written that we have at our disposal a resource of unparalleled power with which to confront the problems of a new age, and that resource, neither mysterious nor difficult to understand, is morality—specifically, the Judaeo-Christian tradition. That is not to underestimate the importance of other faiths, but it is to say that the values that derive from the Judaeo-Christian tradition are the bedrock on which our wonderful culture is built. At the centre of that tradition is the belief that all are created equal in the image of God, with inherent dignity and infinite worth. That tenet, I suggest, should continue to be at the centre of what informs our actions on the world stage.
We live in a world of unprecedented wealth, and yet, despite all our technological advances and the vast resources at our disposal, the scourge of extreme poverty remains humanity’s most pressing challenge. Today 1.4 billion people suffer from the injustice of extreme poverty. During the course of this year I have visited diocesan links in Peru and Tanzania and met just a few of those suffering terribly. I witnessed, too, the magnificent work of the Anglican Church to address their suffering. Poverty robs people of their dignity and denies them access to their rights of shelter, food, healthcare, education, safety and a life of fulfilment. It renders them powerless, unrepresented, oppressed and vulnerable to harm and abuse. In his excellent book Good Value the noble Lord, Lord Green, has reminded us that as long as we are involved in injustice, exclusion and exploitation we are under judgment. I am delighted that the Chancellor yesterday recommitted Her Majesty’s Government to the 0.7% proportion of GDP to be directed towards aid, but for the sake of the poor we need to address the following key challenges as well.
First, we need to listen to the voice of the poor. As economic and political power shifts from the US and Europe to the nations of the east and south, and as the shift in power from the G8 to the G20 goes on, it represents a broadening and diffusion of power. The addition of South Africa, Mexico, Brazil and India to the G20, in theory at least, brings the voices of millions of the poorest to the table. While there remain serious questions about the legitimacy of such self-appointed bodies, I suggest that the UK should look to exploit the opportunities of new political and economic configurations to champion a pro-poor discourse in new global interactions, identifying progressive allies and seeking greater inclusion of the voices of the poor.
Secondly, there is inequality. Almost all societies are becoming much more unequal as the world economy expands. Simplistic talk of the rich north and the poor south no longer makes any kind of sense. The majority of people living in poverty today are in middle-income countries such as Brazil and India; it is in such countries that we are also seeing the greatest increase in inequality. As we confront the new age, we should confront also long-standing forms of inequality and discrimination that continue to blight the lives and opportunities of billions.
Thirdly, there is caring for the environment. With the World Bank predicting progress towards more than 3 degrees of global warming on current global policy, levels of climate unpredictability, constraints on water resources and increased extreme weather are inevitable and,
“tilted against many of the world’s poorest regions”.
At the centre of what we do should be an argument for and an insistence upon sustainability, resilience to climate change and fair rights over resources. Those things should underpin our nation’s engagement in global affairs.
Fourthly, we need to pay attention to the effects of global connectivity. That can create new and wonderful opportunities for people all around the world but it can also squeeze cultural diversity, with an individualistic consumer ethic taking the place of traditional collective values. Many of these changes potentially threaten the ability of vulnerable communities to claim their rights while, at the same time, many can be exploited to help in the battle against poverty. Technology is transforming the way we interact, trade, create communities and build political movements. Geography matters less; online access more. We need to pay attention to the serious divide opening up between digital haves and digital have-nots.
All global actors are seeking to adapt to this changing environment but we are very well placed to do so by virtue of our traditions and culture, and the values that underpin them. The continued impact of the UK’s development co-operation will rely on tackling the above challenges and seizing the opportunities presented. Success will depend on building a wide range of partnerships that have the leverage to make a major impact on the scandal of mass poverty in the rich world, as well as in the poor world. Only if we do so will we continue to have that soft power—that moral authority—for which this country is rightly celebrated.
Baroness Morris of Bolton
My Lords, with the fast-moving world of political and economic change in which we live, there is a great need for the United Kingdom’s experience, not least our well developed soft powers, as my noble friend Lord Howell so powerfully observed. Soft power was the subject of an excellent debate in your Lordships’ House last year, led by my footballing friend, the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, and answered by my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford. Then, as today, my noble friend Lord Howell demonstrated why he is such an effective advocate of the role the UK must play in an ever more complex and competitive world. I, too, thank him for all he has done in the service of this House and our country and, in particular, for this important debate today.
It is clearly true, to pick up on the point made by my noble friend Lord Alderdice and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Worcester on size, that as a country, we punch above our weight across a range of diverse areas—from language and education to culture and arts. As has already been mentioned, the roles of the BBC World Service, the British Council and other organisations are rightly credited for the part they play in our international prominence.
This soft power, however, is becoming increasingly hard in its impact. The continuing growth of English as an international language has not only cultural significance but real value for British companies. The standing of British universities in the top rank of worldwide higher education league tables and their excellence in research and teaching have real value that can provide competitive advantage to British companies. I declare an interest as chancellor of the University of Bolton, which is one of the world’s leaders in teaching and research in advanced materials. In fact, if you fly anywhere in the world on any aircraft that has a seat made of cloth, the fire-retardant property of that cloth is the intellectual property of the University of Bolton.
The global popularity of our culture and the arts has a realisable value. British films are now not only critical and artistic successes but worldwide commercial successes as well, as we have seen from the latest James Bond film, “Skyfall”. In another branch of entertainment, another quintessentially British product—“Doctor Who”, which is 50 years old next year—has become a growing commercial success for the BBC. It has been sold around the world and last year topped the American iTunes chart for the most downloaded TV series.
Our heritage, rich countryside, diverse cities and unique visitor attractions, including the one that accommodates your Lordships’ House, are iconic symbols of Britishness that draw in visitors who contribute to a tourist economy worth more than £100 billion a year. In seeking to illustrate the monetary value of these things, some may think I am fulfilling Oscar Wilde’s definition of a cynic. The point I am making, however, is this: the things that make the UK such a great place to live and to visit are also the things that help us strengthen our international role and take advantage of new markets.
I was honoured last month, along with other parliamentarians from across the political divide, to be appointed one of the Prime Minister’s trade envoys. My responsibilities are Jordan, Kuwait and the Palestinian territories—countries with which we have strong links and long-standing friendships but where the changes they are undergoing present great opportunities for British businesses. I am looking forward greatly to working with my noble friends Lord Green and Lord Marland, UKTI and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to help promote the UK and our commercial sector.
I also see it as our job, however, to promote the virtues of trade itself. Promoting trade is a British tradition. As an island nation, our prosperity and global influence were built on commerce and exploration. That prosperity has never been limited just to us. Opening up economic relations benefits both sides of the transaction; many countries have benefitted hugely from opening themselves up to new markets. Free trade also serves as one of the most effective ways to build trust and co-operation between countries and underpins the development of civilised, peaceful relations between them. Since markets require fairness and the rule of law to function properly, the existence of significant trading relationships provides a powerful incentive to root out corruption. The pacifying and benevolent effects of trade have been espoused by many in this Chamber and in the other place over the past two centuries, with the anti-protectionist Richard Cobden among the most prominent. He once observed:
“The progress of freedom depends more upon the maintenance of peace and the spread of commerce and the diffusion of education than upon the labour of Cabinets or Foreign Offices”.
In truth, the efforts of government should advance those aims and in doing so, we can make a lasting difference, securing the benefits we all want to see for British companies while supporting the development of peace and good will with and between our friends overseas.
Lord Judd
I join noble Lords who have paid tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Howell, not only for having introduced this debate so well but for the terrific contribution he has made on international relations throughout his political life. Forty years ago, I was working with him and with young politicians from the United States on facing up to the issues that then faced us in the global context, particularly the fears about Africa and the Middle East. I formed a very high regard for the noble Lord, Lord Howell, which has stayed throughout my political career. There have been big differences between us, irreconcilable differences sometimes, but there has always been respect for his wisdom and his approach.
The noble Lord, Lord Howell, was right to start by challenging us to face up to the realities of change over recent years and the situation that we now face. He is right that one of the biggest challenges is that the centre of economic and political power is increasingly moving to Asia, in particular to south-east Asia and China. That is a terrific challenge which we must meet. He was also right to emphasise, as he always does, interdependence. I always put it that the first reality of life is that we are born into a situation in which we are totally interdependent with people right across the world. As I have said before and will say again, I am convinced that we as a generation of politicians will be judged by history by the success we make of belonging to that international community, contributing to its strength and understanding the challenges of being part of an international community. Neurotic insularity will do us no service whatever. We must engage and we must belong, and by being seen to engage and to belong, we will bring our influence to bear. Of course we want efficiency and cost-effectiveness in all the institutions, not just in Europe, but in the UN and elsewhere, but we bring greatest influence in achieving that if we cannot be questioned in our commitment to international co-operation and in our belonging to those institutions. The trouble is that we too often play to a short-term populist gallery in trying to suggest that somehow we are battling for little England—little “England”, too, very often—against the real awful world out there instead of realising that it is by making a success of international work that we will look to the long-term interests of the British people. I thank the noble Lord for having introduced this theme and I apologise if I have expanded it a little emotionally in a way that he might not have done.
I know the Commonwealth is dear to the heart of the noble Lord, Lord Howell, and it has a part to play. It is a family in the best sense. It has evolved. When it meets, it is usually a meeting of friends, but in this context my noble friend Lord Anderson is right that we have to face up to the fact that the Commonwealth has been overtaken in a lot of the real cut and thrust of making a success of international relations and global security.
I always listen with fascination to the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. He is right to have reminded us of the value of the underlying psychological dimensions of our part in the world. They are crucial. We have to face the fact that when you have been an imperial power, it is difficult to adjust. We have to play the game of influence. It is no good playing a power game. Our game is a game of influence, and that relates to my point about being seen to belong and to engage.
This affects the work of the Foreign Office. I am getting a bit worried that when I go anywhere, one of the first things in an introductory talk from the ambassador or the high commissioner is a long, rather defensive speech about all they are doing on trade. In the economic realities we face, trade is, of course, vital and our missions have a part to play on trade, but in this highly complex world, we should not throw away the baby with the bath water. We need expertise, insight and analysis to understand the situation in which we are operating and advice to inform the quality of our decision-making. Sometimes it may get a bit marginalised in the constant pressure to put trade first. It is not either/or. We must treasure that traditional role of the Foreign Office and make sure that it is nurtured.
I feel strongly that soft diplomacy, as it is sometimes called, is crucial. That is where we cannot emphasise often enough the role of the BBC and its Overseas Service. We must not let that become diluted. When changes take place, I sometime worry. The quality of news in this country is improving because we are getting more international input into ordinary news broadcasts. That is good for British people to understand the issues, but it must not be at the expense of the expertise, depth of knowledge and analysis that used to be in the old Overseas Services. Sometimes what we are beaming to a country with a very small audience may have disproportionate significance because that small audience will be crucial in the future building of that country and its stability and well-being. We have to keep that role of the BBC in mind.
I have time for two more observations. First, in our debates about universities and overseas students, I get exasperated at the way we talk about them in terms of what they mean to the British economy now and in the future. What matters is the quality they bring to the higher education experience. I do not understand how you can have a relevant, world-class university if it is not a thriving, vibrating international community. You need that international mix in the quality of the education that is taking place. That matters in every discipline. We have not been taking that point seriously enough. The other issues are, of course, very important—I declare an interest as someone involved in education—but that essence is the crucial quality.
Finally, as we go into the year ahead, we should all make a resolution that we are going to lead the country in understanding interdependence and in determining that this country is to be second to none in constructive internationalism instead of insularity.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart
My Lords, it is a privilege to follow the noble Lord, Lord Judd, with whose views, not unusually, I find myself in complete agreement. I, too, express admiration and gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Howell, for the work he has done over decades in promoting international communication. His wisdom has assisted this country. I do not entirely agree with him in giving primacy to the Commonwealth in the time we are living in.
My first experience of politics when I was elected to the House of Commons was as the Parliamentary Private Secretary to the last Commonwealth Secretary, Lord Thomson of Monifieth. Consequently, I am much more familiar with Commonwealth countries than I might have been. The late Lord Thomson later became one of our first European Union commissioners. That was not in any sense a demotion. He was a most enlightened man who promoted development within the European Union and saw from the beginning that Britain could play a more effective and powerful international role if we were closely integrated with that body of countries that are not just neighbours but have shared our history through hundreds of years—a history we should not forget.
I know that there is wisdom in my noble friend Lord Alderdice’s view that the public are more aware of the present demands than they are of the history of warfare. I do not dissent from that but we have to recognise that mankind does not change entirely. The political situation may change but the impulse to use force to promote a country’s interests is still a danger. In my humble judgment this country has a global role, which can best be exercised by playing a constructive part in the work of the European Union. That was manifestly missing in the World Trade Organisation discussions at Doha and the climate change discussions in Copenhagen. I believe that we did not act as a union on those two occasions, and as a result we have seen great delay and inadequate responses to these very big challenges.
We also have a second role to promote the values that this country holds and which it has translated into a way of life. In that respect, we should particularly regard our history of adherence to public international law as something of which to be proud. I was somewhat dismayed the other day when the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, would not disclose her view about the public international law situation with respect to a pre-emptive strike against Iran. If we are to expect others to follow the rule of international law, we must animadvert to it in the context of international disputes.
Our other attractive values, mentioned a great deal in this debate, include education, the development of science and technology and our adherence to human rights. I must say again that I find it appalling that there has not been an instinctive positive response to the judgment of the European Court of Human Rights on the right of prisoners to vote in our elections. If prison is to be seen as a reformatory, being instructed in citizenship and the purpose of voting must be helpful to that end.
We have had remarkable cultural achievements, and many in our country have recognised this, in promoting our wide global view of culture. The British Council is probably a more effective organisation in promoting Britain’s interests than those who control immigration. That is something that we should certainly build on. I would like to see the budget of the British Council strengthened and increased.
Our identity is clear, and is not put at risk by being members of European Union. It is now time that Members of Parliament and members of the Government began the task of explaining the crucial importance of the integration of the European Union and why that is not inconsistent with our identity and with playing a global role, and that indeed the two are absolutely tied to each other.
Lord Bilimoria
My Lords, at the outset, I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Howell, as I was not in the Chamber when he started this debate. It is such a pity that he is no longer a Minister because he did such a brilliant job at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and it is the Government’s loss and ours that he is no longer there.
Just over six decades ago Britain had the largest empire the world has ever known. Today, that empire has gone and yet this tiny country of just 60 million people, making up not even 1% of the world’s population, is still one of the 10 largest economies in the world. It still sits at the top table of the world and still holds great influence. All this is despite the dramatic rise over the past three decades of countries such as China, and more recently India as an emerging global economic superpower. There, at the other extreme, we have two countries that together make up one-third of humanity.
Looking ahead, we will not be able to compete with these countries head on. We can only compete on our strengths, many of which are historic. We have amazing institutions in every field, whether it is in the City of London, cultural institutions such as the British Academy and the Royal Society of Arts or the traditions that are part of this nation’s fabric. There are the traditions of our Armed Forces expressed through the esprit de corps—which is amazing—and the traditions of the Royal Family, shown so marvellously in Her Majesty’s Diamond Jubilee this year, and in the traditions of this Parliament and in our very Chamber here, which is the only self-regulating Chamber in the world.
Then there are institutions such as Lloyd’s of London and our great universities, with Oxford and Cambridge being more than 800 years old. The noble Baroness, Lady Morris, spoke about our creative industries. Our design firms are the best. The designer of Apple, the most valuable company in the world, Sir Jonathan Ive, is British. Our law firms are the best of the best, as are our courts and, although only 7% of our children attend them, our private schools are the best in the world. The BBC for all its recent problems is, as the noble Lord, Lord Judd, said, a source of soft power, in particular the World Service.
The noble Lord, Lord Howell, spoke powerfully about the Commonwealth. It is such a huge asset and we are at the centre of it. There is even the possibility of a free trade zone within the Commonwealth, from the tiny islands at one extreme to a 1 billion population country such as India at the other. The Commonwealth has done so much with so little money. Just imagine how much more it could do if it had a proper budget. Can the Minister say that he will encourage this to happen?
The City of London is still the world’s leading financial centre. We still have a flexible and open economy that welcomes foreign investors such as the Tata Group. It is an economy where we will now have a Canadian as the governor of our central bank. Despite the awful cuts that have been made to our Armed Forces, where we temporarily lack aircraft carriers and the number of our troops has fallen to critically low figures, we still have one of the highest levels of defence spending in absolute terms in the world. We talk about soft power but soft power cannot exist without the hard power to back it up.
In tourism, we have one of the most attractive destinations in the world, with London being the greatest of the world’s great cities despite our awful weather, particularly this year. However, it dismays me when we talk about trade. As founding chairman of the UK-India Business Council, I regularly speak to business audiences around the country and I ask them how many of them do business with India. To this day, among hundreds of people, only a few hands go up.
I am delighted to hear that the Government have increased funding to UK Trade & Investment. We need constantly to encourage businesses to look abroad because the potential of emerging markets is phenomenal and we are just scratching the surface. However, while we talk about emerging markets, we must recognise that our principal international partner will be, and always has been, the United States. It always will be one of the most powerful nations in the world and we have stood side by side for more than a century, and that will not change.
Partnering with countries means working together not just on a business level but within our civil services, the Armed Forces carrying out exercises together, and in research and development. I chaired the Cambridge University India Partnership Advisory Board and we are working more closely with India. The UK-India Education and Research Initiative has been so successful, with hundreds of research interactions between the UK and India. We need to encourage this and to do a lot more of it. Importantly, to maintain our influence we must maintain our competitive edge. I do not think that we are investing anywhere near enough in research and development. We invest a fraction of a country such as the United States as a proportion of our GDP.
Most importantly, as a country, we must always be seen to be fair and just. Historically, as a nation, we have never followed the herd. We have always led our own way and done our own thing. Even in Europe, where we are, whatever anyone says, one of the most prominent members of the EU, we sensibly stayed out of the euro. Despite everything that is going on, we are still seen by many businesses around the world to be the gateway to Europe.
Again, importantly, our role in the world will be based on respect and trust. We have to continue to earn that respect among nations today. Despite all our economic woes, we need to be ahead of the game. We need to be best friends and partners to countries such as India, Indonesia, Brazil, South Africa and Turkey, quite apart from our longstanding partners such as the United States, which I have mentioned, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Singapore. These emerging markets cannot switch on in an instant, or even in a few decades, the competitive edge that this country has built up, as well as its institutions, over the centuries.
As the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, said, our foreign policy must be based on the confidence that we can maintain this competitive edge with integrity through mutual trust and respect. In that way, we will be able to bring mutual benefit and security to our economies as countries partner together. To conclude, our foreign policy, our global role and our global influence go hand in hand with our competitiveness. We cannot have one without the other.
Lord Bates
My Lords, it is a privilege to take part in this debate and I join many others in paying tribute to my noble friend Lord Howell for securing it. Many years ago, I had to complete an essay question which was to explain the difference between a politician and a statesman, and to give examples. I often think that had I known the noble Lord at that point, my answer would have been so much better illustrated. Undoubtedly, he is one of our great statesmen and it is a privilege to continue to hear him dispense his wisdom from the Back Benches.
Another thing I learnt from essays was that you are supposed to look at the question before answering it. I note that the noble Lord has been very careful in choosing the title for this debate. He has used the word “new” twice and the word “emerging” once, thereby suggesting that there is a passage from an old order, an old world view, to something new. I very much share the view of my noble friend Lady Morris of Bolton and the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, that in going into that new world we should have great self-confidence and self-belief.
We are very much in a global race, as the Prime Minister illustrated and set out in his speech to the CBI last month. I would contend that we are not so much in a single global race but that we are in a number of global races for key markets and that we are engaging with key powers. In my time today, I shall focus on one of those new markets—China—and will make the argument that we need to engage in some fresh, new thinking and to shift from an old paradigm view of Chinese conduct in the world to a new view. I do so with some trepidation, knowing that one of the foremost authorities on these matters, my noble friend Lord Green, will respond to the debate. I look forward to hearing his response.
The scale of the Chinese miracle has been well rehearsed but it bears repeating for a few moments. First, China has not gone through a period of boom and bust, as some countries have. In fact, it has delivered 30 years of uninterrupted growth, averaging 10% per annum. When people talk about the Chinese miracle perhaps beginning to slow, they are talking about it slowing to 7.5% per annum for the next decade. It is the second largest economy in the world. By the end of this decade, it will be the largest economy in the world.
What is more interesting is what China has used that new wealth for. It has invested in infrastructure. Before 1988, it had no motorways whatever. By 2010, it had 74,000 kilometres of motorway. China has more kilometres of high-speed rail lines than the rest of the world put together. In the three years that it has taken us to debate whether we should have another 200 kilometres of HS2 in this country to be completed by 2026, China has added 8,000 kilometres of high-speed rail lines. Sometimes, we need to have a little sense of humility as to what people are doing and how they are going about it.
Secondly, we should look at what China has done for its people. It has lifted more people out of poverty than any country in history. According to the World Bank, 600 million were lifted out of poverty between 1981 and 2005. A new self-confident middle class is emerging, the numbers of which are open to some debate but roughly settle around the figure of 200 million people. There are 400 million internet users and 700 million mobile phone users in China. The Chinese savings rate is one of the highest in the world at 38%, compared to 7% in this country.
China’s foreign currency reserves dwarf anything in the world at $3 trillion. They are the largest in the world and amount to three times those held by Japan. In that sense, China is keeping the global ship afloat. China has 20% of the world’s population but only 7% of the land mass. Therefore, it is heavily dependent on importing commodities from around the world. That has led it to have a—some would say paranoid but others would say very natural—national interest in developments around the energy-rich waters of the South China Sea. Its defence budget is growing dramatically. It is already the second largest in the world and will overtake the United States in another 20 years.
However, our approach to China has often been characterised by a degree of suspicion and perhaps even a little distrust. When we look at some of the agreements that we have had, such as the transfer of powers over Hong Kong, most people would recognise that those undertakings given in 1997 have largely been honoured and adhered to. Hong Kong retains a distinctive and vibrant economy and a large degree of autonomy. Of course it is right to raise human rights concerns but I would argue that that should be done in proportion.
How do we respond to China? We need to respond by recognising that there is a great market out there. When Wen Jiabao visited this country last year a target was set to increase bilateral trade to $100 billion by 2015. When Wen Jiabao went on to visit Germany, he and Chancellor Merkel announced that they were going to increase their trade to $284 billion. If we are engaged in a global race, let us start racing with our friends in Germany to tap into that market in China. Yes, we are in a global race, but it is one not only with China but also for China, so we need to engage in some fresh thinking.
The current policy document which underlies the UK’s approach to China was published in January 2009 under the previous Government. Perhaps it is time that we looked at that again. When we approach China and try to encourage it to take a new and constructive role as a major global superpower, let us recognise that we need to engage with it not only with a new policy but with a new mindset and, more importantly, with a new relationship.
Lord Parekh
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, for securing this debate. It was really nice to see him shed the constraints of office and reflect creatively and independently on some of the larger issues of the world today. As he rightly pointed out, the international landscape is undergoing profound changes. It is undergoing profound changes at a superficial level in the sense that there are more economic, political and military players than there used to be—China, India, Brazil, possibly Indonesia and Turkey, and a few others. I would suggest that, although this is an important change, it is not a decisive one. A really decisive change is taking place at a different level; not just increasing the number of players in the game of international politics, but the way in which the game is going to be played. In other words, the real change is taking place not simply in terms of how many players there are, but how power is acquired and maintained and what is the nature of that power. I want to say something about it because the subject has been largely neglected.
All over the world there is a very profound change taking place in the sense that people are extremely suspicious of the political class and the way it has dominated and tried to monopolise political life. People want to make their own decisions and to assert themselves. The Arab spring is only a tiny footnote to history; there are lots of things like this, even in China. Through the Communist Party and through independent sources, hundreds of protests are taking place every week in China, with people wanting to assert themselves and questioning the official line on a number of issues. All this seems to indicate a groundswell of enormous, popular, raw political energy, wanting to take control of the world. They do not trust the political class, they are tired of the way in which the political class has made a complete mess of the world around them, they want to form their own opinions and, having formed their opinions, they want to make their impact felt. They have formed these opinions on the basis of a variety of sources, thanks to the internet, thanks to global connectedness, thanks to the fact that they are able to link up with powerful forces all over the world and form a global opinion within a local context. That is a profound change.
This means that if we really want to acquire power, we will have to influence how people think and how their opinions are formed. In other words, political power today does not lie in military weaponry, although that is important in times of crisis. If it were that important, Syria would not have got out of control and Iraq would have been brought under control a long time ago. Economic strength by itself does not take us very far either. I suggest that power is changing in a profound way because, once people begin to want to take control of themselves, power really consists in our ability to shape their thinking.
This is sometimes called soft power. The inventor of soft power, Joseph Nye, is a friend and I have debated this concept with him. I told him that I think it is a hazy concept. Soft power is simply a softer version of hard power and that is how it has sometimes been understood, the assumption being that what military weaponry has obtained, we will now obtain by softer means. Soft power is no longer soft, because once you are able to grip people’s imagination and shape their thinking, your hold is far firmer than military weaponry would give you. I would rather talk in the language of moral authority.
A country is able to shape other people’s thinking if it carries a measure of moral authority in the eyes of the world. Moral authority comes from two sources: the belief on the part of others that this country is forming its views independently; and that it is a country which is worth emulating and admiring. In other words, moral authority comes from intellectual and moral sources and that is what our foreign policy should be aiming at. Unfortunately, if we look at all the documents from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the emphasis is almost entirely on commerce and trade. Important as these are, I do not think that the Foreign Secretary was right to say that he should turn the FCO into “a commercially focused” organisation. I think the Economist rightly called it a form of zealous mercantilism. We should rather be thinking in terms of acquiring the kind of moral authority that I am talking about. We once had it, but we lost it—or at least weakened it—partly because of the second war on Iraq, partly because of the way we behaved in Libya, saying one thing and misrepresenting what the UN resolution was about, and partly because of actions such as abstention in the recent United Nations vote on the Palestinian demand for observer status.
If we really want to acquire moral authority and influence the way the world thinks about us we will need to do a number of things. I want to mention, in the minute I have left, four important points. First, our foreign policy will have to be principled and value driven. I am not talking about an “ethical foreign policy”—we know how we got into trouble—I am talking about a foreign policy which is seen by the world as giving voice to sanity and justice and representing independence and impartiality. Secondly, we need to be more hospitable to students coming from the rest of the world. These are the people who will go back to their country and shape their part of the world. Remember, this is how the United States acquires its power. It is very striking that 73 current and former prime ministers and presidents in the rest of the world were educated in American universities.
Thirdly, we will have to think of the BBC as a central vehicle through which our views are circulated. Although cuts might have been necessary, we need to be careful that it is not required to cut down its audience or its programmes. Finally, we need to play to our strength. We have succeeded in this country in building a fairly cohesive multicultural society. The rest of the world is moving in that direction and we have something to tell it. We appear to be very resentful about our multicultural society. We appear to be carping in our criticism. It is very important that we present a profile to the world such that we are seen as a society at ease with itself. This will mean more senior diplomatic staff drawn from ethnic minorities. As of now, I do not think that this numbers more than 1.5% to 2%. It also means that we should be saying more about how different religious and cultural groups can live together and what lessons can be drawn from our experience.
Lord Dykes
My Lords, it is always a great pleasure to follow the very wise words of the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, and his enlightened expression of the need for countries, particularly those going through very severe periods of austerity, as we are and as are other countries in Europe and elsewhere, to maintain civilised values in their external links with the outside world. It is also a pleasure to follow the equally wise words of my noble friend Lord Bates and his justified idealism about the need for a proper definition of politician and statesman. He did not have time to elaborate but I hope that he will not mind that I mention a rather cynical definition of a politician. Fifty years ago, a former US Defence Secretary, whose name I have forgotten, said to one of his friends, “Listen, honey, I’m a politician. That means that when I’m not kissing babies I’m stealing their lollipops. Never forget it”. I thought that rather harsh working definition of a politician should have been overtaken by events—and indeed that has proved to be the case in certain countries, and in Britain, too, which unlike the United States has a gentler view of the important requirements of a capitalist economy, but a modern, welfare capitalist economy, as the Germans have been so adept in creating, and the French in their own way.
I declare an interest, as I live in France. It does not mean that you have to be emotional and bombastic about your own country. We are all European countries, and we can be proud of every single level of our attachment, down from the individual street to the village and town, the county, zone, region and country. I am intensely patriotic about Britain, but I see plenty of faults here as well, as one does in other countries. But I am even keener that we resume our place as a legitimate and modern member of the European Union. I thank particularly the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, at the beginning of the debate, and the noble Lord, Lord Judd, who also referred to this in very strong terms. There is a need for this country to resume and reattach itself to its political maturity, of which we were very proud for many decades. Why have we become so insecure and immature about our European link, a very precious thing that we negotiated with great pain and difficulty over many years? We took 12 years to get in because of two French vetoes, then two years afterwards the then Labour Government decided that they wanted to renegotiate a substantial portion of the terms. No wonder our colleagues, patient as they are, begin to get very exasperated sometimes with our EU membership, particularly with the antics of what is admittedly still quite a small minority of Conservative MPs in the other place. They are going through a charade, partly because of UKIP but also for other reasons, of attachment to a pretend sovereignty that no longer exists in any country—not even in the United States, in the end, a country that is regarded by some people as being in decline.
I thank warmly the noble Lord, Lord Howell, as others have done, for launching this debate. It is always a great problem when you are talking about the whole world, but he did it very effectively, because he focused quite rightly on a number of things, particularly the Commonwealth. You can sound like one of those terrible travelogue films from the cinemas in the 1950s, which would say at the beginning, “As the sun pulls away from the jetty and the ship sinks in the east, we say goodbye to such and such a territory”. He did not do that; he focused on some of the modern requirements in this country in the sense of the Commonwealth, which is a very important body in every way. It is developing, as someone said, with an inadequate budget—but I hope that that will be changed in future. I appreciate, and have always been glad about, the attachment of the Commonwealth entity into the Foreign Office, as it is a more modern position and configuration for the modern world.
I, too, praise, as the noble Lord, Lord Howell, and others have done, the Foreign Office for the work that it has done over the years. I have always been distressed at the demoralisation of the Foreign Office by what is coming up to 15 years of cutbacks in expenditure, budgets and so on, in two or three phases. Yet another phase is now threatened by the Treasury, which is not so keen so often to cut back its own establishment in physical terms, as it lectures other departments on cutting back theirs. The Foreign Office has put up with this for many years. It does dent morale if people constantly say to diplomats, representing this country overseas with great pride, that they must just think about trade and commerce and nothing else. That is not the job of a diplomat; it is an important component, but it is not the exclusive job of a diplomat, and I think that other noble Lords have alluded to that.
I endorse the views expressed on the role that Britain can play in the Middle East, as a particular example of where we need to exert ourselves more. There was an incipient sign of this recently, but then it became rather gentle again, with the usual obfuscations that personally I find very depressing and unnecessary. This country needs to assert itself, with others, including Germany, which has always had that problem after the nightmare of the Third Reich, in dealing positively vis-à-vis the Palestinians in the search for a proper, genuine and just settlement between Israel and Palestine. It is a most important issue. The present Israeli Government are not a particularly attractive Government—and I am sad to say that, because I am a great admirer of Israel. It is a wonderful country, with many outstanding achievements. But to some extent the geopolitical wisdom of yesteryear, as with the United States, has left it a bit at the moment, and I regret that. Israel needs to understand that it cannot be defiant all the time, so that in the end the Palestinian territory is the only one in the world without civic and voting rights as a genuine entity and country. The UN charter cannot allow that. Therefore, that would mean the end of the Zionist state as we know it. I personally would prefer there to be two states, side by side, including a Zionist state with perhaps not too much religion—because a lot of Israelis are a bit worried about that as well—but an adequate, normal or normative amount. Then they could reach that solution with Palestine that would mean shaking hands and getting on. I was an official observer for the EU Commission in the South African elections, and the day after you saw the scales fall away from people’s eyes as the nonsense of apartheid was demolished and destroyed—although not immediately. It takes time. But it has happened, and it can happen between Israel and Palestine. If any two countries can work together in future, it is those two, and it is up to Netanyahu and Lieberman to see that, I hope with the advice in future of the British Government, who have been a little too hesitant.
If the United States is in decline and ceasing to be a leader of the western world, it must at least in this coming period, working on the global basis that the noble Lord, Lord Howell, has advocated for this country, make sure that it reaches the solution necessary in the Middle East. It would be the greatest tribute that there could be to Barack Obama. He was given the Nobel Peace Prize in advance of this achievement. I hope that that prize was justified.
Lord Hannay of Chiswick
My Lords, I very much welcome today’s debate, and the initiative of the noble Lord, Lord Howell, in securing it, not just because it is the first occasion that the House has had to conduct a wide-ranging discussion of foreign policy issues since the debate on the Address in May but because it offers an opportunity for me to continue a dialogue with the noble Lord about some aspects of the Government’s external policies, which was cut short on that occasion through lack of time—even if his own position has changed, to my regret.
I have to say, and I hope that the noble Lord will forgive me, that I will remain completely baffled as to the significance of the phrase “network world”. In the interim, I have reflected a bit and am reminded of the character in the Molière play who said that he had some difficulty in distinguishing between poetry and prose, but who was assured that prose was what he had been talking all his life. I think that I have been doing networks all my life; it is not something that has been discovered in the past three or four years.
If the debate also reminds us of the lacuna that exists as a result of our not having a foreign affairs committee, or an international affairs committee, in this House, which could periodically report to the House on key issues, it will have served a genuinely useful purpose. Before addressing a few general issues, I just wish to say how deeply I regret the Government’s decision to abstain on the UN resolution giving the Palestinians a modestly enhanced status at the UN. It was the noble Lord, Lord Carrington, who in 1980 first persuaded the European Community, followed some years later by the United States, to back a two-state solution. I believe that we should have followed that logic in voting for the resolution, not have pursued some non-negotiable conditions to give ourselves a quasi-alibi for an abstention. It may have seemed ingenious, but it was certainly not principled.
The general criticism that I would make of the Government’s external policies are that they are a little too narrowly focused on the cultivation of bilateral relationships and are a little too mercantilist in their approach to trade policy. The Foreign Secretary’s actions to strengthen and extend our bilateral diplomatic network and, in particular, to build up our representation in the main emerging powers, is to be applauded. However the objective should not be exclusively to promote British exports and inward investment, but every bit as much to influence the policy decisions of countries whose increasing role in the major multilateral organisations will make them essential partners in shaping a rules-based set of solutions to the global challenges that we all face, whether in trade policy, climate change, development, nuclear disarmament and non-proliferation or in nurturing peace and security more generally. That second part of the narrative often seems to be missing.
Then there is the mantra du jour that we are in a “global race”. There is some sense in this as a means of galvanising the energies of business and of bringing home the fact that we live in a highly competitive world where we have fallen some way behind our main competitors, but it misses out totally the concept of international co-operation which is every bit as important a dimension of a world in which Britain, a middle-ranking power which needs partners and allies to achieve its objectives, can hope to thrive. There is a real risk that the aftershocks from the great financial and economic crisis of 2008 will undermine the gains made since the end of the Cold War in international co-operation, and that the major multilateral organisations such as the UN, the IMF, the WTO, the G20, NATO and the EU will lose political backing, be underresourced and decrease in relevance. If that were to happen, I believe Britain would be one of the main losers. So by all means let us pursue strong bilateral relationships but not at the expense of those multilateral, rules-based organisations in which we have hitherto invested so much effort with some considerable success.
Nothing is more difficult than achieving coherence in a Government’s external policies and in one important sector I believe the UK is currently falling far short of that. I do not imagine anyone will dispute that the higher education sector in this country is a world leader and that over recent years it has been a rapidly growing source of invisible exports of great benefit to our universities and to the country as a whole. Incidentally, it is also a hugely growing source of employment in many parts of this country where that is lacking. The potential for even greater benefit in both ways in the years ahead is there but the Government’s own immigration policies are putting all that at risk. Last week we had the Minister for Immigration at the Home Office, Mr Mark Harper, rejoicing at the latest immigration statistics, which showed a sharp drop in net migration, the lion’s share of which was attributable to a substantial reduction in the number of students coming here. These are not people coming to take jobs but people coming with ready cash to purchase services which our colleges and universities can provide, people who in future years, when their studies are completed, will often become a part of that worldwide network of bilateral contacts which the Government are trying so hard to build up. What on earth is going on? What are the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and the Treasury doing about this truly aberrant state of affairs? I hope that the Minister, whose work in encouraging British exports, both visible and invisible, I very much admire and support will have something to say on this when he replies to the debate.
I have one final point. A debate on this subject would not be complete without a word on the European Union and the European dimension of Britain’s external policies, although we will have an opportunity to discuss that more fully before the Recess. If Britain’s influence in Brussels becomes marginal—even more so if we were to withdraw from the European Union—our influence worldwide in Washington, Beijing, Delhi, Brasilia and elsewhere would suffer too. We should have no illusions about that. Nor would our exports or our inward investment benefit—quite the contrary. It is, after all, not membership of the EU which can explain why our exports to China in recent years have developed so much less buoyantly than those of Germany. So we need to take a more imaginative, constructive approach to that European dimension than we have done recently, and to regard it as an essential and integral part of our external policies, not something that dare not speak its name.
Lord Naseby
My Lords, I concur in congratulating my noble friend on the initiative of holding this debate. I do not want to embarrass him but, frankly, he is the best Foreign Secretary that we never had. I couple that with the role that the noble Lord, Lord Marland, plays as part of the team with the noble Lord, Lord Green. He is probably the most energetic ambassador for British trade and commerce overseas that I have ever witnessed. I saw him in action in Sri Lanka in April and that visit was a whirlwind success. I do not know how many other countries he visited on that occasion but I congratulate him and the team behind him.
Forty-five years ago I wrote a pamphlet for the Bow Group entitled Helping the Exporter. I was one of three authors, all of whom had worked overseas for two or three years prior to writing that pamphlet. It was based on the fact that in the previous 10 years this country’s percentage of world trade had dropped from 20% to 13.5%. That is what prompted us, as young men aged around 30, to take an initiative and try to move the then Government to think creatively about how we should export and how we could improve our exports. We looked particularly at what the Government of the day did and at the agencies that were quasi-government at that time. One of the areas that we looked at was the Plowden committee report, which was basically about part of the structure of the Foreign Office at that time. I venture to suggest to my noble friend Lord Green that he should dust down that report and have another look at its conclusions. I had a look at them and many of them are very valid today, as they were then.
I shall pick out two of the 28 recommendations in the pamphlet. One concerned the Queen’s Award. If I am absolutely frank, I think that it is pretty tired at the moment. Here in this jubilee year we have a wonderful opportunity to relaunch that award, and I venture to suggest that we might look at that creatively. Secondly, the personnel within the Foreign Office that I meet overseas are, frankly, too young in terms of trade and business. They are too inexperienced and do not have the relevant knowledge, depth or contacts. That needs to be looked at.
I turn to the other half of the Motion: the United Kingdom’s new global role. We should be realistic: we do not really have a global role. We do not have enough of a defence facility and we do not have enough stretch in terms of contact on the ground. Therefore, we have to prioritise and select. We have to be brave enough occasionally to say no to certain ventures that we might morally think we should be involved in but do not have the resources to do properly. With regard to the Arab spring, north Africa and that area, we thought that Tunisia had undergone a relatively easy transition. However, demonstrations are now bubbling up, mirroring what is happening elsewhere. The recent murder of the US ambassador in Libya brings into question whether we were right to intervene there. I thought from the beginning that we were not, and I question whether the £1 billion or thereabouts that we spent on that venture was good value for money.
It has taken the Muslim Brotherhood some 84 years to get power in Egypt. Those of us who know Egypt a bit need to reflect on that. Are we confident that we backed the right side in getting rid of Mubarak if we end up with the Muslim Brotherhood? I am not at all sure. Jordan, you could say, is another country, but we are very silent on Jordan. As for Syria, I ask myself why we are backing anyone. It never was our sphere of influence; it was a French one. Why did we not leave it to the French? Who are we really backing? We have formally recognised a group but the stretch of the power base of that group is pretty illusory and does not seem to have too much basis as far as I can see. I ask myself: is the real risk that we are going to change from the Ba’ath Party autocracy to the Islamic jihadist movement? Certainly, we need to reflect on that. That is why two weeks ago I wrote to the Prime Minister, which I rarely do, saying that in my judgment there was absolutely no case for the British military to go in on humanitarian grounds; that is the role of the international Red Cross. Those of us who work in and know those areas should not forget that there is also the Red Crescent, which is as powerful and objective as the Red Cross, and it is a facility for some, but not all, of the UN agencies.
I turn lastly to an area that I know well, south and south-east Asia. I have lived and worked in three of the countries there: India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka. I think that I have visited every other country in that region with the exception of Burma. Today, apart from in India, the infrastructure and influence in that region is Japanese and Chinese—and now we have the Obama vision moving into that part of the world. As the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, said, that part of the world used to be very close to us but, whether we like it or not, over time we have alienated many of the countries there for all sorts of reasons. Even today we sometimes show little understanding of them.
When the then Foreign Secretary, Mr Miliband, went to India in 2009, he drew the allusion that the problem of Mumbai terrorism was associated with Kashmir. Not only was that wrong—in fact it was categorised as a diplomatic disaster—but so were the nuances that went with it. I shall quote from the Independent, which said:
“To make matters worse, he”—
Mr Miliband—
“kept addressing India’s septuagenarian Foreign Minister by his first name and putting his arm around him”.
There are certain traditions and methods of greeting and understanding people in that part of the world that are very different from what we do in the United Kingdom, and it is no credit to any of us if we forget that.
With the Commonwealth conference coming up next September in that part of the world, in Sri Lanka, which is greatly welcomed by the rest of the Commonwealth countries, we should remember Kipling’s epitaph, which states:
“A Fool lies here who tried to hustle the East”.
Lord Soley
In endorsing the comments about the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Howell, to this House, I would simply add that he is a great loss to the Government’s Front Bench. I also thank him for the way that he introduced the debate. However, following his description of the “repositioning”, as he called it, of the world, I have had to reposition my speech very slightly and adjust it accordingly. The essence of what he said is that whereas we used to live in a unipolar world, and prior to that a bipolar world, we now live in a multipolar world—and that will last for a long time. He linked that to the emerging powers and new markets. It is about that issue that I want to say a few words.
When the phrase “British Empire” is used—it has been used only a couple of times today—we then talk, quite rightly and with some pride, about the Commonwealth. However, I sometimes think that the phrase “British Commonwealth” holds up a distorting mirror to Britain’s past. It was of course an empire but it was actually the world’s first power that, because of the industrial revolution, had a global reach. It is that which makes the difference. It was that global reach that resulted in the English language being the world’s premier language. It is that, together with a whole range of other things—including education, rule of law and the BBC; I could name them all—that forms the basis of our influence today. Notwithstanding the insightful comments of the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, about the nature of soft power and how it trips over into hard power, we have to build on what we have here, because it is important.
I want to talk about how we link up these things in relation to the “new markets”, which is the other phrase that the noble Lord, Lord Howell, used in introducing this debate. It is an area in which I have recent personal experience. I had great help from the noble Lord when he was a Minister, and I continue to get such help. I hope that I will continue to get it, not only from his successor in the department but from the Minister who will answer this debate, because it relates to this issue. I felt some time ago that Britain had an enormous contribution to make in terms of soft power. It was not just the BBC, education and so on; it was also that this country is seen as important in terms of the rule of law and good governance.
I must declare an interest because I set up the Good Governance Foundation, a not-for-profit organisation—which is just as well because it does not look like it will make a profit at any time soon—which is designed to use our experience and knowledge with emerging countries, which is the other issue that the noble Lord, Lord Howell, put in the title of his debate. As the result of an argument that I had with the authorities in Abu Dhabi about the treatment of a Palestinian family in 2010, I said to those authorities, “If you do not do something about the rule of law you will have big problems”. To my surprise and, I must say, my pleasure, they asked whether we could help in some way. The result, as some noble Lords know—the noble Lord, Lord Howell, certainly knows of my work there—is probably the first postgraduate course of law at Zayed University in Abu Dhabi. I was over there the other weekend and was introduced to probably the first two female judges in the Middle East. I was suitably impressed by their confidence, ability and training. I have yet to check whether any other Middle Eastern country has a female judge, but I have not heard of any yet.
In May this year I gave the first annual Sheikh Zayed Memorial Lecture on the rule of law. Initially I proposed setting up the annual lectures to promote the idea of the rule of law but I was then also asked to give the lecture, and I did. We hope that, as a result, the late Lord Bingham’s book on the rule of law will be published in Arabic. It is in this sort of area where we are able to do far more. I have now talked to about half a dozen other countries about this sort of approach.
The Minister may know—the noble Lord, Lord Howell, certainly knows, because he has been helpful on this—of the work that I am currently doing with Burma, which is sometimes known as Myanmar. There is an argument within Burma as to which name to use, but I will use Burma for the moment. We are now talking to Burma about similar options on the rule of law. The opportunities are therefore great. We in this House underestimate our strength which we can use in conjunction with such efforts. I am currently trying to arrange for people with suitable experience to go to Burma to help form good governance because, too often, that country receives visits from people from all over the world who will look at what the Burmese need and then go back to their own country and talk to other people there. We need a more in-depth and continuing involvement.
We have in this House people who have run the Civil Service, others who know about the relationship between a Secretary of State for Defence and the armed forces and police force, and, above all, people who know about the rule of law. We have many ex-Lord Chancellors in this House and, indeed, more lawyers than I can count. I hasten to add that I am not a lawyer. However, the depth of the contribution that we can make is far greater than we envisage, and we should have a structure to do it. That is what I am trying to do, particularly in Burma. Zayed University in Abu Dhabi is already involving us in more areas, and I want to continue and expand that process. We rightly talk of our use of soft power, but many of the emerging nations mentioned in the title of the debate also represent a vast opportunity as new markets—because the new market is for good governance. However you dress it up, good governance is a very wide phrase. It is not just the law or the relationship between the armed forces and a government; it is also education, health and a host of other areas where people are willing to learn from what we have done. It is not a case, nor should it be a case, of us telling them what to do. It is a matter of us working with them to deliver that change. I hope the Minister will address that in his comments.
Lord Kerr of Kinlochard
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Howell, for securing this debate. I also congratulate him on the style and stamina that he showed on the Front Bench, sometimes under grave provocation—sometimes from me. I thank him very warmly.
I had intended to say a word about China but my fox has been elegantly shot—it could not have been better shot—by the noble Lord, Lord Bates. I shall therefore say a word about Korea and make one general point.
Korea is the world’s 12th largest economy—larger than the whole of ASEAN. Last year, it grew faster than any other OECD country and it has the greenest growth strategy in the OECD. It is a major inward investor here. It is a country that the Minister knows very well and, as he knows, Korean markets are now more open to British exports than ever, thanks to the free trade agreement that has come into force.
I need to declare an interest. I am the UK president of the UK/Korea Forum for the Future—a role I inherited from the noble Lord, Lord Richard, when I came to this place. I had inveigled him into doing it when I was Permanent Secretary at the Foreign Office, and the moment I arrived here he passed the role to me with all the dexterity of a Welsh fly-half. In that semi-official capacity, I congratulate the Minister on the Opportunity Korea initiative, in connection with which events will take place in Birmingham, Manchester, Edinburgh, London and Bristol in February. Creating greater interest in this country in the Korean market and in Korean culture is an extremely good idea.
In that context, I hope that the Minister can persuade his colleague, the Foreign Secretary, that it is high time that a British Foreign Secretary visited Seoul. The last British Foreign Secretary to visit Seoul was Douglas Hurd—now the noble Lord, Lord Hurd of Westwell—who did so 20 years ago. Frankly, that is not good enough when we are talking about a relationship with a country which takes us as seriously as the Koreans do, which has such a difficult political environment in its immediate neighbourhood and which is such an important market for us.
People in Korea have a real respect and affection for this country. The foundations of that are partly historical, with the valour of British forces 60 years ago, and partly due to recent partnerships, such as the fact that in Brussels the British were the most powerful supporters of the Commission in securing the free trade agreement. The Koreans know that. They would be delighted if we took more interest in them but they would be disillusioned if we took less interest in Brussels and therefore were able to exert less influence on behalf of the interests that we have in common. Therefore, the last point that my noble friend Lord Hannay made today was very important. I know that Koreans are puzzled at our present stance on the European Union.
I was in Australia last week. Friends there also expressed some puzzlement about our stance on Europe but I was not able to provide an explanation. They asked me why, alone with the Czechs, we chose from the outset to play no part in new EU mechanisms to reinforce the very fiscal discipline which the Chancellor was again preaching yesterday, even though no intra-EU fiscal transfers were envisaged. They have noted that this time we alone—without even the Czechs—chose from the outset to stand aloof from proposed arrangements for improved banking supervision in Europe, arguing that they were relevant only for eurozone member states, even though all other non-eurozone member states will be arguing this week in the European Council for arrangements that will permit them to join and even though our self-exclusion is causing real concern in the City. Noble Lords will have noted the important article by Gerry Grimstone, chairman of Standard Life and TheCityUK, in this week’s FT. I quote:
“British practitioners, politicians and officials need to engage more at the European level and to do so at an earlier stage—building alliances, and proactively informing and shaping the EU … agenda. Whether it is on banking union or on particular markets directives, we need to be at the table with an open, constructive and thoughtful approach. The UK voice needs to be firmly but constructively heard”.
That is the authentic voice of the City, unlike what the mayor was telling us this week, although his motives may be slightly different. He may have personal ambitions rather than the ambitions of the City at heart, and I do not want to go into any piffle.
I now want to make a half point and will then make my final point. My half point is about our global role and the fact that rhetoric is no substitute for resources. What one needs for a global diplomacy is diplomatic boots on the ground: local knowledge, linguistic skills, a real understanding of local markets, and sensitivity to national customs and history. It would be an illusion to pretend that one can be global on the cheap, yet I fear that that is what the Foreign Secretary is being asked to do. If the noble Lord, Lord Howell, were ever to bump into the Chancellor of the Exchequer—as I suppose is conceivable—this is a point that he might want to make to him.
My bigger point about our global role is as follows. When I was a young member of the Diplomatic Service, I witnessed daily battles between the advocates of a blue water diplomacy based on the United States and the Commonwealth and the advocates of being at the heart of Europe. By the time I became head of the service, the battle was long over. All had recognised that the dichotomy was false. It was accepted—not least because our American and Commonwealth friends had gently and persistently reminded us—that we best advance the interests that we have in common with them when we exert maximum influence in the EU. The obverse, by the way, is also true. When in Washington, I discovered that we are heard with greater attention there when it is thought likely that we will be able to deliver EU support for deals that we strike with the Americans.
We do not have to choose—indeed, we must not choose—between a blue water and a continental strategy. They are mutually reinforcing and we need both. If we punch above our weight—in the uncharacteristically belligerent words of the noble Lord, Lord Hurd of Westwell—it is not because of any innate diplomatic skills but precisely because our foreign policy is woven from the twin, mutually reinforcing strands of worldwide reach and continental heft. That is why I can give only two cheers for talk of a new global role. It will deliver among emerging powers and new markets only if they perceive that we are at the heart of all key Brussels debates, building alliances in support of common, and Commonwealth interests, and that we are set to remain their natural influential and permanent point of entry into the 500 million-strong EU market. If we lose influence in Europe, we shall find it hard not to lose influence with them; and if we lose interest in Europe, we may find that they lose interest in us.
Lord Selsdon
My Lords, I have always had great respect for my noble friend Lord Howell because he was head boy at my prep school, where he exercised a certain amount of soft power when we stepped out of line, as the noble Lord, Lord Fellowes, whom I see in his seat, may well remember. Apart from that, as I have listened to him, he has taught me many things over time. He has a quiet approach, behind which lies greater knowledge than I could ever wish to have.
In preparation for speaking to your Lordships today, I have taken advantage of my position as a member of the Information Committee by asking the Library to produce a really good note on this debate, and it has done so. If your Lordships are going home for the weekend and cannot find a suitable newspaper, the report that it has provided is quite remarkable, although I shall not quote from it today.
I was always in trade and I sat below the salt, as I have pointed out. I love the Pink Book and I love the balance of payments. I look at the £100 billion deficit that we have on visibles and at the fact that with every country of the EU we have a deficit that grows and grows. We have a surplus of £6 billion or so with the United States and a surplus with Ireland, much of which is in trans-shipments. Therefore, in visible trade we are failing dismally, whereas in invisible trade or services there is a balance of about £200 billion on each side. However, it is our role in the world that we need to think about.
I was brought up in the Navy as a navigator. I was very junior and therefore I always had the middle watch. I would look at the stars and try to study and learn. I found that as you look at the world, you ask, “What is it?”. I think of it geographically. One of my heroes is Harrison, with his connection to chronometers, Greenwich, 0 degrees and the centre of the Earth. With a globe, it is quite difficult to look laterally, so you need Mr Mercator, who produced the Mercator projection and the flat chart, so wherever I have been in all my time dealing with trade, I have put the United Kingdom right in the middle and looked to the left or the right.
Some 70% of the earth is water. Is that blue-water policy? The remaining 30% is land. What has this got to do with trade? Well, our trade was always maritime and 20% of all vessels floating on the surface of the earth have a Commonwealth flag. Everyone these days is nervous about piracy but the Navy will say that 80% of all our trade comes by sea. These statistics may not seem relevant but they have a relevance to me. It is all about the water. Take the economic exclusion zones, where each territory has a 200-mile limit around it. That makes the UK pretty big. In fact, with the Commonwealth it is enormous—36 million square kilometres. That constitutes more of the sea than the area round the whole of the United States, the rest of our NATO allies and the next biggest zone, France.
Does that matter, though? Looking over land and sea, we see natural, or God-given, resources and we forget that most of our own development involved the exploitation, if that is not an unacceptable word, of those natural resources through fishing, mining and agriculture. The Sudan was to be the bread basket of the Middle East and still could be. It is in this field of soft power and knowledge that the United Kingdom can play a great role. I think of the term “common wealth” not so much politically but as describing the combined natural resources of these countries and any skills that they may have which can be applied elsewhere—for example, the mining skills of Australia and the fishing skills of some of the smaller territories. Look at how the world has begun to become global in thought and concerned about energy, power and natural resources.
I have always been a great friend of the Commonwealth. One of the things that I was made to do in earlier days was to be able to recognise the flags of the world. The only value that has given me is as secretary and treasurer of the House of Lords Yacht Club, which of course carries a certain influence. Your Lordships will be aware that every vessel floating on the face of this earth that has a British flag has the right to the protection of Her Majesty’s plenipotentiaries—ambassadors’ ships or whatever they may be. We are a maritime nation; we are also British.
I have a feeling that the debate today will have done a bit of good, but I now turn to the noble Lord, Lord Green. After the last debate I wrote him a nice letter and gave him the history of the Board of Trade, which I had rewritten. He did not reply because he was busy on his travels and his footfall was extending everywhere from Everest down to the Antarctic, but his officials swiftly rang me up and said, “What about the other three volumes?”. I said, “Could we get rid of this word ‘BIS’, which is what my dog does?”—although I must not mention dogs’ business. Anyway, I got no reply. Then I thought I would go on in the same vein and say, “Let us look at the priorities”. I thought I would see if I could have soft power.
I was not going to mention this but I am obliged to because I have to declare an interest. I have pointed out before to your Lordships rather light-heartedly that if no one else would do it, I would launch my own satellites for surveillance. I have done that twice and declared it in the House. The company has now been formed. It is a limited company and I am told that I have to point out that I am the sole director. It is called Evening Star; it has the greatest satellite technology the world has ever seen; and it was all started by the university of the city where my noble friend Lord Howell was a Member of Parliament.
Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Howell, on the timeliness of this debate. Yesterday’s Autumn Statement sets a powerful context for it. There is no question that we have to develop a strategy for growth for the short term in the light of disappointing economic prospects, but the longer-term challenges are far more profound, as the wise and comprehensive introduction to this debate by noble Lord, Lord Howell, underlined.
In a recent speech, referred to earlier by the right reverend prelate the Bishop of Worcester, Jeremy Brown MP talked about the revolution taking place in the world order and of the scale of the task facing the UK if we are to preserve anything like our current level of influence in the world. I am grateful to the Library for drawing this speech to my attention. It had several interesting themes and I enjoyed it. He pointed out that we have a very strong position on which to build. Our history of openness and the strength of our cultural, diplomatic and educational ties go towards giving us a great advantage in emerging economies. But he also pointed out the dangers of complacency. Just because the UK has been in the lead in the past two revolutions—the industrial and the information revolutions—that is no reason to assume we will remain in the forefront of the next. He said:
“Britain needs a big wake up call. We have no pre-ordained right to be wealthier, more successful and more influential than other countries. We earned that status in the past through invention, adventure and enterprise, and we need to earn it again for the future”.
In describing this competitive advantage, he said,
“No part of our Government or public life should be exempt from this national task”.
I will restrict my comments to one issue that I see as a real competitive advantage. We are a major force in the provision of international higher education. I declare an interest as a member of the council of UCL. The Government should be congratulated on identifying higher education as a key strand within its industrial strategy. Doing so recognises that universities play an increasingly important role in the UK’s export success. This role is both direct and indirect. In direct terms, as this House is well aware, universities earn the UK £8 billion a year as a result of their recruitment of EU and non-EU students and the number of globally mobile students is growing rapidly, so projections suggest the UK’s export earnings in this sphere could rise to £17 billion by 2025.
But universities also support other aspects of UK international trade. Their international character contributes to the education of UK-domiciled students who have the opportunity to learn alongside students from the countries which will, in future, be of the greatest economic importance to the UK. International graduates clearly make an important contribution to UK business, through language skills and contacts as well as their professional competencies. Our own Science and Technology Committee, chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Willis, has drawn attention to the importance of international students in STEM disciplines, but it is important to point out that the links we are building are important across the whole range of subjects.
The creative industries are one of the sectors of the economy where we have the strongest potential for future growth. Our cultural and creative output is one of the great draws for talent to this county—one of the reasons good people will move here to work, and therefore one of the reasons major multinational companies will locate here. It is likely to be the foundation of many of our export successes in the future. I think there is an argument that our strength in these areas flows from our inter-connectedness, our openness to new influences and ideas, the exchange of cultures and histories which takes place in all our major cities, and our intellectual culture of challenge and criticism, which is not innate in all cultures. So I would argue that, although there may be particular issues about our dependence on international postgraduates in certain STEM disciplines to maintain the viability of these areas, there is no doubt that we should look to encourage the international character of all our higher education. This will be obvious to those in this House who have been involved in international diplomacy, and I warmly endorse the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, in this respect.
As others have said, the UK occupies an enviable position in terms of its soft power. An annual survey recently published by Monocle magazine put the UK first, ahead of the US, based on a methodology which includes the UK’s attractiveness to business. The international links our universities help us to build are, I believe, critical to our future success in emerging markets where we have traditionally performed poorly. It is not surprising, then, that a couple of weeks ago CBI supremo John Cridland joined a growing chorus of business leaders in saying that Britain was losing a massive business opportunity with a policy that was turning away the brightest foreign students. Four Select Committees have recommended that the Government change their policy on student visas. The noble Lord, Lord Hannay, is also leading an inquiry which has touched on this issue. All the serious newspapers have supported the call for international students to be removed from the Government's net migration target.
The Prime Minister has said:
“We must support all sectors of the economy where we have a comparative advantage”.
I believe that the Government, in many ways, have done that in respect of higher education, except, that is, in their immigration policy. Here, there is a fundamental inconsistency between the Government's desire for short-term and long-term economic growth, and a policy that few outside the Home Office support.
In conclusion, I ask the Minister what steps he is taking to advance the cause of international students in his discussions with colleagues. Will he personally ask the Prime Minister, on behalf of the many of us in this House who feel strongly on this issue, to reconsider their policy on net migration to exclude explicitly international university students and support growth in this hugely important area?
Lord Williams of Baglan
My Lords, like others, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Howell, for his initiative in calling this debate. I also pay tribute to his contribution to discussions on international affairs in this House, in the House of Commons and in other institutions over many years. Just over a month ago, we were together at one such institution—Wilton Park, in Sussex—for a conference looking at the enormous changes now taking place in Burma. One thing that we discussed, and that I hope we can see in the future, was that Burma might take its place in the Commonwealth. After all, it is one of only two former British colonies—I think the other is South Yemen or Aden—which did not join the Commonwealth on its independence.
The noble Lord, Lord Howell, spoke of the reform of the EU. I think we all wish to see a more efficient and modernised EU, but I caution that we need to take care. Many foreign companies from the United States, Japan, China, Korea and India have invested in the United Kingdom because they see the UK as one of the most liberal countries in Europe and as a gateway to Europe. We can ill afford to lose their investments, economically and politically. We also need to take care in talking about reform of the EU in the wider sense of reform of international institutions. This country has a great stake in the United Nations, in the IMF and in the World Bank. After all, we are one of only five countries in the world with a permanent seat on the Security Council, despite the fact that we are a nation of 60 million souls, whereas India is a country of more than 1 billion. Talk of reform needs to be taken forward with great caution as regards discussion of international institutions.
To my mind, the heart of change with regard to global affairs lies very much with the rise of Asia, China, Japan, Korea, India and Indonesia, whose president, Bambang Susilo Yudhoyono, was here as a state guest only a month ago. We have to recognise these realities and think whether we would do better to deal with them in the EU or decoupled from the EU. President Obama has made it clear where he thinks the United States’ future direction should be. Just over a year ago, he spoke of the US’s pivot towards Asia and we need to be mindful of endeavouring to intensify further our relations with such an important part of the globe. If the US saw a UK decoupled from the EU, and France and Germany more dominant in the EU, I believe that that would accelerate US involvement and commitment to Asia at the expense of its longstanding commitment towards Europe.
In the debate, much talk has been made of soft and moral power, concepts with which I always feel a little uncomfortable. However, there is no doubt that such things have been critical over the years, over the decades and perhaps over the centuries to Britain's international role. Here I declare an interest as a trustee of the BBC and as a trustee responsible for the World Service. I appreciate the concerns expressed in the debate about the World Service. Like the rest of the BBC and like all British institutions, the World Service has suffered from diminished budgets in recent years but I can assure noble Lords—
Baroness Northover
I apologise for interrupting the noble Lord but I would like to remind him that those who are given permission to speak in the gap have, at most, four minutes, so he might wish to conclude his speech.
Lord Williams of Baglan
I can conclude by assuring noble Lords of the robust and rude health of the World Service. We broadcast in an array of languages, from Azeri and Burmese to Persian and Uzbek. In all those countries we still have an impact and a reach that is much greater than anyone else.
Lord Liddle
My Lords, in speaking for the Opposition in response to the debate, it is a pleasure to welcome the noble Lord, Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint, to the Dispatch Box for one of his relatively rare appearances here. I do not say that in any spirit of criticism; all sides of the House appreciate the huge amount of work that the noble Lord does on behalf of UK trade promotion around the world. He brings to mind a conversation I had with Chris Patten, as he was then, when he was in Brussels. I asked him what life was like as a European Commissioner and he said, “I spend all my life expensively circulating the globe”. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Green, does a lot of circulating but I hope that, in the age of austerity, he does not do it too expensively, although I am confident that he does it productively. It is good to welcome him to the debate.
I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Howell, for introducing the debate. I will not join in the obituaries because there is plenty of life left in the noble Lord yet. However, I regret that he is no longer on the Front Bench. As a new boy to this place, I found him one of the most reflective of our Ministers, who always tried to deal very conscientiously and carefully with points made to him. In that sense, he is a loss.
I agreed with the vast majority of what the noble Lord said in his introduction. He told us about the great transformation in the world, which the noble Lord, Lord Bates, illustrated very well in his speech when he spoke about China and its huge pace of transformation, which is something that we all neglect. I agree with the noble Lord that we should make the most of our networks. I am rather more with the noble Lord, Lord Howell, than I am with the noble Lord, Lord Hannay; I think that networks matter in this world, and the UK is fortunate and well positioned in that. I only wish that the Government paid more attention to the higher education network, about which the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, spoke, because it is key to our future. I also agree with him about the chambers of commerce, as recommended in the excellent Heseltine review. I agree that the Lords should do more in international affairs; I would love the Lords to have a proper foreign affairs or international committee.
The points that he made about the Middle East and energy are very valid. I also agree about the strengthening of Commonwealth ties. I support what my noble friends Lord Judd and Lord Anderson, and the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, have said. I think that the soft-power ties of the Commonwealth are very important but that it will not act as one as a political and diplomatic force—at least, I do not see that happening very much—still less as a single economic unit. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, was not talking about going back to a world of imperial preference but I see very little prospect of a kind of free trade arrangement within the Commonwealth. The interesting thing about the Commonwealth is the way in which its economic interests have moved away from those of the United Kingdom. One of the most striking things about the emerging world is the growth of south/south trade, as opposed to south/north, between Commonwealth countries.
The fundamentals of what the noble Lord, Lord Howell, said, were right. Trade with the emerging world is crucial to our success in what the Prime Minister and Chancellor rather irritatingly refer to as the “global race”. However, the danger in such talk is that we convince ourselves that there is some great choice to be made between the rest of the world and Europe. As my noble friend Lord Anderson said, it is not a case of either/or—and as the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, said, it is not a case of a blue-water strategy or a continental one. There was a lot of hullabaloo recently about the fact that for the first time we were trading more with the rest of the world than with the European single market. That is a perfectly natural development, given the pace of growth in the rest of the world. It should not become a political point.
Membership of the single market remains crucial to our ability to compete with the rest of the world because of its size, its proximity and its relative stability. It is highly integrated. The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, and I were at a dinner last night where a Foreign Office official made the very good point on the subject of exports to China that France includes Airbus exports in its figures but 17% of each Airbus is made in the UK. We benefit from our partners’ success as well as our own.
Size matters. Being part of the EU single market gives us clout. On trade with China we worry about intellectual property challenges or the dumping of solar panels, but we try to secure fair competition and open up markets. Having that clout behind us is much better than being the United Kingdom on our own because—I think that I am right in saying this—the UK is smaller than the smallest Chinese province.
Europe matters a lot—and it matters in another sense. When the rest of the world thinks about us, it thinks about us not as Britain but as part of Europe. It thinks of Europe as an entity in the world. Britain has great strengths of its own—many noble Lords talked about them—such as the BBC, the World Service and the British Council. However, Europe, too, has strengths in this emerging world. It is regarded highly for its culture, civilisation, science and engineering. The European model is greatly respected as one in which we have achieved democracy and the rule of law, and a model of capitalism that combines innovation and dynamism with social justice. The European model is a strength for us, and in this multipolar world it will matter even more.
Lord Liddle
The question about our competitiveness applies not just to Europe but to the whole world. The House will debate later the excellent report of the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, which addresses these issues. The problem is not with Europe but with UK competitiveness.
In the new world, Europe matters more, not less. Trade policy matters. There is a very ambitious EU trade agenda, as well as a transatlantic agenda and an agenda for trade with the Mercosur countries, with India and now with Japan. I would like to hear from the Minister about these possibilities. There seems to be a tremendous route to opening up more growth potential.
If we want to be an effective force, we have to put more emphasis on our European commitment. We should look at how the Chinese are buying up Africa; at how Europe has been ineffective in dealing with Russia on energy questions; at how as a continent we do not seem to be taking advantage of the opportunities of the Arab spring. Together, the European Union could do so much in these areas that it is not doing.
The biggest risk that this country faces is that we give in to the pressures for a pared-down Europe—the kind of pressures that Boris Johnson talked about this week—and end up sleepwalking towards our exit from the European Union when it is our membership of the EU that will be our strength in this emerging world.
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford for initiating an extremely important debate that has attracted a great deal of interest. My sense is that we have covered an enormously broad range of issues. I assure the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, that although I travel a lot around the world, I hope I travel economically. I turn right, not left when I get on a plane. I do not know what the travel policy is in Brussels.
Many issues have been raised. I hope noble Lords will appreciate that if I do not succeed in responding to every one of them, I will write in respect of the issues that I do not cover. I start with the point laid out by my noble friend Lord Howell that we are in a new era. The context is worth rehearsing briefly. One could argue that there have been only two periods in human history when there was a single global superpower. One was between 1815 and 1871; the other was between 1989 and about now. We are entering a phase where there is no longer one global superpower —or indeed two—but a series of actors on the world stage.
We are also moving out of a period of history that was unusual in the wider context of human experience. For most of human history, a country’s share of global output roughly equalled its share of the world’s population. In 1800 the second largest and largest economies were those of China and India. We are moving towards a situation where that sort of balance of economic output on the world stage will be true again. We all know what happened in the mean time. The industrial revolution enabled Britain, then other European countries, then America and—after the war—Japan to move ahead and take up a far larger share of world output than their populations would support in terms of their share of the world market. That time is now receding and we have to get used to a position in the world where a number of actors on the world stage are competing with us. In that sense there is indeed a global race.
Over the past 20 years or so we have seen the opening up of China, with the extraordinary consequences that my noble friend Lord Bates sketched out for us, and substantial reform in India. It does not always seem that India’s economy is very open, but the reforms introduced in 1992 by the present Prime Minister launched it on what is now, by its earlier standards, a significant growth path. We have also seen the collapse of the Soviet Union. These three major changes brought some 3 billion people into open markets and more into the financial and economic mainstream of the world. That has now spread through other continents as well. We have seen the emergence of powerful economies in Latin America, the Middle East of course, as the supplier of hydrocarbons to so many of those emerging powers, and now Africa. It is worth reminding ourselves that six of the 10 fastest growing economies in the world over the past five years are African. Ghana, Nigeria, Ethiopia and Mozambique are all growing at more than 8% a year.
The G20 is a key sign of this change. Global institutions are evolving in response. The G7/G8 has a role to play, but its central role in determining the economic issues of importance to the world as a whole has essentially now been taken over by the G20, which is a much better balanced grouping of nations to reflect the state of the world’s economy in the 21st century. This reflects the macroeconomic reality of today, which is that the global centre of gravity has shifted from west to east and from north to south, and that change is irrevocable.
The growth performance of China is remarkable. The numbers are extraordinary: anything times 1.3 billion looks like a very large number. It can be compared to the performance of Japan in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s. If we look at Japanese growth rates at that time, they were not dissimilar to the extraordinary performance that we have seen in China in the past 20 years. That tells us that as countries go through the process of urbanisation, growth rates take off at a remarkable rate. This is a reminder that this transformation is only halfway through, or thereabouts. China's level of urbanisation now is at about 50%. India's is at about 30%. It will probably move up in both cases to something like 80% over the next generation.
The year 2008 marked the point at which more than half the world's population lived in cities. By 2050, that will be at least three-quarters, maybe 80%. Never before have the two largest nations of the world been urbanising at the same time and at such a pace.
All of this poses substantial challenges for us in this relatively small country. I am not sure whether we are indeed smaller than all the provinces in China, but I am sure that we are smaller than most of them. I am not sure whether “punch above our weight” is the right phrase, but at the moment we certainly have a larger share of output than our population would support. We are at about 3% to 3.5% of world output and our population is slightly less than 1% of world output. We must reconcile ourselves to the inevitable implications of that for market share over time.
We also face many other challenges, which indeed the world faces collectively. The implications of all the development that we have been referring to and the urbanisation that I have alluded to for such matters as climate change, environmental impact and claims on water resources, food and energy are all profound. Greater prosperity and a burgeoning middle class in so many of these countries do not translate straightforwardly into greater peace and harmony on the world stage.
However, this rebalancing neither can nor should be reversed. We must recognise that in the energy markets of the world we will be competing for sources of energy that are reliable, affordable and sustainable. We will have as a country to mobilise significant investment to deliver energy to the economy and to our consumers. We will have to play our part in ensuring that the world’s institutions of governance evolve in a way that makes sense in this new era that we have been talking about. But I want to focus most of my remarks on the direct commercial challenge for the UK. I want to persuade the House that I see the commercial challenge as extremely important to us, but as one that goes inevitably and inextricably with a positive cultural engagement.
I begin with the raw matter of trade. We have had some rather disappointing statistics this morning on the trade account for last month. Overall, the Office for Budget Responsibility report yesterday showed that trade was a drag on growth in the first three quarters of this year. This is a disappointment to us and a reminder of how far we have to go. What is absolutely clear is that, as we work to rebalance our economy, trade has to play a central role. It is not in my view a matter of mercantilism: it is a matter of understanding where growth will come from on a sustainable basis in this economy.
We must engage effectively with the international markets if we are to pay our way in the 21st century and find sustainable growth. That growth has to be based, as the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, reminded us very importantly, on competitiveness. We have a lot of work to do on that and I believe that trade itself is an important driver of competitiveness. There is ample evidence that particularly smaller companies that get into the international markets become not marginally but quite significantly more efficient, and quite quickly too. The more that we are successful in engaging more companies in the international markets, the more we will strengthen the backbone of our own economy.
We should recognise the importance of the European Union. A number of noble Lords drew attention to the importance of the single market. It is an affluent market of 500 million people. It may not be growing significantly at the moment, but half of our exports go to the European Union. We need to remind ourselves that, if you look at incremental import demand over the next few years, Europe will produce as much incremental demand as China. I could put that point around the other way of course: China will produce as much incremental demand as will Europe over the next few years. The real point is that, as a number noble Lords stressed, this is not an either/or issue between the EU and the rest of the world or between the EU and the Commonwealth. This has to be both/and. We cannot afford to turn our backs on any of the important markets, whether the rich ones on our doorstep across the channel or the Atlantic, or the fast-growing ones further afield in Asia, the Middle East, Africa and Latin America.
We need to recognise that the emerging markets will be the main drivers of growth for the next generation. This is not a flash in the pan. People talk about the slowing down of some of the key emerging markets in the past year or so, in Brazil, India and China. But, first, the slowdown is clearly relative. Slowing down to 7.5% in the case of China is a growth rate that anyone in Europe would rejoice to have. Secondly, we should certainly not see this as an implosion. The best central forecast is that they will continue to grow significantly for the next generation because there is quite a long way to go in the transformation, urbanisation and social transformation underway there.
This is important to us for all sorts of reasons. One is that their growth paths will not be automatic. It is very clear that as these countries grow and as their middle classes develop in number and spending power, we discover that they want the same things that everyone else wants. They want air conditioners, fridges and mopeds first and then cars, fashion, overseas travel and good healthcare. The opportunities from the emergence of these countries with significant purchasing power are tremendous for international suppliers. The opportunities are there for Britain as they are there for all our obvious competitors.
As I mentioned, in terms of our own economic needs, we have no choice but to engage internationally and to do so competitively and energetically. That is why we set a challenge last year of getting 100,000 more companies into the international markets over the next few years and focusing more on the non-traditional markets for British business. The fact is that our current market share in these newer markets is disappointing. We have lost market share in virtually all of them. We have not merely lost market share to newer competitors such as China and Korea; we have lost market share to our more obvious competitors just across the Channel in the shape of Germany, France and Italy.
Specifically, we have a minimal market share in many of the 19 priority emerging markets for UK Trade and Investment—that is to say less than 2% in 12 of them. We are behind Germany, France and Italy in 12 of them and we have lost market share in 18 out of the 19. We have work to do in order to encourage and support British business into these markets.
The good news is that we have the underlying capability. I think I have mentioned this to the House before, but I repeat it because I go on rediscovering it. I travel not only around the world but around this country. In every region of the country and in every sector of the economy, you find businesses of all shapes and sizes—traditional and high-tech, old and new—that are taking on the world. They are aggressive, entrepreneurial, dynamic, growing and engaging internationally. The second piece of good news is that our brand, if I can use that phrase, stands in very high regard around the world, not only for our reputation for integrity in the way business is done—the Bribery Act is widely admired—but for the quality of the products and services that we offer. The boost provided by the Olympics to that brand is of incalculable value.
The Government need to do the best possible job of promoting this endeavour. We need to do it through active work on trade liberalisation, which takes me directly to the very constructive engagement with the Trade Commissioner in Brussels, as the Commission has the competence for the negotiation of free trade agreements. As the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, mentioned, the agreement to start discussions with Japan is important. We should not be naive about how smoothly those discussions will go or how quickly we will reach a conclusion but the obvious point is that a serious opening up of the Japanese markets, not merely in terms of tariff barriers but, almost more importantly, of non-tariff barriers, will have a huge and healthy impact on Europe as a whole and on the UK in particular. The US and the EU pushing forward next year, if we can, on the negotiation of a transatlantic partnership will be even more significant. There is a large agenda, quite apart from the existing work on an Indian free trade agreement and with Canada, Singapore and now Morocco. In terms of looking at the impact, and showcasing, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, for drawing attention to the importance of the Korean free trade agreement.
We will keep at this. The importance of the trade agenda in Brussels cannot be overestimated; nor, as an aside, can the importance of the single market. One of the things that we have to achieve as a major member of the European Union is a full-blooded implementation of the single market, and there is clearly work to be done on that. Out of 12 dossiers currently on the table under the Single Market Act I, only one has been fully implemented. In particular, with the services directive, digital broadband and the digital single market, there is a huge terrain of activity that will bring significant benefits to the whole of the European Union, including Britain.
However, trade liberalisation, crucial though it is, is only one prong of any meaningful strategy. Trade promotion, through UK Trade & Investment, UK Export Finance and posts around the world, is critical. I note that some noble Lords have reminded us not to throw the baby out with the bathwater and that our posts have other roles to play, but I believe that nothing they do is more important than promoting British commerce in their respective markets. We need to ensure that they are trained and equipped with the right kind of people, with energy, competence and experience. We will continue to work on that.
Furthermore, trade is a major driver of economic development. Turning to the comments of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Worcester, I am pleased to be able to report that we have reaffirmed the 0.7% of GNP target and indeed have committed ourselves to getting there next year—the first G8 country to do so. Within the commitment on development finance, I draw particular attention to trade facilitation, in which we now invest about £1 billion a year. The gains from effective trade facilitation, particularly in the continent of Africa, will be very significant indeed to the Africans—which is of course a great good in its own right—but also have resonances for opportunities for British businesses. We will continue to be very active in trade facilitation through the work of the Department for International Development.
There is one other crucial point. However well the Government do trade facilitation and trade promotion work among British businesses, and however well we prosecute the case in Brussels for open trading relationships between the EU and the rest of the world, it is very important that there is lively, active support for businesses both here and overseas. The House will be having a short debate later, introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, on his report. I am working with chambers of commerce around the international markets to upgrade the support that we provide for businesses, particularly incoming smaller businesses into these markets. There is also a good deal of work to do domestically. As we would all recognise, the quality of business support for business is very varied around the country, and is certainly very varied around the world. This is a major agenda item for the next number of months.
Finally—I apologise that I am coming under some time pressure—I stress the importance not only of trade but, in that context also, of what we have variously called moral authority or soft power. A number of noble Lords have drawn attention in particular to the importance of education. I strongly believe in the importance of education, both as a significant earner in its own right but, equally importantly, as an indirect supporter of British relationships for generations. If you get that right, at the right stage of people’s lives, you build relationships that last a lifetime with people who become the leaders in their societies. We have a great story to tell in many respects with strong universities—and a strong higher education sector in general—many of which are actively engaging around the world. I note, as one example, the work of the Open University in Vietnam and also fully endorse the comments made by more than one noble Lord about the importance to British students of the internationalisation of our domestic higher education offering. That is a strength that is very hard to put any meaningful value on.
The whole House will be aware that student visas are part of a wider issue where there is a difficult circle to square. We have a commitment to reduce the amount of net migration into the country but we want to remain open for business. I believe we have a good story to tell on inter-company transfers and entrepreneurial visas. It is worth noting that there is no limit on student visas for those that pass the tests, including the English-language test, and where the institution is a sponsoring institution. We are looking at the way student numbers, and ins and outs, are monitored. If I may, I will write to noble Lords with more details on that.
I stress that we have a warm welcome around the world. Soft power is very much about education, the role of the British Council and the role of the BBC. It is also about well recognised brands and is, as I mentioned earlier, about the Olympics. Which other country in the world could have made fun of itself, in a gentle way, on the opening night ceremony by having Rowan Atkinson send up “Chariots of Fire” and by having Her Majesty the Queen accompanied into the Olympic Stadium by James Bond? I can promise the House that this was noted and appreciated all around the world. We have a great brand to build on but have a lot of work to do. Finally, I thank my noble friend Lord Howell for such an important and interesting debate.
Lord Howell of Guildford
My Lords, it remains for me to thank your Lordships for your kind remarks and my noble friend Lord Green for his excellent and realistic summing up. We have had one Kipling quotation so I will just end with another:
“Let us admit it fairly, as a business people should”,
that over the past five years of financial crisis,
“We have had no end of a lesson”.
Let us hope that over the next few years,
“it will do us no end of good”.
Ugandan Asians
(12 years ago)
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Lord Popat
That this House takes note of the contribution made by the Ugandan Asian community in the United Kingdom on the occasion of the 40th anniversary of their expulsion from Uganda.
Lord Popat
My Lords, it is an honour and a privilege to move the Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper. This debate means a great deal to me and my fellow Ugandan Asians, and I am very grateful to the powers that be for granting government time for this debate.
In 1997, on the 25th anniversary of the expulsion, the great businessman Manubhai Madhvani—sadly now departed—said of the Ugandan Asians:
“We came here 25 years ago full of anxiety to an unknown land. The British people extended a welcoming hand enabling us to make this country our home. Very few people tend to say thank you. We intend to be different”.
This debate gives me a chance, on behalf of so many, to say thank you.
This story begins long before the expulsion in 1972. Indians started moving to east Africa in large numbers in the 18th and 19th centuries to build railways on behalf of the British, and others followed. Some of them became very successful entrepreneurs and established themselves among the business elite. One company alone, the Madhvani Group, accounted for 12% of Uganda’s national output, and many other firms excelled. Uganda was granted independence in 1962, and the Ugandan Asians set about working with the Government to build the economy further, including constructing schools and hospitals. Yet, as we all know, things did not progress smoothly.
I remember the rise of Idi Amin particularly well. On 25 January 1971, I was at Entebbe International Airport as my sister was due to travel to Britain for her studies. At the stroke of midnight, confusion spread as the army moved in and seized control of the airport. The flight was cancelled, and at three in the morning we were asked to vacate the airport. The 21-mile journey from Entebbe to Kampala was the longest of my life. The radio told us of the coup, and I will never forget the harrowing sight of bodies scattered along the roads. Relations between the Ugandan Asians and the new regime continued to sour. Many of us, including myself, knew that our time was up and left before we were pushed.
During Uganda’s independence, Ugandan Asians had been given British protected passports, and in May 1971 my father sent me here to Britain as a student. Others who stayed were not so lucky. On 4 August 1972, Idi Amin announced that he had had a dream in which God had told him to expel the Asians, and he issued a decree ordering almost all Asians—some 60,000 of them—to leave. At the hands of this brutal dictator, who murdered and tortured hundreds of thousands of people, these 60,000 people were forced to leave behind everything but the clothes on their backs. They were brutally evicted and given only three months to leave.
The expulsion led to a global game of political football. India made it clear that the 60,000 were Britain’s responsibility. Kenya closed its borders to them. Advertisements in Leicester warned us not to go there as there was no housing and no jobs. Friends and family ended up far afield in Canada, India, the US and many other places. Yet the then Conservative Prime Minister, Edward Heath, and his Government rose above the rhetoric of Enoch Powell and others and demonstrated the compassion that I have come to associate with Britain. He ruled that Britain had a legal and moral responsibility to take in those with British passports.
Over 28,000 homeless and scared refugees arrived between August and November at Stansted Airport. In an age when flights are now so regular, it is difficult to appreciate how organised the British were to ferry 28,000 people across two continents in 90 days. It was a great testament to those involved and to British organisation that the operation went so smoothly. Those arriving were greeted at Stansted by a large number of charitable and voluntary organisations, which gave them food and shelter. The then Home Secretary, Robert Carr, established the Uganda Resettlement Board, and 16 temporary camps were set up across the country on old military bases. The resettlement committee did fantastic work and we are very grateful to them, including Praful Patel, who was the sole Asian member of the board.
It was a very difficult time for those who came across. Many of us encountered racial tensions, jobs were not always plentiful, and life was very difficult initially. My great friend and colleague in the other place and fellow Ugandan Asian, Shailesh Vara, has said in the past of the Ugandan Asians:
“Rather than looking at their expulsion as life-destroying, they saw it as a setback. They didn’t stay downcast, got up, and started over again”;
and start over again we did. The Ugandan Asians have helped to transform the fabric of British society, and the children and grandchildren of those who came across are now excelling in so many fields. Today in Britain, Ugandan Asians play a sizeable role in the national economy. While exact figures are not easily available for the impact of this one community, Britons with south Asian roots today make up 2.5% of the population but account for 10% of our national output. The number of Ugandan Asians on the rich list is also sizeable. The influence of the Ugandan Asians has also spread to British politics. Within this House we have four Ugandan Asians—the noble Baroness, Lady Vadera, the noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, and myself, as well as the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York; and in the other place we also have Shailesh Vara.
Perhaps our most notable achievement has been to come to the nation of shopkeepers and transform the shopping experience for British consumers. When we arrived, shops shut at 5pm on weekdays and were closed on weekends. It was the Ugandan Asians who introduced late night shopping and Sunday openings. Within the Ugandan Asian community, and east African Asians in general, we have a large number of eminent doctors and surgeons, and I am proud to say that members of our community are serving today in the Armed Forces and the police.
Our community is often at the top of the education league tables, and we have a new generation of British-born children who are excelling. A large percentage of our children study at Russell Group universities, and many of our British-born youngsters are now reaching the higher tiers of their professions, perhaps most notably in the City.
The Ugandan Asians in Britain are philanthropic; always giving back to the society that has given so much to them. I was very proud this year to see our community celebrating Her Majesty the Queen's Diamond Jubilee and to hear of so many Ugandan Asians giving up time to volunteer for the Olympic and Paralympic Games.
In a moment, I wish to reflect on why I feel we have been so successful in Britain. First I want to reflect on, and praise Uganda for, the journey that she has been on since we left. I returned to Uganda earlier this year as a member of our delegation for the Inter-Parliamentary Union assembly in Kampala. I was staggered by the progress made in 40 years in so many fields. It is remarkable that a country Winston Churchill once referred to as the “Pearl of Africa”, that went through Idi Amin's dictatorship and a brutal civil war in its first 25 years of independence, is now such a friendly and outward-facing country.
Unfortunately, the Ugandan economy under Idi Amin fell apart; yet Britain and Uganda now do almost £150 million of bilateral trade every year—a number that I am confident can grow substantially. I am delighted that the Ugandan high commissioner has been able to join us today. Her Majesty the Queen, who is and always will remain a great inspiration to the Ugandan Asians, visited Uganda in 2007, and organisations such as the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association and the Inter-Parliamentary Union continue to support the building of democracy there.
So much of this improvement is down to President Museveni, who in 1997, to commemorate the 25th anniversary of our expulsion, came to Neasden Temple and invited back those who had been forced to leave in 1972. This brought closure to so many of my friends, and a small few even chose to return. Today in Uganda, the Madhvani Group is once again the largest private sector enterprise, showing how time really can be a great healer.
So why have the Ugandan Asians been so successful in Britain? The answer, I believe, lies in our values. Ugandan Asians have always believed in aspiration, enterprise and the importance of family—three of the values that Britain holds most dear. We have also come to understand the importance of hard work and education, which are things that we have learnt here rather than imported with us. We believe in self-reliance yet understand, perhaps because of our ordeals, the need for a strong community and to support those most in need. Yet we are also fiercely patriotic. We believe in Britain: its values, its tradition and its ability to act as a beacon on the international stage. We are proud to be British; we are the embodiment of people who have found a home that we love and where we belong.
Our values mirror those of the society around us. We have integrated into British society and adopted many new customs along the way, but we have managed to combine the maintaining of elements of our roots and heritage while ensuring that we are British through and through. As a community, we owe a great deal to the Jewish population and to the Board of Deputies of British Jews for helping us to develop. In researching for this debate, I came across an article from the Chief Rabbi, the noble Lord, Lord Sacks, in which he said:
“Many Jews of my parents’ generation owed their lives to this country. It took them in when they faced persecution elsewhere. They loved Britain and deeply internalized its values”.
The parallels with my own community are, to me, obvious.
So often, our national debate on immigration comes down to numerical details. I would argue that integration is a more important element. If you are willing to work hard, learn the language and give back to this great nation, most people do not mind about your skin colour or where you come from. My noble friend Lord Tebbit, who sadly could not join us today, wrote to me ahead of this debate. He originally opposed the arrival of the Ugandan Asians but said in his letter:
“It is clear that the Ugandan Asian community has become integrated into Britain and upholds British values and standards”.
They have, he went on,
“made a remarkable contribution to our economy and the Chancellor’s tax revenues and a below average call on his expenditure”.
We do not want a multicultural society in which different communities and religions are encouraged to live separate lives under different social structures. That form of multiculturalism is not how we build a strong and stable nation. In the same article, the Chief Rabbi concludes:
“Without shared values and a sense of collective identity, no society can sustain itself for long”.
I could not agree more. Britain is a different place from the one that I arrived in. It is more tolerant of ethnic minorities and the glass ceiling that prevented their rise in many professions has, I believe, been smashed. It is not difficult to imagine Britain continuing to become a more ethnically diverse place and, as long as we can maintain the values that have made Britain great, this is not a cause for concern.
The tale of Ugandan Asians in Britain is one that makes me proud, particularly when I see how much the new generation of British Indians has excelled. In 40 years, we have come far and I hope that our community continues to pay Britain back for what she has given us. At the launch of the Conservative Friends of India in April of this year, the Prime Minister said:
“The East African Indians have been one of the most successful groups of immigrants to any country anywhere in history”,
and that they,
“give so much to this incredible country”.
The element I am most proud of is how we have integrated into British society and become a values-led community. The expulsion was difficult on so many levels and we cannot forget those who lost their lives, but we are a strong community and better people because of the challenge we had to overcome.
On the 40th anniversary of our expulsion from Uganda, I wish to conclude by saying thank you to everyone who has helped to make Britain our home: to the volunteers who met us at the airport; to Ted Heath and his Cabinet, who took such a courageous political decision; to Her Majesty the Queen, who has been inspirational; and to the hundreds of thousands of people who have helped us to develop as a community. Thank you. We are so incredibly grateful.
Lord Parekh
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Popat, for securing this debate. He is himself an excellent example of the subject of our discussion. He came to this country traumatised and penniless, and is now a successful businessman and a member of your Lordships’ House. Over the centuries, Britain has welcomed and given a home to many persecuted minorities. It is striking that Ugandan Asians have come to occupy a special place in our national narrative. Indeed, they have become a term of art for referring to all east African Asians. That has to do with the way in which the Ugandan Asians came and settled, and the way in which British society responded to them.
There were about 75,000 Asians in Uganda, constituting about 1% of the population. Around 35,000 of them had British passports. They became a target of hostility and tribal politics and were subjected to expropriation and brutality. About 8,000 families, numbering about 28,000 people, arrived in Britain over a period of 90 days. It is important to bear in mind that, unlike the way in which we have dithered about responding to Kenyan Asians, Britain welcomed them, honoured their British passports and made provisions for their settlement. Enoch Powell moved a motion at the Conservative Party conference condemning government policy but the Young Conservatives and the Federation of Conservative Students saw to it that the motion was defeated by 1,721 votes to 736.
The Heath Government were unbending; not only that, they gave leadership to British public opinion. It is very striking that this was more or less the first time since the Second World War that ordinary British people had offered their homes and hospitality to people whom they had never seen, as they did with the Ugandan Asians. In the first three months, 2,000 private individuals had offered their homes, and within about a year that figure had risen to 5,000. Among them, several political and religious leaders had offered their homes. I gather that one Member of this House whom I know quite well—the noble Baroness, Lady Bottomley—and her husband Peter Bottomley were among those who offered their home to a Ugandan Asian family.
Of course, there were cases where some local authorities panicked, not being quite sure what was in store for them. The fine city of Leicester was one of them; it put a notice in a Ugandan newspaper saying, “Please do not come here”. To its credit, it must be remembered that that notice—I have a copy of the advertisement—referred to the fact that they should not come, as advised by the Uganda Resettlement Board—in other words, the decision was taken by the URB, not by the city of Leicester on its own. The city acted in that way because it was not quite sure how many of the 75,000 people would be going there or what the central Government’s policy would be. It was only a few months later that central Government introduced Section 11 of the Local Government Act 1966. To its great credit, Leicester—in spite of that advertisement, which in a historical context is fully understandable—welcomed them and provided them with a home where they could flourish. That was Britain at its best, and it goes to show how immigration, if wisely handled, can become a source of great public support and strength.
To their credit, the Ugandan Asians reciprocated in the same spirit of gratitude and self-help. Many of them refused to accept the help that the Government were extending to them, while some who accepted financial help returned it. Within 15 years, all 28,300 of the Ugandan Asians who had come here had settled down. Never before in British history has a persecuted group established itself so well in such a short time, without recourse to public resources. That is a wonderful example to all minorities and that is the Ugandan Asians’ first contribution—one to be measured not in terms of their monetary and professional contribution but in terms of the historical example that they have set to other minorities.
The second contribution is no less important. I hope you will forgive me if I concentrate on non-tangible aspects of their contribution; after all, I am a philosopher by training. This contribution has to do with the fact that in spite of being persecuted and harassed, they did not bear a grudge against the Ugandan Government. They did not become an anti-Ugandan lobby, as they could have easily done. They blamed Amin but not the country and its people. As the noble Lord, Lord Popat said, they took great pride in returning to the country from time to time. That spirit of forgiveness and reconciliation is their second great contribution.
While many Ugandan Asians came to Britain, some of them went to Canada, Australia, the United States and even India. Family members were scattered all over the world and formed a vibrant trans-national network. As a result, there is hardly a Ugandan Asian family that does not have one branch in Canada, one in the United States and one in India. This not only makes them a transnational network; it also gives them a unique global and cosmopolitan consciousness. That is the third great contribution: a way of looking at the world that is grounded in global interconnectedness.
The fourth great contribution of the Ugandan Asians is at the level of culture. They have built temples and community centres. Sadly, not many noble Lords can read or write the language, but many of them have written wonderful short stories and poetry in their language, which also happens to be my language—namely, Guajarati. In fact, they are the only minority I know who have produced a rich, vibrant literature on their experiences in Uganda and in Britain.
They have also profoundly transformed our shopping culture, living on top of the shop, opening until late and serving exotic items, with all family members joining in to look after the shop, ranging from the grandfather to the grandchild of seven. They provide a kind of shelter—a lively, vibrant place—in inner cities.
They have also thrown up a prosperous middle class, giving the utmost importance to the education of their children. It is very striking that their children tend to be high achievers at GCSE and A-level; many of them are finding their way into some of our great universities.
The third generation of Ugandan Asians—and they are what we are now talking about—has continued this trend. Ugandan Asians, in short, are continuing to make an invaluable contribution and to provide a great pool of commercial and professional talent. I join the rest of your Lordships in saluting this country and in welcoming and celebrating the contributions made by Ugandan Asians to this country.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Popat, on introducing this debate today and warmly thank him. I have to begin with an apology, because when I put my name down, I thought the debate was going to start at 2 pm and I have to attend an engagement in my former constituency this evening over snow-covered roads. I hope the Front Benches will acquit me of discourtesy for not being here at the wind-up and transgressing the Companion in that way.
I did not want to withdraw my name because of my own personal background in this matter. My father was a minister of the Church of Scotland, ministering for eight years to the Scots population in Kenya and Uganda officially, and Tanganyika unofficially. As a boy, I drove with him on his preaching tours during the school holidays throughout those three territories. I have used every excuse and opportunity to go back and visit those places whenever I can, and I will be again during the February Recess.
The problem for the Asians in east Africa started not in Uganda but in Kenya, with the Africanisation programme of the Kenyatta Government. At that point, the Asian population of Kenya was less than 2% of the whole. They had come there from 1895 onwards to build the railway and develop a considerable role in trading in the colony. Sadly, in 1967-68, when they started to come to Britain because of the Africanisation programme, there was a great controversy in this country about what should be done about it—against the wishes of people like Iain Macleod and Hugh Fraser, who had been the Ministers responsible at the time of independence of these territories. They had given the Asian—in fact, the whole expatriate—population two years in which to opt either for local citizenship or to retain British citizenship. Many had retained British citizenship, but the Government of the day decided to introduce the Commonwealth Immigrants Act 1968, which withdrew that fundamental right of entry into this country. It was something to which we in the Liberal Party at that time were very much opposed, and I was very proud of my party that we divided the House of Commons against the Second Reading of that Bill. We only had 10 Members at that time, but we attracted 62 others from the major parties into the Lobby in protest against that decision. Interestingly enough, I looked up what the vote was in this Chamber, and it was much closer. With the influence of the Bishops and other sensible people, the vote in favour of the Bill was carried narrowly by 109 votes to 85, which shows again how this Chamber was perhaps rather more principled than that of the Commons.
Anyway, I wrote a book about it at the time and that much neglected work I discovered in the Library here cost £2 at the time. I could not find my own copy, so I went on to Amazon and I found that I could get one for £44. I wish that everything I have done had risen at the same rate. That is slightly irrelevant, because the impact of that Act clearly had to be withdrawn when Idi Amin’s Government in Uganda started to expel the British population by force. In 1971, I went on a visit to Kampala to meet a member of Idi Amin’s Government who had been at university with me in Edinburgh; later I had to flee the country. The British high commission was not very happy to have a Member of Parliament on its hands, and insisted that I be driven back to Entebbe Airport for 21 miles—to which the noble Lord, Lord Popat, referred—in the daylight, getting there at 6 pm, when the plane from Nairobi was coming through at midnight. For six hours, I sat in the airport, accompanied by the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, who at that time was my assistant. We watched the exodus of the Asians: we watched their baggage being looted and dumped on the tarmac; we watched their jewellery and watches being taken off them. I wrote at the time:
“I have never witnessed such scenes of unbridled abusive power and virtual anarchy”.
It was a terrible episode.
I will be brief because I am not able to stay. Winston Churchill visited the colonies in 1908; he was Under-Secretary of State for the Colonies at the time. He wrote:
“It is the Indian trader who, penetrating and maintaining himself in all sorts of places to which no white man would go, or in which no white man could earn a living, has more than anyone else developed the early beginnings of trade and opened up the first slender means of communication. It was by Indian labour that the one vital railway on which everything else depends was constructed. It is the Indian banker who supplies perhaps the largest part of the capital yet available for business and enterprise, and to whom the white settlers have not hesitated to recur for financial aid”.
That was written in 1908 and it was that spirit of enterprise and adventure that these people brought so commendably to this country, and for which we thank them.
Lord Singh of Wimbledon
It is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Steel, who has done so much over the years to assist not only the Ugandan Asians but many others on these shores. I, too, would like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Popat, for securing this important debate celebrating the tremendous contribution of Ugandan Asians to the life of this country following their expulsion from Uganda by Idi Amin 40 years ago.
Looking back to the time of the expulsion, I recall the arrival of disorientated people with little more than the clothes they were wearing. I was struck by both the resilience of the Ugandan Asians and the extraordinary generosity of the British people. There were some noisy, ill informed protests against the decision of Edward Heath’s Government to welcome bewildered refugees who, in some cases, had been thrown out of the land of their birth. Edward Heath rightly earned the lasting gratitude of Ugandan Asians, and his humanitarian stance was, as we have heard, widely supported by many others.
Following the end of the First World War, immigrants from India, mainly Gujarat and Punjab, were encouraged to bring their enterprise and skills to newly developing British east Africa—to Kenya, Uganda and Tanganyika. Life was tough, and they endured many hardships. My father was a medical officer there for some years, and he would tell us about the difficulties the early pioneers had in establishing themselves in a new country. Over the years, they gradually became the industrial and commercial backbone of the country, with their own schools, places of worship, clubs and community centres. Then, suddenly confronted with Idi Amin’s cruel and erratic behaviour, they were forced to leave their settled life behind and seek a new future in Britain.
Well educated and previously reasonably wealthy people had to leave their homes, assets and African friends for the uncertainty of life in a new country. Some spent a brief period in resettlement camps and from there sought cheap, crowded accommodation and worked all hours of the day to feed themselves and their families. However, their extraordinary resilience and spirit of enterprise stayed with them. They worked long hours running corner shops or in low-paid employment. By dint of hard work, some slowly moved into the food and clothing warehouse businesses.
Others, as we know, moved into wider branches of industry and commerce, bringing trade and adding value to the country that had given them refuge in their hour of need. The same spirit of enterprise soon took them and their children into medicine, law and other professions. I remember a young lad in a local corner shop who used to do his homework in between serving customers; today, he is a university professor.
Noble Lords have heard of some of the individual achievements and successes, and I want to focus on another very important achievement that has lessons for us all today. One of the criticisms of immigrant communities is that they are sometimes reluctant to integrate into the life and norms of their adopted country, instead leading parallel lives in what are sometimes termed ghettoes. It is a two-way thing. On the one side, some immigrants tend to fear the hostility of others and therefore keep together. Unfortunately this itself increases suspicion, and sometimes a measure of actual hostility, in the host population. We see a little of this today in some parts of Yorkshire, where even those born here sometimes seem to lead separate lives. None of this applies to those who came here from Uganda 40 years ago. Many in Britain understood and sympathised with their plight, and the new arrivals enthusiastically adapted to their new environment where they have since gone on to reach the highest level in local and national government, including a much valued presence in your Lordships’ House.
As I said, successful integration is a two-way process, and I want to end by paying tribute to the British people for their kindness and generosity in welcoming Asians forced out of Uganda. It is truly a remarkable success story which has important lessons for us today in a world of increasing movement of populations and cultures.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, it is a great pleasure once again to follow the noble Lord, Lord Singh. I did so a few weeks ago. I speak in this debate for two reasons. The first is that towards the end of March last year, I sat by my noble friend Lord Popat shortly before he made his maiden speech. There was an exchange on the Floor of the House on prayers. I shall never forget it because he said to me, “I can’t say anything because I haven’t made my maiden speech”—and, of course, he could not—“Could you let it be known that those of us who are not Christians but are of other faiths attach great importance to the established church in this country and to the ritual of daily prayers in this Chamber?”. I was very moved by that, and I did indeed quote my noble friend and make those points on the Floor of this House. I was moved by it because it was indicative, in a few sentences, of what the noble Lord, Lord Singh, has just said: the way in which this community has become part of Britain in every possible sense. My noble friend, in his admirable opening speech, made that very plain.
My second reason for wanting to say a few words in this debate is that I was elected to the House of Commons in 1970. I was one of the Conservatives who helped to create the majority for Edward Heath by defeating the late Lady Lee—Jennie Lee, as she then was—in the Cannock constituency. I represented a seat that was adjacent to Wolverhampton. I am proud to say that I was until his dying day a great friend of Enoch Powell. Indeed, I had the privilege of giving the address at his funeral. He was not right on everything but then, nor is anyone else.
I was proud to be in the House of Commons when the Conservative Prime Minister said, “This is our duty. There can be no equivocation. These are British subjects with British passports. They are being expelled from their country which in many cases is the land of their birth. They are entitled to come here and they will be welcome here”. I was one of those Conservative Members who was proud to support a Prime Minister who was doing what was right. Although it was not desperately convenient and there was very understandable concern at the numbers of immigrants coming into this country, here was a special category—a group who did not deserve to suffer from that 1968 Bill of which my noble friend Lord Steel of Aikwood spoke so movingly a few moments ago.
They came here and we all know what has happened since. They integrated into our country. They infused a new life into the economy in many parts of the land. They worked. They prospered. They learnt how to adapt to and adopt British ways. They are a remarkable example to which only one other community can perhaps be compared. They have already been referred to—the Jews who came here, not necessarily expelled, but forced to flee the tyranny of Nazi Germany before the war.
As a very young Member of Parliament I was already aware of what it was like to live in a country where, because of your colour or your religion, you were persecuted. In this context I am delighted that I am to be followed in this debate by my friend—and I use the word very advisedly—the noble Lord, Lord Janner of Braunstone. He and I in 1970—another founder member, the noble Lord, Lord Dykes, is also here—helped to found the Campaign for the Release of Soviet Jewry. They were people in Soviet Russia who were not allowed to worship or to live normal lives but for whom there was an opportunity, if they could get a visa, to get out of the country. The noble Lords, Lord Janner and Lord Dykes, and I and others—I think of our friend Sir Ivan Lawrence who was a Member of Parliament at that time and was part of our group—worked very hard to draw attention to their plight.
That was the underlying reason why, in many ways, I felt that it would be utterly inconsistent and totally wrong, working as we were on that front, to do anything other than give the most unequivocal support to Edward Heath in the difficult but principled stand he took when it came to the Ugandan Asians. Although he is far too modest to say this, my noble friend Lord Popat is a living example of the rightness of that decision. He came to this country, put much into it, prospered as a result—I am delighted to say—and is a valued Member of your Lordships’ House. What greater example can there be of progress from exile—a member of a repudiated and expelled community obtaining a position of leadership and influence in his adopted country, of which he is rightly and so movingly proud?
Over the years, all of us in politics make many, many mistakes. We are all guilty of missing opportunities but in this case the British Government of the day held fast to that which was good. They did not render evil for evil but said “Welcome” and, as a result, they have been richly rewarded. I should like to conclude by echoing the words of my noble friend Lord Steel of Aikwood. It is very splendid that my noble friend Lord Popat has said thank you to this country but we owe a big thank you to him and to his community for all they have done.
Lord Janner of Braunstone
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, especially for his kind words about me and about the Jewish community, of which am part. I praise my noble friend Lord Popat on this remarkable and important debate on the occasion of the 40th anniversary of the exile of the Ugandan Asian community from their home by Idi Amin. My noble friend was right that there are similarities between his community and my Jewish family who were immigrants. I also thank the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for his very kind words. He has long been a friend of mine and I only regret that he sits on the wrong side of the House.
I remember all of this so well and I am delighted to share my memories with the House today and to speak of my experience with the unique and wonderful Ugandan Asian community from 1970, when I had just become an MP for part of Leicester. We could ask why the Ugandan Asian community chose Leicester. The first immigrants went to the city by chance and the rest by recommendation. My Jewish family had fled intolerance and discrimination, and had moved to Britain, as did many Asian families who moved to live with their relations who had already settled in Leicester.
In 1972, in the Ugandan capital of Kampala, an advert in its local newspaper declared that Leicester was full up and that emigrating Asians should look for somewhere else. However, just like all other communities, the Asian immigrants were intelligent people and the families already in Leicester contacted other family members in Uganda to make sure that they hurried up and moved before it was too late. In that year, an even larger influx from Uganda arrived in Leicester.
Sadly, as you would expect, as proud as I was of Leicester—I still am—for welcoming the diverse communities, they were not accepted by everyone. The local National Front and other fascist organisations encouraged more “white” people to join their campaign to fight against the immigration. Thanks to the Leicester Mercury, the local newspaper which is still running today, and the local police, we kept the fascists at bay. In 1977, I won the next election, but I only just made it.
One of my most unique and touching experiences was when I first met the Asian community at a meeting in Leicester. A mix of Ugandan and Indian people attended this meeting. Having spoken to Apa Pant, the Indian High Commissioner at the time, I stood up and declared with passion how I wanted to help their community, and how happy I was that they were bringing diversity and new culture to Leicester.
Immediately, a young man wearing traditional Indian dress stood up. He said: “Mr Janner, you have no right to lecture us on how we should live. You do not understand the problems we face. You have never been spat at because you are a different colour. You have never been cursed on a bus or sworn at because of your accent. Go away, Mr Janner”. He sat down and the room was absolutely silent.
I replied, “You are wrong, sir. I am a Jew and half my family were murdered by racists; destroyed because of their race. Sadly, I am an expert on discrimination. I know far too much about it. We must work together to fight racism. We have the same enemies. We have the same friends. We have many of the same ideas”. From that moment, my relationship with the Asian community blossomed and developed from respect to friendship.
The Ugandan Asian community has brought so much to this country. Its determination to survive and to create a home in Britain is evident. It helped to save Leicester’s economy by bringing in new ideas. It built up wholesale and retail sectors. Today, Leicester is one of the first non-white majority cities in Britain. It is a truly remarkable place where communities of different races and backgrounds work together. I am delighted to have worked for Leicester and I still remain a supporter of that wonderful city.
We can look around this House and see the diverse Asian communities, who are first, second, third, or even fourth generation and who have contributed to our country. We all should praise my noble friend Lord Popat, who moved from Uganda after being exiled because of his own race. At the young age of 17, he put himself through night school. During his career he has worked to advocate community cohesion between different faiths. He became a brilliant businessman and, sadly, he joined the Conservative party—the wrong party. He is the first Gujarati Member of the House of Lords and he stands in this Chamber with many other distinguished Asian Members. It is truly remarkable and so is he.
For me, the key to acceptance and to sensible immigration can be summed up in one word—integration. You retain your pride in your culture, customs, religions and traditions but you adapt to the place where you have chosen to live. Integration takes time. Over the past 40 years, the Ugandan Asian community in Britain has demonstrated how it can keep its individuality but also identify itself as part of our country. Our friend is the leader.
We congratulate here today our Ugandan Asian community on its contribution to our country. Here in Britain, we must always recognise and celebrate our true diversity, and continue to ensure that we work with all minorities in our very fine country to keep Britain a unique place in which to live.
Lord Dykes
My Lords, the fact that I am following the excellent speech of the noble Lord, Lord Janner of Braunstone, gives me the opportunity to say that some years after we had the great dramas which centred not only on Leicester, but on the London Borough of Harrow, where I was a Member of Parliament—in those days in the Conservative cause—we had the great privilege, right in the centre of the borough in Harrow, of celebrating the 50th anniversary of the second and third exodus of the Kindertransport children coming to the railway stations in London. They had been saved and rescued and taken to various parts of the country, and been given good, kind homes where they were welcomed as Jewish children fleeing from Nazi tyranny. I had, of course, to remind them that British Rail had asked me to pass on a message saying that there was still a bill outstanding for 950 scones, 475 cups of tea, 725 cups of coffee and could someone eventually pay the bill, which, with interest would be about £19,000? I did not bother with that.
I was very proud of the fact that Harrow, my borough, where I was the MP for one of the two constituencies, represented the multiethnic, multiracial, multicommunity philosophy that had already begun. We had a very substantial Jewish community of various groups, kinds and origins, as the noble Lord, Lord Janner, will know—he came to Harrow quite often I think. In an informal, colloquial sense I was honorary member of at least four synagogues and I went to synagogue as much as I went to church, which I was very proud of, and I always enjoyed them, even if the service was a bit longer than the Christian one. It was a great joy for us to welcome them and to remember what that meant for people.
Harrow had other groups as well. We had 190 Ismailis centred in a complex of about five different roads, with their pictures of the Aga Khan on the mantelpiece and so on, and I kept in close touch with them. In 1970, when I was first elected, having been very close to Edward Heath as his campaign assistant for the general election in 1964 and a candidate in 1966, he by then having become leader of the party, it was rather difficult for the local Conservative Association to say no to me when I was presented as possible choice of candidate and so I fought Tottenham. The courage he showed was immense. He was not always an easy person to work with—I hasten to add that I worked at a very humble level and he was the famous Prime Minister by then—but when I was elected in Harrow he had not forgotten that Enoch Powell had issued his venomous remarks on several occasions just before that election.
We tried to take action in Harrow because it was such a sensitive subject, with our multiethnic groups and so on. Edward Heath, with his characteristic dark, gothic humour said, “Now that you have become an MP I want to punish you by making you a PPS at the Ministry of Defence, dealing with all the Ministers, but in the mean time we are also going to do something else”—this was slightly later—“we are going to make Harrow a red-star zone for receiving Ugandan Asian refugees”. We therefore promulgated this locally.
Noble Lords can imagine that the scenes were a bit stormy in some of the local political groupings. In my own association there were some indigenous characters from the original community who were not so keen on this, but we insisted and Edward Heath, with great courage, and Alec Douglas-Home as well as other members of the Government ensured that legislation was passed, as referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack. I thank him for his remarks. We insisted on that and we never looked back from the original reception when two sets of families, I think, came in. I am not exaggerating when I say that the borough of Harrow was already a dynamic area, thanks to the local MP—that is exaggerating, of course—and a very successful business area in terms of the people who resided there, but the philosophy, ethics and business acumen of the borough was transformed not only by the original Jewish communities whose members were resident there and sometimes working there, but by the arrival of the Ugandan Asians.
It had an extraordinary, tangible effect over a few years. The borough was transformed; it was electrified into becoming an interesting, riveting place, not only because the local corner shop stayed open until midnight or even 1am, but for all the other contributions that this remarkable community has made. Some time after, doing my rounds as the Conservative MP for Harrow East in our main residential area of Stanmore where we had our most important ward committee, I noticed the arrival of a very distinguished, very courteous, very polite young Ugandan Asian gentleman who slightly later became the ward chairman. I am referring, of course, to Dolar Popat; now the noble Lord, Lord Popat, of Harrow. That has given me, just as a personal example, a wonderful picture of the success of what this community has done for this country and what it meant for them to be saved, along with their families, children of all ages and older people, too. They have made such a contribution, which is unbelievable for a community that is quite small in comparison with other influxes over the decades. So we say thank you to them for what they have done.
As the noble Lord, Lord Popat, said, it is a matter of great delight that a reconciliation subsequently occurred, with Uganda becoming a totally different country. I am glad to see that the Ugandan Government are represented in the public seats today. That, too, means a lot to us. I often feel that historically each continent has its turn. I remember the stark poverty and abject conditions in Asia after the end of the Second World War and the old empires, with the French, the Dutch and so on leaving those territories in great poverty and distress. Good things have been done in the economies of various countries, but Asia was transformed by business acumen—by entrepreneurs, business people and investment. Who is to say that in some decades’ time, with more education and investment, not only will the Chinese come to Africa but other people will, too? Perhaps the British and other colonial powers will come back with their companies and invest more as well, not just in mining and extraction but in other things. They will help to build up Africa, as will the existing and emerging bourgeoisie in Africa—the business community that is in many different African countries, and I am sure in Uganda as well, which I have not had the pleasure of visiting. That reconciliation is important, because we are all in the global village now, and it means that Africa could be the next continent to develop—with more investment in education, and more of the air-conditioning that is needed in very hot climates. As those things gradually come, they will mean a great deal to those who experienced the bitter past and later a glorious future, and arrived here to help this country to become one of greater justice and fairness and multiethnic tolerance.
Lord Bilimoria
My Lords, over the over the centuries communities have had to flee persecution, drop everything they owned and the connections they had built up, and flee. Over 1,000 years ago my own community, the Zoroastrian Parsees, had to flee their homeland of ancient Persia and settle in India. Fast forward to today and I would say that the Parsee community, in terms of per capita achievement, was one of the most successful communities in the world, in spite of the way in which they had to leave their country.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Popat, for initiating this debate. Forty years ago, as we have heard, Ugandan Asians had to drop everything and flee due to the cruel actions of a brutal dictator, Idi Amin, and came to this country with nothing. Fast forward 40 years and look at what they have achieved. There is the Madhvani family, of whom the noble Lord spoke; Anuj Chande, my friend, who is a member of that family, is a senior partner in Grant Thornton. The noble Lord, Lord Popat, himself has been an enormous success himself, and then there is my friend Shailesh Vara in the other place, and the Jatania family. I could go on with the numerous examples of Ugandan Asian business people who have been successful in this country, all in the space of a few decades.
When I first imported Cobra beer to the UK, I knew that Indian restaurants were going to be my base, but the first case I sold was to my local corner shop, owned by east African Asians. Today I am a senior independent director of Booker, the largest wholesale company in Britain, and we supply over 70,000 independent retailers, many of whom are east African Asians. I have seen first-hand how hard these families work and how every member contributes to the success of their businesses. I know so many stories of children coming home from school to work in their parents’ shop, who then work late into the night on their homework. This embodies for me what it is like to be an Asian in Britain.
When I am asked about Asian values, I say that it is very simple—it is down to the importance of hard work, of family and of education. The noble Lord, Lord Popat, also spoke of these values. Nobody embodies these Asian values more or better than the Ugandan Asian community. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Popat, on securing this debate and highlighting the achievements of this wonderful community. However, the success of the Zoroastrian Parsees in India was possible only because the Indians, starting with the Gujaratis on the west cost of India, allowed the Parsees to come in and settle, practise their religion and keep their culture and customs—and not just exist but co-exist with the local Indian community. Similarly, the success of the Ugandan Asian community has been possible only because of the generosity of this great country that took them in and gave them the opportunity to flourish. The noble Lord, Lord Popat, has thanked this country; I always thank it for giving me and the Asians here that opportunity.
Let us put this in perspective. As the noble Lord, Lord Janner, said, in the 1970s this was a country full of prejudice, when the glass ceiling was not just still there but was double-glazed. Even when I came from India as a 19 year-old in the early 1980s, Britain was a very different country from what it is today. Today, we have improved in leaps and bounds as a nation that is not just an opportunity-for-all country but a multicultural country and a meritocracy, where people from any religious or racial background can reach the top in every field. It is a country where entrepreneurship was looked down upon three or four decades ago. Today, entrepreneurship as demonstrated by the Ugandan Asian community is celebrated in this country.
In fact, those corner shops started by this community are the cornerstone of our economy—the entrepreneurial success stories of these individuals, who went as complete strangers to every high street of this country, opened up their shops, won customers, made friends and, more often than not, put back into their local communities. To this day, in spite of the proliferation of the giant supermarkets, the Ugandan Asians who own the two corner shops near our house know the names of all of my children, as they know the names of the children of all their customers, and they work really hard.
This country has been built on good immigration, the kind that we have seen from the Ugandan Asians, but the way in which this Government are dealing with immigration, with their immigration cap, is crude and blunt—they are using a carpet-bombing technique. The Government’s policy is not just addressing bad immigration, it is also stifling the good immigration that, quite frankly, this country has been built on over the centuries. The immigration cap is affecting businesses, not only in the signals that it is sending out in general but in very practical terms. For example, as I mentioned earlier, the foundation of my business is the Indian restaurant industry, where I know from the Bangladesh Caterers Association—the leading industry body—how much the industry is suffering because it cannot bring in the skilled staff, and chefs in particular, that it desperately needs. I am all for “curry colleges” being set up in Britain in the way that the University of West London, where I was proud to be chancellor for five years, is doing. However, these initiatives take time to produce the skilled individuals that the industry so badly needs. In the mean time the restaurants, which are already suffering a huge recession, are, on top of that, being deprived of skilled staff by the Government’s ill-considered Immigration Rules—and we as consumers are suffering because we are a nation of “curryholics”.
I have spoken many times about how the Immigration Rules are affecting higher education. Britain has the best universities in the world, alongside those in America. Now the Government have removed the two-year postgraduation visa for students, which was such an attraction to foreign students, who brought some £8 billion of revenue into this country. Quite apart from that, foreign students enrich our universities; they enrich our home students, giving them wonderful experience of interacting with international students as well as building generational links across the world. I am the third generation of my family to have been educated in this country.
We have seen a dramatic fall in the number of applications from students around the world, particularly from India, because the Government are sending out signals that Britain does not want foreign students. I know that this is not the case but that is the perception that has been created. Some 30% of academics at Oxford and Cambridge, for example, are foreign. Even they are suffering in terms of getting the brightest and the best because of what I believe is a retrograde government policy.
I have spoken before about the UK Border Agency abruptly taking away the licence from London Metropolitan University to sponsor visas for foreign students and telling the existing students that they had 60 days to find another university. It claimed to have found irregularities but the vast majority of those 2,500 to 3,000 students were completely innocent of any wrong-doing. This is without regard to the finances of the university, which will be short of £30 million a year. Not only does this jeopardise the university but it sends a signal to foreign students around the world that if they come and study in Britain there is no certainty that they will be able to complete their studies at their institution. That is damaging and short-sighted. Again, I ask the Minister if she will request the Government to remove student figures from the immigration figures, just as the United States, Canada and Australia have done. Why do we have to include them?
In conclusion, we are a tiny country of 60 million people and we are rightly worried about excessive immigration. We need to clamp down on illegal immigration, but why are we doing it in a way that is harming our economy, our universities and our competitiveness—the very fabric of our nation? As the noble Lords, Lord Popat and Lord Janner, said, the Ugandan Asian community has shown the wonderful way that it has integrated. The Asian community makes up 4% of the population of this country and yet is contributing more than double that percentage to its economy. The Ugandan Asian community has shown clearly and brilliantly that good immigration always has been, and always will be, great for this country.
Lord Sheikh
My Lords, I am extremely thankful for the opportunity to speak in this debate, and I am most grateful to my noble friend Lord Popat for calling it and for his excellent speech. That is not least because members of my family were among the 28,000 Ugandan Asians who came to the United Kingdom in the 1970s. Thus, the personal resonance of this subject for me holds no bounds.
I also believe that this 40th anniversary provides us with an opportunity properly to reflect on just how significant a part this movement has played in the cultural and social development of the UK, and how much better off we all are because of it. Ultimately, the UK gave asylum to around half of those exiled from Uganda, including many from a cross-section of different religions. Such a considerable and complex movement of people brings with it personal stories of triumph and turmoil.
My father originally came to Uganda in the 1920s and quickly carved out a name for himself in a wide range of industries including cotton, hides and skins, coffee and property. He was president of the Indian association in our home town for more than 30 years and represented all the communities of Asian origin. He also helped to pioneer the Ugandan education system, benefiting thousands of children. He can be described as a man of vision, an entrepreneur and a philanthropist. He died in the 1960s, before my family were expelled the following decade, but I had already learnt much that has inspired me to do well in this country.
I brought that hunger and enthusiasm with me when I came to this country. This culture is typical of many other Asians who came here from Uganda. Although the ancestors many of the Indian families were originally brought over in the 19th century to help build the railway system, they had since become successful in businesses and professions. The community prospered in every walk of life. By the 1970s, they were the backbone of Ugandan economy. There was peace and harmony between people of various religions and racial origins in Uganda. When the Asians were expelled, their properties, businesses and almost everything else was taken from them by Idi Amin and his Government. As such, they arrived on British shores completely penniless. General Amin took everything from us except our knowledge and what we had in our heads.
I think that I speak for most, if not all, of those who came to this country during this time when I express my gratitude for Prime Minister Edward Heath’s honourable decision to allow those of us with British passports to settle here. Others went to places such as Canada, Australia and Europe, but I am grateful that my family was able to come and enjoy the opportunities that the UK provided to us and thousands of others. Upon their arrival, many Ugandan Asians were able to open corner shops and other small family businesses that proved to be highly successful in serving the needs of local communities. Many of them also took jobs in various sectors. This provided them with a solid base on which to raise their families and rebuild their lives.
The children of those families have since grown up and been educated here in the UK, serving only to advance their family lines through the high quality of learning that we so celebrate in this country. While some have taken over the family corner shop or followed in their mother’s or father’s footsteps, others have moved into different professions that in many cases were not accessible to their parents.
Today, the sons and daughters of Ugandan Asians are visible in every walk of life, from medicine to banking and from writing to manufacturing. They make valuable contributions to our workforce, pay their taxes and help us to compete on the international stage. It should also be noted that the crime rate among this community is very low. Their influence can even be felt in this very House; I know that my colleagues, the noble Lord, Lord Popat, and the noble Baroness, Lady Vadera, share my proud heritage, as do Shailesh Vara and Priti Patel in the House of Commons.
Perhaps the most notable example of where Ugandan Asians have thrived as a community is in Leicester and in the London Borough of Harrow, where, despite much resistance at the time, a number of the immigrants chose to settle. In the short term they helped to breathe new life into the economy of these areas, mainly through regenerating the manufacturing base and establishing new businesses.
There are many specific examples of individuals and families who have thrived and become successful in their own right upon coming to the United Kingdom. I should like to mention the inspirational example of a good friend of mine, Mr Jaffer Kapasi, who was one of those who moved to Leicester in 1972. He arrived in the United Kingdom at the age of 22 with nothing. After university, he trained as an accountant and, several years later, set up his own business. He chaired a housing association for elderly and vulnerable people in the Midlands. When he took over the chairmanship in 1992, the association had 280 homes, and when he stepped down last year it had 1,900. He was awarded an OBE in 1997 for services to business in Leicestershire. This year, the Meiji University in Tokyo published his life story and I highly recommend that noble Lords read it.
The contributions of Ugandan Asians to the United Kingdom can be acknowledged on many levels and in many circles—economic, cultural, social and professional. It is a testament to how homogeneous a community they are that they have integrated so well into the British way of life. Wherever they have gone, they have earned respect, maintained a strong work ethic and forged successful relationships with other communities.
This is a land of opportunity and tolerance, and we have always found the environment highly conducive to success. These qualities have allowed the Ugandan Asian community to flourish and, in turn, its members have served only to enrich our society further. I believe that this anniversary should remind us of the opportunities that there have been for members of that community to live well and flourish.
Uganda’s loss truly has been Britain’s gain. The Asian community that came here and its future generations will, I believe, be good British citizens and help in the advancement and well-being of this great nation. Thank you, Britain, for accepting us when we arrived here. You have certainly lived up to the name “Great Britain”.
Lord Bach
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Popat— who, along with me, is a member of the all-party group on India and whom I have come to know through that organisation—on obtaining this debate and particularly on the quality of his opening speech. It is a subject on which I think the whole House can be united and I look forward to what the Minister has to say in due course.
I am delighted to be making a guest appearance on the Front Bench. Like my noble friend Lord Janner, my experience is based on what I describe as “God’s own city”; others call it Leicester. For a number of years I was a ward councillor for St Margaret’s ward—part of the noble Lord’s old constituency and part of which is in the Belgrave area of the city. A very large number of my constituents were Ugandan Asians. Even today my links with the city remain strong. I have spoken to both the executive city mayor, Sir Peter Soulsby, and to Sundip Meghani, a young Labour councillor born in Leicester of Ugandan Asian parents who came to this country as refugees—Councillor Meghani started the debate in Leicester to celebrate the 40th year—concerning the Motion of the noble Lord, Lord Popat. I thank all other noble Lords who have spoken in the debate. We have had some remarkable speeches. I very much enjoyed the account by the noble Lord, Lord Steel, of what must have been a really awful experience of watching people being forced out of their own country.
Looking back at that time 40 years ago, it is easy to be critical of some of the early responses from this country to the crisis that was caused suddenly and solely by President Amin. It represented a brutal act with no regard for generations of Ugandan Asians who had been a vital and successful part of Ugandan life, particularly where business and commerce were concerned but also in a much wider context than that. The noble Lord, Lord Dykes, talked about the Heath Government, who have to be praised for the courage of the course that they took. I have no doubt there were queries within the Government. The late Lord Carr, a former Member of this House who is not spoken of much, was the Home Secretary. The proudest part of his political career, he told someone later, was the time that he spent persuading the Cabinet to do the right thing—which they clearly did—and do its duty to dual passport holders. The Government were pressed by their own supporters during the course of that year and it is to their credit that they saw off those opponents on this matter. They also had to face the appalling National Front in taking the brave decision to allow the refugees in, a decision for which they are still remembered today.
At local level, Leicester City Council’s famous advertisement, placed in a Kampala paper, encouraging people not to come to Leicester was not, perhaps, its proudest moment. However, I think it is worth repeating what the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, said: that particular advertisement appeared because the Ugandan Resettlement Board had made it clear that it was designating areas that it was trying to dissuade people from coming to. In fact, the advertisement told people to accept the advice of the Ugandan Resettlement Board. Thankfully, that advice was not taken. In fact, it may well be that many Ugandans were encouraged to come to Leicester by the advertisement. Whatever the reason, the effect has been very advantageous indeed for the city of Leicester. It is worth pointing out that there was no extra government money at that early stage when the advertisement appeared.
The truth is that this country can be pretty proud of the way in which the authorities, whether at local or national level, dealt with this issue. Grants were eventually made available; they were wisely spent, and sensible policies were adopted. I am immensely proud that for many years now Leicester has had a reputation for having people from many backgrounds and cultures living and working together in harmony. Much of that is down to the good sense and decency of both the indigenous population and the newcomers, to the sensible pragmatic policies of Leicester City Council over the years and to the Leicester Mercury and BBC Radio Leicester. I know it is not fashionable at the moment to praise the press or the BBC but they have done a lot in their own way to ensure that the culture of the city grew up and that the new Leicester was supported.
Those early days cannot have been easy for the Ugandan Asians who came to this country. Many of the men had professional jobs in Uganda but had to go on to the factory floor while many Ugandan Asian women, who I understand were used to staying at home, had to find jobs in the hosiery industry. In Leicester, the tradition is that the factories are very close to the residential areas due to the history of women having worked there for many years. It was through working together that barriers began to be broken down. When looking back, it is important not to fall into the trap of thinking that things were easy for those who arrived. The National Front targeted the City of Leicester and, after a brief burst of popular support but not electoral success, thank goodness, it was seen off by the good sense of the city and its citizens.
The Ugandans’ homes had been forcibly taken from them and this was a strange new country. Forty years on, it is the unanimous view among sensible people of good will across party, race or culture that Ugandan Asians have, as the debate has made clear, contributed enormously to the British way of life. Their commitment to family life and to entrepreneurial spirit has benefited this country immensely. Their ever-increasing role in public life enhances our political system too. From Members of Parliament and Ministers to senior officials in national and local government, through the arts, fashion, food and sports, those with a Ugandan Asian background have become an essential part of British life. Long may that continue.
This coming Saturday I hope to be having my lunch on Belgrave Road in Leicester at a very well known landmark, a vegetarian restaurant called Bobby’s. Some noble Lords will have had very pleasant experiences there. That restaurant is owned by a Ugandan Asian. When I come out from lunch at about 2 pm—it gets dark at that time these days—the Diwali lights on Belgrave Road will be on. Later on, those lights will become Christmas lights. I do not think that there is a better symbol of how Ugandan Asians, Asians in general in Leicester and the indigenous population have managed to find a way of living together in harmony.
The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)
My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Popat on securing this debate and on his moving and personal speech. The noble Lord clearly embodies the Motion he is moving as he highlights the contribution of the Ugandan Asian community. Perhaps I may start where he finished. I say thank you to the noble Lord, Lord Popat, for allowing me an opportunity to respond on behalf of the Government to such a timely debate. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, for an informative and enlightening contribution, teaching me much that I did not know. Few people alive in Britain 40 years ago will forget the scenes of thousands of Ugandan Asians being uprooted from their homes and arriving in Britain. In August 1972, 60,000 people were given just 90 days to leave their homes, their businesses and their country after a senseless decree by a brutal dictator, Idi Amin.
Looking back at that fateful time, we know that the UK acted swiftly. Amin announced on 4 August 1972 that there would be no room in Uganda for British Asians. Preparations began immediately in the UK for receiving those Ugandan Asians who had British passports. By 18 September the first 193 British Asians from Uganda had arrived at Stansted Airport. By 17 November more than 27,000 Ugandan Asians had arrived in the UK. In the first year—1972-73—a total of 38,500 Ugandans Asians came to Britain. I learnt about this event as history. It has been fascinating today in your Lordships’ House to hear of it as an event that so many noble Lords lived through.
My noble friend Lord Popat touched on the huge efforts to bring thousands of people to this country in that short period. He also mentioned the kindness that they were met with on arrival—of the charities waiting at Stansted and those who supported them, put them up and helped them get back on their feet. It was fascinating to hear from my noble friend Lord Dykes about his role as a local MP at that time, and it was interesting to hear from my noble friend Lord Popat about the late Conservative Prime Minister Edward Heath’s photograph proudly hanging in the living rooms of Ugandan Asians. I wonder how many recent Prime Ministers can imagine that their image hangs on people’s walls and is held in such esteem.
I thank my noble friend Lord Cormack for his contribution both today and at the time, when he supported a Prime Minister who was, as he said, “doing the right thing”. While many Ugandan Asians were forced to leave everything behind, Amin could not force them to relinquish their strength, their skills and their flair as entrepreneurs. They brought them here in abundance and we see the evidence every day. These qualities were referred to by my noble friend Lord Steel of Aikwood.
Just three months after the refugees had begun arriving, 1,000 employers had offered jobs to the newcomers. By 2002 it was estimated that Ugandan Asians had created 30,000 jobs in Leicester, which was one of the main cities where they settled in the early 1970s. In fact, Ugandan Asians now make up about 11% of employers in the city. The noble Lord, Lord Bach, referred to Leicester as “God’s own city”. I come from Yorkshire, which—I have it on good authority—is God’s own county, so I may not be able to agree with the noble Lord in his assessment of Leicester. However, we can both agree that the positives of Leicester, created both for and by Ugandan Asians, far outweigh what may have been some early mistakes.
Today we see Ugandan Asians making their mark in every corner of society: in politics with my noble friend Lord Popat and the honourable Members in the other place Shailesh Vara and Priti Patel, who was the first Asian woman elected for the Conservatives and whose parents came from Uganda; in journalism with the likes of Yasmin Alibhai-Brown and Rupal Rajani; in sport with Mohamed Asif Din playing cricket for Warwickshire; in public services with Tarique Ghaffur becoming Assistant Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police; and of course in business with entrepreneurs such as Zul Virani of Cygnet Properties & Leisure plc, Rumi Verjee, chairman of Thomas Goode & Co, who established Domino’s Pizza in the UK, Naseem and Moez Karsan of Jordans Cereals, Rupin Vadera, CEO of First International Group, and many others, including Jaffer Kapasi, to whom my noble friend Lord Sheikh referred.
In 1997, recognising the vitality lost to Uganda, the President invited the Ugandan Asians to return home. While some families did, most chose to remain in Britain as integrated British Ugandan Asians—one of this country’s greatest success stories. Their story is a lesson to us today about the successes of integration. I recently spoke about the barriers that stop people integrating. I highlighted how much Britons miss out on by failing to utilise the talents of the ethnic communities. The figure was estimated at £8.6 billion a year, but I believe it could be a lot higher. I argued that ethnic minority communities were vital to our future. My noble friend Lady Thatcher once said that,
“a new resilience derived from diversity can only strengthen Britain”.
Today we are in a global race and Britain has a secret weapon: the races from around the globe that make up our diverse nation. These people have ingenuity, resilience, determination and links and networks around the world. As my fellow Minister Don Foster said in his speech in another place earlier today, the Government are committed to promoting and supporting successful integration, and to unleashing all that untapped talent by giving everyone the opportunities they deserve.
So what is the Government’s approach to integration? Our aim is robustly to promote British values such as democracy, the rule of law, equality of opportunity and treatment, freedom of speech and the rights of all men and women to live free from persecution of any kind—values that are clearly apparent in the Ugandan Asian community. It is these values that make it possible for people to live and work together, bridge boundaries between communities and play a full role in society. When there are also opportunities to succeed and a strong sense of personal and social responsibility to the society that has made success possible, the result is a strong community.
We must ensure that all sectors of our diverse society are contributing to the economic vitality of our nation. We want to create the conditions for everyone to play a full part in national and local life. I have said before that the things that stop people getting on are the same things that stop people getting on with each other. The noble Lord, Lord Singh, spoke of integration as being a two-way street. I agree, but we must also tackle the barriers to integration, and afford everyone the opportunities and values that we all take for granted.
The noble Lord, Lord Janner, gave a reflective account of what he understood by integration—to hold on to religion, culture and where you came from but adapt to the place where you now are and consider to be home. We recognise that integration is a local issue and the Government’s role in this approach is to facilitate and set the tone. I want to give you a flavour of the 30 or so projects we are supporting.
People of faith—Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and others—are called by their religious beliefs to serve their communities and neighbourhoods, and as a Government we are committed to promoting and celebrating this record of service. We also want to help link up the social action undertaken by different faiths to maximise the impact on those in need. So this year, to celebrate the Queen’s 60 years of service to the country, we facilitated the Year of Service programme, with each faith in turn hosting a day or days of volunteering and inviting people of other faiths to join in. Around 500 projects around the country have been part of the Year of Service and I pay tribute to all those who have taken part. We are looking for ways to harness this enthusiasm and help ensure that there are further opportunities for faith-based volunteering in future.
Separately, we continue to work with the Church Urban Fund on the Near Neighbours programme, taking advantage of the existing infrastructure and experience of the Church of England. We have invested £5 million over three years to support local projects in four areas of high deprivation, which bring people of different faiths together to improve understanding and improve neighbourhoods. So far, more than 300 local projects have received grants of up to £5,000 and there are also training programmes for community activities and faith leaders.
We recognise that English language skills are fundamental to people’s ability to participate in our society, to break down barriers and do all the everyday things that we take for granted. We have already provided more than £8 million to 35 ESOL providers—mainly further education colleges—in 19 areas of England with the highest demand for English language training, and we plan to do more to support those who most need to improve their English skills.
The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, referred to the issue of students. Let me be clear: there is no limit on students coming into this country. If you are a genuine student wanting to study a genuine course in a genuine university, this country is open to any such applications. The noble Lord also asked about the Asian cuisine sector. I can inform him that we are taking forward the Asian cuisine policy specifically to encourage home-grown culinary talent. We are offering support through the Department for Communities and Local Government and BIS to support training and scholarships to bring bright young people from all communities together to support this industry.
The noble Lord makes an important point, but I am sure that he would also agree that we sometimes find that the people coming to work in the communities where this demand is needed are the same communities where there are the highest levels of youth unemployment. It is therefore absolutely right that we invest in our own young people to take up these opportunities.
I am delighted to see so many events taking place to recognise the contribution of our Ugandan Asian communities. The India Overseas Trust and the British Uganda Asians Core Committee have arranged a number of commemoration events that have been taking place since September in London and Leicester. There was a speech by Shri Praful Patel in east London on 13 October and a thanksgiving event in Leicester on 16 October. Many further events are planned for the full year up to September 2013, as well as an exhibition organised by the New Greenham Arts Centre. I would urge noble Lords to participate.
I end my remarks by praising my noble friend Lord Popat for securing this debate. He has given us the chance to reflect on the enormous contribution of his community—our community—which turned dispossession into opportunity and tragedy into success; a community whom we proudly call the British Ugandan Asians.
Lord Popat
My Lords, I am humbled by the Minister’s excellent summing up and her comments about the Ugandan Asian community. This 40th anniversary is always going to bring mixed emotions: sadness, regret and a wonder of what might have been, but also pride, delight and inspiration. I was very proud to tell my story about the success of my community in your Lordships’ House and am delighted and inspired to have heard today from so many Peers with such a wide range of experience of the Ugandan Asian community.
Britain is an amazing country. It has been a wonderful home to the Ugandan Asians, who are—and will always consider themselves—proud to be British. I beg to move.
Economy: Growth
Lord Heseltine
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their response to the Report No Stone Unturned in Pursuit of Growth.
Lord Gardiner of Kimble
My Lords, this is a time-limited debate and the limit for Back-Benchers is three minutes. I respectfully remind the House that this means that when the clock shows three minutes the speaker has already reached their permitted limit.
Lord Heseltine
My Lords, it is eight months since I set out my remit from the Government to comment on their national agenda for growth. A team of officials across Whitehall provided unlimited access to any department. No attempt was made to constrain or censure my comments. I thank the Government for that unique privilege. I am greatly indebted to the talented and dedicated team of officials who enabled me to produce a report regarded, even by those who disagree with its conclusions, as professional and well presented.
It has been suggested to me that my report should have been more focused on a limited number of targets. I do not accept that. The challenge we face is too immediate and too comprehensive. Any adequate response must involve the broad range of our institutions and our people. That is why I stress the leadership of the Prime Minister, the need for a comprehensive growth agenda, the involvement of every government department as appropriate and, critically, a central capability to ensure the delivery of the promises involved in such a strategy.
Yesterday, the Chancellor of the Exchequer directed most of his response to my central theme of localism. I am most encouraged by this and by his promise of a full response in the spring.
Uniquely, of all advanced economies, this country relies on central government and its bureaucracies to initiate, determine and administer economic policy. I believe there are consequences from this: the minimum of local initiative, the almost total absence of incentive for localities to add to government funding from their own or from outside resources, and a conformity of practice that ignores the diversity of local economies.
My report outlines an alternative concept. I argue that our local economies should be more driven by local factors. They should engage a wider involvement of local leaders and use competition to attract additional, non-governmental funding. As envisaged, most of the localist agenda should be led by the local enterprise partnerships. The Government have now made available sufficient funding to ensure their ability to do this. If any local authorities are still uncertain about this partnership with the private sector, I believe that the need to bid from a single fund will persuade them to participate, although my own view is that most of them will need no such encouragement. Against that background, their local people would not be impressed by the failure to seize such an opportunity; and, of course, such a failure would strengthen the case of those who, at every turn, argue that only central quangos or departments can be relied on to deliver quality of service.
I had, then, to consider the response of the private sector to a localist initiative. We talked to each of the groups that represent the private sector. We also looked overseas at the support available in competing economies. Our findings were published in an annexe to the main report and our conclusions were as bleak as those first reached by Lord Devlin, who conducted a similar exercise in 1972. At home and abroad, other countries have developed different but comprehensive support for their small and medium enterprises. This Government have set out an ambitious target to increase our exports to £1 trillion by the year 2020. The Prime Minister, on recent visits to Brazil and India, two of our target markets, found that there were no British chambers of commerce there at all. Led by my noble friend Lord Green, this Government have moved swiftly to remedy this problem. In the first instance he is working on 20 key markets, and he has appointed a number of new trade envoys. I think that is excellent, and I am very much in agreement with the remarks of my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford and of my noble friend Lord Green himself in an earlier debate in this House today.
However, we need the same sense of urgency at home. Chambers of commerce, as they are now constituted, represent only a fraction of our companies. Let me give just two examples: Birmingham has fewer than 3,000 members; Milan has 350,000 members. As the noble Lord, Lord Haskins, knows, as he was present at the meeting in Humberside, where I discovered these figures, the chamber there has 1,000 members. The Federation of Small Businesses has 1,000 members. There are 70 entrepreneurs who have formed a breakaway group; that is 2,070 firms. There are 40,000 firms on Humberside.
An important route to the export market is to reach out to the overwhelming majority of companies that actually do not export. The British Chambers of Commerce’s own analysis revealed that 58% of exporting companies did so because overseas customers approached them in the first place. This is not exactly what we might call entrepreneurial salesmanship.
It is my belief that we need to provide more sophisticated services to support our small and medium enterprises across the range. They need to be private sector-led. Membership of chambers should remain voluntary, but it should be sufficiently attractive to draw more members. They should signpost advisory services, they should be involved in the provision of mentoring opportunities, they should encourage local procurement and they should provide a vehicle for the delivery of central departments' services.
The simple test is to ensure that our companies are supported by the same quality of services that our competitors enjoy overseas, whether it be the Small Business Administration in the United States of America or the more state-orientated proposals on the continent of Europe. The British Chambers of Commerce and its associated member chambers have now communicated to the Government their enthusiastic endorsement of such an approach in this country. I very much hope that this will be reflected in the Government’s response in the spring.
The Chancellor was good enough to say that the report has attracted wide support, and much work was already under way in the localist agenda. Greater Manchester has pioneered the concept of a combined authority. Liverpool negotiated the first city deal. The noble Lord, Lord Adonis, is working in the north-east on how to make progress there. More specifically, Andy Street, the managing director of John Lewis and chairman of the West Midlands and Solihull LEP, and Sir Albert Bore, leader of Birmingham City Council, have asked the Prime Minister whether I can work with them to develop proposals along the lines of my report, which the Government could consider as they reach conclusions. Such work would obviously include and involve the Birmingham chamber of commerce in exploring a wider role. I hope very much that the Prime Minister will agree to this suggestion and I fully recognise that it would involve no commitment to accept any proposals that arose from such an initiative.
The Chancellor’s response yesterday seems to have one novel feature. Most government reports are targeted at specific policies, activities and groups. It is easy for most people to feel that it is someone else’s responsibility and has little to do with them. The announcement of the single fund for local economic development and competitive bidding changes that. There are now 39 teams—the LEPs— of talented, motivated local people with the opportunity to attract public money in a way that serves their places, encourages them to raise additional resources and binds the public and private sectors together in a common cause. If I may borrow a phrase, we are all in this together.
Lord Mandelson
My Lords, I warmly congratulate the noble Lord on securing this debate and on his report as a whole. It will not surprise him that I strongly agree with the bulk of it. When I returned to the Government when the financial crisis struck in 2008, my eyes had been opened by my continental experience to what most other sensible Governments do in placing their weight behind the growth of new markets, sectors and technologies in their economies.
This is not, or need not be, dirigisme of the clumsy and counterproductive kind. It is about identifying an economy’s comparative advantages and then maximising the public and private investment in those advantages; removing unnecessary barriers to new and growing businesses; making sure that all the available national and local instruments or interventions of government are acting, as far as possible, in harmony; pump-priming with additional government resource where the market is failing to provide adequate finance; doing some of the heavy lifting in attracting foreign investment in R&D and building domestic supply chains based on this activity; or helping British manufacturers and service providers to enter global supply chains.
The kinds of frustration that the noble Lord will experience in achieving his report’s implementation are, I suspect, the same that I faced. I want to comment briefly on them. Broadly, they are of three kinds. First, there is lethal short-termism—the bane of British government and corporate life, neither of which have a sufficiently long-termist view inculcated into their perspective and working methods. When I embarked on my own policies of industrial activism, I am afraid that the policy horizon of many in government seemed to stretch from the day of policy announcement to around a couple of months before interest was lost. The hope of those who never signed up to the policies in the first place seemed to be that the policies would die through indifference. It therefore requires strong political will in government to counter this. I regret that such stop/go short-termism kicked in again when the change of government came. The coalition, rather than building on what I started, decried Labour’s growth policies and pinned all its hopes on deficit reduction instead.
The second obstruction lies with the Treasury. Its long-held attitude is that smart, strategic, interventionist policies do not work because, in principle, Ministers and markets do not mix. This is coupled with deep scepticism about public borrowing for extra investment which, in its view, simply adds to the country’s borrowing requirement without delivering anything of very much value. Its approach, I am afraid, is to kill the policies at birth when it can. Then, if this fails, it severely cash-limits the measures and makes access to them by businesses so difficult that they are soon shown to have failed. This inbred Treasury attitude simply has to be conquered in order to make any progress.
The third source of obstruction is more latent than malign, and possibly the most difficult to overcome. It is the sheer lack of experience and capability inside government to design and implement the sort of market-based interventionist policies and instruments we need, especially in the financial area. We need to prioritise this capability and recruit it with government—by which I do not mean, incidentally, collecting further centrally based Whitehall officials.
In conclusion, we can and should learn from others, so if I had one piece of advice for my own party, it would be to spend its time while it can looking at others’ experience internationally and, at home, be inventive; build on what exists rather than returning to ground zero and be prepared to take a major leap in ambition, intervention and organisation in government. Nothing short of that will be needed in the huge economic battle we have to continue to take on.
Lord Shipley
Every time I cross the Gateshead Millennium Bridge I think back 25 years to a polluted River Tyne with little economic activity. The transformation has been inspirational. It is the result of public sector intervention through urban development corporations, led largely by local people triggering private sector investment. Those corporations were, of course, the creation of my noble friend Lord Heseltine, who had a compelling vision of what could be achieved in our cities.
That vision is here again in this report: England is too centralised and faster growth cannot be delivered by Whitehall. The Government have taken several steps to address this: city deals, the Localism Act, and enabling local authorities to share in business rate growth. They now need to go a step further so that local enterprise partnerships, the private sector and local authorities working together and empowered by central government can drive growth in their localities.
Most of Whitehall operates in silos and my noble friend Lord Heseltine is right to say that the Government need to think more in terms of places outside London and how to build on their unique strengths. The abolition of government offices in England was a mistake. I do not advocate government offices which centralise public service delivery in their regions, but I do want government offices which bring key Whitehall departments into a single place with a duty to drive growth and unlock barriers to growth.
Such a government office would work as a partner of the private sector, local authorities and LEPs. I agree entirely with my noble friend Lord Heseltine that LEPs must become engines of growth and I welcome the Chancellor signalling yesterday that a greater proportion of growth-related spending would be devolved to LEPs from April 2015 in transport, skills and employment.
Central to this are enhanced roles for FE colleges and the private sector. Recently I was at an event in the new creative quarter in Nottingham. The event was held in New College, Nottingham, a founder member of the Gazelle Colleges Group formed last year by five leading FE colleges in England: New College, North Hertfordshire, Gateshead, City College Norwich and Warwickshire College. There are now 20 of them, all seeking to reshape FE colleges by putting entrepreneurs in a more strategic position and focusing on self-employment and new business development. They are working to align local growth clusters to support business formation and the delivery of appropriate skills. They should be commended for this.
This report has attracted strong support from the private sector, but there was a hint, initially from the British Chambers of Commerce, that the report focused too much on institutions. I do not think that is valid because institutions matter. We need our chambers of commerce to be delivery partners of the LEPs in business support and training, and if the chambers maintain a voluntary membership structure, as they seem to prefer to do, we should create a one-stop shop through the chambers which businesses positively want to join.
A local structure is now emerging composed of LEPs with authority and resources, enhanced private sector support for business, as outlined by my noble friend Lord Heseltine, and local government leading the growth agenda, with all three partners being supported by central government,
Eleven words in this report are vital, although every word is important; that,
“there are some things only government can do to drive growth”.
This report shows us how.
Lord Skidelsky
My Lords, the best thing about the report by the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, is that it reflects a broad agreement that something more than deficit reduction is needed to get the economy growing again. The noble Lord’s enthusiasm to get things done is the thing I have most admired about him over the years. There is a good cartoon on the front of his report, No Stone Unturned. Noble Lords have probably all seen it, but the rock the noble Lord needs to push away ought to have the image of the Chancellor graven on it. The noble Lord proposes a Whitehall pot of £50 billion to be bid for by voluntary partnerships between local authorities and businesses over five years but, as far as I understand it, and I stand to be corrected, the Government are making no extra resources available. Rather, this is a way of getting local responsibility for the spending of money already available to local authorities so there is no assurance of any additional stimulative effect. That is an important defect.
The noble Lord has been anxious not to breach the Chancellor’s deficit reduction programme. In fact, the report explicitly states:
“I believe the Government’s economic strategy is right”,
but it is precisely this that needs to be questioned. We are in an extraordinary position. The main international organisations now all agree that austerity is having a chilling effect on the economies of Europe, yet they also say that there is no alternative. That seems much too passive. The Chancellor alone denies that his deficit reduction policy has any responsibility for the weak performance of the economy. It is all blamed on head winds. I regret to say that the OBR has helped him massage his figures to show that the deficit is coming down and therefore that he is on track, even through the track is five years longer than he thought it would be in 2010. As Chris Giles notes in today’s Financial Times,
“had the OBR shown teeth, Mr Osborne would have failed on all his fiscal targets”.
The only thing worth talking about today is the validity of the targets themselves and the theory of the economy on which they are based, but that is the last thing this House seems to be willing to discuss. I hope we will soon be given more than three minutes per speaker to address the larger issue.
Lord Baker of Dorking
My Lords, the essence of the Heseltine report is the growth and wealth of the economy over the next 50 years. We all know that it will not come from banking services and real estate but from technological innovation, inventions and the capacity to make goods and services that the rest of the world wants to buy, but there is a massive skills shortage. The Royal Academy of Engineering and the Engineering Employers’ Federation have recently forecast that by 2020 there will be a shortage of 1.25 million professional scientists, engineers and technicians in this economy. If we have that, we cannot meet any of the targets that the Chancellor set yesterday.
The only educational institutions that are trying to meet that demand are the colleges that I have been pioneering for four years, which started under Labour, as the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, will remember: university technical colleges. They are for 14 to 18 year- olds. There are 600 students. They are employer-led, university supported, and the youngsters do up to two days per week practical work.
The first one, which has operated for two years in December, was the most successful school in the country. Every youngster at 16 or 18 got a job, an apprenticeship or a place at college or university. We have five colleges open; 33 approved and 21 applied for. We need masses more of these colleges—seriously a large number. They accord very much with the spirit of the Heseltine report as they are employer led. Hitachi wants one in Durham because it is building a factory for 700 staff to build rolling stock and there are simply not enough skilled technicians in that area to fill the factory.
In Salisbury the LEP, the agency my noble friend is quite rightly using, came to us and said there was a skills shortage there because of the redeployment of the Army from Germany and the building of new maintenance depots, so together with the local employers, the University of Southampton and local people it was going to apply for one.
My point is that if we do not fill this skills shortage, you can forget all the targets because we will simply stagnate. This is the single most important thing we have to do. Matthew Hancock, the Minister for Skills in my noble friend’s department today issued a statement setting out the policy for the next two years. In particular, he said that the LEPs should be given a strategic policy for skills policy. That is going to be very important. I hope that they will bid for some of the money that has been suggested and have some money of their own. This is singly one of the most important things we can do. Without those skilled people, unless we import from overseas, we will meet none of our targets.
Lord Haskel
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, has form on industrial policy and I am delighted to see that he has carried it with him into this report. Instead of just market forces, he speaks about all aspects of industrial strategy and what it should look like. I particularly welcome his emphasis on co-operation—Government, business, technology, education, finance and society all working together and all interrelated, aligned in a trajectory directed towards growth, leaving no stone unturned. At least I think that is what the cover says.
He calls for all government departments to develop a growth agenda. He wants the Government to help industry to create winners. He wants the Government to tilt business towards British industry. I absolutely agree. He wants the financial sector to play its part in this to serve business and industry rather than itself. I agree.
He wants to help the education system to create the STEM graduates the noble Lord, Lord Baker, has just told us about. He wants to do something about the one in four adults who are functionally innumerate. Who could not agree? We are again reminded that we enjoy the fruits of investment in science and technology and research planted by earlier generations. Of course, we have a similar obligation to the generations that come after us.
The noble Lord speaks of localism. He wants to bring back the importance of place and the Government have responded with money for the LEPs. It is a pity they did away with the RDAs because then it would have happened a lot more quickly.
He explained why he wants to strengthen the local chambers of commerce but society now plays an even more important part in industrial strategy. It plays an important part in getting people to work together. During the past 20 years, we have developed clusters where we can stimulate and support each other and speed things up. We have developed knowledge transfer networks. Publicly funded science is becoming open source. The minimum wage is developing into a local living wage.
Some employers have kept people in work by reducing working hours to see them through the hard times instead of sacking everybody. We have some highly productive factories, not only because of investment, but also because employers and workers see themselves as one instead of two sides of industry.
Business now has to be socially responsible because society rejects clothing from sweat shops, it prefers products and services that are environmentally friendly and fair trade, and it rejects those firms whose tax arrangements are seen to be unfair. Marks & Spencer wins prizes for its Plan A.
We probably have to shine more light under this stone better to understand how society has to play its part in our industrial strategy. I think that goes beyond localism.
Lord Bilimoria
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, has always been known as a man of action. From the day of his long-awaited maiden speech—after more than 10 years’ patience on behalf of your Lordships, to be precise, and when I had the privilege of paying the tributes to him—he has hit the ground running. Within barely seven months, he has produced his No Stone Unturned—In Pursuit of Growth report. The Economist teasingly referred to it as “Tarzanomics”.
To his credit, the noble Lord is absolutely right to conclude that:
“There are no easy or short term ways to beat the world’s most competitive economies”.
The suggestion to create a huge pool of money, endorsed by the Autumn Statement yesterday, to be devolved locally is, in theory, very good. The promotion of public-private partnerships is excellent. I am proud to be the founding chairman of the UK-India Business Council, which is funded by UK Trade & Investment and the private sector. I know that the strength of the UKIBC is that, as a public sector organisation alone it would not be effective, and as a private sector organisation alone it would not be effective. It is effective only because of the collective efforts of the public and private sectors—from British and Indian business to UKTI and Foreign and Commonwealth Office teams in the UK and across India.
My worry is that, in spite of what the noble Lord, Lord Haskel, has said, the RDAs created by the previous Government were not considered to be that effective. The Learning and Skills Council, which was created at great expense, was disbanded. These were great ideas in theory but difficult to implement in practice. They simply resulted in the creation of another layer of bureaucracy and another opportunity to waste money.
In building a business from scratch, I have seen that ideas are one thing but execution is what makes it happen. Will the Government confirm whether LEPs are local enterprise partnerships or, as the report refers to them, local economic partnerships? I hope it means both.
I was very worried about the report’s approach to foreign investment. Just look at what Tata has done since 2006. It has invested more than £10 billion and has performed a miracle in turning around Jaguar Land Rover, which now has made a profit of more than £1.5 billion. This is in spite of the previous Government turning it down for the funding that it so desperately needed in the depths of the recession. I hope that the Government will not take up the insinuations in the report. We have always been one of the most open economies in the world and we need constantly and desperately to attract foreign investment.
In the report, I was delighted to see the Government being asked to deal with illegal immigration, which they have failed to do so far. UKBA has been absolutely failing. However, will the Government also rethink their immigration policy, which is damaging British business and higher education?
In conclusion, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, on his report but will it really get this Government creating institutions that are as effective as the American Small Business Administration, to which the noble Lord referred? It has been instrumental in supporting small businesses, not just with advice but by providing finance to the tune of billions of dollars a year in a sustained manner for decades. Will it be as effective as the German chambers of commerce, to which every business in Germany belongs? If not, I fear that this report will be another well intentioned, half-way step when what we as a nation desperately need is a giant step forward.
Lord Wolfson of Aspley Guise
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, on his excellent and energetic report. However, I should like to add a different perspective. In doing so, I declare an interest: I am the serving CEO of a FTSE 100 retailer that employs around 46,000 people. Our problem is not cash or the availability of funds; we generate £240 million more than we need to invest in the business or to pay our dividends. Our problem is not finance. Along with many large companies, we are able to raise finance on the bond markets at prices that we have never seen before—4% for 10-year money. Nor is the problem a lack of opportunity for investment; we have identified 1.2 million square feet of shops that we would like to open and we would like to employ 5,000 more people.
The problem is that all too often the Government are getting in the way. Next year, of that 1.2 million square feet, we will open barely 250,000 square feet. In the vast majority of cases, the problem is the planning system. The issue is not just that it says no but the time that it takes to say yes. In one shop, it took nine months just to get planning permission to build storage for stock. We then had to wait three months to see if we were going to be judicially reviewed. That is one year in which 100 people did not have jobs because of our planning system.
The problem, it seems to me, is that, while we have some great councils in this country, there are far too many people involved in our planning system who simply do not understand wealth creation. They do not understand that building new shops and creating new jobs and new services for local communities actually creates wealth. Far too often they say to me what one council official I was talking to said. We have a £2 million shop in the town centre and we wanted to put an additional shop outside the town. He said, “Surely you’ll just spread the same amount of trade over the two shops”. The shop outside the town centre will take, conservatively, £20 million. He did not understand the potential. Oddly, he did understand the inverse. He understood that to close shops is to destroy wealth and deprive people of local services.
That imbalance of perception courses through the veins of our planning system. It means that we have a planning system driven by people who are profoundly pessimistic about the ability to create wealth. Their belief that one cannot create new wealth by opening new shops, for example, means that they stop us opening new shops. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy and extremely dangerous. In particular, it has led to a hugely damaging zoning system that puts houses in places where people do not want to live and shops in places where they do not want to shop.
Noble Lords will all see an example of that if they drive down a motorway over the next week; if they look to the side they will see, at some point on their journey, a brand new housing estate; neat new-build houses, built where the planners have put them. The planners cannot see, because they do not understand wealth creation, that by building houses in horrible places they destroy wealth.
If we are to have a thriving economy, my belief is that there is enormous pent-up energy in the private sector that can be released. All the planning system needs to do is let us build homes where people want to live, and of the type they want to live in, and build shops where they want to shop and offices where they want to work. If the planning system were driven by those principles, we would have a far more vibrant and effective economy.
Lord Hollick
My Lords, on page 17 of his excellent report, the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, sets out in graphic detail the persistently poor level of UK productivity compared with our main competitors. His response is, characteristically, to lead from the front. He has demonstrated that one energetic and open-minded person who believes that the state has a key role to play in promoting economic growth can, in six months, come up with a telling analysis of our growth crisis—and it is a crisis—and recommend 89 generally sensible and practical proposals to address that crisis, a task that has eluded a platoon of Business Ministers for two and a half years.
Investment in infrastructure, plant, equipment and skills are, as the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, points out, essential to improving our productivity. Yesterday the Chancellor made welcome moves in that direction, but far more ambitious measures are required in order to meet the estimated £350 billion infrastructure investment needed over the next 30 years, according to McKinsey. Such measures include an infrastructure bank which can benefit from record low long-term borrowing rates. Road pricing, long advocated across this House, would spur large-scale investment in our aging motorway networks. These measures as well as the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, to help public and private pension funds, insurers and banks to finance infrastructure instead of buying gilts must all be energetically pursued.
The noble Lord is surprisingly reticent about additional measures to stimulate demand, which is the key to growth and investment. The failed efforts to promote lending will continue to fail unless and until businesses can see increased demand to justify taking on more debt or, preferably, raising more equity. There are fiscally neutral ways of stimulating demand. Is using the proceeds of the 4G auction to pay down debt the best strategic use of this windfall during the worst economic crisis of modern times? Why are the Government still taxing houses on the basis of the 1991 valuation when the proceeds arising from a modest revaluation at the top level would finance the reduction of VAT on home refurbishment or a further £200 on the income tax threshold?
The noble Lord’s call for empowered localism to replace the inefficient and bureaucratic Whitehall is welcome and was warmly embraced by the Chancellor. The history of local versus regional versus central delivery is littered with disappointment and failure, all too often driven by political fashion rather than by proven performance. Recommendation 7 hits the nail on the head when it calls for LEP boards to have,
“the necessary skills and expertise to deliver their expanded functions”.
The recent excoriating report by the Public Accounts Committee into the competence of the Regional Growth Fund provides a stark and timely warning of what can go awry.
The noble Lord rightly highlights stability as an essential precondition to economic transformation and goes on to cite our relationship with Europe as a prime example of the need for stability. Now that the noble Lord enjoys the warm embrace of both the Prime Minister and the Chancellor, we can be more confident that a rational voice in support of developing a sustainable relationship with the European Union, our major economic and trade partner, will be heard and, hopefully, heeded.
Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts
My Lords, in the three minutes available to me, I begin by congratulating my noble friend on his remarkable tour d’horizon and its 89 recommendations. I want to focus on just two issues: the malign impact of regulatory overlap, in his recommendation 44, and the role of the Government as a commissioner and purchaser in recommendations 36 and 37.
First, on regulatory overlap, during the two reports that I have done for the Government, in particular Unshackling Good Neighbours, which focused on the regulatory burdens on smaller firms, charities and voluntary groups, it became clear that there is a great tendency for regulators to take in each others’ dirty washing. Ofsted asks about the frequency of testing electrical appliances, the Charity Commission about CRB checks. Both those issues are very important, but they are the subject of separate statute law and have their own enforcement procedures and authorities. Firms, especially smaller ones, are vulnerable to repeated questions about whether they have checked this or that—questions that very often are not set in context, do not need to be asked and are not accurate. They leave the firm feeling that, to be on the safe side, everything should be checked. As a result, the default option becomes, “If in doubt, check everything”. Per contra, if my noble friend’s ambitions are to be realised, we need more judgment and less process.
On commissioning and purchasing, of course we have to ensure value for money for taxpayers, but purchasers and commissioners need to consider how many tenderers need to be invited against the size of the contract. There can be only one winner, and the economic frictional costs of many losers are considerable. Purchasers and commissioners also need to consider the cost of tendering in relation to the value of the contract. In Unshackling Good Neighbours, we suggested 2% of the value of the contract up to £500,000 and 1% thereafter. When a service is being provided, commissioners also need to consider the annual cost to the provider of the monitoring. Again, we suggested 4% up to £500,000 and 2% thereafter.
Further, commissioners should not change their methods of measurement midstream. To do so adds exponentially to the costs of SMEs. All this may appear very nitty-gritty but, unless the Government are able to agree centrally and locally and stick to some performance yardsticks, much of the potential benefit of their purchasing power will be dissipated.
Lord Giddens
My Lords, there was quite an amusing headline in the satirical magazine Private Eye recently, which touches on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky. It went something like, “After four years of intensive study, the IMF has concluded that austerity leads to austerity”. We can all agree that we now need to focus on growth, but not just any old growth—it has to be environmentally sustainable and evenly spread. There is no point if it benefits only the top 0.1% of income earners.
There is much to agree with in the outstanding report from the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine. We should think in a radical and adventurous way about our economic future. Something utterly dramatic is happening at the cutting edge of manufacture, perhaps equivalent to or much more than Arkwright’s spinning jenny all those years ago: computers have crossed the line from the digital world and are intervening in the world of reality itself. This is perhaps one of the most momentous changes ever to happen in human productive activity. Although it is in its early stages, 3D printing can already make an enormous range of items, from engineering parts to dental crowns. At MIT, Neil Gershenfeld is working on computers that will be able to fabricate not just single items but complete functional systems. For example, his aim is to make a plane that can fly right out of the computer, as he says—and he does not regard this as a Utopian project.
This might be thought to be fanciful but much of it is already here. It is documented in a very detailed book by Chris Anderson called Makers: The New Industrial Revolution. Crucially, it reverses the assumption that manufacture will inevitably be outsourced to low-cost countries.
In Barcelona, where youth unemployment is more than 50%, the city is setting up digital fabrication workshops across different neighbourhoods, encouraging young people to train in them. The aim, in Gershenfeld’s words, is for the city to be,
“globally connected for knowledge but self-sufficient for what it consumes”.
This, to me, is the cutting edge of what could be a tremendous global revolution. Why should we not think along the same lines for Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool, which brook so large in the noble Lord’s report?
The Earl of Lytton
My Lords, this is an enormously important report. It sets sheer practicality in a philosophical context, and I hang my hat on that.
By virtue of my professional business and chamber of commerce interests, I have spent much of my life, like Voltaire’s antihero, Candide, noting both cause and effect while observing that current times are not the best of all possible worlds. The elephant in the room is the unnecessarily adversarial nature of much of our national politics, legal system and regulation. This creates risks and, in public administration terms, the response often seems to be inward-looking and protectionist, sometimes as turf wars but primarily in defence of systems rather than outcomes for growth. This has consequences. The Federation of Small Businesses surveys support my own long-held view that small businesses in particular still bear disproportionate burdens in terms of regulation, employment and tax treatment. For example, nobody wins by turning employment rights into a legal battlefield and the general costs to small businesses are, I believe, unsustainable.
The informer network of HMRC has been likened in this week’s press to the Stasi. The taxman’s reputation for aggressive treatment of small businesses is well known. While this department formally accepts some tax avoidance schemes—it has a box for it on its forms—it is an avid player in a game of catching out the ignorant, weak and unwary, even if honest, while apparently shrinking from bigger issues and slipperier customers. Similar generic shortcomings, dual standards and ignorance occur downstream in every aspect of business life.
On the plus side, though, is the growth in microbusinesses. Many are home-based and rural-based, outsourcing much of what they need and requiring little direct employment, and thus avoiding workplace pitfalls. Many are not VAT-registered or incorporated. The internet facilitates this virtual world of micro-commerce. West Sussex, where I live, apparently has 27,000 of them, but no one knows quite how many make up this major element of local GDP. Is this simply opting out in favour of lifestyle choices? Is it a consequence of obstructive and ephemeral laws and regulations? Is it a desire to keep beneath the radar? Or is it a new economic dawn? What might it mean for national economic policy?
I applaud the efforts that the Government are already making to cut red tape. The UK remains a great place to start a business. It also needs to be a great place to grow one on. This splendid report shows that we need a revolution in regulatory attitudes and I hope that the Government are listening.
Lord Sheikh
My Lords, the United Kingdom finds itself at an economic crossroads. This is due not just to the current financial crisis but also to the fact that changes need to be taken in our business and industrial landscape. I congratulate my noble friend Lord Heseltine on the submission of his excellent report. A renewed focus on overseas trade is severely overdue as we cannot continue to buy so much more than we sell. Our industries must be world leading and globally competitive, thus attracting inward investment and creating the potential for us to increase exports.
I was pleased that this report placed an emphasis on the long-term stability of our science and research sector, and how we market it. We need to better support and stimulate the creativity we hold within, and ensure that this is better promoted to the rest of the world.
I would also draw attention to the report’s focus on the need for our government departments to build better relationships with the private sector and with each other. So much can be gained from government embracing private sector business in a way that works with it rather than alongside it. We must give businesses confidence that the Government understand their concerns and share their aims. I agree with my noble friend Lord Heseltine that wealth creation should be the business of all government departments. BIS and the Treasury cannot capitalise on every opportunity for growth and wealth creation without the help of those in other fields. I am therefore in favour of departments contributing to a wider growth strategy through which they could join up their thinking and complement each other.
The notion of localism is also extremely important and we must capitalise on the progress that the Government are already making on this. I was pleased to hear the Chancellor accept the recommendation that more of the funding for locally tailored schemes will go into a general pot for which local enterprise partnerships can bid. True innovation is released when it is free from central constraints, and it is the job of central government to promote and support this. Competitive bidding for such funds will encourage local communities to raise their game, give the successful bidders freedom to spend in ways that better support their local areas and, ultimately, build a nation of more ambitious and creative communities. There needs to be a greater level of co-ordination between government and the private sector, and indeed within the Government themselves. There also needs to be full recognition of the benefits of allowing strong, independent and dynamic local economies to flourish, supported but not controlled by national government.
In conclusion, I agree that we should think hard about our industrial approach, with a fresh examination of a wider economic landscape and a reshaping of our education system. We also need to take a creative look at the skills agenda.
Lord Monks
My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, rightly says in chapter 7 of his report:
“If there is an upside to the worst … crisis of modern times, it is the emergence of an audience for deep seated and radical proposals”.
Indeed, we cannot just go back to business as usual, pre-2007. We know that we must rebalance our economy towards innovation, manufacturing, infrastructure and the weaker regions. We must save more and invest more. We should not continue to treat the City of London with exaggerated reverence, adopting an almost protectionist zeal that we do not apply to any other sector. The City can be an asset but the banks can be near-lethal to the country, as they were in 2007-08.
The noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, details measures that aim to get the UK economy match fit. For starters, this has to be done up to the level of our neighbours on the other side of the North Sea—Germany, the Netherlands, Flanders and the Nordic states. They have high productivity, positive balances of payments, strong social states, excellent training systems, scope for local and regional initiative, and influential trade unions. Those neighbours are savers and investors.
We have covered our lack of match-fitness in the past, sometimes with North Sea oil revenues and then with the boom in the financial services sector. There are no further windfalls in view and no more short-term fixes except, perhaps, devaluation, of which we have had seven against the deutschmark or the euro since the end of the war. We must surely not rely on devaluation for our future strategy. By the way, the last thing we need is a self-imposed exile from the EU unless it bends to our model. That would be, in effect, a sort of voluntary Dunkirk—and that was a defeat.
Many of the recommendations of the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, nod in the direction of Germany and the lessons that that country provides for the UK. I add one more: the advantage of codetermination over adversarial relations at work. These codetermination principles seem outlandish to many in the UK, but they keep managements more long-termist and less inclined to help themselves to a disproportionate share of company profits. They guide unions in the right direction, too.
The nation owes much to the long period of public service of the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine. I think of Docklands in the 1980s, Manchester in the 1990s after the bomb, and especially Liverpool over a long period, as well as many other matters, some of which have been mentioned. With this report, we are in his debt once again, and I urge the Government to act on its central recommendations.
Lord Haskins
My Lords, as the chair of the Humber local enterprise partnership, it would be remiss of me not to say that I entirely support this proposal from the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, and I congratulate him on it. It was a very interesting symbolic moment when he chose to launch it in Birmingham Town Hall, which many noble Lords will recall was where Joe Chamberlain made all his speeches. While the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, was giving his speech, the figure of Joe Chamberlain was standing over him, reminding us of the past.
The talk of the erosion of local government and the move towards central government is one aspect that I should like to mention. I can also point to the talk of the erosion of corporate Britain away from the provinces and towards the centre, into London. In 1906, some 85% of the headquarters of the top 100 companies were outside London. Today, I guess that there are less than 10. We have seen over a period great companies such as Rowntree’s being devoured by Nestlé, an old international company, and the local identity of Rowntree’s has gone. Aviva thought that Norwich Union was not a great name, so it chose something else. Above all else, the banks have devolved local power to the centre. In the job that I do, it is difficult to make sense of all that. Contrast that with BMW in Munich, Volkswagen in Saxony, Microsoft in Seattle, Coca-Cola in Atlanta and McDonald’s in Chicago. Corporate Britain must learn to let go.
There is a huge attraction in localism. There is better accountability—a case of Whitehall versus City Hall, and I have no doubt where the accountability lies—as well as local knowledge and local experience. The noble Lord, Lord Baker, mentioned the skills problem. It is very important that that is dealt with at a local level and that local needs are met. Localism also means a speedy response, ownership and civic pride. I believe that the LEPs will develop into something called city regions, which will probably have more credibility than the regional development agencies because people identify with cities. If people identify with cities, there is a chance. Apart from in Yorkshire, people have never identified with regional development agencies.
However, the LEPs have to demonstrate that they are competent to take greater responsibility, getting talented people into public life once again and getting local authorities to pool their resources—something that is not very easy in my part of the world. Getting local business associations and local authorities to work together is, again, not very easy. Big businesses must devolve much more authority to the local level so that people such as me can get answers on big economic decisions at the local level, rather than having to go back to daddy.
Lord Northbrook
My Lords, I welcome this opportunity to debate the important report produced by my noble friend Lord Heseltine but I regret that the usual channels have not allowed the opportunity of a full three or four-hour debate. To limit contributions to three minutes makes each contribution only a speed-dating effort in addressing such an important publication.
The Government gave only the briefest of initial responses to the report until yesterday, so I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say. The Government are planning to strip Whitehall of about £58 billion of business support funding and place it in the hands of local enterprise partnerships, LEPs, in the biggest act of financial devolution ever seen. The CBI has commented:
“LEPs have so far lacked the power and resources to impact local growth”.
Given that this review highlights a number of key areas in which LEPs can support private sector activities, it is pleasing to hear that they have been given appropriate resources to help them to meet this challenge. Does the Minister believe that they have the powers and the skills?
The British Chambers of Commerce generally welcomes the report:
“Lord Heseltine’s analysis of the state of the UK economy is compelling”,
it says, yet his report for action,
“focuses too much on institutions, rather than on the fundamental barriers to business growth. Ministers should think carefully before committing to a restructuring of government, and focus first on the key restraints facing the real economy: the availability of growth finance, practical help for our exporters, our creaking physical infrastructure, and an education … system that responds to businesses needs. Government can best support enterprise by collaborating with business to get the basics right”.
Does the Minister agree with its observations?
The Federation of Small Businesses also welcomes the report by the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine. It suggests, however:
“The boards of LEPs must represent all sizes and sectors of local businesses. Otherwise they will fail. The FSB does not believe that the chambers should be legislated as they do not represent all businesses, particularly self-employed and micro firms”.
It concludes:
“To create a stable environment for businesses to thrive, the Government should look to the success of the US Small Business Administration—SBA—to coordinate small business policy, such as lending, procurement and exporting”.
I will end by congratulating the Government on three measures in the Pre-Budget Report that I believe will encourage growth. First, the increase in capital allowances from £50,000 to £250,000 is an excellent signal to manufacturers and has rightly been praised by key industrialists such as Sir Anthony Bamford of JCB. Secondly, the cut in corporation tax of 1% is equally welcome to increase UK competitiveness. Finally, the extension of the empty property rate relief is a measure to be much welcomed.
Lord Desai
My Lords, the Heseltine report is not just for Christmas and not just for austerity; it is for a much longer period than that. Some of the things that the noble Lord has pointed out have been constant and I have been hearing about them ever since I arrived here 45 years ago. We are too centralised and there is too little power in the regions and local authorities. There is too much regional inequality and London is too powerful compared to the regions. You can see that in the noble Lord’s diagrams.
The noble Lord is a paradox. He is a centralist who wants to decentralise by using central power and he is strongly in favour of state intervention to encourage private business. It is an interesting model. If we are serious about decentralisation the first thing to do is to decentralise Whitehall. There is no reason why all the ministries should be in London. There is no reason why Local Government, Transport or Business, Innovation and Skills should be in London. Once upon a time the technology was such that they needed to be near each other. Now with cyber technology none of them needs to be near the others. We can completely decentralise government and delocate it. That would be a great step forward in making the regions more powerful and generating more employment in the regions.
As my noble friend Lord Hollick said, if we are serious about local government, we have to give local government income which is independent of central government. The best way to do it would be to do what has been long delayed and revalue property. Property values have not really been revised since the early 1990s. We got into the whole poll tax/council tax dilemma because of the reluctance to revalue properties quinquennially or periodically. If we could do that, given council tax rates, we would generate buoyant incomes for local authorities. They would not need to come to central government for their income and that would allow central government to cut central taxes. If we are serious about localism, we should break up Whitehall into the regions.
Lastly, this is a wonderful opportunity. As we are considering the refurbishment and repair of the Palace of Westminster, let us move Parliament out of London.
Lord Paul
My Lords, I declare an interest as chairman of Caparo Group, an industrial manufacturing company. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, for initiating this debate and add my voice to the plaudits he has received for his report. I have been actively involved in UK industry for more than 40 years. In this time dozens of reports, documents, policy briefs and plans have come and gone. No Stone Unturned in Pursuit of Growth is an outstanding and comprehensive report that reflects the noble Lord’s rare depth of experience in both commerce and public life.
I am glad that the Chancellor has announced that the Government are taking action on the report, although he will respond formally in April. It is a happy coincidence that today’s debate is timed to follow the Autumn Statement. I am glad that the Chancellor is to take some immediate action. Speed is of the essence and I urge the Government to implement the report quickly in its entirety because decentralisation of power to the regions is long overdue. However, we must be careful not to create more layers of bureaucracy, more quangos and more consultants which will produce more inertia, of which there is too much already.
We need to bring together the education and business sectors. Education has been a lifelong interest of mine and I have been active in several institutions of higher education. When I was a student at MIT, I was most impressed by the strong collaboration between business, government-sponsored projects and universities in the United States. Universities get their funding while government projects and industry benefit from first rate research and technology. We in the UK have first-class universities and we need to encourage more collaboration along those lines. I have spoken on this subject many times. Innovative technology will help to build a more dynamic economy that will attract more foreign investment than public relations exercises or cash incentives.
This report has the potential for a dramatic impact on the economic crisis so I strongly endorse it. I hope that the Government act today to pursue its implementation with the same energy, commitment and determination that has been shown by the noble Lord in producing it. I was planning to ask for this debate in my name but, true to his reputation, the noble Lord beat me to it.
Lord Lea of Crondall
My Lords, we are living through a period of the worst economic situation since well before the recession of the 1930s, if one looks at the loss of potential output. We need a massive kick-start. I am 100% in favour of what the noble Lord has done, particularly as he challenges us all in our cultural assumptions. Where will this massive kick-start come from?
We have a catastrophic imbalance and there are so many ways of looking at that imbalance: north-south divide, the City of London versus the sticks, and even the plebs versus the 0.1%. Indeed, someone has described it as a Wimbledon economy. As long as the multinationals have their headquarters here and their wives and husbands—they are gender neutral these days—can be within spitting distance of Wimbledon, that is fine. Transfer pricing and taxation all comes within that package. So the political radicalism that one wishes to bring to this is a matter of taste.
I start from the position that we need a national investment bank. The City of London has some of the best brains in the country. According to the Office for National Statistics, if value-added equals wages and salaries, then the City of London must be hugely productive and have high value-added because it pays itself a lot. There is something wrong with the measure of the economy in that sense of value added. They are not laying golden eggs; they are laying hand grenades and that is not value added in anyone’s book.
My thought is that the City of London ought to provide the best brains, if that is what they are, to make the national investment bank transfer a lot of our savings. Every time you open a newspaper, they are trying to pump £50 billion into long-term loans which do not get spent, but that should make the kick-start. They should work for national or regional investment banks. After all they cannot all wind up as the Archbishop of Canterbury. The heart of the classic Keynesian paradox is that we are spending too little and yet are told every day that we are spending too much. The noble Lord, Lord Skidelsky, rightly continues to remind us of that.
My final point is on Europe. I will set another challenge to the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine. I would like him to look at how much truth there may be in the notion that Europe is getting in the way of industrial policy. I think that there are a lot of myths about this. There are many things that you can do within the rules of the European Community on industrial interventionism, finance and so on. We ought to nail once and for all the idea that we cannot co-operate in Europe and also have an active industrial policy, including a national investment bank. Everyone else is doing it; why cannot we? I echo what my noble friend Lord Mandelson said in that regard.
Baroness Wilcox
My Lords, I thank the Minister for allowing me to speak for a moment from personal experience in support of the call from my noble friend Lord Heseltine for empowering the chambers of commerce. In the 1990s, I went to France to take over the largest fish-canning factory in France, on the docks of the port of Boulogne. I took a new landing and processing method from Britain, and some of our people to work with us. I also took a small fleet to add to the very large fleet that there was already in Boulogne-sur-Mer.
As many noble Lords will know, it is a very busy port for ferries. I was catching pelagic fish that had to be processed within hours. In docks such as those there is a high-pressure atmosphere. When I got there, I was amazed to see that the most important building in the docks was the chamber of commerce, because the chamber there has statutory power. It ran—and runs—the docks. It made an enormous difference. It meant that we could go somewhere to fight our cause. The smallest voices tended to get the biggest listen, because the port was always looking for new businesses to come forward in case it lost control of the movement of any of the cargo that it was dealing with.
When I came back to London, Plymouth and Cornwall, I saw our chambers of commerce struggling with volunteer members in that lovely amateur way in which we like to run the world. It made me realise that we cannot do this any longer. Our chambers of commerce must be empowered to promote British business. We must be able to take our place in continental Europe. It would love us to do so. It cannot believe that our chambers of commerce have no power—and neither should we.
Lord Wood of Anfield
My Lords, the excellent report of the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, paints a vivid picture of some of the problems that have characterised our economy for decades, such as low productivity, poor translation of basic research into goods and services, and technical skills gaps. However, for me the issue that his report brings most to light is the staggering scale of regional inequalities in growth and income. Britain has bigger disparities between regions than any of our major competitors. It is the most regionally unequal country in the EU. GDP per head in the richest region is nine times greater than that in the poorest region—and the regional gap is widening, not shrinking. Since the 2008 recession began, poorer areas have seen income per head fall twice as quickly as in the wealthiest areas. In London alone, the richest 10% have 273 times the wealth of the poorest 10%. This is not just unfair and corrosive of social solidarity; it is holding our economy back. The impact affects us all.
What can be done about this? There are 89 recommendations in the report, but at their heart are three central principles that the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, is urging on us all. The first is the indispensable need for a growth strategy. The noble Lord says that this strategy,
“must send a loud and unequivocal message to the country that the Government takes growth seriously and has a credible strategy”.
I think that it is fair to say that so far the coalition has sent not so much a loud and unequivocal message as something that has oscillated between a mumble and total silence.
The noble Lord’s second principle is the importance of devolving policy responsibility to the regions and localities. His report details a familiar story of excessive centralism and Whitehall silos. Some imagination on getting funding streams both rationalised and decentralised is clearly needed and we are keen to work collaboratively on any proposals with that aim. But what a shame that the bodies that would have been best suited to bear the weight of this agenda, the Regional Development Agencies, were hastily scrapped two years ago in a move that the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, himself said was a mistake last year.
Yesterday, we heard that the Government are minded to make some progress towards single-pot funding for LEPs, which could be promising. But as the noble Lord, Lord Northbrook, said, for devolved funding to work, the bodies that power is devolved to must have the capacity to do the job properly. I am not convinced that LEPs have this capacity and I am not alone, because concerns about their governance, their ability to leverage funding, whether they have procurement contract management skills, under-representation of SME's and other worries are widespread and feature in the noble Lord’s report. Building up this capacity is a crucial precondition for any serious attempt to have a regional growth policy. Will the Minister say what the Government intend to do about that?
Concerns about LEPs seem positively minor compared with the concerns about the Regional Growth Fund. This fund aimed to create 330,000 jobs in its first year. It created 40,000. Two years into its life, only £60 million of the £1.4 billion allocated has reached the front line. The PAC said that its value for money was scandalous. Again, I would like the Minister to tell us how the Government intend to respond to those criticisms.
The final principle, which is at the heart of this report, is the belief that active government, far from being the enemy of enterprise and growth, is indispensable to it. The noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, had the intellectual and political courage to stand up for this idea when it was deeply unfashionable under a Tory Government in the 1980s. My noble friend Lord Mandelson stood up for it in the last few years of the Labour Government, when it was also unfashionable. If there is one legacy of this excellent report for us all, I hope that it is that we rid ourselves of the prejudice that an active industrial strategy is bad economics, and rid ourselves of the error of believing that a laissez-faire approach is good economics.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Lord Marland)
My Lords, this has been a magnificent debate and I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, for initiating it. It must have been wonderful for his grandchildren to witness this great debate.
When the thud of this arrived on my desk and the noble Lord gave us a briefing on it, the words of Caesar came to mind: “Veni, Vidi, Vici”. He came, he saw and he conquered, as he produced this excellent document. It is a capable landscape of the issues and problems that we all face. The most important thing is that it has answers. So often we criticise in society today but we do not have answers.
I will restrict my remarks in this very short time to a response to his document on behalf of the Government. I hope that noble Lords will forgive me for not dealing with their individual questions. I am sure that we can deal with those later. It is fair to say that the Government do not agree with everything the noble Lord said—it would be a rare world if we did—but I was much heartened when he said that the Chancellor's words yesterday were as much as he could have hoped for on the report.
Of course, a great deal of what the noble Lord wrote in this report is also happening within government. In particular, he wants to put in a test case in Birmingham where he is looking for a response for the Prime Minister. I have no intention of shooting the Prime Minister’s fox on this one because the noble Lord is waiting for him to reply, but I have a slight indication that he may be disposed to that as the right thing to do.
The noble Lord talked about a national growth strategy in this fine document, as did the noble Lords, Lord Wood and Lord Mandelson. It is absolutely fundamental that out of all of this we have a national growth strategy. That is what the Government are working to at the moment. Part of that strategy relies on the chambers. The report says that we should enhance the legal status of the chambers. The chambers are indeed at the heart of a British-led recovery. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine, remarks, the chambers themselves are in, at best, a pretty feeble state. They need boosting up. We will return in the spring to his comments on that with an official response, but clearly the direction of travel in boosting the chambers, which we are doing abroad at the moment, needs to happen very extensively in this country, because we have a serious breakdown at the moment.
Strategic relationship management was referred to. We have established 38 strategic relationship partnerships with big companies to lead ourselves out of the mess that we are in. Our ambition is to have 150 relationships by 2015. Rationalisation of trade associations is another issue. Having been the Minister for Intellectual Property and been on the receiving end as some 100 associations bombarded me with information in relation to intellectual property, I cannot help but agree with the noble Lord. That has of course to be led by the industry, but this gives a very helpful nudge.
The noble Lord refers to procurement strategy and procurement specialists within government. He is absolutely right. I was one of the five Ministers who were responsible, under Francis Maude, for renegotiating all government contracts and establishing strategic relationships and partnerships with government suppliers. That will be critical, not only for saving costs but in terms of building relationships. The Government’s commitment to 25% of government contracts going to small and medium-sized enterprises is absolutely key to helping the SMEs forward.
I am on the Civil Service reform board so am much taken by the reference the noble Lord makes to improving management information within government. We have to improve management information, which has not changed since the noble Lord, Lord Mandelson, was in government. We are still deluged by paper, which, in a modern world, should not be the case. There are communication issues within the Civil Service, but it is working hard to find a way forward with that, as indeed it is in commercialising the Civil Service, which is going to be critical to any reform.
A lot of the meat of what the noble Lord says relates to LEPs. I am glad that he feels that LEPs, working alongside stakeholders, are absolutely key to development through our regions. I do not think there is much argument in this House about that. The Government have committed £1.5 billion of funds which LEPs can apply to borrow. We have established 35 LEPs and a wave of city deals—28 already—which should increase employment by 175,000. A lot of work is going on there.
A number of noble Lords have referenced local government, while the noble Lord, Lord Wolfson, referred to planning and getting a much clearer path in that respect. That is very important, especially coming from a top entrepreneur like the noble Lord, who understands it as well as anybody. It is absolutely fundamental that we simplify some of the methods of local government.
On skills, I am a great fan of the UTCs, and we all pay huge tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Baker, for his part in devising them. I have had the privilege of working with him on a few things to do with UTCs and where they could be. They will be part of the regeneration in various areas. In addition to that, the Government have set up a number of skills training programmes and mentoring programmes, such as Get Mentoring, which has 15,000 mentors throughout the country supplying help to businesses starting up. It is all part of reducing that skills gap, as my noble friend Lord Heseltine suggested.
The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, referred to red tape. The one-in, one-out regulation reduction that we have has already saved £850 million of regulation costs to businesses. We must build on that, and we support the recommendations that the noble Lord has made.
In addition, the Government have adopted several key initiatives. We have set up the Green Investment Bank with £3 billion of funding. We have announced a business bank with £1 billion of new funding. We have set up catapults with an investment of £200 million to transform some of the new advanced technologies. We have set up the Business Finance Partnership. We have the Enterprise Capital Funds and the Funding for Lending scheme, as well as a whole raft of infrastructure projects that the Chancellor has announced not only recently but in the past two years. So the Government are trying their very best to force business and industry to respond to the challenges that the economy now faces.
Strategically, we have identified some of the economies that we want to back, such as advanced manufacturing in aerospace, motor and science. The Chancellor announced great support for science and technology yesterday in the Autumn Statement. We also want to support knowledge-intensive industries such as education, IT and business services—all key things in which we have tremendous skills. In addition, we want to enable some of the construction and energy companies to start rebuilding infrastructure.
At the heart of this is trade. Unless we start to trade as a nation, we will not have growth. Our initiatives for trade include investing more funds in UKTI, a department that I am proud to be involved with. We have reformed UKTI as a much more outward-facing unit than it has been. The Prime Minister has led several big trade delegations; there have been more than 280 missions this year alone through UKTI. We have had Export Week, we have had ExploreExport, and as of late I am pleased to have taken on the chairmanship of the Prime Minister’s trade envoys.
If there is one thing that I think sums up this debate and the admirable concerns of all noble Lords in this Chamber, which were echoed by the noble Lord, it is the notion that we are definitely all in this together. Through the trade envoys—which involve Labour, Liberal Democrat and Conservative Peers—and through our business ambassadors, we will be able to take the trade out to the world as UK plc. That is how we will get out of this mess—by all being in it together. I admire the words that the noble Lord used, because they are the icing on the cake on what I think is an excellent document and a good reference point for our Government.