Defence Personnel

James Gray Excerpts

Thursday 6th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[Ms Stuart]

Yes, I am holding a piece of paper—or several of them—in my hand.

Before the right hon. Member for North East Hampshire beats himself up too much about having been wrong, he should remember that we have not yet withdrawn from Afghanistan. I hope that we will both end up having to say that we have been proved wrong, but we should be anything but complacent about what happens in Afghanistan and about the ease of withdrawal. The closer we get to the withdrawal date and the more we have to ensure the safety of our own troops—we are not entirely clear who provides that security—the more difficult it will get. The situation reminds me of when children leave home: we cannot wait for them to leave home, but the closer the time gets, the more nervous we get about their having to step out.

I want to start by addressing a big issue and then move on to something more specific. I am often accused of having a typical foreigner’s emotional attachment to British institutions, which is probably true of a few people. I have always been extremely proud of a country that has a sense of itself and its role in the world, but the recent strategic defence reviews and what has been happening in other Departments have made me begin to wonder whether we still have that sense of self and of our role in the world.

I would assert that we now have a Ministry of Defence that says that we will provide the amount of troops that we can afford in order to balance the books, rather than starting off by saying, “This is the role we wish to play in the world.” I would have expected a strategic defence review to start by saying, “We have a Navy because we are an island and therefore we need x, y and z,” and, “Our air force is a certain size because we have assessed the risk from the air.” The commitment and engagement that we wish to see outside these islands should determine the size of our Army. I have seen no such clear statement as to what we are about.

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

I absolutely agree with and entirely endorse what the hon. Lady says about the foreign policy baseline for any strategic defence review, but does she not agree that, if we were to start from that standpoint, it would be almost inevitable that we would end up with a requirement that was vastly greater than the nation could afford?

[Ms Stuart]

That may well be the case, but we have to start with where we think we should be and then we can work out where we ought to be. It is not just the MOD that lacks that strategic sense. At one stage, the Department for International Development had a clear statutory duty of poverty reduction, but even that is being reviewed and rethought at the moment—I am not entirely sure where that takes us. Our Foreign Office is also reducing its influence. If we consider how this country projects itself to the rest of the world, we will see that there is a lack of clarity in those lead Departments that ought to provide a collective view.

I asked myself whether this was happening all over the world and looked at comparative figures for GDP spending on NATO. Even if we look back as far as the 1950s, there is a consistent pattern within the European Union. Our country and France contribute well over 2% of GDP commitment, so we clearly have a view on where we should be in terms of spending.

It is sometimes difficult to make comparisons between armed forces numbers, because we ended conscription. The Italian and German figures in particular—they sometimes include police forces—are somewhat misleading, but nevertheless the pattern shows that we are still big significant players. We have no sense, however, of why we want to be the big players. What are we going to do?

I want to leave the Minister with a final example of that muddled, confused thinking. In my experience, it is always when we are not entirely sure what we want to say that we end up constructing sentences that are utterly meaningless. The Defence Committee took evidence yesterday on the Army 2020 review and I was struck by something called, “Figure 1: Force Development Deductions”. I invite the Minister to look at the relevant paragraph. I will not bore the House by reading it. It has about 10 sentences and I am glad that the word “broadband” is in there, because that is about the only word I understood. I drew the attention of our witness, General Sir Peter Wall, to that paragraph and asked him about it, and he confessed his confusion about the precise meaning of that integral part of the report. He promised the Committee that he would consult the Babel fish and provide us with an English translation. I think that demonstrates that the MOD needs to be much clearer, particularly post-Afghanistan, of what we think our forces are for. It is no good just to say, “This is how much money we’ve got,” even though the money is important.

This might again be a sign of my emotional attachment as a foreigner, but I am always struck by the island blindness of this country. This is an island, so how can we compromise some of our surveillance abilities? What will happen to maritime security? It is staggering. That is my general point for the Minister.

My second point is much more grounded at home. Last week, I went to meet Malala Yousafzai’s father—the family are currently in my constituency at the Queen Elizabeth hospital and the Royal Centre for Defence Medicine, which do extraordinary work. It was particularly pleasing for me to see that good work, because I was the evil Minister who closed down the military hospitals in places such as Gosport and I remember being denounced in endless Adjournment debates for doing so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Angus Robertson]

That is a good question. I met the premier of Lower Saxony, David McAllister, when I was in Germany. Because many of the decisions to be taken on amelioration of basing policy are effectively devolved functions—Ländersache—in Germany, decision makers such as David McAllister will have to work with local communities to help with the transition following any announcement on the basing review. Not one of my interlocutors both at Länder and community level was aware of any fixed timetable beyond what was said in previous statements. I was not told that there has been any clarity on what is likely to happen. I am sure the Minister does not disagree—he will no doubt say that clarity will be given as soon as possible—but I should underline the point that many hon. Members were given the impression that we would hear on Tuesday, but it now appears that we will not.

For communities such as Bad Fallingbostel, the likelihood of the withdrawal of UK forces is significant. The role of the military in that part of the world goes back a long time, to the time of the Hanoverian redcoats. While they were tramping around parts of Scotland in the mid-18th century, they were also beginning to train on the Lüneburg Heath. The area has since become the most significant training area anywhere in Europe. A series of communities around the training area, whether in Bergen, Celle or Bad Fallingbostel itself, are exceptionally defence dependent. The impact of the basing review is significant not only in Lower Saxony; there are large-scale UK military presences in places such as Gütersloh and Paderborn. We should not lose sight of the fact that basing announcements will be relevant not only here, but in friendly nations such as Germany. It is important that people there have as much notice of any changes as we have here, and as quickly as possible.

I have a couple of constituency matters to raise. Right hon. and hon. Members know that I represent one of the most defence-dependent constituencies in the UK—it contains RAF Lossiemouth and Kinloss barracks. I stress to the Minister that I am hearing loud and clear that people want clarity on what will happen. There is uncertainty on the time scale for the transfer of the Typhoons from Leuchars and uncertainty in Leuchars about what will happen at the base. There is uncertainty in Angus about the Condor facility, which has been there for a very long time. If the Minister is not aware of that uncertainty, I strongly advise him to look closely at the trends at bases such as RAF Lossiemouth, where over and above compulsory and voluntary release we are seeing, in some very important trade groups and specialisations, people leaving in droves. That is due largely to uncertainty and, it has to be said, the success of the offshore oil and gas industry, which is offering tremendous opportunities to people starting a career in the civilian world.

It would be useful to remind ourselves of the commitments given on basing, which I imagine will be the starting point for the Ministry of Defence. We do not have to look back very far, because the previous Secretary of State for Defence, the right hon. Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), was explicit about the MOD’s plans for Scotland and I would like to remind the House what they are. He made a statement on defence transformation, and I will read the entire paragraph, because it is important:

“Army brigades currently stationed around Catterick and Salisbury will make up three of the five multi-role brigades. The other two MRBs will be based in the east of England, centred on Cottesmore, and in Scotland, centred on Kirknewton, south-west of Edinburgh. The MRB centred in Scotland will require a new training area, and positive discussions are being taken forward with the Scottish Government. Two major units and a formation headquarters will be based at Leuchars, increasing the number of posts there from 1,200 to more than 1,300. Consequently, the Typhoon force due to be built up there will instead be built up at RAF Lossiemouth. Other MRB units will be moved into Glencorse, Caledonia, Albemarle barracks and eventually Arbroath, as we intend over time to bring the bulk of the Royal Marines together in the south-west.”—[Official Report, 18 June 2011; Vol. 531, c. 644-5.]

That was outlined only last year, and there is no ambiguity whatsoever. A month later, he went on to give welcome clarity on numbers. When asked about the number of troops expected to return from Germany to Scotland, he said:

“It is impossible to give an exact number, but I would imagine that between 6,500 and 7,000, or something of that order, of the 20,000 personnel we currently have in Germany will be coming back to the multi-role brigades in Scotland. The precise number and lay-down will be subject to the plans that the Army will bring forward in the months and years ahead, assuming of course that we have the agreement of the local authorities and the Scottish Government.”—[Official Report, 18 July 2011; Vol. 531, c. 655.]

The UK Government obviously had the support of the Scottish Government in relation to the training area and any planning that would need to take place. That was a very clear and unambiguous commitment about the number of troops coming back from Germany to Scotland.

All the mood music and noise we hear about the basing review makes me concerned that there will be a rowing back on those commitments only a year after they were made. The context is important and we should not lose sight of it. The former Secretary of State for Defence gave an important number when he told the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs on 7 June 2011 that

“between 2000 and 2010, the total reduction”—

in service jobs—

“was 11.6% but the reduction in Scotland was 27.9%. Over the decade 2000 to 2010 there were bigger reductions made in total personnel as a proportion than in other parts of the United Kingdom.”

That is the inheritance with which we have found ourselves, and we have the commitment given by the former Secretary of State that one would try to make good some of the disproportionate cuts visited on defence in Scotland.

[Mr Gray]

rose—

[Angus Robertson]

I will of course give way to the chairman of the all-party group on the armed forces.

[Mr Gray]

I am listening carefully to what the hon. Gentleman has to say and I am reluctant to bring a note of party political angst into what has been an extremely well informed and sensible debate so far. However, does he not agree that if his party’s great ambition of an independent Scotland was to happen, the amount of UK troops based in Scotland would be significantly lower?

--- Later in debate ---

[Mr James Gray (North Wiltshire) (Con)]

This has been a fascinating, well balanced and intelligent debate, covering a wide variety of topics. That includes the contribution from the hon. Member for Moray (Angus Robertson), whom I am delighted to follow. He knows his stuff and has made a useful contribution to the all-party armed forces group over the years. I am grateful to him for that, although the possibility of he and I ever coming to a mutual understanding on what will happen to defence in the unlikely event of Scottish independence is perhaps rather remote. I am grateful to him for his remarks and his help over the years.

I rather regret that the old parliamentary tradition of set-piece defence debates has been abolished—I seem to recall that at one time there were six, and then there were three, I think. My right hon. Friend the Member for North East Hampshire (Mr Arbuthnot), the Chairman of the Defence Committee, has made representations on this subject to the Procedure Committee, on which I sit. Those debates have been replaced by a bid—in this case to be made by the Defence Committee—to the Backbench Business Committee for time. That means that defence, which ought to be the greatest and heaviest duty of the nation, has to compete with other more topical, interesting or amusing subjects for debating time. That is wrong. The Procedure Committee has considered whether time should be given for set-piece debates of this kind and has undertaken to keep the subject under review. It is always worth making the point that we ought to have set-piece debates during the year on defence, the Intelligence and Security Committee and one or two other equally grave and weighty subjects, which might not be quite as popular as some others.

Today’s debate is about defence personnel. If defence of the realm is our greatest duty, it is right that paying our respects, thanks and homage to the people who make that possible—our armed forces—should be high on our list of priorities as a Parliament. I am therefore glad that in recent years we have had the opportunity to welcome back the two brigades a year that return from Afghanistan, as we did successfully the other day. I am grateful to Mr Speaker, Black Rod, the Serjeant at Arms and others who make those parades possible. They are terribly important in allowing Parliament to remember and be physically shown the people we have sent off to war. They are also terribly important from the brigades’ point of view.

Let me quote from a letter I received this morning from the commander of 12th Mechanized Brigade, who came to Parliament last week:

“The opportunity to celebrate and thank our young soldiers is rarely done in such a special way. Although respect for our soldiers is often talked about, the Parliamentary Parade and reception brought it firmly home to me that those sentiments are both genuine and heartfelt. Understanding this was particularly important for the more junior members on parade, as it is they who often faced the gravest danger and all too often it is our youngest who are forced to make the ultimate sacrifice. When that price is paid we know that they will never be forgotten. That response is often expressed by others as well. Last Monday confirmed that it is truly meant by those we serve.”

Brigadier Chalmers’ letter is of great importance and brings it home to us that it is right and proper to pay our respects to those young soldiers. We should be aware that the things they do—as well as the discomforts they face, quite apart from the dangers—are things that very few people in this Chamber would ever contemplate doing themselves. We should take this opportunity to thank and pay tribute to them for all they do.

[Mr Francois]

I want absolutely to echo from the Dispatch Box what my hon. Friend has just said. I pay tribute to his work as chairman of the all-party armed forces group in helping to organise the homecoming parades. I have seen for myself, on the faces of the troops, how much they appreciate those parades. I endorse the value of these exercises and celebrate the achievements of the men who came back to Parliament. [Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. May I ask the Minister to face the Chamber when he next stands at the Dispatch Box, so that we can hear what he says and so that he can see the Chair, just in case there needs to be an intervention from the Chair?

[Mr Gray]

The Minister was simply overcome by the passion of what he was saying that he forgot one or two conventions of the House. I am most grateful to him for his extremely kind remarks.

The all-party armed forces group does a useful job. Many of its officers are in the Chamber today, and I am grateful to them for all the things they do. My hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) is chairman of the Army section of the all-party group, and my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) is chairman of that part of the group that looks after the Royal Marines.

[Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

My hon. Friend mentioned the all-party group, so will he say a few words about the armed forces parliamentary scheme, with which he and I have long been associated, as well as about the magnificent work of Sir Neil Thorne and the amazing effect the scheme has had of creating links between parliamentarians and members of the armed forces?

[Mr Gray]

My hon. Friend not only anticipates what I was about to say but rips the heart out of the central part of the comments that I was about to make. I shall come to that subject in a moment.

The way in which the people of Britain respect our armed forces has changed over the years. It was unanimous after the second world war, as we knew what our armed forces had done for us through those years. At certain times since, there has been a similar increase in respect for them. There have also been periods, particularly in the 1960s and 1970s, when people’s knowledge of and respect for our armed forces has been significantly lower.

I pay respect to my own constituents in Royal Wootton Bassett for the way in which they welcomed home the fallen soldiers for five or six years before handing back the duty to Brize Norton in the Prime Minister’s constituency. They spoke for the nation in paying their respects to the armed forces and the way in which they had served. They did so quietly, modestly and sensibly without pomp or ceremony. They simply stood in the high street getting wet and bowing their heads at the appropriate moment. They spoke for the people of Britain and the way in which we respect our armed forces.

A similar transition in attitudes has occurred here in Parliament. Following the retirement of brigadiers and soldiers who had served in the second world war from this place some 20 or 30 years ago, I suspect that our knowledge of and respect for our armed forces declined significantly for a time. That would have been around the late ’60s and early ’70s, when not much was happening of a military nature and most Members of Parliament who had been soldiers, sailors or airmen had retired.

[Oliver Colvile]

We must not forget the commitment made by our troops in Northern Ireland during the late ’60s, ’70s and’80s. There were a lot of Royal Marines there, and I would like to pay tribute to them. Those events would certainly have kept people interested in what was going on in the military.

[Mr Gray]

My hon. Friend never misses an opportunity to speak up for the Royal Marines, and he is absolutely correct. I was not for one second suggesting that the House was silent on these matters during those years; I merely said that their prominence had declined somewhat at various times over the past 50 years.

Into that relative desert of knowledge, awareness and understanding of our armed forces came the figure of Sir Neil Thorne—this is where my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) did me a disservice a moment ago. Realising the shortage of information and awareness in the House, Sir Neil created the armed forces parliamentary scheme 25 years ago this year. Since then, he has run the scheme more or less single-handedly. He has help from a variety of people, but he is the driving force behind it. The scheme has gone through all sorts of changes. When I joined it in 1997, it was extremely small, with one MP from each side of the House attached to each of the four services. This year, there are about 70 people involved, including MEPs, Clerks of the House, Members of the House of Lords and others.

The work of the armed forces parliamentary scheme under Sir Neil has significantly increased the level of understanding and awareness of our armed forces and, in particular, of the work done by our boys and girls on the ground. A significant cadre of Members of Parliament now truly understand what happens on the ground. MPs are embedded for up to 22 days a year, perhaps wearing some kind of uniform, and they get intimately involved with activities of our armed forces on a variety of levels. That is central to the excellence of the understanding that the scheme has brought to this place.

In that context, it is probably known around the House that there will be some changes coming to the armed forces parliamentary scheme. Sir Neil has indicated that he would like to see changes, and the Secretary of State for Defence and Mr Speaker have joined him in that. The scheme will soon be re-established as a charitable trust under nine trustees, and we very much look forward to its continuation under the slightly new format.

Two things are central. First, it seems to me essential that the armed forces parliamentary scheme should remain as it is, or very much like it is, for 25 or 50 years to come. It would be no good at all if we said right now, “That’s it. It has been great, but let’s say goodbye to it.” We must not do that—the armed forces parliamentary scheme plays a terribly important part in all our parliamentary debates. Secondly, there are all sorts of ways of doing this, but on this 25th anniversary of the scheme’s foundation, it is terribly important that we pay due respect to the fantastic contribution to the defence of the realm and to our understanding of it that Sir Neil and his wife have made. He has done a great job; it is right that we should acknowledge it.

[Mr Arbuthnot]

Does my hon. Friend agree that Sir Neil has not only put in a large amount of his own time and considerable expertise but has invested a large amount of his own money into creating the scheme, and that it is has proved so successful that it has been copied in other countries around the world and has given rise to similar schemes for the police, for example?

[Mr Gray]

My right hon. Friend is absolutely right: Sir Neil’s personal contribution in respect of time, money and, indeed, the excellent Lady Thorne has been significant. A similar scheme has been established in Australia and, as my right hon. Friend says, there is a similar police scheme in existence—in this Parliament, and who knows where else it might spread.

On an occasion such as today’s when we are talking about defence personnel, it is right to pay our respects to and honour those people who do things that we in the Chamber could not contemplate doing, although one or two of us have done them—my hon. Friend the Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti), for example, who is not in his place at the moment. He has had the great advantage of having spent six months in Afghanistan, with 36 hours of contact, firing a light gun at the enemy. Very few Members of Parliament have achieved anything of that kind; I think we should pay our respects to my hon. Friend for that.

It is right that we should make use of the armed forces parliamentary scheme, the all-party group for the armed forces and the welcome home parades. We should also celebrate the respects paid to the armed forces down the streets of Royal Wootton Bassett—or now in Carterton in Oxfordshire. The people of the United Kingdom and the Members of this House understand what a great contribution our armed forces make to the defence of our realm. It is right that we should convert that understanding into visible signs of it; various organisations do that very well.