House of Commons

Thursday 16th January 2014 Commons Chamber

Thursday 16 January 2014

The House met at half-past Nine o’clock

Prayers

Thursday 16th January 2014 Commons Chamber

The Chairman of Ways and Means took the Chair as Deputy Speaker (Order, 13 January, and Standing Order No.3).

Oral Answers to Questions

Thursday 16th January 2014 Commons Chamber

The Secretary of State was asked—

[Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)]

1. What steps he is taking to help households improve their energy efficiency.

[Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab)]

4. What steps he is taking to help households improve their energy efficiency.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)]

The thoughts of the House will obviously be elsewhere today, in remembering our late colleague Paul Goggins, on the day of his funeral, and I associate myself and my colleagues with the many tributes that have already been paid across the House.

The coalition is committed to transforming the energy efficiency of Britain’s homes and helping consumers control their energy bills. The green deal and energy company obligation have together improved over a third of a million homes in their first 10 months of operation, but even more importantly we have established the conditions to grow a genuinely economically sustainable energy efficiency market as part of our long-term plan to transform British homes.

[Tom Blenkinsop]

I, like everyone in the House, would like to associate myself with the Minister’s comments about Paul Goggins.

The Minister said last March that he would be having sleepless nights if fewer than 10,000 people signed up for a green deal by the end of 2013: just 1,030 households have signed up. Will he confirm that at this current rate of progress it will take until 2023 for his target to be met?

[Gregory Barker]

The hon. Gentleman is right. We anticipated that more green deal finance plans would have been taken out by this stage, but we have seen, and been taken aback by, how popular green deal measures have been. There have now been more than 117,000 green deal assessments, and new research published this morning shows that only 5% of people are not installing green deal measures as a result. If people choose to pay for these measures themselves, that is a good thing. The main thing is that people are installing green deal measures using green deal installers and that the green deal market is off to a good start.

[Chris Williamson]

It would be helpful if the Minister supported Labour’s energy price freeze, but clearly the long-term solution required to end the scandal of people dying because they live in cold homes is a massive energy efficiency programme. As we know, the green deal has been an abject failure, with 1,030 households signing up so far and a 93% fall in the number of loft installations last year. Will he explain why his Department’s policies are failing so badly?

[Gregory Barker]

Labour’s price freeze is a con, and everybody now realises that it would harm investment and damage the interests of consumers and hard-working families. Fuel poverty is a long-term challenge, but when the Leader of the Opposition was Secretary of State fuel poverty rose to record highs, just as it did in every year of the last Parliament under Labour. The coalition still has a lot more to do, but the fuel poverty figures have been falling, so perhaps the hon. Gentleman should read less rhetoric and more facts.

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

May I press my right hon. Friend to put extra effort into those rural areas where poorer people predominantly live in solid-wall, stone-built properties and where, because they are off the gas grid, they are dependent on expensive fuels, such as oil and liquefied petroleum gas?

[Gregory Barker]

My right hon. Friend makes a very good point. The coalition has put new emphasis on tackling the deep problem of fuel poverty in rural areas. We are looking at this with renewed vigour and will come forward with further improvements to our fuel poverty schemes to ensure they reach those who need help in rural areas.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

Precisely how many measures have been installed under the energy company obligation or the green deal among those special rural sub-populations and off-grid users?

[Gregory Barker]

I am afraid I cannot off the top of my head give the specific figure, but I will happily write to the hon. Gentleman with it and make it available to the rest of the House. I can tell hon. Members, however, that we are doing, and are determined to do, much better than the previous Labour Government.

[Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)]

One way to increase energy efficiency is to have modern boilers. The current affordable warrant schemes under the ECO, however, do not include home fuel oil or LPG boilers, discriminating against those in rural areas who are off the gas grid. The Minister has said that the coalition wants to do something for rural areas, so will he look again and ensure that, as he has promised before, all such schemes will be technologically neutral?

[Gregory Barker]

We take this issue very seriously. We are meeting suppliers again next month, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman that there will be progress. That has eluded Governments in the past, but we are determined to make progress.

[Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)]

The over-75s are most likely to live in homes with poor energy efficiency, most vulnerable to the cold weather and least likely to switch energy supplier, so they often pay more than they need to. Given the Prime Minister’s promise to put everyone on the cheapest tariffs, this does nothing to help 90% of the people, so will the Minister back Labour’s plan to put all over-75s on the cheapest tariff?

[Gregory Barker]

The Labour Government had 13 years in which to legislate and sort out the problem but did nothing. We have legislated to put everybody on to the cheapest tariff for their needs. This winter, more than 2 million households, including over a million of the poorest pensioners, will automatically receive the warm home discount of up to £135.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

The boiler replacement scheme for Northern Ireland cost £12 million over the three years; it has been an outstanding success and achieved the high energy efficiency targets that were set. Will the Minister have discussions with the responsible Minister in Northern Ireland with a view to reintroducing a similar boiler scheme here on the mainland UK?

[Gregory Barker]

We already have live and up and running a cashback scheme to help people with boiler replacements. We think this is an important market and we are looking at it as part of our stamp duty rebate bonus to help drive the green deal and see what more can be done in the boiler market. I am going to Northern Ireland next month; if there is an opportunity to discuss this issue, I will certainly take it.

[Mr Stephen Hepburn (Jarrow) (Lab)]

2. What steps his Department is taking to tackle fuel poverty.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)]

The coalition is committed to tackling fuel poverty. In 10 months, the green deal and energy company obligation have transformed more than 336,000 homes, of which about 250,000 are low income and vulnerable households, helping to cut people’s bills and keep them warm. In addition, this winter more than 2 million households, including more than 1 million of the poorest pensioners, will receive the warm home discount, worth up to £135.

[Mr Hepburn]

Since this Government came to power, the big six energy companies have made an unprecedented profit of up to £3.5 billion, while household gas and electricity bills have almost doubled. When are the Government going to catch up with the Labour party and the general public, take these greedy vultures into hand and freeze bills, rather than give what is effectively a taxpayer’s subsidy to the energy companies to give us a miserly £1 a week off our bills?

[Gregory Barker]

It is a great shame that the hon. Gentleman did not have that view when Labour was in government. Let us not forget that Labour created the big six. There were 14 major energy companies when Labour took office and those were driven into the big six. The big six are Labour’s creation. We are on the side of competition, technological change and the consumer; under this Government, we are putting the consumer first.

[Charles Hendry (Wealden) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend look at taking some specific measures to tackle fuel poverty for those who are off the gas grid? Will he encourage the use of syndicates, which can buy oil and LPG more cheaply? Will he look again at whether this vital sector should be regulated by Ofgem, and will he explore whether some of the revenues from future shale gas development could be used directly to extend the gas grid?

[Gregory Barker]

I take my hon. Friend’s points extremely seriously, not least because he did a great deal for this group of people when he was an energy Minister. Speaking as someone who is off the gas grid, I am delighted to say that I recently joined my local community’s syndicate for buying heating oil, and it has delivered a very good price. I encourage others to do the same. The good point that my hon. Friend raises is under review. We are looking at more effective data matching to identify those in fuel poverty in rural areas who are often much harder to find than those in similar circumstances in urban areas. We are absolutely on it; I can assure my hon. Friend of that.

[Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)]

There was anger and deep disappointment in my constituency this week when British Gas announced that, as a direct result of the Minister’s changes to the ECO, it is pulling out of the scheme that was due to deliver external wall insulation to up to 4,700 concrete houses in Clifton by March 2015. Will the right hon. Gentleman agree to meet me and local partners urgently to discuss whether there is a possible future for this scheme?

[Gregory Barker]

I will certainly meet the hon. Lady, and I shall be happy to look at the matter in more detail. It is primarily a matter for British Gas, which has an obligation to deliver, at scale, measures to help the fuel poor, but we are determined to ensure that those measures are enforced.

The ECO is now in good health, and we have extended it to 2017. Unlike the programmes introduced by the last Government, which were very stop-go and hand-to-mouth—for instance, the carbon emissions reduction target was initially scheduled to apply to one year but was then extended for another year and then another—the ECO will provide investor certainty until 2017, which is good news for the fuel poor.

[Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)]

Identifying those who live in fuel-poor households is of paramount importance, and Members of Parliament, the Church and credit unions have a role to play in that. We in Northumberland invented oil-buying clubs in this country, and we now have 13 of them, covering almost all the off-grid provision. We have produced a leaflet of which we are particularly proud, which explains how people can reduce energy bills, and we are sending it to individual households.

[Gregory Barker]

I commend my hon. Friend for his excellent work on an issue that is so important to his constituents. I should love to see a copy of that leaflet. We are keen to find out more about the ideas that my hon. Friend is pioneering with his community, and to learn from good practice and spread it throughout the country. Perhaps we shall have an opportunity to do that when we launch our community energy strategy.

[Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)]

3. What recent discussions he has had with power companies on their preparedness to deal with bad weather events.

[The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Mr Edward Davey)]

Let me begin by saying that our thoughts and prayers are with the family and friends of Paul Goggins as we all celebrate his life and superb contribution on his funeral day.

I met the distribution network operators and key industry players on 8 January to discuss the power cuts over the Christmas period. I have organised a review of what worked and what did not, and I am due to receive a report before the end of March.

While there are clearly lessons to be learned, especially in regard to communications with customers, I want to record again my thanks to the thousands of people who worked so hard over their Christmases, mostly in difficult circumstances, to look after and reconnect those who were affected by severe storms and flooding.

[Mr McKenzie]

Who is responsible for ensuring that power companies are sufficiently prepared for bad weather, and have enough staff to be able to deal with both the weather and any power cuts that may result from it? Is that his Department‘s job, or is it Ofgem’s?

[Mr Davey]

As the hon. Gentleman will know, Ofgem regulates the distribution network operators to ensure that they perform adequately, but the whole industry does a huge amount of work—along with Ofgem and my Department—to ensure that proper preparations are made. Between 24 and 28 December, unprecedented severe weather affected all parts of the country, and it was not possible to make preparations that rely on mutual aid because all the distribution network operators needed their staff. We certainly have lessons to learn from that unprecedented set of events.

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

Our thoughts and prayers are with Paul Goggins and his family today.

In 2007, when we experienced severe surface water flooding, there was an audit of all the critical infrastructure, and a decision was made to move those who were most vulnerable to flooding to higher ground. Would another such audit be timely following the unprecedented flooding that occurred over the Christmas period?

[Mr Davey]

If an audit is recommended in the review that I have instigated, we will of course proceed with it. I must stress, however, that more than 750,000 homes lost power between 24 and 28 December, and 93% of them were reconnected within 24 hours. I do not, of course, underestimate the difficulties experienced by people whose Christmases were ruined and who lost power for more than 48 hours—15,000 houses were affected in that way—but I think that we should see them in proportion. The industry did a very good job, and its preparedness has greatly improved in recent years.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Paul Goggins used to sit next to me in the Chamber, and the difference between us when we used to make trouble on a Thursday was that he was nicer than me. He was a true Christian, whereas I am more the curmudgeonly type, but I am thinking of him today.

I worry about this question. I think that it should be seen in context. Is the new Minister for Portsmouth on side? Is he aware that flooding and the change in our weather patterns have something to do with climate change? Has he looked at the BP long-term survey of energy use, which was published this morning and which points to a very changed world market? That will also have an impact on our weather.

[Mr Davey]

I do not think the hon. Gentleman is curmudgeonly at all, and I welcome his question. I think it is important to think about whether events are connected to climate change. As he will know, climate change scientists are reluctant on this because the evidence does not suggest that particular weather events are connected with climate change, but the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change fifth annual report last year showed that there is increasing concern because both the theory and practice of climate change analysis suggests there are likely to be more severe weather events if we do not tackle it.

[Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)]

5. What steps he is taking to promote the exploration of UK shale gas resources.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Michael Fallon)]

The Government have taken a number of recent steps to promote shale gas exploration. We confirmed fiscal measures in the autumn statement to incentivise exploration activity, we published a regulatory road map in December setting out clearly for operators the regulatory requirements for shale gas projects, and the Prime Minister announced 100% business rate retention for local authorities for shale projects on Monday. We are also consulting on the strategic environment assessment for a potential 14th onshore licensing round, which would enable further areas of the country to be explored.

[Andrew Jones]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. Does he agree that, far from being a bribe, the decision to allow councils to keep 100% of business rates is about ensuring that local communities and local people can benefit and get a fair share of the development in their area?

[Michael Fallon]

Yes, it is important that the benefits of shale gas exploration should not just go to the economy more widely, or to the companies doing the exploration or, indeed, wholly to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is important that local people and local communities share in those benefits as well.

[Graham Jones (Hyndburn) (Lab)]

The Prime Minister has said the Government are going all out for shale, but the Treasury is taking a whopping 62% while offering a minuscule offer with business rates. The Minister’s Department will have received a letter last week from Lancashire MPs—united, cross-party—and Labour-controlled Lancashire county council opposing the business rates offer. I think he received comments from Members on his own side, too—from the hon. Member for Wyre and Preston North (Mr Wallace) saying it is “pathetic and insulting” and from the hon. Member for Lancaster and Fleetwood (Eric Ollerenshaw), who said it is simply not enough. When is the Minister going to address this issue of fairness?

[Michael Fallon]

We will, of course, reply to the letter from the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues from Lancashire. However, the decision to give local authorities 100% business rate retention could mean up to £1.75 million a year per well site, and the decision to allocate 1% of the revenues to local communities could mean up to £10 million for a well site. These are formidable sums, and I think it is right that local communities share in any of the benefits that arise from shale.

[Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con)]

Can my right hon. Friend confirm that nearly 200 wells in this country and over 2 million wells worldwide have used hydraulic fracturing technology and not a single person has been poisoned by contaminated sub-surface water supplies and not a single building has been damaged by the resultant minuscule earth tremors?

[Michael Fallon]

I can certainly confirm that hydraulic fracturing is a well-established technique. It has been used the world over. We also have experience of onshore drilling in this country for nearly 100 years now, since the end of the first world war, and hydraulic fracturing will be permitted only if it is safe not only for those involved but for the environment and the local community.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

On Tuesday the Prime Minister said people objecting to shale gas on climate grounds are irrational, yet climate scientist experts and investors all warn that the vast majority of existing fossil fuel reserves must remain underground—they are unburnable if we are to avoid catastrophic climate change—and just today we hear of the BP report that shale gas will not help cut emissions and that essentially fuel switching does not make a difference as coal just gets exported and is emitted elsewhere. In the light of that, will the Minister tell us whether he agrees with the Prime Minister: does he think climate scientists are irrational as well?

[Michael Fallon]

I think it is wise for all members of the Government to agree with the Prime Minister. Shale gas is one of the greener fossil fuels, and the hon. Lady certainly ought to support its extraction rather than that of coal. We need to reduce our dependence on volatile wholesale international prices for gas and oil, and we need more home-grown energy here under our own control.

[Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)]

A recent American report has suggested that, apart from the absolute volumes of water used in fracking, 90% of the water used remains beneath the surface and is removed from the local water cycle. Has that environmental impact been assessed by the Department, and if not, can it be?

[Michael Fallon]

We will certainly look at all reports and international expertise in this area, but Water UK—the industry body for water—has looked at the management and treatment of water. Let me reassure the House that hydraulic fracturing will be allowed in this country only if it is absolutely safe for the environment, and that of course includes the protection of ground water supply.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

First, may I thank the Secretary of State and the Minister for their kind words about our friend and colleague, Paul Goggins, whose funeral takes place today? He was a regular contributor to these questions, and he was as assiduous in standing up for his constituents in fuel poverty as he was on so many other issues during his time in the House. As you will be aware, Mr Deputy Speaker, my right hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) and my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) are absent this morning, along with many other Members, in order to attend the funeral mass. I know that the whole House will join them in remembering Paul’s tremendous record of public service, and in sending our deepest condolences to his family and loved ones at this very sad time.

May I ask the Minister to tell the House how many jobs he expects to arise from shale gas extraction in the UK?

[Michael Fallon]

The survey conducted by the Institute of Directors estimated that more than 70,000 jobs could be created by the shale gas industry. We are in the initial stages of the industry, and we expect to have two to three years of exploration, so it is not possible at this stage to make a firm forecast of the number of jobs, but that is the Institute of Directors’ best estimate. In other countries where shale gas has been successfully extracted, however, there have been huge benefits to the economy and reductions in household and business bills.

[Tom Greatrex]

I thank the Minister for that reply, repeating the figure that was used by the Prime Minister, by Tory central office and by others earlier this week. Does the Minister understand that addressing the legitimate environmental concerns about shale gas will require the Government to be careful, proportionate and responsible regarding what they say about a yet unrecovered energy source? In that context, will he explain why neither he nor—as far as I am aware—his Secretary of State has referred this morning to the findings of the detailed strategic environmental assessment undertaken by AMEC on behalf of his Department? Those findings put the likely figure for full-time equivalent jobs at between 16,000 and 32,000 during peak construction in the next licensing round.

[Michael Fallon]

There have been a number of estimates, but, as I have said, it is far too early to be sure about the pace of shale gas extraction when we are still at the exploration stage. We have seen estimates from AMEC, and I have quoted the estimate from the Institute of Directors.

[Paul Farrelly (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Lab)]

6. What steps he is taking to help households with their energy bills.

[Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)]

7. What steps he is taking to help households with their energy bills.

[Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab)]

8. What steps he is taking to help households with their energy bills.

[The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Mr Edward Davey)]

We are very concerned about rising energy bills, so we are helping consumers in three ways: with direct help with money off their bills; with stronger competition; and through energy efficiency programmes. Last month, we secured an agreement with the energy companies for an average £50 cut off this year’s bill, and I am pleased to tell the House that my Department’s own work for greater competition for consumers will be enhanced following the appointment of Clive Maxwell, the current chief executive of the Office of Fair Trading.

[Paul Farrelly]

Frankly, the autumn statement was a great disappointment. Will the Government accept that they could do far more to help businesses and consumers who are facing crippling energy bills? The limited changes to green taxes are far too little, too late. Bills will still rise, and simply telling people to shop around is not a proper answer.

[Mr Davey]

I have to disagree with the hon. Gentleman. People are switching providers very effectively. In November last year, the month after the price rises were announced, 614,000 people used the benefits of the competition that we have enhanced to get better deals and save hundreds of pounds. When it comes to records on bills, the provisional 2013 gas and electricity figures have now been published and we can make a comparison between this Government’s record and that of the last Labour Government. Between 2000 and 2010—the last Parliament—gas bills rose by an average of 12% a year; in this Parliament, they have risen by an average of 6%.

[Mrs Glindon]

A new report by the Children’s Society says that about 5 million families are likely to turn down their heating because they cannot afford it, and children will suffer because their homes are simply too cold. Given that 3.6 million children last year thought that their homes were too cold in winter, does the Minister agree that it is now time for a price freeze to ensure that parents can keep their children warm during the cold winter months?

[Mr Davey]

No, I do not think it is time for a price freeze, because I do not think that will help the children the hon. Lady is talking about. We all know that Labour’s price freeze is a con and the energy companies will shove up the bills after the price freeze has ended. We want to give people permanent help, which is why the £50 average cut to people’s energy bills is welcome. In addition, we are ensuring that the warm home discount delivers £135 off bills for the most vulnerable people. That is a good record. We will be coming to the House later this year with our draft fuel poverty strategy, because we want to do more for the most vulnerable households in our society.

[Mrs Lewell-Buck]

A man in my constituency was recently arrested for stealing food. Upon escorting him home, the police found that not only did he have nothing to eat, but he had no heating or electricity at all in his home. He had turned to theft out of desperation. Why does the Minister not recognise that energy prices are a huge contributor to the cost-of-living crisis which is leading to such poverty and that this situation will only get worse until the Government adopt Labour’s energy price freeze?

[Mr Davey]

I do not know the case that the hon. Lady talks about, but the Government are as concerned as anybody about energy prices, energy bills and the impact on people around our country. That is why we have been hyperactive in this area; we have done far more than the previous Government. I mentioned the comparisons we can now make between energy bill rises under the previous Government and under this one. As I said, gas bills went up twice as much under the previous Government, but electricity bills increased by an average of 9% in the previous Parliament whereas in this one they have increased by 4%. We know that that still means bills are going up and we need to help people, but Labour’s record in this area was shocking.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

If people are to be encouraged to switch supplier to cut their energy bills, we must make it as easy as possible for them to find an alternative supplier. One big barrier to that is utilities charging steep termination charges. Can the Department do anything to get rid of or reduce those charges?

[Mr Davey]

We certainly are looking at all aspects of switching to ensure that it is easier and quicker. Ofgem’s retail market review will make a big difference here and it is being implemented now, with simpler and clearer bills, and fewer tariffs. We are also working with the industry to reduce the time involved; I believe that before this Parliament finishes we will have halved the switching times, which will really help people such as my hon. Friend’s constituents.

[Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD)]

The Secretary of State has been reminded by colleagues from all parts of the House this morning that this is not just about electricity and gas bills, low tariffs and dual fuel discounts; it is also about people in rural areas who cannot have any of those things because they rely on liquefied petroleum gas or fuel oil. I have long argued that the worst examples of fuel poverty are faced by people who are isolated in rural areas. Does he agree? Will he make them a priority in his new fuel poverty strategy?

[Mr Davey]

My hon. Friend has campaigned long and hard on this issue. It is clear that the House wants to bring it to our attention, and we are already working on it. As my colleagues have said, we need to address an issue of identification: getting good statistics and data, matching and so on. I can give an assurance that we will focus on this issue, and I invite right hon. and hon. Members to raise the matter with me and my Ministers, and bring forward ideas.

[Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)]

Our constituents are rightly concerned about energy prices. So does my right hon. Friend agree that it is irresponsible for any political party to attempt carbon tax changes to the Energy Act 2013 in the other place, which, had they been successful, would have added £125 to our consumers’ bills?

[Mr Davey]

I think my hon. Friend is referring to the one issue over which the Prime Minister said to the Liaison Committee there is a difference between the two coalition parties. The £125 figure that he quotes is from the Conservative party’s website. The figure from the Committee on Climate Change on the cost of the decarbonisation target is six times less. What that shows is that we need a debate on the decarbonisation target and what the actual costs will be.

[Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State said last December that his Government would reduce the average household bill next year by £50, but three of the big six energy companies are not passing on the reduction to fixed-price tariff customers. Will he confirm that for some of those customers the measures he announced will not take a single penny off their energy bills?

[Mr Davey]

We negotiated a deal with the big six in which they agreed to deliver a £50 average bill reduction, and that is what we expect. We were clear at the time that it was an average bill reduction, because it is impossible to ensure that it goes to every single customer. Our analysis shows that they have largely complied already, and the House can be assured that we will not let up the pressure.

[Julie Elliott]

So that means there are customers who will not receive a single penny off their bills. Is it not a fact that average energy bills are still at least £60 more this winter than last winter? Why will the Secretary of State not admit that he and his Government are doing nothing to stop the big six energy companies raising prices?

[Mr Davey]

First, every customer will get something off their bills because of the rebate that we are putting through related to renewable and social costs, so it is not true that some people will not see any reduction. Furthermore, when the hon. Lady and her colleagues talk about the big six, they forget to mention that Labour created the big six. It was when Labour messed up the reforms of the energy markets in 2001 and abolished the pool in a bad way that we saw consolidation and the big six. We are now fixing that problem.

[Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)]

9. What estimate he has made of the number of jobs that will be created in the renewables industry as a result of the provisions of the Energy Act 2013.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Michael Fallon)]

Directly, and indirectly through supply chains, the Government’s electricity market reforms could support up to 250,000 jobs by 2020, the large majority of which will be in renewable electricity.

[Tim Farron]

In Westmorland, we are extremely proud of having one of the largest and most important hydro manufacturing firms in the world in Gilkes of Kendal, which is a reminder that, unlike other energy sources such as nuclear and shale gas, 95% of the supply chain of the hydro and tidal energy industry is British. Given that and the almost infinite potential of the industry around this island, will the Minister commit to creating tens of thousands of British jobs by making hydro and tidal energy the centrepiece of Britain’s energy policy?

[Michael Fallon]

I will certainly commit to supporting renewable technologies and a mix of renewable technologies. My hon. Friend will have seen that we have confirmed the strike price for tidal and wave power in the final electricity market reform delivery plan that we published in December.

[Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

Investment in low-carbon energy has halved under this Government, costing jobs and threatening our energy security. Does the Minister agree that the two best things that the Government could do to improve their woeful investment record is to set a 2030 power sector decarbonisation target and stop the internal Government rows that are creating uncertainty and killing confidence?

[Michael Fallon]

I must tell the hon. Lady that this country has more offshore wind than any other country in the world. We have seen half a dozen large offshore wind farms commissioned and operating, and another four are under construction this year. We are leading the way in the deployment of renewable technologies, and those renewables contributed around 15% of our electricity in the third quarter of last year.

[Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)]

10. What assessment he has made of the effectiveness of recent investment in the UK’s energy infrastructure.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Michael Fallon)]

Since 2011, 8% of our generating capacity has closed under European legislation, and a further 10% to 12% of current generating capacity is due to close over the decade to 2023. We must continue to invest across the energy landscape to ensure that we maintain robust infrastructure. We have agreed terms for a new nuclear power station, the first in a generation, at Hinkley Point C, and we are also ensuring that new and existing gas generation stays on the system by establishing the capacity market under the Energy Act. We will run the first auction for that later this year.

[Stephen Metcalfe]

Intergen is keen and ready to build a new super-efficient gas-fired power station in my constituency with Siemens as the contractor. The pension fund and Chinese owners, however, will not commit to the £500 million investment required until Intergen has won a contract to supply at the capacity auction in December. Does the Minister agree that that is causing an unnecessary delay and will he agree to meet me and Intergen to see what we can do to bring forward this important investment?

[Michael Fallon]

I am certainly happy to meet my hon. Friend and any potential investors and to reassure them that we are now seeing a wave of potential investment under the Energy Act. As I said, we plan to run the first capacity auction later this year, in which we expect considerable interest in gas-fired stations.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

Many people who are off grid are in fuel poverty—the figure in rural areas is almost double that in urban areas. DECC’s own figures show that there is potential for 800,000 households to be connected to the gas infrastructure. Would the Minister and his Department consider putting aside some money from shale gas exploration in a levy so that we can extend the gas grid, giving people choice and cheaper fuel?

[Michael Fallon]

As I explained earlier, money will be made available from shale gas exploration for local communities and it will be up to local communities to decide in which projects to invest it. We are already taking action to improve the position of those who happen to be off grid, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has explained, through better identification and data sharing through the agencies and by encouraging earlier and collective purchasing schemes.

[Andrew Stephenson (Pendle) (Con)]

11. What steps he is taking to protect the fuel poor whilst seeking to reduce energy bills.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)]

In December the coalition announced a package of policy changes to save hard-working families an average of £50 off their energy bills. The package also included proposals to extend the energy company obligation, which provides direct support to the fuel poor through to 2017. That gives crucial investment certainty to those rolling out our long-term plan to cut fuel poverty.

[Andrew Stephenson]

I thank the Minister for his answer. My constituent, Peter Chester, who runs Green World Energy Solutions, a company whose work focuses on households that qualify for ECO funding, is very concerned that the changes to ECO funding might prevent vulnerable households from being able to improve the energy efficiency of their homes. Can the Minister provide any assurances that that will not be the case?

[Gregory Barker]

Let me reassure my hon. Friend, who is a very effective local champion for entrepreneurs such as Mr Chester and for those struggling with high energy bills in Pendle. I assure him that the coalition has a long-term plan to slash fuel poverty. As we have extended the ECO out to 2017 and increased the number of people it will help, Green World Energy Solutions and other firms like it can now plan with real certainty to continue to improve the homes of thousands of families and help them to cut their bills.

[Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab)]

12. What progress he has made in developing renewables obligation grace periods for renewable energy developers able to demonstrate financial closure of projects prior to March 2017 but commencing operations after that date.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Michael Fallon)]

The Government have consulted on grace periods for developers able to demonstrate substantial financial decisions and investments by the end of July 2014, in relation to renewable electricity projects that are expected to commission before the end of March 2017. We are analysing responses to the consultation and will issue a formal response setting out the policy on renewables obligation grace periods in due course.

[Dr Whitehead]

Does the Minister accept that there is considerable demand for such grace periods? Will he say now that he will agree that all qualifying projects will be given the relevant RO during the grace period? Does he accept that a far simpler way of ensuring that the substantial demand is met would be to extend the transition period between the RO and contracts for difference?

[Michael Fallon]

The consultation only closed a few weeks ago and we must consider all the responses carefully and ensure that the final policy has considered all views. We want to do that as quickly as possible, but it would be a little premature if I announced any conclusion today.

[David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)]

14. Given that the ice caps have not yet melted, tropical islands have not been submerged and there has been no rise in temperatures for 16 years, is it not about time we questioned the entire concept of renewables obligations and started worrying a little more about people going into the red than about all of us going green?

[Michael Fallon]

We certainly worry about those who are struggling with bills, as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has said. We have announced a number of measures to encourage competition and easier switching between suppliers.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

Renewable energy developers in my island constituency would be helped if, instead of generators being charged to export electricity and consumers being charged to import it, the reality of a domestic island market for production for local consumption was recognised. Will the Minister and his Department look at that possibility to help ease energy bills on the islands?

[Michael Fallon]

I am happy to look at that specific proposal. The hon. Gentleman will know that the Department has already been looking hard at the Western Isles project in general.

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

Constituents of mine involved in marine renewable energy are finding that the contracts for difference are attracting developers and jobs into Cornwall. Will my right hon. Friend add his support to the launch of the Plymouth city deal tomorrow, which will see Cornwall working with Plymouth to grow new renewable energy businesses, jobs and prosperity for people across the south-west?

[Michael Fallon]

I am very happy to welcome the Plymouth city deal, particularly the importance of energy in it. As I have said, we have confirmed the strike prices for all types of renewable energy, including wave and tidal. I think that there are some exciting prospects for the industry in Cornwall.

[John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)]

13. What steps he is taking to increase levels of competition in the wholesale energy market.

[The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Mr Edward Davey)]

There are two main initiatives to increase competition in the wholesale energy market led by Ofgem, which we have underpinned with new powers in the Energy Act 2013. First, Ofgem has worked with the industry to increase the amount of electricity traded in the “day ahead” market, with very encouraging progress. Over the past 12 months, over 50% of electricity has been sold on the day exchanges, compared with just 6% in 2010. Secondly, Ofgem’s new reforms—most notably, the market maker obligation—should be rolled out from 1 April 2014, which will force the big six to publish prices and require them to buy and sell electricity at those prices in the forward markets. That will increase liquidity, transparency and competition.

[John Robertson]

I thank the Secretary of State for that answer, but even he will agree that the biggest problem, particularly for the poorest in society, is cost. The energy companies that generate the power are getting 20% profit on generation, selling the electricity to themselves and then selling it on to customers in retail and getting anything between 4% and 6% profit. Surely that cannot be right. Is it not time we broke up the generation and retail sides of the business and stopped those companies dealing with themselves and undercutting the poorest members of society?

[Mr Davey]

I can agree with the hon. Gentleman on the cost issue and that we need reform in the wholesale market because of the vertically integrated model, but I have to remind him and Opposition Members that that model for the big six was created under the previous Government, and we are tackling the issue—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. I think that we have got the point.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I remind the Secretary of State that it was the Conservative Government who privatised the electricity industry and, crucially, John Major who lifted the restriction and allowed that vertical integration. In an article in The Guardian on Monday, the Secretary of State wrote that the big six

“either supplied themselves or opted for over-the-counter deals, with no transparency”

and that vertical integration

“raised concerns about the wholesale market.”

Will he therefore answer the question that my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North West (John Robertson) asked: does he agree with the policy of separating the generation and supply arms of those big businesses?

[Mr Davey]

I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman was not listening. Ofgem’s proposals for the market maker obligation will have a big impact on the wholesale market. It will force the vertically integrated big six to tell competitors what they are prepared to charge and what they are prepared to pay for electricity in the forward markets. That will improve entrance, competition and transparency. The proposal of splitting the vertically integrated companies has real problems. It might work, but it could end up pushing up prices, which we do not want.

[Mr Steve Reed (Croydon North) (Lab)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Mr Edward Davey)]

The Energy Bill received Royal Assent on 18 December and is now the Energy Act 2013. I have published the electricity market reform delivery plan, which sets out updated contract terms and strike prices alongside wider reforms to the electricity market that could unlock additional investments of about £40 billion in renewable electricity generation projects up to 2010. Renewables investment is increasing fast, with renewable electricity generation more than doubling since the coalition came to power. This is a clean, green record that we are proud of.

[Mr Reed]

Nearly 6,000 households are living in fuel poverty in Croydon North and, according to the Government’s own figures, the gap between their bills and what they can afford has grown to almost £500. Given that their energy bills will go up by another £60 this winter, does not this show why nothing less than a price freeze and action to stop these companies overcharging again afterwards will do?

[Mr Davey]

First, fuel poverty got worse under the previous Government and has been coming down under this Government; secondly, we are changing the way in which we measure fuel poverty so that we can better target the people in deepest fuel poverty; thirdly, the energy price freeze would be worse for consumers because prices would end up going up; and fourthly, later this year we will publish the first fuel poverty strategy for over a decade, and it will really address the problems that the hon. Gentleman has raised.

[Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con)]

T2. The potential value of shale gas to our economy and to communities up and down our country is immense. Will my right hon. Friend therefore join me in congratulating the Government on having headed off the attempts by the European Union to regulate this sector? Does he agree that our success in heading off that attempt is very much due to the fact that we have among the safest regulation in this sector of any country in the world?

[Mr Davey]

I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s question, because I was very much involved in those discussions with the European Commission and European colleagues. The House needs to be clear that the European Commission is talking about something that we proposed—namely, publishing guidance about how existing European directives on things such as emissions, water and mining should apply to the new shale oil and gas industry. It is also worth noting that our regulations, which we have updated and ensured are fit for purpose, are the strongest in the world.

[Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)]

T3. When I met three businesses in Wrexham last Friday, they told me that the green deal was not working for them or for consumers. Will the Minister confirm that 99% of applications for the green deal do not proceed to completion?

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)]

Certainly not; I do not recognise that figure at all. In fact, new research published today says that over 80% of people who have a green deal assessment are extremely satisfied with it, and only 5% of those who have an assessment—over 117,000 have been undertaken so far—do not go on to install some of the measures that it recommends. We are not only assessing but implementing, and Labour Members need to get over it.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

We need a little brevity to get through topical questions.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

T6. I was interested to see that the Prime Minister confirmed this week that people living near shale gas sites would enjoy an additional financial benefit. Ministers have confirmed the principle that that should be available to those who live near large-scale onshore wind and large-scale onshore solar array projects. Can the Minister confirm that people who live near such projects will definitely, and on every occasion, enjoy that benefit?

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Michael Fallon)]

Yes. What has been proposed for shale gas is exactly the same as what will apply for large-scale wind farms and large-scale solar farms. Local authorities will be able to enjoy the benefits of 100% business rate retention, and it is only right that local people should therefore get some of the benefit.

[Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab)]

T4. Last year, the number of additional winter deaths in the north-east hit a 10-year high. Many vulnerable people living in my constituency would have benefited from having better insulated homes, but since the introduction of the Government’s energy company obligation the number of households having insulation installed has fallen by 90%. How does the Minister explain this shocking step backwards?

[Mr Davey]

We take the issue of winter deaths very seriously. If the hon. Lady looks at the numbers, she will see that, over a decade and a half or more, they have fluctuated. In fact, the largest amount of winter deaths we have known in the past decade and a half was under the previous Government. We need to have a sober, mature debate on how we tackle winter death, which is a very serious problem that needs to be dealt with through the health service, housing, and so on. The changes we made to ECO before Christmas are very good news for people in fuel poverty, because we have not only kept the amount of ECO that goes towards dealing with fuel poverty but extended it for two more years.

[Mr Douglas Carswell (Clacton) (Con)]

A number of homes in Clacton and Jaywick have been insulated under the “Insulating Jaywick” scheme using ECO funding, but I am told that the funding is no longer available, work has stopped and many local people who thought they had signed up to the scheme have been left rather disappointed. Will the Minister please meet me to discuss whether any funding may be available and from what source?

[Gregory Barker]

I would be very happy to meet my hon. Friend. The message we have tried to give this morning is that the ECO scheme has actually been extended, rather than shortened, and the number of people who will be helped by ECO has grown as a result of the package that has been announced. I would be very happy to discuss specifics with my hon. Friend.

[Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)]

T5. May I say, as a humanist and on behalf of the humanist society in this place, that we respect the work that Paul Goggins did and the way in which he was inspired by his faith? His passing is greatly mourned by all his humanist colleagues.Has the Minister visited Sellafield recently to see the wonderful work going on to get rid of the legacy waste from the Windscale nuclear weapons programme? Is he aware that the 10,000 highly skilled workers there are going to lose their jobs as a result of the plan to shut down the reprocessing plant? Will he meet the workers when they come to this place to address the all-party group on nuclear energy?

[Michael Fallon]

I would be very happy to meet the hon. Gentleman and, indeed, a delegation from that group when they come down to this place. He will know about the significant investment that has gone into Sellafield through the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority. Obviously, we want to see what prospects there are for continuing that work.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

In order to reassure constituents of mine who are concerned about fracking for shale gas, will my right hon. Friend please set out the range of licences and regulatory approvals any company will have to have in place before it can extract shale gas?

[Michael Fallon]

The regulatory road map we published in December makes it clear that any developer must have a licence from the Department; planning permission from the local minerals authority; the necessary permits from the Environment Agency; authorisation from the Health and Safety Executive that its method of fracturing is safe and poses no threat to the environment; and, finally, consent from my Department to proceed.

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

T7. In the light of the Government’s announcements this week on shale gas, will the Minister give an update on his Department’s current plans for harnessing energy from the Severn estuary?

[Michael Fallon]

As I said earlier in response to my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton), we published the final strike prices for both tidal and wave in December. We continue to take an interest in that particular project, which, of course, has to be commercially sustainable. I am sure that those behind the project are aware of what they have to do to bring it to the market.

[Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)]

Last week a constituent came to my surgery complaining of being bombarded with Government literature urging him to apply for the warm home discount and quoting the Secretary of State assuring the Select Committee that it was available to all pensioners, but, because my constituent is in sheltered accommodation and pays his energy bills via his housing association, he has been told that he does not qualify. Is the Secretary of State aware of this anomaly and is anything being done about it?

[Mr Davey]

I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s question. There are one or two anomalies with the way in which the warm home discount works. We are looking at how we can tackle that, not least in our approach to the fuel poverty strategy, which will be published later this spring.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

T8. As Électricité de France has just agreed a strike price for nuclear-generated electricity in France of £38 per MWh, why have the Government agreed to pay nearly three times that price—£92 per MWh—to Électricité de France and guaranteed to index link that price for the next 35 years?

[Mr Davey]

I think the hon. Gentleman is referring to the statement by the chairman of INEOS, who claims he has made this particular arrangement. Clearly, we do not know the details of the contract, but I would be very interested to know them. I challenge INEOS: if it wants to sell cheap electricity to the UK, we would be very happy for it to come on to our markets. However, I do not think that this is a case of comparing apples with apples, as I am sure the hon. Gentleman is well aware.

[Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD)]

The offshore wind industry has seen some significant setbacks of late. What is the Government’s strategy now—are they effectively writing it off and looking to other renewable technologies to meet targets, or do they still want to exploit it, and if so, will they conduct a lessons-learned exercise?

[Mr Davey]

I can tell my hon. Friend that there is no need for a lessons-learned exercise, because the offshore wind industry is in very healthy form. Of course, one or two projects will not go ahead—that may be for geological reasons, such as the one off the north Devon coast—but that is nothing to do with our regime. Some offshore wind projects will not get contracts for difference, but that is because we are going for the best value-for-money projects.

The good news is that we have more installed offshore wind capacity in this country than in any other country. According to independent analysis, we are the best place to come and invest in offshore wind. When we announce those who have won the go-early CfDs in March, I am very confident that more offshore wind will come forward.

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

The emission level of coal is roughly 820g of CO₂ per kWh, and the emission level of natural gas is roughly 430g of CO₂ per kWh. Will the Minister say what he expects the emission level of shale gas to be?

[Michael Fallon]

We have published a study by the chief scientist at the Department on the likely emission level of shale gas. Let me take this opportunity to tell the House that we have of course now signed on the first carbon capture and storage project at Drax, which I hope that the hon. Gentleman will welcome. We hope to follow that with the second CCS project in Scotland very shortly.

[Charles Hendry (Wealden) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend welcome the decision of Chevron this week to allocate at least 75% of the work for the Alder field development in the North sea to companies in the UK supply chain? Will he congratulate his officials in DECC’s office in Aberdeen on how they have worked tirelessly to achieve that outcome, which is a huge boost of confidence in the UK supply chain and will be worth many tens of millions of pounds?

[Mr Davey]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that issue. I will certainly congratulate my officials in the Aberdeen office, who do tremendous work both for the oil and gas industry directly and in helping the supply chain. The industrial strategy that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills and I published last year has made a big difference in saying to those in the oil and gas supply chain that we want them to contract with British fabricators and other British companies.

Finally, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for leading the all-party group set up under the industrial strategy to create better communications with the supply chain and to make it clear to international companies that they should consider using British companies as part of their projects.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

As a Bristol MP, I have had many e-mails over the past few weeks about the use of Government subsidies to support building power stations to burn trees, such as the Helius Energy power station in Avonmouth. Will the Minister give me his assessment of the environmental impact of burning trees for power?

[Mr Davey]

The hon. Lady raises the issue of biomass. We are, indeed, trying to promote biomass in this country, but we have made sure that there is a cap on new dedicated biomass. We want to focus on coal stations that are converting to biomass, because that will mean a much better carbon gain. We have also published the strictest sustainability criteria for biomass in the world. We believe that biomass has a role to play in the transition to a green economy, but we realise that we need to take account of sustainability concerns as well.

[Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)]

This morning, a report was launched by the foundation industries, which are the core of our economy. Some of them, such as the steel, cement and glass industries, use enormous amounts of energy. They have made it clear that if they are to remain competitive, energy prices should not be out of kilter with those of their competitors. Will the Secretary of State work with his colleagues in the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to ensure that these industries are attended to?

[Mr Davey]

I assure my hon. Friend that I am working with my colleagues in BIS. After this Question Time, I am meeting our right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to discuss this very matter.

Business of the House

Thursday 16th January 2014 Commons Chamber

10:34

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House give us the business for next week?

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew Lansley)]

The business for next week is as follows:

Monday 20 January—Second Reading of the Intellectual Property Bill [Lords], followed by motion to approve a carry-over extension to the Children and Families Bill, followed by general debate on payday loan companies. The subject for this debate was determined by the Backbench Business Committee.

Tuesday 21 January—Opposition Day [18th Allotted Day]. There will be a debate on an Opposition motion, including on the subject of pub companies.

Wednesday 22 January—Consideration of Lords Amendments to the Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill, followed by motion to approve a European document relating to the Commission work programme 2014.

Thursday 23 January—Debate on a motion relating to the Shrewsbury 24 and release of papers, followed by a general debate on Holocaust memorial day. The subjects for both debates were determined by the Backbench Business Committee.

Friday 24 January—Private Members’ Bills.

The provisional business for the week commencing 27 January will include:

Monday 27 January—Consideration in Committee and remaining stages of the European Union (Approvals) Bill [Lords].

Tuesday 28 January—Second Reading of a Bill.

Wednesday 29 January—Opposition Day [19th Allotted Day]. There will be a debate on an Opposition motion. Subject to be announced.

Thursday 30 January—Business to be nominated by the Backbench Business Committee.

Friday 31 January—The House will not be sitting.

I should also like to inform the House that the business in Westminster Hall for 13 February will be:

Thursday 13 February—A debate on the third report of the Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee report on supporting the creative economy.

[Ms Eagle]

I am sure that I am not alone in being disappointed not to be able to be at the funeral of our friend and colleague Paul Goggins today at Salford cathedral. We are all thinking of him and his family.

I had wanted to thank the Leader of the House for announcing next week’s jam-packed and exciting programme of Government business, but it is becoming increasingly hard to find any. Last week, he refused to reveal what has happened to the elusive centrepiece of the Queen’s Speech, the Immigration Bill, so I will ask him again. When will that Bill return to the House and what on earth is the hold-up? It certainly is not a lack of Government time, as he tried to claim last week.

Last Thursday, the Leader of the House also refused to tell us whether the Government are considering scheduling the Queen’s Speech during the pre-election purdah. I see that we still have no date. Will he now give us the date of the Queen’s Speech, or at least rule out staging the state opening during the election period, which would be a clear breach of the rules?

The lobbying Bill—one piece of legislation that we will debate next week—is in a complete mess. We have had a panicked pause and a flurry of amendments designed to silence the huge chorus of critical voices, but the Government still managed to lose two crucial votes in the Lords. Even in its current form, the Bill is an unworkable disgrace that threatens legitimate democratic debate, while letting commercial lobbyists off the hook. Last night, the other place defeated the Government by more than 40 votes to exclude some staff costs from the slashed spending limits. Will the Leader of the House accept that amendment when the Bill returns to this House next week?

The publication of papers from the National Archives under the 30-year rule has suggested that Mrs Thatcher’s Government may have played a role in the devastating attack on the Golden Temple in Amritsar. I welcome the Cabinet Secretary’s investigation, but I would like the Leader of the House to give an assurance to the House that no documents will be withheld from the inquiry and that the Foreign Secretary will give a prompt and full statement to the House and make the conclusions of the report public.

On Tuesday, during Health questions, the Under-Secretary of State for Health, the hon. Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter), appeared to rule out any statutory regulation to prevent psychotherapists from providing gay-to-straight conversion therapy, arguing that a ban could have “unintended consequences”. Being gay is not an illness and should never be treated as something that can be cured. Aversion therapy is an abhorrent practice and the Government should be taking action to stop it. May we have a statement from the Secretary of State for Health to clarify the Government’s position on those issues? Will the Leader of the House tell us whether the Government will support the private Member’s Bill promoted by my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies), which would ban such so-called therapies?

It is now nearly a year since the Prime Minister gave the speech that was supposed to end all Tory divisions on Europe, and it is fair to say that it has not been a roaring success. Within weeks, Tory Back Benchers had amended his own Queen’s Speech motion, and they have not stopped banging on about Europe ever since. This week, there has been a letter from 95 Tory MPs demanding a veto on all EU legislation. Does the Leader of the House agree with his Cabinet colleague, the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), who has described that latest Tory Eurosceptic initiative as “right-wing national escapism”? Or does he agree with me that we should build bridges with Europe to deliver real reform, in Britain’s national interest, rather than petulantly threaten to leave?

The Government are so out of ideas that they have run out of legislation 16 months early; so determined to stand up for the wrong people that they defend massive bankers’ bonuses; and so out of touch that they would rather squabble about Europe than govern in the national interest. I understand from press reports this week that Ministers have spent thousands of pounds on acting lessons from the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art. I think the whole country will agree that whatever their method, it is time the Government exited stage right.

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to the shadow Leader of the House for her response to the statement of business. In particular, I join her and our colleagues, including Mr Speaker, who will be representing the House in Salford cathedral today, in expressing our continuing condolence to Paul Goggins’s family and friends.

The hon. Lady asked about the timing of the Immigration Bill. The remaining stages will be announced in due course. I love to leave the House wanting more, and I think I have done that today, not least for the week after next.

The hon. Lady asked about the timing of the Queen’s Speech. I am sorry, but I think she is trying to engender a certain indignation about that. I have made no announcement, and she will recall that last year, I announced the date of the Queen’s Speech on 7 March, so it would be premature to make an announcement at this point.

The hon. Lady is still living in a fantasy world on the impact of the Transparency of Lobbying, Non-party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Bill. It will not stop charities and other campaigning organisations campaigning on policies or issues. It will do what it says on the tin—introduce additional transparency and a requirement that those who wish directly to influence the outcome of elections must register to do so. In response to extensive consultation with many dozens of stakeholders, we have brought forward a number of amendments in the other place. If she had cared to read the debates from Monday and Wednesday in the House of Lords, she would have discerned that there is now a lot of compromise and reconciliation on the Bill. Yes, there was a defeat on Monday and a defeat on Wednesday, but we explained carefully why we did not agree with the amendments in question that were tabled in the Lords. The Lords have still to consider the issues further on Third Reading, but I look forward to the debate next Wednesday when I hope we will see a useful Bill passed through both Houses.

The hon. Lady asked about the inquiries into matters back in 1984 relating to the Golden Temple at Amritsar. I do not think I can add anything to what the Prime Minister said yesterday. He has asked the Cabinet Secretary to undertake an immediate review, which will look at all the documents. The Prime Minister was clear yesterday that he would consider whether it was appropriate to make a statement, or for somebody to make a statement, but one cannot really determine what one should say to the House until one has understood the review’s findings.

The hon. Lady asked about what is referred to as conversion therapy. We do not believe that being lesbian, gay or bisexual is an illness to be treated or cured, so as my colleagues have made clear, we are concerned about so-called gay-to-straight conversion therapy. To be clear, the Department of Health does not recommend the use of such therapy, and it is not a National Institute for Health and Care Excellence-recommended treatment. Indeed, clinical commissioning groups must, in the exercise of their functions, have due regard to the need to eliminate unlawful discrimination, harassment and victimisation and other conduct prohibited under the Equality Act 2010.

The hon. Lady is right that the hon. Member for Swansea West (Geraint Davies) has a private Member’s Bill on the list for Second Reading on 24 January, but I cannot say whether we will have the opportunity to debate it on that day.

The hon. Lady asks about Europe. I listened to my noble Friend Lord Dobbs in the House of Lords when he promoted the European Union (Referendum) Bill. The unity in the House of Commons was reflected in a substantial and impressive degree of unity among colleagues in the House of Lords. Lord Dobbs said that anybody under the age of 60 did not get to vote in the 1975 referendum, but I am under 60 and I voted. I voted then for a Common Market and I still want to be in one. Many Conservative Members, and hon. Members on both sides of the House, want a European Union that delivers an effective single market that boosts the competitiveness and wealth of the people of Europe. That is what we are looking for.

I should mention one other thing that we are keen to do in the House—I hope those on both Front Benches share this view. We want the role of national Parliaments to be strengthened in relation to decision making in the EU. We want the yellow card procedure to be used. It has been used once and it should be used whenever subsidiarity or proportionality do not justify measures brought forward by the European Commission. My right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary is absolutely right to promote—he is finding friends and allies across Europe in this—a red card procedure for national Parliaments in relation to European decision making.

The House may not have heard, but it was announced this morning that Andrew McDonald, the chief executive of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, will retire at the end of March because of ill health. There will be future opportunities for hon. Members to give our thanks to Andrew before he retires, but in establishing IPSA in 2009, he delivered what at the time seemed to be nigh impossible. Despite his ill health from time to time, he has shown great leadership and professionalism in his role at IPSA. I have found him a great pleasure to work with since I became Leader of the House. His skill will be much missed at IPSA and by the House.

[Mr Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater and West Somerset) (Con)]

I am sure it has come to the notice of the Leader of the House that, in the past few weeks, we have had disastrous flooding in Somerset—my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr Heath) is in his place. We are desperately in need of a formal debate on flooding. I have a Backbench Business Committee debate on flooding next week, but it is not good enough. We must have time for a debate. Year after year, flooding is a problem in the UK. We must discuss what we are going to do about the Environment Agency, funding and capital to ensure that we stop having to come to the House every year to beg for money from the Government of the day.

[Mr Lansley]

The Government and hon. Members on both sides of the House have the greatest possible sympathy for those affected by the dramatic flooding events, and particularly for the constituents of hon. Members in Somerset. We offer our support and sympathy.

I understand my hon. Friend’s point on debates. I hope that, in addition to the support he has already received from the Backbench Business Committee, there is time available from the Committee in the weeks ahead. I hope that he and other colleagues whose constituencies are affected look to the Committee for such debates. They would be much supported on both sides of the House.

From the Government’s point of view, my hon. Friend will recall not least the statement made by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and the recent debates on the flood insurance measures in the Water Bill, which reflected how flood management is a priority for the Government. We are investing a record amount and reducing the risk of flooding to 165,000 households during the current spending round. Investment will reduce the risk of flooding for a further 300,000 households in the spending round beyond.

[Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)]

Yesterday, tucked away in the routine publication of statistics from the Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency, we learned that statistics for bovine TB have been suspended because of what the Government agency reported could be a significant over-reporting of the incidence of bovine TB since September 2011. This means that the House has been inadvertently misled on a prime justification for badger culls. Will the Leader of the House demand that the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs make an oral statement to the House early next week?

[Mr Lansley]

The hon. Gentleman correctly notes that a system error in the GB bovine TB statistics has been discovered by the Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency, which affected some of the monthly statistics published. That has affected the reporting of TB statistics; TB surveillance and disease control regimes have continued to operate normally. No livestock businesses should have been directly impacted. The scheduled publication happened, but some of the figures that would normally have been included have been excluded for now. Urgent work to put right the error is ongoing, and a full set of statistics will be published as soon as possible.

[Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD)]

May we have a debate on transparency and the use of public funds in local government? In Somerset, a previous leader of the county council fell out with the chief executive and summarily sacked him in 2009. That cost Somerset council taxpayers more than a third of a million pounds. It now appears that exactly the same thing is happening again. The present chief executive is “out of the office” and has been for seven weeks. No statement has been made by the council, and members of the council have been gagged by a confidentiality clause. Will the Leader of the House ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government—who I gather is in my constituency this week, although he has not had the courtesy to tell me—to investigate?

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend will understand it if I do not comment on the specific case in Somerset to which he refers, but I hope he knows that we are taking steps to simplify the process used for resolving disputes with senior council staff. Indeed, the Secretary of State announced that the designated independent person process is to be abolished and steps will be taken to enhance the transparency of local decisions taken by the full council to provide the necessary protection for senior officers. Soundings were taken on the current proposals. That process closed on 14 January and the Department is currently considering the responses it has received. That is the general context. I will ensure that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will not only inform the House in due course on how he is proceeding on those matters, but respond specifically to my hon. Friend.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

Between June 2011 and September 2013, only 5.4% of the 3,670 disabled people put on the coalition’s Work programme have found jobs. May we please have a debate on the lamentable failure of the Government’s flagship policy for getting disabled people into work?

[Mr Lansley]

The hon. Lady will be aware of the welfare reforms and poverty debate that took place earlier this week. I hope there will be continuing opportunities to consider the Work programme, because overall one can see how it is making an enormous difference to those who have previously been out of work. On disabled people specifically, I draw the hon. Lady’s attention to the written ministerial statement today from my hon. Friends at the Department for Work and Pensions on the publication of “Better Working with Disabled People”. I hope that that shows how the partnership with disabled people and their representatives is improving under this Government.

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

I have been approached by a constituent who has seen her arrears increase since Law of Property Act 1925 receivers were appointed to manage her property. May we have an urgent debate on the role and regulation of LPA receivers?

[Mr Lansley]

I will not dilate on the issue of LPA receivers at present, but I will ask my hon. Friends to reply directly to my hon. Friend. I cannot promise a debate at the moment, but by raising the issue he has enabled us to focus additional attention on it.

[Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)]

A series of UN Security Council resolutions dating back to 1948 have sought to bring resolution in the disputed area of Kashmir. Will time be made available by the Government for a debate to allow the voices of the people of Kashmir to be heard?

[Mr Lansley]

Like many hon. Members, the hon. Gentleman will be aware of the continuing concern among many of our constituents about Kashmir. I cannot promise a debate at the moment, but I have heard the Foreign Secretary respond sympathetically on these issues, so the hon. Gentleman might consider raising them at Foreign Office questions next Tuesday.

[Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)]

I was going to ask for a debate on the mice infestation in my office, but I suspect there would be so many Members scampering into the Chamber to take part that there would not be time, so I shall not do so.

I am pleased that the Government will be spending £18 billion during this Parliament on new school buildings and developments to existing ones, but may we have a debate on the time scales for these improvements to ensure that there are shorter periods between the agreement of funding, an agreement on the design of the schools and the start of the building projects?

[Hon. Members]

Answer the one about the mice.

[Mr Lansley]

I am scurrying to answer. I was just wondering whether there were any traps in my hon. Friend’s question.

My hon. Friend will recall that when we came into office, under the previous Government’s Building Schools for the Future programme no school construction had started. It is the experience of many Members that considerable reductions in costs and an acceleration in process have been achieved under this Government through the new Priority School Building programme. The Secretary of State recently announced that 260,000 schools places had already been created under this Government, and additional substantial funding has been announced that I think takes the funding over this four-year period to about two and a half to three times what it was under the previous Government. All that is positive news. We want to ensure that plans put in place are cost-effective and achieved in as timely a fashion as possible, and I know that that is the intention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.

[Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)]

Members on both sides of the House have long had concerns about the badger cull, the Government’s case for its efficiency and effectiveness, and its very morality. We now find out that their case is based on largely dodgy statistics. May we have a debate in Government time on this issue, which is so important to our constituents?

[Mr Lansley]

I do not think that the hon. Lady should get too carried away until the statisticians have quantified the error. One should not characterise the situation as she did and certainly should not exaggerate. The Government have been assiduous in bringing this issue back for the House to consider, and I know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will continue to do so.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

One of the potential benefits of devolution is that different Administrations can follow different policies, giving us the opportunity to learn from each other. There is particular concern about the performance of education in Wales. May we have a debate about how devolution operates, and about possible mechanisms for making direct comparisons so that we can learn from each other about how different Administrations work?

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend rightly points to concerns, not least those captured in the OECD’s statistics on educational attainment. Those statistics, which make comparisons between countries, including England and Wales, show a worrying lack of attainment in reading and mathematics in Wales, and it is important to deal with that. In my view, this is not an intrinsic criticism of devolution, but much more a criticism of the policies pursued by the devolved Administration in Wales. We do not need a change in the devolution settlement to tackle these issues; we need a change of Government in Wales—away from a Labour Government.

[Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab)]

I listened to the Leader of the House’s answer on the revelations about the Golden Temple in Amritsar. This issue has caused much shock and upset for many of my constituents of all faiths. The Prime Minister indicated yesterday that he thought that a statement might be in order. I hope that we get that statement; many of my constituents will be disappointed if we do not. I also impress on the Leader of the House the need for the inquiry to report quickly, rather than being kicked into the long grass, as some of my constituents fear.

[Mr Lansley]

Let me say to the hon. Gentleman what I said to the shadow Leader of the House. As soon as the Prime Minister was aware of the issue, he took action and asked for a review, which is fair enough, but it is not our practice to say that we are going to make a statement until we are in possession of all the facts. It is reasonable for us to operate on that basis. Rather than the hon. Gentleman and others trying to decide what happened, it would be better to wait and find out what happened.

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

May we have an early debate on the procedures to be followed for fracking? A number of fracking licences are being applied for in my area, and I honestly do not know what procedure applies. We heard in Energy and Climate Change questions that there will be a strategic environmental assessment through which we might be able to find out what the licences cover. There is an important difference between the shallow fracking that currently takes place and deep fracking, which will send shock waves through the countryside and is a matter of much greater concern.

[Mr Lansley]

I know that my hon. Friend was in the Chamber for Energy and Climate Change questions, so she will have heard about some of the essentials of what a regulatory road map for fracking licences would look like. I know that Members are seeking opportunities for debates through the Backbench Business Committee, and I am sure that the House will continue to consider this issue.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

I was a bit surprised by the Leader of the House’s answer to the question about the Queen’s Speech. There is a major innovation here because, for the first time ever, the Government have delayed the local elections until 22 May—the date to which the European elections have been brought forward—and the right hon. Gentleman has already announced the date on which we go into recess as 22 May, meaning that the only way of having the Queen’s Speech in May would be to hold it during purdah. Surely he can just rule out bringing Her Majesty here and tying her into party politics by having the Queen’s Speech during an election period.

[Mr Lansley]

Given that I have not made any announcement about the date of the Queen’s Speech, everything that the hon. Gentleman has said is pure speculation.

[Jake Berry (Rossendale and Darwen) (Con)]

In what can be described only as a slam-dunk start to 2014, Rossendale and Darwen has heard the announcement that it is the biggest climber in the UK competitiveness index, we have been awarded £2 million to restore our town centre in Bacup and two new major employers are opening up in Darwen. May we have a debate in Government time about how the Government’s long-term economic plan is working and on how Rossendale and Darwen, east Lancashire and your constituency of Chorley, Mr Deputy Speaker, are the best places in Britain in which to start and grow a business?

Mr Lansley: I wish I had time available for such a debate, which would provide an excellent opportunity for my hon. Friend to showcase and pay tribute to what Rossendale and Darwen is doing. It would provide a fantastic opportunity for us to debate the clear success of the Government’s long-term economic plan. We are reducing the deficit, cutting income tax and fuel duty, creating more jobs, capping welfare, reducing immigration and, of course, delivering on better schools and skills, all of which is exemplified in Rossendale.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

May I say, Mr Deputy Speaker, that you would never need acting lessons from RADA?

The Leader of the House knows of my continuing obsession with the accountancy profession and particular auditing processes—or a lack of them—regarding the banking scandal. May I point him to a particular worry about a company called Grant Thornton, which is involved in a relationship with Kaupthing bank in the context of the Icelandic banking collapse? The relationship between that bank and the Serious Fraud Office is a matter of much speculation, and it is believed that £400 million of taxpayers’ money is being held back by Grant Thornton, meaning that the public cannot get it. May we have a debate on the accountancy profession and Grant Thornton’s practices?

[Mr Lansley]

The hon. Gentleman will understand that I am not in a position to comment on any of the specifics in that question. He will have noted that there was an Opposition debate on banking yesterday. In our previous exchanges at business questions, the passage of the Financial Services (Banking Reform) Act 2013 afforded him the opportunity to raise such issues.

[Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con)]

May I draw the attention of my right hon. Friend and hon. Members to the House of Commons Members’ Fund Bill, which I introduced and which is scheduled for Second Reading tomorrow? The Bill will reform the archaic and costly legislation that governs the benevolent fund that exists to help former Members of Parliament and their dependants who fall on hard times. It will reduce costs and reflect changing circumstances, thereby enabling us to forgo a Treasury grant, to suspend the £2 monthly payment that each Member makes to the fund and to return £1 million to the Treasury, while also ensuring that the fund remains capable of meeting ongoing needs given that, sadly, hardship continues to occur among former Members. If the Bill receives its Second Reading, will my right hon. Friend expedite—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. I think that the Leader of the House has got the gist of the right hon. Gentleman’s question.

[Mr Lilley]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Order. I am sorry, but I am sure that the Leader of the House will manage to construct an answer from what the right hon. Gentleman has said.

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend, who chairs the Members’ fund and whose stewardship of it, along with that of his colleagues, has been very effective. I think that anyone who cares to read the explanatory notes accompanying his Bill will appreciate what a sensible and welcome reform he proposes. He might have been wondering whether, if the Bill receives its Second Reading tomorrow, the Government will table a money motion in support of it, and I can tell him that that would be our intention.

[Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)]

The Business Sprinkle Alliance organises fire sprinkler week, which this year will begin on 3 February. The Building Research Establishment and the Centre for Economics and Business Research have published data showing that fire causes £1 billion of losses to the United Kingdom economy every five years. Can we expect a statement from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills in support of fire sprinkler week?

[Mr Lansley]

I will of course draw what the hon. Gentleman rightly says to the attention of my colleagues in BIS. They may well be aware of the facts that he has given, and supportive of what he has said. I think he will agree that, overall, this country’s fire prevention measures have been remarkably successful, but it is nevertheless important for us to maintain them, because there are still occasional tragic instances in which fires result in injuries or fatalities that could have been avoided if the right sprinklers and other preventive measures had been in place.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Business questions probably constitutes one of the most important sessions in the week. We have two star performers who do not need any acting lessons, but the real advantage of being here for business questions is that we learn the truth, as well as new things. Today we have learned from the shadow Leader of the House that the Labour party is in favour of continuing our present relationship with the European Union and is opposed to an EU referendum, and we have learned from the Leader of the House—I do not think that even the Prime Minister has said this—that the Conservative party now wants to return to a common market and nothing else. That is really good news, so will the Leader of the House arrange a debate on whether the EU should become just a common market, and give our Liberal Democrat colleagues the right to vote against that proposal along with Labour Members?

[Mr Lansley]

As I said when I announced the future business, we expect the remaining stages of the European Union (Approvals) Bill to be debated on Monday week. I think that that will give Members an opportunity to continue to debate specific issues relating to the Europe for Citizens programme which, in my view, illustrates the capacity for positive co-operation across Europe that extends beyond the achievement of a common market.

I fear that I must inform my hon. Friend that while I said that I had voted for a common market and that I wanted one, I did not say that I had voted for a common market and nothing else. However, I think that there is as yet unfinished work to be done in the establishment of a single market, and that one of the best things that we can achieve in Europe is to become the strongest and most influential advocates of a competitive single market. I thought that the speech made by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor earlier this week amply illustrated the benefits of that competitiveness to Europe, the necessity of achieving it, and the dangers of not doing so.

[Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)]

Tomorrow marks the 50th anniversary of the closure of North Skelton ironstone mine, which was the last ironstone mine in East Cleveland to close. East Cleveland ironstone fed Teesside’s iron and steel industry from the days of Bolckow and Pease, with great structures such as the Sydney harbour bridge being smelted from East Cleveland iron on the banks of the Tees. More than 30 men and boys were recorded as dying in North Skelton pits, so may we have a debate on making Skinningrove’s East Cleveland ironstone mining museum the nation’s ironstone mining museum?

[Mr Lansley]

I am interested in what the hon. Gentleman says and think that he makes an important point about the history and circumstances of his constituency. I cannot promise a debate, but he has put his important points on record and there may be further opportunities for him to raise them.

[Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)]

May I associate myself with the words of the Front Benchers about Paul Goggins? Paul was a lovely man, and we worked together over the past three or so years as members of the Intelligence and Security Committee. The Leader of the House will be aware that that Committee has got some new and inflated powers, following the passage of the Justice and Security Act 2013. Will he therefore reinstitute the annual debate in Government time on matters of security and intelligence?

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend is right that that Committee has important new responsibilities and powers under that Act. It was not an invariable practice that the Government would hold an annual debate, but it is also the case that, when the Backbench Business Committee was established, it was clear that a number of general debates that had taken place in Government time previously should properly be considered by the Backbench Business Committee as debates in its time. I have had a continuing conversation about that with the Chairs of the ISC and the BBC.

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

Any attack on a place of worship must be condemned so, on behalf of my constituents and those of other Members, may I ask that all the documents in respect of what happened at Amritsar in 1984 that are in the custody and control of the Government are released so that we have full transparency?

[Mr Lansley]

Without wishing to repeat myself, let me say that I completely understand and share the concern the hon. Lady raises, but I urge Members not to prejudge the circumstances then until we know more.

[Mr Lee Scott (Ilford North) (Con)]

With the rise and re-emergence of anti-Semitism across mainland Europe and its links to organisations in the United Kingdom, may we have a debate about how we can stamp out that vile practice?

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question and I think that the whole House will be grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for allocating time for a debate to commemorate Holocaust memorial day next Thursday. Recently, of course, we received the findings of a survey by the EU Agency for Fundamental Rights showing that, regrettably, two thirds of respondents considered anti-Semitism to be a problem, while three quarters said that the situation had got worse over the past five years. While that survey found that the UK Jewish community had more confidence in the authorities here and were less nervous about anti-Semitism than communities elsewhere in Europe, there are too many anti-Semitic incidents, so we need to work actively with civil society to challenge anti-Semitism through education and better reporting, and by tackling hate crime.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

As we have heard about Ministers’ acting lessons, may we have a written statement from the Prime Minister about the cast of characters—the 96—who wrote to him about the European Union, because do not the public and this House have a right to know who are the principal players in the Euro soap opera that is the current Conservative party?

[Mr Lansley]

As I understand it, the premise of the hon. Gentleman’s question is flawed in that the reference to money being paid for drama lessons was in relation to civil servants, not Ministers.

[Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West) (Con)]

As the only Sikh Member of the House of Commons, and as a Sikh who was 16 when the attack on the Golden Temple happened, I would like to advise hon. Members that, 30 years after that event, what Sikhs actually want is an end to rumour, suspicion and speculation. What they all want is the truth, and I ask all Members of this House to avoid politicising this because it is much more important than that.

Turning to my substantive question to the Leader of the House, Wolverhampton council is seeking to close Wolverhampton central baths. A petition has been signed by 6,000 people including myself. May we have a debate on safeguarding valuable facilities such as Wolverhampton baths?

[Mr Lansley]

I completely agree with my hon. Friend, and I hope that Members throughout the House will take on board and follow his prescription in relation to the events in Amritsar. He is quite right to say that the truth needs to be established.

I also completely agree with my hon. Friend’s point about swimming pools. Local authorities have the ability to use their public health resources to look at a wide range of issues, not least because of the reforms brought in by this Government, and I hope that they will consider access to swimming pools as a significant source of support for public health. For example, I recall a scheme—in Birmingham, I think—that provided free swimming opportunities for older people as part of the local authority’s public health measures.

Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab): Shares in Royal Mail closed at 616p yesterday, which was their highest ever price and 90% more than the issue price of 330p. May we have a statement from the Business Secretary on why he sold Royal Mail at 330p, and why he finds it acceptable that the taxpayers of this country lost £750 million?

[Mr Lansley]

The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, my right hon. Friend the Member for Sevenoaks (Michael Fallon) gave evidence to the BIS Committee that amply illustrated how, after many years of failure to secure the necessary private sector investment in Royal Mail, this was a very positive step forward. Securing a successful sale was an achievement. The Secretary of State and the Minister responded to the points put to them, and the Select Committee will report in due course.

[Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con)]

Does not Monday’s welcome news that the Government are going to offer more to communities that might be affected by fracking add to the need for a full debate on the Floor of the House about the community compensation scheme for fracking so that we can determine whether enough is being offered, whether the scheme needs statutory underpinning and how we can protect future funds as an addition to other local government funding?

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend will recall what the Prime Minister said yesterday in response to a question from the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) about this subject—he was very supportive of continuing to discuss it with the Local Government Association. My ministerial colleagues and I will ensure that the House is updated in response to the points that my hon. Friend has rightly raised.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Headlines in the past few days’ papers have stated that sugar is the tobacco of today’s age and warned of the dangerous levels of obesity and diabetes resulting from the addition of sugar, salt and carbohydrates to the foods that we eat. This is not just a health issue. Will the Leader of the House arrange that we have a statement—or, better still, a debate—on this important subject?

[Mr Lansley]

The hon. Gentleman will recall the responses from the Prime Minister yesterday and from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health last week on this issue. I completely agree with the hon. Gentleman; one of the objectives that we are achieving through the responsibility deal is the reduction of sugar in foods in a manner that reflects the successful approach that we have taken to the reduction of salt. This is not something we can unilaterally impose, not least because of the structure of the single market. Making misleading comparisons with tobacco is unhelpful in this context; any consumption of tobacco is harmful, whereas it is the excessive consumption of sugar that is harmful. We want to tackle the inclusion of excessive amounts of sugar in food, and we can do so.

[Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)]

May we have a statement following the visit of the President of Cyprus, Nicos Anastasiades, which resulted in a significant joint communiqué yesterday that reaffirmed the active commitment of the Prime Minister and the President to a comprehensive settlement of the Cyprus problem? Significantly, it included an agreement to allow property development within the sovereign base areas. Does not that demonstrate that the British Government are a true friend of Cyprus?

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his question. Yesterday’s meeting between the Prime Minister and the President of Cyprus was very welcome, and the statement was an important one. I hope that, as a result, there will be opportunities for my ministerial colleagues in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office to set out further details relating to this matter.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

On Monday, the House passed a motion, with massive all-party support, calling for a commission of inquiry into the effects on poverty of the Government’s welfare reforms. I know that the Leader of the House is a great defender of Back-Bench debates and motions. Will he tell us when the Government intend to establish such a commission of inquiry?

[Mr Lansley]

I cannot give the hon. Gentleman any positive response in that regard. Backbench Business Committee debates are important, and we continually look at the conclusions that are reached and the contributions to those debates. However, I cannot give him any specifics about the date of any commission.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

For many years, schools in my county of Leicestershire have bumped along at the very bottom of the education funding league tables, in stark contrast to schools in Leicester city. Each pupil there has £700 more funding than those in the county, while areas in my constituency have severe deprivation. Please may we have a debate on a fairer funding model for schools?

[Mr Lansley]

I hope that my hon. Friend will know that the Government agree that the current funding system—the one we inherited—is unfair and irrational. We have already introduced important reforms to ensure more transparency and consistency in the way in which school budgets are set locally, and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education will announce shortly how we plan to continue the reforms by taking steps to address the current unfair distribution of funding between local areas.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

As the House knows, there is an excellent rock band in the House, MP4, but if Scotland secedes from the Union, it will be MP3. Will the Leader of the House assure us that if that were to happen, proper auditions would be held, with him, to ensure that there is a new keyboard player for MP4?

[Mr Lansley]

It is a matter of regret that I was not able to attend the concert on Tuesday, but I hope it went well and I have listened to the CD.

[Ms Angela Eagle]

Gig.

[Mr Lansley]

Yes, I am still in the 1970s—that is when I used to organise concerts. My approach to this matter would be to say that we are better together.

[Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)]

If the Leader of the House was unfortunate enough to be commuting on the Hertford loop over the past four months, he would know that First Capital Connect and Network Rail have combined to give the most sustained period of heavy delays, cancellations and limited rolling stock, resulting in passengers having to resort to bikes on some days. My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) has joined me in meetings with those companies, but we feel that yet more progress has to be made, particularly with negotiations for a new franchise coming up. Will the Leader of the House find time for us to have a debate on this appalling service in our constituencies?

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend will know that if he were able, with others, to go to the Backbench Business Committee, he might find time in an Adjournment debate or in Westminster Hall to raise these specific issues. However, in order to be as helpful as I can, I will ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport to look specifically at the issues that he and his colleague raise.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

May I ask the Leader of the House once again to look at the issue of housing in this country? Will he examine the terrible combination of the benefit cap, cuts in benefits altogether and the sky-high private sector rents in London, which are leading to the social cleansing of whole areas of our capital city? We need urgent action on this, including a debate on the need to bring in realistic rent controls so that housing is affordable for everyone in this country, not just the privileged minority.

[Mr Lansley]

I assure the hon. Gentleman that this Government are as focused as any Government in recent history on increasing the supply of housing, from the woefully low levels occurring in the years before the last general election. Included in that is the achievement of additional affordable housing; we have 170,000 more affordable houses, following the lamentable decline of more than 400,000 in the number of social houses available under the previous Government.

[Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)]

At the north of England education conference this week, Ofsted chief Sir Michael Wilshaw said that the quality of teaching was improving. He also said:

“We have never had a more motivated, more qualified, more enthused generation of young teachers than we have now”.

That is a very encouraging quote. Please may we have a debate on what is being done to bring the brightest and best into our teaching profession, and to retain them, because that is vital to ensuring that our educational standards keep improving?

[Mr Lansley]

I agree with my hon. Friend. Not only Sir Michael Wilshaw, but The Times Educational Supplement has made it clear that there has probably never been a better time to be a teacher and to join the teaching profession, and the quality of teachers in our schools is at one of the highest levels it has ever been. That is partly because of the reform of initial teacher training, and 74% of graduates entering initial teacher training now have a 2:1 degree or higher—that proportion is the highest on record.

[Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)]

May we have a debate on education, particularly on the refusal of Tory councils to support or invest in community schools? That would give me the opportunity to raise the case of Sulivan school in Fulham, one of the best performing primaries in the country, which on Monday Hammersmith and Fulham council will decide to close and demolish solely so that its site can be given to a free school.

[Mr Lansley]

I cannot comment on the particular case, but I will of course ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education to look at the matter and respond. I will discover more about the circumstances then. In my experience, there is an undoubted determination on the part of councils—I know Hammersmith and Fulham as a council pretty well—to ensure improvement in the provision of schools.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

Earlier this month, we had the welcome news that £29 million is being allocated to Harrow council for the creation of new school places. As a result, 13 schools will get 2,845 new places. That is in direct contrast to two years ago when the then Labour-run council failed even to submit a bid for much-needed school places. May we have a debate, on the Floor of the House, on the issue of school places and on ensuring that there is a place for every child in this country to get a proper and decent education?

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend raises an issue, which I, if I had time available, would welcome a chance to debate. The announcement before Christmas of additional funding for school places was important and welcome. He will know that since 2011 Harrow has been allocated a total of £36 million for new school places and has also benefited from £34 million of investment through the targeted basic need programme, which will fund the expansion of 15 schools by September 2015.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

When can we have a debate to explain to former US Defence Secretary Gates that having a full spectrum of military cover has cost us grievously in the loss of more than 600 of our brave soldiers in two recent avoidable wars? Furthermore, being the fourth highest spender on defence in the world and punching above our weight means that we spend beyond our means and die beyond our responsibilities.

[Mr Lansley]

If we had such an opportunity with the former US Defence Secretary, he would understand that we, like many across the world, have had to take tough decisions on defence spending. However, he would acknowledge that, as a consequence of the decisions this Government have made and the value for money that we are achieving not least in procurement, we have closed that enormous black hole in commitments against resources that our Ministry of Defence had. That has enabled us to plan to spend £160 billion on equipment over the next decade, giving us a formidable range of cutting-edge capabilities. As for the Navy, the new aircraft carrier is almost complete, and the Type 45 destroyers, Type 26 frigates and seven new Astute class submarines are coming into base, which demonstrates that we have the best trained and equipped armed forces outside the United States.

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

The Government’s welcome banking reforms, including the raising of capital, are one part of countering the excessive risk-taking over many years by the banks. Another part of that is for the banks to acknowledge the consequences of that risk- taking. May we have a statement on the slow rate at which banks are looking into things such as the mis-selling of interest rate swaps to so-called unsophisticated investors?

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that. The Financial Services (Banking Reform) Act 2013 will allow us to make important steps in ensuring that we have a banking system that is not prey to the regulatory failures of the past. None the less, he makes an important point about mis-selling in relation to interest rate swaps. I know that my hon. Friends at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills are anxious to make progress in settling that. I hope that the new Financial Conduct Authority will see that as one of its priorities.

[Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)]

Following the reply given to my hon. Friend the Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass), will the Leader of the House clarify in what way the significant over-reporting of bovine TB and its associated costs and consequences will be brought before the House?

[Mr Lansley]

The hon. Lady will have heard me say that although there were statistical errors, they will not have affected the surveillance and they will not have directly affected livestock businesses through costs and impacts. When the statisticians have identified and quantified the errors, there will be an opportunity for Ministers to provide information to the House about the nature of the error.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

May we have a statement from the Home Office to highlight the success of the National Crime Agency in cracking an international paedophile internet ring responsible for the online sex abuse of children living in poverty in the Philippines? Will the Leader of the House take this opportunity to congratulate Northamptonshire police, who first uncovered the ring through a routine investigation of the then registered sex offender and now convicted paedophile Timothy Ford in his home in Kettering? Does that not show that sometimes diligent routine local police work can have important international repercussions?

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question. I was not aware of the role of Northamptonshire police but I am interested to hear about it and I entirely endorse what he has to say about the merits of such diligent police work. The case also demonstrates the importance of the NCA’s focus on some of the issues that are of greatest concern to us all, including child exploitation. The nature of the internet has made it possible for some crimes to be perpetrated across the world and some measures, including the recent ones in Canada, can, along with the international co-operation of which our NCA is a part, give us heightened effectiveness in tackling such organised crime.

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

Why has the Home Secretary not made a statement to the House on the astonishing admission that police crime figures are fiddled to the point of being totally unreliable? Does the Leader of the House agree that that dreadful state of affairs needs to be addressed urgently?

[Mr Lansley]

I think we all agree that it is important that recorded crime statistics are as robust as they possibly can be. One of the first things we did when we came into office was to transfer responsibility to an independent Office for National Statistics. It is doing its job, and that is a reflection of an important step that the coalition Government took. The Home Secretary asked the inspectorate to carry out an audit in June of the quality of crime recording in every police force, and only last week she wrote to chief constables emphasising that the police must ensure that crimes are recorded accurately and honestly. It is worth noting that the separate and wholly independent crime survey for England and Wales, endorsed again yesterday by the ONS, also shows a more than 10% reduction in crime over the same period from 2010. Crime now stands at its lowest level since that survey began in 1981. The evidence is clear that police reform is working and crime is falling.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

May we have a debate on the 2014 index of economic freedom, prepared by the Heritage Foundation, so that the House can explore why the UK is placed 14th on the list and why not a single other EU country is categorised as free, whereas countries such as Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, Switzerland, New Zealand and Canada are categorised as economically free?

[Mr Lansley]

I cannot promise my hon. Friend a debate, but he raises an interesting point. I know the Heritage Foundation and the importance of some of the research that it undertakes. The 1.2 million additional jobs created in this country since 2010 are evidence that illustrates to Europe the positive impacts associated with greater economic freedom. That is something that can be understood and appreciated across Europe.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Late last year, a relative of my constituents died while in prison serving a custodial sentence. He was tried and convicted in England but returned to serve part of his sentence in Scotland under what is called a restricted transfer. As I am sure the Leader of the House is aware, when relatives are unable to afford to pay for a funeral the Prison Service is obliged to make a reasonable contribution to funeral expenses, but because this situation involved a prisoner convicted of an English offence serving in a Scottish prison neither the Scottish Prison Service nor the English Prison Service will take responsibility for this matter. May we have a statement from the Ministry of Justice about how prisoners who are transferred—or, more accurately, their relatives—are dealt with by the Prison Service?

[Mr Lansley]

I can understand why the hon. Gentleman raises that issue on behalf of his constituents. It is regrettable that they were placed in that situation. I do not know the circumstances of the case, but I will ask my right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice and his colleagues to look into it and respond to him as soon as possible.

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

In November, on the Terrace of this place, the Royal Pharmaceutical Society launched the Now or Never campaign on shaping pharmacy for the future. On Tuesday the Secretary of State for Health met me, pharmacists from Devon and Cornwall, including some from my constituency, and a member of the English Pharmacy Board. Given the Leader of the House’s commitment to putting pharmacists at the centre of the NHS, may we have a debate on how, by sharing data with pharmacists, we can work to take the pressure off GPs and accident and emergency units?

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend will know, not least because the all-party group on pharmacy, of which he is a member, has followed these matters carefully, that the last contract under the previous Government promised pharmacists much but delivered very little. There is clearly tremendous potential, previously unrealised, for pharmacies to contribute to public health and prevention, taking the load off the NHS, for example by dealing with minor injuries and medicines management. There is every prospect that NHS England, through its framework pharmacy contract, and clinical commissioning groups have a tremendous incentive to use pharmacies, as do local authorities in relation to some preventive measures. I hope that they will do that. One of the blockages that he rightly refers to under the previous Government was pharmacists’ complete inability to access patients’ summary care records. We need to make it possible for patients to have their conditions monitored and treated and to be provided with medicines in pharmacies through access to that information.

[Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)]

In the light of recent food scandals, including the horsemeat scandal, may we have a debate in Government time on the importance of food labelling, which allows consumers to know what is in the products they are eating and the country of origin? Will he also join me in congratulating Halen Môn Anglesey sea salt on achieving European special status? It is a unique product from a unique county of origin.

[Mr Lansley]

It is indeed, and I join the hon. Gentleman in congratulating Halen Môn Anglesey sea salt on the designation. It is about not only food safety, but preference, because consumers attach importance to quality. Origin labelling gives them access to the sort of information they want.

[Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)]

The scandal at Mid Staffordshire still casts a long shadow over the patients, families and health care professionals in my county. I pay particular tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy)—he is in his place—who has been a sterling champion of local concerns. The Prime Minister has made it clear that he favours having a debate on the matter. Will the Leader of the House find time for such a debate as soon as possible?

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend and join him in thanking our hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) and colleagues across Staffordshire for their assiduous work in following up on the concerns of their constituents. He is quite right that the Prime Minister has made it clear that we are looking to have a debate on the Francis report in due course. As I made clear to the House before, I did not feel that it was appropriate to have such a debate before there had been a full Government response. We had that response at the end of last year, and some of it is being reflected in measures coming forward in the Care Bill. However, I hope that it will still be possible to have a more general debate shortly on the Francis report and the Government’s response, because it raises issues much wider than those specifically covered in the Care Bill.

[Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab)]

When the Government reduced services at Rochdale infirmary and moved some of them to North Manchester general hospital, we were assured by the Pennine Acute Hospitals NHS Trust that adequate public transport would be provided. That clearly has not happened. May we have a debate on the adequacy of public transport links to our local hospitals?

[Mr Lansley]

I completely understand the hon. Gentleman’s concerns about this because, as he will probably recall, as shadow Secretary of State I was very concerned about access for communities not only in Rochdale, but in Bury and in Rossendale and Darwen, to services in north Manchester. I raised those concerns, along with other Members, at the time. Transport for Greater Manchester has a responsibility in relation to this. I know that the Department for Transport is aware of these issues and is raising them with TFGM.

Backbench Business

Thursday 16th January 2014 Commons Chamber

Bangladesh

Thursday 16th January 2014 Commons Chamber

11:40

[Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the current situation in Bangladesh.

I am pleased to see that this debate will be well attended despite the fact that it was arranged at very short notice. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk), who originally tabled it, with my support, at the Backbench Business Committee, but cannot lead it because of previous commitments. I am pleased to share the debate with him, and I know how actively he takes an interest in the subject.

We could not possibly look at the current political situation and sense of instability in Bangladesh without briefly revisiting what has happened in the past, which has helped to form the situation. I was in Dhaka in 2006 when the previous Government led by Khaleda Zia, the Bangladesh Nationalist party and various coalition parties were proceeding with an election in which the Awami League was not participating and which was deemed unfair and undemocratic. The non-participation and civil unrest that ensued led to a takeover by the army. Dhaka was under curfew and chaos ensued as a result.

There has now been another election that both parties came back and contested having spent two years out of the country and out of political engagement while the caretaker Government led by the military were in place. The Awami League won a landslide victory. That was not disputed; the voting was considered to be perfectly within the rules of the electoral process. However, it appears that nothing was learned from those two years in the wilderness or from the grievances expressed against the previous Government. The Government led by the Awami League carried on with an election but there was not full voter participation, to put it mildly—it was about 30%—and there was non-participation by the leading opposition. There were all the similar complaints of non-engagement in Parliament because microphones were switched off, and so on.

I am sorry to say that the democratic process improved by nothing between 2006 and the latest election in 2013. That is deeply disappointing given the amount of the British aid budget that goes into supporting the strengthening of democracy in Bangladesh, such as the training of civil servants.

[Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)]

All of us who have Bangladesh close to our hearts are deeply worried by the situation, particularly, as my hon. Friend rightly says, over the past seven years. There seems to be a sense that that country is again plummeting towards the prospect of some military takeover and martial law. Does she agree that while one inevitably has to look at the history, going back as far as partition in 1971, it is also important that there is a responsibility in the hands of today’s Bangladeshi politicians to draw a line under the past and look with a firm eye to the future?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. We must have shorter interventions. I know that the hon. Gentleman does not want to speak in the debate, but he cannot make a speech in an intervention.

[Mrs Main]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I am sure that others will touch on that matter. On 12 December, before the election, Baroness Warsi, the Senior Minister of State in the other place, went to try to encourage the leaders—Begum Khaleda Zia and the Prime Minister, Sheikh Hasina—to put aside their differences, to park the acrimony and bitter disputes that they have as a historical political narrative, and to continue the process of dialogue.

Our Government, I am proud to say, continue to urge all parties to work together and to strengthen democratic accountability, but unfortunately it is not bearing a lot of fruit. The parliamentary model over there does not reflect ours. There are no shadow teams, so any new Government coming in will not have been actively involved in shadow responsibilities in a Parliament that is regularly empty—I have sat in there.

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. On having confidence in the caretaker system and an Opposition to shadow the Government, a key element for many years was that Bangladesh had caretaker Governments before elections—as in other countries, such as Pakistan—to ensure that the election process was fair and transparent and that all political parties could have confidence in it. It was completely and utterly wrong that that did not happen this time.

[Mrs Main]

My hon. Friend makes a very interesting point that has been raised many times with the all-party group on Bangladesh and other Members with an active interest in the issue. The reason the caretaker Government were introduced was that neither party trusted each other. During the 2006 election, the then Opposition—the Awami League—hotly disputed the fairness of the caretaker system and accused the BNP-led Government of stuffing it with their own supporters and people with influence over, or who owed their jobs to, them.

It was not a perfect system. The Awami League Government had a right under the constitution to alter it and they did so. I completely accept that many of the public disagreed with that decision, but it was recognised internationally that, given that they were elected in an 87% landslide victory, it was within their electoral mandate to make it.

Since the decision was made, I am sorry to say that the country has been in turmoil. Members of the all-party group—some of whom are present—visited the country in September to investigate the collapse of the Rana Plaza and other infrastructure deficits associated with the Tazreen fire and other garment factory fires and collapses. We raised the issue with both leaders and with businesses, asking them what their concerns were about the current unhappiness, debate and instability surrounding the change from the caretaker system—which, despite the fact that it was regularly disputed, was understood—to the leap into a future without such a system. People can have confidence in one system over another only if they truly believe that a caretaker is neutral. I believe that towards the end of the process, as the election loomed, Sheikh Hasina and the Awami League suggested a move towards a version of a caretaker system with Ministers from both sides, but it was not accepted

This is always a matter of dispute. The Bangladeshi Prime Minister told the all-party group—I found this poignant but, oh, so true—that an election has never taken place in Bangladesh without blood and dispute. That has been the case since the birth of the country. The people who suffer are the poor and those whose livelihoods rest on whether the international garment industry, which is dragging Bangladesh—if only it could get its act together—to the fore of a tiger economy, will get fed up.

[Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)]

May I press my hon. Friend on the important point she is making? During our visit to investigate the collapse of the Rana Plaza, was not the clear message from those businesses that perform to ethically high standards that, unless the infrastructure, stability and future of Bangladesh were secure, they could not pledge their continuing support?

[Mrs Main]

My hon. Friend accompanied the team and did a very able job, along with the hon. Members for Rochdale, for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali), for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) and for Birmingham, Ladywood (Shabana Mahmood). We managed to prise out of businesses—some of which did not wish to be identified—their concerns and they are reflected in our report, which we submitted to the Department for International Development. It says that we

“were concerned about the complacent belief in Bangladesh that”

the ready-made garment industry

“will continue to invest in the country for the foreseeable future”,

and that businesses were concerned about the infrastructure problems.

Every building in Bangladesh is liable to collapse in an earthquake, apart from—I am pleased to say that at least our staff will be safe—the high commission building. Many of the buildings that have been turned into garment factories are unsafe in their construction, were never designed for the purposes for which they are being used and are poorly inspected and poorly built, which is threatening this vital economy.

We have suggested that other markets, such as Morocco, Ethiopia and Burma, would be viable alternatives. Political instability, disruption caused in the provision of power and gas and failing infrastructure are all key factors in the slow down of an undeniably excellent growth record.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

I pay tribute to the hon. Lady for her work as chair of the all-party group. I agree with her points about the garment industry. Will she comment on the disturbing reports of attacks on religious minorities, particularly Hindus and Christians, over the past few weeks that have resulted in a large number of deaths?

[Mrs Main]

The hon. Gentleman is another member of the all-party group to whom I pay tribute for his sterling work in raising concerns about this issue. We had a presentation from religious minority groups on how persecuted they are. Unfortunately, it is a failing of any democracy when people are not free to express their religion and belief. Bangladesh is a secular country that has many Muslim believers, but many other religions as well. In 1971, it had the proud aim that it would remain secular. It is also a proud member of the Commonwealth. It is a disservice to that country that people from minority religions now feel so oppressed and intimated, with their temples being daubed and disrupted.

[Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab)]

The hon. Lady is speaking eloquently, and she is a distinguished chair of the all-party group. I want to reinforce the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn). I might be wrong, but I think, statistically, that Bangladesh has the second-largest Hindu population in the world. We are all supporters of Bangladesh—I have a huge Bengali community—but the message we should send from this Chamber is that it must respect the human rights of religious minorities.

[Mrs Main]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I have met Amnesty International and other groups that watch the human rights situation, and I know that that situation has, sadly, been a major source of concern over the years.

When I was in Bangladesh in 2006, I was pretty depressed to read comments in the press about the BNP Government, who were then limping along, giving undertakings to introduce sharia law as part of a coalition deal. That was before the army stepped in. A legal system based on sharia law would certainly disadvantage communities that do not follow that law. The belief espoused in the constitution that Bangladesh should be a secular country and respect other religions was a fantastic aim. It is just sad that on many occasions it has not been delivered.

The hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) mentioned that people are in fear of their lives. There has been significant violence on the streets, with petrol bombings, and the leaders of opposition parties have felt intimidated since the election, while the poor are suffering. According to The Guardian, the recent data are that more than 500 people have died and 20,000 people have been injured in the past 12 months, and that more than 100 people have died since the election.

Other issues are intimidation, disappearances, crossfire and whether the rapid action battalion is out of control. I went to pay my respects to the Prime Minister, Sheikh Hasina, who gave firm assurances that such issues would be investigated. Whoever leads the Government in Bangladesh needs to take them seriously. When we were there, the members of the all-party group made it clear that we do not have any truck with or particular preference about how the election was conducted, so long as it was fair, or about who is in power, so long as they represent the people and do the best for the people, which is not happening at the moment.

[Mark Field]

I very much agree with most of what my hon. Friend is saying, but will she put it in context, because many people may wonder why we are talking about Bangladesh? It is a member of the Commonwealth and there is a big Bangladeshi diaspora in this country, but we also spend more than £150 million a year of DFID money on Bangladesh, much of which is handled very well by Bangladeshis on the ground in Sylhet and Dhaka. Will she tell us more about that and about this country’s commitment to the long-term stability of Bangladesh?

[Mrs Main]

I will not speak for too long, because other people want to take part in this important debate. I am sure that we will all have second bites of the cherry during other Members’ contributions.

A parliamentary answer that I received this week stated:

“Violence and instability are damaging to Bangladesh’s reputation, economy, and to people’s livelihoods. As the largest cumulative investor in Bangladesh, and the largest bilateral grant donor, the UK supports the people of Bangladesh in their aspirations for a more stable, democratic and prosperous future.”—[Official Report, 14 January 2014; Vol. 573, c. 525W.]

My hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) is therefore right that we are a hugely important partner for Bangladesh. That is why we are hearing the views of so many hon. Members, even on a day when many Members, and particularly Opposition Members, have an important event to attend after the death of their colleague. Bangladesh really must take this matter seriously. These are not idle concerns.

There was a report in The Daily Telegraph last Saturday about aid budgets being under threat of being curtailed, cancelled or put on hold. From talking to the Minister of State, Department for International Development, I understand that that is a total misrepresentation. I am glad to have that assurance. Some 70% of our aid to Bangladesh goes to non-governmental organisations, many of which do a fabulous job. The APPG saw some of the projects when we went to Bangladesh. However, the British public, who are also facing tough times, will find it questionable that 30% of our aid goes, in various forms, to the Government. If the Government do not show that they will speak up for and do what is right for all the people of Bangladesh, I do not believe that we should be giving them 30% of the aid. We should give it to the charities and NGOs that are doing a great job and that are accountable. I do not think that we, as one of the largest aid donors, should continue to send money directly to a Government who were elected on 22% of voter participation—some voters felt too intimidated to participate and others that they had no choice—until there is a return of democratic accountability.

[Rehman Chishti]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Mrs Main]

I will give way for the last time, because I am about to finish my remarks.

[Rehman Chishti]

Does my hon. Friend agree that Sheikh Hasina and Khaleda Zia should put aside their venomous personal differences, which go back decades, and put the interests of Bangladesh first so that the country can move forward?

[Mrs Main]

I absolutely agree.—[Interruption.] I can hear the chuckles that are going around the House because we have had these conversations many times.

The APPG has received many representations about how the other side—I will put it in that way, because there is the churn of a wheel and next time it will be a different political group—feels deeply that it is kept out of Parliament, that it does not have an opportunity to speak, that the microphones are switched off and so on. We have been to the Parliament as part of a fact-finding group. The participation in debates is virtually zero because people see no point in participating. Whichever party or coalition is in power has to acknowledge that. We do not have a perfect system here, but we have a system in which strong opposition makes for better governance. By going there in September, the APPG hoped to show that, despite the fact that we may lob political differences across this Chamber, we can work together in an apolitical fashion to discuss what is in the best interests of Bangladesh. We hoped that the unity that we showed would provide a good example.

I am sorry to say that the election and the level of non-participation are plunging the country into disarray. We are expecting a big rally by the BNP on 20 January. More people will be injured and suffer violence on that day. It is depressing to think that we cannot get the parties in a room and around a table to hammer out a way forward before the country dissolves into anarchy.

11:58

[Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) and my hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) on securing this important debate through the Backbench Business Committee at such a critical point for Bangladesh and its future.

I offer my deepest condolences to the families of those who have lost their lives in the terrible clashes over recent months and in the run-up to the election. According to Human Rights Watch, some 300 people have lost their lives since last February in the political violence in Bangladesh. The people of Bangladesh and those who have family connections with it live in fear and with a sense of perpetual frustration at the situation in their country. The hon. Member for St Albans highlighted extremely well the history of the turbulence that the country has suffered since its birth.

The House was critical in supporting Bangladesh’s independence, and many senior Members of all parties played a critical role in its fight for independence, liberal values, secular principles and freedoms. It is a great source of sadness that we are here today debating a situation that could not be more different from the ideals of the founding fathers of my country of birth, which I am proud to say I am originally from. I am proud of the fact that Members throughout the House have championed the cause of the people of Bangladesh, regardless of the political situation or which party is in power.

I commend the members of the all-party group on Bangladesh who joined me and the hon. Member for St Albans, who chairs it, on the delegation last September. We went with the intention of encouraging the parties to work together to move towards free and fair elections and to focus on the challenges facing Bangladesh, whether the recent garment industry accidents and the challenges of labour standards and human rights, or the major challenge of climate change. Bangladesh is the most vulnerable country to climate change, which will lead to some 20 million to 30 million climate refugees in the coming decades. People also face grinding poverty, despite the achievements that have been made on reaching some of the millennium development goals, tackling poverty and promoting girls’ education.

There have been some examples of success, but also political unrest and governance challenges, and the major political parties have failed to find a way of moving towards and achieving free and fair elections. They must focus on the challenges facing one of the most populous countries with a majority Muslim population, not to mention the important minority communities of Hindus, Buddhists, Christians and many others that make up the country and built the nation based on values that we can all share. The leaders of Bangladesh should focus on all the challenges that I have mentioned.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

My hon. Friend is making a heartfelt speech. Those of us who count ourselves as friends of Bangladesh are concerned about what is happening for many reasons. She has mentioned development issues, but is not another tragedy that the progress that Bangladesh has made in recent years in economic and other fields is in danger of being totally undermined by what is happening at the moment? It will do great damage to Bangladesh’s standing in the world in the field of trade and the economy. Is that not yet another reason why the situation should be resolved as soon as possible?

[Rushanara Ali]

I could not agree more with my hon. Friend, who has a long-term interest in countries such as Bangladesh, not least because of his interest in climate change but also because of his interest in the economic development challenges that he rightly mentions. Britain is one of the top investors in Bangladesh, and we have major multinationals that operate there. The current violence stands to put that investment at risk, as the all-party delegation found when we visited recently.

As has been highlighted today, the lack of stability and the lack of focus on investment and on achieving the conditions needed for trade will undermine economic and social development in Bangladesh. It is scandalous and unforgiveable that those in positions of power, of whichever political party, cannot put their differences behind them and focus on the interests, both economic and social, of the country and its people. All political leaders in Bangladesh must face up to that responsibility. That is not about us wringing our hands. Everyone understands that the history of Bangladesh is marred by bloodshed and sacrifice across the political spectrum. The point is that that cycle of violence must stop. Too many lives have been lost and too much is at stake, not only for Bangladesh, but for all of Asia and the international community, for the reasons I have mentioned.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

During the delegation and the meetings with the Prime Minister, was there any discussion of the normality of an interim Government to oversee elections?

[Rushanara Ali]

Members from both sides of the House have on a number of occasions raised the need for interim measures to secure and guarantee free and fair elections. Some raised the need for caretaker Governments, which have served the country well in the past. As the hon. Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) mentioned, other countries such as Pakistan have followed that lead and have expressed their disappointment that the system has been removed.

[Mrs Main]

The hon. Lady is experienced in the matter, but caretaker Governments have not always served the country well. In 2006, the Awami League had no confidence in the caretaker Government and those who participated in it. That is why the army had to take over.

[Rushanara Ali]

I was coming to that. The hon. Lady is well versed in both the recent and earlier history of interim, caretaker Governments. She is right that that is why the caretaker Government system ended up being changed.

The fact is that the opposition parties lack confidence in the election commission. The commission has been recognised by the international community as potentially having the ability to create the framework for free and fair elections but, regrettably, that has not happened. That is what I want to focus on in the rest of my remarks.

Before I do so, I wanted to mention the concerns, which will be shared by colleagues on both sides of the House, of British Bangladeshis in relation to their family members and their ties with their country of origin. Many have important business and trade ties as well as family ties—they support family members, promote education and give wider support through remittances. Half a million British Bangladeshis are deeply concerned about the situation. It is right that we debate the matter because we need to give our attention to what is happening in Bangladesh.

As hon. Members have discussed, our nation has major economic interests as well as development interests—we invest a great deal and give a great deal in development assistance. Those interventions cannot be undermined.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend raises the concerns of the Bangladeshi community, which makes huge contributions to our society in the UK. The debate is important to them, and our actions to help to improve the situation in Bangladesh are supremely important.

[Rushanara Ali]

I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention.

People face a daily grind of transport blockades and national strikes, known as hartals, which undermine trade and investment and create fear for those who want to visit family members and relatives, and for those who have trading ties. In recent months, significant numbers of people have lost their lives—we will hear more about that in the debate—and many have been injured. The backdrop of the war crimes tribunal means a great deal of tension and unrest, alongside the unrest in the run-up to the elections. Such turmoil should be of grave concern to the international community. We need to redouble our efforts to ensure that there is dialogue and an end to the violence.

Turning to the election, half the seats in the January general election were uncontested. Many have complained that the election process was not, by any standards, free and fair. It is deeply disappointing that a significant proportion of the population did not take part or have confidence in the election. Free and fair elections are an essential component of a functional democracy, and when they do not happen it is a disgrace, not least for Bangladesh, which has such a proud history. According to various reports, some 18 people died as a result of election day violence. According to Human Rights Watch, many innocent civilians, including young children, were caught up in the crossfire of violence in the run-up to the elections and on election day.

The EU High Representative, Baroness Cathy Ashton, said that she

“regrets that the main political forces in Bangladesh have been unable to create the necessary conditions for transparent, inclusive and credible elections, despite many efforts, including most recently under UN auspices…The EU remains nonetheless ready to observe the elections should the political conditions allow for the holding of transparent, inclusive and credible elections.”

It is a source of great regret that that has not happened. We need to move forward and ensure that people have confidence in the electoral process and that change occurs.

It is a source of great frustration that the leaders of the major political parties in Bangladesh were not able to reach a compromise that would have led to free and fair elections. The international community’s efforts, whether by the UK Government or my party’s leadership on successive visits by the current Prime Minister and the main Opposition leader Begum Khaleda Zia, or by the UN, the EU and our American allies, have fallen on deaf ears. With the other international challenges in Syria, the middle east and many other countries, the international community has limited capacity. We need the Government and Opposition parties of Bangladesh to recognise that patience is running out. They need to work together to find a solution that respects the interests of the people of Bangladesh.

Members across the House have raised the issue of minorities. I reiterate my condemnation of the violence, the targeting of minorities—particularly of Hindu communities, but of other communities too—and the burning of villages. That is a disgrace for a country whose history—Bengalis were persecuted when they were part of Pakistan—is about a fight for minority rights. It is, therefore, a source of great shame that minorities feel persecuted and have experienced persecution. The all-party group on Bangladesh has been working on this issue, and will continue to pursue it vigorously with colleagues across the House and work with the Government to ensure that our voice is strong and united in highlighting that this is of deep concern. The Government must act to protect minorities in Bangladesh.

There are great concerns about how the law enforcement agencies have acted. The law must be enforced in a proportionate manner and people must have the right to protest peacefully. The onus is also on all groups to protest peacefully, and we have all seen that that has not always been the case. The Bangladeshi Government and the Opposition have a responsibility to ensure that their supporters behave with restraint when they protest.

The hon. Member for St Albans raised the issue of the main leader of the Opposition being essentially under house arrest. That is of grave concern to everyone. Political leaders must have the right to take part in elections. As she rightly said, the pendulum has swung the other way. The cycle of violence, opposition and boycotts of Parliament must come to an end or Bangladesh will remain in a perpetual déjà vu experience of never being able to move on, and history will continue to repeat itself.

Bangladesh has the potential to advance economically. The World Bank states that growth rates are at about 6%, and Goldman Sachs predicts that it could be one of the next 11 countries to become a middle-income country. It has made progress in tackling poverty and improving girls’ education. However, the political dimension to the challenges facing Bangladesh stands to undermine those achievements and the country’s potential. Strategically, it is well placed, with the biggest global markets of India and China on its doorstep, but none of these opportunities are being maximised. Indonesia, another Muslim-majority country, is showing the way, though it too has challenges, with a growing economy and social development, so there is no reason why Bangladesh cannot move forward and achieve—if it gets its political house in order.

I appeal to those in Bangladesh listening to today’s debate to find ways to work together in the interests of the people of Bangladesh and not for partisan, political self-interest. That is the challenge for everyone in Bangladesh, as it is in any country. I hope that, as we move forward, we can work as partners and continue dialogue, despite our frustrations, to try to achieve free and fair elections and move beyond what has happened in recent months.

Will the Minister highlight what representations have been made to the Government of Bangladesh to relay our concerns about the elections and the violence? What discussions have there been with our EU and US allies, as well as the UN, since the elections? What steps will be taken to highlight our concerns? What will happen to our development assistance and trade and investment links with Bangladesh?

As the only person of Bangladeshi-British origin in the House, I take it upon myself to thank all hon. Members for their continued interest in Bangladesh. Despite the frustration that colleagues feel, it is a tribute to them that they continue to take an interest in Bangladesh. It is a country with so much potential, talent and dynamism, and its people want to get on, achieve and progress. Sadly, its politics are holding them back. We are united in wanting to see a future that is peaceful, stable and democratic. I hope we can all work towards that.

[Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)]

What my hon. Friend has said today reflects the wishes of the Bangladeshi community in Coventry. There are a large number of Bangladeshis in my constituency and I think they would appreciate her efforts, since she has entered this House, in the interests of the people of Bangladesh. A lot can be done when people get together—the UN, the UK, the US and others—with good will.

[Rushanara Ali]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his comments and suggestion. I know that we can all work towards that aim.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. I am not imposing a time limit, but I suggest that hon. Members take about 10 minutes each. If they do, we will get through nicely.

12:19

[Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)]

It is a pleasure and, in this context, an honour to follow the hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali), whose remarks struck exactly the right tone. I also compliment the hon. Members for St Albans (Mrs Main) and for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) on securing this debate and note the wide interest in it, including from the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), who is unusually silent. He has to remain quiet, being on the Treasury Benches, but I know he has been a great friend to the Bangladeshi and Bengali communities in his constituency.

Today’s debate reflects the traditionally strong cultural, political, business and diplomatic ties between Bangladesh and the UK. We are fellow sovereign states within the Commonwealth, we are allies in the battle against climate change, in the UN framework convention talks and elsewhere, and there remains the strong relationship fostered by the work of the British Government as part of their historic achievement of spending 0.7% of national wealth on overseas development assistance. The £238 million that DFID spent in Bangladesh in 2013-14 has had an enormous impact: 205,000 more births attended by skilled carers who would not have been there otherwise; 295,000 women giving birth more safely and with better care for their infants; 24 million people benefiting from better protection against floods, cyclones and the impact of climate change, thanks to early-warning systems; and millions benefiting from better water and sanitation. This is a proud record and a demonstration of this country’s commitment to the success of Bangladesh. I should also mention our assistance with transparency and anti-corruption measures, supported by the Bangladeshi Government, and championed by the previous Secretary of State for International Development, the right hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Mr Mitchell). It is right to pay particular tribute to his commitment to getting value for money for the British taxpayer from that spending in Bangladesh.

It is also right to point out the contribution of the Bangladeshi community to this country. About 500,000 people of Bangladeshi origin live in the UK, employing millions and contributing massively to the British economy and, in particular of course, contributing to British digestion and cuisine. My constituency does not have a huge Bangladeshi community, but its presence in the restaurant trade is still significant. We have the Krori family’s Curry Corner, which rose to national fame through Gordon Ramsay’s television programme; we have Mohammed Rahman’s Spice Lodge, which was a national finalist in the British curry awards and the Tiffin cup, organised in this place; and we have Abdul Mannan’s Brasserie Group, which owns 20 businesses in the Gloucestershire area, employing many people and contributing massively to the local economy. Those people are active members of the local area, supporting communities not only in Cheltenham and Gloucestershire, but back home in Bangladesh—remittances are an important part of the relationship between the two countries. Mr Rahman contributes to primary education, helping students to remain in education, while another constituent, Mr Arosh Ali, has founded a charity to help the Nowder district, and only recently, the wonderful new Koloshi restaurant hosted a fundraising event for victims of the Rana Plaza disaster and for advocacy of their rights—another important aspect.

I recently attended the first Bangladesh victory day celebration in Gloucestershire, which saw 300 people gather at Cheltenham race course to remember the history of Bangladesh and to remind people, especially the young generation, of the country’s difficult birth. Millions were displaced and hundreds of thousands—perhaps as many as 3 million—lost their lives in that terrible conflict, which was the birth pang of the state of Bangladesh. Despite its difficult beginnings and years of political violence, however, there are enormous achievements to Bangladesh’s credit: it still has the institutions of democracy and the rule of law, it has, as hon. Members have said, enormous economic potential, and it has achieved a lot in development.

The UN development programme has highlighted the achievements of Bangladesh in reaching many of the millennium development goals—targets set in the 1990s that many people at the time thought were unrealistic for many countries. Bangladesh has reduced the poverty gap ratio from 17% to 6.5% since 1990; attained gender parity at primary and secondary education; reduced under-fives’ mortality; contained HIV infections through access to antiretroviral drugs; reduced the prevalence of under-weight children, which has nearly halved from a staggering 66% to 36.5%, virtually meeting the 2015 target of 33%; seen increasing enrolment in primary schools; reduced the infant mortality rate, and so on. Many challenges remain—the incidence of poverty is still enormous; hunger and poverty reduction, primary school completion and adult literacy rates are still a challenge; and the creation of a decent wage economy, particularly for women, is also an enormous challenge—but much has been achieved.

As hon. Members have rightly said, this progress will be threatened if a fundamentally peaceful and democratic environment is put at risk. There is no simple solution to this problem and no simple blame to be attributed—I have been lobbied by constituents with views on all sides of the debate between the political parties—but I am afraid that the current election situation fits into a pattern of distrust bred by worrying developments in Bangladeshi democracy. The Foreign Office’s latest human rights report emphasises that politics is still done in a violent and confrontational atmosphere, as has been true for many years, as the hon. Member for St Albans said. The situation has echoes of 2006. Human Rights Watch makes it clear that the Awami League Government have many questions to answer, not just about the controversial decision to abandon the system of caretaker Governments during elections, but about press freedom and the imprisonment of political opponents. The decision to suspend the system of caretaker Governments at election time might have been technically justified—after all, there is an independent electoral commission in Bangladesh supported by the British Government—but it clearly further undermined the confidence of civil society and political parties that the elections could be conducted freely and fairly.

[Rehman Chishti]

A country that I know well, Pakistan, which shares much history with Bangladesh and many of the sad stories of military takeovers and political parties with bitter differences, agreed on a caretaker Government last year and saw its first transition from one civilian Government to another. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that if the caretaker system, with the support of the electoral commission, has worked well in Pakistan, it can work well elsewhere, including in Bangladesh?

[Martin Horwood]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. It is not just about the technical merits of electoral commissions or caretaker Governments; it is about building confidence and consensus across the political spectrum.

The Bangladeshi Nationalist party and other opposition parties have to tread carefully too. Boycotting elections, abandoning the democratic high ground of participation and calling for the overthrow of elected Governments is a dangerous path to tread. Opposition groups and activists have clearly been involved in violence, and there have been accusations, particularly against some of the most controversial members of the opposition, including parties such as Jamaat-e-Islami, of violence against Christian and Hindu minorities, which is particularly concerning. However, hon. Members should avoid taking sides too clearly. I spoke to a Bangladeshi constituent this morning who said that the provision of a caretaker Government was no panacea and not necessarily a solution, as the hon. Member for St Albans pointed out. In a lovely phrase, he said that the two ladies, Khaleda Zia and Sheikh Hasina, held the future of Bangladesh in their hands. It is for those two women to come together and try to overcome this history of hostility and distrust. He said that dialogue was the only solution and that all the progress and potential would be put at risk if it did not happen.

Let me finish by asking the Minister a couple of questions about what practical steps the UK is taking to put pressure on both sides to get that dialogue going and to engage in meaningful negotiation. In particular, are we collaborating with the Government of India in trying to exercise that kind of pressure? Given its success in negotiating issues between Serbia and Kosovo—almost equally unpromising at the time—will we use the offices of the European External Action Service to exercise that pressure? What more can be done for us to make some practical impact on the situation? It would be a tragedy if a country that has suffered so much, yet which has such potential and has achieved so much in many ways, descended into violence yet again.

12:30

[Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab)]

I thank the Backbench Business Committee for providing the time to debate such an important issue—the debate is indeed timely. Let me thank, too, the hon. Member for St Albans (Mrs Main)—perhaps I should say hon. Friend—for helping to ensure that this debate took place and for her excellent chairmanship of the all-party parliamentary group on Bangladesh.

It is worth reminding ourselves that Bangladesh is the eighth largest country in the world and is an exceptionally important member of the Commonwealth. Closer to home, as I think has been said, there are around half a million British Bangladeshis living in the UK. We have very strong economic links with Bangladesh, and it is important to debate this today.

We are aware, not least from what previous speakers have said, that Bangladesh has a history dominated by political factionalism, which came to a head on 5 January this year, with much violence taking place on election day—the country’s 10th parliamentary election day. I believe that there should have been an interim caretaker Government—a point I made to Sheikh Hasina when we visited Bangladesh in September last year, but she was clearly not in favour of that. I believe that was a mistake. I understand why the Bangladesh Nationalist party boycotted the elections, failing to contest 147 seats. In a Parliament of 300 seats, the incumbent Awami League and its party allies now hold 232 of them. It is the first time in 23 years that there has been no political opposition in Bangladesh. We can only imagine what this place would be like if there were no political opposition—[Hon. Members: “Wonderful”.] Well, they would say that.

Reference has already been made to the fact that, as a result of the political turmoil, 180 people have died in Bangladesh since October. On election day, 21 deaths occurred and 47 constituencies were forced to shut down their voting stations because of the violence. It has been reported that voting booths were set on fire and that mob intimidation was commonplace. It is not surprising that the electoral turnout was exceptionally low; people were genuinely afraid of injury or death. As a result, Bangladesh’s economy and its general infrastructure have received a destructive blow and I am seriously concerned that if action is not taken soon, we could see a rapid deterioration.

[Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)]

Is my hon. Friend as alarmed as I am that the International Monetary Fund has, as a result of many of the things he has mentioned, downgraded the Bangladeshi growth forecasts into 2014?

[Simon Danczuk]

I was not aware of that, but growth is a major concern to which I shall return, and I appreciate my hon. Friend’s point.

I have three main worries for Bangladesh at this time. The first is the impact on the country’s democracy. We are extremely fortunate in this country that we have a relatively peaceful political culture. That has grown over many years and generations, not by accident but through co-operation and the determination to have peaceful elections. We accept that the winner of our elections has the right to govern. Bangladesh is a young country—it was created in 1971—and it has been steadily making progress on building democracy. We should celebrate that, but I am concerned that this particular election may well derail democracy there. The irony is that the people of Bangladesh are crying out for their voices to be heard.

[Nick de Bois]

The hon. Gentleman may remember from our trip, as I do, the memorable scenes when we drove out from Dhaka when for miles and miles we saw people—in fact supporting one political party—queuing up in expectation of their leaders. Is not the great failure here that a nation of people who love democracy is in effect being betrayed by their political leaders?

[Simon Danczuk]

That is an excellent point. The impression one gets from visiting Bangladesh is, as the hon. Gentleman says, that people have a strong desire for democratic politics and view politics in a positive light. It seems almost ironic that we should end up with the country in the position it is in now.

My second major concern about Bangladesh is the violence. I am worried that violence could escalate even further in the coming weeks and months. We have seen from around the world that when opposition groups are excluded from the political process, there is a risk of the more moderate groups being squeezed out, with extremists on all sides gaining greater prominence. We can see that from experience in Northern Ireland and, more recently, in Syria.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

In the elections my hon. Friend encountered on his visit to Bangladesh, did the issue of the maintenance of a secular constitution come up? Does he agree that an important fact in the country’s history is that it is a secular constitutional democracy?

[Simon Danczuk]

That issue did not come up during my visit, so far as I can recall, but my hon. Friend is right to point out that this could be viewed as a healthy aspect of Bangladesh’s politics.

My third and final worry concerns economic development. In recent years, as has been pointed out, the country has made great strides forward in that respect. Gross domestic product growth has been at 6.1% and Bangladesh is on track to meet the goal of halving income poverty by 2015. Despite that, Bangladesh is not a rich country. As I have seen for myself, millions live in desperate poverty.

[Mrs Main]

The hon. Gentleman will recall that when we were in Bangladesh, we saw some excellent factories that were internationally run but, as the hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali) said, we also saw sweatshops. If Bangladesh does not want to go back to being an immensely poor country full of sweatshops, it needs international buyers, but they are being scared off by all these problems.

[Simon Danczuk]

The hon. Lady is exactly right. I was coming on to make the point that if this political instability continues, there will be real concerns for Bangladesh’s economic development. The constant strikes, boycotts, violence and sabotage will cost the country literally millions of pounds in lost productivity.

So what next? The first thing that needs to happen is an end to the violence by both sides and the reopening of dialogue, at least between the two major parties, which need to agree on a way forward to end the current uncertainty. Hon. Members will be aware that other countries in the international community—the United States, Canada and the European Union—have already called for fresh elections. I would urge our Government to take a similar view and to press for that to happen. International observers should be present at elections and I believe that there should be an interim caretaker Government.

Whatever route is taken, it is clear that the welfare of the people of Bangladesh must be the top priority. Bangladesh can be a model for other countries to follow, but it must first leave behind the factionalism and the division that have haunted its politics. Most ordinary people in Bangladesh are tired of the bickering and the violence; what they want is a better life for themselves and their families. I believe that it is time for the voices of those people to be heard. Bangladesh must focus on the future, and not dwell on the past.

12:39

[Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)]

I thank the hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) for his initiative in enabling Members to comment on the situation in Bangladesh. I also echo others in thanking the chair of the all-party group on Bangladesh, my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans (Mrs Main), who has earned the trust and the gratitude of Members through her exceptional leadership of a group that has covered a number of important issues during the past few years.

I listened with particular interest to the hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali), who spoke with great expertise about this topic, as she does about many others, and I shall begin my speech where she began hers. The impact of the terrible situation in Bangladesh can be measured by the disruption, violence and deaths that affect the lives of ordinary Bengalis in Bangladesh, and also by the natural sympathies and empathies that British Bengalis feel in relation to not just their family members and people from their villages, but the future of their country, given the direction that it has taken under the current political leadership of the Government and Opposition parties.

Effective democracies require good governance, and good governance requires not just the letter but the spirit of the constitution to be followed. Constitutions are not dry documents on which the ink settled many years ago; they are living documents, and they are given life by the people and partisans who take on public life in democracies to achieve a better outcome for their constituents and their countries. If politicians are to operate effectively, a discourse must take place between the leaders of political parties. Beyond the clash of personalities and the partisanship of party labels, there must be a fundamental understanding of the operation of politics to which both political parties acquiesce, and that requires compromise. It is clear that such a situation has not existed in Bangladesh in the recent past.

As many Members have observed, the present situation in Bangladesh cannot be viewed in isolation from the sequence of events that led to it. What appeared to many members of the all-party group over the past few years to be a drift away from democracy now appears to be an active pursuit of one-party or one-coalition rule. Let me list the steps that have been taken that I believe point to there being an active strategy, rather than an unconnected series of events.

Many Members have rightly observed that we should look at the actions of both political parties and should not take sides. That is fair, but only up to a point. I believe that a particular responsibility lies with the governing party of the day. As I list these steps, I think it will become clear, in the case of each of them, that there were decisions to be made, that those decisions were made by the governing party and that, as a result, that governing party is accountable for them. I hope that the Minister will convey to us some of his thoughts about the actions that he would like the current Government of Bangladesh to have undertaken in each instance.

Let me begin by describing the actions of the Rapid Action Battalion. Like many organisations, it was organised with good intentions—the purpose was to crack down on crime—but, in effect, it is an extra-judicial squad that goes around randomly arresting people and potentially involving itself in wide-ranging corruption. It has a habit of killing ordinary civilians in what Human Rights Watch has euphemistically called “crossfire”. By 2010, more than 600 people had been reported to have been killed by the Rapid Action Battalion in such “crossfire” incidents. Its action has continued, and the Awami League-led Government have shown no ability whatsoever to bring it under control.

Imagine, Madam Deputy Speaker, an extra-judicial killing squad roaming around the countryside in Epping Forest or other parts of our United Kingdom, and the Government of the day not taking any action as a result. I think that serious questions would be asked in the House and that the whole of our free society would require the Government to take action, but that has not happened in Bangladesh.

[Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)]

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will confirm that serious questions have been raised for years about the integrity of the Rapid Action Battalion and the way in which it has operated. That has happened under both Governments, which makes it doubly depressing that the force seems still to be operating with total impunity.

[Richard Fuller]

I entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman. When issues persist under this Government, he rightly asks the Government questions in the House about how they are dealing with them—that is the right thing to do. Responsibility now lies with the Government in Bangladesh, who are allowing that force to continue its extra-judicial killing.

[Gavin Shuker]

I agree with much of the hon. Gentleman’s powerful speech. Is he aware that people who in are exile from Bangladesh following the most recent elections have themselves made allegations about the behaviour of the Rapid Action Battalion? One man said that he had been forced to leave the country as a result of a threat issued by the RAB that was simply, “Either you disappear from this country, or you will disappear.”

[Richard Fuller]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for bringing that to my attention. I think that it emphasises the need for accountability on the part of the Bangladesh Government, and the need for them to bring that force under control.

The second instance in which decisions were made and actions were required involves the sequence of political disappearances in Bangladesh. That, too, has been continuing for a number of years under different political parties. However, when a series of what might be called junior political operators—people who have just become involved in politics—start to disappear, it is the responsibility of any Government to take that very seriously indeed. It is their responsibility to use all the resources at their disposal to try to identify the circumstances that led to those disappearances, to find out who was responsible for them, and to bring whoever was responsible to justice.

This issue has particular poignancy for me because of the disappearance of Ilias Ali, the former Member of Parliament for Bishwanath. I met him in 2011 when he visited Bedford and brought to my attention the growing problem of political disappearances in Bangladesh. I listened to him intently. I was getting to know him and I thought that he was an interesting fellow, but I sort of thought, “Well, you would say that, wouldn’t you, because you are from the political opposition.” I wish that I had listened to him more. Then, in 2012, I saw him in Sylhet. He said “Richard, I am worried about the disappearance of one of my student political leaders.” I was a bit more concerned on that occasion, but I wish that I had listened to him then, because two weeks later, he himself disappeared.

Even now, no one knows what has happened to Ilias Ali. I do not believe that the Bangladeshi Government are wantonly trying to avoid bringing people to justice, but I do hold the Government of the day accountable for continuing political disappearances in a state that they are supposed to be governing.

Let me now give my third example. We have talked a little about the war crimes trials in Bangladesh. They, too, were begun with the best of intentions, with the aim of bringing about reconciliation; indeed, the international community was very happy with the structures that were established. It has taken a long time for the people involved in the wars of liberation in Bangladesh to be brought to trial.

I consider any system of justice that ends in the death penalty to be inherently flawed, because I do not believe in the death penalty as any form of justice. Notwithstanding the potential death penalty, however, the war crimes trials went from auspicious beginnings to become a very tainted process. Indeed, The Economist reported that the chief justice, Mohammed Huq, had to resign after he had

“prohibited contact with the prosecution and Government officials.”

The process was further tainted when the rules of trial, which permitted providing for a life sentence, were rewritten so that a death penalty could be imposed on someone, who was subsequently hanged. That undermines people’s faith that, when they are looking for justice, the Government of the day are on their side.

[Mrs Main]

My hon. Friend is making a hugely powerful speech. War crimes were carried out on all sides, in effect, and there have been major accusations about retaliations and retributions, and that only certain people are being pursued for their crimes, rather than there being a process of looking at the crimes as a whole and holding people to account regardless of the party they happen to be involved in. That is not justice either.

[Richard Fuller]

The chair of the all-party group makes a powerful point that adds to this picture of a sequence of actions that were impacting on political and everyday society in Bangladesh. It was the responsibility of the Government of the day to handle and manage that, but they failed to do so. With the elections and the situation in Bangladesh, a clear thread can be drawn through all activities and actions up to the present day.

[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

On the point about the war crimes tribunals, when representatives of the Awami League in Birmingham came to see me, I made the point that they were responsible for the rules that enabled the death penalty to be used for an Opposition politician. It is clear that that fits within the pattern that has been put forward by the hon. Gentleman.

[Richard Fuller]

I appreciate that intervention from my hon. Friend.

The fourth aspect that the House needs to consider is the issue of the caretaker Government system, which other Members have mentioned. My hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) said that that works in other countries. It is perfectly legitimate for countries to determine how they want to handle their own elections, and it is not for the House to tell another country how it should handle its elections, but it is certainly a responsibility of this House to say how effective those systems are in maintaining and promoting democracy, because we have an interest in promoting freedom and democracy around the world, and certainly in countries that are fellow members of the Commonwealth.

The all-party group has persistently called on the current Government in Bangladesh to install a caretaker Government system. Again, the decision was taken by the Government, not the Opposition. The Opposition leader wanted to see that system, but it was the Government who refused to introduce it—there was an obstinate refusal to accept the caretaker Government system. We did not need to have the wisdom of Solomon to understand where we were heading two years ago into this election, and to know that if Bangladesh did not have a caretaker Government system, it would end up in its present situation. That, again, is a responsibility of the current Government in Bangladesh.

[John Hemming]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Richard Fuller]

I will not, as I know that other Members wish to speak.

My final point is about political arrests and detentions. In circumstances in which there were just one or two instances, and if they were connected to a particular crime, a functioning democracy could operate an election—that can work. However, if such a thing is persistent and not tied to a particular criminal act, and if the leader of a political party is detained in their own home, how on earth can an effective election be held? People might say that locking up some of our political leaders here might help our election chances—my hon. Friends might think it could help them in the 2015 election. Seriously, however, how on earth can we believe that the international community is going to say that there has been a free and fair election if the leader of the leading opposition party is not permitted to leave her own home?

These are a series of indictments against the current Bangladesh Government: the failure to secure and limit the extra-judicial killing by the Rapid Action Battalion; the failure to follow up the disappearances of a wide range of people involved in politics; the tainting of what should have been war crimes trials that could have brought the country together; the obstinate refusal to permit a caretaker Government; and the arrest and detention of political opponents.

Let me finally talk about some actions that I would like to see. It is appropriate for the Department for International Development to review its expenditure in Bangladesh, but I urge the Minister to ensure that our response to the political turmoil in Bangladesh does not harm the interests of ordinary Bengalis who need support through the alleviation of poverty. Secondly, despite what I have said, I urge the UK Government to continue to work with the Government of Bangladesh to pursue a solution to the current turmoil. Four steps are required, however: the full release of political detainees; the installation of a caretaker Government; the disbanding of the Rapid Action Battalion and an external investigation into its activities; and more work and more investment from the UK to strengthen business and trade with Bangladesh, in order to promote entrepreneurship and the growth of business, because that can be the strongest bulwark in the defence of freedom in countries around the world. If we can achieve those four things, they will provide a more effective transition to a peaceful future and a new election in Bangladesh than hoping that somehow, after decades of hostility, the two political leaders themselves will miraculously come up with the solution through discussions.

12:56

[Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller), who is an active member of the all-party group and demonstrates his deep knowledge of the issues we are discussing. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) on his initiative in securing this debate from the Backbench Business Committee and welcome the support from the chair of the all-party group, the hon. Member for St Albans (Mrs Main). I also commend her on the way in which she framed this debate in her excellent opening contribution which was balanced, constructive and informed, and demonstrates why she is our leader as chair of the group. We are very grateful for the work she puts into making it as active and involved as it is.

What we are hearing is shared despair at the situation in Bangladesh. I am a vice-chair of the all-party group and I have visited the country on five occasions. I have some 15,000-plus constituents in Poplar and Limehouse whose family are from Bangladesh. Some of them support the Awami League and others support the Bangladesh Nationalist party, and I suspect there are even some who support Jamaat.

My wife is a trustee of the Sreepur village orphanage in Bangladesh and I am a patron. It has being going for 25 years this year and looks after 1,000 destitute mums and kids in Bangladesh. We in Britain are proud of it because it was founded by a British Airways stewardess, Pat Kerr, and promoted by the BBC and British Airways. I also did a two-week stint in Dhaka in Bangladesh in 2008 with my wife on Voluntary Service Overseas. As an aside, I add that my most memorable headline was secured during that visit when, as part of our activities with the non-governmental organisation to which we were attached, we visited Bangladesh’s largest legal brothel, with 1,800 prostitutes, to look at the sexual health advice and the anti-HIV/AIDS activity it was promoting. The headline in the Dhaka Daily Star the next morning was “British Aviation Minister visits brothel.” That was not the most encouraging information No. 10 received that September, but I still managed to front the Labour Government’s initiative on additional aviation capacity in the south-east, which fortunately the Davies commission now seems to be agreeing with. I have strong connections with Bangladesh, therefore.

The international reaction from Washington, Beijing, Brussels and the UN has been consistent, as it has been in the Chamber today. All are calling for calm, for dialogue and for a fresh approach.

Many Members have pointed out that Bangladesh is a young democracy, that it is one of the poorest countries in the world, and that it suffers greatly from climate change, but it also has strong international support, and it has made dynamic economic progress in its young history and demonstrated great generosity and spirit. That is what makes recent events doubly disappointing, especially after the 2008 election, which had a turnout of nearly 90% and was declared to have been free and fair.

Subsequent problems have arisen over the war crimes tribunal, the international caretaker electoral arrangements, the use of the death penalty—the hon. Member for Bedford mentioned the adjustments to that—the use of punishments, the unprovoked violence from political extremists and the concerns about overreaction. These have all conspired to exacerbate the problems facing Bangladesh.

Given the progress made since the 1971 war of independence, the country’s political leaders have serious questions to answer. Both the main political parties have demonstrated immaturity and petulance. The Awami League and the BNP have both boycotted Parliament after election defeats, but both came to their senses. The representation by the hon. Member for St Albans of the history of the problems of the Governments and the different systems involved was a fair one. She demonstrated the open support in this House and across Britain for the Bangladeshi political parties to get together to resolve their difficulties. The challenge for Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina and the Awami League is how to reach out to Begum Khaleda Zia and the BNP and rebuild confidence. Without stabilisation, Bangladesh’s world standing could be reduced, which would harm its economy. No one wants to see that outcome.

Yesterday, I and other colleagues met minority groups based in the UK. They were citizens demonstrating in Parliament square to raise their concerns about the violent attacks on Sikhs, Hindus, Christians and others in Bangladesh, which occur regularly at election time. Those attacks must be condemned. Jamaat supporters have been accused of orchestrating a lot of them, but whatever their source, they must be stopped. Both the main parties need to do more to protect the minority communities and to condemn all political, ethnic, religious or cultural violence.

[Rehman Chishti]

The hon. Gentleman mentions Jamaat. He must have seen the recent statement that Jamaat will not be able to contest any elections in future. If that is the case, might it not result in further violence in Bangladesh? We have only to look at what has happened elsewhere with the Muslim Brotherhood; if Jamaat goes underground, there is more likelihood of violence, and that needs to be addressed.

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

That is a genuine concern. The right balance must be struck in regard to political freedom and the free expression of ideas through democracy, argument and reasoning, and the possible defeat of those ideas at the ballot box. Jamaat has not been prohibited in Bangladesh, although it has been accused of being a terrorist organisation. One would oppose the ambition of some in Bangladesh to create an Islamist republic, but I understand that it is something that some people want. However, they form a tiny minority. In the last election, I think Jamaat got less than 4% of the popular vote. That demonstrates Bangladesh’s great support for its democracy and its secularism.

I do not think that the political parties in Bangladesh need to be frightened or provoked by Jamaat, or stampeded by it. Arguments can be made that will beat it through the electoral process. The BNP has been in alliance with it, and many commentators are calling on that party to dissociate itself from Jamaat in order to create more political space. I understand that, historically, the Awami League had an alliance with Jamaat. These days, however, Jamaat is putting forward a much clearer political point of view, and the main parties should all dissociate themselves from it and let it stand on its own two feet.

[John Hemming]

I endorse what the hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) have said so far. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, in order to build trust and ensure that there are fresh elections, the institution of a caretaker Government will be necessary?

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

I believe that the calls for new elections are premature at this point. Holding elections immediately would only play into the hands of those who have tried to sabotage the recent ones. The international community has a job to do in stabilising relations within Bangladesh, in giving support to the BNP and the Awami League, and in creating a climate in which elections can take place. I cannot see the Awami League staying in power for a full five-year term; that would be against the spirit of what has happened so far, and against the spirit of what has been said in the Chamber today. It will be very difficult to get to a situation in which elections can take place, however.

[Richard Fuller]

I want to make it clear that it is important for new elections to be held in the near future. The last election did not confer legitimacy. Does the hon. Gentleman believe that it would be okay to go on for two or three years before having a new election, or should one be held within months, as happened in 1996?

[Jim Fitzpatrick]

The timing of a new election is difficult. I do not think it should be five years hence; it should be held within weeks or months, but I think it will take a bit longer than that. A certain political climate has existed in Bangladesh for several months now, as the all-party group’s visit in September confirmed, and it would not be in Bangladesh’s best interests to call an election now. However, I understand the ambition—and I support the call—for free and fair elections to give greater validity to whoever is in power.

The recent election has produced nothing but losers. The Awami League has lost some of its moral authority, the BNP clearly lost the election, and Bangladesh has lost some of its international reputation because of its damaged democracy. However, online reports yesterday from The Daily Star in Bangladesh seem to offer some hope. The reports of consensus talks and co-operation between the Awami League and the BNP are encouraging, but there is a long way to go.

In conclusion, I too want to ask the Minister what contact the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have had with their Bangladeshi counterparts. What message are we sending to Dhaka and to Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina? Everyone, including the British Government, our high commissioner in Dhaka and the Bangladeshi high commissioner here, wants to see peace and a healthy, secular democracy thriving in Bangladesh. Getting there will be very challenging, however, and I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response to the debate.

13:08

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick), who has a long, distinguished history with the people of Bangladesh. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) and the hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) on initiating the debate through the Backbench Business Committee, and on giving Members an opportunity to express their views on this important matter.

I start from the principle that we should exercise caution when commenting on another country unless we have had a chance to visit it and see the situation on the ground at first hand. I had the good fortune to visit Bangladesh some 18 months ago, as part of a trip organised by the Conservative Friends of Bangladesh. My hon. Friends the Members for St Albans and for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) and I saw at first hand many of the issues that have been raised today. I have to say that the Parliament in Bangladesh was bizarre. We three Members were greeted almost like visiting royalty. We were presented to the Parliament, which was half empty, and witnessed its Prime Minister’s question time. It was a far cry from what we experience in this House each week. Questions to Government Ministers were scripted and delivered by Government Back Benchers only. No members of the Opposition asked any questions whatever of the Prime Minister, because they were not there—

[Mrs Main]

And there were no interventions.

[Bob Blackman]

Indeed. Clearly, a fledgling democracy that has not yet established itself into a proper parliamentary democracy had taken adversarial politics to the extreme.

We had the opportunity of meeting all three party leaders, and it was clear to me that there is bitter hatred between them and no sense of co-operation between the parties, which is a problem for a parliamentary democracy. It can work in a military dictatorship because it does not matter there, but the proper orders of priority are needed in a parliamentary democracy.

[Mrs Main]

My hon. Friend mentioned that we met three parties. Just in case anyone is puzzled, we met the Jatiya party and not the Jamaat-e-Islami party. I thought I would clear that up in case anyone was wondering which parties we are talking about.

[Bob Blackman]

I thank my hon. Friend for that reminder.

I also think there was complacency from the Government of the day. I remember their Chief Whip telling us, “Don’t worry, when we come to those elections the BNP will not boycott them because they fear losing their seats.” That Government believed that they could bend and twist things but everything would be all right and there would be an election. They expected not only that they would win that election, but that the BNP would bow and participate fully in it. Clearly, that view was misguided and wrong, and it has led directly to the current impasse.

Other hon. Members have referred to the violent history of Bangladesh—how it began and what has happened—and I do not intend to dwell on that because it has been well covered. Although Bangladesh has advanced economically, the bitter poverty that exists there must be addressed. We were able to see children from the slums attending a school, and the only clothes they had were those donated by British non-governmental organisations—

[Mrs Main]

It was the Hope school.

[Bob Blackman]

Indeed. It was a great thing to see those children being educated, to give them a chance of a better life, but the poverty in the whole of the country is extreme and must be addressed.

We also witnessed the problems caused by the risk of earthquakes, and I will never forget my hon. Friend being winched down the outside of a building in a rehearsal of what could happen in an earthquake. It took great courage for her to carry out that act—I am not sure she was aware of what was going to happen when she was put into the winch in the first place. That demonstrated to us that the Bangladesh Government are making preparations to deal with natural crises that could occur.

Bangladesh’s infrastructure, however, is horrendous. Dhaka’s traffic is probably the worst in the world, as the city is permanently gridlocked, and the condition of the roads is a disgrace. I cannot forget the 12-hour trip we took by rutted road from Sylhet to Dhaka—my body has not recovered since. The key point to make is that there is a great opportunity for investment in the country’s infrastructure, which will improve the ability of farmers and industrialists to produce the goods that will drive forward the country’s major economy.

DFID funding must be at centre of our thoughts, because it is where we can bring pressure to bear. We saw how DFID and Government funding has enabled cataracts to be treated in the outlying communities in a way that shamed our national health service. People who have the first signs of blindness as a result of cataracts can be spotted and then treated quickly for the princely sum of £27 per eye. That shows that when a good project is implemented it can be done properly and effectively, and is a demonstrable example of what can be done elsewhere.

However, DFID funding—to the tune of £5 million a year, I believe—has also gone towards community workshops to build community capability. Clearly that has not worked, because if it had the parliamentary elections and democracy in Bangladesh would have been far better. I hope that DFID will review that funding. When we returned 18 months ago, we questioned whether the money was being used in the best way possible, given that other projects could clearly be organised through NGOs to provide a better future for the people of Bangladesh. Those issues must be addressed and the funding needs to be reviewed, so that we bring pressure to bear on the Government in Bangladesh. We need to say, “If you do not make sure that the rights of minorities in the country are protected, we will have to reconsider whether that funding continues.” I must add a word of caution, because the money that goes to the NGOs is being spent extremely wisely, well and effectively; it is the money given to the Government to spend that is of great cause for concern, for not only our taxpayers, but the people of Bangladesh.

The current persecution of minorities, with the murders of Hindus, Christians, Sikhs and other minorities, is an absolute disgrace. We should condemn those murders outright. I hope that the Foreign Secretary will take up the issue, and make sure and demonstrate to the Government of Bangladesh that these things cannot be allowed to continue, in any shape or form. Any representations should be made through our Foreign Secretary and our embassy. The rights of those individuals are paramount and they must be allowed to continue to celebrate their religion, their ethnicity, their background and their history.

Finally, I think that there is a potential way forward for the future. I was a bit disturbed to receive an e-mail from the BNP about the situation in Bangladesh—I differentiate the BNP of Bangladesh from the pernicious, evil organisation that exists in this country, but I was not sure at the time which had sent me this e-mail. The leaders of two major political parties in Bangladesh hate each other and will not co-operate in any shape or form, but surely there is an opportunity for the Commonwealth and for the British Government to play a role in bringing together the disparate parties in Bangladesh and hammering out a deal. Such a deal would allow a caretaker Government to proceed; and it would allow us to move towards free and fair elections in the near, but not necessarily immediate, future, in order to allow the fledgling democracy of Bangladesh to flourish and to encourage and promote a Parliament in Bangladesh that mirrors how we operate in this country. That would entail free and frank exchanges, an opportunity for the Opposition the criticise the Government and the opportunity of saying, “That will be done in a fair way”. It would also entail the freedom of the press.

At the moment, press freedom is seriously threatened, because politicians and journalists disappear and nobody knows where they have gone, whether they have been arrested or whether they are still alive. A situation of fear breeds uncertainty and the worst-case scenario. I ask our Foreign Secretary and our Ministers to make representations to the Bangladeshi Government, asking them to come to their senses and reach a negotiated settlement, so that there can be a bright and prosperous future for the people of Bangladesh, because the young people there deserve it.

13:19

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

Along with others, I welcome this debate, and pay tribute to those who applied for it and to the all-party group on Bangladesh. I have a substantial, but not huge, Bangladeshi community in my constituency, and I have had close relationships with them and with the wider Bangladesh community for all the time I have been an MP.

I agree that we cannot change the tragedy of the history of Bangladesh, but it is worth recalling a couple of highly significant points in its history. It was originally created as East Pakistan during the tragedy of partition in 1947, and there was a tragic loss of so many lives in the wars that followed. To divide a country called Pakistan by 1,000 miles of another country was inevitably going to lead to an unstable relationship and problems. The many uprisings in what later became Bangladesh against Pakistani rule and the abuse of power by the authorities in East Pakistan led to the war in 1971, and eventually the success of the Mukti Bahini forces, which brought about the independence and recognition of Bangladesh.

It is true that disgraceful atrocities were committed during that war and that very large numbers of people died. It is also absolutely correct that those who commit atrocities should be brought to justice however long that takes. That surely is what we believe in when we hold international war crimes tribunals. In that sense, it is right that the Government of Bangladesh, led by Sheikh Hasina, set up the war crimes tribunal. My concern, and that of many others, was over the difficulties that international observers faced in observing those trials. Concerns were expressed about them and the execution of one very prominent person that followed the tribunal. Apparently, there was indifference by the Government of Bangladesh to universal concerns around the world about the use of the death penalty. Let me reiterate that I for one cannot accept the death penalty in any circumstances or on any occasion. The message has to be that justice and the judicial system must be seen to be independent. However, I endorse the point that Governments are entitled to operate a war crimes tribunal and use their judiciary to look at atrocities that have been committed. They should also ensure that all witnesses and legal representatives are secure and safe, that there are international observers and that international norms are followed.

The more recent history of Bangladesh is about the economic problems that the country faces. It has a large population and is one of the largest countries in the world. It faces enormous environmental challenges from water supply—either over-supply or under-supply of fresh water—and the problems of managing a river system that emanates from a neighbouring country and of rising sea levels and the dangerous floods that occur as a result.

Bangladesh also has an economic model that is difficult to sustain. It wants to become part of the world trade system by exporting garments, and I applaud that, but the problem is that with the beggar thy neighbour policies of the World Trade Organisation, the garment industry quickly moves itself from one low-wage economy to another, to another and so on. We now have the prospect of Chinese companies opening factories in Bangladesh because wages in China, while very low, are relatively high compared with those in Bangladesh. If Bangladesh then raises its wages to any decent level, the danger is that the garment industry will up sticks and go somewhere else. We have to think about the cheap clothes that we buy on the high streets of this country, and indeed of the United States and the rest of Europe, and the appalling working conditions that are behind all that.

[Mrs Main]

That was the focus of the all-party report. The few extra dollars or pence that would be needed to give a fair wage was not an issue to those who were involved in the garment industry. It was the whole infrastructure deficit that was more likely to drive businesses away. The problem is not in paying the workers in Bangladesh but in the Government not tackling the infrastructure deficit, which is making businesses question their presence there.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

To their credit, the Government of Bangladesh did increase the basic minimum wage, and that was welcome. None the less, I have attended meetings with the International Labour Organisation and trade unions from this country and Bangladesh about the abominable working conditions and safety of buildings, to which the hon. Lady rightly drew our attention, and the loss of life as a result of fire. We must bear all that in mind.

Before I conclude, let me turn to the violence that has been committed against human rights activists and religious and ethnic minorities, and to the numbers of people who have disappeared over the last few months and years. There can be no acceptance anywhere in the world that it is legitimate to persecute people. In the case of Bangladesh, the persecuted happen to be Christians or Hindus, but it would be no more correct for any other society to pursue and persecute people because they are Muslims. Surely the norm of the United Nations universal declaration of 1948 was that one accepts and respects religious and ethnic diversity in any and every society. I welcome the fact that Bangladesh’s constitution of 1971 is a secular one and guarantees rights of religious assembly and religious freedom, but the reality is that forces and gangs—in some cases funded elsewhere, and in some cases parastatal—have been killing and persecuting religious minorities, which is simply not acceptable. We must send out a strong message to that effect.

My final point is about how a democracy works. A democracy works if there is an open, free and fair electoral system. It also requires an independent judiciary, an independent media, security for those who are reporting, and the right of assembly and of free speech. All those things have been challenged in Bangladesh, and the violence and the deaths that we have seen are simply not acceptable.

When the election took place, the Awami League was inevitably going to win it, because the Opposition simply did not participate. I have read the Awami League report on the elections, and I can kind of see the point that it is making, but it hardly confers legitimacy on a Government when the Opposition do not take part, so we can hardly say that it was a democratic representation of the will of the people. Indeed, I have had it said to me by people in the London Bangladeshi community that the BNP might well have won the election had it taken part. I do not know whether that is the case, but we do know that the current impasse has to be broken in some way. There have to be talks with all the parties and there has to be freedom of movement of all political leaders and an acceptance that what has happened is really not a credible way for the Government of Bangladesh to continue to behave. It is not for us to say what should happen, but if there are to be legitimate talks with all political parties and representatives, there is likely to be a call for fresh elections.

Human rights, peace and democracy are at stake. Sadly, many of the very poorest people in Bangladesh live in disgraceful and appalling conditions. Working conditions are appalling and we look to a strong democracy in Bangladesh and support from the rest of the world to conquer that poverty and bring about a decent life for the people of Bangladesh. That is what the war of 1971 was about. It was not about the discrimination and the killing of people because of their views.

13:28

[Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)]

It is good to follow the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), who gave a good résumé of the history of Bangladesh. I am pleased to be able to take part in this debate, and I thank my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) and the hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) for securing this debate.

My interest in the country stems from the fact that I was an EU election observer in 2008, along with Dr Charles Tannock, Nirj Deva and Koenraad Dillen from the Netherlands. What was interesting, and perhaps depressing in many respects, was the great hope that came after those elections. Before them, there had been a huge amount of electoral fraud in the country. In 2008, we saw one of the best electoral rolls ever seen anywhere in the world. There were 80 million photographs of the individuals who were to cast their votes. I expected the electoral roll to contain rather fuzzy pictures from which one might not be able to recognise the voter, but I can assure the House that, although the photographs were quite small the people in them were recognisable.

That election was carried out in a pretty free and fair way, resulting in a landslide for the Awami League. In a way, that is what brought about many of the problems we see today. I find it depressing. In 2008, Sheikh Hasina was under house arrest under the then military Government. She was released to take part in the election, and there was talk about whether the military were going to back off from the government of Bangladesh. All those things came about and there was a transition to a form of democratic Government. As other hon. Members have said today, when we are in government we are not always delighted to get a lot of opposition from the Opposition, but that is how democracy works and how we are held to account. Once a party has 80% or 90% of the seats, there is no opposition. It becomes a dictatorship, albeit by a different route. That is what is fundamentally wrong with what is happening in Bangladesh today. It is ironic that Sheikh Hasina is treating her opponents in exactly the same way as she was treated.

I know that it is not always easy to find the Nelson Mandelas of this world in every country, but there comes a time when it would be lovely if someone could stand up and say, “Let’s learn from the past, let’s forgive and let’s have some reconciliation.” The trouble is that that is not happening. Members have clearly made the point today that Bangladesh needs a Government who can rule on behalf of all the people. We want Bangladesh to remain a secular country; we do not want to see the persecution and even perhaps the murder of Christians and Hindus. Those are things that we cannot accept.

It is very difficult for us, as I am sure the Minister is aware—particularly if we are seen in some ways to be the old colonial power—to say that we will tell people how to run their country and how to run a democracy. We have had a form of democracy for 500 or 600 years —or even, one might argue, for nearly 1,000 years, although that is not to say that I think that William the Conqueror was particularly democratic. It has taken us a long time to get to where we are and some might argue that our democracy is not entirely perfect even now, but younger countries with huge divisions find it more difficult to have a democracy. However difficult it is for us to intervene, we can say that we give a great deal of money to help Bangladesh and we must consider how the money given to the Government is spent. We expect the Government of that country to show some recognition of human rights, recognition of a free press and respect for opposition. The Minister has the wisdom of Solomon and will, I am sure, be able to provide all the ideas we need, but we need to put the pressure on.

We must also remember, as other Members have said, that the people of Bangladesh are very hard working. They are very poor yet they will work hard to bring themselves out of poverty. We must help them by targeting the areas where we want the Government to change rather than targeting the people. That is always difficult.

Bangladesh is almost one huge river valley, so the soil is very fertile but also prone to flooding. Building anywhere is difficult. My hon. Friend the Member for St Albans made the point that many of the buildings are not structurally sound because of what they have been built on and how they have been built.

Should we as individuals boycott clothing made in Bangladesh? I do not believe that we should, because it makes the situation worse, but we need some checks and balances on where those clothes have come from, what the factories are like, how the workers are treated, how they are paid and what sort of conditions they are in. We are right to debate that in the House.

I agree with the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) that it is not our duty in this House to tell Bangladesh when the next election should be, but we should not ignore the situation. We cannot ignore a Government who were not elected in a free and fair way in the recent elections. If fewer than half the seats are being contested, that is no way to run any form of democracy, and if vengeance is then to be taken on political opponents, that is no way to run a country. Let us put the pressure on where we can and say to Bangladesh that it has to change its ways and go back to the ballot box. The timing is for Bangladesh to decide, but we and the international community must add to the pressure.

I am delighted to have been able to make this speech although I am disappointed that the great hope of 2009, with the landslide and Sheikh Hasina coming into power, has not delivered what we want for Bangladesh. We should not walk away from Bangladesh now, however, as we have to support it through these difficult times. Ultimately, the country has a bright future.

13:37

[Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am extremely grateful for the opportunity to speak in this vital debate and I congratulate the hon. Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) and my hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) on securing it.

It is right that we in this country, in all humility but with an active sense of participation, should work for the peace, stability, good governance and prosperity of the people of Bangladesh, not just because of the great warmth felt towards the Bangladeshi community living in this country but because Bangladesh has a fantastic series of opportunities to succeed in the forthcoming years. If we get the governance of Bangladesh right, the generation that is growing up there now could see its nation pushing towards becoming a middle-income country and tackling many of the issues that will arise as a result of climate change.

I am reminded today that the transition to a democratic system is not just about how people vote but about all sorts of other forms of civic engagement and processes. Becoming a democratic country does not just require majority rule; it also requires minority rights. It requires a political system that emerges, respects differences and tolerates alternative opinions. At its heart, it should require people to come together in a way that does not ignore difference but says that there is a future available to a country that would not be birthed without people coming together to achieve those aims.

Today, our thoughts are dominated by the concerns about the 10th general election, held on 5 January. The lack of widespread support for it from the world community and from the parties that would have participated in that election is troubling, and rightly so. I think that it was right for the US and the EU not to send observers, which would have lent legitimacy to a process that has clearly been discredited. Indeed, only four international observers participated in the election.

The tension between the Awami League and the BNP led to around half the seats going uncontested. Of course, it is a feature and not a bug of the Bangladeshi political system that the first-past-the-post system further accentuates the disconnect between the proportion of people voting for one party and the number of seats it wins. It has led to a pendulum effect, with power going backwards and forwards between the parties.

I associate myself with the sentiment expressed by the hon. Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) when he warned against falling into the trap of thinking that it is six of one and half a dozen of another, because it is not about choosing sides. Fundamentally, it is about saying that political leaders have a responsibility, when given the opportunity, to set the conditions. It is not just about what benefits us in our parties; it is about the long-term prosperity of a nation.

Setting the right tone is incredibly important. That is something we need to be aware of in this House, which is why I hope that today’s debate will be welcomed by all those with a genuine interest in the future of the Bangladeshi people. We offer it in a spirit of humility, acknowledging that in no country are democratic processes perfect—we are all trying to improve things. However, where attention can be drawn to human rights abuses, where, as hon. Members have said today, concerns point towards a system in which injustice can be institutionalised, and where the abuse of power can lead to large groups of people feeling completely frozen out of the democratic process, it is right to point that out and condemn the situation that allows it to come about.

It has been asked today whether it was right to press on with the election or whether it would have been better to have an interim Administration until such time as full and free democratic elections could be held. I think that it was right that, as a nation, we chose to put out a series of statements making it clear that we did not believe that the election was free and fair, but surely the time ahead will be vital.

Today’s debate is taking place in the Parliament of a country that has strong links with the Bangladeshi nation, not least through the diaspora in our constituencies and communities. If we ever needed a statement on the incredible strides that that young nation—young demographically and young given its date of birth—can make, we need only look to the entrepreneurial spirit of the many people of Bangladeshi origin in our nation. They are a fantastic group of people and a fantastic work force. They are working incredibly hard, delivering the kind of growth that Bangladesh will need to see in the coming years to tackle many of its problems.

Those people in our communities will rightly say that for the world community to look on Bangladesh as though it should not have to live up to our expectations of democratic nations is deeply offensive to its people. Sometimes we view parts of the world as though they should not step up to what they could be—true participants in the world community, with processes and systems that reflect their leadership role.

Our partnership with Bangladesh involves not only business links, but international aid, development and support. I believe that there is a strong story to tell about our involvement, but there are also strong expectations. Bangladesh is one of the top five nations that we support through DFID. There are a number of figures available, but roughly £250 million of UK taxpayers’ money is spent in Bangladesh, and around 10% of that goes to big programmes aimed at strengthening political participation and safety and justice. I for one would never argue that we should go around the world with a big stick, trying to increase leverage in places where that is inappropriate, but surely it must be right, in the light of recent deeply concerning events, for DFID to review not only the viability of those programmes, but their effectiveness.

We provide direct funding for the Bangladeshi Government, and the NGOs and multilateral agencies are, by and large, very successful in their much-needed work, and in strengthening governance and participation in the political process and civic society. However, we must ask how we can make those programmes more effective to ensure that the leverage that is rightly being exercised by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is backed up with participative support from DFID.

Finally, I want to say a few words about international trade links with Bangladesh. The all-party group’s report has rightly been widely welcomed by Members on both sides of the House for its instructive message. I think that we have a fantastic trade relationship. We must acknowledge that there is an economy coming through—the garment industry and other industries—that benefits us as well as them, and that is vital. That is why I believe that it was so short-sighted for the Government to defund the work being done by the International Labour Organisation, the body that ensures decent standards and working practices in those places. I welcome DFID’s approach in acknowledging that the ILO was an important participant in the process of raising standards in Bangladesh and urge it to increase the amount of money once again going into the ILO’s work.

Our relationships with Bangladesh are obviously political. They cross diaspora communities. They come from a deep-rooted sense of values and a shared history. But the future of those relationships relies upon us treating Bangladesh as a country that can step up to the requirements of being a modern world economy. Through our participation and all the ways we can exercise our agency here in the UK, we should work with a clear sense that majority rule, minority rights and true shared decision making will create the only future path for the people of Bangladesh. In that light, I hope that this debate will go a long way towards pointing out the future direction for the people of that fantastic country.

13:47

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

I congratulate all Members who have taken part in the debate on their well-informed contributions, many of which result from personal visits to Bangladesh. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) and my hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk)—he has made his apologies for having to leave the debate early—for stepping in at short notice to secure the debate, which is timely, given that the elections took place on 5 January.

I also want to say briefly that I am sure that we are all mindful of the reason why the debate on child neglect that had been scheduled for today was cancelled. My thoughts are with the family, friends and many colleagues of Paul Goggins who are paying their final respects to him today.

As several hon. Members have said, Bangladesh has long been a valued partner of the UK. Obviously it is a young country, but our historical links with the region and its people go back long before its formation. We also have a sizeable diaspora community in the UK. Indeed, Bristol has the pleasure of having not only its first Muslim lord mayor, but its first lord mayor of Bangladeshi origin, Councillor Faruk Choudhury, who has made a real impact as a role model for younger people in the community.

As I said, the elections were held on 5 January. We have heard already about the widespread concern that has been expressed by the international community and the condemnation of shocking acts of violence and intimidation. I want to focus my remarks mostly on the elections, given that they are so recent. As we have heard, more than half the 300 seats were uncontested. Some candidates from other parties, I understand, tried to withdraw their names from the ballot paper. Some from smaller parties were elected, but more than 100 candidates from the ruling Awami League were elected unopposed, and 48 million registered voters out of 92 million could not vote. Indeed, it is reported that people could vote in just two of the 20 constituencies in Dhaka, so it is no surprise that the turnout was disappointingly low. The Government’s official turnout figure was 39% to 40%, but that has been queried, given that there was no turnout at all in many parts of the country because the seats were uncontested.

Furthermore, election day and the weeks preceding it saw deplorable acts of violence. There were arson attacks on polling stations, including more than 120 schools. There were reports that an election officer was beaten to death on polling day, and that 440 polling stations closed early owing to security concerns. Human Rights Watch reported that 120 people lost their lives in pre-election violence, and at least 18 people died on election day. Media reports have said that many were shot by police.

The reasons for the violence and the failure of the elections to proceed as we would have hoped are varied and complex. The Bangladesh Nationalist party, along with several of the smaller parties, decided to boycott the election in protest against the Government’s decision not to allow a neutral caretaker Government to take charge in the run-up to the elections. As we heard from the hon. Member for St Albans and others, such a practice had been in place since the 1996 elections. Meanwhile, there was a court order preventing the Jamaat-e-Islami party from participating. There were also reports that some candidates tried to withdraw, but were prevented from doing so, and that party representatives were arrested or forced to leave Bangladesh. After the BNP’s leader called for a march for democracy in late December, hundreds of opposition supporters were arrested, and demonstrators were prevented from reaching Dhaka. There were reports of arbitrary arrests and the indiscriminate use of force. Ms Zia was, in effect, placed under house arrest, with security forces preventing her from leaving her home. Those are all deeply troubling human rights violations.

We believe that the European Union, the United States, the Commonwealth and others were right not to send election observers, given concerns about the election arrangements, and the associated violence and intimidation. We support the remarks by the EU High Representative, Cathy Ashton, condemning the violence and highlighting the concern that some of the attacks targeted women and children, and religious and ethnic groups. Many of our international partners support her conclusion that conditions were not met for transparent, inclusive and credible elections.

It is hoped that the dialogue everyone—particularly the UK, the EU, the UN and the Commonwealth—is calling for will enable all people in Bangladesh to participate in transparent and credible elections in the future. We have heard calls today for fresh elections, with differing views about whether they should take place within the next few months, or whether more time is needed to put the appropriate mechanisms in place. I know that it is early days, but I would be keen to hear from the Minister what discussions the Government have had with the parties in Bangladesh and what role we could play in ensuring that elections that are satisfactory to the majority of the people in Bangladesh happen in the near future, no matter what the outcome.

The hon. Member for St Albans talked about the troubled history of elections in Bangladesh. She also discussed the persecution of religious minorities, which is a matter of great concern to hon. Members—it has been raised on a number of occasions, and it is important that it is flagged up. She talked about the all-party group’s visit to Bangladesh last September, which sounds very successful. Members of Parliament get criticised quite a lot for going on such overseas visits, but Members who took part in that visit feel that they are now informed about the situation so that they can take part in this debate. There is no substitute for being on the ground in a country and witnessing at first hand what is happening there.

The hon. Lady spoke about the garment industry, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn). The role of consumer power in flagging up these issues is something that we have not really mobilised. There are brilliant campaigns such as Labour Behind the Label, a Bristol-based organisation, and groups such as War on Want have campaigned on the matter in the past. We need to do more to flag up the ethics of our high street and what we are actually buying.

[Mrs Main]

I thank the hon. Lady for her favourable comments. The report by the all-party group, which we have handed to DFID—we hope for a response—explores many suggestions, such as kite marks. We would love to have a response from the Minister to some of them.

[Kerry McCarthy]

Given that the report has been submitted to DFID, it would not be my place to respond on its behalf, but my colleagues in the shadow DFID team, my hon. Friends the Members for Wirral South (Alison McGovern) and for Luton South (Gavin Shuker), are doing a lot of work on how we can make the high street more ethical. I am sure that we can work on that on a cross-party basis and with the support of those such as the all-party group.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali) spoke from her unique perspective as the sole Member of the House of Bangladeshi origin—indeed, she was born in the country. She spoke eloquently about the frustration that is felt by members of the community over here. No matter which political party they may be aligned with or which party they may want to win the election, they all have a desire to see political stability and order restored in Bangladesh, not least because the current situation is putting at risk the economic investment that is lifting the country out of poverty. She made a powerful plea for people in power to put their political differences behind them in the country’s interests and said that the country’s politics is holding it back. My hon. Friend the Member for Rochdale echoed those sentiments, as did the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish).

I thought at one point that the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) was after a free meal in one of the curry houses in his constituency. I hope that he name-checked all of them and did not leave anyone out or he will be given a cold welcome next time he visits. He talked about the impact of aid and the contribution made by the diaspora, as did the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman).

My hon. Friend the Member for Luton South, who speaks as someone with not just a significant Bangladeshi diaspora in his community, but in his role as a shadow DFID spokesman, talked about the Department. The last thing we want to do is to abandon a country just because the democratic process is not perfect, but we need to see how FCO and DFID funding, and the work taking place in the country, can be pulled together so that it is about supporting better political engagement and strengthening governance to ensure that aid money for poverty projects is well delivered, going into the right hands and benefiting the people. The hon. Member for Bedford (Richard Fuller) was entirely right to raise concerns about extra-judicial killings and the Rapid Action Battalion, about which I was talking to somebody only the other day.

Let me turn to the human rights situation. Last year, as a result of political violence, Bangladesh was added to the FCO’s human rights report as a case study. It is estimated that 500 Bangladeshis were killed in political violence in 2013, with injury caused to thousands of others, predominantly associated with the international crimes tribunal’s investigations into the 1971 war. I have seen harrowing reports. Human Rights Watch has documented evidence that the security forces were responsible for some of the deaths during the protests. It is imperative that those responsible are held to account. The incidents provided further evidence of the need to promote freedom of expression and association in Bangladesh. People in Bangladesh and some external observers have argued that the tribunal process is flawed, and there are troubling reports that at least one witness has been attacked and killed.

The verdicts have led to the death penalty. As my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North said, most of us are united across this House in condemning the use of capital punishment in all cases. I know that that is not a unanimous view, but I think I am right in saying that it is probably a majority view. Labour Members regard the death penalty as inhumane. As in the case of the execution of Abdul Quader Molla of the Jamaat-e-Islami party last month, it serves only to heighten tensions and spark further violence. The Government therefore have our full support in calling on Bangladesh to implement a moratorium on the use of the death penalty and to uphold the international covenant on civil and political rights. It is important, especially now that we are members of the Human Rights Council, that the abolition of the death penalty continues to be raised at the council and with our Commonwealth partners.

As has already been mentioned, the people of Bangladesh had our deepest sympathies following the Rana Plaza factory disaster last April, in which 1,100 people lost their lives and 2,500 were injured. We have discussed the protection of ILO standards within the garment industry and the hidden human costs associated with the ability to buy high street products in the UK at such a low price. I commend the TUC, among others, for its work with retailers to secure support for an accord to fund an independent and much-needed health and safety inspection body for Bangladeshi factories.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for pointing out the role of the TUC. Will she also commend War on Want for its support for the garment workers and its practical support for helping union organisation in Bangladesh which, at the end of the day, is the best way to bring about health and safety in the workplace?

[Kerry McCarthy]

I agree entirely. I gave War on Want a little name check earlier, along with Labour Behind the Label, which also does excellent work. My hon. Friend has pointed out that China is now moving production to Bangladesh because it is even cheaper to produce garments there than in China. How do we tackle the issues involved? How do we raise terms and conditions, wages and living standards in countries such as Bangladesh in such a way that production is not displaced to another country that will undercut it even further? The only way that can be achieved is by implementing ILO standards universally so that there is not a race to the bottom and everything is about quality and maintaining good standards across the board.

The UK was a founder member of the ILO and, given the Government’s professed commitment to business and human rights—they published their action plan in September—it is important that the UK does more to work with the international community and British businesses to promote worker safety and employee rights with our partners overseas. Our immediate focus, however, must be on how we can secure peaceful and open elections in Bangladesh so that the people can express their political will in a democratic ballot. I am keen to hear the Minister’s assessment of the 5 January elections, of the role he sees the international community playing in trying to address some of the issues that arose from them—not just the violence, but the fact that many people in Bangladesh feel that democracy was not served—and of what we can do to ensure that democracy is better served in the future.

14:02

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

I pay tribute to all those who have contributed to the debate: my hon. Friends the Members for St Albans (Mrs Main), for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), for Bedford (Richard Fuller), for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) and for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish), and the hon. Members for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali), for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk), for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick), for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn), for Luton South (Gavin Shuker) and for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy).

Listening to the speeches of Members from different political parties, I have been struck that they share a common commitment to and a passion—I do not think that is too strong a word—for the well-being, future prosperity and stable democratic development of Bangladesh. Coupled with that sense of commitment, we heard in a number of speeches a sense of frustration, impatience and almost anger at times at how difficult it has been to make such progress, and especially at the events of the recent parliamentary election.

The Government believe that it is peaceful and credible elections expressing the genuine will of the voters that are the true mark of a mature and functioning democracy. The facts are that on Sunday 5 January, parliamentary elections were held in Bangladesh in accordance with the constitution, as a number of hon. Members have said, but regrettably they took place without the opposition 18-party alliance, for the reasons that have been debated extensively. As a consequence, we were left with a situation in which just over half the seats were uncontested, which denied more than 46 million out of 92 million voters any say at the ballot box, and even in the contested elections turnout was low. That is an unsatisfactory and deeply disappointing outcome.

The day after the elections, 6 January, my right hon. and noble Friend Baroness Warsi issued a public statement making those points and condemning the acts of intimidation and unlawful political violence. It has been reported that no fewer than 500 people lost their lives because of political violence during 2013. Twenty-one deaths were reported on polling day and more than 100 polling centres, many of them schools in very poor rural areas, were burned down. The Government are shocked and saddened by the high number of deaths and we urge all Bangladeshi political parties to take responsibility for the situation and to look actively for solutions through dialogue, not through political harassment and violence.

All of Bangladesh’s political parties share a clear and unequivocal responsibility to work together to strengthen democratic accountability as an urgent priority and to build the willingness and capacity for Bangladesh to hold fully participatory parliamentary elections without the fear of intimidation or reprisals. I am pleased that the Bangladesh Nationalist party has announced a suspension of its blockade programme and that Begum Zia has publicly condemned violence, including attacks on minorities. That is a positive step, although we would welcome further bold moves by both political parties that lead to dialogue between them. Above all, it is important that the political parties put the interests of the Bangladeshi people first.

I have been asked by a number of hon. Members, particularly my hon. Friend the Member for Cheltenham and the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse, about action since the elections. The Bangladeshi Government were only sworn in on 12 January and as yet no Foreign Minister has been announced. I will preface my comments on this issue by saying that we think that representations are not always best made through a megaphone in public, but I assure the House that our views on the electoral process and the challenges facing Bangladesh and its political leaders are well known by both the Government and the opposition parties and that we continue, at all appropriate levels, to maintain contact. Our commitment to that intensive dialogue will continue. We also keep in close touch with our partners in the United States, Brussels and national capitals around the world.

Obviously it is for Bangladesh to decide to invite international observers, who have an important role to play in assessing the inclusiveness and fairness of elections. It is also essential, however, that the political conditions exist for observers to go about their work in safety and with full access to all stages of the electoral process. That was not possible this time in Bangladesh, but I hope very much that it will be the next time it holds elections.

My hon. Friends the Members for St Albans and for Bedford and the hon. Member for Islington North asked about disappearances and other reported and alleged human rights abuses. At Bangladesh’s universal periodic review at the United Nations Human Rights Council in April 2013, the United Kingdom called for a thorough and impartial investigation into enforced disappearances. We also argued that if credible evidence emerged, there should be prosecutions for all alleged abuses of human rights. That continues to be our position. We believe that any allegation of an abuse of human rights should be properly and impartially investigated, and that where there is credible and verifiable evidence against people, they should be held to account, through due judicial process, for those actions.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

I thank the Minister for making that point. Does he know when the universal periodic review response is due from Bangladesh and whether the Bangladesh Government have agreed to co-operate with the UPR based on the representations made by the UK and other Governments?

[Mr Lidington]

I cannot answer the hon. Gentleman now, but I will write to him on those details.

My hon. Friend the Member for St Albans was absolutely right to warn that political instability and feuding in Bangladesh will harm the country’s prospects of attracting the investment that its people so desperately need. I welcome her emphasis on the garment sector and the role of women in the economy. I will certainly draw to the attention of my right hon. and hon. Friends at the Department for International Development her wish for a formal response to the all-party group report. The Government regard the garment sector as vital for poverty reduction and for the economic empowerment of women. Through our aid programme, we provide just under £5 million to the International Labour Organisation to enhance worker safety in the ready-made garment sector in Bangladesh. I am sure that my right hon. and hon. Friends at DFID will keep under review other opportunities for providing similar help through the appropriate agencies.

Several questions were asked about the United Kingdom’s aid programme and the political situation in Bangladesh. Of course, aid is not the only way in which this country helps Bangladesh and tries to make it possible for its people to prosper. We have a flourishing and growing commercial relationship. The United Kingdom is one of the largest investors in Bangladesh, with about £2 billion provided in investment projects to date, and with 100 UK firms operating successfully right across Bangladesh. Our bilateral trade in goods doubled between 2006 and 2011, and we are now the third largest destination for exports from Bangladesh, with garments and seafood accounting for the bulk of total sales.

The aid relationship is, however, very important as well. The United Kingdom is the largest donor of bilateral grant aid to Bangladesh. It will amount to £275 million in the 2013-14 financial year. The aid programme is focused above all on the relief of the chronic and desperate poverty of far too many millions of people in Bangladesh, as well as on programmes to improve the quality of drinking water and sanitation, and to help Bangladesh to adapt to the risks posed by climate change. I say to the hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow that we estimate that about 15 million people in Bangladesh have been helped directly by UK aid funding for extending flood early-warning systems.

[Official Report, 22 January 2014, Vol. 574, c. 1-2MC.]Most United Kingdom aid is channelled through non-governmental organisations and none is paid directly to the Bangladesh Government. It is true that about a third of our total aid programme ultimately goes to the Bangladesh Government’s health and education systems because, as we all know, help with primary health care and education are key to promoting the economic development and sustainable growth of a developing country. However, that one-third share is channelled via reputable NGOs, such as the United Nations, the World Bank and the Asian Development Bank, and money is paid out by our Government only once we have been given clear, accountable evidence that a project or programme in the education or health sector has been delivered. That aspect of our aid is delivered on a reimbursement basis.

Roughly 12.5% of United Kingdom aid goes to matters related to governance, although I again stress that it does not go directly to the Bangladesh Government or any individual political party. That element of our aid programme includes measures to enhance the taxpayer base in Bangladesh, which indirectly contributes to anti-corruption work in that country. The number of registered taxpayers has risen by 480,000, in part as a result of that element of the UK aid programme, and improving the technical side of the electoral system—the quality of the electoral register—is another aspect of it.

As some Members have urged, the Government, through the Department for International Development, will always keep their aid programme under review. I am sure that my colleagues in DFID have heard the questions posed about whether we need to review with particular rigour some parts of the Government’s spending in Bangladesh. I know that the commitment to a review is real, but I emphasise that I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford, who said that we must not let our dissatisfaction with the political situation in Bangladesh lead us to decide to restrict aid in ways that penalise some of the poorest people on the planet, who are not responsible for decisions taken by Bangladesh’s party political leaders.

Bangladesh is an important partner of the United Kingdom, not least through the Commonwealth and our links to the British Bangladeshi community that contributes so much to our society. We continue to support the people of Bangladesh in their aspirations for a more stable, prosperous and democratic future. We urge all political leaders and parties in Bangladesh to shoulder their responsibilities to bring that about, and to commit themselves to a peaceful political process through constructive dialogue.

14:18

[Mrs Main]

I thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting this debate at such short notice. The slot became available because of the unfortunate circumstances of the death of Mr Paul Goggins.

Although they are participating at short notice, many hon. Members and colleagues from the all-party group have spoken with great knowledge and depth. If the debate shows the world outside this Chamber anything, it is the House of Commons at its best. We are completely at one in our disappointment at Bangladesh’s situation and in our hope that some solution and way forward can be found even at this late stage.

The reason the interim period lasted for two years, despite that being far longer than is allowed for under the constitution, was that the 2006 to 2008 interim Government had to fix so many problems that had been left unfixed. For example, a credible voter list was needed, because millions had been left disfranchised. As my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Neil Parish) said, when such a voter list was brought in, hopes were high that the country would be led by a party with a true democratic mandate, because so many people were enfranchised who had previously been left off a voter list that could in no way be considered free of corruption.

Given the hopes expressed at the 2008 election, which the Awami League won with a landslide vote and a true democratic mandate, it is a shame that in such a short time Bangladesh should find itself in its current position. So many colleagues who care so much about the country and who have spoken so knowledgeably—indeed, some have a large Bangladeshi diaspora in their constituencies—are united across the House and across parties in saying that the country must do better.

I concur with the shadow Minister that the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) will probably have curry for life. I am surprised that the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) did not break into the mother tongue of Bangladesh that he seems to speak so well, albeit with something of an accent. His wife runs the Sreepur street project, to which he referred, admirably. She has presented the good work that that charity does to the APPG.

To the people who ask what APPGs do, I say that this debate shows what they do at their best. They take an interest in a niche subject and unite colleagues in the House across party lines. I am truly grateful that this debate has been participated in so fully. I am only sorry that the hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) could not take the limelight, as he was going to do, because of pressing engagements that meant he could not stay until the end. He would have done a brilliant job of opening and closing the debate, but I have had to fulfil that role. I am sorry if I have coughed throughout, but I have watched all of it.

I honestly hope that those who are watching this debate—some of whom are very close to us—have taken on board our earnest hope that they will go back and say, “Put your differences aside.” The two-lady solution that was being talked about in 2006 would have been a disaster because there can be no way to run a country through violence. We want Bangladesh’s political leaders to keep their arguments and debates within their Chamber, and to allow their electorate to come forward freely with a strong voice and say who they would like to represent them. The people should then be able to hold them to account. That is what this House does. We hold the Government of the day to account. Every Government who are in power must feel that they have to deal with the issues and that they cannot just keep looking back and blaming the Opposition, saying, “It all happened then.” [Interruption.] That goes right the way back to 1971. Let us end on that note of consensus—don’t spoil it. We can look back at the history, but if people focus only on that and lose sight of the bigger picture, to which we have all alluded, it will be a tragedy for Bangladesh.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered the current situation in Bangladesh.

Nuisance Calls

Thursday 16th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Relevant document: Fourth Report from the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, Nuisance Calls, HC 636.]

14:22

[Mike Crockart (Edinburgh West) (LD)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered nuisance calls.

I thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting time for this important debate. Many Members who would like to have been here for this debate are unable to be with us for various reasons, including constituency commitments, debates in Westminster Hall and, sadly, the funeral of our friend, Paul Goggins. Our thoughts are with the friends and family of that departed Member.

I would like to use this opportunity to say that my thoughts are with the family of a three-year-old in my constituency who went missing from his home overnight last night. We all fervently hope for Mikaeel Kular’s safe return as soon as is possible.

It has been a long and hard road to get to this point. When I started my campaign 18 months ago, I did not for the life of me think that it would grow to the size that it now is. I must thank some people and institutions for their help. I thank The Sunday Post and Which? for their support and their campaigns. They have both launched petitions over the past 18 months. There are now more than 130,000 signatures from members of the public urging action on this issue.

In response to that, I set up the all-party parliamentary group on nuisance calls in July last year to look into the unsolicited marketing industry and the issue of nuisance calls in particular. It is made up of Members of all parties and I especially thank the hon. Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) for his support in co-chairing and running the group. Unfortunately, he cannot be present today because of a constituency commitment. The all-party parliamentary group has completed an inquiry and a report, which I will rely on for many of my remarks.

I will set the scene by defining some of the concepts that we will discuss, because this is a complex area. Nuisance means different things to different people. The term “nuisance call” is used to capture a wide range of types of calls from silent calls to live marketing calls and from harassment to financial scams. By definition, nuisance calls are a problem for consumers. They interrupt family meal times or are received wearily after a hard day’s work. They often demand that elderly or vulnerable people answer the phone when it is an effort to do so. For some people they are a mere irritation, but for others they cause significant harm or distress, and they can even make people feel intimidated when answering their phone. Not all nuisance calls are illegal. Consumers sometimes term legitimate contact a nuisance, for example if a call comes at an awkward time of the day. Nuisance is often in the eye of the beholder.

For the purposes of this debate, we will focus on marketing calls, whether silent or live and whether over a fixed line or a mobile, that are made without the consumer’s consent. We will also consider the problem of nuisance spam texts, although the consent mechanism differs. Marketing calls operate on an opt-out basis. Until a person says explicitly that they do not wish to receive marketing calls, companies that are engaged in direct marketing are able legally to contact them by telephone. In contrast, marketing texts operate on an opt-in basis. They can be sent legally only if a consumer states that they are happy to receive them.

The definitions of terms such as live marketing calls and marketing text messages follow those that are used by the main regulators, which are Ofcom and the Information Commissioner’s Office. The definitions focus on the type of call and do not cover situations in which, although the individual call may be legal, the pattern, frequency or time of the call should classify it as a nuisance.

[Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman wholeheartedly on securing this debate and on the campaign that he has been running. Does he accept that the fundamental problem that our constituents complain to us about is that there are frequently multiple calls and that calls are often made at night time? I have had constituents complaining of more than 15 calls in a day and dozens of constituents have complained that people call them at 1, 2 or 3 o’clock in the morning, which is particularly alarming to members of the public.

[Mike Crockart]

My right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), who is unable to be here, outlined a very worrying set of circumstances to me, which may well have affected the hon. Gentleman’s constituents. In the last week, a large number of automated calls have been made at those sorts of times in the morning, starting with the phrase, “The Government want you to know that—”. The time at which the calls are made indicate that it will almost inevitably be bad news. Those calls can be very worrying and cause immense distress.

Unfortunately, the regulatory framework for nuisance calls is complex. That is partly because it has emerged through historical accident, rather than by design. Ofcom regulates silent and abandoned calls. The regulations state that when using automatic dialler equipment, which must have been used in the cases that I have just outlined, no more than 3% of answered call attempts should be abandoned because no live agent is available at the call centre. That means that if 1 million calls are made, 30,000 nuisance calls can be made legally.

The Information Commissioner’s Office is responsible for enforcing data protection regulations, including the Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003, which I will call PECR from now on. Under PECR, the Information Commissioner’s Office is responsible for enforcement of live calls, which includes recorded calls and spam texts.

Alongside the two main regulators, a number of other organisations, with or without regulatory powers, have an interest. Claims management companies, which are responsible for the vast share of calls, are regulated by the claims management regulator. The Financial Conduct Authority will shortly regulate debt management and payday lending companies. The National Fraud Authority and the police have a role to play when nuisance calls pertain to fraud, scams or other forms of illegal activity. PhonepayPlus regulates premium rate phone numbers and services in the UK. That is by no means a full list.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

I endorse the hon. Gentleman’s comments about the missing three-year-old boy from his constituency, on the border of mine in Edinburgh. Like him, I hope that he is soon found safe and brought back to his home.

Is not one problem that nuisance calls that purport to come from outside the UK, which by definition are particularly difficult to deal with? Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we must at least try to deal with that aspect of the problem, which people are unsurprisingly concerned about?

[Mike Crockart]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and there are two issues raised. Of course, the vast majority of calls coming from outside the UK are made on behalf of companies operating within the UK, so they should be covered by the regulators. The difficulty is that there are all sorts of problems identifying where those calls have come from and getting the calling line identity to ensure that they can be traced. I hope that the Minister will have something to say later about how he is looking to deal with the various difficulties.

The complexity of the regulation leads to a lack of focus and, therefore, to a lack of action. I welcome the Minister’s involvement, however, which has helped to deal with the first. We will see shortly whether it is helping to deal with the second, as well.

In the all-party group’s inquiry, we made a number of attempts to come to a final assessment of the scale of the problem, but the vast array of inconsistent data makes that difficult. The regulators receive about 6,000 complaints a month about nuisance calls. Ofcom reports that it receives about 3,000 relating to silent calls, and since setting up its online reporting tool in March 2012, the Information Commissioner’s Office has received about 240,000 complaints about unsolicited calls and texts. There is no evidence that the problem is decreasing. The ICO, Ofcom and the Telephone Preference Service all report an overall growth in the number of complaints over the past three years, but complaints data alone fail to tell us the full story. As part of its “Calling Time” campaign, Which? set up a web portal to direct consumer complaints to the relevant regulator.

[Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)]

The hon. Gentleman may recall that when BT gave evidence to the all-party group, it said that its complaints and nuisance calls line received some 65,000 calls a month—from memory, I think that was the figure. If so many calls are coming in but so few are going to the regulator, that suggests that there is a serious problem and that there is no confidence that the regulator will do much about them.

[Mike Crockart]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point, although I am not sure whether the failure to complain results just from a lack of confidence. Part of it may well be a lack of knowledge and a lack of willingness to commit time to go through the process of making a complaint. However, I was about to make the point that he raises.

Data from the portal that Which? set up showed that only about half the people who used it went on to make a full complaint to the regulators. As the hon. Gentleman says, the number of nuisance calls received far exceeds the number of official complaints. BT estimates that its nuisance call bureau receives about 50,000 calls a month— that is the figure I have, which is bad enough. There are also nuisance texts, and in the evidence that the all-party group received, the technology company Pinesoft estimated that about 8.7 million are sent every day.

Ofcom’s omnibus survey is generally considered to produce the most accurate estimate of the number of nuisance calls that people receive, because it involves people making a diary of the calls that they receive for a certain period. It has resulted in an estimate that consumers who experience unwanted calls receive an average of about two a week, with four out of five participants receiving at least one nuisance call during the four-week research period. About a quarter of people recalled receiving more than 10 calls in a four-week period. However one calculates it, the annual number of unwanted calls is almost certainly more than 1 billion.

Another recent piece of research was commissioned by StepChange, a debt charity, and conducted by YouGov. It found that more than 3.2 million British adults who had received an unsolicited marketing call or text had been left afraid to answer the phone as a result of those communications.

[Guy Opperman]

On that point about the fear factor, the result is that the telephone is taken out of the use of people who would otherwise regard it as a normal service in their home. It is manifestly clear on any interpretation that such texts and calls are increasing, and that the Government need to do more to give the regulator and others teeth, so that we can stop them.

[Mike Crockart]

Absolutely. That is a good point, and that fear is concentrated among certain groups, such as the elderly, who are at home during the day more, and those who, as StepChange found, are hounded by companies encouraging them to take out payday loans and so on. Just over 26.3 million British adults have been offered high-interest credit such as payday loans via unsolicited marketing calls or messages, and 83% of British adults feel that consumers need greater protection from them.

As I said, people who get a high number of nuisance calls tend to be elderly, and a recent trial of call-blocking technology by trading standards in Angus, in Scotland, found that about 40% of phone calls received by elderly and vulnerable residents were nuisance calls. It also found that older people were the victims of 40% of all nuisance calls. As I said, that is partly because of the timing of nuisance calls, with 78% being made between 8 am and 6 pm, when most people are at work. The trial found that without call-blocking technology, participants were extremely concerned about scams, the risk of a fall when answering the phone, feeling helpless to stop calls and feeling intimidated by callers. Once call-blocking technology was installed, all those concerns were reduced considerably.

I decided to carry out a trial in my constituency by installing call-blocking technology in the homes of two constituents who were being particularly bothered by nuisance calls. The results were quite shocking and bore out what has been found elsewhere. Mrs Moffat is a constituent who is deaf and has to use a textphone, and her husband suffers from early dementia. Since 27 August, 65% of her incoming calls have been nuisance calls. Since 11 September another constituent, Mrs Manchester, has received 212 calls, a third of which have been nuisance calls. Interestingly, the figure is down from 43% two months ago, which seems to indicate that the use of call-barring technology alone is reducing their instance.

The argument is strengthened by examining StepChange’s research. A particular problem are the nuisance calls targeted at indebted people, which are causing tangible stress and anxiety. Some 65% of respondents to a website poll said that they were afraid to answer the phone as a result of nuisance calls or texts. That stress and anxiety risks exacerbating existing mental health difficulties. According to the World Health Organisation, the more debt people hold, the more likely they are to suffer from mental health problems. That further serves to illustrate why it is essential to ensure better protection for financially vulnerable consumers from the potential harm of nuisance calls or messages. Yet there is clear evidence that those people are being targeted.

More than 26.3 million British adults say that they have been offered high-interest credit via unsolicited marketing calls. For those who do not need it, that is annoying, but it is easy enough just to delete the messages. However, financial difficulties can lead to poor economic choices, and 6% of respondents said that as a result of a nuisance call or message, they had taken out a financial service or product that actually worsened their financial position. The lure of a no-questions-asked loan is difficult to pass up when someone can justify to themselves that it is only for a week until they get back on their feet.

The problem of protecting vulnerable consumers is the most pressing, since that is where consumer detriment is most significant. Whatever actions are taken to address the problem of nuisance calls in the longer term, that issue must be dealt with now using whatever available means.

The difficulty of coming up with an agreed figure for nuisance calls is not merely academic, because it reveals two issues that go to the heart of the problem. First, it suggests a lack of coherence in information and data about nuisance calls. Data are being generated and collected, or discarded, over a large number of organisations and are not effectively shared or centrally stored. For example, the all-party group was surprised to learn in its inquiry that BT does not share with the regulator data generated by its nuisance calls services. Similarly, trueCall, a manufacturer of call-blocking technology, reported that it had not been able to interest the regulators in the data generated through the use of its products. In addition, the TPS does not share data with the Direct Marketing Commission, but both are arms of the Direct Marketing Association.

The discrepancy between the number of initial reports received by consumer-facing organisations such as Which? and BT, and the final number of complaints received by the regulators, suggests that not all consumers who receive nuisance calls follow through the reporting structure. That could be for a number of reasons, but the most likely are that the complaints mechanisms are too onerous; the complainant lacks the necessary information to make a complaint, such as the name of the company or its telephone number; or, as has been said, people believe there is little point in making a complaint. The result is that we see only part of the picture at any one time, which makes it all the more important for us to act.

On the economics of nuisance calls, I am not saying that we must ban all direct marketing. The direct marketing industry undoubtedly contributes financially to the UK economy. Call centres alone employ more than 1 million people in the UK. Direct marketing techniques are used by a huge number of companies from a wide range of sectors to generate business. At its best, direct marketing can be informative and useful to consumers, helping them to find the best deal and the most suitable product for their needs.

On the other hand, nuisance calls cause such a high level of irritation that it is easy to forget that there is a market for them. They are made to generate sales. Their continued existence means that we can assume only that they are at times successful. The claims management industry is consistently responsible for the largest share of complaints, but nuisance calls originate from a wide cross-section of industries. In live calls, the top topics of communication are payment protection insurance reclaim, accident claims and energy. The top topics for automated calls are, similarly, debt management, PPI and energy. Other topics include research and surveys; so-called sugging, when the caller pretends to be from a legitimate market research organisation; Government grants, such as for loft insulation; and insurance and telecoms.

The inquiry heard evidence that an outbound live marketing call can be made for as little as 20p—the cost drops to just 1p for automatic dialler equipment. The average PPI claim is for around £2,700, with claims management companies receiving, on average, around 25% of that. The economics of the industry are clear: a single win can cover the cost of 3,125 live calls or 62,500 automated calls. That helps to explain the market in lead generation. We do not know the underlying figures, but it seems reasonable to assume that a significant proportion of calls are made by lead-generation companies, which work to collect data and potential leads for other companies, which then make the final sales call.

[Guy Opperman]

The hon. Gentleman is dealing eloquently with the economics of the process. Does he accept the proposition that the likelihood of our constituents taking calls between 9 o’clock at night and 6 o’clock in the morning is very limited? Does he agree that the Government could regulate against night-time calls, which are a waste of money for those companies, even if they put the auto-dial on and leave the building?

[Mike Crockart]

I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. I will go on to deal with the Information Commissioner’s Office guidance that covers exactly that problem.

The inquiry heard evidence that the low cost of making those calls means that there is no economic driver to undertake any initial targeting or research. Calls are so cheap that it is economically effective simply to dial telephone numbers in sequence. In comparison, with direct mail marketing there is a cost for delivering and returning badly targeted mail.

Having established the terrifying scale of the problem, it is clear that major reform is required, by Government and regulators, and by the telecoms and direct marketing industries. There is a need for major change, but there is also a danger of being paralysed by the necessary strategies, consultations, proposals and counter-proposals.

The all-party parliamentary group report published in October contains 16 recommendations. Ministers have a copy of it, but I should like to make the case for four areas in which urgent action is both necessary and possible, the first of which is a basic one relating to consent to receive calls and TPS registration. There are around 25 million landlines in the UK, of which 19 million, which is around three quarters, are registered with the TPS. There are 71 million mobile phones—more than the number of people in the UK—and many are similarly registered with the TPS. Each and every day, however, there are more than 2 million nuisance calls and texts.

First-party consent should override TPS registration. Maintaining a direct relationship with customers is key to any company and is valued by many of those customers. Nothing in the report seeks to limit contact when it benefits both sides and is properly consented to. However, third-party consent is a grey area. It is commonly referred to as, “Carefully selected third parties or trusted partners,” which could just as easily mean, “Any company that is willing to pay for your details.” Sometimes, if people say, “I am TPS registered,” it is enough to end the calls. Even then, a breach of the regulations has happened. However, companies often argue that people have given permission at some point in the dim and distant past. In all conscience, who can ever say completely confidently that that cannot be true?

I am sure the Minister will argue that the ICO guidance is in place, so action is not needed. If every company adhered to the excellent guidance, he would be right, but they do not.

[Sir Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove) (LD)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that, if every company were well behaved, we would not need a regulatory system at all? The point of the regulator is to deal with those who are unscrupulous or careless.

[Mike Crockart]

I agree entirely, and I am glad my right hon. Friend used the word “careless”, because carelessness and the ease of making calls without having to think too closely about the regulations cause much of the problem.

The regulations are in place and the guidance is excellent. A document issued by the ICO tells companies what to do. It states:

“Organisations can make live unsolicited marketing calls, but must not call any number registered with the TPS unless the subscriber (ie the person who gets the telephone bill) has specifically told them that they do not object to their calls.”

“Specifically” is the word, and the guidance seems straightforward. Hon. Members might think that it makes it clear that companies should not make calls in those circumstances.

The document also provides a checklist with an example of best practice, which states:

“Make sure your privacy notice is clear, honest and will be understood by the people it is aimed at. Avoid confusing mixtures of ‘opt-ins’ and ‘opt-outs’. Do not pre-tick consent boxes.”

Not only small, fly-by-night fraudulent companies ignore that guidance. I did a small survey yesterday of some well-known companies. Unfortunately, as expected, the reality is very different. Companies ask us in a multitude of ways to give our consent to be contacted. TalkTalk has a pre-ticked box for giving first-party consent, but there is an unticked box, which is better, for giving third-party consent. Virgin Media is confusing because its question combines first and third-party consent in one box, which defaults automatically to opt-in. As hon. Members would expect, John Lewis is much better. It excellently uses plain language on all its boxes and there is a separate box for each type of contact—e-mail, mobile or landline. Unfortunately, all the boxes are defaulted to opt-in.

I went to BT’s site and looked at buying a phone. Unfortunately, BT had nothing relating to first-party consent—there was no box to opt out or to opt in. The third-party consent option was defaulted to blank, meaning it was not defaulted to opt-in. I wondered about that, so I followed an obscure-looking link to its privacy policy, which states:

“Unless you tell us not to we assume we have your permission to tell you about BT products and services we think you might be interested in, we won’t send you marketing messages if you tell us not to.”

The way that one has to tell them not to, however, is by opting out when one receives them

“so you can opt out when we call you as part of a telemarketing campaign, you can opt out when we email you as part of a email marketing campaign, or you can write to a freepost address.”

That is absolutely not in tune with the guidance issued by the ICO. With such a confusing range of options, it is no wonder that consumers do not know what to tick or what they have consented to.

I will turn now to the level of proof expected by the ICO when presenting cases relating to nuisance texts. This should not take long, as the Government recently announced their willingness to lower the threshold, although they have not specified what the new level of detriment will be or when the change will be implemented. By reducing the level of detriment from “substantial damage or substantial distress” to “annoyance, inconvenience or anxiety”, it would align the threshold with that expected of Ofcom in silent call cases.

The recent decision by an appeals court judge to overturn the fine that ICO issued to Tetrus late last year demonstrates exactly why this section is crucial. Tetrus had been engaged in sending unwanted text messages on an industrial scale, sending hundreds of thousands of texts every week from unregistered SIM cards that seek out potential claims for mis-selling of PPI or accidents. Tetrus did not make any effort to show that the recipients had given consent, or that they retained records of consent. It did not even register with ICO under the Data Protection Act 1998 as a controller of data.

For 10 years, it has been unlawful to use text messages for direct marketing unless the recipient has either asked for, or consented to, the communication. While the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 gave ICO the power to impose monetary penalties of up to £500,000, there are certain preconditions. First, the contravention must be serious and it must also be

“of a kind likely to cause substantial damage or substantial distress.”

The appeals judge unfortunately decided to overturn the £140,000 penalty, as there were problems with the words “likely” and “substantial distress”. The judge ruled that the effect of the text messages was likely to cause

“widespread irritation but not widespread distress.”

That is an extremely worrying judgment that effectively gives a green light to any spam texter to send thousands—perhaps hundreds of thousands—of unsolicited texts, as long as they are careful not to use distressing wording. That seems to be the only point in the judgment on which there is a point of debate. If nothing else I say today is accepted, movement on this issue would be welcome.

My next point is on industry action and on those industries involved in making calls. Many of the calls sent by Tetrus were attempting to generate leads for claims management companies. Those companies are now regulated by the claims management regulator. I mention that only to point out that it is a good example to follow. Claims management texts are on the wane and there is a reason for that. As a condition of the authorisation of a claims management company, they must

“comply with the Conduct of Authorised Persons Rules 2013.”

I have a copy here and I need only read 30 words from this excellent document, because they say:

“Cold calling in person is prohibited. Any other cold calling, by telephone, email, fax or text, shall be in accordance with the direct marketing associations’ direct marketing code of practice.”

Those 30 words will hopefully have effectively dealt with texts from CMCs, because if their registration depends on abiding by the rules, it is amazing how the mind can be focused. That is why, when the Select Committee on Business, Innovation and Skills was writing a report into payday lenders, I managed to sneak a recommendation into it. It said:

“We recommend that the FCA…discusses with the Information Commissioners Office…to establish the extent of bad practice”—

in the area of direct marketing.

“We…recommend that the FCA devises and issues a guidance note for payday lenders along similar lines to that established by the Claims Management Regulator in its Marketing and Advertising Guidance.”

The problem here is that we should not have to do it piecemeal—bit by bit, for each sector of industry. We should be able to set that at ICO level, where we are dealing with the method of making those calls.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. Just before the hon. Gentleman progresses, I should gently point out to him that he has spoken for over half an hour and, while the House appreciates the importance and intricacy of the points he is making, I know that he will bear it in mind that several other Members would like to speak this afternoon. While I do not urge him to conclude his remarks immediately, he might be thinking about drawing to a conclusion in due course.

[Mike Crockart]

I thank you for your guidance, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am heading towards to my last few points, I promise.

The reason for slipping in that recommendation is that when we took evidence from payday lenders I had put them on the spot and asked them whether they engaged in this sort of direct marketing. They said, “Oh no, of course not. We wouldn’t do that.” I went back through my texts, therefore, and found nine directing me to a website offering payday loans: www.text4payday.com—don’t go there! On that website, I filled in details asking for a £200 loan over a month and pressed the button, “Get your cash”—not “Apply”, but “Get your cash”—expecting to be quoted a £50 charge, as advertised on the payday lender sites. Instead, I was directed to the QuickQuid website, which was one of the companies that gave evidence, where I was offered £400 over three months at a total cost of £754.

I left it at that, because I did not think it was a particularly good deal—I did not even press any buttons on the second website—but I then received e-mails and texts as follows: Tuesday 5 November, 1.16 pm, an e-mail saying there was one more step to take; same day and time, an e-mail giving me pre-contract information; half an hour later, a text urging me to sign the contract; 15 minutes later, a call from America urging me to sign up, which I declined; 20 minutes later, another e-mail giving me pre-contract information; the next day, at 6.32 am, an e-mail saying, “Hurry, application expiring soon”; at 7.59 am, another e-mail with pre-contract information; at 12.9 pm, another e-mail with account log-in information. That was worrying enough, but I then thought, “Well, is this website just a front for QuickQuid?” so I went on again, only this time I made up details. I called myself Boris Peep and made a further application. I put in my constituency address and immediately started getting texts saying “Hi, Boris. Your application has been approved.” So a made-up person ended up being approved for a payday loan. It is very worrying and needs urgent action.

The telecoms industry also needs to take action. It is time that some of them stopped looking on themselves almost as delivery companies—“As long as you pay the postage, you can send any old rubbish you like. In fact, the more the better, as we will charge you for each packet.” The industry needs to take responsibility for the nuisance calls it is delivering daily, and some have decided to do exactly that, which is welcome. In mobile circles, if someone receives a spam text, they can forward it using the short code 7726, and the date is aggregated and forwarded to the Information Commissioner’s Office. I want that model replicated for landlines. In our evidence session, we asked Warren Buckley from BT whether we could have it, and he said:

“From our point of view first of all I would have to set up a whole new service”

and

“work out where I’m going to hold that data… I’m not suggesting we can’t do it, and I’m not suggesting that we won’t do it,”

but

“it’s extremely difficult for us to do.”

I went on to BT’s website and found a helpful BT calling features user guide, which told me about its “choose to refuse” service, which lets people choose who gets through:

“Choose to Refuse lets you put a stop to nuisance or unwanted calls by stopping them from getting through to you. You can block up to ten numbers.”

To do this, customers dial 14258**, and the number is added to a database. That does not sound too onerous or difficult.

[Sir Andrew Stunell]

Does my hon. Friend agree that if the telephone companies are receiving the revenue from 1 billion nuisance calls a year, there is little incentive for them to throttle that profitable supply of calls?

[Mike Crockart]

I believe the expression is: you might suggest that, but I could not possibly comment.

[Guy Opperman]

May I comment? [Laughter.]

[Mike Crockart]

I am trying to finish, Madam Deputy Speaker, I promise.

[Guy Opperman]

Is not the point that the customer is effectively being charged and required to take action that the company should be taking without such a charge?

[Mike Crockart]

That is an excellent point, and one I will come to very shortly, as my final point, I promise.

Returning to Warren Buckley’s comments, I presumed it was difficult because other companies did different things, making it harder to ensure consistency, so I looked at what TalkTalk did. It has a product called “last caller barring”. To use it, the customer dials 1425, and confirms by dialling **, after the number they want to block has called. It sounded remarkably similar to BT, so I went to Sky where its calls feature summary says that Sky has last caller barring, but it costs £3.55 a month. To bar a number following a call, one has to dial—gosh!—14258 followed by **. Exactly what I want is already here; it is just that the telecoms companies are doing it independently and charging for it. It should not be that difficult to take this issue forward. I say to Ministers that some in the industry will say that doing this is too difficult, too technical and too costly, but I hope they that will not be distracted or dissuaded. The companies are doing this already, but charging for it. They should not be allowed to get away with it.

Finally, let me deal with helping our most vulnerable consumers. Right now in the UK, 100,000 people are being targeted over and over again by fraudsters. Their names and numbers appear on a “suckers list”, which is sold at premium rates among the criminal community. If criminals were repeatedly targeting these people by breaking into their homes, there would rightly be an outcry, and action would surely follow. Because they are being targeted by phone, however, we seem content to stand by and make excuses—excuses such as “All moneys collected from fines must be returned to the Treasury Consolidated Fund”—that means £2.36 million since 2010—or “We do not have the authority to establish a fund or a direct industry to do this”, or “Spending is severely restricted across Departments”.

As I mentioned, pilot schemes by trading standards in Angus, East Dunbartonshire and East Renfrewshire council areas saw call-blocking technology installed on vulnerable consumers’ domestic phone lines. The results of the trial show that up to 98% of nuisance calls were blocked, giving those people significantly better control over their lives and their safety. In its report, “Mind the Gap”, Age Scotland has called for this scheme to be rolled out nationwide, and I agree. We are not talking about a huge number of people or a huge sum of money, so I issue a challenge today— and not just to Government, but to local authorities, telecoms providers and manufacturers of call-blocking technology. Surely together, we can find the resources to protect these most vulnerable people in our society. I can always press delete or hang up for another few months until regulations are tightened or behaviour is improved, but unless we act, someone’s mother or grandfather will lose their life savings tomorrow.

15:02

[Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)]

I am pleased to be able to take part in the debate. I congratulate the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) on bringing the matter forward so comprehensively, and I thank the Backbench Business Committee for arranging the debate.

I have some sympathy for Ministers—I do not often say that—because this issue is undoubtedly a complex one that covers many areas and for which there is no simple solution. As has been said, the scale of the problem is huge and the data appear to be contradictory. The regulators told the all-party group that they receive 6,000 complaints a month, yet BT told us that it receives—the hon. Gentleman corrected the figure I cited in an intervention—about 50,000 calls a month to its nuisance calls bureau, so clearly there is a disconnect. The reason why people are calling BT but not the regulators might be that many still identify BT as the national phone operator, or it might be that the regulators have failed to get the message across that they are responsible for dealing with the problem. The situation is further complicated by the fact that there are two regulators for different aspects of the issue, although their websites direct to each other’s as required. Part of the problem is that this situation has gone on for so long that people have simply got fed up and no longer trust the regulator to deal with it. That is serious, because we need the regulators to work with the Government and get things done.

Politicians should be slightly careful when talking about this matter because it is not unknown for political parties to use telephone canvassing. What we may see as democracy others might view as nuisance calls. Indeed, I received a telephone call during the 2010 election on behalf of a Conservative candidate asking me whether I would prefer the current Prime Minister or the previous Prime Minister to be in charge of the UK. I leave it to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, to imagine my response, but suffice it to say there was no box to tick for “a plague on both your houses”. That illustrates that those calling may have done little or no research into who their victims are.

I have been approached by many constituents who have been on the receiving end of nuisance calls. They are often keen to describe the adverse effect that those calls have had on them. All of us are victims. Like many, I have been registered with the Telephone Preference Service for years, but I still receive many nuisance calls, which are clearly targeted at specific times. In my house, we usually receive them in the early evening. Often the person who has made the call will start by uttering the immortal words, “We are not trying to sell you anything,” to which the appropriate response is to say, “Aye, right,” before putting down the receiver. Sometimes, however, we receive so many calls in quick succession that we do not answer the phone and leave the answering machine to pick up the calls.

I got so fed up that I invested in one of BT’s fancy phones that allow people to screen out such calls, but they are only a partial solution, because they can screen out only certain types of call or specific numbers. For example, it is possible to block all international calls or calls with no caller identification, but that obviously presents difficulties, as many organisations—including Parliament—withhold numbers automatically, and many of my constituents have friends or family members overseas and therefore cannot use the international facility. The only other option is to block individual telephone numbers, but the number that can be entered is very limited, so given the volume of calls that can be received, that will not deal with the problem. It is also difficult to find out what callers’ numbers are without caller line identification, and many of the numbers appear to be bogus in any event. Increasingly often, the CLI number turns out to be bogus, especially if voice over internet protocol is used to generate a false number.

Of particular concern is the number of elderly people who receive such calls. Many of those who contact me feel that they are being specifically targeted. That might well be true, although it is also possible that they receive more calls because they are in during the day. A recent trial of call-blocking technology by my local authority, Angus council, found that 40% of calls received by the elderly were nuisance calls. There is a serious problem that many elderly people who receive such calls are persuaded to sign up for specific services or contracts. In some cases, elderly people have signed up to numerous contracts to insure the same washing machine, for instance, and found themselves in a very difficult position.

Elderly people are especially upset by silent or abandoned calls—when they answer the telephone and no one is there. Unlike marketing calls, which are the responsibility of the Information Commissioner, those kinds of calls are the responsibility of Ofcom. Many elderly people feel threatened and fearful when they receive such calls because they do not understand that they are simply a marketing device. Regulations under the Communications Act 2003 were intended to limit the number of calls that are abandoned because no live agent is available to answer them. They set out that a recorded message must be delivered when that happens, but my experience of receiving such calls is that the line often simply goes dead, with no recorded message, which is a clear breach of the regulations. Given that most nuisance calls are made during the day, elderly people are more likely to receive silent calls. The 3% limit for which the regulations provide still allows a huge number of calls to be received by the elderly so that needs to be tackled.

Elderly people may experience more specific problems. One of my elderly constituents who had difficulty with her hearing received a call that she thought was her energy company offering the renewal of a contract involving her gas boiler. She was persuaded to provide her bank details, and it was only later, when she thought about it, that the call seemed a bit strange to her. A check with her energy company confirmed that it had not made the call—indeed, it said that it never made such calls—and my constituent had to go to the trouble of rearranging her bank account to ensure that she was not the victim of a scam. Luckily, no money left the account on that occasion, but many people may be taken in by such calls.

I used to receive regular scam calls—emanating, I think, from overseas—in which an agitated individual claimed that he was from Microsoft. He said that my computer was sending a message that it was under attack from a virus and urged me to enter codes to stop it. I would not claim to be especially computer literate, but I am not that daft, so the caller was given short shrift, but again it was impossible to get details of who was actually phoning. That sort of scam might well take in people who are not confident with computers but use them for things such as internet shopping.

The fact that such a call originated from overseas illustrates one of the huge difficulties with this issue. The hon. Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman) talked about calls coming in during the early hours of the morning, and I wonder if the real reason is that an automated caller from overseas has not correctly accounted for the time difference, because no one in their right mind would try to sell something at 1 am. Whatever Ofcom and the Government might do in this area, it is unlikely to have much impact unless they can get co-operation and action from other Governments and regulators.

When the all-party group asked BT whether it could block overseas nuisance calls, it said that the vast majority of such calls do not carry caller line identification, so it would not know what to block. It apparently can block all calls without CLI, but it made the point that many overseas networks do not support CLI, meaning that it would be blocking all calls from certain parts of the world, which would clearly be impractical.

As the hon. Member for Edinburgh West pointed out, many UK companies operate overseas call centres that phone into the UK, which adds another dimension to the problem of blocking overseas calls. These companies must take some responsibility for the overseas call centres that they operate—or, more likely, to which they give business, as in some jurisdictions there are huge call centres that work for many companies. Companies must have some responsibility to look at who they are employing and to ensure that they are complying with regulations.

Such a huge international dimension can be dealt with only through international agreement and action, so I will be interested to hear from the Minister what progress is being made to tackle the problem, and especially about what discussions have been undertaken with the Governments and regulators in overseas countries such as India, which host many of these call centres.

The all-party group also made it abundantly clear to BT that we thought that it was inappropriate, to put it mildly, that it was in the process of introducing a charge for its caller line identification service, which had previously been free to many users. Of course it is true that some companies, such as TalkTalk, do not charge, so consumers may wish to consider that when they are arranging a service. However, it is also the case that BT, through Openreach, operates far and away the largest part of the network, and it probably still has the majority of customers. What discussions has the Minister had with BT about that issue and what pressure can he put on it to reconsider its decision? As has been said, telephone companies can generate a great deal of revenue from this practice, so some responsibility on their part would not go amiss.

I think that many of us were quite surprised about some of the evidence about the TPS. Clearly many people, including some members of the all-party group, did not fully understand the terms of the system, especially the fact that if someone ticks a box saying that they will be happy to receive information from a company—or, indeed, that that company may pass information on to other companies—that is treated as overriding the terms of the TPS and can, it seems, open a huge new range of companies that can legitimately telephone people. Clearly some companies were using that loophole which, it seems to me, brings the whole of the TPS into disrepute.

Indeed, it appears that many companies are acting as phishing agents by operating specifically for the purpose of obtaining information that can be sold on to other companies—so-called lead generation. That is an abuse of the regulations. We recommend action to clean up that part of the industry through an accreditation scheme, but I feel that we need to look at the situation much more closely and, in particular, at how information about what will be done with the details gathered is given to those targeted by such companies. Again, people who take on services should be given a clear statement. The hon. Member for Edinburgh West pointed out the difficulties about wording, but a statement saying simply, “If you tick this box, your data will be passed on and you may receive marketing calls,” would make it clear to people what they were signing up to or not opting out of, which would be a great step forward. Much of the problem could be dealt with by giving people such clear statements.

I also believe that any consent should be given for only a limited period. It has been pointed out that when people give consent, it seems to last for ever. Why should it not have to be renewed at regular intervals? Someone might not remember ticking—or failing to tick—a box when buying something on the internet in the distant past. They might not realise that they had given their consent, and they will continue to receive calls without realising why. We should reverse the system to ensure that that consent had to be actively renewed. I wonder how many people would do that, having received such calls for a year.

I know that the Minister has been working on a strategy to deal with the problem, and I would be interested to know what action the Government are considering. I said at the outset that I had some sympathy with him. I would not like to be the one who had to come up a system that we could all work with and that satisfied everyone in the Chamber and in the industry. However, this issue of huge concern to our constituents needs to be tackled. Like the hon. Member for Edinburgh West, I appreciate that an economic argument is involved. Some of my constituents work in call centres. We have to strike a balance but, at the moment, the balance seems to go against the people receiving the calls, rather than those who are making them, and that needs to be addressed.

15:16

[Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) on securing the debate. This matter is clearly the cause of great annoyance and anger, and it results in complaints from a large number of people. I suspect that Members of Parliament are no different from any other member of the public in this regard. I started getting calls some time ago asking me whether I wanted to make a claim for having been mis-sold payment protection insurance. I found that a little puzzling as I had never had PPI, but I then discovered that the calls were made indiscriminately and bore no relation to whether the recipients had actually bought the product. That is probably the most common kind of nuisance call, although it is not exceptional.

I also want to congratulate Which? It has been very effective in raising awareness of this issue and has mounted a good campaign. I went on to Radio 5 Live to debate the issue with some of the main regulators, and the extent of the problem and the strength of feeling about it became apparent from the calls to the programme. It was then that I suggested the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport might investigate it. The hon. Member for Edinburgh West and my hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns) also founded the all-party parliamentary group on nuisance calls, which has held its inquiry in parallel with ours. All those investigations have contributed to the recommendations that we will be debating.

It is important to point out that there are perfectly legitimate reasons why, in principle, there should be cold calling. Some people have said that we should just ban it, but, early in our inquiry, the National Autistic Society pleaded with us not to do that, saying that cold calling was one of its most effective fundraising methods. There are legitimate reasons for cold calling, including fundraising and using it for political purposes. We had an interesting debate in the Select Committee when the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw), who cannot be here today, told us that about once a week he rang up a number of his constituents at random to ask them their views and to discuss whatever was going on at the time. We debated whether that came under the definition of nuisance calling, and we decided that it did not, because it was part of the job of a Member of Parliament to keep in touch with his constituents. There are reasons why people should make unsolicited calls, and I certainly would not want to ban them.

One also has to assume that it is of some benefit to some people that they receive calls to ask whether they have been mis-sold payment protection insurance. One has to assume that companies would not be making these calls unless some people said, “I am so glad you rang. Yes, I was mis-sold PPI and I would like you to help me.” If these companies had got no custom and simply annoyed every person they called, the exercise would seem fairly pointless. One therefore has to assume that some people will welcome these calls, but that does not justify the scattergun approach whereby these companies appear to be calling millions of people across the population and identifying perhaps one in 1,000 who welcome the call.

My Committee was presented with compelling evidence—the hon. Member for Edinburgh West referred to some of it—about the scale of the problem: 85% of the population had received a cold call in the previous month, with the average number of calls being about seven a month. That is an enormous amount, and it is not surprising that the number of complaints about this issue has increased dramatically in the past few years. Some 62% of the unsolicited calls relate to PPI, so that specific driver has led to a large number of the complaints.

I do not want to repeat the hon. Gentleman’s comprehensive speech, as he went through the various component parts of the problem and possible solutions in detail. The Committee concluded that there was no single magic bullet to deal with the problem; it could be broken down into a number of different parts and in each case there was an argument for strengthening the regulation and increasing the protection available to consumers. I will briefly go through the four relevant areas, which have been covered by him and by the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir).

Like the hon. Member for Angus, I understand why people who have gone to the trouble of registering with the Telephone Preference Service, having been told that by doing so they will be sending a message that they do not wish to receive calls, are deeply irritated when they go on receiving them. We were concerned to be told that even though somebody may register with the TPS, that expression of their wish can somehow be deemed to have been overruled because they happen to have ticked a box at another time, often when they are buying a completely different product and are asked whether or not they wish to receive marketing calls relating to products from that producer or, indeed, from third parties. I was interested to hear the results of the research that the hon. Member for Edinburgh West had done on various companies’ practices as to whether the default is to say that people want these things. That is part of the problem: people register with the TPS, think that they have made sure that they will not get any of these calls and then tick a box, perhaps a few days or weeks later, which results in the expression of their wish expressed through the TPS being overruled and in their starting to get these calls again.

One thing we talked to the Information Commissioner’s Office about was the extent to which companies should be able to claim that a TPS preference had been overruled by a subsequent action. The ICO has already begun to take on cases relating to that area, arguing that the consumer’s wish has been improperly overlooked. There may be scope to do more, particularly through the Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003, which I am sure the Minister will mention. The Committee also looked at whether there should be an expiry time: where someone gives consent to say they are happy to receive these calls, is that for time immemorial or should a renewal be required after six months?

The Committee thought that the simplest solution, which I would like to see applied more widely, is that where a complaint is made against a company for making unsolicited calls, that company should be required to show the consent—it should show why it has called that individual. The company should be able to produce evidence to show that the individual had given consent to be called, particularly if they were registered under the TPS. That would be a simple requirement for the ICO to enforce to deal with some of this confusion over whether consent had or had not been given.

The next component is the technological opportunity to obtain information about who is calling or to block people making calls. Ofcom published a useful table that goes through all the various services offered by different operators, such as caller display, incoming call blocking, anonymous call rejection and last-caller identification. It also shows whether the major providers offer those services and whether they do so free or charge for them. As this has become such a matter of public controversy and concern, it is healthy that operators are now beginning to compete, as part of their own marketing, by telling consumers the protections they offer.

Yesterday, TalkTalk announced that it is to become the first and only internet service provider to make all landline privacy calling features completely free. There may be some argument over whether other operators offer free services or charge for them, but the fact that TalkTalk clearly thinks it is in its interests to market its services by offering such protections free to its customers can only be a good thing. We were concerned when BT, having told us about the services that it offers, particularly caller line identification, announced that it was changing the terms of its contract and that some people would be required to pay for that feature. That seemed a retrograde step. Although it is a matter for BT, we none the less expressed a very strong view that BT and all other telecoms providers should provide that kind of service to their customers free, and that there are clear market advantages in so doing.

The hon. Member for Edinburgh West also talked about the ease with which it is possible to report a nuisance telephone call to one’s telephone service provider. As it happens, I got one yesterday by text message and I used the 7726 service, which is easy to use on a mobile telephone. It was suggested to us, as it was to the hon. Gentleman, that that was much more difficult to do with landline calls, but, as he said, similar services are already available. For example, people can dial a number as soon as they have received a call to ensure that it is blocked next time. A reporting system of that kind should be relatively simple to operate. I accept that there may be greater and different challenges as we move towards more internet protocol telephony, but I have every confidence that the telecommunications companies in this country have the ability to overcome the challenges and develop protections should they choose to do so.

The Committee also looked at the confusion that undoubtedly exists over where responsibility lies. There are different bodies, all of which have some role in accepting complaints and enforcing regulations. Although we did not agree with some people who said that there should be a single regulator, we did think that there should be a single point of entry for the consumer, so that the consumer does not have to sit down and think, “Should I ring up Ofcom or go to the Information Commissioner’s Office or the Telephone Preference Service?” There should be a single front-facing telephone number for consumers, so that if they get a nuisance call, they can report it and then the people at the other end of the phone can work out which is the appropriate body to pursue the complaint.

Finally, there is the question of enforcement. It may well be that more resources are needed to deal with the sheer volume of complaints. I agree with the hon. Member for Angus that the number of people who bother to make a complaint are a small fraction of those who suffer nuisance calls. For every person who complains, there are at least another 10 who feel that this is one of the irritations of life that they can do nothing about, and so do not bother to make a complaint. There is a case for Ofcom and the ICO to concentrate more on this area and to deploy more resources. To help them, it may also be necessary for us to lower the threshold for enforcement action. It has been suggested that rather than having a threshold that requires substantial damage and distress to be proven, all that should be required is the ability to show that it has caused annoyance, inconvenience and anxiety. Once that has been demonstrated, perhaps there should be higher penalties. When there are repeat offenders, repeat penalties should be imposed.

A large number of different measures can be taken. No single one will sort the problem out, but taken together they should have a real impact. They were set out, very well, in the report by the all-party group. That suggestion was repeated by my Select Committee, which made a number of similar recommendations and one or two different ones. I hope that both reports will have helped to inform the Government and we look forward with keen anticipation to the Minister’s response, who will, I hope, set out what the Government intend to do.

15:30

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

Let me begin by apologising to the House, as I will have to leave at 4 o’clock to go to a parents evening. I cannot depute that to my husband because he is in hospital this week.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) on the excellent campaign he has run and on his work on the all-party group on nuisance calls, which I was pleased to support and contribute to, albeit in a minor capacity. He has done well to bring the matter to the attention of colleagues and it is also good that the Backbench Business Committee understood how many complaints Members on both sides of the House were receiving.

The report by the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport is also extremely useful and I congratulate the Chair of the Committee, the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale). Outside this House, excellent work has been done by Which?, by David Hickson and by Ofcom. We debated the issue about a year ago in Westminster Hall, but this afternoon’s debate is better informed because of all the work that has been done.

The Chair of the Select Committee is, of course, right that marketing calls are a necessary means of reaching consumers in the modern world, but the number of nuisance calls has exploded and seems to be up threefold since 2010. The calls range from irritating spam texts to distressing hard-sell calls for so-called services such as payday loans. As Mr Speaker might say, the public do not like it. Which? has secured 109,000 signatures in support of its campaign. Such calls are the No. 1 complaint received by Ofcom and, as hon. Members have said, are a particular issue for pensioners.

Ofcom’s survey found that 80% of people were affected by the problem and more than half the people who sign up to the Telephone Preference Service continue to receive nuisance calls. That brings into question the effectiveness of the TPS. This is the sort of practical issue that any competent Government ought to be able to sort out. There are no big political issues here. It is a shame that the Government have not introduced the communications Bill that they have been talking about for more than three years, which could have dealt with the issue speedily, and I am pleased that the House is taking a lead this afternoon.

One of the key underlying issues is the Government’s failure to take seriously the privacy of individual citizens and the protection of personal data. Let me quote the second paragraph of the Select Committee’s report, which expresses this extremely well. It states:

“A significant underlying feature giving rise to nuisance calls is the unfair processing of personal data, something that is proscribed by the Data Protection Act 1998. Such processing includes obtaining a customer’s ‘consent’ to receive unsolicited marketing calls in ways that are at best opaque and at worst dishonest. It also includes trading personal data with companies lacking in scruples.”

The problem runs far wider than nuisance phone calls. A key modern marketing tool is the collection, use and selling on of personal data. The Minister and I have debated that previously, because the Government are currently resisting European Union proposals to give people more effective control over their personal data. We still have not had a proper explanation. Are they adopting a Eurosceptic posture, or are they being lobbied heavily by big business? Neelie Kroes, the commissioner responsible, proposes that an individual must give their explicit consent for the use of personal data. It is significant that the Select Committee has now reported that the current law is being evaded and that new legislation is needed.

The Secretary of State for Justice described the EU proposals as “mad”. I would like to ask the Minister whether the Government have yet changed their mind and whether they will commit to new legislation on the matter. It was good to see the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), who has just been appointed as a Justice Minister, here earlier. I have corresponded with his predecessors on the matter but, frankly, found that rather unsatisfactory. I hope that the officials in the Box will draw that correspondence to his attention and ask him to look at the matter again. I have high hopes that he will take a fresh look at it and place greater emphasis on the importance of protecting people’s personal data.

We believe that new legislation is needed for explicit consent on a wider definition of personal data, and we are attracted to the idea, put forward by Which?, that there should be a time limit beyond which that consent expires. Three months might be a little on the short side, but I think that some sort of time limit would be a good idea. In the meantime, as the Select Committee has said, the Information Commissioner should use his existing powers more energetically.

A key tool for people to make complaints and to protect themselves by not answering unwanted calls is calling line identification. The privacy package introduced by TalkTalk this week shows some of what is possible. Furthermore, both the Select Committee and the all-party group were right to criticise BT’s introduction of charges on 1571 calls and on caller display. At a time when the public are facing a cost of living crisis, a monthly charge of £1.75 for CLI is just another bill that people cannot afford. A bill of £21 a year is quite unjustified. During the all-party group’s evidence sessions, I asked what the cost of doing that across the board would be, and the industry was unable to tell us. I have since learnt that, depending on the technology, costs might range between zero and a one-off set-up cost of £1. For BT, therefore, it could not possibly cost more than 0.4% of its total annual profits of £2.5 billion.

The hon. Member for Edinburgh West pointed out the full range of charges currently being made by all the companies, from £3 for this to £4 for that, and the numbers really add up. Will the Government now act to require the provision of calling line identification for free? We support the recommendation of the Select Committee and the all-party group to do that.

Prevention is better than cure. Currently, the marketing sector is incentivised to exceed the 3% abandoned calls rule and the withholding of caller ID, even though that is part of the Direct Marketing Association’s code of practice. The Select Committee recommends putting that code into legislation. Will the Government now commit to doing that?

In our previous debate, we discussed the need for one single complaints portal and a seamless operation, with data sharing between the ICO and Ofcom. When will the Minister bring forward legislation to facilitate such information-sharing between the two regulators? For the public, there must be a one-stop shop, and obviously this must not be solely an online service. It could be based on the co-regulatory model, funded by industry, as proposed by the all-party group and the Select Committee, not least because co-operation among the telephone companies would facilitate the tracing of more calls. It would also be sensible to lower the threshold for action from “substantial damage and distress” to

“nuisance, annoyance, inconvenience or anxiety”,

as recommended by the Information Commissioner. It is also worth ensuring that fines are imposed on and paid by those exceeding the 3% abandoned calls limit—and, as the Select Committee has said, persistent offenders should be repeatedly hit.

It is absolutely clear from this debate that nuisance calls are a very serious problem, especially for vulnerable and elderly people living at home alone. People are upset to be offered so-called services they do not and hope never to need, such as accident claims. They cause anxiety and distress. Simple solutions that do not add to bills and the cost of living crisis are needed. There seems to be an emerging consensus that the Government need to toughen up the legislation. DCMS Ministers have delayed in bringing forward a Bill, and I hope that the Minister will now commit to doing so. The time for research and reflection has been fulfilled; the time for action is now.

15:42

[Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)]

Everybody has their favourite moment in terms of nuisance calls. Mine came one new year’s day in the late 1980s, when, as duty officer at the British high commission in Nairobi, I was woken at 3 am by a gentleman on a crackling line from the Indian ocean coast assuring me that he had a vital issue on which he needed my help—he wanted to know the result of the previous day’s Liverpool-Manchester United game, on which he had a small bet with a neighbour.

This debate is about an issue that concerns Members in all parts of the House. The hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman), in an otherwise interesting speech containing two ideas on which I share her views, had a brief go at trying to make it a party political debate, but it is not that. Nor is it only a Scottish matter, as was somewhat suggested by the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) being swiftly followed by the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir); it happens in all parts of the country. I want to highlight a couple of specific issues and then outline three or four recommendations, at least one of which has already been mentioned, for the Minister to mull over during this important debate.

In November, one of my constituents, Mrs Jill Smith, wrote to me saying,

“As you know we changed our number in the summer & have listed 9 such calls since the 16th Sep. on our new number. It never stops & is worse for the elderly at home all the time.”

Sadly, as all hon. Members will know, the issues that Jill Smith raised with me after she changed her telephone number and registered with the Telephone Preference Service by no means represent an isolated case. If we quantify her problem around the country, we see that it has increased enormously. Statistics revealed by a written question to the Minister at the end of last year show that the number of calls where a recorded voice was heard increased from 1,640 in 2009 to 59,447 in 2013-14, and that the number of calls where a consumer spoke to a person increased from 1,735 to 40,231. The increases in both cases were very similar and there was an enormous, gigantic increase—a big leap forward—in the leap year of 2012-13.

The situation has got worse and the hon. Member for Edinburgh West, whom I congratulate on securing the debate, has highlighted that regulators receive about 6,000 complaints a month. BT estimates that it receives about 50,000 calls a month to its nuisance calls bureau, including, no doubt, a large number of nuisance-like calls complaining about significant nuisance calls, so the number of nuisance calls and nuisance calls about nuisance calls becomes an increasingly circular frustration and irritation for all involved. We all agree that the worst affected are the elderly and the vulnerable. When it comes to dealing with nuisance calls, the Ofcom online guide will not necessarily help many of those worst affected, because they are not online.

During the course of my research for this debate, I discovered—I am sure many other Members found this, too—that regulatory responsibilities are split between several agencies: Ofcom is responsible for taking action on abandoned and silent calls and for maintaining the TPS; the Information Commissioner’s Office takes action against companies that breach the TPS and follows up on consumer complaints; the claims management regulator has a responsibility, because the vast majority of calls are from claims management companies; the Office of Fair Trading regulates debt management companies; the National Fraud Authority and/or the police are responsible for taking action on scams and fraudulent activities; and PhoneplayPlus is responsible for premium rate numbers.

One cannot help reaching the tentative conclusion that six different bodies—seven, if one includes the TPS—is too many. It is time for the Government to consider who is ultimately responsible for tackling the problem, which is a problem of practical politics rather than party politics. It relates to implementation and reducing the number of people who have some responsibility to a much smaller number with complete responsibility. That is my first point, having looked into the business of nuisance calls.

My second point relates to the TPS, which, in concept, is a brilliant idea. There are 19.5 million numbers registered with the TPS and it is free. It has to be a good thing, but the question is whether it is still fit for purpose. The June edition of Which? said that the TPS is failing to cut off nuisance calls—we all know that that is true: Jill Smith’s letter makes that clear—which leaves 57% of those registered with the service unhappy. The head of the TPS, John Mitchison, told The Guardian last year:

“It has eradicated lots of unwelcome calls…But the rules are complex, have loopholes, are split between agencies, tend to lag technology advances, and have been low priority.”

Numbers registered with the TPS have to wait 28 days before a breach counts, which raises a practical question: could not the TPS be updated in real time? On market research, perhaps it does not behove a politician to suggest that it should be banned—legitimate opinion pollsters have a role to play—but there is an issue.

An ICO review of the TPS was due this spring, but Ofcom has said that it will now be released this summer. The definition of summer sometimes stretches out during the course of a year, so the Minister will no doubt want to comment on when he expects the review to be delivered. It is important and I think it will lead to other opportunities, which I will touch on in a moment.

Another point is about possible conflicts of interest. BT, which is keen to block persistent offenders, is concerned about being in breach of the universal service agreement. That area could perhaps be tightened up.

I turn now to the whole business of trying to make recommendations about how things could be improved. First, we can all agree that there are too many nuisance calls and that the number ought to be reduced. We know that our constituents want them to be eliminated or reduced as much as possible.

The hon. Member for Edinburgh West referred to the fact that some telephone companies charge for services that ban numbers from ringing us, particularly at home, which is disconcerting. I am encouraged, however, by the fact that my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale) mentioned a change in policy by TalkTalk, which suggests that it may lead the way to other telephone companies recognising that such services should be provided to consumers free of charge.

Secondly, on rationalisation of the regulators, there are too many bodies with different responsibilities, and there is a need to simplify and clarify the system. Thirdly, there is a particular opportunity to look at whether the TPS should be a separate organisation or effectively merged with the ICO. Fourthly, as a couple of speakers have mentioned, the ICO currently has the ability to fine offenders, but the reality is that one was fined in 2012 and three in 2013. I think that we all therefore want the threshold to be lowered. Whether the change is a legal or a practical one, nuisance callers should be fined on the basis of anxiety and stress as defined by the consumer. That gives the Minister four opportunities on which to respond.

I conclude by returning to Mrs Jill Smith. The Minister kindly replied to my letter, stating that

“we believe in greater enforcement and robust action rather than sweeping changes to the regulatory framework”.

In an answer to a written question, he promised an action plan early in the new year. Today, we are indeed early-ish in the new year.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

Time for action.

[Richard Graham]

It is indeed time for action. I very much look forward to hearing more from the Minister about a robust action plan—I know that he cares and that he wants to solve this problem—so that Mrs Jill Smith and many others like her can look forward to a new year free from nuisance calls.

15:52

[Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)]

Nuisance calls are probably the thing about which I receive most complaints over the year. If I look at the number of contacts I get from my constituents, I probably get more calls only in relation to badgers. Every time I go to a luncheon club or a supported living scheme, or anything where elderly people gather together, it seems as though getting nuisance calls is the No. 1 thing that they want to talk about. Two elderly constituents contacted me this week to tell me that they get such calls on average about once an hour.

We heard earlier about the very worrying trend of calls that are made during the night. I do not know what it is like in other Members’ houses, but at 10 o’clock at night, if I am not in the Chamber for a debate or to vote, I am in bed. I am an early riser, and I like to be in bed at 10 o’clock. If I get a call after 10 o’clock, I am alarmed—I think, “Oh, what’s wrong? It’s my mother. It’s the grandkids.” That is how most of us feel if we get calls after 10 o’clock, so calls at 2.30 or 3.30 am involve an alarm factor. We have also heard about elderly constituents’ concerns about being confused or perhaps subject to falls after getting up in the middle of the night, so if people are getting calls at that time, it represents a worrying trend.

My elderly constituents tell me that they do not like marketing calls or unsolicited texts, but that it is the silent calls that cause them the greatest alarm. Quite honestly, if people are living alone, such calls frighten them. I have received one or two silent calls myself and they are not pleasant.

I sympathise with the Minister because the legislation is extremely complex, although I did not realise quite how complex it was until I heard the detailed speech made by the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart). I thought that I had a reasonable attention span, but I could not follow his description through to its conclusion. I intend to get hold of Hansard tomorrow because his contribution was incredibly helpful, not least because he gave the numbers to which people can report these matters. He gave a masterclass in how to take the House through a complex area of legislation and regulation. Until today, I was not entirely clear about who people should complain to.

When I have asked constituents to get hold of a phone number so that I can refer it on, they often tell me that it is withheld. We also have to remember that people have incredibly busy lives. The Chair of the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale), said that for everybody who makes a complaint, there will be 10 people who do not have the time to do so, but I think that the figure is probably closer to 50. When I receive these texts and get irritated by them, I think to myself that I will complain, but then life piles in and I find that I do not have the time.

There appear to be problems involving enforcement and deterrence. The right hon. Member for Hazel Grove (Sir Andrew Stunell) said that the people who commission nuisance calls are “careless”. He was absolutely right, as they could not care less, but they are not stupid, so they are clearly making a profit out of the practice. Even if the calls are illegal, they could not care less, because they continue to make profits. There does not seem to be any deterrent or enforcement that will make them stop.

We have heard good suggestions on what the Government could do to deal with this problem, including from the Chair of the Select Committee and my neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman). However, I do not think that the problem will stop, so if it does not, we simply have to hit the companies hard in the pocket. We could name and shame companies. We saw what happened to companies such as Starbucks when the public heard about their attitude to paying tax in this country: people simply walked past and bought their coffee somewhere else. Naming and shaming companies in a way that would have an impact on their profits might be how to deal with the problem. If this is to be taken seriously, we need to hit the people at the top of these organisations and make an example of them.

The current situation is complex and what we are doing is not working. Our constituents are being harassed on a daily basis. I am encouraged by the body language of the Minister because he is indicating that he will do something—that the time for talking is over and now is the time for action. I hope that the debate will give the Government the impetus they need to take action to prevent nuisance calls and protect our constituents, especially our elderly constituents.

15:58

[Sir Andrew Stunell (Hazel Grove) (LD)]

I apologise to the House for arriving a few minutes late at the start of the debate and to my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) for missing a few minutes of his tour de force. I did catch the final 35 minutes, however, so I hope that I got the essence of it.

I got out of my hon. Friend’s contribution and those of other Members that some of the stock responses and deflection tactics that are used by different parts of the industry do not stand up to detailed inspection. The Minister has a duty to the House, when he responds to the debate, to say clearly and firmly that the Government acknowledge that and are prepared to take action.

This is a troubling issue for my constituents. When my hon. Friend the Member for Cheadle (Mark Hunter), my neighbour in Stockport, started to deal with this matter for his constituents, he asked me whether we could have a combined approach to support our constituents. We both organised petitions for residents of our constituencies to make their case to us, and the response that we got was overwhelming. People were fed up with nuisance calls—whether automated recordings, calls from foreign calls centres or silent calls. Whatever time of day or night they come, they are overwhelmingly unpopular. They create trouble and difficulty, and my goodness me, our constituents in Cheadle and in Hazel Grove were ready to tell us about it.

Last autumn, my hon. Friend and I presented to the Prime Minister at No. 10 a petition from the two constituencies asking for action to be taken. I understand that it is in the gift of No. 10 as to whether the Government will make a statement. I do not know whether the Minister will disclose that decision to us today, but I hope that the petition that we submitted will contribute to a positive answer from No. 10 very shortly.

I wish to give the House a brief illustration of how pervasive nuisance calls are. During the conference season, I was away from home for five days. When I returned, my answer machine had 17 calls on it. On examination, 16 of them were nuisance calls—silent and pre-recorded calls. Some had a calling line identification, but universally, if there was CLI, it was a spoof or incorrect. Half those 16 calls were silent, and I can well understand that for people more vulnerable than I am, such as older people for whom the telephone is still something of a new contraption, such calls must be a really frightening experience. The Minister needs to take account of the evidence that exists, both anecdotal and in surveys.

The all-party group’s report—I perhaps should declare that I was a member of the working party that produced it—said that, looking at all the evidence, there could not be fewer than 1 billion nuisance phone calls each year. My hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh West cited another figure: according to the evidence that we received, 1 million people are employed in call centres. Taking those figures together, it means that each call centre operative makes 1,000 nuisance calls a year, which is a very small number—20 a week. I cannot believe that any call centre employs people to make only 20 calls a week, which prompts the question of whether that figure of 1 billion nuisance calls is right and how many calls made from such centres are not described as nuisance calls but instead produce a good result.

When the group took evidence in our inquiry, I had the opportunity to speak to a representative of one of the major network operators, who offered me his estimate that at some times of day, a quarter of all the traffic carried on his network consisted of nuisance calls. I have no way of knowing the validity of that information, but it gives some idea of the industrial scale of what is going on and the impact that it can have on our constituents. It certainly has a big impact on the elderly and on my constituents, who have been keen to say so.

In case it has not already become evident to the Minister, I want to tell him that there is a huge gap between best practice and normal practice. For instance, the rulebook states that if a silent call has inadvertently been made to a number, no subsequent silent call should be made to that number for another 72 hours. I do not believe for a moment that any call centre operates that 72-hour ban. It is incredible that they can, bearing in mind how many silent calls people receive on the same day, one after another. Silent calls are supposed to be not more than 3% of the total calls made by operators or call centres. It is difficult to believe that that is being complied with. If all call centres operated the 3% rule, 97% of calls would not be silent, but that is transparently not the case. The 72-hour rule and the 3% rule are not being obeyed.

Calling line identification is verging on useless. Some companies phone with no identification and some have spoof identifications. I have had endless calls on my phone from 012345, 00000 and so on. Clearly, the system is not working in that respect.

As other hon. Members have said, reporting problems is a nightmare. There is no simple system and there are multiple ways to complain. Who people phone up and what they are supposed to do depends on what kind of call they have suffered. Understandably, my constituents either do not know who they should call or have no confidence that anything will happen if they call. In evidence to the Culture, Media and Sport Committee, ICO staff said pretty much that there was little likelihood of an individual complaint resulting in any action against an operator.

Several hon. Members have mentioned problems with TPS, which is widely bypassed and ignored by those who phone up. It is certainly not effective. I am on TPS, but that did not prevent the calls I received in that conference week. Essentially, it is a commercial service run by the Direct Marketing Association that operates on the basis of trust, without any practical teeth that will produce an outcome. It is also based on extremely old-fashioned technology, which means that it takes 28 days for the system to click and become effective after people have registered. That does not help large numbers of people, even assuming that the system works properly when it is activated.

By way of conclusion, I want Government action. I want to see the action plan in spring—in civil service terminology, it is due shortly. When I was a Minister, I once asked for the definition of “shortly”. It took the civil servants several minutes to get over the laughter. I would enjoy hearing from the Minister, when he responds to the debate, when we can expect the action plan.

[Mr Vaizey]

May I quickly give the right hon. Gentleman my definition of “spring”? I have learned as a Minister that the definition of “spring” in Whitehall is February to November.

[Sir Andrew Stunell]

The Minister, for whom I have the greatest respect, has been sucked into the machine to an even greater extent than I had feared.

I hope that, when we have the action plan, the Minister will say something about bringing the regulators together. The all-party group report makes the point that we could waste quite a lot of time physically uniting them in one organisation, but we need a joined-up regulatory system, with all the sources of information going into one place and with one group of people looking at whether there is a pattern in an area of activity so that we do not have the current fragmentation at the operating end of the regulatory system.

I want the Government to say that the CLI service should be provided by all operators for free. I also want the Minister to say that Ofcom will be permitted to allow the blocking of rogue numbers by telecoms firms. That seems to me to be how to teach those people a lesson. The industry can get TPS working properly and quickly. There does not seem to be any reason why some of the better technological solutions should not be in place very quickly and working well. We also need a short code that will allow consumers—my constituents—to report nuisance calls of all kinds very quickly.

I think that the Minister has got my point. I press him to go well beyond good intentions and to give us some serious delivery on a nagging problem that is driving my constituents mad. They are getting irritated; they are disturbed and angry. Some of them are vulnerable, and they are looking to this House and this Government to do something to relieve their concerns.

16:10

[Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to follow a number of excellent speeches. I was interested to hear the Minister give his definition of what “shortly” might mean. When I was a Minister in Scotland, I remember a civil servant telling me that “shortly” was “sooner than in due course”, but he was not prepared to commit to anything more than that.

I congratulate the Backbench Business Committee on enabling the debate to take place. I congratulate the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) on his excellent contribution, which provided all the technical detail and information on this important issue. Perhaps unusually for me, I will not be having a go at the Minister on this occasion. He has been helpful in bringing together the different organisations and the different parts of the regulatory system to try to deal with the issue.

I was prompted to speak largely because of correspondence from constituents—I have taken an interest in the issue since arriving in this place because many constituents have made complaints to me—but also because of the excellent campaign run by The Sunday Post, to which the hon. Gentleman referred. The wonders of modern technology are such that during the course of the debate I have been able to follow, via a Twitter feed, the views of The Sunday Post, and I am sure that many people will have taken a great interest in what hon. Members have said.

Many people have asked why we cannot just have a simple mechanism—pressing a button or sending a text back—to deal with nuisance calls. Surely the wonders of technology that give us such excellent Twitter feeds should enable me simply to press the appropriate button if I decide—and heaven forfend that I should; this would never be the case—to block The Sunday Post and to hear no more from it. I therefore find it difficult to believe that there is not a way for people who do not want to receive nuisance calls to deal with them more efficiently and effectively.

We have heard that many elderly people are often the victims of silent calls or nuisance calls, and they can be the people most distressed by them. The work undertaken by Age Concern Scotland, which was referred to, is important, as is the work of local authorities. We should expand on that work. However, it is not only elderly and vulnerable people who have to deal with nuisance calls, texts and faxes—for those who still operate fax machines. They are also a problem for business.

The hon. Gentleman referred to calls which say that the Government want the business to know something. Those types of calls give real concern to the individuals receiving them, because they may not be sure whether they are a scam or something actually relating to Government policy. For example, energy efficiency is often talked about. Businesses will receive a text, fax or other form of information that implies that it is somehow linked to the Government when that is not the case.

By way of illustration—this does not relate specifically to the debate, but I might come back to it at another time—a businessman in my constituency recently contacted me to say he had received something that looked like a Government publication giving him information on how to apply for grants, but when he signed up and paid almost £400, it turned out simply to be information he could have received from me, the business gateway or someone in the local authority’s economic development department, without parting with any cash. In such cases, as when elderly people and others sign up for things over the phone, when people discover it is a scam, they are often embarrassed to admit to it, and so do not come forward. I am sure there are many examples of businesses responding to these things and then discovering they were not what they purported to be.

We have heard about the extreme complexity of the regulatory framework, and I want to mention offshore calls. I have recently answered, or attempted to answer, the phone in my home and either discovered that the number or information relates to a company operating in the UK but calling from offshore, or made that assumption because no information has been provided. I understand the difficulty with the complexity of the regulations, but none the less I hope the Government can address that problem.

As constituents have also told me, it is easy enough for companies to receive these calls, but extremely difficult for them to call back and get hold of a person to complain to. Often they are advised to register online or to complain in writing, but it would be much simpler if the minute a call came in, they could press a button and send a message or immediately get through to someone and say, “Look, this has happened just now. What can you do about it?”

Constituents have also complained about premium rate phone numbers. I know the Government are looking at that in relation to public services, but people often complain to me that when they call one of these numbers, they have to hang on for ages and press a series of buttons, only to be referred to a website at the end. Such things do not give people any confidence that the industry, or indeed Government and politicians—we also suffer these complaints—are taking it seriously enough. I hope the Minister will respond to that.

Hon. Members have mentioned the number of calls to people who have taken out loans. The hon. Member for Edinburgh West gave some interesting examples. It will be interesting to hear how many more unsolicited approaches he gets from payday loan companies now that he has admitted to having used them on an experimental basis. For people already in difficulty, however, and who perhaps have health or mental health problems, to be pursued to that extent is unacceptable. I hope that the Minister will take account of the suggestions of the Select Committee and hon. Members today, including the shadow Minister, who, for good reasons, could not stay for the full debate.

If someone signs up and gives permission for such calls, that ought not to be ad infinitum, but to be reviewed after a while, in particular given the complexity of how people give permission. Sometimes they might not realise exactly what they are signing up for and that they will be subject to a range of marketing from several different companies, not just the one company they are dealing with. Also, there is the difference between opting in and opting out. I am sure that all of us, at some stage, have failed to untick the box or have ticked the box at the wrong time and subsequently received a huge amount of information we did not want.

We have heard helpful examples of progress being made—as with TalkTalk—but it is unacceptable that BT wants to introduce more charges, such as for the 1571 service and caller ID. For many elderly people using these services, the cost—even if only a couple of pounds on the phone bill—can be a considerable amount for them. Sometimes they fear the technology or do not trust it and they are worried, particularly if they have had experience of the TPS system, that the technology might not in itself solve the problem.

We have had a useful debate, and I hope that the Government will take account of what has been said. I know from the Minister’s comments at various meetings and events that I have attended that he takes this issue seriously. Recalling his definition of spring, which stretches to November, I hope that he will be able to take action shortly and do something this winter, providing some comfort to the thousands of people who have signed the petitions, seen their MPs and written to the newspapers asking for action. I know that the Minister wants to see something happen; we now need to hear what it is going to be. We hope that it will be sooner rather than later. I end with a final reference to The Sunday Post because if the Minister can achieve that, it will be “the very dab”—exactly how The Sunday Post would put it.

16:21

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

I am grateful for the chance to respond to the debate, which I congratulate the hon. Member for Edinburgh West (Mike Crockart) on securing. It is worth noting the contributions of three hon. Members who are not present. My hon. Friend the Member for Vale of Glamorgan (Alun Cairns), whom the hon. Member for Edinburgh West mentioned, is co-chairing the all-party group on nuisance calls. When the date of this Back-Bench debate was changed, it meant he could not be here, but he has put a huge amount of work into the issue and would have liked to be present. For good reasons, the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) cannot be here for the debate’s conclusion, but she made a powerful speech as Opposition spokesman.

The presence of the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), who was in his place earlier, was significant, because it showed that one of those rare, almost unheard of events had taken place—joined-up government. When the new Minister was appointed over Christmas, I reached out, made a nuisance call to him out of the blue and told him that I would be very pleased if he would engage with me on this issue. He certainly has engaged with me, and I look forward to working with him more, as he gets his feet under the desk. Joined-up government between the Ministry of Justice and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport is highly important. As many hon. Members have pointed out, this is a complex regulatory landscape, involving two regulators—Ofcom, for which my Department is responsible, and the Information Commissioner’s Office, for which my right hon. Friend’s Department is responsible. It is important for our two Departments to work together.

We have heard a number of valuable contributions, not least from the hon. Member for Edinburgh West who opened the debate. Other contributors were the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir), my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon (Mr Whittingdale) who is the Chairman of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Bishop Auckland who is the Opposition spokesman, my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham), the hon. Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass), my right hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove (Sir Andrew Stunell) and, last but by no means least, the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson), who contacted me about this issue many months ago. She requested a meeting and has maintained her interest and her campaigning work on the issue.

To put an end to any speculation from the outset—I know that hon. Members are on tenterhooks—let me say that the strategy document is ready to go. It was originally due to be published on 31 October. I discovered that if a Minister tells officials that a document will be published on a certain date, the work starts to crank up exponentially. I congratulate my officials on their excellent work over the period to hit that deadline. We were ready to publish then, but we decided to wait for the all-party group on nuisance calls to conduct its report because a lot of hard work had gone into it. We said that we would also wait for the Select Committee report, which came out at the beginning of December. Once those two reports had been published, we incorporated their findings in our strategy document, which then began its meander around Whitehall for clearance. One thing that we inherited from new Labour is the grid—the grid that sits in Downing street: the holy grid—and we are waiting for a slot in that grid, which, I assure Members, is harder than finding a slot at Heathrow. However, the document is ready to go, and I shall now reveal to Members what, broadly speaking, is in it.

We all agree that nuisance calls are a menace. I was extremely grateful to some Members for saying that they sympathised with my position and recognised that I was working hard in trying to make an impact on the problem. They did not need to say that, and it was very kind of them to do so. I was also grateful to the Members who pointed out that the direct marketing industry is valuable to the UK economy. We must not throw the baby out with the bathwater—we must recognise that a legitimate industry is doing a legitimate job—but make no mistake: as is clear to all Members who have done so much work on the issue, nuisance calls are a scourge that needs to be tackled.

The hon. Member for Bishop Auckland observed that the number of such calls seemed to have increased significantly. That is partly because it has become easier to report them, but I suspect that it is also due to the increase in the number of calls relating to payment protection insurance, which has, in a sense, been a unique phenomenon, in that it has provided an opportunity for—perhaps—the more careless members of the industry to seek ways of making an income.

There are three categories of nuisance call. Both live, unsolicited marketing calls, when someone—a real person—rings up out of the blue, and automatic pre-recorded calls are covered by the Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003, and fall within the scope of the Information Commissioner. Silent and abandoned calls—automatic calling machines repeatedly make the calls, but when one picks up the receiver no one is there—are covered by Ofcom, which can tackle them by means of its powers to oppose the persistent misuse of networks under the Communications Act 2003. We have increased the maximum fine that Ofcom can impose for silent and abandoned calls from £50,000 to £2 million, and have given the Information Commissioner’s Office the opportunity to impose a fine of up to £500,000 for unsolicited calls and texts. My hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester mentioned my letter to him, in which I referred to the need for enforcement. The powers are there to make an impact, and since January 2012, Ofcom and the ICO have issued fines amounting to £2. 5 million.

We have also sought to give Ofcom and the ICO a closer working relationship. I now regularly chair a round table that brings them together, along with representatives of telecoms companies and interested Members, including the hon. Member for Edinburgh West.

What more can we do? As a number of Members have pointed out, the legal threshold that the ICO must meet before it can issue a penalty is too high. It requires the ICO to demonstrate that a breach of the Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations would result in “substantial damage” or “substantial distress”. The ICO has argued that the threshold should be lowered, and has suggested a test involving

“nuisance, annoyance, inconvenience or anxiety”.

I agree with the ICO that a lower threshold would generate more effective enforcement, and we are keen to legislate this year. That will be in the strategy document. There will have to be consultation on it, because it will require legislation.

[Richard Graham]

Is it on the grid?

[Mr Vaizey]

I do not know whether it is on the grid, but the announcement is governed by Downing street, and the legislation is governed by the Leader of the House.

In order to improve the working relationship between Ofcom and the ICO we also want to make it possible for Ofcom to share the data it has with the ICO, which is not possible at the moment. We will introduce a statutory instrument. That order will be brought into force by the beginning of April. We will look at consent. That will be in the strategy document as well. Members have rightly pointed out that there is frustration with the Telephone Preference Service but again the frustration partly arises from the fact that consumers may not realise they are giving consent and therefore effectively allowing the marketer to override the TPS.

The PECR states that a marketing call cannot be made to a consumer who has registered with the TPS unless consent has been given. The ICO has updated its guidance on this issue, but I accept there is scope for greater clarity to help consumers make informed decisions. We are considering the scope for action in this area and once we have published the strategy document we will launch a hands-on consultation working with consumer groups, particularly Which?, which has been excellent in the area of nuisance calls, and with our regulators to look at a practical way forward. Incredibly complicated regulations could inadvertently be brought in were we to introduce detailed regulations about when informed consent is given. If we are to change the regulations, it is important that we get them absolutely right and that they are clear and not confusing.

Many Members have made the point that there is no silver bullet and I thought the Select Committee report was excellent on that. For example it is easy to say we should just merge the regulators, but when we look into the issues, we see the situation is much more complicated than that and we are much more likely to make more rapid progress by simply making the regulators work together.

In a complex and fast-moving environment, it is also important that we look at what measures we can take without legislation. With developments in telecoms technology, it is now easier and cheaper than ever before to make calls. That is good news for consumers, but rogue companies can also utilise the same technology to circumvent regulation and bombard us with unsolicited calls and texts. We therefore need to look at not just legal measures, but industry collaboration, technical standards, and support from telecoms providers.

We also want improved information and guidance for consumers, to enable them to register complaints on regulators’ websites more easily and also access information about steps they can take to deal with nuisance calls. This information is available, and the guides have been viewed more than a quarter of a million—or perhaps I should say 250,000, as I think that is the new parliamentary expression pioneered by the Leader of the Opposition yesterday—times and are clearly proving to be a valuable tool. Additionally, as a result of our engagement with the consumer organisation Which? it has now developed a user-friendly page on its website whereby consumers are automatically directed to the right place to access information as well as to make complaints. In addition to issuing fines, the ICO “names and shames” persistent offenders on its website so that consumers are better informed about those who break the law.

I mentioned earlier the upswing in the number of nuisance calls. I think that has been generated by the payment protection insurance sector. There is an alphabet soup of regulators with a role in this area, and that sector is regulated by the claims management regulation unit. Through our engagement with it, it has put more resources into tackling the problem of unsolicited calls and text messages to ensure that it can move more quickly to investigate and take enforcement action. It is working actively with the ICO, Ofcom and other relevant bodies to detect and punish those involved. I welcome the action it has taken and continues to take against claims management companies that fail to comply with the rules. From June of last year it started to publish the names of companies under investigation or subject to recent enforcement action. Between July and September 2013, it conducted 41 audits, issued 25 warnings, commenced 11 investigations, cancelled 109 licences and visited 407 claims management companies.

When introducing measures it is important that Government start to think about what impact they might have on nuisance calls. For example, the ban on referral fees in personal injury cases appears to have had the knock-on effect of reducing the volume of marketing calls to potential clients, because claims management companies can no longer receive a fee for referring client details. The claims management regulation unit is actively policing the ban on referral fees, in addition to the ban on claims management companies offering financial rewards.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

The measures that the Minister is outlining are welcome. We are dealing here with nuisance calls, one category of which is the downright scam, which regulations might not be able to cope with. Does he acknowledge the importance of publicity from his Department and perhaps from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills in dealing with scam calls? I have heard examples of people getting phone calls from overseas selling them bogus computer insurance; I am sure we have all handled that kind of case. Those scams need to be publicised and people need to be warned about them. Does he agree that such publicity is important in dealing with not only nuisance calls but scams, and that continued efforts need to be made by Ofcom and by the Government in that regard?

[Mr Vaizey]

Yes I do; it is important for consumers to be aware. Organisations such as Which? and official regulators such as Ofcom and the Information Commissioner’s Office are great sources of advice on where scams are under way. They are often organised, all-pervasive scams that touch hundreds of thousands of people, and it is important that clear information on them should be disseminated to people as quickly as possible.

Taking that intervention has given me the opportunity to notice that the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark has snuck into the Chamber. He might not be aware that I mentioned him earlier in the debate, when I said how grateful I was to be working with him. For his edification, I should say that I also pointed out that he and I had embarked on an almost unique experiment called joined-up government to see whether our two Departments could make an impact by working more closely together. But I sense that the House is tiring of that joke. The mood of the House tells me that I should move on.

I also want to talk about call blocking. Market solutions are available for consumers wishing to block calls at individual level, and I am pleased that network-level solutions are now also being considered by telecoms providers and other companies. That is an important development. Phones with call-blocking technology are available for the consumer to buy and use in the home, but network-level blocking is also very effective.

Almost all Members who have spoken in the debate have raised their concern that consumers will be charged for services that could help them to tackle nuisance calls—in particular, caller line identification, call barring and anonymous caller rejection. This is clearly a commercial decision for companies, but it is important that consumers are aware of whether those services are being charged for and how much they cost, so that they can look into which telecoms companies are offering the best deal.

In that regard, I am pleased that, at the end of last year, Ofcom published a table setting out the cost of such services provided by the main telecoms companies. I hope that that will make the companies realise that this is a service that their consumers value. I welcome TalkTalk’s announcement yesterday that it is to become the first company to make all its landline privacy calling features free of charge, and I hope that the other telecoms companies will have noted the clear, strong steer from Members in the debate today that charging for those services is not a good idea.

Hon. Members have also mentioned international calls. It is particularly frustrating when nuisance calls are made from abroad, and it is therefore good news that we are working with BT on finding a way to display incoming international numbers, enabling consumers to make informed decisions. Hon. Members might be angry with BT for charging for caller line identification, but I hope that they will congratulate the company on updating its telephone exchanges to enable that service to encompass international calls. That update is expected to take place after the summer of this year.

We have also been working with the telecoms providers on call tracing. It is sometimes difficult to identify who has made a call, perhaps because the number is unavailable. But we have asked the Network Interoperability Consultative Committee, which brings together all the major telecoms companies, to develop new industry standards for call tracing between networks, as well as revising the current rules on how caller line identifications are passed between networks and presented to consumers. The new call tracing standard was published at the end of last year, and it will simplify and increase the likely success of the process.

We also face other technological challenges, for example, from technology that allows numbers to be “spoofed”. Companies may wish to give customers a local number to call rather than the number of their national centre and so this technology can be used for legitimate reasons, but it can also be misused for nuisance calls. So, again, we are working with regulators and industry to see how that can be addressed. We are also working with the regulators and telecoms providers to explore technical opportunities to make it more difficult to misuse caller line identification in that way, and to help identify companies that are doing so. The spoofing issue has an international dimension, and last autumn Ofcom and the Information Commissioner’s Office announced that they would be joining forces with regulators from Australia, Canada and the United States to tackle spoofing.

The issue of nuisance texts has been raised during the debate. Mobile operators, the Global System for Mobile communications Association—GSMA—and the ICO are working together to allow mobile operators to share their information to help block nuisance texts, no matter which network they emerge from, as well as to enable the regulator to take more effective enforcement action. The GSMA spam text reporting service enables consumers to make a report by using a short code, “7726”. Such reporting makes a difference. To give just one example, we have been told by the mobile operator Three that it suspends thousands of pay-as-you-go accounts each month in its efforts to tackle nuisance texts. As in many cases, the expertise to tackle such issues lies in the industry, which is why it is so important that we continue to work with it. The marketing industry also needs to play its part. Last October, the Telephone Preference Service launched its accreditation scheme, “TPS assured”, which focuses on improving the best practice of companies using these techniques. That is, in effect, a kitemark for call centres; it allows companies that do adhere to the Direct Marketing Association guidelines to get an industry accreditation that they are TPS assured and to use it in their marketing material.

A lot of hon. Members have mentioned their concerns about the effectiveness of the TPS. As I said at the beginning of my remarks, some things were beyond the control of the TPS and it is up to the Government, working with consumer groups, to look at the issue of consent. We need to have clear and specific information to guide our thinking on the effectiveness of the TPS. The TPS is governed by Ofcom, although Ofcom has contracted out its management to the DMA. Ofcom is undertaking research on the effectiveness of the TPS and that work will conclude in the spring. We expect Ofcom to publish its recommendations in the summer.

Let me touch on some of the other actions being taken. Regulators, the ICO and Ofcom sent a joint letter to about 170 organisations reminding them of the need to ensure compliance with the rules. The ICO has engaged with more than 20 organisations responsible for making nuisance calls through compliance meetings and has monitored their progress over a period of three months. As a result, there was a substantial reduction in the number of complaints about those 20 companies. Ofcom has also taken informal action against 25 organisations. As a result, complaints linked to telephone numbers used by 16 of them stopped and the number of complaints against five others fell significantly—four cases are ongoing. Again, I wish to assure hon. Members that although the fines get the headlines, a lot of behind-the-scenes work is going on, with both Ofcom and the ICO engaging with organisations that attract a persistent and high number of complaints.

I am also very aware of the concerns raised by the StepChange Debt Charity in its October report “Got their number”, which highlighted the serious consequences that can arise from nuisance calls for people who are financially vulnerable. That report notes that there are many factors that feed into this issue, including the apparent ease with which people’s personal data can be gathered and sold on. The hon. Member for Bishop Auckland also mentioned her concerns about personal data. Again, the issue highlights the need for my Department to work more closely with the Ministry of Justice. There should be a joined-up approach to data management in this area.

I share the concerns that regulators should be able to take greater action, and I hope that the information-sharing legislation that we will introduce as well as the proposals in the joint action plan published by Ofcom and the ICO will lead to more action in this area. I take this opportunity to welcome StepChange’s efforts to provide clear advice for consumers and also its willingness to promote Ofcom’s guidance on nuisance calls.

As I said at the beginning of my remarks, I welcome the interest that has been shown in this issue. We have an excellent report from the all-party group on nuisance calls. Both Backbench debates today have highlighted the effective work that all-party groups can undertake. We also have an excellent report from the Culture, Media and Sport Committee. We have also had a number of private Members’ Bills, parliamentary questions and sustained and helpful interest from a whole range of Members.

I hope that we have shown that we have some clear proposals, which we will publish once they have received clearance in the Whitehall write-around. We expect that to involve two pieces of minor legislation, which should make a significant impact in terms of allowing Ofcom and the ICO to share data and of reducing the threshold for what constitutes a nuisance call. Further work will commence on the complex issue of consent, which is a live issue. It is an important matter. Indeed, the chairman of the all-party group challenged me at a meeting yesterday about what action would be taken after the report was published. I made a twofold commitment to him. I will continue my wider round-table discussions every three months, bringing together all the relevant stakeholders, telecoms companies, Members of Parliament, regulators and others. I also committed that the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark and I would meet him once a month for an update on where we are on making progress on action against nuisance calls. As has been said by several Members during this debate, the time for talking is over and the time for action has arrived. In order to continue to make an impact, it is important that I am held to account and that regular meetings take place.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Mr Crockart, you can make the concluding remarks. You are on the clock. There is a time limit of three minutes.

16:47

[Mike Crockart]

I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I presume that your words are in reaction to my earlier speech.

This debate felt like a consolation prize after the fall of my private Member’s Bill last year, but it has been an excellent debate, which has aired many of the issues that we identified during our all-party parliamentary inquiry. It is a complex area. Although my speech was described as a tour de force, there were many other points that were raised by others that I did not even mention, such as charging for caller ID, the effectiveness of the Telephone Preference Service, the EU directive, the exponential growth in the number of calls and the sense of a structure for regulators.

The hon. Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass) described my short speech as a master class. I think the subtext was that I had bored her into submission, and I apologise for that. She introduced the idea of naming and shaming, which is already happening, but perhaps needs to happen even more.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Hazel Grove (Sir Andrew Stunell) missed the first five minutes of my speech. I am happy to repeat them for him later. He brought up the subject of spoofing, and talked about the response from constituents. He made the point that people are suffering quietly, and not complaining about the issue, but when they are asked it is clear how angry they are.

The hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Cathy Jamieson), in attempting to steal my headlines, mentioned The Sunday Post a number of times, so I will trump her and mention the fact that it is @PoliticalYeti on Twitter. It has 602 followers—I am sure that that will help them a little bit. She contrasted the ability of the companies to make calls with the inability to make complaints by phone, which bothers me very greatly. She mentioned my alter ego, Boris Peep, so perhaps I should finish by giving an update. An organisation called Shopachecksms-uk—the wage day advance company has obviously passed or sold on my alter ego’s details—has offered me a cash loan of £500 delivered to my door. I want to make it clear in Hansard that I do not need it, thank you very much.

I thank the Minister. He is absolutely engaged and we have a good ministerial team that will be able to move things forward. We have had action on some things and not so much on others, but the best thing is the commitment.

This is a complex area, but it is clear that there is a willingness across the House to see action. I am confident that we will see that, but I urge the ministerial team to be bold and ambitious, as such action has the benefit of also being popular.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House has considered nuisance calls.

Post Office Services

Thursday 16th January 2014 Commons Chamber

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Karen Bradley.)

16:51

[John Robertson (Glasgow North West) (Lab)]

I thank the speakers in the previous debate for giving me some extra time for this important debate. We have had many debates on post office services, and there will continue to be more unless we manage to solve the problems of the Post Office.

Post offices play a significant role in all our communities—80% of people in Scotland say that post offices play an important role in the local community. They act as a vital service and should be seen as community hubs. Sadly, rather than nurturing those community beacons, the Government have done a lot to undermine the network and decrease the services that it provides.

There are about 11,800 post offices in the UK and customers rely heavily on them, especially the most vulnerable in our society—the elderly, those on low incomes and the disabled. The universal service obligation and other services are so ingrained in our society that I fear the loss of them. For example, 43% of elderly people use a post office to access cash. People take it for granted that they can walk into a post office and deliver items within the UK and across the world. We need to act now to keep the Post Office thriving, otherwise we might be at risk of losing that vital institution.

The announcement by the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) in November that additional funding had been allocated to complete the network transformation programme was a vote of no confidence. If the Government had delivered on the front office for Government work that had been promised, which I shall speak more about later, that £640 million would not be needed.

[Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)]

Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that the transformation programme is working against many small post offices? In particular, the Post Office appears to be targeting some offices and persuading the postmaster to retire so that it can move into a local shop and downgrade the service.

[John Robertson]

The hon. Gentleman is right, and I shall come on to some of those points as we move on. There is no doubt that larger post offices—and even sub-post offices, for that matter—are shutting. When I spoke at a conference for sub-postmasters from Glasgow and Ayrshire, they let me know exactly how they felt about the Government’s position, and, for that matter, that of the previous Government. At least they were there to help and they offered some examples that I will mention later.

Although the Government will have spent around £2 billion on network transformation, we still will not have an attractive model for current or future operators. The money will have been used to subsidise exit from the network, as the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) said, rather than to make the network sustainable in the long term. That is of great concern to the many people who rely on post offices. We should be looking at making the Post Office better, rather than, as I suspect, making it ready for privatisation.

The sale of Royal Mail was of course resisted by the Opposition. Last week’s news that its share price was £5.67—£2.37 above the Government’s offer price, which raised just £3.3 billion—was disappointing. It was an ideological move, not a financially sensible or thought-through one. The separation of the Post Office and Royal Mail has added millions of pounds in costs to the Post Office owing to loss of synergies. No other postal administration in a developed economy has separate letters and retail businesses.

The sale has now been done, but we must still consider Royal Mail in our strategy for the future of the Post Office. Just under 40% of Post Office revenues come from mail, so it is a significant part of the business. I was glad that, in January 2012, the Government caved into pressure and signed the 10-year inter-business agreement between Royal Mail and the Post Office, but there is no guarantee beyond 2022. The position is also not secure for the next 10 years, as the Minister’s own Department has said that the contract allows for changes in commercial circumstances and contains provision for a review of the agreement terms after five years. The 10-year agreement would therefore appear to be for only five years, but hopefully the next Government will be of a different colour and will put right some of these short-term ideological decisions.

It is a real concern that Royal Mail might not continue to support the post office network. The loss of that contract would seriously undermine the Post Office’s integrity as a mail delivery service. Were that to happen, people would lose confidence in the institution and the future of many post offices would be at risk, especially the largely loss-making ones in rural areas, such as the one represented by the hon. Member for Angus. Privatisation is a risk to Post Office services and we need more guarantees for the decades to come.

A post office is a place where people can go to fill in government forms or to pay for government services. It is important for both customers and employees that the Government continue to give the Post Office sufficient work. This Government announced in 2010 that post offices would become the “Front Office for Government”, but actions speak louder than words. They promised to give post offices £466 million of Government work, but post offices are currently gaining only £130 million from Government business.

I am sure that the Minister will say that the Post Office has won all the government contracts it has bid for, but those were contracts it already had, not new ones. No new major services have been awarded to post offices, and the National Federation of SubPostmasters has stated that the few that have been introduced are for one-off transactions that are available in only a small number of post offices. Dangerous precedents have been set by not awarding government contracts, and the future of the Post Office is in jeopardy as a result.

Linked to that, we need to ensure that post offices are not disadvantaged compared with other methods of using government services. For example, if I wanted to pay my road tax online, I could bring up all the details—whether my car had its MOT and insurance, for example—via an online portal. I would not need to go looking for documents, as the information would already be on the system. However, until very recently, post offices could check only a car’s MOT, so people would have to bring in their insurance documents. It is clear that those who could choose to use the internet over having that inconvenience would do so. After all, who wants to have to carry around their documentation to ensure that they get their road tax? Thankfully, in this case, somebody has seen sense, so post offices can now check insurance as well, but the internet was well ahead on that, and that should be a lesson for future online services. Post offices do not need to have an advantage—in fact, sub-postmasters tell me that they do not want it—but they should have at least a level playing field. People should be able to use the post office to access Government services with the same ease as on the internet. The decision not to award the green giro contract to the Post Office was another example of how the future of the institution—

17:00

Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)).

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Gentleman, but we have reached the moment for a procedural motion, after which I shall ask him to resume his speech.

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Karen Bradley.)

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I am sorry to have interrupted you mid-flow, Mr Robertson.

[John Robertson]

That is quite all right, Madam Deputy Speaker; you are in charge, after all.

The decision not to award the green giro contract to the Post Office was another key example of how the importance and value to people of the institution’s future were not even considered. The move was widely condemned by charities, which highlighted the fact that it would affect the elderly and vulnerable the hardest. Andy Burrows of Consumer Focus said:

“research suggests that people, particularly those on a low income, value the security and privacy that post offices provide.”

There is a real necessity for post offices that cannot be measured by numbers. When we think about the use of post offices, such matters should be considered, but it seems that in this case they were not.

Such a thing is also relevant when we talk about the Post Office’s announcement last year that it is to franchise several Crown post offices. There is a lot of concern, particularly among the vulnerable people I have mentioned, that certain services will no longer be easily available to local people, leading to an inferior service for our constituents and the loss of one-to-one help from specially trained and committed post office staff. We must also bear in mind the livelihoods of hard-working staff in Crown post offices. Post Office Ltd appears to have handled this very badly through a lack of consultation with staff, unions and key stakeholders, which resulted in a strike. About 800 jobs are at risk owing to franchising, but that does not seem to have been considered during the decision-making process. Have the Government learned from this and how will the Minister proceed with franchising? Can she explain why the Crown branch section of the network should receive no public funding at all and yet hit break-even by April 2015 when other sections of the network will continue to receive public funding after this date? Many Crown branches are in the poorest and most disadvantaged parts of the country. A more realistic timetable would balance the need to protect services and jobs with financial sustainability.

We should be thinking about how we could increase the number of government services available in post offices. Many people prefer to carry out transactions with the UK Government, devolved Administrations and local authorities online. Crucially, however, those who do not have the internet are the most vulnerable. Some 53% of people who have never used the internet have a disability. Around 37,000 people on low incomes in Scotland have never used the internet, while only 33% of adults over 65 have the internet in their home. These people need another option, and post offices are a clear choice: 43% of over-65s use a post office at least once a week, as well as 37% of people with disabilities and 31% of those in the D and E socio-economic groups.

It is also much more difficult for such people to move on to other ways of accessing services. The post office could act as a one-stop shop for people to sort out all these services in one go. Post offices are the natural home for local government services, and that approach could save money, improve public services and increase post offices’ footfall, although it would require co-ordinated work between local authorities and devolved Administrations. If the Government are so committed to making the Post Office the front line of Government, what is the Minister going to do to encourage councils and devolved Administrations to transfer their contracts over?

We should also look at widening the range of services provided by post offices. We were hugely disappointed that our plans for a people’s bank were abandoned in 2010. Post offices provide local access to cash and banking services, and that is particularly important in rural areas and areas such as those in my constituency with high numbers of elderly people. The potential of such services is not being realised. Post offices should have full access to all high street bank accounts, but some banks have not been forthcoming.

In the long term, the possibility of a state-backed bank at the post office should be explored. There is evidence that that could be of great benefit to the Post Office, as New Zealand Post has seen its profits surge by nearly 70% thanks to its financial services arm, Kiwibank. Such a bank could also be massively beneficial in combating payday loan companies and high-cost doorstep lending by being linked to credit unions and providing affordable credit directly to the communities that our post offices serve.

The post offices of our communities need to be saved. They provide vital services, the reduction of which is of great concern to workers and the vulnerable people who rely on their post office. Action on the idea of a front office for Government is lacking when we need it most, and there has been no initiative from this Government to widen the impact of post offices. We need action, and we need it fast if we want to save this national institution, rather than let it be sold off for a quick buck like Royal Mail.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

In calling Minister Jenny Willott to reply, may I put on record my congratulations to her, because I believe that this is the first time that she has spoken from the Dispatch Box? I welcome her.

17:06

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Jenny Willott)]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Having not been allowed to speak in this Chamber for two years as a Government Whip, it is a little surreal to be at the Dispatch Box.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Glasgow North West (John Robertson) on securing this debate on an important subject. Despite the lack of Members present, the issue comes up regularly, and on most occasions a significant number of Members want to discuss the critical role that post offices play in all our local communities. The post office is much more than just a commercial entity. As the hon. Gentleman has said, it is important to hundreds of thousands of small businesses, which rely on it every day, as well as to the millions of customers who use the network for a range of services. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that post offices are particularly crucial to elderly residents, those on low incomes and the disabled, who make particularly good use of them in our communities.

In November 2010, we announced a funding package of the historic amount of £1.34 billion to guarantee the size of the network until 2015 and to end the closure programmes run by the hon. Gentleman’s Government, which led to the closure of 7,000 branches under the previous Administration. In November 2013, we announced our continued support of the network with a further £640 million to secure and continue its modernisation until 2018. That makes clear the Government’s commitment to the post office and its future success. Contrary to what the hon. Gentleman has said, that recent investment is a vote of confidence in the post office network and it is helping to move it to a more sustainable and secure long-term future.

[Mr Weir]

I understand what the Minister is saying and I think we all appreciate the money going into the transformation programme, but many small sub-postmasters in my constituency are concerned because they feel that they are being pressurised by the Post Office to give up their businesses, take extra redundancy or move to a local model that they feel is unsustainable. That does not seem to be a sensible way to pressurise people who have run post offices successfully for many years.

[Jenny Willott]

I cannot comment on the operational procedures of the Post Office, which is a separate entity, but the Government are very clear that we want to maintain 11,500 branches in the post office network across the country. That means ensuring that we maintain a branch in all communities that currently have branches, and the level of knowledge and expertise that exist among many sub-postmasters, who are extremely well embedded in their communities and extremely well known and trusted by members of their local community. That is one of the elements that make the post office so important in many of our communities, especially in rural or more deprived areas, where many people depend heavily on the local sub-postmaster and the post office branch.

[Mr Weir]

I do not want to labour the point, but experienced postmasters are being encouraged to give up and businesses are going to a local shop, on the post office local model, that generally offers fewer services than existing post offices. I appreciate that the Minister has said that the Post Office is independent, but Government money—taxpayers’ money—is being used to achieve the changes.

[Jenny Willott]

We are trying to ensure that the post office network is sustainable into the future. We cannot subsidise at historical levels. The previous Government’s way to tackle the problem was just to close post office branches, with significant losses. There were many losses in my constituency, as I am sure there were in those of other hon. Members in the Chamber.

This Government have taken a different decision, which is to look at different models to ensure that we can maintain post office services in all communities across the country. Services delivered in particular communities may have to change to ensure that they are viable, but it is incredibly important that we have post office outreach in communities across the country, and that we do not see any repetition of the previous Labour Government’s closure programme.

[John Robertson]

The point that the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) and I are trying to make to the Government is that post offices supply a service to people who need that service. We do not need a downgrading of the existing service, but it appears likely that the Government’s project will downgrade post offices to such an extent that people will wonder what the point is of having them in the first place.

[Jenny Willott]

I could not disagree more with the hon. Gentleman. The vast majority of services available in post office branches across our communities will still be available. I cannot remember the exact figures—I hope that he will forgive me—but well over 90%, perhaps even 95%, of the services that people can currently access in their branches will still be available under the new models. There will still be every reason for people to carry on using their post offices, which will serve their communities in exactly the same way: the model will be slightly different, but they will provide just as vital a service to members of our communities as they currently do.

The £2 billion of funding that has now been approved by the Government will allow post offices to invest in transforming and modernising the network and helping to ensure the long-term sustainability that we all agree is absolutely critical. Despite what the hon. Gentleman said in his speech, the new models are attractive. I understand that he and the hon. Member for Angus (Mr Weir) both have concerns, but the models are attractive to those running post office branches. Some 2,500 sub-postmasters have already converted, or have signed contracts to convert, their branches to one of the new operating models. They have received investment to modernise and improve their branches, which will bring benefits not just to them in running their businesses, but to the consumers they serve and the communities in which they are based, including much longer operating hours, shorter queues and more attractive branch layouts.

[John Robertson]

I am sorry to interrupt the Minister again, but perhaps we can solve the whole problem. Why does she not come up to Glasgow and meet the same sub-postmasters that I have spoken to? Let me assure her that what she says is not what they are telling me. She can come and see for herself.

[Jenny Willott]

I have met the National Federation of SubPostmasters. I represent Cardiff Central, and I have spoken to my local sub-postmasters. I appreciate that this is clearly a period of change that will be very unnerving for many sub-postmasters, particularly for those who have to change how they operate their business, but a significant amount of investment is available for those who want to carry on and to sign contracts to change to a new form of business. They are getting a lot of support from the Government. Others might want to leave the network or to retire, including those who have run businesses for a long time, and there is support for them as well, but it is important to recognise that many sub-postmasters are happy to alter their properties and to change to the new model.

Customers are getting significant benefits from the new models. Across the network, there are an additional 34,000 opening hours a week, which is equivalent to 700 more traditional post offices. The programme of investment will see the modernisation and protection of all branches by 2018, ensuring that every community and customer that relies on access to a post office today will continue to have access to post office services in the future.

The Government have ensured that all sub-postmasters can benefit from the investment. For the first time, a dedicated fund has been set up for post office branches that are important to the communities they serve, but where one of the new models would not be viable. That is an issue in large, remote rural areas, such as those in Scotland, where the post office is often the last shop in the village, as it were. The community fund to ensure that those post offices are kept open is a real departure. It will protect those branches well into the future and ensure that people have access to post office services. That is particularly important in areas where the post office provides an important service to more vulnerable consumers.

[Mr Weir]

I thank the Minister for giving way yet again; I do not want to push my luck too far. I remember taking this matter up with the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) when she announced the fund. The fund is for doing work on the post office to make it better, but that is not the difficulty in many of these very small post offices. The difficulty is that the postmaster’s income is simply insufficient. Postmasters want to keep going, but there is nothing in the fund to give them an uplift in their income to help the post office survive. The fund is for physical changes to the post office, which is not the issue at most of the post offices we are discussing.

[Jenny Willott]

I will come on to talk about income and the services that we are supporting in post offices to ensure that they are viable.

The hon. Member for Glasgow North West spoke about Crown post offices. As he mentioned, the funding package that was set out in 2010 required the Post Office to eliminate its substantial losses. In 2012-13, £37 million of losses were incurred by the 373 branches that made up the Crown segment of the network. It is a key part of the Post Office’s strategy to make the network sustainable in the long term. The Government support the business in delivering that strategy. The current losses of the Crown network contribute a third of the losses incurred by the network as a whole. That is clearly unsustainable. No business, including the Post Office, can maintain a situation in which its high street branches cost substantially more to run than they bring in.

As part of its strategy to eliminate the unsustainable losses, the Post Office identified about 70 branches where there is no prospect of eliminating the losses at a local level under the current structure. In those locations, it is seeking a suitable retail partner to take on the operation of the branch under a franchise arrangement. The Post Office has made it clear that under each franchise proposal, the full range of current post office services, including the more complex transactions such as passport applications and identity services, will continue to be available in close proximity to the existing Crown branch. In the event that a suitable retail partner cannot be found, Post Office Ltd has given a commitment that a post office service will be retained in the area. I hope that what I have said reassures the hon. Gentleman that communities will not lose these vital local services.

[John Robertson]

The hon. Lady has not reassured me at all, I am afraid. Some of the Crown post offices that are closing are in areas where people simply cannot get about. There is no transport to get to where the new post office is because the bus services have been cut. How are those people supposed to get to the facilities that they need? They cannot go online because they do not have a computer and they cannot afford one.

[Jenny Willott]

The Post Office operates to the strict criteria that 90% of the population must live within a mile of a post office and 95% within three miles. Although there may be some changes to the exact buildings in which branches are provided, as I said, services including the more complex ones available at Crown branches will still be available in the area. We are maintaining the access criteria so that more than nine out of 10 people will live within a mile of a post office. We recognise that more vulnerable members of the community in particular will find it hard to travel longer distances to access services, so we are ensuring that they are maintained locally.

The investment that is being made is helping to ensure that an independent Post Office will remain a strong and long-term partner for Royal Mail—that is another issue that the hon. Gentleman raised. A transformed network will offer Royal Mail and the many companies, Government Departments and agencies with which the Post Office works better access to customers than ever before, which is crucial to winning new contracts and retaining existing ones.

The hon. Gentleman referred to the decision to separate the Post Office from Royal Mail. Far from being a mistake, it has allowed the Post Office to focus on its own priorities and needs. It is important to recognise that the two companies are very different. Royal Mail is a logistics company whose business is collecting, sorting and delivering mail. Although we can access Royal Mail services at post offices, the Post Office is different. In addition to mail services, it provides access to a wide range of government services, from pension and benefit payments to passport check and send services and Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency motoring services, all the way down to fishing rod licences. It also provides access to a wide range of financial services products, from savings accounts to mortgages, insurance and foreign exchange. It is now piloting a range of current accounts. Separation is allowing the Post Office to focus on its business and make the right decisions in the long-term interests of its staff, sub-postmasters and customers.

I recognise, as I think we all do, the importance of the Post Office’s relationship with Royal Mail. As the hon. Gentleman mentioned, prior to separation the two companies negotiated and signed a long-term commercial agreement. It was a 10-year agreement, the longest permissible at the time, and ensured that Royal Mail services would continue to be offered at post offices until 2020. That cemented the long-term relationship between the two businesses. As the post office network modernises and the parcels market continues to grow, the relationship will only get stronger. Indeed, Royal Mail’s chief executive has said that it is “unthinkable” that the two companies will not always have a close relationship. I am reassured that the relationship will be maintained long into the future.

It is important to remember that the relationship is equally important for both businesses. The Post Office benefits from a continuing commercial relationship with the largest postal operator in the UK, and Royal Mail benefits from exclusive access to the largest retail network in the UK and the millions of customers who use post offices every week.

Alongside its work for the Royal Mail, the Post Office is making good progress on its ambition to become a front office for government. As the hon. Gentleman pointed out—slightly dismissively, if I may say so—the Post Office has won every Government contract that it has bid for in the past two and a half years. That is a notable achievement that should not be underestimated. The contracts have been secured in highly competitive markets against fierce competition, and the Post Office’s success represents a vote of confidence in the business, in the Government’s funding and, more importantly, in the thousands of highly skilled postmasters and post office staff who deliver the services every day. That shows the regard in which they are held.

The contracts that have been won include the vital cross-government front office framework contract, which was led by the DVLA and won by the Post Office in 2012. It has extended the Post Office’s contract with the DVLA and broadened it into new areas. Because it is a framework contract, it also means that other Government agencies can contract more easily with the Post Office and deliver value for money to the taxpayer. The contract is already in use by Her Majesty’s Passport Office, which sees in it an opportunity to modernise the passport check and send service. With a stable and modernising network, the Post Office is well placed to build on those successes.

I hope that the hon. Gentleman and all other Members who are in the Chamber will support me in encouraging Government Departments and agencies, local government bodies and, as he said, the devolved Administrations to seek out new opportunities to work with the Post Office. That includes new and emerging digital and identity markets, but also counter services. As he has said, branch security is important to so many Post Office and Government customers.

The Post Office has shown time and again the benefits it can bring to the Government in driving value for money for the taxpayer and in improving the accessibility of Government services, including to vulnerable and disadvantaged groups across the UK. That has brought many benefits to the Post Office. Additional new work will be crucial in helping to ensure the network’s long-term future.

However, I want to be clear that, in accordance with EU procurement regulations, the Government cannot simply award contracts to the Post Office or, for that matter, to any other company. We must secure suppliers through an open and competitive tender process. That ensures fairness, drives innovation and delivers value for money for taxpayers, which is important in these times. That the Post Office is winning contracts in such circumstances shows that it meets those competitive criteria and does an excellent job.

There is more to the Post Office than mail and Government services—the hon. Gentleman highlighted that. The company has been growing well in new areas in recent years and is now one of the leading providers of financial and telephony services in the UK. Growth in the Post Office’s award-winning financial services business under this Government has made it one of the leading challengers to the high street banks. Post Office’s 3 million customers have deposited more than £17 billion in a variety of savings products. Customers rely on the Post Office for insuring their homes and holidays. It also helps them to get on or move up the property ladder with the range of mortgages it has available. Recently, the Post Office’s current account pilot was extended and is now available in more than 100 branches.

The Post Office acknowledges the important role its network plays in local communities. The business is already in conversation with the Association of British Credit Unions and the credit union sector to explore how they can work together to reach more families and give access to credit union services in more communities. I am sure hon. Members welcome that.

The Post Office remains committed to ensuring that communities continue to be able to access cash and banking services—the hon. Gentleman highlighted that important issue. Ninety-five per cent. of UK current accounts are available over the post office counter. With the support of the Government, the Post Office is continuing to work with the one remaining high street bank—Santander—that does not offer this service. Those services are important in ensuring local convenient access to cash, particularly, as he said, for the communities that have been left with no high street branch. Unfortunately, that is many of our communities in the UK.

In conclusion, I am confident that the hon. Gentleman can see that the Government believe strongly in the future of the Post Office and that we are working hard to ensure its future success. We are investing in modernising the network. Under this Government, the Post Office is flourishing. Customers are benefiting from longer opening hours at improved branches. The company is winning new contracts and providing its customers with an increased range of services. The Government are laying the foundations for the long-term, sustainable and successful future of the Post Office. Hon. Members agree that it is essential for our communities that the Post Office continues to thrive in the years to come.

Question put and agreed to.

17:28

House adjourned.

Ministerial Correction

Thursday 16th January 2014 Ministerial Corrections

Thursday 16 January 2014

Syria

Thursday 16th January 2014 Ministerial Corrections

The following is an extract from exchanges during the statement on Syria on 13 January 2014.

[Angus Robertson (Moray) (SNP)]

All diplomatic progress involving Iran and Syria is welcome, but the Foreign Secretary is right to highlight the fact that the situation involving refugees in Syria is calamitous. It is also right to support refugees in situ in neighbouring countries, but there are thousands of refugees who have made it to Europe. Germany has accepted 80% of pledged places among Syrian refugees. Amnesty International has described the attitude of countries, including the UK, towards Syrian refugees as “shameful”. Why does the UK have such a poor record in not accepting Syrian refugees?

[Mr Hague]

It is clear from what I have said that the UK has a strong record on the humanitarian side. Our donation, of £500 million so far, is the biggest ever in our history and one of the biggest in the world. We are the second most generous nation in the world in this regard, and we are trying to help people, as the hon. Gentleman says, in situ. On the question of refugees, last year between January and September, we accepted 1,100 Syrian refugees into the United Kingdom for asylum, treating them on their individual merits, as we do people from other nations. That fact is sometimes neglected and overlooked.

[Official Report, 13 January 2014, Vol. 573, c. 591.]

Letter of correction from William Hague:

An error has been identified in the response given on 13 January 2014.

The correct response should have been:

[Mr Hague]

It is clear from what I have said that the UK has a strong record on the humanitarian side. Our donation, of £500 million so far, is the biggest ever in our history and one of the biggest in the world. We are the second most generous nation in the world in this regard, and we are trying to help people, as the hon. Gentleman says, in situ. On the question of refugees, in the 12 months leading up to September last year, we accepted 1,100 Syrian refugees into the United Kingdom for asylum, treating them on their individual merits, as we do people from other nations. That fact is sometimes neglected and overlooked.

Petitions

Thursday 16th January 2014 Petitions

Thursday 16 January 2014

Gas and Electricity Bills

Thursday 16th January 2014 Petitions

The Petition of residents of Scunthorpe,

Declares that the Petitioners support gas and electricity bills being frozen.

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to introduce legislation that will freeze gas and electricity bills.

And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Nic Dakin, Official Report, 27 November 2013; Vol. 571, c. 375.]

[P001300]

The Petition of a resident of the UK,

Declares that under Prime Minister David Cameron gas and electricity bills have gone up by £300 for the average household and further that the Leader of the Opposition Ed Miliband will freeze gas and electricity bills until 2017.

The Petitioner therefore requests that the House of Commons supports Labour’s proposals to freeze energy bills.

And the Petitioner remains, etc.—[Presented by Tom Blenkinsop, Official Report, 27 November 2013; Vol. 571, c. 375.]

[P001301]

Observations from the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change:

The Government believe that the introduction of price controls, for example through a price freeze, would be likely to limit competition and could have a detrimental impact on the investment we need to deliver secure energy supplies. It could lead to suppliers increasing prices before the freeze comes in to protect themselves against unpredictable hikes in the price companies pay for energy on commodity markets during the period of the freeze.

We know rising energy prices are hitting many households hard at a difficult time. While the Government cannot control the price of energy in the global market, they can help bill payers by reducing the impact of social and environmental programmes on their bills. The Government have recently announced proposals that will allow energy companies to reduce the bills of British households by £50 on average, helping to reduce the impact of recent price rises. This builds on the help given to hard-working people through income tax cuts, the council tax freeze and the fuel duty freeze.

On 2 December the Government confirmed they will reduce the current cost of levies by:

Establishing a rebate saving the average customer £12 on their bill, for the next two years, worth a total of £600 million.

Reducing the cost of the Energy Company Obligation (ECO), an insulation scheme delivered by major energy suppliers. Companies have announced that this will result of savings of around £30-£35 off bills, on average, this year. The existing dedicated support in ECO for low income and vulnerable households will be maintained and extended from March 2015 until March 2017.

In addition, electricity distribution network companies are willing to take voluntary action to reduce network costs in 2014-15. This would allow a further one-off reduction of an average of around £5 on electricity bills, which energy suppliers will be able to pass on to their customers as well.

All of the major energy suppliers have announced how they will pass the benefits of this package to their customers. The value of the benefit will vary between companies, but, on average, this package, including VAT, will be worth around £50 to households, compared to what would have happened without these changes.

Consumer affordability is central to UK energy policy. The best way to achieve this is through an effective competitive market in energy that works in the interest of consumers.

We are reforming the retail energy market, making it simpler clearer and fairer; limiting the number of tariffs available, so that consumers are not faced with a bamboozling array of confusing tariffs. We are making sure that consumers are on the cheapest tariff with their supplier that is in line with their preferences with no one left behind on poor value out of date tariffs. Consumers will be provided with personalised information on the projected annual cost of their energy and will be told if their supplier has a tariff available which would be cheaper for them. These reforms of the retail market will put the power back into the hands of consumers, and help them to shop around for better deals. It will help the 84% that do not switch and could be missing out on savings of up to £158.

The Government have announced that Ofgem will undertake an annual review into the state of competition in the energy markets. This will also set out what reforms are underway to further enhance competition and any additional steps that should be taken. We recognise more needs to be done to understand the finances of the suppliers and ensure they are communicated transparently to build trust in the industry. So the Government have asked Ofgem to deliver a full report on the transparency of financial accounts of the largest energy companies and ways this could be improved.

In the meantime, we are seeing evidence that the Government’s measures to assist small suppliers enter the market and grow are working. In 2011 there were no independent suppliers with a customer base greater than 50,000 now we have three independents with over 100,000 customers and a further eight new companies have entered the market since May 2010.

We are also taking practical steps to help people with their bills this winter and beyond:

We are making sure the most vulnerable households get direct financial help from their supplier. The Warm Home Discount will help around 2 million households this year, including well over a million of the poorest pensioners who will receive £135 off their electricity bill.

We are helping people to use less energy by providing new ways to pay for and install energy saving home improvements through the Green Deal and Energy Company Obligation. The Government have recently announced new measures that will boost energy efficiency even further by introducing new schemes for home-movers, landlords and public sector buildings, worth £540 million over three years.

We have launched the Big Energy Saving Network of voluntary organisations and community groups which will help the most vulnerable get the best energy deal for them and access to available help.

Year round help is available from the Energy Saving Advice Service (ESAS), a phone service set up by the Government, on 0300 123 1234. ESAS provides advice on how to reduce bills and make homes more energy efficient. Details can also be found at www.direct.gov.uk/energyhelp.

Westminster Hall

Thursday 16th January 2014 Westminster Hall

Thursday 16 January 2014

[Mr Peter Bone in the Chair]

Crown Dependencies

Thursday 16th January 2014 Westminster Hall

13:30

[Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair)]

We begin today with a statement from the Chairman of the Select Committee on Justice on the publication of the Committee’s report “Crown Dependencies: Developments Since 2010”. We will be making parliamentary history today, as this is the first Select Committee statement in Westminster Hall, so it might be helpful if I explain briefly the procedure agreed by the House in December. Essentially, the pattern is the same as for a ministerial statement: Sir Alan will make his statement, during which no interventions may be taken; at the conclusion of his statement, I will call Members who rise to put questions to Sir Alan on the subject of his statement, and call Sir Alan to respond to them in turn. These interventions should be questions and should be brief. Front-Bench Members may take part in the questioning.

The Liaison Committee has the power to impose a time limit on a statement and the exchanges that follow, but has chosen not to do so. However, I anticipate that the statement and questions will last no longer than 20 minutes. I call the Chairman of the Justice Committee, who is also the Chair of the Liaison Committee, to make this first Select Committee statement in Westminster Hall.

13:31

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD) (Select Committee Statement)]

Thank you, Mr Bone. It is a pleasure to have you presiding over these proceedings, which as you say are a parliamentary first. It is one of three reasons why I am particularly pleased to be presenting the Justice Committee’s report “Crown Dependencies: Developments Since 2010”. I am also pleased to be doing it because the nature of the historically fruitful and evolving relationship between the UK and the Crown dependencies is not always understood, even in some Departments, and we can shed light on it. The Isle of Man, Jersey and the Bailiwick of Guernsey, including Alderney and Sark, have a unique status, which we describe. Thirdly, it is a good thing for Select Committees not merely to publish reports but to look back on and evaluate their results. In this case, we think that we can report a success story on the implementation of our 2010 report.

In order to review our 2010 report, during the course of this year Committee members visited the Isle of Man, Jersey and the Bailiwick of Guernsey, including Sark. Although fog stopped us from landing in Alderney, we had a telephone conference with representatives there. We took oral evidence from the then Minister, the noble Lord McNally, and received written evidence. We are indebted to our then second Clerk, who has just moved on to become Clerk of the Public Accounts Committee, for her excellent work throughout the inquiry, and to all the Committee staff.

The report we are publishing today goes point by point through all the recommendations we made in 2010 and shows how in almost every case, they have been successfully implemented by the Minister, Lord McNally, and the very small team of civil servants led by Cathryn Hannah. Much credit is due to them for what they have done, and that view was expressed to us in all the dependencies.

To give the House a few examples, we argued that if the Ministry of Justice concentrated on those things for which it had constitutional or international responsibilities and relied more widely on the preparatory work done by the Crown law offices in each of the dependencies, delays could be avoided and island legislation could achieve Royal Assent more quickly. That has been done successfully. Secondly, we argued that the Ministry of Justice should encourage closer co-operation, better understanding and timely consultation between Whitehall Departments and their counterparts in the dependencies. There have been significant improvements as a result of the Ministry of Justice’s efforts to implement that recommendation, although there are still some examples of where policy changes with a significant impact on the islands could have been the subject of more timely consultation.

The only area where the Government disagreed with us was in respect of our view that when the UK takes part in international negotiations, such as those following the Icelandic banking crisis, and there are differences between the UK’s view and the dependencies’, there should be a clearer mechanism for ensuring that the dependencies’ case can be put in the negotiations. We still think that ways can be found to do that without undermining the UK’s position or the constitutional relationship.

We also argued that the UK should exercise its power to intervene on grounds of a breakdown in good government only in the most serious circumstances. The dependencies are mature democratic societies with the rule of law and free media. Problems, whether real or perceived, can arise from the relatively small size of the jurisdictions, but they can be dealt with by bringing in, for example, judges, lawyers or police officers from outside the jurisdiction to demonstrate independence. We are satisfied that both the island authorities and the UK Government have adequate means of assessing whether that may be required in particular instances.

We received submissions from some dependency residents who felt that their grievances had not been satisfactorily dealt with and that that constituted grounds for UK Government intervention on grounds of good government. Our view was that the legal and other processes of the dependencies were the appropriate mechanism for seeking resolution, and that the UK Government had adequate means of assessing whether any of those grievances raised good government issues.

The situation in Sark is one that we said in 2010 required a watching brief on the part of the UK Government. That responsibility has been carefully exercised by the Minister, with help being given to the island’s Chief Pleas, which is both its Parliament and its Government, to strengthen the administration and consider how best to secure the economic future of the community. Tension and hostility between the Barclay brothers, those who manage their investments on the island and the community’s elected representatives, is a problem and a distraction. We wish the newly appointed administrator well in her role.

We saw no reason and heard little support for any fundamental change in the constitutional relationship between the UK and the Crown dependencies. We can see areas for improvement, such as a more rapid process for extending trade treaties, which the dependencies need, but I emphasise most the need to maintain and build on the work that Lord McNally and his officials did in response to our report. He has now stepped down from his ministerial post and there will be changes in the civil service team. We hope that Lord McNally’s successor in the role, Lord Faulks, will carry on the work in the same spirit and with the same commitment. I commend the report to the House.

[Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair)]

We will now take questions on the statement.

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that two points came across clearly in most of our meetings in the Channel Islands? First, the lines of communication must always be kept completely open between their legislatures and this place in order to streamline legislation. Secondly—I am sure that he is pleased—the Ministry of Justice is now exploring the greater use of letters of entrustment enabling the Crown dependencies to conclude some international agreements themselves.

[Sir Alan Beith]

I very much welcome the help that I had from the right hon. Gentleman in working on this report and the particular perspective that he brought to it. He is entirely right, and he makes a point that I did not have time to make in my statement. Letters of entrustment are one indication in the Government’s response that they are willing to enable the islands to reach international agreements that fit within the framework of their responsibilities. It is a necessary process, because the islands have trading links around the world. Given that so many of the United Kingdom’s trading links are now through the European Union, of which the islands are not members, it is often necessary for new treaties to be put together and agreed, and letters of entrustment are a way to achieve that.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Can my right hon. Friend confirm that the Crown dependencies are not members of the European Union, and therefore clarify their relationship, in justice matters, with the Europe convention on human rights and the European Court of Justice?

[Sir Alan Beith]

I can indeed confirm that they are not members of the European Union. That is a decision that each has made separately. It is quite a complicated situation in some ways, because so many of their links are with the United Kingdom, which is in the EU. They are signatories to the European convention on human rights and subject to it. One of the United Kingdom Government’s responsibilities is to ensure that the treaties are complied with. In the case of Sark, of course, that led to significant constitutional changes that derived from responsibilities under the European convention on human rights.

[Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) and his Committee on the publication of this report. It is important to ensure full recognition and understanding of the Crown dependencies and how what we in Parliament do affects them. I know that they will be delighted that the Committee has highlighted some important points in its report.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the word “dependency” no longer reflects what the Crown dependencies are? They are not dependent in the sense that Britain subsidises or props them up in any way; on the contrary, the financial centres, especially Jersey, Guernsey and Isle of Man, provide benefits to the United Kingdom in many ways, particularly via the City of London. Is “dependency” the correct word for the Crown dependencies, or should we think of a name that is more appropriate to modern circumstances and their contribution to the overall British family?

[Sir Alan Beith]

That is an interesting point, which the Committee did not consider. The hon. Gentleman takes a close interest in the affairs of the Crown dependencies. The term “Crown dependency” is an important way of distinguishing the territories I have described and the United Kingdom’s overseas territories, with which they should not be confused. The constitutional relationship is different and in every case they have a high level of compliance with international, financial and other regulations, which they are keen to emphasise. The Crown dependency territories are a distinct group with a special relationship to the Crown. Any regular traveller to any dependency will know that loyalty and that link to the Crown runs strongly in all of them.

[Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)]

For the past three years, I have been an adviser to the Isle of Man law firm, Cains. Referring to a point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell), I want to put on the record the fact that there is terrific cross-fertilisation between the Crown dependencies and particularly the City of London. A huge amount of trade from China, India and so on would not come to this country if it did not come via our Crown dependencies.

I know that the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) takes a great interest in these matters. It is fair to say that Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man submit themselves to the highest level of regulation—higher than in many EU states—so we can be confident that the money that comes via the Crown dependencies to the City of London is of the highest quality.

[Sir Alan Beith]

The hon. Gentleman is rightly representing his constituency and the City of London by emphasising the fact that significant benefit arises from investment via the City from the Crown dependencies and that that brings in money from many parts of the world. Clearly, from time to time, issues arise that have to be resolved in discussion between the UK and dependency Governments, and sometimes statements are made that do not accurately reflect the islands’ degree of conformity with international and other regulation. In all these things, as the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) indicated, communication is important and necessary.

[Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair)]

I apologise for not saying earlier that we have an advantage in Westminster Hall in that if any hon. Member wants a second go, they may do so.

[Mr Hollobone]

I am grateful for the chance to remind the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) that, although he gave a good answer to the first part of my question, it was so detailed that he forgot the answer to the second part about the relationship between the Crown dependencies and the European Court of Justice.

[Sir Alan Beith]

I would need notice before giving a definitive legal answer, on which I would probably have to take expensive legal advice from people such as the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field). However, because the dependencies engage in significant trade with the European Union, they may sometimes come up against issues that have been subject to litigation in the European Court of Justice. To facilitate relations with the EU generally, the dependencies have been opening offices in Brussels, which by general consent has helped. If the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) needs to know more about the potential of the European Court of Justice to be involved in their affairs, I would have to look further.

[Andrew Rosindell]

Does the right hon. Gentleman believe that the UK is properly looking after the interests of the Crown dependencies internationally, bearing in mind that no one in this House has been elected to represent them? There is no formal Committee, apart from the Select Committee, that deals with them. Internationally, they are not part of the European Union—some would say that they are fortunate to be outside the EU—and they are not part of the Commonwealth. They probably have more long-standing connections with Britain than anywhere in the Commonwealth, yet they have no status of their own and are not allowed to join the Commonwealth, even as associate members.

Does the right hon. Gentleman share my concern that UK Ministers, not only in the Foreign Office but in other Departments, often forget the interests of our Crown dependencies? Indeed, when my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) became Secretary of State for Justice and I spoke in the House about the Crown dependencies, he had no idea they came under his Department at that time. It came as a surprise to him that they had been included in his Department’s remit. Is the right hon. Gentleman really satisfied that the UK Government fully understand their obligations to those loyal subjects of the Crown dependencies?

[Sir Alan Beith]

My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) made the wise decision to appoint Lord McNally to take responsibility within the Department. Our report and the evidence we have seen are powerful testimony to the fact that that job was done well. We found a higher level of respect for the Ministry than we found in 2010, when we first engaged in this process.

Internationally, in general, two things happen: the UK Government represent the interests of the dependencies, and in many matters enable them to represent themselves by letters of entrustment and other processes. We indicate in our report that when there is real conflict of interest, there could be better ways of ensuring that the islands’ views are properly included.

Significant changes in the constitutional relationship—I suppose the ability to join the Commonwealth might be considered part of that—should be mooted only after careful consultation, and probably at the request of the dependencies themselves. We have an evolving but rather well balanced constitutional relationship. The Committee’s view, which is fairly widespread among people in the dependencies who study these matters, is that we treat that constitutional relationship with care and do our best to make it work effectively, but there is always scope for improvement.

[Mark Field]

May I assure my hon. Friend the Member for Romford that I know from my dealings with the First Ministers of both Guernsey and the Isle of Man that the Crown dependencies believe that they are better looked after under the Ministry of Justice than they would be as just a small state within the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s ambit? It is to the great credit of the Select Committee that the report recognises the breadth of areas that need to be discussed.

May I put on the record the fact that, although we recognise that the Crown dependencies have a strong name for financial services, that is by no means all they do? That applies particularly to the Isle of Man, which believes that it is important that in the context of its location it embeds itself with the north-west. Its representatives have met many Members of Parliament for the north-west, particularly Opposition Members, and believe that that is a fruitful relationship to ensure that the Isle of Man is not regarded as just a tax haven, but as having a significant economy in its own right in a variety of areas.

[Sir Alan Beith]

The hon. Gentleman enables me to make two points about the Isle of Man. First, it has a significant high-technology, space-related engineering industry, which is a significant part of its economy. Secondly, like other Crown dependencies, it has offered assistance both in the Commonwealth and to other dependencies, most recently to the Turks and Caicos Islands. That illustrates the international presence of the dependencies, which is extremely beneficial.

[Andrew Rosindell]

Referring back to the right hon. Gentleman’s comments a moment ago about membership of the Commonwealth, as a point of information, he may be aware that the Crown dependencies submitted to the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs their interest in being members of the Commonwealth, under that Committee’s report of the year before last. Perhaps his Committee could look at that at a later date.

Finally, are the right hon. Gentleman and his Committee satisfied that the Crown dependencies are fully included, in the sense that there are ceremonial and British traditions from which they currently seem to be excluded? I give the example of the Remembrance Sunday parade and service in Whitehall. The Crown dependencies are still, to this day, denied the right to lay a wreath alongside other members of the Commonwealth. Not only that, but there is the importance of ensuring that the flags of the Crown dependencies are flown for state occasions such as trooping the colour and other special events. Does he agree that it is important that the Crown dependencies are always considered in all such important occasions, and particularly state occasions?

[Sir Alan Beith]

I gave the hon. Gentleman a guarded answer earlier, because both of the points he mentioned are not matters that the Committee considered. Speaking personally, however, I have a great deal of sympathy for what he said, not least in relation to remembering what happened in the second world war. All the dependencies, but especially the Channel Islands, have every reason to remember—they remember with gratitude, of course, their eventual liberation—and we in the United Kingdom have every reason to be reminded, as we have been by a lot of television coverage in the past year, of the dreadful experiences that the islanders went through at the time. It is something that we should not forget.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

I did not want to miss the opportunity to speak, lest my silence be taken as support for the Crown dependencies. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, I have just joined the Committee—the Labour Whips have been so careful not to overburden me for the past 17 years that I have not served on any Committee. Some of us retain concerns about the use of the dependencies as tax havens and may well wish to return to the matter at a later date.

[Sir Alan Beith]

That sounds like an ominous warning from a new member of my Committee. However, should the Committee in a future Parliament return to the matter to monitor progress, as we recommend they should, the hon. Gentleman will have the opportunity to visit the islands and to question officials of the islands and others in the financial services industry there. He will be able to satisfy himself fully on how the islands seek to manage and regulate the very considerable financial services that are administered from them.

[Mr Peter Bone (in the Chair)]

Thank you. Right hon. and hon. Members have set a very good example with the first Select Committee statement in Westminster Hall. We now move on to a debate on two reports from the Justice Committee—“Women Offenders: after the Corston Report” and “Older Prisoners”. It will be a single, combined debate on the two reports. That has been done before, but it is also somewhat unusual.

Women Offenders and Older Prisoners

Thursday 16th January 2014 Westminster Hall

[Relevant documents: Second Report from the Justice Committee, Women Offenders: after the Corston Report, HC 92 and the Government response, Female Offenders, Cm 8729; and Fifth Report from the Justice Committee, Older Prisoners, HC 89, and the Government response, Cm 8739.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting be now adjourned.—(Amber Rudd.)

13:53

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

I rise rather apologetically to my feet again, but taking the two reports together at least spares the Chamber a third speech from me this afternoon. I shall present the two reports in this speech. I do so with a heavy heart in one sense, because one or two Members who would have spoken in the debate are not able to do so, as they are at the funeral of our late colleague, Paul Goggins. He took such a close interest in criminal justice and had so much experience of it that I regularly tried to persuade him to join the Justice Committee, but he was already committed in a number of other ways, including as a member of the Intelligence and Security Committee. Our Committee missed out on having the benefit of his considerable wisdom, which we would have greatly appreciated.

This debate is on two reports that we produced this Session on groups of people who are minorities in the criminal justice system, but whose circumstances and needs place particular demands on that system, which is really geared towards dealing with young men. We wanted to examine the extent to which policy and practice are responding effectively to the needs of women offenders and older prisoners.

Older prisoners are the fastest growing group in the prison population, and our inquiry focused primarily, but not exclusively, on their treatment in prison. In our inquiry on women offenders, we looked at provision in the custodial state, where there are 3,845 women in a total prison population of 84,000, and more widely, including community provision for offenders and ex-offenders, and for women and girls at risk of offending. The Minister, whom we are glad to have here, will respond to the debate and cover both subjects. I shall return later to ministerial responsibility, particularly for women offenders, because that has been an issue.

All this goes back to 2006, when Baroness Corston was commissioned by the Home Office to examine what could be done to avoid women with particular vulnerabilities ending up in prison. That was prompted by the death of six women in Styal prison. Her report, published the following year, identified three categories of vulnerabilities for women: those relating to domestic circumstances and problems, such as domestic violence, child care issues and being a single parent; those relating to personal circumstances, such as mental illness, low self-esteem, eating disorders and substance misuse; and socio-economic factors such as poverty, isolation and employment.

The Corston report made 43 recommendations. I shall not go through all of them, but they included improvements to the way in which the issue was dealt with at Government level, the reservation of custodial sentences and remand for serious and violent women offenders, and the use of small local custodial centres within 10 years. They also included improvements to prison conditions, making community sentences the norm, and improvements in health services and support for women offenders. The then Government accepted 41 of the 43 recommendations.

There is much common ground on policy on women offenders. There appears to be fairly wide, although not universal, agreement that the majority of women offenders pose a limited risk, or no risk at all, to public safety, and that imprisonment is frequently an ineffective response. That is not about treating women more favourably or implying that they are less culpable, but about how to respond appropriately to the kinds of problems that women bring to the criminal justice system, and about what action is required to be effective in addressing their offending behaviour. In many cases, that is different from what is required to achieve the same thing in men.

It should be recognised that important progress has been made on the Corston recommendations. As has been illustrated by reports from the Howard League, the Prison Reform Trust, the prison and probation inspectorates and the all-party parliamentary group on women in the penal system, that includes better prison regimes, the ending of strip searching, reduction of self-harm, the establishment of a network of women’s centres, and acknowledging the need for differential treatment. However, levels of imprisonment for non-violent female offenders remain high, as do levels of self-harm by women. A study published before Christmas showed that there is still 10 times more self-harm among women prisoners than among their male counterparts.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

I wonder on what basis the right hon. Gentleman claims that the majority of women offenders in prison are either not violent or not dangerous. Let me give a snapshot of the prison population. There are 3,477 women in prison, and murder, manslaughter, other violence against the person, sexual offences, robbery, burglary, arson, blackmail and kidnapping account for half the female prison population. Which of those categories is he saying is not a serious offence and involves people who are not dangerous to the public?

[Sir Alan Beith]

I chose my words carefully. I said not that women were put in prison for offences that were not serious—courts would normally regard either the offence or the fact that they are repeat offences as a serious matter, underlining their decision to give a custodial sentence—but that many of the women, if they were not in prison and were otherwise effectively supervised, would not constitute a danger to the public. That is not true of them all, which is why there will always be some women in prison, some for very long periods, but those numbers will be relatively small.

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

In support of what the right hon. Gentleman says, in the 12 months to June 2012, 81% of women entering custody and starting a sentence had committed non-violent offences, compared with 71% of men.

[Sir Alan Beith]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a very good point and gives highly relevant figures.

In 2012, we decided to undertake an inquiry to review progress since the Corston report and to examine current strategy and practice. We held five oral evidence sessions. We visited prisons and women’s centres. We received more than 60 pieces of written evidence. We reported in July 2013, and the Government published their response in October. We visited HMP Styal, where the six deaths that prompted the Corston report had occurred, but in the inspection report on the prison published two years ago, Her Majesty’s chief inspector of prisons commented that it was

“disappointing to find, and to be told of by the governor, too many cases of women, some of whom were clearly mentally ill, serving very short prison sentences which served little purpose except to further disrupt sometimes already chaotic lives.”

During our visit, we saw a new unit that has been created in an effort better to meet the needs of these women, but questions were raised by our witnesses about why women with such complex needs continue to be sentenced to custody. However, those of us who visited Styal saw some genuinely good work going on there. Styal has featured so much in this history that I would not want the impression to be given that there is not some very good work indeed taking place there.

The fact that we were holding an inquiry at all seemed to stimulate the Government to take a number of positive steps to prioritise the requirements of female offenders. After we had announced the inquiry, the Government allocated ministerial responsibility for female offenders to the then Minister in the Department and former member of our Committee, the hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant). They announced a review of the female custodial estate, published a statement of four high-level strategic priorities, and created an advisory board to oversee the work streams stemming from those priorities.

Our report was very wide ranging, and I cannot pick up all the threads, but let me start with the overall governance of these issues. We said in the report:

“It is regrettable that the Coalition Government appears not to have learnt from the experience of its predecessor that strong ministerial leadership across departmental boundaries is essential to continue to make progress, with the result that in its first two years there was a hiatus in efforts to make headway on implementing the important recommendations made by Baroness Corston”.

We in the Committee were particularly struck by Baroness Corston’s own evidence that under the previous Government it was not until a group of women Ministers worked together to take issues forward that that Government made significant progress in this area. We welcome the fact that the hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald was appointed, but of course she has now moved to another ministerial position. I hope that this Minister will clarify, when he responds to the debate, just how overall leadership will be achieved in this area.

We say in our report:

“We welcome the production of a set of strategic priorities for women offenders but they need to be given substance”.

In the Government response, we were told that there would be further progress towards meeting the strategic objectives, and that there would be a report to Parliament on that in March this year, so we are getting quite close to that.

We say in our report:

“We do not consider that substantive changes to the…sentencing framework would be helpful…and recommend that emphasis is placed on ensuring a greater consistency of provision to the courts to enable them to sentence from a range of options specifically appropriate to women, including robust alternatives to custody.”

We say:

“We welcome the Sentencing Council’s inclusion of primary child caring responsibilities as a mitigating factor in sentencing guidelines”.

However, more than half the women sentenced to custody still receive short sentences. There appear to be several explanations for that: the absence of adequate and available community provision, the court perhaps not knowing whether there was adequate provision locally, or the court not being confident that the community provision was appropriate or acceptable to wider public opinion by being sufficiently robust. We were concerned that the agenda on that had not progressed sufficiently quickly.

We questioned women offenders and ex-offenders—they came before the Committee—who made it clear to us that they had preferred prison to community sentences. In at least one case, they had committed further offences because prison was easier than a community sentence that challenged them to change their life and also, of course, offered some support to enable them to do so.

Our report says:

“Women’s community projects are central to providing a distinct approach to the treatment of women offenders. They offer a challenging environment for women to serve their sentence as well as a broad range of practical and emotional support”.

Those projects, often delivered through women’s centres, offer a range of services and courses of the kind that Corston recommended: a punishment element; probation; community payback; addressing offending behaviour; anger management; domestic violence; drug awareness; supporting women who have offended, including in relation to housing and issues with children; parenting courses; social services; and a crèche.

A woman who attended Eden House in Bristol said to us in evidence:

“The sort of women coming here, if they went to prison they would only get a couple of weeks, or a six month sentence and serve half. That’s not enough time to make a difference. They just carry on as they did before. But with Eden House, you get structure, a variety of things to do, and the help and support of staff. These are all things you don’t get inside”.

We found evidence such as that very persuasive.

A lot of data have been collected by the National Offender Management Service in the past year about women who have been referred to women’s community services. Those data will be analysed, I think, this summer, and we look forward to seeing the results.

We say in our report:

“We are unconvinced about the extent to which the approach set out in the Government’s strategic priorities for women offenders is…integrated”

across Government and across Departments. We wanted the advisory board to

“map the confusing array of Government initiatives that”,

if brought together,

“have the potential to benefit vulnerable women and girls at risk of offending and specify how these should integrate with the strategy for women offenders.”

We drew attention to the fact that successful women’s centres were ensuring that some women on the periphery of the criminal justice system were being diverted away from crime, to the benefit of the community.

We note the inclusion in the Offender Rehabilitation Bill of the requirement for arrangements for supervision or rehabilitation to identify how they meet the needs of female offenders. The Government say in their response to us that they have produced guidance for new providers on gender-specific services, and that contractual arrangements are in place to ensure that those needs are met. We very much welcome that.

We made recommendations about the custodial estate. We are to conduct a more general inquiry into the prison estate, and we will look further at the provision for women offenders when we do that.

NOMS’ stocktake of women’s community provision was very positive in tone and concluded that

“services for female offenders for 2013-14 have been strengthened and that there will be greater access to gender specific services across the country.”

I am not sure that the picture painted by our witnesses was quite as positive as that. In any case, a stocktake looks at what is there, not at what is missing and still needed. A further analysis may be required to establish an evidence-based approach to the issue.

In general, the Government’s response to our report was thorough and constructive and set out clearly how our concerns could be addressed. The key question remains how real leadership will be provided—across Government, not just in the Ministry of Justice—to maintain momentum and put in place a range of services and interventions that can change the lives of women and girls who offend. Our constituents will benefit if, instead of paying the bills for the punishment of offences committed by women, we greatly reduce the number of those offences and offenders.

I want to talk about older prisoners, because this group is growing in the prison population and seems likely to continue to grow. It was no part of our report to argue that these are not people who should be in prison. It is very obvious, from what we know about the reasons for that growth, that for very many if not all of these people, there are very strong reasons to keep them in custody. I am referring to people with a record of violent offences.

However, older prisoners are and will continue to be a growing group. This population is added to, of course, by prosecutions in relation to historical sex offences. Older prisoners present a real challenge to the Prison Service. Some prisons are making substantial efforts to adapt their facilities to meet the needs of older prisoners, but of course for some prisons that is almost impossible because of the nature of their buildings. They may be multi-storey buildings. There may be a cell in which two beds cannot be put, but there are two prisoners, neither of whom can climb into an upper bunk. Physically, the facilities may not be suitable.

We thought that NOMS needed to ensure that all prisons have a policy that provides age-specific regimes. More prisons should establish day centres and regimes that provide for the needs of older prisoners, without necessarily segregating them entirely. We found problems with older prisoners’ access to health care services. We found, as in other areas of prison life, a large unmet need in relation to mental health and that there should be more consistent awareness training for prison officers about that.

We wanted prison and community health care IT systems to be better connected to minimise disruption. There was one really serious problem, which the Government have tried to address: the lack of provision for essential social care for older prisoners, and confusion about who should be providing it. We had a situation in which it was not clear whether a prisoner with acute social care needs was the responsibility of the authority from which they came, if that could be identified, or the authority in which the prison was located. The Government have dealt with that in clause 75 of the Care Bill, but we still need clarification on what happens to local authorities with a large prison population, because meeting that requirement will place considerable demands on their social work provision. Some places, such as the Isle of Wight, have gone some way to recognising that, but they will have total responsibility in this area under the new legislation.

We want good liaison with local authority social care teams. In the Isle of Wight, we saw that there had been good experiences as a result of placing social workers in prisons. That is not a luxury; serious problems can result from prisoners with serious personal care needs and limitations becoming excessively dependent on either prison officers—who have other responsibilities to carry out—or other prisoners. That is a dangerous situation in a prison.

We also looked at issues that arise when prisoners are terminally ill. We found that perhaps too little discretion had been given to experienced officers over when handcuffs might reasonably be removed from a terminally ill prisoner in a hospital bed, or when a governor, with the Minister’s approval, might grant release to a palliative care unit when no such facility existed in a prison.

We found problems with resettlement. Many long-term prisoners will be released at some point, and by the time they are released, they may have no contact with their home at all. The nature of their offence may have led to a complete break with their family. Where should they be placed if they are not to be at risk of committing further offences? We have asked the Government to do further work on a number of aspects of that problem. It was alarming to find that older prisoners were still being released to no fixed abode, which is neither acceptable nor in the interests of public safety and the community. The growth of the older prisoner population suggests to us that there ought to be a national strategy, but the Government did not accept that recommendation.

The Government response generally engages seriously with each of our recommendations, however. The Government agree that a formal analysis should be undertaken of prison accommodation to assess its suitability, and they have committed to doing that by the end of the year. They have committed to adapt prison regimes, and serious consideration is being given to improving health care. There is an acceptance of minimum social care needs and the care passport system. However, the response does not address the real concern about how local authorities will deal with large numbers of older prisoners for whom they acquire social work responsibility. The statement:

“It will be for each local authority to consider how best to meet need within a prison, and the role that social workers will play”

does not really tell us anything at all. In relation to the use of restraints, the response states:

“NOMS’ escorts policy is currently under review”.

The response on meeting accommodation needs on release does not promise a lot either. The outright rejection of the recommendation to introduce a national strategy on the grounds that it is “not possible to generalise” about the needs of older prisoners ignores the fact that there are common problem factors among most groups of older prisoners, as we saw when we visited several prisons. A strategy that worked its way through the prison system might be of considerable benefit, not only in managing prisoners more effectively but in making the prison system work more effectively. I commend our report to the House, and recommend that for both reports, hon. Members look carefully also at the Government response.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

With regard to the report on older prisoners, I understand that the Committee considered only prisons, not detention centres. I raise that because of a case in my constituency that the prisons inspector reported today involving a gentleman with dementia who was released within hours of his death, and who died with handcuffs on. Is there a prospect of the Committee wanting to look at detention centres, in view of the lessons learned from the previous study?

[Sir Alan Beith]

I had concluded my remarks, but I will pretend that I had not done so in order to answer the hon. Gentleman. Although the chief inspector of prisons quite rightly inspects detention centres—I am glad that he does—it is a Home Office responsibility, which means that the Home Affairs Committee ought to look at the matter. He is quite right to draw attention to some of the serious issues that the chief inspector has raised, which many hon. Members heard him speak about on the radio this morning. We see the chief inspector regularly about his prison work, which we very much respect.

14:15

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

The first report to which the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) comprehensively referred surveyed the provision for female offenders within the system in England and Wales, with the particular aim of finding out what had happened since the landmark report by Baroness Corston in March 2007. By and large, the Justice Committee was disappointed to learn that the Government were still not investing enough resources in tackling the causes of female offending, as opposed to helping women already involved in the system. The Government have made progress in several areas, but the Committee warned that

“there is little to signal a radical shift in thinking”

about what generating a whole-system approach actually meant for tackling female offending.

As the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed has said, since the inquiry was announced the Government have appointed a ministerial champion for women in the criminal justice system, announced a review of the female custodial estate and published their priorities for women offenders. That is all to the good, except that we are now suffering a hiatus because the former member of our Committee who held that post of ministerial champion has moved on. I have no doubt that the current Minister will respond in due course to the points that the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed has made. I say in passing that the Minister must have been a very bad man in a past life, considering all the briefs that he has had to deal with this week. I am pleased to see him in his place.

There is a fear that progress may be undermined by the reforms—here we go again—to offender management and rehabilitation in the Offender Rehabilitation Bill, which is currently passing through Parliament. In the debate on Report on Tuesday evening, we had a short debate about Government amendment 7, which introduced the need to comply with the Equality Act 2010 and the need for the Secretary of State to identify anything in the arrangements that was intended to meet the particular needs of female offenders. As I said on Tuesday evening, I think that is all to the good. That triggered a response from the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) that stunned the Chamber into complete silence. He said, in effect, that he thought women were treated more leniently in the system than men.

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will make his own speech, and we will listen intently to what he has to say, but I have to tell him that there is little support for what he says. He seems to have missed an important point, namely, that sentencing a woman to custody has profound consequences that may not arise in cases involving men. There are questions about housing and care for children; there is the possibility of children being taken into care; and, overall, a huge wave of anguish surrounds such families. It should be noted that those additional and serious consequences will present even when a woman is given a very short sentence. As the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed has said, often that is the case, but the damage is still done.

I believe that we must treat women differently for those and other reasons. That was the basic ratonale for our research and report. We are seeking not necessarily the soft option but the appropriate option, which I for one would like to see implemented. I am sure that there are ways of doing it, and if we concentrate on the special problems that arise when women are sentenced to custody, I am sure that we will be able to improve the situation drastically.

I am not going to deal with the whole report, obviously, but I would like to highlight one or two issues arising from it. On trends in women’s offending and sentencing, the Committee agreed that women required a distinct approach from those who engaged with them in the criminal justice system. As I have said, we found that women tended to be the subject of shorter community orders and were less likely to be sentenced to custody than men. In 2011, 3% of females were sentenced to immediate custody, compared to 10% of males. That is partly to do with the types of offence commonly committed by women. Our report states:

“In the 12 months to June 2012, 81% of women entering custody under sentence had committed non-violent offences, compared with 71% of men.”

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

I have here figures from the Ministry of Justice that were provided in a written answer to a parliamentary question I asked, so I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will accept them. Does he accept that for every single category of offence, a man is more likely than a women to be sent to prison? The figures on that point are laid out starkly by the Ministry of Justice.

[Mr Llwyd]

If the official figures show that, I am not in a position to argue with the hon. Gentleman, but does he accept that 81% of women entering custody under sentence have committed non-violent offences and are therefore not a danger to the community? Perhaps he will address that when he makes his speech.

[Philip Davies]

I will.

[Mr Llwyd]

Okay. Our report goes on to state that

“over half (52%) of women sentenced had committed petty offences”—

relatively petty—

“related to theft and the handling of stolen goods, compared with one-third (33%) of men. In addition, over a quarter (26%) of women sentenced to imprisonment had no previous convictions, more than double the figure for men (12%).”

The Select Committee agreed that the majority of women offenders posed very little risk to public safety and that imprisonment was usually an ineffective response. After all, women have a very different experience of custody from men. Unfortunately, in their response to our report, the Government said:

“there should be one justice system for all offenders who commit crimes.”

The Government would do well to recognise that one size does not fit all when it comes to tackling offending.

Since 2008, the gender-specific standards in custody have provided gender-specific programmes, recognising the fact that female offenders’ needs are usually very different from male offenders’ needs. For example, female offenders are more than twice as likely as their male counterparts to suffer from anxiety and depression and are more likely to report having used class A drugs in the four weeks prior to custody. Female offenders are also more likely to have suffered abuse in childhood or in their adult lives.

Our inquiry found that the Government’s gender equality duty had not been implemented robustly enough and was not persuading enough commissioners to provide gender-specific services for women offenders. In their response to the report, the Government conceded that there were problems with the public sector equality duty.

The Government also refer to female offenders in their document, “Transforming Rehabilitation.” I was glad that they amended the Offender Rehabilitation Bill on Tuesday, but, as a member of the Justice Committee and a barrister of some years’ experience, I still have serious concerns about the potential effect of the proposals on provisions for female offenders, or the lack of them in future. I believe it is more likely than not that the private companies that win the contracts for supervising the under-12-month cohort will have little interest in investing time and resources in rehabilitative programmes, but we will wait and see, as no one has a definitive answer on that yet.

[Sir Alan Beith]

The right hon. Gentleman is making an important point. Does he agree that in some of the women’s centres we saw really innovative work by the voluntary sector? If companies and consortia want to succeed in reducing reoffending, they must make good use of the kind of skill and level of care that we saw working to such effect in Liverpool, Birmingham and Belfast.

[Mr Llwyd]

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct. Quite honestly, the work in some of the centres was so good that it was astonishing. I well remember the visit to Liverpool—I have had some contact with the manager since then, as it happens—as well as the experience of Belfast and other places. What is vital, of course, is that whatever the structure for the immediate future, such centres are brought into the core of the delivery of services. They make it possible not to send young women away, to keep them with their family units and to turn them around in the most remarkable way. The problem we have—I probably speak for all members of the Select Committee on this—is that there are so few of them to rely on. Alas, at this stage, some centres are suffering from financial pressure. However, there is no doubt at all that if the new landscape is to work, those centres must be major players in providing such vital services, whether on their own or in concert with others. I agree entirely with what the right hon. Gentleman said.

The Committee drew attention to the perverse incentives that will be given to private companies not to provide appropriate services for women under the new reforms, since such services are not always presented as measures to reduce reoffending but rather as more holistic and costly care. In their response, the Government did not exactly contradict that point. However, they did claim that there would be

“advantages for providers of offering sustained support to all offenders within a cohort…including those with more complex needs.”

Once again, we will have to wait and see how that plays out in practice. I have doubts, but I hope that I am wrong.

One of the principal things that the Committee wanted to point out was that the transforming rehabilitation agenda has clearly been designed with male offenders in mind. Women offenders are possibly an afterthought. We said:

“Funding arrangements for provision for women appear to be being shoehorned into the payment by results programme”.

We also warned of the danger of

“sentencers using short prison sentences as a gateway to support”,

which would completely undermine

“the post-Corston direction of travel”.

[Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)]

The right hon. Gentleman is right to draw attention to the fact that the Committee took evidence that suggested that the system had been designed with only men in mind. However, I would draw his attention to the fact that, under the transforming rehabilitation proposals, the use of innovative small providers might bring innovation and be a good influence on dealing with women offenders. I am not sure that the whole Committee shared the right hon. Gentleman’s view, but I accept that it was expressed strongly in evidence.

[Mr Llwyd]

The hon. Gentleman is an assiduous member of the Justice Committee. He and I do not share views on this particular agenda, but I accept what he says. The problem we have, however, is that the small providers to which he referred are currently withering on the vine. I can think of very few in north Wales that would actually be able to deliver. In some areas I am sure that what he said is right, but after all is said and done, the Bill is meant to cover the whole of England and Wales. I take his point. Yes, there is a role—for sure—for small providers. The problem is that there are too few of them.

[Nick de Bois]

I will use this opportunity to stress a point that I have repeatedly made in the Select Committee, for the Minister’s benefit. One of the ingredients for success of the new proposals will be that procurement allows for innovation and small providers. Some of those small providers who are struggling now may benefit if they are engaged on contracts that help to deliver the responses that the right hon. Gentleman wants.

[Mr Llwyd]

The hon. Gentleman’s point is very timely. The Minister has heard it, and I accept that it is an important point.

The Government have not agreed with our analysis of the post-Corston direction of travel. However, they have assured us that after contracts have been awarded, account managers within the Ministry of Justice will monitor the provision for female offenders. Hopefully, from time to time there will be reports, both to the Committee and to the House, on how these reforms play out.

Speaking of short-term sentences, one of the principal recommendations of Baroness Corston’s original report was that, because short-term prison sentences were doing more harm than good for most female offenders, community sentences should be awarded where appropriate. The Committee found that some improvement was being seen, albeit slow, but more than half of women sentenced to custody still received short sentences, during which it is virtually impossible to do anything with them. I was glad to see from the Government’s response that they are addressing that issue under the enhanced community provision workstream of its advisory board. The Government expect to

“establish an early adopter region”

where they can pilot

“the outcomes of early intervention with female offenders”.

The Government also noted that they would be producing

“awareness raising materials for decision-makers in the criminal justice system on the…needs of female offenders.”

Again, that is welcome. It is timely that we should be having this debate the day after the Report stage of the Offender Rehabilitation Bill. The efficacy, or otherwise, of many of the recommendations that our report makes will hinge on how those proposals are put into practice.

The Committee’s second report is on older prisoners. One of our main concerns was the extent to which much of the prison estate and its regimes were unadapted to the needs of older prisoners. On the visit to Dartmoor, for example, we found that a considerable amount of the Dartmoor estate was totally inaccessible to wheelchair users because the doors were too narrow. We found that absolutely unacceptable. However, we understand that Dartmoor is a listed building and, to be honest, there is very little that can be done. Nevertheless, it greatly concerned me and other members of the Committee that that should be the case.

We noted that the National Offender Management Service’s responsibility to provide for the physical adaptation of prisons to suit older prisoners’ needs is not being met universally; I have already given the example of Dartmoor. Our report said:

“We recommend that NOMS should conduct a comprehensive analysis of prisons’ physical compliance with disability discrimination and age equality laws.”

We also recommended that

“NOMS should determine which prisons simply are not able…to hold older prisoners and it should then no longer hold older or disabled prisoners in these institutions.”

I was glad to see that the Government agreed that such an analysis needed to take place and that they have committed to conducting an assessment of the current accommodation needs across the prison estate and of its suitability for prisoners with specific needs, reporting by the end of this year.

In principle, the Government have also agreed to keep the time spent by prisoners in unsuitable accommodation to an absolute minimum, which is clearly welcome. The Committee recommended that older prisoners should be assessed before entering prison, to ensure that their needs were met. In their response, the Government said that

“social care needs assessments will be the responsibility of local authorities”

after the provisions of the Care Bill come into force in 2015. I am not particularly satisfied with the lukewarm assertion that

“NOMS will work with NHS England to consider ways in which prisoners’ initial health assessments could lead to a referral”

and that the Government will

“explore whether age could reasonably mean that such a referral is automatic”.

These prisoners cannot be allowed to fall between two stools, and it is surely the Government’s responsibility to ensure that they do not do so.

I would also like some clarification about what the situation will be for older prisoners in the prison estate in Wales, who will rely on NHS Wales, and for older prisoners from Wales who are incarcerated in England and who will consequently use the NHS in England.

One thing that has not emerged hitherto is that the largest increase in the prison population is in the over-55 cohort. For various reasons—historical sex abuse is a prominent one, but there are many others—that is the growth area in terms of prison numbers. Therefore, the treatment of older prisoners is an urgent issue, which should be addressed with due priority.

We wanted to stress that older prisoners should be able to use their time in prison as productively as younger prisoners, if they so wish, and that NOMS should put in place older prisoner policies in every prison, to provide for age-specific regimes for this cohort. The Government refused to concede that latter point, and I am afraid that I do not agree with their assertion that

“A requirement for every prison to have an older prisoner policy detailing age specific regimes would reduce the ability of prison governors to provide regimes which reflect the actual and specific needs of prisoners.”

I do not think that promising that

“NOMS will explore opportunities to adapt regimes in prisons where the needs of the population require it”

goes far enough to address this problem. Prisoners will fall through the cracks if a uniform policy is not adopted across the prisons estate.

I was glad that the Government accepted in principle the Committee’s recommendation that there should be enhanced training of staff in the mental health care needs of older prisoners. Once again, however, the Government have said that

“NOMS will look to work with NHS England developing training packages”,

and I would be grateful to know what discussions the Government will have with the Welsh Government to ensure that work is co-ordinated, so that no older prisoners miss out on this provision.

I shall make a few comments about how our recommendations about the resettlement of older prisoners were received. In our report, we praised the resettlement services in HMP Dartmoor and Isle of Wight, mainly because they provided comprehensive resettlement and care plans for older prisoners. We suggested that NOMS should roll out such services in all prisons where there is an existing population of older prisoners. The Government again said that, in light of the passing of the Care Bill, local authorities would have a responsibility to provide a care plan in those circumstances and that NOMS would work with local authorities to support that process. Again, I would like clarification about how that will work with regard to Welsh older prisoners, whether they are incarcerated in England or in Wales.

Finally, we said that it was imperative that older prisoners were registered with a community GP after release into the community to ensure continuity of care. It is vital that services are linked up in that fashion. In their response, the Government once again referred only to NHS England, and I seek further information about what discussions the Government will have with the Welsh Government to ensure that adequate information is given to GPs in Wales about older prisoners when they are released, whether—as I have already said—they are incarcerated in Wales or in England.

I am sure that the Minister will respond in his usual assiduous manner to the various questions that I have put today. However, I need to place on record my apology, as I will not be here for the wind-ups; I have a televisual appointment later on this evening. I am grateful to you, Mr Bone, for allowing me to make this speech at this stage.

14:38

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Bone. It is also a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd). He is a good man. I cannot think of anything that I agree with him about, although I am sure that we would find something if we struggled long enough, but he is a good man who argues his corner very effectively. I guess that this is a subject on which he has been particularly effective in arguing his corner.

My sole purpose here in Westminster Hall today is to try to give people the facts, which often appear to be lost in these debates. People can make of the facts what they will, but it is important that we have the facts because there is no excuse for people being misinformed. Rather than the report on older prisoners, which I will leave for another day, I shall concentrate on the report on women offenders. I have been studying this subject closely for quite some time, and it is important that the House knows the background.

I take a close interest in justice issues and sentencing. I spend a lot of time on them, visiting prisons, and so on. I used to attend Justice questions month in, month out, to be told time and again how terribly and unfairly women were treated in the criminal justice system and how so many of them who were in prison should not be there. From questions and speeches that I listened to, this problem seemed to be particular to women. So effective was this constant—week in, week out, month in, month out—lobbying in the House that I became rather agitated by it.

I believe passionately in equality, in the sense that people should be treated the same, across the piece. I believe that, whether determining people’s pay or opportunities, or in this case the way people are sentenced when they commit a crime, everybody, including the courts, should be gender-blind, colour-blind, religion-blind and sexual orientation-blind. People should be treated equally, irrespective of any of those things. I believe in that passionately.

When I was steamrollered with all the information in Justice questions and debates about how terribly women were treated in the criminal justice system and how unfairly they were treated by the courts, I was so irritated that I decided that something should be done. I decided that it was terribly unfair if women were treated so badly by the criminal justice system, so I looked into it in greater detail. The Minister will confirm that, as will all his predecessors. I praise the Minister, because I probably bombard him with parliamentary questions, seeking out lots of information and the statistics on all these things. I must put on the record that, to my mind, the Ministry of Justice is probably the best Department for providing relevant information. Far too many Departments will say that it is too difficult or expensive to find information. The Ministry of Justice never does that; in my experience, it always provides the information that is required.

There are reams of statistics and information out there, so there is no excuse for anybody to be misinformed, yet it appears to me that many of my colleagues in Parliament go no further than reading briefings from the Howard League for Penal Reform or perhaps, at a push, sometimes, from the Prison Reform Trust. Those organisations have their own, perfectly legitimate, reasons for producing figures and statistics in a particular way. They have an agenda: they do not like people being sent to prison; they particularly do not like women being sent to prison. I do not blame them for trying to influence policy along the lines that they feel are right when the door is left open to them. What is not acceptable is the misuse of figures in the House of Commons when we are debating serious information, so I want to try to redress that balance today. I have tried to do it in the past and I will continue to do it in future.

Today, I feel that I have been making some headway, because the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd seemed to concede—the first time I have heard it conceded—that, yes, men are more likely to be sent to prison than women. That tends not to have been heard before. Listening to questions and debates in Parliament, people would be forgiven for thinking that that was not so. I am pleased that that at least has been acknowledged. The right hon. Gentleman set out why he thinks there are good reasons to treat women differently in the criminal justice system and not to send them to prison as often as men. To me, that is a perfectly legitimate point for him to pursue. I do not necessarily agree with it, although I may agree with him on certain points. I am pleased that we are at least starting to have that kind of honesty in the debate, with people saying that, yes, men are treated more harshly by the courts when being sentenced, but there is a reason for that. I believe that I am making at least some progress in this debate. I hope to make further progress later today.

The fact is that, at any time in recent history, about 5% of the prison population has been female. In 1900, according to the Library, 17% of the prison population were women, but since the 1950s onwards, it has hovered around 5%. Therefore 95% of the prison population is male. That might surprise many, given the focus on female offenders. What might be a bigger shock to people, if they follow these debates as I do, is that, according to the Library, in the past 10 years the female prison population has decreased by 3%, whereas the male prison population has increased by 24% over the same period. People could be forgiven for not realising that when they see all the reports and all the focus on the number of women being sent to prison, when men being sent to prison is never covered in the same way. With all the reports, action plans, working groups, campaign groups, strategies and special interest groups, who would have guessed that those were the facts about the numbers of men and women in prison and the trend over the past 10 years?

The confusion arises because so many myths surround the debate about female offenders. I have mentioned some of these points before. The premise of the Justice Committee’s report seems to have missed the point about the reality of the situation. In fact, in recommendation 7, the Committee rather bizarrely states:

“We welcome NOMS’ intention to accelerate work on the specific needs of women, but we are extremely disappointed that over six years after the Corston Report there is still not sufficient evidence about what those needs are, or how best to address them.”

This whole debate and report seems to have been compiled on the basis that it is accepted that women offenders are a special case, that they have special needs and that something must be done to reduce the female prison population. This view is not based on any evidence that I have seen and this section of the report seems to suggest that no such evidence has been seen by the Committee, either.

[Nick de Bois]

I do not often take issue with my hon. Friend, which probably comes as no comfort to some Committee members, but he is concentrating on the numbers of people going to prison. Should we not be talking about whether measures that make it less likely for any offender—in our report, women offenders—to reoffend must be the greater prize than competing about numbers of people in prison?

[Philip Davies]

I will come on to that in a second, but the point is that surely that applies equally to male offenders, yet there is not the same focus on what matters to male prisoners and what will reduce male reoffending as there is on what would reduce female prisoners’ reoffending. That is bizarre, given that women make up only 5% of the prison population. If my hon. Friend is so concerned about reducing reoffending and reducing the crime rate per se, one would have thought, given the sheer weight of numbers, that he and his Committee, and the Minister and the ministerial team at the Ministry of Justice, would think it more important to get to grips with male offending and reoffending, but that is not what we hear.

[Nick de Bois]

My hon. Friend is, of course, well aware that we are concentrating on one specific issue that the Committee looked at. Of course, we have equally looked at the effectiveness of transforming rehabilitation and the great prize that we will win from that by bringing down reoffending. Is my hon. Friend really saying that, although he wants justice to be blind, it should also be stupid? If there are special points of difference, surely we should examine those, even if they are based on sex.

[Philip Davies]

I do not accept my hon. Friend’s premise that not sending women to prison—I will come on to why in a second—will make the kind of difference that he thinks it will. I want to examine the types of people who are in prison.

[Sir Alan Beith]

May I recommend for the hon. Gentleman’s bedtime reading a report that we published just before the general election—a long report, much longer than this one, called “Cutting crime”, which deals almost entirely with male prisoners?

[Philip Davies]

I suspect that I have already had it as bedtime reading, because I seem to have read almost every report going on these matters. We can have an argument on the effectiveness of prison per se at another time. I am a big fan of sending more criminals to prison: for example, each year some 3,000 burglars with 15 or more previous convictions are not sent to prison, which is a national scandal, and I suspect that most of my constituents think so too. We can discuss that on a different occasion, and perhaps the Select Committee might want to consider why so few persistent burglars are sent to prison. My constituents would welcome that.

One point that crops up time and again is the idea that women offenders are, by definition, more vulnerable than male offenders and therefore need special protection. I want to address that first because I believe that much has been made of the special case of women offenders, but next to nothing has been said about the problems that men face. I have been interested to discover that some of the facts show that much of what is being said could apply equally to men. The House of Commons Library, for example, says that almost the same proportion of sentenced male prisoners as of sentenced female prisoners ran away from home as a child—47% compared with 50%. The Library also states that, although a third of female prisoners were excluded from school, a larger half of male prisoners were excluded from school. A quarter of both male and female prisoners are thought to have been in care when they were growing up. Although about one third of female prisoners admit to hazardous drinking, it seems that the figure for men is more like two thirds.

When we talk about those figures, we have to bear in mind the overall prison population figures. For the record, as of last Friday, 10 January, there were 3,845 women in prison and 80,413 men. Clearly half of the male prison population is a very large figure and half of the female prison population is a relatively low figure, so if campaigners are really concerned about the personal circumstances and vulnerabilities of individuals, they perhaps ought to be clear that far more men than women are in the position they describe of being vulnerable prisoners. On sheer numbers alone, one would therefore think male prisoners would be given far more attention than women prisoners.

Of course, the favourite subject among some campaigners is mental health, which is also mentioned prominently in recommendations 1 and 2 of the Select Committee report, and it is addressed in the Government response. Of course the figures in the report are only for women offenders, so in the interest of ensuring that we have the real picture, and not the one that some would like us to be left with, I will compare female offenders with such problems with male offenders in the same position.

In 2011, two women committed suicide in prison. I do not know the circumstances of those cases, but one might conclude that they were clearly vulnerable individuals. In the same period, 55 men took their own life. That is a stark example of the most serious end of the argument and it shows why it is unbelievable that so much time is spent compiling reports about vulnerable women, yet so little time is spent considering the hard facts about the deaths of male prisoners.

Even more recent figures show an alarming trend of which I hear little mention. Although the number of female self-harmers decreased from 1,429 in 2005 to 1,065 in 2013, the number of male self-harmers increased in that period from 5,692 to 6,823. Perhaps more starkly, over the same period the number of female self-harm incidents decreased by half, from 12,014 to 6,236, while the number of male self-harm incidents increased from 10,109 to 16,741. Again, according to the Ministry of Justice, 145 female offenders who self-harmed in 2013 required hospital treatment, whereas 10 times as many male offenders who self-harmed had to be taken to hospital. If people are concerned—and it may well be a legitimate concern—that women are vulnerable in those circumstances, surely men in such situations must be of equal concern. If that is the case, why do we have Select Committee reports simply on female offenders? Why do we not have the same reports on male prisoners, which we never seem to get?

[Mr Llwyd]

The hon. Gentleman is an intelligent man, but his last point is rather stupid. In our report we were considering the circumstances of female offenders. As the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) told him, there have been other reports on the male occupants of the prison estate. Saying that because we are considering the situation of women, we could not care less about men, is absolutely ridiculous.

[Philip Davies]

I am afraid we hear that time and again in the main Chamber. Questions focus on female offenders, female offenders, female offenders; there is never the same focus on either offenders overall or male offenders. All I am trying to do is introduce some balance to the debate. Actually, all of the things that people mention also apply to male offenders and, just because of the sheer numbers, in many more cases. I would like to see the same focus—arguably, a greater focus—on all of those issues in relation to male offenders.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend find it as surprising as I do that, whereas the female figure for self-harm incidents has been going down not just in total over an eight-year period but in every single one of those eight years, the male figure has been going up every single year? We might think that it is flying in the face of the facts to concentrate on females rather than males.

[Philip Davies]

One would have thought that, if the Select Committee was just considering the evidence, it would have wanted to focus on why the problem appears to be getting worse for male prisoners when it is getting better for female prisoners. Perhaps that would be a worthwhile thing to consider, but it appears that the Select Committee has glossed over that fact in its obsession with appealing to the politically correct lobby that wants to make out that women are treated far worse in prison than men.

One of the myths that I want to address is the idea that women are very likely to be sent to prison. The right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd gives the impression that many women should not be in prison, for reasons that apply only to women. He says there is a unique problem for women, and I want to nail that myth once and for all—I suspect that I will not, but I will give it my best shot.

Going back to my starting point, which is that I was appalled by what I was hearing about how women are treated so badly by the courts, I asked the House of Commons Library to provide the evidence that a higher proportion of women are being sent to prison. Not only could the Library not provide that evidence, but it confirmed that the exact opposite is true. I repeat that, for every single category of offence, a man up before the courts is more likely than a woman to be sent to prison. For violence against the person, for example, 35% of men and 16% of women are sent to prison; for burglary, 45% of men and just 26% of women are sent to prison; for robbery, 61% of men are sent to prison and 37% of women. It applies in every single category of offence: men are more likely than women to be sent to prison.

A Ministry of Justice publication called “Statistics on Women and the Criminal Justice System,” which is produced to ensure that there is no sex discrimination in the system, states:

“Of sentenced first-time offenders…a greater percentage of males were sentenced to immediate custody than females (29% compared with 17%), which has been the case in each year since 2005.”

[Nick de Bois]

In all my hon. Friend’s bedtime reading of the report’s 150-odd pages, did he see that on page 7 the Committee does state that women are less likely than men to be sentenced to custody? It is there in black and white, so I am not sure what we are arguing over.

[Philip Davies]

It is there, but it is hidden away; it is never mentioned by any member of the Select Committee in their speeches. They would like to give the exact opposite impression. They know exactly what they are doing.

[Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)]

I tried to stop myself intervening, but I am afraid that I cannot sit any longer. Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that the question of whether someone is sentenced to prison is a matter for the judge of the sentencing court? The defendant’s personal circumstances will be considered and mitigation will be put forward. The reality is that women’s circumstances are often different from men’s. It is wrong for him to suggest that the figures in the report are in any way hidden; they are clear. If memory serves—I read the report late last night—it states that 10% of male offenders and 3% of first-time women offenders are sentenced to custody. The figures are not hidden.

[Philip Davies]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. Later, I will discuss whether it is justified for special circumstances to apply when deciding whether to send women to prison.

[Mr Llwyd]

For clarification, I said in my speech that women are less likely to be sentenced to custody than men. In 2011, 3% of females were sentenced to custody, compared with 10% of males. I know that the hon. Gentleman is obsessed with his own argument and does not want to listen to the other side of the argument, but that was said, and it is on the record.

[Philip Davies]

If the right hon. Gentleman is listening to my speech, he will have heard me say at the start that I thought I was making some headway because this debate is the first time that I had heard him acknowledge that fact. It is not that I am not listening to him; it is a question of him not listening to me.

[Mr David Amess in the Chair]

I am grateful, however, because we are starting to make some progress. Everyone appears to be falling over themselves to say that men are more likely to be sent to prison than women. When I made that comment the other day and in previous debates, I have been told that that clearly is not true. Now, everyone is falling over themselves to say that what I am saying is right, and that they were there first. I do not want to be precious about this, and do not want it to seem that I was there first; if people want to claim the credit, I am happy for them to do so. I am just pleased that we are making some headway, and that the facts are for once beginning to rear their ugly heads.

The Ministry of Justice answered a question that I asked in September about pre-sentence reports and its recommendations for sentences in court. It was confirmed that probation staff are twice as likely to recommend custody for male offenders due to be sentenced in Crown court cases than for female offenders. For men, the figure is 24%, while it is just 11% for women. Even repeat offenders are more likely to fare better if they are women. For those who have committed more than 15 offences, pre-sentence reports recommend custody for 39% of men, compared with 29% of women. All that shows that it is wrong to say that women are more likely to be sent to prison than men. We seem to have agreed among ourselves that men are more likely than women to be sent to prison for committing exactly the same offence. That is the reality.

It is also true, however, that men will be sent to prison for longer than women. I refer again to the Ministry of Justice’s published figures, which state that women given an immediate custodial sentence for indictable offences receive shorter average sentence lengths than men. It is 11.6 months for women, compared with 17.7 months for men. That is not a minor difference. That figure shows that the average male prison sentence is over 50% longer than the average female sentence. That is something that those who allege that they are keen on equality may want to think about.

Not only are women less likely to be sent to prison and more likely to be given a shorter sentence, but they are more likely to serve less of the sentence in prison than men. The Ministry of Justice helpfully points that out in its offender management statistics:

“Those discharged from determinate sentences…had served 53 per cent of their sentence in custody… On average, males served a greater proportion of their sentence in custody—53 per cent compared to 48 per cent for females”

in the same period. It continues:

“This gender difference is consistent over time, and partly reflects the higher proportion of females who are released on Home Detention Curfew.”

Other published Ministry of Justice figures confirm that. In fact, there is quite a disparity. In the past few years for which figures have been published, women have had 50% more of a chance than men of being released from prison early on home detention curfew. I hope that we have finally nailed the idea that women are treated more harshly by the courts than men. Men are clearly treated more severely by the courts when it comes to being sent to prison.

The other myth that we hear—the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd hinted at it earlier—is that most women in prison are serving short sentences for petty, non-violent offences, and that they would be better off being dealt with elsewhere. Let us take a snapshot of the sentenced female prison population at a moment in time and look at the detail of all these “poor women” who are serving prison sentences and who should—apparently—be out and about in the local community. Which women prisoners do those who advocate reducing the female prison sentence want to let out? I asked that question of the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon), who has been good enough to come back again today, for which I am grateful. The right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd gave the impression—although he perhaps would not want to subscribe to this—that as much as 80% of women prisoners should not be in prison. That was the impression that he wanted to leave us with when he made his comments.

I have the latest Ministry of Justice figures on the female prison population, and I want to know which of these people the right hon. Gentleman and others think should not be in prison. Is it the 231 who are in there for murder? Is it the 61 who are in there for manslaughter? Perhaps it is the 73 who are in there for other and attempted homicides. Is it the 391 who are in for wounding? Is it the 52 in for assault? Perhaps it is the 56 who are in prison for cruelty to children, or the 85 who are in for other violence against the person. Maybe the 83 who are in there for sexual offences should not be in prison. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman has in mind the 328 who are in prison for robbery. Is it the 208 who were unlucky enough to be sent to prison for burglary? They must have been persistent burglars to have been sent to prison.

The right hon. Gentleman probably does have in mind the 508 women who are in prison for theft and handling stolen goods, but maybe it is the 574 who are in for drug offences; perhaps they are the ones who he thinks should not have been sent to prison. Maybe it is the 86 women who are in prison for arson, the 24 for criminal damage, the 12 for blackmail or the 37 for kidnapping. Maybe the right hon. Gentleman has those people in mind when he says that these women, who apparently pose no danger to the public, should not be in prison. When those numbers are added up, they make up far more than half of the female prison population. Let us hear which ones should not be in prison. I would like to know.

[Sir Alan Beith]

rose—

[Philip Davies]

The Chair of the Justice Committee will tell us.

[Sir Alan Beith]

I have a suggestion for the hon. Gentleman. I would like him to take a trip to Texas to meet some right-wing Republicans who have decided that there is no point in spending so much money on putting so many women in prison on short-term sentences for drug offences when they could be got off drugs and restored to a decent life through methods in the community. It is right-wing Republicans who are saying that.

[Philip Davies]

I am delighted that the Chair of the Justice Committee is leading with his chin on this issue. He fails to acknowledge that the prison population in Texas is far higher, so it is starting from a much higher base. I would be delighted if we could agree that the prison population in the UK should be the same as Texas’s. If he is suggesting that we should emulate Texas in our criminal justice and sentencing system, consensus will have broken out in this Chamber. If that is the direction of travel that he thinks we should go in—Texas—I am all for it, and more power to his elbow.

At least the Chair of the Justice Committee had a bash at answering my question, for which I give him credit. He seemed to indicate that it was the 574 women in prison for drug offences who should not be in prison. That number includes 166 for supplying drugs, 113 for possession with intent to supply, and 140 who were importing or exporting drugs. They are the ones who he believes should not be in prison. I give him credit for putting his head above the parapet, but no one else who says that all these women should not be in prison is prepared to identify which should not be there. The reality is that these women are not in prison for minor offences, and it is an absolute disgrace that people try to suggest otherwise.

I want to emphasise how serious the offences are for which some female offenders are in prison. The argument is made that all these women are in prison for short sentences and perhaps should be serving community sentences instead. That is an absolute myth. According to the prison population figures, just under 16% of women in prison have sentences of less than six months. That is clearly quite a minority. If some do not class six months as a short sentence, I will be charitable and go up to a year; a further 6% of women are in prison for between six months and a year, so 22% of female prisoners are sentenced to less than a year in prison. Some 78% of female prisoners are sentenced to more than a year, and who can say that they are not serious offenders, when we already know that they are given shorter sentences than men? These are clearly serious or persistent offenders, and I hope that we can start nailing that particular myth too.

Sentences of more than a year mean that the magistrates court felt that the offenders’ crimes were so serious that they were not capable of sentencing them. They had to send the cases to the Crown court, otherwise the offenders could not have got those sentences. Let us end the myth that all those women in prison are in for short sentences and for not very serious offences.

[Karl Turner]

Will the hon. Gentleman at least accept that the needs of women in prison differ from those of men? He will be aware of the tragic case that was raised recently by the shadow Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Jenny Chapman), with the Justice Secretary. A woman prisoner miscarried in a prison cell and was apparently told by prison officers to clean up the cell afterwards. Does the hon. Gentleman want to comment on that?

[Philip Davies]

I appreciate that the shadow Minister has probably got a wasp in his trousers and is itching to get on with things, but if he bears with me, in a second I will come on to say why I do not necessarily accept his premise that women should be treated differently from men. As it happens—I have made this clear already—if people want to make the point that women should be treated more favourably by the courts than men, that is perfectly legitimate. I do not have a problem with that, so long as we are having an honest argument about what the facts and figures are.

If people are saying that the 2,789 women who are sentenced to prison each year for theft and handling should not be sent to prison—I suspect, given that they have been sent to prison, that they must be serious and persistent offenders—I presume that they think, though they never say so, that the 16,501 men who are sent to prison for that offence each year should not go to prison either. Perhaps that is what people secretly think, but they do not want to be seen to say, “We want to cut the prison population by the thick end of 20,000 each year.” No one ever seems to say that.

I want to move on to another myth, which I hope will deal with the point the shadow Minister raised. The myth is about how prison separates mothers from their children, which unduly punishes them. That goes to the point made by the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd on why he believes it is right that men are more likely to be sent to prison than women. I want to instil some seldom-offered facts into this side of the debate. It is said that 17,000 children are separated from their mothers, and that 60,000 women in custody have children under the age of 18. Those are the figures, as far as I am aware, and I am not sure that anyone would dispute them. As I have said before in a Westminster Hall debate, a senior Ministry of Justice civil servant helpfully confirmed that two thirds of the mothers sent to prison

“didn’t have their kids living with them when they went into prison.”

People use the figures to say, “X per cent. of mothers are sent to prison.” Well, yes, they are mothers—no one can deny that—but in two thirds of cases, they are not looking after their children when they are sent to prison. Why should they become a special case at that point, when the children have already been taken away from them because the mother is presumably considered not fit to look after them? Why do we still consider them to be a special case, simply because they are mothers?

When it comes to the minority of mothers sent to prison who are still looking after their children, it is wrong to assume that they are all fantastic mothers. Many will be persistent offenders with incredibly chaotic lifestyles. Some, no doubt, will end up dragging their children into their criminal lifestyles, and some will scar their children for life along the way. Others will have committed serious offences. Sarah Salmon from Action for Prisoners Families said:

“For some families the mother going into prison is a relief because she has been causing merry hell.”

To most people, that would be a statement of the obvious. Why should those women be treated as a special case, when they are clearly not providing a great role model to their children or having a great influence on their upbringing? If anything, they are having a negative influence on their upbringing. Let us not forget those mothers who are in prison for abusing their children and being cruel to them. I am not entirely sure that anyone would think they should be a special case either.

If we are so concerned about the children of women offenders, what about the estimated 180,000 children who are separated from their fathers, because their father is in prison? In the age of equality, should we not be at least equally outraged about that? If we are not, why not? I thought there was a growing acceptance that a father was just as important to a child’s upbringing as a mother. Why are we treating mothers as a special case in all these cases? I do not see any justification for that when we know for a fact, thanks to the Ministry of Justice and the figures it produces, that two thirds of mothers are not even looking after their children when they are sent to prison. I hope we can nail the myth that that is a reason for treating women differently when they are sentenced in the courts.

Another myth is that women are generally treated more harshly in the justice system than men. Yes, we have now accepted that men are more likely to be sent to prison, but if we go underneath the prison regime, the myth is that women are treated more harshly by the courts before being sent to prison, but that, again, is not true. Even when they are not sent to prison, men are more likely to receive a community order than women. You would think it was the other way round, Mr Amess. So few women are sent to prison, one would think that most of them would get a community order, but no. We do not have any of that. Some 10% of women sentenced are given a community order, compared with 16% of men. The Ministry of Justice confirmed that the

“patterns were broadly consistent in each of the last five years.”

That is not all. The Ministry also points out that the average length of a community sentence is longer for men than it is for women. It said:

“For women receiving a community order, the largest proportion had one requirement (46%), whereas the largest proportion of men had two requirements (41%).”

So the pattern is complete: men are more likely to be sent to prison than women, they are more likely to be sent to prison for longer than women for the same offences, and they are more likely to serve more of their sentence in prison than women. Men are more likely than women to get a community sentence, and to have a community sentence that lasts for longer, and they are likely to have more requirements added to it. It is a full house; that is the picture of how men and women are treated in the courts and the criminal justice system.

I return to where I sort of began. Many of those who take part in these debates are the self-confessed equality issues addicts. They want equality in this, that and the other. It is a perfectly laudable aim; I believe in equality, too. People should be treated the same, irrespective of their gender, race, religion or sexual orientation, so why should that not be the case when it comes to sentencing people for committing the same crime? We are dealing with the “equality when it suits” agenda. The argument is that women and men should be treated the same, unless we can get better treatment for women, which we are all in favour of. That is not equality. It is very selective, and in my view sexist. Courts should sentence people on the basis of the crime, not whether they are a man or a woman.

The Select Committee would do well to consider the prison population as a whole and why the male prison population is so large. If it wants to strike a blow for the rights of women, it should argue for men and women to be treated the same by the courts, and that it is the crime committed, not gender, that should count. If we were considering the same phenomenon in relation to race, religion or sexual orientation, it would be considered an outrage. I consider it an outrage that women are treated so much more favourably in the criminal justice system than men. People may think it a good thing for them to be treated differently—some clearly do—but at least let us be honest about the facts and acknowledge them. I am pleased that some right hon. and hon. Members have begun to do that today, so we can draw our own conclusions. If we do nothing else today but set out the inconvenient—to many—facts, the debate will have been useful after all.

[Mr David Amess (in the Chair)]

Order. I am minded to start the winding-up speeches at 4 o’clock, which will leave half an hour for the two Front-Bench spokesmen and the Chairman of the Select Committee to make some closing remarks. I think there are three or four hon. Members who want to catch my eye, so perhaps they can share the 40 minutes between themselves.

[Sir Alan Beith]

On a point of order, Mr Amess. I offer to surrender the opportunity to make closing remarks, to give the Minister a little more time to answer the full range of issues raised in the debate.

[Mr David Amess (in the Chair)]

That is most helpful.

15:21

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

I will be relatively brief, Mr Amess. I want to ask a few questions about the Government’s response to the report, but first, as I raised the issue of detention centres earlier, I hope that the Minister will pass on to his Home Office colleagues the importance of addressing the report today from the chief inspector of prisons. I raised the Harmondsworth detention centre incidents in the debate on the Immigration Bill on 22 October, and referred to the visitors’ report published last year. I continue to be concerned; we need to deal with the concerns regularly expressed by the visitors. There was also a separate report on mental health in particular, published just before Christmas by Detention Action.

I have some questions about progress in relation to the Government’s response to the Select Committee report. The Secretary of State said:

“I have considered the Committee’s recommendation to develop a strategy for older prisoners. I accept the suggestion that a national, consistently applied approach is needed across prisons and prison staff.”

I am not completely sure what the difference is between a strategy and a consistently applied approach, but the Government’s response to the issues raised by the Select Committee seems to include action on a number of fronts, which is helpful.

As to the categorisation of older prisoners, the Government responded:

“We will not look to categorise prisoners as old by their age, but we will look at the possibility of automatic consideration of possible age related issues…We will undertake analysis of offender needs by age to help understand at which age it would be best to do this.”

It would be useful to have a time scale on that, and a progress report in due course. Perhaps the Minister can advise us what is happening.

The Government promised a review of the suitability of the prison estate. They agreed that

“a formal analysis of the estate is required”

and said they would

“develop a process for conducting an assessment of current accommodation”

to be completed by “the end of 2014”. I know it is early, but some form of publication of the way that is being undertaken, and in what stages—whether it is being done geographically, region by region, or category by category—would be helpful, particularly in the light of the reorganisation of the Prison Service under the Government’s new proposals.

The Government said:

“As far as possible, NOMS will ensure that older prisoners are not allocated to an establishment that cannot meet their needs. We are grateful to the committee for their recognition that this will be subject occasionally to operational difficulties”.

It will be useful to see how the Government will monitor the occasions when operational difficulties have an impact on the appropriate allocation of a prisoner to a specific site or prison.

On another matter of progress, the Government responded to what the report said about the health and social care of older prisoners, saying:

“We agree that better management of health appointments is desirable. To support this, NOMS will work with NHS England on the possibility and suitability of increasing the use of video link technology.”

It would be useful have information—not necessarily today, but perhaps in writing—about the programme and the time scale for implementation. Some idea of cost would be useful as well.

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on what he is saying; I know how passionately he feels about the issue. As to social care, a similar point was made to me by Professor John Williams of Aberystwyth university. He said that one of the biggest obstacles for social care services for older people was the ordinary residence rule. What is the ordinary residence of a prisoner? Is it where they come from, the location of the prison, or where they will go after release? Local authorities can play that card to avoid responsibility. That needs to be clarified.

[John McDonnell]

I fully agree. I was going to come on to that point, but the hon. Gentleman has covered it for me. Local authority funding is a key issue, particularly for those with prisons nearby.

The Government responded to a proposal about the incorporation of awareness training with regard to the elderly. They said:

“NOMS will look to work with NHS England developing training packages.”

I should in due course welcome the Minister’s detailed response about how that is being approached, including the progress being made, the cost, and the consultation that is being undertaken, particularly with the Prison Officers Association and the POA’s involvement in designing and promulgating the package.

I am extremely concerned that we secure a clear financial base for local authorities in the new role that they will play in social care. As the hon. Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) said, we need clarity about who is responsible, and what the cost burden in the locality will be. The Government said that they were “currently refining” the estimates

“through a survey of prisoners.”

That obviously relates to scale of costs. They also said:

“Funding provision that recognises the additional costs will be provided to Local Authorities.”

It would be extremely helpful to know what progress had been made in the negotiations with local authorities, and the estimates that had been bandied about—I know those are a matter for negotiation, as that is something I did in another life. It would be useful to know how the consultation is being undertaken, whether agreement is reached in due course about the scale of the costs and how they will be administered. That will come down to a detailed formula at some stage, but it would be helpful to have early information and some understanding of how any difficulties will be resolved.

The Committee raised the question of the age trigger, and the Government said that they would re-examine it. They said that

“an assessment of the costs and benefits of an age trigger for health and social care assessments would be needed before any commitment to an automatic age trigger for either health or social care assessment”

would be entered into. It would be useful to know how that assessment was being undertaken and, again, the time scale for and manner of its report to the Committee or the House.

The Select Committee raised the issue of restraint, in relation to escorts in particular; some members have found restraint a difficult matter. The Government responded:

“NOMS’ escorts policy is currently under review and this issue will be explored further as part of that.”

It would be useful, again, to know the time scale for that and how it will be reported. Will there be opportunities to examine the policy in more detail as the Government develop it?

As to resettlement, there is guidance to be published with the new Bill, with respect to NOMS working

“with their partners in local authorities to see how prisons can support this.”

It would be useful to know from the Minister whether that guidance is in draft form already, when it will be published and how it will be agreed in due course. The relationship with local authorities will clearly be a key matter.

The Government response also stated that

“NOMS will explore the possibility of making some small-scale improvements to Approved Premises.”

It will be useful to have some details of the assessment undertaken and of the time scales for implementation.

Finally, the Government response also dealt with the transit of prisoners between areas and how that would be clarified:

“This work should be completed alongside the launch of the Care Bill in 2015.”

It will be useful to have some detail about how that is being examined—who has been involved in the consultations and discussions, and again whether some of the issues have been dealt with or are being overcome in those discussions.

15:30

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Amess, and to follow the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), who has posed a number of questions to the Minister. I have no questions to pose, but I want to support the comments made earlier by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) and to speak out on behalf of what might be called the man in the street’s approach to sentencing and crime.

In essence, I want to see men and women treated equally by our justice system. I see no reason why a woman, purely for being a woman, should receive a more lenient sentence or any more favourable treatment than a man. Despite everything that has been said, my hon. Friend has done the whole House a favour—as he has tried to do on previous occasions, to be fair—by establishing the actual facts. Too often the facts get lost amid all the rhetoric. We need to see the right sentence to reflect the nature of the crime.

Looking at this from the point of view of the victim of the crime, if my home has been burgled, it makes no difference to me whether it was burgled by a man or a woman. The home owner will expect the sentence to be the same for whomever it was who burgled the house, whether man or woman, because the effect on the victim of the crime is the same. We seem to be moving away from the idea in the old adage that the punishment must fit the crime, to a modern 21st-century idea that the punishment must fit the offender.

[Sir Alan Beith]

I draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention to the many victims who have come before the Justice Committee as witnesses. They have said that the thing uppermost in their mind was that no one else should have to suffer the offence that they had suffered. The most appropriate decision, therefore, is whichever sentence is least likely to lead to reoffending.

[Mr Nuttall]

I am sure that that is absolutely right: the first thought of any victims of crime would be that they do not want anyone else to suffer in the same way. That brings me to my next point.

[Philip Davies]

If we all agree with that point, presumably the best way to ensure that someone is not a victim of crime is to ensure that offenders are in prison, because while they are in prison they cannot go out and commit another crime.

[Mr Nuttall]

My hon. Friend leads me nicely on to the point I want to make about a concept that is rarely heard of—we have hardly touched on it in the debate—which is punishment. We have hardly heard anything about punishment. Sentencing is also about imprisoning people as punishment for the crime that they chose to commit—whether a man or a woman, they chose to commit the crime. That goes to the heart of the matter.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

I apologise that I was not here for the start of the debate. I was speaking in the debate on Bangladesh in the main Chamber. As a member of the Justice Committee, however, I have taken part in all the inquiries, and I invite the hon. Gentleman to consider for one moment that societies that obsess solely about punishment end up with large prison populations and a very high rate of reoffending. Countries that go in for a combination approach, including a rehabilitation process, often end up with smaller prison populations, less reoffending and less crime.

[Philip Davies]

Garbage.

[Mr David Amess (in the Chair)]

Order.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

On a point of order, Mr Amess, the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) just described what I said as garbage. Whether that is parliamentary or not, I am not particularly bothered, but if he wants to make an intervention to challenge my assertion, why does he not do so, rather than make such remarks?

[Mr David Amess (in the Chair)]

I have listened carefully to what the hon. Gentleman said. It is not in order to use the word “garbage”. Someone may wish to make a further intervention, but for now I call Mr David Nuttall.

[Mr Nuttall]

I entirely accept the reason of the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) for not being present earlier in the debate. That matters not; it was appropriate for him to be speaking in the other debate in the main Chamber. I also accept that, as a member of the Committee, he has spent some time looking into the subject, but I was not suggesting that rehabilitation should play no part in the justice process. Clearly, rehabilitation will have a part to play in most cases, although some cases are so heinous that offenders will not let be out of prison. If I had my way, of course, we would see the introduction of capital punishment—that would go some way towards dealing with the number of older prisoners in our prison estate.

[Philip Davies]

And with reoffending.

[Mr Nuttall]

And with reoffending, for that matter.

I am conscious of your guidance on time, Mr Amess, so I will not digress too much, but does it really matter whether someone is young or old, or male or female? A victim of crime who has suffered wants to see someone punished for that crime. The facts show, however, that male offenders are more likely to be sentenced to immediate custody than a female offender. Taking robbery, for example, 61.7% of male offenders but only 37% of female offenders are sentenced to immediate custody. Furthermore, when they are sentenced, the average sentence length for men is much more—34.1 months on average, compared with 25.5 months for female offenders. That is the same across the board, whichever sector we look at, for all offenders: thus, for burglary, 44.9% of men receive immediate custodial sentences, but only 26.6% of women.

Whichever category we look at, therefore, we see the same result—that cannot be right and it cannot be excused. We should not be looking for all sorts of socio-economic reasons to explain why people have committed crime. The introduction to the report on women offenders mentioned categories that should be taken into account, including a variety of “personal circumstances” and

“socio-economic factors such as poverty”.

I grew up in straitened circumstances and I find it extremely insulting when people suggest that people living in poor circumstances should somehow be excused for committing crime. That is simply not right. I was brought up in difficult circumstances, but we were all taught the difference between right and wrong; that it is wrong to commit crime, to steal from a neighbour or to hit someone else. We need to get back to a society in which, from an early age, people are taught the difference between right and wrong and that offenders are punished, and punished severely, so that they do not want to commit more crime or go back to prison. That is how we will cut crime in this country.

15:39

[Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)]

I apologise, Mr Amess, but I have to leave before the end of the debate, because I have to meet a distinguished visitor who is coming to address the Defence Committee. I shall be as brief as possible.

I have listened to one of the speeches in today’s debate more than once this week, and I have to say that I have not found myself agreeing with one iota of it on either occasion. I find it most worrying when people say that equality means sameness. Equality is not about things being the same. If it was, we would expect someone with a disability to be able to do the same as somebody who does not have a disability, and, if we asked them to do the same things, we would say that was because we were treating them equally, but we would not be treating them equally; we would be treating one of them unfairly. Equality is not about sameness.

I want to discuss why we use prison and the impact of prison on women. I have always thought that prison was there for risks of harm, and in particular for those people who are a risk to public safety. If we look at the figures from various research establishments, we will see that the majority of women prisoners are themselves victims. Many have been the victims of domestic violence or sexual abuse. Many are serving short, rather than long, sentences for the offences they have committed. Many are sentenced to community-based alternatives, with lower levels of expectation in those sentences, because the crimes they have committed have been less violent. To give some figures to show how violent offences among young girls have fallen, in 2006-07, there were just over 17,000 convictions for violent offences committed by young girls; in 2009-10, that figure was down to 13,000. It is also interesting to drill down into the figures and see the reasons why women’s offences are committed: for example, 48% of women’s offences were committed in support of someone else’s drug use, often a male partner’s.

Members will be aware that I have been concerned for some time about how we are using the criminal justice system instead of the mental health system to deal with people with mental health problems. A woman in prison is nearly twice as likely as a man to have had depression—65% of women in prison had depression before they were there, as opposed to 37% of men. The incidence of depression among women who have been convicted of offences is three times greater than among women in the general population. If we look at what the public want for women offenders, we find that they want more drug treatment, alcohol treatment and mental health treatment, and more debt advice, because it is generally accepted that those are the drivers of a large percentage of crimes committed by women.

In 2011 there were 1.2 million convictions, of which 24% were of women. According to the figures for why men and women have been convicted, 52% of the convictions for theft and handling of stolen goods were of women, and 33% were of men. Women are often engaged in petty theft—they are more often the shoplifters, and are more often shoplifting as a way of supplementing their household income or supporting a member of their family. It is not done for self-gain; it is a way of dealing with domestic and personal circumstances.

In 2011, 24,000 women in prison were self-harming. That rate was 10 times higher than the rate for men. As for the figures for mental health diagnosis, 30% of women had had a psychiatric admission before going to prison; 63% of women had been diagnosed with a neurotic or personality disorder, as opposed to 40% of men; and 14% of women had a psychotic disorder, as opposed to 7% of men. We are using our prison system to house women with mental health problems.

In a recent debate in this Chamber, we looked at the criminal justice system and how the police are increasingly having to deal with people with mental health problems because the health service refuses to deal with them, because they are seen as too violent or have a learning disability or drug or alcohol problem. As a result, those people end up in the criminal justice system. During that debate, I talked about a young person in my constituency. I want to highlight that young person again as an example of someone who should not be in the criminal justice system. We have been asked to talk about somebody who should not be in prison; well, she is a young person who should not be.

My constituent is 23. She is about a size 8. I have known her since she was a baby, and she is an absolute little darling, but she has quite severe mental health problems. When—and only when—she cannot cope, because she is in mental crisis and her brain is so dysfunctional that she cannot cope with life, she uses alcohol. The alcohol causes her behaviour and personality to change. Some time ago, she was placed under an antisocial behaviour order. The police have been called to 130 incidents in relation to this young person; she has been in court 81 times and has served 19 terms of imprisonment. She came out from her 18th term just after the debate on mental health and the criminal justice system that I initiated in this Chamber.

I had spoken to the police and the probation services about this young woman. Everybody was desperate for her not to go back into prison again—they knew it was wrong for her—but she is becoming so institutionalised now that prison is the place where the boundaries are there to contain her mental disorder. Just before Christmas, things went very badly wrong again and she went back to court. Everyone went to court to beg that she not be sent back to prison again, and she was sectioned. On Christmas day, she rang her parents and said, “I want to say goodbye.” She was in a psychiatric ward. Her parents got through to the main switchboard there and said, “For God’s sake, get to our daughter—she is going to kill herself.” When the staff broke into her room, she was unconscious, with a rope around her neck. Only by a miracle did they bring her back. A few days later, the psychiatrist decided that she had a personality disorder and discharged her. In desperation, she drank again and was sent back to prison.

That is a young person who should not be in the criminal justice system, and there must be many more like her. We are wasting vast amounts of money and we are wasting courts’ time serving sentences on such people in the criminal justice system, when in fact we ought to be using our health services to find appropriate treatment and care for such women and such people.

15:50

[Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)]

It is always a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Amess. I am pleased to speak on these two excellent reports following inquiries conducted by the Select Committee on Justice. The two reports, “Women Offenders: after the Corston Report” and “Older Prisoners”, raise some important questions and make valuable recommendations about two distinct groups within our justice system. I will begin with women offenders.

Six years after Baroness Jean Corston’s report, which made 43 recommendations to drive improvements in the women’s criminal justice agenda, I and the Justice Committee are concerned that we do not have strong leadership in the Ministry of Justice. That must be an issue. In their response to the Corston report, the Labour Government accepted 41 of the 43 recommendations and set out to implement them under the strong direction of my hon. Friend the Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle), the then ministerial champion for women and cross-departmental women’s policy unit. However, as the report rightly identifies, leadership has weakened in the Ministry of Justice since 2010. It also identified a two-year hiatus in efforts to implement the Corston recommendations. During the first two years of this Government, there was no designated Minister responsible for women in the criminal justice system, and I remember raising the issue on a couple of occasions with the then Lord Chancellor.

I agree with the report that it is

“clear that the matter of female offending too easily fails to get priority”

in the system

“in the face of other competing issues.”

A much-delayed strategy was published in March 2013 by the hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant), whom I commend for that. It was welcome, but I submit that the six-page document was a vague strategic objective. I think that the Select Committee was right to say that it was produced in haste with insufficient thought. Despite the Minister’s creation of an advisory board, the report states that

“without wider ministerial involvement”,

it will not

“constitute a sufficient mechanism for high level cross-departmental governance arrangements of the sort that Baroness Corston initially proposed”.

Without such ministerial leadership, the board would not have the authority to bring about integrated strategy and co-ordinated service provision.

I also note concerns that the Government’s “Transforming Rehabilitation” agenda may pay little regard to the needs of women offenders. I believe that there is now general agreement that women should not be dealt with in the criminal justice system in the same way as men. Women end up in prison for different reasons than men do, and women often find themselves in prison for non-violent criminality. There also seems to be general agreement that although prison is absolutely right for some crimes committed by women, for the majority of women offenders, imprisonment is frequently an ineffective response. The very personal story told by my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon) hits the nail on the head in that regard.

The report states that such recognitions are not about treating women more favourably or implying that they are less culpable, as hon. Members who have spoken in this debate have pointed out; rather, they are about accepting that women face different hurdles from men in their journey towards a law-abiding life, and that the justice system needs to respond appropriately. Again, I fully support those views. It is therefore worrying that the report has found little evidence that the equality duty has had the desired impact of systematically encouraging local mainstream commissioners to provide gender-specific services, tackling the underlying causes of women’s offending, or consistently informing broader policy initiatives within the Ministry of Justice and the National Offender Management Service.

The report identifies further failings and states that progress on the NOMS segmentation work, which aims to separate out groups of offenders to understand risks and needs and target resources accordingly, has been far too slow. It is fair to say, and I am sure that people would agree, that the last Government made good progress on the Corston agenda, which has fallen by the wayside, to be perfectly honest, under this Government.

[Sir Alan Beith]

The hon. Gentleman is slightly overstating his case. What we actually said was that under the previous Government, it took a significant effort, not least by the present deputy leader of his party, to bring together a group of Ministers—women Ministers, as it happened—to get cross-Government signing and implementation. Most of those things were not lost in the first two years of this Government, but further progress might have been more rapid and productive if some kind of similar leadership group had been got together.

[Karl Turner]

I accept that point from the Chairman of the Select Committee, but I think it is absolutely fair to say that during the first two years of the coalition Government, there was no Minister responsible for this area. I respectfully submit that that has been a factor. The governance structures built by the last Government seem to have been pulled down, and the consensus of the majority of witnesses to the inquiry was that progress appears to have stalled under the coalition Government.

In evidence to the Committee, Baroness Corston referred to the previous Government’s abolition of routine strip searches and praised the fact that dedicated funding had been made available to establish community-based women’s centres. Again, I and other Opposition Members are concerned that those centres, which are making a difference in our communities, have suffered funding cuts under the coalition Government. There are now serious concerns about funding to local authorities, which use some of their moneys to fund other centres. I can think of one in my constituency, the Purple House on Preston road, which has done a lot of work with women offenders. It has done a massive amount of work, saving the taxpayer vast amounts of money by preventing people from going into custody.

Like the Committee, I remain unconvinced of the extent to which the approach set out in the Government’s strategic priorities for women offenders is truly integrated across Departments. The Chairman just intervened on me to say that the damage is probably less than I was suggesting, but that is a matter of opinion, and frankly, I disagree. It seems that work on the Corston report’s key recommendation—improvements to high-level governance and cross-departmental working for women offenders—has stalled and is in fact being dismantled. Six years after Corston, we still have far too many women in our prisons, and we need to reduce that number significantly.

In addition to driving the Corston review forward, we look to emulate the success of the previous Government’s Youth Justice Board, which presided over a halving in the number of first-time offences by young people, and a fall of a quarter in the number of young people locked up. Targeting specific groups and tailoring an approach to offenders’ unique circumstances have been shown to work. Using the Youth Justice Board as a blueprint for a similar board for women might have the same impact. Will the Minister consider that?

I congratulate the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), on his new job. He will be responsible for this area, and I know that he will take that seriously. I hope that he will look carefully at the report and implement some of its recommendations.

I turn to older prisoners, who were mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell). This debate is timely, given the report by Her Majesty’s inspectorate of prisons that states that an 84-year-old immigrant detainee suffering from dementia died in handcuffs while in detention. That is a matter for the Home Office, but it is shocking and underlines the fact that the needs of older prisoners and detainees in our prisons and detention centres must be recognised.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

On our visit to Dartmoor prison, we saw a high level of care and concern for older prisoners, but the facilities were appalling. However good the care and support for individual prisoners, the building is simply not capable of dealing with wheelchairs, among other things. I left the prison thinking that that was not the best way of treating people, and I question the value to anyone of keeping some of those elderly men in prison.

[Karl Turner]

My hon. Friend makes a valid point that was made in the report of the Committee, of which he is a serving member. The idea of elderly prisoners trying to clamber into bunks to sleep is clearly unsatisfactory, but there is no magic wand, and we must address the issue. We must accept that the prison population is getting older and deal with that. Society generally has an ageing population, which is making us reassess health and social care provision, end-of-life accommodation and older people’s living needs. Although it will not be popular, we must also reconsider the needs of older people in prison.

We welcome this inquiry, and the resulting excellent report, which highlights the exact issues facing older prisoners. It makes some key recommendations about how to address those issues. Prisoners over 55 are the fastest-growing age group in custody, and in the last eight years, there has been increasing evidence of the needs of older people in prison. That has led to a developing awareness among prison staff and prisoners of the difficulties facing older people, and a greater understanding that the response is often inadequate. As my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) said, it seems that prisons are ill-equipped to meet their needs. There are various reasons why our prison population is getting older. Prisoners are serving longer sentences, and they may even be convicted and sentenced at an older age for historical sexual offences; a number of cases of that kind are being reported on in the media.

There is some debate about what age constitutes an older prisoner. Some people argue that due to the early onset of health issues in prisoners, that should be defined as anyone over 50. Others, including the Government and the Justice Committee, argue that it is not sensible to impose a rigid age classification, whether we are talking about those who are 50, 60 or 65. It is worrying that the report states that many older prisoners are being held in establishments that simply cannot meet their needs. We accept that for operational and practical reasons it is not always possible to allocate older prisoners to entirely suitable prisons, but we support the view that NOMS should, as a rule, not allocate such prisoners to an establishment that cannot meet their needs.

The report also raises concerns about fragmented provision and barriers to health care for older prisoners, which is particularly worrying. I support the view that cancelling hospital appointments because of lack of communication between health care providers and prison officers is entirely avoidable; that issue must be addressed urgently.

Mental health care needs are also widespread in prisons with higher levels of depression among older prisoners. It is reassuring that services are being commissioned to address mental health issues in prisons, and that organisations such as Age UK and the Alzheimer’s Society are running specific dementia services in prisons with large populations of older prisoners. However, clearly we need to do more, and awareness training in prisons should be increased. We should consider integrating training packages into standard prison officer training.

The report was damning about the provision of social care for older prisoners:

“The lack of provision for essential social care for older prisoners, the confusion about who should be providing it, and the failure of so many authorities to accept responsibility for it, have been disgraceful.”

Those words describe the position appropriately. The Committee found evidence suggesting that current provision is sparse, variable and sometimes non-existent. It found some areas where social care was provided by charitable organisations or by prison officers, but it clearly highlights a fragmented and failing service.

Another concern is the release of older people to no fixed abode. It is deeply worrying when older prisoners are released to face homelessness. Around 85% of prisoners who are released find, or are helped to find, somewhere to live on release, but 15% do not receive help. That is not good enough. Release to no fixed abode undermines any progress that has been made towards resettlement, and will do nothing to help older prisoners to reduce reoffending.

I support the view that older prisoners who are frail and vulnerable should not be released to no fixed abode because there has been no housing referral, or because it has been delayed. I agree with the suggestion in the report that NOMS should ensure that all prisoners who require accommodation are referred to housing agencies in good time. Older prisoners have needs that are distinct from those of the rest of the prison population, and the Government should look seriously at the growth in the older prison population. It is disappointing that they do not agree with that view. I agree with the report that

“It is inconsistent for the Ministry of Justice to recognise both the growth in the older prisoner population and the severity of their needs and not to articulate a strategy”

to deal with the problem. I urge the Minister to look again at the report, and to consider a national strategy for the care of, and an appropriate regime for, older prisoners.

16:09

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Jeremy Wright)]

It is a great pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Amess. I thank the Justice Committee for the considerable hard work that has gone into both reports, and the Chairman, my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), for the way in which he presented the reports in this afternoon’s debate. I also welcome the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner)—it is good to see him in a full speaking role this afternoon. I am sure it will not be the last time.

Let me start with something that is perhaps obvious, but still worth saying: the Government are committed, of course, to ensuring that the criminal justice system is appropriate for all offenders. The Committee has highlighted the particular interests of two types of offenders, and I am grateful for its acknowledgment of some of the good work that has been undertaken in both those areas in recent years. However, it has also made it clear that there is more work to be done, which we agree with. I hope that the Government’s response showed how we are tackling those areas and recognised that there was more to do.

I begin with female offenders, on which there has been considerable debate this afternoon. I am almost tempted to conclude, given the balance of opinion in today’s debate—for my hon. Friends the Members for Shipley (Philip Davies) and for Bury North (Mr Nuttall), we are doing far too much for female offenders, and for one or two other contributors, we are doing far too little—that we may have got it almost exactly right, but I suspect that even that will not meet with approval from everyone in the Chamber this afternoon. However, as has been said, we have made it clear that we are committed to assisting female offenders to turn their lives around. To reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley, we are committed to doing so for male offenders, too.

A large part of what my hon. Friend was describing related to the sentencing regime, and I entirely agree with him and my hon. Friend the Member for Bury North that the sentencing regime should not treat women more leniently than men. It should pass the appropriate sentence in each individual case and that is what we expect sentencers to do, but sentencing in each case is a matter for the judiciary and for magistrates; it is not a matter for politicians. However, what we are concerned with is ensuring that, when the courts decide that someone, male or female, needs to go to prison, they do not go back to crime when they are released. On rehabilitation, which is I think where the burden of the Committee’s report was concentrated, it is right to recognise that different things work in the rehabilitation of different people. Distinct things can be done to rehabilitate female offenders, perhaps more so than male offenders.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

In our report, we made the point that smaller units, closer to the community, tend to work much better in improving the education and life opportunities of women in prison, and in reducing the rates of reoffending. I realise that that is a big change in the prison process, when we have a number of large institutions for women, but does the Minister have any specific plans to reduce the number of places in larger sections and bring in smaller units?

[Jeremy Wright]

As the hon. Gentleman knows, the Corston report’s recommendation that smaller units should replace women’s prisons was one of the few recommendations that the previous Labour Government did not accept. We think that it is important to have a balance of provision. The hon. Gentleman may know that we intend to trial a smaller unit on the outside of Styal prison. My right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed referred to Styal’s history and it is perhaps appropriate that we should choose Styal as the location for such an institution. We want to see exactly how that type of institution can perform. The intention will be that women who have the appropriate risk rating should be able to live in that type of environment, and work outside the prison walls but still have access to some facilities in the prison. We will want to test that, see how it works and draw what conclusions we can from it.

In the broader context, as others have said, we have set up an advisory board in relation to female offenders, which brings together key stakeholders and partners, for the first time, to provide expertise and challenge us as we deliver those objectives. My right hon. Friend was absolutely right that that will be effective only with the right kind of ministerial leadership. I pay tribute, as others have, to the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant), who initiated the process, and to my noble Friend Lord McNally, who continued it.

I am delighted that the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) will be continuing in that line. I know of his enthusiasm for the task and that he is keen to begin, although I note that he is not so keen to relieve me of the responsibility for speaking in this debate. None the less, he is very keen to begin the task. He has been listening to much of what we have said today, dividing his time between this debate and another that he has been obliged to attend. I know that he is keen to hear more from others about ideas that we can employ in order to pursue this agenda and, to answer concerns that others have raised, that he wishes to explore the opportunities for co-ordination across Government to ensure that the agenda is pursued elsewhere, too. He has begun by visiting HMP Send this week and will take on the cause with great enthusiasm.

Let me say something about our transforming rehabilitation reforms, which have been referred to. Those serving sentences of less than 12 months will, under the reforms, for the first time, be subject to statutory supervision, and all offenders will be subject to a licence period—or a combination of licence and supervision—of at least 12 months in the community. As we were discussing at some length earlier, proportionally more women than men are serving short sentences, so they will benefit particularly from that element of the reforms.

The right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) asked whether up-tariffing would be the result of that, and whether some sentencers would pass custodial sentences in the hope that offenders would receive the type of the support that they needed. It is important to remember that the supervision of community sentences will be delivered by the same providers under the same terms as the supervision provided for those released from short sentences. There will be no difference, if that is what the sentencer is interested in, in the level of support provided for someone receiving a short custodial sentence and someone placed under a community order. The sentencing guidelines will remain clear, as they should, that only when it is appropriate to do so should a custodial sentence be passed in any case.

To ensure that all future providers under our reforms take into account the specific needs of female offenders, we are amending the Offender Rehabilitation Bill to require the Secretary of State to ensure that contracts and service level agreements for the rehabilitation and supervision of offenders identify services intended to meet the particular needs of women. We will assess providers’ plans for female offenders and the plans will be placed in the public domain to ensure transparency. If providers are not delivering those requirements, they will be subject to contractual remedies. We will publish data on the effectiveness of those services in the autumn of 2016. That aligns with the way in which the competition process will work: providers are to be incentivised to work with all offenders, and not only the low-risk, easy-to-reach cohort.

I know that many people also have concerns about the future of the network of women’s community services under the programme. Therefore, I make it clear that in 2013-14, we have invested £5.8 million through probation trust contract and partnership arrangements on those services. We expect existing providers of women’s services to continue to receive funding from community rehabilitation companies until March 2015, assuming that performance and demand is sufficient. That sets the groundwork for the expansion of community support to women on release from short sentences in 2014 and beyond. We have also been working with women’s services and the voluntary sector more widely to help build capacity for the new commissioning landscape.

Our recently published review of the women’s custodial estate set out our different approach to managing female prisoners. We are making changes so that prisoners can serve their sentence as close to home as possible, allowing them to maintain crucial family relationships. All women’s prisons will become resettlement prisons and will have access to through-the-gate services. We are also setting up new community employment regimes aimed at getting female prisoners into work on release; we are improving access to interventions; we are establishing and testing open units such as the one that I described at HMP Styal and the one at Drake Hall; and we are setting up, we hope, commercial employment opportunities at Styal.

We are seeking, where appropriate, to divert women away from the criminal justice system. We are doing that through joint work and collaboration with other Departments and key stakeholders, not just on the advisory board, which the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark, will chair, but on the Cabinet’s Social Justice Committee. In relation to the point made by the hon. Member for Bridgend (Mrs Moon), we will also be working with the Department of Health to test a core model for liaison and diversion services at police stations and courts over the next two years for those with mental health problems, including many women and, one would hope, many women in precisely the circumstances that she so passionately described.

It is perhaps worth making a final point in relation to female offenders. I know that my right hon. Friend intends to proceed with our commitment to update the House in March of this year. That will include updates on a cross-Government basis.

Let me now deal with the topic of older prisoners and make it clear that the Government are dedicated to ensuring that prisoners of all ages benefit from a safe, secure, decent and productive prison environment. That includes the unique challenges posed by older prisoners. As many right hon. and hon. Members have said, that is the fastest-growing group within the prison population. I am pleased to say that some extremely good examples of best practice are already well established across the prison estate. I know that we need to do more, but perhaps it is worth dwelling for a moment on some specifics.

Wakefield prison has a registered general nurse whose specific responsibility is care for older prisoners, in addition to the medical services available to the general population. That provides older prisoners with access to a rolling programme of annual assessments and referrals to specialist services, including podiatry, physiotherapy and a specialist provider of dentures.

We should recognise the training and support already available for prison staff. The crime reduction charity Nacro has worked with the Department of Health to develop resources for staff working with older prisoners. Excellent work has been undertaken by RECOOP—Resettlement and Care of Older ex-Offenders and Prisoners. That national charity promotes the care, resettlement and rehabilitation of older prisoners, offenders and ex-offenders. Grant funding has allowed RECOOP to employ regional consultants to help to set up interventions and to build capacity and skills to work with older offenders. Right hon. and hon. Members have referred to other charities and organisations that also do excellent work.

However, I am well aware that such examples are not uniformly dispersed across the prison estate. That point, too, has been made. There have been cases in which operational or resource pressures have meant that the care offered to these offenders has dropped below the standards to which we aspire. We need, therefore, to do more to ensure that standards are achieved across the whole estate.

Two of the areas on which I want to focus our attention are the availability of suitable prison accommodation and regimes, and the joined-up provision of health and social care. On accommodation, I acknowledge that the fabric of some of our older prison buildings, such as Dartmoor, which the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) mentioned, does not enable us to best meet the needs of older prisoners, and work is ongoing across the estate to enhance services for all prisoners in line with the Equality Act 2010. For example, improvements are under way at the reception area in Leeds at a cost of approximately £4.8 million, and a new health care centre is being developed at Durham at a cost of approximately £3.4 million.

In addition, officials in the National Offender Management Service are developing a process to assess, across the estate, current accommodation for prisoners with specific needs. The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) raised that issue. It will involve a targeted approach, consistent with the levels of need likely to occur, and it should be completed by the end of 2014. The results of that survey will be used to direct further improvement. That, of course, is part of the reason why we believe that it is sensible to move from an older prison estate to a newer prison estate. It will simply be easier to deliver the type of accommodation that all of us in this Chamber agree is the right kind of accommodation and a better rehabilitative regime.

I direct right hon. and hon. Members’ attention to the 2014-15 service level agreements with all prisons. The National Offender Management Service has introduced two new commissioning intentions, which require prisons to assess the individual needs of all prisoners and ask them to state how they will meet those needs. That includes how the prisoners age and how that impacts on individual needs.

We recognise that more can be done to provide modified regimes for those who require them. I am pleased to be able to say that the National Offender Management Service will explore opportunities to adapt regimes in prisons where the needs of the population require that, and emulate the good practice highlighted in the Justice Committee’s report. That will include health and fitness, social and recreational activities, and support groups.

We expect that the Care Bill, which has been mentioned and is making its way through Parliament, will go some considerable way in supporting us, with our partners, to improve the provision of joined-up health and social care in prisons. The Bill will, for the first time, make it clear that local authorities in whose areas prisons are based will be responsible for the assessment and provision of social care for prisoners. We will be working with our partners in the Department of Health, NHS England and local authorities to develop policies on how that will work in practice, leading to the implementation of cross-agency guidance.

The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington asked me a number of what I might describe as process questions. If he will forgive me, I will not go through those now, but I will certainly write to him, setting out what we can, to help him on that. However, I will pick up now a couple of the points that he raised. He and others have raised legitimate questions about where funding will come from. As he says, we will have to discuss this with local authorities in more depth, but the Department of Health will be responsible for supplying the additional funding necessary to assist local authorities with that obligation. He and others made a point in relation to the ordinary residence rule. To be clear, the responsibility on local authorities will be for those prisoners located at a prison within their local authority area. I hope that that is of assistance and that it will mean that we can be confident of seeing, by 2015, real change on the matters that the Select Committee has, rightly, raised concerns about. As the Committee has said, this is an issue of real importance, and I welcome the interest of all those who have spoken here today and of other members of the Committee in it. I know that they will continue to engage with it.

I again thank all those who have spoken in the debate and the Select Committee for all its work. As the Chairman of the Committee is aware, I know, as a former member of the Committee, the hard work that goes into producing such a report, and it is appreciated. He and others will recognise that to reduce reoffending across the board, we must ensure that the criminal justice system is responsive to the needs of all, whether offenders are male or female, old or young.

16:27

[Sir Alan Beith]

I am very grateful to the Minister for the thoroughness of his response and his willingness to follow up on one or two points that hon. Members raised. I can now take the opportunity, which I missed earlier, of wishing the Minister of State, Ministry of Justice, my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), well in discharging his responsibilities in this area.

I cannot stress too strongly that the evidence that we received from people who had served in the previous Government was that, with the best will in the world, it took some significant effort to ensure that things happened in respect of women prisoners—of course, they are such a small minority of the total prison population—and that, in both these fields, there is plenty more work to be done, but there is welcome recognition by the Government that we have identified things that are important and need to be pursued.

Question put and agreed to.

16:28

Sitting adjourned.

Written Statements

Thursday 16th January 2014 Written Statements

Thursday 16 January 2014

Agriculture and Fisheries Council

Thursday 16th January 2014 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson)]

I represented the UK at the Agriculture and Fisheries Council on 16 December in Brussels. Richard Lochhead MSP, Alun Davies AM and Michelle O’Neill MLA also attended. I covered the agricultural issues while the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Camborne and Redruth (George Eustice), covered the fishery issues which were reported on in separate letters dated 20 December 2013 and the last three any other business items on nutrition and labelling, animal plant and control package: smarter rules for safer food, and market access from Russia.

The legislative “A” points were approved, which included the package of five common agricultural policy regulations. The four main regulations were published on 21 December, while a transitional regulation was published on 27 December. Also approved was the cohesion package on which I abstained. Germany and I voted against the extension of the scope of the European globalisation adjustment fund.

The non-legislative “A” points included a Council regulation to fix certain agricultural prices and refunds, which Germany and I abstained on.

Promotion of agricultural products

The Council noted the Commission’s proposal for a new regulation on promotion of agricultural products. I welcomed the focus on exports and simplification but queried the budget increase. The Commission stressed that its aim was to boost efficiency and value for money, including through producers involvement as they would have more incentive to put together good schemes if they were to bear more of the cost.

Any Other Business

National emissions ceilings directive

Germany requested that the Commission report to the Agriculture Council on the progress of its proposal to revise the national emissions ceilings directive. Germany was concerned by the potential impact of ammonia emission ceiling reductions on Europe’s agricultural industry. I supported the request. The Commission noted that the impacts on agriculture were fully considered within the Commission.

Organic agriculture

The Commission presented the results of its consultation on the future of organic agriculture regulation. It found that the majority of respondents were in favour of greater harmonisation and removing derogations from the legislation. I urged pragmatism and recommended focusing on opportunities for growth and exports including with China.

Dairy sector—September 2013 conference

The Commission presented the findings of its recent conference which considered the future of the dairy sector following the end of quotas in 2015. Many member states argued that while they were not calling for the return of quotas, they did see the case for some “collective management” of the sector or for greater focus on producer returns. I urged the EU not to move back towards market management, but to leave producers to take advantage of growing global demand for dairy products.

Local farming and direct sales labelling scheme

The Commission presented its report concluding that a specific, voluntary labelling scheme may help producers to market and sell their products locally and in short supply chains. The presidency urged member states to save discussion of this until early 2014 as the incoming Greek presidency had committed to taking this issue forward.

Rice: problems in the sector

Italy presented a paper highlighting the problems faced by the EU rice sector with significant increases of duty free imports from some countries, particularly Cambodia and Burma. Italy suggested it might be time to consider safeguard measures. The Commission assured the Council that it monitored the EU rice sector, but noted that the EU was not self-sufficient in rice, and it would be premature to consider safeguard measures.

Nutrition labelling

The Italian delegation introduced a paper expressing concerns about the UK’s voluntary front of pack nutrition labelling. They cited concerns over: disruption to the internal market, consumer confusion and incompatibility with European quality schemes. My hon. Friend clarified the UK’s position: the scheme was voluntary and experience over eight years of similar colour coded schemes by most domestic retailers had not caused any disruption to the internal market. However 17 member states supported Italy. The Commission in its response made clear that such voluntary schemes were left to the discretion of individual member states and that it would take action in any cases where the internal market did become seriously disrupted. The Commission reported that it had received assurances from the UK about the voluntary nature of the scheme and its monitoring arrangements.

Animal, plant and control package: smarter rules for safer food

The Council took note of the presidency’s progress report on the five elements of the smarter rules for safer food package. Member states intervened on a variety of issues in the package: a positive list of plant products allowed in order to give greater protection against imports of pests; concerns over the introduction of fees in the controls package; concerns with the high number of delegated acts and the value of merging separate pieces of legislation.

The Greek delegation informed the Council that the package would be a priority and hoped to produce a preliminary compromise text to enable the Italian presidency to begin negotiations with the European Parliament.

Market access to Russia for plants and plant products

The Commission updated the Council on negotiations with Russia on the export of plants and plant products from the EU. Russia had phytosanitary concerns and blocked imports of some plant products. Russia was, at the same time, insisting that the EU accept imports of some Russian products which the EU had phytosanitary concerns about. The Commission would continue with the negotiations, being “cautiously optimistic” that the export ban would be lifted in the near future.

NATO Parliamentary Assembly (Membership)

Thursday 16th January 2014 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)]

My hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth East (Mr Ellwood) has replaced my hon. Friend the Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) as a member of the United Kingdom delegation to the NATO Parliamentary Assembly.

National Crime Agency Remuneration Review Body

Thursday 16th January 2014 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)]

I am pleased to announce that the Prime Minister has appointed David Lebrecht as the chair of the new National Crime Agency (NCA) Remuneration Review Body until 31 August 2018, commencing 20 January 2014. Mr Lebrecht, who is currently an employment relations consultant, brings a wealth of experience to the role. He was previously the interim HR director (and before that head of employee relations) for British Airways, and a member of the Prison Service Pay Review Body.

I am also pleased to announce that I have appointed as members of the review body:

Dr Brian Bell, a Lecturer in Economics at the University of Oxford and a Tutorial Fellow at Lady Margaret Hall.

Elizabeth Bell, Group Talent Development Director at Kingfisher plc.

Patrick Stayt, a lay Member of the Office of Judicial Complaints and previously National Secretary of the Police Superintendents’ Association.

Heather Baily, who has recently concluded her role as a Deputy Chief Inspector in Ireland and was previously Deputy Chief Constable of Hertfordshire Police.

Christopher Pilgrim, HR Director at RWE NPower and a member of their senior management team.

These appointments will be to 31 August 2017, commencing 20 January 2014.

Subject to Parliament’s approval, the Police Negotiating Board will be abolished in 2014 and a Police Remuneration Review Body established. Once established, the NCA Remuneration Review Body will be abolished and the Police Remuneration Review Body will make recommendations on the remuneration both of police officers and NCA officers designated with operational powers. This successor body will be renamed the NCA and Police Remuneration Review Body.

The Prime Minister (in the case of the chair) and I (in the case of the members) have in the first instance, appointed these six individuals to the NCA Remuneration Review Body. We expect that they will take up their equivalent positions on the National Crime Agency and Police Remuneration Review Body when established.

These appointments have been made in accordance with the code of practice issued by the Commissioner for Public Appointments.

“Better Working with Disabled People: The Way Forward”

Thursday 16th January 2014 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Mike Penning)]

I am today publishing the latest part of our fulfilling potential cross-government disability strategy: “Better Working with Disabled People: The Way Forward”. This sets out our new plans for Government engagement with, and advice from, disabled people.

The UK has a proud history of furthering the rights of disabled people, but we know more needs to be done to realise the Government’s aim that disabled people should be enabled to participate in every aspect of society.

The new arrangements will build on the achievements of Equality 2025. The “Better Working with Disabled People” consultation, published in July 2013, sought views on how we can best do this. The responses to the consultation, and our extensive engagement with stakeholders, have helped us to shape the plans set out in “Better Working with Disabled People: The Way Forward”.

We aim to strengthen and broaden input to policy and strategy development from the lived experience of disabled people, and also from people with particular expertise on disability issues, in accordance with the principles of open policy making.

The new arrangements are intended to contribute towards meeting our obligation under the UN convention on the rights of disabled people to closely consult with, and actively involve, disabled people in decision-making processes relating to them.

We are establishing an engagement forum, the fulfilling potential forum, involving around 40 disability organisations, including regional representatives. The forum will meet quarterly to discuss and inform Government strategy. It will be co-chaired by the Minister of State for Disabled People and the Minister of State for Care and Support.

The work of the forum will be complemented by the introduction of the fulfilling potential policy advice service, a call-off list of disability experts who will advise Government policy makers. The management of the service will be contracted out, with the Office for Disability Issues in the Department for Work and Pensions managing the contract.

The first meeting of the fulfilling potential forum is expected to be in April 2014, and the fulfilling potential policy advice service should be operational by mid-2014.

I will place a copy of “Better Working with Disabled People: The Way Forward” in the House Library.

Grand Committee

Thursday 16th January 2014 Grand Committee

Thursday, 16 January 2014.

City of Bradford Metropolitan District

Thursday 16th January 2014 Grand Committee

Question for Short Debate

13:00

Asked by

[Baroness Eaton]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the opportunities and constraints for the wellbeing of the City of Bradford Metropolitan District.

[Baroness Eaton (Con)]

My Lords, Bradford is a unique and fascinating place, and the fact that so many of your Lordships have chosen to speak today is an indication that I am not the only Member of this House with a passionate interest in this metropolitan district. I thank all noble Lords for their support in speaking today.

The view of Bradford from those who do not know it first hand is coloured by a range of clichés and negative media stereotypes, many of which are anachronistic and often caricatured. However, of course the true picture of Bradford is more complex, more nuanced and certainly more positive than these stereotypes would have you believe.

The district is the fourth largest metropolitan district in England after Birmingham, Leeds and Sheffield. It is home to half a million people, a place characterised by diversity, huge contrasts in geography, wealth and built environment, communities of many cultures and ethnicities, and a place which typifies the complex range of socioeconomic, environmental and political problems and opportunities, which is the stuff of contemporary public policy.

What surprises many visitors and is perhaps unique among metropolitan districts is that two-thirds of the district is rural. The city of Bradford’s urban and cosmopolitan qualities contrast with, and complement those of, a number of vibrant towns and a host of Pennine villages. Furthermore, this diverse human settlement is set within a spectacular Yorkshire landscape of upland moors, wooded valleys and productive farmland. This multifaceted environment provides the public bodies within the district with distinct and complex planning and delivery challenges when attempting to balance the conflicting needs and interests of the economy, the environment and communities.

It is 12 years since the inner-city riots with which we are often still associated. In that time, our local economy has waxed and waned in line with national economic cycles, although underlying and positive structural changes have begun to take root. It is also noteworthy that during this period community relations have been mostly good and have improved, despite a dynamic picture of inward migration. The presence of many other, smaller communities and the growth of mixed ethnicity is resulting in one of the most diverse and cosmopolitan communities outside London.

Bradford is probably one of the few places where relations between different faith communities are such that the Council of Mosques has provided financial support to the Jewish community to enable it to complete major repairs to the synagogue. The development of good community relations is supported and enhanced by groups such as the charity Near Neighbours—I declare my interest as chairman—which works at grass-roots level, encouraging people from different ethnic groups to share in community activity.

Bradford’s population is now 524,600, and its growth is forecast to continue, reaching 640,000 by 2033. However, along with this dynamic population change, the district has significant economic inequalities. Eleven per cent of the population is in the most affluent decile and 40% is in the least affluent decile of the United Kingdom.

Bradford is a big economy, creating £8.3 billion of added value to the UK, forming the eighth largest economy in England and amounting to a fifth of West Yorkshire’s businesses and output. It has strengths across a range of sectors. The council and its business partners have agreed to promote it as “The Producer City”, providing a distinctive economic identity for Bradford based on real strengths in key industries and businesses across the district’s economy.

Bradford has a low-wage, low-skills economy, and over the next 10 years the working-age population of the district is projected to rise by 2,000 people per year. This population growth is driving a real need for jobs growth. To maintain current employment rates of 64.9%, an additional 10,000 people will have to find employment by 2021. Improving education and skills levels is essential to future prosperity.

The council is working with a range of business partners on the Get Bradford Working programme, investing in apprenticeships, skills development and the creation of industrial centres of excellence, all of which are paying dividends. We are seeing major companies now repaying this growing confidence by investing in major developments.

The Government are currently consulting on a West Yorkshire combined authority, which Bradford wishes to see progress. Work has now begun on the long-awaited £260 million Westfield shopping centre, and with the formation of the new private sector-led Producer City board there is increasing momentum for a significant upturn in the economy. Government support for Bradford’s economic ambition, and the work of the new Producer City board with the Leeds city region LEP, will be crucial. I therefore urge the Minister to extend Bradford’s city centre growth zone from December 2014 to March 2017. I also urge her to commit to a meeting with the Producer City board this year to explore what further support the Government might be able to offer Bradford’s economy, in particular the development of its engineering capacity.

Given the significant population growth in the Bradford district and the clear potential for significant economic growth, it is both surprising and disappointing that the key rail route through Bradford has not been included in the Government’s provisional plans for electrification between 2014 and 2019. Electrifying this route, which links Bradford with Leeds and Manchester and also provides a major commuter link with the towns along the Calder valley, would have a range of benefits for the wider region as well as for Bradford. These would include unlocking economic potential, reducing congestion on the M62 motorway and decongesting other major routes, and would also make a major contribution to carbon reduction. This line connects 2.5 million residents to Leeds, Bradford and Manchester, three of the UK’s largest cities.

Education standards in Bradford have historically been low, and this has held the district back economically. However, over the past decade and recently in particular, improvements in attainment have accelerated. The excellent partnership approach which includes community and faith schools, academies and free schools working together and challenging each other, has been praised and recognised by Sir Michael Wilshaw, head of Ofsted.

A considerable number of Roma families move to and settle in the Bradford district. Over 6,800 Slovakians and Czech Roma have established themselves in the district since 2000. Many of the migrants come to the district with low levels of educational attainment and little experience in the formal employment sector, along with huge health issues and large families. They therefore require extensive support to integrate. Levels of turbulence in these communities, due to instability of employment, have an impact on schools and other services. A national Roma integration strategy would enable the Government to influence the policy towards Roma in their countries of origin, as well as their integration in places such as Bradford. I urge the Minister to consider working with Bradford to develop an effective Roma integration strategy.

I hope the Minister will appreciate from the contributions she will hear today that there is a commitment from people and organisations in Bradford to use every opportunity to address the challenges facing them in a positive way. The requests I have made of Her Majesty’s Government would provide a very welcome helping hand.

13:10

[Lord Patel of Bradford (Lab)]

My Lords, I begin by congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, on providing the opportunity for us to focus our attention on the city of Bradford. It is very fitting that she has tabled this debate given her tireless years of service to Bradford, as a local councillor and then as leader of that council for a number of years. I also look forward to the maiden speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford.

Bradford is a great place. I came to live in the city at the age of one when my parents migrated to the UK from east Africa, so I have grown up in Bradford, I went to school there, and I have worked for most of my professional life there. Most importantly, I have life-long friends in Bradford and am proud to call it home. The city has had its ups and downs. To be brutally honest, the past few decades have not been kind to this once hugely prosperous city. It should be remembered that we were once the wool capital of the world: no more. The decline in that industry, however, is only part of the story.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, said, we have also suffered from negative media stereotypes. The burning of Salman Rushdie’s book in the late 1980s still haunts us. Racial tensions, which resulted in two major disturbances, led Bradford to being described as a city of segregated ethnic communities living “parallel lives”. No, these and other such stories have not helped us. However, we have worked hard to rise above this negativity, not only as a major and growing centre for manufacturing, with over 25,000 employees in that sector, but as a tourist destination. Besides the fact that we are blessed with beautiful and rugged rural areas, we became the first UNESCO City of Film with attractions such as the National Media Museum, Bradford City Park, the Alhambra Theatre and Cartwright Hall. Without doubt, Bradford also deserves the title of curry capital of the UK. Most recently, all our diverse communities came together, in a show of solidarity and cohesion, to give the English Defence League its marching orders when it had planned another of its disruptive marches in our city. That shows how far we have come.

However, we can only do so much. The economic climate over the past few decades has hit us hard, especially these past three or four years, by bringing us some of the most severe cuts to local authority spending and severely impacting our growth and redevelopment. High unemployment continues to be a persistent issue, especially for the growing population of young people who have also suffered from what were low, but are now thankfully improving, levels of educational attainment. We continue to have some of the most deprived areas in the country, with high rates of child poverty and infant mortality, and not surprisingly the gap between rich and poor is even greater. All these issues, coupled with the rise in fuel poverty and the number of food banks and stubbornly high levels of poor physical and mental health, pose many challenges for the city’s already stretched public services.

This is where the social capital of local people has been, and continues to be, key in tackling many of these issues. Many local people are already active in addressing these challenges. In fact, more than 20% of Bradford’s residents are engaged in volunteering, community groups or civic roles. Much of this crucial work is channelled through committed and hard-working voluntary sector services. I am proud to be patron of a number of these: for example, the Bradford Court Chaplaincy Service, the first multi-faith volunteer court service in the country; the Bridge project, which works with those misusing substances; Sharing Voices, a multi-ethnic mental health and well-being service; the Equity Partnership, which works with LGBT communities across the Yorkshire region; and Bradford Cyrenians, which for 40 years has been delivering services to homeless people. But they and others like them are struggling to keep delivering these invaluable services.

We all know that it is the small local agency, often supported by volunteers, which gives back to the local economy by creating jobs and providing local solutions to help those who are the most vulnerable find support while maintaining their independence. The local authority in Bradford has, to its credit, been innovative and creative with its support for these independent sector providers, but innovation and creativity can only go so far when you have had your budget cut ruthlessly and disproportionately. In view of the Government’s desire to promote localism and the concept of the big society, what further support are the Minister and the Government able to give to the city of Bradford to keep our crucial voluntary sector services delivering, developing and going?

13:14

[Lord Shutt of Greetland (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, for her passion and her balanced contribution in initiating this debate on Bradford. I, too, welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, and look forward to her first contribution in this House.

I was brought up in a place called Farsley in the borough of Pudsey, three miles from Bradford and five from Leeds. I have kept my eye on Leeds and Bradford over the years, even though I now live half way between Halifax and Huddersfield. I have watched the exit door of Bradford, and I give three examples.

There have been firms of solicitors in Bradford—of national repute—which have said “Oh, we are going to open up in Leeds”—not open a branch in Leeds but shut the door in Bradford and take the whole place to Leeds. That has not been helpful to Bradford. When I was a lad there were five building societies based in what is now the Metropolitan Borough of Bradford. One remained, the Bradford Permanent, which merged with the Huddersfield and is now called the Yorkshire Building Society, the second largest in Britain. It put up a new headquarters a couple of miles the Huddersfield side of Bradford. Only last year, it announced expansion plans which involved putting 800 people in the city of Leeds. Is this the first move out? It is not good for Bradford. My third point concerns the threat of the National Media Museum leaving Bradford; many noble Lords may recall a short debate about that in this place. I have highlighted three developments that have not been good for Bradford, and that is in addition to the issue of manufacturing, which others are going to speak about.

This debate is about opportunities and constraints. One opportunity which is coming is HS2. Would you believe that it terminates in Leeds? One leg goes to Manchester and the north-west, one leg to Leeds. Compare and contrast: the Manchester terminus is to be parallel to Manchester Piccadilly station, and there is a spur which will enable trains to get to Manchester Airport, Liverpool, Runcorn, Warrington, Preston, et cetera. On the Yorkshire side we are to have a hammerhead terminal in Leeds that will not connect with Leeds City station. It will mean legging it somewhere between a quarter-mile and a half-mile from the London train. I do not believe that this is good for Bradford, and neither is it good for the rest of West Yorkshire, whether it is Halifax, Huddersfield, Keighley, Skipton, Harrogate or Wakefield. There is a danger, if it goes ahead, that the railway system will be ossified, so that there can never be through routes. This is important: it would mean an incredible constraint on connectivity in West Yorkshire, and it is something that government can do something about.

13:17

[The Archbishop of York]

My Lords, I, too, give thanks for the speech given by the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton.

At the last census, 84% of people in Bradford considered their level of well-being to be good or very good. That is 3% ahead of the national average, which is not surprising—Bradford is in “God’s own county” of Yorkshire. The statistics show the resilience of the people of Bradford. Bradford does not need pity, it needs positive commitment. Bradford is often spoken about from a distance, or as an illustration of certain national problems. The church, however, has a different perspective, an insider perspective. In 2005 the churches in Bradford set up an organisation called Bradford Churches for Dialogue and Diversity, to help bring together the different communities to learn from and share with each other. The government-funded Near Neighbours programme has provided small grants to many local projects. One of these brought together Muslims, Christians and Jews in a Muslim majority neighbourhood to share meals. This led to the Muslim community helping a local synagogue raise funds to repair a leaking roof. This is about restoring not just the fabric of a building but the fabric of a neighbourhood, of civil society.

Bradford is the most youthful city in the country: 37.4% are under 25, compared with a national average of 32.1%. But what are the prospects for these young people? At Bradford Church of England Academy, where I was a month ago, young people are doing my Young Leaders programme, unlocking their potential within their local communities. It is fantastic to see the energy going into a church club for older people. All kinds of projects are being done by young people. A lunch club has been created.

These young people have so much to offer, but in parts of the city, Church Urban Fund research indicates that child poverty rates are as high as 42%. What will happen to those children, for example, if the Government abolish, as they plan to do, the ring-fenced funding given to local councils for crisis payments and community care grants? The link between poor health, poor housing and poverty is of particular concern, with just over a quarter of the district’s children classed as living in poverty. There are 287 families across the district currently affected by the housing benefit cap. The average reduction to housing benefit for those families is £49.29, and needs to be made up from other benefits to avoid rent arrears. What sense does that make?

On the matter of benefits, why is it that in Bradford, 1,130 local disabled people have fallen foul of jobcentre sanctions and been left without any income for periods of between four and 13 weeks. That is astonishing to me.

Bradford’s population is forecast to grow at 8.5% over the next 10 years, and around 2,200 additional new homes will need to be built each year to meet the projected growth in households—a major challenge. It is estimated that up to 25% of all new homes will need to be affordable homes. With the right investment, this will mean much-needed new jobs.

Bradford is proudly resistant to those who would seek to sow community discord, but high levels of unemployment are clearly a danger. Long-term projections indicate the importance of immediate action and investment. Just to maintain Bradford’s current employment rate of 65.6%, an additional 10,000 people will need to find employment by 2021. This is possible—with work on the Westfield centre beginning, there are new opportunities—but the city will still need 31,000 new jobs to bring it up to the national average. Jobs in Bradford tend to be low paid. It will be important for those in work to be paid a living wage.

I am very much looking forward to hearing the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, give her maiden speech. Her experience as director of the north-west rail development company qualifies her well to encourage investment in a northern city. We in the Church of England are creating a new Diocese of West Yorkshire and the Dales. This will create neighbourhoods that are wonderful.

Noble Lords, Government, business, civil society, churches and all religious communities: I put it to you that this is a key moment for Bradford. I hope that today’s debate will lead to more understanding and more investment in this vibrant city. Long live Bradford!

13:22

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lords, Lord Patel and Lord Shutt, and the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York in contributing to this debate initiated by my noble friend Lady Eaton. She and I were leaders of metropolitan authorities—as some have mentioned, I was the leader in Trafford, in Greater Manchester, for many years. I never thought for a moment that I would be following my noble friend into your Lordships’ House, but it is a pleasure to do so. I also mention in their absence my sponsors, my noble friends Lord Howard of Lympne and Lady Morris of Bolton, whose support and assistance over the years have been so much appreciated. I was so pleased that they agreed to be my sponsors when I was introduced to your Lordships’ House.

My journey has taken me, as an Irish immigrant, first to the north-east of England and then to the north-west, where I have lived my whole life—apart from a short diversion to Huddersfield, which, given that we are discussing Bradford, is not too far away. The north-west is the second largest economy outside the south-east, but in productivity terms it lags behind by some £30 billion. My point today is not to decry the success of London and the south-east, but to explore how northern metropolitan authorities and areas can contribute to the prosperity of this country now that economic growth is well under way.

We have led the way in the north-west in innovation, enterprise and industry. I mention at this point the great Alan Turing, whom we must thank, first for our freedom, through the work that he did with the German-encrypted Enigma machine, which helped to give us our successes in the Second World War; and secondly, for developing the Manchester Mark 1 computer, which of course has led the way in the advances in technology that we enjoy today. I would also like to mention graphene, which is a recent discovery by two Nobel Prize-winning scientists in Manchester. It was very pleasing that the Chancellor saw fit to fund, in part, the National Graphene Institute in Manchester. Given the noble Lord who is following me, I might also add our achievements in sport. We believe very strongly that the success of the Commonwealth Games in Manchester in 2001 in no small part paved the way for our successes in our bid to host the Olympic Games here in London.

Historically, we have a vibrant manufacturing sector. If any of your Lordships are partial to the humble baked bean, they will have been canned in Wigan—the beans rather than your Lordships. If any of your Lordships are partial to Guinness, it will have been canned in Runcorn. If any of your Lordships ever travel on the London Underground, the escalator chains will have been manufactured in Wythenshawe and the drive shafts in Rochdale. There is a great deal of industry and manufacturing coming out of the north-west.

The Government have addressed some of the structural issues already mentioned, in terms of people accessing jobs and growth, and particularly in terms of connectivity and infrastructure. We have also seen the start of some great supply-side reforms—the reductions in corporation tax, the lending for business, the reductions in fuel duty and also taking a number of people out of income tax altogether—I think a quarter of a million in the north-west. These have greatly helped in starting that journey back to growth. There are also challenges. My noble friend Lord Freud mentioned yesterday that the north is actually outpacing other areas in terms of employment growth, but we are still very reliant on the public sector in the north-west and in other parts of northern metropolitan areas for economic growth.

I notice that my time has already run out. It just remains for me to say that the north-west is a very competitive area in which to locate business, and it is a great place to live. Finally, I thank Members from all sides of your Lordships’ House who have been so friendly and welcoming to me, and of course all the staff who have been very patient with me, as I frequently get lost in your Lordships’ House. Thank you.

13:28

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

My Lords, it is always a privilege and a pleasure to follow a maiden speech, particularly one of such quality and eloquence as that which we have just heard from the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford. She comes to the House with a distinguished record in local government as a former leader of Trafford Council, having represented Altrincham on that authority from 2002 to 2011.

The noble Baroness is, as we have just heard, a powerful advocate for the north-west, and supports major infrastructure projects in the region, including the Atlantic Gateway—a long-term plan for development between Manchester and Liverpool along the Manchester ship canal—the north-west rail hub and, I am delighted to say, High Speed 2. Her previous career includes two years as vice-chairman of the Association of Greater Manchester Authorities, membership of the Greater Manchester Police Authority, and chair of the Heritage Lottery Fund in the north-west.

Before getting involved in local government, the noble Baroness worked as a nutritionist for a charity that provided specialist support and therapy to sufferers of multiple sclerosis. In the 2010 election, Susan Williams came within just 92 votes of winning the Bolton West parliamentary constituency. I am sure that I speak for all your Lordships when I say that the House of Commons’ loss was undoubtedly our gain, and we look forward to many more speeches from her in future.

Crossing the Pennines, I warmly congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, on securing this debate on Bradford and for attracting such an impressive array of speakers. Few of us will be able to do justice to this great city in four minutes. Had I more time, I too would have spoken about the need for trans-Pennine railway electrification, and I probably would have said a word about the splendid Keighley & Worth Valley Railway, the original home in “The Railway Children”.

My contribution today is as a trustee of the Science Museum, which is the parent of Bradford’s National Media Museum, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Shutt. The museum attracts almost 500,000 visitors a year and is the second most-visited attraction in Yorkshire. It contains some of the finest and most compelling visual material to be found anywhere in the world, such as the oldest known surviving negative, John Logie Baird’s original television apparatus and the camera that made the earliest moving pictures in Britain. The museum is the reason why Bradford received City of Film status from UNESCO. According to Bradford Council, it has an economic impact of £24 million a year, and it does particularly well in attracting 42,000 visits in education groups, including 20% from black and minority ethnic backgrounds and 44% from the lower socioeconomic groups.

Despite all this, in the summer of 2013 there was real doubt about the future of the museum. This started in April when, following cuts in grant in aid to all the national museums, the Science Museum Group was asked by the DCMS to model further cuts of 5%, 10% and 15% for the 2015-16 spending review. The director of the Science Museum made it clear that if the cuts were at either of the two higher levels, one of the museums in the north of England—Bradford, the National Railway Museum in York or the Manchester Museum of Science and Industry—would have to close. Most media comment centred on Bradford as the most likely candidate.

The reaction was immense. There was a public rally at the museum on 8 June and a public meeting at Bradford’s city hall on 11 June, chaired by the leader of the council. At the media museum’s 30th birthday celebrations over the following weekend, 1,000 visitors expressed their support, many with birthday cards. There was an Adjournment debate in the Commons and a Select Committee inquiry. On 26 June came the welcome news that the cut would not be 10% or 15% but 5%. It was therefore possible for the director to say that the museum would stay open.

While it is still going to be very tough, the Science Museum Group has renewed its commitment to Bradford. Provided that more support is forthcoming from bodies such as the city council, the University of Bradford, Bradford College, local schools and the BBC, whose historic collection was gifted to the museum in 2013, the museum should have a brighter future. It is also looking for a commercial film operator to help sustain the cultural programme, such as film festivals.

There is no doubt that the threat of closure was a real wake-up call, not just for the Government, who realised—perhaps a bit late in the day—how vital our national museums are to the life and well-being of the nation, but also to all the local interests in and around Bradford. I hope that they now realise that the future of the National Media Museum depends to a very considerable extent on them and on what they can do to support it.

13:33

[Baroness Scott of Needham Market (LD)]

My Lords, the Committee may be wondering why a woman from deepest Suffolk is speaking in a debate on Bradford. The answer lies in the genes: my father was a Bradford man and, thanks to the wonderful work of the West Yorkshire Archive Service, I know that generations of my ancestors, going back over 300 years, came from the area around Bradford, Leeds, Halifax and Huddersfield. These towns were part of the backbone of the industrial revolution, and in the case of my ancestors it was the textile industry that occupied them. In my ancestry are wool combers, sorters, cloth dressers, weavers, dyers, spinners, carders, warp dressers and weft men, and this continued right up to the death of my uncle in the early 1970s. During the 1940s and 1950s, these jobs were done increasingly by immigrants from the Indian subcontinent who were prepared to tolerate the low wages and poor conditions in the industry. By the 1970s and 1980, instead of the people coming to the jobs, the jobs went to the people—most of the textile and garment industry moved to the Far East, where labour was cheap.

I mention that because there is growing evidence that we should be rethinking all this. The textile industry can now be almost totally automated; fewer people are required, and those who are required are highly skilled. Every process, from design to manufacture and packaging, can be computerised and automated. Digital connections mean that small start-up businesses can almost instantly be connected to markets, research and suppliers from right across the globe.

The competitive advantage of cheap labour does not necessarily exist anymore. If noble Lords are not convinced, I can point to Apple and General Electric, both of which are bringing their manufacturing capability back to the United States. Reshoring, the opposite of offshoring, is a growing reality, and I can point noble Lords to the recent work by our colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Giddens. In the textile industry, Jaeger has restarted UK production, having ceased in 2000. The fact is that wages in Asia have risen while they have stagnated in Europe and the US. The head of a company manufacturing household textiles in both the UK and China recently commented that it is his UK plant that is more productive, due to the highly skilled workforce and the fluctuations in currencies.

Transport costs are going up all the time, which makes reshoring increasingly viable. Producing closer to the markets also has the advantage of shortening order times, giving a flexibility that many big retailers particularly welcome. Customers and businesses are becoming more aware of sustainability arguments and the ethical considerations, which were so graphically highlighted by the terrible loss of life in the garment factory in Bangladesh. The UK is currently still uncompetitive in cheap mass-produced markets but has a big advantage in quality.

In Seoul, John Lewis is now one of the most popular stores in the city. Its quilts and bedding are being made in Lancashire, and the managing director points to the design, quality and overall value that are leading to their success. The “Made in Britain” label is definitely seen as a plus, and retailers such as Marks & Spencer are committed to promoting it. The textile trade body is promoting UK manufacture under its Let’s Make it Here initiative, which links companies at all stages of the supply chain.

Vince Cable has talked about the growth of reshoring. The textile industry is ripe for this, and I would appreciate assurances from the Minister that its importance is being taken seriously. The Government have a role in promotional activities, helping start-ups and ensuring that capital, and the right skills, are available. Bradford still has a small but thriving textile sector, but it could do so much more. How magnificent it would be if Bradford, with all its industrial heritage, could once again become a thriving centre for textile manufacturing.

13:38

[Baroness Warwick of Undercliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I am delighted to be able to contribute to this afternoon’s debate. I share with the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, a Bradford upbringing, and I am grateful for her informative and balanced outline of the challenges facing the district today. I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, on a fascinating and uplifting maiden speech.

As others have said, in recent decades Bradford has been badly hit by economic deprivation and social unrest. However, I feel strongly that there is cause for optimism today when we talk about Bradford. That optimism is there when I talk to people in the town and, perhaps surprisingly, it is often there in the local press. Among the car crashes and court cases covered by the Bradford Telegraph & Argus, space is also given to regeneration and community projects, to construction starting this month on the long-delayed Westfield shopping centre and to the encouraging early outcomes from the Get Bradford Working initiative. Even the national media sometimes take note. I was struck by a story that I read before Christmas, which has also been mentioned by the noble Baroness and the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York, about the town’s last remaining synagogue, a grade II listed building that a year ago was leaking badly and in danger of being sold off, which would have forced the small congregation to travel the 10 miles to Leeds to worship. Yet, one year on, the Bradford reform synagogue’s future is looking more secure because of the intervention of Bradford’s Muslim community. Some of its most influential members helped the synagogue’s chairman to mount a successful lottery bid, and that money will now help renovate the building. Thanks to the relationships formed through their fundraising effort, the communities now do other things together. Once renovated, the synagogue plans to open for school visits throughout the week.

I, too, believe passionately that education has a key role to play in helping to address the challenges of integration faced by the district’s different communities. I want to focus my remaining time on the tremendous educational opportunities in Bradford, not least the role the university is playing in raising aspirations locally. The university’s three-year partnership with University Academy Keighley has seen a significant increase in the percentage of students gaining five A* to C grade qualifications, including in English and maths.

Last year, Bradford University opened a £1.6 million centre to raise attainment in the key science, technology, engineering and maths subjects for schoolchildren, not only in the district but beyond—one of the few STEM-specific facilities in the country. In December it launched a Centre of Excellence for Environmental Technologies in collaboration with Bradford Council and Buttershaw Business & Enterprise College, as part of the Get Bradford Working programme. It is supported by many local businesses, including Yorkshire Water. They all want to build a highly skilled young workforce which will attract more companies and investment into the area.

The university is one of the largest employers in the area. It plays a lead role in the Yorkshire Innovation Fund, in which local universities help small to medium-sized enterprises to develop new and improved products and services through R&D and innovation. One example is the university’s groundbreaking Centre for Pharmaceutical Engineering Science, which is helping to improve the competitiveness of South Yorkshire SMEs through the use of green processing technologies.

I also want to mention Bradford College, the fourth-largest college in the country and the largest provider of HE outside the university sector in England, which plays its part in transforming lives, communities and the economy. The college’s new multimillion pound campus, being built in the heart of Bradford, is due to be completed this autumn and will add to the regeneration of the city.

I take heart from the assiduous work of the university in raising aspirations and attainment and aiding the prosperity of Bradford, and from the story of the synagogue and the mosque communities supporting each other. In 2014, Bradford is showing that it is a place where people of different faiths and backgrounds can come together, to learn, to work and to do business, for the benefit of all the people of the district.

13:42

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, on securing this rather novel debate about the well-being of the City of Bradford Metropolitan District. We also congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, on a fine maiden speech.

From the briefings we have received and the contributions made today, we can be optimistic about the city’s well-being in the future. Under the strong leadership of Labour’s Councillor David Green, Bradford has a council that is working towards the vision of a place that is prosperous, creative, diverse and inclusive, and it is delivering this by working with partners and citizens. As we have heard today, there have been and remain major challenges to the city. The challenges are made more difficult by the draconian and disproportionate cut in funding it has endured.

Surely one of the tasks of government, whatever the overall level of the local government finance settlement, is that its distribution should be fair. Why, in the two years ending in March 2013, should funding have fallen by over twice as much in Bradford as the average fall for the 10 least-deprived authorities? The council has responded to this by operating in new ways, commissioning services locally from a range of providers, including local businesses and community and voluntary organisations. The Joseph Rowntree Foundation report on the Bradford Social Future Awards scheme is a helpful reminder that relatively small amounts of funding can make a real difference to engaging local people with entrepreneurial solutions to local social problems.

This debate highlights Bradford’s ambition for regeneration and the new Producer City strategy, building on its manufacturing strength. But the facts—Bradford having the fifth-highest concentration of manufacturing employment in the UK; its emphasis on advanced engineering and manufacturing; it being the location of major global companies—amply justify the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, seeking exploration with the Government of how this capacity might be enhanced. She also made the case for the city centre growth zone to be extended.

We have heard that economic growth would be improved, congestion reduced and carbon reduction facilitated if the Calder valley line were to be included in the provisional electrification plans being considered for the period 2019-24. It is asserted that the line currently connects 2.5 million residents, 75,000 businesses, 120 multinationals and three of the largest cities in the UK—Leeds, Manchester and Bradford. Given the age of some of the rolling stock on this line and the scale of the catchment area, why is it not being considered for electrification as part of this programme?

We know that the council and the community have had to face difficult issues, especially around safeguarding children, but it seems to be doing this by confronting the problems and seeking to learn from past failures. Transforming educational outcomes is a key imperative for the council to support the local economy and to ensure a future for the young population of the city. We have heard that not all engage with the educational opportunities available and the particular problems arising from the growing Slovakian Roma community to which the noble Baroness referred.

We should be proud as a country to be a safe haven for those who suffer persecution in their homeland. Living in Luton, I know the joys of diversity and the challenges of integration which it can bring: challenges for local services, school places and housing; challenges of poverty; and exploitation in employment. The call for help from government to work with Bradford to develop an integrated strategy deserves a positive response. We should also acknowledge the role of interfaith work in helping to tackle such challenges.

We should wish Bradford well and all those engaged in seeking to improve the well-being of its communities.

13:47

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, I should declare from the start that I am from Beeston, Notts, and not from Beeston just outside Leeds, just in case anybody is listening to me and wondering why I do not know more about what is clearly a fantastic part of our country.

I join others in congratulating my noble friend Lady Eaton on securing this debate and on the clear and eloquent way in which she introduced it. She gave us a very full picture of Bradford. I was talking to somebody the other day about Bradford and asked them how they would describe it to me. They said that it was a beautiful place with beautiful people. I think that that came through from what my noble friend said, as did her pride in the city.

I welcome my noble friend Lady Williams of Trafford and congratulate her on her excellent maiden speech. I look forward to hearing more from her—very soon, I hope—in the main Chamber, where more noble Lords will receive the benefit of her wide knowledge and great expertise on a range of matters.

We have heard today from several noble Lords who have expert views on the opportunities and challenges in Bradford, expert views grounded in their local knowledge and experience. For me, this exemplifies an important principle of this Government’s policy, which is that local areas should be able to decide for themselves what goes on in their communities and how they want their area to grow and develop. That is a far more effective way to help local areas thrive than for central government to dictate how they should go about things. We have given local areas the powers and the freedoms to take control of their future, from having greater control over planning decisions to retaining some business rates.

We in central government must create the right economic conditions for places to thrive. While we still have a way to go, we are on the right track, as the recent growth forecasts and this week’s inflation figures show. Beyond the national economy, we must also provide a range of opportunities that will work for different parts of the UK to address their specific needs and help them realise their full potential; for example, by rebalancing the economy away from dependence on the public sector and instead attracting private sector investment to start up businesses and create jobs. That is particularly important in the north, and it is relevant to today’s debate about Bradford.

I was pleased to hear my noble friend Lady Eaton talk about the strong signs of growth in Bradford. It is worth noting that growth in Bradford has outstripped regional and national averages since 2008. As has already been acknowledged, the first way in which we are helping in this area is through the regional growth fund. Projects in Bradford have secured almost £22 million, including about £17 million for the council-led city centre growth initiative.

The noble Baroness, Lady Warwick of Undercliffe, referred to the Westfield shopping centre. I know that it has been delayed and this has led to much frustration being felt in the city until now, but once it is off the ground it will be a very iconic new development in Bradford. My noble friend raised some concerns about potential delays. This is a very complex project, and I understand that officials in my department are working with Bradford council to address some of the issues in order to ensure a speedy resolution.

My noble friend also asked if I would meet with the Bradford Producer City board to discuss this and other matters. I would certainly encourage the board to work closely with the lead city region LEP on their strategic economic plan, and I gather from the comments I hear from my noble friend that that is happening. I would certainly be happy to meet them in addition, and we will take that forward and make sure that it progresses.

Beyond the regional growth fund, Bradford was also one of the first places to benefit from the city deals as part of the Leeds agreement. These 10-year deals mean that areas have much greater certainty and confidence to meet the longer-term challenges they face. In this region, the city deal will tackle some of the systemic issues which have held Bradford back in the past. This again demonstrates the importance of giving local people who understand those challenges the ability to deal with them. It was the local leaders who emphasised transport and skills and education as the main priorities for investment.

My noble friend Lord Shutt raised HS2, which clearly we believe will bring tremendous opportunities to the area. It is a massive investment in transport. The new combined authority to which other noble Lords have referred will be the best way to make the most of these opportunities, ensuring that all local communities are connected to the line. He raised the specific issue of the hammerhead terminal. I will raise this on his behalf with my noble friend Lady Kramer and come back to him with a specific answer, because I am not equipped to do so today.

My noble friend Lord Shutt also raised the issue of electrification on the Calder valley line, as did other noble Lords. It is worth pointing out that this Government have done more on electrification than previous Governments. We have funded Network Rail to the tune of about £130 million to improve speed and capacity on that particular line and on the Hope valley line, and the further details of the schemes are currently being worked out. My noble friend is right that the Calder valley line was not named among the eight specific lines for electrification, but the task force is free to consider the case for any route in the north. More details will be announced shortly, and I urge local leaders in Bradford to ensure that they are talking to the right people at Network Rail and the Department for Transport about this.

Beyond those transport matters, the city deal provided a £1 billion fund to improve public transport, outside of heavy rail and the highways network. Beyond that there is a further £1 billion for capital funds via the local enterprise partnership and the local growth deal. All of these are to ensure that Bradford gains from the advantages of HS2, and that in that part of that country—as, indeed, in other parts—there is the connectivity which is so important for people to access work and other opportunities.

I go back to the city deal and the decisions of local leaders as to their priorities. The other area was education and skills, which are of course vital not just to give every child the best chance in life to succeed but because without a skilled and trained workforce, Bradford will lag behind other cities. My noble friend Lady Scott of Needham Market stressed that point when she talked about reshoring and the return of industry to the Bradford area, which is very welcome.

The cornerstone of the city deal is a commitment that every young person in the Leeds city region has access to a job, training, apprenticeship, volunteering or work experience. It is important for me to emphasise that in response to the comments of the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of York. The aim is to create 20,000 new opportunities, which will tackle the problem of young people not in education, employment or training. The Department for Education is also working closely with Bradford local authority, schools and the dioceses to improve school performance. There are now 25 academies open, with another nine in development, helping to drive improvement in some schools with the lowest performance. I was also pleased to hear what the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, said, about the work happening with the University of Bradford. Much is going on in that area. We must ensure that Bradford has a highly skilled workforce and that the young people in Bradford receive the right level of education, which is so important to their future.

I also want to pay tribute to the strength of local communities in Bradford. The noble Lord, Lord Patel, among other noble Lords, spoke powerfully about that. Cities are far more than just their economies, and Bradford is not just culturally and socially rich but has a proud tradition of diverse communities working together across a range of issues. We have had some powerful examples highlighted by my noble friend Lady Eaton, the most reverend Primate and others. That is incredibly heartening.

In the context of communities, my noble friend Lady Eaton raised the issue of integration of Roma immigrants in Bradford and suggested the need for a national Roma integration strategy. The Government believe that the issue is better served through our broader strategies to promote social inclusion and improve education, but I would certainly be happy to discuss the matter further with my noble friend.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, referred to the local government finance settlement. Our approach to local government finance means change in the way that central government works with local authorities, freeing them from dependence on central grants and requiring them to meet centrally imposed targets, but of course the Government still protect those councils which are more dependent on government grant. It is worth noting that Bradford still has a spending power of £2,350 per head, which is greater than the national average, reflecting some of the greater demands on services in that area.

I pay tribute to the local authority in Bradford for the effort that it is making to improve the delivery of its services and to save money, although I certainly urge it to go further, as I do with all local authorities. I point to one specific different approach to local government financing, which I think answers one of the points made by the most reverend Primate about the desperate need of some families. That is the troubled families programme. That is one way in which we are changing the way in which we finance and approach difficult and entrenched issues, and we are making a huge amount of progress in that field.

The noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, said that there is lots to take heart from today, and I agree. There is also lots to be optimistic about. My noble friend Lady Scott of Needham Market gave us one example when she talked about reshoring. This is a city that is proud of its identity. I was really pleased to hear the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, talk about the National Media Museum. As someone who has worked a lot in the media industry, I am ashamed to admit that I have never visited the museum, but I will, now that I know just how amazing it is. I only hope that the people who run the National Media Museum will help the people of Bradford to tell a greater and more powerful story about that wonderful city.

Animal Welfare: Methods of Slaughter

Thursday 16th January 2014 Grand Committee

Question for Short Debate

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, there are many speakers in the next debate. When the clock says “2”, the speaker has had two minutes.

14:02

Asked by

[Lord Trees]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the ethical, legal and religious factors that influence the way in which some animals are slaughtered in the United Kingdom.

[Lord Trees (CB)]

My Lords, in my 45 years as a veterinary surgeon I have witnessed the abattoir slaughter of many animals with and without stunning, but when I first witnessed slaughter without stunning it was profoundly disturbing. The animal staggered from its killing crate, blood gushing from the neck wound, and it did not collapse into unconsciousness for some considerable time. It is that experience and others since that have caused me to bring this debate.

It might be useful initially to cover the legal framework surrounding the slaughter of animals—and I am going to concentrate on cattle and sheep. The legal framework is straightforward. In abattoirs, the death of animals is due to exsanguination following severance of the major blood vessels in the neck. It is illegal in the UK and throughout the EU to do that without first rendering animals insensible by stunning—except that that requirement for pre-stunning is exempted for those of Muslim and Jewish faiths to produce either respectively halal meat or kosher meat by shechita. I intend to talk about stunning and non-stunning in the rest of my speech.

Noble Lords have heard my reactions. Let me quote the reactions of a female, Jewish vet, who recently sent me an e-mail. She said:

“Without a doubt, during my almost twenty years as a vet, I have never witnessed anything as horrific as Shechita slaughter. That horror lives fresh in my mind today and having been raised and now living in a Kosher home I do not and never have eaten a piece of Kosher meat since the day I witnessed this barbaric practice. Indeed I have seen much suffering and many severe injuries in the animals I have treated over the years, but nothing comes close to the unnecessary and brutal suffering that these animals experience at the very end of their lives”.

Note that that is from a qualified, official veterinary surgeon who has done a lot of meat hygiene work and has witnessed the slaughter of many animals involving both stunning and non-stunning.

Let me emphasise that I recognise that both the great faiths in question have serious concerns for animal welfare. I also make it quite clear that I defend and respect the freedom of expression of all groups, religious or non-religious, within reasonable limits acceptable to our society. Nevertheless, it is my contention that unnecessary suffering is being caused to a very substantial number of animals by slaughter without stunning. I want to address this under three headings: inconsistency, injury and insult.

In terms of inconsistency, we rightly pride ourselves here in Britain on our animal welfare regulations and our humaneness. Recently, it has been made an offence to dock a puppy dog’s tail. That is something that involved a snip with a pair of scissors which, on a week-old pup, evoked at most a slight yelp. We have made that illegal—and I am happy with that law—yet we allow adult animals to have their throats cut without rendering them unconscious first. Is that a consistent approach to humaneness?

I turn to biological tissue injury. The Farm Animal Welfare Council, in its report of 2003, considered the whole issue of slaughter without stunning in great detail. Considering the injury to the neck involved in throat-cutting, the council noted that this involved the incision of skin, muscle, trachea, oesophagus, both jugular veins, both carotid arteries, major nerve trunks and several other nerves. It concluded that,

“such a massive injury would result in very significant pain and distress in the period before insensibility supervenes”.

The FAWC report went on to refer to evidence of the time taken to lose brain responsiveness in different species following the neck cut. It noted that in sheep it was five to 10 seconds; in adult cattle, with excellent technique, it was a minimum of 22 to 40 seconds; and in calves it was 10 to 120 seconds. Twenty seconds is a long time if you are suffering pain. The FAWC report—and remember that this is the Government’s independent advisory committee—recommended in its 2003 report that,

“the Government should repeal the current exemption”

from pre-stunning.

I turn to insult. By this I mean tissue damage and particularly the induction of pain—I mean a biological insult. Determining the perception of pain can be very difficult, I acknowledge, but some recent research has been done on calves in New Zealand which I would argue provides strong evidence that pain is perceived by a neck cut and that stunning abrogates that. In this work, electrophysiological measurements were taken of brain signals, for which there was supportive evidence of their being associated with pain. A neck cut without pre-stunning caused pain signals lasting for up to two minutes. Such signals did not occur when stunning was used before the neck cut. Finally, if the neck cut was made and then animals were stunned, the pain signals occurring after the cut were immediately abolished. Every attempt was made in this work to mimic slaughter without stunning but true shechita could not be performed because, ironically, the animals had to be gently anaesthetised to conform to experimental animal laws and thus could not pass for human consumption, as shechita demands. So I would argue that it is likely that severe pain is caused by slaughter without stunning, albeit for a relatively short period, but perhaps for as much as two minutes in cattle.

How many animals are involved in slaughter without stunning? The latest available survey by the Food Standards Agency, in 2011, indicates that approximately 70,000 cattle are slaughtered in the UK each year without stunning, mainly by shechita, and that about 1.5 million sheep are despatched without stunning, mainly for halal consumption. I should point out that the majority of sheep that are killed for halal purposes in the UK are pre-stunned, but that still leaves the significant minority of 1.5 million that I have referred to. Thus I contend that, given the nature of the biological insult and the numbers involved, slaughter without stunning is a major, if not the major animal welfare issue in the United Kingdom today. A further important fact is that much of the meat from non-stunned slaughter goes into the food chain for mainstream consumers. I suggest that consumers can justifiably expect to be informed if the normal legally required form of humane slaughter has not been used.

All the independent welfare bodies advocate stunning before slaughter—FAWC, the British Veterinary Association, the Federation of Veterinarians of Europe, the RSPCA and the Humane Slaughter Association—and furthermore, the food-quality assurance schemes such as red tractor and the Soil Association do not permit non-stun slaughter. In Europe, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland and Iceland have disallowed non-stun slaughter, and New Zealand does not permit the non-stun abattoir slaughter of mammals. Significantly, New Zealand exports large amounts of sheep meat that has been reversibly stunned and certified as halal to Muslim communities in Asia and the Middle East.

The EU is currently conducting a study on providing consumers with the relevant information on the stunning of animals by labelling of meat products. In the UK, the beef and lamb trade organisation EBLEX is working on the issue of clear labelling with halal producers. Will the Government support measures to label meat appropriately to enable consumers to make informed choices?

I make it clear that I am not asking in this debate for non-stun slaughter to be banned. I am not a believer in bans; I would rather that society collectively arrived at decisions about what is acceptable and what is not. However, I sincerely ask the Muslim and Jewish communities and their leaders to reflect and consider whether ancient practices, for which there were good reasons many hundreds of years ago, are necessary today. There are non-lethal, non-invasive methods of stunning, and even if there is disagreement on the extent or duration of pain perception, is it not time to adopt stunning to preclude the possibility of unnecessary suffering—as some Muslim food authorities have allowed?

14:12

[Baroness Fookes (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my animal welfare interest as set out in the register, and I thank the noble Lord for introducing this very important subject, which worried me considerably when I was a young MP in the other place. Certainly, given the opportunity at that time, I would have said, “Ban the slaughter of all animals that are not pre-stunned—no exceptions”. One gets a little more tolerant as years go by, but I still think that a great many measures could be taken that could help in the situation as so vividly described by the noble Lord.

I will put several propositions to the Minister. First, I hope that he—if his department does not do so already—will enter into constructive, friendly dialogues with the Muslim and Jewish communities to see if there is not some consensus or way of going forward as outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Trees. I realise that this may be a particular problem for the Jewish authorities. I must say at this point how much I commend the Muslim community for having so many of its animals slaughtered with pre-stunning. That is a great development and I am happy to pay public tribute to that community.

However, given that we may not get complete consensus, will my noble friend look at the possibility of stunning immediately after the cut is made, which would obviate some of the suffering? Finally, I take particular exception that a lot of meat that is not used for the religious communities comes on to the market without being labelled. If we are to have some rights, that is a right I should like for myself. I do not wish to eat meat that has not been pre-stunned, and I have the right to have the meat very clearly labelled.

14:14

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare an interest. I am a meat-eater, and I am personally offended if expected to eat meat from non-stunned food production animals. As such, I have no problem whatever with religious slaughter, but I do not wish to eat non-stunned meat, and therefore it should be labelled. It should be labelled where born, raised, slaughtered and the method of slaughter. That is perfectly acceptable information to be put on a label for consumers.

One of the problems with this issue is that there is no central authority for halal meat. The rules vary around the world, so it cannot be policed. All New Zealand lamb entering the UK is classified as halal. It is all pre-stunned before slaughter. There is not a problem. Over my years as a Minister in MAFF and Defra, and as the FSA chair, I visited dozens of abattoirs. The FSA is only responsible for the enforcement of animal welfare regulations as a contractor to Defra, as the Minister will make clear. It is not a food safety issue.

I want to elaborate a bit on the figures given by the noble Lord, Lord Trees, with a one-week survey from September 2011 which was in an open board paper of May 2012. Some 43,000 cattle were slaughtered, 1,700 halal, 84% of which were pre-stunned; 307,000 sheep and goats were slaughtered, 154,000 halal, 81% pre-stunned; and 16 million chickens were slaughtered, 4.7 million halal, 88% pre-stunned. I have not got time to give the Jewish figures. So the non-stunned totals for halal and Jewish that one week were 3% of the cattle, 10% of the sheep and 4% of the poultry. They are very small numbers of non-stunned animals. The trouble is that too much of the extra goes into the general food chain and customers are not aware. The simple answer to this is labelling. Consumers have the right to know the method of slaughter, and that should be a given, in my view.

14:16

[Baroness Parminter (LD)]

My Lords, I wholeheartedly support the case made by the noble Lord, Lord Trees, and the evidence that he outlined that slaughter by throat-cutting without pre-stunning is absolutely unacceptable in animal welfare terms. However, like other speakers, time is short, and therefore the important issue for me today is to put on record that, yes, we must respect the rights of religious communities, but equally we must respect the rights of consumers for them to be able to make informed choices about the food they eat.

At present, a concerned consumer can go and buy red tractor meat or freedom food meat, or go into Waitrose, where all meat is pre-stunned, or if they are in Southall they can go into the McDonald’s and buy a halal burger which is pre-stunned. However, there are millions of animals slaughtered in the UK without pre-stunning, as the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, has outlined. With the Muslim and the Jewish community only comprising about 4% to 5% of the population, that means a vast percentage of people in this country are unwittingly buying food which has been slaughtered without pre-stunning.

It is an incredibly timely debate today. It is surprising that we have not debated it more frequently in this House, but it is timely because at this very moment the regulations are being discussed in the European Parliament. Those certainly should help consumers make informed choices about the food they buy, and they could do even more, if they included mandatory labelling of the slaughter methods, by exception—that is, only the meat that is slaughtered without pre-stunning requires labelling.

I therefore add my voice to that of the noble Lord, Lord Trees, in asking the Minister what discussions the Government have had with the European Commission on the study it is commissioning at the present time, due out in April, into the effectiveness and applicability of labelling meat products on the methods of slaughter. If those draft proposals were to emerge as a result of that study, would my Government support, as I do, the EU-wide mandatory labelling of non-pre-stunned meat?

14:19

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as I breed sheep. I have to admit that I try to shut out the fact that some of them have to go to market for slaughter. I feel this is something that the general public do not think much about, as long as they have their burgers, steaks and chicken tikka masala. I take part in this short debate on behalf of the animals. I ask that religious leaders—who have traditions—look at the welfare of the animals that give them food. I ask them whether the practice of killing the animals is the best that can be done to relieve the suffering. Animals must sense a horror of going to a slaughterhouse, as has been shown when some animals make violent attempts to escape.

I have been involved with the legislation concerning female mutilation—circumcision. This is a barbaric practice of mutilation of young girls without anaesthetic, all because of some people’s traditions and customs. Animals which are hung upside down and have their throats cut without stunning or anaesthetic must also be terrified. Do the proprietors of these customs realise the cruelty they are inflicting?

The Jewish method of slaughter, shechita, requires animals not to be stunned before slaughter. Recent data collected by the EU Dialrel project show that 100% of the animals and birds slaughtered by the UK abattoirs service for the production of kosher meat were slaughtered without prior stunning. At four establishments, 1,314, or 3%, of cattle and calves were slaughtered by the Jewish shechita method, with 10% of these stunned immediately after bleeding. Does that mean they are still alive after bleeding? These figures were published by the Food Standards Agency in 2012. The National Animal Welfare Advisory Committee of New Zealand recommended a dispensation for kosher slaughter in 2001, but the new code does not allow any exemptions. Among the countries which have banned shechita are Iceland, Norway and Sweden. I hope the Jewish community will see the light—that the animals which give us so much need respect when they have to die.

14:21

[Lord Sheikh (Con)]

My Lords, I speak as a Muslim who consumes halal meat regularly.

Islam forbids the mistreatment of animals; the welfare of animals is enshrined in Muslim beliefs. The Prophet Mohammed—peace be upon him—has said:

“A good deed done to an animal is like a good deed done to a human being, while an act of cruelty to an animal is as bad as cruelty to a human being”.

Islam permits the slaughter of animals for food, but dictates that such slaughter must be exercised humanely. There has never been any conclusive scientific evidence to suggest that religious slaughter is less humane than conventional mechanical methods. The controversy revolves primarily around the issue of stunning. Exemption from stunning is allowed for halal and kosher slaughter. In halal slaughter the animal ceases to feel pain due to the immediate brain starvation of blood and oxygen. For the first few seconds after the incision is made, the animal does not feel any pain. This is followed by a few seconds of deep unconsciousness as large quantities of blood are drained from the body. Thereafter, readings indicate no pain at all.

It is important to consider that prohibiting halal meat would have profound social and economic implications. There are now 2.7 million Muslims in the United Kingdom, 4.8% of the population. Halal meat accounts for between 10% and 15% of UK meat sales; some of this meat is, however, pre-stunned. People from all religions and backgrounds now choose halal as an alternatively produced meat.

I want to see a rigorous code of conduct and an efficient system of self-regulation. This would reassure non-Muslims that such animals are being respected and standards are being adhered to. I would also like a full and transparent system of labelling for all meats, so that the consumer can make an informed decision about the meat they buy. Labelling should not be confined to religiously slaughtered meat. Finally, Islamic leaders have asked the Jewish community for guidance on this, and I hope they can work together.

14:24

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, what other religion argues that its animals should not work on the Sabbath? And we do not “seethe the kid in his mother’s milk” because that seems cruel somehow. I would argue that the notion of animal protection is stronger in Judaism than in any other world religion.

I want to speak purely as a scientist. We have heard a number of assertions here which are not scientific. With all due respect to the noble Lord, Lord Trees, death is not caused by exsanguination; it is due to interruption of the blood supply to the brain, which is immediate and has been measured. The problem with EEG measurements—electrode recording—is that they have been shown to be unsound. Indeed, the only way that you could detect pain would be by positron emission scanning of the brain, which clearly does not show any activity at all within two seconds once the blood supply has been cut. I would also argue that shechita is a much more humane method than stunning. Contrary to what some have said, it is a better method of killing animals because there is less suffering. Animals have to be calm and they are not manhandled roughly.

The noble Lord, Lord Trees, is not the only one who has been to an abattoir. They are not pleasant places. It is never pleasant to see any kind of animal killed under any circumstances, but the truth is that under the Home Office Act we would not be allowed to slaughter laboratory animals with stunning because it would not be regarded as a proper way of culling an animal in a laboratory. It would have to be done by a method which is much closer to cutting the blood supply to the brain.

I emphasise that what has been said about pain is another assumption. Of course animals may move after the brain is severed but the brain itself does not perceive pain if it is damaged and, in fact, none of the organs below the skin has pain fibres. You have some pain fibres in your trachea but they are very small. The evidence that animals suffer severe pain after one cut with an extremely sharp knife is extremely arguable. The truth is that, once you are unconscious, nobody knows what the perception of death or pain is.

14:26

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I do not disagree with the labelling of meat. Jews do it already for the kosher food trade. There are a number of legal but unpleasant methods of mechanical stunning and, if meat is to be labelled, it should all be labelled alongside that produced from humane religious slaughter. These methods include shooting, mostly of hunting and game birds; a captive bolt gun to the skull for cows and sheep; chickens shackled by their ankles and dipped in a water bath that has an electric current running through it; herding pigs into a room and gassing them; and trapping and clubbing, which are mostly used in hunting.

It is important to be honest about the incidents of mis-stunning that are recorded. The European Food Safety Authority’s report, Welfare Aspects of Animal Stunning and Killing Methods, found that the failure rate for penetrating captive bolt stunning in the non-kosher slaughter of cattle may be as high as 6.6%—the noble Lord, Lord Winston, says it is 8%—and that, for non-penetrating captive bolt stunning and electric stunning, it can rise to as high as 31%. The percentages of mis-stuns far exceed the total quantity of animals slaughtered for the Jewish community. Every year, millions of animals across Europe are mis-stunned and left in great distress. I say: label all this meat, and that would deal with the problem raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rooker.

Two million cattle, 8 million pigs and 9 million sheep and lambs are slaughtered every year. Of those, the Jewish community slaughters only 90,000 red-meat animals. If you round that to the nearest percentage point, it is 0%. Similarly, every year 750 million birds are slaughtered, of which the Jewish community slaughters maybe half a million—a fraction of a fraction of 1%.

A new European Commission report published on 19 December 2013 on the various stunning methods for poultry concludes that, although there are serious animal welfare concerns about the water-bath stunning of poultry, more humane methods are not “economically viable”.

14:29

[Baroness Flather (CB)]

My Lords, first I must confess that I am no expert, but I wanted to come to this debate partly to say what I feel but also to hear what all the experts were going to say. This has been a very distressing and confusing debate. On the one hand the noble Lord, Lord Trees, has told us that stunning is essential, and on the other we have had the noble Lord, Lord Winston, tell us that it really is not. I do not know what to believe.

I have been here in my adopted country off and on for most of my life, since 1947, and all the time we have been gradually moving towards looking after everyone, whether they are animals, women or people needing equality. All those issues have been moving forward, and it has been a fight to get to various points that are important. That underpins the values of this society.

I do not think that the British people are much worried by other people’s faith. They do not seem to be much worried by their own; why would they take much notice of other people’s? I am not in the least concerned about other people’s faiths, but practice is another issue. I hope that any practice that is not in keeping with the ethical values of British society is carefully considered.

We have heard some differing views today. I hope that this will all be put together and looked at carefully. The labelling issue is extremely important because at least we will know what we are buying. I have been buying halal meat because I have found it to be very good; I say that openly. Now I will be worried because I do not know whether it has been done with pain to the animal or with no pain.

I am concerned about many things, and I think that all of us in this country need to watch for changes that take us in directions that we never wanted to go in, especially—the minutes do not seem to be passing.

[A noble Lord]

The Clock is not working.

[Baroness Flather]

So how long have I been speaking? Too long! How wonderful. I want to say one last thing, which is not on the animal issue: when I read about the Islamic Society at Leicester University being allowed to separate girls and boys at a meeting, it breaks my heart. We have worked terribly hard for equality and for animal welfare. Please let us keep those things in mind and not allow this country to go in that direction.

14:32

[Baroness Hodgson of Abinger (Con)]

I declare an interest in that I was a member of the Farm Animal Welfare Council, although not at the time of the report that the noble Lord, Lord Trees, referred to. I thank the noble Lord for raising this important subject, which we all recognise arouses the strongest feelings. Mahatma Gandhi is reported to have said, “The measure of a civilisation is how it treats its weakest members”. Without wishing to be accused of sounding too anthropomorphic, it is in that context that I view this discussion.

The demise of local slaughterhouses in the UK means that animals now often have to travel a long way for slaughter. By the time that an animal in the UK reaches its final destination, it is often tired, stressed, confused by the unfamiliarity and frightened by the smell, so the loss of consciousness should be instantaneous. Bill Riley, a past president of the British Veterinary Association, has expressed the view that slaughter without stunning causes suffering, a view echoed by the Farm Animal Welfare Council. I am told that Islamic rules for halal meat can be satisfied with pre-stunned animals, with 80% of UK halal meat now produced this way, so perhaps we could persuade them to make this mandatory, as has been done in Denmark and New Zealand. I understand that kosher meat does not permit pre-stunning, so the question is how to stop the animal suffering. If an animal is not cut correctly, it can take several minutes to die.

While some people choose to eat kosher or halal meat, as Masood Khawaja, the president of the Halal Food Authority, has recognised, others have a right to choose not to eat it, and I therefore echo the comments of others about having it labelled.

I have the greatest respect for those of different faiths and beliefs but I feel that I must speak up for the voiceless. Please let us prioritise kindness towards animals, consider how this affects them and do everything possible to minimise their fear and suffering.

14:34

[Baroness Deech (CB)]

I wish to dwell on the selectivity in the Question as regards “some” animals. Ethical, religious and legal factors should be universally applied and not selective. This is a country in which fishing is a national pastime. Fish die from being left to suffocate and being gutted, which takes quite a while. We shoot foxes and trap them. We cull badgers by shooting and perhaps gassing them. We shoot stags and pheasants. We decapitate rabbits. Millions of lobsters have their claws bound and are thrown into boiling water where they thrash for a long time. Chickens and turkeys are swept through an electrically charged water bath and then are immersed in scalding water but it frequently goes wrong. It has been found that 26% of turkeys and one-third of chickens probably enter the scalding water while still alive and sensible.

Stunning cattle is vaunted as superior to Jewish slaughter, but it frequently goes wrong. The Jewish method ensures immediate cerebral perfusion and is irreversible. No electric prods are used and one animal is not killed in the presence of another. I am not religious in my attitude to food but I greatly respect the attitude of those who are orthodox and their religious slaughtermen, who regard the killing of animals as an act that should be not only humane but infused with respect and reverence, remembering at all times the gravity of what they do and never becoming slapdash or hardened. This attitude should be more widespread, so that we do not see newspaper reports of deliberate mistreatment of animals in abattoirs for fun.

The European Food Safety Authority found that about 12 million cows suffer from failed stunning. That greatly exceeds the entire annual quantity of cattle slaughtered for the Jewish religious community, which is a few thousand. There should be more focus on what goes wrong in stunning and the cruelty inflicted on other animals, and less pointing the finger at the Jewish few thousand if we are to be fair and ethical in our worries.

14:36

[Lord Gold (Con)]

Let me first declare an interest. I am an observant Jew who eats only kosher meat, meat that has been killed by religious slaughter. I am not as observant as the next speaker, but I have an interest in allowing me and my co-religionists to practise our religion. I am sure that Rabbi Sacks—the noble Lord, Lord Sacks—will say a little about kosher meat in that respect. As other speakers have said, and as the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, has just made clear, the number of animals slaughtered for kosher meat without stunning is very small indeed.

The focus of this debate has not been on the effects of stunning and how it goes wrong. In researching for today’s debate, I have been horrified at some of the things that go wrong. The Vegetarians International Voice for Animals, which is opposed to religious slaughter, states:

“Tens of millions of animals are being ineffectively stunned and are regaining consciousness while they bleed to death”.

That is a horrific number.

On looking at the legal position, European Council regulations recognise that the stunning methods listed in their own literature are not the only methods. Those intimately involved in this work believe and argue that Jewish religious slaughter, properly undertaken and as described by the noble Lord, Lord Winston, also constitutes acceptable stunning because it instantly cuts off the blood supply to the brain. That comes within the definition of stunning provided in the regulations. The definition is,

“any intentionally induced process which causes loss of consciousness and sensibility without pain, including any process resulting in instantaneous death”.

I understand that, properly undertaken, that is exactly what Jewish religious slaughter seeks to achieve.

The welfare of the animal pre-slaughter is paramount in the Jewish religion. Any animal or bird which is even slightly harmed before slaughter is not considered suitable for kosher consumption. Special care is taken to ensure that the animal is calm before slaughter. The use of electric prods and the like is absolutely prohibited. It is also the case that the European regulations expressly respect the freedom of religion and the right to manifest religion or belief in worship, teaching, practice and observance, as enshrined in Article 10 of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union which states:

“Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. This right includes freedom to change religion or belief and freedom”—

[Baroness Northover]

I remind the noble Lord that we are in a timed debate and he is already 50% over, if my maths is right.

[Lord Gold]

I am so sorry, I will stop there. I have made my position clear.

14:39

[Lord Sacks (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome this short debate and thank the noble Lord, Lord Trees, for initiating it, because it provides an opportunity to clarify certain matters about the killing of animals which I believe are still not understood.

I declare an interest, having been for 22 years until recently the chair of the Rabbinical Commission for the Licensing of Shochetim, the body responsible for the supervision of every act of animal killing done in this country under Jewish law. This body exists because for us animal welfare is a matter of high religious principle, which we take with the utmost seriousness. This is why we insist on long years of training, spiritual as well as practical, before anyone can be qualified to kill animals. In Britain, every shochet is licensed, every licence needs annual renewal, and their work is regularly supervised and reviewed.

Shechita itself, the act of animal killing, is designed to minimise animal pain. The animal must be killed by a single cut with an instrument of surgical sharpness, and in the absence of anything that might impede its smooth and swift motion. The cut achieves three things: it stuns, kills and exsanguinates in a single act. We believe that this is the most humane, or a most humane method of animal slaughter. Quite apart from the fact that other methods are not permitted by Jewish law, we have doubts about their effectiveness. Pre-stunning by captive bolt, as your Lordships have heard, often fails at the first attempt. According to the European Food Safety Authority’s report in 2004, the failure of penetrating and non-penetrating captive bolts affects around 10 million animals, causing the animal grave distress.

In Britain, some 3 million cows annually are affected by these failures, compared to the 20,000 cows killed annually by shechita. The pain caused to animals by the use of pre-stunning methods vastly outweighs that caused by shechita, even were it the case that shechita did cause extra moments of pain. However, we are not convinced that such is the case. The failure rates of pre-stunning, and the inconclusive and highly challenged nature of some of the experimental studies done in this field, should give us pause. Therefore, if a case is made for labelling meat to indicate how the animal was killed, this must apply to all methods of slaughter, not just to some. I hope therefore that the Jewish community will continue to work with the Government to ensure that shechita continues to the highest standards of concern for the welfare of animals, which should rightly be the concern of us all.

14:42

[Lord Grantchester (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Trees, for introducing this debate today and declare my interest as a dairy farmer. Science does not find it easy to adjudicate on welfare claims, especially as the need for individual handling on a flock or herd animal seems to contravene a general legal and cultural requirement to reduce avoidable stress and pain at slaughter.

The EU regulation came into force in January 2013, allowing slaughter without stunning in accordance with religious practices to continue. However, individual member states may impose stricter rules. A consultation on new domestic regulations to implement this regulation ended in October 2012. Can the Minister tell us what point his Department’s dialogue with stakeholders has reached? What discussions are currently ongoing with the Commission? Are the Government waiting for a resolution to be achieved in Europe first, before coming forward with proposals here in the UK? The industry is pushing forward with proposals while Defra appears reticent. Could the Minister undertake at least to publish the results of the department’s consultation, now closed over 12 months ago?

Compromises have been reached in other jurisdictions which are being echoed here by industry, such as additional veterinary presence at non-stun slaughter and post-cut stunning. Has the department had discussions on these matters with interested parties and religious and cultural leaders, and what stage have any discussions reached? New Zealand has managed to achieve agreement among the communities through their leaders. Is this the favoured way forward for the Government?

EBLEX and the Food Standards Agency have come forward with some very interesting statistics indicating that non-stun slaughter of sheep and goats has increased by some 70% over the past 10 years, even though the number of animals not stunned prior to slaughter is low: 3% of cattle, 10% of sheep and goats, and 4% of poultry. Yet the communities consuming the excepted meat are much smaller than these figures would suggest.

Much of the meat from animals slaughtered by religious methods is not sold as such because it comes from the wrong cut of meat. This raises serious questions for labelling, and labelling must inform the consumer in a non-pejorative way. I recognise the complexities surrounding labelling but what is the Government’s approach to this? Other countries seem to have been able to settle this issue. Can the Minister say when his Government will come forward with their proposals?

14:45

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Trees, for securing a debate on this very important issue, and I thank all noble Lords for concisely making some really important and informative points on all sides of the argument.

This is a subject in which I am intensely interested. Indeed, I should start by saying that we are completely committed to improving standards of animal welfare, including welfare at slaughter. I should highlight that my response on behalf of the Government applies only to England. The devolved authorities are responsible for their own animal welfare policy.

In 2012, in England, 764 million poultry, 8.4 million sheep, 8.1 million pigs and 1.4 million cattle were slaughtered. Given the sheer numbers involved, it is right that we take the welfare of animals at slaughter very seriously. The public rightly expect the Government to ensure that appropriate welfare measures are in place. In late 2012, we consulted on the best way to implement the new EU Regulation 1099/2009 on the protection of animals at the time of killing.

After careful consideration of responses, we decided to retain all existing national rules protecting the welfare of animals at killing, including those on religious slaughter, where they provided greater protection than the EU regulation. We will bring forward new secondary legislation soon to consolidate these national rules with the new requirements under the EU regulation. In coming to that decision, the Government assessed the key factors—legal, ethical and religious—raised in this debate. In answer to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, I anticipate laying the regulations in April.

As regards the legal factors, Council Regulation 1099/2009 provides for the protection of animals at the time of slaughter and came into effect on 1 January last year. It aims to ensure that animals are spared any avoidable pain, distress or suffering at the time of slaughter and it therefore requires that animals are stunned before they are killed. The only exception, as this debate has widely covered, is where animals are slaughtered according to religious rites.

The EU regulation also requires religious slaughter to take place only in an approved slaughterhouse and it allows member states to introduce additional national rules for religious slaughter. It is on this basis that we will retain our existing national rules on religious slaughter in the new domestic regulations and provide more extensive welfare protection to animals slaughtered in accordance with religious rites than that provided by the EU regulation.

Our existing national rules provide greater protection than those contained in the EU regulation in relation to, for example, cattle restraints, the method of killing and the handling of animals. We will keep our rule on “standstill time”, which means that animals must not be moved after the neck is cut until they are unconscious, and in any event not before a minimum period depending on the species.

It is worth saying that our stricter national rules take into account human rights legislation, including Article 9 of the European Convention on Human Rights, the right to freedom of religion and the freedom to manifest one’s religion or beliefs, and Article 14, prohibiting discrimination on grounds of race or religion.

The consumption of meat is a matter of personal choice. Those who choose to eat meat expect animals to be treated humanely when they are slaughtered. This is reflected in both EU and domestic legislation, which require that animals are spared any avoidable pain, distress or suffering both when they are handled and at the time of slaughter. As the noble Lord, Lord Trees, said, the Farm Animal Welfare Council’s 2003 report on the welfare of farmed animals at slaughter proposed that non-stun slaughter should be banned on the basis that it caused unnecessary suffering. That view needs to be balanced against the rights of the Jewish and Muslim communities to eat meat prepared in accordance with their religious beliefs. To insist on pre-stun slaughter would also effectively deny Jews and Muslims access to meat slaughtered in this country.

While the Government would prefer to see all animals stunned before slaughter, we respect the rights of Jewish and Muslim communities to eat meat prepared in accordance with their religious beliefs. It is worth noting that the term “religious slaughter” does not automatically mean that the animals are slaughtered without being stunned. As noble Lords have mentioned, some halal meat comes from animals that are stunned before slaughter. My noble friend Lady Fookes asked: why not require post-cut stunning? As we have seen, this is a very complex subject, but I understand that animals subject to post-cut stunning would no longer be acceptable to some religious communities.

The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, the noble Lord, Lord Palmer, and my noble friend Lord Gold referred to mis-stuns of cattle in conventional slaughtering. All animals that are mis-stunned must be immediately re-stunned, and operators are required by law to check that stuns are effective. That process is checked by independent vets.

The noble Lords, Lord Trees, Lord Rooker and Lord Grantchester, and my noble friends Lady Fookes, Lady Parminter, Lord Sheikh and Lord Palmer all spoke about labelling. The Government are aware of concern about non-stunned meat being sold on to the general meat market. We agree with noble Lords who have made the point that consumers should have the information to make an informed choice. It has to be said that there are some practical difficulties in identifying the method of slaughter for all meat from the point of source to the point of consumption, so the European Commission, which is well aware of our view, has commissioned a study on the labelling of meat from non-stunned animals. We await the results of that study, which are due shortly. We will look carefully at what options are available for providing information to consumers in the light of the study, and I am sure that noble Lords will want to revert to this subject when we have those results.

We remain committed to improving the welfare of animals at slaughter and, as my noble friend Lady Fookes proposed, to a continuing dialogue with all those concerned, particularly on the issues raised in this debate.

14:53

Sitting suspended.

Business: International Competitiveness

Thursday 16th January 2014 Grand Committee

Question for Short Debate

15:00

Asked by

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what direct measures they are taking to promote enterprise and the international competitiveness of British business.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, I ask this Question today to call attention to and encourage the measures that the Government are taking to promote our international competitiveness. This is a huge subject, and I will not talk much about the excellent work done by our ambassadors, UKTI, and by our Prime Minister to improve exports to China, Russia and so on, as I know that other noble Lords will do that. I will focus on three key drivers of enterprise and competitiveness: tax and regulation—we need fewer, better and clearer regulations and a mindset that encourages enterprise; infrastructure; and education. These are critical to a skilled workforce.

Economic advances stem from ideas developed by individuals and by private companies. When government has sought to take a direct hand in business, the results have often been disappointing. But government can and must provide a sound macroeconomic framework, sensible policies on tax and regulation, sound legal, competitive and educational structures and a good transport system. If policies in these areas are unwise, business finds it much harder to succeed. Enterprise and industry is also the source of the wealth on which ultimately everything else depends. That basic fact is sometimes overlooked. Schools, health, defence and welfare are important, but the resources available are dependent on the wealth that the business sector creates.

I come to this subject as someone who has spent many years working for a British company, Tesco, which has been one of the major commercial successes of the past 20 years. As a civil servant I led the deregulation initiative under my noble friend Lord Heseltine. I hope that my continuing business interests, which are recorded in the register, will keep me up to date in this House.

I begin with tax and regulation. As regards macroeconomics, the Chancellor has adopted the right strategy in rebalancing Britain away from reliance on debt and deficit. The deficit is declining rapidly as a proportion of GDP and we now have 30 million people in work. More important, from my perspective, is that for every one job lost in the public sector, four new jobs have been created in the private sector since 2010.

To match other countries in competitiveness, we must keep business headquarters in Britain. In my experience, philanthropy, R&D and a focus on a country’s interests all go with the headquarters, so it is excellent news that WPP, the advertising giant, has returned from Dublin to London. I welcome the new regime for taxing companies’ overseas operations and the Patent Box. They will help us to keep here companies such as GSK and ARM, which exports the chips for the iPhone to China. Best of all is the policy to reduce corporation tax; to help us to compete I would like to see it even lower.

We also need a regime that helps the 4.9 million small businesses in the UK. What the Government are already doing is not very well known: £2,000 off national insurance; an allowance to boost jobs from this April; no national insurance charge at all from next April for under-21s who earn less than £813 a week; a £25,000 increase in the investment allowance for plant and machinery until 2015; £150 million in start-up loans—a long list. For the high street, which is close to my own heart, 360,000 small businesses pay no rates at all because of the doubling of business rate relief.

I am the president of EuroCommerce, the EU-wide association of 6 million retailers and wholesalers. For us, the most important driver of enterprise is the EU single market. We also work hard to open up world trade, and I was delighted at the progress made at Bali, which included changes to border processes worth billions of pounds in saved time. I offer many thanks to my noble friend Lord Green, who did so much to make this happen.

I turn to the vexed subject of red tape. I know from my time in government, in Brussels and, indeed, my weeks in this House that everyone believes passionately in their own proposed regulations. However, the cumulative effect, especially on small business, can be disastrous and enforcement a further burden. Often, our regulators are judge, jury, scribe and enforcer, and so frightened of the media that they take a heavy-handed approach.

We have a programme of deregulation, but to make a real impact on small business, we have to change the mindset in the public sector from bureaucracy to customer focus and the elimination of wasteful error. We have to do less and champion simplicity—fewer, clearer laws, forms and penalties and better process using simple IT, including apps. Tesco taught me a lot about cost control. A process that saved one second at the checkout saved the company £2 million. We learnt lessons from complaints as well.

My second theme is infrastructure and the investment we need in our proverbial roofs. Some great things are being done. Crossrail is fantastic—although you never hear about it, possibly because it has admirable cross-party support. It is a £15 billion project and is estimated to bring benefits of £42 billion. The building of 55,000 new homes will come forward. Thousands of jobs have been created, some with small contractors as far away as County Down. It is a model project, to my mind, with the cost shared equally between government, Transport for London and business.

We need to mend the roof north of Birmingham as well. We need imaginative plans for our northern cities with transport links that do not just come to London, such as the Northern Hub and the Ordsall Chord, Manchester’s own Crossrail, which links Victoria to Piccadilly.

It is a digital age, and as the UK leads Europe in digital business and consumer internet access, we need proper broadband and mobile coverage everywhere. I commend the 2012 report of our Communications Select Committee on this very subject. In Shanghai, my phone works well. At home in Wiltshire, I had to go to the local cafe to do business last summer because of broadband problems. The Government are investing £500 million with matching funding from local authorities and BT. These are huge sums, so why cannot we require a basic level of connectivity everywhere by 2015? What about an official map, perhaps held by the Land Registry, to show street by street what progress is being made?

Finally, I turn to education. International competitiveness depends on education, and it is a scandal that in the latest OECD tables, our best place was at number 21. The Secretary of State is doing many good things, with free schools a fine innovation—we just need more of them. So are the new academies, such as the London Academy of Excellence at Newham, which sends more children to Oxbridge than some famous private schools. I hope that the Minister will update us on examples of business involvement in education that can really inspire others, such as our studio schools and university technical colleges.

However, as a businesswoman, I am very concerned about the way that Britain is being left behind. We need to improve education across the board and stop it being a postcode lottery. That is the best route to social mobility and reversing those worrying PISA scores. I would allow more grammar schools to expand.

In any event, I think that streaming should be the norm in our schools, as it also helps innovative teaching to be used in the slower streams. By recognising that children have different skills and strengths, more streaming could also give a boost to vocational training. Let us learn from Germany, where trades are learnt from sitting alongside experienced master craftsmen and engineers, and where employers have a big role in course design. The scale of apprenticeships under this Government and across the economy is a story that we should celebrate but work to improve yet further. Rolls-Royce had 318 apprentices in 2012, and this year, Tesco had 4,127.

I have one final point, and it is a warning. Looking back at the run of general elections, one sees parties vying to promise short-term measures that crack down on business and do disproportionate damage. There have been recent unfortunate examples. We must avoid this temptation: the effect will be to hurt our international competitiveness, our reputation and our country. We must promote enterprise and the competitiveness of British business. I look forward to further suggestions from noble Lords and to the Minister’s response.

15:10

[Lord Bhattacharyya (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, for securing this important debate, and I declare my interest as chairman of Warwick Manufacturing Group at the University of Warwick.

Much of the Government’s role in making business competitive is essentially passive: keep corporation taxes down, do not over-regulate and do not impose unreasonable bureaucracy. I have no quarrel with this: competitive taxation and sensible regulation are essential in a modern economy. In Britain we have outstanding finance and services companies that rely on these principles. However, this is a minimum, not a maximum, strategy for being competitive. To go further, we must actively support the creation of a strong product base in a wide range of sectors. We cannot rely just on banking or on our aerospace industry, because the global market is changing. The Prime Minister found this to be so in China. Economies such as China and India know their consumers are very attractive to global businesses. Understandably, they want to keep more of the value of their growing markets in their economies.

What does that mean for Britain? In population terms, we are a relatively small country. For our businesses to grow they must succeed in export markets as well as at home. The first step to achieving this is a competitive exchange rate. For many years, British exports were strangled by high sterling, and we must not let that happen again. The Bank of England has a major role to play by not rapidly increasing interest rates. Stable exchange rates clear the way for government to help create an innovation framework that helps businesses develop their product base. This is the key to sustainable growth. For proof, look at the export data by region. In most of Britain, exports were flat in 2013, but in the West Midlands exports were up a staggering 14%. Why? It cannot be the exchange rate, or tax rates, or regulation. No, the reason is that one company, Jaguar Land Rover, is enjoying huge success, now accounting for almost a quarter of all British exports to China. This is no accident. When the global market was in crisis, JLR spent billions of pounds on researching innovative new products. It spends £100 million a year in my place on R&D. Now it is reaping the rewards. Naturally, the companies which export so successfully will need to build factories in their biggest markets. Crucially, however, the benefits of this expansion will also be felt at home.

How can we spread this success more widely? First, we must help more businesses invest in Britain for the long term. We are beginning to do this with the UK Business Bank. However, compared to our competitors our help is insignificant: less than 1% of the assets of the German KfW. It is no wonder that German investment in both R&D and fixed capital is far higher than ours. The Business Bank must be greatly expanded. Secondly, we must encourage industry sectors to work together to identify the scientific challenges that will shape global markets, and fund the R&D that will solve them. The UK Automotive Council shows how this can work, developing research road maps and co-ordinating investment in areas such as battery technology. This is especially vital in building our supply chain, so that the success of a single company also supports broader growth.

Next, we must increase investment in workforce training and skills. The best people to identify the skills needed in the economy are businesses and workers themselves, not government. I welcome the approach of Vince Cable in encouraging apprenticeships and employer-led skills training. We have a university technical college because the noble Lord, Lord Baker, asked me to set it up. Within a year, we had 200 students joining us, long before it had even started. However, this must not be a free lunch for businesses. The quid pro quo must be greater business funding for skills training. A return to the training levy system would be supported in many sectors, as it would remove free riders.

Finally, if you want to attract investment, do not get in the way of businesses hiring talented people. The current visa policy is, if not causing a problem, creating a sentiment that Britain does not welcome talent. If we want to be competitive, we must encourage the best and brightest to come to Britain. British business has invested in the automotive sector to create innovative products, skilled people and efficient processes. That sector was in the dumps five years ago but, as a result of that investment, it is succeeding in the global market. Our challenge is to increase the number of industries where this is happening and to spread growth down the supply chain. This will take time and it is a task for many Governments, not just the current one, but the prize is surely worth the effort.

15:15

[Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint (Con)]

My Lords, I join in thanking my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe for tabling this important debate. International competitiveness is a function of many things, as we would all recognise: there is tax, regulation, infrastructure, education and the skill base. The two previous speakers have covered those. I want to focus on why it is so important for UK business to enhance its international competitiveness and on some of the implications of success in the international arena for policy and action by both government and business.

First, on why it is so important, I draw attention to the balance of payments. The current account deficit in 2012 was nearly 4% of GDP. That is a substantial deterioration on 2011, although that is partly—but only partly—the result of a fall in profitability on outward investment, which may be an aberration. The broader truth is that we have had a weak balance of payments position for the working careers of us all in this Room, and that trade has recovered only rather modestly since the 25% or so devaluation of sterling which happened five or six years ago. That is perhaps the slowest recovery ever, or at any rate since the war. The first decade of this millennium was the worst in terms of balance of payments and recent numbers show that we are, to say the very least, not yet out of the woods.

Why does this matter? Time was when a market fundamentalism had it that it did not really matter what the balance of payments did because the market was self-regulating and self-stabilising, and whatever current trade position we had, the market would take care of it and make the appropriate adjustments seamlessly. We now know that that is not true. Indeed, there is some reason to fear that future devaluations of sterling will be less effective than they have historically been because there is a rising share of imports in exports. About 70% of the value of some of our major exported manufacturing products is now in fact in imported components, which of course blunts the effect of any sterling devaluation.

Even more fundamentally, a weak and weakening trade position is a drag on growth. We all know that we need to rebalance the economy to shift it away from the old growth model, which depended too much on the domestic consumer taking on debt to drive growth. We know that we need to find other sources of growth and that means stronger investment performance—another story—but also, importantly, a stronger trade performance, because that way lies sustainable growth.

That is the macroeconomic perspective. The microeconomic perspective is that international involvement is clearly good for companies. There is compelling evidence from both government surveys and academic and private sector surveys that companies which get into the export markets become materially more productive and efficient than those which do not, and that those effects are very quick. Unfortunately, the evidence is that fewer British companies are engaged internationally than is the case with our natural competitors. For the sake of discussion, I will treat those as being Germany, France, Italy and such countries. A challenge for both the Government and the business community is to encourage and support more companies to get into the international arena: first, because we need it from the balance of payments perspective; and, secondly, because it is good for their productivity and we thereby strengthen the backbone of the whole economy.

What do we need to do to encourage and support this? There is the role of the Government themselves of course, and we have already talked about the importance of the tax and regulatory framework. I want to dwell briefly on the role of trade promotion. I might be regarded as parti pris in so saying, but I think that the role of UKTI and UKEF is important. The key themes of work in progress in both cases are obvious to us all—more private sector experience in their leadership, more ability to operate flexibly and to market their services to British companies up and down the land, and adequate budgetary resourcing. Can the Minister assure us that the work that has been put in hand over the last two to three years will be continued? This is, I might add, a marathon and not a sprint. We need to continue it, not merely through the next spending review, but probably for the next 10 to 20 years, if we are to put this right.

My final point is that this is a national challenge. Even if the Government get everything right, and we score the Government 10 out of 10 on all criteria, there is a job for business in this, and in particular, an important role for overseas business groups and chambers. In recent months, we have begun to work with the chambers overseas to upgrade their activities. My impression, from my previous role, is that there is a growing recognition among them of the importance of this, and a growing readiness to step up to the plate. Again, I invite the Minister to confirm that the work that has been put in hand will continue, because as I say, this is a marathon and we have to keep this up, probably for a generation.

15:21

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

My Lords, we know that the prime purpose and focus of the coalition has been to rebalance the nation’s finances, but frankly there is no point to austerity if we cannot now achieve growth.

In April 1990, I took on a new responsibility running a newspaper business—a very cyclical business. The English economy was just tipping into the property recession at that time. Within six months, the profits of that company halved. In the subsequent six months, 50% of the rest disappeared. It is an experience seared in my mind. It took more than five years before we rebuilt that business. Once your market goes, you concentrate on cost-cutting to remain viable. You push back on marketing and investment. It takes time for consumers and suppliers to regain their confidence. Then it takes time for the business to have the confidence to invest and retrain and recruit staff to take advantage of the pick-up, and build on its competitive advantages.

One of the problems at the moment is that although we have rising confidence, with increasing orders for business, the preconditions for sustained upturn are not yet in place. We know that consumption is fragile, and what we do not want is another boom-bust based on credit. We need the sustainable growth which builds on our competitive advantages in business, to compete better as a trading nation. The noble Lord, Lord Green, mentioned the vulnerability of our current trading account in international trade. This is where the Government have to concentrate on improving the underlying business environment, through their industrial strategy. They have to adopt a strategic approach to championing key sectors in the UK, where their competitive advantage gives them possibilities of advances and future opportunities for growth in international markets. It represents a once-in-a-generation opportunity to use the pressures of the recession, and business desperate to recover, to achieve the changes we need.

I am very optimistic. We have seen in the past year the success of the Olympics—the construction firms and the supply chain companies which are benefiting from the reputations gained in that very successful enterprise. It is a remarkable case study that our motor industry has been transformed in the last 20 years, building—announced only this week—1.5 million cars last year, and set for 2 million by 2017. In the next two months, our creative industries, through our film makers—the British producer of “12 Years a Slave” and the technical specialists on “Gravity”—are almost certainly going to be honoured as world beaters. There are 1.7 million jobs in that sector, which is 5.2% of our economy—also announced this week. It is beyond belief, and I cannot quite understand it, that this is not one of the key sectors in the Government’s industrial strategy. I question sometimes those slightly misplaced criticisms of media studies courses in our universities—but I pass on.

I mention also the company in which my son works, easyJet. Founded in 1995 by a Cypriot businessman, it is now the biggest airline in the UK. It has more than doubled its revenues during the recession. We certainly have the experience and the managerial talent to take us forward.

I commend the CBI’s publication, Raising the Bar, which illustrates in its business environment scorecard what we need to do to raise our game and to be more successful. It measures how we are doing against our principal competitors of Germany, France, the US and Japan. We are ahead now on corporate tax competitiveness. We have a strong competitive advantage in our science renewal facilities, but we have major catching up to do in education and skills, R&D expenditure as a percentage of GDP, overall infrastructure quality and especially ease of access to loans. On regulation, we do not score well, but nor do France, Germany, the USA and Japan.

What do we need to do? We need to build on what we are best at. Clearly, partnerships need developing between government, business and university research establishments—the new £1 billion advance propulsion centre to develop new propulsion technologies in the motor industry is one example of this. Of course, we need to reform regulation, particularly in Europe, but we do not need to undermine business confidence by sacrificing all the benefits of the open markets of Europe.

We need to focus on technical training and might well have to accept some sacrifice in our university education. We are leaders in some of the elite sectors of education, but we are underachievers in the less successful parts of education, where we need to increase the resources and the commitment given to technical education. Finally, we need to examine our supply chains. Only 36% of UK vehicles are sourced from domestic business, and there are opportunities for our suppliers to fill those gaps.

The momentum of the industrial strategy needs to be maintained. A political consensus is required to support it through the next Parliament and to ensure long-term investment. I hope that the industrial strategy council will hold government and business to account to ensure that real economic growth shows the benefits for the wider nation.

15:27

[Lord Lyell (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for giving us a chance today to hear some outstanding speeches. I am afraid that I am well down the list, so, as far as industry is concerned, I am very much the tail-end Charlie. However, I take enormous pride in the fact that, 52 years ago, I started my commercial career as a apprentice chartered accountant in Rolls-Royce in Glasgow. Then, in 1962, there was—and indeed there still is—a strong shipbuilding industry on the Clyde in Glasgow. One of the first jobs that I did as an apprentice accountant was to go to a colossal steel company in Motherwell and to a seal fabrication company. Alas, that was 52 years ago. Things have, sadly, moved on from that particular aspect.

However, in the great city of Glasgow, what have we got? We still have the brains and the industry, including Rolls-Royce. Another firm very much involved in high technology, which the noble Lord spoke about, is Barr & Stroud. It is in defence and makes superb aiming and technical equipment. There is also the Weir Group. Wherever there may be problems with energy pipelines, you will find the Weir Group. Where is it based? It is in Glasgow. It is involved not just in the defensive aspect; it is aggressive in developing ideas throughout the world. These are all enormous, worldwide successes in different sectors, but I take some pride as a humble accountant in the fact that, defensively, they are all carefully watched by the accountants. I believe that we have good accountants in Scotland, but they keep their feet firmly on the ground of what you can afford. That is definitely crucial. I look at accounts and finance as being a first-class defence in that particular area.

In the early 1970s, I found myself spending more and more time in your Lordships’ House. In January 1977, I found that I was No. 2 apprentice on the Opposition Benches.

In January 1977, we discussed something called patents. I said, “Oh yes, that is very interesting”, but I then discovered that you had to be a lawyer or a scientist to have any clue about it. I am neither. However, thanks to wonderful advice from your Lordships’ House and from the pharmaceutical industry, I gained undying admiration for that industry in the United Kingdom, which I believe is a world leader. It is a subject of enormous pride and a colossal success in the UK. Looking at the competition all over the world, one or two of these enormous pharmaceutical enterprises in the United Kingdom have perhaps contracted but they have appeared in other areas. That is very much the lesson that my noble friend gave: where there has been a reduction in employment in some areas—for example, the public sector—there has been an improvement in other jobs, whatever the ratio may be, and we see that in the pharmaceutical industry.

The Minister who will be replying knows that I, too, am from north of the border. I am enormously proud of what we have in Dundee, with world-famous oncology ideas coming forward at the university. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Patel, is a world leader in that subject.

I understand that two aspects are relevant to the industry. One is something called the Patent Box, which I think my noble friend referred to. That involves finance and is most important, and I am sure that my noble friend Lord Younger will be able to reply on that. On the second aspect, I have a question. The Minister does not need to reply to me today but can he please ensure that the pharmaceutical industry is kept up to speed with patents and that it seizes the ideas and inventions that come forward within this country?

I thank my noble friend for the opportunity to take part in a star-studded debate. I am the junior batsman but I hope that I have made it.

15:32

[Lord Paul (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, for initiating this very timely debate. I declare an interest as the chairman of the Caparo group, an industrial manufacturing company.

We are seeing a recovery in the economy—in particular, in UK manufacturing. This is very heartening, and confidence is important in achieving any recovery. However, I am concerned that growth will continue to struggle without the necessary environment of efficient regulation and support that only government can provide.

As someone who is involved with manufacturing industry, I am keenly aware of the fragility of this current upturn. In the automotive sector, for example, we have seen recent international success for the UK plants of Jaguar Land Rover and Nissan, yet for most other car plants, market conditions remain challenging. The fourth, fifth and sixth biggest car manufacturers are producing 30% fewer cars than before the financial crisis, and although we are now buying as many cars as we did before the recession, only one in every seven cars sold in Britain is made here. Even for those that can sell their products in this sector, skilled engineers are hard to find, and working capital to fund growth remains difficult to secure.

Behind the big car-producing household names lies a supply chain of component manufacturers and service providers upon which the car makers rely and which provide the majority of jobs and income on which our manufacturing regions depend. Most of these businesses have been unable or unwilling to risk investing in new productive capacity in the past few years. They are now feeling more confident to invest, but how are they going to find the capital and skilled labour to allow them to do this?

Despite the Government’s efforts, the commercial banking sector in the UK has continued to shrink its loan books, and what is available remains difficult to access. I welcome the initiative of the Government in setting up the British Business Bank, and wish the recently appointed chairman every success in investing the £1.25 billion that the Government have set aside, but this may be too little, too late. Germany’s KfW, on which I believe the British Business Bank is based, invested more than €17 billion in Germany’s Mittelstand companies in the first nine months of 2013 alone. If we are to compete in international markets, the Government and financial sector need to work together now to provide easily accessible funding solutions to support investment in our economy. Tax incentives for lease finance providers, coupled with enhanced investment allowances for manufacturers, could and should be considered.

We must also support our manufacturers in the training, development and availability of skilled labour at all levels, from shop-floor technicians through qualified engineers to senior managers. This must be a true partnership between government, academia and manufacturers. We need to ensure that a significant part of our higher education system is providing relevant skill training that serves the needs of commerce, and that involves local communities.

The Government must make key decisions for the country’s longer term future, such as proper plans for future power generation, airport capacity, transport infrastructure development and cutting procedural red tape, which stops us getting things done.

As yet, we do not know the outcome of the EU vote, nor are we likely to until at least 2017. Of course, at home we have the Scottish devolution vote. Any investor in UK commerce, whether domestic or from overseas, wants certainty on what it is committing to, and those unresolved issues hinder and frustrate even those who have the money and the labour. I urge the Government to start making decisions now, before it is too late.

The time may have come when the Government might think about the experience of our colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Green, and put him in charge of British industry’s development.

15:37

[Lord Borwick (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity provided by my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe to make a few points about the international competitiveness of British business. The noble Baroness has had a tremendously successful career running an enormous British business employing thousands of people to satisfy millions of customers.

My experience is rather more mixed and modest, but I have started several engineering businesses, and at one time I could say that I was the first person to start an automotive production line in Coventry since the war, to make a new electric delivery vehicle to sell to companies such as Tesco. The noble Lord, Lord Paul, once drove it with me. Unfortunately, we were pioneering too early and in a dreadful recession, and I had to shut that business down. The business was indeed helped by BIS, but that was not what broke it. The reason why we started such a pioneering business in the Midlands was the depth of skills there and the enthusiasm of local businesses to help a small manufacturing start-up.

I am not sure that my experience is general, but I believe that making things is fun. I have had the privilege of running the company making the London taxi and I got a kick out of seeing taxi drivers doing business in my product, making themselves money. The noble Lord, Lord Bhattacharyya, may remember helping us, as he has helped so many Midlands-based manufacturing businesses. Indeed, he trained most of the engineers in most of the businesses in the Midlands.

When I saw the new electric van in Tesco livery, it was a thrill. It was not government encouragement or help that made us want to start the business. I believe that the most important thing that the Government can do to help British business is to reduce tax. The way in which entrepreneurs want help is by cutting the costs of doing business, the regulations on health and safety and the regulations on human resources that sap the little energy left in the mind of an entrepreneur after he has concentrated on satisfying his customers. Reducing tax is exactly what this Government are doing, and it is exactly the right thing to do. They may be doing so of necessity, because in this age of international trade it really is impossible to identify exactly where a profit is made and therefore where tax should be levied. Is it made by exploiting the patent or capitalising on the brand? It is quite reasonable to have a dozen different opinions on the implications of the same facts.

The best solution is to lower the tax rate to the point where it is not economic for the taxpayer to argue. I am not sure that 21% is low enough, but it is certainly a start and every little helps. We often underestimate just how beneficial tax cuts can be. There were encouraging signs of progress on this at the Autumn Statement 2013, with some preliminary work done on the dynamic modelling of corporation tax cuts. They were much more beneficial than static calculations had suggested. The Treasury and HMRC should be commended for finally undertaking this task. The model should now be published in full so that improvements can be made.

When I was a struggling entrepreneur, my wish was for smaller government, not better or more frequent free advice. My wish was for simpler tax laws, and now that I have the enormous fun of joining your Lordships’ House I am sure that tax legislation would be improved immensely if it were subject to the wisdom that is endemic here. The advantage to British business of your Lordships’ scrutiny of tax laws would be immense. If someone could actually read them before they were legislated, that would be an enormous advantage. The noble Baroness has called for debate on the direct measures that the Government are taking to promote entrepreneurship. The best single measures are to reduce Government expenditure and to reduce and simplify taxes.

15:41

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness on introducing this debate on a vitally important topic. It has been fascinating to see and hear the different perspectives. I did not take issue with many of the points raised by the noble Baroness. She mentioned the Patent Box, and we ought to claim a bit of the credit for that for the previous Government, whose idea it was.

However, I stumbled a bit when she confessed her desire to increase the number of grammar schools. As an ex-grammar school student myself, I must admit that the quality of my education was good, but I do not think that in the 21st century that is really the answer to our problems. We are far more likely to succeed with the model of university technical colleges which the noble Lord, Lord Baker, has been proselytising, if we are serious about inspiring the next generation of young people to get involved in craft and engineering. That seems to me to be a much more important way forward than trying to reintroduce grammar schools.

The noble Baroness also made the point about job creation, and one public sector job lost and four new jobs in the private sector. Of course we welcome the expansion of jobs in the private sector, but with some of them there is a price to be paid. A significant number are not full-time jobs but part-time jobs, and they do not actually fulfil the requirements of many people who need a full-time job. I do not quarrel with the expansion of jobs in the private sector, but we ought to get it into perspective.

Similarly, there is the question of the importance of education and apprenticeships. Of course, I applaud the work of the Government in building on our rejuvenation of what was in fact a dying apprenticeship scheme. My only problem with the current approach is that there is sometimes a desire to quote numbers. However, many of them, as we found out from examination, are adult apprenticeships which are really reskilling rather than being real apprenticeships. For me, with 1 million young people unemployed, the real focus ought to be on the age ranges of 16 to 24 and 16 to 18.

As has been said, a number of companies are doing well in recruiting apprentices—names such as Jaguar, Range Rover and Rolls-Royce. Yes, they are success stories, but far more worrying is the fact that still at best 8% of British companies have apprentices—that is the real nub of the problem, if we are serious about improving our skills—and still only one-third of FTSE 100 companies have apprentices. We have a long way to go in promoting that. There are still too many companies that believe that training is some other company’s problem, not theirs.

A couple of things have not been mentioned in this debate that interest me. One is the quality of management. We still have some way to go. I forget the exact figures from the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development, but it was something like one in five managers having any training. So if we are serious about addressing the quality of the products and productivity itself, then surely that is one of the things that the Government need to focus on: improving the quality of managing.

I cannot help reflecting on another issue that no doubt impacts on Britain’s ability to export, and that is the cost of energy. We are all struggling with how we are going to deal with fracking and shale gas but I do not believe that we can ignore it. Look at what has happened in the States: the impact of low energy costs is not insignificant. I do not want to spoil the debate by focusing on the negative but a number of contributors today have indicated that we are not doing as well as we should be. The noble Lord, Lord Green, said, in relation to the nature of the recovery, that it was fragile. There is still a worry that the level of debts and the housing bubble are not really what we seek to do. If we are talking about sustainable growth then surely it does not matter which party you are a member of, but the latest figures are still worrying.

I look forward to hearing from the Minister whether he thinks that—I conclude on this—the biggest constraint that businesses have with regard to expanding and exporting is the thorny question of credit finance. A number of noble Lords have pointed out that the current efforts by the Government have not remedied this problem, but the latest proposal for a small-owned business bank itself may not be sufficient. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Paul, who drew our attention to the German model. Whichever model we create, we must ensure that it delivers on what British businesses, especially small businesses, require, and that is reasonable rates of credit and finance.

15:47

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Viscount Younger of Leckie) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all those who have contributed today, and particularly congratulate my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe on initiating this important debate. Indeed, I understand that it was her first debate in this House.

In my remarks I will outline the measures that we are taking to meet our aspiration that the UK is seen as the best country in the world in which to do business. There is of course much to say on both enterprise and competitiveness, so I will focus only on some key areas; that is, improving access to finance, equipping people with the right skills, increasing our exports and simplifying both taxation and regulation—all subjects that have been alluded to today.

First, the Government’s growth and business plan for UK plc is set out in our industrial strategy. As part of this, we are implementing 11 sector strategies in partnership with business. My noble friend Lord Stoneham highlighted the importance of focusing on specific sectors. I am co-chairman of one of the sector councils—the Professional and Business Services Council. This is the UK’s largest economic sector, accounting for 12% of UK employment and 11% of gross value added.

We have been working on some exciting projects. The Government have invested, in partnership with industry, approximately £2 billion in the Aerospace Technology Institute and, as my noble friend Lord Stoneham mentioned, £1 billion in the automotive Advanced Propulsion Centre. The first projects for both will be launched later this year. We have also earmarked £600 million for eight technologies where the UK has the potential to be a world leader; we have announced a new £100 million employer ownership fund to co-finance investment in skills in key sectors and new technologies; and we are going to reform public sector procurement to make it more accessible to SMEs.

The Government are also taking steps to strengthen manufacturing by encouraging innovation, business investment, technology commercialisation, skills and exports. For example, the Advanced Manufacturing Supply Chain Initiative has made £245 million available to support manufacturing supply chains in England.

The Government are also committed to ensuring that businesses can access the finance that they need for investment and growth. The new British Business Bank brings together the management of existing government loan guarantee and investment schemes into a single, commercially minded institution. I am pleased to have broad support for this from the noble Lord, Lord Paul.

Business bank schemes are supporting £600 million-worth of lending and investment on an annualised basis. This includes the successful Start Up Loans programme, which has already provided £60 million of funding, helping more than 11,500 entrepreneurs to set up their own businesses. The business bank will use its funding to unlock up to £10 billion-worth of additional business lending and investment. It will achieve this by developing innovative programmes for smaller businesses and investing alongside the private sector.

Your Lordships will be aware that apprenticeship numbers continue to rise as we make it easier for employers to take on an apprentice. The noble Lord, Lord Bhattacharyya, and my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe, highlighted the importance of skills and education, as did the noble Lord, Lord Young of Norwood Green. We are equipping people with the skills that employers want—for example, 2.5 million adult learners achieved a government-funded further education qualification, representing an increase of 9% in 2012-13.

I now turn to exports. First, I pay tribute to my noble friend Lord Green, a tireless advocate for UK businesses. He recently vice-chaired the World Trade Organisation summit in Bali. The outcome of the summit is the first global trade deal in 20 years. It will add £100 billion to the global economy and will provide £1 billion of benefit to UK businesses annually.

As Trade Minister, my noble friend also encouraged UKTI to focus support on those sectors most important to the UK—for example, helping AugustaWestland to win a £1 billion helicopter contract with the Norwegian air force and safeguarding 3,000 jobs in Yeovil. It is also working with British chambers to deliver a one-stop shop of support services to UK companies in overseas markets.

As Minister for Intellectual Property, I should like to plug, rather unashamedly, the business support provided by our network of international IP attachés. They have directly helped almost 300 businesses since November 2012 and advised 2,600 in their outreach and business education work. My noble friend Lord Green raised the very important point about the continuation of the work that he started at UKTI. I reassure him that that very good work will continue and will be built on to achieve the challenging targets that he himself set and which are still the bedrock of what UKTI must achieve. For example, I understand that UKTI is on target to assist 50,000 businesses by the end of 2014-15, and it is making a major contribution towards achieving the target of £1 trillion of exports by 2020 and getting 100,000 more businesses exporting by the same date.

We have set out to reduce tax and provide a stable tax environment to encourage investment. We will be reducing corporation tax to 20% by 2015, which will be the joint lowest in the G20. We have introduced the Patent Box to encourage innovative businesses to invest in R&D in the UK, and to boost the research base we have made R&D tax relief more generous.

The Patent Box, which my noble friend Lord Lyell mentioned, provides a 10% rate of corporation tax with the full benefits being phased in over five years, starting last April. It has already been widely welcomed by businesses and by representative bodies, including the CBI, and is expected to benefit up to 5,000 companies including SMEs. R&D tax relief helped to support over £11.9 billion of R&D expenditure in around 12,000 companies in 2011-12, and we have built on the success of this scheme.

We have reformed our controlled foreign company rules to give British businesses more certainty in their international operations. We are now starting to see the results of our tax changes, with businesses coming to the UK, including WPP and AON, and companies which plan to invest more in research and manufacturing facilities in this country, such as GSK and AstraZeneca. I do agree with my noble friend Lord Lyell that pharmaceuticals are indeed a key sector in the UK, and, by the way, it was good to have a plug from him for the city of Dundee. He also raised the point about the importance of patents and education, and I can reassure my noble friend that as Minister for Intellectual Property, the communication of the importance of protecting IP is very high on my agenda. Last year, for example, the Intellectual Property Office contacted 25,000 businesses. The Patent Box helped secure an investment of £500 million by GSK, which will create 1,000 new jobs in Cumbria.

My noble friend Lord Borwick raised the issue of tax, and I agree with him that the wish for simpler tax laws is very high on our list. I am sure that tax legislation would be improved if it were subject to the wisdom which is endemic here in this Chamber. The Government’s aim is for a tax system that is simple to understand and easy to comply with, and we have taken action to modernise and simplify the tax system. The Government established the Office of Tax Simplification in July 2010 to provide independent advice on simplifying the tax system, and have acted on a range of its recommendations—for example, a new cash basis for calculating tax in April 2013 for up to 3 million of the smaller self-employed businesses, and investing £200 million to expand HMRC’s digital services over the next three years, making it easier and cheaper for all 4.8 million small and medium-sized businesses to deal with HMRC.

However, we must make life simpler for businesses. We continue to work hard to reduce bureaucracy. I am happy to report that our efforts on deregulation have already saved businesses over £1 billion per year. We are exempting micro-businesses and start-ups from new regulations. This has recently been extended to businesses with up to 50 employees through the new small and micro-business assessment. We have committed to scrap or improve at least 3,000 regulations through the Red Tape Challenge. This includes stopping unnecessary health and safety inspections for low-risk businesses and introducing fees for employment tribunals to help deter spurious and vexatious claims. I know, as she has said, that my noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe takes a keen interest in deregulation and I particularly wanted to thank her for her valuable contribution to the better regulation strategy group chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Currie.

We all know how vital small and medium-sized enterprises are to the economy. That is why we published a document, on 7 December, Small Business: GREAT Ambition, which sets out our commitment to help them. It focuses on a number of areas where government can help, including financing business growth, hiring people, developing new ideas and products, expanding into new markets, and getting the right support at the right time. What this means, more generally, is letting businesses get on with doing business.

My noble friend Lady Neville-Rolfe emphasised the importance of where business headquarters are located. I am happy to report that Ernst & Young reported in December that 60 multinationals were looking to move to the UK in the following 18 months. KPMG’s recent tax competiveness survey confirmed for the second year running that companies believe Britain has a more attractive business tax system than key competitor countries.

My noble friend Lord Stoneham raised the issue of the creative industries and asked why they were not one of the key sectors, which is a fair point to raise. The Government take the interests of the creative industries extremely seriously. We have the Creative Industries Council, which is chaired by my right honourable friends in the other place, Vince Cable and Maria Miller. I attended one of its meetings last year and can testify to the great work that the Government and industry are achieving by working together in this particular sector.

We are listening to businesses and we are doing everything we can to make sure that they develop, prosper and flourish. The initiatives I have spoken about today are of course only a selection of what we are doing to help, and I believe it is working. Evidence shows that businesses are more confident. Since April 2013, the proportion of businesses that believe their output performance is higher than 12 months ago has been increasing each month. We know there is still much to do, and the noble Lord, Lord Young, mentioned a fragile recovery. I believe it is better than that, but there is much more to do. We will continue to work hard, first, to make sure that the UK is seen as the best place in the world to do business; secondly, to make sure that the quality of British goods are acknowledged as exceptional around the globe and that enterprising companies have the necessary opportunities for growth; and finally, to continue to push our way to the very top of the World Economic Forum and the World Bank’s ranking for ease of doing business.

Education: Foreign Language Teaching

Thursday 16th January 2014 Grand Committee

Question for Short Debate

[Baroness Northover (LD)]

My Lords, I remind noble Lords that we are about to begin a time-limited debate. As far as I can see, there is no slippage time. Therefore, for those making Back-Bench speeches, when the clock reaches “5” they have had their five minutes.

16:02

Asked by

[Baroness Coussins]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to ensure the success of mandatory foreign language teaching at Key Stage 2 from September 2014.

[Baroness Coussins (CB)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as chair of the All-Party Group on Modern Languages, which has been pressing for some years now for foreign languages to be part of the required curriculum in primary schools. I am therefore delighted that this will finally be the case from September this year, and I congratulate the Government most warmly on this reform. It has been a long time coming, having been on the cards for September 2011 but abandoned as part of a cross-party agreement before the most recent general election. I have never gone along with the idea, promoted from 2004 onwards, that compulsory languages at key stage 2 was a sensible strategic alternative to keeping languages in the national curriculum for all until the end of key stage 4. I believe that we should have both.

The focus today is on key stage 2, and the timing is very good. With some concentrated focus and leadership from the Government, starting now, we can ensure that we will not be back here in four or five years’ time being told by the language naysayers that pupils still do not like languages, there are not enough teachers and in any case English is enough. This is not the occasion to rehearse the arguments about why languages are important; we really must take that for granted in today’s debate. Suffice it to say that in the 21st century, knowing English is vital but knowing only English is a serious drawback. Primary school is the place to start making sure that pupils in the UK are on the front foot.

I apologise in advance to the Minister for the many detailed questions I shall be asking. If he does not have time to answer them all today, I hope that he will write to me and place a copy in the Library.

We will not be starting in September with a blank sheet of paper. Some 97% of primary schools already offer some language teaching and there is some excellent practice in several parts of the country. However, the latest data from the Language Trends survey indicate a wide variation in practice. Many schools treat their provision as a very lightweight introduction to a new language and concentrate solely on oral skills. Around one-third of schools say that they neither monitor nor assess pupils’ progress. Schools are not confident about the more rigorous aspects of language teaching.

There are five issues that need urgent attention from the Government if the new policy is to be a success overall, not just in small patches. I will address each of them in turn. They are guidance, support and training; teacher supply; measuring progress and continuity; capitalising on home languages; and the role of Ofsted.

First, the survey reveals a high level of dependence on outside support. However, there are real problems with schools’ access to that support and training. Official guidance barely exists. The new documentation for schools has only three pages outlining the purpose of study, attainment targets and subject content in modern languages. That compares with 88 pages for English. Surely that sends a message to schools about the level of importance attached to studying a foreign language.

The DfE says that schools should seek advice and support in preparation for key stage 2 languages, but does not actually provide any support or indeed guidance on how to find it. What is being done, and what more can be done, to ensure that schools have access to the support and training that they need? In particular, will the Government facilitate training for the new programme of study? Without further guidance on the intended outcomes of key stage 2 languages, it is also very difficult to know how much time to give to the subject in the timetable. England provides one of the lowest amounts of teaching time to modern languages in both primary and secondary schools of all the OECD countries. The current typical offer is one 30-minute lesson a week, and while that might be valuable in itself it is unlikely to lead to any measurable level of competence by the end of key stage 2.

The second big issue is teacher supply. How will the Government ensure that enough primary school teachers are trained to teach a language, bearing in mind that this becomes compulsory in only a few months’ time? What opportunities will there be for teachers to spend time in a country where the language they are teaching is spoken? Given the shortage of suitably trained teachers, what advice will the Government be giving to schools on the use of unqualified speakers of a given language who, perhaps with the appropriate training, might assist schools with their language provision?

The Minister might be interested in the case study of the Al-Noor primary school, an independent Muslim school in east London hoping to become voluntary aided. The pupils, none of whom are native Arabic speakers, start to learn Arabic in reception class and by year 6 have reached a level judged to be equivalent to GCSE. The teacher is not a native Arabic speaker either, although he is an experienced teacher and teacher trainer. However, he does not have QTS because the assessment-only route to QTS is not available, as I understand it, in languages. Is there any modification of the QTS process that the Government could make to improve the supply of qualified language teachers?

The third issue is measuring progress and achieving continuity. There is currently no guidance on the level to be achieved at the end of key stage 2 or how it is to be measured. Other countries use the Common European Framework of Reference, or a version thereof, which is adapted to measure the progress of young children. Without a national system of measurement, there is a danger that schools will adopt a minimalist approach that will not provide a secure or consistent enough basis for secondary schools to build on in the same way as they do for maths, English and science. Without this, year 7 pupils will all too often find themselves starting from scratch again in languages, which leads to boredom, demoralisation and a reluctance to continue languages after key stage 3. Will the Government therefore introduce a formal assessment measure? Will they set a defined level of achievement for pupils to reach at the end of key stage 2?

The Language Trends survey revealed that 60% of primary schools have no contacts on languages with their local secondary schools. The issue of continuity is often just dismissed as too complex to deal with, yet the national curriculum requires that key stage 3 should build on key stage 2. The need for a proper system to record pupil progress and pass this information on to secondary schools is key to the success of language teaching at key stage 2 and, indeed, throughout statutory schooling.

Crucially, will the Government ensure that a national recording mechanism is introduced to facilitate information transfer and also to provide data that would enable local, national and international comparisons to be made? The London Borough of Hackney and other school partnerships offer one example of an approach to achieving continuity, by having all schools, both primary and secondary, agree on which language is taught at key stage 2. Will the Government provide a strong steer to encourage schools to work together in this way?

The fourth issue that I flagged up is the value of home languages. One in six primary school pupils does not have English as their first language. We should recognise this linguistic capital as a significant asset. The Government’s decision to remove the list of seven languages allows primary schools the freedom to develop home languages as well as to introduce a new one. The challenge is how to recognise and accredit home languages now that the Asset system has been withdrawn. What will the department can do to make the Government more aware of the potential importance of the rich range of languages spoken in the UK for economic growth, national security and international diplomacy? Without the Asset scheme, how do the Government intend to support and develop higher levels of literacy in home and community languages?

Lastly, I want to say a few words about the importance of Ofsted inspections, which will play a critical role in measuring the successful implementation of this policy, as well as encouraging primary schools to take the reform seriously. To what extent will the inspection of language provision be part of Ofsted inspections from September 2014, and will the Minister assure noble Lords that full account of the new policy on key stage 2 languages will be taken in inspection visits and that it will form a part of all inspection reports?

I am excited about this new policy, but I ask the Government to pay urgent attention to the various gaps in the system that I have described, in order to prevent the policy from backfiring in practice.

16:11

[Lord Lyell (Con)]

My Lords, no subject in your Lordships’ House could have a better champion than the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins. I am one of her—if I can call it so—pupils. I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, is here, because 60 years ago, at the school we both attended, I was decreed to be incapable of taking on board anything to do with science or mathematics and was placed in the languages stream. I have never forgotten what I learnt there. I listened to the marvellous and very encouraging comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, about rigour in language tuition. The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, and I will remember the rigour with which we had to learn languages in those far-off days.

I am particularly grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, for all the expert advice that she has produced today, together with her commitment, drive and enthusiasm in beating the drum for something which appears not to be of enormous importance for school curricula, especially at an early stage: primary school, or when moving on to secondary school. I am afraid I am a bit lost with what the noble Baroness referred to as stages—is it stage 4? In any case, the first stage is the most important one.

The noble Baroness referred to mandatory tuition, and I had a question mark there. I believe that it can be, and ought to be, all the more important, since in another part of your Lordships’ House we have just had an enthralling debate on the world wide web with the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox. That demonstrates the worldwide means of communication, and I suspect that a good bit of the world wide web is not in English, although English is probably the majority language of communication. If the Minister has time, I hope that he can say—or write to me or let me know somehow—whether there is a chance of using the world wide web and expanding its fantastic capacity for teaching and furthering worldwide communication.

On a personal basis—if the noble Baroness will forgive me this—when I was at the University of Oxford, I often had an essay crisis in the middle of the night. BBC Radio 2 went off air at midnight, but one did not worry—there were stations that could be listened to for 24 hours out of 24. On long wave, one had French radio. I was able to take all four French channels, and I am delighted that they have improved my communication. I then came to learn about the BBC World Service and all the languages and services that it provided.

Part of my activities in your Lordships’ House dealt with a thing called the North Atlantic Assembly, consisting of NATO parliamentarians. I was drafted on to a committee that dealt with communications and putting over some aspects of Western policy, especially in what we used to call the Soviet Union. The population of the Soviet Union in the late 1980s was 240 million people, of whom 130 million did not speak Russian. The BBC World Service was able to put out communication and wonderful ideas about our way of life in the eight or 10 different languages that were spoken in the Soviet Union. The noble Baroness’s drive for languages can open the world to young people.

I am sure that we will hear from the Minister about professional teachers and their methods, but I wonder whether he can give me some indication of the new psychology of youngsters, since it is 50 or 60 years since the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, and I were drilled with rigour in languages. Modern languages can be fun for youngsters for both sport and chat but, my goodness, in future when I am long gone, I am sure that their professions, business, trade and finance will be improved, and it is vital that modern languages are part of their life. I am immensely grateful to the noble Baroness for this debate and, once again, I hope that she will forgive me for the usual Lyell hobbyhorse.

16:16

[Baroness Morris of Yardley (Lab)]

My Lords, I join the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, in congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, on the stalwart and steadfast leadership that she has shown on this issue. A difference of opinion remains between her and me on the decision over key stage 4 modern foreign languages but, having been guiding the ship of the Department for Education when that decision was taken, I have naturally taken an ongoing interest in this, which is I why wanted to make a contribution to the debate today. I think that the noble Baroness’s introduction covered all the issues that could possibly be covered in this debate, so I apologise in advance for repeating some of them; I am just going to pick out two or three that matter particularly to me.

I very much welcome the Government’s decision on this; it is a good thing now to make modern foreign languages mandatory in primary schools. I welcome that and wish them well, and I hope that we can work together to bring about success. That was a decision that I faced over a decade ago, and I decided not to go ahead with it. However, coupled with the decision not to have mandatory foreign languages at key stage 4 was the decision to move the subject in time to primary schools and make it compulsory at key stages 1 and 2—never to leave it floating as being compulsory only at key stage 3, which I regret. I do not think it was the wrong decision not to make it compulsory way back in 2002—I am not sure that we had the resourcing within the nation and the education system to do so—but there are certainly lessons to be learnt about what has gone on in the decade since. It is those that I want to spend two or three minutes talking about now, and I have two or three questions to finish off with.

What went wrong? What would we do differently if we had to start again? First, giving the school system 10 years to enact something was far too long. School leavers or class teachers who were there at that point would not be there 10 years later, so there was no lever to give a sense of urgency to make primary schools get on with it. Secondly, although ring-fenced money was given to modern foreign languages teaching at the start of the process, it was put into the general school budget around 2006—not under my leadership but under later leadership, That was a mistake. It took the lever away again from encouraging primary schools to teach modern foreign languages. Thirdly, we never solved the problem of there being sufficiently highly qualified teachers in the primary sector. However, there were some things that went well, which is why 97% of the schools at least have a modern foreign language specialist.

It is worth the Government bearing these points in mind as they go forward with this task. First, we made great use of the specialist language schools, which are not there now. Those provided a core of partnership that is badly needed if primary schools are to make a go of it. They cannot do it alone; they need partnerships to join and leadership somewhere in the education system, because it might not be there in their own school. Secondly, we had co-ordination by the local education authority, which is no longer a player in the game. I am not sure where the co-ordination will now come from. Thirdly, we had designated advanced skills teachers who played a leadership role. There are some things that I would do differently but some things did have an effect, as we can see a decade later.

My questions for the Minister on this occasion are these. First, I found it quite difficult to find out the number of primary ITT-model foreign-language places for next year. Does he have those figures? I attempted to look them up but could not find them. Secondly, is partnership not absolutely key? There should be partnership with key stage 3 in the secondary schools to which those schools’ children are likely to go, partnership with other language speakers in the wider community and partnership with expertise wherever it might exist, whether in local colleges and universities or in neighbouring primary and specialist schools. The Government have not gone for a system of organisation where they force partnership on schools. I am worried about how schools will voluntarily make these partnerships, and make them effectively. That came out of points 5A and 5B in the consultation process which the Government have just taken forward. That was the most raised issue and I am not sure what the Government’s response to it is.

My last point is on pedagogy. We all want it to happen but making it happen will depend on the quality of teaching in each and every one of our primary schools and for each and every one of their pupils. What is the Minister doing to improve pedagogy and teacher quality in modern foreign languages? However, I wish the Government well with this. It is long overdue and I regret the gap that has happened, but it gives us a glorious chance to get it right in the years to come.

16:22

[Baroness Garden of Frognal (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, for initiating this debate and join in the tributes to her tireless work on behalf of languages. For those of us with a keen interest in modern languages, it has been encouraging to see the increased enthusiasm generated by public and private sector organisations, as well as such respected bodies as the British Academy and the Chartered Institute of Linguists, which have helped to inform and persuade the Government of the importance to this country of speaking languages other than English.

We live in an international world where technology has revolutionised the speed and range of communication. It brings together the multilingual nations of the world and the UK will be the poorer economically, culturally and socially if we cannot participate in languages other than our own. We saw a serious decline in the study of languages, which accelerated when the previous Government decided to remove the requirement for a language beyond the age of 14. The EBacc has helped to reverse the trend at key stage 4 with a healthy increase in GCSE entries in 2013, which we hope will be sustained. However, the decline at school led to a decline in university language study and, consequently, in those opting to become language teachers. Secondary schools are experiencing a shortage of skilled and enthusiastic linguists, and primary schools will have to compete if they are to fulfil their remit to interest children in languages at a young age.

It is noteworthy that an impressive 91% of the responses to the Government’s consultation agreed with the introduction of languages at key stage 2. It is widely recognised that the earlier a child learns a second language, the easier it is for them to absorb that language as a natural development at a time of life when so much else is being newly learnt. Breaking the barrier of one foreign language makes other languages more accessible. If there is such agreement over why this should be done, we need to look at how it could be done successfully, and the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, outlined some of the issues there. It would not be appropriate to expect primary teachers to acquire language skills overnight that were not previously required. They are hard-working and hard-pressed enough in giving young children the best start to their education, so creative measures are called for to bring the fun and excitement of languages into primary schools.

When the previous Government were encouraging primary languages, imaginative materials were developed under the key stage 2 framework for languages. Children were encouraged to explore the new language collaboratively through games, songs and rhymes, and to show what they had learnt through simple conversations, role-plays and short performances. At school in France when I was eight we had to learn something by heart every evening, be it a fable de La Fontaine, some grammar rules or little known aspects of French history. Reciting these back was one of the few bits of fun in an otherwise humourless school, and many of those have actually stayed with me today—some more useful than others, I have to say. Learning songs and rhymes helps to develop children’s working memory, which is another essential tool in language learning. What account have the Government taken of these materials, which were tried and tested only a few years ago?

Another suggestion is to mirror the British Academy’s language assistants programme, which provides classroom placements in 14 countries overseas for English speakers with at least two years of higher education. Are there similar programmes to attract language assistants from overseas into our schools here? Student native speakers would bring currency and youth into lessons and marry their fluency with the teaching skills of the class teacher. Are the Government able to provide schools with advice on such exchanges?

Another connected source of support can come from embassies. A few years ago the German, French and Spanish ambassadors clubbed together to offer their backing to the then Government to revitalise interest and proficiency in their languages. This time round, when the range of languages was being debated, representatives from the Japanese embassy were anxious to ensure that Japanese should not be ruled out as one of the permissible primary languages. Along with that representation came offers to support the teaching of Japanese. They and other nationals succeeded in increasing the range of languages. What discussions have been held with London embassies to enlist their collaboration in promoting their native languages within the curriculum?

Primary schoolchildren are no strangers to technology. I hope the Government are also supporting the development of imaginative programmes geared to younger children to help them to master languages through computer-based games and activities. Our aim should be to inspire the next generation to see languages as the route to better global communication, more rewarding careers and a better quality of life.

16:26

[Baroness Warnock (CB)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on securing this debate. I associate myself very strongly with her reference to the common European framework of languages.

The excellent idea—initiated, I think, by Lord Dearing—of the language ladder seems to have disappeared through the floorboards. It is essential to have a way of assessing the progress of children at key stage 2, and this framework would provide that because it is adaptable to the earlier stages. More than that, it is also something that teachers themselves should be very much encouraged to make use of to upgrade their own language skills, or even to start at the beginning and treat learning a language like learning a musical instrument, where you have the associated board and examinations at various stages; it does not matter what age you are—you can take grade 1 when you are eight or 80. Such a framework is essential before we embark on the very welcome return of languages to key stage 2.

I have three questions for the Minister, all of which I think have been asked before in one form or another. First, are the Government planning for the department to set up some sort of crash courses for serving teachers in order to add a specific qualification in the teaching of languages to their existing qualifications?

Secondly, and even more importantly, are the Government minded to set up short training courses, preferably in-school, for bilingual non-teachers who could then act as peripatetic teachers in groups of schools? Of course, this entails what has already been mentioned: the need for collaboration between schools in an area. Primary and secondary schools should act as a collaborative group, and peripatetic teachers could therefore teach in both secondary and primary schools. Having a native speaker who has trained as a teacher, however briefly, would be an enormous advantage. I wonder if the Government have any ideas to set this up—immediately, really, because September is not so far away.

That leads to my third question: how are we going to break away from the domination of French as the most-taught language in primary schools? I have nothing against the French language—or rather, I have some things against it, although I am not anti-French—but the predominance of French is a purely historical matter that should be remedied in the 21st century. I hope that making use of native speakers of a variety of different languages would be extremely helpful.

This morning I asked someone who has lots to do with corresponding and communicating in foreign languages which two languages he would choose as the most useful to be taught at key stage 2. He said that his heart told him French—because he loves French—but his head told him Mandarin and Spanish. We ought to widen the range of languages taught and make use of all the skills that there are. As we know, many languages are spoken in this country at present. Mandarin is taught quite widely, but mainly in private schools at present, and we do not want it to be a skill that is confined to people who have been to private schools. I would be grateful if the Minister could answer those questions.

16:31

[Baroness Sharp of Guildford (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend Lady Coussins, and declare an interest as the vice-chairman of the All-Party Group on Modern Languages.

The noble Baroness, Lady Morris, mentioned the decision that was taken in 2004. That was preceded by a Nuffield report on the teaching of languages, which had pointed out very clearly that in most foreign countries children were introduced to a foreign language at the age of six or seven and that on the whole this was recommended as a more effective way of teaching foreign languages. She mentioned the trade-off, that key stage 4 would be dropped, which was done very reluctantly on the part of some members of the Opposition at that time. Many of us fought hard against it and have regretted that decision ever since.

The relatively slow development within the primary sector has been described, but by 2010 well over half of primary schools offered some teaching in modern foreign languages. Today, as we have heard, the figure is 97%. The Ofsted report in January 2011, Modern Languages: Achievement and Challenge, pointed to the achievements of primary schools: approximately two-thirds of the schools visited were rated either good or outstanding in this area, especially in listening and responding, as distinct from reading and writing, in the foreign languages. That picks up the point about rigour that the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, mentioned. What comes above all through from the report is the enthusiasm of the seven to 11 year-olds for their language studies and the diverse and imaginative approaches of teaching.

However, one feature that stood out from that Ofsted report was the importance of the competence of teachers. Some larger primary schools recruited language specialists themselves while others used part-time assistants, sometimes linking with the local secondary school and sharing their assistant. Ofsted noted that, generally speaking, schools that had access to native speakers achieved more highly than those that did not, although the imaginative use of DVDs and video facilities, linking up with partner schools and using the internet, e-mail and even Skype links substituted for this on occasion.

The NUT also emphasised the importance of teacher competence and the need to ensure sufficient time and resources for the training of teachers. Given the importance that Ofsted placed on the role of native speakers, there might be more of a role for training UK-based native speakers to help in schools—many French and German people are longstanding residents in the UK—as teaching assistants supplementing classroom teachers rather than substituting for them, but providing a very important link as a native speaker in helping with the teaching. It has always struck me that we send a great many young people overseas with as little as six weeks’ training to teach English as a foreign language. Why should we not reverse that and train some of our very competent native speakers in this country to do the same in our own schools?

The NUT also emphasised the importance of links with local secondary schools, which the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, and others have also spoken about. The new national curriculum gives schools considerable leeway to decide what language to teach and how to teach it. However, if the idea is to encourage young people to pursue modern foreign languages later in their studies, it is vital not to demotivate them at key stage 3. Nothing is more demotivating than having to go all over again, often painfully slowly, the elementary stages of language teaching when it has already been covered at your primary school.

Some of the most successful experiments in primary teaching have come from the linking up of what were the specialist secondary language colleges with the feeder primary schools. Sometimes they sent their staff out to help with the training of teachers and with developing the courses in those primary schools. How far is the Minister’s department encouraging primaries and secondaries to work together in local cluster groups, as I gather happened in Hackney—I think the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, mentioned this—to achieve a smooth transition from one stage to another?

16:36

[Lord Aberdare (CB)]

My Lords, I am pleased that the motion refers to “mandatory” rather than “modern” foreign language teaching, since I shall talk mainly about Latin and Ancient Greek. I, too, echo the tributes that have been paid to my noble friend Lady Coussins for her leadership in this area.

First, I congratulate the Government on making foreign language learning compulsory at key stage 2, with Latin and Ancient Greek included among the languages available. As we have heard, from an early age children have an enormous capacity for learning languages. My own granddaughter, aged just five, who lives in Moscow, is the most fluent Russian speaker—in fact the only one—of all four members of her family, having spent some two years in a Russian school; and her English-language skills have certainly not suffered.

Classical languages, especially Latin, are particularly helpful in learning about how languages work. I can think of no better way of getting to grips with grammar—as the noble Lord, Lord Lyell, and I experienced—and Latin is directly relevant to the study of a whole group of modern European languages, so many of whose words and idioms derive from it. Beyond that, Latin and Greek can open a window into a much wider realm of literature, history, drama, law, philosophy, science and culture. They can combine well with other languages at primary level, each feeding off and reinforcing the others.

There are excellent materials available for teaching Latin at this level. The Minimus course, developed by Barbara Bell of the Primary Latin Project, has sold more than 130,000 copies and is widely and successfully used in schools teaching Latin to seven to 10 year-olds. It features a Roman family living near Hadrian’s Wall, including their slaves, a cat and a mouse, Minimus. The resources available include books, games, songs, a musical, comic strips, animations, finger puppets and more. Minimus is even on Twitter, although I imagine he should squeak rather than tweet.

I am encouraged by the fact that there seems to be growing enthusiasm among schools—including state schools—to offer classical language teaching, which has for too long been seen as the preserve mainly of independent schools. This has been very much down to the efforts of private organisations such as Friends of Classics, Classics for All, the Primary Latin Project, the Iris Project, the Mayor of London’s Love Latin scheme, Classics in Communities and others. These offer encouragement, support and resources, including financial, to schools wanting to try teaching Latin or Greek.

One project, started with a grant from Classics for All, has sought to introduce and embed Latin into a cluster of schools in North Walsham in Norfolk. This has employed four teachers, working with other suitable adults, to deliver the Minimus course at the primary schools. A further, important part of the project seeks to enable students from the primaries to continue with Latin up to GCSE level at the secondary school. The project has now spread to two other clusters.

There is much good work going on, but projects like these face some challenges, which I hope the Minister may seek to address. First, children studying Latin, let alone Greek, at primary level have only a one in four chance of being able to continue at secondary level. Again, excellent resources are available, notably from the Cambridge School Classics Project. Both Latin and Greek can count towards the EBacc qualification at key stage 4 but there is something of a black hole at key stage 3. Secondary schools cannot offer Latin as a language within the key stage 3 national curriculum, only as an option outside it.

Secondly, not enough new teachers are being trained to deliver Latin and other classical subjects, and there is little or no government support for training such teachers. Much teacher training has to be carried out by volunteers. The Norfolk project has had to make use of retired teachers, teaching assistants, governors, parents and others with suitable basic skills, as well as existing staff, including teachers of modern foreign languages. I hope the Minister is willing to look into ways of working with the classics community to tackle these issues. Perhaps he, or an appropriate ministerial colleague, might consider meeting some of the leading promoters of Latin teaching in primary schools to understand the challenges they face and to explore ways of meeting them, in order to ensure that the welcome inclusion of classical languages in the mandatory language teaching programme achieves the success it deserves.

16:40

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I am also extremely grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, for tabling this debate today and add my thanks for her continuing commitment to making foreign language teaching in schools a success. As she said, this is a very timely debate, which allows us to be updated on the progress being made in implementing the key stage 2 proposals. As I think has been said, the noble Baroness has, quite rightly, identified the main challenges which still lie ahead.

First, I should state from the outset that we support the principle that foreign language teaching should be compulsory at key stage 2. Our record of producing young people and adults fluent in other languages over the years has been rather woeful. England continues to be ranked the worst country in Europe for the level of acquisition of foreign languages among teenagers. We have a long way to go, but we need to get the detail right. It may be that a 10-year run-in was too long, as my noble friend Lady Morris suggested, but conversely it seems that we are working to a rather tight timetable here for the implementation of the policy by September 2014. The Government have tried to make a virtue out of having a hands-off approach to schools, but on this occasion I hope the Minister would acknowledge that help is needed on this issue given the scale of the challenge ahead. I hope he is able to reassure us that steps are being taken by the department to roll the policy out successfully rather than leaving schools to do it all alone.

Secondly, as has been said, there continues to be a concern about the lack of staff expertise. Arguably, teaching a foreign language badly is worse than not teaching it at all at this level. For example, nearly a quarter of primary schools have no member of staff with a language qualification higher than GCSE. For many, that qualification was taken many years ago or, indeed, could be in a different language to the one they are now being asked to teach. Therefore there are challenges with the skills of the teaching pool. Arguably, that challenge—the language skills of existing teachers—is not something that will easily be met by September 2014. I hope the Minister can clarify how quality teaching will be assured and whether a national audit of the skills is being carried out. Do we have a sense of the scale of the problem, and how is the department addressing that issue?

Thirdly, there is the rather thorny issue of the choice of languages to be taught. When we debated the language order in Grand Committee which set the scene for these changes last year, I made it clear that we opposed the narrow range of languages which the Government intended to prescribe, and was therefore pleased when that element of the proposal was dropped. At the time I was unhappy on the basis that having a restricted list of languages would prevent us from benefiting from schools being able to adopt the languages predominant in their local community and to take advantage of that. For example, I was for many years a school governor in a part of Kennington which became known as Little Portugal because of the cluster of Portuguese shops and restaurants and, eventually, the large number of the families that came to live there. It made sense for that school to have Portuguese as its adopted second language. Indeed, the Portuguese embassy used to visit the school regularly and help with the language teaching there. In retrospect, that was a good model upon which we should build.

However, it is clear that to have a successful foreign language strategy we must have high levels of collaboration between primary and secondary school language teachers, particularly if we accept that a variety of languages will be taught at key stage 2. This has been said by a number of noble Lords this afternoon. That, again, is a challenge for the Government, and once again those strong interschool links require not only extra encouragement but extra resources. I would be interested to hear from the Minister what he is doing to encourage that collaboration.

Finally, there is the issue of the content of the primary language learning. The best language teaching I have witnessed makes the language come alive, encouraging children to communicate, perhaps imperfectly in the first instance, and to play games. The noble Baroness, Lady Garden, quite rightly stressed this, and gave some exciting examples about the importance of enjoyment at that level. I argue that grammar ought to come later. I am concerned at the messages from the department that seem to concentrate too much on learning grammar and not enough on that initial speaking and communicating.

I hope that we can agree that we are all aiming for the same outcome here, which is to raise the game of foreign language teaching at primary and secondary level, and to develop more young people who are able to communicate effectively on the global stage. I look forward to hearing what the noble Lord has to say about the plans to make sure that we are on track to achieve that.

16:46

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Nash) (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, for securing this important debate and for her insightful speech. I know how passionate she is on the subject, as she was today, and I thank all noble Lords for their valuable contributions. The noble Baroness is quite right to say that I will not be able to answer all her questions, but I will have a jolly good try. My noble friend Lord Lyell referred to an essay crisis. I have to say that I have been in this job for a year, and I have had more essay crises in the last year than I had in three years at Oxford. I have that distinct feeling right now.

This Government are determined to put languages back at the heart of our education system, and to make sure that every young person in the country enjoys a rich and rewarding language education. The earlier children become comfortable and confident speaking another language, the more quickly they become fluent and the more likely they are to do well as they move into secondary education and continue with languages at GCSE and, we hope, beyond. That is why, from next September, children will start to learn languages much earlier in their school career, from the age of seven.

As the 2012 Language Trends survey indicated, 97% of primary schools already teach at least one modern foreign language, and 83% are confident that they will be able to meet the statutory requirement from September 2014. I understand that the 2013 survey results will be available in the spring, and I hope that they will show further progress in this regard. Schools are not alone; there are many classroom resources freely available to support the delivery of high-quality languages teaching in several languages, as well as many highly qualified teachers and languages experts who are willing to support primary schools with the introduction of the new curriculum. This is where the support should come from, not from additional guidance or prescription from central government.

We want primary schools to concentrate substantially on teaching a single language from the age of seven right through to 11. This will give pupils four years of study in which to develop their listening, speaking, reading and writing skills to a high level. It will give them time and space to reach a decent level of fluency early on, giving them confidence that they are good at languages and encouraging them to continue with the subject for longer. It will also increase their confidence and capability, if and when they start to learn a new language at secondary level. We are not prescribing details of assessment outside English and maths. Schools should decide these for themselves, although they will need to demonstrate them to Ofsted, and I will come to that in a minute.

The noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, raised the issue of the amount of time spent on teaching languages at primary level. The Languages Trends survey showed that slightly over half of primary schools offered between 30 and 45 minutes a week, with around a quarter offering an hour. That is a good basis on which to build, although decisions about timetabling are, of course, for schools. We also strongly encourage primary and secondary schools in a local area to work together to offer the same languages, helping pupils to move smoothly between schools. Obviously this can help pupils greatly, and I shall say a bit more about that in a moment.

I turn to training and resources. Schools are already starting to prepare for the change of course, and there is a lot of support out there for them. Last year, the National College for Teaching and Leadership facilitated an expert group, now working independently, chaired by a leading primary head teacher. The group has been meeting to develop signposting of high-quality teaching resources to support initial teacher trainers as schools prepare for the introduction of key stage 2 languages. They are providing links to resources, courses, qualifications and people that the primary sector can use to support the introduction at key stage 2 from 2014, to be hosted on the website of the Association for Language Learning. We are considering the group’s recommendations carefully as we prepare for the implementation of the new national curriculum from September this year.

Organisations such as the Association for Language Learning and the Network for Languages are offering training to support the new languages curriculum. Another source of support comes from embassies and cultural institutions from many countries. My noble friend Lady Garden asked about the involvement of embassies. We have been enlisting their collaboration in promoting their native languages within the curriculum. The cultural section of the French Embassy, the Goethe Institut, the Spanish Consejeria and the Japan Foundation are already offering schools specialist support to help them teach these languages effectively. The Institute of Education’s Confucius Institute is working in partnership with HSBC to expand the teaching of Mandarin Chinese in primary schools. This is the kind of innovation and collaboration that we want to encourage in schools, and I hope that those resources will become more widely used by teachers in future.

Our approach to continuing professional development for teachers focuses on empowering schools to take the lead in the training and development of teachers and creating more opportunities for peer-to-peer training. The national network of teaching school alliances that we are creating will further build the capacity of schools to follow this approach, including in languages. Many schools are already doing this successfully. For example, Penrice Community College in Cornwall is working with primary school teachers in the Peninsula Teaching School Partnership to improve their confidence in using the spoken language in the classroom through French improvement sessions incorporating phonics. St Cuthbert’s Roman Catholic Primary School in Durham, part of the Together to Succeed teaching school alliance, has used different teaching models with different groups of pupils to identify how best to teach reading and writing in French. Such arrangements are not something that we can dictate from Whitehall and Westminster; they need to be sorted out at a local level. In our view, decisions relating to teachers’ professional development rightly rest with schools, individual teachers and head teachers, as they are in the best position to make judgments about relative spending priorities and requirements.

My noble friend Lady Garden asked about language assistants. The DfE provides just over £500,000 a year to the British Council to fund the language assistants scheme. As she mentioned, this covers places for UK undergraduates and recent graduates to teach English in schools and universities overseas, but also supports placements for foreign undergraduates and graduates in UK schools teaching their native language. Approximately 660,000 pupils in English schools are taught by about 1,400 foreign language assistants each year. The noble Baroness also asked about imaginative materials that were developed under the key stage 2 framework. We are aware of these materials. They are very popular, and there is nothing to stop schools using them.

Ofsted inspections, which the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, referred to, are not subject-specific but ensure that the school curriculum is broad and balanced and that it meets the needs of all pupils. When foreign languages become compulsory from September, Ofsted inspections will consider them within this overall context, and guidance will be amended to reflect this.

On assessment, the chief inspector made a speech yesterday in which he dwelt at some length on the point that in future, Ofsted will be looking to schools to demonstrate that they have in place effective assessment methodology in relation to pupils’ progress annually. This is a very significant step in enhancing the accountability of schools, and we look forward to them using this in relation to languages.

The noble Lady, Baroness Warnock, raised the issue of the range of languages taught at primary level and the predominance of French. She will be pleased to hear that under this Government, Spanish has increased 41% at GCSE and we have substantial moves in place to expand Mandarin teaching. The Institute of Education’s Confucius Institute is leading the way. The British Council is also working with Hanban to increase the demand for Mandarin teaching in schools and to address supply—for example, by increasing the provision of Chinese language assistants.

I turn to home languages, in response to the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins. Teaching home languages can be included, although we would not want this to be at the expense of providing those pupils with an opening to languages and cultures other than their own. The noble Baroness, Lady Sharp, asked about classroom assistants. She had the fantastic idea of bringing in native speakers to support language teaching and learning in the classroom. In our view, it is important to be able to draw on a wide range of people to do this, even if they do not have qualified teacher status.

The noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, raised the issue of classics, which I know is very dear to his heart. I reassure him that from 2014-15 we have more than doubled the level of bursary that teacher trainees in classical languages will receive to match the amount that trainees in modern foreign languages get—up to £20,000 for a trainee with a first-class degree. As he mentioned, Classics for All is receiving £250,000 from the London Schools Excellence Fund. He also asked about a meeting to discuss the creation of more language teachers and training. I will suggest this to my honourable friend Liz Truss, who has responsibility for that area, to see whether she would like to meet.

A number of noble Lords spoke about pupils learning languages earlier, the importance of co-operation between primary and secondary schools, and working together in partnership. There is a bigger issue here. We have a big focus on GCSE results but, as we all know, in all subjects, not just languages, the grounding that pupils get in primary school is so important to enable them to go on to get those GCSEs. We are very keen on teaching school alliances, which I have mentioned—primaries and secondaries working in collaboration, and primaries working together. We are seeing a number of primary schools, which are often at a sub-critical mass, coming together and working in groups of academies—we have incentives to encourage them to do this—or secondary academies working with their feeder primaries. We believe that this development will be very productive.

I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, for her comments about what we are doing, and the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, for her support. In conclusion, by starting languages earlier, concentrating on fluency and confidence, raising standards at secondary level and encouraging greater take-up at GCSE and beyond—as our EBacc policy is already achieving—we aim to end England’s disastrous language drought, and to prepare the next generation to go out into the world with confidence and to reach their full potential.

Mesothelioma: Research Funding

Thursday 16th January 2014 Grand Committee

Question for Short Debate

[Baroness Jolly (LD)]

My Lords, this is a time-limited debate and time is going to be very tight. We have one speaker who has asked to speak in the gap, for a short amount of time, so it is really critical that noble Lords keep their comments to the time given in the list. Thank you.

17:00

Asked by

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress has been made in the funding of research into mesothelioma.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, today’s letter in the Daily Telegraph, signed by 13 Members of both Houses drawn from all parties, once again underlines the case for doing far more to find the causes of, and cures for, mesothelioma—a devastating disease which annually claims around 2,200 lives and which is likely to kill more than 50,000 more British people unless new treatments are found.

Let me begin by thanking my fellow signatories and all those taking part in today’s debate. This cause was one about which my good friend, the right honourable Paul Goggins, Labour Member of Parliament for Manchester Wythenshawe, felt deeply. He spoke extensively in Committee on the Mesothelioma Bill. He, and the Conservative Member of Parliament, Tracey Crouch, tabled amendments on Report, based on the amendments narrowly defeated in your Lordships’ House, which would have created a small levy to fund mesothelioma research. Just before the Christmas Recess, he and I once again beat a path to see Ministers to raise the plight of victims of mesothelioma. It was one of the last things that Paul did. After a massive stroke, which robbed him of life, and which robbed Parliament of a good and principled man, Paul was buried earlier today. Our thoughts are with his family. This debate, and the continuing fight for justice for victims of mesothelioma, and the need for sustained and adequately funded research, is the best tribute which we can offer him.

During our meeting at the Ministry of Justice with the noble Lord, Lord McNally, we asked about the review required by Section 48 of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012 into the effects on mesothelioma claims of its Sections 44 and 46. This brings us full circle, to the House of Lords debate, in which the House rejected the LASPO CFA reforms as sufficient to justify imposing legal costs on mesothelioma sufferers. When I tested the opinion of your Lordships’ House, noble Lords rejected the Government’s proposal that CFA reforms lifting damages for pain and suffering by 10% would compensate for the deduction of 25% of those same damages in success fees.

On 4 December, the Government issued a statement abandoning the consultation reforms in the face of overwhelming opposition from the claimant community, but stated that Sections 44 and 46 would be brought into force for mesothelioma sufferers, stating:

“The Government does not believe that the case has been made for mesothelioma cases to continue to be treated differently”.—[Official Report, 4/12/13; col WS 28.]

I refer the Minister to the recent Legal Ombudsman’s report on no-win no-fee agreements, stating that there is evidence of some lawyers failing to make clear the financial risks of conditional fee agreements and trying to pass on the risk to customers. That is precisely the situation your Lordships feared, and would not tolerate dying mesothelioma sufferers facing. That is why, on two occasions, we defeated those proposals and agreement was reached to have a review. However, as Mr Goggins and I made clear to the noble Lord, Lord McNally, there has been no review worthy of the name. The Government have simply restated their original argument.

The crucial point is that any scheme should deliver no less favourable compensation than is presently provided. Victims deserve nothing less. I hope that the Minister will comment on this. During our ministerial meeting, we linked this question to that of research because if cures and causes were identified, such issues would be otiose. In any event, investment in mesothelioma is in its own right desperately needed. The UK has the highest rate of the disease in the world. The annual number of mesothelioma deaths in the UK has nearly quadrupled in the last 30 years.

As I argued during the proceedings on the Mesothelioma Bill, it cannot be in anybody’s interests, not least that of the insurance companies, to pay out vast sums of money in compensation and to generate the full panoply of schemes, reviews, fees, CFAs and litigation, if causes and cures for mesothelioma could be identified. That is why, under the auspices of the British Lung Foundation, to which I pay great tribute, and with the assistance of the Department of Health, a handful of enlightened insurance companies—AXA, Aviva, RSA and Zurich—have been generously funding some of the research. However, as we know, that money has come to an end. A statutory scheme with a small levy on all companies would be both fairer and, perhaps more importantly, a sustained source of funds for research.

With this very small level of funding, the results have been impressive. New researchers from other areas of therapy have started to take an interest in mesothelioma, bringing with them new expertise and insights. Europe’s first mesothelioma tissue bank, which I think we will hear more about from the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has been created to collect and store biological tissue from mesothelioma patients for use in research, and work is being funded to identify the genetic architecture of the disease. The evidence demonstrates beyond doubt that investment in mesothelioma is worth while. However, all the original funding has now been allocated and we look forward to hearing from the Minister what new funding will be forthcoming to continue this work.

A sustainable, reliable voluntary agreement involving all or most of the 150 firms with an active interest in the employers’ liability insurance market would be difficult and impractical. It is for that reason that the Government will ultimately have to intervene in order to make this funding compulsory and fair, so that it is spread across the entire industry. I was particularly concerned to hear a defensive Minister, Mike Penning, say during debate in the House of Commons in his role as Minister of State at the Department for Work and Pensions,

“I cannot break the deal”—[Official Report, Commons, 7/1/14; col. 204.] ,

implying that the deal to get the Mesothelioma Bill through both Houses prevented a statutory levy being secured. Happily, as they say, that is now history and I hope that Ministers will look again at this question. The Conservative Member of Parliament, Dr Sarah Wollaston, who supports the proposal for a statutory levy, has told me that she would particularly like to see scientific research which supports the development of better technologies for preventing exposure and the emerging technology for real-time detection of asbestos fibres, which could significantly reduce the risk of avoidable future cases.

These small sums would make a huge difference to the future of mesothelioma research in the UK and could potentially lead to cures, which would save tens of thousands of lives. It is estimated that 150 insurance firms are active in the market and that a small contribution from each could raise a vital £1.5 million each year for research.

I now want to say something about the alleged lack of quality of research applications. On several occasions, the Government have suggested that the lack of research is due to the poor quality of research proposals and not the funding available. Happily, this misconception has now been thoroughly debated in the other place and Ministers have conceded that that is not the case. During the debates in the Commons, Paul Goggins referred to the work of Stephen Holgate, MRC Clinical Professor of Immunopharmacology at Southampton University and chair of the British Lung Foundation’s scientific committee. Stephen Holgate says:

“It is simply not true to state the quality of mesothelioma research applications is not up to standard”.

From what he called the “very meagre starting point” of existing funding, he says that the work already undertaken,

“has been of an exceptionally high standard”.

Therefore, the practical and moral case for the industry having a duty to fund mesothelioma research, and the Government’s responsibility to ensure that it does, is abundantly clear. However, it is also clear that, even if some funding were to be made available through the voluntary route, it alone would not address the core issue at stake here, which is sustainability. Therefore, while welcome, sponsorship of specific projects in isolation will not be an appropriate way forward. It is incumbent on us to find one that is.

With the opportunity having passed for putting sustainable future funding for research in the Bill, I hope that the Minister will today give a concrete guarantee for a long-term, sustainable research programme. Such a scheme could be achieved either though securing long-term investment from the insurance industry via a voluntary scheme or by introducing, as I hope we ultimately will, a statutory measure making contributions from that industry to fund mesothelioma research compulsory. However, we also need a commitment today that the Government will make this happen, a date by which the Government will ensure that a scheme is in place and an assurance that such a scheme will be of the value of at least £1 million every year.

Mr John Edwards, consultant thoracic surgeon at Sheffield’s Department of Cardiothoracic Surgery, sums up the arguments in the following way: first, that government, industry and insurers do not want to fund the immense costs of treatment, benefits and litigation for mesothelioma; secondly, that patients and their families would much rather have their lives back than any benefits or compensation; thirdly, that researchers have plenty of ideas but not enough funding; and, fourthly, that current treatments may have benefits in palliation of symptoms and a modest increase in life expectancy but do not cure the disease. In other words, there would be huge benefits to the health of the nation if the insurance industry were to invest likewise in research.

Mr Alan McKenna, an academic who teaches law at the University of Kent, has seen several members of his family contract asbestos-related diseases. Last week, he launched an e-petition to the Government calling for more research into mesothelioma. In the House, a Private Member’s Bill will shortly be introduced.

I read last week of a journalist who was in her 50s and who, like her nine year-old daughter who had died a year earlier of mesothelioma, had succumbed to the same fatal disease. We are all aware, too, that there have been fatalities among family members of several senior colleagues in both Houses; just before today’s debate, the noble Lord, Lord West, told me that 10 of his contemporaries at Dartmouth have died of mesothelioma. These may be added to the thousands of men and women who contracted this killer disease simply by going to their place of work.

17:10

[Lord Borwick (Con)]

My Lords, I declare my interest as a trustee of the British Lung Foundation. Lung diseases are predominantly diseases of the poor because they are often associated with tobacco. Because of this association, there is a strange guilt attached to lung disease, and so the level of research generally into lung diseases is very low.

Asbestos exposure is a subject that is correlated with workmen who dealt with asbestos in the construction or shipbuilding industry at a time when it was regarded as a safe, reliable fire protection. We now know that it is a killer. Like Jimmy Savile, that which was presented by the BBC as safe and cuddly turns out in reality to be a monster. It is very difficult to raise money for lung research because of this guilt complex and, as a result, the BLF has a turnover of about £6 million per annum, which is tiny in comparison with that of the British Heart Foundation. I am afraid that the British Government seem to have been affected by this as much as others. It is only recently that the Government have been working hard to help with fundraising for research into this, and of course they have been doing so against a background of a dreadful recession. It is hard to raise funding at this time.

If we look at breast cancer, a disease that 40 years ago was seen as being just as fatal as mesothelioma is now, the prospects have been transformed by good research and by attracting the best researchers into working on that subject, and the same could be done for lung disease. Normally I believe that the private sector will always be better than the Government at achieving almost anything, and I should pay tribute to the four insurance companies which funded the first three years of the research push. They are Axa, Aviva, Royal Sun Alliance and Zurich—heroes all. However, the insurance industry is beset by the problem of free riders—those who gain the benefit without picking up any of the cost. Notably this has happened in the car insurance industry, and even with modern number plate recognition the cost of uninsured drivers in accidents is an enormous burden on the price of motor insurance. Is that not structurally similar to the cost of insurance companies not contributing to the research fund for mesothelioma?

A general problem for lung disease is the guilt implied by the reaction of so many people. Even if people choose to smoke or do not have the ability to give up an addiction, no such criticism should possibly be made of mesothelioma patients. The sad thing is that Governments in the past have generally not treated the subject of lung disease with the importance or priority that other diseases have achieved. I do not want to criticise past Governments, but I will say that the general level of research into lung disease is much less than into other diseases. Of course, I applaud the work that the Minister has been doing in trying to negotiate more funds. The Government certainly believe that they are enlightened—even the whole source of enlightenment—so can I suggest that lung disease is a cracking good place to prove it?

17:13

[Lord Wills (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Alton, on securing this debate and on his persistence in pursuing this issue. I associate myself with his remarks about Paul Goggins, who was such a good—in every sense of that word—colleague in the other place and indeed in government.

In supporting what the noble Lord, Lord Alton, has said, I want to make two simple points in the short time allocated. In doing so, I recognise the commitment of the Minister and his ministerial colleague, the noble Lord, Lord Freud, to making progress on this issue. Indeed, I congratulate the Government on the significant progress made more generally in the Mesothelioma Bill; it is a significant advance on where we were just a few years ago.

My first point is that the need to place funding for research on an adequate and sustainable basis should be incontestable, as we have heard over and again in your Lordships’ House and in the other place, and we have heard it again here today. This is a dreadful disease that inflicts terrible suffering on thousands of people and into which research is significantly underfunded in comparison with other cancers.

My second point is that the Government need to act more vigorously to ensure that funding for research is put on an adequate and sustainable basis. There is no good reason for them not to do so. If the problem remains the quality of research proposed, as the noble Earl has suggested in the past—and, as he is well aware, that is disputed, as we have heard again today—then the Government need to do whatever is necessary to raise the quality of those proposals. I suggest that the single most important action they could take is to increase the sums of money available for research. It is hard to see how that would not work.

If Ministers are tempted into further inaction by arguments about the problems of hypothecation, they should not be: those arguments are misplaced. As we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, in the debate last year, that pass was sold when funding was first accepted in universities and other research institutions from non-governmental sources. I am not aware that accepting such funding has resulted in any dilution of the quality of research.

If the problem is shortage of funds—although the noble Earl has insisted in the past that it is not—then that, too, needs to be addressed. As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, has pointed out, the Minister in the other place has said that to ask the insurance industry to pony up more funding would disrupt the exhaustively negotiated agreement which was the basis of the Mesothelioma Bill. Is that really the case? Quite apart from the continuing moral responsibility of the insurance industry as a whole—leaving aside the notable exceptions that we have already heard about—the sum of money to significantly improve the research effort on a sustainable basis is a tiny fraction of the overall amounts involved and an even tinier fraction of the sums that insurers should have paid to sufferers over the years but have evaded doing so. For example, £3 million a year would double the amount currently donated by the private and voluntary sectors. Do the Government seriously think that a levy producing £3 million a year would so distress the insurance industry, which pays out £187 million a day to its customers—more than £68 billion a year—that the industry would walk out of the agreement or think that its fundamentals were disrupted in any way?

I ask the Minister to look ahead 10 years and ask himself how it will look to historians if the Government do not find a way around all the objections, no doubt spelled out in his brief today, to making real and quick progress on this matter so that they can agree the reasonable requests that have been made in the other place, and indeed here, by all who have spoken on this issue in the past year or so. How will it look if the Government fail to engineer the relatively small sums of money needed and so condemn thousands to avoidable pain and suffering? I am afraid that the longer the Government delay in finding a solution, the harsher will be the judgment of history.

17:17

[Lord Avebury (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Alton, has reminded us of the assertion by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, that progress on mesothelioma research was being held up not by the lack of available funding but by the absence of high-quality research applications. That has been refuted by a number of experts, notably Professor John Edwards, one of the foremost experts on this disease, who says that he and his colleagues have,

“identified that we could spend about £10 million instantly”.

Will the Government now acknowledge that there would be high-quality applications if researchers knew that a definite source of funding was available?

In 2012, £1.2 million was spent on mesothelioma research by the National Cancer Research Institute’s partners, so the loss of the net £880,000 available from the insurers represents a fall in total expenditure of no less than 43%. The British Lung Foundation says that the new community of researchers that it supported had,

“the potential to make real breakthroughs … of the kind we’ve seen in other types of cancer in recent years”,

but this is now under threat as the money has run out. As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, said, if a cure were found for this horrible disease, the enormous future costs of treatment, benefits and litigation arising from mesothelioma would be saved, benefiting not only the patients and their families but also the NHS, the DWP and the insurers. For this, we need ongoing work such as the research by the Sanger Institute, with two American groups, to identify the role that genes play in this disease. This could be the first stage in finding a cure, through chimeric antigen receptor cell engineering, a process in which T-cells are taken from the patient and genetically modified so that they link on to receptor proteins on the cancer cells and destroy them. This has already been used successfully to treat patients with acute lymphocytic leukaemia at the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia, which says that this is,

“another important milestone in demonstrating the potential of this treatment for patients who truly have no other therapeutic options”.

So there is a glimmer of hope for mesothelioma sufferers here, if only the research funding were available.

We understand that a new agreement would be needed for the industry to extend the funding that some companies have provided over the past three years, or better still to increase it in line with the fall of the value of money. If the Government then provided matched funding, as the Minister in another place indicated was being discussed between the DWP, the DH and the ABI, we could be looking at £2.4 million a year between 2014 and 2017. The Minister said the ABI had “gone to the industry” and would come back to him and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, with its answer and that that process continues. However, the ABI tells me that Ministers said plainly that they were not prepared to look at co-funding between the Government and the industry.

If joint funding could be agreed in principle, there would be an overwhelming case for all employers’ liability insurers to come forward with half the money. The total over the coming three years would match the amount spent in a single year on cancers with similar death rates, such as myeloma and melanoma.

As it is, we leave this debate without any solid assurance on the future of the research spend on a disease which is extremely painful and always fatal. We, too, have not been able to respond to the urgent need for research to deal with the consequences of previous Governments’ failure to act on the known risks of asbestos use, but this Government have not heard the last of the matter.

17:21

[Lord Kakkar (CB)]

My Lords, I join in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, on having secured this important debate, and in so doing declare my own interest as professor of surgery at University College London. Responding to discussion on Report on 17 July last year, the noble Earl, Lord Howe, made a number of important points with regard to the opportunity to build capacity in the research base available to address the important problem of mesothelioma. I would like to explore first with him what progress has been made in the four specific areas that he kindly mentioned during that debate.

The first was the opportunity for the National Institute for Health Research to seek the assistance of the James Lind Alliance to determine priorities with regard to mesothelioma research, bringing together not only the research community but patients and other stakeholders. Secondly, there was a commitment that the National Institute for Health Research would be in a position to issue a highlight notice to the research community identifying that the institute—in consultation, I assume, with the Office for Strategic Co-ordination of Health Research—had identified mesothelioma as a key national priority research topic, thereby activating not only research groups with a specific ongoing interest in mesothelioma but those with peripheral interests that could be brought to bear to address the question of mesothelioma research. I wonder whether that notice has been issued and, if not, when it is planned that it would be.

Thirdly, there was the offer that the National Institute for Health Research would make its research design service available to the research community, specifically to start identifying designs of clinical studies that could be undertaken to help to advance our understanding of mesothelioma research. Lastly, there was a commitment to bring together interested parties in research funding, particularly Cancer Research UK and the Medical Research Council, to have a conference of experts and those parties interested in mesothelioma research to determine how a national co-operative effort could be taken forward. I wonder whether any of those undertakings have indeed happened or in what timeframe it is planned that they might be discharged.

It is clear that the situation in which mesothelioma research finds itself is nothing new. At many times, and for many other diseases, there has been recognition that a new strategic research focus needs to be developed at national level. I would argue that with the National Institute for Health Research now well established and in place in the NHS in England, we are uniquely positioned to take forward a strategic approach, not only to building research capacity but in ensuring collaboration across those groups devoted at the moment to mesothelioma research and other groups who have technologies and interests—we have heard peripheral examples of the management of acute myeloid leukaemia—so that they are brought together with some strategic focus and direction. I wonder whether the Minister is able to provide your Lordships with an understanding of what point those discussions have reached.

In addition, we now have across the NHS in England well established academic health science networks, 15 of which cover the entire country. I declare my interest as chairman elect of University College London Partners. I wonder whether opportunities might be brought to bear for promoting research and collaboration between academic institutions, the NHS and industry, which are at the core of the purpose of the academic health science networks. Those 15 networks would then be asked to see how they might contribute, through their participant organisations, in a national research effort to promote further understanding and a more accelerated research programme on mesothelioma.

17:25

[The Lord Bishop of Newcastle]

My Lords, I, too, am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for initiating this short debate. I speak to support him and to encourage the Government to enable the establishment of a mesothelioma research funding scheme as urgently as possible. Research into this form of cancer is very much the Cinderella of cancer research in the UK, and there is an urgent need for us to do more and to do better.

I knew very little about mesothelioma until I became aware of its effects, not least through the early death in 2009 of the former Bishop of Peterborough, who some Members may recall. The knowledge that the cause of this cancer has been working away unknown and undetected in one’s body for 20 years or more suggests to me that much more research into detection and treatment is absolutely vital.

It is reckoned that this year over 2,000 people will die of the disease in the United Kingdom. We have the highest rate of the disease in the world, and a similar rate to those dying of myeloma and melanoma. However, the problem is that the funding for mesothelioma research lags far, far behind; it is only about one-tenth, from the figures that I have seen. If it is true that every single week an average of 20 tradespeople in the UK die from diseases such as this which are linked to exposure to asbestos during their working lives, then that is a tragedy.

I know that the Minister is sympathetic to the needs of all those who suffer from this terrible disease, and that he is sympathetic to the need for more research. If I may, I urge him to be really proactive in his work with his colleagues, academics, the NHS and the insurance industry to establish a sustainable research funding scheme. It is self-evident to me that more and sustainable funding will attract greater quality research to an area that has been neglected and underresourced for so long.

17:24

[Lord Giddens (Lab)]

My Lords, let me add to the chorus of praise for the noble Lord, Lord Alton, not only for initiating this debate but for all his extraordinary work around this issue. In the debate on the Bill in the Commons, it was said quite frequently that research into mesothelioma has a Cinderella status in terms of research funding. It is worth asking why that is so. It may reflect some generic issues, but I think that there are some specific ones.

The best way to consider this is not to be too parochial about it but to look around the world. When one does this, as I did in my admittedly amateur way, one finds exactly the same pattern in the European countries, in the United States, in Canada and in Australia. That suggests that we are dealing with a deeply structural problem, which has some specific features connected to this disease. Thus, for example, in the United States, according to the figures that I have, the National Cancer Institute until recently invested only 0.01% of its annual budget in research into mesothelioma. That suggests that there might be a powerful cluster of reasons that is producing this marginality in research terms. There are four of them, which I will briefly describe.

First, because of industry resistance—we all know the long history of that—most attention has been focused on reparation and legal wrangles. In so far as the disease is known at all to the wider public, it is mainly due to that history rather than to its own characteristics. Secondly, by its very nature it affects mainly working people, who do not have the political clout of the more affluent. Thirdly, in industrial societies, although not on a global level, it can be seen as an illness that will fade away naturally because asbestos is no longer used in industry and most of it has been disposed of, so it could be said to have a kind of natural life cycle. Fourthly, because of those things, the alleviation of suffering is often seen as important rather than the creation of research in a direct and systematic way into the disease that produces that suffering.

If noble Lords will forgive me for being academic and didactic about this, there are three policy implications of what I have described, which I would like the Minister to ponder and perhaps respond to. First, if we are to get more money spent on research—and there will be a need for public backing for that—the Government should consider spending more on a public awareness campaign about mesothelioma to ensure that it is understood as a structural disease in its own right and that it is disentangled from the legal histories that have so dominated its past. That has happened with lung cancer and smoking; the same thing should happen with mesothelioma.

Secondly, I feel strongly that the objective research should not be just to control symptoms but to search for a cure, as the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, mentioned. I checked some of the treatments in the United States and the debates about them; as I say, I am an amateur in respect of those treatments, but they seem pretty promising. Some new treatments have been admitted to the FDA’s fast-track programme in the US, including gene therapy, which was mentioned, immunotherapy and so on. We should look for a cure for this illness.

Thirdly, the most powerful reason for supporting research is not just that many thousands of people are still affected by mesothelioma and will die from it. As we know, thousands of people will do so, but there are even more powerful reasons than that to support research. A prime reason is that we need research into pathologies of environmental origin. We should remember that only 40 years ago or so asbestos was thought of as the miracle substance. We live in a world in which we ingest, breathe in and are in contact with thousands of substances that have never existed before. It takes about 40 years for mesothelioma to come out; a variety of other consequential diseases might be stored up there. There is therefore a great public interest in this, which stretches well beyond mesothelioma itself. I would appreciate a response from the Minister to those three questions.

17:33

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Alton for securing this debate. I pay tribute to him for his perseverance with this most distressing of subjects. We seem to be fighting a battle of attrition, one step backwards regularly following what we had thought to be two steps forward.

The importance of not letting up in our fight for mesothelioma sufferers came home to me last month, when the Christmas card from my closest school friend, Peter Wolfe, told me that he had been diagnosed with the condition, despite never having worked in any industry that could have triggered the disease.

We have been reminded of the estimated 50,000 people who may die over the next 30 years unless adequate treatments are found, and I suspect that this could be an underestimate. In Wales, cases of mesothelioma have risen sharply over the past 20 years. Whereas 23 cases were reported in 1990, by 2008 that number had jumped to 90, and according to Cancer Research UK, the latest estimate is about 109 new cases annually. That is partly because of Wales’s industrial legacy.

However, there are dangers for younger generations too. Some 85% of schools in Wales contain asbestos, compared to some 75% of schools across the UK. Almost 400,000 children and young people in Wales are exposed to the risks of this deadly material. The Cwmcarn High School is a case in point: it was forced to close in October 2012 after a survey found that pupils and staff were at risk from airborne particles of amosite asbestos. Responsibility for the management of asbestos in schools rests with the Welsh Government, but that of research rests primarily in the hands of the UK Government. As has been said, investment in such research is woefully inadequate. According to the National Cancer Research Institute, £400,000 was invested in mesothelioma research by its partners in 2011, compared with £5 million for myeloma and £5.5million on melanoma—two cancers with similar fatality rates.

The agreement in place over the past three years with the four leading insurance companies, generating £1 million a year for research, cannot be funded in the longer term. We tried but failed to get provision for a statutory levy during the passage of the Mesothelioma Bill. That could have raised £1.5 million a year for research.

As has also been mentioned, a similar amendment was tabled in the Commons by the late Paul Goggins, aimed at ensuring that research funding in this area would be permanent and effective. As he said in Committee:

“The problem, as the industry itself says, is not that some companies are not prepared to fund this; it is that not all of them are prepared to do so … we must have a formula and a system that means that everybody contributes according to their market share”.—[Official Report, Commons, Mesothelioma Bill Committee, 10/12/13; col. 15.]

As a result of his remarks, the Minister, Mike Penning MP, agreed to talk to the ABI about setting up such a broader agreement. I understand that a meeting has taken place, although nothing concrete has yet come out of it. Perhaps the Minister could clarify that in due course.

I associate myself with the tributes paid to Paul Goggins. It was poignant that Tracey Crouch MP had to move the amendments tabled in his name on Report shortly before he died. That amendment was defeated by 266 votes to 226. Responding to that debate, the Minister claimed that the additional research levy would nullify the deal reached by the Government, because the industry claims that a voluntary agreement with all 150 firms would be unmanageable. Is the industry to be granted a veto in this most vital area of research? The Government really must find a solution. If they cannot establish such a voluntary scheme, they must find other means of providing statutory funding. The more time that we waste in deferring this decision, the greater the number who will die.

It is not only people in the UK who are at risk. I conclude with Paul Goggins’s words in Committee in the Commons:

“We have the dreadful problem of mesothelioma in this country, and people will die from that dreadful disease, but we know that, because of the export and use of asbestos in the developing world—the so-called BRIC countries—the issues that we face now are issues that other countries will face in future. If we can advance the science and understanding of mesothelioma now, that might do great good not only in this country, but throughout the world”.—[Official Report, Commons, Mesothelioma Bill Committee, 10/12/13; cols. 9-10.]

I hope that the Government will listen.

17:38

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, 60% of patients diagnosed with mesothelioma are dead within a year. In Wales alone, care costs about £2 million per annum.

I want to focus on three essential areas of mesothelioma research that need funding. First, the long latency period between asbestos exposure and tumour development can be up to 50 years, so what triggers the disease? Secondly, is there a genetic element? Evidence suggests that some families are particularly at risk but the specific predisposing gene has yet to be identified, suggesting epigenetic factors. Thirdly, is there a tumour marker such as CD90, as recent research has suggested, for early mesothelioma diagnosis?

The Welsh Assembly’s Asbestos (Recovery of Medical Costs) Bill in November 2013 proposed to secure funding for NHS Wales to treat asbestos-related diseases and recognised the importance of research. Moreover, the British Lung Foundation, using funds from four leading insurance firms, has sponsored research at Cardiff University to develop a new laboratory model. Earlier diagnosis by markers may provide a treatment window. The Government can lever actions through the issues identified by the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, and others. This debate is a tribute to Paul Goggins, elegantly led by the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool.

17:40

[Baroness Wheeler (Lab)]

My Lords, I also commend the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for securing this debate and for ensuring that we keep the focus on the Government’s pledge on a package of measures to stimulate and build high-quality research into mesothelioma. There is optimism that progress is slowly being made but we are a long way from getting the secure and guaranteed funding on the scale we all want to see and which we recognise is vitally needed to offer hope to mesothelioma sufferers and to find a cure.

Noble Lords, and supporters of the Bill across all parties in the other place during last week’s Third Reading, have stressed our moral obligation on this issue in this country and internationally, as my noble friend Lord Giddens has underlined today. I also pay tribute to the vital contribution and role of Paul Goggins. I did not know him personally but certainly was fully aware of his work and reputation in my party, and of the respect in which he was held across Parliament. Now that the Bill has passed, I also pay tribute to the work of the British Lung Foundation and the campaigners, trade unions, MPs and Peers who have been lobbying for many years for justice for victims of this terrible disease. The BLF carer support project, in conjunction with Carers UK, is also developing vital support networks for carers and their families. It deserves special mention and recognition.

The Government have agreed that the scheme regulations will provide for a review of the operation and effectiveness of the scheme in four years’ time, which we welcome. On research funding, we must ensure that considerable progress has been made by then. The noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, again has ably underlined the need for a strategic, defined national initiative on mesothelioma research. I look forward to hearing from the Minister what actions are being taken on this. How will the current initiatives his department and the DWP are rightly pursuing be developed and built into a coherent strategy which will lead to real progress being made?

There is no doubt that the mesothelioma research programmes funded by the BLF itself, as well as jointly with the four insurance companies, and by other charities, have played an important role in kick-starting research and academic interest and laying the foundations for future developments. The meso-bank which is collecting tissue and blood samples from sufferers will provide the opportunity for fundamental and translational research. There are important projects too on palliative care and pain relief. I notice on the BLF website that it has recently awarded a further tranche of grants which will help to improve understanding of how the disease develops and progresses, and how our genes contribute to the disease.

We strongly supported the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for the 1% levy on the insurance companies, which would have provided secured and guaranteed research funding, and could have led to major advances and breakthroughs. It was sad to see this amendment again defeated in the Commons last week. As our shadow Minister, Kate Green, said, the levy,

“is very modest in the context of the overall scheme … a very modest sum for a multibillion pound insurance industry to afford, but a sum that could make an exponential difference to the scale of research that is possible into the disease”.—[Official Report, Commons, 7/1/14; col. 201.]

As we have heard, the DWP Minister of State, Mike Penning, cited the quality of research issue—on which there are clearly differing views among medical and research experts—but also rejected the amendment on the basis that it would “break the deal” with the insurance industry on the whole compensation scheme. It will be interesting to get further insight from the Minister today on why the insurance industry saw this issue in this way. I, too, look forward to the update on the ABI discussions that was promised by the Minister.

We know that the terrible reach of mesothelioma extends across all occupations and is not just an industrial disease. Indeed, it is anticipated that in the coming years more people will be diagnosed from all occupational backgrounds who have come into contact with asbestos or who contracted it via secondary exposure, such as wives who washed their partners’ overalls.

I was particularly concerned to learn of the huge problem of asbestos in schools, to which the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, referred. The risk or impact is not just on teachers but on children and ancillary and office workers. More than 70% of schools still contain significant amounts of asbestos. I am sure the Minister will agree that this frightening situation underlines the importance of making real and substantial progress on mesothelioma research, not just into treatment and cure but also into how the workplace can be protected.

Like other noble Lords, I look forward to hearing from the Minister what progress is being made on the joint DWP and Department of Health initiatives, and on the Government’s plans and timescales for developing the full-scale strategy for mesothelioma research that is so desperately needed.

17:45

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for having tabled this debate. Mesothelioma is, as we have heard, a terrible and devastating condition. There is no cure and uncertainties remain about the best available approaches to diagnosis, treatment and care. It is therefore completely right and appropriate that mesothelioma research has been discussed a number of times, both here in your Lordships’ House and in the House of Commons.

Funding is, of course, needed for further research to be carried out. The four largest insurance companies have previously made a donation of £3 million between them, and this is supporting valuable research into the disease. A higher level of funding has come from government—through the Medical Research Council and the National Institute for Health Research. Together, these funders spent more than £2.2 million in 2012-13.

The MRC is supporting ongoing research relating to mesothelioma at the MRC Toxicology Unit and is also funding two current fellowships. The NIHR is funding two projects in mesothelioma through its Research for Patient Benefit programme, and its clinical research network is recruiting patients to a total of eight studies, including industry trials. The NIHR funds 14 experimental cancer medicine centres across England with joint funding from Cancer Research UK, and these centres have four studies focused on mesothelioma.

However, as I have said previously, the issue holding back progress into research into mesothelioma is not—as a number of noble Lords have intimated—a lack of funding but the lack of sufficient research applications. I want to clarify and stress that the work currently being funded is of high quality, and that is consequent upon high-quality applications.

Money is available to fund more research, but measures are needed to stimulate an increase in the level of research activity. That is why the Government have committed to doing four things and I am delighted to have this opportunity to report on progress to the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, in particular, and other noble Lords who have spoken with considerable insight in today’s debate.

First, we promised to set up a partnership to bring together patients, carers and clinicians to identify what the research priorities are. This is now well under way and a formal launch event took place successfully last month. It is supported and guided by the James Lind Alliance, which is a non-profit initiative overseen by the NIHR Evaluation, Trials and Studies Coordinating Centre. The partnership has a steering group of 16 people, comprising six patient/carer representatives and 10 clinical representatives.

The next stage is a survey asking patients, families and healthcare professionals for their unanswered questions about mesothelioma treatment. The partnership will then prioritise the questions that these groups agree are the most important and the end result will be a top-10 list of mesothelioma questions for researchers to answer. The partnership plans to have the list ready by the end of this year, when it will be disseminated, and work will begin with the NIHR to turn the priorities into fundable research questions.

Secondly, the NIHR will highlight to the research community that it wants to encourage research applications in mesothelioma. The launch of this highlight notice will take place in advance of the identification of research questions by the priority-setting partnership to prepare researchers.

Thirdly, the NIHR Research Design Service will be able to help prospective applicants develop competitive research proposals. This service is well established and has 10 regional bases across England. It supports researchers to develop and design high-quality proposals for submission to the NIHR itself and to other national, peer-reviewed funding competitions for applied health or social care research. The service provides expert advice to researchers on all aspects of preparing grant applications in these fields, including advice on research methodology, clinical trials, patient involvement, and ethics and governance.

Finally, we have made a commitment to convene a meeting of leading researchers to discuss and develop new proposals for studies. Initiatives like this are one reason why it is so valuable to have the National Cancer Research Institute, the NCRI, which enables the major funders of cancer research to work in strategic partnership. I can report that NCRI officials held a meeting with clinical research leads yesterday, 15 January, to develop plans for bringing researchers together, and a representative from the British Lung Foundation also participated. The outcome was encouraging: the NCRI will be organising a mesothelioma workshop in the early summer with the aim of encouraging competitive grant applications in the field of mesothelioma. This will cover the full spectrum of basic, translational and clinical research.

Several noble Lords have—not unnaturally—spoken of a need for an ongoing role for the insurance industry in funding mesothelioma research. While the Government have money available to fund high-quality mesothelioma research proposals, we are also encouraging insurers to provide further funding. My honourable friend the Minister for Disabled People, Mike Penning, has met the Association of British Insurers, and following that meeting I have written to the association’s director general, Otto Thoresen. I am pleased to say that he has confirmed in a reply today that a further £250,000 will be paid directly to the British Lung Foundation. He has also confirmed the industry’s commitment to explore with the Government the range of future funding options. We would welcome another opportunity to meet insurers to discuss this.

[Lord Borwick]

I thank the Minister for that news. I also have a copy of the letter. The £250,000 is very useful, but it is less than one single claim from a sufferer of this disease. This has to be a short-term solution. If the voluntary agreement mentioned by the noble Earl does not happen for some reason, will the noble Earl push for legislation to make it happen compulsorily?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I note my noble friend’s question. My best answer to him at this stage is “one step at a time”. However, I can assure him that we will use our best endeavours to see a successful outcome from our discussions with the insurance industry. It is perhaps premature for me to go further at this stage.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister, and I promise not to interrupt again, but can he provide further clarity about this £250,000? Is it drawn only from the four companies that have been referred to? How many of the 150 companies are contributing to it? What does it represent in terms of what is currently available from the industry?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, as this is a time-limited debate, perhaps the noble Lord would accept my undertaking to write to him with those details. I am not sure, in fact, that I have them, because the letter, although extremely welcome, is quite brief in the detail it gives on the source of the funding.

[Lord Wills]

I am very grateful to the noble Earl for giving way. I shall be brief. Will he write within the next three months to everyone who has spoken today reporting on the progress of the conversations with the ABI about the range of options he has just referred to?

[Earl Howe]

I would be happy to do that.

Both the Government and the industry recognise the potential for insurers individually to sponsor specific research infrastructure or projects in mesothelioma, which would provide an excellent way for the industry to remain engaged following the earlier donation. I am pleased to report that the Department of Health is convening a high-level meeting with the association and the British Lung Foundation to explore practical ways to take that forward.

The noble Lord, Lord Alton, spoke powerfully about the need for sustainable funding in this area. I re-emphasise the point that I made a minute ago: research funding is available for good-quality research and what we lack are research applications. What we need, in our view, is to get innovative research ideas that will make a real difference, and that is what the NCRI meeting will hopefully do. The research ideas put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, in her intervention are of course very pertinent. She speaks with great authority in this area. They are all questions that the NCRI discussions can address. That meeting will be an opportunity to take a strategic approach, and it requires getting the right people together. The NCRI event will involve researchers from within the mesothelioma community, and from a wider field, and research funders.

It is worth noting that spend on lung cancer research by the NCRI member organisations, including the main public funders of cancer research, has more than quadrupled over the past decade. It has increased from £3.5 million in 2002 to £14.8 million in 2012. That is because of the quality of research proposals that have come forward and the interest shown by the research community.

In conclusion, the Government are strongly committed to ensuring progress is made in research into how best to diagnose and treat this dreadful disease, and care for those affected. A number of very powerful points have been made in this debate. I will pick up those that I have not been able to cover and will write to noble Lords. I have outlined the steps that we are taking, and I hope that noble Lords are assured that these measures will deliver what they, and indeed we in the Government, are seeking.

Committee adjourned at 5.56 pm.

House of Lords

Thursday 16th January 2014 Lords Chamber

Thursday, 16 January 2014.

11:00

Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Newcastle.

Stephen Ward

Thursday 16th January 2014 Lords Chamber

Question

11:06

Asked by

[Lord Dubs]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will release the full transcript of the Stephen Ward trial.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the Government cannot identify a full transcript of the Stephen Ward trial within their records. Full transcripts are not automatically created unless ordered by the judge or requested by the parties involved in the trial. The National Archives and the Crown Prosecution Service hold partial records of witness evidence given in the trial but a full transcript of proceedings may never have been created. The partial records contain sensitive information about people who are still alive. Disclosing such records would invite renewed and potentially unfair speculation about their activities. Accordingly, these records will not be released at this time.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, that is a very disappointing Answer and seems to me part of the cover up that has gone on since 1964. Does the Minister agree that the conviction of Stephen Ward is probably one of the most significant miscarriages of justice in modern British history and, while the establishment got its scalp, justice was not done? Can we at least have released the papers that are available because it is very likely that they would exonerate Stephen Ward and put right this enormous miscarriage of justice.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, as I am sure the noble Lord is aware, on 2 December 2013 the human rights barrister Geoffrey Robertson QC submitted a review of this case to the Criminal Cases Review Commission, which is, of course, an independent public body set up in March 1997 by the Criminal Appeal Act. Its purpose is to review wrongful convictions. It is currently reviewing the case and it would be inappropriate for me to comment further.

[Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)]

My Lords, the trial was fully reported in lascivious detail by the Times at the time in July and August 1963 with full-page and verbatim accounts of the cross-examination and the summing up. Accordingly, I see no reason why such papers as relate to the trial should not be released. Geoffrey Robertson said that Lord Parker, the then Lord Chief Justice—not the trial judge—had suppressed a transcript of the trial. Is that right? If so, under what power did he do so?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I was not around in 1964 to read the Times but I shall certainly look it up in the archives. Turning to the specific question, the issue remains that full transcripts are not automatically created and certainly, as I said in my earlier Answer, that is the case here. Six files are held by the National Archives relating to the Stephen Ward trial; five of these are open to the public, so there is partial availability. One file is closed. The closed file does not contain a full transcript of the hearing. However, it contains partial records of some elements of the hearing, including evidence given by individuals from the box. These records contain sensitive information about living individuals and also unsubstantiated allegations and it would be inappropriate to release those records at this time.

[Lord Hughes of Woodside (Lab)]

My Lords, I wonder if the Minister can help us. Can he tell us what the sensitive information is?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Unfortunately, I cannot. As I said, it is not available publicly. People may speculate but I think that I have been clear.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes (Con)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that we have original copies of the Times here, going back to the 18th century? I looked them up for the founding of Sydney University, and they are all available. Perhaps the Minister can suggest that the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, looks at those copies of the Times to which my noble friend has just referred?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I am sure that the noble Lord has heard that advice. I am also advised that my noble friend Lord Lloyd-Webber has a musical, as noble Lords will know, which has also been recommended as being well worth going to see.

[Lord Morgan (Lab)]

My Lords, is not the real problem in this case the policy of concealment that is repeatedly conducted by successive British Governments and key civil servants? Is not an American sociologist right in saying that the reason for this country being so badly governed is the curse of secrecy?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, the Americans are our friends and we listen attentively to their advice. However, I believe that we make the best decisions here in the light of our own justice system. As I have already said, the information which is being withheld is being so withheld to protect those who are still living. It is entirely appropriate that we protect their sensitivities.

[Lord McNally (LD)]

My Lords, will the Minister assure the House that sensitive files kept by the National Archives are not destroyed without Parliament being informed and having a full discussion about whether it is relevant to do so?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend of course speaks with great expertise as a former Minister responsible for this area. He is absolutely correct in what he has just said.

[Lord Richard (Lab)]

My Lords, I understand what the noble Lord is saying about files in the public archives, but for the life of me I do not understand why, if evidence was given at the trial, that evidence should not be made public. It was made public in the sense that, at one stage, it was given in public and people could hear it in public. What on earth is the justification now for not producing it?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

While the noble Lord makes the point that this evidence has been heard in an open court, it does not necessarily follow that all relevant transcripts are released. As I have already indicated, and will now repeat, there are certain sensitivities around what was revealed. Indeed, as the noble Lord will know, many people who gave witness testaments at the following Denning inquiry did so on the assurance that their records would be protected.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, could special arrangements be made for our colleague the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy of Nympsfield, to have special access to the one file which remains closed?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I have great respect for the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy. If certain records are held for another 100 years or so, may God grant him a long life.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

I do not think that the Minister has really answered my noble friend Lord Richard’s question. We are talking about evidence that was given in public, and the Government—the archives—now hold material relating to that, possibly transcripts of it. For some reason, a decision has been taken that, because of sensitivity, these cannot now be rereleased to the public. What are the criteria for deciding why something which is already in the public domain should be suppressed in the future?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, the Government have considered the published guidance. Indeed, the Information Commissioner’s Office has also given guidance that the disclosure of any personal data still will breach the data protection principles, even after that has been disclosed in an open court. Having considered this guidance and the relevant information, the Government have decided—I have made that quite clear—not to release the partial records of witness evidence at this time.

[Lord Grenfell (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord would say that, wouldn’t he?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

You may say that—I couldn’t possibly comment.

Credit Unions

Thursday 16th January 2014 Lords Chamber

Question

11:15

Asked by

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to allow civil servants to join and save with a credit union using payroll deduction.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, the Government support the work of the credit union sector and are investing up to £38 million in participating credit unions, to expand their service while reducing their delivery costs, by April 2015. The Government will not require departments to offer a facility for payroll deductions for their Civil Service workforce where these do not already exist. It will be for each department to consider the costs and benefits of offering such a facility.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, your Lordships’ House and the other place have given the Government a good example by setting up this facility a few weeks ago. Would the Minister meet with representatives of the credit union movement and me to explore how this could be rolled out across government? Also, what words does he have to encourage the private sector to offer such services to its staff as well?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I have just read that the noble Lord, Lord Freud, and Mr Iain Duncan Smith have joined the London Mutual Credit Union. It is open to all Members and the staff of both Houses to join that union. Part of the problem, as the noble Lord well knows, is that most credit unions are locally based and for other departments—such as the Home Office or DWP, with employees scattered all the way across the country—the cost of joining employees into a very large number of credit unions is rather complicated.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I wonder whether the Minister would accept that this Government are very much in favour of nudging. How much nudging is going on to get departments to take up this very big issue? The credit union movement is well worth supporting; it is supported on every side. I do not believe that it is helpful just to say that departments can make up their own minds. I hope that we can have some nudging.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, there is a lot of nudging going on but, as the noble Lord will know, there are employee-based contributions to credit unions and employer-provided contributions to credit unions. The Government are aware that it is not without cost to run an employer-based set of contributions, particularly, again, if you are trying to roll it out across the entire country, in which there are some 340 locally based credit unions.

[Lord McFall of Alcluith (Lab)]

My Lords, it seems that there is a need for more diversity in financial services. Would it not be a good example if the House were to send out a message that we are leading the way on this? The common bond is government employees, so that should be easy. In terms of pursuing this enthusiastically, could the Minister ensure that a cost-benefit analysis is undertaken and that it is placed in the Library, so that Members can see it and can have a part in ensuring that we push for a credit union and be an example to the rest of the country?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I will take that back and see what we can do about a cost-benefit analysis. I should mention that, apart from the Houses of Parliament, the other department of government that already has an employer-based credit union arrangement in place is the National Offender Management Service. Members will consider whether they think that is a good parallel to our work or not.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, while I am entirely in favour of the “nudging” to which my noble friend Lord Deben referred, what we really want is explicit, enthusiastic public encouragement by government Ministers of this very important movement.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, that is exactly the purpose of the credit union expansion plan.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon (Lab)]

My Lords, I am very proud to be associated with the scheme that extends also to members of the National Offender Management Service, as I think all Members of this House will be and should be. My noble friend made an important suggestion, namely that arrangements should be made for him, the Minister and somebody from the credit union to have access to somebody in each department to see how this could be pursued further. I would be grateful if the Minister could respond to that point.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I will take that back. My briefing says that this issue is not without cost in terms of payroll arrangements, but we will consider it and see what can be done.

[Lord Tyler (LD)]

My Lords, following the comments of my noble friend Lord Deben, can we at least expect a bit of joined-up government in terms of nudging different departments? If the difficulty is not one of principle but simply one of practicality, surely if one department can encourage this, others can too.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I think that we are about to trespass on the next debate. The Cabinet Office nudges other departments; whether it can direct them is a question on which the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, will no doubt touch in a few minutes.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan (CB)]

The Minister will be well aware of the popularity of credit unions in Australia, New Zealand, Canada and particularly the Republic of Ireland, where I think the figure of support is of the order of 50%. Am I right in thinking that the equivalent figure for the United Kingdom is somewhere between 1% and 1.5%?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I have 2% in my brief, but that is still a very small figure. Given the reduction in bank services in a number of areas in this country, this is an issue that we should all encourage. Noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, will remember the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury talking about the Church of England becoming more extensively involved in the credit union movement.

[Lord Clarke of Hampstead (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, asked for enthusiasm from the Government in this regard. Perhaps they could start by the Minister saying to his noble friend who represents the Department for Education, “Let’s have a go at getting schools interested in credit unions”, as the St Albans credit union has done. That body has had great success in getting youngsters into the habit of saving.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, that is another very useful suggestion, which I shall also take back.

Schools: Independent Schools

Thursday 16th January 2014 Lords Chamber

Question

11:21

Asked by

[Lord Lexden]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the level of public support for an open access scheme to independent schools.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Nash) (Con)]

My Lords, we have made no assessment of public support for the open access scheme. We want all pupils, regardless of the type of school they attend or their background, to receive a high-quality education. We are delighted that the independent sector is so willing to engage with the state sector, as it does on a number of fronts such as independent state school partnerships and bursaryships, but we want to spend taxpayers’ money in the state school sector. With that money, through our education reforms, we are transforming the state school system to ensure that every pupil has the opportunity they deserve.

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

I thank my noble friend and, in doing so, declare my interest as president of the Independent Schools Association and of the Council for Independent Education. Does my noble friend not agree that wider access to independent schools could make a powerful contribution to the greater social mobility that we all want? Has he noted that within the independent sector itself, where more than a third of families now pay reduced fees, among heads and teachers there is considerable enthusiasm for more open access, which need involve no increase in public spending? In 1940, Churchill said that the advantages of the public schools should be extended on a far broader basis. Is it not time that we got on with it?

[Lord Nash]

My Lords, I know that my noble friend is passionate about social mobility through education and I look forward to the Independent State Schools Partnerships conference next Monday, at which we are both speaking—a conference designed to promote partnerships between independent and state schools. As he said, the independent sector has a long history of increasing social mobility through bursaryships, scholarships and collaboration. In 2013, it provided more than £300 million worth of assistance, benefiting 40,000 children, and we absolutely applaud this. However, our priority is to invest our resources in making sure that all state schools provide an excellent education for their pupils, which in the end will be the greatest means of achieving much higher levels of social mobility, which I know all noble Lords wish to see. Our reforms are particularly focused on poorer children through, for instance, our pupil premium and Ofsted’s focus on the progress that pupil premium pupils make.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree with Sir Michael Wilshaw that private schools should be doing much more to collaborate with, and support, the state school sector, rather than, as he described it, being guilty of just giving the “crumbs off their tables”?

[Lord Nash]

As the noble Baroness says, I would like to see private schools doing more, but I think the way to encourage them to do more is to engage with them in a collaborative way. That is what we intend to do.

[Baroness Humphreys (LD)]

My Lords, I am pleased to hear the Minister agree that we are all anxious to improve the social mobility of pupils. Indeed, the open access scheme purports to do that, but it is a heavily means-tested scheme, which relies on taking the very brightest pupils and the funding that comes with them into the private sector. Does the Minister not agree that this could be a scheme that is tantamount to providing public funding for the independent sector?

[Lord Nash]

If one had such a scheme, I think there might be ways of avoiding that. I agree entirely that we should be increasing social mobility for all pupils. Although the independent sector does a fantastic job, according to the Sutton Trust, which promotes the open access scheme, its 7% of pupils get 50% of the top jobs. Pupils from grammar schools, which educate 5% of the population, get more than 20% of the top jobs. We are focused on ensuring that the 90% of children who go to other schools, who currently get only somewhere between 25% and 30% of those jobs, get a much higher share of that take in the future.

[Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)]

Does the noble Lord agree that, if the parents of the 7% of the nation’s children who attend independent schools were to apply their zeal for educational excellence to the maintained sector, we would see a vast improvement in social cohesion and educational performance?

[Lord Nash]

The noble Lord makes a very good point; that may be the case. If the Labour Party had abolished state education, that would have happened, but we are where we are. We have an excellent independent sector and we should learn from it and collaborate with it.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Will my noble friend explain why, if the Government are in favour of the money following the pupil and in favour of extending choice, they are not in favour of getting the best value for money and of ensuring that people get the best possible education by making resources available to those who cannot afford to go to independent schools so that they can do so?

[Lord Nash]

There are plenty of schemes, such as the Buttle UK springboard, which encourage pupils to go to independent schools. Even if we got a third of independent school places occupied by poorer pupils, we would still be dealing with only 2% of the population. We believe that our money is better spent trying to improve the educational chances of the majority of children.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, where do the figures that the noble Lord referred to come from? On what basis was the valuation made, and what was it of?

[Lord Nash]

They come from the subsidy that independent schools give on fees that would otherwise be paid by parents, which they find from their own resources or from charitable raising activities.

[Lord Dykes (LD)]

Does my noble friend agree that, if children from poorer families go to rather grand private schools, they can sometimes have a rather rough time when they first arrive and so on? What measures can the Government encourage those schools to take to make it socially easier for them to integrate?

[Lord Nash]

The noble Lord makes a very good point.

[Lord Lawson of Blaby (Con)]

No, it is a very bad point.

[Lord Nash]

I was a trustee of Eastside Young Leaders Academy, which focuses on improving the life chances of black boys in the East End. It has already sent 21 pupils to private schools under full bursaryships. One of our concerns was integration and we spent a lot of time working on that. I know that schools that take pupils from diverse backgrounds work very hard to make sure that the transition works.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, did not the previous Conservative Government introduce the assisted places scheme and would it not be a very positive thing to reintroduce something similar?

[Lord Nash]

The assisted places scheme provided valuable support for pupils, who benefited from a place at an independent school, which their parents might not otherwise have been able to afford. The scheme was abolished by the Labour Party in 1998 so that that money could be spent in the state sector. We agree with that sentiment. Our policy is that resources should be targeted at improving state funding for all pupils rather than supporting a minority.

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

It is worth reminding ourselves that the abolition of the assisted places scheme so that its money could be used in providing free nursery school education was one of five pledges in the 1997 manifesto of the Labour Party—a small number of pledges—and that partly as a result of those pledges, the Labour Party won the general election with a majority of nearly 200.

[Lord Nash]

I am sure that the noble Lord’s facts are entirely accurate.

Central African Republic

Thursday 16th January 2014 Lords Chamber

Question

11:30

Asked by

[Baroness Berridge]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their response to the failure of the transition government and the growing crisis in the Central African Republic.

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con)]

My Lords, our immediate priorities are to stop the appalling violence in the Central African Republic, to protect civilians and to ensure humanitarian access. The UK worked to secure UN Resolution 2127 in December. We are now working closely with France and our international partners to support the African Union force and the UN mission. In addition, we have allocated £15 million for humanitarian assistance and provided three airlifts for the French military.

[Baroness Berridge (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for her comprehensive Answer. Just this week, the Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights team confirmed that certain ex-Seleka perpetrators of human rights abuses are Chadian nationals, even wearing the armbands of the Chadian FOMAC peacekeepers, and credible testimonies were found of collusion between Chadian FOMAC peacekeeping and ex-Seleka forces. The people of the Central African Republic therefore have good reason to view Chadian international peacekeepers as a threat. Can the Minister confirm that it is Her Majesty’s Government’s position that any peacekeeping force, whether under a UN, AU or MISCA mandate, should not contain troops from Chad?

[Baroness Warsi]

The current African Union MISCA force has contributions from Burundi, Cameroon, the Republic of the Congo, Guinea and Chad. I take on board the concerns that my noble friend has raised, and we of course keep under review the lead in these matters. However, it has been felt that at this stage the African Union lead is a right way forward.

[Baroness Kinnock of Holyhead (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that a key driver of the conflict in the Central African Republic is, and has been, the wealth of mineral resources to be found there, including diamonds, gold, uranium, copper and petroleum products? Will the Minister tell us whether discussions are taking place about how to ensure that there is adequate oversight of the management of the extraction and trade of minerals so that the people can at last enjoy the right to benefit from that lucrative industry?

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Baroness is right; that has been an underlying factor to much of the violence that we have seen in the country. I am not aware of what specific conversations have taken place in relation to oversight of the industry to which she referred. I will check and certainly write to her.

[Lord Chidgey (LD)]

My Lords, Gérard Araud, the French Ambassador to the UN, has confirmed that French and AU forces are confronting a near-impossible situation in the CAR. The BBC in Bangui this morning reported that John Ging of the UN is calling for,

“a huge international effort to tackle this situation”.

Does my noble friend therefore accept that the deployment by the United States of two C-17 aircraft to fly in 800 Rwandan troops over the next month will still be woefully inadequate? Will the Government make good the C-17 logistical shortfall to accelerate the delivery and scale of the peacekeeping force and to reduce the rising risk of genocide, which we all fear?

[Baroness Warsi]

My noble friend is right; there is an absolutely appalling situation on the ground. The violence has been seen by many of us on our TV screens as the news reports have been coming out. We currently have about 3,500 troops deployed there as part of the African Union force and I understand that a total of about 6,000 will be deployed—there are about 1,600 French troops deployed. We have responded to requests from the French for three airlifts, which took place in December. We will of course respond to any further requests for support. My noble friend may be aware that there is a European Foreign Affairs Council meeting on Monday, and further options may well be discussed there.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, can the Minister reflect on the role that outside insurgents are playing in the Central African Republic? Can she tell us what the Security Council is doing to ensure that the western borders of the republic are secured, so that organisations such as Boko Haram are not able to influence events inside the CAR, where jihadists are already present?

[Baroness Warsi]

The information that I have from my brief—although I stand to be corrected by the noble Lord, who is greatly experienced in the area—is that the situation has at this stage been contained within the borders of the Central African Republic. There are some concerns about external elements and a potential religious element to this developing, and we are of course keeping an eye on that.

[The Archbishop of York]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that the scale of the crisis is very large? I am grateful for what the Government are doing in response to this particular crisis, but will they use their offices in the European Union to make sure that all nations take part in dealing with this rather appalling situation? I am not confident that the African Union actually has the capacity to deal with the situation, much as it is on the ground. I hope the Minister can give us some comfort by confirming that the Government are talking to our European allies to ensure that whatever is needed is provided. Otherwise, we will end up with genocide and pictures on our television screens that will make all our stomachs churn day by day.

[Baroness Warsi]

I take on board what the most reverend Primate has said. Going back to the European Union and the Foreign Affairs Council meeting on Monday, an options paper has been circulated which is currently under discussion. A number of options have been presented in that paper. At this stage, however, we are going back to the United Nations Security Council Resolution 2127 from December, which agreed that it was appropriate for the African Union to lead on this and for the French troops to carry on with their deployment.

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab)]

My Lords, whatever action is taken right now to deal with this horrific emergency, there will be a need for action afterwards, following any stabilisation, both to build the capacity of the state in the Central African Republic and to try to promote reconciliation between the Christian and Muslim communities, which at the moment are tearing each other apart. Can the Conflict Pool or the Building Stability Overseas Strategy of the UK Government make a contribution to either that process of state building or that process of reconciliation, which will be so important on the ground in the aftermath of the current crisis?

[Baroness Warsi]

I completely agree with the noble Lord; it may well be one of the things we will be considering. The situation that we are facing at the moment means that we have to deal with the immediate violence. The whole point of having the transitional appointments of the president and prime minister, both of whom resigned only last week, was to enable a process to take place in which there would be elections within 18 months of April last year. Unfortunately, the violence has not stopped under the transitional government. There are expected to be further elections for a further transitional government within the next 14 days and then further elections will take place with a process behind them for political discussions. It may well be that at that stage, it will be right for the UK to be involved in the stabilisation work.

Business of the House

Thursday 16th January 2014 Lords Chamber

Timing of Debates

11:37

Moved by

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

That the debates on the motions in the names of Lord Hennessy of Nympsfield and Baroness Lane-Fox of Soho set down for today shall each be limited to 2½ hours.

Motion agreed.

Business of the House

Thursday 16th January 2014 Lords Chamber

Timing of Debates

11:37

Moved by

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

That the Question for Short Debate in the name of Baroness Ford set down for Wednesday 22 January shall be limited to one hour.

Motion agreed.

House Committee

Thursday 16th January 2014 Lords Chamber

Motion to Agree

11:38

Moved by

[The Chairman of Committees]

That the 1st Report from the Select Committee (Sanctions for Breaches of the Code of Conduct) (HL Paper 91) be agreed to.

[The Chairman of Committees (Lord Sewel)]

My Lords, from time to time, the House believes it is right and proper to impose sanctions on Peers who have been found to be in breach of the Code of Conduct. That is always a difficult and unpleasant business. There are currently only two sanctions available to the House. Peers found in breach of the Code of Conduct can be required to apologise. The other sanction available to the House is that of suspension. The House does not have the power to expel and, without primary legislation, it cannot give itself that power.

The impact of suspension is severely constrained by the fact that a suspension expires at the end of the Parliament in which it is imposed. This can give rise to major unfairnesses. Behaviour which the House feels warrants a lengthy suspension may be subject to a relatively short period of a few weeks if it is imposed towards the end of a Parliament. The situation could well arise where behaviour that was a serious breach of the Code of Conduct resulted in an effective suspension for a shorter time than a much less serious breach of the Code of Conduct, merely due to the stage in the Parliament when the sanction was imposed.

The House Committee was of the view that such an outcome would be unfair. The House Committee was also of the view that it would be helpful to have some alternative sanctions which fall short of full suspension but are greater than an apology. The remedy proposed by the House Committee is the introduction of two new sanctions. The first sanction would prevent Peers from claiming any financial support by way of expenses or allowances from the House. The second sanction would prevent Peers from using the facilities of the House. Neither of these sanctions would prevent the Peer from taking part in the proceedings of the House in the Chamber or its committees. These sanctions could be used in addition to suspension from the House or as an alternative to suspension. Unlike suspension, the sanctions could be applied for a period extending beyond the end of a Parliament. They would be applied for a fixed period and therefore are not equivalent to expulsion. They would not be retrospective. The Clerk of the Parliament’s advice is that these sanctions are compatible with both the Letters Patent and the Writ of Summons.

As to the process, it would be for the Sub-Committee on Lords’ Conduct and the Committee for Privileges and Conduct to recommend the appropriate sanctions, and it would be for the House as a whole to agree them. The two committees consider all cases on an individual basis and are able to take into account the individual circumstances of Peers in recommending proportional sanctions. I beg to move.

[Lord Scott of Foscote (CB)]

My Lords, I rise not to criticise in any way the intent behind the proposed new sanctions, but to question a little the scope of the sanction referred to under paragraph 1(b):

“denial of access for a specified period to the facilities in the House”.

Paragraph 2 sets out what might on one footing be examples of the facilities access to which is to be denied and on the other footing might be thought to be intended to be definitive of the facilities that are to be denied. A number of the facilities of the House are not mentioned in paragraph 2—the most obvious of which is use of the lavatories of the House. There are other facilities, such as hanging up one’s hat and coat downstairs and things like that.

If paragraph 2 is intended to be definitive, those facilities would still be available. If all facilities are to be denied, those facilities would not be available. If paragraph 2 is intended to be definitive, what is the scope of the proposal that dining and banqueting facilities be denied? Does dining include luncheon or tea? Does it include any use of the House Dining Room? These may seem nit-picking criticisms, but it is important if new sanctions are to be introduced that their scope should be clear and understood and not capable of ambiguity.

[Lord Richard (Lab)]

I have to confess to the House that I do not like this proposal. It is basically expulsion, but not named as such. What is the person who is the object of these sanctions supposed to do? It is said that he is entitled to remain a Member of the House and is entitled to come here, but will be denied all the facilities which are deemed necessary in the case of every other Member of the House to do that actual job. If we are going to go down the road of saying that we should expel Members from this House, we should do that openly and not, with respect, by a back-door sidle. We are talking in effect of expelling people from this House but are not prepared to name it as that.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

I would add a gloss to what the noble Lord has just said. As I understand it, we do not have the power to suspend the effect of a Writ of Summons to the House. That would open a whole bag of snakes.

[The Chairman of Committees]

My Lords, paragraph 2 of the report is, in fact, a definitive list. The dining facilities and banqueting facilities are, in effect, all the facilities that are under the control of the Refreshment Committee. It is not a series of examples; it is a definitive list.

It is not expulsion because it is for a defined period of time, a limited period of time, so the Member can resume full activity and have full access to the financial support and facilities of the House. We do not have the power to expel. That would require us to receive it through primary legislation and the advice from the Clerk of the Parliaments is that these sanctions are totally compatible with the Writ of Summons and the Letters Patent.

Motion agreed.

The Future of the Civil Service

Thursday 16th January 2014 Lords Chamber

Motion to Take Note

11:45

Moved by

[Lord Hennessy of Nympsfield]

That this House takes note of the future of the Civil Service.

[Lord Hennessy of Nympsfield (CB)]

My Lords, this may strike you as a genuinely perverse opening remark, but I truly regret the need for this morning’s debate. Why is this? It is because I wish we lived in a well managed state, praised for the quality and delivery of its public services, admired for its ability to complete grand projects on time and within budget, overseen by a Whitehall where—the odd emotional spasm apart—the crucial relationships between Ministers and officials were always and everywhere in good repair. I fear that these tests are not universally met.

However, there is no need to succumb to excessive pessimism nor to unleash a relentless cataract of anxiety or criticism. There is still a lustrous quality to our great tradition of non-politically partisan public service, transferable from one Government to the next along with its perpetual duty of speaking truth unto power; of telling Ministers what they need to know rather than what they wish to hear. As a country, we also possess a considerable, usable past in the history of our conduct of central government. Public service has always attracted capable and well motivated people and it still does. However, each generation has a duty to revisit the traditional verities afresh; to test old models and established practices against new needs and, quite rightly, ever more stretching delivery requirements, while facing up to examples where performance has not risen to the level of events.

It is a very long time—48 years—since a Government commissioned a wide-lens review of the Civil Service when Harold Wilson and his Chancellor, Jim Callaghan, set up the Fulton inquiry in 1966. The Fulton story is not an entirely happy one but it is not for reprising this morning, save to note a serious flaw in its remit when Mr Wilson steered the committee away from the crucial, central question of relationships between Ministers and civil servants. It is this terrain upon which I would like to descend first in today’s debate.

These relationships, which make up what I would call the governing marriage between temporary Ministers and permanent officials, depend upon confident Secretaries of State and confident civil servants in candid symbiosis, raising the quality of each others’ game. The relationship rests on a three-way deal. The deal is the product of two key enquiries—the Gladstone-commissioned Northcote-Trevelyan report of 1854 and the Lloyd George-commissioned Haldane report of 1918—plus a good deal of practical, everyday experience of working our constitution by Whitehall generations past. Deal one is non-political civil servants speaking truth unto power in private. Deal two is reciprocal: in return for such candour, Secretaries of State carry the can in public, even if things have gone wrong in places over which Ministers did not have direct control. Deal three is a valuable, high level of continuity within the state thanks to the career Civil Service transferring between Administrations without a clean sweep of top posts, as happens in the United States.

The triple deal has been under stress for a good while now due to a number of largely post-Fulton developments. The first has been the arrival of special advisers in some quantity. Although a valuable and vitalising factor in many ways, this has complicated the old-style governing marriage and, in some unfortunate instances, has injected poison into it. The second is the truly welcome development of departments shadowing House of Commons Select Committees since 1979, which has brought senior civil servants into a public and parliamentary limelight experienced previously only by accounting officers appearing before the Public Accounts Committee. This has altered for ever the old calculus of official accountability to Parliament.

As an outside observer, I am struck by the scratchiness in some, but by no means all, current Whitehall departments between the partners to the governing marriage to the point where there are suggestions that elements of the old deals are but Victorian relics that clutter up the path to more effective and efficient government. It is genuinely ironic that, with the ink scarcely dry on the sections of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010 enshrining at last the 1854 Northcote-Trevelyan tenets, one should hear whispers in Whitehall that if less dramatic reform measures fail, the 2010 Act should be amended to allow Secretaries of State to have the predominant say in who will be their Permanent Secretaries, a process known in the shorthand as ministerial choice.

Place the question of ministerial choice alongside the new development of extended ministerial offices—EMOs—a fusion of Whitehall private offices with a variant of the French Cabinet system announced last summer in the Cabinet Office document, Civil Service Reform Plan: One Year On Report, and you have what some would see as a combined move towards a real, if unacknowledged, politicisation of the senior Civil Service. Is this a creeping politicisation that dare not speak its name? Certainly, it is the coming of the EMO plus the question of ministerial choice that has proved to be the weathermaker within the wider debate about the coalition’s Civil Service Reform Plan.

I was fortunate to have an on-the-record interview with the Prime Minister last October about, among other things, the new extended ministerial offices and greater ministerial choice. Mr Cameron sought to reassure on both points. I asked him first if he sensed a whiff of danger of the politicisation of the Civil Service through the extended private office. “I don’t”, he said, continuing:

“I think that one of the things that makes the civil service great and makes civil servants proud to be civil servants is that they are not political … I think one of the most exciting things for a civil servant is the transition from one government to another; it’s a great test of professional people”.

The Prime Minister went on to explain that EMOs would allow Secretaries of State to have more back-up with, and I am quoting his words,

“some experts, a bit of implementation, some special advisers. That’s quite like what the Prime Minister has. It’s quite like what some Ministers have already put in place. I think it’s growing organically. I’m helping giving it a nudge along”—

there is the word “nudge” again. Mr Cameron also sought to reassure on ministerial choice in Permanent Secretary appointments. He believed that the process,

“has been constrained, I think, rather excessively in recent years so that there is one name and the Prime Minister either has to say ‘yes’ or ‘no’ … I don’t think we should have ended up in that position. I think it would have been better for one or two people to get over the line, as it were. Then the Prime Minister, in conversation with the Cabinet Secretary and perhaps the Secretary of State, to make the decision. I do not think that that’s politicisation. I think that’s just the ability of a government to make sure it’s got the right people in place to carry out the government’s policy”.

The Cabinet Office Minister with day-to-day responsibility for the Civil Service, Francis Maude, has given me similar reassurances that the coalition’s intention is not to politicise. Yet for all these reassurances, the Civil Service Commission, the instrument Mr Gladstone created to nurture and protect the Northcote-Trevelyan reforms, plainly remains concerned. The chairman of the commission, the former Home Office Permanent Secretary, Sir David Normington, has been engaged in what one might call a rolling conversation on these matters with Francis Maude.

So, where are we now? Mr Maude paused the question of more ministerial choice last year. The pause is due to end soon. On Monday, the Civil Service Commission launched a public consultation on its recruitment principles. The commission noted that the Government proposed in its 2012 Civil Service Reform Plan that Secretaries of State should be able to choose from a list of appointable candidates as assessed by an independent panel. In last year’s document, Civil Service Reform Plan: One Year On Report, the Government added a new proposal that it should be the Prime Minister, rather than the individual Secretary of State, who possessed the final choice.

In Monday’s consultation document, the Civil Service Commission declares:

“In our view—and that of our predecessor Commissions—merit is best assessed by a process which has independent oversight, is objective and evidence-based. The risk in the Government’s proposal is that it could lead to a Secretary of State substituting his or her personal view of merit for the outcome of an independent, objective assessment process. We doubt whether that is compatible with the legal requirement and it risks candidates being seen to be appointed on the basis of personal or political patronage”.

Those are strong words from the Civil Service Commission. It is striving to clarify and refine the appointments process while retaining the essential Northcote-Trevelyan principles. To this end, it is consulting on two future possibilities. The first would be to go with the new guidance on recruitment principles that the commission published a year ago in response to the Government’s Civil Service Reform Plan. This included, and these are the commission’s words,

“for the first time a provision enabling a panel to seek a Secretary of State’s view on candidates of equal merit after final interviews and before it reached a final decision on the recommended candidate”.

The second possibility canvassed in the commission’s consultative document is, and I am quoting,

“Where a panel assesses two or more candidates to be of equivalent merit … it may put those candidates to the Prime Minister for decision. He should then make the final decision, which must still be made on merit, in consultation with the Secretary of State and Head of the Civil Service”.

I have lingered on this terrain because it spans a first order question. I accept that the Prime Minister and Mr Maude do not intend to turn Whitehall into Washington, but I share the anxieties of the Civil Service Commission. To abandon the Northcote-Trevelyan principles would be a national own goal of considerable proportions.

The real test will come not when the first EMOs are set up this year, nor perhaps even when the next batch of Permanent Secretary appointments are made, though Parliament and its Select Committees will need to keep a careful eye on both. On the creation of EMOs, Civil Service Commission approval will be needed for outside recruits brought in for their specialist knowledge at Whitehall director level or above—a welcome safeguard. The true test will bite when a new Government of a different political colour takes office.

If greater ministerial choice of Permanent Secretaries has happened and several EMOs are in place—especially if they have morphed into central directorates, essentially departments within departments—might not the new Secretaries of State feel that they are inheriting a senior Civil Service that has, to quite a high degree, been politicised? True, these new Ministers will be able to create their own EMOs afresh, but is there not a risk of a future Government saying no doubt, with regret, we must replace the senior career officials too with bespoke civil servants of our own choice? Should that happen, the Northcote-Trevelyan principles would effectively have been abandoned and our Civil Service will have passed through a one-way valve.

It is my belief that our Civil Service does not belong to any single party or any single Government—rather, it is a national asset of central importance to Parliament and all our people. If its essential DNA is to be changed, it must be done so openly and on the basis of as high a level of consensus as possible. To achieve this, much care and forethought is required, which brings me to another question that has exercised Parliament over the past year: the need for a very substantial inquiry into the overall condition of the Civil Service as a central capability for the nation in the 21st century.

When I talk to younger officials, their eyes are not just on Northcote-Trevelyan—though they are—they are acutely sensitive to a whole range of pressing concerns that are already in play or may become so during their career lifetime. Such matters embrace the very configuration of the United Kingdom, with the possibility of independence for Scotland, of a UK intact or not, facing life in a cold economic climate outside the European Union in the 2020s—the size and scope of the state, including levels of public spending, the scale of our welfare state and the continuing affordability of our top flight defence capabilities. In my judgment, these factors powerfully reinforce the case for a broader gauge inquiry into the Civil Service.

Last week, the Government replied to the fine report Truth to Power, produced the Commons Public Administration Select Committee, led by Bernard Jenkin. I should declare that I gave evidence to PASC. To my regret, the coalition said that it does not accept the committee’s assessment that the evidence for a,

“comprehensive strategic review of the nature, role and purpose of the Civil Service is overwhelming”.

In my judgment, this reply is as misguided as it is disappointing. Last November, no fewer than 17 other Select Committee chairs, with no recorded dissenters, backed PASC’s call for a joint parliamentary commission on the Civil Service in the Liaison Committee’s report entitled Civil Service: Lacking Capacity. In our interview last October, the Prime Minister did not, however, close his mind to such a possibility when I raised it with him. He said:

“There’s nothing … to stop Parliament, if it wanted to, to set up its own Commission on Civil Service Reform, and it has now, it’s got a committee”—

he is referring to PASC—

“they’ve had an inquiry. They can go on having inquiries if they want. He”—

I think he means Bernard Jenkin—

“was asking me do I want to set up a Royal Commission. No I don’t at the moment. Maybe it would be a good idea in the future”.

I profoundly hope that the Prime Minister will reconsider. David Cameron has a shining opportunity to stimulate a modern Northcote-Trevelyan/Haldane equivalent, and something a bit more, either by encouraging a parliamentary commission or creating an inquiry on which non-parliamentarians could sit. It need not stymie, as some in the Cabinet argue, the Civil Service reforms that are under way—far from it. The Civil Service does not, and I am sure would not, sag back with relief if such an inquiry was established.

I am not a “golden ager” or a seeker after what the much missed Lord Dahrendorf once called “a better yesterday”—I think he was rather unkindly referring to the SDP. Can we see in the hand that history has dealt us—that extraordinary mixture of people and processes and that jumble of departments overseen by a centre which some say is too powerful and some say too weak—the ingredients of a highly functional, self-regenerating, top-flight system of government? We need the inquiry and we need it soon. David Cameron has the chance to do a Gladstone and a Lloyd George for the 21st century. I hope he seizes it.

12:02

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, on bringing this important debate to the House. It seems these days in this place, that the more important the subject—whether it is the balkanisation of Britain, our membership of the European Union or the future of the Civil Service—the shorter the time that we are allowed to make speeches. I have only three minutes so I will content myself with saying that I agree with everything that the noble Lord said.

However, I would add one bit of emphasis, which is that I think that the mischief is not so much ministerial choice but having candidates who have come from outwith the Civil Service system. The key point here is that we must maintain not just the non-political nature of the Civil Service but its independence. It is that that I want to talk about in the context of the Civil Service Code.

I received a Written Answer this week from the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire. In my Question, I asked whether the Government,

“intend to ask the head of the Civil Service to report on whether the preparation and publication of Scotland’s Future by Scottish civil servants complied with the Civil Service Code of Conduct”.

The Answer which I received from my noble friend was:

“Questions relating to compliance with the Code of Conduct of the Civil Service in Scotland are dealt with by the Scottish Government in the first instance”.—[Official Report, 13/1/14; col. WA 1.]

However, my complaint was about the Scottish Government. It was raised in debate, and the Minister said it was not a matter for him.

The document I referred to, Scotland’s Future, contains within it one page headed, “Gains from independence—whichever party is elected”, and another headed “Gains from independence—if we are the first government of an independent Scotland”. Included in those “gains” are: the renationalisation of the Royal Mail; the abolition of the bedroom tax; and a reduction in corporation tax. None of those things is within the responsibility of the Scottish Government. This is a manifesto in a document paid for by the taxpayer, written by civil servants and costing £800,000. In common with everybody else in Scotland, I got a leaflet through my letterbox, paid for by the taxpayer, urging me to read the document. There are billboards and advertising hoardings.

We used to have a Civil Service code of conduct which was enforced; it is not being enforced, and it is an absolute dereliction of duty on the part of the head of the Civil Service not to bring this nonsense to an end. It creates a precedent, and the Civil Service operates on precedent. I believe that upholding the Civil Service’s code of conduct is a priority if we are to maintain the integrity of our systems of government. I think that it was a great mistake to separate the roles of head of the Civil Service and the Cabinet Secretary and to diminish both offices in the process. This goes to the heart of what is going on.

When people say that those of us who are concerned about the issues that the noble Lord has raised are out of date and do not really understand how things have changed from Victorian times, Ministers should remember that the monarch acts on their advice and Ministers are advised by civil servants. If we break that link, we will have lost our way and we will slide into chaos and further reinforce the contempt and dismay that we see among the electorate in our country.

12:05

[Lord McNally (LD)]

My Lords, I echo the tribute paid by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, to the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy.

In 2010 I returned to Whitehall as the Minister of State for Justice after a gap of some 31 years, having served as a special adviser to the late Lord Callaghan in the Foreign Office and Number 10 from 1974 to 1979. I am often asked what my impressions were of working again with our Civil Service after that 30-year-plus gap.

I was impressed by the high quality of bright young people who still join our Civil Service motivated by a desire to serve the public good. What is more, in the intervening 30 years, our Civil Service has achieved a diversity in race, gender and social background that, although still a work in progress, outstrips anything seen in the upper reaches of the judiciary, for example. I found a service that, far from being resistant to change, was eager to embrace new methods of working and new technologies.

However, we are moving to a relationship where the public sector acts more and more as a commissioner of services, with the private sector as a supplier. To make that work, we need to equip our Civil Service with the skills for that task. That will mean the Civil Service embracing greater transparency, underpinned by freedom of information. It is increasingly going to need the skill sets to manage contracts with the private sector in a way that gives the taxpayer high performance and value for money. It will need a capacity to procure and manage highly complex information-technology programmes.

We will recruit and retain the civil servants for those tasks only if Ministers are willing to defend public servants from the mythologies, prejudices and dogmas of left and right. One of the great reforms of 19th-century liberalism, as was referred to, was the implementing of the Northcote-Trevelyan reforms that cemented into our governance the concept of a Civil Service that is politically neutral and selected on merit. In the search for efficiency and technical competence, we must not lose either the ethos of public service or the political neutrality and selection on merit that have served us so well in the past and are still qualities to be valued in a Civil Service for the 21st century.

12:08

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, this is a timely debate and I join others in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy. I agree with every word that he said and with every word that the noble Lords, Lord Forsyth and Lord McNally, said, except for one point made by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. I do not believe that selection on merit should be entirely confined to those already within the Civil Service. We need a more open choice than that and this has been done in the past 20 years.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, and the other speakers that something is wrong in the current working of our government, and in particular in the relationship between civil servants and politicians. A symptom of that, in my experience, is an unprecedented spate of recrimination against named civil servants, made worse by the fact that much of it has been through unattributable, backstairs briefings.

Another factor, not referred to by previous speakers, is the alarming turnover in the senior ranks of the Civil Service. Every department but one has had a change of Permanent Secretary since 2010: five have had three Permanent Secretaries in that time; and the Department for Transport had no fewer than four Permanent Secretaries between May 2010 and July 2012, which was when the debacle over the west coast main line took place. Paradoxically, the Government’s proposal for five-year fixed-term contracts for Permanent Secretaries would lengthen their tenure, not shorten it.

I support much of the Government’s programme for reform of the Civil Service. The service needs continually to be trained in the skills that today’s complex world requires, and where such skills are deficient they should be brought in from outside, although experience shows that that is both expensive and not always successful. As the chairman of the Public Accounts Committee in another place has said,

“we have to ensure that people with the right skills are trained up within the Civil Service”.

However, like the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, that is not at the heart of my concern. What worries me is that the “us and them” attitude of some Ministers endangers the relationship of mutual respect and loyalty between politicians and civil servants that has served the country well for 100 years. Before we let that relationship go, we should think very hard about whether there is a better alternative. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, that that is not a matter for just one party or one Government.

I have come to support the recommendation of the Liaison Committee and the Public Administration Select Committee in another place for a parliamentary commission on the Civil Service. It seems extraordinary that the Government should brush aside a recommendation made unanimously by the very senior chairs of all the Select Committees that scrutinise departments.

I am sorry to suggest that the Prime Minister is ignorant of the Standing Orders of Parliament, but the fact is that we would expect a sovereign Parliament to be able to set up such a commission if it wanted to. That, I am advised, is not the case. It cannot do it without the consent of the Government. That may not be right, but it is the present situation and I hope that the Government will think again.

12:12

[Lord Browne of Madingley (CB)]

My Lords, I declare one relevant interest: my position as the Government’s lead independent non-executive board member, a role that provides the context for my brief remarks today.

When the Prime Minister appointed me and 60 other independent non-executive directors, he asked us to make the Government more businesslike and to help equip them with the skills needed to deliver government policy. We have made some progress. The non-executives are providing valuable independent advice and scrutiny and have helped set up the Major Projects Leadership Academy to address one of the critical weaknesses in government. With the support and input of other non-executives, the Government are taking steps to strengthen the functional leadership in the Civil Service, including the appointment of a government head of finance with the equivalent experience of a FTSE-50 finance director.

The institutional and cultural changes driven by non-executives show the great potential for productive co-operation between the public and private sectors, and have played a critical role in equipping the Civil Service for some of the challenges of the 21st century. But there is only so much that independent directors and a reform plan can do: they can make valuable and long-lasting changes within existing structures.

The Civil Service now faces a fundamentally different environment and set of challenges from those for which it perhaps was designed. At some point, incremental reform will no longer be enough. We need to look more fundamentally at how we expect the Civil Service to behave and perform in the 21st century. A comprehensive and independent review of the Civil Service’s structures, processes and lines of accountability is long overdue. So, too, is a thorough review of the roles and responsibilities of Ministers in Parliament when it comes to their relationship with the Civil Service. That review must not distract from the current reform plan. Indeed, it does not need to; it can be part of the plan. It will ensure that we do not to have to do this debate again under the next Administration.

If a review leads to a more flexible, effective and sustainable Civil Service, fit for the modern world, then it would be time well spent. I am sure that noble Lords would agree, though, that if it were just a report for the archive, it would be incredibly damaging.

12:15

[Baroness Bottomley of Nettlestone (Con)]

My Lords, I join those who warmly congratulate the noble Lord on initiating this debate. I am not one who believes in a major commission, except in so far as it would give the noble Lord many opportunities to present evidence which we would all greatly enjoy.

At a time of coalition Government, I do not think that uncharted territory is the time for a fundamental reform. Many of the comments around whether the central role of the Cabinet Secretary as the head of the Civil Service should be split have a lot to do with coalition Government and the fact that we live under severe financial constraint.

I declare my interests as set out in the register, but suffice it to say that, from the experience of running the health service, where we brought in commercial people to help lend their skills to what we were trying to achieve, I have become a very strong believer that there are talented people in the commercial world who have a huge amount to offer government. It is possible to find people who will undertake the work on much reduced income and be committed and add great value to what we are trying to achieve.

My concern is that, even now, the only Permanent Secretary we have who comes from an outside environment is Stephen Lovegrove at DECC, who came from Deutsche Bank to the Shareholder Executive and is now a Permanent Secretary. I do not think that this makes sense. The work that the noble Lord, Lord Browne, has been doing with non-executive advisers on departments—I refuse to call them “directors” because they are not—has shown the calibre of people who are prepared to come to assist in government. I see the noble Lord, Lord Wilson, who I remember said, “We want a permanent Civil Service; we do not want permanent civil servants”. We should question more closely whether there is a resistance in the Civil Service Commission to giving ultimate leadership appointments to individuals who have spent a lot of their life in a different field.

Only today I have published a paper about the leadership of universities. We have Bill Rammell, a former Minister; Martin Bean from Microsoft; Sir David Bell, a former Permanent Secretary; Debbie Swallow from the V&A—they are all now vice-chancellors. It is not that they should necessarily come straight into the top job. When commercial people come in, of course they need to learn and understand the subtlety and values of the Civil Service. It is my sense, however, that we should look carefully at what the resistances are.

The Civil Service was commended by my noble friend Lord McNally for diversity—maybe of gender, orientation, race and ethnicity, but not of occupational background. Every other field of endeavour in this modern, fast-changing world needs different skills, which do not necessarily grow themselves.

There are of course great differences—although I understand the ministerial frustration—but, increasingly, politicians have very little business background. They know about press notices; they do not know about delivery of projects. The implementation of anything means you have to go through winter and spring before you get to the summer of delivery. There are key fundamental principles, and my sense is that both Ministers and civil servants need to look again at this.

Finally, have we looked closely enough at the model of the Greater London Authority and some of the local government models, where service delivery and policy formation is much more closely integrated? Certainly, the much underexamined GLA has in many ways a more interesting balance of people coming through into the executive.

12:19

[Lord Mendelsohn (Lab)]

My Lords, I add my voice to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, on securing this important debate.

In 2005, I was asked to help close down a foundation and ensure that its final sums were spent properly. In agreement with all the trustees, one of the final projects we sponsored was to look at the reform of the Civil Service. We secured the work of the IPPR, and it led to the publication of Whitehall’s Black Box: Accountability and Performance in the Civil Service. During the course of this project, perhaps one of the most disappointing moments was when, during a seminar chaired excellently by the noble Lord, Lord Bichard, there was a strong consensus that progress would not be made because reform lacked political salience, attention and will.

I think there is a great deal of political will and a lot of good ideas. I was encouraged by the commitment made by Francis Maude towards reform, by Sir Bob Kerslake’s work and by the involvement of some excellent private sector leaders, such as Martin Read on IT procurement, but I add my voice to those who say that we should be accelerating the size, scope and pace of change—the excellent work of the noble Lord, Lord Browne—and I strongly support the idea of a commission that has come from the Public Administration Select Committee in the other place.

We have a very talented and able Civil Service, founded on sound principles and ethics. I have always believed that probably the worst sin of the Civil Service has been its recognition of its own quality, making it resistant to change rather than making it the pioneer of adaptability, reform and innovation. That is not to say that it has not done much that is impressive—it is, of course, always exposed to one-way criticism—but we should be willing to support and champion our Civil Service and civil servants to reorganise, change, experiment and, on occasion, fail and be open to learning the lessons of it. In looking at reform, we should be live to the balance between policy and delivery, and perhaps it is not yet in the right place. In the private sector, the focus is clearly on the latter. It does not have to be the best plan, but to succeed it has to be executed well.

The cross-fertilisation of personnel between the private and public sectors should be advanced, and this should include local authorities. One has only to look at the impressive growth and development of Manchester to see what an effective public administration can achieve. Sometimes it is about not the skills you bring in but the structures you bring them into. In this, we have accelerated some of the other changes. Management information is a very important aspect of leadership, and I will be very interested in what the Minister has to say on progress on management information and on whether there are any plans to publish any of that material.

I do not think any institution, like any company, can ever think that there is a time to stop changing or reorganising. I urge the Civil Service to use its undoubted skills and the Government to be much more open to allowing people to debate these issues, and to encourage innovation and change and ensure that effective public policy outcomes with efficiency and cost savings can be achieved. It is time we gave greater scope for everyone to achieve that to unlock the huge potential we have.

12:22

[Lord Wilson of Dinton (CB)]

My Lords, I, too, add my congratulations and thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, who will be sitting submerged in praise by the end of this debate. I agree with what he said and with a lot of the points that have been made by later speakers.

If there is one thing that is certain about the future of the Civil Service, it is that it will always be needed but that different Governments will want different things from it from their predecessors. The Thatcher and Major Governments wanted different things from the Civil Service from the Wilson and Callaghan Governments. When Mr Blair came to power, he inherited a Civil Service that lacked the skills and people that it needed to tackle the large increase in public spending and the issue of delivery. The Civil Service must always retain the capacity to change—to adapt to the needs of the times—while remaining true to itself. To do that, it needs to operate within a sophisticated, complex political deal which everyone subscribes to and understands. It is no secret, as the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, rightly outlined, that there are problems with that deal now. I regret very much to have to say it. It is partly to do with problems of capability—the management of large projects, as the PAC has very roundly illustrated—but also problems with the constitutional framework, the role of Ministers in the appointment of Permanent Secretaries, the large ministerial offices, and the accountability of civil servants and Ministers to Parliament, and the problem of the large number of Permanent Secretaries leaving over the past few years fills me with considerable dismay. It is crucial for the Civil Service, for us, for Parliament and for the public that the service should go on attracting the best people.

I am convinced that the Public Administration Select Committee’s report, which is a devastating critique, is the right way to go: we need a parliamentary commission. I congratulate the committee on what it has produced. I think it will become a classic of its kind. However, it needs to be agreed between the parties. It cannot be done by the Government of the day. The Civil Service is not a subject for unilateral experiment by people in power. It has to be done with cross-party support and analysis, and it needs to be a truthful analysis—good management and good politics do not always coincide. The framework within which the service operates and the standards by which it is judged must take that into account. It needs good Ministers as well as good civil servants. All these things need to be taken together and a current Government, whatever Government, are not in a position to reach those judgments. I support the need for a parliamentary commission but it must respect what is bedrock: the non-political nature of the service and selection on merit. Provided they are secured, there is a great deal of room for original thought. It needs to be done now and the Government are missing a real opportunity if they fail to grasp that, as they seem to do.

12:26

[Lord Jay of Ewelme (CB)]

My Lords, I have spent much of my working life in either the Home Civil Service or the Diplomatic Service, working both in London and abroad. The first, important thing I want to say is that the vast majority of people with whom I have worked over the past 30 or 40 years have been committed, determined, able, politically neutral and very often courageous in ways by which, when I started, I was rather surprised. I shall not forget visiting Baghdad and seeing a dozen government department representatives living and working in a container in an underground car park, being shelled by mortars. That was serving your country at its best and is something we need to recognise more often.

I mention it because, as the noble Lord, Lord Butler, has said, there is a tendency now to attack, blame and denigrate the Civil Service. That is a mistake. One of the things I have learnt in the time I have spent in the private sector since leaving the Civil Service is that if you want to change an organisation, you need the support of those you are trying to change. That needs to be recognised, perhaps more among some Ministers than is now the case.

Of course, the Civil Service needs to change and adapt to ever-demanding tasks. Many of the reforms now under way are necessary, indeed essential—procurement, delivery and focusing on the skills needed for the 21st century, which must include language skills if we are to pay our way in the world. My noble friend Lord Wilson says, “English”, as well and I agree with that, too. The counterpart of this is the need to be able to move on people who are not able, for whatever reason, to deliver what is needed.

There are some reforms now proposed with which I really have difficulty. They have been mentioned by some noble Lords already. I have serious reservations about a substantial increase in the number of special advisers, creating a sort of cabinet for each Minister. When I mentioned to a senior and highly respected French civil servant recently that the Government were thinking of going down that road, he blanched, looked horrified and said, “Do not put a layer of 25 year-old political appointees in between the professional expertise of the Civil Service and its Ministers”. Perhaps that is not what is intended and I hope that, in replying to this debate, the Minister will be able to clarify that point.

I also, like others, worry about the move towards a more political say in the appointment of Permanent Secretaries. If a Permanent Secretary is regarded as the choice of one Government or Minister, he or she will inevitably be regarded with suspicion by the next Minister or Government. The combination of a more politicised group of Permanent Secretaries with larger numbers of political advisers will inevitably erode the principle of neutrality of the Civil Service, which remains an essential and widely respected pillar of our democratic system.

These are extremely important, indeed fundamental, issues for our system of government. For that reason, like others, I very much agree with the case for a parliamentary commission which can look at the role and functions of the Civil Service in the years ahead.

12:30

[Lord Jenkin of Roding (Con)]

My Lords, I join other noble Lords in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, on his splendid speech, with every word of which I agreed. I also thank my right honourable friend Francis Maude for a useful exchange of views which he had with some of us last Monday. I was glad when he told us that he had not ruled out a commission; the idea has had huge support in the House today.

Before coming to my main argument, I will make two points. First, over the Christmas Recess, I read The Blunders of our Governments by Anthony King and Ivor Crewe. The blunders are to be laid almost wholly at the door of Ministers and not civil servants. That should be said, and it is made clear in the book. Secondly, the noble Lord, Lord Jay of Ewelme, referred to the courageous attitude of many civil servants, and I am sure that he is right. However, today, a lot of senior civil servants seem a great deal more reluctant to speak truth unto power, in the sense of warning Ministers frankly that their proposals will not only fail to achieve their objectives but may well prove harmful. I believe that that is a major duty of civil servants and they should not hesitate to exercise it for fear of the impact on their careers. That has been a fear in recent years. Unchallenged “group think” can lead to serious risk of failure.

Finally I come to my main argument, following the points of others about the appointment of Permanent Secretaries. A year ago, I described in the Times how, in 1983, I urged the Cabinet Office to appoint a successor from a different department to follow the retirement of Sir Peter Carey from the Department of Industry. Sir Brian Hayes proved a great success. I did not appoint; I merely urged the Cabinet Office. However, Sir David Normington took issue with me and wrote in the Times the following day:

“The Commission believes that the best way to recruit permanent secretaries continues to be on merit with the final decision taken by an expert panel rather than a single individual”.

Last Monday, as the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, reminded us, the commission published a fresh consultation paper on recruitment principles. I thought from the press reports that it had moved in my direction—but no. While accepting the Government’s proposal that the Prime Minister should make the final choice, the commission is insisting that this should apply only,

“where there were two candidates of equivalent merit”.

I find this a very difficult concept. Yes, the relevant Secretary of State should be consulted, but I do not think that the restriction of the “equal merit” point is acceptable, and I hope that the Government will reject it.

12:33

[Lord Ramsbotham (CB)]

My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend Lord Hennessy, not just for our having this debate but for the masterly way in which he introduced it. I admit that I am slightly fuelled by nostalgia in contributing because I had the great fortune to first serve in Whitehall in the 1970s, when the Ministry of Defence was fortunate in having some real giants of the Civil Service in its midst. I learnt very quickly the absolutely priceless value of having an independent, honest, impartial, objective civil servant. The integrity of those people was absolutely incredible.

It struck me then that of course you cannot conduct government, and you certainly cannot have continuity, consistency and stability, without that sort of bedrock. One thing was clear: there was locked up among them an institutional memory which meant that, when issues were raised, they could say not just, “It won’t work”, but, “The last time, or on previous occasions, this and that didn’t happen”. When I look around, I have to admit that, although I fully acknowledge the calibre and quality of those in the Civil Service, I regret that some of that institutional memory is being dissipated by the way in which people are being moved around.

All my foxes having been shot—I am not surprised by this—I absolutely agree with a commission; but I would like to focus on what my noble friend Lord Butler said about the importance of the relationship between Ministers and civil servants. It seems to me that there are two crucial words that are slightly old-fashioned and in danger of being lost in that relationship. One is “leadership”, and we should remember that leadership has to be given both to them and by them—by Ministers and by the Permanent Secretary. The other is “loyalty”. Loyalty is absolutely crucial, and loyalty in the Civil Service will not follow unless civil servants feel that Ministers are being loyal to them. That is hugely important.

If I have one final, lingering regret, it is that the wonderful series on television that we all enjoyed, “Yes Minister”, was not called “No Minister”; because I suspect that if more civil servants had said no to their Ministers, we would not have been plagued by some of the legislation with which we have been swamped in recent days.

12:39

[Lord Birt (CB)]

My Lords, I worked intensively with the Civil Service for six years when I was in government, and with officials at all levels, generally on major, long-running projects. It was for me a most happy experience. These were people of exceptional talent, of real commitment, and of absolute integrity.

In the higher reaches of the Civil Service, well-represented here today, the sense of wisdom, experience and steeliness is tangible. They and their ancestors have been to war, literally and metaphorically, and it shows. But with the scope and extent of the modern state, the Civil Service today faces challenges of unprecedented scale and complexity; and though it has adapted, I do not think it has yet fully adapted to meet those modern challenges.

The skills found in the best-run private sector corporations are insufficiently developed still in Whitehall: for example, a forensic understanding of the total environment in which public institutions are operating; or the ability to analyse closely where in a system economic value is being created or destroyed; or the capacity to deliver, as many have mentioned, large-scale projects with multiple partners. There is a lack of clarity about governance and accountability. Where does the buck stop on long-term projects which may span the terms of office of many Ministers and officials? How can Ministers deal with under-performing or insufficiently skilled officials? How can officials be protected from inexperienced Ministers who make unmeetable demands, which they do in all Governments?

I do think it is an appropriate time to review how we can build a Civil Service fit for modern times; how we can radically improve accountability and responsibility for delivery; how we can create mechanisms which protect the impartiality, the independence and the long-term stewardship of the Civil Service, yet give Ministers the confidence that they have the tools to do their jobs. I do not doubt that we have the best Civil Service in the world. Let us make it better still.

12:39

[Lord Smith of Clifton (LD)]

My Lords, in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, for introducing the debate, I agree with him that we have to go back to the Fulton report, to which I submitted evidence all those years ago. However, the problem with that report was that it unleashed an often mindless pursuit of managerialism into government. The pursuit of this doctrine led to wholesale privatisation, hollowing out of Whitehall, outsourcing of a multitude of government functions, excessive reliance on management consultants, an army of regulators and the introduction of GOATs into this House, all in the belief that private sector practices were always good and public sector practices invariably bad. The axiom has been the unchallenged operating principle in the conduct of government for more than the near half century since the Fulton report, and has been fully articulated here today. It has created institutional anarchy and shown no regard whatever for constitutionalism, which is the bedrock of democracy.

Somehow this anarchic system has had to be serviced. This has been done by a burgeoning “nomenklatura”. Distinctions are now so blurred that it is not easy to tell if its members come from pressure groups, spads, management consultants, regulators, quangos, the residual Civil Service or elsewhere. They constitute a new breed of “fixer” and are a far cry from that earlier generation which spawned Oliver Franks, Arnold Goodman and their like. The new breed does not know very much about anything but it knows its way around and that, apparently, is enough.

Ministers seem to have a flickering of the problem when they call for joined-up government. However, this will remain a chimera unless the necessary prerequisite is fulfilled—that is, joined-up thinking—and there is no sign of that. Writing a definitive textbook on modern British government is a near impossibility these days that would severely tax the powers of the noble Lords, Lords Hennessy and Lord Norton. As Bernard Jenkin from PASC and the FDA have recommended, and as many noble Lords have endorsed today, there is now an urgent need for a comprehensive strategic review of the role and functioning of the non-elected part of our Executive. We need to redefine the constitution and not live with the present fudge if the increasing encroachments of corporate power in dictating the public agenda are to be resisted. Along with others, I ask the Minister in winding to say why Her Majesty’s Government have rejected the PASC’s recommendation for a review.

12:42

[Lord Turnbull (CB)]

My Lords, is the criticism of the Civil Service coming from Ministers, Parliament and think tanks justified? Of course, the Civil Service can, and should, raise its performance, but the big picture is that since 1997 it has contracted by 13% and expects to be 20% smaller by 2015. It is handling a rising caseload with less money so its productivity has been significantly increased and many services have been improved by digital delivery. Other countries see the UK as a source of good practice.

Contrast that with the incontinence of the political payroll, with Ministers up by 8% since 1997, despite the savings which devolution should have produced. Spad numbers are up from 38 in 1997 to 98 now, most of whom are political interns and not deep experts. Unlike politicians whose reputation has been damaged by expenses fiddling and influence peddling, the Civil Service has maintained its reputation for integrity, according to the annual MORI survey on trust.

Do civil servants obstruct Ministers, as some have claimed? That is the cry-baby response of the weak Minister. Strong Ministers get what they want. As others have pointed out, the Civil Service has failed more often in the opposite direction—that is, in agreeing with Ministers’ proposals when it should have questioned them: for example, on the poll tax, the new style rail franchises and the overambitious timetable for universal credit.

On accountability, the Institute for Government got it right when it said that,

“secretaries of state and permanent secretaries have shared accountabilities and responsibilities … Trying to separate them is an illusion”.

It also said that the relationship is,

“impossible to express in contractual terms”.

As Tam Dalyell said of the West Lothian question, the only answer is not to ask it. The argument on accountability is more with Parliament, which wants greater scope to criticise individual officials without giving them any greater right of reply. We should concentrate on those things that bring Ministers and officials closer together and not on things like contracts, extended ministerial offices or more ministerial appointments which drive them apart.

Should Ministers choose their Permanent Secretaries? The answer is definitely not. That should be exclusively for the Prime Minister, who, after consulting the Minister, appoints someone from a list of those deemed genuinely appointable. Is a parliamentary commission likely to help? Despite being a member of a successful commission on banking, I am probably in a minority in being rather doubtful about whether that would add much to performance. More importantly, should a review be carried out by Parliament? In my view, the answer is no, as Parliament is an insider in this argument with a vested interest. A review should be independent.

What are the real priorities for improvement? My answer is professional skills throughout the service, not just for those who work closely with Ministers, in four areas: project management; contract management so that the Government are not fleeced by contractors; digital delivery; and financial management. All four areas have been identified and are being addressed.

12:45

[Lord Armstrong of Ilminster (CB)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Hennessy of Nympsfield has been taking a keen interest in the Civil Service, its activities and personnel, for nearly 50 years. That interest has become steadily more benign and supportive over the years. We all mellow with age. At least we can be grateful to him for raising the subject and giving us an opportunity to debate it. With time being very short, I shall confine myself to the main point that I wish to make, although I would have liked to comment on many other matters.

Clearly, the Civil Service has to be nimble and versatile enough to keep pace with the implications of the social and technological changes and challenges that occur and will continue to occur. Its role has always been, and will continue to be, not so much to advise about what policies should be pursued—that is a matter for political and ministerial judgment and decision—as to advise on how the policies chosen by Ministers can be put optimally into effect, and then to put them into effect.

Civil servants are expected to discharge their duties with honesty, integrity, impartiality and objectivity. These have been the guiding values of the Civil Service, as my noble friend Lord Hennessy reminded us, for a century and a half. In 2010, they were given statutory expression and force. Like motherhood and apple pie, no one seriously contests them. However, we seem to feel a need constantly to parade and reassert them, and to write statutes, codes and regulations to try to ensure that they continue to be applied in every aspect of management. That seems to reflect a lack of confidence in their being properly observed.

The development of elaborate statements of principle, codes and regulations makes me uneasy. There have to be arrangements for disciplining those who transgress, but I should prefer a world in which, as a general rule, the civil servant is the guardian of his own integrity and relies on his own professional conscience and sense of values. It is better that a civil servant should say to himself, “Ought I to be doing this?”, or, “Ought I to be doing this in this way?”, than that he should say to himself, “Can I fit this within the rules and regulations”—or, worse still, “Can I stretch the rules and regulations to cover what I propose to do?”. He really should be thinking about the issues for himself.

In the end, this is a matter, as noble Lords have already said, of mutual respect and trust between Ministers and civil servants. I have had the privilege of knowing from experience that that relationship can be established and that, given goodwill on both sides, there can be a clear understanding of each other’s roles and responsibilities, and a recognition that they are there to work together in the public interest and not against each other.

The Civil Service needs to be able constantly to adapt to the challenges of changing economic, social and technological conditions. However, the future of the Civil Service would not be best served by a further proliferation of orders and regulations, or a proliferation of expert advisers in extended ministerial offices—which, I fear, would become a device to enable Ministers who are politically unsure of themselves to surround themselves with politically congenial cronies, paid for by the taxpayer, and distance themselves from departmental realities and their departmental advisers.

The prime requirement for a good future for the Civil Service and, indeed, for the good governance of this country is the maintenance of its traditional values in deed as well as in word, and the establishment of mutual respect and trust, based on good will and a clear understanding and acceptance on the part of both Ministers and civil servants of their respective roles and responsibilities.

12:51

[Lord Waldegrave of North Hill (Con)]

My Lords, it seems to me that there are two separate issues here. First, there is the constant process of change and modernisation that the Civil Service, like any other organisation, needs. Some of the things that the Government are proposing seem to be sensible—on project management and IT, for example. They get some of them wrong: it was a grave mistake to separate the Cabinet Secretary from the Head of the Civil Service. I know that in the past there were different ways of doing this, but by far the best is if the most powerful adviser to the Prime Minister is also the man who understands appointments and promotions within the service. The abolition of the Sunningdale college, without its replacement, yet, by anything adequate, is also a mistake.

However, these are ordinary things that go on. Government Ministers and heads of the Civil Service get some of them right and some of them wrong. I am nervous of the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, for a second Fulton report for the following reason. The noble Lord listed a tremendous number of things that such a commission should look at, taking account of everything, including the defence posture of the country for the next 20 years. I speak with a little nervousness in the presence of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scott, but that report would perhaps take a great deal of time, whoever chaired the inquiry. During that time, it might realistically put a damper on the necessary process of modernisation that goes on all the time.

I put it to the noble Lord that something more urgent needs to be done. Are things being done and thought about that run into our fundamental, unwritten constitutional principles, which we are calling today, in shorthand form, Northcote-Trevelyan and Haldane? It is good shorthand and represents promotion by merit, independence from political influence, and the accountability of departments resting with Ministers. I am anxious that things are being proposed that threaten those fundamental principles.

I have a grave doubt about the EMOs—not so much about the way in which the conflict between Normington, the Civil Service Commission and the Government is going, although the commission has got itself into an odd position there, as my noble friend Lord Jenkin of Roding, said. Sir Peter Kemp went to his grave saying that I had sacked him. I had not sacked him, but I had a consultation with the noble Lord, Lord Butler, and we agreed that Sir Peter was not the man to be in charge of that particular department at that particular time. It is possible for these things to be done properly if you have the right structures. However, if we get into a situation in which there is a conflict between a commission that is becoming rule-bound and Ministers who—particularly if the commission is headed by distinguished former civil servants—see it as something of an insiders’ club, we are in difficulty.

We therefore need to look quickly, not at a parliamentary commission—here, I am with the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull—but at an independent commission in which there might be distinguished lawyers, and others, to look at whether our defences against the attacks on the two fundamental principles are real. We are running into danger, and I want a quick six-month or year-long inquiry into whether in the modern world we have enough defences for those fundamental pillars—after all, the Civil Service Commission is charged with looking not at Haldane but only at Northcote-Trevelyan. That inquiry might lead to recommendations for a new kind of Civil Service commission, which may well be necessary. We need to move more quickly; the situation is more urgent than the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, argued—mellowed though he is.

12:55

[Lord Fellowes (CB)]

My Lords, I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, has instigated this debate, not least because it gives me an opportunity to discharge a duty that has been long outstanding. That duty is to express my gratitude and admiration for the quantity and quality of advice and help given to me and the institution for which I worked for 22 years. I was lucky enough to have a job that required daily communication with the Civil Service and also, of course, with the Diplomatic Service at various levels. I was then, and remain, a staunch admirer of these public servants, from the mandarins at the top—by whom I am surrounded today—right through the ranks. The patience and friendliness with which advice and help were always given were matched only by its quality. To put it bluntly, I could not have done my job without it. I soon realised that the caricature of the civil servant—portrayed sometimes benevolently and at other times more harshly—was hideously inaccurate, and that I was lucky indeed to have been able to draw on such an extraordinary resource.

This debate, however, is about the future of the Civil Service, not its past—and still less about my past. Most Governments seem to arrive in office with the avowed intent of not being “in thrall to their civil servants”. After an initial stand-off, they usually work their way through this phase and arrive at a satisfactory relationship, making the most—rather than the least—of those whose job it is to help them. Just now, however, it seems that this relationship is about to undergo a period of fierce pressure, with an onrushing tide of reforms and an increasing prevalence of special advisers separately and together challenging the traditional role of the Civil Service. To my mind, it is undesirable for the engineers of change or their special advisers to become the creators of policy rather than the sources of specialist advice—the role for which their jobs were created.

My devout hope for the future of the Civil Service is that it retains its position as the hub around which the wheel of government turns, and not just an adjunct to be used or blamed at the last resort. I know it has not quite come to that yet, but I believe we should guard very carefully against it. A review along the lines outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Waldegrave, or a parliamentary commission, would be good ways of mounting this guard.

12:57

[Lord Luce (CB)]

My Lords, unlike my colleagues, I am wedged here between distinguished civil servants, but I speak as a former Minister of State for the Civil Service. I strongly support everything that the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, has said. The difference between now and the 1980s, of course, is that there is a breakdown in trust between Ministers and the Civil Service, which is at a serious level. However, we ought to acknowledge at the same time that there has been a considerable change in circumstances facing Governments of the day. The circumstances are more complex: we have a coalition Government; the technology has transformed the scene; and the media demand a 24-hour service.

To my mind, there are two key points. It is essential to preserve, on the one hand, the ethos and the values of the Civil Service, as outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy. Secondly, it is important always to ensure that there is ongoing, incremental improvement in the effectiveness of the Civil Service. That is what the Government are now effectively trying to do in things such as delivery and improving the skills and the quality of advice that the service gives. At the end of the day, we must do nothing to undermine the values of the service.

Then there is the question of accountability. At the end of the day, the buck stops with the Minister, who is accountable to Parliament. It is perfectly sane and sensible in today’s rather complex age of government to expect that the roles of civil servants should be clarified and that systems of accountability should be there. At the end of the day, however, it is Ministers who carry the can: I say with some feeling that there are times when they even have to resign.

Secondly, we should not politicise or personalise the appointments of Permanent Secretaries. The job of the civil servant is to give fearless, objective advice to Ministers. They must have no fear of losing their job because they are doing their job properly. A good Minister will want to hear all the arguments before taking a decision; otherwise the Minister is in danger of taking the wrong decision. Therefore, I am totally opposed to any weakening of the present position where the Secretary of State cannot appoint the Permanent Secretary.

Lastly, I am extremely suspicious about the extended ministerial office. There must be no conflict of loyalties. There must be no cocooning of a Minister within his little bureaucracy. There must be no proliferation of political advisers. There are plenty of junior Ministers in this present Government to give political advice.

I support my colleagues who believe that there ought to be an all-party-supported independent or parliamentary inquiry that reaches its conclusions before the next general election. The country needs a strong and stable Civil Service.

13:01

[Lord Norton of Louth (Con)]

My Lords, I, too, am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, has secured this important and timely debate. In the time available, I want to make two points. First, I very much endorse the recommendation of the Public Administration Select Committee for a commission on the Civil Service. That case is well made in its report. The Government’s Civil Service Reform Plan focuses on making the Civil Service more effective both in service delivery and in offering policy advice. As I said in evidence to the Public Administration Committee, it takes a narrow and one-dimensional view of the relationship between Ministers and civil servants.

Ministers depend on good civil servants. Conversely, civil servants rely on good Ministers, and Parliament relies on Ministers and officials who understand their responsibilities to Parliament. The system relies on an understanding of these relationships, but the basis on which this rests is being eroded. It is being eroded as a consequence of the turnover in senior civil servants and the lack of turnover in the party in government. Some politicians have become senior Ministers with no prior experience of government. Turnover in the senior Civil Service takes out the administrative experience and specialisation that offsets the fact that both civil servants and Ministers are generalists.

This makes the case for a major review and one that puts the Civil Service within the context of our system of government and not simply as some discrete managerial entity. Ministers see civil servants as part of the problem without acknowledging that they too are part of the problem. For that reason, the decision on how to address the problem should not be left to government.

That brings me to my second point. The Government have rejected the proposal for a commission. That, combined with my preceding point, means that it is up to Parliament to take ownership of the process. I disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, and my noble friend Lord Waldegrave: on practical grounds we will not get an independent commission. If the Government decline to support a Joint Committee, it is up to this House to establish an ad hoc committee on the Civil Service. In response to my noble friend Lord Waldegrave, that would time limit the actual inquiry.

We are not short of expertise, as is so clearly demonstrated by this debate. My comments today are thus not addressed to the Minister but to the House. In my view, we should grasp the opportunity.

13:03

[Baroness Donaghy (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, for introducing this debate and echo the concerns of others that the ingredients for improving efficiency and effectiveness in the Civil Service are not even provided at present. I was a member and former acting chair of the Committee on Standards in Public Life. We did a considerable amount of work on the role of the Civil Service and the importance of its independence. I wish that I had more time to say more about that.

Secondly, as chair of ACAS, I was responsible for promoting good employment relations. Had I been approached about whether a 30% reduction in the number of senior civil servants would improve employment relations and increase effectiveness, I would have been delighted to give my view.

It is extremely important to be aware of the distinction between good employment relations and Civil Service independence, and not confuse the two. When I arrived at ACAS—and its staff were Civil Service-related—it was clear that there was a need for a major reorganisation to recognise the changes in the world of work. This was a big project that involved the staff and was achieved with consent. It took time. If you are going to get the best out of staff, you need to inspire and motivate. Even within the term of one government, there can be between two and eight changes of Minister and junior Minister, all with different priorities. A new Minister comes in and says, “Why are we wasting taxpayers’ money on this?”. The Civil Service has to be able to show the origin of the project, usually the Minister's own predecessor, so accountability is extremely important.

Ministers with perhaps only one or two years of office before them naturally want to get things done. If they see Civil Service caution as an obstacle, they are tempted to be surrounded by their own creatures. Of course, there are Ministers with experience who have been managers. Too often, however, our leaders come from a much narrower background and have absolutely no experience of management or transparent appointment procedures. To extend political appointments will only make a bad situation worse. I only hope that there will be a code of conduct to ensure transparency of appointment and pay. If the limit for Civil Service commissioners’ approval remains as high as £84,000, it will miss the point. Some of these prime ministerial wannabes will do it for nothing and will come from a background where they can afford to. While I accept that project management in government does not have a great record, let us be clear: it can happen even when a non-civil servant is drafted in from top business. The MoD might well be a good example.

Finally, enshrining Civil Service objectivity in law was a good thing and I acknowledge the Government’s achievement in that. But it is in danger of being a totem when huge staff cuts and the growth of political cronyism are the reality.

13:06

[Lord O'Donnell (CB)]

My Lords, I should like to add my thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, as the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, said, in his long journey from the dark side. I also thank both Houses of Parliament for passing the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act, which, I have to say, civil servants advised Ministers to do about 150 years before they finally did it. Pace is something we need to think about.

If we are thinking about the pace of change, we should think about what has happened in the past three years. The Civil Service has downsized by about 75,000. It has managed an effective coalition Government, which has not been done before. It has had to deal with cuts in real pay, pensions, redundancy terms and promotion prospects. Yet throughout all of that, morale has gone up. Engagement scores for the Civil Service show an increase of two percentage points. Trust levels, as the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, said, have gone up by six percentage points at a time when, as we know, trust in the political system is not exactly strong. I put it to the House that if the Civil Service were a private sector company, the Harvard Business Schools of this world would be doing case studies on it, and we should applaud that success.

However, let us not hark on the past but talk about the future. What are the challenges for the future? We are in a period of austerity until 2015 and beyond, or is it infinity and beyond—who knows? Can we carry on? Yes, we have skills shortages in the Civil Service in areas such as commissioning, financial management and project management. I commend the noble Lord, Lord Browne, for the work that he has been doing on some of these areas. The innovation, of which we need more in the role of non-executive directors, has been fantastic. They have been incredibly helpful in departments and in bringing home to civil servants and Ministers the business skills that we need to deliver these big projects. That is very good.

However, we also need a broader set of skills if we are to look at the reforms for the challenges of government—and I stress government—for the next few years. It is going to be all about things such as behavioural public policy and sorting out how we measure success. In health, we have quality-adjusted life years. For the whole of government, we will need well-being years. Those are things to come. We need a broader range of skills, including those of psychologists and multidisciplinary people. We need more risk-taking, as I have said. If we are to get risk-taking right, we will have to stop the emphasis on ex-post Spanish Inquisitions and do a lot more on ex-ante appraisal of projects before they come to us. Parliament should be demanding more information. We should have something like an office of taxpayer responsibility which, building on the OBR, would look at these projects and give you evidence to show what the risks are. Where is the evidence base? Too often we have what I call the Bachelors’ approach to policy. Do noble Lords remember that Bachelors’ hit “I Believe”? Ministers come in with very strong beliefs and you say, “Very good, Minister, let’s test them. Let’s have a bit of evidence. Let’s have a randomised control trial”. They say, “No, too slow”. We need all of that.

Finally, I strongly support more experts. Of the top 200, 41% were externally recruited in the first place. They should not be experts in telling the Minister who appointed them how brilliant the Minister’s ideas are. They should be genuine experts, based on meritocratic principles. If we think about the future of government, we should analyse government. You cannot just analyse the Civil Service. If you are going to have a commission, make it on government and about Ministers and Civil Service together. It would be a nonsense to do one half of the horse.

13:11

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

My Lords, I am uneasy about extended ministerial offices. There is a risk that we get the worst of all possible worlds. In America, we see the dangers of hiatuses on a change of Government. In France, the danger is that the cabinet system means that policy-making is separated from the expertise of the department as a whole. I am uneasy about surrounding the Minister with more people whose tenure is dependent on the king’s smile. We do not need more courtiers. If the Minister wants sycophants, he gets special advisers: we have plenty of them already. As has been said, in his policy-making meetings he should want honesty. He should want people who know what they are talking about. The turnover numbers in the Civil Service are very scary now. The expertise may not be as great as it should be. I am struck by the fact that the Treasury wastage rate was 28% in 2010 and 22% in 2011: 50% over the two years of a great financial crisis. That cannot be right. It suggests that something is wrong.

On the issue of the apolitical Civil Service, I am struck by the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. It is astonishing if the head of the Civil Service is not taking up with his counterpart in Edinburgh a clear misuse of government money and time in producing a political manifesto. I am uneasy about the exclusion of civil servants from policy-making if one goes down the EMO route. The Minister who does not want his policy subjected to the most rigorous internal dialectic should not be in office. The artificial distinction that is drawn between policy-making and delivery is a false dichotomy. There is no such thing as a good policy that cannot be well delivered. That is a bad policy. You need to have, in the room, as you decide, the people who will be responsible for delivery. Even if you have, in your head, already decided what the policy will be, it is crucial that you pretend to take account of the arguments being advanced. You listen to their talk of pitfalls and precedents and things that could go wrong, and you make them feel that they were present at the creation. It is really important to loyalty that people feel they were present at the creation.

There is something wrong. We have not yet lost the apolitical, independent, expert public service but it is in danger. I do not know what the correct form of inquiry is. I rather go with the noble Lord, Lord Waldegrave, on speed, but something should be done. Some kind of inquiry is needed to make sure we do not lose what is the envy of the French and Americans by going down their route.

13:14

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, for 50 years I have been observing, commenting on and, at one point, participating in the Civil Service; as a party functionaire, as a special adviser in Whitehall when those were rare beasts, and as a journalist. For some months, at the Economist, I shared a room with the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy—we had a lot of fun—and his arrival has been a great asset to this House.

I have observed, with dismay, a real deterioration during recent decades in the performance and capability of the Civil Service and, indeed, in the quality of some of those who occupy key posts in it. To take just one symptom, the quality and preparation of legislation has been getting worse and worse. We have observed this in our own role here. This is sometimes compounded by the determination of civil servants to stick to what they have produced, casting around for ingenious and often spurious arguments to sustain it. This can be compounded by Ministers if they are prepared to act as parrots for the Whitehall view. I would support the idea of a fundamental look at the Civil Service, but on the one condition that it does not delay the changes that can be made and are so urgently needed now.

The whole idea of Northcote-Trevelyan and the subsequent reforms was to move away from patronage to ensure tough, competitive entry so that the Civil Service recruited the brightest and the best and became a meritocratic elite. Its performance must be held to account with rigour by Parliament; this is where I welcome the growing effectiveness of Select Committees. The problem is the attempt to move away from the simple criterion of excellence in recruitment and promotion towards diversity, the aim of which is to make the Civil Service reflect more closely the profile of Britain. The flaw in this is that the role of the Civil Service is too important to be used in some form of politically correct modern patronage dressed up as social engineering.

Better is needed at the bottom and the top of the ladder. At the bottom, private offices—traditionally a crucial staging post on the route to the top—are there to help serving Ministers get things done. In 2011 I asked, in a PQ, what steps HMG were taking to ensure that the staffing of private offices reflected the full diversity of the UK. In reply, I got a whole column of Hansard, proudly announcing such absurdities as roadshows. Private offices are now falling down on the job. Permanent Secretaries have always been key at the top. As the noble Lord, Lord Butler, said, there is now far too much rotation. For example, the deputy secretary at the Home Office responsible for immigration policy, so rightly denounced as not fit for purpose, was promoted to PUS in the Ministry of Defence. His performance was a disaster and his successor lasted only a few months. Where are the giants of the past? Where are the Sir Frank Coopers and the Sir Michael Quinlans?

Britain needs and deserves the best in the Civil Service. I am in favour of an independent elite. Let us recruit it.

13:18

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab)]

My Lords, when the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, joined the House I anticipated some outstanding contributions. That anticipation was fully realised today with his excellent introduction to this debate.

When I started my ministerial career in 1999 as Minister for Finance in Scotland, I was responsible for Civil Service issues and relationships between the new Scottish Government and the UK Government, particularly with the secretary for the Cabinet Office. At that time, we established a number of memoranda to try and ensure a decent and efficient operation between the two levels of government—a point that I will return to.

However, let me start by saying that, of all the contributions made so far by noble Lords, I agreed most with that of the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong. It seems to me that at the heart of the current problem is a lack of ministerial responsibility and acceptance by Ministers of that responsibility in their dealings with the Civil Service and agencies under their remits. The creeping way in which that has come into government under all parties over recent years is at the heart of the current problem, which is about the independence of the Civil Service, the accountability of Ministers and their taking responsibility for mistakes and decisions.

Without a strong and independent Civil Service, and without Ministers who are willing to listen and to change when change is necessary, our system of government makes mistakes and fails. When Ministers are strong and issue clear directions, civil servants know where they stand and are perfectly capable of carrying out the instructions and policies. That was certainly my experience in government, and I think it should be at the core of where we move to in the future.

The other important point that I want to make is that, in the Government’s document on Civil Service reform published in 2012, there is almost no mention whatever of the relationship between central government and the devolved Governments in the skilling and development of the Civil Service and the spreading of knowledge within the service across the different levels of government.

The level of interchange between devolved government civil servants and central government civil servants in this country has almost ground to a halt. That is to the detriment of the devolved Governments, because the civil servants who work in the devolved Administrations no longer have experience of working in the Treasury, at UKRep—rather than the Scottish Government’s office in Brussels—or in a whole range of other central government offices where they can work with people from other departments. Civil servants working in UK government departments no longer have any knowledge of the education service in Scotland or the health service in Wales or, indeed, all those other departments that are now the sole and autonomous responsibility of the devolved Governments.

It seems to me that the issue of interchange between civil servants working in the devolved Governments and civil servants working at the centre needs to be tackled. It has been ignored through an abdication of responsibility by successive Secretaries of State for the Cabinet Office and by Ministers in the devolved Administrations over the past decade or so. It is time that that was tackled, and tackled strongly.

13:21

[Lord Nickson (CB)]

My Lords, I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, who has been praised almost universally by speakers in this debate, is keeping a tick list, but I should think that the score is around 25 to one. The only difference is on the urgency for a commission.

My mind is taken back to the first time that I was exposed to what might be the collective noun for Permanent Secretaries—I do not know whether it is a perfection or a permanence—at the spring conference in Sunningdale in 1987. The noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, will remember it because he presided over it just before he handed over to the noble Lord, Lord Butler, and it was just before the election. Every Permanent Secretary there had written his briefs for the right-hand drawer and the left-hand drawer and was in an enormously relaxed mood. We had a debate about the future Government and the role of the Civil Service, and there was a wonderful feeling of confidence and so on.

I suppose I had around 20 years of working with civil servants at senior levels or, in some cases, in quangos having civil servants working for me. I developed enormous respect and admiration for the skills, intellect and dedication of those civil servants. When I was asked to become the chairman of what is now the Senior Salaries Review Body, Lord Plowden, who was my predecessor, said to me, “My boy,”—because I was so much younger than him—“you must realise that this is the ultimate poison pill”. I was slightly comforted because earlier I had taken on another job in the private sector, but I went to a friend to ask his advice. He said, “If you take that job on, you must be even stupider or very much braver than I know you to be”. Anyway, I survived and I am very lucky to be standing here today.

I agree entirely with what so many speakers have said. What we have had in the Civil Service is what I would call the “four I’s”—independence, integrity, impartiality and I have forgotten the last one but it is in much the same vein. I also agree with what was said by the noble Lords, Lord Jenkin of Roding and Lord Luce, that in the service provided by Permanent Secretaries and senior civil servants there has to be courage and a certain robustness in order to be prepared to challenge Ministers on their chosen policies along with an ability to convert those policies into legislation and systems that work. So I am entirely in favour of what the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, has said. The values were referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Wilson of Dinton, as the bedrock. I would describe them as the gold standard of values: a public service ethic and the wish to do good for the country, along with a desire for fairness. These values have, I think, been eroded.

I will finish by referring to one more point. Sir Hayden Phillips wrote an article about the Civil Service for the Times in which he used the term “shared enterprise” in the partnership between Ministers and their Permanent Secretaries. I think that that has been eroded. All I know is that in the private sector, unless there is confidence between the non-executive chairman and the chief executive and there is a working relationship, the right answers will not be produced. That is what is lacking, and I support the fact that there needs to be a major look at the Civil Service.

13:25

[Baroness Prashar (CB)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, for securing this debate, and I agree with most of what he said. As the custodians of Civil Service values, the Civil Service Commissioners operate where operational issues and propriety issues interact. My experience as the First Civil Service Commissioner from 2000 to 2005 convinced me that any reform of the Civil Service must be tested against the principles, values and conventions which have guided the Civil Service for several decades.

Radical reform of the Civil Service started in the 1980s, but it has been piecemeal and predominantly managerial. In the 1980s and 1990s, fears arose that those piecemeal reforms might undermine or erode the values of the Civil Service and weaken the conventions which act as checks and balances within our unwritten constitution. Publication of the Civil Service Code in 1995 and putting the Civil Service Commission on to a statutory footing in 2010 were testaments to that fear.

The current proposals with regard to the relationship between Ministers and top civil servants, ministerial involvement in senior appointments and extended ministerial offices have aroused similar fears. That is because, in my view, these proposals underplay the significant functions carried out by the Civil Service within our constitutional arrangements—functions such as helping to ensure that the Government of the day act with propriety, supporting Ministers in the management of decision-making and providing objective advice; that is, speaking truth unto power.

In recent years we have seen many of the consequences that have resulted from defective decision-making, partly due to a lack of capability in the Civil Service, which of course needs to be addressed, but also due in part to the weak application of these principles. In December 2013 Sir Alan Beith, the chairman of the Liaison Committee in the other place, said:

“In our report, we identified examples where we felt that things had gone wrong because Ministers were told what they wanted to hear”.—[Official Report, Commons, 12/12/13; col. 372.]

But this issue is not new. In 2003, the former Prime Minister the right honourable John Major said that many Ministers behaved as if officials should be committed extensions of the Government’s electoral platform and that they openly blamed civil servants for errors that in the past had been accepted as the responsibility of Ministers.

It is also worrying that the IPPR report, Accountability and Responsiveness in the Civil Service, which was commissioned by the right honourable Francis Maude MP, sees “tension” between “responsiveness” and “independence”, and does not appreciate the distinction between independence and impartiality.

I believe that the time is right for a comprehensive and strategic review of the nature, role and purpose of the Civil Service, as recommended by the Public Administration Select Committee. Any commission that is set up should look not just at the Civil Service but at the role of Ministers as well. As the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, said, the Civil Service is a national asset and is not owned by the Government of the day but held in trust for the next Administration. I urge the Government to change their mind and set up an independent commission for the sake of the future of the Civil Service and for the health of our democracy.

13:29

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I echo the last words of the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, who has just addressed us. I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, feels that he has been present at the creation, but he has certainly been present at a very splendid debate, marred only by the time constraints under which we all have to speak. I warmly congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, on the splendid and spirited way in which he introduced the debate. All those who have spoken with vast experience of the higher reaches of the Civil Service demonstrate the value of this House, because they are all wonderful examples of good parliamentarians, even if they are not politicians.

The one thing that troubles me about the Civil Service is its increased politicisation. I believe that that is due, mainly, to the enormous growth in the number of so-called special advisers. When I first became a Member of Parliament in 1970, I had the good fortune to be asked in the July of that year to become a Parliamentary Private Secretary in the Department of Health and Social Security. It was one department covering all those areas, with only four Ministers: a Secretary of State, a Minister of State in this House and two Under-Secretaries. I saw at first hand how the effective working—and it was an effective working—of a splendid department, under Sir Keith Joseph, depended so much on the trust that existed between the civil servants and the Ministers. Trust is the essential hallmark of a good Civil Service and a good Civil Service is the bulwark of a true, free democracy.

We talk a lot in this place about free speech, a free Parliament, and we are right to do so. However, at the base of it all, if we are to have a properly functioning democracy, we need those who are imbued by an ideal of public service, who are themselves following a vocation to public service and who are bringing their integrity and their ability to making sure that our country works properly. What has happened over recent years was illustrated for me in 1995, when I called on a colleague who was a Secretary of State to discuss some matters. I was met by a young man who was excessively polite and extremely welcoming. The Secretary of State came in and said “Have you been talking to …” and mentioned his name. I said yes and asked him, “What exactly is his job?”. “Oh, he’s my special adviser”. I said “Oh yes, how old is he?”. “He is 23”. I said “What on earth can he specially advise you on?”. “Oh, he does the party stuff”.

The party stuff may be important, but it should never get in the way of the proper stuff. Over the past 30 years, there has been such an increase in the number of special advisers that it really has got in the way of the proper stuff. I have seen a breakdown of trust and confidence between Ministers and those who serve them because of that.

The time constraint means that I cannot go on longer, I wish I could. But I end as I began by echoing the need for either a parliamentary or a royal commission to look at the role and position of the Civil Service in a modern democracy.

13:33

[Lord Levene of Portsoken (CB)]

My Lords, I, too, am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, for his initiative in arranging this debate and I am happy to add to his already mammoth score. There have been quite a number of claims recently—sometimes from Ministers—that civil servants in government departments have not properly pursued the policy that their Ministers have laid down and are being insufficiently supportive of their department’s work. I do not share that view at all.

As some noble Lords may recall, I was, at the time, one of the very few people to have been catapulted into the Civil Service from outside to become a Permanent Secretary. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, and the noble Lord, Lord Butler, will remember the occasion. However, whatever the circumstances may have been concerning that particular appointment, it gave me the huge privilege—I still regard it as a huge privilege—of joining the Civil Service at the top and seeing and learning for myself how the system operated. When I joined the MoD 30 years ago, I had experienced its workings only from the outside and shared the prejudices of many people in relation to civil servants that, fundamentally, they did not work very hard and were inadequately aware of the world outside of their somewhat cloistered existence.

It did not take me very long to realise how wrong I was. When I appeared in the office for the first time, I said to the staff in my private office, “Look, I want everybody in here at 8.30 in the morning”. Their response was, “Of course, then what shall we do in the first hour?”. I recall that not long after the start of the Blair government, one or two Ministers were complaining that their staff did not brief them adequately on the actions that they should take going forward and simply presented to them a number of options without a recommendation. If I recall correctly, it was the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, who, on leaving office himself, commented sagely that that was indeed the proper role for civil servants—to present options to their Ministers and then it was for Ministers, at the end of the day, to take the decision. He was, of course, absolutely right.

Having experienced my own realisation of what the role should be, I developed a great respect for civil servants and I made the following remark to the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, when he was writing his seminal book entitled Whitehall back in 1987:

“We have people within the MoD, within the Civil Service, for whom I would have given my right arm in industry”.

Our Civil Service is, happily, not politicised. It is made up of people who are well trained for their job, recognise their role in the process and work hard for relatively modest reward to serve their country to the best of their ability. I hope, therefore, that in debating the topic put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, for this debate—the future of the Civil Service—we can build on the excellent ethos that has been built up over so many years. I am certainly of the view that we tamper with it at our peril.

13:36

[Lord Sutherland of Houndwood (CB)]

My Lords, we had a splendid opening to this debate and that has been carried through, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Hennessy on that. A number of years ago when I was serving what I suppose was, in a university context, an apprenticeship for this kind of thing, I was the junior member of a senate and had to sit on an appointment panel for a very senior administrative post—university registrar, I think. We were wise and we brought in someone from the Civil Service to help—which is the reverse of the process that we have been complaining about today—as it was an administrative post. He started his questions by looking the first candidate in the eye and saying, “You are evil, but you are necessary”.

I have pondered that ever since and, on the whole, have come down on the “necessary” side, especially in the present company. That was a lesson, and I have to say that any civil servant who was feeling a little bruised in the run-up to this debate might take a turn sitting in front of a senate of academics. I say to them, what you are experiencing now is nothing in comparison.

Lest I run out of time, there are two comments that I will make straightaway. One is that wherever I travel in the world where there is still evidence of the influence of the British Civil Service system, it is a benign influence. Where it is wholly absent, you can tell. By whatever measure you use, this is a benign influence. Secondly—and I should say that I do not think that it is all the fault of the politicians, because we do run the risk of moving in that direction and saying that they are to blame and this perfect Rolls-Royce model is trundling on—I want to focus my remarks for my remaining minute or so on something that has not been discussed in this debate: namely, the place of quangos. They sit roughly between the Civil Service operating as it does and the special advisers brought in to do the jobs that they seem to do.

This came to light in my experience when I was chairing a commission looking at the national tests debacle for schools in 2008, when thousands of schoolchildren did not receive their results on time. The essence of it, eventually, was that there was a quango running this. The internal processes of that quango had failed and the procurement process, though it ticked all the boxes, was not adequate. I have spoken about this before in the House. Also, the lines of communication between the Civil Service, the Department for Education and the quango were messy.

The plan was to deal with the problem of devolving power to a quango by putting observers on the quango and all its subcommittees. It did not work. The observers did not have defined instructions or roles. They did not know, for example, whether they were reporting everything that happened to the Permanent Secretary or not. The members of the quango thought, “Well, we have observers from the DfE sitting here; surely what we are doing is all right”. There was, of course, a real problem and a collapse: a process that spent potentially £150 million of government money collapsed. I ask that, if there is a move towards having a much wider debate, the role of quangos—their powers and their responsibility and accountability to the department—should be sorted out very clearly, especially for those bright young people who go in as observers and do not quite know what they are doing.

13:40

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the—mellow—noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, my PhD supervisor, for introducing such an erudite debate. I am somewhat intimidated by having to follow more than a dozen former Ministers, former Cabinet and Permanent Secretaries and Peers with experience inside Number 10, as well as two professors, one former First Civil Service Commissioner and the Government’s lead non-executive. We also have the benefit of the Truth to Power report, the Civil Service Reform Plan and its one-year update, reports from the Institute for Government, the IPPR, the Liaison Committee, the Public Accounts Committee and our own Constitution Committee, and the annual reports of the noble Lord, Lord Browne; not forgetting the FDA’s own Delivering for the Nation. All these indicate a mood for change.

Despite being neither a former Minister nor a former Permanent Secretary, I want to reflect a third approach, that of consumers of government—especially given that, as Truth to Power says,

“citizens as consumers have hugely increased their demands and expectations of what Government should be able to deliver”.

Indeed, it is for the final user or taxpayer—who funds government—that this relationship between politicians and the service must be world class. People are unhappy when “few ministers or officials” are,

“held accountable when things go wrong”—

“things” which affect their universal credit or other bits of their lives—or when they see their taxes frittered away on expensive mistakes, which does happen. I, too, spent Christmas reading The Blunders of our Governments, which documents not just ministerial errors and the astonishing waste of public money but the often faulty relationship between policy and delivery, as well as the need for less churn, more niche expertise and changes in accountability.

The noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, has done us a major service. First, he quoted the words of the Prime Minister, who, despite being head of the whole service, has said little on this—worse, his odd criticism, such as saying that the service is the enemy of enterprise, has hardly helped relations. Secondly, the noble Lord has, in his inimitable style, recalled “the lustrous quality” of our,

“non-politically partisan public service, transferable from one Government to the next, along with its perpetual duty of speaking truth unto power”.

Indeed, the role of politicians should not be overlooked, as the noble Lord, Lord Norton, and other noble Lords emphasised today. The service does not work in a vacuum but as part of what the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, calls, “the governing marriage” between temporary Ministers and permanent officials. Sadly, most of the bundle of reports concentrates only on the Civil Service, omitting what Ministers might do differently to make it more effective—whether in the complexity of laws or procedures, the lack of devolution or our constant demand for new skills to fulfil new tasks.

As has been acknowledged, our Civil Service is admired around the world. It is politically impartial, with core values of integrity, propriety and objectivity, and it has the ability to transfer its expertise and loyalty from one Government to the next. However, that does not mean that there is no need for change. In a fast-changing world, with new technologies and new forms of service delivery, the Civil Service itself wants to change, to meet the increasing demands of government and the higher expectations of the public. That means addressing skills gaps in procurement, accountability and performance management, the integration of corporate functions and better delivery of major projects. We need the best people to be recruited, trained and retained to deliver quality service and—yes—to be reflective of the population that they serve.

However, the Government’s progress report on the Civil Service capabilities plan gave it a red rating for lack of implementation, while the Jenkin committee—Jenkin junior—wrote of,

“increasing dysfunctionality in aspects of the Civil Service key skills”.

The Public Accounts Committee noted that commercial and contracting skills remain weak. There is a lack of leadership expertise, with only four of the 15 Permanent Secretaries of delivery departments having significant operational delivery or commercial experience. Processes for overseeing major projects lack teeth and are seemingly unable to stop ill conceived or poorly managed projects, while the MPA lacks power.

Some of the Government’s policies have merit, such as greater scrutiny of major projects, reduced turnover of senior responsible officers and integration of corporate functions. However, as the Minister for the Cabinet Office has admitted, the implementation of many of these reforms has been poor and slow to start. Meanwhile, the PAC claims:

“The existing accountability arrangements for permanent secretaries are inadequate”,

and that senior civil servants are not held accountable for poor performance, while good performance is not properly recognised.

There are challenges. Constancy of change is a feature of any large organisation, but the skills and attitudes of civil servants need to reflect the ongoing change challenge. There is a need to provide proper support for Ministers, including in their political role, from a high-functioning, responsive and sufficiently political office, while avoiding what the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, calls the “politicisation” of the senior Civil Service when aligned with greater political input into the choosing of Permanent Secretaries, and the noble Lord’s fear of turning Whitehall into Washington. These issues are too serious to be undermined by overt denigration of the service—by what Truth to Power describes as,

“the vehemence of Ministers’ criticism of the Civil Service”,

or by scapegoating a few officials rather than addressing shortcomings in systems and culture. Morale is key to a high-functioning service, and we damage that at our peril.

The plea for a parliamentary commission from the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, the chairs of 17 committees and the majority of noble Lords who have spoken today should be taken seriously. We remain open-minded, as we are still examining Civil Service reform as part of our policy review, while the timing of any such commission presents its own challenge. There are changes that need implementing in 2015 and we must be sure that any such commission would not distract from, or undermine, reform efforts either in this Parliament or the next. We have heard great words of wisdom today and we look forward to a similar response from the Minister.

13:49

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, that is a pretty firm pass. It is very good to be back after a period away, although this is the first time I will have tried to stand for 20 minutes non-stop. I do not regret the need for this debate and I was rather puzzled that the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, said that in his opening remarks. It seems to me that it is exactly the job of this House to debate the principles of government to see where we think government may be going wrong. We are, in effect, the institutional memory—though some of us can remember rather more than others. In dealing with a number of papers over the past 10 days, I have been very struck by how the institutional memory does not go back much beyond about 1990; however, mine does, so I was able to say, “No, the problem did not begin then”. That is precisely the sort of thing that we should be doing here.

I should declare a few interests. I am a member of the Civil Service reform board. My wife was a civil servant for seven years, at a time when the Civil Service was pretty unfriendly to women with children. My daughter is a civil servant, at a time when the Civil Service is very friendly to women with children—I am happy to say that that is part of the transformation over the past 30 years.

As a young academic, in 1977 I published a study of Whitehall’s management of Britain’s international relations and then got caught up in a government review, the Berrill report, of much the same thing. I vividly remember being carpeted in the Paris embassy by Sir Nicholas Henderson, who thought that I was a dangerous radical suggesting all sorts of things that would undermine Her Majesty’s Diplomatic Service—and, indeed, the Diplomatic Service saw off the Berrill report pretty firmly. That was a mistake. It is part of the problem that we have with the absence of language skills across the Civil Service at present that we did not think, as the Berrill commission and others like me were saying, that we needed to spread those skills across the Department of Trade and Industry and other departments. The internationalisation of government is one of the revolutions that we have been running through since then.

Over the past 30 or 40 years, Whitehall and the British Government as a whole have had to cope with a whole series of changes. I have mentioned internationalisation, but we have also seen the gradual centralisation of the delivery of public services—first across the country and then with the partial reversal of that in the establishment of the devolved Governments—which has left England as the most centralised country in the advanced industrialised world. I hope that what the coalition Government is now doing with city deals is beginning to reverse that. That will have implications for the central Civil Service.

The expansion of public services, particularly the provision of welfare and health, is running up against the limits of the capacity of government to finance the services being provided. That is one of the underlying problems that any Government of any party will face in the coming years.

Over the past 20 years, there has also been the growth of outsourcing and contract management. The move away from lifetime employment has been a matter not just for the Civil Service but for our entire economy and society. It has been recognised that the accumulation of skills from shifts in post in your career helps you on your way to reaching positions of responsibility at the top—particularly, the need to acquire management skills, which the Civil Service has been much concerned about.

Of course, there is also now the digital revolution. The Government have been behind the private sector in moving from paper to digital exchange, but I am happy to say that through the Cabinet Office—Francis Maude and others—they are doing their utmost to catch up. One of the most effective pieces of insourcing in which this Government have been engaged is the creation of the Government Digital Service. This is made up of a number of bright outsiders who hate wearing ties when they come to work but who are very good at pushing forward the revolution that we need in this respect.

There has also been the revolution of the coalition Government, to which the Civil Service has had to adapt. In my experience, a number of civil servants have adapted extremely well to the tactful ways in which Ministers of two different parties have to be treated. There has been a need for adaptation while, as a number of people have argued, sticking to the core principles of Northcote-Trevelyan.

On the concept of civil servants following the national interest, we no longer talk about them as being “servants of the Crown” but the noble Lord, Lord McNally, talked about the ethos of public service and a sense of altruism as being important parts of what they believe in. That ethos has been undermined to some extent, particularly on the economic right, by the growth of public-choice economics and by the philosophies of Ayn Rand which have come across the Atlantic, but I think that all of us here would hold to the idea that service to the state and the concept of public service are important parts of what holds government, the Civil Service and society together.

The noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, referred to the transformation of the Civil Service in terms of diversity and gender. It is encouraging how many bright young women there are coming up in the Civil Service. I think that eight of the 36 Permanent Secretary posts are now held by women—that is not enough; it was rather more two years ago and we hope that it will again be rather more in a few years’ time. There is real diversity across the sector. When I travel to other countries, it seems to me that at every embassy that I visit the economic counsellor is of south Asian extraction. Lots of bright people, men and women, are coming through the Civil Service. That is one of the achievements in particular of the Blair Government and, within the Foreign Office, of Robin Cook. We recognise that that has helped to take us forward.

On the issue of a parliamentary commission, the Government are not persuaded of the need for a vast commission. The noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, is too young to remember some of the royal commissions of the past. When he was probably still at school, I was a junior adviser to the Crowther-Hunt Royal Commission on the Constitution. If he has the nine volumes on his shelves, he will find in volume VII a paper that I wrote. The commission took several years and almost no one now remembers it. We are hesitant about getting back to the circumstance in which, as they used to say, such commissions “take minutes and years”.

The Prime Minister did say to the Liaison Committee that he is not entirely closed to the idea of further inquiries. As the noble Lord, Lord Norton, suggested, it would be more helpful if we took one chunk at a time rather than tried to take the whole thing. For example, there is the question of the relationship among Ministers, civil servants and Parliament. The noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, talked about the role of junior Ministers and how many we may need, which is a rather fundamental issue for the future of the relationship between Executive and legislature. The noble Lord, Lord Waldegrave, suggested that we look at the future of the Civil Service Commission.

Through committees and in debates, there are a range of things that this House and the other House should be encouraged to do. That is a different exercise from saying that we need to start again and re-examine the principles of Northcote-Trevelyan, of Haldane or indeed of Fulton.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

Will the Minister confirm that Parliament can look at these things, in toto or seriatim, only with the consent of the Government? Can we expect that the Government will be more encouraging than they have been so far?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I am not entirely sure what the position on this is, but I suspect that there is a formal position and an informal one. Parliamentary committees inquire into a great many aspects of government, and that is welcome and will no doubt continue. I think that where a good case for a parliamentary inquiry is made, the Government will not obstruct it.

[Lord McNally]

I think that the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, may have been on to something. This House can set up its own committee if the Government were so stubborn as to try to stop any other route. This House can do it and may have to.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the Government are not opposed to intelligent inquiry by Parliament. One of the many things that has changed over the past 40 years is the relationship between Parliament and civil servants. Parliamentary inquiries by my honourable friend Bernard Jenkin’s committee, Margaret Hodge’s committee and others are a regular part of life in a way that they were not 40 years ago. That is a desirable development. We are now having to think about how we rewrite the Osmotherly rules to fit in with this new development.

I have heard a diversity of views in this debate about how far civil servants and senior officials should be directly answerable to Parliament for the major projects that they have been leading. That is another area that is worth examining. After all, we are light years away from the Crichel Down affair, when a Minister resigned over a failure in his department about which he knew little. We would not want go back to that. This is another area where the relationship among Ministers, senior officials and Parliament has evolved, and it will no doubt need to evolve further.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I think I heard my noble friend say that the Government were not opposed to a parliamentary inquiry into the Civil Service. Does that mean that, should Parliament decide to set up an inquiry, it would have the support of the Government?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I said that the Government are not opposed to parliamentary inquiries. The Prime Minister is not currently persuaded of the case for a massive commission of inquiry of the sort that my honourable friend Bernard Jenkin’s committee recommended. No doubt there will be further discussion on that and on the sorts of topics that it would be reasonable to address.

I turn to the politicisation of the Civil Service, which a number of noble Lords have touched on and expressed concern about. In my experience over the past three and a half years, I have found special advisers, both those within the Deputy Prime Minister’s Office and those working for Conservative Secretaries of State, to be extremely helpful in easing the relations between the coalition partners and in assisting private offices in the division of work between what is entirely administrative and what becomes political. Perhaps it would be appropriate for a parliamentary committee to look at the expansion of special advisers but I certainly would give evidence in favour of their usefulness in the scene. Whether or not the expanded ministerial office will be that different from what one saw in Gordon Brown’s private office, for example, where the spads were very much part of the office, I am not entirely sure. Again, we should recognise that practice has already evolved and will evolve further.

There has also been concern about the question of choice in Permanent Secretary appointments. We have been round this many times before. I am old enough to remember as a student the great spat between Richard Crossman and his Permanent Secretary. Since then, a number of Secretaries of State—Jack Straw and others—have insisted that they have in effect chosen their Permanent Secretaries. This is an area in which it seems that the recent suggestion that the Prime Minister should have the ultimate say on the appointment of a Permanent Secretary is an acceptable move in this evolving set of relations.

The move to fixed-tenure Permanent Secretary appointments also seems a worthwhile step forward. We are conscious that there has been a fairly rapid turnover in the past two years, although I point out that the average tenure of Permanent Secretaries currently in place and those who have retired since 2010 is about four years. This is not too violent a change.

How do we strengthen Civil Service accountability? That takes us to the Osmotherly rules and the question of how far Parliament and parliamentary committees should be examining officials directly. We have already gone a long way down that road, as we well know. That requires some further study and investigation because of course one wants to protect officials from too aggressive parliamentary scrutiny. That question therefore relates to Parliament as much as Ministers.

The Civil Service reform plan has been very much concerned with the capabilities, skills and training of the senior Civil Service and with contract management and improving commercial skills. I said to one of my former students the other day that I was not entirely sure about the recommendation that there should be substantial additional payments for some senior officials. I had my ear chewed off by a bright young civil servant who said that we need to buy in commercial and management skills from time to time and if we have to pay more for them it is worth doing. That, after all, is part of what we are now trying to do.

We are carrying through the digital revolution. I have just written a rather sharp note to the Department for Transport about some of the design problems in the DVLA online form for over-70s renewing their driving licence, and had an extremely good reply from the Secretary of State. We are improving, as noble Lords know. The gov.uk website received an award last year.

The role of the head of the Civil Service has also been touched on. Over the years, we have moved from a combined head of the Civil Service and Cabinet Secretary to occasional splits between the two. From my time on the Civil Service Board, it seems to me that the current division works well. Others in later periods may differ again, but that is the preference of the current Government.

Having now worked in five different departments in the past four years, I am concerned about the gap between the departments and the centre. The obscurantism of one or two departments—unnamed—is worrying. The difference in quality of civil servants at the middle level in a number of departments is worrying. Therefore, I am strongly in favour of providing more shared services from the centre as we hope to shrink the central administration and push more delivery down to the local level.

This has been a worthwhile debate. I come back to where I started: the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, should not regret having to call for a debate such as this. It is very much the job of the House of Lords to hold debates about the structure of government and the nature of the state. That should be part of our prime purpose. There is an awful lot of institutional memory inside this Chamber. Sometimes perhaps we think that there was a golden age or that we would like the world to be the way it was 20 to 30 years ago, without fully recognising the challenges we have now. Nevertheless, we have a great deal to contribute.

I thank all those who have contributed, one or two of whom I can remember interviewing when I was a junior academic—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Before the noble Lord concludes, will he deal with the serious point I made in my speech, which the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, also raised, about the upholding of the Civil Service Code and the failure of that to be done in Scotland, and the responsibility that lies with the head of the Civil Service in England because of the precedents it will create to deal with this?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I would prefer to write to the noble Lord on that extremely sensitive issue. I think he will understand why. Such matters under the Civil Service Code are for the Scottish Government in the first instance and will be dealt with by the relevant Permanent Secretary. But I will go back and write to him. I know where he is coming from and the point he is trying to make.

We have had a worthwhile debate. It is very good to have a range of different contributions from people who have seen the evolution of British government—

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, I am sorry to interrupt, but will the noble Lord add the usual assurance that he will provide a copy of that letter to the Library?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I will certainly provide a copy of the letter to the Library.

I look forward to the next debate in this House on the Civil Service and perhaps to the ad hoc committee that the noble Lord, Lord Norton of Louth, might succeed in persuading the authorities to have. This is a subject that we need to continue to discuss, although not necessarily through establishing very large and long-lasting joint parliamentary commissions.

14:08

[Lord Hennessy of Nympsfield]

My Lords, we have had a terrific debate. I am aware of the clock and I shall be brief.

First, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, for the care and thought of his reply. But I must express some disappointment about his views—reflecting the Prime Minister’s views, as he says—on the big inquiry, although I note what he says about little inquiries. No doubt we shall come back to that.

I thank, too, my stellar PhD student, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter—terrific PhD student, like no other—for her and the Labour Party’s open-mindedness on the big inquiry. Above all, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to the debate for their multiple wisdoms, the cornucopian wealth of their cumulated experience and their stimulating reflections. I think it is a record that we have had five former Cabinet Secretaries speaking—I do not think we have had five breathing at the same time before.

A final thought: the Hansard of today’s debate could serve as a very fine submission, a very good briefing paper for the inquiry, in whatever form it comes, whenever it comes. It is just a matter of time. Today’s Hansard will be up there, shimmering, ready. I beg to move.

Motion agreed.

25th Anniversary of the World Wide Web

Thursday 16th January 2014 Lords Chamber

Motion to Take Note

14:10

Moved by

[Baroness Lane-Fox of Soho]

That this House takes note of this year’s 25th anniversary of the World Wide Web and its effects on society in the United Kingdom.

[Baroness Lane-Fox of Soho (CB)]

My Lords, I start by thanking noble Lords for signing up to my debate. I must confess that, as I saw the list of names increase, I was slightly alarmed that perhaps people thought I was going to give some kind of technology master class in the Chamber. However, I think that noble Lords’ enthusiasm, and the breadth of experience that we will hear from this afternoon, is testament to the extraordinary impact this relatively new invention has already had on all our lives.

I first began grappling with the opportunity of the web in 1997 when Brent Hoberman and I co-founded lastminute.com. We were on an evangelical mission. We had to convince suppliers, customers and investors that the internet was here to stay, that the web was not going to blow up and that it was safe to buy things online. Imagine the landscape then: no Facebook, no Google, no Twitter, and certainly no smartphones. What a short time—and how much everything has changed.

The UK has a long history of technology breakthroughs. Sir Tim Berners-Lee’s invention follows on the footsteps of Ada Lovelace’s first computer program, which she wrote for Charles Babbage’s analytical engine in 1842. Obviously, the Bletchley codebreakers deserve a mention for their role in helping us win the Second World War.

I now find the web’s usage numbers not even surprisingly huge any longer: 2.4 billion people worldwide use the web; 1.2 billion are shoppers online. To put this in context, the rate of adoption is warp speed. It took 38 years for the radio to reach 50 million users, it took 13 years for television, it took four years for the web and it took 10 months for Facebook.

The fastest growing demographic using social media is the over-55s. Africa has the fastest growing number of web users, with Nigeria having the largest number; 47% of them are accessing the web via their smartphones. More than 55,000 projects have been started on the crowdfunding platform Kickstarter, most of which would never have got started without it. In the UK alone, £4.6 billion has been earned by people sharing their products and services using what is called the gift economy through sites such as Airbnb or Zopa.

The web has transformed the way we work, the way we interact and the way we play. Some of health’s greatest challenges are being rethought. Millions of so-called citizen scientists are plotting cancer gene patterns via online games. Early intervention in dementia is becoming more common after the success of an online test for patients. Education is being opened up on a global scale through the use of massive open online courses, from Khan Academy’s tutorials to Coursera’s degrees.

All industries are being disrupted. Farmers in Ghana are saving time and money by using their smartphones to trade their products before the long walk to market begins. Underprivileged women in South Africa are breaking out of the cycle of poverty after training that enables them to help US customers with their technology problems.

Even the animal videos posted online—much mocked by some—are now enabling scientists to gather meaningful data about animal relationships that would never have been accessible before. Noble Lords may have seen the BBC’s brilliant documentary “Animal Odd Couples” based on this.

Beyond the hyperbole, this 25th birthday—and as part of that, I hope, this debate—is a good moment to reflect on all these different aspects to the web. The UK’s relative position on the technology stage is a complex one. There are many areas where we lead the world. Products and services delivered online now account for at least 10% of UK GDP. We have the highest proportion in G20 countries. The British are the most advanced online shoppers on the planet. Estimates are that in 2014 e-commerce will be 20% of total UK retail. The UK internet sector is bigger than the health, education or construction sectors. Britain has created some world-leading businesses—Asos, Moshi Monsters and, dare I say it, lastminute.com.

London is becoming a significant tech hub, but it is not alone. Edinburgh, Bristol and Brighton are all seeing record numbers of digital start-ups. Our location and our language mean that we are a vital part of every dominant global web business. London is the only English-speaking city in Facebook’s top 10 and we have the highest number of Twitter users on the planet.

The Government are also making some big strides in how they embrace the web. Through the Government Digital Service, which I am proud to have played a small part in creating, the Government are leading the way for open data, open standards and digital government. The government digital platform, gov.uk, even won a design of the year award from the Design Museum—surely a world first.

This year, coding will be part of the school curriculum and all children aged five and above will be taught computer science. The UK now has the most visionary policy in the G8 for educating children. Yet we face some big challenges. There are 11 million adults who lack the ability to do four basic things online—communicate, transact, search and share information—and to do these things safely. Of these, 50% are over 65 but 50% are of working age in a country where 90% of new jobs require basic online skills and many vacancies are advertised only online. In addition, only 30% of small businesses are able to transact online, meaning that they miss out on both huge sales and savings. Go On UK, the cross-sector charity I chair, estimates that there is £68 billion of value to the economy if we address these adult skills.

We will need to fill 1 million technology sector jobs by 2020, which is looking nearly impossible from our current workforce. More depressingly, the number of women in the UK tech sector is actually falling as an overall percentage. If current trends are not reversed, only 1% of the sector will be female by 2040. Looking around the Chamber today, I am sad to see that this does not seem an alarmist statistic.

Despite the Government’s ambition to improve our infrastructure—I welcome Maria Miller’s announcement this morning about a rural broadband fund—we lag far behind Taiwan, Korea and Japan for universal coverage and a long way behind Singapore or Korea for available average speeds.

I am constantly surprised and frustrated that the only local website in the top 10 most visited websites in this country is the BBC. So although we start as many digital businesses as anywhere in the world, we do not scale them and we do not compete with the global web businesses in the world.

Finally, and perhaps most seriously, we do not have the skills and understanding of the digital world at the top of our corporate, public and political life. This leads to a lack of high-quality decisions about our future—a future where so much will inevitably revolve around technology. Only four FTSE 100 businesses have a CTO or digital executive on their plc board and yet all these businesses face huge upheavals.

Turning to Whitehall, the picture changes again. Just think of the UK Government’s reaction to the Snowden allegations. The political discourse lags far behind that of the US, where an expert panel has looked into the NSA’s claims about the necessity of data gathering and found that only one case was solved by the bulk collection of data—just one, and that was a small incident of money-laundering. We are woefully quiet on the subject of liberty versus security. Allegations that GCHQ and the NSA worked to undermine encryption should caution anyone who trusts the web with their medical, financial or personal records. To add to the complexity, the technology landscape is not remotely stable but is changing at mind-boggling speed.

We face hard questions as we grapple with the technology we already know about, let alone that coming up in the future. What should be the regulation of personal drones? How do we regulate driverless cars? How do we protect against increasing cybercrime? What are the privacy implications of wearable technology? What is the IP of a 3D-printed object in your home? How do we teach children about online identity and anonymity? How do we protect the free flow of information around the world and avoid a balkanised web? How do we make sure that we have the understanding and experience to debate these areas effectively?

To celebrate this anniversary year, Sir Tim Berners-Lee wants to kick off as many open source-style, local discussions as possible to try to answer the question, “What kind of web do we want?”. I would construct my answer by going back to what I imagine were some of his guiding principles in 1989: inclusion, by making sure no one is left behind demographically or geographically; freedom and transparency, by making sure that consumers understand the quid pro quo with the handful of big companies whose services they mainly use without obvious charge; and openness, by making sure no Government can control access and content. This is tested every day. Just this weekend, the Turkish authorities announced a clampdown on websites and a new wave of censorship.

The web has immense power. I find something magical and remarkable on it every single day, but I agree with Sir Tim. We need to talk about the web we want. We need to pause for breath and perhaps be more conscious of the next 25 years of development. At the moment, we are sleepwalking into assuming that the platform underpinning so much of our daily life is not changing.

I should like to ask the Government two questions. First, what plans do they have to mark this extraordinary global invention that should be a brilliant inspiration for the next wave of British inventors? Secondly, do the Government agree that a fitting tribute to Tim’s vision that this is for everyone would be to review the billions government invests annually in adult skills and employment training to ensure that digital skills are embedded throughout the whole of our society?

14:22

[Lord Chadlington (Con)]

My Lords, first, I thank the noble Baroness for initiating this debate. As a distinguished entrepreneur who quickly saw the commercial opportunities that the internet provided, she has gained an iconic reputation for understanding its potential role in every aspect of modern life. Her words today confirm how privileged we are to have her leading this debate.

My contribution is inspired by my first-hand experience of a 94 year-old friend who is determined not to be excluded. He has combated bereavement and loneliness, kept mentally active and even, perhaps, deferred or diminished the onset of mental illness by becoming internet-proficient. In the UK today, there are 10 million people over 65, and by 2050 there will be more than 20 million. Some 11% of one-person households over state pensionable age had internet access in 2000; today it is more than 40%. However, as the noble Baroness pointed out, there are still around 6 million pensioners who have never used the internet. Seventy-five per cent of people in the UK who are over 75 consider themselves lonely. My 94 year-old friend would never consider himself lonely. For him, the internet is infinitely flexible. Online book groups, staying in touch with friends via e-mail and texts, Skype calls and downloading music and videos keep him alert and interested in the world outside. A Dutch survey confirms that people who feel lonely are significantly more likely to develop clinical dementia than those who have no such feelings.

For many older people, the internet empowers them. They are starting small businesses, going on virtual world tours, learning how to stay healthy and even learning to play a musical instrument. Recent research suggests that video games help keep brains alert and improve cognitive function and hand-eye co-ordination. The gaming industry is now looking to develop more video games specifically tailored for older people. Dr Gary Small, a professor specialising in ageing at the University of California, points out that internet surfing uses more brain activity than reading. “It seems”, says Dr Small,

“that people who are more adept with internet technology are likely to remain mentally agile”.

The internet is a global boon to those who are retired, alone, ageing, no longer as active as they were and facing the potential slowing of their mental faculties. Their ability to access the internet, particularly via their TV, a friend they really understand and love, rather than via unfamiliar tablets and phones, will encourage even more of them to use it to the full. This morning, my 94 year-old friend had the last word. He sent me a message inviting me to join him on LinkedIn. I have no doubt that, although physically frail, his astute, inquiring and agile mind is due to his genes but also in no small part due to the invention 25 years ago of the world wide web.

14:22

[Lord Young of Norwood Green (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, on inspiring this debate. My decision to contribute was a bit belated—a bit lastminute.com, if she will pardon the allusion—and given three minutes my speech will need compression techniques.

The cybergenie is well and truly out of the bottle. After a very panoramic view of the range and speed of development, there is not much I can add. No doubt 25 years after Gutenberg and Caxton revolutionised communications in the 14th century, there was a similar debate. I look at the right reverend Prelates, and I am almost certain that there was, given the way that quite contentious pieces of text were circulating.

What we know is that the world wide web—the internet—presents an enormous range of benefits and challenges. It is all pervasive, as the noble Baroness told us, in every sphere of our society, whether health, education, banking, retail, science or defence. The ability for the world to be a truly global place and for people to communicate quite cheaply using Skype is another profound change in the way people communicate.

There are lots of positive benefits but perhaps some of the biggest challenges that the Government face are things such as cybersecurity. Everything now rests on the web or the internet in one way or the other. Keeping that information safe is a big challenge. Only yesterday, we saw a horrifying use of the internet in child abuse and paedophilia. Young children in the Philippines were being used to gratify the obscene needs of some people scattered around the world. We have to look at all aspects of that. There is the question of taxing the companies which make enormous profits on the internet and the world wide web in a way that does not hamper growth but makes sure that they make a real contribution to the economies that they benefit from. Equality of access is another point to which the noble Baroness drew our attention. There is still a digital divide when it comes to speed of access and, for some, a generational divide. We need to do more to encourage the older generation to participate, as the noble Lord, Lord Chadlington, said in his contribution, although I think that as each successive generation comes along, they will be more able to do that, and the younger generation to be internet savvy. I agree with the noble Baroness that the essential skills that employers need are not just literacy and numeracy but computer skills as well.

We need to remind ourselves that 50 years ago Gordon Moore came up with Moore’s law. For those who are not aware of it, it says that every two years the number of transistors on a chip will double. Without that vision and the determination of industry to provide it, the internet would probably be a lot slower. We need to remind ourselves that we have more power in our mobile phones than they had when they landed the first man on the moon.

What do we want the Government to do? The Government should encourage the older generation to participate and perhaps have an overall digital strategy to ensure that society as a whole benefits from the world wide web and the internet. I am an incurable optimist so I believe that the internet glass is half full.

14:29

[Lord Clement-Jones (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, not only on opening this debate in such an inspiring way but on so successfully carrying out her role as the Government’s UK digital champion.

The use of the internet in the UK climbs inexorably. We celebrated the universality of the web at the Olympic opening ceremony with Sir Tim Berners-Lee tweeting, “This is for everyone”—a phrase mentioned by the noble Baroness—which was instantly spelled out in lights attached to the tablets on the seats of the 80,000 people in the audience. I absolutely share the noble Baroness’s concern to ensure that no one is excluded.

Having come to the web myself some 20 years ago, and now standing here with my iPad with all its apps, I still find the speed of developments since I first used the Netscape browser quite extraordinary. Sir Tim and the early pioneers of the web deserve huge recognition for setting the open and neutral standards that ensured the growth of the world wide web. However, the development of ethical safeguards and standards now needs to evolve at the same pace as the range of applications. The web is not some kind of foreign country where ordinary rules of conduct do not apply. We need an alignment of online and offline rights and protections. Freedom of expression is a vital principle that needs to be upheld both online and offline but it needs to be balanced with rights of privacy.

One commentator has said that Silicon Valley appears to regard privacy as a “marketable commodity”. The Government, through what we now know about their access to the Prism programme, appear to have a similar view. It is vital that we have maximum control over our own metadata. The UK’s ranking in the World Wide Web Foundation’s Web Index is reduced by concerns over the UK Government’s attitude to privacy rights. I hope that Communications Data Bill will not resurface in its previous form. Therefore, I welcome the campaign, the Web We Want, and the statement of 19 December co-ordinated by the foundation.

I also welcome the recognition by the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport of the need for adequate filtering to protect young people from online abuse. However, as was discussed in this House only recently with the Online Safety Bill of the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, should we not be making filtering compulsory? Is it enough simply to leave it up to parents to make the choice about appropriate safety features?

There is concern about the content of online music videos, highlighted among others by Reg Bailey in his review into the commercialisation and sexualisation of children. The proposed amendment to the Video Recordings Act is designed to ensure that content presently exempt from classification but unsuitable and potentially harmful for younger children will in future require BBFC classification. However, it covers only hard copy video works. Should not online music videos containing sexual or explicit content be subject to the same age ratings and regulations? As my right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister has advocated, we also need better guidance for young people about the dangers of online pornography.

I also ask my perennial question to my noble friend the Minister. When can we expect full implementation of the Digital Economy Act 2010 or at least an alternative effective remedy to combat online copyright piracy? I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

14:33

[Lord Crisp (CB)]

My Lords, I, too, congratulate my noble friend on securing this debate and on setting the scene so brilliantly. In my three minutes I will speak only of health, where the world wide web already contributes enormously but where there is much more to come.

The web enables clinicians to access information where and when they need it, which is ever more important in a world where, for example, there are now more than 6,000 different disease entities. It also enables them to consult colleagues. Organisations such as the Swinfen Charitable Trust, run by the noble Lord, Lord Swinfen, and his wife, allow clinicians in even the most remote and isolated locations in the world to consult a network of clinicians in every discipline. The web also helps meet patients’ demand for information and empowerment. For example, there are 27 million views of NHS Choices a month and 1 million patient reviews of services on the site. It also allows for the remote monitoring of patients where, with the whole system demonstrator, the NHS leads the world in terms of evidence-based use of this technology at significant scale. There is even patient self-treatment. There is an excellent programme called “Beating the Blues”, which is designed to do exactly what its name implies, and I wonder whether this is the first internet-delivered treatment available on NHS prescription. If so, I am sure there will be many more.

A very important point has been made about inclusion, where again there is much to do. The sickest are probably the least able to access help electronically, but conversely the web offers much greater reach to people than otherwise. I pay tribute to the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, as the nation’s digital inclusion champion.

However, progress in health has not, perhaps, been as a fast as one might have expected because behaviour change is slow in health and redesign involves many other aspects of health systems. This is problematic but not necessarily always a bad thing. It is important that, in a subject as crucial as people’s health, evidence of impact and effectiveness is properly weighed and we should not rush in just because something seems attractive.

I conclude on a point where we need national and international co-ordination. I am privileged to be one of the Global eHealth ambassadors, in a programme chaired by Archbishop Desmond Tutu. It exists to promote telemedicine and e-health globally. It sees e-health as a means of transforming healthcare delivery to make it economically and socially much more sustainable. It campaigns for some standardisation of systems and methodologies in e-health to ensure that data can be properly shared and that every clinician can judge the reliability and effectiveness of the electronic tools they are offered. We need a global framework for this. This is very ambitious but much of the infrastructure to sustain that transformation already exists. The programme gives an example of one of those wonderful internet facts. It asserts that there are now more cell phones in Africa than toothbrushes. I am not sure that we can verify this assertion but we have known for years that toothbrushes are essential for health and we now know that cell phones and the world wide web are even more essential.

14:37

[The Lord Bishop of Derby]

My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, on introducing a party into this Chamber. Perhaps the screens should have moving images and the lights should move much more quickly.

The world wide web is a wonderful development but it is full of challenges. It is a mixed bag, as we have heard from a number of noble Lords. Regarding health, I was part of the IF campaign for enough food for everybody, and the web enabled that campaign to involve all kinds of people. It was inclusive, flexible, transparent, participative and enormously successful. The web is the new political tool.

On the other hand, I have been involved in debates in the past couple of months in this Chamber—as the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, hinted—about online pornography, the objectification of women and the bullying of young people. There is a dark side to the internet and we should not be surprised at that, given that this is human nature engaging with a wonderful invention with all kinds of dark possibilities.

I am reminded from my experience of being a university teacher that when students writing an essay searched the web to fill up a couple of pages, you could always tell—the information just did not fit with the main argument because they did not understand the angle it came from. The information that the web is so wonderful at making available needs interpretation. Wisdom is interpretation on a very wide scale—a big picture—and the bigger the picture, the more you can see, appreciate and interpret.

The marvel of this world wide web is that you can now hold it in the palm of your hand, and, with one finger—or two thumbs, if you are more dextrous than me—control the web and have the information come to you. That raises huge questions about how we help people interpret all the information, temptation and possibilities. My simple question is: what is the role of a Government concerned about human rights and human welfare in trying to give people a hinterland and some tools, with allies—which allies the Government would recognise is another question—so that there is a big picture to help people interpret? People talk about giving parental control. That is a technical solution, but parents and others need a kind of hinterland; a wider vision with which all this information can be processed, evaluated and deployed creatively.

14:40

[Lord Holmes of Richmond (Con)]

My Lords, www.chrisholmes.co.uk—if I am not in the Chamber, that is where you can find me. That is the point; we all need an online presence, or at least an online connection. If we want the best shopping deals, the cheapest flights, the best hotels, or if we want to interact with local or national government, we do so online. When I was a schoolboy, 25 years ago, I had no idea about the world wide web or its potential; I was still playing on my ZX Spectrum.

Latterly, at the Olympic and Paralympic Games, when we were making the Games’ website, we were profoundly aware of the impact that it could have. It was the most visited website of the year, reaching billions around the world to become the first truly new-media Olympic and Paralympic Games. That is the point; we need to be online, and yet millions suffer on the wrong side of the digital divide, for reasons of age and geography, for social and economic reasons, or because of disability-related factors. Disabled people who are currently offline number 3.8 million. This has to change. We need to look across the piece at the skills, kit and technology—and, crucially, at ensuring that the best broadband is rolled out right across Britain. I ask my noble friend the Minister to comment specifically on all the points around broadband.

The coming decade will be fascinating, not least in the relationship between our on and offline environments, such as the connection between bricks and clicks in retail. Click and collect was excellently delivered this Christmas by our retailers, not least John Lewis. In a wider context, to see how the internet has impacted politics, we should look to Libya and Egypt. There is all this to come, and the time moves so quickly in this internet age.

Similarly, considering where the next steps will come from, we have already heard about issues of online security. As Eric Schmidt of Google said, “Mea culpa, we didn’t think criminals would show up”. It is crucial that we make this environment safe and secure. A lot of that will tie in with the quality and credibility of the content that is online: how it is ranked, how we access it, whether we can rely on what we are reading online and how we can make sure that we are secure while we are there.

In short, we have to consider accessibility in its widest possible sense. We have to consider usability in its widest possible sense. As has already been mentioned by noble Lords, we need inclusion and inclusivity in their widest possible senses. We need to ensure that we do not construct in the internet world artificial, exclusionary barriers and steps in cyberspace.

14:43

[Baroness Kidron (CB)]

I, too, thank my noble friend Lady Lane-Fox for bringing a party to the House and apologise for raining a little on the parade. I declare an interest as having recently made a documentary film about teenagers and the net. I am specifically raising the issue of how data relate to young people today.

Unlike the early cry of “free, open and democratic”, we are all aware that the web has become monetised with a value that is entirely dependent on harvesting data—data created by our interacting as much as humanly possible with the commercial platforms on the web. The millions spent on the vast and incremental experimentation of combining neuroscience and technology to keep us attached to our devices is not disputed by those who do it, but it fuels a culture of compulsion, disclosure and distraction that has a particular implication for young people who are not yet fully formed.

Our young people are growing up with devices that act as their telephone, post box, camera, scrapbook, family album, newspaper and school pigeonhole. In using those devices they routinely relinquish ownership of every interaction, private and public. It is worth reminding ourselves that, in this context, the data we are talking about are actually the intimate details of young people in their period of greatest personal developmental and social change. It is as if we are taking their bedrooms and putting them up for sale on eBay. We have allowed a situation to develop in which it is legal for a multibillion dollar industry to own, wholly and in perpetuity, the intimate and personal details of children. We all know that this space is moving so fast that we do not really know what might happen to it in the future.

In every other part of life, children are children, and we take a view on their level of maturity and accompanying levels of responsibility. We protect them from every other addictive substance. On the net, it seems, we are asking that they take responsibility on their own, even as we denude them of power over, and ownership of, their own histories.

I did want to come to the party. I was an early adopter and I love the internet. It has delivered previously unimaginable opportunities that hold within them the full gamut of human creativity, but it is not without cost. We have a responsibility in this House to ensure that it is not the next generation who pay the price. In July last year, the Prime Minister, David Cameron, said that,

“when it comes to the internet in the balance between freedom and responsibility we’ve neglected our responsibility to children … So we’ve got to be more active, more aware, more responsible about what happens online. And when I say we I mean we collectively: governments, parents, internet providers and platforms, educators and charities”.

I could not agree more.

At 25, the world wide web, unlike many of its young users, has reached the age of maturity. What better celebration could we have than designing and putting in place a regulatory framework that protects young people from the routine collection of their data, to be stored and sold in perpetuity without any recourse or protection?

14:47

[Lord Giddens (Lab)]

My Lords, I join the queue in congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, on having initiated this debate, and say what a great addition she is to your Lordships’ House. That is my three minutes more or less gone.

I will be more extravagant than most other speakers so far and say that the internet has been the greatest transformative force in history bar none, because of the speed of its transformation; as has already been mentioned: it took 20 years. The invention of writing is perhaps the only parallel, but that took 5,000 years and was the prerogative only of elites. It is the greatest transformative force because of its scope, because it is the instrument of globalisation on a level never seen before; and because of its intensity—it enters all our lives. We see people going along the streets who cannot let go of their mobile phone. It has become an intrinsic part of who they are. There has never been anything like this before in history, so it is not surprising that it is rather difficult to come to terms with its longer-term impact.

I will make some brief comments on higher education and the advent of MOOCs. MOOCs are not a kind of medieval curse; the acronym stands for massive open online courses, which promise to be deeply transformative of universities. When I was running the LSE about 15 years ago, we all thought that the future of universities would be online. We had consortia with other universities in the United States, but that did not really work. The only experiment that worked a bit was with the University of Phoenix, which was more or less an online university.

MOOCs are transforming that situation. Now these courses are being adopted by the elite American universities: Harvard, MIT and Stanford. They promise to be both deeply shocking to traditional universities and also to add to their armoury. In this country we lag behind. The Open University is in the forefront, but the Americans—as before, perhaps—are well in the lead.

The advent of massive online courses will not see the end of the campus-based university, because such universities have other things to offer. We are not having this debate online, but in your Lordships’ Chamber. There is what sociologists call the “compulsion of proximity”—the need to be with other people—and the added value of having been to a campus-based university. However, massive online courses will probably transform universities as fundamentally as Amazon has transformed the book trade; that is the future they offer.

They also offer the opposite—the digital divide, which has been referred to by many people. Billions of people will be able to follow these courses online and interact with other people in real time, in seminar groups across the world. That will be possible for billions of people in Africa, for example. It will be like mobile phones; Africa will be able to jump a stage in the evolution of education.

I conclude by saying, “Don’t go all high-tech”, because back to the future will often be one of our political remedies. We used to think that the car was the instrument of the future, but now we are going back to bicycling and walking. That will be true of all areas. I wave my piece of paper, but that is not because I think I am just a remnant of a previous age; there will be many areas where simple, back to the future solutions will be just as important as technologically developed ones.

14:50

[Lord Kirkwood of Kirkhope (LD)]

My Lords, the great thing about anniversaries is that they happen every year. I suggest to the noble Baroness that she puts in her diary now the date 16 January 2015 and that we do this all again. I am making a sensible point there: we should be having annual debates about the effect of the digital revolution we face. I absolutely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Giddens, as the internet is certainly the most transformative thing that has happened in my lifetime and is something that we cannot ignore.

As chairman of the Information Committee in your Lordships’ House I was absolutely delighted—that is the only word I can use—when I heard that the noble Baroness was joining us, because I was sure that she would have an effect on the way we work. We have been engaged in parliamentary business for 700 years. We are now facing a change in circumstances that will require revolutionary methods of responding if we are not to fall far behind. The process of legislation that is the important duty of this House will become more difficult to deliver if we do not respond to the degree of challenge we now face.

I absolutely agree with the noble Baroness about the three or four values she set out as absolute necessities for the future: inclusion, transparency and openness, in that order. As somebody who is involved and interested in social security, inclusion for me is first: the last thing we need in this country is a digital divide that is exacerbated by leaving a huge proportion of our population behind. That is something to which we must attend.

In the next two minutes, I want to persuade your Lordships that we have a serious problem in the way we do business here if we are to keep up with the change that is coming. The nexus of mobile working together with cloud computing, social media and big data information that is about to happen to us, if it is not happening already, is extraordinary. If we continue to ignore it, we will be leaving the process of engagement and disengagement with Parliament in a much more difficult position over the next few years. Somebody said to me the other day that, by 2017, 75% of all government data will be in the public domain, so we cannot continue to go on the way we are going.

There is good news. Now that we have a completely wi-fied parliamentary precinct, which was a welcome decision by the administration, we will—although this will be troublesome for some Members, and I am sorry we cannot avoid that—be rolling out Windows 365 during the rest of this year. It is hoped that by the summer we will all be capable of moving and working at the same time. I exhort Members to take advantage of the possibilities now being offered.

However, in the future we need to get a plan for a digital political system of operating in Parliament. Otherwise, the public will leave us behind completely, which will not be good for Parliament or for the rest of the country.

14:53

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Lane-Fox for bringing to bear her expertise, which I hope to test further towards the end of my three minutes.

Education is at the root of so much with which we concern ourselves in this House. What is the greatest prerequisite of education? I say that it is curiosity. When we think that, thanks to the web and the internet, I can in a second summon up a page of an original Bach manuscript, look at a detail of a Leonardo da Vinci sketch or put in a line of Shakespeare and have the context quoted back to me almost immediately, it is little wonder that students and children, young and old alike, find tuition and research on the web. We owe much to it for that.

Even your Lordships, when they cannot be here for a whole day, can keep au fait with what is going on in this House and, perhaps more fundamentally, taxpayers can see what we are up to and what Members are up to in the other place. I often wonder what Moses might have thought, had he had access to the web, and how much trouble it would have saved him, but then he probably would have been rather horrified at the way the commandments are being broken on the web as well as acceded to. Certainly, to pick up on an earlier remark, this morning’s news item from the Philippines is a good example of things that we have to be careful about and legislate against, for the web is a double-edged sword.

If I might speak now as a composer, there are problems. Frankly, I am hugely flattered when I find that people have accessed my music, legally or illegally, on the web. My publishers, record companies and instrumental players and singers are slightly less happy, because they do not get the rewards due to them. Here comes my challenge to my noble friend and to the Minister: really, there is a problem here. I love it that so many people come into my shop, if you like, but it is a worry that they can take things off the shelves without paying for them—a worry not only for the people I mentioned but for the bills that other composer colleagues have to pay. As the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, said, we have not managed to deal with copyright exception measures, especially the copyright infringement provisions, which have not yet been implemented.

I know that this is a very difficult area to police, but if the noble Baroness and, in particular, the Minister, would look at this area, they would be doing good to a section of the creative industry that brings a huge amount into the economy, whether it be the Beatles, Radiohead, Coldplay, Peter Maxwell Davies or Harrison Birtwistle. You need to protect that which we are bringing into your economy.

14:53

[Lord Mitchell (Lab)]

My Lords, in thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, for her magnificent speech, I must say that she and I belong to a very exclusive club in your Lordships’ House: we are both IT entrepreneurs, although there are a few others. I pay every tribute to all she has done. For the help she has given in the skills sector through Go ON and for the help she has given me in my role in Labour Digital, I thank her again.

In 1967 at the age of 24, I joined what was then called the data processing industry. I was a systems engineer, and the first central processor I ever worked on was an IBM 360/30. It had 64,000 bits of memory and it cost £65,000 to buy. The CPU was a huge box with dials and lights on it. It was kept in a dedicated air-conditioned environment and it must have weighed a ton. Input was via punched cards. Today, I have an iPhone 5 in my pocket, which has a million times more memory and costs one-thousandth of the price. It has no air conditioning, no punched cards and input is via touch or voice. This is Moore’s law in action, with processing speeds doubling every 18 months.

The world wide web needed not only massive leaps in computing speed but also massive leaps in communication ability. We all remember fax machines that connected at 9,600 bits per second—how fast they seemed then. My network at home has a speed of 100 megabytes per second—10,000 times as fast. We are witnesses to a revolution in digital that is every bit as dramatic as the Industrial Revolution was 200 years ago. Just as James Watt showed that steam could drive a machine and replace muscle, so Tim Berners-Lee’s invention of the world wide web has replaced the way we access data, communicate and organise our lives. As coal, oil, petrol and electricity give us energy to power our lives, so digital is now giving us mass access to swathes of information.

I would like to take a look at retail. In the UK, more than 3 million people work in this sector. If you compare the number of employees required for each £1,000 sold online against the numbers required for traditional retailing, the ratio is 1:3, so any move to online retailing is bound to cause significant reductions in employment. Last year, Jessops, HMV and Blockbuster all went bust due to their own technology myopia. There are many more to come. In the past week we have seen that, over the holidays, the quantity of retail sales completed online reached 20%—a massive increase. The retailers who are succeeding are those who embraced online many years ago. However, Morrisons was never interested in online retailing, and we have seen what is happening to that company.

I have cited retail, but I could have mentioned schools, universities, medicine or even government itself. All these sectors are changing at a very rapid pace. As other noble Lords have mentioned, the next big thing will be wearable technology. What we see before us is Joseph Schumpeter’s concept of “creative destruction” on steroids. The digital revolution is sweeping all before it. Those who embrace it will prosper, and I suspect that those who do not will mostly perish.

15:02

[Viscount Colville of Culross (CB)]

My Lords, I, too, would like to add my congratulations to my noble friend Lady Lane-Fox on such an inspiring introductory speech to the debate.

As some noble Lords have said, the internet, which Sir Tim Berners-Lee opened up in 1988, has become the greatest source of information and freely exchanged ideas in history. However, these early ideals are under threat as Governments struggle to try to control this source of free speech. It is not just in undemocratic countries that citizens face being cut off from free access to the world wide web; the threat to the freedom and openness of the internet extends into western democracies as well and concerns all of us in the United Kingdom.

I fear that the independence of the international organisations that run the internet is in danger. I would like to draw your Lordships’ attention to what is happening to two of these bodies. At the moment, an independent body, the Internet Engineering Task Force, decides on the protocols for the internet—that is, the nuts and bolts of how it is run. Its role is vital as it selects the technology to ensure easy and unimpeded movement of information, safeguarding security for people who bank, trade and move sensitive information across the net. Likewise, ICANN, the phonebook of the internet, is an independent, not-for-profit organisation. At the moment, its ownership and control are evolving.

However, there are determined attempts, led by Russia and some Middle East Governments, to subvert the independent control of these and other organisations which run the internet. These Governments want them to become part of the United Nations International Telecommunication Union. If they succeed, national Governments will have the final say on how to innovate technology and control access to websites on the internet. They will have the power to negotiate and prohibit the technology as it is rolled out on the internet and even to veto it. The ITU meetings are often held behind closed doors, with civic and user organisations excluded.

These Governments also want ICANN to come into the ITU, opening the possibility that Governments who do not like whole categories of websites could try to cut them off from the internet by banning them from the directory. I, for one, do not think that this offers a guarantee of free speech. Sir Tim Berners-Lee said that the running of the internet should be left to its users rather than to a UN agency representing the world’s Governments, which would only interfere further with its openness.

For some years now there have been attempts to set up independent multi-stakeholder control of these crucial internet bodies. That approach would allow internet companies and citizens to be equal partners with national Governments, so that one group does not abuse another. It would enshrine transparency and open up discussion to ensure that national Governments do not dominate the running of the internet. That issue will be central to the agenda of the internet governance conference to be held in April in Brazil, to which the UK will be sending a sizeable delegation.

I ask the Minister to require that our Government do everything possible to ensure that the bodies which run the internet are not subverted by national Governments opposed to freedom and openness.

15:05

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I confess an interest in that I earn most of my income from the web and that the social enterprise I am promoting at the moment, which is called The Good Careers Guide, depends for its potential success entirely on web technologies, so I am perforce an optimist for the web but, I hope, a rational one.

As the noble Lord, Lord Giddens, said, we are in the middle of an unprecedented upheaval, but we probably do not yet realise the size of its consequences. I am optimistic that this will lead to a far better world than we have at the moment, but we will have to work hard to make sure that it does. We in Parliament have a very important role to play in that, acting in the interests of citizens and the country to tame the forces which might otherwise overwhelm us.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, talked about the importance of education and of including all our citizens in the benefits of the internet. Doubtless, the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, will also speak about that. I entirely agree with that.

I hope, too, that we will take a stand against those parts of the internet which have become, or seem to be becoming, more powerful than states. We should stand beside Sherlock Holmes in confronting our digital Charles Augustus Magnussens and the amoral, all-knowing Amazon, Google, Facebook and others. I think we should stop short of Sherlock Holmes’s solution of actually shooting them, but we should stand up to them. We should not allow them to use legal tax avoidance to destroy our own domestic companies which cannot take advantage of the routes that the international companies do.

We also have to take a strong look at ownership. I own my library, which was my parents’ library and my grandparents’ library and beyond that, but my children will have no library. All they are being offered at the moment is the opportunity to rent, and they will have nothing to give to their children. That is the other side of the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. Why I do not approve of piracy is because the owners of copyright are trying to deprive us of the right of ownership once we have paid for it. We need something along the lines of an information right—something to give us as citizens the right over our own information against the all-powerful organisations which have made themselves a necessary part of life and demand all our information and all power over it if we are to use their services.

Politics and politicians have a very important part to play in the future of the internet. I very much hope that the Government will face up to that.

15:09

[Lord Puttnam (Lab)]

My Lords, we are all indebted to the noble Baroness for the opportunity to discuss and debate this subject. I declare an interest as I am a very pale imitation of the noble Baroness and I struggle to match her achievements: I am the national digital champion of the Republic of Ireland. Through the Open University, Promethean and the Times Educational Supplement, I have been able to engage with education transformation right across the piece.

I start with some amazingly good news. Ten days ago, on 6 January, 1 million teachers shared lesson plans and ideas with each other across the web on this one day at the beginning of term. Not only did that possibility not exist at all in 2008, but that degree of co-operation would have been unimaginable during the six years that I worked with the Department of Education not that long ago. Quite extraordinary things are taking place but, as has been said, the digital world is both a creator and, potentially, a destroyer of jobs, even of lives. I do not believe that that is fully understood by government or business. In their own ways, both the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, and the noble Lord, Lord Giddens, are right: there are extraordinary opportunities and great dangers. Jaron Lanier’s book, Who Owns the Future?, unblinkingly sets out these challenges. He, like Sir Tim Berners-Lee, seeks what he describes as a very humanistic economy enabled by the world wide web. The noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, suggested that we should seek the web that we want and I agree with her.

In the couple of moments left to me, I want to make a suggestion, which I hope does not sound too Utopian because it is not intended to be so. Governments always tend to be behind the curve on this type of thing but here is a suggestion that I suspect the noble Lord, Lord Bates, in responding, will like very much indeed. Almost 20 years ago, I had the pleasure of serving under the noble Lord, Lord Chadlington, in the early days of the National Lottery, looking at ways in which that extraordinary creation of Sir John Major was able genuinely to transform opportunities for arts and other organisations in the UK. Similarly, an amazing statistic—I rely here entirely on the Email Statistics Report published in Palo Alto last year—is that 183 billion e-mails are sent every day. At the outset, had we had the wit to place a 1p levy on each e-mail—these are unaudited figures—that would generate today £730 billion worldwide. That figure is 29 times the total amount spent by the United Nations and all its agencies each year. It is more than the global aspiration for development and climate change mitigation recommended by the UN. Last year, the need of UNICEF, of which I was UK president, was £1.7 billion, of which only 46% is currently funded. This tiny 1p levy could totally change the landscape of aid and the opportunities for multinational support worldwide.

I realise that it is rather late in the day to suggest this, but there is another advantage. If there were such a levy, it might allow people to pause momentarily before hitting that quite dreadful “Reply to All” button.

15:12

[Lord Birt (CB)]

My Lords, I declare an interest as a director of three companies listed in the register which conduct their business on the internet. The world wide web is a veritable miracle of science and technology, captured brilliantly by the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, in her opening remarks. Information can be uncovered in seconds which once would have taken days; pictures and news can be shared instantly with friends and family; grandparents can Skype their loved ones in Australia; anyone can set up shop, or start a business, for next to nothing; and individuals are free to express their political and other passions, convictions and beliefs, as never before, unmediated. Events can be broadcast that repressive states once covered up with ease. The internet has enabled, empowered and enriched us. But it also brings worries as well as wonders, and neither nationally nor internationally have we developed an appropriate policy or institutional framework to address them.

In the UK, we have a lively start-up sector, yet we have to look abroad for many of our skills. There is a huge shortage of programmers in some web languages, especially those needed for developing mobile applications, and the UK’s educational bodies are not fleet-footed enough to meet that shortfall. We are tolerating behaviour and actions on the internet that would never be allowed in the physical domain. For a while, Facebook, with spurious justification, believed that videos of beheadings should be allowed on its service. If our banks exploited information about our private transactions in the manner of Google, there would be uproar. If the ugly, threatening, sexist abuse that is harboured routinely on Twitter took place in a pub, it would more often be prosecuted. When Lily Allen criticised online copyright theft, her website was the target of a DDoS—a distributed denial of service—attack by online anarchist warriors, no doubt using malware placed on millions of computers known to the ISPs, but not to their innocent owners, all mounted with impunity.

Online fraud takes place on a gigantic and global scale. In the UK, we neither measure its impact on our citizens, nor do we do anything material to counter it. Without threatening in any way the precious, priceless benefits that the world wide web has brought us, the task over the next 25 years is to extend to it civilised standards and the rule of law.

15:16

[Lord Knight of Weymouth (Lab)]

My Lords, last night, looking at the time limit for today, I tweeted in despair:

“Tomorrow I speak in @Marthalanefox’s Lords debate in 25th birthday of World Wide Web. Time limit of 3 minutes! What’s most important to say?”.

Adam replied from New York:

“That you can simply ask the ‘common folk’ what to spend your 3 minutes saying, just by tweeting the question!”.

So that was that. I will use my time to tell you what my social media followers on the world wide web wanted me to say. I must first refer the House to my entry in the register, in particular as chair of the Tinder Foundation. Thanks to successive government funding, we have helped 1.2 million people to get online since 2010 through UK online centres.

I turn back to Twitter and Facebook, starting with Tom Watson MP:

“Just say: Thanks Tim!”.

Ed Balls just said:

“@edballs”.

Then Councillor Warren Morgan said:

“The web has connected and empowered, informed and democratised, tackled isolation, built new generations of businesses, spread ideas”.

Susan had the freedom of Facebook to say more:

“Connections through the internet enable ordinary people in different countries to communicate directly with each other, to understand each other better ... It also means lots of people who would otherwise be isolated—whether geographically or because of disability or because they are carers—are able to keep their minds and spirits alive. Politically, it's wonderful. More people can be engaged in trying to influence the decisions a country makes”.

Louise and Peter had a more nuanced view:

“The web is a powerful tool that's used for good and ill. With the freedom the WWW gives comes greater personal responsibility resting on the shoulders of those in power”.

Stephen Heppell asked:

“Why isn’t Tim on a banknote yet?”.

He also wants kids to own their learning data and to have education discounts on connectivity for learners. Ruth agreed and added:

“Plus maybe something about digital exclusion—geographically (it’s still APPALLING in some parts of the country) and demographically (viz poverty). And you ought to celebrate the richness of life brought through cat videos. Probably”.

Helen agreed with Ruth and said:

“Make sure you mention how handy it is for sharing cat videos”.

Emma Mulqueeny just posted another video of her kitten, Grape.

There were also several who celebrated the freedom of the web but worried about who controls it. That was best summed up by Mark, William and Adam who said:

“This will only be persistent as a benefit if we actively seek to protect the neutrality of the network. 25 years can be about celebrating the past but absolutely also needs to be a call for vigilance in developing further an equitable future. We need to address the surveillance problem. And we need personal control over personal data. The freedom and anonymity of the web which is a vital part of its power and vitality is being eaten away by govts and big corps. If this continues a lot of what makes it important will vanish. Sorry to sound like a liberal”.

I have curated all the comments on Storify but will conclude by quoting Owen:

“The web is the single most powerful thing that mankind has ever created but, like most other things, it can be used for good or for evil purposes. What we have to master is giving freedom to the good whilst curbing the evil”.

Finally, from me, thanks Tim for your gift to everyone. You gave it for free to keep it universal. As a result, we all have to change how we do things to make the most of it, for everyone.

15:20

[Baroness O’Neill of Bengarve (CB)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Lane-Fox for introducing what must be a central topic for all of us. She also asked the right question: what sort of world wide web do we want? There are also the questions of what sort of web we can have and have now.

We are probably living in the twilight of the cyber-romantics who think that zero regulation of everything online is the way we should head. We obviously are not in that situation. The effective and enriching use of the web is life-transforming but depends on the right sort of legislation and regulation in the right places. If we doubt that, we have to think, just for a moment, about all the online shopping that people do and what it has taken for people to have a reasonable degree of confidence about entering that world. Of course, there are other worlds about which they do not have that confidence.

The area of greatest worry to a lot of people is online privacy and surveillance. However, it is odd that they feel it is okay for the Amazons, Googles and others to have their private data but somehow not okay for Governments to have it. That proposition will need to be tested down the route. Commercial power is not negligible.

I should like to ask the Minister some limited questions on privacy. We are, as we know, facing a new data protection regulation, which, if it comes through the process in Brussels, will spread across the entire European Union and ostensibly aims to protect privacy more by raising the standards for consent. Will it do that or will it protect fictions of privacy by allowing fictions of consent to count as legitimating? Do Her Majesty’s Government have a view on that?

I should also like to ask the Minister a question about anonymity. This is a matter of some disagreement. Some people think that online anonymity is highly desirable. They note, of course, that it protects the spamster, the scamster and the cyberbully but feel that that issue should be settled at another level. However, knowing that we are anonymous is, to be sure, liberating but often in dangerous ways. In serious situations, we stand by our words, and free communication depends upon being able to judge what the other party says.

We have heard a good deal in this debate about the merits of transparency. I do not believe that transparency is a sufficient, ethical ideal for online communication. It is a remedy for secrecy but is not sufficient for communication, which is surely what matters, online as much as face to face—being able to judge what others are saying and what they are doing in saying it. Are they, for example, promising something or threatening something? We need to be able to judge not just speech content but speech acts. This can be frustrated in many ways, and I ask the Minister whether he thinks that there are things that we need to do to limit online anonymity in order to protect the future possibilities of online communication.

15:23

[Lord Black of Brentwood (Con)]

My Lords, I join others in congratulating the noble Baroness on her introduction to this historic debate. While the internet impacts on every aspect of life, two areas of society affected most are education and the media.

The changes that have taken place in education have been breathtaking, not least for adults who benefit in terms of lifelong learning. I think, for instance, of the work of the Royal College of Music, on whose council I sit, and I declare an interest accordingly. One of the hallmarks of the RCM’s wonderful teaching is the virtuoso master class. Each year 4,500 people attend them, but by making them available online, a much bigger audience can participate. Consider this: in the past three months alone, more than 60,000 people have watched one of those master classes, more than had attended all master classes in person in the previous decade. The RCM is also pioneering an online resource to teach people the basics of music theory. So far, it has delivered more than 200,000 lessons to more than 50,000 students in 50 countries. That is the great egalitarian, inclusive side of the internet—making things possible for those who, a generation ago, could never have dreamt of achieving something such as that.

The media is another area where change has been dramatic, and I declare my interest as director of the Telegraph Media Group. While some suggest that the internet is destroying the media, the truth is the opposite for innovative and enterprising companies because of the new audiences that the web provides. The Telegraph was the first paper to get a website, back in 1994, but at that time its audience was limited to those who read newspapers in the UK. Twenty-five years on, audiences are global, and when people want authoritative news analysis, it is trusted news brands to which they turn. During the London Olympics, the Telegraph website alone attracted a record 408 million page views— 220 million here in the UK and 190 million abroad.

Local newspapers, too, are seeing strong growth in online audiences. Three regional publishers, including the owners of the Scotsman, the Northern Echo and the Manchester Evening News passed 10 million monthly online readers last year, a massive figure, considering the geographical limits on their print circulation. Of course, newspapers still face huge challenges in this age of the internet: protecting copyright, as the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, said; monetising digital content; and adapting business models. Gaining a global audience also means attracting global competition. Such a period of transition is proving to be painful for many in publishing but it is change that is absolutely essential for survival. For those who are succeeding, the internet is taking the UK’s iconic newspaper and magazine titles and turning them into global media brands.

I conclude with this point in praise of the web: with so much content from so many publishers, the vast majority of them individuals, being provided in so many jurisdictions, any attempt to censor the web through legal or statutory regulation is ultimately doomed to failure. This point is vital to any debate about press regulation, which is dear to my heart, but which was, ironically, completely ignored during the Leveson inquiry, which was an analogue inquiry for our digital world. What the web, in all its glorious anarchy, has done is to make any form of statutory press control futile in an online age. As someone who believes passionately in freedom of expression, that is one of many good reasons to say, “Happy anniversary”.

15:27

[Lord Hunt of Chesterton (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to be able to contribute to this welcome debate on the world wide web and the internet, a key aspect of technology and society. More debates on this area will persuade sceptical scientists and technologists to accept that Parliament is relevant. Perhaps the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, will take over Harold Wilson’s position as probably the only, or best known, prominent politician to be identified with technology and society in the past 40 years.

The Met Office, of which I was the chief executive, was one of the first agencies of government to apply the web in its operations. It may surprise noble Lords that in the 1980s the Met Office used not only the radio fax but Morse code. Many of our operators had to learn it; in fact, I learnt it as a boy from my great-aunt. That shows how far we have come. Morse code was then needed to take data from Atlantic weather ships, which, of course, do not exist any more.

In the 1990s, Tim Berners-Lee discussed with the Met Office how weather forecasts, data and research could be helped by the new developments. In fact, he then gave advice to Gordon Brown’s Government about the importance of opening up data. That has been a big change in the past 30 or 40 years. The World Meteorological Organisation’s congress in 1995 established the new approach. The UN has come in for some criticism this afternoon but it has certainly helped in some areas, including openness of data. The great thing now is that with this data, it is possible for users to be informed about alternatives, from weather forecasts to purchases. That will give people more confidence in many senses.

However, as others have commented, there are dangers. The security of the web is a dodgy business—I was swindled last year. Every time I give a credit card to someone, I fear for my life but, obviously, most other people do not. Of course, I do not fear for my life in the restaurant in the House of Lords; I am very confident there.

As the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, commented, new users of the internet are often weakest and poorest, not only in this country but around the world. So the fact that hurricanes and typhoons can be forecast more accurately and then displayed on the web provides enormous assistance and life-saving help to some communities. In Myanmar—Burma to some people—the coastal communities do not have the web, so hundreds of thousands of people died in the hurricane in 2011.

Air pollution is now predicted in many urban areas: it was used in Beijing and used in London. This can be predicted right down to street levels. If you look at the number 73 bus, it will tell you that if you have breathing difficulties, get a message from your doctor and then you get this information. But this information—I have been talking about it and everybody has been talking about it—is essentially one-way information in terms of technical information. Now, however, we have the possibility of people providing information back. There is a fascinating example from Manila, which was able to deal with floods in a way that we could perhaps learn about in the UK. People there have mobile phones and send back information in the form of a colour—yellow, red or green—as to whether the water has reached their ankles, their knees, their thighs or their shoulders. This goes to a central centre, which can see where all the water is travelling in terms of height; it then runs its computer programs hour by hour and tells people whether to get out or to stay put. This is what is called the “web 2.0”—this business of much more feedback between people—and it is part of the new revolution.

15:31

[Lord Rees of Ludlow (CB)]

The noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, deserves our thanks for instigating this debate on what is surely the most transformative innovation of the past decades. I will focus on how the web is impacting just two things: research and education. Web archives, electronic journals, blogs and wikis have levelled the academic playing field globally and have democratised research.

The involvement of amateurs has been traditional in sciences such as botany, but the scope for citizen scientists is now much wider. In my subject of astronomy, for instance, there is so much data that the professionals cannot scrutinise them fully. It is now possible for eagle-eyed amateurs to access archives and themselves discover new planets or galaxies. Likewise, large datasets in genetics, healthcare and environmental science can be accessed anywhere. This openness can promote the progress of science, the understanding of it and trust in it. The web’s benefits to research spread beyond the sciences. For example, amateur scholars are reading and transcribing ships’ log books from the 18th and 19th centuries, unearthing fascinating social history as well as important data for climate scientists.

What about education? Here I fully agree with the noble Lord, Lord Giddens. The web may thankfully have a disruptive and benign effect on some unsatisfactory features of formal education, especially higher education. It will offer access to an ever-growing menu of outstanding courses—star lecturers and teachers will have a global reach. Traditional universities will survive only in so far as their faculties offer mentoring and personal contact with their students.

The Open University model—distance learning supplemented by a network of local tutors and mentors—surely has vastly more potential in the era of the web and smart phone than when it was founded back in the age of black and white TV. We can all freely access wonderful material on the OU’s Openlearn website, much prepared jointly with the BBC. In the United States, two organisations, edX and Coursera, disseminate MOOC courses developed by leading universities. The OU has set up a similar system called FutureLearn. I think all UK universities should seize the opportunity to widen their impact via the web. In particular, they should do this by supporting the Open University and by contributing content to FutureLearn rather than getting locked into one of the American platforms. The OU and the BBC have unrivalled reputations in their sectors. It is surely in this country’s interests that they should set the gold standard for web education and strive for a global reach.

15:34

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

The opening speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, was an inspiring one. I hope it is widely disseminated. The first thing I would like to do is to echo her call on the Government to find a way of recognising the 25th anniversary of Sir Tim Berners-Lee’s invention. This is, after all, the country that invented the industrial revolution, the second one that changed mankind out of all shape following the agricultural revolution 10,000 years ago. Sir Tim Berners-Lee’s step is another giant step on the road for this country and we ought to recognise it as much as other countries do, where you often see public memorials to him even before he is dead, which is quite an achievement. I congratulate him again on that.

My second point is that this moves very fast. I started my blog as a Member of Parliament in the early part of this century. There were just three of us who did it. I then moved it here to the House of Lords under “Lords of the Blog” and it is still going, but I slipped off the edge a bit and I need to reinvent myself. One of the beauties of the world wide web and the internet is that you can actually reinvent yourself. As someone said earlier, you actually can stimulate your own mind in doing so, although I might need the assistance of the noble Lord’s 94 year-old friend to give me a leg up on the situation. I might have to give him a call.

We have talked a lot today about how the web and the internet will change the way everyone works. We do not talk enough about how it will change this place and the way we do politics. The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, touched on that point. We really have not thought that through. I give a simple example: the argument about security and privacy, which came to the fore with the revelations about the interception of messages. The Bill that we passed five or six years ago was out of date technologically before it received Royal Assent. Many of the Acts of Parliament that we enact now are also technologically out of date. We have to find a way for Parliament to modify laws as we move on. We have tended over the years to have a system where we simply added amendments or changes or a new Act every five, 10 or 15 years. The speed of change is so great, however, that on anything involving technology, we get left behind.

My last message is to the political parties. I am no longer involved in drawing up manifestos, thank heavens, but all the parties need to have a very clear statement about science and technology in their manifestos for the next election, particularly on how they are going to approach the privacy and security of the world wide web and the internet. It is profoundly important. There are very exciting possibilities here. We really can change the way we do politics and involve people in the political process much more effectively than we have done in the past. It is not easy to work out how to do this, but we need to respond to how people are thinking about things and how we can create politics out of ideas and movements rather than just carry on with political parties in the older form.

15:37

[Baroness Wheatcroft (Con)]

My Lords, I add my congratulations to the others who have thanked the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, for securing this debate and launching it so comprehensively. It seems impossible to believe that it was only in 1989 when Tim Berners-Lee presented his bosses at CERN with a paper that foreshadowed the web. He got it back with the comment scrolled on the top: “Vague but exciting”. How exciting it turned out to be.

The world wide web has changed lives, generally for the better. It has fuelled revolutions and shrunk the world. I speak as a trustee of the British Museum. The world wide web has made the contents of that museum available to anyone anywhere. There are 3.5 million objects now online and they are visited all the time. The web site traffic grew last year by 47% to 19.5 million visits. Yesterday, the museum celebrated its 255th birthday with a record number of visits, fuelled by a Google doodle.

However, we need to be discriminating. This is no comment on the Lords of the Blog or the noble Lord, Lord Soley, but there is quite a lot of rubbish on the web. One of my favourite cartoons was in the New Yorker and it showed two dogs looking at each other. One says to the other, “Do you blog?” The other says, “I’ve stopped. I’ve just gone back to incessant stupid barking”. There is some wonderful stuff on the web, but there is also a lot of rubbish and policing is never going to work. The net will always be ahead of those who try to police it. Perhaps that is why even some respectable news organisations seem to apply different standards to what they put online to what they put in print.

Wikipedia of course is a wonderful source, but it is not infallible. The users of the web have to learn to discriminate. They have to apply their own judgment. Nevertheless, it is an amazing force for good. It has changed lives for the better, not just by enabling people to shop the world, but to educate themselves and entertain themselves. As the noble Lord, Lord Chadlington, explained to us, it is also a wonderful way for some people, who may be housebound, to combat the loneliness that affects so many.

I have only one question for the Minister. In the internet age, why on earth are we providing free television licences for people, taxed or not taxed, when perhaps we should be offering them subsidised broadband?

15:40

[Lord Stone of Blackheath (Lab)]

My Lords, I should like to talk about the benefits as opposed to the risks that the linking together of people can bring to the UK in different dimensions—not just in huge organisations but in small, not just for the young but for our age, not just for big data but for human stories and not just for global but for local.

In retail, the internet works for big firms but also for small independent businesses such as that of my daughter, Susie Stone, who has a new vibrant couture business in which I declare an interest. The internet is incredibly useful for her and other SMEs. Via social media and networking sites, the global reach of the internet allows such small firms to share ideas, collaborate, promote their work and have success.

It is not just for the young. Ten years ago, customers at N Brown group, most of whom are over the age of 45, bought online 2% of sales. Now it is 58%; over £400 million. Its CEO, Angela Spindler, says that the group is developing relationships through the web making shopping for fashion easier and more enjoyable, regardless of customers’ size and age. Also, very traditional British retail names, such as Burberry and Jaeger, and some that are new but becoming traditional, such as Jigsaw and Paul Smith, can now spread their wings and fly all over the world. “Ah!”, people say. “But what about the high street? It’s being destroyed by online”. Nope. Believe me, even with the growth of these so-called dark stores, the physical marketplace will not disappear. A new Israeli start-up, Appick Shopping, will launch a new internet technology in the high street soon to make shopping more enjoyable. It is coming to London because it knows that we in the UK spread shopping technologies to the world.

The web can be a vehicle for coherence for all beings. Its dangers lie not in the technology, but in whether users act mindfully. It can work in peacemaking, not only globally but locally. In Jerusalem, PICO—People, Ideas, Community, Opportunities—has an exciting new concept in co-working shared space, creating a grassroots change in a complex neighbourhood. It sets out to include both the Arab and Jewish communities in West Jerusalem and will link with a similar set-up in East Jerusalem. The web crosses the physical walls and those of culture and language.

In world health, we use not only big data, but also patients’ personal stories. Healthtalkonline knows that patients and their loved ones need more than just medical facts when facing illness. The site provides real people’s experience shared on digital film to help others understand what it is really like to have an illness. It covers more than 80 illnesses and conditions and gets 3 million unique visits a year.

Oxford University’s research is of such a high standard that it is now working with universities and hospitals in 10 countries, from the Far East to Canada. DIPEx International is now a global charity. Recognising the growing importance of the third sector, the new social innovation commission is bringing together leading experts, entrepreneurs and parliamentarians around the intersection between social enterprise, impact investing and crowd funding to develop this field.

Finally, on health, this Government are part-privatising the health service, which creates fragmentation. We should have a system of whole person care using the world wide web to move in health from fragmentation to integration. By the way, can some techie tell me how it is that other noble Lords in three minutes speak much more slowly than I do and yet seem to say more?

15:45

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

My Lords, the noble Lord may be about to be proved wrong. The noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, was concerned that we would think we were going to receive a masterclass and would be disappointed, but that is indeed what we received. When she asked if I would contribute to this debate, she said it would be good if the youth wing of the House were represented. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Chadlington, showed, this is an invention for all ages and for all time to come.

If the noble Baroness and I have anything in common, it is that we were the last generation of children to go through school without any online resources. We were the last to have our childhood with no online play and no online interaction with other children. This now happens around the world. Today we are debating an empowering invention. There are some areas where we need to consider the dark side, but the rest of my contribution will be about the positives: the platform it is providing for future generations of young people who will be more creative and entrepreneurial and will invent great things that we cannot comprehend today. It will be the platform for our future leaders.

In essence, the world wide web is a means for humans to communicate, celebrate, inspire, amuse, insult and learn. My business card is printed on the last Victorian printing press in Scotland, Robert Smail’s printing works in Innerleithen. Some 150 years ago, that print works promoted passage and communication to Canada and the new world for people wishing to leave Scotland. With this e-mail and web address, people from my own family who moved to Canada can now communicate with me instantaneously through the world wide web. The motive to communicate is the same: it is the mechanism that is different.

A number of years ago, at the National Library of Scotland, I held in my hand the second book to be printed in Scotland; it was printed in 1509. Today, I have it in my pocket, along with Magna Carta, the US declaration of independence, Ann Frank’s diary and a fair few movies produced by the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam. The noble Baroness mentioned Taiwan. I was there as a guest of the Government just after Christmas. We have also heard Sherlock Holmes mentioned in today’s debate. You might think this a slightly incongruous link, but when I was there, using the Taipei-wide wi-fi system that is free to anyone, local resident or tourist, I read the South China Post, which reported that 2.8 million people had watched the new episode of “Sherlock” on their version of YouTube.

It is an exciting, empowering invention—but, as the noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, said, it is also a challenge for this place. If we are to have genuinely open participation and an open democracy, we also need an open Parliament and an online Parliament.

Finally, I mentioned Innerleithen not just to plug my former constituency but because it is about to receive superfast, fibre to the cabinet and fibre to the property broadband of up to 300 megabits per second. The community wanted it and won a competition from BT. They put pressure on the Scottish Government. I hope that we will put pressure on the UK Government to ensure that all parts of the United Kingdom have the right infrastructure to allow us to utilise the invention to the full.

15:48

[Lord St John of Bletso (CB)]

My Lords, I join in thanking my noble friend Lady Lane-Fox for introducing this very topical debate and for her excellent overview of the subject. I declare an interest as a member of the advisory board of Silicon Valley Bank and as someone who has been involved for several years in building and managing data centres.

We now live in a hyperconnected world in which a number of technologies work together to provide a new paradigm for work and private life. The nature of the workplace has dramatically changed, with more and more people working from home in the so-called virtual workplace. With cloud computing, and mobile and work collaboration platforms, this has resulted in anytime, anywhere, on-demand access to information which can only grow. The web has also enabled entrepreneurs, young and old, to build global businesses that from their early stages can reach customers and partners in all parts of the globe. It has huge potential for job creation.

Although there is satisfactory broadband connectivity in most major cities in the United Kingdom, we have a long way to go to provide adequate broadband to rural communities. I share the concerns of most of your Lordships who have spoken about the need for more action to be taken to address the digital divide. I entirely agree with my noble friend Lady Lane-Fox that digital skills need to be embedded. We have moved, in a very short time, from an analogue age to a digital age to an on-demand age—and, now, to an interconnected age. Mobile and cloud are converging to create a new platform that can provide unlimited computer resources, unconstrained by traditional memory, processing and battery life.

It is extraordinary that more than 1 billion people are connecting on Facebook alone on a monthly basis. There is no doubt that media convergence has opened up myriad opportunities, but it has also posed a number of challenges that will need to be constantly monitored and addressed by Ofcom. I agree with my noble friend Lady O’Neill that there will be a need for some form of additional regulation. Although we have all heard of the benefits of the mobile internet, cloud computing and the so-called internet of things, we are increasingly subject to growing security risks, often referred to as botnet threats. There is no doubt that cybersecurity breaches threaten both individual and business data, and business continuity.

Time restricts me from addressing another major concern, the dark web or deep web, which has been used for illicit activity. A lot more focus needs to be placed on controlling the content of the deep web.

In conclusion, although challenges remain with security and privacy concerns, we are in a period of profound and exciting change.

15:51

[Lord Taylor of Warwick (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I add my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, for making this timely debate possible, and for her inspiring speech. The irony is that most of the history of the web is ahead of us. The internet is far from reaching its full potential as an agent of empowerment. The reality is that only 25% of the world’s population currently use the web, and in this year, 7 million adults in the UK have never used it. The noble Baroness emphasised the importance of inclusion, which was part of the vision of Sir Tim Berners-Lee for universal access.

However, there is a group that is excluded from access to the internet by way of government policy. I am not asking the Government to change the policy, but to modify it in relation to some within that group. Its members are part of the digital divide and they are on the wrong side. At present, UK prisoners are excluded from the internet. We imprison more people than any other nation in Europe and our prisons are full to capacity, with more than 85,000 prisoners, but the policy is not working. More than 70% of prisoners reoffend within the first year of release, and major factors concerning reconviction are a lack of education and training, and the inability to gain employment.

For low-security, category D open prisons, I suggest that where prisoners are preparing for release back into the world, the intranet or even the internet under controlled supervision should be made accessible for training, education and researching job opportunities. It should be a privilege to be earned and not a right. Some 74% of UK prison governors surveyed this year by the Prison Reform Trust believed that low-risk prisoners should have secure and controlled access to the internet as part of their release process. Norway and Australia are among the countries leading the way on internet provision in prison, where it has led to decreasing reconviction rates.

The other issue I would like to raise is that of cyberbullying. Some 28% of 11 to 16 year-olds have been targeted, threatened or humiliated by an individual or a group through the use of mobile phones or the internet. For a quarter of the victims, the bullying was ongoing for weeks or months, and there have been high-profile cases where Twitter has been used to intimidate people. I am an admirer of a small charity called the Cybersmile Foundation, which started in 2010. It offers advice to victims. Organisations like Cybersmile and charities like BeatBullying, ChildLine and Kidscape have an important role to play in this. I urge the Government to find ways of working with these charities and to offer them more support.

The growth of the web has revolutionised the UK and the rest of the world, but it has not been a bloodless revolution, because the web has brought with it some difficult challenges. But while humans manage to remain at least one step ahead of computers, I believe that its future can be approached with faith, not fear.

15:55

[The Earl of Erroll (CB)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lady Lane-Fox for this opportunity, and in her honour I prepared for it only at the last minute. I have some interests that are declared in the register, but I also chair EyeHub, which is one of the TSB-funded IoT projects. The internet is very new, and most of us have not been using it for anything like 25 years. We are only just beginning to make a start on the internet of things, to which my noble friend also referred. That will change things, because machines will start reporting what we are doing behind our backs. There are all sorts of implications in that which we have not yet thought about.

In fact, people all over the world are only just beginning to evolve and think about how they will adjust to the implications of the global internet and the consequent cultural clashes that are happening. One of the major ones is how much Governments should be allowed to control their citizens. The whole thing is global, and Governments are losing control because people can work from anywhere. To whom do the taxes belong? We are seeing that debate now.

We will have to rethink entirely how we interface, work with and talk to people. Also, I will just slip in a comment that we still need to meet people face to face. You have to share hospitality with people to know whether you can trust them; you cannot just trust electronic tokens or people whom you have never met, unless they come highly recommended by a friend. That is going to be one of the big issues in the near future.

The other great thing about the internet is that remote communities and communities on the edge of urban conurbations can become global players. You do not have to be situated in the middle of things. However, they need to be able to access the internet properly—and access is a real problem in Britain, despite all the things that the Government are saying. I am afraid that an awful lot of stuff is flying around that is not quite true.

Vast amounts of information are out there, and the problem is that some of it is about you. Much of it is inaccurate and misleading, and it always will be. That is partly because it is easy to fool a machine and partly because it is easy to get things wrong. It is very easy for criminals to fool machines. If I want an alibi, I will lend you my telephone and iPad and get you to establish an alibi for me. We have to be careful about what we think we are actually seeing about people if we are talking about Governments and control.

The point is that it is dangerous to allow the puritans who try to tell us what to do for our own good to have too much control, because life will not be much fun. The other problem is that when they are the Government, they can make you into a non-person, and that may be done on inaccurate information. It has happened to people already, so we have to be very careful about it. I recommend that noble Lords watch a 2008 miniseries called “The Last Enemy”, which can be bought on DVD; it is very interesting.

You cannot regulate or block criminal or unethical practices out of existence—I am afraid that that is true. All we can do is try to arrest the criminals and disincentivise them, and try to disincentivise the big players by modifying their behaviour through cultural pressure. The web may sometimes help with this, but its basic resilient design means that there are always ways to get around the blocks. Like life, the internet will never be completely safe; that would be boring. We love the freedom of being able to hear the cries of the downtrodden, but we are going to have to fight to keep that freedom for ourselves. Our fathers and our grandfathers died for it.

15:51

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank all speakers for their contributions to this debate. They have necessarily had to be short and sparky, but they have also been very informative. I should like to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, for securing this debate in the first place and for her excellent introductory speech, not only for its immediate and relevant content, but for giving us the historic context on the whole question of the web. I also thank her for her other work until recently as the UK’s digital champion.

The noble Lord, Lord Holmes of Richmond, mentioned the need for everyone to have an online presence and indeed he gave us a small glimpse of his own. It is obviously useful to have that. I immediately rushed to my iPad to see what his looked like and I was much impressed by that. I also thought that I had better check out the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, so I looked immediately at her website and discovered that she had already put her speech up on the web. It is here, you can read it now. I think it was done afterwards, because it says,

“This is a speech I made in the House of Lords”,

and not “This is a speech I am about to make”. We are in the middle of a revolution both of our thinking and of our operations.

The noble Baroness ended by asking us: what kind of web do we want? That echoes what I was doing in researching for this debate by thinking about what people thought about the web. The best description that I came across was that the world wide web is humanity connected by technology—humanity, not just people. That is something that I will come back to.

There are those who would argue, and there is some merit in this argument, that the web is just another technology, although of course it is very exciting, different and distinctive in the way that it is applied. I suppose, like any other technology, the web can be whatever we make it; we can shape it and mould it. Most importantly, we need to keep in mind that we can use it to do something that I do not think any other technology has ever done, which is to connect every single person on earth—every single person. The web gives people the ability as users and contributors to improve their lives and communities or, in other words, to create humanity.

As we have heard, there are some 2 billion people currently on the web, mostly in the West and the developed nations but, as the internet becomes more connectable and more available through mobile, that will grow to an estimated 5 billion by 2020. That means huge opportunities and challenges, but it also means huge changes in the way in which we approach and think about the world.

Is the web just another technology? It seems to me that the things that it does that other technologies have not done are important, and we need to think about how we approach and engage with that technology. It does something to time. Whereas before we always had some time to reflect on an activity, people now report on and read about events as they occur. You get instant pictures and information. What happened to reflection?

The world wide web also localises. That seems like a contradiction in terms, but the way in which the web is organised so that any community can find a way of sharing information relevant to their interests and to their members and fellow citizens is an important aspect of what it does. At the same time, it is also universal, in that you have access anywhere in the world where you can get a connection—although that is not always possible, even in Britain.

The web also has a different way of focusing things. We have millions of communities, we all have multiple identities and those identities can be reflected on the web though our languages, our hobbies and our different natures. It allows those with shared interests to exchange resources in a way that has not been possible before. That is helped, of course, by search engines. Information has always existed; it has always been in repositories and difficult to access but now it is available. It is of variable quality, as we have heard, but it certainly is there if you can find it.

The web also provides links, both in real time and in a parallel way, across things. Many noble Lords will understand that if they have young children or grandchildren. My children seem to enjoy in a relaxing moment—although they say that they are working—lying on a sofa together, the three of them, interacting through texting and e-mailing while watching television and possibly reading something on their iPads. I cannot do that, but then multitasking has never been one of my strengths.

In that way, we are engaging by voicing opinions and raising issues in a way that has not been possible before. It is inexpensive, it is free—or virtually free—it is immediate and, if well looked after, it is durable. We have engagement and a chance to get involved in things that we would not otherwise have done. We also have the chance to raise opinions and, as people have said, to make a better fist of democracy, or participatory democracy, than has perhaps been possible before.

So there are huge opportunities but, of course, as many people have said, big challenges. There are, within those challenges, very substantial ethical ones. It will be interesting to listen to the Minister respond, if he can, to some of the very difficult questions raised by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill, and her ethical concerns about some of the issues about the web.

The good news is that the UK seems to have embraced the new technology in a terrific way. We have made economic use of the web and we buy and sell more goods online than any other country. I am not quite so sure about the fact that we have the highest number of Twitter users on the planet. I suspect, and have always thought, that this is largely due to my noble friend Lord Knight—he certainly confirmed in his speech that he has played a major part in that growth.

There are of course other important things, such as MOOCs, which we heard about. We heard how the Open University is developing this new technology, about the sort of digital services that we know are possible through the web and about the way in which an open government system can support these things.

Against that, we also hear that only 30% of small businesses are online, that there are alarming difficulties in getting access for the older parts of our population and that skills shortages are significant. We are also very worried about rural coverage. I read one statistic in my research which suggests that fewer than 0.5% of students choose computer science at A-level. That surely needs to go up, particularly for girls, for whom the figure is a fifth of that.

What comes next? The interesting thing is that most of the history of the web is ahead of us: it is a very young technology and very far from reaching its full potential as an agent of empowerment for everyone in the world. Web access for, perhaps, 4 billion or 5 billion people is an incredible opportunity, and new technologies will enable billions of people who are currently excluded to join in.

However, there are some big questions, such as access and skills, which I have mentioned. There is also a need for a change in the whole way in which we do business from physical interaction, although that will still be important, to one-click shopping. That is, of course, related to things such as transport and logistics—the physical movement of goods. How different it is now watching downloaded films compared to going to a cinema, particularly when you think about the change from reels of film to the way they are now broadcast or available on DVD. I have a particular concern about archiving material on the web. I am not sure that we are up to speed on that and wonder whether the noble Lord might respond to that, particularly about e-mails in government.

There are also points about privacy, which were well made initially by the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, in relation to children and also by the noble Lord, Lord Birt. We need to address some of the concerns that we have about the “dark side” of the web, as it has been called. The Prism and Snowden cases raise big questions. Perhaps most worrying for me, and an issue raised by other noble Lords, is what comes next in this area rather than what has already happened.

Other noble Lords raised questions that we also have to address, including those relating to intellectual property and whether that is up to date for the digital age. I suspect it is not. It needs much deeper and more effective work to get us ready for what is going to happen there. There is also the question about how we relate to the data that are stored about us. We need a mature conversation about that. As one noble Lord said, we are quite happy to give up considerable details about our personal data, including our credit card details, to commercial operators but we quibble about how much data government holds. That is very silly: we need to get this right and get the balance right. It may well be, as has been said, that we need champions—somebody who looks after information—but we cannot go on living in a parallel world on this.

The world wide web is a technology, but what it does and what it can achieve is really up to us, the users. Like all new technologies, the internet is often blamed for many of the problems in society. This is not the first time. One thinks of Shakespeare’s Globe and why it was situated outside the city, the penny dreadfuls in Victorian times and video nasties. These things are always blamed for society’s ills, but they are a feature of human endeavour and not of the technology itself. The Government have to come up with policies, although sometimes—including, I suggest, in this area—not doing something is almost as important as legislating. Particularly in relation to privacy and other issues, it should always be remembered that one person’s filter is another person’s censorship.

The noble Lord, Lord Kirkwood, made some good points about the things we can do in our own House. My suggestion would be voting electronically: why do we have to troop through the Lobbies every time a vote comes, as we do currently? Surely we can do something differently with that. The noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, had a good idea, modelled on the Tobin tax, of raising funds for good purposes, which is something we should think about. It is probably too late but it is a good idea. We need to go back to the essential issues about inclusion, openness and transformational thinking about how we operate commercially and personally in a digital world, and how to promote humanity connected by technology—

[Lord Hunt of Chesterton]

We meet each other in the Division Lobby. If we do not and we all start to press buttons, are we saying that that is progress? One of the themes of today is that we have to balance humanity with technology. That seems to be balancing technology with technology.

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara]

That was too complicated for me. I am at the end of my peroration. I will see you later.

My conclusion is that the question for the Government is how to promote humanity connected by technology.

16:09

[Lord Bates (Con)]

On that last point from the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, we all look across at the Whips, who, above all, enjoy the human-to-human contact in the Division Lobbies as Members come in.

For this debate, I read Twitter this morning and saw some entries by the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, expressing some apprehension about addressing your Lordships’ House. I think we can agree that it was a truly inspiring and insightful speech, and masterful in how she set out the debate’s context and some of the issues that we need to address. I join the noble Lord, Lord Giddens, and many others in saying that she is an outstanding addition to your Lordships’ House. I do not know whether my noble friend Lord Kirkwood has yet secured the noble Baroness’s membership on his Information Committee, but if not I am sure that an invitation will be on its way.

I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, for her time as the Government’s digital champion and the tremendous work that she did to narrow the digital divide, and extend and set the framework for government policy on broadening access. Many people have talked about how the world wide web has transformed the way in which we do business, and how our society and the economy operate. A number of Members talked about how it is transforming this place. The idea of regular debates, whether annual or virtual and ongoing, seems appropriate. The cross-party nature of this discussion shows that the world wide web is a bigger phenomenon than any narrow political party or country can control. That is a point to which I will return.

I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Soley, for creating that entity, the Lords of the Blog. This morning I noticed that my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth had posted interesting data there about the number of hard-copy letters that were received by your Lordships’ House. In 2005, the figure was 4.7 million. In 2013, that had fallen to 2.4 million. This again reflects the changing way in which we interact with those whose interests we seek to represent.

Many Members have articulated in this debate that no technological change has advanced our world as much as the world wide web. It is hard to believe that it was only 25 years ago that Sir Tim Berners-Lee wrote the first protocols that created the web. The principles of inclusion, freedom, transparency and openness that he included, and that have been referred to by many Members, are still at the heart of the Government’s view of how the world wide web should operate.

When my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones referred to the opening ceremony for the 2012 London Olympic and Paralympic Games, I recalled the scrolling message going around the stadium, “This is for everyone”. The fact that this was viewed live by an audience of around a billion and has been viewed by many more online is an important thing, and we must keeping coming back to it. Many noble Lords spoke about the potential that this vast creation has for enabling two-way traffic, not just to push but bring in the thoughts of people. The noble Lord, Lord Rees, spoke of research that is taking place online. My noble friend Lady Wheatcroft spoke of the British Museum and its online exhibits. I think that we were all moved this week to see the 1.5 million pages of World War One diaries that were placed online—an example of how, when we go online, we are invited not just to view but to participate in archiving and contributing to material, and certainly to engage with it.

The noble Lords, Lord Mitchell and Lord Stone, were among many who referred to the UK being at the forefront of connectivity and consumers engaging with online enthusiasm, and the implications of that for the high street. The noble Lord, Lord Mitchell, made the point powerfully that many people see that as a threat to the high street but actually it is something that ought to be celebrated and, for those on the high street who embrace it, it can have a dynamic effect on their businesses.

My noble friend Lord Black referred to the impact the internet is having in a very similar context on the media, creating global brands. Of course, I was particularly pleased to hear, in addition to the Daily Telegraph online, his reference to the Northern Echo being at the forefront of this activity, which was very welcome indeed.

Seventy-two per cent of business premises have subscribed to broadband and 14% of premises now have a superfast broadband service. This last figure is higher than any of the other five major EU countries, which is something we can be pleased about. Last year, AT Kearney estimated that the internet economy ecosystem was worth £82 billion a year in the UK, which is 5.7% of GDP. This is because the web enhances speed, efficiency and productivity.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, referred to the development of this technology as “warp speed”, which appealed enormously to me, as a Trekkie, but this does not come without its challenges. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, among others, referred to the importance of intellectual property rights, which I will come back to.

According to the Digital Efficiency Report of 2011, the cost of an online transaction is 20 times lower than a phone one, 30 times lower than a postal one and 50 times lower than face to face, although I accept the point made by several Members that human interaction is key, a point that the noble Earl, Lord Erroll, made so powerfully. During this Parliament, the Government will save £1.2 billion by going digital and £1.8 billion year-on-year from making government services digital by default, which I know was an aspiration of the noble Baroness.

As well as the economic issues, we have also had outlined for us the philosophical, almost theological issues, most notably by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby, the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, and the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, who spoke of the information overload—the scope of what we have. The picture of holding the world in the palm of your hand was very powerful. I was able to scroll up on my—I do not think I am allowed to say the brand—personal internet device and find that line from TS Eliot, when he bewails in “The Rock”:

“Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?”.

Placing things in context, understanding wisdom, is something that we all have to be aware of, not least the Government.

Using the web may be second nature to many but for some there are still considerable challenges to going online, despite the optimistic anecdote that my noble friend Lord Chadlington told of his friend with whom he is now connected on LinkedIn. Many figures have been quoted today but recent BBC survey data show that some 11 million people—18% of the population—are not online. Given the progress and the importance of it, that is a very worrying figure. I will outline some of the things that Her Majesty’s Government are doing to try to address the issue.

One challenge is making the necessary improvements to the underlying infrastructure. That is well under way, with £1 billion of government investment by 2015 or very soon after. I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, was able to report that superfast broadband had arrived in his part of the country.

By 2015, or very soon after, virtually all premises will have a good standard of broadband, with 90% of businesses being able to access superfast broadband. Broadband and superfast broadband, and indeed the world wide web, bring not only purely economic benefits but other benefits. We heard powerfully and insightfully from the noble Lord, Lord Crisp, on healthcare and how the future might take shape with people increasingly accessing their health services via the internet. I was intrigued and looked up the programme Beating the Blues, initially a little worried that this might be a partisan point, but I now recognise that it is a helpful programme. I am sure that we will avail ourselves of this many times in your Lordships’ House.

My noble friend Lord Holmes, as well as giving his own side a good plug, spoke very well about how having a presence on the internet is just part of normal human life. It is important that we increase the access of as many people as possible, which is why I am delighted to report that yesterday, my right honourable friend the Culture Secretary, Maria Miller, announced a £10 million fund for alternative technology providers with innovative ideas about how to help superfast broadband reach Britain’s most remote communities. That is something that will be very important.

The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, spoke of the importance of the internet, which may not yet be able to make the weather but can certainly forecast it, and how that not only has a curiosity interest but can, in very real terms, save lives and save property.

I turn to some of the specific points that were raised in relation to the governance of the web. The noble Viscount, Lord Colville, mentioned this, and asked what the position of Her Majesty’s Government was in relation to control of the internet. It is very clear that this Government favour a self-regulatory approach to the internet, engaging with all relevant stakeholders. We champion a process and model whereby Governments work with industry, civil society and technical communities on an equal footing to ensure the internet is managed effectively. This point was communicated by the Minister responsible for this, Ed Vaizey, at the international global forum on the internet in Bali last year.

Digital inclusion, of course, is wider than just access. Inclusion is about encouraging and supporting individuals, small businesses and charities that are not online, to develop their digital skills and build the confidence to go online independently. I realise that many charitable organisations are doing this. I also pay tribute, in this context, to Go On UK, which is the charity that the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, chairs. It does a tremendous amount. I know this from my home town of Gateshead, where there has been some great work going on, as there has in Liverpool with Race Online, where some really innovative initiatives are happening within the charitable sector to engage people and get them equipped with the skills necessary to go online.

The noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Warwick, raised an interesting point, which I do not dismiss, although of course it raises challenges. He talked about extending internet access to those in prison. That is something which I will certainly relay back. It seems to me that, at a minimum, where there are many good charities that are working with ex-offenders as they immediately come out, equipping people with internet and digital skills ought to be very much at the heart of that, helping to narrow the digital divide.

In that context, my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft raised the innovative idea of moving from subsidising TV licences to subsidising broadband. I can inform my noble friend that the Government continue to work with the internet service providers on low-cost tariffs. The digital deals sponsored by the Department for Communities and Local Government and the Department for Work and Pensions, and supported by the charity of the noble Lord, Lord Knight, the Tinder Foundation, are a prime example of how the Government are helping to provide low-cost broadband, but again we accept that much more needs to be done.

The noble Lord, Lord Soley, asked what steps Her Majesty’s Government are taking to mark the tremendous achievement of Sir Tim Berners-Lee in creating this innovation that we are celebrating and marking today. I am pleased to say, not in any small way due to the timeliness of this debate, that the Department for Culture, Media and Sport has been in contact with Sir Tim Berners-Lee’s office about discussing a fitting way to mark this remarkable anniversary. The Minister responsible, Ed Vaizey, has specifically asked for an opportunity to meet the noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox, to discuss ideas that she may have. I know that they are both following our debate today very closely.

Many noble Lords mentioned the value of the internet to education. The noble Lord, Lord Giddens, referred to MOOCs and online communities, and my noble friend Lord Black referred to the master classes that are available online. Education is obviously a key area that will benefit from this, but I suspect that, as the noble Lord, Lord Giddens, said, we should not anticipate too much of a change. There will be elements of back to the future about it where the interaction between student and tutor will be central.

The likes of Tech City, as well as the plethora of tech hubs around the country, have been essential in fostering the right environment to build momentum. We are reducing red tape to help entrepreneurs, a point which the noble Lord, Lord St John, raised, and ensure that we have many more UK success stories such as lastminute.com. We believe we have the right foundations in place to bring that about.

In order for that to happen—I am conscious of time—we are aware that the issue of intellectual property, which was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, my noble friends Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Lucas, and others, is important. There are 1.68 million people employed in the creative industries and the technology sector. In 2012, it contributed £71.4 billion to the economy, a growth of 10%, so I totally take the point about people taking things off the shelves without paying for them, as my noble friend Lord Lucas described it. The Government are fully behind industry efforts to introduce a voluntary copyright alert programme which should be quicker, more flexible and cheaper than the Digital Economy Act, which the noble Lord, Lord Soley, rightly identified as probably being out of date before it came on to the statute book, presenting some of the challenges we have.

The noble Baronesses, Lady O’Neill and Lady Kidron, spoke very movingly about the challenges, particularly for young people. I draw noble Lords’ attention to the speech made by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister last year on internet child safety. It is an issue that we are taking very seriously indeed. It is important to make children aware of the risks they face. That is why, as well as placing restrictions on internet providers, we need to make sure that children and young people are educated about the dangers so that when they go into this community they do so safely. There are some specific issues that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, raised in this context about privacy and the archiving of e-mails by government. I will come back to the noble Lord, if I may, on that. The noble Lord, Lord Young, also spoke about issues of child internet safety. The noble Lord, Lord Birt, reminded us of that with the good phrase that the internet—the world wide web—provides us with worries and wonders. I am sure that every parent would echo that view, but the potential and the benefits vastly outweigh the disadvantages, as so many people have said. Many examples were given. The noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, mentioned a million teachers going online to share lesson plans. That is innovative and very welcome indeed.

We must get the framework right. It is right that all stakeholders—Governments, civil society, the private sector and the technical community—are involved in how best to ensure the internet operates effectively and efficiently. We believe that this current multi-stakeholder approach is the right one. It will ensure that we have the right data protection framework in place and the right intellectual property.

In conclusion, I fully support the noble Baroness’s Motion and urge the House to take note of the tremendous impact that the world wide web has had in its 25 short years. It was British ingenuity and innovation that brought it about. The web shows that Britain is great—open, innovative and creative—and we should all take inspiration from Sir Tim Berners-Lee’s invention. We should rightly be proud of this, celebrate it and build on it. There are many issues and it is traditional for Members responding from the government side to say that they will write to noble Lords and place a copy in the Library. It is probably appropriate that I e-mail noble Lords and place a copy on the web.

16:30

[Baroness Lane-Fox of Soho]

I thank the Minister for his answers. I am delighted that we have had the first debate on the world wide web here in the Chamber. It is perhaps one small step for mankind and one bigger leap for the House of Lords. If I was going to organise a birthday party, I think I would engineer the presence of an astronomer, a writer, a philosopher, a composer, some film directors and maybe, dare I say, even a politician or two. I would argue that it has been a very successful birthday party for the world wide web; I thank all noble Lords for their contributions and look forward to many more high-quality debates about the future of our technology landscape.

Motion agreed.

China: Air Defence Identification Zone

Thursday 16th January 2014 Lords Chamber

Question for Short Debate

16:31

Asked by

[Lord Moynihan]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of China’s introduction of an Air Defence Identification Zone over the East China Sea, and of heightened tensions in the wider Pacific Rim.

[Lord Moynihan (Con)]

My Lords, I am very glad to have the opportunity to raise this important topic. There is no doubt that China shocked both its neighbours and the international community when, last November, it announced its highly controversial decision to create an ADIZ beyond its territorial airspace in the skies above the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands in the East China Sea. Those shock-waves are still reverberating around the region and beyond, and I believe it is essential for British interests that we adopt a clear position when assessing the significance of China’s abrupt unilateral action. In particular, China promised emergency defence measures in the case of non-compliance and an intent to establish more of these zones in the future.

In this latest escalation, Beijing insists that the ADIZ was drawn with no specific country in mind, but it seems highly likely that it was intended as a rebuke to the Japanese Government for their private purchase of three of the islands in September 2012—a move that gave rise to anti-Japan protests across China and caused concern among Japan’s allies. Since then, Chinese coastguard vessels have repeatedly asserted an operational presence in the territorial seas around the islands, raising the spectre of a new Sino-Japanese conflict and sparking fears of tit-for-tat retaliatory measures spreading volatility and uncertainty across the region.

Of course, ADIZs are hardly uncommon in the region and have been used to political ends in the past, but no other country in the region extends its ADIZ to cover disputed territory that it does not control. Following the announcement, the United States expressed its “deep concern”, as did the EU. Does the Minister agree that incorporating the skies over the Senkaku/ Diaoyu islands within its alert zone is, at best, a significant misjudgment on China’s part and that, beyond the present war of words, it will increase the likelihood of further escalation, creating fertile conditions for a serious incident in the region as a result?

This particular dispute in the East China Sea has attracted much attention because of the potential for war between the region’s biggest economies. However, as this House well knows, the resource-rich South China Sea is the subject of a number of equally contentious territorial disputes between China and its neighbours, particularly the Philippines and Vietnam. Worryingly, clashes in the South and East China Seas have risen significantly over the past two years, with Japan, the Philippines and Vietnam all accusing China of a more aggressive posture over disputed territories and waters.

It would cause international outrage if China were to create an ADIZ over the whole South China Sea, but this has not stopped Beijing from choosing to provoke its neighbours, most particularly in its decision to use an image of the highly controversial “nine-dash line” in Chinese passports in 2012. A Chinese ADIZ in the north of the South China Sea would be particularly sensitive, especially if it overlapped with Vietnam’s ADIZ and included the disputed Paracel Islands.

Of course, we cannot debate this issue without reference to British interests in the region. The region’s economic vitality, its influence and its ever-increasing importance are without doubt and its dynamism fuels the global economy. Last year, ahead of a visit there, the Foreign Office Minister, Hugo Swire, in a candid and important statement, rightly called Japan,

“our closest partner in Asia”.

He said:

“Whether it is global trade or international peacekeeping our relationship with Japan is fundamental to UK foreign policy, not just in Asia but around the world”.

Our close ties and mutual interests with Japan are particularly articulated through our long record of working together to maintain Asia-Pacific regional stability, as well as in a host of other global security issues, from reconstruction in Afghanistan and counterproliferation in Iran to cyberdefence. It is equally important that we work together with China to improve international stability and security, to increase mutual prosperity and to support China’s process of modernisation and reform.

From the Sino-Japanese wars and the occupation of Manchuria, the relationships in the region are deep, complex and historically multilayered. The China-Japan relationship is at the very core of this inextricable enmeshing of old rivalries, wars, antagonism and competition. Memories of Japan’s early 20th century empire-building are still raw within the region—thus the Chinese reaction to Prime Minister Abe’s recent visit to the Yasukuni shrine. China’s past empire, too, is surely heavy and emotive historical baggage for today’s Chinese leaders to carry as they contemplate the future regional hierarchy.

Beijing has argued that its latest move is no more than legitimate defence. However, the Chinese concept of defence is notoriously broad. Officially, all Chinese security policies and uses of force since 1949 have been defensive, this being the most recent case of China defending Chinese territory. However, in recent years in particular, Beijing has seemed unwilling to recognise that, in the eyes of its neighbours, Chinese defence might appear indistinguishable from Chinese aggression.

It is, of course, the law of unintended consequences that we fear: stoking simmering tensions and raising the temperature for short-term political gain can be the touch-paper for conflagrations that quickly get out of control. This is a real flashpoint—not because any country necessarily individually wants to start a shooting war, but because accidents happen.

This is all happening at a time when the security balance of the region is changing. The present poor state of relations between Japan and China is certainly a catalyst for that change, if not a cause. In the face of sharp criticism from China, Japan is increasingly moving away from its post-war pacifist stance. Last month, Prime Minister Shinzo Abe approved a new five-year defence spending plan that calls for the acquisition of drones, jet fighters, destroyers and amphibious assault vehicles to bolster the nation’s armed forces. Prime Minister Abe described the spending plan as “proactive pacifism”, but—significantly, given Japan’s traditionally pacifist public—with a substantial measure of popular support, it continues a trend of reversing a decade of military cuts to counter China’s rapid military build-up and the relative decline of American influence. Although the US still provides the basis for Japan’s national security, under the new draft strategy, Japan will,

“build a comprehensive defensive posture that can completely defend our nation”.

That is an important declaration of intent.

Much of the new spending will go towards strengthening Japan’s ability to monitor and defend the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands among others, and will include more early-warning aircraft stationed in Okinawa and the purchase of unarmed surveillance drones. China’s efforts to pursue a more proactive diplomacy with its neighbours, in quiet rejection of Deng Xiaoping’s famous low-key approach to foreign affairs, saw Beijing hold a major conference on peripheral diplomacy last September. Ironically, it was at this conference, intended to demonstrate the leadership’s wish to promote a stable regional environment for China’s future development, that final approval was reportedly given to the long-held objective of establishing the East China Sea ADIZ and reinforcing China’s claim to disputed maritime territories.

The question remains: what can and should the UK do? With the public mood in both Japan and China being one of renewed nationalism and self-assertion, how can a period of political quiet and trust between China and Japan be engendered, prior to the resumption of high-level discussions on confidence-building measures? Will confidence-building measures be enough?

As noble Lords are well aware, two days after the Chinese ADIZ announcement, the US Administration flew B52 bombers over the disputed islands without alerting China, in what can only be described as a warning to Beijing. The key dynamic is clearly the relationship with America. For the US in particular, it will be a fine balance to urge restraint by all parties and diffuse these looming confrontations on the one hand, while robustly reaffirming its security commitment to Japan.

It remains to be seen what tangible support Britain might be able to bring to bear in future and what, if anything, we—or, indeed, Europe—could do practically in terms of hard power to shape or respond to the present situation in East Asia, should the need arise. We can and should use our very effective diplomacy and soft power to act as an influence multiplier in support of stability and to help to build a capable regional, multilateral security structure that would encompass a workable code of conduct to avoid a new round of ADIZs announced in the South China Sea. But what comes next, if confidence-building mechanisms such as hotlines, agreements on incidents at sea and mid- and high-level diplomacy do not prove sufficient?

My remarks today would not be complete without some thoughts on where this competition for influence will end. This is about the whole shift of economic and political power and influence to Asia. It seems to me that the tectonic plates of geopolitics are shifting and that the rearrangement of the post-war settlement in the wider Pacific Rim ultimately lies ahead of us. As we know, China is rapidly and profoundly changing. China’s rise inevitably challenges the current system, built by Western states and reflecting their interests and rules-based values.

The issue of the Chinese ADIZ, while pressing, is a jigsaw puzzle piece in a much bigger picture. With China’s rise, the dynamics of the region are changing, and it remains to be seen who will win and who will lose in this global shift of power and influence in the Asia-Pacific region. Will we see a change from a US-led regional security system to a Chinese-led one, and who will decide? The extent to which countries in the region continue to want an American counterweight to the rise of their mighty neighbour and the extent to which the US will continue to provide is key.

We have heard a great deal about Mr Obama’s rebalancing to Asia, to extricate the US from more than a decade of war in the greater Middle East and to pivot America’s strategic focus and resources towards Asia and the Pacific Rim, and about the highly complex relationships with China and key US allies there. For the United States, China has become, if not the key, certainly a key bilateral relationship.

In conclusion, within its region China remains a solitary rising power, facing potentially insurmountable domestic challenges and currently encircled by US military bases and allies. There is still a major risk of mutual misunderstanding, miscalculation and strategic non-comprehension between China and the United States, and it seems clear that our policy should be to help diffuse that trust deficit when we can. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s thoughts on whether she believes that is a sensible way forward and on how we in the UK can help realise it for the future peace, security and prosperity not just of the region but of the world.

16:42

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (LD)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Moynihan on securing this debate. I am afraid that he pipped me to the post, as I very much wanted to initiate a debate on the same subject. My noble friend said a great deal in his brief speech and I will not repeat many of the points. However, there are two or three that I want to emphasise.

In the year when we remember the centenary of the Great War it is important to reflect that it is issues that are unforeseen that have the ability to impact on our own preoccupations and interests, however far off they may seem. My noble friend has laid out the background and history of the current stand-off, but there are two or three things I want to draw out in my intervention.

While the introduction by China of an air defence identification zone in the East China Sea is not of itself remarkable—one should acknowledge that several of the neighbouring countries in the region have one—what is notable is China’s timing and the content and nature of its announcement. Japan’s own air defence identification zone was announced well ahead of implementation and as part of a transparent process with consultation. China did so without any of those criteria in place beforehand. Moreover, requiring aircraft whose destination is not Chinese territory to comply with its requirements is out of the ordinary. It is provocative in that it covers territory that is internationally recognised as being controlled by a foreign power—in this case, Japan.

One of the things we are learning about the new and rising China is that the art of diplomacy is not its forte on this matter. Let us hope that rational geostrategic calculation is. I read with interest the Foreign Secretary’s response to these heightened tensions between China and Japan over the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands in the other place only a few weeks ago. His view was that the UK saw it as a regional issue to be resolved regionally. While the UK itself may not wish to comment on the dispute publicly, it undoubtedly has a stake in what happens there. China is a United Nations permanent five member. Another of our fellow P5 members and a United Kingdom ally—the United States—has a security treaty with Japan, among other east Asian countries. A rising of tensions between China and Japan cannot affect us as mere bystanders, and I know will be a subject of great concern in government and beyond.

In assessing the provocations and counterprovocations that have taken place between China and its neighbours recently, one has to note a fundamental difference. Japan is a democracy. As such, it cannot control all the actions of its citizens in a way that China can and does. China appears to have been prompted to set up the air defence identification zone in this manner as a retaliatory step aimed at the 2012 decision by the Japanese Government to buy three Senkaku/Diaoyu islands from their private owner. Japan, faced with a situation where a right-wing nationalist, Mr Ishihara, the former mayor of Tokyo, was threatening to purchase the islands, chose to take greater control over events by buying them for the state. A reasonable interpretation one can put on this action by the state was that it was acting to prevent escalation of the situation by a nationalist, but nevertheless elected, politician.

This is not to say that the Japanese Government themselves do not provoke. The visit by the Prime Minister to the Yasukuni shrine last month, particularly, it seems, calculated to insult China and South Korea, was misjudged, as the noble Lord said. However much we may wish that the Japanese Government did not set out to be insensitive, ultimately we have to accept that it is for the people of Japan to pass judgment on their leaders’ decisions—a luxury not afforded to Chinese citizens. Thus it is somewhat easier to comprehend Japanese actions than it is Chinese.

Turning to the implications of the air defence identification zone, I have to agree with RUSI’s assessment that China’s motives there are probably to establish a quasi legal basis for boosting its sovereignty claims to the Senkaku. Changing the facts on the ground, as the Israelis famously demonstrate, or, in this case, the “lines on the map”, to underpin its long-term claims, can result in success. However, if China sought to test the US “Pacific pivot”, then the immediate deployment of B-52 bombers to fly through the ADIZ must have answered its question.

Another long-term effect of this sudden expansion of Chinese power is the change in Japan’s calculations in its own geostrategic imperatives. One cannot see it as accidental that Japan announced its first ever national security strategy just weeks after the declaration by China of its ADIZ in the East China Sea. The strategy, with its stated aim to make a more “proactive contribution to peace”, refers generally to more complex and grave national security challenges that Japan faces, but also comments specifically on China’s attempts to change the status quo through coercion. So we will have a five-year military build-up on Japan’s part. More destroyers, more submarines and more F-15s might all be seen as a positive contribution to its security and may, indeed, be welcome in Washington, facing its own budget cuts, as one American ally starts shouldering a greater part of its defence burden, but it surely should not be seen as comfortable in China. An arms race is seldom an end in itself, as history has taught us.

Some noble Lords might have seen “Newsnight” a few days ago on the vexed issue of these islands. We had the spectacle of Jeremy Paxman interviewing the Japanese ambassador for a few minutes, then walking eight whole steps across the studio floor to sit in another chair and interview the Chinese ambassador about the same issue. The questions overlapped. Why blame one another? Why not go to international arbitration over the islands? Why not solve it multilaterally? Are you trying to solve it bilaterally? The question we viewers were asking each other was: if two senior diplomats could not even sit in the same group of chairs in a television studio, how on earth can any sensible solution be found to this matter?

The United Kingdom is often criticised over its dispute in the Falkland Islands, particularly as it is a United Nations Security Council member. However, the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands dispute is not analogous. We may hold a referendum but there are no people to vote on these uninhabited bits of rock. It is, therefore, sad to see that China, while rightfully wanting us to respect its proud imperial past, its ancient culture and its breathtaking advancement now, cannot submit, as a great power, to international arbitration so that a resolution to its disputes with its neighbours might be found. One can only hope that it will be able to do so in time. Meanwhile we must all hope that restraint will be the path that both China and her neighbours will choose.

16:50

[Lord Wilson of Tillyorn (CB)]

My Lords, it is very useful that the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, has drawn attention to this issue, including all the complexities that lie behind it and all the dangers that may lie ahead. In a timed debate in your Lordships’ House, it is rather strange to find oneself allocated a longish period of time in which to speak and, with permission, I hope not to use all that time. Perhaps I may use this issue to draw out some rather broader lessons. The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, referred to all the disputes that have occurred over many years in the East China Sea and the South China Sea, particularly the latter with, for years, Chinese maps drawing a line right round the outer edges of the South China Sea, so creating disputed territory with Vietnam, with the Philippines, with Malaysia and in a very small way with Burma.

A striking point about that long period of dispute is that, despite clashes and indeed some loss of life, there have been no major conflicts. Many years ago, noble Lords may remember that there was a very acute dispute over two islands just off the coast of mainland China: Quemoy or Kinmen and Matsu. They may also remember that, for some 20 years after the crisis had passed, there was a tacit agreement between the two sides that shells, most of which contained propaganda leaflets, would be fired only on odd days of the week, and on even days of the week no shells would be fired and they could carry out their agricultural activities. The key to that was that it was a play, a Peking opera, in which everyone knew the script, and that avoided the danger.

Much more recently we have had the phenomenon of China’s growing military and naval power. I suggest that some of that is going in a helpful direction. I cite the Chinese involvement in the Gulf of Aden, which is a very interesting development in the anti-piracy campaigns off the coast of Somaliland, or China’s involvement with the United Nations peacekeeping operations, or humanitarian assistance. All of that has been very valuable. However, it is difficult to try to incorporate that into the existing world order.

It is very clear, as mentioned by both noble Lords who have spoken, that China is now a very rapidly growing economic power—indeed, far more rapidly growing economically than militarily. As the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, said, a shifting of the tectonic plates is going on and there is nothing more dangerous in history than a shifting of the plates, when an unsatisfied power or a power that feels that is has lost out over the past hundred years reasserts itself and comes into conflict with the then existing world order. Many of the arrangements in the existing world order, of course, pre-date the time when China re-emerged onto the international stage. It was a time when China was inward looking. It may be that we need to be aware of this, and sometimes make adjustments in these international arrangements, to incorporate the present power of China and encourage it to play a major but, if possible, benevolent role in world affairs. That may require a hard effort.

I mentioned Quemoy and Matsu, and the almost “Peking opera” arrangement whereby you fired on one day but not the next. The danger is that now people will not necessarily know the script. They did then, but if they do not know it now, the dangers are very great. It is therefore important for us to build up the interrelationships we have with China in strategic and military affairs, both diplomatically and between armed forces. Of course, it is the Americans who will play the major part in that, but we, too, can play a role, and I hope we will hear from the Minister that we are playing a role in that area, which will be an important element in how future crises are handled.

For ourselves, we cannot pretend that we are major players. The United States is the major player and will go on being the major player. Equally, we cannot shut our eyes to what is happening and to the potential dangers. What we can do—again, I hope that the Minister can confirm what we are doing—is build up our connections with China. I am thinking not just of commercial connections but of the way in which young people go for education from China to here—and, equally, from here to China. Thus can long-term relationships be built. I am also thinking of the building up of things such as the Chinese legal system, which that country is working hard on and with which we can help in various ways.

In ways such as those, although we may not be one of the major players, we can sensibly help prevent relatively small disputes developing into serious and dangerous conflicts.

16:57

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I am very grateful indeed to the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, for bringing this subject to the Floor of the House, because it has always been my estimation, given that the Iranian situation is perhaps moving towards a position of being resolved—or at least the heat is coming out of it—that this area of relations in the East and South China Seas is the most dangerous part of the globe in terms of its potential effects.

I wanted to engage in this debate also because when our Prime Minister recently visited China, the press coverage—it may not have been the fault of No. 10’s efforts—gave no mention of this dispute, even in the serious newspapers, and instead centred on trade. I would be interested to hear from the Minister what conversations took place during that visit in late December, or whenever it was, about the incident we are discussing. Clearly, this has the potential to be a major world problem. Not only are there disputes in the East and South China Seas but there is a territorial claim involving Arunachal Pradesh in north-east India. That, too, has been dealt with using what to us sophisticated diplomats in the western world seem to be unsophisticated changes in policy, or unexpected and sudden very fierce positions, that make everyone in the region nervous.

I used to be a director of the UK-Japan 21st Century Group, which involves a number of people in this House, as well as academics and industrialists. It is very sympathetic towards Japan which, as other Members have said, must be our strongest ally, and which is involved in our closest relationships in the Far East in all sorts of ways. However, I do not think that Japan has necessarily been completely correct in the way it has sometimes dealt with this. The purchase of the islands, which in some ways may have provoked this dispute, was perhaps not done in the best way that it could have been. There was surely going to be some sort of Chinese reaction. Japan has altered its own air defence identification zone a couple of times since it was established after the war. I do not suspect that it talked to China about that at the time.

More recently, of course, we had the visit by Prime Minister Abe to the war shrine, which everybody knew was going to be—again—provocative. Never mind what official Chinese government views are: clearly, the memory of the invasion of China by Japan in the 1930s and the 1940s is still very strongly in the minds of the Chinese people, with all the atrocities that happened at that time. There is still a great deal of understandable resentment of that period of history.

Added to that—not a tinder-box as yet, but a concern—is the very real United States pivot towards the Pacific, which affects Europe, the western hemisphere and our own defence requirements. It has resulted in changes in defence arrangements with Australia. China itself, through its own actions, is starting to see this as a move towards encirclement. This is clearly something it sees as a problem in relation to its own national security. Of course, we would look at that and say, “That is clearly provoked by a number of China’s own actions, and the ASEAN states are themselves going to be nervous and look for outside help, primarily from the United States and its strengthened relationship with the Pacific Rim because of these changes”.

As the noble Lord has just said, China sees itself as having had 100 years of humiliation and, as a result of that, there are all sorts of difficult diplomatic tasks. I was privileged to chair this House’s European Union Sub-Committee on External Affairs. We visited China three and a half years ago, looking at EU-China relations. There were a couple of things that really came out to me during that visit. One was meeting a retired senior military man at one of the Beijing universities. On the whole, when you go to China, you do not meet any officials who say anything that has not been agreed beforehand, and he was extremely positive in his own regard when he stated that one of China’s aims was to see the US Sixth Fleet banished from the East China Sea. That was clearly something he was putting forward to us; it was obviously not official Chinese government policy, but a view of how he saw the future. There are, therefore, a number of issues about the future that we can be very pessimistic about.

As the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, said, I would like to hear the Minister’s views on the fairly strong statement made by Catherine Ashton—the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton of Upholland—on behalf of the EU, soon after the air defence zone was declared. Europe has in many ways a soft-power ability here; it certainly does not have a hard-power ability in respect to this region, but it does have the ability perhaps, as a non-threatening power in the world, to help China in some way through the diplomacy that is needed in this region.

Some people in Europe still see China—although I would not describe it as such—as an adolescent power in respect of being able to deal with worldwide diplomacy and as a great power; they say it still has a lot to learn. That is clearly a patronising way of putting it, but China is moving from being a defender of the developing world to being a great power again itself. It needs to make those adjustments and perhaps it needs help.

Sometimes, the situation in the Pacific is seen as equivalent to 100 years ago—1914—in Europe. Clearly, that is an exaggeration. But as the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan, and others have already said, the formula is there. The circumstances are there for many mistakes to be made and for actions to happen that are not intended. I still see this as one of the challenges for the globe and a way in which Europe can involve itself over the next few years.

17:05

[Lord Triesman (Lab)]

My Lords, I join others in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Moynihan. Before I say anything else, I want to say how much I appreciated the overview provided by the noble Lord, Lord Wilson of Tillyorn, which was obviously drawn from huge experience. When we talk about China and this region, it is important to get a sense of the breadth of history, and I appreciated that.

This is a helpful opportunity to debate what may be a very significant issue for regional and world stability in the area or what may be slightly less harmful than that—unhelpful posturing on the part of a number of regional players. What it certainly does do is raise the question of how these matters are being played out, as the Asian century kicks off, and the importance of the United States in trying to deal with those strategic changes.

Any review of the maps—and I have tried—shows the complexity of the overlapping air defence identification zones around Japan and in the East China Sea. China, as we have acknowledged, is in no sense the first. Half of the area of China’s new zone overlaps with the Japanese zone in the East China Sea, and that zone was introduced shortly after World War II during the United States occupation. It overlaps to a smaller extent with the South Korean and Taiwanese zones. The South Korean zone was created as long ago as 1951. All of the zones impose some requirements, although it is plain that the Chinese initiative goes far wider than the requirements that are seen in other zones.

Since 1950, there has been, as the Chinese Government are reasonable in pointing out, a joint United States and Canadian zone, but it is also true that the United States does not apply its procedures to any foreign aircraft that have no intention of entering its airspace. That is a big difference, and the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, was quite right to remind us of that and of the absence of consultation. The United States on this basis does not accept the right of any coastal nation to apply ADIZ procedures to any foreign aircraft not intending to enter that airspace, and nor do we.

There is an overlap and there are competing zones with different procedures. That would be confusing and risky enough, but the issue is made much more confusing by the fact that some others, including Russia and China, do not recognise the Japanese zone at all. Historically, the Japanese have unilaterally on occasions increased their zone.

Given the volume of commercial airline flights and multiple routes—a factor that accompanies the growth of the economies in the region—the confusion and risk are considerably multiplied by any attempt to act on the zone procedures rather than, as I suspect may be the case, to use them as popular and populist rhetoric. Of course, the problem with populist rhetoric is precisely that it is popular. Consequently, each movement of aircraft or ships, in particular of military vehicles, ignites a popular demand for action to see off those insulting national prestige.

This is a climate in which the protagonists tend to test one another’s resolve. As soon as China announced its air defence zone in November, the United States, as we know, sent military assets through the zone. Chinese fighter jets shadowed the military aircraft and vessels shadowed vessels patrolling in the disputed waters. Japan’s leading newspaper reported that the Chinese intention is to expand their zone further until it gets more or less to the Japanese shore. There are close passes of shipping and there are fighters shadowing other fighters and bombers.

My difficulty in understanding what these regional neighbours see as the advantage in the increasingly bellicose language is that, if it is essentially rhetoric, all it does is destabilise the region without any obvious sensible purpose. Still less easy is it to understand the benefit of close brushes of a military kind, and there is no conceivable benefit in threatening to interfere with normal air traffic.

I take some marginal comfort from the fact that those threatening each other tend to be very disciplined nations with highly disciplined forces. They are probably not too liable to have accidents, but the issue must still be important enough for the international institutions to try to lower the temperature. Efforts in this direction are very important. There is too much at risk in destabilising the whole of Asia, which is otherwise stable in many respects. The region is productive and is overcoming poverty in many countries, aside from under the barbaric regime in North Korea. However, there are a number of instabilities at a top level. India and China are not in the most productive phase of their relationship and, as has been mentioned, the same is true of Japan and China.

Those are dangers where I think we could have an impact. I venture to suggest cautiously that there may be things we could do to help, even if the United Kingdom’s influence is, in a general sense, relatively small. First, all the nations in the region need to moderate their language. I was looking at some of the language of the Japanese defence Minister, Onodera, which is not conducive to the likelihood of people talking to each other in more moderate terms. They also need to start to ratchet down the nationalistic, somewhat paranoid, descriptions of what is happening, which have a big impact on populations. All parties are showing renewed nationalism and there is a very strong case for seeing whether we, who have considerable experience in this area, might be able to assist in developing a hotline which would allow those who may come into conflict in those areas—particularly at sea—to deal with it. I can say at first hand that we took up this issue, as a nation, in the upper Persian Gulf. In a sense, that is obvious and mechanical, but it is entirely practical.

Secondly, would it not be sensible if the critique of China, which is very clear and has been expressed by most nations in the region, were thought through in a little more detail? It is as if China were completely unique. The Chinese may have gone further on declared procedures, but they are entitled to ask why they are the only people with zones of this kind about which any questions are asked at all. We should ask whether that is likely to be productive. The noble Lord, Lord Moynihan is quite right to emphasise the differences this time, but there are wider histories and wider issues in which we might have a moderating effect.

Thirdly, all nations in the region must think more deeply about the offence caused by some of their leaders, particularly the genuinely distressing actions of the Japanese Prime Minister. It is distressing to see any Prime Minister visiting, honouring and sharing the history of notorious war criminals who perpetrated terrible crimes against the Chinese people. Were there to be an equivalent event in Europe, there would be an outcry. It would not be tolerated. The noble Lord, Lord Teverson, is 100% correct that it is right to raise this issue with friends in Japan, precisely because they are friends. I will put down for the record that, before he left, my noble friend Lord West told me that the Sixth Fleet has in fact vanished but only because it is now the Seventh Fleet.

Fourthly, we all know that this crisis and chronic dispute about a group of islands claimed by at least three nations needs to be dealt with. These uninhabited, uninhabitable rocks, known by different names in each of the three countries, are the prizes in this dispute. Perhaps this is because everybody understands they may anchor rights to gas, oil and fishery resources. China’s interest has plainly been awakened by the possibility of these assets coming into play.

Would the Minister consider whether the United Kingdom can offer a contribution here, even at the risk of potential rejection? The noble Lord, Lord Wilson, helpfully identified some things we could do, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, with whom I strongly agree.

A couple of our universities—this may be of particular interest to the noble Lord, Lord Wilson, because I am going to talk about Cambridge—specialise in the legal analysis of and recommendations for borders and lines of demarcation. They have a remarkable history. I first saw this work at first hand in difficult circumstances in Africa, and I acknowledge that not all of the issues that were raised have yet been concluded, but we and, for that matter, Cambridge University have no interest in sovereignty issues and we have no axes to grind in the area. There is therefore a real possibility of soft diplomacy being employed in that kind of circumstance.

I think that we could offer to get into exercises which, while of course they would not lead to commitments to the United Nations on the part of those countries in accepting the results, could result in tensions being reduced when efforts were made. The breathing space is almost always welcomed at the United Nations because it allows for the exploration of many alternatives, and studies are usually valuable and instructive for whatever the final outcomes may be. I believe that that is a useful sort of soft power. It does give rise to diffusion, and even were it to be rejected, it would be seen as a sincere and serious offer in the region.

An impartial offer will carry the message that events in the East China Sea and the regional security issues matter enough to us, half a world away, for us to take a practical interest. I hope that our Government will do so.

17:16

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi) (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Moynihan for calling this debate and to the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, and other noble Lords for their valuable contributions to it. I am grateful also for the context and detail provided by my noble friend Lady Falkner and the noble Lord, Lord Wilson. I will not try not to repeat too much of the history and background that noble Lords have already heard.

The Asia Pacific region is home to the world’s second and third largest economies—China and Japan. In 2012, together they accounted for 20% of global GDP and their economies are heavily dependent on each other, with around 20% of Japan’s imports coming from China, while Japan is China’s biggest source of foreign investment. As my noble friend Lord Moynihan rightly pointed out, there are numerous opportunities for the UK in the region. The UK is therefore committed to supporting the continued economic growth of the region and promoting the regional security and stability which underlie that. This was illustrated by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister leading the largest ever delegation to China last month, which followed a similar trade visit to Japan in 2012 and the enormously successful state visit of their Imperial Majesties the Emperor and Empress of Japan for Her Majesty the Queen’s Jubilee celebrations in the same year.

The noble Lord, Lord Wilson, asked about the current state of the bilateral relationship with China. During the Prime Minister’s recent visit to China, Premier Li described the UK’s relationship with China as,

“one that is indispensable for both of us”.

We are committed to deepening our co-operation with China in the interests of shared prosperity and security and developing our understanding of each other’s values. The UK wants China to prosper because that is good for Britain, and we have much to offer the Chinese as well. There are many things that we can and need to do together as countries of global influence and as permanent members of the UN Security Council, from negotiations with Iran to counterterrorism and climate change. However, I will certainly take back the comments and suggestions of noble Lords, along with those of my noble friend Lady Falkner and the noble Lord, Lord Triesman, on the various ways in which the relationship could be broadened through the use of more soft power. I can inform my noble friend Lord Teverson that during his visit the Prime Minister raised concerns about the issue of ADIZs and underlined our wish for a reduction in regional tensions and for improved communications between the parties. He also underlined the UK’s support for the recent EU statement.

We want China to succeed economically in an interconnected and global market. The repercussions of any nation failing would be damaging to us here in the UK. We see plenty of opportunities for co-operation. As China grows and develops, it will pursue its interests more actively. That is natural and we will encourage China’s emergence as a responsible regional and global player. It is to be expected that China will develop its military capabilities. We welcome Chinese maritime activities such as its involvement with counterpiracy in the Horn of Africa and its growing role in international peacekeeping. We encourage similar activities across the board. We are concerned about aspects of China’s military development, most notably the lack of transparency, but we believe that we can best encourage change and enhance mutual understanding through engagement.

We acknowledge that others in the region have concerns about an increasingly self-confident China which they see as using its vast economic power and other forms of leverage to gain the upper hand in territorial disputes. We have seen this recently by the regional reaction to China’s establishment in November of the air defence identification zone over the East China Sea, the subject of today’s debate. I shall comment now on that specific issue. My noble friend Lord Moynihan asked about the UK’s view on the ADIZ. While the UK does not take a position on underlying sovereignty issues, we have a clear interest in maintaining the freedom of navigation and overflight. The legitimate use of airspace is essential for security, stability and prosperity. Actions that bring, or appear to bring, these rights into question are not conducive to finding lasting solutions to the differences that exist in east Asia. The UK therefore fully supports the EU statement, which notes with concern China’s establishment of an East China Sea air defence identification zone. It heightens tension in the region and raises the risk of escalation. We have encouraged and will continue to encourage China and its neighbours to pursue through diplomatic means regional policies that ensure stability, diffuse tensions and resolve the dispute constructively without putting the freedom of navigation or commerce at risk. It is in no one’s interest that tensions escalate to a point of conflict and it is why it is for all countries in the region to take measures to avoid this conflict.

My noble friend Lord Teverson asked about the role for Europe in Asia. I fully agree that there is a role for Europe in Asia and the UK is working with other EU members to explore where the EU can make a difference, drawing on Europe’s experience and expertise on maritime issues and those relating to disaster relief. The EU hosted a seminar on maritime security with ASEAN in Jakarta last year. We recognise that other countries in the Asia-Pacific region are concerned that we may see further examples of assertive Chinese behaviour and we therefore urge all parties to work together to reduce tensions and to try to resolve these issues peacefully.

During his visit to China, the Prime Minister underlined our wish for improved communication for constructive engagement and for diffusing tension. I would urge, as I am sure noble Lords on all sides of the House would, that both China and Japan establish mechanisms to promote understanding and co-operation and to manage incidents. I take on board what we have heard today regarding how they need to move forward and go beyond a point where even ambassadors are not prepared to sit and discuss issues, as we saw on “Newsnight”.

We recognise that other countries have concerns that China might extend its ADIZ further, including into the South China Sea and Yellow Sea, resulting in heightened regional tensions. The South China Sea is of global importance, being a vital trade artery through which up to half of world trade passes. A crisis there would negatively impact on world trade and have a direct impact on UK prosperity and security interests. While we do not take a position on the underlying sovereignty disputes, we of course have a clear interest in maintaining freedom of navigation in that area. We have therefore encouraged all parties to try to resolve these matters in line with international law, including the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, and have encouraged efforts to make progress on the ASEAN-China Code of Conduct. We have offered our assistance in promoting confidence-building measures and in sharing maritime experience.

We regularly discuss foreign policy issues with the US—that point was raised by a number of noble Lords—and our discussions on areas of interest in Asia Pacific have included China’s ADIZ. We welcome the US rebalancing in the Asia Pacific region, which is in line with our own renewed engagement. In meetings between Assistant Secretary Russel, the Foreign Office and No. 10 earlier this week, views were exchanged on a wide range of Asia Pacific security issues, including the current tensions in North East Asia.

The Government are working increasingly closely with the US and other allies in the region in areas where we have common aims, such as cybersecurity, the South China Sea, North Korea, Burma and encouraging China to commit to rules on transparency and good governance. Our historical ties, including through the Commonwealth, membership of the five power defence arrangements, a garrison in Brunei, our membership of the EU and our strong trade and investment links, make us a very relevant player in the region in our own right and we continue to invest time and resources into building these relations.

We will continue to pursue an all-Asian policy, engaging constructively and strengthening relations with nations across the region. We urge all parties to strive to resolve issues peacefully so that all countries can benefit from the region’s continued prosperity and growth. We will continue to work tirelessly to ensure that the UK remains a key partner for the region. I once again thank my noble friend for calling this debate and shedding light on what is an incredibly important issue.

House adjourned at 5.24 pm.