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Chris Ruane (Vale of Clwyd) (Lab)
1. What steps the Government are taking to reduce the claimant count in Wales.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
The latest claimant count figures in Wales show some encouraging signs, but there is still much to do to ensure that the recession does not leave a legacy of worklessness in Wales. The Government remain committed to creating the right conditions for the private sector to grow and to create jobs in Wales.
Chris Ruane
Some 46% of the workers in my constituency and 45% of the workers in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency work in the public sector. The coalition Government’s theory is that as they sack public sector workers, the number of private sector jobs will increase and those sacked workers will be taken on. How many private sector jobs were created in the Minister’s constituency in the past six months and in my constituency, the Vale of Clwyd?
Mr Jones
The hon. Gentleman repeatedly raises the issue of public sector jobs in Wales, and he will know that it is generally agreed that Wales is over-dependent on the public sector and under-dependent on the private sector. The creation of private sector jobs is largely the responsibility of the Welsh Assembly Government, of which his party is in control.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
The potential risk to jobs related to Peacocks is a worry to all in south Wales and well beyond, across the United Kingdom. What action can the Minister take with his colleagues here in Westminster and in co-ordination with the Welsh Government? Will he pledge to do everything possible to help them find a funder to secure those jobs over the longer term?
Mr Jones
Yes, the issue of Peacocks is of great concern not just to Wales, but to the whole of the United Kingdom. Some 10,000 people are employed by Peacocks. Already my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has been in communication with the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills to discuss the issue. I understand that the Welsh Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science has also been in communication with the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk).
Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
Figures published yesterday by the TUC, based on Office for Budget Responsibility figures, estimate that between now and 2017 a further 40,000 public sector jobs will be lost in Wales. What is the Minister’s Department doing to stem those losses, and generally, what is the Department doing to assist the economy of Wales?
Mr Jones
The right hon. Gentleman is right. The OBR figures project a loss of public sector jobs. At the same time the OBR figures predict that there will be a gain of some 1.7 million private sector jobs during the same period. My Department is strongly engaged with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and working closely to do all we can to ensure that the private sector grows in Wales.
Mr Llwyd
The Secretary of State and the Minister have heard the awful news about Peacocks. Surely billions of pounds of taxpayers’ money was not pumped into the banks so that those same banks could now pull the plug on companies such as Peacocks. Will the Minister and his right hon. Friend do everything they can to save the company? It is important for the whole UK, but vital for jobs in Wales.
Mr Jones
The right hon. Gentleman makes a very important point, which is quite correct. He will understand, I am sure, that these are early days in this unfortunate saga. All I can do is assure him that our Department is liaising closely with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to do all we can to ensure that those jobs, if possible, can be saved.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
2. What recent discussions she has had with Ministers in the Welsh Government on inward investment in Wales.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)
I have had a range of meetings with Welsh Government Ministers and look forward to meeting the Welsh Government Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science on 6 February, when we plan to discuss, among other things, inward investment.
Kevin Brennan
The right hon. Lady will know that RBS is blaming the lack of investors for its decision to pull the plug on a deal to save Peacocks, threatening thousands of jobs. My constituents cannot understand why they were expected to bail out RBS, but RBS is refusing to help them in their time of need, when their jobs are at risk. What is the right hon. Lady doing to talk to RBS about its responsibilities in this matter?
Mrs Gillan
The moment I heard about Peacocks, I discussed it with the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, and the Welsh Assembly Business Minister has spoken to the Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr Prisk). I have the greatest sympathy. I have shopped in Peacocks myself and I know how many jobs depend on it. It is important that we explore every possibility, but I am not going to stand at the Dispatch Box, as the hon. Gentleman knows, and make false promises. We will look at what we can do for Peacocks, but it will involve the Welsh Government, as he well knows.
Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)
Does the Secretary of State agree that inward investment played an important part in the Welsh economy and could do so again, but to have an impact Westminster and Cardiff must work together? Is it not disappointing that the Welsh Assembly seems to be very reluctant to talk with UK Trade & Investment about providing growth for the Welsh economy?
Mrs Gillan
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I was disappointed to see that in an interview on this very subject in an article in the Western Mail today no reference was made to working with the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and UKTI. I have always advocated team Wales and that we should be working together. I was delighted to see that my noble Friend Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint, who is responsible for UKTI, has opened an invitation to every MP to get together with UKTI and host a seminar in the constituency, perhaps together with MPs from neighbouring constituencies. That is a great innovation where we can all work together, whether it is the Welsh Government, Assembly Members, MPs or Members of this House.
Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)
The worrying news about Peacocks hangs especially over the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) where the headquarters stand, and the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Owen Smith) with its distribution centre at Nantgarw, but the ramifications are felt right across the country, including in my own constituency where many travel to work in those centres, but also in retail centres such as in Maesteg. Will the Secretary of State directly intervene and work to keep these 10,000 vital jobs, not least as the jobless number is now rising inexorably throughout the UK, the economy is flatlining and consumer confidence is plummeting?
Mrs Gillan
The hon. Gentleman speaks powerfully, but he has been a Minister and knows that direct intervention would not be appropriate until more investigations have been made as to the reasons for this reported failure of Peacocks. Because so many jobs depend on this, if there are any redundancies or job losses, Jobcentre Plus will be there to provide individual support, as it has done in other instances. I assure him and all those beyond the Chamber whose jobs depend on Peacocks that this Government and the Welsh Government, and I am sure all of us together, will do what we can.
Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD)
Given that up to now Assembly Ministers have been very slow off the mark to take action to help out with the terrible situation facing Peacocks, will the Secretary of State ensure that Ministers at both ends of the M4 pull together to try to put pressure on the banks to ensure that we can save this important Welsh company?
Mrs Gillan
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. This is a very important company and there are many jobs to consider, as I have said before. I cannot say too often that we will look at doing all we can, but I cannot stand at the Dispatch Box and make false promises at this stage before we have further and better particulars and we know the outcome of the current negotiations that are taking place between Peacocks and the banks. She should be comforted by the fact that the Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science in the Welsh Government, the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills in our Government and I have all already been in contact on this matter.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
3. If she will assess the effect on Wales of the implementation of the recommendations of the Sayce review on employment services for disabled people.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
Public consultation on the recommendations of the Sayce report has closed. The Government are analysing the responses and will consider the implications for Wales and across the country before publishing a statement on future policy.
Ian Lucas
Wrexham Remploy has made good progress in the last four years in providing jobs for disabled people in the Wrexham and north-east Wales area, but the Sayce review and its contents threaten Remploy, not just in Wrexham but throughout Wales. Unfortunately, the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Basingstoke (Maria Miller), who has responsibility for disabled people, refuses to give me details of the financial position of Wrexham Remploy until the review is completed. Will the Minister please work with me to obtain those figures so that the 50 people who are employed in my constituency will know what their future is and know that the Government are not threatening them?
Mr Jones
The hon. Gentleman will know that the Sayce review made the commitment that existing employees in Remploy should be offered the opportunity of expert entrepreneurial and business support over a decent period of time to develop businesses, so the Sayce report shows commitment to Remploy. I hear what the hon. Gentleman says about his communications with my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary and if he would care to write to me, I will certainly pursue the matter.
Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
The way in which the Government propose to abolish disability living allowance will take £105 million a year away from disabled people in Wales, money they desperately need to help them cope with the extra costs of living with a disability, as the Secretary of State of all people should know. What meetings has she or the Minister had with disabled people in Wales on the Welfare Reform Bill, and how do they intend to address people’s very real fears about it?
Mr Jones
The Government remain committed to supporting disabled people and determined that that support should be targeted at those most impacted by their health condition or disability. As the hon. Lady will know, the new personal independence payment will be objective, fair and strongly evidence-based and will enable accurate and consistent assessments of individuals to determine who will benefit most from additional support.
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
4. What recent discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Transport on the First Great Western franchise.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
The Wales Office has regular discussions with the Department for Transport on a range of transport issues that affect Wales.
Kerry McCarthy
Does the Minister think that electrification of the First Great Western line will boost house prices along the route and, if so, would he advise my constituents in Bristol and the good people of Wales perhaps to wait a while before selling their homes?
Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)
The Minister will be aware that people in mid-Wales have campaigned for a long time for a direct route from Aberystwyth to London and an hourly service from Aberystwyth to Shrewsbury. I encourage him to encourage others to take action on both fronts.
Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
On the issue of railways, we have a great deal of sympathy with the Secretary of State on why she felt the need to sell her constituency home. Will she now take the opportunity to buy a home in Wales?
Mr Speaker
I remind the House that we are on the subject of the First Great Western franchise.
Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
Some of the cross-border services on the franchise run on the Cardiff to Portsmouth line, which in places suffers from severe overcrowding, as experienced by my constituents in Bradford on Avon. Will the Wales Office support our call for greater capacity on that cross-border route under the new franchise?
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
5. What recent assessment she has made of the effect of the autumn statement on the allocation of funds to the National Assembly for Wales.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)
The autumn statement, and the subsequent written ministerial statement by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, confirmed that the Welsh Government will receive an extra £238 million in Barnett consequentials. This additional money is an opportunity for the Welsh Government to act in the areas they are responsible for to ensure that Wales has a bright future.
Roger Williams
As a result of extra funding, the pupil deprivation fund, which was agreed to by the Welsh Government and Welsh Liberal Democrats, will mean that schools in Wales are better resourced, closing the education funding gap between England and Wales. For example, Maes-y-Dderwen school in my constituency will receive an extra £34,000 a year. Does the Secretary of State agree that this will help children and young people in Wales after 13 years of Labour underfunding in education?
Mrs Gillan
I agree with my hon. Friend, because it was the extra funding from the Treasury to the Welsh Government that enabled the leader of the Welsh Liberal Democrats in the Assembly to negotiate the extra funding for the pupil deprivation fund. That merely follows what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education has introduced in England. It is worth reflecting that after 13 years of Labour government the spending gap between England and Wales remained at around £600 per pupil.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
The signature policy of the recent autumn statement was the capital investment programme, which included provision to raise £25 billion of finance from pension funds. What discussions has the Secretary of State had with the Welsh Government and the Treasury to put in place structures to ensure that Wales does not lose out?
Mrs Gillan
As the hon. Gentleman knows, the settlement on capital funding has been good for Wales. The additional moneys that were announced in the autumn financial statement have made a great difference to the way in which the Welsh Government are budgeting. I regularly meet Welsh Government Ministers and colleagues in the Treasury. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to know further and better particulars, I will ensure that we talk together from time to time about developments.
Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)
On funding, why does the new high-speed rail plan not follow the original route via a Heathrow hub, allowing south Wales travellers direct access to the airport and a direct connection to the network?
Mrs Gillan
As the right hon. Gentleman knows, that was the previous Labour Government’s route. Matters concerning high-speed rail, HS2 and Wales are handled by the Under-Secretary of State for Wales, as he well knows. I will arrange for my colleague to write to him.
Mr Hain
I find that reply astonishing. The right hon. Lady is Secretary of State for Wales. She has a duty, as has the whole of the Wales Office and as did her predecessors, to advance the interests of Wales. Is it not the truth that she failed to make the funding case for Wales on HS2 and we lost a great opportunity? Is it not the truth that she has spent the past 18 months demanding expensive funding concessions for her Buckinghamshire constituents, rather than advancing Wales’s funding interests? Is it not the case that she has been more concerned with stopping trains, building tunnels and selling houses in her constituency than with supporting investment, growth and jobs to benefit Wales?
Mrs Gillan
I am surprised by the right hon. Gentleman, because in all the years that he was Secretary of State for Wales, he did not achieve the electrification of one single inch, whereas we in the Wales Office have already announced the electrification of the line to Cardiff. Electrification of the line to Swansea is still open and that is unfinished business. As he well knows, we are now working on the electrification of the valleys line. I hope that I will have his support for that as well. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. There are far too many noisy private conversations taking place in the Chamber. I am sure that the whole House will be united in wishing to hear Mr Peter Bone.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
6. What discussions she has had with the First Minister for Wales on cross-border human trafficking.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
The Secretary of State met the anti-human trafficking co-ordinator for Wales in December. Combating human trafficking is a key priority for the Government and we fully recognise the importance of tackling the issue in Wales.
Mr Bone
I thank the Minister for that answer. Of course, Bob Tooby is the tsar for human trafficking in Wales. He has warned of the problem of internal trafficking, both into Wales and out of Wales. Can this House learn something from Wales? Will the Minister recommend to the Prime Minister that we have a similar tsar for the rest of the United Kingdom?
Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)
Does the Minister accept that there has long been concern about the staffing levels at Holyhead, which is the premier port between Ireland and Wales, and between Ireland and the UK? Will he assure the House that immigration and security staffing levels will be maintained at a proper level?
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
7. How many apprentices are employed in her Department.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)
I am delighted to say that despite having a small Department of about 60 staff, two apprentices were recruited to the Wales Office last year. Both are doing very well and their teams are already impressed by their professional attitude and level of competence, as am I.
Robert Halfon
Will my right hon. Friend support the parliamentary apprentice school that I founded with the charity, New Deal of the Mind? Will she also consider encouraging suppliers to the Wales Office to hire apprentices? The Department for Work and Pensions is already doing that with great success and helping to reduce youth unemployment.
Mrs Gillan
I know of the great work that my hon. Friend has been doing on apprenticeships. Although we are a small Department, which relies on the Ministry of Justice for many of our services, I will do what I can to ensure that our suppliers are encouraged to adopt similar practices. My hon. Friend might be pleased to know that the Welsh Government recruited 24 new apprentices in 2010 and 66 in 2011. I will write to them to ask whether they can ensure that their suppliers do what he suggests.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
Although I greatly I admire the work of my close comrade, the hon. Member for Harlow (Robert Halfon), is not there a danger that apprenticeships that are essentially relabelled job creation and job experience schemes or internships, without a job, skill or indentures at the end, are likely to increase the cynicism and disillusionment among young people?
Mrs Gillan
I hope that the hon. Gentleman will be pleased to know that, for example, all the apprentices at the Welsh Government undertake business administration NVQs and are recruited through fair and open competition via their website, with support from Careers Wales and Jobcentre Plus. That shows that the apprentice programmes are equipping young people to take up jobs in the future. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. The House must come to order. We are discussing matters of intense interest, especially to the people of Wales.
Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)
8. What assessment she has made of the likely change in levels of public sector employment in Wales in the period up to 2017.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
A forecast of public sector job losses was published last November by the Office for Budgetary Responsibility. It was based on UK-wide macro-economic data and no regional breakdown is available.
Owen Smith
As we have heard this morning, it is not only public sector jobs that are at risk in Wales. Does the Under-Secretary agree that the Peacocks jobs in jeopardy in my constituency and throughout the country are at risk largely because of the Government’s economic decisions to choke off consumer demand and raise VAT?
Mr Jones
Of course, I share the hon. Gentleman’s concern about the plight of Peacocks. However, so far as I can see from the reports that I have had to date, it is nothing to do with the Government’s economic policy, but everything to do with Peacocks’ banking arrangements. The Wales Office is intensely concerned about the matter and will continue to express concern.
Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)
9. What support and advice her Department provides to small businesses in Wales affected by non-payment for work undertaken.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)
I understand the effect that non-payment for work undertaken can have on small businesses in Wales. The Government are determined to challenge the long-standing culture of late payment that persists across all sectors of the economy and across businesses of all sizes.
Simon Hart
The Secretary of State will know about several sub-contractors working on the Pembroke power station who have not been paid because of a dispute between the main contractors, Alstom and SOMI Impianti. Will she help me to put pressure on those companies to resolve their differences and get the sub-contractors paid?
Mrs Gillan
I greatly sympathise with my hon. Friend’s constituents. I have always supported the rights of businesses on late payment of commercial debt. Back in 1994, I signed an early-day motion to that effect, so I have been consistent in my support for a long time. I am happy to meet my hon. Friend to see whether there is anything I can do.
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
10. What recent discussions she has had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the funding formula for Wales.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
My right hon. Friend and I have regular discussions with my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer on issues affecting Wales.
David Mowat
The Under-Secretary will know that the English regions and Wales lose out because the block grant allocation is based not on need but on Barnett. In the case of Wales, the loss is about £300 million a year. What indication can the Government give us that there will be reform?
Mr Jones
Governments of all political complexions have recognised for many years the need for some parts of the UK to be funded differently from others. Concerns have, of course, been expressed about the Barnett formula, but the priority now is to reduce the deficit, and any changes to the system must happen once the public finances have been stabilised.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
The Welsh Assembly has funded the initial development of a motorsport complex in Blaenau Gwent. Will the Minister please ensure that the Government give every funding support possible to get that project off the drawing board and on to the track?
Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)
Q1. If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 18 January.
The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)
This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others and, in addition to my duties in this House, I shall have further such meetings later today.
Mr Robertson
The Prime Minister will be aware of the very strong uptake of academy status by schools in Gloucestershire, but is he aware of the enormous difference in funding that puts those schools at the bottom of the league table in terms of LACSEG—local authority central spend equivalent grant—funding? I welcome the Government’s move towards a national funding formula but, in the meantime, will he look at the serious situation of those schools in Gloucestershire?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is quite right. We need to sort out this problem even before looking at a national funding formula. We inherited the funding formula that he describes, and I believe it is flawed, which is why we are reforming it. The Secretary of State for Education has met academy heads in my hon. Friend’s constituency and will happily discuss with him how we can deal with this problem. The growing evidence is that academy schools are not just good for the pupils who go to them, but by raising standards in those areas, they are actually raising standards of all schools at the same time.
Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)
The Prime Minister told us that unemployment would fall in each year of this Parliament. Today, unemployment rose for the sixth month in a row. Does he think that has anything to do with his Government?
The Prime Minister
The Government take absolute responsibility for everything that happens in our economy, and I take responsibility for that. Any increase in unemployment is disappointing, and it is obviously a tragedy for the person who becomes unemployed and can lead to real difficulty for that family. That is why we are taking so much action to try and help people to get back into work. Although the increase in unemployment is hugely unwelcome, it is noteworthy that the figures today show that there is still an increase in the number of people employed—another 18,000 are in work. That shows that we need more private sector employment. We need to move further and faster on that agenda.
It is also noteworthy that there is a small decrease in long-term unemployment. I hope that shows that schemes such as the Work programme that the Government are introducing are beginning to have an effect, but again, we need them to go further and faster. There is not one ounce of complacency in this Government. We will do everything we can to get people back to work.
Edward Miliband
Does the Prime Minister not understand that when he boasts about rising employment, it just shows how out of touch he is? In some parts of London, 100 people are chasing three vacancies. That is the situation people are facing. Can he confirm that under his policies, far from things getting better over the coming year, he expects things to get worse and unemployment to rise to 2.8 million?
The Prime Minister
Forecasts are no longer set out by the Government; they are set out by the independent Office for Budget Responsibility. Unlike in the right hon. Gentleman’s day, these forecasts are not fixed and fiddled by Ministers, but set out by independent economists. The Government’s responsibility is to do everything we can to help people into work. That is why we have the Work programme, which is helping 3 million people; why we have the youth contract, which will get subsidised, private sector jobs for 160,000 young people; and why we have work experience for 250,000 young people. Half those are off benefits within two months, which is 20 times better value than the future jobs fund.
As I have said, there is no boasting about anything. What we have here is growth in the private sector and contraction in the public sector, but we need to get our economy moving. Key to that is having the low interest rates that the right hon. Gentleman’s plans would put at risk.
Edward Miliband
The Prime Minister does not seem to understand. The reason why the OBR figures matter is that they show that over the next year, unemployment will get worse, not better, under his policies. Nothing that he can say can deny that. That long list of policies, according to the independent OBR, will make no difference.
Let us talk about young people. Can the Prime Minister confirm that in the past year, we now have 147,000 young people out of work for more than six months? That is double what it was a year ago—an increase of 102%. Why has he allowed it to happen?
The Prime Minister
Let me give the right hon. Gentleman the figures. Over the past year, unemployment among young people, measured by the independent labour organisation—the proper way of measuring the figures—is up by 7%. That is far too high. It is not the 40% increase that we had under Labour, but it is far too high. What we need to do is help those young people into work, and that is exactly what our programmes are doing.
Let me just make this point, because I think it is important. There is a fundamental difference between the way this Government measure youth unemployment and the way the last Government did. That is important, because the right hon. Gentleman’s Government counted young people who were on jobseeker’s allowance and in any form of scheme as not unemployed. This Government say that until they get a permanent job, we will measure them as unemployed. That is right. It is not complacent, it is frank, straightforward and what we never got from Labour.
Edward Miliband
It really is back to the 1980s—a Tory Government blaming unemployment on the figures. No wonder the Prime Minister has rehired Lord Young, the Employment Secretary in the 1980s.
On long-term youth unemployment, the Prime Minister is wrong on the facts. Long-term youth unemployment, which has a scarring effect on our young people who are out of work and have been out of work for more than six months, has doubled in the past year. However much he twists and turns about the figures, can he confirm that central fact—that it is up by 102% in the past year?
The Prime Minister
I have explained the figures. If we look at the number of young people who have been out of work for longer than 12 months, we see that it has started to go down. That is not nearly enough, and far more needs to be done, but that is what the Work programme is all about. That is what the right hon. Gentleman needs to understand.
There is a context to all this. If we want to get unemployment down, we have got to keep interest rates down, and we have had a reminder in recent days of what happens if you do not have a plan to get on top of your deficit, get on top of your debts and get your economy moving. That is what the right hon. Gentleman does not understand.
What we have is a Government who are absolutely clear about their plans and an Opposition who have absolutely no idea. Last year the right hon. Gentleman marched against the cuts, now he tells us that he accepts the cuts, yet today he is telling us that he wants to spend more and borrow more. He is so incompetent that he cannot even do a U-turn properly.
Edward Miliband
I know that the Prime Minister does not want to talk about the young people out of work in this country, because he is embarrassed by his record on what is happening, but he owes it to them to tell the facts as they are about what is happening to them. I come back to this point: the Prime Minister said in his answer that long-term unemployment among young people is going down. It is not going down; it is going up.
The Prime Minister mentions the Work programme, which he introduced with a great fanfare in June. What has happened to long-term youth unemployment since he introduced his Work programme?
The Prime Minister
Let me give the right hon. Gentleman the figures. [Interruption.] I will give him the figures exactly. There are far too many young people who are long-term unemployed. There are 246,000 young people who have been unemployed for more than a year, but that is down 11,000 on the last quarter. That is not enough, and we want to do more, but it is because we have the Work programme, the youth contract, 400,000 apprenticeships and 250,000 people going into work experience that we are making a difference. Why does he not come up with something constructive instead of just knocking everybody down?
Edward Miliband
I will tell him what he should do: he should change course. It is his policy. Why is unemployment rising? It is rising because he is cutting too far and too fast. It is his record. However much he twists and turns, it is his record. That is why unemployment is rising. Unemployment among women is the highest since the last time there was a Tory Government; youth unemployment is the highest since the last time there was a Tory Government; and unemployment is higher than the last time there was a Tory Government. Is not the defining characteristic of this Government that they stand aside and do nothing as thousands of people find themselves unemployed?
The Prime Minister
To be fair to the right hon. Gentleman, he changes course every day; he is an expert at changing course. Labour’s shadow Chancellor said two days ago:
“My starting point is…we are going to have to keep all these cuts.”
Then Labour’s deputy leader said yesterday that
“we’re not accepting the Government’s…cuts, we are totally opposing them and we’re fighting them.”
The right hon. Gentleman is flip-flopping on a daily basis. It is no wonder that the founder of Labour’s business forum had this to say:
“At a time when the nation needs strong political leadership, Labour offers nothing…the pro-business, pragmatic approach to wealth and enterprise”
have all gone.
“Instead there is a vision and leadership vacuum.”
What total adequate testimony to what stands opposite!
Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
Q2. My right hon. Friend will be aware that I recently raised the case of my late constituent, Mr Martin Pratt, with the Armed Forces Minister. He will also be aware of the excellent “Fighting Fit” report, written by my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), dealing with post-traumatic stress disorder among veterans. Owing to the stigma often attached to mental illness, many veterans wait years before seeking appropriate help, and I hope that my right hon. Friend can tell the House what plans the Government have in this area, so that those who need help can seek it at the appropriate moment.
The Prime Minister
My hon. and learned Friend is entirely right to raise this issue. The mental scars that people who serve this country often receive can be every bit as deep as the physical scars. It is not something that we have always accepted and understood properly, which is why the report, “Fighting Fit”, by my hon. Friend the Member for South West Wiltshire (Dr Murrison), is so important. He has real experience and understanding of this matter. We have accepted and implemented almost all its recommendations—we have launched the 24-hour combat stress support health line, we are introducing the advanced mental health assessments for service personnel and we hope to get the veterans information service up and running in April this year.
Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)
With the tragic accident involving the cruise ship Costa Concordia and the 50-plus liners of the same size or bigger that will visit Greenock dock on the Clyde in the coming months and year ahead, does the Prime Minister still think that it was the correct decision to close the Clyde coastguard station?
The Prime Minister
First, the case in Italy is clearly a tragic one, and our hearts should go out to the people who have lost loved ones—people from countries right across the world. We need to wait and see what the exact cause of the accident was before we jump to conclusions about any changes to regulations or other things. However, if changes need to be made, including on the issue that the hon. Gentleman raises, of course we will make them.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
Q3. The Prime Minister has kindly undertaken to introduce a comprehensive water Bill early in the next parliamentary Session. Will he end the uncertainty for water customers and the industry alike by publishing the draft Bill now, so that we can have proper parliamentary scrutiny?
The Prime Minister
We will publish a draft water Bill for pre-legislative scrutiny in the coming months. As my hon. Friend knows, there are many important parts to the water Bill. One that stands out is the promise that we have made and the funding that we have supplied to help cut water bills in the south-west of our country by £50 from April 2013. That addresses a historical unfairness: people in the south-west feel that they have paid unfair charges to provide clean beaches for many of us who do not live in the south-west. I am delighted that we can make progress on this issue.
Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab)
Q4. In America, six directors from the bailed-out Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae companies have been taken to court for gross mismanagement. In this country, the Financial Services Authority says that it cannot bring enforcement action against Royal Bank of Scotland because of the ongoing legal tender. Will the Prime Minister consider introducing a legal sanction of strict liability into his draft Financial Services Bill so that those responsible for the banking crisis will be taken to task? After all, we are in this together.
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. The whole point about overhauling our financial services regulation is that it gives us the opportunity to look around the rest of the world, see who has tougher penalties and work out whether we can introduce them to our system. That is why we will be introducing this Bill, with a major overhaul of how the Financial Services Authority and the Bank of England work, and dealing with the regulatory system that was not working properly.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
A year ago the Prime Minister told me that the reason for the, at the time, new Health and Social Care Bill was
“simply that this country now has European levels of health spending but does not have European levels of success”.—[Official Report, 19 January 2011; Vol. 521, c. 831.]
Now that we know that that is not the case, will the Prime Minister shelve this disruptive and destructive Bill, which is struggling in another place, go back to the coalition agreement and build from there?
The Prime Minister
I have great respect for my hon. Friend, but I do not agree with him on this one. With the Health and Social Care Bill, a huge exercise was undertaken, in which the Deputy Prime Minister and I both played quite a large role, of actually listening to health professionals—to doctors, nurses and associated health professionals—to understand what they most wanted to see in the NHS reform Bill, and that is what we are delivering. My hon. Friend says that it is not the case that we have outcomes that are less than some parts of Europe; I am afraid it is the case. In some cases we could be doing a lot better. To argue just that the NHS simply needs money and not reform, I do not believe is right.
Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)
Q5. In the north-east, unemployment among women is rising at twice the rate as that among men. Where does the Prime Minister think a woman’s place is: in the home, in the workplace or in the jobcentre?
The Prime Minister
I want many more women to have the opportunity to be in the workplace. What we have seen in the figures is this. Of course there is a disappointing increase in unemployment among women, but if we look since the election, there are 59,000 more women in work today than at the time of the last election. However, I am not satisfied with that. That is why we are boosting child care for two-year-olds, three-year-olds and four-year-olds to help women into work. We are introducing, through universal credit, support with child care for all women who work, not just those who work over 16 hours. Lifting more than 1 million people out of tax, the majority of whom are women, obviously also helps women into the work force. That is what I want to see.
Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con)
Q6. Last week I met a couple in Redditch who were appalled that a family in their area were getting more on benefits than they were earning working full time. Does the Prime Minister think that is right or fair?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an important point. Let me say this about the benefit cap. We owe it to people who work hard, do the right thing and pay their taxes to make sure there are some limits on welfare. What we are saying with the benefit cap is that a family can get up to £26,000 in benefit. You would have to earn £35,000 in order to achieve that standard of living, so I believe that the benefit is fair, and that is why we are going to introduce one.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
Does the Prime Minister feel any shame at all that some of the most vulnerable people in our society—certainly cancer and heart patients—will undoubtedly be financially penalised as a result of the measures going through the Lords? Is it any wonder that people say that it is the same old Tories and that the Tories are the nasty party?
The Prime Minister
I do not accept what the hon. Gentleman says. The whole point about employment and support allowance is that there are two groups. There are those who cannot work who need help, in the support group. Many people will go straight into that group and will be able to receive that benefit for as long as they need it. If he looks at what we have said, and looks at the report by Professor Harrington, he will see that there are going to be more cancer sufferers getting benefits and, actually, fewer people facing the face-to-face interview. He shakes his head; he should look at the evidence before asking the question.
Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)
Q7. I was shocked to discover that mainstream terrestrial television carries adverts for online bingo at 5 o’clock in the afternoon and that 31 hours and 55 minutes each week is dedicated to live casino betting and gaming, which has been classified as teleshopping since 2009. At a time when there is £1.45 trillion of personal debt in this country and when we are encouraging people to be moderate in their expectations and behaviour, will the Prime Minister please protect consumers, children and the vulnerable from this kind of activity by asking for a review by Ofcom—
The Prime Minister
The hon. Lady raises an important issue about gambling advertisement on television. I am all in favour of deregulation and trying to allow businesses to get on and succeed. Gambling programmes and betting advertising were not permitted until the last Government allowed them in 2007 and they are strictly regulated by Ofcom and the Advertising Standards Authority. It is not just a question of regulation, as it is also a question of responsibility by the companies concerned. Anyone who enjoys watching a football match will see quite aggressive advertisements on the television, and I think companies have to ask themselves whether they are behaving responsibly when they do that.
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
On the subject of gambling, Hackney has 90 bookies—three times the national average. Will the Prime Minister listen to the debate that took place yesterday and take action this Friday and instruct his Ministers to support the private Member’s Bill that will be before the House and will give local authorities more planning powers over bookies?
The Prime Minister
I will certainly look at the debate the hon. Lady mentions and the ideas expressed in it. We are all for localism and giving local authorities greater powers in these sorts of regards. I will look at the suggestion she makes.
Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)
Q8. Does the Prime Minister agree with me that in this the 30-year anniversary of the Falklands war the actions of the Argentine Government are wholly deplorable? Will he remind Argentina that it lost the Falklands war and that it is up to the Falklanders to determine their own future?
The Prime Minister
First of all, it is very important that we commemorate the Falklands war this year—the 30th anniversary—and remember all those who served and fought so hard and some who gave their lives and did not come home. We should remember all those people this year. The absolutely vital point is that we are clear that the future of the Falkland islands is a matter for the people themselves. As long as they want to remain part of the United Kingdom and be British, they should be able to do so. That is absolutely key. I am determined to make sure that our defences and everything else are in order, which is why the National Security Council discussed the issue yesterday. The key point is that we support the Falkland islanders’ right to self-determination. I would argue that what the Argentinians have said recently is far more like colonialism, as these people want to remain British and the Argentinians want them to do something else.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
Q9. Blaenau Gwent has seen a rise in unemployment today to more than 3,000—a 16% increase in the past year. When does the Prime Minister expect unemployment to start falling?
The Prime Minister
The forecast is set out by the Office for Budget Responsibility and it is for it to make the forecasts—and it expects unemployment to be lower at the end of this Parliament than at the start, and employment to be higher. The Government’s job is to try to do everything they can to help the hon. Gentleman’s constituents into work—via the Work programme, the youth contract, the apprenticeship schemes and work experience, but above all, by keeping interest rates low, so our economy can grow and we do not fall into the mistakes that others in Europe have.
Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con)
Q10. What recent assessment he has made of the effect of the European working time directive on (a) doctors’ training and (b) patient care within the NHS.
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend raises an important issue about the working time directive and its effect on the NHS. Nobody wants to go back to the time when junior doctors were working 80 or 90 hours a week, but I think we all see in our constituencies that the working time directive has sometimes had a bad effect on the NHS, particularly on training programmes for junior doctors. That is why the Government are discussing this issue with the Royal Colleges and others to make sure that we can have flexibility in this vital area.
Charlotte Leslie
I thank the Prime Minister for his answer. Does he share the widespread concern coming largely from the medical professions themselves that while we wait for lengthy EU processes to reconsider the directive across Europe—and it has not even been decided what it is that they are going to discuss—we are seeing a critical undermining of junior doctors, as they often say themselves, an erosion of the future professionalism of the NHS and, dare I say it, we are putting patient care and patient lives at risk? What steps can the Prime Minister take to ensure that we sort this out quickly?
The Prime Minister
I think my hon. Friend is right. Frankly, this has nothing to do with the single market; it is to do with how we run our health service. In particular, as I have said, it affects our training programmes for junior doctors, often in rural areas where we do not have such large hospitals. What can we do to sort this out? The Health and Business Secretaries are committed to revising the directive at EU level to give the NHS the flexibility it needs to deliver the best and safest service to patients. We will work urgently to bring that about.
Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)
Is the Prime Minister aware that, since I have been an MP, every single medical problem at a hospital in my constituency is related to weekend working by exhausted junior doctors. Far from being a problem, the directive is a solution: we have had far too many exhausted doctors in charge of patients.
The Prime Minister
I do not doubt—in fact, I do doubt what the right hon. Gentleman says. I cannot believe that every problem in his hospital is down to this one issue. All I can say is that the local hospital that serves my constituents in Chipping Norton was threatened with massive downgrading partly because, under the working time directive, it could not supply the training modules for junior doctors. That seemed a classic example of the cart being put in front of the horse. We ought to determine what hospitals we want, and then think about the training modules, but the EU working time directive was getting in the way.
David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)
Q11. I welcome this week’s announcement of closer co-operation between financial centres in Hong Kong and London, which will help to make the City a hub for the Chinese renminbi currency market. Does the Prime Minister agree that that helps to highlight the opportunities for trade in Asia and the importance of promoting this country’s commitment to free trade, and shows that this country is open for business?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes a vital point. Clearly, the markets in Europe are going to be difficult: 50% of our exports go to the EU, and we are seeing a freezing effect across the European Union. The rest of the world economy, however, is growing, and we need to get out there and sell to those markets. I am pleased to say that exports to China were up by 20% last year. The arrangement that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has come to, which will make London one of the great renminbi trading centres, is an important breakthrough, but we need many more like that.
Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)
Q12. Will the Prime Minister clarify the position of the coalition Government on inheritance tax? My constituency recently received correspondence from the junior partner in the coalition Government, stating:“If the Tories were governing alone, they would be cutting inheritance tax for millionaires and they would pay for it by reducing public spending even more.”Is that true?
The Prime Minister
The position on inheritance tax is covered in the coalition agreement.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
Q13. Last week, on the Syrian border, I met Syrian army deserters who had refused to kill their fellow citizens, and a small child wounded by that regime. If things there are to get better, not worse, the world must stop selling arms to Syria. What evidence does the Prime Minister have of countries shipping arms to that regime?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an extremely important point. Britain needs to lead the way in making sure that we tighten the sanctions, travel bans and asset freezes on Syria. On who is helping the Syrian Government to oppress their people, there is growing evidence that Iran is providing a huge amount of support. Some shipment interceptions by Turkey are particularly interesting in that regard. People should also know that Hezbollah is also an organisation that is standing up and supporting the wretched tyrant who is killing so many of his own people.
Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)
The Prime Minister will no doubt be aware of a report from international aid agencies this morning saying how the crisis in the horn of Africa was made worse by the delay in the international community responding. It warned that a similar crisis is threatening in west Africa. What will the Government do to try to ensure a speedier international response?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman raises an important point, and I will study the report carefully. My understanding is that the British aid effort was swift at getting aid into the horn of Africa and was leading the pack, both in the extent—the money committed—and speed of the response. Clearly, the horn of Africa is a very difficult place to deliver aid to, not least because of the control al-Shabaab—in effect, a terrorist organisation—has in large parts of Somalia. I will look carefully at what he says about west Africa, and I will ensure that we learn any available lessons.
Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con)
Q14. On 26 October, I raised the case of my constituent, 14-year-old Lillian Groves, who was killed outside her home by a driver under the influence of drugs. The Prime Minister kindly met her family to talk about the case, which I believe has support across the House, for changing the law to deal with the menace of drug-driving. Will my right hon. Friend update the House on progress?
The Prime Minister
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend’s work on this issue. It is important that we take seriously the issue of drug-driving. As he knows, we are committed to making the drug-testing equipment available for use in police stations as soon as possible. The case that he is making, which is that we need an equivalent law to that for drink-driving, has great strength. The Government are examining that case closely. Clearly, we need to look at whether there will be an opportunity in the second legislative Session to take forward the measure, which I know he will be campaigning for hard.
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
Does the Prime Minister share my concern at yesterday’s ruling by the European Court of Human Rights that Abu Qatada cannot be deported? If so, will the right hon. Gentleman agree to initiate all-party discussions focused not on rhetoric about ripping up the Human Rights Act but on how, in practice, the Court could operate more proportionately, so that rights are respected but the safety of the public is always paramount?
The Prime Minister
I agree wholeheartedly with what the right hon. Gentleman has said. I think that the judgment is difficult to understand, because British Governments—both the present Government and the one in which the right hon. Gentleman served—have gone to huge efforts to establish a “deportation with assurances” agreement with Jordan to ensure that people are not mistreated. In this case, the European Court of Human Rights found that Abu Qatada was not going to be tortured but was worried about the process of the court case in Jordan. It is immensely frustrating.
I think that a country such as Britain, which has such a long tradition of human rights, should be able to deport people who mean us harm. That principle is vitally important, and we are not just going to have strong rhetoric about it. I am going to Strasbourg next week to argue that as we are chairing the Council of Europe, this is a good time to make reforms to the ECHR and ensure that it acts in a more proportionate way.
Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con)
Q15. On 26 March 2010, a two-and-a-half-year-old boy named Jobe Felton was kidnapped from his home in Cannock Chase and taken to Thailand by his mother. Six months later, his father finally tracked him down in a remote village. He found that his son could not speak, had had his teeth broken, and had bruises all over his body. He believes that had he not got him back then, Jobe would have been sold. Each year in the United Kingdom, more than 500 children are kidnapped in similar circumstances. Will the Prime Minister meet me and Jobe’s father, Sean Felton—who has set up a charity called Abducted Angels, and who is in the Gallery today—to discuss what the Government can do to help parents of abducted children like Jobe?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to raise that case. It is a simply appalling case, and any parent cannot help being chilled to the bone about what happened to that poor boy.
I think it is vital for us to put in place the best possible arrangements. As my hon. Friend knows, the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre is to be part of the National Crime Agency. I very much hope that we shall be able to legislate for the agency and ensure that it is properly resourced, because—as my hon. Friend says—it is vitally important that when these appalling acts happen, we get on top of them right away. Early effort is absolutely vital to saving these children.
Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)
When does the Prime Minister expect to be cross-examined by the Leveson inquiry? Does he not agree that the British people deserve an answer to the question of why he appointed one of Murdoch’s top lieutenants, Andy Coulson, to the heart of the British Government?
The Prime Minister
I shall be delighted to appear before the Leveson inquiry whenever I am invited, and I am sure that other politicians will have exactly the same view. I shall answer all the questions when that happens.
It is good to see the hon. Gentleman on such good form. I often say to my children, “There is no need to go to the National History museum to see a dinosaur; come to the House of Commons at about half past twelve.”
Mr Speaker
Order. We now come to the statement by the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice, Mr Secretary Clarke. Before the right hon. and learned Gentleman begins his statement, I appeal to Members who, unaccountably, are leaving the Chamber—who, for some reason, do not wish or are not available to hear the right hon. and learned Gentleman—to do so quickly and quietly, so that the rest of us can listen to the statement.
Detainee Inquiry
(12 years, 4 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I wish to make a statement.
This Government stand firmly against torture and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment or punishment. We do not condone it, nor do we ask others to do it on our behalf. In July 2010, the Prime Minister announced a package of measures to this House designed to deal with allegations about British involvement in the mistreatment of detainees held by other states overseas. As he told the House then, those allegations are not proven, but their consequences are serious. In his words:
“Our reputation as a country that believes in human rights, justice, fairness and the rule of law—indeed, much of what the services exist to protect—risks being tarnished. Public confidence is being eroded, with people doubting the ability of our services to protect us and questioning the rules under which they operate.”—[Official Report, 6 July 2010; Vol. 513, c. 175.]
No one should be in any doubt about the vital nature of the work that our security and intelligence agencies perform on our behalf or the debt that they are owed by all of us. Without public recognition, the men and women of the services take the gravest personal risks to protect the security of our country. So in his statement 18 months ago the Prime Minister set out a package of measures designed to ensure not just that we can get to the bottom of allegations of mistreatment, but that we learn any lessons, improve the framework for litigation where sensitive material is involved, and enable our security and intelligence services to get on with their vital job.
Since July 2010 the Government have taken a number of steps to fulfil this commitment. We have published for the first time the consolidated guidance for intelligence officers and service personnel on dealing with foreign liaison services regarding detainees held in their custody, to make clear the basis on which our security and intelligence services operate. We have also secured a mediated settlement of the Guantanamo Bay civil damages cases, about which I made a statement to this House on 16 November 2010. I also made a statement to this House on 19 October 2011 on the publication of the Government’s Green Paper on justice and security, which aims to improve our courts’ ability to handle intelligence and other sensitive material and to strengthen the parliamentary and independent bodies that oversee the security and intelligence services. We will set out our response to the consultation on the Green Paper in due course.
We also established an inquiry under Sir Peter Gibson to examine whether, and if so to what extent, the British Government and their intelligence agencies were involved in the improper treatment of detainees held by other countries in counter-terrorism operations overseas, or were aware of improper treatment of detainees in operations in which the United Kingdom was involved. Since then, the Gibson inquiry has been in a preparatory phase, with the panel focusing on a review of key underlying material. The inquiry has had the full co-operation of Departments and agencies during its preparations and has received a large volume of material in response to its requests for information, which it is in the process of considering. We have always been clear, however, that the detainee inquiry would not be able to start formally until all related police investigations had been concluded.
Last week, the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Metropolitan Police Service made a joint statement that they would not charge any named individuals in the Security Service and Secret Intelligence Service in relation to the investigations in Operations Hinton and Iden. However, they also announced that allegations made in two specific cases concerning the alleged rendition of named individuals to Libya and their alleged ill-treatment there were so serious that it was in the public interest for them to be investigated now rather than at the conclusion of the Gibson detainee inquiry. I made a written ministerial statement on Monday this week explaining that the Government were considering the implications for the detainee inquiry of these new police investigations.
The Government will continue to co-operate fully with the police and the Crown Prosecution Service in their investigations, and we remain committed to drawing a line under these issues. As part of this process, the agencies will continue to review their records, and we will ensure that this process is thorough and comprehensive. We and the agencies are absolutely clear that where there are any questions about knowledge of improper treatment of detainees, they must be fully examined and, where necessary, investigated. Looking to the future, we will carefully review the responses to the Green Paper about the oversight of the agencies.
However, these further police investigations into the Libyan allegations may take some considerable time to conclude. The Government fully intend to hold a judge-led inquiry into these issues, once it is possible to do so and all related police investigations have been concluded. But there now appears no prospect of the Gibson inquiry being able to start in the foreseeable future. So, following consultation with Sir Peter Gibson, the chair of the inquiry, we have decided to bring the work of his inquiry to a conclusion. We have agreed with Sir Peter that the inquiry should provide the Government with a report on its preparatory work to date, highlighting particular themes or issues which might be the subject of further examination. The Government are clear that as much of this report as possible will be made public. We will continue to keep Parliament fully informed of progress. The Government fully intend to hold an independent, judge-led inquiry, once all police investigations have concluded, to establish the full facts and draw a line under these issues. Meanwhile, however, the police inquiries that have now commenced must obviously continue. I commend this statement to the House.
Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)
I thank the Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement. The whole House unequivocally condemns torture, and inhumane, cruel and degrading forms of punishment. We must not condone it or ask others to do so on our behalf. One of the marks of a civilised society is that we will do everything in our power to champion human rights, both at home and abroad, and that we will properly investigate, prosecute and punish those alleged to have committed such crimes in this country or on behalf of this country elsewhere across the globe. So, allegations that members of our security and intelligence services may be involved in the improper treatment of detainees held by other countries, with acts that contravene these basic levels of human decency that we hold so dear as a nation, need proper and full investigation.
The investigations in Operations Hinton and Iden relate to serious and highly sensitive matters involving, as they do, allegations about members of the Security Service and the Secret Intelligence Service. Operation Hinton followed a referral from the former Attorney-General, my right hon. and learned Friend Baroness Scotland, in November 2008 and Operation Iden followed a referral, also by the former Attorney-General, in June 2009. These independent investigations concluded on 12 January this year, as has been said, with a decision not to charge any named individuals in relation to the investigations in Operations Hinton and Iden.
Our security and intelligence agencies perform vital work on our behalf and we owe them a debt. Without public recognition, the men and women of these services take the gravest personal risks to protect the security of our country. But it is clearly right that, in the light of the further, specific allegations of ill-treatment made recently, the Metropolitan Police Service and the Crown Prosecution Service investigate these thoroughly. Although it was also right that the inquiry led by Sir Peter Gibson was put on hold while investigations into criminal proceedings were ongoing, I would ask the Justice Secretary why he has decided not to have a further hold in Sir Peter Gibson’s inquiry while these further investigations are carried out. It is also important that the pause is used as an opportunity to ensure that the former detainees and the human rights and campaign groups who chose not to engage in the Sir Peter Gibson inquiry are brought back into the fold.
May I ask the Justice Secretary what his views are on the representations made by those acting on behalf of the detainees, non-governmental organisations and others that an inquiry conducted with the current terms of reference and protocol does not comply with articles 3 and 6 of the European convention on human rights? It is clearly important that any inquiry has legitimacy, and I invite the Justice Secretary to use the period while the allegations are being investigated by the police to work with ourselves, NGOs and other experts to ensure that the new inquiry has as much legitimacy as is possible. I also ask the Secretary of State when and how he intends the work of Sir Peter Gibson, or as much as is realistically possible, to be published.
The key point is that we must get to the bottom of what happened. We are firmly of the view that there must be an independent inquiry as the quicker these questions are answered, the quicker we will be able to draw a line under these issues.
Mr Clarke
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his broad support for the aims we are pursuing. I agree with everything he said about the security services and I think we owe it to them, as well as to the reputation of this country, to draw a line under these matters as quickly as possible, which involves investigating them all properly and making the position clear as well as considering matters such as the supervision of the services in future.
The right hon. Gentleman asked why we did not have just another pause in the Gibson inquiry, as we were previously just waiting for the outcome of the police inquiries into the Guantanamo Bay cases. With great respect, it is not even fair to the team to keep things going on in that way. I had hoped to be able to come to the House and say, if anyone asked me, that the Gibson inquiry was now under way, that it was starting its proceedings and that all was going smoothly. We now have to wait for an as yet unknown period of time while the Libyan investigations are carried out and while we see where they go. The Metropolitan police took three years to look into the Guantanamo Bay cases and I think everybody is anxious that we should be quicker than that as we look at the Libyan cases, but we have no idea how long it will take.
Sir Peter and his colleagues have done some work and the sensible thing is to publish the outcome of their preparatory work now, wait to see what happens to the investigations and to set up an independent judge-led inquiry as soon as it is feasible, which might require a fresh team of people to carry it out. We have the terms of reference for Gibson because we think the Gibson inquiry itself should not take too long and I have discussed the terms of reference with NGOs, representatives of former detainees and so on. I will quite happily continue those conversations and I have been trying to persuade them that the Gibson inquiry meets their needs and that they should actively participate and engage in the process. I will continue that and I will listen to their views, too, about the nature of the inquiry. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman and those outside the House who have an interest that the Government will hold an independent judge-led inquiry. We are where we are, and the Gibson proposals are our proposals.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
As a member of the Intelligence and Security Committee, may I endorse the observations made by my right hon. and learned Friend and by the shadow Justice Secretary about the contribution that the security services make to the security of the nation? When the Gibson inquiry was first conceived, the hope was expressed that it might complete its work within one year. As events have subsequently proved, that prognosis was rather optimistic. May I say to my right hon. and learned Friend that I think that he has inevitably had to bow to the changed circumstances and that his announcement today is entirely sensible and will preserve all the issues that would otherwise have been dealt with by the Gibson inquiry?
Mr Clarke
I am grateful to the right hon. and learned Gentleman. The point that lies behind the debate I have been having with NGOs and detainee representatives about the terms of reference is that our aim would be that the judge-led inquiry might conclude within a year. We do not want an inquiry that takes years and years and becomes too legalistic. We are still open to discussions about that, but the right hon. and learned Gentleman obviously shares my view that it would be much better if we were able to get things under way and hold this inquiry. I am grateful for his support for the inevitability of holding fire and getting Sir Peter to produce what he has done so far.
Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)
Sir Peter Gibson is a retired senior judge of the highest integrity and skill and I am personally quite certain that had he had the opportunity to continue this inquiry, he and his colleagues on the panel would have been able to do a most thorough job and would have gained the confidence of the NGOs and others in the course of that inquiry in exactly the same way as Sir William Macpherson, who was faced with a high degree of scepticism when he first began the Lawrence inquiry, was able to assuage the concerns of many of those involved in the course of the proceedings. May I also say to the right hon. and learned Gentleman that I believe that he is absolutely right to do what he has and that in practice he has had no alternative?
Mr Clarke
I am grateful for that view and for the right hon. Gentleman’s support because I keep trying to assure people that there is no conspiracy here. The Government actually want these things to be properly investigated and want the full facts to be shared with the general public so far as they sensibly can be, consistent with the interests of national security.
Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con)
It was widely held that the Gibson inquiry’s approach to the investigation set out in the protocol and in the interpretation of the terms of reference was defective in a number of important respects. I have brought those to the attention of the Government already and have discussed them in correspondence with the Prime Minister, as my right hon. and learned Friend will know. In particular, there was no intention to cover detainee transfer in theatre and no intention to appoint an investigator or even to try to investigate all the cases of credible allegations brought forward. Will my right hon. and learned Friend undertake to review fully all these aspects of the Gibson inquiry’s proposed work so that we can rectify these defects when an inquiry reconvenes?
Mr Clarke
I will continue the conversations I have been having with my hon. Friend and others about the basis on which the Gibson inquiry is proceeding. I have been trying to persuade people to be more co-operative with the Gibson inquiry, but I am also quite happy to listen to points that people make to me about why they have reservations. The Government wanted to proceed with the Gibson inquiry on the present terms of reference and would have done so if we had not had this final delay. We have more time to consider the matter, although we did not want more time, and I am happy to discuss these matters with my hon. Friend and others again.
Hazel Blears (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
Our intelligence agencies do a hugely important job for this country, but it is essential that they operate and are seen to operate within the highest standards of human rights ethics and a proper legal framework. Does the Secretary of State agree that it is essential in the current circumstances to take forward his proposals in the Green Paper on justice and security to strengthen the role of the Intelligence and Security Committee so that we can have the legal powers and the necessary resources to be able to scrutinise fully the work of our intelligence agencies?
Mr Clarke
I assure the right hon. Lady that there is no delay to that aspect of our policy. We will shortly be responding to the consultations on our Green Paper, the first of which concerned the basis on which courts and other proceedings can handle intelligence material in a way that improves their ability to try cases without jeopardising national security. The second concerned the important matter that she raises of the supervision by this House and elsewhere of the security services.
Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con)
I welcome my right hon. and learned Friend’s approach to this matter. Does it remain his hope that at the end of this process we can avoid the situation that arose in the previous Parliament when my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie) and others were reassured over and again on the Floor of the House that there was no United Kingdom involvement in any respect with any extraordinary rendition, which subsequently turned out not to be the case?
Mr Clarke
Like my hon. Friend, I was a member of the all-party group on extraordinary rendition being led by my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Mr Tyrie), so I was as anxious to see the outcome of the police and other inquiries as everybody else. The whole point is to dispel all this because we must have an effective national security system and effective agencies. People who work in those agencies do very brave work that is essential to this country. We must draw a line under all this and investigate fully this legacy of allegations in order to find out exactly what happened and work out how to proceed and how to scrutinise the services in future.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
The Justice Secretary clearly has the support of both sides of the House in the decision he has taken today. Could he clarify whether this was his decision or whether Sir Peter came to him and asked to be relinquished of his responsibilities in view of the fresh investigations? I know that the Justice Secretary cannot give us a timetable, but does he envisage this lasting for months or years?
Mr Clarke
It was discussed with Sir Peter Gibson and he agrees that this is the way to proceed. I did not personally have the conversation, but in the light of last week’s inquiry it was decided that it was sensible to discuss this with Sir Peter and he agrees with the decision we have taken to proceed in this way. I wish I knew how long the Metropolitan police investigations will take. I hope that they will not take as long as the Guantanamo Bay cases, but there is absolutely no basis on which I can properly intervene with the police. We want these matters to be investigated thoroughly so we will wait and see.
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
It looks increasingly clear that this is going to take years rather than months. Can my right hon. and learned Friend assure me that in the intervening time he will take particular care in defining the terms of reference on the Libyan dimension, which in my opinion is much wider than just rendition? What about, for example, the training of Libyan forces at the defence academy at Shrivenham? We need to narrow down the issues when it comes to Libya so that we can avoid the pitfalls that have beset the Gibson process thus far.
Mr Clarke
The intention was that the Gibson inquiry would cover that aspect of the Libyan allegations, particularly the two allegations of rendition, that fitted with the terms of reference the inquiry already had for the Guantanamo Bay cases, but a lot of issues have been thrown up by the Libyan allegations and we will consider how best to handle them. Unfortunately, the Metropolitan police are bound to take months at least, I should have thought, so we have time to consider how best to handle these matters.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
I wholeheartedly agree with the statement that the Justice Secretary has made today, but how can we ensure that the security and intelligence agents who do such sterling work on our behalf are protected against false allegations against them?
Mr Clarke
I have never been able to protect anybody against false allegations but the easiest way of handling such allegations is to investigate them quickly and dismiss them. I have no doubt that allegations that turn out to be false will be quickly dismissed by Sir Peter Gibson and I hope that any future inquiry will get rid of malicious or politically motivated allegations, to which people who work in this field are bound to be exposed. However, that is not a description of the things now being looked at. The questions being raised here are serious and this issue calls for some explanation. We want the Libyan cases to be investigated very thoroughly and we look forward to the police conclusion and the results of a judge-led inquiry on the whole matter.
Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)
Last July, my right hon. and learned Friend confirmed to me at the time of his statement on the Gibson inquiry that he wanted Shaker Aamer, the last British resident detained in Guantanamo Bay, to be available to give evidence to it. Does not this pause give a fresh opportunity to press the case that he should be released and be available to give evidence to any new inquiry?
Mr Clarke
My hon. Friend is probably right. That is another good reason why we would like Shaker Aamer to be released and I will bring her remarks to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. We keep making representations and trying to get him released and brought back.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
When some of us were calling for a public inquiry led by a judge into phone hacking at the News of the World, we cited the Gibson inquiry as one that had been set up even while criminal investigations were ongoing, and the Secretary of State said that it was important that Gibson was able to secure whatever evidence there was that might in other cases be destroyed. I hope that he can still make that assertion today.
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
We must get to the bottom of the allegations of mistreatment as soon as possible. The credibility of the intelligence services depends on it. To that end, how soon after police investigations are concluded does the Secretary of State expect a successor detainee inquiry to be established? In the interim, is there an enhanced role for the independent reviewer of terrorism legislation that might require him to have a salary and an office outside the Home Office to review these matters independently and effectively?
Mr Clarke
We have not taken any decisions yet about the exact point at which we will start constituting a new judge-led inquiry or approaching a judge and people who might wish to serve on the inquiry. What we did this time was to set up the Gibson inquiry in the belief that we were about to start imminently—going into the full formal stage after a few months of preparation. Presumably, we will try to repeat that, but at this stage it is impossible to know when we will be in a position to do that. At the moment, we want to review the facts of these cases so I do not feel the need to create a new appointment to review the legislation in this area; indeed, I would argue, subject to what emerges, that the law in this area is reasonably clear. It is the facts that we hope to investigate, and then the application of the law to those facts.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
Is not the real lesson of Gibson that important inquiries such as this cannot proceed properly without the full confidence of all interests and participants? What is the Justice Secretary doing to ensure that any future inquiries will have the full confidence of all human rights groups and all lawyers involved in such cases?
Mr Clarke
I have met a very wide range NGOs, human rights groups and those with an interest, and I have been trying to persuade them that the Gibson inquiry is something that they should get engaged with. I very much hope still to see them doing that. I am still having meetings about the Green Paper on security and justice and of course on the supervision of the security services. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary was here earlier; we will continue to engage. I agree that it would be very much better if we could get the NGOs and others to accept that this is the way to proceed. We will continue to listen to their arguments about why they feel that they cannot, and we will do our best.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
I welcome the Secretary of State’s statement. Does he agree that under procedure there is no other way than to allow the Crown Prosecution Service to make those investigations before carrying on with the inquiry?
Mr Clarke
I am glad to hear that my hon. Friend believes that. I think that is right. The problem of letting the inquiry go ahead while the police are carrying out the investigations is obviously that one could hopelessly compromise the other. We cannot have witnesses giving evidence about events when the police are in the middle of inquiries into the self-same events. [Interruption.] Well, that was the basis upon which we started, and everybody accepted that Gibson could not start until the police investigations had finished. There are sensible reasons, as my hon. Friend says, why we are in that situation.
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)
Our country has a reputation around the world as one which protects human rights. When allegations of extraordinary rendition were made, it tarnished that image. I welcome the Lord Chancellor’s inquiry into the whole issue and the support given by the shadow Secretary of State for Justice. I ask the Lord Chancellor to take on board the points that the shadow Secretary of State for Justice mentioned.
Mr Clarke
I am grateful to the hon. Lady. It is extremely important that we maintain this essentially cross-party approach to these matters and that the House gives its full support to our attempts to get to the bottom of these matters. As she says, it is in the interests of this country and of the Security Service that we do so.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
For quite a long time, together with the security services and the police, I was responsible for detainees and for interviewing them. In all that time we took huge care to comply with instructions, particularly about human rights, when interviewing detainees. It is very difficult and sometimes dangerous work for the officers concerned. I hope—I know—the Secretary of State will agree that instances of poor practice are few and far between and are very sad indeed.
Mr Clarke
My hon. Friend speaks with much greater authority than I on the subject and puts forward an opinion with which I wholeheartedly agree. That is why it is in the interests of the vast majority of those brave men and women who serve in those services, often in very dangerous situations, that we tackle these allegations of malpractice. I am sure the allegations are against a tiny number of officers and it may be that they will turn out to be unfounded. The sooner we can clear this up and draw a line under it, the better.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
Will the Justice Secretary accept that the allegation that British security officials handed over suspects to places abroad where they were tortured is a matter of great concern for Britain’s reputation? I said “allegation”, but in the case last week of the two Libyans, the letter which was found from the MI6 officer confirms that that was not merely an allegation. The two were sent over to Libya and were tortured. As we know, one of them, who holds a high position now in post-Gaddafi Libya, is accordingly bringing legal action against the UK Government.
Mr Clarke
Those are the serious allegations which need to be investigated and are being investigated by the police. On the principle of the matter, which the hon. Gentleman underlines, this Government are absolutely clear that we do not engage in torture, we do not condone torture, we do not get engaged in torture in any way, and we are not remotely going to get involved in the cruel and inhuman treatment of detainees in any way. The sooner we investigate the serious allegations that have emerged from Tripoli, the better.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
The Secretary of State said that in pursuit of the Libyan allegations “the agencies”, which I presume are the security agencies, “will continue to review their records”, and that the Government will ensure that the process is “thorough and comprehensive.” Is there any room for independent oversight of that review by the agencies of their records and of any lack of records that might be identified? How exactly can he assure the House that that process will be thorough and comprehensive, as it seems that the subsequent police investigation will be entirely dependent upon it?
Mr Clarke
One must adopt a sensible approach to this. We did not expect the Libyan revelations to appear until they emerged from that office in Tripoli. For that reason a most thorough review of records is being undertaken and will continue. To bring in fresh people to review the review—one gets carried away. I have no reason to doubt that at present the most thorough review is taking place to make sure that we know where we are and we can put an end to the matter by having it properly and independently investigated, eventually by a judge-led inquiry.
Points of Order
(12 years, 4 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Is it in order for the hon. Member for South West Devon (Mr Streeter) to describe Dudley as ugly? Why should a place which boasts the UK’s first national geological nature reserve, a fantastic castle, a beautiful town centre which traces its roots back to mediaeval Britain, and the award-winning Black Country living museum be sneered at by somebody like him? Should he not come to Dudley and see these gems for himself? Would you like to come to Dudley, Mr Speaker, so that you can see how wrong he was?
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman not only for the content of his point of order, but for his courtesy in giving me advance notice of it. I remind him that a wise person said that there is no point in arguing about taste. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I am sure Dudley is beautiful to its own Member of Parliament. That the hon. Gentleman is a doughty and articulate exponent of that perceived beauty is no surprise to me, as this year marks 30 years since he and I first made each other’s acquaintance at the university of Essex. I am afraid that on the matter of the beauty or otherwise of Dudley, I have not yet had an opportunity to form my own judgment, but I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s prospective invitation and I would, of course, be inclined to accept it. I do not think expressions of aesthetic opinion fall within the rules of order unless those expressions of opinion concern another Member of the House.
Mr Speaker
I will come to the hon. Gentleman. I am saving him up. He is too precious. I do not want to waste him too early. I call Mr Chuka Umunna.
Mr Chuka Umunna (Streatham) (Lab)
Thank you, Mr Speaker, and on a point of order. You will be aware that excessive pay and rewards for failure in the City and in boardrooms round the country are a matter of huge public interest. The Government have let it be known that they will announce what they plan to do about the issue on Tuesday next week. Our strong view is that the Business Secretary should do so in an oral statement to the House. He is giving a speech to the Social Market Foundation at 12.30 pm on Tuesday, before the House sits. Can you advise the House whether you have been given notice that he intends to come first to the House on Monday to give an oral statement on what the Government are to do about the matter, and whether you would expect him to do so?
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that point of order, of the content of which I did not have advance notice. I would certainly expect that if a significant policy announcement is to be made, a statement in one form or another—there are different forms of statement, as the hon. Gentleman will be aware—would first be made to the House. I hope the hon. Gentleman will understand if I say that more widely than that I would be reluctant to go. I would want to observe how the Government conduct themselves and judge matters accordingly, but both the Leader of the House and the Deputy Leader of the House are aware of the premium that I attach not on my account, but on behalf of the House, to the House hearing and, preferably on very important matters, having the opportunity first to question Ministers. It is desirable that the House hears first, rather than audiences outside.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. One of the areas of parliamentary life—the manners of this Chamber—that has improved in recent years is that it is now completely unacceptable for one Member to criticise another Member on the basis of gender, race, ethnicity or disability. The most under-represented group in this Parliament is the septuagenarians. Today we heard what I believe many of us thought was a gratuitous and entirely offensive insult to a greatly respected hon. Member, made entirely because of his age. Is it not right that ageist discriminatory remarks should be outlawed in the same way that other discriminatory remarks are?
Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not also the case that “Erskine May” makes it very clear that no Member of Parliament should criticise another and call them a name that relates to an animal? In those circumstances, is it not only right that the Prime Minister should come back to the House and apologise to my hon. Friend the Member for Bolsover (Mr Skinner)?
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not important that those of us of a certain age group should not be seen as the new persecuted minority?
Mr Speaker
Is it on the same matter? Gosh, a vintage quartet indeed, and a very high quality vintage.
Mark Pritchard
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. You have seen the grey hairs as well—on my head, of course. I seek your guidance on whether this Parliament and this House of Commons would be better with more or less humour.
Mr Speaker
I am always in favour of humour, but just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder, humour is a matter of subjective judgment. Sometimes people are funny, sometimes they think they are funny, sometimes they think they are funny deliberately when they are not, sometimes they do not realise they are funny when they are. There are all sorts of different permutations. It would be unwise for me to offer a view as to the category into which the matter of current discussion happens to fall, but I have never had any doubt about the hon. Gentleman’s well-developed and furnished sense of humour.
I agree with the hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) that septuagenarians should not become a persecuted minority. The hon. Gentleman is sometimes in a minority, and a principled minority, on a range of matters, and has been throughout his long parliamentary career. All I would say is that I do not think that the hon. Gentleman himself is persecuted, certainly not by me, and anybody trying to persecute the hon. Gentleman should frankly give up the unequal struggle, because that person will not get anywhere with the hon. Gentleman.
With regard to the point of order from the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr Donohoe), I think that I am right in saying that “Erskine May” no longer contains the prohibition to which the hon. Gentleman refers. I think that, certainly at one time or another, there has been a prohibition on, or presumption against, reference to an existing animal.
With regard to the point of order of the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn), it is very difficult for me to interpret the mindset of another hon. or right hon. Member, be that a newly arrived Member, or a very senior Member, or the most senior Member of the Government. Sometimes an observation might be made with reference to perhaps a past attitude, style or conduct, and I do not think that I want to get into the issue of what was said today. I might want to reflect on it. All I would say is that I share the hon. Gentleman’s absolute disapproval of sexism, racism, ageism and other forms of discrimination. The hon. Gentleman’s track record on that matter speaks for itself over a very long period.
Keeping of Primates As Pets (Prohibition)
(12 years, 4 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)
I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to prohibit the keeping of primates as pets in the United Kingdom and the breeding, sale and purchase of primates; to introduce breed-specific codes of practice for the keeping of primates in animal sanctuaries and for species conservation; and for connected purposes.
I present this Bill to the House today on behalf of those who cannot speak for themselves. I refer to non-human primates, most commonly referred to as monkeys. The Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and Wild Futures estimate that between 2,500 and 7,500 primates are kept as pets in England, Wales and Scotland, but others suggest the number might be as high as 15,000 to 20,000. Owing to the lack of registered breeders and the unregulated nature of selling monkeys to private buyers, it is very difficult to come up with an exact figure. I will explain to the House how monkeys suffer by being kept as household pets, and why there is such a strong case for banning primates as pets.
More than 360 highly regarded primatologists and other respected professionals support the call for a restriction on primate keeping to genuine specialists, and only for the purposes of sanctuary or conservation. There are many countries that have already banned keeping primates as pets, including Israel, Mexico, Honduras, India, Brazil, the Netherlands, Belgium and Sweden. I will explain to the House why it is entirely necessary to follow the lead of these countries and introduce a ban on keeping primates as pets in the UK.
As some hon. Members may know, the Monkey Sanctuary in Looe is in the heart of my constituency of South East Cornwall, and some may even remember the tale of Donkey the monkey, whom I spoke about in another debate. I would like to report that he is keeping very well. It is telling that none of the monkeys re-homed at the Monkey Sanctuary was free of behavioural problems on arrival, and most showed multiple neuroses. Primates show evidence of self-awareness and intelligence, and have sophisticated cognitive capacities and complex patterns of behaviour. They also form intricate social relationships and are keen problem solvers. It is well known that non-human primate intelligence is on a par with that of humans.
However, the RSPCA has confirmed that 61% of incidents involved primates being housed alone. The effects of a lack of socialisation are profound. These include high levels of abnormal behaviours such as self-mutilation and difficulties socialising. Furthermore, cutting off the period in which young primates are dependent on their mothers is known to have long-lasting negative psychological and physiological effects. The Monkey Sanctuary informed me that common repetitive behaviours are classic in ex-pets. Examples include pacing, head twisting, teeth grinding, rocking and overeating. Primates also require a high level of specialist care to provide for their complex needs.
Commercially available primate foods do not account for specific dietary requirements. Inappropriate diet can increase susceptibility to diseases of human origin, including respiratory, gastro-intestinal, skin and viral disorders. Primates have been found to have been fed seriously inappropriate items, such as coffee, tobacco and marijuana.
Furthermore, RSPCA records show that over a quarter of cages were judged to be ridiculously small—in some instances, monkeys were found housed in parrot cages. For those who do not think that it could get worse for those monkeys, here is another fact: they are mostly kept indoors. That leads to a lack of sunlight, which means that the necessary vitamin D levels are rarely met. Bone disease in primates kept as pets is a recurrent problem.
Let me tell the story of Joey, a capuchin monkey who is now residing at the Monkey Sanctuary in Looe—Members who wish to see a photo of Joey can see me after the debate. He was kept in a small cage in a London apartment for nine years. A lack of natural light and proper diet led to nutritional bone disease. He has extensive bone deformation, including bowed limb bones and poor bone density. He cannot climb or eat easily and is permanently disabled. He also displays the stereotypical rocking behaviour that is classic for ex-pets. His owner was away most of the time and, other than a friend who spent about an hour with him every day, Joey had no social companionship. It appears that the local council granted a licence for Joey under the Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976 for at least the first year, but at some point it was not renewed and the council never followed up the case. That means that the council seems to approve of the conditions in which Joey was kept, conditions that led to serious physical deformities and behavioural abnormalities.
Another case only last month concerned a ring-tailed lemur found on Tooting common. He had collapsed in sub-zero temperatures and was diagnosed with hypothermia, severe dehydration and shock. Named King Julien by the staff at the Blue Cross animal hospital in Victoria, he was cold, scared and did not want to eat. Happily, the lemur is now on the road to recovery and strong enough to leave the charity’s care. He has been transferred to Specialist Wildlife Services. I would like to thank those at the Blue Cross hospital for everything they did for King Julien and for doing all they can to re-accommodate him in a suitable environment.
Another recent case did not have such a happy ending. A west-midlands couple who owned a crippled baby marmoset monkey sold him in a fish and chip shop car park for £650 in June, rather than take him to a vet. An RSPCA primatologist said that Mikey had advanced bone disease and seven fractures. His tail, which is used for balancing, was broken. His injuries were deemed so severe that he had to be put down. The couple were convicted of animal cruelty and banned from keeping pets for life.
I argue that the Animal Welfare Act 2006 has not been an effective tool in protecting primates that are kept as household pets. The Act states that local authorities are meant to inspect the primate’s living conditions and assess whether it has a safe environment. Monkeys are let down by the fact that many local authorities lack primate expertise. They do not have the working knowledge required to assess correctly whether a primate is in a healthy environment. This leads to cases such as that of Joey, who ended up being re-homed at the Monkey Sanctuary but with severe physical and psychological problems, and monkeys like Mikey inevitably having to be put down.
The RSPCA has also confirmed that, proportionately, complaints reported to it were four to 12 times more frequent for primates than for typical pet species. I cannot fault the premise of the 2006 Act, but evidently it is not accomplishing what it set out to do, which is to protect these animals. The only effective means of adequately safeguarding pet primate welfare is banning the keeping of primates as pets. I therefore urge all hon. Members to support the Bill, which would free these monkeys who cannot help themselves.
Question put and agreed to.
Ordered,
That Sheryll Murray, Oliver Colvile, Zac Goldsmith, Bob Stewart, Mark Pritchard, Caroline Nokes, Stephen Gilbert, Katy Clark, Mark Lazarowicz, Neil Parish, Peter Aldous and Joan Walley present the Bill.
Sheryll Murray accordingly presented the Bill.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 30 March, and to be printed (Bill 273).
Local Government Finance Bill
(12 years, 4 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
15:18 - divided: - Ayes: 246 / Noes: 316 - Question accordingly negatived.
18:32 - The Committee divided: - Ayes: 232 / Noes: 318 - Question accordingly negatived.
18:49 - The Committee divided: - Ayes: 228 / Noes: 318 - Question accordingly negatived.
Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)
I beg to move amendment 20, page 2, line 13, leave out ‘2013’ and insert ‘2014’.
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: amendment 21, in clause 2, page 2, line 19, leave out ‘2013’ and insert ‘2014’.
Amendment 22, in clause 3, page 3, line 21, leave out ‘2013’ and insert ‘2014’.
Amendment 23, in clause 4, page 3, line 35, leave out ‘2013’ and insert ‘2014’.
Amendment 24, in clause 5, page 4, line 5, leave out ‘2013’ and insert ‘2014’.
Amendment 25, in clause 6, page 4, line 22, leave out ‘2013’ and insert ‘2014’.
Helen Jones
We have tabled these amendments because we are concerned about the way the Bill is being rushed through the House and, should it be enacted, the short time allowed for its implementation. Understandably, the Bill deals with difficult questions. It is not easy when dealing with local government finance to resolve exactly where the line should be drawn between central and local government, how far services should be uniform and how far we are prepared to tolerate variations in them. I accept that the Government carried out a consultation before bringing in the Bill, but the problem is that the Bill seems to reflect little of that consultation.
In addition, the Bill is being taken through the House at a break-neck pace. It was published on 19 December, just before the Christmas recess, and had its Second Reading on 10 January, which was the first day the House returned and only two sitting days later. Instead of sending the Bill upstairs to Committee, where we could have taken evidence, which we cannot do on the Floor of the House—that is the important thing about Public Bill Committees—the Government insisted that the Bill should be considered in Committee of the whole House in three days, and I think that it was originally meant to be two days.
Why are the Government so worried about taking evidence upstairs in Committee? They might be a little worried about what they could hear, because the truth is that local councils, having started to look at the Bill in detail, are particularly concerned about the speed of implementation for its provisions and are struck by the number of powers being given to the Secretary of State.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that another possible motive for considering the Bill on the Floor of the House is the coalition Government’s botched programming of business for this Session and the fact that, were it not being considered here, there would be little to be heard in the Chamber?
Helen Jones
My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point, which I will come to in a moment.
If the Bill comes into force, one extremely complex system will be removed and replaced with another extremely complex system, without time for local authorities to prepare for it.
John Healey (Wentworth and Dearne) (Lab)
Before my hon. Friend moves on from the question of evidence, I do not want her to overlook the value of such evidence. Does she agree that democracy works better when a wide range of organisations has an opportunity to contribute effectively to our discussions? Evidence sessions in a Public Bill Committee give organisations that represent people with a wide range of interests the chance to assess, analyse and propose amendments to improve legislation. That stage will be sorely missed because of the way in which the Government are handling the Bill.
Helen Jones
I could not agree more with my right hon. Friend. Since I have entered this House, I have learned that the best way to improve legislation is to scrutinise it effectively and listen to those who will have to deal with it when it comes in. If the Government chose to take evidence, they would have ample opportunity to table amendments to the Bill in Committee or on Report.
Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con)
There are 650 Members of Parliament, many of whom are former councillors. There is a good body of experts in this Chamber. I welcome what the Government are doing. It allows people to have their say.
Helen Jones
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that point. Although he is correct in saying that many of us have been local councillors, I point out to him, with all due deference because this applies to me as well, that many of us were local councillors some time ago and that the system of local government has altered in the time since. It would be beneficial for the House to hear from those who are running local councils now. I sincerely regret that we have not had time to do so.
Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is making an important point. I have always found local government slightly more complicated than quantum mechanics.
Graham Stringer
Well, a lot more complicated. Does my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) agree that the last time a Conservative Government had a major reorganisation of local government finance, they ended up putting VAT up for ever and costing the country £20 billion per year?
Helen Jones
My hon. Friend, who is a distinguished former leader of a local authority, makes a valid point. I agree with him on one thing: local government finance is exceedingly complicated. For that reason, it might well have been useful to hear in Committee from people such as finance officers in local authorities who will have to deal with this procedure from day to day. They might well have been able to suggest technical amendments that would have been beneficial to the Committee and which, if we are honest, are beyond the expertise of most hon. Members.
George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con)
Will the hon. Lady remind the Committee how many months of extensive consultation the proposals for the Bill have gone through before this stage and how many changes to the scheme were proposed and then adopted?
Helen Jones
The hon. Gentleman should recognise that it is not much use having a consultation unless it informs the legislation. [Interruption.] Local authorities say that it has not. A second process, which many Members have found useful, is to allow people to give evidence on the exact wording and form of the Bill once it has been published. I believe that if we are serious about the legislation that we introduce in this House, it is right and proper to give people the opportunity to do that. People have not had time to do so with this Bill because we are not having evidence sessions in Committee. The House introduced such evidence sessions because it was believed that they would improve legislation. It is a pity that the Government have decided to miss them out.
Helen Jones
I am inundated. I will give way to my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford).
Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab)
Is it not very clear to my hon. Friend and to Government Members that there is something slightly odd about a Bill that is supposed to give benefits to local government arousing considerable anxiety and concern in local government, as we have seen in the briefings that we have received? Is that not clear evidence of the need for further thought and attention to the detail to ensure that we do not end up with a disaster that is problematic for local government, rather than a measure that gives greater discretion and benefits to local government?
Helen Jones
My right hon. Friend makes a very good point. In delivering local services, we are meant to be partners with local government. It is right and proper that the House has an opportunity to take on board the views of local government on the legislation.
As my right hon. Friend is a London Member, perhaps I may read out what London Councils says:
“The retention scheme as written is extremely complex and does not, in our view, incorporate adequate reward and incentive for local authorities. London Councils believes that the Government needs to urgently rethink the business rate retention scheme that it has set out in the Bill.”
If we had had a proper Committee stage upstairs, we could have taken evidence on that matter, considered technical amendments and debated them properly. It is a shame that we are not doing so.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
I agree with my hon. Friend completely. We are only doing things in this way because the Government do not have enough to fill our days. Since we have the innovation of the whole Committee stage on the Floor of the House, could we not have another innovation of having witnesses before us? There is a special place for them at the Bar of the House. We could devote one day, or perhaps additional days, to hearing exactly what those in local government think about the legislation.
Helen Jones
My hon. Friend, as usual, makes an interesting point, but he is tempting me to go beyond my remit and discuss the procedures of the House. Perhaps the Procedure Committee could look at that point.
John Healey
Before my hon. Friend moves off the question of procedure, does she agree that it is important that we do not lose sight of the fact that the introduction of evidence sessions as part of the Public Bill Committee process, as opposed to the Standing Committee process, was one of the good reforms of the previous Parliament? The hon. Member for Poole (Mr Syms) is right that there is useful expertise across the House from Members with a background in local government. However, unlike the previous consultation and the public statements of Ministers, evidence sessions would give members of the Committee and Members who are following the legislation time and help in getting to grips with the content of the Bill. It serves our purpose, as well as the wider purpose of better legislation, to have those evidence sessions and not to put them to one side, as the Government are doing in this case.
Helen Jones
My right hon. Friend is right. We do have a lot of expertise across the House, but we need up-to-date and informed expertise, which is what evidence sessions give us.
Graham Stringer
On a point of order, Mr Hoyle. I was interested in what my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) said. Will you advise the Committee on how it could hear from witnesses in its sittings on the Floor of the House?
The Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
There is no procedure to do that in Committee of the whole House. Mr Bryant was taking the hon. Lady away from the subject that is before us.
Helen Jones
I will just make a little progress.
Councils are expected to prepare for the changes that the Bill will bring in without knowing exactly what they are preparing for. This is an enabling Bill and we have not seen any draft regulations to go with it. In the Government proposals, there is no guarantee that councils will not be worse off after the first year of the scheme. Councils do not yet know what percentage of business rates they will be allowed to keep. They do not know how the levy will be set, nor who will qualify for a safety net payment and in what circumstances. They do not know what their business rate baseline will be.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
My hon. Friend is making an incredibly important point, which cuts to the heart of the matter. The Government say that they are in favour of localism, yet they have created a Bill in which the Secretary of State retains many powers. As my hon. Friend says, those powers are not defined, so it is not clear whether local government will keep business rates and how much it will keep, or whether and when the Secretary of State will intervene.
Helen Jones
My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. As the Bill progresses, we will table amendments to attempt to clarify some of those matters. However, at the moment, local authorities are in the dark about what they will deal with next year, if the Bill is passed.
Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)
As with so much legislation under this Government, whether in Committee or on the Floor of the House, we are being asked to consider the Bill blind. We are not given the background information that we need—for example, the national planning policy framework in the case of the Localism Bill. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Bill, like so much current legislation, is therefore likely to form part of the logjam in the other place at some point further down the line? The amendment makes enormous sense, because the last thing we want is legislation stuck in the other place, and, in this instance, for the timetable to be missed.
Helen Jones
My hon. Friend makes an important point about our not seeing the draft regulations. It is difficult to debate the Bill properly without them and it also makes matters difficult for local authorities. Moreover, the measure is a carry-over Bill. The Government have got themselves into such a mess with their legislation backing up in the Lords that they cannot, even with the extended Session, guarantee that the Bill will get through before the Queen’s Speech.
Chris Bryant
May I pull up my hon. Friend on one point? She referred to councils, but she means councils in England. Is there not a particular irony here, in that the Conservative party has spent the past few years campaigning for English votes for English folks in the House, yet by holding the Committee stage on the Floor of the House, Welsh Members of Parliament are almost required to take part in the process when otherwise they would not be allowed to do so?
Helen Jones
My hon. Friend makes an interesting point, although I have never known him to need any pushing to take part in any process in the House—thankfully, because he contributes so much.
The Bill is hugely complicated, local authorities do not know what faces them, and the measure will not get through until the next Session. On the Government’s timetable, the Bill must get Royal Assent by July. That means that regulations may not be put before the House until after the Bill has finished its passage. The House will rise earlier than usual this year because of the Olympics, which means that they may not be put before the House until the autumn. That causes real difficulty for local authorities, because it leaves so much uncertainty about what they will have to deal with.
John McDonnell
I feel a bit like Banquo’s ghost in this debate because I was chair of finance on the Greater London council, whose expenditure tipped Mrs Thatcher over the edge and into nationalising the business rates. There are real problems with the complexities of the Bill, as set out in the briefing from London Councils. It is difficult for individual Members of Parliament and individual local authorities to work out the implications for one’s area. Although we cannot receive witnesses on the Floor of the House, as the Deputy Speaker said, the Government have introduced a procedure whereby we can pause a Bill to enable us to undertake further consideration and consultation with the relevant interested parties. Perhaps the Government could consider that at some point during the day. We might want to pause the Bill and come back to it later, after more detailed discussions with interested parties.
Helen Jones
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for reminding us of two things: that a Conservative Government nationalised business rates and the idea of a pause. The Government are in such a mess with most of their legislation that the whole lot could probably do with a pause while they rethink.
Let me revert to the uncertainty for local authorities. They have made it clear that they are concerned about the short time they will have, following the passage of the Bill and the regulations that go with it, to make changes to their systems. London Councils said:
“All of these changes will require substantial changes to systems and processes at the local level, and we are extremely concerned that not enough time is being allowed for all of these policies to be properly thought through and implemented.”
I could not put it better myself.
Local authorities are being asked to cope with not only changes to non-domestic rates, but the localisation of council tax benefit at the same time. That will require new IT systems, which are unlikely to be ready, and more changes to local council revenues.
Alison Seabeck
There are only three, possibly four companies in the UK that are capable of producing the sort of software that local authorities might require. Clearly, they will have a capacity problem if they are faced with hundreds of local authorities wanting individual systems. That is concerning.
Helen Jones
My hon. Friend is right—there will be a capacity problem. Again, it would have been useful to hear witnesses from the relevant companies and consider the time scale they need.
Councils will also have to cope with changes to their revenue. It is likely that some people who receive a cut in their council tax benefit will not be able to pay, and collection rates will fall. That will affect some local authorities far more than others. The change also brings with it the possibility of more claims, because we are moving from perceiving something as a benefit to its appearing as a reduction in the council tax bill. All those with expertise in benefits say that it is likely that more pensioners will claim. That is a good thing, but local authorities need time to adjust their budgets because they face a 10% reduction in the amount of money available, coupled with protection for pensioners, and the possibility of more claims.
Mr Raynsford
My hon. Friend is making a powerful case. She is considering the changes to the benefits scheme and she highlights the fact that an increase in pensioners’ claims as a result of the changes would be a further problem for local authorities. Indeed, it will be a major problem for them, because they will not receive the funding to pay for it that they get under the current benefits scheme. They are being asked to budget in advance, with all the uncertainties, knowing that the downside risk remains with them if the financial position is not as good as they thought when they budgeted. There is no safety net in the benefits part of the system for authorities that find themselves in difficulty. That is a fundamental problem, which is arousing real concern in local government circles. It is extraordinary that the Government are not giving an opportunity for those serious problems to be understood.
Helen Jones
My right hon. Friend is, of course, right. Throughout the Bill, financial risks are transferred to local authorities. The Government set the system but transfer the financial risk elsewhere.
Let me return to the problems with IT systems. Earlier, my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck) mentioned that only a few firms provide those systems. Interestingly, Capita has sent an e-mail to benefit and council tax managers to set out its concerns about the timing of the system. The manager who sent the e-mail writes:
“I think the most important point to make is that I remain concerned and disappointed that the timetable remains unchanged meaning that primary and secondary legislation will not be passed until the summer / autumn / winter 2012. Without the framework and detailed regulations underpinning both the local schemes and means for ensuring that pensioners now and in the future remain protected or treated equally, it is impossible to commence planning for software changes.”
That is the system with which the Government are expecting local authorities to cope.
There are other changes in the Bill—provisions on tax increment financing, on the rating of empty properties, and on exemptions from the scheme for renewable energy projects—for which local councils need time to plan, adjust their budgets and rethink the way they do things. Those measures require changes to how councils organise themselves and changes to IT systems. Many local authorities are making it clear that they believe the Bill does not give them sufficient time to prepare for those changes.
May I make a suggestion to the Minister—it is meant to be a helpful one? I try to be helpful occasionally even if the Whip is giggling away. Why not run the proposed system as a shadow system for one year to see how it works and iron out the glitches? Why not continue with the old system for a year but give local authorities an indication of what they would have received under the new system? That would allow any problems to be ironed out and the system to work properly.
Above all, the Opposition are saying that Ministers ought to take note of the people who must implement the changes on the ground—the people who collect the rates, who design the systems, who administer council tax benefit and deliver the services. If the Government rush the implementation of the Bill and it all goes wrong, chaos could result. They need to take the opportunity to test the system properly and to think things through. If they insist on introducing this hugely complex system, they need at least to give themselves time to run it properly and ensure that local councils can adapt their systems properly. That is why I have moved amendment 20 today. It might be helpful if I tell the Committee at this point that the Opposition intend to press the amendment to a Division.
Mr Syms
I, too, have been an Opposition politician. Opposition politicians often argue that Bills taken on the Floor of the House really ought to be taken in a Public Bill Committee; and when there is a Public Bill Committee, they argue as eloquently as possible that the Bill ought to be taken on the Floor of the House. When Opposition politicians are not sure what to do about a Bill, one thing they say is that it has not been considered for long enough. They then try, as amendment 20 does, to delay the commencement date, because that is a good substitute for hearing their views on such reforms. If they can press an amendment, such as amendment 20, to a Division after a debate, that is very good, because in that way they cannot discuss some of the important issues in, say, schedules 1, 2 and 3. Perhaps we will end today not quite knowing where the Opposition are on some of those issues.
The reality is that we probably have the most centralised system of local government in the western world. The Bill is a step in the right direction for devolving power. Perhaps it does not go far enough, but we will doubtless see as the Committee progresses over its three days what assurances we get from the Minister on the pace at which the Government are going.
I am confident that the Government’s instincts are right. My experience of local government officials is that they must always second-guess central Government. Some are pretty good at it. Rather than prevaricating, if we are to change the system, the sooner we do so, the better. I therefore support my hon. Friend the Minister.
Mr Kevan Jones
The reason the Bill is being taken on the Floor of the House is that there is no business—the business is in a logjam up in the other place.
It is important that the Bill gets detailed scrutiny. As my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) said, in a Public Bill Committee, we would have been allowed not only to scrutinise the Bill, but to take evidence from councils, professionals and others with such expertise. We will not have that opportunity. As one who sat on one of the very first pre-legislative scrutiny Committees back in 2001—it was on the Civil Contingencies Act 2004—I was converted and became a great fan of such pre-legislative scrutiny. That Committee was given the chance to look at the proposals in detail, and as my hon. Friend said earlier, the Bill will bring about a radical change in local government finance in this country.
We had just over three hours last week on Second Reading.
Mr Jones
As my right hon. Friend says, we had two hours on Second Reading for Back Benchers. What we will see with this Bill is what we have seen with a number of Bills. They fly through the House at the speed of light only to land in the other place to be picked apart slowly but surely because of their terrible drafting and the draconian implications they will have for many of our constituents. I can foresee exactly what will happen with this Bill. When we look at the next few weeks of business programmed for the House, we can see that we could have unlimited time to debate the Bill, but time will be limited, and the Government will push the Bill through with undue haste because they are determined to do so.
As has already been said, the time scale set out in the Bill leaves councils with a huge dilemma, which is why I support amendments 20 and 21 to 25. I said this on Second Reading, but I will say it again: the Bill is highly political in the sense that the Government are shifting blame from themselves to local councils under the guise of localism. A good example of that in the Bill is the administration of council tax benefit. The measure contains a poison pill. Local councils must defend their decisions on implementing a 10% cut locally. Clearly, the Minister and the Secretary of State will turn round and say, “It’s not us, Guv; it’s local councils.” That has been the Government’s approach to responsibility throughout. It is nothing to do with localism; it is a highly political and cynical attempt to deflect the blame from where it should lie—it should lie with the Government, not local councils.
John Healey
My hon. Friend makes an important point that counters the assertion of the hon. Member for Poole (Mr Syms). He said that Opposition Members argue that the Government are going too far too fast with the Bill because we do not know what to say about it. Does my hon. Friend agree, to the contrary, that the local authorities that must implement the Bill are worried about the rapid time scale? Authorities in Yorkshire and the Humber have told us that they are concerned about
“the rapid timetable for these reforms, given the huge levels of complexity involved and the radical implications they will have on councils’ ability to fund services to local communities”.
That is why my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) was so right to table the amendments.
Mr Jones
I agree totally with my right hon. Friend. The Bill also has the backdrop of councils having to introduce draconian cuts—County Durham must take £125 million out of its budget over the next four years.
That is alongside the uncertainty in the Bill. Neither hon. Members nor councils know about the regulations, and they will not know exactly how the rebate system will work. When they are budgeting for future years, it is important that councils know what they can do. The time scale in the Bill means that they are walking into the new arrangements blind. They do not know what they must deduct, because we do not have the regulations before us.
George Hollingbery
Having spent 11 years as a local councillor, I can reflect on the fact that in almost no year that I can remember did we have any certainty about our finances. It was all entirely settled by national Government through an incredibly complex system that nobody understood. I am stretched to understand why the hon. Gentleman thinks the new system will be any more confusing.
Mr Jones
I do not know when the hon. Gentleman left local government, but we introduced three-year budgeting, which helped local councils. I agree that under the old system, when I was a councillor in the days when the Tories were last in government, the biggest problem for councils was having to guess what their annual budget would be. I am not sure whether three-year budgets were introduced by my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford), who is in his place, but they gave councils some certainty. The Bill will add more uncertainty. Councils will be asked to second-guess what the system will be, and we will have no opportunity to scrutinise it before it becomes law.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
It is precisely that uncertainty that is unsettling a number of local authorities, including Tameside metropolitan borough council in my constituency. Had we had the opportunity to scrutinise properly the impact of the Government’s changes on various local authorities as part of the process of deliberating on the Bill, we would have been able to assess the winners and losers across the country. Despite the picture that Ministers paint that everybody is a winner and nobody is a loser, the reality is quite the contrary. Over the coming years, as the new mechanism operates, the gap between authorities that win and those that lose will widen. I believe that areas such as mine, and no doubt my hon. Friend’s, will be the losers.
Mr Jones
I agree, and that uncertainty will be a problem not just because councils will not know what the rebate is going to be. It is quite clear that Durham is not going to gain from the new system, and it was interesting to hear the Secretary of State and the Minister say last week that the area would be a net gainer. However, the Secretary of State failed to tell the House—he is very good at that—that he was referring to the last five years’ figures, for some of which time the economy of County Durham was growing. Now, under the coalition Government, it is—
Mr Jones
It is not at all. If the hon. Gentleman comes to my constituency and says that to the 21% of young people who are unemployed, I am sure they will find it very amusing. It is quite clear that given the economies of regions such as the north-east, if local authorities do not know what their compensation will be, they will not be able to make plans.
It is interesting that Government Members seem quite quiet this afternoon, including the Liberal Democrats, who claim to be the party of local government.
Mr Jones
No, and that is possibly because they will have to explain to northern councils why they are supporting measures that will have a terrible effect on their budgets. They sidestep that issue and say that it is all because the matter is covered by the coalition agreement, and then we have the usual deathly silence from them. We need to remind all our constituents on every possible occasion that such draconian cuts could not be got through the House without the support of the Liberal Democrats.
Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)
Would the hon. Gentleman like to tell the House whether he agrees with the principle of local authorities retaining more of their business rates? That is what we are meant to be discussing, and I would very much like to hear his view.
Mr Jones
I think the hon. Lady represents Dorset, and there is a big difference between Dorset and parts of County Durham. Even though there are some very beautiful parts of County Durham, I am sure that Dorset’s economic activity shows it to be far more affluent than parts of County Durham. I support local decisions being taken at a local level, but I do not support a system in which her constituents in wealthier areas will gain at the expense of constituencies such as mine that need support for economic development.
What we heard last week on Second Reading from Government Members was absolutely disgraceful. Conservative Member after Conservative Member referred to local councillors not being interested in economic development. I have to say that I have never yet met one who does not want to increase the economic vibrancy of their area. They put a lot of effort into doing that, and such comments show again the prejudice of Government Members.
The changes to council tax benefit will be a nightmare for councils not just because of the localisation of the system but because of its top-slicing—
Mr Jones
I am sorry, but I think you are chairing the Committee, Mr Amess, not a Liberal Democrat Member who usually has very little to say, and frankly when he does it is not very interesting.
I am talking about the time scale of what is being introduced. We will have to work out the methodology of how the funds are to be distributed. We hear, for example, that pensioners are not going to be included, which will have an effect on some poorer councils, such as the eastern part of County Durham, with large ageing populations. The time scale for the system’s introduction is very limited, and there is uncertainty about exactly how it will happen. Instead, the Bill should have included the schedules, procedures, mechanisms for redistribution and so on.
Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman seems to be arguing that because there is uncertainty, the Bill should be delayed. May I remind him of the words of the chairman of the Local Government Association, which I am sure he has read? He stated:
“The current system of funding local government is incredibly complex and does not meet the needs of all the people we serve.”
He also said:
“Now more than ever, we need to put in place a funding system that will support local public services and generate economic growth.”
Is that not an argument for progressing more quickly rather than for delaying?
Mr Jones
The Conservative party needs to learn lessons, because every time it has dabbled in local government finance it has got its fingers burned. The hon. Gentleman talks about the current system being complicated, but the proposals in the Bill cannot exactly be said to be very simple, and it is clear that it will centralise power into the hands of the Secretary of State and take it away from local councils.
Mr Raynsford
We have heard a rather partial and not very accurate account of the LGA’s view. Perhaps the hon. Member for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher) has not read its briefing. I will not go into the details, because interventions must be brief, but it states that
“the LGA supports amendment 60 which would postpone the introduction of the scheme by 12 months.”
Graham Stringer
None out of ten to the hon. Member for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher).
Christopher Pincher
One fact that is absolutely undeniable is that Durham’s business rate growth has been greater than the national average, so the Bill will help the hon. Gentleman’s constituents, not hinder them.
Mr Jones
I am sorry, but when the hon. Gentleman gets his briefing notes from Conservative central office or wherever, he should perhaps examine how the figures are presented. The Secretary of State is very good at presenting figures. They are actually the figures for the past five years, when we had a growing employment base in County Durham.
Mr Jones
Indeed. Now, we see that the latest unemployment figure is nearly 7.8% for my constituency and nearly 12% for the north-east in general, and businesses are closing. Is the hon. Member for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher) saying that those businesses are somehow going to grow over the next few years as a result of this measure? In fact, councils will lack certainty about how much they will get. The local authority is one of the biggest employers in County Durham, but there has been a reduction in the numbers of people. I think the policy is that by cutting back in local government and public services, all these new jobs will rush forward from the private sector, but today’s figures show that 67,000 people have left the public service in the last quarter, while only 5,000 jobs have been created in the private sector.
As I said on Second Reading about my constituents in the north-east, the Bill will actually help the affluent south. Clearly, it is a damn sight easier to attract business to the likes of Westminster and other economic hotspots in the south-east of England than to parts of County Durham. That is no criticism of the work that local councils do to attract jobs—for instance, with the council’s full support, the area has succeeded in attracting Hitachi trains to Newton Aycliffe in County Durham. I know of the tremendous work that my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) did on that campaign.
The Bill is being rushed through with undue haste. We are expecting councils and local people to walk blindly into the future. The parties in government sometimes try to portray this as a simplified system, but it is not; it will be a centralised and bureaucratic system. We cannot allow a situation to develop in which local people or local government do not know how much money they will get or how the system will work in practice.
Andrew Gwynne
Is not one merit of pausing, delaying and taking stock of the changes that it would allow us to get the baseline starting point absolutely right for each local authority, which is crucial, and is it not the case that using the 2012-13 formula grant model, including the damping, to determine the baseline will, for local authorities such as mine in Tameside, lock in the funding losses arising from the damping exercise and the disproportionate reduction in funding from the 2011-12 and 2012-13 settlements?
Mr Jones
Yes. That would have come out had we had proper pre-legislative scrutiny in Committee. It is the same for County Durham. Under the funding settlement introduced last year by the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats, County Durham lost about £10 million. That will be in the system for ever more now because of the measures in the Bill. Surprisingly, Wokingham council, Surrey council and many others gained from the system. That injustice will be written into the Bill for ever.
Mr Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South) (LD)
I declare an interest as a member of Portsmouth city council and the executive member for economic development. The hon. Gentleman states that the Bill will greatly damage local authorities. Will he reflect on why, over 13 years, the previous Labour Government, who received similar complaints from local authorities, did little or nothing to assist them by putting local finance on a proper footing?
Mr Jones
That is not true. We did. We had a three-year settlement and an increase in the settlement. Through the regional development agency in the north-east, we were putting money into areas such as Country Durham so that they could work with local councils to attract new businesses. I know that the hon. Gentleman does not necessarily agree with everything that the coalition does, but unfortunately, in places such as the north-east, it is taking away the main driver, the RDAs, that local councils could work with to attract more businesses to the north-east.
Mr Hancock
My recollection of those years was that money was taken away from the city of Portsmouth, where there was high unemployment and great deprivation, and that the benefits went to places such as County Durham. We felt for a long time that the formula was very unfair and we campaigned to get it changed, but the Labour Government turned a deaf ear to the pleas from authorities such as Portsmouth which were trying to make a rational case for equalisation and a much fairer distribution.
Mr Jones
But Portsmouth council received a year-on-year increase in its grant. It is interesting to hear a Liberal Democrat argue that deprivation should not be important to how local government money is spent. I would not be surprised to hear that from the Secretary of State because, frankly, I do not think that he cares—for instance, his support for his own Conservative areas at the expense of areas such as the north-east is highly political.
Mr Jones
Exactly. Not for the first time, some of those chickens are coming home to roost. Hopefully, we will have fewer Liberal Democrat “Focus” leaflets claiming credit for everything that goes right and criticising everything else that the previous Government did. Some of those northern councils had Liberal Democrats, but thankfully, in places such as Newcastle and Sheffield, the electorate have seen through them.
In conclusion, the timetable for the Bill needs to be rethought. As suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), if we can take witnesses at this stage, we should consider doing so, because otherwise the same will happen as has happened with a lot of Bills this Session: the Bill will be rushed through here only to be held up in the other place, where the ladies and gentlemen will give it the proper scrutiny that it deserves.
Mr Ward
I want to make just a few comments. I also consider it regrettable that the Committee stage is being taken here and not in one of the Committee Rooms. The quality of debate might have been better in that environment.
I am sympathetic to the amendments on deferment. I want to discuss that point in particular. After many, many years of seeking the change for which most in the House have called, we have before us a radical and important shift in the relationship between local government and central Government, but we face a potentially enormous change of not just a financial nature but a constitutional nature. One of the concerns that I guess we all share is about the unknown consequences of the redistributional impact.
Yes, there are tariffs and top-ups, and we welcome the application of the retail prices index to the baselines for business rates and local authority funding—that is welcome—but actually local government finance is not too complex. Yes, the formula and weightings are complex. We all know about the complexities of what goes into the computer and the figures that come out, but its purpose at the moment is actually pretty simple: to redistribute funds to authorities on the basis of need. That is pretty simple. But we are moving from that system to a new system.
We all welcome, I think, the principle behind localisation. The trouble is that, with many of the things we are facing, the easier it is to accept something in principle, the more difficult it is to challenge the consequences. Because we are talking about such a strong principle, which many of us hold, we are willing to accept some of the consequences, or potential consequences, when we are not fully aware of what they will be. There may or may not be a change if we move from a system based on the allocation of funds by need to one based on allocation by growth in business rates. However one thing we do know is that if things go wrong, it must, by definition, be one that, with the total pot—
Mr Ward
Let me just finish; I shall not be much longer.
I understand all the measures that are built in, but if the total pot is the same and there is a redistribution, it must be to the disadvantage of the beneficiary authorities that receive most of the formula grant. That is a concern, and although it might not affect those authorities for the first few years, because of the baseline protection, the unknown consequences—
Mr Ward
Let me just get through this.
The Bill is not too complex. One of the arguments against having witnesses—it would have been useful to do that—is that we will get the opinions of only those witnesses. The truth is that nobody knows what the outcome of this will be, because it is dependent on the growth in business rates, while the strategy of rebalancing the economy will have implications for different parts of the national economy.
John Healey
On a point of order, Mr Amess. Any written evidence submitted to a Public Bill Committee, and not just the oral evidence taken in its opening sittings, will be circulated to all members of that Committee. May we have your guidance, and then the reassurance of the Minister or the House as appropriate, that any written evidence submitted to this Committee of the whole House will be circulated to all Members, who may all have an interest in participating?
The Temporary Chair (Mr David Amess)
The Standing Order on written evidence does not apply to Committees of the whole House, so I am afraid that I shall have to disappoint the right hon. Gentleman.
Mr Mike Hancock
Further to that point of order, Mr Amess. Is it not possible for the House itself to decide that it would be appropriate for evidence supplied to this Committee to be circulated to all Members?
The Temporary Chair
I hear what the hon. Gentleman has said, and I think that this is something that could be considered on another day. Perhaps it is something that we could put to the Procedure Committee.
John Healey
Further to that point of order, Mr Amess. As the Chairman of this Committee, you will have noticed that the programme order suggests that there will be at least two more part-days for our proceedings. Will you do your best to ensure that the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Portsmouth South (Mr Hancock) is put to the right authorities, so that, if agreed, a decision can be put in place for the final two of these three days in Committee of the whole House?
The Temporary Chair
I will reflect on the point that the right hon. Gentleman has made, and obviously those on the Treasury Bench have heard it. What is proposed might not be possible because of time constraints, but I will certainly reflect on it.
The Temporary Chair
Order. I would remind all hon. Members that this is the mother of all Parliaments, and we conduct ourselves in a civilised way. I am aware that something has been happening that is outside what is normal debate, but I would ask hon. Members please to calm down.
Mr Ward
The issue that I want the Minister to consider is not so much to do with the resets—whether they should be every 10 years or every three years—because the reset implies that something needs changing, and the truth is that we do not know whether anything will. What is much more important, as we venture into the unknown, is how quickly everything is reviewed. That might be after one year, or two years, and not necessarily the three years proposed by the amendment. We need to have clear evidence as soon as possible about the impact and the consequences of what is proposed in the Bill.
Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate, Mr Amess. I just want to pick up on the point made by the hon. Member for Bradford East (Mr Ward) about the principle of this Bill. I think that he said that most people in the Committee agree with it. I agree with the principle that local authorities should do all they can to promote economic prosperity and growth in their areas. I am not sure that I necessarily agree with the principle of retention and localisation of business rates, although I will not repeat my concerns about that point, which I expressed on Second Reading last week.
I support the amendment tabled by my right hon. and hon. Friends on the Front Bench, because it is overly optimistic, shall we say, of the Government to think that they will be able to get this legislation through and that councils will be able to put the requisite systems in place to introduce the new system of finance in 2013. If we are to have this new system, the commencement date should be moved back, to 2014.
Last week on Second Reading we heard a lot about how the issue of local government finance had been much debated and how the previous Government commissioned the Lyons review. We had an historical “tour de force”, going through the history of local government finance, even referring to the work of Layfield in the 1970s. Government Members seemed to suggest that there was a case for just getting on and doing something to localise business rate retention, but doing something for the sake of it is not the same as doing something because it is the right thing to do and because it will work. The complexity of the new scheme that is being proposed will not make the system of local government finance any more transparent to local councils and councillors, or even the general public, because what we have before us is a system with a whole range of baselines, tariffs, top-ups, levies, set-asides and safety net payments.
Andrew Gwynne
My hon. Friend mentioned the issue of setting the baseline. It is absolutely crucial that we get that right, so that local authorities are not put at an immediate disadvantage. She talked about the tariffs and top-up system. However, the introduction of the new system is also predicated on every local authority in the country having the same council tax base and the same ability to raise income from council tax if it faces a reduction in its business rates. Local authorities such as Tameside—where more than 90% of the properties are in band A or B—do not have the same ability to raise extra income from council tax, should they lose out on the business rate formula.
Heidi Alexander
My hon. Friend makes a very fair point, and if I am correct, those on our Front Bench have tabled amendments for debate later that deal with exactly that point.
We need to take longer to scrutinise the Bill and for the proposals within it to come into force, because I would contest that this Government do not know whether they are coming or going in relation to local government finance and the retention of business rates, or how this proposal will stimulate growth in local economies.
Mr Kevan Jones
What is clear from the Bill is that the Secretary of State will not only retain but increase his powers to interfere in local government finance. The question of how a future Secretary of State should use those powers will be of great concern to many councils.
Heidi Alexander
I think it will be, and that very point was made last week. The Government claim to be localising but they are, in effect, centralising.
I thought one of the most telling points on Second Reading last week related to where the Government are coming from with this Bill and what they understand local authorities to be doing to promote economic development. The most telling point was when the shadow Secretary of State stood up to expose this Government’s inconsistencies on what local authorities are doing currently. He pointed out that one document published by the Government said:
“We know that local authorities are keen to grow their local economies”,
while another said:
“local authorities are generally reluctant to...promote economic growth”—[Official Report, 10 January 2012; Vol. 538, c. 91.]
The Government are speaking with a forked tongue on this issue, and if the rationale is not clear, why are we going through this process of rushing to get this measure on the statute book and forcing local authorities to implement a scheme that might not have the impact on local economic growth that the Government want?
I think the Government are unclear about what local authorities are doing now to promote economic development, and I think they are unclear about the impact of their own cuts on economic development services in councils, which, as we all know, are a non-statutory service. I know that difficult decisions are having to be taken. My local authority lost a town centre management team, which was a liaison point between the business community and the council. That happened precisely because the Government imposed unfair cuts on local authorities in Lewisham to the tune of £80 million over the next three years out of a £270 million revenue budget.
When the Secretary of State came before the Select Committee in September last year, I questioned him closely about what he anticipated local authorities would do differently from what they are doing now to encourage economic growth and development in their areas as a result of this proposal. I argued that these measures were being rushed through, that we need more time and that the Government need to be clearer about what they are doing. Let me share with the Committee what the Secretary of State said to me when I questioned him in the Select Committee. I had to question him three times. I was asking a specific question about what local authorities would do differently. The Secretary of State said:
“I think they would see the reward.”
I said:
“No. What would they do?”
He then said:
“Please do not badger me like this; I am a sensitive man.”
[Interruption.] Well, the Minister says that it was a joke, but I can tell him that the Secretary of State’s following paragraph most certainly was a joke. To be honest, it was a complete load of nonsense. The Secretary of State could not answer my question, and he started to talk about sea shanties. I think this cuts to the heart—[Interruption.] I know, it was mad; I could not fathom it at all, to be honest.
My point is that Ministers are not clear about what they expect local authorities to change as a result of the new system of local government financing. They may have started with the best will in the world, but we have a hugely convoluted and complex system that, as I said earlier, contains a whole series of assumptions about baselines, about which authorities are tariff authorities and which are top-ups, about how much the set aside is going to be and for how long it will apply, about how much the levies will be, about who decides on what counts as disproportionate gain, and so forth. The position we are left in is vague, opaque and no clearer than under our current system.
John Healey
My hon. Friend is making a powerful case about the volatility, the unpredictability and the rogue factors that can throw out revenue from a business rate base. Is not the real argument for delaying the commencement of these provisions connected to that, combined with the fact that 2013-14, when this system is supposed to come into place, is also year three of local councils having to deal with the spending review settlement introduced by this Government? The finances are very tight, so predictability and certainty will be key to councils planning their way through that. Those are the really powerful arguments that my hon. Friend is making to justify putting back the commencement, as recommended by our Front-Bench team.
Heidi Alexander
My right hon. Friend expresses the case incredibly well; I agree with everything he said.
Have we not seen examples in this Parliament of the Government taking a pause—taking a break—and saying, “This is quite a complex piece of legislation”? I am referring to the Health and Social Care Bill. While this Bill might not be as sexy—I do not really think that the proposed changes to the NHS are in any way sexy; indeed, I think they are destructive and very controversial—these proposals are very controversial as well. I suggest that the Government pause and listen to what local authorities are saying.
John Healey
My hon. Friend amplifies her case. On Second Reading, she told the House something from which this Committee would benefit. I believe she pointed out that the ninth largest business in her borough was the local police station, while the biggest business rate payer was a business with a small office above a bowling alley, which happened to be the national headquarters of a national firm. That illustrated perfectly how contingent a local council’s business rate take is on accidents and other contingencies of business location and so forth. It showed how unpredictable and volatile the business rate stream can be.
Heidi Alexander
I was not going to repeat my comments on Second Reading, but my right hon. Friend tempts me into reiterating some of my remarks about the differing ability of different councils to promote and develop their local economies. Sometimes the business rate take will be dependent on a whole range of different things, not just on what a local authority is or is not doing. I suggest that Ministers go back to their geography lessons and learn what we all learned at school about why businesses locate in different parts of the country and how success can breed success so that areas with a large business rate are likely to grow much faster than those with a smaller rate. I know that the Government propose to check disproportionate growth and the effect of having a larger business base to start with, but it is undoubtedly the case that different parts of the country have different abilities to attract and grow businesses.
The Government’s policies are making those differences even more explicit. Last year saw the National Insurance Contributions Bill, which gives a national insurance holiday to small businesses that are starting up outside London and the south-east, so it is not really a level playing field for local authorities. A small business setting up in, say, Middlesbrough or Birmingham might be able to get a tax break, while a similar business setting up in Lewisham might be operating in exactly the same type of area, employing exactly the same number of people with the same turnover and the same profit margins, yet not get such a break. Is that company as likely to locate in an area where there is a tax break as in one where there is not, like London?
Alison Seabeck
My hon. Friend makes her point well. The Government’s left hand does not know what their right hand is doing. Let us consider transport policy and the potential impact of transport infrastructure investment in benefiting one area over another. No high-speed rail link is proposed for Plymouth, for example. Even though Plymouth is struggling and needs good transport interconnections, the money is not going there. Such issues are hugely important in businesses’ decisions about where to locate or expand.
Heidi Alexander
I completely agree with my hon. Friend. I tried on Second Reading to make some of those points. Local economies grow because of a range of factors, including transport and the availability and type of land—it is not all about what a local authority is doing. One can argue that a local authority should foster economic growth through its planning policies and decisions, but the vast majority of councils across the country do that already. The partial retention of business rates will not stimulate local authorities to think, “Hang on, we need to look at our planning policies to decide what more we can do to foster economic growth.”
George Hollingbery
As I mentioned on Second Reading, I had exactly that reaction from Havant borough council, which is by no means a wealthy council. When I explained the changes, it was enthusiastic and said explicitly, “We will now have to re-examine how we plan. We will have to think about what we will do to stimulate business.” It was excited and believed that the proposal would make a difference to its policies towards businesses in the local area.
Heidi Alexander
I have not had the same reaction from my local authority, although the hon. Gentleman and I represent very different parts of the country. If the Government’s proposal prompts local authorities to think more positively about what they can do, that is all well and good, but it is not the whole answer. I would also urge caution, as developments need to be appropriate. The benefits of increased business rates as a result of new commercial development, arguably in unsuitable locations, might drive more local authorities to grant planning permission for unsuitable developments. We need the right development in the right place, with local government financed in a way that allows it to provide the services needed by the local population.
Andrew Gwynne
My hon. Friend is getting to the heart of why a pause is needed for deliberation on the possible impacts across the country of such far-reaching changes: some local authorities might have an over-reliance on one sector in developing economic regeneration plans. In my local authority, Tameside, the largest business rate take is from IKEA, the second largest is from Morrisons, and the third largest is from the Crown Point North retail development in Denton. The three main beneficiaries of the proposal would therefore be retail developments. There is no capacity for more retail on such a scale in Tameside without destroying the market across Greater Manchester, of which Tameside is an integral part.
Heidi Alexander
My hon. Friend is right to ask whether the proposal will result in the development and business growth that the country needs. There are only so many supermarkets and out-of-town retail centres that the country needs. It was suggested on Second Reading that the kind of economic growth that we would ideally like has a lower business rate take. In my constituency, I am struck by the small companies that start up in people’s homes—Lewisham does not have large tracts of land where businesses are located. The Government need to think hard about the development that the proposal would stimulate. I support the amendment.
Mr Mike Hancock
Like many Members, I was disappointed by how the proposal has been handled. One reason why I voted against the Bill on Second Reading was that I felt it unfair that something as important and precious as local government should be treated in such a cavalier way. Rather than being dealt with on the Floor of the House, a Bill of such size warrants close scrutiny in Committee, including oral evidence sessions. I am delighted, Mr Amess, that you are prepared to take to the usual channels the important proposal that the evidence that has been submitted should be offered to all Members of the House.
During my 40 years’ experience of local authorities, every Government have used local government as an excuse. Time after time, they have talked about devolving power, but they have devolved nothing more than blame, and responsibility without resources. That has plagued local government for four decades. I regret that once again a matter as important as the future of local government finance is being bulldozed through the House in this way. It is unfair, and it will lead to great problems.
Ministers cannot begin to understand how difficult times are for local administrations that have to put together a budget for not one but three years. As we have heard, implementation will come when the third year of the round of cuts will bite deepest in many local authorities. Do Ministers truly believe that a local authority such as mine, Portsmouth, which daily challenges the market to bring inward investment to the city, is not doing all it can to make it clear that we are open for business and actively to support economic development projects? We would welcome anyone to come and see what the city has to offer. It is an insult to local government to suggest that such activity is not happening, and I resent being party to a coalition that is giving that impression. I am surprised, to say the least, at the comments from the Local Government Association, and disappointed that it is not being more forceful in defending the rights of local authorities and challenging this type of legislation.
I hope that there is still time for Ministers to think again. I chaired Committee proceedings on the Health and Social Care Bill, and was delighted at the end of those Committee proceedings, which were the longest since 1997, that the Government gave a commitment to the House and the Committee that they would take time to think again. The implications of much of this Bill leave too many unanswered questions. There is no detail about how the safety net will be implemented and how such judgments will be made. We are told that local authorities will be able to apply to be beneficiaries of the safety net procedures, but not when they have to make that application, how long a decision will take, or exactly when or how the money will materialise. Such questions would have been dealt with in Committee in greater detail. Ministers would have been able to give members of the Committee detailed responses to questions. However, three days’ consideration on the Floor of the House does not give experts in the Department enough time to brief Ministers properly to answer legitimate points raised by hon. Members. That cannot be the right way to deal with as important a matter as local government finance.
On Second Reading, the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) spoke about the Layfield report. I remember hearing Frank Layfield express his views on local government finance. At the time of his report, we all thought that it would be the turning point, that there would be proper transparency about local government financing, and that all local authorities, irrespective of where they were in the country, would be able to say, “We get a fair deal from Government.” It was said that everyone would know the formula for the funding of local government, but here we are, nearly 40 years on, and it is still hidden in mystique. The Bill perpetuates that situation although the formula should not be anything other than transparent, and council and business rate payers demand that transparency. I am at a loss to understand why the Government, whom I support, are not prepared to give local government the trust that it deserves, and reveal how they are calculating the formula.
I do not want to see the disparity that was referred to by the hon. Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) between his city and the city of Portsmouth, because I believe that the problems of poor people in my city and those who are striving to keep their businesses alive are the same as those faced by his constituents. We need an equal share of the resources that are available to local government, but they must be decided on the basis of a formula that is readily available for examination. Such a formula does not exist at present, and unfortunately the Bill does not make me feel at all enthusiastic about the possibility that it will exist in the future. For that reason, I have grave reservations about my ability to support it at any stage.
Mr Raynsford
Let me first draw attention to my interests as declared in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, and specifically to my role as a columnist for the Municipal Journal—the MJ.
I hope and believe that when the Minister sums up, he will have to reflect on the fact that every Member who has spoken—with the sole exception of the hon. Member for Poole (Mr Syms), to whose contribution I shall return in a moment—has expressed real reservations about the timetable that is being adopted, in the context of both parliamentary consideration of the Bill and implementation of the measures contained in it. That is fairly remarkable, given that it was supposed to be a flagship Bill granting local government more freedom, and a measure that local government should welcome. Indeed, the hon. Member for Poole, whom I have known for many years and for whom I have a great deal of respect, made that the key point of his argument. He seemed to be saying, “This is a step in the right direction: let us get on with it, because it gives more discretion to local government.” The hon. Gentleman must wonder—as, indeed, I hope Ministers will wonder—why, if the Bill is of such benefit to local government, local government is so apprehensive about it. He must wonder why Members on his own side of the House, albeit on the Liberal Democrat Benches, have been so critical of the timetable. Let us think about that.
It is not just the organisation representing London councils, which happens to be Labour controlled at present, that has been highly critical of the timetable and has urged delay. I must remind the hon. Member for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher), who suggested that the Local Government Association was wholly in favour of rapid action, that in its evidence it specifically supported an amendment that would delay implementation of the benefit changes until 2014. Even the LGA, a Conservative-controlled body, has expressed strong reservations about the timetable, while local government experts from whom we would normally expect to hear in evidence sessions are amazingly critical.
A week ago there was a very good article in Public Finance by Sarah Philips, who was an adviser to the Lyons inquiry and knows the issues thoroughly and deeply. She made some telling comments, such as these:
“The government’s repeated use of the term ‘local’ in relation to the planned changes hasn’t been enough to persuade councils that these will be an improvement. Current local government funding is incomprehensible, but these proposals taken together are even more complex and opaque. They have been criticised by councils, commentators and the communities and local government select committee—on most of the criteria the government set for itself and others… ‘Rich’ councils were looking forward to keeping most of their business rates and being free of central control. ‘Poorer’ councils were hoping for some continuation of equalisation, to recognise the huge range of needs and council tax revenues and their limited scope to increase business rates.”
Many of my hon. Friends have made the same points during the debate. Sarah Philips continues:
“The proposed tariff and top-ups and central levy limit incentives for growth, yet do not give much hope that services in ‘poorer’ areas can continue undiminished—or that it will be possible to prevent a two-tier system.
The proposals acknowledge only implicitly the risks of localised funding. In Europe and Australia, many smaller authorities and those in poorer areas have struggled to provide quality services and many have gone bankrupt or merged. The plans threaten the technical and financial viability of small district councils. Losing Housing Benefit will remove an economy of scale with processing the council tax support—limiting the ability to maintain a corporate centre.”
Those are just some of the comments that have been made by a real expert on local government finance—an officer who is clearly extremely anxious about the implications of the Bill. I hope that Government Members who have suggested that we should get on with it will pause to think about the serious risks attached to such action.
The hon. Member for Meon Valley (George Hollingbery) said in an intervention that local authorities had had to cope with annual changes in settlements in the past. As was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), our Government changed that and adopted a three-year cycle, but in any event there is a fundamental difference between an annual change in the settlement—which affects the actual amount of grant that an authority will receive for that year—and a complete change in the administrative system. The separation between council tax benefit and universal credit will require the establishment of a whole new administration and an entirely different system for the making and processing of applications, along with different computer programmes to determine eligibility and provide for the granting of discounts.
Mr Kevan Jones
Another element contributing to the uncertainty that will characterise the proposed new system is the possibility of fluctuations in business rates throughout the year. The Secretary of State implied that councils would somehow be compensated if a large employer disappeared—Alcan in Northumberland, for instance, is unfortunately being closed—but the Bill contains no details about that compensation.
Mr Raynsford
There are certainly no details about how the compensation arrangements and the safety net procedure will work. Nor is there any indication that central Government are prepared to accept that they are putting local authorities in an impossible position by proposing that they should take all the downside risk of a serious increase in demand for council tax benefit in any one year which they cannot themselves have anticipated.
What will happen to a local authority if a local business closes? What will happen if there is a serious rise in unemployment in the district, and as a consequence a large number of additional claims for council tax benefit are received? The authority will have no safety net. All that the Government propose is the possibility of some sharing or pooling arrangement with neighbourhood authorities to offset the risk. That is not compensating local government; it is local government having to help itself out in order to cope with the risk that is being transferred to it by central Government.
Alison Seabeck
I must first draw Members’ attention to my indirect interest in the interest declared by my right hon. Friend. I should have done that earlier, but I did not get around to it.
Might not a pooling arrangement lead to different problems popping up in different authorities at different times during the year? Exactly when and how will the safety net begin to operate in all those individual instances, and will authorities really want to share such a degree of risk?
Mr Raynsford
There are two different elements. One is the safety net system, which the Government have outlined without giving us the details, and which is designed to cope with circumstances in which there is a serious reduction in non-domestic rate revenue because of changes beyond a local authority’s control. That safety net exists, at least in principle. There might also be changes in benefit demand. Indeed, both of those elements might arise, as there might be a reduction in business rates because of the closure of a business and an increase in benefit claims because the people employed by that business are now out of work and therefore require help with their council tax. There could therefore be a double whammy. There is no safety net from Government to help local authorities with the second element. Instead, there is only the suggestion that there might be some pooling of risk, which is an unacceptable response to a very serious problem.
Mr Kevan Jones
I agree with my right hon. Friend. There is also no detail as to how the pooling of risk will work, such as whether it will be a voluntary system or enforced by the Government. In my region of the north-east, Newcastle and Sunderland would probably pool together only if they were forced to do so by Government diktat.
Mr Raynsford
I am not going to go into the relations between different local authorities. My hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) and I are constituency neighbours and I am sure our local authorities would want to co-operate in the most friendly way, although I am not sure whether that attitude would be replicated by all authorities in other parts of the country.
I was responding to the comments of the hon. Member for Meon Valley by observing that this change is much more complex than just an annual change in the settlement. Substantial administrative change is involved, too. Capita is a company that provides a lot of revenue services and undertakes benefit work for local authorities so it might be expected to see business opportunities in this change, but it is sounding the alarm about the risks involved in trying to programme this major change on an impossibly tight timetable.
A lot of detail is involved in the specification of the scheme, and the Government will impose the requirements that there are to be no losses for certain categories of participant, no inconsistencies in respect of the universal credit, and no disincentives to work. It is difficult to see how that can be achieved if there is to be a 10% cut in the overall council tax benefit. Pensioners are to be entirely protected and they represent more than a third of recipients, so it is hard to see how the other recipients, those of working age who are in employment or looking for work, will not be subject to cuts. How can a commercial company, such as a software firm, that is helping local authorities to prepare to administer these schemes possibly get arrangements properly in place under such circumstances? That is the real challenge to the Government.
As I said on Second Reading, the Government are risking a repeat of the fiasco that occurred when the housing benefit scheme was first introduced by a Conservative Government in 1982-83. That was rushed. The detailed specification and implementation arrangements were not available in time and there was chaos across the country. There were appalling examples of people being left without money for weeks and months, and people facing eviction from private homes because they were not getting the benefit they ought to have had. There was huge hardship, and there were also serious problems in authorities throughout the country.
I say in all sincerity to the Government that they are taking a very serious risk in pressing ahead with these changes to a very tight timetable without giving Members the opportunity to scrutinise and question the detailed arrangements, such as the specification of the scheme and the safety net. We are not being given the opportunity to test the provisions so as to find any weaknesses, yet local government will be expected to implement them to an impossibly tight timetable.
I say to the hon. Member for Poole that the Opposition are not using the timetable issue as an excuse. There is a genuine anxiety that is shared across local government. We must remember that the change will affect not only local authorities but their residents. Some 6 million people receive council tax benefit, which is one of the largest numbers of recipients of any category of benefit in the country. All these people are being put at risk by the Government’s unwise timetable.
I urge the Minister to give further thought to that point, and to heed the Select Committee’s sound advice to defer implementation for a year. I also know that Liberal Democrat Members have reservations, and I therefore urge them to do the right thing by joining us in opposing this rushed and unwise timetable.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill)
It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair, Mr Amess. You and I know something of local government from our experiences of it over the years. We therefore know that the issue of local government finance has been around the houses, as we say in our part of the world, for a very long time. At long last, something is being done about it.
I say to the hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) that I do not accept the premise that underpins her arguments. Throughout this debate the Opposition have raised specious arguments and engaged in manufactured indignation. The reality is that the Government are bringing forward a serious and important reform, which the Opposition are seeking to delay. That is not in the interests of local government, who suffer under the thoroughly unsatisfactory, opaque and unfair system Labour bequeathed, which denied local authorities the opportunity to have a portion of the business rates localised for their benefit. The Opposition want to delay the introduction of a valuable growth incentive for local government, which would also encourage national growth, so be in the interests of the national economy.
Robert Neill
Let me make a little more progress first.
It is a little cheeky of Opposition Members to say that this change is being rushed forward. Much of the first part of the hon. Lady’s opening speech was taken up with a complaint that somehow less scrutiny of a Bill is possible if it is considered on the Floor of the House, when every Member can participate, than if it is sent upstairs into Committee. Is there a precedent for that, however? Yes, as a matter of fact there is, and it was under the previous Government. Their Digital Economy Act 2010 had 50 clauses, three of which were taken on the Floor of the House. That did not happen in the early part of the Session either; instead, that contentious Bill was considered in the wash-up. I will not take any lessons from the hon. Lady’s specious arguments, therefore.
Helen Jones
As the Minister argues that it is important to get these provisions through quickly to provide incentives for economic development, what does he think local authorities would be doing after they are introduced that they are not doing now?
Robert Neill
The hon. Lady fails to grasp the basic principle underlying the Bill. The problem at present is that local authorities have no incentive to encourage growth. Instead, they potentially have a burden. They have no ability to grow the tax base.
Robert Neill
I will give way again shortly.
Unfortunately, throughout this debate Opposition Members have articulated their old mindset. It is a mindset that does down local government, and I find that surprising given the experience some Opposition Members have of that. They do not seem to recognise that most local authorities want to advance their local economies even though they currently get no revenue benefit from doing so. We will make a key difference by giving them a tool to get such benefits.
Mr Syms
Is not one of the major changes that there will be an incentive for ordinary rate payers and electors to support a particular scheme? There is currently no incentive for them to do so because there is no financial benefit for people who contribute to local government.
Robert Neill
My hon. Friend is entirely right. Unfortunately, under the previous Government there was a belief that we had to create an increasingly centralised and complex system to deliver results. The party that is criticising us now brought in capping and the comprehensive area assessment, which trammelled local authorities rather than freed them. I can understand, however, why this is a sensitive topic for Opposition Members. In their 1997 election manifesto they said they would localise the business rate, and they spent 13 years not doing so. Some of the principal architects of that commitment are sitting on the Opposition Benches in today’s debate, so I can understand that they might have a bit of a guilty conscience.
Robert Neill
I shall give way to the hon. Lady, as she may not have been here during that time—although I do not entirely exempt her from what I said.
Heidi Alexander
I certainly was not here when the previous Administration were in government, but I would like to give the Minister another opportunity to answer the question put to him by my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) from the Front Bench about what exactly a local authority would be doing differently under these proposals from what they are doing now. If this is about planning policy, what evidence does he have to suggest that granting permissions for extra commercial floor space results in an increased business growth take?
Robert Neill
The hon. Lady must simply not have been listening to my hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Mr Syms), who made the point perfectly that our proposal is a desirable and a good thing. I know it is difficult for her to get this point, but two things are involved. First, we are giving an incentive back to local authorities. Secondly, we are giving local authorities an additional tool in the box of their financial levers. I would have thought that she would have recognised that from her long experience in local government.
Robert Neill
I will give way once to the hon. Gentleman and then I shall make some progress.
Graham Jones
The Minister talks about business growth, but given the changes in the national planning policy framework does he agree that this measure may be an incentive to develop commercial premises on greenfield sites, more so than in the past, and that it might override planning priorities?
Robert Neill
Absolutely not, and to see that the hon. Gentleman has only to think about two things, the first of which is planning policy. Any planning application has to be in accord with the planning policies that are set out—both in the local plan and in our new national planning policy framework—which give protection against ideas such as he mentions. Secondly, we cannot create a market and demand where there is none, although perhaps he does not get that fact, and so neither of the things he mentions would occur. Our approach enables and incentivises local authorities to work much more closely with their business communities on an ongoing basis.
It is very surprising to hear such a degree of criticism from Labour Members, because they need only look at what is done in most of the United Kingdom’s competitor countries to see that, in general, a closer alignment of local funding mechanisms with local business growth advantages the local economy. That is a basic proposition and they just do not seem to want to take it on board.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
Unfortunately, this debate seems to have got muddled and become a discussion of two lots of dates. One relates to the retention of business rates, a move which I wholeheartedly support; I believe that we should get on with it as fast as we can. However, we also need to address the issue raised by the right hon. Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford) about the implementation of systems to provide council tax benefit. Hon. Members from all parts of the House, and those in local government, have genuine concerns about that implementation and about the ability of local authorities to develop the systems to provide the localisation of council tax benefit. Will the Minister give an answer on that issue?
Robert Neill
I shall deal with both those points and give a little detail as to why the suggestion that we are rushing is not well-founded. It is worth remembering that the Government consulted widely on this proposal, and let me deal first with the point about business rate retention.
Last year, we set out a detailed consultation document outlining our proposals, and the local government information unit has recognised that we have amended a number of our proposals on tariffs, set-asides and top-ups to reflect those matters. We issued eight highly detailed technical papers, to which we received some 461 substantial responses. The idea that there has not been very full engagement with the local government sector simply does not hold water. Indeed, there have been collaborations and discussions between officials of my Department and the local authority organisations throughout the process. To deal with the design of the systems and the regulations that go with them we have set up an official-level working group, which includes representatives of the Department, the Local Government Association, the Society of District Council Treasurers, the Society of County Treasurers and the other financial bodies—so the point is specifically being worked on. The timetable is challenging, but the ability to return a proportion of the business rates to local government is a really important tool, not only to give local authorities greater resilience in their funding streams, but for ensuring national growth.
Robert Neill
I have given way to the hon. Gentleman once already.
It is also worth remembering, in the context of other points made, that we are sticking to the existing timetable that applies to the local government finance settlement process. I understand the frustrations of my hon. Friends the Members for Bradford East (Mr Ward) and for Portsmouth South (Mr Hancock) about the suffering that everyone in local government has undergone in the past few years, but I do not think that keeping the current flawed floor blocks and formula grant model for another year would benefit anyone. I can certainly assure them that we will work with the local government sector and the professional members and officers as we go forward.
Before the new scheme is introduced in April 2013, local authorities will be consulted on their baseline funding at the end of 2012, and after a debate in this House, where scrutiny will be provided, they will receive their final settlement early in 2013. So there is no change to the current timelines that local authorities have to work on. Of course there is plenty of precedent for developing regulations as the Bill is taken forward, and they, in turn, will be subject to scrutiny in this House. This is an enabling Bill, just as the Local Government Finance Bill was in 1988; we are following the precedent.
Helen Jones
This interesting debate has had some detailed contributions from my hon. and right hon. Friends, many of whom have extensive experience in local government. All we have really heard from Government Members is the hon. Member for Poole (Mr Syms) saying, “These are the normal Opposition tactics.” It is quite right for an Opposition to highlight flaws in a Bill, and this Bill is full of flaws. The Minister gets very excitable but he has not provided an answer on these flaws. He will not provide an answer as to why it is so important to get these provisions up and running in 2013 and what local authorities would do differently in terms of economic development then from what they do now.
Robert Neill
Why did the hon. Lady’s Government never follow through on their election pledge and localise the business rate, when they had 13 years to do so?
Helen Jones
Coming from a member of the party that nationalised the business rates in the first place, that question shows real cheek. It is no good the hon. Gentleman getting so aggravated now when his party nationalised the rates in the first place.
The Minister will not answer questions on other points, either. He will not answer the question about the lack of certainty for local authorities in the provisions. He knows that it might not be possible to bring them in on time, and so does the Secretary of State, as clause 1 retains the power to delay implementation. If the Government were confident about being able to bring the provisions in at the right time, they would not need that power.
My hon. Friends have made the case very clearly for how complex and opaque the proposed change is, for the risks it poses to the whole local government system and for the unforeseen consequences that might result. I have heard nothing from the Minister to change our minds, so we will therefore seek to press the amendment to a Division.
Question put, That the amendment be made.
The Temporary Chair (Mr David Amess)
Before the debate starts, I should tell the Committee that I was fairly lax about the range of the debate that we have just had, so if hon. Members wish to contribute to the clause stand part debate, I hope they will bear that in mind.
Robert Neill
I will endeavour to deal with the clause stand part debate as swiftly as I can. Clause 1 sets up the necessary part of the scheme. As is often the way with a finance Bill, it establishes the framework, which is then covered in the regulations. Schedule 1, which we shall come to shortly, sets out most of the detail. I suspect that the issues between us have largely been debated in relation to the amendment and the principle. I am happy to respond to any points that hon. Members may wish to raise.
Helen Jones
The Minister is right to say that the clause sets out the framework for the Bill, and that earlier we debated most of the issues between us. I welcome the fact that the regulations will be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure in the House. That is helpful, but we stick to our view that the Government are trying to introduce the provisions in the Bill too fast and that there is still a great deal of uncertainty for local councils. We will debate those issues on further amendments so I shall not detain the Committee now.
Annette Brooke
I want to place on record, in the debate on clause 1, how important it is to reform local government finance, to do it in a timely fashion and to do it in such a way that it both incentivises and equalises. Those principles are firmly embodied in the framework. We have heard it said that the retention of business rates will not incentivise. I wonder why the previous Government introduced LABGI—the local authority business growth incentives scheme—which rewarded local government for business expansion, but not very efficiently. It was not a built-in system, which has to be better. I therefore found some of the comments odd, in the light of that recent policy.
Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab)
There is general consensus that the local government system of funding needs to be reviewed, but does the hon. Lady agree that people will be suspicious if that has not been done through independent analysis and by people who can be trusted to make the right decisions? That is what previous Governments have done and is exactly what this Government are not proposing to do. They intend to impose a system that has not been scrutinised.
Annette Brooke
I believe the Minister explained earlier how the detailed proposals would be scrutinised later in the process of setting the 2013 terms of the revision. What I want to see in the end is a more transparent scheme. That is extremely important, so that local councils are not continually trying to find little bits here, there and everywhere that they can come up and lobby about. We need clarity. I am pleased with the framework.
Robert Neill
I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke). It is important that we move forward. The hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) is right. The affirmative procedure will apply to the matters that come under the Bill. It is worth saying that the degree of transparency on the one hand and fairness on the other is governed by, for example, the changes to the central and local share split, which will come through shortly, and the operation of the tariffs and top-ups. Those will be included in the local government finance report, and that too will be subject to parliamentary scrutiny in the usual way each year, so it is a clear and transparent system.
Mr Raynsford
What circumstances led the Government to include subsection (7), which allows the Secretary of State to substitute a later financial year for the implementation date of the Bill, and in what circumstances might they make use of it?
Robert Neill
That sort of belt-and-braces procedure is not at all uncommon. It is our firm intention to press ahead with implementation from 2013 so that local authorities and the national economy can benefit from the Bill. As my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole said, the desirability to move to a more transparent system away from the existing model was recognised by the Lyons inquiry, which was set up by the previous Government. It recommended a move towards a localisation of the business rate, and we are taking an important step in that direction.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 1 accordingly ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 1
Local retention of non-domestic rates
John Healey
I beg to move amendment 46, page 11, line 31, leave out ‘may not exceed’ and insert ‘should equal’.
The Temporary Chair (John Robertson)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: Government amendments 1 and 2.
Amendment 44, page 11, line 32, at end add—
‘(5) Such an amount should only be paid in place of other grants to local government if the Secretary of State is satisfied that the overall needs of local government will be met.’.
Amendment 45, page 11, line 32, at end add—
‘(5) The amount debited under subsection (3) must not be greater than any amount debited under subsection (3) for the previous financial year.’.
Amendment 19, page 12, line 20, at end insert—
(c) in determining the central share and the local share for any relevant authority, the Secretary of State must have regard to—
(i) the level of need in that authority,
(ii) the likely capacity of the authority to benefit from business rate growth, and
(iii) the council tax base of the authority.
Any assessment of the level of need in the authority shall include—
(iv) the ranking of the local authority in the Index of Multiple Deprivation,
(v) the level of unemployment within the authority’s area,
(vi) the proportion of adults with a limiting long-term illness within the authority’s area,
(vii) the number of adults in receipt of social care within the authority’s area,
(viii) the number of looked-after children within the authority, and
(ix) the level of child poverty within the authority’s area.’.
Amendment 37, page 12, line 20, at end insert—
(c) The Secretary of State must for each year, and for the subsequent two years in relation to each billing authority in England, determine an indicative share for the subsequent two years.’.
Amendment 38, page 12, line 20, at end insert—
(c) the percentages referred to in (a) and (b) above shall be determined following full consultation with local government.’.
Amendment 36, page 13, leave out lines 1 to 4.
Amendment 39, page 15, line 17, leave out from ‘must’ to end of line 19 and insert
‘prepare and publish an assessment of the level of need in each local authority, as defined in paragraph 4(c) above. The Secretary of State must—
(a) lay the report containing the assessment before the House at least 14 sitting days in advance of the publication of the Local Government Finance Report, and
(b) notify such representatives of local government as the Secretary of State thinks fit of the publication of the report on need and the detail of the basis of calculation in the Local Government Finance Report.’.
Amendment 26, page 17, line 37, at end insert—
‘(4A) The Secretary of State must also lay before the House of Commons his or her assessment of the impact which any such report will have on the level of service provision in any local authority to which it applies.
John Healey
It is a pleasure to serve on this Committee of the whole House under your chairmanship, Mr. Robertson, and that of your colleague, Mr. Amess.
Amendment 46 is a probing amendment in an important group of amendments that the Committee will discuss. I have a number of questions for the Minister, which I hope he will be able to answer when he replies, but if not, I hope that he will answer in writing, as would usually be the case. I notice that two of the amendments are among the 17 that the Government have already tabled at this very early stage to their own Bill. In this case they correct not just drafting errors, but quite serious errors in basic sums. The Minister can speak to those himself when he contributes to the debate.
Amendment 46 and the rest of the group reflect four consistent concerns about this part of the Bill on business rates. First, it will create a greater uncertainty for local government in its flow of funding and its ability to plan financially, and therefore its capacity to cope with the funding squeeze now and foreseeably in the next few years. It undermines an essential stability in funding for sensible longer-term planning and sensible long-term service reform and change.
Secondly, the amendments reflect the distrust of central Government with regard to the use of the business rates funding stream as a cash cow to help to cover the cost of failures in economic policy when revenue streams from other sources fall off, as we have seen during the last 12 months.
Mr Watts
If an area faces the wholesale closure of some of its industries, that obviously creates demand for the local authority’s services. Is it not a fact that such a local authority will lose money by the transfer to central Government and through the loss of business rates, and will therefore be less able to respond to the needs that are created by the wholesale closure of those industries, which we have seen in parts of the country?
John Healey
My hon. Friend, as a former leader of St Helens council, knows a great deal about the local government finance system and the pressures on local government. He may not have heard my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford) in the last debate refer to what has just been described as a double whammy. In other words, there may be a loss of potential income at the same time as, and as a result of, the event that causes a greater need and demand for the services that have to be funded through that revenue stream. That is a concern.
I want to ensure that the Committee is clear that this is a fundamental shift in the basis of our funding calculations and in what local councils in England have to spend. The system will no longer work on the basis of need. It will not take account of the fact that there are three times as many looked-after children in South Tyneside as in Surrey or that there are five times as many children in poverty in Middlesbrough as in Wokingham. It will not take into account the capacity of a local area to raise resources, in particular through council tax. It will not take into account the fact that Bexley and Barnsley have a similar population, but that Bexley raises £37 million more in council tax each year. It will take no account of the fact that Brent has a similar population to Rotherham, but raises £22 million more each year in council tax.
Mr Kevan Jones
Is my right hon. Friend surprised that we are returning to having a Conservative Government who are quite clear that they will reward the areas that vote for them and write off whole swathes of the country, including the north-east?
John Healey
Like my hon. Friend, I am not surprised by that. I seriously question whether the scheme will work even on its own terms, but I support the principle of a system that provides some rewards and incentives to local authorities so that they better support growth in business, jobs and the economy. The cost of doing that in the Bill and under the new system is very great given that they take no account of need or resources, and do away with the decades-old principle of equalisation.
Mike Freer (Finchley and Golders Green) (Con)
The right hon. Gentleman knows the high regard in which I hold him from when he was in his former positions in the Treasury and the Department for Communities and Local Government. We had fruitful conversations when he was a Minister and I was leader of a large council. However, I must tell him that Bexley has to raise so much more money than Barnsley because when he was a Minister, he fiddled with the equalisation formula to force affluent southern councils to raise council tax to subsidise northern councils. That is why there is such inequality.
John Healey
The hon. Gentleman has a lot of experience of local government and was a distinguished leader of a council in north, not south London. However, no one could tell that from the comment that he has just made. As to my fiddling the figures in the local government formula, my goodness, many people say that Labour should have learned many more lessons more clearly from the extent to which the Tories did that before 1997.
Bob Blackman
Before the previous intervention, I think the right hon. Gentleman was comparing council tax raised in the London borough of Brent with that in the unitary authority of Barnsley. Has he got figures for looked-after children in those two boroughs? I assure him that the London borough of Brent includes some of the most deprived areas in the whole country and, sadly, huge numbers of looked-after children.
John Healey
The very point that I am making is that the current system, complex as it is, takes account of resources—an area’s capacity to raise revenue, especially through council tax—as well as the needs of the population in that area for the essential services that local authorities provide. The formula covers both and is based on the principle that I outlined.
Mr Watts
If the Government were truly serious about taking need and the ability to raise funds into account, they would have had an independent assessment, outside the political arena, to ensure that grants for local authorities in future reflected need. Comments from the Government Members are always about how much one local authority gets compared with another, and always ignore need. The reason for higher funding is that the need exists.
John Healey
Whatever side of the House we are on, we should endorse the principle that objective, sometimes independent, assessment is the basis for better decisions. I have never been one for saying that important decisions, which should be taken by politicians, who then are accountable for them, should necessarily be outsourced to independent experts who do not have the direct accountability that we and members of the Government have, but my hon. Friend makes an important point that is relevant to our discussions. It is impossible to make any sensible assessment, let alone a sound, independent assessment, of what the system will mean for the future. That makes our discussions and the decisions that we are required to make as members of the Committee difficult. We are making big decisions, largely in the dark, and we are being asked to give members of the Government significant regulation-making powers that will define the most important dimensions of the way in which the system works and what is available for people in different areas.
I want to underline the point that spending to meet increased need in future will have to be funded by the business rates increase. The council tax freeze and referendum start to remove that as a realistic alternative source of additional funds.
George Hollingbery
I am in the Committee as much to learn as to speak to the amendments and would welcome a refresher. The right hon. Gentleman makes the case that there is no accounting of need in the future funding system. My reading of the Bill is that there is. He can argue that the reset period is too long, but there is a reset period—of 10 years—and therefore, need will be reassessed. Likewise, there is a safety net, such that if the business rate increase in a certain area goes a certain amount below the retail prices index, the Government will intervene. Is that not the same as a needs assessment?
John Healey
The hon. Gentleman is right—there will be resets—but we do not know after what period or on what basis, so there is no guarantee that the accounting of need in the current system, which will be frozen at the point when the new system starts, will be reflected in a formula for, assessment of, or decisions on resetting. He might want to pursue that point with his hon. Friend the Minister.
Andrew Gwynne
My right hon. Friend makes an excellent point, but does he share my concern that, if, as is suggested, the reset period is set at 10 years, the gap between the poorest and the most affluent authorities will widen and the disparities will worsen in that period? Does that not reinforce his argument that need must be a fundamental part of the overall formula, as does the capacity to raise additional income using the council tax and the council tax base?
John Healey
My hon. Friend is right—I am about to make a similar point on relatively affluent areas becoming relatively more affluent under the proposed system.
The Government’s declared intention is for a 10-year gap between resets. I have my doubts about whether a reset after that period will be capable of restoring a proper reflection of need or a proper fairness in the system. We will speak later to amendments that would create much shorter reset periods, but they would not change fundamentally how the system will work to build in an advantage for already affluent areas with a higher business base. That advantage will just get bigger over the period between resets.
Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)
It is very easy to talk about resets here and now as an academic exercise, but when the time comes to do something that fundamentally alters the tax take of different authorities up and down the country, Governments of any persuasion might think twice. We should perhaps think of the history of council tax revaluations. They are not easy, but they have an impact on individual councils, and they are sometimes dismissed.
John Healey
My hon. Friend is really saying that we have not had a council tax revaluation. The problem he describes is a problem for any Government, but Governments will experience a similar problem with business rates as a result of the Bill.
Andrew Gwynne
My right hon. Friend rightly talks of the unfairness of the possible reset in 10 years’ time exacerbating the problems for local authorities, particularly those such as mine, which need the ability to raise income locally and for acute local needs, such as those in Tameside and the Reddish part of Stockport, to be reflected.
In fact, is it not worse than that for such areas? There is almost a double whammy. For those authorities, we must not only get the reset procedure right, but set the initial baseline correctly. All of that is based on the unfair funding settlements and cuts to local authorities such as Tameside and Stockport, but if we get the procedure and the baseline wrong, 10 years down the line, the real unfairness will set in.
John Healey
My hon. Friend makes a powerful point. It is certainly clear from how the cuts to local government have fallen in this Government’s first two years that certain areas, including his and mine, have borne a much greater burden than others.
The other part of the double whammy, to use my hon. Friend’s expression, is designed into the system, and it should give the Committee cause for concern. It is that the local distribution of the business rates is very uneven. For instance, Kensington and Chelsea has a much smaller population than Rotherham or Barnsley—I represent part of both those boroughs—but raises five times as much in business rates as Barnsley and three and a half times as much as Rotherham.
The opportunities to grow the business base are also uneven. I have looked back at the latest gross value added statistics published by the Office for National Statistics just before Christmas. Last year’s figures showed a difference of more than 3% between growth in London and that in Lincolnshire, Cornwall or Merseyside. In other words, it is clear that from year one the gap between affluent and less affluent areas will grow. The business rates base, and therefore income for councils, will grow faster in some areas than others, as it has in the past.
Even if there were the same rate of growth in all areas, the relative size of the business base income, which is higher for some councils than others, would mean a greater actual cash income for some councils. The top-up and tariff system that the Government are designing will reduce, but not remove, that disparity. If it did remove it, it would remove the incentive element that they want to build into the system.
Having been a local government Minister for two years, introduced the first ever three-year settlement for local government and altered the formula to better reflect needs and resources, I know that there are always winners and losers from any change. The whole House knows that. However, the councils that have a big business rates base, a strong council tax take and high levels of growth will be win-win-win councils, and those that do not will find that they are lose-lose-lose councils. That is the unfairness that is built into the design of the new system. It will increase divisions and tensions in our country.
Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)
Does the right hon. Gentleman not recognise that the current system also has a whole lot of disincentives for local authorities built into it? Over years gone by, it has disincentivised many local authorities. It is perhaps all too easy to make comparisons between relatively affluent central London authorities and those in relatively long-term impoverished areas of the north of England, but the scheme that is being put in place is intended to challenge those disincentives. Although I accept that elements of it will not provide as much transparency as many of us would like, it is at least a step in the right direction.
John Healey
The extent to which it is a step in the right direction remains to be seen. There is an element of its direction that is right, which is the desire to see greater incentives for local councils to support the growth of their business base, and greater rewards for doing so. How those incentives will work is weak and potentially perverse, but the principle is nevertheless in the right direction. The potential practical problems that we are beginning to tease out are part of the debate that we need to have.
Andrew Gwynne
My right hon. Friend is being incredibly generous in giving way. Is there not another problem that has not been properly addressed in the legislation? It takes no account of the complexities of sub-regional economies. For example, many of my constituents in Tameside and Stockport work in the city of Manchester or other local authorities. The scope for economic development in Greater Manchester is concentrated in the city centre, around Manchester airport, Trafford park, the Trafford centre, the media city and Salford quays, and not necessarily in Tameside or Stockport to the same extent. Although there are facilities for pooling business rates where local authorities agree, if they do not agree, will not authorities such as mine be disadvantaged?
John Healey
They will indeed. As my hon. Friend states, there is a double disadvantage to areas such as his. He paints that picture and concern very vividly.
Graham Jones
My right hon. Friend is being generous with his time. I want to add a third whammy and take up the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne). Large parts of the country will have no incentive at all because they are in shire and district areas, where the district authorities will probably be the planning authorities that will make the business decisions, yet the shire authorities deliver 85% of services, including fire and police services, and might have little say in how much they take from business rates in terms of business growth. It will be difficult for them to increase their base if district authorities act unproductively or do not co-operate.
John Healey
My hon. Friend is right, and I suspect that it will be one of the Minister’s biggest headaches in the system. I doubt whether he will come to the conclusion—although perhaps he should—that the real answer is unitary authorities across the country. [Interruption.] But I sense that I may be tempted into territory that falls well beyond my amendment and the whole group of amendments.
Heidi Alexander
My right hon. Friend was talking about the principles and practicalities at the heart of the Bill. Does he agree that the real problem is that because the proposed system is so complicated—with central and local shares, top-ups, tariffs, set-asides, safety nets and levies—the incentive for a local authority to do anything differently could be marginal? Even if we accept that the incentive is there, it is so complicated that councils will not be sure whether it will be worth doing something differently anyway. Is that not the real problem?
John Healey
My hon. Friend is right. She made that point powerfully last week in her Second Reading speech, which was one of the best that the House heard. Whether for children or councils, incentives need to be simple, and the rewards and rules need to be clear, but the system that the Bill will introduce falls far short of those basic objectives for any system of rewards and incentives.
Mr Watts
Is there not another issue here for the local authorities with the lowest business rates take? The Government have indicated that they believe that those local authorities have low business rates take because they are not interested in developing businesses and do not do all that they can to attract businesses to their areas. Does my right hon. Friend consider that perverse, given the problems in areas such as St Helens and many others, including his own? The major concern of local authorities in those areas is to bring in as many jobs as possible, but because of their location, the skills base and other things, it is extremely difficult. It is insulting for the Government to pretend that it is because of a lack of effort by local authorities.
John Healey
A number of colleagues have made that point, about local government in general and their local authorities in particular. It is hard to point the finger at any council and say that it has not bust a gut in recent years to see its economy grow and jobs created, because that is to the benefit of their local area and the local people they serve, and that would also be the view of most Members. I still think there is a case for trying to design a system that rewards local people, via their local councils, where they are successful in that. Under the last Government, we attempted to do that through the local authority business growth incentive scheme. The system that we are now discussing is clearly a new way of doing that, but its fundamental flaw is that it tries to fix the whole funding system for local government at the same time as using the same, single tax stream to create that incentive. The new system is trying to do too much with that one funding system, creating contradictions and tensions, which lead to the sort of complexities that the Minister is trying to counter in the design of the system.
Bill Esterson
My right hon. Friend makes the point about the new system trying to do too much, which goes back to what my hon. Friend the Member for St Helens North (Mr Watts) said. The evidence is that the potential economic impact of local councils in trying to develop business locally is perhaps only 20% of the total impact, with far more of the impact coming from the private sector. The new system is putting an awful lot of responsibility on to local government for generating new business, therefore putting a huge responsibility for the generation of business rates on to local authorities, when there is relatively little that they can do, particularly in areas such as St Helens or Sefton, or my right hon. Friend’s area.
John Healey
My hon. Friend is right. One of the strengths of this debate, as shown by contributions from all parts of the Committee, is exemplified by what he has just said. He has served as a councillor in north Kent and brings that experience and perspective to this debate. He now serves as the Member for Sefton Central, in the north-west of England, and also brings that perspective, reinforcing his point.
I want to draw the Minister’s attention to the future position of fire and rescue services. Can he provide me and other Members who are interested with details about his modelling and assessment of future revenue streams? Can he say how many and which fire authorities will be top-up authorities in future, and how many and which will be tariff authorities? There is concern among senior fire staff that if the incentive that this system is designed to deliver works as the Government say it will, the top priority for councils in the future will be those functions for which they are responsible that help to build business growth. However, those who serve in our fire and rescue services—services that do not directly contribute to economic and business growth—are concerned that a consequence of that will be that in future they will not get the priority for funding that the proper protection of their area may deserve because they do not contribute to business growth. Let me quote a chief fire officer who fears that that may—but not necessarily will—happen. He says:
“I am concerned that the proposed funding model could foster an antagonistic relationship between the fire authority and the local authorities if they begin to see us as a service which takes money from the business rates but does not actively participate in the business growth agenda.”
There is a strong case for fire and rescue services to be funded in future on the same basis as the police, with a very clear, consistent and comprehensive assessment of risk, need and resources built into the allocation of funding for fire services in England. What we start to see with the fire and rescue services, in common with the rest of local government, is concern about the uncertainty—what it means, what the funding is likely to be and how hard it makes it to plan sensibly for the future, particularly the ability to plan and manage within diminishing resources, which by and large is accepted. As another senior fire officer told me, stability is the most important factor. The Minister could do the Committee and many in local government a favour by giving a clear and strong reassurance this afternoon about the stability and predictability of the system in future.
I am conscious that there are a number of other amendments in the group and that other right hon. and hon. Members want to speak to them, so let me return to my starting-point of amendment 46. It is a probing amendment, but it contains a proposal that all revenue raised from what is a tax on businesses designed to pay for local services should provide funds for local government—not for national priorities or services around which the cloak of local government can be loosely thrown at their funding streams and categorised as local government. Post-2015, this will build in a real localising ratchet. Post-2015, when the business rates take is projected to be bigger than the sums distributed to local councils, it will mean that where central Government want to use funds to cover non-council services, they will have to transfer the responsibility and devolve the power and control for those services to local government in order to use the business rates revenue to help fund them. Thus my proposal will mean Ministers truly putting their money where their mouths are. It will mean putting into reverse the post-war centralisation of government that this country has seen, and it will mean making the localist rhetoric a reality.
Mark Field
I am not entirely convinced that we are debating quite as revolutionary a change in local government finance as the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) would have us believe. As he rightly says, there has been periodic centralisation of local government finance in the post-war period; this Bill is a step, but only a relatively small step, in a different direction.
I am concerned that some provisions will not provide the overall transparency that all of us desire for local government finance. The worry, as we all know, is that council leaders across the country who get and understand the system will then work it to the benefit of their own local authorities, while neighbouring authorities with similar sets of needs will not reap the same benefits. I believe that has been the case since time immemorial, and I suspect it is a problem that exists in any political system. However much we try, it is difficult to discount the articulacy of those who understand and work a system. As I say, I am not as convinced or as concerned as the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne. I hope he will forgive me if I focus my comments on issues that have come from the lobbying of one of the two local authorities in my constituency, and in so far as we work here, we all have a vested interest in this authority—Westminster city council.
Mr Watts
Is not the real worry that unless a duty and responsibility are placed on Ministers to ensure that needs are assessed and catered for within the grant system, which under these proposals they will not be, the worst aspects of the hon. Gentleman’s worst fears might come to fruition?
Mark Field
There is a duty, although it will apply to potentially different sets of needs. I think one of the most destructive elements of local government has been the almost constant lobbying—whether it be for three-year settlements or the annual settlements of the past. Although we might return, well before 2022, to specific concerns about elements of need that have rightly been referred to, the idea of having a 10-year period is a positive route forward in providing certainty for local authorities.
Westminster city council strongly supports the principle of allowing local authorities to retain a proportion of the business rates generated in their area—no one seriously suggests that either of my two local authorities should retain all their business rates, although there are common councilmen in the City of London, and members of Westminster city council, I am sure, who would rather like the idea, but even I would not suggest that that would necessarily be an entirely sensible way forward. As other Members have rightly pointed out, local authorities have played an increasingly important and integral role in supporting and growing businesses locally.
Bill Esterson
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for acknowledging that the most wealthy local authorities, in terms of business rates, could not possibly keep all those rates. What sensible balance can be struck to ensure that some local authorities do not struggle because of loss of income and that local authorities who are worried, for good reason, have their fears allayed?
Mark Field
I will be coming to that later, and will be asking the Minister to clarify the matter.
I would like the Minister to address a number of concerns. Why have the Government decided to cancel out any natural inflationary growth in the business rates programme? Why are increases in what might be described as revaluation growth not included in the Bill? A major revaluation has particularly affected London local authorities in recent years. Why does the Bill fail to provide for an adjustment in the growth calculation, in order to remove the negative effect of valuation appeals, which might become much more prevalent once the Bill is on the statute book? Under the proposed reforms, every local authority, as has been pointed out, will become a tariff—contributory—or top-up recipient authority, relative to its annual grant. In that regard, I take on board the comments of the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne in relation to the responsibilities on fire authorities. One key question considered through the consultation was whether tariffs and top-ups should be uprated annually by the retail prices index. As the Minister knows, the Bill proposes that business rates will continue to be uprated annually, but taking the same approach to tariffs and top-ups would cancel out any natural inflationary growth that might otherwise have been expected by local authorities.
Why have the Government decided to cancel out natural inflationary growth in business rates? The clauses in the Bill that are subject to consideration today do not allow for revaluation growth, which is regrettable. Inevitably, all Members will use the examples closest to our hearts—our own local authority areas. Westminster city council’s total rateable value at the last five-year revaluation—18 months or so ago—rose by some 60%, but the proposed reforms would allow for none of that increase to count towards growth. In many ways, that is a disincentive to doing a lot of the hard work that went on in the second half of the last decade. As a result, local authorities would receive no benefit for enhancing their commercial environment or making their area a more attractive location for businesses. Having pacesetter authorities with business improvement districts in place at the outset was one of the most important elements of the previous Government’s work in that regard. Such authorities will be almost disincentivised and penalised under the proposals, which does not make much sense.
Given that rental and rateable value growth reflect the relative profitability from which central Government benefit through VAT, corporation tax and income tax, will the Minister clarify the reasons why increases in revaluation growth have not been included in the Bill? On physical growth, one key principle of the scheme, as I understand it, is to enable local authorities to benefit from new building and construction. However, as the Minister knows—although he represents a suburban London constituency—here in the capital, the high levels of rateable value reductions that are granted on appeal often wipe out the physical rateable value growth that has been achieved through new build. A great many appeals may be heard following revaluations, and as they are accepted the total rateable value in a billing may be reduced over time. Since those reductions result from errors made by central Government valuation officers, it seems unfair to penalise local authorities for such mis-valuations. We should also note the uncertainty that would be injected into the final settlement, given that one of the main aims of the scheme is to iron out such uncertainty.
Graham Jones
When authorities suffer a significant loss in business rate revenue, there will surely be a downward pressure on what the Prime Minister would describe as the big society, in which rate relief is given to charities, sports clubs and all sorts of other organisations that do social good. In the poorer, more deprived areas that will lose out under the new system, will not those organisations lose out as well?
Mark Field
The hon. Gentleman has almost taken the words out of my mouth. Given the Government’s commitment to the big society and to empowering the organisations about which he has expressed concern, removing discretionary awards would be controversial, and—given that they account for only a small proportion of the business rates that are collected—of little use. I hope that we can be given some clarification about why the Bill fails to provide for any adjustment in the growth calculation to remove the negative effect on valuation appeals.
I do not wish to sound too negative myself. Obviously we are trying to make the legislation better, and I think that the principle of allowing local authorities to retain a greater proportion of the business rates that they generate in their areas is a positive step. Nevertheless, the detailed proposals relating to RPI increases, revaluation and physical growth fail to offer the incentives for growth in high-yield areas for which we had all hoped, and I fear that they may result in excessive penalties for such areas. I realise that Opposition Members may view the issue from the point of view of relatively low-yield areas, but I think there is a risk that high-yield areas will not receive benefits for themselves and that, as a consequence, the Exchequer will not receive them either.
Encouraging economic growth at any level is critical to the national economy. Local authorities are uniquely placed to provide incentives for growth in their areas, recognising what will work even in specific parts of a single authority area—I observe a great variance within the 6.5 square miles of my own constituency—and that creates a bedrock for the national economy. I hope that serious scrutiny will be given to the reasons for the Government’s proposals, in the light of some of their potentially negative implications for areas that would be expected to generate the most significant growth.
Let me take up the point made by the hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne) about pooling. We are living in a climate in which it will become the norm. I do not wish to pre-empt discussion of an issue that I am sure will be subject to much criticism and debate on the Floor of the House in the years to come, but I suspect that there will also be a reorganisation of local government. I foresee that in particular for London. It currently has 32 local authorities as well as the City of London, and that situation may well be subject to radical reform in the near future.
I hope the Minister gives serious thought to encouraging the pooling of resources. As he will know, in my area the tri-borough arrangements among the City of Westminster, Kensington and Chelsea, and Hammersmith and Fulham have worked well in a number of respect, and it is to be hoped that that continues.
It is in the interests of central Government for there to be pooling, but I fear that the proposals in paragraph 9 of schedule 1 will serve to remove any form of incentive for it. I accept that there will be some additional costs, but pooling is the way forward for many local authorities and the Government should encourage it in this Bill.
I am broadly in favour of the proposals, but I hope the Minister gives serious consideration to the points I have made.
Helen Jones
It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field), who always has something interesting to say even though I might disagree with him.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne (John Healey) gave an excellent speech, in which he set out the reasoning behind the amendments. Our amendments attempt to deal with important omissions in the Bill. There is no mention of levels of need, of the different capacities of local authorities to benefit from business rate growth, or of the different council tax bases of local authorities.
The Government present their case in a way that suggests that there is no difference among authorities, in that they all have the same capacity to raise income and have the same demands on them, and that if a local authority is struggling, it is its own fault and a result of its being lax, rather than of the conditions it has inherited. Everyone knows that that is a myth, but some people are deeply attached to it.
We must acknowledge that the current, admittedly complex, system of local government finance does at least try to take into account the relative needs of different communities and their differing abilities to raise revenue. The Government have sought to erode that in their current local government finance settlement, and the consequent significant reduction in resource equalisation has led to local authorities no longer being able to provide the same level of service by charging the same band of council tax. As a result, the delivery of core services in poorer areas has been hit particularly hard. Despite the Prime Minister’s repeated reassurances, we are not all in this together.
The point I have made is very important, because it is about the base from which this scheme starts. Let me make it clear that we are not against incentives for local authorities to grow their economies.
Mr Watts
Does my hon. Friend agree that her point is one of the reasons that the Government do not want any independent assessment of the implications of what they have already done and of what they now propose to do? An assessment would demonstrate that poorer authorities have got poorer and that the richer have got richer.
Helen Jones
My hon. Friend makes a valid point. When discussing the first group of amendments we said that the fact that this Bill is not going into Committee upstairs means that we cannot take evidence on anything. The Government mindset seems to be, “Let’s get it in, push it through and not bother to have any proper assessment of it.”
Mark Field
The local government finance system may not be quite as complicated as the Schleswig-Holstein question, but is it not a concern that it is none the less very difficult to find anyone who could seriously be said to be independent in this regard? Although I can understand some of the concerns outlined by the hon. Member for St Helens North (Mr Watts), having an opportunity to discuss this on the Floor of the House means that more Members can have their say, and that must be a positive step forward.
Helen Jones
The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point, although I do not believe it is impossible to find independent people in the sector and of course the Government could have taken the Bill into Public Bill Committee and taken evidence, and then had a long Report stage on the Floor of the House to enable Members to participate.
To go back to my point, we are not against providing incentives for local authorities, but we do not believe that this Bill goes about it in the right way. We believe that any system has to be fair and equitable, and must recognise that weaker local economies find it harder to achieve growth and need help to do so. The Government have signally failed to recognise their responsibilities in that regard and we are faced with a “Leave it to Pickles” Bill. The Secretary of State is going to decide who gets what on the top-ups, the tariffs and so on. That is all being left to regulations, with no indication given as to the factors that he will take into account. As I keep saying, there are no draft regulations for us to look at.
Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)
I apologise for not being able to be here for the earlier part of the debate. My hon. Friend knows my constituency well. Does she agree that unless we make a provision along the lines of amendment 19, which deals with need, the capacity to benefit from business rate growth and the council tax base of the authority, areas such as Knowsley are likely to be badly penalised?
Helen Jones
My right hon. Friend, who has been a doughty champion of his constituency for many years, hits on exactly the point that we are trying to make: unless the distribution of the central and local share is based on a number of factors, inequality will be built into the system—indeed, it is built in already because of the starting point. We do not believe that this approach is good enough. The future of communities and of the services available, particularly to the poorest people in this country, cannot simply be left to chance. If the Government believe in fairness and really believe that they would take into account the factors we mention in any case in determining central and local shares, I cannot see why they would have a problem in accepting our amendment. After all, the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister told us during their now forgotten love-in back in May 2010, before the romance had gone and they started squabbling, that they
“will ensure that fairness is at the heart of…decisions so that all those most in need are protected.”
That is all we are asking for in this amendment and the others that follow it.
Unfortunately, the Bill does not provide that fairness. If it goes through as drafted, service provision will, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne said, increasingly be based on the ability to raise local business rates and council tax. As council tax increases will often be subject to a referendum, most of the demand will be put on local business rates.
Mr Kevan Jones
Does my hon. Friend also recognise that, for authorities such as South Tyneside council, which has nearly 50% of its properties in band A—that compares with a figure of 2% for Kensington and Chelsea—the existing system makes it more difficult to raise any additional money from the domestic side of the rates?
Helen Jones
Yes, my hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is one of the reasons for including the council tax base as one of the measures that ought to be taken into account. I shall say a little more about that later.
Graham Jones
My hon. Friend is very generous in giving way and I am grateful for that. Let me extend that point and return to those made about shires and districts. Where is the incentive in a scenario in which there are a large number of band A properties, for which council tax cannot be used, and in which the receipt will be only 15%, such as in my district authority? It seems to me that the system has not been thought out.
Helen Jones
My hon. Friend has hit on another flaw in the Bill and that is one reason for our complaining earlier about it being rushed through. Such matters need to be considered in detail.
If service provision is to be increasingly based on the ability to raise local business rates and council tax, this Bill has nothing to say about the levels of need. For example, parts of the area I represent used to be heavily industrialised. It is now a mixed area because a new town was built, but part of it was a mining community and we had heavy industry. Many other local authorities have much worse problems than my area, but all those areas are still dealing with the long-term health issues linked to heavy industry and poverty. That is why in an area such as Halton, a neighbouring authority to mine, one in five of the population has a limiting long-term illness. That is why the north-east has higher levels of deprivation, child poverty and poor health than the English average. Sunderland, for example, has 34 neighbourhoods that are in the top 10% most deprived areas of the country. The legacy of poor health, deprivation and poverty is what many local councils are constantly striving to deal with. There is no lack of effort on their part or lack of will. The failure is not theirs, but results from a long industrial heritage followed by the collapse of much heavy industry in the ’80s and ’90s.
Graham Jones
My hon. Friend is making a very good point; there is a risk in the system. She mentioned Sunderland—not my area—and Nissan is a very large employer in that region. Who is to say that in five years’ time the company will still be present there?
Helen Jones
Indeed—my hon. Friend makes a very good point. Later, we will debate the provisions for safety nets and how the Bill can cope with risks.
Andrew Gwynne
Will not some of the disparities about which my hon. Friend is talking be exacerbated by the new system? The analysis from the special interest group of municipal authorities—SIGOMA—shows that there will be an absolute decline over the next two years in funding across all local authority areas, that by 2015-16 some of those authorities will have recovered their position and that by 2020 there will be a huge disparity between the most rich and the most poor.
Helen Jones
My hon. Friend highlights a real risk of the Bill. All the modelling shows that the gap between rich and poor will become wider. That is a problem because, in my experience, local authorities have worked relentlessly to tackle these issues and to regenerate their communities. It is a long-term project, however, and it is much more difficult in some areas than in others for a whole host of reasons, including poverty, a local authority’s inheritance, its location and so on.
Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)
Some years ago, I was an assistant director of education in the city of Sunderland and, despite its massive challenges, the attainment of the children was well above that of their statistical neighbours and was close to the national average. That demonstrates that such places can have massive challenges but still deliver well for their communities.
Helen Jones
My hon. Friend highlights the role of local authorities in achieving such gains. I believe that those authorities are constantly working to improve things for their communities and that the assumption underlying much of this Bill—that they do not want to do that—is simply untrue.
Returning to the issue of need, Durham council spends more on older people than a similar council such as Surrey because it has higher levels of deprivation and ill health. That means not only that it faces a greater requirement for social care but that it has fewer people who are able to finance their own care. Fifteen times as many people per 1,000 population receive a community service in Durham compared with Surrey, and 2.4 times as many receive a home care service. That kind of variation in need exists right across the country.
A similar pattern can be seen with children’s services and the level of child poverty, which all experts estimate will rise as a result of many of the Government’s actions. In Hartlepool, 29% of children are in poverty, whereas in Newcastle the figure is 27%, as it is in Liverpool—more than 91,000 children. In comparison, the figure in Wokingham is 7%. I defy anyone to argue that there should not be some resource equalisation to deal with that, but nothing in the Bill requires the Secretary of State to take account of the level of need when he determines the central and local share of non-domestic rates.
Heidi Alexander
My hon. Friend is talking about the growth in demand for council services that might occur in future and about the need to have some way of assessing that growing demand. It is relevant to services such as adult social care, particularly elderly care, that the geographical distribution of older people in our country is not the same across every local authority. In the shires, for example, there will be more of an ageing population than in my local authority. Does my hon. Friend think it is important to find a way of assessing those differing growth rates in need, which are often for services that are highly resource-intensive?
Helen Jones
My hon. Friend makes the valid point that the need for all these services varies across authorities; more to the point it is not within councils’ control. A council cannot control how many elderly people are going to need social care, or how many children are going to need intervention from their children’s department. That is the real problem. There are huge variations in demand for children’s services and educational services across the country, and that is often linked with poverty. Middlesbrough, which is the ninth most deprived local authority area in England, has almost seven times as many children receiving free school meals as Wokingham. Almost all councils showed a huge increase in referrals and in the taking into care of children following the tragic baby Peter case, which we all know about. That was not under their control, but the differences between the numbers of children in care across the country are still stark. Surrey has 32 looked-after children per 10,000 population, whereas Wokingham has 22. In Middlesbrough, the figure is 104 and in Newcastle it is 100. In Liverpool, there has been a 60% increase in child safeguarding referrals since 2009-10, whereas the average national increase is only 10%.
Bill Esterson
I keep being struck by the tension between, on one hand, the Government’s stated support for localism and the retention of business rates that they want to bring in and, on the other, the retention of powers by the Secretary of State. My hon. Friend is describing extremely well the growing gap among different local authorities and it seems to me that unless the Secretary of State addresses the issues in amendment 19, he will not be able to avoid that growing gap. I cannot understand why the Government would not want to support amendment 19.
Helen Jones
My hon. Friend is right. His intervention highlights the fact that no matter how much we want to make local government finance simple, it is never going to be simple because of the variation in need and the difference in resources. There is a balance to be struck between simplification and unfairness, and we do not think the Government have got that balance right in the Bill.
Some councils are coping with huge demands on their resources. Some form of equalisation will be necessary if, for example, children in poorer areas are not to be placed at risk. The idea that children’s services or the care of the elderly should depend on the number of businesses persuaded to relocate to a particular area is difficult to get to grips with.
George Hollingbery
In the debate on Second Reading the shadow Secretary of State said that there were far too many points in the Bill where the Secretary of State could interfere. As I said earlier this afternoon, there are mechanisms built into the Bill that ensure that revaluation and re-rating will take place. We can quibble about the date, but there are provisions to do that. There are safety nets built in. There is also at the first setting of this level of support a built-in bias towards communities that need more, as there should be. A calculation that I did showed that there was one public sector worker for every 88 people in Hampshire, because there is much less deprivation there, and I understand that, but one public sector worker for every 19 people in Manchester. Where we start clearly reflects the level of need.
Helen Jones
I know the hon. Gentleman made a thoughtful speech on Second Reading, but he is wrong on both counts. First, there is nothing on the face of the Bill about resets. Secondly, resetting the whole system is different from the way in which the system is run in the meantime. The baseline has nothing to do with the number of public sector workers anywhere. The baseline is the current local government financial settlement, which we argue is completely unfair to many local authorities anyway.
Andrew Gwynne
Because many of the children’s services that my hon. Friend mentioned are statutory, is it not the case that local authorities will have to find the money to provide them? The real pinch will come in the budgets for non-statutory services. There will be huge differentials from local authority to local authority, with some able to provide libraries, parks and other wonderful things, and other local authorities barely able to make their statutory arrangements.
Helen Jones
Indeed. My hon. Friend hits on a point that is important to local government as a whole. Local authorities cannot avoid their statutory responsibilities, so other services are squeezed. In future we may well see richer authorities developing a Pickles park here and there and naming public libraries after this beneficent Secretary of State, but it will be very hard for other authorities.
We have included unemployment in the factors that the Secretary of State must take into account. There are a number of reasons for that. Unemployment increases ill health, it forces more families into poverty, and it is an indicator of the state of business in an area. But high levels of unemployment also increase the demand for local authority services. As one of my hon. Friends said earlier, it will increase the demand for council tax benefit, for example. As more people become unemployed, many more rightly receive discounts on other services, such as leisure services. So unemployment increases demand at the same time as locking the authority into a cycle of falling revenue.
The theory behind the Bill is that local authorities can resolve that problem simply by expanding their business rate base and attracting more jobs. This was the theory that the Deputy Prime Minister set out when he explained the Government’s proposals to council leaders. He said:
“The new system will start on a level playing field—where you progress from there is up to you.”
It is a wonderful thing to be a Liberal Democrat. They can conduct politics exactly as if they are writing a “Focus” leaflet. But in the first place, there is no level playing field. We have debated endlessly what we see is the unfairness of the current local government financial settlement, which forms the basis for rate redistribution and penalises the poorest local authorities most. The simplest statistic is the most telling and it bears repeating. The 10% most deprived authorities lose four times as much as the 10% least deprived. The cumulative cuts in per capita spending hit the poorest hardest.
Bob Blackman
I am listening with interest to the hon. Lady’s explanation of the amendment. It suggests a whole series of different factors that the Government would have to take into account in deciding how much money a local authority would be given. Who would conduct that assessment? Would it be the Government, some independent body, the Opposition or the whole House? Otherwise, the amendment would simply put into the Secretary of State’s hands the power that she is accusing him of taking already in the Bill.
Helen Jones
The hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point, as an independent assessment would be a good idea. However, assessments of local authority need are already done by the Department for Communities and Local Government, so I see no reason why they should not be done in future. As he will hear when I move on in my speech, we have tabled further amendments requiring the report to be laid before the House so that it can be debated.
Amendments 37 and 38 would require the Secretary of State not only to announce central and local shares for each authority for a year, but to give indicative totals for the following year after consultation with local government. Despite the Government’s rhetoric, the Bill is a hugely centralising measure, as the Opposition have said several times. We are seeking to mitigate that by inserting a requirement that the Secretary of State consult local government before making his decision, which seems fair and proportionate and reflects the fact that what we are engaged in is a partnership between central and local government.
Amendment 37 would require the Secretary of State to give an indicative announcement for the subsequent two years to allow local councils to plan their services and make the right preparations, rather than working from year to year. Recently, all parties seemed to have accepted that it is much more sensible for local government finance announcements to cover a number of years. The previous Government introduced three-year settlements, and even this Government announced a two-year settlement, knowing that they expected to change the system.
Amendments 37 and 38 simply attempt to introduce a little more certainty into a very uncertain system. They would not change the power of the Secretary of State to decide the shares and they seek only indicative shares, not shares set in stone. In our view, that would produce better governance in local authorities and help them to plan. As it is, the Secretary of State can change the shares from year to year with little warning for local authorities. As we require local authorities to deliver statutory services, as has been said, we ought to allow them to plan the support that their community needs. Local authorities are constantly lectured by Ministers about the need to manage their resources, yet how can they manage their resources properly without any indication of how their finances will change from year to year?
Amendment 36 is merely a probing amendment. It is designed to tease out an explanation for the wording in the Bill. The Government intend to determine the baseline for non-domestic rate income in an authority by using the total that would be payable if it had “acted diligently”. We would like clarification from the Minister of what is meant by that. We all accept that an authority has to have an efficient collection system and that it should pursue debtors vigorously. However, what happens if an area finds itself in difficulty and its businesses are struggling because of the Government’s policies? Many businesses are in that position now and are finding it difficult to pay their rates. Is an authority expected to pursue such businesses to the limit? Will a council be penalised if it offers more discretionary reliefs? We would like clarity on that. We would also like clarity on the position of councils generally in offering discretionary rate relief. For example, will a council be penalised if it offers rate relief to too many non-profit organisations? Will “too many” be defined somewhere by the Secretary of State? What will be the position on hardship relief, which is also discretionary? Will a council in a difficult situation that tries to help local businesses be penalised because its baseline is set much higher than its actual income?
If I move on to amendment 39, I might be able to answer the point made by the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman). We believe that it is vital that the Secretary of State not only makes an assessment of need before setting the central and local shares for each authority, but publishes that assessment and lays it before the House. That would bring transparency and openness to the system. We want the debate on the local governance finance report in the House to be informed by information on the level of funding for local authorities and the level of need within them.
There are, of course, variations in services because there are variations in circumstances. The main difficulty in dealing with local government finance is the belief held by many people that they should get roughly the same from certain services wherever they are because, as they see it, they are taxpayers and ratepayers. Elderly people who need care in their own homes have a reasonable expectation that they will get a certain standard of care wherever they live. If anybody was told that they could not have that standard of care because businesses had not grown enough in their area, we would soon hear from them. It cannot be right for looked-after children in Middlesbrough to receive a different standard of care from children in another authority.
By requiring the Secretary of State to prepare and publish a report, the House would be able to take account of the needs of groups that are not the most vocal, especially children and the elderly. Those groups do not always have access to journalists to argue their case. When they are written about, it is sometimes as if they are a different species. Many such people do not come to our surgeries or write to the local newspaper. After all, a society is judged not by how it treats its most affluent people but by the way in which it treats those most in need and those without a voice. We tabled amendment 39 to ensure that those matters are debated, and we hope that the Government will accept it.
Bob Blackman
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship again, Mr Robertson. It is also an honour to follow the hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones).
The key issue is that local government finance has changed radically and dramatically in the past few years. I congratulate the previous Government on introducing three-year settlements. Having served in local government for some 24 years before becoming a Member of Parliament, I know that the certainty that gave local authorities was extremely welcome. However, the financial arrangements have changed dramatically and will do so again.
I can speak for London authorities. The average London authority has £1 billion in revenue going though its books. It has discretion over probably only a quarter of that because roughly a third goes on housing benefit and 40% goes on education spending—schools and colleges. Now, that 40% for education passes through with the local authority doing virtually nothing but act as an agent of the Government in putting the money into the hands of the schools. Equally with housing benefit, under the proposed change to universal credit, local authorities will no longer administer that money. However, there will still be the surfeit of discretionary or statutory services that local authorities provide and that need to be funded by them. There will be different streams of income—council tax, other charges that local authorities levy for their services and, importantly, the business rates.
The key issue, which the Opposition have not started to understand or appreciate, is that there is a deliberate and perverse incentive for local authorities to retain deprivation in their areas. If there is deprivation, money flows from Government for that particular purpose.
Bob Blackman
I will give way in a second. I will cite an example from the past few years, when the previous Government decided to change the rules on the amount of money that was given through the formula for local authorities with large concentrations of black and minority ethnic communities. All of a sudden, funding for local authorities throughout the country with large BME populations would have been decimated because it was one of their great income streams. Huge lobbies took place and the Government backed down.
Mr Kevan Jones
I am interested in what the hon. Gentleman is saying. Can he give a specific example of a council anywhere, irrespective of its political persuasion, that has wanted to turn prosperity away from its area?
Bob Blackman
The key is not that local authorities turn away business or prosperity; I am pointing out that there is an in-built presumption that areas of deprivation follow extra grant from Government. As a direct result, there has been hardly any change in areas of deprivation across the country. Despite the fact that local authorities—of all political persuasions—with areas of deprivation have had huge amounts of money put in over 30 or more years, those areas of deprivation remain the same.
Heidi Alexander
I am interested in what the hon. Gentleman is saying, because the implication is that local councillors and local authorities want to maintain deprivation in their areas because they get more money into their coffers. Is he really saying that? In my experience, local authorities and local councillors do the jobs they do because they want to make the lives of the people whom they serve better; they are not interested in getting money into their coffers to serve their own purposes.
Bob Blackman
I am not saying that councillors, council officers or local authorities of any persuasion deliberately decide that they want their areas to be deprived. I am saying that there is a perverse incentive for those areas to be deprived. The Bill changes that presumption. It will be for every local authority where there is deprivation to encourage and promote prosperity and businesses to set up in their areas, so that there is a deliberate move to create economic growth in areas that have been unfairly deprived for far too long.
Graham Jones
The hon. Gentleman is being very generous in giving way on that point. I realise that he is under a lot of pressure given the comments he has just made. Does he accept that what we actually see in deprived areas is better partnership working between local authorities and businesses? That is certainly the case in Lancashire. Relationships and partnership working between the business sector and councils are not as good in west Lancashire, which is an affluent area. Councils in the east of Lancashire have an exemplary record, because there are deprived areas that need business. The answer in those deprived areas is not grants from the Government, but businesses, which is why those local authorities pursue that avenue.
Bob Blackman
I recognise that partnership working has almost been forced on local authorities. Some embraced it; others were forced.
Bob Blackman
That did not happen only in deprived areas. I come from somewhere that had areas of great deprivation and which formed local strategic partnerships and other such organisations. However, those areas still have huge deprivation and are among the most deprived parts of London and the country, even though they have had huge amounts of money pumped into them by Governments of all persuasions. The key issue remains: there has been no incentive for economic growth in those areas.
Graham Jones
The hon. Gentleman makes a self-defeating point, because he reminds the Committee of local strategic partnerships, which were mandated only in areas of deprivation, and to which the previous Government handed out grants. His point is that the previous Government instructed local authorities in deprived areas to work, through LSPs, with the business community and the private sector, and the supply and education chains.
Bob Blackman
I take the hon. Gentleman’s point, but we have to consider cause and effect. I do not decry what the last Government instructed local authorities to do, but the key point is that it failed. The areas of deprivation then are still the areas of deprivation. This Government are trying to introduce a direct incentive to business growth and economic growth in those areas and right across the country. They are giving local authorities an opportunity to change their view and see the direct incentive to have economic growth. Local authorities will keep the money, which they can then invest in the local services that people need. That does not mean that there is not a need for national investment in local areas when infrastructure improvements and regeneration are needed, but that is very different from creating economic growth.
Mr Betts
There is a danger that we will get locked into a discussion in which we simply assume that the current system has always been in place. Prior to the poll tax local authorities kept all their business rates, yet since 1945 and probably before, the difference and disparities in deprivation have continued to grow. Local economies in different parts of the country have performed very differently, despite local authorities having had the incentive of business rate retention prior to the poll tax. The hon. Gentleman’s argument therefore lacks a little if it is taken beyond the particular complications of the current system.
Bob Blackman
One of the key historical points is that local authorities used to set their own business rates, but then pressure from the House changed that situation for the simple reason that large local authorities saw the opportunity to milk businesses and set exorbitant rates, because business did not have a vote. They could then keep local tax low because they had increased business rates to milk businesses. That was why the national business rates were introduced.
I do not believe that there is an argument for changing the position so that local authorities determine the level of business rates, but there is a very strong argument, which the Government are advancing, for their retaining the money that is collected locally. I believe that the Government are being a bit timid in their approach, because I would like more money to be retained locally, possibly with a slightly less complex formula to make it more transparent. However, I recognise that the Government are taking the first step along the way.
Mr Betts
I intervene briefly on a factual point about what happened prior to the poll tax. Probably one of the reasons why it was brought in was the very large rate increases made by some authorities, such as the one in Sheffield of which I was a member at the time. It is not true that authorities sought to pile all the pain on businesses and keep their other taxes low. Actually, the domestic and non-domestic rates were linked and could be increased only in line with each other. It was not possible to increase one without increasing the other. Domestic ratepayers had a vote, of course, and in many cases were prepared to vote for large increases to protect services.
Bob Blackman
That, of course, is local democracy—if people want to pay higher taxes, they are welcome to do so. I am personally a great advocate of annual elections to local authorities instead of referendums, so that if councillors want to raise local taxes exorbitantly they will be voted out at the ballot box. I therefore take the hon. Gentleman’s point.
Heidi Alexander
The hon. Gentleman has argued that incentives have not previously existed for local authorities to stimulate economic growth in their area. He is a distinguished former leader of a large London local authority, Harrow. Given that those incentives did not exist, did he not do anything in his time as leader to stimulate the local economy in Harrow?
Bob Blackman
I was actually the leader of Brent council, not Harrow, but I thank the hon. Lady for making that point. I was the chairman of a city challenge company that was part of the London borough of Brent, and for five years we had Government money flowing in. We retained every job that we had and expanded the number of jobs in the area, but by the end of the five years unemployment in the area had increased, not reduced. We had had huge amounts of money but, perversely, unemployment had risen, which meant that we could go back to the Government and say, “We need more money.”
Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con)
My hon. Friend is making an important point. Was not one problem that there was almost an incentive for a whole band of an officer class to prove deprivation rather than an incentive to prove and create success? That is how we ended up in this appalling game in London of trying to prove who was the poorest borough.
Bob Blackman
I completely agree with my hon. Friend. I return to my central argument, which is that there was a perverse incentive for deprivation to continue. Here, in the Bill, we are taking the first step—it is not perfect by any means—towards saying, “Instead of failure, success will be rewarded.” That is the approach that we seek to take, and it is the right approach to take.
I ask the Minister to consider two final points. First, there is concern about how the scheme will be administered and about its fairness and transparency. It is right that we consider the elements of the scheme and undertake to conduct a review to ensure that it is working appropriately, fairly and transparently, so that not only the House but every local authority in the county can say, “Yes, this system works.”
Graham Jones
The hon. Gentleman is being exceptionally generous in giving way. I thank him for that. He referred to success. What does he mean by “success”? Does it mean a local authority that leans back in its chair as a large employer turns up, or a local authority—presumably like the one he ran in Brent—that fights to defend and save jobs? There might not be growth, but an awful lot of work goes in to maintain the position. Which model would he describe as successful?
Bob Blackman
That is exactly my second point. In large parts of the country, particularly in suburbia, there has been a gradual leakage of businesses, as business land—areas designated for business land and investment—have been turned over to housing. There is an incentive for local authorities to do that, because it increases the council tax base and makes it easier for local authorities to get new homes bonus money. It does, however, reduce the business rate income. At the moment, those local authorities suffer no penalty for doing that.
Under the new system, there can still be a leakage of land and employers. I am talking not about a catastrophic failure where one major employer closes down—that would obviously be a huge loss to the local authority—but a gradual process, over a number of years, under which industrial land has been turned over to housing, resulting in a leakage in business rate income. Has the Minister considered that point? How will it be looked at in the round? I raised the matter on Second Reading but so far we have not had an answer.
Finally, one thing that will be true in this brave new world is that there are risks associated with both the income and expenditure of local authorities. We know that there are huge numbers of demand-led services that every local authority must provide—they have been mentioned already: adult social care, children’s care, and so on—and I recognise that. It is also the case that income levels can sometimes be unpredictable. The more predictable they are, the better. However, there is the pooling approach. I wonder whether the Minister can say what directions will be given if certain local authorities just sit back and say, “We’re alright, Jack. We’re fine. We’ll just keep the money. We’re not going to pool our risk. We’re not going to pool our opportunity. We won’t co-operate with our neighbours.” That is an important point, which the hon. Member for Hyndburn (Graham Jones) raised. How will the Government direct local authorities to pool resources, in order to spread risk across a number of authorities?
Mr Betts
I want to speak about set-aside—the principle and the calculations—and, in particular, to draw attention to my amendments 44 and 45. This is the first opportunity that I have had during the Committee stage to talk about the new, simplified system of local government finance that the Government are proposing. [Interruption.] Is that a smile from the Minister? We have to have a laugh about the terminology, but it was the terminology that the Secretary of State used when introducing the consultation proposals. He called it a simplified system, but I do not think that anybody, even—
Robert Neill
Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will be glad to know that I was smiling just to say how pleased we are to see the Chairman of the Select Committee on Communities and Local Government among us.
Mr Betts
It is very nice of the Minister to say so, so I will smile in return. However, even he could not rise now and say that this is a simplified system. It is a new system—it is a radical departure—but it is certainly no less complicated than what went before it; rather, it is complicated in a different way.
Let us talk about transparency. By that I mean the possibility that when a development is put forward in part of a local authority area, it is possible to say to residents, “If that development is granted, these will be the financial consequences.” There is no chance of that happening with this piece of legislation. It will be very difficult for local authority treasurers to explain to their members collectively what the implications of the new legislation are, let alone for a local councillor to tell residents looking at a planning application, “These are the financial consequences of accepting this proposal.”
I have no problem with the principle behind the Bill; indeed, I think there is a shared principle across the Committee. We all realise that there must be more incentives in the system to reward local authorities for encouraging and promoting growth in their areas. There is no problem with that principle at all. The difficulty, which is reflected in the responses to the consultation on the legislation that we are considering today, is that the authorities with a relatively high business rate base, or the potential to develop one and grow their business rate relatively easily, are obviously all arguing for lower tariffs and top-ups, whereas those that have lower business rate bases and more difficulty in attracting growth to their areas, perhaps including those with the greatest need, are arguing for more top-ups and tariffs.
As I said on Second Reading, the Government have a fundamental problem. Because of the effective removal of Government grant to local authorities from 2013-14, they are now trying to use the business rate to do two potentially contradictory things. They are trying to use the business rate as a mechanism to encourage growth and development, rewarding authorities by allowing them to keep the business rates that are raised from development and growth, but they are also trying to use it as a method of redistribution to help authorities that cannot achieve development and growth easily, and that have problems of deprivation. The Government are trying to do two things with one tax, which is a problem. That is why we have such a complicated arrangement.
If there was a separate element of Government grant that could be used for redistribution and if authorities were then allowed to keep their business rates, separately—as was the case with the old system, which we have just discussed with the hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman)—that would be relatively easy. There would be a business rate that was an incentive and a Government grant for redistribution. The fact is that we do not have the second of those; complications thus arise.
Some of us can remember the GREAs—the grant related expenditure assessments—the SSAs or standard spending assessments and other complicated arrangements like regression analysis that used to be done on all these matters. On every consultation, local authorities in various parts of the country would have different views about the allocation of resources and the finance system—of course they did, and the same applies on this occasion. What the Secretary of State and this Government have managed to do this time, however, is to unite the whole of local government on one fundamental issue—a feat that I do not think has been achieved before by any Government or any Secretary of State in relation to local authority finance.
Every local authority association and every local authority in the country has united against the principle of set-aside. They all view this as central Government putting their hands into the local authority pot and taking money out of it for themselves. When we used to debate local government finance, as we still do, most people rightly assumed that it was a debate about finance for local government. Now the debate is going to be about finance from local government, as local government will be contributing to national Government and the national Treasury. We will no longer talk about a business rate that is collected locally and distributed nationally, but a business rate that is collected locally and spent nationally. That does not strike me as a terribly localist move.
The Government have created a fundamental problem for themselves with set-aside. One can see the Secretary of State sat in his office, snaffling local government resources and getting into the Chancellor’s good books by passing those resources over and saying, “Look, I’ve done it again, Chancellor. I’m the good guy in all this; I’m giving you lots more money to spend.” Perhaps it is more like good cop, bad cop. We generally see the Secretary of State coming along to join the Minister for these debates, with the Secretary of State doing the broad sweep and the Minister knowing the detail. Perhaps they will go along to the Local Government Association in future when the pantomime season is in bloom. The Minister will go along as the wicked uncle, describing how much the set-aside is going to be worth in that year and how much is going to be taken away, while the Secretary of State will come along as the fairy godmother to say, “Look at all the goodies I’m going to give you back when I spend the set-aside. The problem is that when I wave my magic wand, what you get might not be what you thought you were going to get, because the money is going to be spent on things for which you would previously have had a grant.” This is the delusion being created.
The reaction on the part of local government is obvious. It says, “You are asking us to accept 28% cuts to Government funding over a four-year period and to cut our fundamental services.” Despite what the Minister said to the Select Committee today, there is not a local authority in the country that is not having to cut social services and social care. That is what is happening. At the same time as local authorities are being asked to make profound cuts to front-line services—it is happening to authorities of all persuasions up and down the country—the Government are saying, “By the way, we are now going to take away from local government resources that could be spent on local services, by means of the set-aside.”
All this explains why I tabled the amendments. Amendment 44, for example, is an attempt to make the point that something must be wrong when a Government say that they are going to take the set-aside away—irrespective of the real needs of local authorities, which they are clearly unable to meet in the current financial situation.
Graham Jones
On the same argument, would my hon. Friend add to that the housing benefit and council tax cuts, which are on top of the 28% and have a disproportionate effect on deprived areas? Does this not mean that we are talking about cuts of 28% plus—and they are growing rapidly?
Mr Betts
My hon. Friend is absolutely right that we should look at the totality of the effects of the cuts on local authority budgets. Before the Secretary of State takes this set-aside from local authorities, he should look at what is happening to social care and with council tax increases, which authorities will have to impose after the freeze or deferment comes to an end. He should look at what is happening to concessionary travel for young people, which gives them their independence and mobility, and to care for the elderly and to road safety schemes, which cannot now go ahead. He should look at what is happening to proper protection for private sector tenants from rogue landlords, which authorities will probably not be able to fund, or at the diminishing possibility of providing weekly bin collections across the country—something close to the Secretary of State’s heart. Before looking at set-aside, surely the Secretary of State ought to consider how far local authorities have been able to meet such needs.
Annette Brooke
As a genuine point of discussion, let us imagine a situation in which set-aside is used for reasons that everyone could sign up to, and directed to local government services—an ideal world, I admit. Despite our desire to march towards localism, would not holding back on full localisation in the first few years be a prudent approach that would reduce uncertainty?
Mr Betts
I am not sure, because how the set-aside ends up being used is fundamental. Will it simply go to the Treasury, and we never see it again? Alternatively, will Department for Communities and Local Government or other Ministers say, “We used to fund certain council services, and now we will use set-aside for that.” It will save central Government money. A classic example is the requirement on local authorities to fund 10% of the cost of council tax benefits in the first year—that will almost certainly rise if unemployment rises. What will stop Ministers saying in future, “We have already established 10%, so next year it will be 20%, 30% or 40%”? That will bring no benefit in council services or to local taxpayers or councils; it is just a saving to the Treasury. From a Minister’s point of view, however, it is a neat way of linking two parts of the Bill together.
Graham Jones
Another Treasury or DCLG idea could be to use the set-aside to pay for wasteful weekly bin collections.
Mr Betts
It could be; we are not sure where that funding is coming from. In future, a whole variety of things, such as police grant, could be paid for out of set-aside. Things that Government would have paid for through another source could be paid for out of set-aside, saving the Treasury money. We do not know, because the Bill does not contain the detail. All that we can say is that there will be no power at local level, or among local government collectively, to decide such things. Will there be any power in the Chamber to decide such things, or will it all be up to Ministers?
Mr Ward
The hon. Gentleman makes a crucial point. We discussed earlier the uncertainty around incentivisation—we do not know what that will lead to—but we can completely remove the uncertainty around the levy account and the safety nets in the central share if the Minister makes a clear statement about what they will be used for.
Mr Betts
Absolutely. We just do not know. All the power and the decision making are going to Ministers in a completely opaque way. We have a right to ask certain questions.
The Government initially introduced the principle because the comprehensive spending review, in placing limits on local government spending as a whole, created a problem for them. It was and is quite possible, with the rise in business rate linked to inflation, for the business rate and council tax collection after 2013-14 to amount to more than the spending control totals. The Government had to find a way of dealing with that problem, but there is no reason why it need continue after the current comprehensive spending review round. In future, the Government could make an assessment of the likely increases in business rates on the basis of their new system and accommodate that within the spending control totals, thus removing the need for set-aside altogether.
I understand the difficulties that the Government have got themselves into in the current spending round, but why continue the principle after that? In amendment 45, I have tried at least to raise the possibility of not allowing the set-aside to become an ongoing, potentially increasing amount of money that is decided by Ministers for ever and a day.
Heidi Alexander
London Councils describes the existence of the central share beyond the current comprehensive spending review period as
“a cynical attempt by the Government to limit the extent to which local government can benefit financially from the growth it will drive through its economic development activity and engagement with the business community.”
Does my hon. Friend consider that to be a fair assessment of what the Government are doing?
Mr Betts
What the Government are doing is twofold, because two problems are being exacerbated by the set-aside. By limiting the amount of money in the local government system, they are reducing not only the incentives for councils but their own ability to do some redistribution. If they did not use the set-aside and allowed more money to remain in the local government system, they might be able to resolve the conflict caused by their attempt to do two things with one tax. The less tax that they have in the system and the more restrictions they impose, the more that conflict will come into play—the conflict between the retention of money to encourage investment and more growth, and the need for redistribution and the mechanism enabling it to take place.
George Hollingbery
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way. He is being extremely generous with his time.
A number of Members have pointed out, both today and on Second Reading, that there is a relatively limited amount that local government can do to encourage business growth. It occurs to me, from a more philosophical viewpoint, that economic growth can be a public good, and that Government investment elsewhere in the economy can allow that growth to go ahead. Is it therefore entirely unreasonable for central Government to keep some of that business rate growth?
Mr Betts
I think it would be considered so by a localist who wants it to be possible for money that is raised at local level to be spent at local level. The complicating factor is that there must still be some element of redistribution. In the past that would have been dealt with by means of a Government grant, but it is now being dealt with through business rates. If central Government take away any element of that business rate growth, by definition they are reducing the incentives to encourage development and reducing the amount of money available for redistribution, thus worsening the problems that they are creating for themselves.
Let me issue a challenge to the Minister. Will there be any limits to, or criteria for, the determination of set-aside in a future comprehensive spending review, or will the Chancellor simply come up with a figure? Will business rates grow according to the level of the RPI, and will the difference between them constitute the set-aside? Will no more thought be given to it than that? Will there be any criteria on the basis of which the Government may review the system annually, or will the Secretary of State simply say, “I am not giving enough to the Chancellor this year, so we will have to amend the set-aside arrangements”?
I return to the question asked the hon. Member for Mid Dorset and North Poole (Annette Brooke). Will there be any criteria governing what the money can be used for? Will it be possible for it simply to go to the Treasury, or will there be some understanding that it will be spent on local initiatives? Will there be some understanding that if it is transferred back to councils to do certain things, they will be given power to do them? It may well be that there are things to be done by local government in the future that are not being done now. We have seen no evidence that any of that will happen.
Will we be given an assurance that the set-aside will not mean a further dispensation of largesse from the Secretary of State and the Minister in the shape of more specific and ring-fenced grants? The Government have almost completely abandoned ring-fenced grants, and I support that as a principle. May we have an assurance that the set-aside will not be used as a mechanism enabling the Secretary of State to say, “Look what I am giving you: more ring-fenced grants and more specific grants”—thus providing a photo-opportunity for a Minister to draw attention to what good things are being done with them by every council in the country?
May we also have some assurances that the Local Government Association and local government in general will be properly consulted on this each year? They should be consulted about the criteria, the proposals and the arrangements by which set-aside will be used and the amounts will be determined. Will there be transparency about where set-aside funding comes from and how it is spent across the country and which local authorities will benefit?
Finally, will we have assurances that this will not be simply a Government matter? This is the House of Commons of a sovereign Parliament. The annual decisions about set-aside and how it will be spent must be subject to discussion, debate and a vote in this House. We must have assurances that the ultimate power will remain with Members of Parliament, not Ministers.
Mr Kevan Jones
It is a privilege to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), who is not only a distinguished Chair of the Select Committee, but had a long and distinguished career in local government.
Today’s debate reminds me of the Second Reading debate in that, as my hon. Friend said, Members on the Government Benches are trying to have their cake and eat it. They want the nirvana of councils keeping all the business rates while also recognising that there should be some redistribution. The hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) made some strange comments about perverse incentives for councils to remain poor. I am yet to meet such a council, but he tried to get his colleagues to help him come up with an example. Councils in my area work very hard to attract business and prosperity, as they want to make their areas not only pleasant places to live in but economically active. The Government talk about localism a lot, but this Bill centralises more powers in the hands of the Secretary of State than any other local government reform of recent years.
On fairness, if we are to have a system whereby the contribution from national Government to local government is wiped out and we rely on business rates to provide the gap in funding, we must address the fact that different parts of Britain have different needs. Amendment 19 is important as it would ensure that that is reflected in the system.
From listening to some Members on the Government Benches, people would think some parts of the north are responsible for their own unemployment. Those Members fail to remember what happened in the late 1980s, when huge swathes of industry in the north-east were wiped out. Many areas are still recovering from that today.
There are also issues to do with population movement, which can lead to extra demands on local councils such as Durham county, where there is a large elderly population and many people who worked in heavy industry. Health needs in such areas are inevitably greater. Moreover, as County Durham is quite a rural community, even those in work often cannot move from place to place as easily as people in large cities.
I give credit to councils of all political persuasions throughout the country that have tried to encourage business into their areas. I am not convinced that keeping a small slice of the business rate is going to have a major impact, however. We should consider what the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats have done in the north-east in doing away with One North East. It was very effective at working with local councils and other partners to get inward investment and business growth. The hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) is not in his place at the moment, but he admitted that it is much easier to get business growth in his constituency than it is in mine or in those of many other hon. Members from the north of England.
Graham Jones
My hon. Friend raises a crucial point that has not been mentioned—the role of local enterprise partnerships. Lancashire has had a terrible problem with LEPs, which are skewing investment in certain areas and not interested in other areas—those who have been involved have said as much. The role that LEPs play across these district areas is not promoting business in certain parts, and that is having an adverse consequence. How can business be promoted and how can success be obtained in those conditions? Again, the Government are accountable for this.
Mr Kevan Jones
Again, that is part of the contradiction in the Government’s thinking and policy. As we have seen, LEPs are toothless tigers. They are not going to produce much growth or investment, as I know from the ones in the north-east. Certain people in the business community are becoming increasingly cynical and feel that LEPs are just going to be talking shops, rather than organisations that will do things to regenerate areas or attract growth.
Amendment 19 refers to “need” and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) said, it sets out the important issues that we need to take into consideration. I know from my north-east constituency that unemployment is a very important issue to take into account. The level of unemployment stands at 11.7% in the north-east of England, which is 3.5% above the national average. As my hon. Friend said, unemployment means that additional services are required and it puts further strains on local councils, which is why it is important to take it into account.
This debate is also about where we start from, which is why it is important to take the council tax base level into account. In the north-east, 50% of properties are in the lowest band, band A, whereas the corresponding figure for Surrey is just 2%, with 75% of properties there being in band D and above. It is very difficult for councils in the north-east to raise extra finance outside the business rate, so we are not starting on a level playing field. Mention has been made of South Tyneside, where 66% of properties are in band A, and that must be compared with the figure for Kensington and Chelsea of less than 2%.
Andrew Gwynne
My hon. Friend is making a superb point about the ability of local authorities to raise income from council tax. Is not a major issue for local authorities such as his and mine the fact that the formula grant for 2013-14 will lock in those very real cuts that such local authorities will have had to face from 2011-12 onwards?
Mr Jones
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for mentioning that, because I was about to discuss the baseline, as it has been set at 2011-12 levels. Durham county council had a grant reduction last year of some £10.9 million, which represents about a 4% loss, and that is now going to be set in stone for the next 10 years. Let us compare that with the situation in Wokingham, in Berkshire, whose authority actually had an increase in its grant of 0.2% and each person living there got an extra 30p in grant.
As I said on Second Reading, it is quite clear—I take my hat off to the Conservatives and do not know why the Liberal Democrats are turning a blind eye to this—that the Conservatives are looking after their own. They used to accuse the Labour party of doing so, but the Secretary of State makes no bones about the fact that he will help the people who voted for him. Does he give a stuff about the north-east and other places? No, I do not think he does.
It is important that we consider need because, as I said and as my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North said earlier, with unemployment, a more elderly population and deprivation, people use council services more in such areas. Some 31% of the people living in County Durham, for example, live in the top 20% of the most deprived areas in Britain and 21.8% of children in the county live in homes that are classed as in poverty. In Wokingham, that figure is under 7%. The demand for local services in Durham is obviously a lot higher. Likewise, eight people go for every job in County Durham. A good example is looked-after children: in Wokingham, there are 22 per 10,000 children whereas in Middlesbrough, in the north-east, there are 104 per 10,000.
It is not just about the numbers but about the types of services. Elderly care and services for looked-after children are very expensive to provide. There is no cheap way of looking after elderly people or vulnerable children in care, so that puts added pressure on those councils. That must be taken into account in any assessment, as otherwise we will do exactly what my hon. Friend said that we would. We will start from the premise that this Government like to put out, which is that irrespective of where a local government organisation is in this country, there is a level playing field. There is not. Any system must take need into account and that is why amendment 19 is important and why I do not understand the Government's not being in favour of it.
Another issue that we heard about on Second Reading and that we have heard about again tonight is the idea that by retaining a certain percentage of the business rate councils will be able to incentivise and develop business. That might well be the case in some areas, but councils must cater for other factors, one of which is location. My hon. Friend mentioned Consett. Consett has actually done very well in attracting businesses, but it is a damn sight harder attracting jobs there than it is in parts of the south-east and London.
Graham Stringer
Does my hon. Friend agree that a local authority cannot possibly be incentivised to do more—most of them want to do quite a lot—by reducing the overall level of resources? The contention that a little incentive on one hand and a huge loss of grant on the other will mean that they work harder is extraordinary.
Mr Jones
I totally agree with my hon. Friend. It is a double whammy for local authorities, really, as even if they could keep some of the money and use it for incentivisation, the huge proposed cut through the 10% reduction in council tax benefit that they will have to administer will fall disproportionately on areas with large numbers of unemployed people and the elderly. Absorbing that will be very difficult for a lot of councils, certainly in the hard economic times we are in at the moment. As unemployment goes up, the pressures on the councils will increase, too.
Mr Watts
Is it not the case that if a deprived local authority gets less grant, one way or the other, it will still have to provide the key services that my hon. Friend refers to, which will mean that it will have less money for economic development initiatives in its areas? That will go counter to the Government’s stated intention for this proposal.
Mr Jones
Indeed. When local businesses in my constituency want to expand, the first thing they will ask is, “Where are the grants?”, but there are none any more because One North East has gone and the amount that the council or anyone else has to give to help is usually small. There is a perception that this change will make a real difference to most areas, but it will not; the effect will be marginal at most. My hon. Friend is also right that councils cannot just stop providing elderly care and other services. In the present round of cuts, the problem is trying to explain to people what is statutory and what is not. This Government know exactly what they are doing—[Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) chuckles, but what I mean is that they know exactly what they are doing politically on this issue.
Mr Jones
A bit far, perhaps. The Government know exactly what they are doing. As I said on Second Reading, their strategy is quite clear: they want to give freedoms to local councils, push decision making down as far as possible and then, when they have cut grants, as they will with council tax benefit and others, they will say to local people, “Well, it’s your local council that has to decide how and where the cuts come.” The Government will stand back and say, “We’re sorry, but it’s nothing to do with us.” That is the clever side of it. Part of their strategy is about making sure that they save money and cut it out of the system but that local councils, rather than themselves, get the blame for implementing the cuts.
Andrew Gwynne
Does my hon. Friend agree that an unforeseen consequence of the Bill could be that local authorities become overly dependent on one type of economic development—the type they can generate the most from in business rates? In an area such as mine, that would mean an overdependence on retail.
Mr Jones
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. In terms of economic development, local authorities might go for what will generate income rather than what will create the right mixture. Although retail shopping and warehousing produce business rates, they do not produce large numbers of local jobs, but there might be a growth in those types of business in some areas.
We should not be fooled into believing that the Government do not know what they are doing, because they do know. They are passing legislation down to local government and making sure that those in central Government do not get the blame. We need to be saying that these cuts have been implemented because of the Government—including the Liberal Democrats. It amazes me that Liberal Democrats in Durham can complain about the closure of leisure services or a leisure centre while stepping back and saying, “It’s nothing to do with us,” even though their representatives on the Front Bench in government and others are going through the Lobby to vote for such measures, as they will tonight. Without amendment 19, and without some assessment of need in the Bill, I have little faith that the Government will not do what they have a track record of doing: rewarding the areas that vote for them.
Robert Neill
The debate on these amendments has been lengthy and wide-ranging, and I shall do my best to do justice to the points raised. Some of them were specific, technical and helpful, whereas others seemed to seek to reopen elements of the Second Reading debate and, perhaps, the debate on the finance settlement. I am afraid that sometimes they were rather wide of the mark. In general, I regret to say that I shall ask the Committee to reject all these amendments if they are not withdrawn because they seem to miss some fundamental points. First, the system already recognises a balancing of need and resources: that happens now and will continue to happen. Secondly, if we are to move away from a system of excessive dependency by local government on central Government grant in order to reduce reliance on central Government grant and create incentives for growth at a local and national level, we have to move away from the current, highly centralised system. Nothing has been advanced to suggest that the current system produces the transparency—
Robert Neill
The hon. Gentleman has been very vocal, so I shall make a little progress and perhaps give way in due course. Serious points were raised in debate, and I will do my best to respond to them, if I may.
The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. Mr Jones, please stop shouting across the Chamber. Either try and intervene or please be quiet.
Robert Neill
Before I give way to the hon. Gentleman, he might like to reflect on this. He has been very vocal about the Second Reading debate. I remind him of this passage, when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, following this very point, said:
“Economic success is not a southern phenomenon”,
and the hon. Gentleman intervened and said:
“Yes, it is.”—[Official Report, 10 January 2012; Vol. 538, c. 81.]
Would he like to explain that?
Mr Jones
The Minister does not quite understand. It is for me to ask him questions in interventions, not the other way round. He said that there were perverse incentives in local government. Can he name one council where that is the case? The hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) could not.
Robert Neill
My hon. Friend specifically gave the example of his own council. The point that the hon. Gentleman and many other Opposition Members do not get is that the Bill is not just about dealing with the short-term issues of one-year funding settlements. It is about creating a system that certainly has an element of equalisation in it, because as we all know, all local government finance systems going back many years have always had a degree of equalisation. The hon. Member for Sheffield South East, the Chairman of the Select Committee—
Robert Neill
I will make a little progress before I give way again.
The hon. Member for Sheffield South East took us a little way down memory lane with GREAs and SSAs. There has always been an element of equalisation and that will continue. The rather complicated and highly prescriptive process that is built into the amendments does not improve on what is set out in the Bill. Indeed, it would undermine some of the key objectives of the Bill.
The hon. Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) and her hon. Friends are seeking to place what we regard as an unnecessary requirement on the Secretary of State to undertake multiple and frequent assessments of needs. That undermines the key objective of long-term certainty which provides the incentive and also stability in a local authority’s funding. As it is, the needs and resources elements are taken into account at the setting of the baseline. The baseline is set and then it runs forward. They are taken into account. Some people say, “Go back to a previous year on the baseline”, even though that would involve more out-of-date data and formulae. Many would say that that was not fair.
Robert Neill
Let me finish the point and hon. Members may find that their intervention falls into place better.
Local authorities’ baseline funding levels are set on the basis of the 2012-13 formula grant. The calculation of the tariffs and the top-ups will then ensure that the funding at the outset of the scheme is in line with that assessment of relative need and resource. That is in our system. After that, the baseline levels, tariffs and top-up funding remain fixed and the budgets grow in line with the incentive.
If the system is reset too frequently, that undermines the incentive that we wish to achieve, and in particular it severely diminishes the value of the important introduction in the Bill of tax increment financing. For tax increment financing, which the local government world has wanted for a long time and which the Lyons review advocated introducing, it is important to have a reasonable degree of certainty about the income stream against which we can securitise. That is undermined if interference and change in the system are too frequent.
I understand the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) about uprating in line with the RPI, and I accept that there has to be a degree of trade-off in this. It means that top-up local authorities will have a degree of assurance throughout the period of the reset that their income levels will grow by inflation. That is particularly important in the case of two-tier areas, where the county councils responsible for a large number of personal services will be predominantly top-up authorities. Much the same will apply to other precepting authorities, such as the combined and stand-alone fire and rescue authorities. I accept that arguments were made on either side, but, as is always the case, a balance has to be achieved, as I know my hon. Friend will recognise.
Mr Watts
I accept that revaluation too often can cause a problem, but does the Minister agree that the valuation process has not been changed for many years and the longer the period without a revaluation, the more likely it is that no Government will do it because it will make such a difference and there will be winners and losers? There has to be some sort of judgment between how long is too short and how long is too long for a review, and is not 10 years too long?
Robert Neill
I do not think that 10 years is too long. We think that it gives a sensible balance. But it is a good reason not to put such matters in primary legislation and to say instead that they should be developed through regulations, which, as we know, will be subject to scrutiny by the House. I should have thought that that meets the hon. Gentleman’s point. An assessment is built into the system, which is then taken forward. That is why the updating report is there.
A second point concerns the question of the central share and the set-aside. I am sure that when hon. Members reflect upon this they will realise that we have always made it clear that over time, particularly when we have put the public finances back on track, we would hope to increase the proportion of business rates to the part of the rates retention scheme. But it would be imprudent to suppose—Opposition Members would not have done so when they were in government—that there might never be an occasion when the central share might need to be maintained, or on occasion, heaven forbid, increased. I believe that the economic policies of the Government will mean that it is not necessary, but legislation has to cater for various eventualities. As I say, it is our aspiration that that should increase, but equally, as hon. Members will know, the Government have, and will always have, an interest in the totality of public spending. To expect the Government to have no control over local government finance, when it is such a significant percentage of public expenditure, would be unrealistic. That is not the case under the current scheme, and it would not be realistic in future. In that regard, some of the amendments would constrain the Government unrealistically, and I hope hon. Members will understand why.
Mark Field
I accept that the straitened financial times make things very difficult, but do I take from what my hon. Friend has said that there is a longer-term aspiration, if not necessarily a fully fledged commitment at this stage, that we should look to allow local authorities to raise the council tax in future to ensure that there is a little more of a balance; that some more of the money that they are expending comes from local residents? I accept that this is not a short-term measure given the financial constraints that we are under, and I understand why the Government have tried to provide such incentives to freeze the council tax at the moment, but in the longer term, the rebalancing to which he refers should ensure that local government has other full sources of income possibly to rely upon.
Robert Neill
I understand my hon. Friend’s point. He refers to the council tax, which is a separate part of the income stream from the business rates. Of course, we have ourselves removed capping and substituted the ability, even under current circumstances, for a local authority to go to its voters by way of a referendum, which is a move in the direction of giving greater flexibility. It is the authority’s local call. In relation to the business rates element of its income, I restate that it is our desire to ensure that there is flexibility for the future. This is not intended to be a system that lasts for two or three years. I am in favour of multiple-year funding settlements, which I think we all agree on, but our system is intended to last for a much longer period. I hope that that reassures hon. Members.
Mr Betts
I thank the Minister for the slight reassurances about his thinking on the future of the set-aside, but will he reflect on the fact that many countries manage a different relationship between central and local government with more flexibility for local government? Can he think of any other advanced western democracy where local government taxes are used by central Government for their own purposes, rather than for those of local authorities?
Robert Neill
It is perfectly fair to observe that the local government finance system in this country is highly centralised, and many of us have often said that we want to make it less so. The Bill will do precisely that. I am reminded of the old phrase, “Half a loaf is better than none.” As the hon. Gentleman will know, the Lyons inquiry into local government, which the previous Government established, found that the system was too centralised, but Opposition Members conveniently ignored that when in government. We are doing something about it, so his ambition is being met at least in part.
I will say something about how this will operate. The central and local shares will have to be set out in the annual local government finance report. We will consult local government on the draft report, as we currently do, which will then be laid before the House and subject to the rigour of parliamentary scrutiny. A statutory consultation, as proposed in amendment 38, is unnecessary, as that will happen as a matter of course. We do not envisage that the shares, once they have been set at the outset, will be changed from year to year. That gives certainty that the uprating for the top-ups and tariffs will be protected until we come to a reset. We have already debated what will be the most appropriate period before a reset. That is why amendment 37 does not give any greater clarity.
The Government’s intention is that the money that comes into the central share will be returned in its entirety to local government, as currently required by the Finance Act 1988. We will do so by funding local government by grant that is outside what is currently formula grant and will now be in the rates retention scheme. There are plenty of examples of localised grants that are made in that way—for example those relating to neighbourhood policing and homelessness grants. The suggestion, from the authors of the current system, that that is centralising should win the award for chutzpah of the year so far, although it is only 18 January.
These changes are an important step towards localisation. There is a great deal of detail and we have undertaken to consult on the regulations, and I assure hon. Members that they will be subject to the scrutiny procedures of the House. As I said earlier, we have set up a working group at official level to talk through the details with the local government sector.
I have a great deal of respect for the right hon. Member for Wentworth and Dearne, who is no longer in his place but, for the reasons I have set out, I do not believe that amendment 46 is necessary to achieve a degree of fairness in the system. It would have a perverse effect, as it would prevent any of the central share money from being used to fund transitional protection arrangements under the transitional rate relief scheme. Schedule 1, as drafted, permits that, which means that transitional payments under the rate relief scheme would not fall on local government. Central Government would be in a position to pick up the cost if disparities arose. Under the amendments, the costs would have to fall on local government, which is not his intention. I hope that he will consider withdrawing the amendment before we come to vote.
I will turn briefly to the two Government amendments in the group. They relate to seriously technical parts of the schedule. I apologise for that, but they are important. First, they increase the amount that can be debited from the main rating account to include payments received in respect of central list contributions and payments that are made as contributions in aid. Those payments are made directly to the Secretary of State.
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Sir Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. In the past two hours, Members of Parliament have been denied access to an internet site, www.ipsa.shadow.com, which is supportive of Members of Parliament. The official print-off states, “Access is denied to the website you have selected because it belongs to a category that is blocked.” Can we have an investigation into who within the House is blocking Members of Parliament accessing anything, and in particular something to do with the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, especially when it is favourable to Members of Parliament?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
There is a rarity. Although that is not a point of order for the Chair, my recollection is that a phone number is usually given when access to a site is denied. My suggestion to the hon. Gentleman would be either to telephone that number, or if no number is given, to phone Parliamentary Information and Communications Technology. I am sure that PICT will be able to give the reason why Sir Bob is not being given the answer he wants.
Tees Valley Spinal Unit
(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Phil Wilson (Sedgefield) (Lab)
I want to highlight the work of the spinal unit at the University Hospital of North Tees and the charitable support group established in 1999 by patients who have used the spinal unit for surgery to relieve chronic back pain, allowing some patients to walk again and many others to get on with their lives pain-free. I speak with first-hand knowledge of the unit and its support group because of the major spine surgery performed on me in November 2008, after years of pain.
At a time of controversial change to the NHS, I want to put on record my belief that the spinal unit at the University Hospital of North Tees and the volunteer network that supports patients before and after treatment is a shining illustration of all that is good about the NHS, and should be an example of how other acute care and chronic pain services should operate elsewhere. Recent advances have made spine surgery safer and more effective and now there are safe and effective surgical options to treat back pain. It is no longer accurate to tell patients that nothing can be done and they just have to live with it. The North Tees spinal unit specialises in the holistic treatment of spinal pain—from physio to surgery, with surgery being the last option.
The spinal unit at the University Hospital of North Tees is in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham), who is a good friend of the hospital. It serves the Tees Valley and South Durham area, including my constituency, but its reputation has now reached far and wide, with patients travelling from all parts of the country for treatment. The spinal unit was set up in 1997 by consultant spinal surgeon Manoj Krishna, who operated on me. The unit was originally staffed by two spinal surgeons but is now staffed by three dedicated consultant spinal surgeons supported by associate specialists and middle-grade doctors, nurses, allied health professionals and other support services such as radiology. The unit offers a number of leading therapeutic, non-surgical and surgical procedures. My understanding of the procedures used is only surpassed by my complete inability to pronounce many of them, but they include lumbar disc replacement, neck surgery and other surgery on the spine.
The spinal assessment team’s specialist nurses carefully examine patients’ medical history to establish the best course of treatment for each case. Patients who require non-operative treatment are then channelled to the appropriate department and patients requiring surgery are referred for treatment in the spinal surgical unit. The unit’s consultants see about 2,000 new patients a year, usually from the musculoskeletal service but sometimes directly from GPs both in and out of the area. Patients come from as far as London and the south-west to have their surgery at North Tees. Fifteen major spinal operations are carried out in the unit each week. The average length of stay in the unit is two and a half days. The unit is a training centre for specialist registrar and spinal fellowship programmes. It is active in research and development, represented on the national and international stage.
I suffered from back pain for years. Initially, the periods between incidents of pain were long, lasting several months. Then the pain became constant. The by-election that I fought in 2007 was not pain-free, but was something that had to be coped with of necessity. One does learn coping techniques—for instance, exercise and physiotherapy are essential—but the more the pain intensified, the stronger the painkillers became. Heat wraps and ice packs were bought in abundance as a short-term remedy.
Coping mechanisms included wearing slip-on shoes because it was too painful to bend over to fasten shoelaces. Books, television remote controls and clothes would be left on the backs of chairs or on shelves at a particular height so it was not necessary to bend or stretch. Working in the office meant standing at the filing cabinet, using it as a desk, or walking around the room reading papers or documents. Sitting for any length of time could be torture. Standing in the Chamber attempting to catch the Speaker’s eye would be a welcome relief for a few seconds, and speaking would be a relief in more ways than one. The pain would be in the legs rather than the back, because the damaged disc was catching the sciatic nerve.
My back was continuing to deteriorate. I was referred to Manoj Krishna, who treated me for about a year with physiotherapy regimes and epidurals that bathed the base of my spine with anaesthetic. All the treatments worked for a time, but the underlying problems caused by discs that were disintegrating meant that I needed surgery. The surgery meant removing the two offending discs and fusing the three vertebrae. Years ago that technique meant recuperating in hospital for many weeks, but in November 2008, when I had the operation, I hobbled into the hospital on a Wednesday morning and walked out on Thursday afternoon, less than 48 hours later. I have not looked back since. Nevertheless, surgery is not a silver bullet. People must continue to exercise, and must not take for granted the new lease of life that the operation has given them. Mr Krishna told me that I had an 80% chance of being 80% better, and I am, I think, more than 80% better. I experience the odd twinge, but the pain that I had before is gone.
My story is not unique; far from it. The cost to the individual, the family and the nation of chronic back pain is massive. Back pain is common in the UK. In any given year, about 30% of the population suffers from it, and 20% of the population—12 million patients—visit their GP with it. Between 3% and 4% of the population are chronically disabled by back pain, and 52 million work days a year are lost because of it. The chance of someone’s returning to work after being off work with it for two years is less than 5%. Research shows that, for the individual, sudden severe and then chronic back pain is debilitating and can result in low mood, loss of libido, disturbed sleep, poor appetite or weight loss, fatigue, feeling worthless, problems with concentration, and even thoughts of suicide.
Back pain can also threaten the stability of the sufferer’s family, possibly leading to marital and family breakdown. Because it often strikes during a person’s maximum earning period, it can threaten the economic survival of the family unit. A person’s back pain and associated side effects can become very draining for the family, as an inability to remain in one position for any length of time threatens normal daily activity as well as leisure. The extent to which the whole family is affected when one of its members has back pain cannot be underestimated. The economic consequences to the nation are also apparent. The individuals concerned are often at the peak of their earning capacity, and months and years of not being able to work and to contribute to society add to their feelings of worthlessness.
For those reasons, I want to pay a special tribute not only to the work of the spinal unit at University Hospital of North Tees but, more specifically, to the voluntary workers of the Tees Valley spinal support group. In 1999 Victoria Fenny, a patient waiting for back surgery, approached Mr Krishna and asked what support there was for patients with this debilitating condition. She wanted to talk to someone who had been through the experience, but no support group existed, and as a result the Tees Valley spinal support group was formed. The group, which now attracts at least 100 people to its quarterly meetings at the hospital’s teaching centre, includes former patients and those awaiting surgery, and provides an invaluable source of learning and support for the hundreds of people who have back and neck surgery each year.
The feedback from the group is used to improve the service further. Health professionals attending the support group say they learn as much from the patients as they teach them about how quickly they can get back to normal after surgery. North Tees and Hartlepool NHS Foundation Trust supports the work of the charity by providing a counselling room for patients where they can meet volunteers and talk about their concerns, and rooms at the teaching centre where the quarterly support groups are held.
The Tees Valley spinal support group is a registered charity and it raises funds to support the work of the spinal unit. I have visited the support group on a couple of occasions and it is good to speak to people who have suffered from the same symptoms—people who coped by wearing slip-ons, used the filing cabinet as a desk and left the TV remote on the back of the chair. I would like to place on record my recognition of the voluntary work undertaken by Victoria, and also Linda Botterill, Claire Poulton, Peter Evans, Peter Allan and Gordon Marron.
In 2011 the support group held its first fun-walk to raise funds for educational equipment for the unit. I met former patients who had spent years in wheelchairs but can now walk. I agree with Mr Manoj Krishna when he says that it is no longer accurate to tell patients nothing can be done for their back pain and they have to live with it. The skills are there. The support is there too. What can the Government do to ensure the excellent example of the spinal unit and its support group can be replicated around the country so that the millions of our citizens who suffer from back pain can receive the treatment they need instead of being told they just have to cope with it?
Is the Minister aware that Britain has 18 spinal surgeons per 100,000 head of population, whereas the Netherlands has 30 and the USA has 76? Back surgery rates in the UK are 30 per 100,000 head of population, as against 52 in Sweden, 115 in the Netherlands and 158 in the USA. What more can be done to improve Britain’s position, because we obviously have the talent, skills and expertise to be world leaders in this area?
What will the Government’s proposed reorganisation of the NHS do to ensure that patients who need the treatment will get the treatment, especially as spinal surgery techniques are rapidly improving and becoming ever more sophisticated? Finally, will the Minister join me in congratulating the management and the surgical and nursing staff at the hospital on the work they are doing to ensure chronic back pain is being treated with such professionalism? In particular, will he join me in congratulating the volunteers who run the support group, and who ensure that the service provided is holistic in its approach and helps secure the good will of patients to help other patients, in order to give them hope and address their fears? All specialties in all hospitals would do well to have their own support groups. I know from personal experience how important they are.
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul Burstow)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) on raising this important set of issues. The subject is close to my heart as well, as a result of my previous experiences as a Back Bencher raising similar issues about how we can deal with chronic back pain and ensure that pain is not an afterthought and the forgotten issue in the NHS, given how much it can blight the lives of so many people. Before saying a little more about that, I want to do what the hon. Gentleman asked me to do at the end of his remarks and pay tribute to both the excellent work the NHS staff working in his area do, sometimes under trying circumstances, and the work Victoria and the other people he mentioned do through their contribution as volunteers and supporters of other patients.
The hon. Gentleman vividly described his own experiences, and in doing so he has helped to turn a spotlight on these important issues. We must keep in mind the excellent care and consideration he received—and has rightly praised so highly—from Mr Krishna and that team’s other specialists. Their work has made a difference to his life, as well as to the lives of many of his constituents and many other people. This is a clear example of the NHS at its best, and I join the hon. Gentleman in paying tribute to all concerned.
Often it is a patient asking how they can get involved that provides the spark that leads to the sort of voluntary activity the hon. Gentleman has described. I certainly have no difficulty in paying tribute to Victoria for asking that question of Mr Krishna, which became the spark that has ignited so much good work since.
I am aware of the hon. Gentleman’s ongoing engagement with the group since his surgery in 2008. His remarks again highlighted the value of patients who have finally found relief after long-term chronic back pain having the opportunity to talk to others who are still going through the misery of their condition, as that can reassure people about what can be done. The support group’s work shows the extraordinary value of having the voluntary sector and volunteers working within our NHS. He asked what we can do to strengthen that approach and replicate the idea further. The first question at last week’s Health questions was about what we can do better to support volunteering in the NHS. I said then, and I repeat now, that we are working closely with the association of hospital volunteer co-ordinators to make sure that NHS boards have the information they need to make the right decisions about the investments they need to make to support voluntary organisations. These may be small investments, such as providing a bit of time or a room where people can provide the valuable emotional and other support that he describes. That approach is very much at the heart of the vision in our report on volunteering in the NHS. One way we can see that go further is by ensuring that local NHS organisations sign up to the compact agreements on the voluntary sector, so that they are fully engaging with their local voluntary and community sector and making full use of that way forward.
I understand that the Tees Valley spinal support group holds quarterly meetings and I am told that they are attended by hundreds of people, which, again, underscores how important these groups can be. Perhaps most important is the fact that charity volunteers who have received spinal surgery are available to talk about these issues, as that can be hugely reassuring. There is also enormous value in developing this whole area of hospital volunteer schemes. As the hon. Gentleman rightly said, this support group provides an excellent example, and I will want to use it to illustrate the benefits of such approaches. That is why I am keen to make sure that these volunteering opportunities go further.
I wish to reflect a little further on some of the points that the hon. Gentleman made, and there is broad agreement about many of them. He rightly highlighted the huge impact that back pain can have on people’s lives, saying that we can do better on treating and preventing it. This is a serious issue for the NHS, for the people affected and for the economy and our society as a whole, and it is not just about the most extreme cases where surgery proves necessary. He rightly says that surgery is no silver bullet, but when one rehearses the statistics, as he did, one finds that in the number of working days lost to illness, musculoskeletal conditions come second only to mental health problems, with a price tag for the economy of £5.3 billion a year. That occurs through lost work days, poor productivity and, in the most serious cases, people being shut out of work altogether and facing a lifetime of incapacity and difficulty.
In the shadow of the statistics that the hon. Gentleman has rehearsed there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people who have to cope with chronic back pain for many years. As he has said, some of these people are not given the opportunities they need to get the right support and the right treatment at the right time, so he was right to talk about the impact on the individual and about his personal experience, but there is also an impact on families, on relationships, on mental health and on a person’s well-being. For me, that points to the fact that when we think about health and well-being, we need to think bigger. He talked about holistic services that have an impact on poor health and tackle health conditions. That is very much part of what we are trying to achieve through some of the reforms to which he referred, so that improving mental health outcomes or issues to do with pain, for example, becomes not just about the Department of Health or the NHS but about what the Government, employers and many other organisations can do together. Occupational health is a key component of that.
I hope we can agree on some of the elements of the vision of what a society that actively promotes health and well-being looks like. Local communities, councils, the NHS and the voluntary sector, which has extraordinary power, should work together to begin to make a difference to the health and well-being of local people, and everything in the health system should point towards prevention. We should be able to say that the NHS is as good at preventing poor health as it is at treating it.
Let me say something about the need to ensure the integrated package of care mentioned by the hon. Gentleman. He listed some numbers and I would like to write to him about the numbers of spinal surgeons and so on, to give him a bit more detail on our thinking about how we can develop the NHS in respect of musculoskeletal conditions. There is a good story to tell and I want to set that out in more detail for him.
I also want to answer the hon. Gentleman’s important question about how reforms will support improvements in surgery services. In our view, the Health and Social Care Bill creates a number of the tools that will support continuous quality improvement in the service. The outcomes frameworks published for the NHS on social care and public health provide a greater opportunity for clarity and accountability and have been widely welcomed across the clinical community.
Let me answer the hon. Gentleman’s questions about what reform can do. Reform must allow much greater transparency so that we can see differences and variations in the service in different parts of the country. The publication of the health atlas is already driving commissioners to benchmark themselves against the best in the NHS. The use of tariffs will drive best practice in the services, too, and front-line staff will be empowered to use the clinical evidence—they know that this is the best practice—to deliver and commission the best possible services for their populations.
I thank the hon. Gentleman again for bringing this matter to the House tonight. He was right to want to praise the work of the spinal support group and the valuable contribution it makes to the lives of so many people in his community. I also praise the professionalism of the NHS staff who treated him and who treat his constituents. I am pleased to have the opportunity to put those remarks on the record and to endorse and underscore what he said.
Question put and agreed to.
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Definition of Gypsy Status
Westminster Hall
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Port of Southampton
(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
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Mr John Denham (Southampton, Itchen) (Lab)
I am grateful to Mr Speaker for granting this debate quickly, which, as will become clear, is appropriate. There are pressing issues facing the future of the port of Southampton that have to be resolved literally in the next few months if the full future of the port is to be secured. I am grateful for the strong and cross-party support here today from hon. Members from across Hampshire and the Isle of Wight.
May I say briefly that there is another issue about the future of the port of Southampton, which relates to investment in the cruise terminal and an application by Liverpool for a cruise terminal? That is not the subject of my remarks today. The arguments are well rehearsed, we believe in fair competition and the Minister is due to make an announcement on this in the fairly near future.
I want to concentrate on a different issue that is of equal importance to the future of Southampton and, in this case, critical to the future of the container terminal there. The debate has huge local, but also national, significance. Frankly, it presents a rare opportunity in the current economic climate, because a private sector company, Associated British Ports, is offering—indeed, is desperate—to invest £150 million of purely private money in infrastructure in the coming year. That investment is not just important for Southampton; it is vital for the infrastructure of UK plc. A study for Marine South East estimated that the contribution of the port of Southampton to the UK’s economy was £1.75 billion a year. Southampton is the fourth largest port in the UK, and the container terminal, operated by DP World, employs approximately 1,000 people. It is estimated that four jobs in the wider local economy are dependent on each of those jobs in the terminal.
Currently, most investment in UK infrastructure depends on public money for pump-priming, partnership and initial investment. However, ABP’s planned investment in Southampton is entirely private—it does not depend at all on matching investment. That is such good news that one might wonder why we need to have a debate in Westminster Hall. The problem is that over several years the project has suffered from entirely avoidable delay—mainly, it has to be said, at the hands of Government agencies, and partly due to the action of rival port operators who have exploited mistakes made by the Government machine to mount a legal challenge that is not in the public interest, but is purely to pursue their own commercial, competitive advantage.
Hon. Members from Hampshire and the Isle of Wight have come together today to urge the Minister to do everything he can, with his colleagues across Government, to ensure that there are no further delays. I am grateful for the briefing I have received from ABP, DP World and Unite, the union. All have exactly the same position on what needs to be done. Even in the days since requesting the debate, there has been some progress, but the project is so time-critical that any further slips, delays or mishaps—anyone taking their eye off the ball—could do immense damage.
Let me set the scene and the history. As I have said, the port is immensely successful. Productivity is high and Southampton is in the right geographical location for China and other south and east Asian trade, but the container business is changing. Some 13 years ago, the typical vessel was 4,000 TEUs—twenty-foot equivalent unit, which is the standard measure. Recently commissioned ships already in service are typically 9,000 to 10,000 TEUs, but in the next two years, ships as large as 16,000 TEUs will come into service. This is happening right across the industry with all the major carriers, and it certainly applies to Southampton’s major customers: the CMA CGM organisation and the G6, an alliance of Hapag Lloyd, OOCL, NYK, APL, MOL and Hyundai Merchant Marine. They have come together precisely to optimise the deployment of new and larger vessels.
Southampton can accommodate the larger, super-sized container ships if—but only if—it can reconstruct its existing container berths, known as 201 and 202, and carry out more extensive dredging both nearer the berth and the wider channel. That is what gives rise to the £150 million investment at the heart of the debate. Those ships are coming into service now and in the next two years, so the investment is time-critical. The risk is obvious—if there is any further delay and Southampton cannot offer its customers the capacity they want, business will be lost.
Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)
I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on securing the debate, which is as important to my constituents as it is to his and to those of other hon. Members here today. He rightly says that any further delay could be fatal. Will he confirm that the September 2012 to March 2013 “piling window”, as it is known, is the critical date window that we are tied to here? Any further delay would result in an additional 12-month delay in doing the work that is needed out in the channel.
Mr Denham
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right, and I will explain the reason why that September to March period is so critical. For entirely legitimate environmental reasons, that activity cannot take place all year round, so we could miss that deadline. As I will say in a moment, contracts need to be let ahead of September if work is going to be started in September—that is critical. If it is not done by next year, the port clearly will be unable to offer the capacity it would like to for the latter part of 2012 and, in particular, 2013.
This debate should not be necessary. The need for investment was identified in a scoping study submitted by ABP to the Marine and Fisheries Agency, the predecessor of today’s Marine Management Organisation, in 2007—in what most people regard as perfectly good time to get the necessary approvals and to get the work under way. In January 2008, following consultation with various bodies, the MMO issued a formal scoping opinion that advised ABP of the scope and content of the required environmental impact assessment. That point is crucial, because not for the last time in this process, ABP was advised and directed to take a particular course of action, and it complied fully. ABP submitted its application on 15 December 2008. The applications were advertised using a form of words directed by the MMO. In February 2009, issues were raised in consultation by Natural England, the Environment Agency and the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds and, I understand, successfully resolved. However, in December 2009, nearly two years after the MMO’s original scoping opinion, the MMO then decided that the public notice it had supplied was incorrectly worded. ABP was asked to place further public notices, using replacement wording supplied by the MMO. That mistake delayed the process by a full 10 months. It is worth noting that Hutchison Ports, the operators of Felixstowe, did not raise any objections during the original consultation. However, following the re-advertisement and during the second consultation, it then did, arguing that the original environmental impact assessment, which was drawn up to the MMO’s specification, had not considered operational impact issues.
Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)
Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why Network Rail and the Highways Agency were not included in the original consultation?
Mr Denham
The point about this procedure is twofold. Throughout this process, ABP took guidance from the MMO as to what requirements it needed to fulfil. It was reasonable for ABP to do that. It is because it was not well advised—indeed, it was advised to do other things—that we have ended up in this position.
In April 2010, following the re-advertisement and the intervention from Hutchison, which has no local interest at all in this matter—it is purely a commercial rival issue—and having raised those issues, the chief executive of the MMO wrote to ABP, stating:
“Please be assured that the MMO is working pro-actively with ABP to resolve these cases swiftly.”
However, it was not until February 2011, more than three years after the original application, that the MMO finally issued consent, in good time to get this work under way.
Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab)
Obviously, hon. Members from Merseyside oppose the proposed blocking of the cruise terminal at Liverpool. However, on this issue we fully support my right hon. Friend. Does he agree that this scheme demonstrates how out of date our planning process is? Is not the economy suffering because we cannot make quick decisions? I hope the Minister will consider speeding the whole process up, so that we can get such schemes introduced much more quickly.
Mr Denham
I want to concentrate on getting this scheme approved. However, when the dust has settled it will be clear that the scope for getting things wrong and for commercial challenges by people who have no interest in environmental issues in the Southampton area is so great that it can lead to huge delays. If our collective attempts to get investment in the UK infrastructure are bogged down in legal challenges between rival commercial companies, enormous damage will be done to the chances of getting infrastructure investment under way and rebuilding the economy. There has to be a point where every major company is prepared to consider what is in the UK national interest, not a narrow view of what is in their own local commercial interest.
Mr George Howarth (Knowsley) (Lab)
May I thank my right hon. Friend for the reasonable way he has dealt with the conflict between Southampton and Liverpool? He is aware, though, that there are still problems between Liverpool city council and the local authority in Southampton. Liverpool city council has asked for talks with Southampton to see whether common ground can be found. That is a good idea. Does he agree that those local authorities should get together and find common ground, so that it is not either/or, but possibly both?
Mr Denham
We are perfectly clear that Liverpool is utterly entitled to have a cruise terminal. The question is whether, given that the one operating successfully in Southampton has been developed entirely with private sector finance, the one in Liverpool should not operate according to the same principles of fair competition. We are more than happy to have that discussion, but I do not want to spend my time this morning getting too far into that issue, because we are in the last critical weeks that will determine whether this investment in Southampton takes place in the autumn. I want to focus on that.
Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)
I declare an interest. As deputy general secretary of Unite, I worked with ABP, the local authority and the work force, who are members of Unite, in seeking to drive this project forward. The common ground is the need to rebalance and grow our economy, although we may disagree on how to do that.
Does my right hon. Friend agree that infrastructure is key if we are to grow the economy? This development is in the national interest and the interests of growing the economy. Any further delay will damage not only the interests of Southampton but the prospects of economic recovery.
Mr Denham
My hon. Friend is right. The involvement of Felixstowe’s owners in this matter gives a UK angle to the competition, but the blunt truth is that there is no reason to believe that the container work lost from Southampton will end up anywhere in the UK. If the effect is that ships go to Rotterdam and their cargo is broken down for trans-shipment, there is a huge loss to the entire UK economy. That is why a view of what is in the interests of the whole UK is crucial. We can have local fights, but we will look pretty ridiculous if we end up damaging the whole UK economy and sending the business elsewhere.
Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on obtaining this debate. I support the burden of his remarks. The planning system has become obstructive, although it is understandable that Hutchison Ports, for example, should insist that rules that are being made to apply to it and stifling its investment programme should be applied evenly throughout the industry. That was the burden of its complaint.
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree—and support the Government on this point—that we need to renegotiate the habitats directive, because that is being used, as much as anything, to stymie and bog down important infrastructure projects for bogus, spurious technical and legal reasons, rather than genuine environmental reasons?
Mr Denham
I have some sympathy with the hon. Gentleman’s final point. If the objections were coming from Natural England, the Environment Agency, the RSPB and local environment organisations in Hampshire—even if they were using the habitats directive—I would understand their legitimacy. What people in Southampton cannot understand is that, essentially, technical and legal mistakes are being exploited to damage investment.
The hon. Gentleman properly represents his part of the country and his constituents. I hope that he will take back the message that Hutchinson’s may feel that it has made its point, but to continue to pursue this matter now would do enormous damage to the UK economy and to the port of Southampton.
Mr Denham
Planning rules may be a problem, but they do not always necessarily need to be exploited to damage an investment.
In 2011, three years after the original application, the MMO issued consent. Two months later, Hutchison commenced judicial review proceedings in the High Court, alleging that the environmental impact assessment was defective. In June 2011, without discussion with ABP, the MMO, having listened to that objection, withdrew its consent. The critical issue is, as I understand it, that the judicial review application by Hutchison did not raise any issues that had not previously been raised in 2010 and that the MMO had every opportunity to consider. What actually happened is that the MMO had the chance to consider those objections and decided not to act on them, or decided that they did not have a substantial basis in fact, and issued the consent, but then, faced with a High Court challenge, changed its mind. It is another case where the MMO’s handing of the matter has badly let down everybody involved in the port of Southampton.
Since then, there has been further delay. ABP responded to further requests for analysis that it said it would deliver by 30 September 2011. Just three days before that date, the MMO asked ABP to produce additional information, which caused a further delay. Then—without going through all the twists and turns—there was a further lengthy delay before the MMO finally commenced the consultation on 11 January 2012.
I have gone over the history not to rake up old issues but to stress, for the benefit of the Minister with responsibility for shipping and ports, that the port of Southampton has been on the receiving end of particularly poor treatment by Government agencies, not just under this Government, but in the past. As a result, this major investment has yet to start. I will not hold the Minister or his predecessor, who will be contributing from the Opposition Front Bench, personally responsible for these errors. We know that these things happen deep in the depths of agencies far away, in normal circumstances, from ministerial decisions, but there are times when Ministers need to act.
I wrote to the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs about this matter in August and again in September. I have to say that, although I am sure that the letters that I received were legally correct, there was no sense of urgency coming from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on how the MMO would handle this matter. I was told that, since June, the MMO had maintained a single point of contact with ABP in Southampton and that, in July, it assigned a case team to the application. However, as I have said, that did not prevent further and later requests from the MMO to ABP for additional analysis and information that further delayed the project.
I wrote to the Prime Minister on 24 November. I hope that I am not unduly pompous as an ex-Minister, but there was a time when former Secretaries of State and Privy Counsellors who wrote to Prime Ministers would get a reply a from the Prime Minister or a Secretary of State. I am afraid that it took two months for the Prime Minister to get a junior Minister in DEFRA to send me back pretty much the same letter that I had got from the Secretary of State. There is no sense that the Downing street machine has grasped that it could play a role in making sure that this happens.
We are now at a critical point. The consultation is under way again—that is important—but the consultation period is six weeks. Objections must then be properly considered, because that is the legal process. The MMO must therefore consider objectively any issue raised so that, should it give approval, its decision cannot be challenged. The potential for delay is significant, and it is essential for the MMO to have sufficient resources and access to sufficient expertise to give the decision proper consideration. That is what I am asking the Minister to take away today and to take to his colleagues in DEFRA. We cannot have a situation in which either the MMO does not have the resources or expertise to consider the consultation responses properly or mistakes are made, thus laying the process open to further legal challenge.
I ask the Minister to consider one other factor. It is not for him or the House to constrain the courts, but in truth the move for judicial review came not from a statutory or voluntary environmental organisation, nor from any group that might be affected by the environmental impact of the port, but from a commercial operator, and it seems pretty clear that the motives were to inflict commercial damage on a rival. That raises a massive challenge to the Government’s plans to encourage infrastructure investment in the UK.
Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)
Before my right hon. Friend concludes, I absolutely support the aim expressed in his earlier comments that we should work in the greater interest of the whole UK economy. Will he therefore agree to broker a meeting between the Southampton and Liverpool authorities, so that we can put to bed the animosity between the two and move forward on what is in the interest of both Liverpool and the UK, to grow the economy in Merseyside?
Mr Denham
Our two great port cities have a lot in common, in history and in the future, and I hope that Southampton and Liverpool will work together in the future. The Minister’s decision on the issue is imminent, and we will all want to consider it carefully. We are very consistent in Southampton: we are not saying that Liverpool should not have a cruise terminal; we are merely saying that competition should be fair and on the same basis of cruise terminal capacity development. We are not out to say, “You have no right to have cruise ships. You have no right to have this industry,” but the competition must be fair, so if meetings will improve understanding, they would be helpful.
The vast majority of ports in this country are privately operated, but they all depend on either the actions of Government agencies or, sometimes, public investment. The Government’s infrastructure plan, for example, included proposals to improve roads that would help, among other things, to support the port of Felixstowe. We will get into a terrible position, however, if urgent investment in the UK economy routinely becomes the matter of legal challenge by different commercial companies picking up technicalities and details of arguments rather than pursuing the UK national interest. I do not expect the Minister to say much or, probably, if he is prudent, anything at all on that point—I am sure that he will be measured—but Ministers need to have that serious discussion with major companies in this country, to ensure that the interests of UK plc always come first, particularly in such difficult times.
Mr Andrew Turner (Isle of Wight) (Con)
Many islanders from my constituency take great pride in being physically separate from the mainland UK, but most recognise the value of its proximity. An acknowledgement of that fact is that so many of my constituents, especially in the north of the island, rely on the mainland for work and it explains why I am taking an interest in the debate.
I offer my support to the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) to get the Southampton port project moving. As already explained, the aggressive legal action by another port authority has slowed the port expansion proposal to a halt, instead requiring a further review of environmental issues, and that is simply not acceptable. How can a project that requires no public funding, while providing growth, education in the form of apprenticeships, and employment, be held up? That is exactly the sort of behaviour that the Government abhor, yet it is happening.
The sustainable growth of the port of Southampton is incredibly important for the city of Southampton and its hinterland, and the Isle of Wight falls within that remit. Indeed, the success of Southampton is due in no small part to the fact that the island is where it is, protecting the Solent. The island also provides a 360° catchment area, whereas most ports normally have a 180° area because of the very fact of being on the coast. Also, on the island, we rely heavily on the connection to Southampton, which I am told is the third largest port in the country, while East Cowes is the seventh busiest port in the UK. Given the proximity of one port to the other, with the ferry link provided by Red Funnel, East Cowes’s success is very much reliant on that of Southampton.
Tourism is also crucial to the success of the whole region. Hampshire and the Isle of Wight have such a fabulous coastline that it draws huge numbers of people every year. The proposed redevelopment of Mayflower park would play a key role in improving the attraction for tourism. The importance of tourism is reflected by Southampton being the leading destination in the UK for cruise ships, and that business is critical to the local and indeed the wider economy. As the home of famous British shipping companies such as P&O, Cunard and Carnival, Southampton is also part of the heritage of our seafaring nation.
The financial argument for the development proceeding, however, is the most important one. With our country in the doldrums economically for the moment, infrastructure improvements such as the Southampton one have gained increasing importance. What makes it even more surprising that the plan has not moved forward is that no public money is involved in the expansion. The Government have been keen on such infrastructure developments, and we only have to cite High Speed 2 to see that, the difference being that one will cost public money and Southampton port will cost nothing.
What of the island? More than 2,000 people commute from Cowes to Southampton every day of the week, so it is perfectly clear that jobs in Southampton lead to more jobs for islanders. In that respect, as I said at the start, I am fully behind the proposals, and I find it incredible that the process has taken so long to date. Once completed, the development will provide employment to countless families, improve the regional economy, reaffirm Southampton as a world-class port with facilities for the largest ships on the ocean and take the port and city of Southampton further into this century with the capacity that they need. I ask the Government to do everything that they can to ensure that the process is expedited with the appropriate permissions as soon as possible. The delay has been too long.
Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab)
It is appropriate that we are discussing Southampton port this morning, one day before the House discusses the national ports infrastructure planning document. That document looks, among other things, at the whole question of the strategic role of ports in the UK and at the requirements for ensuring that our ports continue to play such a strategic role in the best way that we can arrange. That is vital.
UK ports provide 95% of our capacity for importing and exporting goods; 95% of imports and exports go through UK ports. So the best possible deployment of UK ports is essential. Historically, Southampton, with Felixstowe and many other UK ports, has always played a major role in providing that national infrastructure, which, as hon. Members have said, is being maintained and improved predominantly on the basis of investment by the companies that run the ports.
Southampton and Felixstowe are particularly important in terms of national strategic planning inasmuch as they are two of the country’s leading container ports with a large throughput of containers. They are either side of London, in close proximity to major international shipping routes, and are vitally placed for receipt of containers, which then go to the rest of the UK. Indeed, the Government have recognised the importance of those strategic ports in terms of what has happened with assistance not to the ports, but to the infrastructure in the recent upgrade of the rail line from Southampton to the midlands, and the proposed upgrade in road access to Felixstowe port.
The Government have recognised the infrastructure considerations for the same reason that ports recognise what they need to do to maintain their competitiveness, not with one another, but as part of the national ports infrastructure. The Southampton rail upgrade is a good example. The international standard now is high-box containers with a height of 9 feet. They cannot be transported efficiently on traditional rail-based container transport, not least because they tend to collide with bridges. To upgrade to international standards and to maintain competitiveness, it is necessary to prevent containers from colliding with bridges on the way north, which is an upgrade to stay in the same place.
It is interesting to reflect on a debate that I obtained 11 or 12 years ago on the future of Southampton port. I speculated about the level of container traffic that would be required in future for UK ports, and the size of container vessels that would come to the port. I talked then about the prospect of vessels of perhaps 8,000 to 10,000 containers coming into the port, and the necessity of considering how we would deal with larger vessels coming in. Now, Southampton’s main customers are talking about shortly bringing in not 8,000-container vessels, not 4,000-container vessels, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) mentioned and which was the standard a few years ago, but 13,000-container vessels. If our ports in general cannot take those vessels, that will be detrimental to Britain’s national strategic port planning, not just to Southampton or any other specific port.
As my right hon. Friend said, the issue is not just that container-vessel traffic is distributed around the UK; ports across the channel are able and waiting to take traffic that comes up through the channel to container ports. If those vessels turn right because they cannot turn left to the UK because of their size, containers will be trans-shipped from the continent to the UK at a cost of £100 per container over and above what happens at present when they arrive in the UK. Yes, we would receive our containers, and yes, business might proceed as usual, but at a considerable cost to the UK economy and considerable detriment to our strategic port planning.
It is essential that ports such as Southampton address the issues, and Southampton has done precisely that in its proposed £150 million investment in its container terminal, not a new container terminal, but an upgraded one. Ships already come into the port, and the £150 million is for dredging and upgrading the facilities to ensure that new, larger vessels can come into Southampton and be dealt with.
As my right hon. Friend said, not only has Southampton addressed the issue, but it thought that it had introduced its proposals in good time a few years ago. It is a sad record that the Marine Management Organisation has been less than fully adequate in dealing with the challenge of that proposal. It had to re-issue the consultation; it apparently retreated in the face of judicial review when permission had been given; and more recently it has cast around to see whether it has the power to resist further judicial review and challenge of its inherited powers from the Board of Trade in terms of permissions. Southampton made its proposals not just in good time, but in very good time. However, it is faced with the prospect that, if matters do not now go absolutely right—among other things, the salmon run up the River Test is an issue—it will lose its very last window to put that vital upgrade in place to cope with future business at the port.
Why has that judicial review come forward, and why has the Marine Management Organisation, apparently petrified about the possibility of further judicial review, reviewed its powers accordingly? Is it because local amenity groups in Southampton are up in arms? Is it because the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds is worried about the effect on birds? Is it because English Heritage is worried about the effect on the Solent? Is it because Natural England is worried about the natural environment around Southampton? No. None of those organisations has ever objected to the proposal, and none has ever tried to stop it. All agree that the arrangements are satisfactory. Indeed, I understand that no one in the Southampton area has ever objected to the proposal. Nor should they, because the proposal is to upgrade an existing container terminal to bring it up to date with what is required for the port. That is all.
It is astonishing to hear that an organisation from its vantage point 200 miles away has introduced judicial review of the upgrade’s details into the proceedings. It might be said that that organisation wants a level playing field. That appears to be more of a cover than an up-front argument, and it does not require an enormous amount of brainpower to consider what might happen if the port of Southampton were made to go backwards rather than forwards. That is what happens with port management; ports either lose trade or they gain it.
UK trade can be obtained for everyone; it is not a zero-sum game. It is not, however, difficult to conclude that Hutchison Ports believes that delaying or scuppering Southampton’s plans to upgrade its facilities, thereby making it unable to accept larger ships, would directly benefit Felixstowe. A judicial review is a fairly small investment—perhaps £100,000—for what is potentially a large gain. I caution, however, that such a move does not necessarily mean that more traffic will go to Felixstowe. It may not end up in the UK at all, and even if some of it did, in terms of UK plc it is equivalent to one car manufacturer seeking to sabotage another’s production line in the hope that the public will buy its cars, even if some members of the public then buy imported cars. That is the sort of action we are contemplating, and if that is the motivation behind the judicial review, I deplore the fact that it has been requested.
I have reflected on the importance of the port of Southampton to UK plc, and feel that any attempt to obtain such a review should be resisted. We need the ports of Southampton, Felixstowe, Liverpool, Hull, Portishead, Thamesport and others because, as we will discuss tomorrow, they will play a vital role in planning the UK’s future port capacity. The development of the port of Southampton is not only about Southampton but about UK plc making its way and dealing with imports and exports from and to the world. If Southampton fails to get its upgrade as a result of backstairs dealing and, quite frankly, poor service by the body that is required to decide on such applications, that will be of detriment not only to Southampton but to the UK as a whole.
Dr Thérèse Coffey
The hon. Gentleman makes the case proudly for Southampton port, as did his right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham). It is a bit of a shame, however, to start impugning commercial decisions. We as parliamentarians want companies to be treated consistently by Government agencies, and in the example we are discussing consistency was not applied. The MMO has ended up paying the costs of the judicial review because it failed to apply the law as it should have done.
Dr Whitehead
There is some force in what hon. Lady says. It is a shame, however, that we have to think about the possible motivations behind those who apply for a judicial review. From my vantage point, the conclusion that the prime motivation behind this judicial review did not involve a concern for level playing fields is almost inescapable. Level playing fields should exist for everybody, but someone feeling that they were not applied in their particular circumstances does not warrant an attempt to upset the playing fields for everybody in the country. I hope that we will hear no more about the judicial review, and that mature consideration of what is best for all, including the ports of Felixstowe, Southampton and the others that I mentioned, will prevail.
I hope that this debate, and the efforts made by many of my colleagues from across the south to assist Southampton’s progress with its application, will mean that at this final stage, the MMO ensures that the process proceeds as quickly as possible, and that those involved with UK ports consider what is best for all our ports, rather than individual interests. If that is a result of today’s debate, which I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen on obtaining, it will have been a prize worth fighting for.
Mr James Gray (in the Chair)
Order. I intend to call the first Front-Bench speaker at 10.40 am. According to my amateur arithmetic, that leaves about five minutes per speaker. Perhaps as a courtesy to one another, hon. Members will try and curtail their remarks as much as possible.
Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)
I congratulate the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) on securing this debate at such a critical juncture. The strong attendance by MPs from across political parties and the south of England is testimony to the urgency with which we must address the future of Southampton port. It is an issue of great consequence, not only to Southampton, but to the economic future of the region and the success of UK plc.
I do not intend to repeat the difficulties that have plagued attempts by the port of Southampton to develop container capacity since 2007—the right hon. Gentleman has already eloquently outlined the tortuous tale of mishaps and deliberate obstructions. I wish only to underline the immense frustration that it has taken more than four years to reach this unsatisfactory juncture. After more than four years of mistakes by the relevant authorities and meddling by a commercial rival, Associated British Ports still does not have permission to develop capacity at the port. It is right to look to the future, but we must be mindful of past delays that must seem utterly baffling to most people. ABP’s commitment to developing the port of Southampton should be a shining example of private investment fuelling economic growth, trade and jobs.
The port of Southampton is one of the region’s economic powerhouses, and as the MP for Gosport, which is just down the road, I know how vital it is for my constituents not only because of the employment that it provides, but because one job at the port generates four or five further jobs. The proposed development of capacity for container ships should by now have cemented the port’s position in European-Asian trade, secured jobs and bolstered the economic might of the UK. It is vital to stress that all those things can be achieved by private investment of well over £100 million, and there is no need for Government support.
If the MMO fails to act decisively, or if commercial rival Hutchison Ports again seeks legal obstructions, there is a real possibility that the international success of Southampton port will be undermined and up to 2,000 jobs put at risk. I have spoken in the Chamber previously about the pockets of deprivation that are found on the south coast, and we cannot afford to put those jobs at risk.
As the hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) pointed out, a new generation of container ships is on the horizon. If Southampton is not allowed to act within the coming months, those ships might well pass it by. I therefore wish to reiterate calls for the MMO to act with speed and precision at the end of the consultation and for Minsters to ensure that it has the resources and expertise to do so. The Government are committed to securing growth and jobs through private investment and we must not—I hate to use this pun—miss the boat in Southampton.
Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)
I congratulate my neighbour, the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham), on securing this important debate, and on his determination to make this a cross-party initiative to highlight the issues currently faced by the port of Southampton. As we have heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage) and the hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead), the port is a significant driver of economic prosperity in the wider region and the country and provides employment both directly and indirectly. The port of Southampton is the main access and departure point in the UK for a wide variety of products. To give one example from my constituency, Ford makes the much-loved Transit vans at Swaythling, 50% of which leave the country via Southampton port. In addition, given that Southampton is the fourth largest port for the import of cars, it is no surprise that many of the Fords that we see on the roads today have accessed the country via that city.
I welcome the “National Policy Statement for Ports”, which has a clear focus on integrated transport networks. We have heard about the importance of altering the rail network, so that larger containers can get through the tunnel underneath Southampton. The rail lines have been lowered and the height of the tunnel raised. However, that £60 million investment might not reach its full potential if those containers cannot access the port of Southampton and end up being transported from the continent. Work is ongoing in my constituency to ensure that the diversionary line is also improved—to raise the road bridges—so that the port can achieve its aim of getting 40% of the freight from the port travelling by rail, which is a far more environmentally sustainable route.
The investment might not achieve its maximum potential, however, if the port of Southampton is not allowed to develop and thrive in a very competitive climate. It is the second busiest deep-water port in the UK and cannot afford to stand still if it is to retain that position, yet as we have heard time and again, it has been forced to tread water because of the inefficiency of the Marine Management Organisation, what I regard as unacceptable objections from rival commercial operators and a delayed process that has seen the likely timetable pushed back and back.
I will not rehearse all the reasons behind the delay, but, as the Member for Romsey and Southampton North, I should like to focus on something that is of particular interest and concern in my constituency. I am also a member of the Select Committee on Environmental Audit. People might therefore expect me to be conscious of the potential environmental impact of the port’s proposal to deepen berths and introduce a new piled quay. Concerns have been raised, including about the migratory salmon that pass through Southampton water. However, the environmental impact assessments have been done and redone. They have been enhanced and more information provided. Despite that, there has been stunningly little progress, and there is a very limited time window for the piling of the new quay. Given the potential impact on migratory salmon, that can be done only between mid-September and March, so a scheme first mooted back in 2008 has missed that window time and again. If it does not get the go-ahead very soon, the next window, between September 2012 and March 2013, will also be missed.
I do not dismiss the importance of the salmon—far from it. Two of the pre-eminent chalk rivers in the country—indeed, the world—run through my constituency at various points. There is, I concede, a very small stretch of the River Itchen, but much of the River Test runs the length of my constituency. One of my constituents proudly boasts of having caught a salmon on the Test every year for the past 50 years. Those salmon are few and far between, and I am most anxious that their migration should not be disturbed, but there is no reason why the development should be held up by them. It is notable that the environmental objections have come not from the fishermen on the River Test, but from a rival port operator.
As I said, I will not rehearse all the reasons for the delay. The right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen took us through a comprehensive timetable. Suffice it to say that the hold-up is putting expansion plans at risk and, in so doing, threatening local jobs, regional economic prosperity and, importantly, private investment in a vital facility. I will not dwell on private investment and the questions about the Liverpool cruise terminal, but it is worth mentioning that in the dealings with the MMO and waiting for permission to be granted, as with the Liverpool cruise terminal, all that Southampton is asking for is a level playing field—I could not work out whether there was an analogy involving water, but I do not think so.
This is a very difficult week for the cruise industry, and our thoughts should be with the victims of the dreadful accident off the coast of Italy. It is important that we get behind that industry. We sincerely hope that it recovers, because it is very important to the port of Southampton. Above all else, we urge the Minister to ensure that, at a time when the cruise industry needs some help and support, we have some clear answers on the question whether public money should be used to subsidise the industry.
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
This is the first time I have had the pleasure of participating in a Westminster Hall debate under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I congratulate you on that, just as I congratulate the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) on securing this important debate.
So far, we have seen an interesting division of labour. The right hon. Gentleman concentrated in great detail, as he had to do, on the process of the application. My hon. Friends the Members for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner) and for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage) concentrated to a considerable extent on the importance of the port of Southampton to the wider region. The hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) and my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) emphasised the magnitude of the task of accommodating container ships that can carry as many as 13,000 units and of transporting those units, when offloaded, to the hinterland within our country.
My role, therefore, towards the end of the debate is to try to show why this issue—or, not to overstate the case, this dispute—is different from other disputes that have taken place in the past and particularly the dispute over the plans that Associated British Ports had for many years, and has not entirely abandoned, to build a huge container port at Dibden bay in my constituency, on the opposite side of Southampton water to the existing container terminal. Hon. Members from that part of the country will be well aware that there was a six-year campaign to resist the Dibden bay port development, culminating in a year-long planning inquiry, which finally decided to recommend—the Government of the day, to their credit, accepted this—that that development should not go ahead.
There is a complete difference between the situation in which we were fighting against the Dibden bay development, and the obstructiveness that has confronted ABP over the current development, which entirely conforms to what we said at the time. That is that the container terminal in Southampton, run by ABP, had the potential to be expanded, to have its capacity increased and to grow as the size and volume of container traffic continues to grow.
At the time of the earlier dispute, ranged against ABP were not just the MP for New Forest East, which is entirely to be expected, given an MP’s responsibility to his constituents, but all sorts of national, environmentally concerned bodies: Natural England or whatever it was called at the time, the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds—you name it; they were against it. Where is that cacophony of objection to the development of berths 101 and 102? Is it being suggested that great harm will be done to the natural environment or the habitat? As my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North emphasised, the main concern is about migratory salmon. That is not to do with the development having a destructive effect: it is simply a question of timing the development so that the salmon can migrate in the normal way, and the piling and the preparation of the quay wall can go ahead.
There is nothing like the same level, quality, type or scale of objection on environmental grounds to what is proposed. On the contrary, the port is doing what the port, with the greatest respect—I say that to the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen—should have done at the time when the extremely destructive proposal to build at Dibden bay was originally made. The port proposes to take its existing footprint, to modernise it, to do a modest dredge and to enable the larger generation of ships to dock there safely and securely. That is precisely the way in which an important port should be able to increase its capacity—without doing any harm whatever to the natural environment and without causing much concern, if any, to the people who live in the area.
The difference is, therefore, fuelled not by environmental objections but by commercial ones. ABP could similarly be accused of applying double standards regarding its commercial objections to cruises being allowed to start and end at the cruise terminal in Liverpool. However, there is no real comparison, because the objections from the city of Southampton and ABP to the proposals for Liverpool—to their credit, Liverpool MPs have been present in force today to defend the interests of their city—have been based on the fact not that there would be competition between Liverpool and Southampton for the cruise liner trade, but that Liverpool received £20 million of public money to develop a cruise terminal as a port of call, not a port at which cruises should start and end. That money was given specifically on the condition that the cruise terminal would be restricted to that purpose, and within a year of the cruise terminal’s being finished, the request was being made to tear up the condition without repaying all the money. I will not dwell on that, because we know that the argument is about to be settled one way or another, although we do not know which way.
Mr Watts
Was there not a great deal of public investment in Southampton before denationalisation? The port has enjoyed a lot of public investment over many years, so is it not a bit ironic that Members are complaining about public investment when Southampton has had so much?
Dr Lewis
That is a neat argument, but it would have a little more force if the port of Liverpool were not owned privately by Peel Ports. One should not compare what happened to Southampton before it was privately owned with what is happening to Liverpool when it is privately owned. It was a nice try, however, and I give the hon. Gentleman full credit for it.
In the spirit of consensus we have in the debate, I must acknowledge—I think ABP acknowledges this as well—that Hutchison Ports has had a bad deal. More than one local Member has ably made the point that Hutchison Ports feels that it was treated unfairly in comparison with other ports, so it has been making a point of saying that if it does not get fair treatment, it will put a spanner in the works so that other people do not get fair treatment either. I had some friendly and helpful interactions with Hutchison Ports at the time of the Dibden bay dispute, and I say to the company that it has made its point effectively, but it would be carrying things too far to try to make it again.
Time is of the essence, not only in this debate but in terms of the need to make a decision. I conclude by saying that if the debate has focused Ministers’ attention—and, through Ministers, the attention of the Marine Management Organisation—on the need to conclude this over-long process as soon as possible, it will have achieved its objective.
Mr James Gray (in the Chair)
Order. Before I call the hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), whom I know represents the port of Felixstowe, I remind her that the debate is about the future of the port of Southampton, to which she must confine her remarks.
Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Gray. I intend to refer to many of the comments that have been made about the actions of Hutchison Ports, rather than to proselytise about the benefits of Felixstowe, which are already well known in the House.
Associated British Ports is an investor in the Suffolk ports of Ipswich and Lowestoft, as well as in Southampton. I want to reinforce the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) made about consistency and a level playing field. I commend the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) on his advocacy of the port of Southampton. As I mentioned in my intervention, companies that we represent are entitled to expect that Government agencies act within the law, and when they do not, it is reasonable to challenge them. The MMO suffers from the sins of its predecessor, but that happens with Governments, agencies and companies, which have to deal with the hand they are given. The MMO fell down initially in accepting the decision and subsequently admitted that it had acted unlawfully, so the order was granted.
The hon. Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) pointed out some of the challenges of onshore distribution using the rail and road networks, which have received a lot of investment, as my hon. Friend the Member for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) alluded to. The right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen was not able to answer for the fact that ABP did not consult organisations such as Network Rail, the Department for Transport rail department or the Highways Agency when considering the land-side environmental impact assessment of its application. I am sympathetic to ABP’s point that it relied on the advice of the Marine and Fisheries Agency at the time, and hindsight is a great teacher. I am surprised that ABP relied on a fisheries agency to provide full planning advice and did not use its own advice to ensure that it had covered every aspect of the planning application, because it is experienced in doing such things.
My hon. Friend the Member for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage) mentioned meddling by a commercial rival. Let me provide a parallel example of what might happen if the law on regulation was not applied consistently. If the Football League brought in transfer conditions that Southampton football club had to apply, but Portsmouth was allowed not to follow the regulations, I can imagine the rows between Southampton and Portsmouth supporters. Members of Parliament would be equally frustrated about the lack of even-handedness. Although I appreciate that the emotions involved in football do not stretch to the technicalities of a planning application, the same issues are involved. Commercially, we want a consistent response from Government agencies.
Caroline Dinenage
I am in favour of any positive discrimination that involves Portsmouth football club. We are talking about the economic benefit to the whole of the UK. Leaving aside any commercial rivalries or geographical disputes, we have to look at jobs, economic prosperity and income, which are important for the future of UK plc.
Dr Coffey
I understand that perspective entirely, and I will address it briefly.
My hon. Friend the Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) has been inconsistent in his argument. He was very generous to Hutchison, especially regarding its advice on Dibden bay, which I remember well because I lived in Hampshire at the time. Again, the argument is about consistency, and ABP and Hutchison are united in saying that nobody objects to Liverpool’s having a cruise terminal, but it should be on equal terms. Both port operators share that position. I do not, therefore, accept that we are talking about different things, although the joy of being a politician is that our greatest competence has to be dealing with paradox.
Mr Denham
I realise that time is short, but the point about the legal challenge is that no one is suggesting that Hutchison has suffered massive commercial damage because the MMO got its procedures wrong. If the port of Felixstowe faced closure because of bungling by the MMO, I would understand the hon. Lady’s point. However, she is justifying doing enormous commercial damage to the port of Southampton and the United Kingdom because something has been found not to have been done properly, and the action is totally out of proportion to any damage that Felixstowe has suffered. That is really the objection of Members from Hampshire on both sides of the Chamber.
Dr Coffey
I understand that perspective entirely. I am not suggesting that I would encourage Hutchison to continue to apply for judicial review after judicial review.
I have no objection to Southampton being able to accommodate the largest boats, just as Felixstowe can now, but it is critical to encourage the MMO to act swiftly and properly. At the end of the day, it is about ensuring that our civil service agencies can tackle things, and as was said earlier there is the question of making sure that there are resources. It is about focusing on what matters for the UK economy. If the agency had pulled its finger out and made sure that ABP had done its assessment properly in the first place, we might not be in this mess. I would encourage the agency to devote its resources to the issue in question, rather than devoting any further resources to marine conservation zones; that would have an impact on ports around the country, including Southampton and Felixstowe. It should make sure it is business-friendly, pull its finger out and ensure that the law is applied consistently.
Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to see you in the Chair this morning, Mr Gray. I am delighted to be here for the debate, and congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) on securing it, ably supported by my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) and colleagues on the other side of the House. Both my right hon. Friend and my hon. Friend are former distinguished Ministers—indeed my right hon. Friend was a Secretary of State—and they both have considerable experience in the matters under debate. The speeches of the hon. Members for Isle of Wight (Mr Turner), for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage), for Romsey and Southampton North (Caroline Nokes) and for New Forest East (Dr Lewis) supported the case being put to the Minister, and the only dissenting voice—and even then, only slightly dissenting—was that of the hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), who used a football analogy to outline her slight difficulty. As a West Ham supporter, in a debate on Southampton, I was not sure how I would get into the debate the fact that those teams are joint top of the championship, but the hon. Lady has provided me with the opportunity.
The role of a shadow Minister is sometimes puzzling, especially for someone who has been a Minister—not making the decisions and not having the intensity of programme or the diary pressures that the Minister experiences. As Her Majesty’s Opposition, our job is to challenge, which does not, of course, always mean opposing, especially when some of the things that the Government will eventually decide to do were left to them by us. I know that the Minister will refer to that fact in due course. I think that he was ably assisted by my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen, who put me somewhat in the frame for this situation. In debates such as this, the local knowledge of my right hon. Friend and other colleagues is so comprehensive that there is little for me to add. I will therefore be brief, and I am sure that the Minister will use the time to respond to specific points that have been raised in this important debate.
I am sure that we will all agree on one point: shipping and the ports industry are great assets to our country, doing sterling work efficiently, well and almost invisibly. It is only when there is a tragedy, such as the one this week in Italy, that shipping ever makes the national headlines. However, we know how important shipping is to the UK economy in all its aspects, and many hon. Members have made the case for that view this morning.
I should be grateful if the Minister reassured us about the general working of the MMO overall, about issues of implementation, and, in passing, about the impact on other ports besides Southampton—especially London. However, we are here to deal with specific questions raised by right hon. and hon. Members during the debate. My right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen raised with us serious questions about the procedures adopted by the MMO—the errors, failures and delays, compounded by legal challenges from commercial competitors. My hon. Friend the Member for St Helens North (Mr Watts) raised the broader question of the planning process for major developments, and in passing I would say that it was a mistake by the Government that the coalition decided to abolish the Infrastructure Planning Commission, which was specifically designed to deal with the problems of unnecessary delays to national infrastructure projects.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen outlined in some detail why time is so critical in the present instance, and what he said was reinforced by hon. Members across the Chamber. Time will tell whether it will be possible for private sector finance to be invested, as many hon. Members discussed. We have heard that the issue is about ABP versus Hutchison and Southampton versus Felixtowe; we have also heard that it is about Southampton versus Liverpool. My right hon. Friend said that Southampton wants a level playing field on the cruise terminal question, and the Opposition support that view. I know from my hon. Friends that Liverpool is offering to pay back grant that it received. We welcome that. That issue is secondary to today’s debate, but none the less it is with the Minister and perhaps he will tell us when and how it will be resolved.
As an aside, I will mention that, like many other colleagues, I have used the port of Southampton on several occasions. Most recently I was on the Cunard liner the Queen Mary 2, coming back from New York, and I will be sailing with Fred Olson from Southampton to Liverpool and Belfast on a Titanic mini-cruise in April.
As has been mentioned, the conclusion of the important ports policy statement debate will be tomorrow, in the Chamber. The Minister is held in high regard by the shipping industry and he knows that the Government need to get behind British shipping rather than in its way, and to try to remove obstacles placed in its way by others. I know that he wants to be helpful, so I look forward to his response, in the hope that he will offer clear reassurance to hon. Members and to the port of Southampton, about bringing the issue of timing and the MMO to a speedy conclusion.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mike Penning)
I am honoured to be serving under your chairmanship this morning, Mr Gray. It has been an interesting debate, but perhaps I may seek your indulgence, as this is the first opportunity that I have had to address the House following the disaster in Italy. Our thoughts and prayers are with the families who have lost loved ones or been injured over the weekend. I asked Sir Alan Massey, the chief executive of the Maritime and Coastguard Agency, to contact his counterparts in Italy and offer any assistance that they would need with the rescue, investigation or contamination. Perhaps they may need some skimmers from us. I have also written to my counterpart in Italy with similar remarks. On that point, I shall be on a cruise liner as soon as I can—not crossing the Atlantic, like the shadow Minister, but to stand steadfastly by the cruise industry and show that the disaster, although significant, should not reflect on the industry as a whole. I expect that nearly 2 million British people will go on a cruise by 2014-15, and I hope that that figure will be exceeded. I wish every success to all ports involved in the cruise industry.
Interesting comments have been made about the link between the position of Southampton and that of Liverpool. I am the decision-making Minister and will be considering the matter carefully and making a decision soon. If Liverpool had offered to pay back all the grant, as the hon. Member for Poplar and Limehouse (Jim Fitzpatrick) said, we would not be discussing anything here today. The decision would have been made by the previous Administration, and that would have been enough. Liverpool has not made the offer that the hon. Gentleman described, but it has made an offer, which I am considering. However, even if I make a decision, there is an issue to do with the funding that came from Europe, and state aid clearance will be required by the European Commission. However, I will look at the matter. I want a level playing field and growth in the cruise liner industry. I want Liverpool to be a success. I have been to Liverpool—twice now—and have worked with the city council and with Peel Ports. One of the most exciting things that Peel has done is to start to use the capacity of the Manchester ship canal in a way that has not happened for nearly 100 years. There is a desperate need for that, and I congratulate Peel.
The port that I have visited more than any other in the 18 months when I have had the honour and privilege to be the shipping and ports Minister is Southampton. There are many reasons for that, but not the least of those is its significance within the ports industry. That cannot be looked at in isolation. The issue has to do with a commitment of £150 million of private funding for increased capacity of 201 and 202 berths. Anyone who has heard me speak as shipping Minister in the past 18 months will have heard me go on and on about the importance of ports to an island nation. Frankly, successive Governments have not taken ports seriously enough. With the dramatic change that the right hon. Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr Denham) alluded to in the size of bulk ships, which we could not have envisaged a few years ago, we need to make sure that our nation is not left behind, and that we have the necessary capacity in the UK. The investment by Hutchison at Felixtowe, which as hon. Members can imagine I have also visited, was significant in that context. I pay tribute also to DP World for sticking with it and going ahead with a £1.5 billion investment—36,000 jobs—in London Gateway. That will create competition for Felixstowe, which is good because competition within the ports industry is important. As I have said many times before, it is about not just those very big ports, but the provision of myriad services through the ports.
What is proposed in Southampton is not the largest deepwater port. Some of the bigger ships that are now being built will not be able to get in there. We are talking about a 16-metre depth when a 17-metre-plus at Gateway is under discussion and Felixstowe already has 17 metres. None the less, what this will do is allow the capacity to be spread around the country. Anyone listening to me will probably think that I am not supportive of Southampton having this port facility; well, categorically, I am. I want others to have it as well. Planning permission for deepwater ports already exists in Tees, Bristol and Liverpool. They will not be the largest ports, but they will take deepwater capacity ships—certainly to the size of 13,000 or 14,000 20-foot equivalent units.
As we look at this matter, we must ensure that the environment is protected. My hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), who is no longer in his seat, referred to the habitats directive. That directive has become a real issue; it was designed to do one thing and has become a hindrance in other areas. A review is currently under way, which will report in March. It will try to address the balance between protecting the environment and allowing this country to grow and businesses, especially ports, to carry out their work.
Members will hear the frustration in my voice when I say that much has been said about the MMO. The shadow Minister will not like what I am going to say, but the MMO was a creation of the previous Government. It did not come into force until April 2010. All the earlier action was carried out by the Marine and Fisheries Agency. Let me say—I will not beat about the bush here—there was a big cock-up, which is why the judicial review said that maladministration had taken place and that the agency had not done what it should have done.
Can I criticise Southampton for looking at what was given to it as a requirement and saying, “The legal body is telling us to do this, this and this”, and then doing it? I have always been involved in small businesses, and issues relating to the highways and to rail would have been addressed within their own business plans. If they had been asked to do something, I am sure that it would have happened. There is no doubt about that. In this case though, that did not apply. One of the things that Hutchison is concerned about is that it was certainly asked to do such things when it was expanding the port at Felixstowe which I visited at the start of my tenure as Minister. One of the delays to do with Gateway’s decision was with DP World. It was asked to do significant things relating to rail and road infrastructure. Negotiations, particularly over junction 30, went on right up to the last minute. Something that Hutchison has raised with me is whether the subsidies are there or not.
As we go forward, we can look at what the problems have been over the past few months. As I have said before with a degree of frustration in my voice, I do not have control over the MMO. I have control over the national ports policy, which we will debate tomorrow. Members will hear me talk about the renaissance in coastal shipping and in ports, both small and large. I can take so much freight off our roads. So many road miles can be taken away if we utilised our ports.
Mr Watts
I understand the political banter and why the Minister has talked about things happening on the previous Government’s watch and not his own. I think that that is a valid point. What action has been taken to deal with the officials who made that “cock-up”? This is what I find all the time. When one Government leaves office, the other one blames them. On this occasion, the problem is down to civil servants and individuals. Are they still working? Has action been taken to ensure that they do not make the same mistakes again?
Mike Penning
I do not know how Hansard is going to get the word “cock-up” in, but there it is again.
The MMO is a quango with almost no ministerial control whatever. Many of the civil servants in the previous incarnation did not transfer to the new organisation because it was reincarnated in Newcastle. Much of the personal knowledge about this particular case was not transferred. Once we have got through this—I must ensure that I do not interfere with any judicial process—we will be looking very closely at the matter. Remember this is a Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and Department for Transport issue. Do not get me wrong, the Minister would never have seen this; it would never have got to him. This was below the radar level. None the less, it is quite simple to say, “You looked at these ports and you asked for this, this and this. When you came to this port, you didn’t ask for something that you have asked for at nearly every other port that I have looked at.” We will address this matter.
I want to look at how the MMO works. As the Minister standing before the Chamber, listening to colleagues and going on visits, it is enormously frustrating having very little control over things such as the harbour revision order. Even if the whole local community and the MP is against that order, all I can do is advise the MMO; I cannot actually instruct it.
Mr Denham
I am sure that there are many bigger issues to do with the MMO that need to be dealt with; the Minister is right. None the less, in five weeks’ time, the consultation will end. The MMO has to deal properly with that consultation so that it is free of legal challenge, but it must do it in an extremely timely manner. One of the reasons for having the debate with this Minister and this Department is that it is this Department that understands how important the issue is. I am not convinced that DEFRA Ministers do, and I am not sure that the MMO does. What we are asking the Minister today is for him and his Secretary of State to say to DEFRA, “In five weeks’ time, if you don’t have the right people in place with the right expertise, you will not be able to handle this in a satisfactory and timely manner.”
Mike Penning
I thank the right hon. Gentleman and he has probably taken the first point that I was going to make. I can do three things today. First, I can speak to my counterparts in DEFRA and tell them how seriously we consider this matter. If the MMO does not have the expertise, capacity and confidence to make a watertight decision, we will offer it the officials to help it to do that. It is independent of the Department for Transport, but I am sure that we can provide secondments if we need to.
The second thing we can do, which was mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey), is to say to Hutchison, “You have made your point.” There is no benefit in delaying this matter with a further challenge. As long as Associated British Ports does what it is asked to do with regards to the MMO and it supports the MMO decision, then that should be it. I cannot make it do that, but I am a constructive friend. I am sure that there are people who will be listening carefully to what the Minister has said about this delay. I am a friend of all the ports. I want competition, but this is not looking particularly good any more with regard to Hutchison. I fully understand its position. The law was not adhered to and maladministration took place, which is why the judicial review was minded to go down such an avenue. For lots of reasons, not least those relating to UK plc, jobs, infrastructure and the people of the Southampton area, we need to move on. Capacity ports need to be available. When outside investment considers UK plc, they may say, “We would like to invest there”. However, their Google alert or some other agency may then say, “Hold up a second, if you try to get consent down there, these are the sorts of problems you will get.”
I want Bristol to go ahead with its decisions. I want Liverpool, separate from the cruise business, to be able to go ahead with the deepwater port. I want Tees to go ahead as well. The Tyne is another one that should go ahead despite the issues relating to contamination. I was there only the other day. If all those ports go ahead, it will create the capacity that we need to get freight off the roads. As our economy grows, and it will grow, we need to ensure that we can be in the marketplace. We need to be a hub for these huge containers. Let us not underestimate the sheer size of the task that we are talking about. I stood at Felixstowe on the deck of one of the larger Maersk ships and looked down on the cranes that were trying to load her. Those cranes have now been replaced by even larger ones, which the Secretary of State must have seen when she was there the other day.
We need to be in-step with a market that is world led. We have been world leaders in this field for years and years. We stepped back when previous Governments did not take ports and shipping seriously. I do take them seriously and I hope that this plan goes ahead for Southampton.
Tennis
(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op)
I am delighted to be here and to see the Sports Minister, who will respond. I am pleased to have secured the debate and to welcome my hon. Friends—we are all friends when it comes to tennis. I am secretary of the all-party group on tennis, or as it is more commonly known, the Lords and Commons tennis club. The most enjoyable part of holding that position is getting to play.
Tennis is a sport open to all. It is played by children, as soon as they can hold the racket, through to the older generation to maintain agility, balance, flexibility and strength. It can be enjoyed by two people competing for victory or by groups and families for leisure. It is flexible and fun. Unfortunately, despite all those positive attributes, the country suffers from low participation. Sport England’s Active People survey shows that tennis participation has fallen to 402,000 regular players—way short of the 550,000 target for September 2011. Shockingly, the number of tennis courts has declined in the past 10 years from 33,000 to only 10,000.
Research shows that the public are keen to play more tennis. According to a ComRes survey carried out on behalf of Tennis for Free in September 2011, nearly half the people surveyed would be more likely to play tennis if facilities were free to use. It also found that 69% of people think that local facilities should be free and a massive 84% believe that they need to be more accessible. The serious lack of interest in the grass-roots level is a missed opportunity. Getting more Britons inspired by and involved in sports was a pledge that helped London to secure the 2012 Olympic games, but that cannot happen unless we invest in small organisations that promote grass-roots sports.
Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con)
I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate. Is she aware that Leamington Spa is home to the first lawn tennis club, established in 1872, which was three years before Wimbledon? In the Olympic year, could we not make an effort to ensure that we improve young people’s understanding of the history of tennis, so that the legacy is not concentrated only in London?
Meg Munn
As an MP representing a constituency even further away from London than the hon. Gentleman’s, I am obviously keen for the legacy of the games to be felt throughout the country. I have spent time in Leamington Spa, but I was unaware of its history, so I am delighted to have been educated. Let us get kids out playing and then teach them the history, but I welcome his intervention.
In 1997, when the Labour Government came to power, school sports were poorly funded and communities relied on badly funded local authority provision and voluntary clubs. The Labour Government set out to create a proper structure to encourage greater participation, which included the Youth Sport Trust, for schools and youth clubs; Sport England, for community support through national governing bodies; and UK Sport, for elite sport throughout England.
In December 2008, Sport England announced a £480 million investment to provide grass-roots sporting opportunities and a lasting Olympic legacy of 1 million people playing more sport. It awarded sports funding based on their expected ability to increase the number of people playing sport and to ensure that young, talented players could be identified and supported to develop their skills.
Through the four-year whole sport plan, tennis received a block grant of nearly £27 million for 2009-13—the fourth largest grant given to any sport—from Sport England. That money is channelled through the sport’s national governing body, the Lawn Tennis Association. It was originally built on a club structure, but there has been a shift to include more local authority-run parks and school sites. Almost 200 park sites, which offer affordable tennis, are accredited as beacons and the LTA also invested £200,000 in revenue funding last year to support free and affordable activities. Sport England targets tennis funding at three areas, for which it uses the terms: grow, sustain and excel. For those of us who do not like such short descriptions, they mean increasing the number of people playing tennis, sustaining their number through measuring existing participants’ satisfaction and helping young, talented players to progress and excel.
Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)
At Glenburn sports college in Skelmersdale, the LTA has invested in developing high-quality tennis courts. It is a new town that has existed for only 50 years, so it does not have the great history that the hon. Member for Warwick and Leamington (Chris White) mentioned and had no tennis provision in a town of 40,000 people. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is important to ensure that the opportunity to get involved in tennis should be widely accessible, especially in communities such as Skelmersdale that did not have a tennis court? You never know, we may discover stars.
Meg Munn
I am delighted to predict that a future Wimbledon champion will no doubt come from my hon. Friend’s constituency. She makes the point extremely well—that is exactly what needs to happen.
The LTA has undertaken significant work in the past 18 months to accelerate growth in participation in park tennis sites, schools and through its “allplay” campaign, launched in summer 2011 to help more people play tennis. The campaign includes a free website to help people to find someone to play against, a local place to play tennis, of which there are about 20,000, and coaching to help people to improve. For future projects, the LTA has invested or committed £19.9 million in total to 159 projects or facilities since 2008. Over £11 million of that comes from Sport England’s whole sport plan funding, with the LTA funding the remainder directly. That will result in 32 new indoor courts, 109 new outdoor courts, nearly 300 resurfaced or reconstructed courts and 294 courts floodlit across England. The LTA investment rightly reaches beyond traditional clubs— £7.9 million has gone into community facilities, such as parks and education sites, and no doubt that includes my hon. Friend’s constituency.
Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)
I am sure that my hon. Friend will join me in commending the LTA for investing in one of the most deprived wards in my constituency with a fantastic indoor tennis court at Churchill community college—a very visible site that has been well used by the community. It was done in partnership with the council and is a fantastic example of an investment that will make a difference to the lives of young people in North Tyneside.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing the debate. Sport is a devolved matter in Northern Ireland, and although we are talking about England, I want to add to the debate an example of what has been done there. The Ulster branch of Tennis Ireland’s initiative over a weekend last summer introduced 508 people to tennis with the support of councils, tennis clubs and private enterprise—Asda’s sporting chance programme sponsored it. That is an example of how, with promotion and encouragement, we can get more people involved and other people to help.
Meg Munn
It is good to hear about that, because we must address the barriers to more people playing tennis.
I am sceptical that the LTA can achieve the surge in participation that we are all talking about and all want. In my experience, lasting involvement is often achieved by local people coming together and deciding to do something, by people getting involved for not just two weeks, during Wimbledon or when something is first there, and doing something that continues and enables people to take up a sport, which, as I said earlier, they can keep on playing well into their 60s, 70s and even 80s. For instance, a group of parents might want to do something for their children, or a group of women might want to get together and get active, while having fun. What prevents people from seeing tennis as the way to do that is the lack of courts and equipment, and probably most difficult to overcome is the sense that tennis is a sport for better-off people, with too many children and adults seeing it as elitist and not for them.
An organisation that has set out to change things is Tennis for Free, which starts from a simple point of view. If children want to play football, they get their ball, find a patch of grass, put down a couple of jumpers and start playing. It costs them nothing. Charging to use tennis courts has helped the decline in participation, by making tennis too expensive for many people to play, and councils need someone collect the money. The result across the country has been poor-quality tennis courts that become underused and fall into disrepair.
Tennis for Free works with schools, tennis clubs and local authorities. It uses public park court facilities to create tennis communities. It provides free equipment and a free two-year coaching programme, run by qualified coaches and available to young people and adults of all ages, standards and abilities.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
I declare an interest as vice-chairman of the all-party group on tennis. I am, however, a very poor player, unlike the hon. Lady, whose skills are renowned throughout the Palace of Westminster.
Mark Pritchard
Indeed. I should like to put on record my thanks to Mr Speaker for his active support of tennis and of Tennis for Free in particular. Given the huge amount of money going into tennis generally, from the Exchequer and the lottery, does the hon. Lady accept that a future Wimbledon champion—junior or senior, male or female—is as likely to come from the Tennis for Free courts as from private courts or those where an entry fee is charged?
Meg Munn
As the hon. Gentleman is probably aware, my view is that talent is certainly likely to be spread equally across the whole population. However, it is not just about getting the person who is going to do well and represent the country, but about getting everyone else involved, too.
With Tennis for Free, we are seeing a way of opening tennis to even more people, by providing free equipment and a free two-year coaching programme and, at the end of the two years, a friends community group is created to provide a free coaching programme with the same inclusive and welcoming ethos. Such community-based techniques have been shown to work. Tennis for Free’s approach offers value for money and is, importantly, sustainable. It has had more than 16,000 attendees at its coaching events over the past year and is now embarking on a programme of renewing and renovating courts. It has also targeted low-income groups, thus ensuring that the schemes are promoted to families in areas of high deprivation, to spread greater provision to where there have traditionally been no tennis courts. My hon. Friend the Member for North Tyneside (Mrs Glindon) described the importance of that.
A vital part of Tennis for Free’s activity is persuading local councils to make access to tennis courts free of charge. That improves value for money, because the maintenance budget is helped by the fact that well-used courts are less likely to become overgrown and vandalised. There are now more than 2,600 free park courts in the UK, up from just 700 in 2005—a real achievement for a small organisation. The approach matches public need. The ComRes survey found that a third of people would be more likely to play tennis if courts were open for longer, were in better condition and offered free coaching. The great thing about the approach is that it is relatively cheap to set up; provided that it is done in partnership, a two-year coaching programme costs about £15,000. Tennis for Free’s success shows us that there is potential in grass-roots activity.
Investment in tennis is crucial. The coalition Government have announced a new youth sport strategy, to invest £1 billion of lottery and Exchequer funding in partnership with Sport England to ensure that more young people regularly play sport and will continue to do so into adult life. The funding is dependent on a performance management regime, whereby national governing bodies must demonstrate local impact to avoid the funds being withdrawn. So far, public funding for tennis has not produced the growth in participation that could have been achieved, but this is our opportunity to get it right, and the 2013-2017 plans for each national governing body are being developed over the next few months.
A vision for developing grass-roots tennis has been set out in the charter for tennis. It includes enabling wider participation, so resources spent on tennis must be focused on grass-roots development. Sport England funding from 2013 should be channelled to organisations dedicated to grass-roots development and allocated on the principles of transparency, accountability and value for money. By concentrating on grass-roots tennis and getting more people playing, we increase the number of people who find it an enjoyable and worthwhile activity in its own right. Will the Minister therefore consider guaranteeing that a proportion of tennis’s future funding goes directly to grass-roots organisations such as Tennis for Free, rather than being channelled through only the national governing body?
The Minister for Sport and the Olympics (Hugh Robertson)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Sheffield, Heeley (Meg Munn) on securing this debate, and I thank Members for their many contributions during her speech. The hon. Lady is absolutely right: tennis is a game enjoyed by many millions of people in this country. Absolutely central to our plans for the Olympics, and beyond, is to get people to focus on tennis for not just two weeks at the end of June and the beginning of July.
We want to ensure that tennis is played by as many people as possible, for as much of the year as possible, and I was very encouraged to see in a recent survey that tennis was highlighted as a sport that many more people wanted to play. Interestingly enough, although everyone concentrates on those at school and in their early 20s, tennis was seen in the survey as an incredibly popular sport among those who want to play it later in life; so although people are rightly enthusiastic about getting more young people playing, it is also important to remember that fact.
I thought I would first quickly give the hon. Lady a bit of background, talk about the opportunity, which she rightly highlighted, offered through the new sport strategy, and then address the issues she raised about Tennis for Free. She is absolutely right that by 2013, Sport England will have invested more than £26 million of public money in the Lawn Tennis Association, much of which is driven by lottery receipts. The hon. Lady mentioned that when she talked about increased investment in sport. Sport now gets 20% of the lottery take, up from 13.7%, and lottery receipts are rising, so more lottery money is available for sport than ever before.
The hon. Lady made her points very fairly and did not line the LTA up directly in the shooting gallery; nor should she—the contributions of many other Members have shown what the organisation has achieved. It is important for a Government, and indeed for Sport England, to have just one point of contact in any sport. When I took over the role of shadow Minister for Sport, someone told me that golf has 19 representative bodies in this country. It is important to have one body in overall charge, and clearly that should be the sport’s national governing body. Whatever the rights and wrongs of this argument, the LTA has, as Members have pointed out, worked hard to bring more tennis into schools through the AEGON partnership and the new allplay scheme it has just launched, and wheelchair tennis is one of the fastest-growing disabled sports in the country. The LTA deserves enormous credit for all that.
The hon. Lady mentioned the youth sport strategy. She is absolutely right—there is nothing party political about it—that lottery funding has injected a considerable amount of cash into sport for the best part of 15 years, which has transformed funding for both Olympic and community sports. To be honest, it is deeply shaming that over those 15 years, the number of people playing sport—the problem is not confined to tennis—has flatlined or gone down. There are a number of reasons for that. First, the target of 1 million was, to say it in the nicest possible way, what a target of 1 million sounds like: plucked off the wall as a nice round number. It was not gained by burrowing deep into sports, finding out what they could deliver and coming to a target.
The second problem is that the measurement is now generally regarded as faulty. Active People uses the measurement of three separate sessions of half an hour’s exercise a week, a direct lift from the old health model. The perfectly sensible idea was to streamline all this, but it is extremely difficult for most people to manage three separate sessions of half an hour’s sport. The problem was brought home to me by England Hockey, which produced the example of a young hockey player, playing in the top levels of the southern leagues, who trained on a Tuesday night and played league hockey on a Saturday, but who failed the Sport England measure because they were not doing three separate sessions of sport.
That problem was compounded by the fact that the survey is collected solely through fixed telephone lines. As hon. Members will know, hardly any young person in this country operates on a fixed telephone line any more; everybody uses mobile communications, social media and the rest. As the Minister, I have suffered the ridiculous situation of calling in sport governing bodies such as the LTA to explain why their figures are falling and being told, “Actually, our figures show that the number of people playing is rising, but the survey is not picking them up.” In my 18 months as Minister, I have found that the single most frustrating thing. Using a survey that measures more accurately what is happening is key.
The third issue involves how sport governing bodies—the LTA is not exempt from this criticism—went into the whole sport plan process. It was a good idea of James Purnell, as Secretary of State, to empower governing bodies to drive up participation, but some saw it as a means to drive the commercial model. They would get more people interested in a sport, and then those people would pay money to watch the pros play. That is different from influencing consumer behaviour and driving the societal change we need if we are to get more people to playing sport.
Meg Munn
I appreciate what the Minister says about the difficulty of counting how many people are playing, but one thing we can count is the number of courts. From my constituency and others, we know that some areas have no courts and that many courts are in disrepair. That is important and must be addressed.
Hugh Robertson
The hon. Lady is absolutely correct, as she has been in much of what she has said. Having given her a bit of background, I will move to the youth sport strategy.
The strategy was announced a week ago. Instead of continuing with the old strategy and its flatlining figures, we will encourage sport governing bodies to concentrate much more effectively and in a more focused way on the 14 to 25 age group, in the hope that if we can get people out of school and into community clubs playing much more sport, there is a much better chance, because sport has been established as part of their daily lives, that they will keep playing later. We will not demand that all sports focus exclusively on that age group, but we definitely want a renewed focus on it.
As part of that, voluntary groups and sports clubs will have the chance to access a £50 million pot to help ensure that the widest range of sporting opportunities are available to that age group. That is exactly the sort of pot that such schemes ought to pitch into. Alongside that sits the 2012 legacy scheme Places People Play, which will provide £135 million in funding, the majority of which will be targeted at small facility improvement through grants of less than £50,000. It strikes me that a great many tennis facilities would benefit from precisely that sort of funding.
I am glad to say that the scheme has proved far more popular than we ever thought. The first round was dramatically oversubscribed. The funding extends right across the piece, from fixing boilers and doing up changing rooms to repairing holes in roofs. Those are the sorts of thing for which small clubs find it difficult to raise money, but they are essential to increasing the number of people playing sport. Sport England will do a series of subsequent rounds of the programme. I encourage everyone here to get their local tennis facilities to apply for the fund. There are two streams. One, at the top, is Iconic Facilities. If Members have a big sports club in their constituency to which a lot needs doing—many of them will have tennis facilities—it can apply for funding. The other stream is Inspired Facilities: a sub-£50,000 pot to cover exactly this issue.
On Tennis for Free, I must be a bit careful. It is absolutely my job as Minister to set the overall strategy and then hold sport governing bodies, in particular, to account for how they spend their money. Over the past year, participation figures for a number of sport governing bodies—I will not name and shame them publicly—have tailed off. In some instances, we have removed funding from bodies that have failed. The new youth sport strategy will give payment by results. If we find that some sports are doing well, they will get more money. Those sports that just continue in the same old way and do not increase numbers will have their funding taken away.
However, it would be going further than a Minister should to delve into a sport and instruct the sport governing body exactly how to allocate its funds. I hold governing bodies to account for what they are doing across the piece, but I do not tell them to fund individual organisations. There is also a secondary point. The part of the whole sport plan into which I suspect Tennis for Free will fall is lottery funding, not Exchequer funding, so it is illegal under additionality rules for me to tell the LTA how to spend its funds. That said, I am keen for the LTA to work much more closely with Tennis for Free, which is an interesting and innovative scheme. I hope, as does the hon. Lady, that it will succeed. Clearly, it must prove that it can, but I suspect it will have an important part to play in the mix for achieving her aims.
The most constructive thing that I can do as a result of this debate is to give the hon. Lady an undertaking that I will write personally to the chief executive of the LTA asking him to meet Tennis for Free to bottom out exactly what can be done and what issues remain, and to write back to me. I will then copy that reply to her, so we can be sure that something will come of this debate.
Hugh Robertson
Absolutely. That is part of the whole sport plan process. My instinct is that that principle is probably there already. The whole sport plan, as it works at the moment, has not changed at all since the last Government were in office. A better way of answering that might simply be to say that sport governing bodies have a fair degree of autonomy to drive up participation in any way they see fit, as long as they get more people playing.
Clearly, it is a new idea. If we are investing public money, either through the lottery fund or the Exchequer, we need to ensure that it gives value for money and works. I encourage Tennis for Free and the LTA to work together more closely. I will broker that meeting and monitor what happens.
Finally, such relationships are important. In some sports, they work well; in others, they work less well, and tennis might be one of them. The important thing is that both sides take an open and constructive approach. I leave the hon. Lady with this thought. It does not help if organisations trying to get funding from sport governing bodies are permanently hammering them in the press. That produces a siege mentality that I suggest might be part of the problem.
Northern Rail Hub
(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. As one of the vice-chairmen of the all-party group on rail in the north, I am delighted to have secured this debate on an issue that is well and truly at the top of our agenda. It is great to see present so many colleagues from the all-party group and from the north of the country who are passionate about rail investment in their constituencies and across the north.
My Colne Valley constituency has two rail lines running through it. The Leeds to Manchester trans-Pennine route has stations in Lockwood, Slaithwaite and Marsden, while the Huddersfield, Penistone and Sheffield line has stations in Honley, where I live, and Brockholes. Frequent, reliable, clean and affordable rail services are needed in my constituency and across the north as a clear alternative to the clogged motorways of the M1 and M62.
What exactly is the northern hub? The aim of the project is to allow the towns and cities of the north to work better together and drive growth by increasing capacity and reducing journey times on the rail network in the north. There is a bottleneck on the rail network in the north—largely in Manchester—and a lack of investment in transport infrastructure will act as a restraint to economic growth across the north. The northern hub is a £560 million project of targeted infrastructure investment to help the north continue to thrive that includes a series of proposed rail network improvements across the north that will stimulate economic growth.
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is important that all parts of the northern hub project are properly funded? If only one aspect is funded, that will cause difficulties in the rest of the area.
Jason McCartney
The hon. Lady makes an excellent point. When I sum up, I will re-emphasise that we will only get the total benefit from all the economic benefits if the whole hub project is fully funded. I hope that that will be one of the main conclusions from this 90-minute debate.
The improvements and economic benefits of the project will go as far as Newcastle in the north, Sheffield in the south, Hull in the east, and Chester and Liverpool in the west. It really will benefit the whole of the north. The northern hub will be a catalyst to drive economic growth in the north. Network Rail has calculated that between 20,000 and 30,000 new jobs will be created, that there will be an extra 700 trains a day and that it could be worth up to £4 billion to the northern economy. Network Rail submitted the northern hub proposals to the Government last September, as part of the initial industry plan, and we expect a final decision this summer.
Where are we up to with the project? To give some history, the northern hub report was launched by Network Rail in early 2010. It evolved from a Northern Way report about what was needed to drive economic growth in the north. It defined a set of outputs and the hub was designed to meet them.
Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con)
I commend my hon. Friend on securing this important debate. He is right about the economic growth that the project will provide and the job creation that we need, especially in the north. Is it not true that the project will also help bridge the north-south divide that has grown over the past 10 years?
Jason McCartney
My hon. Friend makes a fantastic point, which was also made after the statement on High Speed 2. As well as investing in HS2, it is important that we invest in local rail infrastructure, which is exactly what the northern hub can do.
In March 2011, the Chancellor announced that £85 million of Government funding was available for developing the Ordsall chord, which is a new link between Manchester Victoria and Manchester Piccadilly stations that will provide a new route enabling passengers to get across the city. Importantly, there will be no need to change trains in Manchester. Network Rail is working to gain necessary planning consents to build the new link.
Last autumn, the Chancellor announced funding for electrification on the north trans-Pennine route between Manchester and York via Leeds. That was not originally part of the hub plans, but it brings huge benefits, such as increased reliability and more room on trains. It is better for the environment and helps reduce the cost of running the railway. In fact, yesterday evening, our all-party group received a briefing on electrification in the north-west, during which we heard all about the benefits. Electrification of the trans-Pennine route between Leeds and Manchester will allow six fast trains an hour between Leeds and Manchester—there are just four at present—and journey times could be reduced by up to 10 minutes. However, the plan has implications, which I will address in a moment.
Some aspects of the northern rail hub project still have to be funded. As has been mentioned, we will only get all the hub’s economic benefits if all of it is funded. Two new platforms are needed at Manchester Piccadilly to allow more trains to run through rather than terminate in Manchester. That would provide more direct train services across the north. Moreover and crucially, new tracks are needed on the lines between Leeds and Liverpool and between Sheffield and Manchester, to allow fast trains between the major towns and cities of the north to overtake slower trains.
This is a live issue in my Colne Valley constituency, and many of my constituents have legitimate worries about it. In fact, I received an e-mail in the past hour from SMART—Slaithwaite and Marsden Action on Rail Transport—which is, as am I, very concerned about the effect that the proposals for faster services will have on local stopping services. Fast trains are great, but they must not exist at the expense of local stopping services. We have to ensure that there is an integrated transport system in the northern corridor, not just the fast services between Leeds and Manchester. I will keep a very close eye on that and campaign fully to keep all the localised stopping services, because it is important that major funding projects keep an integrated local transport system.
Contrary to reports, no decision has been made on which is the optimum pattern for Marsden, Slaithwaite and Lockwood on my patch. The decision will be made through the franchising process and involve consultation with local representatives through the passenger transport executives. Network Rail is in regular discussions with representatives from the Department for Transport, Metro, Transport for Greater Manchester and Northern Rail. They will all work together to establish which pattern best suits residents in the area, mindful of infrastructure capability, commercial demand and improved connectivity. That is why we need the northern hub investment—this really is an important part of it—to provide more tracks and more overtaking opportunities.
I am sure that hon. Members would like to know who supports the hub. Network Rail welcomes recognition by my right hon. Friend the Minister, who has responsibility for rail, that the hub has a case and that the Government have funded both the Ordsall chord and the electrification of the trans-Pennine route. The northern hub is supported by a wide range of stakeholders, local authorities and passenger transport executives, such as Metro in West Yorkshire and Transport for Greater Manchester. Business in the north supports it, and it enjoys cross-party, pan-northern political support, as the number of Members present clearly demonstrates.
The Transport Committee endorsed the hub in a report on transport and the economy in March 2011. I welcome that support. We must remember that the project has the potential to create 20,000 to 30,000 extra jobs for the north, which will help the Government reduce the welfare bill. We would all support that.
Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)
Is the hon. Gentleman aware that the Transport Committee’s recent report on high-speed rail makes specific reference to the northern hub? It is supported by the cross-party Select Committee.
Jason McCartney
I thank the hon. Lady for mentioning that issue, which we were talking about at the all-party group meeting last night. She brings much expertise and knowledge on the Select Committee area. I am sure that the matter that she raises will be examined and explored during the debate.
I note that many other issues surround rail travel, not just in the north but across the rest of the country. I hope that concerns such as connectivity with HS2, rail fares, cross-boundary fares and the non-collection of fares—the conductor’s ticket machine keeps breaking down on some of my train services, so halfway through the service, he stops issuing tickets—capacity, Northern Rail carriage demands and many more matters will be the subject of future debates. However, this debate is on the northern hub.
Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)
On the hon. Gentleman’s point about not being able to collect fares, does he have the same problem on his services as I have on mine, where the conductor cannot collect the fares because he cannot make his way through the people on board who are packed in like sardines?
Jason McCartney
Yes. The chairman of the all-party group on rail in the north makes a fantastic point. I was travelling on the train from Honley, where I live, to Stocksmoor on a Saturday afternoon and lots of people were heading towards Sheffield to do their shopping at Meadowhall. Halfway through the journey, the batteries in the conductor’s machine ran out because he was issuing so many tickets. Apparently, that happens all the time and the machine cannot produce tickets then. At a time when we want to get investment in the railways and recover the costs, I find that absolutely ridiculous. There are many issues like that. I hope that we can continue to explore the matter with the all-party group; that would be excellent.
Jason McCartney
As I said, many other issues surround rail travel but this debate is primarily about the northern hub, which I know my hon. Friend will mention.
Martin Vickers
My hon. Friend is making a splendid case, as always, and is speaking up for his constituents. Does he agree that it is fine to increase capacity, but that we must make the process of allowing new operators to access the service much easier and quicker?
Jason McCartney
My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. In our part of West Yorkshire, Grand Central has increased its range of services and is stopping in Mirfield just outside Huddersfield. Direct rail services, particularly to London and the south, are an important part of breaking down the north-south divide, and I certainly welcome those developments.
I thank the Minister for being here today. I should like to note a few things that I welcome in her speech to the Northern Rail conference in Leeds in October last year. In that speech, she recognised the role that the railway has to play in bringing prosperity to the north, with which all of us in this Chamber would agree. I also welcome her acknowledgement that the Chancellor has prioritised investment in rail by announcing in the spending review £18 billion of funding for rail. I agree with her comments that rail can deliver not only growth, but a more balanced sustainable economic growth and that it can help to tackle the prosperity gap between the north and south. Crucially, the Minister stated that the Government recognised the benefits that the remainder of the northern hub programme could offer and confirmed that they would be looking “very seriously” at the whole proposal in the run up to this July’s high-level output specification 2 statement. Again, I welcome that.
I should like to put the Minister on the spot, however, and ask her three specific questions. First, will she commit to ensuring that the northern hub project is fully funded, so that the north can enjoy the economic benefits that that would deliver: 20,000 to 30,000 new jobs and £4.2 billion of wider economic benefits? Secondly, given that the Government have rightly funded HS2, which enjoys a benefit-cost ratio of 1.6:1 and that the northern hub enjoys a business case of more than 4:1, does she agree that it makes economic sense to fund the hub fully?
Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on securing the debate. I very much enjoyed his use of the phrase “pan-northern,” of which we should have more in Parliament. I support entirely his position on funding the hub holistically as one scheme to get the maximum benefit from it, but what information does he have about the cost ratio changing if we only fund it piecemeal? Surely, if we fund the hub individually in sections, it would result in the costs increasing and the benefit ratio reducing.
Jason McCartney
The hon. Gentleman represents Stalybridge, which is just over the Pennines. Obviously, I have been through his constituency when travelling on train services through the tunnels to the other side. He makes a very good point. Certainly, the benefit-cost ratio diminishes rapidly if the project is not fully funded. I hope that we are getting that point across.
I have asked the Minister two specific questions. My third question is: does she agree that, following the HS2 announcement, the northern hub is even more important to the delivery of wider economic benefits and to ensuring that an integrated transport infrastructure can spread across the north of England? Those are the three specific requests that I should like responses to.
As I start to wind up to allow colleagues to have their say, I must mention HS2. One of the repeated claims made against the HS2 announcement last week is that it will come at the expense of more localised services and that we should spend the cash on improving existing services. Well, the northern hub project clearly shows that both can go hand in hand: huge investment in the existing network and the added capacity and speed of HS2. In summary, the northern hub comes in at £560 million. There are £4 billion-worth of benefits and potentially 20,000 to 30,000 new jobs that would drive the northern economy forward, all for the same cost as the refurbishment of King’s Cross station.
Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair)
Order. I inform right hon. and hon. Members that I have eight Members on my speakers’ list, plus the two Front Benchers, so I encourage a bit of brevity while making clear arguments. I intend to call the first Front Bencher at 3.40 pm.
Angela Smith (Penistone and Stocksbridge) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) on securing the debate. It is apt that I should follow his contribution because my constituency follows on from his, and the line he referred to goes on into my constituency. The only time I will willingly share a platform with the hon. Gentleman is the day when we get improved capacity on the Penistone line. I look forward to that day very much indeed.
For the north of England, the northern hub project is as important as the Crossrail project is to London. In many ways, it is helpful to see the project in those terms. Between the cities of Newcastle, Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester and Liverpool, 14 million people live and work and travel. Much of the rail traffic has to go through an antiquated interchange of rail routes through Manchester and the surrounding area, and very few people—if any—in this room can have any doubt whatsoever that the northern hub project is absolutely crucial to the future of the economy in the north of England.
There is no doubt that, in the past 10 years, there has been a transformation in rail across the north of England, with more and more passengers choosing to travel by train. That modal shift, if we can describe it as such, has supported significant economic growth in the north, as people are able feasibly to commute further to work or to execute their business. However, that growth is now threatened, not only because of the reckless risks being taken with our economy by the coalition, but because of the need to modernise our infrastructure in the north of England so that we do not constrict growth and discourage investment.
Some people might ask, “Why is Manchester’s railway network so crucial to the north or the country as a whole?” I would refer back to the comments made by the hon. Member for Colne Valley to make that case. In the early days, the project was sponsored by the Northern Way—an organisation, incidentally, formed by the three regional development agencies abolished by the Government—and was called the Manchester hub, not the northern hub. Politically, the decision was taken at an early stage to rename the developing project the northern hub, because it was quickly recognised that the benefits realised were not just for Manchester but for the whole of the north of England. It was felt that if we were ever to get the project off the ground and funded by the Treasury, it had to be seen as something that benefited the whole of the north. That is why I make reference to Crossrail. As I said earlier, in a sense, the northern hub project unknots the problems with cross-country trains in a way that will impact on a population of 14 million people.
Yasmin Qureshi
As somebody who formerly lived in the south, I am very happy about the funding for Crossrail. Is it right, though, that the benefit-cost ratio of Crossrail is 1:7, as opposed to 4:1 for the northern hub? Clearly, there is much more benefit to the northern hub than to Crossrail.
Angela Smith
I agree entirely with that point. The northern hub would do a great deal to help tackle the economic disparities between the south-east of England and the north.
What is the northern hub project that we have heard so much about? The hon. Member for Colne Valley illustrated it well: it is a series of works, new track and increased platform capacity in Manchester that will remove track conflicts and relieve traffic congestion. The works will allow up to 700 more trains a day, with space for 44 million more passenger journeys a year. Completion of the works will allow two new fast trains an hour to run between Manchester Victoria and Liverpool, with, as the hon. Gentleman said, six fast trains an hour between Leeds and Manchester, as opposed to four now.
Just as important for someone who represents a south Yorkshire constituency, journey times between Leeds, Sheffield and Manchester—what I have referred to in the past as the “golden triangle” of the north— will be reduced significantly. Leeds, Sheffield and Manchester are equidistant, economically important and interdependent, and we have to maximise the potential of those three great cities. I have argued previously that the present situation whereby it takes up to an hour and often longer to travel the 30 miles between Sheffield and Manchester is unacceptable. That represents a journey time not a great deal different from that experienced by our Victorian forebears—that is how little the north of England has moved forward in rail journey time and capacity in the past century. A completed northern hub would cut the journey time between Sheffield and Manchester and, importantly, would allow two more trains to run throughout the day. That will help to cut the daily overcrowding, which has already been mentioned, on cross-country routes.
The estimated cost of those improvements, as the hon. Member for Colne Valley said, is £260 million—a large sum, but not great when placed alongside the £16 billion budget for Crossrail. It is estimated that for every £1 invested, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton South East (Yasmin Qureshi) said a moment ago, there would be a return of £4 in economic benefits. Crucially, we need the whole of the package to deliver that economic benefit. I see the current congestion and problems in the network as a knot. To deal with the problems created by a knot, one does not half untie it. The whole knot has to be loosened and dealt with to get the benefit, and that is the important point. We have to unknot the network and deal with all the problems created by congestion around Manchester. There is no point in untying part of the knot; we have to deal with the whole problem to get the benefit.
The Chancellor’s recent autumn statement announced the Government’s intention to fast-track some elements of the northern hub project. That commitment is welcome but it goes nowhere near far enough. Work on the Ordsall chord will enable trains from Manchester airport, and Liverpool to Leeds, to use the modernised Manchester Victoria station, but that only partially answers the question of congestion in and around Manchester. The announcement to electrify the north Pennine route and the electrification of other routes around the north-west is welcome, but while that will allow lighter, more efficient trains to use those routes, it will not relieve all congestion and will not help passengers from Sheffield, and those further east on the Hope Valley line, to enjoy faster, more frequent trains. That has a massive impact on the east coast and the Humber bank. The Hope Valley line is critical to all train journeys from Cleethorpes and Grimsby through to Manchester airport, as well as Sheffield.
If the north of England is to close the economic gap with London and the south-east, it is my firm belief that this project has to be given the green light in its entirety for the next control period. The full range of benefits envisaged by the project, benefits that we know are desperately needed to help the north to grow, will not be realised unless we deliver every element of the project.
We have called for this debate today because we have been receiving worrying signals from the Minister. I pay tribute to her, which may seem unusual for an Opposition politician, for the way she has handled the High Speed 2 debate. She has shown a firm grasp of the detail and has been staunch in her commitment to the project, and I would like to see the same for the northern hub. The point made earlier, that the northern hub is critical to complementing HS2, is the important point.
On capacity in the north of England, if it is cheaper to tunnel than to dig steep embankments in the Chilterns, surely we can consider reopening the Woodhead line. It has been said to me that the tunnelling that would be required on the Woodhead line if we were to reopen it is far too expensive for the Department for Transport to consider. Let us therefore have that one back on the table while we are at it.
For many years, the north has lagged behind the south-east in rail investment. Now is the time to change that. It is time to acknowledge that transport spending for the north has lagged significantly behind that made available for London and the south-east, and that action needs to be taken to correct this unfairness in funding allocations by the Department for Transport. This is the best opportunity we have had for years to correct that situation by giving the go-ahead to this project in its entirety.
I pointed out at the start of my contribution that a completed northern hub helps not only Manchester but the rest of the north of England. I call on the Government to prioritise this work. It makes sense for the north and it makes sense for rebalancing the economy, so it makes sense for the UK as a whole.
Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)
I will try to be a little briefer and more directly to the point. I make the fundamental point that I support the assertions in favour of the northern hub, and briefly reflect on the fact that we now have a situation where the Secretary of State is from Rotherham. Is that not a good thing, as a northerner? The Minister has been repeatedly up to Newcastle, both before and after the general election, and we have a Parliamentary Private Secretary, my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones), who is from Harrogate and is a former vice-chair of the all-party parliamentary rail in the north group. It is a positive step to have Ministers and parliamentarians who are genuinely interested in transport in the north, and particularly in railways.
I endorse all that has been said on HS2. That does not mean to say that we do not have to monitor the contracts, support it in the right way and monitor it so it goes well, but fundamentally it is a great thing that we have HS2 investment and the degree of investment we have had in the northern hub, with the Ordsall chord and the electrification that has taken place, which will produce extra capacity. I regularly take the train from King’s Cross to Newcastle and, on the last two occasions, far from being happy-go-lucky in first class, I have sat all the way to York outside the toilets, because that was the only place where there was any space on the floor.
Guy Opperman
Some would say, “Quite right, too.” I do not think that everybody else is doing that, but the point is this: all of us see, commuting as we do to the north, the degree to which there is a lack of capacity on the trains at peak times. I support wholeheartedly the work that is being done by the North East chamber of commerce, which is very supportive of the northern hub, and by the Tyne Valley community rail partnership.
I want to raise one follow-on point from the northern hub and how Northern Rail in particular is conducting itself in the north-east and in Northumberland. If colleagues will indulge me for two minutes, I will explain. “Torchgate” is not a matter that I expect the Minister to solve, but it is important that she understands the great difficulties that Northern Rail has produced. There have been a number of new carriages applied to the Northumberland lines, but a failure—the key point—to actually light the areas such that for three days we had an extra carriage on the crucial 7.42 from Hexham to Newcastle and then the union decided that it was not safe for its drivers to walk in an unlit area to change it all around. Consequently, torchgate means that, in the absence of a torch and the ability to navigate from one end of the train to the other, the train has been cancelled to the great detriment of my local residents.
Hilariously, these trains are Leyland buses on wheels. They are the original 1985 Leyland national bus, which has been turned into a train, and upgrades are welcomed greatly, but the idea that in the north of the north we are being supported by Northern Rail and that the northern hub goes that way, is genuinely not being felt by local commuters and people who utilise this service.
I am acutely conscious that other colleagues wish to get in. I urge Northern Rail to change its approach, resolve the torchgate problem, increase the capacity on the Hexham line and, generally, address the manifest failure to be flexible. I suggest that the Minister can address this. All the rail companies that we have to deal with as we develop and move forward are not looking at what the customer wants: they are working out what they want to do, not what the customer wants to do. Let me give an isolated, easy example.
A plethora of fans want to support Newcastle United or Sunderland on a match day, including Saturday. People might think that it would be obvious for a rail company to lay on extra trains or carriages to entitle people to do that and travel in the right way, but that is not happening. I urge the Minister to speak to Northern Rail about the extent to which it can become more flexible, so that we can have a better, more functional rail system.
Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)
I will, like the hon. Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman), curtail what I was going to say. I congratulate the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) on securing the debate and agree with everything that he said. I will not attempt to repeat it, particularly when so many hon. Members want to speak.
It is worth having some context in our debate. There was roughly an 80-year decline in rail services between 1920 and 2000 and, unexpectedly, over the past 10 or 12 years, there has been a dramatic increase in the number of passengers using the railways. I am not sure that the Department for Transport has completely caught up with a system that is expanding, although I accept that it has done so in respect of HS2—I am talking about the rest of the system. The basic way to determine investment decisions during that long decline was to follow congestion, which meant simply putting money into the south-east of England.
When one justification for the huge investment that goes into rail is to close the north-south divide, one can no longer justify, if one ever could, spending 90%-odd of rail investment in London and the south-east. One way to change that is to ensure that the northern hub is completed in one go. I understand that the Treasury is assessing it over the next six to eight weeks. I should like to make the solid case for the whole northern hub going forward, for the reasons that my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) and other hon. Members have stated. Detailed points need to be made about why the hub will not be as effective if it does not all go together as one.
I welcomed the previous Secretary of State’s statement to go ahead with the Ordsall chord, which is part of the northern hub. But if the whole system does not go together, there will be a reduction in services to Huddersfield, because unless an extra line is put in at Diggle to take the trains past it—I am sure that northern Ministers in the Department will be familiar with the railway lines there—the extra trains on the Ordsall curve will mean a reduction in trains on that route. If such details, including whether the chord will be there if the size of station platforms is not increased, are not dealt with, we will not get the benefit from the investment in the Ordsall chord.
Both in detail and in general terms, now is the time for the Government to say, as they have said, “We are going to try and do something about the north-south divide”, and that means investing in the rail system. Half a billion pounds is never a trivial amount, but compared to the amount going into Crossrail it may seem to be. I disagree slightly with my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge, because this is not the equivalent of Crossrail. We do not have such an equivalent. This is more the equivalent of Thameslink, which frees up capacity in the south-east, and even there it is still only 10% of the cost of Thameslink.
With a benefit-cost ratio of 4:1, the Government should be grabbing at the scheme. There are potentially 44 million passenger places on 700 trains. There will be enormous economic benefit to the whole of the north of England. I hope that the Minister assures us that she and her colleagues will press the Treasury and ensure that, in the next high level output specifications period, we get the full northern hub scheme.
Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) on securing this important debate.
We have talked about a number of transport issues in this Chamber in the past two years. It is becoming a regular occurrence that I enjoy immensely. Credit to the Government, because there has, in fairness, been some real investment in infrastructure projects in the north of England, which was sadly lacking for many years. For example, two new rail stations in my constituency have been announced; there is M62 investment; and the south access to Leeds railway station means that there is an opportunity to expand economic development in the south of the city.
HS2 is a real vote of confidence for the north. The Y route was one of the best decisions made, particularly for those of us in Yorkshire. We must not miss that opportunity. We have to plan for its arrival now. Throughout the HS2 debate, many of those opposing it were saying, “Once it comes, it will suck life out of the region.” It is important that we get this right and solve that problem before it occurs. I do not want them to be proved right.
We have talked lots about travelling from the north to the south, but we do not seem to talk enough about getting from east to west. My hon. Friend the Member for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) established the all-party group on east-west rail and three days later got funding for it, which is a phenomenal achievement. If we could do the same in the north, we would be grateful.
The economy of the north has changed enormously.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
Talk about east-west travel is often about going from Leeds to Manchester, but there is Yorkshire and the Humber beyond—further east. I remind my hon. Friend of connectivity into Hull and, on the south bank, through to Cleethorpes. People in that area are in the golden square of Goole, Cleethorpes, Scunthorpe and Hull. The fact that Network Rail is considering electrification through to Hull is welcome and I hope that the Minister will work hard to achieve it, too.
Stuart Andrew
My hon. Friend never ceases to remind us that Yorkshire goes further east than Leeds. I support his comments.
Stuart Andrew
It has nothing to do with me; it is up to the Minister.
Thinking about the economy, my constituency comprises old mill towns. The mills have now gone and people now travel much further to go to work. We have excellent, vibrant cities and towns in the north of England. We have a horrible reputation of wearing cloth caps and so on, but some vibrant work is going on.
I am proud that Leeds, Harrogate, York, Wakefield and Bradford are working together in the Leeds city region, ensuring that they are making the best of what we have. The chamber of commerce has now linked together with Leeds and north Yorkshire. But we need to work even more widely, so that Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, York, Sheffield and Hull can take up the opportunities that are there. However, there is an obstacle: the current network is struggling. There are more passengers on our railways, more cars on our roads and more freight on the motorways. We need to make it easier to get around.
My mother visited me recently and wanted to get over to Chester to see the rest of her family. Trying to plan her journey from Leeds to Chester was ridiculous, because she would have had to make a number of changes and spend a long time on platforms waiting for connecting trains.
Not so long ago, when I went on a Select Committee visit to Wrexham, I thought I would be good and get the train back to Leeds. It took me four and a half hours on five different trains, by which time all the officials from the Select Committee had got back to London. It is ridiculous that I cannot make a journey that would take an hour and a half by car in a similar time on the train.
Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)
My hon. Friend touches on an important point, because if we are serious about wanting to achieve a modal shift from car to rail, we have to look at the whole journey time. If I visit him, I can get quickly from Milton Keynes to Manchester by train, but it takes as long again to get from Manchester to Leeds, so it is actually quicker for me to drive up. If we want to achieve that modal shift, we have to look at the whole journey time.
Stuart Andrew
That is exactly why the northern hub is so crucial. It represents a recognition that we have to fuel and drive the economy to help us to rebalance it from public to private. We have already heard about all the benefits from my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley, so I will not list them, but it is important to acknowledge that businesses back the proposal. They say that it is essential to their growth and increased prosperity, because they will be able to access bigger markets and attract a wider pool of talent.
We have already said that we do not want to choose between HS2 and the northern hub—we need both. The case for the northern hub is now greater because of the commitment on HS2. Frankly, the north deserves both, and it is an essential part of HS2. The Minister has listened in the past, and we have had new stations, new access and electrification, so I hope that she will listen again. She should be proud of the fact that this issue has united Lancashire and Yorkshire, and the people of the north, in their submission for funding.
Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) on securing the debate, which comes at an important time. Network Rail is looking in detail at the northern hub proposals. The Government have asked Network Rail to revisit the proposals before any final decisions are taken to ensure that the scheme will bring value for money. It is extremely important that we are able not only to talk about the importance of the northern hub, but to show the degree of cross-party support and the spread of geographical support for this major scheme.
I emphasise the importance of the northern hub as a strategic investment in the north. The proposals came from big, strategic thinking. The three northern regional development agencies came together and thought about how the regional economies could be improved, which led to the setting up of the Northern Way and the development of the schemes for the northern hub. Today we are looking at the detail and reaching the final stages of approval.
The northern hub is about individual projects and individual areas. It is about additional platforms and tracks, and it is hopefully about new trains. It will affect a wide variety of places—Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Sheffield, Newcastle and Hull, to name but a few—and it will improve access to Manchester airport. In my constituency, people will be able to get from Liverpool to Manchester in half an hour, and trains to Leeds will take 80 minutes. In addition, there will be more of them. Those are great improvements, which will be of great assistance in developing Liverpool’s potential.
The northern hub is about more than simply individual areas, however, important though it is for each area named. It involves investment of half a billion pounds, which will lead to a £4 billion boost for the northern economies, with the potential for the creation of 20,000 to 30,000 jobs. That massive investment of half a billion pounds will have a significant outcome. As hon. Members have mentioned, it lies beside the £14.8 billion investment in Crossrail, just under £5 billion of which comes directly from the Government. A recent study of the regional pattern of investment in transport showed that about three times as much was invested on a per-head basis in transport in the south and south-east as in the north.
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
On the point about the difference in spend between the north and the south, the hon. Lady may have seen in the Transport Committee the report from the Institute for Public Policy Research, which evaluates the projects that the Government brought forward in the spending review in the autumn. Infrastructure spending amounted to £30 billion, and the spend per head was £2,700 in London, £134 in the north-west, £200 in Leeds and Humberside, and £5 in the north-east.
Mrs Ellman
I have seen that report. It is significant that we register such great disparities, but it is even more important that we try to do something about them, and the northern hub represents a major opportunity to do that. The Transport Committee has taken a particular interest in the northern hub, which we refer to as an important proposal in our report on transport and the economy and our report on high-speed rail.
The Committee supports high-speed rail, but we registered a number of concerns, including about the importance of ensuring that investment in necessary high-speed rail did not take place at the expense of investment in the existing, classic line. We cited the importance of investing in the northern hub and invited the Government to demonstrate their commitment to investing in the existing line by investing in both the northern hub and high-speed rail. Perhaps they will soon be asked to show their position on the matter and to demonstrate their commitment to investing in the existing line.
Julian Sturdy
The hon. Lady makes a powerful case for HS2, and if we are to make high-speed rail a success, we need investment in the northern hub. If we are to bring passengers up to the north more quickly, do we not also have to ensure that we invest in connectivity so that the system that high-speed rail passengers continue their journey on is not antiquated? Otherwise, the system will not work.
Mrs Ellman
I agree entirely with the hon. Gentleman. We want modern, new rail, not only on the new High Speed 2 line but on existing lines and connections, and investing in the northern hub as a separate project is one way to achieve that.
At the moment, Network Rail is assessing the detail of the northern hub proposals and looking at value for money. That needs to be done, but it is absolutely essential to recognise the strategic importance of this investment in rail in the north. The Government’s commitment to rail electrification in the north is much appreciated, but it is not an alternative to proceeding with the northern hub. I await with interest their final decision on the northern hub, and I ask the Minister to assure us that she recognises the strategic importance of investing in the north and to commit to the investment in the northern hub.
Mr Jim Hood (in the Chair)
Order. I will be calling the Opposition spokesman no later than 5 minutes to 4 pm The debate will now finish at 4.15 pm, as opposed to 4 o’clock.
Mrs Ellman
Thank you, Mr Hood.
I hope that the Minister can give us an assurance today that she recognises the importance of the northern hub as a strategic transport investment to improve connectivity and economy. I hope that she can give us an additional assurance that, after due consideration, the scheme will be approved.
John Pugh (Southport) (LD)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) on stimulating this important debate, and I pay tribute to other contributors, in particular the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer), who has fought a long and relentless battle to get the northern hub on the political agenda. I think it can be accepted that to get Merseyside MPs such as myself and the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman) to advocate serious investment in Manchester takes something special, and it is due to a recognition that the Manchester network is a bottleneck for the whole north, affecting Leeds, Sheffield, Chester, Liverpool, Lancashire, Yorkshire and various golden triangles, squares and rectangles as yet unenumerated. The effect on the north is widespread, and my constituents in Southport are affected too; their journeys to Manchester are a nightmare, they suffer overcrowding not only on the train but at the platform in Manchester and they suffer the most appalling stock and the most appalling service.
On 20 October, at the northern rail conference, the Minister said, rather encouragingly, that we were going to get rid of the Pacers. We have heard that refrain before, and people have mentioned cascading stock down and so on, but in reality new trains are found first, foremost and almost exclusively for the south-east. The feeling in the north sometimes is that it is jam tomorrow, and I regard High Speed 2 as jam tomorrow or some way in the distance. Collectively, as northern MPs, however, we all want serious incremental change now. We want the better links with London, which would certainly be a good thing, but currently we desperately need better inter-regional connectivity.
I praise the Government and the Minister for having made a good start. To my great astonishment, we have seen the introduction of new rail in the north-west with the Todmorden curve, and £300 million has been found for electrification and £85 million for the Ordsall chord. The total Government commitment for rail is, however, actually £18 billion, and the whole northern hub project has been costed at £560 million, as Members have said, which puts things in perspective. Hon. Members have pointed out that the benefit-cost ratio exceeds comfortably the figures presented for Crossrail, which is costing about £6 billion. I speak with real bitterness because I was sentenced to two years, for crimes unknown, to serve on the hybrid Crossrail Bill. I was surprised at the many substantial objections to the scheme, which, had it been in the north, would certainly have postponed it, if not altogether eliminated it.
The Secretary of State for Transport has, however, said some encouraging things. She has spoken about investing in 2,700 new carriages throughout the network, but as I pointed out, that will only lead to a weary shrug from the man trapped on the Pacer. I went through some of my e-mails on the subject recently, and I want to refer briefly to two of them. A chap wrote to me in 2008 and said:
“Regularly there are only two carriages laid on and it is standing room before we have left the station. Breakdowns …particularly in winter are a feature attraction of the service however given the age of the trains this is unsurprising. When will there be some newer trains on this line?”
Four years later, another e-mail begins wearily:
“Yet again my journey on a Monday morning has been delayed by over an hour by the poor quality rolling stock used on the Southport to Manchester line…This is on top of the regular short formation of units, which appears to be a Northern Rail buzz phrase”—
a synonym for serious overcrowding.
I therefore welcome the progress that might be made on the northern hub, and we would all like to see more progress. I like the sound of a united or pan-northern approach, which is important, because it has not always been there in previous Parliaments and it is refreshing. Often, the objection to serious infrastructure is the lack of collective political will in an area, but cross-party, substantial and solid political will is clearly present. We do not need a Napoleonic regional mayor to step in and tell us what needs doing. Collectively, as politicians, we have come to the conclusion that this needs doing, and we would just like the Minister to get on with it.
Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) on securing this debate, and on his commitment in campaigning for the northern hub. It is wonderful to see so many hon. Members from across the north in the Chamber, and one or two additional supporters who are more than welcome in our fight. As chair of the all-party group on rail in the north, I am pleased to see so many members of the group here. Hon. Members across parties are united on the issue of the northern hub. We are divided only by the Pennines, which are another reason why the whole hub must be united—so that we do not have the perpetual Pennine divide.
The Minister can judge how important the issue is for all of us, and how crucial it is that the whole hub be funded. We will not have the full economic benefit across the whole north if there is a piecemeal approach. I was worried recently when the Secretary of State talked about the welcome electrification of the Manchester-York line as part of the northern hub. I do not want to split hairs, but electrification was always seen as an addition to the hub, and not as the hub itself. It is essential not to lose part of the hub to that electrification, welcome though it is. It is the hub that will hold us all together.
The hub is not glamorous like High Speed 2, but it is essential if we are to tackle overcrowding, increase line speed, reduce journey times and increase services. It is an integral part of High Speed 2. I speak from bitter experience. When Virgin high-frequency trains were introduced with three trains an hour from Manchester to London, services to my constituency diminished. The trains terminated at Manchester Victoria, and we lost services to the airport and elsewhere because inter-city trains took the paths that our trains had previously taken. The only way to prevent that in future is to ensure that the engineering works proposed for the hub are carried out.
We will have more trains through and to Manchester, and more trains will connect to the west coast main line. Eventually, trains will connect to High Speed 2. That unglamorous engineering work will provide passing places so that we continue to have slow, stopping services with fast services. It will improve signalling, the Ordsall chord route across Manchester city, and Manchester Victoria station. Any hon. Members who have spent time at that station will know that it is not the nicest in the world, and I as a woman do not feel particularly safe there. There will be improvements at the station, and two new platforms at Manchester Piccadilly.
Such improvements are as important to the north as the shiny new 250 mph train, and will be to the whole economy. Services will not then stop completely at Manchester Piccadilly when the Huddersfield train leaves, because it crosses every train path coming into the station, with the result that nothing else can come in and out. Constituents in Bolton will have a better, faster service, and people at my home station, Atherton, will not have to play sardines on the train, or have long waits at another gruesome station, Salford Crescent. They will be able to join the inter-city lines.
The project will bring £4 of benefit for every pound spent, and will do something to redress the imbalance between spending in the north and south. I do not understand why Londoners should have three times as much taxpayers’ money spent on their public transport as our constituents in the north.
Graham Stringer
During the debate I have done some arithmetic, which I believe is right, and which my hon. Friend may be interested in. Three months’ expenditure on Crossrail would pay for the whole northern hub. Is that not extraordinary?
Julie Hilling
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention, which is interesting. It has been interesting during the High Speed 2 debate that people have frowned about putting so much money into the north, and people in the south-west have rightly asked why they are not receiving expenditure. There never seems to be an outcry about expenditure in London. I spend part of my life in London and before becoming an MP, I wanted to come to our capital city. Investment is needed in London, but it is also needed in the regions.
Yasmin Qureshi
I am sure that hon. Members here have no problem with investment in rail projects throughout the country. HS2 has come in at £500 million more expensive than originally projected. The northern hub itself would cost that sort of money. Does my hon. Friend agree that it should not be too difficult to find funding for the northern hub?
Julie Hilling
I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. Of course, it is not easy to find money, and I agree that it is good that the Government have protected some of the investment in rail. We all welcome that, but the issue is not an either/or. It is not all right to say that we can have part of the hub. If the whole north—the north-west, Yorkshire and Humberside, and the north-east—is to benefit, the whole hub must be developed. I am worried that the approach will be piecemeal.
As hon. Members have said, we need connectivity between our great cities, and the ability to travel across the country. We must consider the cost of having so much road traffic because rail travel is not adequate. As some of us have been saying for some time, it is quicker to drive from Manchester to Leeds than to take the train. It is quicker to drive from Milton Keynes to Leeds than to take the train. That is ludicrous, and we need the project to alter that. Like every hon. Member in the Chamber, I plead with the Minister to fund the northern hub in full, so that we will have rail connectivity between our great cities and receive the investment the north so badly needs.
Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)
It is a pleasure, Mr Hood, to have the opportunity to serve under your chairmanship today. I congratulate the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) on securing this important debate. It is even more important following the recent announcement to give the go-ahead to High Speed 2. That announcement is a signal of just how important investment in high-speed, efficient rail services is for the future growth of our national and regional economies. I absolutely support the northern hub as an important strategic investment and opportunity.
In that context, I want to be slightly more parochial and to plead that places and communities such as West Lancashire should not be forgotten when planning and investing in our railways. The danger for West Lancashire is that we lose out because of the dominance of the city regions and core cities that act almost as capitals. The effectiveness of such schemes lies in connectivity and the quality of the entire rail network. West Lancashire is virtually at the crossroads of the north-west. If big circles are drawn around Preston, Liverpool and Manchester, West Lancashire is the bit in the middle. My plea in this debate and the wider debate on transport infrastructure investment is not to forget West Lancashire.
Since being elected in 2005, I have campaigned constantly for improved rail infrastructure across all areas of my constituency. My great concern is that places such as West Lancashire are in real danger of falling behind with rail infrastructure. I shall give a couple of brief examples. Skelmersdale is the most populated town in my constituency, but it has no rail service at all. A major redevelopment of the town centre is about to start and is the biggest investment since it was established 50 years ago. We have a brand new state-of-the-art college, and the town has an exciting new future with many opportunities, if people can get there.
The really good news for the north-west is the Lancashire triangle rail electrification, which will be transformational for the north-west. West Lancashire has three lines serving the area, and I ask the Minister to remember that our biggest town, Skelmersdale, has no rail service at all. Delivery of the Lancashire triangle rail electrification will leave West Lancashire in a strange position, because diesel trains will still run in a small area unless more investment is put into the electrification.
If nothing is done, there will be implications on rail development in West Lancashire. For example, the Manchester line carries an increasing number of passengers, with alternate trains going to Victoria and Manchester airport. Transport for Greater Manchester appears to be suggesting that the airport service may be sacrificed in favour of running trains from West Yorkshire and east Manchester to the airport. The Kirkby to Wigan line passes through Up Holland, which would form the basis of a rail station at Skelmersdale. That line was proposed for electrification in the early 1980s, and there is clearly a need to extend the existing Merseyrail service from Liverpool to Kirkby to serve Skelmersdale. That would provide an opportunity to consider a service between Skelmersdale, Wigan and Manchester, and that should be done because it is likely that many of the employment opportunities for those who live in West Lancashire will be found in Liverpool and Manchester.
My third example is the route between Liverpool, Ormskirk and Preston. Ormskirk has a superb service to Liverpool; the line from Ormskirk to Preston has recently received an improved timetable, and Network Rail is examining the business case for an hourly service. There is, however, strong demand to extend the existing Merseyrail service beyond Ormskirk to Burscough and the famous Burscough curves. That would enable an hourly service to Preston to be delivered at low cost.
Rosie Cooper
I did not quite hear all of that, but I am hopeful that a service on the Burscough curves will eventually be established. My point is that all three routes that I have mentioned will be operating in an area that is dominated by electric services. Electric trains run only where the line is electrified, so unless the trains have an additional power source that will enable them to continue for some distance, West Lancashire runs the risk of becoming isolated.
As well as the new electric trains on the newly electrified Lancashire triangle—well, not new exactly, but second-hand from the London area—the superb Merseyrail electric network also uses third-rail electrification. If lines in my area are not electrified and with the investment to improve the national and regional rail network infrastructure, my fear is that places such as West Lancashire will be left behind, which we cannot afford for a plethora of social and economic reasons. Such a move would begin to create greater disconnection and disintegration of the rail network. The challenge for me, West Lancashire and, I hope, the Minister is to ensure that West Lancashire does not become ever more isolated as a small island of diesel trains that are not included in the great opportunities and investment that is taking place.
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)
It is an honour to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood, and I, too, congratulate the hon. Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) on securing this important debate. How strongly Members from across the north feel about this issue has been highlighted by the strength and number of contributions that we have heard today. It is important that voices from both sides of the Pennines and from otherwise rival areas of Yorkshire and the north-west are heard speaking as one on this issue. Although many of the physical works of the northern hub programme fall to the west of the Pennines, the benefits of the hub would be felt across the whole of the north. I can contribute to that discussion because I am a Sheffield lad whose north-west constituency, although in Cumbria, still harks back to its routes in Lancashire in the old days.
As Members have pointed out, the rail network could play a significant role in securing economic growth in the north of England. As has been highlighted, however, that potential is currently limited by pinch points and other capacity restraints across the network that limit the frequency of trains, raise journey times and reduce reliability. As my hon. Friend the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith) said so well, the northern rail network reflects the needs of its 19th-century creators and the rivalries of Victorian railway companies. It is not fit for purpose in the different economic reality of the early 21st century.
Members from all parties have pointed out the benefits that the northern hub could provide, which include 700 extra trains per day running across the north, improved connectivity between major regional economic hubs, which would give those areas a chance to grow still further and provide vital regeneration, and the creation of up to 30,000 jobs.
Improving links between northern cities and the capital is important, which is why the previous Labour Government delivered the upgrade to the west coast main line and why we want a greater commitment to a new high-speed line serving Manchester and Leeds than the Government have given so far. If we are serious about rebalancing the UK economy and driving the growth that will return the country to long-term prosperity, we must not focus simply on travel between regions. Travel within regions, including northern regions, is also important, and that is seen in the strength of feeling and unity that has been displayed during this debate.
There are some positive things. We welcome the electrification and high-speed rail initiatives in which the new Administration are sticking to the commitments made by the previous one. Question marks and concerns remain in certain areas, but perhaps they are for another debate—I would be delighted if such a discussion could be scheduled for the near future.
The Ordsall chord is a useful piece of infrastructure, but as the hon. Member for Colne Valley highlighted, as long as Manchester Piccadilly has just two through platforms—as most hon. Members will be aware, those two platforms are unpleasantly cramped and overcrowded, and frequently cause delays to trains—the ability to use that station to deliver additional journey opportunities will be severely limited.
Announcing the electrification of the route from York to Manchester via Leeds is a positive move, but without the extra lines and loops to allow express trains to overtake stopping services and freight trains, as proposed in the northern hub, it will be hard to deliver extra services or significantly faster journeys. Ministers are obviously right to examine carefully the scope and scale of projects such as the northern hub before approving them, and it is essential to achieve best value for money. It is also, however, essential that the issues faced by the rail network in the north are addressed strategically and not in a piecemeal fashion.
Now is the time to commit to this scheme. The sooner that it is achieved, the sooner the boost to growth can be felt where it is urgently needed. In their spending priorities, the Government chose to back-load the cuts to rail investment, in contrast to other areas of spending. The bulk of the proposed cuts fall in the final two years of the spending review period, the second of which represents the first year of Network Rail’s control period 5, during which the bulk of the northern hub schemes would be delivered.
The Government are committed to finding almost £1.3 billion of efficiency savings and cuts from the Network Rail and passenger rail budgets over the period of the comprehensive spending review, although the National Audit Office has warned, understandably and rightly, that great uncertainty over where the axe will fall still remains. That is why the continued silence on this project is deeply concerning: as we can see, the lean period for rail investment is fast approaching.
Ministers have consistently said that the case for the northern hub is strong. They are well aware of the business case showing a return of £4 for every £1 invested in the scheme. Today’s debate has shown that hon. Members of all parties from across the north recognise the necessity of the extra capacity, new links and faster journeys that the northern hub will provide. I therefore hope that the Minister will make it clear that she recognises that, if we deal with the scheme in parts and do not implement the full package, the overall cost-benefit ratio will be significantly diminished. Will she make it clear whether she will commit to the full package of improvements provided by the northern hub project appearing in the high-level output specification for control period 5 when it is published this summer?
It is, of course, also important that the northern hub plans reflect the changing environment on the railways and are delivered on in the most efficient way possible, so can the Minister confirm that the Government are examining whether the package of measures can be revised to deliver equal benefit at potentially lower cost in the light of recent announcements on trans-Pennine electrification?
Confidence that the region’s transport infrastructure will be able to cope with the demands placed on it is an essential part of producing the confidence needed to secure investment, jobs and economic growth across the north. The northern hub would help to provide that. That is why we are urging Ministers today to give it their full support.
The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)
It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Hood. This has been a great debate, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Jason McCartney) on securing it. This issue is clearly of great importance to the big turnout of hon. Members who are here today and to their constituents. Throughout my time with the transport brief, both in opposition and in government, I have been impressed by the determination of the MPs and the stakeholders behind the northern hub project. Indeed, one of my first regional visits as Minister was to meet a group of them in Manchester soon after the coalition was formed.
As we have heard today, there is much support for the northern hub project. We heard the gracious support of the Chairman of the Select Committee on Transport, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman), representing the views of her Committee. We also heard support expressed across party lines. There was even trans-Pennine solidarity, which is not something that we get on every issue. I am told that this issue even unites east, west, south and north Yorkshire. Again, not many issues do that. Last but not least, the hon. Member for Southport (John Pugh) commented on how dramatic it was that the issue had united Liverpool and Manchester in support.
I commend the evidence-based approach that those behind the northern hub project have taken in pressing the case for the hub and for improvements in rail and other forms of transport in the north generally. Many hon. Members emphasised the importance of finding ways to bridge the prosperity gap between north and south, and I completely agree that improving our transport infrastructure is an important way to achieve that goal. The Government fully appreciate the economic benefits that improving our transport system can generate. That point was emphasised by many hon. Members: my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley, the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) and my hon. Friend the Member for Hexham (Guy Opperman), to name but a few. We recognise the economic benefits that can be generated by investing in the north specifically as well.
That is why we have placed a priority on improving the rail network even when budgets are severely limited by the pressing need to deal with the deficit. Therefore, as well as going ahead with the high-speed rail network, we have embarked on what is probably the biggest programme of rail improvements since the Victorian era. Those ambitious plans include a number of major projects in the north of England. Many have been mentioned and welcomed today, not least the new stations at Kirkstall Forge and Apperley Bridge, highlighted by my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew).
Our programme also includes important elements of the northern hub project. As we heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley and others, the Ordsall chord is going ahead. That new stretch of railway linking Victoria and Piccadilly—two of Manchester’s busiest stations—has been talked about since the 1960s, I am told, and will deliver benefits to the whole of the north of England by substantially reducing journey times between Liverpool and Leeds.
The electrification of the North TransPennine route between Manchester and Leeds through to York and the east coast line will also deliver important benefits. Strictly speaking, that was not part of the original northern hub scheme, but it was prioritised by the rail industry in its initial plan, which it drew up recently. The combined effect of North TransPennine electrification, the Ordsall chord and line-speed improvements that are already part of the CP4 programme will see journey times between Liverpool and Newcastle cut by as much as 45 minutes.
These programmes are already starting to provide the improved connectivity within the region, between the cities of the north of England, that many hon. Members have rightly highlighted as crucial if the economy in the north is to flourish. The hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge (Angela Smith), and my hon. Friends the Members for Pudsey and for Milton Keynes South (Iain Stewart) emphasised that point. The improvements will also promote the modal shift that a number of hon. Members highlighted as important.
Virtually every hon. Member who spoke emphasised the importance to the northern economy of implementing the package in full during the 2014-2019 railway control period. Those hon. Members included the hon. Member for Bolton West (Julie Hilling), who is the chairman of the all-party group on rail in the north, my hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley and the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton.
As the hon. Member for Liverpool, Riverside, the Chairman of the Select Committee, acknowledged, Network Rail is as we speak considering in detail all the remaining elements of the hub that have yet to be funded. The Government have asked it to do that to assist us in the decisions that we will make in the summer. There are about nine individual packages. Network Rail is considering, at a more detailed level, the business case for the whole project, as well as for all those nine individual elements. This is, therefore, a timely debate—a good opportunity for the House to contribute to the Government’s thinking on this matter.
Julie Hilling
I am slightly puzzled. The argument is that the whole of the hub gives the 4:1 benefit ratio. There is a possibility, of course, that one little place may give less benefit than another bit, but all together the benefit ratio is 4:1. Given what the Minister is saying, is there a risk that a part that has a lower cost-value ratio but still a value will be overlooked?
Mrs Villiers
As I said, we have asked Network Rail to consider in greater detail the value-for-money case for the whole project—all elements of it—because we believe that it is very important to consider very thoroughly all the elements of the northern hub. That view is confirmed by the strong support expressed by hon. Members today.
With input from train operators and the passenger transport executives, Network Rail needs to establish the impact that North TransPennine electrification will have on the original hub proposals. It may be that the eventual package put forward by Network Rail, the industry and the PTEs to achieve the goals of the northern hub is somewhat different from the original 2009 proposals. We will obviously have to consider carefully the input that we get from the industry groups and from the PTEs in the relevant areas before we make final decisions on the matter. I fully appreciate how much support there is for going ahead with the whole package and I fully appreciate the benefits that it could deliver. I can assure the House that the Government will consider the northern hub package as a whole as well as its individual elements when we make our decisions on HLOS2 and the CP5 period this summer.
My hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley wanted me to pre-empt that process and make the decision today. I am afraid that I will have to disappoint him, but I can assure him that we will consider the matter with great care in the run-up to our announcement on HLOS2 and the CP5 period in the summer. Whether we can fund the whole programme in CP5 depends on what is affordable within available budgets. We will also need to assess the case for improvements elsewhere in the country to determine which projects can be given priority. Of course we want to fund as many projects that promote economic growth as possible, but we also need to ensure that the Government’s overall finances are not overstretched in these difficult times. Given the competing demands on limited taxpayer funding, it is vital that the overall cost of running the railways and the cost of such upgrades come down. If we can achieve the kind of savings that Sir Ray McNulty said were possible in his report last year, it will become much easier to deliver the improvements that passengers want.
We will be publishing a Command Paper on the reform that we need to see costs come down on the railways, thus improving value for money for both passengers and taxpayers. The more inefficiency that we can take out of the railways, the greater the scope for delivering infrastructure upgrades and additional services.
Naturally, today’s debate has focused primarily on improvements to the conventional rail network in the north. The projects that we have given the go-ahead to in the north will complement our proposals on high-speed rail. I welcome the support that has been expressed today by a number of hon. Members for the Government’s high-speed rail proposals. The Secretary of State for Transport was very clear that her decision was to go ahead with the whole Y network to Manchester and Leeds and not just the London to Birmingham leg. HS2 can potentially complement the improvement of local and regional services. For example, Centro produced an analysis that said that the benefits of HS2 to Birmingham could be significantly increased, with improvements to the local and regional transport network in the west midlands. It is quite important to consider whether the commitment to the Y network to the north of England might further strengthen the case for the northern hub package because of its potential to spread the benefits of high-speed rail more quickly and more widely around the north of England.
In the last few minutes available to me, I want to pick up on some of the more specific questions raised in the debate today. My hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley expressed concern about the future of services to Mossley, Greenfield, Marsden and Slaithwaite. Before the announcement on the electrification of the North TransPennine route, some suggestions were made on the future of those services and whether some stations between Stalybridge and Huddersfield might end up with fewer stops. The electrification announcement means that Network Rail will need to review this matter and the capacity on the route. My hon. Friend made it clear that no decision on this has been made as yet. It will not be made for some time and it will be made only after an appropriate public consultation.
The hon. Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge has again called for the reopening of the Woodhead route. I have to say that that was not one that was prioritised as part of the northern hub because of the capacity that is still available on the Hope Valley line.
My hon. Friend the Member for Hexham and the hon. Members for Southport and for Blackley and Broughton all expressed concern about crowding in the north of England and the balance of spending between north and south. I remind the House of the importance of the additional capacity that the Government are introducing through the HLOS programme.
The northern hub has achieved a significant amount of support. I commend the evidence that has been produced by the supporters of the project. It will be useful to the Government when they make their decision. We will be listening with care to the views of all those in the north of England who are promoting this project when we make our decisions on what rail upgrade we can take forward in the next railway control period.
Melanoma
(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Pauline Latham (Mid Derbyshire) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hood, and I am grateful to Mr Speaker for selecting this important topic for debate. According to the British Journal of Cancer, the incidence of the most serious form of skin cancer, melanoma, is expected to rise by 52% in both men and women by 2030. One of the many tragic aspects of advanced melanoma is that, compared with other cancers, it disproportionally affects younger people. Indeed, more than a third of all cases of melanoma affect people who are under the age of 55. With such a high incidence, combined with the aggressive nature of melanoma, treatment options are very important.
I want to draw attention to the new and innovative drug, ipilimumab, also known under the trade name of Yervoy. Ipilimumab works in a new and unique way through a form of immunotherapy. It encourages the immune system to produce more cancer-killing cells. The drug is significant, and it has not been available to patients before.
In July last year, ipilimumab was launched in the UK with a licence approved by the European Medicines Agency. This is the first major advance for treatment of this cancer in 30 years. However, to the disappointment of patients and stakeholders, the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence announced on 14 October that it would not be recommending ipilimumab for the treatment of advanced melanoma on the NHS. I was profoundly disappointed to discover that the chief executive of NICE, Andrew Dillon, had deemed that this treatment was not
“a cost effective use of NHS resources.”
In response to that news, I held a stakeholder investigation in the Houses of Parliament and invited patients, carers, clinicians, charities—they included the patient support group, Factor 50, and the Karen Clifford Skin Cancer charity, also known as Skcin—and parliamentarians to come together and discuss their personal concerns about the negative preliminary guidance that was given by NICE.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
My hon. Friend mentioned that this disease affects younger people to a greater extent. One of my constituents, who is young and has young children, needs the drug Yervoy, which is expensive. Does she agree that we need to do everything that we can to ensure that those young children can see their mother for a longer period and that her last days are not lost days?
Pauline Latham
I completely agree with my hon. Friend, and I will come on to some cases in a moment. It is a very important point.
As well as coming together to share our concerns, the meeting was held to create a report that was submitted to NICE in response to the appraisal consultation document, in anticipation that it would be considered ahead of the NICE technology appraisal meeting, which took place on 16 November. We have had no response so far.
When holding the meeting on advanced melanoma, I was given the opportunity to hear first hand from melanoma patients, who are desperate to receive the drug. Melanoma often strikes at the younger end of the population. More than a third of all cases of melanoma occur in people below the age of 55, and it is the second most common form of cancer in the UK for those aged between 15 and 34. What those statistics on advanced melanoma in the younger population do not show is that many people in that age group will have children and so will face a very aggressive cancer, alongside the knowledge that they face leaving behind their children and family.
The patients whom I met at the meeting all echoed a simple and profound point: they are desperate to stay alive, so that they can be with their children, husbands, wives, partners and families. Given that treatment options for the disease have not advanced for three decades, how can it be fair not to release the drug for use by those patients who could have more time with their families? One young patient—a lady aged only 30—said at the meeting:
“I need to live. I have to live for my children. I just want a few more years so that my boys will remember me.”
Richard Clifford, the founder and trustee of the Karen Clifford Skin Cancer charity—Skcin—said at the meeting that
“median overall survival time after diagnosis is six to nine months. This is tragic because people have little time to prepare themselves and their loved ones for what is inevitably going to occur.”
I could not agree more with his sentiments. There is clearly an unmet need in the treatments available, and I believe that ipilimumab has a place in today’s treatment options, which are already scarce for cases of malignant melanoma. An experienced oncologist from Leeds who has used ipilimumab echoed that view at the meeting:
“It is the first drug that can help people live longer or make them more likely to be active for a meaningful period of time.”
I add a personal plea for help: my brother died from a malignant melanoma 11 years ago this month at the age of 54, one week after his birthday, leaving his wife and two teenage children. I know how debilitating this form of cancer is and how quickly it can spread. Apart from radical surgery, he had very few options in terms of the drugs on offer. As a result of Michael’s illness and death, I see my GP regularly, and I have had several pre-cancerous areas removed before they had the chance to progress to malignancy.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on raising this important issue. As someone with very fair skin, I have had to have skin removed and examined, so I understand the potential consequences and the worry that people go through. Does she agree that we need more education about the consequences for fair-skinned people and, indeed, everyone of too much exposure to the sun and the overuse of sunbeds?
Pauline Latham
Yes, and I thank my hon. Friend for bringing that up. Sunbeds are still a problem, particularly among young women who think that having a tan makes them look healthier.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I congratulate the hon. Lady on bringing this matter before the House. Skin cancer is the deadliest cancer in Northern Ireland, and that is very worrying. The hon. Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) mentioned sunbeds. People under the age of 35 who use sunbeds increase their possibility of getting skin cancer. What does the hon. Lady think can be done? Does she think that councils need to do more? Councils have control of sunbeds, so perhaps they need to say, “No more.”
Pauline Latham
Yes, I would like that to happen. Looking tanned does not mean that someone is healthy. In fact, tanning increases the risk of malignant melanomas, which are rapid killers, and I would like councils to have the strength to say, “No.”
It may be expensive to prescribe the drug, but it is the first advance in treatment for a long time, and if used, may offer the opportunity of more trials to refine it, which could lead to its becoming even more effective. For young people with melanomas, it is a lifeline, even if they only survive for a relatively short time. Let us not forget the possibility that agencies, such as social services, and welfare benefits can cost the country huge sums if the remaining parent has to give up their career to look after a young family. Patients with this aggressive disease are expected to have a median overall survival time of six to nine months, but in trials, 46% of patients taking ipilimumab were still alive after a year, and in some cases, patients can live even longer.
At the stakeholder’s meeting on 8 November, we heard from a patient called Ian. He seemed well, spoke eloquently and raised many important points on access to treatment, which I urge hon. Members to read in the report that we submitted to NICE—I am happy to provide a copy. Sadly, before 21 December 2011, Ian became very unwell and was ultimately bedridden. The short time between Ian attending the meeting in November and his death a week ago demonstrates the aggressive nature of advanced melanomas.
Lack of access to the drug is still a major concern to all melanoma patients and, of course, to their families and friends. It is very distressing for them to know that there is a drug on the market that has been proven to prolong the lives of sufferers, if even for only a few months or years, yet they cannot access it through the normal channels. I acknowledge that ipilimumab is available in some parts of England through the cancer drugs fund, but it is not available in all areas, and the fund does not even exist in Wales—yet another example of inequality from the cancer drugs fund and another illustration of a postcode lottery.
Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con)
On my hon. Friend’s point about a postcode lottery and regional variation, I think that she will be interested in figures that I recently obtained through a parliamentary question. They break down the number of registrations of newly diagnosed cases of melanoma—skin cancer—by local authority and region. I would happily give her a copy. In my region of Avon, Somerset and Wiltshire, there has been an explosion of newly diagnosed cases of skin cancer, from 254 in 1999 to 455 in 2008—an increase of 79%. The huge variation across the country shows that this is not just about the future, but that we have a problem now that we must urgently tackle.
Pauline Latham
Yes, I agree. I thank my hon. Friend for raising that point, because although we are talking about a big increase by 2030, he is right that melanomas are affecting more and more people, particularly the young, and they are usually a death sentence.
What will happen to those patients in areas covered by the cancer drugs fund who can access ipilimumab through the fund when funding ends in 2014? That further illustrates why it is imperative that NICE recommends ipilimumab, so that it is available across England and Wales to all patients who could benefit from it. The Minister knows that my concerns about access to treatments for other cancers—for example, Avastin as second-line treatment for bowel cancer via the cancer drugs fund—are well versed through parliamentary questions and speeches in the Chamber. I remain equally determined to ensure the availability to cancer patients of other life-prolonging drugs, such as ipilimumab.
Alongside Factor 50 and Skcin, I urge in the strongest possible terms that the Department of Health, the manufacturers and NICE work together, so that ipilimumab is available to appropriate patients across England and Wales. There are huge concerns that, without a positive decision on ipilimumab, patients will lose out on a lifeline to have those extra months or even years with their loved ones.
The Minister of State, Department of Health (Paul Burstow)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Derbyshire (Pauline Latham) on securing the debate and bringing this important issue to the attention of the House today, and on the way she set out the issue and spoke of her experiences and of those whom she represents. She powerfully made the case for the drug and, more generally, for the need to raise awareness in order to educate people and to ensure they take the right steps better to protect themselves from melanomas.
I want to make it clear that the Government’s commitment to improving outcomes for cancer patients, including people with malignant melanoma—the most serious form of skin cancer, as my hon. Friend said—remains unwavering. Our cancer outcomes strategy, which we published just a year ago, sets out our aims for delivering health care outcomes as good as those anywhere in the world. Our ambition is to reduce significantly the number of deaths from preventable and avoidable cancers. The strategy sets out actions to tackle preventable cancer incidence, improve the quality and efficiency of cancer treatment and services, improve patients’ experience of care, and improve the quality of life for cancer survivors.
I will start with prevention, to which some reference has already been made, because it is the really important aspect of this issue. Cancer Research UK has been running the SunSmart campaign on behalf of the Department of Health for a number of years. It is a national campaign that provides information and advice about skin cancer and sun protection, and it has a particular focus on young people aged 16 to 24, for the very reasons that my hon. Friend rightly mentioned. Its major activity in 2011 was a bespoke marketing partnership with T4 on the Beach, which is a popular music festival, I am told. At the event, about 3,225 people in the target audience were directly engaged by the campaign, and the evaluation showed that those who saw the T4 SunSmart campaign were more likely to report that they would wear sunscreen in the future—72%, compared with 52%. Clearly, there are lessons to learn from that for future campaigns in this area.
In reference to the intervention by my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy), my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Derbyshire talked about sunbeds, and I draw her attention to the Sunbeds (Regulation) Act 2010, which came into force last April, making it an offence for sunbed businesses in England and Wales to permit people under the age of 18 to use sunbeds on their commercial premises. To reinforce that, we have been working with Cancer Research UK through the Department-funded “R UV Ugly?” campaign to raise awareness of the dangers of sunbeds and the benefits of skin checks. The campaign is being run in partnership with the company sk:n, which is providing free ultraviolet scans in its clinics across the UK.
That brings me on to early diagnosis, which is the next step in the process.
Jim Shannon
I intervened earlier on the hon. Member for Mid Derbyshire (Pauline Latham), regarding councils sometimes needing to be more aware of what they can do. Has the Minister any intention of asking councils to be more proactive in preventing sunbed use? That is perhaps a key question.
Paul Burstow
In England, one of the opportunities coming up as a result of the Health and Social Care Bill is the transfer of public health responsibilities to local authorities. Alongside the authorities’ other responsibilities for environmental health and trading standards, that brings both enforcement and education opportunities, which will be very important in making the existing regulations even more effective.
Earlier diagnosis is central to the strategy the Government have laid out, because if we catch more cancers earlier they will become more treatable. The SunSmart campaign has a website that provides information about how to spot the symptoms of the disease, and during 2011 it received more than 11,000 visits per month on average, peaking in June, surprisingly, with more than 21,000 visits. With a programme grant from the Department of Health, Cancer Research UK and the British Association of Dermatologists are working together on a toolkit to provide practical online support and training to help GPs with pattern recognition for skin lesions. The toolkit will be piloted early this year, before a planned national roll-out, building on the evidence base.
That leads me on to treatment. Once skin cancer is diagnosed, access to appropriate treatment, delivered to a high standard, is critical. Increasing access to cancer treatments is a goal that all Members who have contributed, or are listening, to the debate share. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Derbyshire for her campaigning work on behalf of a number of her constituents and other people, and I would like to set out the current situation in relation to ipilimumab. I am struggling with the pronunciation of that word, and I apologise; I do not in any way wish to denigrate the issue. It is really important to explain where we are, because the drug is being appraised by NICE for use in the treatment of stage 3 and stage 4 malignant melanoma. NICE has a rather difficult job, and my hon. Friend has fairly described the challenge it faces in coming to its judgments. NICE’s role is to provide the NHS with robust, evidence-based guidance on whether a drug should be available, on clinical and cost-effectiveness grounds. I would like to reassure my hon. Friend that NICE recognises that its work has genuine consequences and has an impact on individuals’ lives. It makes a great effort to ensure that clinicians, patients, and anyone with an interest is involved in its work. I will forward my hon. Friend’s speech to NICE and ensure that it sees it.
NICE published its draft guidance on both the clinical and cost-effectiveness of ipilimumab last October. My hon. Friend has explained that the document does not recommend the use of the drug by the NHS, and she has described, in no uncertain terms, the dismay and disappointment that she and others feel on behalf of the families and the sufferers. However, NICE has not yet finalised its guidance to the NHS, and I am sure that Members will appreciate that, because NICE is an independent body, it would not be appropriate for me to dictate to or direct it. What I can tell Members—I hope this will be at least a glimmer of light—is that Bristol-Myers Squibb, the manufacturer of the drug, has proposed a patient access scheme, and the Department has agreed that NICE can consider it. I understand that NICE will now ask its appraisal committee to consider the scheme as part of its reconsideration of the drug.
Until NICE publishes its final guidance, PCTs are responsible for making funds available on the basis of individual needs in their local populations. There is no excuse at this point for PCTs not to do that, and patients have a right under the NHS constitution to expect local decisions about the funding of medicines and treatments to be made rationally, following proper consideration of all the evidence. In addition, where a treatment is not normally funded, PCTs are required to have processes in place to consider exceptional funding requests if a doctor feels that a particular patient’s exceptional clinical circumstances would warrant such funding. To help PCTs make these difficult decisions, the Department has issued a set of core principles that should govern them.
That is the current regime, and when this Government came into office they decided to go further, as part of their coalition programme. We are delivering on a promise in our programme for Government to create a cancer drugs fund. In the first year of the fund we have provided £50 million, and from 2010 through to the end of the fund there will be £600 million. I will say a bit more later about what happens after the fund ends.
Rehman Chishti
It is great to hear the Minister saying that we are looking to ensure that people can get new drugs, such as Yervoy. Does he agree that we must also ensure that PCTs, local authorities and the voluntary sector provide excellent palliative care to the terminally ill?
Paul Burstow
My hon. Friend makes a very important point. He will know that we received the recommendations of the palliative care review last year, and we are looking forward to making announcements on it in the near future.
The cancer drugs fund means that clinicians in England are now able to prescribe cancer drugs from which they feel patients would benefit, without restrictions simply on cost grounds. That goes back to the absolutely correct point made earlier by my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) about adding years, months and days to a person’s life, and ensuring that those days are not lost.
Up until last November, 10,000 cancer patients had benefited from the cancer drugs fund and clinical recommendations, with a number of them receiving ipilimumab through the fund. Strategic health authority regional clinical panels are using their clinical judgment. I understand the concern raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Derbyshire about variation, but we are assured that there is consistency between areas, and if there is any evidence to the contrary, I urge her to share it with the Department so that we can pursue that.
On the cancer drugs fund in Wales, the devolved Administration have to make their own judgment about how to prioritise NHS spending, and in contrast to the UK Administration they have decided to reduce spending on the NHS.
My hon. Friend also asked about the future arrangements when the cancer drugs fund finishes. We want to find a way for patients who benefit from drugs provided through the fund to continue to do so, at a cost that represents value to the NHS and to our wider society. We are considering whether it would be sensible, after the fund comes to an end in 2014, to assess some of the drugs, including the one we are debating, under the new value-based pricing arrangements. A final decision has not yet been made on that, but I will certainly write to my hon. Friend as we get to a conclusion.
My hon. Friend drew attention to the potential wider costs of cancers such as melanoma. As we develop our value-based pricing system, it is important that we ensure that those wider costs are taken into account. We want a more systematic and transparent way of working, so that interested parties, including pharmaceutical companies, charities, Members of Parliament and the general public, are clear in advance about what factors can be taken into account and what supporting evidence will be needed.
I thank my hon. Friend for raising this issue. I hope that a glimmer of hope is provided by a new scheme that could allow NICE to re-appraise the drug and come to a different conclusion. We will now wait to see how NICE proceeds. It is absolutely right to use parliamentary opportunities such as this to raise awareness. It is by raising awareness that we will save lives, which is the bottom line.
Female Employment (Scotland)
(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)
As you will be aware, Mr Hood, Scotland has been much in the news during the past couple of weeks, but I will focus on the real world experienced by its citizens and the new challenges that are emerging, rather than fixate on a process story that fascinates only a small minority of our population but looks set to continue for many days, weeks and months to come.
One major feature of the post-war era has been women’s increasing economic power and growing participation in the workplace. Women are better educated than ever, and girls outperform boys at school and their male colleagues at university. They now populate the ranks of middle management. More than 45% of solicitors in the UK now are women, and it is predicted that by 2017, there will be more female doctors than male. Even during the economic downturns of the 1980s and 1990s, female employment levels were not substantially dented, possibly because women dominated many low-paid and part-time jobs, as they still do today.
However, the current economic downturn has created a serious and potentially permanent shift in the jobs market. Not only has it halted women’s progress in the workplace and our economy more generally, but it risks putting it into reverse. We urgently need greater analysis and a determined political will to ensure that women, who make up the majority of our population, do not find their opportunities for advancement crushed.
The problem exists on either side of the border, but regrettably, in some cases, the position in Scotland is worse than overall UK average, as I will highlight. I have been concerned about it for many months. That is why, along with women from business, academia and the trade union movement, I called last year on the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs and committees at Holyrood to carry out specific investigations so that we can examine the issue in further detail.
Although there is an understandable focus on the worryingly high youth unemployment—today’s figures showed the extent of the problem—the number of women claiming unemployment benefits in Scotland increased by more than 15% between November 2010 and the end of 2011, rising from 36,300 to 42,100. By contrast, the male claimant count rose by only 1% during the same period. Our female unemployment rate is now at its highest in more than 23 years. When the Scottish Government were asked in December to comment on those figures, their response was that the rate of female unemployment remained lower than the UK average. Funnily enough, that was their response at the start of last year to the general unemployment rate: that is, until the comparison started to go in the opposite direction, when they stopped mentioning it at all.
Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this debate. I only regret that it is such a short opportunity to discuss this extremely important issue. Does she accept that, although there is no complacency in Scotland about any sort of unemployment, the fact that female employment in Scotland has been consistently higher than the UK average must also be taken into consideration? That must be included in the context of understanding why our female unemployment is at the level it is.
Ann McKechin
With respect to the hon. Lady, to a woman in a low-paid job who has just been made redundant, comparative unemployment levels south and north of the border are immaterial; the problem is that she has lost her income. That is complacency and political gamesmanship. People who face job loss require a much better answer.
Ann McKechin
I am sorry, but I wish to make progress and give the Minister an opportunity to respond.
The result of this lack of action is now showing in our economy. A TUC report last month showed that long-term unemployment is rising faster in Scotland than in any other nation or region of the UK, and that Scotland has eight of the 10 local authority areas showing the largest percentage increases in long-term unemployment over the past year. Last year, more than 26,000 Scots spent their second Christmas in a row on the dole.
Sadly, it is likely that the rate of female unemployment in Scotland will increase. Women hold about two thirds of jobs in the public sector, and job reductions north of the border are occurring somewhat later than in England. Unfortunately, 2012 looks likely to be a bleak year for everyone, regardless of where in the United Kingdom they live. There are still substantial job cuts to come in the public sector, where women dominate. TUC analysis shows that an estimated 70,225 public sector jobs in Scotland will be cut between now and 2017.
Dr Whiteford
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way and conscious of her time. Will she at least acknowledge that, given the concentration of women in low-paid jobs in Scotland, and the dominance of women in the public sector, the single best thing that has happened has been the introduction of a living wage in those parts of Scotland’s public sector for which the Scottish Government are responsible? That living wage, and a guaranteed pay increase for people on low wages in Scotland, will benefit women disproportionately.
Ann McKechin
I certainly agree that the living wage is an excellent way to address issues of low pay. That is why I am delighted that Glasgow city council led the way on that matter. I note that qualification, but it is regrettable that the Scottish Government have not insisted that all employees of local authorities and public agencies in Scotland—not just civil servants, who are by far the minority of public servants in Scotland—also be paid a living wage if they are on low salaries.
There is more evidence that, unlike in previous recessions, men are now more willing to take on part-time work, which again has historically been female-dominated, or work in sectors such as retail and caring. The Scottish Trades Union Congress pointed out the growing problem of under-employment in a comprehensive study in September. It estimates that, in Scotland, more than 17% of the working-age population are either unemployed or under-employed: that is, working part-time but seeking full-time employment. That equates to more than 460,000 Scots who are currently unable to access the quality full-time work opportunities necessary to provide a decent standard of living for themselves and their families. The STUC’s latest analysis for December increased that figure to more than 500,000. More and more Scots must rely for lengthy periods on a string of temporary contracts, agency work and the much-abused zero hours contracts. Such working arrangements form an increasing slice of low-paid work in which, again, women are the clear majority.
Both the UK and Scottish Governments are obliged by the Equality Act 2010, passed by the last Labour Government, to give due consideration to the implications for gender equality of their policies. So far, the lack of rigorous gender impact assessment of the many complex changes made over the last year has pushed many women into substantial economic hardship. The Institute for Fiscal Studies report commissioned by the Fawcett Society last July revealed that, overall, single female households will be significantly harder hit during 2010-2015, in terms of net income loss, than their male equivalents, largely because more than 92% of lone parents in this country are women. Although the female rate of unemployment is still lower than the male rate, the impact of female unemployment can often be more considerable. For example, it has more effect on children living in single-parent households.
An analysis of the June 2010 Budget by the House of Commons Library found that women will pay roughly 72% of the net cost of the changes in taxes, benefits and tax credits set out in the Budget. The subsequent comprehensive spending reviews in 2010 and 2011 ushered in further cuts and welfare reforms that have shifted yet more of the burden on to women and families. Of the £18.3 billion a year raised through net direct tax, pay and pension changes since the 2010 election, £13.2 billion comes from women. The Institute for Fiscal Studies has calculated that, as a direct result of the UK Government’s tax and benefit changes, the average family of four will see a deduction in their income of £1,250 per annum by 2015.
Both Governments accept the argument that good-quality and affordable child care is key to allowing many women to fully access the jobs market. It should be a matter for serious concern that Scotland has the highest child care costs in the United Kingdom, and the UK Government have compounded the problem by cutting the proportion of child care costs that are covered for families eligible for working tax credit from 80% to 70%. Research published by Aviva last summer shows that, already, thousands of women have left the workplace to look after families because work is increasingly considered to be uneconomical.
In November, The Scotsman reported that the number of Scottish youngsters attending child care services has fallen after a quarter of registered crèches closed in two years. A number of holiday play schemes, out-of-school clubs, play groups and children and family centres have also shut their doors, as cuts to public services hit harder. In October, the Scottish Government launched a new fund for child care projects, but £1.5 million over three years for the whole country is grossly inadequate if we are serious about our children’s future and the ability of their mothers to work their families out of poverty.
As well as the failure to assess the impact of current policies on women over the next few years, there is also an urgent need to assess where women will be in any new economy.
Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend think that there is a correlation between the increase in female unemployment and the increase in child poverty?
Ann McKechin
I agree with my hon. Friend, who is an expert in this area, that there is a direct correlation. It is no surprise that there is an increase in child poverty at the same time as that in female unemployment, even though both Governments have a statutory duty to make sure that they reach demanding targets. That is another good reason why this issue needs to be addressed.
We need to assess where women will be in any new economy over the next few years. That economy will apparently be less reliant on the service sector and will involve the engagement of a greater proportion of the work force in science, engineering and technology occupations, both at graduate and, just as importantly, college and craft levels. Although women make up more than 45% of the UK work force, they remain under-represented in those SET occupations. In 2010, only 12% of all SET employees were female, and the UK has the lowest proportion of female engineering professionals in the European Union, at just less than 9%. Gender segregation is especially extreme in SET skilled trades, such as electrical work, with women forming roughly 1% of the work force. It is deeply regrettable that the UK Government have stopped funding the UK Resource Centre for Women in Science, Engineering and Technology. That has been handed over to the Royal Society and the Royal Academy of Engineering. I have nothing against either of those eminent institutions, but they are not accountable to our electorate or to this Parliament, and their fellowships are both more than 90% male.
Scotland is rightly proud of its scientific and engineering history and its strong academic reputation, but why is there utter silence apparently on the role of women? A look at the Scottish media might point us towards one of the sources of the problem. Not one of our main Scottish print titles has a female editor, and there are very few female journalists in news. The vast majority of columnists and bloggers are male, too. Even the BBC is not without fault. During last year’s Scottish Parliament election campaign, “Newsnight Scotland” ran an entire extended half-hour programme with a panel of eight men and a male presenter. That is not an exception, but too often it is the norm. In too many areas of our public life—the media being just one example—the rate of increase in female representation remains stubbornly low, and without proper focus it can easily fall back.
I am pleased that the Royal Society of Edinburgh, with the involvement of Professor Anne Glover, the chief scientific adviser for Scotland, has established a working group to develop a cohesive and comprehensive strategy for Scotland to increase both the proportion of women in the science, technology, engineering and maths work force, and the number who rise to senior positions in universities, institutes and business. The report is due shortly and I hope that both Governments will give it the attention it deserves.
As I mentioned earlier, the picture in non-graduate STEM employment is even grimmer, and I am struck by how few public agencies in Scotland have given this any attention, but, given that we have only three female council leaders out of 32 in Scotland, should we be surprised? I have been impressed by the good example set by the Olympic Delivery Authority in its procurement processes. It introduced a business charter for inclusion, which, as well as pushing contractors to do more, also, crucially, provided them and their employees with support and training. The charter rightly calls for diversity and inclusion to be at the heart of an organisation’s culture, including the way in which it recruits and treats its own staff. The impact of that initiative has been considerable. As of last year, more than 1,000 women were directly involved in the construction work on the site. Can hon. Members imagine if we could reach those sorts of levels with the forthcoming work on the new Forth road bridge? The question we need to ask in Scotland is: why are we so far behind the curve?
This is an example of how Government—national and local—can help to change culture and practice. I believe that even in the toughest of economic times it is not impossible to look at, first, an action plan to combat women’s unemployment, and secondly, a nationwide code of conduct in the public, private and voluntary sectors driven by public procurement to increase diversity. My challenge to both Administrations is to start working together now in 2012 for a fair work arena for women, because we deserve it.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
It is a pleasure, Mr Hood, to serve under the chairmanship of a constituent. I congratulate the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin) on securing this debate about female employment trends in Scotland. It is one of a number of debates relating specifically to Scotland that have been held recently in both Westminster Hall and the main Chamber, and such debates are welcome. Following on from some of the hon. Lady’s remarks, I congratulate Johann Lamont on becoming the leader of the Scottish Labour party, which relates to the hon. Lady’s arguments. Moreover, at the end of last year, my colleague Ruth Davidson became the leader of the Scottish Conservative party, so the political process in Scotland has some female leadership. I am sure that both ladies will bring significant influence to bear in the months ahead.
The fight against unemployment is a priority for the UK Government. We are committed to getting Scots off benefits and into the workplace. Work remains the best and most sustainable route out of poverty. The UK Government have measures in place to support all claimants to find work. These measures are not gender specific. We want women and men to get the job opportunities that they need.
Nevertheless, this challenge must be set against the context of the UK recovering from the biggest financial crisis for generations and the deepest recession of almost all major economies. The uncertainty and instability in the eurozone area, where unemployment is higher than in the UK, continue to have a chilling effect on our economy.
Despite the difficult environment, we are still trying to help women. Many of the 90,000 Scots who have been lifted out of tax at the lowest end are women. The measures that we are taking on additional child care are helping women south of the border, with Barnett consequentials for Scotland. At the same time, our reforms of public service sector pensions will mean that lower-paid public sector employees, including many women, will get better pensions. On top of this, the UK Government have announced new support for women’s enterprise, with funding to provide 5,000 mentors for new and existing female entrepreneurs. Similarly, the establishment of the Women’s Business Council is geared towards helping the Government to maximise women’s contribution to future UK economic growth.
I recognise that there are concerns that women are being disproportionately affected by unemployment. Fears have been raised because of the predominance of women in the retail sector, in local government employment, in the NHS and in part-time work. However, as John Philpott, the chief economic adviser at the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development said last month, it has been tough for both sexes in the 2011 jobs market. He commented:
“What we do know is that the relative position of women has not so far worsened as much as commonly perceived or as widely anticipated given the high concentration of women workers in the public sector and in part-time jobs more generally.”
Labour market analysis published last month by the Scottish Government shows the trend in Scotland over the past year is for women moving out of unemployment and inactivity into employment. As the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my right hon. Friend the Member for Epsom and Ewell (Chris Grayling), said today,
“The latest figures reflect the current challenging economic climate but also show more women entering the workforce.”
That was backed up by the Prime Minister, who told the House earlier this afternoon that 59,000 more women are now in the workplace than at the time of the 2010 general election.
Ann McKechin
Female unemployment in Scotland has increased by 25% in the last quarter, so would the right hon. Gentleman not acknowledge, given the statistics that he has just quoted, that there needs to be a much more thorough analysis, so that we can get to the root of the reason why there has been such a rapid increase, whether that is likely to be a permanent shift in the job market and what sectors will be particularly affected?
David Mundell
I agree with the hon. Lady that analysis is important to getting to a full understanding of what the situation is. I assure her that the Government are not complacent in that regard.
The Government also have an ambitious agenda to reform the benefit system and to support those who are able to go back into work. The increase in female jobseeker’s allowance claimants in Scotland can be partially attributed to the change in the rules for lone parents. Most lone parents with a youngest child aged seven or over are no longer entitled to income support purely on the grounds of being a lone parent. They must now claim jobseeker’s allowance or employment and support allowance or find work. There are plans to apply that rule to lone parents with a youngest child aged five or over from this year. Our policies for lone parents strike a balance between the right to benefit to support the family and wider responsibilities to support themselves and lift their children out of poverty when that is feasible.
We also understand the importance of flexible working. It is the Government’s intention that the law will better support families juggling work and life, and the businesses that employ them. We are currently developing our proposals for extending flexible working legislation and will be consulting with stakeholders on how best to implement them.
Ann McKechin
The right hon. Gentleman mentioned the fact that more lone parents are coming into the job market because of changes to regulations. Will he tell us what dialogue he has had with the Scottish Government about the fact that, in Scotland, child care costs are so high? Proper, affordable child care is absolutely vital if people, particularly those on lower incomes, are to get back into employment.
David Mundell
The Secretary of State and I have had ongoing discussions with the Scottish Government on employment and wider economic issues and on how we can dovetail our policies to ensure that they work in the best way for people in Scotland. The hon. Lady clearly highlights a significant issue, which I will take up again with the Scottish Government the next time I have the opportunity to do so. I appreciate the importance of the issue that she is raising.
The UK Government recognise the issue of child care and are implementing measures geared to helping more women into work. The hon. Lady will be aware that, following the autumn statement, the Scottish Government will receive more than £500 million in addition to the sums that they had anticipated they would receive. In relation to that funding, the Scottish Government will have the opportunity to invest more in child care and skills development.
Looking forward, the integration of child care into universal credit when it is introduced in 2013 will protect work initiatives and ensure that support is focused on low-earning families. As I have said, we know how important child care is in helping mothers into work. Child care costs will be supported through an additional element in the universal credit. Support for the costs of child care within the universal credit will be made available to all lone parents and couples, where both members are at work, regardless of the number of hours they work. On average, families with children are more likely to have a higher than a lower entitlement under the universal credit.
More broadly, the Department for Work and Pensions is taking a number of measures to assist all claimants into work. The advisory support in job centres across Scotland is tailored and personalised to the individual’s needs. Claimants of both genders have access to a range of “Get Britain Working” initiatives, including work clubs, enterprise clubs, the work together scheme, work experience, new enterprise allowance and sector-based work academies. Similarly, work trials allow employers and employees the chance to try out employment opportunities.
The Work programme is a key part of our reforms and, as the hon. Member for Glasgow North knows, it went live in June. We are also helping to break down the barriers to employment through the flexible support fund, which can assist with child care expenses, travel costs and clothing costs. It also targets support to particular groups of claimants. The DWP is looking at bids for grant funding from bodies that specifically support lone parents and women with special needs, such as mental health issues.
Across Scotland, there is huge concern about youth unemployment and, obviously, a significant number of the people affected by that are female. Youth unemployment has been rising since 2004.
Dr Whiteford
Does the Minister agree that the Scottish Government’s commitment to ensuring that every young person in Scotland between the age of 16 and 19 has an apprenticeship, college or university place or training opportunity is a good thing and that it is the right direction to be moving in to tackle youth unemployment?
David Mundell
I can certainly assure the hon. Lady that I accept that many things the Scottish Government do are good. What I do not accept is the often presented premise that, if the Scottish Government do something, it is a good thing, and if the UK Government do something, it is a bad thing. We need to work together, particularly on issues such as youth unemployment.
As I said, youth unemployment has been rising since 2004 and is an issue on which we all need to take an interest. That is why I am particularly pleased that John Swinney is going to join the Secretary of State and me at a national convention to consider the issue of youth unemployment, with all other relevant stakeholders from throughout Scotland. In terms of identifying issues and concerns, we have undertaken a number of very successful events in Irvine, Hawick and Falkirk to date, and a national event will take place in Dundee in March.
We have also announced the youth contract, which will bring an extra £1 billion of extra investment into supporting the young unemployed, whether through wage incentives, additional work experience and opportunities or money to the Scottish Government. There will also be the offer of a work experience place for every 18 to 24-year-old who wants one before they enter the Work programme.
The UK Government cannot solve the employment challenges facing Scotland alone. The Scottish Government have many policy levers, with important responsibilities for education, skills, business tax and enterprise, which can be used to improve the employment situation. Scotland’s two Governments must work together to achieve this.
Question put and agreed to.
Written Ministerial Statements
(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Foreign Affairs Council: 23 January - General Affairs Council: 27 January
(12 years, 4 months ago)
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The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs and I will attend the Foreign Affairs Council on 23 January. I will also attend the General Affairs Council on 27 January.
foreign affairs council
The High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Baroness Ashton of Upholland, will chair the Foreign Affairs Council on 23 January.
Iran
As agreed at the December 2011 FAC, Ministers should be presented with a package to expand and strengthen EU sanctions against Iran, including an oil embargo and further restrictions on finance, petrochemicals and gold. If agreed, these measures will reflect the degree of EU concern about the continued development of the Iran’s nuclear programme. These robust measures aim to reduce Iran’s ability to fund its nuclear programme and to encourage it to resume serious and meaningful negotiations.
Syria
In response to the continuing repression, we are pushing to agree strong conclusions on Syria and a further round of EU sanctions. The UK has proposed an additional list of 21 military and security officials we believe are responsible for the violence against civilians. We are also working with partners to agree further sanctions at the February FAC.
Burma
Ministers will discuss recent developments in Burma, including the release last week of a significant number of political prisoners, and how the EU can best support the Burmese Government in continuing on their path of reform. We expect conclusions to be adopted welcoming the recent positive developments; and making it clear that the EU will respond substantively if further progress is made in key areas, including free and fair by-elections on 1 April, and further steps towards resolving the ethnic conflict.
On 13 December the Foreign Secretary said:
“I am delighted to hear that a significant number of political prisoners in Burma have today been released, including 88 Generation and ethnic leaders”.
“The release of all political prisoners is a long-standing demand of the international community and I warmly welcome these releases as a further demonstration of the Burmese Government’s commitment to reform”.
“This is exactly the kind of measure I called for in all my meetings with Burmese Government leaders last week. So is this week’s much needed ceasefire in the conflict with the Karen people. I hope these positive steps will contribute to greater democratic participation in the upcoming parliamentary by-elections”.
Speaking on 12 January, the Foreign Secretary welcomed the ceasefire between the Burmese Government and Karen National Union:
“I welcome the reports that the Burmese Government and Karen National Union have signed a ceasefire after 63 years of fighting. This is good news for the people of Burma. It has been a long-standing goal of the international community to see a ceasefire, and indeed it was one of the key issues on which I urged the Burmese Government to make progress during my visit last week when I also met with Karen representatives. There is still a long way to go fully to rebuild trust between the parties after so many years of conflict, but this is an important step in the right direction”.
MEPP
Ministers are likely to receive a report from Baroness Ashton on the talks in Amman between Israeli and Palestinian negotiators, which Quartet representatives also attended.
We also hope to agree conclusions which welcome the direct talks facilitated by the Jordanians as part of the Quartet process; encourage both parties to present comprehensive proposals on territory and security as called for in the Quartet statement; and urge both parties to refrain from actions which might damage the prospects of a two-state solution.
Egypt
We expect discussions to focus on the completion of elections to the lower House and the first sitting due on 23 January. We will urge EU partners to maintain a high-level of ambition on the EU offer, and to ensure that it is communicated effectively; and to push the Egyptians on the central role that civil society has to play in the transition process. Although there are unlikely to be conclusions at this FAC, we expect there to be some in February reporting on progress on the transition.
Sudan/South Sudan
The discussion is likely to focus on the unresolved issues and tension between the two countries following secession of South Sudan in July 2011. Additionally, Ministers may review the ongoing conflicts and lack of humanitarian access in Southern Kordofan, Blue Nile, Abyei and Darfur, and the recent violence in Jonglei, South Sudan. We expect the adoption of the first formal conclusions since South Sudan’s secession, which we believe should mark the progress that secession represents, while setting out the EU’s concern at the ongoing conflict, human rights abuses and weak governance in both countries.
Serbia/Kosovo
Baroness Ashton is expected to brief Ministers on progress in the EU-facilitated dialogue between Serbia and Kosovo. A decision on Serbia’s EU candidate status will be taken at the February GAC; so any ensuing discussion at this FAC will probably focus on Serbian progress towards meeting the necessary conditions on Kosovo as specified by the December European Council. We welcome the progress made over the Christmas period, with Serbia and Kosovo implementing the dialogue agreement on freedom of movement. But we believe there is still more for Serbia to do to meet fully the European Council’s requirements before the February GAC, particularly on Kosovan representation in regional fora.
Belarus
We expect Ministers to agree an expansion of the designation criteria for exiting EU sanctions against Belarus. Formal conclusions may also be agreed, and Ministers may discuss the political and human rights situation in Belarus.
Common Security and Defence Policy (CSDP)/Horn of Africa
Although CSDP/Horn of Africa is not a formal agenda item, Ministers may be asked to agree conclusions reaffirming their commitment to launch the regional maritime capacity building (RMCB) mission to the Horn of Africa—as agreed by Ministers at the FAC on 1 December. The mission will help to strengthen the counter piracy efforts of local actors. We are keen to see the RMCB make a tangible difference on the ground, and to ensure that the EU Operations Centre best co-ordinates military support to this predominantly civilian mission and ensures coherence with existing EU missions in the region.
Religious Freedom
Although not a formal agenda item, we expect Italy to raise freedom of religion following recent violence against places of worship in Nigeria. On 25 December, the Foreign Secretary said:
“I condemn today’s bomb attacks in or near churches in Nigeria. These are cowardly attacks on families gathered in peace and prayer to celebrate a day which symbolises harmony and goodwill towards others. I offer my condolences to the bereaved and injured”.
general affairs council (gac)
The GAC will be chaired by the new Danish EU presidency.
Before the official programme of the General Affairs Council, Herman van Rompuy will present, over breakfast, the latest situation with the intergovernmental treaty. There are two main items on the GAC agenda in January. The first is the European Council: follow-up to the December Council and preparation for January’s informal Council on growth the following week (30 January).
The conclusions of the December European Council meeting can be found at:
http://www.european-council.europa.eu/council-meetings/conclusions.aspx.
The second substantive item is the multi-annual financial framework, where there will be a stock-take of progress made in technical working groups. The Danish presidency will explain how they plan to organise this negotiation under their chairmanship.
There will also be an update on recent decisions taken by the European Parliament and a presentation of the Danish presidency’s work plan.
Taxi Drivers (Criminal Records Certificates)
(12 years, 4 months ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Lynne Featherstone)
The Government have received representations from a number of organisations concerning the appropriate level of criminal records checks for licensed taxi and public hire vehicle drivers. At present the legal entitlement for many drivers is for a standard level criminal records check, although the practice has grown up of applying for enhanced level checks across the sector. These checks include any relevant local police information, in addition to a record of previous criminal convictions, cautions and warnings.
Having carefully considered these representations, and consulted representatives of the sector, we have decided that:
All taxi and private hire drivers should be entitled to enhanced criminal records checks; and
Licensing authorities will additionally be entitled to check whether any applicant is barred from work with children or vulnerable adults under the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006.
Taking account of the fact that many drivers are self-employed, criminal records applications may be made through the appropriate licensing authority. The decision on whether to grant a licence will remain a matter for the licensing authority.
This change clarifies the law and regularises practice which has grown up over many years in the taxi sector.
Changes will be made by secondary legislation as soon as practicable.
House of Lords
(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Phone Hacking
(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Fowler
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is the latest police estimate of the number of individuals whose phones have been hacked by newspapers, and how many arrests have been made.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)
My Lords, the latest estimates by the Metropolitan Police Service indicate that there may be about 800 likely victims of phone hacking. There have been 17 arrests as a result of the continuing police investigation.
Lord Fowler
My Lords, we obviously do not know how many people will be charged, but we do now have a very good picture of how widespread phone hacking was. Is it not clear that the phone hackers and those who employed them believed that their power put them above the law? Given that, is not one of the lessons of this whole scandal that we should never again allow one proprietor or one company to own a disproportionate amount of the British media?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I am not going to comment on the last point made by my noble friend, but no doubt the House and others will have listened to that. The police have spoken to about 1,800 people, of whom, as I said, 800 are likely victims. Whether charges will result from those 17 arrests is something on which I cannot comment.
Lord Prescott
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the appalling level of these arrests and prosecutions reflects badly on the British press and was made possible only by the use of no-win no-cost litigation by those who were complainants, including me. Why are this Government in their legislation on legal aid quite prepared to meet the unanimous demands of the press that we reduce their costs in such situations and yet increase the costs of individual complainants and reduce their access to no-win no-cost litigation? Can he assure the House that those he has mentioned as having been arrested, including the Prime Minister’s former adviser, Mr Coulson, played no part in changing the policy of the previous Government, who rejected the request from the media?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I can agree with the noble Lord that this has not been the finest moment for the British press. His remarks about no win no fee go wider than the Question on the Order Paper, but that is a matter that we will obviously have to take into account. On the broader issue of phone hacking, phone hacking is obviously illegal, but we must await the outcome of the Leveson inquiry before we make any final decisions in this matter.
Lord Tebbit
My Lords, would it not be in the public interest for the press to publish, however they gained knowledge of it, activities by a Minister, in his working time and in his office, which were quite clearly contrary to all standards of decency and the Government’s own code of conduct for Ministers?
Lord Henley
My Lords, what the press publish is a matter for the press and not for us, but I note what my noble friend has to say about the activities of some people in the past. I repeat that we feel that we should wait until the inquiry being conducted by Lord Justice Leveson has been concluded.
Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury
Does the Minister agree with the editor of Private Eye, who said at the Leveson inquiry yesterday that we do not need new laws to govern the press, that phone hacking, paying the police for evidence and being in contempt of court contravene existing laws, and that we need proper and vigorous enforcement of them?
Lord Henley
My noble friend makes a very good point. All the matters she referred to are against the law, and we should always be very loath to pass new laws purely because we see a problem happening when there are existing laws that serve that purpose very well. The important matter is to make sure there is proper enforcement.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, why was the Minister so reluctant to comment on that part of the question asked by his noble friend Lord Fowler about concentration of press ownership? I thought the Minister belonged to a Government who were showing some concern about the wilder excesses of capitalism. Is not excessive concentration of press ownership a clear illustration of that?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I think some of the concentration of press ownership happened during the Government of whom the noble Lord was such a distinguished member in former years. I do not think it would be appropriate, as I said, to comment in advance of the inquiry that will be concluded in due course, in his time, by Lord Justice Leveson.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
My Lords, can the Minister tell the House, in general terms, whether systems of state security dedicated to the surveillance of communications worldwide can cast any light at all on the question of phone hacking? If that is the case, subject to proper safeguards, can such information can be relayed to the Leveson inquiry?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I am not sure I can assist the noble Lord on that latter point. I can say that my understanding is that it is relatively easy to hack into texts and voicemails on individuals’ mobiles but very difficult to get into live calls on a mobile, which is something that only possibly the security services and others would be able to do. These things are possible but are much harder. In the main, we are talking about hacking into texts and voicemails.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
Perhaps the noble Lord can help me in my ignorance. Can he say whether the Leveson inquiry’s terms of remit cover the subject that was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, about the concentration of media ownership? If not, can he say what the Government will do about it?
Lord Henley
My Lords, the terms of reference for Lord Justice Leveson were set very wide indeed and it will be for Lord Justice Leveson to produce his report in due course. The timing of that report is obviously a matter for Lord Justice Leveson.
Lord Inglewood
Does my noble friend the Minister know whether the inquiries that the police made before the arrests that he described in response to my noble friend Lord Fowler’s Question have been completed? If not, is there an anticipated timetable for completion?
Lord Henley
Operation Weeting, which is one of the police investigations into the matter, is ongoing. As I made clear, there have been 17 arrests so far. There might be more in due course.
Lord Hamilton of Epsom
Is my noble friend not concerned that the source of these telephone numbers in the beginning may have been the police themselves, who sold the numbers to the press?
Lord Henley
My Lords, that obviously is a concern and is one of the matters that was considered in the report from Dame Elizabeth Filkin, which was published on 4 January this year. We expect the police service as a whole to study the recommendations of that report, and various other reports including that from HMIC, and draw the appropriate conclusions.
The Lord Bishop of Chichester
My Lords, I appreciate that the question about the implications of the present Bill on legal aid was not in the original Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Fowler, but it seems a reasonable extension of it. Although I would not want to politicise the thing in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, did, it does seem there is a question about disproportionate power. It is not so much about the concentration of the power of capitalism as the concentration of power against the relative powerlessness of the individual. That does seem to be a legitimate extension of this and I would be grateful if the Minister could reflect on that.
Lord Henley
My Lords, I did not think that the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, politicised this question unnecessarily and, similarly, I do not think that the right reverend Prelate has politicised it. However, I do think that does go beyond the Question on the Order Paper.
Shipping: Tax Revenue
(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Prescott
To ask Her Majesty’s Government why, when they are able to provide estimated tax liabilities due to tonnage tax on British shipping, they are not able to supply figures for revenue received.
The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)
My Lords, estimated tonnage tax liabilities were provided using database information from Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. This general approach is regularly used when answering questions on tax.
To construct reliable estimates of tax received would require HMRC checking each tax return, linking it with associated payments and estimating how much tax received related to tonnage tax. This exercise would be extremely time-consuming. However, revenues received will be broadly similar to those figures already given.
Lord Prescott
The Minister is aware that this is a successful tax. It increased the British fleet from 4 million tonnes to 18 million tonnes and that is an important factor. But I cannot accept his reply that he knows what the liability is and knows what the profits are but we cannot afford to find out what the tax liability and payments are because that would cost more, as he said in a letter to me, than a parliamentary reply. That is unacceptable. We are entitled to know.
However, I am more concerned about this tax.
Lord Prescott
I am concerned about the recent transfer of the Cunard steamship company, which enjoys this fiscal arrangement, to Bermuda. It has retained the tax but been removed from the statutory requirement to have a captain or crew of a certain kind on its ships. That is unacceptable.
Lord Prescott
The loss of the “Concordia” reminds us of the importance of having a captain and safe crew. The “Concordia” is owned by the American company that owns these ships. There are two standards on cruise liners, which is totally unacceptable.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I am not sure how I interpret that question, but I think the relevant bit relates to the original Question, which is to do with the numbers that I gave the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, in my Written Answer. I can assure him that it is standard practice to give numbers based on the liability in respect of years. That is done in innumerable Answers to Questions. The numbers in this case, as is normally the case, will be broadly reflective and close to the actual tax paid. It is simply that the tax paid gets paid at different times according to the individual circumstances of the company.
I am happy to recognise that the noble Lord, Lord Prescott, was Secretary of State for Transport and many other important things at the time that this important tax was introduced. Just to correct his figures, the gross tonnage of British shipping in 2000 was 5.8 million tonnes and, indeed, it has increased to 18.2 million tonnes since then.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, perhaps I can help. One of the motivations for providing the option of a tonnage tax was significantly to enhance the training and safety of the shipping fleet. Has the tax achieved that purpose and are any records kept and tracking done on those issues?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, the tax has achieved an estimated reduction of £45 million of tax which the shipping industry in this country would otherwise pay under conventional corporation tax. It means that we have a more vibrant and healthy shipping industry in this country. Of course there are many other associated issues that my colleagues in government keep under review and discuss with the industry.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, is the Minister not concerned that the obfuscation involved in his replies to my noble friend Lord Prescott's questions merely reinforces our anxiety, which has also been expressed by the Public Accounts Committee of the other place, that the Government may be guilty of treating large companies somewhat more favourably than ordinary taxpayers, and that this may be another instance of cover for a somewhat cosy deal?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I am surprised that there are any suggestions of some cosy deal. After all, this was a tax introduced by the noble Lord’s Government. He now says that he might have done a cosy deal. It has put British shipping ownership on a level playing field with other countries in Europe; it involves state aid, and the EU at some stage will review it. If anything, the complaint that we get is that other countries take unfair advantage of the EU dispensations.
As to what the other House has to say, I am sure that noble Lords will not need reminding that it was as recently as 1628 that this House stood up to another place on the question of tonnage and poundage and got us into frightful trouble, not least with the attempted impeachment of the Duke of Buckingham, who put forward the proposal. So I am certainly not going to cross swords with another place on this topic.
Lord Trimble
I listened with interest to the Minister’s reply to the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer. He said that the tax, by reducing the amount payable so far below what would be payable in corporation tax, led to a huge increase in tonnage. Does that not indicate that there ought to be a similar movement in corporation tax generally and that it would be hugely successful?
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, what it indicates is that tax competition and not having tax dictated on some uniform basis from Brussels is something that we will defend to make sure that where appropriate we can take advantage of that. We will have the lowest corporation tax regimes in the G7 and then one of the lowest in the G20. That will make our industry highly competitive on tax.
Lord West of Spithead
My Lords, I declare an interest as chairman of the Merchant Navy Association. I am sure that the Minister will agree that from our maritime colleges in this country we produce some of the best qualified deck officers and engineer officers who operate in ships around the world. Does he agree that we should give more support to cadets going through these schemes? I think that there is a requirement around the world for more of these people, and we could actually provide more assistance in the way of apprenticeships to enable that to happen.
Lord Sassoon
My Lords, I am certainly happy to agree with the opening premise of the noble Lord’s question, and he makes an interesting suggestion, which I will take away and refer to my colleagues.
NHS: Transition Risk Register
(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Baroness Pitkeathley
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether their risk assessment of their proposed National Health Service reforms will be published before the Report stage of the Health and Social Care Bill commences.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)
My Lords, the Government are appealing the Information Commissioner’s decision that the transition and strategic risk registers should be released, for the reasons explained in my recent statements to the House. The tribunal has initially fixed the oral hearing for 2 and 3 April, but my department is urgently discussing with the tribunal how the case may be expedited further. Regrettably, however, it is not possible for this to take place before Report commences.
Baroness Pitkeathley
My Lords, the Minister’s reply will be disappointing to many Members of this House, who believe with the Information Commissioner that,
“there is a very strong public interest in disclosure of the information, given the significant change to the structure of the health service the government's policies on the modernisation will bring”.
Moreover, the noble Earl himself is, I know, on record as saying that he is anxious to get the matter decided as speedily as possible. Are the Government considering a delay in the timing of Report, so that the House can have before it all the information that it needs to ensure that this important Bill is subject to detailed scrutiny, which is such a significant function of your Lordships' House?
Earl Howe
My Lords, I understand the noble Baroness’s disappointment. As I have said, my department has made strenuous representations to ensure that this process is concluded as speedily as may be possible, consistent with the need for both parties to assemble the necessary evidence and present their cases properly. In answer to her second question, of course we have considered the timetable for Report in the context of this process, but we have concluded that if the Bill is to go through its full passage by the anticipated time of the end of the Session we need to start Report at the beginning of February. So, regrettably, our conclusion is that the start of Report cannot be delayed.
Baroness Meacher
I understand the Government’s reluctance to publish risk registers. Governments do not tend to be keen to publish documents that are going to be deeply embarrassing to them. However, will the Minister invite the Information Commissioner to identify key sections of the risk registers that really should be before the House of Lords before it undertakes its work on Report, and will the Government and the Minister comply with the Information Commissioner’s recommendations?
Earl Howe
My Lords, this issue turns on a disagreement between ourselves and the Information Commissioner about where the balance of public interest lies. Our view is that the balance of public interest does not lie in disclosure, and his view is the opposite. It would be likely, if we gave the Information Commissioner a second opportunity to look at this, that he would come to the same conclusion as before, so we have to let due process occur.
Baroness Thornton
My Lords, the strategic health body in London was perfectly content to make the register of risks on the health Bill available, so the House needs to know, first, what the difference is—except in terms of size—in the national Department of Health making its risk register available. Secondly, I realise that in appealing the Information Commissioner’s decision the Government have said, in effect, that this decision has cross-government implications. Does the Minister accept that it also has wider implications for Parliament? In this House, our ability to scrutinise legislation effectively must be in doubt if any Government withhold important information from us, so what course of action does the Minister suggest that noble Lords in this House should take under these circumstances?
Earl Howe
My Lords, to answer the second part of the question first, a substantial number of the risks pertaining to the Bill are already in the public domain and we are considering whether there is scope to draw these sources of information together in a single place, so that noble Lords can look at them more easily. To answer the first part of the noble Baroness’s question, I made inquiries about NHS London. Its situation is very interesting and quite different from that of the Department of Health. NHS London developed its risk management strategy with a view to it being visible to stakeholders and the public, as its document says. It is therefore a reasonable assumption that officials will have worded their risks for inclusion in the register in the knowledge that that wording would be likely to form part of a document placed in the public domain, so there is a very real difference between the two situations.
Baroness Jolly
My Lords, as has been suggested, there are wider issues here. Could my noble friend the Minister tell the House to what extent he believes the use of risk registers might be compromised if their authors feel they cannot be entirely candid?
Earl Howe
My Lords, risk needs to be thought about and assessed thoroughly and often in worst case terms in order to inform policy development and implementation. Risk registers are therefore a basic policy management tool and, for robust risk management to take place, officials have to be free to record all potential risks fully and frankly, with absolute candour, in confidence that anything they say will not be disclosed. If officials knew or believed that what they wished to say was going to be disclosed, that would inhibit them in expressing views fully and frankly. That, in turn, would erode confidence in policy-making and impede good government.
Lord Wills
My Lords, apart from the specifics of this case, there is clearly an issue of constitutional significance when this House is being asked to scrutinise legislation without having available to it all the centrally relevant information. That is clearly the case here. Which committee of which House would the Minister recommend looks at this particular constitutional issue?
Lord Owen
My Lords, there is a Motion on this very subject before the House in my name, and I hope that there will be an opportunity well before we reach Report for it to be debated. Since public companies are under strict obligations to publish their risk assessments—they have to weigh very carefully what they say because they could be sued by shareholders in their companies—why is it so different for Her Majesty’s Government in the circumstances in which the Information Commissioner has expressed the view that this is a legitimate case that ought to be made available?
Earl Howe
The Freedom of Information Act was framed specifically in a way that would protect the process of policy-making within departments. Our view is that the risk register forms an integral part of policy-making and implementation; the Information Commissioner came to a different view. It is about the balance of public interest here: we wish to see this process adjudicated further.
UK: Union
(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what measures they propose to take to consult the whole of the United Kingdom about the future of the Union.
The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)
My Lords, following the outcome of the 2011 Scottish Parliament elections, the Government accept that there is a case for holding a referendum in Scotland. If there is to be a referendum, we believe that it should be legal, fair and decisive. Therefore, we are consulting on the best way to achieve this. I can reassure the noble Baroness that the Government look forward to receiving views from across the United Kingdom during the consultation process.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the break-up of the United Kingdom will affect us all throughout the UK? If so, will we all have an equal right to make our views known, and why not through a referendum? We have had an equal right to express our views on AV; we are told that we will have an equal right if competences move from this country to the EU, so why is there not an equal right throughout this country to vote on the most important constitutional issue to face any of us in our lifetime?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I am sure that most, if not all, of your Lordships would find it very grievous indeed if the United Kingdom were to break up. Nevertheless, in the 11 referendums that have taken place since 1973, only two were held nationwide. Indeed, previous referendums have been held in only one nation of the United Kingdom—in London and in the north-east of England. We believe that whether or not Scotland should leave the United Kingdom and become a separate independent state is a matter for the people of Scotland. It would not be good for relationships within the United Kingdom if it were felt that some parts of the UK had been prevented from doing so by others. Our sincere belief, which I am sure we share, is that that will not happen—that those of us who believe that the values which we share across these islands are to be upheld will win a comprehensive victory, and that Scotland has contributed to the United Kingdom in the same way as the United Kingdom has contributed to the good of Scotland.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Does my noble and learned friend not agree that if the separatists in Scotland wish to leave the United Kingdom, that is a matter that needs to be settled in Scotland? If, on the other hand, the so-called devo-max option is being considered, whereby matters other than foreign affairs and defence are considered in Scotland, that is a matter for the United Kingdom as a whole. It would effectively create an English Parliament and a federal Parliament, and that would have to be settled by a UK-wide referendum.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I agree with my noble friend that if the separatists were to have their way and Scotland were to vote to leave the United Kingdom, that should be determined by the people of Scotland. I also agree with him that the so-called devo-max proposal, as far as one can understand what it is—in our exchanges last week, noble Lords suggested that it was a product without a brand or a brand without a product; I cannot remember which way round it was—has implications for other parts of the UK, and we are certainly well seized of that fact.
Lord Martin of Springburn
My Lords, as a Scot, I do not want separation. I feel strongly that there should be only one question in the referendum, and one question alone. I ask the Minister to give some advice to the Prime Minister: the best thing that he can do would be to stop appearing arrogant in his interventions. It does not help those of us who want to retain the United Kingdom.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, one of the issues in the consultation to which I referred is the number of questions in a referendum, although the United Kingdom Government have made it clear that our preference would be for a single question on whether Scotland should remain part of the United Kingdom. To do otherwise and to import questions such as devo-max would only muddy the waters and lead to a very indecisive outcome. We want a referendum that is not only legal and fair but decisive as well.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
The Government this week announced the establishment of the new Commission on the Consequences of Devolution for the House of Commons. There are some excellent members on it, but why was there no consultation on the membership with the Official Opposition? Who will be looking at the consequences of devolution for the House of Lords?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, the noble Baroness is right to draw attention to the fact that, as was announced yesterday, there will be a Commission on the Consequences of Devolution for the House of Commons. It is important to point out that the panel, which will be chaired by Sir William McKay, a former Clerk of the House, comprises six independent, non-partisan experts. There is no question over party balance in this. With regard to the consequences for the House of Lords, I am conscious that, although a Scot, I am a Peer of the United Kingdom.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart
Would the Government support a broad-based British organised public discussion of the United Kingdom, in the manner of the Scottish convention, to help inform the debate that should lead to the decision on whether to dismember the United Kingdom? Is it not critically important that people’s opinions are sought not just in a snap decision but having had an extensive discussion in which they can all be involved?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I do not think that there is any chance of it being a snap decision. I am very conscious that, in your Lordships’ House, many Lordships bring to bear from their respective experience examples of where Scotland has made a contribution as part of the United Kingdom to the common good of Scotland and of where Scotland has in turn made a valuable contribution to the United Kingdom. In the debates that take place on this I hope that people will be prepared to speak out and show that our shared values are of great importance, and that it would be a backward step to break up our United Kingdom.
Commission for Architecture and the Built Environment (Dissolution) Order 2012
(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Baroness Rawlings
That the draft order laid before the House on 29 November 2011 be approved.
Relevant document: 36th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 16 January.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
(12 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Clement-Jones
Lord Clement-Jones
My Lords, from the outset I should stress that this amendment is strongly supported by the Special Educational Consortium of special needs disability charities. The consortium and I believe that access to a suitable and challenging education is a right for all children, and that parents need to be able to enforce a legal obligation when they are let down by the system. When parents do not have the financial resources to bring an appeal on their own, they should be supported to do so in the interests of justice.
The Government initially consulted on removing legal aid for all appeals against local authority decisions on the provision for children with special educational needs. I welcome the Government’s subsequent decision to retain special educational needs appeals for children of school age within the scope of legal aid. The Government clearly recognise the importance of these children’s entitlement to an appropriate and challenging education. Nevertheless, the Bill as currently drafted will mean that young people with special educational needs who are aged between 16 and 25 will no longer be eligible for legal aid.
The purpose of the amendment is to ensure that young people aged between 16 and 25 with special educational needs continue to be eligible for legal aid when appealing against decisions made about special educational provision. Removing access to legal aid for young people aged 16 to 25 with special educational needs, as the Bill currently does, is inconsistent with the Government’s position on the importance of the rights of young people with SEN and, in particular, with the aims of the SEN and disability Green Paper, Support and Aspiration, of March last year. I very much welcomed the Green Paper, which sought to develop a streamlined system for children from birth to the age of 25. I hope that this is an oversight rather than a deliberate move to exclude these young people with SEN from the scope of legal aid. Surely there is no justification for cutting this off at the age where young people might be transitioning from one educational institution to another, and when some young people with SEN continue to face barriers to getting the support that they need.
For young people with SEN and their families, the transition to adulthood can be a particularly difficult time as support from children’s services falls away and is often not replaced by support from adult services. As the Green Paper recognises, many young people who are disabled or who have SEN can face additional challenges during their teenage years. It states:
“Too often the opportunities and support available to disabled young people and young people with SEN fall short of what they need to make a successful transition to adult life”.
Those words come directly from the Green Paper.
I welcome the Government’s plans to extend support for young people with SEN up to the age of 25 through the proposed education, health and care plans in order to improve the support that young people receive during this difficult transition period. Cutting legal aid for this age group is inconsistent with the rest of government policy in this area. Therefore, I urge Ministers to accept this amendment to ensure that all young people with SEN remain, up to the age of 25, within the scope of legal aid. I beg to move.
Lord Howarth of Newport
My Lords, special educational needs is a particularly tortuous and difficult area of administration and, equally, for negotiation and representation. Young people with special educational needs are almost by definition ill equipped to represent themselves and to handle these difficult challenges on their own behalf. The system, at least in so far as children with special educational needs are concerned, provides very fully developed support, but there is something of a cliff edge beyond the period during which children are eligible for statements. While, admirably, the Government are seeking to improve the structure and quality of provision for special educational needs later on, it seems particularly unfortunate if, in this important area, they are to take away help for the very people they are otherwise seeking to improve their support for. Therefore, I hope that the Minister will find it possible to look sympathetically on the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, which was so well moved by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones.
Baroness Browning
My Lords, I, too, support this amendment. My noble friend has exchanged correspondence with me on this matter. I support the points that have been made on the necessity to take into account the ability to obtain legal aid up to the age of 25, particularly for children with special needs. As my noble friend will be aware, the Young People’s Learning Agency, which took over from the Learning and Skills Council, has an obligation to meet the special needs of those who have not attained 25 years of age. Although the agency is being phased out, a general educational obligation will remain unless this Bill closes that gap. As my noble friend knows, if this is not dealt with, the alternative would be to bring cases under the Disability Discrimination Act, which is a very disruptive route for young people and their carers to have to go down. Therefore, I hope that this is just an anomaly and an oversight between two different government departments and that my noble friend will be able to reassure the House today.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I rise to support Amendment 36 and to speak to Amendment 82ZA. The proposals arising from Amendment 36 are useful and we support them. In doing so, I declare an interest as a governor of a BESD school. Given my experience there, I echo the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, about the need to support young people and their parents as they make the transition to adult life.
Our Amendment 82ZA is concerned primarily with the decision of the Government to remove all areas of education law from the scope of legal aid, with the exception of SEN provision, which we welcome but regret that it does not go far enough.
The Ministry of Justice consultation paper says that education cases cannot be accorded the same level of importance as those concerning an,
“immediate threat to life or safety, liberty”,
or protection against homelessness. Yet education is a basic human right and is one of the key children’s rights in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. We now know beyond doubt that without access to an appropriate education, children from poor backgrounds or with SEN are more likely than their peers to end up in the youth justice system and be significantly greater social and financial burdens to the state for the rest of their lives. It is therefore a false economy to cut proper assistance and representation across this sector.
The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)
My Lords, I welcome this debate and in particular thank my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones for introducing an important amendment that would seek to make a change to paragraph 2 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 to the Bill. This is the paragraph that brings special educational needs within the scope of the new scheme.
The Government, in response to our consultation on this package of reforms, recognised the compelling arguments that stakeholders made concerning special educational needs cases. As a result, we altered our position on special educational needs, which has been recognised in the contributions to the debate. The Bill included provision for these cases when it was published.
Our intention is to cover all matters that can legitimately be classed as special educational needs issues. It has been brought to our attention by stakeholders, particularly the Special Educational Consortium, that the current wording in paragraph 2 does not cover all SEN matters—in particular, learning difficulty assessments under the Learning and Skills Act 2000 for 16 to 25 year-olds. My noble friend and others made a very compelling case on that point. Although I have no reason to doubt the drafting skills of my noble friends, I hope that they will understand if I do not accept their amendment at this time. The focus on Section 140 of the 2000 Act would include Wales only. That might be because of the hand of my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford—that is no criticism—but I can assure the Committee that my officials are working closely with the Department for Education to ensure that the issue that noble Lords have raised is addressed and that the contents of paragraph 2 encompass all SEN matters. I assure noble Lords that the Government in principle accept the point and that we will table a technical amendment on Report to ensure that SEN matters are fully within the Bill’s scope.
The noble Lord, Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, spoke to Amendment 82ZA, which, as he indicated, would bring into scope all education matters not already covered by Schedule 1. As he said, we have retained legal aid for any education case that involves a contravention of the Equality Act 2010, such as cases concerning disability discrimination, and current legal aid funding for appeals on special educational needs matters, as we have just discussed. We have also retained legal aid for education judicial reviews.
In practice, the amendment would retain legal aid for all education matters, including advice on admissions and exclusion decisions and for educational negligence damage claims, and would mean lost savings of approximately £1 million. The judgment that we have had to make has been to prioritise funding on the most important education cases, which are special educational needs, discrimination and judicial review. We believe that those are of the highest priority, and that advice on, for example, admissions, exclusions and damages claims are not. Of course, those are not unimportant, but where parents are not satisfied with an admissions refusal they can appeal to an independent panel. That requires them to set out in writing why they disagree with the admissions decision, and why they think that the admissions arrangements have not been followed correctly. Those are not usually legal arguments, and the local authority choice adviser can assist parents and attend the appeal hearing with them.
Parents who wish to challenge a temporary or permanent exclusion may do so by writing a letter to the school governors, setting out their reasons for challenging the exclusion. Again, if they are unhappy with the decision permanently to exclude their child, they can appeal—currently to an independent appeal panel, but from September this year to an independent review panel. The Department for Education will fund the Children’s Legal Centre to provide advice to parents on appeals to the independent review panel both online and through a telephone advice line.
Parents can also appeal to the First-tier Tribunal if the appeal concerns disability discrimination, and legal aid is being retained for advice and assistance in such cases. Advice is also available on admission and exclusion matters, although I recognise that the organisations involved, such as the Advisory Centre for Education and the Children’s Legal Centre, face the same difficulties as others in the current financial climate.
The other tier or category is education negligence claims, which have been excluded from scope, along with most other damages claims, because we do not consider that claims for money will generally be of the highest priority. We have therefore focused legal aid only on money claims that concern a significant breach of human rights or abuse of position or power by a public authority, an abuse of a child or vulnerable adult, or sexual assault. The vast majority of education negligence claims will not fall under one of these three headings and will be removed from scope. For many meritorious cases, a conditional fee agreement will provide a suitable alternative funding arrangement.
I have heard my noble friend Lord McNally say from this Dispatch Box on a number of occasions that very difficult tough choices have had to be made on these issues and that there has had to be prioritisation. We believe that we have focused resources on education cases of the highest priority. I hope that the House will recognise that, and I urge my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Clement-Jones
My Lords, I propose simply to respond on Amendment 36, so if those on the opposition Front Bench wish to respond on Amendment 82ZA, I shall briefly pause. I see that they do not.
First, I should have declared an interest as the president of Ambitious about Autism, the education and special needs charity for autistic children. I know that both it and the Special Educational Consortium will be delighted by the Minister's response. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, and the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, for their contributions. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, used a very felicitous phrase, “something of a cliff edge”, about the 16-to-25 period. Of course, the experience of the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, in this area is enormous, and I particularly welcome her contribution.
I very much welcome the Minister’s response and the fact that he has recognised the compelling arguments that have been made to him and to the Department for Education not only for the phase up to 16 but for the 16 to 25 year-old phase. I recognise that the amendment might not be fully technically correct but it might cover other sections—Section 139A is a possibility—that may need to be covered in the drafting.
I think that many noble Lords around the Committee are hoping that this is but the first swallow of summer as we progress through the Bill, but I am very content with the response today and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
“( ) Civil legal services provided to an adult (“B”) in relation to a court hearing in a matter arising out of a family relationship between B and another individual (“A”) where B has abused A or there is the risk of such abuse and where the court certifies that due to the probability of cross-examination of A there is a need for both parties to be represented at that hearing.”
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, this is the first of a group of amendments relating to domestic violence. Some of them overlap and are repetitive but they all have the same desire at their core—that the Government should listen a little more carefully to the very real concerns of many people about the incidence of domestic violence and the fact that the Bill, if not improved, may do a lot of damage to extremely vulnerable people.
I have also put my name to Amendments 45, 46 and 48. Amendment 42 relates to a situation where a woman alleges domestic violence against a man and he is not represented. He will therefore be asking her questions about the abuse which she says he has perpetrated. If that abuse has occurred, it will be an extremely painful experience for her to undergo that questioning without the intervention of a lawyer. I well remember the Minister pointing out on Monday that judges are there to keep matters in order. I can only say to him that that is not entirely easy because there is a right of cross-examination and any defendant has a right to put his or—sometimes a woman is an abuser—her case to the person making the allegations. Therefore, as I know from experience, the judge’s ability to stop the sort of questions that will be asked will be quite limited. Some of those questions will have to be asked, but being questioned by the man who has committed the sometimes very serious domestic violence is in itself a form of abuse against the woman; as I said, occasionally a man is the victim.
I hope that the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, will be speaking to Amendments 45, 46 and 48, so I shall make only one or two brief points about them. I notice that Amendment 44 is very similar to Amendment 45, although our amendment is slightly broader. The definition of domestic violence currently proposed is, in my view and I think the view of many others, inadequate and requires to be much broader, particularly in relation to threatening behaviour and psychological behaviour. Some men drive their wives or their partners almost to suicide by never putting a finger on them; in many ways, psychological and threatening behaviour is even more dangerous and even more debilitating than the man who returns home drunk on Saturday night and knocks his wife around but who does not ill treat her from Sunday to Saturday. Psychological abuse is usually daily and nightly and, therefore, it requires a rather broader interpretation.
Lord Macdonald of River Glaven
My Lords, I wish to speak to Amendments 43 and 44, to which I have attached my name, and to a part of the group which focuses on the question of domestic violence and the way in which the Bill approaches domestic violence.
The history of the justice system and domestic violence is not a very happy one. For many years, crimes within the home were hardly regarded as the business of the state; they were, in the rather grim phrase, “domestics”—issues to be sorted out as best as they could be between the parties. Of course, the problem was that the parties were very rarely equal. Children, who are often the most damaged victims, are the least equal of all. In all the years that I was a prosecutor, I saw the effects and consequences of that injustice. At its most brutal, I dealt with a startling number of women who had been murdered by their partners, and who had repeatedly been victims of persistent and escalating assault. In too many cases, those assaults had gone completely unpunished and undetected and they were allowed to escalate into killing. It would be difficult to imagine a worse failure of law enforcement policy.
When I was the DPP, the prosecution service and the police, notably aided and encouraged by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, when she was a distinguished Attorney-General, spent a great deal of time on this issue, as she knows. We did research, we spoke to victims and to experts, and we educated ourselves, prosecutors and police officers. The most important lesson that we learnt was that the signals sent out by victims of domestic violence can be confused and difficult to read. Sometimes they have to be decoded and understanding that was the key to all the reforms that we undertook. Of course, people in these situations do not send out confusing signals or sometimes behave in ways that are, for us, counterintuitive because they are necessarily lying, but the complex human relationships that are in play do not always allow for a rational train of evidence, so the police and we as prosecutors had to think differently and imaginatively about this category of crime. The Government also have to do that.
At the most basic level, a woman who has been beaten up does not always come forward to make an official complaint, but the absence of a complaint is not evidence that a crime has not occurred. The British Crime Survey tells us that up to 25 per cent of women have experienced domestic violence, but the numbers coming forward are far below that: indeed, on the Bar Council's figures from another survey, only 16 per cent of victims of domestic violence come forward.
The truth is that an abused woman will not always report her assailant to the police. Often, she will not. If she does, she will not always support a prosecution. Often she will not; often she will return home to face more violence. No doubt sometimes she has children who want their father. Sometimes he is the breadwinner and she fears destitution without him. Sometimes she may simply continue to love him in some way that draws her back. As prosecutors, we learnt not to take the behaviour of victims of domestic abuse at face value. We learnt that we had to get beyond those responses if we were to get the assailant. That was the key: to get beyond the responses. The result was that prosecutions of domestic abusers rose dramatically, as did the rates of conviction. This was painstaking work and it would be a very great shame to see any of it undone.
Which of the lessons that we learnt have the drafters of the Bill learnt? The answer is: not enough of them. Frankly, in their understanding of domestic violence, the proposed legal aid reforms could have been written 10 or 15 years ago. It is a matter of great regret that a Bill presented by the coalition Government of which my party is a member appears to step backwards in expecting victims of domestic violence to conform to a stereotype of conduct, so that they will not be believed, their gateway will be shut and they will not get legal aid. This risks condemning many victims of domestic violence to a future with little or no legal succour. It is a policy with which the Government should not be associated.
In essence, the Government have done the right thing in Schedule 1 by retaining legal aid in private family law cases where domestic violence is present, but have done the wrong thing by requiring categories of evidence to support the existence of domestic violence that are very commonly absent, such as a criminal conviction, a finding of court and so on. So often, the victims of this sort of conduct seek advice and help from sources other than the authorities.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Has the noble Lord made representations to this effect? If so, what has been the reply?
Lord Macdonald of River Glaven
I am certain that the points that I and other noble Lords made were carefully considered by the Government, who I hope will continue to consider the points. My point was that frequently victims of domestic violence seek support other than from the authorities, for obvious reasons; they seek it from doctors, support organisations, social services and the like. Material from these sources should be acceptable as evidence for the purposes of the legal aid gateway.
We can dress up the Government’s present scheme in any way we like, but the reality is that the legal aid budget will reduce as a direct result of the reluctance of many victims of intimate domestic violence to expose themselves and their children to the threat of more abuse by identifying and reporting their assailant to the authorities. That is unacceptable. Of course, we all hope that victims will come forward and seek protection for themselves and their children. It is important to give them every encouragement to do so. However, often they will not, and if they do not they should not be denied legal aid for that reason.
The Government's justification for the Bill's approach is, if anything, less attractive than its substance: namely, that we need a conviction or some other officially reported evidence of abuse in case women are tempted to make up allegations of assault in order to get legal aid. This is a rather depressing reinterpretation of the old stereotype of the woman who cries rape. Of course, women very occasionally invent allegations of rape but, in my experience both as a defence counsel and as chief prosecutor, these cases are exceedingly rare and very heavily outnumbered by cases in which the woman has been attacked. A vast and overwhelming number of women do not invent the attacks that have been visited on them. Domestic abuse is real and far too widespread, as I know the Secretary of State and the Minister realise and understand.
It is particularly difficult to understand why the definition of domestic violence in this Bill is different from and, on any analysis, narrower than the definition used by ACPO and the Crown Prosecution Service in detecting and prosecuting these crimes. I hope this is an accident. If it is, let the error be rectified at once. If it is not, let the Government think again. What possible justification can there be for this Bill to contain a definition of domestic violence that offers less protection to the victims of domestic violence than the definition used successfully day in and day out by our law enforcement agencies? If that is the reality, as I believe it is, this definition has no place in this Bill.
I accept that the legal aid budget must reduce. It is for this reason that I am able to support, as the Minister knows, many of the reforms proposed by the Government. Indeed, I have no problem at all with some of the more controversial proposals, including competitive tendering for criminal legal aid, although this does not make me very popular with many of my professional colleagues, but I have a major problem—
Lord Scott of Foscote
Can the noble Lord help me on one point? I think I understand well what psychological, physical, sexual or emotional abuse might consist of, but I find it very difficult to see what the adjective “financial” adds to a case where none of those elements is present.
Lord Macdonald of River Glaven
One can imagine a category of abuse that is primarily financial. Of course, it could carry in its train some of the other features that the noble and learned Lord has alluded to, but it adds something to the definition of domestic violence. We all know that financial power is an important aspect of the power relationship that can exist between men and women, particularly, as he indicates, women who are being abused in other ways. My view is that the adjective “financial” is an important part of the realistic and modern definition of what can cause and amount to domestic violence.
I have a major problem with an approach that risks rolling back decades of progress in our understanding of a crime that is an absolute scourge, not least in the way that it condemns so many of the children who live with it to disordered and chaotic later lives of their own. Talking of cost, that brings its own very high cost, which all of us have to pay. We must have a system of legal aid that works properly to protect the victims of domestic abuse, understanding that it is money well spent. We must have a Bill with the modern definition of that crime and including provision for those who may be too scared or desperate to call the police. As we all understand, domestic violence brings a cycle of damage and despair that is deeply destructive and anti-social. No Government should ever find themselves on the wrong side of this argument.
Lord Carlile of Berriew
My Lords, I support these amendments. I will particularly refer to Amendment 46. It seems to me that sub-paragraphs (g) (j) and (k) are particularly important. They relate to the less formal types of evidence as opposed to court convictions and the like. These amendments have been eloquently and accurately spoken to by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and my noble friend Lord Macdonald, and I do not want to add too much, apart from a couple of examples. Before I give them, I shall make a point of principle. From my experience as a legal practitioner, it is clear to me that the earlier legal aid is given for the earliest possible intervention, the least harm is likely to be done. I urge the Government to accept that as a very sound principle. I will now give my two illustrations that lead me to that principle.
On one occasion many years ago, when I still practised family law, I was asked to obtain an injunction for a lady from a small town in rural Wales. I was then practising in Chester, and the town in which she lived was about 50 miles west of Chester. She had been driven by various forms of abuse by her husband, some financial—the deprivation of money for daily expenditure for herself and the children, so she could not even buy the children shoes—some emotional and some physical, eventually to go to that daunting place, the local solicitor’s office on the high street. The great solicitor Mr Jones—and he really was called Mr Jones—decided to apply for an injunction, and I was instructed.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, it is a real privilege to follow the last three, very powerful, speeches in support of this series of amendments. For completeness, I declare my interest as the chair of the All-Party Group on Domestic and Sexual Violence, and founder and patron of both the Corporate Alliance Against Domestic Violence and the Global Foundation for the Elimination of Domestic Violence.
I am particularly grateful to follow those three powerful speeches because your Lordships have had a taste of the different elements that participate in the criminal and civil justice process to bring relief and succour to victims of domestic violence. Those elements are the experience of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, as a judge and previous president of the Family Division; the experience of the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, in his sterling work dealing with these issues while he had the privilege of being our Director of Public Prosecutions; and, of course, the wealth of experience of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile.
I do not propose to reiterate everything that they have said about the nature of domestic violence but it is important for us to remember that it can affect one in four women in our country and one in six men, and that the secondary victims of domestic violence are the children in those families. Between 750,000 and 900,000 children in the United Kingdom are adversely affected by domestic violence. Tragically, we see them overrepresented in every indices of dysfunction, whether it is alcoholism, mental illness, criminality or lack of educational and physical milestones being met. The breadth of domestic violence has been well understood.
To say a word in response to a question about financial violence from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scott of Foscote, regrettably—as the Minister will know from his own readings of this subject—financial violence can often be the tool used to restrict a woman and a victim’s movement, and to impose on them situations which cause them physical and emotional harm. Having no money, being controlled and being restricted can have a very deleterious effect.
What the noble Lords, Lord Macdonald and Lord Carlile, have said is correct about the way in which we have learnt about domestic violence. Over the past 30 years, the learning has come, regrettably, at the cost of listening to victims who have suffered from the mistakes that we made in the past; namely, our inability to understand or to respond in a holistic and joined-up way.
The work that has been done, not least in this House by Members and elsewhere, has enhanced our understanding and the definition in Amendment 45, which is tabled in my name, that of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester and the noble Lord, Lord Blair, is not innovative. It is the accepted definition of domestic violence used on a day-to-day basis by courts, prosecutors, advocates, third-party non-governmental organisations, individuals and elsewhere. The way in which that definition has been crafted has been influenced by the experience culled over a period of 30 years.
Before this Bill, there was never any suggestion that any amendment of that definition was immediately necessary to prevent people taking advantage of it in a way that was not proper. As the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, has said, the real issue that has troubled many of us is how we persuade and enable those who are in need of the succour that can be provided to come forward, not how we stop them making false allegations. That problem has been alleviated but not expunged. We still have to encourage. Regrettably, 89 per cent of repeat victims of domestic violence happen to be women. One in six is a man. It is a lower level but they tend not to be repeat victims, so the problem remains.
The definition adopted by the Association of Chief Police Officers has served us well. I do not for a moment suggest that the Government are not committed to alleviating domestic violence. The fact that the Government have excluded domestic violence victims from the general legal aid ban on family law is important. I acknowledge that immediately and we should applaud it. I know that the Minister’s colleague in another place, Mr Djanogly, said in terms:
“If domestic violence is involved, the Government believe that legal aid should be provided”.—[Official Report, Commons, 31/10/11; col. 638.]
We say to the Minister today that, in order to fulfil that acknowledged commitment, the definition used in the Bill has to be changed and should reflect the accepted definition which has been used on a day-to-day basis by everyone. If it is not, we run the risk of excluding about 46 per cent of the domestic violence victims who are currently eligible for legal aid.
What the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, said was absolutely right: we need prevention and early intervention. We have been encouraging victims to come not when they reach the stage of being a high-risk victim on the multi -agency risk assessment Richter scale, because, quite frankly, that is sometimes almost too late. To satisfy that high-risk criterion, victims have to be at risk of death or grievous bodily harm. We have encouraged victims to seek appropriate intervention and relief at an early stage, when there is a punch, a kick or a push, and that has started to happen. We are winning on that. The Minister will know that, since 2003, when we jointly started to look at this issue in a more concentrated manner, we have reduced domestic violence according to all the figures by 64 per cent and have saved—I know how important is the economic cost at this moment of real austerity—£7.5 billion a year. That is a real saving and we in this country now know how to deliver it.
A key component of that early intervention and reduction in economic costs was, and always has been, the availability of legal aid for victims who need it. By intervening early, we have reduced the level of deaths. The noble Lord also knows that, if we are dealing with a murder investigation, it will cost the state at least £1 million from interdiction to conviction. If children are involved, we can be looking at £2 million per case. One has only to do very simple maths to work out that failure to give legal aid at a judicious moment will cost us far more in the long term than giving it early and allowing, quite often, the woman and her children to have appropriate protection, because the damage that is done to children can affect them for the rest of their lives.
The Lord Bishop of Chichester
Before the noble and learned Baroness sits down, could she help me just a little? On Amendment 45, it does seem to me that relying upon a known, approved and accepted definition is clearly right. Of course I accept that, for all the very powerful reasons that have been given. However, since this was crafted, we have got a lot more experience in respect of other kinds of domestic abuse, in particular that of the elderly. We have become very aware recently of the danger to people in care homes but not quite aware enough of the possibility of domestic violence against the elderly as well. Although it is probably too late to bring this into the Bill, could she help me in pressing the Minister to respond as to whether, where it says at the end,
“regardless of gender or sexuality”,
we ought to assume “regardless of age, gender or sexuality”?
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, that is right. We tend to think of familial violence as violence within a family group and people living together in partnership. Regrettably, the right reverend Prelate is right in saying that age does not prohibit violence—domestic violence is no respecter of persons, irrespective of age, ethnicity, economic background or any dividing issue one can think of. Regrettably, domestic violence affects everyone, and this definition, which has been used, continues to be efficacious and would include those issues.
I should also say that of course the Government themselves have been undertaking a review of domestic violence strategy. In part of that strategy, the definition is being considered and, from what I understand of the consultation, they are seeking to widen the net and not restrict it. That is why these provisions are so concerning and—I have to say—utterly surprising. If there was one area in which I did not believe that there would be any dissent at all among the parties or any of our Benches, it would have been this. So there is deep concern and surprise but also bitter disappointment that we are having this debate.
Lord McNally
My Lords, the other evening I said that a smile always came to my face when the noble and learned Baroness reached the Dispatch Box. I think there is usually an exception, and that is when you are in the firing line from her formidable advocacy.
The noble and learned Baroness put her finger on it when she said that domestic violence has its impact on every index of dysfunction in our society. I think that we all accept and understand that. My noble friend Lord Macdonald made the point in acknowledging that the Government have from the very beginning, as the noble and learned Baroness said in quoting my honourable friend Jonathan Djanogly, intended to put domestic violence within scope.
This debate is about whether we have got the definition right. Obviously in discussing that, I have to take into account the comments of a former President of the Family Division, a former Director of Public Prosecutions, a former Attorney-General with considerable lateral experience as well in these matters, and even my noble friend Lord Carlile, who in this case is just an honest jobbing barrister. Obviously, if one gets that weight of evidence, we go back and look carefully at what has been said. I did not realise that this Government were so radical, as was suggested by the query of the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis. Of course, I have talked to my noble friends and have tried in the course of the Bill to be available to Members on all sides of the House. However, as I said at an earlier stage, I am trying to use this Committee stage to listen and to take on board and match our aspirations for the Bill with the experience and wisdom that we receive in Committee to see whether there are areas in which we will make changes when we get to Report, or areas where we simply say to the House that we simply disagree. The spirit is one of listening.
I agree with the noble and learned Baroness that it should be a matter of cross-party co-operation to deal with this scourge of domestic violence. I visited Holloway Prison and was taken to see an ongoing programme of training and educational skills for girls. I went around talking to a number of them. The lady who showed me round suddenly said something that really chilled me. I said, “This seems to be working very well”. She said, “Yes, of course, but you know these girls are probably in the safest place that they have ever been in their lives”. So please do not think that our approach is either frivolous or without concern for the very real problems that domestic violence causes. Again, in a phrase that was used by my noble friend Lord Macdonald, it is certainly not our intention to roll back the decades of progress.
Lord Carlile of Berriew
Before my noble friend moves on from that point, can he go a little further in answering the issue raised by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, about cross-examination? Yes, of course the judge has power to limit inappropriate cross-examination, but the judge cannot prevent the person concerned putting their case, and putting it fully and properly. That is the issue that the noble and learned Baroness is trying to deal with. It is in that situation that the allegedly abused person faces real anguish, and in which the protection of the judge is but a very small instrument.
Lord McNally
I will take this back but, again, I am speaking as a layman to professionals. As far as I understand it, there are increasingly ways in the courts of preventing that kind of face-to-face, aggressive cross-examination. I think that there was a case recently which caused a good deal of public comment and distress. I will take the matter away and take further advice but, as I say, both my impression as a layman and the advice that I have are that there are safeguards to prevent that kind of brutal, face-to-face, intimidating cross-examination. I hear what my noble friend says and I will take further advice on the matter.
I turn to Amendments 43, 44, 45, 46 and 48 and start by reiterating why we are taking most private family law cases out of the scope of legal aid. The cost of legal aid as it stands is, we believe, simply unsustainable, and legal aid resources need to be focused on those cases where legal aid is most needed. Accordingly, for most divorces, child contact applications or ancillary relief applications to divide family assets, legal aid will no longer be available. We believe that it is right to encourage families, where appropriate, to resolve their disputes without going to court. We want to prioritise mediation, which can be cheaper, quicker and less acrimonious than contested court proceedings. Legal aid will therefore remain available for mediation in private law family cases. We estimate that we will spend some extra £10 million a year on mediation, taking the total to £25 million a year.
We accept, however, that mediation might not be suitable in every case—particularly, as we made clear, in cases involving domestic violence. It is important to remember that the inclusion of this provision is to ensure that legal aid remains available for private family law cases where there is evidence of domestic violence, creating a disadvantage for one party, and cases where a child is at risk of abuse.
Amendments 44 and 45 would put in paragraph 10 of Schedule 1 to the Bill, in place of the existing definition of abuse, parts of the definition of domestic violence first used by the Association of Chief Police Officers but subsequently more widely adopted for operational purposes—although not, it should be noted, by the courts. The existing definition of abuse used in the Bill is a broad and comprehensive one, having been drafted deliberately and explicitly so as not to be limited to physical violence. It should be noted that it is used elsewhere in Schedule 1: in paragraph 3, which provides for legal aid to be available in relation to the abuse of a child or vulnerable adult, and paragraph 11, which provides for legal aid to be available for a person seeking an order to protect a child at risk of abuse.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
I hope that the Minister will forgive me for interrupting him. Can he explain what is wrong with the ACPO definition and why it is preferred to have a different definition, twice to be found in the Bill but not to be found elsewhere? As far as I know, there has been no broad definition by the judges of domestic abuse, which has been referred to in all its various forms. I am absolutely certain that the courts accept the ACPO definition.
Lord McNally
I will write on this matter, but I think that here the noble and learned Baroness is wrong. As far as I understand it, the Supreme Court did not accept the ACPO definition of domestic violence. If the noble and learned Baroness will bear with me, I will come to that point in the brief—there is a part that deals with this.
Any consideration of the definition in one paragraph should not be undertaken entirely in isolation from the others, lest confusion should result. The definition should also be seen in the light of the Bill’s structure and the purpose of the paragraph where it appears.
I want to know—“like most normal people”, I was going to say—why on earth, if there is a perfectly good ACPO definition, we do not use it. The Supreme Court held that domestic violence could extend to psychological abuse but did not adopt the ACPO definition. However, the majority of the court indicated approval of the approach of what is now Practice Direction 12J, supporting the Family Procedure Rules 2010. For its purposes, it defines domestic violence as,
“physical violence, threatening or intimidating behaviour and any other form of abuse which, directly or indirectly, may have caused harm to the other party or to the child or which may give rise to the risk of harm”.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
Was that not a case in which the Supreme Court was being asked to determine whether a specific aspect of emotional abuse was to be included so that someone could get relief and, in so doing, referring to that aspect rather than any other? Could the noble Lord tell the Committee to which case he is referring?
Lord McNally
If I am misleading the Committee in any way in this exchange, I will of course write and correct it. The Supreme Court did not adopt the ACPO definition of domestic violence in the Yemshaw case. If the noble and learned Baroness questions me any more, she will go way above my pay grade in terms of the law.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
One of my colleagues has just suggested that maybe the noble Lord is in need of a little legal aid.
Lord McNally
Every time I look up, the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, is speaking somewhere in the Chamber. The Opposition are overworking the man—give him the night off.
The definition should also be seen in the light of the Bill’s structure and purpose. Paragraph 10 reflects the underlying policy of ensuring that a party to private law family proceedings who has been subject to domestic violence by the other party to those proceedings and is likely, as a result of that abuse, to be intimidated or otherwise disadvantaged in presenting his or her case, should have access to legal aid. It does not provide that any individual who has been the subject of, or is at risk of being the subject of, abuse—as defined in that paragraph—will qualify regardless of what evidence of abuse might exist. Not every such individual will be intimidated or otherwise disadvantaged in the way that the paragraph is intended to address.
The paragraph establishes a description of legal services. Whether an individual qualifies for them in any specific case requires not only that the individual falls within the categories in paragraph 10 but that the individual meets the criteria to be established in regulations made under Clause 10. As has been explained in the Government’s response to consultation and in debates on the Bill, those criteria will set out the specific requirements as to the evidence of the fact or risk of abuse. Therefore, the definition of abuse itself is only a preliminary part of the picture. However, it is important that we get it right. I suspect that the Committee will say “hear, hear” to that.
The definition of abuse presently in the Bill embraces mental as well as physical abuse, neglect, maltreatment and exploitation. These references would cover, for example, abusive behaviour relating to family finances—a point that was raised earlier. The definition in the Bill would not exclude from scope any of the types of abuse covered by the definition used by the Association of Chief Police Officers, so this part of the amendment is unnecessary. This could lead to the understandable question of why we do not simply adopt the ACPO definition, given its general recognition. However, the ACPO definition is not set in legislation anywhere and is therefore not permanent, as demonstrated by the recent consultation announced by the Home Office. It could change but legislation would not change with it, at least not without subsequent primary legislation.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
I hesitate to interrupt the noble Lord but can he help me on a point about legal aid being withdrawn from private law cases? He will know that one of the main ways of there being a finding of fact is through those private law situations. If there is an impecunious litigant, can he help me as to how that litigant—normally a woman—is going to get those findings of fact if she does not have legal aid to do so? That is one issue.
Secondly, has the noble Lord seen or read the recent survey by Women’s Aid, Rights of Women and Welsh Women’s Aid that found that the majority of respondents did not report abuse the first time it occurred but typically did so after being assaulted between three and five times? Although 99 per cent had reported at least one incident to the police and/or the police had attended an incident, only 8.3 per cent would be able to prove that they had had an ongoing criminal proceeding in the previous 12 months. There seem to be a lot of practical difficulties and I wonder whether the noble Lord can help the Committee in relation to those matters.
Lord McNally
The Welsh Women’s Aid report has been published very recently and we will look carefully at it. I should point out that the organisation surveyed women who are in receipt of domestic violence services rather than women who are seeking legal aid for private family matters. It is a distinction but it means that the survey may not fully square with the issues that we are looking it. We know that this latter group will often, for example, seek a domestic violence injunction at the same time as they take their private family law action, and thereby will qualify for legal aid. None the less, we will look closely at this matter and I will perhaps write to the noble and learned Baroness on her other point.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I do not by any means want to harry the noble Lord but, given what he said about the need for flexibility and certainty, will he consider putting all the evidential issues into the schedule and providing us with an amendment we can look at? Perhaps we could have something such as an affirmative resolution in relation to these issues, which would give us flexibility—if that is what the Government think would be necessary—and clarity as to what evidence would acceptable. I am making a suggestion to the noble Lord that I will not necessarily be bound by, but I just want him to think about it.
Lord McNally
I will very happily think about it and I naturally assume that the noble and learned Baroness is trying to help me. I am very grateful for that. This reply and this whole debate will need to be looked at to see whether we are achieving our real objectives of getting something that is fit for purpose—although I hate using that phrase—in terms of addressing a matter of genuine concern right across the House. There are no differences on this and I freely admit that I do not have the noble and learned Baroness’s detailed experience of these matters. I hope that she will accept that I share her commitment that we get this right.
It may be helpful to give some idea of the prevalence of those forms of evidence. About 24,100 domestic violence orders were made in 2010; about 74,000 domestic violence crimes were prosecuted in 2009-10; and there were 53,000 domestic violence convictions. About 43,000 victims of domestic violence were referred to multi-risk assessment conferences in the 12 months up to June 2010. Clearly, those numbers will overlap to a certain extent but, to compare, the Legal Services Commission funded legal representation in about 69,000 private family law cases in 2009-10, not including legal aid for protective injunctions. The forms of evidence we intend to accept will meet a very high standard of objectivity. We are concerned that many of the additional forms of evidence suggested in the amendments would rely on the word of those involved and provide an incentive to make allegations where none presently exists. However, I also heard what both the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, and the noble and learned Baroness said.
Let me be clear. We are not questioning the integrity of genuine victims. However, during the legal aid consultation, concerns were expressed about providing an incentive for unfounded allegations. Accepting self-reporting without objective evidence would prevent us from focusing assistance on those victims of domestic violence who would be unable effectively to present their case against the other party because of the history or risk of abuse by that party. Both amendments referred to evidence from professionals in a variety of roles. We have widened our criteria, so that legal aid will be available where the victim has been referred to a multi-agency risk assessment conference as a high-risk victim of domestic violence, and a plan has been put in place to protect them from violence by the other party. Those referrals can be made by a range of professionals. Further, a finding of fact in the court that domestic violence has occurred will trigger legal aid and the court will be able to assess any relevant evidence.
Amendment 48 would prevent a time limit applying to any evidence. We have already said that a 12-month period, where relevant, will apply, but we consider that 12 months will be an appropriate period to protect victims and enable them to deal with their private law issue. The point made by the noble and learned Baroness about an intervening prison sentence would not interfere with that rule. If the criteria were to rise again—for instance, if a second protective injunction is made—the period would start again. It is also important to remember that legal aid will remain available for exceptional out-of-scope cases where the failure to provide such funding would amount to a breach of an individual’s right under the European Convention on Human Rights, in particular Article 6.
This has been one of the most important debates on the Bill because, as all those who have contributed said, it is essential that we get this right. There have been some very well informed and committed speeches. I have put on record the Government's approach, which is to get it right on domestic violence and the legal aid that we provide to those who are subject to it. With that, I hope that the noble and learned Baroness and others will not press the amendments today but allow me to go away, study the debate and the proposals made, match the commitment that we all share to what is in the Bill and return to the matter on Report.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, I thank all those who, with a great deal of knowledge, have contributed to this important and anxious debate. It is obvious that the Government are entirely committed to doing their best to combat domestic violence, so the only issue between the various speakers in the debate has been the best way to achieve it in the legislation before the Committee.
I am very grateful to the Minister for his obvious concern, and I hope that he will go away and think about what those of us with some knowledge of these matters have said. If I may respectfully say so, it is equally important that the Lord Chancellor reads and takes account of what has been said.
Lord McNally
That can be taken as implied. I assure the noble and learned Baroness that when I tell him who has spoken and what they have said, he will listen. Taking up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, it is not that we do not talk to each other; we are following the process of the Bill. I am grateful that the Committee is taking this approach, as we can look at the arguments that have been made and think very hard about the issue before Report. I assure the noble and learned Baroness that when I say that I shall be taking the matter away, I mean that I shall be taking it back to the Lord Chancellor.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
I thank the Minister. I found it absolutely irresistible to say that. Each of the points that we have been dealing with is important but two of them are particularly so. The first is the definition. I think that we might all do more work in looking at the definition—in particular, by accepting the Minister’s invitation to see whether the wording in Schedule 1, as he has explained it, really does meet the ACPO requirements. If it does not, we should ask why not, and to what degree it does not meet them.
The second point is the very important list in Amendment 46. With respect, I would adopt the suggestion of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, that these formulae for triggering legal aid in domestic violence should be in the schedule. As I understand it, the Minister’s alternative suggestion is that they should be in the regulations. It would be enormously helpful, before Report, to have a rough draft of what the regulations are likely to provide so that we may know that what we are all worried about will be found in them. The Merits of Statutory Instruments Committee, of which I am a member, is all too well aware that a statutory instrument either comes in or goes out. There is absolutely no possibility of amending it unless the government department is prepared to take it back and rewrite it. It would be much better if we knew in advance what was going to be in the regulations, rather than having to attack a statutory instrument at a later stage, which is always an unhappy situation. However, as I said, I am personally very comforted by what the Minister has said.
I want to make one point about Amendment 42. I suggest that the advice that the Minister receives is theoretical rather than practical and on the ground. I wonder whether any of those who have given him advice about what goes in court appreciates that a defendant always has the right to put his case. That is the point that I made in my preliminary observations and it was a point also made by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. The judge cannot stop that, but it can be a real extension of the domestic violence. I pursued that matter because one has to bear it in mind. Judges can ameliorate the position but they cannot prevent the defendant having the right to put his case. If he does not have that right before the judge, he can appeal to the Court of Appeal and ultimately to Strasbourg under the articles of the convention. Therefore, human rights apply to the defendant as well as to the victim. That is the problem and it is why legal support for the defendant would be a protection for the victim. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
““abuse” means any incident or repeated incidents of threatening behaviour, violence or abuse (whether psychological, physical, sexual, financial or emotional, and including acts of neglect, maltreatment, exploitation or acts of omission) between adults who are or have been intimate partners or family members, regardless of gender or sexuality;”
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
I shall not move Amendments 45 and 46, but I can reassure the noble Lord that, if his efforts prove to be unfruitful, we shall certainly be back.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
“( ) Civil legal services provided to an individual who has, or it is alleged will, put the child at risk of abuse in relation to a court hearing in a matter in relation to the orders and procedures set out in sub-paragraph (1), and where the court certifies that due to the probability of cross-examination there is a need for them to be represented in that hearing.”
Baroness Butler-Sloss
This is another aspect of a situation in which the possible perpetrator, unrepresented, cross-examines a witness. The Minister said in respect of an adult victim of domestic violence that they would not necessarily be the most vulnerable of the people who come before the courts. The amendment relates to the most vulnerable because it relates to the pretty unusual, but not absolutely exceptional, situation in which a child has made allegations against the father not in a public law case but in a private law case. Norgrove, in the family justice review, underlines the fact that a proportion of abuse cases come through the private law sector. In that sort of case, the father has the right—it could be the mother, although generally it is the father—to cross-examine the child if the child is making the allegations and comes to court. If the father cross-examines the child about the abuse that the child has said he or she has suffered at the hands of the father, that is a further form of abuse of a really appalling kind. It would be rare and there would be very little expense. It would happen only where the judge said that the child has to give evidence—in most cases children do not give evidence—and only where the father wanted to ask the child questions.
Again, the father or the mother who is accused of abuse has the right to put the case to the child that it is not true. This can be done by a lawyer. It is upsetting for a child, but it can be done with a considerable degree of discretion. It is done very regularly in the criminal courts by barristers and solicitors, many of whom have had training in how to ask questions. What on earth would the Minister think of an eight or nine year-old who is able to explain very clearly what has happened to him or her being cross-examined by the father about the intimate allegations of how the father has behaved? I beg to move.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
I support the noble and learned Baroness in this matter. She is absolutely right that these cases are rare, but unfortunately they tend to be the most painful. The opportunity for the judge who is managing such a case to be able, if he or she thinks it appropriate, to invite legal representation for that part of the case, and there being legal aid available for the judge to so invite, may be extremely important. It is very unlikely that this avenue would be used very often, but I respectfully suggest that it would be important, in support of what the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, says, for that opportunity to be available for the better protection of the child, whose best interests would in those circumstances of course be paramount.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I do not want to get into a situation where I take things away and give the impression that the case has been made. However, again, I must listen to a former president of the Family Division and a former Attorney-General when they say that there is a problem. The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said that my advisers cannot have much experience of what happens in court. I can only say that our position is based on the assumption that judges are able to manage their cases in such a way as to prevent the kind of confrontation that we are concerned with here.
I will go away and take further advice on this. It has been examined in the other place. I do not want to leave a situation where very rare cases are not covered. On the other hand, we do not want automatically to extend funding to alleged perpetrators because that is not our line of travel as we try to focus aid on the most vulnerable and needy. It would be a mistake to assume that the only means of protecting a prospective witness, however vulnerable or young, is to fund representation for the prospective questioner. However, the two noble and learned Baronesses speak from considerable experience. I will test that experience with my advisers. If the noble and learned Baroness will withdraw her amendment, I will either reassure her before Report or we will come back to this then.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
I am very grateful for the support and experience of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland. As a distinguished former family practitioner she knows exactly what I have been talking about. There are only two former family judges in the Chamber at the moment: the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, and me. He has just indicated that he agrees with me, in particular that a judge could not protect a child where the father or mother had the right of cross-examination in order to put his or her case. That is the problem. It is rare. Therefore, dealing with it would be very inexpensive. It might happen once or twice a year at most, and the judge would be required to certify the case. Judges will be well aware that legal aid is not to be easily given. They will be well aware that to certify a case would be very unusual. However, the situation exists and children require protection. I am grateful to the Minister for saying that he will at least take away the matter and think about it. No doubt he, and all of us, should have great respect for his advisers, but they do not understand the rights of defendants quite as well as those of victims. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
“Best interests of patients16A Civil legal services provided in relation to any question whether particular medical treatment is in the best interests of a person who is incapable of giving or withholding consent to such treatment.
Exclusions16B Paragraph 16A is subject to the exclusions in Parts 2 and 3 of this Schedule.
Definitions16C For the purposes of this paragraph “medical treatment” has the same meaning as in the Mental Health Act 1983.”
Lord Thomas of Gresford
My Lords, the amendment was suggested by the Bar Council to put a particular issue into scope. It refers to:
“Civil legal services provided in relation to any question whether particular medical treatment is in the best interests of a person who is incapable of giving or withholding consent to such treatment”.
It arises out of a case called Re M, which was heard very recently by Mr Justice Baker. It was a case where someone was in a vegetative state, or the equivalent, and the family made application for the withholding of artificial nutrition and hydration from the person concerned. It was one of those terrible cases that one hears about from time to time. The judge made this particular series of observations, which I draw to your Lordships’ attention, in the course of his judgment. He quite deliberately set out observations for future cases. In paragraph 260, he said,
“given the fundamental issues involved in cases involving the withdrawal of ANH, it is alarming to the court that public funding has not been available to members of the family to assist them in prosecuting their application. In the event, the Applicant’s team has acted pro bono throughout the hearing and during much of the very extensive preparation. I stress that this has not caused any disadvantage to the Applicant … the family could not have had better representation. But it is intolerable that the family should have been dependent on the willingness of lawyers to work without remuneration. In this case, the “playing field” was level because of the exceptional generosity of the Applicant’s lawyers. In other cases, members of a family who wished to ask the court to authorise the withdrawal of ANH but did not qualify for means tested public funding may have to appear in person, given the very high costs of litigation. Such a situation would seem to infringe the family’s rights under Article 6 of ECHR. There are many demands on the restricted legal aid budget, but consideration should be given to extending the right to non-means tested public funding to family members seeking to bring this type of application. At present such non-means tested funding is available to parents whose children are the subject of care proceedings under the Children Act 1989. That provision is justified by the fundamental and life-changing consequences which flow from the making of a care order. The same argument applies to applications for the withdrawal of artificial nutrition and hydration”.
Your Lordships will appreciate that these cases unhappily happen from time to time, and when they happen, they exercise the family members, the practitioners and the judge to a very considerable degree. Each case has to be very carefully examined. In this case, the judge refused the application and said that the life of the individual concerned should be allowed to continue. The Bar Council’s proposed amendment would ensure that these cases come within the scope of legal aid, and I invite the Government to make an exception in these rare, but extremely expensive, cases.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, I support this amendment. I declare an earlier interest in that I was the judge who tried nearly all the permanent vegetative state cases for the withdrawal of hydration and nutrition. I never had the case of M, although I very nearly did. In fact, the patient, who was on the verge of being in a permanent vegetative state, died. It is an extremely rare case where it is uncertain whether somebody is in a permanent vegetative state or has minimal consciousness. At the moment, the only decision has been against withdrawing nutrition and hydration. This situation will arise from time to time. It will be very rare. It is intensely distressing for the family and intensely difficult for the doctors and nurses who care for these people who may, or may not, have minimal consciousness. It raises an incredibly important problem as to the point at which the doctors are ordered by the court to withdraw the artificial nutrition and hydration. It is perhaps the most difficult of all decisions that might come before a court. In cases of permanent vegetative state it is nearly always the hospital that brings proceedings, but if a family brings proceedings, or wishes to be part of the proceedings brought by a hospital, it would be very difficult for the family to put forward a case of this extreme difficulty if it had no access to legal aid, particularly with the medical evidence that would be required.
Again, as I said on the previous amendment, this is not going to cost very much money because it is not going to happen very often, but it is a particularly important fallback position. These are terrible cases to try, as I know to my cost.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, on raising this matter and moving an amendment that could greatly assist a family, or others, in the context of the tragic and ethically challenging circumstances that he has so clearly outlined and which the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, has also addressed.
There is another set of circumstances in which the noble Lord’s amendment might well be applicable. While entirely endorsing his amendment on the grounds that he has advanced, I would like to refer to the suggestion of Mind in relation to the occasional need for people in detention under the Mental Health Act to also receive legal advice concerning treatment that may be prescribed for them. The system allows for legal aid to challenge the detention of someone who is being treated in a mental health facility but not in relation to treatment that might be proffered, or indeed insisted upon, by those in whose charge a patient might find himself.
Mind has provided helpful advice to people in detention who are unable to give consent for treatment. I will quote briefly from the document it has produced which is available to those in that position. The document outlines a whole series of things, including the definitions of various matters and persons, and then it asks:
“Can I be treated without giving consent to the treatment?”.
It goes on to say that,
“if … you have the mental capacity … you are generally entitled to refuse it and no undue pressure should be placed on you. However, the law does allow treatment to be given to an adult without consent where the adult lacks the mental capacity needed to give consent and where certain sections of the Mental Health Act apply. If you are experiencing mental distress and are offered treatment, you need to be aware of any legal powers that could be used if you refuse. However, the powers must not be used as threats to coerce you into consenting, and if you feel this is happening”—
this is the crucial point—
“seek independent legal advice and consider making a complaint”.
It suggests discussing concerns with a general practitioner and so on, and goes on to say:
“If you are under 18, the law is complex and it is best to seek specialist legal advice. It may be that you can consent on your own behalf, but this does not necessarily mean you have the same right to refuse. Others, such as your parents, guardian … may be able to consent on your behalf”.
Although the circumstances are very different and, I hope, of a less tragic character than those that have motivated the tabling of this amendment, there is a similarity in the situation of the clear need for legal advice to be available to people being detained under the Mental Health Act with regard to the treatment envisaged for them by those in whose care they find themselves. I would hope that the Minister will accede to the argument advanced hitherto by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas. In that event, the amendment would also cover the circumstances that I have outlined and which Mind has helpfully suggested.
Lord Newton of Braintree
Perhaps I may briefly intervene, having been frightened off by the fact that no one else, other than lawyers, has dared to speak this afternoon—it is just the Minister and I who share this disadvantage, disability or whatever it is. On a number of occasions I have declared an interest as chair of a mental health trust, which is no longer the case because it merged with another one on New Year’s Day. I am now fancy-free as far as the NHS is concerned for the first time in about 15 years.
However, it means that I know a certain amount about this issue. It occurred to me, too, that mental capacity issues appear to be covered by this amendment. It would be very helpful if the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, could tell us whether he intended that. It would also be helpful if the Minister could tell us whether his interpretation is the same as that of noble Lords on the opposition Front Bench; namely, whether this proposal would provide additional protection or access to legal aid for the relatives of someone who has been ordered to have treatment which they think is wrong, and which the subject of the treatment cannot challenge for mental capacity reasons, but where there should be some right to raise a challenge to the professionals.
Lord Beecham
I am very grateful to the noble Lord for his intervention. On behalf of all those who have benefited from his wisdom and experience as chair of a mental health trust, perhaps I may express the gratitude that they would wish no doubt to convey to him on this aspect of his very long and very distinguished public service.
Lord McNally
I echo that tribute to my noble friend Lord Newton. I passed him in the corridor the other day and said that he was in grave danger of becoming a national treasure but not necessarily one on whom the Government can rely.
Lord McNally
My Lords, on the treatment issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, and others, I am advised that the Bill covers them. The matters covered by the Mental Health Act 1983 and the Mental Capacity Act 2005 are covered in paragraph 5 of Part 1 of Schedule 1, which includes treatment issues. Amendment 53 seeks to insert a paragraph to provide legal aid for cases concerning whether medical treatment is in the best interests of those incapable of giving or withholding consent. The amendment is unnecessary.
As I have explained, paragraph 5 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 already provides for legal aid to be available for cases arising under the Mental Health Act 1983 and the Mental Capacity Act 2005, including cases concerning medical treatment of patients or those who lack capacity. Furthermore, paragraphs 9 and 15 of Part 3 of Schedule 1 provide for legal aid for advocacy for mental health cases before the Mental Health Tribunal. Paragraph 4 provides for advocacy before the Court of Protection where there is to be an oral hearing and the case will determine the vital interests of the individual—for example, medical treatment, including psychological treatment, life, liberty, physical safety, capacity to marry or enter into civil partnerships, capacity to enter into sexual relations, or the right to family life.
Paragraphs 1 and 2 of Part 3 of Schedule 1 provide legal aid for advocacy for any onward appeals to the Court of Appeal or Supreme Court on mental health or capacity issues concerning medical treatment. Furthermore, public law challenges to the lawfulness of public authority actions could be brought by way of judicial review, which is in scope under paragraph 17 of Part 1 of Schedule 1. We believe therefore that this amendment is unnecessary and I hope that my noble friend will agree to withdraw it.
I am advised that in the particular case to which he referred the issue was the eligibility of the family for legal aid, because of their means. We have continued to emphasise that legal aid is means-tested in these circumstances and that our intention is to focus it on those who are most needy. I hope that, with those references and that explanation, my noble friend will agree to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
I am very grateful to the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, and the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for their contribution to this discussion and thank the Minister for his reply. Do I take it that he is saying that these cases are covered subject only to the means test? I see him acknowledging that that is the case. I would like him to consider before Report whether in cases of such tragedy as this a means test should be applied at all. Is it appropriate that a person should fail to receive legal assistance except pro bono, as happened in the Re M case, because of their means? I hope that I will be able to discuss that issue and perhaps clarify the purpose of the amendment with the Minister between now and Report. For the moment, I seek leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Carlile of Berriew
Lord Carlile of Berriew
My Lords, the amendment stands in my name and that of other noble Lords. I should make it clear that I shall speak specifically to Amendment 54 and not to the other amendments in this group, which I shall leave to others. Amendment 54 relates to paragraph 17 of Schedule 1 and deals with judicial review. This is an amendment on which the background work has been done by the Bar Council. I should declare an interest as an elected member of the Bar Council—despite that, I agree with it concerning this amendment.
I welcome the Government’s proposal generally to retain public funding for judicial review claims. Judicial review claims are an important part of the rule of law. They are all subject to an important qualification, which is the requirement to obtain the permission of the court for the claim to be pursued. That is not a light procedure. Your Lordships should know that when an application is made for permission for judicial review it goes through quite rigorous stages. The first stage is for the papers to be placed before a High Court judge or a deputy High Court judge—I do from time to time carry out the latter function in judicial review—where they are considered in full. In the great majority of cases, probably in about 95 per cent or possibly more, permission to apply for judicial review is refused at the papers stage. So the permission stage is quite a formidable hurdle. If permission for judicial review is refused, the matter can go for an oral hearing and there are stages thereafter. So this is quite a difficult procedure for potential claimants. It is not easy to be able to bring a case for judicial review.
However, paragraph 17 as drafted causes a difficulty which I and others are anxious to resolve and which may have arisen through inadvertence in drafting. Some of the most important judicial review cases brought in recent years have concerned the way in which public bodies have acted in relation to events giving rise to, or in the aftermath of, death or serious injury. Many of those cases have enjoyed or suffered a large amount of publicity and, indeed, debates in this House and another place. Other significant cases have concerned the exercising of powers enabling a body to seize goods or to enter land—again, a considerable intrusion with the rights of citizens on the face of it. The grounds on which the courts may grant remedies in judicial review are a signal of the excellence of our legal system. I see the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, in his place and he has more experience than most, both at the Bar and on the Bench, in seeing judicial review developing the law in a way that I hope he would agree has become the envy of the world. The public body concerned in judicial review cases is either a statutory body that is alleged to have acted beyond or contrary to its powers, or a Minister or other Crown body exercising some statutory function, or occasionally other bodies that are like public bodies.
The Bar Council and I are concerned that the current drafting of Schedule 1 fails to make it clear that the relationship between paragraph 17 and the exclusions in Part 2 of Schedule 1 leave a fair and level playing field. A number of the exclusions in Part 2, including paragraph 8, which refers to “breach of statutory duty”, could on the face of it remove the scope of legal aid from a wide range of claims for judicial review. The following are examples that may be excluded. A challenge to a decision by a public authority to demolish private property, for example as part of a planning procedure, would be excluded, as would a judicial review to enforce the performance of a statutory duty such as housing a homeless child under the Children Act—I can tell the Committee that such applications are very frequent leave claims, at least permission claims in judicial review. A challenge to a hospital that refused to provide emergency life-saving treatment would be excluded—such claims sometimes arise in relation to elderly people or even in relation to people to whom treatment is denied because, for example, of a history of smoking. Also excluded would be a judicial review into a decision not to hold an inquiry into the violent killing of a young offender. Those are all examples of cases of real importance.
I hope that the Minister will say either that the intention is not to exclude any of those categories, as a statement to that effect would be of great utility in the event of ambiguity being perceived by the courts in such matters, or that he will say, preferably, that as there may be some ambiguity, the Government wish to clarify the matter by producing their own amendment for Report so that there is no lack of clarity or ambiguity. The simple way of doing that would be to remove any doubt by disapplying the exclusions in paragraphs 1 to 5 and 8 of Part 2. This is an important matter. I do not propose at this stage to spend more time on it because I hope that we will hear a helpful response from my noble and learned friend. I beg to move.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
My Lords, I speak to Amendments 55 to 59 which are in my name and that of other noble Lords. I recall when I first started as a lawyer there were some 400 to 500 certiorari applications every year. It was a very limited field but under the guidance of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, and others, the field of judicial review has expanded very considerably.
However, there is a problem. Unmeritorious claims are undoubtedly brought before the court in immigration cases, which take up a great deal of time but are not ever going to get a full hearing in any event. Attempts have been made to curb this, and it is a provision now that only certified people can give immigration advice and representation. It is regulated so that only solicitors, barristers, legal executives and those in a scheme run by the Office of the Immigration Services Commissioner are permitted to give immigration advice and representation in the course of a business. A voluntary agency or charity cannot unless it complies with certain requirements of the Immigration Services Commissioner. Despite all that, these claims are still brought. Some 70 to 80 per cent of immigration judicial review applications are not brought with legal aid, because in order to get legal aid at all there is a merits test, which the particular application has to pass before a solicitor is entitled to take the case forward.
The purpose of Amendment 55, which I have put forward, is to keep the scope of judicial review as it is under paragraph 17 but to remove the restrictions on immigration cases that are set out in sub-paragraphs (5) to (7). The immigration-specific exclusions that are now contained in that paragraph were not part of the original consultation. When the consultation was first put forward in November 2011, the Government said, quite robustly, that they regarded judicial review as a particular priority because:
“These proceedings … represent a crucial way of ensuring that state power is exercised responsibly”.
In their response to the consultation, the Government said, in relation to unmeritorious judicial review applications, that:
“The current criteria governing the granting of legal aid in individual cases would generally preclude such funding”.
So, on the one hand the Government are saying that they think judicial review is very important in making sure that the UK Border Agency acts properly, and on the other hand they are saying that the granting of legal aid will require the passing of the merits test, which will generally preclude such funding. That was their attitude then; however, when they produced the Bill, they excluded these cases, which they acknowledge are crucial to ensuring the responsible exercise of state power. I am looking to hear an explanation from the Minister of why, between the consultation and the publication of the Bill, it was thought necessary to exclude immigration cases in that way.
Amendment 59 is intended to retain legal aid for an immigration judicial review where a previous appeal or judicial review has been successful or has not been brought with legal aid. Under the Bill, a previous appeal or judicial review proceedings will prevent or exclude legal aid for any subsequent immigration judicial review applications—whatever the merit of subsequent applications and whatever the result in the previous appeal or judicial review proceedings. Whether the earlier proceedings were successful, or whether the UK Border Agency has failed to act on the previous decision or it is flouting the decision, it is not possible to have legal aid to bring a second judicial review. The Bill will remove legal aid generally for all non-asylum immigration matters. This means that those unable to pay for legal advice and representation will in immigration cases not be able to obtain legal aid for advice about their immigration situation or representation in dealing with the UK Border Agency or any immigration appeal. The immigration-specific exclusions relating to judicial review effectively ensure that those affected cannot have any legal aid at any stage of the immigration process. As I have already said to your Lordships, immigration is a problem, and it is brought forward in unmeritorious cases, generally without legal aid backing it. But now not even in the meritorious cases will legal aid be granted.
Lord Bach
My Lords, the Committee should be grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Carlile of Berriew and Lord Thomas of Gresford, for moving and speaking to their various amendments in this group. From this side of the Committee, we unreservedly support the series of amendments that make up this group. They are important amendments.
I have two things to say to start with. Apart from supporting the amendments, which is the first thing I have to say, the second is to say how much we support the Government in having kept judicial review in scope in general terms as part of legal aid. It plays an important role. However, they seem to intend to be too restrictive on immigration matters. The position of the Official Opposition on legal aid for immigration matters is clear; we believe that immigration law should remain within the scope of legal aid. It is an important, if qualified, check on poor decision-making by the UK Border Agency and other agencies, and it ensures that immigrants, many of whom are vulnerable, disorientated and scared, are able to assert their rights by accessing what may be a confusing new judicial system. Moreover, it keeps the machinery of justice working efficiently as well.
We regret that the Government have carved out immigration law from the scope of legal aid and judicial review, which are important areas, save, of course, where their advisers—and here I have no doubt that it was experienced and leading counsel—told them that it would be in breach of their convention obligations. Asylum cases remain pretty much in scope, although not entirely, as the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, has just pointed out. Judicial review was an area that we thought likely to be uncontentious. The Government themselves have said, as we have said, that judicial review is the safeguard against mad or bad decision-taking. The test is not an easy test to meet, if you are an applicant, as the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, showed very clearly a few minutes ago when he referred to the Wednesbury test.
It is worth reminding the Committee what the three limbs of that test are: that the public authority, in making the decision, took into account factors that ought not to have been taken into account; that it failed to take into account factors that ought to have been taken into account; or that the decision was so unreasonable that no reasonable authority would ever impose it. In other words, as stated in another leading case, it must be,
“so outrageous in its defiance of logic or accepted moral standards that no sensible person who had applied his mind to the question to be decided could have arrived at it”.
Just to state those words shows what a high hurdle has to be reached for someone to succeed in a judicial review against the state.
Of course, such worrying decisions are occasionally taken by government or emanations of government. It happens, and the fact that there is a remedy in our law is a huge advantage to our law and very much respected around the world, but surely the answer for those who have suffered in that way is not to punish them for the bad decision-making that has been made by the state. There have of course been problems with judicial reviews being used as a weapon by some people—letter before action, in particular. However, as has been stated, the tests are very rigorous and do not permit vexatious or tendentious proceedings. They effectively act to safeguard the public purse, and we have heard no arguments at all to suggest that there has somehow been a failure of the system in the areas that are being taken out of scope of judicial review. It is really incumbent on the Government to show that there has been a failure of the system before taking these cases out of scope.
The Minister in another place, the honourable Mr Djanogly, stated in response to a query by my honourable friend Mr Michael Connarty as to how many cases there were that showed the failure of the system:
“We do have figures, but I do not happen to have them with me. I will write to the hon. Gentleman with figures”.—[Official Report, Commons, 31/10/11; col. 650.]
In his response in writing, however, he said:
“We do not keep these specific figures”.
I raise that not to make some petty point but only to invite the Minister—who, if I may say so, I am delighted to see in his place as it seems a long time ago, perhaps about a year, since we last faced each other across the Dispatch Box; crossed swords is perhaps putting it too highly—to please go back and double-check whether there are any of those figures.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
I cannot resist asking the noble Lord whether he would also class as a failure of the system the fact that more and more legal aid practitioners in immigration and asylum have withdrawn from the scheme altogether, because they tend to be concentrated in city centres and the current rates of remuneration for this work are such that they are simply not sustainable? As I say, I could not resist adding that to his catalogue.
Lord Bach
I cannot blame the noble Lord for asking an-ex Legal Aid Minister that question. In immigration law over the last 20 years or so—this has been hinted at already in contributions, and no one really can gainsay it—it was spotted that there were those who practised immigration law who did not do their profession any credit. Perhaps I might put it as cautiously as that; it is probably a good deal worse, frankly. The previous Government, with general support, therefore took steps, as the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, reminded us, to make sure that the industry, as it were, became regulated. Thank goodness for that, but the rewards to be gained from doing legal aid work properly in this field are not very great. I have to concede that.
Will the Minister please double-check in the Ministry of Justice, which I know is not his department, whether any figures can be employed for the Government’s case for taking these parts of judicial review out of scope? As the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, pointed out with some force, there was no consultation on this point, nor was there any comment in the Government's response to consultation—presumably because it was never referred to in the first place. We believe that judicial review is an important safeguard. Obviously the Government believe that too. That is why we support these amendments, because we want to know why the Government intend to take this part of judicial review out of scope.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, we have come to an important part of Schedule 1, relating generally to immigration, asylum, removal directions and judicial review, although the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Carlile of Berriew was of much more general application to judicial review, which is an important part of our legal system, as he very clearly and eloquently set out. Amendment 54 seeks to disapply certain exclusions set out in Part 2 of the Bill for judicial review claims. It would appear to be aimed at ensuring that funding for judicial review is available for judicial reviews concerning, for example, breaches of statutory duty.
Our position is that we believe the amendment largely to be unnecessary, because the exclusions at paragraphs 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 8 of Part 2 of Schedule 1 are not intended to prevent funding for judicial review. Rather, the exclusions are intended to prevent the funding of, for example, tortious causes of action, typically for damages. While I hope that that would reassure, perhaps I can follow it by making it clear that our intention is to retain legal aid for most judicial review claims, including those relating to personal injury or death and breach of a statutory duty. I assure the Committee, and indeed my noble friend, that because we have obviously had representations on this point, we are actively and seriously considering whether in the light of this amendment and the points which my noble friend has made in moving it, we need to bring forward amendments of our own to clarify the position and to give proper effect to the intention.
Lord Carlile of Berriew
I am most grateful to my noble and learned friend. He has been extremely helpful. Can he clarify one point? Sometimes when judicial review claims are brought there is included in the claim a claim for damages, which can be awarded under judicial review. I take it from what he said that if a claim for damages is part of a judicial review, that part of the claim would also have legal aid available to it. It is one legal aid order.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
This is quite important. As my noble friend will recognise, the overall structure of what is proposed to be in scope does not provide for legal aid for damages. However, I recognise what he says about damages being part of an overall judicial review claim. It is important that we look at this and ensure that what appears in the Bill delivers the intention. I am sure that we will return to this matter on Report.
My noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford spoke to Amendments 55 to 59, which concern the exclusions from legal aid which we have made for some immigration judicial reviews. Before I turn to the specific amendments, it might be helpful if I briefly remind the Committee of the Government’s reasoning on this matter. My noble friend raised the question of the lack of consultation—as did the noble Lord, Lord Bach, who I am delighted to engage with again at the Dispatch Box. I think that the last time we did so was in the debate on the fixed-term Parliaments legislation. It has been six months but seems like a year.
My noble friend and the noble Lord raised the question of a lack of consultation. However, in response to our consultation on legal aid the Judges’ Council of England and Wales highlighted the large number of immigration judicial reviews that were without merit. That point was raised in the consultation and my noble friend has accepted in speaking to his amendments that there are a number of unmeritorious cases taking up time. This change was made against that background. Although only a minority of those cases would currently receive legal aid, the Government’s view is nevertheless that it is wrong in principle for such cases to remain within the scope of funding. We are therefore seeking to remove two classes of immigration judicial review from the scope of legal aid, again subject to certain exceptions which I will come on to discuss.
The noble Lord, Lord Bach, asked whether I would double-check the figures on taking these parts of judicial review out of scope. Of course we will double-check them, and if there is further information we will make it available not only to the noble Lord but to all those participating in our proceedings.
The first category of case that we seek to exclude is one where there has already been at least one appeal before the tribunal or another judicial review within the past year on the same or a substantially similar issue. The second category concerns judicial reviews of removal directions rather than the underlying immigration decision. Such proceedings are often brought at the last minute—sometimes literally as people are being put on to a plane. We recognise that there will be some genuine, if unusual, cases within these categories that could still warrant legal aid. That is why we have made exceptions to our proposed exclusions—if the Committee will bear with the double negatives, which seem to be quite frequent in this part of the Bill. These are intended to take into account the potential for changes in an individual’s circumstances over time. In both categories, the exclusion is subject to a one-year time limit. We have also made exceptions for judicial reviews of decisions by the Home Office to certify under Section 94 or Section 96 of the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002. These provisions curtail asylum appeal rights in certain circumstances and so maintaining legal aid for a potential judicial review is, we believe, an important safeguard.
We are therefore keeping judicial reviews of a decision by the Home Office to refuse to treat further submissions as a fresh claim for asylum. Again, this maintains the availability of legal aid for judicial review asylum cases where there may not have been an appeal to the tribunal. It has been suggested that most types of immigration cases will not be able to get legal aid, but most types of immigration judicial review will still be in scope. The provisions in the Bill remove only two relatively limited types of judicial review, and even these provisions are subject to the exceptions that I have outlined.
On the specific amendments spoken to by my noble friend Lord Thomas, Amendment 55 seeks to keep all immigration judicial reviews within the scope of legal aid. From what I have said, noble Lords will see why the Government do not agree with that amendment.
Amendments 56 and 57 relate to the operation of the exclusion of judicial reviews on removal directions. The Government seek to exclude judicial reviews of removal directions from the scope of legal aid because there will already have been a chance to appeal the underlying decision. More specifically, Amendment 56 would in effect retain legal aid for these judicial reviews in circumstances where there had been no appeal of the original underlying decision, or at least no appeal before the removal had been effected.
It is true that some decisions to remove can be challenged only by appeal from overseas, as Parliament decided. While judicial review can still be used as a means of challenging this, it does not follow that legal aid should be available in all these cases. As I explained earlier, in asylum cases where there is no right of appeal or where, as in Section 94 cases, any right of appeal arises only outside the UK, legal aid will remain available for judicial review. However, we believe that choosing not to exercise this appeal right should not bring someone within the scope of legal aid.
Amendment 57 raises a technical point, as my noble friend recognised. It is based on the belief that the provision around the “leave to appeal” in paragraph 17(6)(b) is unnecessary because there is no provision to appeal to the First-tier Tribunal in these cases. However, there is a leave-to-appeal stage to the Upper Tribunal, so we think that the current drafting is sound, albeit that this is a very fine technical point.
The intention of Amendment 58, as I understand it and as was stated by my noble friend, is to avoid a potential definitional problem to do with the meaning of asylum across the 1951 refugee convention, the EU procedures directive and the qualification directive. Again, it is recognised that this is technical but of course important, and it is about the definition of protection cases—that is, non-refugee convention cases.
The Government understand the concerns but on balance we think that they are misplaced. Our view is that the reference in paragraph 17(7)(a) of Schedule 1 to an asylum application within the meaning of the EU procedures directive is sufficient to cover all applications for international protection. I am happy to put it on the record that that is our intention. However, the amendment goes further than the Government intend; it seems to provide legal aid in all judicial reviews connected with asylum matters, not just those where there has been no previous opportunity to appeal. I believe that it would be wrong to retain legal aid for judicial review cases that are very likely to be without merit, regardless of whether they are asylum cases. Nevertheless, I express my appreciation to my noble friend for raising this issue and regarding the specific points that he made, we will certainly look at whether anything further is required here.
Amendment 59 seeks to add two further exceptions to the exclusions. The first is to make an exception for cases that have not previously benefited from legal aid. I understand the logic: without legal assistance, someone may not have put the right arguments forward first time around, so when it comes to potential judicial review, should they not have legal aid to ensure that they get it right? Our response is that if legal assistance means that they can put new arguments forward—sufficiently new that the court or tribunal is considering a different issue—they would still be eligible for legal aid for the judicial review. This is because exclusion applies only where the judicial review is in respect of the same or substantially similar issue. However, if they are still raising the same or substantially similar issue, even with the potential benefit of a lawyer, we do not believe that they should be eligible for legal aid.
The second exception, as sought by Amendment 59, relates to cases where the appellants have been successful in their previous appeal for judicial review. We think that there is an issue here and we will certainly look at that.
I hope that we have given a satisfactory explanation. This is a technical matter but I do not for a moment deny that these are serious issues. In asking my noble friend Lord Carlile to withdraw the amendment in the light of the assurances that I have given, let me give him a further assurance. He asked whether judicial review funding would cover the damages remedy sought through the judicial review, and the answer is yes. If we can find the right words, we will give proper effect to our intention.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
Before my noble friend Lord Carlile replies regarding his amendment, I thank the Minister for his reply to my amendments, which raised difficult technical points. I hope that he will forgive me if I read what he has said with some care, as no doubt he will read the whole debate with some care. I look forward to seeing what technical amendments he may feel are necessary to deal with the points that I raised. I am also grateful to him for the assurances that he has given, certainly in relation to part of the amendments.
Lord Carlile of Berriew
My Lords, in relation to Amendment 54, I am grateful for the explicit support from the noble Lord, Lord Bach, on the opposition Front Bench. So far as my noble and learned friend’s response is concerned, as he spoke, I reminded myself that when I was a young man and he was a very young man, we shared a flat for a period within the Division Bell area. When you have shared a kitchen with someone, albeit one in which the most used utensil was the corkscrew, you get to know who you can trust. I entirely trust my noble and learned friend and always have done. I am extremely grateful for his assurances; he answered very fully the concerns that I and the Bar Council felt about this issue. I look forward to returning to the matter on Report, with those assurances intact and enhanced. In the circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Ramsbotham
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, the purpose of Amendments 60 and 61 is to ask the Government to rectify an omission that denies legal aid to those who have been unlawfully deprived of their liberty by the state and their ability to obtain redress through the courts.
The Government’s consultation resulted in legal aid being denied except for cases that concern a significant breach of human rights—abuses of positions of power or claims arising from allegations of sexual abuse or attack. Abuse of power by a public authority—which is itself a position of power—is defined in paragraph 19 of Schedule 1 as an act or omission that is deliberate or dishonest and results in reasonably foreseeable harm to a person or property. Unfortunately, however, the extent of the meaning of the words “deliberate” and “harm” in the Bill is not defined. Unless it is, I fear that based on past experience, immigration authorities and police will continue to disregard unlawful or false imprisonment on the grounds that “deliberate” means something more than merely unlawful, and “harm” means injury.
Let me give an example of what I mean. A British man spent 19 months in an immigration detention centre pleading with the Home Office that he was British, but lacking the documents to prove it. His deportation appeal, for which he was unable to obtain representation due to the cuts in immigration legal aid, was dismissed. However, a solicitor gave him the benefit of the doubt and wrote to the Home Office saying that the onus was on it, as the detainer, to prove that the man was not British. Within two days of the letter, he was released. At this point, under the new proposals, no further legal aid would have been available because on the face of it, no harm—other than the loss of personal liberty for a period—had been caused by an inadvertent and honest mistake. However, after many hours of legal aid-funded work, evidence emerged of prolonged deceit on the part of the Home Office, resulting in substantial damages having to be paid.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 61ZA, which is in this group. It does not much relate to the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, but it raises an interesting issue to explore at this stage. It would include the Duchy of Cornwall or the Crown Estate as a public body under paragraph 19 of Schedule 1, to allow for those who believe that these organisations have abused their positions of power. My reason for tabling this amendment is the continuing uncertainty over the status of these bodies, which can be summed up by saying, “Are they private or are they public?”. Are they accountable to Parliament and how do Ministers take into account the issues raised by them, including the numerous handwritten letters that they reportedly receive from Prince Charles, which must always remain confidential? There is a complete lack of transparency.
My attention was drawn to this because of a recent case before the First-tier Tribunal of the General Regulatory Chamber on information rights between someone called Michael Bruton and the Information Commissioner and the Duchy over allegations that the Duchy allowed an oyster-growing grid to be deposited in the Helford river in Cornwall—in what was reported to have been an SSSI—without carrying out the necessary environmental assessments. The question then arose of whether the Duchy is covered by the Environmental Information Regulations, and hinges on whether it is a public body. The Duchy’s counsel said that,
“the Duchy is not democratically accountable in any meaningful sense”.
I find that rather an extraordinary statement. We can debate what it means, but the tribunal’s decision hinged on the definition of a public body. The tribunal found that the Duchy was a public body under the Environmental Information Regulations. Its judgment hinged on the fact that the Duchy is the harbour authority for the port of St Mary’s in the Scilly Isles. The Duchy has appealed so we do not yet know the result.
It is interesting because, at the same time, I have a Private Member’s Bill that is going through your Lordships’ House rather slowly. I was told by the Clerks that I would have to ask the Minister to write to the Duchy to ask permission for the Bill to be taken forward because it affects the private interests of Prince Charles. Clearly, in this House it is believed that having an interest in a harbour is a private interest, whereas the information tribunal thinks that it is a public interest. There are around 120 harbour authorities in this country. I had to ask why the Minister had to write to just one and not the other 119 but that is probably something of an aside. There is a lot of uncertainty there. I do not know how Mr Bruton is funding the appeal or the original work but he certainly did not get legal aid. Perhaps that should have been considered.
I turn quickly to the Crown Estate. Noble Lords will be aware that the Treasury Sub-Committee in the House of Commons investigated the workings of the Crown Estate. Its report was the first for around 20 years and it was clearly frightened by some of the issues that came back. It is interesting that the Government have recently changed the method of funding the public activities of Her Majesty by going back to pre-George III times and agreeing to give 15 per cent of Crown Estate revenue. However, they cannot tell what the future revenue of the Crown Estate will be because there could be very large revenue from North Sea oil and all the wind farms that are being built. Until now, that revenue has gone to the Treasury. We do not know what will happen in the future but I fear that there will be a lot of uncertainty about this. It is still not clear how one can ask questions about the activities and financing of the Crown Estate. Is it a public or a private body?
This uncertainty, coupled with the fear of some people and the unwillingness of the Government to subject the Duchy and the Crown Estate as public bodies—if that is what they are—to proper scrutiny, is a major hurdle for anyone willing to take them on in the courts. That is probably what is intended but it is unfair. It seems that these bodies decide whether they are public or private as it suits them in particular cases, which is all wrong. Therefore, there is very little precedent and, no doubt, much higher costs for any appellant. I will be very interested to hear what the Minister has to say about this. Does he believe that it would be equitable for legal aid to be available in such cases? Alternatively, or additionally, will the Government set up a review of what is private and what is public in these cases to produce some clarification and transparency, so that everyone who has to deal with these organisations knows where they stand?
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, I shall speak in favour of Amendment 60, for which the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, has made a strong case. I expect the Minister may say that, ipso facto, an abuse of power is unlawful. The problem is that if that is the argument, the way that sub-paragraph (6) is drafted apparently provides a complete definition of the phrase “abuse of power” in the context of paragraph 19, and the totality of that definition is in sub-paragraph (6)(a) and (b). It seems necessary to include the word “unlawful” although, as I say, it seems manifestly obvious that any public authority acting unlawfully is, by definition, abusing its power.
I would also be grateful if the Minister could tell us whether the word “deliberate” here means the same as “intentional”. I rather assume that it does, but some explanation is needed of why the normal terms—“intentional” or “with intent”—have been changed in this instance to “deliberate”. Does the definition as drafted exclude the careless exercise of power on the part of a public authority because there is a difference between a reckless or careless exercise of power and one that is deliberate or intentional? I hope that the noble Lord will refer to those points when he sums up. As I say, I am happy to support this amendment.
Lord Howarth of Newport
I, too, would like to say a word in support of the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. He has raised very important points. Surely, what he has argued for is self-evidently right in principle. As the noble Lord suggested, public authorities are almost by definition powerful in relation to citizens. It is, of course, incumbent on all public authorities to act lawfully. Ignorance of the law on the part of a public authority should be no excuse for that public authority any more than it is on the part of the citizen. Therefore, the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, would repair an omission in the drafting. Otherwise, it would be possible under the Bill as drafted for the public authority to say, “We did not realise. We did not mean to do this. It was not intentional. It was not done knowingly”. Or it could tell lies, but it will be caught that way. If the public authority said that it was sorry and that it had made a mistake of law, it certainly seems to me that the citizen ought to be entitled to some redress.
Amendment 61 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, is also very valuable. From time to time a number of us may be rather concerned at the readiness and apparent arbitrariness with which people seeking immigration status can be detained. It must be beyond question that deprivation of liberty, whether or not it was deliberate or dishonest, is a harm. Therefore, it is surely right that the two amendments that the noble Lord has proposed should go in the Bill. They make evident good sense and they are proper.
Lord Judd
My Lords, I, too, commend this amendment for very serious attention. In the economic pressures under which we are operating and which are very much a factor in everything we are considering under this legislation, it seems to me that this provision is another example of a heavy penalty falling on the most vulnerable and those in the worst possible psychological situation. Sometimes we need to break away from our legal preoccupations and think of the predicament of the individual. They go through an extraordinary nightmare in many of the circumstances that we are discussing. We are discussing an authority of the state doing something which is a denial of everything that the state says it is about. In our immigration and other policy, we expect people to give undertakings and to prove that they understand the culture of our society and why it matters. Here is a provision which is an absolute denial of what this country is about—the deprivation of liberty. I would have thought that if we realised such a thing had happened, we would fall over backwards to put it right and to give a positive indication of our disapproval of what had happened and our sympathy for the individual concerned.
I hope that I may be allowed to make a wider point. I sometimes think that in our preoccupation with specific legislation we fail to make connections. All the time we are worried about stability, terrorism and the appeal of extremists. However, this kind of thing plays into the hands of agitators who portray these issues as examples of the hypocrisy of our society. It is hypocritical for an agent of the state to do something that is a denial of what the state is about and for the state to give no assistance in making sure that the wrong is put right. A terribly important principle has been raised in this amendment.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, my name is attached to Amendments 60 and 61 which were spoken to by my noble friend Lord Ramsbotham. Having listened to the contributions that have been made, it is clear that the whole area needs rewriting. The noble Lord, Lord Phillips, queried the various phrases that are used. Not to hold public bodies to account when they have behaved unlawfully is something which a country that prides itself on decent behaviour should not allow.
The Earl of Sandwich
My Lords, I am not sure whether this is the appropriate amendment, but having had some experience of immigration and immigration detention I just wanted to make one point. I know that we are coming on to issues related to that. I declare an interest as a patron of visitors to Haslar detention centre in Portsmouth.
Like others, I understand that the protection of liberty is one of the primary factors in the allocation of legal aid. Yet the advice I have received is that this Bill will fall heavily on the most vulnerable people in our society—asylum seekers and those in detention who are awaiting removal to their home country. In many cases, it will mean that a vulnerable person, perhaps a victim of torture and perhaps as young as 16, will be unable to present their case without access to any formal representation and whose legitimate cries for help under international asylum law will simply be unheard. Applications for bail will be refused even more often than they are today simply because of the lack of legal aid and proper representation, if I have understood the situation right.
I well understand that the Minister has to defend the Government’s position in difficult times but I would like some reassurance that the test of vulnerability under this legislation will be reasonable. Perhaps he could explain how it will conform with international human rights law.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I rise to deal with the amendments in this group, one of which, Amendment 90ZZA, is in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Bach. It might be thought odd that that amendment is included in the group we are discussing, but I will deal with that later.
I wish to deal first with the amendment spoken to by my noble friend Lord Berkeley. I suppose that it can only appropriately be described as an original amendment as it relates to the Duchy. However, it raises an interesting constitutional point which needs to be explored, although, it may be thought, probably not in the context of this Bill. The noble Lord raises a legitimate concern and he is not responsible for the grouping. The matter does not fall entirely within the purview of the group that we are discussing and perhaps not of the Bill, but no doubt those matters will be addressed in some other way at an appropriate time.
I wish to touch briefly on the government amendments which are wholly uncontroversial and entirely acceptable to the Opposition. The Minister may not offer a detailed description of those amendments as they speak for themselves.
We certainly support Amendments 60 and 61, which were spoken to so ably by the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. We entirely agree with him that we need clarity as to what constitutes harm for the purpose of the Bill, and in this context the loss of liberty must certainly be included. I trust that that is acceptable to the Minister. Frankly, it would be absurd if that were not the case. There is a question in my mind, and perhaps those of other noble Lords, about the precise meaning of “deliberate” in this context. Does that refer to the act of omission or commission—the substantive act—or to the fact that the consequences which are complained of were intended all along or ignored in a negligent way? It seems to me and to other noble Lords who have spoken that this amendment deals very adequately with those matters, and should be accepted.
The noble Lord who moved the amendment properly referred to immigration. In a briefing provided by Bail for Immigration Detainees, the point is made that the Bill does not define what “deliberate” or “harm” mean. It expresses concern that the ministry will seek to interpret “deliberate” as more than unlawful, and “harm” as injury, and that that would result in the exclusion of many claims for damages for unlawful intention or false imprisonment brought by individuals who lost their liberty as a result of unlawful acts by the immigration authorities or the police. In that event, it is quite unrealistic to suppose that without legal assistance such claimants could properly make their case. No doubt, the Minister will clarify the intention of the Bill in that respect.
However, these matters are not necessarily confined to immigration cases. There might well be other cases in which liberty might be lost, arrests made and people detained—for example, under the auspices of defective warrants. It may be that arrests are unlawful on the grounds that the requirements of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act were not observed, where the actions of officers were unlawful but were not thought to be deliberate. Other cases might arise out of breaches of the Data Protection Act, where a disclosure might wrongfully be made about someone who, for example, alleged that he had a criminal record when that was not the case and damage might be occasioned. Another example might be where someone in custody, either in a police station or prison, might be assaulted by someone else simply because of the negligence of those operating the facility in question. I should not imagine that the Government would seek to exclude the provision of legal aid in those cases.
Amendment 90ZZA refers to a rather different set of circumstances—in fact, an entirely different set of circumstances—that bring into play the position that might arise in the Court of Protection. On an earlier amendment, we heard the noble Lord, Lord McNally, restraining his glee at pointing out the defects in amendments moved by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, and supported by me, on the applicability of Court of Protection proceedings. However, this amendment relates to a different case. It seeks to insert “mental or psychological” harm, in addition to physical harm, into paragraph 4 of Part 3 of Schedule 1, relating to,
“Advocacy in the proceedings in the Court of Protection”.
At the moment, legal aid would be limited to,
“a person’s right to life … a person’s liberty or physical safety”,
and some other matters. However, physical safety is not by any means the be-all and end-all, and there are clearly cases where people might be subjected to psychological or emotional harm and may require legal assistance. One can think of people with learning disabilities being abused or taunted, generally suffering as a result of the actions of others, and needing the protection of the Court of Protection—and therefore needing legal aid to pursue their remedy and obtain protection. It is fair to say that it is unlikely that there would be many cases of this kind, and therefore, as has been suggested in respect of other amendments that we have discussed, the cost would be likely to be limited. However, the Court of Protection can deal with such matters by granted orders and injunctions to protect people from harm that may amount to physical or emotional harm, in addition to the ordinary rights that would be available regarding legal aid.
Lord Clinton-Davis
I am concerned about the position of the Official Solicitor. Would he not be inhibited from acting at all in certain instances? Therefore, the vulnerable person concerned would be exposed to increase vulnerability.
Lord Beecham
That certainly must be a risk, and the need for the assistance of the Court of Protection is therefore enhanced. I am grateful to my noble friend for allowing that point to be emphasised. It is therefore essential that legal aid is available so that the court can be approached and the Official Solicitor can represent the person in question. Otherwise, he would be unable to do so because there would be no provision for costs.
I hope that despite the odd location of our amendment the Minister might look at it with some sympathy, and that if he cannot come to a conclusion on it, given that it was tabled very late, he will at least agree that he will take this matter back to look at before we reach Report.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for introducing this group of amendments. Arguably, there is nothing more fundamental for a parliament to discuss than the relationship between the state and the citizen. His amendments have given rise to an important debate, with contributions from my noble friend Lord Phillips, the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, and the noble Lords, Lord Judd and Lord Howarth. I hope that I can reassure Members of the Committee in my response.
Amendment 60 seeks to make civil legal aid available for claims in relation to any alleged unlawful act by a public authority that causes reasonably foreseeable harm. In general terms, Schedule 1 makes legal aid available for the most serious cases and for proceedings that seek to hold public bodies to account for their decisions. This includes civil legal services for judicial review of an act, decision or omission, and provides a means for people to challenge the lawfulness of a public authority’s actions on public grounds.
In terms of private law claims primarily for damages, while we consider that such claims do not generally justify funding, an important exception to the rule provided for in the Bill is for the most serious claims against public authorities. The Bill ensures that funding may be made available for tort and other damages claims against public authorities for an abuse of position or powers, a significant breach of human rights, allegations of the abuse of a child or vulnerable adult, or allegations of a sexual offence. The definition—about which I shall say more—of:
“Abuse of position or power by public authority”,
is intended to cover the most serious misuses of state power. That is why it is defined in the Bill as an alleged act that is deliberate or dishonest, and that causes reasonably foreseeable harm to a person or property. Our definition would exclude from scope a range of less serious cases against public authorities—a point made by my noble friend Lord Phillips—including simple negligence claims such as “slipping” or “tripping”. He asked if “deliberate” abuse of position or power is the same as “intentional”. The answer is yes. As to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, who asked whether “deliberate” referred to a deliberate act or deliberate consequences, the word refers to the act or omission that is complained of and for which legal aid is sought. Legal aid would therefore be available for deliberate or dishonest acts or omissions by a public authority that cause reasonably foreseeable harm.
Amendment 60 would widen the scope of paragraph 19 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 to make legal aid available for claims in tort or other damages claims for any alleged unlawful act by a public authority that causes harm. Noble Lords will be interested to know that unlawful acts are already covered by paragraph 19, which covers situations where an act is deliberate and dishonest, and results in foreseeable harm. However, the concern is that the amendment as tabled would widen the coverage beyond what we believe should be within scope.
Alternatively, public law challenges to the lawfulness of a public authority’s action can be brought by judicial review, which is in scope under the Bill. We have focused limited resources on those who need them most and the most serious cases, in which legal advice or representation is justified. I accept that that approach means that public funding will not be available for each and every claim involving a public authority, but it is intended to be available for the most serious cases and to address serious abuses.
Lord Avebury
Although paragraph 26(1)(a) allows claimants to be granted legal aid in respect of asylum, it does not extend to the families of refugees who seek to rejoin the principal member of the family in the United Kingdom. Anxiety concerning that omission has been expressed by the UNHCR. Can my noble and learned friend say anything on that?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
It is an important point, which has been raised before in the context of the Bill. I think that Amendments 69 and 71 in the name of my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford—to which we will come, dare I say, sooner rather than later—raise the point about families of asylum seekers. I hope that when we come to that, we will have a proper debate on the important issue that my noble friend raises.
Lord Howarth of Newport
The Minister is defending the Bill’s drafting against the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, in Amendment 60. Is he therefore saying that if someone is the victim of a mistake by a public authority—not a deliberate mistake or one dishonestly intended but none the less an egregious error arising from ignorance of the law, which ought to be known by the people working in the public authority—there is to be no legally aided redress for the citizen, even if the harm is considerable?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
As I said to my noble friend Lord Phillips, the Bill does not include negligent actions of a public authority. I made very clear that it is intended for the serious-end range of abuse of power and the harm that results. It is not intended to include all that lies by way of negligence.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
I am sorry to interrupt the Minister’s flow, but this is a valuable opportunity to get to the bottom of this. From what he is saying, a reckless act on behalf of the state would be neither deliberate nor dishonest. If it was reckless, there would be no redress. Can that be right?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My noble friend well knows that where recklessness goes into intent is not always very clear. I very much hear the point that he is making; I want to reflect on it. There is a continuum, but I have made it clear that it certainly does not include negligence. That is why we are concerned about “unlawful”, because that opens the provision beyond what is intended and could lead to cases of damages for what are not by any stretch of the imagination serious consequences or serious harm for the individual.
Lord Neill of Bladen
On Paragraph 19(6), the Minister said that the word deliberate would not cover negligence. What is a deliberate act intended to cover? Most people, when they do things, do them deliberately. Is that what it means, or anything beyond that?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
As I said earlier, when my noble friend asked whether deliberate meant intentional, that is what it means: it is an intentional act of a public authority. The question is: if it is a mistake that leads to considerable harm but is not deliberate or dishonest, will legal aid not be available? I hope that I have indicated that no, under paragraph 19 it would not be available but, as I said, paragraph 20, which covers a significant breach of human rights, might nevertheless allow for funding in those circumstances, or cases might be taken forward by way of judicial review, which might be available for funding.
There is a range of provision in Schedule 1 for cases to be taken forward against public authorities, not solely on the particular part of the schedule to which the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, is directed.
Lord Mayhew of Twysden
We quite understand the point that the noble and learned Lord is making: that the intention of Ministers is to restrict legal aid to serious cases and that that is the measure. Would he reflect on the position of someone whose liberty has been wrongfully denied and whether it would be any consolation to know that that resulted not from a deliberate act but from some oversight—a mistake, to use the words already employed, of an egregious kind? It does not seem to me that it makes much difference, if you are unlawfully detained, whether it was just by mistake.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I recognise what my noble and learned friend is saying. I said at the outset that we intend to focus on those areas where there is serious abuse by the state and where serious harm has resulted. It is an effort to target limited resources—I think that there is recognition that resources are limited—where there is the greatest abuse of power or position by the state. In those circumstances, we believe, as I have tried to explain, that abuse does not cover negligence. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Neill, asked what it covers. The paragraph covers the most serious abuses, which may not include mistakes but could include abuses such as misfeasance in public office. I think that that would fall within the definition here.
Lord Bach
Why should it be only the most serious abuses that allow the victim to get legal aid? There are all kinds of abuses. We know that there are some petty abuses and perhaps I would agree with the Minister that not every petty abuse should allow the victim to get legal aid. There are very serious abuses, which the noble and learned Lord says his Bill intends to cover, but what about medium-sized abuses? I am talking about abuses that are pretty severe for the victim. Should the state be stopped from dealing with those? Why should the victim not be able to get legal aid in order to get a remedy in such a case? Why are the Government saying that the abuse has to be really serious?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, as I have sought to explain, we are trying to recognise in the Bill that there are limited resources and to ensure that those limited resources are best and most fairly targeted. I think that in asking the question the noble Lord, Lord Bach, accepted that not all abuse should lead to a claim. That is what we are seeking to do: we are trying to strike a balance between where it would and would not be appropriate for legal aid to be made available. That is why, along that continuum, it is at the serious end where we have sought—
Lord Clinton-Davis
Did the Minister really say that in no circumstances would legal aid be available where the infringement immediately appeared to be minor? Does he not recognise that lawyers often come across cases that appear to be minor but later become rather more serious? What remedy is available in such an instance? Is the Minister really arguing that, once it is decreed that a situation is minimal, there is no possible remedy?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
It is not that there is no possible remedy; it is a question of whether legal aid would be available—whether it is within scope. I do not shy away from the fact that these are difficult judgments to make, but the resources are not unlimited. The noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, refers to a minimal infringement. If the resources are limited, it is very difficult to see why a minimal infringement, which may be one of error, should attract the same level of resources as a case where there has clearly been a misuse or abuse of power on the part of a public authority.
Lord Clinton-Davis
I am talking about the solicitor who originally investigates a case being not very competent. He concludes that the case is minimal but he might be wrong. Why should legal aid not be available later?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I am not sure that I fully understand the point that the noble Lord is making. Obviously, if at a later stage a case clearly qualifies for legal aid under the definition here, one would expect legal aid to be available. Furthermore, in many of the cases that we are talking about where legal aid might not be available, conditional fee agreements might provide a viable alternative where there is clearly merit in the case but it would not qualify under the definition here.
Lord Beecham
I am sorry to intervene and I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Are the Government approaching this matter as though it is to deal only with claims for damages? Of course, other forms of relief might be sought—injunctive relief, declarations and so on—that might bring a spotlight to bear on the alleged abuse that has occurred. That might be the most powerful way of dealing with the error in the first place. Is that not something for which legal aid should be available?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I have tried to identify the other parts of Schedule 1 where other remedies are indicated to be within scope. If I can find the place in my notes, I shall be able to make them very clear. I think I made it clear that judicial review, referred to in paragraph 17 of Part 1 of Schedule 1, is within scope of legal aid. I entirely agree with the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, that there may be many cases where that is the most appropriate route to go down and it would be within scope. However, I have indicated that, where damages are concerned, the criteria that I have tried to set out are the ones that would apply at the serious end of abuse. I gave specific examples of things that are within scope within the schedule, judicial review being possibly the most obvious.
Lord Howarth of Newport
Will the noble and learned Lord consider very carefully whether he is really content that through the Bill the Government are in effect carving out a significant area of immunity for their agents where they might have acted incompetently or irresponsibly—not deliberately or dishonestly but incompetently and irresponsibly—and, in so doing, have caused considerable damage to individuals? In stipulating that legal aid should not be available to enable individuals to secure redress and damages in such a situation, surely the Government are acting to protect themselves in a way that is simply wrong when one considers what the proper relationship between the state and the individual should be.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, at the risk of repetition, I have already said that numerous routes within scope, other than a damages claim, might be open to an individual and might be even more appropriate in addressing the situation where a public authority or the state acts in a way that the individual citizen wishes to challenge. Indeed, as I have indicated, other means, such as conditional fee agreements, might also be appropriate in some cases that are not at the serious end.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
Part 1 of Schedule 1 indicates a number of remedies that are available and within scope. We have sought to make available a range of remedies, particularly with regard to the protection of the liberty of the subject. A deliberate policy choice was made to try to ensure that legal aid would be available to safeguard the liberty of the subject. No doubt the noble Lord, Lord Judd, is being patient.
Lord Judd
I am very grateful to the Minister for giving way. He is being given quite a cross-examination at this stage in our considerations. Before Report, when he is considering what has been said in this debate, I plead with him to remember that this is not just a private matter between the individual concerned and the authorities. In this very sensitive area of public policy there are bound to be much wider ramifications. Ultimately, this is about the credibility of the Home Office and its policies and how they operate. If there appears to be a reluctance to put right generously what has been done indefensibly, that will hardly help to achieve public confidence in the general policies as they are applied. I hope that the Minister will take away that general point, because it is crucial to our deliberations.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I recognise the important point that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, makes. I assure him that, in trying to allocate limited resources, we have sought to ensure that a proper balance is struck. As I indicated, it is of course a balance, and we will weigh in what has been said in this debate. However, I have sought to indicate that we are dealing here not just with claims for damages; we have deliberately included a whole range of remedies within scope in Schedule 1 because we recognise the importance of proper safeguards in the citizen’s relationship with the state. I hope that the noble Lord will recognise that a whole range of remedies will be eligible for legal aid.
The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, has no doubt been waiting for a response to his Amendment 61ZA, which would include within the definition of “public authority” the Crown Estate and the Duchy of Cornwall. The position is that paragraph 19(7) uses a definition of “public authority” that is used in Section 6 of the Human Rights Act 1998. At Section 6(3) of that Act, the definition of a public authority includes,
“(a) a court or tribunal, and
(b) any person certain of whose functions are functions of a public nature,
but does not include either House of Parliament or a person exercising functions in connection with proceedings in Parliament”.
Section 6(5) of the Human Rights Act goes on to provide that,
“In relation to a particular act, a person is not a public authority by virtue only of subsection (3)(b) if the nature of the act is private”.
Therefore, the point is that this is not so much about the name of the body but about determining whether the function is of a public nature. It is the nature of the service or function that is determinative, rather than the legal status of a body that is performing the function. One noble Lord asked whether we could have a definition of that. Ultimately, it must be for the courts to determine whether a body is a public authority, given that definition for the purposes of the Human Rights Act.
The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, said that there may be another time and place to discuss the Crown Estate and the Duchy of Cornwall. I know that the Scottish Affairs Committee in the House of Commons is currently looking at the work of the Crown Estate. It is an issue that has attracted more attention, but as regards this amendment and this Bill the definition is used in the Human Rights Act and is a proper definition to import into this Bill.
I will briefly address a number of government amendments in this group. Amendments 79A and 79C address predecessor claims under the pre-Equality Act 2010 legislation to ensure that legal aid continues to be available to people who have live claims under predecessor equalities legislation, and not just in relation to a contravention of the Equality Act 2010.
At present, paragraph 38 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 limits legal aid cases to cases where the Equality Act 2010 has been contravened. The 2010 Act presents a new unified legal framework for addressing harassment, victimisation and discrimination based on any of eight protected characteristics. Where previous equality enactments have been repealed, we recognise that certain claims will continue to be capable of being brought under these enactments by virtue of the transitional arrangements introduced by the 2010 Act. For this reason, we seek to amend paragraph 38 to allow funding for predecessor claims that might still need the benefit of public funding. This amendment will also amend paragraph 38 to put beyond doubt our intention to retain funding for civil legal services relating to the breach of equality clauses and rules and non-discrimination rules.
Government Amendments 78C, 78D and 78E ensure that civil legal services are provided in circumstances where a sexual offence has actually been committed or is alleged to have been committed. They also ensure that civil legal services are provided in circumstances where a sexual offence has not actually been committed but there has been: an incitement to commit a sexual offence; an offence committed by a person under Part 2 of the Serious Crime Act 2007, in relation to which a sexual offence is the offence which the person intended or believed would be committed; conspiracy to commit a sexual offence; and an attempt to commit a sexual offence.
Additionally, the amendment to paragraph 34 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 will ensure that civil legal services are capable of being provided in relation to conduct that would be an offence mentioned in sub-paragraph (3)(a) or (b) of the existing definition of “sexual offence” but that is not considered an offence under the present definition because it took place before the relevant provision came into force. At present, paragraph 34 limits legal aid to cases where a sexual offence has been committed under the provision of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 and to cases where an offence has been committed under Section 1 of the Protection of Children Act 1978, which deals with indecent photographs of children. We recognise that it is possible that offences committed before the present legislation came into force might need the benefit of public funding, and for this reason we have amended paragraph 34 to allow for funding.
I am not sure why Amendment 90ZZA is in this group, but I hope the Committee will recognise that this is a serious attempt to ensure that where there have perhaps been gaps due to prior legislation, we seek to fill them. Amendment 90ZZA would bring into scope advocacy within the Court of Protection where a person’s mental or psychological safety is concerned. This echoes debates on Amendment 53. The current position is that advice is available for any mental capacity matter and that representation is available for the Court of Protection in limited circumstances where there is to be an oral hearing and the case will determine the vital interests of the individual.
Paragraph 4 of Part 3 provides for advocacy before the Court of Protection where there is to be an oral hearing and the case will determine the vital interests of the individual—for example, medical treatment, life, liberty, physical safety, the capacity to marry or enter into a civil partnership, and the capacity to enter into sexual relations or the right to family life. The amendments go beyond what is currently provided through legal representation by the civil legal aid scheme. We have had to focus our limited resources on the most serious cases and on the interests of the individual that are vital. We do not seek to go beyond what is already the present position. I hope that the noble Lord will reflect on that and, when the time comes, not move his amendment.
It is some time since the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, moved his original amendment, but I hope he is assured that the serious issues involving state public authorities and the citizen are addressed by this. With regard to the liberty of the individual, there are a number of specific provisions, quite apart from the more general provision that loss of liberty is seen as a harm to the individual. I hope, on the basis of these reassurances, that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble and learned Lord for summing up in a very complicated summing-up situation. I am also extremely grateful for the many powerful interventions that were made both immediately after the amendment was moved and during the Minister's summing up. I think that their content has increased understanding and has pointed out many more aspects of the problem than I was able to point out in moving the amendment. Some very serious points have been raised and I think it behoves us all to read very carefully in Hansard what has been said in the House this evening. I think and I hope that it will be possible, having done that, to have a discussion with the Minister and with the officials concerned with this issue before we bring it back on Report. Issues involving people who are in the hands of the state should not be allowed to be dropped until we are absolutely certain that the legislation is clear and protects the most vulnerable who are up against the state. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Independent Monitoring Commission for Northern Ireland
(12 years, 4 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Harris of Richmond
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the final report of the Independent Monitoring Commission for Northern Ireland.
Baroness Harris of Richmond
My Lords, the intent of my Question is to ensure that we do not forget about Northern Ireland and to remind the House that this is still a work in progress. We have a responsibility to ensure that a politically devolved Northern Ireland remains committed to transformation of its society. We spend a great deal of money—£14,000 million, or £14 billion—to help it through this process and it is important that we keep ourselves informed about progress. Since the 26th and final report from the Independent Monitoring Commission for Northern Ireland was presented to the House in July last year, a number of extremely violent incidents have occurred there. Although everyone must be relieved that the appalling terrorist activity has apparently come to an end, it has not completely disappeared and we must be vigilant about any recurrence.
I believe that the IMC has done a fantastic job. It was set up five years after the signing of the Belfast agreement, at a time of great turmoil in Northern Ireland. There was no real political agreement on a way forward and there was a continuing atmosphere of mistrust between political parties. As the report recognises, at the time that the IMC was set up paramilitary groups had not decommissioned their weapons and, although generally not attacking the organs of state, they were still engaged in illegal and often violent activity. Some also had strong links to political parties. Article 3 of the terms of the agreement stated that the IMC was set up,
“to carry out its functions … with a view to promoting the transition to a peaceful society and stable and inclusive devolved Government in Northern Ireland".
It had a very difficult task to perform. During its time it reported on abductions, murders, violence of a terrible nature, robberies on a grand scale—most notably that of the Northern Bank in Belfast—and ongoing feuds between paramilitary organisations.
As well as its six-monthly paramilitary reports, the IMC produced a number of ad hoc reports on various initiatives that it had undertaken, either on its own or at the behest of the Irish and British Governments, and the progress evident through these reports is remarkable. They chart the steady progression towards a normalised society. All those concerned with the IMC over the years are to be warmly congratulated on their work, bravery, dedication and commitment to the building of the very different Northern Ireland that we see today, some seven and a half years since they began their task. I pay particular tribute to my noble friend Lord Alderdice, who is unable to be with us tonight and who was a member of the IMC throughout its term of office.
The IMC’s work must, at times, have been utterly gruesome. Covering a land area not much bigger than that of my home county of North Yorkshire, Northern Ireland had four paramilitary murders and more than 200 brutal paramilitary shootings or assaults in 2005, a year after the IMC started its work. In the seven years since, there have been 21 murders and more than 800 reported casualties of paramilitary violence and a resurgence of serious violence by dissident republicans. Can the Minister tell me how many paramilitary-related incidents have taken place since the IMC's last report was published? How many incidents classed as violence have occurred in Northern Ireland in the past six months, and how does that compare with the preceding six months?
I was privileged last year to meet some of the victims of these crimes. They were cared for and supported by an extraordinary organisation called WAVE, led by a young man called Alan McBride. The organisation offers support to people bereaved of a spouse as a result of violence in Northern Ireland. I met many other truly inspirational people who are doing a marvellous job helping those afflicted as a consequence of the Troubles. My programme was organised by the Northern Ireland Human Rights Consortium, to which I owe a huge debt of gratitude for showing me the magnificent work done by these groups. They all work tremendously hard in desperately deprived areas of Belfast, which we must visit if we are to understand the difficulties that organisations face in their efforts to support those in most need.
Northern Ireland is different. Paragraph 5.6 of the report states:
“Members and former members of all paramilitary groups remain very active in non-terrorist types of crime—a bequest from the Troubles which will dog Northern Ireland for years and will require a substantial continuing effort from law enforcement agencies”.
Perhaps I may ask the Minister how many PSNI officers there are now compared with six months ago, and whether it is the Government's assessment that these numbers are sufficient to ensure the safety of the people of Northern Ireland.
We should never forget how far we have come since 2004, when there were still more than 14,000 British troops in Northern Ireland, occupying 24 bases in an area—I remind your Lordships—not much greater than that of North Yorkshire. Army personnel were based in 13 police stations, and nine sites were used for observation and communications. For 38 years there had been a regular military role in law enforcement—the largest in British military history so far—and the IMC clearly had a huge role in helping Northern Ireland overcome the terrible years of mayhem, when it seemed to many that there would never be peace. However, much still needs to be done and the Secretary of State has promised regular six-monthly reports to the House about progress towards a shared future. Is the Minister able to confirm that a report will be presented shortly?
My sincere hope is that there will be much more integrated education to enable the young people of Northern Ireland to live together, respecting each other’s cultures, instead of being separated as they have been for too long. I pay tribute to the tireless work of the noble Baroness, Lady Blood, who has been an indefatigable promoter of integrated education, as has the noble Lord, Lord Dubs. Neither of them is in their place this evening.
Finally, I will quote again from this excellent report. On page 55, in the section “Looking Ahead”, it states:
“In our view, Northern Ireland should now address its continuing issues by conferring full responsibility on its own political and other institutions. … Paramilitary violence is still a real issue. Dissident republicans are an active and serious threat, especially at the moment against members of the PSNI. … Loyalists … have yet to inspire confidence that they are capable of finally going away as paramilitary organisations, as PIRA has. Some members and former members of all groups remain heavily involved in a wide range of serious crime … presenting a challenge to law enforcement which is significantly more serious than it would otherwise have been. … Northern Ireland's political and other institutions, and the UK Government in respect of national security, therefore have a heavy continuing responsibility to complete the process whereby paramilitary groups finally cease to play a part in society. That responsibility goes wider, to the communities in which paramilitary groups still play a role. … There are some in those communities who have to learn that paramilitary groups hold back their social and economic development and that only by rejecting them and whole-heartedly supporting public and voluntary institutions and the rule of law can they fully throw off the bequest of the Troubles. … The main responsibility for dealing with these challenges rests with the Assembly, the Executive and local politicians, working in conjunction with community leaders, churches, the law enforcement and other public institutions, and ultimately with the people of Northern Ireland as a whole. … It is this inclusive leadership which must now jointly guide Northern Ireland along the rest of the road”.
Baroness Garden of Frognal
My Lords, perhaps I may point out that the timing on this debate is very tight. The minute the clock shows that five minutes have elapsed, noble Lords should sit down; otherwise, other noble Lords will be denied their chance to speak.
Lord Trimble
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, on securing the debate. I also congratulate the four persons who have been commissioners of the Independent Monitoring Commission over the past seven years, and thank them for the excellent job they have done.
Perhaps I may be permitted some purely personal reflections. It was my colleagues and I, during my time as First Minister of Northern Ireland, who suggested to the Government that such a body should be created. We did this in more specific terms, saying that as we had an oversight commissioner for the police and one for the justice system, we should have one for paramilitarism. The proposal evolved somewhat after it was originally made. I am sorry to say that when we put it to the Government we encountered fierce resistance from the Northern Ireland Office. Indeed, I remember a very senior member of the Northern Ireland Office saying to me that he was not going to have some other person overseeing what he did. He was quite right to have that concern because, while one put the proposal in terms of having independent reportage and oversight of what paramilitaries were doing, the whole object of the proposal was to try to curb the behaviour of the Northern Ireland Office, which unfortunately at times was not satisfactory. Respect for the Northern Ireland Office hit bottom when a Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, after a paramilitary murder, dismissed it as merely “internal housekeeping” by a paramilitary organisation. That sort of licence to murder was something that no government Minister should have been issuing. We were worried about the way in which the Northern Ireland Office would allow expediency and other political considerations to affect what should have been the administration of justice.
It took quite some time before the concept was formally announced in, I think, July 2002. A few months before, there was a crisis that resulted in the suspension of the Northern Ireland Assembly, and I have always felt that if we had had this body in existence before then, we might very well have avoided that collapse and the consequent nearly five-year hiatus in the institutions in Northern Ireland. But it came, and it had a very positive effect.
I do not want to try to go over all the detail, but I must say that my eye was caught by a sentence on page 45. The Independent Monitoring Commission says that one of the tasks it set itself right at the outset was to deal with the ceasefire mentality, which in its view had,
“for too long been used to obscure and avoid the challenging implications of the Belfast Agreement: that there had to be a complete severance between politics and paramilitary activity, and that this could come about only if those paramilitaries ceased to act as such”.
I have to say that it was not just the ceasefire mentality that was used to obscure those implications; there were political parties working overtime trying to obscure them. I am thinking primarily of Sinn Fein and its allies, but it was quite shameful at the time that there were some unionists who supported that activity by Sinn Fein by assuring it that the republican paramilitaries were not under any obligation to decommission or to cease to exist at that time. Thankfully, they have changed their opinion, but it took some time before that happened.
In opening, the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, said that we still have a responsibility with regard to these matters, and that is right. She also mentioned the expenditure that we engaged in. I notice that the expenditure of the Independent Monitoring Commission averaged out at less than £1 million a year. I venture to suggest that very few million pounds have been spent in Northern Ireland so usefully and to such good purpose, and I do not think it would have caused any great difficulty for government expenditure if that had continued. It was—as I read this report, and obviously this is a matter of interpretation—largely at the instance of the British and Irish Governments that the commission was wound up. I regret that. I think there is still a valuable role that it could have taken. If we are now without that, it increases the responsibility on us to see that this matter is not forgotten. Speaking to me earlier, the noble Baroness said that the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland said that he was going to make regular reports to Parliament on these matters. I hope that happens and that we in this House get an opportunity to receive and to repeat such reports and to scrutinise them effectively.
Lord Browne of Belmont
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, for tabling this Question and thus facilitating what I am sure will be a fair and balanced discussion of the role and nature of the Independent Monitoring Commission. Over the past seven years, the IMC has had a challenging and onerous task, one that I believe it carried out with scrupulous independence. During that period, the commission published 26 separate reports. In many instances, they were strongly criticised by commentators in the media and by politicians of all parties. However, it is now generally accepted that the IMC’s conclusions were fair, unbiased and based on the best available evidence derived from careful and meticulous investigations. I did not envy its task. When the facts or circumstances that it presented rebutted a publicly accepted assumption, the commission members were often pilloried by politicians and in the press. The task of publicly presenting uncomfortable truths, often when the peace process in Northern Ireland was known more for its fragility than for its stability, was as controversial as it was unpalatable, but without the IMC we would not have attained the necessary levels of public trust and confidence to allow the restoration of the devolved institutions in Northern Ireland in 2007. Without the IMC, the two communities in Northern Ireland could not have been convinced that their political enemies would make a positive contribution towards the creation of a better society for all. For that, I am very thankful.
In conclusion, I should mention the IMC’s final report, which focused, unfortunately, on civil disturbances of a sectarian nature in east Belfast, the constituency that I represented for 25 years at council and assembly level. I had very much hoped that events of this nature had been relegated to history, and the report was indeed disturbing and depressing to me. Nevertheless, I take comfort from the fact that both communities continued to co-operate, the men of violence were sidelined and a descent into a spiral of sectarian violence was avoided. Perhaps we may conclude therefore that the fair and balanced final report of the IMC contributed in no small measure to achieving reconciliation between the two communities in Northern Ireland. Perhaps the Minister will agree that the greatest achievement of the commission is the general agreement in Northern Ireland that it is no longer required.
Baroness O'Loan
My Lords, I would like to express my thanks to the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, for securing this debate. I would also like to pay tribute to the members of the commission, who have done a wonderful job in securing the trust of the people by the way in which they went about their work.
The commission's 26th and final report includes three important issues. The first is that a “culture of lawfulness” is,
“evidently lacking in communities dominated by paramilitaries”.
The second is that,
“Dissident republicans are an active and serious threat ... Some members and former members of all groups remain heavily involved in a wide range of serious crime”.
The third is that,
“The fundamental principle of the Northern Irish peace process … is that politics is the way to address communal challenges and to draw the whole society into full acceptance of the institutions of democracy”.
Our troubled past still impacts on our perception of the rule of law. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, did valiant work as co-chair with Denis Bradley on the Consultative Group on the Past. They identified areas in which action was necessary, from memorials to storytelling to victims. There has been no real movement since the publication of that report three years ago. We currently have a perception that there are people who have committed crimes for which they have not been made amenable, so the two issues are the application of the rule of law and the responsibility of politicians. The systems currently established for dealing with the past involve three institutions, each of which may be involved in one case: the Historical Enquiries Team, the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland and the Police Service of Northern Ireland. This is a cumbersome set of arrangements and is beset by legal difficulties for all parties, which inevitably result in significant cost.
So how do we manage the past? The difficulties are perhaps best explained by reference to two recent developments. The first is the publication under the 30-year rule of papers relating to the hunger strike in 1981. IRA spokespersons have consistently insisted that no concessions were made by the Thatcher Government which were sufficient for the hunger strikers to bring an end to the hunger strike. The published material contradicts that assertion. It appears to indicate that lives could have been saved. Despite the facts that some of those involved are still alive, there is no threat of prosecution and that no amnesty is required, we do not have an agreed version of what happened. The second involves the recent controversy surrounding the British application for the tapes recorded by former IRA member Dolores Price and stored in an archive at Boston College in the United States. Since making that tape, Ms Price has indicated that she drove a number of the disappeared to their deaths at the hands of the IRA. Police investigating the abduction and murder of Jean McConville, a mother of 10, require access to the tapes for investigative purposes. The Boston project was predicated upon assurances that the tapes would not be disclosed until after a period of 30 years, or the death of the individual. It is obvious that such assurances could not lawfully be given. Journalists and academics are subject to the rule of law as the rest of us are, and material can and will be recovered by the police according to the law for investigation purposes.
It is now being suggested that the only way to deal with the past would be a truth commission, with an amnesty for all individuals who appear before it. To suggest this is to ignore international law, which provides that you can have no amnesty for gross violations of human rights. The South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which is often held up as a model, would not satisfy the requirements of international law. If we did what it did, we would have to establish an amnesty committee that would sit in public, before which people would have to appear to seek amnesty, and in the course of which they could be cross-examined by victims and their families. In South Africa 7,000 people applied; 849 were granted amnesty. Such hearings in Belfast could hardly be expected to consolidate the peace process. The consequential truth commission would hear testimony from individuals who chose to appear. Experience to date suggests there would be a very low participation rate.
Let us go back to the investigations. A number of impediments exist. Offences committed before 1998 can only carry a maximum sentence of two years. The Northern Ireland Arms Decommissioning Act provides that you cannot use anything recovered from the process of decommissioning. The Northern Ireland (Location of Victims’ Remains) Act provides that you cannot recover anything that may be found in the process of recovering the body. A number of people have also been dealt with under the Royal Prerogative of Mercy, and a variety of pardons have been granted to an unknown number of people. Our situation is as complex as that of most post-conflict societies. We need to establish the rule of law in order to limit the ongoing prospect of further recruitment by the dissidents, and further recruitment and criminality by loyalist paramilitaries.
If we accept that we cannot just allow people to tell their stories to journalists with impunity and without challenge, because the law does not permit that; if we accept that a truth commission is unlikely to be able to provide blanket amnesties, because the law does not permit that; if we accept that the hands of investigators have been tied, what is left? There is the normal activity of storytelling; and there is a single independent unit to investigate all the unsolved murders of the past in an attempt to pick up from where we are now and to carry forward the investigation of individual cases in a coherent manner—accepting that few of them may lead to prosecutions but that the families will be told what can be told.
We still face a significant challenge in Northern Ireland. The warnings of the IMC are very clear. Our politicians and our people have a duty to act. What positive action can the Government take to encourage this?
Lord Lexden
My Lords, as I read this clear, calm, measured report, one thought above all kept coming back to me: that the commission which produced it was a remarkable body to which not just Northern Ireland but the whole country owes a considerable debt. It is deeply satisfying that the House has been given this opportunity to pay tribute to it, thanks to my noble friend Lady Harris of Richmond.
The commission had no precedent, no previous example of similar work to guide it. Nothing like it had been seen in these islands before. Drawn from three different countries and from diverse backgrounds, those who served on the commission were clearly people of great honour and probity and not a little ingenuity. The report shows that they worked closely and successfully together, despite—or perhaps because of—the absence of a formal chairman, an interesting aspect of the commission’s operations that should be noted.
The commission was independent in name, and in every deed and action it performed. Its independence was the secret of its success—combined of course with the care and impartiality with which it examined the vast amount of material drawn from both official and private sources that was placed before it. As a result, its statements and views commanded widespread respect—the more so since they were delivered crisply and frankly.
The commission’s final service was to provide a lucid summary of its own seven-year career. It is surely invaluable to have this record of unprecedented experience. Other countries afflicted by division and politically motivated violence may wish to consult and learn from it. The IMC model may not be transferred wholesale elsewhere, but it could prove immensely helpful to others facing circumstances of civil strife. The commission itself declared that:
“We are least well placed to judge our impact and future historians will have most to say about it”.
Speaking as a current historian, I am sure that these future historians too will feel gratitude for this report when they come to form considered historical judgments on the violence that racked Northern Ireland for so long. It would be surprising if they did not accord a position of some prominence to the IMC when tracing the factors that finally brought about the diminution of Ulster’s agony.
The commission had other important functions, but it is likely to be remembered chiefly for the thoroughness and rigour with which it monitored the paramilitary violence that continued after the formal declaration of ceasefires by terrorist organisations. As its report states,
“we sought to bring out the human cost of paramilitary groups, in terms of both the immediate victims of their crimes and the way in which they held back the economic and social progress of the communities they claimed to represent”.
The completely impartial way in which it did this enabled the commission to give positive assistance to Northern Ireland’s progress towards greater normality, particularly in the years 2004-05, when the evidence it produced of continuing links between the IRA and Sinn Fein intensified pressure on the latter to commit itself more firmly to the democratic path. The commission also put the loyalist paramilitaries under significant pressure, exposing the details of the violence in which they remained involved while at the same time, as the report puts it, they sought to play,
“a continuing role in community development and wanted public funds for the purpose”.
In its characteristically restrained and modest prose, the commission declared last year as it took its leave that:
“The position as we close is very far from ideal”.
The shadow of the gunman still falls too darkly and heavily over the people, particularly those in poorer communities, in Northern Ireland. The so-called peace walls, those potent emblems of division, have increased, not diminished. The Police Service of Northern Ireland continues to have a formidable duty of community protection before it, and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is providing an extra £200 million over four years to assist it in this task during this time of national austerity.
What our fellow countrymen and women in the Province need above all is a cross-community political strategy for a shared future. The Independent Monitoring Commission’s report welcomes the establishment of an inclusive devolved Government. With it now rests the main duty of creating,
“a genuinely shared future; not a shared out future”,
as my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has put it. Sadly, the Northern Ireland Executive has so far shown insufficient resolve in rising to this challenge. It must take some serious decisions if the people of Northern Ireland are to enjoy to the full the legacy of the work done by the Independent Monitoring Commission.
Parliament must itself keep abreast of the activities of the Executive to help it secure progress. We must not repeat the error made after 1920 under the Province’s first system of devolved government, when Parliament closed its eyes to the internal affairs of this part of our country. As the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, said at the outset, we must never forget Northern Ireland.
Lord Empey
My Lords, I join with others in thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, for securing this debate.
The inception of the IMC was primarily a confidence-building measure. It was negotiated at great length, and one person who deserves some mention for it, as I hope the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, will know, is her right honourable colleague, Paul Murphy, who played a significant role as Secretary of State and Minister of State in Northern Ireland. As my noble friend Lord Trimble said earlier, during the negotiations we found there were those who did not want it to shine a light on some of those people who were conducting very unsatisfactory activities right across the Province.
The reality was that when eventually it did come on the scene, late in the day as it was, the IMC was derided and criticised. It was referred to as a paper or toothless tiger that would never gain the confidence of people in the community. However, as all noble Lords who have spoken so far have conceded, it made a very significant contribution to the progress that has been made.
As I have said to the Minister—and I hope that he will respond to this when he answers—I feel that it was premature to wind the commission up at this stage. I suspect that it was never intended to last for seven and a half years but, nevertheless, it successfully shone a light consistently and independently on all paramilitary organisations. It held their feet to the fire, despite the fact that some of them were negotiating for money to keep organisations that they particularly sponsored going, whether it was from a community point of view or otherwise. Someone was there always to look, to see, to point out and to report on what was going on. That is missing at present.
Some months ago, the Secretary of State called a meeting to which a number of us were invited and attended. Will the Minister confirm that the Secretary of State will follow that up with another meeting and that they will be held regularly so that members can be briefed on the details as the Government see them? My noble friend Lord Lexden made a very valid point. In the 1920s, once the devolution had settled and the Parliament for Northern Ireland was established, it was effectively the end of the story and people turned their minds to other things. We must not allow that mistake to be made again.
We all understand that money is tight and that £800,000 or whatever a year is still a lot of money. I accept that. But set that sum against the colossal financial and other costs that were borne by this entire community and the very many victims in Northern Ireland, in my view it was money well spent and a small price to pay for an independent guarantee. Because governmental and other material had been put into the public domain, people did not believe that there were some people—and I pay tribute to all of them—who were not afraid to say that a particular group or organisation was doing what it was doing.
I have to say to noble Lords that the paramilitaries still are the role models for many young males, particularly in deprived areas, because there are no others. They fall into the trap and even the dissident republicans are now recruiting among teenagers. Indeed, some of them have already been arrested and charged.
I believe that the commission deserves to be congratulated. I am glad that we got it going and I am sorry that it did not come earlier. I am also glad that those who derided it found, ultimately, confidence in its decisions. It is a good thing and, while this chapter has now closed, at least it is something in which those who participated can take pride in the work that they have done.
Lord Bew
My Lords, like other noble Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, for securing this debate. She is well known to be a good friend of Northern Ireland and her work in bringing about this debate is yet another example of what a good friend she is to the Province. I, too, should like to recall briefly the struggle to set up the IMC. I very much agree with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Trimble. The truth of the matter is that the IMC was not enthusiastically received in the early days of debate by the Northern Ireland Office or the Irish Government. It is hard to recall that now because it has been so successful.
I should like to pay tribute in particular to Michael McDowell, a former Nieman fellow at Harvard and recently an official at the World Bank, who from his position in a Washington think tank kept No. 10 Downing Street under siege with regular e-mails arguing vigorously for the establishment of the IMC in the months leading up to its appointment. Today, I was talking to Jonathan Powell, Mr Blair’s chief of staff at that time, who recalled honestly the weight and significance of Michael McDowell’s constant advocacy. It is important to pay tribute to the work that he put in on that absolutely crucial issue.
Turning to the report itself, I should like it to be understood in your Lordships’ House that the report is not an answer to questions about where Northern Ireland is now and how we move it forward. It is instead an answer to the different question: what was the modus operandi of this body? As the IMC was a unique body, it may be important to describe how it worked. The report is an attempt to answer that question, rather than being in any real sense prescriptive about the future of Northern Ireland, and it is entirely right that that should be and is so. There are a number of conclusions to the report where members of the commission outline what they think are the key lessons.
Perhaps slightly impertinently, I should like to add a further lesson, which one should draw from the experience of the IMC—that is, a willingness to take it on the chin. The degree of criticism and abuse that the IMC received, particularly in the earlier years, was quite remarkable, as well as the strong refusal of many people in Northern Irish society to accept that it could perform a viable role or could be considered to be, in any sense of the word, independent. One of the remarkable things about the report is the way in which it quotes from some of those testimonies, including an article in the Irish News, the leading nationalist newspaper in Belfast, on 29 November 2008, which stated:
“In reality, British intelligence operates through deceit, dishonesty, murder, blackmail, double-crossing, cheating, conniving and downright thuggery. It may sound harsh but there is simply no other way to run an intelligence service. Their use of loyalist paramilitaries and informers beat the PIRA. So the intelligence agencies will tell the IMC whatever it takes to bolster support for the current political administration. That is what intelligence services do, which means that the IMC, and other opinions based on supplied intelligence are effectively worthless”.
That is a common enough comment from this period. It is a mark of the calibre of the IMC and the people who served on it that it reprinted that quote. They took this kind of thing on the chin because that was what they had to do and then carried on with their work in a steady way.
Finally, I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, would not mind that we should mention the names of the other members of the commission: Joe Brosnan, of the Department of Justice in Dublin; Dick Kerr, an important figure in American intelligence; and John Grieve, who had such a distinguished career in our police service.
Baroness Smith of Basildon
My Lords, we owe a debt of gratitude to the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, for the opportunity for an invaluable and very interesting debate on the final report of the IMC. The debate is an opportunity to reflect on the changes tracked by the IMC since it was established in 2004—changes which, despite strong commitment from the British and Irish Governments, and the Northern Irish political parties, some doubted could be made. Indeed, once the process of change began, the pace and degree of change from some of darkest and most frightening of times is quite remarkable. It is remarkable that today a new generation is growing up with no memory of those times or how great the threat of terrorism was across the whole of the UK, both in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The final report reflects on this and has a wealth of factual information and analysis.
As we have heard, the IMC was established in 2004 following agreement between the British and Irish Governments. Its monitoring activity of paramilitary groups provided 20 of the 26 reports; the remaining five reports on security normalisation culminated with the conclusion that,
“the normalisation programme as a whole has been complied with”.
Despite perhaps understandable cynicism from some quarters, the Government ensured that the IMC had detailed information from the Army so that the IMC could monitor its normalisation plans. It is evident that the independent assessments of the IMC on normalisation and paramilitary activity helped to create the climate for the British and Irish Governments and the Northern Ireland political parties to edge closer to the next stage of meaningful dialogue.
The initial fears from some republicans that the IMC would investigate only republican paramilitary activity were disproved in the very first report, when it concluded that loyalist groups were at that time responsible for higher levels of violence than republican groups. However, despite enormous progress on the political and paramilitary front, we share the IMC’s deep concerns about the attacks and threats to PSNI and its assessment of non-terrorist crime.
I have to say to the Minister that it is disappointing that to date the only response from Government to the report has been the Written Statement from the Secretary of State, Owen Paterson, on 4 July 2011 when the report was published—although it was completed in March. The Secretary of State praised the IMC and expressed his gratitude for its work and, recognising the problems that remain, wrote:
“I am conscious that Parliament and the public will wish to be kept informed of progress on a regular basis. I therefore intend to make statements to Parliament every six months summarising the threat”.—[Official Report, Commons, 4/7/11; col. 76-77WS.]
It is now just over six months since that commitment was given. Can the Minister tell us when we can expect the first of those reports? I appreciate the work that has to be undertaken to prepare such reports, but given the seriousness of this issue, they are essential.
The final section of the report, “Looking Ahead”, provides evidence that encourages but also gives concern. Circumstances, as we have heard, have changed significantly both in paramilitary activity and the stability and responsibilities of the devolved institutions. However, paramilitary activity has not disappeared, but changed. Dissident republicans are active and a serious threat, particularly against the PSNI, as we have seen, with horrendous consequences. Although loyalists have decommissioned, albeit with varying degrees of success, the IMC is not confident that they have finally disbanded as PIRA has, and they remain involved in serious and organised crime. The IMC's conclusion is that the level of serious crime is worse than it would otherwise be, and presumably worse than in other parts of the UK, because those involved learnt their “trade” in the most violent of times. However, it should also be recognised that policing has changed and that there are now unprecedented levels of co-operation between the PSNI and the Garda in the Republic.
The report’s second conclusion is positive and encouraging in recognising that the,
“stable and inclusive devolved Government”,
has now jointly to guide and lead Northern Ireland, along with community leaders. It is also implicit, as indicated by the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Lexden, that co-operation must continue throughout the UK and within the Republic of Ireland. The continuing level of violence means that we cannot be complacent, because an increased level of violence has implications not just for Northern Ireland but also for Great Britain and the Republic of Ireland.
Can I make a final plea to the Minister and his Government? Stability in Northern Ireland is precious. Many people, some in your Lordships' House this evening, have worked very hard for a better, peaceful Northern Ireland and continue to do so. But Northern Ireland is bearing a heavy burden, with £4 billion of cuts and the greatest loss of public sector jobs in the entire UK. I urge the Government to think very hard about the impact of these cuts—the increase in unemployment and the increase in poverty—on a society seeking to deal with these other pressures that we have spoken of. All of us want a stable and inclusive Northern Ireland, but we also need a more prosperous Northern Ireland. To achieve that, the Government need to work with the Executive, not through their economic policies make it harder for them, especially given the backlog of investment that is needed.
I thank the IMC. The House needs to recognise that it did not have an easy task, but the way in which it conducted the responsibilities is to be praised and we should express our appreciation to all who were involved in it.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
My Lords, I am grateful to your Lordships for the quality of the contributions made to this debate this evening.
It might be helpful to begin by providing some background to the IMC and its functions. Your Lordships will recall that it was founded as a result of an international agreement between the British and Irish Governments signed in November 2003. This stemmed from the joint declaration of the two Governments in April of that year. The commission was formally established when the agreement came into force on 7 January 2004.
Four commissioners were appointed: the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, and John Grieve were appointed by the British Government; Joe Brosnan was appointed by the Irish Government; and Dick Kerr was appointed by both Governments on the nomination of the United States Government.
The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, cannot be with us this evening to contribute to this debate. I know that he would have relished the opportunity to have detailed his experiences first hand, as we would have relished hearing from him. However, I take this opportunity to thank him for the important work completed by the commission and pay tribute to him for the role that he played alongside his colleagues and for that commitment over the seven-year period of its existence.
The commission’s remit was to monitor and report on paramilitary activities, on security normalisation and on any claims that any Minister or party in the Northern Ireland Assembly was not committed to democratic means. Having completed its remit, the commission was formally dissolved on 31 March 2011.
Tonight’s debate, however, concerns the IMC’s final report. I am sure your Lordships will be aware that it was very different from earlier ones. Rather than addressing the issues of paramilitary activity or security normalisation, the report focused on the changes that had taken place during the seven-year period of the commission’s existence. It also provided its assessment of the factors that helped it to deliver its remit and the lessons learnt.
The report is therefore a valuable document. It will be of interest to those who have been and continue to be involved in the peace and political process in Northern Ireland as well as to those who are involved in conflict transformation around the world. I am grateful to the IMC for this contribution and I am sure that it will be a document that has considerable longevity.
Your Lordships will of course also be interested in the detail of the earlier reports, 20 of which covered paramilitary activity and the other five security normalisation. With the time available to me this evening, it is not possible to go into any great depth, but it is worth highlighting, as did the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, how far the landscape in Northern Ireland has changed since the IMC’s creation in 2003.
The Provisional IRA’s statement in July 2005, which announced the end of its armed conflict was, of course, a defining point. As the then Prime Minister, Tony Blair, said, it was a “step of unparalleled magnitude”. In response to that statement, the Government undertook their security normalisation programme. That process was to last two years.
As I mentioned earlier, the IMC was obliged to report on that process. In September 2007, the commission published its 16th report, which confirmed that the Government had honoured their commitments and that the normalisation process was complete.
I am sure you will agree that the IMC played a crucial part in supporting and enabling historic changes in Northern Ireland over the years. It has assisted Northern Ireland's transition to a peaceful, stable and inclusive society, and we should not forget that.
Perhaps I may address the points raised by noble Lords. On paramilitary-related incidents, I can confirm to the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, that during the first six months of 2011, which is the period up to the final report, there were 30 paramilitary-style attacks and in the whole of 2011 there were 73. That compares with 94 in the whole of 2010. On 1 January 2012, 7,136 officers were employed by the PSNI, whereas in the previous July there were 7,197. So there are slightly fewer. However, the Government remain fully committed to ensuring that the PSNI has the necessary resources. Indeed, the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, referred to the fact that an additional £200 million has been put in by the British Government. Matt Baggott, the Chief Constable of the PSNI, has said that the service has,
“the resources, the resilience and … the commitment”,
to meet the threat.
On the Secretary of State’s undertaking to update the House regularly on threat levels, I can confirm that he has already done this in response to Oral Questions and other questions, but he will also make a Statement to Parliament in the coming weeks. I tried to go a little further, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, is also interested in this. The word “soon” is a good word and I shall have to stick to that, but I do not think that we will have to wait long for this further information. As she has indicated, work has to be done and this has to be prepared.
The noble Baroness talked about progress towards a shared future. The Government will do all that we can to support the work of the Executive, especially in the key areas of rebalancing the economy and combating sectarianism, but the lead certainly has to come from Northern Ireland.
There was fulsome praise from one or two noble Lords for the work of the IMC. Many noble Lords—the noble Lord, Lord Empey, got closest to this—asked whether the work is really done and whether it should have been kept going a bit longer. If noble Lords refer to the document, they will see that Article 16 states:
“The Agreement shall continue in force until terminated by mutual agreement”—
that is, the British and the Irish Governments’ mutual agreement, which was agreed on 4 November 2010. We must remember that monitoring the British Government’s commitment to a package of security normalisation measures was dealt with and signed off, as it were, under Articles 4, 5 and 6. In addition, no party in the Northern Ireland Assembly has claimed that a Minister or Member has not committed to non-violence, so that has not been a consideration in seven years because no one has said, “This is someone we should be looking at”. We therefore return to what has taken the most time: the continuing activity of paramilitary groups. That is the one area that obviously still causes concern, the other two areas having been dealt with.
I have indicated that the British and Irish Governments have agreed that the agreement must come to an end, but if noble Lords look at page 55 of the 26th report, they will see that it is quite clear that the team at the IMC also takes that view. Article 15.1 states:
“The institutions designed to facilitate transition to normality—of which we are one—are of their nature abnormal and Northern Ireland has reached a point when it is right for them to leave the stage”.
Clearly, the IMC has seen its work as monitoring the paramilitary groups that were linked to political organisations and believes that that has been achieved. The area that has not been achieved is calling a halt to dissident activity. The IMC and the Government are now saying that that is now a role for the law enforcement institutions of Northern Ireland.
Baroness O'Loan
With respect, I would like to point out that the report indicates that there is ongoing loyalist activity as well as ongoing republican activity.
Lord Shutt of Greetland
I do not know whether I said dissident republican—I think I said just said “dissident”—but if there is dissident activity, whether loyalist or republican, that is embraced in my remarks.
Although it is not really a matter for this particular debate on the IMC, I understand the real concerns of the noble Baroness, Lady O'Loan, about dealing with the past. The Secretary of State intends to meet the political parties in Northern Ireland again to seek views on how consensus can be found. While this Government have a role to play, any successful outcome will be possible only if agreement is found within Northern Ireland.
I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, that the 26th report is a really impressive document. It was a pleasure to read it in the sense that the team had really considered how the seven years had been spent. It may well be of interest to lots of people to understand how we came to undertake what we have been doing. I see the point that he makes.
I think that I have covered most of the points. I clearly agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, that stability is precious and that the economy is important. Of course, in her initial remarks, my noble friend Lady Harris raised the point about the incredible resources that come from the taxpayer to support Northern Ireland. Noble Lords will be aware of the work of my right honourable friend in the other place who has certainly taken the initiative in rebalancing the economy and on corporation tax. We discussed that on an earlier occasion.
I think I am out of time and that I should conclude on that. If there is anything that I have not covered, I shall endeavour to write to noble Lords. In the words of us all, we thank the IMC for a piece of work well done.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
(12 years, 4 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Butler-Sloss
“Victims of trafficking of human beingsCivil legal services provided to a victim of trafficking in human beings (“V”) in relation to—
(a) rights to enter or remain in the UK;(b) an employment claim relating to the experience of trafficking; (c) a claim for damages relating to the experience of trafficking; or(d) compensation relating to the experience of being trafficked under the criminal injuries compensation scheme.”
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, the Minister may be relieved to hear that these are the last two amendments in my name. They refer specifically to human trafficking, a very special part of the Bill. I declare an interest as the joint chairman of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Human Trafficking. In moving Amendment 61A, I must also refer to Amendment 90A, which I hope noble Lords will consider to be self-evident from the wording.
The European Union directive, which the Government have signed up to, to everyone's delight, has in Article 12(2) and Article 15(2) the requirement for legal aid provision and legal assistance. If the Minister will forgive me, I want to quote the words of Article 12(2), which are very similar to the words in Article 15(2), which deals with adults. The directive states:
“Member States shall ensure that victims of trafficking in human beings have access without delay to legal counselling, and, in accordance with the role of victims in the relevant justice system, to legal representation, including for the purpose of claiming compensation. Legal counselling and legal representation shall be free of charge where the victim does not have sufficient financial resources”.
There is very similar wording on children in Article 15(2).
The Government also signed the European convention prior to the European directive. Article 12(1)(d) requires a party—that is, the United Kingdom—to provide,
“counselling and information, in particular as regards their legal rights … in a language that”,
the victims of trafficking in persons can understand.
That is the background to the four matters raised in the first of the two amendments, which aims to provide civil legal services to victims of trafficking in relation to rights to enter or remain in the United Kingdom, employment claims, claims for damages in the employment tribunal, damages in the county court or possibly the High Court, and compensation under the criminal injuries compensation scheme.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, I support these amendments with great enthusiasm. The noble and learned Baroness referred to the convention, and at the end of her remarks she referred to the government strategy which I think was published in the middle of last year. That, as I read it, has two limbs: one is to deter and disrupt trafficking; and the other, quite explicitly, is improved victim identification and care. These amendments fall absolutely squarely within the strategy that has already been articulated.
Trafficking by its nature is very largely hidden. It seems that as the unwilling but nevertheless host country in which victims find themselves, we have a number of duties. One of those duties is to enable these people to use the facilities of the state. The issues that have been listed in these amendments would fulfil that obligation. The noble and learned Baroness referred to migrant domestic workers. Those who may have been trafficked to work in cannabis farms or sometimes in restaurants—in the kitchens, not where you see them—would have similar sorts of claims. I do not want to repeat all the points that have been made or turn this into a hearts and flowers argument, as I see it as a matter of duty and central to what the Government have already identified.
Lord Howarth of Newport
I am in total sympathy with the amendments that the noble and learned Baroness has tabled, but I wanted to ask her whether she envisages that victims of trafficking who might make employment claims could also include people who are employed by gangmasters in conditions of well nigh slavery, fruit-picking or cockle-picking.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
I certainly saw the amendment as broad as that, and they may very well be able to do it through the employment tribunal. The great problem is that the employment tribunal will no longer have legal aid.
Lord Judd
I warmly commend the amendment, which I think will receive strong support from all parts of the House. The Bill in general is open to the awful charge of shifting the burden of our economic difficulties on to those who already in their lives face disproportionate difficulties and hardship. This is a particularly nasty and mean provision within that general strategy. These people are victims. They are not people who have just transgressed the law; they are victims of cruel, harsh and cynical treatment. If this country stands for anything, it must surely stand for ensuring that such people get some kind of justice after the experiences to which they have been exposed.
Lord Avebury
I would like to say a word on migrant domestic workers. First, I congratulate the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, on the wonderful work that she does on the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Human Trafficking, which has been influential on helping to shape government policy on trafficking, which has as she said made enormous strides in recent years.
The particular case of migrant domestic workers is subject to a consultation being undertaken by the Home Office. From what I have heard, the Government are moving towards ending the special status of migrant domestic workers on the basis that, as the Home Office considers, employers who want to have domestic servants should employ people from the European Union and pay them the national minimum wage. This is a fantasy when you consider that many lawyers are at present already breaking the law by bringing in people under other headings, such as students, and then transferring them to domestic slavery.
The particular case that has been drawn to our attention many times by Kalayaan, the organisation that defends the rights of migrant domestic workers, is that of people who bring in domestic workers as visitors accompanying them when they enter the country. They get leave to enter for six months, which in many cases is enough to meet the needs of the employer, but in some cases they remain on as overstayers after that period. If the Government move in the direction that I have suggested, there will be an enormous increase in the number of people brought in illegally by the employers in this way. They will really need the support that they can get only from having access to legal aid, because by definition if they manage to escape they will be destitute. They will have the support of NGOs such as Kalayaan, but without access to the courts they will be deprived of remedies that we think are their rights.
I very much welcome the amendments tabled by the noble and learned Baroness and hope that if the Government cannot accept them in precisely the form as they are tabled today, they will find some way in which to meet this need.
Lord Bach
My Lords, we absolutely support the noble and learned Baroness in her amendments in this group. Very few crimes engender more opprobrium or anger both within and between Governments than crimes involving human trafficking. It is dispiriting that even today the illegal trade of people in this form still exists and perhaps even flourishes.
As the noble and learned Baroness said, we should rightly be proud that the international community has worked together to promulgate the protocol to prevent, suppress and punish trafficking in persons, especially women and children, adopted by the United Nations in Palermo in 2000. I am proud again that nine years later our country ratified the Council of Europe Convention on Action against Trafficking in Human Beings. The noble and learned Baroness quoted from part of that convention. The quote that I have is from Article 15 of that convention, to which she referred. She quoted from Article 12, I think, but Article 15.2 says:
“Each Party shall provide, in its internal law, for the right to legal assistance and to free legal aid for victims under the conditions provided by its internal law”.
It goes on at paragraph 4 to say:
“Each Party shall adopt such legislative or other measures as may be necessary to guarantee compensation for victims in accordance with the conditions under its internal law, for instance through the establishment of a fund for victim compensation or measures or programmes aimed at social assistance and social integration of victims, which could be funded by the assets”—
and it goes on to describe those assets. It is a pity that the Government have, so far at least, shown a somewhat less generous view of their obligations.
The Government stated in their response to consultation on this matter:
“There will be instances in which the Convention”—
meaning the Convention on Action against Trafficking in Human Beings —
“requires legal aid to be provided to victims of trafficking to fund their claims. However, we estimate that the volume of these cases is likely to be small and any obligation to provide legal aid will be met by the proposed new exceptional funding scheme that will provide legal aid where failure to do so would be likely to result in a breach of the individual’s rights to legal aid under the Human Rights Act 1998”.
The feeling around the Committee seems to be, and I very much share it, that that approach on this matter is unacceptable. Neither is it worthy of our legal system and our commitment to access to justice. It is not enough to rely on the Human Rights Act 1998 and say that anything that might not be in breach of it is somehow okay.
If legal aid is taken out of scope, it threatens to force victims of trafficking—acknowledged by the Government as some of the most vulnerable people in our country—to navigate an unfamiliar system in a language they may not understand, when they are almost certainly highly distressed and seeking legitimate redress against their persecutors. The noble and learned Baroness described the state of a number of those who had suffered in this way. To abandon them in the way that the Government intend, if this Bill were to go through unamended, for such small savings would be a violation of our positive obligations under the treaty and of our obligations under any sensible framework for deciding when the state should provide legal advice to those who need it.
If I use an unparliamentary expression, forgive me, but this amendment really should be a no-brainer. Victims of trafficking deserve not just our compassion and help, but that of the state when they require it. If we take the Government's own analytical framework for decisions on scope for legal aid, this would seem to be a group that perfectly fits the criterion of a,
“physically or emotionally vulnerable group”.
ILPA, the immigration lawyers’ association, described this group as a kind of paradigm of that criterion and I hope that the Committee would agree.
As far as the gateway to which the noble and learned Baroness referred in opening this short debate is concerned, it must always be remembered that the gateway is there only for matters that remain in scope. In any matters that come outside scope, the person who receives a phone call from a would-be client has to say, “I am sorry, this is not in scope”. Maybe they will give the name of some solicitor or other but they will not be able to take it further themselves, because the matter is out of scope. How horrific it would be if this matter became out of scope, so that even when a telephone call was made—and that is not the most satisfactory way of doing it—they could not be helped.
Secondly, some years ago the noble Baroness, Lady Young of Hornsey, who is not in her place and the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, among others, came and saw me about an issue in a criminal justice Bill that was going through this House which involved this sort of vulnerable victim. They asked us to take some action in regard to it. It was not to do with legal aid or anything like that, but I mention it because we listened to what they had to say. The arguments then were powerful; they are very powerful tonight on behalf of this group. I very much hope that the noble and learned Lord will at least take this away, and consider whether the Government cannot make what would be generally received as a very acceptable concession, if concession is the word, to the present wording of the Bill. Given all the difficulties the Government have and the criteria they set down, I ask them to reconsider their approach to this group of people. These are very powerful amendments indeed.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord has had the professional experience that I have had, where somebody who is faced with a claim which may result in quite a hefty award of compensation or damages against him finds that his mind is quite concentrated. That in itself is a very significant deterrent to continuing in the business, and trafficking is a business.
The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)
My Lords, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, indicated when speaking to her amendments that they were the last two that she had in this section. None the less, in dealing with vulnerable people, their importance was obvious by the end of the debate that they engendered. The more that I have learnt about human trafficking over the years, the more appalled and outraged I am by some of the abuses that go on. Various conventions have been acknowledged, such as the Council of Europe Action against the Trafficking of Human Beings, to which the previous Administration quite properly signed up.
Amendments 61A and 90A intend to bring into scope particular areas of legal aid for victims of human trafficking. Amendment 61A would give the victims of such trafficking legal aid for immigration matters as well as for damages in compensation claims in relation to the experiences of trafficking before the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority, the civil courts and the Employment Tribunal. Amendment 90A would allow for publicly funded advocacy for victims of human trafficking in cases that they bring before the Employment Appeal Tribunal.
On the immigration element of Amendment 61A, the first point to make is a general one that was reflected in one or two contributions. In many cases, victims of trafficking want to return home. In some cases, though, they wish to claim asylum, and, for that, legal aid will remain. It is important that that point is made clear. There may be other occasions where they need to remain in the country, perhaps to help police with their investigations or on compassionate grounds if there are compelling reasons for that. There are provisions for victims to remain in these circumstances.
As the Committee will know, the Government provide funding of some £2 million per year to the Salvation Army to provide support to victims of trafficking so that they can rebuild their lives. This includes signposting and informing victims of their rights to stay in the country, whether in the short or long term. However, we believe that specialist legal advice in respect of immigration on top of that is not required. Nevertheless, the Salvation Amy and its subcontractors signpost and inform victims of their legal rights.
Government funding also helps to inform people about their options regarding compensation as a result of trafficking, whether through the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority, the civil courts or the Employment Tribunal. Compensation orders, too, can be made at the end of a criminal trial.
For the civil routes to compensation, which a number of contributions have revolved around, the Government made it clear in their response to the consultation on legal aid reform that the route for funding in these cases would be the exceptional funding scheme, and published guidance will reflect that. In fairness, the noble Lord, Lord Bach, acknowledged the Government’s position, although he did not agree with it, and it would be unfortunate if this debate gave the impression that all avenues of funding have been cut off or withdrawn.
The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, asked whether it would be possible to make claims against traffickers and whether those claims would be funded. The answer is yes—they are capable of being funded through exceptional funding. This is because the right to legal support for compensation claims, as set out in the convention, is with reference to the requirements of Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights and is therefore very much in line with the exceptional funding test. It is important to recognise that there is a route for funding for people who find themselves in these circumstances.
Amendment 90A would allow for advocacy for victims of trafficking in employment appeal tribunals. The noble and learned Baroness raised the question of the consultation on visas for domestic workers, a point picked up by my noble friend Lord Avebury. My understanding is that a Home Office consultation has taken place; as far as I am aware, no response has yet been published, but I will certainly ask officials to ensure that the comments made on that important point are drawn to the attention of those at the Home Office who are dealing with the consultation.
With regard to the Employment Appeal Tribunal, it has been observed that some very large awards can be made. Again, however, such cases would in principle be funded through the exceptional funding scheme if required by not only the European Convention on Human Rights but European Union law. The exceptional funding scheme is available in these cases—it is not the case that support has been withdrawn. There are other means of support for those who have been trafficked. As I have said, the Salvation Army has made efforts to support and assist them. Therefore, I ask the noble and learned Baroness to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, may I first thank noble Lords for their substantial and much appreciated support for these two amendments? The Government are undoubtedly to be congratulated on their strategy. They are also to be congratulated on opting in to the directive. It is the directive to which the Minister has just referred and it is the leading matter that we have to consider. The convention matters but the directive is part of English law and requires,
“access without delay to legal counselling, and … legal representation”.
I have to say that I am disappointed by the Minister’s response. The Salvation Army, which got the contract for this work, is doing excellent work but it is expected to look after these women—they are generally women—for only up to 45 days. The fact that, out of the goodness of its heart, it keeps some of these people far beyond 45 days is not in the contract that the Government have with them. The Salvation Army is not in a position to put forward a case for exceptional funding, for instance. Until we see what sort of regulations and instructions are given to the director of legal aid about how he or she is to operate exceptional funding, I would be very unhappy that one can just say that any victim of trafficking who wanted to make a claim against traffickers, or against the CIB, has to go through the exceptional funding route. It may be extremely difficult to get into it and even more difficult to be recognised within it as someone who is in an exceptional position.
Who is going to do that for a non-English person? We ought to look after our own people but we also ought to look after the people brought here against their will, or brought here misleadingly with promises that turn out not to be true. They are, in effect, dumped here or they escape. We have to look after them; we have a legal and moral duty to do so. Unless the Minister is able to say in due course that exceptional funding will specifically include claims by victims of human trafficking, his response will be inadequate. I should like him to go away and discuss with his advisers—and perhaps, as I asked a little earlier, with the Lord Chancellor—whether this very special and very small group of people should be specifically identified. I do not mind whether they are identified under exceptional funding or elsewhere, but they must not be left out on a limb. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Gould of Potternewton
My Lords, in moving Amendment 62 I shall speak also to Amendments 63 to 67, 69A and 70A. I am delighted to follow the noble and learned Baroness and the previous debate. This is an added dimension, which also relates to a very small number of very vulnerable people. I shall try to explain it simply because it is complex but I will do so as well as I can, not being an expert in immigration rules, rather as the noble Lord, Lord McNally, is not an expert in the subject. However, there are principles here that it would have been impossible to avoid.
I start with the purpose of Amendments 62 to 67. These six amendments need to be considered together. They extend the legal aid protection provided by paragraph 25 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 to victims of domestic abuse whose immigration status is dependent on their abusive partner. Paragraph 25 currently provides for legal aid for migrant victims of domestic abuse whose leave to enter or remain is dependent on their relationship as the partner of a British citizen or person with indefinite leave to remain so that they may have legal aid to help them address the consequences to their immigration status of escaping the abusive relationship. These amendments would extend the same protection to migrant victims of domestic abuse whose immigration status is dependent on a partner who is exercising European free movement rights or on a partner who has limited leave to enter or remain. The Government have indicated that they are considering the first of these extensions—that related to European free movement rights—but not the second. I must add that the amendments stop short of providing legal aid in relation to immigration for any victim of domestic abuse but are restricted to those who are lawfully in the UK, where their lawful presence is dependent on that very relationship in which they are experiencing abuse.
Several organisations, including Rights of Women, the National Federation of Women’s Institutes, Southall Black Sisters and the Moroccan Women’s Centre, have highlighted the situation of victims of domestic abuse who face being trapped in an abusive relationship because their immigration status is dependent on that relationship and they fear the immigration consequences of seeking to escape. However the Government have already amended the Bill to provide legal aid for some of these victims. For instance, it now provides for victims who are dependent on British citizens and settled persons. The Government have agreed to give further consideration to other victims as yet left out of the Bill, such as those dependent on European Economic Area nationals and others exercising free movement rights, those dependent on migrants with limited leave to enter or remain and those dependent on migrants whose status is irregular. Each of these classes of victim face the same or similar difficulties to the class of victim for whom the Government have now made provision in the Bill. Those difficulties were described by the Minister for Legal Aid. He said:
“There is a real risk that, without legal aid, people will stay trapped in abusive relationships out of fear of jeopardising their immigration status. The type of trauma that they might have suffered will often make it difficult to cope with such applications. We also appreciate that people apply under great pressure of time, and access to a properly designated immigration adviser is a factor”.—[Official Report, Commons, Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill Committee, 19/7/11; col. 245.]
Therefore, the Minister identified four factors relevant to why legal aid should be provided in the cases to which he was referring: the risk that the victims will stay trapped in abusive relationships for fear of jeopardising their immigration status; the trauma they may have suffered which often makes it difficult to cope with the application; time pressures that apply to immigration proceedings; and difficulties of access to a properly designated immigration adviser. These factors are borne out in that domestic abuse-related immigration applications are far from straightforward.
Further, the exclusion of some victims from legal aid offends the Government’s own factors which they identify as needing to be taken into account. They include the fact that the UK Border Agency’s record in dealing with these cases is especially poor with some 61 per cent to 69 per cent of refusals being overturned on appeal; the gathering and presentation of evidence, with associated costs and risks, is often necessary for success; many applications are, sometimes wrongly, refused by the UK Border Agency on the grounds of inadequate evidence; to escape abusive relationships victims need to understand the implications for their immigration status; victims need immigration advice; only regulated advisers can provide this advice and without advice and assistance many victims will not find the confidence to escape their abuser. The Bill risks the undesirable outcome that victims of domestic abuse will remain, with their children, in abusive relationships for fear of the immigration consequences of escaping those relationships. The fact that the Government have decided to deal with some aspects but not all for people in this situation adds to the confusion. I hope that the Minister will clarify that. However, I genuinely believe that Amendments 62 to 67 would overcome the problematic and dangerous outcomes that will occur due to the present state of the Bill.
I turn now to Amendments 69A and 70A that together would ensure that those who have experienced gender-based violence are able to access immigration advice and representation and are not placed at risk of experiencing further violence and abuse. The amendments would protect children, victims of domestic violence and trafficking, as well as other groups who are at risk of gender-based exploitation such as migrant domestic workers to whom the noble and learned Baroness referred. They would also protect others whose ability to represent themselves in an immigration law issue is impaired because of their age, illness or disability.
The amendments would also confer a power to specify other classes of persons in regulations. The “specified person”, as referred to in Amendment 70A would include children, victims of trafficking and victims of gender-based violence—men as well as women. The Government made the decision to bring back into scope legal aid for victims of domestic violence applying for indefinite leave to remain in the UK under the domestic violence rule—rule 189A of the Immigration Rules. Announcing that decision, the Minister for Legal Aid, said,
“There is a real risk that, without legal aid, people will stay trapped in abusive relationships out of fear of jeopardising their immigration status”.—[Official Report, Commons Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill Committee, 19/7/11; col. 245.]
How that can be said over and over again and yet not followed through, I find difficult to accept.
The concerns raised by the Minister apply equally to other vulnerable applicants in immigration cases who have experienced or are at risk of violence and abuse, who simply cannot be expected to represent themselves in applications effectively because of the trauma they have experienced. These include individuals who have been trafficked into the UK for the purposes of sexual or other exploitation, and migrant domestic workers—many of whom, as the noble and learned Baroness said, are trafficked into this country and are extremely vulnerable to exploitation and abuse because of the invisible nature of their work that takes place in private households, and who, because of their dependency on their employers for their work, accommodation and immigration status, can be exploited by their employers and find themselves in a very similar position to victims of domestic violence.
I am told that there were around 15,000 migrant domestic workers issued with a visa to work in the UK in 2010. I am horrified to hear that there might be a move to remove their right to a visa. Research shows that 41 per cent of migrant domestic workers cite abuse or exploitation as their reason for changing their employer, but under the Bill legal aid will not be available for them to seek advice on how to regularise their immigration status or, if they wish, to change their employer.
Equally, victims of domestic violence whose immigration status may not be dependent on maintaining an abusive relationship with their spouse may also be vulnerable to remaining in a violent relationship if they cannot access legal aid to regularise their immigration status. Rights of Women indicates that it receives many calls to its immigration and asylum law advice line from women whose leave is not dependent on their spouses, yet their insecure immigration status is still used by the perpetrator as a tool of control.
All these cases raise complex issues and affect particularly vulnerable women whose fundamental human rights, including the right to be free from inhuman and degrading treatment, are at risk. Yet what sets these cases apart from other areas of law is that there are no alternative advice providers because it is a criminal offence for anyone to give immigration advice or services unless they are qualified to do so. Removal of legal aid for the cases such as those I have identified will place women at greater risk of violence and prevent those with valid legal reasons for remaining in the UK being able to access and benefit from their legal rights.
This is not a marginal problem, because between 1 April 2009 and 31 March 2011 there were 1,481 referrals to the National Referral Mechanism, the national framework for the identification of human trafficking in the UK. We know that, in reality, the figure for individuals trafficked is likely to be higher. A further implication of the Bill is that they will not be eligible for legal aid because of the implications of being referred into the National Referral Mechanism, and therefore their informed consent for referral may be questioned.
My information from Rights of Women is that it hears countless testimonies from women whose immigration status, which is often reliant on their abusers, has restricted their ability to leave a violent situation and access the advice and support services that they need.
Without legal advice and representation, domestic violence victims, migrant domestic workers and trafficked victims remain reliant on misinformation from their abusers about their legal rights and status and are trapped and dependent upon violent relationships, placing their lives at risk. The amendments together would ensure that those who have experienced violence are able to access legal aid for immigration advice and representation.
For too many women, their insecure immigration status is still used by the perpetrator as a tool of control. That cannot be justified. The amendments would eliminate that position. I beg to move.
Baroness Gale
My Lords, I speak in support of the amendments and thank my noble friend Lady Gould for speaking to this group in such a comprehensive manner. What we are discussing today is not whether we should have more or fewer immigrants; rather, the matter at hand is whether legitimate migrants are able to exert their rights.
Amendments 62 to 67 work together to extend the availability of legal aid for immigration matters. The Government have proposed that legal aid will be available to a person seeking indefinite leave to remain after suffering domestic abuse by their partner. Furthermore, their partner must be present and settled in the United Kingdom. My noble friend Lady Gould's amendments would extend that to someone who is seeking any form of leave to remain, and their partner would not necessarily need to be present and settled in the United Kingdom. So they only fractionally extend the coverage to ensure that all women who suffer domestic abuse and try to escape will be given the protection they need. A failure to accept the amendments would mean that some women might feel trapped in an abusive relationship, wanting to escape from it but knowing that, because they slip through the Ministry of Justice's legislative cracks, they would not get the help that they would need.
Amendments 69A and 70A would extend legal aid to immigration matters relating to entering or remaining in the country for three classes of persons: those under 18; those who have been subjected to gender-based violence; and those unable to represent themselves due to a physiological or psychological condition. Amendments 69B and 70B would extend legal aid to immigration matters relating to entering or remaining in the country for those under 18.
We support all the amendments. I am pleased that my party's position is that immigration matters should remain in the scope of legal aid to the same extent that they are now. That forms part of our overall commitment to keeping social welfare legal aid fully in scope by re- tendering criminal legal aid contracts in line with our 22 March 2010 paper, Restructuring the Delivery of Criminal Defence Services. Unamended, the Government's approach means that significant cracks will form in the provision of immigration law legal aid. Many claimants with very good cases will fail to exert their rights legitimately because of the current proposals’ failures. My noble friend Lady Gould's package of amendments clearly demonstrates one of these cracks.
A failure to accept the amendments might mean that people could be forced into accepting domestic abuse for fear of losing their children, their friends and the life they live in the United Kingdom. It could be regarded as a charter for abusers because of the difficulties that women will face in removing themselves from an abusive relationship. It will lead to chaos in the immigration system. Legal aid advice and representation oil the system, allowing interactions to occur professional to professional. Our system, which some would regard as creaking under the weight of poor decision-making and a high volume of cases, cannot afford this kind of radical deprofessionalisation.
I have one final, quite specific question for the Minister. Will Clause 9 funding be available for vulnerable children in complex immigration cases? The Government’s long-standing position is that Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights does not apply to immigration, and I believe that that would prevent these cases ever being funded under Clause 9. This ties in somewhat with Monday’s debate on the needs of young people.
I urge the Minister to listen to what has been said tonight. Earlier, the noble Lord, Lord McNally, proved to be in a listening mood when he replied to the debate on domestic violence and child abuse. The aim of this amendment is perhaps of a similar nature in that it deals with women suffering from domestic abuse. Therefore, I urge the Minister to continue in the vein of the noble Lord, Lord McNally, this afternoon when he said that he was prepared to listen—and indeed it seemed to me from his responses that he was listening. I hope that the Minister will continue to listen tonight. Noble Lords who have put their names to this group of amendments should be confident that if the Minister does not listen, we would support the amendments if they were brought forward at a future date, and we would take our own position on the provision of immigration law legal aid.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, first, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Gould of Potternewton, for introducing the amendments, and I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, who encouraged me to listen. I hope to indicate later that in some respects we have already been listening.
Amendments 62 to 67 propose to make an amendment to paragraph 25 of Part 1 of Schedule 1. This paragraph provides for those applying for indefinite leave to remain on the grounds that they have limited leave to enter or remain as a partner of another individual present and settled in the United Kingdom and that the relationship has broken down permanently as a result of abuse. Such matters are to be within the scope of legal aid. The arguments regarding partnerships which have broken up and the power relationship that can result were very well made.
Amendment 62 seeks to extend the scope of legal aid to those applying for “leave to remain” as opposed to “indefinite leave to remain”. Amendment 65 seeks to remove the need for a person’s partner to be present and settled in the United Kingdom, and Amendments 66 and 67 are consequential amendments, removing the definitions of “indefinite leave to remain” and “present and settled in the United Kingdom”. We do not believe that these amendments are necessary. The provision as currently worded in the Bill is directly linked to Rule 289A of the Immigration Rules, which deals with applications for indefinite leave to remain by victims of domestic violence on a limited spousal visa. This is deliberate: other than via the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006, the appropriate route for someone to apply would be through the Immigration Rules. Where the person’s partner has only a temporary form of residence, it is not clear that they intend, or indeed whether they would have a right, to reside more permanently in the country. As such, we do not believe that these cases require funding.
Amendments 63 and 64 relate to partners of EEA nationals, known as third-country nationals, and are similar to an amendment raised in the House of Commons—I think that the noble Baroness mentioned the debate that took place there either in Committee or on Report. These amendments are intended to bring within the scope of civil legal aid services applications from partners of EEA nationals who require confirmation of their right to reside in the United Kingdom where their relationship has broken down permanently as a result of domestic violence, as well as any subsequent appeal. EEA nationals and their family members, if from a third country, have a long-term right to reside in the United Kingdom if they are economically active or are able to support themselves without becoming an unreasonable burden on public funds.
The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006 make provision for family members to remain in the United Kingdom; that is that their right to reside can continue if they cease to be a family member of an EEA national because their marriage or civil partnership, on the basis of which they are a family member of an EEA national, breaks down as a result of domestic violence. The application is different for those people who apply for indefinite leave to remain under the domestic violence provisions in the Immigration Rules, where the rules that apply are different.
Nevertheless, as has been pointed out, and as my honourable friend, Mr Djanogly, has said, we will look further at this point. I indicated earlier that we believe that some of the initial concerns raised are covered and we do not believe that the amendments are necessary. However, it is only reasonable, in the light of what was said by the noble Baroness, Lady Gale, that we ensure that we have addressed the points which she made in that regard.
Amendments 69A and 70A deal with making legal aid available to certain categories of vulnerable persons for immigration matters. I think there are another two amendments in this group which have not been moved but I shall try to deal with them. Part of Amendment 70A —that which seeks to cover those persons who have suffered domestic violence at the hands of spouses or partners—is already covered by the Bill at paragraph 25 of Part 1 of Schedule 1, where the application for indefinite leave to remain in the United Kingdom meets the requirements of that paragraph. We decided that, on reflection, the issues faced by those facing domestic violence were such that special provision should be made for them. Without legal aid, there is a real risk that such people will remain trapped in an abusive relationship for fear of jeopardising their immigration status. Furthermore, they have only a limited window in which to submit their immigration application when they leave their partners and after that period their access to public funds ceases. However, these factors do not apply to other categories of vulnerable persons that have been suggested in the amendments.
As we have indicated on numerous occasions in these debates, we believe that we should target legal aid on those who need it most. In general, we want to prioritise asylum cases, which can be about life and death, over immigration cases. I do not deny for a moment the importance of such cases to the individuals concerned, but they do not raise the same issues.
Children will not normally be applicants in asylum and immigration cases, as they are usually considered as part of their parents’ application. Child applicants are much more likely in asylum cases, for which, of course, legal aid will remain available. Most immigration claims are straightforward and, in the majority of cases, we expect the child, with the help of a guardian, to be able to complete the process without recourse to specialist help. The noble Baroness, Lady Gale, asked about children's applications, their interaction with Article 6 and whether exceptional funding would be available. The answer, as I think she anticipated, is that it would not. The position in the Bill is that exceptional funding should be granted only where it is required by law; that is that denying legal aid would risk a breach of an individual's rights under EU law or the ECHR. Case law has been consistent: that immigration cases do not, as she indicated, involve such a determination and, as such, exceptional funding would not be available.
I have sought to try to give some reassurances and I urge the noble Baroness, Lady Gould, to withdraw her amendment.
Baroness Gould of Potternewton
I thank the Minister for his reply. In some ways, I am partially encouraged by the reply but I also find it extremely complex. I need to go away and read it very carefully and then I shall be able to answer whether I am satisfied or not. In the light of that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Avebury
Lord Avebury
My Lords, these amendments, supported by the Immigration Law Practitioners’ Association, which assisted in their drafting, were tabled to draw attention to and to remedy the inconsistency of the Government in claiming to protect legal aid for people whose liberty is at stake, while denying those who are liable to detention, pending their removal or deportation, the means to assert their claim before the tribunal constituted for that purpose.
Lord Bach
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, has made a very powerful case for the amendment that he has so ably moved. We support it from the opposition Front Bench, very much for the reason that he was arguing in the latter part of his speech: the complete mismatch between being allowed to get legal aid to get advice on detention but not being able to get any advice as to the underlying reasons why an individual is detained.
The Government are quite right to have recognised that legal aid is crucial when an individual’s liberty is at stake, and we see that principle in existence here in their preparedness to allow someone who is in detention to get legal advice to challenge that detention. However, how on earth can they challenge that detention—and this is the point the noble Lord was making—without also getting legal advice as to the underlying cause of that detention? It does not look as though this could work properly in practice. The Government are trying to hold fast to two principles: that an individual’s liberty demands legal aid advice; but, when that matter is looked into, the reason behind their loss of liberty cannot be advised on in the same way. The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, is quite right: some really serious mistakes will go uncorrected if this provision goes through.
To make the point absolutely clearly—and this is the point that ILPA seems to have made—challenging immigration detention is inextricably linked to challenging the immigration decision that forms the justification for detention. If the Government want to help those detained wrongly—presumably they do; no one wants to have people detained wrongly—it is pretty self-evident that they should deal with the underlying problems. A failure to do so will simply mean a return to detention—a complete waste, frankly, of public money.
Although I have been brief, we on this side believe that the noble Lord, Lord Avebury, and the others who signed the amendment have a very good point. I would like the Minister to explain to the Committee how these provisions can actually work in practice. It looks as though there is a serious mismatch between what they will and will not allow legal aid for in this field.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Avebury for moving his amendment, which relates to issues of immigration and detention. Amendments 68 and 70 would bring into scope of legal aid several legal services in relation to rights to enter and remain in the United Kingdom for anyone who is liable to be detained under the immigration powers.
As a preliminary to his arguments my noble friend suggested that, if the Government wished to save money, we should tackle the UKBA’s decision-making. The UKBA already has a wide-ranging improvement programme under way to continue to improve the quality of its decision-making in asylum and entry claims and in points-based systems, although I would be the first to acknowledge that in any programme like that there is always scope for improvement.
Lord Avebury
In one respect, I can agree entirely with my noble and learned friend and that is that I am wholly dissatisfied with his reply, as he expected. If we are helping those who need help most, who could possibly be higher on the list than somebody who has been detained and is therefore incapable of conducting his case effectively? As I said—my noble and learned friend did not address this point—how does he get in touch with witnesses and how does he get the money for the telephone calls, for duplicating of papers and for all the rest of the preparatory work that needs to be done in formulating a proper appeal?
Nor did my noble and learned friend address my point that there were likely to be more cases where a person was unjustifiably refused if he did not have representation—and that comes from the figures. We know that in other types of case there is a much higher percentage of success where the appellant is represented than in cases where he conducts the case himself. The same figures would be seen if it was possible to distinguish between the two categories in immigration cases. Therefore, it follows that if people do not have representation when they are in detention, more of them will unlawfully be sent back to the countries of their origin. I think that my noble and learned friend missed the point that I made in relation to the case of the Dutch citizen of Somali origin who was threatened with deportation but was able to get representation. The solicitor showed that it would have been unlawful to deport him because he was not a Somali citizen but a Dutch citizen of Somali origin. If he had been able to appeal only against his detention, it would have to be a two-stage process. Would my noble and learned friend not agree that he would first have to obtain his liberty and then get a solicitor to point out to the tribunal that he was not liable to deportation because the UKBA had falsely assumed he was a Somali citizen?
I am most grateful for the support of the noble Lord, Lord Bach, for the amendments. As he said, there is a complete mismatch between the facts that a person can obtain legal aid for his detention but not for the underlying reasons for the detention in the first place. I see that we will have to return to this subject on Report and I shall have to discuss what we do about it with ILPA and our other advisers. For the time being, I have no alternative but to beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
“(1A) Civil legal services provided to an individual for a matter arising out of any rule laid down under section 1(4) of the Immigration Act 1971 making provision for family members to enter or remain in the United Kingdom as the family member of a refugee or beneficiary of humanitarian protection.”
Lord Thomas of Gresford
My Lords, I must apologise to my noble and learned friend for failing to address this issue when it was listed at an earlier stage. Amendment 69 is also supported by the Immigration Law Practitioners’ Association, which does such tremendous work in this very difficult field and not for any great return. It is to be commended.
Amendment 69 would retain legal aid for applications and appeals by family members of refugees and family members of those who are found to be at risk of serious harm such as torture but are not granted humanitarian protection for a refugee convention reason. The legal aid would be for applications and appeals for those reunited with a refugee recognised in the United Kingdom. When a person is recognised as a refugee or granted humanitarian protection, they are entitled under the Immigration Rules to apply to have certain family members, spouses, partners and minor children to join them. Such persons may themselves be living in danger in the country of origin, may be refugees themselves or may be living in a precarious situation in a third country. There are considerable parallels with asylum cases, which remain within scope. Without this special provision in the rules, refugees would have to wait until they were settled to have their families join them and would have to fulfil additional criteria.
Someone who is granted humanitarian protection is at risk for some other reason than the refugee, who is at risk by reason of,
“race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion”.
These cases concern family reunion for persons whose applications for international protection have been found to be well founded and to whom the United Kingdom’s protection has been extended. The UNHCR stated in a report published in June 2010:
“Family reunification plays a significant role in meeting the long-term needs of resettled refugees … The family is often the strongest and most effective emotional, social and economic support network for a refugee making the difficult adjustment to a new culture and social framework”.
When in another place my right honourable friend Simon Hughes urged the Government to bring refugee family reunion back into scope for legal aid in this Bill, the Minister with responsibility for legal aid then acknowledged that these cases can be complex. He said that he would look further into those cases. That was an assertion made in another place and we are hoping that we will hear a little more on that in this Chamber.
Several factors contribute to the complexity of these cases and the need for legal aid to be retained. First, as my noble friend Lord Avebury and others have pointed out, the United Kingdom Border Agency's record in dealing with these applications has been especially poor. Some 61 per cent to 66 per cent of refusals are overturned on appeal. It is a terrible result for a government department that 61 per cent of its decisions are found to be wrong. Secondly, the often precarious situations of applicant families overseas and the distress and trauma of sponsoring refugees in the UK mean that they are particularly ill placed to make and pursue applications by themselves in British consulates in other countries.
The United Kingdom Border Agency also frequently disputes family relationships and accordingly many applications are protracted and evidentially complex. It alleges bad faith that the person concerned is not related. But the UK Border Agency loses 61 per cent of its cases. On appeal, the immigration judge is confined by the evidence presented to him, however careful he may be to treat litigants in person. Of course, when you are dealing with applicants who are abroad, the hearing is restricted by the absence of the family members at the appeal hearing. They are still overseas and therefore cannot be called to give evidence. Continued separation is a major obstacle to a refugee’s integration into the United Kingdom.
Refugee family reunion applications are complicated by the fact that not all applications are permitted to be made under the rules. Child refugees cannot secure family reunion and must rely on applications made outside the rules. There are all sorts of complex problems relating to family members. At the end of the day, it prevents the person who has been accepted and is able to enjoy the protection of this country from settling down and becoming integrated into our society.
Amendment 71 deals with matters that we have already covered. It is almost an omnibus provision that deals with refugee family reunion, on which I have just addressed your Lordships, to immigration matters concerning trafficking victims, which we addressed before the dinner break, and onward appeals relating to immigration—a matter that I raised at the outset of the Committee deliberations. I beg to move, and I trust that my noble and learned friend will have his responses ready.
Lord Avebury
I warmly support my noble friend in this amendment. I reinforce what he has already said by reference to a note issued by the UNHCR dated November 2011, which I presume has been drawn to the attention of my noble and learned friend the Minister. Has he been approached directly by the UNHCR on these matters? If so, what was his response? I very much look forward to hearing from him. He is nodding, which I presume means—
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I was trying to indicate that I did not pick up what my noble friend said. I would be grateful if he could he repeat the question.
Lord Avebury
I was saying that I hope that this note, which we have all received from the UNHCR, has been sent by the UNHCR representative in the United Kingdom to noble Lords on the Front Bench. I look forward very much to knowing how they have replied.
As my noble friend has already pointed out, the UNHCR is concerned because, although the safeguarding of asylum seekers’ access to legal aid is being retained, it is worried about the way in which the Bill limits access to legal aid for families of refugees who seek to rejoin their family members in the United Kingdom. The UNHCR notes with concern that,
“the current proposals exclude legal aid for family members of persons who have been recognised as refugees or people who have been granted humanitarian protection”.
I cannot think of a more powerful agency to make representations of this kind than the UNHCR. It almost goes as far as to say that it is a breach of the refugee convention to deny legal aid to the family members. As my noble friend pointed out, the UNHCR believes that,
“reunification of the family unit plays an important role in ensuring the protection and well-being of individual members of a refugee family”.
It goes on to describe the adverse consequences that may follow from the denial of legal aid for these purposes.
One point on which I think I should add to my noble friend’s comments is on disputed family relationships, which are frequently a matter of continued difference between the UKBA and the applicant and which have to be resolved by reference to, for example, DNA evidence. The UNHCR asks how the costs of evidence gathering and the private legal fees that have to be borne in connection with this process can be borne by the refugee and his family. It notes that,
“the Government’s response during the consultation stage was that family reunion applications are ‘generally straightforward’ and that an alternative for family members is to claim asylum in their own right”.
However, the UNHCR points out that, since a refugee family are still outside the United Kingdom, they are not able to claim asylum in their own right—they would have to travel illegally to the United Kingdom to make such an application. Is that what the Government want them to do? It seems to me that, by denying them legal aid, the Government are inciting them to break our immigration laws and enter by some other means in order that they can claim asylum here in their own right. This cannot be right, and I hope that my noble friend will consider these amendments very seriously.
Lord Bach
My Lords, I can be very brief. The arguments put forward for these amendments are very powerful and I have nothing to add to them, save to say that this relates to families, and one of things that this Government claim—as all Governments do, quite rightly—is their faith in the family. It would be slightly ironic if the Government went on with the Bill as it is now published, in terms of the effect that this may have on refugee families, when they have the answers given to them by the exception provided for in the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. We think the Government should accept his amendment.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, Amendment 69, moved by my noble friend, seeks to bring family reunion cases into the scope of legal aid. In recognising the purpose of the amendment, I also wish to indicate that the anticipated cost of that would be around £5 million a year.
Such cases involve a person who has been granted asylum and sponsors the applications of the immediate family to join them here in the United Kingdom. Applications to join family members are immigration applications rather than asylum ones. This may to some extent respond to the point made by my noble friend Lord Avebury when he indicated that there was an encouragement to people to come in as illegal immigrants and to be asylum seekers. I have repeated on many occasions that asylum will come within the scope of legal aid, but it is widely recognised that navigating the laws is far more complex than is intended to be the case with regard to immigration applications in such cases.
Lord Avebury
I may have misled my noble friend. What I was pointing out was that it was the Government’s own suggestion that family members should claim asylum in their own right and that the only method by which they could do so was to enter the United Kingdom by some unlawful means so that they could claim asylum.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I hear what my noble friend says. I will check, but I was not aware that the Government had encouraged people to come in in those circumstances. The point that I was about to make was that UK Border Agency guidance in these cases, when people are coming in under an immigration route, is that it sets out presumption of a grant of an application if the relevant criteria are met. The evidence required, such as marriage and birth certificates, should not require specialist legal assistance to collate. Indeed, the entry clearance officer may on occasion ask for DNA testing to prove a family relationship, but in these circumstances the test will be free of charge to the applicant.
These cases do not require specialist legal advice and, as we have indicated with other immigration cases, it is not necessary for them to remain within the scope of civil legal aid. Nevertheless, I recognise what my noble friend Lord Thomas of Gresford said in moving his amendment. In spite of the fact that most cases should be relatively straightforward, as my honourable friend the parliamentary under-secretary Mr Djanogly indicated, there are some cases which are complex—I would certainly repeat what he indicated in the other place—so we will look at this again. I say this without wanting to raise an expectation, but it is important that we look at the issues where there are complex cases, and I undertake to look at that aspect again.
On Amendment 71, as my noble friend indicated we have dealt with most of these issues in the course of the evening. I am prepared to elaborate on the answers again, but perhaps he could just take as read the answers given in respect of those cases. Again, the issue relates to the fact that, as a general rule, we have taken the view that, unlike cases of asylum, where legal aid will be in scope, in cases of immigration the number of cases that turn on a point of law are relatively low and the cost of funding them is one that we believe can be better applied and applied in a more focused way on cases where the needs are greater.
On the question asked by my noble friend Lord Avebury about the UNHCR letter, I do not recall seeing the letter and nor does my noble friend Lord McNally. However, it is my understanding that Mr Djanogly has not only seen it but replied to it and has done so in the terms in which I have replied to the debate. In those circumstances, I ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
I am grateful for the assurance that the Minister has given that he will look at this matter again and consider what the attitude of the Government should be in complex cases involving family reunification.
I would point out that, on the question of claiming asylum, the Government said in their response to the consultation:
“Applications to join family members are treated as immigration cases, and are generally straightforward because they follow a grant of asylum”.
That is what my noble and learned friend told us just now. The Government’s response went on:
“Respondents argued that these cases are akin to claims for asylum … if a person wishes to claim asylum it is open to that person to do so either as a dependant of a primary asylum claimant or to do so in his or her own right. Legal aid for any such asylum claim will be in scope”.
As my noble friend Lord Avebury has said, the family members with which this amendment is concerned are outside the United Kingdom and cannot claim asylum unless they get here. The only way that they can get here would be through some hazardous and clandestine journey to get to this country and make a claim. It would be unlawful under the Immigration Act 1971 for a person in this country, including a person who has been granted asylum, to assist them in any way but if they can get here and claim asylum, they then apparently get legal aid to fight their claim. That seems ludicrous. I am sure that my noble and learned friend, in considering the matter further as he has promised to do, will take that into account, but for the moment I beg leave to withdraw this amendment.
“( ) situations where a person’s financial difficulties could lead to loss of home.”
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I shall also speak to Amendments 82ZC and 82D in the name of my noble friends Lord Bach and Lord Beecham. In so doing, I declare an interest as chair of the Consumer Credit Counselling Service, the country's leading debt advice and solutions charity.
Under the proposals in the Bill all legal aid for debt issues, including advice, is excluded from the scope of legal aid except for legal services provided in relation to a bankruptcy order against individuals under Part IX of the Insolvency Act 1986, where the individual’s estate includes their home. As I understand it, the Government's view is that debt advice is not strictly legal work and that financial matters are a far lesser priority than matters such as homelessness or loss of liberty.
We disagree. All debt problems are underpinned by complex contractual obligations, and debt advisers typically need to advise debtors on issues of liability, consumer credit contracts, creditors’ enforcement powers, statutory debt remedies and enforcement processes within the court system and beyond. While some debt advice may appear to be primarily negotiation over repayment terms and schedules, it is important to note that in fact such negotiations take place within a legal framework such as protections under the Consumer Credit Act. It is also true that the experience of my charity, the CCCS, and others in this field, such as Citizens Advice, is that most if not all of those who contact us for debt advice have other issues, such as illness, employment problems or relationship problems, which have either caused the problem or contributed to it. It is this compounding effect which makes the withdrawal of legal aid for all debt issues seem such a simplistic proposal.
Other areas where we consider that there is a good case for retaining legal aid are the important debtor protections under consumer credit legislation, which allows unfair or mis-sold consumer credit agreements to be legally challenged and ensures that citizens can challenge enforcement actions. However, I mainly want to focus on a clear lacuna that will be left from the withdrawal of legal aid for debt in relation to statutory debt relief remedies. Debt relief orders, or DROs, were introduced by Part 5 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 as a quicker and cheaper alternative to bankruptcy for those with no income and no assets. They require application via an approved intermediary working for organisations which are approved by the Insolvency Service. Approved intermediaries are experienced debt advisers who are often legal aid-funded debt caseworkers.
Lord Best
I shall speak to Amendment 72 and make the case for legal aid in housing cases beyond those where someone faces imminent loss of their home.
The private rented sector has no regulator, in stark contrast to the social housing sector, nor is there an ombudsman to consider complaints against private landlords as there is for complaints against housing associations and council landlords. There is a voluntary ombudsman scheme for complaints about managing and letting agents, and I declare my interest as chair of the independent council of the Property Ombudsman. However, that redress scheme—
Lord Beecham
Is the noble Lord speaking to Amendment 72 or Amendment 72A? Amendment 72 is about debt.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
I do not think the noble Lord should worry. At this time of night it becomes a bit of a blur for us all.
Amendments 72 and 82ZC would bring into scope debt matters that are not covered in Schedule 1 and which we intend no longer to fund. We are faced, as we have said before, with tough choices in this current fiscal climate, but this has allowed us to focus resources on those who need them most in the most serious cases where legal advice and representation are justified. We estimate that we will continue to spend around £50 million on social welfare law overall.
Amendment 72 relates to paragraph 28 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 and appears to be aimed at making legally aided advice, assistance and representation available where a person’s financial difficulties, such as debt problems, could potentially lead to the individual losing their home.
Amendment 82ZC would bring into scope all debt matters not covered in Schedule 1. In our consultation on legal aid reform, we proposed that funding should be prioritised on cases where the individual’s home is at immediate risk. We are therefore retaining legal aid in relation to court orders for possession or sale of the home and in relation to eviction. We generally consider that other debt matters are a lower priority and therefore do not justify public funding for legal advice and representation.
We recognise that early advice can be helpful in a range of contexts. However, what people often need is general advice, for example on welfare benefits, debt or housing, rather than legal advice. There are many alternative sources of help with debt issues, including Credit Action, the National Debtline, the Consumer Credit Counselling Service and local authorities, which also direct people to local sources of advice and assistance on debt matters. In addition, the Money Advice Trust has recently launched My Money Steps, an online tool for providing advice for people with debt problems. The Consumer Credit Counselling Service also offers a free online debt remedy service.
We also recognise the argument that withdrawal of legal aid for any issue could lead, by a chain of events, to serious consequences. We considered this point carefully when formulating our final proposals. However, our view is that the limited public funds for legal advice and representation should be focused on those cases where the client faces serious direct consequences. Therefore, we do not propose to devote these limited public funds to less important cases on the basis that they could indirectly lead to more serious consequences for that person.
It is also important to recognise that the Bill does not require legal proceedings to have been issued before legal aid can be made available. Legal aid will be available where action for repossession or eviction is contemplated—for example, where a person receives a letter threatening repossession action in the absence of payment. Therefore, legal aid will be available to a person threatened with repossession action for mortgage or rent arrears, for example to negotiate with the mortgage lenders. It should also be noted that we will retain funding for the housing possession court duty scheme. It offers free legal advice and representation to anyone in danger of eviction or having property repossessed, on the day of the hearing, regardless of their means. Research shows that 77 per cent of clients who receive this last-minute advice avoid the immediate loss of their home. Under the circumstances, I hope the noble Lord will consider withdrawing his amendment.
Amendment 82D appears to be aimed at bringing into scope debt relief remedies under Part 5 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 and, in particular, as the noble Lord said, debt relief orders. As I have already said, we consider certain debt matters to be a high priority for funding. That is why we are retaining legal aid for debt cases where the individual’s home is at immediate risk of repossession because of rent or mortgage arrears or involuntary bankruptcy. We recognise that debt problems can be difficult for the individuals concerned. Nevertheless, we strongly believe that what is often required is practical advice to resolve issues, rather than advice of a legal nature.
It is important to note that debt relief orders are relatively informal procedures. Advisers act as approved intermediaries and assist debtors in applying to the Insolvency Service for a debt relief order. I reiterate that individuals who have debt issues are able to seek advice from alternative routes. For example, the Insolvency Service website provides guidance and leaflets, and information is available through the insolvency inquiry line. Importantly, it should be noted that debt relief orders are used by people who owe limited amounts of money and have no assets. Therefore, they do not involve a person’s home being at immediate risk. They are clearly not analogous to cases in which a home owner is at immediate risk of losing their home as a result of involuntary bankruptcy. I hope that noble Lords will be reassured by what I have said and will not press these amendments.
Lord Howarth of Newport
Can the Minister assure the Committee with complete confidence that every single one of the organisations that he has named in his remarks are confident that they will be in a position to provide debt advice—indeed, sufficient personalised debt advice—to the people who will need it? Has he taken into account that the number of people sinking into the toils of debt is increasing hand over fist as the economy deteriorates?
Lord McNally
No, of course I cannot give that assurance, but neither do I assume the absolute worst case in everything that we discuss, as the noble Lord seems to do in each of his interventions.
Lord Stevenson of Balmacara
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Best, for trying to come to my aid. I am sorry that he was not able to continue with that. I am sure that he would have been able to include debt into the case that he was making, skilled orator that he is. However, this is a dialogue and I would like to respond to a few of the points that the Minister made.
We have heard the rhetoric about tough choices a number of times in these debates and no doubt we will hear it again. I wonder whether we might get a second script. Perhaps we could work together on that and enjoy a variation on the theme. We on this side of the House accept that legal aid costs have to go down, and have said so. We understand what the Minister is saying but we think that we have other ways of doing that. However, the same question emerges whichever way you approach this: namely, in saving a cost on an annual basis are the Government providing value for money in the long run? We have severe doubts that that is happening.
As my noble friend Lord Howarth mentioned, debts are increasing although perhaps not quite in the way that he indicated. CCCS, the charity which I chair, receives approximately 500,000 inquiries a year. Our average client owes more than £25,000 to more than eight different lenders. These people have a debt problem. The debts are not necessarily related to housing, to which a different contractual basis often applies, but arise because people overstretch themselves. As I tried to say in my opening address, they also arise because other things happen to these people; for example, they lose their jobs, suffer bereavement or become ill. This is not an easy area to talk about. It is not helpful to be overly simplistic and talk about owner-occupiers whose mortgages are at risk when many of these people will be in rented accommodation. However, the problems arising from losing their homes will be just as bad. I do not see any solution coming forward for those people.
The main point that I was trying to get across in my address concerned the DRO effect. I am afraid that the Minister did not answer the question that I posed: namely, what fee will be necessary to enable this service to be continued? It is presently £90. It seems to me that it will go up to nearer the fee that is charged for a full bankruptcy of £900. What will happen to debt advisers? Will funds be available to keep that generic debt advice going, particularly in the citizens advice area? As we explained, the only reason that the DRO system has continued is that the debt advisers are largely paid for by legal aid funds. If that goes, are we saying that those people who are in severe difficulty with their debts will have to rely on a website, which they probably cannot access because they do not have the necessary equipment, or guidance in leaflets? I do not think that that is a satisfactory solution to what is clearly a very serious problem.
These are very difficult issues that are part of a broader context of social welfare law. We shall probably have to come back to them but in the interim I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Shipley
“( ) a demolition order under section 82A of the Housing Act 1985 or section 6A of the Housing Act 1988.”
Lord Shipley
I rise to move Amendment 72A and to speak to Amendments 72B to 72D, 74C, 77A to 77H, 77K, 78A and 78B. That makes a total of 16 amendments, but they are interrelated so I hope that at this late hour it will not take too long to speak to them.
As it stands, the Bill would limit housing and debt legal aid to homelessness, loss of home and very serious cases of disrepair. However, there are major problems with the definitions that would enable an individual to qualify for legal advice and support. This set of amendments forms a set of proposals that would address this difficulty.
The Bill currently applies a very tight legalistic test in making legal aid available in cases involving court orders for sale or possession or for eviction proceedings. The nature of the test would make it very difficult to solve a problem at an early stage, which would be practical, fair and effective both for the individual and the legal system.
These amendments would make it easier for an individual in financial difficulties that could lead to the loss of their home to get help at the pre-litigation stage in a case, for example, involving arrears. The cost of allowing the advice process to start earlier could be as low as around £3 million, but could solve problems earlier and save money later when litigation occurs.
Lord Best
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 72A and support the case made by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for legal aid in housing cases to go beyond those where someone faces imminent loss of their home. I have made the case that the private rented sector has no regulator and no ombudsman. Therefore, private rented tenants are in a different position from consumers of other necessities such as electricity, gas, water, telephone or even financial services. If tenants are in dispute with their landlords, the only way of obtaining redress may well be to go to court.
That being so, legal advice can be of enormous help, not least in explaining to some tenants that they do not have a case and that it would be a waste of the time of the tenant and the courts to go down the route of litigation. Thanks to the current legal aid system, a publicly funded solicitor can advise tenants at an early stage that they should not pursue a hopeless case. If legal advice is not available, more tenants will try to proceed through the courts with ill advised cases as litigants in person, causing the courts and landlords—both private and public—to incur irrecoverable legal costs for wasted time litigating nonsense. My barrister colleague, Peter Marcus, who specialises in housing, tells me that he handles cases where, even if the landlord makes a successful application to have the tenant’s case struck out, the landlord none the less incurs significant irrecoverable legal fees.
Of course, the case for legal aid for housing matters goes much deeper than that. Justifiable cases against landlords, regrettably, are only too common in this sector. There are some 1.2 million private landlords and some are ignorant of their responsibilities, while a minority are deliberately exploitative. However, while legal aid is currently available to even the poorest tenant, the threat of litigation has teeth. Landlords know that, despite the absence of regulation or dispute resolution by an ombudsman, tenants advised by law centres or citizens advice bureaux can pursue them through the courts, with the landlord facing considerable costs when they lose the case. Without Amendment 72A, however, the disreputable landlord would see that threats from landlords of legal action would be empty, as tenants would not be able to take the matter forward unless the case concerned the likelihood of the imminent loss of their home.
Informing bad landlords that, however awful their behaviour, they will not be taken to court is like telling Somali pirates that they will never be held to account if they board ships and demand fantastic ransoms. It seems bound to lead to an escalation of criminality. Removing recourse to legal aid removes the capacity of tenants credibly to threaten litigation, leaving them with no way out of the misery of living in a property where the heating system does not work, where there is no management of anti-social neighbours, where disrepair is a major issue and where landlords simply refuse to answer letters or phone calls. As we all know, acute shortages mean that tenants, unlike consumers in other areas, do not have the luxury of being able to shop around and find a better property elsewhere.
The other way in which housing differs from other services lies in the legal complexities that surround it. Quite apart from the extensive body of landlord/tenant legislation, the ever changing entitlements to benefits—for example, to local housing allowances—are fiendishly complicated. Social landlords very often provide expert welfare benefits advice but private landlords, of course, do not. The ordinary consumer—the tenant—cannot be expected to have full knowledge of the legal niceties to deploy in a tribunal hearing; hence the need for professional advice, for which legal aid provides the funding mechanism. Take this away and not only will landlords be able to break the law with impunity but tenants who are ignorant of their entitlements or who are victims of incompetence at the hands of bureaucrats will never see justice.
The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, has made the case for legal aid housing advice preventing problems escalating to homelessness, and legal aid help for housing cases has to go much wider than stepping in at the last minute when possession of the home is imminent. Of course, many cases are not about eviction. Moreover, some of the cases where eviction has occurred may be about ancillary aspects of the actions of the landlord—it is not uncommon for tenants who are unlawfully evicted to have all their possessions thrown out of the property. If the landlord has previously exercised violence or harassment, the tenant may have no wish to get back their former home but merely to get back their belongings or obtain compensation for belongings destroyed. It would be perverse if a tenant could not get legal aid in such cases unless they declared that they wanted to go back into a property to which it would be unreasonable, if not unsafe, to return.
Regrettably, although we now depend on the private rented sector to house many poorer households, it is fraught with conflict that often requires a legal input to get sorted. With benefits advice being taken out of scope and the likely closure of many citizens advice bureaux as a result, housing is badly affected by the Bill. This surely is one area of our national life where legal aid is essential. Its withdrawal will not only cause misery but will cost central and local government money in picking up the pieces. I support the amendment.
Lord Howarth of Newport
My Lords, the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Best, was well worth waiting for. This is a very important and valuable group of amendments and I endorse the arguments so powerfully stated by the noble Lords who have spoken. Under the Government’s proposals in the Bill, legal aid will no longer be available for damages claims in relation to tenancy disputes; for example, disrepair. CLG tells us that more than 40 per cent of private rented dwellings do not meet the decent homes standard. Tenants will still be able to get legal aid to seek injunctions to get the work done, although only where there is serious risk of harm to the health or safety of the household. So there is a very high threshold for one to get legal aid for an injunction of that kind.
Under the current arrangements, as the noble Lord, Lord Best, explained, bad landlords know that the longer that they delay in carrying out the repairs, the greater the damages that they will have to pay. Therefore, the current arrangement, whereby legal aid is available for damages suits for disrepair, constitutes an incentive on landlords to carry out the repairs relatively promptly. Without the availability of legal aid for such damages claims, the pressure on landlords not to let their properties fall into disrepair will be removed.
Illegal eviction, actual or threatened, is a horrible reality for all too many people. Under the Government's proposals, legal aid will be available only to secure an injunction for the tenant to be reinstated to the property from which he has been illegally evicted. Again, as the noble Lord said, it is most likely that tenants will not want to go back to a tenancy with that same landlord. They will want to secure recovery of their possessions but they will not want to go back to that landlord. Under the Government’s proposals, the worst landlords will be able to get away with the worst behaviour and their victims will not be protected and will not be able to obtain compensation. The availability, through legal aid, of damages claims against bad landlords is a deterrent against bad behaviour; and the aggravated and exemplary damages that are, from time to time, awarded because the court takes a particularly severe view of the behaviour of a landlord are a most important deterrent. We will not be able to see that working in the future.
These problems are all too extensive. Environmental health officers testify to the fact that there are too many bad landlords and that many of them behave with the peculiar ruthlessness with which unfortunately people tend to act in housing matters; 90 per cent of environmental health officers say that they have personal experience of landlords harassing or illegally evicting tenants. The proportions of people availing themselves of private rented accommodation are rising at the moment. The Localism Act encourages local authorities now to place homeless households in the private rented sector. The benefits cap and the cuts to local housing allowance will drive families lower down the scale of the private rented sector towards the bottom end. It seems bizarre that legal aid will not be available to people facing housing problems until they are actually on the precipice of losing their homes. It is obvious that early intervention to deal with the underlying causes is a sensible policy to prevent the underlying problems deteriorating. It is both kinder and more economic.
Removing welfare benefit and debt cases from the scope of legal aid will mean, as my noble friend Lord Stevenson pointed out, that we will see a compounding effect of people getting deeper and deeper into trouble until they face homelessness. Under the Government's proposals, only then will they be able to get legal aid to help extricate them from the crisis that they have been allowed to get into.
This policy will increase insecurity and distress among tenants. It will add to the pressure on tribunals and courts, as the noble Lords, Lord Shipley and Lord Best, told us. It will increase costs to the taxpayer because of the consequences of the distress and of the problems that will be without remedy.
The Minister prayed in aid time and again in debates on different parts of this foolish and iniquitous Bill the requirement of the Treasury that the Ministry of Justice should make its contribution to reducing the deficit. The Treasury will certainly not be swayed by the pathos of vulnerable people finding themselves in greater difficulty than they need be in, but it should be swayed by the prospect of increased costs being shunted around Whitehall so that we end up with no reduction of the deficit but possibly an increase in it. I very much hope that the Treasury will review the policy that is proposed in the Bill before we get to Report. I hope that it will look at the arguments and figures put forward by Dr Cookson of King’s College. The central case on which the Minister relies—that all this, miserable though it may be, is inescapably necessary in order to reduce the deficit—is profoundly flawed. I hope that on Report we will see major government amendments to the Bill.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
My Lords, after three excellent speeches I will make only one point, following directly from the last point made by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth. What I may perhaps call the Cookson report—the King’s College report—quantifies certain knock-on costs. What it does not do is look at indirect knock-on costs. For example, in a case such as the one my noble friend referred to when he moved the amendment of somebody not getting timely advice and as a result finding that he and his family were on the street with the local authority having to pick up the problem and provide housing, along with the welfare fallout and so on, the indirect costs were not included in the figures of the King's College report. That makes the self-interest of the Government in listening to and agreeing the amendments in this group all the more acute.
My only other point was made by all three preceding speakers but is worth emphasising. The noble Lord, Lord Best, drew an analogy with Somali pirates. He talked of a small minority of exploitative landlords. That is absolutely fair; it is only a small minority of private landlords. However, they are concentrated among poor tenancies. If we throw our minds back to Rachman, we will remember that his tenants were among the poorest in London. That was no accident. Landlords who are of that evil mind know that poor tenants are least able to protect and stand up for themselves, and most easily harassed. Again, it is an issue of self-interest on the part of the Treasury to recognise that. If it does, it will see the sense of the amendments in this group without getting into morality and justice.
The Earl of Listowel
My Lords, I confess to feeling very troubled by what I have heard in the Chamber during this debate. I will say a few words about my concerns in particular about vulnerable families in private accommodation. A few years ago I accompanied a health visitor in the borough of Redbridge in north-east London just north of West Ham. We visited a number of families living in very poor conditions in private property. In one such home the basement was flooded and the landlord had taken no action to remedy this. Another was overcrowded. A mother and her two young children shared one room with water almost running down the walls. The third, and most shocking, was a home in which the shower and the lavatory were somehow combined in one system. It may be a small proportion of landlords, but there seemed to be a lot of them in Redbridge, back then, at least. I declare my interest as a landlord. I hope that the Minister can offer some real reassurance in his reply that the most vulnerable individuals and families in society are not going to suffer significantly because of what the Government propose.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I come to this debate informed not only, as ever, by the noble Lord, Lord Best, whose expertise in matters of housing is second to none in your Lordships' House, but by my experience over many years representing an inner-city ward in Newcastle that has a mix of housing. It has owner-occupiers, a substantial number of council houses, houses owned by registered social landlords and a significant number of private rented properties, many of which are, I have to say, poorly managed and which present many problems to the tenants. It is certainly true that, as the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, has said, some landlords are exploitative. Others are simply incapable for one reason or another of managing their properties adequately. They do not have the resources or the skill, or they may not live locally. Whatever the reason, it is the tenants who suffer. In these circumstances, there has to be some redress.
I will be speaking to Amendment 81, which seeks to cut to the chase in terms of the overall issue. The amendment so ably moved by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, deals with a series of issues, but Amendment 81 simply seeks to restore legal aid across the piece in housing matters, which strikes my noble friends and me as probably the most efficacious way of dealing with the problem. That is not in any way to minimise the strength of the arguments put by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley. He and I have been opening and closing debates across the council chamber for about 35 years, and it is a pleasure to continue that long-standing tradition.
Housing is now becoming one of the critical areas of public policy. For those engaged in not only the policy but the daily life that is influenced by housing, it is obvious that matters are getting increasingly difficult. We have spiralling rents and a shortage of available accommodation exacerbated, as other noble Lords have said, by pending changes to housing benefits that are likely to lead to still greater pressure on the private rented sector. At the same time, councils are having increasing difficulty in maintaining their stock as capital programmes are reduced and repairs and investment in existing council properties become more difficult to achieve. It must be said that not all councils are wonderful managers of property. Council tenants also have their problems and need redress as, occasionally, do the tenants of registered social landlords. What will occur as a result of the changes that the Bill proposes is that 40 per cent of housing cases—52,000 cases—will lose legal help, often from organisations such as Shelter rather than from solicitors but sometimes from solicitors, and that will save the Exchequer some £10 million. There will be 1,200 cases where legal representation will no longer be available. That will save the Exchequer £3 million. These are not inordinately large sums one might think, and other noble Lords have pointed out that the potential on-cost to other services could be considerably greater. Under the provisions of the Bill, there will be exceptional case funding, up to 25 per cent for some proceedings. I do not know whether the Minister is able to indicate the likely take-up. Up to 25 per cent can, of course, mean from virtually nothing up to 25 per cent, and it is not entirely clear what proceedings are envisaged in the term “some proceedings”. A little enlightenment on that would be helpful.
Lord McNally
My Lords, this large group includes a number of government amendments, which I presume are acceptable in their being mainly technical. I am extremely pleased to be sandwiched between my noble friend Lord Shipley and the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, as far as this debate is concerned. It is a great tribute to that great city of Newcastle that two of its most pre-eminent city leaders should now be giving such good service in this House and is a reflection of the quality of our civic leadership.
As is obvious, this group of amendments has provided a very useful opportunity to examine our proposals as they affect housing. I do not underestimate the importance of housing as an issue. Like the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, I am old enough to remember Rachmanism and when and how it entered our language. I can still remember the shock that the initial showing of “Cathy Come Home” had on British society in the late 1960s. There is no doubt that housing matters, as this debate has reflected.
As I said earlier to the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, a number of the points that were made either looked at worst-case scenarios or avoided exactly what the Government are providing for in the Bill. For example, when all these measures have gone through, we will still be spending some £35 million on housing-related legal aid.
During the passage of the Bill and in light of respondents’ views in consultation, we decided that legal aid should be available for cases of unlawful eviction. We amended the Bill in Commons Committee to ensure that legal aid continues to be available in cases of unlawful eviction for lawful occupiers without a tenancy agreement. Therefore, those who are unlawfully evicted can get legal aid, not only for the case of the eviction but for claims for damages and damage to their goods. We are also retaining legal aid for housing disrepair where it is alleged that the disrepair poses a serious risk to health or life. This, too, will give some protection to tenants. Legal aid will also remain where a tenant is threatened with eviction for early advice on the merits of their case. The merits test, which applies to all legal aid cases, will help prevent public funds being wasted on hopeless cases brought by tenants—a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Best. So we are listening. I shall not repeat the mantra, but we are concentrating limited funds on what we think are the most important cases.
At this hour, I shall go through the amendments to enable noble Lords to see where we are coming from on the issues raised by them. Amendment 81, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, acknowledged, appears to bring into scope housing law areas that are not covered in Schedule 1 and which we intend no longer to fund. We consider that many housing cases are primarily about money or property, and that these issues are not of importance when compared with such fundamental issues as homelessness or the immediate safety of individuals.
As I have already made clear, we intend to retain housing matters in scope only where the individual’s home is at immediate risk. Accordingly, legal aid will be available in relation to court orders for the possession or sale of an individual’s home and eviction from the home. We are also retaining legal aid for housing disrepair cases where there is a serious risk of harm to the health or safety of the individual or their family, and legal services are provided to ensure that the landlord remedies the disrepair. Legal aid will also be retained for those who are homeless or threatened with homelessness and are seeking homelessness assistance from the local authority.
Amendment 72A is aimed at making legal aid available where a tenant of a private registered provider of social housing, registered social landlord, housing action trust or local housing authority is facing a demotion of their secure or assured tenancy as a result of anti-social behaviour or use of the premises for unlawful purposes.
If an individual’s tenancy is demoted, it is replaced with a less secure form of tenancy. Demotion orders are designed to send clear warnings to tenants who are found to have behaved anti-socially or used their home for unlawful purposes. A court can grant a demotion order only where it is satisfied that the alleged behaviour has occurred and that it is reasonable to make the order.
Demotion orders are sought where there is anti-social behaviour but the landlords want to continue working with the tenants to improve their behaviour rather than evicting them outright. Accordingly, the individual is not at immediate risk of losing their home— as with, for example, an application for a possession order—and the Government therefore consider that the provision of legal aid is not justified in these circumstances.
We acknowledge that where a court demotes the tenancy of an individual, it is easier for the landlord subsequently to seek their eviction. However, the granting of the demotion order does not necessarily mean that possession proceedings will be brought, and the tenancy will revert to secure or assured status after 12 months, provided that the landlord has not issued a notice seeking possession during the demotion period—for example, because of further anti-social behaviour. However, where that is not the case and in consequence a possession order is sought by a landlord, legal aid will be available at that point.
Where a local housing authority or housing action trust decides to seek possession, the demoted tenant has the statutory right to seek an internal review of that decision. Legal help will be available for that under paragraph 28(1)(a) of Part 1 of Schedule 1. Legal aid will also be available in possession proceedings against a demoted tenant.
Where the landlord is a public authority and the tenant raises proportionality under Article 8 of the ECHR as a defence to the possession proceedings, case law makes clear that the court must consider proportionality. In addition, where a social landlord obtains a demotion order and subsequently seeks possession of the property, legal aid will be available for the tenant in relation to any judicial review of the landlord’s decision to bring possession proceedings.
Amendments 72B and 72C seek to make legally aided advice available in relation to welfare benefit entitlement where the individual is at immediate risk of losing their home and the benefits in question relate to housing costs—for example, housing benefit or the support for mortgage interest component of income support or pension credit.
Legal aid will continue to be available where the home is at immediate risk through the repossession or sale of the home, or eviction. However, legal aid will not be retained for advice on welfare benefits matters. While we recognise that many people rely on benefits, these cases are primarily about financial entitlement and we generally consider their importance to be lower than cases concerning, for example, the liberty or safety of a person.
For those who need assistance on a welfare benefits matters, factual advice is available from, for example, Jobcentre Plus, the benefits inquiry line and the tribunal itself. Accordingly, where possession action results from mortgage or rent arrears caused by a welfare benefits issue, we do not believe that legal aid should be provided in relation to the welfare benefits matter.
I have already explained the Government’s reasoning for this. We consider that the tribunal for resolving disputes is generally accessible without the need for legal assistance. Where the benefits dispute is ongoing at the point where possession action is taken, legal aid will be available in relation to the possession action, and it can be used to argue for an adjournment of possession proceedings—for example, if it appears that the client may be able to make the necessary payments once their benefits dispute has been resolved.
The Government understand that in cases where private landlords bring possession proceedings against their tenants, they will generally give the tenants reasonable notice that they are being asked to leave. Legal aid will be available to help tenants engage with landlords to try and resolve the actual or threatened possession issue wherever possible, including, if possible, coming to an agreement about delaying the possession matter until the benefit matter is resolved.
Amendment 72D relates to the loss-of-home matters at paragraph 28 of Schedule 1. It appears that the intention, by lifting certain exclusions in Part 2 of Schedule 1, is to make legal aid available for a wide range of potential claims in tort and for welfare benefit matters within the context of eviction and possession. The Government amended paragraph 28 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 at Commons Committee stage to lift certain exclusions in Part 2 of the schedule in order to give effect to the original policy intention that legal aid should continue to be available for counterclaims to possession proceedings. It was important to do so as such counterclaims have the potential to keep clients from becoming homeless. We also lifted those exclusions in relation to unlawful eviction, in order to ensure that our policy that legal aid should continue to be available for such matters was given effect.
The provisions that we introduced, now at paragraph 28(6)(a) and (b), lift the exclusions for trespass to person, to property and to land, and breach of a statutory duty in respect of counterclaims to possession proceedings and unlawful eviction proceedings. We believe that the provisions in paragraph 28 already sufficiently lift relevant exclusions in Part 2 of Schedule 1 as are necessary for the purpose of paragraph 28.
Amendment 72D would go much further and is, we believe, intended potentially to allow legal aid funding for any tort claim that may arise in the context of a loss of home. Indeed, it might even in some circumstances make legal aid funding available to a landlord to bring a damages claim against a tenant within the context of eviction.
In relation to tort claims more broadly, they are being more generally excluded from the scope of legal aid. The Government take the view that these cases are essentially claims for money or damages, which are a lower priority for funding than cases that involve more fundamental issues. Conditional fee agreements may provide a viable alternative means of funding such claims.
We are retaining legal aid for the most serious damages claims against public authorities where the issue is an abuse of position or power or a significant breach of human rights, or for any case concerning alleged abuse of a child or vulnerable adult, or alleged sexual offence. We are also retaining funding for claims under the Equality Act 2010.
On welfare benefits, with the exceptions of judicial reviews and claims related to the contravention of the Equality Act 2010, we have decided to remove welfare benefits matters from scope, for the reasons that I gave the House earlier.
Amendment 74C is aimed at ensuring that the provisions of sub-paragraph 28(10) of Schedule 1, which relate to trespassers facing eviction, exclude from legal aid only those who are in occupation as a trespasser and who began their occupation as such. Legal aid will generally be available for possession and eviction matters under paragraph 28 of Part 1 of Schedule 1. However, the Government do not believe that it is justifiable to use taxpayers’ money to provide legal aid funding in circumstances where an individual has unarguably both entered and remained on a property or site as a trespasser and is facing eviction. Such cases are intended to be excluded by paragraph 28(10) of Part 1 of Schedule 1.
The Government agree with the objectives behind this amendment and the concern motivated by it, namely that paragraph 28(10) as drafted could be read as having a different effect from that intended. These provisions could possibly be read as preventing an individual from obtaining legal aid for eviction if they unarguably entered as a trespasser but then regularised their arrangement by, for example, entering into a tenancy. The provision could also be interpreted as excluding cases from legal aid where an individual had initial consent to be present—for example, as a tenant—but no longer has such consent, for example, because of a dispute with their landlord.
As government Amendments 74A, 74B and 74D concern the same point, I will deal with them together. These amendments do not represent a change in policy; rather, they are aimed at giving better effect to our stated policy. They therefore address the same objective as Amendment 74C. The Government’s amendments are more appropriate to meet the concerns that have been expressed because they leave no room for doubt that the provision achieves the effect that I have described and that the Government have always intended. These government amendments put beyond doubt that the exclusion in paragraph 28 of Schedule 1 in relation to trespassers will apply only when the person is both unarguably occupying a property as a trespasser and began their occupation as such. I hope that noble Lords will be reassured by that clarification.
The next group of amendments relates to the provisions in paragraph 30 of Part 1 of Schedule 1, concerning housing disrepair cases. Amendments 77A, 77C and 77E relate to legal aid for damages claims by tenants relating to disrepair in rented homes—in particular, ensuring that when legal aid has been granted for a housing disrepair case, if the landlord makes arrangements for the repairs to be carried out, or carries them out, legal aid can continue for the damages aspect of the claim until the conclusion of the case. We have prioritised funding on cases which concern such fundamental issues as homelessness and the safety of the individual or their family. We are therefore retaining legal aid when serious disrepairs threaten the health of the client or their family and the client wishes to bring an action against their landlord to remove or reduce that risk. We are, however, generally excluding damages claims from the scope of legal aid because we take the view that these cases are essentially claims for money, which are a lower priority for funding than cases which involve more fundamental issues. We also consider that conditional fee agreements offer an alternative means of funding such claims.
It may be that the intention of this and related amendments is generally to extend Schedule 1 to cover disrepair damages claims. In this context, we note that Amendment 77G disapplies a range of the exclusions set out in Part 2 of Schedule 1 which concern causes of action which can be used to obtain damages. As I have already said, we do not consider that damages claims for housing disrepair are a sufficient priority for funding and that conditional fee agreements present a viable alternative means to fund such claims. We recognise that, when a housing disrepair claim is funded under paragraph 30 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 to remove or reduce the serious risk of harm arising from disrepair, and the claim also includes a damages element, legal aid could be extended to cover the excluded damages aspect of the claim. This could happen under the rules for connected matters made under paragraph 40 of Part 1 of Schedule 1.
Amendment 77F appears to be intended, in such cases, to allow funding for the damages aspect of a claim for disrepair to continue to be funded even where the disrepair itself has been addressed by the landlord. We do not consider this to be appropriate or necessary. I have already explained that we do not consider damages claims to be a high priority. In addition, where a landlord has carried out repairs, or has been ordered to do so, this should remove any doubt as to liability for the disrepair. If there continues to be a meaningful damages claim and a reasonable prospect of recovering damages, the client should be able to continue the damages aspect of the claim under a conditional fee agreement. This amendment may also, in part, be motivated by a concern that failure to fund the damages aspect of the case will prevent the legal aid fund from recovering any unrecouped costs. If so, this amendment is unnecessary. Where the damages aspect of a case continued under a conditional fee agreement, if the client were successful in obtaining damages, the statutory charge would ensure that any unrecouped funds expended at the earlier stages of the case by the legal aid fund would be recouped.
In addition, noble Lords should be aware that legal aid will not in general be withdrawn where it is in the interests of the legal aid fund for it to continue. In an unusual case where the damages aspect of a funded case could not be continued under a conditional fee agreement, legal aid for a housing disrepair case could continue to its conclusion to protect public funds by obtaining a costs order, even when repairs have been carried out.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
My Lords, listening to this debate on housing reminds me of being told when I was very young that a stitch in time saved nine, that for want of a nail a shoe was lost or what would happen if you went out courting on Ilkley Moor without your hat on—I could not think of anything relating to the Lambton Worm, but I am sure there was something along those lines as well—the point being that the Government are prepared to fund at the most expensive end, when you get to court or near to it. I think of all those days as a solicitor when you settle things by picking up the phone, writing a letter or meeting face to face. That is the hidden part of the iceberg that I do not think the Ministry of Justice appreciates at all. It is sad that there is a perverse incentive for lawyers to escalate a case to the point at which they are about to go to court, as opposed to funding at a lower level where things can be sorted out as they always have been. That is a brief comment; I have sat here long enough, and I think I am entitled to make it.
Lord Shipley
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for his contributions to identifying what is at the heart of this. I am grateful to the Minister for the very full answers that he has given to this set of amendments, but of course broadly speaking what he said is what the Bill says—it was a restatement of the current position.
I ask the Minister to look again at two things. One is the King’s College/Law Society evidence base for what the knock-on costs might actually be. The contribution of my noble friend Lord Phillips helped us to understand that some of the indirect costs have not been counted in the King’s College calculations. That being so, there might well be an evidence base that tells us that it will be more expensive. As opposed to saving a little money, it might end up costing the Government more.
Secondly, I wonder whether we might look at the basis of the cost-shunting around Whitehall, which I take very seriously. When cuts are required, there is a tendency in Whitehall departments to do things that deliver the cuts in that department but cause someone else additional cost. That other department tends not to pick up that cost until it has happened and there is suddenly no alternative.
We have had a full and frank debate. Many of us in the Committee think that there is a problem that we need to address in greater detail. It may well prove to be in the interests of the Government to save money by adopting some of the amendments that have been proposed this evening. However, for the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.