Kevan Jones
Main Page: Kevan Jones (Labour - North Durham)Local Government Finance Bill
Kevan Jones Excerpts(12 years, 3 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Helen Jones
We have tabled these amendments because we are concerned about the way the Bill is being rushed through the House and, should it be enacted, the short time allowed for its implementation. Understandably, the Bill deals with difficult questions. It is not easy when dealing with local government finance to resolve exactly where the line should be drawn between central and local government, how far services should be uniform and how far we are prepared to tolerate variations in them. I accept that the Government carried out a consultation before bringing in the Bill, but the problem is that the Bill seems to reflect little of that consultation.
In addition, the Bill is being taken through the House at a break-neck pace. It was published on 19 December, just before the Christmas recess, and had its Second Reading on 10 January, which was the first day the House returned and only two sitting days later. Instead of sending the Bill upstairs to Committee, where we could have taken evidence, which we cannot do on the Floor of the House—that is the important thing about Public Bill Committees—the Government insisted that the Bill should be considered in Committee of the whole House in three days, and I think that it was originally meant to be two days.
Why are the Government so worried about taking evidence upstairs in Committee? They might be a little worried about what they could hear, because the truth is that local councils, having started to look at the Bill in detail, are particularly concerned about the speed of implementation for its provisions and are struck by the number of powers being given to the Secretary of State.
Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that another possible motive for considering the Bill on the Floor of the House is the coalition Government’s botched programming of business for this Session and the fact that, were it not being considered here, there would be little to be heard in the Chamber?
Helen Jones
My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point, which I will come to in a moment.
If the Bill comes into force, one extremely complex system will be removed and replaced with another extremely complex system, without time for local authorities to prepare for it.
Mr Syms
I, too, have been an Opposition politician. Opposition politicians often argue that Bills taken on the Floor of the House really ought to be taken in a Public Bill Committee; and when there is a Public Bill Committee, they argue as eloquently as possible that the Bill ought to be taken on the Floor of the House. When Opposition politicians are not sure what to do about a Bill, one thing they say is that it has not been considered for long enough. They then try, as amendment 20 does, to delay the commencement date, because that is a good substitute for hearing their views on such reforms. If they can press an amendment, such as amendment 20, to a Division after a debate, that is very good, because in that way they cannot discuss some of the important issues in, say, schedules 1, 2 and 3. Perhaps we will end today not quite knowing where the Opposition are on some of those issues.
The reality is that we probably have the most centralised system of local government in the western world. The Bill is a step in the right direction for devolving power. Perhaps it does not go far enough, but we will doubtless see as the Committee progresses over its three days what assurances we get from the Minister on the pace at which the Government are going.
I am confident that the Government’s instincts are right. My experience of local government officials is that they must always second-guess central Government. Some are pretty good at it. Rather than prevaricating, if we are to change the system, the sooner we do so, the better. I therefore support my hon. Friend the Minister.
Mr Kevan Jones
The reason the Bill is being taken on the Floor of the House is that there is no business—the business is in a logjam up in the other place.
It is important that the Bill gets detailed scrutiny. As my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) said, in a Public Bill Committee, we would have been allowed not only to scrutinise the Bill, but to take evidence from councils, professionals and others with such expertise. We will not have that opportunity. As one who sat on one of the very first pre-legislative scrutiny Committees back in 2001—it was on the Civil Contingencies Act 2004—I was converted and became a great fan of such pre-legislative scrutiny. That Committee was given the chance to look at the proposals in detail, and as my hon. Friend said earlier, the Bill will bring about a radical change in local government finance in this country.
We had just over three hours last week on Second Reading.
Mr Jones
As my right hon. Friend says, we had two hours on Second Reading for Back Benchers. What we will see with this Bill is what we have seen with a number of Bills. They fly through the House at the speed of light only to land in the other place to be picked apart slowly but surely because of their terrible drafting and the draconian implications they will have for many of our constituents. I can foresee exactly what will happen with this Bill. When we look at the next few weeks of business programmed for the House, we can see that we could have unlimited time to debate the Bill, but time will be limited, and the Government will push the Bill through with undue haste because they are determined to do so.
As has already been said, the time scale set out in the Bill leaves councils with a huge dilemma, which is why I support amendments 20 and 21 to 25. I said this on Second Reading, but I will say it again: the Bill is highly political in the sense that the Government are shifting blame from themselves to local councils under the guise of localism. A good example of that in the Bill is the administration of council tax benefit. The measure contains a poison pill. Local councils must defend their decisions on implementing a 10% cut locally. Clearly, the Minister and the Secretary of State will turn round and say, “It’s not us, Guv; it’s local councils.” That has been the Government’s approach to responsibility throughout. It is nothing to do with localism; it is a highly political and cynical attempt to deflect the blame from where it should lie—it should lie with the Government, not local councils.
John Healey
My hon. Friend makes an important point that counters the assertion of the hon. Member for Poole (Mr Syms). He said that Opposition Members argue that the Government are going too far too fast with the Bill because we do not know what to say about it. Does my hon. Friend agree, to the contrary, that the local authorities that must implement the Bill are worried about the rapid time scale? Authorities in Yorkshire and the Humber have told us that they are concerned about
“the rapid timetable for these reforms, given the huge levels of complexity involved and the radical implications they will have on councils’ ability to fund services to local communities”.
That is why my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) was so right to table the amendments.
Mr Jones
I agree totally with my right hon. Friend. The Bill also has the backdrop of councils having to introduce draconian cuts—County Durham must take £125 million out of its budget over the next four years.
That is alongside the uncertainty in the Bill. Neither hon. Members nor councils know about the regulations, and they will not know exactly how the rebate system will work. When they are budgeting for future years, it is important that councils know what they can do. The time scale in the Bill means that they are walking into the new arrangements blind. They do not know what they must deduct, because we do not have the regulations before us.
George Hollingbery
Having spent 11 years as a local councillor, I can reflect on the fact that in almost no year that I can remember did we have any certainty about our finances. It was all entirely settled by national Government through an incredibly complex system that nobody understood. I am stretched to understand why the hon. Gentleman thinks the new system will be any more confusing.
Mr Jones
I do not know when the hon. Gentleman left local government, but we introduced three-year budgeting, which helped local councils. I agree that under the old system, when I was a councillor in the days when the Tories were last in government, the biggest problem for councils was having to guess what their annual budget would be. I am not sure whether three-year budgets were introduced by my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford), who is in his place, but they gave councils some certainty. The Bill will add more uncertainty. Councils will be asked to second-guess what the system will be, and we will have no opportunity to scrutinise it before it becomes law.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
It is precisely that uncertainty that is unsettling a number of local authorities, including Tameside metropolitan borough council in my constituency. Had we had the opportunity to scrutinise properly the impact of the Government’s changes on various local authorities as part of the process of deliberating on the Bill, we would have been able to assess the winners and losers across the country. Despite the picture that Ministers paint that everybody is a winner and nobody is a loser, the reality is quite the contrary. Over the coming years, as the new mechanism operates, the gap between authorities that win and those that lose will widen. I believe that areas such as mine, and no doubt my hon. Friend’s, will be the losers.
Mr Jones
I agree, and that uncertainty will be a problem not just because councils will not know what the rebate is going to be. It is quite clear that Durham is not going to gain from the new system, and it was interesting to hear the Secretary of State and the Minister say last week that the area would be a net gainer. However, the Secretary of State failed to tell the House—he is very good at that—that he was referring to the last five years’ figures, for some of which time the economy of County Durham was growing. Now, under the coalition Government, it is—
Mr Jones
It is not at all. If the hon. Gentleman comes to my constituency and says that to the 21% of young people who are unemployed, I am sure they will find it very amusing. It is quite clear that given the economies of regions such as the north-east, if local authorities do not know what their compensation will be, they will not be able to make plans.
It is interesting that Government Members seem quite quiet this afternoon, including the Liberal Democrats, who claim to be the party of local government.
Mr Jones
No, and that is possibly because they will have to explain to northern councils why they are supporting measures that will have a terrible effect on their budgets. They sidestep that issue and say that it is all because the matter is covered by the coalition agreement, and then we have the usual deathly silence from them. We need to remind all our constituents on every possible occasion that such draconian cuts could not be got through the House without the support of the Liberal Democrats.
Annette Brooke (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)
Would the hon. Gentleman like to tell the House whether he agrees with the principle of local authorities retaining more of their business rates? That is what we are meant to be discussing, and I would very much like to hear his view.
Mr Jones
I think the hon. Lady represents Dorset, and there is a big difference between Dorset and parts of County Durham. Even though there are some very beautiful parts of County Durham, I am sure that Dorset’s economic activity shows it to be far more affluent than parts of County Durham. I support local decisions being taken at a local level, but I do not support a system in which her constituents in wealthier areas will gain at the expense of constituencies such as mine that need support for economic development.
What we heard last week on Second Reading from Government Members was absolutely disgraceful. Conservative Member after Conservative Member referred to local councillors not being interested in economic development. I have to say that I have never yet met one who does not want to increase the economic vibrancy of their area. They put a lot of effort into doing that, and such comments show again the prejudice of Government Members.
The changes to council tax benefit will be a nightmare for councils not just because of the localisation of the system but because of its top-slicing—
Mr Jones
I am sorry, but I think you are chairing the Committee, Mr Amess, not a Liberal Democrat Member who usually has very little to say, and frankly when he does it is not very interesting.
I am talking about the time scale of what is being introduced. We will have to work out the methodology of how the funds are to be distributed. We hear, for example, that pensioners are not going to be included, which will have an effect on some poorer councils, such as the eastern part of County Durham, with large ageing populations. The time scale for the system’s introduction is very limited, and there is uncertainty about exactly how it will happen. Instead, the Bill should have included the schedules, procedures, mechanisms for redistribution and so on.
Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)
The hon. Gentleman seems to be arguing that because there is uncertainty, the Bill should be delayed. May I remind him of the words of the chairman of the Local Government Association, which I am sure he has read? He stated:
“The current system of funding local government is incredibly complex and does not meet the needs of all the people we serve.”
He also said:
“Now more than ever, we need to put in place a funding system that will support local public services and generate economic growth.”
Is that not an argument for progressing more quickly rather than for delaying?
Mr Jones
The Conservative party needs to learn lessons, because every time it has dabbled in local government finance it has got its fingers burned. The hon. Gentleman talks about the current system being complicated, but the proposals in the Bill cannot exactly be said to be very simple, and it is clear that it will centralise power into the hands of the Secretary of State and take it away from local councils.
Mr Raynsford
We have heard a rather partial and not very accurate account of the LGA’s view. Perhaps the hon. Member for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher) has not read its briefing. I will not go into the details, because interventions must be brief, but it states that
“the LGA supports amendment 60 which would postpone the introduction of the scheme by 12 months.”
Graham Stringer
None out of ten to the hon. Member for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher).
Christopher Pincher
One fact that is absolutely undeniable is that Durham’s business rate growth has been greater than the national average, so the Bill will help the hon. Gentleman’s constituents, not hinder them.
Mr Jones
I am sorry, but when the hon. Gentleman gets his briefing notes from Conservative central office or wherever, he should perhaps examine how the figures are presented. The Secretary of State is very good at presenting figures. They are actually the figures for the past five years, when we had a growing employment base in County Durham.
Mr Jones
Indeed. Now, we see that the latest unemployment figure is nearly 7.8% for my constituency and nearly 12% for the north-east in general, and businesses are closing. Is the hon. Member for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher) saying that those businesses are somehow going to grow over the next few years as a result of this measure? In fact, councils will lack certainty about how much they will get. The local authority is one of the biggest employers in County Durham, but there has been a reduction in the numbers of people. I think the policy is that by cutting back in local government and public services, all these new jobs will rush forward from the private sector, but today’s figures show that 67,000 people have left the public service in the last quarter, while only 5,000 jobs have been created in the private sector.
As I said on Second Reading about my constituents in the north-east, the Bill will actually help the affluent south. Clearly, it is a damn sight easier to attract business to the likes of Westminster and other economic hotspots in the south-east of England than to parts of County Durham. That is no criticism of the work that local councils do to attract jobs—for instance, with the council’s full support, the area has succeeded in attracting Hitachi trains to Newton Aycliffe in County Durham. I know of the tremendous work that my hon. Friend the Member for Sedgefield (Phil Wilson) did on that campaign.
The Bill is being rushed through with undue haste. We are expecting councils and local people to walk blindly into the future. The parties in government sometimes try to portray this as a simplified system, but it is not; it will be a centralised and bureaucratic system. We cannot allow a situation to develop in which local people or local government do not know how much money they will get or how the system will work in practice.
Andrew Gwynne
Is not one merit of pausing, delaying and taking stock of the changes that it would allow us to get the baseline starting point absolutely right for each local authority, which is crucial, and is it not the case that using the 2012-13 formula grant model, including the damping, to determine the baseline will, for local authorities such as mine in Tameside, lock in the funding losses arising from the damping exercise and the disproportionate reduction in funding from the 2011-12 and 2012-13 settlements?
Mr Jones
Yes. That would have come out had we had proper pre-legislative scrutiny in Committee. It is the same for County Durham. Under the funding settlement introduced last year by the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats, County Durham lost about £10 million. That will be in the system for ever more now because of the measures in the Bill. Surprisingly, Wokingham council, Surrey council and many others gained from the system. That injustice will be written into the Bill for ever.
Mr Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South) (LD)
I declare an interest as a member of Portsmouth city council and the executive member for economic development. The hon. Gentleman states that the Bill will greatly damage local authorities. Will he reflect on why, over 13 years, the previous Labour Government, who received similar complaints from local authorities, did little or nothing to assist them by putting local finance on a proper footing?
Mr Jones
That is not true. We did. We had a three-year settlement and an increase in the settlement. Through the regional development agency in the north-east, we were putting money into areas such as Country Durham so that they could work with local councils to attract new businesses. I know that the hon. Gentleman does not necessarily agree with everything that the coalition does, but unfortunately, in places such as the north-east, it is taking away the main driver, the RDAs, that local councils could work with to attract more businesses to the north-east.
Mr Hancock
My recollection of those years was that money was taken away from the city of Portsmouth, where there was high unemployment and great deprivation, and that the benefits went to places such as County Durham. We felt for a long time that the formula was very unfair and we campaigned to get it changed, but the Labour Government turned a deaf ear to the pleas from authorities such as Portsmouth which were trying to make a rational case for equalisation and a much fairer distribution.
Mr Jones
But Portsmouth council received a year-on-year increase in its grant. It is interesting to hear a Liberal Democrat argue that deprivation should not be important to how local government money is spent. I would not be surprised to hear that from the Secretary of State because, frankly, I do not think that he cares—for instance, his support for his own Conservative areas at the expense of areas such as the north-east is highly political.
Mr Jones
Exactly. Not for the first time, some of those chickens are coming home to roost. Hopefully, we will have fewer Liberal Democrat “Focus” leaflets claiming credit for everything that goes right and criticising everything else that the previous Government did. Some of those northern councils had Liberal Democrats, but thankfully, in places such as Newcastle and Sheffield, the electorate have seen through them.
In conclusion, the timetable for the Bill needs to be rethought. As suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), if we can take witnesses at this stage, we should consider doing so, because otherwise the same will happen as has happened with a lot of Bills this Session: the Bill will be rushed through here only to be held up in the other place, where the ladies and gentlemen will give it the proper scrutiny that it deserves.
Mr Ward
I want to make just a few comments. I also consider it regrettable that the Committee stage is being taken here and not in one of the Committee Rooms. The quality of debate might have been better in that environment.
I am sympathetic to the amendments on deferment. I want to discuss that point in particular. After many, many years of seeking the change for which most in the House have called, we have before us a radical and important shift in the relationship between local government and central Government, but we face a potentially enormous change of not just a financial nature but a constitutional nature. One of the concerns that I guess we all share is about the unknown consequences of the redistributional impact.
Yes, there are tariffs and top-ups, and we welcome the application of the retail prices index to the baselines for business rates and local authority funding—that is welcome—but actually local government finance is not too complex. Yes, the formula and weightings are complex. We all know about the complexities of what goes into the computer and the figures that come out, but its purpose at the moment is actually pretty simple: to redistribute funds to authorities on the basis of need. That is pretty simple. But we are moving from that system to a new system.
We all welcome, I think, the principle behind localisation. The trouble is that, with many of the things we are facing, the easier it is to accept something in principle, the more difficult it is to challenge the consequences. Because we are talking about such a strong principle, which many of us hold, we are willing to accept some of the consequences, or potential consequences, when we are not fully aware of what they will be. There may or may not be a change if we move from a system based on the allocation of funds by need to one based on allocation by growth in business rates. However one thing we do know is that if things go wrong, it must, by definition, be one that, with the total pot—
Heidi Alexander
My hon. Friend makes a very fair point, and if I am correct, those on our Front Bench have tabled amendments for debate later that deal with exactly that point.
We need to take longer to scrutinise the Bill and for the proposals within it to come into force, because I would contest that this Government do not know whether they are coming or going in relation to local government finance and the retention of business rates, or how this proposal will stimulate growth in local economies.
Mr Kevan Jones
What is clear from the Bill is that the Secretary of State will not only retain but increase his powers to interfere in local government finance. The question of how a future Secretary of State should use those powers will be of great concern to many councils.
Mr Raynsford
Let me first draw attention to my interests as declared in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, and specifically to my role as a columnist for the Municipal Journal—the MJ.
I hope and believe that when the Minister sums up, he will have to reflect on the fact that every Member who has spoken—with the sole exception of the hon. Member for Poole (Mr Syms), to whose contribution I shall return in a moment—has expressed real reservations about the timetable that is being adopted, in the context of both parliamentary consideration of the Bill and implementation of the measures contained in it. That is fairly remarkable, given that it was supposed to be a flagship Bill granting local government more freedom, and a measure that local government should welcome. Indeed, the hon. Member for Poole, whom I have known for many years and for whom I have a great deal of respect, made that the key point of his argument. He seemed to be saying, “This is a step in the right direction: let us get on with it, because it gives more discretion to local government.” The hon. Gentleman must wonder—as, indeed, I hope Ministers will wonder—why, if the Bill is of such benefit to local government, local government is so apprehensive about it. He must wonder why Members on his own side of the House, albeit on the Liberal Democrat Benches, have been so critical of the timetable. Let us think about that.
It is not just the organisation representing London councils, which happens to be Labour controlled at present, that has been highly critical of the timetable and has urged delay. I must remind the hon. Member for Tamworth (Christopher Pincher), who suggested that the Local Government Association was wholly in favour of rapid action, that in its evidence it specifically supported an amendment that would delay implementation of the benefit changes until 2014. Even the LGA, a Conservative-controlled body, has expressed strong reservations about the timetable, while local government experts from whom we would normally expect to hear in evidence sessions are amazingly critical.
A week ago there was a very good article in Public Finance by Sarah Philips, who was an adviser to the Lyons inquiry and knows the issues thoroughly and deeply. She made some telling comments, such as these:
“The government’s repeated use of the term ‘local’ in relation to the planned changes hasn’t been enough to persuade councils that these will be an improvement. Current local government funding is incomprehensible, but these proposals taken together are even more complex and opaque. They have been criticised by councils, commentators and the communities and local government select committee—on most of the criteria the government set for itself and others… ‘Rich’ councils were looking forward to keeping most of their business rates and being free of central control. ‘Poorer’ councils were hoping for some continuation of equalisation, to recognise the huge range of needs and council tax revenues and their limited scope to increase business rates.”
Many of my hon. Friends have made the same points during the debate. Sarah Philips continues:
“The proposed tariff and top-ups and central levy limit incentives for growth, yet do not give much hope that services in ‘poorer’ areas can continue undiminished—or that it will be possible to prevent a two-tier system.
The proposals acknowledge only implicitly the risks of localised funding. In Europe and Australia, many smaller authorities and those in poorer areas have struggled to provide quality services and many have gone bankrupt or merged. The plans threaten the technical and financial viability of small district councils. Losing Housing Benefit will remove an economy of scale with processing the council tax support—limiting the ability to maintain a corporate centre.”
Those are just some of the comments that have been made by a real expert on local government finance—an officer who is clearly extremely anxious about the implications of the Bill. I hope that Government Members who have suggested that we should get on with it will pause to think about the serious risks attached to such action.
The hon. Member for Meon Valley (George Hollingbery) said in an intervention that local authorities had had to cope with annual changes in settlements in the past. As was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones), our Government changed that and adopted a three-year cycle, but in any event there is a fundamental difference between an annual change in the settlement—which affects the actual amount of grant that an authority will receive for that year—and a complete change in the administrative system. The separation between council tax benefit and universal credit will require the establishment of a whole new administration and an entirely different system for the making and processing of applications, along with different computer programmes to determine eligibility and provide for the granting of discounts.
Mr Kevan Jones
Another element contributing to the uncertainty that will characterise the proposed new system is the possibility of fluctuations in business rates throughout the year. The Secretary of State implied that councils would somehow be compensated if a large employer disappeared—Alcan in Northumberland, for instance, is unfortunately being closed—but the Bill contains no details about that compensation.
Mr Kevan Jones
I agree with my right hon. Friend. There is also no detail as to how the pooling of risk will work, such as whether it will be a voluntary system or enforced by the Government. In my region of the north-east, Newcastle and Sunderland would probably pool together only if they were forced to do so by Government diktat.
Mr Raynsford
I am not going to go into the relations between different local authorities. My hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander) and I are constituency neighbours and I am sure our local authorities would want to co-operate in the most friendly way, although I am not sure whether that attitude would be replicated by all authorities in other parts of the country.
I was responding to the comments of the hon. Member for Meon Valley by observing that this change is much more complex than just an annual change in the settlement. Substantial administrative change is involved, too. Capita is a company that provides a lot of revenue services and undertakes benefit work for local authorities so it might be expected to see business opportunities in this change, but it is sounding the alarm about the risks involved in trying to programme this major change on an impossibly tight timetable.
A lot of detail is involved in the specification of the scheme, and the Government will impose the requirements that there are to be no losses for certain categories of participant, no inconsistencies in respect of the universal credit, and no disincentives to work. It is difficult to see how that can be achieved if there is to be a 10% cut in the overall council tax benefit. Pensioners are to be entirely protected and they represent more than a third of recipients, so it is hard to see how the other recipients, those of working age who are in employment or looking for work, will not be subject to cuts. How can a commercial company, such as a software firm, that is helping local authorities to prepare to administer these schemes possibly get arrangements properly in place under such circumstances? That is the real challenge to the Government.
As I said on Second Reading, the Government are risking a repeat of the fiasco that occurred when the housing benefit scheme was first introduced by a Conservative Government in 1982-83. That was rushed. The detailed specification and implementation arrangements were not available in time and there was chaos across the country. There were appalling examples of people being left without money for weeks and months, and people facing eviction from private homes because they were not getting the benefit they ought to have had. There was huge hardship, and there were also serious problems in authorities throughout the country.
I say in all sincerity to the Government that they are taking a very serious risk in pressing ahead with these changes to a very tight timetable without giving Members the opportunity to scrutinise and question the detailed arrangements, such as the specification of the scheme and the safety net. We are not being given the opportunity to test the provisions so as to find any weaknesses, yet local government will be expected to implement them to an impossibly tight timetable.
I say to the hon. Member for Poole that the Opposition are not using the timetable issue as an excuse. There is a genuine anxiety that is shared across local government. We must remember that the change will affect not only local authorities but their residents. Some 6 million people receive council tax benefit, which is one of the largest numbers of recipients of any category of benefit in the country. All these people are being put at risk by the Government’s unwise timetable.
I urge the Minister to give further thought to that point, and to heed the Select Committee’s sound advice to defer implementation for a year. I also know that Liberal Democrat Members have reservations, and I therefore urge them to do the right thing by joining us in opposing this rushed and unwise timetable.
Robert Neill
The hon. Lady fails to grasp the basic principle underlying the Bill. The problem at present is that local authorities have no incentive to encourage growth. Instead, they potentially have a burden. They have no ability to grow the tax base.
Robert Neill
I will give way again shortly.
Unfortunately, throughout this debate Opposition Members have articulated their old mindset. It is a mindset that does down local government, and I find that surprising given the experience some Opposition Members have of that. They do not seem to recognise that most local authorities want to advance their local economies even though they currently get no revenue benefit from doing so. We will make a key difference by giving them a tool to get such benefits.
Mr Kevan Jones
Is my right hon. Friend surprised that we are returning to having a Conservative Government who are quite clear that they will reward the areas that vote for them and write off whole swathes of the country, including the north-east?
John Healey
Like my hon. Friend, I am not surprised by that. I seriously question whether the scheme will work even on its own terms, but I support the principle of a system that provides some rewards and incentives to local authorities so that they better support growth in business, jobs and the economy. The cost of doing that in the Bill and under the new system is very great given that they take no account of need or resources, and do away with the decades-old principle of equalisation.
Helen Jones
My right hon. Friend, who has been a doughty champion of his constituency for many years, hits on exactly the point that we are trying to make: unless the distribution of the central and local share is based on a number of factors, inequality will be built into the system—indeed, it is built in already because of the starting point. We do not believe that this approach is good enough. The future of communities and of the services available, particularly to the poorest people in this country, cannot simply be left to chance. If the Government believe in fairness and really believe that they would take into account the factors we mention in any case in determining central and local shares, I cannot see why they would have a problem in accepting our amendment. After all, the Prime Minister and the Deputy Prime Minister told us during their now forgotten love-in back in May 2010, before the romance had gone and they started squabbling, that they
“will ensure that fairness is at the heart of…decisions so that all those most in need are protected.”
That is all we are asking for in this amendment and the others that follow it.
Unfortunately, the Bill does not provide that fairness. If it goes through as drafted, service provision will, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Wentworth and Dearne said, increasingly be based on the ability to raise local business rates and council tax. As council tax increases will often be subject to a referendum, most of the demand will be put on local business rates.
Mr Kevan Jones
Does my hon. Friend also recognise that, for authorities such as South Tyneside council, which has nearly 50% of its properties in band A—that compares with a figure of 2% for Kensington and Chelsea—the existing system makes it more difficult to raise any additional money from the domestic side of the rates?
Bob Blackman
I will give way in a second. I will cite an example from the past few years, when the previous Government decided to change the rules on the amount of money that was given through the formula for local authorities with large concentrations of black and minority ethnic communities. All of a sudden, funding for local authorities throughout the country with large BME populations would have been decimated because it was one of their great income streams. Huge lobbies took place and the Government backed down.
Mr Kevan Jones
I am interested in what the hon. Gentleman is saying. Can he give a specific example of a council anywhere, irrespective of its political persuasion, that has wanted to turn prosperity away from its area?
Bob Blackman
The key is not that local authorities turn away business or prosperity; I am pointing out that there is an in-built presumption that areas of deprivation follow extra grant from Government. As a direct result, there has been hardly any change in areas of deprivation across the country. Despite the fact that local authorities—of all political persuasions—with areas of deprivation have had huge amounts of money put in over 30 or more years, those areas of deprivation remain the same.
Mr Kevan Jones
It is a privilege to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield South East (Mr Betts), who is not only a distinguished Chair of the Select Committee, but had a long and distinguished career in local government.
Today’s debate reminds me of the Second Reading debate in that, as my hon. Friend said, Members on the Government Benches are trying to have their cake and eat it. They want the nirvana of councils keeping all the business rates while also recognising that there should be some redistribution. The hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) made some strange comments about perverse incentives for councils to remain poor. I am yet to meet such a council, but he tried to get his colleagues to help him come up with an example. Councils in my area work very hard to attract business and prosperity, as they want to make their areas not only pleasant places to live in but economically active. The Government talk about localism a lot, but this Bill centralises more powers in the hands of the Secretary of State than any other local government reform of recent years.
On fairness, if we are to have a system whereby the contribution from national Government to local government is wiped out and we rely on business rates to provide the gap in funding, we must address the fact that different parts of Britain have different needs. Amendment 19 is important as it would ensure that that is reflected in the system.
From listening to some Members on the Government Benches, people would think some parts of the north are responsible for their own unemployment. Those Members fail to remember what happened in the late 1980s, when huge swathes of industry in the north-east were wiped out. Many areas are still recovering from that today.
There are also issues to do with population movement, which can lead to extra demands on local councils such as Durham county, where there is a large elderly population and many people who worked in heavy industry. Health needs in such areas are inevitably greater. Moreover, as County Durham is quite a rural community, even those in work often cannot move from place to place as easily as people in large cities.
I give credit to councils of all political persuasions throughout the country that have tried to encourage business into their areas. I am not convinced that keeping a small slice of the business rate is going to have a major impact, however. We should consider what the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats have done in the north-east in doing away with One North East. It was very effective at working with local councils and other partners to get inward investment and business growth. The hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mark Field) is not in his place at the moment, but he admitted that it is much easier to get business growth in his constituency than it is in mine or in those of many other hon. Members from the north of England.
Graham Jones
My hon. Friend raises a crucial point that has not been mentioned—the role of local enterprise partnerships. Lancashire has had a terrible problem with LEPs, which are skewing investment in certain areas and not interested in other areas—those who have been involved have said as much. The role that LEPs play across these district areas is not promoting business in certain parts, and that is having an adverse consequence. How can business be promoted and how can success be obtained in those conditions? Again, the Government are accountable for this.
Mr Kevan Jones
Again, that is part of the contradiction in the Government’s thinking and policy. As we have seen, LEPs are toothless tigers. They are not going to produce much growth or investment, as I know from the ones in the north-east. Certain people in the business community are becoming increasingly cynical and feel that LEPs are just going to be talking shops, rather than organisations that will do things to regenerate areas or attract growth.
Amendment 19 refers to “need” and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) said, it sets out the important issues that we need to take into consideration. I know from my north-east constituency that unemployment is a very important issue to take into account. The level of unemployment stands at 11.7% in the north-east of England, which is 3.5% above the national average. As my hon. Friend said, unemployment means that additional services are required and it puts further strains on local councils, which is why it is important to take it into account.
This debate is also about where we start from, which is why it is important to take the council tax base level into account. In the north-east, 50% of properties are in the lowest band, band A, whereas the corresponding figure for Surrey is just 2%, with 75% of properties there being in band D and above. It is very difficult for councils in the north-east to raise extra finance outside the business rate, so we are not starting on a level playing field. Mention has been made of South Tyneside, where 66% of properties are in band A, and that must be compared with the figure for Kensington and Chelsea of less than 2%.
Andrew Gwynne
My hon. Friend is making a superb point about the ability of local authorities to raise income from council tax. Is not a major issue for local authorities such as his and mine the fact that the formula grant for 2013-14 will lock in those very real cuts that such local authorities will have had to face from 2011-12 onwards?
Mr Jones
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for mentioning that, because I was about to discuss the baseline, as it has been set at 2011-12 levels. Durham county council had a grant reduction last year of some £10.9 million, which represents about a 4% loss, and that is now going to be set in stone for the next 10 years. Let us compare that with the situation in Wokingham, in Berkshire, whose authority actually had an increase in its grant of 0.2% and each person living there got an extra 30p in grant.
As I said on Second Reading, it is quite clear—I take my hat off to the Conservatives and do not know why the Liberal Democrats are turning a blind eye to this—that the Conservatives are looking after their own. They used to accuse the Labour party of doing so, but the Secretary of State makes no bones about the fact that he will help the people who voted for him. Does he give a stuff about the north-east and other places? No, I do not think he does.
It is important that we consider need because, as I said and as my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North said earlier, with unemployment, a more elderly population and deprivation, people use council services more in such areas. Some 31% of the people living in County Durham, for example, live in the top 20% of the most deprived areas in Britain and 21.8% of children in the county live in homes that are classed as in poverty. In Wokingham, that figure is under 7%. The demand for local services in Durham is obviously a lot higher. Likewise, eight people go for every job in County Durham. A good example is looked-after children: in Wokingham, there are 22 per 10,000 children whereas in Middlesbrough, in the north-east, there are 104 per 10,000.
It is not just about the numbers but about the types of services. Elderly care and services for looked-after children are very expensive to provide. There is no cheap way of looking after elderly people or vulnerable children in care, so that puts added pressure on those councils. That must be taken into account in any assessment, as otherwise we will do exactly what my hon. Friend said that we would. We will start from the premise that this Government like to put out, which is that irrespective of where a local government organisation is in this country, there is a level playing field. There is not. Any system must take need into account and that is why amendment 19 is important and why I do not understand the Government's not being in favour of it.
Another issue that we heard about on Second Reading and that we have heard about again tonight is the idea that by retaining a certain percentage of the business rate councils will be able to incentivise and develop business. That might well be the case in some areas, but councils must cater for other factors, one of which is location. My hon. Friend mentioned Consett. Consett has actually done very well in attracting businesses, but it is a damn sight harder attracting jobs there than it is in parts of the south-east and London.
Graham Stringer
Does my hon. Friend agree that a local authority cannot possibly be incentivised to do more—most of them want to do quite a lot—by reducing the overall level of resources? The contention that a little incentive on one hand and a huge loss of grant on the other will mean that they work harder is extraordinary.
Mr Jones
I totally agree with my hon. Friend. It is a double whammy for local authorities, really, as even if they could keep some of the money and use it for incentivisation, the huge proposed cut through the 10% reduction in council tax benefit that they will have to administer will fall disproportionately on areas with large numbers of unemployed people and the elderly. Absorbing that will be very difficult for a lot of councils, certainly in the hard economic times we are in at the moment. As unemployment goes up, the pressures on the councils will increase, too.
Mr Watts
Is it not the case that if a deprived local authority gets less grant, one way or the other, it will still have to provide the key services that my hon. Friend refers to, which will mean that it will have less money for economic development initiatives in its areas? That will go counter to the Government’s stated intention for this proposal.
Mr Jones
Indeed. When local businesses in my constituency want to expand, the first thing they will ask is, “Where are the grants?”, but there are none any more because One North East has gone and the amount that the council or anyone else has to give to help is usually small. There is a perception that this change will make a real difference to most areas, but it will not; the effect will be marginal at most. My hon. Friend is also right that councils cannot just stop providing elderly care and other services. In the present round of cuts, the problem is trying to explain to people what is statutory and what is not. This Government know exactly what they are doing—[Interruption.] My hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) chuckles, but what I mean is that they know exactly what they are doing politically on this issue.
Mr Jones
A bit far, perhaps. The Government know exactly what they are doing. As I said on Second Reading, their strategy is quite clear: they want to give freedoms to local councils, push decision making down as far as possible and then, when they have cut grants, as they will with council tax benefit and others, they will say to local people, “Well, it’s your local council that has to decide how and where the cuts come.” The Government will stand back and say, “We’re sorry, but it’s nothing to do with us.” That is the clever side of it. Part of their strategy is about making sure that they save money and cut it out of the system but that local councils, rather than themselves, get the blame for implementing the cuts.
Andrew Gwynne
Does my hon. Friend agree that an unforeseen consequence of the Bill could be that local authorities become overly dependent on one type of economic development—the type they can generate the most from in business rates? In an area such as mine, that would mean an overdependence on retail.
Mr Jones
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. In terms of economic development, local authorities might go for what will generate income rather than what will create the right mixture. Although retail shopping and warehousing produce business rates, they do not produce large numbers of local jobs, but there might be a growth in those types of business in some areas.
We should not be fooled into believing that the Government do not know what they are doing, because they do know. They are passing legislation down to local government and making sure that those in central Government do not get the blame. We need to be saying that these cuts have been implemented because of the Government—including the Liberal Democrats. It amazes me that Liberal Democrats in Durham can complain about the closure of leisure services or a leisure centre while stepping back and saying, “It’s nothing to do with us,” even though their representatives on the Front Bench in government and others are going through the Lobby to vote for such measures, as they will tonight. Without amendment 19, and without some assessment of need in the Bill, I have little faith that the Government will not do what they have a track record of doing: rewarding the areas that vote for them.
The Second Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. Mr Jones, please stop shouting across the Chamber. Either try and intervene or please be quiet.
Robert Neill
Before I give way to the hon. Gentleman, he might like to reflect on this. He has been very vocal about the Second Reading debate. I remind him of this passage, when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, following this very point, said:
“Economic success is not a southern phenomenon”,
and the hon. Gentleman intervened and said:
“Yes, it is.”—[Official Report, 10 January 2012; Vol. 538, c. 81.]
Would he like to explain that?
Mr Jones
The Minister does not quite understand. It is for me to ask him questions in interventions, not the other way round. He said that there were perverse incentives in local government. Can he name one council where that is the case? The hon. Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) could not.
Robert Neill
My hon. Friend specifically gave the example of his own council. The point that the hon. Gentleman and many other Opposition Members do not get is that the Bill is not just about dealing with the short-term issues of one-year funding settlements. It is about creating a system that certainly has an element of equalisation in it, because as we all know, all local government finance systems going back many years have always had a degree of equalisation. The hon. Member for Sheffield South East, the Chairman of the Select Committee—