House of Commons
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Prayers
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Oral Answers to Questions
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)
1. What recent discussions she has had with the First Minister on the remit of a commission on devolution and funding for Wales.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)
The Government are committed to a Calman-like process for Wales and will be putting forward proposals. I have discussed the issue with the First Minister, and will be continuing to have discussions with relevant colleagues and of course the First Minister.
Paul Murphy
The Secretary of State will know that the Northern Ireland Executive can borrow money and the Scottish Government will soon be able to borrow money, but the Welsh Government cannot. With the cutback in capital spending on schools and hospitals, is it not now time for the right hon. Lady to enter into immediate negotiations with the Welsh Government and the First Minister so that the Welsh Government can also borrow money?
Mrs Gillan
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that question. He is effectively asking why Wales is the only home nation without borrowing powers. It is fair to say that the new borrowing powers for Scottish Ministers, which are set out in the Scotland Bill, will not take effect until 2015-16, which is in line with our commitment not to change the system until stabilisation of public finances. May I make it clear that we are not ruling borrowing powers for the Welsh Government in or out at this stage.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
The recent Labour Government amply demonstrated their enthusiasm for taxing and borrowing. Does my right hon. Friend think that it would be wise to allow the Welsh Assembly to follow that example?
Mrs Gillan
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that question. [Hon. Members: “No, you’re not.”] Despite the laughter from the Opposition, I am grateful to him. However, I cannot be drawn on this, and as I answered straightforwardly, we are not ruling it in or out at this stage. I want to have those discussions with the First Minister and other colleagues for the simple reason that many commentators, including the First Minister, are unsure of exactly what powers the Welsh Government would like to have.
As with the Calman process, it is right that we try to reach consensus on this and move forward. It is far too important a matter to be rushed or dealt with in a cavalier fashion.
Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
Very important though borrowing powers are, would the right hon. Lady assure the House that the remit of the Calman-style commission will be far broader than matters financial, given the excellent work already carried out by the Holtham commission?
Mrs Gillan
I am committed to establishing a process for the Assembly that is similar to that set out by the Calman commission. I have made it clear that we intend to review the financing arrangements for Welsh devolution. I must repeat, however, that I think that this matter is far too important to Wales, and far too important a subject matter, to be rushed or not to be discussed fully. I am seeing the First Minister on Monday to take forward our discussions and I do not want to pre-empt them by setting any parameters.
Mr Llwyd
No doubt the right hon. Lady would not wish to pre-empt any decision, but in a co-operative spirit, may I suggest that matters administrative and constitutional should be considered? I am thinking of the possibility of devolving police and justice powers to Wales, for which there is a huge amount of support throughout Wales. On the vital issue of broadcasting, it is high time that Wales had control of its own broadcasting; S4C would not be in its current position if there were such control.
Mrs Gillan
The right hon. Gentleman is trying to lay out his own manifesto and his party’s position with clarity, but that is not how we want to take matters forward. May I make it clear that I know how important S4C is to the Welsh language and culture? We have reached an arrangement on it, and I assure him that I will always look to the interests of S4C because I know how important a part it is of Wales’s culture.
Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)
2. What recent discussions she has had with the First Minister on the devolution of planning decisions for electricity projects with a generating capacity greater than 50 megawatts.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
My right hon. Friend has regular discussions with the First Minister about issues that affect Wales, including energy.
My right hon. Friend has received no formal requests from the First Minister on the specific issue of devolving planning decisions for electricity projects with a generating capacity greater than 50 megawatts.
Mr Williams
I thank the Minister for that response. Perhaps this matter could be included in Monday’s discussions. Will he acknowledge the concern that has been expressed by the First Minister, people from all parties and especially campaigners in mid-Wales against large-scale wind turbine developments? They feel it would be completely in line with the devolution settlement to transfer this power, so that decisions about large energy projects are made in Wales by Welsh Ministers.
Mr Jones
There is considerable concern in north and mid-Wales about large-scale energy developments, but I must tell my hon. Friend that there are no plans to devolve such competence to the Welsh Assembly Government. The big problem in mid-Wales is not that competence for energy consents resides in Westminster, but that the Assembly Government’s planning policy—in the form of technical advice note 8—has a strong presumption in favour of wind farm development in certain areas. That is the difficulty and it lies with the Welsh Assembly Government to amend.
Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)
For successful energy projects to go ahead in Wales so that it can reach its potential, we need proper infrastructure. The First Minister and local government want the same deal for ports development as England has—a level playing field. This is a reserved matter: will the Minister and Secretary of State stand up for Wales?
Mr Jones
As the hon. Gentleman knows full well, Barnett consequentials were given to the Welsh Assembly Government and they have decided not to implement them on port developments in Wales. I suggest that he has a strong word with the First Minister and pleads with him to divert money to that cause.
Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)
3. What recent discussions she has had with the First Minister on the establishment of enterprise zones in Wales; and if she will make a statement.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)
I had initial discussions with the First Minister on the day of the Budget, following the announcement of the introduction of enterprise zones in England. I have also written making clear my commitment to work with the Welsh Government to establish enterprise zones in Wales. I am therefore delighted that the First Minister has now confirmed that Wales will benefit from enterprise zones. Having zones in Wales will provide a much-needed boost to businesses and make Wales more attractive to investors.
Guto Bebb
I thank the Secretary of State for her answer, which is most welcome. Conwy county corporate plan and the Wales spatial plan have identified Llandudno junction in my constituency as an area that is ready for growth. In my view, an enterprise zone at Llandudno junction would move from a potential for growth to real growth and create real employment in my constituency. What we need to see is co-operation between Westminster and the Assembly to ensure that that happens.
Mrs Gillan
I agree entirely with my hon. Friend, who is a great champion for Aberconwy and has mentioned this matter to me before. I would welcome meetings with any Welsh Members of Parliament who think that their constituency would be an ideal location for an enterprise zone. Indeed, I have already met some Members who have made such representations.
I encourage my hon. Friend to make contact with the Minister for Business, Enterprise and Technology in the Welsh Assembly. We were all surprised and disappointed that she is not yet able to agree to appear before the Welsh Affairs Committee. I encourage her to rethink that decision and to work together with the Wales Office in a spirit of co-operation, because that would be in the interests of Welsh business.
Mr Speaker
Order. I am rather surprised and disappointed by the slow progress today. We must speed up.
Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
Given the Secretary of State’s discussions about enterprise zones with the First Minister and other Welsh Assembly Ministers, does she accept that whatever we do on the ground in Wales, and whatever stimulus the Welsh Assembly can provide, we still need a proper fiscal stimulus from her colleagues in the Cabinet here? What discussions has she had with her colleagues in the Treasury about ensuring that growth happens?
Mrs Gillan
The hon. Lady makes a very good point, and that is exactly why, following the Budget, there was an increased provision for the Welsh Assembly Government of £65 million. Just to correct any figures that have been bandied about, I have checked with the Treasury and £10 million of that £65 million was Barnett consequentials for enterprise zone expenditure, and £20 million was for small business rate relief consequentials. I am sure that with £30 million the Welsh Assembly Government will be able to do something.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
Since the sad demise of the Development Board for Rural Wales, there has been virtually no support for manufacturing in mid-Wales. Will the Secretary of State declare that rural Wales will not be ruled out in the consideration of enterprise zones?
Mrs Gillan
My hon. Friend asks me to step outside my brief, because I do not have responsibility for the enterprise zones in Wales. But I am sure that the Minister for Business, Enterprise and Technology in Wales will hear what he has said, and I encourage him to engage with her to discuss the possibilities for rural Wales.
Hywel Williams (Arfon) (PC)
A potential problem with enterprise zones, as the Chairman of the Treasury Committee has pointed out, is that jobs are transferred in, rather than new jobs being created. What steps can be taken to avoid that unwelcome outcome?
Mrs Gillan
The hon. Gentleman knows that I have been concerned about the position of Wales and enterprise zones from the minute that they were announced for England, not least because we have announced that there will be enterprise zones at Bristol and Merseyside. I am concerned that the enterprise zones on the English side of the border will affect inward investment in Wales, which is why I encouraged the Welsh Government to engage with us so that we can establish mechanisms that do not allow those two enterprise zones, which are so close to Wales, to suck business out of Wales.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
4. What assessment she has made of the potential effects on Wales of implementation of the provisions of the Welfare Reform Bill.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
The Bill legislates for the biggest change to the welfare system for more than 60 years. Through our radical reform of the welfare system we are creating a new universal credit which will simplify the system, make work pay and combat worklessness and poverty in Wales and throughout Britain.
Paul Flynn
Last week, the Royal National Institute for the Blind condemned the Government’s welfare cuts as unfair. This week, bankers have new bonuses. When are the Government going to stop blaming the previous Labour Government, or the next one, for all their problems and start taking responsibility for their own decisions that reward fat cat bankers and cheat those on low pay, the vulnerable and the disabled?
Mr Jones
The Government’s welfare reforms are aimed at ensuring that the welfare system will continue to support those in greatest need. That is particularly important in areas of high unemployment, such as those in parts of Wales. This Government are ensuring that never again can it be said that being out of work pays and being in work does not pay. That is what we seek to achieve.
Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central) (LD)
The Welfare Reform Bill devolves the discretionary social fund to local authorities in England. What discussions has the Minister had with colleagues in the Department for Work and Pensions and the Welsh Assembly to ensure that after this devolution the residents of Wales will still have access to the support and financial assistance that they need?
Mr Peter Hain (Neath) (Lab)
The Government told Parliament that the cost of disability living allowance will be cut by a fifth—or 20%. Will the Minister tell the House what loss of income that might mean for the average DLA claimant in Wales and how many will be affected?
Mr Jones
As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the programme is aimed at helping people get into work, including those who are in receipt of DLA. It is essential that the interests of those in receipt of DLA are properly protected, which is what this Government are committed to doing.
Mr Hain
The truth is that the Minister has not got a clue about how to answer that question, so let me help him out. Calculations backed by figures from the House of Commons Library suggest that the average reduction will be £14 per week for 125,000 DLA claimants in Wales, which amounts to a total of £90 million a year or more than £700 each. Has he any idea how much suffering that will cost when we also take into account sky-high VAT, food and petrol prices? The truth is that under this Government, rich bankers are coining it while the most vulnerable and needy are punished. It is the same old nasty Tories. When will he and the Secretary of State stand up for the people in Wales?
Mr Jones
May I remind the right hon. Gentleman that the reforms that we have in hand are caused in large measure by the fact that his Government completely destroyed the economy of this country and ensured that it did not pay to work? Our reforms will ensure that those in receipt of DLA will be properly taken care of, but we will also make certain that those who can work will work, and that work will pay.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
5. What recent discussions she has had with the Secretary of State for Transport on the electrification of the Great Western main line to Swansea; and if she will make a statement.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
My right hon. Friend continues to have discussions with our right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport about this matter. The announcement of electrification made on 1 March is excellent news for all parts of south and south-west Wales, as I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will agree.
Geraint Davies
The Minister will know how disappointed businesses and people in west Wales and Swansea are about the lack of electrification to Swansea. Will he and the Secretary of State ensure in their discussions with the Secretary of State for Transport that there is every prospect that costs may be reduced by European funding—either convergence, or transnational transport funding—and that benefits may be increased by greater frequency on the back of Premier League status for Swansea City? Will he make every effort to get electrification to Swansea?
Mr Jones
I commend the efforts that the hon. Gentleman is making on behalf of his constituents. Of course, as he knows, and as the Secretary of State made clear when she addressed the Swansea Business Club, the issue of electrification to Swansea is not closed. It is a matter for local government, this Government and, indeed, the EU to consider what options can be pursued to ensure, if possible, the electrification of the line to Swansea.
Mrs Siân C. James (Swansea East) (Lab)
We have heard a great deal about the electrification to Swansea, but have we thought about freight? More tonnage is carried between Llanelli and Cardiff than between Bristol and Swindon, so freight is really important along that line. I am very concerned that all the calculations have been based on passenger figures.
Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)
Talking of trains, the Minister will be aware that the Secretary of State has offered to resign over high-speed rail going through her constituency. The people of Wales are grateful for the offer, but we wonder whether the Minister might ask her when the precise date will be to trigger it. As we are a generous people, we would very much like to give her a good send-off—
Mr Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman’s question must relate to the subject matter on the Order Paper, not to a question that we have not reached—though we might—so I am sure that he will want to refer to the electrification of Great Western main line to Swansea and the Secretary of State’s stance on that matter.
Owen Smith
Will the Minister ask the Secretary of State whether she would be happy to resign over the failure to deliver the electrification of the railway to Swansea and the valleys, as she is happy to resign over matters in her constituency?
Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)
Unlike my colleagues from Wales, my constituents in Bristol will benefit from the electrification of the Great Western main line. However, there will still be real problems of undercapacity on the line. May I urge the Minister, when he talks to the Department for Transport and when they negotiate the new franchise, to consider those issues, too?
Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
6. What recent estimate she has made of the number of public sector job losses in Wales during the comprehensive spending review period.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)
A forecast of public sector job losses was published last year by the Office for Budget Responsibility. That forecast was based on UK-wide macro-economic data and no regional breakdown is available. I remain committed to working with ministerial colleagues to minimise the impact that essential reductions in public expenditure have on Welsh workers and their families.
Mrs Gillan
As the hon. Gentleman knows, the settlement for Wales was more generous than for many other parts of the United Kingdom. Over the comprehensive spending review, there were cuts of some 2% in the Barnettised money going to the Welsh Assembly Government. I urge him to talk to his friends in the Welsh Government, because many public sector jobs depend on the Welsh Government and the operations in Cardiff bay.
Simon Hart (Carmarthen West and South Pembrokeshire) (Con)
The Secretary of State will be aware that Dyfed-Powys police have announced this week that they have recruited 39 new police officers for the front line. Will she join me in commending the chief constable for getting his priorities right and not spreading scare stories for political benefit?
Mrs Gillan
I thank my hon. Friend for reminding us that there are not always cuts in public sector jobs. In some instances, there is recruitment to public sector jobs. I congratulate his chief constable. I regularly meet the four chief constables in Wales, and they are all very positive about their forces and their operations protecting the public in Wales.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
Does the Secretary of State share my concern about the report leaked last week indicating that seven out of eight HMRC offices in Wales are to be closed, leaving only one in Cardiff, with a loss of more than 1,000 jobs?
Mrs Gillan
The hon. Gentleman should know that I met HMRC earlier this week to discuss the reports in the press. I am pleased to say that there are no new announcements of HMRC office closures or moves in Wales at this time. HMRC has assured me that any office closures will not lead to job reductions beyond those already required by the spending review and that there are no plans to reduce the number of HMRC offices in Wales.
Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)
7. What assessment she has made of the potential effects on Wales of implementation of the provisions of the Welfare Reform Bill.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr David Jones)
I refer the right hon. Lady to my earlier answer to the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn).
Mr Jones
That is not a description that I recognise. It is certainly the case that in many south Wales valleys, endemic worklessness is a problem. The Government’s reforms aim to ensure that those who can work are helped into work and those who are unable to work get the support that they need.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
10. What discussions she has had on the potential devolution of powers to set rates of stamp duty in Wales.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)
I note the First Minister’s statement last week on his Government’s priorities for financial reform and accountability, but I have had no representations from the Welsh Government on the proposals as yet.
Mrs Gillan
I am not sure where the hon. Gentleman gets the impression that people in our Government do not talk to each other. We talk to each other all the time. I have many meetings with the Chief Secretary to the Treasury and the Chancellor, and I am able to discuss matters that affect Wales on each and every occasion.
Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)
11. What assessment she has made of the performance of the Welsh economy since May 2010; and if she will make a statement.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)
First, I welcome the hon. Lady’s interest in Wales and its economy. The economy is starting to return to growth, and I am pleased that we are beginning to see signs of improvement in employment levels in Wales. We have had to make difficult decisions in order to reduce the massive deficit that we inherited. Our policies are the right ones to restore business confidence and move people into the jobs that they need.
Mr Speaker
Order. There are far too many private conversations taking place in the Chamber, including one that I have just concluded.
Rosie Cooper
I apologise, Mr Speaker; I could not hear. With 5.5 people chasing every job vacancy in Wales, does the Secretary of State consider job creation to be a priority? What, if anything, have she and her Government done about it?
Mrs Gillan
I am afraid that I did not catch the whole of the hon. Lady’s question. However, the Government recognise that the private sector will lead economic recovery in the UK. I am proud of our record of supporting businesses, and I am proud of what is happening in Wales, where the latest unemployment statistics reveal more people in work and fewer on the unemployment register.
Mr Speaker
Clearly, if the Secretary of State cannot hear questions, the noise is too loud, and it is impeding the process. Let us give a fair hearing to Mr Alun Cairns.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
Private sector job creation is the only way to grow the Welsh economy sustainably. Does my right hon. Friend recognise that enterprise zones have a key role to play in that respect, and does she agree that Barry would make a great location for Wales’s first enterprise zone?
Mrs Gillan
The hon. Gentleman certainly punches above his height. The Vale of Glamorgan could have no greater champion. I refer him to the Minister for Business, Enterprise and Technology in the Welsh Assembly, who I am sure will be able to help him and make his dreams come true.
Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)
12. What assessment she has made of the potential effects of High Speed 2 on the economy of Wales.
The Secretary of State for Wales (Mrs Cheryl Gillan)
The Government are currently consulting on a new national high-speed rail network. That is part of a wider programme of modernisation of the rail network, including electrification of the Great Western main line to Cardiff.
Susan Elan Jones
I have heard of trains cancelled because of snow on the line and leaves on the line, but never before because of the Secretary of State on the line. The high-speed rail link, HS2, would bring great benefits to Wales, but our Buckinghamshire-based Secretary of State opposes it. If our Secretary of State will not stand up for Wales, why does she not resign?
Mrs Gillan
I thank the hon. Lady for her close interest in my career. The Government are having an open consultation on HS2, and now that she has expressed such a great interest in the subject, we will expect her representations.
Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con)
Q1. If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 29 June.
The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)
This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall have further such meetings later today.
Karen Lumley
What does my right hon. Friend say to the teachers at Vaynor first school, who are putting the education of children and welfare of the parents first by not striking tomorrow?
The Prime Minister
I congratulate them on doing the right thing and keeping their school open. I do not believe that there is any case for industrial action tomorrow, not least because talks are still ongoing. Only a minority of unions have taken the decision to go ahead and strike. I want to see as many mums and dads as possible able to take their children to school tomorrow. What we are proposing is fair. It is fair to taxpayers and also fair to the public sector because we want to continue strong public sector pensions.
Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)
There are currently 163 statutory organisations in the national health service. Can the Prime Minister tell us how many there will be after his top-down reorganisation?
The Prime Minister
What I can tell the right hon. Gentleman is that the health reforms, which now have the support of former health Minister Lord Darzi, will see a reduction in bureaucracy because we are getting rid of strategic health authorities and primary care trusts.
Edward Miliband
Let me give the Prime Minister the answer to the question. The number will go up from 163 to 521: pathfinder consortia, health and wellbeing boards, shadow commissioning groups, authorised commissioning groups, a national commissioning board, PCT clusters, SHA clusters, clinical networks and clinical senates. Is that what he meant by a bonfire of the quangos?
The Prime Minister
If the right hon. Gentleman looks at the figures for savings, he will see that we are saving £5 billion through the reduction of bureaucracy. That is what is happening. We inherited a situation whereby the number of managers was going up four times as fast as the number of nurses. Since we took over, the number of doctors has gone up and the number of bureaucrats has gone down.
Edward Miliband
I will tell the Prime Minister about our record on the NHS: more doctors and nurses than ever, and the shortest waiting lists and highest patient satisfaction ever. The right hon. Gentleman says that he will save money, but he has refused to publish the figures accompanying the new amendments to the Health and Social Care Bill for how much he will spend. Perhaps he can tell me—the figures are available—how much he will spend on making NHS staff redundant.
The Prime Minister
Let me give the right hon. Gentleman the figures on the costs and the benefits of reducing the bureaucracy. Changes will have a one-off cost of £1.4 billion over the next two years, but more than £5 billion will be saved in total during this Parliament. Over 10 years, there will be net savings of £12.3 billion. Add to that the fact that we are putting £11.5 billion extra into the NHS; he fought the last election pledging to cut it.
Edward Miliband
The Prime Minister did not answer the specific question that I asked, which was how much he was spending on making NHS staff redundant. The answer is £852 million. Will he guarantee to the House that none of those staff will be re-hired to do their old jobs at his new quangos?
The Prime Minister
What we are doing is implementing—[Interruption.] Yes. We are implementing the £20 billion cost savings that were set out by the Labour party when it was in government. But the difference is that we are going on with putting more money into the NHS—money that the Labour party does not support—so that there will be more nurses, more doctors, more operations in our health service, and a better NHS compared with cuts from the Labour party.
Edward Miliband
Let me just ask the question again, because the right hon. Gentleman did not answer it. People are very concerned that he is creating a whole new set of quangos. Will he tell us the answer to this simple question? Can he guarantee that none of the people being made redundant will be re-hired to do their old jobs at his new quangos? It is a simple question: yes or no?
The Prime Minister
I know that the right hon. Gentleman has this extraordinary vision of how the NHS is run, but it is not the Prime Minister who hires every person in every organisation in the NHS. The difference between this coalition Government and the Labour party is that we are investing in the NHS, putting resources into the NHS, reforming the NHS in a way that is supported by the Royal College of Surgeons, the Royal College of Physicians, Tony Blair, Lord Darzi and most people working in the NHS, but not by the Labour party. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. The decibel level is—[Interruption.] Order. The decibel level is far too high. The Prime Minister should not have to shout to make himself heard.
Edward Miliband
The whole country will have heard that the Prime Minister has admitted the Government are spending £852 million on making people redundant, and he cannot even promise that they will not be re-hired to do their old jobs. Is not this the truth? He promised no top-down reorganisation; he is doing it. He promised a bonfire of the quangos; he is creating more. He promised a better deal for patients and things are getting worse. What people are asking up and down this country is: what is he doing to our NHS?
The Prime Minister
What the whole country will have noticed is that at a time when people are worried about strikes, the right hon. Gentleman cannot ask about strikes because he is in the pocket of the unions. What the whole country will have noticed is that at a time when Greece is facing huge problems over its deficit, he cannot talk about Greece because his plan is to make Britain like Greece. What the whole country will have noticed is that at a time when the economy is the key issue, he cannot talk about the economy because of his ludicrous plan for tax cuts. That is what we see, week after week. He has to talk about the micro because he cannot talk about the macro.
Mr Speaker
We are very grateful. I call Guto Bebb. [Interruption.] Order. I appeal to the House to calm down and reflect on what the public think of this sort of behaviour.
Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)
Will the Prime Minister agree that Aneurin Bevan would be turning in his grave as he sees a Conservative Secretary of State increase spending on the health service in England while a Labour Government in Cardiff cut spending on the NHS?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend has an extremely good point. I hope it is in order to talk about Labour’s record in Wales, because if anybody wants to know what would happen to the NHS under Labour, they can look at Wales, where it is slashing the NHS budget and actually seeing more people waiting for longer. That is what happens when you get a Labour party running the NHS.
Ian Lucas (Wrexham) (Lab)
Q2. The Leader of the Opposition’s feed-in tariff helped to create 300 more jobs at Sharp in Wrexham earlier this year, but today, because of this Government’s reversal of policy, the Renewable Energy Association says that solar generation and the jobs and growth linked to it are in turmoil. Who knows better—the Prime Minister or British business?
The Prime Minister
Anyone looking at what this Government are doing in terms of renewable energy can see a massive investment in renewable energy—the £3 billion going into the green investment bank; the massive incentives given under the renewable heat initiative. We had to stop the abuse of solar power, where clearly the regime was not set in the right way, but anyone looking at that industry can see a huge boost from this Government.
Sir Peter Tapsell (Louth and Horncastle) (Con)
Despite the gravity of the financial situation against which the Bank of England is preparing contingency plans, have the Government also got a team working on the details of a new treaty, in case, as seems probable, the European Union has to be considerably changed?
The Prime Minister
May I first of all say to the Father of the House, on behalf, I believe, of the whole House, what great pleasure it gives me to refer to him as my right hon. Friend, after his many years of service in the House? What I would say to him is that we have, quite rightly, used the opportunity of the new treaty change being put forward to protect Britain’s interest and get us out of the bail-out mechanism for the future. Of course, if new proposals come along, we could use that opportunity again, but I think right now the priority must be to work for stability in the eurozone, not least because 40% of our exports go to eurozone countries. Britain is playing a constructive role in making sure that that happens.
Emily Thornberry (Islington South and Finsbury) (Lab)
Q3. Does the Prime Minister agree with the Deputy Prime Minister that the idea of introducing a marriage tax allowance is “patronising drivel”?
The Prime Minister
The Deputy Prime Minister and I agree about many, many things, but that is set down in the coalition agreement; this is one area where we do not agree. I am a strong supporter of the institution of marriage. I do believe that it would be a good idea to recognise it in the tax system.
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
Q4. Last week, six illegal migrant workers were arrested in my constituency; all had national insurance numbers and were paying national insurance. Why cannot we prevent illegal workers from being issued with national insurance numbers in the first place—or, at the very least, flag those national insurance numbers so that the tax authorities and the UK Border Agency know that these people are not allowed to work?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point, and I have discussed this with him. As he knows, the application process for national insurance numbers for adults does include an identity check and the precondition that the individual is entitled to work. None the less, as my hon. Friend’s case demonstrates, although national insurance numbers should not be issued to those with no entitlement to work, that is happening. We are looking very closely at the idea of marking national insurance numbers in the way that he suggests.
Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)
Q5. At a time when the NHS is under financial pressure and people in Wirral are being hit by steep rises in prices, please will the Prime Minister tell me whether he agrees with his friends on the Government Benches, who think that costly tax breaks for those who can choose private health care should be a priority?
Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con)
The Prime Minister will be aware that core inflation for small businesses is at its highest level for three years. Will the Prime Minister recognise that problem, but especially tell us what more he can do to increase demand, which remains at best very sluggish?
The Prime Minister
I can tell my hon. Friend what we have done to help the economy. Obviously, this year a key problem for small business is the cost of fuel. We have cut fuel duty, abolished the escalator and put off the retail prices index increase to next year, making a difference of around 6p per gallon. That makes a difference. We also, with the banks, have the Merlin agreement for extra lending to small business, we have cut corporation tax for small business and we have helped on business rates for small business. This is a very small business-friendly Government.
Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab)
Q6. Four years ago, the Prime Minister said that the extremist organisation Hizb ut-Tahrir should be banned immediately. He has promised to do just that on countless occasions—in the House, elsewhere and even in his election manifesto. Why has he not done what he promised to do so many times? Will he go back to Downing street and ban that organisation today?
The Prime Minister
We have taken action against the extremist group the Tehrik-e-Taliban, and we have banned it. We are looking extremely carefully at Hizb ut-Tahrir. In my view, what it has said goes well beyond what a legal organisation should say, but this has to be done under the law.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
Q7. Labour’s former pensions Minister, describes the current position on public sector pensions as completely untenable. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is unacceptable that tomorrow a small minority of trade unions will cause disruption to thousands of people across the country?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and Labour Members clearly do not want to talk about this issue. A small minority of unions has gone ahead with action, which is irresponsible and I do not believe it is fair, whereas our proposals are fair. He is right that Lord Hutton, a former Labour Minister, has written an extremely good report making the simple point that as we live longer, which is good news, we shall have to contribute more to public sector pensions and work longer. I stress that we are doing this not in any way to undermine public sector pensions but to safeguard good, defined benefit systems for the future. In my view there is a contract between taxpayers and public sector workers that says, “You work in the public sector; we will support you in old age,” but it must be sustainable.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
Is the Prime Minister aware of the concerns that have been expressed about the new arrangements for repatriating the bodies of our servicemen and women killed on active service following the transfer to Brize Norton? What arrangements and facilities will be put in place at Brize Norton for bereaved families and to allow the public to express their condolences and respect for our fallen?
The Prime Minister
I am well aware of the issue, not least because Brize Norton is in my west Oxfordshire constituency. A lot of thought has gone into how to do this in the right way, and a lot of care and thought will go into how to look after the families. It is right that we mark the passage from Wootton Bassett—soon to be Royal Wootton Bassett—to Brize Norton, and that will be done too.
Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)
My constituency is proud to be home to Weeton Army barracks, but after so many years of loyal and brave assistance is it not time that we did the right thing by service personnel and gave them priority in housing?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an important point. We have for the first time put the military covenant into law, which is important in ensuring that military personnel are not discriminated against. It is right for every council to look at what it can do positively to help those who serve our country. That is certainly what my local council does in west Oxfordshire and, in the light of Brize Norton, I encourage others to do the same. The new Government policy of Firstbuy Direct helps first-time buyers on to the housing ladder, and I am pleased that the housing Minister is ensuring that the policy is taken round to Army and other military bases to make sure that military personnel can take advantage of it.
Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)
This week marks the first anniversary of the Backbench Business Committee. Does the Prime Minister think that over the past year Parliament has become better at holding the Government to account? If so, may we offer our help in unblocking some of the measures that are stuck in the legislative pipeline?
The Prime Minister
I congratulate the Backbench Committee. Over the past year, it has made a difference in Parliament. It is right that Parliament can choose to debate a subject of its choosing on a motion of its choosing and at a time of its choosing. The Committee has arranged for a range of issues to be discussed, from the very mundane to the quite obscure—it has, if you like, been a year of bread and circuses. There we are—I got it out. It is a good idea and I want it to go on working, although I would like to take a little credit as it was this Government who gave up power and allowed this to happen.
Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con)
Q9. People in Devon earn about £2,964 a year less than the UK national average, yet our average water bill, at £517, is the highest in the country and well above the national average of £356. Does the Prime Minister agree that the third option outlined in the recent Department for Food, Environment and Rural Affairs consultation on water affordability, suggesting a Government subsidy of about £50 per south-west household, would go a long way to righting this unfairness?
The Prime Minister
The excessive water bills in the south-west have been an issue for many years. I am proud of the fact that, within a year, this Government decided to grip it. We are determined to lower the water bills of households in the south-west. We pledged that in the Budget, and we will set out our proposals in the water White Paper to be published in November.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
Q10. The crisis at Southern Cross has raised fears about the viability of the residential care sector, so will the Prime Minister inject some urgency into his Government’s review of companies that provide care services? We need a belt-and-braces plan to stop the elderly worrying about the place that they call home.
The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman makes an extremely important point. Many of us, myself included, have care homes in our constituencies run by Southern Cross and we are extremely concerned about what has happened and what is happening. The Health Department, the Treasury and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills are following this very closely. We are taking powers in the Health and Social Care Bill to make sure that we regulate these organisations properly. Local authorities have the necessary powers to take over the running of care homes if required, so I believe that we are planning for all contingencies in the correct way.
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Q11. Given the high cost of petrol, which is crucifying motorists in Harlow and across the country, will my right hon. Friend support the FairFuelUK campaign, urge oil companies to reduce petrol prices at the pump in line with market prices, and review the 3p increase next January?
The Prime Minister
I want to see every chance for lower prices to be passed on to the consumer. The Government have certainly taken their necessary measures: the 1p cut in fuel duty this year, putting off the RPI increase and the abolition of the fuel escalator that the Labour party put in place. All those things will make a difference. We also took part in the release of oil stocks with the Americans, which has seen the oil price come down and ease somewhat. We need to ensure that we have a good competitive sector that passes on price cuts right through the country.
Dr William McCrea (South Antrim) (DUP)
Q12. As the review of the air passenger duty continues, will the Prime Minister accept that the situation is urgent, especially in my constituency of South Antrim, with Belfast International airport, given that APD is levied at £120 on a long-haul flight, when our competitors in the Irish Republic have a levy of just €3? That endangers the continental air link between Northern Ireland and New York. Something urgent must be done now.
The Prime Minister
I absolutely understand the hon. Gentleman’s point and I know that, with Belfast International airport in his constituency, it is of personal concern to him. When I went to Northern Ireland, people explained to me the importance of maintaining that direct air link to the United States. It is vital for the long-term health of the Province, so I want to see this happen. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has spoken to people in Northern Ireland about this, we are reviewing the options and we will make clear a path forward.
Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con)
Q13. My right hon. Friend will know that our colleague Lord Bates is walking from Olympia in Greece to London, a journey of some 4,000 miles, to raise awareness of the Olympic truce. Will the Prime Minister ensure that when the UK Government table their resolution for observance of the Olympic truce at the United Nations General Assembly later this year, we will add specific proposals for peace and reconciliation so that we can maximise this historic opportunity?
The Prime Minister
The whole House will want to congratulate Lord Bates on his great feat. [Laughter.] I am sorry about that, it was accidental. We will promote a fresh resolution at the UN calling for the continued observance of the Olympic truce for the 2012 games. We wish to make the most of that historic opportunity, we are considering other international initiatives to promote the spirit of the truce and—it says here—the Foreign and Commonwealth Office is engaging with our embassies worldwide.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
Will not parents up and down the land be horrified to know that, under the Government’s proposals in the Protection of Freedoms Bill, a person convicted of raping a child will not automatically be put on the barred list for working with children in the future?
The Prime Minister
What we have done in terms of vetting and barring is remove a huge number of people who are not a risk to children, but we do want to make sure that the system works well so that anyone who has criminal convictions is, as the hon. Lady said, barred.
Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)
Does the Prime Minister believe that drugs policy has been failing for decades, as he said in 2005, and does he agree that the Government should initiate a discussion of alternative ways, including the possibility of legalisation and regulation, to tackle the global drugs dilemma, as he voted for in 2002?
The Prime Minister
I do not believe that we should legalise any drugs that are currently criminal, but I do believe that drugs policy has been a failure over recent years. There has been insufficient attention to the two key areas of education––warning people of the dangers of drugs––and treatment. One of the ways to collapse the drugs market is to have a more effective treatment system. In this country particularly, we have spent too much time on heroin replacement and methadone rather than on trying to get people clean and clear up all the things in their lives that perhaps cause them to take drugs in the first place.
Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)
Has the Prime Minister himself been involved in seeking a solution to the appalling problems in Sudan, especially south Kordofan and, given the United Nations’ concern about 60,000 people being displaced, as well as other huge humanitarian problems, will he use his influence on the eve of independence to ensure that north and south are seen to work together?
The Prime Minister
As the right hon. Gentleman knows, we are deeply involved in seeking a successful outcome to this process: we fund a lot of the African Union talks process that has been ongoing, and my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has visited the country, as has the Africa Minister. Britain has done a huge amount to try to make sure the comprehensive peace agreement is fully implemented and there is a peaceful settlement between the two countries. Clearly there is a lot more work to do however, and, yes, I keep a personal perspective on this issue as well.
Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con)
What does the Prime Minister think is more fair and progressive: the coalition Government’s policy of safeguarding defined benefit pension schemes in the public sector, or Labour’s £100-billion smash and grab on private pension funds, which directly contributed to the demise of defined benefit schemes in the private sector?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point, and I note that we are 26 minutes into Question Time yet we have not heard a squeak from Labour Members about strikes, pensions or the need for reform. Because they are all paid for by the trade unions, they cannot talk about this issue. What the coalition Government are doing is right, because we are saying that we want to have a defined benefit system in the public sector. We want to make sure all those accrued rights are kept, and people will still be able to take those accrued rights at the age they were originally allowed to take them. Just to put this beyond doubt, when people who are currently in a final salary scheme get the accrued benefits, they will be based on their final salary; not their final salary now or when the reforms go through, but the final salary when they retire. As so much myth and misinformation has been put around by some in the trade unions, it is important to put that on the record here in the House.
Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)
Compared with the same period last year, crime overall in London is up, including a 15% rise in robbery and an 18% rise in burglary. At the same time the Mayor of London has budgeted to cut 1,800 police officers. Is this the right time to be doing that, and will the Prime Minister get a grip in London?
The Prime Minister
The first point I would make is that overall crime is falling; it is falling according to both the British crime survey and the police recorded crime statistics. We are doing a huge amount to help people right across the country, including in London, deal with crime: the publication of crime maps; the introduction of police commissioners; and making sure we have the proper and necessary powers.
Because the hon. Gentleman is a London MP, let me bring him up to date on Operation Target, which is currently running in the Metropolitan police: on average, 1,200 officers are deployed every day; there have been 4,000 different activities and 2,000 arrests; and it is early days, but there has been a drop in offences from week to week for the most serious offences such as violence with injury, knife crime, street robbery and residential burglary. [Interruption.] The fact is that Opposition Members do not like to hear an answer when it shows the police are doing their job.
Mr Speaker
Order. Prime Minister’s questions is principally for Back Benchers. I call Mr Graham Evans.
Graham Evans (Weaver Vale) (Con)
On 8 June 1944, a relative of mine, Sergeant Jack Chadwick, was shot down while dropping much-needed supplies to the French resistance. Today he lies in a Normandy churchyard, together with the seven-man crew of his Halifax bomber. Does my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister agree that it is right and proper that this nation should remember the sacrifice of the 55,000 members of Bomber Command who gave their lives to rid Europe of Nazi tyranny?
The Prime Minister
I think it is absolutely right that we remember those who served in Bomber Command. I recognise that a lot of work is going on to make sure that that is done, and that work has my support. As someone who recently visited one of the Commonwealth war graves cemeteries in Normandy, let me also say that it is brilliant that their upkeep is so good, and that such a huge amount of work goes into making sure that relatives can visit and see their fallen heroes.
Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Under the last Labour Government, millions of pensioners in this country, including my grandmother, who is in the Gallery today, saw their quality of life improve vastly with measures such as the winter fuel allowance, pension credits and free bus passes. What message does the Prime Minister have for those women who now see their daughters having to work harder and longer for less money? Some will have less time to prepare for a later state pension.
The Prime Minister
What I would say to the hon. Lady’s constituents—indeed, I would say it to all pensioners—is that this Government are reforming pensions so that we can pay a more generous state retirement pension. Because of the triple lock, someone retiring today will be £15,000 better off over the rest of their life than they would have been under the plans that we inherited. Linked into that, we have kept the free bus pass, the free television licence and the other free pensioner benefits. I believe that we are doing fair by Britain’s pensioners.
Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con)
The Prime Minister alluded earlier to the contract between taxpayers and public servants, but there is also a contract between taxpayers and MPs. Does he agree that MPs should be in the vanguard of reforming pensions by reforming our own, so that we can look our public sector constituents in the face?
The Prime Minister
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. Members of the House are public sector workers too, and we should be subject to exactly the same changes that we are asking others to take on. Therefore, the increase in contributions should apply to the MP system, even though we already pay in quite a lot. We are saying that right across the board, the increase in pension contributions is right to create a healthier long-term system.
Mr Speaker
Order. I appeal to hon. and right hon. Members who are leaving the Chamber to do so quickly and quietly, so that we can hear the statement by the Foreign Secretary.
Petition
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
I have the honour to present, on behalf of the Slough Sikh Education Trust and members of the Sikh community in Slough and south Buckinghamshire, a petition in support of Khalsa secondary school in Slough. This afternoon, together with officers of the trust, I presented a petition in similar terms, with 1,500 signatures, to the office of the Prime Minister. I am trying to speak slowly so that the Secretary of State for Education will hear me, because the promoters of the petition tell me that he gave a pledge that he would help them to ensure the building of the school, if it was the only site they could find. That is indeed the case, and that is what the petition deals with.
The petition states:
The Humble Petition of the Slough Sikh Education Trust and members of the Sikh community within Slough and South Buckinghamshire.
Sheweth that the application of the Slough Sikh Education Trust to build and open a new Sikh Secondary Faith School, Khalsa Academy, in September 2012, was submitted in June 2011; that the Academy is to be sited next to the existing successful Sikh primary school; and that the trustees have, over the past year, exhausted all other feasible site options in the Slough area.
I must say that I know that, because I have been helping them. The petition continues:
Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your honourable House urges the Government to approve the application of the Slough Sikh Education Trust to build and open the Khalsa Academy in September 2012; and to support their endeavours to build the school on land near the existing Sikh Primary School.
And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray &c.
[P000933]
Africa and the Middle East
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)
With permission, I will make a statement on north Africa and the middle east, on which I have undertaken to keep the House regularly updated.
Our country has a compelling interest in seeing the nations of the wider middle east move towards more open societies, political systems and economies. We cannot dictate change in the region, but we can use our membership of the UN Security Council, NATO and the EU, and our close links in the region, to encourage reform, and we can stand up against repression and violence, which we have seen taken to extremes in Libya and Syria.
Britain continues to play its full part in implementing the no-fly zone over Libya, and the measures called for in UN Security Council resolutions 1970 and 1973 to protect civilians. Our actions continue to save lives. NATO strikes have prevented Benghazi from falling, reduced pressure on Misrata, and enabled the delivery of humanitarian aid and the evacuation of thousands of wounded people.
More than 13,000 sorties have been carried out since 31 March, including nearly 5,000 strike sorties. In June alone, 131 military facilities and 343 tanks and vehicles have been hit. I hope the House will join me, as ever, in paying tribute to the men and women of our armed forces who are carrying out that vital work. We can and we will sustain those operations for as long as necessary, until the regime ceases attacks on its own people and complies with the UN resolutions. As my right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary has said, we have the military capability, political resolve and legal authority to see through what we have started.
Support for the regime within Libya is being eroded as we and our allies intensify the military, political and diplomatic pressure upon it. The EU sanctions on ports in western Libya, which I announced in my last statement, have now been put into effect. I welcome the decision of the International Criminal Court to issue arrest warrants for Gaddafi, his son Saif al-Islam al-Gaddafi, and his intelligence chief, Abdullah al-Senussi. That confirms that there can be no future for the Gaddafi regime leading Libya, and that any of its adherents who do not want to be associated with human rights violations should abandon it, as many former ambassadors, Ministers, military officials and members Gaddafi’s inner circle already have.
In addition to that pressure, we are working with more than 40 states and organisations to support a political transition in Libya through the Libya contact group. That includes the UN, the Arab League and the African Union. At its third meeting in Abu Dhabi on 9 June, Egypt and South Africa were also represented for the first time as observers. The contact group’s work to support an inclusive political transition, as set out in the transitional national council’s road map on Libya, is gathering pace.
UN special envoy al-Khatib is leading the political efforts. I met him last week in Luxembourg, and we hope that in the coming weeks he will engage intensively with all parties. In Abu Dhabi, the contact group agreed to facilitate the start of an inclusive national dialogue in Libya. The TNC has begun to make contacts across Libya in support of that process. In the last week, it received the first $100 million of international funding through the temporary financing mechanism set up by the contact group for vital fuel and salaries. I will attend the next meeting of the contact group in Istanbul next month, which we hope will focus on ensuring that the international community is ready to support the Libyan people in building a peaceful and stable future in post-Gaddafi Libya. It is vital that plans for post-conflict Libya are prepared and, as far as possible, agreed in advance.
An international stabilisation response team from the UK, the US, Turkey, Italy and Denmark visited Libya between 20 May and 9 June to assess stabilisation needs. It has identified a range of areas where Libya will need immediate support, including political settlement, security and justice, basic services, economy and infrastructure. However, this process should, of course, be owned by the Libyan people. The UN has confirmed the importance of early preparations for the post-conflict position and the leading role of the UN. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the Department for International Development and the Ministry of Defence are co-ordinating closely to identify where the UK, in addition to our international partners, can provide key expertise in support of their efforts.
Members on both sides of the House will also be concerned about the grave situation in Syria, which shows no sign of abating. Protests across the country are still being met by unacceptable violence from the regime, and the reports of Syrian troop movements near the Turkish border are of serious concern. President Assad’s speech on 20 June was disappointing in its failure to take any concrete action to stop the violence and change the situation on the ground. It did contain some proposals for reform, including plans for a national dialogue, constitutional reform and new laws on political parties, elections and the media. To be significant, such changes would need to be implemented quickly and fully. The regime needs to show that these pledges are more than tactical calculations designed to buy time and appease the demonstrators, which so far it has not done.
The holding of a public meeting of opposition figures in Damascus on 27 June—the first of its kind in a decade—was a positive step, and I hope that further such meetings can be held. However, without an end to the violence, the release of political prisoners, including those detained in recent demonstrations, and a guarantee of the right to peaceful protest, there can be no credible attempt at national dialogue and the opposition meeting will have been a wasted opportunity. Last week, the EU imposed further sanctions against 11 individuals and entities associated with violent repression against civilians. The draft UN Security Council resolution that Britain has circulated remains on the table. We believe that the Security Council should speak out against repression in Syria, and that President Assad must reform or step aside.
I spoke yesterday to the Turkish Foreign Minister, who briefed me on Turkey’s efforts to persuade President Assad to change course and implement reform. It is important that we use all available channels to convey this message to President Assad. This week, my hon. Friend the Member for Braintree (Mr Newmark) travelled in a private capacity to Syria where he met President Assad. He told him that international pressure on Syria will only increase if it continues on its current path. Given that only a change of course in Syria will bring about an end to the violence, we should welcome contacts that reinforce the need for urgent change. Yesterday, my officials also made clear to the Syrian ambassador our strong concern about allegations that a diplomat at the Syrian embassy has been intimidating Syrians in Britain. Any such activity would amount to a clear breach of acceptable behaviour, and if such claims were substantiated, we would respond swiftly and appropriately.
Elsewhere, there have been positive developments in Jordan, where King Abdullah has pledged to promote political and economic reform. He has set out his vision to develop Jordan’s democracy and engage widely with Jordanian society. We stand ready to use the UK’s bilateral Arab partnership fund to support this process where we can. We also welcome the announcement by the King of Morocco of a new draft constitution on 17 June, which includes a strengthened role for the Prime Minister and Parliament, and greater constitutional protection for human rights and gender equality. There will be a referendum on 1 July and we look forward to parliamentary elections scheduled for October.
I welcome the support expressed in the House on previous occasions for UK leadership on the reform of the European neighbourhood policy and the ambitious international response to the region that we saw at the G8 summit in Deauville. Multilateral development banks, including the World Bank, the African Development Bank and the European Investment Bank, will offer to provide more than $20 billion in support of reform efforts over the next two years. It is crucial that the international response to the Arab spring remains ambitious, generous and bold and includes the real prospect of closer association with the EU, including market access, in response to political and economic reform.
I can also report progress on the Arab partnership since the Prime Minister’s announcement of its expansion to £110 million over four years. In Tunisia, we are supporting steps to improve voter education, freedom of expression and balanced reporting in the run-up to October’s important Constituent Assembly elections. Last week, Tunisia became the first north African state to ratify the Rome statute of the International Criminal Court—a very welcome indication of its commitment to reform—and in Egypt we are working with those running the forthcoming parliamentary elections. We remain concerned, though, that parliamentary elections in September may be too soon to allow a wide range of political parties to mobilise fully.
In comparison with these more encouraging developments, I am deeply concerned by the situation in Bahrain. While every Government has the right and duty to maintain law and order, the suspension and investigation of political parties, the imprisonment of leading moderate politicians, the alleged mistreatment of detainees and the trial of members of the medical profession before tribunals containing a military judge were all damaging to Bahrain and were all steps in the wrong direction. I welcome the King’s announcement of a national dialogue from 1 July and the end of the state of national safety, but we look to Bahrain to match such announcements with concrete actions to address the legitimate aspirations of the Bahraini people and we look to leading figures on both sides in Bahrain to promote successful and peaceful dialogue.
Iran continues to connive in the suppression of legitimate protest in Syria and to suppress protests at home. I therefore welcome the European Council’s decision to sanction three senior commanders of the Islamic revolutionary guards corps. Iran has also been carrying out covert ballistic missile tests and rocket launches, including testing missiles capable of delivering a nuclear payload in contravention of UN resolution 1929 and it has announced that it intends to triple its capacity to produce 20% enriched uranium. These are enrichment levels far greater than is needed for peaceful nuclear energy. We will maintain and continue to increase pressure on Iran to negotiate an agreement on its nuclear programme, building on the strengthening of sanctions I announced to the House earlier this month.
In Yemen, President Saleh’s departure has been followed by greater calm in Sana’a. However I remain concerned about greater instability in Yemen and the possibility of economic collapse and humanitarian crisis. The Government of Yemen must confront these challenges urgently. We encourage all parties, including the President, to engage in political dialogue regarding an orderly transition on the basis of the Gulf Co-operation Council initiative, which remains the most credible plan. We also continue to advise against all travel to Yemen and urge all British nationals to leave the country now, while commercial carriers are still flying.
South Sudan’s independence is now just over a week away, but it is set to take place against a backdrop of conflict and unresolved issues. We welcome the agreement reached on Abyei, which paves the way for a swift withdrawal of Sudanese armed forces from Abyei and for the deployment of Ethiopian peacekeeping troops under a UN mandate. The UN Security Council has moved swiftly to adopt a mandate for this new mission. This is just a first step and we call on the parties to implement their commitments.
The continued violence in southern Kordofan is also deeply troubling, with reports of indiscriminate aerial bombardment by the Sudanese armed forces and of individuals being targeted on the basis of their ethnicity or political affiliation. I call on all parties to agree an immediate cessation of hostilities and to allow immediate access to humanitarian agencies. I welcome the news that a framework agreement was signed last night and I hope that it will soon be followed by a ceasefire. We continue to urge north and south to use the good offices of former President Mbeki to resolve outstanding issues under the comprehensive peace agreement before 9 July. It is particularly important that they agree the sharing of oil revenue and citizenship issues, as well as their border. The African Union-led negotiations, which are funded by the United Kingdom, resume in Addis Ababa on 3 July, and I urge the parties to seize this opportunity to build long-term peace and stability in Sudan.
All these events in the region call for a redoubling of international efforts to support peace, stability and democracy. Nowhere is this need more pressing than in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. There is no alternative to negotiations, recommenced as a matter of urgency, to address the fundamental issues at the heart of a two-state solution. We call on the parties to return to the negotiating table, for no other option will bring lasting peace. We will continue to defend human rights and support political and economic freedom throughout a region undergoing momentous change and experiencing a chain of crises, and we will continue to work closely with our allies in the interests of peace and stability for this region and across the world.
Mr Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
May I begin by expressing my unequivocal condemnation of the attacks on the Inter-Continental hotel in Kabul, reports of which have reached the United Kingdom in recent hours? I am sure that the thoughts of the whole House will be with the families and friends of the victims of this attack, which was clearly designed to take human life and undermine efforts, including those of British service personnel, to build a stable Afghanistan.
I welcome the Foreign Secretary’s remarks on the situation in Sudan, Iran, Yemen, Morocco and Jordan, and, indeed, the broader tenor of his remarks on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
On the mission in Libya, we continue to support the work of our armed forces in upholding UN Security Council resolutions 1970 and 1973 to protect the Libyan people, and I am happy to join the Foreign Secretary in again paying tribute to the brave men and women of our armed forces.
Last week, under pressure from my right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor, the Government revealed that the cost of the mission in Libya had run to £260 million, in contrast to the tens of millions that the Chancellor had previously suggested. Given these escalating costs, can the Foreign Secretary restate the Government’s guarantee that no personnel, equipment or resources will be diverted from the Afghanistan campaign to support the Libyan campaign? Is he able to tell the House what efforts the Government are making to help to spread the financial cost among international partners so that it does not fall exclusively on those most involved in the military side of the campaign to increase pressure on the Gaddafi regime?
I note the Foreign Secretary’s confirmation that the temporary financing mechanism is now operating. Yesterday, however, there were troubling reports on the BBC that a medical crisis was looming in eastern Libya, with hospitals in Benghazi running short of supplies. The transitional national council says that this is a result of serious financial difficulties. Can the Foreign Secretary offer the House any assurances that the temporary financing mechanism will indeed allow resources to travel to where they are needed sufficiently quickly?
The right hon. Gentleman will know that for a number of weeks the Opposition and, indeed, many voices beyond the Opposition, have been raising the question of post-conflict planning, and I therefore listened with care to his statement. Of course, we all hope for a resolution to the conflict soon, and we hope for a post-Gaddafi Libya. As the Foreign Secretary said, this week the International Criminal Court issued a warrant for Gaddafi to be sent to The Hague to be tried for crimes against humanity. But if those wishes were granted tomorrow, it is still unclear, after the Foreign Secretary’s statement today, whether the transitional national council and the international community would be ready. By default, it appears, rather than by design, the Foreign Secretary has, in his own words to this House, ensured that
“Britain is in the lead in post-conflict planning.”—[Official Report, 7 June 2011; Vol. 529, c. 38.]
Yet in written answers to my questions he subsequently admitted that not a single official in the Foreign Office or in the Ministry of Defence’s offices in Whitehall was working full time on post-conflict planning in Libya.
Of course we welcome the work that the Department for International Development is doing to plan on humanitarian issues, but the security and political aspects of post-conflict planning are just as important and are, in fact, a prerequisite for any effective humanitarian response. On Monday, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition asked the Prime Minister specifically about this subject, but received little reassurance. We are now more than 100 days into this conflict, and it is 24 days since the Foreign Secretary said that post-conflict planning was at an “embryonic” stage. Can he tell us, where is the plan? Who is in charge? Is he actually confident that the necessary work is being done?
The events of the past six months in north Africa and the middle east have been a test of every Foreign Ministry around the world. On Libya, while we were critical of the Government’s early errors in getting UK personnel out and making contact with the transitional national council, we have supported the United Nations mission. While some of the attention has now left Egypt, the most populous country going through a process of change, we cannot ignore the fact that the new Egypt’s success or failure will probably be the single most fundamental test of the Arab spring’s long-term impact. The Foreign Secretary will be aware that the Egyptian Finance Ministry now states:
“Tourism collapsed temporarily, banks and the stock market were closed, capital flows reversed rapidly, and the manufacturing, construction, and internal trade suffered…the Egyptian economy will likely contract by 1.4 percent in the second half of the current fiscal year”.
The G8 meeting at Deauville, to which the Foreign Secretary referred, made great play of a promise of $20 billion in support for the transitions in Egypt and Tunisia. Today, the Foreign Secretary was able to say only that those resources would be offered by the multilateral development banks, including the World Bank, the African Development Bank and the European Investment Bank. Will he therefore take this opportunity to be more specific about how much of that $20 billion is new money, and about what proportion is in either grants or loans?
Many hon. Members were disappointed by the right hon. Gentleman’s refusal at an earlier exchange to condemn attempts to re-establish the grand prix in Bahrain while violent suppression was still being threatened in that country, but the decision to allow a member of the Government, the hon. Member for Braintree (Mr Newmark), to undertake a private diplomatic mission to Syria is a source not so much of disappointment as of incredulity.
The job of Government Whips is to enforce collective decision making, not flagrantly disregard it, yet the best explanation that the Foreign Secretary was able to offer today for that curious mission is that the hon. Gentleman travelled to Syria “in a private capacity”. Really? Why did the Foreign Secretary allow a member of the Government, but not a Foreign and Commonwealth Office Minister, in the midst of allegations of intimidation by the Syrian embassy on the streets of Britain and evidence of indiscriminate murder on the streets of Syria, to travel to meet President Assad last weekend? It really does prompt the question: is this Government’s foreign policy being run out of the Foreign Office or out of the Whips Office?
Just after the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary made the case for expanded sanctions on Syria—sanctions which were achieved at the European Council and which the Opposition had called for and welcome—the hon. Member for Braintree was entering into his own three-hour dialogue with President Assad. These are dangerous and delicate days in Syria which demand from the British Government discipline, grip and coherence in policy and in the communication of that policy. This is surely no time for do-it-yourself diplomacy.
To summarise, where we can we will support this Government’s approach to the middle east and north Africa, but the House needs clearer answers on post-conflict planning, a clearer strategy for the whole region and, frankly, clarity on who speaks for the Government in their communications with Syria.
Mr Hague
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for mentioning events in Kabul, which I did not refer to earlier given the focus on the middle east and north Africa. Clearly, however, we are very concerned that British nationals were caught up in the attack on the Inter-Continental hotel, and our consular services have been very busy in Kabul looking after them. I spoke on the telephone this morning to one of the two British nationals involved, and I am pleased to say that they are safe and sound and will return speedily to this country.
The attack is part of a pattern of Taliban activity in Afghanistan—against the momentum that the international security assistance force has gathered—to try to make highly publicised attacks on civilian targets, as well as sometimes on military targets, in Afghanistan. We should not be fooled by that. I saw for myself in Afghanistan last week the progress that we are making on the ground, particularly in Helmand where British troops are so heavily employed, and I am sure that the House will be unified in its concern at that attack, as the right hon. Gentleman reflected.
I am grateful also for the right hon. Gentleman’s continued support, and for the continued widespread support throughout the House, for our implementation of resolutions 1970 and 1973 and for the work of our armed forces in implementing them. He asked about the cost of the campaign, and, in referring yesterday to £260 million, my right hon. Friend the Defence Secretary explained the estimated and expected cost over six months, so not the cost to date.
Those costs and our military activities do not impinge on our work in Afghanistan, as I again saw for myself last week. Clearly, the greater costs of the military campaign fall on those nations that undertake the military activity, and we might all wish that NATO had different financing arrangements, but that is how it works. Nevertheless, many other nations contribute to the cost in other ways, including in humanitarian support, and they will be able to contribute to future stabilisation.
The important thing to bear in mind, and on which I hope there is agreement throughout the House, is that, if we had not acted in Libya but allowed the humanitarian catastrophe that would have resulted from Gaddafi overrunning by force the rest of Libya, and destabilising the neighbouring countries of Egypt and Tunisia in the process, to happen, the costs would have been incalculable to European countries in uncontrolled migration and in new breeding grounds for terrorism and extremism. The cost of the campaign in Libya has to be set against those considerations, and that is a very important point.
The right hon. Gentleman asked whether, if Gaddafi went tomorrow, we would be any further on, and I think that we would be a lot further on than we were a few weeks ago, when I said quite rightly that planning was at an embryonic stage. The stabilisation unit has prepared its report, but it would be quite wrong for the international community to say, “That is what we are going to try to impose on Libya.”
This is not an invasion of Libya; this is about Libyans being able to take responsibility for their own future. That is why I urged the Turkish Foreign Minister in my discussions with him yesterday to ensure that such stabilisation work is discussed at the contact group in Istanbul, and that the national transitional council is able to take it into its planning for the future. It is not something that anybody can sit in an office anywhere in the western world and just decide; it is valuable work that feeds into the planning process for post-conflict stabilisation in Libya, in which we hope that Libyans will take the lead, and of course that the United Nations will take a leading role.
The right hon. Gentleman asked about the involvement of the Foreign Office, but things have changed dramatically in the past year in terms of the work between the Foreign and Commonwealth Office on the one hand and the Department for International Development on the other. On entering office, I was appalled by how poor relations had been between DFID and the FCO, for which he must bear part of the responsibility, having been a Minister in both Departments.
The Secretary of State for International Development and I have taught our Departments that they are each other’s best friend, and we needed to after the activities of the previous Government, so the right hon. Gentleman can be sure that at all levels, whether in Benghazi, in Whitehall, or in the National Security Council where all the work is put together, vast numbers—dozens—of Foreign Office officials are connected with it. His questions on that do not live up to the subject, and they are certainly not commensurate with his rather poor record on those matters.
On Egypt and financing, the situation depends on the demand and readiness of such countries to access the funds. It is mainly financing and loans that are on offer, but they are on offer advantageously, and take-up will depend on the response of countries throughout north Africa to the opportunity. Egypt has not taken up the offer, but it may do so under a future Government, and we hope that it will.
On Syria, I think that the only incredulity is about the nature of the right hon. Gentleman’s questions, because there is no doubt about international unity and support on the matter. Foreign policy is not conducted in a bunker, where we do not communicate with people with whom we disagree. We have diplomatic relations with Syria; I have communicated with the Syrian Foreign Minister; we communicate with the Syrian ambassador all the time; we send messages through the Turkish Foreign Minister and through Arab Foreign Ministers; and we send messages also through people whom President Assad has met frequently before.
That is why it is entirely right and proper for my hon. Friend the Member for Braintree to have visited President Assad and communicated messages in accordance with the views of the international community. It seems to be only the right hon. Gentleman who thinks that we should not communicate such messages through every available channel.
With the exception of a couple of areas that I thought were rather petty, trivial and incredulous, I welcome as usual the generous cross-party spirit of the right hon. Gentleman’s questions and our continued unity on the importance of these subjects.
Sir Menzies Campbell (North East Fife) (LD)
However welcome it may be that the International Criminal Court has issued those warrants, is not it the case that on a realistic assessment we can hardly be wholly confident that Colonel Gaddafi will ever face the Court? Does my right hon. Friend agree, however, that the significance of issuing the warrants is as much political as legal, in that it demonstrates a unified international response to the barbarism of Colonel Gaddafi and those about him?
Mr Hague
My right hon. and learned Friend is right: it is a legal process, but it is of political importance. It is a political statement by the world that the behaviour of the Gaddafi regime is unacceptable and that it should be accountable for that behaviour. It sends, as I have said, a clear message to adherents of the regime that there is every risk of being held accountable. We cannot provide certainty, but these warrants show an ever-increasing risk to supporters of the regime of facing that accountability, so more of them should take the opportunity to leave it.
Mr Bob Ainsworth (Coventry North East) (Lab)
The different reaction to the Arab spring, and to Libya in particular, by NATO countries and—on occasion—the complete contradiction of their policies surely suggests the need for a post-mortem on the Libyan situation. Is thought being given to starting some analysis of why NATO countries have reacted so differently and not in any kind of co-ordinated way to this problem?
Mr Hague
While, of course, we will want to analyse the campaign when it is over, the right hon. Gentleman has referred to a post-mortem when the campaign is very much alive. Therefore we should not be diverted at the moment. I would not go as far as him, because he is in danger of exaggerating when he says that there has been no kind of co-ordination. NATO got things together and took over the campaign much more rapidly than was the case in previous campaigns. Eighteen nations are involved in the military action and 34 nations are involved in supporting those efforts—the NATO nations and six Arab nations. He is right to draw attention to the fact that some NATO nations have taken part in the military aspects of the campaign and others have not. They are sovereign nations and can make those decisions, but the political unity of NATO is clear, as demonstrated by the renewal, for 90 days from 27 June, of the mandate for NATO, which was agreed unanimously. While it might be desirable for even more of the NATO nations to make a military contribution—and that continues to be desirable—and we should analyse these things afterwards, we should not say that there is no co-ordination, when there is a great deal.
Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)
I welcome the Foreign Secretary’s assessment that the regime in Libya is being eroded, and I welcome the arrest warrants issued by the International Criminal Court, but what does he say to those who feel that the warrants are counter-productive, in that they make it more difficult for Colonel Gaddafi to make an exit, given that he knows that he will probably face arrest?
Mr Hague
If we accepted that argument, we would not have the ICC or have embarked on this in the first place. It can be argued that there is a downside to the warrants, in that a negotiated outcome to different conflicts at different times can be made more difficult by such a legal process. On the other hand, the existence of such a process, which we have seen come to fruition in many cases in the past decade, is a stark reminder to tyrants and generals who get out of control, and to people who belong to regimes that commit crimes against humanity, that the international process poses a serious risk that they will not be able to escape. The deterrent effect on regimes such as that in Libya therefore has to be set against the downside to which my hon. Friend has drawn attention. If we believe in the ICC, as we do in the United Kingdom—we have subscribed to it and passed an Act of Parliament to bring about our participation in it—we must stand by its decisions and support the efforts to bring people to justice within its ambit.
Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)
Will the Foreign Secretary protest in the strongest terms to the Israeli Government about the attack by Israeli troops on a group of children on the west bank with tear gas and stun grenades, when they were not involved in any kind of political activity but were having a rare day of organised entertainment and fun? As even the Jewish Chronicle now compares Netanyahu with Ceausescu, when will we take action to deal with these thugs?
Mr Hague
As ever, we call on the Israeli authorities, like any other authorities in the region, to deal proportionately and with only necessary force with any disturbances that may arise. I will look at the instance that the right hon. Gentleman has described and see what representations we should make to the Israeli Government about it. He has heard me many times call for a proportionate response and for the right to peaceful protest. That applies in Israel and the occupied territories just as it should apply elsewhere in the region.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
I welcome the fact that Colonel Gaddafi, his son and his chief of intelligence have been indicted by the ICC. Speaking as someone who has given evidence in five trials in The Hague, I wonder whether my right hon. Friend might be able to say how the Government could help in the arrest and extradition of those three people in practical terms. I understand that it is very difficult.
Mr Hague
My hon. Friend draws attention to the point that I made earlier: the ICC has proved that it functions—people are hauled before it and there are consequences for crimes against humanity and other very serious, internationally recognised offences. How we can assist will, of course, depend on the situation in post-conflict Libya, but we will certainly stand by the activities of the ICC and will want to see its proceedings upheld.
Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)
On the question of Syria, last week I raised with the Leader of the House the incident that the Foreign Secretary has mentioned concerning the intimidation of and threats against young Syrian activists in this country and their families at home in Syria. Will the Foreign Secretary enlarge on the conversation that he had with the Syrian ambassador? Did the ambassador admit to any of the suggestions that the Syrian embassy was complicit in such intimidation?
Mr Hague
I can tell the right hon. Lady only a little more. My officials have had that conversation with the Syrian ambassador, who did not admit to any of those activities. I can only repeat what I said in my statement: if these accusations of intimidation can be substantiated—they have not been so far, from what we can tell—appropriate action will be taken by the Government.
Mr James Clappison (Hertsmere) (Con)
All parties could do more to bring about a peaceful settlement between Israel and the Palestinians, but does my right hon. Friend agree that it is deeply unrealistic to expect any Israeli Government, of whatever character, to sit down and negotiate in any way or in any forum with Hamas, an organisation which refuses to recognise Israel or to abide by existing agreements, and is causing or permitting the firing of ever deadlier rockets further and further into Israeli territory—not tear gas, but rockets? Can we have more of a focus on clearing away that fundamental obstacle to peace?
Mr Hague
My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to Hamas, which remains a proscribed organisation. I take this opportunity to call again for the release of Gilad Shalit, which, if it were to happen, would certainly advance the interests of peace in the region. We are not calling on Israel to negotiate with Hamas, but we look to the new Palestinian Authority, which is still being constructed after the new agreement between Fatah and Hamas, to negotiate for a two-state solution, to believe in a peaceful negotiated settlement and to recognise the previous agreements entered into by the Palestine Liberation Organisation. If the Palestinian Authority does that, Israel should be prepared to negotiate with them.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
The Foreign Secretary rightly talked about the need for participation by all sides to bring about a resolution of the conflict between Palestine and Israel. In that context, does he think it important to meet representatives of Palestinian opinion who live within the post-1948 borders of Israel, including Raed Salah? Why has Raed Salah been banned from this country, having been here for four days already and being due to speak at a meeting this evening in the House of Commons to help the process of dialogue between Palestinians and others to bring about a peaceful solution?
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
Does the Foreign Secretary agree that his efforts abroad are undermined when we allow racist, homophobic extremists such as Raed Salah to come into the country and stir up hatred? What we need is peace across Europe and the rest of the middle east.
Mr Geoffrey Robinson (Coventry North West) (Lab)
When the Foreign Secretary replied to my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander) on the attack on the Inter-Continental hotel in Kabul, he said that he was doing everything possible to safeguard the interests of British citizens who were caught up in the attack. He also said that we are making some progress in the military fight against the Taliban. Does he agree, however, that the continuation of such incidents, which are perpetrated almost at will by the Taliban, shows that only a political solution can resolve the crisis? We understand that contacts are under way with the Taliban. Will he tell us something about them and assure us that the British Government will give their full support to progressing them?
Mr Hague
Yes, we are fully in favour of political reconciliation in Afghanistan. I am trying not to say too much about this, as this is a statement on north Africa and the middle east. We will, no doubt, return to Afghanistan on other occasions. Yes, we believe in a political settlement and in a political surge, as Secretary Clinton put it, as well as a military surge in Afghanistan. It is important that we do not jump to the conclusion that the attack on the Inter-Continental hotel shows that what we are doing in Afghanistan is not working; it is designed to give us that impression, and we should not fall for that. It is a terrorist tactic designed to induce that state of mind in western capitals. In reality, a huge amount is being achieved, and we should remember that.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
In what appears to be the most protracted assassination attempt in history, does the Foreign Secretary believe that the targeting of Gaddafi’s Winnebago and family homes continues to fall within the remit of UN resolution 1973, and if so why?
Mr Hague
I disagree with my hon. Friend’s view of the Libya campaign. He must remember that what we are doing has probably saved thousands of lives in Benghazi and Misrata. To characterise the campaign as an assassination campaign is wrong. The Defence Secretary and I have made clear our position on targeting—we do not go into the details of targets. Our targeting depends on the behaviour of those involved, and it has included the command systems of the Gaddafi regime. In my hon. Friend’s description, I do not recognise the actual NATO campaign.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
Earlier today, Palestine solidarity groups, politicians, teachers and others marked the anniversary of the attacks on the Free Gaza flotilla last year by sailing down the river outside Parliament and marking the launch of a new Free Gaza flotilla. As the Foreign Secretary has previously said that the situation in Gaza is unacceptable and unsustainable, will he tell us what further action he is taking to help get the siege lifted, and will he do everything that he can to get guarantees that this new flotilla will be safe from attack?
Mr Hague
We have continued to take the action that I set out in the House last year. We have urged Israel greatly to improve access to Gaza. It has taken some steps, but those steps have not been as fruitful as we had hoped when they were set out. Egypt has now opened an important crossing into Gaza, which may also provide some relief. The answer relies on the general lifting of a blockade of Gaza and on a negotiated two-state solution in the middle east. However, embarking on new flotillas is not the way in which to bring that about. We advise against all travel to Gaza by British nationals, which includes people who may be thinking of boarding a flotilla to go there. We hope that Israel will make only a proportionate response to any such flotilla, but it is, none the less, not the way in which to sort out the problems of the middle east. Such problems require negotiations in good faith by the parties concerned.
Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)
I strongly welcome the Foreign Secretary’s remarks about Israel and Palestine, especially his encouragement to Israel to be open to negotiations on a united Palestinian Authority, if it is freely elected by the Palestinian people. Does he believe that both parties could learn from our own example in Northern Ireland by dropping other unhelpful preconditions to talks, such as those that relate to Jerusalem on the one side or the extent of variations to the 1967 border on the other?
Mr Hague
I will go a long way with my hon. Friend on this. We want a return to negotiations; that is absolutely right. I have set out the conditions under which Israel should resume its negotiations with the Palestinian Authority, which are the same conditions in relation to the PA. We need the negotiations to succeed so we should not be setting new hurdles. Comparisons with negotiations elsewhere, including those in Northern Ireland, are fraught with difficulty. The situations are not exactly the same and have not reached the point at which negotiations really started to bear fruit in Northern Ireland. A lot of painstaking work still has to be done on this, but it would be a good start, after President Obama’s speech and his statement on the 1967 borders, for both the Israelis and the Palestinians to make it clear that they are happy to return to direct negotiations with each other.
Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)
There is great concern about the use of rape as a weapon of war by Gaddafi’s army. Will the Foreign Secretary tell the House what specific actions the UK Government are taking to protect women and girls against such appalling attacks?
Mr Hague
Almost everything that we do in Libya is designed to protect civilians from the entire range of horrendous attacks, including of the type that the hon. Lady has described. There is also the indiscriminate bombardment by artillery and the attacks on built-up areas, such as those we have seen in Misrata. The work that our armed forces do to prevent attacks and the harassment of civilians under UN resolution 1973 is important. None the less, it does not include putting troops on the ground and invading Libya to separate those forces. That would not be within the UN resolution, and that is not what we will do. We will continue to use air strikes to try to separate Gaddafi’s forces from those vulnerable people, and we have had a lot of success in doing just that.
Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)
I welcome the statement, which illustrates what a volatile and unpredictable period of change the middle east is now experiencing. Will my right hon. Friend join me in condemning the recruitment of women and children by Gaddafi to be trained to fire AK47s and rocket-propelled grenades? Is such training not a sign of a desperate regime?
Mr Hague
It is another sign of a desperate regime. It adds to the tactics which were described by the hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Rushanara Ali), and the recruitment of mercenaries by the Gaddafi regime to prosecute a war against their own people. Many of Libya’s own soldiers and officers are unwilling to fight. Certainly, it is a desperate regime, and we must continue to turn up the pressure on it to implement the UN resolutions.
Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
The statement has covered a vast range of important issues. May I ask about one specific matter? The Secretary of State will be aware that the Republic of Somaliland is a beacon of democracy in the horn of Africa in stark contrast with Somalia in the south. Somaliland has offered us help in the form of access to the port of Berbera and stands firm against both pirates and terrorists. Will the Secretary of State assure us that he is treating Somaliland as an ally, the stability and success of which is important to us and to the whole region?
Mr Hague
The right hon. Gentleman has made an important point. We have stepped up our diplomatic contacts with Somaliland. None the less, we must not let that distract us from our efforts and those of other African nations to create greater stability in Somalia overall or threaten the future territorial integrity of Somalia. We are doing what he has described and ensuring that we work with the authorities there, and we will increase the emphasis that we place on that.
Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)
Egypt is clearly far more important to regional stability than Tunisia, but it is a place where, because of its scale, British influence is likely to be quite limited. Tunisia, however, is a place where, with some focus and resources, we could make a symbolic and sustainable difference. Will the Foreign Secretary please explain the principles on which our priorities are determined and our resources allocated between the two?
Mr Hague
That is a legitimate question, to which there is no fixed or dogmatic answer. The future of both countries in the light of the Arab spring will be important, and my hon. Friend is right to imply that Tunisia, a much smaller country than Egypt, might find many of the necessary reforms easier to accomplish—certainly, one gets that feeling on visiting Tunisia. So far, Tunisia’s progress towards elections for its constituent assembly and so on have been more pain-free. Nevertheless, in assessing priorities, given the scale of Egypt’s population and influence in the Arab world, and its absolutely vital strategic position in the middle east, we must devote a great deal of our attention and support to Egypt. There is no escape from doing that. Success in the Arab spring—open political institutions and an open economy in Tunisia, but failure in Egypt—would still be a massive failure overall, so we must devote a large proportion of our time and resources to Egypt.
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)
On the proposed flotilla, what active steps is the Foreign Secretary taking to persuade its organisers both here and abroad that it would be a provocative act that would do nothing to promote greater peace and stability in the region?
Mr Hague
I have just taken the active step of speaking about this here in the House of Commons. Although all Members of Parliament are well aware that speaking in the House of Commons can be a secret activity at times, I hope that this message, which we will be happy to amplify and repeat, will be understood by anyone who contemplates going into that situation. We advise against all travel to Gaza and embarkation on such flotillas is not the way to try to resolve these conflicts.
Mr Speaker
Statements by the Foreign Secretary are not a secret; they are discussed in every pub in the land every day.
Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
I commend my right hon. Friend’s determination to see through the NATO campaign to a positive conclusion, but when did the Government first realise that the campaign might take 100 days, six months or even longer? May I advise him that, having produced a report on strategic thinking in government, which the director of the Royal United Services Institute this morning described as a landmark report, the Public Administration Committee will return to the subject of how such decisions and assessments are made on a cross-departmental basis, which, as he rightly claims, he has much improved under this Government?
Mr Hague
I am grateful to my hon. Friend and look forward to the Public Administration Committee’s further consideration of the development of strategic thinking in government. To answer his question on the length of time, there is no fixed answer and no soothsayer would be able to divine how short or how long the Libya campaign might be. Of course, it is still not possible to say that, and we have never said that it would be possible to say that. Actually, even 1,000 boffins in a think-tank, all working together feverishly with all the information available to them, would still not have known how long the Libya campaign might last. We will continue to work with my hon. Friend on improving the Government’s strategic thinking, but however much we improve it, it will not be possible to say how long each military campaign will take.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
Along with much else in the statement, I welcome the urgent attention that the Foreign Secretary is giving to events in Sudan. May I join him in welcoming the ICC’s warrant for the arrest of Gaddafi for his crimes, but should those who provided him with the infrastructure of repression and the weaponry for civilian slaughter not also be deemed complicit in the scale of his crimes?
Mr Hague
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for those words. We will need to reflect on those things over time and learn lessons from them in the future, but let us remember that the ICC is dealing with the people most directly culpable for crimes against humanity. It is important that its work is concentrated on those individuals, but there will certainly be wider lessons to learn.
Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con)
Is there a danger that Colonel Gaddafi misreads recent statements by Amr Moussa, the outgoing secretary-general of the Arab League and current presidential candidate in Egypt, in which he has called for a ceasefire and the commencement of peace talks while the existing Libyan leader is in place, and therefore underestimates the unity of purpose in the international community in enforcing the UN resolutions?
Mr Hague
I hope that any such danger will be removed by the continued meetings of the contact group, on which the Arab League is represented and at which international unity is strengthening, not weakening. The contact group meeting in Abu Dhabi was attended by seven additional nations, as well as by organisations such as the Organisation of the Islamic Conference and the Arab League. I am sure that the meeting in Istanbul in two weeks’ time will also be well attended and very united, so if Gaddafi is under any misapprehension about the unity of the international community, he will find that that is rapidly removed.
Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)
I support our actions in Libya, but there is often a great deal of cynicism about the motivations of western nations in getting involved in such conflicts. What can the Foreign Secretary tell us about the criteria that the Government will apply to interventions in possible future conflicts, so that our constituents and, indeed, foreign nations appreciate that we will apply a consistent approach to these matters?
Mr Hague
The hon. Gentleman is right that, after events over the past decade, there is a good deal of cynicism about these things. We must clearly explain the humanitarian motives, as well as our national interest, that have involved us in Libya, and give the full background. He has asked about criteria. I have often referred in the House to one of the important criteria: in the case of Libya, we are acting with full, legal, moral and international authority. We are acting within United Nations resolutions, and there is no doubt about the legal position. There will be other situations in which people call for interventions of various kinds, but on which there is no legal authority, because the UN Security Council does not agree to act. In many of those instances, we will have to say that we can do nothing, because we do not have the legal or international authority to act. International law is our starting point, which must remain a key principle in the years ahead.
Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that, despite a generation of occupation by Syria and series of bloody incursions by Israel, Lebanon remains a potential force for good, with its developed civic society and its entrepreneurial spirit? Does he further agree that one of the best ways to break the ambitions of the Tehran-Damascus axis is by fostering and encouraging democratic elements in Lebanon and weaning them away from Hezbollah and the Damascus agenda?
Mr Hague
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to draw attention to Lebanon’s key role in the region. It is, of course, a tragedy that so much of its potential has not been fulfilled in recent years, often because of its neighbours’ policies, and he is right to draw attention to that. We certainly strongly support those people who are working to strengthen democracy in Lebanon. One of the things that that requires is the completion of the work of the Special Tribunal for Lebanon, which the United Kingdom continues to fund.
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
My constituents and I are concerned about the degree of mission creep that has occurred in Libya. The mission has continued for longer, has cost more and has involved more people dying than most of us expected at the beginning. Yet, because we are in the air, we cannot intervene on the ground to help women who are victims of rape used as a weapon of war. The right hon. Gentleman said in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Coventry North West (Mr Robinson) that there would be an analysis at the end of the mission. Will that analysis consider ways of preventing such situations from arising in future and non-military means by which we can protect civilian populations from despots?
Mr Hague
It is important to stress that we have used non-military means as well. The UK has funded ships that have evacuated about 5,000 people from Misrata—that shows the support that the UK Government have given—thus taking them out of a danger zone. We have not only been engaged in military action in Libya, but had we not taken military action when we did, many thousands more people would have died in Benghazi and probably in Misrata afterwards. We are constrained by the UN resolutions, which relates to the point that I made to the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) that we must stay within the legal limits of what is set out in the UN resolution. We cannot do everything that we might want to do to assist people, but I stress to the hon. Lady that there is a good deal of non-military help, as well as our military action.
Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)
I welcome my right hon. Friend’s remarks, particularly concerning Iran and its nuclear ambitions. What further actions or sanctions can he take to prevent Iran from developing a nuclear weapons programme, which would undoubtedly lead to greater instability in the middle east, and potentially to conflict?
Mr Hague
No one can be sure whether sanctions will of themselves prevent a nuclear programme, but last year, as we announced a succession of sanctions, the readiness of the regime in Tehran to negotiate increased, at least for a time. The regime will have to reckon on the fact that pressure from sanctions will intensify over the coming months unless it is prepared to negotiate about its nuclear programme.
All that I can say to my hon. Friend for the moment is that we agreed in the EU last month the designation of 100 more individuals and entities, which will intensify the sanctions. I have referred today to additional sanctions on the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps commanders. We will continue to step up that pressure, but it will be peaceful and legitimate pressure.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
Colonel Gaddafi intends to fight to the death, and the Libyan people are sick to death of killing each other. In accordance with resolution 1973, will the Secretary of State at least consider a ceasefire during which an election can occur, internationally supervised by the Arab League, with a fall-back position of resumed conflict if intimidation and violence corrupt the outcome, in order to get an elected Government in Libya instead of another unelected regime, with hundreds of thousands more people being killed in the meantime?
Mr Hague
There are several complications to the hon. Gentleman’s proposals. One is that a ceasefire has always been possible, if the regime meets the terms of the UN resolution and stops attacks on the civilian population in Libya. It has been open to the regime for more than 40 years to have elections to determine who is in charge in Libya. Constructing an environment in which going back to armed conflict is a fall-back position would make it rather difficult for the electoral process to take place. It remains the case that for a political process to succeed in Libya, Colonel Gaddafi must leave power. That is how all the Libyans I saw in Benghazi regard the matter, and how the rest of the world regards it.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
I warmly welcome the Foreign Secretary’s wise words to the organisers of the proposed flotilla. At a time when the flow of humanitarian aid has increased, yet terrorist attacks on Israel by Hamas have also increased, the flotilla would be a terrible provocation to the state of Israel. A confrontation would certainly take place and talks would be postponed almost indefinitely. I urge my right hon. Friend to approach the organisers of the flotilla directly to make them stop.
Mr Hague
As I said earlier, I will make sure that our views are clear to all involved. Provocations are not what we need in the middle east at the moment; equally, disproportionate responses to provocations are not what we need, either. We ask all concerned to respect those considerations. Our views will be made clear to all concerned.
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
Since the original vote in the House on the mission in Libya, it is clear that the objectives have been updated to include regime change. Is it not time that we had a second debate and Division, so that those of us who have concerns about what is happening can place them on the record?
Mr Hague
I do not sense that that is the general view in the House. Our military mission in Libya continues to be defined by the UN resolutions. If we were not undertaking any and all of the military actions that we are, Colonel Gaddafi would be able to intensify his campaign of killing and harassing the population of Libya. It is entirely in accordance with the vote of this House in March and with UN Security Council resolution 1973 that we are doing what we are doing in Libya. I do not therefore consider that it requires a fresh vote in the House.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
I welcome the Foreign Secretary’s statement. In light of the thousands of lives that have been lost in Syria, the French Foreign Minister has stated that President Assad’s position has become illegitimate. How far are we from reaching the same decision?
Mr Hague
President Assad must reform or step aside. If we are to maintain international unity of pressure on Syria, we must be careful in how we phrase such things. That is the right position for the United Kingdom to take, particularly as a Security Council resolution is still on the table, which we would like to push forward if the situation in Syria continues to be so dire. I am confident that we have taken the right position.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
We all want a negotiated settlement to the middle east conflict, but given that Hamas continues to attack Israel and to manipulate and undermine any direct negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, what more can we do with our international partners to ensure that Hamas accepts the Quartet principles and comes to the negotiating table?
Mr Hague
We stand firm with the Quartet. I made it clear in my earlier remarks what we expect of the Palestinian Authority. We look to the newly formed Palestinian Authority, when it emerges, to live up to the principles that I stated in answer to earlier questions. In the meantime, by failing to accept or even move towards the Quartet principles, Hamas remains a proscribed organisation that damages prospects of peace in the middle east rather than advancing them.
Message from the Queen
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Points of Order
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George Young)
On a point of order, last Thursday at business questions, I announced to the House that the first business tomorrow, Thursday 30 June, would be consideration of a motion for a resolution on which a Bill is to be brought in. Following what you have just said, Mr Speaker, I inform the House that hon. Members will have the opportunity to debate Her Majesty’s Gracious Message at tomorrow’s business.
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the Leader of the House for what he has said, which will have been heard by colleagues.
Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. On Monday, the case of Raed Salah was brought up in the House. Yesterday, I brought it up as a point of order and, indeed, there have been questions about it in the House today. Whatever the rights and wrongs, the man was said by the media to have been excluded, and we find today that he had been excluded, but none the less came into the country—apparently almost strolling through.
Yesterday, I asked for a statement from the Home Secretary to allow hon. Members to question her about what was happening in the case. We now find through a press release on the Home Office website that, although the Home Secretary does not normally comment on individual cases, she has done so in this case. She confirms that Raed Salah was excluded but that he managed to enter the UK. He has now been detained, and the UK Border Agency is making arrangements to remove him. She announced through the press release that a full investigation is taking place into how he was able to enter.
I do not know whether you have had any message from the Home Secretary, Mr Speaker, but instead of announcing through a press release that a full investigation will take place into the matter, she should have come to the House to make a statement so that hon. Members of all parties could question her about the rights and wrongs of the case and what actually happened. Have you had any indication from the Home Secretary of whether she intends to come to the House, or to continue to make announcements through the press?
Mr Speaker
Before I respond to the point of order, I shall take that of the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn).
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Raed Salah entered this country four days ago without any problem. He has been here for four days and he spoke at a public meeting in Conway hall on Monday evening, which was apparently attended by immigration officers who did not recognise him even though he spoke from the platform. I also understand that he met Members yesterday and briefed them on the situation. This man is an Israeli citizen, who has no restrictions on his life or activities in Israel. Indeed, he addressed a public meeting at Tel Aviv university only last week. Following complaints in the Daily Mail, the Home Office seems latterly to have decided that there was a travel ban on him, even though it did not confirm that on Monday or on any other occasion, but announced it on a website a couple of hours ago, following media inquiries.
Is that a satisfactory way for the Home Secretary to behave? She seems more interested in responding to the Daily Mail than to the House, and incapable of coming here to make a statement or, indeed, answering telephone calls from Members who were trying to ascertain Mr Salah’s exact status this morning. He was due here this evening to address a meeting upstairs in one of the Committee Rooms to promote dialogue and peace to bring about a resolution of the middle east conflict. Surely the House deserves a statement on the matter at the very least.
Mr Speaker
I shall take a further point of order on the subject and then respond to them all.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. If the Home Secretary is to come here to make a statement, could we find out whether the ability of the racist and homophobic individual whom we are discussing to enter the UK was in any way aided by the fact that he was apparently getting a warm welcome from some Labour Members?
Mr Speaker
I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not take it amiss if I say that that last series of observations represented not a point of order, but a point of frustration, propaganda or an expression of views. Anyway, he has said his piece, and we are grateful to him.
Let me try to respond to the two points of order that were raised from the Opposition side. The Home Secretary informed me late last night that Sheikh Raed Salah had been arrested with a view to deportation on the ground that his presence is not conducive to the public good. Accordingly, I instructed the Serjeant at Arms that he should not be admitted to the parliamentary estate. I know that Members will not expect me to discuss issues of security and access any further on the Floor of the House—I will not do that.
However, in response to the hon. Members for Gedling (Vernon Coaker) and for Islington North let me say that if the Home Secretary wishes to make an oral statement to the House, she is perfectly at liberty to do so. That is a choice for her, and she will have heard the points that have been made.
Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The media were briefed this morning that the Deputy Prime Minister was announcing to a conference in Birmingham a significant policy change on business rates in local councils. Mr Speaker, you have said that the Government should explain and answer first to Parliament, so can you tell us whether the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government intends to come to the House to do just that on a major policy change on local government finance?
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her point of order and for giving me notice that she intended to raise it. However, I have not been informed of any ministerial statement today on the matter. Perhaps it is worth emphasising that if a new policy or a change in existing policy is to be announced, one would ordinarily hope that the House would hear it first. I am not familiar with the detail of that particular matter, and therefore I cannot say whether it should so qualify, but the general requirement is very clear. The Deputy Prime Minister will be aware of it and the Leader of the House has regularly heard it and communicated it to ministerial colleagues. I am sure that the hon. Lady will find other ways in which to pursue the matter.
Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Members of the Cabinet are developing a track record for making statements to the press in the morning, with a Minister coming to the House in the afternoon. I drew your attention to the press conference that the Prime Minister held about the national health service before the statement in the House. Last week, before the Lord Chancellor’s statement about changes in sentencing and other matters, the Prime Minister again held a press conference before the House met and told the public what the Secretary of State later told the House of Commons. My hon. Friends on the Front Bench have provided two further examples. Is it not intolerable that the Prime Minister and the Government show continuous contempt for the House of Commons?
Mr Speaker
The right hon. Gentleman is a very experienced Member. I think that I am right in saying that it is 41 years 11 days since he was elected to the House. He has seen a lot. He will understand that the Chair must consider those matters on a case-by-case basis in that some cases are egregious and others are not. I recall the right hon. Gentleman’s previous point of order. He might recall—if not, I shall tell him—my response to the shadow Leader of the House last week. I said that statements should be made first to the House and that I was perturbed by a growing practice of a written ministerial statement followed by a press conference, and, only after that, an oral statement to the House. I hoped that that practice would be nipped in the bud. On that occasion, I also made the point, the significance of which will not escape the right hon. Gentleman or the House, that if that unfortunate and inappropriate practice persisted, there would be mechanisms available to Members who wished to allocate a considerable amount of parliamentary time on a particular day to the study of the matter of urgency, and that that would cause all sorts of problems with programming Government business, which I know the Leader of the House would not want to encounter. I hope that that is clear to the right hon. Gentleman and the House.
Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Last year, the Government announced the termination of the housing market renewal programme, depriving depressed communities of hope for the future. Here and subsequently in another place, Ministers said that application can be made to the regional growth fund. However, only this week, the chair of the independent evaluation panel, Lord Heseltine said:
“There is no way in which we are doing housing renewal”
or anything of that sort. We are 48 hours away from the deadline for regional growth fund bids. Has the Minister for Housing and Local Government indicated his intention to come to the House and clear up the confusion?
Mr Speaker
The short answer to the hon. Gentleman is that the Minister has not indicated to me any intention to make a statement on the matter. However, until a very few moments ago, the Leader of the House was in his place, and will have heard the start of the point of order. I imagine that the Deputy Leader of the House will communicate the rest of it to him. My advice to the hon. Gentleman, in view of the pressing timetable, is that he might wish to raise the matter at business questions, if he can catch my eye, and secure some sort of clarificatory response from the Leader of the House. He has to wait fewer than 24 hours for his opportunity.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I recently became aware that recently the Liberal Democrats, on a day when they should have been in Parliament representing their constituents, decided to have an away-day in my constituency, and stayed there overnight; I certainly commend them for their taste. I cannot claim to be the most assiduous in this regard myself because I have occasionally forgotten to inform a colleague that I have been in their constituency, but it is, I am sure you would agree, rare that 50 MPs would forget to inform a colleague that they were engaging in political activity in somebody else’s constituency. Could you give any guidance as to what is expected of hon. Members when visiting other people’s constituencies?
Mr Speaker
I think it was what would be characterised by the party concerned as an official visit to the hon. Gentleman’s constituency; in other words, it is not a private activity, and although I do not think it would be reasonable for the hon. Gentleman to expect 50 communications from individual Members who would be attending that gathering, I do think it is reasonable for the hon. Gentleman to expect to be informed in advance by a representative of that party, so I hope that the self-styled voice of Shipley is reassured by my response to his point of order.
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. It has emerged this afternoon that the police were informed in the last few days that a court judgment means that the current operation of police bail, which has operated since 1986, has now been thrown up into the air. I have spoken within the last half hour, the West Yorkshire chief constable, who says he may now not be able to recall thousands of suspects who are currently on police bail, and that it is possible that some emergency action or emergency legislation may be needed. We stand ready to discuss any emergency legislation that may be needed to help the police do their business and carry on with the important work that they do, but have you been informed by the Home Secretary that this is an urgent issue, and that there may be a need for a statement to the House?
Mr Speaker
I have not been so informed, and it is not strictly a point of order, although it is a point of very serious and pressing concern to the right hon. Lady and to others, and that concern will have been heard by Members on the Treasury Bench. If she judges it necessary, it might be a subject to which, if she is dissatisfied, she will want to return before long.
Adoption (Leave, Pay and Allowance Arrangements)
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Mr Speaker
We come now to the 10-minute rule motion, for which the hon. Member for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz) has been patiently waiting.
Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Follow that, as they say in all the best music halls.
I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to make provision to equalise leave, pay and allowance arrangements for adoptive parents with those of parents whose children are born to them; to equalise eligibility for adoption leave and pay with that of maternity leave and pay; to equalise the rates of pay for the first six weeks of maternity leave and adoption leave; to equalise the entitlement to allowances for self-employed adopters and self-employed mothers; and for connected purposes.
I want to set out the current position, what these provisions would do and why the Bill is important. It all started in April this year, when I attended the annual delegates meeting of the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers and heard the impassioned speeches from delegates who asked for adoptive parents to be given the same statutory rights as parents who have children born to them. I thank Neil Clarkson of USDAW and Adoption UK for their help with the background information, and of course the Library.
The Bill is not about who can adopt and why; it is about how adopters are treated in relation to statutory pay and leave when they do. If they were treated equally, perhaps more would come forward. The issues in my Bill, however, have been effectively overlooked, falling through the gap between the Department for Education and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, but I am pleased that the Government are currently looking at adoption, and the Under-Secretary of State for Education, the hon. Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), who has responsibility for children and families, has assembled a ministerial advisory group. I hope it will consider the measures in the Bill as part of its discussions.
There also need to be improvements in the support available for adoptive parents. That could be achieved by improving training and awareness for teachers, psychologists, paediatricians, social workers and health visitors. As some adopters have found, it is important that there is a greater awareness among professionals of the particular challenges faced by these children and their families.
Briefly, the statutory background is as follows. It was only in 1999 that adopting parents in the UK had a statutory right to any leave to care for their children. The Employment Act 2002 and subsequent regulations introduced a statutory right to paid adoption leave analogous to statutory maternity pay and maternity leave. From April 2003, adopting parents were also entitled to a period of paid adoption leave when the child is first placed with a family. The Work and Families Act 2006 extended statutory adoption pay to 39 weeks from April 2007.
But statutory entitlements to adoption pay and leave are less than those for maternity pay and leave. The reasons for the differences were not specifically addressed in Committee debates. The Government arguably justify the differences on the ground of health, safety and welfare of women who have given birth, but adoptive parents face great challenges too in welcoming a new member of their family. They need time and support to bond with their child, and to understand the sometimes difficult background of their new child.
My Bill asks for the following. First, equal eligibility for maternity and adoption leave. Adoptive parents should be entitled to adoption leave irrespective of length of service, as are pregnant women. Pregnant women are entitled to a total of 52 weeks’ maternity leave, irrespective of their length of service—26 weeks’ ordinary maternity leave and 26 weeks’ additional maternity leave. The statutory entitlement for adoptive parents is also 52 weeks, but they must have completed 26 weeks’ continuous service with their employer.
Secondly, my Bill asks for equal rates of pay for the first six weeks of adoption and maternity leave. Statutory maternity pay is paid at 90% of the weekly average earnings for six weeks, and then the lower rate of statutory maternity pay or 90% of average earnings, whichever is the lower. But statutory adoption pay is paid at the lower rate throughout the 39 weeks of statutory adoption pay.
Thirdly, self-employed adopters should be eligible for a statutory allowance equivalent to maternity allowance. Self-employed adoptive mothers cannot access the equivalent of maternity allowance available to self-employed biological mothers.
What do some employers do now? Some employers have their own contractual policies, which make the entitlements more equal. Many civil service departments and agencies offer enhanced maternity leave and pay provision. But as Adoption UK has found out, many employers enhance maternity but not adoption packages, leading to double discrimination. I can give some examples.
At the Department for Work and Pensions, the eligibility for 52 weeks of adoption and maternity leave is equalised, as are levels of contractual maternity and adoption leave for employees with one year’s service. However, there is still a difference in the rate of pay for the first six weeks for those on the statutory package. At BIS, contractual adoption and maternity entitlements appear to be equalised: 52 weeks’ adoption leave and maternity leave are both entitlements regardless of the length of service. The Foreign and Commonwealth Office offers a statutory package, or contractual maternity/adoption pay, on full salary during 26 weeks’ ordinary maternity/adoption leave, subject to certain conditions including a year’s service. However, on the parliamentary estate, instead of matching the contractual maternity arrangements of six months on full pay, contractual adoption pay gives only two weeks on full pay. In an answer to me, the Department for Education says:
“All staff regardless of the length of service or appointment status are eligible for 28 weeks of maternity or adoption leave on full pay. All staff have the option to follow that with 24 weeks of unpaid maternity or adoption leave.”—[Official Report, 28 June 2011; Vol. 530, c. 758W.]
What does the private sector do? I have heard from the John Lewis Partnership, which says that the eligibility for adoption leave still requires 26 weeks’ service. But it says:
“After a qualifying period of two years, we top up adoption pay to the partner’s contractual rate of pay for the first 14 weeks. We take exactly the same approach with maternity leave.”
The measures in the Bill are important, because it would show that society values adopters. There is a financial and social cost benefit of getting children out of care. In the 2009-10 financial year, around £3 billion was spent on looked-after children. That is a gross figure of £37,000 per child. The sad fact is that there are 64,400 children in local authority care in England. Only 3,200 were adopted during the year to 31 March 2010.
In conclusion, we should recognise and reward adopters, and show them that they are valued as parents, by equalising their entitlements to support. That would support the Government’s aim of increasing the number of adopters. The legislative changes are minor and the financial costs are minimal, and they are far outweighed by the benefits, in both the short and the long term. The changes that the legislation would make to the lives of adoptive parents would enable them to give their children the best start in their vital first year. Local authorities and adoption agencies placing children expect the new parents to take time off work of up to one year, and adoptive parents should be compensated in the way that birth parents are.
Perhaps the next child who is adopted and given a home will become the next Steve Jobs—inventor of the iPad, beloved of many Members—or the next KT Tunstall, the brilliant singer-songwriter; both those people were adopted. As Pablo Casals said:
“Each child is unique; each child is a marvel. We must all work hard to make the world worthy of its children.”
I am sure that the whole House agrees with that sentiment. I commend the Bill to the House.
Question put and agreed to.
Ordered,
That Valerie Vaz, Ann Coffey, Julie Elliott, Yvonne Fovargue, Richard Harrington, Keith Vaz, Julie Hilling, Margaret Hodge, Grahame M. Morris and Fiona O’Donnell present the Bill.
Valerie Vaz accordingly presented the Bill.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on 20 January 2012, and to be printed (Bill 212).
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
18:59 - The House divided: - Ayes: 295 / Noes: 212 - Question accordingly agreed to.
19:14 - The House divided: - Ayes: 289 / Noes: 205 - Question accordingly agreed to.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Before I call the Lord Chancellor, I should say that this Second Reading debate is well subscribed. There is an eight-minute limit on Back-Bench contributions. I ask Front Benchers from both sides to use their restraint, so that more Back Benchers can speak. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear!”] I have never said anything so popular in my life.
Given the number who have subscribed, I ask Members not to approach the Chair to ask where they are on the list; those who have approached or written to Mr Speaker will be on the list.
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
I shall try to observe your strictures, Mr Deputy Speaker, but this is a very large piece of legislation; I shall probably have to restrict the number of times I give way to interventions.
I am determined to reform the justice system in this country. Keeping the public safe, ensuring that those who break the law face the consequences and providing swift, cost-effective access to justice are fundamental responsibilities of the state towards its citizens. Yet the last 13 years of government have left us a system whose cost and scale have exploded and whose failings can no longer be tolerated.
In the area of criminal justice, more than 20 new Acts of Parliament, thousands of new criminal offences and a huge increase in the prison population cannot mask very deep flaws in the system. Briefly, our sentencing framework is a mess of byzantine complexity that even trained lawyers and judges—never mind the general public—find confusing.
Our punishments do not work. Community sentences are weak, asking little of offenders, and prisons have become so crowded that there is no space for governors to enforce regimes of meaningful work or reparation. Far too many prisoners are left idle in their cells, often on drugs. For that model, the taxpayer has the privilege of paying out an extraordinary sum—£44,000 per prison place per year. I have just been assured that the Ritz is even more expensive, so I slightly exaggerated, but £44,000 per prison place per year is enough to pay the salaries of two newly qualified nurses or teachers.
Mr Straw
I am grateful to the Lord Chancellor. We have heard about this alleged litany of failures. When the right hon. and learned Gentleman was Home Secretary, crime was at a post-war peak on both the measures that the Prime Minister used to discuss crime at questions earlier today. Since then, burglaries have dropped by 70%, thefts by 50%, and crime overall by 50%. Is the fact that the Lord Chancellor never, ever refers to the outcomes of our record due to the fact that that happened mainly under us or the fact that the process started under his successor, Michael Howard?
Mr Clarke
The idea that I set off a crime wave when I was Home Secretary is a charge that I will answer on some other occasion, frankly. As far as the decline in crime is concerned, the biggest decline has been in theft because car manufacturers made cars more secure. The courts used to be full of taking and driving away offences, but are no longer because it is more difficult to take the cars.
The fall in burglary coincided with an economic boom—one of the consequences that came from it. The 20-plus Bills that the right hon. Gentleman and his predecessors brought before the House—more than one criminal justice Bill a year—and the countless changes in sentences filled up the prisons, but in my opinion had no provable, demonstrable effect at all on the levels of crime in this country.
Mr Clarke
The right hon. Gentleman is an ex-Front Bencher. I will give way to him later, but I should observe the strictures of Mr Deputy Speaker, although I enjoy debating with the right hon. Gentleman. I should move on a little further into my speech.
As the right hon. Gentleman has heard me say before, reoffending rates are a national scandal; that is why the system is failing. Half of offenders—49%—have been reconvicted, in part because the system is not tackling the underlying causes of their criminality such as drug abuse, poor mental health and inadequate skills. The consequence of that failure is new victims of crime every day. Despite improvement, victims and witnesses too often still get treated as an afterthought, not a central concern of justice. That is why we need intelligent, radical reform of the criminal justice system to protect and serve the needs of law-abiding members of society.
Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)
Will the Lord Chancellor give way?
Mr Clarke
I will later, but let me deal with what we are having to tackle in civil justice. The sad truth is that it, too, has serious weaknesses. Courts should be accessible and efficient, but generally turned to as a place of last resort, not a first choice. But we have a litigious society and far too many cases go down the court route unnecessarily. Last year, more than three quarters of claims in the civil system set down to proceed to trial were settled before the trial took place. Many of those cases might have been resolved earlier, with different approaches aimed at simpler dispute resolution. Ordinary citizens find the law an expensive, daunting nightmare, not a public service.
Mr Clarke
I will in a second. Courts are slow and burdened by high costs and bureaucratic processes and procedures. For example, the average length of a public family law case in 1989 was 12 weeks; by 2010, it stood at 53 weeks, with similar cases taking four times as long as they used to.
Chris Leslie
I am grateful to the Lord Chancellor. Many victims of crime will be shocked at his proposals to limit the freedom of judges to remand a defendant in custody. Why is he limiting and fettering the ability of judges to put those defendants on remand?
Mr Clarke
I was going to argue this later; I will try to avoid repeating myself. I cannot understand why people are so incensed that people who are not going to be sent to prison might not be kept in prison awaiting trial. Every year, 16,000 people are refused bail, kept in prison, convicted and immediately given bail. A quarter of all the people kept in custody are released when they come up for trial. I shall come back to the matter, although I shall try to avoid repeating the same arguments. It seems to me that unless one is trying to fill up the prisons with people, that is one of the more obvious steps we can take. If they are not going to justify imprisonment when they get to trial, it seems to me pointless to refuse them bail, except in the case of domestic violence cases, where we have agreed to make an exception because we cannot grant bail to someone who is going back to live with the alleged victim of the domestic violence.
David T. C. Davies (Monmouth) (Con)
The Secretary of State will be aware that many people are remanded on bail because they refuse to turn up to court, causing the taxpayer all sorts of expense. Can he assure us that even if the crime committed is not one that would normally result in a jail sentence, people who consistently refuse to turn up to court will be remanded in custody?
Mr Clarke
Without fettering judicial discretion, I think I can give that assurance. There are all sorts of grounds on which bail can be refused. We are saying that where it is likely that a person will not be imprisoned when they come up for trial, they should not be refused bail.
Mr Clarke
No, I am sorry. I respect the right hon. Gentleman, but I must move on.
I have said that ordinary citizens find the civil law a rather nightmarish experience when they resort to it. Thanks to the present scope of legal aid and the way in which the no-win, no-fee system operates, many people and, in particular, many small businesses live in fear of legal action. I accept that access to justice for the protection of fundamental rights is vital for a democratic society—something on which I will not compromise. However, our current legal aid system can encourage people to bring their problems before the courts when the basic problem is not a legal one and would be better dealt with in other ways. The scope of legal aid has expanded too far. It cannot be right, for example, that the taxpayer is forced to pay for legal advice to foreign students whose visa applications are turned down. There are many other examples.
Our legal aid system also faces a completely unignorable problem of affordability. I have listened to arguments in the media today challenging that, but we have by far the most expensive system in the world, after Northern Ireland, where I am sure the same problem will be tackled. It costs £39 per head of population in this country, each year, compared with £8 in, for example, New Zealand, which has a similar system of law. In any circumstances our system would need reform; in the country’s current financial crisis reform is imperative.
I have some advice for Labour Members. I do not usually give gratuitous advice, but I think the Labour party is facing one of the problems that we faced in 1997. It should find the courage to admit that it made some mistakes and left some things in a mess. It has been acknowledged by my opposite number, the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan), that, on Labour’s watch:
“Playing tough in order not to look soft made it harder to focus on what is effective”—
wise words. I thought, when we set off on this process of consultation, I had the widespread support of many Opposition Members. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to reflect on the way in which he started his consideration before he gets on with the rest of the debate.
In fact, when Labour was in office, its strategy for our prisons and our courts was legislative incontinence combined with kneejerk populism. On prisons, the Labour Government made the mistake of being unable to make proper provision for the demand for places that they stimulated. Overcrowding devoured the very budgets that should have been used productively to cut reoffending and improve public safety in a lasting way. What was the final result that we all remember? They had to reduce the release point from two thirds to halfway through the sentence. They then had to resort to the financial chicanery of keeping the cost of building prisons off the balance sheet—the so-called Carter prisons. Finally—the ultimate absurdity—they had to let out 80,000 prisoners early, before the end of their sentence, to offset the cost of the allegedly tougher sentences that they had imposed. That is why we need reform now—to reverse that nonsense.
On wider justice matters, the Labour Government proved little better at getting a grip. They had 30 consultations on legal aid from 2006; they did not act decisively, put the system on a sustainable footing or address the litigiousness to which its excessively widely available funding contributed.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
My right hon. and learned Friend has had a consultation, to which I hope he has listened, particularly in respect of criminal negligence affecting children with multiple injuries that may have resulted from birth. It is not clear to me yet that the Government have found a way of ensuring that that very deserving and small group of people will have access to justice and to the settlements that they need.
Mr Clarke
We have addressed clinical negligence, a large part of which is now conducted on a no-win, no-fee basis. That is the way we should proceed. Clinical negligence cases of the kind to which the right hon. Gentleman refers are especially expensive and it is quite difficult to decide whether to proceed with them, so we are making special arrangements, particularly for the expensive medical reports that have to be obtained before a case can properly be decided on. We are making arrangements to make the insurance reimbursable in those cases. I would also like to see a system developed by the NHS litigation authority and the best of the practitioners to exchange expert medical reports at a very early stage, so that we can avoid unnecessary litigation about whether a tragic disaster to a newborn baby was actually a natural tragedy or the result of negligence, and so that such cases need not drag on for the many years that they can take to go through the courts. I accept that that is a special case, and we considered it carefully during the consultation. We made quite a lot of changes during the consultation, some of which were referred to dramatically in outside comment.
Nicky Morgan
I hear what the Secretary of State says about the failure of the last Government to tackle the burgeoning legal aid system. Did they not also fail to tackle the complexity of other departmental work that our citizens advice bureaux, which do such valuable work, help with—for example, Department for Work and Pensions forms? The Government’s response hints at a review of some of the other parts of legal aid which will inevitably have to be cut. Will the Secretary of State give more detail about that review and about whether the burden will be shared across Departments?
Mr Clarke
Yes, I will. I try to avoid jumping from subject to subject, because it is such an enormous Bill, but I promise my hon. Friend that I shall return to the whole question of alternative forms of advice and the CABs, and make an announcement at a later stage in the proceedings on the Bill.
Bridget Phillipson
Another aspect of the changes to legal aid is the removal of legal aid from women applying for indefinite leave to remain under the domestic violence rule. In an answer to a parliamentary question, the Minister for Immigration reported that only 710 women were granted that, so we are not talking about a considerable number, but they are very vulnerable individuals. Will the Secretary of State think again on that aspect of his proposals?
Mr Clarke
Indeed. Ministers have talked about the matter and considered it carefully, and I leave it to my hon. Friend to give an authoritative reply in his winding-up speech.
I hope that I have already indicated that the mess that we have inherited requires a bold, sustained and principled effort, not salami slicing and half-measures. The Bill is one part of the balanced package of reforms that is needed. Unusually, I made a full statement to the House last week on the subject, and it was debated for one and a half hours, so I do not propose to repeat in depth what I said then. Let me turn to the inevitable controversy that any measures on criminal sentencing are bound to provoke. It is a natural part of contemporary political debate to simplify the subject and to make extremes out of it all. I am resigned to the fact that on law and order issues above all there is a tendency to polarise, and to frame reforms as either dry and tough, or wet, soft and liberal. The truth is somewhere in between. The aim of the measures I proposed was to consult on a balanced package, and it remains so.
The measures address the weaknesses that we inherited. For serious crime, the public must have confidence in the system of effective punishment and just retribution, so my reforms include, for example, introducing a 40-hour working week across the prison estate to introduce productive hard work into prisons in place of enforced idleness.
The Bill toughens community sentences by allowing courts to curfew offenders for longer—16 hours a day for up to 12 months—and to ban them from going abroad. As I signalled last week, we intend to introduce measures to clarify householders’ rights of defence and to consult on criminalising squatting.
The Bill creates a new offence of possessing a knife to threaten or endanger a person, with a prison sentence of at least six months for over-18s to send a clear message to those who possess a knife to threaten others.
We are conducting a review with the intention of replacing the discredited sentence whereby people are locked up for an undetermined and indefinite time—the so-called imprisonment for public protection—with a tough determinate sentencing regime. I propose to deliver a system that offers better reparation to victims. The Bill will replace and augment the Prisoners’ Earnings Act 1996, which the previous Government never implemented—it was a Conservative measure. This will allow us to deduct wages from prisoners so that instead of their just being a drain on the system we can deduct money to help to pay for services for the victims of crime. The Bill places a positive obligation on courts to make offenders pay compensation directly to victims.
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
The Lord Chancellor mentions the review of indeterminate sentences. My concern is that he will reach the wrong conclusion. When he conducts his review will he look at experience in Northern Ireland, where extended and indeterminate sentences have been available since 2008 but where, crucially, the assessment of danger is left in the hands of judges? It is a smaller system, but in the three years since its introduction there have been only 63 extended sentences and seven indeterminate sentences. Public safety has been combined with manageable numbers: will he look at that experience?
Mr Clarke
We are having a review, so I will look at that. Legislation was enacted in 2003, in the belief that a few hundred people might be affected. It commenced in 2005. The previous Government, of whom the right hon. Gentleman was a member, tried to reform it in 2008, because it was already out of control. I proposed further reforms in the Green Paper, and a very large number of people in the criminal justice system said that the legislation should be repealed. Last week, I quoted David Thomas, the author of “Thomas on Sentencing”, who described the whole thing as an unmitigated disaster. I will look into the right hon. Gentleman’s suggestion to see whether some aspects of the Northern Irish system might be appropriate.
After punishment and reparation comes rehabilitation to reduce reoffending, which is at the core of our process of reform. Sentences must be punitive and reformative. The Bill will help to ensure that more offenders with drugs, alcohol or mental health problems are addressed and receive treatment at the earliest opportunity.This complicates our efforts—
Mr Clarke
Complements—it might do both, but I hope it will complement our efforts to tackle drugs in prison.
Drugs are widely available in prisons, but we shall start by introducing drug-free wings. My single most radical proposal on rehabilitation is a non-legislative change to introduce a fundamental shift in how we approach the issue by paying by results to unlock private capital, benefit from the innovation of the voluntary sector and get the whole system pulling in the same direction. We will pay providers a return on their ethical investment for what works in the public interest: turning criminals into ex-criminals should be an object of the system.
Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)
I am interested in the Secretary of State’s comments on the number of people in our prisons who, unfortunately, suffer from mental illness and need support and treatment, which is often inadequate. Will he recognise the greater problem: that many people who need support with mental illness or who are experiencing mental health crises do not get it, and there are insufficient resources and insufficient understanding among the police and others that the real cause of minor offences often is mental illness and nothing else. We need a more sympathetic, supportive and therapeutic approach to dealing with these poor, unfortunate people.
Mr Clarke
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health agrees with the hon. Gentleman and me. My ministerial team and my right hon. Friend’s ministerial team have been holding discussions. My right hon. Friend has a strategy for trying to improve mental health services to the population as a whole. As part of that we are addressing what can be done to help the mentally ill who find themselves in prison. Some of them should be diverted from the criminal justice system altogether; some can be better treated in secure accommodation in the national health service; and many can be treated better than they are at present when being incarcerated in prison is not suitable. I assure the hon. Gentleman that my right hon. Friend and I share his concern.
Underpinning punishment, reparation and rehabilitation is what might be called system reform—simplification, restoration of discretion to judges and the relief of unnecessary pressures on the system. At the same time we must take a more robust approach to costs in the system, including that of prison. We have already shown that through competition it is possible to get prison costs down while improving service quality. Key measures in the Bill include reforming the use of remand. I dealt with this a moment ago. I have told the House that preventing reoffending is the central idea of my reforms. One of the main barriers to doing things in the past few years has been the fact that the prisons have been clogged up, sometimes with people who do not need to be there at all. I will not repeat the arguments that I made a moment ago that give rise to the part of the Bill that restricts the power of courts to remand those who have no reasonable prospect of receiving a custodial sentence, with the exception that I have already described of cases of domestic violence.
Mr Straw
In answer to the hon. Member for Monmouth (David T.C. Davies) the Secretary of State said that where a defendant failed to return to court on time, the court would still be able to remand him in custody so that he could get to court. The Secretary of State clearly spoke in error, because if he looks at page 166 of his own Bill he will see that paragraph (5) to schedule 10 makes it absolutely clear that even where a defendant has failed to surrender to bail and has been arrested he cannot be detained in custody to appear in court unless there is a real prospect of his subsequently being sentenced to imprisonment. How will the public be made safer or witnesses protected by that?
Mr Clarke
I will address the extent to which we retain discretion, as determined under the bail Acts, according to which bail is granted or refused. In 2010, more than 16,000 people were in custody but were released when they appeared for trial and either pleaded guilty or were convicted. Continuing a system whereby people are refused bail when everyone knows that they will not be imprisoned if convicted is a very wasteful use of a very expensive place in our prison system.
Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con)
Someone who breaches bail commits a criminal offence and can therefore, and usually does, receive a custodial sentence, especially if they did not attend court when they should have.
Mr Clarke
I am grateful. My hon. Friend has been in practice much more recently than the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) or I have. We will doubtless continue to study this after the debate.
The sentencing reforms are balanced. Again, I shall quote the words of my shadow, the right hon. Member for Tooting, who when I first published them in the Green Paper described them as
“a perfectly sensible vision for a sentencing policy”,
and they will in my view achieve a very significant transformation.
That brings me to the rest of the Bill covering legal aid and provision on litigation and funding. No Government look to tackle legal aid lightly, but the system as it stands is obviously unaffordable. Labour had 30 goes at fixing it between 2006 and the end of their period in office and we have sought to go back and think about what the taxpayer should pay for by way of litigation from first principles. Our priority is cases where people’s life or liberty is at stake, where they are at risk of serious physical harm or immediate loss of their home or where their children may be taken into care. After our reforms, legal aid will routinely be available in 25 areas, including for criminal cases, for most judicial review proceedings, for private family law cases involving domestic violence, child abuse and child abduction, for community care, for debt where the home is at immediate risk, for mental health cases and for cases concerning special educational needs. We modified our original proposals in response to consultation, listening carefully to the thousands of responses that we received.
Legal aid will no longer be routinely available in 13 areas, including most private family law cases, clinical negligence cases, non-discrimination employment cases, immigration cases, some debt and housing issues, some education cases and welfare benefits cases.
Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
How does the Lord Chancellor square what he is saying with what Baroness Hale of the Supreme Court has said about this being a ludicrous Bill and how these provisions will disproportionately affect the most vulnerable in society, particularly people from ethnic minorities?
Mr Clarke
I have always had a high regard for Baroness Hale, who is a very distinguished lawyer, and I have heard of her opinions. I shall have to study them and perhaps even meet her to discuss them, because I am surprised by her response. Where we started from was ensuring that we did not damage access to justice for vulnerable people in matters of such importance that society as a whole would want to be sure that they were protected. Either she has misunderstood the effect of our proposals or why we are doing it. We have to get back to spending an affordable amount of money on paying for things that the taxpayer should actually pay for to defend the vulnerable. We all start as lawyers, let alone as citizens, with a slight bias in favour of legal aid because everyone is used to it, but the scale of legal aid has expanded, its scope is too wide and it needs to be reformed.
Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
I am grateful to the Lord Chancellor for saying that legal aid will be available to defend the vulnerable. I declare an interest as one who has been a duty solicitor in the police station. I would like him to consult carefully about the practical implementation of proposals to limit legal aid for advice and assistance in police stations, given that his officials no doubt bear the scars of previous implementations that became bureaucratic nightmares. Losing the benefit of the informed legal advice that one needs in the police station can lead to inefficient justice.
Mr Clarke
We will look at that and consider it carefully as we proceed. At the moment, the Bill replicates a provision taken from an earlier Bill by the Labour party. It appears to give a power to take away the right to legal aid. It appears to give a power to take away access to legal advice in the police station. The last Government legislated to do that but never did it. We have no current intentions of doing it. We will consider the issue and no doubt my hon. Friend or others will return to it in Committee. I realise that there has been some concern.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
At the annual general meeting of Liberty earlier this month, the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) said that the Government should reconsider their plans to remove certain categories of social welfare law, at least for a period while Government reforms elsewhere in the system—such as welfare reforms—create increased demand for advice. Will the Lord Chancellor accept that excellent advice from his right hon. Friend and protect those categories of legal aid, at least during a transition period?
Mr Clarke
We have consulted very carefully on legal aid, on both parts. We have made quite significant changes to what we originally proposed. On welfare benefits, we are still of the opinion that the welfare system was not intended to provide a source of litigation where legal advice was required to take an appeal in the last resort to a tribunal. That was not intended to be a legalistic activity but to try to apply what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Social Security is trying to make more comprehensible by dealing with the rules of entitlement to social security in a sensible fashion. I do not think it is a promising area for legal advice.
Joan Ruddock
I was present at Lady Hale’s lecture and wrote down what she said:
“Courts should be and are a last resort but they should be a last resort which is accessible to all––rich and poor alike.”
Let me tell the Lord Chancellor this now: my constituents are people who need advice on immigration, on welfare and on housing and whose very lives can be wrecked by the fact that they cannot get legal assistance. Where am I to send them? How are they to get justice with the provisions in his Bill on legal aid and on no win, no fee?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. May I remind the House how many Members wish to contribute? Our mission should be to limit our interventions.
Mr Clarke
I have already said that access to justice is fundamental, but the fact is that the taxpayer’s money cannot be used to give access to justice to large numbers of people in large areas of law where the ordinary citizen would not contemplate litigating because the ordinary citizen on an ordinary income would not think that they could afford to embark on it. That is why we consulted very carefully. We concentrated on vulnerable people and on those areas that were of such importance that society as a whole would plainly feel that there was a need to finance people of limited means so that they could have access to justice. I ask the right hon. Lady to judge all our proposals on that basis. Lady Hale seemed to think that we were abolishing other access on the basis that people were using it too much. That is not the reason. But we do have a system that is four times as expensive as that of New Zealand. We have to concentrate the mind and decide what it is justified to expect the taxpayer to pay for.
Mr Clarke
I shall follow your helpful steer, Mr Deputy Speaker, and make progress. I realise that these are important matters, but I could find myself giving way to everyone in the Chamber.
Few of these are easy choices, but they often involve disputes about financial issues rather than life and liberty. It is sensible to give such things as financial disputes a lower relative priority. It is sensible, too, to address areas that the public consider unreasonable. For example, we are cutting out legal aid for squatting. Following representations from the Judges Council, we are ending legal aid for some repeat judicial reviews on immigration and asylum cases that have already had a hearing and where repeated review is being used only to obstruct and delay proceedings.
Across some of these areas, reformed no win, no fee arrangements will be available, but our broader ambition is that people will be encouraged to use alternative, less adversarial means of resolving many of these important problems. For private family law cases, the Government are increasing spending on mediation and legal advice in support of mediation by two thirds, or £10 million, to a total of £25 million a year. Mediation has a high success rate––about 75%––in resolving most of the family disputes that go before it.
We have made no blanket funding exclusions. The Bill establishes an exceptional funding scheme for exceptional cases, administered by a statutory office holder free of ministerial control. That will provide funding for an excluded case where in the particular circumstances the failure to provide support would be likely to result in breach of the individual’s right to legal aid under the Human Rights Act 1998 or European law.
Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con)
Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?
Mr Clarke
Let me deal with this important point, because I have heard widespread concern, including from my hon. Friend the Member for Loughborough (Nicky Morgan), about the future of not-for-profit advice centres. I agree that they do important work in providing quality, worthwhile advice of the kind required by very many people who should not need adversarial lawyers. Legal aid represents only one of several income streams for many organisations, with 85% of citizens advice bureaux funding coming from other sources. Half of all bureaux get no legal aid funds at all. This issue needs to be, and has been, considered on a cross-Government, interdepartmental basis. We are working with the sector and across Government to ensure that the Government reforms help to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of the advice services available to the public, and we will provide up to £20 million of additional funding in this financial year to help achieve that. We are also, of course, mindful of the impact of reforms beyond this financial year and will continue to consider the issues arising from that.
Oliver Heald (North East Hertfordshire) (Con)
Will my right hon. and learned Friend give way?
Mr Clarke
Not at the moment; I shall carry on a little further.
In addition to the changes to the scope of legal aid, the Bill includes wider reform provisions, as some reform of the situation that we inherited is urgently and obviously needed. I do not believe the public understand a system that can pay out millions of pounds from taxpayer-provided central funds to compensate acquitted companies and wealthy people for their legal costs, whether that involves the £21 million paid to the firms in the Hatfield rail crash case, the £18 million paid to a number of pharmaceutical firms accused of price fixing, or the hundreds of thousands of pounds that have on occasion gone to celebrities accused of affray, assault and other crimes.
Part 2 of the Bill therefore establishes that defendants who decline legal aid and pay privately in the higher criminal courts will no longer be able to recover the costs of an expensive private lawyer if acquitted. In the magistrates’ courts, the sums recoverable will be limited to legal aid rates. Firms will be expected to insure against criminal prosecutions, and will no longer be able to recover costs from the taxpayer.
The Bill is therefore about delivering reform across the justice system, and we have tried to think about that in a joined-up way. Let us consider problems often affecting women—about which Lady Hale was concerned when she spoke the other day. For victims of crime, I have recently announced funding for 15 rape crisis centres on a more secure long-term basis than in the past and funding for four new centres. For women using the justice system, in our legal aid reforms we are prioritising those cases where there is greatest risk of harm, retaining legal aid for cases involving domestic violence, child abuse and child abduction, and we have broadened the range of evidence accepted.
In private family law, the taxpayer is increasing funding for mediation and legal advice in support of mediation. More broadly on family cases, part 2 of the Bill extends the powers for courts to require one party to pay towards the other’s legal bills in some cases where resources are not equal. For example, when a couple have parted and the man remains very prosperous whereas the woman is almost penniless and is seeking some remedy, the court will have the power to require one party to pay towards the other’s costs. In public family law, the taxpayer will still be providing more than £400 million for family legal aid.
For female offenders in the criminal justice system, we have not replaced—and I have never proposed replacing—short-term prison sentences with community sentences, but if we can increase confidence that community sentences will be meaningfully punitive, they could make the justice system more sensible in some situations, such as in ensuring that there are decent non-penal options for offenders with caring responsibilities where their being sent to prison would cause chaos for innocent children in their families. In dealing with women prisoners and offenders, we are, in fact, proceeding on a very similar basis to the previous Government.
My vision is a legal system that is substantially reformed. In addition to implementing changes to legal aid and the Jackson proposals on no win, no fee, my Department is developing and supporting work to improve civil legal processes, criminal justice efficiency and family justice. It is a measure of the challenge before us that the Bill, which on any measure is a huge Leviathan of a piece of proposed legislation, is only part of the overall reforms we need to deliver. The changes we are making are, of course, financially necessary, but they will also make the system more sensible and civilised.
I never shrink from robust debate about improvement to important and sensitive public services, and changes in the criminal law have always excited an extraordinary level of controversy, and they always will. If we get this right, however, the prize is a justice system that properly contributes to a safer, fairer society, and a justice system that is user-friendly, that works, that does not deny access to justice and that has less daunting waste, with costs under control. I would, in fact, have liked to introduce such a major reforming Bill 20 years ago, if I had stayed long enough at the Home Office. I now have the opportunity to do so, and I commend the Bill to the House.
Sadiq Khan (Tooting) (Lab)
I usually take all interventions, but today I shall try to observe your recent stricture on that, Mr Deputy Speaker, as I know that many colleagues wish to discuss the Bill.
The Government’s approach to criminal justice is in tatters. We have a hotch-potch that does nothing to win the confidence of victims, of people in the justice system or of the public at large. This Bill is controversial as much for what is absent as for what has found its way in. Key policy areas that were consulted on are absent and others are to be the subject of further review, while there are some clauses on issues that were not consulted on at all. The Lord Chancellor knows as well as I do that within weeks, if not days, of this Bill moving to Committee, there will be a flood of new amendments and new clauses. After 13 months, three Green Papers and three consultations, there is no excuse.
Last week, the Prime Minister unveiled the right hon. and learned Gentleman’s legislation in his absence. A number of eye-catching proposals were announced on squatting, self-defence and knife crime. The favourable coverage they received was precisely the Prime Minister’s aim. Suddenly, because of the Prime Minister’s last-minute intervention, the Bill was spun as being tough on crime. Even the words “punishment of offenders” found their way into the name of the Bill, but we must be clear from the start: the clause on knife crime is still a Conservative broken promise. It is not what the party promised in its manifesto. The new offence of aggravated knife possession carries a mandatory six-month sentence, but applies to a much narrower category of cases of those caught carrying a knife. The offence of aggravated knife possession is using a knife to threaten someone, and that is already a crime; the sentencing guidelines already recommend a minimum sentence of six months. It is not even properly mandatory. A court will not have to hand down the sentence; it will be up to the judge to decide, given the circumstances of the case or the offender. Knife crime is a persistent and worrying concern, and it impacts in particular on young people and the disadvantaged. It is unclear how this hollow proposal will help communities blighted by knife crime.
Two other headline grabbers—squatting and self-defence against burglars—are not even in the Bill, but as the Justice Secretary has admitted today, the provisions on self-defence will not be a new law; they are just a reiteration of the existing law. This is yet another chapter in a rather depressing story that has been repeated since May 2010: a string of broken promises on criminal justice. Before the election, there was a commitment to match Labour’s prison building programme. Instead, spend has been slashed to almost zero. The Tories promised minimum and maximum sentencing, but that has now also been ditched, and the electorate were promised that those caught carrying a knife would face the presumption of jail, yet what we have been presented with is entirely different.
Let me also give an accurate account of our record. The Justice Secretary inherited levels of crime that were 43% lower than in 1997; crime went down under Labour. He inherited a system with a greater focus on diversion for those with mental health problems and drug dependencies. He inherited a capital programme upgrading and expanding our prison estate. He inherited innovative payment-by-results schemes, including the one he now boasts about in Peterborough. Reoffending, particularly among young people, fell under Labour, thanks to investment in effective intervention programmes now threatened by his Government. This Bill risks all that progress.
That has generated an impressive coalition opposed to the plans, from the judiciary, victims groups, legal organisations, charities that act on behalf of some of the most vulnerable in society, and some of the Justice Secretary’s own party’s Back Benchers—but not, I note, from the Liberal Democrat Benches. Briefing note after briefing note from organisations as diverse as Scope and Justice demonstrate that the Prime Minister’s perceived rescue of the justice Bill is fooling no one.
I support penal reforms, but these are the wrong reforms: carelessly thought out, badly framed, confusingly argued, weakly handled and grossly under-resourced from the start. It will be communities around the country that suffer.
Mr Kenneth Clarke
I am glad to hear that the right hon. Gentleman is in favour of penal reform, but he has not, so far as I am aware, made a single suggestion on that. Will he give us one or two examples of the liberal reforms that he has in mind?
Sadiq Khan
The right hon. and learned Gentleman will be aware of our progress in relation to mental health, following the Bradley report, which he has now agreed to follow with a reduced budget. He will also be aware of the work done by Corston on diverting women away from prison, and of payment by results. He knows that he has under-resourced the work that we began, and he is putting our strategy at risk.
Shambolic, last-minute changes to the Bill have left a £140 million black hole in the Justice Secretary’s plans. The Prime Minister has said that that money will need to be found within the Ministry of Justice budget, and the Justice Secretary admitted this morning that he is not sure where he will find it. The House needs to know the exact details. The progress of the Bill depends on knowing where that money will come from, and what implications that might have on other spend.
Why do we have this problem? We have it because the Justice Secretary simply failed to argue his corner with the Treasury. He boasted that he did not wish to be involved in a “macho contest” with Cabinet colleagues over who could have the smallest budget cut. The figures are testimony to that: his budget cut of 23% is one of the biggest in Whitehall. As a result, that is how he justifies his ill-thought-out policies. Cuts to prison, probation and the legal aid budget all stem from his lackadaisical attitude towards the Treasury. He needs to realise that he is no longer the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but the Lord Chancellor. His justice policy is retrofitted around his prison population reduction target, which is in turn driven by the 23% budget cuts. Our justice system deserves a better advocate.
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
May I remind the right hon. Gentleman that in November, he said:
“Let me be clear: had we been in government today, we, too, would have been announcing savings to the legal aid budget”?—[Official Report, 15 November 2010; Vol. 518, c. 663.]
Will he set out precisely from where those savings in the legal aid budget would come?
Sadiq Khan
I have done that before and I shall do so again in a while—[Interruption.] I am happy to answer that question.
The Justice Secretary’s remand policies demonstrate how budget cutting is taking priority over the best interests of our justice system. Defendants will not be remanded in custody when there is “no real prospect” of a custodial sentence being handed down. The Government’s victims commissioner, Louise Casey, says:
“Victims’ groups during consultation have expressed alarm”
at those proposals. The Magistrates Association and the Sentencing Council have also expressed opposition. The Sentencing Council states that
“in some cases it will not be clear until the conclusion of the trial/the preparation of the pre-sentence report whether the offence in fact merits a custodial sentence.”
The council reminds us that
“The primary reason for remanding a defendant in custody is that he or she will fail to attend court”;
or that there is a “risk of further offending”; and/or that
“there may be a good reason to believe that the defendant will interfere with witnesses”.
Does the Justice Secretary not realise that that change is likely to deter witnesses and victims from coming forward?
Lords Justices Thomas and Goldring both raised the genuine concern that
“the decision whether or not to grant bail is quite separate from the decision as to the eventual sentence”,
yet they have been ignored. In this Chamber last week, when ditching his 50% sentence reduction proposal, the Justice Secretary said that he had
“paid particular regard to the legal opinions that”
he
“was getting from serious members of the judiciary and others”.—[Official Report, 21 June 2011; Vol. 530, c. 169.]
It is disappointing that he has ignored not only Lady Justice Hale, but the concerns of the senior judiciary and others on the remand policy, and that he has not removed it from the Bill.
Indeterminate sentences for public protection are notable by their absence from the Bill—that is another example of the shambles that the Justice Secretary is in. He has talked of the need to reform the system of IPPs, the use of which had mushroomed well beyond the original purpose. IPPs have a role as they were originally envisaged, and I acknowledge the efforts of my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) to reform them.
This Government proposed a new approach to IPPs in their Green Paper, which were subsequently consulted on, as has been said. They favoured raising the minimum tariff to a 10-year determinate sentence before an IPP can be enforced—a length of sentence beyond that handed down for violent and sexual offences including rape and assault. We were opposed to that. However, there is nothing whatever in the Bill about that. The Justice Secretary today confirmed that he will be getting rid of IPPs, but he has also announced an urgent review of them. Has he not pre-empted the outcome of his review? My right hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale East (Paul Goggins) raised the interesting point about learning lessons from Northern Ireland, but the Justice Secretary will not do so, because he has already made his mind up, putting cost over the protection of the public.
Labour’s position on IPPs is clear: offenders must be punished and reformed. They must not pose a risk to the public and proper due process must be followed before their release, supported by courses and programmes and an effectively resourced Parole Board, to allow rehabilitation to take place. We will not accept plans that water down the protection given to the public by IPPs. We believe that there is a continuing role for IPPs. They should be reserved for very serious and violent offenders—those who are the biggest risk to the public—as was their original purpose.
The Justice Secretary’s solution appears to be mandatory life sentences for all those deemed to be a serious danger to the public if released. He has no idea if that will lead to the prison population going up or down, and no idea what he will do about those who have served their minimum tariff who are on an IPP. Why is he so unwilling to invest in programmes, courses and the Parole Board to address offender behaviour?
The absence of IPPs from the Bill has created further questions about the Secretary of State’s budget. As a result, the impact assessment is incomplete. Moreover, the Prime Minister last week appeared to announce more mandatory life sentences and longer determinate sentences, and that serious offenders would serve at least two thirds of their sentence. However, those proposals—those new policies—are absent from the Bill. Given that one of the causes of the backlog in IPPs is a shortage of suitable courses and resources for the Parole Board, how does he expect the two-third sentence proposals to avoid running into exactly the same resource issues as IPPs? Utter shambles!
Legal aid is another important issue. Our legal aid system was established as a fundamental pillar of the post-war welfare state. Clement Attlee’s Government rightly recognised that equality in the face of the law should not be undermined by a lack of finance. Therefore, it is bitterly disappointing that the Bill has made only minimal changes to the cuts proposed in the Green Paper. On the day when the Green Paper was published, I accepted that the Opposition, too, would have made cuts to the legal aid budget. However, I asked the Justice Secretary to look again at the areas he was targeting. He has not done so.
As a result, the weight of opposition to the proposals remains huge. He is damned by the numerous campaigning groups representing some of the most vulnerable people in society, the 31 charities that wrote last week to The Times in protest, the Law Society, the Bar Council and other members of the judiciary, and yet he has ignored their concerns—[Interruption.] I will let hon. Members know right now the Opposition’s view of legal aid. We oppose the cuts to social welfare legal aid—the kind of early-stage advice provided by law centres and citizens advice bureaux on debt, housing, welfare benefits and education issues—because of the disproportionate way that they will affect the most needy in our society. The result, as campaigning group Justice has said, will be the “economic cleansing” of our civil courts. Some estimates suggest that more than 700,000 people will have their access to justice taken away.
That is compounded by the disproportionate impact that the proposals will have on women, in particular because of the definition of domestic violence. Once again, this Government are hitting women the hardest.
Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that one problem the Government have so far failed to address is ensuring the sustainability of the law firms, centres and practices across the country? It is not just a question of individuals losing their service; those centres and that provision will be undermined, and in many cases, face collapse.
Sadiq Khan
My hon. Friend is right to remind the House that if we are not careful, the country will become an advice desert for the poor and the vulnerable as a result of that policy.
The previous Labour Government always strove to protect social welfare legal aid. Our March 2010 proposals, which have been strangely ignored by this Government, would have generated savings sufficient to protect social welfare legal aid. The Justice Secretary’s changes will have a huge impact on the viability of many law centres, CABs and high street practices up and down the country that do an enormous amount to provide access to justice for some of our most deprived citizens. Do hon. Members know what the irony of that is? It is that this is the time when they need that advice most. A whole swathe of society is losing the ability to exercise its legal rights, with women particularly affected. The Lord Chief Justice has warned that the proposals will damage access to justice, and Citizens Advice has warned that the cuts will leave hundreds of thousands with nowhere to turn for help and has demonstrated the savings to the taxpayer down the line from early intervention: £1 of legal expenditure on housing advice will save the state £2.34, and on benefits advice the saving is £8.80. So there is a moral as well as an economic case for not cutting in this way. As the Justice Secretary knows, the Lord Chief Justice warned that legal aid cuts risked a surge in litigants in person, with all the associated increase in stress and costs.
Sadiq Khan
The Minister will have a chance to wind up the debate later, but we now have less than four hours remaining, so I will not give way.
The hon. Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) mentioned clause 12, which is of real concern and seeks to loosen the systems that guarantee free access to a solicitor upon arrest, which were established in the 1980s, when the Justice Secretary was in government—although it was a Labour idea—on the back of a number of high-profile miscarriages of justice. However, he has failed to justify to the House why he is seeking the change in clause 12, which we think should be deleted from the Bill. When the Minister winds up, I hope he will say that it will be deleted before we reach our deliberations in Committee.
The Government’s proposals on civil litigation are driven primarily by their zeal to fix the so-called compensation culture. However, by cherry-picking the Jackson report recommendations, the Bill runs the risk of undermining access to justice, which is something that the introduction of no win, no fee sought to guarantee. We will scrutinise those clauses closely.
Sadiq Khan
I will not.
The Justice Secretary never had a credible strategy for achieving his rehabilitation revolution. His plans are fatally flawed and always were, and he has demonstrated that he is not on the side of victims. His use of language on rape sentencing, his original 50% sentence reduction proposals and the reduction in the use of remand in custody show that in no sense does he understand that victims and witnesses need to have confidence in the justice system and feel that it is safe in his hands. By taking from judges the ability to remand people in custody in cases they think appropriate, and by abolishing IPPs, he has not explained how he will give judges the tools they need to keep communities safe and to cut crime.
Oliver Heald
Will the right hon. Gentleman comment on the move towards more mediation in family courts? It is an important area and something that should be welcomed. I do not know whether he would agree, but it is one of the Bill’s central provisions.
Sadiq Khan
In the short time left to me, I am happy to welcome that proposal. As the hon. Gentleman will know, however, we need investment in training mediators. It is all well and good trying to divert people away from the courts, but we hope that the Government will train more mediators.
The Government’s figures do not add up. Overall, 10,000 members of prison and probation staff will lose their jobs, yet the Justice Secretary expects much more for less: more rehabilitation and more treatment for those with mental health problems and drug dependency. But how will that be funded? A chunk of his savings was due to stem from a lower prison population, but given how the Bill has been filleted of its ill-thought-out sentencing proposals, where does he think the prison population will be in two years? Will it be higher or lower? I look forward to hearing the Government’s ideas.
The debacle that is this Bill has shown up the Government’s justice policy for what it is—incoherent, inconsistent and obsessed with cutting costs. It is a shoddy Bill that does not focus on what cuts crime, protects the public, reforms offenders and puts victims first, nor will it continue to ensure access to justice for many of the most vulnerable in society, particularly women. The Justice Secretary has failed to accept the alternatives offered to make savings to the legal aid bill and has stuck to his original plans, which will have a devastating impact on the most vulnerable in society. No doubt many Government Members will speak in favour of the Bill. I gently remind them, however, that last month, when we debated the 50% sentencing discount, many of them were marched up to the top of the hill by the Grand Old Duke of Rushcliffe, only for a humiliating march back down again a couple of weeks later. No doubt Government Members now regret making all those loyal contributions. I hope they will think carefully about how they vote tonight. One thing is for sure, however: we intend to vote against a Second Reading for this shoddy Bill.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. There is an eight-minute limit on Back-Bench contributions, but clearly hon. Members do not have to take eight minutes. There is injury time for two interventions, but they do not have to take any of those either.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
The Bill deals with two important issues on which the Justice Committee has reported. Sentencing was at the core of our report on justice reinvestment towards the end of the previous Parliament, and it has been the subject of several reports on Sentencing Council guidelines. The Government’s legal aid proposals were also examined in detail in our March report.
The content of the Bill was originally the product of two major and conflicting factors: the need to respond to the financial crisis and the Lord Chancellor’s determination to make the criminal justice system more effective in preventing crime and more cost-effective in the use of resources. We recognise the financial circumstances and we welcome the willingness to think radically. Recently, however, the Bill got ambushed, and some of its content and a lot of its presentation—not to mention its title—were the subject of No. 10’s preoccupation with getting favourable tabloid headlines. Evidence-based policy does not tend to prevail in those circumstances. It is not clear, for example, that the knife crime provisions will add anything to the existing practice of the courts, which take threats involving knives very seriously, and rightly so. Personally I am not so concerned about the dropping of the 50% discounts, which had nothing to do with encouraging appropriate sentencing. The problem is, however, that, although it was unlikely ever to achieve the £100 million of savings that were canvassed for it, the Department is now expected to find alternative savings to replace them.
Thankfully, the baby has not been thrown out with the bathwater. The Lord Chancellor is still pursuing his objective of making community sentences strong and effective enough to win more confidence from both the judiciary and the public. Furthermore, payment by results will, as part of the reform of the probation service’s vital work, continue—we will be reporting on that subject shortly. We are also getting rid of the disastrous indeterminate sentences and replacing them with life sentences in the most serious cases.
The Bill could, however, have begun a process leading to the commissioning of prison and probation services more locally and by the same body. Until we do that, we will not encourage rational sentencing. Resources will not be available for things such as drug treatment and intensive supervision if they are automatically taken up by the constant expansion of the prison system. Members have a responsibility to use money effectively to prevent crime—that is what we are engaged in—and not to give people the answer that seems the most obvious one. We have a responsibility to prevent them from suffering from crime in the future by spending money as effectively as we can.
The Committee recognises the need to contain and reduce spending on the world’s most expensive legal aid system, but it has serious concerns about some of the groups affected. We suggested alternative ways of making savings, including better court and case management and restrictions on legal aid for judicial review—we welcome the Government’s moves on aspects of that latter point. We were particularly concerned that citizens advice bureaux and neighbourhood law centres would be flooded by demands for legal advice without the resources to help, so we welcome the Government’s initial response to the transition fund and debt advice. However, more will be needed. We welcome the agreement to secure savings in the wastefully inefficient administration of the Legal Services Commission, and we agree with the wider objective of discouraging unnecessary litigation. We are also glad that the Government have responded to our concerns about the definition of domestic violence.
The Government have missed an opportunity in not taking up our recommendation on the “polluter pays” principle. If Departments faced a financial penalty for having too many decisions overturned on appeal, they would change their behaviour and public money would be saved. The Government’s response concentrates on individual cases. This is an overall proposal under which, if Departments rose above a certain threshold, they would have to pay money out of their budgets. That is the only way we will effect the behavioural change and get the right decisions first time.
As I have indicated, I have particular concerns about clinical negligence cases in which determining liability is a complex problem, particularly those concerning children with serious handicaps arising from birth injury. The Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly) wrote to me about this and said that the Department was discussing with the national health service litigation authority and other stakeholders how the commissioning of reports could be improved with joint reports, and the Secretary of State has also referred to that. However, I understand from my discussions with the NHSLA that that is not proceeding or is not proving to be practical. I hope that the Minister, when he winds up, will explain what is happening on that front. The other element in the Government’s attempt to deal with this problem was retaining after-the-event insurance for cases of this kind, but it is not clear to those who understand the system that there would be a viable market in after-the-event insurance in such a narrow field, when it has been abolished in other areas.
The Bill introduces some of Lord Justice Jackson’s proposals but not others. The proposals are a package, so if bits of them are missed out there is a real danger that they will not achieve the intended effect.
Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend share my concern, which has also been expressed by the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), about the absence of proposals on referral fees, which have been properly described as a “scandal”? They were a scandal at the time of the miners’ compensation scandal, which resulted in 27 law firms being disciplined. Does he think that that is a missing part of the Bill?
Sir Alan Beith
Yes I do, and I was just coming to that as my final point. First, just let me complete my earlier point by saying that the absence of qualified one-way cost shifting leaves an imbalance in the implementation of the Jackson proposals. It is not even clear from the Bill precisely what the Government are doing.
Finally, let me address what I, too, have described as the scandal of referral fees under which insurance companies and some other bodies, such as trade unions, make money from selling the details and claims of the victims of accidents. It will not be enough merely to ban referral fees, because the Government and the industry must deal with a system of fees that has a fundamental fault. If there is a system of fees in which a lawyer can still make a profit from a relatively small claim having paid hundreds of pounds for the privilege of pursuing that claim, then we have to address the fixed costs as well as the referral fees.
Sir Alan Beith
I must conclude, so I shall give way only to the Secretary of State.
Mr Clarke
The reason why we did not deal with that part of Jackson was because the Legal Services Board had taken it on itself to review the future of referral fees. We now have its report and the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), and I are considering referral fees. I take on board what my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans) and the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) have been saying.
Sir Alan Beith
I am grateful to the Secretary of State. I know no one who agrees with the Legal Services Board’s conclusions, but I hope that the matter will be considered urgently to see whether the Bill can be used to complete the process of dealing with what is undoubtedly a scandal, which puts up costs for our constituents.
The Bill is part of a necessary process of reform in both sentencing and legal aid, but it needs a great deal of work before it leaves this House and a great deal of monitoring when it comes into force.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. Before I call the next speaker let me say that a number of Members have complained about the near-sub-zero temperatures in the Chamber—I understand that it is a lovely day outside. I have informed the doorkeepers and this will be rectified.
Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)
In his closing peroration, the Lord Chancellor said that he wished he had been able to stay on as Home Secretary for longer than he did in the Administration in the early 1990s, so as to introduce a measure of this kind. I have to say to Conservative Members that they are very lucky he did not stay on for longer than the year he was there.
Mr Straw
I am glad to have the approbation of the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) on that.
When he was the Home Secretary, the Lord Chancellor was the last in line of a number of very complacent Home Secretaries who had allowed crime simply to rise and rise. It doubled under the Conservatives, as Michael Howard pointed out, and reached its peak under the current Lord Chancellor. Nothing that he did then, and nothing that he is proposing today, will do anything to make people safer or to cut crime. Indeed, I warn Conservative Members, for whom I have great affection, that in the coming months, if the Bill goes through, they will face—day after day, week after week—stories in the newspapers in which judges and magistrates complain publicly that defendant X or defendant Y should have been remanded in custody awaiting trial but that the courts no longer have any power on that.
I say to the Lord Chancellor, who has some experience of the criminal trial process, that the provisions in clause 73 and schedule 10 regarding restrictions on bail are wholly irrational and take no account whatever of the way in which courts and defendants operate. The court is not going to know whether it needs to send someone to prison until it has heard the full case and the mitigation. If Parliament lays down rules regarding the prospect of a sentence, how is the court to translate that into a real prospect of a prison sentence? What will happen in a case in which there is a low likelihood of a sentence on conviction and the defendant simply refuses to turn up in court? The Secretary of State was obviously completely unaware of the contents of paragraph 5 of schedule 10—I am glad that he is looking at it now—which makes it absolutely clear that even if the defendant fails to appear in court and is arrested, they cannot be remanded in custody unless the court has come to a prior decision that there is a real prospect of their getting a period of imprisonment at the end of the case. That is mad, and the right hon. and learned Gentleman must look at it again.
Simon Reevell (Dewsbury) (Con)
I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman has considered sub-paragraph (b), which makes it perfectly clear that if someone has been convicted of an offence in the proceedings, which would include a bail offence, the provision barring the grant of bail does not apply, so if somebody failed to surrender, they would be dealt with as they are now in their absence, and they could be remanded in custody when arrested by the police. The same qualifying sub-paragraph is present on page 168, which deals with bail in other circumstances.
Mr Straw
No, of course I will not. The explanatory memorandum makes exactly the same point.
Let me address the issue of indeterminate sentences for public protection. I entirely endorse what my right hon. Friend the Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) has said from the Front Bench. The Secretary of State made one of his sweeping statements, saying that those sentences have been discredited. No, they have not. Who has discredited them? He has, because he has been forced to save money on indeterminate public protection sentences having had to surrender the 50% cut in the bail discount, as he well knows. IPPs have worked.
The Secretary of State comprehensively failed to answer the hon. Member for Shipley yesterday, when the hon. Gentleman said that the reoffending rate for IPPs has been spectacularly successful—of the 1,449 people released, only 11 have reoffended. The Secretary of State laughs, but what we are dealing with here is the most serious offenders who, under the law, are expected to show that they would go straight, if they were released. He is laughing, but the laugh will be on the other side of the Conservatives’ faces when and if his measures go forward and people are released before it is safe for them to be released and they commit further offences. He will be the person to blame for that.
Mr Kenneth Clarke
The right hon. Gentleman is referring to the 200 people who have been released, but more than 6,000 of them are still in prison with no idea when or if they are going to be released. Their reoffending rate is, I agree, very low, but that is not a justification for the system. The vast majority of respondents to our consultation regard it as something of a disgrace that the measure has been put on to the statute book and is working in this way.
Mr Straw
I am afraid that I have had my ration of interventions.
Let me move on to the proposals for civil litigation reform. I established the Jackson review and fully endorsed its conclusions in January 2010. I welcome the fact that this Government are implementing it, but they are doing so only in part.
I want to pick up on the points made by the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) and the hon. Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans) about referral fees and associated matters. As colleagues will know, on Monday I published the results of an investigation into what I can only describe as a racket in the motor insurance industry in which almost everyone in the chain, from recovery firms, claims companies, medical experts to insurers themselves, is paying between £200 and £1,000 in referral fees. Everybody in this chain is on the take, and the total is running into billions.
Since Monday, I have been overwhelmed by e-mails, which I am very happy to supply to the Lord Chancellor if he wishes, from members of the public and professionals with even more horrifying detail about the dodgy practices, frauds and near-frauds that are now endemic in this industry, including one from a lady who explained that she “had had an argument with her bicycle”. She was the only person present at the time, she went to hospital and ever since she has been pestered to make a claim.
Mr Straw
No, I am sorry.
One solicitor wrote to me saying that referral fees are no more than a “form of legalised bribery”. He is right. They are the parasites eating away at the integrity of the whole of the motor insurance industry and associated professions, including lawyers. Their effect is to drive up costs, and therefore premiums, and actively to encourage individuals—
Mr Straw
I am sorry—I am running out of time.
Referrals actively encourage individuals to try their luck in making claims for fictitious or wholly exaggerated injuries. I accept, and do so publicly, that that comes as a result of the Access to Justice Act 1999, which was based on recommendations from Lord Woolf. It gave rise to expectations that have not been met. I was clear when I established Jackson, endorsed it and set up an immediate consultation process that the system needed root-and-branch reform. I am perfectly happy to accept that.
I was glad to hear the Secretary of State’s words about that. With respect to the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), however, referral fees are not, as he said yesterday, a small part of the problem; they are a central part of the problem. Removing them is not a magic bullet, and other actions will also need to be taken. Unless he deals with referral fees, among other things, as well as changing the whole system, he will not deal with the extraordinary abuse that is taking place.
There are other changes that I ask the Secretary of State to consider. First, there could be legislation, possibly in this Bill, to prohibit the payment of damages for so-called whiplash injuries, save where there is other objective evidence of serious injury, as other jurisdictions have already done. The regulators, the Information Commissioner and Ofcom should crack down hard on the patent abuse of individuals’ personal data. I have taken up the issue, and I hope that, as the Secretary of State responsible, he will do so, too.
There should be an urgent review of the effectiveness, or rather the lack of it, of the regulation of claims management companies, as established under the Compensation Act 2006. That, too, is not working as effectively as it should. In Blackburn and in many other urban areas, honest drivers with impeccable driving records are facing huge increases in premiums, not because of any risk that they have any control over but because of the level of claims by other people. It is a form of collective punishment, and it needs to be outlawed.
Over the past 20 years, as a result of taxpayer investment in safer roads and driver investment in safer and more secure cars, there has been a dramatic fall in the number of accidents and the number of thefts from vehicles. There should not be a steep increase in the insurance premium—instead, there should be a fall. It is time for major reforms so that, at long last, motorists can benefit from this investment.
Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)
As a duty solicitor, I declare an interest in—as in the title of the Bill—legal aid, sentencing and punishment of offenders.
It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw). He reminds me of many a client I have represented in Edmonton police station who fails to accept any responsibility despite the compelling case against them. He fails to accept responsibility despite the fact that two thirds of people reoffend when they come out of prison and most of our prisoners are lying idle in prison. Despite the plethora—the incontinence—of criminal justice legislation, all of which he probably had a part in as Home Secretary and Justice Secretary, victims still feel a lack of proper confidence in the justice system, but he does not accept any responsibility for that.
During the 13 years of the Labour Government, there were more than 20 criminal justice Bills, some of which I had the opportunity to scrutinise. I gave my maiden speech on one of those occasions—the debate on the Violent Crime Reduction Bill. That was in many ways one of the messaging Bills that were very much part of the new Labour project; they simply sent out a message without having any real effect. We also had many a Christmas tree Bill. For example, one of their last Bills, the Criminal Justice and Immigration Bill, had many pieces of additional legislation tacked on to it as it went through its stages. That is another danger of over-legislation.
The shadow Justice Secretary criticised the Green Paper, consultation and further consultation on the IPP issue. What is he complaining about? Does he want us to move quickly to legislate and run the risks that we have seen before? We have a litany of unimplemented 2003 legislation that we are now having to deal with. That is part of the legacy. That legacy is not only a failure in our prison system and criminal justice system, but a failure of legislation. The right hon. Member for Blackburn and other Opposition Members have to accept responsibility for that.
One issue that will be raised in the consultation is self-defence and defending one’s property. The right hon. Gentleman and others have been involved in discussions about sending out a message on that issue. I encourage him to read the case of R v. Keane or the recent case of R v. McGrath. Those show that his efforts at messaging and putting more baubles on Christmas tree Bills have not made a jot of difference in terms of changing the existing legislation that applies in that area. We need to learn those lessons well, and this Government are doing that, because it has taken 13 months for us to introduce this criminal justice Bill. I hope that we will not come back next year with another criminal justice Bill, and that we will scrutinise this properly, making any necessary changes and then moving forward.
What we need in our justice system is to get back to the three R’s—retribution, restoration and rehabilitation, which need to be properly balanced. The Bill is not the whole story in relation to what the Government are saying about criminal justice. We would not want that. We do not show our card on the basis of how many laws we pass and the extent of this legislation, for example. Our approach is to do with our intervening early to stop many of these people getting involved in the criminal justice system. It is to do with the way we are dealing with drugs and ensuring that many people more recover instead of getting parked up on methadone. That all matters greatly, as does more structural reform.
In some areas, such as youth justice, the Bill does not have a great number of clauses. There is a recognition of the progress that has been made, including the youth rehabilitation order. That needs to be properly implemented.
One area where there needs to be retribution is knife crime, as I am sure we all agree. In our manifesto, there was a clear commitment to it, so I welcome the intention of clause 113 to make it crystal clear that anyone who threatens with a knife will receive a custodial sentence. I welcome that intention, but I know—sadly all too well in Enfield, where we have had seven fatalities in the past three years and one in the past month, all at the hands of someone with a knife—that any possession of a weapon is in effect threatening. Even if the person possessing the knife does not intend to threaten, he or someone else could well become a victim of its use if he gets involved in any disturbance later.
Nick de Bois
My hon. Friend knows that my constituents in Enfield North will very much welcome the mandatory proposals on using a knife in a threatening way, but is he aware that, of those cases followed up involving individuals carrying a knife or using a knife offensively, more than 30% involved people under 18, and that the legislation before us will not apply to such people? Perhaps that is something we should press for.
Mr Burrowes
My hon. Friend may be making an early bid to be on the Public Bill Committee, but we certainly need to recognise, particularly in areas such as Enfield, that such behaviour is prevalent, that sadly all too often those under 18 are involved in gangs and possess knives, and that clause 113 does not apply to them.
Philip Davies
Does my hon. Friend also accept that the current guidelines for addressing threatening behaviour with a knife state that a magistrates court should refer the case to a Crown court because the magistrates court is not considered to have sufficient powers to punish such people? A six-month penalty could easily become a maximum, rather than a minimum, sentence for the offence.
Mr Burrowes
My hon. Friend makes the point that the current guidance states that such people should receive a serious custodial penalty, and the clause tries to reaffirm that in statute, but we need to ensure that, notwithstanding the worthy intentions of the clause, we do not downgrade the simple possession offence; otherwise a clever lawyer might use it to put in an alternative plea of simple possession, which lends itself to a lesser, non-custodial penalty when compared with the aggravated offence. Ministers may want to pass a note to the Sentencing Council to make it clear that the current guidance on simple possession should remain intact.
I also recognise that there are retributive elements in the Bill. There is the important extension of curfews, which my hon. Friends will very much welcome, and we need to recognise that there are more tools in the box for dealing with matters on a community basis and retributively in order to ensure that liberty is restricted and for a longer period.
The second element of the justice system should be a proper restorative element—the basic requirement of justice to make amends as far as possible. Victims should be central to our justice system, and I hate it when people refer to a victimless crime. It greatly concerns me, because when I see what is happening in Enfield, in particular, and elsewhere, I do not see a victimless crime. That is why I welcome the clause that will ensure a positive and much stronger duty to order compensation for any loss or damage, for personal injury and, indeed, for bereavement or funeral payments.
We all know of cases in which people have waited months and months to hear about a claim to the Criminal Injuries Compensation Board for funeral payments, and the Bill will give much greater access to, and opportunity for, compensation involving people who are victims of the most serious crimes. Similarly, there needs to be proper reparation and compensation for minor crimes.
Currently, the compensation order system is seriously underused. Only 18.1% of offenders in 2010 were ordered to pay compensation. That must change and, as a result of this Bill, it will, but I encourage Ministers to ensure that the duty on all courts extends to reparation, so that not just financial but other means of restorative justice are recognised.
Often, when the door is shut on the prisoner, the victim is shut out as well, so we need to ensure that when prisoners are inside they feel a proper sense of responsibility and do not forget that there is a victim. That is why we are implementing the Prisoner Earnings Act. It was enacted in 1996, and ironically we have had a plethora of legislation since, but that good piece of legislation, which Hartley Booth introduced, is now and quite properly going to be implemented.
The Act recognises that we are not going to accept the answer that I received from the Home Office, when I asked it why it was not going to introduce the legislation in 2007. The Home Office said, “We don’t think that prisoners will be able to find the work or work enough to make this viable.” We are not accepting that, because this Government have a much greater ambition.
We are not going to let prisoners sit idle in their cells; they will do proper work purposefully, and their earnings will go into a victims’ fund. The expectation is for £1 million: £1 million of ambition that the previous Government did not have; £1 million that will and should go into the hands of victims. We need to ensure proper enforcement, too, so that the current outstanding compensation payments of some £152 million reach the right people.
We need to ensure that there is retribution, restoration and rehabilitation. The rehabilitation revolution will go much further and deeper than simply this Bill, because it will ensure that we have payment by results. The right hon. Member for Blackburn talked about outcomes—from a previous Government who were all about process, targets and messaging. Well, we are into outcomes, but we are into proper outcomes, so we will have not just the Peterborough example, although that is welcome. Our ambitions are much greater than simply to introduce a social impact bond in Peterborough.
Mr Burrowes
There is not time, unfortunately.
We will ensure that that is done across the country—paying people to get into work, to stop reoffending and to ensure that they get off drugs. We are driving through a much more ambitious agenda of recovery to stop this everlasting cycle of criminality—being on drugs, committing crime to feed a drugs habit, going to prison and so on. We will break that cycle of crime.
There are concerns, whether it is magistrates wanting to extend the period of imprisonment to the maximum of 12 months or on legal aid, but this is a good Bill that—
Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)
This Bill is a shambles and so is the Lord Chancellor’s approach to crime. Far from being a significant reforming measure, it is an incoherent fragment. The Opposition admire the panache of the Lord Chancellor, who is a much-loved and robust performer and who has sought to rise above the U-turns forced on him by a Prime Minister who is more interested in headlines than in reform, but it does not wash.
The Justice Secretary should take particular note of the criticism from his Back Benchers and the significant criticism from the Chair of the Justice Committee. The right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) kindly said that he thought that the baby was not totally being thrown out with the bathwater, but I am not sure about that and I am certainly worried about the health of the baby.
When the Secretary of State was Home Secretary, he presided over a crime wave. He also offended virtually every profession in sight, especially the police, by the cavalier way in which he fulfilled his duties. This Bill is a shambles, his strategy is in tatters and everyone is in confusion. The main problem is that he has such a piecemeal approach to the issue. The Justice Committee’s report, “Cutting crime: the case for justice reinvestment”, states:
“A piecemeal approach to justice reinvestment is unlikely to work and a holistic approach to reform is necessary, with a very clear and explicit statement of the purpose of the whole system against which organisational aims can be tested to assess their contribution to cutting the extent and seriousness of offending and re-offending.”
This Bill fails that test.
In that report, we also called for better use of resources and a focus by every part of the criminal justice system on cutting offending, because that is what victims want. We keep being told that the views of victims are important, but more than not to have become a victim in the first place, they want to know that they will not become a victim again in the future. Therefore, the purpose of the criminal justice system—and of sentencing—is to ensure that victims are protected from further offending.
Let us cut to the chase—cutting the number of people in prison may save money, but cutting prison numbers to save money is to approach the problem from the wrong end. There is only one acceptable reason for cutting prison numbers, and that is that offending and reoffending have fallen; fewer people are becoming victims; there are fewer offenders who need to be incarcerated; and our streets and homes are safer.
It is a matter of some pride to me that the number of places in young offender institutions has been cut for precisely those reasons. As a result of the work of the Youth Justice Board and the youth offending teams, fewer individuals are reoffending and so fewer places are needed. That reduction in numbers leads to immediate savings, but it is even more significant given that time in custody often acts as a training course in criminal activity for young people. So the long-term benefit of keeping people out of youth offending and preventing reoffending patterns is enormous. That makes it very odd that the Secretary of State will do away with the Youth Justice Board and I urge him to reconsider. I know that he is taking many activities inside the Ministry of Justice—and I am glad that he is encouraging the continuation of those activities and the youth offending teams—but he is taking in people who, as part of an independent body, have acted as the touchstone for success in that aspect of reducing reoffending.
Mr Burrowes
The right hon. Gentleman obviously has great experience and was no doubt the architect of the first such legislation in 1997. He will be interested to know that reoffending rates were very high over the 13 years to 2010, and that is something for which the previous Government should be held accountable. Does he not welcome the fact that in this Bill there is now provision for supervision of prisoners who have a sentence of less than 12 months? That has never happened in the past. Giving supervision to offenders after they are released will no doubt help to reduce reoffending levels.
Alun Michael
I have said for a long time that we should do more to ensure that short sentences work and that they do not accelerate offending. In this legislation, there are things to be welcomed, but the big picture is not bright enough for us to welcome the Bill as a whole.
Yesterday, in answer to my question, the Justice Secretary said:
“The Sentencing Council is already under a duty to provide information about the effectiveness of sentencing practice”.—[Official Report, 28 June 2011; Vol. 530, c. 738.]
Unless there is a clear focus on reducing reoffending and ensuring that that is understood by sentencers, the Bill will not be effective. That is why I call on the Justice Secretary to change his approach and put a real focus on the work of the Sentencing Council not just to provide information about the effectiveness of sentencing practice but to ensure that sentencing practice is driven in ways in which it can increase the success of the system.
The work of the Youth Justice Board and the youth offending teams shows what can be done if there is a clear and unremitting focus on cutting offending and reoffending. Why not use a new mechanism to focus on the 18 to 25 age group? We are seeing a reduction in the numbers of 18 to 25-year-olds who are reoffending because of the success of intervention with young offenders. Why not learn that lesson and apply it properly to that reduced cohort so that we can further drive down the numbers who reoffend?
The Justice Secretary has admitted that the criminal justice system is fragmented; it does not work as a single system. A series of agencies operate to their own objectives and are held to account for different purposes. Bring it all together. Make it coherent. Let us have some coherent legislation from the Justice Secretary. The criminal justice system should pay attention to the Select Committee’s recommendations on justice reinvestment. The whole of the system should focus on reducing reoffending.
Victims want to feel that they are less likely to be offended against in the future. The Home Affairs Committee heard evidence from people who had been involved in restorative justice and it found that it actually works. When offenders are faced with their offending, they are less likely to reoffend. They are made to engage in relationships, which they have often failed to do in the past and which may have led them into offending in the first place. They do not see the victim as another person.
Although it is essential that we do something about what has been described as relational justice, there is nothing about it in the legislation. Too often, it is low down the agenda. The possibility is there but we are not driving it through the system and getting the benefits. I appeal to the Secretary of State to push relational justice up his agenda.
I also appeal to the Secretary of State to work with the Home Secretary to derive greater success from crime reduction partnerships, which again have been important, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) said in his contribution a few moments ago. We have been successful in reducing crime, but we can go further and go faster if the right mechanisms are used. In this regard, I commend the violence reduction project in Cardiff, which, since I last referred to it in this Chamber, has been endorsed by the World Health Organisation and is the subject of an article in The British Medical Journal. Such acclaim shows that the approach in Cardiff has worked. It has driven down violent crime by 25% more than the cohort of cities with which it can properly be compared. The project works; it reduces offences and protects people from becoming victims. That is what needs to be put at the centre of our criminal justice system.
I regret that we have a Home Secretary who has failed to defend her budget and is imposing cuts on the police that are too deep, too soon and disgracefully front-loaded, and a Secretary of State for Justice who, by his failure to apply clarity and logic to the challenge of justice reinvestment and effectiveness in cutting crime, is doomed to fail. Sadly, it is the victims and not he who will pay the penalty for that.
Mrs Helen Grant (Maidstone and The Weald) (Con)
I was a legal aid family lawyer for 23 years before becoming an MP, and my husband continues to run our firm in Croydon. I declare an interest in the debate.
The Government’s plans to reform legal aid are brave and bold. The consultation has been taken seriously and important concessions have been made, but I continue to have some serious concerns. The plans rely on people being able to represent themselves, but what about people with learning difficulties, limited English or mental health problems? Those people cannot help themselves; they cannot do it. The plans rely on our hard-pressed voluntary sector dealing with the fallout from the legal sector, but our not-for-profit organisations are already overstretched and under-resourced.
Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that many citizens advice bureaux—such as my own, South Hams—receive 55% to 65% of their funding from legal aid and are concerned about the time frame with the proposals being introduced in October?
Mrs Grant
My hon. Friend makes a good point, and change must be paced. Not for profit does not mean “No funds, please.” Those organisations still need cash just to stand still, let alone to deal with the massive glut of cases that will fall into their laps, but I am reassured and encouraged by what my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Justice said about directing an additional sum of some £20 million towards them. That is very positive indeed.
The plans rely on judges, magistrates and tribunal chairmen having the time to assist numerous litigants in person, but I can honestly tell hon. Members that that time does not exist, because judges already have back-to-back lists. Delays in court will become even worse. The plans rely on less dependency on legal proceedings, but as I have said before in the House, mediation is no panacea. It frequently fails, especially in family cases, where there is often an imbalance of power between the parties. Where will all the mediators come from? Who will pay for them?
Oliver Heald
I am closely following my hon. Friend’s sincere and important remarks, but does she not agree that the advantage of mediation is that people are brought together and that disputes are reduced in circumstances of family life, thus achieving something worth while in itself? Mediation is the right way to go, even though I accept that some cases will also need to be litigated.
Mrs Grant
The problem is that not all cases can be mediated, and the difficult ones—the ones that we are dealing with—usually end up in court anyway.
The plans have telephone advice as an alternative to a trusted and recommended solicitor, but the law is complicated. The law can be an ass, and it is not easy to understand. Having tried to explain maintenance pending suit or some other aspect of the Matrimonial Causes Act 1973 to a frightened and vulnerable litigant, I can tell hon. Members that it makes clients feel frustrated and confused and leaves solicitors feeling quite inadequate.
The plans badly impact on women, especially in the categories of family, education and housing law. Some 75% of domestic violence victims are women, 90% of single parents are women, and 97% of those who are eligible for child maintenance are women. Women are more likely to be in non-unionised jobs, and men are more likely to be financially better off and able to pay privately.
Over the years, my firm has looked after about 14,000 clients in south London, Surrey and west Kent. The family profile that I describe is, sadly, not unusual. One mother presented with some learning difficulties and a history of self-harm and drug abuse, but says that she is now clean. She has three children, all girls, with three different fathers. The father of the eldest daughter sought a residence order and a contact order. Mother and daughter were resistant in view of the father’s history of bullying and drunkenness. There were no previous injunction orders, but many police call-outs. All the girls were having problems at school, and the middle daughter had been diagnosed with ADHD—attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. The school had threatened suspension due to disruptive behaviour. The mother was on income support and was being chased by loan sharks due to debt. She was feeling suicidal and was on antidepressants. All the children were on the child protection register.
When I took instructions from that lady, judging by her physical appearance and demeanour, I thought that she was about 50. It was only when I asked her for her date of birth that I realised that she was just 25 years old. Under the current plans, that highly vulnerable woman would not be entitled to help with residence and contact applications, debt problems or her children’s educational difficulties. That is what family life is like for many in our country. Those are the people who rely on the family courts and legal aid to resolve their problems. Tragically, the children growing up in such families are watching and learning bad behaviour, have absent boundaries, and are breeding future generations of victims and perpetrators. It is a vicious circle.
Legal aid cost £500 million in 1982. The cost is £2 billion today. I make no case for ring-fencing from the cuts, and I see a genuine need for reform.
Mr Kenneth Clarke
I have a high regard for my hon. Friend’s expertise on the issue, which greatly exceeds mine as a result of her practice. The case that she makes is moving, but surely such things do not lend themselves to litigation. Our argument is not that we will leave such people with no support at all, but that legal advice and litigation are not the best way of proceeding to resolve important social and family problems of the kind that she describes.
Mrs Grant
If matters such as residence and contact can be resolved without litigation, as they sometimes are, that is a good thing. Unfortunately, a woman in the situation that I have described and a man who has historically been difficult, drunken and abusive might not, regrettably, be able to sort things out.
We must accept that the past 50 years have created a social mess, caused largely by the demise of the family unit and stalling social mobility. We cannot pull the rug from under the feet of 500,000 people who have no genuine alternative. Civil liberty is about the freedom of our nation; civil legal aid is about protecting citizens. For some, civil legal aid is the only sword and shield in their armoury. We must therefore wear kid gloves when handling that delicate aspect of the public purse. For all the above reasons, I hope that further significant changes will be made to this important Bill in Committee and on Report.
Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab)
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to take part in this important debate, Mr Deputy Speaker. I agree with many of the comments made by the hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant). The Government should listen to her experience and knowledge.
For 60 years, legal aid has provided secure and guaranteed access to justice for those who cannot otherwise afford legal representation, often protecting the most vulnerable in our society. With their reforms, the Government are undermining the principles of justice. The right to access it will become the privilege of the few who can afford it. The more I understand about the Government’s approach to justice policy, the more I realise that there is nothing just about it. Despite receiving thousands of representations from a wide range of organisations expert in delivering legal aid effectively and productively that say this is not the right approach, the Government are not willing to listen.
We know that seeking legal representation is an expensive undertaking. I understand that, but the Government are trying, inexcusably, to put a price on justice, which is embedded in the British democratic system. That undermines us as a free and fair society where all have an equal right to justice. Everyone has the right to be treated fairly under the British legal system. Who someone is, how much they earn and where they live should not be taken into account. The expense of access to our legal system makes legal aid so important. Justice is a right, not a privilege. Everyone deserves their day in court.
The Government have said that they want to ensure through the reforms that legal aid is targeted at those who most need it. They must have made a mistake. Surely that cannot be correct when they are cutting legal aid for the aspects of law that are often the last protection for the most vulnerable in our society: housing, debt, welfare and employment advice. Legal aid has stood up for people and given them the voice that they deserve. I am not sure where the Government expect an alternative to step in to deal with representation and advice in the aspects of law that will be removed from the scope of legal aid provision. Perhaps it is another job for the big society.
When people have to represent themselves in court because they cannot afford the legal fees, something is not right. As with so much of their legislation, the Government have left the most vulnerable wanting. It is a travesty that 500,000 people will be denied their right to legal representation and a chance for justice. The Secretary of State has said:
“It cannot be right that the taxpayer is footing the bill for unnecessary court cases that would never have even reached the courtroom door, were it not for the fact that somebody else was paying.”—[Official Report, 15 November 2010; Vol. 518, c. 659.]
I seriously object to that trivialisation of our justice system. The right hon. and learned Gentleman’s reference to “unnecessary court cases” shows where the Government have gone wrong. Debt, social welfare, housing and education law are not unnecessary. They are serious and complex areas of law that deserve their chance in court.
Legal aid provision has improved and strengthened our laws on protections and compensation and given justice to victims of negligence. Legal aid has been critical in many precedent-setting cases, such as the Hillsborough disaster, the thalidomide cases and the Clapham rail crash. Advances in case law as a direct result of legal aid provision have improved protections for everyone. British law is in a better place because of the chance to access legal aid. Although I can sympathise to some extent with the Government’s desire to promote other forms of legal settlement outside a courtroom, such as through mediation, that should be an alternative, not the only option. In my experience, it does not always work.
Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government do not seem to have taken on board the fact that sometimes solving disputes out of court is possible only when the credible sanction of going to court at some stage is available? By taking that away, they undermine the system of mediation in which they put so much faith, and that will lead to miscarriages of justice.
Julie Elliott
I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend. The stick-and-carrot approach, whereby there is something to make people see sense, agree and discuss things sensibly, often makes the difference between mediation working and not working.
Despite the Government’s laissez-faire approach to access to our legal system and their willingness again to leave the most vulnerable members of our society out in the cold, one of my biggest problems with the reforms to legal aid provision is their economic short-sightedness. The cuts will ultimately lead to higher costs for society. The cost-benefit analysis of the reforms has shown that they are not cost-effective, but short-sighted and counter-productive. The costs to society will have to met elsewhere, by other Departments, including the Department of Health, the Home Office and the Department for Communities and Local Government. It is disappointing that, despite calls for it, no cross-Government departmental review is taking place to assess the inevitable extra costs.
Yesterday, I asked about the matter at Justice questions, and was told that other Departments’ impact analysis of the proposals was “ongoing”. Surely that should have been sorted out before Second Reading. Citizens Advice estimates that £24 million spent annually on debt advice saves the Government some £188 million elsewhere, and that for every £1 spent on legal aid, the state saves £2.34 on housing advice, £7.13 on employment advice and £8.80 on benefits advice.
Julie Elliott
I may not be an economist, but I am a British taxpayer and I can tell the House that the figures simply do not add up.
Even the Justice Committee, in its third report on legal aid, said:
“We are surprised that the Government is proposing to make such changes without assessing their likely impact on spending from the public purse”.
This is another case of the Government not listening to the experts on legal aid. I think we are detecting a theme here.
Let us maybe have one more for luck. I commend the good work of organisations such as the Law Society on looking at alternative cost-saving measures. The Law Society proposed alternative savings worth £384 million—£34 million more than the Government are looking to cut—which would still protect all civil and family legal representation. The Law Society made its representations but was ignored. Then the Justice Committee recommended that the Government assess the merits of their proposals. Again, that recommendation was not listened to.
With these reforms the Conservatives are demonstrating their reckless handling of the British justice system. We already knew that we could not trust the Conservatives to protect the most vulnerable members of our society; we now know that we cannot trust them to uphold the founding principles of British justice either. The Government’s own impact assessment says that these reforms will increase costs, increase criminality and reduce social cohesion. With that testament, I am left wondering: what are the real costs of these reforms to legal aid?
Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
Thank you for calling me, Mr Deputy Speaker. During the early part of the speech preceding that by the hon. Member for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott), I absented myself to go and have a sandwich, not having had any lunch, so I was not expecting you to call me quite as early in the debate.
This is obviously an important debate. I shall not necessarily speak for the full time that is available to me, but I want to focus on the sentencing aspects, specifically of the Green Paper. I do so from my perspective as one of the two sitting recorders in the House; I am not sure whether the other intends to speak. It seems to me important that I do so in circumstances where sentencing has got itself into a bit of a mess in this country. At least in England and Wales, it has become exceptionally complicated for the judiciary, and for that reason the proposals that the Government are putting forward in the Bill are important, not only from the perspective of “breaking the cycle,” which was the concern of the consultation document, but from the perspective of the judiciary and the operation of the criminal courts in effectively sentencing criminals and meting out due punishment for the offences of which they have been convicted by a jury.
The starting point with sentencing, of course, is the fact that in 2003 a Criminal Justice Bill was placed before the House and passed by the previous Government. It was amended on a number of occasions thereafter but was in fact a complete minefield. It was so complicated that in one case, the Court of Appeal commented that the relevant provisions were “labyrinthine”; in another they were described as a “legislative morass”. In a case called CPS v. South East Surrey Youth Court, the Court of Appeal said:
“So, yet again, the courts are faced with a sample of the deeply confusing provisions of the Criminal Justice Act 2003 and the satellite statutory instruments to which it is giving stuttering birth. The most inviting course for this Court to follow, would be for its members, having shaken their heads in despair, to hold up their hands and say: ‘the Holy Grail of rational interpretation is impossible to find’.”
I have to tell the House that the position in which the courts have found themselves in relation to sentencing during the last decade has been utterly intolerable. Judges have had to spend considerably more time than they ought to when they should be trying cases on preparing sentences, giving reasons above and beyond those which they were previously obliged to give, and in fact giving reasons that are probably immaterial for either the victims of crime or, indeed, those who are on the receiving end of the sentence to hear.
The simplification of that aspect of sentencing by the Bill, assuming that it becomes law, is therefore much to be welcomed. But I want it to go further, because the issue is important. I hope that the Lord Chancellor will listen to what I say in this regard and to what others, including the Sentencing Council—and, I think, the Bar Council and the Law Society—have said.
What we need, and what I hope we will see during this Parliament, is a consolidating statute that brings together sentencing for the entirety of the criminal law. Only then will the process become simpler and judges be able to give sentences that they are satisfied will not be taken to the Court of Appeal unless they have got things very wrong. Only then will people know precisely what sorts of sentences the courts are likely to hand down for the same sorts of offence. In due course, I imagine that that will ensure that considerable public support is given to the criminal justice system.
I want to say a few words about legal aid. My hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) spoke for many of us in expressing concerns about the removal of legal aid in relation to some of the areas proposed by the Ministry. I hope that those will be explored in great detail in Committee, particularly given the Lord Chancellor’s comments in his intervention on her. I want the Bill to come back with a report from the Committee that it is satisfied that the most vulnerable in our society will continue to have access to justice in precisely the same way as those who are able to buy justice. I say that from the perspective of one who, as a lawyer, considers access to justice extraordinarily important.
Like my hon. Friend, I am concerned about those particular provisions and how they might discriminate against some of the most vulnerable. That said, I have no doubt that the Bill will be amended in Committee and that the Government will listen; I hope that they will. I am not sure that the Bill has absolutely everything right, but it is a step in the right direction, particularly in respect of the burgeoning legal aid budget under which we in this country pay eight times as much as the French taxpayer to give access to justice to those entitled to legal aid. It is not suggested that there is some desert in France where nobody has access to justice, so it must be possible to reduce the costs of legal aid.
Indeed, the shadow Lord Chancellor said that last year, when he accepted that if Labour was in power, it too would have to make cuts to the legal aid budget. It is a matter of regret and shame that rather than coming to the House to say where he would be making those cuts, he made a series of—[Hon. Members: “No, he didn’t; he spelled it out.”] It is extraordinary to hear at least one Opposition Member saying that the shadow Lord Chancellor spelled it out. I listened to the entirety of his speech, and I did not hear anything spelled out at all. [Interruption.] The shadow Minister is on the Opposition Front Bench. Perhaps he will tell us now where Labour would make the cuts in the legal aid budget.
Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
There is a publication called Hansard, which the hon. and learned Gentleman might wish to read tomorrow. He will see what I will repeat now, although I feel that I am taking Back-Benchers’ time. The proposals in the March 2010 consultation, which were put forward by the then Labour Government and have not been taken forward by this Government, would more than compensate for the cuts being made in social welfare legal aid. If the hon. and learned Gentleman has a look at that consultation, he will see.
Stephen Phillips
I will go and have a look, and I am sure that Government Front Benchers will, too. We will be able to see during the winding-up speeches whether that is accepted as correct. For my part, I rather doubt that it will be.
Stephen Phillips
I am grateful, Mr Deputy Speaker. I did not really want to get into the legal aid aspects of the Bill. I have expressed my concerns and I am sure that Front Benchers are listening to them. I am concerned that the Opposition have at least not spelled out any detail as to where they would make the cuts that they accept have to be made to the legal aid budget.
Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)
As Lady Hale warned earlier this week, the £350 million legal aid cuts made by the Bill will hit the poorest and most vulnerable in society. She said that there is a well-known, ironic saying that
“in England, justice is open to all—like the Ritz”.
She went on to say:
“Courts are and should be a last resort but they should be a last resort that is accessible to all, rich and poor alike. The big society will be the big loser if everyone does not believe that the law is there for them.”
That sums up the current position very clearly.
The Bill represents a further attack on hard-working people and on the most vulnerable in society. It is a cobbled-together, dangerous, coalition concoction of the most risky kind. I think that it was the Justice Secretary who said today that it was a mixture of the Conservative dry and tough, and the soft, wet and liberal. I am honestly baffled by that. I do not know what it means; it does not make much sense. Should not our justice policy be wholly focused on the protection of the general public, on punishing offenders properly and on being on the side of the victim?
The Bill presents more questions than it answers. The measures go too far, too fast; they are incoherent. The cuts are aimed at saving money, not at reducing crime. The Bill puts cutting costs ahead of what is in the best interests of the victims and of reducing crime and punishing offenders. We are seeing massive cuts in front-line police, prison officers and probation trusts. Cuts to social welfare legal aid will leave the most vulnerable without any legal support. It is a one-size-fits-all approach to remodelling the civil justice system that threatens to render many areas of law unenforceable.
The Bill is unworkable, with a departmental cut of 23%. It is hardly the rehabilitation revolution promised by the Justice Secretary. The 23% cut to the Ministry of Justice budget means 10,000 fewer front-line staff in prisons and in probation, and a 50% reduction in capital spending on the prison estate. The cuts are intended to save £130 million, with a 3,500 reduction in the prison population. Undoubtedly the planned cuts will create massive problems with regard to the future security of prisons, the condition of the prison estate, and the safety of prison officers and their capacity to maintain order. It is an absolute nonsense for the Government to speak of the plans to improve rehabilitation and cut reoffending while cutting the number of prison and probation officers, and allowing the prison estate to be degraded.
There are three parts to the Bill: legal aid, litigation and funding costs, and sentencing and punishment of offenders. Like other hon. Members, I want to focus on the proposals for personal injury cases in the Jackson report, the precursor to the Bill. Jackson proposed that the after-the-event insurance premium become the responsibility of the claimant; that there be qualified one-way cost shifting to the defendant except in specific circumstances; that success fees be paid by the claimant; that referral fees be banned; and that there be a new test for proportionality. Those strong recommendations for reform are a package that needs to be implemented in full. The Bill does not deal with one of the most serious issues, the proposal to ban referral fees.
There are no proposals to ban referral fees. No one can have failed to become aware of the furore in the past two or three days created by the “revelation” of the market in road traffic accident claims. It now seems difficult to see which intermediary is not in receipt of a fee for selling on a claim. This cannot continue and should result in the banning of the payment of referral fees.
Many people were caught by surprise by this week’s revelations by insurance companies. They were shocked to hear that profits were being made from the sale of personal information, but some of us have been complaining vigorously about this practice for many years. The failure to ban referral fees is yet another example of the double standards that operate.
No legitimate claimant should be deterred from bringing a claim, and with no win, no fee no sensible lawyer would pursue a claim they did not have a reasonable prospect of winning. Make no mistake: this presents a huge struggle between the access rights of the injured person and the interests of those who have a financial interest in the outcome for the employer or third party who injured them. It also affects all Members’ constituents who find their ability to protect themselves and their families diminished by the savage cuts to legal aid.
What does the Bill do to address the delay caused by the unnecessary cost of defending the undefendable? It removes the claimant’s eligibility to legal aid to pursue a legitimate claim, leaving the weakest and most vulnerable in a much weaker position in investigating their claim or commencing proceedings.
Along with other organisations, the trade union movement sees that these changes will have a severe impact on health and safety. The employer who injures the employee will have no sanction imposed on him if the employee is discouraged or prevented from pursuing a legitimate claim for injury caused by the employer’s negligence. It is ironic that we are debating this on the day the Health and Safety Executive announced a huge increase—more than 170 in the past year—in workplace deaths. The trade union movement has a long and proven history of protecting its members, but that will be adversely affected by the Bill’s proposed changes.
Members have spoken about mediation, in respect of which there is cross-party support. The Government’s preferred option is not suitable for all, but it is an important tool in dealing with family breakdown. The Justice Committee and the family justice review have warned of the impact on vulnerable people, specifically those affected by domestic violence.
Mrs Louise Mensch (Corby) (Con)
Will the hon. Gentleman make it clear that mediation is not suitable in all cases, especially those involving domestic violence, for which legal aid will remain available?
Ian Lavery
If the hon. Lady had been present earlier in the debate she would have heard hon. Members on both sides of the House discuss that point.
The cuts to legal aid are likely to provide no real saving to the public purse but will lead to courts struggling to cope as the weak and vulnerable struggle to represent themselves. Should not the weakest and most vulnerable have the same access to justice as those with plenty of finance behind them? The Bill fails to ensure fairness across the board and is, as many Members have said, an utter shambles.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
The Lord Chancellor’s statement last week bore the worst hallmarks of a Budget speech delivered by the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown): all the good stuff was announced but all the catastrophes were laid out in the small print.
In his statement last week the Justice Secretary proclaimed that the best way to reduce crime is to reduce reoffending—a point to which many can, I am sure, subscribe—but his stance on indeterminate sentences shows beyond all doubt that, despite what he says, reoffending is not his main priority for the Bill or the criminal justice system. The right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) kindly mentioned the question I put to the Secretary of State yesterday. The reoffending rates among those released from prison on indeterminate sentences are among the lowest in the criminal justice system. If the Lord Chancellor’s priority is reoffending, why on earth does he want to get rid of one of the parts of the criminal justice system with the lowest rate of reoffending?
Anna Soubry
Will my hon. Friend please understand this? When someone is subject to an IPP, they have no knowledge about when they will be released. Does he know that they can be released only when they are deemed no longer to be a risk to society? A relatively small number of people have been released and we can assume that they were released only because they were no longer deemed a risk to society. The reason for that is that they have been on the sort of courses that other people on IPPs have not had the benefit of. The lack of courses is the real problem.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. May I ask for shorter interventions, because many Members wish to speak and I want to try to get everyone in?
Philip Davies
My hon. Friend is right that people are released only when it is safe to release them. My constituents think that it is rather a good thing that people are released from prison only when it is safe to let the out. I am all for that, unlike the Lord Chancellor.
The reason why the Lord Chancellor is not bothered about reoffending and indeterminate sentences is that he is not interested in reoffending at all. What then is his priority? It is the same as it has always been: simply reducing the number of criminals in prison. That is highlighted in the Bill’s explanatory notes, which state:
“The overall impact of the sentencing proposals will result in annual savings of approximately £80m in 2014/15, due to a reduction in the demand for prison places of 2,650”.
I invite all my hon. Friends to look back at what they promised their constituents at the general election in their personal manifestos and at what they said against their opponents at the hustings. Which of those who will vote for the Bill tonight said at the hustings that they were standing on a platform of reducing the number of criminals sent to prison by 2,650? I suspect that none of us said that, and I invite my hon. Friends to consider that when they decide how to vote tonight.
I am also concerned about the widely reported mandatory six-month sentence for thugs who use knives to threaten people. As I have already shown, this is a solution looking for a problem, because the sentencing guidelines already insist that such cases are sent to Crown court for a first offence because it is deemed that magistrates do not have sufficient sentencing powers.
It gets worse. On threatening with knives, clause 113 states:
“It is a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him or her in the place…concerned.”
That is a reasonable defence for possession of a knife, but how is it a reasonable defence for using a knife threateningly just to be able to explain why one has the knife in the first place? Either that is a drafting error or it is complete nonsense. Perhaps the Minister will enlighten us in his reply.
The provision is not mandatory anyway, because it is later stated that people do not have to be sent to prison if there are particular circumstances that relate to the offence or the offender that would make it unjust to send them there. So much for it being mandatory. It is a joke.
Clauses 56 and 57 are further examples of the Lord Chancellor’s aim of sending fewer people to prison. Clause 56(2)(a) removes the duty of the court to impose more onerous conditions once someone breaches a community order, or to resentence them to custody. It says that the court “may” do so instead of saying that it “must”, as currently applies.
Clause 56(2)(b) allows the court to impose a fine as a punishment for breaching a community order. That provision did not exist before. Clause 57 increases the length of sentence that can be suspended from a maximum of 51 weeks to two years and removes the need to attach any community requirements at all. If a criminal has committed an offence that deserves a custodial sentence of up to two years in prison, that is what they should get: a two-year sentence in prison. Furthermore, if someone is given a suspended sentence with no requirements, they will effectively not be punished at all.
As I said a couple of weeks ago, breaches of suspended sentences can now result in a fine, thanks to clause 58. Anybody who breaches their existing get-out-of-jail-free suspended sentence should go to one place only: immediate custody. Is it any wonder that the British public have no faith in sentencing? The criminal justice system can be effective only if the public have confidence in it.
The Bill also fails to extend a magistrate’s power of sentencing to up to 12 months, yet that was a firm manifesto commitment. Not only are we not implementing what was already in the law, we are repealing that part of the law in this Bill. We have already heard at length how schedule 10 removes the ability of the courts to remand somebody in custody, to try to make it harder for people to be remanded in custody so that they are instead granted bail. In the previous Parliament, the last Labour Government introduced the mechanism that time spent on bail on a tag could be knocked off a prison sentence in the same way as time spent on remand is knocked off a prison sentence. We were apoplectic with rage about that, and my hon. and learned Friend the current Solicitor-General said when we were in opposition that this proposal
“will cause a great deal of scepticism, undermine public confidence in the justice system and make the Government look increasingly ridiculous if the court is then required to say, ‘By the way, all the time that you have spent at home in bed is time that can be taken away from your custodial sentence.’”—[Official Report, 9 January 2008; Vol. 470, c. 369.]
I could not agree more. The only difference is that I still believe that this is wrong, whereas my Front-Bench colleagues have gone from thinking it was utterly ridiculous to formalising the policy as part of the Bill. Of course, the other measure to which we were wholly opposed in the previous Parliament was the automatic release of people halfway through their prison sentence, and that, too, is formalised in this Bill.
The British public are losing faith in the criminal justice system. One only has to look at the Populus polling carried out by Lord Ashcroft that showed that 80% of the public—80% of victims of crime, 80% of police officers—think that sentences for convicted offenders are already too lenient. When asked how they expected the new coalition Government would compare on crime with the last Labour Government, more than 50% of those polled said they expected them to be tougher. When asked their views a year after the coalition Government came to office, only 13% thought the Government had been tougher, whereas 23% thought they were less tough. That perception is a disaster for the Conservative brand, and this Bill will only further weaken our position.
All the above shows that this Bill is not the rehabilitation revolution or the reduced reoffending revolution we were promised; rather, it is a release revolution that will simply catapult more criminals out on to the streets to commit more crimes. I do not know if the Lord Chancellor is trying to break the world record for the number of manifesto pledges broken in one Bill, but if he is, he has made a good fist of it.
Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
I am going to speak against much of this Bill, but probably not as vehemently as the previous speaker.
The Bill serves two purposes: it attempts to advance and also to set back our legal system. I am reminded of the section in Lewis Carroll’s “Through the Looking Glass” in which the heroine, Alice, takes one step forward only to find herself taking two paces back. Some of the proposed sentencing reforms in part 3 of the Bill will tidy up the current sentencing framework by correcting some anomalies to do with release on licence, yet the concurrent cuts to legal aid we are being asked to push forward would hijack any claim our legal system has to being just. In my contribution, I will briefly set out my thoughts on both aspects of the Bill.
Although I have mentioned Lewis Carroll, I hope it will not seem too topsy-turvy for me to start by considering the end of the Bill. As I have mentioned, part 3 introduces some positive reforms, and I am particularly interested in clauses 93 to 96. In February, I introduced a ten-minute rule Bill with the aim of correcting various anomalies in sentencing, and I am pleased that some of them have been included in the Bill. My Bill’s aim was to ensure that prisoners serving determinate sentences of four years or more, as well as those on indeterminate sentences for public protection, are released back into the community only when a parole board has determined that they are a low risk to the public. Harry Fletcher of the National Association of Probation Officers assisted me in making those arguments. Incidentally, my Bill also argued for the ability to have regard to mental health problems when sentencing convicted persons. I am pleased that clause 62 goes some way towards realising that.
Under section 244 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, when a fixed-term prisoner has served the requisite custodial period, the Secretary of State should release them on licence. Since 2005, however, those serving four years or more have come out after serving only 50% of their sentences, regardless of what progress they make in prison. My Bill proposed to add a subsection that would have ensured that before the release of a person sentenced to four years or more in prison, the Parole Board must be satisfied that the individual is at low risk of causing harm to the public and of reoffending. Clause 94 goes one step forward in that regard, in that those released will not automatically be eligible for home detention curfew.
My Bill also suggested a reform of the indeterminate public protection sentence. I understand from the Lord Chancellor that there is to be a review of that. That is welcome, but the devil will be in the detail. The review is long overdue, and something must be done. As the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) has said, one of the main problems is that there are no courses for those people. That is the backlog—where the wall is. I am glad that those sentences will be looked at. I continue to press the argument that participation in offender management programmes should be taken into account when deciding whether to release a prisoner early. All things considered, I am glad about that provision.
I come now to the disappointing aspects of the Bill. As I have indicated, any attempt by the Ministry of Justice to suggest that the reforms in the Bill aim to make the criminal justice system fairer are undermined at the outset by the provisions in part 1, which will result in cuts of roughly £450 million a year to the legal aid budget. The consultation document boasts that legal aid will be retained in cases in which people’s life or liberty is at stake, in which they face the threat of serious harm or immediate loss of their home, or in which their children will be taken into care. It is almost as if we are meant to applaud that magnanimous decision, but the self-same document proposes to slash legal aid for almost all private family law, clinical negligence, employment and immigration cases, and all but the most severe debt, housing and welfare benefits cases.
Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the timing of the proposals is particularly difficult? They are being made at a time when the Government are proposing major changes to the welfare system. Many who will wish to challenge unfair decisions will be left without access to legal aid at the time of most need.
Mr Llwyd
The hon. Lady is absolutely right and has hit on an important point. In any event, this is the wrong time for this Bill. I hope that the Government pause in Committee to think again.
As I set out in my contribution to the legal aid debate in February, if the legal aid reforms are implemented, they will create a market for legal aid, which will be driven by cost rather than by the needs of clients. The most vulnerable people, including those with mental health problems and other disabilities, will find it almost impossible to gain access to free legal advice, because their cases will be too complex for firms to take on. The MOJ’s equality impact assessment acknowledges that the losers will predominantly be women, ethnic minorities and disabled or ill people, at 57%, 26% and 20% respectively.
The proposals about which I was most concerned—removing ancillary relief and private family proceedings from the scope of legal aid—remain largely unchanged, despite respondents, including me, arguing that not all cases can be successfully diverted to mediation; that without early legal advice fewer cases would settle, increasing the burden both on courts and those involved in disputes; and that decisions should be delayed until the outcome of the family justice review. Those pleas have fallen on deaf ears. Ancillary matters, such as child custody and maintenance, will not be dealt with sensibly, I am afraid, and it is difficult to overestimate the devastating effect that that will wreak on children caught up in these kinds of disputes. I speak as someone with 30 years’ experience in family cases, both as a solicitor and a barrister—I should declare that many of those cases were publicly funded.
In their response to the consultation, the Government conceded that legal aid should be available for victims of domestic violence. That is an important step, since in a 2005 study by Tridner et al 53% of women reported physical or emotional abuse as a cause of separation. Sir Nicholas Wall, president of the family division, has pointed out how “ill advised” the Government are to concentrate on domestic violence alone. Abuse, as Sir Nicholas said, is much broader and can be psychological, financial and/or emotional. One-size-fits-all solutions simply do not work with the complexities of our justice system.
The cuts to legal aid will increase rates of injustice, which is difficult to square with what the Prime Minister said about the reforms. He said last week at a press conference on the wider proposed reforms that his mission was to make sure that families felt safe in their homes—a worthy aim, of course, but there are many, many problems with the detail of the Bill. Vulnerable people will be left to go it alone. As Justice has said:
“The duty of a democratic state should be to ensure that members of society abide by, and benefit from, the provisions of the law.”
Both considerations appear missing from the cuts.
Hon. Members do not need to take it from me how dangerous these moves are. The European Court of Human Rights has criticised them, as has the United Nations Committee on Human Rights and the UN Human Rights Council. Our justice system should serve everybody, not the few, but these cuts to legal aid are crude, cumbersome and callous. The cuts in the scope of legal aid will undermine not only the reforms that the Government are promoting, but, if the cuts are implemented, the very principles on which our justice system rests.
Simon Reevell
I declare an interest in accordance with the Register of Members’ Financial Interests, as I have practised as a barrister since 1990.
There is not much in the Bill that is not about saving money, which, in itself, is not necessarily a bad thing. I am afraid, however, that some of the proposals could undermine confidence in the system. On the criminal law side, one example is how the Bill makes provision for the greater use of cautioning. West Yorkshire police, who operate in my constituency, are an innovative force pioneering a scheme called “In the Dock”, which displays photographs and details of convicted criminals on the internet. They hope that it will act as a deterrent and provide reassurance. It might work, but at the same time victims and the wider public might be more reassured, and potential criminals might be better deterred, if the same force did not caution thousands and thousands of criminals each year, including for sex and violent offences. The Bill encourages cautioning for adults, however, together with the greater use of fixed-penalty notices. That is cheaper, sure, but the message goes out, “Don’t worry, you’ll only get a caution.” Is there really a clamour from victims of crime for the increased use of cautioning by the police?
Other powers sought in the Bill are simply unworkable. Clause 12 allows the provision of legal advice at police stations to be means-tested. Before Labour Members get too excited, I should say that the only reason why that was not introduced through the back door by the previous Labour Government was that the High Court stopped them. The provision simply will not work. Legal advice at police stations is guaranteed by Act of Parliament. If the police were anxious to interview someone who was self-employed and did not have three years of accounts on him when arrested, what would happen? Someone would have to sit down and work out whether he qualified for assistance. There is no basis for bringing that sort of provision into the criminal justice system.
The Bill also introduces a knife crime offence that already exists in at least two other statutes. It does not mean that jail for carrying a knife is automatic— nor should it. The young ex-soldier I represented who had been blown up in Kosovo and who had a knife in his coat as he walked through Middlesbrough for reasons he did not really feel able to explain should not be sent to prison automatically because he falls foul of legislation. There has to be room for discretion. Sentences of up to four years are already available to the courts, and if the new offence in clause 113 is to be introduced, I invite the Minister to review its wording. The current wording certainly creates an offence, but it will also create practical difficulties for prosecutors seeking to secure convictions.
There are positive measures in the Bill. The Legal Services Commission is dysfunctional, and it is a courageous but necessary decision to bring it in-house. Already the inability to process legal aid forms is causing delays of months, which are unfair to victims and a waste of resources. The LSC’s inability to process payments threatens jobs in small businesses and is a disgrace. If a template for how to do that job well is required, the Minister should visit the Armed Forces Criminal Legal Aid Authority, at which a small group of people working in a portakabin demonstrate what can be achieved.
Other aspects of the Bill appear to cause concern but in reality do not. Schedule 10 might not be a good advert for drafting, but it does nothing to change the status quo as far as the granting of bail is concerned. The double negative involved means that the absconder or the reoffender will not benefit from those provisions. Elsewhere in the Bill, unfortunately, positive features—of which there are some—are overshadowed by the steps being introduced to achieve savings. An example of that is clause 57, which takes away the mandatory requirement to impose a community sentence alongside a suspended sentence. There are occasions on which that is simply unnecessary and is a waste of resources as far as the probation is concerned, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) has indicated, the clause also moves back up to two years the length of sentence that can be suspended. Suspended sentences have been fashionable, then unfashionable, and have become fashionable again over the past 20 years, but the effect of the measure is that a sentence of 18 months, which currently has to be served, could in future be suspended. I agree with my hon. Friend that sentences of more than 12 months really ought to be served.
Let me address the measures on civil courts, in which decent people who have suffered dreadful loss through personal injury or clinical negligence receive financial compensation to offset their suffering—and no more than that. There is no profit element to a victim’s damages, and a victim of surgical error can be as much a victim as a victim of crime. Some of those victims are children whose births were so badly mismanaged that they will never become adults. I remember acting for one such child: not only was he going to require 24-hour care for the rest of his life, but his parents had not even been told by the hospital how long that life would be. When I told them that number at a meeting—it was not a large one—two of the most dignified people I have ever met looked at each other and said, “Well, at least we’ll always be young enough to look after him properly.” The compensation they received was carefully costed to provide only what was necessary and no more.
The Bill introduces the concept that the successful claimant should pay part of their costs from the damages. The idea that this might make people more involved in the claim may have a certain appeal, but in reality it means that that element will have to be funded from damages that are awarded for pain and suffering. In practical terms it means that although someone wins their case, not all the steps around their house can have a ramp and not all the doors in the property can be widened.
In clinical negligence claims, a claimant inevitably requires expert medical evidence. As that is expensive the claimant can take out a policy to insure against the cost, if the claim fails. At present, that is recoverable from the other side and will remain so, but only in clinical negligence cases. If the same injuries with the same consequences occurred as a result of a surgeon driving into the victim, rather than performing a negligent operation, the premium will have to be paid by the successful claimant from the damages they receive. That seems strange, because the people who will be affected by it are not ambulance chasers or part of a compensation culture, but innocent victims. The offer of a safety net that requires claimants to demonstrate human rights violations in order to get justice is a poor solution.
We should prosecute those who should be prosecuted and jail those who should be jailed. We should make provision that allows those whose lives are ruined not by crime but by the negligence of others to achieve proper redress. We should, because we must, look to make savings, but savings in the justice budget must not become synonymous with providing less justice.
Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab)
This Bill has not had a good reception on either side of the House of Commons. Several hon. Members have referred to the impact of these changes on women who suffer domestic violence and who will be ineligible for legal aid under the Bill because the evidence that they will be required to present is far too restrictive. Because of these proposals, there is likely to be an increase in the number of women being cross-examined by a perpetrator in detail about the physical or sexual violence that they have experienced. That will mean that a woman who is already a victim will be re-victimised.
My constituency is one of the most deprived in the country. The latest figures show that we have 9.7% unemployment. What the Government have done across the spectrum in ending the health in maternity grant, ending the education maintenance allowance, cutting Sure Start and increasing tuition fees will mean that life is harder for the people who sent me to Parliament. This Bill is yet another instalment in what they are doing to the people of Gorton and the people of Manchester. In the past two years, two independent advice centres in my city have closed down. Manchester Advice, which had about 100 staff providing advice on welfare rights, housing and consumer affairs and debt, closed in April. All that is left is the community legal advice service and a couple of solicitors who have a contract for rather less than £3 million over three years but are facing a 10% cut in October. In any case, none of the specialists’ work will be funded when the contract expires in two years’ time.
South Manchester Law Centre in my constituency struggles on with a small immigration contract. The situation is such that the law centre may well be destroyed, and that is the body to which my constituents with immigration problems have to turn. That means that they will increasingly have to turn to their Member of Parliament or pay exorbitant sums to grasping, greedy solicitors. There are now only two legal aid immigration advice providers in Manchester, but within three miles of South Manchester Law Centre there are 50 solicitors firms, and at least the same number of non-solicitors, all anxious to part vulnerable people from their money. On Friday evening, I shall have my constituency surgery, and people will come to me and tell me of the hundreds of pounds they are being forced to pay because of the lack of adequate free advice that is so essential to them.
Again and again, this Bill damages the people who can least survive the damage. In Manchester, there will be some £2 million-worth of cuts in the civil legal aid budget, approximately two thirds of which are directed at people who are currently eligible for legal aid, while one third will come from remuneration cuts to providers who will be expected to do the same work for less money. All that affects the same people who have been hit by the cuts in public service delivery. The majority of the 6,500 people in our area who have used the civil legal aid service come from low-income households, and they are predominantly women, black and minority ethnic people and sick and disabled people. People with mental health problems and other disabilities experience much higher rates of unemployment, homelessness and discrimination, and they will be disproportionately affected.
Again and again, we hear examples of how people in my constituency and more widely will be damaged. The areas of welfare benefit, employment and debt, except for cases in which the client’s home is at immediate risk, will be removed completely from the legal aid remit, and such access as there will be to legal aid will become more difficult. For example, the community legal advice helpline has an 0845 prefix, which is expensive for people to dial and, in addition, people want and need face-to-face advice. They do not want to talk to somebody who will not be able to see or assess them; they want advice from other human beings who care about them.
People with learning disabilities and mental health issues prefer to receive advice in person in order to pick up on non-verbal signals and to build the trust necessary to talk about their problems, because people are shy, reluctant and, sometimes, ashamed to talk about their problems. Women who suffer domestic violence put up with it because they are ashamed to talk about it and ashamed about getting into the predicament.
We are faced with a Government who are taking away from people who need the services that members of the Government do not need and have never needed, so they do not understand the damage that they are causing. I say to the Government and to the many Government Members who have had the decency to talk about their misgivings, let us try to improve the Bill, because people’s lives, well-being, peace of mind and domestic situations all depend upon it. We cannot go on like this—victimising those who are already victims.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. Just before I bring the next speaker in, I am going to reduce the time limit to six minutes. We still have 20 speakers to come, and I do want to get everybody in, so anybody who can shave a little time off that will be gratefully welcomed.
Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)
I thank the Secretary of State and Lord Chancellor for bringing forward a balanced and pragmatic Bill that identifies problems that have built up over a longer period, but I, like many colleagues, have several concerns about the sentencing and legal aid proposals. Speeches have been cut to six minutes, but my hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury (Simon Reevell) highlighted subtly and beautifully all the points that I wanted to make about clinical negligence, so there is no point in me making any of them again.
I should like to discuss the sentencing proposals, however. Before I became a Member in 2005, I spent three years working for the current Minister of State, Cabinet Office, my right hon. Friend the Member for West Dorset (Mr Letwin), who during that time was shadow Home Secretary. For a year, I went in and out of prisons and, for most of that time, in and out of young offenders institutions throughout the country.
One observation that I made during that year was that the young offenders all came from chaotic backgrounds. They had learning disabilities, many had mental health issues, very few had had a father at home and many had drug problems. They could not read or write, they lacked confidence and they had had very little education, mainly because no one had been there to take them to school from an early age. They had never got into the routine of attending school, and their lives before they entered the young offenders institution were abysmal.
The YOIs gave them three meals a day, however; they got into a routine whereby they went to bed at night and got up in the mornings; they were introduced to drug rehabilitation programmes; they had a chance to learn such skills as bricklaying; some of them painted for the first time in their lives and learned how to be decorators; and at Thorneywood YOI in Warrington they worked in the kitchens for a while with the caterers. It was good to see the work that was being done with some of the people in those institutions.
I believe that prison works. It works because it takes the young offenders away from their chaotic lifestyles and puts them where work can be done. The Lord Chancellor mentioned “radical reform”, but I would like to see radical reform that introduces really serious drug rehabilitation programmes. I would like sentences to be served in full so that work can be done with these people when they come into the prison or YOI.
One of the main problems with reoffending was that once people left the YOI, there was no housing for them. The probation officers used to tell me, “We have nowhere for them to live.” So they would go back to the squats and the friends they had been with before, and therefore straight back into the lifestyle that put them into the YOI. They became recidivists and ended up back in prison. That is where the social impact bond scheme in Peterborough is doing so well and where its real strength could lie. Let prison work and ensure that people serve their sentences in full. Do not put 2,650 people back into the chaotic environments they came from. Ensure that we have true prison reform so that they go somewhere they can receive true education and be taught skills, come off drugs and build up their confidence. Put them into the institutions because prison can work.
Will the Minister confirm when he winds up whether it is the case that private prisons in the UK operate at a cost that is 40% less than state prisons? If so, why are we looking at putting 2,650 prisoners back on the streets to save costs? Why do we not take on the Prison Officers Association and address the reason why it costs 40% more to run state prisons than it does private prisons? Why not look at marketeering in prison reform as well as in education and health?
My main point is that people should not be put back out on the streets: we should make prison work. We have institutions that can offer everything that people need—education, skills training—to ensure that they do not offend when they get out.
Yvonne Fovargue (Makerfield) (Lab)
As I am the chair of the all-party group on legal aid, it will come as no surprise that I wish to speak today mostly about the proposals to reform legal aid. However, I first wish to take issue with the attempt by the Government to legitimise the cuts in legal aid by insisting that England and Wales have by far the most expensive legal aid system in the world. The one piece of research that has been done on this is on the Ministry of Justice website and it says that it does not compare like with like. It is an interesting piece of research and I commend it to hon. Members.
Legal aid is the smallest proportion of the justice budget and it is the hardest hit. More than 5,000 individuals and groups responded to the consultation and 90% said, “Do not take social welfare law out of scope.” I stress that these were not fat cat lawyers, worried about their income, but individuals and organisations who see the effect that the proposals will have on their most needy and vulnerable clients—those who are least able to defend themselves.
Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne) (LD)
Does the hon. Lady agree that the reforms will be a tragedy for the citizens advice bureaux, which have a tremendous reputation for serving those very disadvantaged individuals who will lose out as a result of these cuts in legal aid?
Yvonne Fovargue
I accept that point and I will address the effect on citizens advice bureaux and other advice agencies later in my speech.
The Government’s impact assessment acknowledges that the losers will be predominantly women, people from ethnic minority backgrounds and the ill and disabled—yet another example of the most vulnerable bearing the brunt of the cuts.
It is worth reminding the House why the scope of legal aid was extended to include social welfare law, and why advice agencies and not-for-profit advisers were able to enter the field. The Labour Government recognised that it was cost-effective to provide early intervention and advice and help with dealing with a cluster of problems. Dealing with problems at an early stage stopped people reaching crisis point and turning to other more expensive Government-funded services.
The Government recognised that advice agencies, such as the CAB, had expertise in this area and could provide an effective and a trusted delivery mechanism. Not all bureaux have contracts, but more than 200 do, and they have more than 1,500 outlets that provide advice. Throughout the country, they provide specialist services that are funded by the Legal Services Commission. Without this funding, the viability of all those outlets and their main bureaux is under threat coupled as these cuts are with cuts to local authority funding, loss of primary care trust funding and no certainty about the financial inclusion fund.
In 2010, 3,080 cases in my own borough were procured by the LSC. If these plans go through, there will be a 76% cut in those cases. Some 2,342 people will be denied access to justice. The total loss of funding in Wigan will be £428,000. Behind those figures are people, including the woman who attended my local CAB because she was being prosecuted for fraud by the Department for Work and Pensions. She was told that she owed £26,000, but after three appeals, it was found that she owed less than £300, due to departmental errors.
There was also the couple who had borrowed money to adapt their property for their disabled child. After her unexpected death, they could no longer maintain all the repayments due to the drop in their income, and they had the bailiffs at their door. Then there was the woman in the secure mental health unit who needed help after she had been refused disability living allowance and had had her jobseeker’s allowance suspended for not attending an interview. I could go on but each example demonstrates that it is the vulnerable who are losing out, and they are now losing those who are there to speak out for them.
The timing of such cuts, with the Welfare Reform Bill coming in in 2013, is absolutely appalling. People’s fundamental right to have a decent income and to live without fear of debt is being removed. The loss of legal aid in welfare law means that people are also losing the ability to hold Government Departments to account. The DWP already loses more than 60% of its cases, and those cases will now no longer be challenged by advice agencies.
Demand for debt advice is also going up, as rising prices, static wages and job losses mean that people can no longer afford to maintain payments. Tackling the issue when it reaches crisis point and people are in imminent danger of losing their home is not a sensible, fair or economic way in which to deal with the problem. Dealing with debt at an early stage ensures that priority debts are not ignored to pay the clamorous non-priority creditors and, most important of all, it takes away the extreme levels of stress and depression that any threat of losing a home or possession, imminent or not, causes to individuals. In 2009, the Legal Services Research Centre found that unresolved debt matters cost the public purse more than £1,000 on average. Legal aid for each debt cases costs £196. The figures speak for themselves.
I could go further but I would like the Minister to answer some questions. What is his Department doing to address the impact of the Government proposals on the advice sector? What assessment has he made of the availability of advice in 2013? What assessment has been made of the effect on the tribunals service of increasing numbers of people representing themselves? Finally, has any assessment been made of the cost to the public purse of not providing access to social welfare law under the legal aid scheme?
Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con)
I would like to speak about the criminal justice system and our sentencing policy as reflected in the Bill. I declare my interest: I practised as a criminal barrister for some 16 years before being elected to the House.
If there was ever a man without a plan, it was the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan). He and the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) and, indeed, many other Opposition Members really should hang their heads in shame. After 13 years of a Labour Government, we are faced with a legacy of complete failure in the criminal justice system. Yet again, rather like the deficit, it falls on this Government to clear up the mess left by Labour.
Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)
Does the hon. Lady not accept that crime fell by 43% under the previous Government? As a criminal barrister, she really ought to acknowledge that fact.
Anna Soubry
I am afraid that I do not accept that figure. I do not think that things are as simple as that. For example, as the Lord Chancellor explained, the theft statistics have fallen because of the protection that is now afforded to motor vehicles. Antisocial behaviour is not a recordable offence. I know from my own experiences in Nottinghamshire that the police are almost bending over backwards not to record criminal activities as recordable offences. So I cast real doubt on those statistics.
The hon. Gentleman talks about statistics, so let us listen to those on the legacy that we have inherited. Our prisons are full to bursting. Reoffending grew under Labour to 61.1% for offenders who serve short sentences. Half of adults leaving jail are reconvicted within a year, and 74% of young people sentenced to youth custody and 68% of young people on community sentences reoffend within a year. Those are the damning statistics. That is the legacy, and that is the reality.
We face other realities as we approach those difficulties. Prisons are awash with drugs. How many people are astounded to hear that there are things called drug-free wings? Hon. Members might suppose that all our jails should be free of drugs, but unfortunately they are not. Some people actually turn for the first time to class A drugs because they are in custody. I know from my experience of the people whom I represented that not only are drugs freely available in prisons, but they are often cheaper on the inside than out on the street. That is the legacy that we inherit.
Too many of our prisoners languish in 23-hour bang-up, because they cannot get on to courses and no work for them is available. The Bill specifically addresses such difficulties and issues, and I want to herald the proposals and want them to triumph. That will mean that people in prison will actually work. They will earn money that will go back to the people who are the victims of the crime. We are introducing good and right measures that will go a long way to ensure that prison works. At the moment, prison does not work. That is why we have those reoffending rates, why prisons are awash with drugs and why so many prisoners are on 23-hour bang-up.
We must not take a simplistic and broad-brush approach to sentencing. With great respect to many hon. Members, that is, unfortunately, what they do. The Bill achieves a difficult and delicate balance: it recognises the need to reform, but it does so within the financial restrictions and realities that this nation faces. Those who say simply, “Bang ’em all up and throw away the key,” fail then to say how much that would cost and how on earth we would pay for it.
The Bill recognises the failures of too many short-term sentences, as well as the fact that some people need to spend longer in prison. We are now considering the reform of indeterminate sentences for public protection. The last Government changed the distinction between short and long-term imprisonment, which fell at four years. Under their legislation, there was no such distinction. Those who got four years served three quarters of their sentence; those who got less than four years served half. Labour abolished that, so that all prisoners on determinate sentences were automatically released halfway through. We are now considering reforming imprisonment for public protection so that the most serious offenders return to serving three quarters of their sentence. We should welcome the measures, as I certainly do.
I am grateful that the Government have listened and consulted, especially among those of us who have only recently returned from the front line of the criminal justice system. I welcome the fact that we will not increase the amount of discount for a guilty plea to 50%. I spoke out against that without any difficulty. I urge the Government to go further and consider freeing our judges so that there is no mandatory figure. In some cases, a discount of more than 50% is needed and would be welcomed, while in other cases, there should be no discount however early a plea is entered. My message to the Government is to free our judges.
I know that many Government and Opposition Members have concerns about legal aid. I urge the Government to ensure that the poorest and most vulnerable in our society continue to have access to legal aid, especially women, who might be abandoned by feckless and adulterous husbands or partners who leave them penniless while themselves remaining in funds. Such women will not have access to legal aid to ensure that they are properly sorted out in the proceedings on divorce and ancillary relief for them and their children. We must protect them.
I am afraid that the clock is against me; I wanted to talk about IPPs. I welcome the Government’s proposals and I look forward to the consultation. I also put in a quick plug for the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner), who is determined to increase sentences for dangerous driving, which is a thoroughly good idea. The Bill is a mixture of soft and hard. It is realistic, given the circumstances, and I commend it thoroughly to the House.
Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)
It is always an absolute pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry). I agree with some of what she says, and certainly with her remarks on my Bill about dangerous driving.
I do not disagree with everything that the Government propose in the Bill, but I have concerns about parts of it. On civil liberties, for example, clause 12, which seeks to limit advice and assistance in a police station, is a mistake. It is no good for the Government to say that the previous Government proposed to do similar things; I am concerned about what this Government are doing. Section 58(1) of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 provides that people in a police station are entitled to legal advice from a solicitor in private consultation. That absolutely must remain. Clause 52 proposes to prevent people from recovering defence costs in Crown courts. If they pay their own fees, they will be prevented from recovering their costs if they are successful at trial. That is a mistake.
I am concerned that the Government seem to be ignoring advice. Some of it is very good—the hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) made some superb remarks about what effects she thinks the Government’s plans will have—but the Government seem to be passing it off as irrelevant and unimportant. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Broxtowe says that that is not right, but I have seen it. The Bar Council has provided detailed proposals for alternative savings. I have seen no evidence of the Government’s acknowledging those proposals. That also applies to Law Society proposals. I agree with the remarks of the Bar Council, my professional body, that the Bill represents do-it-yourself justice, not access to justice.
Of course, solicitors, whether family or criminal—whatever the nature of the practice—are bound to want to protect themselves from cuts to their businesses. However, in my experience, publicly funded lawyers do not act just for money but because they want to help people, give them advice and protect them from often complex law. Lawyers always say that law is complex—we are bound to do that. I say it constantly, even to myself. However, it is genuinely difficult, and the procedure is often complicated. Lay people struggle with the most basic proceedings, and I have real concerns about the Government’s agenda. It is truly the most vulnerable who will suffer the consequences of the Government’s proposals.
Let us consider only a few of the matters that will be outside the scope of legal aid provision: clinical negligence, criminal injuries compensation, debt, education and employment. It is madness. Providing employment advice and assistance saves money in the long run. If a client goes to an experienced employment solicitor with instructions about a case, the solicitor is often the filter that prevents them from completing what is nowadays called an ET1 and getting it to a tribunal. That prevents costs in the long run. The Government have failed to recognise that.
Rehman Chishti
Employment tribunals do not currently have the power to order costs. What about a position whereby a malicious claim is made, someone defends their character and fights all the way but cannot be awarded costs at the end? Does the hon. Gentleman think that that needs to change?
Karl Turner
I am not sure. I do not think that I have time to consider the hon. Gentleman’s point properly and give him a fair answer. It worries me that, although the Government are trying to save money, not providing advice and assistance at this early stage will cost them much more in the long run.
Excluding housing law and welfare benefits will mean the most vulnerable in society suffering the most. The Chairman of the Bar said:
“The Government has failed to listen to the views expressed by many in the judiciary, the legal profession and voluntary organisations in formulating its proposals on legal aid.
Legal aid will be withdrawn from whole swathes of areas of law and access to justice will be systematically deprived.”
I agree entirely. He does not have an axe to grind. He has been in the profession for a terribly long time and should be respected for his professional opinion.
I could mention many solicitors in my area who have contacted me in recent days to warn me of the dangers of lack of access to justice. They make those points not because they are worried about not buying the next flash car, but because they represent people and they care about those clients. I mean that sincerely.
Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con)
The Bill falls into two distinct parts, despite its tripartite title: first the reforms to sentencing and the punishment of offenders, and secondly the changes to legal aid.
On the first part, I welcome the key changes. The public need reassurance that this Government can protect them from crime and tackle the issue of reoffending, about which my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) spoke so well. I particularly welcome the work for prisoners’ reform. Locking up offenders is fine, but how much better to have them repaying their debt by working, and increasing their own motivation and appetite for work on exit. Part of that must be the crackdown on drug abuse inside prisons. I completely agreed with my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) when she pointed out how many people recently have expressed their concern and outrage at the concept of drug-free wings in prison. Our ultimate aspiration must be drug-free prison. That, above all, will help people avoid offending. I welcome this tough but fair Bill, which addresses the problems of drugs and worklessness in that respect.
Turning to the legal aid side and the cuts in the civil sector, the Government have provided much evidence of the disproportionate costs of legal aid in this country, and I do not doubt it. I agree heartily with the strategy of discouraging too much litigation, particularly at a cost to the public purse. But surely the challenge that we are setting ourselves is to fillet out areas of waste while leaving intact the essential service of legal aid for the most vulnerable.
I wonder whether the cuts as currently set out fall too harshly in an area that has as its sole objective the support for people who are least able to speak up for themselves. As the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) said, that area is not replete with fat cat lawyers; it is mostly populated by men and women who are committed to helping the most needy in their communities. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”] As we know, not everyone is able to speak up for themselves. We talk of telephone lines and of self-representations at tribunals, which are things that MPs could do, although naturally we hope not to be in that situation, but which many people who are less educated simply cannot.
I therefore ask the Government to consider carefully the issue of taking welfare benefits out of scope. That phrase needs some explanation; when talking to colleagues I have found that not everyone understands it. What it means is professional advice going to people who need it, regarding their welfare claims on the ground. It sounds trivial but it is absolutely not. This is about critical sums of money for families who need every penny—and, by the way, most of these situations do not involve a lawyer.
In Hastings, three agencies have come together. They have a contract for £270,000, and last year they gave face-to-face service to 1,500 people—detailed advice and support, often including accompanying them to tribunals. Make no mistake: we need those services. I am told that 56% of those who attended that service had long-term illness or disability, and of those 69% had mental health issues. Where will they go? I hope we shall have an answer, because although we have had some encouraging comments from Ministers we need reassurance that there is somewhere for those people to go if that service is taken away.
Last year, the Hastings advice and representation centre supported 250 benefits appeals, of which it lost only two, which clearly demonstrates the value of that work and the fact that it takes things on only where there is a real case to answer. If we knew that the Department for Work and Pensions made only good decisions and that the reforms to universal credit which we are so looking forward to had come through and the system worked 100%, I would have no doubts about supporting the cuts to that aspect of legal aid, but at the moment we know that is not the case, and while that problem exists we must have a system to support these people.
I am not saying that there are no cuts to be made—oh no. We have a major deficit to sort out and we must make these cuts. The Law Society has made some suggestions; I have another. I would like to look very carefully at the funding of trivial human rights cases, in which lawyers have spent huge sums on establishing largely technical violations of the European convention. For instance, how much money was spent last year by the last Government on legal aid for prisoners? Can we have less legal aid for prisoners and more for the most vulnerable in our society?
Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)
Thirty years ago, as secretary of the Brent Trades Council and the Brent Federation of Tenants and Residents Associations, I brought together, with progressive lawyers, the group that formed the second community law centre in Britain. It is still going strong to this day. For three decades, the centre has been a lifeline for those in need of legal advice and representation, challenging public authorities as we did when we won the battle to change housing regulations following the tragic death of a young husband on a high-rise block on the Stonebridge estate; he had been trapped because there was no way out of his burning flat.
Three decades on, as the Member of Parliament for Birmingham, Erdington, I was alongside four brave families who, funded by legal aid, won a landmark case against Birmingham city council, which had cut care to 4,100 elderly and disabled residents in Birmingham. Without legal aid, justice for the vulnerable would have been denied and a heartless council would have ploughed on regardless.
The hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) spoke on behalf of many on both sides of the House when she summed up the nature of the dilemma. Hundreds come to my surgery, as they do to hers, every month. Many face urgent and serious problems relating to everyday issues such as debt, employment, benefits, care services and family matters. I often refer them to specialists such as those at the Birmingham Law Centre, Citizens Advice or other legal aid solicitors.
Without that help, the people I see would not be able to stay in their homes, in work or in education. The vital advice provided by the specialists in social welfare law has helped many families and individuals whom I see to avoid costly litigation and prevent or mitigate the effects of marital and family breakdown.
Now, under these proposals, 650,000 at recent estimates—and half a million, according to the Ministry of Justice’s own impact assessment—will lose out on that vital help through changes to legal aid alone, when other funding streams for free advice have already been cut or are under threat. In Birmingham, about 6,500 cases will no longer be funded as a consequence. Each represents a loss of specialist help when it is most needed.
Legal aid funding is being withdrawn from all employment advice, welfare benefits advice, virtually all debt advice, nearly half of housing advice and nearly all education advice. There can be only one outcome: avoidable poverty and distress for many thousands of people. Not only will people be less likely to receive advice, but advice will be harder to find as agencies currently funded through legal aid find it more difficult to carry on. For example, the average impact of the cuts on individual not-for-profit providers will be a 92% drop in legal aid. That makes no sense, given that we know that the right advice early on can save the public purse up to £10 for every £1 invested.
It is absolutely wrong that in a civilised society, when things go wrong, we deny the people affected access to the specialist help that they need to put things right. As the hon. Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd) said, we need to tackle the root of the problem—poor decision making by the various state bodies involved—as well as continuing to invest in the existing value-for-money front-line advice services such as the five tremendous citizens advice bureaux and the 13 advice centres in Birmingham.
In conclusion, the Government said that they made their legal aid proposals following consultation. It is clear that these are friendless proposals. It is clear that there has been a dialogue with with the deaf because the Government simply have not listened. They have not listened to people such as Gillian Gray from Citizens Advice, who says that civil legal aid keeps people in their houses, in jobs and out of debt. Hundreds of thousands of people will now have nowhere to turn. Serious cases of family breakdown, unfair dismissal and refusal of benefits will simply get nowhere.
Like my right hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Joan Ruddock), I was present to hear Supreme Court Justice Baroness Hale earlier this week as she forensically dissected the Government’s proposals, arguing that access to the courts without representation is a denial of justice. In her words:
“There is a well-known ironic saying, usually attributed to Lord Justice Mathew, that in England justice is open to all—like the Ritz.”
Justice for the well-off only is no justice at all.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
I speak as a lawyer who practised as a criminal barrister and, for a period of time, appeared in the county court representing victims of domestic violence in seeking non-molestation and harassment injunctions and looking at contact and family law cases. With all that in mind, I consider the Bill in two parts. First, I look at it in terms of improving our criminal justice system and our justice system overall. What do I mean by that? I mean making our justice system more friendly and less acrimonious, and resolving matters at an earlier stage rather than allowing them to go to court. People have talked about mediation and said that it may not be possible in every case. Of course, that is right. However, it is right and proper to consider how to resolve matters before they get to the courts.
Let us consider the consultation proposals put forward for the small claims courts. It is absolutely right that matters are resolved before they get to court because it is often the case that people lose more in legal fees than they gain in compensation or fees awarded back to them by the court.
Mediation cannot, however, be used in cases of domestic violence. That is why the 5,000 responses to the Government’s 12-week consultation made it clear that the Government had broadened the criteria for objective evidence to be used in domestic violence cases.
I turn briefly to a matter that is often raised with me by my constituents, who say that it is morally wrong that legal aid is being given to squatters to fight eviction. I asked the Department for Communities and Local Government how many squatters there are in the United Kingdom, and was told that there are 20,000. How can it be right that people can occupy the homes of others and cause damage, and then be given legal aid by the taxpayer—your money, my money—to fight eviction? That is absolutely wrong, and it is right and proper that the Government are carrying out consultation to improve the situation. That would also put us on a par with Scotland, where squatting is a criminal offence.
I want briefly to touch on the subject of legal aid being given to foreign students who want to appeal decisions on visa applications. It is fantastic that people from different parts of the world want to study in our country, but when they apply for a visa at the high commission or embassy in their country and are turned down, they appeal to immigration judges in our country. Who pays for that legal aid? Those students do not pay taxes. British citizens pay for that legal aid. That is wrong and it must stop.
Another important point about immigration cases, which the Bill deals with, is the instances of repeated appeals on judicial review on the same point, one after the other. I spoke to an immigration tribunal judge who raised that very point. He said that people make numerous appeals, one after the other, on the same point, and get legal aid. Clearly that is wrong, and it has to change.
The Law Society proposes that legal aid be capped at £250,000 per lawyer, but that is unworkable as it means that legal aid would have to be transferred to another lawyer. Its proposal does not tackle the root cause.
The shadow Justice Secretary said that under the previous Government reoffending and offending behaviour had been looked at. That is complete nonsense. I tabled a written question to the Ministry of Justice asking how many prisoners had lost remission for disciplinary offences in the previous 12 months. The answer revealed that
“in 2009 the disciplinary punishment of additional days was imposed on 11,550 occasions”.—[Official Report, 27 June 2011; Vol. 530, c. 517W.]
That quite clearly shows that the system is shambolic. In the past, prisoners did whatever they wanted and misbehaved, yet they were let out early. That is the record of the previous Government.
The Secretary of State spoke of rehabilitation and of prisoners doing 40 hours of work. A judge imposing a custodial sentence will be able to instruct the defendant to work for 40 hours and pay compensation to his victim. That is restorative justice and it stops the victim being hung out to dry.
I very much welcome the Secretary of State’s proposals. We must listen and engage, but the 12-week consultation showed that we have listened about broadening the definition of domestic violence and are working with other parties to ensure that hard-working taxpayers’ money is not given to people who enter properties, cause damage and yet are given money to avoid eviction.
Applying the principle that brevity is a virtue and not a vice, I end my remarks.
Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab)
I want to discuss a problem that the Bill creates for the victims of human rights abuses committed by UK-based multinationals operating overseas.
In the wake of the financial crisis there is near-universal recognition that the moral code that binds individuals and states also binds business, that nobody is above the law and that multinational corporations cannot be allowed to put profit before people by committing crimes against them and the environment. That is why I am deeply concerned about the proposals on civil litigation costs, which will make it virtually impossible to bring cases against multinationals.
Members will know that such cases are lengthy, taking several years, if not decades, to bring to court. Teams of lawyers are required to work overseas, often in group actions, and, as in the South African miners’ case against Cape plc, companies seek to cover the impact of their actions, creating significant difficulties for lawyers gathering evidence to put before courts.
Such cases are not eligible for legal aid. They are brought under a conditional fee agreement or a no win, no fee basis. Given the costs and risk incurred, law firms rely on the success fee to cushion them and to future-fund other cases. As the success fee will no longer be recoverable, the ability to take a case will be severely restricted. The success fee costs us nothing: it is paid by the defendant, but it is vital.
Taken with the proposal to prevent claimants from recovering after-the-event insurance, that will be absolutely devastating. The Government accept that, because of the high costs, this approach is not appropriate for clinical negligence cases. I urge them to think again about these cases, which are similar in terms of the high costs incurred in taking cases to court.
Proposals outside the Bill make the situation worse. The Government intend to introduce a proportionality rule so that costs awarded do not exceed compensation in successful cases. In the cases I have mentioned there is a particular problem with that. Since 2009, the Rome II regulation has meant that compensation awarded to victims is based on the country where the harm was done, but the costs in the UK are considerably higher and will outstrip the compensation. That is why there is a particular issue in this case. Taken together, the three measures will mean that it will be impossible for victims of human rights abuses to get redress.
There are countless examples of where harm has been done. Many Members on both sides of the House fought hard on the Trafigura case in Ivory Coast. There is also Cape plc in South Africa and Rio Blanco in Peru. Victims cannot usually get redress at home, which is why it falls to the UK to act. That is no surprise when we consider that the power of such companies often outstrips the power of the states in which they operate. Wal-Mart has a turnover of $414 billion, which would make it the 26th biggest economy in the world, ranking just behind Norway. It is no wonder that people cannot get redress in their home states.
Last week, the Lord Chancellor told me in answer to a question that he would stand up for the small man. One cannot get much smaller or more voiceless than the people I am describing but his proposals will make the situation much worse, not better. That is not just my view but that of Amnesty International and Friends of the Earth. It is also the view of Professor John Ruggie, the UN special representative on business and human rights, and of Michael Mansfield QC. On this specific issue, he said that the proposals were a
“flagrant violation of the coalition’s own commitment to human rights.”
That is why I am asking for exemption in these particular cases.
Speaking at a packed meeting for MPs that I hosted last week, the US Assistant Secretary of State for Democracy, Human Rights and Labour, Mike Posner, said that the impact of business will be the defining human rights issue of the 21st century. He said that in the wake of a landmark resolution passed unanimously by the UN this month. It was a landmark in that it was the first time in the 65-year history of the UN that a resolution that was not negotiated by the UN has been passed unanimously.
The UK should be leading the way on this issue. It will cost absolutely nothing, but the cost will be devastating for some of the most vulnerable people in the world if we fail to act.
Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)
I welcome the continuing focus of Ministers on tackling the country’s appalling levels of reoffending, which we have heard a lot about. I want to focus my comments on the need to tackle drugs dependency among prisoners, not least because to reduce reoffending is to reduce the number of victims, a point to which many hon. Members have returned.
For many low-level offenders, turning them away from crime back to the law-abiding majority depends on a system of rehabilitation that works. The one that we inherited is clearly flawed. Reoffending rates for short prison sentences of less than 12 months had increased to 61% in 2008.
The statistics linking drug addiction among prisoners and reoffending rates are stark. Evidence submitted to the “Breaking the Cycle” Green Paper stated that, from a sample of offenders, 62% of those who had taken drugs in the four weeks prior to custody were reconvicted within a year of leaving prison. That compared to 30% reconviction rates among prisoners who had never used drugs. If we want to address recidivism, tackling drug taking in prison must come incredibly high on the agenda, not least stopping prisoners getting a habit inside, on which we have heard some horrendous statistics.
Like my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd), I welcome the pilot programme of drug-free wings in our prisons. We have all said that we would prefer that the need for them were the exception rather than the rule, but the reality of our prison system is that people go to extraordinary lengths to smuggle illegal drugs in. The Ministry of Justice’s own survey last November found that 19% of offenders questioned had tried heroin for the first time in prison, so it is a vital subject to tackle and an abject record that we have inherited.
I very much welcome the fact that the Ministry of Justice and the Home Office are showing joined-up thinking on this. The Home Office’s drug strategy 2010 document sets out clearly the need to tackle the counter-productive influence of drugs in prison, boosting intelligence capabilities and security technology in prisons. Those are both key factors in dealing with the problem. Both the Home Office and the Ministry of Justice have highlighted the need for integrated support to help drug-reliant offenders.
This Government are taking a proactive approach to rehabilitating and supporting prisoners addicted to drugs, both illegal and prescription. Some who are released do not want to go on to commit other offences but their reliance on substances is the route to reoffending. Many of them want to free themselves from drugs but instead slip through the net. One is a constituent who wrote to me earlier this year who was coming to the end of an 18-month sentence. After a course of painkillers in prison, he became addicted to significant doses of diazepam. He was desperate to get off drugs before he was released. He knew that if he was released addicted, he would be drawn back towards the same circle of people and propelled back into crime. I was able to help him, but he told me he had exhausted all other avenues of getting help, and that cannot be right. He subsequently found help in the community with an ex-offenders charity. He is now training in a useful skill, and even hopes to start a small business. That is a positive story, but I fear it does not apply for far too many people. Many people are simply released still addicted to drugs and in a vulnerable state, and are then sucked back into the same criminal circles, making it almost inevitable that they will relapse.
There is clearly great benefit in taking a proactive and multidisciplinary approach to tackling this problem. If drug recovery wings are successful, I hope that the pilot will be rapidly expanded, particularly as they have proved to be especially successful for women. I also agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Hastings and Rye that we should aspire to have drug-free prisons, and there are some good examples from around the world. The Sheridan correctional facility in Illinois was reopened as a purpose-built drug rehab prison in 2004 and has had some very encouraging results over the last eight years. The reoffending rates of the prisoners released from there are between 20% and 50% lower than for those released from traditional facilities in Illinois.
Reducing reoffending rates and tackling drug addiction have both a clear economic benefit, as has been discussed, and a clear social benefit. We want fewer victims of crime, and we want to help offenders get clean and go straight, and get a job, pay their taxes and keep their families together. I welcome the Secretary of State’s approach on this matter.
Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to be called to speak in this debate, but I shall follow the Whip’s advice and be as brief as possible as I know that many other Members wish to contribute.
My interest in the penal system began when I was 19, when I did work experience—or what might now be called an internship—at HMP Frankland, a category A prison with every one of its inmates serving a sentence of more than four years. I worked there for six months, and later in my career I worked at YOI Deerbolt, followed by a stretch at Dartmoor before returning to Frankland. I have therefore seen a bit of life inside.
I commend the Secretary of State on his ambition and on the headline of “rehabilitation revolution”, because that is undoubtedly what is needed. The problem, however, is that despite the headline, the story he is attempting to tell is full of unfinished or unwritten chapters. When the Bill reaches Committee, I hope that Committee members will seek to find the answers to the outstanding questions, because there are a lot of holes in the information that we have been given so far.
I am at odds with some of my party colleagues in that I am a fan of imprisonment for public protection. When I was working at Frankland—a dispersal prison—in the early ’90s, which was a pre-indeterminate sentences era, some category A inmates who had served life sentences and had not been recommended for de-categorisation through the prison system were set free, even though their probation report, psychology report, education report and personal officer report said, “This inmate will reoffend. He is a danger.” That did not happen very often, but it did happen. Some such inmates were released, and there was nothing we could do about it. The courts could do nothing about it; that was the system at the time. It is good that we no longer have that, but I hope that when the IPP system is reviewed the Secretary of State will take great care to ensure that public protection is at the forefront of his mind, rather than reducing the number of IPP inmates.
I know there are strong calls from inmates and their families for the system to be reformed, but the essence of these sentences must remain in place. There is a place for indeterminate sentencing in our system. When an inmate says to me, “Miss, I’m on an IPP, what can I do about it?” I say, “Sort yourself out. First, admit your guilt.” It is amazing how many people fail to do that, and until someone has confronted their own internal offending behaviour, there is absolutely no point whatever in sending them on any course—any anger management, drugs rehabilitation or social skills course—because it will not succeed until they have confronted their offending behaviour.
The thing that upsets me most about the Bill is the lack of concern for victims. The fandango that we went through on 50% reductions and discounts in sentences was an insult to victims. The recent treatment in court of Milly Dowler’s parents lacked any trace of humanity whatever. It is appropriate for the Secretary of State to say, “This is not acceptable. I will look at this and do something about it.” In any case, we need more than words. We need clear actions to put a stop to that kind of behaviour in court. It damages not only individuals but future witnesses, and victims will be less likely or willing to put themselves in that position—I do not blame them.
Opposition Members are frequently asked, “What should happen?” As someone who has worked in prisons, I have some very strong views on that. I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with the Prison Officers Association. I disagree with the POA on private prisons—I believe that there is a role for them—but we need more openness. The hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) has said that she would welcome the increased use of private prisons. She might have a point, but I would not welcome that until we can find out, using the freedom of information method, what they do on rehabilitation, what their outcomes are, how they treat their staff and what medical provision they offer. At the moment, we cannot do that.
Prison officers have no idea when an inmate has gone on to reoffend, unless the inmate goes back on to their wing. Closing that feedback loop of information to include sentencers, prison officers and probation officers is essential if the Secretary of State is to get anywhere near to a rehabilitation revolution. I can tell him that with his current proposals, he will get nowhere near that. He should cut the rhetoric and the hubris, and he should get down to some real policies that will make a difference.
Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
I welcome the Bill’s focus on making the criminal justice system more victim oriented. In the few minutes allowed, I shall focus my contribution on what more can be done in the Bill to help to prosecute and punish offenders for the crime of child sexual exploitation.
Despite being a mother of three children, I was unaware that horrendous crimes were being perpetrated in my community—crimes of online grooming, and the sexual abuse and rape of children. Like most of my constituents, as the news broke of the prosecution of Michael Williams last year, I found it difficult to believe that such crimes were possible in this century and this country, and especially in the community where I grew up.
A few months later, the further revelation of six men operating a paedophile ring in my part of Cornwall—it was uncovered and prosecuted by Devon and Cornwall police’s Operation Lakeland—forced me to find out more about the horrendous crimes that those men perpetrated against children as young as five years old. I am impressed by the determination to tackle and prevent that and to raise awareness shown by the Home Secretary, the Under-Secretary of State for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), who has responsibility for children, and the Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Old Bexley and Sidcup (James Brokenshire), who has responsibility for crime prevention. However, they need some help from their colleagues in the Ministry of Justice in two respects. First, the Ministry of Justice could improve support for young witnesses who give evidence in criminal proceedings, and secondly, it could improve sentencing policy.
As with all crimes, to secure successful prosecutions witnesses must be prepared to come forward, give evidence and be cross-examined in court. Unless witnesses, their families and carers believe that they will be supported and fairly treated when they go to court, they will not come forward. I am grateful to Sheila Taylor of Safe and Sound Derby who has given me information on cases that vividly illustrate why the current system must change.
The first case concerns a 15-year-old girl who was repeatedly sexually abused. She was forced to give evidence in court for eight days, and she was cross-examined by a team of nine defence lawyers, including, on one occasion, by five in a row, working as a team to try to undermine her evidence. Although the court showed respect for the defendant’s human rights, there was no understanding of how the crimes perpetrated against the victim had left her a vulnerable and terrified witness. She was physically sick every day before she came to court and became so traumatised by the experience that she ran away from home during the case. Sadly, the case was dropped. The second case concerns a girl who, when shown into the witness box, found that the screens promised to her to prevent her from having to see the people who had abused her had been forgotten. Seeing the men who had sexually abused her, she understandably became hysterical. As such, she was deemed unfit to give evidence, and again the case was dropped.
I want to improve the experience and cross-examination of children in our courts. I am fully aware that the Ministry of Justice has prioritised this concern with the recent publication of “Achieving Best Evidence in Criminal Proceedings: Guidance on Interviewing Victims and Witnesses, and Using Special Measures”. However, there is still an issue about how to get legal practitioners to use it. The majority of cases that go to trial at the Crown court have first to go through a plea and case management hearing. According to Crown Prosecution Service guidance, a PCMH is compulsory only where the child is a defendant but not a victim. That should be changed.
Such a hearing should be compulsory for both a child defendant and complainant, because the PCMH, which is purely an administrative hearing at which outstanding issues of law or procedure are dealt with by the judge before trial or evidence commencement, provides the judge with an opportunity to give a direction to all counsel that they should abide by the Ministry’s own “Best Evidence” publication when dealing with young witnesses, be they defendants or complainants. If such judicial direction was made compulsory at the PCMH, lawyers could not say that they had no knowledge of such information or that their approach was the norm in practice.
Furthermore, some judges need to be made aware of this issue and be encouraged to intervene when questioning methods are inappropriate. Publishing guidance for judges in the criminal procedures rules would greatly improve good practice. I believe that the Government really want to make our criminal justice system more victim-orientated. What better place to start than with the children and young people who are the victims of the most horrendous of crimes? What better way to convince them and society as a whole that we consider these crimes to be totally unacceptable than by ensuring that perpetrators serve long sentences, including life sentences—sentences designed to ensure that they will not be released until they have demonstrated that they have effectively controlled their sexual urges and can resist reoffending.
For the victims, the combination of the crimes perpetrated against them, even when the disclosure and subsequent support is excellent, and the experience of giving evidence in court can give them a lifelong sentence of suffering. Is this fair? Surely, the life sentence should go to the perpetrator not the victim. I urge the Government, therefore, while the Bill passes through the House—
Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)
I want to speak today about legal aid and social welfare law, not because I am an expert in either, but by drawing on my many years’ experience in education and my year as a new MP. Before that, however, I want to comment on today’s debate. As with many debates, some hon. Members have popped in, ranted a bit and left, but overall this afternoon I have sat through some of the most informed and thoughtful contributions that I have ever heard in the House. They have come from Members on both sides of the House and indicate the level of concern on both sides. It was a shame that the Lord Chancellor was not here for the contributions from his colleagues the hon. Members for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) and for Dewsbury (Simon Reevell).
Pat Glass
I am pleased that the Lord Chancellor listened to those contributions, because they were worth hearing.
If legal aid for social welfare law, which currently funds advice centres and, in some instances, representation for people with such problems, stops being available, it will affect large numbers of people. I particularly want to discuss parents who have issues with education, disabled people who incorrectly or inappropriately have their access to benefits withdrawn and those who, because of medical negligence, need access to additional resources and support.
I have worked in education for many years, and I have seen many parents who were very angry that their children had been refused admission to their preferred school. Most of the parents I have come across were quite capable of standing up for themselves and their children in admissions appeals, but some needed additional help. I welcome the Government’s recent moves to take out of these proposals access to legal aid to support parents who need advice on preparing special educational needs tribunals. Nevertheless, if the proposals go through, vulnerable parents, or parents who have SEN themselves, will no longer be able to get the advice they need on admissions or exclusions. We all accept that middle-class, educated and socially mobile parents are best placed to get their children into the schools of their choice and that it is the more vulnerable, poorly educated and socially immobile parents who are least successful in the admissions process. Some 70% of pupils who are excluded from school have SEN in some form or other, and many of their parents also have SEN. Those people need advice and representation, but that will no longer be available to them.
Last Friday, I met representatives of my local citizens advice bureau in Consett who told me that they are bracing themselves for the increased numbers of people who will come to them as a result of changes in welfare reform. My constituency office staff and I are making arrangements and preparing ourselves for the increased work load as people are reassessed for disability living allowance and employment support and are put through new assessments.
At my surgery on Saturday, I met an elderly couple who told me that their middle-aged daughter had received notification of a forthcoming review. She has severe learning difficulties and mental health problems but no physical or visible disability. The mother broke down in tears as she told me that her daughter was eagerly looking forward to telling the people at the interview how well she could look after herself, cook for herself and dress herself appropriately, none of which is true. However, although none of it is true, it will have an immediate effect on her access to benefits. I have no doubt whatever that the decision will be overturned on appeal, but the parents told me that they have had years of being burdened down by caring, anxiety and worry about the future, and that they simply cannot face another battle with the benefits agency and the appeals people. In the past, I would have been able to signpost those people to the right kind of legal advice, but I will not be able to do that in future.
If the proposals go through, there will no longer be access to legal aid for housing matters. As a new MP, I have been stunned by the amount of casework I have had on housing, none of which is trivial. Those cases are not about people who fancy a council house, but about people have real priority needs, such as elderly couples who are now disabled, a lady who has gone blind, disabled young people who need access to appropriate housing and people who are at risk of losing their homes. Legal aid will no longer be available to those people when their landlord, housing company or local authority fails to meet their statutory duties.
Legal aid will no longer be available to fund help and representation in cases of medical negligence. In my job before I came to Parliament I worked with a number of parents whose children suffered profound and multiple learning, physical and sometimes medical needs as a result of medical negligence. Using legal aid, those parents were able to secure a financial future for their child, to adapt their homes and to access therapy that would improve their children’s lives. That will no longer be available to them. I think that the most vulnerable in society will be affected by the measures and I ask the Lord Chancellor to reconsider these matters, but I do not have the slightest hope that he will.
Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)
There can be no doubt that change is needed in this area. We spend record amounts on the criminal justice system and incarcerate record numbers of people, and yet the conveyor belt to crime and the cycle of reoffending remain intact. My hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) listed some of the disturbing reoffending statistics. The cost of offending by ex-prisoners now stands at £11 billion per annum. My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) reminded us of the purposes of imprisonment—retribution, restoration and rehabilitation. We should of course add to those prevention and deterrence. We need to be bold and adventurous in the way that we go about those things because, in the words of the old saying, “If you always do what you always did, you will always get what you always got.”
This is a Second Reading debate, so we are voting on the principles of the Bill, and I shall certainly vote in favour. On legal aid, there are clearly considerable concerns about several aspects that will have to be carefully considered. It is also undeniable, however, that we need to deal with the much-increased bill for legal aid. The hon. Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham) thought that the shadow Secretary of State had listed how he and his party would go about doing that, because the right hon. Gentleman said on several occasions that he was about to do so, but I am afraid that we never quite got that list.
Prison, at its heart, is about punishment, but it is also, vitally, about rehabilitation. Several hon. Members have talked about the importance of getting prisoners off drugs, and of course alcohol as well, but there are other important aspects of helping offenders to prepare for life on the outside and improving their ability to live a full, positive and constructive life. I want to touch on one of those, work, and the related matter of financial capability. A lot of good work is done on work in prisons by the likes of DHL, Travis Perkins, Cisco Systems and Timpson; I am delighted that the eponymous Member, my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr Timpson), is with us for this debate. In spite of that good work, less than a third of the prison population is in work in prison at any one time and, on average, prisoners do only 12 hours of work a week. That tends to suggest that we are still not nearly sufficiently far enough advanced from the situation in 2005, when the Home Affairs Committee described prison industries as being largely “peripheral” to the way in which the Prison Service went about its business.
I strongly welcome, in the Bill and in the Government’s approach, the commitment that prisons should be places of hard work and industry. Two aspects are particularly welcome: first, the ability to make deductions from work wages to go to support victims; and secondly, the ability to make deductions to create a savings account for the prisoner for when they eventually leave prison. If we are to realise those two ambitions to a significant degree, we will have to find ways to ensure that work in prison is of higher value so those deductions that can be afforded.
Debt and lack of financial capability is an acknowledged central factor in ex-offenders being unable to adjust properly to life outside prison and eventually in reoffending. Work by Paul Jones at Liverpool John Moore’s university identifies a clear statistical link in that prisoners who leave and are then able to open a bank account, with all the things that that leads to, including work, are much less likely to reoffend. In some prisons, there are already very encouraging pilots involving financial capability. The probation service, including in my own county of Hampshire, helps prisoners to deal with things such as budgeting and the advantages of opening a bank account.
Classes, and so on, are one thing, but there is no substitute for the practice of actually using financial services. That is why the ability to build up a small savings account is important, not so much for the amount of money involved, which would always be small, but in trying to encourage the development of a savings habit. I acknowledge the role already played by credit unions such as Leeds City Credit Union in working with prisons in this respect. More broadly, I hope that the Bill can facilitate an expansion and extension of payment by results, which I fully accept has a cross-party provenance, and rightly so. I hope that that will help to integrate work within prison and on release as a specialist and intensive branch of the Work programme.
I welcome the Bill because it has at its heart proper sentences that the public can have confidence in, but combines that very plainly with the rehabilitation of offenders by improving their ability to deal with life on the outside, while being innovative and bold in its approach to encouraging incentives and giving rewards for success.
Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)
I feel somewhat unqualified to take part in this debate, because we have heard from a lot of lawyers, and I confess to not being a lawyer. I must admit that I am marrying one at the beginning of August, but he is not affected by these changes.
I will speak about the changes to legal aid and the new provisions on knife crime. I do not stand here today to claim that the current system of legal aid is perfect, because it is not. The Opposition recognise that, and we made a commitment in our manifesto to reforming it, but reforming the system is different from decimating it, and that is what the Government propose to do. This Bill will restrict access to justice to those who can afford to pay, and it will leave some of our poorest and most vulnerable citizens completely defenceless. It is a shameful Bill, and I hope that it will change hugely as it progresses through Parliament.
One of the first occasions on which I had reason to think about the availability of legal aid was when I was a local councillor in Lewisham. I was the cabinet member for regeneration, and I led the council’s work to try to find a new Travellers site. Towards the end of the process, the authority’s decision to build a new site was subject to a judicial review challenge that was funded by legal aid.
I remember hearing how an elderly woman of limited means had been persuaded by her neighbours to front the challenge, and I remember being annoyed by that, questioning in my own mind whether it was right, but as time passed I concluded that it was right: right, because there is a fundamental principle at stake, and right that, irrespective of somebody’s means, they can challenge with the appropriate legal advice and assistance a decision that the state has taken.
Although I appreciate the Government’s plan to retain legal aid for such situations, I think that the principle has to apply across the board. Taking whole areas of social welfare law out of the scope of civil legal aid means that hundreds of thousands of people will not be able to secure the legal advice that they need on housing, education and benefits.
Many decisions challenged using legal aid are taken by the state. They include decisions not to award benefits or to provide housing, and some of that work requires a detailed understanding of the law, yet the Government seem to suggest that people will be able to go it alone. I honestly cannot see how that will work.
Every fortnight I hold my advice surgery, to which many people come with plastic bags full of paperwork, and I spend hours sifting through it with them to find the key document, and to understand what stage of the process they are at and whether they have a right to appeal against a decision. Those people are not the people for whom DIY justice, as my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) described it, is an option.
A few months ago I visited Morrison Spowart, a small firm of legal aid solicitors in my constituency. Solicitors at the firm are paid generally between £25,000 and £30,000. They are not City lawyers earning £100,000, but they do change people’s lives, and they talked me through a case in which a legal aid fee of £174 enabled them to overturn a council decision not to house a family, thereby avoiding a whole number of knock-on costs to the public purse, not to mention the misery that the decision would have caused the parents and children.
Members will know that organisation after organisation has sent out briefings for this Second Reading debate, talking about the false economy of these cuts to legal aid. The list of organisations that make the argument is a long one: the Law Society, Liberty, Shelter, Citizens Advice, the Law Centres Federation and the Child Poverty Action Group. I ask the Minister: are they all wrong? The Government have not listened to the consultation’s respondents, and, as I have already said, the Bill is shameful given what it proposes to do to access to justice.
In the final minute and a half of my speech, I turn to the new provisions on knife crime and the new offence of possessing a knife in aggravated circumstances. I represent a constituency where lives have been devastated by knife crime, and the Government will have to do much better than this Bill.
Last year I researched on YouTube the videos that gangs put up. Young men—probably boys, to be honest—brandish knives on the internet and wave them around in front of the camera as if they are just cigarettes. Tens of thousands of people have viewed these videos and I wonder whether that would qualify as aggravating circumstances. The videos glorify knife crime and the intimidating and aggressive violence that accompanies it, so I ask the Minister to think about such incidents and whether any change can be made to the law to try to tackle the culture that exists around the use of knives—
Heidi Alexander
I only have 30 seconds and many other hon. Members wish to speak—
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. The hon. Gentleman has only just come into the Chamber.
Robert Halfon
I beg your pardon, Mr Deputy Speaker.
Is the hon. Lady aware that knives are often sold on the internet priced with British pound signs and does she agree that action needs to be taken to combat that?
Heidi Alexander
Some of the things that we see on the internet are of huge concern. I tried to get YouTube to take those videos down, but I did not really have a hope in hell of it doing so. I tried to interest Home Office Ministers in the issue and failed. We have to look at what is out there in cyberspace in order to tackle these issues. If anything will entice someone to get involved in knife crime, it might be the idea that they will get their 30 seconds of glory on the internet with 16,000 people looking at their video. Can we think about other ways to tackle this issue?
I do not think that the provisions in the Bill on knife crime will get to the nub of the problem. I cannot see what will really change as a result of these proposals. While I am inclined to support a mandatory sentence for possession of a knife in aggravated circumstances, I question what will really change.
Mr Deputy Speaker
Order. I have three Members to get in, but only 14 minutes left.
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
I will keep my comments brief, Mr Deputy Speaker.
I think that it was the hon. Member for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott) who said that she detected a theme in the contributions from coalition Members: I detect a theme in the contributions of Opposition Members. They criticise the Government for the action that we are taking, acknowledge that they would have done something about legal aid funding themselves, but completely fail to articulate what that alternative would be—[Interruption.] The right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) says that we should look at Hansard. We will do so, but I can assure hon. Members that it will say absolutely nothing about what Labour would have done as an alternative.
What Labour’s proposals amount to is a £65 million cut from legal aid and a significant reduction in the number of firms that could practise legal aid. That would have a very heavy impact on the accessibility and availability of legal aid around the country. When the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) replies to the debate, I hope that he will confirm that that would have been the impact of Labour’s proposals.
It is clear that the legal aid reforms will have a significant impact, and there is no doubt that the changes will have an impact on existing legal aid users. That is why I am pleased that in Justice questions the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), confirmed that the Government have commissioned research on the ability of people on low incomes to access the courts, the availability of appropriately qualified lawyers prepared to undertake publicly funded work and the sustainability of legal services provided by bodies such as Citizens Advice. I hope that that research will become available very soon, so that we can assess the impact.
We need to keep these matters under review, especially in relation to litigants in person—an issue that the NSPCC raised with me, as I am sure it and other organisations have raised it with many other hon. Members. In a debate in the Justice Committee, the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) raised the issue of litigants in person—[Interruption.] He has woken up and is back with us. Given that exchange, I am pleased that my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary also said that a report is being commissioned at the moment on litigants in person, and he may be able to use this opportunity to confirm when that report will be published and whether it will include significant proposals on how we can ensure that the court process is simplified.
Tom Brake
It would be more appropriate for the Minister to respond at the end.
Clearly, we are pleased that the concerns over the definition of domestic violence have been taken on board. I would have liked to have covered many other areas, including drug recovery wings, prisoner working and, as a starting point, prisoner volunteering—the listener schemes are very effective in that respect. I would also have liked to discuss the support that is provided to prisoners on release. Certainly there are some good organisations involved in that work, including Vision Housing, which is based in my constituency. It provides not only housing for ex-offenders but the support to ensure that they do not reoffend.
Finally, it is entirely appropriate for the Government to undertake a review of indeterminate sentences. The issue was identified many years ago by, among others, Lord Carlile, whom Opposition Members like to quote. In relation to IPPs, he said:
“The consequence of the IPP provision has been unpredicted, remains unpredictable and is shocking to many.”—[Official Report, House of Lords, 11 December 2007; Vol. 697, c. 189.]
The views of Lord Carlile in 2007 are likely to be repeated by many Members today.
I would have also liked to touch on the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974, restorative justice schemes and the age of criminal responsibility, which I suspect might have been somewhat controversial.
In conclusion, this Bill contains many sound proposals. It is in good shape, but it is not perfectly formed yet. There are issues that we will need to address in Committee, but the Bill is making headway on our priorities, including tackling the scandal of reoffending and ensuring that providers are paid for by results, which will have a huge impact on the success of rehabilitation and on our ability to deliver a justice system that works.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
In the short time that is available, let me highlight two or three points. First, in looking at meaningful and appropriate sentences, it is very important to ensure that community penalties are well designed and right. I welcome the recognition that Ministers are giving to the significance of such an aim. I am concerned that as further cuts have to be found in the justice budget, it will be probation that will bear the brunt.
The probation service in my constituency is already facing a 24% funding cut over three years. It has told me absolutely clearly that it cannot take any further cut without it compromising both the protection of the public and its ability to run programmes that will contribute to the reduction in reoffending that we all seek. It is particularly concerned that its ability to manage prolific offenders will be compromised if it has to undergo further cuts. The cuts will have an impact not just on the probation service, but—because of the multi-agency approach that it adopts for the management of prolific offenders—on those outside the ambit of the Lord Chancellor’s control, such as the police. The service is very anxious indeed that the cuts will have a damaging affect on its work.
Secondly, payment by results is a model that has been accepted across the House. None the less, it is important that we ensure that we design the models to secure the results that we want. In particular, we must not create short-term contracts. We cannot be rewarding organisations for keeping people out of the criminal justice system only for a very short period after they emerge from whatever sentence they have undergone. Let us ensure that these contracts are of a sufficient length to challenge providers to achieve long-term reductions in reoffending and that we make use of the best and most expert support from the private and voluntary sectors. There is much to be learned. I hope that the Lord Chancellor will use the experience that was gained from the provision and design of the Work programme. The role of voluntary and specialist providers was very much to pick up some crumbs from the private sector table rather than to have a proactive approach in helping to design the best- quality programmes.
Thirdly, let me briefly cover prisoner working. I welcome the intention to extend prisoner working and the comments that the Lord Chancellor made in response to a question from me recently in relation to ensuring that prisoner working would be not just any old work but meaningful work that would improve long-term employability, with an important link to prisoner education too. I hope that, as we consider the Bill, the Lord Chancellor can give us more information on prisoner working and tell us how exactly how the employability programmes run by the probation service will correlate with the DWP’s Work programme, which was alluded to by the hon. Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds).
I must tell the Lord Chancellor that there are some fears. For example, my probation service runs effective employability programmes for the offenders under its management that may not be what the DWP is looking for in the Work programme. It would seem extremely foolish to unwind effective programmes run in the criminal justice system, when a good bit of coherent planning across Departments could ensure that we have the best Work programme for those who are in the criminal justice system.
Finally, may I tell the Lord Chancellor that the prisoner working that has been available so far has not been brilliantly well-designed for women in custody? We need to consider how it can meet women’s needs while in custody and when they leave it, so that they can access the labour market. I am pleased that the Government are continuing with many of the reforms to the women’s custodial system that we began to put in place when in government, following Baroness Corston’s excellent recommendations, but I regret that we have now apparently lost a ministerial champion for women in the penal system. I strongly urge the Lord Chancellor to think about reinstating that important post to ensure that a focus on women in the custodial system remains centre stage.
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate. I declare an interest as a legal aid practitioner for nearly 20 years and a recorder of a Crown court. I am one of those damned lawyers, I am afraid to say, and I apologise for that at the beginning of my speech.
I was particularly struck by the measured and reasonable contribution of the hon. Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green). I have great respect for the hon. Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander), whose parents live in my constituency, and her contribution was excellent. If only the debate about legal aid and sentencing was heard in those tones throughout the House and in the media.
Twenty years ago, criminal justice and sentencing was not a matter for great and low party politics; it was a matter for measured discussion. There were occasional criminal justice Acts, to tidy up a system that was perhaps at times not keeping pace with the changes in our society, but then something got into the DNA of the body politic and things took a turn for the worse. Egged on by the populist press, politicians from both sides of the House got into an arms race about being tough on crime, as opposed to being soft.
Where are we now, 20 years later? We have ended up being just plain stupid on the subject—stupid in the amount of legislation that we have passed; stupid in the language that we have used about crime and criminality; and stupid and vain to claim that politicians’ actions in the House can have a significant effect on crime rates in this country. We know the real reasons why crime rises and falls; they are economic, familial and social. They relate to a range of issues that are best dealt with by means of crime prevention and social policy.
Opposition Members should take my speech in its intended spirit—that of cross-party co-operation. I invite them to make constructive proposals about what to do with our broken system. If they had got into power, they would have had to deal with the system.
Mr Buckland
No; I am afraid that I will not take interventions, as there is no time. I say that with great respect to the right hon. Gentleman, who has much experience in these matters. I am sure that he will forgive me, but there is a lot that I need to say. This is my first opportunity in 20 years to speak about criminal justice legislation from this side of the fence. I have been one of the people dealing with the reality of the impact of year after year of incontinence in legislation.
Court staff, practitioners and judges have all had to deal with the baleful consequences of the avalanche of work that ill-judged reform, sponsored by, among others, the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), who had the brass neck to come to the House today and tell us that, under his guidance, all was well with the world. He would not allow me to intervene on him. Had I done so—I am grateful that he is here—I would have reminded him about sentences of indeterminate length for public protection and the chaos that that system caused the Government. They were warned by the Court of Appeal that the system that they had introduced was in danger of being untenable.
As a result, the Government passed an Act in 2008 to amend the system, but it was still a bad system, because it was not transparent to the victims. When victims of crime went to court and heard about sentences of indeterminate length for public protection, they did not know what that meant; they did not know when the perpetrator of the crime against them was to be released. They did not understand the system. That was a failure of transparency. It was the single most important failure of the regime, which is why I will be glad after the review to see the back of the system and to see clear, long, determinate sentences with automatic release after two thirds of time is served. We have been here before; that was the system that existed before the Criminal Justice Act 2003. Sentences of longer than four years attracted automatic release after two thirds of the time was served. The merry-go-round has come around again.
Opposition Members say that the Bill is imperfect. That is inevitable, because it must undo years of damage inflicted by their party. The Bill is not finished business; I accept that. It would be good to have a consolidation Act to bring sentencing provisions under one umbrella. I pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Blackburn for doing so in 2000 with an excellent measure, but within two years it was all upended again by some brave new policy initiative designed to assuage the populist press. It is time to end the charade in the debate on criminal justice. It is time to start talking clever rather than tough. It is time to change the ambit of the debate. The Bill gives us an opportunity to do so, which is why I will support it on Second Reading.
Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
This has been a mature and authoritative debate, and a better debate than this Bill deserves. Some 29 right hon. and hon. Members have spoken from the Back Benches, and by my reckoning, only four gave the Government unqualified or nearly unqualified support: the hon. Members for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) and for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti), the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry)—no surprise there—and the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake)—and increasingly no surprise there either.
Many Members spoke about cuts to legal aid and advice: my hon. Friend the Member for Houghton and Sunderland South (Bridget Phillipson); the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd); my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner); my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman); the hon. Member for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd); and my hon. Friends the Members for Birmingham, Erdington (Jack Dromey), for North West Durham (Pat Glass) and for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander).
Many Members discussed their concerns about the Bill’s sentencing provisions, including the hon. Members for Shipley (Philip Davies), for Dewsbury (Simon Reevell) and for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) and my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mrs Chapman). My right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) made a forensic examination of the appalling provisions on remand. My right hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael) discussed the cuts in youth offending that occurred under the Labour Government. We heard from the Chairman of the Select Committee on Justice that the inefficiency of Departments is partly responsible for legal aid costs. My hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) told us about cuts to the probation service. My hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) gave a fine speech about conditional fee agreements and their importance in multi-party actions, particularly against large corporations. The hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) spoke movingly about victims, the hon. Member for Battersea (Jane Ellison) spoke about drug dependency and the hon. Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) spoke about reoffending.
They were all excellent speeches, but I will mention three or four in particular. The hon. Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant) spoke about the need for litigation in some cases, despite what the Lord Chancellor says. My hon. Friend the Member for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue) spoke from experience about the effects that the cuts will have on citizens advice bureaux and advice services. The hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips) spoke about the need for sentencing reform and—I hope that I am not putting words in his mouth—the reasons why this Bill will not deliver it. Notwithstanding his tone, the hon. Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) made a fine speech. Those and many other speeches came from knowledge and experience of the criminal and civil justice system over many years. Therefore, whatever side of the House they came from, I hope that the Government will heed them.
The Bill was supposed to launch a rehabilitation revolution. Then the spin doctors decided that it would be the Bill to punish offenders, but it is neither. It is a damaging and unfunded mess. It will not protect the public, reduce crime, support victims or reform offenders, but do the opposite. It will place victims at risk, cut access to justice for all but the wealthiest and take away even basic legal advice and representation from the most vulnerable in society.
Legal aid, no win, no fee litigation, remand pending trial, access to legal advice on arrest, and a system that diverts young people from offending are coherent parts of a coherent justice system that is envied around the world. The Government put that at risk through the Bill. A dizzying series of U-turns on sentencing and swingeing cuts to police, probation and youth offending teams have created a shambles that will not keep us safe in the short term or lower prison numbers in the long term. We have already had the first warning. Yesterday’s figures show that, under this Government, crime in London is increasing, not decreasing, for the first time in years.
Access to legal aid for the poorest and most vulnerable people will now be the exception, not the rule. Cutting legal aid for housing, education, welfare benefits, debt and family cases will be an economic as well as a social disaster. That is the view of 5,000 individuals and organisations, many with decades of experience, expressed in their responses to the Government’s consultation. Citizens Advice, the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, Shelter, the Law Centres Federation, the Children’s Society and End Violence Against Women, to name but a few, explained why legal help and representation is good value for money. It is provided by lawyers who earn, on average, less than £25,000, citizens advice bureaux staff and volunteers, supplemented with pro bono advice. They explained why helping people at an early stage prevents homelessness, debt, family breakdown and crime, which end up costing society and the Treasury far more in the long run. They also explained—it should not be necessary to do so, but it is for this Government—the moral duty of a civilised society to support those most in need in the times of greatest stress.
The Government’s impact assessments confirm that women, children, disabled people and minority groups will suffer disproportionately from the cuts, to which the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr Djanogly), who is responsible for legal aid, responds, “What do you expect? They’re the ones getting legal aid now.” The Under-Secretary sounds increasingly like Marie Antoinette. I will do what the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington asked and cite Lord Carlile. Last week, at a meeting of the all-party parliamentary group on legal aid, Lord Carlile put a compelling case to the Under-Secretary. He asked:
“What would the Minister tell the mother of a child with catastrophic injuries caused by clinical negligence who could no longer get legal aid?”
The response was:
“I don’t know. She’d better ask a lawyer.”
Despite the Lord Chancellor’s protestations, the Government have not listened to the women’s institute or Amnesty on domestic violence. They have not listened to people such as Jeannie Bloomfield, president of the women’s institute in Suffolk, who survived domestic violence years ago and has become an advocate for those who suffer it today. She wrote to me, fearful for the future. She said that, under the Government’s definition of domestic violence, she would not have received the legal aid that allowed her and her daughters to escape abuse. Under the plans, the Government will abandon many women like Jeannie.
Let us also consider the Government’s meddling with civil litigation.
Stephen Phillips
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way and for his remarks about my speech. He will remember that I made the point that we had heard nothing from the Opposition about what they would do, given that the shadow Lord Chancellor again accepted in his speech that cuts had to be made to legal aid. The hon. Gentleman told me to read Hansard. I have done that and I am none the wiser. The information is not there. I wonder whether he would like to apologise to me and the House for inadvertently misleading it. What cuts would the Opposition make if they were in government?
Mr Slaughter
I am delighted to respond to that. I thought that the hon. and learned Gentleman had slightly more perception. He should look at the Green Paper that was published on 22 March 2010, entitled “Restructuring the Delivery of Criminal Defence Services”. That is the document to which my right hon. Friend the shadow Chancellor and I referred. How many more times do we have to explain it to the hon. and learned Gentleman? [Interruption.] The Lord Chancellor, who has only opened the Bill for the first time today, could perhaps go and look at the document himself.
Turning to the Government’s meddling with civil litigation, they justify the need to upend no win, no fee by reference to the compensation culture, but their own investigation, led by Lord Young of Graffham, found:
“The problem of the compensation culture prevalent in society today is one of perception rather than reality.”
The Government are legislating to fit false perceptions. A system that allows people on moderate incomes to access justice is being overturned to please the insurance industry and large corporations.
While the justification for reform may be imagined, the victims are all too real: children brain-damaged by medical negligence, workers injured by unsafe machinery or suffering industrial disease and, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) said, hundreds of thousands of overseas victims of multinational companies in cases like Trafigura.
Again, public money will be wasted. The Revenue has objected that insolvency cases in which it is a major creditor will not come to court in the future. The NHS and the Department for Work and Pensions will have to pick up the tab for individuals who cannot get compensation from those that harmed them. There is a need to control costs of civil cases; all parties agree on that. We were already doing that by controlling costs in road traffic claims, which are 75% of all personal injury claims. Costs could be further controlled by capping success fees and encouraging early settlement by both parties, but the Government prefer to put all the onus on claimants and force them to pay up to 25% of the damages that they have been justly awarded. A Supreme Court judge, Baroness Hale, warned this week that we risk returning to an England where justice is denied to all but the rich.
Finally, we come to sentencing. What a mess. What an extraordinary debacle—the product of a Government who just don’t get it on law and order. The coalition agreement promised a full review of sentencing. This is the opposite: a mixture of U-turns, delays, false promises and sleights of hand. Some things that were in the Bill are now out, like 50% discounts. Some, such as indeterminate sentences, have gone off for even more consultation. Some, such as the new knives offence, have been added with the ink hardly dry. Some may be added later, on burglary and squatting. Many of the tough measures announced by the Prime Minister are not in the Bill, but lots of the so-called “soft” measures are. Courts will be allowed to take no action for breach of a community order or impose a fine for breach of a suspended prison sentence. Magistrates’ power to impose sentences of up to 12 months will be repealed rather than implemented. Judges and magistrates will have their hands tied on remand. To limit the use of remand as the Government have done is fundamentally to misunderstand its purpose. Judges, magistrates and victims’ representatives all oppose that measure. It is an extraordinary step for any Government to take. It undermines law and order and the discretion of the judiciary, and it is solely here—as was the sentencing discount—to save money.
Under Labour Governments, crime fell 43% over 13 years. Youth offending fell 34% over the last Parliament alone. That was the product of investment in youth offending teams—which this year will see an average cut of 18% in their budgets—and of a long-term strategy to reduce criminal behaviour. The legacy that we left has been squandered by a Department that is in chaos—a Department of chaos. Cuts of 23% will be achieved by restricting access to justice for the vulnerable, taking money from injured parties, and meddling with sentencing to reduce prison places.
The faults are clear in the process of the Bill—rushed out on the same day as the responses to consultation, rushed to Second Reading in one week and now being rushed into Committee, but with new provisions promised for the autumn and a raft of key measures left for secondary legislation. It is a lazy Bill. It lacks integrity. The Secretary of State should feel embarrassed to present it to the House for Second Reading tonight. I urge all right hon. and hon. Members on all sides to vote against.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Jonathan Djanogly)
We have listened to many considered and knowledgeable speeches today. The breadth of debate has only confirmed the importance of the issues before the House. The Bill contains provisions that would make a significant contribution to our reform of the justice system, and those reforms will deliver justice effectively and affordably, provide value for money for the taxpayer, protect the public from serious and violent offenders and tackle the over-reliance on courts and lawyers.
The Bill will also make an important contribution to the Ministry’s deficit reduction commitment, worth £2 billion by 2014-15. I can confirm that we have engaged widely on the Bill, as my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) recognised. Most of the Bill’s proposals have been subject to three major consultations published last year, and they have been widely debated in the House—indeed, we have had no fewer than nine debates on our justice reforms since December last year. There have been hundreds of oral and written parliamentary questions and legal aid has been the subject of one Justice Committee inquiry and one report. I am looking forward to the Public Bill Committee, where we will continue these debates.
Many important issues have been raised and I shall refer to a number of them. The point about getting a balance between sentencing and punishment was made by my hon. Friends the Members for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) and for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake). In that context, I note that the length of sentence is important, but what happens within the sentence is just as important for punishment and rehabilitation.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate (Mr Burrowes) noted, for too long prisoners have spent their time in prison lying around and doing nothing. We want to make criminals work hard, an issue discussed very well by my hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire. Prisoners, some of whom hardly know the meaning of work, will face the tough discipline of a regular working week of up to 40 hours. As we refocus prison regimes around work, we will create more opportunities to make prisoners pay back to their victims. The Bill includes a new power to take a portion of money earned by offenders to help victims. Offenders serving community sentences will work longer and harder on unpaid work.
My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Nadine Dorries) spoke strongly in favour of rehabilitation. Her points about private prisons were well taken, although the savings involved will depend on the prisons concerned. To answer the point made by the right hon. Member for Tooting (Sadiq Khan) about knives, the Bill will send a clear message that those who possess a knife to threaten and endanger can expect to face a minimum prison sentence. My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate spoke strongly about that; I agree that we must check its interaction with other offences. That point was also made in a different way by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) and the hon. Member for Lewisham East (Heidi Alexander). I note, however, that this is not an all-embracing review of knife crime; it is filling a gap in existing legislation. We will be looking at the practical issues mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury (Simon Reevell).
Indeterminate sentences were a contentious issue for a number of Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley and the hon. Member for Darlington (Mrs Chapman). Others, such as the right hon. Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd (Mr Llwyd) and my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe, supported the proposals. We will review indeterminate sentences with a view to replacing them with a clear, tough, predictable system of long, determinate sentences—the best way to punish criminals for their crimes and reform them so that, on release, they are no longer a danger to the public. We will complete the review by the autumn and bring forward our proposals for reform.
The right hon. Member for Tooting said that Labour would limit the use of indeterminate public protection sentences, but in reality by the time Labour had left power, those had gone out of control, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) explained in his excellent contribution. The Bill will also change the law to allow courts to hand down tougher punishments when prison is not an option. As part of community sentences, courts will be able to impose tougher curfews for longer periods, detaining offenders in their own homes with electronic tags to help enforce those curfews.
I am pleased to confirm to my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley that we are not introducing a new requirement on courts directing that the periods that offenders spend tagged on bail should count towards a subsequent prison sentence. As part of the community sentence, courts will also be able to ban offenders from going abroad. We strongly support help for victims, and I tell the hon. Member for Darlington that we will change the law to encourage courts to make more offenders pay compensation directly to their victims.
My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield, Southgate spoke up on the important need to support victims, as did the right hon. Member for Cardiff South and Penarth (Alun Michael), who also used his speech to promote the Youth Justice Board. My hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) spoke up for child victims very strongly.
Fines will not be a soft option. We are launching two schemes, in Norfolk and Cheshire, to seize prized possessions such as cars, TVs and other valuable items from criminals who ignore their fines.
My hon. Friends the Members for Enfield, Southgate and for Enfield North (Nick de Bois), the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) and my hon. Friend the Member for Dewsbury spoke on means-testing for advice given at police stations. I am pleased to be able to confirm that we do not intend to stop paying for police station advice.
On the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley about suspended sentences, a number of judges have asked if the custodial sentence that is suspendable could be increased from 12 months to two years. That would add to judges’ discretion, but it is not a requirement to suspend in cases of offences that could attract two-year sentences.
I can confirm to my hon. Friends the Members for Hastings and Rye (Amber Rudd) and for Battersea (Jane Ellison) that we intend to get more offenders off drugs for good by using drug recovery wings and by cracking down on the use of illicit drugs in prison. Many hon. Members made strong points about that. We also want to create a more transparent sentencing framework, which was elaborated on very well by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips).
Turning to our reforms of legal aid, I would like to thank hon. Members for their contributions.
Mr Straw
Before the Minister turns to legal aid, will he deal with the central proposal in respect of sentencing, which is to restrict the ability of the courts to remand defendants in custody in advance of trial? He skated lightly over that, saying absolutely nothing. Will he confirm what it says on page 166 of the Bill, which is that even where a defendant fails to surrender to bail, that defendant cannot be remanded in custody unless there is a “real prospect” of a custodial sentence? Is that what is intended?
Mr Djanogly
I shall write to the right hon. Gentleman. My understanding is that he is wrong on the issue.
Turning to legal aid, I thank hon. Members who have contributed today and those who have responded to the consultation, along with some 5,000 other people. The Bill sets out those elements of the reform that will require primary legislation. We received a number of detailed alternative proposals from respondents to our consultation, including the Law Society.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. The Minister is not making a speech or addressing the House; he is reading something into the record.
Mr Djanogly
We carefully considered those points in our consultation response, but we are clear that the proposals put forward by respondents do not, overall, represent a realistic alternative to our programme of reform. We can all agree on the need for greater efficiency. That point was made strongly by my right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), and we already plan to deliver £1 billion of the Ministry’s savings through efficiencies. The Justice for All campaign also asked us to improve alternatives to legal processes instead of cutting legal help. The Government seized the point, which is why we are increasing the funding available for mediation by £10 million. Some 50% of the proposals suggested by the Law Society amounted to new taxation, but legal aid is primarily funded out of general taxation, and the Government are seeking to reduce the amount of public spending overall. The deficit is also shared across government, and suggestions of cost shifting will not address the overall financial position.
As the Lord Chancellor said earlier, we have the most expensive legal aid system in the world, except for Northern Ireland. As my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington said, the Opposition have been quick to criticise but they have offered no viable alternative. They profess to want to cut legal aid without saying what they would do. They propose to spend £65 million more on social welfare. Does the right hon. Member for Tooting mean to say that he would cut criminal legal aid? If so, by how much would he cut it? By the way, we have looked into the proposals of 20 March 2010, and they were on criminal competitive tendering, so where will the right hon. Gentleman get his savings? This is an unsustainable level of expenditure. In some cases the system encourages people to bring issues before courts where other solutions might be better. In others, it enables people to pursue litigation that they would not contemplate were they paying for it from their own pockets.
I firmly believe that the range of cases identified for inclusion within the scope of civil legal aid reflects the desire—
Mr Speaker
Order. There is quite a lot of chuntering in the Chamber. I am sure that the Minister will want to speak up a bit so that everyone can hear him
Mr Djanogly
We must make tough choices and target scarce legal aid on those who need it most. I am sorry to tell the hon. Members for Sunderland Central (Julie Elliott) and for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) and the right hon. Member for Manchester Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) that legal aid has never been available for all cases and that we simply need to prioritise our spending. The hon. Member for Sunderland Central said that everyone deserves their day in court. That might be so, but mediation can sometimes be more appropriate.
The Bill’s reforms are not limited to public funding but extend to provisions to implement a fundamental reform of privately funded no win, no fee conditional fee agreements. The changes we propose will rebalance the CFA regime.
The right hon. Member for Tooting, incredibly, refused to say whether he supports our attack on the compensation culture. Under current arrangements, claimants can bring cases without any financial risk. Risk-free litigation encourages unnecessary or avoidable claims to be pursued and puts businesses and other defendants under pressure of excessive legal costs. Under our changes, claimants using CFAs will have to think carefully about whether it is necessary to pursue their claim. I confirm to the hon. Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy) that CFAs will still be available for group actions against multinational companies.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed rightly mentioned fixed costs and referral fees, which we need to look at. My hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans) mentioned the disgraceful episode involving referral fees in relation to miners’ compensation. The right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) felt strongly about referral fees and made a number of valid suggestions that are outwith the direct scope of the Bill but do, I agree, need to be looked at.
We are aware of the strong concern that the payment of referral fees in personal injury cases adds to the costs of civil litigation. We are considering the issue and will announce the way forward in due course. I point out, however, that in 1999 claimant costs represented 50% of damages but that by 2010 the figure had risen to 150%. The previous Government lost control of the situation. Under the relevant provisions in the Bill, the legal costs of all defendants facing CFA-funded claims will reduce. That said, we recognise that there are complex and difficult cases, such as clinical negligence cases, which the Chairman of the Justice Committee, my hon. Friends the Members for Dewsbury and for Mid Bedfordshire and the hon. Member for North West Durham (Pat Glass) raised. Our Jackson and legal aid reforms will address such cases. CFAs are a viable alternative to legal aid for these cases and the Bill will, exceptionally, enable the recovery of after-the-event insurance premiums for expert reports in clinical negligence cases, in recognition of the fact that they are important.
Bridget Phillipson
Will the Minister answer the question I asked the Lord Chancellor earlier about whether the Government will rethink their proposals to scrap legal aid for women applying for indefinite leave to remain under the domestic violence rule? It is a very small number of women.
Mr Djanogly
It is a small number but it is a complicated point, so I shall write to the hon. Lady.
Taken together, this is a balanced and sensible package of reforms of the kind that the Government were determined to achieve when we published our proposals. The overall effect will be to achieve significant savings while protecting fundamental rights of access to justice.
Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
Business without Debate
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Delegated Legislation
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Mr Speaker
With the leave of the House, it will be convenient to take motions 6 to 8 and 10 and 11 together.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
Criminal Law
That the draft Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Extension of duration of non-jury trial provisions) Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 5 April, be approved.
That the draft Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 (Commencement No. 3) Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 16 May, be approved.
That the draft Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 (Amendment) Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 16 May, be approved.—(Mr Dunne.)
Question agreed to.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
Parliament
That the draft Insolvency Act 1986 (Disqualification from Parliament) Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 3 May, be approved.—(Mr Dunne.)
Question agreed to.
Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),
Pensions
That the draft Pensions Act 2008 (Abolition of Protected Rights) (Consequential Amendments) (No. 2) Order 2011, which was laid before this House on 16 May, be approved.
That the draft Pensions Act 2007 (Abolition of Contracting-out for Defined Contribution Pension Schemes) (Consequential Amendments) (No. 2) Regulations 2011, which were laid before this House on 16 May, be approved.—(Mr Dunne.)
Question agreed to.
Khalsa Academy (Slough)
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
I have the honour to present, on behalf of the Slough Sikh Education Trust and members of the Sikh community in Slough and south Buckinghamshire, a petition in support of Khalsa secondary school in Slough. This afternoon, together with officers of the trust, I presented a petition in similar terms, with 1,500 signatures, to the office of the Prime Minister. I am trying to speak slowly so that the Secretary of State for Education will hear me, because the promoters of the petition tell me that he gave a pledge that he would help them to ensure the building of the school, if it was the only site they could find. That is indeed the case, and that is what the petition deals with.
The petition states:
The Humble Petition of the Slough Sikh Education Trust and members of the Sikh community within Slough and South Buckinghamshire.
Sheweth that the application of the Slough Sikh Education Trust to build and open a new Sikh Secondary Faith School, Khalsa Academy, in September 2012, was submitted in June 2011; that the Academy is to be sited next to the existing successful Sikh primary school; and that the trustees have, over the past year, exhausted all other feasible site options in the Slough area.
I must say that I know that, because I have been helping them. The petition continues:
Wherefore your Petitioners pray that your honourable House urges the Government to approve the application of the Slough Sikh Education Trust to build and open the Khalsa Academy in September 2012; and to support their endeavours to build the school on land near the existing Sikh Primary School.
And your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray &c.
[P000933]
Home Ownership (Armed Forces)
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
I welcome the opportunity to bring this important matter to the Floor of the House. It is a vital matter for serving armed forces personnel, and I speak today as someone who wants to make some constructive suggestions to the Minister in order to improve the uptake of mortgages. I do not think that that will mean new financial commitments from or undertakings by the Government, but I hope that it will deliver meaningful savings, if implemented well. I am particularly grateful for the support of my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) and the hon. Members for St Austell and Newquay (Stephen Gilbert) and for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller), who will contribute later.
Before I focus on access to mortgages, I pay tribute to Heropreneurs, a new charity founded by Richard Morris with the relatively simple aim of providing those who leave the armed forces with an entire business package, including start-up capital via a debt-for-equity model, pro bono legal and financial advice, a dedicated mentor, access to second-stage funding and a support network of people who have already made that journey from military to civilian life.
One beneficiary of Heropreneurs is Nick Cowan, a former colour sergeant with 23 years’ service in the Royal Green Jackets, who has set up a not-for-profit company called Mortgage for Life, which enables those in the armed forces to buy accommodation at significantly reduced cost via special deals that it sets up with developers, banks and building societies. Mr Cowan has met various hon. Members, including the Minister for the Armed Forces and the leadership of the Council of Mortgage Lenders.
In discussions with Heropreneurs and Nick Cowan, however, it has become clear that there are specific issues with enabling service personnel to get on the housing ladder prior to their exit point, so I want to focus on that and on how the Ministry of Defence and the Department for Communities and Local Government can enable more serving armed forces personnel to overcome the particular inhibitors of their employment status in order to access the housing market in the same way as their civilian peers.
Despite the investment of Governments before and after the general election, the National Audit Office has found that the MOD did not have sufficient accommodation overall to meet current demand; that, if it did, the properties were in the wrong location; and that many did not match the need among those families in the right places. The NAO estimates that it will take two decades to sort that out, so the MOD is spending £38 million on maintaining vacant properties and paying out £16 million annually on private rented accommodation.
One way to resolve those issues and high costs is to make home ownership a more accessible alternative option. It is potentially a cost-saving alternative to private rentals, and the MOD is responding. Giving the military covenant statutory force means that we have some confidence in the seriousness with which it takes a range of issues, and the Minister for Housing and Local Government, who is in his place, has also made encouraging announcements in the past week.
Housing agents will be dispatched to barracks throughout the country and abroad to help troops apply to buy a home under the £500 million Firstbuy scheme, which aims to help more than 10,000 households purchase a new build home over the next two years. There are some questions about that, however. Who are the agents? Will they be paid? Will they be on commission? How often will they visit personnel? And, what qualifications do they have?
The first indications from those who have been observing this matter are that, in the Firstbuy paperwork, priority for housing will be given to existing social tenants and MOD personnel, so service personnel will not receive quite the priority that was suggested in the announcement by the Minister a week ago. Though that was welcome, it is still the case that there is very little social housing in this country and most property is owned by housing associations. If we want to tackle this problem in its entirety, we have to unlock the issue of housing associations having the autonomy to decide what to do with properties. The challenge is to make them open up the categories of person to whom they let property. An ongoing concern is that service personnel no longer receive a discount towards purchasing their social housing or housing association property. In the past, time served in service families accommodation would count towards the discount when buying their council house. The removal of that rule offers some challenges.
The challenges remain significant. As a member of the Select Committee on Defence, I am clear that thousands of personnel will leave the services in the next six months and, while specific initiatives will assist in the short term, we need to do more to change the lending culture towards the armed forces. The Council of Mortgage Lenders has confirmed that the industry supports measures to help overcome barriers to home ownership for military personnel. The mortgage application process will be refined and lenders will accept the principle that serving men and women should not be disadvantaged, but the details are important. It is critical that this is put right.
I understand that we will shortly get to the point where lenders’ systems do not reject applications because they come from British Forces Post Office addresses, so we should be in a situation where prospective lenders take applications from military staff out of their automated response processes, where appropriate. It is astonishing that there are these barriers to service personnel that mean that they cannot get beyond the application stage.
I understand that that industry is producing top tips for prospective borrowers from the services to assist them with key elements of the mortgage application process, and that is welcome. However, it is critical that the Minister ensures that this recently announced initiative is embedded in the mindset of the MOD. We cannot have the MOD saying, “Well, we’ve been doing it this way for some time and we don’t need your assistance, thank you.” We need a cross-departmental approach to ensure that the best outcomes are secured for these people who do so much for their country. There are real barriers that materially disadvantage service or ex-service personnel in securing a mortgage—in short, they cannot get credit-scored simply because of their profession.
I shall set out some of the key issues for consideration. Heropreneurs and Nick Cowan have written a mortgage manifesto, which addresseses how staff in retail branch networks handle mortgage applications and how they should have clear and consistent guidelines on how to treat certain savings products. Armed forces personnel should have access to the best possible discounts and fixed and tracker products, in line with those that civilian members of the public can access. Lenders should no longer be able to charge serving armed forces personnel more for life assurance premiums in relation to policies that are required to support a successful mortgage application than they do civilians of the same age. The Council of Mortgage Lenders, the British Bankers Association and their respective members should have a dedicated armed forces and veterans page on their retailing banking websites to give specific financial advice to those clients.
Strong consideration needs to be given to providing better-quality advice within the armed services themselves. It is critical that, embedded within training at different stages, serving personnel can get advice and access to independent financial advisers. I am not saying that the Minister or the MOD should become IFAs, but they should facilitate wise advice. If investment decisions are made when people are in their 20s they tend to determine how people will fare in their 40s and 50s, and they will have an impact on the generation that comes after them.
All serving armed forces personnel should have the opportunity on at least an annual basis to receive specialist advice. The issues relating to the use of long service advance of pay should be simplified as a matter of urgency, so that there is a clear presumption in favour of the money being used to put down a deposit or pay for the legal fees associated with a mortgage application. At the moment, that seems very difficult to deal with. The resistance to allowing people to secure a buy-to-let property also inhibits take-up.
Let me finish by acknowledging that the Minister has taken a lead in addressing some of the issues. I am here to urge him to go further, to work with his MOD colleagues and all Ministers across Government to ensure that our armed services personnel get the best that they deserve. The core concerns underlying this debate are beginning to be addressed. The matter has such serious implications for the financial well-being of our servicemen that we need to look broadly and deeply into this issue and at every aspect of it to ensure that we achieve what rhetoric and headlines would have us believe will be the outcome.
Andrew Miller (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Salisbury (John Glen) on picking up the baton on this issue. Like me, he met Richard Morris from Heropreneurs a couple of weeks ago. I first knew Richard when he was involved in the Bright Ideas Trust and he is an extraordinary character who puts an amazing amount of energy into helping other people, and all credit to him.
There are the beginnings of a solution in the pilots that the Minister inherited from the previous Administration. There was a £20 million shared equity scheme, which was jointly supported by the MOD and the Department for Communities and Local Government. The scheme was a good idea, but what the hon. Gentleman has highlighted is a whole range of different parts of this problem that go much deeper than we first thought. The matter requires fresh thinking on a cross-departmental basis to ensure that we can persuade the various lending authorities to treat service personnel in the way that the hon. Gentleman has described. Service personnel are special to us and they deserve special treatment in all sorts of ways.
I am quite convinced, having looked at the challenge, that it is perfectly feasible for any self-respecting building society listening to the debate to find a vehicle that will work for this category. If a single building society can do it, perhaps others will, too. I should like the Minister to commit the Government to work with the private sector to bring that about.
Such work needs to cross a number of boundaries. With long-term planning for service personnel, their family situations would be more stable, and they would stay in the services for the longer term. Part of that work spills over into education. The Minister needs to liaise with his colleagues in education, so that we overcome the other little barrier: the placement of young schoolchildren when people leave the forces to ensure that they are in stable school environments within the geographical areas where their families plan to live. A holistic approach is needed, and the problem can be solved with a bit of joined-up thinking.
The Minister for Housing and Local Government (Grant Shapps)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury (John Glen) on calling this debate on a subject that is enormously important to many hon. Members and to people beyond. The constructive and helpful manner in which he has addressed the issue is appreciated. It is right that we do everything possible to honour those who have served this country, who have gone out of their way and put their lives on the line. In my view and, in fact, that of the Prime Minister—he said it from this very Dispatch Box earlier today—it is not enough simply to remove the disadvantages that having been away from home might bring. If we put ourselves in the position of those who defend the rest of us, we see that it is fair to expect them to be given a foot on the housing ladder as well. I want to make it a specific goal of the Government to ensure not only that we are removing those disadvantages but that we are actively helping.
My hon. Friend raises a number of key points, some of which we have already been talking about. I will try to address his concerns. He refers to the Firstbuy initiative that we launched recently, and ensuring that those who have served this country are at the top of the Firstbuy list. He rightly points out that it should help 10,000 or 10,500 families to purchase homes. I want to ensure that our ex-servicemen are at the front of the line to do that, and we have said that we will ensure that they are. They are being prioritised right at the top, along with people at the top of the housing waiting list. None the less, I intend to ensure that we promote the scheme properly to those who are in the target category. In doing so, we will send Firstbuy special agents into military bases here and abroad, as my hon. Friend mentions, to ensure that we find the right people, so that they know about the schemes. That activity is already under way, and I can put my hon. Friend’s mind to rest about the detail at that scheme by letting him know that the network of Firstbuy agents is already in place and active. For example, I have the marketing material that they are sending to barracks to promote the scheme.
My hon. Friend mentioned social housing. Of course, people do not always want to return to purchase houses, as that might not suit their situation. They might return and want to get on to the social housing waiting lists. Again, I have some good news for him: I intend to consult on how we can better handle their position on the social housing waiting lists. I am determined—I am sure that the whole House is—to ensure that people do not return and find themselves languishing at the bottom of the housing waiting lists, perhaps because a local authority is trying to apply a local connection rule. That is completely wrong, so I reassure my hon. Friend that we will consult on a better way to ensure that returning squaddies are at the top of that list.
Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)
First, on social housing, I urge the Government to ensure that those councils with large garrison communities have additional resources if that priority is to be meaningful. Secondly, I seek the Minister’s assurance about the failings of an organisation called Blue Force that was based in my constituency and operated from the former Colchester barracks with MOD phone numbers. It was set up to encourage serving personnel around the world to buy, but it went under owing hundreds of thousands of pounds, with many serving military personnel losing thousands individually.
Grant Shapps
On the first point, my hon. Friend is absolutely right that resources need to follow. He will be aware that we have launched not just the Firstbuy scheme to build 10,500 homes for purchase, but a range of different schemes for affordable rent that will very much apply across the country, and aim to build 150,000-plus homes. Of course, as I announced a few moments ago, we will ensure that military personnel are right up there on that list. I intend to consult on the matter after the Localism Bill has finished its progress through the other place. The case of Blue Force is not one with which I am familiar. I would be happy to receive further information on it.
It is interesting that my hon. Friend the Member for Salisbury raised the issue of right to buy and whether time outside the country counts towards the right to buy qualification. I am reliably informed that nothing has changed since the Housing Act 1985. This Government certainly have not made any changes, and I do not think that the previous Government did either. Again, I invite him to provide details if he has any concerns about that. Someone who serves abroad should certainly not lose that time, when it should count towards their right to buy.
As my hon. Friend knows, I have promoted these issues, particularly by holding a military housing summit on 16 May, the same day that the military covenant was launched. I sat around a table and held discussions with a range of military leaders, charity workers, defence officials and many others about how we can improve the situation. I reassure him that a whole range of ideas came out of that meeting—from the Firstbuy discussions, to what more we can do to let our armed forces have a fair crack of the whip at social housing, and to the problems that he eloquently outlined involving how British Forces Post Office addresses have not qualified, until now, with the credit reference agencies that all the mortgage lenders use when assessing a mortgage application. That is an extraordinary problem that should be solved easily. I can inform the House that we have been working to resolve it for several months, since the coalition came to office. We are fairly close to a resolution.
Andrew Miller
The Minister is making an important point. Will he send a strong message to all credit reference agencies that both the Government and the Opposition are incredibly proud of BFPO? It reflects an important part of our society, and we regard it as an insult to our troops that they should be treated in that way by credit reference agencies.
Grant Shapps
The point has been made clearly, and I hear that other hon. Members agree, as do the Government. We have been discussing the matter and are close to resolution. It is an example of how a tiny piece of bureaucracy can cause complete mayhem for somebody’s future life. The inability to score highly on a credit record is important, and it is only a matter of a software change—the computers at Experian and elsewhere simply need to be able to accept BFPO postcodes so that they do not create a problem. Indeed, it could be part of the solution, because once it has been flagged up that somebody has been in the military, all the additional assistance that I have mentioned— for example, Firstbuy—could be brought to bear simply through that information coming to light. I have found the Council of Mortgage Lenders and others to be very helpful in trying to resolve the problem, and we are not far off making an announcement. That is good progress.
I can also report that the scheme managed by the MOD that the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller) mentioned is expected to help a minimum of 250 families into affordable home ownership. I know that that will be widely welcomed. Of course, there are several other key challenges, and I intend to pick up on those themes at a further first-time buyers’ housing summit, which I will hold on 5 July. I will add some of those items to the agenda so that we can keep proper tabs on where we have reached.
I believe that we are considering an issue that one cannot simply approach once and expect it to be resolved.
Grant Shapps
We have to keep returning to the matter, just as the hon. Gentleman is about to do with his intervention.
Andrew Miller
Will the Minister please add to his agenda the special tools that are needed to enable people to transfer from buy-to-rent to buy-to-live-in? A special vehicle is needed for military personnel in that category. That would help them to buy early, which would obviously help later in their careers.
Grant Shapps
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I have not examined that so far, and I am certainly happy to add it to the agenda and give some thought to how we could assist.
We are trying to assist in many different ways. One strange problem is that, six months before someone is discharged, they get a notice of cessation, which tells them that they will be moved out of their military accommodation. There is not much connectivity between that and the local authority, which may not know that those people are about to come down the line and may be in need of housing help, advice or assistance. We intend to join that process up as best we can. That is important.
The more I have looked into the matter, the more it strikes me that the key is joining all the dots. It is not that the country is not grateful and nobody wants to help—far from it. My experience has been the opposite. However, the dots have not been sufficiently joined up. The bureaucratic barriers have got in the way. I commit us to ensuring that, in every possible way, we will seek out and actively try to destroy those barriers, taking on board the excellent ideas that have been presented in debates such as tonight’s and any others, wherever they come from. It is my goal and the Government’s intention to ensure that when those who have bravely served in the military come home, that bravery and the job that they did so selflessly is recognised by everybody in the country, particularly when it comes to housing needs.
Question put and agreed to.
Ministerial Correction
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Ministerial CorrectionsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Communities and Local Government
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Ministerial CorrectionsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Caroline Flint
To ask the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government how much funding his Department provided to each local authority for community cohesion projects in (a) 2011-12 and (b) each of the last three financial years.
[Official Report, 15 June 2011, Vol. 529, c. 787-91W.]
Letter of correction from Mr. Andrew Stunell:
An error has been identified in the text of the Minister’s answer given to the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) on 15 June 2011.
The full answer given was as follows:
Andrew Stunell
Between 2008-09 and 2010-11 funding for cohesion projects was provided to local authorities via unringfenced Area Based Grant In 2011-12, general unringfenced funding of £190.540 million was allocated to local authorities in England through Local Services Support Grant with the freedom to use it to meet locally identified priorities, including community cohesion.
The following table shows funding allocation for cohesion projects for each local authority from 2008-09 to 2010-11.
Local authority | 2008-09 | 2009-10 | 2010-11 |
|---|---|---|---|
Amber Valley Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Arun District Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Ashfield District Council | 72,353 | 132,647 | 156,765 |
Ashford Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Barking and Dagenham London Borough | 116,471 | 213,529 | 252,353 |
Barnsley Metropolitan Borough Council | 72,353 | 132,647 | 156,765 |
Basildon District Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Bassetlaw District Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Berwick-upon-Tweed | 26,471 | 0 | 0 |
Bexley London Borough | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Blackburn with Darwen Borough Council | 72,353 | 132,647 | 156,765 |
Blackpool Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Bolsover District Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Bolton Metropolitan Borough Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Boston Borough Council | 116,471 | 213,529 | 252,353 |
Bournemouth Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
City of Bradford Metropolitan District Council | 72,353 | 132,647 | 156,765 |
Breckland District Council | 95,294 | 174,706 | 206,471 |
Burnley Borough Council | 116,471 | 213,529 | 252,353 |
Bury Metropolitan Borough Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Calderdale Metropolitan Borough Council | 72,353 | 132,647 | 156,765 |
Carlisle City Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Cherwell District Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Cheshire East UA | 0 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Cheshire West and Chester UA | 0 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Chester-le-Street | 26,471 | 0 | 0 |
Corby Borough Council | 95,294 | 174,706 | 206,471 |
Craven District Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Crawley Borough Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Croydon London Borough | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Crewe and Nantwich | 26,471 | . 0 | 26,471 |
Dartford Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Derwentside | 49,412 | 0 | 0 |
Doncaster Metropolitan Borough Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Dover District Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Dudley Metropolitan Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Durham County UA | 0 | 320,293 | 378,529 |
Ealing London Borough | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Easington | 49,412 | 0 | 0 |
East Staffordshire Borough Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Ellesmere Port and Neston | 26,471 | 0 | 0 |
Erewash Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Fenland District Council | 116,471 | 213,529 | 252,353 |
Gateshead Metropolitan Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Gosport Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Gravesham Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Great Yarmouth Borough Council | 116,471 | 213,529 | 252,353 |
Greenwich London Borough | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Halton Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Hammersmith and Fulham London Borough | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Harlow District Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Hartlepool Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Hastings Borough Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Havant Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Havering London Borough | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
County of Herefordshire District Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Hertsmere Borough Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Hillingdon London Borough | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Hounslow London Borough | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Huntingdonshire District Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Hyndburn Borough Council | 95,294 | 174,706 | 206,471 |
Kings Lynn and West Norfolk Borough Council | 72,353 | 132,647 | 156,765 |
Kingston Upon Hull City Council | 72,353 | 132,647 | 156,765 |
Kingston upon Thames Royal Borough | 0 | 0 | 0 |
Kirklees Metropolitan Borough Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Lancaster City Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Lincoln City Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Liverpool City Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Luton Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Mansfield District Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Medway Borough Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Mendip District Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Middlesbrough Borough | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Newcastle upon Tyne Metropolitan District Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Newcastle-under-Lyme Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Newham London Borough | 72,353 | 132,647 | 156,765 |
North East Lincolnshire Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
North Lincolnshire Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
North Tyneside Metropolitan Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Northampton Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Northumberland County UA | 0 | 139,117 | 164,412 |
Nottingham City Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Nuneaton and Bedworth Borough Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Oldham Metropolitan Borough Council | 116,471 | 213,529 | 252,353 |
Oswestry | 26,471 | 0 | 0 |
Pendle Borough Council | 116,471 | 213,529 | 252,353 |
Peterborough City Council | 72,353 | 132,647 | 156,765 |
Plymouth City Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Portsmouth City Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Redbridge London Borough | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Redcar and Cleveland Borough Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Redditch Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Rochdale Metropolitan Borough Council | 72,353 | 132,647 | 156,765 |
Rossendale Borough Council | 95,294 | 174,706 | 206,471 |
Rotherham Metropolitan Borough Council | 95,294 | 174,706 | 206,471 |
Rushmoor Borough Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Salford Metropolitan District Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Sandwell Metropolitan Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Scarborough Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Sedgefield | 49,412 | 0 | 0 |
Sedgemoor District Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Selby District Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Sheffield City Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Shropshire County UA | 26,471 | 97,058 | 114,706 |
Slough Borough Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
South Holland District Council | 95,294 | 174,706 | 206,471 |
South Kesteven District Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
South Somerset District Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Southampton City Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Southend-on-Sea Borough Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Stockton-on-Tees Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Stoke-on-Trent City Council | 95,294 | 174,706 | 206,471 |
Sunderland City Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Swale Borough Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Tameside Metropolitan Borough Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Tamworth Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Telford and Wrekin Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Tendring District Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Thanet District Council | 72,353 | 132,647 | 156,765 |
Thurrock Council | 116,471 | 213,529 | 252,353 |
Torbay Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Tower Hamlets London Borough | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Wakefield Metropolitan District Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Walsall Metropolitan Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Waltham Forest London Borough | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Wansbeck. | 49,412 | 0 | 0 |
Watford Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Waveney District Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Weymouth and Portland Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Wigan Metropolitan Borough Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Wiltshire County UA | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Wirral Metropolitan Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Woking Borough Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Worthing Borough Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Wycombe District Council | 49,412 | 90,588 | 107,059 |
Wyre Forest District Council | 26,471 | 48,529 | 57,353 |
Total | 6,000,040 | 10,999,960 | 13,000,016 |
The correct answer should have been as follows:
Andrew Stunell
Between 2008-09 and 2010-11 funding for cohesion projects was provided to local authorities via unringfenced Area Based Grant. The following table shows cohesion funding allocated to local authorities from 2008-09 to 2010-11.
For this spending period (2011-12 to 2014-15) the Government have given more freedom to local authorities to decide how to spend their money. Local authorities have an estimated revenue spending power of £52.7 billion in 2011-12, which is unringfenced, and is available to them to spend on local priorities, which may include community cohesion.
Westminster Hall
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Convention on Domestic Workers
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)
I know that it is customary to praise the occupant of the Chair at such moments as these, Mr Howarth, but I am very pleased indeed that you are presiding over this debate on such a critical issue. My aim in calling for the debate is to hold the Government to account for their unannounced refusal earlier this month to sign the International Labour Organisation convention on domestic workers.
The convention’s introductory text describes why the protection is needed:
“domestic work continues to be undervalued and invisible and is mainly carried out by women and girls, many of whom are migrants or members of disadvantaged communities and who are particularly vulnerable to discrimination in respect of conditions of employment and of work, and to other abuses of human rights”.
It is for that reason that there have been international efforts over some years to produce a convention that covers basic human and workplace rights for people all over the world who work in other people’s homes as cleaners or cooks, or do other kinds of domestic work. The convention will entitle them to the basic labour standards that we expect for all workers.
I intend to show how, in the worst cases of abuse, some domestic workers in the UK are forced to work for no wages and are therefore basically slaves, others are subjected to sexual abuse and physical violence, some are barely fed, many have only a floor to sleep on, and many earn a pittance and work extraordinarily long hours. Some Members might feel that we did that yesterday in the House, but it is a regular occurrence for people in these circumstances.
The convention serves to give international backing to the right of domestic workers to protection against such abuses, and to entitle them to the dignity at work that every human being should expect, yet the UK Government were one of only eight Governments to abstain in the vote. Let us see what company we were in: the Governments of El Salvador, Panama, the Czech Republic, Sudan, Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand. Swaziland did not vote in favour. All other 173 Governments voted in favour of the convention, including the USA and China. All the worker representatives voted in favour, as did many employer representatives. It looks to me as if, in that list of shame—I do regard it as such—the UK is the country that is probably on its own in having a record of receiving rather than generating victims of human trafficking, a problem that is so rife in this sector. We should be especially ashamed of that.
My first question to the Minister with responsibility for employment relations is: why was the UK one of only eight countries to abstain on this vital treaty, which provides clear rights to the 100 million domestic workers around the world? This is not a small sector, and the issue is a very important human rights one. I have heard some excuses already. The UK Government representative at the ILO conference gave the following explanation:
“The United Kingdom already provides comprehensive employment and social protection to domestic workers; however, the strength of our general provisions means that it is occasionally inappropriate to treat domestic workers identically and, sadly, the Convention does not recognize this. For example, we do not consider it appropriate or practical to extend criminal, health and safety laws, including inspections, to private households employing domestic workers. It would be difficult, for instance, to hold elderly individuals employing carers to the same standards as large companies. Accordingly, the United Kingdom will be unable to ratify this Convention in the foreseeable future.”
Colleagues who have raised the issue with the Minister get exactly the same formula and exactly the same “for example,” but my belief is that this is not one example of many problems, but the only fig leaf that the Minister can hang on to. A letter from him refers to
“those few areas, such as health and safety law”,
and I hope that he will take the opportunity of this debate to tell us what the other areas are in which it is inappropriate to treat domestic workers the same.
The Minister’s claim on the grounds of health and safety law is fundamentally unfounded, because he knows, even better than I do, that health and safety is implemented incrementally. Local inspectors, if they engage with a company—I have worked for many small companies and have never been inspected by a health and safety inspector—usually offer advice notes before proceeding to criminal prosecution, unless there has been a death or a very serious injury, for example. Perhaps the Minister will therefore give specific examples of when small employers who are suspected not of putting customers’ health at risk—I accept that there are criminal prosecutions in such cases—but of putting employees at risk, have been subject to criminal prosecution and active investigation without prior advice, unless there has been a fatality or a serious injury. I do not believe that there is the rash of examples of heavy-handed health and safety implementation that the Minister implied in his letter.
In defence of the Government’s position, the spokesman continued:
“We do hope that the principles”—
that the convention enshrines—
“can help to raise standards”.
I want the Minister to tell us, therefore, how the UK Government’s position will help to maintain standards and enhance the rights and protections of domestic workers in the UK and around the world when, unlike the overwhelming majority of Governments, ours have actively chosen not to support the convention.
The statement by the UK’s representative continues:
“Within the United Kingdom, we will continue to see proportionate improvements to the social and employment protections available to domestic workers where particular problems are identified.”
I would like to know what improvements we will see because, in my view, the Government are doing precisely the opposite of improving conditions for domestic workers. On the very same day that the UK abstained in the vote, the Government announced a consultation on proposed changes to visas for the UK, including a proposal to end the domestic worker visa. That consultation includes options either to abolish the route for migrant domestic workers to enter the UK, leaving them open to being brought in by employers through informal routes in breach of immigration controls, or to restrict them to a six or 12 month non-renewable visa and remove the right for them to change employers, even if they are severely abused.
David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)
I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this very important debate. Leaving aside the fact that the coalition has failed to vote on the convention—hopefully we will hear what the Minister has to say on that—does she believe that the unions, the CBI or any other employment agencies are doing enough? Could they do a lot more?
Fiona Mactaggart
To my surprise, when I conclude my remarks, I am going to read a quote from the Centre for Social Justice. That is not normally a place to which I look for guidance, but when it launched its inquiry into human trafficking its director said that it was critical that all the sectors—the Government, voluntary organisations, employers and employees—worked together on a coherent strategy to deal with this modern-day form of slavery. My contention is that the Government’s position is confused—if I am kind—or actively malevolent —if I am not—and that it is not working coherently to deal with this serious and substantial human rights problem in the UK.
Removing the right for migrant domestic workers to change employer means a return to bonded labour. The visa has been recognised as the main form of protection for this group of workers, who, as has been recognised by the international convention, are especially vulnerable to severe exploitation, including slavery and trafficking for domestic servitude. Indeed, the 2009 report of the Home Affairs Committee included the statement:
“To retain the existing migrant domestic worker visa and the protection it offers to workers is the single most important issue the government can do to prevent forced labour and trafficking”
of such workers.
At a time when the Government are choosing not to participate in an international convention, they are choosing, domestically, to remove an important protection for migrant domestic workers against slavery and bondage. Removing the visa altogether will increase both trafficking via illegal routes and unlawful working, which will leave these workers believing that they are unable to contact the authorities for assistance and with fewer, if any, enforceable rights. Limiting the length of the visa makes it likely that unscrupulous employers will keep workers working for them beyond the length of the visa, again without any recourse to meaningful legal protection against severe exploitation.
The Government claim that anti-trafficking measures can replace the protections provided by the visa. I have talked to Kalayaan, whose work I praise. It is the most effective group that represents migrant domestic workers. I have known its work since about a quarter of a century ago, when it helped illegal entrants to the UK who did not know that they were illegal entrants. Together with others who work with victims of trafficking, it has produced a report that shows how ineffective the measures we already have are in practice for all victims.
The report shows that the overseas domestic worker visa is a relatively inexpensive and effective way of protecting migrant domestic workers, and that, without that legal channel, trafficking of domestic workers via illegal routes will increase. Workers who do not benefit from those protections, particularly domestic workers who enter the UK accompanying diplomats, are more likely to be in slavery than those who work in private households. Kalayaan’s figures show that seven in every 100 of the diplomatic workers they have seen were trafficked, compared with one in 1,000 migrant domestic workers in private households. That shows how effective the visa is.
Let us be clear: even when they are not trafficked, these workers are commonly subject to the most grotesque abuse and exploitation. Kalayaan has produced figures that show that two thirds of those who approached them did not have any time off—they worked seven days a week. Three quarters of them worked on call and had to be available 24 hours a day. More than half of them worked 16 or more hours a day, and 70% received a salary of £50 or less a week. I do not think that the Minister is proud of that type of exploitation, but it is a reality and the failure to sign up to the convention and to take any effective action means that it will be a more common reality in Britain.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey)
The hon. Lady has an excellent record on campaigning against human trafficking and slavery. How would signing the convention have helped to tackle slave labour and human trafficking in the UK? What difference would it have made to our domestic legislation?
Fiona Mactaggart
Signing the convention would make a difference in three ways. The first is the signal it would send to traffickers, who will otherwise believe, no doubt, that the UK is joining their infamous gang and saying that this country is open to human trafficking. We know how extensive human trafficking is in the UK and that it is more profitable than drug dealing. It is the most profitable activity for organised crime, although the field of human trafficking is unorganised as well as organised, because people as well as agencies supply domestic workers. Moreover, individual families bring domestic workers with them. It is, therefore, important that Britain sends out a signal that we are closed to that kind of abuse.
Secondly, the victims themselves would also get a signal. People who work with victims of trafficking have told me that those victims believe that they have no recourse to help and that the clear signal is that they are dependent on their owners/employers, who usually retain their passports. They do not believe that anyone can help them. They are frightened of approaching the police and, frankly, our national referral mechanism is an incompetent way for them to get help.
Thirdly, if we were signatories to the convention, the Minister would have to do something about this level of labour exploitation. Our laws apparently say, and we claim at international events, that we have fantastic working hours and protection and so on. However, 67% of the migrant domestic workers who approached Kalayaan said that they did not have any time off, were working seven days a week and worked on call for 24 hours a day, and more than half of them worked for 16 or more hours a day. The Minister may say that the UK’s position is that people ought, voluntarily, to be able to work for more than 16 hours a day, but I do not believe that those workers were working voluntarily for more than 16 hours a day when their salary was £50 or less a week. If the Minister were a signatory to the international convention, I think that he would actually have to do something about this level of labour exploitation in people’s homes.
Mr Gregory Campbell (East Londonderry) (DUP)
Does the hon. Lady agree that the Government’s position appears to be that signing the convention would either make no difference or create a series of other, consequential problems? Other nations, communities and countries have supported and signed the convention, so does she also agree that the Minister should outline the difficulties that the Government think have appeared and that the rest of us are unaware of?
Fiona Mactaggart
The hon. Gentleman is right. I think that we all find what has happened to be depressing.
As well as being subject to labour exploitation, these workers are also subject to horrific working conditions. About half of those who approached Kalayaan did not have their own room and had to sleep on the floor. We do not expect to see those sorts of working conditions in Britain in the 21st century. Two thirds of them were not allowed out unaccompanied, and two thirds had their passport withheld. That is unlawful. I know of no prosecution, except in cases in which someone has succeeded in being declared as having been trafficked, but that applies to only a tiny minority of these poor victims. Many of them are also victims of psychological abuse.
I have tried to show the ways in which the abuse is widespread and serious. I do not want to accuse the Government of bad faith, but, having talked to people who participated in the ILO process, I was shocked at the way in which our national representative behaved during the negotiations as the agenda approached its conclusion. It suggested that our aim was not in any way to improve conditions for these vulnerable workers. Apparently, the UK often led European Union amendments to attempt to dilute the convention in areas such as working hours and occupational safety and health. I have described the working hours that migrant domestic workers frequently face. Will the Minister tell us what working hours he thinks are reasonable for workers in people’s homes? Does he think that they deserve effective, not theoretical, protection in relation to working hours?
Even when all other countries had agreed on positions, the United Kingdom cited continued objections to the consensus, for example, on the working and living conditions of children. What protections does the Minister think that children should have when working in other people’s homes? The United Kingdom stated that the final text of the convention would be unratifiable. Indeed, the Government intend not to ratify the convention and will not even vote for it, citing apparent conflicts with EU regulations. The EU bloc and all other major countries decided wholeheartedly to endorse and vote for the convention, so the United Kingdom representative was the only dissenting voice in the plenary voting session on the convention.
On 23 May, less than a month prior to the final decision, the Minister said in reply to a question asked by two hon. Members about the matter:
“The Government will seek a workable convention that can be ratified by as many countries as possible, and consequently protect vulnerable domestic workers worldwide”.—[Official Report, 23 May 2011; Vol. 528, c. 469W.]
The Minister does, therefore, recognise that an international convention can protect vulnerable domestic workers worldwide. However, having abstained on the ILO vote, can the UK Government play a positive role in encouraging other countries to ratify the convention or protecting vulnerable domestic workers worldwide? We have completely lost moral leadership. Will the Minister tell us what contribution he thinks Britain can make to international action to protect this vulnerable group of workers?
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I congratulate the hon. Lady on bringing this most important matter to Westminster Hall for debate. As far as I am aware, she has not mentioned the UK Border Agency and the role that it should play in relation to the convention. Does the hon. Lady feel that the UK Border Agency should be better resourced and equipped to help those migrant workers who, in reality, are slave labour? Perhaps there is a greater role for the UK Border Agency to play in the matter.
Fiona Mactaggart
That organisation should be better at dealing with the issue, but I am not sure that it is easy to do so properly at borders. That is one of the challenges. There needs to be an in-country resource to which vulnerable trafficked people know they can turn for help. Their fear is that if they turn to the authorities for help, they will be outed. Unfortunately, that happens too often as those concerned are classed as illegal. For many people, that is through no fault of their own. They are here without status and they are illegal because their owner—we must not forget that we are talking about a kind of ownership and slavery—has retained their passport unlawfully and has said, “Don’t worry, I’ll sort this out,” and so on.
There needs to be an effective in-country recourse to which people in these circumstances can turn. Unfortunately, the national referral mechanism frequently fails to provide that because it does not consider its first priority to be protecting the individual. There is a laborious tick-box process and, because there is no real prospect of prosecuting someone for trafficking and getting a conviction, often the national referral mechanism will suggest that a person is not really trafficked. That is really sad.
Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)
Certainly we need to break the coalition’s “Upstairs, Downstairs” mindset in relation to workplace issues. On the question of people having to report the horrific circumstances in which they live, does my hon. Friend agree that the trade unions’ work on taking the evidence that was given—and I hope the Minister will arrange meetings with the trade unions to talk through the issues—is vital? If the trade unions had not been there to pick up these issues, I doubt anyone else would have done so.
Fiona Mactaggart
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. One of the powerful things about the ILO is that it is tripartite—it involves Governments, employers and trade unions. Where trade unions have picked up these issues, they have been brilliant. It has been difficult in some ways because trade unions have traditionally organised in big workplaces, and organising domestic workers has been a challenge for them. I had the privilege of speaking to a Nepali trade unionist who talked about how she had organised domestic workers in Nepal. Frankly, if someone can organise domestic workers in Nepal, they must be a genius organiser. It was wonderful to hear about their work in connecting to this vulnerable group of people. That was a strong piece of evidence about how trade unions can, by reaching out to people who are in these completely isolated workplaces, protect workers very well.
I want to draw my remarks to an end. I said that I would conclude by citing the Centre for Social Justice. When Gavin Poole, the executive director of that organisation, launched his very welcome inquiry into trafficking he wrote:
“Enslaved in homes across the UK are vulnerable domestic workers who want to earn money cleaning and cooking, but instead have their passport seized by their ‘owner’ and are forbidden to leave the house in which they live and work; sleeping on the kitchen floor and eating leftovers from the family meal is commonplace. We believe that whilst there is much good work going on in the UK to confront slavery, much of it led by the voluntary sector, there is a need for a strategic overview to detail how this hidden criminal activity can be defeated once and for all. For instance, it is essential that all government departments, the voluntary sector, the police and local authorities move in the same direction in order for the UK’s response to be appropriate and effective…One slave in this country is one too many, and it is time for the UK to take a lead again. I encourage people who think slavery is a thing of the past to look again, and join the CSJ as we work to help build a different future for people trapped in this tragedy.”
The Minister’s coalition Government have borrowed many ideas from the Centre for Social Justice. I hope that they do not make this one an exception because, on this matter, what we see are words going in one direction and actions going in another direction. The Minister should change his mind. Let us have another U-turn.
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) on securing this important debate. I, too, attended the launch of the Centre for Social Justice inquiry into modern-day slavery and human trafficking. When I first heard at that event that the United Kingdom had opted out of the convention, I must admit that I was worried. I did not know why we had done that. On the face of it, it sounded an odd thing to do and it concerned me greatly. However, I have to say to the hon. Lady and other hon. Members that, when I looked more deeply into the issue, I realised that there were reasons why the United Kingdom did so.
The hon. Lady concentrated heavily on the issue of human trafficking, which she and I have made common cause on and no doubt we will continue to do so. I point out to her that the United Kingdom has recently signed the European convention on human trafficking, and I am happy to admit that I was one of the Members who lobbied our Ministers heavily to do so because I thought it was the right thing to do. I join her in saying that slavery and human trafficking is a modern evil; it is a disgrace that it goes on in our age. Some 27 million people are in slavery around the world, not just in domestic labour, but in bonded labour in factories and in prostitution. She is right to be concerned about the issue.
From the hon. Lady’s remarks, hon. Members might have gained the impression that the ILO convention would have an impact purely on those evil employers who traffic people to be their domestic workers. In fact, the implications of the ILO convention are much wider than that. The United Kingdom already provides significant employment protection for domestic workers; in fact, in general, it makes no distinction between domestic and other workers. It is worth reminding hon. Members that domestic workers benefit from being paid the national minimum wage. They receive sick pay, paid annual leave and protection from unfair dismissal. That already exists in United Kingdom law. We do not need an ILO convention. Those are rights enshrined in law by this Parliament. What we need is greater enforcement. We need to seek out and identify employers who are behaving badly.
Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
Is the hon. Gentleman saying that, if we have something that is better than an ILO convention, we should not sign up to it? That is what he seems to be implying. He is implying that, if we have something better, then we do not need it. Surely, if we have something better, it is not problematic to sign up to it.
Andrew Selous
If the hon. Lady will allow me to develop my argument a little further, she will understand what I am saying. I just wanted to make the point regarding the protections that all of us are rightly concerned about. I have taken to task many employers in my constituency and elsewhere who have not behaved properly towards their workers. We need to enforce the law that we already have. I am looking for reassurance from the Minister, as, I am sure, are many hon. Members. There is much in the text of the convention that he will be keen to apply. He will want to ensure that we root out evil employers who treat their domestic staff in the way described by the hon. Member for Slough. There is not one of us here, including me, who wants to see that continue.
There is much in the convention that is good, but there are one or two areas that are problematic. One problem in particular is that it applies to other groups of workers that the hon. Lady did not even mention in her remarks. She read out the list of countries that did not sign the convention, including the United Kingdom. What she did not tell us was that a number of countries did sign it, but then said that they were not going to ratify it.
The United Kingdom has, quite rightly, very high standards when it comes to international agreements. We are a country of our word. If we say that we are going to do something, we do it. We play cricket, we believe in the rules and we follow them. It is pretty dishonest of many other countries, which she did not name, to sign up to the convention and then say that they will not be ratifying this bit or that bit.
Fiona Mactaggart
Canada, for example, said that it would find the convention difficult to ratify. I read the whole of the report, but I did not read that any country said that they would not. They said that they would struggle to ratify it, and I think that that was simply being honest.
Andrew Selous
I am making a slightly different point. Some countries ratified the convention, but then said that they would not enforce it. I just think that that is dishonest. The United Kingdom could have gone along and signed, got a pat on the back, not have had the aggravation of having this debate today, and then quietly not done anything about it. I am proud that, as a country, if we say that we will do something, we do it—that is important.
Jim Sheridan
The hon. Gentleman is right to identify the protection that workers have in this country. Does he understand, however, the frustration of people who are frightened to raise these issues with their employer for fear of losing their jobs? What would his suggestion be for people who are not being paid the minimum wage, and who are being mistreated in the workplace? What does he suggest that they do?
Andrew Selous
I am not sure that the convention actually gives them any particular rights that they do not have under employment law. I suggest that they contact Kalayaan, as the hon. Member for Slough said. There needs to be an education campaign. With evil people treating domestic workers like that, we need to find every opportunity to help them to realise what rights they already have.
Mr Davey
Before my hon. Friend moves on, his point about the number of countries that are members of the ILO not ratifying is very important for hon. Members to understand. Only one of the 25 conventions agreed in the ILO in the 20 years up to 2006 has achieved more than 30 ratifications, although there are 183 members of the ILO. That speaks volumes for how some member states approach voting on conventions and subsequent ratification.
Andrew Selous
I am grateful to the Minister for giving us those points of detail, so that they are now on the record.
The workers whom the hon. Member for Slough did not mention, and the reason that I have come to speak in this debate today, are people such as child minders, carers, housekeepers, cleaners and nurses who work for many of our frail and elderly constituents. The worry is that the imposition of criminal health and safety law in people’s private homes could mean that some of our frail and elderly constituents could be forced out of their homes and into residential care. All I would say to hon. Members is that they can come here and share my passion, and the passion of the hon. Lady, against the evils of human trafficking—we are as one in this Chamber on that issue. If she looks closely, however, at the text of the convention and its implications, inspectors could come into our constituents’ private homes, examine the rooms, gadgets and layout of the house, and perhaps tell a frail, elderly lady that her home is not fit to have a carer. That lady could be forced to move into a residential home.
The Government are right to be wary of some of the unintended consequences that they believe the ILO convention could have. As I said earlier, it is important for the Government to enforce those parts of the convention that are important and that we can agree on. There is, however, another group of perhaps 250,000 or 300,000 workers who we have not heard about—child minders, carers, cleaners and housekeepers. We have not heard what the effect on their employment could be if the enforcement of this ILO convention is not got right.
Mr Gregory Campbell
The hon. Gentleman is outlining potential consequences for the United Kingdom. Is there any evidence of any of those problems happening in the countries that have signed the convention?
Andrew Selous
This is a new convention that is being signed, so neither the hon. Gentleman nor I know what will happen. I come back to my general point.
The hon. Member for Slough was good enough to say that she was not necessarily impugning the motives of the Government. I am just trying to explain, as I understand it, the rationale for the United Kingdom to hesitate. It is not because the Government, or any members of it, are in favour of employers treating their staff wrongly. On the contrary, as a Government, my hon. Friend the Minister and my hon. Friends here today will say that we hold no candle for rogue employers. We want employers to treat workers fairly and properly, but we think carefully before we sign.
The hon. Lady spoke just about human trafficking. From her remarks, we would not have thought that the convention would apply to many of our constituents who work as carers, cleaners, nurses or housekeepers for our frail and elderly constituents who need extra help. All I say to hon. Members—who I think have come to the Chamber for honourable and proper reasons, and for reasons that I think we all share—is that there are wider implications to this issue. There could be unintended consequences. I will press the Minister to ensure that we enforce the convention—we can do this ourselves, we do not need to sign all parts of it—where we think that it is right, and where we think it bears down properly and legitimately on unscrupulous employers. I believe that he will be able to give me that reassurance when he comes to reply to the debate.
Mr George Howarth (in the Chair)
Order. It may be of assistance to those present if I point out that I intend to call the Opposition Front Bencher at 10.40 am. If those who speak in the meantime could keep their remarks within that time frame, we should be able to fit everybody in.
Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)
First, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) for securing the debate.
May I start by telling a story? We need to bring alive the human face of what we are talking about. It is about a young Nigerian woman who was deserted by her father when she was five, went to live in Benin and came to this country as a domestic servant. She told, in her own words, of her experience:
“I would wake up at 7 am to start the work, bring the 2 children to school and the youngest at 11.30 then picked them altogether at 3.00 pm. I did the general housework while the children at school. At night, I had to wait for my employer to open the door even at midnight though she had a key. I didn’t remember any single moment that she wasn’t angry, the moment I saw her, I felt very scared already.”
She then talks about how her employer effectively held her captive:
“She took my suitcase, kept my passport. Bank card and National Insurance card and did not give my salary for 2 months which was £250 per month only. My employer shouted non stop at me and pulled me out of the house. As I had nowhere to go, I knocked and knocked the door but for three days and three nights, my employer never opened the door. It was raining and winter, I was cold, hungry and scared in the dark.”
The teacher of the two young children then advised the young woman to escape from such a form of modern-day slavery. In her words:
“I had nowhere to go so I went to the Park and slept there for nights. I was very scared but there’s nothing I could do, I was all alone in the dark, I thought of my mother and sisters. How I wish they were just near me that at least I could hug them. The sky was very dark, I could see the beasts coming out from the dark, they were wild and heartless creature living in a beautiful Rose Garden”—
she was hallucinating—
“they would come out and attack helpless life wandering around like me. I couldn’t see any hope but I prayed and prayed, this was all I could do.”
The young woman went to that admirable organisation, Kalayaan. She was then supported—I am proud to say this—by my former union, of which I was deputy general secretary; for many years, the old Transport and General Workers Union, now Unite, has championed the cause of domestic servants in this country.
I will cite figures from a union survey of hundreds of domestic servants in London, whose length of service varies, but whose answers reveal a depressing pattern. Fewer than half of them were issued with written terms and conditions of employment. Almost half received itemised payslips with their wages and, typically, they worked long hours, aggregating well beneath the national minimum wage. In terms of treatment in the home in which they are working, fewer than a third received sick pay, with the majority forced to work when they were unwell, and a third of them were injured in that workplace, their employer’s home.
Andrew Selous
The hon. Gentleman has read out an appalling list of employer abuses, but does he not agree that they are already illegal? He went through a list, but we have legislation dealing with almost every issue that he read out. What we need is greater enforcement and vigilance to apply the law that we already have.
Jack Dromey
The law is not properly enforced but nor are our Government giving leadership. What message does it send if we are in a sorry minority worldwide in not signing up to the convention? I will come to the point made by the hon. Gentleman in a moment but, if we look at the grounds cited by the Government for refusing to sign the convention, they include objections on the basis of working time and health and safety, yet the evidence is absolutely clear: most individuals concerned work unacceptably long hours for less than the minimum wage and often in unsafe conditions, given the injuries they sustain.
All of this has a depressing pattern. In relation to the convention, the Government have failed to give moral leadership—that is what is necessary—or to show determination to enforce the law. They also dragged their heels over the European Union directive on sexual trafficking, and took a minimalist approach even when finally accepting their responsibilities. My hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan) is in the Chamber. He led on bringing the Gangmasters Licensing Authority into being but, sadly, the effectiveness of another organisation with an outstanding track record in combating modern-day slavery is being watered down by the Government. Now, it is the ILO convention.
When the convention was debated, one of the TUC representatives was a woman called Marissa Begonia, who is a member of Unite. She and the other worker representatives hoped that our Government would accept their responsibilities, as had, she said, virtually all the other employer and governmental representatives. She thought, “Surely, our Government must share in this consensus that there must be effective action internationally and nationally.” She was utterly dismayed that the country to which she is devoted failed to sign up.
In conclusion, it is utterly extraordinary that our Government, led by our Prime Minister, who quite rightly last week told China that it needed to accept its human rights responsibilities, did not sign up to the ILO convention, but China, America and virtually every other Government in the world did. We are in a sorry minority of those failing to accept their responsibilities. We are talking about desperate circumstances facing good women, of whom I have met many over the years. I remember a particular meeting, with 30 of them. They were people with bright eyes and hope on their faces, who had come here often to support their families or villages back home. They thought that coming to and working in this country would be a brave new world, but they came here and were treated utterly shamefully. This Government and this House should be on the side of such people. What this Government have done is to abrogate completely their moral responsibility.
Grahame M. Morris (Easington) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth. On the record, I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) for securing this important debate on Government policy on the ILO convention on domestic workers.
Many debates in this Chamber, such as on the issue we are discussing, might be lightly reported. Nevertheless, the Government decision on the ILO convention has significant consequences which will reverberate across the globe. It is significant because of what is being said to some of the most vulnerable people throughout the world as well as to potential traffickers. It leaves a stain on Britain’s reputation as an advocate of basic human rights, casting a cloud over our democratic values.
So important is the decision, that the Government have been accused by many commentators of betraying Britain’s 200-year history of anti-slavery and of isolating itself on the margins of the world stage. By abstaining from voting on the ILO convention on domestic workers, Britain has lined itself up alongside countries where workers’ rights are routinely infringed. Press reports state that the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills does not intend to ratify the convention “for the foreseeable future”, ruling out the application of the convention to British workers.
Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend share my concern that the Government’s position seems to be at odds with their international development policies, which are stated to be working towards improving the support for and the working rights of marginalised workers? Britain is therefore put in a difficult position when trying to speak on the world stage on such issues.
Grahame M. Morris
My hon. Friend makes a good point well. I completely agree with her.
The decision to abstain has two damaging effects. First, it will leave domestic workers in the UK, namely nannies, cooks, cleaners and the like, vulnerable to the risks prevalent for them. Secondly, it will undermine the UK’s standing and moral leadership on the international stage. For countries whose citizens, including domestic workers, have far fewer legal protections, Britain has abdicated its position as their champion. By neglecting their duty in this matter, the UK Government have tarnished their international reputation. People would be astonished to learn that workers who live with their employers in the UK and are treated as family are not covered by the working time or health and safety legislation, and are not entitled to the minimum wage. In fact, the ILO convention would have extended to those in domestic employment only very basic labour rights that are available to all workers—rights such as reasonable hours of work, weekly rest of at least 24 consecutive hours, a limit on in-kind payments, clear information on terms and conditions of employment, and some of the most basic rights of workers, including freedom of association, and the right to collective bargaining. Those are not extreme demands; they are moderate requirements.
ILO estimates of the number of domestic workers worldwide put the minimum at 53 million with the likelihood of the true figure exceeding 100 million. Domestic workers are often hidden behind closed doors, so they are all too often unregistered, and that higher estimate may be conservative. The ILO’s Director-General, Juan Somavia, said:
“Bringing the domestic workers into the fold of our values is a strong move, for them and for all workers who aspire to decent work”.
Unfortunately, that modest move was too strong for our Government.
The improvement on gender equality has also taken a hit from the British Government’s neglect because, as my hon. Friends have said, many of those workers are young women and girls. The ILO document “Questions and Answers on the Convention Concerning Decent Work for Domestic Workers” states unequivocally:
“The impact is tremendous. The mere fact of stating unambiguously that domestic work is work is a very important step toward gender equality in the world of work, because domestic work mainly employs women.”
The Government’s position has been weak and disingenuous. They have claimed that domestic workers in this country are covered by protective laws anyway. The truth is that they are not treated like workers in any way at all. Many are poorly treated, as we have heard, and are paid nowhere near the minimum wage. Some are effectively prisoners in the homes where they work, and rely on their work for their home, shelter, food and livelihood.
Andrew Selous
On the minimum wage, does the hon. Gentleman agree that we do not need to sign the ILO convention because we already have legislation on that? It is already illegal not to pay the minimum wage, and rightly so.
Grahame M. Morris
My hon. Friends have indicated that many domestic workers feel intimidated, and are unwilling to resort to traditional means. I do not accept the hon. Gentleman’s assertion. Many of his arguments were deployed against the UK Government signing up to the convention on human trafficking, and in relation to basic health and safety. I do not accept that domestic workers are already covered by effective legislation.
Jim Sheridan
Does my hon. Friend share my sadness at the suggestion of the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) that if the ILO convention were signed, old women would have their houses raided by inspectors to make sure that the working conditions and their houses are suitable for people to work in? That is ridiculous.
Grahame M. Morris
I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s intervention. The point made by the hon. Gentleman is a scare tactic. I remind hon. Members that basic health and safety regulations apply in the workplace, so it is nonsense to suggest that signing up to the ILO convention would somehow disadvantage the groups identified.
It is appalling that the CBI voted against the convention, but no more so than the fact that the British Government abstained. The only way for the Government to restore their credibility, not just here in the UK, but internationally, is to lay out their plan to ratify the convention for the benefit of domestic workers in Britain. I am aware that the TUC has set up a campaign for ratification in alliance with domestic workers and several charities and non-governmental organisations. I hope that hon. Members will take note of that, and that those who follow our proceedings will support it.
I know that other hon. Members want to participate, but before finishing I want to touch on one of the progressive moves that set the ball rolling on improving rights, particularly for migrant domestic workers. The visa for domestic workers was introduced in 1998 for the specific purpose of protecting migrant domestic workers from abuse and exploitation. It recognised their vulnerable position in the under-regulated work environment, their isolation from co-workers, and their absolute dependency on their employer for finance, accommodation, immigration status, and information about their general rights.
Signing the convention would be a first step in putting the employment relationship, visa demands and working choices in the hands of migrants to some degree. Migrant domestic workers could, for the first time, enforce their rights. I hope that the Minister will not simply read out the line on the Government’s absolutely unacceptable position. Instead, I hope that he will reflect on what has been said today, and that he will take steps to rectify the damage that has been done to our international reputation and standing on workers’ rights, taking the cause of domestic workers backwards and aligning the British people with some of the most deplorable regimes, which have been labelled an axis of evil—I do not know whether that is a fair assessment—and which would make many decent people in the United Kingdom ashamed.
Will the Minister review the Government’s position, and dissociate themselves from the CBI on this issue? Will he also lay out a plan for Britain to ratify and abide by this internationally backed convention?
Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) on securing the debate. She has a long track record of vigorous campaigning on this and related issues. She has explained the reason for the debate: to call the Government to account for their decision to abstain on the vote a fortnight ago on the International Labour Organisation’s convention on domestic workers. Detailed preparation of the ILO’s landmark convention continued for some time—indeed, since last year—with opportunities for countries to contribute to the work in progress in readiness for the vote on the convention at this year’s ILO international labour conference in Geneva some two weeks ago on 16 June.
Many people were taken aback to discover that although 173 Governments voted for the convention and only one, the Swaziland Government, voted against, the UK was one of eight countries that abstained from voting for the ILO’s convention on domestic workers. It is even more surprising that given the recent media reports about abuses in other countries and inexcusable treatment of domestic workers, the UK has, in abstaining, aligned itself with El Salvador, Malaysia, Panama, Singapore, Thailand, the Czech Republic and Sudan. The USA Government voted for the convention, and with the exception of the Czech Republic all EU countries voted for it. As we know from our previous discussions on the European working time directive, there is a plethora of different opt-out arrangements in many EU countries, but that has not prevented them from signing up.
Only last week, The Times reported on the
“abusive conditions endured by domestic workers...and their powerlessness”.
I believe that the Government have, by remaining silent, condoned that. We have heard horror stories today, and it is now clear that our Government are sending out completely the wrong message to millions of domestic workers around the world. When trying to help and protect them, they are often among some of the hardest to reach, particularly if they have recently arrived from abroad, live in, and have little knowledge of where to find help. Since 1998, following legislation by the then Labour Government, the UK has offered the overseas domestic worker visa, which provides workers with the possibility of independence from their employers. Will the Minister tell the Chamber what plans the Government have for the future of the overseas domestic worker visa, and whether there is any truth in the suggestion that they are looking to scrap it? I remind the Minister that the visa was introduced in 1998 with cross-party support, and that scrapping it would be a backwards step.
In 2008, the Labour Government set up the vulnerable worker enforcement forum, recognising that there was still much to be done to tackle hidden exploitation, and that vulnerable workers need an awareness of their employment rights and to know what to do if they suspect that those rights are being breached. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden), then the Minister responsible for employment relations, set up and chaired a fair employment enforcement board. Campaigns were run to raise awareness of employment rights and encourage the reporting of abuses. Some £6 million of extra funding was provided to supply information about workers’ rights. As the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) suggested, that educational role is important and we must get information about workers’ rights to the relevant people. That campaign included outreach work using buses, but domestic workers are particularly difficult to reach, and both the carrot and the stick are important. We need education, but also the Gangmasters (Licensing) Act 2004, the temporary and agency workers directive, and now the domestic workers convention.
The ILO stated that
“this instrument sends a very strong political signal.”
By not backing the convention, the Government also send a strong political message, but of a different order. I am disappointed with the decision, and hope that the Minister will explain what he is doing to ensure that Britain protects its work force, no matter what jobs they do.
Let us look at some of the detail in the convention. Before the meeting in Geneva, the UK Government expressed concerns about three areas of the draft text: first, the articles covering working time; secondly, the potential application of health and safety regulations to private dwellings where domestic workers are employed; and thirdly, those sections of the convention that call for greater regulation of private employment agencies.
Considerable preparation went into the drafting of the convention, and if we look at how it is worded, we see that its articles refer repeatedly to bringing the law concerning domestic workers into line with existing national laws for the rest of the work force. For example, article 10 states:
“Each Member shall take measures towards ensuring…normal hours of work, overtime compensation, periods of daily and weekly rest and paid annual leave,”
which should not be less favourable than those provided for workers generally in accordance with national laws and regulations. In other words, as would be expected for an agreement that is prepared for endorsement by countries across the globe that have different laws and traditions, the convention allows countries to refer back to their own national laws and regulations. Legislation already in place for workers generally can be extended to domestic workers.
Nia Griffith
We could have an entire debate on the working time directive, but I am not going to get too distracted by that. I remind the Minister that we had an interesting discussion the other day in a European Committee, and it became apparent that most of the 27 countries in the EU operate various types of opt-out from the working time directive. Our original opt-out has been copied in many different ways, but each country has its own ideas. It is recognised that we need a full and frank discussion about what happens next; the picture across the EU has been a little confused and when we look at our domestic law, we need to ask what is appropriate, including for domestic workers. It is clearly not appropriate for people to work seven days a week, 24 hours day. We need to look at best practice and ensure that we follow that type of model.
Jim Sheridan
My hon. Friend should not be so modest. The Leader of the Opposition has said clearly that mistakes were made by the previous Government that we need to rectify. Although we recognise that, it is not an excuse for the current Government to bring in legislation.
Nia Griffith
Absolutely, particularly on issues that have taken years of discussion to get to our current position.
Let us return to how the articles in the convention are worded. They state that we should try to make national laws that apply to the general work force apply to domestic workers. That is not easy because domestic workers are often the hardest to reach. Nevertheless, we need to educate people and use the stick as well as the carrot.
The Government have said that they
“do not consider it appropriate or practical to extend criminal, health and safety laws, including inspections, to private households employing domestic workers. It would be difficult, for instance, to hold elderly individuals employing carers to the same standards as large companies.”
Let me remind the Minister of two parts of the convention: article 13 and the relevant recommendation. Article 13 states that each member should take appropriate action,
“with due regard for the specific characteristics of domestic work”.
It is clear that the convention views work undertaken by corporations and that carried out in people’s homes as different, and does not demand that they be treated similarly.
Nia Griffith
It is certainly not my position. Article 13 states that appropriate measures should be taken,
“with due regard for the specific characteristics of domestic work”.
We all know the benefits of health and safety provisions. For example, when students come to do work experience with me I receive a form from the school, asking about fire exits and smoke alarms. Those are sensible and routine questions that every office should be able to answer appropriately. Exactly the same should be the case with domestic workers. We would not want people to work in circumstances that are not safe. We now have higher standards than we used to have—thank goodness; those standards have considerably reduced the number of accidents at work. The convention states that although what is appropriate in a home may be different from what is appropriate in a corporation, that does not mean that protection should not exist.
Nia Griffith
It is appropriate to endorse what is in the convention. The convention seeks to sort the issue out and find what is suitable.
Fiona Mactaggart
The Health and Safety at Works etc. Act 1974 does apply to domestic workers. The only exception relates to criminal legal sanctions. We know that in practice the Act is already enforced differently for small employers and large employers. Therefore, in response to the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous), it would be perfectly proper for the Act to be imposed more lightly in a domestic workplace with only one worker than it would be in a big workplace with dangerous machinery and many workers. That is already the case in Britain. My view is that the Government are trumpeting an excuse.
Nia Griffith
I thank my hon. Friend for her excellent explanation. Let us move on to recommendation 20, which states:
“Members should consider additional measures to ensure the effective protection of migrant domestic workers’ rights, such as…providing for a system of visits to households in which migrant domestic workers will be employed”.
The emphasis in the recommendation is on looking into and trying to find out the best way to deal with the matter. What has the Minister done, for example, to find out what happens in Finland or Ireland? What has he done to find out what happens in other countries, so that we can learn from those models, look into the best ways of dealing with the matter—best practice—and achieve improvements in standards?
The Government’s actions so far send a stark message to the world. By not supporting the convention, the Government are sending a bleak message to domestic workers not only in the UK, but throughout the world—perhaps 100 million people, who in some countries constitute up to 12% of the work force. The UK still commands considerable respect in the world, but at a time when the convention has been supported by 173 countries, including the US and almost all of the EU bloc, the Government seem to be suggesting that they will not stand up for the idea of extending to domestic workers the same basic rights as those enjoyed by workers throughout the economy. That is sending a very gloomy message to the world.
I would like to ask the Minister a few questions before I finish. Will he explain exactly why the UK chose to abstain from voting for the convention? It would have formed the basis for the UK to improve protection for domestic workers in the UK and would have shown leadership to the many countries in the world that still respect the UK and whose Governments may be trying to ratify the convention in very challenging circumstances.
Media reports quoted the Minister’s Department as saying that the Government would not be ratifying the convention to bind the UK by its rules “for the foreseeable future” and so they felt that it would be wrong to vote for it at all, but why do they not intend to ratify it for the foreseeable future? Is it just a low priority? Is it that no one in the Government wants to work out how existing UK law can be extended to cover domestic workers? That is what the convention is about—extending existing UK law. After all the times that hon. Members on both sides of the House have raised the related issue of the EU directive on human trafficking, are the Government still not aware of how much concern there is about this issue?
Will the Minister explain why a spokesperson for his Department is quoted in the press as saying that the Government “strongly support” the principles enshrined in the convention and that the UK
“already provides comprehensive employment and social protections to domestic workers”
when there is clearly plenty of evidence to show that, in reality, domestic workers do not always enjoy such rights and benefits?
What is the real reason behind the Government’s decision? Is it a complete phobia of anything that might look like a regulation, and the hollow-sounding promise on regulation? This year, it has been a case not of one in, one out, but of 53 in and three out. Are the Government succumbing to the constant demands from their Back Benchers, the hon. Members for Shipley (Philip Davies) and for Christchurch (Mr Chope), who regularly propose scrapping the minimum wage and heap ridicule on measures to protect workers from exploitation? I sincerely hope not.
Now that the UK has not voted for the convention, what do the Government intend to do to improve the rights of domestic workers in the UK? Having abstained in the ILO vote, how can the UK Government play a positive role in encouraging other countries to ratify the convention? Can the Minister confirm whether it is true that in the negotiations, the UK also asked to be officially disassociated from an agreed EU position on encouraging countries to consider adopting voluntary codes to cover incidents of abuse of domestic workers by their diplomats while posted abroad? I ask that in the light of a report this week in The Guardian, which states:
“The US state department has expressed concern about the abuse of domestic staff working in foreign embassies in London, saying repeated allegations of mistreatment have not been addressed by the government.”
That is a very serious accusation indeed.
If the legislation and the reality are already better than what is required by the convention, what is the problem with signing up to it? If we are saying that our existing laws are too good to be extended to domestic workers, I find that disgraceful. If we are not yet in a position to meet all the demands of the convention, surely it would be an aspiration to work towards and we should look towards ratifying it. Will the Minister explain why the Government have chosen to put us in an extremely embarrassing position in the world by not signing up, sending out a very negative message to workers both in this country and abroad?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey)
I congratulate the hon. Member for Slough South East (Fiona Mactaggart) on securing a debate on this important subject. She spent quite a lot of time talking about trafficking, and I understand her campaigning role on that and her record, but we do want to talk about the text of the convention, so I thank her for the opportunity to explain why the Government abstained on the vote on the convention while strongly supporting its principles.
A key factor in understanding our position is recognition of how the convention would or would not have changed our domestic laws for domestic workers. In the UK, we already have a legal framework of basic employment rights and social protections for employees and workers, including domestic workers. So, like other workers, most domestic workers benefit from the national minimum wage, statutory sick pay, paid annual leave and protection from discrimination and unfair dismissal, as well as other protections. My hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) was completely right about that: the key question is enforcement.
Fiona Mactaggart
The Minister says that most domestic workers benefit from paid annual leave.
Fiona Mactaggart
I am sure that they should. I want to know how the Minister knows that most actually do, because in my experience, it is very likely that most do not. I do not know how he knows that most do.
Mr Davey
This is a question of the law. The law says that those workers are entitled. Signing the convention would have made no difference to that. The question that my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire raised was about enforcement. The hon. Lady should understand that. It is about enforcement.
Nia Griffith
If the issue is about enforcement and we already have existing legislation, what is the problem with signing up to the convention? Of course we need to improve our enforcement. We need to do that in many areas. However, if the legislation is sufficient, in the Minister’s view, to meet the convention, what is the difficulty?
Mr Davey
Of course I will come to that point as it is central to my speech, but let me say for the record that I am undertaking a review of enforcement and compliance rights in the UK to try to improve enforcement in the UK. I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire would welcome that.
Domestic workers have the same access as other workers to mechanisms for enforcing their rights. The national minimum wage and statutory sick pay, for example, are enforced by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, and those and other rights can also be enforced by individual workers, if necessary by taking a case to an employment tribunal.
If the domestic worker is an agency worker, they have additional protections under the Conduct of Employment Agencies and Employment Businesses Regulations 2003. Those regulations prohibit agencies from charging work-finding fees; require agencies to pay workers for all the hours worked; and provide other protections. They are enforced by my Department’s employment agency standards inspectorate, which responds to complaints and, additionally, carries out a programme of proactive, risk-based inspection.
The pay and work rights helpline, set up by the previous Government, provides an accessible single point of contact for all workers—and, indeed, employers—seeking advice about or wanting to report abuses. It covers basic employment rights, such as the national minimum wage, working hour limits and the special regulations applying to agency workers. A translation service is provided in more than 100 languages for those who need it.
As required by the convention, our child employment regulations are robust. Children under the minimum school leaving age can only do light work, and there are strict rules on when and for how many hours children can work.
For egregious offences at the serious, criminal end of the spectrum, the UK has recently introduced a new offence of holding someone in slavery or servitude or requiring a person to perform forced or compulsory labour. The offence builds on existing statute and will in some circumstances make prosecutions easier.
Signing the convention would have made no difference to the measures that we have in the UK. It would have made no difference to stopping slavery or human trafficking. Why? Because we already, rightly, have some of the strongest laws in this area. There is no question, then, about the Government’s commitment to the principles behind the convention. In almost all respects, our laws already match the requirements set out in the convention.
I come now to the question posed by the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith): if we already comply with almost all of the convention, why did we abstain? The main sticking point for us is the convention’s approach to health and safety in private households. The wording does not provide sufficient flexibility to meet the UK’s long-established approach. Nor does it match our principles of proportionate regulation based on risk. Indeed, because it is inflexible and disproportionate, it could, if implemented, have damaged the interests of vulnerable people. I am sure that the hon. Member for Slough South East would not want that.
Mr Davey
I apologise to the hon. Lady.
Let me explain the position in detail. Article 13 of the convention requires each member to take
“in accordance with national laws, regulations and practice, effective measures, with due regard for the specific characteristics of domestic work, to ensure the occupational safety and health of domestic workers.”
For the UK, that requirement to take effective measures would, in practice, mean extending the Health and Safety at Work, etc. Act 1974 to private households employing domestic workers. I ask colleagues to consider what that would entail.
Fiona Mactaggart
As I understand it, the Act does apply to private domestic workers, with the exception of section 51, which provides a specific exclusion in relation to criminal prosecution. It is not usual for people in a small workplace to go to criminal prosecution without previously having been advised by inspectors, unless there has been a death or serious injury. As I said in my speech, perhaps the Minister can give us an example of where criminal prosecution has taken place in a small workplace.
Mr Davey
I have to tell the hon. Lady that domestic workers are excluded from part I of the Act, which covers health, safety and welfare in connection with work and the control of things such as dangerous substances, and which includes some general duties. There are protections under civil law, and I will come to them in a second, but I am afraid that signing the convention would have meant extending the Act to private households employing domestic workers.
Anyone employing a domestic worker such as a cleaner, a home help, a child minder, a carer for an elderly or disabled person, a gardener, a nanny or an au pair—it is a long list—would have been covered by a range of health and safety regulations, and, in particular, by the 1974 Act. Hon. Members might ask what is wrong with that, but they should consider the implications. The Act would place specific duties on such employers to ensure the health, safety and welfare of domestic workers in so far as that was reasonably practicable, and individual householders would have to familiarise themselves with the law. According to the Act, they would need to consider the information, training, instruction and supervision that their helper needed. They would need to assess the helper’s tasks and any risks from equipment and substances to which the helper might be exposed. The householder would also have to carry out a wide range of risk assessments, which would be different for each home.
The sanctions for non-compliance would be criminal. Householders failing to comply with the law would be subject to criminal penalties providing for unlimited fines and imprisonment for up to two years.
Nia Griffith
Does the Minister not think that it would be highly desirable for the workplace to be made safe? Does he really want people to be exposed to all sorts of dangers, particularly when a large number of accidents happen in the home? What is his objection to strengthening the health and safety situation of domestic workers?
Mr Davey
I will come to the evidence for not applying the provisions in a second, but if I may, I will continue my remarks, because I want to answer the hon. Lady’s questions.
The Act would place a serious regulatory burden on individuals and create a fear of criminal liabilities if things go wrong. That speaks to the point made by the hon. Member for Slough, who says that there are not many prosecutions of small and medium-sized enterprises and that lots of advice is provided before such things happen. We could, of course, contest that, but what she fails to recognise is the fear of prosecutions, so let us look at the implications of that.
There would be new and significant disincentives to employing domestic workers in a private arrangement. Individuals may cease to employ the additional help they need, which could have serious social consequences. Elderly or disabled individuals, for example, could be deterred by the increased burden they would face from employing carers in their homes, potentially forcing them into residential care.
I assume that hon. Members, like me, visit constituents who are unable to come to their advice surgeries. I have two advice surgeries a week, but I also go to the homes of disabled and elderly people who are not able to come to see me. I have gone into many constituents’ homes, and my understanding of the health and safety legislation is that those homes would have to be significantly improved and changed. I do not believe that the people I visit would welcome inspections of their homes, which would be very intrusive.
Jim Sheridan
The Minister is a decent man, and I do not believe that he is reading out the script he has been given to scare people, but does he honestly agree with the hon. Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) that old women’s houses will be raided to ensure they comply with health and safety provisions? Is he seriously suggesting that will happen?
Mr Davey
I am not suggesting that, because health and safety inspectors do not raid people’s homes.
I ask colleagues to reflect carefully on the legal implications of the position they are taking. The convention would undermine the Government’s policy to support independent living, which includes offering personal budgets in the form of direct payments to people receiving state-funded care. In line with Government policy, social care is increasingly being delivered in the recipient’s own home, and more than 150,000 people are currently working as social care personal assistants in private homes. That policy was begun by the previous Government, and we support it.
Andrew Selous
I am glad that my hon. Friend has mentioned the personalisation agenda. Does he agree that many of our vulnerable constituents who employ people are quite worried about their obligations as employers anyway? They are not evil people, and they just want their care, but they are quite worried about the implications of being an employer in their own homes.
Nia Griffith
Is the Minister not aware of the many local authorities and private care companies that provide care? Their arrangements could be replicated in the independent care packages.
Mr Davey
Of course, those would be covered if we went down this route.
What would be the benefit of extending health and safety laws to individuals and increasing the scope of our criminal regime? Why would we want to give health and safety inspectors a new right to visit millions of homes? Why would we want to pass quite an intrusive law, which the previous Government baulked at? The evidence of the need for such a change is weak, to say the least. Despite what the hon. Member for Llanelli said, households are low risk in health and safety terms. If there is any increased vulnerability for domestic workers, it arises not from health and safety concerns, but from issues such as their treatment by their employers, which is already covered in other legislation.
Of course, we could have voted for the convention and then not ratified it.
Fiona Mactaggart
Before the hon. Gentleman leaves health and safety, will he answer the first question I asked him? I asked for a specific example of a small employer, none of the employees of which had died and which was not suspected of putting customers at risk, but which had been prosecuted.
Mr Davey
I do not have such an example at my fingertips. I will write to the hon. Lady. However, she fails to address the fear that introducing these provisions would engender, which my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire addressed.
If we had voted for the convention and then not ratified it, what would that have said about the UK? We have heard a lot about our reputation, but other ILO members undermine the ILO by not going ahead and ratifying conventions they have voted for, which is no good for the ILO or labour rights. In the negotiations, we tried to come up with a convention that we could have voted for and ratified—that is what we want. We worked very hard on that and we supported the development of the convention because we see it as important. We rightly meet our legal obligations and do not run away from them.
That is a conventional approach to the ILO, and it is one the previous Government took. Let me explain that by giving some examples. The previous Government abstained in an ILO vote on the maternity protection convention in 2000. I think they would have supported the convention, but it no doubt had some burdensome implications in domestic law. The previous Government also abstained in the 2006 vote on the ILO’s recommendations on employment relationships. That was probably not because they were against the principles, but because they realised that the provisions would have an impact on UK legislation. In other words, we are taking exactly the same approach as the previous Government.
During the debate, it has been suggested that we are letting the rest of the world down and sending a signal that we do not care about these issues, which is one of the more outrageous suggestions I have heard, given the records of the previous Government and this Government. This Government are leading the world in taking practical action to combat human trafficking and to help exploited workers around the globe. Members should consider the Department for International Development’s funding for the Salvation Army anti-child trafficking project in Malawi or its new programme aimed at reducing human trafficking in south Asia, which focuses on helping women and girl domestic workers and garment sector workers. Members should also consider our support for other Governments’ anti-trafficking efforts, such as the Bangladesh police reform project, which established a specialised police unit to combat human trafficking. Above all, Members should consider the increase in the overseas aid budget, which comes when other budgets at home are being cut.
I therefore totally reject the suggestion that we are not showing leadership in the fight against some of the awful crimes we have heard about. We are showing leadership here, and we showed leadership on the convention. We regret that we were unable to vote for it, because others were unable to give member states more flexibility in a sensible and measured way.
Kirkstall Forge Railway Station
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)
I am pleased to have secured this debate, which means an awful lot to my constituency. The prospects for Kirkstall Forge are hugely important to local residents, who have been waiting a long time for them to advance. My predecessor worked hard on the issue, and I too have devoted a lot of time to it as the Member of Parliament for Leeds West. It would be reassuring to hear some answers about the future of Kirkstall Forge today.
If you will indulge me slightly, Mr Howarth, I want to explain some of the history of the site, which gives an important context to the issues I want to raise. The site lies between the A65 and the river Aire, one of the major routes in and out of Leeds. The A65 runs along the valley floor, past the remains of the Cistercian abbey. Hon. Members may have seen the production “Frankenstein’s Wedding” that took place there, on the BBC recently. It is one of the best preserved abbeys in the country, and as well as playing host to fictional weddings it is the home of an annual festival, which will take place next week, live concerts, plays and, recently, a farmers market.
The monks of the abbey commenced work on the site of the forge more than 800 years ago, and until its closure at the turn of the century it could lay claim to being the longest operating forge in the country. The monks powered their forge through a mill race diverted from the river, which remains today. More recently the forge was turned to heavy industrial use, seizing the opportunities of first rail and then road transport to manufacture axles for trains and motor vehicles. The forge employed an army of workers, who were housed in Hawksworth wood, just up the hill from the site. Its economic success depended on a stop on a railway line at the forge site.
Now that has all gone. The high wall that once hid a hive of activity is now a barrier between the community and derelict space. Since the forge closed it has been purchased by a developer, laying the groundwork for a major project that could mean the forge being brought back into the heart of the Kirkstall community. The plans for Kirskstall Forge are exciting. They offer the prospect of more than 2,000 jobs and more than 1,000 new homes—regeneration for an area much in need of investment. Crucially, however, they also offer improved sustainable transport into Leeds city centre in the east and Bradford to the west, because a new station is integral to the plans. That is why this debate falls within the remit of the Department for Transport.
High-speed rail and the southern entrance to Leeds city station are welcome developments in transport infrastructure in our city. I know that they will bring Leeds significant benefits. However, the project I am outlining, incorporating improvements to stations and the development of two stations—at Kirkstall Forge and at Apperley Bridge—is part of the Leeds rail growth package. When decisions were made about investment in major transport projects in October, there were three categories: supported projects, unsupported projects and a rather more ambiguous development pool in the middle. Kirkstall Forge fell into that uncertain hinterland, where 22 schemes must find extra money if they are to be successful. Those schemes have sat in limbo since then.
The Secretary of State for Transport told the House that schemes in the development pool would be
“challenged…to consider the scope of the scheme, its cost, lower-cost alternatives and their ability to contribute more locally.”—[Official Report, 26 October 2010; Vol. 517, c. 179.]
The Secretary of State also referred to a further 34 schemes that would be considered as candidates for the development pool, but which had not quite made it that far. The Government have invited improved funding offers, and indicated that final decisions about support for schemes would be made by the end of 2011. I would appreciate it if the Minister would today confirm the timetable for making those decisions, so that we can have some clarity about the process, and tell us the number of schemes in the development pool at the moment, their combined value and the money that is likely to be available for them.
People in Leeds West want to know what is happening to the forge site, and developers, councillors and local transport officials need to start putting plans in place.
Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)
I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing this important debate. Does she agree that the benefits are far greater than just for the site itself? The massive developments in my constituency, in Aireborough and Pudsey, could also benefit enormously.
Rachel Reeves
The hon. Gentleman is correct. He has been a big supporter of the development, and I appreciate that. The benefits of the Kirkstall Forge site, including the jobs and housing that it will bring, will have an effect across Leeds but also, I believe, as far away as Bradford.
First and foremost among the scheme’s benefits are its transport benefits. The forge site used to depend on a rail halt to distribute axles around the country. Now, the development that is planned depends on a rapid link into Leeds city centre, and to Bradford. The construction of a station at that point would offer journeys of five minutes into Leeds city centre, a vast improvement on the prospects when travelling by bus or car on the busy A65, which can take as long as 30 minutes, as I know well. The new station would be linked to both Kirkstall and Bramley, and would encourage more sustainable transport for both those communities. Does the Minister agree that we should be encouraging a shift away from cars, particularly in busy urban areas where traffic jams are a common problem, with big environmental, business and economic costs?
As well as offering sustainable, efficient transport, the Kirkstall Forge development promises major opportunities for Kirkstall. It would lever in £350 million of investment in the area, and support 2,400 jobs, in construction and then on site permanently in offices, shops and leisure venues. That is hugely important to an area that has for a long time missed out. Average earnings in my constituency are £18,000—two thirds of the national average—and unemployment stands substantially above the national average. The Hawksworth Wood estate, initially built to house workers on the forge site, now has no major local employer, and residents look to the city centre for work, when it exists. The take-up of free school meals at the local primary school runs at 60% —among the highest in the country. Does the Minister recognise that the scheme could bring multi-million pound investment to an area much in need of regeneration, and will he take that into account when considering the funding allocation for the scheme?
Housing is also a big issue. The proposed development includes living space for 2,600 people. It would make use of brownfield land that is currently lying empty to develop houses that would not impinge on Leeds’s green belt, or demand that residents use cars to get to or from work. From my constituency surgeries I know about the huge demand in that part of Leeds for social housing, but also for housing to buy and rent in the private sector. The pressure on developments just a couple of miles away from my constituency in the green belt is also well known to the hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) and other MPs in the area.
When I have raised the issue in the past, I have been told that local support is important. In a letter to me, the Minister of State said:
“We are happy to support the re-opening of new railway stations where the relevant Passenger Transport Executive believes that this is the best way to meet local transport needs and where the scheme demonstrates value for money and is affordable.”
I can confirm, as I have done in the past, the support of Metro, the West Yorkshire passenger transport executive. Leeds city council, local councillors and MPs of all parties across Leeds support the plans, as do the chamber of commerce and local businesses. Crucially, the Minister also knows that the development has strong support in the local community: I have received a significant number of letters and e-mails in support of the project, including from residents’ associations and community groups. I know that many residents will be watching proceedings today or following them later in Hansard to see where we stand. Will the Minister recognise those factors in the decision-making process?
I accept that developments need to be affordable; and cost savings have been made to the scheme. Metro has found approximately 20% in savings through changes to the scheme, and it has also been in discussion with the developers to increase their contribution to the station. At programme entry, the developer had pledged £4 million towards the overall £23 million cost of the Leeds rail growth package. That in itself is a considerable investment on top of the wider investment in the Kirkstall Forge site. The funding requested from the Department for Transport will have fallen by more than 30% since the development pool was initiated, and the station will now cost the Department between £12.3 million and £12.9 million. The local contribution will be over £5.5 million, or more than 25% of the total cost of the project, reflecting an additional £2.6 million investment, subject to agreement.
Will the Minister outline the extent of private contributions to other schemes in the development pool, in comparison with contributions from the private sector and locally for the Leeds rail growth package and the Kirkstall Forge development? Does he believe that this extensive contribution reflects the developer’s commitment to the scheme, as well as the commitment of Leeds city council and the passenger transport executive?
Kirkstall Forge can again play an active part in the life of the local community, as it has done in the past. The Minister’s Department holds the key to unlocking that potential, and the railway station is integral to the development. Without the station, the economic benefits of new business space and housing will be much less clear, as the site will be poorly connected to the urban hubs of Leeds and Bradford. Moreover, the impact of the development on the local community will be significantly enhanced if local people can benefit from improved transport links, and if roads are not congested because of the new homes—and new commuters.
The original Kirkstall forge powered jobs and growth in Leeds and Leeds West, and the new development could play a huge role in the economic future of the area, encouraging more sustainable transport, as well as sustainable housing and sustainable jobs. It has major financial backing, it has widespread local support and it fits the Government’s criteria for rail development. Will the Minister clarify the future of Kirkstall Forge railway station, and its place in the Leeds rail growth package?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)
I welcome the chance to engage twice in one week with the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), and I congratulate her on securing this debate. It is on a subject that is of great interest to her existing constituents and to those who may contemplate moving to the Kirkstall Forge area in the years to come, as well as to my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) and others in the area.
I assure the hon. Lady and her constituents that the coalition Government have rail at the heart of their transport strategy. We recognise that railways can contribute fundamentally to the key overarching objectives of the Department for Transport, which are to foster economic growth and reduce the carbon emissions of the transport sector. The railways can also help to reduce our fiscal deficit, if the money is appropriately deployed. Given the significant pressure on public spending, we are determined to maximise the value of that expenditure, as people would expect.
Investing in our rail network will help to cater for the rapidly growing number of people making rail journeys in all parts of the country. Our rail network is essential in allowing millions of people to get to and from work every day, and in moving people around the country for business and for leisure or pleasure. Between 1994 and 2009, the number of miles travelled by rail passengers in Britain every year nearly doubled from 18 billion to 32 billion, and that growth shows no sign of slowing. It has been resistant to the problems in the economy of the last three or four years.
Transport did well in the comprehensive spending review, and over the next four years we will invest over £30 billion in transport projects across Britain, with £18 billion being committed to the railways. There is significant pressure on public spending, so we are determined to maximise the value of our expenditure.
The Government welcome the publication of Sir Roy McNulty’s independent study on rail value for money. The study found that although performance and safety have improved markedly over the last decade, our railways are 40% more expensive per passenger mile than those of our European competitors. The Government are considering the recommendations that are directed to them, and will deliver their response later this year.
In parallel, the Government are developing a wider rail strategy to ensure an affordable, sustainable, safe and high-quality railway that will deliver a better deal for taxpayers and for fare payers. That strategy will clearly set out the roles of Government, both central and local, of the train operators and of Network Rail in securing the future of the railway.
The Government have ambitious plans for investment in rail infrastructure and rolling stock. That is possible only because the Government have taken the tough decisions necessary to protect future investment in the UK’s rail industry. Over the next four years, we will provide £14 billion to Network Rail to support capital maintenance and infrastructure investment. We are funding and delivering the Thameslink programme, virtually doubling the number of north-south trains running through central London at peak times. About 600 new carriages will be provided for the Crossrail project, and up to 1,200 new carriages will be procured for Thameslink. A further 650 carriages will have been delivered to the network by March 2014.
On 1 March, the Secretary of State announced that Scotland, Wales and northern and south-west England are to get a fleet of new trains, and more reliable rail links to London. That will create thousands of jobs, boost the economy and improve services for passengers. He gave the go-ahead for the £4.5 billion intercity express programme and for the plans to electrify the Great Western main line between Cardiff, Bristol and Didcot.
Subject to consultation, the Government will proceed with plans for a national high-speed rail network, spending over £750 million during the period of the spending review. When complete, that will dramatically reduce journey times and increase capacity on routes between Britain’s major population centres; it will bring Birmingham within 49 minutes of London by rail, and Manchester and Leeds—the latter will be of particular interest to the hon. Lady—to within about 80 minutes. Connections to existing lines will also be included, allowing direct high-speed services to our major towns and cities. The capacity released on existing lines would allow an expansion of commuter, regional and freight services.
Mr George Howarth (in the Chair)
Order. I have been listening carefully to the Minister, and I realise that he is setting out the context of Government expenditure on transport. However, at some point soon he needs to speak on the specific subject of the debate, which is Kirkstall Forge railway station.
Norman Baker
Indeed, Mr Howarth. However, as the hon. Lady finished five minutes early, I have taken the opportunity to put the matter into the general context of our rail policy.
Suffice it to say that we are driving out inefficiencies on the railways and reducing costs. However, we are making what I believe is the biggest investment in rail, including in the Leeds area, that we have seen since Victorian times. That should give the hon. Lady some comfort. There is a hard-nosed economic and environmental case for investing in rail. I turn now to Kirkstall Forge.
A new station at Kirkstall Forge has been a high priority for Metro, the West Yorkshire passenger transport executive, for many years, and I know that considerable progress has been made towards achieving that objective. The coalition Government are committed to localism, and that determines our approach to local rail. We realise that local rail networks have to adapt in order to serve new and expanding communities, which is why we welcome PTEs taking the initiative. PTEs, working with local enterprise partnerships, where they exist, are best placed to identify the needs of local areas, and to identify and secure funding for new lines, new train services or stations, if they believe that that is the best way to meet local transport needs and the wider objectives of economic growth, housing growth and carbon reduction.
The development at Kirkstall Forge is a large one, and in the spirit of localism it is entirely right that Metro should take the lead in developing solutions to the transport issues that the development will give rise to. Metro has a good record in identifying sustainable transport solutions. For example, we welcome Metro’s and Leeds city council’s commitment to more sustainable solutions for the city region, as set out in the local transport plan 3, “My Journey”. We have backed their judgment by providing £12 million towards the cost of the Leeds station southern entrance, which will do much to improve access to new major housing and commercial developments to the south of the city centre.
The proposed Kirkstall Forge station will complement the A65 Kirkstall road quality bus corridor, to which the Department will be making a contribution of £19.8 million, and that is on track to open in 2012. It is a busy and congested corridor that is heavily used by commuters, so these two schemes will help to provide a sustainable alternative to car commuting.
The hon. Lady asked specifically about the shift from the car. The Department recognises, first, that we have to use transport to drive economic growth. Secondly, however, we have a responsibility to use transport in a way that reduces carbon emissions. We are certainly keen to secure a reduction in carbon emissions, and that could mean a modal shift from car to rail, particularly until the road transport network has been decarbonised, which is some way off.
Metro is seeking funding from the Department’s budget for local authority major schemes. The outcome of the spending review is testament to our commitment to such schemes. We recognise that well-designed proposals can make a big contribution to economic growth.
We plan to spend more on local authority major schemes in this spending review period than the average spend over the past 10 years. Nevertheless, that cannot fund all the schemes from the previous regional funding allocations process that promoters wished to deliver, and we will need to rationalise. Put simply, we inherited a completely unrealistic pipeline of schemes, and we have had to rationalise those as best we can. For the future, we want to move away from a top-down approach to determining local transport needs, working towards a more devolved system for funding local authority major schemes, with local enterprise partnerships taking on an important role. However, for this spending review, we need to rationalise the previous Government’s programme, so we have invited final bids from the promoters of 45 schemes from the previous programme. The Leeds rail growth package is one such scheme, and we believe it will now consist of new stations for both Kirkstall Forge and Apperley Bridge. Metro will submit a final bid in September to the Department, which we will consider alongside the others we expect to receive, including bids for maintenance for the Leeds inner ring road and the New Generation Transport trolley bus scheme, and will make an announcement in December 2011. I hope that that helps to confirm the timetable which the hon. Lady asked about.
Although I cannot indicate how successful the Leeds growth package bid might be, because it is a competitive process and obviously the bids are not in yet, we will look favourably on schemes for which promoters have reduced their funding requests to the Department. I can confirm that, and I note the comments that the hon. Lady made about increased private contributions. I am aware that a developer contribution has been secured towards Kirkstall Forge station and that Metro is scaling down the size of the bid by removing some additional car parking schemes at stations elsewhere.
In its bid, Metro will also have to demonstrate that the scheme provides value for money and that there is no ongoing cost to the Department arising from the stations’ introduction. That is an important point, as our policy is that new stations should cover their ongoing costs from newly generated fare income. However, I understand that Metro is confident that over time that will be achieved.
It is proposed that Kirkstall Forge and Apperley Bridge stations will be served by inserting calls in the services that run between Bradford Forster Square and Leeds stations, which have spare capacity to accommodate the new users from the stations. It is for Metro to discuss with Northern train operating company and Network Rail how those calls are to be accommodated within the timetable, given that the additional stops will increase end-to-end journey times by about four minutes in each direction. The good news is that we have recently agreed to fund the provision of additional carriages on the electrified routes to the north-west of Leeds, so Metro and Northern are now in a better position to determine whether further rolling stock will be required to enable the calls to be made.
I have tried to cover the points that the hon. Lady raised. She explicitly asked whether I would take into account wider economic factors in determining applications—yes, we will absolutely do that. The Secretary of State recently published a new transport business case appraisal system, which was announced to Parliament through a written ministerial statement. The hon. Lady may want to get a copy of that. She will be able to see the factors we now take into account to determine transport projects. Broadly speaking, the changes made to the valuation process have increased the value of carbon, so, on the face of it, they marginally benefit public transport schemes and marginally disbenefit road schemes.
The hon. Lady asked about private contributions to other schemes in the development pool. That information is simply not available yet, because we do not know what the final bids from the other schemes will be. The deadline for all bids is September, and obviously we will not be able to make a judgment until they all come in. I reiterate that private contributions are important. We are looking for buy-in, not only from the local transport authority, but from the wider community. Private contributions are therefore important, not simply to reduce the call upon the taxpayer, but to demonstrate commitment to the particular project for which an application is being made. In all the bids that come forward, we will be looking for details of private contributions, the support of the local community, and evidence that there have been sensible attempts to reduce costs wherever possible.
The hon. Lady appears to be confident that Metro has addressed those issues, and if it has, that will count in its bid’s favour, as and when it comes in.
Rachel Reeves
I welcome the answers the Minister has given.
To return to the wider economic benefits of the development, a point that I tried to get across was about deprivation in that part of Leeds West, particularly on the Hawksworth Wood estate—I mentioned the proportion of free school meals—and in Bramley, which has one of the highest proportions of young people not in education, employment or training. As well as the aggregate externalities and economic benefits that would come from the development, will the Department look at the importance of economic regeneration and how the returns in areas such as Kirkstall or Bramley might benefit some of the most deprived communities when compared with developments in areas where there are already good jobs and low levels of unemployment?
The Secretary of State’s approach to developing a package of bids to be approved has been successful in driving down costs on the bids that have been agreed so far. That has meant that the number of bids that have been able to be approved so far has been greater than if that discipline had not been applied. By driving down costs, we have been able to approve more schemes than would otherwise have been the case, so we have been able to make more progress than many dared hope given the unrealistic pipeline we inherited. That approach is not simply good value for money for the taxpayer, but helpful in spreading the money as widely as possible.
In conclusion, I am grateful to the hon. Lady for raising the issue. I know that there is genuine concern in her constituency and others that the proposed station goes ahead without delay.
Rachel Reeves
I have some more questions before the Minister concludes. What is the total pot of money available for the 45 schemes that remain in the development pool? I recognise that due to savings and increased private sector contributions costs may have fallen since the projects went into the development pool, but how much were they worth then? What is the difference between the amount of money in the pool and how much the schemes were bidding for? Does he have that information?
Norman Baker
I am not sure that I can give that detailed information now, but I shall write to the hon. Lady. The amount of money available is about £700 million—that is a rough figure for her to consider. I will drop her a line to give her the specific information she asked about.
The debate has been useful. I look forward to receiving a final bid from Metro in September. It will be properly and objectively analysed according to the criteria that Metro has been notified about, which I have referred to today. Decisions will be made known to MPs and others in December.
Coal-fired Power Stations
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)
I am pleased to have secured this debate on what I consider one of the most important issues the country faces at the moment. It is also a pleasure to serve for the first time under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth.
I have a number of concerns that require a great deal of attention. Principally, our nation’s ability to ensure energy security is very important. Will we be able to keep the lights on in the future? Many customers and constituents are keen to ensure that the Government are focused on that question. How are we to keep the lights on, without becoming completely reliant on our European neighbours? Although we have a European market and many nearby nations are able to supply electricity, I am concerned about how secure that supply is, and how amiable their taxpayers will be about giving British people electricity when they may run short at the same time.
Throughout history, this nation has been served well by coal-fired power stations. Coal as an energy source to generate electricity is flexible, reliable and dependable. However, there are a number of pressures, such as the requirement to reduce our carbon footprint, that are calling that into question.
Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) on securing this important debate. Does he agree that it is not just an issue of energy security? There is also an issue in relation to facilities such as Daw Mill colliery in my constituency, where nearly 700 people work. In addition to issues around energy security, should we not be concerned to ensure that we still use the coal that is under our feet in Warwickshire, so that we are not exporting carbon emissions abroad and are supporting UK jobs?
Mr Spencer
I will come to that point later. I should put on record that some of my constituents in Nottinghamshire travel to Warwickshire to work at Daw Mill. That we have so much coal under our feet is pertinent, as is the fact that so many constituents rely on the coal industry for employment.
I will start by outlining the current usage and how we generate power. Coal produces more than 35% of the UK’s base load of electricity during an average year. In recent winters, when the weather has been cold, that base load lifted to 50% of the supply generated by coal. That emphasises not only how dependent we are on coal, but how flexible it is, responding to the requirements of the British public. On a cold Christmas day when everyone is trying to cook their turkey at the same time, we need a great deal of flexibility in the supply chain to be able to respond. I want to touch later on the fact that, unfortunately, the wind does not blow harder on Christmas day than on any other day of the year. We need that flexibility to respond to demand.
Fossil fuels as a whole account for 80% of our energy supply: coal being 25%, gas 21% and petroleum 34%. In addition, nuclear provides 6.5%; hydro 2.2%; and biomass waste 11%. Only 0.4% of global energy demand is met by geothermal, solar and wind. Estimates suggest that world demand for coal-fired generation will increase by 70% in the period up to 2030. China is currently constructing the equivalent of two 500 MW coal-fired power stations a week, a capacity comparable to the entire UK power grid each year. Those figures are quite pertinent and put in perspective where the UK fits into a global generation market. About a third of UK electricity is generated from coal but it currently emits more CO2 per unit of electricity than all other forms of generation. That is something we need to address.
The UK has installed electricity capacity of 77 GW. By 2016, it is expected to face a shortfall of 32 GW, as older coal, nuclear and oil plant is closed down, as demand rises. That is crucial and key to the debate today. Government policy is currently to introduce a floor price for carbon. Many of the coal-fired generators recognise that that is going to put enormous pressure to be economic on their business. In the medium to short term, it will not be possible to secure nuclear power stations that deliver the energy that we require. Generators that produce power via coal are working their units very hard to secure as much return on their investment as possible. There will be a period when our ability to generate power will be short, and the Government need to look long and hard at how we will close that gap.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) suggested, coal is currently plentiful. It is relatively cheap, flexible and able to respond quickly. We are not prone to outages, and coal is not vulnerable to geopolitical risk. Coal generates about 40% of the world’s electricity, with about 10% each for gas and nuclear. Coal burned by major electricity generators, which account for 80% of total coal use, was up 3% in 2005. Coal burned in UK power stations was 23% higher in the third quarter of 2006 than in the same period in 2005. Coal demand is rising. That demonstrates not only how reliant on coal we are in this country, but the pertinent fact that use is increasing.
UK pits and mines are pretty efficient. We have heard about Daw Mill. Thoresby colliery in my constituency is very efficient in its coal production. I am delighted it has now had permission to explore another seam, which will secure the future of that colliery for at least the next 10 to 12 years.
Given current global energy consumption, it is estimated that there are enough recoverable coal reserves to provide the entire planet with all its energy for the next 600 years, at the current rate of usage. Britain is estimated to have 7 gigatonnes of coal left. In power stations performing carbon capture and storage, we could deliver a sustainable and reliable approach to energy production.
Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con)
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) for securing the debate. He is right about the importance of energy security, especially over the next 10 to 15 years. Does he agree that we need a balanced energy market and security of supply, in which, as he says, coal will play a key role? He touched on carbon capture, which will be the key way potentially to keep many of our coal-fired power stations burning and supplying energy over the short term of 10 to 15 years.
Mr Spencer
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. That point is fundamental to the debate: coal is recognised as being flexible, but we need to embrace the technology of carbon capture and storage. That is something that I want to explore in more detail later. It is interesting that my hon. Friend touches on carbon capture and storage, because those are new clean technologies that have been proven to work. Powerfuel’s new development at Hatfield, Yorkshire, is backed by Friends of the Earth. It is a good example of how new clean coal plant can be developed and can work in practice.
I turn to the environmental side of the argument. Despite legally binding targets to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, in 2008 91.5% of UK energy supply was met by the use of carbon-intensive fossil fuels. We need to address that figure seriously if we are to, first, meet our energy demands and, secondly, reduce this nation’s carbon footprint.
EDF Energy has said that, between now and 2016, 13 GW of coal and oil baseload plant will close. Other ageing coal plants may also close by 2016 and 7.5 GW worth of nuclear closures are scheduled by 2015. EDF Energy reached its figure of a 32 GW shortfall by factoring in the expected closures, the expected growth in demand for electricity and the expected growth in line with the renewables obligation. That figure of a 32 GW shortfall will be a terrifying one unless we find ways of plugging the gap that do not necessarily involve laying cables across the channel so that we become dependent on our near neighbours.
If the UK coal-fired power stations were replaced over time with clean coal plants, the UK would stand at the head of an energy revolution, we would be secure in our energy supply and we would also be comfortably within the environmental emissions targets. I hope that the Government can find a way to support investment in clean coal technology so that we can achieve some of those goals.
Carbon dioxide capture and storage—CCS—is the critical enabling technology that would reduce CO2 emissions significantly while also allowing coal to meet the world’s pressing energy needs. It is important to recognise that this is a global issue. While we are considering UK energy generation, it would be foolish not to observe what is happening on the rest of planet Earth. I have already mentioned China and the number of power plants that it is producing. If we can find, develop and enhance CCS technology, we could position ourselves well in the world.
Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on raising this very important issue. Given the timetable before us—the site contract is to be signed by Scottish Power by 2011, but we will not see any real production until later—is he as concerned as I am that there will be a gap in the energy market and we will not be able to fulfil the energy requirements of this country? How will we overcome that problem if we do not move the energy agenda forward?
Mr Spencer
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention and that is exactly the point—there is this gap and we must find a way to fill it. A Government of whatever colour have to address this issue quickly and grab it with both hands, because we cannot afford to be in a position where that gap increases and we cannot keep the power on. I therefore commit myself to supporting him in lobbying Government to ensure that we fill that gap. I hope that the Minister will reassure us at some point that we can fill it.
CCS is a means of mitigating the contribution of fossil fuel emissions to global warming. The process is based on capturing CO2 from large point sources, for example power stations, and storing it in such a way that it does not enter the atmosphere. CCS can also be used to describe the “scrubbing” of CO2 from ambient air as a geo-engineering technique. Although CO2 has been injected into geological formations for various purposes, the long-term storage of CO2 is a relatively new concept. The first commercial example of its use was at Weyburn in 2000.
I want to explore the three groups into which CCS can be split: post-combustion; pre-combustion; and oxyfuel.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate, not least because I live opposite Drax power station, which is the most efficient, cleanest and biggest coal-fired power station in the country. Is he aware of the consultation that is going on in my own village of Airmyn today, between 2pm and 7pm, which relates to the National Grid’s proposal for a CCS pipeline that would serve the steelworks at Scunthorpe as well as the power stations across north-west and south Yorkshire? As I say, that consultation is going on at the moment. That pipeline is an exciting prospect and it offers the possibility of extending the life of some of our power stations.
Mr Spencer
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. In fact, I have the Drax report here in front of me and I know that he is working very actively to ensure that his constituents are well represented in that consultation. Drax is a very good example of what can be achieved. The work that it has done in blending biomass with coal to improve its carbon footprint is an example of how we can improve things with the technology that exists today. Also, working with other industries, such as the steel industry, is quite an exciting prospect and I welcome that happening; in fact, I recognise that that good work is ongoing.
Flue gas desulphurisation is not a new technology. It has been used for some time. Ratcliffe-on-Soar, the largest power station near my own constituency, has introduced a great deal of new technology to capture the sulphur emitted from the power unit. FGD is simple, actually. It basically works by mixing limestone with water, which is then sprayed into the power station chimneys through which the flue gases pass after the coal is burned. The sulphur in the flue gas reacts chemically with the injected spray and forms calcium sulphate, with only a small proportion of the sulphur being ejected into the atmosphere. The resultant slurry is then pumped away, dried and made into gypsum, which is beneficial to the power station and can be used to generate income for it. FGD equipment also allows coal-fired plants to meet the requirements of the EU large combustion plant directive.
The second group of CCS technologies is integrated gasification combined cycle, which is a pre-combustion technology. IGCC is a near-zero-emissions clean coal solution for the UK. It would significantly reduce CO2 emissions as well as providing pressurised gas for injection into North sea oilfields, thereby enhancing the recovery of oil reserves, which is known as enhanced oil recovery. Powerfuel is now constructing one of Britain’s first IGCC clean coal power stations in Yorkshire, again using British coal from an adjacent colliery. I will try to put the process into simple language. It sometimes becomes very difficult to extract crude oil from wells and there is a technique whereby the CO2 can be mixed to reduce the viscosity of the oil, allowing the oil to be removed from the wells more easily.
Super-critical power plant is a type of clean coal technology whereby it is possible to retrofit this technology to the power stations that we already have. The benefits of operating a super-critical power plant over a conventional plant are clear. Conventional boilers have an operating efficiency of about 30%, which means only 30% of the energy in the coal is converted into electricity with the rest being lost as heat. Super-critical boilers have efficiency levels of around 42% to 46%, so more energy is directed to turning the turbines to generate electricity and therefore less greenhouse gas is produced per kilowatt-hour. Improving the efficiency of boilers used in coal-fired power stations not only reduces CO2 emissions, because less coal is needed to generate the heat energy that turns the steam turbines, but it results in higher generator efficiencies in the provision of the electricity. The boilers are available commercially and can be retrofitted to existing coal-fired plants, which means no major retraining of staff, faster deployment and reduced capital costs with greater efficiency. It seems like a win-win situation to me.
Doosan Babcock Energy has stated that Britain could cut the cost of reducing greenhouse gases by £3 billion if it fitted such clean technology to its ageing power stations. Lobbying goes on for Government to introduce a form of incentive for power generators—one similar to the renewables obligation certificates—to invest in clean coal technology. Creating such an incentive seems the right thing to do and I hope that this debate will assist the Government in some of their thinking, and perhaps we can consider supporting this technology.
Doosan Babcock Energy says that applying this technology to existing coal-fired power stations would be the equivalent of erecting 7,000 to 10,000 wind turbines. Members in Westminster Hall today who have had the pleasure of a local application for a wind turbine will be relieved that we could reduce the number of those applications, one of which I currently have in my constituency. Typical construction costs for current coal-fired power station designs are in the region of £700,000 to £900,000 per megawatt. More advanced integrated gasification combined gas cycle plants cost between £900,000 and £1.3 million per megawatt, although lower capital costs of £750,000 to £900,000 per megawatt are predicted as technology moves forward and we become better at fitting it. The 2002 energy review by the performance and innovation unit put the costs of coal-fired power stations in the 3p to 3.5p per kilowatt-hour range by 2020. That would make coal competitive with nuclear power, if the costs of decommissioning nuclear power stations were included.
Briefly, I want to explore carbon abatement capture. The idea of carbon capture is simple and powerful. The CO2 must be segregated from the fossil fuel combustion products and deposited in a place where it will remain. The CO2 emissions from a clean coal plant will be reduced to virtually zero if the plant has been designed to store the carbon. The CO2 can then be disposed of in, for example, the emptying fields of the North sea, where it can consequently extend the life of those oil fields by applying pressure to an old and difficult-to-extract reserve, thereby prolonging production. I shall try to put that into layman’s terms. The gas is pumped into the hole where the oil is coming from, which assists in removing some of the oil, and stores the CO2 back underground, where the carbon was for millions of years. It is a three-step process, of capturing the CO2 from the power plant, transporting it—as my hon. Friend the Member for Brigg and Goole (Andrew Percy) said—to another place via a pipeline, and finally storing or using it.
The British Geological Survey estimates that the potential carbon dioxide storage in the UK sector of the North sea is 775 gigatonnes. That is a considerable amount, given that worldwide CO2 output is 8 gigatonnes annually, and it means that in the North sea alone there could be almost a century’s worth of CO2 storage for the whole world. That is a fantastic statistic, which proves that we have the storage available as long as we can embrace it and find a way, via the technology, to make use of it.
Carbon capture and storage in a coal-fired plant would cost just over £20 per tonne of CO2, while the figure for a gas-fired plant is about £30 a tonne. It could be argued that that is because a coal plant produces more, but coal is certainly cheaper per tonne than gas for CO2 emitted. Using CO2 for enhanced oil recovery can generate revenue that offsets the other costs of CCS. The cost of storing CO2 in aquifers is close to £l per tonne, and the cost of storing it in oil and gas field plants ranges from £1 to £20 per tonne. Therefore, as well as being fairly reasonable, this method could generate income if we can get it right and make it work. Depleted oil and gas fields are the first sites to be considered for storage capacity because they are known to be equipped with infrastructure such as pipelines and platforms, and are almost ready to run now.
The other area that I really want to explore, and which I know my predecessor as MP for Sherwood, Paddy Tipping, and his predecessor Andy Stewart explored, is underground coal gasification. This is a method of converting unworked coal into a combustible gas, which can be used for industrial heating, power generation and the manufacture of hydrogen, synthetic gas or diesel fuel. The basic UCG process involves drilling two wells into the coal, one for the injection of oxidants and another—some distance away—for bringing the product gas to the surface. I acknowledge that the process involves a number of challenges, not least of which is whether once the process has been started it can be controlled, and there are also the impacts on subsidence above surface level, depending on what happens to the coal below ground. Nevertheless, we should consider using UCG for reserves under the sea. Cost estimates of UCG clean gas stand at £2.50 a gigajoule, whereas the current price of national gas is £6 a gigajoule.
As for the economic merits, clean coal is competitive, with an estimated generating cost of between 2p and 3.5p per kilowatt-hour. Wind power, for example, costs between 3.7p and 5.5p per kilowatt-hour. The Government seem fairly committed at this moment in time to wind power, but when the costs are added up and the subsidies stripped out it is not as competitive as some of the other available technology. Clean coal is also more acceptable to constituents than erecting large wind turbines in the vicinity of their homes.
Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)
I am listening carefully to the hon. Gentleman as he makes his powerful case for coal. Is he not overplaying, however, the role of wind power? He indicated earlier that, when wind is needed most, in the cold weather when there are anticyclones, it is not there, so we have to have the coal-fired capacity, and if the wind blows too much, we again have to have that capacity. Wind power is irrelevant to the security of energy supply in this country.
Mr Spencer
The hon. Gentleman is absolutely correct, and I will cite some statistics later that support his view. Offshore wind has a role to play in assisting electricity generation but we do require that base load. I do not want to overemphasise this, but when the World cup final half-time whistle goes or when everyone wants to cook their turkey on Christmas day, we have to have the capacity to lift that generation. However, the Government currently do not have the power to control the wind and can rely only on what is available.
Andrew Percy
I have issues with onshore wind, but I never miss an opportunity to sell the Humber for its offshore wind capacity, particularly in front of the Minister. Is it not a bit of a false argument that we are in favour of either one technology or the other? What my hon. Friend and the Government are saying is that we want a broad mix. A technology that is not as far advanced as perhaps it should be is tidal, to which I understand the Government have just committed some money. It is not about being on one side of the argument; it is about being on all sides and having a balanced energy mix.
Mr Spencer
It is true that we need to take a balanced view and ensure that we explore the new technologies. I think that tidal and wave power are great, and if they work they will contribute a small amount to this nation’s energy security. The important thing to note though is that it will be a small amount, because those technologies do not have a large enough share of the market. The number of areas where we could secure a tidal scheme—the Severn estuary is one example—is small, and there are no opportunities to generate enormous amounts of electricity via such schemes. I acknowledge that we need a mixed portfolio, but that works only if there is something there to pick up the base load. The crux of my argument is that the only methods that can be used to pick up the base load are nuclear power and coal-fired power stations, and we are not in a position to build nuclear power stations fast enough to plug the inevitable gap.
On the merits of clean coal technology for the environment, the biggest long-term problem for coal is its carbon dioxide level. Approximately 90% of the CO2 produced by a coal-fired power station could be captured with CCS, and CCS could help to make up to 20% of the global cuts in emissions that are needed by 2050. Therefore, if we can find the technology that will work, we can sell it to the world, continue to use coal and at the same time cut the amount of CO2 being released into the atmosphere.
Owing to their substantial carbon emissions, coal-fired power stations are currently considered environmentally unacceptable. That is simply because we are looking at the technology of the 1960s and 1970s, rather than at what is available now and might be available in future. Coal-fired power gets a bit of a poor press, but some of what is said about it is not true.
The UK has the opportunity to be at the forefront of developing clean coal technology. That would not only be beneficial to the UK, but be a very effective way of helping developing countries, notably China and India, to take advantage of their own coal reserves in a way that is considered environmentally acceptable. We find ourselves in a situation in which the Department for International Development is funding the World Bank, which in turn is funding electricity generation in other parts of the world, and those countries are spending that cash on coal-fired power stations, which are not as environmentally friendly as they could be. If we can find a way to make the technology work and embrace it, we could sell it to other parts of the world or donate it as part of our aid programme to the more challenged parts of the world, which would benefit the planet and those more challenged countries as well.
It is vital that we are at the forefront of development. That could lead to a whole new industry. Selling the technology and building it for the world would generate enormous amounts of cash and jobs for the UK. If we are not at the forefront of its development, other countries will jump ahead of us and we will lose the opportunity. This great nation of ours has always been at the cutting edge of technology, and certainly of engineering, and we need to maintain that tradition if we possibly can.
The process of coal gasification can capture 90% of CO2 emissions for storage and can also produce a synthetic gas, known as “syngas”, which is 99.5% pure hydrogen. The beauty of that fuel is that, once fired through a conventional gas turbine, the only emission is water vapour. Although cleaning up the existing plants is welcome, it will not have the impact that those who want to reduce our CO2 emissions significantly require, nor will it capture any CO2 for alternative income generation. Coal gasification is the only process that changes one form of energy—coal—into another flexible energy source—hydrogen—but without a clear Government energy policy, IGCC technology will not happen. To be viable, the new IGCC plants require the same allocation of CO2 allowances as existing coal plants, but at present they receive the allowances for a CCGT-fired—combined cycle gas turbine—power station.
So far, generating electricity from coal has failed the environmental test because of its carbon emissions, but clean coal offers a number of strategic advantages, including the ability to ensure sustainable and competitively priced electricity and to offset security issues and the cost of importing from volatile countries in the middle east and Russia, which is key. In the past, when I challenged Ministers who said that they were more than comfortable with our arrangements with overseas suppliers, they pointed me to the fact that we have imported a vast amount of our food over the past 50 years and we have certainly never been too concerned about that. The arrangement has worked very well, but it is important to recognise that that has been during a period in which food production has been on an enormous scale and food has been plentiful. The situation may change the second we reach a position where we are short of food.
Russia decided last year not to export a single grain of wheat. That had an enormous impact on global wheat prices overnight. I can see us in a situation in which a very similar thing happens to energy. We all remember images on the news of French lamb farmers blockading their ports and stopping imports of British lamb. Such images stick with me. Can we really depend on our neighbours when we are up against the wall? Will they look after their own taxpayers and can they look after British taxpayers at the same time? That makes me very nervous. Such situations make me think that we should ensure that we are on a secure footing and that we have enough energy in the UK to supply ourselves.
Mr David Hamilton
The hon. Gentleman does not need to turn to food for an example, because only a few years ago the Russians turned the gas off to the country next to them, and prices spiked right after. If that happened over a long time and more countries did it, it would really harm our energy requirements.
Mr Spencer
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention because he makes a pertinent point. The other areas with which we are dealing, for example those in the middle east, are not as politically stable as they could be. We can easily foresee circumstances in which our ability to source energy from those parts of the world is compromised by political upheavals similar to those happening now. That could leave us exposed. I hope that we can find a way of securing our energy. We must meet rising electricity demand and smooth the less predictable output from renewables. We need to foster and promote a high-growth, low-carbon economy.
I shall now address the point raised by the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) on wind power and explain why I feel that wind power is not adequate to support our needs. Fitting clean coal technology to the UK’s 16 power plants would cost an estimated £6 billion. In comparison, 2,000 wind turbines will be put up in the UK over the next six years at a cost of £9 billion. The Government’s renewable energy policy is currently over-dependent on wind energy. That imbalance is largely the result of the renewables obligation, which provides no clear boundary as regards the merits of various renewable technologies, so the cheapest option in terms of start-up costs—wind power—has been pursued, irrespective of its failures on grounds of unreliability and secure energy.
The dangers of over-relying on wind power were demonstrated in Ireland on 4 December 2003, when the electricity regulator had to take emergency measures to reduce the amount of wind power on the Irish electric grid following major concerns about the security and stability of the power system. Simply because the wind blew too hard, too much power was being generated, so pretty quick action had to be taken to resolve it.
In contrast, Demark has the most intense concentration of wind generation in Europe. At peak output, Danish wind farms can account for nearly 64% of Danish peak power demand. That rarely occurs, but it does happen on occasion. Last year, Danish carbon emissions rose, because the Danish grid fell back on older fossil fuel generation to plug the gap left by underperforming wind farms. Danish power stations used 50% more coal than in 2005 to cover wind’s failings and wind turbines generated 21.7% of electricity, which is down from 29.4% in 2005. To put it in simple terms, when the wind does not blow, the turbines do not move and the power is not there. As the Danes have to have a stopgap base load, they use coal. Ironically, during that period the use of fossil fuels rose, which demonstrates the frustrations with the system that we are pursuing.
Graham Stringer
I agree with the hon. Gentleman completely, but the situation is actually worse in Denmark. The Danes have stopped investing in wind, because it is too expensive and destabilises the grid. When the wind is blowing, they are effectively subsidising energy in Germany and surrounding countries. They have made a terrible mistake and it would be a great pity if this country carried on subsidising wind farms—quite frankly, it would be insane given the economic state we are in.
Mr Spencer
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. The irony of the situation is that the German energy the Danish are reliant on is often produced with brown Czech coal, which is worse in terms of carbon emissions than UK coal. It does not make much sense at all.
I am conscious that I am taking up quite a lot of time, and I know that other Members wish to speak, so I will try to conclude as quickly as possible. If we look at the international competition, it is clear that we need to step up and ensure that we keep up with, if not stay in front of, the competition in terms of producing clean coal technology. In 2009, the Australian Government produced a White Paper entitled “Securing Australia’s Energy Future”, which backed the use of clean coal technology with coal from indigenous reserves, and UK climate change economist Sir Nicholas Stern recently told an Australian audience:
“I think Australia will be at the forefront of that technology”.
In the US, coal production is at full capacity. In 2005, 951 million tonnes were produced from indigenous reserves for energy supplies and for industrial use in steel and associated industries. President Obama said:
“We need to act now and make the US a leader in putting in place the incentives that ensure developing countries also embrace clean coal.”
The EU is also adopting a positive attitude towards clean coal technology, with President Jose Manuel Barroso stressing to an audience in February 2007 the need for
“an acceleration of the commercial use of clean coal”.
The UK must demonstrate a firm commitment to clean coal technology if it wishes to influence the behaviour of other nations, such as China and India, where rising C02 emissions from fossil fuels will otherwise dwarf any savings made in the UK. By 2020, China’s consumption of electricity is forecast to increase sixfold and to be 30 times that of the UK.
What is the Government’s role? Ensuring our energy security currently appears to involve laying cables under the channel, and I am concerned about how secure such an arrangement is. I can see how it could work in the short to medium term, when energy is in plentiful supply, but, as I said, I do not think French taxpayers would like their country to move to a three-day week to keep the lights on in southern England. As I said, comparisons are made with the food supply, and it is difficult to understand why we are exposing ourselves to the issues involved, when we could do better.
The Government have said that we will continue public sector investment in carbon capture and storage technology for four coal-fired power stations, but the criticism levelled at us is that we have thus far completed only the first of those four. We really need to speed up and get on with things.
In conclusion, I hope the Minister can lay some of my concerns to rest. We must keep the lights on; it is fundamental that we keep the electricity coming to this nation of ours. All the issues that we fall out about in this place will become insignificant if there is no power. Wind turbines may be of assistance, and offshore wind certainly has a role to play, albeit a small one, but I am concerned about how dependable such turbines are. Fundamentally, the base load must come from nuclear or coal, but the nuclear power stations we need to build will not be on stream in time. We are behind the game, and we need to act now to catch up and secure Britain’s energy supply, if we are to keep the economy running and the lights on.
Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab)
I did not intend to speak in the debate, because I did not think I would be here, but another meeting was cancelled. I have nothing much in the way of technical details to add to the 40-odd minute speech by the hon. Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer), so I will not try.
Many people would assume that I naturally support coal because I am an ex-miner, but there is much more to it than that. I was in the pits for 20 years, although there is not a single pit left in Scotland. We now deal with open-cast mining in Scotland, and there are still one or two pits in England and southern Wales.
If we drive the market through carbon capture, that will give deep mining in the UK long-term security. We do not want to talk about carbon capture and then import all the coal that feeds the power stations. There is therefore an issue about creating employment opportunities in the UK and beginning to develop a strategy for developing our coalfields, which have millions of tonnes of coal. We are fortunate that we have more coal reserves than anywhere else in Europe. That is an important issue, which we must address.
My view is quite specific. Four or five years ago, I changed my opinion about something that had been close to my heart all my life. Until then, I had been anti-nuclear all my life, but I began to realise that this country’s security of supply is far more important than any view that I might or might not have about nuclear energy. When it comes to this country’s energy requirements, everything should be on the table. That is an important issue, which we have to address. This is not a matter of one thing or the other.
I accept the point about wind power and all the problems with it, and I agree with many of the points made by the hon. Gentleman and my hon. Friend the Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer). However, we need a big mixture, although the base load must come from a few sources. We cannot rely on Russia for fuel, and we should not rely on the middle east, because the supplies can be stopped at any time. Every week in Parliament, we debate the middle east, and things there could blow up at any time; our energy supplies could be cut off at any time, which would mean another price spike.
China is the engine house of the world. Although it was going through a difficult time, it is coming back. That means that we will have to compete with it when it starts to make gains in terms of power. When it buys the power, we will have to pay astronomical prices, because it will determine what is pulled in. It is building power stations and opening up collieries because that provides quick and easy access to energy supplies.
If we are not careful, our leading position on carbon capture and development will be quickly lost, and we will be overtaken. America is putting a lot of money into carbon capture development, and China is doing the same. Indeed, it already has a project that is supported by Germany and others. We are at the tail end.
I was part of the previous Government, and I know the Minister is supportive of coal. The issue, however, is the timing as we move forward on carbon capture projects. The contract at Longannet has to be signed by the end of the year, but the project will not take off until some years later. We also need to get the other three projects up and running. If we want to be at the forefront, we must be able to develop our strategy quickly. I make a plea to the Minister to sign the contracts by September and to bring the other three projects online as soon as possible for the sake of everyone in this country.
We can have all the arguments we want about clean coal technology, sulphur content and everything else, but if the lights go out, not a single person out there will thank us; indeed, my constituents will drum my door down. The bottom line is that we are here to protect and support the people we represent, and we are here to support industry and this country. The only way we will do that is by ensuring that our energy policy utilises everything we have. This is, therefore, an important debate, and I hope that the Minister takes it on board.
Before I sit down, I have one other thing to ask the Minister. When he has his discussions with the Scottish Government, will he ensure that they invest the same amount as us in the Longannet complex? If that fateful day ever happens and Scotland goes independent—I hope it never does—I would not like this country to be putting money into Longannet, when the Scottish Government are not putting a penny in. I would therefore like to hear what the Minister has to say about the Scottish Government putting money into that important project.
Mr George Howarth (in the Chair)
Order. Before I call the hon. Lady, I should point out that I intend to call the first of the Front-Bench spokespeople at 3.30 pm, and I ask the hon. Lady to bear that in mind.
Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con)
I will be brief, Mr Howarth. First, I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) on introducing this extremely important debate. A compelling case for coal has been made by hon. Members on both sides of the Chamber, and the debate is all the better for that.
I fully endorse my hon. Friend’s comment that energy security is hugely important and that coal must play a major role in it. That said, I want to make a few points about the other opportunities for coal-fired power stations through reference to the Tilbury power station in my constituency.
Tilbury has been running for 50 years on its current site. Until March this year, it was a coal-fired power station, but thanks to investment by RWE npower, it is now becoming the world’s largest biomass-fired power station. That gives the opportunity of a new lease of life for some of our older coal-fired power stations, which will have to be decommissioned because of the EU directives. I therefore beg the indulgence of hon. Members today, while I give the story of Tilbury.
At its peak, Tilbury employed 750 people. Today it employs 250, in highly skilled jobs. It was facing closure in 2014, which would have left a big hole in the economy of Tilbury, which is quite a small town. The power station generates more than 1,000 MW—enough to power 1 million homes. It has never breached its environmental licence, in 50 years of operation. Looking at the debate from the point of view of climate change and environmentalism, it is worth bearing that in mind, particularly as the general manager tells me that when sulphur emissions in the locality have been measured at dangerous levels it is not because of the power station but, generally, when there is traffic congestion on the A13 and the M25. That raises the question whether we are looking at the right things, in our rush away from coal.
RWE npower, which runs the station, originally intended to construct a new cleaner coal power station at Tilbury and its plans were far advanced, but it had to reconsider the decision in November 2009. That was because of the cost, in the economic climate at the time, but also—and this reinforces the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood—because of the unclear regulatory status of investment in cleaner coal. It is important to lay the foundations to establish a clear regulatory picture so that companies are prepared to make the investment. Considerable amounts of money are involved.
Having decided not to go ahead with that plan, the company was still wedded to the site at Tilbury—it is a very responsible company and wanted to maintain the relationship. It decided to investigate the burning of wood pellets instead of coal. There was a lot of scratching of heads, but the management decided to have courage and invest money in trying it out. It was a great success.
In March this year the power station burned coal for the final time. I lament that, but what is happening now is very exciting. The company is converting the existing station to burn wood pellets for the remainder of the hours that will take it to 2014; it also intends to invest in creating a new biomass generator beside it. The new arrangement is not quite as efficient at generation as coal. In comparison to the previous figure of 1,000 MW, the wood pellet scheme reaches 750 MW, but it is still an efficient system and it will contribute massively to the national grid—much more than the wind turbines that we have been hearing about, in relation to investment.
The power station will begin generating and contributing to the grid from December. I encourage the Minister to visit the plant. It is exciting and groundbreaking, and gives an opportunity of a new lease of life to some coal-fired power stations. RWE npower deserves to be congratulated on having the courage to make the investment and see whether it would work. It has proved the process, which means that other power stations will find it much less risky.
I endorse the comments made by hon. Members on both sides of the House about coal, which must play a role in this country’s future energy supplies. I reiterate that we should do everything we can to encourage investment in the carbon capture technologies that my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood so lucidly articulated.
Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak, Mr Howarth, and am aware of the time; I did not intend to speak. I congratulate the hon. Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) on bringing this important matter before the House.
I have two or three things to say. The policy of the Government—this was true of the previous Government as well—is based on two illusions. One is that what this country does, both in relation to carbon dioxide, and industrially, will affect anyone else in the world. It will not, and the hon. Member for Sherwood developed that argument with his statistics, and illustrated it effectively.
The second illusion is that there is a shortage of fossil fuels in the world. If we read what environmentalists say and look at what is happening, we can see that the real problem will be a huge surplus of fossil fuels in the world in the next 300 or 400 years, not just because of the figures on coal and oil, but because of the new source of shale gas that is being developed, which has already dropped the price of fuel in north America by up to 50%.
That is the background against which this country must consider energy policy. There must be a hierarchy of priorities in thinking about energy policy, and security of energy supply must be at the top. At the moment we are staring at the prospect of a huge problem in three or four years’ time. The Minister shakes his head, and he may or may not be in his post in three or four years’ time, but European obligations at the moment put an absolute limit on the amount of coal that can be burnt in our power stations. If we get another cold winter and they burn twice as much coal as they intended, those power stations will have to be switched off. There will be a gap before we can build new nuclear power stations. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Midlothian (Mr Hamilton), I spent most of my life opposed to nuclear power stations, but in the world we now live in, the facts, and my opinions, have changed.
We must put the facts together. It will take shale gas some time to come on. Because of the dominance of Russia in the gas market, that is insecure. We know what is happening in the Arab world at the moment and we could be in for a real problem. Rather than putting vast subsidy into wind farms, which are likely to destabilise the national grid as they are put in, and to industrialise the countryside—not just because of the wind farms themselves, but because of the power lines, which will have to be taken at huge cost from the wind farms to the grid—we should be bringing the nuclear power programme forward and considering how to develop shale gas in this country. We have some of our own deposits in the north-west. We should also be thinking about how to develop the coal industry.
Unfortunately, because much energy policy is based on illusions, the Government are not focused on the world and the energy market as they are now. They are focused on what the Labour Government saw as priorities 10 to 15 years ago. The Government need to look objectively at the world and think about how to deal with the energy gap that will exist in four, five or six years’ time, and how to get the best value for money out of the investment we make in energy.
Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Mr Howarth. I congratulate the hon. Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) on securing the debate and speaking eloquently on behalf of his local colliery.
Many hon. Members have spoken today of serious concerns about capacity and a future energy gap in the UK. My hon. Friends the Members for Midlothian (Mr Hamilton) and for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer) spoke about the urgent need to deal with the issue, and several hon. Members have spoken about carbon capture and storage, which I shall mention later. I want to focus my remarks on how coal-fired power stations fit into Britain’s transition to a low-carbon future, and the integral role that clean coal has to play as we reconcile the competing demands of reducing the country’s greenhouse gas emissions and ensuring that enough energy is generated. I want also to highlight some of the challenges that we face.
It is clear that a low-carbon future will not be realised without some contribution from fossil fuels. The urgent challenge that we must overcome is how to ensure through the use of technological innovation that the fossil fuels that we use are cleaner. The UK must be a world leader in investment, research and development, infrastructure and planning across our energy portfolio; but the window of opportunity is closing. We have drifted from 2010 to 2011, still awaiting crucial decisions: from the re-banding of ROCs, to grid investment, to the detailed sign-off on the first CCS project.
At the UK coal conference in February the Minister said that detailed sign-off for CCS1 would be confirmed by July, but when the Energy Bill was in Committee he referred instead to the summer. I would be grateful if he clarified when we will have detailed sign-off of that crucial first CCS project.
At the risk of stating the obvious, it is worth explaining why we are where we are. A quarter of the UK’s energy generating capacity will close by 2018, and as much as 30% will need to be replaced by 2020. Without prompt action, we face an electricity generation gap in the next 10 to 15 years as our nuclear and coal-powered stations are retired. World energy demand is rising and highly politicised. As North sea reserves decline, we are increasingly reliant on imported oil and gas, and UK electricity demand is forecast to double over the next 40 years. Adapting to that increase in demand will require a rapid decarbonisation of our electricity supply and a diversification of the energy sector, moving us from a reliance on fossil fuels and unabated combustion, to an increased use of low-carbon and decentralised energy.
We need a new energy mix, combining renewables, new nuclear and clean coal, but to achieve that mix and meet our climate change targets we will be required to urgently develop carbon capture and storage technology alongside renewables. We will need to create sufficient capacity to meet electricity generation needs at all times, and we will need to put the necessary supply chains in place. We will require the development of smart grid and electricity networks to meet the needs of a reconfigured, smart and diverse electricity infrastructure and, of course, investment in coal and gas infrastructure. All that does not come cheap. Depending on what we read, it could cost between £200 billion and £450 billion to achieve. I have only touched upon the future of coal in the UK energy mix, but it has a strong future.
In 2009, coal-fired power stations produced approximately 28% of the UK’s electricity supplies, using 40 million tonnes of coal in total. Last November, the Minister said that the UK
“will rely on gas and coal for years to come”,
and he is right. Coal is the most abundant worldwide energy resource, yet, unabated, it is also the most polluting. Without finding a way to reduce its harmful effects, we will not be able to tackle climate change.
The question we therefore face is: how do we ensure that the lights do not go out while at the same time meeting the need for greenhouse gas reductions of at least 80% by 2050? In government, Labour committed to funding the first commercial-scale CCS demonstration plant, so we welcomed the coalition’s decision to continue it. As I mentioned earlier, however, we are still waiting for the detailed sign-off of that project.
In addition, many questions remain unanswered in relation to how the crucial second, third and fourth projects will be funded. The Government have committed to funding them from general taxation, but can the Minister give us more detail about where the money will come from? When does he expect the Treasury to release the funds to pay for the project?
It is not just the direct funding for CCS that is required. We need to build the right infrastructure, conduct further research and development into CCS projects, and develop innovative financial mechanisms to devise solutions to the financial challenges facing CCS. We are encouraged that the current CCS demonstration already includes support for nascent infrastructure that will be needed to support the deployment of CCS, but more needs to be done to develop the infrastructure of pipelines and encourage clusters of those facilities in certain areas beyond the demonstration phase.
What work has the office of carbon capture and storage at the Department of Energy and Climate Change done to ensure that those coal-fired power stations that may come forward are able to share infrastructure, such as pipelines and capture plants, with industry, to reduce the overall cost of CCS and to make those plants more economically viable? How will the electricity market reform proposals ensure that a viable supply chain can develop to deliver CCS retrofits to a time that is compatible with our decarbonisation trajectory, as set out by the Committee on Climate Change?
If CCS is to be an integral part of our future energy security and carbon reduction—although we have to prove the technology on a commercial scale first—and if we wish to be at the forefront of the technology, so that we capture the benefits for the domestic and export markets in the future, from China, to India, to Brazil, to the US, we must provide the means. In fact, we have a duty to develop this technology, alongside our European neighbours, because with rising global use of electricity generated by coal, the downsides of delay are significant.
Any delay in the roll-out of CCS will mean higher atmospheric concentrations of CO2, which in turn will mean that subsequent attempts to limit temperature rises to less than 2°C will be harder to achieve. Some calculations suggest that for every year that widespread global deployment of CCS is delayed after 2020, the long-term atmospheric stabilisation level of CO2 increases by one part per million. Therefore, if we delay by more than a decade, the stabilisation of atmospheric concentrations of CO2 at lower levels becomes near impossible. According to the International Energy Agency, without CCS and if we were to rely on other technologies alone, the costs of tackling global CO2 emissions will rise by more than 70% each year. In simple monetary terms, it is a cost of $1.3 trillion annually by 2050.
During the deliberations of the Energy Bill Committee, the Minister referred to emissions performance standards, but I hope that he will provide more detail today. What will the introduction of EPS mean for the future of coal-fired power stations, and what representations has he received on the issue from industry? Will next month’s electricity White Paper identify the level at which the EPS will be set? What effect does he envisage the EPS having on the British coal industry? As the EPS applies only to new-build coal-fired power stations, is it the Minister’s intention that the carbon floor price will be the mechanism to incentivise a reduction in CO2 emissions from plants?
Despite concerns from those representing coal-fired power stations, particularly about the burden of an extra layer of legislation and the fact that it will apply to new-build stations, the right EPS, for example, could help drive investment in carbon capture and storage, but only if it is set at an intelligent level. In written evidence to the Energy and Climate Change Committee in January, energy solutions company Alstom said:
“An EPS at a technology-neutral level from, say, 2020, could provide support to the deployment of CCS, increasing the diversity and security of supply by enabling continued, but decarbonised, use of coal.”
As such—and while recognising the positive intention of the EPS to ensure that no new coal-fired power station should be built in the UK without CCS, and the danger, highlighted by Alstom, of the wrong EPS level resulting in no new coal builds—this makes it even more critical that the Government drive on with the four CCS projects, pre and post-combustion, with urgency.
Planning is another big and obvious problem for coal and other new generation capacity. Undoubtedly, with the closure of many coal-fired power stations over the next decade, many planning applications will be made for new coal and gas-fired power stations, alongside applications for new nuclear build, onshore and offshore wind, biomass plants, and so on. What will happen, therefore, now that the Infrastructure Planning Commission is being scrapped? Will there be adequate resources and expertise in the Planning Inspectorate to avoid it being overwhelmed by the resulting workload, or will it simply become a rebranded version of the IPC?
Before I finish, I wish to raise a few issues that I hope the Minister will address in his wind-up. What discussions has he had with the coal industry about the carbon floor price mechanism and capacity payments? What impact does he expect those mechanisms to have on the future of coal-fired power stations?
The European Union’s emissions trading scheme is a cap and trade system. If less CO2 is produced in the UK, is the Minister concerned that, as fewer CO2 allowances are used, the introduction of a carbon floor price will simply result in the migration of the carbon to elsewhere in Europe? That point was raised by the hon. Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) during an earlier intervention.
Will the proposed single tax rate under the carbon price mechanism disadvantage UK-mined coal against imported coal? There is concern that it will have a detrimental impact on UK coal producers, potentially leading to the closure of more pits, particularly deep mines, and resultant job losses.
Co-firing biomass with coal is a recognised renewable technology and receives renewables obligation support. The hon. Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) has made a powerful case in support of her local plant. However, concerns have been expressed about whether the technology receives sufficient funding. Can the Minister update us on the banding review of renewables obligation certificates? What is his intention in relation to co-firing biomass with coal?
In conclusion, coal is important to the UK’s energy future—as clean coal—to provide the bridge over our energy gap and to a low-carbon future. However, we face significant challenges and must move quickly to develop the required technology to overcome them, if we are to tackle the dangerous threat posed by climate change. I would be grateful if the Minister addresses in his closing remarks the issues I have raised.
Thank you, Mr Howarth, for your stewardship this afternoon. I also thank the hon. Member for Sherwood for securing the debate and all the Members whose eloquent contributions have ensured that we have had an informed discussion.
The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Charles Hendry)
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Howarth. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) on securing the debate and on the manner in which he introduced it. If there were any doubt about it, he has proved today that he is a very fine heir to the seat of Sherwood. The bipartisanship, expertise and understanding that he has shown on the coal industry and wider energy issues are certainly traits that Paddy Tipping and Andy Stewart had. I very much welcome the debate that he has instigated. It would also perhaps be appropriate to put on the record that the hon. Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) would normally reply to such a debate for the Opposition. He is understandably not here today because of family circumstances and our thoughts and prayers are with him and his family at a very difficult time.
As I say, we have had an important and useful debate. There should be no doubt that we recognise that coal has been and will continue to be an integral part of our energy infrastructure. As my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood reminded us, coal makes up on average 35% of our electricity generation, but on a cold winter’s day that figure could readily be 50%. It is therefore vital to our energy security. As we have heard during the debate, coal is also the most carbon intensive form of electricity generation, producing around twice as much CO2 per unit of output compared with a gas-fired power station, together with other environmental pollutants. He put the issue in an international context and outlined the role that coal is likely to play internationally over many years to come.
The imperative of tackling climate change means that we will need to decarbonise our electricity system. In the future, our energy supply will have to be diverse, adaptable and clean. The technologies that can help to deliver that are: nuclear, which should be built without public subsidy; renewable, including biomass, to which I shall return; and fossil fuels with the use of carbon capture and storage. I absolutely agree with the hon. Member for Midlothian (Mr Hamilton) that this should not be a debate about one technology versus another. We need to secure a tremendous amount of investment in our energy infrastructure, and we should be encouraging that to come from a wide balance of resources. I hope that we can agree that our energy security is enhanced by the breadth of that investment portfolio.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood mentioned, there is certainly a case for having back-up at times when the wind is not blowing, but that would not necessarily have to be coal; it could be gas. At the moment, the investment case would be much stronger for a new gas power plant than for coal with CCS because of the relative costs. That back-up supply could also be provided through interconnectors. For example, an interconnector to Norway could provide a huge amount of potential clean electricity and there could also be additional interconnectors to France or Iceland. They could be part of that process. During this decade, other storage technologies have been developed, such as battery, the use of hydrogen, compressed air or heating hot water. Those are all ways in which one can enhance the reliability of the renewables sector. Nevertheless, we recognise—and the structure we are looking to put in place recognises—that there will also need to be back-up power plant available.
We should also recognise the continuing role for gas in the mix, which has often been missed out in many of these debates. We have increased the expectation of the likely role that gas will play, which picks up the point made by the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton (Graham Stringer). The world outlook on gas has changed beyond recognition in the past few years and it is right that energy policy should evolve to take account of that reality. When he noted that I was shaking my head, I was not disagreeing with him about the fact that there is an energy crunch, but about the time scale. My expectation is that the problem will not arise in four or five years, but towards the end of the decade.
A lot of new investment is coming through in gas plant. I opened a new Staythorpe 2 GW plant recently in the east midlands and there is also a new 2 GW plant coming onstream shortly in Pembrokeshire. A lot of new investment is coming through in gas; indeed, of the 20-plus GW of consented plant, 60% is gas. A great deal of new plant is coming through, but when we consider that we will lose a third of our coal plant by 2016—it may be more by the end of the decade—and much of our nuclear plant during this decade, there is a real urgency to secure new investment. During this decade, we are talking about an investment figure in excess of £100 billion in terms of electricity generation and the associated infrastructure.
The hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) said that we had been drifting in terms of some targets, but I believe it is hard to see that drift. She talks about drifting on the CCS time scale, but in fact, we will secure that first project much quicker than was anticipated under the previous Administration. She talked about us drifting on the renewable obligation review; in fact, we have brought that forward by a full year from the time scale we inherited precisely to give clarity to investors. Where there was ambition before, we have decided to match that with a delivery programme, and put in place a road map for the development of carbon capture and storage, a dedicated Office of Carbon Capture and Storage and a developers forum to identify the barriers to investment, so that we can directly focus on those. I hope that we are putting in place a clear programme whereby we are saying, “We understand what the challenges are. How do we make dealing with those a reality?”
As I said, coal generation remains an important part of our energy mix. UK coal production to date is much stronger this year than last, with surface mine output up 400,000 tonnes and deep mine output up by almost a million tonnes. Consequently, this year, there has been a significant drop in the volume of imports, which I think we would all be pleased about. That is partly a result of destocking and partly because of a steady output from Daw Mill colliery—I was pleased that my hon. Friend the Member for Nuneaton (Mr Jones) was here to pay tribute to that. We very much welcome the development plans that UK Coal has announced for Thorseby and the extension of its life that that might bring about.
Total production in 2010 was up on 2009 at a little over 18 million tonnes, and total coal use was also up. The net effect of contributions from indigenous production and the use of stocked coal was to reduce UK coal imports from 38 million tonnes to 26.5 million tonnes, which is a significant fall of 30%. The generating sector continues to be the main market for coal from all sources, particularly from indigenous production. Some 80% of the coal we consume is used in electricity generation. I want hon. Members from all parties to be in no doubt whatsoever that I, and the Government, believe that there is an important continuing role for coal, including indigenous coal, in the energy mix. We need to put in place the right structure to secure the investment that will bring that forward. Indeed, we also need the right approach to carbon capture and storage.
We know that a third of our coal plant is closing as a result of the large combustion plant directive and that the industrial emissions directive will result in the closure of additional plant. If we reduce the sulphur oxide and nitrogen oxide emissions, it will improve air quality and bring environmental benefits.
I question my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood when he calls flue gas desulphurisation a simple technology. I have been to Drax to see it. The technology may, indeed, be simple from a chemical and engineering point of view, but it is vast. It covers many acres and costs many hundreds of millions of pounds. The companies that are looking at such technology have to think carefully about the long-term viability of their plant before they decide to go through that process.
It is clear that the market structure as it currently stands will not enable enough new investment to come through in these low-carbon technologies. That is why, during the past year, we have started the process of electricity market reform. Although the old market structure brought benefits to consumers—we had some of the cheapest electricity and gas prices in Europe, although it did not always feel like that—it did not attract important investment in low-carbon technology.
The key elements that make up the electricity market reform process are, first, long-term contracts for low-carbon generation through a feed-in tariff—a contract for difference—linked with a capacity mechanism. That could be used to provide for the additional plant that is needed on stand-by for those cold days when the wind does not blow, for half-time during a world cup football match or whenever additional capacity is required. Alternatively, we could find better ways of spreading the demand more evenly across the day and using that additional plant more sensibly.
The electricity market reform process will also look at the emissions performance standard, which the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree raised. We will set out our plans on that in the forthcoming White Paper. We have listened carefully to the industry. I agree with her that if we set the EPS at the right level, it could be a strong steer towards new investment. Such an approach will make this country more attractive to investors because they will know what is expected of them over the longer term—for example, what the approach to grandfathering will be and when the reviews might happen. The EPS could be a very important steer and plus point in terms of attracting investment into this country, although I think I heard her indicate that there may be a case at this stage for applying it to gas as well. My anxiety about that is that we are not in the position to turn away investors who want to invest in gas at this time, too. We need to be very clear and careful about how it is introduced. The main drivers for low-carbon technology would be less from the emissions performance standard, and more from the feed-in tariff arrangements that we will introduce. We have also said that we will introduce a carbon floor price in 2013, and increasing gradually to 2020. That gives an early and credible long-term signal to investors that we are serious about encouraging investment in low-carbon technologies.
I understand absolutely the point made by the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree. We have been talking closely with the coal industry and other people who are intensive energy users. We have to balance the urgent need to bring forward investment at twice the rate in this decade than was achieved in the previous decade, to meet the security of supply requirements that this country faces, and to do so in a way that does not create carbon leakage. It would not be sensible to drive away from the United Kingdom industries that can be a critical part of our manufacturing process—carbon emitters and heavy energy users. That would only result in that carbon being produced somewhere else in the world. There would be no net gain to the world. We would lose the jobs and have to import the products at the end of it—there would be no gain. That is why we have committed, over the course of the rest of this year, to put in place a series of measures to protect critical industries that are energy intensive users.
That lays the foundations for a sustainable economy, and will help to bring billions of pounds of investment into the United Kingdom through greater certainty. It will help to safeguard jobs, and will help to bring some of that supply-chain investment to this country, too. That is a right and proper target and objective for the Government. It also means that we have to develop carbon capture and storage.
Carbon capture and storage is not a luxury add-on; it is a fundamental part of our energy approach. We recognise the role that coal and gas will play for many years. That is possible with CCS in a way that could not happen without the development of CCS technology. I am pleased to see the progress in this country at a time when we see CCS deployment slipping back in other countries—Norway has put it back to 2018, and Holland is just delaying it, as are other projects elsewhere in the world. Britain remains one of the leaders on this. The £1 billion is the largest contribution that any Government anywhere in the world has committed to a single project. We have built on the work of the previous Government. Paddy Tipping referred to this as the competition without end, because it was going on for so long. I am glad that, in the course of the next few months, we hope to bring that to an end, although it is a complicated process.
The issues raised by the hon. Lady on shared access for infrastructure all need to be tied up in legal contracts with a variety of partners. We want to bring that to a close as soon as we can, ideally in these summer months.
Mr David Hamilton
Will the Minister encourage us to find out just exactly what contribution the Scottish Government are making? I believe that the Scottish Government are entitled to make a contribution, if that is the first big project of its kind to go. Of course, never shall the day come when we have separation—because I am a Unionist through and through—but surely it is right for this Government to check and make sure that the Scottish Government make a contribution if that day ever did come.
Charles Hendry
Energy remains a retained power. Clearly, the Scottish Government have decision-making powers on planning. That is why they have ruled out such things as new nuclear in Scotland. Nevertheless, energy policy is driven from Whitehall and Westminster. We therefore believe that if this is something that we want to achieve as a national Government, then we should be in the driving seat. If the Scottish Government were to say, “Here is a few million pounds to make it happen”, we would of course be very enthusiastic and grateful to them, although there are not many indications so far that the cheque is in the post. Nevertheless, this will be taken forward by us, as a Government and as the Department of Energy and Climate Change, with a cross-party approach here, and I hope that we can find that agreement in the course of the next few months.
We have a range of technologies, an issue touched on by my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood. This should not just be about post-combustion technology. We need to look at oxy-fuel combustion and pre-combustion technologies, and that is what we want to see coming forward. In the course of the rest of this year we will set out the nature of the competition for the remaining projects—projects 2 to 4—and look at where we would like that to add to our knowledge, the type of technology that we may wish to see coming through with that, and to apply that to gas, too. Again, the world outlook on gas has changed a great deal and we need to take account of that.
I would say to my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood that this is a technology that is still in its infancy. We know that the individual parts of it can work. We know that it can be separated—we have seen that done on a small scale. We know that it can be transported and we know that it can be injected into the sea bed. However, nobody in the world has done that at scale, so we do not yet know what the challenges are of doing that at scale, or what the costs will be. In terms of a time scale, to have four projects running by 2020 is extremely ambitious. We are not going to arrive at a stage where we can move it beyond that. We can absolutely see this technology moving forward in the 2020s. Global ambition suggests perhaps 100 projects by 2020, but 3,000 projects by 2050. This is therefore a process that will inevitably start carefully, but then build up dramatically over time. Everything that we are doing here is determined to ensure that the United Kingdom can be in a real leadership position. What we also see from industry shows that it wants to be part of that process. The NER300 process is a European competition, and almost half of the schemes coming forward for CCS are in the United Kingdom. That shows the appetite among our industry, our universities and our whole supply chain to help lead in this area.
Mr Spencer
I am grateful to the Minister for giving way, as I have taken up more than my quota of time. Given that the new technology will not be on the street until 2020, we will not be in a position to build nuclear power stations to that time scale, and renewable energy will not be large enough to make the shortfall, does he anticipate that the only way we can supply the nation will be by importing that power from our neighbours?
Charles Hendry
No, I do not, although I see it as being an important contributor. The investment in gas that we are seeing shows that the energy company industry is keen to invest in the gas infrastructure, too. We want to see that bid grow out of renewables, but some of those technologies for UK tidal would be in the 2020s. We want to see offshore wind ramping up in the course of this decade. My hon. Friend is absolutely right that nuclear is towards the end of this decade, but as we start to deal with the crunch to which the hon. Member for Blackley and Broughton referred, we need to see additional gas infrastructure, too. We should not rule out interconnecters as part of that process.
Finally, I want to come to the issue of biomass. I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock (Jackie Doyle-Price) for the point she made on that. Electricity from biomass is important to our renewable energy targets, because it brings security of supply benefits. It is dispatchable; in other words, when we need more power, we can generate more power. It can be turned up and it can be turned down. It is one of the few renewable energy sources that is genuinely adaptable in that respect. Large-scale dedicated biomass has the potential to develop significant levels of renewable electricity by 2020. Electricity from dedicated biomass is cheaper than some other large-scale electricity sources. If biomass generation needed to meet the renewable energy target was displaced by more expensive technologies, then inevitably there would be a higher cost to consumers.
It is encouraging to see the interest from Drax, which is developing dedicated biomass. The work at Tilbury is ground-breaking and I join my hon. Friend the Member for Thurrock in paying tribute to RWE npower for the work it is doing to make that happen. Part of the renewables obligation banding review, which, as I said, we have brought forward by a year, will be to determine the appropriate level of support to bring forward either biomass conversion or co-firing, because of the contribution that they can make.
In conclusion, we believe, without any doubt, that coal can play an important role in our electricity-generating mix in the future, but only if its carbon dioxide emissions can be reduced significantly. Electricity market reform will provide the commercial incentives to deliver new low-carbon plant, and our CCS demonstration programme will ensure that there is a cost-competitive solution to the emissions from coal.
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Sherwood. This has been a long-overdue debate, and one that has been extremely constructive. I rejoice at the fact that we can talk about coal, with Members on both sides of the House talking about its opportunities and its importance. I welcome that—it is a big step forward.
Local Rail Services (Bristol)
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con)
This debate is on the future of local Bristol rail, an issue that affects not only my constituency of Bristol North West and the city of Bristol but, because the south-west is so important a part of Britain, our nation as a whole.
Bristol is a significant city facing enormous developments, but the transport infrastructure is poor. Traffic congestion at our key motorway junctions can stifle the city and—not unrelated—bus fares are among the highest in Europe. Indeed, instead of being the gateway to the south-west, Bristol and its region can be described as the tourniquet of the south-west. The city is not standing still, however, with a new deep-water port at the port of Bristol making the docks of greater national and international significance, the possible sale for commercial use of Filton airfield in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti) and the substantial housing development across the northern arc of Bristol. They are all opportunities but, unless the city’s transport infrastructure is capable of supporting them, opportunities could represent burdens. I asked for this debate to emphasise to the Government the importance of supporting long-term transport infrastructure in Bristol, and to point firmly towards rail providing the bedrock of that transportation.
I am delighted that electrification of the Bristol to London line is going ahead—a major boost for the city—and it paves the way for the kind of long-term thinking we need.
Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)
I agree with my hon. Friend that the electrification of the Great Western main line is a fantastic announcement by the coalition Government. Does she agree that that announcement will be enhanced if we could get a commitment from the Government for the Severn Beach line, which is merely a small spur off the main line, to be electrified at the same time?
Charlotte Leslie
My hon. Friend makes an extremely good point, which anticipates what I was going to say. He has done a lot of work lobbying for electrification, and I thank him for that.
The electrification is fantastic and, as I said, long-term thinking is massively important, not that the current smaller schemes for improvement are not welcome. However, unless we also think long term, and think big, those improvements will merely scratch the surface and we will not have the available infrastructure to maximise the effects of the small schemes. I am tempted to draw an analogy with Joseph Bazalgette’s building of the great London sewer system. There is no more time for devising more effective ways of throwing waste out of the window. For transport in Bristol, we need to devise a structural system that completely changes the way we do things.
When we come to the solution, there is good news: the bare bones of that new structure for transport in Bristol already exist. Disused and used freight lines lace the city, in particular in and around my constituency of Bristol North West, in the north of the city, and there are disused stations such as Henbury. The city of Bristol is sitting on a dormant giant of rail travel.
I have campaigned with the Friends of Suburban Bristol Railways and others for a Henbury station and a Henbury loop line. The solution is a no-brainer: the resurrection of our local lines in Bristol, to complete the circle line around the city that we partially enjoy already with the Severn Beach line. A Henbury loop circle line could link with the major stations of Bristol Temple Meads and Bristol Parkway, and could provide a reference point for shuttle transport to major visitor destinations such as the Mall at Cribbs Causeway, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke. He cannot be here today because he is opening the new St Peter’s school in Pilning, but he has rightly said that, given the likely commercial and residential development if the sale of Filton airfield goes ahead, the case for examining existing rail provision and the possibility of resurrecting mothballed stations such as Filton would be really strong. With section 106 moneys coming from the significant housing development in the area, investment for such infrastructure does not seem out of the question.
In Bristol, which in the past I have talked about in terms of “A Tale of Two Cities” because of the deep socio-economic divides running through it, a circle line could open access and economic regeneration to some of the more deprived pockets of our great city, but the economic benefits do not end there. I understand that some Ministers have already travelled on the Severn Beach line, which runs from Temple Meads station up the west side of the city. That suburban line provides a demonstration of the untapped need and desire for local railway infrastructure, and the benefits of pump-priming investment. Since welcome investment by Bristol city council in 2008, which my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol West (Stephen Williams) was active in campaigning for, introducing more frequent services on the Severn Beach line, passenger numbers have rocketed by about 60%, enabling a long-term subsidy decrease as the service becomes economically more successful. Were the circle line circuit complete around the city, that percentage of passenger increase and revenue would likely be an awful lot higher—but what we need is joined-up thinking.
Among parliamentarians, I am delighted there is broad and energetic consensus on the need to work together for the future of rail in our region. Sadly, in the past, however, a certain lack of co-ordination has led to our region missing out on some major transport investment opportunities. That is why I take this opportunity to back strongly the creation of an integrated transport authority for the region. Other areas, such as West Yorkshire and Merseyside, have seen a major resurrection of their local suburban rail services and they have something significant in common: an ITA. So I congratulate our local paper, the Evening Post, and a one-man campaigning army, Dave Wood, on making the case for an ITA so energetically.
An integrated transport vision is as central to the beating heart of our city as a circulation system of veins, arteries and capillaries. With a strong, united voice, bids for projects such as the reopening of the Portishead line and the Henbury loop line can be more effective. If other regions can do it, why cannot we? The strong progress of our local enterprise partnership gives further hope and might provide a great basis for more joined-up thinking. So the big vision is a circulation system of rail around Bristol, linking with cycling and bus routes, and park and ride, to make all the schemes more effective.
More specifically, a major structural concern is to secure quadruple tracking up the Filton bank to Parson Street station, to alleviate the significant bottleneck which limits services locally. Failing to secure that now is a false economy, holding us back for the future, in particular given the existing demonstrable demand for more services. The electrification of the Bristol to London route is incredibly welcome, not only in itself but for the further opportunities it will provide, but any update from the Minister on how far the electrification will extend—for example, to Yate or Weston—would be most appreciated. Such an extension would open enormous opportunities for the suburban lines, with greater flexibility in rolling stock, new routes and diversionary routes for electric trains when needed. A 30-minute service from and to all stations in the former Avon area would be transformational, although it is quite a modest vision when compared with other major cities around the country.
As I said, the reopening of the Henbury loop and Portishead lines are particularly important specific proposals. An issue worked on and frequently raised by the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) is the safeguarding of Plot 6 at Temple Meads for a bus and train interchange. In the more immediate term, I seek clarification from the Minister about additional carriages for crowding relief in Bristol; more rolling stock is badly needed, which is an indication of the appetite for rail travel and the enormous unmet demand. I ask him to consider that seriously.
A Henbury loop line circuit is big thinking indeed, but rail gets to the core of tackling the underlying problems of Bristol’s transport system. Rail infrastructure for Bristol would be an absolute game changer for all the other methods of transport that we need to improve, freeing up the roads for buses and cyclists and transforming the park-and-ride potential. The idea has backing—indeed, the scheme is recommended in Network Rail’s route utilisation strategy—and I ask the Minister to look specifically at backing the scheme with practical financial support. Yes, the thinking is ambitious and long term, but I argue strongly that long-term strategic thinking and infrastructure investment is exactly what is needed if the entire Bristol region is to meet the real, pressing and ever-increasing transport challenges of the future. I called for the debate today because the future comes sooner than we think.
Mr George Howarth (in the Chair)
Order. Before the hon. Gentleman starts his speech, I should point out that I intend to call the Minister at 15 minutes past 4.
Chris Skidmore (Kingswood) (Con)
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) for securing this extremely important debate, and I am pleased to see my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol West (Stephen Williams). It is rare to be able to talk about local issues in Parliament, and this debate is a great opportunity to do so. It is a shame that more hon. Members could not be present, but I want to give a personal apology from my hon. Friend the Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke (Jack Lopresti) who, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West said, is in his constituency. It is a shame that the right hon. Member for Bristol South (Dawn Primarolo) and the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) are not here, because we would then have had a full complement of local MPs to discuss transport issues in our local area.
As the MP for Kingwood, I do not specifically cover Bristol rail matters, but they are vital for my constituents in terms of integration, and I fully support the development of the rail networks: the West of England Partnership and local enterprise partnership have done excellent work in pressing the case, as the Minister knows, for rapid transit links to the northern fringe. My hon. Friend the Member for Filton and Bradley Stoke asked me to read out a statement that he would have made if he had been here:
“The Henbury loop line, presently a freight line used by coal trains from Avonmouth, will become a very important line for the local area with expansion of the Avonmouth Docks. It is also a very important diversionary route; there is a lot of residential and industrial units being constructed in North Bristol so this line needs to be opened up as a passenger line.
To achieve this a new station could be built at Henbury, and the closed North Filton station could be rebuilt with a park and ride site perhaps on land near the now closed airfield.
Filton North station is next to the A38 main road. Airbus, Rolls Royce, GKN Systems, Royal Mail and countless other firms are based in the near vicinity and the re-opening of this station could alleviate some of the rush hour traffic problems that the local area currently experiences.
With the closing of Filton airfield, land which is likely to be redesignated to residential and commercial needs, we must get the local transport infrastructure right to ensure that we can avoid serious traffic problems stifling the local area.”
Although my constituency lies outside Bristol, all those issues affect the greater Bristol area, and as united coalition partners we want to ensure that we regenerate Bristol for the better. I again thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West, and look forward to the Minister’s reply.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) on securing this debate, and my hon. Friends the Members for Bristol West (Stephen Williams) and for Kingswood (Chris Skidmore) on contributing to it. The subject is important and timely.
My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West set out with great clarity the importance of the rail network in Bristol to the local economy, and how it can contribute to helping to address congestion problems in and around the city. She said that Bristol is the gateway to the south-west, and the Government fully recognise that in our planned investment in the inter-city rail network to Bristol. Indeed, it would not be possible to discuss local rail issues—I will return to them later—without referring to the significant developments that are planned for the network over the next five to 10 years, and which will transform Bristol’s links with London and the south-east.
The announcement that the Great Western main line between London, Bristol and Cardiff will be electrified has been warmly welcomed in the west of England, and I am pleased to hear hon. Members’ support for that project today. The line will be equipped with brand new inter-city express trains, and the current proposal is for four trains an hour to run between Bristol and London, two an hour via Bath and Chippenham and two an hour via Bristol Parkway. Those via Bristol Parkway will transform the links between the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West and London, given the proximity of Bristol Parkway station.
Both routes into Bristol will be electrified and, with electrification of the Severn tunnel route through to Cardiff, three of the local routes—Cardiff to Bristol, Bristol Parkway to Bristol, and Bath to Bristol—will be able to accommodate electric trains. There are no plans to electrify the line to Weston-super-Mare or the Severn Beach line. However, because some of the new inter-city trains will be bi-mode trains and able to run on electric or diesel power, some inter-city trains will continue to operate to Weston-super-Mare, as they do today, and will switch seamlessly—at least, I hope so—from electric to diesel power at Bristol Temple Meads.
Another recent announcement is significant for the area. The Secretary of State has announced that the Thameslink route through London will receive new rolling stock from about 2015. That means that, as far as Bristol is concerned, there will be a pool of electric rolling stock available to operate some Bristol area local rail services should the operator of the new Great Western franchise choose to use them. I realise that capacity is an issue. We are currently negotiating with First Great Western for provision of additional diesel carriages, but I cannot confirm at the moment when they will arrive or what the exact number will be. However, the prospect of electric trains will ease the position considerably.
I said that this debate is timely, and there are three reasons. First, detailed planning of the electrification scheme is now under way, and there may be opportunities to add to the scheme better to meet the needs of the local area if funding can be identified locally. Secondly, First Great Western has recently announced that it is taking up the option that the previous Government made available to it under the terms of the franchise of terminating it in 2013 rather than 2016. Therefore, detailed work will have to be carried out on the specification for the new franchise. Local authorities need to be ready to input into the process, and to discuss their ideas with bidders when they emerge in due course. For the avoidance of doubt, we welcome local people’s views of the new franchise arrangements which we are putting in place throughout the country. Thirdly, we are keen to explore the scope for devolving further aspects of rail to local authorities, and a good time to do so is when a franchise is due for renewal and the area is set to benefit from major investment.
The electrification scheme creates major opportunities for the local rail network around Bristol. Electric trains are cleaner, quieter and have better acceleration than diesel trains, so they are ideally suited to providing local rail services in densely used urban areas. The journey-to-work area in Bristol is expanding, as my hon. Friends know only too well, so now is the time for the local authorities to consider how the local rail network can be adapted to maximise the benefits of electrification. That may require some reconfiguration of local services, but the local authorities are well placed to understand passengers’ needs. For example, we are aware that the West of England Partnership is keen to see the local rail service extended from Bristol Parkway to Yate. We would welcome local input into matters such as whether a short extension of electrification from Westerleigh Junction to Yate would offer value for money. Likewise, new stations have been suggested for the Bath route, and now is the time for the partnership to consider such issues.
We are keen that proposals for infrastructure enhancement are robust and based on sound evidence. It is in nobody’s interest to promote unsustainable or undeliverable schemes or schemes that have little chance of securing funding. It is therefore important that work is undertaken to understand the viability of those options. I want to make it clear that the Government are pro-rail. We have a major programme of investment in the rail network. Indeed, it is reasonable to conclude without hyperbole that our rail investment programme is the biggest since the Victorian era.
In the Bristol area, the local authorities work closely together as the West of England Partnership. Although they are free to consider whether there might be benefits in forming an integrated transport authority—my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West referred to that, and some people believe that there would be significant benefits—it is not essential that they do so for the purposes of securing improvements or investment in local rail services. If local people want to consider forming an ITA, we will pay close attention to that. The partnership has a number of plans for rail, and there are no institutional barriers preventing them from achieving them.
We are keen to see the local authority partnership aligned with the local enterprise partnership, and together to play a leading role in determining the future of the local rail network. For example, that structure could deal with the safeguarding of Plot 6 at Bristol Temple Meads. The West of England Partnership already takes an active role in transport, and has established a rail protocol with train operators and Network Rail. I understand that the local enterprise partnership has plans for regeneration around Temple Meads station.
The West of England Partnership has created the concept of a Bristol metro network of regular-frequency local rail services, and has been very supportive of North Somerset council’s efforts to reopen the Portishead line. The next step will be to identify how those enhancements could be delivered and, more importantly, funded. The reopening of that line would require the reopening of passenger services on a freight-only line from Parson Street junction to Portbury junction, and the reinstatement of track from Portbury junction to a new station at Portishead. Our rough estimate is that reopening would cost £35 million to £40 million. Steps are obviously under way to make Network Rail more efficient, and to drive down costs, but that is our present estimate. Such a move would require the provision of new train services, perhaps every half hour during peak times and every hour off-peak. At the moment, that would need an ongoing subsidy, which is an important consideration when working out the economics of any reopening.
Reference was made to the possibility of reopening the line to passenger services between Avonmouth and Filton Abbey Wood. That would create a north Bristol circle line that would run from Temple Meads via Clifton Down to Avonmouth, and back to Temple Meads via a reopened Henbury station. I am sure that such a circle line would be more reliable than the one I use on a regular basis, which runs not far from this Chamber.
Stephen Williams
I share the vision of that north Bristol circle line with my hon. Friend and neighbour the Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie). It would also provide the opportunity for new stations along that route. My hon. Friend mentioned some stations that she would like in her constituency, and I will add Ashley Hill station to that list. It would be on the Filton Bank line and serve about 20,000 residents either side of where the station used to be—the platform is still there. It would also serve Gloucestershire cricket club and Fairfield high school.
Norman Baker
My hon. Friend has long campaigned very strongly on these issues and I welcome his involvement. Objectively, if we are to reopen a line it is a good idea to attract as many passengers as possible, and the provision of extra stations could be a useful way to achieve that. A cost-benefit analysis would be carried out for each station to look at whether reopening it would make sense to the project as a whole. My hon. Friend has given several examples of why he believes that would be the case for the station that he mentioned.
Although the line between Filton Abbey Wood and Bristol is intact, we would need to increase its capacity, and Network Rail is considering how to accommodate the extra trains. There would also be the question of how to serve the branch line from St Andrews road to Severn Beach. In the first instance, the West of England Partnership will determine whether that scheme should be a priority, although to date it has provided no indication that it would seek to explore that proposal, given that the Bristol metro and the Portishead line appear to be higher priorities. Hon. Members from the Bristol area may wish to pursue that point with the West of England Partnership. Bristol city council funds additional services on the Severn Beach line, which has contributed to a significant growth in the usage of the line. Perhaps that model could be employed elsewhere in the area.
Let me take the opportunity to congratulate the community rail partnership. It has done tremendous work in improving stations, promoting the network around Bristol and, importantly, involving local people in its schemes. That has produced a tremendous sense of pride and ownership in the local rail network. My right hon. Friend the Minister of State for Transport recently visited the line and was impressed with the achievements of the community rail partnership. She was keen for me to refer to those achievements in my remarks today.
Conditions already exist for local authorities to take on greater responsibility for local rail services. The Department for Transport will be happy to discuss ways of achieving that with those local authorities, and help as best it can. As I have already mentioned, there may be scope to modify the electrification scheme to take account of local needs and aspirations, and as we have seen, local authorities are already able to finance rail services and schemes using funds available for local transport. We believe it is important that decisions on local priorities are made by local authorities rather than central Government, so there are currently no plans to establish a central fund for local rail schemes. Instead, local authorities should identify which local funding sources are most appropriate for a rail scheme, and decide whether such a scheme should have a higher priority than, for example, a highway or bus scheme.
Although the coalition Government’s current priority must be to reduce the budget deficit, we are making available a significant amount of money—£560 million—through the local sustainable transport fund. That is more money for local transport than was provided over the past four-year period, despite the difficult economic climate that we face. We are also making a contribution to the regional growth fund to enable some schemes to proceed before 2014. All that is in addition to the major local transport schemes budget, and in September the West of England Partnership will make five bids to the Department for schemes linked to the development pool. We will make decisions on those schemes around Christmas. The area has already had one scheme approved for the Greater Bristol bus network, which is nearing completion. The West of England Partnership has made a key component bid and a large project initial proposal to the local sustainable transport fund, and an announcement on the key component bid will be made shortly.
We will soon be consulting on a more devolved approach to major local schemes that will be in place from April 2015. Such an approach will provide the opportunity for groups of local authorities, working with local enterprise partnerships, to consider once again the transport priorities for their area that the fund might help to meet. That is particularly important for the reopening of the Portishead line, which has been frequently mentioned in this debate, through correspondence with the Department, and in other forums.
The aspiration is to reopen that line by 2017, but it is essential to first establish that that is the best way to meet the needs of the area and a priority for investment among other potentially competing claims. The local authority has carried out important work with Network Rail through the governance for railway investment projects process—GRIP. It also, however, needs to establish demand for the scheme and to demonstrate that there is a business case and that ongoing financial support is affordable. Initially, that must be demonstrated locally and not by the Department. We will respond to that local pressure.
To conclude, electrification brings opportunities for improvements to the local rail network around Bristol. There is an important role for local authorities, working together through the West of England Partnership, to carry on the good work and seize the initiative by taking advantage of such schemes. The Department will be happy to provide advice and guidance to hon. Members, councillors and others in the Bristol area, to ensure that people are able to maximise the opportunities in their area. Ultimately, however, it is for local people to lead on such matters, and the Department will have a supportive role.
Computer Games Industry
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Westminster HallRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Howarth, and I thank the House and the Speaker’s Office for giving me the opportunity to raise an issue of great importance to my constituency: the computer games industry.
As hon. Members will be aware, calls for the Government to provide more support to this important industry have been made for some time, and during both the previous Parliament, and this Parliament, I and many of my colleagues have asked the Government to act. The previous Labour Government committed themselves to introducing tax breaks to encourage start-up companies and overseas developers to establish operations in the UK. The election of the coalition Government saw that policy scrapped, despite the support of Liberal Democrat and Conservative Front-Bench spokespeople before the election.
The UK computer games industry is a substantial contributor to investment in the UK. In Scotland alone, £30.2 million is invested in salaries and overheads, £27.5 million is contributed to the Exchequer, and a direct and indirect contribution of £66.8 million is made to UK GDP. In the UK as a whole, those figures rise to a £1 billion contribution to GDP, and £400 million a year that goes to the Treasury.
In Dundee, the arrival of a successful games developer has been a major factor in the revival of the city’s fortunes, following the loss of major manufacturing industries in the 1980s and ’90s. The computer games industry has contributed to help Dundee fast become a destination of choice for investors. Millions of pounds have been invested into the city and much-needed high-quality jobs have been created. Such investment has also provided an opportunity for young graduates, many of whom studied in Dundee, to pursue graduate careers in the city when before they would have left to work elsewhere. That has had a tremendously positive effect on the city.
All that, however, is now at risk. Like many major industries, the computer games industry operates in a globalised economy and faces stiff competition from abroad. In that environment, just as in many others, global competition is squeezing British industry. Like ship building, general manufacturing and steel production before them, UK creative industries are being tempted away by countries that offer ever more enticing business environments. Canada is a particular threat. Last week the Entertainment Software Association of Canada produced a report highlighting the fact that Canada’s computer games industry has significantly benefited by poaching companies from the UK. It estimates that because of tax breaks, the industry will grow by 17% over the next two years. Between 2008 and 2010, the Canadian games industry grew by 33%; over the same period, the UK’s games industry fell by 9%.
We have seen recent evidence of that phenomenon in the UK when a games developer in Warrington closed and staff were offered positions in the company’s Canadian office. There is more bad news for the UK industry. The US state of Pennsylvania announced this week that it is to introduce a 25% tax break for games developers. That makes it the 17th US state to offer such support. Alongside that, the Irish Culture Minister, Jimmy Deenihan, announced at the start of this month that the Irish Government were looking to implement tax breaks to encourage games developers to move to Ireland. That is all the more concerning given what we know of Ireland’s ability to attract high-investment technology companies to its shores—its banks notwithstanding. I am referring to companies such as Microsoft and Apple.
That is why I am calling on the UK Government to reconsider their approach to Government support for the industry. There is a significant risk that our industry will be further outmanoeuvred by countries such as Canada, Ireland and the United States and we will lose the investment that communities such as those in my constituency cannot do without.
Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate, which is important for jobs in Dundee. As he rightly identified, just five weeks before the general election, both coalition partners promised that they would introduce tax breaks for the industry. Has my hon. Friend had any indication as to why that policy has changed?
Jim McGovern
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I can quote from the evidence taken by the Select Committee on Scottish Affairs, which conducted an inquiry into this subject. It was said in that Committee that on 29 March—just five weeks before the general election—the then shadow Minister said that the Conservatives were
“going to support tax breaks for the video games industry…We are fully behind game tax breaks. This is my unequivocal statement. It’s been approved by George Osborne.”
However, in the very first Budget, in June 2010, they scrapped that. I have never heard a reasonable explanation of why that happened. Perhaps this afternoon we will hear one.
Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab)
I, too, congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this very important debate. As I understand it, the Government tell us that the key to recovery is growth and support for small and medium-sized enterprises. Is my hon. Friend saying that we are entering this competitive field with one hand tied behind our backs?
Jim McGovern
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. The Government seem to be saying that differences in corporation tax and research and development tax credits are good enough to support the computer games industry. My view and that of TIGA, the association that represents the computer games industry, is that a one-size-fits-all policy is not good enough and there should be a specific solution for specific industries, such as the computer games industry.
The one policy difference between the UK and our competitors is a scheme of tax incentives for games developers. Canada offers tax breaks of 17.5% to 37.5% on labour expenditure. As I said, Ireland is investigating how best to implement tax breaks, and Pennsylvania is offering a 25% tax break, which is similar to that offered by the other 16 US states that offer such support. It is clear that the UK is being outdone by those tax regimes. That is why I am calling on the UK Government to introduce a tax incentive scheme that rivals those other countries’ schemes.
As the Minister will be aware, the Scottish Affairs Committee investigated the current state and benefits of the computer games industry in Scotland. Its conclusion on tax breaks was clear. It said that there were compelling reasons to introduce tax breaks and that the UK Government should begin a consultation process to see how best to achieve that. That is additional to recent calls by major international developers. Three of the largest—Activision Blizzard, THQ and Ubisoft—have publicly stated that tax breaks in the UK would make them much more likely to invest here. There are many reasons why they do so now.
Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way on that point in this very important debate. Has there been an estimate of the long-term tax revenue that could be generated if the UK’s share of the market was to grow through the use of tax incentives?
Jim McGovern
There has been an estimate. TIGA reckons that tax breaks would help 2,500 new jobs to be created and would maintain and protect 3,000 current jobs.
Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con)
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that we need to think not just about the short-term position, but the long term? Given that this is such a transient product, which can go from border to border, we need to think about how the whole market is developing. Therefore, tax breaks are important in our thinking about how we can maximise revenue going into the future, not just in the short term.
Jim McGovern
I certainly do agree. We do need a long-term strategy. Everyone involved with the computer games industry—it is a big thing in my constituency of Dundee West—agrees that a long-term strategy is required, but in the short term, to prevent companies from going bust or moving to Ireland or Canada, tax breaks would be very important. They would be a big factor in helping companies to survive.
I and many others are deeply disappointed that the present Government have ignored the call for tax breaks and stubbornly remain of the view that that is a policy they choose to disregard. The Government’s one-size-fits-all approach to tax incentives simply is not working. While the UK Government remain outwitted by our international competitors, it is highly likely that inward investment will be lost. As with other major economic sectors previously, the UK will lose out because of a Government who choose to ignore the calls of industry, rather than listen.
I will move on to another way in which the UK Government can support the industry. This is a case not just of tax breaks, although they are fundamental, but of the range of measures that developers feel would support them. The Scottish Affairs Committee stated in its report that the Government must work with industry bodies to best determine how to better publicise the availability of R and D tax credits and to introduce a more targeted R and D scheme to the industry.
I welcome the recent changes to R and D tax credits, but the Government could do much more in that regard. Only some of the recommendations have been met. I call on the Government to extend that programme to make the available tax credits more generous and to work with the industry to discover how best the scheme could be tailored to its needs.
That brings me to the third way in which the Government could make the business environment more attractive to games developers. Start-up developers face serious trouble in securing loans and financing from the banks. I know that that is a wider problem experienced by small and medium-sized enterprises throughout the UK, but I ask the Government to redouble their efforts to ensure that the banks grant the finance required for start-ups to get going.
Research conducted on behalf of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills and the Department for Culture, Media and Sport by Dr Stuart Fraser of Warwick business school and IFF Research in May highlights the worrying extent of the difficulties that creative industries face in securing financing. They are much more likely than other industries to be turned down by the banks. That was highlighted in the Scottish Affairs Committee report on this subject. According to research by the trade body TIGA, the majority of 104 surveyed games companies reported either that there was no difference in their ability to borrow from their bank or that the situation had got worse in the course of last year.
The Government have committed themselves to improving the access to finance from banks from the all-time low that we experienced due to the banking crash. Clearly that has yet to produce any results for the computer games industry. As with many creative industries, there is risk associated with games developers, as the sad demise of Realtime Worlds in my constituency illustrates. A product that fails to sell can have a dramatic impact on a company. However, without some risk being taken, industry and the economy simply will not grow. I ask the Government and the banks to work in partnership with the industry to see investment increased and jobs created.
Lindsay Roy
Is it not ironic that the Government have invested heavily in Abertay university to enhance the skills profile? If these jobs are not available, we will see a drain from that investment overseas.
Jim McGovern
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. He is absolutely correct. When we took evidence at Abertay university, we were told that, every day, students there who are studying the computer games industry and will graduate in that subject are receiving phone calls from France, Ireland and Canada saying that they will be offered a job there. Most of the students who study computer games do not end up employed by a company in the UK; they end up starting their own business. It is extremely galling for people in Dundee, who want to locate in Dundee, to find that it is much easier to move abroad than to stay in the UK, so I thank my hon. Friend for that point.
On that subject, if we stifle young companies with a lack of finance, we cannot hope to see economic growth. We must return to rewarding those who take appropriate, but not reckless, risk in starting and running businesses. There are other proposals that the UK Government could implement to support UK games developers. TIGA has called for the creation of a creative content fund. That would allow for funding on a pound-for-pound basis up to £100,000 for companies that produce highly creative content. The UK Government must acknowledge that computer games developers and other creative industries have specific requirements that are not being addressed. The creation of a creative content fund would target funding on those industries, and show that their needs were catered for. It would encourage investment, growth and job creation. I ask the Minister to draw up plans to consult on introducing these measures, and to work with the industry and the Treasury to put in place a policy that encourages and rewards creative investment.
As for the value of higher education and of a skilled work force for the industry, I am well aware that higher education spending is a devolved matter, but the Government could do a number of things. A major requirement for developers is a highly skilled and trained work force. The industry is populated largely by graduates and, as I mentioned earlier, securing jobs for Dundee graduates has had a great effect on the city.
I welcome the Government’s decision earlier this year to award funding to Abertay university. However, it remains a small sum compared with the support that could be offered. The Scottish Affairs Committee’s report highlighted the real concern that there are too few mathematics and computer science graduates to sustain the industry. Abertay has led the way on this, and I urge the Government to work with universities and industry to ensure that we have the work force and skills base that the economy needs. Abertay has acted as an experiment on what can be done in partnership between higher education institutions and the private sector. I ask the Government to work with the Scottish Executive to develop working relationships of that sort, and to ensure that public spending cuts do not harm access to higher education or the quality of teaching and research.
The theme that runs through my speech today is a call for a more coherent and aggressive growth strategy from the Government. I well understand Ministers arguing that we need a simplified tax incentive structure. I am sure that we would all agree that unnecessary complication would be a hindrance to economic growth. However, we sometimes need an element of necessary complication. The temptation to find simple solutions to complicated problems can be far too alluring; instead, we should accept that there is a case to be made for having specific solutions to specific problems. Individual industries require tailored support to meet their needs. Whether it is tax breaks for the UK film industry or tax breaks for games developers, the Government must introduce policies that actually work for the many important industries that we have in the UK.
Mike Weatherley
The hon. Gentleman is generous in giving way. Does he agree that it is important not only that the Government are behind the financial incentives but that there is copyright protection for those who produce the product?
Jim McGovern
I certainly would not disagree. As I said earlier, the Government could do much more. The hon. Gentleman makes a valid and important point.
I sincerely fear that we have an overly simplistic one-size-fits-all solution that does not address the differing needs of UK businesses. Economic growth is stagnating, inward investment has fallen sharply since the crash and remains low, and computer games developers say loudly that the Government are paying no attention to the problems that they face. That is why I ask the Government to think again about their broad-brush and overly simplistic attitude to supporting business. They must get stuck in and get their sleeves rolled up, working out appropriate solutions for UK business and taking on the job of creating economic growth. Their do-nothing strategy is simply not working.
The best place for The Government to start—I hope that I do not flatter myself—is to commence work on the proposals that I have outlined today to support the UK computer games industry. Constituencies such as mine of Dundee West, and constituencies throughout Scotland and the UK, suffered when the last Conservative Government failed to stand up for UK business, allowing us to be outwitted by foreign competitors. I strongly ask this Government not to make the same mistake.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport (John Penrose)
It is a pleasure, Mr Howarth, to see you in the Chair and looking after us this afternoon. I thank the hon. Member for Dundee West (Jim McGovern) for initiating the debate. As he says, the computer games industry is an important part of our national economy. It is responsible for many high-quality and high-skilled jobs, and it is also part of the knowledge economy. The debate is therefore most timely, and I congratulate him on securing it.
I start with a brief apology, Mr Howarth. You may have noticed that I am not the Minister who was supposed to have answered this debate. The reason is that the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey), is currently at an OECD conference in Paris—some people have all the luck, you may say—on the subject of broadband and the internet. I am therefore standing in for him. I toyed with the possibility of getting my ministerial colleague to represent himself by Skype, possibly by superfast broadband, as he is also Minister with responsibility for the digital economy, but I thought that might be a step too far even for the newly modernised House of Commons. I therefore stand in his stead.
I am not sure that the hon. Member for Dundee West and I will agree on all points of industrial strategy—I suspect not—but I shall respond to some of the points that he made. In particular, I respectfully take issue with his comment that the Government are pursuing a “do nothing” strategy. We are doing a great deal, although not necessarily precisely what he suggests. I shall say what we are doing, and then we can debate whether there is room for additional activity.
I am sure that we agree that the economic and cultural value of the UK video games industry is high. The long-term potential of the global market is exciting. PricewaterhouseCoopers suggests that the global market for video games will grow from $56 billion in 2010 to $82 billion in 2015; that is an 8.2% compound annual rate of growth. The hon. Gentleman and I have also said that games companies are typically knowledge-intensive and high value, and offer high-quality jobs. They fit well with our aim to rebalance the economy, both in terms of sectoral ability and geographical coverage, and to move away from the historic over-reliance on things such as the financial services industry and the south-east.
Lindsay Roy
I understand that different approaches are taken for the film industry and the video games industry, but they both have huge opportunities for creative development. Why do we have that differential?
John Penrose
I think that the hon. Gentleman is referring to the fact that a tax break is already in place for the film industry, but we do not have quite the same system for the video games industry. There is a piece of history here, which I offer as an explanation.
The film industry has an existing state aid exemption; it is an acknowledged piece of state aid that is registered with EU authorities and anyone else who needs to know. We are registering it under the next iteration of those rules, which is coming up. The reason is that it seemed at the time—we continue to agree—that it was an important piece of cultural ambassadorship as much as a business opportunity. We cannot necessarily say that for “Grand Theft Auto”, important though it may be for the UK industry and for jobs. The film industry does both jobs. It fulfils the role of cultural ambassador; the video games industry is economically important. That is the historic explanation. The shortage of money, which I intend to deal with in my response to the hon. Member for Dundee West, is why we are where we are; there is no money to extend such provision, even if we could.
Jim McGovern
I thank the Minister for giving way. The figures given to the Scottish Affairs Committee during its inquiry suggest that the tax breaks received by the film industry cost in the region of £110 million a year. The previous Government committed themselves to tax breaks for the computer games industry worth £55 million a year. However, the computer games industry generates more for our GDP than the film industry. Further to that, the Committee said that calling them video or computer games was rather misleading, as the industry is also involved in medical research and architectural science. It is not just people playing “Grand Theft Auto” or “APB”.
John Penrose
The hon. Gentleman is quite right to say that there is a broader aspect to the matter. I was using “Grand Theft Auto” as a quick example rather than a widely based covering comment.
As for the numbers cited by the hon. Gentleman, I say this. Businessmen should always face many more ideas that would produce a positive return on their investment than they can afford. That is a fact of life in any industry, and certainly in the creative industries. There might be 100 options that could increase the bottom line, but they will not be able to afford to use them; they will not have the cash, the people or resources in general. That is the case with the Government. We inherited a terrible fiscal position, and the country’s balance sheet was in a very bad state. There are all sorts of things that might create a positive return, but we physically do not have the cash for them.
One of the major points of difference between the hon. Gentleman and me in our approach to macro-economics in general and to the industry—and also on a micro-economic basis—is that I am unsure where we would find the money to do some of the things that he suggests, such as tax breaks here and there. I respectfully suggest that he will need his own Treasury Front-Bench team to sign up to what he suggests. I suspect that those Front Benchers will be leery of doing so, because they would then have to explain which bits of other budgets, such as health or education, they would cut in order to release money for this, which taxes they would raise to pay for the additional tax breaks, or how they would persuade the financial markets, on the day that Greece is voting for its austerity package, that we should be borrowing more money for this, that or the other. This is an essential piece of macro-economic prudence, and I suspect it is a fundamental difference of approach between us. I understand where he is coming from, but I am trying to explain where we are.
Justin Tomlinson
I understand 100% the point the Minister makes about the constraints in the financial sector. However, he also referred to the fact that this is a growing market and there is an opportunity. Can we at least have an assurance that the Government are continuing to consider ways to support the industry and that, as and when opportunities arise, they will be considered?
John Penrose
I can absolutely make that assurance. I would like to go back to some of the things that we are already doing, which I hope will bring a significant benefit to this industry and others.
Jim McGovern
The Minister said that I should ask my Front-Bench colleagues to sign up to this. Obviously, they have: they made a commitment prior to the general election that they would give tax breaks to the computer games industry. The Minister’s party also supported that, as did the Liberal Democrats and the Scottish National party. I am not looking for a U-turn; I am looking to the Government to honour their commitment. The Minister makes the point about the Labour legacy, which I think everybody is getting a bit scunnered listening to. If that is the case, why can Ireland offer tax breaks but the UK cannot? Ireland is held up as an example of a country that is economically worse off than the UK.
John Penrose
That brings me neatly to one of the other points made by the hon. Gentleman. He accused us of having an over-simplistic, one-size-fits-all policy. The difference between here and Ireland is that, over 13 years under the previous Government, the UK developed one of the most complicated, long, difficult, baroque and over-ornamented systems of business taxation in the developed world. We start with an incredibly complex taxation system, so moving gently towards a slightly simpler approach does not mean we are becoming over-simplistic or deciding that one size fits all. We would have to go a long way to get anywhere near the scenario the hon. Gentleman describes. Ireland is not starting from that over-complicated position. It has all sorts of other constraints. It has major macro-economic and public finance problems, as he rightly says, but it is not starting from one of the most complicated and baroque business tax systems in the world, as we are.
We need to move to a simpler system. It is difficult to argue that decisions on whether to invest in this or that part of a business will be driven effectively and productively by a system that requires encyclopaedic PhD-level knowledge and understanding of business taxation. What actually happens in business—and having been in business, I can vouch for it—is that one makes the right decision on the basis of what customers want and what is affordable and one tries to position the business in that way. One then turns to the bloke who runs the finance department and says, “Can you retro-fit any of this into some kind of useful tax break that the Government have already introduced?” That does not drive decision making, unless it is a very large and particular kind of system, of which there are few.
Therefore, that kind of over-complicated tax system is fundamentally less effective than it should be in driving investment decisions. That is why one needs to move to a simplistic system with straightforward incentives: if someone invests and does the right thing for customers, they will earn more money, it will drop through to the bottom line and investors will do well. That is the thinking behind it.
That said, as I mentioned to my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson), we are trying to do a series of things that will help the industry and others. I will lay out some of those, as the hon. Member for Dundee West challenged me to do so. I want to ensure I respond, to show that we are not a “do nothing” Government. However, he is right to say that the UK faces strong competition for video games investment from overseas, particularly from Canada, which offers targeted tax incentives for games producers. I am aware, of course, of the trade association TIGA’s campaign for the introduction of a specific tax relief to support video games production in the UK. Its job is to campaign for such things; it would not be doing its job well if it did not make that argument. In someone else’s famous phrase, “They would say that, wouldn’t they?”
The Chancellor of the Exchequer, as I have mentioned before, keeps all decisions on tax policy under review. However, we believe that in general providing a low corporate tax rate with fewer reliefs and allowances, as I have explained, will provide the best incentive for business development and promoting economic growth. Many games companies in the UK will benefit from the reforms announced in Budget 2010 and Budget 2011. To remind hon. Members, the UK’s main rate of corporation tax will fall to 23% by 2014. That means we will have the lowest rate in the G7 and the fifth lowest in the G20, ensuring the UK remains a competitive place to do business.
The hon. Member for Dundee West said that businesses are leaving. It is worth pointing out that many major global games companies choose to locate their European headquarters in the UK, and continue to do so. For example, we have Sony Computer Entertainment, Sega, Disney Interactive and Activision all here in the UK.
The Government have also made major reforms to the R and D tax credit. From 1 April 2011 the rate of tax relief for small and medium-sized enterprises increased from 175% to 200% of qualifying tax relief. From 1 April 2012 that will rise further to 225%, subject to state aid approval. I know that many in the games sector have warmly welcomed those reforms as a boost to innovative video games businesses in the UK.
The Government also announced changes to the schemes that help to incentivise equity investment in small, high-growth companies. The hon. Gentleman mentioned the importance of those to this industry, and many others. Those schemes are the enterprise investment scheme and venture capital trusts. We welcome the news that consultants Olswang plan to work with others on an independent analysis considering how measures such as EIS and VCTs can be exploited by games developers and the investment community to boost levels of investment in the sector.
I should also say that it is not just a matter of tax policy, although that is important, and the hon. Gentleman rightly focused many of his remarks in that area. There are other things that can and need to be done to improve the environment for enterprise in this country. For example, the enterprise finance guarantee will provide up to £600 million of additional lending to around 6,000 viable SMEs in 2011 and, subject to demand, over £2 billion in total over the next four years. For the enterprise capital funds, the Government are increasing their commitment by £200 million over the next four years, providing more than £300 million venture capital investment into the equity gap for early stage innovative SMEs with the highest growth potential.
The regional growth fund has made £1.4 billion available over three years for projects or programmes that deliver the fund’s objectives to stimulate enterprise by providing support for projects and programmes with significant potential to drive economic growth.
Lindsay Roy
Is there not a criticism that there is a lack of strategic focus on the video games industry? I strongly support the investment in the Abertay graduate programme, but evidence indicates that the majority of young people who graduate from there are going abroad. They are not staying in the UK, whether they are from Dundee or south of the border.
John Penrose
That is a fact of life in an increasingly globalising market. This is a globalising market, not just for the product of video games, but for the staff. Many other industries are already incredibly globalised, everything from financial to medical services. This sector will be going the same way. I am sure we will all be delighted to see British brains and talent travelling the world. It is true to say that many people come back to the UK later in their career and start up businesses here or join at a senior level.
I am conscious of time so would like to draw to a close by saying that I fear the hon. Member for Dundee West and I are not going to agree on a fundamental point about macro-economic policy. I hope I have, none the less, laid out that the Government are doing a series of things. Unfortunately, they are not precisely what he recommends. However, it is not true that we are a “do nothing” Government; we are doing a great deal. I fear that he and I will have to disagree on precisely what that should be.
Question put and agreed to.
Written Ministerial Statements
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
Council for Science and Technology
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David Willetts)
The Prime Minister has appointed 11 new members to the CST. This process was made in accordance with the rules of the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments.
The CST is the UK Government’s top-level advisory body on science and technology policy issues. It reports directly to the Prime Minister. CST’s remit is to advise the Prime Minister on strategic science and technology policy issues that cut across the responsibilities of individual Government Departments.
The newly appointed members are:
Professor Keith Burnett FRS—Vice-Chancellor of Sheffield University;
Professor Steven Cowley —CEO of the UKAEA;
Professor Dame Sandra Dawson—Deputy Vice-Chancellor of Cambridge University;
Mr Rowan Douglas—CEO of Willis Re Global Analytics and Chairman of Willis Research Network;
Dr Paul Golby FREng—Chairman and CEO of E.ON UK and Pro-Chancellor of Aston University;
Professor Dame Julia Goodfellow FMed Sci—Vice-Chancellor University of Kent;
Dr Michael Lynch—CEO of Autonomy Corporation plc;
Professor Dame Nancy Rothwell FRS FMedSci—President and Vice-Chancellor of Manchester University;
Mr Colin Smith FREng—Director of Engineering and Technology at Rolls-Royce;
Professor Christopher Snowden FRS FREng—Vice-Chancellor and CEO of Surrey University;
Dr Graham Spittle—Vice-President and Chief Technology Officer Europe at IBM and Chair of the Technology Strategy Board.
Earlier this year the Prime Minister reappointed five CST members:
Professor Dame Janet Finch CBE—Professor of Sociology Manchester University and ex-Vice-Chancellor of Keele University;
Dr Hermann Hauser Hon CBE, FREng—Venture capitalist and co-founder of Amadeus Capital Partners;
Professor Alan Hughes—Director of the Centre for Business Research at Cambridge University;
Professor Michael Sterling FREng—Chairman of the Science and Technology Facilities Council and ex-Vice-Chancellor of Birmingham University;
Sir Mark Walport FMedSci FRS—Director of the Wellcome Trust;
together with four ex officio members:
The President of the Royal Society—Sir Paul Nurse FRS;
The President of the Royal Academy of Engineering—Lord Browne FRS FREng;
The President of the Academy of Medical Sciences—Sir John Bell PMedSci FRS Hon FREng;
The President of the British Academy—Sir Adam Roberts FBA.
The Prime Minister also reappointed Professor Dame Janet Finch as independent co-chair of CST for one year, alongside the Government’s chief scientific adviser, currently Professor Sir John Beddington.
Full details of CST’s terms of reference and organisation can be found at http://www.bis.gov.uk/cst.
Travellers Caravan Count
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Andrew Stunell)
The Government have, on 29 June, published the “Count of Gypsy and Traveller Caravans undertaken on 27 January 2011”, along with experimental statistics on the count of Travelling Showpeople caravans.
Copies have been placed in the Library of the House and can be accessed via the Department for Communities and Local Government website at:
http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/corporate/statistics/caravancountjan2011
Armed Forces (Council Tax Relief)
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)
Further to the statement made by my right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State for Defence on 16 May 2011, Official Report, columns 25-27, regarding the armed forces covenant, I am today announcing the increase of the rate of council tax relief for service personnel deployed on specified operations overseas, from 25% to 50%, to commence from 1 July 2011. This further underlines our commitment to rebuilding the armed forces covenant, that unique bond between the armed forces, the Government and the nation.
Nuclear Deterrent
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Defence (Dr Liam Fox)
As part of his statement on the strategic defence and security review (SDSR) on 19 October 2010, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said that we had reviewed our deterrence requirements and concluded that we could meet the requirement for an effective and credible deterrent with a smaller number of nuclear weapons and over the next few years would reduce the scale of the current deployed capability, incorporating this reduction into plans for the successor submarine. Therefore, we would reduce the number of warheads on board each submarine from a maximum of 48 to a maximum of 40, reduce the number of operational missiles in the VANGUARD class submarines to no more than eight, and reduce the number of operational warheads from fewer than 160 to no more than 120.
I wish to inform the House that the programme for implementing the SDSR warhead reductions has commenced: at least one of the VANGUARD class ballistic missile submarines (SSBN) now carries a maximum of 40 nuclear warheads. The programme of work to complete these changes across the VANGUARD SSBN fleet will be completed within the constraints of the deterrent’s operational programme. We currently expect completion to be made within this Parliament. The Government do not comment upon the operational programme and therefore updates on this implementation programme will not be given. I will update the House further once the changes have been completed across the current SSBN fleet and the SDSR commitment to reducing our stock of operationally deployed warheads has been fulfilled. On current plans, our expectation is that the subsequent reduction in our total stockpile to no more than 180 warheads will be completed by the mid 2020s.
The early commencement of the programme for these reductions in warheads is a significant step and further demonstrates the Government’s commitment to fulfilling the UK’s disarmament obligations under the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. The Government remain committed to maintaining the minimum credible deterrent necessary to achieve our deterrence objectives of guaranteeing national security.
New Independent Assessor of Compensation for Miscarriages of Justice
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
I am pleased to announce the appointment of the right hon. Dame Janet Smith DBE as the new independent assessor of miscarriages of justice compensation under section 133 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988. The assessor is appointed under schedule 12 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988.
The assessor’s role is to assess the amount of compensation to be paid under section 133 once Ministers have decided that the eligibility criteria are met. Neither Ministers nor civil servants play any role in the assessment of compensation and I am required by section 133 (4) to accept the award made by the assessor. The assessor plays no role in deciding whether an applicant is eligible under section 133.
Dame Janet, who retired as an Appeal Court judge in May, replaces Lord Brennan of Bibury QC who has held the position since 27 July 2001 and whose term of office comes to an end on 26 July 2011. Lord Brennan indicated that he did not wish to be appointed for a further term. Dame Janet will take up her appointment on 1 July, which will initially be for two years.
The assessor is an “office holder” rather than a public appointment so the appointment rules of the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments (OCPA) are not required to be followed.
However, in considering who should be appointed to the role, I consulted the Lord Chief Justice and he recommended Dame Janet. I was delighted to accept his recommendation.
Dame Janet is eminently qualified for the role. She has extensive experience of the assessment of damages in personal injury litigation. As a former lady justice of appeal she will continue the robust independence which her predecessors have brought to the role. As well as my full confidence, she will have the confidence of applicants and their representatives.
Finally, I am extremely grateful to Lord Brennan for the very high level of service he has provided over the past 10 years.
Ministerial Correction
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Written StatementsRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
I refer to the debate following my oral statement on sentencing reform and legal aid, 21 June 2011, Official Report, column 165.
In my response to the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), regarding a reduction in foreign national prisoners at column 173, I gave an indicative comparative figure stating that there are now 1,000 fewer FNPs than when the previous Government left office.
I would like to correct the information I gave. As of 31 March 2011, there were 10,745 FNPs—622 fewer than on 31 March 2010, when there were 11,367 FNPs.
As I said in the debate, the Ministry of Justice continues to work with the UK Border Agency to remove FNPs at the earliest possible opportunity.
In my response to the hon. Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris), on the issue of legal aid funding for clinical negligence claims at column 174, I stated that 80% of clinical negligence cases are currently undertaken on a no win, no fee basis.
I would like to correct the information I gave. The precise data I now have, from the NHS Litigation Authority, show that in 2008-09 5,245 claims for clinical negligence were received by the NHSLA. Of the 3,993 clinical negligence cases where the type of funding was known, 1,821 (46% of cases where funding type was known) were funded by no win, no fee conditional fee agreements, 1,145 (29%) were funded by legal aid, 632 (16%) were self-funded, and 395 (10%) were funded by “before the event” legal expenses insurance. I understand from the NHSLA that the cases where funding type was not known are unlikely to be CFA-funded. Although the NHSLA covers clinical negligence cases against NHS bodies in England only, there is no reason to suggest that the breakdown of funding arrangements for all clinical negligence cases in England and Wales is significantly different.
House of Lords
Message from the Queen
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to deliver to your Lordships a message signed with her own hand.
The Lord Speaker (Baroness Hayman)
My Lords, the message is as follows:
“Her Majesty, being desirous that the provision made by Parliament for the financial support of the Royal Household should be considered, asks the Lords Spiritual and Temporal to concur in the adoption of such measures as the House of Commons may propose as suitable”.
Prisons: HM Young Offender Institution Feltham
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Ramsbotham
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many of the recommendations of the public inquiry into the murder of Zahid Mubarek in HM Young Offender Institution Feltham, published on 29 June 2006, remain unimplemented.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, the National Offender Management Service has fully implemented 71 of the 88 recommendations made in the report of the Zahid Mubarek inquiry. Two recommendations were rejected at the time of the publication of the report. The remaining 15 recommendations were either partially implemented or have become obsolete as a result of other developments.
Lord Ramsbotham
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Nineteen year-old Zahid Mubarek was murdered in March 2000 by a known racist psychopath with whom he had been paired in a cell by prison staff. Three and a half years later, your Lordships took the unprecedented step of directing that there should be a public inquiry into the murder, resisted until then by successive Home Secretaries. Its report was published five years ago today, following which, for two years or so, the Home Office convened regular meetings with the Mubarek family to update them on the processing of the 88 recommendations. These meetings have ceased. To demonstrate to the family and to others who are interested that improving the treatment of and conditions for black and ethnic-minority prisoners remains on the agenda, I ask the Minister if he would be kind enough to publish not only the details of how many recommendations have not been implemented but also what action, or inaction, has been taken on each one of them.
Lord McNally
My Lords, I shall certainly do that. I have four or five pages of briefing on actions here and I shall put some of them in the Library. It is not a matter of inaction or refusal to implement; as I said in my initial reply, some of the recommendations have been bypassed by the implementation of other policies. It is certainly true that many lessons were learnt from this tragedy. Contact with the family continued, as the noble Lord said. The thrust and direction of policy that the inquiry initiated has gone on apace, in a way which, we hope, will avoid as far as humanly possible such a tragedy happening again.
Lord Thomas of Gresford
My Lords, exactly what is the position with regard to overcrowding at Feltham, which is one of the reasons that lay behind the tragic events to which the Minister referred?
Lord McNally
My Lords, I am not sure that there is overcrowding, unless one is talking about the ability to provide every prisoner with a single cell. That was one of the recommendations that could not be accepted, simply because the provision of single-cell accommodation would put such pressure on capacity that it could not be delivered. Both staff training and assessment before arranging cell sharing are much more thorough than before. As I said, we hope that this will avoid the kind of tragedy that the Mubarek murder revealed.
Lord Elton
My Lords, the report revealed the most woeful state of the paper trail, as it is called, of the documents that are supposed to go with prisoners but very often do not—many of the documents did not arrive. The report said that an important contributory factor related to the Learmont recommendation, made in 1995, that a central electronic database for prisoner security information should be established. Has that been fully established and, if so, with what results?
Lord McNally
I am not sure whether that has been fully established, but I will write to my noble friend on the specifics of whether the 1995 recommendations have been fully implemented. Sometimes with these reports, there is a gap between full implementation and actual practicality and resources. However, I know that, in terms of assessing prisoners for cell sharing, and indeed in dealing with prisoners during their time in custody, there has been much improved sharing of information among the various agencies. In the host prison, from the governor downwards, there is now as full as possible an assessment of the prisoner’s susceptibilities that would make it better or not for them to be cell sharers.
Lord Roberts of Llandudno
My Lords, following the suicide of failed asylum seekers, what assessment is there of the possibility of such suicides taking place?
Lord McNally
My Lords, there is constant assessment of suicide risk for anyone who is held in custody. Certainly as far as I understand them, these assessments are very thorough in trying to avoid suicide. On the specific point, which goes slightly wide of the Question, I will look at the issue and write to my noble friend.
Lord Corbett of Castle Vale
Can the Minister confirm that there has been a welcome reduction in the number of convicted prisoners in young offender institutions? Is it the department’s policy, over time, to try to achieve in so far as is possible single-cell occupancy by young offenders?
Lord McNally
I do not think that I can make that commitment from the Dispatch Box. In part, that is because part of the advice that we get—this relates back to the suicide issue as well—is that the assessment made of young offenders sometimes shows that cell sharing could be of benefit in the circumstances, rather than leaving them in isolation. I make no bones about the fact that it is partly a matter of the resources that would be required for single-cell accommodation, but we also get strong professional advice that, in some circumstances, cell sharing can be of benefit to the young people concerned.
Lord Campbell of Alloway
My Lords, what can be obsolete as a matter of policy in respect of the law of murder?
Lord McNally
For example, some of the recommendations in the report related to cell furniture, which had already been changed by the time that the report came out. Part of the difficulty was that some cell furniture could too readily be used for violence. There were changes to the design of cell furniture—for example, bolting cell furniture to the floor so that it could not be so easily used—so that, by the time that the report came out, the recommendation on cell furniture was obsolete.
Social Welfare Law
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, our proposals for the future of social welfare law were contained in our response to the consultation paper, Proposals for the Reform of legal aid in England and Wales, made on 21 June. We announced that we would retain legal aid for the highest priority cases, including cases where a person is homeless or at immediate risk of homelessness or to address housing disrepairs that pose a serious risk to life or health and for community care cases. We have decided that legal aid will no longer be routinely available in other social welfare law matters, except for claims currently funded relating to the contravention of the Equality Act 2010.
Lord Bach
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his reply. A better name for social welfare law would be poverty law. Often through CABs, law centres and private solicitors, this legal aid goes to giving legal advice to the poor and marginalised on legal problems around housing, debt, employment and welfare benefits. The Government, as we have just heard, intend to decimate this type of cost-effective legal aid. Does the noble Lord agree with the reported remarks of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale, that these changes will have,
“a disproportionate effect upon the poorest and most vulnerable in society”?
Does he also agree that this removal of access to justice—because that is what it is—is precisely what the late noble and learned Lord, Lord Bingham, meant when he wrote that,
“denial of legal protection to the poor litigant who cannot afford to pay is one enemy of the rule of law”?
Lord McNally
My Lords, under our proposals, legal aid will be retained in the highest priority housing cases, where a person’s home is at immediate risk, for homelessness, serious disrepair, unlawful eviction, orders for the sale of the home, and asylum support cases relating to accommodation. Legal aid will be available in debt matters where a person’s home is at immediate risk. We will still be spending about £50 million a year on this section of legal aid.
I have read the comments of the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale. I have said from this Dispatch Box that if you have a policy that is aimed at the poorest in our society and you cut the budget, of course there will be an inevitable impact. But in trying to develop this policy we have tried to minimise that impact and focus our resources on those most in need.
Lord Carlile of Berriew
My Lords, would my noble friend like to take a short journey down to the Lambeth County Court and other comparable courts in London, Manchester, Sheffield and other cities, where he would find if he spent half a day there that the only way in which to get your house repaired is to sue the local council? All other measures to obtain house repairs are not succeeding. He would then perhaps realise that limiting legal aid to quite the extent which the Government are ambitious to limit it is going a step too far.
Lord McNally
Well, I hear what my noble friend is saying. The department was faced with some very hard decisions on a £2 billion cut in a department which, as I have said before, has expenditure on only four areas—prisons, probation, legal aid and on the administration of justice. We have tried to focus where we can on areas of need. I was very interested in the editorial in the Guardian on legal aid, which was headed, “Unjust cuts”. In the course of that editorial, it said:
“It is now being examined for the eighth time since the Children Act 1989”.
The noble Lord knows very well that his own Administration were looking hard at legal aid and how to cut it. It went on:
“The need for reform, and for a more cost-effective system, is undisputed … Professionals acknowledge that too many of these cases come to court, and welcome the proposal for greater use of mediation … Change is needed. There are savings to be made”.
That is under the title of “Unjust cuts”. Those are the realities that we are facing.
Baroness Lister of Burtersett
My Lords, there is considerable disquiet among welfare law agencies about the impact of the withdrawal of legal aid from welfare benefits law at the very time when that law is to be changed significantly. Can the Minister therefore please advise the House as to what steps the Government will take to ensure there is adequate independent advice and assistance for all those affected by the welfare reform legislation?
Lord McNally
The hope and the intention is that we can give further assistance to those who are giving advice. One of the analyses we make of this area of law—this goes partly back to the question asked by my noble friend—is that it is not necessarily legal advice that is needed. There may be alternative forms of advice to enable people to manage their way through these difficulties. These problems have been raised with us and we will continue to keep them under review. I take the point that the noble Baroness has made.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
Will my noble friend kindly think again about this whole issue because it really is a case of penny wise, pound foolish? The citizens advice bureaux, which deliver help to 2.1 million people a year and are mainly volunteer manned, reckon that for every £1 of government subsidy they save the Exchequer £8 in welfare advice. How can it conceivably make sense, therefore, to go ahead with cutting their subsidy from £27 million this year to £7 million next year?
Lord McNally
My Lords, perhaps I can answer both that question and the one that the noble Baroness has just posed by saying that the Government recognise the important role played by not-for-profit organisations and citizens advice bureaux. We are working with the sector, and across Government, to ensure that the implementation of government reforms helps to improve the efficiency and effectiveness of advice services available to the public. My right honourable friend the Lord Chancellor will by now, I hope, have announced in another place that we will be providing additional funds of about £20 million in this financial year to help achieve this. We will continue discussions with CABs and not-for-profit organisations about future funding.
NHS: Health Improvements
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Thornton
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they will ensure that the NHS delivers strategic health improvements requiring levels of technology and expertise appropriate to regions or cities with large populations.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)
My Lords, our commissioning proposals will establish a national NHS commissioning board providing oversight of commissioning in the NHS and directly commissioning some services, including specialised services, where it makes sense to commission for larger populations. The NHS commissioning board will have a sub-national presence and local commissioning will be undertaken by clinical commissioning groups. The NHS commissioning board will have a duty to promote integrated services for patients, both within the NHS and between other local services.
Baroness Thornton
I thank the Minister for that Answer, as far as it goes. The successful reorganisation of stroke services in London, which has saved many lives, was led by clinicians, as it should have been, but the commissioning and its delivery were in fact only brought about by NHS London, the ability of the strategic health authority to manage the PCTs and through great collaboration with the providers. Apart from the providers, all of these bodies are being dismantled and abolished as we speak. In the new system, how precisely would similar improvements be brought about? Who would take the lead and who would ensure their delivery?
Earl Howe
My Lords, where it is deemed appropriate to commission a service at scale but below the level of the NHS commissioning board, as I described in my original Answer, it will be open to clinical commissioning groups either to establish a lead group to take control of the commissioning and to agree budgets and pathways or for clinical commissioning groups to collaborate jointly. The advantage of the system that we are proposing is its flexibility. Depending on population size and the needs of an area, commissioning can be done at several levels.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, the Question was so difficult to understand that I thought it was about telemedicine. Does it cover the issue of reducing the number of accident and emergency services in London so that they are more equivalent to the stroke units, which, as the noble Baroness said, have worked so well? Many people say that fewer but more effective accident and emergency services would be better. On the other hand, is the Minister aware of the concern over the closure of the Royal Brompton’s heart section for children, which is essential to the future of that hospital?
Earl Howe
My Lords, my noble friend will know that an independent inquiry into children’s heart services is under way at the moment. It would be inappropriate for me to comment. I have not been involved at all but it would be inappropriate for Ministers to become involved. As regards ambulance and A&E services, we envisage that clinical commissioning groups will commission the great majority of NHS services for their patients, including urgent and emergency care and ambulance services. Prior to that, PCT clusters, which are being formed from the primary care trusts, will be responsible for commissioning ambulance services until 1 April 2013.
Lord Winston
My Lords, does the Minister agree that we are facing one of the greatest revolutions in medicine—that is, genomic medicine? It will make medical treatment more effective and efficient and will reduce the national drug bill. Therefore, does he not agree that one of the most urgent needs of a large population is for increased computing power and proper information technology?
Earl Howe
I absolutely agree with the noble Lord. The information agenda, which should run in parallel with our plans, is essential for delivering the improvement in outcomes that we all want to see. Part of that will involve new technology. As the noble Lord knows, work is under way on genomic medicine, which is extremely exciting. We have included in the amendments tabled to the Health and Social Care Bill in another place a duty on both the Secretary of State and clinical commissioning groups to promote research in the health service.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
My Lords, who will be the final arbiter in a decision if a commissioning board commissions a highly specialised treatment that may require patient testing locally and an infrastructure of local services, but the local commissioning group does not recognise the importance and potential good patient outcomes of this, and therefore does not adequately provide the infrastructure needed for the more highly specialised service?
Earl Howe
My Lords, the system ought to respond to the kind of situation that the noble Baroness has posited. If a service is specially commissioned by a board, that board and local commissioners will be required to work in concert. If they do not, there will be mechanisms to ensure that the healthcare needs of an area are aired at the local authority level—that is, through the joint health and well-being boards, whose job it will be to prioritise the commissioning of services in that area.
Piracy
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Clinton-Davis
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to combat the threat of piracy on the high seas.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, the United Kingdom is playing a key role in counterpiracy operations at sea, and we are leading international work with regional countries to build penal, judicial and law enforcement capacities in support. More than 1,000 pirates are now in custody. The first line of defence remains self-defence measures by ships to minimise the risk of a successful hijack. However, the long-term solution lies on land, with the rule of law and increased stability in the region.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Off Somalia alone, was there not an increase in piracy of some 60 per cent in 2010? The situation has not improved this year. I understand that masters and crew have been subjected to horrendous behaviour. Do the Government agree that this behaviour has been financed largely by al-Qaeda? Is it not self-evident that ships entering such waters should carry armed guards?
Lord Howell of Guildford
On the first point, the noble Lord is not quite correct; the figures that we have show that there were 47 hijacks in 2009 and 41 in 2010. In the first six months of this year the number was down to 18 and the number of unsuccessful attacks has also dropped very dramatically, so the total number of attacks so far this year is way down on last year. There is no room for complacency there at all because it is still a very ugly situation, as the noble Lord indicates, but a number of measures are being taken on land in building the prisons to deal with convicted pirates and on the high seas through unprecedented co-ordination between all the navies of countries such as the United States, Russia, all the NATO countries, Japan and China—a degree of co-ordination never before seen among navies. This is having the effect of reducing, not increasing, the incidence of piracy, but we still have a long way to go.
Lord Chidgey
Is my noble friend aware that the African Union has stated that the United Nations is actively considering an air and sea blockade of Somalia in an attempt to prevent infiltration of insurgents into the Horn of Africa and to meet the crippling piracy challenge? Has such a blockade been agreed? If so, when might it come into play, and what part might the United Kingdom play in it?
Lord Howell of Guildford
My noble friend is perfectly correct that the African Union has proposed an air and sea blockade of Somalia, and its idea is to blockade ports such as Kismayo to put pressure on al-Shabaab logistics and funding. I should have said to the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, that we have very little evidence of connections between al-Qaeda and the piracy operations, although there may be some at an individual level.
As to blockades, an issue that my noble friend Lord Chidgey raises, the difficulty with permanent blockades is that they are hugely demanding on resources and a lot of the pirate operations are from beaches, not ports, so if you blockaded the port you still would not catch the pirates. However, intermittent or occasional blockades make sense, have already been tried against several operating bases and appear to have had a dramatic effect in reducing pirate operations. As a “from time to time” operation, this makes sense, but mounting permanent blockades would be immensely expensive and probably not very effective.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
My Lords, again on the question asked by my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis, there appears to be an increasing consensus that there is a need to re-examine the case for armed guards on merchant vessels. Where do the Government stand on this?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I should have answered that third question from the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis; the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, is absolutely right. The view up to the present is that armed guards on UK-registered vessels would be technically illegal unless they came under military, authorised guard arrangements. However, that matter is being looked at again by my right honourable and honourable friends in the relevant departments. Some changes might be necessary, but hitherto the feeling has been that armed guards—certainly mounted on a private enterprise basis—could lead to more bloodshed and horror, possibly not deter the hijackers, and merely increase the violence. However, the matter is being reconsidered.
Lord King of Bridgwater
The noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, suggested that this piracy was being funded by al-Qaeda, but does the Minister not agree that the reality is that it is being funded by the insurance companies, which are paying out substantial sums and making a number of people in Somalia extremely rich? Those people are now living in Nairobi, among other places. Did he see the evidence given yesterday at his nomination hearing by Admiral McRaven, who is being nominated as the head of the US Special Operations Command and was responsible for overseeing the operation against bin Laden, who said that there is a real need for a facility to deal with the problem of terrorists when they are captured? My noble friend gave some encouraging figures on prosecutions being brought against people, but can he give an assurance that there are no cases of these pirates being captured at sea, merely shipped back to Somalia and allowed to do it all over again?
Lord Howell of Guildford
On my noble friend’s first point, the British Government totally oppose all substantive ransom payments, will continue to do so, and advise everyone else to do so as well. That includes payments by insurance companies. It does not necessarily stop other countries behaving in what we think is a rather unwise way, but that is our position. My noble friend will have to repeat his further question, because I have forgotten it already.
Lord King of Bridgwater
I asked about making sure that there is a facility for handling the problem of captured pirates by ensuring that they are not simply returned to Somalia and able to make the next trip.
Lord Howell of Guildford
The noble Lord is right. This has been a considerable worry, and that is why I was able to tell your Lordships that considerable progress has now been made in providing prison facilities. One prison has been built in Somaliland, and a further prison is planned in Puntland. These will take the pressure off countries such as Kenya, which have found themselves landed with convicted pirates and with no means of imprisoning them and making them fulfil their penalties. Therefore, there is some improvement. I fully agree that there have been bad examples in the past, but we believe that with these measures and others it will be possible to ensure that those who are caught are properly charged and convicted and pay the full penalty.
Undertakings for Collective Investment in Transferable Securities Regulations 2011
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Sassoon
That the draft regulations laid before the House on 10 June be approved.
Relevant document: 24th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 27 June.
Lord Eatwell
My Lords, I wish to bring to the attention of the whole House some aspects of these regulations that are a source of grave concern. During the discussion on the regulations in Grand Committee on Monday, it became evident, to me at least, that the Government have seriously misjudged the regulations’ importance, notably in their potential impact on the savings of British families and on UK consumers of financial services in general.
These regulations are the latest stage in the programme to establish throughout Europe a single market in transferrable financial instruments, where Europe is defined as the EEA—the European economic area. The programme began in 1988. An important component of that process has been to give fund managers in non-member states the ability to passport their services into another member state. Today—29 June—this is done by complying with various requirements of the regulator in the jurisdiction in which the funds are to be marketed. For example, the FSA typically requires fund management companies to establish a legal presence in the UK that can be regulated and supervised by the FSA. As of this Friday—1 July, when these regulations come into force—that will no longer be the case. Instead, the so-called simplified notification procedure established by these regulations removes the rights of national regulators to vet funds before they are marketed. Thereby, British savers will be relying on the regulator in, say, Iceland, Romania or Malta to ensure that their savings are adequately protected.
This is a fundamental change. It is not, as the noble Lord, Lord Sassoon, argued in Grand Committee,
“a sensible piece of tidying-up”.—[Official Report, 27/6/11; col. GC 145]
In fact, the European authorities have recognised some of the potential dangers and, by means of the same regulations, have introduced two measures to attempt to protect consumers. First, there is to be a simplified prospectus—a key investor information document—and, secondly, there is to be improved supervisory co-operation across member states. Of course these are desirable measures, but it has for many years been a fundamental tenet of financial regulation in this country that caveat emptor is not a satisfactory doctrine in the complex world of financial instruments. However well informed the buyer might be, the seller always has the upper hand. Moreover, having sat on the boards of various national financial regulators of the past 20 years—I sit at present on the board of a regulator outwith the European Union—I assure noble Lords that exchange of information between regulators is often imperfect and sometimes downright misleading, particularly where sensitive national interests are involved.
In the Treasury's own assessment of the impact of the regulations, it is conceded that the new management company passport,
“may cause some operational and supervisory difficulties which could reduce consumer protection”.
Having apparently recognised the problem, the Government have decided to do nothing about it, over and above what they are required to do by the European regulations themselves. The safeguards built into the regulations are significantly inferior to those enjoyed by British consumers today; they will lose those safeguards on Friday.
I have just one question for the Minister: what additional measures of consumer protection will the Government introduce on Friday to compensate for the erosion of UK consumer protection by the regulations?
The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)
My Lords, I am continually surprised by things that come up in this House that I was not expecting but, on a totally non-contentious piece of European legislation, I am surprised that the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, pronounces that such horrific things are allegedly to happen.
For the benefit of noble Lords, perhaps I should explain that the statutory instrument implements an EU directive which is concerned with the sale of collective savings products. It is the third amendment to a directive that dates back to the late 1980s. It is a directive which is pro-consumer—it gives greater protection to consumers than exists today. It helps to complete the single market in fund management. It is supportive of UK-based financial services businesses.
At a time when lots of contentious matters come from Brussels which we rightly debate at length in your Lordships' House, it is remarkable that the Opposition seek to find fault with something which has been endorsed by consumer and business interests. I do not know whether the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, talked to his noble friend Lord Davies of Oldham who, in a Written Ministerial Statement laid in this House on 4 June 2007, said that the UK supported the commission's proposals for reform of the UCITS framework. Those are the proposals which we consider this afternoon. He may or may not have talked to his colleague, Mr Chris Leslie, who in another place this Monday said, among other things, that the regulations are generally uncontentious. That seems remarkably at odds with the position taken by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell.
Unless noble Lords would like me to, I do not want to prolong debate on what is, as I said, a very good piece of legislation proposed by the Commission which has had the UK's full support over the past three years. In answer to the noble Lord’s specific question and contentions, he is wrong in what he says about the passporting of funds. It is true that incoming funds can start accessing the UK market as soon as a complete notification is received, but the FSA does not believe that that will significantly change the processes by which it monitors incoming UCITS today. The funds will still be required to comply with UK law, and the FSA will be able to direct its operator to suspend the promotion of the scheme if it contravenes those laws.
I do not believe in the premise from which the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, starts. Indeed, in answer to his question, we will be bringing in tighter protection for consumers on 1 July, because that is precisely what, among other things, the instrument does. It improves and simplifies investor disclosure, making it easier for investors to understand the risks involved in what they are buying.
I could go on, but I think that I have detained the House long enough.
Gender Recognition (Approved Countries and Territories) Order 2011
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord McNally
That the draft orders laid before the House on 26 April, 17 May and 23 May be approved.
Relevant documents: 20th and 23rd Reports from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 27 June.
Wreck Removal Convention Bill
Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
18:14 - Division on Amendment 3 - Ayes: 186 / Noes: 201 - Amendment 3 disagreed.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Browning)
My Lords, it may be for the convenience of the House if, at the beginning, I apologise for the fact that the government amendments tabled for Report were not put down within the one-week period usually given by the Government. I particularly apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, for any inconvenience that this has caused Her Majesty’s Opposition.
There were reasons for the delay in tabling these amendments. As I promised in Committee, I met opposition, Cross Bench, Conservative and Liberal Democrat Peers, and we had a series of very helpful and constructive discussions. Noble Lords will also be aware that more than 600 amendments were tabled in Committee. We considered fully what was said at that stage and in the meetings held subsequently before deciding what changes would be acceptable to the Government. As noble Lords will know only too well, before government amendments can be tabled, they must first receive collective clearance, and it was this that caused the delay. However, I am aware that it might have been more helpful if, on tabling the amendments, I could have provided a more fulsome explanation of them and the thinking behind them. I am very willing to do that now if the House wishes me to go into more detail but perhaps I may begin by giving a flavour of them.
Much of our discussion in Committee resulted from concern across the House about checks and balances on police and crime commissioners. We listened to the representations from all sides of the Chamber and have put forward a substantial package of amendments specifically on checks and balances. We have, I believe, increased the powers of police and crime panels, reducing their veto from three-quarters to two-thirds, and we have introduced confirmation hearings to panels for the appointment of chief finance officers and chief executives. Panels will now be allowed to invite chief constables to attend hearings with police and crime commissioners. Furthermore, it became clear from discussions with colleagues across the House that there had been an omission in our deliberations. The panel will hold the PCC to account and scrutinise its activities but perhaps we did not emphasise enough that it will also support the police and crime commissioner. Therefore, we have made amendments to the Bill to make it very clear that, while the panel will have the role of holding to account, it will also have a supportive role. That is just a flavour of what we have attempted to do on checks and balances.
Noble Lords will know that many other amendments have been tabled on which we shall deliberate in some detail in the days ahead. We have also listened on some of the more controversial areas of the Bill. I recall that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, advised me that, if on Report we were to put to a vote the question of Members of your Lordships’ House not being able to stand as PCCs, we would most certainly lose. I have taken his words to heart and have removed that clause entirely from the Bill. I hope that people who had seen their future going in that direction will now feel encouraged to start making their representations.
I apologise if this introduction to the Report stage is not quite what is normally expected in your Lordships’ House. I promise to write to all those, including the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, in a lot more detail about the proposals before us and, on that basis, I hope that we can proceed to Report.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, there will be joy all over the land at the prospect of Members of your Lordships' House standing for election to these new bodies. I thank the noble Baroness very much for her remarks, which are much appreciated.
Lord Carlile of Berriew
“( ) Each police area shall have a directly elected police authority.
( ) Each police authority shall number not less than seven and not more than 11 members.
( ) The number of members of each police authority shall be set by order made by statutory instrument following consultation by the Secretary of State with the authority, each local authority part of which is included in the police area, and the chief constable for the time being; and such consultation shall be completed at least three months prior to the first election of such an authority, and by the beginning of the fourth year following each subsequent election.
( ) Police authorities will be elected in accordance with section 51 of this Act.
( ) The police and crime commissioner will be the person elected by its members to chair the police authority for the time being.”
Lord Carlile of Berriew
My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the Minister for the announcement that she has just made. The revelation that Members of your Lordships’ House will be able to stand for election as police commissioners is no doubt fully in the spirit of the previous business before the House, which I noticed was the Wreck Removal Convention Bill.
In moving this amendment, I say to the House, and particularly to my noble friend, that I applaud the Government for insisting on a democratic principle behind accountability for policing. I absolutely believe that it is right that there should be police and crime commissioners; and I absolutely believe that it is right that police and crime commissioners should be elected. However, I think that we can do better than the recipe given in the Bill by the Government: we could have better election, better leadership and better accountability. Therefore, in that spirit, I raise the possibility of considering elected police authorities. I would have moved this amendment on the first day in Committee, but events meant that I was not able to, so I do not feel that I have to apologise for doing so now.
Over the past 15 years or so, barristers who have appeared in cases with me as my juniors will know that I am a strong supporter of the great Surrey philosopher, William of Occam, who lived in the 13th and early 14th centuries. He is, of course, most famous for his Occam’s razor, a famous slogan which is often expressed as,
“Do not multiply entities beyond necessity”,
or as one American presidential candidate put it, “Keep it simple, stupid”. No one wants needlessly bloated legislation or a needlessly boated set of organisations. The real question is which entities are needed and which are not. Occam’s razor never allows us to deny the existence of putative entities; it is often good to have a discussion of a wider range of possibilities in order to resolve that simplicity will work. Occam’s razor teaches us that it is best to refrain from creating complex entities, unless there are compelling reasons for doing so and, if simple entities will do the job, then they should exist. As William of Occam said—if I can be allowed one quotation from his extremely distinguished and interesting oeuvre:
“For nothing ought to be posited without a reason given, unless it is self-evident (literally, known through itself) or known by experience or proved by the authority of Sacred Scripture”.
I see a right reverend Prelate on the Bishops’ Bench and I am sure that he will confirm, if asked, that there is no authority in Sacred Scripture for police and crime commissioners. So here we are looking at the dictates of reason, practicality, accountability and good results.
I think it is understood that some police authorities have done very well and some less well. Some have been faced with extreme difficulties and, in my professional life, I have advised two or three in that situation. Those who listened to the advice resolved their problems rather quickly and easily; those who did not were less good at doing so, but that is the way of the world in the lawyer’s life. There are plenty of examples of others who have not had to take complicated and expensive—well, moderately expensive—legal advice who have done their job very well.
However, the fact that they are not directly elected would lead many members of police authorities, and especially their clerks, their chief executives, who have been a very distinguished group of people, to recognise that they lack one essential quality. The essential quality they lack is not competence, experience or knowledge of the law or of the facts that they have to face. Nor do they lack considerable experience of having to co-operate with chief officers of police. Looking around the House at what I will call the usual suspects who, of course, are not obliged to say anything unless they wish to do so, I say with some diffidence that sometimes the relationship between police authorities and their chief officers has been so outstanding that it has been recognisable in the improved policing of the area. Occasionally, excusing all those at whom I am looking now, it has been rather less successful and has led to what one might politely call dynamic tension between the two. I have to say that in most instances when that has happened, it has been the chief officer of police who has gone before the chairman of the police authority. One might find some evidence there for the success of police authorities.
The present proposals in the Bill for directly elected individual police and crime commissioners create an obvious danger. It would be invidious to cite individual examples; I think sufficient is done by referring to the general point, but there is a real risk of irremovable individual hegemony in which an elected police and crime commissioner finds him or herself at odds with the strong minded male or female chief officer of police for the police area in question. I see that as a recipe for really difficult relationships between the police and those who are in some away accountable for them. My belief is that if we were to have directly elected police authorities, a true illustration of democracy, those problems would be avoided. The suggestion I have put forward in my amendment is that the whole police authority, which is not very large, should be directly elected by the public. This is one of those elections in which I believe the public would take a lively interest. If a group of people—for example, a political party—perfectly legitimately put forward a slate for election to the police authority, the public would know who was likely to lead that group were it to form a majority on the police authority.
In any event, it is likely that there would not be one-party rule on a police authority. Whether there was or was not, the person who became the chair of the police authority would become the police and crime commissioner. He or she would have been directly elected by the public, and would be removable if he or she lost the support of the police authority. Change would be straightforward and, I would submit to your Lordships, it would assist the smooth running of the police service itself in the police area and the accountable governance thereof. I also believe that the election of police authorities would be simpler than what is proposed, would not involve the hybrid organisations that are suggested to lie under the police and crime commissioner and would give a form of accountability recognisable to the public.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, the noble Lord advances his argument with his customary eloquence, seductiveness and wit. Given the Government’s propensity to engage in deep cuts, I would not join him in proffering any sort of razor to them, Occam’s or otherwise. However, his argument is quite significantly flawed. First, he suggests the election of a completely separate body to administer part of the public services. That represents a rigidified fragmentation of local governance that takes us back in some respects to the 19th century of elected school boards and boards of that kind. That route does not commend itself to me or to many of us who are concerned to see local government strengthened and responsible for the strategic direction of affairs in a locality.
There are other significant arguments too. A single body constituted only of directly elected members would not include independent members, who have made a very significant contribution to the police service since they were introduced some years ago, as we have heard in earlier debates. There would also be great difficulty in securing a diversity of members, reflecting the ethnic and geographical diversity within police authorities. That would potentially weaken the effectiveness of the bodies that the noble Lord would seek to construct.
Furthermore, I cannot agree with him that it is unlikely that there would always be a degree of political balance. For example, in a region like the north-east, given the very limited number of members—11—that the noble Lord is proposing, in the case of the Northumbria force they would represent some 18 or 19 parliamentary constituencies. It is extremely likely that virtually all would be Labour members—if not all. That might have some appeal on this side of the House but it would not be recommended. Despite seeking to avoid the politicisation of the police force, one would see an authority constituted in such a way as to appear to reflect the views of one political party only. In other parts of the country there might be a similar situation with political parties of a different complexion. That is clearly something to be avoided.
The concern about politicisation of policing has been constantly referred to in your Lordships’ House on all sides and I fear that the noble Lord’s proposals tend—unintentionally—in that direction rather than otherwise. He relies on a democratic principle, and of course elections are important. But there is more than one way of construing the application of a democratic principle in the way in which a service of this kind is to be administered. If the majority of members of a police authority, as now, are elected councillors, they can claim legitimately that they are reflecting a democratic principle. They are not directly elected for that purpose only. That is a good thing because the police authorities have to relate to local government and take on board working relationships across a range of local services, which in their ordinary course of life as elected local councillors they will enjoy in any event. They are bringing that current experience to the position that they would hold. There are different ways of construing democratic principles. The noble Lord’s version, for the reasons that I have advanced, do not seem to fit the circumstances of this case and I hope that he will not press his amendment to the vote.
It might be argued that the noble Lord’s suggestion is preferable to that of a single police commissioner, which is arguably the case, but it is not in my view as good as relying on the proposals that have emanated from this side in the past, and which appear to have attracted a certain measure of support in the House, for an authority constituted, as now, of directly elected councillors serving their areas and of independent members. In my view, that is the best application of the democratic principle and secures also some of the other factors which should be taken into consideration. I do not expect the Minister to accept this amendment for different reasons from those which I have advanced but on this occasion she may find a degree of support, or at least acquiescence, which she might not otherwise gain over much of the rest of this Bill.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am sure that we are all indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, for allowing us to have an almost Second Reading debate on the principles of the Bill. I must say that I feel that his unduly modest fees are almost always worth it. As I say, this takes us back to principles. I remain deeply puzzled about the merits of the legislation and am yet to be convinced that there are so many problems in policing as to warrant such a dramatic and potentially very damaging shake-up in the way that our police service will be run.
I was very interested to receive an email this morning from Liberty in which it says that it believes that the Bill’s premise is fundamentally wrong and that the Bill, if implemented as proposed, will cause irreversible damage to the relationship between the police and their communities. Indeed that is so. The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, did not really address that point. I understand his point about democratic accountability, but surely he will recognise that there are huge risks in the politicisation of our police force. There are very few guarantees that the elected police and crime commissioners will not seek unduly to influence the operational behaviour of chief constables.
I remain concerned that the construct of the Bill still provides too few safeguards against that undue exercise of authority by the elected police commissioner. Although I disagree with the noble Lord’s amendment, it is interesting that he has raised issues of good corporate governance. This is the problem of the concept of corporate soles: individuals—the elected police and crime commissioner on the one hand, and the chief constable on the other—who have enormous powers without being subject to effective corporate governance. I am with the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, to the extent that it would be much better if a group of people were collectively responsible, rather than leaving it to an individual. We will come on to issues of corporate sole later today but I welcome the noble Lord’s attention to the issue now. He is right to do so.
Ultimately the question is whether adding on an elected police authority to an elected police and crime commissioner would risk far too much politicisation of our police force. As the noble Lord will be aware, when we were in government we looked at this issue and originally made proposals for partly elected police authorities. However, we stepped back from that partly because of a lack of support out in the community and partly because of the risk of politicisation. We remain of the view that this is not the right way to go. However, the noble Lord has done us a service by raising some of the issues surrounding the lack of corporate governance in the Government’s approach.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
My Lords, I have nothing but respect for the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, and for the certain merit that is involved in this amendment. However, I respectfully disagree with him in so far as it can be regarded as a full and complete solution. For many years England and Wales have been blessed with a system in which there is a generally accepted tripartite balance between the Home Office, on the one hand, and the chief constable and the police authority on the other. So far as I am aware, I do not believe that that tripartite balance, or indeed the system, has ever been spelt out in statute, and in many respects it may well be that that is its strength.
One might find that, over the decades, certain segments of that balance have grown more substantial and influential than others, but the balance remains. That balance imposes a duty to consider something that is central to the role of the chief constable, which is that it is the chief constable who is responsible for direction and control. Direction and control is already a well established statutory principle and will not in any way be materially affected by the Bill. It will remain exactly as it is at this moment, and a former Home Secretary in his place to my left is nodding in agreement. But what does direction and control mean? Too often over the past few weeks we in this House have equated direction and control with operational control, but it means much more than that. It means that a chief constable is entitled, in a professional way, to the independence to run the strategy of a particular police force unaffected by and untrammelled by any unprofessional interference, political or otherwise.
As I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, will remember, the rules are set out clearly in Lord Denning’s judgment in 1968 in R v Blackburn. Those principles have stood the test of time. Therefore, although the amendment proposed by the noble Lord is probably an improvement on what was originally set out in the Bill, I still believe that both are misconceived. I am prepared to accept that the misconception in both cases, by the Government and by the noble Lord, comes from the best of motives, which is to try to strengthen the segment of public control that relates to the tripartite balance. However, I still think that this is the wrong way.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
If the Minister wishes to read other documentation prior to the next stage of this legislation I could do little better than to commend some of the policies that were developed by the noble Lord, Lord Howard—who is in his place—during the changes that he made to the legislation, not least, I think he would agree, the changes that he made to cope with too much party political dominance over what was happening to the police service. He finely judged how to ensure independence within the tripartite system. Were the noble Baroness to read the whole proceedings and the issues that the noble Lord took through, she would agree that he made some very fine judgments.
Baroness Browning
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who contributed to this debate. I am particularly grateful to my noble friend Lord Carlile of Berriew, in his second attempt to provide for stronger democratic accountability within all police authorities. His amendments would provide for a police authority based on the current model to be directly elected by the public. Once elected to the authority, its members would be required to elect a chair from among themselves. I am grateful that my noble friend continues to advocate the need for stronger democracy and accountability to be inserted into the current governance regime within England and Wales. I also know that he speaks with significant authority; as we heard, he has advised both police authorities and chief constables.
I have reflected on his remarks in Committee and compared them with the Government’s proposal that the public should be represented by a single directly elected individual. Both models would provide for an election involving the public, unlike the current police commission model put forward in Clause 2 of the revised Bill before us today. The Government and my noble friend are united in our desire to empower the public and to provide for strong accountability for each force area chief constable, with constructive and challenging oversight of the police force.
While the Government's model would provide for a single directly elected PCC who would be a strong voice for the concerns of the communities that they and their local police force serve, my noble friend's model would insert an intermediate stage—namely the election of the police authority—which I would argue distances the public from the ultimate decision-maker.
Crucially for the public and the Government, the PCC must be able to turn the concerns of the general public into action by working constructively with their chief constable to ensure that the police service adapts, responds and deals effectively with the unique challenges that face each police force daily. That process would only be obstructed by the cumbersome decision-making that the committee would interpose as a result of the involvement of a police authority. Although my noble friend’s amendments seek to take a step forward, the effect would be that we retained the status quo when it came to making those crucial decisions. Accountability for those decisions would be removed from a single person and vested in an authority yet again.
A PCC selected from among the members of a police authority would be heavily constrained by the demands and interests of their fellow elected committee members. A PCC elected in that way might be swayed to side with those on the committee who have voted him or her into office, rather than having the interests of the whole force area at the forefront of their decision-making. The PCC will certainly not have the strong personal mandate that would come from direct election as an individual under the Government's model.
I referred in Committee to the Home Secretary budgeting for and negotiating the cost of this model with the Treasury. The Government are committed to ensuring that the cost of establishing a full-time, dedicated PCC within each force area does not exceed the current total cost of police authorities plus the additional cost of electing the PCC. However, to increase the cost of elections to accommodate electing not one individual to office but 17 within 41 forces outside London would be untenable.
In addition, to have to pay for a full-time PCC on top of the costs of maintaining current police authority structures and allowances incurred by the current police authority membership would not be justifiable to the general public. To tweak the current system and elect the entire membership would not solve the problem in hand.
The very reason that we are introducing police and crime commissioners is to inject much needed democratic accountability into policing, with the public having a much greater say in how their streets are policed. It is not our intention to bind the hands of the police and crime commissioner by requiring all decisions to be made through a local committee, whether elected at significant public expense or not.
My noble friend indicated in his closing remarks that he did not expect me to agree to his amendments and I am not going to disappoint him this afternoon. I cannot accept his amendment and I therefore respectfully ask him to withdraw it.
Lord Carlile of Berriew
My Lords, I am very grateful for the customarily courteous spirit in which this debate has been conducted. It has been a fine illustration of the law of unintended consequences. Sitting behind my noble friend Lord Howard of Lympne, I watched the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, casting a halo like a frisbee across the Chamber, and I now see it metaphorically sitting above my noble friend’s pate.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton
My Lords, for the record, I think the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Lympne, would agree that I never ever attributed sainthood to him; I just admitted that sometimes he was right.
Lord Carlile of Berriew
I hope my noble friend will excuse me if I say that he has never been a particularly modest man, so he probably saw it as a little bit of sainthood flying across the Chamber. It takes one to know one.
I thank the Minister for the spirit in which she responded to this debate. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, suggested that I might have shown three qualities—eloquence, wit and seduction. I will not say which one I failed on this afternoon but plainly it is at least one of them although not, I hope, all three.
As a Liberal—I use that term with a capital L and without any suffixes—I regret that the Labour Party still appears wedded to a form of democracy that I find strange; what I call the democratic principle of appointment. I do not believe there is anything in the argument that people who are directly elected will perform less independently than those who have been appointed. One of the things that elected people experience, as all my noble friends who were Members of another place know, is a great deal of pressure from their electorates. That applies to the Minister, too, who was a distinguished Member of the other place. I am dubious about that argument.
As to the likelihood of electing a mere slate of party hacks, I simply ask the noble Lord—this might not be a commendation but just a fact—to look at Middlesbrough, Hartlepool and Doncaster. He will see that elections are not always as predictable as you think if they involve a specific issue.
I simply and kindly remind my much admired friend the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, that in the days when he was a Labour MP for a West Wales seat, the appointment of Labour councillors to police authorities had about as much to do with democracy as the popping of a champagne cork and was seen as something of a scandal from time to time throughout Wales. I therefore do not accept that the tripartite principle of which he spoke has always been an illustration of good practice.
However, I recognise when I have lost a case. I can see that it would be unhelpful to the House to press this amendment to a Division. Some valuable issues have been raised and I beg leave, on that basis, to withdraw my amendment.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
“( ) Police and crime commissioners must exercise their functions under this Part in accordance with the memorandum of understanding issued by the Secretary of State under section (Memorandum of understanding: operational independence).”
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, Amendment 1A and the two other amendments in this group come to an important matter that goes to the heart of the Bill: the relationship between the elected police and crime commissioner and the chief constable. Whatever one’s view of the Government’s proposals, no noble Lord will underestimate the importance of this relationship or of ensuring that it is appropriate, proper and constructive.
The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, who is now not in his place, spoke eloquently about the meaning of direction and control of a police force under a chief constable. We know that there are inevitable tensions between police authorities and chief constables. That is healthy and entirely proper. The risk is if an unhealthy tension is created. On the one hand, there is the risk that an elected police and crime commissioner—with clearly more authority from being elected—will seek to interfere unduly in the performance of the duties of the chief constable. Equally, I am sure that some chief constables might resist the proper use of the powers of the police and crime commissioner and seek to keep them away from discussion on issues that are perfectly legitimate.
The relationship between the PCC and the chief constable is very important. The Minister has kindly shared with us some of the discussions and draft papers that lie behind the production of a draft protocol or memorandum of understanding between the chief constable and the police and crime commissioner. I am grateful for that. When we discussed this matter in Committee, I asked whether such a memorandum of understanding or protocol should be placed on a statutory footing. The Minister accepted that this was an important matter and agreed to consider it and come back to the House at a later stage. I would be interested in her response.
I fully accept the point made by a number of noble Lords that if chief constables and police and crime commissioners have to have recourse to a document to interpret whether a particular behaviour is in accordance with the memorandum of understanding or protocol, the relationship has already broken down. It is rather like the partnership agreement between general practitioners. Once they get that out of the safe, they have reached a stage where a break-up is only too likely. However, a protocol or memorandum of understanding provides at the very least a backcloth to this important relationship. Even if it does not have to be taken out of the drawer, both the chief constable and the police and crime commissioner will be aware of its existence and the principles that it seeks to underpin. Given the importance of that protocol or memorandum of understanding, I would have thought that it might have benefitted from having a statutory basis. That would give it the important signal of parliamentary legitimacy, and would be helpful in setting up the relationship as constructively as possible. I hope the noble Baroness will be able to come back with a positive response. I beg to move.
Lord Howard of Lympne
My Lords, may I take this early opportunity to thank the noble Baroness, Lady Farrington, in her absence, for immediately withdrawing any suggestion that she sought to confer a halo upon me? I am not sure I can be quite so fulsome in my comments on the remarks of my noble friend Lord Carlile, but there we are.
I have observed with a great deal of amusement the numerous accolades, including those from the lips of the noble Baroness earlier this afternoon, which I gather have been often repeated during the course of proceedings in this Bill—usually, alas, in my unavoidable absence—on my proposals nearly 20 years ago, which form the basis of the current provisions and current constitution of police authorities. I do not think that anyone has yet drawn attention to the fact that when I brought forward those proposals they were bitterly opposed by your Lordships and your Lordships’ predecessors. To listen to the words that have been expressed on them now, anyone would think that they had been welcomed with open arms by your Lordships and seen by those on all sides of the argument as a long-awaited answer to the problem.
Lord Harris of Haringey
I thank the noble Lord for giving way. Is it not the case that while his additional proposals were deeply controversial—I think he had some master plan for lord lieutenants of counties assisting in the process of appointing independent members—it was when they had been improved by your Lordships' House that we reached the eventual outcome that we are all so in favour of?
Lord Howard of Lympne
Convenient though that rewriting of history is for the noble Lord’s arguments, it is very far from the case. He need look no further than the recently published memoirs of my noble friend Lord Ferrers to see that your Lordships remained obdurate, even when I was prepared to amend my original proposals. If my recollection is correct, it was only after a protracted game of ping-pong that I was eventually able to get my proposals on to the statute book in the face of persistent and continued opposition from your Lordships' House. But that is ancient history. I wanted to put the record straight.
The fact is that when those proposals found their way on to the statute book I was very hopeful that they would provide the basis for strong police authorities who would carry out the functions, which I am sure we would all want them to carry out, and who would be recognised in the areas that they served as the voice of the public in relation to policing. Alas, despite the splendid efforts of many of those who have served with distinction on police authorities during the nearly two decades that have passed since those proposals became law, my expectations have been disappointed. The proposals that have been put in place have not led to the kind of police authorities that I hoped they would. It is because of that that I am an enthusiastic supporter of these proposals. Indeed, I do not want to embarrass my noble friend on the Front Bench, but I think that in some ways I can claim to be their author, although it will not do me much good in the eyes of your Lordships, and I remain an enthusiastic supporter of them.
As to this particular amendment and the proposal put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, there is no difference between the term “direction and control” used in the protocol and the term used in existing legislation. That is the answer to the point made a few moments ago by the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan. The question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is whether the protocol should become statutory. We know that ACPO has said—I think absolutely rightly—that it would be wrong to seek to define operational independence in the statute. If you gave the protocol statutory force, you would in effect arrive at a statutory definition of operational control. That would be a mistake for the reasons given by ACPO. It is for that reason that I oppose the amendment proposed by the noble Lord.
Lord Condon
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has served us well by this amendment. The arguments remain finely balanced as to whether or not the protocol or memorandum of understanding should have a statutory footing. Having been privileged to be in some of the earlier discussions about whether there was indeed a need for a protocol at all, the journey has been a very interesting, and very supportive, iterative process. Certainly in the meetings that I have been privileged to attend, there has been an acceptance on the Government’s side that a document of this nature or something like it was necessary to reassure and to confidence-build around operational independence and the legacy of operational independence, which is so important to the model of British policing. We have now reached decision point: should it have statutory footing or not?
My own journey on this route was that I was hopeful that as much as possible that came out of these discussions should be in the Bill. Whether it should be in the Bill in penny packets, at the relevant point, or in one comprehensive document of a protocol or a memorandum of understanding is a finely balanced question. However, I accept that ACPO is concerned that if it has a statutory footing, a once and for ever attempt to define operational independence will be a formidable task. The arguments are very finely balanced and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, does a service by raising this. If it is pushed to a Division, I am still uncertain which way I will vote and I look forward to further discussion. It is so important but it is very finely balanced, and the arguments on both sides are very strong.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Howard, and the noble Lord who has just spoken both infer that the purpose of the amendment is to put a memorandum of understanding into the Bill. My interpretation of it is not that but that this amendment, if adopted, would require there to be a memorandum of understanding and commissioners would have to exercise their functions under it. However, the memorandum itself would be drawn up and issued separately and would be capable of being amended from time to time in the light of changing circumstances. The actual memorandum would not be in the Bill, merely the effect of one. It would obviously be helpful to discuss the first of such memoranda, but it would not actually be incorporated into the Bill when finally enacted.
Lord Dear
My Lords, I do not speak in favour of this amendment. We are probably dancing on the head of a pin. It seems we all agree that a protocol or a memorandum of understanding is vital. It is the form that it will take that is a matter of debate for us today and, perhaps, in further stages of this procedure. It seems that one can hardly discuss the detail of this while it is still in draft. We are promised the draft before the full stage is passed in your Lordships’ House, but I find that a difficulty in itself.
My main concern is that by putting it into the Bill or having it standing part and parcel alongside the Bill with statutory force, it would become too prescriptive. This Bill is already in grave danger of being too prescriptive on a number of issues. One has to leave things such as this to the good nature, good judgment and experience of those who will be handling those issues, and while I support the protocol we should not necessarily go so far as to give it statutory authority.
I would say in passing that although ACPO has quite wisely kept well away from making political statements about this Bill—its fingers were burned two or three years ago by getting too closely involved in politics, and it is wise to keep out of this at the moment—I would be surprised if chief constables and chief officers of police would want to see a protocol bound into such an Act. I would think that they would want to operate against a background of advice that can be amended in the light of experience. That is my view, not theirs; I am not in a position to speak for them but that is how I would expect them to react.
On a small point of detail in Amendment 4B, I noticed that the Central Motorway Police Group is included in a group of police authorities. I ask those who tabled the amendment, if they take it to a vote, to check whether the Central Motorway Police Group now has the same statutory basis as a police force. When it was set up it was subject to a collaboration agreement. To the best of my understanding it is still subject to such an agreement, which is very different from the statutory basis that other forces enjoy. It is a small point of which I ask noble Lords to take note. I do not support the amendment.
Lord Shipley
My Lords, I shall make two comments on quite a fundamental matter. First, I am clear that there needs to be a memorandum of understanding. I am less clear about whether it needs to have statutory force. However, the public will expect to understand what the powers of a chief constable and a commissioner are when they are being asked to vote for a police and crime commissioner. That seems a basic point; the public must have a clear understanding of the two roles. Unless this is written down in the form of a memorandum of understanding, it will be difficult for them to do so.
Secondly, there is also an operational aspect to this. Amendment 4A asks in particular,
“how the operational independence of chief constables and police forces will be protected”.
This relates to the joining point between the operational independence of the chief constable and the power of the police and crime commissioner over both the budget and the annual plan. In other words, the chief constable is to be required to undertake, with operational independence, the work in a plan that was agreed by the police and crime commissioner. The budget for that plan will be agreed by the commissioner and supplied to the chief constable. There is a clear joining point that must be bridged here. There is a grave danger that there will be operational interference by the police and crime commissioner when that commissioner feels that the budget and plan that he or she created is not being implemented. Unless this is clearly written down in the form of a memorandum of understanding, that operational independence will not be clear to anyone and trouble will ensue.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, we should not get too carried away over what this memorandum will do. My noble friend Lord Hunt quoted some remarks that I made when I said that if the memorandum is referred to more than twice in any interaction between a commissioner and a chief officer of police, it will look as though the relationship between the two has irredeemably broken down. It will be too late by that stage. The draft of the memorandum that has finally emerged from the Home Office is helpful in setting these things out. Its value lies in striking a balance between the legitimate role—to question, challenge, set an overall strategy and direction and so on—of those who hold the police to account and the operational professional decision-making that chief officers of police must exercise all the time. It is helpful to have that in the background to avoid the mavericks and to put constraints on those who might press a matter far beyond where any of us in your Lordships’ House, or any other sensible people, might see this balance being struck.
However, we should not see this as some magic wand that will solve all the problems and issues that might arise from these new systems of governance. Therefore, it is helpful to have the memorandum. It would be helpful, as my noble friend suggests, for there to be reference to it in the Bill. However, we should not believe that it is a magic wand. It will not prevent circumstances in which chief officers of police find that they have lost the confidence of those who are responsible for their governance. Those individuals, when they have lost that confidence, will in effect be unable to continue. This measure does not prevent that, but it draws some lines in the sand for what are or are not acceptable areas in which those responsible for oversight and governance should get involved.
In Committee, I think I mentioned my experience of being told firmly that the policing of the Notting Hill carnival was entirely an operational matter in which it was inappropriate for the police authority, as it then was, to be involved. I do not accept that advice and did not at the time because this is a major policing decision that impacts fundamentally on the relationship between the police and the community and involves substantial expenditure of resources. However, that was not the same as a chair of a police authority in this case—it could be an elected police and crime commissioner—saying, “I am quite clear that you should close such and such a road”. However, I can see that it is helpful to have set down somewhere something that reminds people that there are lines that you should not cross and that it is not appropriate, when you are responsible for oversight and governance, to say, “In this investigation you should arrest this person or not arrest that person”. We all accept that, but perhaps, just occasionally, some people will need to be reminded of that.
Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington
My Lords, like my noble friend Lord Condon, I have wavered over whether this measure should be included on the face of the Bill or should be referred to. Having listened to conversations and today’s debate, I suspect that it is better for the measure not to be on the face of the Bill but to be referred to. There is absolutely no doubt whatever that if anyone gets to the stage of having to refer to the protocols to enforce their operational independence, that chief constable, chief officer or commissioner should not be where he is because he will have already gone through a process and lost the confidence of the police authority or the police and crime commissioner. This has been an interesting journey for me, having said at one stage that the measure should be on the face of the Bill, and then coming to the conclusion that it should not. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, and others have said, there has to be reference to it because there has to be a backstop at some stage and insurance as regards issues that may relate to mavericks, whether they be chief constables or police commissioners. At the end of the day, there have to be those safeguards.
Baroness Browning
My Lords, I am very grateful for the contributions made to the debate. The amendments tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Hunt, Lord Rosser and Lord Stevenson, reflect those that were laid in Committee and seek to protect the operational independence of chief police officers by placing a specific duty on the face of the Bill for each police and crime commissioner to exercise their functions in accordance with a memorandum of understanding issued by the Secretary of State.
During the Committee I undertook to invite noble Lords from all sides of the House to discuss the Government's draft protocol, which I had placed in your Lordships’ Library prior to commencing our Committee debate. I am very grateful to noble Lords for their attendance at that meeting and for the contribution which they made, which was extremely constructive. The meeting took place on 21 June. I take this opportunity to report back to the House on what was discussed with the sole intention of making clear that the Government remain very much in listening mode as we continue to work with ACPO, the APA and the Association of Police Authority Chief Executives on the draft of that document. As has already been pointed out, this is still a document in draft.
I must make it clear at the outset that until the Government finalise their consultation on the draft document, we are still open to considering the merits of placing the document on a legal footing. I have taken note of the views expressed across the House today. Some noble Lords are not quite decided, some have clearly taken a certain position and others have moved from one position to another. That signifies very clearly the complexity of this matter and, most importantly, the need to get it absolutely right. I hope that the House, particularly the noble Lords who have tabled these amendments, will understand that it is something that we are particularly keen not to rush and that we are still in listening mode on this.
I would also like to make clear that it became rapidly apparent to me during our discussion that we must stop viewing the new PCC policing governance model through the eyes of the existing arrangements, especially when discussing financial matters and budget responsibilities. During the meeting, a wide-ranging discussion was held as to whether the protocol should be placed on a statutory footing in secondary legislation or in the Bill. Those are the two options, and although secondary legislation has not been mentioned during today’s debate, it is clearly an option. I am particularly grateful for the professional insight that the noble Lords, Lord Condon and Lord Stevens, contributed and offered to the group. There is much further consideration to be given as to the level of detail required in the draft document. I have taken away their views and relayed them to my officials, who, I can assure this House, intend to feed back those views to the protocol working group when it meets later this month.
However, to place in the Bill the entire document as currently drafted will be a step too far. I hope that that will reassure particularly my noble friend Lord Howard of Lympne and other noble friends who said that they would be concerned if that were to be the case, and that it may undermine previous case law and common law. Those facts also have to be taken into account.
I know that ACPO has told the Government that it does not want any definition of operational independence to be placed in the Bill, for reasons that I am sure will be obvious to everyone. However, ACPO has said that it would like the protocol to be given some sort of legislative footing, and the Government remain open to this suggestion. I realise that we are at Report stage but work remains to be done on this issue. It is essential that we get the balance exactly right, as noble Lords have indicated. There is still time within the proceedings on the Bill in this House to make that judgment in time.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My understanding is that the noble Baroness is saying that we should return to this at Third Reading, and that that is likely to be less than three weeks away. However, as currently planned, it will not be possible to achieve Royal Assent before the Summer Recess. Under those circumstances—and the Government might wish to take this away—perhaps Third Reading could take place in September. That will not delay the overall timetable more than it is already delayed, but it would allow more time for consideration of this matter and some other matters that probably require a lot more work before the Bill finally receives Royal Assent.
Baroness Browning
I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Harris. I am not one of the business managers in this House. I sometimes wish that I had more say in these matters, as I am sure most Front-Benchers do from time to time, but I shall have to leave with the business managers the timing of the various stages of finalising the Bill. However, I hope that the House will be reassured—particularly noble Lords who tabled these amendments—that this is a working document. We are still considering the most appropriate way in which to involve the protocol in the Bill, but I hope that I have provided assurances to those who think we might make a hasty decision that would undermine the way in which the independence of policing has been seen hitherto. On that basis, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her very constructive response and for her work in making the draft protocol available. I am also grateful for the input that noble Lords have been able to provide. Let me make it clear that I am not seeking to put into the Bill the details of the memorandum. I absolutely agree with the ACPO position, which is that a reference to the memorandum is needed. I had hoped that my amendment, imperfect as it is, pointed in the direction of how that might be done.
As my noble friend Lord Harris said, having some statutory basis for the memorandum would indicate to the police and crime commissioner and the chief constable that there was a framework in which one would expect them to operate. As the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, said, it would be a clear message to the public, in relation to the character of the people that they elected as police and crime commissioners, that they would be expected to operate within a clearly established framework. Some statutory recognition of that would be helpful.
The rules on what one can bring back at Third Reading have become ever tighter. I am happy to withdraw my amendment on the basis and understanding that I will bring it back on Third Reading. That will give the Government a little time to give further reflection to it. If the business managers—the usual channels—were minded to take the advice of my noble friend, I, for one, would not object.
Baroness Browning
“(h) the exercise of duties in relation to the safeguarding of children and the promotion of child welfare that are imposed on the chief constable by sections 10 and 11 of the Children Act 2004”.
Lord Laming
My Lords, may I explain? It is unusual for a member of the Cross Benches to move a government amendment—
Baroness Browning
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord and I certainly look forward to hearing what he has to say.
Amendments 2 and 17 would add the relevant provisions of the Children Act 2004 to the list of duties in respect of which the police and crime commissioner, or the Mayor's Office for Policing and Crime, should hold the chief constable or Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis to account. I am indebted to the noble Lord, Lord Laming, for putting his name to Amendment 2.
Naturally, all of us want the police to comply with all statutory duties that apply to them. Indeed, Clause 1(7) already provides that the PCC is to hold chief constables to account for the exercise of all the functions. Clause 1(8), on the other hand, is a list of matters for which PCCs in particular hold chief constables to account. The purpose is to highlight matters of particular importance which we would say merit special attention. The same provisions apply under Clause 4(7) and (8) respectively for London.
Deciding what should be included in a list such as this is necessarily subjective. What was in the Bill on its introduction represented the Government's best efforts. That said, the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, presented a compelling argument, supported by the noble Lord, Lord Laming, for the inclusion of the Children Act 2004 in the list. The Government have listened on that point and agree that—given the occurrence of some high-profile deaths of children—police officers, PCCs and MOPC should be in no doubt about the statutory duty of the police to safeguard children and promote their welfare. That includes in formulating policing strategy, setting budgets, forming effective partnerships and in a constable’s execution of day-to-day operations. The Government agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, and the noble Lord, Lord Laming, that that is an important addition to the list of duties for which the police and crime commissioner should hold the chief constable to account in particular. I beg to move.
Lord Laming
I apologise for my enthusiasm. I did not want to steal the Minister’s thunder. On the contrary, I wanted to explain to the House that I put my name to the amendment, a government amendment—it may be unusual for a Cross-Bencher to do that—because I wanted to thank her for the thought that she has given to these matters. I pay tribute to her for her willingness to meet us and to consider how best the care of children should be seen to be a priority of police and crime commissioners and chief constables in future.
I will not rehearse the points made at earlier stages, because I am sure that Members of this House have a full understanding of the need for the police services to take seriously their wider responsibilities for the safety and well-being of children and young people, be it the local community officer, the specialist detective, the commander or the chief constable or police and crime commissioner. All those people throughout the service have a unique responsibility to fulfil their duties and to co-operate with the other key services in this area of work.
This legislation rightly has the title “Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill”. In my view—and, I am sure, the view of many of your Lordships—it would be a lost opportunity if we did not put into the Bill the responsibilities that police forces up and down the country carry in this area of work. Indeed, the police have carried out a huge amount of development in recent years, and I suspect that the Metropolitan Police child protection teams are among the best in the world. Not only are they a credit to this country but they have much to teach other countries in the field of child abuse, neglect, exploitation and matters such as the abduction and trafficking of children and young people. It seems to me—and, I know, to other Members of your Lordships’ House—that this priority in police services should be clearly recognised. I simply end as I began by saying to the House that the Minister has kindly allowed me to share my thoughts with her, and therefore I know a little of the hard work that she has put in to ensure that this happens. I am delighted about Amendment 2 and, because of my limited vocabulary, positively thrilled about Amendment 17.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, I am sorry to strike a slightly different note on this matter but I should like to ask the Minister a question or two. The list in the Bill to which she referred as “unamended” is a list of procedural matters relating to how the chief constable is to undertake his or her duties, rather than the subject of those duties. We debated this on a different amendment at the previous stage. I do not for an instant suggest that the matters to which the Minister and the noble Lord have referred are unimportant—they are of huge importance—but my concern is about singling them out. I used the example of trafficking adults as well as children—a matter which I think is appropriate for the strategic policing requirement, dealt with later in the Bill. My concern and my question to the Minister is whether singling out this subject in some way diminishes the responsibility that the chief constable has to exercise every other duty imposed on him or her by legislation. It seems to raise issues when one part of the very wide and varied responsibilities of the chief constable is included in a list which is qualitatively different. As I said, that is not for a moment to suggest that child protection is not important—of course it is —but I merely question how it is dealt with in legislation.
Lord Laming
My Lords, does the noble Baroness agree that many, many crime Bills have been taken through this House? Over the years, the Home Office has been remarkably good at producing Bills of this kind. However, Parliament has also produced a range of very important children Acts, and those Acts need to be enshrined in developing legislation.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, Parliament has indeed produced a lot of Acts and, in my view, one of the problems is repeating bits of legislation time and again. A piece of legislation should be good enough to stand on its own and not require repetition or reference in other legislation.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I was very interested in the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. She will know that lists are often proposed in amendments, not least from her own Benches. If you list certain duties and responsibilities, there is always the problem that you might detract from other important duties and responsibilities. One has to use one's judgment. We certainly support the government amendments and I am sure that the noble Baroness will be able to confirm that, by listing the Children Act matters in the way that the Government propose, that does not exclude many other important matters from the chief constable's responsibilities.
I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Laming, on his success in persuading the Government today to bring forward this amendment. This is a significant day for him as he has been elected Convenor of the Cross Benches. I wish him future success in bringing forward further amendments to which the Government will no doubt respond.
I have one question for the noble Baroness. When we debated this matter in Committee under a number of amendments, at col. 1428, the debate concerned the Children Act and the Human Rights Act. I wondered whether there was a reason why the Government have brought forward an amendment in relation to the Children Act but not in relation to the Human Rights Act. Referring to the question of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, does focusing on the Children Act detract from responsibilities under the Human Rights Act?
Baroness Browning
My Lords, I am very grateful for all contributions to this debate and particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Laming, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, for having introduced this matter in the first place.
On the last point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, in no way does this detract from the human rights requirement that the chief constable must keep in focus. I have been very cautious because, once one starts a list, one can add to it. I seek to reassure my noble friend Lady Hamwee that we considered the points that she made in Committee about singling out pieces of legislation. That is why we have put the Children Act into the Bill as a particular reference. We felt that was a measured response. As we were putting one piece of legislation in the list of specific functions that the chief constable must consider, we did not want to feel that in some way we were starting a new list. I shall not read it out, but in Clause 1(8) of the original Bill, there is a list of specific functions that the chief constable must take into account. As the issue of children's safety is so important, we felt that it stood out head and shoulders above others and that it should be on the face of the Bill. We agreed to make this amendment for that reason. This has been a reflective part of the Bill to consider, and a very important part. I am grateful for the support given to it across the House.
Lord Harris of Haringey
“( ) Each police and crime commissioner shall appoint a non-executive board of between four and seven members.
( ) Such non-executive boards shall work with the police and crime commissioners to ensure good governance of—
(a) financial;(b) staff; and(c) equality;matters and to support police and crime commissioners in respect of their functions.( ) Police and crime commissioners may make such arrangements as they see necessary to remunerate and reimburse expenses incurred by members of such non-executive boards.
( ) Appointments to and remuneration and expenses arrangements for such non-executive boards shall be subject to approval by the relevant police and crime panel.”
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment 20. There has been considerable concern about the central principle of the Bill, the idea of a single, directly elected individual who is to be responsible for the oversight and control of the police service. That is why I have tabled Amendment 3. Amendment 20 applies similar provisions to the Mayor's Office for Policing and Crime.
At Second Reading and in Committee, there were widely held concerns about the concept of a single individual with this very strong responsibility for policing matters. The vote in Committee essentially removed from the Bill the principle of police and crime commissioners. The Committee voted in that way because of the fear of having a single individual with responsibility for such an important area of public life, an area where the police have such powerful responsibilities over the liberty of the citizens of this country and over the way in which the citizens of this country operate. That is the core of the concerns that have been expressed from many corners of your Lordships' House.
You could argue that we have solved the problem. By the amendment proposed by the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, and agreed in Committee, there will not be a single directly elected individual. However, I am mindful of what the Minister said repeatedly in Committee—that the Government are determined to reinstate that principle. If the Minister wants to stand up and tell me that the Government have changed their mind and have suddenly realised that the House of Lords was right on this point, I might consider withdrawing this amendment, but if, as seems likely, the Government intend to reverse the House of Lords position on this and bring back to this House proposals for a single individual with those extraordinary powers over policing and with the police having such extraordinary powers over the citizen, we need something that looks at these matters. In fact, I submit that even if the Government were to accept the position taken by the House of Lords in Committee, there would still be value in having non-executive members around the police and crime commission to bring to the deliberations of the commission expertise and independent-minded judgment. However, given that the Government intend to reverse that position, this amendment is essential.
Amendment 20 relates to the position in London. There are no changes, so far, to the position in London. We will have a single elected individual—the Mayor of London—who will delegate some of his functions to the deputy mayor for policing and crime.
In the circumstances in which we are to have single individuals with these responsibilities, there has to be a governance structure around them. I think there is consensus among your Lordships about the value of a collegiate approach and robust and strong governance. The amendment is not about going back to police authorities. It is not about creating some new bureaucratic structure. It is not even about going to the appointed boards that the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, coruscated earlier in our discussions today. It is about good governance. It is about making sure that decisions are taken properly and transparently so that these single individuals cannot be subjected to criticism that they have acted in a wilful or inappropriate way. It says that on key financial matters, key personnel matters and on matters perhaps relating to equalities, they must act with the support of a group of non-executives who would be appointed for this purpose.
Non-executives appointed in the way that I have suggested in my amendment would provide the public with an assurance that good governance was being followed. It would provide a mechanism by which you could make sure that those decisions were taken in a sound and proper way. It would also deal with what I suspect will be one of the issues. If you look forward to May 2012, when the Government hope that the first directly elected police commissioners will be elected, you will have elected individuals with an enormous personal mandate. The only person in the country with a larger personal mandate—I do not want to get into double entendres here—will be the Mayor of London. They will be the biggest political beasts in their regions. The elected police and crime commissioner for the West Midlands will be chosen by an electorate of more than 2 million people and will have a bigger mandate than a directly elected mayor of Birmingham, should such a creature come to exist following the passage of the Localism Bill. Those individuals may think that they can walk on water, I do not know. I hesitate to make such a remark in the presence of the Bishops’ Bench. However, we are back to the principle of being reminded that you are human, the way that Roman emperors had to have someone around them just to remind them of their human responsibilities.
Lord Howard of Lympne
My Lords, first, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Harris, on the sense of realism which infused his contribution to your Lordships’ debate. He recognised that we are likely to see elected police commissioners in place next year and that the Government are likely to reverse the amendment put forward by my noble friend Lady Harris. I rise with a degree of reluctance to oppose this amendment, not only because it is proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Harris, with whom I had many enjoyable disputes many years ago, even long before I was Home Secretary. It was always a great pleasure to see him across the table when we were negotiating.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, I remember attending the shortest ministerial meeting I had with the noble Lord when we were allowed just seven minutes to consider the matter.
Lord Howard of Lympne
There were many other much longer meetings. The noble Lord talked about the characteristics of Roman emperors. When I faced him across the negotiating table, it always seemed to me that he took upon himself many of the attributes of Roman emperors—he still perhaps to some extent does so today—and therefore greatly adorns the contributions which he makes to your Lordships’ House. I am even more reluctant to oppose the amendment because it is also supported by the noble Lord, Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington. I did not sit across the table from the noble Lord and negotiate with him. I had the great pleasure of working very closely with him when I had the privilege of holding the office of Home Secretary. I have enormous respect for his views and it is therefore with particular diffidence that I oppose this amendment.
My question is: what would the board of non-executives do which the panel would not do? The police and crime panel is particularly established by the provisions of this Bill to scrutinise and advise the police and crime commissioner. I repeat that it is established to advise the police and crime commissioner. What is the function of non-executives but to advise the police and crime commissioner? Do we really want to provide by statute a cumbersome bureaucratic panoply of organisations to perform the functions set out in the Bill?
We are proposing to have the police and crime commissioner, which I fully support, and the police and crime panel, precisely to provide the strong and robust governance arrangements which the noble Lord, Lord Harris, is so keen to see introduced. I share his view that it is important to have good and strong governance arrangements but that is what the police and crime panel would provide. To have this non-executive board in addition would at best be duplication of functions and, at worst, confusion and a proliferation of bureaucracy, which I suggest is the last thing that your Lordships should be seeking to foist upon the new arrangements provided by the Bill.
Therefore, despite my long and happy memories of my negotiations with the noble Lord, Lord Harris, and my enormous respect for the noble Lord, Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington, I would respectfully advise your Lordships to reject this amendment.
Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington
My Lords, I support the amendment. Far be it from me to disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Lympne, who I have said publicly I believe to have been one of the most successful Home Secretaries during my time in policing and beyond, but on this occasion I have to disagree with him. Perhaps I may take noble Lords back to the setting up of the Metropolitan Police Authority, along with the London Assembly and the new appointment of the Mayor of London. A year before that, with the agreement of Paul Condon, the commissioner when I was the deputy commissioner, we set up a committee. It consisted of various people from the Home Office, and indeed the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, was a member. We thrashed through and gradually teased out a new structure for London. It was going to be extremely complicated and difficult to bring in. It had a conflict of interest that involved the national responsibilities of the Metropolitan Police, and specifically the commissioner, and it had to take account of the new London Assembly, the Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, and not least the police authority itself, before which the commissioner would appear on a regular basis—at least once a month.
Part of the discussions related to that was the independent elements necessary to ensure proper governance, independence and expert advice. Going back to some of the excellent things introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Lympne, as Home Secretary, one of those was the independence of the police authority and a widening of its knowledge, expertise, delivery and holding the chief constable to account. I believe it is necessary to have in place a process that can be dealt with by a non-executive director in relation to the new set-up with police commissioners and their panels. Perhaps I may take noble Lords through the three reasons for that process.
Financial decision-making and the creation of a corporation sole will be responsible for major decisions such as the placement of contracts, financial allocation and a number of other serious financial matters, including audit. It is imperative that within the police panel and outside of the official responsibilities of the Chief Constable and Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, there is expert independence in terms of advice and good governance. The second reason is staffing. Again, it is important that the approach taken is that of best practice. Many noble Lords are involved in private business and they know that non-executive directorships constitute best practice in terms of good governance, independent advice, and ensuring that the vision of the company they are involved with is taken forward. If we are going down the line of corporation sole in relation to police commissioners and their panels, surely it is good governance, common sense and best practice to ensure that there is an element of non-executive directorship on the panel.
The third but by no means the least reason is that of equality of opportunity and diversity. The contribution made by a collective as opposed to an individual should always be noted in relation to what is on occasion an extremely difficult matter. The noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, will know, as others on the Metropolitan Police Authority and the police assembly of the time will know, that on a number of occasions during the implementation of the Lawrence report—my deputy commissioner, the noble Lord, Lord Blair, was part of this—the implications of driving forward and turning the recommendations into action needed individual expertise from independent members of the Metropolitan Police Authority, members of which would on occasion come to see me or the noble Lord, Lord Blair, individually. To throw away that is to throw away extraordinary expertise which is necessary in the world in which we now live.
Lord Beecham
Bearing in mind the rather surprising assertion of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, who is not now in his place, that this amendment originates from what he would describe as the dark days of old Labour, would the noble Lord who has subscribed to it care to say whether he is now, or has ever been, a card-carrying member of the Labour Party?
Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington
Certainly not. The two most successful Home Secretaries that I know of in history is the one who is sitting opposite, the noble Lord, Lord Howard, and the second—you would never get the name out of me if you tricked me—was Jack Straw. He of course would be represented in Labour. How about that for an apolitical comment?
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, I was going to go back to the Roman Empire. With all this talk about Roman emperors, I wondered whether I should claim for myself the role of Caesar’s wife, but I think I ought to leave that for the Minister.
I have two amendments in this group and was very persuaded by arguments made at the previous stage by noble Lords who spoke in support of the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Harris. When the Government objected to the term “shall”, I asked whether “may” would be more acceptable. It was almost before the words were out of my mouth that I knew that I was going to be challenged by the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, who quite rightly made the point that police and crime commissioners who do not understand the need for robust governance arrangements are the ones who most need them.
My Amendments 4 and 18 break my own rules about providing for more regulation-making powers for the Secretary of State, but I have worded them in that way because I am not quite convinced that Amendments 3 and 20 quite capture everything. I have added to my list, in what would be new subsection (4B),
“provision for arrangements to ensure probity”.
Financial matters are within that, but probity covers a wider area.
I spotted what some might regard as a flaw in my amendment by providing for consultation with police and crime commissioners, or their union as it might be, before their coming into being, but I have assumed, for the purposes of this argument at any rate, that the transitional arrangements might give time for this as well as consultation with local authority representatives. That is because of the important role of panels, police authorities and local authorities in this area.
My noble friend Lord Wallace spoke in Committee of the importance of personalities and personal relationships, and a willingness to co-operate. He was quite right, but I would say, “Yes, but”, or maybe, “Yes, therefore”.
There was also concern about how much detail should be in the Bill. Well, there is quite a lot of detail in it, so I would like to see some that I would be comfortable supporting. My noble friend also talked about the roles undertaken by the chief executive and the chief finance officer. He said that they would ensure that propriety and that:
“They will be subject to established public authority duties, as are their equivalents in police authorities and elsewhere”.—[Official Report, 18/5/11; col. 1466.]
They do have those duties, but that is not the same as governance in the round. I would say to the noble Lord, Lord Howard, that the police and crime panels, with their limited checks, are not governance. Most of their duties are to be carried out in arrear. They do not have a contemporary role and that is what governance is about. If it is to be their function, the Bill needs a lot of amendment and I for one would be very happy to see that, but the check, balance and scrutiny role in police and crime panels is a different role from governance.
There have been major developments in governance in public life recently. Many of your Lordships will be involved in charities where hugely different arrangements have had to be put in place over recent years. It is proper that there are such standards in public life. This is another such position. I am not convinced that the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Harris, is spot on and I am sure that he and the Minister will say that mine is not either, but something needs to be provided that surrounds, supports and controls this new office.
Lord Condon
My Lords, the amendment put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Harris, and supported by the noble Lord, Lord Stevens, gives us some comfort and takes us in the direction of more reassuring corporate governance than the Government's current proposals. Like the noble Lord, Lord Harris, I accept that the Government will probably be successful in reinstating their provisions for elected police and crime commissioners, but there remains an element of the doctrinaire in their proposals. There is a feeling that the election by the public of a single person who is then unencumbered by advice, support or challenge is the only way forward. I fear that the only people around the elected police commissioner offering expert advice could well be sycophantic staff whose very livelihood relies on the elected police and crime commissioner.
The dilemma is that we are in an either/or situation. Either police and crime panels with an independent element must be given greater strength and authority than is currently proposed—and I was reassured by the Minister that we are moving a little way that direction—or we should have the model offered by the noble Lords, Lord Harris and Lord Stevens, of a board of non-executive directors.
I have spent 10 years in the private sector as a deputy chairman and non-executive director of one of the biggest companies in the world and I know the value of non-executive directors. The Government also know their value, because under their proposals this week for reform of the defence of our country the individual service chiefs will be removed from the Defence Board and replaced by non-executive directors. The Government know in their heart of hearts the value of non-executive directors.
I hope that the Minister will give us some comfort that we are moving away from this doctrinaire notion about the purity of the electorate electing the police and crime commissioner and the commissioner not being encumbered by any advice other than that which they choose to hire themselves. I am not sure that I could wholly support the amendment put forward by the noble Lords, Lord Harris and Lord Stevens, but we need either that or stronger police and crime panels, and words of comfort from the Minister.
Lord Newton of Braintree
I was wondering whether one was allowed to take part in the debate if one was not a former chief constable or Home Secretary, but I have decided to take the risk, having listened rather carefully.
I only want to add a few sentences. I thought that the speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Harris, was one of the most persuasive that I have ever heard—that is, until I heard the speech of my noble friend Lord Howard of Lympne about overlapping bodies. That brings me to the same position as the noble Lord, Lord Condon, who has just spoken, with his distinguished and long experience. We certainly do not want two boards or panels with overlapping responsibilities treading on each other’s feet—that was my noble friend’s point. Equally, we do not want a police commissioner who is a lonely figure with massive responsibilities and nobody to turn to.
It seems that the answer to this is not to set up a non-executive board but to look at the panel, as has just been suggested, and make sure that its powers, responsibilities or however they are defined reflect the need for the commissioner to be able to turn to people for advice, support and sometimes comfort—or, indeed, unwelcome advice—in the way that has been reflected in this debate. I hope that may be of some help to my noble friends on the Front Bench, as the view of one modest Back-Bencher who has listened to the debate.
Viscount Brookeborough
My Lords, I support the amendment, or at least the basis of it. My experience is from the Northern Ireland Policing Board—which is, incidentally, perhaps the last such board, but also the one which has been modernised most recently, and in difficult circumstances. It was required to cover all the aspects that we are talking about in that it had to be workable.
As for having non-executive directors or the equivalent, this is not just about the commissioner’s power or about bringing in the expertise; quite frankly, it is about the impossibility of the commissioner carrying out all the functions that he will have to carry out. The functions of the police panels are laid out quite clearly. The Bill says that they are to monitor and keep up to date with the commissioner. It does not say anything about their powers to call police and other people. In fact, Clause 30(2) says:
“Nothing in subsection (1) requires a member of the police and crime commissioner’s staff to give any evidence, or produce any document, which discloses advice given to the commissioner by that person”.
The commissioner is the one who has the power to call the police to give evidence on what is happening, and to scrutinise everything that goes on in the police force.
Although I hesitate to do so, I do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Howard. The problem is that the powers do not overlap. It appears that the panel has no right to go into the police to find out the details; that power rests entirely with the commissioner. The problem is that no individual—commissioner or otherwise—can possibly go into all the issues such as finance, staff, equality, property and everything else. To correct that in the Northern Ireland Policing Board, we had somebody in the property market as well as an accountant and somebody in HR. I do not believe that anyone here could give us an example of an individual who could do the work that we had to do to monitor the police. There is no such individual.
So I would ask the Minister: who in the police and crime commissioner’s office will do that? The answer is that it will be done by paid staff. The police and crime commissioner’s staff will produce an opinion to one person without that being questioned by any expertise or any experience on that side at all because, as I understand the provision that I have just read out, the panel will have absolutely no right under the Bill even to hear that advice.
Lord Wasserman
I, too, am a great believer in non-executive directors. Having served as a non-executive director on a public company and on several private companies, I think that non-executive directors have an extremely important role to play, but their role is defined as relating to “fiduciary duty”. They are there to look after the interest of the shareholders, or owners, of the company. They understand their role, management understands their role and, where it all works extremely well, as several noble Lords have already said, we know that they appreciate that role.
However, the amendment is not about fiduciary duty but about expertise, advice and management, which are quite different. This is not about the role of a non-executive director, who is an independent director on the board who ensures that the interests of the shareholders are looked after; this is about having a team that will bring expertise, knowledge and advice to the police and crime commissioner. I think that the amendment confuses a non-executive with, as it were, a consultant or a special adviser; they are not quite the same. We ought not to think of this proposal in terms of a board of non-executives who provide independence but in terms of people who provide expertise. The amendment says that these people will advise on financial matters, staff matters and equality matters. It is important that such expertise should be available to PCCs—there is no question about that—but to suggest that these are non-executives who form a non-executive board is, it seems to me, the wrong way to go about it.
Also, we know that it will be open to any PCC to hire advisers and consultants—no doubt some will, and no doubt there will be some who will not who should—so the amendment seems to be rather a sledge-hammer taken to a nut. The amendment would require all 43 or all 41 forces, no matter how small, to have at least four non-executives. I think that the whole thing is far too prescriptive.
And yet the amendment also leaves lots of questions unanswered. For example, how often should the non-executive board meet? If we put this in the Bill, it will be quite open to a PCC never to bring the non-executives together or to bring them together once a year for a meeting lasting half an hour. The PCC would thereby fulfil the terms of the amendment, yet he would not get the advantages of having non-executives. The next thing, we know, is that we will want to set out regulations to make it clear that the PCC has to meet with them and how often he has to meet with them. What papers could the non-executives see? Could they see all papers or only those that relate to their particular subject? Could they see operational papers and all the papers that the PCC sees? Could they be briefed by the chief constable? Could they deal directly with the chief constable and with the management team, or could they only advise the PCC? Finally, how is their effectiveness to be judged? Can the PCC fire them whenever he wants to, or does he have to go back to the panel to fire them? According to this amendment, he does not. It would be a ridiculous situation if he fired them and then hired a new group, the panel approved a new group and then he disagreed with them.
There are several problems, but the main problem is that it is far too prescriptive while leaving these gaps. It smacks too much of central direction. I was thinking of the day when there will be an association of non-executive members of police authorities. They will meet regularly with ACPO at the annual conference and discuss the problems of non-executives. It will be all far too organised. There will certainly be directives out of the Home Office describing in minute detail when they should meet, how often they should meet, what records should be kept and so on.
Even worse than that, I see this as a sort of consultants’ windfall. What will happen, unless we specify that these non-executives have to be resident in the area of the particular force, is that we will have a group of high-powered, well paid, very able and experienced consultants who act as non-executive directors for five, 10 or 20 forces. They will be specialists in equality, finance or staffing. There would be nothing wrong with that; it would achieve what this amendment wants it to achieve—namely, it would bring expertise to the commissioner. It would hold his feet to the fire if he refused to make decisions or, on the other hand, tell him that he has not got all the power in the world. The noble Lord, Lord Harris, suggested that that was one of the functions. I see this very much as a windfall for consultants, and I doubt that we really want that.
While the Bill gives chief constables more freedom to manage, at the same time this amendment gives the PCC less freedom. We are saying on one hand that the chief constable can appoint his top management team and at the same time that the PCC has to have approval for his non-executive team. That seems wrong.
Finally, I think or hope that people see this Bill as strengthening the link between forces and their local communities. This amendment will in effect weaken it by bringing in experts who are not related to the community but are simply there for their expertise, their knowledge and their experience.
Lord Blair of Boughton
My Lords, I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Newton, for adding to his collection of commissioners and chairmen of police authorities. However, I want to say, having served as a chief officer of police for 15 years, that I served with the police committees that the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Lympne, reformed in order to bring in an independent group of people. The committees were transformed by that process. I know from what I have heard of the speeches of my erstwhile colleagues that all of us feel that the independence of some people around this police and crime commissioner is fundamental. I have not seen a better amendment than the one put forward by the noble Lords, Lord Harris and Lord Stevens, and I support it.
Baroness Henig
I wish to add a word or two. I heard very much what the noble Lord said, and I very much sympathise with the idea of strengthening the panel. Nobody has tried harder during the Committee stage of this Bill than I have, with the assistance of the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, to strengthen the function of the panel. I have put five amendments to that effect. Thus far, the Government have not been minded to strengthen the panel, for a very clear reason. They feel that the only role of the panel is to scrutinise the commissioner and that the panel should be able to scrutinise the commissioner only on very specific areas. Thus far, I have to say that I do not believe that that constitutes strict checks and balances, which is a different issue. None the less, if I was confident that at Report the Government would change their views and accept some of the amendments that I have down later for strengthening the panels, I would feel differently. But I cannot say to the Minister that I have that confidence at the moment, because of the very strong line that the Minister has taken. The issue is the relationship of the panel to the commissioner. If the Government maintain their attitude on that issue then this is the only other mechanism to accomplish what I was trying to do with the panels.
I wanted to raise one slight point with my noble friend Lord Harris, which I asked him about very early on when he was putting together his ideas. Is it an either/or situation? Is there any way in which some or all of the independents who we have been talking about, and who we all value so highly for their expertise, could also serve on the panel? Perhaps he could say in due course whether it is an either/or situation, because I am not absolutely convinced that it needs to be.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, this has been an interesting and, I believe, an important debate. My noble friend Lord Harris, in what I thought was a powerful introduction, pointed out the huge power and authority that is being given to an elected police and crime commissioner if the Commons decides to send this back to your Lordships’ House in its original construct. I noted the comments on that of the noble Lord, Lord Howard, but when he referred back to his legislation of 20 years ago, I think he also referred to a number of ping-pongs. That is a salutary reminder to your Lordships’ House that if we do not think that the House of Commons has thought sufficiently, we can send the Bill back to give it a bit more time to reflect—but we will come to that in a few months’ time, no doubt.
The issue of governance is very important. My noble friend was right to point out that we are giving huge responsibility to police and crime commissioners, if that is the final outcome of the Bill. The need for some way in which the individual can be allowed to test out their ideas and have them challenged as my noble friend describes seems an important issue. We know that when individuals are given great power, sometimes they abuse it. We are talking about a considerable number of police forces. It is inconceivable that we will not have one or two persons who are unsuitable but who are elected to those positions. Earlier, we were referred to a number of local authorities where mayors have been elected. I would say that the experience of elected mayors has been mixed. Some have been outstanding, but there have been one or two who ought not to have been elected and great problems have been caused there. I think of them when it comes to the issue of governance around police and crime commissioners.
Other noble Lords have pointed out that the Government do not seem to speak with consistency in these matters. Earlier this week, as the noble Lord, Lord Condon, pointed out, we had the change in governance relating to the MoD. My own area of knowledge is in the National Health Service: I declare an interest as chairman of the Heart of England NHS Foundation Trust and as a trainer consultant in the NHS. The NHS Bill had gone through most of its stages in the Commons when the Government instituted a pause and, only 10 days or so ago, announced the results of it. One of them was to strengthen governance within clinical commissioning groups. Originally, they were going to be GP consortia and a few GPs were going to sit round the table deciding how to spend £80 billion of public money. The result of the listening exercise has been that they are now going to be called clinical commissioning groups, because there has been recognition that you cannot just give that huge power to a few individual GPs.
We are now going to have two lay people appointed to those commissioning groups: a nurse and a consultant from outside the area. Why outside the area? It is because there is recognition that there might be a conflict of interest if a hospital consultant in the catchment area of the commissioning group were to be appointed. As a result of the listening exercise, what has happened is that a much stronger corporate governance structure is being put into place. What I do not understand is why the Home Office seems oblivious to what other departments are doing in relation to legislation or, for instance, to the changes in defence. It is difficult to see where there is any consistency of purpose.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, we all recognise the importance of quality of governance for any new arrangements to oversee policing. Quality of governance is very much at the heart of all that we are concerned about. Part of what we are discussing is what we mean by the continuing process of scrutiny and the extent to which an overall package provides us with checks and balances that those responsible for holding the police to account are aware of every day. I respectfully suggest that noble Lords opposite underestimate how far the Government have shifted on the role of police and crime panels. That is the direction of travel in which we are increasing responsibility.
We recognise that police and crime panels will work with, as well as check, police and crime commissioners, and that police and crime commissioners will have to work with their panels. That is the model. Nothing in the Bill prevents a police and crime commissioner or MOPC forming a non-executive board. We see the PCC and the Mayor of London appointing a chief executive and a chief finance officer who will, first, have professional qualifications and backgrounds; secondly, be governed by the Nolan principles; and thirdly, themselves be subject to confirmation hearings by the PCP. That is the direction in which we have shifted. It will be open for a police and crime commissioner to consult more widely for professional advice. The question is: how much detail do we want in the Bill about what sort of professional advice he or she should consult?
We have moved away from what the noble Lord, Lord Condon, described as “a doctrinaire position” of individual election and personal accountability and responsibility. The direction in which we have moved is towards stronger PCPs and a relationship between the PCP and the PCC that will have to be a continuing one of mutual confidence. We hesitate to insist on to some extent duplicating that relationship by writing into the Bill the necessity of having, in addition to this, a non-executive board.
We all recognise that we are talking about the risk of mavericks or irresponsible populists being elected. I know and respect the Mayor of Watford, who is an excellent elected mayor. There are several such mayors. However, I travel past Doncaster twice a week and am well aware of the issues that are at the back of people’s minds.
It is the Government’s aspiration that in cases where relations break down, the PCP will step in at that point. It will have the role of reviewing or scrutinising every decision of the police and crime commissioner. In particular, it will have a right of veto over the precept and the appointment of the chief constable. It will have a say in the police and crime commissioner’s appointment of senior staff by holding confirmation hearings. It will play a significant part in the complaints procedure around the police and crime commissioner, and it will hold the police and crime commissioner to account for his or her role in the complaints procedure of the force. Therefore, we have strengthened the position of the PCP.
We look to a model in which the PCC and the PCP will work together and the police and crime commissioner will take the police and crime panel into his or her confidence. The panels have been enlarged and have the ability to appoint independent members in addition to local authority representatives. That answers the question of providing governance in the round. I suggest that the House is now underplaying the concessions that the Government have made and the consequent role of the police and crime panel. We have listened and we share the concerns that have been expressed around the House from a range of positions. However, we are not persuaded that we should put in the Bill any further mandatory requirements from the centre, or seek to constrain the police and crime commissioner, when there is a proportionate degree of advice, guidance and scrutiny that is accountable to the public already built into the system. Having, I hope, provided reassurance on these issues, I respectfully request that the noble Lord withdraw his amendment.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, I am enormously grateful to those noble Lords who have contributed to this short debate, which has been extremely interesting and powerful. I am particularly grateful to the trio of former Commissioners of Police of the Metropolis who, in varying degrees, lent support to my amendment. I am also grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Lympne, for reminding me of our many productive—or nearly productive—discussions in the past on all sorts of other matters.
I do not claim that this amendment is perfect. I suspect that the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, accepts that her amendment is not perfect. She said that it talks about consulting PCCs. One of the dangers is that by the time PCCs are in a position to be consulted they may well already have taken a whole series of decisions around good governance. I suspect that if your Lordships were to support any of the amendments in this group we would need to revisit those amendments at Third Reading or when the Bill comes back from the Commons, but the important point is the principles that have been raised.
The key issue that has been highlighted as an argument for not proceeding with this measure concerns the changes that are being made to police and crime panels. I have listened to the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, say that the Government are listening. However, the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, then stands up, says that he has listened but then describes exactly what changes are being made. What changes are being made to PCPs? We have moved from a threshold of three-quarters having to vote on an issue to a threshold of two-thirds. During my four years on the London Assembly, and in the succeeding seven years, I do not think there has been a single occasion when the London Assembly has achieved the two-thirds threshold needed to do anything about the mayor’s budget, so two-thirds is a high threshold. The threshold has been lowered from a monumentally high one to a high one. That is a very big concession for which your Lordships will, of course, be grateful.
The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, talked about the direction of travel, working with people as well as checking them and the introduction of confirmation hearings for a small group of officials. That is all very positive stuff but it does not constitute significant movement in this area. There are two principal problems with PCPs as regards providing a structure of robust governance. First, they will by and large exercise that role after the event. Where there is a need to improve governance it is important to have intervention in advance of those decisions being made, which is where non-executive boards could come in. The second problem, which I do not think has been mentioned so far, is the nature of PCPs. They will still be essentially highly party-political bodies. They will be made up either of the direct political opponents of the PCC or of people from the PCC’s own party, who are often the sternest and most difficult critics, as many elected and former elected politicians will testify. They will constitute a political forum in which these decisions will be batted backwards and forwards, not a forum where robust governance can be implemented.
We had a flight of fancy from the noble Lord, Lord Wasserman, regarding where all this might lead. He referred to conferences and associations and complained that the amendment was too prescriptive because it says that there should be between four and seven members on a non-executive board. However, he then complained that all sorts of things were not included, so in fact he was arguing that it was both too prescriptive and not prescriptive enough. I do not think that that flight of fancy is terribly helpful to us. However, if the noble Lord was prepared to come forward with the precise balance of words which would be prescriptive enough but not too prescriptive, I am sure that we would all be very grateful and very pleased to receive it.
Do we want proper governance around these individuals, who will have very substantial personal mandates with all the authority and perhaps arrogance that that brings? Do we want a proper structure whereby the people who have elected them can see that they are carrying out their functions properly and appropriately? I am not satisfied with the Government’s response. Therefore, I wish to test the opinion of the House.
Baroness Browning
“( ) A police and crime commissioner must comply with paragraphs 7B to 7E in appointing the commissioner’s chief executive or the commissioner’s chief finance officer.”
Baroness Browning
My Lords, I shall speak also to government Amendments 6, 60, 62 to 64, 66 to 68, 72, 110, 115, 133, 191, 293 and 303, which seek to set out new provisions on the appointment of chief executives, chief finance officers and deputy police and crime commissioners.
It is right that the panel is able to apply its scrutiny powers to any such appointment. It will be able to review a proposed appointment and hold a confirmation hearing in public. The panel will then have to produce a report that includes a recommendation as to whether the candidate should be appointed. The police and crime commissioner will have to respond to this recommendation.
In Committee, my noble friend Lord Shipley and the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, discussed the importance of the posts of chief executive and chief finance officer, and asked how they will be appointed. I hope that the amendment relating to this makes that clearer, but I shall say a little more. The two posts will be key to assisting the police and crime commissioner in the exercise of his or her functions, and will assure and monitor the propriety of the PCC’s decisions in accordance with local government legislation. We therefore agree that transparency and ensuring that information is available publicly will be crucial in allowing the public to hold their police and crime commissioner to account. These new arrangements will open up the appointment process for these senior members of the police and crime commissioner’s staff and allow full scrutiny throughout the process.
Noble Lords will note that the Government have tabled further amendments in relation to deputy police and crime commissioners. Their appointment will now also be subject to a confirmation hearing. The Bill does not require a PCC to appoint a deputy but, as currently drafted, permits it. I know that a number of Peers were concerned that the lack of provision for appointing a deputy police and crime commissioner meant that a PCC could appoint anyone. The Government have listened to those concerns and brought forward these amendments to meet them. The amendments would still not require a PCC to appoint a deputy but would provide a set process that, should they do so, must be followed. Most importantly, it means that any deputy appointed by a PCC would be subject to a confirmation hearing before the police and crime panel. Therefore, any concerns that the panel has can be made public and be put to that candidate.
Baroness Henig
My Lords, I have one amendment in the group, Amendment 228. Before I speak to it, I apologise in advance if I do not fully appreciate all the nuances of the amendments that the Government have laid. I was thinking about that in our debate on the previous amendment when the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, took us gently to task for not having appreciated how much the Government had moved on this. If the Government table amendments only the day before the debate, it makes it extremely difficult for those of us who, with the best will in the world, want to follow the changes, to do so in the short time available. As I said, I apologise if I have misunderstood some of the amendments. I have tried very hard to follow them, but it takes time for that knowledge to come across.
The amendment builds on the Government's welcome recognition that if we are to have commissioners covering very large areas—for example, 10,000 square kilometres or 2.3 million people—for 365 days a year, it is necessary for there to be a deputy. It is necessary just in case the individual does not have your Lordships’ stamina, or even if the commissioner might like to have a holiday.
On a less happy note, although a standards regime for commissioners and panels has been noticeable by its absence from the Government's plans, a deputy should be enshrined within the Bill as one step towards ensuring probity and preserving public confidence. That should be one element. For example, what would happen if a commissioner had to make a decision about contracts or appointments but had a personal or prejudicial interest in the companies or individuals concerned? In such circumstances, it would seem essential that they could call on a trusted deputy who could maintain public trust and confidence in the institution of commissioner if the individual had to stand aside for whatever reason. I can see the rationale behind that, and I am pleased that the Government have listened, taken those arguments on board and come back with a firm proposal to insert the provision for a deputy into the Bill.
At the same time, I feel I have to point out that the Government’s concept of the deputy and the job specification for it seem to me antithetical to the entire rationale for commissioners: that of democratic accountability. I listened earlier with great attention as the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Lympne, in his usual inimitable style, laid out the great advance that we are now making towards democratic accountability. I understand the arguments, so I would expect to proceed beyond the commissioner to the deputy commissioner.
It seems odd to me that, despite pushing on with this reform and spending more than more than £100 million on introducing that direct democratic accountability into the oversight of policing, the only thing that we have heard so far is that the deputy commissioner is likely to be unelected—although I just heard that political restrictions will not apply, so that person could be a councillor. I had not appreciated that until the noble Baroness pointed it out. It is now conceivable that the deputy could be elected, but also very possible that they would not. With this direct accountability and great change, it would seem more logical to me if the deputy was elected.
I would find it difficult to find any logic in an elected commissioner handing over, for whatever reason, the bulk of their portfolio powers over policing and precept to someone who was not elected and perhaps not identified with a political party. If there is a theme running through this reform, we need to bolster it.
The main aim of my amendment is to ensure that when a commissioner is unable to act, whether because of illness, legal issues or whatever, their role should be covered by an elected acting person drawn from the panel and not by an unelected officer. That is my main concern. In a way, that is separate from the question of the deputy. There can be a deputy who is unelected. I am mainly concerned that when the commissioner is not acting, that role should be undertaken by someone who is elected.
I have to remind the Minister that there was great strength of feeling on that point in Committee, to which the Government have not entirely responded. They have responded a little by saying that the deputy might be elected but that they do not have to be. It is the “do not have to be” that worries me. The deputy could remain the deputy, but I would not want a non-elected individual dealing with a precept, for example, or a whole range of sensitive political issues and public concerns for what could be a period of many weeks. That would be totally against the central objectives of the Bill. That is what I am trying to get at; when a commissioner, for whatever reason, stands aside, the acting commissioner should be someone who was elected.
Under my amendment, it would be an elected member of the panel. I can see that there being an elected deputy might meet my concerns, but I am very sensitive to arguments that the deputies, given how they will be appointed, might be seen as cronies or pals of the commissioner. We need to look at that a little more closely. I did not altogether understand how the commissioners would choose the deputies. There are clearly issues about that appointments process, with people being seen to merit their appointment and not, in a sense, being appointed through jobs for the boys, cronyism or whatever. Perhaps I am sensitive on this matter because of my gender—I do not know—but it is a point that I feel I need to raise.
That is the purpose of my amendment. As I said, I am very interested to hear what the Government have to say, because their amendments have cut across my thinking to some extent but probably not fully.
Lord Shipley
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 229, but it needs to be placed in the broader context of this group. The amendment relates to our view that a deputy should be a member of the panel and, in the context of that specific amendment, not a member of the commissioner’s staff.
If one looks carefully at Amendment 60 in this group, one will see that it gives a commissioner the power to appoint a person as the deputy for that police area and also for that deputy,
“to exercise any function of the police and crime commissioner”.
There is a very great difference between our view that the person appointed as the deputy should be from the panel and Amendment 60, which gives absolute power to the police and crime commissioner to appoint a deputy to exercise any function of the commissioner.
In Amendment 6 a number of restrictions then apply, most of them welcome. Proposed new paragraph 7A(4) is surprising. It tells us:
“Section 7 of the Local Government and Housing Act 1989 (appointment of staff on merit) does not apply to the deputy police and crime commissioner”.
That is an unfortunate way of putting it because it relates to a statutory provision. However, should we not have deputies who are appointed on merit, as opposed to people who are not appointed on merit? Nevertheless, there is then a proposal in proposed new paragraphs 7B, 7C and onwards for the scrutiny of senior appointments, one of which is the deputy, the others the chief executive and chief finance officer, and there is a process for a hearing in public of the person whom the commissioner wishes to appoint as deputy. However, proposed new paragraph 7E says:
“The police and crime commissioner may accept or reject the panel’s recommendation”,
and sub-paragraph (2) of that paragraph states:
“The police and crime commissioner must notify the panel of the decision whether to accept or reject the recommendation”.
In other words, a proposal is made to the panel and the panel will go through a process. It will comment and report in public, but the commissioner can turn down its view. Therefore, broadly speaking, we are now where we were before with absolute power being given to the commissioner. I have great reservations about that.
Proposed new subsection (2A) in Amendment 63 on page 15 of the Marshalled List says that the deputy police commissioner, having been appointed by the commissioner,
“may arrange for any other person to exercise any function of the police and crime commissioner which is, in accordance with subsection (A1)(b), exercisable by the deputy police and crime commissioner”.
There are restrictions in the amendment largely on the functions that are prescribed. A number of key functions are restricted; nevertheless, a number of functions still exist for the deputy.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, I echo the remarks of my noble friend Lady Henig about how difficult it is to get our heads around some of these extremely complicated amendments in the very short time that we have had to look at them. I have a series of questions, which I am sure Ministers will be able to answer in the detail that I expect. However, I suspect that it will demonstrate that quite a lot of further work still needs to be done on the amendments put forward today and on the other proposals. I repeat what I said earlier, which may have appeared frivolous, about the advantage of Third Reading being in September: there is still an awful lot of work for Home Office officials to do to get some of the details of the Bill right. That is the case whether or not one agrees with the general direction of travel or whether one agrees about where we are going to end up. Some of the mechanics of the Bill are going to fall apart unless this detailed work is done.
My questions relate, first, to the mammoth extension of powers for the PCPs, which enable them to have approval hearings of the chief executive, the PCC’s office, the chief financial officer and any deputy appointed. That, I am sure, is helpful. I have no problems with it as a principle and I think that it is good governance and useful. However, what I am not clear about—it may be here and I have just not found it, or it may not be here and has not been thought about, or it may have been thought about and is being rejected, but it would be useful to know—is what the role of the PCP will be in circumstances in which the PCC removes or dismisses the chief executive or the chief financial officer, or indeed a deputy. There is a more difficult point in this. One of the concerns is that newly elected PCCs may decide to dispense with the services of chief executives and chief financial officers. In those circumstances, what is the role of PCPs? I cannot find it, but it may be here. No doubt the Minister will enlighten us on that point.
I assume that there are more government amendments to come, but we do not know. I had understood that there had been considerable discussions about the transfer schemes of staff from police authorities to police services, to chief officers of police and/or to PCCs. I had understood that there had been an acceptance that it might be necessary to have a two-stage process, simply because of the detailed work that needs to be done and simply because of the importance of enabling the newly elected PCCs, if that is what we end up with, as I suspect we might, to see how that will work, and giving them the opportunity of influencing that decision rather than having the outgoing police authorities determining which staff are transferred under what conditions. Such an amendment may be here and I have just missed it, but I am not clear that there is an amendment yet which specifies how that two-stage process will work.
In any event, I think we are in some difficulties because Amendments 67 and 86 prevent PCCs or the MOPC or deputy PCCs—if that is what we get—and the deputy mayor for policing and crime, arranging for a member of staff from a police force to exercise any of its functions. I understand that the reasoning behind that is that Ministers want to separate completely the functions and staffing of forces and elected local policing bodies. That may be a perfectly good and sensible principle, but disentangling what existing staff, who are currently employed by police authorities and who are under the direction and control of chief officers of police, which is the current situation, provide what function, particularly in the absence of a two-stage transfer process, will be a very large piece of work.
Currently, for example, the Metropolitan Police Authority delegates functions to the commissioner through the scheme of delegation. The commissioner has overall management responsibility for a large number of staff who are under his direction and control, although technically they are MPA employees. Under the first phase of the proposed two-phase transfer scheme, staff who are currently police authority employees, but under the direction and control of the commissioner, will transfer to the PCC or the MOPC, but will no longer be under the direction and control of the commissioner and chief constable. The legislation will allow the PCC and the MOPC to delegate to those staff who had previously been under the direction and control of the commissioner; however, as the MOPC and PCC and their deputies would not now be able to delegate to the commissioner and chief constable, it would appear that the current arrangements, whereby the police authority can delegate these functions, would no longer be lawful. Therefore, current delegations would need to be changed with the consequence that you would have very large numbers of staff, particularly in the areas of finance, property, communications, procurement and legal, for whom you will now have to decide whether they spend all their time working for the new structure under the PCC and the MOPC or working for the chief officer of police. Those are quite complicated decisions because at the moment they often split their time; some bits of work are very much police authority functions and some bits are very much for the chief officer of police.
Under these two amendments you are essentially saying that it is unlawful to delegate those functions to such people, so a hard-and-fast set of decisions will have to be made for each individual about which side of the fence they are on and the Government wish all that to happen by May of next year, or possibly earlier in London. A two-stage system of delegation is needed to allow all those details to be sorted out and to allow the newly elected PCCs to have some influence over what staffing and support structures they will want. At the moment, in the absence of a government amendment on that—unless it is there and I just cannot find it—the Government are making that unlawful. I am sure that that is not their intention and I hope that the Minister will reassure me that I have completely misinterpreted what this means or perhaps give me some assurance that she will come back at Third Reading. I suspect she may need more than three weeks to sort this out.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, I preface my remarks with an apology to the Minister and to the House if, in the very limited time that has been available to us to try to understand and assimilate the thrust of the amendments tabled yesterday, I have been unable fully to appreciate what the drafting has led us to in terms of the substantive changes that the amendments seek to make. I entirely concur with the concerns raised by the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, in relation to Amendment 63—particularly in new subsection (2A) of that amendment—which allows the deputy police and crime commissioner to arrange for any other person, without any qualification, to exercise any function of the police and crime commissioner which, in turn, the deputy police and crime commissioner could carry out. That seems to be an extraordinarily wide power to delegate to whomever the deputy pleases, bearing in mind that under Amendment 72 the deputy police and crime commissioner is to be a member of the police and crime commissioner's staff. We have an appointed staff member with a capacity to appoint anyone else to exercise functions which he would delegate to or select for that person. That seems to go very wide indeed and much wider than one would normally anticipate in the context of an organisation of this kind.
Furthermore, the effect of paragraph (c) of Amendment 63, which amends Clause 19, seems to me to allow the deputy commissioner to determine police and crime objectives—Clause 19(4)(b)—or to prepare an annual report to a police and crime panel, although admittedly it does not allow him to make decisions relating to issuing a police and crime plan, nor the appointment of a chief constable—hardly surprisingly—nor calculating the budget requirement. That seems to be a very wide power to confer on a deputy. As I understand it, these are not provisions that would apply only in the absence of a police and crime commissioner for any reason—suspension, incapacity or something of that kind—but these are powers at large. I do not understand why such sweeping powers should be conferred on anyone, particularly someone who does not have any kind of electoral mandate, either by virtue of direct election, as in the case of a commissioner, or by virtue of being an elected council member who serves as a member of the panel. It seems to me to be much too broad a power to offer to someone occupying the kind of position that presumably would be encompassed by these amendments.
Like the matters to which my noble friend Lord Harris and others have referred, I wonder whether these should not be re-examined with a good deal more care and perhaps more time so that we can get this right. It seems to me that we are conferring very wide powers without qualification on people whom we have no idea will be able to fulfil the jobs and with a very wide discretion available to them.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, I am in much the same position as most, if not all, the previous speakers, having had very little time to assimilate the significance of the amendments which the Government have submitted at a very late stage indeed. However, I wish to associate myself with the views that have been expressed by my noble friends Lady Henig, Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord Beecham and with much of what the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, said and the concerns that he, too, raised in relation to the lack of clarity in some of the amendments that are before us.
I do not intend to go over all the points that have already been made, but one thing I am not entirely clear on is whether in the amendments we have it is the Government’s intention to delete Clause 63(2) which states:
“The police and crime panel may appoint a person as acting commissioner only if the person is a member of the police and crime commissioner’s staff at the time of the appointment”.
I am not clear whether the amendments the Government are now putting forward in relation to the deputy are over and above Clause 63(2) or whether in some way or other they, in the Government’s view, overtake the need for Clause 63(2). One of the concerns that were raised in Committee was over the proposal that an acting commissioner would be a member of the commissioner’s staff. It would be very helpful if the Minister could clarify that point when she replies.
Perhaps the Government could also say something about how they see the role of the deputy. That is by no means clear from the amendment. It states:
“A police and crime commissioner must notify the relevant police and crime panel of each proposed appointment by the commissioner of … the commissioner’s chief executive … the commissioner’s chief finance officer, or … a deputy police and crime commissioner”.
Is it the Government’s intention that if the police and crime commissioner intends to make such an appointment, we are talking about a full-time post? If we are, what are the role and responsibilities of that post going to be, other than deputising for the police and crime commissioner? Or is it a scenario where the police and crime commissioner says, “Well, I’m going to appoint a deputy police and crime commissioner, and it will be my chief finance officer”.? Is that allowed under the terms of this amendment or are they three distinct and separate posts? Can all three of those posts be held by one individual? Can one individual hold more than a single position? It would be very helpful if that could be clarified. Clearly, if a deputy police and crime commissioner could also be the commissioner’s chief finance officer, then we are back in the situation that was raised before over the fact that under Clause 63(2) an acting commissioner has to be a member of the police and crime commissioner’s staff, which is why I ask whether Clause 63(2) still stands. As has already been said, although there certainly is a process of confirmation hearings, and they will be in public, at the end of the day, the police and crime commissioner can decide to go his or her own way if they do not like the views expressed to them by the panel.
Our view is that a position as an acting commissioner or deputy commissioner, whatever you wish to call it, should be in circumstances where the police and crime commissioner cannot do their job any longer, for whatever reason. The appointment should be made by the police and crime panel, and it should be an appointment from within the ranks of the police and crime panel for a very clear and fixed period.
I await the Minister’s response to the concerns that have been raised because, subject to what the Minister says in reply, it appears as though the deputy police and crime commissioner, who could simply be the commissioner’s chief finance officer or the chief executive, need not be an elected person and yet will seem to have very considerable powers of delegation.
I conclude on those points. It is largely a series of questions. I have certainly indicated our view on the appointment of an acting commissioner. It is, in fact, covered by an amendment that will be dealt with later on, but it is one of the difficulties of considering what appears to be a quite significant change by the Government in relation to amendments that were effectively put down only yesterday when we were already on Report on the Bill.
Baroness Browning
My Lords, I apologised to the House earlier, and I appreciate that it has caused inconvenience, not least to the government Front Bench. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, has accepted my apology. It was genuinely meant.
Lord Rosser
I certainly accept the apology. I have no intention of seeking to imply that I do not, but I am just reiterating. I know that the Minister knows the difficulties that have been caused.
Baroness Browning
I am grateful to the noble Lord. I shall pick up some of the points just raised before giving a fuller explanation. The appointment, suspension or dismissal of a chief constable, which was raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, cannot be carried out by the deputy; nor can setting the precept, which the noble Baroness specifically asked about. There are proscriptions on what the deputy can do and the delegation of powers to a deputy would be subject to paragraph (b) in Amendment 63. Such powers would be restricted. However, I want to make it absolutely clear that the PCC has ultimate responsibility for whatever he or she delegates to the deputy. Whatever decisions are made in the areas where the deputy is able to act, the PCC is the person who will be answerable. There is no question that the PCC’s responsibility and accountability to the police and crime panel, and ultimately to the general public who elected him or her, is in any way reduced by delegating specific functions or authority to the deputy.
Several questions have been asked. I shall pick up the point which the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, raised about whether the deputy can be a member of the PCC’s staff. As a member of staff, when the deputy exercises a power he or she does so in the name of the PCC. As the PCC will, as I said, retain ultimate responsibility for it, wide powers are being conferred on the deputy. The deputy will be regarded as a member of the PCC’s staff for that purpose, so the checks and balances will apply as much to him or her, as a member of the PCC’s staff, as to anyone else carrying out a function within that office.
Lord Beecham
Does that mean that the person appointed will already be a member of the PCC’s staff; or that if he comes from outside and was not already a member of staff, his appointment will make him one? There are two different positions there.
Baroness Browning
My Lords, I will have to clarify that and come back to the noble Lord. However, an example was given a short while ago in our debate about chief executives. Certain members of staff within the PCC’s office are politically confined in what they can do and should be politically neutral. The recruitment procedure should ensure not only their political neutrality while holding the post but that their neutrality is considered before their appointment. The Nolan rules would apply to the key appointments in the Bill. I hope that the noble Lord will not mind if I come back to him with a more detailed structure, because there is a lot of detail around it.
The noble Lord, Lord Harris, raised several issues. I have to put it this way: I think he was being rather naughty tonight—engagingly naughty as always but naughty none the less. He asked me a lot of questions, particularly about transition. It is an important issue, but I am quite sure that as a member of the MPA the noble Lord knows what the situation is because there have been formal consultations and discussions about the transition period. He is shaking his head. I apologise if he has not been party to this information but it is generally known—and one or two people in the Chamber are smiling—that as part of these discussions the Government are planning to lay an amendment next week to give effect to the transfer scheme that has been formally discussed and made known to the MPA. That is why I thought he was being a little bit naughty.
Lord Harris of Haringey
I am always happy to be called naughty by the noble Baroness. However, I do not think that there have been any discussions with the MPA, or indeed the APA or APACE, about the details of the amendments tabled today. This is a very real problem that I hope the Minister is able to say something about, because the text of the amendment that the Government intend to lay next week has been shared, and I suspect that the reason it will be laid next week is that the text is not yet finalised—otherwise no doubt the Minister would have laid it with this batch of amendments.
Baroness Browning
That is quite true but we want to get this right. This is an important issue. I apologise that I am not able to discuss it in detail today but it has been the subject of a great deal of consultation, not least with the MPA, and we want to make absolutely sure that we get it right. I will come on to that later.
As I mentioned earlier, the amendments in this grouping have come about as a result of consultation and, of course, in Committee, where several noble Lords raised some significant issues around this area, not least my noble friends Lord Shipley and Baroness Hamwee. For example, they were concerned that the mayor could appoint a non-Assembly Member to be a deputy mayor, which would have cut across the democratic principles that the Bill seeks to establish. The Bill allows the Mayor of London, operating through the Mayor's Office for Policing and Crime, to delegate the day-to-day handling of policing governance to a deputy. However, in accordance with general legal principles, the mayor will not be able to pass on the responsibility for any delegated work. As I have just explained, PCCs will still hold that responsibility, whatever they delegate. I accept that this is a new governance model but it is essential that the mayor is always held responsible for the way that his or her functions are carried out.
Clause 20 establishes that the selection must be made in line with existing provisions for mayoral appointments. Further essential details, such as the eligibility criteria and terms and conditions for the post, are set out in Schedule 3 to the Bill. I should explain that in the initial draft of this Bill some particularly crucial functions could not be delegated to the deputy mayor for policing and crime, or anyone else, such as issuing a police and crime plan, preparing an annual report on policing, attending meetings on the police and crime panel, and representations on appointment of the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police. However, the committee in the House of Commons agreed to remove the barriers to the deputy mayor for policing and crime determining policing objectives, preparing an annual report and attending the police and crime panel on the mayor’s behalf. I would urge noble Lords to respect the decision of the other place in this matter, particularly given what I have already said regarding the ultimate legal and democratic responsibility of the mayor in these matters.
Lord Beecham
In the circumstances just outlined by the noble Baroness, there might be a deputy commissioner who would not be eligible to be appointed acting commissioner. However, if the deputy commissioner is a senior member of staff, is it possible that an acting commissioner might be appointed who might be junior in status to that deputy? Would that not create an extremely anomalous position?
Baroness Browning
I have said that I will write to the noble Lord on this whole question of staff. Clearly there are different categories of staff and I would like to take some advice on those before I give him a definitive reply. I promise to write to him very quickly on that matter. The point was raised particularly about chief finance officers but, as I have mentioned, they are appointed on merit and are politically restricted. I will look at other categories of staff that he has just raised.
Lord Harris of Haringey
I do not think that the noble Baroness responded to my points about whether PCPs would have a role in the dismissal or removal of chief executives or chief financial officers.
Baroness Browning
They will be able to dismiss a chief financial officer and there is nothing in the Bill that in any way prohibits them from doing so.
Baroness Browning
No, PCPs will not be part of that but of course the new amendment gives them an opportunity to be part of a confirmation process for those appointments. If for some reason the PCC decided to part with the services of the chief finance officer or the chief executive, that PCC would still be accountable to the panel for the reasons why they had done so. There is still that link of accountability, they are answerable to the panel, and if the panel was concerned about the circumstances around that I would expect it to call a scrutiny hearing to find out what had happened and why. I suspect that it would be pretty alert if there was a really serious problem brewing as a result of that.
Lord Rosser
Will the noble Baroness confirm that under proposed new paragraph 7B(1) in Amendment 6—it states that the police and crime commissioner must notify the panel of proposed appointments of the three posts of the chief executive, the chief finance officer and the deputy police and crime commissioner—the deputy police and crime commissioner can also be the commissioner’s chief finance officer and that, although they are three positions, they do not have to be held by three separate people?
Baroness Browning
I believe that the noble Lord asked me whether the deputy chief and crime commissioner could also be the finance officer. No, he cannot because the finance officer position is politically restricted and a person could not do both jobs.
Baroness Henig
As regards my amendment, I remain puzzled that the Government have not seen fit to move in this area. When this matter was discussed in Committee, a large number of reasons were put forward by Members on all sides of the House as to why it was a bad idea for an acting commissioner to be an unelected member of staff. I do not think that we heard any convincing reason—I cannot remember one anyway—as to why a member of staff should be asked to act up in this way for what could be a period of months. This is an obvious area where a concession could have been made with little difficulty but I am surprised that it has not been. I reserve the right to come back to my amendment at the relevant point.
Baroness Henig
“7A A police and crime commissioner must abide by regulations made by the Secretary of State in respect of the appointment of persons to paid office or employment and the dismissal of persons holding such office or employment and the taking of other disciplinary action against such persons.”
Baroness Henig
I will try to squeeze Amendment 7 in before the dinner break; I have on occasion been caught quite badly in this situation but I hope that this is a relatively short amendment. This important amendment relates to a commissioner’s senior staff. All of us have said that commissioners will need to be supported by an effective team of staff to be effective; that is, a chief executive and a chief finance officer. These posts carry statutory responsibilities, which are the same as in local authorities. The chief executive will also have the role and duties of monitoring officer.
Clearly, these duties are very important. In the case of the monitoring officer, it is a duty which applies if any proposal, decision or omission by the commissioner appears by the officeholder to be a contravention of any enactment, rule of law or code of practice made or approved by or under any enactment. Therefore, an officeholder might have to tell the commissioner that there is a problem and seek to persuade him to take a different approach. In extremis, the duty would require the post holder to report in public on a failure to follow that advice.
This does not happen often and I would not want to pretend that it did. Most politicians do not attempt to break the law and certainly do not attempt to pursue a specific course of action when they have been told that it is illegal. However, these things have happened in the past with elected mayors, and elected commissioners in some ways are an extension of elected mayors. It has to be said that the experience of recently elected mayors is not all tremendously positive. I believe that the Minister, who has passed Doncaster several times on his travels, alluded to one area where there have been difficulties. Therefore, it is important that the arrangements put in place through this Bill are sufficiently robust to deal with such a situation because we know that there will be problems. We can anticipate that there will be problems and, therefore, we need to plan for that.
In local government, the duties which apply to the head of paid service, the monitoring officer and the chief finance officer are backed up with a statutory framework to prevent their dismissal on a whim by a politician. The framework in a mayoral authority is that the mayor raises concerns of a disciplinary nature and a politically balanced panel considers whether there is a case for action. If the panel decides that there is a case, an independent person investigates and disciplinary action in line with the recommendations of the independent person takes place.
Therefore, a conversation which starts, “I'm afraid you can't do that, commissioner”, could not end with “You're fired”, because the officeholder could insist, under threat of legal injunction or judicial review, that the correct procedure is followed. Because in a local authority the head of paid service is protected and all other staff are employed by that person, the framework provides a measure of protection for all employees. My amendment mirrors Section 8 of the Local Government and Housing Act 1989, which is the statutory basis for the protection which applies in local government. It does not require that the framework in local government is mirrored precisely but it requires the Home Secretary to publish regulations and requires commissioners to follow them. It is therefore for Ministers to come forward with an approach to set a clear framework that needs to be followed.
I am anticipating that the Minister may say that chief executives and treasurers will be subject to the same protection as other employees; that the commissioner will be bound by the need to act reasonably, as are all public bodies; and that, therefore, the statutory protections to which I have referred do not add a lot more value and are unnecessary. My worry is that that would not fulfil the requirements for which I am looking because it would allow a commissioner to summarily dismiss someone and leave them to argue their case at an employment tribunal. The negative publicity of such a case could damage the commissioner, particularly if they do not intend to seek re-election. Again, that is an example of very limited checks and balances. Limited as they are, they could be undermined even further.
Those of us who have spent a long time in local government know the importance of good and honest advice from senior officers. I ask the question: would an elected commissioner listen to advice? Elected mayors have not always listened to the advice offered to them and, as a result, very serious situations have arisen. I do not believe that senior executives should be put in a position in which they could be summarily dismissed and then have to fight their corner at a subsequent employment tribunal. That is not right.
I am sure that these situations will arise. I am under no illusions. The sorts of people who will be elected as commissioners will be strong-minded and strong-willed individuals. Some of them might, dare I suggest, occasionally be a little pigheaded. I believe that they will always listen with wariness and will not always heed the advice that is given to them. When a senior executive says, “No commissioner, you can’t do that”, I do not have total confidence that the commissioner will accept that. I believe that senior staff will be vulnerable, which is the purpose of my amendment and why we should make sure that they have adequate legal protection.
I have listened carefully to the Minister, who said that the panel would certainly hear if the commissioner was going to dismiss a senior member of staff and might want to find out what was going on. I should like to know a bit more about the arrangements that she has in mind. I would like that arrangement not to be so loose and perhaps to have a bit more backing. For example, I think that, under one of the government amendments, the panel now needs to be consulted if the commissioner is considering dismissing the chief constable. I wonder whether it would be possible for them also to be involved if the chief executive or the treasurer were to be dismissed along the same lines. I am not looking for a very great change from the Government. I am looking for a step forward to recognise that these people could be vulnerable and to accept that they need a little more than the Government are preparing to give them at present. This is a serious issue.
Recent experience with mayors suggests that there will be some difficulties with directly elected commissioners. I believe that we need to think about those difficulties and do something for these senior staff. I do not think that it is fair to leave them to the whims of the commissioner. I beg to move.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, I hope that the Government will accept these amendments, which as my noble friend Lady Henig has said are designed to ensure that, in respect of appointments, dismissals and the taking of disciplinary action, police and crime commissioners and the Mayor’s Officer for Policing and Crime conform to laid-down standards to ensure openness and fairness in these key areas through abiding by regulations made by the Secretary of State. It would hardly be appropriate for there to be controversy over the practices and procedures adopted in relation to these crucial areas of management, since it would surely only detract from the trust and the confidence which it is vital that police and crime commissioners will need to establish with their forces and the public.
Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, I recognise the concern for good governance in the broadest sense that lies behind these new amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, since the Committee stage to ensure that the PCC and the MOPC are bound by regulations set by the Secretary of State for managing the appointment and dismissal of staff, and how they should manage disciplinary action. The question of Doncaster has come up again. I can only add that for five years I was president of my party’s Yorkshire region, so I have a long acquaintance with the problems of Doncaster. However, problems with local politics in Doncaster existed long before the experiment of an elected mayor, and unfortunately that move has not resolved those problems. But let us be clear that no magic answers lie in changing institutions in order to solve some of the underlying problems in local politics we face around Britain.
The noble Baroness is concerned with the worst case analysis of what might happen and would like to supply belt and braces for every possible way through it. What I have to say on behalf of the Government is that of course we recognise that it is necessary for a standard to be set for the conduct of the police and crime commissioner and the staff attached. The Home Secretary shares that view, and that is exactly why she will state in the protocol that she expects all parties to abide by the principles of public life set out by the Nolan committee and the core principles of the Good Governance Standard for Public Services. Furthermore, the protocol she will issue, drafts of which I know that some noble Lords have already seen, will apply to every police and crime commissioner and chief constable in England and Wales. The staff and chief constables of each force are expected to have regard to the principles and spirit of that document. The police and crime commissioner will be held to account for ensuring this by the police and crime panel and by the public.
As to setting out a regulated appointments, dismissal and disciplinary process, these matters are well established in employment law and we argue that it is not necessary to replicate in this Bill what already exists. The PCC will no doubt be held to account for the way in which staff are appointed by the PCP, including the steps it takes to ensure fairness and diversity. Further, the PCP will scrutinise appointments to the crucial statutory posts by means of a confirmation hearing, as we have already set out in another amendment. Accordingly, while these amendments are well grounded in the position they take, as the noble Baroness has already anticipated, to us they seem unnecessary. I therefore ask her to accept the assurances the Government are providing and hope that she will feel able to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Henig
I have listened carefully to the Minister’s reply, but I must confess that I have not studied the protocol in great depth. I am reassured that if it covers this area—and since early this afternoon I think we have been given an assurance that there will be a mention of it on the face of the Bill—that will provide a basis for the provision of redress or assistance of some sort for senior executives who might feel that they are facing difficulties; let me put it that way. I also take heart from the reference to the police and crime panel. We are strengthening the panel incrementally and I believe that I can now see the circumstances where the panel would be able to find ways of asking the commissioner about difficulties with senior staff and perhaps being able to refer to difficult situations in order to get to the root of them. While I think there may be some ways around this, I am not totally satisfied. We could have dealt with this better, and I do not think that it would take that much to do so. However, I sense that I am not going to be able to persuade the Government to put more in the Bill. Having voiced my concerns and having been given a partial meeting towards what I am aiming at, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Transport for London (Supplemental Toll Provisions) Bill [HL]
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Baroness Anelay of St Johns
My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the Transport for London (Supplemental Toll Provisions) Bill, has consented to place her prerogative and interest, so far as they are affected by the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.
Motion
Baroness Grey-Thompson
My Lords, I declare an interest in that I am a paid board member of Transport for London, which is a public body constituted under the Greater London Authority Act 1999. This is a Private Bill promoted by TfL. No petitions were deposited against the Bill and it was considered by an Unopposed Bill Committee on 11 November 2008, when it was amended and permitted to pass to the next stage.
The purpose of the Bill is to provide Transport for London with additional powers where TfL has made a toll order under the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 that would supplement the enforcement powers under the toll order. At present, TfL can seek authority to charge tolls by means of a New Roads and Street Works Act toll order, but the powers in the 1991 Act for the collection and enforcement of the tolls would not enable TfL to have recourse to sophisticated modern mechanisms that allow traffic to flow freely and are similar to those used to collect and enforce charges under the central London congestion charging scheme. Those mechanisms include giving motorists options to pay through the internet, by telephone or by text and to use automatic number plate recognition technology, and imposing escalating penalty charges for non-payment instead of criminal penalties.
In cases in which TfL has been authorised to charge tolls under a toll order, the Bill will enable TfL to make a supplemental order that makes provision for the operation and enforcement of the toll order. These powers to make supplemental orders are similar to those already conferred on TfL in respect of road user charging schemes under Schedule 23 to the Greater London Authority Act 1999, of which the best known is the congestion charging scheme. It is intended that the enforcement regime to be provided in a supplemental toll provisions order will be similar to the tried and tested regime currently operating in respect of congestion charging that is, of course, very familiar to all Londoners. Most importantly, that regime will be subject to the same safeguards. The principle is that motorists will be able to pay the tolls in exactly the same way as the congestion charge and will be subject to the same sanctions for non-payment with the same safeguards.
In the Second Reading debate on the Bill, the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, raised a number of points of concern. I am pleased to report to your Lordships’ House that the Bill was amended in Committee in response to his points as well as to meet other points raised by the Minister. In particular, the powers to immobilise and remove vehicles were removed from the Bill and reliance is instead being placed on the existing powers in the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2008, which were subjected to very careful scrutiny during the Bill’s passage through this House. The Bill has also been amended to make it clear that the power to make provision in a supplemental toll order to enter vehicles and seize articles can be exercised only by a constable or a person authorised by TfL in the presence of a constable. These safeguards are the same as those that apply to congestion charging. TfL had always intended that these safeguards would apply, but they are now expressly provided for in the Bill in response to assurances given to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, during the debate on Second Reading.
Transport for London first became aware of the need to modernise the enforcement powers for a toll order made under the New Roads and Street Works Act 1991 in the context of the promotion of the Thames Gateway Bridge project. It was proposed that the new bridge would be financed partly by means of tolls collected under such a toll order, and the Bill was needed for the project. However, it was also recognised that the Thames Gateway Bridge project was just one example and that there would be other cases in which TfL might wish to seek tolling powers in respect of which additional powers of enforcement would be needed. The Bill was therefore deliberately drafted in general terms so that all such cases would be covered.
As was explained to the Unopposed Bills Committee, the new mayor had a few days earlier, on 6 November 2008, released Transport for London’s 10-year business plan. Under that plan, it was determined that Transport for London would not pursue the Thames Gateway Bridge project, given the pressures on funding and concerns over local traffic impacts. Transport for London was tasked with undertaking a wider study, together with other parties, to assess the transport and land use needs of the London Thames Gateway, including undertaking an assessment of options for a new east London river crossing.
Transport for London has in consultation with local boroughs and others therefore undertaken a review of river crossing options in the area east of Tower Bridge up to the existing Dartford Crossing. The review has highlighted that the problems experienced in east London through the lack of river crossings mean that further crossings are warranted, and has identified that it is likely that a package of solutions is required, including the construction of a bridge or tunnel at Silvertown.
The Mayor's Transport Strategy, which was issued on 10 May 2010, states that the mayor, through Transport for London, will take forward a package of solutions in respect of east London river crossings, including a new fixed line at Silvertown. Transport for London is currently considering the development of the package. Consideration is being given to the tolling of new crossings to help to finance their construction. Any toll order made under the 1991 Act would require the enforcement powers contained in the Bill.
The Bill will assist Transport for London in financing the construction and operation of this important new infrastructure in London. I beg to move.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for so eloquently moving the Motion that the Bill do now pass and for any influence that she might have had in securing the amendments that she described. I am quite content with the Bill as it is now, partly because TfL is a much more benign institution under current management than it was. Where it finds levels of misbehaviour, it seems interested not in immediately slapping down fines but in exploring the reasons for it, amending signage and handing out warning notices beforehand. I find it a civilised and easier-to-deal-with institution these days. I am also comforted by the level to which the Secretary of State will be involved in granting TfL any substantial powers under the Bill. I thank the noble Baroness and Transport for London, and wish this Bill good luck.
Baroness Kramer
I shall be brief in my comments on the Bill. I was a member of the board of Transport for London when the congestion charge was brought in and chaired all the public meetings on that issue. I have been an open opponent of the Thames Gateway Bridge, so am very glad that that project has been scuttled.
I should like to ask two questions about the Bill, just by way of seeking confirmation. Do all the usual processes of planning, consultation and approval remain in place, even though this mechanism provides the funding for any new river crossing that might be tolled? Secondly, could this framework apply to other projects carried out by Transport for London? For example—since we have had many discussions on air quality—if there were to be a low-emissions zone and it was decided to toll cars that did not meet the relevant emissions standard as they entered the zone, could this framework again be used for that purpose? It is a framework that London might turn to, particularly at the time of the Olympics. Although I seek confirmation on those matters, I am very supportive of the Bill.
Lord Davies of Oldham
My Lords, on behalf of Her Majesty's Opposition, I give my full support to the Bill. It will be appreciated that all Private Bills take a fair amount of time to pass through the House, and this one certainly has. It is very good that we have reached this point of fruition today. I am very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, is reassured on the points that he raised. I am not quite sure that I can go quite so far as him in defining Transport for London as a benign institution; I hope he will acknowledge that he was reflecting from a very narrow perspective. He will know that many of us have considerable anxieties about the operations of Transport for London, and consequently “benign” is not the first adjective that comes to mind for some. Nevertheless, we certainly wish the Bill well and warmly congratulate the noble Baroness on taking it through the House at this stage.
My noble friend Lord Tunnicliffe ought really to have been at this Dispatch Box at this moment. In fact, I sought all my powers of persuasion in arguing that it should be him, because he was in at the very origins of the Bill a number of years ago when it was considered in this House. However, he is in the dizzy position these days of shadow Deputy Chief Whip, and I hold such people in such high respect that I do exactly what I am told. That is why I am addressing the House on the Bill.
I am glad that the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, raised one or two points on which reassurance will be given in the wind-up. However, certainly in broad terms, this is an enabling Bill as far as Transport for London is concerned. We are in favour of measures that give enabling powers of this kind, provided that the necessary safeguards are in place. I am pleased to see on various parts of the coalition Benches enthusiasm for the structure of congestion charges, which gives one hope that a rather more constructive approach will be taken towards certain aspects of congestion charging in the future. This Bill gives Transport for London the powers necessary to advance the cause of Londoners in crucial areas, and we are very pleased to welcome it.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it has been more than two years since Parliament last considered this Private Bill. This is therefore the first time that the Bill has been considered by the coalition Government and this Parliament.
Our capital city's transport network is large and complex, and it should come as no surprise that the promoters of this Bill occasionally encounter challenges that prompt them to seek specific powers further to those already on the statute book. This Government recognise the critical role that transport has to play in supporting London’s economy and with it the nation’s prosperity. We are continuing to invest in London's infrastructure, with Crossrail, the Tube upgrades and Thameslink all under way.
The Government are content for this Bill to pass to the other place, where it can be further scrutinised. I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, for putting forward the Bill and for the clear way in which she explained it.
Baroness Grey-Thompson
My Lords, I thank the noble Lords and the noble Baroness who have taken part in this debate. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for his support and should like to address the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer.
The mayor’s transport strategy had an impact on the passage of the Bill. The Bill was not intended to be applied solely to the Thames Gateway Bridge and it continues to be relevant to other projects. Other projects will be carried through in the usual way in terms of tolling.
The powers in the Bill are very wide, and the supplementary toll provisions order will not take effect unless it is confirmed by the Greater London Authority. Lots of provisions are in place. I am afraid that I cannot answer the noble Baroness’s question on emissions. I hope she will accept Transport for London writing to her on that matter; I am afraid that I am not an expert on that area of the Bill.
Baroness Kramer
I apologise to the noble Baroness. I should have let her know that I was going to ask that question. I am afraid that it did not come to me until the early hours of this morning.
Baroness Grey-Thompson
I thank the noble Baroness.
Bill passed and sent to the Commons.
Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill
(13 years, 5 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
“Pilot schemes
(1) The Secretary of State must—
(a) establish schemes to test the operation of police and crime commissions, including police and crime commissioners, in no more than four police areas outside London, to operate for at least four years;(b) commission an independent review to assess the impact and effectiveness of the police and crime commissions in place of police authorities in those pilot police areas; and(c) at the end of the pilot schemes, publish a copy of the final review report and lay a copy of that report before Parliament.(2) Before commencing the pilot schemes under subsection (1), the Secretary of State must make regulations to establish—
(a) the police areas that the pilots will operate in, taking into consideration the diverse demography, police resources, policing requirements and geography of those areas;(b) the terms of reference for the review; and(c) the assessment criteria that will be used in the review.(3) One of the police areas prescribed under subsection (2) must have an elected mayor in a local authority within that police area.
(4) The Secretary of State must include—
(a) a description of the consultation undertaken; and(b) a summary of representations received on;the proposals in the draft regulations to be made under subsection (2) in the explanatory notes accompanying those draft regulations.”
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, in moving this amendment, I will also speak to two other amendments in my name in this group. We come to the question of pilots on which we had a good discussion in Committee. The introduction of police commissioners alongside police and crime panels is a new departure. The House will know that we on this side of the House have many worries about the impact of unelected police commissioners in terms of the potential politicisation of the police force. We think that it would be worthwhile testing this out in a number of police force areas to see the benefits and potential pitfalls.
We discussed this in Committee, as I said, and I was struck that a number of our former commissioners of the Metropolitan Police expressed some reservations about pilots. I well understand the kind of reservations that they were expressing. Essentially, they were saying that pilots create uncertainty among the other forces and chief constables. I have seen government proposals in relation to other public services where proposals are made and you have what are sometimes called pathfinders. You then implement changes in some areas over a couple of years. People in other areas are then not sure when they will come on to the tranche that will introduce changes to their particular part of the country, and clearly there are therefore some uncertainties. But this is such a major departure from the current arrangement that some uncertainties are worth it.
Overall, we do very well by our police service. There are issues and problems in some areas and there are no doubt areas where the efficiency of the force could be improved, I do not doubt that. But many advances have been made in the past 10 or 20 years, not least in the effectiveness of the forces and the strong relationships that they have built between themselves and their communities, particularly at neighbourhood level. There are considerable risks in moving away from that. Pilots would be a great chance to try this out, see what some of the problems are and see, too, some of the advantages. We could learn from that and then look to general introduction.
I hope that I will find some sympathy around the House for this suggestion. After all, if one were looking for a way through the potential disagreement between this House and the other place, I would have thought that pilots might be one way in which we could find some agreement. I beg to move.
Lord Howard of Lympne
First, I take the opportunity of associating myself with the remarks just made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, about the improvements in the effectiveness of the police over, I am very glad he had the grace to say, the past 20 years—otherwise, it might have been a little more difficult for me to agree with his sentiments. He started off by saying 10 years, but he modified that to 20 and he got it right in the end. I am happy to associate myself with that tribute, but of course there is always room for improvement. The purpose of the measures before your Lordships is to improve the accountability of the police.
I am opposed to pilot schemes for two reasons. First, I very much doubt, and I think it is difficult to make the case, that pilots will prove any true test of the effectiveness of the measures contained in the Bill. The Bill proposes to introduce an element of democratic accountability into the way in which the police operate. The essence of democracy is that it does not lead to uniformity. Democracy is the enemy of uniformity. In a democratic system, some elected police and crime commissioners will be more effective than others: that is in the nature of a democracy.
It would be very difficult to draw general lessons, which is presumably the purpose of pilots, from a few pilots, whatever attempts are made. I recognise that attempts have been made in the amendment to make them representative, but there is no such thing. There cannot be any such thing as representative arrangements. Whatever arrangements are made and whatever areas are chosen, it will not be possible to draw general lessons from whatever happens in the particular pilot schemes that would be set up.
Secondly, there is the element of uncertainty. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, had the grace to refer to this. Amendment 7A proposes that these pilots should last for at least four years and then there should be an independent review of them. I hesitate to suggest that this is simply a delaying tactic or that the noble Lord has in mind, in effect, a wrecking amendment. Far be it from me to make any such suggestion but this is to contemplate a delay of some six years—taking “at least” four years, then adding an independent review and the time to examine and reflect upon the consequences and results. That is six years of uncertainty for the police service. That would not be doing it or the community at large any kind of favour. For both those reasons, I urge your Lordships to reject these amendments.
Lord Dear
My Lords, I rise in very much the same vein. I have this flight of fancy when I see the word “pilots”. I think of pilots, then test pilots, wind tunnels, test flights, circuits and bumps, and all the risky business that goes on in the world of aviation. This is a risky business as well, even in an allegorical sense. I am deeply opposed to the concept of pilots. Having the greatest possible respect for the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, I know that this is not a wrecking amendment. It is advanced for the best of reasons but, as has already been alluded to, it would effectively be a wrecking amendment to the Bill. It would certainly not be helpful.
I, too, could come up with a number of reasons why we should not pursue the course that is suggested in the amendment. I will go through four or five quickly. For a start, would the areas that are selected for the pilots welcome or resist the attention? Either reception would skew the result. Those who welcomed it would make sure that it worked; those who did not would probably go in the opposite direction. That skewing of the result is certainly something to which one should pay attention.
Despite the standpoint that they take, would the areas welcome the change and the possibility of then going back to square one if the pilot was unsuccessful? It would be change and more change, all over a period of four or six years. What of the uncertainty in the remainder of the country? I will not labour the point because it has already been clearly made by the previous speaker. What does it say of the parliamentary process as a whole? Is it that we cannot make our minds up here and get the job done correctly in your Lordships’ House the first time?
The most important point has of course been mentioned several times in Second Reading, in Committee and again now. What of the effect of the uncertainty on the police service itself? The service is struggling hard—and well—to come to terms with all the pressures of modern life and the current economic situation that we find ourselves in. ACPO has not declared a position on this, quite correctly. I respect its diffidence but I would put private money on the fact that the police service does not want to see a pilot. It wants certainty, to know where it is going and to know that now. In any case, it has enough uncertainty swirling around its ears.
I will not weary your Lordships any longer on this. I have made my position quite clear. We should strive very hard in your Lordships’ House to get the Bill right first time and implement it in whatever form is eventually, democratically decided upon. A pilot would be a retrograde step.
Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington
My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said, I have some concerns. I apologise for my colleague and noble friend Lord Condon not being here. I speak on his behalf as well as my own. Some of the concerns about how this will affect the police service have already been discussed. They have been described in a way that we would follow.
My noble friend Lord Condon and I worry about the fact that a pilot scheme of certain forces will not show what happens to the rest of the more than 40 forces, which will not get a real feel for it. The other issue that we raise is that the interaction with the national and international strategy must see the whole panoply of this new scheme and strategy there, in terms of the PCCs and PCPs. Unless you have that, our feeling is that there are uncertainties around it. To take a biting issue in terms of taking out certain things, but then not dealing with the whole issue at one time, would be counterproductive.
As has already been said, we have discussed the uncertainty around what is happening with the police service at other stages in your Lordships’ House. In the next six-to-12 months to two years, the police service will go through a massive period of change. There is no doubt, as my colleague and noble friend Lord Dear said, that the police service is best when it knows that it is acting with certainty. This will lead to uncertainty. My noble friend Lord Dear is also absolutely right that if you tell certain police forces that this is a pilot scheme, some will decide that it will work and some may decide that it will not. For that reason, we do not really support this particular amendment. We have reservations about it.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, I have made it clear throughout that I want to see the model that is in the coalition’s programme for government implemented in full. My noble friend Lord Shipley quoted the relevant section from the agreement earlier, including the reference to the “strict checks and balances”. I fear that that term is losing its potency with repetition, but I say again that checks and balances are essential because of the dangers of the concentration of power in the hands of an individual.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said that he hoped to find some sympathy around the Chamber. He certainly finds that from me, but he also finds a little surprise. I do not know whether this was due to relaxing over supper, but he made a very low-key introduction to the issue. Perhaps this debate has come upon us at an unexpected point.
Now that we have seen the Government’s proposals in response to the very thoughtful and powerful points made in Committee, we have seen that the Government have moved, and I am happy to acknowledge that. It is always gratifying, and sometimes disconcerting, to see one’s own name linked with that of the Minister on an amendment, but there has been a good deal of movement. However, there has not been movement on the range of issues about which concerns have been raised, nor in many cases do the government amendments go far enough.
I am speaking personally for myself and for my noble friend Lord Shipley, rather than for the I know not how many who are ranged behind me at the moment—attendance is not bad, actually, for 8.50 pm —but this is, I stress, very much a personal viewpoint. Many of the checks and balances that are needed centre around the police and crime panel’s scrutiny role, on which our amendments at this stage of the Bill, as at the previous stage, would spell out what we believe that scrutiny should comprise.
As for checks, I think that a body needs the ability not just to say politely, “We don’t agree”, nor to say, “and we require your reasons”, but sometimes to say, “No”, if it is to act as a check. When any model is working well, there is no need to use the whole armoury, but I do not believe that it is possible to legislate for harmony and co-operation. One tries to set up the model to encourage such co-operation, but one cannot require it. Mechanisms are needed to provide that no.
Of course, it would be impertinent to suggest that we have identified all the necessary, or even desirable, checks and balances, but I must say that I would feel more comfortable if more were proposed in the Bill. Therefore, as an alternative, I think that we need to look to experience. The noble Lord, Lord Howard, said that we cannot draw general conclusions because of the diversity across the country, but it seems to me that, unless the framework is robust enough to cater for these matters—
Lord Howard of Lympne
With great respect, my noble friend misunderstands me. It is not because of the diversity around the country but because of the nature of democracy, and the diversity that democracy inherently produces, that I do not believe that general lessons can be learnt. That is an important distinction.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, I would accept that: democracy is quite untidy. Liberal Democrats have often said that it is not a bad thing to have a patchwork, with different arrangements for the delivery of service in different places and to different communities, which may be geographic or may have other characteristics. For instance, with regard to Wales, we have heard that it is important to have similarity because the provision of the service crosses the border. I think that we need to be reassured that the underlying framework, which may then grow different bits, is robust enough to serve the whole of England and Wales.
I tabled an amendment on pilots at Committee, and I acknowledged that the proposals could be approved. For instance, to have an independent review and report would be a good thing, as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, rightly suggested. He also made the point—this is a question to him—that, if the experience from the pilots was to be utilised, there would have to be a mechanism whereby the Secretary of State, probably, could tweak the arrangements within the Bill. I am not sure that I have found that in his amendment, but he may be relying on the arrangements around commencement; I do not know.
At the previous stage, I asked the Minister whether there was any other mechanism that the Government might suggest for—to use the words that I used then—assessing and evaluating the model, but she did not answer the question. I am not sure whether she was unable to answer it, but for me that question still remains. I understand that there is a concern about certainty, but I do not understand that there is a concern to achieve certainty about a model over which there still hang so many anxieties. Speaking for my noble friend Lord Shipley and myself, we support the amendment.
Lord Beecham
I confess to being in two minds, having heard my noble friend’s argument for the case, supported by the noble Baroness, but also the objections to the proposed course from the noble Lords, Lord Howard, Lord Dear and Lord Stevens. I can see the force of the objection to the prospect of a limited number of pilots stretching over a number of years, but it is not so much a question of democratic principle being at risk from such an exercise. The concern is around precisely the issue of checks and balances. If it goes through and we have an elected police commissioner, that is relatively straightforward; it is what happens in that context over time that will tell whether the checks and balances that some of us feel are inadequate are sufficient to meet the case. Actually, a limited number of pilot examples might not demonstrate that. The noble Lord has a point in that respect.
To develop a theme that the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, advanced, I wonder whether the practice of what is a major constitutional change in the way in which the police service in this country is run could be reviewed after a period of three years. I do not mean on the basis of a number of pilots, but we could take a considered view after three years, say, and look at whether the expectations are being fulfilled. I accept that the Government are genuine in their belief that they have got it right or are getting it right on checks and balances. Without a formal sunset clause, perhaps we could have an indication that that situation would be reviewed and adjustments made, if necessary, around the areas of concern that many noble Lords have voiced about the practice of this new structure, with its implications for accountability and effectiveness, both at local level and in connection with the other concerns about national strategies and the like.
It is less of a formal legislative process that I am suggesting might be considered and more one in which it would be possible to revisit these concerns, taking a broad look across however many authorities will be involved in any new structure and with a view to fine tuning, as it may be, or making perhaps more substantial changes in the light of what will by then be a general experience, which might tell us whether the hopes of Ministers in proposing these changes are being fulfilled. Would the Minister care to consider whether such a process might be acceptable to the Government without necessarily changing the terms of the Bill?
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, I do not support this amendment. I said at Second Reading that some noble Lords might want to propose piloting elected police and crime commissioners because it is a radical change from the current system, but I do not believe that that is what is needed. After we have finished properly scrutinising this Bill, we need to get on with it and to do it. We need to implement this change. People want stronger local political leadership in their fight against crime, and they want it now.
I referred at Second Reading to some research that my noble friend Lord Ashcroft, the founder of Crimestoppers, commissioned, which showed unanimity between police officers and the public in their views on crime. One conclusion that that research showed was that they shared a common view on the lack of local accountability.
Recent public attention has been focused more on the justice system rather than on the policing system. In raising the justice system, I am thinking particularly of the Dowler family last weekend. The reason why I raise this is because most of us have never suffered the kind of violent crime of which that family were victims, and we have never had to testify against defendants accused of crime in a court of law, but their experience resonated with people because it illustrated a wider sense of unfairness felt by the law-abiding. It made people ask who is on their side. Tonight we are not talking about the justice system—we are talking about policing—but through this Bill and through implementing elected police and crime commissioners, we have the opportunity to provide an answer. So I do not want us to wait years to address this weakness; I do not want us to wait years to answer people’s questions. I want us to get on with it. For that reason, I do not support piloting and I do not support this amendment.
Baroness Henig
My Lords, one reason I so enjoyed 16 years of being involved in the governance of policing was that it gave me the opportunity to debate a range of issues with senior police officers and to disagree with them on a number of occasions. Indeed, I disagree with them on this occasion and that holds no terrors for me because that is one of the things I most enjoyed about it. In case noble Lords suspect that I overstep the mark on occasion, I should tell them that the governance arrangements in Lancashire were, according to the inspectorate, the finest in the country. We had an equilibrium of discussion, if I can put it in those terms, and I would want to have the same sort of equilibrium this evening because there are some strong arguments to be put in favour of pilots.
While hearing the arguments that my police friends and others have advanced, there are some counter-arguments. First, the believers who support this reform have been very few in number. On this major area of change, I think I am right that six people on the Benches opposite, at most, have engaged in supporting this change, apart from the Ministers. With honourable exceptions, people have in general not joined in this debate. I except the noble Lord, Lord Howard, who has indeed spoken out in favour of these reforms. He apparently had a great conversion in 2005. I am not sure whether that was before or during the election of 2005 but clearly there was a great epiphany and a conversion took place.
Lord Howard of Lympne
May I assist the noble Baroness? It was the product of long examination of the operation of the police authorities, which were set up pursuant to the legislation for which I was responsible, and the acute sense of disappointment I felt at their failure to live up to my expectations.
Baroness Henig
I hear what the noble Lord says and I am sure that that is the case. The noble Lord, Lord Wasserman, has spoken up, as did the noble Baroness, but look at the record. As I say, if six Members on the government Benches—certainly, on the Conservative Benches—have spoken up in favour of the legislation, that is all and it is a very small number for a major change in policy.
It is not surprising to me that that is the case. How could the Benches opposite deny, for example, that party politics will play a much greater role in policing? That is so irrefutable that it cannot possibly be denied. How could they deny that chief constables are going to be subject to much greater pressure on policing issues, both operational and non-operational? No, they cannot refute that. People talk about a protocol but just consider some of the forceful Home Secretaries whom we have had in the past 10, 15 or 20 years. Now consider that some of those Home Secretaries might consider that being a commissioner would be a glorious end to a good parliamentary career. Just imagine some of them now as commissioners. I suggest to Members of this House that they are going to put their views to chief constables in a fairly forceful way.
We talk about “operational” and “non-operational” but, frankly, with that kind of expertise and forcefulness coming from those who could be commissioners in the next few years, chief constables will notice a great difference between the new regime and what they have been used to. They will be subject to greater pressures. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, has already said, thus far we have seen few checks and balances on the powers of commissioners. I am not expecting to see many more, let alone strict checks and balances, so the case for pilots is very strong.
There are even greater arguments in favour of pilots. First, there was no pre-legislative scrutiny, which, for a change of this magnitude, there should have been. It would have made a big difference and a lot of the arguments which we have been having in the past few weeks would have been resolved at that stage. With a constitutional change of this magnitude, to have no pre-legislative scrutiny was, I believe, a great omission. That is one argument. We also know that there was a consultation by the Home Office and that there were over 900 responses. We have never been told how many of those responses favoured what was being proposed and how many opposed it. We can draw from not being told that the great majority of people who responded to the Home Office consultation were opposed. I assure the House that had they not been we would have heard that a great majority were in favour. That, again, is worrying.
As we have gone through the Bill in detail, some very tricky issues have emerged. We have not yet reached the issue of corporations sole, although we soon shall. I know my noble friend Lord Harris will entertain the House with a riveting account of corporations sole and all the difficulties that they will raise. We do not know how they will work. We know that they will lead to problems and to staff issues. That is one area of uncertainty. We know that relations between the commissioners and the PCPs are embryonic at this point in time. We do not know how these bodies will work together. We do not know how the PCPs will be best equipped to undertake scrutiny, not just of the commissioners but of the policing that is delivered in their locality. There has been a great reluctance to give panels the sort of powers that would enable them to have a much more constructive role than the one they have at the moment.
We also know that in some areas we will go back 20 years. For example, we know that there will be no lay involvement in the appointment of deputy chief constables and assistant chief constables. I am long enough in the tooth to remember that when chief constables made these appointments themselves there were enormous difficulties. I for one am not happy to go back 20 years in that regard—at least, not without seeing how it would play out.
We are also being asked to agree to this legislation when the national policing landscape is not yet complete. We do not know how things will play out nationally. We do not know what will replace the senior appointments panel, so we do not know how future candidates for chief officer appointments will come forward. We know nothing about that; there is a complete lack of information at the moment. The framework around senior police appointments is not yet in place. We are being asked to take it on trust. We have not seen any of this. For all those reasons, pilots would make a lot of sense. They would enable the final legislation to iron out many of these issues and to work much more effectively.
What really bothers me is the inflexibility around this, which is driving this legislation. There is a sense that the Government are saying, “We must get this through. We can’t have any deviations or amendments. We mustn’t listen to this; it is all a plot to derail this great reform”. I am sorry but that is not true. There are many of us in this House who care about policing and want to make this work. The noble Lord, Lord Howard, might be surprised to hear this. If there are to be changes to policing, I want them to work. I can see some merit in what is being proposed. I do not reject it out of hand but it can be improved. That is why I support pilots. What bothers me is that I am prepared to be flexible but there is no reciprocal flexibility on the Government’s side. It worries me that the people who are driving this through want to do so with very little change. There has been some change; I see the Minister looking at me. There were changes yesterday. I welcome them and hope that there will be more. However, at the moment the message that has reached me is that there must be no deviation—that this must go through and there must be elections next year. There is a sense that this is being rushed through.
These changes are the most sweeping changes to policing that we have seen in modern times. I am not saying that they should not happen. However, it will be a recipe for disaster if we do not get them right. Policing is too important and sensitive an area to risk courting disaster. To have a pilot—perhaps lasting not four years but two or three—and at least to trial some of these things would do our duty to those who come after us. I am worried that we will introduce things that will irreversibly change the face of policing. Since I do not believe that policing is broken, I shall take a lot of convincing that these changes will be marvellous without at least testing them first. That is why I support pilots.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, conjures up a fascinating prospect of former Home Secretaries and Secretaries of State standing for election as police and crime commissioners. Given what the Minister has told us today with regard to the bar on Members of this House standing for such positions, we can look forward to the possibility of the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Lympne, becoming the elected police and crime commissioner for Kent.
Lord Howard of Lympne
I rather thought that the noble Baroness was inviting me to a contest.
Lord Harris of Haringey
I am sure that if the noble Lord were to move to Lancashire, that could be arranged. Although I think that that would be an interesting and enticing prospect, and no doubt incredibly scary for the chief constable of Kent, I wonder whether the damascene conversion that the noble Lord, Lord Howard, has described to us several times would not have been made easier had his original proposals for police authorities been subjected to a series of pilots. He could then perhaps have discovered at an earlier point that the model he initially favoured was flawed.
Lord Wasserman
My Lords, as a former professional social scientist I welcome the enthusiasm in this House for pilot studies. However, like so much else in life, there is a right place for pilots and a wrong place. I am afraid that the circumstances we are discussing are very much the wrong place for pilots. I hope that your Lordships will allow me to explain why I say this and to do so by reference to the findings of academic experts.
The use of pilots in political or social research is discussed at some length in a book which I commend to your Lordships which can be found in the Library entitled, Research Methods in Politics. The book begins by pointing out that,
“there are times when … a trial run or pilot has considerable advantages. In particular, to test the data collection instruments such as the questionnaire and the sample design”.
Indeed, the Home Secretary herself is a great believer in the use of pilots in the appropriate context. In a speech that she gave about two months ago—I am sure that some noble Lords will have seen it—she announced not one but two new pilots. The first was related to her wish to allow the police to charge more offences themselves. She said:
“We will pilot doubling the number of charges transferred to police officers”.
She added that if the pilot was successful and the scheme was rolled out fully, it could save up to,
“40,000 hours of police officer time”.
In the same speech she announced that the Home Office was working with ACPO to ensure that best practice on domestic abuse processes was effectively shared by all forces. She said that the next step was to pilot these new proposals, and that if the pilots were successful they would be rolled out across the country.
However, the circumstances we are discussing are nothing like those mentioned by the Home Secretary or the academic experts. They are classic examples of circumstances where pilots are not appropriate and lead only to a waste of time and money. According to the experts, the classic example of the inappropriate use of pilots in a political or social context—that is what we are talking about—is to compare jurisdictions over time and/or space, a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Howard. The experts state:
“There are a number of reasons why comparisons can turn out to be meaningless. Most famously, the condition known as ‘too many variables, not enough cases’. This is a reason why experimental control is rarely an option in political science. Additionally, comparative research is affected by two manifestations of the so-called travelling problem: that is, neither theoretical concepts nor empirical measurements are consistent across temporal and/or spatial settings. In other words, they do not ‘travel’. This diminishes the possibility of controlling for the effect of variables other than those of primary interest”.
Translating the jargon, what these experts are trying to say is that it is impossible to make meaningful comparisons between different times and places because there are simply too many factors in play. However, your Lordships do not need academic experts to tell you that the sort of governance arrangements such as those that we are discussing cannot be subject to scientific evaluation.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, to what does the noble Lord attribute the huge reduction in crime in this country during the previous Government’s administration?
Lord Wasserman
There were many factors, including effective policing. I do not deny that, but the limit in the reduction in crime has not been reached. Many larger reductions—
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, all the indications from preliminary figures are that police authorities are reporting that crime is starting to increase.
Lord Wasserman
I have seen that, and I am sure that we will discuss it on another occasion. However, there is plenty of evidence for the changes that individual elected mayors in crime-ridden cities in America have been able to make when they put their mind to it, and when they provided their police chiefs with the political cover and resources to do the job.
Lord Beecham
How does the noble Lord distinguish the examples that he has given from those that he said would not be appropriate in the varying conditions in this country? He has just told us that there are too many variables to allow pilots to take place, yet he is citing New York and America as exemplars, and therefore effectively as pilots, for the system that he wishes to introduce to this country. Is that not correct?
Lord Wasserman
This is not about using a particular bit of legislation in particular areas and comparing them in an academic research environment. The examples that I am giving noble Lords are of real change achieved by real chiefs with real mayors in real cities.
Lord Harris of Haringey
The core of the noble Lord’s argument against pilots is that he is cautioning us against the spatial differences between different parts of this country and the temporal differences—because this is a different time. Now he is saying that you can draw from experience 3,000-plus miles away, which is quite a big spatial difference, under a different legal system and so on. The temporal difference is that the improvement under Mayor Giuliani happened a number of years ago. I am not quite sure where this argument is taking your Lordships.
Lord Wasserman
This is not taking us in a circle. There are lessons that can be learnt from experience everywhere. We know this. We are talking now about piloting, as a series of limited experiments, a particular bit of legislation that is to be reviewed by an inspector of constabulary under research circumstances. That is quite different from learning lessons on general principles from experience around the world, rather than from particular bits of legislation.
The main point that I want to make about the proposed pilots is that any change—even change 3,000 miles away—takes time to take effect. It very much depends on relationships between individual PCCs—a point that has already been made—and individual chief constables. These changes and these relationships will take time to develop. One of our issues is with the time it will take to put these pilots into effect. Your Lordships will remember that, some time ago, in a debate in this House about fixed-term Parliaments, many noble Lords made the point that four years was far too short a time to judge the success or failure of the Government. Now we are saying that four years will be sufficient to judge the effect of these new governance arrangements on the level of crime and anti-social behaviour in this country. I am sure that at the end of the four years, people will say that there has not been enough time to judge the changes. Also, some people will talk about the Hawthorne effect: the fact that the pilots have been successful simply because others have studied them. That is another example of how pilot studies can reach misleading conclusions.
For all those reasons, I do not think that, at this stage, a pilot is an appropriate way to judge the effectiveness of the changes. I suspect that what some noble Lords really want is not a programme of pilots but a staged roll-out programme. That is quite different. Although I have serious practical concerns about that, it is not the same as pilots, which are bits of political or social science research. We are now talking about pilots which must be evaluated before rollout begins, which might, as my noble friend, Lord Howard, pointed out, be as long as six years. We are discussing pilots. That would lead to a waste of time and money. It will prove nothing but will lead to dangerous uncertainty in an area of our national life—policing and public safety—where there is a well recognised and overdue need for change.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Browning)
My Lords, as the Bill no longer contains the Government’s model for directly elected police and crime commissioners, the effect of accepting the amendments would be to delay implementation of that policy until after long and unnecessary pilots and the completion of a review by HMIC. As we do not support the new model, and will seek to overturn it when the Bill returns to another place, we cannot support the amendments. I have always been very clear with the House during Committee that the Government intend to overturn the deletion of the publicly elected police and crime commissioner from the Bill.
The noble Baroness, Lady Henig, referred to the number of speakers from the government Benches. I have had many conversations with colleagues on the government Benches. Having now been in the House for nearly a year, I appreciate that on both the Benches behind me and those in front of me there is an independence of spirit, regardless of party affiliation. I am convinced that if Members on the government Benches felt strongly opposed to what the Government are doing, they would certainly be standing up to speak. One cannot judge the number of speakers as a reflection of support or otherwise for the Bill. When a Division has been called to date on the Bill, government Members have turned out through the Lobby, as they did earlier tonight, expressing their support for the Bill.
I shall spend some time explaining why we do not support the amendments on directly elected police and crime commissioners. We have heard many speeches throughout the course of the Bill so far saying that this is a radical change; that we should pilot it before rolling it out; and that we need to ensure that we all understand how it would work in practice before we roll it out nationally. We still are not clear what happens if some forces go ahead as pilots, leaving the remainder behind. Put another way, on what basis will we decide who will be denied democratic control of their policing—in other words, on whom do we experiment? What about issues that arise across forces? Serious crime does not only occur within the force boundary. Interoperability across forces is key to tackling those issues, but with pilots, there would be two different forms of police governance running alongside each other, likely to cause confusion and delay in working across force boundaries. This would be confusing for police officers and for the public. It would also be unnecessarily costly.
For many changes in policy or process a pilot can be a good thing, as we have heard from some of the contributions tonight. However, it is clear that a pilot cannot work effectively when we are talking about policing governance and democratic accountability, as my noble friend Lord Howard of Lympne pointed out. Equally, we know that senior police officers share our concerns about pilots. We heard from the noble Lords, Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington and Lord Dear, who described this as a risky business. It is a risky business, and I believe that it would create an unequal situation that could potentially be quite damaging. The noble Lord, Lord Stevens of Kirkwhelpington, also spoke for the noble Lord, Lord Condon, in setting out his concerns to the House. I recall that in Committee the noble Lord, Lord Condon, said that this change needed to be,
“resolved in the quickest and best way possible”.—[Official Report, 24/5/11; col. 1698.]
Also, when evidence was given to the Public Bill Committee in the other place, the Assistant Commissioner, Lynne Owens, said:
“My nervousness about pilots is on how you would choose what those pilots are. One of the concerns of the chief police officers at the moment is how it aggregates to the whole. If you were to choose all large forces or all small forces, you might not fully understand the impact”.—[Official Report, Commons, Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill Committee, 20/1/11; col. 106.]
Questions have been raised about the whole philosophy behind the Bill and about the concept of democratically elected police and crime commissioners. I shall not rehearse the strong evidence base for these reforms, having spoken to them at earlier stages of the Bill. They are based largely on HMIC findings, and I set out in Committee that HMIC has already provided more than enough information to justify them. Therefore, I believe that we should not delay these urgent reforms and distract HMIC from its already difficult and important task of inspecting the police by asking it to use valuable and finite resources to evaluate government policy.
To my noble friends who have spoken on this issue—and I understand that people hold very strong views about it—I point out that it was made perfectly clear in the coalition agreement that we would have PCCs during this Parliament. A pilot goes against both the spirit and the letter of the coalition agreement.
However, it is not just Conservatives and Liberal Democrats who have identified the need for reforms to policing governance; I believe that the Opposition support this concept. Only two years ago, when the shadow policing Minister in the other place was the policing Minister, he said that,
“only direct election, based on geographic constituencies, will deliver the strong connection to the public which is critical”.
He went on to say that,
“under the current system, 93 per cent of the country has no direct, elected representation. This is why we have proposed the Green Paper model; so that people know who to go to and are able to influence their policing through the ballot box”.
I fully accept that the former Labour Government, in presenting this Green Paper, were thinking of a different form of direct accountability from the one that we are considering in this Bill. However, the principle of direct accountability was there. In fact, the previous Government twice proposed a form of direct accountability for policing but they did not proceed with it. They encountered opposition, so I am sure they will understand that we have taken this policy forward with the knowledge that this matter has for a very long time been considered to be necessary by Governments of different political hues. This Government have brought it forward and now intend it to proceed.
The coalition Government share the view that police authority governance needs to be changed and that our democratic form of accountability is important. Change is needed and it is needed now. That is why we do not intend to be derailed by the suggestion of a pilot. I have to put it to the House that the real reason for these amendments is opposition to our preferred model.
The bottom line is that pilots would not be a helpful way to road-test the policy. My noble friend Lord Howard of Lympne used the words “wrecking amendments”, although he was cautious in suggesting that that was the motivation behind them. I do not suggest that these are wrecking amendments, but the outcome of such amendments if passed would have the same effect. You cannot have two systems of police governance running side by side. You cannot say to one area that they have a voice in democratically electing a PCC but say to another that they do not. It cannot be said that there is no mandate for these changes; it is set out quite clearly in the coalition agreement.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I am sure we would all agree that this has been a very good debate, and I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in it. The noble Lord, Lord Howard, and I would agree that there have been advances over the past 20 years. He said that he thought there was room for improvement. I agree with him, of course. However, I hesitate to agree with him that the need for improvement is such that the current government structure should be ripped up and that a potentially very dangerous option should be put in its place.
I listened with great interest to the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, who talked about public appetite for change. I have seen no appetite whatever for party political police chiefs to come into the UK in the way in which I think this Bill will lead us.
The noble Baroness has given us the good news that noble Lords can stand for election, and we have already speculated on the elections in Kent and Lancashire. Thinking of the West Midlands, if I were fortunate enough to stand, to be selected and to be elected, the idea that I would stay out of operational policing issues when faced with the legitimacy of being elected is naive. An elected police and crime commissioner will become the police chief of a force. Some noble Lords who support this have said openly that that is where they expect the journey to end. That is why we are so concerned about these proposals.
This is rather like Lords reform; I am sorry to refer back to our debate last week. I support reform of your Lordships' House but I disagree with most of the noble Lords who have spoken in its favour, particularly from the Liberal Democrat Benches, because they and Mr Clegg seem to be proposing that an elected House of Lords will carry on in the same way as the appointed House of Lords. That is nonsense. The election of a House of Lords will change the dynamic of this place considerably, and that is what I would expect to happen with elected police and crime commissioners. After all, what is the point of proposing that unless it is to happen? Surely we are not seriously talking about simply taking the police authorities as they are, adding a dose of democracy and thinking things will be great. No. We are on a journey on which elected people will run police forces in the future. I am convinced that that is where we are going to end up, so I think there is merit in testing this out.
The noble Lord, Lord Howard, said that democracy is the enemy of uniformity and that you cannot draw a general lesson. I follow that argument, and I understand that if you are looking at the relationship in, say, four areas between a police and crime commissioner and a chief constable, those are going to be distinctive areas and there are going to be distinct circumstances, but I would have thought that there are still lessons to be learnt that would enable the Government to take note and make adjustments so that if the system were then rolled out it would be in the light of experience. I am not proposing a wrecking amendment. I am not beholden to four years. I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, tabled an amendment in Committee that proposed two years. I would always be open to discussion about this.
The noble Lord, Lord Wasserman, is widely regarded as the architect of all this, and I am not surprised that he does not want pilots. He said that you cannot evaluate this in advance, but he then asked us to take this huge leap in the dark based on experience in some parts of the US. I have yet to hear any convincing argument about why this change is going to be made. Over the past few years, we have seen a dramatic reduction in crime levels in this country. We have seen huge improvement in the relationship between police forces and communities, particularly at the neighbourhood level. Why is this being ripped up to make this huge, potentially damaging change in our police forces and their relationship with the public? I have yet to understand what the party opposite has against police forces that it wants to do this or to hear a coherent argument in favour of the changes.
The Minister said that the coalition agreement provides for this. It does not. The coalition agreement is an agreement between two political parties. It does not have the status of a manifesto. It is very important that noble Lords understand that. I echo the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, and the noble Baroness because my understanding was that this reform was to be accompanied by strong checks and balances. So far, those checks and balances are very weak indeed.
The Minister then said in relation to pilots that we would have different forms of police governance. What do we have in local government? Indeed, the Localism Bill gives us even more forms of governance. I am not an expert on it, but my understanding is that if councils want to, they can go back to the good old committee system—a blessed memory to those of us who remember the allotments sub-committee of Oxford City Council, on which I was not qualified to serve but I have always wished that I had been so appointed. We are well used to different forms of governance within the same structure. I do not see why that should differ in relation to police forces.
I have been a serial culprit as a Minister in restructuring public services. I cannot remember how many NHS Bills I took through in restructuring the health service. The one thing I learnt from that is that it might be better to test ideas out before tearing things up by the roots. In the absence of pre-legislative scrutiny, the noble Baroness had to produce all those amendments on Monday night, after discussions with noble Lords, because this Bill has been constructed too hurriedly. It has not gone through pre-legislative scrutiny and I suspect that more amendments will be necessary when we are able to analyse the full effect of her amendment. There is a very convincing case for some trial and evaluation. I am not going to put this to the vote tonight, but as we move on to further stages of the Bill, I think that in order to resolve differences between this place and another place, pilots might have their place in the sun.
Lord Harris of Haringey
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, first I must apologise to the House. This is an extremely complicated group of amendments and I am sure that the rapid rate at which your Lordships are leaving the Chamber is an indication of how much people are looking forward to this particular discussion. I also want to apologise for the fact that because it is so complicated I have got the groupings slightly wrong. In this group we should be debating Amendment 84, which is in the next group; Amendments 204 and 205 would more comfortably sit with Amendment 203 at some much later stage, because it is a really quite separate debate; and I am not going to speak to Amendment 25 because some of the other amendments more than cover that point.
Therefore, I am speaking to Amendments 8 to 13, 24 to 28, 30 to 32, 65, 84, 268 and 269, 274 to 290, 294 and 295. These all relate to creating corporation sole status for chief constables and the Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis and deal with the implications arising from that. They would allow the local policing body to delegate functions to a chief officer, to enable the day-to-day management of police resources without having to create a separate legal identity for chief officers. The amendments also deal with audit implications, in that chief officers do not need to employ a separate statutory financial officer to undertake this function as all audit responsibilities will remain with the local policing body.
The other amendments confirm that chief officers will not be able to enter contracts, acquire or dispose of property and land or borrow money in their own right, but that they could do so under the terms of a delegation agreement from the local policing body. There are also amendments that would deal with the status quo in relation to police staff; they provide that although the employing body is the governing body, chief officers would have direction and control of all staff employed solely to assist the police force. Finally, there are amendments which deal with accounting and audit issues. Again, they reinstate the status quo and provide a simplified system of governance.
This is a brief summary but I want to explain why these are so critically important. We are in real danger here. Without these amendments I fear that we will create, frankly, little understood structures that will prove unworkable in practice. When we come to the review that the noble Baroness has just promised us in 2017—or rather, I fear, several years before that—we will realise that these arrangements are unworkable and we will have to revisit them. What is more, they will produce additional paralysing bureaucracy—something that I thought this Government did not think was a terribly good idea. It will produce unnecessary duplication—again, something I thought this Government did not agree with. What is worse, it will produce confusion about who is responsible and accountable for the £12 billion police budget.
I understand—at least I think I do—that the Government’s motivation in these proposals is to separate clearly the functions of the governing body from that of the force. I am not convinced that that will actually be the end result. On the contrary, I believe the proposals will result in a confused landscape rather than a simplified one. There is a great deal of concern, as demonstrated in Committee in this House, about the whole concept of corporations sole. I am sure that Ministers are looking forward to explaining it to us yet again in a few minutes. At the moment, the Bill, as amended, contains proposals that the governing body—the police commission or whatever it will be called—is a corporate body and only chief officers are corporations sole. But if, as many of us expect, the Bill should revert to PCCs being corporations sole once it returns to the other place, my comments about the principle of using a corporation sole would apply equally to PCCs.
Baroness Henig
I support all my noble friend’s arguments. In doing so, I have to say that I struggle with all this. I have tried to understand it; I have studied extremely hard. I would hate, however, to have to be in that police authority environment and explain all this to the police and crime panel, and explain to local people exactly how all this is working out. I would find that extremely difficult. As my noble friend Lord Harris said, this has led to enormous fears among police staff, which is a problem. We should not be increasing insecurity among the people working in the policing environment.
I am almost led to make the point that while the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, and I do not always agree on things, we have one thing in common; both of us, every now and again, are less than fulsome in our praise of the Home Office—rightly or wrongly. I have great concerns about this legislation and what has been drafted. That might not be the fault of the Home Office, but somewhere along the line there are problems with this.
Because of that, the Minister will know that I have written to her in conjunction with my noble friend Lord Harris and the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, to try to put our concerns on the record. We are looking for a meeting with the Minister to try to thrash all this out. It is an extremely difficult and complex area, but it is an important area. If we get it wrong there will be a big impact on a lot of people who might suffer as a result. We want to avoid that. In her response, will she let us know the timescale for her reply to our letter and whether there is a possibility of talking about this in more detail? This would be a productive area to explore further.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, before the Minister responds, I want to thank my noble friend Lord Harris, who made a powerful speech, and echo what the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, just said. Although the Government have responded to a number of concerns, which is welcome, so far there has been no real recognition of some of the risks of the governance structure that has been put in place. Whether that is because the government lack confidence in it and are therefore not prepared to engage or whether they really do not understand the legitimate concerns, I do not know, but I am puzzled by the response. I know that if I, as a government Minister, proposed something like this, the Conservative Opposition at the time would have attacked very forcefully this kind of proposal.
The corporation sole model is flawed for the reasons that my noble friend gave and in relation to the issue of staff and the bizarre process, now, of staff transfers between the PCC and PCP—with all the uncertainty that that raises. It renders me almost speechless to understand that this bizarre corporate structure is being proposed at a time when the police service is going through 20 per cent cuts. There is a reduction in the number of police officers and we know that some of the most experienced police officers were retired because that was the easiest thing for chief constables to do. We know that chief constables are being taken off the front line and put into the back office because back-office staff have been made redundant.
I pose my only question rhetorically: when will another police reform Bill have to be put before Parliament? If we cannot have pilots, I suspect that problems will arise within about nine months of elected police commissioners coming into being. The public will have serious concerns in the huge powers being given to individuals. Then the noble Baroness will bring forward a Bill to put right the problems that are being identified as we go through your Lordships’ House. If only the Government would pause for just a little time to reflect on these concerns.
Baroness Browning
My Lords, it is quite right that I have received a detailed and lengthy letter from the noble Lord, Lord Harris, the noble Baroness, Lady Henig, and my noble friend Lady Harris. I am of course happy to meet them to discuss the contents. I have asked officials to draft a reply, which I have yet to see—it has only been received recently. I will do my best to speed that up as much as possible now that we are on Report. Some of the issues raised in that letter are of a very technical nature so I am not able to respond to it from the Floor of the House tonight. I hope that they will accept that I will try to get a meeting organised. I understand that there are issues around this. People want to feel that they confidently understand the position if they are relaying it to third parties.
I begin with this question of the corporation sole. One thing that the Bill seeks is to give chief constables the opportunity to employ their staff. That is at the heart of operational independence. Chief constables will welcome the fact that they have that control. In order for them to do so and also carry out other functions that involve resources, it is necessary for them to be a corporation sole. I remind the House that a corporation is a body that has its own legal personality, distinct from that of its members. This means that a corporation can own property, enter into contracts and take part in legal proceedings in its own capacity. Its assets, rights and liabilities are those of the corporation rather than of its members. Typically, corporations have more than one member. These are of course known as corporations aggregate. Local authorities are one example. However, corporations can consist of only one person—known as the corporation sole. This is so that they can carry out those same transactions that a corporation can carry out—but it is not the individual personally who has the legal responsibility for that, it is in their role as the corporation sole. It would be quite inappropriate—for example, in the case of employment contracts—for the chief constable to personally enter into an employment contract with each and every one of his employees. As a corporation sole, he then has that legal position, rather as a corporation in commercial terms.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
I am not quite sure how this works. Does the chief constable of the PCC have to divide their head into two? I understand what the Minister is saying in terms of legal definition but at the end of the day the fact is that the corporation sole is the same person as the individual. Does she not see the huge power that is being given to individuals without any corporate governance structure around it? The House has rejected the sensible idea of non-executives. Does she not see that that is open to abuse? The world is full of examples of how, where individuals have huge power without checks and balances, it leads to one thing: corruption.
Baroness Browning
My Lords, I understand what the noble Lord is saying, but that is why in other parts of the Bill we have set out clearly what the appropriate standards should be for the chief finance officers: both the chief constable and the PCC will have separate chief finance officers, who should not be combined. If those positions were combined, one could well see that that could lead to the sort of difficulties that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has just identified. It is important that, as corporations sole, they are quite separate entities. There is a very clear distance between them in terms of that accountability.
Lord Beecham
Although I am a lawyer, I must confess that I struggle with the concept of the corporation sole. In listening to the noble Baroness outlining the position, there appears to be a dualism here: the chief constable acts in his own right and he also functions as the corporation sole. What happens if the chief constable is unable to function? He might be suspended or incapacitated or—heaven forfend—he might die in office. What happens then? Where is the corporation sole?
Baroness Browning
My Lords, I will come back to the noble Lord on that point, but my understanding is that the chief constable is the body corporate in the same way as a corporation would be. Although the chief constable or the PCC would be the corporation sole, they carry with them the corporate requirements that would apply in any other situation as far as a corporation was concerned. It is not personal to them; they are not personally legally obliged, for example, to issue contracts in their own name with their own personal liability, so the fact that they may be off the scene for some reason or other, such as the noble Lord has described, does not necessarily destroy the corporation sole as a legal institution. The legal personality—the legal institution—that the corporation sole brings about protects, obviously, the personal liability of the individual concerned, but that would not mean that everything would collapse in the event that the individual was not personally on the scene.
I am looking to see whether the noble Lord perhaps knows where I am coming from on this, but I hope that he does.
Lord Beecham
I am not sure. Somebody has to take decisions in the name of the corporation sole, and I am not sure whether that concept extends beyond the individual. Perhaps the noble Baroness could write to me about that—upon taking better legal advice than I can proffer.
Baroness Browning
I am sure that that is not the case.
The point is that it is the legal personality that the corporation sole invests in the chief constable and the PCC. For example, if the chief constable was for some reason unable to carry out his or her duties, the legal entity of a corporation sole would still remain, and whoever stepped in to cover the policing operation while that chief constable was indisposed or was waiting to be replaced would automatically have the protection of the corporation sole. It is the personality of the institution, not something that an individual has personal liability for.
I am not quite sure how I can explain this any more clearly. I feel that it is quite clear in my own head.
Baroness Browning
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. I am not a lawyer, as he knows, but I have in a previous existence been a businesswoman, so I am used to dealing with corporate matters per se. Therefore, I feel that I have a clear understanding of what the provision is trying to do.
The amendments by the noble Lord, Lord Harris, to Clauses 5, 19 and 20 and Schedule 16 would limit the police commissioner’s status as a corporation sole to employment purposes only or, alternatively, remove the corporate status entirely. Instead of a corporation sole, the amendments would allow PCCs to delegate functions to a chief officer, which the Bill currently prohibits.
The noble Lord has asked that Amendment 84 be added to this group. I think that the intention of Amendment 84 is to discuss the ability of the PCC to delegate to the chief constable. I get the point that he is making, to get rid of the status of corporation sole and reintroduce the idea of delegation of functions from the PCC to the chief as is the case with the police authority and the chief. This continues the severe lack of clarity between the bodies that results in poor accountability. As I have just said in the beginning of my remarks, it is important that there is clarity and separation between the two. The amendments to Schedules 4 and 16 would remove the requirement for the commissioner to have a qualified chief finance officer on his or her staff.
I will address the amendments on corporations sole first, but I have to say to the noble Lord, Lord Harris of Haringey, that I do not quite follow his concerns about the medieval basis of this. In this country, we have an understanding of the common law, which is at the heart of our criminal justice system and has been developed over hundreds and hundreds of years. The fact that something has a long history does not necessarily mean that it is not functional. I have to tell the House—and I must admit that I was rather surprised to find this—that I am a corporation sole, as a result of being a Minister of State who is able to sign off public expenditure. I have a particular personal interest now in making sure that I understand every single aspect of this role, so I can assure noble Lords that it is not something that would be regarded as archaic or medieval. I do not see myself in my role as a Minister of State as archaic or medieval. At the same time, we should not denigrate this role, which is widely used—we have already had some examples of it—just because it comes from our ancient history.
The Government are clear on our need to establish chief constables as corporations sole. It is that legal status that allows them to employ staff in their official capacity—a vital function in the context of providing greater autonomy over the day-to-day management of the force.
During our Committee debate, the noble Baronesses, Lady Henig and Lady Hamwee, and the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, also tabled amendments to limit the ability of a chief officer to enter into contracts so that it applied to employment matters only. These amendments would have removed the chief officer’s ability to enter into other contracts and agreements unless the chief officer had obtained the PCC’s permission to do so. The Government recognise fears, which have been expressed, that we may have given chief officers too much unfettered power. We agree that the powers that we are giving to chief officers, along with their corporate status, should be subject to appropriate safeguards. We agree that to give chief officers an unfettered power to enter into contracts and agreements, potentially committing the force to multimillion pound deals, does go too far.
In government Amendments 13, 15, 33 and 34, we still believe that in the interests of flexibility, chief constables should be able to enter into contracts other than simply those in relation to the employment of their staff, but we believe that it should be subject to a requirement to obtain the authorisation of the PCC. We believe that there can be flexibility in this; the authorisation could be given in general terms—for example, a PCC could give a general consent for a chief constable to enter into any contract in relation to a particular kind of service, such as provision of forensic services, which are often required as a matter of urgency in an investigation. Or the PCC could give a general consent for the chief constable to enter into any contract with a value less than a specified amount.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
I realise that the Minister is introducing an amendment at this late hour and that this is our only opportunity to discuss it, but the provision gives huge power to the police and crime commissioner. It gives a total hold over the chief constable in budgetary terms. I know that there is some tension here between those who think that that is a right way to go and those who do not, but what is clear is that the PCC is in total control. This amendment actually adds to that. That is why it would have been much better for the Government to have constructed a corporate governance model around the chief constables which would have allowed them to have much greater freedom over their own budget. In essence, the construct here is that the chief constable will become the deputy to the PCC. I wish that the Government would come clean on this.
Baroness Browning
My Lords, that absolutely is not the case because we have listened carefully to what noble Lords have said on this matter. Concerns were expressed, which we looked at carefully, and we have tried to strike a balance here. If I look at the current situation in police forces, in some forces—not all, I hasten to add—it is the practice for the annual budget to be identified and handed over in advance at the beginning of the year. We do not believe that is an acceptable practice at all. We have therefore tried to find a way in which we can enhance the autonomy of the chief constable but at the same time, particularly bearing in mind that the biggest part of the budget will most likely be the employment or staffing budget, make sure that with these powers the chief constable has some checks and balances in here.
Again, on the working relationship with the PCC, one would expect these matters to be discussed so that they could make sure that there were no problems. I have just described one example. It would be quite inappropriate for the chief constable to constantly have to keep going to the PCC to get authorisation for services that are clearly needed at short notice. The chief constable would know exactly what sort of services they were and in initial discussions with the PCC would say, “Look, these are the things that we need to access rapidly. Can we come to an agreement?”, and draw up their own needs, together with the PCC. That would be at the heart of the relationship between those two people.
I believe that in putting in some checks and balances we have gone a certain way to addressing the concerns that were expressed by Members of this House, without constraining the chief constable in a way that meant it would affect them operationally. For example, the PCC could give a general consent for the chief constable to enter into a contract with a value less than a specified amount. If they came to those agreements at the beginning of the contract, this would almost certainly reduce the bureaucracy required. The important point is that the PCC would have control over what the chief constable could do, in the same way that the chief constable can only act, at the moment, within the scope of the delegated authority given by the police authority. It is not as though chief constables have a completely free run on these matters at the moment with police authorities.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, what is now becoming clear is that political control is to be exercised over the budget by one person, the elected police and crime commissioner, without any effective corporate governance at all. That is the problem with the corporate sole: it is the same person. Of course, I understand that there is the entity of a corporate sole and the individual, but they are the same people. In a sense, the noble Baroness has said, “We have rebalanced this because of concern that the chief constable has too much power over the budget in the terms of the original Bill”, but we are now transferring that to an elected party politician without any corporate governance safeguards whatsoever.
Baroness Browning
My Lords, if in practice the PCC discharged his or her duties in respect of coming to a practical and non-bureaucratic agreement with the chief constable, I would expect the panel to talk immediately to the police and crime commissioner about the way they were conducting themselves. When the noble Lord talks about checks and balances, this is exactly the sort of thing where one would expect the panel to call that commissioner to account. It would soon become known to the panel if the arrangement between the PCC and the chief constable over these financial arrangements and budgets was causing such a constraint that it was affecting operational activities.
It is not that this is a completely open situation, where nobody would call the PCC to account. Later in the Bill, we have tabled additional amendments that give far more access for the chief constable to the police and crime panel, which would be a very good thing. I am sure that if the chief constable thought that the financial arrangements with the PCC were affecting operational independence or causing problems, they would soon make that known to the police and crime panel.
Baroness Browning
My Lords, the whole point is that this is transparent. These are not things done behind closed doors, which nobody else will know about. While the panel is there, doing its job, we expect it to act, if it identifies such a problem, as with any other problem between the chief constable and the PCC that causes operational difficulties on the ground. The panel should then call the PCC to account for an explanation and to resolve the matter.
I do not agree that there is no check or balance on the PCC in this matter if there is a good strong panel. In a way, this reflects what police authorities do today. I understand the point that the noble Lord is making: this is an individual elected person. However, this is not much different from the way in which the police authorities would step in if they perceived a problem in their force area at the moment. I shall move on from this but I am sure that we will come back to it.
The Government’s view is that there need to be clear lines of accountability for the public. That requires the public to know what the respective responsibilities of the PCC and the chief officer are. The current system of delegation does not allow for this. Inspection has shown that sometimes even police authorities are unclear as to where the divide is. HMIC has said in its report on inspections of police authorities:
“It is critical that police authorities maintain clear division between their governance responsibility and the chief constable’s responsibility to lead and manage the organisation”.
Establishing two corporations sole, and prohibiting delegation means that it will always be clear who has which responsibilities. This a positive move forward. However, chief constables should not have unfettered powers, and this is what we have sought to address. Therefore, I hope I can persuade the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment and to support government Amendments 14, 15, 33 and 34.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on how she has conducted herself in this, and on her mastery of the niceties of this issue. Having said that, I am afraid I do not entirely agree with her position. She said that I am being unfair—I am sure that is better than being naughty—in complaining that this is a medieval construct. However, it is a medieval construct: it is rooted in the system that sought to avoid priests acquiring property that properly belonged to the Church. I am delighted that the Government have not suggested that we should expand on this medieval construct by, for example, requiring that all chief constables or police and crime commissioners, when they have been elected, be celibate. It might be good in one or two instances but I am not sure that it would be entirely helpful.
The point is that this is still, despite the Minister having discovered that she is a corporation sole, rather a rare construct. The one example—that of the Children’s Commissioner, who has recently been created as a corporation sole—says that this is not a sensible way forward. I do not believe that there is any other circumstance in which you have two corporations sole, one responsible to the other, with two chief financial officers with statutory auditable responsibilities, existing together. I am sure the noble Baroness would tell us if there was such a case. I do not believe that there is a single other structure in the United Kingdom that does that. If I am wrong, I look forward to the noble Baroness interrupting me to tell me. When we have the meeting that she has promised on this matter, perhaps we will be able to go through that in more detail. I appreciate that the Government’s amendments are helpful but they do not solve all the problems.
I do not think that we can take this much further tonight. I was rather tempted to try noble Lords’ patience by dividing the House at this time of night. I am sure that the government Chief Whip would be thrilled if I were to do that as it would reward her troops who have stayed here for many happy hours. However, I do not propose to do so because I take very seriously the noble Baroness’s offer of further discussions. Given the amount of toing and froing between the government Front Bench and the officials’ Box during this brief debate, I rather suspect that the Front Bench is not entirely sure that we have the balance absolutely right. Under those circumstances, it may be necessary for us to return to this matter.
I keep saying that I think it is in the Government’s interest to postpone Third Reading until September to allow for more detailed consideration of some of these points. Otherwise, the danger is that they will store up enormous trouble on these issues. On the basis that the Minister has offered to meet us to discuss the details of this matter, and that we may have the opportunity to discuss it further at Third Reading, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Baroness Browning
Baroness Browning
“(2A) But the chief constable may not borrow money.
(2B) Sub-paragraph (2)(a) does not require the chief constable to obtain the consent of the relevant police and crime commissioner in order to enter into a contract or other agreement with a person—
(a) by virtue of which the person becomes, or is, a member of the police force’s civilian staff, or(b) which otherwise relates to the person’s membership of that civilian staff (including the terms and conditions of the person’s membership).”