Convention on Domestic Workers

Andrew Selous Excerpts

Wednesday 29th June 2011 Westminster Hall

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) on securing this important debate. I, too, attended the launch of the Centre for Social Justice inquiry into modern-day slavery and human trafficking. When I first heard at that event that the United Kingdom had opted out of the convention, I must admit that I was worried. I did not know why we had done that. On the face of it, it sounded an odd thing to do and it concerned me greatly. However, I have to say to the hon. Lady and other hon. Members that, when I looked more deeply into the issue, I realised that there were reasons why the United Kingdom did so.

The hon. Lady concentrated heavily on the issue of human trafficking, which she and I have made common cause on and no doubt we will continue to do so. I point out to her that the United Kingdom has recently signed the European convention on human trafficking, and I am happy to admit that I was one of the Members who lobbied our Ministers heavily to do so because I thought it was the right thing to do. I join her in saying that slavery and human trafficking is a modern evil; it is a disgrace that it goes on in our age. Some 27 million people are in slavery around the world, not just in domestic labour, but in bonded labour in factories and in prostitution. She is right to be concerned about the issue.

From the hon. Lady’s remarks, hon. Members might have gained the impression that the ILO convention would have an impact purely on those evil employers who traffic people to be their domestic workers. In fact, the implications of the ILO convention are much wider than that. The United Kingdom already provides significant employment protection for domestic workers; in fact, in general, it makes no distinction between domestic and other workers. It is worth reminding hon. Members that domestic workers benefit from being paid the national minimum wage. They receive sick pay, paid annual leave and protection from unfair dismissal. That already exists in United Kingdom law. We do not need an ILO convention. Those are rights enshrined in law by this Parliament. What we need is greater enforcement. We need to seek out and identify employers who are behaving badly.

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

Is the hon. Gentleman saying that, if we have something that is better than an ILO convention, we should not sign up to it? That is what he seems to be implying. He is implying that, if we have something better, then we do not need it. Surely, if we have something better, it is not problematic to sign up to it.

[Andrew Selous]

If the hon. Lady will allow me to develop my argument a little further, she will understand what I am saying. I just wanted to make the point regarding the protections that all of us are rightly concerned about. I have taken to task many employers in my constituency and elsewhere who have not behaved properly towards their workers. We need to enforce the law that we already have. I am looking for reassurance from the Minister, as, I am sure, are many hon. Members. There is much in the text of the convention that he will be keen to apply. He will want to ensure that we root out evil employers who treat their domestic staff in the way described by the hon. Member for Slough. There is not one of us here, including me, who wants to see that continue.

There is much in the convention that is good, but there are one or two areas that are problematic. One problem in particular is that it applies to other groups of workers that the hon. Lady did not even mention in her remarks. She read out the list of countries that did not sign the convention, including the United Kingdom. What she did not tell us was that a number of countries did sign it, but then said that they were not going to ratify it.

The United Kingdom has, quite rightly, very high standards when it comes to international agreements. We are a country of our word. If we say that we are going to do something, we do it. We play cricket, we believe in the rules and we follow them. It is pretty dishonest of many other countries, which she did not name, to sign up to the convention and then say that they will not be ratifying this bit or that bit.

[Fiona Mactaggart]

Canada, for example, said that it would find the convention difficult to ratify. I read the whole of the report, but I did not read that any country said that they would not. They said that they would struggle to ratify it, and I think that that was simply being honest.

[Andrew Selous]

I am making a slightly different point. Some countries ratified the convention, but then said that they would not enforce it. I just think that that is dishonest. The United Kingdom could have gone along and signed, got a pat on the back, not have had the aggravation of having this debate today, and then quietly not done anything about it. I am proud that, as a country, if we say that we will do something, we do it—that is important.

[Jim Sheridan]

The hon. Gentleman is right to identify the protection that workers have in this country. Does he understand, however, the frustration of people who are frightened to raise these issues with their employer for fear of losing their jobs? What would his suggestion be for people who are not being paid the minimum wage, and who are being mistreated in the workplace? What does he suggest that they do?

[Andrew Selous]

I am not sure that the convention actually gives them any particular rights that they do not have under employment law. I suggest that they contact Kalayaan, as the hon. Member for Slough said. There needs to be an education campaign. With evil people treating domestic workers like that, we need to find every opportunity to help them to realise what rights they already have.

[Mr Davey]

Before my hon. Friend moves on, his point about the number of countries that are members of the ILO not ratifying is very important for hon. Members to understand. Only one of the 25 conventions agreed in the ILO in the 20 years up to 2006 has achieved more than 30 ratifications, although there are 183 members of the ILO. That speaks volumes for how some member states approach voting on conventions and subsequent ratification.

[Andrew Selous]

I am grateful to the Minister for giving us those points of detail, so that they are now on the record.

The workers whom the hon. Member for Slough did not mention, and the reason that I have come to speak in this debate today, are people such as child minders, carers, housekeepers, cleaners and nurses who work for many of our frail and elderly constituents. The worry is that the imposition of criminal health and safety law in people’s private homes could mean that some of our frail and elderly constituents could be forced out of their homes and into residential care. All I would say to hon. Members is that they can come here and share my passion, and the passion of the hon. Lady, against the evils of human trafficking—we are as one in this Chamber on that issue. If she looks closely, however, at the text of the convention and its implications, inspectors could come into our constituents’ private homes, examine the rooms, gadgets and layout of the house, and perhaps tell a frail, elderly lady that her home is not fit to have a carer. That lady could be forced to move into a residential home.

The Government are right to be wary of some of the unintended consequences that they believe the ILO convention could have. As I said earlier, it is important for the Government to enforce those parts of the convention that are important and that we can agree on. There is, however, another group of perhaps 250,000 or 300,000 workers who we have not heard about—child minders, carers, cleaners and housekeepers. We have not heard what the effect on their employment could be if the enforcement of this ILO convention is not got right.

[Mr Gregory Campbell]

The hon. Gentleman is outlining potential consequences for the United Kingdom. Is there any evidence of any of those problems happening in the countries that have signed the convention?

[Andrew Selous]

This is a new convention that is being signed, so neither the hon. Gentleman nor I know what will happen. I come back to my general point.

The hon. Member for Slough was good enough to say that she was not necessarily impugning the motives of the Government. I am just trying to explain, as I understand it, the rationale for the United Kingdom to hesitate. It is not because the Government, or any members of it, are in favour of employers treating their staff wrongly. On the contrary, as a Government, my hon. Friend the Minister and my hon. Friends here today will say that we hold no candle for rogue employers. We want employers to treat workers fairly and properly, but we think carefully before we sign.

The hon. Lady spoke just about human trafficking. From her remarks, we would not have thought that the convention would apply to many of our constituents who work as carers, cleaners, nurses or housekeepers for our frail and elderly constituents who need extra help. All I say to hon. Members—who I think have come to the Chamber for honourable and proper reasons, and for reasons that I think we all share—is that there are wider implications to this issue. There could be unintended consequences. I will press the Minister to ensure that we enforce the convention—we can do this ourselves, we do not need to sign all parts of it—where we think that it is right, and where we think it bears down properly and legitimately on unscrupulous employers. I believe that he will be able to give me that reassurance when he comes to reply to the debate.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

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[Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)]

First, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) for securing the debate.

May I start by telling a story? We need to bring alive the human face of what we are talking about. It is about a young Nigerian woman who was deserted by her father when she was five, went to live in Benin and came to this country as a domestic servant. She told, in her own words, of her experience:

“I would wake up at 7 am to start the work, bring the 2 children to school and the youngest at 11.30 then picked them altogether at 3.00 pm. I did the general housework while the children at school. At night, I had to wait for my employer to open the door even at midnight though she had a key. I didn’t remember any single moment that she wasn’t angry, the moment I saw her, I felt very scared already.”

She then talks about how her employer effectively held her captive:

“She took my suitcase, kept my passport. Bank card and National Insurance card and did not give my salary for 2 months which was £250 per month only. My employer shouted non stop at me and pulled me out of the house. As I had nowhere to go, I knocked and knocked the door but for three days and three nights, my employer never opened the door. It was raining and winter, I was cold, hungry and scared in the dark.”

The teacher of the two young children then advised the young woman to escape from such a form of modern-day slavery. In her words:

“I had nowhere to go so I went to the Park and slept there for nights. I was very scared but there’s nothing I could do, I was all alone in the dark, I thought of my mother and sisters. How I wish they were just near me that at least I could hug them. The sky was very dark, I could see the beasts coming out from the dark, they were wild and heartless creature living in a beautiful Rose Garden”—

she was hallucinating—

“they would come out and attack helpless life wandering around like me. I couldn’t see any hope but I prayed and prayed, this was all I could do.”

The young woman went to that admirable organisation, Kalayaan. She was then supported—I am proud to say this—by my former union, of which I was deputy general secretary; for many years, the old Transport and General Workers Union, now Unite, has championed the cause of domestic servants in this country.

I will cite figures from a union survey of hundreds of domestic servants in London, whose length of service varies, but whose answers reveal a depressing pattern. Fewer than half of them were issued with written terms and conditions of employment. Almost half received itemised payslips with their wages and, typically, they worked long hours, aggregating well beneath the national minimum wage. In terms of treatment in the home in which they are working, fewer than a third received sick pay, with the majority forced to work when they were unwell, and a third of them were injured in that workplace, their employer’s home.

[Andrew Selous]

The hon. Gentleman has read out an appalling list of employer abuses, but does he not agree that they are already illegal? He went through a list, but we have legislation dealing with almost every issue that he read out. What we need is greater enforcement and vigilance to apply the law that we already have.

[Jack Dromey]

The law is not properly enforced but nor are our Government giving leadership. What message does it send if we are in a sorry minority worldwide in not signing up to the convention? I will come to the point made by the hon. Gentleman in a moment but, if we look at the grounds cited by the Government for refusing to sign the convention, they include objections on the basis of working time and health and safety, yet the evidence is absolutely clear: most individuals concerned work unacceptably long hours for less than the minimum wage and often in unsafe conditions, given the injuries they sustain.

All of this has a depressing pattern. In relation to the convention, the Government have failed to give moral leadership—that is what is necessary—or to show determination to enforce the law. They also dragged their heels over the European Union directive on sexual trafficking, and took a minimalist approach even when finally accepting their responsibilities. My hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Jim Sheridan) is in the Chamber. He led on bringing the Gangmasters Licensing Authority into being but, sadly, the effectiveness of another organisation with an outstanding track record in combating modern-day slavery is being watered down by the Government. Now, it is the ILO convention.

When the convention was debated, one of the TUC representatives was a woman called Marissa Begonia, who is a member of Unite. She and the other worker representatives hoped that our Government would accept their responsibilities, as had, she said, virtually all the other employer and governmental representatives. She thought, “Surely, our Government must share in this consensus that there must be effective action internationally and nationally.” She was utterly dismayed that the country to which she is devoted failed to sign up.

In conclusion, it is utterly extraordinary that our Government, led by our Prime Minister, who quite rightly last week told China that it needed to accept its human rights responsibilities, did not sign up to the ILO convention, but China, America and virtually every other Government in the world did. We are in a sorry minority of those failing to accept their responsibilities. We are talking about desperate circumstances facing good women, of whom I have met many over the years. I remember a particular meeting, with 30 of them. They were people with bright eyes and hope on their faces, who had come here often to support their families or villages back home. They thought that coming to and working in this country would be a brave new world, but they came here and were treated utterly shamefully. This Government and this House should be on the side of such people. What this Government have done is to abrogate completely their moral responsibility.

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[Andrew Selous]

On the minimum wage, does the hon. Gentleman agree that we do not need to sign the ILO convention because we already have legislation on that? It is already illegal not to pay the minimum wage, and rightly so.

[Grahame M. Morris]

My hon. Friends have indicated that many domestic workers feel intimidated, and are unwilling to resort to traditional means. I do not accept the hon. Gentleman’s assertion. Many of his arguments were deployed against the UK Government signing up to the convention on human trafficking, and in relation to basic health and safety. I do not accept that domestic workers are already covered by effective legislation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Fiona Mactaggart]

The Minister says that most domestic workers benefit from paid annual leave.

[Andrew Selous]

They should.

[Fiona Mactaggart]

I am sure that they should. I want to know how the Minister knows that most actually do, because in my experience, it is very likely that most do not. I do not know how he knows that most do.

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[Mr Davey]

I am not suggesting that, because health and safety inspectors do not raid people’s homes.

I ask colleagues to reflect carefully on the legal implications of the position they are taking. The convention would undermine the Government’s policy to support independent living, which includes offering personal budgets in the form of direct payments to people receiving state-funded care. In line with Government policy, social care is increasingly being delivered in the recipient’s own home, and more than 150,000 people are currently working as social care personal assistants in private homes. That policy was begun by the previous Government, and we support it.

[Andrew Selous]

I am glad that my hon. Friend has mentioned the personalisation agenda. Does he agree that many of our vulnerable constituents who employ people are quite worried about their obligations as employers anyway? They are not evil people, and they just want their care, but they are quite worried about the implications of being an employer in their own homes.

[Mr Davey]

Indeed. That is why previous Governments, understandably, did not choose to extend domestic law in the way proposed in the convention; they had the choice, but they did not do that.