House of Commons

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Commons Chamber

Thursday 2 December 2010

The House met at half-past Ten o’clock

Prayers

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Oral Answers to Questions

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Commons Chamber

The Secretary of State was asked—

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

2. What steps he is taking to encourage sustainable local travel.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

6. What steps he is taking to encourage sustainable local travel.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip Hammond)]

Our commitment to sustainable local travel is evidenced by our decision to establish a £560 million local sustainable transport fund. We will shortly set out the criteria for bidding for the fund, and we will publish a White Paper next month setting out the policy initiatives that we will take forward in supporting local authorities to deliver sustainable local travel.

[Julian Smith]

I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. One of the biggest concerns for many people in rural constituencies such as mine is the future of local bus services. What reassurance can he give to my constituents that the particular needs of rural communities will be truly taken into account in the new funding formula?

[Mr Hammond]

It is not a new funding formula. The local sustainable transport fund is a fund to which local authorities can submit bids, so if they have innovative schemes to support rural bus services they will be able put in bids to the fund. The Minister for Local Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), has been working with bus companies and the Local Government Association over the past few weeks to ensure that the guidance to local authorities on the distribution of funding for concessionary fares does protect rural bus services, and he has achieved a major advance in ensuring that rural bus services are protected.

[Andrew Bridgen]

In a constituency such as mine, which consists of towns and many villages but no railway station, the local bus service is absolutely essential in ensuring that our villages remain vibrant hubs and do not become merely dormitories. Does the Minister have any plans to review the 90% law, whereby the local authority has to provide access to a bus service for only 90% of the population?

[Mr Hammond]

We have no plans to review the rule.

[Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab)]

Local transport and the bus service, in particular, is essential for many people, and of course it needs to be sustainable, but does the Secretary of State agree that cuts of 20% to the bus service operators grant will not only lead to fewer bus services and higher fares, but push people back into their cars and, therefore, do nothing for sustainability?

[Mr Hammond]

No, I do not. The hon. Lady will recall that prior to the spending review there was a great deal of speculation that the bus service operators grant would be abolished altogether, and the bus service operators warned of significant fare increases and cuts to services if that were to happen. I am pleased to say that we were able to achieve a cut of only 20% in the BSOG, and the operators indicate to us that that should not lead to a loss of services or to significant fare increases.

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

3. What recent discussions he has had with the Mayor of London on the future of the South London line.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip Hammond)]

There have been no recent discussions between the Department for Transport and the Mayor of London regarding the South London line. We are aware that officials from Transport for London have been discussing their plans to mitigate the loss of the South London line service, following its replacement with the new East London line services through Southeastern.

[Simon Hughes]

The Secretary of State’s announcement last week about London Bridge and Thameslink is hugely welcomed by all our communities, but the one qualification, of which he is probably aware, is that it might have an adverse impact on use of the South London line. Will his Department be positive and constructive with the Mayor of London and local authorities to see whether we can resolve the one remaining piece of the jigsaw-problem, so that everybody can be 100% happy—rather than just 90% happy with a little way to go?

[Mr Hammond]

I am aware of the concerns about the loss of the South London line service. As my hon. Friend knows, the Mayor of London asked for the alternative proposal of a Victoria to Bellingham service to be dropped in favour of providing additional financial support to the East London line extension, but I am very happy to talk to my hon. Friend and to other hon. Members who are concerned about the matter to try to ensure the best possible provision of services within the constraints that will exist at London Bridge and Clapham Junction.

[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

May I express my astonishment that the Secretary of State has not had a discussion with the Mayor of London about the chaos on London’s transport and, indeed, throughout the country? Will he tell the Mayor to stop swanning around in Switzerland, get back here and get a grip? When will he and the Minister get a grip on the transport chaos in this country?

[Mr Hammond]

The question was about the South London line and my answer was that I had not had any recent discussions with the Mayor of London on that issue. I do, of course, have regular discussions with the Mayor of London on all sorts of subjects and will continue to do so. I suspect that the right hon. Gentleman is out of touch with the mood of the British public, who are concerned to make the best possible fist of Britain’s bid for the 2018 World cup.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

4. What steps his Department is taking to promote cycling as a means of transport.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)]

We set out our commitment to sustainable local travel, including cycling, in our decision to establish a local sustainable transport fund.

The spending review made available £560 million over four years. It will be for local partnerships—local transport authorities working with their communities—to identify the right solutions for their areas in bidding for funding. Bids involving cycling will be well placed to capitalise on the objectives of the fund to help create growth and cut carbon.

[Caroline Lucas]

The axing of the highly cost-effective body, Cycling England, wiped out the arrangement whereby money was effectively channelled into school and workplace projects that are run by charities such as Sustrans and CTC. What is the Minister’s plan B to ensure that cycling charities and campaigning groups, such as those in my constituency, can continue to work with schools and businesses to deliver cycling’s many benefits? How will he know if that plan B is working?

[Norman Baker]

I am happy to say that Bikeability, one of the main schemes delivered by Cycling England, has been retained at a national level. Funding for it will be top-sliced from the local sustainable transport fund. We are in regular contact with organisations such as Sustrans to ensure that they are plugged in. I assure the hon. Lady that bids to the local sustainable transport fund will be regarded more favourably if they have involvement from voluntary community groups, such as the one that she has described.

[Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)]

The cycle to work scheme has involved some 400,000 people over the past decade. It was recently put in jeopardy by a ruling of Revenue and Customs. What representations will Ministers make to their Treasury colleagues to ensure that that important scheme is not jeopardised?

[Norman Baker]

I am aware of the value of that scheme in encouraging cycling. I have received representations from hon. Members about the scheme, but I hope that the concerns are unfounded. I assure my hon. Friend that I wrote to the relevant Treasury Minister three or four weeks ago. I will ensure that he receives a copy of the reply.

[Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)]

The hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) made a very good point about people’s concerns over the responsibilities of Cycling England being returned to the Department. The accepted wisdom is that cycling is good for health, reduces congestion and reduces emissions. There has been an explosion in cycling, partly because of the £140 million that was pledged by the previous Government for 2008 to 2011. However, there are anxieties about the future of cycling. Will the Minister be more specific about how the Government will monitor the amount of money that is available and the effectiveness of the spend, because the concern, as the hon. Lady said, is that the Department has taken its eye off the ball?

[Norman Baker]

I am happy to assure the hon. Gentleman that the Department has not taken its eye off the ball. Cycling was mentioned as a priority in the coalition agreement and £560 million is a substantial amount of money for a local fund, by any degree. Bikeability is being retained. On monitoring, we will ensure that public money that is allocated to local authorities is well spent. Indeed, we are sponsoring a new indicator to measure the response that we get to money that is spent on cycling.

[Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)]

I wish that I had got on my bike to get here this morning, rather than relying on Transport for London. I am sure that all hon. Members agree that it is vital that young people learn how to cycle. Will the Minister therefore clarify what has happened to the £5 million of Bikeability funds that he claimed previously would be administered through school sport partnerships, now that those are being abolished?

[Norman Baker]

There is £11 million for Bikeability in this financial year, which is available to local highways authorities and school sport partnerships. Bikeability funding will continue for the rest of the Parliament, as we have indicated. We are funding 275,000 Bikeability level 2 training places for children this year and a further £500,000 is available in bursaries for the training of cycling instructors. It is clear that our commitment to cycling is undimmed and that we have a plan in place to deliver on that.

[Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)]

5. What recent discussions he has had with local authority leaders on the future of funding for major local authority transport schemes.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip Hammond)]

Officials have written to all relevant local authorities, enclosing the document “Investment in Local Major Transport Schemes”, which was made available to Members of this House on 26 October and which sets out the position on the future funding of major schemes. Detailed discussions are ongoing.

In the longer term, I have made a commitment to consider the options for a much greater devolution of capital budgets and prioritisation decisions for local major schemes and will in due course discuss the best way forward with local authorities and local enterprise partnerships once they are established.

[Lilian Greenwood]

I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. As he knows, there is deep concern about the decision to postpone improvements to the A453 in Nottinghamshire. There is an appetite locally, across all parties, for exploring ways to retrieve the situation, and it has been suggested that a regional growth fund bid could be made to contribute to the cost. Would the Secretary of State welcome such an approach? Will he facilitate the participation of the Highways Agency in assisting local partners to explore such a possibility?

[Mr Hammond]

As the hon. Lady knows, the A453 is a Highways Agency scheme and not, strictly speaking, a local authority major scheme. It is not the kind of scheme that was primarily intended to be a beneficiary of the regional growth fund.

I have written to the hon. Lady on this subject and indicated that we will be looking at Highways Agency schemes that are not currently prioritised for commencement in this spending review period, with a view to identifying those that will be accelerated as first reserves, as it were; inevitably, programmes sometimes slip and there is a requirement for additional schemes. We will be looking at that in the new year.

[Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD)]

Would the Secretary of State be willing to meet the local authority leaders of Devon, Torbay and Teignbridge, who are united in wanting to see improvements to the A380—namely, the south Devon link road and a bypass around Kingskerswell?

[Mr Hammond]

I understand that the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), has already met local authority leaders in the area. If I could give my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay (Mr Sanders) a piece of advice, it would be that he and his local authority colleagues need to work on the scheme with a view to getting the cost down, so that the total cost-benefit ratio improves. That will make it much more likely that the scheme will be able to be funded from central Government funds.

[Graham Stringer (Blackley and Broughton) (Lab)]

Unlike other spending blocs, the gap between spending in the south-east and the rest of the regions has been increasing over the past 10 years. If there is to be real investment in major schemes in our major regional cities, that gap will have to be closed. What plans does the Secretary of State have to close that gap?

[Mr Hammond]

As the hon. Gentleman will know, the Government have committed themselves to a public consultation in the new year on the High Speed 2 rail scheme. They have allocated £750 million-worth of funding to take that scheme forward during the current spending review period.

That project—a strategic investment project—will more effectively close the gap between north and south and address the issues of differential economic growth rates than any other regional initiative that has been taken in the past couple of decades. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will welcome the commitment that the Government are making to that project, despite strong opposition to it in the southern half of the country.

[Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that notwithstanding the benefits of high-speed rail, the only way really to improve the north’s economic performance in the here and now is to improve connectivity within the north through projects such as the northern hub? Does he agree that that will require not just Government support, but effective regional strategic planning, which we have not seen so far?

[Mr Hammond]

My hon. Friend has been a passionate advocate of the northern hub since long before his election to the House. He has made the case and continues to make it powerfully. It is a very important project. Network Rail is taking forward work on the northern hub proposal with a view to considering its inclusion in the next financial control period, starting in 2014.

I agree with my hon. Friend. Projects of that nature realise their full potential only if they are properly integrated, with wider regional policies being adopted.

[Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)]

7. What assessment he has made of the effects of reductions in road safety grants and the ending of Government funding for speed cameras on the number of road traffic (a) accidents and (b) fatalities.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mike Penning)]

No assessment has been made about the effect on road accidents that may result from changes to road safety grants. The Government continue substantially to fund local transport in local authorities, including for road safety. Speed camera operations can still continue if the local authorities decide that they wish them to do so.

[Paul Blomfield]

Frankly, I am shocked to hear the Minister say that no assessment has been made regarding the consequences of significant cuts to capital and revenue funding and the ending of specific ring-fencing for local authority road safety grants at a time when local authorities are going to be under unprecedented financial pressure. I urge the Minister to think again about the dangerous consequences of the lack of priority that the Government are giving to road safety.

[Mike Penning]

Especially as an ex-fireman, I can assure the hon. Gentleman that road safety is paramount for this Government. That is why I am taking this forward in such strong ways, particularly with local authorities. It is for local authorities, not central Government, to decide what is best for their communities. Speed cameras have been beneficial in some parts of the country, but they have also been seen as cash cows. It is for local authorities to decide, and we will work with them.

[Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

May I draw the Minister’s attention to early-day motion 1084, tabled by me and co-sponsored by two former road safety Ministers, one Labour and one Conservative? The EDM welcomes a report from the RAC Foundation which confirms that each year the presence of speed cameras prevents 800 people from being killed or seriously injured. In the light of that, will the Minister give more credit to speed cameras, because they do save lives?

[Mike Penning]

I pay credit to the work that my hon. Friend has done over many years on road safety. The truth of the matter is that some speed cameras do fantastic work, and some do not. In local authority areas such as Swindon, where speed cameras have been stopped altogether, there has been no indication of an increase in accidents since they have gone. It is for local authorities to decide, and we will work with them, but the public must be with them when it comes to speed cameras. The public must, whatever happens, be confident that speed cameras are there for the right reason.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

The Minister has said:

“We would expect that road safety would remain a priority for local communities and that local spending would reflect that.”

The RAC calculates that speed cameras save 70 lives a year. Can the Minister tell the House how it is supposed to ensure that road safety remains a priority when his Government are cutting funding to local government by more than 30%? Is not the truth that ending Government funding for speed cameras is nothing to do with dictating priorities to local government but all about them making cuts to vital road safety measures that he does not wish to defend?

[Mike Penning]

The shadow Minister is better than that; he knows full well that some speed cameras work very well and some do not. The pre-2004 speed cameras in many areas, including my own, where the money was hypothecated straight back to the local authorities, were there to raise cash, not necessarily to prevent accidents. It is up to local authorities to use the money that has been given to them by central Government for their communities. It is for them to decide, not central Government.

[Gavin Shuker (Luton South) (Lab/Co-op)]

9. What steps he is taking to ensure that the Thameslink project is completed on time.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip Hammond)]

As I confirmed on 25 November, the Thameslink programme will go ahead in full. To improve delivery confidence, we will defer completion of the full programme, allowing 24 trains per hour in each direction, until 2018. This will reduce both cost and risk, particularly in respect of the reconstruction of London Bridge station. Passengers will start to see benefits from December 2011, when works at Blackfriars will be completed, and some 12-car trains will start to run from Bedford through to Brighton.

[Gavin Shuker]

As the Secretary of State will be aware, many of my constituents are struggling to get into work this morning on the existing rolling stock. New rolling stock is therefore vital as part of the Thameslink upgrade. Would he be willing to share the time scales for delivery of such rolling stock and place the information on record in the House?

[Mr Hammond]

It is expected that the new Thameslink rolling stock—1,200 vehicles—will start to be delivered in 2015, and delivery should be completed by 2019.

[Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con)]

As part of completing the Thameslink project, will my right hon. Friend ask officials to look at the cost benefit of extending the line beyond Cambridge to include areas such as Ely and Littleport on the way to King’s Lynn, because the service is planned to stop at Cambridge, yet the cost of electrification beyond there would be £60 million to £80 million out of a £5.5 billion overall cost?

[Mr Hammond]

There are no plans to look at further extension of the Thameslink programme during the current control period but, as my hon. Friend will know, the next Network Rail control period begins in 2014, and proposals for infrastructure enhancements to the network beyond 2014 will be looked at and evaluated over the next couple of years.

[Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is apparent that the Thameslink project is essential for the cascading of rolling stock to the north. Can we be assured that that rolling stock will be of good quality and not simply cast-offs from Thameslink? How will the Secretary of State’s statement about delays on Thameslink affect the north getting good-quality rolling stock to relieve overcrowding?

[Mr Hammond]

As the hon. Lady knows, the cascading of rolling stock from First Capital Connect’s existing operations to the north-west depends on the completion of the electrification programme in the north-west, which, as I indicated last week, is expected to be completed in 2016. By that time, rolling stock will have become available, so this does not involve any further delay. In terms of the quality of the stock, it is not, of course, new rolling stock, but it is good quality, with a significant remaining life expectancy.

[Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con)]

11. What plans he has for the future funding for the national station improvement programme and access for all grants.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)]

We intend to proceed with funding the £150 million national stations improvement programme to modernise approximately 150 medium-sized stations in England and Wales between 2009 and 2014. Similarly, we intend to proceed with the £370 million programme to improve access at stations in England, Scotland and Wales between 2006 and 2015.

[Nigel Adams]

The Minister will be aware that Selby railway station in my constituency does not have a passenger lift facility—its three platforms are currently connected by a wooden footbridge. What can the Minister tell my disabled or elderly constituents who are currently unable to use one of the platforms, thereby restricting their journeys somewhat, about the funding application for a passenger lift at the station?

[Norman Baker]

Selby station dates from a time when mobility was considered differently—indeed, I think it was the first station opened in Yorkshire, although presumably another was opened at the same time for trains to arrive at. I appreciate that that can present barriers to access for disabled people. Selby has already benefited from around £36,000 of small schemes funding towards automatic doors, customer information systems and non-slip flooring. Although I cannot guarantee the outcome of a future application for funding, we will give fair and full consideration to any proposal to create level access to platforms 2 and 3.

[Priti Patel (Witham) (Con)]

12. What recent representations he has received on future expenditure on roads in Essex; and if he will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mike Penning)]

I have received correspondence from four hon. Members as well as from Essex county council about investment on the A12.

[Priti Patel]

Is the Minister aware of the “Save Lives Not Time” petition in my constituency? It calls for improvements to the A120 between Braintree and Marks Tey, particularly in respect of the need to reduce speed on that road, which—as he may know—is described by the Road Safety Foundation as the 10th most dangerous single carriageway in England. My constituents would welcome a commitment from the Department to work with our local community to improve that road so that lives can be saved.

[Mike Penning]

I know that part of the world very well, particularly the A12 and the A120, and I know how dangerous the section of road to which my hon. Friend refers is. The Department will work with the campaign that she is working hard to pursue. My officials are listening, so they will know that they are to work with Essex county council and other officials to make that road safer.

[Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con)]

13. What steps he is taking to encourage sustainable local travel.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)]

Our commitment to sustainable local travel is evidenced by our decision to establish a £560 million local sustainable transport fund. We will shortly set out the criteria for bidding for the fund and will publish a White Paper next month setting out the policy initiatives that we will take forward in supporting local authorities in delivering sustainable local travel.

[Mr Amess]

Like most cycle networks in the country, ours does not best meet the needs of our local centenarians. Our ageing population very much depends on buses. Given that the bus companies are asking for subsidies and that the local authority has no money, can the Government help?

[Norman Baker]

I think the local sustainable transport fund helps directly. The hon. Gentleman made a connection between elderly people and cycling. When I was in Holland, I was interested to find out that 75% of journeys by pensionable persons were taken by bike, so we have some way to go in this country. The fund, which is designed to create growth and cut carbon, is well positioned to receive bids that will enhance cycling provision in Southend and elsewhere.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

The Minister is aware that there is a proposal for a national trial for a tram-train in south Yorkshire, which would help to get people out of their cars and on to public transport. When I asked the Secretary of State last week about the status of that project, I believe that he said it was on his desk pending a decision. Can the Minister now enlighten the House on whether a decision has been taken to go ahead with that nationally important pilot project?

[Norman Baker]

The details of that particular scheme are still being worked out, but I can tell the hon. Gentleman that discussions on it have involved me, the Secretary of State and the Transport Minister, who has responsibility for rail. Enabling tram-train to go ahead could provide an important benefit to public transport. We want to get the details right, so no firm decision has yet been taken.

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

14. What steps he is taking to encourage greater use of low-emission vehicles.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip Hammond)]

Decarbonisation of motor transport is one of my key priorities. The recent spending review announced that the Government have made provision of over £400 million for measures to promote the uptake of ultra-low carbon vehicle technologies. These measures include support for consumer incentives, development of recharging infrastructure, and a programme of research and development work.

[Andrew Selous]

When does my right hon. Friend expect that it will be an economically rational decision for most people to buy a low-emission vehicle?

[Mr Hammond]

I am pleased to tell my hon. Friend that with the benefit of the Government’s consumer incentive of up to £5,000 a vehicle, it will be an eminently rational decision for anyone to start purchasing an electric vehicle from next February, when they appear on the UK’s roads. The cost per kilometre of running an electric vehicle that is charged overnight with cheap-rate electricity will be between 1p and 3p, which compares favourably with the price of petrol.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Secretary of State for his response. Is he aware of the application that the Department of the Environment and the Department for Regional Development in Northern Ireland have submitted to the Office for Low Emission Vehicles regarding the plugged-in places vehicle initiative, which would promote an infrastructure in Northern Ireland for electric vehicle charging? What is the status of the application, and may I request that he gives it his support?

[Mr Hammond]

We are evaluating the bids that we have received for the second round of the plugged-in places programme and an announcement will be made in the new year.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

15. What recent assessment he has made of the effects of the outcomes of the comprehensive spending review in respect of the bus service operators grant on local bus services and fares.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)]

We estimate that the 20% reduction in bus service operators grant from 2012-13 would lead to a potential increase in average fares of around 1.5%. However, the bus industry is hopeful that, in general, this reduction could be absorbed without fares having to rise.

[Diana Johnson]

The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions has told people to get on the bus to look for work. What does the Minister say to my constituents in Kingswood and Bransholme, which are on the outskirts of Hull, who are looking for work, but are worried that the cuts that are being implemented will lead to a reduction in the less profitable bus services, as well as higher fares for people who are struggling already?

[Norman Baker]

We want to see more people on buses but, as I have indicated, the reduction in BSOG is less than the average reduction in the Department’s revenue budget, which recognises the importance of the bus network. When I spoke to the industry following the spending review announcement, it indicated that the cut was so minimal that it hoped that it could absorb it without fares having to rise, which is what we hope will happen.

[Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)]

16. What steps his Department is taking to reduce overcrowding on trains.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip Hammond)]

An additional 650 carriages will be delivered to the rail network between 6 May 2010 and March 2014. In addition, about 600 new carriages for the Crossrail project and up to 1,200 new carriages for the Thameslink programme will be delivered between 2015 and 2019, releasing large amounts of rolling stock for redeployment on other lines to increase capacity.

[Jonathan Reynolds]

I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. The growth in the northern economy over the past 10 to 15 years has heralded a significant rise in rail travel. Passenger growth in my region is set to rise further still, and that is particularly the case in constituencies such as mine that lie on or near the edge of major conurbations. In light of that, and following on from his response to the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), what assessment has he made of the benefits that the northern hub could bring to the northern economy by relieving overcrowding and putting in place faster and more frequent trains?

[Mr Hammond]

As I said in response to my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), the northern hub is an interesting and potentially valuable project. Network Rail is evaluating the project, but until we have a proper engineering scheme with a cost attached, it is clearly impossible to carry out a robust cost-benefit analysis. Once we are in a position to produce that, we will be able to examine the scheme properly for prioritisation in the control period 5 investment programme.

[Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con)]

Is the Secretary of State aware that—with the possible exception of today—trains from Brighton to Victoria are often very overcrowded?

[Mr Hammond]

Yes, of course I am. The Thameslink project will deliver relief on lines across London from north to south and to Brighton, and will hopefully relieve part of the problem on the Brighton-Victoria line to which my hon. Friend refers.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that electrifying the Great Western main line would be one way of increasing capacity, especially in south Wales?

[Mr Hammond]

I do not believe that electrification will deliver increased capacity; there is capacity on the main line now. I told the House last week that we will work with the Welsh Assembly Government to build and validate the business case for electrification of the Great Western main line into south Wales. I spoke to the Deputy First Minister late last week, and such work between officials in the two Governments is now ongoing.

[Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con)]

Will the Minister undertake a review of overcrowding and value for money in general on commuter trains run by Southeastern to Orpington, which, uniquely in the country, has been saddled with a retail prices index regime of RPI plus 3 over recent years?

[Mr Hammond]

The faster rate of fare increases on Southeastern is, as my hon. Friend knows, related to the introduction of the high-speed Javelin trains, which have managed to continue running very effectively during the current period of weather disruption. We are reviewing value for money on the rail network as a whole. Sir Roy McNulty is conducting that review, and I will publish his interim findings shortly, and a final report in April next year.

[John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip Hammond)]

Since I last answered Transport Questions, I have confirmed that Thameslink will go ahead in its entirety and announced £900 million-worth of rail electrification projects and 2,100 new rail carriages. I have also announced the sale of a 30-year concession on High Speed 1 for £2.1 billion.

[John Mann]

Since the last Transport questions, I have corrected the Minister with responsibility for roads: there have been 27 collisions at Elkesley on the A1 in the past five years. When will the Minister press the button to start this scheme, which is designed and ready to go, so that we can save lives by building the bridge at Elkesley?

[Mr Hammond]

The hon. Gentleman knows that road schemes are evaluated on a cost-benefit basis. Accident figures are one of the factors taken into account and built into the analysis, but we will always look at the cost-benefit analysis—the overall benefits that the scheme will bring, compared with the costs—and all schemes have to be looked at fairly and objectively in the light of the limited funding available.

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

T2. Prodrive is one of the most cutting-edge and significant companies in my constituency. It does excellent work on automotive engineering, including producing a new generation of Mini rally car. What are the Government going to do to make it easier for rallying to take place on roads in the UK?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mike Penning)]

Legislation dating from the 1930s restricts rallying, time trials and races on highways in the UK. An Act of Parliament would be required to change that. We are looking to deregulate the position so that if local authorities want to hold rallies, time trials or races, they should be allowed to do so.

[Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab)]

The winter resilience review commissioned by the previous Government has produced its final report and recommendations, yet the country is in chaos, with passengers forced to sleep at stations, freezing all night on broken-down trains or getting trapped in their cars, all at a cost to the economy of up to £1.2 billion a day. Why are not the findings of the review being implemented? The public do not want the Secretary of State to announce another review by the person who has already set out the blueprint for improvements. They want him to get on and implement the recommendations and improvements. When is the Secretary of State going to get a grip?

[Mr Hammond]

First of all, the hon. Lady fails to recognise the scale of the weather event that is occurring. It involves a significantly bigger snowfall than the one that occurred earlier this year, which gave rise to the events that caused my predecessor to commission the review. The findings and recommendations of the review have been implemented, and I have asked David Quarmby to come back and audit their implementation so that we can see the extent to which they have been consistently implemented and whether there are any lessons that we can learn from the last few days. I hope that the hon. Lady will support that approach.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

T4. Thousands of my Harlow commuters have been braving the weather to travel on the Harlow to London rail line. They have suffered a 30% increase in train overcrowding in recent years. Will the Minister look at the economic benefits of upgrading the West Anglia main line?

[Mr Hammond]

As my hon. Friend will know, 176 additional carriages are due to be delivered to the Greater Anglia franchise next year. That will assist with overcrowding overall. In regard to the upgrading of the line, I have said in response to other questions today that we are prepared to look at proposals for further network enhancements as possible investments for control period 5, which begins in 2014.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Is the Secretary of State aware that the answer given just a few minutes ago by the road safety Minister is probably the worst answer I have heard in this House in 31 years? Professor Richard Allsop, an acknowledged world expert on transport safety, says that 800 people will die because of the Government’s policy on speed cameras. Is the Secretary of State going to just sit there and let that happen?

[Mr Hammond]

No, and I completely reject the analysis. As the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), has said, speed cameras are useful additions to the road safety armoury in some locations. It is for local authorities to decide whether they wish to continue with speed camera operation. I hope that they will act responsibly and carefully in making those decisions.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

T5. The Secretary of State is right to consider the introduction of automatic number plate recognition technology at the Dartford crossing to ease congestion. Given that the crossing makes some £45 million a year, would it not be better to consider the effect of how the new technology improves congestion before increasing toll charges to help fund a new crossing?

[Mike Penning]

My hon. Friend has campaigning for many years to get the tolls removed from the Dartford river crossing, but we need the investment not only for vehicle recognition, so that we can have free flow coming through and the realignment of the road, but for the preliminary work for the new crossing.

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

In the Secretary of State’s response to the resilience review, he stated that he was dissatisfied with previous performance and the level of disruption and that it would be sorted in time for this winter. What went wrong? His response just now was not good enough. It is not good enough just to say that there has been a bit extra snow.

[Mr Hammond]

Let me make this clear: when we have extremely heavy snow and extremely low temperatures, there will be disruption to the transport system. The question is not about whether there is disruption. The question we now have to ask is whether anything could or should have been done that was not done. If there is anything, we will learn the lessons from that.

In the events earlier this year, the problem was that local authorities and the Highways Agency had inadequate supplies of salt and grit. We have more than adequate supplies of salt and grit and we have new equipment out on the strategic road network. Six runs per day across the strategic road network have been going on over the past 48 hours. The strategic road network, with one or two specific exceptions, is open and operating today.

[David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)]

T7. Will my right hon. Friend tell the House when he will be able to give further details on any impact the extension of High Speed 2 to Manchester will have on existing rail services, including those from Manchester to Euston, which make an important stop at Macclesfield?

[Mr Hammond]

My hon. Friend is right to observe that the introduction of HS 2 services in 2025 will of course change the nature of operations on the west coast main line. It will create additional capacity on that line and provide the opportunity for more trains that stop at more places, which is one of the demands that we regularly receive, and it will also create the opportunity for more freight paths and thus more transfer of freight from road to rail. The precise detail of service patterns will have to be decided when the franchise for west coast main line post-2025 is let.

[Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)]

Instead of all these reviews about the weather, why does not the Secretary of State get on the phone to the Tory councils in Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire and tell them to get the gritters out?

[Mr Hammond]

I can tell the hon. Gentleman that gritters on the strategic road network, which are operated by the Highways Agency, have been out and have been carrying out the planned number of gritting runs.

[Mr Skinner]

I am talking about villages.

[Mr Hammond]

The hon. Gentleman says he is talking about villages. One thing I have asked David Quarmby to do is to consider the response of local authorities, whether they have uniformly implemented the recommendations in his review, which reported earlier this year, and what lessons have to be learned. I shall make public David Quarmby’s findings, which we expect to receive in a couple of weeks’ time.

[Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)]

May I urge the Secretary of State to ignore today’s report from the Select Committee on Transport on the North review in the same way as the report ignored conclusive evidence that reducing the drink-drive limit would save lives? Instead, will he bring forward proposals to reduce the drink-drive limit from 80 mg to 50 mg?

[Mr Hammond]

I have not seen the conclusive evidence that the hon. Gentleman speaks of, but I have seen various opinions in this area. I have not yet read the Transport Committee’s report but I have to say to him that I am a little surprised to hear him, as a member of that Committee, urging me to ignore its report and findings. Part of our democratic process is to have our debates in the Committees and to get behind their findings and reports when they are published.

[Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)]

Can the Secretary of State update the House on progress following the consultation on the safety at street works and road works code of practice? More than 500,000 people are working on the highways unprotected, and we need new legislation to be able to get new jobs, which could be based in areas outside the south-east.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)]

I am happy to say that we are having discussions in the Department with relevant bodies outside, including the roadworks community, to work out how best to go forward and ensure that we get the balance right between improved safety, where that is appropriate, and not loading inappropriate costs on business.

The Minister for Women and Equalities was asked—

[Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)]

1. What plans she has to increase the number of female company directors.

[The Minister for Equalities (Lynne Featherstone)]

I offer the apologies of the Minister for Women and Equalities to you, Mr Speaker, and to the House. She cannot attend questions today as she is in Brussels for a meeting of the European Union’s Justice and Home Affairs Council. The Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Basingstoke (Maria Miller), who is responsible for disabled people, and I will endeavour to field questions.

Lord Davies has been appointed to consider how obstacles can be removed to allow more women to make it to the boardroom, and we will respond to his recommendations in due course. Measures that we are taking on positive action, flexible working and parental leave will also help address some of the barriers to progression that women face in the workplace.

[Stephen Metcalfe]

Having worked with my wife, my mother and my sister at board level, I am only too aware of the value that female directors bring to a company. What steps will my hon. Friend take to redress the balance of company boards tending to be predominantly male?

[Lynne Featherstone]

My hon. Friend is entirely right. Diverse organisations that reflect their customers offer better products and services as a result. In addition to appointing Lord Davies and implementing positive action, we are working with partners to encourage greater gender pay transparency. As I announced this morning, we will work with business to arrange for companies of 150 staff—not 250, as under the previous Government—to publish information that will allow people to understand their progression in the workplace.

[Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)]

I welcome the Government’s strategy to increase the number of women on the boards of companies. Will the Minister seriously consider international best practice, such as that of Norway, and introduce a quota?

[Lynne Featherstone]

The Government have no intention of introducing legislation permitting quotas, but we will listen to what Lord Davies says when he comes back with his recommendations and respond then.

[Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)]

Evidence suggests that companies with a strong female representation at board and top management level perform better than companies without. Does my hon. Friend agree that gender diversity allows companies to understand much better the needs of their customers?

[Lynne Featherstone]

My hon. Friend is entirely right. One would think that looking at the success of companies with diversity on their boards, and at the increase in their bottom-line profits, would be persuasion enough, but apparently there is much more to do.

[Joseph Johnson (Orpington) (Con)]

2. What recent discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues on reform of the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

5. What recent discussions she has had with ministerial colleagues on reform of the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

[The Minister for Equalities (Lynne Featherstone)]

I discussed the reform of the Equality and Human Rights Commission with ministerial colleagues only yesterday. We want to focus on its core regulatory and human rights functions and improve its value for taxpayers’ money, and we intend to consult on our proposals early next year.

[Joseph Johnson]

Will the Minister say why she believes a voluntary regime for the reporting of equality data will be sufficient to eliminate the persistent gender pay gap that the EHRC identified in its latest triennial review?

[Lynne Featherstone]

It will most certainly help. The voluntary approach, as introduced by Labour in the Equality Act 2010, is a very good mechanism. However, Government must not dictate to business. Business, the voluntary sector and all participants must come forward to publish details, and we will work with partners to ensure that voluntary publishing goes forward. We expect that it will, but we will not commence, amend or repeal section 78 of the Act, so the stick remains.

[Charlie Elphicke]

Are the core functions of the commission being successfully addressed? Is it working properly?

[Lynne Featherstone]

This is an opportunity for the EHRC to focus on its core functions. Unfortunately, when it was originally conceived and set up the previous Government seemed to lump together the previous three commissions with no real direction, no analysis of the skills that were needed and no focus. The EHRC has to become a respected national institution that focuses on its core functions, which are to ensure that people understand equalities discrimination and encourage them to use equalities legislation, and to hold to account those who do not.

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

One of the EHRC’s roles is to nudge us towards a more equal society, so will the Minister say what she is doing to encourage more women apprentices, as they make up only 1% of those in manufacturing industry?

[Lynne Featherstone]

I will confer with the EHRC, as the hon. Lady said that this was about it nudging people. We are working with the science, engineering and technology sectors, and with all trades, to improve that representation level, as 1% is not acceptable.

[Meg Munn (Sheffield, Heeley) (Lab/Co-op)]

When the EHRC was established, with Liberal Democrat support, one of its key roles was to work proactively, through positive duties and working with organisations to ensure equality, so that cases of discrimination did not arise. In wishing to focus more on regulatory functions, is the hon. Lady not in danger of moving towards a situation where we only punish those who have committed acts of discrimination, rather than having a much more positive approach, as was previously supported?

[Lynne Featherstone]

No, it is a regulatory function to carry out the first of those core duties, which is to ensure that everyone in the voluntary sector and the workplace understands what equality legislation means to them and then to encourage them to use it. So we are taking a very positive approach. We hope that the end that is the enforcement arm of the regulator will never have to be used.

[Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)]

What recent representations has the Minister received from the EHRC about the disparity in tariffs for different types of hate crime? Disability hate crimes uniformly attract a lower tariff than hate crimes motivated by issues of sex or race.

[Lynne Featherstone]

I thank my hon. Friend for that question. He is right to say that certain forms of hate crime do not have the same aggravated status as others. That is being reviewed as we speak by the Ministry of Justice.

[Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)]

Reform of the EHRC must not be carried out because the Government are running scared of the action that the EHRC is rightly taking against the Government on the spending review. The House of Commons Library has now assessed the tax and benefit measures in the spending review and previous Budgets, and its figures show that Labour’s last two Budgets gave more help to women, whereas the spending review and the emergency Budget after the election are hitting women more than twice as hard as men. When women still earn less and own less than men, why have the Government decided that women should pay more?

[Lynne Featherstone]

The right hon. Lady has raised this issue before, and she rightly says that the EHRC is doing what it is meant to do as an independent body. It is currently on the information trail, asking for information appertaining to the comprehensive spending review. All Departments are assessing the impact on equality and this Government have acted to protect the lowest-paid public sector workers, most of whom are women, from the public sector pay freeze. We have taken the lowest earners—800,000 people, most of whom are women—out of taxation. This Government have acted to protect women.

[Iain Stewart (Milton Keynes South) (Con)]

3. If she will bring forward legislative proposals to amend the requirements for the disclosure of historical convictions for consensual homosexual intercourse for the purposes of preventing discrimination.

[The Minister for Equalities (Lynne Featherstone)]

As my right hon. Friend the Minister for Women and Equalities said in her equalities speech last week, the rights and freedoms Bill will include provisions to ensure that those who were prosecuted for consensual gay sex with over-16s at a time when that was illegal may apply to have their conviction deleted from police records. As a result, they will no longer be required to disclose their conviction in any circumstances.

[Iain Stewart]

Does the Minister agree that one of the benefits of the change is that men with such convictions who have not previously volunteered for charities or other organisations will now be able to do so, as they will no longer have to make the disclosure in their Criminal Records Bureau checks?

[Lynne Featherstone]

My hon. Friend raises an important point. It is totally unfair and unjust that men who have a conviction for something that has long not been illegal should have to fear that being exposed—and exposed to partners they live with, who may not know. Such men will never again have to disclose that information. I hope very much that those gay men whom that has inhibited from volunteering will now find that inhibition removed.

[Alun Michael (Cardiff South and Penarth) (Lab/Co-op)]

4. What steps the Government are taking to ensure that disabled people are able to participate in elections and referendums.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Maria Miller)]

There are a number of provisions in legislation that support disabled electors to vote at elections and, by extension, referendums. In particular, local authorities have a statutory duty to carry out a full assessment of polling places at least every four years to ensure that, so far as is practical, all venues are accessible to electors who are disabled.

[Alun Michael]

I am sure that the Minister would agree that there is still more that can be done—there are lots of things for a variety of disabilities—to ensure that practice is good in every aspect. In particular, will she look at clearing away the clutter of information on referendum ballot forms and election forms? That would mean that the information could be given in large-print form, as appropriate, and that the simplicity of the ballot form would be renewed.

[Maria Miller]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for raising that point, because access to voting is important for everybody, and the Government are committed to ensuring that that is the case. There is significant legislation already in place to help that happen, and we will be ensuring that adequate formats are in place for all disabled people at the next referendum. In fact, we have consulted Scope on the form and design of the ballot paper to be used in the forthcoming voting referendum, so that both partially sighted people and people with learning disabilities will be able to participate.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

Disabled people are still under-represented in this House and at other levels of elected office. When will the Government implement the commitment in the coalition agreement to introduce extra support for people with disabilities who want to stand for election?

[Maria Miller]

As my hon. Friend says, we have made a commitment as part of our coalition document to support more disabled people who want to become MPs, councillors or elected officials. We are currently looking at the detail of how best to do that. We will put forward proposals shortly, drawing on the cross-party Speaker’s Conference evidence, which has been very useful.

[Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)]

6. What steps she has taken to increase protection from domestic violence for women.

[The Minister for Equalities (Lynne Featherstone)]

On 25 November, we published the Government’s vision to end violence against women and girls. It covers a range of measures to support victims of domestic violence, such as 12-month pilots of domestic protection orders and £28 million of funding until 2015 to support specialist services, including local domestic violence advisers, national helplines and work to prevent forced marriage.

[Mrs Moon]

If people are arrested or convicted for speeding, or if they are caught drink-driving, they are required to attend rehabilitation training courses. I support go orders, which are a good step forward, but should there not be huge investment and a commitment to ensuring that those who are removed from their homes are also required to attend anger management courses? That is what is needed to prevent further episodes of domestic violence.

[Lynne Featherstone]

I thank the hon. Lady for that thoughtful contribution. I will certainly take it away and consider it.

[Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)]

The Minister will be aware of the Powys woman who has been imprisoned for retracting her rape complaint against her husband. This abused woman has been criminalised, imprisoned and separated from her children, while the man, who the authorities were satisfied had raped her and who they believed had perverted the course of justice, is free. That will terrify other rape complainants who have been abused by their partners. Such women already have to struggle for support to get out of their situation, but they can now see that asking for help may be more dangerous than staying to suffer. Will the hon. Lady institute an holistic inquiry into how such a debacle occurred, say whether her Government’s proposal to grant anonymity to men—and thus imply that woman who complain of rape are liars—is going ahead, and explain how they will secure no repetition of such a shameful case?

[Lynne Featherstone]

There is clearly an issue with women hesitating to come forward. This case and the publicity surrounding it might well have an effect on women. Obviously, I cannot comment on this case, but I am very aware of the need to encourage women to come forward if they have been the victims of rape. They should feel supported and listened to when they come forward. I will look into the case but I do not think it is my job to say today whether we will have an inquiry. However, I can inform the hon. Lady that the rape anonymity proposals have been dropped.

[Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)]

7. What assessment she has made of the likely effect on women of the outcome of the comprehensive spending review in the spending review period; and if she will make a statement.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Maria Miller)]

The Government have published an overview of the impact of the CSR on groups who are protected by equality legislation—the first time this has been done. It shows that women make more use of public services than men. Many of the key services we are protecting, including health, social care and early-years education, will benefit women.

[Sheila Gilmore]

The figures on the impact of benefit and tax changes, including the measures that were referred to by the Minister for Equalities earlier, show that nearly two thirds of the savings on benefits and tax credits will be borne by women. The Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions states that services are more used by women, so what practical steps is she going to take to redress the situation, given the huge pay gap which has been mentioned today?

[Maria Miller]

There are significant measures in the spending review that have clear benefits for women. We are protecting health care funding, extending early-years education, lifting 880,000 of the lowest-paid workers—the majority of whom are women—out of income tax, and increasing child tax credits for the poorest families. The majority of decisions about how Departments will live within their settlements are yet to be made and Departments will consider equalities impacts as they develop their plans. As my hon. Friend the Minister for Equalities said earlier, the Treasury has, for the first time, reviewed the overall impact of the CSR—something that was never done under 13 years of Labour.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

I am afraid that demand exceeds the time available and we must move on.

Winter Weather

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Commons Chamber

11:32

[Roberta Blackman-Woods (City of Durham) (Lab)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Transport to update the House on the Government’s response to the severe winter weather.

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Philip Hammond)]

Last year, the country experienced the most prolonged period of cold weather for 30 years. Weather conditions meant that the cost to the economy and the disruption to the public was significant and unacceptable. The Government took urgent action during the summer so that the country would be in a more resilient position this winter. We have studied the recommendations in David Quarmby’s review of last winter’s transport disruption, which was established by my predecessor and which I published in October.

We have taken action to address the points raised in the review. Salt stocks are at a much higher level than at this time last year and a national strategic salt reserve now exists for the first time to support local authorities whose individual stocks run out. Some 250,000 tonnes of salt have been ordered for that reserve, which will be managed by the Highways Agency, and more than 100,000 tonnes are already in place. In addition, the Highways Agency has 225,000 tonnes of operational stock for use on its own strategic road network and at the end of November local authorities had approximately 1 million tonnes of salt stock. The Highways Agency has ordered a further 60,000 tonnes and Scotland has separately stockpiled 30,000 tonnes.

Recommendations were also made in the Quarmby report about the measures that local highway authorities needed to take to keep our road network moving in the event of snow and ice this winter. In the past few days, there has been unusually heavy and persistent snow, in much greater quantities than were experienced earlier this year, down much of the eastern side of the country. The great majority of the strategic transport network has been kept open this week, but road and rail services in the areas worst affected by snow have been seriously disrupted. Highways authorities are working to keep roads open, but delays have been caused by broken-down vehicles and minor accidents. It is clear that abandoned and broken-down vehicles preventing access for gritters and in some cases preventing access to highway depots were major factors in yesterday’s situation.

Most airports in England are keeping services running, but Gatwick has been directly affected by the worst of the snow conditions in England and remains closed today. One hundred thousand tonnes of snow have been cleared at Gatwick during the past 24 hours, and 80 full-time equivalent personnel and 47 snow-clearing machines are in operation at the airport. Many eastern rail services and Southern rail and Eurostar services have also suffered disruption and delay. Network Rail and train operators are working together to deliver as many services as possible. Night-time ghost trains have been run wherever possible, but build-up of ice on third rails across the Southeastern and Southern networks has led to loss of power and trains being stranded, causing severe delays and cancellations.

We are not alone; our northern European neighbours, and even Switzerland, are similarly affected—Geneva airport was closed for 36 hours. The Government fully recognise the frustration of the travelling public, and we are doing everything we can to keep Britain moving. Given that much of the country is being hit by severe weather unusually early this year, I have asked David Quarmby to conduct an urgent audit of highways authorities’ and transport operators’ performance in implementing the recommendations in his report, and to consider any further steps that might need to be taken.

I want to make it clear that I am asking David Quarmby to address the question not of whether we expect disruption when we have weather of such severity, but of whether there is anything that could or should have been done that has not been done. I expect to receive his report before the House rises for Christmas, and I will make a statement on his immediate findings at that time.

[Roberta Blackman-Woods]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his response, but does not the fact that he has responded rather than the Minister for the Cabinet Office, who is in his place, show that the Government have no co-ordinated response to the problems created by the severe weather conditions? Will the Secretary of State tell the House who, if anyone, in Government is co-ordinating ministerial colleagues? As he said, the severe winter weather is creating huge problems: 1,500 schools are closed today, disrupting children’s education and preventing parents from getting to work; local authorities are reporting concerns about deliveries of grit; and ambulance services and hospitals are reporting cancellations of services. It is clear, therefore, that the problems are not confined to transport, but affect vulnerable people and the running of vital public services.

People were trapped in their cars, on trains and at isolated stations for many hours during the night, and many others are cut off in their homes, raising concerns about food deliveries and fuel supplies. Will the Secretary of State therefore tell us not just what he is doing, but what the Secretary of State for Education is doing on the schools situation, what the Secretary of State for Health is doing to keep hospitals running, and what the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government is doing to ensure that local authorities have what they need? Finally, can the Transport Secretary tell us whether there are any plans to convene Cobra today to help co-ordinate the Government’s response to the severe winter weather? That certainly needs to happen.

[Mr Hammond]

The list of problems that the hon. Lady read out are overwhelmingly related to the difficulties in the transport system. There is a long-established principle that the Department with lead responsibility for the problem co-ordinates across Government, and the Department for Transport has taken the lead in responding to this situation so far.

The hon. Lady said that local authorities are having difficulty obtaining supplies of grit, but my Department has not been contacted by any local authority with such difficulties. We have more than 100,000 tonnes of grit available in the Highways Agency’s strategic stockpile ready to be made available to local authorities if they request it. The hon. Lady asked whether Cobra was planning to meet. The situation is being kept under continuous review, and if it is appropriate to convene a meeting of Cobra later today, that meeting will be convened.

[David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con)]

Why was the A5 in the midlands partly closed? Will the Secretary of State please write to me about that? Does he recognise that the A5 is a national highway? This is not a county matter.

[Mr Hammond]

Most of the strategic road network across the country has been kept open, and most of it is open today. Some strategic roads have been closed, particularly on higher ground, either because of exceptionally heavy and drifting snow or because they have been blocked by accidents or abandoned vehicles. Individual decisions will have been made by the Highways Agency or, in some cases, by the police. I will write to my hon. Friend and tell him precisely the reason for the A5 closure.

[Maria Eagle (Garston and Halewood) (Lab)]

I am afraid that the Secretary of State is demonstrating a remarkable—indeed, breathtaking—degree of complacency. Unfortunately, he is not filling the House with any confidence that he is dealing with his responsibilities adequately. He may recall that, on the publication of the interim report on winter resilience in July, he said:

“For two winters in a row, severe weather has caused significant disruption for transport in this country. The cost to the economy and the disruption to the public has been significant, and there has been a level of dissatisfaction and confusion about the response by Government at both local and national level. This is unacceptable and must be resolved before the next winter season.”—[Official Report, 26 July 2010; Vol. 514, c. 72WS.]

Is he really arguing that it has now been resolved?

Earlier today, during Transport questions, the Secretary of State said not only that the final and interim reports on winter resilience had been studied and not only that action had been taken—which he has just said again—but that the reports’ recommendations had been implemented. He appeared to row back from that statement in his response to the urgent question. Will he make clear in what way the 17 recommendations in the interim report and the 11 further recommendations in the final report have been implemented? Has the salt cell been activated, and, if not, can he tell us why not? Have the 250,000 tonnes of salt actually been stockpiled? The Secretary of State said that the salt had been ordered, and then said that there were 100,000 tonnes in the stockpile. The report which he told us earlier had been implemented called for a stockpile of 250,000 tonnes. Can he make the position a bit clearer?

This winter weather was forecast well in advance. It is not as if it suddenly came on us. The Met Office gave us plenty of warning. Does the Secretary of State believe that a grit audit is an adequate response from the Government to the current suffering of motorists forced to sleep freezing in their cars, of train passengers dropped off at stations with no way of being rescued, and of half the population who struggled to get to work and had to turn up late yesterday? Does he believe that the complacent attitude that he has demonstrated today is anywhere near good enough from people who purport to be the Government of this nation?

[Mr Hammond]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I know that the Secretary of State always attempts to respond very comprehensively, but may I appeal to him to do so briefly as well? These are principally Back-Bench occasions; many Members wish to contribute, and brevity is the order of the day.

[Mr Hammond]

I shall attempt to be brief, Mr Speaker, but the hon. Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle) asked me a good many questions.

I can assure the hon. Lady that there is no complacency whatsoever. I recognise the absolute frustration and, indeed, anger of many people who have been stranded and had their journeys and their lives disrupted over the past 48 hours. Let me repeat, however, that the question is not whether a foot of snow and double-digit negative temperatures create disruption. They will create disruption; they will always create disruption. The question is whether we should or could have done anything differently, and that is what I have asked David Quarmby to consider. As soon as we have the answers to all the very sensible questions asked by the hon. Lady, I will report back to the House.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

When it comes to trains and buses, passengers find the weather frustrating, but even more frustrating is often the complete lack of information while they are standing on a cold platform or waiting at a draughty bus stop. What can the Secretary of State do to make sure that senior executives in those largely private companies ensure that information gets to the customers as speedily as possible?

[Mr Hammond]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. A major part of the problem that we experienced yesterday was lack of information flow. Some train operators have already supplied BlackBerrys to on-train crews so that they can be given real-time updates to advise passengers of what is going on. We must take that process further. The least we ought to be able to do for passengers if they find their journeys disrupted is to give them accurate information about what is going on.

[Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Secretary of State called for a review, but what is he doing to ensure that he can get up-to-date information enabling him to act with urgency? What is the role of regional Government offices in working with local authorities to give him a full and up-to-date picture of what is going on?

[Mr Hammond]

To be clear, I have asked David Quarmby to audit the implementation of the measures that he recommended in his report. Those were not simply about grit. There are recommendations covering a range of areas and modes of transport. We are getting information—not quite in real time, but by 9 o’clock this morning we had a full situation report on rail services and the condition of the strategic road network across the country. The information about what is happening on individual local authorities’ roads is a little more patchy. That issue needs looking at, because the condition of local authority roads can have a knock-on effect on the condition of the strategic road network.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

Does the Secretary of State agree that in a country with a generally temperate climate, such things will happen from time to time, that it would be disproportionate to spend too much money preventing them, and that even this Government cannot control the weather?

[Mr Hammond]

My hon. Friend is of course right. The Highways Agency has invested more than £100 million in new equipment for dealing with snow on the strategic highway network, as well as building a large strategic reserve of salt and grit. As I said earlier, clearly the question is not whether we can eliminate disruption when we get such snowfall in the UK. There will always be disruption. The question is whether there are sensible and proportionate measures that we could and should take which will minimise that disruption.

[Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)]

Further to the question from the hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone), may I turn the Minister’s attention to the airports? The airports in the south-east are closed today, yet the public are given no information about the alternatives. The airport authorities knew a week ago that the present weather conditions would happen. Why are we in such a situation in the south-east of England?

[Mr Hammond]

The hon. Gentleman says that the airports in the south of England are closed, but as of a few minutes ago, when I came into the Chamber, that was not my information. My information was that Gatwick was closed, but Heathrow was operating, albeit with delays. The problem, as the hon. Gentleman knows, is that airports have to operate with a primary focus on safety, and when heavy snow is falling it is not possible to operate the runways safely. I gave the figures earlier for the amount of clearance that occurred at Gatwick yesterday. Vast amounts of snow were moved off the runways and taxiways, but the airport is still not able to operate. If there is any measure that could or should have been taken over the past few days that would have kept Gatwick airport open, that is what we need to focus on, but even Geneva airport has been closed this week.

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

All train services into my constituency are currently cancelled. Bearing in mind that the same routes serve the strategically important port of Immingham, through which much of the country’s coal is imported for power stations, can the Secretary of State assure me that improvements will be made to the services?

[Mr Hammond]

I cannot give my hon. Friend any immediate assurance that improvements will be possible on that line. I understand that the problem in that case is drifting snow, and it will take some time to clear the line and reopen it. I can tell him and the House that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change has told me that he is confident that coal supplies are adequate and that we need see no interruptions to power supplies as a result of the present cold snap.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

May I please have some clarification from the Secretary of State? He said earlier that 100,000 tonnes of salt are available in the strategic supply, yet the review recommended that 250,000 tonnes should be in place by the start of the winter season. Will the Secretary of State confirm that he has not fulfilled that recommendation?

[Mr Hammond]

That is one of the questions that the hon. Member for Garston and Halewood (Maria Eagle) asked from the Front Bench. Let me give the exact figures. Local authorities have just under 1 million tonnes of stock for their own use. The Highways Agency has 225,000 tonnes of stock for its own use, and in addition it has ordered 250,000 tonnes for a strategic stockpile, of which 107,000 tonnes have been delivered. The remainder is expected to be delivered over the next six weeks. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for Garston and Halewood says that we have not met the target. It was never intended that the 250,000 tonnes would be used up in the first week of winter. It is going to be perfectly satisfactory to have the 250,000 tonnes delivered progressively during the course of December and into early January. Much of the salt is imported by sea from very distant locations, and we expect to have it all on the ground by early January.

[Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend will have noted that the tube system is working relatively well today, but he will also have seen that on Monday there was strike action on what was a very cold day, which caused massive disruption. Will my right hon. Friend join me in condemning those who look to pile on the misery by announcing three-day tube strikes, and those like Ken Livingstone who seek to support these strikes?

[Mr Hammond]

Unlike the Leader of the Opposition, I do believe there is such a thing as an irresponsible strike.

[Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)]

When the right hon. Gentleman speaks to Mr Quarmby, will he make sure that his review looks not only at strategic routes but at the gritting of local and side roads? Last winter, many of my constituents were trapped in their homes. They were told that that was because the emphasis was on main routes. If they live on hills, for instance, they cannot get out of their homes. Local roads and side roads—and pavements as well—are just as important as some of the big strategic routes.

[Mr Hammond]

I wonder about the hon. Gentleman’s commitment to localism. David Quarmby will be looking at the performance of local authorities, but it is for local authorities to decide on their gritting plan, and most local authorities will not choose to grit every residential side road and every footway. That is a decision for them, and it is for local communities to hold local authorities to account for those decisions. Our job is to make sure that local authorities are doing what they are committed to do on the strategic road network.

[Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend join me in congratulating all those who, despite the weather, have battled into work to keep our public services open and to negate the effect that this sort of weather can have on our economy?

[Mr Hammond]

I will indeed. It is very tempting at 6.30 am to look out of the window and decide to turn over and forget about it, so those who have battled with the elements and the disruption on the transport system to keep our public services going should be congratulated.

[Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)]

How much of the Highways Agency budget has been, and will be, spent on procuring salt, grit and potash from British suppliers such as Boulby potash mine in my constituency, as opposed to overseas suppliers which the Secretary of State mentioned earlier?

[Mr Hammond]

The point I think the hon. Gentleman is trying to make is simply not valid. The problem last year was that domestic suppliers could not keep up with demand. Local authorities ran down their stocks, in some cases to nil, and during the summer they needed to rebuild those stocks. To have had the Highways Agency trying to build a strategic stockpile in competition with them would have been deeply unhelpful. We took the decision to import the large part of the strategic stockpile, even though that means paying very considerably higher prices, so that local authorities could restock and the strategic stockpile could be built in parallel.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

Will the Secretary of State talk to his departmental colleagues, and also to the Prime Minister, about emphasising to people the importance of checking on their neighbours? I acknowledge the work that has been done on ensuring that there is grit, and we have learned the lessons of last winter, but it is essential that we do not forget our communities locally.

[Mr Hammond]

My hon. Friend reminds the House of a very important message. We have talked about people struggling to get to work and wrestling with the transport network, but many people, often the elderly, are stuck in their homes and they may be getting into difficulty—they may be unable to shop, for instance. It is very important that we keep delivering the message that those who are able to get out should check on their neighbours and see if there is anything they can do to help.

[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State said in his statement that the Department for Transport was taking the lead among Departments, yet in that statement there was not one word about what he or any of his Ministers are doing about this crisis. Is not the reality that he is asleep on the job, and when is he going to get a grip?

[Mr Hammond]

The reality is that the problem on the ground is essentially transport-focused at this stage. Problems in other areas such as the health service are directly related to transport issues, so the Department for Transport has to take the lead. That is what we are doing. We are regularly meeting and communicating with the Highways Agency, train operators and airport operators to monitor the situation; we are doing so on an hourly basis. If it is necessary to convene a meeting of Cobra later today, we will do so.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

Is it not right that we congratulate and encourage those people who are currently hard at work up and down the country clearing snow, and is it not also right that good neighbours should be encouraged to clear pavements outside their own homes?

[Mr Hammond]

On my hon. Friend’s last point, I remind the House that the Government published a code of practice on snow clearing on pavements. Members will remember that during the similar events of last winter earlier this year there was some suggestion that individuals were wary of clearing snow from pavements for fear that accidents caused on that stretch of pavement might lead to legal action. I hope we have dealt with that issue.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

On the topic of getting a grip, has the Secretary of State heard anything from local authorities about neighbourhood gritting barns having been filled this year because of the terrible winter we had last year?

[Mr Hammond]

That is, of course, a matter for local authorities. I can tell the hon. Gentleman that one of the big problems with strategically placed roadside bins is that the grit local authorities put in them is often removed without authorisation by people wanting to use it on their private properties. That has been a persistent problem for local authorities.

[Mr Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State may have heard the report on the “Today” programme about the dozens of lorry drivers who have spent two nights in the Methodist hall in South Anston in my constituency. The road they are stranded on is the A57. That section of it is a major link road between the A1 and the M1 in south Yorkshire. Can the Transport Secretary urgently find out why it has been allowed to get into a state of such chaos?

[Mr Hammond]

I will check specifically on the situation on the A57 and write to the right hon. Gentleman later today, but I can tell him that generally across the strategic road network, where major problems have occurred the cause has been jack-knifed, broken-down or abandoned vehicles blocking the road so that gritters and snow ploughs cannot get through. In some cases, the problem has been exacerbated by lorry drivers driving in an uncleared third lane of the motorway, often leading to accidents and jack-knifings.

[Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)]

Many of my constituents in Walthamstow experienced severe difficulties getting into work during last winter’s snow, and I do not share the confidence in the tube system of the hon. Member for Chelsea and Fulham (Greg Hands), because I experienced problems this morning. What discussions has the Secretary of State had with the Mayor of London about how to keep the capital city moving?

[Mr Hammond]

The Highways Agency and the rail directorate within the Department for Transport are in constant contact with Transport for London. TfL has responsibility for strategic roads in London and needs to operate continuously in conjunction with the Highways Agency. My understanding is that the service on the tube network has been pretty good over the last two days. There may be isolated incidents such as that to which the hon. Lady has referred, but on the whole the service has been good.

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State really must get a grip on this situation. For my constituents, Southeastern Trains provides the main route into London as we do not have access to the London underground. We have no trains running on the service through Eltham this morning, yet people are standing on the platforms and the station concourse because they do not know what is going on. What is the Secretary of State doing to make sure that train operating companies are giving up-to-date information to people who might mistakenly be standing on cold platforms waiting for trains that are never going to turn up?

[Mr Hammond]

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the lack of information is inexcusable. The Office of Rail Regulation said this morning that it will have its inspectors out on the Southeastern and Southern networks, looking at the information that is being provided and making sure that operators are meeting their obligations under their franchise contracts, and if they are not they will be dealt with according to the provisions in those franchise contracts.

[Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)]

Abandoned cars and accidents add to the chaos. I understand that once the temperature goes below minus 7°, the tyres that we use on our cars are no longer appropriate and safe. Is the Secretary of State having discussions with car manufacturers and automobile organisations about encouraging people to change over to winter tyres, as they do on the continent?

[Mr Hammond]

We have looked at the issue, and in fact David Quarmby addressed it. The use of winter tyres—snow tyres or even studded tyres—and snow chains is appropriate where people drive for long periods through the winter on compacted snow; it is not appropriate in the situation, as in the UK, where snow is on the ground for relatively short periods. Winter tyres wear out very quickly on normal road surfaces and cause significant damage to those surfaces, so they would not be appropriate in the UK situation.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. There is heavy pressure on time, so we must now move on to business questions, in the use of which, of course, the ingenuity of colleagues is legendary.

Business of the House

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Commons Chamber

12:00

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House give us the forthcoming business?

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George Young)]

The business for the week commencing 6 December will include:

Monday 6 December—Opposition Day [8th allotted day]. There will be a debate entitled “The Unfair Distribution and Impact of Cuts to Local Government Funding”.

Tuesday 7 December—Second Reading of the European Union Bill.

Wednesday 8 December—Estimates Day [1st allotted day]. There will be a debate on police funding for 2011-12 and the Department for International Development’s assistance to Zimbabwe. Further details for the second of these debates will be given in the Official Report.

[The information is as follows: Department for International Development’s assistance to Zimbabwe (8th Report from the International Development Committee of Session 2009-10, HC 252); Government Response—Cmd 7899.]

At 7 pm the House will be asked to agree all outstanding estimates.

Thursday 9 December—Proceedings on the Consolidated Fund Bill, followed by a motion to approve resolution on increasing the higher amount which is to be applied under the Higher Education Act 2004, and a motion relating to the draft Higher Education (Basic Amount) (England) Regulations.

The provisional business for the week commencing 13 December will include:

Monday 13 December—Second Reading of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill.

Tuesday 14 December—Consideration of Lords Amendments, followed by remaining stages of the Terrorist-Asset Freezing Bill [Lords], followed by consideration of Lords Amendments.

Wednesday 15 December—Second Reading of a Bill.

Thursday 16 December—Motion relating to park homes, followed by a general debate to be nominated by the Backbench Business Committee.

I should also like to inform the House that the business in Westminster Hall for 16 December will be:

Thursday 16 December—A debate on drugs policy.

[Hilary Benn]

I thank the Leader of the House for his answer. Will the right hon. Gentleman explain why the programme motion on the European Union Bill published today plans to give the House only four days for Committee consideration and remaining stages? It is a major constitutional Bill, and the time proposed is wholly inadequate, especially when compared with other recent European Bills. I am sure that many Government Members share our view, so will the Leader think again?

On the plan almost to treble tuition fees, we have just had it confirmed that the vote will be next week, so when will we see the text of the proposals? Of course, the question that everybody wants to ask is, how will Liberal Democrat MPs vote?

That brings me to the Deputy Prime Minister, who has continued to hawk his guilty conscience around the television studios. I must tell you, Mr Speaker, that I have not checked overnight to see whether he has given an interview to Kazakhstan state television, but last week he suggested that, after carefully considering all the arguments and weighing up the pros and cons of the proposals, the outcome might well be that Liberal Democrat MPs decide, in a show of resolute unity, to abstain—in other words, to sit on the fence, the traditional resting place throughout the ages of Liberal Democrats faced with a difficult decision.

What a stroke of genius! Why did the Deputy Prime Minister not make a statement to confirm that earlier in the week when he had the chance? Think of the plaudits he would have won from students throughout the country for making a pledge of principled abstention; think of the difficulties he would have avoided; think of the money that would have been saved on all those plane fares to Kazakhstan and back—because the Deputy Prime Minister had to be hustled out of the country to be protected from being asked over and over again, “How are you going to vote?” It is going to be a very expensive betrayal all round.

When the Leader of the House gets on the phone to Astana, will he also ask the Deputy Prime Minister to explain why back in the summer he told the House that an £80 million loan to Sheffield Forgemasters was completely unaffordable, whereas now we are told that a loan of several billion pounds to the Irish banks is affordable? May we have a statement clearing up that minor contradiction?

Last week, the Prime Minister, during his doomed attempt to defend the cuts in school sport partnerships, told us to trust the judgment of head teachers. So, what about the judgment of 60 head teachers from throughout England who, in a letter, describe the decision to scrap the scheme with no consultation as “ignorant”, “destructive”, “contradictory”, “self-defeating” and “unjustified”? I think we could say that they are pretty unhappy, so does the Leader of the House have any news for us about an apology from the Prime Minister for having disgracefully attacked the partnerships and called them a failure? When will the Prime Minister make a statement about the U-turn on which he is clearly now working, much to the discomfort of his hapless Education Secretary?

When the Prime Minister comes to the House, will he explain another U-turn that he has made? Before the election, he said that any Minister who came to him with proposals for cuts in front-line services would be “sent packing”. Yet, that is exactly what we now see, with cuts in front-line policing from the Home Secretary, cuts in school sport from the Education Secretary and cuts to local services from the Communities and Local Government Secretary. When can we expect the Prime Minister to live up to his word, or is it just the promises that he casually made that have been sent on their way?

Finally, talking of sending people packing, and following Lord Young’s unhappy experience, I note that last week the Prime Minister was forced to denounce Mr Howard Flight, even before the ermine had touched his shoulders. May we have a statement from the Prime Minister on the criteria he uses for appointing, first, advisers and, secondly, peers? Given the rate at which they are saying things that are unacceptable, he does not seem to be exercising very good judgment.

[Sir George Young]

May I congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on that performance, which was far more impressive than the Leader of the Opposition’s yesterday? Given the impeccable Labour pedigree of the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), may I say that he is the only Opposition Member who can say with pride that he is a son not of Gordon, but of Tony?

Turning to the questions that the right hon. Gentleman poses, I have to say that four days on the Floor of the House is a generous allocation of time for the Bill to which he refers, so long as the House uses it intelligently and does not resort to the sort of tactics that we saw during previous constitutional Bills, parts of which were taken on the Floor of the House.

Turning to the right hon. Gentleman’s second question on higher education, I have to say that he is in no position at all to talk about unity. Yesterday, in an article in the Evening Standard, the Leader of the Opposition reiterated his long-term policy aim, saying that he wanted a “fairer graduate tax system.” Here is what the shadow Chancellor thinks about that:

“We had the argument about the graduate tax. I just cannot understand why going back there is anything other than a kind of sop to the left.”

And the former Transport Secretary said of the same policy:

“The trouble is, it can’t be done”.

On the specific question that the right hon. Member for Leeds Central poses, we expect to table the motion for the higher cap in the next day or two, and in good time for the debate. The statutory instrument relating to raising the lower cap has already been laid and is on page 1928 of the Order Paper.

We have debated the loan to Sheffield Forgemasters on several occasions, and when we introduce the legislation the House will have an opportunity to debate the loan to Ireland.

There was an apology on school sports, and it came from the shadow Education Secretary about the policy that he bequeathed us. In the debate on Tuesday, he said:

“I am not arguing that it is perfect. Of course it could probably be made more efficient”.—[Official Report, 30 November 2010; Vol. 519, c. 709.]

That is exactly what the Government are doing. We are delivering school sports differently from the previous Government, not pursuing their centralised PE and sport strategy. We will redeploy resources and people to put a new emphasis on competitive sport.

Neither the right hon. Gentleman nor any other Opposition Member will have any credibility whatsoever until they tell the House and the country how they would have delivered the cuts they had pencilled in before the election. They have totally failed to fill in the blanks ever since.

Finally, on peers, I am sure that my noble Friend-to-be, Lord Flight, will make a useful contribution in the other place. Given time, I could do some research and find out what contributions have been made by Members appointed to the other place by the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) of comparable value to those of Howard Flight.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Given the level of interest and the pressure on time, I appeal to colleagues to ask single, short questions and to the Leader of the House to offer his characteristically succinct replies.

[Mr Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)]

I always used to think that my right hon. Friend was a progressive, but I am beginning to have my doubts. Is he aware that as long ago as 2008, this House was promised a debate in Government time on the electronic petitioning of Parliament? It is now nearly 2011 and we are still waiting. When, oh when, can we debate e-petitions?

[Sir George Young]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend and to the Procedure Committee for their work on electronic petitions. He will know that there is a commitment in the coalition agreement to take the issue forward. I hope that my office will be in touch with his Select Committee shortly to indicate how we plan to bridge the gap between House and country by taking forward the agenda of petitions. The commitment is that when a petition reaches 100,000, it will become eligible for a debate in this House. I am anxious to make progress on that agenda.

[Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab)]

Following on from the point of the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire (Mr Knight) on e-petitions, will the Leader of the House confirm that the Prime Minister is cancelling his No. 10 Downing street e-petitions site? If so, will he take heed of the right hon. Gentleman’s advice and speed up the process of holding that debate in the House?

[Sir George Young]

The hon. Gentleman is right that the No. 10 e-petitions site has been taken down, but we envisage carrying forward the ability to petition on the Directgov site.

[Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)]

May we have a debate in Government time on equality of opportunity in public expenditure? This week, the Welsh Assembly announced that no Welsh student would pay increased tuition fees. Why is that policy and facility not open to my constituents’ children, given that English taxpayers are largely financing such Welsh largesse?

[Sir George Young]

I understand the aggravation expressed by my hon. Friend’s constituents, but the situation he describes is a logical outcome of the policy of devolution, and of giving the Assembly of Wales and the Parliament in Scotland autonomy over issues that were previously reserved to this House.

[Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)]

Is the Leader of the House aware that the Backbench Business Committee is conducting an experiment with the pre-Christmas recess Adjournment debate on 21 December? It is doing so in response to the frustration expressed by many Back Benchers, who would like a substantive response to the many issues that they raise in such debates. Will he join me in encouraging hon. Members to apply to the Table Office for the new 10-minute departmental slots by the deadline of 3 pm on Monday 13 December? That will enable the Committee to create departmental groupings so that hon. Members, not least the hon. Member for Southend West (Mr Amess), will receive a ministerial response to the many and varied issues they raise.

[Sir George Young]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her public service announcement. She is right to draw attention to the different regime, which is on the Order Paper, proposed for the pre-Christmas Adjournment debate. That will pose an intellectual challenge to my hon. Friend the Member for Southend West (Mr Amess), who manages to raise about 30 subjects in a five-minute speech, because he will have to choose one of them. As always, I welcome the way in which the Backbench Business Committee is using the space it has to develop new ways of tackling issues and to provide the House with fresh opportunities to debate matters. I am sure that hon. Members will respond to her invitation to put in for subjects.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

Many people would find it an unappealing prospect to spend an evening in the hot shopping environment of Hamley’s, heaving with excitable children and their stressed parents in the Christmas rush. It is certainly no place for Arctic animals, but, shockingly, Hamley’s has advertised in-store displays of live reindeer and penguins. May we have a debate on how animal welfare should be for life, and not forgotten at Christmas?

[Sir George Young]

Having spent some time in Hamley’s shopping for things for children, I understand the pressure on those who go through that ordeal. I will raise with the appropriate Minister the issue of animal welfare that the hon. Lady touched on to see whether there has been a breach of regulations.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

May we have an urgent statement on the meeting that took place this week between the Defence Minister and President Rajapaksa of Sri Lanka? We understand that it was supposed to be a private meeting, but throughout the meeting, of course, the Defence Minister remained the Defence Minister. Bearing in mind that we are pressing for an inquiry into war crimes in Sri Lanka, may we have a statement on that meeting?

[Sir George Young]

Like the right hon. Gentleman, I understand that it was a private meeting. I cannot guarantee a statement, but on 14 December there will be an opportunity to ask questions to Ministers from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend make time available for a statement or debate on the decision of the Legal Services Commission to withdraw legal aid from the foetal anticonvulsant syndrome group, a group of parents who have campaigned for the past 10 years for justice for their children, who have disabilities caused by drugs taken by the mothers during pregnancy? Some £4 million of legal aid had been agreed with the Legal Services Commission, but on the eve of the trial it withdrew the funding. The litigants now have until 20 December to get it reinstated. I think that that decision should be reviewed in this House.

[Sir George Young]

I understand the concern that my hon. Friend shares with the House. I will raise the issue with the Lord Chancellor to see whether there is any action that he can take to help.

[Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab)]

In the past 36 hours, the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority has been contacting members of the Lobby in this place, offering to identify Members whom it believes have submitted newsworthy claims. Will the Leader of the House seek an urgent meeting with Sir Ian Kennedy, not to listen to more of his bogus denials, but to warn him that this House will not be bullied by such unacceptable and disgraceful behaviour?

[Sir George Young]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I read with interest today the newspaper article that he wrote. The information that appeared in The Times yesterday was the result of a freedom of information request to IPSA from that newspaper, and it withheld the names of the hon. Members whose claims were rejected. There will be a debate on IPSA shortly and I will ensure that the hon. Gentleman, if he catches your eye, Mr Speaker, receives a response to the specific point that he has raised. I quite agree that there can be no question of any Member of this House being bullied.

[Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con)]

My local Communication Workers Union branch and I appreciate the importance and necessity of the modernisation of Royal Mail. However, according to the most recent quality of postal services report, my constituency has the second-worst postal service in England and Wales. May we have a debate on the quality of postal services so that people such as my constituents do not have to suffer what is sometimes billed as “progress”?

[Sir George Young]

I admire the way in which my hon. Friend has campaigned for a higher quality of postal service in his constituency. Modernisation must not be held up as an excuse for poor service. However, I will raise this issue with the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), who has responsibility for postal affairs. Our legislative proposals that are going through Parliament are designed to drive up the quality of postal services.

[Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab)]

The Leader of the House will recall that a week ago I pressed him about the non-appearance of the localism Bill, which one of his right hon. colleagues announced would be published imminently. The Leader of the House was more cautious and said only that it would be published shortly. He has not said anything further about it today, but there was a mysterious reference in his statement to the Second Reading of “a Bill” on 15 December. Will he tell the House whether that mysterious Bill is the localism Bill? Is his coyness connected to the shambolic preparation of that Bill in the Department for Communities and Local Government?

[Sir George Young]

There is no shambles anywhere in the administration of this coalition Government. However, I have to say that the gestation period for the localism Bill has been a little longer than anticipated. Last week, I said that it would appear shortly, and it will appear very shortly. I hope that it will be before the House well before Christmas.

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

This week’s Office for Budget Responsibility report states that

“if left unaddressed, upward pressure on spending from the ageing of the population might well eliminate the primary budget surplus”.

May we have a debate on that matter? May we also consider the innovative schemes run by local councils up and down the country to address it?

[Sir George Young]

I applaud any lateral thinking by local authorities throughout the country to deal with demographic pressures. One of the reasons we decided to increase in real terms the budget of the NHS was precisely to deal with the issue that my hon. Friend has touched on—the ageing of the population. Related to that is the extra £2 billion announced in October for adult services and social services. I hope that those, too, will have some impact in dealing with the demands for services as a result of the ageing of the population. When we get the localism Bill, my hon. Friend may have an opportunity to develop his argument at greater length.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

I wonder whether Members could get greater notice of statements in the House. I have had the experience of being informed by journalists about statements the night before. If journalists can be informed, surely Members can be given greater notice.

[Sir George Young]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Whenever possible, we try to give notice of a statement on the Order Paper, so that when Members come in, they can see that the Government are planning to make a statement. That is not always possible, but I wholly agree that the House should be informed at least at the same time as the press of any statements that the Government plan to make.

[Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)]

Will the Leader of the House arrange for a clear statement to be made on ministerial collective responsibility? I appreciate that established conventions might need to be varied to accommodate a coalition Government, with the coalition partners voting differently in certain circumstances, but it surely cannot be right for Ministers, including the Chief Secretary to the Treasury today, to agonise publicly in newspapers about whether they are going to support the Government in the Division Lobby.

[Sir George Young]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that issue. It is within his memory and mine that when we had a single-party Government in the 1970s collective responsibility was suspended during the referendum on whether we should stay in the European Community, so there are precedents within single-party Governments for suspending collective responsibility. We have a coalition Government, so some of the normal conventions are not strictly applicable. I draw his attention to section 21 of the coalition agreement, which says in respect of the incident to which I think he is referring, that

“arrangements will be made to enable Liberal Democrat MPs to abstain in any vote.”

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

I am concerned about the impact of Government plans on students in year 12 who are currently in receipt of the education maintenance allowance. It looks as though they may not be eligible for EMA support next year. If so, it would cause unintended hardship, which I suspect the Government do not want. Will the Leader of the House arrange for a statement to be made to clarify that issue?

[Sir George Young]

I agree that it is important that students should be able to continue their education, and I understand the issue that the hon. Gentleman has just raised about EMA. Rather than arrange for a statement, I will certainly pursue with the appropriate Minister the question of what certainty and assurances can be given to those who need another year, after this year’s EMA runs out, to continue their courses.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

Has my right hon. Friend seen my early-day motion 587, which is about creating a Royal Society of Apprentices and is signed by MPs from all parties?

[That this House welcomes the Government's plans to restore apprenticeships to their former glory; considers that such a change in policy must be supported by a change in culture; believes that this Parliament should create a new golden age of vocational training, where apprenticeships are seen as prestigious and of equal value to a university degree; further believes that a Royal Society of Apprentices, similar to the Law Society or the British Medical Association, should be established to replicate the vibrant social life of universities for students in vocational training; further believes that there should be an annual apprentices day in every local authority, which would build on the already successful Vocational Qualifications Day and act as a formal graduation ceremony for vocational students; and calls on the Government to add its voice in support of these efforts in the coming months and years.]

Yesterday I met representatives of the main apprenticeship organisations around the country, and the relevant Minister has also given his backing to the idea. May we have a debate on how we might put it into practice?

[Sir George Young]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that matter. It strikes me that he might apply for one of the slots in the pre-Christmas Adjournment debate, recently advertised by the hon. Member for North East Derbyshire (Natascha Engel). He would then have an opportunity to develop his case at greater length and get a confident and, I hope, positive response from the appropriate Minister.

[Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)]

The Leader of the House will have seen the reports of concern at the highest levels of the US Government about the state of affairs in Russia—kleptocracy, mafia and state functionaries linked to crime. May we have an early debate on the rule of law in Russia, with particular reference to the lawyer of the British citizen Bill Browder, Sergei Magnitsky, who was put to death almost exactly one year ago? We really have to raise our voices more loudly about the awful things happening in Russia, whatever our geopolitical needs for a strategic partnership with Mr Putin.

[Sir George Young]

There will be an opportunity at Foreign Office questions on 14 December to raise that specific issue. I cannot promise a debate, but in connection with what has been coming out through WikiLeaks, the Government deplore any unauthorised disclosure of information, particularly if, as the Americans have alleged, it may lead to the risk of loss of life.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

When can we expect a debate and vote on the bailing out of the Irish Republic?

[Sir George Young]

The assistance to the Republic of Ireland requires primary legislation; it requires a Bill. There will be an opportunity to speak and vote on that, and I anticipate that it may come forward in the relatively near future.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

Following the Prime Minister’s intervention in the school sport funding debacle, we have heard that he has asked the right hon. Member for West Dorset (Mr Letwin), the Cabinet Office Minister, to review the reorganisation of the health service proposals made by the Secretary of State for Health. Those proposals will cost £3 billion, and wide concern has been expressed about them. May we have an urgent debate in Government time, so that it can be explained why the Prime Minister needs to review the Secretary of State’s proposals for NHS reorganisation?

[Sir George Young]

The Government will introduce in due course a health reform Bill, which will be an opportunity for the hon. Gentleman to develop his case and for the Secretary of State for Health to explain why our proposals for the NHS will deliver a higher quality of service than we are getting at the moment.

[David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con)]

Further to questions about the situation in Parliament square, is my right hon. Friend aware that there are now tents on the pavement outside at least one Government Department? Does he not think that that reflects very badly on the Government, the Greater London authority and the Metropolitan police? Why is this part of Westminster the only area in the whole United Kingdom where people can pitch a tent and not be moved on by the police immediately?

[Sir George Young]

The short answer is that that is because of a somewhat surprising decision—which, of course, one cannot criticise—made by a magistrate, who decided that that pavement was not a pavement because very few people used it. The good news for my hon. Friend is that we have now published the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill, which deals specifically with encampments on Parliament square. The measures include a power to allow local authorities to attach a power of seizure to byelaws, to allow them to deal promptly and effectively with the nuisances to which my hon. Friend has just referred.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Has the Leader of the House seen the letter in The Times this morning from well over 100 senior academics about the savage cuts to higher education? Does he not agree that Members on both sides of the House care about the future of higher education? May we have a real debate about the future of higher education and whether the savage cuts are really necessary?

[Sir George Young]

We had a real debate last Tuesday, when the Opposition chose it as a subject; I hope that the hon. Gentleman is not saying that that was not a real debate. We will have a further debate next Thursday on tuition fees, and there will be an opportunity later to debate when we need to change the legislation to raise the cap on the interest rate. I honestly believe that there have been adequate opportunities, and there will be even more, to debate the future of higher education.

[Greg Hands (Chelsea and Fulham) (Con)]

Staying on the subject of higher education, may we also have a debate about Members of the House who are supporting direct action by students? Earlier, I notified the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) that I would be raising this matter. His Twitter feed this morning said:

“Support Support The Occupations!....To all the student occupations I send a message of my support and solidarity.”

Will my right hon. Friend join me in agreeing that we should be democratically debating the measures rather than taking part in the disruption of our higher education institutions?

[Sir George Young]

I entirely agree. All hon. Members should act responsibly and should not do anything that encourages unlawful action. I think I read that the hon. Member to whom my hon. Friend refers was going to have a conversation with the Opposition Chief Whip; his future can be safely dealt with by those authoritative hands.

[Chris Leslie (Nottingham East) (Lab/Co-op)]

Can we have a proper debate shortly on the impact of the cold weather on domestic energy consumption? The Leader of the House will know that yesterday there was a 25% spike in domestic gas consumption. This is particularly worrying as Ofgem has opened an investigation into potential profiteering by the main energy utility firms. I hope that he agrees that this would be a very bad time for those energy companies to be raising bills further.

[Sir George Young]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who raises a genuine issue about those challenged by winter fuel payments. We have permanently increased the cold weather payment to £25 for seven consecutive days, and the winter fuel payment will continue to be paid at the higher rate of £250 for households with someone aged up to 79. This includes a temporary increase of £50 and £100. Winter fuel payments will remain exactly as budgeted for by the previous Government. On the specific question of exploitation, I will pass his concerns on to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change to see whether there is any action that he can take.

[Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House expand on his earlier answer about WikiLeaks and arrange for an updated Government statement on this organisation? There could be serious implications for our armed forces and others, and they need to know that we are doing all we can to protect them.

[Sir George Young]

As I said earlier, the Government deplore these unauthorised leaks of information, which have the potential to destabilise relationships between countries and lead to a risk to life. We deplore what has been put in the public domain, and it is not our policy to comment on unauthorised disclosure of information.

[Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab)]

Further to the question by the hon. Member for Banbury (Tony Baldry), we have a Business Secretary who develops a policy on tuition fees, tells the country that it is the best policy possible, and then comes to this House and tells us that he has a strong inclination not to vote for his own policy. What are the constitutional implications of this departure?

[Sir George Young]

The Cabinet has a united policy on this issue, which is more than the shadow Cabinet does.

[Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)]

Labour Members welcome the Prime Minister’s rethink about scrapping school sport partnerships. While we try to refrain from saying “We told you so”, can the Leader of the House ensure that the Government make a statement on this issue before the Christmas recess to end the uncertainty for schools in my constituency and across the country about their budgets and their ability to continue with sports provision?

[Sir George Young]

We will make a statement in due course about the allocation of resources to local authorities. As I said earlier, we will be delivering school sports in a different way from the previous Government, and we will announce how we will spend the money we have allocated for school sport in due course.

[Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab)]

May we have a debate on where Ministers make statements, to whom, and at what time? We were promised a statement by the Deputy Prime Minister on the progress relating to immigration centres, Yarl’s Wood in particular, and that statement should have been made this week. Today, we are told by the press that he is going to make the statement via a video link from Kazakhstan to a charitable organisation. Is not that disrespectful to the House?

[Sir George Young]

The coalition agreement is quite clear that we want to phase out the detention of children for immigration purposes in centres such as Yarl’s Wood. At the moment, we are looking at alternatives—namely, looking after families with children in the community rather than in detention. When those alternatives have been developed, the House will be informed in due course.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

Given that the coalition has said that because of the Post Office subsidy and the plans for privatisation there will be no further post office closures, can we please have a debate about why a post office in Welwyn Park road in my constituency is going to close imminently?

[Sir George Young]

I think the Government said that there would be no planned post office closures along the lines that we had under the previous Government, when whole swathes of post offices were closed as part of a policy that that Government developed. We are not going to do that, but of course we cannot stop individual post offices closing if the sub-postmaster wants to withdraw and no one else can be found to take over.

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

In the light of some of the exposures on WikiLeaks, may we have a debate on the 22 days when the coalition was formed? May I make the helpful suggestion to the right hon. Gentleman that perhaps we should set aside the Standing Orders of the House and have Mervyn King lead the debate on behalf of the Government? In that way, we could at least hold to account someone who played a major role in forming the coalition Government.

[Sir George Young]

The hon. Gentleman said that that would be a helpful suggestion, but I am not sure that I agree with him.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

The right hon. Gentleman is well aware of the constitution and procedures of this House—probably better aware than anyone here—so surely he must have some concerns about the slightly ridiculous situation created by the possibility of a Minister coming to the Dispatch Box in the tuition fees debate to try to persuade the rest of the House to vote for a Government policy when he is not persuaded to vote for it himself.

[Sir George Young]

The hon. Gentleman raises an issue that I have already dealt with. The coalition agreement is absolutely clear that on this particular issue Liberal Democrats are entitled to abstain.

[Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House arrange for an urgent debate on the provision of speech and language therapy in schools? Dylan Scothern is a six-year-old autistic boy, the son of Rachel Scothern, a constituent of mine. Because he is six years of age, he has had speech and language therapy taken away from him on the basis that he is too old. That is clearly ridiculous. Whatever the situation, an autistic boy needs speech and language therapy. The decision to provide it only for children up to the age of five is nonsense, and Dylan deserves better than that.

[Sir George Young]

Of course he does. I am not aware that there has been any change of policy by the coalition Government on this issue. I think that we are carrying forward the policy that we inherited, with which the hon. Gentleman may be familiar.

[Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)]

Does the Leader of the House agree with the Speaker, who strongly deprecates the practice of late transfer of oral questions by Government Departments at late notice? If so, what action does he intend to take on this matter?

[Sir George Young]

The answer to the question, “Do I agree with the Speaker?”, is always yes. I should like to make some inquiries about the particular transfer to which the hon. Gentleman refers. If a question is transferred for good reason from one Department to another, then the Department to which it is transferred should reply promptly. If that has not happened, of course I will chase it up.

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

BBC online news has reported the execution of Shahla Jahed in Iran after nine years’ imprisonment. Amnesty International said that there were flaws in the trial. May we have an urgent debate on women and human rights to discuss this case, and particularly that of Sakineh Ashtiani, who still remains under threat?

[Sir George Young]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. I read today in the paper that tragic story of the execution and the circumstances in which it took place. There are real issues about human rights in Iran—the two cases to which she referred and many others. We have made constant representations to the Iranian embassy here and we are taking action through our European partners. I will of course raise her concern with my right hon. Friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary to see whether there is any further action we can take.

[Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)]

May we have a debate in Government time about the disgraceful practice of banks, particularly in relation to internet bank accounts, whereby they set up headline promises of high interest rates that are subsequently changed so that it is virtually impossible to find out what rate of interest one is now obtaining? Should not banks be required to display on their internet sites, when the statement comes up, what level of interest is being paid on the account so that people know when they should be moving to other interest-earning accounts?

[Sir George Young]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady. She is right. Many consumers have found that the high rate of interest they thought they were earning on their account has come to an end without their being notified. We had a debate on the banks, I think, on Monday. However, I will raise with Treasury Ministers whether we have any plans to increase transparency about the interest earned on current accounts.

[Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)]

Further to the answer that the Leader of the House gave to my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland (Tom Blenkinsop), I am delighted to hear that he agrees with the Speaker that the practice of late transfer of questions is despicable, and that they should be answered promptly. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport has decided to transfer questions on the impact of the abolition of school sport partnerships on participation in sport that were tabled by me and my hon. Friend the Member for Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland and were chosen in the ballot for answer this Monday. Furthermore, neither of us has received an answer from the Department for Education on this matter, or indeed a date when we can expect an answer. Will the Leader of the House therefore commit to coming back to the House with detailed explanations as to what he has done in talking to his colleagues about ending such practices?

[Sir George Young]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady. My hon. Friend the Deputy Leader of the House was in the Chamber when the original point of order was raised. At his initiative, inquiries are now being undertaken to find out what has gone wrong, and we will report back to the House in the usual way.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I am extremely grateful to the Leader of the House and to colleagues for their co-operation, as a result of which 35 Back-Bench Members were able, in a pretty constrained time scale, to pose questions to the Leader of the House.

Linda Norgrove

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Commons Chamber

12:39

[The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)]

With permission, I shall inform the House of the outcome of the investigation into the tragic death of the British aid worker, Linda Norgrove, who was taken hostage by insurgents in Afghanistan on 26 September, and who died during a US-led rescue operation on the night of 8 October.

As I informed the House in my statement on 11 October, initial reports about the rescue suggested that Linda Norgrove’s death was cause by the detonation of a suicide vest worn by one of her captors, but new information came to light on the morning of 11 October that called that account into question. The Prime Minister therefore agreed with the international security assistance force commander General Petraeus, and confirmed with President Obama, that a full US-UK investigation would be launched, reporting to General Mattis, commander of US central command, with a remit to investigate the operation itself, the inaccuracy of the original accounts and to make recommendations for the future.

Today, I should like to update the House on the outcome of that investigation, but before I do so, I pay tribute to Linda Norgrove’s family, who have shown inspiring strength, dignity and fortitude throughout their terrible ordeal. They, above all others, deserve to have the fullest account possible. Throughout the investigation, Foreign Office officials have been in close contact with the Norgrove family. Linda’s parents, John and Lorna, were briefed yesterday on its outcome, and I met them this morning to discuss its findings.

I shall now report how the investigation was conducted, the conclusions it reached and what action will now follow. However, I must first remind the House that Her Majesty’s coroner for Wiltshire and Swindon is legally responsible for determining the cause of death, and my statement today must not in any way prejudice the course of his inquiries.

The investigation team began work immediately, led by US Major-General Joseph Votel and British Brigadier Robert Nitsch. A 10-man investigative team worked for two and a half weeks in Afghanistan. It conducted interviews with all the personnel involved in the rescue attempt, and assessed hours of video evidence and hundreds of pages of documentary evidence. I am grateful to the investigation team for the thorough work it has done and for the willingness of our US allies to share their most sensitive operational information with us.

We judged that Linda Norgrove’s life was in grave danger from the moment she was abducted, and we feared that her captors would pass her higher up the Taliban chain of command or move her to more inaccessible terrain. We also judged that the only credible prospect of securing her release was through a rescue attempt, which is why I authorised such an attempt to be made.

Locating and rescuing Linda Norgrove became the sole mission of approximately 1,000 US and Afghan forces, leading to significantly stepped-up activity in the region where it was believed she was being held. As a result of those intensive efforts, Linda’s captors were tracked to two small groups of buildings high in the Dewagal valley in Kunar province, a region of steep mountain valleys and peaks ranging from 8,000 to 14,000 feet, which were accessible in most areas only by pack animal or by foot.

On the night of 8 October, a rescue attempt was launched following analysis and surveillance of the area. The rescue force, chosen for its operational knowledge of the area, specialist training and experience in carrying out hostage rescue operations, set off in two separate helicopters. The operation took place during the night in total darkness. US forces were required to land on the near-vertical incline of a rugged mountainside, 8,000 feet in height, within a narrow valley, and to assault a series of buildings built in to the steep slope on several levels.

On the basis of intelligence, analysis and surveillance, it was judged that Linda was being held in the upper group of two groups of buildings. One of the two teams of soldiers landed near the lower group of buildings. The team came under attack as soon as they left the helicopter. As the soldiers progressed towards those lower buildings, Linda Norgrove’s captors came out and were engaged by the soldiers who were advancing on a narrow ledge and under threat. A grenade was thrown by a member of the rescue team—who feared for his own life and for those of his team—towards a gully from which some of the insurgents had emerged. When the grenade was thrown, no member of the team had seen or heard Linda Norgrove. All the actions that I have described so far took place within the space of less than a minute.

The team moved on immediately to the other group of buildings higher up the mountainside, where it was believed Linda Norgrove was being held. It was when the team returned to the first location that it became apparent that Linda had been taken by her captors into the gully into which the grenade had been thrown, and where her body was now discovered. She was examined immediately by the team medics. The investigation team had access to the provisional post-mortem results, which concluded that Linda Norgrove died as a result of penetrating fragmentation injuries to the head and chest. After the investigation, it is clear that those injuries were caused by the grenade.

This incredibly difficult operation was carried out with the utmost courage by elite US forces. The United Kingdom is grateful that they risked their own lives in the attempt to rescue Linda. They did so just as if she were one of their own. None the less, it is a matter of concern that the facts of how Linda Norgrove died were not made clear immediately after the operation was carried out. Initial reports suggested that she had died as a result of the detonation of a suicide vest because of the nature of the wounds found on the captor lying closest to her. The explosion observed was in line with the team’s experience of suicide vests or other weaponry exploding. Although the US soldiers did report their own use of a grenade, it was not immediately reported up the military chain of command. It was only on later examination of the video footage that the possibility that a grenade was thrown became known to more senior officers.

The investigation team found that the failure to disclose information that a grenade was thrown breached US military law. As a result, members of the rescue team have been disciplined for failing to provide a complete and full account of their actions in accordance with US military procedure. I cannot announce any more details of the disciplinary action taken by the military of another nation, but the fact that that action has been taken will confirm to the House how seriously the US authorities regard the matter.

As a result of the investigation, the US military is reviewing post-operation procedures to ensure that the true sequence of events in such complicated operations is revealed earlier and more accurately than was the case on that tragic occasion. In the aftermath of a rescue operation in which a hostage died, the US military is conducting a number of other reviews of the tactics, techniques and procedures involved in hostage rescue operations. Senior British military officers have been briefed on the results of the investigation and will ensure that the lessons learned from the operation are shared.

Following this statement, the US authorities will release their own statement on the outcome of the investigation, a copy of which I will place in the Library of the House. The coroner will now be able to conduct his inquest, which has been adjourned until the new year. Once he has issued his verdict, it will be possible for the investigating team to publish its findings, including judgments made by the investigators, but in advance of the coroner’s verdict I cannot go into that greater level of detail.

Linda Norgrove’s death was a terrible tragedy. Her parents have paid tribute to her inspiring devotion to the people of Afghanistan and her love for the country. I believe that all in this House will have been moved by her example and her dedication. Her parents have set up a foundation in their daughter’s name that will honour her memory and fund projects that support education and health for Afghan women and children, including scholarships to help Afghan women to go to university. The House will want to join me in paying tribute to all those working to support the people of Afghanistan in extremely difficult circumstances, and in sending our sincere condolences to Linda Norgrove’s family, as they come to terms with their irreplaceable loss.

[Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)]

I thank the Foreign Secretary for providing such a thorough statement today on such a tragic and difficult set of events, especially as he is constrained by the inquest procedures. I join him in sending our deepest condolences to the family and friends of Linda Norgrove and in paying tribute to Linda Norgrove’s parents, John and Lorna Norgrove, who have acted with such great dignity and strength since the tragic death of their daughter. The House will want to wish well the Linda Norgrove Foundation, which they have set up to provide education and health and child care for women and families in Afghanistan, to continue the courageous and selfless work to which Linda Norgrove dedicated her life.

I thank the Foreign Secretary for the details of his response today. Linda Norgrove’s family have made it absolutely clear that they are grateful for the bravery and efforts of the US special forces who attempted to rescue her, and the whole House will agree with the Foreign Secretary’s tribute to their bravery. We are grateful that they risked their lives to attempt to save Linda Norgrove.

Operations such as the one launched by those US forces are of course high risk, and we must all recognise that success can never be guaranteed. The practicalities of that specific operation were especially difficult. I know that the House will also want to condemn utterly the actions of Linda Norgrove’s kidnappers, who must take responsibility for putting her life at risk from the very moment of her kidnapping.

We welcome the swift conclusion of the inquiry and not only the commitment of the US forces to investigate the events, but their readiness to involve senior British personnel in the inquiry. That point was raised when the Foreign Secretary made his first statement on the matter and I am grateful to him for taking it forward.

It would be helpful if the Foreign Secretary would address a few further points about the inquiry’s conclusions and the importance of the lessons that are being learned. He said in his statement that the special forces believed that Linda Norgrove was held in an upper group of buildings when in fact she was held in a lower area, in a gully. The operational conditions were clearly difficult, as he said, but will he tell the House whether the investigation examined the intelligence before the operation, or whether that will be done as part of the subsequent review? Can any lessons be learned?

Will the Foreign Secretary tell us more about the grenade that was thrown, including about the practice of using such grenades in a rescue operation of this nature? Was that covered by the investigation, or will it be dealt with in the US forces’ subsequent consideration of such cases? Again, will lessons be learned?

The Foreign Secretary set out further information about why the facts did not emerge immediately, but it would be helpful if he would clarify part of his statement. He said: “Although the US soldiers did report their own use of a grenade, this was not immediately reported up the military chain of command.” However, he also said that “failure to disclose information that a grenade was thrown breached US military law” and that members of the rescue team had been disciplined as a result. It was unclear from his statement whether the investigation concluded that the failure of information lay with the rescue team or the upward reporting processes. It would be helpful if he could give us clarity on the matter so that lessons can be learned.

The Foreign Secretary is aware of the considerable concern and confusion that was caused by the inaccurate information that was disseminated in the immediate aftermath of Linda Norgrove’s death. At the time of the previous statement, I raised concern about the early information that was given to journalists by the Foreign Office and the apparent level of certainty that was given in responses about suicide vests and in reply to journalists’ questions about grenades. Although he has provided details of why incorrect information was held, may I press him further on the certainty in the responses, because clearly there must have been considerable uncertainty about the events at that time, given the difficulty of the operations? Will he say whether Government communications have been reviewed in light of that?

Will the Foreign Secretary tell us how the outcome of the inquiry and the details of what he has said today came to be, regrettably, reported in The Sunday Telegraph? I hope that that matter concerns him, given that the importance of accurate information has been at the heart of the case.

This tragic case reminds us all of the dangers faced by those who work so bravely to support the people of Afghanistan. The civilian effort in Afghanistan, especially working on the ground with Afghans in rural areas, is crucial to finding and sustaining a political settlement and lasting stability in the country. We all want Linda Norgrove’s work in Afghanistan to be continued, and we pay tribute to her work and that which other aid workers are doing today.

[Mr Hague]

I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for her questions and wider remarks. She joined me in paying tribute to Linda Norgrove’s family and extending the House’s condolences to them, for which I know that they will be appreciative. The Prime Minister hopes to meet them this afternoon, and he will be able to convey the heartfelt condolences from all quarters of the House.

The right hon. Lady was right to pay tribute to the bravery of the forces involved who, as I said in my statement, operated in total darkness with no moonlight or artificial light of any kind. They disembarked directly into a hostile environment from helicopters that could not land because of the near-vertical nature of the terrain. She was also right to condemn those who were entirely responsible for this chain of events: the people who kidnapped Linda Norgrove and deliberately placed her in grave danger.

As the right hon. Lady acknowledged, the United States has been ready to involve UK officers at a senior level. Our brigadier has had full access to all information and has been fully involved in the investigation, so we have truly had a joint UK-US investigation.

The right hon. Lady was quite right to raise the report of the statement in The Sunday Telegraph at the weekend. I strongly deprecate any advance leaks of, or revelations about, statements to the House, especially those about such a matter. I have made that absolutely clear within Whitehall and I appreciate her reinforcement of that point.

The right hon. Lady asked about the initial information that we gave on the Saturday lunchtime after the rescue operation, when we said it appeared that Linda had died at the hands of her captors or due to the explosion of a suicide vest. We were clear about that because that was the unequivocal information that was given to the Government, and to our embassy and military in Afghanistan. Indeed, that was how senior US officers understood it. During our exchanges on the October statement, I think I said that if we err on the side of transparency, as we try to do in governmental matters these days, it can sometimes lead to apparent certainty. We made a correction as soon as possible. As soon as General Petraeus and his colleagues realised that an inaccurate account might have been given, he was straight on the telephone to No. 10 Downing street and the Prime Minister, and we immediately made a correction that morning. We will all reflect on the dilemma when balancing transparency and showing certainty. However, the Government gave the information that was available to them in good faith.

The investigative team examined the surveillance and intelligence that was available before the operation, and it will make further comments about that in its final report, which will be published at the time of the coroner’s verdict. However, as the House will understand, any details that would reveal how we gather intelligence will, of course, have to be withheld. Nothing in the investigative team’s analysis contradicts the overall analysis that all of us involved came to, which was that the best chance—the only credible chance—for Linda Norgrove to return alive was to mount a rescue operation. However, the team has examined the use of intelligence and the belief that she was being held in a particular group of buildings distinct from the group where she was actually killed.

It is hard for me to make further detailed comments about the use of a grenade without cutting across what the coroner might wish to pursue although, as I said in my statement, the investigative team will make further comments about that in its full report. We should be clear that it is not normal practice for special forces of the United States or the United Kingdom to use grenades—to employ explosive munitions—in a hostage rescue operation. Nevertheless, there are issues in this case about when a hostage rescue operation begins, because the troops involved believed that Linda Norgrove was being held in a different set of buildings from those around which they were fighting at the time a grenade was thrown. We have to understand that to be fair to all concerned.

The right hon. Lady asked about responsibility for not giving information in a timely fashion. I think that I can go so far as to say that responsibility lay with the rescue team, but not its junior members. The disciplinary action has fully reflected the responsibility of the individuals identified by the investigative team as not having passed on information in a timely way.

[Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)]

I welcome the Foreign Secretary’s statement, and join him and the shadow Foreign Secretary in paying tribute to the Norgrove family. The House will want time to digest the contents of the statement, but in the meantime, will my right hon. Friend say a little more about the procedure for authorising rescue attempts of this nature? He said that he had authorised such an attempt to be made. Was that part of a standard operating procedure, and did he actually give the order himself or did he delegate it to others?

[Mr Hague]

I gave the general authority for a rescue attempt to be made, based on the intelligence that we had received, which covered the intelligence and other information that we had received that gave rise to our fears that Linda Norgrove would be taken to more and more inaccessible places, and that she would be passed higher and higher up the Taliban chain of command. We were aware that her life was in grave danger at the time, and within a very short time after her kidnap. Based on that, the normal procedure is for the Foreign Secretary—in this case, with the knowledge and agreement of the Prime Minister—to give the authority for a rescue operation to take place, if he or she thinks that that is the right thing to do. It is also entirely common—and, as in this case, the normal procedure—for the actual details of such an operation to be worked out on the ground in Afghanistan by the forces involved, with a final go-ahead to be given by our representatives in Afghanistan, in this case in the British embassy. So that was the procedure involved.

I would also stress that, in this case, all involved—the military commanders, the staff of our embassy in Kabul and everyone involved in COBRA here in London, as well as the Ministers involved—were clear that this was the best course of action. Risky as it was, the risks associated with inaction were greater. The procedure therefore involved an authority to proceed, which came from me, but with a final go-ahead based on the details cleared by our embassy in Kabul.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

I thank the Foreign Secretary for his statement about my constituent, Linda Norgrove. He will of course be aware that her parents, John and Lorna, have sought not to apportion blame but to find the truth. From the outset, at a time of great personal difficulty for them, they have publicly expressed their gratitude for the transparency and openness of the Americans, and indeed from UK diplomats as well. They are now greatly involved in continuing Linda’s work, and I wonder whether the wider Foreign Office, and perhaps other Government Departments, could help by highlighting and helping the foundation and its website, lindanorgrovefoundation.org, which was set up by her parents and which aims to continue Linda’s great humanitarian work for women, families and communities in Afghanistan.

[Mr Hague]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. We will all want to support the foundation in different ways, and I particularly drew attention to it in my statement. It is inspiring that Linda’s family have set up this foundation and are conducting this work for the future in memory of her life and work. There will be tremendous respect and enthusiasm for it across the House, and it is something with which the Government want to assist. Linda’s parents have been to the Department for International Development this morning, after their meeting with me, to discuss how DFID might be able to assist with the work of the foundation. We will provide support where we can, in keeping with Government policy and the wishes of the family. The foundation will fund projects to support education and health for Afghan women and children, as I have said, and I think that it will serve as a fitting testimony to Linda Norgrove’s dedication to the people of Afghanistan.

[Mr Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con)]

On international volunteers day, does my right hon. Friend agree that it behoves all of us who are able to sleep soundly in our beds at night to remember that there is an army of volunteers and aid workers around the world who are placing themselves in harm’s way and in grave danger and discomfort in the interests of humanity? Will he assure the House that his Department will do everything in its power to recognise the service and courage of those people, as exemplified by Linda Norgrove, and to ensure that they receive as much help as possible in their work?

[Mr Hague]

Yes, and my hon. Friend’s question forms part of the recognition for which he calls. We often rightly pay tribute in the House to the work of our armed forces and the sacrifices that they make as they try to bring security and stability to Afghanistan, but we must never overlook the work of others, including the many voluntary workers and aid workers who are doing their utmost to give assistance in many different ways. They do so out of their humanity, bringing their expertise and compassion to the people of Afghanistan, and it is absolutely tragic that someone who was simply seeking to do that for the benefit of humanity should have ended up in those tragic circumstances, and the victim of such a tragic death. That is a reminder of the risks that those people run, and of the need to recognise their efforts, as my hon. Friend has suggested.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his decisiveness in making the very difficult decision to authorise this mission. Despite its outcome, that was clearly the right decision to make. May I urge him not to forget the wider context of all this? It is hugely impressive that ISAF managed correctly to identify where Linda was being held within days of her capture, and we came extremely close to liberating her. The actions of the military forces on the ground will act as a huge disincentive to other Taliban groups thinking of trying to do the same thing again.

[Mr Hague]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. He makes an important point. We should recognise that the operation came tantalisingly close to success. Linda Norgrove was located in very difficult terrain, and the troops managed to get very close to her, despite having to fight their way in. Nevertheless, it was a failed mission, because the hostage was killed. We have to be very clear about that, but we must not lose sight of the enormous expertise, skill and bravery that was involved even in getting to that point and enabling us to have any prospect of rescuing a hostage in those circumstances.

Backbench Business

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Commons Chamber

[12th Allotted Day]

Publication of Information about Complaints against Members

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Commons Chamber

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

For the convenience of the House, the three motions on standards and privileges will be debated together.

13:07

[Mr Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

(1) That this House approves the Sixth Report of the Standards and Privileges Committee, Session 2010-11, HC 577; and

(2) That accordingly—

a. The Commissioner may publish papers relating to complaints rectified or not upheld since the beginning of financial year 2008-09 and information about complaints received and matters under investigation since the beginning of financial year 2010-11.

b. Standing Order No. 150 be amended, by inserting the following new paragraph after paragraph 10.

“(10A) The Commissioner shall have leave to publish from time to time—

(a) information and papers relating to—

(i) matters resolved in accordance with paragraph (3) of this order;

and

(ii) complaints not upheld;

and

(b) information about complaints received and matters under investigation.”

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

With this we will consider the following:

Motion on the Power of the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards to Initiate Investigations—

(1) That this House approves the Seventh Report of the Standards and Privileges

Committee, Session 2010-11, HC 578; and

(2) That accordingly Standing Order No. 150 be amended, by leaving out paragraph (2)(e) and inserting in its place:

“(e) to investigate, if he thinks fit, specific matters which have come to his attention relating to the conduct of Members and to report to the Committee on Standards and Privileges or to an appropriate subcommittee thereof, unless the provisions of paragraph (3) apply.

(2A) In determining whether to investigate a specific matter relating to the conduct of a Member the Commissioner shall have regard to whether in his view there is sufficient evidence that the Code of Conduct or the rules relating to registration or declaration of interests may have been breached to justify taking the matter further.”

Motion on the Lay Membership of the Committee on Standards and Privileges—

That this House agrees with the principle as set out in the Twelfth Report from the Committee on Standards in Public Life that lay members should sit on the Committee on Standards and Privileges; and invites the Procedure Committee to bring forward proposals to implement it.

[Relevant document: The Second Report of the Committee on Standards and Privileges, Session 2009-10, implementing the Twelfth Report from the Committee on Standards in Public Life, HC 67.]

[Mr Barron]

I am grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for providing debating time for the three motions relating to the Committee on Standards and Privileges. It is right that they should be debated and I welcome the opportunity to answer any questions that hon. Members might have about them. All three motions relate to unfinished business from the last Parliament and, to that extent, they can be seen as a package. However, each is free-standing and I will speak to them in turn, in the order in which they appear on the Order Paper.

By agreeing to the first motion, the House will bring its publication policy on the complaints handling process into line with best practice. The current regime, which greatly limits what is published, no longer meets legitimate public expectations. Sections of the media have been able to portray the way in which less serious breaches of the rules are rectified as “secret deals”. There has also been inaccurate reporting of who is, and who is not, under inquiry, and what they might be under inquiry for. By enabling the commissioner to publish the information, the House will ensure that it is both accurate and complete. The alternative is to leave us exposed to unfair allegations of cover-ups and to allow the media to continue to set the agenda for us, often on the basis of inaccurate or incomplete information.

Under the new policy, each month the commissioner will publish on his web pages statistical information about the number of complaints and self-referrals he has received, the number he has accepted, and the number he has not accepted. He will not publish the names of Members who have been the subject of complaints that he has not accepted for inquiry or the details of those complaints. To do so would be unfair and would encourage malicious complaints and publicity seekers. To put this into perspective, if the new policy had been in place in 2009-10, no details of the 245 complaints that were not accepted for inquiry would have been published. All that would have been published would have been the information on the 72 complaints that were inquired into.

As for complaints that are accepted, each month the commissioner will list on his web pages inquiries that are under way, including in each case the name of the Member who is subject to the inquiry, with a brief description of the nature of the allegation and an indication of whether the inquiry is active or has for any reason been suspended. Other than in exceptional circumstances, which would have to be approved by the Committee, he will not publish other information about specific inquiries while they are under way. As our report makes clear, the commissioner already confirms or denies to inquirers that a complaint against a named Member is being investigated. The change will introduce consistency into a process that at the moment is random and largely media-driven.

The commissioner will also publish on his web pages his determination letters on specific complaints or allegations that, after inquiry, have either not been upheld or have been rectified as soon as possible after they are produced. He will also publish relevant evidence he has received about such cases. In the Committee’s view, it is in the best interests of the Member concerned and of the House that where evidence of a possible breach has been fully investigated but the allegation has not been upheld or the matter has been rectified with the commissioner’s agreement, both the decision and the reasons for it should be made public.

It is perhaps worth repeating that complainants—some of them politically motivated—have always been free to publicise the outcome of the commissioner’s inquiry into a complaint that is either rectified or not upheld, but at a time and in a manner of their own choosing. That unregulated state of affairs will be replaced by one that is consistent and, I believe, fair and that is under the authority of the House. Publishing the information will help Members to set the record straight publicly and will go some way to redressing the balance.

The motion also proposes that historical information going back to April 2008 should be published. I know that that has caused some concern, but the reason for backdating the information is to make it broadly consistent with other recent decisions of the House to introduce greater transparency. I remind the House that, contrary to what sections of the media have claimed, the commissioner’s determinations are not secret. Much of it is already out there, although often in incomplete form, because complainants have always been free to publicise the outcome of their complaint. By allowing the commissioner to publish his determinations and the relevant evidence, the House will ensure that what is published is both accurate and complete. If the House supports the Committee’s proposal, the commissioner will start to publish information on his web pages later this month.

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

For the record, is my right hon. Friend in a position to tell the House how many of the complaints that the commissioner accepted for investigation resulted in a finding against the Member and how many were dismissed at that stage?

[Mr Barron]

I quoted the figures from the commissioner’s last annual report. During the time of the leaks, The Daily Telegraph and everything else, 245 complaints were never followed up whereas 72 were. My hon. Friend will know that they were not necessarily all upheld, and in such cases the commissioner wants to say that in terms so that there can be no equivocation.

The numbers that are investigated and the number of complaints that are not upheld are sometimes published by the commissioner, as my hon. Friend will know, through the commissioner giving a memorandum to the Committee and the Committee doing its own investigation on that basis and publishing it. All the information has been around in the House in one form or another for many years—since before I became a member of the Committee. I do not have the exact figure for the number of people among the 72 whose cases were followed up who were not found to have done anything wrong. If my hon. Friend is interested, I will try to get that figure from the commissioner, but we must recognise that the commissioner works independently from the Committee, although we have contact with him.

The second motion seeks to implement a recommendation of the Committee on Standards in Public Life—I think we used to call it the Kelly committee—that the commissioner should be able to carry out an inquiry without receiving a complaint. As my Committee’s seventh report points out, that would bring the House’s procedures into line with those of the House of Lords and of the compliance officer. It will also allow the commissioner to investigate a matter that has been reported on by the compliance officer and that raises code of conduct issues. For the first time, it makes proper provision for self-referrals, although they will continue to be subject to the Committee’s agreement.

There is a risk, as the report acknowledges, that giving the commissioner such a responsibility might raise public expectations that each and every allegation will be investigated or that the commissioner will turn into some kind of witchfinder-general. Let me make it clear that that is not going to happen. The Committee does not want it and the commissioner is not asking for it.

The amendment to the Standing Order provides for the commissioner to inquire into

“specific matters which have come to his attention”.

There is also a built-in requirement that there must be sufficient evidence of a possible breach of the code or rules to justify taking the matter further. In the 245 cases in the last annual report there was no evidence and they were not acted on. A lurid newspaper headline or unsubstantiated speculation will not lead to an inquiry. The process must be driven by the evidence and the evidence must come to the commissioner.

It is important, as my Committee’s report recognises, that the commissioner has the resources he needs to do his job. We supported the temporary expansion of his office to deal with the increase in the number of complaints over the past two years and, if necessary, we will do so again. However, there is no expectation that that will happen. The current work load is somewhat smaller than that of 12 months ago.

[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman for missing his opening remarks, but it was his subsequent remarks that I wanted to hear. Will the motion allow right hon. and hon. Members to make self-referrals, which we know the commissioner discourages?

[Mr Barron]

It would do that. Self-referrals would carry on and, indeed, there has been one since the election. However, self-referrals will still have to come in front of the Committee and the commissioner will effectively ask permission, although we do not direct the commissioner by giving permission or telling him not to do things. He works independently of the Committee. Self-referrals will carry on in much the same way as they do at the moment.

Of course we can all help to ensure that the commissioner has the resources to do his job by acting at all times in full compliance with the code of conduct and the associated rules. Members of this House decide what workloads are and whether treatment is fair or unfair by what we do on a regular basis.

The third motion, tabled in the name of members of the Committee on Standards and Privileges, was not on our original shopping list, but we are grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for adding it to today’s business. It relates to a proposal that was put to Sir Christopher Kelly and the Committee on Standards in Public Life by our former Chair, now the Leader of the House, to add lay members to the Standards and Privileges Committee. The proposal was supported by the Kelly committee in its 12th report. Lay members already serve on the Members Estimate Audit Committee and they will soon sit on the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. Lay members provide the public with reassurance that the Committees are not cosy gentlemen’s clubs, where deals are stitched up and scandals are hushed up. They can also bring valuable outside experience and expertise with them. It is common practice for standards bodies dealing with the professions to have lay members, and in the view of the Committee on Standards and Privileges it should be the practice here too. I say that as a now former lay member of the General Medical Council; I spent nearly nine years in that role, sitting with various clinicians.

That said, adding lay members to one of the House’s senior Committees raises some important questions. For example, the Committee on Standards in Public Life recommended that the lay members should have full voting rights on the Standards and Privileges Committee. The question is whether that would mean that the lay members could vote on matters relating to privilege. I assume not. I know that the Clerk of the House has reservations about allowing lay members to vote at all, because he wrote to me about it following the publication of the motion. In practice, of course, we have to recognise that any decision of the Committee that was not supported by the lay members present would lack public credibility. It may be that the lay members will not need to have a formal vote to have a decisive influence.

The Procedure Committee might wish to consider other questions identified in my Committee’s report, such as how many lay members there should be and whether they should form part of the Committee’s quorum. The Kelly committee suggested there should be two lay members, but a case can be made for more than two. I hope that the Procedure Committee will wish to consider that. We also suggested that lay members should receive modest remuneration, directly related to the volume of work that they carry out. We felt strongly that to provide the public with the greatest possible confidence in their appointments, the lay members should be appointed to the Committee but not by the Committee. The Procedure Committee may wish to consider what would be the best way of making the appointments, what qualifications those appointed should have, what should be the term of the appointments, and who should be involved in making them.

My Committee’s understanding until recently was that progress on the issue was being held up by the Government’s work on their recall policy. However, a recent letter from the Leader of the House to Mr Speaker has put us right on that, and the House has now been given the green light to proceed. In the Committee’s view, the best way forward is to ask the Procedure Committee to come up with some workable proposals for putting the matter into practice. It is an important reform and it needs to be got right.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Many of us are very concerned about whether these three proposals will improve the system’s ability to ensure that justice is done for people who are referred to my right hon. Friend’s Committee. We feel strongly that over the past two or three years, the way in which people have been referred to his Committee has been partial. Some have been referred and a report made, leading to a prosecution by the police. Others have never had the opportunity to put their case before the Committee. Will these three changes bring some sense of justice back to what goes on?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Interventions have got to be shorter.

[Mr Barron]

Only one referral of the nature that my hon. Friend sets out has happened in my five years on the Committee, and the matter is out of the Committee’s hands. My understanding is that it happens elsewhere and is not done by the Committee. As I emphasised earlier, there has to be an evidence base for any complaint that is taken up and investigated by the commissioner. The last annual report showed that 245 cases had not been pursued because there was no evidence, but that 72 had been, although some of the Members involved will have been found to have done nothing wrong. I commend the motions to the House.

13:23

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Office of the Leader of the House of Commons (Mr David Heath)]

I am grateful, as I am sure the House is, to the Standards and Privileges Committee for its work in the last Parliament, to the Committee on Standards in Public Life, and to the current Chair and members of the Standards and Privileges Committee who have tabled the motions. I am grateful also to the Backbench Business Committee for providing this time today. These are the first substantive motions that have arisen from a Select Committee report to be considered on a Back-Bench day, and the Government are frankly delighted that the House can now make progress on House matters without first requiring a ministerial seal of approval. Should the motions be agreed to, they will prove that Parliament no longer needs to look to Government for help in putting its house in order, but has the independence, power and political will to do so of its own volition.

The Government fully support the three motions in the name of the right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron). On the publication of information about complaints against Members, the failure to publish details of rectification has clearly led to some negative stories that have tarnished the House’s reputation. The lesson from the last Parliament is that openness is the only way to allay public unease and suspicion. The process of rectification is typically used when the commissioner is satisfied that the Member concerned has made an entirely honest mistake, acknowledged the mistake, apologised and repaid any money that was wrongly claimed. Publishing the information will briefly embarrass the Member concerned, but withholding it would be damaging for the whole House in the longer term.

I wish to make one point for the record that I hope the commissioner will bear in mind. As those who have been under investigation can testify, the knowledge that a Member is under investigation can itself damage their reputation. That can be exacerbated by the length of time that an inquiry can take—sometimes well over six months. That results in some people concluding that if it is taking that long, something must be up. To mitigate the problem, it would be sensible for the commissioner to be equally open about the process of investigation, for example by providing details of when it began and where the Member has reached in the queue for investigation. That would go some way to ensuring that while we create a more transparent approach, Members are not subjected to open season by political opponents.

[Mr Sheerman]

May I renew my plea that, after the reforms come in, we must not have a situation such as in the past, when some people have seemed to get a full investigation and some have been referred to the police? All of us who were in the House remember the cases of Ian Gibson and others whom we believed were not given real justice, either by the Standards and Privileges Committee or in what happened to them subsequently. Has anybody trawled back through what happened to those people, and assessed which parts were correct procedure and which were not?

[Mr Heath]

The hon. Gentleman has already intervened on the Chair of the Standards and Privileges Committee on that point, and I really do not think it is a matter for Government. It is most important that it should not be. We must have a process that is just to all concerned, but equally rigorous for all concerned. When there have been instances in which Members have sadly fallen far short of what is required not just by the rules of the House but by the rules that apply to any other citizen in the United Kingdom, it is right that investigations should take place elsewhere.

[Mr Sheerman]

I am not asking the Government to do anything; I am merely asking that we all reflect on the fact that those of us who were in the House before the election know that some cases were taken up and others, which we thought were even worse, were not taken up. That is the point—justice was not done on an even basis. If the three motions today will set that right, I will be happy with them. If they do not do that, I will be very unhappy.

[Mr Heath]

I do not think that I can add anything to what I have already said. This is a matter for the Standards and Privileges Committee and for the commissioner, and certainly not a matter for a Minister at the Dispatch Box to comment on, other than to say that I hope that justice will always be done in the most transparent way.

[Mr Barron]

I have two points to make in response to my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman). First, I do not believe that Ian Gibson ever went to the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards or in front of the Committee. Secondly, on a wider matter, discussions are currently taking place between the compliance officer, the commissioner and others on a memorandum of understanding about referrals, and whether cases will go to different organisations rather than to the commissioner and then on to the Committee.

[Mr Heath]

That is a very helpful intervention, and of course the landscape has changed since a year or so ago. We now have the compliance officer in the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, who is responsible for investigating some matters. Having that memorandum of understanding seems to me a very positive way forward.

I mentioned the time that investigations sometimes take and the adverse effect that that may have on a Member’s reputation. As I said, it would be sensible for the commissioner to be open about the process of an investigation, such as when it began and where a Member had reached in the queue, to ensure that we have a more transparent approach. It is also important that Members know at the first opportunity that a matter relating to them is under investigation. It should never be the case that a Member hears that from the press or from a political opponent.

The Government support the move to give the commissioner a power to initiate investigations, which, to an extent, ties up a process started by the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009. Without that power, the commissioner would not be able to act on referrals from the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority compliance office. That would clearly be unsatisfactory, because the House would not be able to take action against a Member who had knowingly submitted an improper expenses claim. However, this issue goes wider than that; it is absurd that allegations about a Member’s conduct can be splashed all over the newspapers, yet the commissioner is powerless to investigate unless he receives a complaint from a member of the general public. That is an unnecessary hurdle. If we can trust the commissioner to use his good judgment to carry out investigations, we can trust him to decide when to initiate them.

Finally, the Government support the principle, first advocated by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House, that the Standards and Privileges Committee should be strengthened by the presence of lay members. Although that is ultimately a matter for the House, the Government take an interest, given the commitment in the coalition agreement to establish a right to recall Members who have been found guilty of serious wrongdoing. There is obviously a potential role for that Committee in the process of adjudication on recall cases, and the presence of members from outside Parliament will help to build people’s confidence in our system of internal compliance. In supporting that, we note the concerns expressed by the Clerk of the House, to which the Chairman of the Committee referred, that if lay members are given full voting rights, they might not enjoy the protection of privilege or their presence might compromise the Committee’s position based on privilege in respect of judicial review. The Procedure Committee will want to look particularly closely at that, while the Government will be taking a close interest as part of the ongoing work on the draft parliamentary privilege Bill.

[Mr Jenkin]

I am very grateful that my hon. Friend has addressed the question of privilege and lay members, and I am grateful for the Government’s measured and sensible response to this approach. However, does it not begin to advance the argument in favour of having a standards committee that is separate from a privileges committee? If there really are two functions that require lay members to be involved in one function and not the other, should we not have two separate committees, permanently? I shall discuss that in my remarks later.

[Mr Heath]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very important point, and that is another matter that the Procedure Committee needs to examine carefully. I hope that it will take full account of the recommendations that the Standards and Privileges Committee has already made on this subject, particularly on the separation of standards cases, where lay members will have a role to play, and privilege cases, which should rightly remain the exclusive business of the House. The Procedure Committee will wish to examine whether that requires two committees or the Standards and Privileges Committee meeting in a different form, with different arrangements for the two classes of consideration.

The Chairman of the Standards and Privileges Committee makes the important point that lay members would not necessarily require full voting rights, as long as it clearly states in the Committee’s reports whether the lay members supported the conclusions and recommendations of the rest of the Committee. That imprimatur is the important aspect in determining whether the Committee’s response not only has credibility, but is seen to have credibility by all those who are interested in the matter.

[Mr Sheerman]

Is the hon. Gentleman absolutely sure about all this? This is a very important point, because in his earlier remarks he said that the Government should not be involved, but he subsequently said that the recall element meant that they should be involved. The recall element is very important. Can a Member be recalled only when they have been through the Committee and been found wanting? What about Members of this House who were prosecuted, never having had the opportunity to go through—

[Mr Barron]

indicated dissent.

[Mr Sheerman]

My right hon. Friend is shaking his head, but people were prosecuted, and people are being prosecuted, without having gone through the Standards and Privileges Committee process; they were just taken down to the police station and charged. Where is the equality there? Do we have recall in both Houses or both—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. We have to be very careful that we do not get into matters that are sub judice. I know that the hon. Gentleman was careful in what he said, but we are drifting into an area that we need to keep away from.

[Mr Heath]

I shall be equally careful not to enter that area, Mr Deputy Speaker. We have yet to introduce our proposals on the powers of recall; those will be in future legislation. Obviously this matter will be under consideration when we draw up the proposals for that Bill. Clearly, there is the potential for a trigger to reside with the consideration of the Standards and Privileges Committee or in a court decision. The House will have to determine that in due course. We also hope to introduce a Bill on the matter of privilege. Again, we will have to take great care to understand the points made by hon. Members in this debate and in others, and the response of the House in its decisions. We will have to ensure that we have covered, as far as is possible, any points raised on the matter of the draft legislation on privileges, which we anticipate introducing at a later stage.

[Mr Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)]

Will the Minister give an assurance on the Floor of the House today that, whatever the Government come up with on the recall of Members of the House of Commons, there will be a parallel process for those from the other House who offend? Clearly they cannot be recalled, because they are appointed through a process of patronage rather than elected by the public. Can he assure us that they will also be held to account, in a way that they palpably have not been on their expenses scandals, which I suspect are still at a relatively early stage?

[Mr Heath]

The hon. Gentleman raises an extremely important point. Again, I do not want to pre-empt draft legislation that has not yet been put before the House and is under consideration. As he knows, an all-party body is considering the matter of House of Lords reform, but I believe that I can, without betraying any confidences, say that it is very much in our thoughts that there has to be a process of recall for both Houses of Parliament, and for other senior elected offices, which is broadly compatible. What we should not have is a different regime in different circumstances where wholly different considerations apply. If the public are to have a power of recall, it must be applicable to senior decision-making positions in elected office across the piece. I believe that that would include the upper House but, as I say, it is not for me to pre-empt the draft Bill that I hope will be before the House early next year.

[Mr Sheerman]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. How can we make a decision about this important aspect today, given that the Minister has just told us that the Government have not even decided what they are going to do about recall, or whether recall can be sparked off through the Standards and Privileges Committee or through a criminal case? What sort of rule is this?

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

In fairness, the hon. Gentleman has raised a point, but it is not a point of order and the House is debating the issue .

[Mr Heath]

There is nothing about recall in the motions put before us by the right hon. Member for Rother Valley—

[Mr Sheerman]

You brought it up.

[Mr Heath]

I responded to a point raised in debate. I am attempting to help the right hon. Member for Rother Valley and his Committee put matters before the House and indicate that the Government support his view. I am very happy to rest my position on that point.

[Mr Sheerman]

Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I think that, unintentionally, the Minister is misleading the House because—

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Order. I think that the hon. Gentleman needs to withdraw that remark.

[Mr Sheerman]

Mr Deputy Speaker, I said—

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Order. I am not having the hon. Gentleman say that the House is being misled.

[Mr Sheerman]

Mr Deputy Speaker, I said “misleading” but the Minister did not mean to mislead the House. However, he did say that he was responding to an intervention—he was not; he mentioned the recall problem during part of his speech.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

That is not a point of order, but the hon. Gentleman has certainly got on the record the point that he wanted to make.

[Mr Heath]

Actually, I think the matter was referred to by the Chairman of the Standards and Privileges Committee.

[Mr Barron]

What I said in my speech was that we thought that the question of lay members serving on the Standards and Privileges Committee was being held up because of the likelihood of a recall Bill. The reason the motion is on the Order Paper today is that it is about having lay members on the Committee—certainly in respect of standards—so that people can have more confidence that the Committee is not about gentlemen or gentlewomen looking after other gentlemen and gentlewomen.

[Mr Heath]

I thank the Chairman of the Standards and Privileges Committee for making that clear. We have had enough of this House appearing to be a cosy club for its own benefit. The previous Parliament took steps towards improving the situation. What we are debating today is a continuation of that process, and I commend it to the House.

13:40

[Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)]

Let me begin, as the Deputy Leader of the House did, by thanking my right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron) and his Committee, as well as its predecessor Committee, for the considerable amount of work they have done on these issues. They are difficult issues for the House to grapple with, and we want to get the detail right. That view is widely shared across the House. It is good that we are debating these motions today, because hon. Members can be reassured about any issues that they want to raise.

We on the Opposition Front Bench support all the motions. We believe that greater transparency will help the House in future and alleviate any fears that the public might have about our being a cosy little club. That is important in increasing public confidence in the procedures of the House, and it will also be to the long-term benefit of hon. Members. However, I have one or two queries that I want to put to my right hon. Friend that I hope he will be able to deal with when he winds up.

The first motion would allow the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards to publish papers relating to complaints that have either not been upheld or been dealt with through the rectification process. My right hon. Friend is quite right that the current practice—whereby the commissioner publishes details on the number and type of complaints received in his annual report, along with details of outcomes—does not give sufficient information to the public. His Committee has pointed out that the commissioner responds if he is asked whether a complaint about a particular individual has been received. The Committee has given good reasons for the change that it proposes today. However, I would be grateful if my right hon. Friend elaborated a little on why it decided to introduce an element of retrospection. He said that the proposal would bring the complaints procedure into line with practices that have been adopted elsewhere in the House. However, I am sure that he would agree that this raises the possibility of complaints that have long been dealt with being reopened, through the media and other means, and often where Members have left the House. I hope that when he sums up this debate he will elaborate on exactly how his Committee considered that point, and on why it came down on the side that it did.

There is also an issue, which I am sure my right hon. Friend will recognise, about publishing evidence on complaints that have not been upheld. He was right to say that on many occasions that will assist hon. Members, by showing that the complaint against them was completely unfounded. However, there is also a risk that the whole affair will be reopened. I wonder whether he could elaborate on what kind of evidence the commissioner will publish on such occasions, and on how he will decide what should be published and what should not.

For those under investigation, the need for transparency has to be balanced with their right to a fair consideration of the complaint against them, as it would be in any walk of life. The House is no different in that respect from anywhere else. However, the reputational damage that can be caused to a Member, even where a complaint is not upheld, is considerable. Given that the commissioner has always recognised that a Member’s reputation should not be risked without proper cause, and given that he has also noted that there is a spike in complaints in the run-up to a general election, will my right hon. Friend say what consideration his Committee gave to that question? Could the Committee and the commissioner together develop a code of practice on what can be published in the run-up to a general election, so as to avoid a huge rise in politically motivated complaints that are not upheld, but made purely so that someone’s opponent can issue newsletters saying, “MP X is under investigation by the Standards and Privileges Committee”?

[Mr Sheerman]

My hon. Friend is a highly trained lawyer, but, for those who are worried about the proposal, let me say that we believe in transparency—we campaigned for a better system—but we also want that balance, with justice for all Members, so that they are treated in a fair and democratic way.

[Helen Jones]

I am a lawyer, but I am not sure that I am a highly trained one—I am certainly a very out-of-practice one. I recognise that my hon. Friend has a long record on campaigning for more transparency, but there is always a balance to be struck between the need for fairness to those under investigation and the need for transparency. We all recognise that it is not necessarily easy to draw the line. The Committee has done an excellent job in trying to make proposals that achieve the right balance, but it is not always easy. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley will consider that point about the run-up to a general election, which is a consideration for Members in all parts of the House.

The second motion would give the commissioner the power to initiate an investigation. That sensible move might increase the access to justice that my hon. Friend the Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) mentioned, because it would allow the commissioner to look at things that are perhaps aired in public, but not necessarily referred to him. I know, too, that there has been some concern among hon. Members about allowing the commissioner to act pursuant to a finding by the compliance officer of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. That is not because hon. Members do not want there to be a compliance officer; it is because there is some concern about the procedures adopted by IPSA. However, I understand—I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley will confirm it—that it will still be for the commissioner to decide whether there is a case to answer, according to the same standards that he applies now, when he considers whether the rules of the House have been breached. I hope that that provides some reassurance to hon. Members.

The final motion will probably present us with the most difficulties. We are being asked to agree in principle to two lay members being appointed to the Standards and Privileges Committee. We support that move, but there is no doubt that if the House agrees the motion, there will still be a lot of work to be done. The Committee on Standards in Public Life said that lay members should be chosen through what it called

“the official public appointments process”.

Much as we love the Committee on Standards in Public Life, and much as we acknowledge that its knowledge of the rules of the House is deep and abiding, the problem is that none of us knows exactly what the official public appointments process is, because it differs according to which organisation one is dealing with. Therefore, we will first need the Procedure Committee to look at appointments. However, I hope that we do not get another round of the same, small coterie of the great and the good being appointed. There is a quangocracy out there, and I personally would like members of the public who have not previously been involved to be appointed.

[Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con)]

What is certain about the recruitment process is that we will have head-hunting firms earning a lot of commission from the taxpayer. That is causing a number of people in this place a great deal of concern.

[Helen Jones]

The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point. When the Procedure Committee looks at the issue, I hope that we will be able to avoid that. With great respect to all the ladies and gentlemen who serve on many committees, I do not want to see the usual suspects. I would like to see people who have not been involved before and who bring an entirely different perspective.

[Mr Jenkin]

The third motion concerns by far the most contentious matter before the House this afternoon. As Chairman of the Public Administration Committee, which is responsible for the public appointments commissioner, I can attest to the fact that what the hon. Lady is saying is absolutely correct. I do not think that Whitehall is the model of how to make public appointments, and in any case there comes a point where, even if we are bringing lay members into House, it should be this House that appoints them, not necessarily ex-civil servants who do not understand how the House works.

[Helen Jones]

The hon. Gentleman makes a very fair point and he brings a lot of expertise from the Public Administration Committee. Having battled for many years to get more people from the most health-deprived or socially deprived areas of my constituency appointed to health trusts and as magistrates, I have great sympathy for the points he makes. I hope that the Procedure Committee will take those remarks on board and consider different ways of finding lay members to assist the House.

[Mr Sheerman]

Many of us on the Back Benches could be persuaded of the value of lay members, but the House is a strange place with a strange culture, so local knowledge is needed. Anyone who believed that what had happened to Members in the past 18 months or two years did not depend on the Whips and party leadership would have to think again.

[Helen Jones]

As a former Whip, I would have to say that the Whips always act in the best interests of those whom they serve and that they are known for their understanding, kindness and gentleness. However, my hon. Friend makes a fair point. Whoever is appointed will need induction into the rules and procedures of the House, just as Members need that induction when we first arrive here. The Procedure Committee could consider that.

One issue to consider is whether the lay members would have voting rights. My right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley made a fair point when he said that any decision that was not supported by the lay members would not be trusted by the public. Previously, his Committee has assumed that those voting rights would be confined to issues of standards and not to privileges. Perhaps we should consider splitting the Committee in dealing with those very different issues.

Another possible problem has been pointed out by the Clerk: lay members might not be covered by privilege when they take part in a Committee investigation. If that is the case, the House will face the difficult decision of whether to extend qualified privilege to non-Members. That would have huge implications for the future business of the House and would have to be considered very carefully by the Procedure Committee, who are the right people to do so. I have absolute faith that the Committee would consider the issue in detail, but I suspect that the inquiry would be long and comprehensive. The Committee already has a number of issues to deal with, so we are giving it a great deal more work, but it is most fitted to undertaking that work. These are matters for the House. I know that hon. Members want to be satisfied on a number of issues before we vote on them, and I hope that my right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley will respond to some of those issues when he sums up. We commend the motions to the House.

13:53

[Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)]

One of these three issues—ensuring that resources are available to the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards—is vital. It is a tragedy and a disgrace to the House that we did not do this when Elizabeth Filkin was the commissioner. There is not enough time to go back over all that now, but the House does not have a very good or consistent record.

The question of whether lay members will have privilege should not be too difficult. Presumably, we extend privilege to the commissioner, so we ought to be able to extend it in the same way. I do not have a view on whether we should go for a sub-committee of Members only to deal with privilege issues. I shall not argue against the proposal on lay members, but I note that the provision that they cannot have been a Member of Parliament before would exclude someone such as Martin Bell who would be eminently qualified to be a lay member, but that might be the rough justice we will have. I suspect that if there were lay members, we could avoid hon. Members having the dilemma that he and I faced when we were members of the Privileges and Standards Committee and agreed, in one or two cases that we considered, to use the criminal burden of proof rather than the balance of probabilities. I think that we made a mistake; I think he acknowledged that in a book and I am perfectly willing to say now that we did make a mistake. Again, however, the reasons behind that are not for discussion today.

Paragraph 25 of the Privileges and Standards Committee’s HC 67 report says that the Committee had “read with some concern” the suggestion of the Committee on Standards in Public Life that

“MPs should be required to register positions of responsibility in voluntary or charitable organisations, even if unpaid, together with an indication of the amount of time spent on them.”

Bluntly, I would ask that Committee why not spend more time looking at what MPs do in our job rather than what we do with our spare time? In my time at Parliament, I have been a trustee of Christian Aid, chairman of the Church of England Children’s Society, a member of the council of Mind—previously the national association for mental health—and a member of the council of Nacro. I have also been involved with other, less nationally prominent, organisations. I do not think that I would have accepted the invitations to take those positions if I had thought that I would have to log the amount of time I spent going to and at meetings, and I doubt whether I would have taken on the position of being parliamentary warden of St Margaret’s at Westminster. There is a whole range of issues on which that Committee ought to wake up, and if it wants to take advice from me publicly or privately I shall offer it.

[Mr Jenkin]

Is not the corollary of that recommendation that an MP who went on a holiday to learn how to paint watercolours would have to fill in a form and register it because that would be time spent not as an MP but doing an unpaid extracurricular activity? Why not register everything we do not do for Parliament in our spare time?

[Peter Bottomley]

I think my hon. Friend makes the point that if we registered what we did not do we would probably have a longer list than if we registered what we did do. The key point is that the general aim of having transparency matters.

The first of the motions introduced by the right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron) concerns publication. During my time in Parliament, there have been two or three cases in which I have been rather proud of my approach to them and the persistence I maintained. However, two of them ended up with accusations being made against me of being a paedophile, one of which was swallowed by a national newspaper, which published in 2 million copies a case against me. If a Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards took media attention as a basis for starting an investigation, I would object. As it happened, in that case, no other newspaper copied the allegation, and the first settled, at pretty heavy expense to it, and made a damages payment. I wish those events had not happened, but the case involved people whom I had upset. They were bad, mad or sad; I was bold and pretty decisive, and there ended up being a series of allegations against me.

In a second case, a constituent whom I had helped complained to the commissioner that I had taken obscene photographs of his children. The commissioner found that there was no case to look into, but if that person had gone to the papers and they had run the story as they normally would, under the current arrangements the commissioner would have had to look into it. We have to be aware of such dangers. We cannot legislate against all possibilities, but we have to be careful about saying that just because there has been media attention, the commissioner should get involved.

[Mr Charles Walker]

I hope that the person who made that allegation was investigated by the police and faced the full force of the law, because that is outrageous.

[Peter Bottomley]

That may be, but the issue is that it was done and that the people who do such things are not always thinking straight. That is not my problem. The issue is that the commissioner should be very careful about taking the decibels as a reason for launching an investigation.

13:58

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

First, I hope that the Deputy Leader of the House and the Leader of the House, both of whom have a deserved reputation for courtesy, made a big mistake when they tried to take these matters through without debate. The very fact that we have had this debate is evidence that it is important to take such matters on the Floor of the House. I hope that that point will be taken on board by the business managers who allocate time on the Floor of the House.

These important matters reflect on and affect the public view of us individually and collectively as Members of Parliament. I was grateful to the hon. Member for Worthing West (Peter Bottomley) for his remarks. The examples he gave indicated the serious problems that Members can face when people, for whatever reasons, bring charges against them that leave those Members—owing to the nature of their public role—at least with difficulties defending themselves. It is important that our procedures reflect the gravity of that situation.

I want to make a few points for my right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron) to take back to his Committee, about whose reports the House needs reassurance—although I am not saying that they represent the wrong direction of travel. We need reassurance that there is recognition of the important implications of the new procedures. My first point relates to the commissioner now putting it into the public domain when Members are under investigation. That may or may not be the right thing to do, but we should recognise that it will increase enormously the pressure on those Members. In practice, that is not necessarily in line with procedures used by other investigatory authorities. However, given that the commissioner has adopted the practice of responding to freedom of information requests, it might be better for Members if all such incidents were in the public domain.

My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) made a serious point: this procedure could be used, in the run-up to an election, in a deliberate attempt to sully the reputation of Members of Parliament seeking re-election. We have to guard against that. I hope that the Committee and the commissioner will reflect on today’s exchange and consider whether a code of practice can be devised to prevent those who go beyond the bar of frivolity and necessitate an investigation from being able to use that procedure to sully a Member’s reputation in a pre-election period. This is not a trivial matter; it matters to people standing for election who might later find themselves exonerated by the commissioner.

That is why I asked my right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley whether he could give us the number of people who, having been investigated by the commissioner, were found not guilty. It is important that that information is in the public domain, because it gives us the context and allows us to recognise whether this is a serious problem of which we need to be aware, or whether it is simply in the realms of the theoretical. As he said, some 240 cases were dismissed for having insufficient evidence. Quite rightly, of course, those did not enter the public domain, because the commissioner ruled them inadmissible for investigation. However, it is unlikely that all the 72 cases taken forward will be found to warrant action by the commissioner or the Committee. This issue matters. It is important that we get the balance right and that the commissioner reflects on the need to give consideration to that pre-election period and the capacity for people to use this procedure not only frivolously, but with a political purpose.

I want to make a second point to my right hon. Friend. If the commissioner is now to be given the power to initiate investigations—I understand the arguments for why it should be given—it will be critical to be cognisant of the need to prevent either the present commissioner or future commissioners from simply engaging in what in the past have been described as fishing expeditions. Again, this matters, and it is important that the House has reassurance. My right hon. Friend’s Committee has an important role in ensuring that when the commissioner reports to it, it engages in a reasonably robust dialogue with him on the relevance of such commissioner-led investigations, to ensure that the commissioner sets a proper test or standard before taking on such a role.

My final point relates to lay members. I have considerable sympathy with the point made by the Chairman of the Public Administration Committee, the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin), about the need to recognise the distinction between standards and privilege. It is important that we know in what role and capacity the lay members will be appointed. I endorse the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North that we need to ensure that we do not simply replicate the appointment to these public roles of people from traditional backgrounds. We need to ensure that the establishment is not once again put in a position to do things that are not only not in the interest of the House, but not in the interest of the wider public. We must ensure that we have a robust Parliament and MPs who can operate robustly when considering matters of standards and privileges.

14:05

[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

I agree with the point made by the hon. Member for Manchester Central (Tony Lloyd) about how we choose the lay members. The House has fallen into the habit of finding people seen to be more respectable than we are in order to resolve some of the difficulties that have arisen. Inevitably, they turn out to be former permanent secretaries, but with the greatest respect to those eminent people, they are seen as more respectable only because they have not been exposed in public life to the extent that many of us in public life have been.

[Helen Jones]

Continuing the debate about who should be appointed, does the hon. Gentleman agree that one of the problems we have encountered—we will see this in the debate later on the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority—is that civil servants tend to want to fit everyone else into the civil service mode, and often do not understand the work of a Member of Parliament?

[Mr Jenkin]

I wholly agree with that point, and it fits with the one I am trying to make, which is that their perspective is necessarily a different one, owing to civil servants’ long and distinguished experience. Very often—it has to be said—Parliament will have been, throughout their careers, perhaps a matter of great frustration to them, and they might well share the feeling of many others about how poorly the House has done its jobs in various ways over the years. I do not think, therefore, that they necessarily have the right perspective—they have one perspective, but it cannot be solely the right perspective. We have to take their recommendations gratefully and humbly, but add a wider perspective to them to give them life.

On the question of adding lay members to a Select Committee, the right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron), who moved the motion, gave examples of where lay members have been added to other committees. However, those are not parliamentary committees and are not, for example, subject to the question of privilege, and it is on parliamentary privilege that I wish to make three brief points. First, there are members of the judiciary and senior figures in public life who have served elsewhere in public life who are either careless of the question of parliamentary privilege or actually could not care less about parliamentary privilege.

The word “privilege” carries certain overtones. At one stage before the election, it went out to the Conservative party that we should not use that word, because it would be misunderstood and seem to relate to the then Leader of the Opposition’s education. In fact, every Parliament in the world of any distinction enjoys some measure of privilege or immunity in order that those Members can do their job. The reason we had the Bill of Rights in 1689 was to enable the House to function, and we still need those privileges, that protection and those immunities. We hold those immunities not for ourselves and the protection of our own persons or private interests, and not to protect us from the criminal law if we commit criminal offences—as we have just discovered in a recent case—but so that we can advance the interests of the country freely and without fear or favour. These are the people’s privileges. I urge the Procedure Committee, as it considers this matter, to accept the advice of the Clerk of the House. Let me, for the second day on the trot, quote from a note from the Clerk. Referring to the role of lay members on the Committee, he made it clear that he did not comment on the merits of the proposal itself, which I personally welcome, but he also said:

“It is not clear to me that their participation in decision-making by voting is in fact covered by parliamentary privilege. At the very least the matter is questionable and therefore may be justiciable.”

Until that matter has been comprehensively and categorically resolved, it would be sensible for the Procedure Committee to recommend that if the Standards and Privileges Committee is to have lay members, they should not be voting members.

I imagine that it would be extremely hard for the Standards and Privileges Committee to ignore the advice of the lay members, particularly if they are as eminent as I hope they will be. I very much hope that one of them will be a retired judge, for example. I think that it would greatly assist the functioning of the Committee to receive more legal advice, so that it could interpret the byzantine rules and regulations and be navigated through difficult, contentious issues of evidence and fairness. After all, that is what the Committee is about. It would be very difficult to ignore the advice of a retired judge, whether he had a vote or not.

Secondly, I should be interested to know how often votes take place on the Committee. Never? I see a shaking head.

[Peter Bottomley]

Not never, but not frequently.

[Mr Jenkin]

My hon. Friend says “Not never, but not frequently”, and I observed the right hon. Member for Rother Valley shaking his head.

It would be awful if decisions were split on some of the contentious cases that we are discussing. The voting is not really relevant, and I think that it can be set aside until the question of the privileges of the House has been resolved.

We keep running up against the question of privilege. The arrest of my hon. Friend the Member for Ashford (Damian Green) led to a protracted argument about it. The case relating to privilege has just been resolved—I recognise that other cases are sub judice under the criminal law, so I will not comment on them—but resolving it took months. If we had had a more watchful Privileges Committee entirely devoted to the question, we could have forestalled all that. More to the point, if we got on with the parliamentary privileges Bill that everyone agrees we need, we could put the question of privileges on a much less contentious and disputed footing.

That is my third point. When will we have a parliamentary privileges Bill, so that we can resolve some of these issues? Australia has enacted such a Bill, as have other Commonwealth countries. It is time that we stopped resting on the 1689 Act, which is increasingly irrelevant in this information age whose media are so different from those of the past. Parliamentary privilege has to contend with many issues that were not conceived in those days. It is time we updated the Bill of Rights with a parliamentary privileges Act, and I hope that the Procedure Committee will consider that.

I also think that we should have a Select Committee on parliamentary privilege, separate from the Standards and Privileges Committee. As soon as a big issue arises, what happens? Following the arrest of my hon. Friend, it was immediately agreed—somewhat insultingly—that the existing Committee was not up to the job, and that much grander and more important panjandrums would have to be placed on a separate Committee to consider the issue of privileges. I think we had better recognise that the two functions are different. The fact that lay members will be involved with one aspect of the work of the Standards and Privileges Committee and not the other underlines the fact that there are two separate functions, and that they should be undertaken by two separate Committees. I very much hope that that will be one of the Procedure Committee’s recommendations.

14:14

[Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con)]

As I am a member of the Committee, I thought it sensible to sit through the debate and hear all the views that have been expressed. I am a new Member, and I am not used to hearing about issues such as byzantine rules and regulations. We need T-shirts with that written on them, do we not?

The work that we have been doing over the past few weeks has built on the Kelly report, which I find fascinating. I am very pleased that the House is dealing with these three motions. We have received indications from both Front Benches that there is complete agreement with them. The Chairman of the Committee, the right hon. Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron), made an excellent opening speech broadening the issues with which we have all been dealing in the Committee, and I am sure that he will discuss the comments that have been made when he winds up the debate.

I have found it difficult to deal with the cases that have come before the Committee and the complaints that we have been considering. We have taken advantage of the experience of the commissioner, who is upstairs in the Gallery—I am noting his beady eyes every second—and the work is very interesting, but what is most important is that the public are aware of the complaints that are received, the statistics about complaints that have absolutely no validity, and the decisions made by our Committee. It is also important that the House is confident that the Committee deals with complaints properly—and we do try.

14:16

[Mr Barron]

The hon. Member for Worthing West (Peter Bottomley) spoke of media headlines serving as reasons for investigation. That is not the case now, and it will not be the case in future. Investigations are not made on the basis of media headlines; they are made when the commissioner is provided with evidence and he or she is satisfied that there are grounds for examining, for instance, a potential breach of the code of conduct.

My hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) discussed rectification, which involves two issues. Rectification sometimes takes place on the basis that the individual concerned has been found to have done no wrong, but, as I explained, it does not always take place in a right and proper way. It may take place in a very ill-informed way, and a complainant who has done no wrong can still go to the media and say “Yes, but…”. I think it eminently sensible to improve that process of rectification.

When people have done wrong and have admitted doing wrong, rectification has been the right and proper thing to do from the commissioner’s point of view. It is his decision and no one else’s to take the matter no further. Money is paid back, and matters are settled. However, the information is not published in a right and proper way at the moment. We need more transparency, so that people can understand exactly what is happening. I entirely accept that that involves the question of retrospection. We are trying to put the last 18 months behind us, and, as I said, in that context I think that retrospection is right and proper. I hope that the House will accept it on that ground.

I think it highly unlikely that there will be further complaints on the basis of these publications. Even if there were, evidence beyond that which had enabled the commissioner to reach the point at which he had arrived would presumably be required for any investigation to take place. I do not believe that cases that have been rectified will be reopened, whether they have been upheld or not.

My hon. Friend also mentioned a spike in major complaints just before a general election. Political opponents often make complaints. That is a judgment to be taken not by the House or the Committee, but by the commissioner, who I hope would use common sense in those circumstances. I say that because it would be wrong—I am only one voice, but I chair the Committee—for us to define a code of conduct for the commissioner. The commissioner is independent of the Committee and must remain so. We cannot have a situation where someone investigates complaints against MPs, but works to a code of conduct written by a Committee of MPs.

[Tony Lloyd]

It would not necessarily be my right hon. Friend’s Committee that created the code of conduct. The commissioner could operate his own code of conduct. That might give the House the reassurance that it needs.

[Mr Barron]

That is entirely a matter for the commissioner. From what was said earlier, I gather that he is with us not just in spirit for the debate. I am sure he will read the report in Hansard tomorrow. The Committee should not be a party to drawing up a code of conduct for somebody who works independently of the Committee. That would be wholly wrong.

On the subject of lay members, we have said that that will be a matter for the Procedure Committee, and I hope the House will agree. I mentioned that I had been a lay member of the General Medical Council. The Procedure Committee may want to know something about my journey to that role. The first time I was appointed to it, I was the Labour appointee. There was also a Liberal Democrat and a Conservative appointee. They were appointed by the Leader of the House.

That is what used to happen under the old system. The GMC was a big body, consisting of 124 members and three MPs, one from each major party. The second time that I served as a lay member on it, I had to attend an appointments session up in Leeds. I was appointed by a panel who asked me questions about what I had to bring to the table.

I say to the hon. Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) that I would hesitate to suggest to the Procedure Committee that it ought to have some form of permanent secretary. I had worked in industry as an electrician. I had been to see doctors, of course, because everyone gets ill from time to time. I used to sit on fitness to practice committees when a doctor had done wrong. Those were national cases. I was not qualified to take on the medical profession. I was there in a different role. My role was to bring to the committee what I thought ordinary people would think about the situation—to bring common sense to the issue.

That is what we ought to ask of the Procedure Committee. How it achieves that is entirely up to the Committee. I hesitate to go down the route suggested and lay any sort of guidelines whatever. If lay members come on to the Committee on Standards and Privileges, as I hope they will at some stage, it will be up to the Committee to decide whether they have anything to do with privilege. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that as soon as we get a privilege Bill, or a draft privilege Bill, as we are promised, we can see what that means. There has been a ruling of the Supreme Court on these matters in the past 24 hours. We should look at that in the context of what has come to light in the past few months. The Procedure Committee should get on with the job, if the House agrees to the motion.

I hope the House will accept all three motions without Division. As I said, they serve to clear up issues from before the general election and make sure that the workings of the House are as transparent as is humanly possible, so that people outside have more confidence in us than they have had in the recent past.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

(1) That this House approves the Sixth Report of the Standards and Privileges Committee, Session 2010-11, HC 577; and

(2) That accordingly—

a. The Commissioner may publish papers relating to complaints rectified or not upheld since the beginning of financial year 2008-09 and information about complaints received and matters under investigation since the beginning of financial year 2010-11.

b. Standing Order No. 150 be amended, by inserting the following new paragraph after paragraph 10.

“(10A) The Commissioner shall have leave to publish from time to time—

(a) information and papers relating to—

(i) matters resolved in accordance with paragraph (3) of this order;

and

(ii) complaints not upheld;

and

(b) information about complaints received and matters under investigation.”

power of the parliamentary commissioner for standards to initiate investigations

Resolved,

(1) That this House approves the Seventh Report of the Standards and Privileges Committee, Session 2010-11, HC 578; and

(2) That accordingly Standing Order No. 150 be amended, by leaving out paragraph (2)(e) and inserting in its place:

“(e) to investigate, if he thinks fit, specific matters which have come to his attention relating to the conduct of Members and to report to the Committee on Standards and Privileges or to an appropriate subcommittee thereof, unless the provisions of paragraph (3) apply.

(2A) In determining whether to investigate a specific matter relating to the conduct of a Member the Commissioner shall have regard to whether in his view there is sufficient evidence that the Code of Conduct or the rules relating to registration or declaration of interests may have been breached to justify taking the matter further.”—(Mr Barron.)

lay membership of the committee on standards and privileges

Resolved,

That this House agrees with the principle as set out in the Twelfth Report from the Committee on Standards in Public Life that lay members should sit on the Committee on Standards and Privileges; and invites the Procedure Committee to bring forward proposals to implement it.—(Mr Barron.)

Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Commons Chamber

14:24

[Adam Afriyie (Windsor) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House regrets the unnecessarily high costs and inadequacies of the systems introduced by the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority (IPSA); calls on the IPSA to introduce a simpler scheme of office expenses and Members’ allowances that cuts significantly the administrative costs, reduces the amount of time needed for administration by Members and their staff, does not disadvantage less welloff Members and those with family responsibilities, nor deter Members from seeking reimbursement of the costs of fulfilling their parliamentary duties; and resolves that if these objectives are not reflected in a new scheme set out by the IPSA in time for operation by 1 April 2011, the Leader of the House should make time available for the amendment of the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 to do so.

I thank hon. Members across the House for their support in crafting the motion and for coming to the debate. In particular, I thank the chairs of the Back-Bench committees for each of the parties. This is a cross-party motion which enjoys wide cross-party support. I thank the hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) for hosting the debate in Westminster Hall earlier this year, where hon. Members were able to give their initial view of the systems being operated by the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority.

It would be all too easy for Members of Parliament to moan about the details of how the existing scheme is working, but from all the conversations that I have had over the past several months, I am reassured that that is not the purpose of today’s debate. Members have been reassuringly consistent in their view, in private and public conversations, that the debate is about ensuring that we get a grip on a system that is taking MPs’ time away from constituents and is costing the taxpayer far too much money. Although there are personal inconveniences to Members of Parliament, which are fully recognised by all MPs, that is not the primary purpose of the motion. I thank the Backbench Business Committee and its Chair for having the courage to hold the debate on a substantive motion.

The motion presents an opportunity significantly to reduce the costs of Parliament to the taxpayer, an opportunity to allow MPs to spend more time representing their constituents, and an opportunity to reform a system that unintentionally discriminates against MPs with family commitments and those who come from a less well-off background. Above all, the motion offers a chance finally to begin or continue the process of restoring confidence in Parliament. If it is passed, as I hope it will be, it will send a clear message to IPSA and the country that Parliament wants a new expenses scheme that cuts the cost to the taxpayer and allows Members to conduct their duties for their constituents.

The motion urges IPSA to be bold in proposing a new scheme. I hope it will introduce one that works. The motion is also clear that if IPSA fails to do that, Parliament will act in the interests of the country by proposing the necessary reforms.

The history of payments to MPs is informative. I do not intend to go through the entire history, but it is useful in the present context. A simple Members’ allowance was introduced in 1911. It was transformed—or deformed, I would argue—over the past century into a byzantine system of hidden expenses and allowances. That happened because Parliament allowed it to happen. Past Governments, understandably, avoided politically unacceptable and unpalatable pay rises for MPs, but these rises were necessary as the nature of the job changed, the amount of correspondence changed, and the expectation on MPs to be in their constituencies more often increased. MPs failed to assert themselves over the past 100 years on behalf of their constituents.

From the mid-2000s, MPs knew the system would eventually undermine the integrity of Parliament. When I arrived as a new Member in 2005, that was pretty clear from the conversations and from the worries that were being expressed. However, I think it is safe to say that the initial system introduced by IPSA is now also creating problems, and they will make it difficult for Parliament to do its work in the future. For the sake of our democracy, Members of Parliament have a duty to act if IPSA does not bring forward a scheme that sorts out these problems.

Last year’s expenses revelations were a well-deserved kick in the teeth for Parliament. They should also have served as a wake-up call alerting us to the fact that action needed to be taken. We must act now, and avoid dragging the British Parliament back into disrepute purely because we may be nervous about the initial public reaction to what we say.

I will address the motion shortly, but first I want to say that I greatly commend the staff at IPSA both for putting up with us, because we can be very forceful in making our representations to them, and for implementing a scheme that was designed not by them but by the IPSA board. We must take care to recognise that the staff at IPSA are working hard in trying to implement the scheme, even if it does not work for our constituents.

I also welcome the publication of MPs’ claims this morning; IPSA is right to publish them, because accountability must be at the heart of any system that is put in place. Like all other Members, I accept, of course, that it is a complete coincidence that the claims, along with other publications and leaks, were published this morning; I accept that the timing of that has nothing to do with today’s debate. However, it is alarming that IPSA has chosen not to publish the receipts behind the claims, because we have been here before. If there is a claim and a supporting receipt, it is essential that the receipt is shown to the public, or made readily available to them. I believe this decision will prove to be calamitous. It implies secrecy and concealment when MPs should have nothing to hide, and it encourages misinterpretation and miscommunication unnecessarily. It is inevitable and right that under the Freedom of Information Act people will request to see these receipts, and they will therefore become available. Why on earth were they not published immediately? I think that will turn out to be a mistake.

I recognise that some might say that it is exceptionally expensive to publish such receipts, and I agree. It is very expensive to process receipts and then publish them with redactions for privacy and other reasons. My counter-argument to that is straightforward, however: IPSA should have been aware of these costs and burdens when it introduced a scheme that demanded that such procedures were followed. It cannot be an excuse that it costs too much to publish receipts if that is what is required under the system IPSA initially designed. I therefore encourage it to change the system.

[Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for securing this debate and for his contribution thus far. Does he know how many Members of Parliament IPSA consulted before setting up this scheme?

[Adam Afriyie]

That is a very good question. I have the figure 44 in my head for the number of responses to the initial January consultation. A quarter to a third of them were completely against the kind of scheme IPSA eventually introduced, while the other three quarters or two thirds raised specific issues that were not directly related to the terms of the consultation. The input from Members of Parliament in a public sense was therefore fairly minimal; only about 11 MPs actually made a contribution. That is a little concerning. I think the reason behind that low figure is that we as Members of Parliament all know that anything we write on expenses that is in the public domain is a hostage to fortune. We have to overcome that reluctance, however, because unless we show confidence and courage and make it absolutely clear that we will not tolerate an unnecessarily expensive system and an unnecessarily burdensome bureaucracy that takes us away from our constituents, we will fall into the same trap we have fallen into in the past. I therefore have a tremendous sense of déjà vu.

The expenses scandal coincided with the run-up to the general election—it was almost part of the general election campaign—so there was a political need to resolve the issue quickly. I think we all recognise that, and I think we all accept that something needed to be done fairly briskly. However, on reflection now, a year later, it seems to me that perhaps in our haste we have lost some time. Even with the best intentions in the world, there have been omissions and errors in the establishment of the current regime, and they need to be tackled.

Ignoring warnings from the Clerk of the House and others, we have created a curious beast. We have handed over control of the work of MPs to an unelected and unaccountable body. IPSA is judge and jury; IPSA is both regulator and the regulated. MPs are rightly accountable to the people who elect them, whereas IPSA is accountable to nobody, yet IPSA can control the way MPs work—it can control the amount of time that MPs have available to them to conduct their duties. That is a curious state of affairs, and if we are honest with ourselves we would never tolerate that set-up in any other walk of life, or in any other part of government or the civil service.

I do not doubt that the chairman and board of IPSA have good intentions, but is it right that the current system continues to frustrate the work of democratically elected MPs? The issue is not about us and our minor inconveniences, but about our constituents and the time that we can spend with them, so we have to be bold in what we do.

[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

To be completely fair to IPSA, the scheme that it had to implement had already been handed to it by the Committee on Standards in Public Life, and if I remember correctly there was a curious collision of timetables, whereby IPSA was set up at the same time as the committee was holding its inquiry. I am afraid that we politicians are responsible collectively for the mess that IPSA inherited from us, and I think that my hon. Friend is appealing for it to take charge, to fulfil its remit and to take full responsibility for the scheme that it now implements.

[Adam Afriyie]

I very much welcome my hon. Friend’s intervention. It is quite clear that the Committee on Standards in Public Life had not reported at the time when IPSA was instructed to create a scheme, so we must take responsibility for that. We were in a hurry—with the right intentions—to change the system so that an external body would set the rates of remuneration and pay, but it is widely recognised that in our haste we created something that needs adjustment.

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

The hon. Gentleman is certainly making a positive contribution for all of us. Is it not odd that IPSA itself is not situated on the parliamentary estate? It is also reluctant to give information about its senior executives; I have now waited a fortnight for a parliamentary answer about the number of senior people in the management team and their salaries. Incidentally, it might interest the hon. Gentleman to know that the dog of my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) shows absolutely rapt attention to every word he says.

[Adam Afriyie]

In which case I shall pursue the issue doggedly!

[Mr David Blunkett (Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough) (Lab)]

I should like initially to make it absolutely clear that the dog has claimed no allowances whatever!

The hon. Gentleman knows, because I have communicated this point to him, that we need to reflect on the public’s reaction a year ago. Indeed, I contributed to the discussion in January and was in favour of a much simpler administrative scheme than the current one. Is the review at the beginning of January not an opportunity to try to get the system right, in a non-adversarial way; to take the public or, at least, the opinion-formers with us, rather than back a year; to make the job of IPSA staff, whom he rightly praises for trying to operate a difficult system, much easier; and to ensure, therefore, that MPs benefit from a simpler process, the public benefit from a cheaper process and the world outside believes that we have not once again lost our marbles?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Can we have shorter interventions? A lot of Members wish to speak in this very important debate.

[Adam Afriyie]

I welcome the intervention and the correspondence between me and the right hon. Gentleman, although we have a slightly different view about the purpose of today’s motion. We know that there will never be a win on this subject with the media and the public, whatever the scheme’s initial form. That is just never going to happen. Anybody who has been around the media, business or politics for long enough knows that that will never happen, so the question for us is: what type of scheme would be most beneficial to constituents and the taxpayer?

I welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s input during the initial set-up, and I recognise his hard work in looking for a simple scheme, but I suspect that IPSA has not fully taken on board the power that we have given it to simplify things and make our jobs easier. My greatest hope today is that the terms of the motion never need to be used, and that IPSA comes forward with a scheme that works, thereby enabling us to do our job.

With regard to the intervention of the hon. Member for Walsall North, it is notoriously difficult to get information out of IPSA, and I understand why. Among other practices, it might not reflect well on IPSA if its senior salaries were compared with the salaries of Members of Parliament. I believe that there is also concern over the cost of the buildings that it has hired and the contracts into which it has entered. I do not want to go into the minutiae of how IPSA operates; I want to focus on the purpose of the motion and the consequences of its being passed this afternoon.

The motion presents an opportunity for the Government and our political party leaders to stand aside from this issue. The moment a party leader speaks on this subject, it is ignited and becomes a party political matter, with the parties wrangling with each other. The moment a Government get involved, it is a headline media issue—why are the Government trying to change IPSA and get rid of its independence? It is untenable for Governments and political party leaders to handle this issue, and they cannot do so in the way that is needed. I put it to the House that it is right for Parliament to handle this issue and to create the opportunity for the Government and party leaders to stand aside and allow measures to be brought forward. If it looks like those measures will cost the taxpayer more, of course the Government should have a right of veto. However, we need to deliver to the Government and party leaders the opportunity to step aside and allow this place time for calm contemplation and to bring forward measures. It is then up to the Government to make a judgment. We would be doing our party leaders a service, and it would be the first time in 100 years that they would have been given such an opportunity on the issue of MPs’ conditions and remuneration.

[Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)]

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is an advocate of worker representation, but does he accept that it would be unusual in any other workplace to invite the employees to set the terms of their expenses arrangements?

[Adam Afriyie]

The hon. Gentleman is a new Member, and he is spot on. That is why the majority of hon. Members believe that it was right that an independent body set the rates of remuneration. We talked about privilege earlier, and this is a matter not of MPs’ privilege but of the people’s privilege to have an MP who can work, unimpeded by a third party that is unaccountable to the public. If a body can tell MPs how to do their work—which, in effect, IPSA can in its current form—democracy and the people’s voice are undermined.

[Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)]

My hon. Friend is being very generous in giving way. Perhaps he would like to disabuse my hon. Friend the Member for Chippenham (Duncan Hames) of the notion that we are employees. When I came to this House, I wrote to the then Speaker to inquire about the possibility of availing myself of child care vouchers. I was told that it was not possible because I was not an employee, but was regarded by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs as self-employed. That is the distinction.

[Adam Afriyie]

Absolutely. My hon. Friend hits on the key issue, which has not been resolved in the last 100 years, of whether a Member of Parliament is a paid employee with a salary, in which case one would expect a job description. MPs do not have job descriptions; it is therefore semi-illogical that they would have salaries. HMRC is absolutely correct that for most intents and purposes, MPs are self-employed. I will comment on that in a moment, but I am conscious of the time that I am taking.

[Bob Russell]

In answer to parliamentary questions that I tabled, IPSA graciously acknowledged that I am employed by the good people of Colchester. It also acknowledged that I am the employer of my staff and that it is not the employer of MPs’ staff. However, half the time it behaves as if it were the employer of MPs, and half the time as if it were the employer of MPs’ staff.

[Adam Afriyie]

That is the irreconcilable nature of the task that IPSA has been set. These are quite deep waters and I am not sure that we can get into the intricacies in this debate. The hon. Gentleman is right that there is a fundamental incompatibility between an external body controlling the terms and conditions by which staff are employed and the responsibility for that employment falling with the individual Member.

[Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)]

I completely support what the hon. Gentleman is saying. Can we move back to the motion and to trying to consider how we rationalise the headings in respect of what the regime is all about? It is clear to me that it is all so time-consuming and unnecessary and will lead to our running out of money in certain budgets. That problem would be overcome if there was a bit of rationalisation before 1 April next year—the date set by the hon. Gentleman in the motion.

[Adam Afriyie]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for bringing me back to the motion, which is where we really need to be, especially given how long I have taken so far. He is absolutely right to say that we are looking for the schemes to be simplified. I hope that the motion will give IPSA the licence to do that without our having to bring forward measures. There are other anomalies that may need to be dealt with through legislation, including statutory instruments, but they do not relate directly to the reimbursement or remuneration of MPs.

I turn back to the motion, which has three substantive parts. First, there is the regret about the unnecessary bureaucracy that impedes MPs’ work for their constituents. Secondly, there is the regret about the unnecessarily high cost of the scheme; I shall not go into the details of how the new scheme costs 50% more than the one in the previous Parliament, although I am sure that others will. There are also irreconcilable differences in IPSA’s January consultation. Principle 9 in chapter 2 says that

“Arrangements should be flexible enough to take account of the diverse working patterns and demands placed upon individual MPs”,

but by introducing a prescriptive and rigid system, IPSA has manifestly failed to recognise that point in the scheme so far. Principle 10 in chapter 2 says:

“The system should be clear and understandable. If it is difficult to explain an element of the system in terms which the general public will regard as reasonable, that is a powerful argument against it.”

Yet the current system fails to respect that principle. How can IPSA expect the general public to understand the system when we MPs find it virtually impossible to understand? That is another irreconcilable point.

Sections 3.1 and 3.2 state that there is no formal job description for an MP and that defining an MP’s duties is notoriously difficult. However, the document goes on to attempt to define that role. Section 3.13 recognises the varying accommodation needs of every MP. Why, then, is the system so prescriptive about the nature of that accommodation, irrespective of family situation or the rapidly changing circumstances of individual Members?

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I am a new Member with a constituency in outer London. Every night, I am lucky enough to return to my family. However, many colleagues tell me that, for four to five days a week, they have extreme difficulty in seeing their families because the allowances do not permit it. In many cases, a Member cannot keep their family with them unless they are rich enough. I feel that that is wrong.

[Adam Afriyie]

Hear, hear! Absolutely. The system seems almost designed to create a Parliament for the wealthy. If a Member does not have sufficient resources to subsidise themselves, they become ensnared in a vice-like grip designed to bring them into disrepute—they have to produce every single receipt for some sort of personal item. Wealthier Members or those with independent means, of course, can simply not claim. As I look around both sides of the Chamber, I know that probably not a single Member here has claimed everything that they are entitled to claim—first, through fear of the public and the media really having a go, or secondly, because it is too complicated and time-consuming to do so.

We have to ask ourselves whether the public want such a system for their Parliament. The wealthy swan through, buy their way out of the system with no trouble at all and are treated as saints when they are nothing of the sort, and everyone else is stuck in the system.

[Joan Walley (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Lab)]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that one of the main issues is that IPSA does not seem to have understood that MPs have responsibilities and duties in their constituency and similarly here in Parliament? The current system does not take that into account, so the costs of one or the other have to be subsidised, or can be met by those who have wealth. If MPs do not have that wealth, they are simply unable to meet the costs of operating in two places at once.

[Adam Afriyie]

Exactly that debate was had in 1911. After the Osborne judgment, Labour Members could no longer be funded by the unions, which meant, in effect, that they were destitute. Then, in 1911, a flat rate—a beautifully simple Members’ allowance— was introduced at £400 a year. Members were told: “There you go. This is not a salary, a remuneration, a reimbursement of expenses or a payment in kind for services; it is merely an allowance that recognises that there are costs associated with being here, and Members are trusted to organise their lives in the way that is necessary.”

One cannot second-guess and legislate for the topography of every seat or the lifestyles—the changing lifestyles—of every MP, or for the reproduction rates of MPs: we are now on our fifth. One cannot create a system that takes into account whether the trains are working or whether it is going to snow and being told only at 5 o’clock in the evening. There is no way that the route that IPSA is currently pursuing will satisfy the needs of the public to have a Parliament that functions effectively.

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

So why not go back to a simple flat-rate allowance for everybody?

[Adam Afriyie]

The Parliamentary Standards (Amendment) Bill, which will appear on tomorrow’s Order Paper—of course, I do not know what is going to happen to it—says that that is exactly what we ought to do, because it would save the taxpayer money and give MPs time to serve their constituents. That proposal is not directly related to the motion, but I just point it out. It would take courage to enact such a simple, straightforward scheme, and I urge IPSA to have the courage to do so. There is nothing more transparent than a flat-rate Members’ allowance: everyone can see what it is and everyone can see that every MP gets the same thing.

The current system causes inconvenience and makes things very difficult for Members with families and Members who are less well-off. It also causes problems, because Members are not making claims. Looking back at this year, and certainly over the past six months, I know that virtually every one of my colleagues—I have spoken to 350 MPs one-to-one—has not made the claims that they are entitled to make. That may be seen externally as a great success—“Look, IPSA has crushed the MPs, and they cost far less!”—but we all know that that is not the situation. We know that Members are borrowing from their parents, having to borrow cars from friends, and still sleeping on floors of offices, which they are not supposed to do, because they are not claiming what they rightfully should be able to claim. It is not a good situation.

However, I am not moaning on behalf of existing MPs. I love all the MPs here, but I am not whingeing on their behalf. What I am concerned about is the functioning of Parliament for the next 100 years. Where will we be in 30 years’ time if we continue down this route where only the wealthy can serve? That is where we were before; I thought we had moved on. IPSA, I hope you are listening.

[Nadine Dorries (Mid Bedfordshire) (Con)]

The Chamber is largely full of men today and women are represented only in small number, so I ask that this comment is not regarded as sexist. The IPSA regulations say that mothers with teenage children are not allowed to have their children to stay with them in their overnight accommodation in London. When a single mother is telephoned from the school or university and told that their child is sick and to collect them and take them home, what are they supposed to do? Mothers are not allowed to have their children with them, yet we have to be here to carry out our duties. Does my hon. Friend agree that the IPSA regulations are particularly difficult for women?

[Adam Afriyie]

I am making the same observation, and my hon. Friend highlights the point very well.

The motion asks not for a system that involves looking into the individual lifestyle of every Member, but merely for a simplified system that recognises the variability in family arrangements. The motion asks not for a system that investigates the lifestyle, family arrangements and travelling habits of every MP, but for a simpler system that saves the taxpayer money, so that MPs can focus on the job at hand, whether or not they have a family.

I shall come to my closing remarks, because I am conscious of time. The third part of the motion is significant. I am begging IPSA please to propose a scheme that sorts the problems out, and I hope that it will. It has the mandate of the House of Commons already, so it can do so. However, the motion states that if a scheme that can be put into operation by 1 April 2011 is not proposed, this place will act—not in our interests, but in the interests of our constituents and Parliament.

I am now on the record as encouraging IPSA to come forward with a scheme, but we must be clear on timing. If a proposal is not forthcoming by, say, mid-January, it will be impossible to introduce a scheme before the beginning of the next financial year. Therefore, if the motion is carried, it is necessary for us to introduce a Bill or a statutory instrument or something, probably this side of Christmas, in case IPSA’s proposal is not the right one. Otherwise, we are trapped within the current system, and our constituents will suffer. The costs will be astronomically high for at least another year to a year and a half, and I fear that Members will begin to leave Parliament. The work of Parliament will continue to be impeded unless such changes are made.

[Mr Andrew Tyrie (Chichester) (Con)]

My hon. Friend makes a strong case and a plea to IPSA to get on with it. Does he agree that it is up to the Government to empower IPSA by sending a strong message that they support the need for radical reform of a system that, in the end, on administrative cost grounds alone, ought to be seen as unsustainable and unworkable?

[Adam Afriyie]

That was exceptionally well put. One of my big asks of the Government is that they communicate the message that IPSA is empowered to make those changes and should not be nervous about doing so if the motion is passed.

This is a sensitive issue and the public are understandably concerned. I am certain that tomorrow this debate will be reported as, “MPs whinge about their conditions and the independent body that controls them”, but that is not what the debate is about. The debate is about saving the taxpayer money and ensuring that MPs’ voices are heard and not hidden through fear of speaking out.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

As a Member of the 2010 intake, I have no personal knowledge of the system that ran before, but I came here from the private sector, and the IPSA system epitomises everything I had always believed to be wrong with government—it is bureaucratic, inefficient and very expensive. The system fails in two respects. First, unless hon. Members are of considerable personal wealth, they are prevented from conducting their duties as their constituents would like; and secondly, that this system was adopted in response to such serious allegations against conduct in the previous Parliament is a stain on this place. The system is failing and it needs reform.

[Adam Afriyie]

I thank my hon. Friend very much for that intervention; everyone will have heard what he said.

We know that the current system costs the taxpayer far too much, that it takes the time of MPs away from their constituents, and that it will continue to undermine Members, particular those with families and those who are less well off. We have a duty to act in the taxpayer’s interest if IPSA does not propose a new scheme. One former Prime Minister said:

“The first duty of a member of Parliament is to do what he thinks in his faithful and disinterested judgement is right and necessary for the honour and safety of Great Britain. His second duty is to his constituents of whom he is the representative but not the delegate.”

We must stand up, in a disinterested fashion—not for our own purposes—and insist that IPSA propose another system. If it does not, we must resolve to act. That is what the motion proposes.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. As hon. Members are aware, Mr Speaker has decided not to select the amendment. Many Members wish to speak, so brevity is essential.

15:00

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) on his excellent speech and on the way in which he introduced the debate. I hope that he continues throughout his life in Parliament to feel as much affection for all hon. Members as he expressed today, although I doubt that that will continue as time goes on. However, I appreciated the opening words of his speech.

I had my whinge last time round when we had the first debate in Westminster Hall. I also got very angry, and I still feel angry that, because of the activities of a few Members in the past, we have all been smeared. We continue to be smeared by the belief that we are all crooks, and after 26 years in Parliament I resent that immensely. We all found during the general election campaign that whether we had done something or not, we were all considered to be crooks. Someone came up to me during the campaign and shouted, “Thief!” If I had been a man, I would have run after him and punched him in the face, because I feel about this so strongly. I am not a thief and I have never been a thief. I object to Members being considered as thieves, because the vast majority of people in this place are nothing of the sort, and it is not right that we have been smeared by the activities of a few.

A member of my staff uses the online expenses system to fill in the forms on my behalf. I had not thought of the idea of one of my colleagues, who told IPSA that his finger was in plaster and he was unlikely to be taking it out of plaster, which meant that IPSA officials had to go to his office to fill in expense claims on his behalf. I wanted to look at the problems as dispassionately as possible, so I asked my member of staff about his experiences and to outline the difficulties he had encountered. He said:

“Although after the MPs expenses fiasco there was a genuine desire to create a new and more transparent system to pay Members’ expenses, I do not think the system put in place by IPSA is the best alternative”—

he was also aware of the previous system. He continued:

“The new system is in no way more transparent than the system it replaced, the main difference is that rather than submit paper claims Members must now submit them online. It seems as though rather than looking for a simple solution”—

several colleagues have suggested such a solution today—

“(such as daily allowances or issuing credit cards to Members for their expenses) an expensive all consuming bureaucratic monster has been created.”

Several issues have arisen after six months of the new system. Inevitably, Members allow their staff to fill out and submit claims forms on their behalf. The previous system did not allow anyone except the Member to sign the forms before they were submitted, but the new system places a lot of trust in the hands of a non-elected proxy. The way in which the travel card statement is sent to the proxy’s IPSA account, not to Members, is very time consuming and confusing. The Member travel card has the potential to simplify the way in which Members claim, but the way in which it operates only adds to the problems of the online system.

[Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab)]

Does my right hon. Friend also recognise that the new travel card system is far more complicated than the old system? Under the old system, we had a statement once a month that we had to go through to check that the information was correct. We then ticked it and signed it ourselves before sending it back. Under the present system, we have to provide the information in paper form and then put it back online, as well as sending in the individual rail tickets. Frankly, that is complete nonsense.

[Ann Clwyd]

I thank my hon. Friend. That is a very good point.

During the first few months of the new system’s operation, Members faced huge delays in getting any claims reimbursed. They accumulated large amounts of debt at the beginning of a new Parliament, and a great deal of time and manpower has been spent trying to balance the books ever since. This unnecessarily takes time away from other parliamentary duties, as has been pointed out. During the past six months, IPSA has twice lost or not received the receipts we have sent in the post. IPSA is adamant that all claims must be accompanied by original receipts, but no contingency plan has been put in place to deal with lost receipts. The old system allowed Members to send in photocopies of receipts, while we filed the originals for our own records. Members are now at risk if they do not take photocopies of all receipts before sending them to IPSA.

Communicating with or contacting IPSA is not easy. There is only one general phone number and e-mail address for Members to contact. We have all been put on hold for more than 45 minutes while waiting to discuss issues with IPSA staff and, due to a lack of replies, we have all but given up trying to contact IPSA via e-mail.

I am sure that there would have been many more Members here today if they were not still fearful of the press. We all know that whatever we say here today will be picked up and used in one way or another. Some Members who would have liked to be here to make similar points to the ones we are making are not here because of a certain amount of fear. It is ridiculous that elected Members of Parliament, who often have to stand up for their constituents, find it difficult to stand up for themselves.

[Mr Winnick]

It is quite possible that new Members fear the local press in particular, and worry that it might say that the moment that they are elected, they start complaining. Is there not therefore a greater responsibility on those of us who have been here some time to make this case today?

[Ann Clwyd]

I thank my hon. Friend for making that point, and I am glad that so many of us are here to make that case.

As a former journalist, I have been quite surprised at the many leaks that have appeared in the press on matters concerning MPs’ discussions with IPSA and what they have sent into IPSA. A headline in The Times yesterday read “Carry on claiming; MPs are already flouting new rules on expenses”. The article went on to give details. Now, I admire good journalists, and well done to them for getting the story, but how did they get it unless somebody at IPSA leaked it to them? This morning, a colleague told me that they had been talking to a member of the press who had been offered information by somebody at IPSA on certain “juicy” bits that had not yet emerged in the press about what certain Members had claimed for. The story in The Times said that one MP had had a claim for £338 for a shredder refused. Why on earth was he refused that for a shredder? We all use shredders; we often have to shred correspondence, for example. But that is not the point. How on earth did the newspaper get that story in the first place?

I have been told an allegation that I cannot personally prove, but the information has been given to me on very good authority. I make the allegation because it is doing the rounds—I apologise to the person about whom the allegation is made if it is not true, and she might like to deny it during the course of the day—and it is that the information is coming from the Director of Communications at IPSA, Anne Power. She can either refute that or, if it is the case, agree that it is true. I have every reason to believe my source and that that is the case. There must be an answer to why, every time we have a debate on IPSA, an anti-MP story appears the day before. The information must come from the only people with that knowledge, and that must be the people at IPSA. Today, they must deny or otherwise admit that that person has offered that information to a member of the press.

15:11

[Mr Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd). May I add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) not only on bringing this debate to the House today but on the considerable amount of hard work he has put in over many months to seek to redress what indubitably has been and remains a wrong? My hon. Friend has studiously given IPSA, perhaps appropriately, until all fools’ day to come back with a better scheme. Personally, I would prefer to see a change now, but I shall support his motion in the Lobby, if necessary, later.

I want to pay tribute to the staff of the former Fees Office, many of whom have been reviled—shamefully, sometimes in this House, but more particularly in the press—because of the systems that had developed. Those staff, known to many of us in previous Parliaments, were in the main diligent, courteous and careful and did a very good job. Some are now working for IPSA, but I happen to know that some of them are acutely disturbed by the climate of mistrust in IPSA that has been inculcated into them and imposed on them from the top. By the top, I mean the chairman and the interim chief executive. Let us now call a spade a spade and understand what we are talking about.

The hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) said it was up to those of us who have knocked around for a bit to speak up for the newer Members of the House. It will not have escaped your notice, Mr Deputy Speaker, that I am practically halfway through my parliamentary career—[Laughter.] Did I hear somebody say “shame”? On that basis, I believe that some of us have a duty to say things that young men and women who entered this Parliament for the first time in May need to have said for them but do not feel able to say for themselves. There has been a climate of fear and of mistrust. There is a feeling that if we complain our constituents will not understand and the local and national press certainly will not understand. There are some things that we must get on the record.

In introducing the debate, my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor said that he was trying to stimulate a measure in the interests of our constituents and in the interests of saving money. He is absolutely right. The system that has been imposed on us is wasteful, costly and bureaucratic and it is failing. We have to get that right. The interim chief executive of IPSA, in one of his many issued statements, said that

“the core of our mission is to support parliamentary democracy.”

Mr Churchill might have used the phrase “round objects”. I am sorry, I do not accept that. Our job goes to the core of parliamentary democracy, and parliamentary democracy is being interfered with by the scheme that has been imposed on us.

Let us be absolutely clear about this: not just in the last Parliament but probably in the two or three before, things went very badly wrong. Some former Members behaved in a way that can only be described as less than honourable, and we all need to understand that there was, and remains, a need for change. But change for the sake of change, on the basis of “My shirt is hairier than yours”, is not a way of taking the House forward.

The hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) asked how many Members had been consulted before the new scheme was devised. The answer is none or very few. We have to accept that IPSA found itself faced with a well nigh impossible task, and I do not demur from that at all. It had to try to put together a scheme within the time scale that our Front Benchers on both sides of the House demanded—we need to be clear about where some of the responsibility for that lies. That was very difficult, but having said that, the people at the top of IPSA have chosen—I believe partly through arrogance—to ignore the fundamentals and not to do the groundwork and research necessary to put in place not just a scheme, but a scheme that worked.

I have invited the interim chief executive of IPSA, courteously and on three separate occasions, to visit my parliamentary office. It is located in my constituency, but it is not a constituency office. That is a fundamental difference. I have chosen to locate my entire business in the constituency. I have tried to impress on the interim chief executive the point that if a Member of Parliament has his or her office based within the parliamentary estate, and if all their staff are based there, all their bills for telephone calls, office equipment, heating, lighting, cleaning, office rental, rates, fire precautions—the whole kit and caboodle—are paid for by the House authorities. That represents a difference of about £17,000 a year between that Member and another Member with his or her parliamentary office in the constituency. That means, of course, that the information published today is hopelessly distorted. My telephone bills for my parliamentary office will be much higher than those of colleagues who use the phones here.

The interim chief executive wrote back to me and completely missed the point, saying, “Well, if you’ve got a problem with this, we’re quite prepared to review the amount that you’re allowed.” I do not want the amount that I am allowed reviewed, and I do not want to spend any more money. Over 27 years in this place, I have already subsidised my office costs to the taxpayer to the tune of a quarter of a million pounds, and I have done so uncomplainingly. However, I do not want to be misunderstood by people who have devised a scheme without taking the trouble to get out there, visit offices and really understand what the job of a Member of Parliament is about.

I asked when the interim chief executive had visited a constituency or a parliamentary office in a constituency, how often and where. Hon. Members may be dismayed to learn that the answer, which came after a freedom of information request because I was not initially told, stated that the chief executive’s first visit to any office was on 9 July, the election having been in May. That was to the office of the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), where he spent two days. More recently—very recently—the man who told me that it was not possible to visit my office visited South Thanet, which is four miles down the road.

[Mr Kevan Jones]

Does the hon. Gentleman also agree that a good example of IPSA completely misunderstanding how an MP’s office runs was its early diktat that it would pay only 85% of our phone bills, on the basis that the other 15% related to our personal use?

[Mr Gale]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. I shall discuss the costs of IPSA now, because I am conscious that a lot of hon. Members wish to speak and I must not take up too much time.

I want to address issues such as IPSA’s extravagance and waste. The office costs issue is important. IPSA’s chief executive says that plenty of people in the public sector pay their bills and then reclaim the money. I am sorry, but I do not believe that IPSA’s chief executive pays any part of the rent for his office in Victoria—or his phone, heating, lighting and cleaning bills—and then claims it back. I therefore asked how much IPSA was spending on that. The rental for those offices, which are not on the parliamentary estate, as the hon. Member for Walsall North said, costs £348,000 a year over the life of the lease.

I am still waiting—IPSA is out of time on this—for a freedom of information follow-up to tell me how much IPSA is spending on business rates, heating, lighting, cleaning, service charges, depreciation and all the other costs. That figure has to be in excess of £500,000. I note that Mr Speaker has said that he wants IPSA’s costs cut to £2 million. If just the building costs £500,000, even before we have put any people in it, and if we now have to pay for the gold key online expenses submissions system, £2 million will not be enough, despite the fact that the old Fees Office did the entire job for that money.

Funding of the online key scheme is discrete; IPSA will not give the answer under freedom of information legislation because the information is commercial in confidence and providing it might prejudice future negotiations. What I can tell the House is that IPSA has entered into a five-year contract. I suspect it has done so at very considerable expense and with no break clause. So if we do revise this scheme, the taxpayers will find themselves paying the bill up to the full five years.

We asked the chief executive what the purpose of all the duplication is. Our staff spend six hours a week online, filling in forms on the screen, item by item and line by line. That is fine, but they then have to print the whole darned lot, back it up with receipts and send it in. IPSA’s chief executive does not consider that to be duplication, but if doing something twice is not duplication, I do not know what is.

Finally, I wish to discuss an issue that has been raised and is of grave concern to new and younger Members, particularly those with young families: the living costs allowed to Members of Parliament to maintain the necessary accommodation—I emphasise the word “necessary”—in the constituency and in London. It appears to have escaped IPSA’s understanding that Members of Parliament do work in the House of Commons and in our constituencies.

I know colleagues in Kent who represent quite large constituencies that have only one station, which is perhaps just within an hour by train from London. We need to understand that that is just under an hour platform to platform, not door to door. They do not receive any London weighting, any London living allowance or any accommodation allowance at all, so they find themselves, having come into this place believing that they have come here to do a job of work on behalf of their constituents, either having to pay to get home late at night or having to travel home before the vote at 10 pm. Where is the sense in that? I do not know of any journey time that starts when the train arrives at the platform and ends when it arrives at the platform at the other end, but takes no account of the time it takes someone to get from their home or office to that platform to wait for the train, to catch the train, to be delayed, to get off at the other end and to get back home or to their place of work. That is arrant nonsense. When I told IPSA that those people were being unfairly treated, I was told:

“IPSA did not consider that eligibility for accommodation could reasonably be decided on the basis on where the MP elected to live. This would have created a perverse incentive for the MP to opt to live further away from Westminster, in order to be eligible for accommodation. The decision was therefore taken on principle that eligibility should depend on the constituency’s proximity to Westminster. It is then down to MPs whether they elect to live close to the station within their constituency which has the fastest links to Westminster”.

In other words, if Members do not like it, they should sell their houses and move closer to the station.

I have been in this place for a long time, and I want to leave it one day knowing that it is in safe hands—the hands of good people who have come here for the right reasons and who want to do the job that they were elected to do. If they are going to be able to do that, they have to have the resources. The people who are denying them those resources are the people who are currently running IPSA. We have two choices. This House—this democracy—will either be the province of the very rich or juvenile anoraks with no experience of life, business or anything at all, or we will sort this problem out. As far as we are concerned, IPSA has until 1 April. It had better get it right.

15:26

[John Mann (Bassetlaw) (Lab)]

I am just wondering which category I fall into: the rich or the junior anoraks with no experience of life.

New Members will have read the previous debates. They will have seen that there was a debate not only in January 2009, but in July 2008. They will have studied that debate. One need not read it for too long, however, because one is rehearing it today. I tabled an amendment on 3 July 2008. Unfortunately, my amendment did not manage to persuade the Speaker that it should be selected. So it is today, but there has been some progress, because today I have been called to speak in the debate, unlike in 2008. In that debate, a year before the expenses scandal became a public issue, the same arguments were made. That was exactly a year before—well, not exactly: it was nine months before—The Daily Telegraph got that leaked information, and the rest, as we say, is history. That debate of 3 July 2008 is therefore of significance and relevance. The same Westminster club, with its desire for a special status in society, was eloquently defended then in the same way that we have heard this afternoon. The rich or the junior anoraks with no experience of life? Well, I am not rich: I have no inherited wealth, no wealth siphoned away—

[Nadine Dorries]

And no friends.

[John Mann]

We hear the same kind of abuse that I got following that debate—some of it to my face; some was behind my back. My proposal then—new Members might want to listen carefully to this—was that the House should debar the practice of flipping. If that had been agreed, it is eminently predictable that the issue of mortgages would not have been resurrected in the way that it was the year after. An acceptable solution would have been in place as would a coherent system of mortgages. However, the House was not interested in listening to that, because, despite the fact that my resolution was passed, even though I could not get a seconder—I had read “Erskine May” and I knew the procedures—the powers that be managed to bury its implications. It was not enacted and a high price was paid.

The principle at issue is simple—this is why I back the independence of IPSA: should we cede our ability to determine how the rules on expenses are set and managed to an independent body or not? I can criticise how things are done; indeed, I have and some of my criticisms were listened to but some were not. We can all take a view on what the system should be, but the principle remains: should we cede the authority to determine these matters to IPSA—an independent body—or not? That was the basis on which we legislated, and the motion, which would have been improved by my amendment, which unfortunately has not been selected, breaks that principle.

I oppose and shall vote against the motion because it says that MPs should have the power to determine such matters. That was the fundamental weakness in the previous expenses system. There is a lot of history and reason behind all this, but there is also reason for the state we are in. I remind the House that we are about to go through a series of court cases and that others might follow. The media will be full of that and so will our constituents. We are in that state of play because of the previous expenses system. The fundamental weakness was not just in the detail but in the principle: the public rightly hated the fact that we set our own terms and conditions.

We rightly broke with that principle and it was inevitable that a new system starting from scratch would have a lot of problems—some of us said so at the time and feared it. Whoever set up the system, whether it was this chap Kennedy with his IPSA, Sir Christopher Kelly with his committee and his review or any other body, it would have had significant problems because of the complexity of the arrangements. Arbitrary decisions will be made, as they are in every expenses system. When I ran a business, I set the system for my employees and contractors, and when I was a union representative, I negotiated and tried to improve expenses systems. Of course, there were arbitrary decisions that I thought unfair when I was operating within other systems, but there always will be in any independent system. This all comes back to whether we set the system. That is the breach point; the motion would break that principle and that is why it is fundamentally wrong.

[Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con)]

Many new Members on the Government Benches have no issue with the principle of an independent, transparent organisation. As someone who publishes all her expenses on her website, I entirely support the move. The hon. Gentleman talked about creating something from scratch. Rather than going out and buying an off-the-shelf system that could have been provided by numerous companies around the world, we have been compelled to reinvent the wheel and we have ended up with a square wheel that is gold-plated at best. Surely, the hon. Gentleman, with his business experience, will have come across multiple organisations that could have done that for 650 Members. We are not a multi-million pound organisation with hundreds of thousands of employees. We are a small organisation that is struggling to do the best thing by British taxpayers and our constituents. I totally support the motion that my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) has tabled as a way of doing it better.

[John Mann]

If the hon. Lady supports the motion, she supports a break in the fundamental principle on which we legislated. [Hon. Members: “Read it! It doesn’t say that. You can’t read.”] Would hon. Members like to listen? [Hon. Members: “Can’t you read? Read it!”] Hon. Members choose to shout abuse. Yes, I can read, I have read the motion, and I have seen what the principle is. Hon. Members should read the 2008 debate and see the problem with the culture of MPs trying to determine the detail of their own expenses.

I refute the point made by the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie), who moved the motion, that MPs cannot do their job under the new system. I can do my job under the new system as well as I did it in the past. Nothing is restricting me in the range of things I do, or in how I interpret and do my job. I put it to him that mine is not the least busy of offices, and I am not taking on the least onerous amounts of work. In my estimation, IPSA has improved month on month, and will continue to do so. That is the salient point when starting a new system. I can see only a few areas where further improvement would have a significant impact.

[George Hollingbery (Meon Valley) (Con)]

I understand what the hon. Gentleman is saying, and I understand his problem with the motion. As a new Member, I welcome a transparent and publicly accountable expenses system that all can see, and I understand his problem—he thinks that Parliament is attempting to control IPSA in some way. However, he must recognise that this place has a duty of care to the taxpayer. How would he hold IPSA, and its expenses and costs, to account? I believe strongly that it does not provide good value for money. I have no particular beef with how it administers the system—although other hon. Members do—but will he explain how the House, which pays for IPSA with revenue raised from taxation, will hold it to account?

[John Mann]

When the House passed the relevant legislation, it put in place such processes. Similar processes were in place before. Although the Speaker did not select my amendment, he has the ability and power to do that now, and he uses that power to the best of his ability.

Earlier, from a sedentary position, certain hon. Members shouted, “Read it!”. So I will read out the motion, in case anyone else has not done so fully. It concludes that

“if these objectives are not reflected in a new scheme set out by the IPSA in time for operation by 1 April 2011, the Leader of the House should make time available for the amendment of the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 to do so.”

That is a fundamental step over the line between the House ceding authority to an independent body and not doing so. It might well be that an independent body establishes and maintains an expenses system that no Members of Parliament are happy with, but the moment the principle is accepted of ceding that authority, as has been done on salaries as well, that principle cannot be breached.

It is reasonable, of course, for me and other Members to raise with IPSA, or indeed any other independent body, criticisms we have and improvements we would make—and I have done so. My hon. Friend the Member for North Durham (Mr Jones) raised the issue of the travel card. I have raised that precise point with IPSA and suggested that its systems on that are far too bureaucratic, too onerous on Members and too expensive. I would consider that a sensible improvement. I have made that point, and I hope that it listens. It is right and proper that the House expresses concerns about the detail. I share the concerns, as I am sure does the hon. Member for Meon Valley (George Hollingbery), about some of the appointments at the top of IPSA. I do not think it needs all these high-falutin’ executives in post and being paid. So I totally agree with him, if that is the point he was alluding to.

[George Hollingbery]

indicated assent.

[John Mann]

I totally and absolutely agree on that point. That is a criticism I would make. However, that should not obscure the principle, and if we roll back the principle with this motion, we will be back to where we were on 3 July 2008, and we will be saying that it is for us to decide our pay and conditions. It is precisely that problem that created the system that led to the disregard in which we are still held by the British people. The fact that they believe we are all at it—all on the make—is not simply a temporary blip. For many of them that description will continue for a long time to characterise their perception of their Members of Parliament, which will bring about a fundamental weakness in our democracy.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) on securing the debate. I am a new Member, one of the 2010 intake. I campaigned against the abuse of expenses, and to this day I am disgusted by it. My concern is very simple: the time that I spend fiddling around with the expenses system is time that I cannot spend helping my constituents. That is my prime concern, and the prime reason why I support the motion.

[John Mann]

I can tell the hon. Gentleman that the amount of time that my staff and I have to spend on the system is greater than it was before, but I recall the system as it was before. As we have learnt from what has emerged, in those days a signature would do, and the scandals that followed made it clear that that was not sufficient. No organisation in the country that experienced such a level of scandal related to expenses would not have introduced a requirement for every box to be ticked and every receipt to be monitored. We cannot set ourselves a lower standard than we would expect of any corporation, or any other part of the public sector out there.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

I would have supported the hon. Gentleman’s amendment had Mr Speaker called it, because I thought its tone admirable. My point concerns the independence of any regulator of a sovereign Parliament. The difficulty is that, although that regulator may be independent in title, what the House of Commons gives by legislation it can take by legislation. Constitutionally, therefore, IPSA cannot be independent of Parliament—and nor should it be, because if it were independent of Parliament, it would be independent of the British people.

[John Mann]

I do not think that that would be an accurate constitutional point if there were a constitution. Parliament has powers to meddle with the courts. Parliament has the power, for example, to meddle with any piece of legislation. The question is whether Parliament should cede authority over the administering of, and the meddling with, such implements.

Parliament could, at some stage, decide to abolish, but my amendment seeks to influence by threatening to abolish, which in some respects is even more invidious than simply moving to abolish. For the House to suggest, six months into a new system, that that system is too onerous to allow Members to do their job properly is absurd. Legitimate criticisms can be made on grounds of both bureaucracy and expense, but we should not reverse the principles of a decision made so recently. I warn the House that if we do, the wrath of our constituents will rightfully fall on us, because we will be saying, “The bad old days were not that bad. We will create the system that we want to fit us.” [Hon. Members: “People are not saying that.”] Actually, people are saying many different things about the expenses system that would suit them and their position best. That is the problem with creating expenses systems: we have different constituencies, and experience different circumstances in different parts of the country.

[Andrew Bridgen]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[John Mann]

I shall conclude on this: the principles on which we changed—because we were forced to change, because in 2008 and January 2009 we refused to change the system or even to countenance changes to the system—are the same principles today. In pointing that out some of us may have to become a little less popular, but in this case it is not us who are the extremists in the debate. In this case we are the moderates in the debate, suggesting a moderate way forward. I advise the House that in this case moderation would do well.

15:45

[Sir John Stanley (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con)]

My hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) has performed a signal service to the House by initiating this debate. I congratulate him on his pertinent and important contribution.

I declare an interest. I am one of the 128 MPs who are no longer able to claim expenses for accommodation in London, even though—my hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet (Mr Gale) rightly alluded to this—my journey time correctly measured from my front door to my House of Commons office door is some two hours, and that is on days when it is not snowing.

I want to make five quick points. First, under section 5 of the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009, IPSA is under clear statutory consultation obligations. I believe that IPSA was in clear breach of those statutory obligations in respect of MPs like myself whose constituencies were not specifically identified either in the Kelly report or in IPSA’s own consultation document as constituencies where the MPs were likely to be deprived of their London accommodation expenses, virtually without notice. I consider that the treatment by IPSA of this group of MPs, particularly those who have rental contracts, has been wholly unacceptable.

The chronology ran as follows. On 29 March this year, IPSA published its MPs expenses scheme, and the MPs concerned learned, out of the blue, that they would no longer obtain reimbursement for their rental contracts. The expenses scheme was brought into statutory effect on the very same date by Mr Speaker laying the expenses scheme before the House. A few days later, on 12 April, Parliament was dissolved, and the MPs concerned therefore lost any ability to contest or to object to the provisions that had been included in the expenses scheme.

Polling day was a few weeks later on 6 May, and the IPSA expenses scheme came into legal effect on the following day, 7 May. Those MPs with rental contracts found themselves unable to claim reimbursement for their rental payments under those contracts with immediate effect. I believe this was a serious breach of IPSA’s statutory consultation obligations. If any employer, whether in the public or the private sector, had treated their people in the same way, they would face serious liability for damages in front of an employment tribunal.

[Mr Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)]

I hope my right hon. Friend will recognise that we are not employees in any sense. We are self-employed. Had he lost his seat on 6 May, there would have been no question of reimbursement from public funds for his rental contract, however much time remained unfilled.

[Sir John Stanley]

There is an important point on the status of MPs, to which I shall come later. If they were self-employed, they would determine their own expenses scheme. They emphatically are not doing so.

The second point is that in its expenses scheme, IPSA produced a schedule of what it described as “fundamental principles”. An important fundamental principle is fundamental principle 2. It reads:

“Members of Parliament have the right to be reimbursed for unavoidable costs where they are incurred wholly, exclusively, and necessarily in the performance of their parliamentary duties, but not otherwise.”

It is an illustration of the sad and regrettable fact that the IPSA board members have not adequately informed themselves about what is involved in the work of an MP that that principle, which IPSA says is fundamental, has not been complied with in a number of cases. I want to explain one such case.

As all of us know, what are deemed to be outer London Members—which includes a huge swathe representing constituencies in the home counties—regularly make day visits to their constituencies wholly for parliamentary purposes, such as to attend a school or a meeting with their health authority, but none of the travel costs for such trips are reimbursable under the IPSA expenses scheme unless the Member goes to his or her constituency office, which might be wholly irrelevant to the purpose of the journey. That is one illustration of IPSA failing to comply with what it describes as a fundamental principle, and I have no doubt that other Members can think of further situations when they have incurred expenses

“wholly, exclusively, and necessarily in the performance of their parliamentary duties”

that have not been reimbursed.

My third point is about a term with which we are all very familiar: maladministration. In the Westminster Hall debate initiated by the hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick), countless examples of maladministration by IPSA were given. It is very regrettable that in putting together the legislation that is the basis for IPSA, the previous Government failed to apply to IPSA as a statutory quango the same right of redress as applies in respect of a host of similar bodies—namely, the right for an individual to make a complaint of maladministration, in this case to the parliamentary ombudsman. It is equally regrettable that the current Government have thus far failed to address that.

I submitted a written parliamentary question on that point to the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General, which was answered this week:

“The remit of the Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration (the Parliamentary Ombudsman) is updated annually. As part of this exercise, consideration is given to whether bodies established in year should be brought within the Parliamentary Ombudsman’s remit.”—[Official Report, 29 November 2010; Vol. 519, c. 560W.]

The parliamentary ombudsman’s remit is under constant examination, and I believe IPSA should forthwith be brought within its remit so that Members of Parliament—and possibly others, such as Members’ staff—can make a complaint of maladministration against IPSA to the parliamentary ombudsman.

My fourth point is that in any properly functioning democracy it is, of course, essential that Ministers and Members of Parliament are not in any way above the law, but equally in any properly functioning democracy Members of Parliament should have the same rights in law as are available to other individuals who are engaged in their occupational work. Under IPSA, however, Members of Parliament are uniquely disadvantaged in law. IPSA is effectively performing the functions of the employer: in any walk of life it is the employer who determines what expenses can be claimed for, how they should be claimed for and so forth, and those are exactly IPSA’s functions. In any other walk of life, the employee—the person working—would be able to go to an employment tribunal. Members are not self-employed; we have employed status for tax purposes. IPSA is the employer in that it determines the expenses framework, but Members are, I believe, the only occupational group in this country who have employed status but no right of recourse to an employment tribunal. That should change, and we should have the same rights as every other occupation group, solely, I stress, in relation to IPSA and the performance of its expenses function and emphatically not—I repeat, not—in relation to the electorate.

My fifth and final point is about parliamentary privilege. Of the privileges that we have, one of the most important for the benefit of our constituents is the fundamental privilege of freedom from obstruction in the performance of our parliamentary duties. In our debates about IPSA, Member after Member has referred to the way in which they as Members, or their staff assisting them, have been obstructed by IPSA—by its bureaucratic processes, failure to answer the telephone and the 1,001 things to which Members have referred—in terms of the severe loss of time while dealing with the authority and its procedures. Indeed, my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor, in his House magazine article on 8 November, said of IPSA:

“It actively obstructs Members in their efforts to represent the people who elect them,”

and he was absolutely correct.

I am in no doubt that this issue—the relationship between IPSA and parliamentary privilege—should be brought before the Standards and Privileges Committee. As the House knows, under current procedures, which in my view are outdated and urgently need to be reformed, the only way in which an individual Member can put a complaint about a breach of privilege in front of that Committee is by means of making a precedence motion application to Mr Speaker. Most right hon. and hon. Members know that I have made such an application because there is no doubt whatever in my mind that many Members are being materially obstructed in the performance of their parliamentary duties by IPSA, but my application was, sadly, unsuccessful.

I hope that right hon. and hon. Members in all parts of the House will not be deterred by the fate of my application; I hope that other Members will consider making an application to Mr Speaker; and I very much hope that their persuasions in relation to Mr Speaker on this issue are superior to my own.

[Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. In view of the tragic news from Zurich and the sounds of celebration being carried on the chill eastward winds from Russia, has any approach been made to you, Sir, or to your office to disseminate that sad information throughout the Palace?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

The country is suffering sub-zero temperatures, towns and villages are being cut off, some people are isolated, airports are being closed, and I was wondering what piece of news could depress me more. I was wondering also which Member could bring that news to me, and I am not surprised that it is Mr Pound.

I am sure the whole House wishes Russia well in holding the World cup and to send its thanks and gratitude to the presentation team of the United Kingdom, with His Royal Highness Prince William, the Prime Minister, David Beckham and others. They did as best as they possibly could, and we are all somewhat depressed that football is not yet coming home, but we look forward to the day when it does. This is clearly not a point of order for the House, though.

[Andrew Bridgen]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I point out to the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) that if he were slightly more generous with taking interventions, there would not be the number of comments from a sedentary position to which he objects so vehemently.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

That sounds to me like a continuation of the debate.

16:00

[Paul Murphy (Torfaen) (Lab)]

May I add my disappointment, Mr Deputy Speaker, as another Welshman, over England’s bid and congratulate those who put it forward?

I congratulate the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie), whose speech was measured, informed and worthy of the best traditions of this House of Commons. It is appropriate that we discuss this matter, because it is six or seven months since the general election and since IPSA took over its duties. I am not the only one who thinks it appropriate; IPSA thinks so as well. It has embarked on its own review of how the system has worked over the past six months and how it can be improved. There is no doubt in my mind that no hon. Member thinks that we should go back to the old system or that there should not be an independent body to oversee the system. I agree with the independence of the body and that we should not go back to the discredited system of old.

[Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab)]

As a new Member, I think I am right in saying that one benefit of the old system was that when a newly elected Member took on staff who had previously worked for an MP, it counted as continuous employment. One of my caseworkers previously worked for the former Member of Parliament for Leicester West. He was recently denied statutory paternity pay, which I wanted to grant him because he had worked for the Member of Parliament for Leicester West for two years. He had not changed his job, but his employer had changed. Unfortunately, he was told that he was not eligible. Indeed, somebody in IPSA signed above my name as the employer to say that he was not entitled to statutory paternity pay. Continuous service is one element of the old system that would be of benefit.

[Paul Murphy]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. I hope that her comments and those of all hon. Members who take part in the debate are noted seriously by IPSA. I am sure that it is watching proceedings and will read Hansard.

It is important for IPSA to understand what this debate is about. First, it is about ensuring that IPSA’s operation is cost-effective, because we have a duty as the House of Commons to the taxpayers of this country to ensure that it is cost-effective. Secondly, it is about ensuring that the body is working properly. Undoubtedly, there are areas in which it is not doing so. Thirdly, and most significantly to Members of Parliament, it is about ensuring that our constituents are receiving the best possible service from us.

The area of office costs illustrates my point well. My predecessor entered the House of Commons in 1958. I took over in 1987, until which point no Member of Parliament representing the old Pontypool seat had had a constituency office. That was not unusual. Constituency after constituency did not have an office occupied by the Member of Parliament. I have no doubt that if, almost 24 years on, I decided to close down the office, my constituents would disagree violently. People in every constituency expect their Member of Parliament to have a constituency base with a caseworker, where they can go to talk about their problems.

I agree with the hon. Member for North Thanet (Mr Gale) that there is a considerable difference between an MP who uses the parliamentary estate as his or her main office and one whose main office is in the constituency. The biggest change that we should make is to disentangle office expenses from personal expenses, because an office expense is not a personal one. That matter is causing considerable difficulties for Members and I believe that IPSA is beginning to understand that. It is beginning to change its policy on that. For instance, as Members will know, office rent can now be paid directly by IPSA and we can use the travel or credit card that IPSA supplies to pay certain bills. I do not see for one second why that should not be taken even further. Personally, I do not want to handle any money at all to do with my constituency office, and I believe that my constituents would agree with that policy.

[Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)]

I have to disabuse my right hon. Friend of the idea that IPSA can handle treating personal expenses and office expenses differently. When I asked IPSA to reimburse my expenses for living in London to my personal account and to put my claims for my office into an office cost account, which I have run for the past 18 years, it said that it could not handle two bank accounts at the same time. It could pay all the money into my personal account or all of it into my office account, but it could not separate the payments. The system is terrible and not geared up to deal with the reality of an MP’s life.

[Paul Murphy]

The result, of course, is that the service that we provide our constituents becomes less and less effective. There is no reason in this wide world why the old system of ensuring that personal expenses are separate from office expenses should be taken over by IPSA. Its starting that process seems to me to underline the fact that it has accepted the principle that they are different.

[George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the expenses scandal represented a deep crisis of trust writ large in our political establishment? The establishment of IPSA as an institution is rooted in that distrust and reflects it. As a new Member, I find myself approaching it with trepidation as if it were there to catch me out rather than help.

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the system would be cheaper, better and more trust-nurturing if instead of monitoring every single claim, IPSA assumed that MPs were honest and just carried out occasional, random checks without warning, as is done across so many areas of public life? If anyone were found to be cheating, IPSA would punish them, rather than assuming that everybody was cheating and spending millions of pounds of public money on that basis.

[Paul Murphy]

The hon. Gentleman is right in the first instance. There is and was a great need for public trust in our expenses system, as that has obviously been lost in the past year or so. However, that is not in any way contradicted by the need to improve how IPSA works. It is so important that there should be transparency, accountability and proper checking on all the claims. Today’s newspaper revelations about what Members have claimed indicate that people are looking at the details online, and they can examine the hon. Gentleman’s details and mine any day of the week. So there is transparency—of course there is—but the problem comes if a system is so bureaucratic, costly and difficult to administer, and occasionally so unfair, that the people suffering are not necessarily the Members of Parliament, but those whom we represent. That is the basis of today’s debate.

[Mr Ian Davidson (Glasgow South West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the IPSA issues that is not transparent is the cost that it places on Members’ staff time? There is no mechanism through which the staff time taken up filling in IPSA forms, dealing with IPSA, phoning IPSA, waiting on the phone for IPSA to answer and waiting for IPSA to ring us back is quantified at all. That is a grossly underestimated cost, which is totally untransparent.

[Paul Murphy]

That is a valid point, which many Members have raised in the debate. On days when we have to deal with IPSA issues, we tend to find ourselves spending much more time on those than on constituents’ problems or on preparing for debates in the Chamber of the House of Commons.

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

Recently, there was an application for a job in my office from a candidate who described herself as “IPSA literate”. The system is so arcane, irrational and impenetrable that to be IPSA literate is equivalent to having about two honours degrees. Many of us have taken the line that to impose the job of dealing with IPSA on an employee would be regarded by any tribunal as cruel and inhuman treatment. Does my right hon. Friend not agree that if a commercial organisation—an internet bank, for example—ran a system such as IPSA’s, it would now be out of business because its system was so client-unfriendly?

[Paul Murphy]

Yes, indeed—my hon. Friend is absolutely right. Given that some years ago the then Prime Minister appointed me as Minister for digital inclusion, I thought that I had some knowledge of how to use computers, but I was defeated in having to deal with these issues. Most Members have to deal with this problem with a highly trained member of staff. I am not surprised that my hon. Friend was looking for someone who had those particular qualifications, although of course he is extremely good with computers and has been for many years.

I want to make two other points. First, the artificial distinction between core expenditure and other expenditure has to go, because it does not take into account the geographical variations from constituency to constituency in office rent, in particular, and other factors too. I hope that IPSA will look into that.

My final point relates to our staff. Not many Members have mentioned the men and women who work for us, either here in the House of Commons directly or, particularly, in our constituencies. They have been seriously disadvantaged over the past number of months, not least by the dramatic change in the pension position. It is now taken directly out of our allowances and not paid from the Commons itself. There is a very strong case that the trade unions and staff associations that represent the staff of Members of Parliament should be properly recognised and should have proper means of negotiating directly with IPSA to ensure that their conditions of service are not disadvantaged. This would not happen in the private sector or in the public sector outside this place, and it should not happen in the House of Commons.

The system must be transparent, accountable and independent, but it must also be cost-effective. Most importantly, it must be a system that allows us to represent our constituents effectively.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. As is self-evident, a lot of Members wish to catch my eye in this debate. I have therefore decided to introduce an eight-minute limit on Back-Bench speeches.

16:10

[Bob Russell (Colchester) (LD)]

It is important that IPSA has a voice in this Chamber. I am delighted that the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) took on that role, because, of 650 MPs I cannot think of a better person to be the devil’s advocate. I am a member of the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority. Unfortunately, despite my best endeavours over the past three months, the Committee has not met. I therefore congratulate the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) on securing this debate and colleagues on supporting it.

It is important that we praise IPSA’s front-line staff, because they, like us, are in this situation: we may be in different canoes, but we are in the same creek without paddles. We should also take on board the enormous debt of gratitude owed to our office staff. It has been estimated that the equivalent of 100 full-time MPs’ staff jobs are now devoted to dealing with IPSA affairs—it is as serious as that. The hon. Member for Bassetlaw estimated that more time is now being spent on this in his office, so even the leading advocate of IPSA acknowledges that fact.

Earlier, the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) made a very serious allegation about the head of communications at IPSA. I hope that by the end of the afternoon the Minister will be able to say whether there is any truth in the allegations. Interestingly, today’s Daily Mail and Daily Express had almost identical stories, which must have come from the same source. The Daily Mail at least had the good grace to say,

“Leaked figures from the…Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority”,

so it acknowledges they were leaked from IPSA. The same article belittles MPs for claiming expenses in August when we were on holiday. A good journalist is always at work and a good policeman is never off duty, and the same goes for an MP and their staff.

[Mr Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Bob Russell]

I would rather not, because of the time limit.

We must not say that all journalists are averse to finding out what is happening. Matthew Parris, in The Spectator of 6 November, says:

“Now to the facts. IPSA is careering stupidly out of control. Many MPs, particularly new young members, are close to despair, but dare not complain publicly because of the witch-hunting atmosphere that still prevails.”

He goes on to say:

“The salary of IPSA’s own director of communications (leading a team of three communications staff!)”—

who are they communicating with, other than leaking to the national media?—“

is more than £80,000”

a year.

There are stories of MPs enduring long waits on the hotline, and long delays when IPSA replies to letters and so on, to which Matthew Parris also refers. There have been approximately 150 parliamentary questions, including some from the hon. Member for Bassetlaw. IPSA is taking up more and more time. As an MP for 13 years, I have come to realise that the job is different from anything else, but IPSA thinks that MPs work Monday to Friday, 9 to 5.

IPSA did not bother to go to constituency offices. Very early on—long before any brown stuff hit any fans—I invited the chief executive to my constituency, because I thought it would help him to know what goes on. There is a do-down-MPs culture at the top of IPSA. I do not include the front-line staff because I think that, like us, they are doing a grand job. I cannot think of any other description for that culture, and frankly, I no longer care—I have gone way past the stage of caring—what the national media may or may not say about me and my expenses. My conscience is clear. I know that like just about every other MP, for the past 13 years, my wife and I have subsidised my work as an MP. The second homes thing caused a major problem for me like it did for others because of inattention to form-filling, if I can use that phrase. That is a world of difference away from how we are now being treated. Matthew Parris finished his article in The Specator by saying:

“It is left, I would argue, to Fleet Street’s Westminster and Whitehall journalists and commentators and to political scientists. They talk to MPs. They know it’s a big problem. Yet few have entered more than footnotes acknowledging it. Why are they silent?”

I doorstepped IPSA’s offices to find that they are the most luxurious offices to be found anywhere. There we have a problem, because IPSA tells me that I am claiming too much for my converted church hall. It has even told me that my claim for a photocopying machine could not be paid. I do not know of an MP who does not have a photocopier, but I was asked to prove that mine exists. I sent IPSA a photograph of it, but even that did not work—I still did not get payment for the machine. It was easier for me to open a new IPSA bank account and front load it with £5,000 rather than wait for IPSA to reimburse me. My wife and I paid that money. I do not know of a family doctor who has to pay the rent on his surgery or pay for medicine and claim the money back, but IPSA feels that MPs should be treated in that way.

I had cause to write to the chief executive of IPSA because it managed to fail to pay the national insurance of one member of my staff for three months. We all know that a break in NI contributions can have serious consequences. I eventually received a reply—unsigned—not from the chief executive, but from the deputy payroll manager. That shows the contempt in which MPs are held in the highest levels of IPSA.

I have tabled questions to find out how our Prime Minister and Cabinet colleagues are getting on with their IPSA claims, although I have managed to get only three answers back. Hon. Members will be pleased to know that the expenses of the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs are managed by the “Parliamentary Office”. The Secretary of State for Defence said that

“the information requested could be provided only at disproportionate cost.”—[Official Report, 19 November 2010; Vol. 518, c. 966W.]

The Prime Minister said:

“I am aware of concerns surrounding the expenses system and am keen to see improvements.”—[Official Report, 1 November 2010; Vol. 517, c. 495W.]

There we are—the Prime Minister wants “to see improvements”.

I cannot work these things out, so I asked my office at lunchtime to find out the latest thing about me on IPSA’s website. It said:

“IPSA Claims System—Web Site Error…A general website error occurred during your last performed action…System administrators have been notified. Please try again later.”

There is much more that I would like to say. Frankly, however, IPSA needs to get its act together. Even the Prime Minister says that there must be improvements, so I look to the Chamber to set the ball moving today. If the hon. Member for Bassetlaw wants a vote, let us have a vote.

16:20

[Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)]

One point arising from the speech made by the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) that I shall immediately take up is the need for IPSA’s offices to be on the parliamentary estate. I hope that my right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), who will lead for the Opposition, and the Minister will support that in their winding-up speeches.

It is always unfortunate when the House is debating its own affairs. I recall our 1996 debate on salaries. That was necessary and justified in the circumstances, but no one relishes discussing our internal matters.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) is not in a minority of one as someone who wants a proper, transparent system. He is also not alone in wishing to ensure that the abuses that occurred before never occur again. We are all of the same view. Indeed, in April and May 2007, although I do not recall that my hon. Friend was present, about five or six of us attended the Chamber strongly to object to and protest about a private Member’s Bill that would have exempted Parliament from freedom of information legislation. I was pleased that that Bill never became law. In addition, about 10 years ago, I was one of those who opposed the way in which the then Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards had her contract terminated—or at least not extended—and we had a pretty good idea why that happened.

I would be absolutely delighted if the alternative system brought in under IPSA was doing its job, helping Members, ensuring that everything was transparent and above board, and operating so that abuses could not occur. However, the fact of the matter, as the debate has demonstrated, is that that has not happened—it is the opposite in many respects. The manner in which IPSA was introduced and started its work was, in many ways, intended to teach us a lesson, but I believe that teaching us a lesson is a matter not for IPSA, but for the electorate. Moreover, we saw in May a large number of new Members—more than a third of the House. Surely new Members did not need any lessons about abuses because they were not here at the time.

[Jo Swinson (East Dunbartonshire) (LD)]

I also remember—albeit from the other side of the House—opposing the Bill to exempt MPs from freedom of information legislation, which thankfully never became law. I understand the hon. Gentleman’s point that IPSA needs to do better. Indeed, those of us who would have liked to support the amendment tabled by the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) accept that point. However, does the hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) agree that this is an issue of trust? The public lost trust in the MPs’ expenses system entirely. If we were to vote today to legislate to change IPSA, if we do not like what it is doing, such a threat would do nothing to rebuild the trust that we need the public to have.

[Mr Winnick]

I hope that I will have time to deal with the valid point that the hon. Lady makes. I remember her joining us to oppose the Bill that would have exempted Parliament from freedom of information legislation. At that time, those of us who opposed the Bill did not get much support from Government and Opposition Front Benchers, but be that as it may.

If it was difficult for those returning to the House after the election to deal with IPSA, it must have been an outright nightmare for new Members trying to sort out their constituency offices, their staff and their rented residential accommodation, either in London or in their constituency. IPSA in no way wished to be in a position to help. It had a helpline, but if ever there was an anti-helpline, that was it. We could not get through to it. Even now, it is difficult, but it was certainly so at that time. And even if we managed to get through to the helpline, the person who answered the phone—whom I do not blame—made it perfectly clear that he did not have the authority to give us the necessary information. I had some experience of that myself.

I entirely accept the point made by the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson) that the abuses that occurred did tremendous damage to Parliament. Of course they did. Some Members abused the system in such a way as to enrich themselves without caring at all about the reputation of Parliament. They were obviously working on the assumption that none of it would come out. As I said earlier, there is no question but that we need to ensure that that does not happen again. Of course the system has to be transparent and honest, and I only wish that IPSA was doing the job that I would like it to do.

I employ staff to assist me in carrying out my duties as a Member of Parliament. I do not believe that I am employing them to process my claims. Why should a member of staff be involved in that? That is not a matter of confidentiality; far from it. I want all the information to come out as quickly as possible. It can go on any website as soon as possible; I have absolutely nothing to hide, and I am sure that that applies to other hon. Members as well. But it is not the job of the staff to be involved in processing my claims. It so happens that I might be guilty of this, although I was not aware that there was a great issue at the election as to whether I would be able to process the electronic devices involved. It so happens that I cannot do so, so there is no alternative but to have assistance. But why can we not submit our claims on paper, as we did previously? I used to submit my claims almost religiously near the end of each month, and I would always enclose the relevant documentation. I would not have expected the old Fees Office to receive my claim without it. Now, everything is separate. The claim is processed and the documentation is sent on accordingly.

Then there is the question of the word “expenses”. The general public might feel that we can claim expenses of £40 or £50, and perhaps a cab fare—not that we are entitled to claim it—or a meal here and there, but there are very large sums involved for those of us who are not rich. My hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw is not alone in not having inherited wealth. Indeed, I am not aware of many Labour Members who have done so, and I imagine that a good number of Government Members have not inherited wealth either. The sums involved—utility bills, office rent and so on—mount up to a considerable sum for those of us who do not have substantial wealth. That is all the more reason why, in some instances at least, those expenses should be paid directly by IPSA, once it is satisfied that all the documentation is in order. If everything has been checked and double checked, and IPSA is happy with the documentation, there is no reason why it should not pay those expenses directly.

The hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire said that, from the public’s point of view, it would look very bad if we agreed to abolish IPSA. I think that, to a large extent, the answer lies with IPSA. It should be willing to listen, and to recognise that the criticism is valid and legitimate, that we are not on the make, and that we are not crooks and not dishonest. If IPSA recognises that what we are saying today is legitimate and valid, and that there is a need for flexibility and a need to look again at these matters—this does not apply so much to me, at my age, but it is important for Members with young families—I do not believe that it will be necessary to change IPSA as such. However, if it continues to remain obstinate and remote, I am afraid that the time might well come in this Parliament when Members will have no alternative but to conclude that new arrangements should be made, and that they should be transparent, certainly, but different from what they are now.

16:29

[Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick), who made a fair and balanced speech. I agree with pretty much everything he said.

I want to make two brief points, the first of which is about time. I have had to cancel meetings with constituents to spend more time dealing with IPSA, and I do not think that that can be right. The IPSA system and website are so cumbersome that they take far too long to operate, which has a direct effect on the time available to look after constituents. That cannot have been Parliament’s intention. When IPSA gets things wrong, as it does, one then has to spend extra time explaining why it has got things wrong.

My hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) said that this debate was not about personal inconveniences, and I agree with him—it is about much broader issues. I do not want to dwell on a personal inconvenience, but I wanted to raise one example because I think that it illustrates the nature of the problem. I recently discovered that IPSA has refused to pay my constituency office telephone bill. I have not met anyone who thinks that is right, but I resent having to spend time investigating it and explaining to IPSA that my constituency office telephone bill is an entirely legitimate cost. So far, I have been too busy to do that. I fear that when I eventually find time to do it, IPSA will tell me that my complaint is now outside some arbitrary time limit that it has set. It should not be necessary to waste time explaining how absurd that is, so I shall move on to my second point, which is about value for money.

Immediately after the debate on IPSA in Westminster Hall some months ago, I was approached in the corridor by a representative of a major card payments company. In conversation with him, I said, “Wouldn’t it be great if we could have a system whereby if we paid for something such as a toner cartridge for the office printer we knew within 24 hours or so it would be published on the internet so that everyone could see it?” He replied, “It wouldn't take 24 hours. We could do it almost instantly, within a few seconds.” Of course, that would be much cheaper than the current system. That would suit me fine and I think it would suit my constituents, who have a right to know how public money is used. I am in favour of complete transparency about where public money is spent. Indeed, I have spent my entire time in this House—the past nine years—trying to do my best on the Public Accounts Committee to defend the proper use of public money.

Instead of such a simple plan, we have this extraordinary situation where the arrangements are staggeringly expensive—they cost about £10,000 per MP to administrate—yet they offer satisfaction neither to members of the public, who quite rightly want to know how their money is spent, nor to MPs, who are trying to do a job.

This morning, IPSA has protested that it cannot publish receipts because it would be too expensive, but it should be expected to do more—much more—for less money. Publication of all the required information should happen constantly in real time or near real time. It would be cheaper than what IPSA does now and, technically, it would be easy enough to do.

I ran my own business 10 years ago. I sent electronic invoices to my clients and received payment from them electronically, and payment systems have moved on considerably since then. I do not believe that at present IPSA uses public money economically, effectively or efficiently, so I am pleased to support the motion, particularly because I know that the proposals made by my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor would save over £4 million per year of public money.

16:29

[Michael Connarty (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (Lab)]

I welcome the sea change from a system that was clearly not transparent as far as the public were concerned. It was clear that the public thought that the system we had before contained hidden powers for Members of Parliament and a lack of transparency. The electorate were right to demand a redefinition of what we were allowed to spend their taxes on. I have no regrets about all the things for which expenses were available before but have now been withdrawn. It would be wrong of us to think that the public did not demand changes—and they got changes. I regard it as important that we have an independent, transparent system, controlled and reconciled by a body outwith the control of MPs. That is why I cannot vote for the motion.

However, I disliked the witch hunting that went on during the process of change. It distorted the public’s view, and IPSA is a system based partly on what is acceptable to the tabloid journalists and The Daily Telegraph, as well as to the few hotheads—only a few dozen in my constituency—who demanded that we should pay everything out of our salaries and sleep on a park bench. As I have said again and again, it is a punishment system, although IPSA did not mean it to be.

I have to be quite honest that I disliked the windbaggery at the time, of which we have heard some more today, with people playing to the redtops and going for populism rather than common sense in their speeches. That is not useful to any of us. I am sad to say that I could not have supported the amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) if it had been selected, because he is doing it again. It mentions apologising unreservedly to the British people—should the 300 new Members vote for that? It suggests that the House trusts IPSA, but I do not trust it. I think IPSA is an incompetent system, put together by people on a board in which I have no confidence, under a chairman who I do not believe understands, or has even tried to understand, what is required. I told the gentleman that to his face, and I have not been persuaded to change my opinion.

If any Member says that IPSA is not interfering with their task of working for their constituents and constituency, either they are not getting reimbursed, they are getting a member of their staff to do the work for them or they are working longer hours. I have an ongoing case in my constituency of a man of 53 who buried his 30-year-old son, who developed pneumonia and left behind four children. That man is an unemployed bricklayer in the middle of a recession that is particularly affecting the building industry. He is my priority, so I chose to deal with his case rather than to start claiming back some of the road travel expenses that I have never claimed since the day that IPSA came into being. I do the same every time—I give priority to my constituency work load and what my constituents need, and I keep putting off claims.

Of course, IPSA’s 90-day rule means that many claims for such legitimate expenses will be denied me, as the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir John Stanley), who travels two hours to the House every day, told us earlier. It has made an arbitrary rule that after 90 days, it does not matter what we have spent money on, we cannot get it back. Another arbitrary rule is that if we forget to send the paperwork within seven days of an online claim, it can deny us the payments. That has nothing to do with the legitimate claims and expenditure of Members of Parliament.

Now is the correct time to have this debate, which is not about having a whinge at IPSA. It has said from the beginning that there will be a six-month review, and that it will improve the system. My contention, as I said to Sir Ian Kennedy when he came to speak to the Scottish Labour group, is that just as a camel is a horse designed by a committee, IPSA’s system was supposed to be a horse but is in fact a donkey. It was designed by people who were not competent to design it or they met a man, or maybe even a woman, of shifty personal background, who sold them a system that is inadequate and yet much more tortuous.

My son is a senior systems solutions architect for Hitachi. He was awarded the Hitachi systems engineer of the year award for the Association of Southeast Asian Nations countries last year. He laughs like a drain every time I tell him about our online claim system, which we have to back up like some sort of petty cost clerk, by putting together all the paperwork and sending it all in for somebody to check.

I tell my son that two companies are involved—one in Manchester, which is getting a good old pay-off for the online system, and a wedge of people up on Victoria road in rather palatial circumstances who are supposedly checking every single invoice that comes through, and who boast about having turned down so many claims from Members that are in fact legitimate. We have heard that they have even refused claims for people’s offices or not paid national insurance. That is not a system that is working efficiently, but it is costing the Government, and the people through their taxes, a lot of money.

I have had a number of useful conversations with the acting chief executive. I always worry about acting chief executives—are they afraid that if they recommend radical change they could be sacked? He is still acting chief executive, yet he seemed to respond well to everything I said to him.

I have experience of running a claims system as a leader of a council for 10 years. We used a paper system, rather than an online and a paper system. I also have experience of using the system in the Scottish Parliament. At the moment, I get all the bills for my office, which I share with my MSP, paid directly out of the allowances of the MSP and they then send me a bill from the Scottish Parliament and I pay it back to them. That arrangement is much quicker, much more efficient and much more transparent. There has been a suggestion that we move to a system of direct payment. Sadly, I think that a Member who spoke earlier was wrong, because IPSA has moved only slightly in the direction of saying that it will directly pay contracted regular payments, for example, our office rent and our office council tax. IPSA has also offered to do this for our second homes allowance, but—

[Jo Swinson]

rose—

[Michael Connarty]

I am sorry, but I do not have time to give way. IPSA cannot handle the idea that we might want to claim less back than we pay or that we also have regular non-contracted payments that vary, such as service charges for flats. IPSA can handle only very limited things. What it cannot do is handle a system where we send it the invoice, it verifies that it is legitimate, it pays it and then deducts it from our allowances, because IPSA is against an allowance system in principle. IPSA wants a system that is so stupid that we have to make the claims.

IPSA has done something bizarre in terms of transparency by saying that it will pay on invoices: we send it an invoice before we pay it, it will send us the money and then we have to remember to pay the invoice. I predict that there will be tragedies in that way; people will lose invoices and will fail to pay them. If we pay them by credit card, where do we get the receipt to prove that we have paid?

The final thing that I want to talk about is the travel card. We get a paper version where we could clearly fill in what it is for and sign it at the bottom, as we used to do. We could then attach to it any receipts that are not coming from the travel office—the travel office will send IPSA every receipt directly—and so all of my flights, my train journeys and all my use of the Heathrow express would be covered. But IPSA does not want to know about that; we still have to go through a system of having this all put online, then following up on the cost part, assembling all the bits of paper and sending everything in. IPSA is not fit for purpose and it is costing us a lot of money. It is not time to take all the power back to MPs, but it is time to reform it properly.

16:42

[Mr Charles Walker (Broxbourne) (Con)]

I am a sinner and I embrace sin. In the previous Parliament, I used the expenses system almost to its fullest. So I am no angel and I accept that I have to take my share of responsibility for what went before—but that is then and this is now. I fully appreciate that IPSA was set an impossible task by this Chamber in July 2009. We legislated in haste and are now repenting at leisure. The Chancellor said last week that “I told you so” is not a policy, but in July 2009 I did say that we were going to regret the haste with which we were introducing the plans for IPSA and we are now regretting them bitterly. The “problem” we have in this place—it is part of its richness and is not necessarily a problem—is that all 650 individuals do their jobs differently, and trying to shoehorn them into a one-size-fits-all solution was always going to end in tears.

I fully appreciate and acknowledge the public anger at what went before, because it was unforgivable. However, we should recall that by July/August 2009 the Fees Office had got its act together and for that final nine months things improved dramatically. They improved at an annual cost to the taxpayer of £2 million a year. That is a significant sum, but it is not as significant as the £6.5 million a year that IPSA is costing the taxpayer. This must not be about taking revenge on Members of Parliament; it must be about value for money. In six months, IPSA will publish its first year’s figures and they may well show that the cost to this country of Members of Parliament has reduced. However, we should treat those figures with great caution, because if the cost to this country has gone down because Members of Parliament are not claiming legitimate expenses or are funding them out of their own pockets, that is no victory at all.

Over the past decade we have talked about improving the diversity of representation in this place—diversity of race, creed and colour—and we have moved forward immensely. However, there is no diversity if everyone here ends up being rich—wealthy; having family money or independent means. Of course, the make-up of this Chamber is not going to change overnight—it is not going to change at the next general election—but over time it will change. This place will become the preserve of the better-off, whether they sit on the Government Benches or the Opposition Benches. There are many things to recommend the US political model, but one thing that does not recommend it is the fact that most people who sit there have significant private means.

Let us talk further about diversity, because we now have a great diversity of ages here. We have people in their 20s and one person in their 80s. That is healthy. People of all age groups need to be represented in this place, but how can we have a diverse system when some Members—perhaps in their late 60s or 70s—are expected to travel an hour and a half to two hours home every night? We deposit them on a platform somewhere in the far-flung parts of the home counties at midnight. That is not going to encourage diversity. It will not encourage women to come to this place either, if we expect them to go home at midnight. They have not been out for a night on the town; they have been working on behalf of their constituents.

I did a quick and dirty survey of Conservative Members of Parliament, to which I received 173 responses. I want to share the following five, anonymous, responses with the House:

“I’m too scared to claim”;

“IPSA shows no interest or desire to keep families together”;

“Regular nights spent sleeping on the office floor”;

“IPSA is anti-family and favours richer Members”;

and:

“People won’t claim and only wealthy people will come here as MPs”.

Is that really what we want a 21st-century democracy in this country to look like? Do we really want Members of Parliament sleeping on their floors? Do we really want young parents separated from their children for huge amounts of time? Do we really want people to be paying legitimate expenses out of their own pockets, or the pockets of their partners or parents? That is simply a ridiculous place to be.

I have to say that I was disappointed in The Times newspaper yesterday. I have a great amount of time for The Times. I read it avidly and I thought that its reporting of the expenses scandal was fair and balanced. However, when it says in a headline: “MPs are already flouting new rules on expenses”, it really does worsen the situation, deteriorating it even further. The article continued:

“The list of rejected claims…reveals how MPs were caught submitting duplicate claims, failed to provide sufficient documentary evidence to back up their demands and, in dozens of cases, flouted the new rules. One MP was refused £338 for a shredder”.

That was mentioned by the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd). Since becoming a Member of Parliament, I have dealt with cases that involved murder, rape and child abuse, and my God, we had better be shredding that stuff! As much as I respect The Times as a newspaper, if it wants to be responsible for heralding in the age of the rich, privileged Member of Parliament, what I have quoted is just the sort of stuff that will bring that about.

I want to say one more thing—this is not an attack on the Whips Office, but a statement of fact. Members have heard me talk repeatedly in this place about the creeping power of the Executive, and I will say this: if we worsen the financial situation of Back Benchers, we will inevitably increase the power of the Executive, because the attraction of becoming a Minister will be even greater. It will not just be about the ministerial car or the red box; it will start being about the money as well.

If the expenses scandal taught us anything, it was that what our constituents want most is independent-minded Members of Parliament who do what they say and mean what they say. I have grave concerns about IPSA and what it is doing to this place. Things must change because if they do not we, our democracy and our constituents will all be worse off.

16:50

[Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)]

I am delighted to follow the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker), who made an extraordinary speech—it was the right speech to make today. I say that advisedly because this issue unites hon. Members across the Floor of the House, but not in some crusade against the idea of an independent parliamentary standards authority and least of all against a recognition that some of what happened in the previous Parliament was gross and unacceptable. I hope that that view is shared universally across the House.

The hon. Member for Broxbourne put his finger on the main point: this is about the future. I hope that IPSA will listen to this point. We have heard many legitimate grumbles by our colleagues today about the difficulties they have had with IPSA and it is right and proper that they should be heard. To be fair, I think that IPSA has been steadily improving its act, but there are still too many problems with the system, as we have heard. The critical issue is the kind of Parliament we will create if we do not reform the system—I know that was the motivation for the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) in securing the debate and making his comments—and it is critical that the most senior people in IPSA, from the board to its senior managers, listen carefully to what is valid in the debate.

The right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) made the point that when we hear about items such as shredders being refused, it brings the system into disrepute. I have had a shredder in my office for many years—it is pre-IPSA and long-paid for—and I use it to shred documents of the kind that the hon. Member for Broxbourne mentioned because I simply do not want to risk that paperwork getting into the public domain. That is a legitimate use of the money that MPs offices are provided because it protects and serves constituents—that is an important point to make. However, I would forgo that shredder if that were the only problem. The important test is what kind of House this will be in future if it is not family-friendly for people with young families and if family travel goes out of the window when children pass an arbitrary age because of a rule imposed from goodness knows where. It then becomes difficult to accommodate a family unless the individual concerned has personal wealth.

[Malcolm Bruce (Gordon) (LD)]

Does the hon. Gentleman think it odd that IPSA wrote to tell me —presumably, it also wrote to other Members—that I could bring my three children to London and claim expenses for 15 journeys a year but that I could not claim for my wife once? I wonder whether I should send the children around to IPSA to look after while I am working.

[Tony Lloyd]

Yes, it is odd. These issues are odd and arbitrary and IPSA must recognise that the system needs reform. It has begun to talk about the reform process so it is reasonable for the House to debate the kind of reform we need. If IPSA is engaged in a process, we should be part of the dialogue about how to move it on, and the experiences we have been hearing about show the direction that IPSA must take.

I want to mention one or two other areas where reform is needed. High on the list of priorities for all Members are matters relating to how people move through different lifestyles and ages. Some people will enter the House at a young age, perhaps with young families, while others will be older, but all will have different needs and different requirements. A proper Parliament should be geared up to accommodate Members of different backgrounds and needs at different stages of life. That ought to be automatic, but it is not so now. We need change there.

We need change in other areas that make it difficult for us to operate as Members of Parliament. For example, some of the arbitrary rules on the office cost ceiling might make sense in the lowest-cost parts of the country, but make no sense in large parts of London and even in constituencies such as mine. My constituency is actually one of the poorest in Britain, but its benchmark office costs are those for the city of Manchester. IPSA has to take those things seriously if it is to allow Members to do their jobs.

The issue of travel is fundamental. In virtually all the years I have been a Member, in all my different roles—whether on the Government Front Bench, the Opposition Front Bench or the Back Benches—it has been accepted that if a Member needs to travel on parliamentary business, their needs will be met, if the travel is legitimate. For Ministers that is automatic, and senior Opposition figures have it provided through Short money, but as we move down the political food chain—if that is the right terminology—that now ceases to be the case.

You know, Mr Deputy Speaker, that under the present rules, some travel outside a Member’s constituency will be paid for, while other things will be refused. My right hon. Friend the Member for Rother Valley (Mr Barron) pointed out to me that, as somebody who has spent the last 27 years in Parliament actively engaged on health matters, were he to travel from his south Yorkshire constituency to, for example, the Christie hospital in south Manchester, he would not necessarily be able to claim it as a legitimate cost, even though anybody with half a view of his work over the years would recognise it as important and fundamental to what he does.

[Mr Kevin Barron (Rother Valley) (Lab)]

I travelled from my home in south Yorkshire to Huddersfield university a few Fridays ago, as the chair of the all-party group on pharmacy, to talk to 300 pharmacy students about pharmacy and how Parliament operates. I thought that was a legitimate claim, but it has now been denied. IPSA needs to look at these things, although I agree that it is improving in respect of some expenses claims.

[Tony Lloyd]

The sad thing is that, in refusing what most people would consider a common-sense, legitimate claim, it will now show as one of those wicked claims that IPSA has refused. That is how ludicrous the situation has become.

We can, of course, spend a lot of time apologising for what happened in the past. Individuals, and the House as a whole, had to go through that painful process. Those of us who were here then definitely went through it, but a third of the House consists of new Members who have no reason to apologise. However, they do have a need to function as proper Members of Parliament. Those who come in new at the next general election will have the same need to operate as functioning Members whose legitimate expenses are paid. That is the big test not for the House, but for IPSA in its review process, which is about to take place. IPSA has to get this right, not for my sake or the sake of the shredder in my office—I will give it back and buy my own, if that is the test—but to ensure that we have a Parliament that can do the work that the public do not necessarily always expect us to do, but which they need us to do.

16:59

[Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)]

Parliament should create its own website, on which any Member of Parliament with a legitimate claim refused by IPSA could post it, along with an explanation, and once a week, IPSA should explain to its board, and put on the website, the reason it turned down certain claims. That way we could say in public, “This is the reason we put in the claim.” We could put on the public record the fact that it was not accepted, and then IPSA could explain why it did not accept the shredder, the visit to the pharmacy students or whatever.

Spouses cannot now get their trips to constituencies paid for. Once, when I was abroad on overseas duties, and when representing my first constituency, I asked my wife if she would take my advice session. She did. She has a master’s degree in social administration and is a psychiatric social worker. She is competent in all such matters. She said that I was not trained sufficiently to do the sort of work that I was being asked to do, and she may have been right: that may be one reason why she became a Member of Parliament herself.

If I asked a member of staff to take charge of an advice session, IPSA would pay. If I ask someone who could do it just as well—someone with 21 years’ experience in the House of Commons—IPSA will not pay. That strikes me as an odd position to have arisen. However, I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) that the individual members of staff at IPSA are good people. I have been to see them. The first time I visited their building I was going to the Stag brewery, where Watney’s was making Red Barrel. The parties were better then.

I do not want to expose IPSA to scorn, but there are some things that I think stop us being serious for just a moment. We all know that when a claim has been prepared, we have to go through hoops to get a barcode. Once we have the barcode, we must print out a sheet of paper. It takes eight separate key presses to proceed from the stage of having the barcode in front of us to the stage of having a printed piece of paper in our hands. I do not believe that a single member of IPSA has been through that process, because anyone who had would have said, “This is absolutely wrong.”

Once there is a hard copy of the receipt and the printed-out barcode sheet arrives with IPSA, what happens? I will give the House one guess. A member of IPSA’s staff generates another barcode to put on the bits of paper. There is a perfectly rational reason for that, but if all the members of staff and Members of Parliament were told that that is what happens next, they would say that it was unbelievable.

IPSA sometimes gets things wrong. We can all make honest mistakes: indeed, some of our colleagues who were exposed to public scorn made honest mistakes. When my PA wanted to arrange maternity cover and was going to telephone IPSA to ask how it would be arranged, I instructed her not to hold on for more than 45 minutes each time she did not receive an answer. That happened three times. IPSA tells me that, on average, its staff answer the phone in less than 10 minutes. When IPSA did respond, it said that payment for maternity cover would come out of the contingency fund, and both my PA and I would have to sign a statement that what was happening was both unavoidable and unexpected!

That was an honest mistake, and I am not criticising IPSA for it. What I am saying is that MPs who do not even make an honest mistake, but make an honest submission of a claim for a shredder or for a journey that is perfectly acceptable, are potentially exposed to what we read about in The Times yesterday, and to much more excitement after that.

I have shown IPSA people what happens when I log on to deal with a small self-invested pension pot: it takes me about 15 seconds to log on and be able to move money around. I have shown IPSA what happens when I engage in online banking: it takes about 25 seconds to log on and be able to make payments to people, for instance. I have explained to IPSA—I think that it understands this, and I am sure that the review will lead to even more improvements—that when virtually every Member of Parliament is buying office supplies from the same supplier, I do not understand why I should be expected to work out from the statement I receive from the firm, with invoices attached, which supplies I paid for last month, which supplies I am trying to pay for now, which supplies I have claimed for, and so forth. I do not think that anyone should have allowed such a rigmarole to develop.

In all my work—when I was working for the British Steel Corporation, a large organisation, and in my last job, when I was putting neon lights outside theatres and cinemas in the west end with 25 colleagues—I do not think that I have encountered any procedure that has been so demanding of both time and precision as the current expenses system.

[Mr Gale]

Can my hon. Friend possibly explain why IPSA is incapable of paying a bill directly and insists that it should go through a Member’s bank account, given that, at a third of the cost, the old Fees Office was able to pay literally any bill directly to the supplier?

[Peter Bottomley]

I normally reply “Yes” to my hon. Friend, but in this instance the answer is, “No, I cannot.” However, I think it comes down to the fact that members of the authority did not work their own way through the system, and did not talk to, say, a random selection of 10 Members of Parliament to ask what happens.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir John Stanley) mentioned the problems with the IPSA drop-down menu, which does not include an option for us to go to our constituency to attend on a constituent or to attend some official function there. We are supposed to start at our constituency home or our constituency office. As it happens, I have a home in my constituency, but not so far as IPSA is concerned, because it is not paid for from public funds at all. There is an office of my association, which is not where I hold by advice sessions or other events, so I have the same problem as my right hon. Friend.

I have spoken to IPSA about the problem and I think it has a solution, but the problem should not arise. In the same way, we are told to find the cheapest way of going on journeys by train. Again, this is not the heaviest point to be made, but it is worth making. I had to go to the headquarters of the Sussex police in Lewes, outside my constituency, with a constituent who had wrongly been accused of rape. I found that I could go there and back for £5 return, so long as I booked in advance.

I said to IPSA, “The money doesn’t really matter. It’s not the principle, it’s not the money, it’s a matter of interest. If the meeting overruns, or the senior police officer cancels the meeting and books it on another day, will you please pay me back the £2.50 if I have to take another train back or the £5 if I don’t go at all?” The answers that I got were delphic. IPSA was not quite saying no and it was not quite saying yes. It is the sort of question that we ought to be able to put and ask, “What is the answer?”

As another example—this is the way I work—my local association provides a walk-in service for constituents, individuals, businesses or community groups. As a liaison with me, the association can set up meetings, photocopy documents, send them to me or speak to me on the phone. I am not employing the staff or renting the building. We have come to an agreement on what the rough cost is and made an arrangement at slightly below that. The cost is not a problem with IPSA. The problem is which budget should cover it. I intend to ask IPSA to relax the limits on the incidental expenses. That seems the sensible way to deal with it, rather than force it wrongly into office or staff expenses.

Such issues matter. Members are told that they must go back to their constituency or not claim for a home in their constituency if it is less than an hour by train, platform to platform. IPSA must revise that. My constituency is on the south coast. I have come in from King’s Cross and it has taken 40 minutes to get from the platform there to Westminster. The idea that a Member can then travel another 45 minutes—say, to the midlands—and expect to be useful the next day is fine if they start work at 2.30 when they come back. I pay tribute to my colleagues who are here at 8 am, or before, or shortly afterwards. Under IPSA’s conditions, they cannot do a proper day’s work as Members of Parliament.

I confirm the view of the hon. Member for Linlithgow and East Falkirk (Michael Connarty) who said that given a choice between doing expenses or helping a constituent, the duty is to help the constituent. When I was doing my expenses yesterday at 4 pm, expecting a two-hour break, a woman rang up. On 29 April her gas was turned off, and her new boiler might come next June. She has had to move out or would have got hypothermia. It took two hours to get the problem solved and next week she will have the boiler. I prefer to lose some of my own expenses because I came here to do good for other people, not to do good for myself.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. We will hear from the Front-Bench speakers next. They have agreed to show time restraint. The debate from the Back Benches will then resume.

17:08

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

I welcome the opportunity provided by the Backbench Business Committee to debate the operation of IPSA, courtesy of the effort shown by the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie). I do not propose to rehearse how we got here, as other hon. Members have done so, except to say that parts of the previous system did not bear close examination, nor did they command public support when they were unveiled to public view. The hon. Member for North Thanet (Mr Gale) summed it up well when he said that things went badly wrong.

Things had to change, and the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 was the means by which the system was changed. As the House has learned, transparency was the best way of dealing with the problems of the past and is the best way of doing things. Members know that all the expenditure that they incur will be seen and scrutinised by the public. When the public, our voters, see the cost of the phone calls, the office rent, the stationery, the train travel and the accommodation, which is published today by IPSA, they too will realise that this is about nothing more and nothing less than the tools that MPs need to do their job.

The first point that I want to make is that in debating changes to the system as a prelude to the review that IPSA is undertaking—changes that are definitely needed—we must preserve the principle of transparency, a point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) and many others, and we must uphold the principle of independent oversight. I gently say to my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) that nobody wants to overturn that, and nor should we.

[Mr Jenkin]

Will the right hon. Gentleman comment on the fact that IPSA has said it is not going to publish invoices and evidence of payment? Does he agree that it is slightly illogical to have a system based on transparency and evidence of payment if we do not then publish the evidence of payment, and that that recalls how we got into this mess in the first place?

[Hilary Benn]

I would make two points. First, an independent body is now looking at those receipts and making a judgment about whether they come within the purview of the rules, which is very different from what happened before. Secondly, there is a balance to be struck between the cost of publishing receipts—it would be very expensive—and total transparency. Since one of the themes of our debate has been the cost of IPSA as a whole, in offering a view, the House will, in the end, have to say to IPSA, “How do we wish to balance that?”

[Mr Bacon]

The right hon. Gentleman says there is a balance to be struck between cost and transparency, but in fact the reverse could be the case: total transparency through the right kind of card payment-based, web-based instant publishing system could be cheaper as well as more transparent.

[Hilary Benn]

I think there is a lot in what the hon. Gentleman says. This debate has produced many ideas and suggestions, and I hope IPSA will take them on board in deciding how the system might be changed.

We must also take into account that setting up IPSA was a very big task. We all acknowledge that there were bound to be teething problems, and hon. Members should recognise that a lot of hard work in a very short space of time has gone into establishing the organisation. I, for one, would simply want to say that in my experience all the IPSA staff I have met—I have visited the offices—and all the IPSA staff to whom I have spoken on the phone have been unfailingly helpful in trying to assist. The problem that brings us here today is clearly not the staff; it is the system itself—how it was designed and the ways in which it does not work.

If we ask Members, “Do you think IPSA is helping you to do your job,” which ought to be the real test, the clear answer we get—we have heard it today—is, “No, it is not.” It also seems that Members are not entirely sure that IPSA fully understands the work we do as Members of Parliament.

[Mr Adam Holloway (Gravesham) (Con)]

Members such as the saintly hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) have allowed the impression to be put about that expenses are, somehow, some sort of perk. In fact they are what we need in order to do our job. Before I entered the House, I worked for months, or years, with “Newsnight”, “World in Action”, “Panorama”, The Sunday Times and ITN, and what amazed me on arriving here was how many things that I needed to do my job had to be paid for from my own pocket, which was never the case when I worked in the media. I cannot think of any organisation that regularly expects one subset of its members to spend seven or eight hours at home every night on this issue. It is extraordinary.

[Hilary Benn]

The salaries of the staff who support us in our work are not by any reasonable definition an expense. In fairness to my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw, I do not think he was making that argument; that is an interpretation that others have sought to put on what has been said.

A number of issues have been identified both in this afternoon’s debate and elsewhere. The first is the expense of the whole system because of its complexity, the multiple checking, and the transaction cost to IPSA and Members of Parliament in trying to make it work. The second is the sheer amount of time it takes, in part because compared with the old system a lot of the inputting of data has been outsourced to Members of Parliament and their staff. The time taken in collecting, checking, clarifying, going online, copying and posting and so forth means MPs and their staff are spending too much time doing accounts, rather than holding the Government of the day—of whatever party—to account, which is what we are elected to this House to do. We know that some MPs do not claim back legitimate expenses because they are afraid of getting it wrong or because of the time it will take. Some also say they get contradictory advice, in that a claim might be accepted one week but not the next.

The third problem was the assumption at the beginning—we must all acknowledge that this is changing—that all MPs had a bottomless private pocket out of which they could pay bills before claiming the money back. They do not. Some people are still owed money, others have been overdrawn, and we should recognise that the situation is particularly difficult for new Members, who have additional costs because they are establishing offices for the first time.

Every one of us dislikes intensely the fact that the money is forced to go through our personal bank accounts. It should not, and that is another reason why the system has to change. The point has been made forcefully that we know of no other workplace where one would tell an employee—although we are not employees—to pay the rent or the photocopier bill out of their own resources, and then pay them back. That is why direct payment has to be the way forward.

The fourth problem is that the budgets set do not reflect in all cases the commitments that MPs already have, the work loads in their offices or the higher cost of renting offices in some parts of the country, some cities and some towns. One practical and simple step to help MPs would be to allow virement between the staffing, office rent and office costs budgets, because that would allow Members to make that judgment. The overall budget level needs to be looked at, because adding the 10% pension contribution has created a real problem. The argument was, “We have taken some other expenses out,” but I do not know many Members who claim them.

MPs who have been worried that they cannot meet their commitments to staff—the number of hours and so on—have been told that they can approach the contingencies fund. I hope that IPSA will in all cases, therefore, meet those costs out of contingencies, because that problem needs to be addressed.

We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester West (Liz Kendall) about the difficulties of trying to obtain paternity leave, and I know of problems with maternity leave, too. I echo what my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy) said about consulting staff and the unions. We should recognise the enormous contribution that our staff make in supporting us and in doing a job on behalf of our constituents.

Fifthly, we have heard about the impact on family life. The fundamental truth is that MPs have to live and work in two separate places, and we should not make it difficult for MPs, their partners or their children to do so. On the problem that my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester Central (Tony Lloyd) raised, the current rules are utterly inconsistent, because they only partly acknowledge family life, paying for some things but not others.

Sixthly, there are the problems that arise because of the definition of London. We have already heard some of those cases, including the commuting distance at unsocial hours because of the unpredictability of House business. That needs looking at.

There is also the problem of what is known as extended travel, including by Opposition Front Benchers, which is an issue for us now, given the outcome of the election. The Opposition get Short money to help meet the costs of research and support, as the current majority governing party got over the previous 13 years. In addition, the Fees Office used to pay extended travel for Opposition Front Benchers and others, but when IPSA arrived it said, “No, we’re not going to pay that any more.” That prevents Opposition Front Benchers from doing their job, travelling the country to talk to people, listen and bring that experience and voice back to the House.

Another point, which affects all hon. Members, is that if we look at the IPSA rules on extended travel, we get the impression that it sees us only as constituency MPs. That is incredibly important, because we are also parliamentarians, and, if a matter in which we have an interest comes before the House, the ability to travel to gain knowledge and understanding—to listen, which is what we need to do as Members—is important. It is important that IPSA changes that interpretation. I have written to the chief executive to make that point.

I shall make three other points in conclusion. First, one difficulty we are grappling with is that each MP is different, a point that has been forcefully made. The way in which we work is different, and a system that does not reflect that is a system that is not working. Secondly, all that has an impact on people who have become MPs or might be thinking of doing so, a point that the hon. Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker) made more eloquently than I can.

A battle was fought—the Osborne judgment has been referred to—and winning that £400 a year payment was a big step forward, so we should not go backwards now. We should remember that 19 years earlier Keir Hardie arrived in the House. As hon. Members will know, when he was spied and people looked at his clothes, they said, “Are you working on the roof?”, and he replied, “No, I’m working on the Floor.” We must not go back to the time when how much money we had determined whether we could undertake this job.

Thirdly, to be perfectly honest, I wish that we did not have to spend time debating what should be straightforward in any job, which is having the means to do the job. The fact that we are tells us that there is a problem that needs to be sorted out. That is why the review that IPSA is undertaking is an opportunity, just as this debate has been an opportunity for hon. Members to send a clear message.

I end by welcoming the fact that the chief executive, Andrew McDonald, has shown a willingness to engage in discussion about how things can change. I am confident that we can get change, but it needs to be the right change and it needs to happen soon.

17:20

[The Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office (Mr Mark Harper)]

Before I start, I want to thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, for your kind words about our 2018 bid team, who were dubbed “the three lions” by The Sun. I know that when the Prime Minister returns from Zurich, he will play close attention to this debate. He spoke about this matter earlier and will listen carefully to what Members have said.

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie), not just on securing the debate, but on the thoughtful tone in which he opened it. That has been reflected by all hon. Members who have spoken. This matter is not about us, but about our ability to do our job—serving our constituents and doing our parliamentary work, as the shadow Leader of the House said.

I want to touch on the story that was in The Times earlier this week, because it has been referred to by a number of right hon. and hon. Members in this debate and it was raised at business questions earlier today. I understand that the story was the result of a freedom of information request, rather than a leak. I do not usually find myself quoting Sir Ian Kennedy, the chairman of IPSA, but it is worth putting on the record his response to the unfair way in which The Times ran that story—he has not always been particularly kind about Members of Parliament. He said:

“We assess that MPs have been thoughtful and proper in making their claims. Where we have queried a claim, it has been the result of misunderstanding as people adapt to the new scheme.”

He made it clear that, unlike the way in which they were reported, the claims were not improper and were examples not of MPs trying to do things that they should not have been doing, but of MPs behaving properly and adapting to the new system.

[Bob Russell]

Unfortunately, that message has not got into the newspapers. The right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) made a serious allegation earlier and the Daily Mail today referred to an IPSA leak. Has the Minister received a statement from IPSA responding to the serious allegation that its director of communications is touting around trying to plant stories that are detrimental to Members of Parliament?

[Mr Harper]

The hon. Gentleman is quite right that the message has not got out that MPs have behaved completely properly. That is why I thought it helpful to announce it on the Floor of the House, not that that will get it into the newspapers, as we know. However, I thought it worth putting it on the record that IPSA has acknowledged that MPs have behaved properly.

It is not my job to speak for IPSA, but as the hon. Gentleman has asked me about this point, and as it was raised by the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) earlier, it may encourage hon. Members to know that IPSA has been following the progress of this debate very closely. It heard the right hon. Lady’s comments and has categorically denied them. It has confirmed that the information in The Times was obtained through an FOI request, not from a leak.

[Ann Clwyd]

I, too, have seen what IPSA has said in response, but it did not respond to the point that I made. I said:

“This morning, a colleague told me that they had been talking to a member of the press who had been offered information by somebody at IPSA on certain ‘juicy’ bits that had not yet emerged in the press about what certain Members had claimed for.”

I invited the person whom I named to answer that point. That person has not answered and I suggest that the statement put out by Sir Ian Kennedy does not answer the allegation that I made.

[Mr Harper]

I have heard that clearly, but as the right hon. Lady knows, IPSA is independent. It will have heard what she has said, and I am sure that it will respond in due course.

[Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)]

Does the hon. Gentleman think that it would help if IPSA answered parliamentary questions properly? For instance, I asked for a list of meetings that its staff had held with the press and of who was present on each occasion. The IPSA chief executive categorically refuses to answer that question. Would it not increase Members’ confidence in the system if IPSA were as transparent on such issues as it asks us to be when we are dealing with expenses?

[Mr Harper]

The hon. Lady makes a good point. When I am perusing the lists of tabled questions, I frequently see her pertinent questions to IPSA, and I sometimes enjoy seeing the answers. She is right: if transparency is good for us, it is good for IPSA. It can be extremely helpful.

This is a good point at which to refer to the hon. Member for Colchester (Bob Russell), who reminded the House that although IPSA is not accountable to the Government, it is accountable through the Speaker’s Committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, of which the hon. Gentleman is a member. Members look to that Committee to be vigorous in ensuring that IPSA conducts its affairs in an efficient and cost-effective manner.

[Mr Winnick]

Why has it taken so long for me to get a parliamentary reply about IPSA’s senior management team—who is involved, their salaries and so on? I have not yet received a reply, but surely such information should have been routine and I should have received it in a matter of two or three days.

[Mr Harper]

I can answer only for how Ministers and I deal with parliamentary questions. I endeavour to answer mine promptly and within the time limits, and I would have thought that others should do so too. However, thankfully, the Government are not responsible for IPSA’s ability to answer questions.

[Mr Charles Walker]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

Perhaps my hon. Friend the Member for Broxbourne (Mr Walker), who has a key role in the process, can help the House.

[Mr Walker]

The hon. Member for Walsall North (Mr Winnick) is right to be annoyed at having to wait so long for the answer. I signed it off yesterday as the SCIPSA member. The hon. Gentleman should get it next week.

[Mr Harper]

I am grateful for that intervention. I shall now try to make some progress, as I want to leave sufficient time for other hon. Members who wish to get in.

I said that the Prime Minister would be listening closely to this debate. In July, during Prime Minister’s questions, he said that:

“what is necessary is a properly transparent system, a system with proper rules and limits which the public would have confidence in, but what we do not need is an overly bureaucratic and very costly system. I think all those in the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority need to get a grip of what they are doing, and get a grip of it very fast.”—[Official Report, 14 July 2010; Vol. 513, c. 946.]

That is what all Members have said today. They want IPSA’s system to be transparent, straightforward, not bureaucratic and not costly. IPSA should get on with that.

[Mr Jenkin]

Does the Minister agree that, as with the House of Commons, IPSA is unlikely to survive a freedom of information request for evidence of payment to be produced? How can it justify withholding evidence of payment—all the invoices—on grounds of cost? That is part of the cost of the system, and it is going to have to bear it.

[Mr Harper]

That may well be the case, and I think that IPSA has admitted in public that if people apply for receipts through freedom of information requests, it may well have to do that. We will have to see how it gets on. That is the decision that it has made, which the shadow Leader of the House said is a balance between transparency and cost. It may find that the rules of freedom of information affect it as they affected the House.

The hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) was right to point out, as did other Members, what happened in the past and the fact that the House made the decision to have an independent system. That is important, as well as the transparency issue. I listened very carefully, but I do not think that anyone during the debate was urging that we go back on that; in fact, Members made good points about ensuring that we retain both transparency and independence.

Hon. Members gave examples of how they thought the system should move and a number spoke in favour of a flat-rate payment, including my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor. However, a number of Members, including the right hon. Member for Torfaen (Paul Murphy), the hon. Member for Manchester Central (Tony Lloyd) and my hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet (Mr Gale), pointed out that a flat-rate system, which does not take into account the variance in costs across the country, may not be a perfect one and that there needs to be some flexibility. They all suggested ways in which that flexibility may be achieved.

We have heard from several Members about their various experiences. IPSA itself has recognised that in the first few months of running the system it made mistakes; it has been very transparent about that. We know that it made mistakes and that it needs to improve the system. The hon. Member for Bassetlaw and the shadow Leader of the House referred to improvements that have been made in the system. IPSA now makes some direct payments to landlords for constituency office rental, it now pays against invoices, and the travelcard can now be used to pay other bills. Most importantly, it implemented advances to Members to deal with the genuine problem that very many Members do not have significant amounts of money and are not in a position to meet these costs out of their own pocket and then claim money back—costs which, as many Members have said, one would not expect any other person in business, in a position such as ours, to have to pay out of their own pocket, and would reasonably be thought of as proper business expenses.

Having said that, what I have heard does not suggest that the legislation necessarily needs to be reviewed. Under the legislation introduced by this House, the expenses system and the way that it operates is a matter for IPSA. No change in legislation is required to be able to deal with the issues that have been raised in the House. Indeed, in the letter that IPSA recently circulated to Members, it said that it will conduct its annual review of the scheme in the new year and will look at the problems that have been experienced by MPs. It specifically refers to the impact of the scheme on family life, which was raised by Members on both sides of the House, and the impact on Members living in the outer reaches of the London area—indeed, in places that most people in this House probably would not consider were in the London area. IPSA has also said that it will balance its requirements for assurance against the administrative burdens on itself and on Members. That is welcome and shows that it is listening.

Under the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009, IPSA is required to consult the Leader of the House as one of its statutory consultees, and the Government are considering how we can use that opportunity to submit evidence to IPSA. As Members will know, my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House is very familiar with the issues raised with him by many MPs, either privately or on the Floor of the House at business questions.

The Government strongly support the principles of independence and transparency for IPSA, as does the shadow Leader of the House. The review that IPSA is about to undertake is its opportunity to deliver a system that remains transparent, which is probably the best way of determining that Members behave properly, but is also more efficient and less bureaucratic. I am sure that I speak for Members on both sides of the House in urging IPSA to take that opportunity and deliver a system that improves on what we have today.

17:33

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

I should like to associate myself with all the compliments that have been passed to the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie), who has done us all a great service in initiating this debate.

I thought, tantalisingly, Mr Deputy Speaker, that you were going to call me after the hon. Member for Worthing West (Peter Bottomley). Since I was first selected to stand against him in 1989, we have seldom seen eye to eye on anything, but today I agreed with every word he said. The fact that IPSA has managed to bridge that chasm should be a serious warning to it indeed.

One of the ironies of the debate is that what initiated this process was a desire to deal with MPs who were in some way feathering their nests at public expense, but what we finished up with is the taxpayer paying out more money to solve the problem of people saying, “Woe betide these profligate and self-serving MPs.” We even had the involvement of Sir Thomas Legg, who barely washed his face in the amount of money that he brought back compared with what his investigation cost the House.

What we really want from today’s debate, as everyone has stressed, is for IPSA to listen. When my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester Central (Tony Lloyd), the Chair of the parliamentary Labour party, and I met Sir Ian Kennedy, we felt that everything we put to him was not sticking, and that he was not listening to anything we said about what is necessary for MPs and how MPs conduct their business. He just dismissed everything—he felt that he had all the answers and that he knew what MPs were about. I wonder whether some of the more Eurosceptic Members recognise that the system is akin to the EU. I am neither Eurosceptic nor Europhile, but there is a complete lack of public accountability and civil servants have been let rip, and we have ended up with a huge edifice. Every solution requires more expenditure and yet another department—someone mentioned that there is a new department for dealing with the media and press. Each problem that IPSA comes across seems to mean that it needs to spend more money, so we have now ended up with a very expensive edifice.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) was absolutely right to warn us about losing the principle of the independence of IPSA and said that we would do so at our peril. We would be wrong to dismiss that as an attempt by him to create headlines and to be obstructive. We have suffered in the past from fiddling and interference from the Government and Opposition Front Benches—over the years, that created the mess that we got into. We should remember that, under the previous system, somebody felt it appropriate to apply for payment for a duck house. The fact that that claim was not paid is often overlooked, but that someone felt it appropriate to apply in the first place shows how far gone and how wrong that system was.

[Mr Gale]

I know of no Member of the House who wants to overturn IPSA’s independence, in which respect the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) was quite wrong. Our problem is that the people conducting the review of IPSA are the people who were responsible for creating the problem in the first place. Would it not be a good idea to have an independent review?

[Clive Efford]

I would not dismiss that suggestion. I agree with the hon. Gentleman, and disagree with my hon. Friend the Member for Bassetlaw, because no one is suggesting that we lose that principle, but my hon. Friend was none the less right to warn us.

IPSA must set the framework within which MPs operate, but it must be sympathetic to what MPs confront in their daily business, which it has not been, even in respect of its computer system. IPSA told us that we must pay for surgery rents under the office rent heading, but there is no heading for surgery rents, so everything comes out of office rents. I suspect that my constituents who examine the system will wonder just how many offices I have. IPSA did not listen to MPs when it set up that system, but it must listen to this debate and the reasonable arguments that MPs have made, and change fundamentally.

I am a London MP and my staff are all based in my constituency. I have had the same staff since I was first elected. The inflationary increase in the staffing allowance was not a living increase, so if I had followed that, those staff would effectively have taken a real-terms pay cut. Instead, I vired money from my incidental expenses account into my staffing account to pay them a bonus at the end of the year, which meant that they got a decent salary increase. There is no viring any more, no spinal column, no incremental increase, and no recognition of the length of service of our staff. I really hope that IPSA takes that on board and rewards our staff.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn), the shadow Leader of the House, talked about direct payments and we must move to such a system. I know of Members of Parliament who have not spoken in the debate—we should remember that some Members do not wish to pour their hearts out in the Chamber and have the media raking over their personal affairs—who have had to sell their assets to pay their office rent and other costs, and to set up a basic bursary so that they have an account from which they can pay out money before claiming it back. Some Members of Parliament to whom I have spoken have been in tears because of the financial situation in which IPSA has put them. They are not here to speak in this debate, but that fact should not be lost on IPSA.

If IPSA has not been listening to the debate, I hope that it will read it and take on board all the points that hon. Members have made. IPSA should change the system so that Members can serve the public in the way in which we hoped we would when we were elected.

17:40

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

As one of the last Back Benchers to speak, I hope that I can say that we have had a good debate. Everyone has said their piece and made a valuable contribution, including the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann), who is fast becoming a national treasure. If he was not there, he would have to be invented, because his arguments have to be listened to.

The fact is—there is no doubt about it—that we cocked up the system. The thing collapsed, and we have a system that we all know is not working, and that is hugely complex and massively bureaucratic. Above all, it is costing the taxpayer more money—namely £10,000 to administer it before any money is handed out. We are only a small body—a medium-sized company of 600 people—and if this was the private sector, there would be a little accounts department run by half a dozen people. We do not need this vast bureaucracy, so in the few minutes I have to speak, I shall offer a simple solution.

I make no criticism of the staff. As I am pretty hopeless with computers, a very nice young man from IPSA sat next to me last week for two and a half hours while, with two fingers, I tried to claim for about five journeys. My criticism is not of the young people who work in IPSA, but of our Front Benchers, and particularly the three party leaders who got into a bidding war last year and landed us with this mess. By the way, thank God they are backing out of this and leaving it to Back Benchers, because this is a Back-Bench affair—it is nothing to do with Front Benchers. My criticism is also of Sir Ian Kennedy who, with his board, seems to have no conception of how Parliament is run.

My first guiding principle is that the electors want complete transparency, yet we have created a system that is so complex and bureaucratic that it is too expensive to publish receipts that were sought in the first place. It is Kafkaesque. My second guiding principle is that the system should cost the taxpayer less, but this is costing the taxpayer more, so no one is happy—what are we gaining?

There is something of the biter bit here, because for years we have created ever-more complex social security systems to try to regulate people’s behaviour. That resulted in massive fraud and error in the Department for Work and Pensions, and now it has come here. Perhaps it is time for us to try to create simpler systems throughout the civil service. That is why I have always argued for a simple system of no-fraud, no-error child benefit—a flat-rate benefit.

We should have a simple, flat-rate allowance like the old London costs allowance, because every single Member of Parliament has to live in London. I say to the hon. Member for Bassetlaw and others that it is not for us to determine what that should be—it would be for an independent body. I would be out of pocket under such a system because, unlike my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr Field), I need a home in my north Lincolnshire constituency, which is three and a half hours away, as well as a home here, but we all know that the secret of happiness is not to compare oneself to others. Let us have the same allowance for every Member of Parliament.

[Duncan Hames]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Leigh]

I cannot give way because I have been told that I have only three or four minutes.

Such a flat-rate allowance should be taxable so that the Inland Revenue is not involved. There would be no fraud, no possibility of error and no receipts. Every Member of Parliament would get the same.

What we have at the moment is fundamentally anti-family. When my predecessor came to the House, he virtually had to buy his seat, and when he left Newark station, the station master would say to him, “When will your next annual visit be, sir?” Over the past 30 or 40 years, we have created a system in which ordinary people with no private means—people such as me, who have been full-time Members of Parliament for all that time—have been able to devote themselves to public affairs. I am sorry to get personal, but for 27 years I have carted my family up and down the A1 for three and a half and hours in either direction. I have created a small family home in Lincolnshire, and a family home in London. Surely we should allow people to preserve that sort of lifestyle.

We are all different—some people have big families, others have small families; some have old families, some have young families—but we need a system of allowances, which I think should be set at a flat rate, and pay that allows ordinary people with no private resources to come to the House and to serve the public. That is all we want to do; nobody comes here to make money or to get rich. We just want to serve the public. We love Parliament, but surely we have to be allowed to do our job and stay with our families. This place should not become the preserve of the rich, as it used to be 30 or 40 years ago. So, away with all this complexity! Away with all this bureaucracy! Just give MPs a decent salary. Every member of the public I speak to says the same. They are sick and tired of this debate; let us end it now.

17:46

[Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)]

I should like to join colleagues in commending the hon. Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) for securing this debate and for the tone in which he set it, which has, surprisingly perhaps, reflected well on the House. As a new Member, I have persevered in seeking to catch your eye this afternoon, Mr Deputy Speaker, because although I agree with many of the critiques of the current situation, I do not agree with many of the suggested solutions, including that suggested by the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh).

As a new Member, my experience of this place is that there are many hard-working, dedicated colleagues on both sides of the House, and, having observed their work ethic, I am in no doubt that they perceive their role to be that of a public servant. However, when it comes to our terms and conditions, our mode of operation and even our autonomy in deciding how we provide that service to the public, I have been surprised by the number of colleagues who seem to adopt the mindset of someone who is running their own business. In fact, we have heard contradictory accounts today about who employs whom in this place.

I have run a small business, but as a newly elected Member I could really have done without the freedom and responsibility of choosing my own constituency premises, negotiating the lease and sourcing the necessary equipment for my staff to use. None of that is what I came here to do. I suspect that some Members here might not even feel qualified to do it. We have all this administrative freedom to set things up exactly as we wish, but with that freedom comes administrative responsibility, as well as the unusual transaction requirements whereby MPs pay for everything first and claim the money back in what we have come to refer to as expenses.

I would argue that Members need to realise that, in cherishing that administrative autonomy, they make a rod for their own backs, by turning what for most people are the fundamentals of their workplace accommodation into what for us are treated as expenses. I would rather that we let go of all that and allowed independent, or indeed parliamentary, authorities to provide, manage and pay for our constituency offices—

[Bob Russell]

Oh, no!

[Duncan Hames]

I accept that that view is not shared by other Members, but I have waited patiently to share my view, which I hope Members will at least respect.

In the information published today, there are no expenses reported in my name. That is not because I have shouldered all those costs myself, though my team and I have taken care to limit the costs met by the taxpayer. It is because I have put off using the expenses system as long as I could, as I understood that other colleagues were experiencing what might be called teething troubles. My staff tell me that in those early days it was difficult to get either timely or consistent advice from IPSA personnel, but that the administration of the arrangements is now better than it was. I am sure that as the public start to use the information that IPSA publishes, the need for improved transparency will be apparent.

I agree with the hon. Member for Eltham (Clive Efford), who argued that it would be helpful if we had some clear headings such as “constituency surgeries”, rather than the current description of “hire of premises”. I would echo the comments of the hon. Member for Windsor in his conclusion—IPSA is mistaken in deciding not to publish receipts.

A similar argument applies to arrangements for MPs’ staff. Many are modestly paid, hard-working and share all the job insecurity that we, as elected representatives, have come to accept. The budget for their employment, as was explained earlier, has effectively been cut by 10% since May and unlike other public servants they have no recourse to a professional human resources department and are instead at the mercy of the people management skills of individual legislators. Now that IPSA has deemed it appropriate to set their job descriptions and pay scales, I believe that it should also accept the support responsibilities arising from its emerging de facto relationship as their employer. MPs’ staff deserve to be treated as people and as workers and not reduced to an expense.

I recognise the need for the arrangements to be governed independently of MPs, as Members on both sides of the argument have accepted. I look to IPSA to continue to develop a fairer and more cost-effective system. We seem to be agreed about the shortcomings of the situation, but I do not believe that the answer is allowances that offer greater freedom for Members of Parliament or for Members of Parliament to threaten to bring them about.

As I believe I have set out, there is an alternative way forward whereby Members should have more time to spend on their constituents, which is what the hon. Member for Windsor asked for. Basic office accommodation, equipment and HR administration should be provided directly and Members of Parliament should let go and get out of the way.

17:51

[Mr Mark Field (Cities of London and Westminster) (Con)]

No one could accuse my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor (Adam Afriyie) of lacking bravery in introducing this debate. I suspect that not many votes can be found in bringing up IPSA once again, so it is to his credit.

We all faced difficulties through IPSA’s teething problems—even me, as a central London MP. I have no need for a second home, but obviously I have had an office to run, like all other Members. My big concern is that all parties promised the British public a new politics in May’s general election, which was supposed to draw a line under the calamitous expenses scandal. I am increasingly alarmed that after everything there is a sense among the public that the political class still do not get it. We will have some high-profile High Court cases and I am sure that we will see a number of parliamentarians imprisoned in the course of the next six months. The whole issue will not go away quickly.

I did not agree with much of what the hon. Member for Chippenham (Duncan Hames) had to say, but my biggest concern is for many of the new intake and I am glad that he took the opportunity to give us his views today. I know that many of the new MPs to whom I have spoken are suffering the most and are suffering genuine hardship. I feel that, in a way, they are paying for the sins of a past generation under the old system, which was so disastrous.

I have to say—I know that I will be the only person saying this—that I agreed with quite a lot of what the hon. Member for Bassetlaw (John Mann) had to say. We have crossed swords on this over the years. He is right that the Executive and their insistence on taking control of these issues has led us down a path to disaster.

I am sorry to say to my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) that this is not just about the most recent party leaders—it goes back some 30 years. The use of allowances as a substitute for salary increases, in particular, had been independently recommended and was used by successive Governments going back to the mid-1980s.

After the Derek Conway case of January 2008, we had a promise that there would be root-and-branch reform, but there was nothing of the sort. We collectively had the opportunity at that time to make the changes and we all felt that we could continue to pull the wool over the public’s eyes and went through the calamitous collection of High Court cases in which the Speaker’s Commission—including some senior parliamentarians in this place and in the House of Lords—took the view that we should fight that fight. It turned out to be an absolute calamity. At that juncture, the freedom of information case concerned only 12 Members and former Members, but once it had gone to the courts the whole situation was opened up. It turned out to be an absolute calamity, and we have ourselves to blame.

My biggest concern is, again, for the new generation of MPs. Because of a genuine sense of hardship and a sense of frustration about the whole process, I would not be surprised if quite a few did not stand at the next election. We will have a lot of one-term MPs, and voluntarily so, which is a terrible indictment of the fact that we have not got the system sorted out correctly. It has been a catalogue of disasters.

I have some sympathy with what my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough said. In the House of Lords, a daily allowance is paid across the board, without any need for receipts or for an IPSA-type bureaucracy. I know that that is not an ideal scenario, but it seems to me that if their lordships have gone down that route and it seems to be working pretty well, we should not necessarily exclude it ourselves.

I wish to say one last thing about IPSA’s workings. It has promised that there will be a review of the broad issue of salaries early next year, in conjunction with the Senior Salaries Review Body. I know that the Minister spoke earlier, but I wish to say—I hope he is listening—that I hope he will now be able to provide assurances to all Members that we will not go down the route of the Executive taking control of these matters yet again, and therefore having ever more incentives, albeit that it would be much more difficult to have incentives as salary substitutes.

I hope that when IPSA comes up with its report, as it is bound to do by the end of next year, that report will not sit gathering dust either in the Speaker’s Office or at No. 10 Downing street, but that the Government will act on it immediately to ensure that it is properly published and that the recommendations are implemented without amendment.

We have had a very interesting debate, and I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Windsor would like to say a few final words in summing up, but I finish by saying that I hope we will be able to make some genuine progress on IPSA and on the whole issue of salaries, so that we can put this squalid episode into the past.

17:57

[Adam Afriyie]

With only a couple of minutes left, I should just like to say a few quick things. First, the debate has been held in a measured and considered tone. All the contributions, perhaps bar one, have been very well considered and put forward in the interests not of the current Parliament and current Members but in the interests of the future of Parliament. We want to ensure that this place will be diverse and welcoming to people with young families, and to those who are not as affluent as others and cannot afford to fund their own way here.

It seems to me that if the motion is passed—there are questions about that—Parliament will have made a very clear statement. It will have said, “Please, IPSA, we beg you, we urge you: come up with a simplified scheme that delivers what Parliament requires to function for the next 10, 20 or 30 years.” It will also have said, “If you do not come up with such a scheme, Parliament will be prepared to act.” In order to act, Parliament will need to be sure that there is time available for legislation. Members are aware of my Parliamentary Standards (Amendment) Bill, and I shall make a big, bold, open offer to Front Benchers that if they wish to use it as a vehicle to open up the process they are very welcome to do so either tomorrow or later. I hope that they take up the offer.

The solution to the challenges that we face with IPSA, and to the impediments to getting to the House, lies with Front Benchers. I hope that they will take the opportunity to allow the motion to be passed, so that Parliament has spoken. I beg to move, That the Question be now put.

Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 36), That the Question be now put.

Question agreed to.

That this House regrets the unnecessarily high costs and inadequacies of the systems introduced by the Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority (IPSA); calls on the IPSA to introduce a simpler scheme of office expenses and Members’ allowances that cuts significantly the administrative costs, reduces the amount of time needed for administration by Members and their staff, does not disadvantage less well-off Members and those with family responsibilities, nor deter Members from seeking reimbursement of the costs of fulfilling their parliamentary duties; and resolves that if these objectives are not reflected in a new scheme set out by the IPSA in time for operation by 1 April 2011, the Leader of the House should make time available for the amendment of the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009 to do so.

Business without Debate

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Commons Chamber

Committee of Public Accounts (Amendment of Standing Orders) (no. 1)

Ordered,

That Standing Order No. 148 (Committee of Public Accounts) be amended in paragraph (1), as follows:

in line 7, after ‘records’, insert ‘, to sit notwithstanding any adjournment of the House’.—(Mr Bacon.)

committee of Public Accounts (amendment Of standing Orders (No. 2)

Ordered,

That Standing Order No. 148 (Committee of Public Accounts) be amended in paragraph (1), as follows:

in line 8, after ‘time to time,’, insert ‘to appoint specialist advisers either to supply information which is not readily available or to elucidate matters of complexity within the committee’s order of reference,’.—(Mr Bacon.)

UK Passport Contract

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Commons Chamber

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Mr Goodwill.)

18:00

[Mr Michael Meacher (Oldham West and Royton) (Lab)]

For the past 40 years, the British passport has been produced in my constituency, first by Her Majesty’s Stationery Office, then, when it was sold by the Government to venture capitalists, by Security Printing and Systems Ltd and, more recently, by 3M, which acquired the latter company in 2006. 3M has, to date, invested more than £20 million in the facility. I should add that the British passport is an intensely technical document, which has more than 120 overt and covert security features, ranging from reflective inks and holograms to features that only a trained eye or forensic examination can detect.

Having 40 years’ experience in producing this highly technical product to consistently high standards is no mean feat, and it was therefore gratifying for the staff at the production facility to learn that the Identity and Passport Service was rated as the top-performing public sector organisation by its customers. The survey carried out by the Institute of Customer Service was based on responses from 26,000 members of the public, who rated the IPS above names such as Royal Mail, the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency and the Post Office. The chief executive of the IPS, Sarah Rapson, said on 13 April:

“This is a great confidence boost and confirms yet again that we have strong foundations in place to deliver the exemplary service we provide to our customers.”

How strange then that the Home Office is willing to dispense with that 40-year track record and put at risk the strong foundations to which Sarah Rapson was referring by taking the contract away from the incumbent and placing it with a company, De La Rue, whose track record in producing passports is limited and whose experience in producing passports to the volumes required by the UK is non-existent.

The appetite of Britons for overseas travel is as strong as ever and more than 6 million British passports are produced a year, the vast majority of which are renewals. The current set-up and production capacity at the facility means that, on average, passports are delivered to customers in a matter of days after the submission of their completed application. The quality is consistent, and quality assurance procedures are rigorous and regularly audited. I can say without risk of rebuttal that De La Rue, to which the British passport has been entrusted, has no great track record in the production of this quantity of passports.

It is well documented—I do not wish to dwell on this but it has to be said—that De La Rue has not exactly been short of problems this year. Its chief executive resigned in June following production issues at its banknote paper plant, which involved its employees falsifying documents—the Serious Fraud Office is currently investigating that little matter. Another SFO inquiry took place in 2007, during which the homes of employees were raided, and the company has also faced accusations of fraud in Kenya and price fixing in the US in the past 10 years. One has to ask whether this is really a company to which we should entrust the production of the British passport.

Let me turn to the awarding of the contract with De La Rue in June 2009 and the circumstances surrounding it. As has regrettably become the case in large Government procurements, this process is tortuously complicated and prolonged. Consequently, it is extremely expensive for the participants and for the person paying the bill, which in this case is the taxpayer.

There were a number of unsatisfactory elements to the procurement that in my view seriously call into question the integrity of the entire process. The first, which was well documented in the media at the time, was the role of Gill Rider, a non-executive director of De La Rue who was also an official in the Cabinet Office responsible for the recruitment of senior civil servants. One of the civil servants whom Gill Rider had a hand in recruiting was James Hall, who at the time of the procurement in question was the chief executive of the Identity and Passport Service. Another was Bill Crothers, who was the chief operating officer of the Identity and Passport Service at the time of the procurement. James Hall and Gill Rider had been colleagues together at Accenture for many years before joining the civil service, while Bill Crothers was also a recruit into the civil service from Accenture.

I accept that Gill Rider stood down when the matter was raised in the Home Office, but not before, and that was two thirds of the way through the two-year procurement process. Furthermore, she remained a shareholder of the company throughout. In addition, representations were made to me immediately after the announcement of the tender result in June 2009 by 3M, which said that it had found some of the processes used in certain phases of the procurement to have lacked fairness. It is only fair to add at this point that 3M was somewhat reluctant for me to secure this debate, because of its fear that raising such matters could compromise its relationship with the Home Office, a customer with which it has always had a tremendously strong relationship. I want to make it clear to the Minister that the reason I have done so is that the Government are unaccountably playing down or disregarding an enormous financial gain to the Exchequer—more than £100 million—at a time when they are also saying that colossal spending cuts have to be made, which seems perverse to say the least. Also, a large number of jobs will be lost to the UK—probably more than 100—at a time when the Government are desperate to stop unemployment rising, which again seems perverse.

Another disquieting aspect to the procurement process was the fact that former De La Rue employees sat as part of the technical selection panel on the bid. That surely cannot be right. Those people—presumably they were holders of deferred De La Rue pensions—should surely have been excluded on the grounds of a conflict of interest. In addition, on each occasion during the competitive dialogue phase, when each company had to express and present its ideas, 3M was asked to present before De La Rue. I do not want to make too much of that, but there was no drawing of lots or any other randomising procedure to balance out the advantage at a particularly sensitive stage of the process. I would add that, frankly, I am dissatisfied that the senior officials advising the Minister on our representations to him about a retender were precisely the same as those who were involved in the original reallocation of the contract. To me, that does not exactly suggest a genuinely independent re-evaluation of the issues. I mention these matters not to rake over the coals, but to explain and justify my strong belief that the original procurement was seriously flawed and that the new, non-exclusive passport contract should be retendered.

On 14 July, George Buckley, the chief executive officer of 3M wrote to the Home Secretary to make the case for retendering the contract. That offer was made—I think one can readily admit this—in response to the difficult economic circumstances that the country faces and to the call by the Government for proposals to save money. The offer was to reduce the cost of the new contract by £100 million over the life of that contract. That included savings from the change in Government policy on having secondary biometrics within the passport. In the current circumstances, £100 million is not a sum to be sniffed at. It is not far short of 1% of the entire reduction in spending cuts that the Government hope to make in this fiscal year; a reduction of that magnitude cannot be dismissed or disregarded.

On 4 August, a perfunctory letter—I say that with feeling because I have seen the letter from John Collington, a Home Office official and yet another Accenture employee—failed to acknowledge the new, reduced contract offer. That was not only negligent but dismissive, publicly indefensible and even contemptuous. On 15 September, accompanied by some members of 3M’s management, I met the Minister—I am grateful to him for that—to discuss a new cost model for the new UK passport contract. At that meeting, the same offer was made again in detail and was subsequently confirmed in a letter on 17 September from 3M’s UK managing director Jim McSheffrey.

The commitment was to reduce the cost of the passport contract by £100 million—from £400 million, where it is today, to £300 million for the 10-year-period. That was achievable due to the change in specifications, with secondary biometrics no longer being required on the UK passport, and by allowing costs to be spread over a number of future international contracts. I am fully aware that the Minister is sceptical that a saving as high as £100 million can be achieved, but my answer is that, although I cannot go into details now, for reasons of commercial confidentiality, the detailed breakdown of that £100 million is provided in specifics and in full in the letter of 17 September, which, of course, the Home Office has.

On 28 September a reply to 3M’s offer letter was written by the Minister’s Department and sent under his signature. I note that I was not copied into the reply, despite having instigated the meeting, but I shall not make much of that. The reply says that there is no

“convincing argument to change current arrangements”.

There is an ample case to be made for retendering the contract. The risks—given that there is an incumbent supplier still in place that is able to produce at volume—are minimal. Also, 3M produces all UK passports in the UK, thus maximising UK jobs and minimising the security risks of transporting blank passports from abroad, whereas De La Rue proposes to produce a proportion of the passports in its production facility in Malta.

If the contract goes ahead without retender, more than 100 jobs will be removed from the current operation. I understand that only a tiny fraction of those employees will find employment under the new contract. In addition to the £100 million that will be lost to the Exchequer if there is no retender, there will be a further cost to the Exchequer of more than £5 million in severance payments.

As the Minister will be aware, the current contract with De La Rue is on a non-exclusive basis, which means that it can be terminated at any time. A retender could be completed at minimal cost—and rapidly—to gain the benefits to the UK taxpayer of a lower cost contract. It is also the case, as the Minister will again be aware, that there is a requirement to benchmark the contract against other potential suppliers to ensure that the UK Government are receiving, and continue rightly to receive, value for money. That means that the Identity and Passport Service is required to check periodically throughout the life of the contract that it is receiving value for money.

In that context, on 5 October, De La Rue was due to start producing passports in volume. However, although it did produce its first passport on the day due, there has been a need for 3M to continue to produce the UK passport at normal rates owing to a significant slippage in the agreed programme on the part of De La Rue, despite the project delivery dates being a key part of the evaluation. As of today, most of the 3M employees on the contract remain, because the facility is still running at normal volumes, but within a few weeks, presses at 3M will get turned off for the last time. I do not think we can avoid the conclusion that the new contract has been unable to produce passports at the volumes required.

The Government have entrusted, under circumstances that I find deeply dubious, a critical piece of the national infrastructure—the production of the nation’s passports—to a company seemingly incapable of doing the job. I do not want to have to take this matter further with the Select Committees of the House, but the Minister should retender the contract before the Government lose £100 million of savings and the country loses more than 100 jobs.

18:16

[The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green)]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) on securing this debate. Given that he made the point himself, I am sure that he will understand that it would be inappropriate for me to discuss detailed areas of commercial information at the Dispatch Box.

I appreciate that the right hon. Gentleman is rightly concerned about the impact on jobs in his constituency. That is understandable and right—any Member of the House would feel the same. The loss of jobs anywhere is to be much regretted. As he said, the passport has been produced in his constituency for the past 40 years. I congratulate 3M and the predecessor companies on the work they did on the passport, and I am happy to reassure 3M that nothing the right hon. Gentleman has said will alter my or the Home Office’s attitude to it in any future Government business for which it tenders. We treat all potential procurement exercises fairly and equally, and we look at the competence of those involved and the price they are charging. The right hon. Gentleman is correct also that the Identity and Passport Service provides an extremely good service.

At that point, however, I parted company from much of what the right hon. Gentleman said. He will be aware that the contract for the printing of the British passport was granted under the previous Labour Administration, and I have no reason to believe that the tender process was anything other than fair and subject to open competition. He prayed in aid of 3M Sarah Rapson, but he will be aware that she became the head of the IPS only in recent months, so all the decisions he is talking about, and everything he is complaining about, happened before she became head of the IPS and said what he quoted her as saying, apparently in aid of his argument. At that time, 3M Security Printing and Systems submitted an unsuccessful bid, and the contract was awarded to De La Rue. It was signed on 2 July 2009, and the service commenced in October 2010.

The right hon. Gentleman made an explicit attack on what he described as the integrity of the process. I want to make clear—as, I am sure, would he—that that did not entail an attack on the integrity of those involved. He took the opportunity to name a number of officials, but I am sure that he was in no way attempting to attack their integrity. That would be wrong, and it would clearly also be wrong to attack the integrity of the Minister involved. The right hon. Gentleman said that the process was wrong. He knows, as a former Minister himself, that Ministers are responsible for the process, so attacking the process would be attacking the Minister as well.

The right hon. Gentleman also said one thing that was simply factually incorrect. He said that all the senior officials involved were still there advising me, as a Minister in the new Government. That is not true. James Hall, who was head of the Identity and Passport Service at the time, has retired, which means that the most important official who was involved when the decision was made is no longer there. I think it important to put that on the record.

[Mr Meacher]

The point that I was making is that the senior officials who attended on the Minister when we made representations to him were closely involved in the original allocation of the contract. I did not say that all the officials who were originally involved were there now, but those who played a significant part are still there, and I therefore do not think the process is genuinely independent.

The Minister questioned whether I had been right to say that the process had not been fairly undertaken. I will not repeat them now, but I presented three, four or five arguments in my speech which need a precise answer rather than just “I am satisfied with the process”.

[Damian Green]

It is not very surprising that some of the officials who were at the IPS a year or so ago are still there. I can reassure the right hon. Gentleman that no single individual or, indeed, small number of individuals could have decided the outcome of the bid. More than 25 evaluators were involved in the process. I am sorry that, when he intervened on me, the right hon. Gentleman did not take the opportunity to make clear that he was not attacking the integrity of the individuals involved. I had given him every chance to do so.

As the right hon. Gentleman knows, I met him and representatives of 3M on 15 September 2010 to discuss their request for the contract to be retendered on the basis of the decision of the coalition Government to halt the second biometric in the United Kingdom passport. As I said then and will repeat tonight, I do not consider that either the right hon. Gentleman or 3M has presented any new information that would merit the adoption of such an approach. Nor, in particular, would it be appropriate to put at risk the continuity of the passport operation.

The right hon. Gentleman and 3M argue that savings of £100 million are to be had simply because the form of the passport has been changed through the removal of the second biometric. As I have said, I do not find that argument convincing. Moreover, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, the approach to me was made only a few weeks before the new passport operation was due to begin. The main principle that guides me must be the preservation of the safety, security, smooth running and smooth production of the passport service, and the consideration that the right hon. Gentleman is inviting discontinuity must bear heavily on me as the Minister responsible for the passport service.

As the right hon. Gentleman has admitted, the IPS achieves a high level of public satisfaction in the quality and security of the service it delivers. That relies on its ensuring that all parts of its operation work effectively and efficiently, in the best interests of the customer and the wider interests of the UK economy.

The right hon. Gentleman cast doubt on the process. Of course, the IPS followed the EU procurement regulations process, which was initiated on 19 June 2008 by the issue of an Official Journal of the European Union notice. The award of the new passport design and production contract was necessary due to the current passport contract expiring on 4 October 2010. The Identity and Passport Service announced on 11 June 2009 that De La Rue had won the £400 million contract to produce the new British passport book over the next 10 years. That contract commenced on 5 October 2010.

The De La Rue contract represents better value for money and introduces a new design and improved quality for the customer. In addition, the tender process allowed savings on print costs to be made in relation to the current contract. The IPS ensured that all bidders were offered an equal opportunity to compete against the incumbent supplier, 3M SPSL. The objective of the procurement was to complete a fair, transparent, robust, defensible and fully auditable evaluation exercise that ultimately identified the most suitable supplier to deliver passport services. The supplier produces a secure, high-quality passport, and provides production arrangements at a competitive price.

There are about 48 million passport holders in the UK, which represents 80% of the eligible population. The new supplier is expected to produce up to 6 million passports every year. The current length of the contract ensures that there is the right balance between the level of investment required, the need for good relationships to be fostered, and the need for the IPS to remain flexible and responsive to the way in which the market changes over time.

The procurement process over which the right hon. Gentleman has cast doubt was subject to detailed and thorough assurance from Home Office Commercial, the Office of Government Commerce and an external audit, including a National Audit Office review to ensure that an objective assessment was reached. The awarding of the contract was based on which supplier offered the best overall solution and value for money, measured against a clear set of evaluation criteria, of which 3M was fully aware and against which it performed during detailed competitive processes.

[Mr Meacher]

The Minister is talking entirely about the award of the contract. I accept that I made comment about that, but the thrust of my argument was not going back over the past, but looking to the future, and the fact that 3M is offering a £100 million reduction in the cost, which is more than highly competitive and would avoid the loss of 100 jobs. Will the Minister please concentrate his remarks on why that is not acceptable, even if it requires a retender?

The Minister wants me to make a comment about integrity. I referred to the integrity of the process. I did not refer to individuals, but I do think there are serious issues about the conflict of interest of the various individuals to whom I referred.

[Damian Green]

I am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman’s clarification of what he is getting at when he speaks of integrity. I can only observe gently to him that the background of those who were senior in the IPS over a year ago was well known to him and to everyone else at the time. If he is so disturbed about it now, it might have been more useful to his cause to have pointed that out at the time to a Government of whom he was a supporter.

In a sense, that is irrelevant, because any Minister of any Government would try to make the best decision, but if the right hon. Gentleman is disturbed about the process and about the senior officials involved in it, the time to make that point is before a decision is taken, not a year afterwards. As I say, I have absolutely no evidence to suggest to me that anyone involved—the Minister or any of the officials—in a process which clearly I had nothing to do with, deserve any shadow cast over them. The right hon. Gentleman is making such an implication now. All I can sensibly do is observe that it might have been more helpful to his cause if he had made that observation at the time.

The right hon. Gentleman makes the point that 3M says that it could fulfil the contract now for £100 million less. As I have said repeatedly in private meetings and again this evening, I have seen no convincing evidence that backs that up. Again, 3M was given the opportunity to bid for the work at the time. The reasons that it was unsuccessful were fully explained to 3M. There is no economic reason why the IPS should seek to put its operation at risk by reopening a contract that is up and running and working effectively.

I have to end on that point, because that is the most important point for me. I must be responsible for an effective and efficient passport service. Asking me to put at risk—

18:30

House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order No. 9(7)).

Petition

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Petitions

Thursday 2 December 2010

Factory Farming

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Petitions

The Petition of residents of the Coventry South constituency,

Declares that the Petitioners believe that animals in British factory farms are pumped full of protein to speed up their growth; notes that soy is a major source of protein; further notes that, in order to produce enough protein, precious habitats like rainforests are cleared in South America to make way for vast soy plantations; and further declares that this increases climate changing gases in the atmosphere, damages the Earth’s free life-support systems, which provide us with clean water, healthy soil and air to breathe, forces small farmers off their land, making them unable to grow food for their families, and fails UK farmers, leaving them vulnerable to fluctuating commodity prices.

The Petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to take steps to shift subsidies away from factory farming, to support farmers to grow their own animal feed and to ensure supermarkets offer fair deals to everyone.

And the Petitioners remain, etc.—[Presented by Mr Jim Cunningham, Official Report, 10 November 2010; Vol. 518, c. 388.]

[P000866]

Observations from the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs:

The Government are committed to supporting a sustainable future for UK farmers including those in our meat and dairy sectors. DEFRA’s structural reform priorities of:

support for British farming and the encouragement of sustainable food production;

enhancing the environment and biodiversity to improve quality of life; and,

support for a strong and sustainable green economy, resilient to climate change put this support at the forefront of what the Department does.

We are committing significant resources at a time of budgetary restraint to improve our understanding of the knowledge base for sustainability. For example, the Government are currently co-funding research with the livestock industry on what happens when home grown legumes replace soya in pig diets and on an analysis of nutrition regimes for ruminants to reduce greenhouse gases (GHGs).

In partnership with the devolved Administrations, DEFRA has committed £12.6 millions into research to improve our understanding of GHG emissions from farms across the UK. And the Government are working with 30 countries in the Global Research Alliance to collaborate on research on agricultural GHG emissions reductions including from livestock.

In addition, the Technology Strategy Board, in conjunction with DEFRA and the Biotechnology and Biological Sciences Research Council, is currently planning a call of up to £15 million for business-led, applied research projects that will help to deliver a sustainable future supply of protein for the UK.

The Government are committed to tackling the deforestation that has accompanied soya consumption, while recognising that soya production and consumption is not all about feeding it to livestock. In fact, two thirds of all manufactured food products for human consumption contain derivatives or ingredients made from soya as do many cosmetics. Soya oil production, of which soya meal for livestock feeding is a co-product, is also a valuable source of energy as a biofuel. So we are working closely with our EU and international partners, particularly Brazil, to tackle the drivers of deforestation rather than soya farming per se. And to tackle illegal logging, which destroys forests and biodiversity, contributes to carbon dioxide emissions, and costs billions of pounds in lost revenue, with the biggest impact being on the poorest communities in the poorest countries.

We made progress at the Convention on Biological Diversity in Nagoya recently, not only in agreeing targets for reducing the loss of habitats, including forests, and tackling forest degradation, but also on the linkages between climate change and biodiversity, and we need to build on this progress at Cancun.

The Government announced as part of the Spending Review that we will provide £2.9 billion towards tackling international climate change and a significant proportion of this will be used for addressing forestry issues. This meets, and goes beyond, the commitments the UK made at Copenhagen.

All of which activity, and the significant resource that the Government are making available, points to the importance we attach to the sustainability of UK food and farming. The complex matrix of issues that define livestock farming’s contribution to our economy, biodiversity, landscapes, food security, and the viability of rural communities, will be shaped by the investments in research today that will underpin livestock farming’s sustainability in the future.

Westminster Hall

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Westminster Hall

Thursday 2 December 2010

[Albert Owen in the Chair]

Backbench Business

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Westminster Hall

Fisheries

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Westminster Hall

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting be now adjourned.—(Mr Robert Goodwill.)

14:30

[Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)]

It is my great privilege to open this afternoon’s debate on fisheries, and I am grateful to see so many hon. Members, who I suspect have postponed rather arduous journeys home to far-flung parts of the UK to be here. I am very grateful to them all.

With the EU Fisheries Council talks less than two weeks away and with officials, I believe, already in Bergen ahead of the talks, this is a timely and very necessary debate. It is likely that we are facing reductions in total allowable catches for some of our key stocks in the year ahead. That means that, in spite of having made substantial progress in conservation, certain parts of our fishing industry are facing a very bleak outlook next year.

As I am sure most Members would agree, fishing is part of the DNA of our coastal communities. It is a multi-million pound industry, and it employs thousands of people—5,500 people in Scotland alone. In addition, fishing directly supports many more thousands of jobs onshore, in processing, retail, supply, maintenance, boat building and so on.

However, we must remember that fishing remains an inherently dangerous and demanding occupation that takes place in a hostile marine environment. Last year, 13 men on UK-registered fishing vessels lost their lives. It is important today that we remember them; that we express our condolences to their families and communities, and that we pay tribute to the Fishermen’s Mission, the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, our coastguards and all those who offer support to our fishermen in their hour of need.

I am very grateful to have the opportunity to lead this debate today, so I am disappointed that it is not taking place on the Floor of the House. In my view, it is very important that the Government should have the chance to inform our discussions this afternoon by setting out their priorities for the EU negotiations. Nevertheless, I hope that we will have a full and productive debate.

As I am sure Members are well aware, this year’s EU talks are taking place against the backdrop of ongoing consultation on reform of the common fisheries policy. At the outset, I think that we have to acknowledge that the CFP is an abject failure. It has failed the fishing industry, it has failed as a conservation strategy and it has failed our coastal communities.

The significant challenges that we now face have to be seen in the context of a CFP that, for more than 30 years, has been systematically damaging our marine environment, systematically undermining the livelihoods of those who seek to earn a living from the sea and has been inconsistently applied across the member states of the EU. It is simply not fit for purpose. It is my belief that we will not realise an economically and environmentally sustainable fishing industry until the CFP is consigned to history and replaced with a workable model of fisheries management.

There is growing consensus in the fishing industry among fishing leaders, fishermen, scientists and environmental non-governmental organisations, that a regionalised approach offers a better way forward than the “one-size-fits-nobody” approach that we have at the moment.

[Mr Angus Brendan MacNeil (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend, of course, on securing this debate. With Scottish National party eyes, I perhaps see a new “Madame Ecosse” in the making—I am not sure, but we could well have another one within the party.

On the point of regionalisation, surely the way in which the CFP and fisheries are managed at the moment places restrictions on fishing west coast prawns and causes problems, because of the multiplicity of species in the sector. There is a lot of whiting in the sea that eat young prawns, but the fishermen are unable to get them, and rescue and sort out the prawn fishery. As a result, there are distortions right across Scotland, but particularly on the west coast. I wonder if my hon. Friend would address that.

[Dr Whiteford]

I thank my hon. Friend for making that very important point about the need for a whole-ecosystem approach to fisheries management. In addition, our fishermen need the ability to plan their business on a long-term basis and certainly on a much longer-term basis than they do at the moment.

I cannot think of any other industry that is subjected to the intense degree of micro-management and annual uncertainty that the fishing industry is subjected to every year at this time. Fishing is a politically managed and politically regulated industry, and we just simply have to do better.

Fishing is very much the lifeblood of the coastal communities I represent, which include Peterhead, Europe’s premier white fish port, and Fraserburgh, Europe’s biggest shellfish port. Between them, Peterhead and Fraserburgh are also home to a large part of the UK’s pelagic fleet and home to a large processing sector. We have a very diverse industry and it does not just involve major ports such as Peterhead and Fraserburgh. In my constituency, many coastal towns and villages define themselves by their maritime traditions: Whitehills, Gardenstown, Rosehearty, Cairnbulg, Inverallochy, St Combs, and my home town of Macduff. These communities have paid a very high price for the failure of the CFP, which has essentially been a failure of political leadership.

I know that the diverse fishing industry I see in Banff and Buchan is reflected around other parts of the UK coastline. One of the advantages of having a general debate this afternoon is that it will enable Members from around these islands, I hope, to express the concerns and interests of different parts of the fishing industry that pertain to their own locale. Nevertheless, I hope that Members will understand that I myself want to focus this afternoon on a couple of issues that are of particular interest to my own local area.

Perhaps nothing symbolises the mismanagement of fisheries policy more than the present predicament of our white fish fleet in relation to the whole problem of discarding good-quality fish. Under the current regulations, nutritious and marketable food that could be landed and sold is instead thrown back dead into the sea, polluting the marine environment and needlessly depriving boats of landings that could keep them afloat financially.

[Mr MacNeil]

On that point about discards, some fishermen from the west coast of Scotland have said to me that they feel that the increased quota restrictions, which it must be said are often called for by environmentalists, actually lead to higher discards and that it is a counter-productive way of managing fishing, with micro-management from outside the fishing industry leading to these increases in discards.

[Dr Whiteford]

I agree with my hon. Friend that the current quota system is counter-productive with regard to discards. We have to recognise that discards happen for a number of reasons, but one of the key problems is that quotas are currently set for the amount of fish that is landed in port and not for the amount of fish that is actually caught.

I know that the Scottish fleet has worked extraordinarily hard in recent years to reduce discards. Since 2008, discards have declined by a third, which is a greater reduction than has been seen anywhere else, and it has been due in no small part to the introduction of real-time closures and the use of selective gears. However, while those have been very valuable mitigation measures, I do not think that anyone would argue that they have gone far enough. One in three cod caught in the North sea are still being discarded and discard rates are still unacceptably high. More than 14,000 tonnes of cod are still being dumped. That means that more cod is actually being dumped into the North sea than can be landed in the whole of the UK.

That is an environmental outrage, but it is also economically disastrous. In the North sea in 2009, 60,000 tonnes of white fish were landed in Scotland, worth £68 million, but the total catches amounted to 88,000 tonnes. That means that almost 28,000 tonnes—potentially up to a third of the value of the Scottish cod, haddock, whiting, saith, plaice and hake catch—were thrown back into the sea. In financial terms, we could speculate that up to £33 million-worth of good fish was dumped last year. That is a criminal waste in economic and environmental terms, and I can assure Members that nothing creates greater anger and frustration in fishing communities.

With quotas set to be reduced further, discards are actually expected to rise next year. That is why we need to take seriously the success of the catch quota pilot schemes in Scotland and Denmark, which have been running in recent years, and build on those schemes in the years ahead. Those taking part in the pilots have been freed from certain effort restrictions and awarded higher quotas in return for fully monitoring and recording their catches, and avoiding discards. Those fishermen are removing fewer fish from the sea, but they are able to land more fish. It is a win-win situation for them; it keeps the cod recovery plan on track, while rewarding fishermen who do not discard. It is also providing valuable scientific data on what is actually going on in our seas, which is no small point of controversy.

[Mr MacNeil]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way again. She mentioned pilot programmes and programmes that we have had. Of course, on the west coast of Scotland we feel the great loss of the by-catch for dogfish, which I think should be looked at again. Particularly on the west coast, there is an awful lot of squid at the moment, but there are no ways for the fishermen to catch the squid. I hope that the Minister will look at enabling fishermen on the west coast of Scotland to get near that squid fishery at some point.

[Dr Whiteford]

My hon. Friend advocates well on behalf of his constituents.

I think that it is recognised that catch quotas are no panacea for the white fish fleet. They will help to mitigate the most damaging social and economic impacts of this year’s expected quota cuts and reduce discard levels further, allowing our fishermen to catch less and land more, but in order to take things to the next level, we need the opportunity to trial a mixed-species catch quota option. The North sea is really a mixed fishery, and we need to consider the ecosystem as a whole. I hope that the UK Government will pursue a full catch quota system for cod in the year ahead. I also urge the Government to secure options to trial catch quotas for other species such as haddock, whiting or plaice. If fishermen are to reap the full benefits of their conservation efforts, the Government must secure changes in the management regime.

Over the past decade, the Scottish white fish fleet has more than halved as the industry has attempted to place itself on a more commercially and ecologically viable footing. We must start rewarding our fishermen for successful conservation efforts and recognise their central role in managing and conserving our fishing resources. In my experience, it is fishermen themselves who want a whole-ecosystem approach to fisheries management. They see the dangers of displacement and know only too well that cack-handed management measures have unintended consequences for them and for the marine environment.

It is also important to remember that the quota reductions likely to affect the white fish fleet next year will have a knock-on effect on processers, some of which are already under pressure from the impact of the recession on global markets and the reduced availability of quotas. In such circumstances, the argument for extending the catch quota scheme next year is compelling, and I hope that the Government will pursue it vigorously.

The other big issue that I want to address is the so-called mackerel war between Iceland and the Faroe Islands and the rest of Europe. I have welcomed previous assurances that the Minister is not minded to acquiesce to the unreasonable demands of Iceland and the Faroe Islands for huge chunks of the global mackerel quota and is keeping pressure on the European Commission not to cave in on the issue. As he knows, about 60% of the UK pelagic fleet is based in my constituency. I have been in regular contact with pelagic fishermen and their representatives during recent months, as I know he has, and they keep saying to me that they want a negotiated settlement, but not at any price.

Mackerel is the UK’s most valuable fish stock. It is also one of the most sustainably managed. Iceland and the Faroe Islands have awarded themselves quotas amounting to 37% of the total allowable catch. Their grossly irresponsible actions are jeopardising the sustainability of the stock and threatening the Marine Stewardship Council accreditation that the pelagic fleet worked so hard to achieve. Our fishermen accept that there are mackerel in Icelandic waters and that Iceland is entitled to some quota, but they argue rightly that that quota must be proportionate and in line with the long-term management plans that exist to protect the stock. There can be no doubt that the increase in mackerel in Icelandic waters is attributable to the successful implementation of conservation measures elsewhere in the North sea. I do not want that work to be undone in order to give Iceland an expedient political payoff.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

Does the hon. Lady agree that the acquisition of 185,000 tonnes of mackerel is akin to piracy on the high seas and should be objected to in every forum by the Minister?

[Dr Whiteford]

I agree 100%. In my view, appeasement of the unreasonable demands of Iceland and the Faroe Islands will lead only to further demands. The EU must not reward behaviour that has been utterly reckless in conservation terms.

We must remember that our fishermen have absolutely nothing to gain in the negotiations; they can only lose out from any deal struck. Nevertheless, they see that their own long-term interests depend on the long-term health of stocks, so they want us as politicians to hold our nerve and stand firm for a fair and equitable resolution of the issue.

On the subject of mackerel, one of the most frustrating aspects of European fisheries policy is that while our fishermen have made strenuous efforts to fish sustainably, they have seen other member states flouting the conservation targets. Spain overfished its mackerel quota by 296% last year, yet the Commission has taken no action against it. I am unable to explain to the fishermen in my constituency why fishermen in some parts of the EU can flout the rules and regulations with impunity while they face serious sanctions if they do so. I hope that the Minister will take up the issue of Spanish overfishing with the Commission and work with other member states towards more sustainable fisheries in all EU waters.

Sea fishing has the inherent potential to be both a sustainable and a profitable industry. Those goals are sometimes in tension, but I think that most people in fishing communities and the industry recognise that over the long term, they go hand in hand. Our fishing communities deserve better representation from UK Governments than they have had. Too often, fishing has been a bargaining chip in bigger negotiations. It has not had anything like the priority that it deserves. I hope that that will change. I wish the Minister well in the forthcoming round of talks, and in opening the debate this afternoon, I urge him to put the economic, environmental and social sustainability of our fishing industry and coastal communities at the heart of his Government’s approach.

14:39

[Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) on opening this debate. I echo her comments that it should be in the main Chamber and not in Westminster Hall. This is the 10th annual fisheries debate that I have attended, and it is only the second that has not been held in the main Chamber. I hope that in future years, the Backbench Business Committee will put this debate in the main Chamber, where it rightfully belongs.

As the hon. Lady said, fishing is a dangerous occupation, and it would certainly be uncomfortable to be on a fishing boat on a bitterly cold day like today. This is my 10th annual debate. Unfortunately, the issues do not change much. Agreement at these debates is always widespread that the common fisheries policy has failed and needs radical reform.

We must move away from centralised decision making by the Commission and towards a decentralised system of regional management committees involving fishermen, scientists and fisheries managers from member states. Only by decentralising decision making will we ever get a system that sustains both fish and fishermen.

I stress that we need a common fisheries policy. The actions of Iceland and the Faroe Islands on mackerel show what would happen if there were a free-for-all and each member state could do its own thing. We need a common fisheries policy, but it must be based on regional management, not centralised decision making from Brussels.

Discards are an obvious example of why the present common fisheries policy is failing both fish and fishermen. The European Commission is well aware of the problem; its cod recovery plan is based on the assumption that 30% to 40% of cod taken from the sea will be discarded. There is something wrong with a system that makes such an assumption. Decentralising decision making to those most affected by the decisions must be the way forward. Fishermen are well aware of the need to sustain stocks over the long term.

[Mr MacNeil]

I am listening with interest to what the hon. Gentleman is saying about decentralising fisheries, but I have been hearing it since I came to Parliament five years ago. Nothing really happens; fishing is still controlled by the common fisheries policy at a European level. Other than national control, will we really see any change in the next five years, or will we hear further rhetoric from politicians saying that we must change?

[Mr Reid]

As I explained in my speech, national control would not work either. Because Iceland and the Faroe Islands are outside the EU, they are behaving utterly irresponsibly. National control would lead to exactly the same thing. We need a common fisheries policy, but it must be based on decentralisation and determined by sea basins rather than member states’ boundaries; that is the way forward.

I share the hon. Gentleman’s frustration. This is his sixth annual debate, but it is my 10th. We must resolve the issue. I would hope that the Governments of all EU countries will recognise that and move towards a decentralised system in the next round of common fisheries policy reform. The regional advisory councils are a start, but they must be given much more power to take local decisions.

By far the most important species for fishermen living off the west coast of Scotland is nephrops. Fishermen in the area are extremely concerned by the Commission’s proposed 15% cut in total allowable catch. If implemented, it will have a terrible effect on employment in the west coast fishing industry for both fishermen and fish processing workers. Although fishing on the west coast has declined in recent years, it is still an important part of the local economy.

[Mr MacNeil]

The hon. Gentleman raises an important point about the 15% TAC cut in nephrops on the west coast of Scotland. Does he agree that it is also important for the under-10 metre sector that the cut is not implemented?

[Mr Reid]

I agree that it is important for the entire west coast fishing fleet that the cut in TAC does not go ahead. We must remember that the proposed 15% cut would follow several cuts that have been made in recent years—a 15% cut was proposed last year and went through—so it is a reduction of more than 15% on the catch of a few years ago.

To add to the problems of the Clyde fishermen, the proposed cut in the Irish sea quota is even higher. The Clyde fishermen are concerned that sea vessels that normally fish in the Irish sea will come to the Clyde instead to fish for prawns, as has already been witnessed. The Clyde Fishermen’s Association is concerned about that and estimates that those additional vessels will increase the fishing effort in the Clyde by about 30%. That additional effort will come out of a TAC that could well be cut by 15%, so it does not take much arithmetic to work out that there will not be much quota left for Clyde-based fishermen in their home waters.

What makes those cuts even more frustrating is that nephrop stocks off the west coast are healthy. That is recognised by all. The problem that the Commission envisages is cod by-catch, but it does not appear to take into account the fact that cod by-catch resulting from fishing for nephrops is tiny. It also does not appear to take into account the other measures that have been taken to reduce by-catch. The weekend fishing ban on the Clyde, for example, further limits the days at sea, and there have recently been increases in mesh size and the introduction of the new OMEGA measuring gauge. A TAC cut of 15%, combined with the effects of stocks being taken by visiting vessels, will result in a severe blow for the Clyde fishing industry. I urge the Minister to make it his prime objective when he goes to Brussels to get that cut reversed. The TAC must remain where it is if fishing in the Clyde is to survive.

14:52

[Mr Frank Doran (Aberdeen North) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) not only on securing the debate, but on giving the shortest opening speech I have ever heard in a fisheries debate, and I have been attending them since 1987. The reason why it was so short is that she is not the Minister.

I want to preface my comments on the industry by making a point that needs to be addressed. The annual fisheries debate used to take place in the Chamber on a Government motion; that was the case long before 1987. I and many other Members assumed that that is what would happen this year, because it is an extremely important industry, as those who represent coastal communities know. I was shocked to be told when I contacted the Minister’s office that “the Department could not organise a debate.” The same words were used in a letter the Minister wrote to the hon. Lady. I was at pains to find out why that was so, particularly when it concerned such an important industry and at such an important time, just a few days before the Brussels summit.

This is not a party political point, because I am sure that the previous Government would have been just as guilty in the same circumstances, but the Government Whips seem to have taken all the departmental debates, such as this one, including the five defence days, and loaded them into the days allocated to the Backbench Business Committee for the business it proposes. It seems that what was intended to extend democracy for Back Benchers and give them more debating days has been hijacked by the Government to offload debates that were previously held in Government time.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Doran]

I will finish my point, because I know what the Minister is going to say. When I questioned Government Whips on that, I was told that the appropriate number of days had been allocated to the Backbench Business Committee. That might be true in a normal year—we have yet to see a normal year—but this year will not be normal because it will extend into 2012. I will say no more about that, but it is important, particularly to the fishing industry, which in many respects often seems to be a Cinderella industry.

[Richard Benyon]

I will set out the situation from my perspective. I hope that the hon. Gentleman understands that I relish the opportunity to address the House on this important issue and that there is absolutely no inclination on the Government’s part to hide from the debate. There was a debate last week in Backbench Business Committee time on the regulation of independent financial advisers. I think that today’s debate has attracted much more interest from MPs, not only those who represent coastline constituencies, but those who care about our marine environment. I hope that the strength of feeling that the hon. Gentleman has expressed, and which I and other hon. Members will express, will be pointed out to the Committee so that we can get a response.

[Albert Owen (in the Chair)]

Order. Can we get back to the matter of fishing?

[Mr Doran]

I welcome the Minister’s remarks and was not targeting him specifically—

[Mr MacNeil]

He was a by-catch.

[Mr Doran]

That is a very good point. A number of Members have indicated that they want to speak, so I will say no more on that point. The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan covered many of the points that I wanted to cover, so I do not intend to say much. I hope that we will have an opportunity to hear the Minister give his review of the year and set out the Government’s plans and the position they will take at the Fisheries Council meeting on 13 December on all the important issues that will be raised today.

The general point I want to make is that it has been a difficult year for the fishing industry. The hon. Lady mentioned that 13 fishermen have been lost at sea this year, and every year that figure is shockingly high. It is the most unsafe of all the industries in the UK. I know that the industry makes serious attempts to improve its safety record, but the problem tends to lie with individual vessels, and it is difficult to enforce safety measures. I do not know how we can get the message across, but we need to do much more to improve safety.

The pelagic fisheries have been mentioned, and there is a serious problem in that regard. The idea that one country can put a gun to the head of the whole of Europe, in the way that the Icelanders seem to be doing to get whatever they want—I am not quite sure what they want—is a serious problem. We had the opportunity in the all-party group on fisheries to meet representatives of the Scottish pelagic fisheries, who made it clear how difficult that is for the industry and how much they want to see the problem resolved, but not through concessions to Iceland.

[Mr MacNeil]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Doran]

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will have the opportunity to make his own contribution.

Another serious problem this year, particularly for the Scottish fleet, has been the Isle of Man’s decision to limit scallop fishing. Financial pressures are beginning to tell. I am told that up to 41 vessels from the white fish fleet—almost a third of a fleet of 120—are likely to be decommissioned over the next year, which is a sign of the difficulty imposed on the fleet by the limited fishing opportunities allowed by the current CFP arrangements. The Seafood Scotland website, which I looked at while preparing for the debate, reported in news releases for June and July this year that, for a number of vessels, nearly all the days at sea had been used up, so the end of year fishing will be limited. That puts pressure on other links in the chain of the fishing industry.

My main interest in the fishing industry is in the processing side. The Aberdeen fleet is turning to fish elsewhere. The processing industry has serious problems with the fluctuations in the provision of raw material. There is continuing uncertainty over the progress of reform in the common fisheries policy, manpower changes in the Commission, the lack of news about the proposals that are to be laid and the politics of it all. Whenever we discuss such matters with the industry, there is no sense that there will be any sensible breakthrough that will reform the way in which we operate at the moment. There are so many problems with the common fisheries policy that it is difficult to know where to start. We know where we would like to be, but given the size of the opposing bloc in the European Union, there will be major difficulties in reaching any sensible decision to reform the policy.

On the positive side, there is, unquestionably, progress in the industry. The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan mentioned the Marine Stewardship Council. I remember being at its launch in 1997 at 4 Millbank, its UK branch, when people were saying, “Well, it’s not going to apply to us. Our fishermen are the last hunter-gatherers.” There was no sense that the council was going to be anything really positive for the industry. Since then, however, there has been a sea change in the way in which the industry views itself and functions, particularly in Scotland, which has led the way in the UK and in Europe. The industry has adjusted to the new environment—its massive gear changes, technical improvements and, most importantly, cultural change. The industry now talks about itself as harvesters rather than hunters. It knows that the stock that remains has to be sustainable, which is why there is so much anger about the way in which Iceland has operated. There is also much anger about other issues such as the by-catches and the waste of resource that is allowed under the current arrangements. Haddock and pelagic stocks are now MSC-approved, which does huge things for the marketing opportunities for my fish processers as well as for others.

The other positive thing—I know that it sounds confusing to call it positive—is that trials are under way in Scotland of fishermen who have broken the rules and regulations in relation to black fish. Some 15 fishermen or vessel owners have been convicted and are awaiting sentence. How can I possibly present that as good news? Well, for most of the time that I have been speaking in these debates, black fish has been a key issue, which meant that our industry was not properly regulated. A combination of effort from various Government bodies, Grampian police and others has seen black fish put into its coffin, which is a good thing. It should have happened many years ago.

Earlier, I mentioned that the biggest problem facing the fish processing side of the industry is the availability of raw material. I know that an industry such as the one in Aberdeen that relied on white fish—haddock principally but cod as well—now deals with a whole range of products. The uncertainty makes life very difficult. My fish processers also make it clear to me that their relationship with fish catchers is not always easy. The catchers think that the processers steal the food out of their babies’ mouths, and something similar is said in the other direction. None the less, at the end of the day, they know that they are linked, and the processers now recognise, as much as the catchers, the need for a sustainable industry, but they want one with more certainty.

The skills of the people in the industry is an issue, not least because the flow of new people is drying up, particularly in Aberdeen. Fish processing work is mainly done by workers from east Europe and China, who have the skills, work hard and sustain the industry. Very few young people from the UK or Scotland are coming into the industry and learning the skills that their parents and grandparents learned and passed on.

The hygiene regulations, which mostly come from Europe, are expensive and costly for the industry. Over a number of years, there has been regulation after regulation and that causes difficulty. The processers are keen to point out that unlike the fish catchers, they do not get any decommissioning costs in return.

Let me say a few words about the way in which the debate in the industry has changed. As secretary of the all-party group on fisheries, I can say that we have become much more engaged with external bodies, such as the World Wildlife Fund and GLOBE International, of which many Members of this House are members. The organisation Baltic Sea 2020, which is based in Stockholm, is now interested both in functioning in the North sea and in the common fisheries policy.

I return to my point about the change in culture in the industry. Representatives of WWF and of GLOBE International spoke at our all-party group a week or so ago. It was fascinating to hear them because they were speaking almost the same language as our fishing industry representatives, and that is a sign of how much things have moved on. Certainly, reading the presentations of both organisations, they are presenting arguments to Brussels that we would want to see presented by our own Government.

I have one final word to say to the Minister. Despite my outburst at the start of my contribution, I know that he is doing a good job and that he will do a good job in Brussels. I wish him well in all his travails and hope that at the end of it all he will get some sleep.

15:07

[Sheryll Murray (South East Cornwall) (Con)]

I have to declare a special interest because my husband is the owner and skipper of an under-10-metre commercial trawler operating out of the port of Looe in my constituency.

I have seen the difficulties facing the industry over a number of years. People seem to forget that each commercial fishing vessel represents a small business. I pay tribute to the work of the Royal National Mission to Deep Sea Fishermen, and my heart goes out to those fishermen who have lost their lives trying to put the fry on our plate.

I thank the Backbench Business Committee for securing this debate, but I, too, am disappointed that it did not feel that it could take place in the main Chamber, as it has in the past. I hope that time will be found during 2011 to allow a full debate on the Floor of the House on the review of the CFP in 2012. That is important to the fishing industry, the marine environment and fish stocks.

I praise the Minister for showing great determination in setting out his case for root-and-branch reform of the present destructive common fisheries policy. Perhaps he will tell us about the support that he has secured from other member states that share his view. He may also be able to tell us about the member states that have indicated that they want a simple review of Council Regulation No. 2371/2002 and a continuation of article 17, which contains the disastrous principle of equal access to a common resource.

At each Council, the EU TAC for each precious stock is decided. Fishermen from my constituency work from, and are supported by businesses in, Looe, Polperro and the Rame peninsula. They fish in ICES—International Council for the Exploration of the Sea—area VIIe, and the species they catch include area VII lemon sole, squid and cuttlefish, which are non-precious stocks. However, the Commission has proposed a 15% reduction in cod, pollack and anglerfish, which is often known as monkfish, in the area, and fishermen there rely on those stocks.

The Cornish Fish Producers Organisation has written that the Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science and the Irish Sea Fisheries Board have indicated that there are signals in their official surveys of good recruitment of cod. That seems to corroborate the observations of fishermen, who are reporting a high abundance of cod in the 30 to 40 cm range. There is a strong scientific argument for saying that this stock should fit into Commission policy statement category 8, with an increase in TAC of up to 15% and no increase in effort. I urge the Minister to speak to his counterparts from France, Belgium and Ireland and to make representations to the Commission to introduce an increase, as opposed to the proposed reduction.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

On the point about cod around the coast of Cornwall, may I confirm from my conversations with fishermen from my constituency in west Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly that there is an abundance of cod? In recent weeks, many of those who have targeted other fisheries have found that three out of every four fish are cod of the recruitment class that the hon. Lady described. I strongly endorse the message that she has articulated, and I hope that the Minister will make sure that it is strongly communicated in the negotiations.

[Sheryll Murray]

I thank my hon. Friend for that support.

Pollack is very important to fishermen using static nets. There is no ICES advice on pollack, yet the Commission has proposed cutting the TAC to average recent catch levels. That approach could have unintended effects on relative stability and increase discards in individual member states, thus prejudicing fisheries-dependent scientific data.

If we reduce a TAC when there is an abundance of fish, fishermen will end up discarding fish they cannot land. Many species suffer what could be described as the bends when discarded, and they die. A parliamentary answer from the former Minister responsible for fisheries on 21 October 2008 confirmed that statistics at the time showed that 117 million of the estimated 186 million fish caught in area VII were discarded, and many may not have survived.

There is a real argument for requiring all marketable fish to be landed. Over-quota fish could be sold on the market, fishermen could be compensated for their expenses and the remaining proceeds could be invested in developing environmentally friendly fishing gear and good fisheries science. It would be interesting to know whether the Minister has sought agreement from the European Commission to run pilot schemes to identify whether such an approach would work.

The argument that too many fishermen are chasing too few fish has been used for the past 30 years. I accept that we cannot allow the fleet to continue to fish unregulated, but it does not always follow that setting a low TAC will rectify the situation. Under past regulations, quotas have been reduced year on year, with many now less than 50% of levels in 1999. According to UK sea fisheries statistics, the number of English fishermen has fallen from 7,166 to 5,358 since then, while the number of vessels fell from 7,818 in 2000 to 6,500 in 2009. A decade later, however, we hear calls for further reductions in fleet size and fishing activity.

On the UK quota management regime, I fully acknowledge that the Minister has inherited a difficult situation, particularly in relation to the under-10-metre fleet. Will he confirm that the quota management rules published on the Department’s website have a legitimate standing in the UK? Had his predecessor used rule 19 to rectify the underestimate of the catch by fishermen in the under-10-metre sector in area IV, we may not have seen their quota expire earlier this year and the mackerel hand-line quota swapped to obtain fish to keep those fishermen working. That led to a critical situation regarding the hand-line mackerel quota a few weeks ago, and additional quota had to be obtained for that species. I would be interested to hear from the Minister from which source the additional 50 tonnes of mackerel were secured.

Finally, let me mention the recently approved special areas of conservation and the ongoing consultation on the four marine protected zone pilot projects. Despite a budget of £4,116,685 for consultations on those four projects, fishermen are still sceptical and suspicious. I fully accept that the designation may not result in any restrictions on fishing activity in those zones, but will the Minister confirm that he will take account of the fact that they contain sites for the disposal of dredged material permitted under Food and Environment Protection Act 1985 licences issued by his Department? If any restriction on fishing activity is considered in any of those zones, I ask that it take place only after we have ensured that an end to the further use of those dump sites is guaranteed.

My hon. Friend has inherited a difficult task, and I applaud his determination to secure a future for our marine environment and our fishing industry. Although fisheries may not be regarded as a large employer nationally, many coastal communities rely on the industry. I wish my hon. Friend well in the negotiations over the coming weeks and I thank him for the support that he has already shown the industry.

15:17

[Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Owen. I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to an annual fisheries debate after several years of the Trappist-like silence that comes with ministerial office. I congratulate those Members who persuaded the Backbench Business Committee to allocate time for this timely debate. I welcome the Minister to his new role and to his first annual fisheries debate. I also welcome my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) to his new responsibilities.

Like every speaker today, I want to place on record my disappointment at the fact that the debate is not taking place on the Floor of the House in Government time. That is not only my view, but the view of fishermen I spoke to at the weekend, who said that that is an indication of the lack of importance that Government attach to the fishing industry. I say “Government” rather than “this Government” because the problem is not just with this Government. There is a view that successive Governments have let the fishing industry down.

That is no criticism of the very good things that the Labour party did when it was in office or of individual Fisheries Ministers; in my time in office, we were well served by Fisheries Ministers. In their own ways, the former Members for Scunthorpe and for Chatham and Aylesford, my right hon. Friend the Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) and my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies) were committed to the job that they had, and they did it to the very best of their ability. I do not want to blot the current Minister’s copybook too early, but I am hearing good things about him, too, and I sincerely wish him well in one of the most difficult posts in the Government. It is one of the few ministerial jobs that hardly any Back-Bench MPs envy because they recognise how difficult it is. In the previous Government, my right hon. and hon. Friends worked within the straitjacket of the common fisheries policy, just as the current Minister does. That policy has overseen the managed decline of the fishing industry, and it has not been done well.

There is a fishing fleet in my constituency, mainly based in North Shields. It consists of one boat that is over 10 metres long and about a dozen boats under 10 metres. Unusually, the infrastructure associated with a fishing port is still there—we have engineers, buyers and the fish market, as well as the excellent work of the Royal National Mission to Deep Sea Fishermen, under the inspirational leadership of Peter Dade. We have the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, and until recently we had the coastguard, although unfortunately no more. There have been recent developments in a series of regenerated buildings, and a number of excellent restaurants that make the fish quay a vibrant place.

Those in the fishing industry, however, find survival increasingly difficult and look to the Government—of whatever persuasion—and to Parliament for a lead and support. The annual fisheries debate is held before the Minister goes to the Fisheries Council, where the fishing quotas are essentially set. To the outsider, that appears to be a kind of international maritime game of happy families, where quotas are swapped but nobody comes out particularly happy at the end. From those quotas, fishermen in our constituencies must make their livelihood and live within the regime that has been created.

Fishermen in my constituency want reassurances that the Minister will get the best possible deal at the Council. In particular, I want to mention the whiting quota, which has already been referred to. I understand that there is a proposal for a 15% cut in whiting, although that goes against the view held by fishermen I know who tell me that stocks are relatively good. Far from a 15% cut to the quota, they were hoping for an increase of about the same amount. The Minister and his officials should not be swayed by the idea of an unused quota held by the Norwegians being a sign of limited stocks. It is not as simple as that. If there is a cut across the board, or a particularly severe cut to the whiting quota, it will be difficult for some fishermen to survive.

[Dr Whiteford]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that it is important that unused quota is not simply given up during this round of negotiations so that we retain that bargaining position for future negotiations?

[Mr Campbell]

I agree, but it is easy for me—and, with respect, for the hon. Lady—to say that. To an extent, some of my remarks will work against one another. It is an extremely complex and difficult issue, which is why I do not envy the Minister his job. The hon. Lady makes an important point, just as she made an excellent speech.

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

I would like confirmation on what the hon. Gentleman said about whiting. The view taken by fishermen in North Shields, and shared by those in Amble, is that whiting is currently a plentiful species. None of those fishermen have any quota left for whiting at the moment, and a reduction in the quota would be an awful prospect.

[Mr Campbell]

Indeed. I also want to gently warn the Minister against changes in quota and I will give two examples. A number of years ago, when I was able to take part in the fisheries debate, I spoke about the cuts to the cod quota. At the time, North Shields fishermen were heavily dependent on the prawn quota, and warned that there would inevitably be displacement, with boats coming from Scotland and Yorkshire. That is exactly what happened to the prawn grounds off the Northumberland coast. In areas such as the Farn Deeps, off the coast of the constituency of the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), there has been great pressure on the prawn grounds. As a result, there have been declining catches over the past four to five years.

The second unintended consequence of changing the quotas is that we end up with the terrible situation of discards, which many hon. Members have spoken about this afternoon. Fishermen who reach their quota of mixed fishes have little chance to do anything other than throw the fish back. Discards are obscene, and environmental madness. I hope that the Minister will reaffirm that discards will be a priority in the reform of the CFP, and that at long last we will do something about the situation.

There is a sense of urgency about the reform of the CFP after 2012, and I hope that the Minister will bear three things in mind. First, we need a long-term approach, rather than an annual quota. The North Sea Regional Advisory Council Advice to the Commission mentioned a 10 to 15-year plan. That was based on the experiences of multi-annual arrangements with Norway, which have proved a better way of conserving stock than the annual quota negotiations in which we take part.

Secondly, we must ensure that policy is led by science, and acknowledge that disputes do not necessarily come from the science itself and the views of fishermen, but rather because of the way in which the science is interpreted, particularly by the Commission. That leads to fishermen’s suspicion that the Commission is not prepared to listen to the other side of the argument.

The third point has already been made, but I want to emphasise the importance of environmental considerations. During debates on fisheries—this may happen at the great debate in the Council—there is a danger of always seeing fishermen and scientists on opposite sides in a great battle to see who can dominate policy. The fishermen I know are passionate about the maritime environment; they choose to work and make a living in it, and if it was simply an economic matter, it would not make sense for them to continue doing that. Therefore, we should pay tribute to the contribution that fishermen make to the debate on environmental matters.

Most fishermen I know support the marine protection areas, but it is reasonable for them to ask why we are rushing to put those areas in place by 2012. They also recognise the pressure on our energy resources, and acknowledge that offshore wind farms will be an important part of renewable energy. Again, however, it is reasonable to ask what the effect will be of an offshore wind farm that runs from St Mary’s in the north of my constituency to Blyth. That seems to squeeze the fishermen out of areas that would otherwise be potential fishing grounds.

I conclude by mentioning another aspect of the Minister’s work. His job is not only to go to Europe and argue the case for UK fishermen, but to argue the case within government. Regional development agencies have not been universally popular in everything they set out to do and, not surprisingly, they have not been universally successful. However, One North East in the north-east was getting a good reputation and winning the respect of many fishermen, even those who were sceptical about the political process. I argued with One North East about the need for a regional fisheries policy. After the south-west, the north-east is the most important English region for fishing.

We got support for projects such as the restoration of the west quay in North Shields, and the general regeneration of the fish quay. However, one early effect of getting rid of RDAs and reducing funding was the ending of a grant to the seafood training centre in North Shields. Perhaps naively, part of my response was to go to the local authority and ask what it was prepared to do, since we understood that local authorities were going to be the basis for local enterprise partnerships. It told me that all it was able to do was facilitate discussions about the centre, and that there was no money. The result was that the centre downsized and went to Amble in the constituency of the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed. His gain is very much our loss, although I understand that the centre is pretty much a shadow of the operation that existed in my constituency. That was an example of a response to a situation. We know about the difficulties in public finances, but hitting the traditional skills, and the safety skills being taught at the centre, had an unintended consequence on an already hard-hit fishing industry.

I shall conclude simply by saying this. Between 700 and 800 people in my constituency are still directly or indirectly employed as a result of the fishing industry. Like me, they look to the Minister—I wish him well—and to the Government to do everything that they can to ensure that their jobs survive.

15:30

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

I should not need to congratulate the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) on having made the case for securing this important debate because, as has been said, we should, by rights, have had this debate in the main Chamber.

At this stage, I need to apologise, Mr Owen—I apologised to the Minister in advance—and explain that the timing of the debate, which is taking place on a Thursday afternoon, is particularly challenging for many MPs from far-flung constituencies, where fishing primarily takes place, and that because of the transport problems that I shall encounter in getting to the far west of Cornwall this evening, I may have to leave just before the debate concludes. In view of that, I will do my utmost to keep my remarks brief.

On top of the excellent points made by my honourable colleague the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) about issues affecting our region, I want to make a number of other points. The Minister is aware of them because I sent him a note to give him notice. First, I simply want to embellish and emphasise my honourable colleague’s point about the swapping of the mackerel hand-line quota during the autumn of this year. This is one of the most productive times of the year for mackerel hand-liners.

[Sheryll Murray]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the mackerel hand-liners pursue a very ecologically friendly fishery, and for them to lose the quota when they are fishing in such a sustainable way was doubly disastrous?

[Andrew George]

Absolutely. My honourable colleague has anticipated the point that I was due to make, which is that that is a very sustainable fishery. Over the years, previous Ministers will have been aware of the work of mackerel hand-liners and those who support their work. It is also a Marine Stewardship Council-certified fishery. Given that, it is acknowledged that it should be taken out of the quota system altogether. I hope that there will be opportunities for the Minister to explore that in the negotiations in which he gets involved. We are talking about people who are engaged in the use of a line rather than a net. It is a selective fishery. It does not involve tremendous power, but just the brawn, generally, of the men—and women occasionally—who are engaged in it to haul their catch aboard. It is a very primitively based fishery.

[Richard Benyon]

May I respond to that point and to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) on hand-line mackerel in the south-west? That is an under-exploited fishery and was considered good currency for swaps in the past. I concede that it was over-extended this year in terms of use of that currency. However, I can assure my hon. Friends that we will look very carefully at and work very closely with hand-line mackerel fishermen in future years to ensure that we know precisely what they think they will need and what is available as a currency swap. We will try to get it done better next year.

[Andrew George]

I am very grateful to the Minister for that intervention and much reassured. He replied to me on 17 November about the issues that I raised on behalf of the industry in Cornwall. I understand that what was undertaken was not done at his discretion, but was undertaken by the Marine Management Organisation, perhaps on his behalf. The point that I think he fully understands now is that it was undertaken without any consultation or negotiation with the mackerel hand-liners themselves. There was no effort at all to engage with them before the decision was taken to reduce their quota—to swap their quota—which put them in a parlous position. That is clearly absurd, given that it is the very type of fishery that we should be trying to encourage, not discourage.

My next point—again, I have given the Minister a note on it—is about protecting the engineless, under-10-metre fleet from having to face the regulations that other fisheries face. We have a very low-impact fishery in the Fal estuary—the Fal oyster fishery—which my honourable colleague the Member for South East Cornwall is well aware of. That is a sailboat-based fishery; no engined boats are engaged in the oyster fishery in the Fal. It is a Truro-based fishery. Travel difficulties have meant that my hon. Friend the Member for Truro and Falmouth (Sarah Newton) is unable to be here, but had she been here, she would have been arguing this case as well. I know that the European Commission will be reviewing the exemptions that have been granted to that fishery and potentially others.

The Minister will be aware of another fishery that is in my constituency—the traditional St Ives Jumbo fishery. Those traditional boats, which have been rebuilt in recent years and are extremely popular in St Ives bay, are a potential source of income. They, too, are engineless, 7-metre vessels, which have a very low impact on their environment. I hope that the Minister will consider very carefully the case that people will be making in that respect.

The Minister will also be aware that excellent work has been going on in the south-west, including Cornwall, with the Finding Sanctuary initiative. The purpose of that is to bring together stakeholders—fishermen and other industries, as well as environmentalists and scientists—to help to identify the potential for candidate marine conservation zones, which will be registered under the Marine and Coastal Access Act 2009. However, a great deal of concern has been expressed to me by stakeholders that there has been insufficient instruction, advice and guidance to those engaged in the stakeholder consultation, in that all the industries that will be affected by the proposed candidate marine conservation zones are in effect adding a number of assumptions whenever they agree to those potential candidate zones. They are being led along the garden path to saying, “Yes, we agree with this, on the assumption that we can carry on doing x, y or z,” whether that be aggregate dredging, towing gear in a particular area in the fishing industry or, in the recreational boating or yachting community, anchoring in a particular area in certain conditions.

Of course, all those assumptions are being accepted and recorded in the process, but there has been insufficient instruction from the Department to guide people in that process. I suspect that confidence in the registration of the marine conservation zones—and indeed the MPAs—will be significantly undermined if and when, further down the track, it becomes clear to stakeholders engaged in the process that not all the assumptions that they have had recorded in the process can be granted when the marine conservation zones are finally designated.

The Minister and I debated this issue during the Committee that considered the Marine and Coastal Access Bill. It was always my concern that stakeholders should be entitled to have a significant say on the management of the zones, as well as on the designation of them. Their designation is important, but it is important to recognise that their management is as well.

I wish to make two broad points on the negotiations that the Minister will go to in a couple of weeks—the December Council. One is on the issue that my honourable colleague the Member for South East Cornwall raised about cod. The overarching point is about the basis of the science from which the proposals for the recommended TACs come. In the case of cod, there has been the tremendous success of the initiative—which was actually industry-led—to close the Trevose grounds off the north coast of Cornwall during the early months of each year, which has been happening for more than four years. We believe—although there is insufficient science to be able to put two and two together, as it were, and to draw conclusions—that, as a result that, there appears to be very significant recruitment of cod around the coast.

The enormous abundance of cod is astonishing, especially for the inshore fleet in our area, and entirely echoes the point that my honourable colleague the Member for South East Cornwall made. For example, my constituent, Chris Bean, who has the Lady Hamilton, which is well known in our area, has had scientists from CEFAS aboard his boat for the past three weeks. They have witnessed the same things that he has; in spite of the fact that he is not targeting cod, three out of every four fish that he catches are cod—landable and of a good size. However, he cannot land them because the quota for cod is absolutely minuscule. As my honourable colleague knows, the British fleet has a tiny fraction of the available quota in area VII, because the other nations seem to take the lion’s share—especially the French.

[Sheryll Murray]

Under the relative stability allocation, we secured 8% of the total EU TAC for cod in area VIIe. I endorse what my honourable colleague has said, and I would like to make him aware that things are even worse in area VIIe because of our very small starting point.

[Andrew George]

I am grateful to my honourable colleague for that intervention. It emphasises the point, although I do not think that the negotiations at the December Council will be an opportunity to reopen the issue of relative stability. I do not wish to cause earthquakes in Scotland as a result of suggesting that we do that now.

The issue goes back to the ‘70s and the basis on which, and how, we entered the European Union. That and the basis of our involvement in the common fisheries policy left us with a legacy that has created a complete absurdity. We are not saving any cod. Cod, due to their nature, are bottom fish. They suffer from the bends, so when they are thrown back they are dead. There is no question about that, and not a single life is saved as a result.

The Minister will have received representations from the Cornish Fish Producers Organisation. This is repeating the point that I have made to Ministers in the past on spurdog and porbeagle: zero quotas on both of those do not save a single porbeagle or spurdog. What we need is recognition that it is good for science, as well as for the industry, at least to record what is being caught, even if we do not realise the market value of the fish. I will not go into the detail of what is proposed by the CFPO on spurdog and porbeagle, but I think that it certainly has a good case on landing and recording every porbeagle over 2 metres, and that equally applies to every spurdog over 1 metre.

We need to have a further debate in future; I hope in Government time in the new year. The common fisheries policy has been mentioned on a number of occasions, and it clearly underpins everything that we are discussing today. Given that we need to look at the future of the CFP post-2012, I hope that the Minister will agree to a debate. Members who have been able to get here today and those who could not get here to engage in this debate would like, as early as possible in the new year, to debate this on a cross-party basis. These debates are often consensual, as we have found today, and we could establish a British view on the future of the CFP: a view that, as my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) mentioned earlier, would be heavily based on a decentralised model—much more decentralised than now—with genuine management powers available to regional management committees.

The absurdity of using the blunt instrument of the quota regime has been highlighted by many Members. Quotas may be needed because it is not possible to distinguish between intended and unintended by-catch, and I am sure any regime would need an indicative quota of some sort, but it is vital that we look at other measures. [Interruption.] I am just about to finish but I am happy to give way.

[Zac Goldsmith (Richmond Park) (Con)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way and absolutely endorse what he has just said. Does he think that in addition to a more decentralised approach within the CFP, we should also have a much more forceful distinction in our policy response between the interests of smaller-scale, more traditional fishing communities and operations and the large factory fishing units? The interests of such units are not always aligned with those of conservationists and general mainland consumers, whereas the interests of the smaller fishing communities, as we have heard, are absolutely necessarily aligned with the interests of everyone else in the country. A clear and much more forceful policy distinction would reap great rewards.

[Andrew George]

I strongly support what my hon. Friend says. We have not debated, and do not have time to debate today, industrial fishing and fishing for animal feed, or the comparison between industrial scale fishing and the more artisanal approach, which I have also highlighted. I wish that we had an opportunity to debate the future of the CFP.

It was a pleasure for me to go along to support the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan on the Backbench Business Committee on 15 November in arguing that we should have at least this opportunity for debate. I am sorry that having said that I would be brief, I have taken a number of interventions and spoken for longer than I intended. I strongly endorse all the comments that other Members have made.

15:48

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) on bringing this issue to Westminster Hall and giving us all an opportunity to contribute. In passing, I want to comment on the fact that we do not have a Northern Ireland Member on the Backbench Business Committee. If we did, this issue certainly would have been brought to its attention and perhaps we would have had an earlier opportunity to discuss it.

This is my first debate on fisheries at Westminster, although as a Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly and in my former role as a councillor on Ards borough council I have had the opportunity to debate the issue in the past. I think the reason why we are here is that every one of us in the Chamber has a personal interest in fishing and in the communities we represent. The knowledge of fishing of many people outside of the Chamber will probably come from the TV programme, “Deadliest Catch”, or the film, “The Perfect Storm”. One is clearly factual and the other is fictional, but the fictional underlines the danger that fishermen face on the high seas.

Every Member in the Chamber will be aware of the December Fisheries Council and its ramifications for the UK fishing industry. In my local community, and particularly in Portavogie village, we will focus on its impact on the fishermen I represent. In the past, fishing representatives and I have taken the opportunity to speak to the Minister about the matter, as well as to Diane Dodds, Member of the European Parliament, in order to push things along.

I have been contacted by many local fishing organisations. Their representatives have reiterated that one of our problems is quayside prices, yet overheads continue to increase every year irrespective of the price. Fuel costs are another problem; the green tax has recently added another 2p per litre to our fuel prices. The plethora of fishing regulations challenge fishing vessel operators, and have led fishermen to wonder whether to stay in the industry. The latest problem in my constituency—and, I suspect, in others—is that even the smaller boats have to have monitoring equipment. The fishermen tell me that it costs them between £80 and £100 a month to run that operation. Again, costs continue to rise.

In my area, particularly in Portavogie, most of the men have worked on the boats and most of the ladies have worked in the village’s two fishing factories. However, one of those factories recently closed, and people have had to go outside the village for work. In the past—again, it is the changing face of industry—they would have gone to Donaghadee Carpets down the road, but that factory is no longer going; the industry has fallen away. The other choice for a good many was to work in the civil service, but it too is facing cuts.

Times are changing, and such opportunities do not always exist. If the fishing industry has to bear any more pressure, there is every chance of more fishermen leaving their boats. That will put a question mark over the other fishing factory in the village, which would leave even more people out of work. The December review of quotas is therefore most important. It is critical for the area that I represent, and everyone there is conscious of the fact. It is imperative that the fishing industry in Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom is treated fairly.

Does the European Commission treat British fishermen unfairly? A great many of us feel that it does. Indeed, UK officials have said in the past that they share that concern. We are not saying that we should be above the law, but we want to be treated like the rest of Europe—and Europe should be treated the same as us. I have concerns about how the industry is run, and I underline the need for a sustainable industry. As the hon. Member for Tynemouth (Mr Campbell) said, the fishermen want a sustainable industry as much as anybody else. That is what we are all about here, and there is consensus of opinion on that.

In Northern Ireland in 2010, we want to stay at the forefront of innovation, including the delivery of new state-of-the-art pelagic trawlers, which represent the pinnacle of Europe’s fishing industry. Significant investment in the onshore processing sector and in several modern prawn trawlers represents a vote of confidence in the future of this home-grown, privately owned industry. It is spending the money, so we need to ensure that it has Government support.

Other Members have commented on the common fisheries policy. It has to be changed, and no one here today would say differently. It behoves us all to shape that policy, and in 2012 we may have the opportunity to do so. Perhaps we will get it right, ensuring that the fishing industry is looked after. I am told by local industry organisations that UK Fisheries Ministers are telling the industry that fisheries management decisions must be based on the best available science. In 2010, we continue to have certain issues with the science, especially on the abundance of cod in the Irish sea. We find ourselves in a position where it is not so much the science that causes problems but the European Commission’s interpretation of it. That goes back to earlier comments.

It is not that there is a dispute between fishermen and the scientists; it is how the science is interpreted. I have a very simplistic way of looking at things, and I see what the fishermen tell me, but the figures in the scientists’ evidence show that the fishermen have the facts on their side. I urge the scientists to take that into consideration. We had the opportunity to present some facts and figures to the Minister three or four weeks ago, and I believe that the evidence that the fishermen presented to him was very much in our favour.

Things are further complicated by the application of the MSY—the maximum sustainable yield. That has less to do with science, but is a result of the political commitments signed at the Johannesburg sustainable conference in 2002. The political commitment is that fisheries must be managed through the MSY by 2015. As a result, many of the Commission’s total allowable catch proposals are less to do with negative science and more to do with the delivery of political aspirations. That worries me, as it could result in proposals—indeed, it is looking likely—for a quota reduction of 15% in 2011. Many have suggested such a figure.

I never fail to be astounded by some of the things that have happened to the fishing industry. The European Commission has proposed splitting the total allowable catch area that presently covers the whole of area VII—for us that is prawn fishing, which is a large part of our local industry—into seven TAC areas or quotas. That includes two areas in the Irish sea, and it will therefore have an impact on the industry that I represent. That approach is not viable, and not only because it will remove the flexibility that the fleet has to fish in various areas around Ireland; it is believed that it will undermine the sustainability of the stock.

These figures are ours. Science states that stock has increased by 8% in the past two years. However, we have figures showing that last winter and perhaps the winter before the seas were colder and many fish were returning. That is what the fishermen are telling me, and if they had such knowledge many others would agree. Whenever we approach the Minister to express our views on fishing, I am conscious that we could present 20 views, but rather than asking him to go to the December meeting with a wish list, it would probably be better to focus on three, so I shall comment on prawns, cod and herring.

Fishery scientists have been calling for the functional unit management of prawns for years, and the Commission has published what I called a non-paper. However, scientists agree with the industry to the extent that area VII prawns are already managed on a functional unit basis. Individual stocks in area VII are assessed, and an overall TAC figure is arrived at. The Commission wants to depart from that tried, tested and successful arrangement, and create new TAC quotas in seven functional units. The change will be dramatic, and it will put the industry under a lot of pressure.

Are we really overfishing? For the record, so that it can be read in Hansard, the organisation Seafish states that 25% of stocks are underexploited and 25% are overexploited. That said, if we add all the figures together from a fishing industry point of view—and, I suspect, from our point of view as Members—we would find that 75% of global fishing stocks were giving the maximum yield or could produce more. I suggest that those are the figures that we should focus on.

As was said earlier, the Commission’s change would remove the flexibility that has suited the industry and the stocks so well for many generations. For example, fishermen know that there are natural fluctuations in the stock from year to year, so if they start to fish for prawns in one part of area VII, but find the fishing slack, the current management allows the fishermen to migrate to another sea where the fishing is good. That might be to the Clyde. Fishermen from Northern Ireland have fished there for a great many years, and I hope that they will continue to do so—and I mean no disrespect to the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid). Pressure will be taken off the grounds where the fishing is poor, the grounds will recover, and the cycle will continue, but with the Commission’s approach, some fishermen will find themselves restricted to particular areas, and if fishing in that area is poor they will not be able to migrate. Pressure would be maintained in those areas, but with what effect on the stock?

The Commission, with the support of member states, has effectively created a single species fishery in the Irish sea that is dependent on prawns, but that fishery has been successfully managed through a system of self-regulation for decades. The compromise would seem to be documenting the success of the current self-regulatory system, and agreeing a long-term management plan for the area VII prawns, which would provide built-in safeguards for the stock and the fisheries that increasingly depend on that stock. A statement from the Fisheries Council advocating that approach would be our preferred way forward.

On cod recovery, I have to make a case for white fish and the cod men. Not too long ago, we had a fishing industry with 40 boats fishing for cod. We are now down to five. That is a cause for concern. The Commission proposes a 50% cut in the Irish sea TAC and another 25% cut in the number of days at sea. I do not know whether hon. Members are aware of any other industry where people are allowed to work only a certain number of days in the year. It is almost incredible.

When the long-term cod recovery regulation was agreed in November 2008, it contained a commitment to review the plan after three years. That review should occur in 2011. The industry was encouraged to hear recently from Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs officials that the review should be fundamental in nature and not, as the Commission previously suggested, an examination of the 2008 regulations.

In 2000, the Irish sea became the first European sea area to be subjected to EU cod recovery proposals. Overall, a sense of pessimism remains about the stock, despite observations from the fleet. A project instigated by Northern Ireland fishermen, with the support of Department of Agriculture and Rural Development fisheries scientists and funding, has proved that fishing gear deployed in the Irish sea by the local fishing fleet has exceeded ambitious targets on what the European Commission considers the most vulnerable fish stock—cod. During 2006 and 2007, fishermen discussed with local fisheries scientists various plans and ideas to address the problem. The result was launched in 2008, when fishermen from Kilkeel, Ardglass and Portavogie were trained to self-sample their catches. In addition, independent observers were employed to go to sea with trawlers to monitor catches to see what was retained on board and what was discarded.

At a recent meeting in Belfast, industry representatives were presented with the results of that pioneering work, which has become the biggest scientific fisheries sampling programme in any sea area around the United Kingdom. Before the latest evidence was obtained, the European Commission used models designed for fisheries in the North sea and elsewhere to estimate the amount of cod discarded in the Irish sea. Its guesstimate for 2008 was that 738 tonnes, or 80%, of all cod caught by Northern Ireland fishermen, had been discarded, but the scientific evidence, which the Department agreed, showed that the total discard by the entire Northern Ireland fishing fleet in 2008 was 2.8 tonnes, or 1.5% of the catch.

The facts are clear. While fishermen in other areas continue to explore ways to reduce cod discards and monitor their positive results, such as CCTV and catch quota trials in the North sea, Northern Ireland fishermen, working with fishing scientists, have delivered. However, their work will not stop there. A new project, which seeks further to reduce discards of whiting and haddock, is already being planned.

The actions of the Faroe Islands and Iceland have shown that the EU is not in control of fisheries. Those countries must take a sensible approach. It grieves and annoys me that after we bailed out their banks, they show their gratitude by taking our fish. It is understandable that we should be a wee bit annoyed. The EU must take into account the views of those who are on the seas every day, whose livelihoods depend on stock replenishment and who know the seas better than any scientist flown in. I wish the Minister well in his endeavours at the December meeting. I hope that this does not put the scud on him, as we say back home, but we are impressed by his knowledge of and interest in fisheries, and we look forward to what he will bring back.

I apologise on behalf of my fellow Northern Ireland MP, the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie), who could not attend this debate because she could not get here. Now I am in a predicament: can I get home? I hope that I can. I ask the Minister to take account of and act on what he has heard this afternoon. The days of passively accepting EU directives to the detriment of our fishing industry must be over. Fairness and equality must now be the catch of the day, and the House must do the background work to serve a palatable meal for our fishermen.

16:03

[Oliver Colvile (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Con)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this annual parliamentary debate on UK fishing policy. I congratulate the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) on opening the batting, hours before somebody else opens the batting down under. I also congratulate the Backbench Business Committee on granting this debate. It is important, and it would be helpful if next year, this debate took place in the Chamber.

Over the past 10 years, as the Conservative candidate and now the Member of Parliament for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport, I have become aware how totemic the issue of fishing has become on the peninsula and how it can become the conduit for anti-EU sentiment. It goes much wider than just fishing. When I was a parliamentary candidate, I consistently said that I would say to Ministers that Plymouth is not Portsmouth; we are not 20 minutes away from Bristol and we would be very grateful if the Government took real notice of what happens in the south-west and on the peninsula, especially in relation to fishing.

Fishing is one of those issues that appears very regularly in the Western Morning News, the Herald in Plymouth and, of course, on the BBC’s “Spotlight” programme. It is a very important community issue, which I believe receives great emotional support as well. I am afraid that Edward Heath’s 11th-hour intervention and subsequent Government decisions to give Europe a greater say over our fishing policy, which affects our communities, was a very big mistake. It has made many of our fishermen very sceptical about the CFP and consequently very sceptical about some of the EU’s conservation proposals too.

Many of our fishermen are horrified that the Austrians, who have no coastline whatsoever, should be able to have a say on the CFP, while other British fishermen feel that the UK Government gold-plates much of our EU fisheries regulation, whereas in Spain, of course, the inspectors are hundreds of miles away from the Spanish fishermen and ports, very rarely visiting them, and they are very lax on enforcement too.

Last Friday I spent the whole day, along with my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray) and the hon. Member for Plymouth, Moor View (Alison Seabeck), seeing first-hand how Plymouth is a major global player in marine scientific research. I firmly believe that Plymouth needs to make more use of that research, to rebalance the economy, which is very dependent on the public sector. That research can help our economy immensely.

Our day included going to see the Royal Navy, Plymouth Marine Laboratory, Plymouth university, the Marine Biological Association, the Sir Alister Hardy Foundation for Ocean Science and the National Marine Aquarium, all of which I am delighted to say are based in my constituency of Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport. Although I would say this as a Plymouth MP, it was rather unhelpful that the previous Labour Government decided to put the Marine Management Organisation up in Newcastle rather than in Plymouth, although I am sure that that is something that might be reconsidered at a later date.

I very much want to invite my hon. Friend the Minister, who is responsible for fisheries, to come down to Plymouth to see some of the very good work that is taking place in the marine industry. If he would like to come and do that, I would be delighted to welcome him.

[Mr Alan Campbell]

As someone who was involved in lobbying for the MMO to come to the north-east, I just want to put on record that everything that the hon. Gentleman has listed as existing in Plymouth also exists in the north-east.

[Oliver Colvile]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that. I am aware that Newcastle university has a very big role to play in that regard too. However, for my part of the world, it is important that we try to make sure that we have a strong way to ensure that our economy works. I also believe that all of this activity, if it works properly, can help to encourage major economic clusters. Having said that, I am aware that there can occasionally be real tensions between people in the fishing industry and people involved in conservation at the National Marine Aquarium and Plymouth university.

It would be very helpful if my hon. Friend the Minister could double-check and make sure that Natural England has used the correct process to assess marine conservation zones and that any further environmental proposals are consulted on widely with my local fishermen. I fully support the National Marine Aquarium’s concerns about the amount of foreign industrial fishing that takes place within our waters. During the past 10 years, I have consistently campaigned for UK fishing waters to come back under UK control and I want to confirm that commitment again today. I am delighted to report that academics at Plymouth university have told me that they are quite receptive to that proposal, which they regard as a way of trying to conserve some of our fishing stocks as well.

Many Members who have spoken, and those are still to speak, are significantly better informed on the whole issue of fishing than I am ever likely to be. I refer especially to my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall, who has demonstrated a good knowledge from a very personal point of view. I am therefore not going to get too involved in some of the technical aspects of fishing policy. Over the next few minutes, I want to talk about recreational sea angling and ask my hon. Friend the Minister what plans the coalition has to protect the UK’s premier recreational fishing industry from the over-fishing that currently takes place in UK and EU waters.

In the run-up to this debate, I heard from a number of recreational anglers who are very concerned that the UK is losing out to the Irish. Some 20 years ago, the Irish decided to ban all commercial fishing for bass, and chose instead to focus on the substantial value of bass fishing as a recreational sport. Last night, one of my constituents wrote to me, telling me how he and many other British residents travel to the Republic of Ireland to spend up to 16 weeks a year angling for sea bass. He noted that the Irish Government are delighted with the huge revenue that visiting anglers produce, and he suggested that I ask the Minister if there were proposals to introduce similar legislation in Northern Ireland and other parts of the UK. I appreciate that there is a balance to be struck between the economic contribution that this species makes to Plymouth fish market and the protection of our recreational sea anglers. I must stress that I want to be supportive of Plymouth fish market and ensure that it is not affected.

I will not ask the Government to ban all commercial sea bass fishing, but I would be grateful if my hon. Friend explained—either now or at a later date—what measures the Government are proposing to introduce to help the substantial Plymouth-based charter fleet and the 240,000 British people who, according to Invest in Fish South West, go fishing in the south-west each year and depend on there being fish to catch.

I am aware that devising fisheries policy is complicated and that the Government have to strike a balance between the fishing industry and conserving our fishing stocks. I am also aware of the ways in which fish benefits our health, thanks to the Chestnut Appeal, which is the Devon and Cornwall prostate cancer charity. It regularly tells me that I should eat significantly less red meat and more fish, and I should take notice of that. I believe that Plymouth and the south-west have a proud fishing heritage. We now face a practical and scientific challenge to ensure both that we protect our fish stocks and that our fishing industry is able to flourish in a sustainable manner.

16:13

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this debate. I am conscious that there are a number of other Members who wish to contribute and that we need to give the Minister an opportunity to respond to the points that have been made, so I will try to be as brief as possible.

I congratulate the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) on securing the debate, and I associate myself very much with her comments about the Fishermen’s Mission and the Royal National Lifeboat Institution, which does a superb job protecting people around our coastline. I am almost unique in this Chamber today in that, as far as I am aware, there is no fishing fleet in Rutherglen and Hamilton West; indeed I would be surprised to find that there was. Perhaps it is the same in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain), who is on the Front Bench.

I was keen to contribute to the debate as someone who, 10 years ago, worked in the former Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. Having attended a number of Fisheries Councils in that capacity, I genuinely wish the Minister well for the negotiations later this month.

As many hon. Members have said, the need for reform of the CFP is a long-standing issue, and one that has been raised by hon. Members on both sides of the House for a number of years. In some ways it is disappointing that, almost 10 years since I last had some degree of familiarity with fishing issues, so many of them have not changed much. That speaks to the compromise that sometimes seems to happen in European negotiations, particularly when fisheries issues and other issues are played off against each other. It is one of the less attractive features of how European issues are sometimes discussed and negotiated.

I am sure that the Minister will do all that he can to stand up for the fishing industry and to look at CFP reform as the opportunity presents itself next year or in following years. I am sure that he will make the case to colleagues in other Departments that fisheries should not be considered to be at the margins of European discussions, because they are vital to a range of communities that are well represented today and to the sustainability of both stocks and an industry that is a key economic contributor in several places. The Fisheries Council meeting in December is also important because it will come ahead of those negotiations on the CFP and therefore is a crucial opportunity to set the standard. I think that it will be used more widely as a barometer for where the debate on the fishing industry is going.

There is an important balance to be struck between the sustainability of stocks and the sustainability of communities and industries. I am sometimes depressed by the way the debate is characterised. Other Members have suggested that there can be almost a caricature of scientists against fishermen, but I know from my discussions with representatives of the fishing industry that that is by no means a fair reflection of where the industry is. There are other measures that the Government should look at when trying to marry those two objectives, because the overall policy goal, by and large, is shared.

Looking further at how we move from the sometimes cumbersome system of total allowable catches to catch quotas and the consequent reduction in discards is an important part of that. Early trials of on-board monitoring for fisheries in England and other areas have produced positive results, but that needs to go alongside rule changes as well, because one without the other will not allow that system to work properly if it is adopted. I hope that the Minister will take that stance in his discussions and meetings later this month and in the next few months.

I have had the opportunity at the last two DEFRA Question Times to raise with the Minister the mackerel quota dispute with Iceland and the Faroes, which other Members have mentioned. I appreciate that he made it clear on both occasions that the unilateral approach was unacceptable and that he shares the views of many who have expressed concern about how that situation has arisen and the fact that it is not resolved. I take this opportunity to implore him again to do everything he can to try to resolve that issue. As the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan made clear in her contribution—she obviously has a strong constituency interest—there needs to be a negotiated settlement, but one that is acceptable to the people whose livelihoods depend on that fishing.

The need for reform of the CFP is widely accepted, but it is difficult to achieve. I appreciate that the job that the Minister will have to do over the next few months is difficult, and I am sure that he will have picked up from the debate that there is a great deal of support for him and a recognition of the difficult nature of that job. I hope that those discussions on CFP reform will look at regional fisheries management. I know that there are issues about the extent to which such management is a regional matter and that the Scottish Government have expressed the view that it should be done at a Scottish level and not below. There needs to be appropriate flexibility in moving to regional fisheries management. However, the credibility that will come from that will help the Minister in the task that he faces. It will also help to move to longer-term management plans, which I think have a key part to play. Every year, just before Christmas, there is an opportunity for the wider media finally to pay a bit of attention to the fisheries industry, but they do so in a way that is caricatured almost as a “stay up all night, and who yawns first loses out” approach, which is not helpful. We should move to a much more sustainable position.

I would also like the Minister to respond, if he can in the time that he has, to three further points relating to fisheries that are of concern to people to whom I have spoken in recent months. First, regarding the future of the under-10-metre fleet, I know that work was being undertaken by the previous Government and I hope that that work is continuing under the current Government. Secondly, does the Minister intend to use the Hague preference during the negotiations later this month? Thirdly, what update can he give us in relation to the attempts—attempts that began under the previous Government and that I hope will be continued under this Government—to protect blue fin tuna? That is a very important international issue, stretching outside of EU issues and involving fisheries more widely. Moreover, what discussions has he had, or is he planning to have, with his Maltese, French and Italian counterparts?

Given that other Members wish to speak, I will curtail my remarks there.

16:21

[Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)]

I am fortunate to represent Brixham and fishing is the absolute heart of Brixham. The catch there is worth £17 million a year. The jobs involved are not just those at sea; there are many more related jobs on land. That is particularly important in Torbay, where there are 3,500 people claiming jobseeker’s allowance.

The English channel fisheries are worth more than £70 million a year at first sale and 60% of that money comes from non-quota species, such as scallop, crab, bass and lemon sole. That is particularly important because, for its size, the English channel is the richest sea area—in pounds per square mile—in European waters.

Of course, those rich fisheries exist because of rich habitats. We all understand that the Minister has to tread a very careful line between protecting habitats and protecting livelihoods. However, when he signs statutory orders protecting sites, he creates offences that carry penalties of £50,000 or more and he needs to take great care to ensure that areas closed to fishing are absolutely necessary and evidence-based, in terms of giving a chance for regeneration of fish stocks that can then contribute to fishing livelihoods.

Commissioner Maria Damanaki has recently praised the work of trawlermen in Brixham who are involved in Project 50%. In that project, skippers such as Shaun Gibbs work closely with net designers, including Darren Edwards in Brixham, to innovate at their own expense, by designing new gear that allows small fish to escape and that significantly reduces the by-catch. In fact, they have managed to reduce discards by more than 50%, which of course saves fuel, preserves stocks and reduces the impact of the benthic species.

I ask the Minister to press the case for such projects to be recognised and to provide an incentive for others to follow suit, by rewarding them with increasing quotas for the key target species, such as Dover sole, anglerfish or monkfish and plaice. It is also very important that he recognises that the Commission’s proposal to change the management regime of channel plaice, particularly in areas VIId and VIIe, would have far-reaching implications beyond the simple quota tonnage numbers. Those areas are currently managed in combination, but if they are split that would result in a large increase in discards in area VIIe, which is the western channel, particularly in the beam trawler fisheries in my constituency.

I think that we would all agree that policy drivers must be consistent. There is no point having projects such as Project 50% if we are going to see discards driven up by measures that are poorly thought through and by policies that are, frankly, inconsistent. Has the Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science been asked to conduct a full regulatory impact assessment of the Commission’s proposal, including an assessment of how many perfectly healthy plaice will be thrown back into the sea dead if a mixed fishery catching sole is unable to land perfectly good plaice over quota? I call on the Minister to resist the proposal to split areas VIId and VIIe for that reason.

The Commission proposes a 15% increase in the available catch of sole, but it is accepted that the TAC for area VIIe should not have been reduced by even 5%, because, as I understand it, the status quo would have yielded a full improvement in the spawning stock. As my constituents see it, the only fair outcome is the full, scientifically justified 19% increase in the TAC for 2011, and I hope that the Minister will press for that.

The skate distribution among member states is unfair. We recognise that it is unlikely to be reworked, so I call instead on the Minister to press for an increase in the quota so that skippers can land what they catch rather than discarding skate. We all recognise that current arrangements are not preserving stocks; they are just causing dead fish to be thrown back into the sea.

We believe that sprats are not depleted. One of the many daft Commission rules is “use it or lose it”. I think that many Members here share my hope that the Minister will resist further reductions for under-utilisation.

I represent not just the beam trawler fleet but the under-10-metre fleet. I am sure that the Minister recognises that the two fleets sometimes have conflicting interests, but there are issues common to them both. They both agree that the “use it or lose it” proposals are counter-productive, particularly when it comes to the under-10-metre fleet. Skippers pay large sums to acquire vessels, often with a high premium because they come with a shellfish quota that the skippers do not wish to use. I hope that he will look into that issue. Such skippers are also disadvantaged because they must often buy vessels that are under-equipped in engine power to fish safely or efficiently. They would like me to draw to the Minister’s attention the unfair discrimination that they face when compared with the recreational and charter fleet. They often fish alongside such vessels, using the same methodology, but they face expensive restrictions in terms of training courses and qualifications, and of course the charter and recreational fleet has no quota. I call on him to consider that issue.

I extend the Minister a warm invitation to come back to Brixham. He kindly visited before the election, but at that time we had not completed our wonderful new fish market, which was funded in part by DEFRA. I know that all my colleagues in Brixham would warmly welcome him. I close by paying tribute, again, to the work of the Royal National Mission to Deep Sea Fishermen, the RNLI and the coast guard.

16:28

[Peter Aldous (Waveney) (Con)]

it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Owen. I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in my first annual fisheries debate. Like others, I wish it were taking place on a larger stage, which would have done credit to the industry that we are here to represent. I congratulate the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) on securing this debate.

Although I am pleased to be here, I am acutely aware that these are difficult times for the fishing industry in Lowestoft, in my constituency, and around Britain. In many respects, the industry is in the last-chance saloon. It is up to all of us to ensure that it is sustainable and not only conserves fish stocks but gives our constituents who work in the industry a viable future in which they can earn a reasonable living and have the certainty needed to make long-term investment decisions.

As I said in the Adjournment debate that I secured on 14 October, the Lowestoft fishing industry is a shadow of its former self. However, I believe that it could have a viable and brighter future if the European Commission and the Government make the right decisions now and in the coming two years. To get to that better future, a number of obstacles need to be overcome and a number of vested interests challenged. A difficult and tortuous road lies ahead of us.

I would like to thank my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary for the way in which he has approached what many may regard as an unenviable task, and some may describe as a poisoned chalice. He has been to Lowestoft to meet fishermen on two occasions, and this morning he hosted a delegation of fishermen from Suffolk to listen to their concerns and hear their ideas for the future of their industry. One of those fishermen is in the Public Gallery this afternoon and I thank him for listening to us.

Time is short, so I shall first set out the problems that confront the Suffolk fishing industry, and then make some proposals for the way forward towards a brighter future. In my opinion, five problems need to be addressed. First, the current regime fails to achieve its prime objective of conserving fish stocks, and causes untold damage to the marine environment. Young fish are caught before they are mature and there are no adequate incentives for the management of stocks.

Secondly, the current regime is not only bad for fish, it is bad for fishermen. The industry lurches from one crisis to the next, and it seems that the role of each successive Minister is continually to apply a sticking plaster to ensure that a particular fishery or group of fishermen gets over those crises. Fishermen find themselves unable to make a living or make long-term investment plans. Ultimately, many leave the industry.

Thirdly, one immediate problem faced by the industry is ensuring that fishermen survive the next year before the review of the common fisheries policy in 2012. The initial prognosis is not good; Lowestoft fishermen are faced with a cut to their whiting quota from 4 tonnes to 500 kg per month. The European Commission’s proposals for TACs and effort control mean that British fishermen are facing severe cuts in quotas. Regulation by TACs is a flawed process, and I question whether some of the proposed quota reductions are based on genuine, well-founded science.

Fourthly, we must throw overboard the obscene practice of discards as soon as possible. It is destroying fish stocks, it repulses fishermen, and the British public are appalled by it. As I mentioned in my Adjournment debate, in Suffolk we estimated that in five days in late September, nine under-10-metre boats threw overboard 11.5 tonnes of skate.

Finally, the British under-10-metre fleet gets a raw deal. It makes up 85% of the British fishing fleet, but it gets under 4% of the available quota. Today, most of the Lowestoft fleet is made up of under-10-metre boats that fish inshore in a sustainable way with long lines. That is the type of environmentally friendly industry that we should be encouraging. At the forthcoming CFP review, that fleet must receive a more equitable share of the quota.

Looking to the future, the first challenge to confront in the short term is to ensure that our fishermen get the best possible deal in the forthcoming Council of Ministers on 13 December. The Minister’s task is not an easy one and I urge him to do all that he can to secure the best deal for Britain. The National Federation of Fishermen’s Organisations set out a clear guide on the course that he should pursue, and I urge him to challenge the science behind the Commission’s proposals, which in many respects appears illogical.

There is also a role for our MEPs, as this year for the first time, fisheries policy needs to be agreed jointly with the European Parliament. The future of many fishermen depends on whether those negotiations can provide them with an income with which to pay their mortgages and living expenses. If they go out of business, the boats go, as does much of the supporting infrastructure, and they will never come back.

Looking ahead to the CFP review, much good work has been done on which the European Commission and the Government can build. That includes the SAIF—sustainable access to inshore fisheries—report from August 2010, work by the WWF and GLOBE, and the catch quota pilot study carried out by the Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science, CEFAS, details of which were set out in its interim report in September.

I urge the Minister to pursue a four-pronged approach. First, there should be a move away from the current top-down micro-management that has worked so badly and led to so many of the problems faced by the fishing industry today. In future, the EU’s role should be to set high-level objectives. The day-to-day management of fisheries should be carried out locally by fishermen, CEFAS scientists and a more streamlined regulator. It may be that the Marine Management Organisation should devolve its responsibilities to the inshore fisheries and conservation authorities.

Secondly, there must be an increased use of science, with fishermen themselves playing the lead role in monitoring the amount of fish caught and recording that activity. That information can be used to manage fisheries in a proactive, responsible and sustainable way. It is vital that all parties work together and that trust, which has been missing in recent years, be re-established. It is important to remember that fishermen are the custodians of the sea. Lowestoft fishermen always say that they do not wish to be aboard the vessel that catches the last fish. Fishermen want to create and then manage sustainable fisheries.

Thirdly, a variety of tools should be used in the local management of inshore fisheries. It is such fisheries that I am concentrating on, as the Lowestoft fleet is almost exclusively an under-10-metre fleet today. Effort control in the form of a maximum-hours-at-sea approach has a role to play in eliminating discards, but other controls should be used as well, such as catch limits and a variety of technical measures.

Finally, there must be an equitable redistribution of quota to ensure that the inshore fleet is treated fairly. The quota system needs to be put on a more commercial footing, rather than being based on “grandfather’s rights”. It is very much the elephant in the room. If necessary, the legal status of quotas needs to be clarified and challenged.

I am grateful to you, Mr Owen, for bearing with me. In conclusion, I wish the Minister well in the tough and difficult negotiations that he faces both in the next few days and over the next year or so. He has approached his job with serious resolve, enthusiasm and a willingness to listen. Many people and communities around Britain are dependent on him for a successful outcome to his negotiations both next month and at the CFP review. I wish him well.

16:37

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

It is a great pleasure to address the annual fisheries debate for the first time. That delight is slightly diminished by the fact that England did not win its World cup bid. However, that disappointment will be temporary, whereas the disappointment that fishermen face every day over the fact that their industry is being decimated is beyond comparison.

I thank the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) for leading the charge in securing this debate. I was delighted to accompany her when she put her case to the Backbench Business Committee. I suggest to colleagues that on the first Monday of November next year, we all go to the Backbench Business Committee and secure the rightful place for this debate in the main Chamber. The hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) points at the Minister. He will have voted, I think, for the Backbench Business Committee’s reforms. I understand that in the Wright report, it was decided that the Committee would take on the role of allocating debates, such as the annual fisheries debate. As often happens in politics, voting for something sometimes has unintended consequences. However, this is the reality for this year. For next year, we should all club together and go to the Committee.

I want to congratulate my constituent, Mr Wightman, who has come to London for this debate. He had, I believe, a successful meeting with the Minister earlier. He fishes from a boat called Maximus out of the port of Lowestoft, which is in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney (Peter Aldous). I pay tribute to him for sitting through this debate when he could be out fishing instead.

Fishing may not be the biggest industry in my constituency, but it is an iconic one. The whole area to the north of my constituency is called Sole bay, and for a good reason. It includes places such as Aldeburgh, Southwold, Dunwich, Felixstowe Ferry and other places such as Orford, which have a different kind of fishing. I am surprised that no Member has yet claimed to have the best fish and chips in their constituency, so I will make my bid for that. Although the Minister came to my constituency to look at coastal erosion and meet some fishermen, sadly, we did not have time to stop for fish and chips. If he comes again, I will make sure that that will be our first port of call.

I pay tribute to local fishermen and councils for their efforts, with the support of my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney and our MEPs, to secure significant investment to upgrade the fishing facilities in Southwold harbour. We secured a grant from the European fisheries fund. If colleagues have not had the opportunity to do so, I recommend it. It is a good source of financing to keep our industry going.

Ultimately, however, what will keep our industry going is not fancy facilities but the ability to fish. It is a great irony—hon. Members might remember this as a classic pub quiz question—that the only foodstuff not rationed during world war two was fish, but today we are debating the rationing of fishing. As has been said, it is likely that the total allowable catch will decline in the next agreement, even though the Minister, who has been outstanding during his short time as Fisheries Minister, will fight the good fight. I wish him well.

The fishing fleet in my constituency is an inshore fleet. As has been said, that is substantially the highest proportion of the fleet, with a tiny amount of quota. I know that Commissioner Damanaki has recognised the important cultural role that fishing plays in coastal communities. It enhances the social and economic fabric as well, which should not be underestimated. Different experiments in managing fisheries have been undertaken. It would be worth while for the Minister to go back and look at some of the trials in the eastern sea area to see what worked and what did not.

In a way, I did not appreciate the importance of fishing to my constituency until that became clear in the summer, when fishermen were suddenly prevented from fishing. Although I should not use unnecessary hyperbole, the consequences in terms of the community’s reaction, never mind the fishermen’s, were absolutely astronomic. Again, I pay tribute to the Minister, because I know that he worked exceptionally hard to get the quota swaps. I understand from my hon. Friend the Member for South Thanet (Laura Sandys) that the fishermen’s subsequent quota was higher than last year’s, thanks to the Minister’s good efforts. Although I do not have the data to back that up, I believe it to be true.

Discard rates have been mentioned, as has the distortion of quotas by the fact that discard rates are automatically calculated in. That seems somewhat ridiculous. Discards happen, as has been said. I am interested to hear about Project 50%, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) referred. I hope that the Minister will consider ways not so much to improve efficiency as to reduce discards, especially in our inshore fleet.

On a slightly different subject, other barriers to fishing include marine conservation zones or offshore wind farms, both of which are prevalent off the coast, as my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney will know. Natural England and other organisations have been proactive in engaging with fishermen on the issue. I believe that my constituent has been involved in helping map out areas where fishermen can still fish. However, as he convincingly pointed out to me earlier, they are effectively doing it blindfolded, because they do not know what the Marine Management Organisation is doing in its plans for sustainable management. It should be a round-table discussion rather than a bilateral one.

Views differ on offshore wind farms. Developers seem to suggest that wind farms provide a haven for fish and are therefore good things. I am not convinced by that, but at some point during the summer, I am due to visit a wind farm, and I hope that the company will allow me to bring along a fisherman as well. Fishermen in my constituency have made a relevant point about the operational effectiveness of the MMO. I am conscious that that is a new organisation. However, I understand that the leadership and directors have already changed on a regular basis. That brings into question the credibility of the leadership of the MMO. Instead of being focused on internal matters, it should focus on fish and fishermen. I do not expect the Minister to criticise the MMO, but perhaps he will reflect on and express his view of its first months of operation.

As my hon. Friend the Member for Waveney and other hon. Members said, it would be useful to have a discussion about how we can devolve the management of fisheries locally. I shall give an example. The people to whom I spoke in the summer suggested that it was all well and good for the MMO to say, “Right, you can now go and fish cod,” but it said that when there were no cod there; they had already moved on. It is that inflexibility that concerns people. The fishermen know what they are doing. I appreciate that the MMO must have a process for deciding what can be fished and for closing different areas and so on, but those decisions seem to be completely unlinked.

There is a joke in our part of the world that there are more “policemen” dealing with fishermen than there are real policemen dealing with criminals. That is an interesting set of priorities. As has been said, there is another distortion in relation to leasing of quotas, which are a valuable commodity. In the past, Governments have boldly adopted the notion of trying to get leaseholders to become freeholders, with some element of compulsion. Although I appreciate that such decisions cannot be made on the back of just one or two conversations, perhaps the Minister will take that into account when considering this issue in future.

Fishing is an inherent part of our country’s heritage. It is an inherent part of what makes us special as an island. It is an inherent part of the good foodstuffs that we should be encouraging people to eat every day. I am proud to serve a coastal constituency. I recognise the excellent contributions made by other hon. Members. I am sure that although the Minister is not from a coastal constituency, there are plenty of fishermen in his area, even if they fish just for recreation.

Fishing is one of our most important industries, but it has been treated shamefully under the common fisheries policy. Hon. Members have asked whether we need a common fisheries policy. I believe that it has been a disastrous experiment, and one of the things that one learns as a scientist is not to keep doing the same experiments and expect to get a different result. It is a case of what could be; we need to take it forward in a new way. We do not rely for our defence solely on the European Union. In fact, we do not at all; we use NATO as the appropriate organisation for that. It seems ridiculous to constituents that landlocked countries have a say on fisheries in the Agriculture and Fisheries Council.

Perhaps there is an opportunity to move forward with people outside the European Union and have a fisheries council just of fishing countries, which work together to make a difference. Who knows what the future holds for fish? I hope that it is a thriving future. Some policies seek the restoration of fish stocks, but the same policies also result in the decimation of the fishing industry.

[Albert Owen (in the Chair)]

I am grateful to hon. Members who have attended the debate, including the 12 Members who have made speeches. Before I call the Front-Bench spokesmen, I would like to say that I have taken note of what was said about the debate not being in the main Chamber today. I shall ask the Member who initiated the debate to make her concluding remarks after the Minister—he has agreed to this—has made his concluding remarks. I call Willie Bain.

16:49

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Owen, for what I think is the first time. I congratulate the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) on securing this important debate before the annual European Fisheries Council later this month. She has spoken with great fluency and passion about the crucial link between the fishing industry and the local economy in Peterhead and across her constituency and, indeed, Scotland, which constitutes about 70% of the UK fisheries industry. However, as we have also heard in the debate, fishing is crucial to community life in much of the rest of coastal Britain, from the south-east to the south-west and, indeed, to the north-east of England, too.

Let me commend the contributions that have been made by my hon. Friends and other hon. Members. I thought that the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) spoke with great authority on the issue of decentralisation and the need to emphasise decentralisation in CFP reform. My hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran), the hon. Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray), my hon. Friend the Member for Tynemouth (Mr Campbell) and the hon. Members for St Ives (Andrew George), for Strangford (Jim Shannon), for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile), for Totnes (Dr Wollaston), for Waveney (Peter Aldous) and for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) all spoke eloquently about the importance of fishing in their communities, which range from the north-east of Scotland to the south-west of England. I think that the theme that ran through all their remarks was the need in CFP reform to tackle the shameful issue of discards.

My hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) spoke, of course, with the authority of an “insider” from the old Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food days. I thought that he spoke extremely well and insightfully about the need for CFP reform.

Let me also associate the Opposition with the remarks made by several hon. Members about the contribution that the RNLI and other coastal services make to the fishing industry and indeed to Britain as a whole.

This has been an exceptionally enlightening and consensual debate and the only thing that would have improved it would have been if it had taken place in the main Chamber. I hope that that will be remedied in future years.

As the EU prepares to consider radical reforms of the CFP, there are several factors that the Opposition believe should inform that debate. First, the status quo on the annual setting of fishing quotas should no longer be an option. A longer-term approach is required to provide greater sustainability and certainty in the conservation of fish stocks, particularly cod stocks, regarding the connected threats of ocean acidification and climate change, and to provide greater security for the fishing industry itself. Multi-annual management plans might cover 30% of total EU catches for 2011 and indeed 80% of fish by weight caught by EU fishermen this year, but the ambitions of the Government and the EU must be to raise those levels quickly.

Secondly, EU Fisheries Ministers should be moving towards greater regional management of fishing waters, as many hon. Members have reflected upon during this debate. Thirdly, a reduction in the unacceptable levels of discards and by-catch is vital. The EU must reform the system so that the levels of fish caught are given greater priority in the regulatory approach that is adopted, as opposed to the quantity of fish that is landed onshore.

Let me develop each of those points in turn. There is an overwhelming priority to preserve our fish stocks within safe biological limits and to consider sustainability in the overall context of the ecosystem. That means examining the effects on the habitat and the other species in the waters from which particular species of fish are taken. Therefore, the view expressed by Commissioner Damanaki, rejecting the old belief that environmental conservation and development of fisheries are incompatible, is welcome. The EU Commission’s statement of 11 November makes it clear that only 40% of assessed EU fishing stocks have been fished sustainably, so we have an important issue to tackle in that respect.

The UN’s Food and Agriculture Organisation reports that almost 28% of global stocks of fish are overexploited or depleted, with another 52% fully exploited. The World Bank has estimated that the annual cost of global overfishing is about $50 billion per year; cumulatively, that amounts to $2 trillion during the last three decades.

The Commission has proposed that the level of total allowable catches and quotas for 2011 will amount to a 10% reduction overall. Some 80% of global fish stocks are at or beyond the limit of sustainable use; many are beyond that limit. The challenge for the EU is to reduce structural overcapacity in fishing, yet incentivise those fishing fleets that are doing the right thing. Such fleets have invested in new nets and new technology and have adopted new fishing practices, as has been demonstrated by the industry in Scotland and beyond and which has rightly been praised by hon. Members today.

In 1995, the EU imported 33% of the fish consumed in Europe. In 2006, importation levels increased to 48% and are now at approximately 50%. Dr Peter Jones, a senior lecturer in the geography department at University college London, addressed a Westminster food and nutrition forum last month that I chaired. He said:

“We are importing more and more fish from developing countries, and that proportion is likely to increase if we see further quota reductions and perhaps the introduction of Marine Protected Areas into European waters, at least in the short term.”

A crucial element here is the future of small-scale fishing, as we heard from the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Zac Goldsmith) in an intervention and from the hon. Members for Waveney and for Totnes. The 2027 vision paper published by the previous Government in 2007 supported the wider economic, social and environmental benefits of small-scale fishing. A key issue if it is to thrive is improved accessibility to capital, particularly where short-term quotas are involved.

[Sheryll Murray]

Will the hon. Gentleman confirm why, under his party’s watch, the amount of quota allocated to the under-10-metre fleet was underestimated by about three-quarters? That is what caused the problem with the quota management for that sector of the fleet.

[Mr Bain]

The hon. Lady details an important point. I certainly take it on board in terms of the formation of policy within my party’s processes, and I am sure that the Minister will have taken great note of it, too.

It is important to illustrate the further assistance that Commissioner Damanaki has provided. In an address to the Environment, Public Health and Food Safety Committee of the European Parliament on 29 September this year, she said that small-scale fisheries

“often contribute to a vital extent to the social fabric and economic well-being of our coastal communities. Small scale vessels often carry out fishing activities that are less harmful to the environment and often more selective than other parts of the fleet. For me it is therefore absolutely important to ensure that these coastal fleets do not lose out in the reform.”

Another important point to be emphasised on CFP reform is greater regionalisation. That will involve integrating fisheries policy with other marine policy. Mike Park, executive chairman of the Scottish White Fish Producer’s Association, said at the Westminster food and nutrition forum in November:

“Part of the problem we have had is the fact that it has been top-down…it has been prescriptive. The best way to resolve that is to actually incorporate fishermen into the system, allow fishermen to take part, build that policy from the bottom upwards, only then will you gain respect, and if you relate it back to the terms of what business does best, fishermen will then…help create policies that actually deliver a sensible, sustainable regime.”

Those are wise words indeed. Commissioner Damanaki echoed that view in her address to the Environment, Public Health and Food Safety Committee of the European Parliament to which I referred earlier. One mechanism that the Council could consider is setting targets at EU level, but then permitting the technical details of how these outcomes are to be decided and implemented at the local or regional level.

In addition, the Council needs to build upon the incentives introduced last December to cut the level of discard and by-catch by permitting fishermen who install CCTV on their boats, and use the excellent techniques that the hon. Member for Strangford said were being utilised in Northern Ireland fisheries, to receive increased quotas. In the Scottish fishing industry, trialling systems have been established incorporating cameras and data reporting as a means of basing enforcement on levels of fish removed from the sea, rather than on levels of fish landed. It is important because by-catch can have damaging effects on the marine environment as a whole.

At a global level too, marine conservation is an important concern for policy makers. The GLOBE International Commission on Land Use Change and Ecosystems produced a marine ecosystems recovery strategy in June, which starts from the principle that marine conservation requires a globally co-ordinated response, with action needed at all political levels, including a review of fishing subsidies at World Trade Organisation level. It recommends:

“Within national and regional parliaments where fishing rights are held in common, measures are needed to address fleet efficiency and to ensure that the management of domestic fisheries is governed by a sustainable, ecosystem-based approach.

The largest importers of fish must also pass robust regulations to eradicate illegal fish from the market and promote sustainable sourcing.

Regional cooperation is needed between key port and coastal states in order to ensure there are no safe havens for illegal fishing.”

Some of the specific ideas mentioned in the strategy include rights-based management, where fishing rights are allocated to individuals or communities, on either a transferable or non-transferable basis, which create incentives for resource conservation and economically efficient fishing, but pay particular attention to local communities. It also mentions cap and restore programmes for severely depleted fisheries, which involve a temporary moratorium on or drastic reduction in fishing effort and catches to allow fish stocks to recover, while paying compensation to fishermen either to leave the industry or to work in scientific assessment and enforcement activities. The EU could consider those issues as part of CFP reform.

Let me conclude by asking the Minister a couple of short questions. The first is on the hugely important issue of the dispute involving the UK, Iceland and the Faroe Islands over the shared mackerel quotas, as my hon. Friend the Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West and the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan mentioned. The Minister will recall that he told me in a written answer on 23 November that further talks between the coastal states would take place on 25 and 26 November. What progress has emerged from that meeting about the unacceptable behaviour of the Icelandic fleet in unilaterally seeking to increase its share of the quotas? What are the priorities of the Government for reform of the CFP in 2012 and, in particular, which measures will they propose to tackle the problems of discard and the structural overcapacity of the EU fishing fleet, while protecting vulnerable fishing communities in the UK?

All Members, including Opposition Members, wish the Minister well in his negotiations in the Council. Will he pledge to make a statement to the House before it rises on 21 December on the outcome of the December Council, so that Members have an opportunity to scrutinise effectively how the Government have progressed in the areas that Members have outlined in this debate?

This is a time for EU member states, collectively, to grasp the nettle of thoroughgoing reform of the CFP. That is strongly supported by the Opposition. I hope that in replying to this debate the Minister can demonstrate that it is a key priority of the Government as well.

17:04

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)]

It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship today, Mr Owen. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) for securing this debate. She spoke for everyone here when she said that this debate should take place on the Floor of the House in future so that we can give this subject the forum it deserves.

This is an important time for the industry, and I want to put the fishermen themselves at the heart of our considerations. I pay tribute to those who have lost their life or been injured in this dangerous profession. Fishermen work off a dangerous platform in a dangerous place, and too many pay the price for that. Bereaved families and many other parts of the fishing industry are wonderfully supported by organisations such as the Seamen’s Mission and the Royal National Mission to Deep Sea Fishermen. I echo other hon. Members in paying tribute to them and to organisations such as the RNLI and the coastguard for their bravery and courage and for serving our marine environment so well.

We tend to approach this debate with a sense of groundhog day, as we trawl through the same old arguments. There is a general ennui or depression about the way in which we manage the system, but there are glimmers of hope here and there. What I have detected in my time, both as spokesman for my party when in opposition and as Minister, is that there are some reasons to be cheerful, I intend to put all my effort behind those chinks of light to make them wider and clearer as we progress in the months ahead.

We face a very difficult time; let us not pretend otherwise. If I am asked to present in a sentence my vision for this industry and for the marine environment, I would say that we take an ecosystems-based approach, which was referred to in the GLOBE document. Such an approach has sustainability at its heart—sustainability of the marine environment and the ecosystems that we need and value and from which we get so many services, and sustainability for the industry, and the communities that it supports. Members from all parts of the House have spoken movingly about communities in their constituencies which are dependent not just on the, sadly, too few jobs, but the families, the processing industry and all its supporting infrastructure.

When I visited the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall (Sheryll Murray)—it was the first place that I visited when I was appointed as shadow spokesman—I saw an industry that was surviving. It has had its moments and difficulties, but it has the support of a fish market, merchants, chandlers and many others. If one of them were to go, how viable would be the remainder? That is something that I frequently find as I go round the coast of Britain.

As we embark on the next few weeks, with the December Council and CFP reform, I have to say that I am supported well in this difficult job by some very able officials, who have so much more experience than I of this sometimes Kafkaesque process. There is a great sense of unity across the devolved Governments. If people want an example of cross-party co-operation, they need look no further. We have a Minister from a Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition Government working with a Minister from the Scottish National party in Scotland, a Sinn Fein Minister in Northern Ireland, and a Labour Minister in Wales. I am determined that we should approach this round with a sense of unity, because it is only by working together and being on the same page that we can achieve what we need to achieve. I am grateful to all of them and to their respective officials for their support.

I will rattle through some of points that were made and try to respond to them in the time remaining. The hon. Member for Banff and Buchan led the way in calling for regionalisation and an end to the top-down management of our fisheries and the common fisheries policy. She finds a ready and supportive audience in me. Earlier this week, I was at the Agriculture and Fisheries Council. In a discussion between all the Ministers and the commissioner, everyone who spoke mentioned the need for regionalisation and an end to the current centralised system. In the same way, people often talk positively about long-term management plans, but the proof of what is said lies in what is done, particularly with the current reform process. I sense that among some of our European partners there is, to quote Hilaire Belloc, a desperate desire to

“always keep a-hold of Nurse

For fear of finding something worse.”

I do not think that anything can be worse than what we have now. We must have a decentralised system, and that is what I will be leading on in the reform process.

The hon. Lady represents the two important ports of Peterhead and Fraserburgh, and my two visits to her constituency have proved to me the importance of the fishing industry there. I value the clear way in which I was briefed about her fishing interests, and she was right—as were other hon. Members—to point out the affront of discards. Discards are first and foremost an affront to fishermen, and they are increasingly an affront to the public and the consumer. I was recently interviewed at Billingsgate market by Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall, whom I congratulate on leading an important campaign to raise awareness of this issue. His questions surprised me, as he seemed to think that I would somehow be a Minister in a suit who would try to defend the status quo. He was surprised that I out-outraged him with my hyperbole and my opposition to discards.

We must look at where we can succeed. Some schemes have been mentioned today; the hon. Lady mentioned catch quotas, and others have spoken about Project 50%. My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) raised that issue, and on three occasions, I have heard the commissioner quote it as a shining example of what can be achieved. I intend to build on those important points.

[Zac Goldsmith]

How realistic is it to say that we will move to a system of catch quotas? I have no doubt that the Government are committed to dealing with that problem, but realistically, how likely is it that we will see a change in policy?

[Richard Benyon]

I forget the figures for the English fleet, but in Scotland, there are 17 vessels in a catch quota system. That represents about 20% of that fleet—perhaps not; I cannot remember the exact figure. At the moment, that system is a trial. We tried to persuade the Commission—and we will continue to try—that we must move beyond a trial. We want to get every vessel possible into a catch quota system because, for reasons that I will mention, that is the solution. Fishermen are incentivised to do something that gives them more fish, ends discards and is a bottom-up approach. It makes fishermen part of the solution, and instead of being the battered person at the end of the line being hit by a stick, they are given a carrot to find a solution. I will go on to talk about mackerel, which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan and others.

My hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) echoed the point about decentralisation and I know the importance of nephrops to his constituency and the difficulties that are faced there. He rightly mentioned the difficulties of displacement. When we create a management regime that results in less activity in one area, there is a displacement effect. Too often, we have seen the malign effect of displacement round our coastline, and he is right to raise that issue. However, he sensibly discussed the world in which we live. I would love to debate how we got to this point, but that would be a waste both of my time and of the House’s. We should put all our energy into working with a system that we think we might be able to change. For the first time in my adult life and in the experience of people who have been in the House for many fisheries debates, we find the door open to a level of reform that we must try to achieve. I recognise that that is important.

The hon. Member for Aberdeen North (Mr Doran) is an able chairman of the all-party group, which benefits from his knowledge of, and passion for, the subject. He rightly pointed out the importance of the processing industry. We must remember the jobs at stake and the importance to our food security of keeping the infrastructure that we require on land to support the jobs that we are discussing and get the product to market that our fishermen bring ashore. I think that he is rather depressed about the prospects for CFP reform. That probably comes from years of experience, but I hope that we can work with him.

[Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)]

My neighbour and hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) and I have been in and out of meetings and have not been able to contribute to this debate, but I emphasise that the processing industry is incredibly important to us also. It plays a significant role in the Humber region. Things are all interlinked. It is a huge issue for us also.

[Richard Benyon]

My hon. Friend is right to raise that point. I am meeting and working with the Food and Drink Federation to ensure that we have a strategy that supports that industry, and I am going with the FDF to see some fish processing companies near his constituency to ensure that we are integrating the needs of the processing industry into our policies.

The hon. Member for Aberdeen North was positive about other aspects. He was right to point out the GLOBE report, which I value. I appreciate his good wishes at a difficult time. People have been commiserating with me on my job, but I am thoroughly enjoying it. Hon. Members sometimes say nice things about me, which is probably a kiss of death in this place, but the issue is not really about anyone in the House; it is about our marine environment and the jobs of people who do dangerous work out at sea. As we go into the December round, I am conscious that a lot of people will be looking on with great fear and trepidation for their futures. It is a great responsibility, but I take it on readily.

Many hon. Members raised marine conservation zones. Several, including my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall, said that fishermen are sceptical and suspicious of the process. Yes, they are, but the point is this. Fishermen come to my office and meet me as I go around the country, saying, “We’re concerned about this.” People from green non-governmental organisations say, “The system is too much in favour of socio-economic activities.” The fact that both groups have those concerns means that we may be getting it just about right. However, I assure the House absolutely that I want to ensure that at every stage, we have a balanced approach and that people have access. The good thing about today’s debate is the feeling that the argument that conservation is on one side and fishermen and socio-economic activities are on the other is weak and old-fashioned. If we can get this right—the projects, although they have not been without difficulties, are proving that we can—it will be to everybody’s advantage. I reassure my hon. Friend the Member for South East Cornwall and everybody who has raised the issue that at every stage right up until designation, we will ensure that everybody has access to the process.

We must remember that when we discuss management of marine conservation zones, we might be trying to manage the sea bed, in which case activities higher up the water column might be perfectly permissible, or we might be trying to protect features at the surface, such as bird life or harbour porpoises, in which case activities on the sea bed might be perfectly permissible. It is a question of working through the suspicion that my hon. Friend mentioned.

I intervened to address the point that my hon. Friend raised about hand-line mackerel. She has raised the issue with me before and is an assiduous campaigner on behalf of the fishing community in her constituency. She also mentioned dredged materials, a matter that is very relevant to Rame head. She has raised it with me before and it is currently under review. The point she makes is absolutely right: we have to get coherence, because that will bring credibility, and it is important that all parties link together to ensure that we have a credible system.

The hon. Member for Tynemouth (Mr Campbell) made important points about his fishing community in North Shields, which I have visited. I will seek to get the best possible deal for fishermen there and around the country, as we face one of the most historically difficult rounds that we have ever faced. He raised a specific point on whiting, which is important. I know that it is a valuable stock for fishermen in his part of the world, as elsewhere. On the “use it or lose it” rule, there is a lack of understanding about what goes on, because the science is underdeveloped and it is assumed that just because a stock is not being caught up to quota, it is not there. We know that in our seas that is not the case, and I intend to make that point clearly.

A number of Members mentioned the interpretation of the science. The Commission makes the point that we have to debate on the basis of sound science, which is absolutely right, and we do and we will. However, there is a different interpretation of science when we talk about maximum sustainable yields. Are we talking about a particular figure or a band of probabilities? I agree with those who say that Europe should set a parameter, an aspiration to move towards MSY and have a sustainable stock by a certain date, and then leave it to regional bodies or even very local bodies, for example in the case of inshore fisheries, to put into effect an overarching plan. That has to be the way forward. That is the way to use science wisely and apply it to what we actually find in our waters, and I am determined to do that.

My hon. Friend the Member for St Ives (Andrew George) has had to leave, so I will address his points directly to him. I do not have time to mention them in detail now, but I think that I can give him some assurance on his three main points. His point about the closure at Trevose Head is absolutely right. Real-time closures can be a good tool in conservation management, and they are fishermen-led. The fishermen I speak with want their sons and grandsons to carry on their profession in the future, and it is only by giving them the tools to make the conservation opportunities that they know are needed that we will get a better and more sustainable marine environment.

The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) made an important point about nephrops in the Irish sea, which is a matter of particular concern to Northern Ireland’s fishermen. I hope that we can come to some arrangement that gives them a sustainable future for at least the medium term until we see a recovery of that stock. I am working closely with the Department of Agriculture and Rural Development in Northern Ireland and others to ensure that we get the arguments across. It will be one of our priorities as we go into the December round. I take his point about cod and herring. He briefed me in a very focused way recently, and I can assure him that we will take those points forward. The weather is closing in, so I hope that he will be able to get home.

My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Oliver Colvile) spoke about the cluster of science excellence in his constituency. I have benefited from it, experienced it and met a number of scientists from Plymouth. I know how passionate they are about their work and will readily take up the invitations to visit Plymouth and see that work, which have come from several directions. He asked about Natural England and marine conservation zones. I can give him every assurance that I want to see proper systems through the marine conservation zone process, so I can give him assurances on that and on recreational angling. I am an angler. I have been invited to fish for bass in his constituency, or nearby, by one of his constituents and I give him every assurance that I will try to represent the benefits of recreational angling throughout the process of marine conservation.

I am conscious of the time and I want to get on the points that were raised by the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain). First, I send him warm congratulations on his appointment as shadow Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Minister and I look forward to working with him. Long-term management plans are the future and I give him every assurance that I will work towards creating those plans. Of course, that means losing political control, to an extent, and there are some people who think that the December round is the way that it should be, because politicians are holding the quota and can distribute it, which I think gives them a sense of patronage. That sense of patronage is not an attitude that I share and I want to see Europe move away from the rather bizarre antics that we are about to enter into.

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising the issue of ocean acidification, which, in terms of our adaptation to climate change, is important. Regarding his question about mackerel, yes, we are being absolutely robust and I will be very happy to brief him in more detail on that issue.

On CFP reform, I have set out quite clearly our determination to work towards regionalisation and integration on a sea-basin basis, as well as integration of the industry. I have not had time to talk about the under-10s today, but I am determined to take forward a reform that sees those vessels getting a bigger slice of the action. However, I will do that in concert with the rest of the sector and I will try to rebuild trust in the industry. In the near future, I will announce some ideas that will be taken to consultation. At the centre of our CFP reform will be an end to discards and movement towards more catch quotas, and I am happy to keep the hon. Gentleman briefed at every stage. In conclusion, I offer him the pledge that we will be making a statement on the results of the December round.

There is much more that I would like to have said, but there is simply not time to give credit to everybody’s contribution today.

17:27

[Dr Whiteford]

In closing the debate, I thank you, Mr Owen, for your exemplary chairing. I thank all hon. Members who participated in proceedings and I especially thank the Minister for his contribution. The very wide range of issues that have been raised indicates just how important fishing is to those of us who represent coastal communities and they also reflect the diversity and complexity of the industry and its management regimes.

We all recognise that the Minister will have his work cut out in the next few weeks. I particularly welcome the emphasis that he is placing on sustainable communities and his commitment to continue to work closely with the Scottish Government and the other devolved Administrations. I have no doubt that he will have to endure a few sleepless nights when the EU talks roll into the wee small hours—as they always do—and he has my sympathy in that respect. However, I do not think that that is the way to manage the industry or our precious marine resources. I echo the comments of the hon. Members for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) and for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain) in saying that we need to move towards longer-term management of our fisheries. I hope that the Minister will work with others across Europe to find a better way.

Among a number of salient points made by the hon. Member for Tynemouth (Mr Campbell) was the observation that the multi-year agreements reached with Norway represent a far better approach to managing our fishing industry. He and the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) made a plea that the “use it or lose it” quotas should not be automatically cut. That point is important, because automatically cutting those quotas reduces the scope for diversification and our future negotiating stance. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) ably highlighted the great danger of having a fishery that is dependent on only one stock.

I welcome the Minister’s commitment to tackling the issue of discards and his backing for a roll-out of the catch quota scheme. I urge him to continue to hold his ground in the negotiations with Iceland and the Faroes. Above all, I urge him to bring the CFP, as we know it, to an end, and to fight for the livelihoods of our fishing communities and to defend our historic fishing industry. Until that happens, our industry will continue to languish and damage our marine environment unchecked.

I hope that the next time that we debate fisheries in this House it will be on the Floor of the House in Government time, and I wish the Minister every success as he fights the good fight for our industry in the next few weeks.

Question put and agreed to.

17:29

Sitting adjourned.

Written Ministerial Statements

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Written Statements

Thursday 2 December 2010

Tax Rates

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Written Statements

[The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)]

Following decisions announced at the June Budget and the release of retail and consumer prices data for September, the Government have today confirmed 2011-12 rates and thresholds for income tax, national insurance contributions (NICs), and tax credits. The limit for individual savings accounts (ISA) for 2011-12 has also been confirmed.

A note containing this information has been deposited in the Libraries of both Houses and is available on the HM Treasury website at:

http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/tax_autumn_updates.htm.

There is a statutory obligation on the Treasury to make an order to replace the existing amounts of income tax rate limits and personal allowances for the following tax year. The 2010 indexation order has been made today and sets out the indexed amounts of income tax rate limits and personal allowances for 2011-12. In the case of the personal allowance and basic rate limit, this order will be over-ridden by the Finance Bill next year that will legislate for the changes announced at Budget 2010.

The relevant regulations and orders for NICs and tax credits will be laid in spring 2011.

National Address Gazetteer Database

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Robert Neill)]

I would like to inform the House that the Government are today announcing they will bring together publicly owned address information for England and Wales from Ordnance Survey and local authorities to create a “national address gazetteer database”, providing one definitive source of accurate spatial address data.

To deliver this, an agreement has been reached to set up a joint venture between Ordnance Survey and the local government group to create a single source of address data. Having just one database will remove duplication and inefficient processes in the public sector and will provide a better quality of information for all users.

The products created from the national address gazetteer database will be made available free at the point of use for all public sector bodies under the centrally funded public sector mapping agreement. Commercial customers will be able to license the data in the same way as they do for the Ordnance Survey and local government products they use today.

The proposal for the national address gazetteer database will be referred to the Office of Fair Trading for third parties to comment. Subject to Office of Fair Trading clearance the database will be developed by April 2011. This will allow the market to review the database before it is released.

Warm Home Discount Scheme

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Chris Huhne)]

As part of the spending review we announced that energy suppliers would be required to spend £250million in 2011-12 rising to £310 million by 2014-15 on assisting vulnerable consumers with their energy bills. I am pleased to announce that this vital support will be delivered through the warm home discount scheme.

The consultation document we have published today sets out how we propose suppliers should be required to help more of their most vulnerable consumers with their energy costs. Our model includes four key areas of support:

We propose that the majority of spend across the four years of the scheme (2011-12 to 2014-15) should be on the core group. These are a well-targeted group of the poorest pensioners who have a high propensity to fuel poverty and a higher risk of excess winter deaths. This section of the model would build on the 2010 energy rebate scheme, a successful data matching pilot between DWP, DECC and the six major energy suppliers that resulted in an £80 rebate being provided to over 200,000 of the poorest pensioner households this year.

While we know the core group have a high propensity to be fuel poor, we also recognise that other groups are at risk of fuel poverty. Our proposals would therefore also ensure some support will be available for other groups of vulnerable consumers through the broader group.

The voluntary agreement between energy suppliers and Government provides real help to people, but it ends in March 2011. We think it is important that there are some arrangements in place to allow suppliers to continue providing these benefits to the customers receiving them for a period of time. However, we believe that the proposals for the core and broader groups will take more people out of fuel poverty as well as providing clearer and more predictable benefits. We therefore propose that these should be transitional arrangements and that suppliers should have to manage this spend down over the scheme period.

Our proposed model also recognises the good work suppliers have been doing through various industry initiatives under the voluntary agreement, and provides room for them to continue funding them. Such activities include working in partnerships to identify vulnerable customers and funding services delivering energy advice to vulnerable customers.

The warm home discount consultation, which sets out these proposals in greater detail, will run until the 14 January 2011 and is available at:

http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/consultations/warmhome/warmhome.aspx

Copies have also been deposited in the Libraries of both Houses.

Office of the Health Professions Adjudicator

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anne Milton)]

I informed the House on 26 July, Official Report, columns 65-66WS, of the Government’s intention to consult on whether to proceed with work surrounding the Office of the Health Professions Adjudicator (OHPA). A subsequent consultation on this issue, entitled: “Fitness to Practise Adjudication for Health Professionals: Assessing different mechanisms for delivery” was launched on 9 August 2010 and ran until 11 October 2010. The Government are grateful to those who responded.

After careful consideration of the responses received, the Government have decided to proceed with the taking of steps to abolish OHPA.

The Government’s full report and conclusion on the consultation, containing an analysis of the responses received has been placed in the Library. Copies are available to hon. Members from the Vote Office and to noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office. We shall bring forward primary legislation to enable OHPA’s abolition at the next available opportunity.

“Building a Fairer Britain”

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)]

Today the Government are publishing its equality strategy. The strategy sets out our vision for a strong, modern and fair Britain. It is built on two principles of equality—equal treatment and equal opportunity. This means building a society where no one is held back because of who they are, or where they come from.

Our strategy sets out a new approach, not built on bureaucracy but aimed at changing culture and attitudes, tackling the causes of inequality and building a stronger, fairer and more cohesive society where equality is for everyone and is everyone’s responsibility. Government cannot and will not do this by dictating from the centre. Instead, our strategy sets out how we will work with business, local communities and citizens to promote good practice, transparency and accountability.

The strategy includes the coalition Government’s commitment to implement section 159 of the Equality Act 2010 (positive action in recruitment and promotion) and plans to develop a voluntary approach on gender pay reporting in the private and voluntary sector.

As part of the new approach, the Government Equalities Office will be brought within the Home Office, and will cease to be a separate Department. We expect this to take formal effect from 1 April 2011. GEO will continue to have cross-Government responsibilities but this move will help to embed the work on equalities within the departmental structure in line with the equality strategy’s commitment.

Equality is fundamental to this coalition Government. The strategy sets out a new approach to delivering equality, moving away from the identity politics of the past and to an approach that recognises people’s individuality. It sets out a new role for Government, promoting equality through transparency and behaviour change and working with businesses, the voluntary sector and wider civil society to create equal opportunities for everyone.

I have placed a copy of the strategy in the House Library and it has been published online at: www.equalities. gov.uk.

Human Trafficking

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Written Statements

[The Solicitor-General (Mr Edward Garnier)]

On Tuesday 30 November 2010 at oral parliamentary questions, my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle upon Tyne Central (Chi Onwurah) asked me to “explain why the Government did not sign the EU Directive” on human trafficking, Official Report, column 661. I responded that we had signed it. The hon. Member raised the matter again as a point of order on 1 December, Official Report, column 821. As I made clear in my answer there is more than one instrument.

For the avoidance of doubt and confusion I set out here the UK’s position:

There are two European instruments currently in force and one proposal for an instrument.

The EU framework decision on combating trafficking in human beings was adopted by the Council of Ministers in July 2002. Member states had two years to implement the framework decision, including through any legislation. My right hon. Member for Sheffield, Brightside and Hillsborough (Mr Blunkett) was the Home Secretary at this time.

The UK signed up to the Council of Europe Convention on Action against Trafficking in Human Beings in March 2007 when the right hon. and noble Lord Reid of Cardowan was Home Secretary. It was ratified in December 2008 and came into force in April 2009 when the former Member for Redditch (Jacqui Smith) was Home Secretary.

In July this year the Government decided not to opt in to the draft EU Directive on combating human trafficking; a different instrument. If the Government conclude later that the directive would help us fight human trafficking, we can apply to opt in after it has been adopted. Negotiations on the text are at an advanced stage.

Transport Council

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Department for Transport (Mrs Theresa Villiers)]

I will be attending the second Transport Council of the Belgian presidency which will take place in Brussels on 2 December.

The Commission and presidency will present a report on possible measures to improve aviation security. The UK welcomes this report and will press for early, effective and co-ordinated action by member states.

There will also be a debate on the draft directive on cross-border enforcement in the field of road safety. The presidency intends to reach a conclusion on progress towards a political agreement. We hope that the conclusion confirms the accepted view that political agreement can only be achieved once the UK and Ireland have completed parliamentary scrutiny and made their opt-in decisions.

There will be a progress report and policy debate on the legislative proposal to recast the first rail package, establishing a single European railway area, which was presented to the Council in October.

A progress report will be considered on work towards a Council and European Parliament decision on access to the public regulated service of the Galileo satellite navigation system. I will press for greater clarity on the estimated infrastructure and operational costs as well as an indication from the Commission on whether it proposes to charge member states for access to the public regulated service. This will help the Government determine their position on use of this service. The Government continue to oppose increasing the budget for completion of the Galileo system.

The Council will be asked to adopt conclusions, on the integration of water-borne transport into the EU logistics chain. These conclusions follow the informal meeting of EU Transport Ministers held in Antwerp in September. We welcome these conclusions on this important sector.

The Council will also be asked to adopt conclusions following the Commission’s recent communication entitled “Towards a European road safety area: policy orientations on road safety 2011-2020”. As the conclusions set out that any new EU legislation must be proportionate and supported by robust impact assessments, I intend to support their adoption.

Employment Programmes for Disability-related Barriers to Work

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Maria Miller)]

The Government are today announcing an independent review of the support the Government provide to disabled people who want to work.

Since taking office in May 2010, the coalition Government have set out an ambitious programme of employment support to ensure that people disadvantaged in the labour market will get the help they need to find and keep jobs. Our aim is that Government programmes should support more disabled people than ever before into sustainable employment.

The Department will introduce the Work programme —an integrated package of support providing personalised help to a broad range of customers. The Work programme will cater for a wide range of disabled people. The Government recognise that many customers have complex disability-related barriers and may require more specialist support. In October 2010, the Government launched Work Choice—a new programme of support designed to help customers with more complex disability-related barriers find and sustain work. The Work programme and Work Choice are an important stride forward in providing simple, effective customer service that draws on the best evidence about what works. A range of other, specialist programmes currently sit alongside the Work programme and Work Choice—Remploy, residential training colleges and access to work. All provide valued support for disabled people. This review is designed to ensure there is a cohesive set of measures in place which meet the needs of disabled people in sustaining employment.

In the current fiscal climate it is more important than ever that the funding available for employment support is used more effectively. Decisions on the use of the available funding should draw on robust evidence about what works in the modern labour market and on how the support meets the needs of individual disabled people. In this context, the review will examine DWP’s current employment support for people with severe disability-related barriers to work, and make recommendations about how this can be further improved to provide better value for money over the life of this Parliament.

To support this review I have today published a call for evidence to inform the review. This provides an opportunity for people and organisations to submit evidence that will inform the development of our future strategy. This call for evidence will close on 28 February 2011. I expect to publish the outcome of the review by summer 2011.

The review will be conducted by Liz Sayce, chief executive of the disability organisation RADAR.

The terms of reference for the review and the call for evidence are available on the Department’s website at: http://dwp.gov.uk/consultations/. They are also available in the Vote Office and the Printed Paper Office.

House of Lords

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Lords Chamber

Thursday, 2 December 2010.

11:00

Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Newcastle.

EU: Budgets

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Lords Chamber

Question

11:05

Asked By

[Lord Campbell of Alloway]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the grounds on which the European Union Court of Auditors has withheld approval of European Union budgets.

[The Commercial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Sassoon)]

My Lords, the Government are concerned that the European Court of Auditors has been unable to provide a positive statement of assurance for the 16th year in succession. The Government support the ECA’s work but are concerned at the slow pace of reforms to EU financial management. The European Commission and member states are responsible for disbursing EU funds, and share responsibility for sound financial management. The Government take financial management seriously and will shortly publish a consolidated statement on the use of EU funds in the UK.

[Lord Campbell of Alloway]

I thank my noble friend for his surprisingly encouraging exposition. There is no need on that basis to delve into the grounds of the assessment, because that has been covered. May I by leave ask a question that perhaps the Government may accept? At their behest, by dint of diplomacy, will they seek an arrangement, be it by treaty or by some other means, to ensure that the ECA’s decisions are always reflected, and that they are the only decisions reflected, in the contributions of all member states to the budget?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I reiterate that we take the situation enormously seriously. It is deeply unsatisfactory, but progress has been made. In their latest report, the auditors have been able to certify a greater percentage of EU expenditure as satisfactory than before. There are significant complications with anything that goes to changes in the treaty arrangements in this area, but the UK is leading by example by, for instance, producing this consolidated statement, which a number of other member states are now producing and which is welcomed by the Commission. We are adopting every route to try to get improvement. We are by no means complacent, nor should the European authorities be.

[Lord Williamson of Horton]

My Lords, this is a good report. Does the Minister agree that, in relation to all the administrative expenditure of all the EU institutions, the court concludes without qualification that transactions were free from material error and that the supervisory and control systems complied with the financial regulation? Does he also agree that, in relation to other policies, the court rightly points out that there are some accounting errors and, in agriculture for example, some incorrect claims from member states, which the Commission will no doubt seek to correct and recover, but that this is not a finding of fraud?

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I can certainly confirm what the noble Lord says. This does not necessarily excuse anything. If around 50 per cent of expenditure nevertheless does not meet the standards, whether through laxities in accounting or administration of the expenditure, it excuses nothing. Indeed, the level of fraud itself, which has been much discussed, is nevertheless at a very low level. According to the work of the European Anti-Fraud Office, OLAF, the level of fraud has decreased from 0.2 per cent of expenditure in 2007 to 0.07 per cent in 2008.

[Lord Kinnock]

My Lords, will the noble Lord further confirm the satisfactory rate at which the statements of assurance can be offered in respect of different parts of the budget? Secondly, will he also confirm that in areas where there is effective measurement of payments in and payments out, statements of assurance—as in administration, as the noble Lord, Lord Williamson, just said—have consistently been given? Will the Minister therefore encourage the Government to try to spread the good habits that have been developed in this country over recent years so that other member states, where there is a higher incidence of error and fraud, conform to the highest standards so that both the Commission and the Court of Auditors can undertake their work at a much more satisfactory level? That would please everyone.

[Lord Sassoon]

My Lords, I am happy to confirm that the consolidated statement that the UK and a handful of other member states are producing is the most useful practical way of demonstrating that the EU funds that the UK administers are well under control. There is little reference in the auditors’ reports to any matters in the UK. Leading by example is the way we should do it.

[Lord Dykes]

My Lords—

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords—

[Lord Dykes]

My Lords, can the Minister confirm again that these are overwhelmingly technical, clerical, administrative and operational mistakes, and not to do with fraud, which accounts for a tiny amount; and that fraud has also occurred regularly in the United Kingdom?

[Lord Sassoon]

I do not want to go over old ground; I have talked about the fraud issue, which we should not get out of perspective. We nevertheless should not be complacent about any of this. There has to be a formal vote each year to discharge the Commission in respect of the audit qualifications. The previous Government never used their vote in this respect when the annual discharge was voted on. As my honourable friend the Economic Secretary has said, the Government plan to be ready to use our vote if the accounts fail to meet the standards that we think they should. We have to strike a balance here and be seen to take tough action if that is appropriate.

[Lord Tomlinson]

My Lords—

[Lord Pearson of Rannoch]

My Lords—

[Lord McNally]

I think we have to move on to the next Question. There will be other opportunities.

Immigration: Sham Marriages

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Lords Chamber

Question

11:14

Asked By

[Baroness Sharples]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to reduce the number of sham marriages.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, we are working closely with civil registrars and members of the clergy to identify potential suspicious marriages at the earliest opportunity and prevent these marriages taking place. We will seek to disrupt a marriage if we cannot prevent it taking place. We are also taking a more rigorous approach to caseworking, interviewing more applicants to refuse and remove those who seek to gain an immigration advantage from a sham marriage.

[Baroness Sharples]

I thank my noble friend for that reply. Are any checks made when a wedding licence is applied for? What is the estimated cost to the country as a result of such sham marriages?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, the previous Government introduced the certificate of approval scheme in 2005, which led to a substantial drop in suspected sham marriages, from thousands to hundreds per year. That scheme has now been disallowed by the House of Lords on the grounds that it was discriminatory between civil marriages and Church of England marriages. In July, the Government laid a draft remedial order, which will be compatible with the court’s ruling and will come into effect next year. It will require that, if it is deemed necessary by a caseworker, both potential marriage partners must swear affidavits, which must be clearly signed and dated.

[The Lord Bishop of Newcastle]

My Lords, the Church of England deplores any abuse of the marriage service for immigration reasons, whether in a civil or a religious setting. We are committed to working closely with the UK Border Agency to prevent such incidents happening in future. The bishops will be meeting in a few days to assess whether the clergy need to be given further guidance. Will the Minister give us an assurance that the border agency will make available to us as much support, guidance and advice as necessary? Will he also assure us that no action will be taken that will make it harder for parish clergy to conduct genuine marriages?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I thank the right reverend Prelate for that supplementary question. UKBA is working closely with the Church of England, briefing clergy and raising awareness of this increasing problem. I stress that this is a criminal activity by organised gangs, working transnationally. The discovery that the Church of England had a different arrangement from civil registrars was part of what led to a diversion of activity to try to exploit that gap. Noble Lords will be aware of two high-profile cases in the past year that involved this, and which reflect the actions that UKBA has been taking. We are grateful for the co-operation that the Church of England has given in raising awareness among the clergy of these attempts.

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that when the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, made her recent Statement on changes in the Immigration Rules, she agreed that there should be more rigorous checks at the end of a two-year period to ensure that marriages were still subsisting. How can this be done if the number of personnel in the border agency is to be reduced?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, as the noble Lord will know, these are all very difficult areas. The evidence suggests that these gangs have been switching in the past two to three years from sham marriages with British nationals to sham marriages with eastern European nationals—again, doing their best to exploit loopholes. There is some evidence that they have been using vulnerable young women from eastern Europe. UKBA is doing its utmost in this regard. We are attempting to make—I hesitate to use the phrase—efficiency savings without damaging the effectiveness of UKBA.

[Baroness Hussein-Ece]

My Lords, on 23 November, in response to a question on a Statement, the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Jones, said that the Government were looking at a possible extension of the period that a marriage should subsist for it to be demonstrated not to be a sham. Will my noble friend give an assurance that this will not disadvantage legitimate and freely entered arranged marriages, which come from a culture different from that of the UK?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, again, these are very difficult areas. The figure for people who gain the right to settle in Britain through marriage is of the order of 30,000 to 40,000 per year. The vast majority of these cases are genuine. I declare an interest: my sister is married to an American citizen, who has the right of abode in Britain because he has married her. The countries from which applicants most frequently come, as the noble Baroness will know, are in south Asia. The top five countries from which applicants through marriage come are Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, the United States and Thailand.

[Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall]

My Lords, given the noble Lord’s last remarks, does he agree that UK nationals who wish to marry a foreign national have considerable obstacles put in their way that they have to overcome in order for the marriage to be allowed? We should not imagine that it is an easy matter, nor that the majority of marriages that take place between UK and foreign nationals are shams.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I thought I had just said that the majority of these marriages are clearly genuine but there is a problem with the minority and a severe problem with people-trafficking gangs operating transnationally who attempt to use sham marriages as one of the ways to get people into this country.

[Lord Dholakia]

My Lords, all of us condemn anything to do with sham marriages but is the Minister aware of recent high-profile cases of border service staff raiding genuine marriage ceremonies, thus upsetting a large number of people? What sort of training and intelligence is being given to border service staff so that such harm is not done to genuine marriages?

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

I was not aware of that but I shall investigate and write to the noble Lord. Operation Golding, which took place over the summer, has led to a substantial number of arrests, some discovery of the network of criminal gangs and an indication that these gangs have all sorts of associated criminality. Sham marriages are a part of what they do as well as money laundering and people smuggling. In one case, someone involved in a sham marriage was discovered to be wanted by the police for violent crime using another identity.

Public Libraries: Funding

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Lords Chamber

Question

11:21

Asked By

[Lord Harrison]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what are the implications of the Spending Review 2010 for the funding of public libraries.

[Baroness Rawlings]

The responsibility for policies relating to public libraries in England lies with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport but how local government chooses to fund and deliver library services is in the hands of individual authorities. This summer we launched a future libraries programme to help councils make the best use of their library budgets and, where possible, avoid cutting front-line services.

[Lord Harrison]

My Lords, given the closure of libraries, reduced opening hours, as well as cuts in book funds and information services, will the Minister ensure that local authorities have the opportunity and resources to protect the most vulnerable who use our libraries, such as the unemployed, elderly people and those seeking to train and educate themselves back into the market? Will she think about issuing a Statement, or indeed initiating a debate on the modern library service, perhaps using the March 2010 document from DCMS on modern libraries and new challenges, such as the use of volunteers, e-books, and so on? We need to protect and enhance the libraries for our children: three out of four use our libraries regularly and increasing numbers of them borrow books. Children using libraries is our future.

[Baroness Rawlings]

The noble Lord, Lord Harrison, was a most effective chairman of the Cheshire county council library so he knows that at times of economic challenge people need the library service more than ever. Libraries have an important role in encouraging reading. They also help people to return to work. They are essential for the unemployed, children and students to help them access learning and entertainment because they attract people from all walks of life and can build community cohesion. Among the new ideas being explored in the 10 pilot projects, there are many different governance models looking at the possibility of charitable status and transferring control of library services to communities. I am aware of the March 2010 modernisation review and all the progress with computers. As for the Statement and debate that he asked for, we will feed that request into the usual channels.

[Lord Shipley]

I declare an interest as a member of Newcastle City Council. Does my noble friend agree with me that the digital divide remains a serious barrier to social and educational inclusion in that one in four households in the UK does not have access to the internet? Does she agree that libraries will continue to play a critical role in reducing that digital divide? Is she aware of the forecast by the Chartered Institute of Library and Information Professionals, which estimates that the service could lose up to 6,000 jobs over the next four years? Will she comment on that very, very high figure?

[Baroness Rawlings]

I agree with my noble friend Lord Shipley about the importance of the digital divide. The three-yearly public library user survey found that 25 per cent of library users surveyed in 2006-07 intended to use computers during their visit to the library. It found that 16 per cent of users had used a library computer when visiting the library. DCMS does not hold centrally the number of visits made to libraries. A digital section for libraries, too, is more and more important, as we heard on the wireless this morning.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

The Minister said, quite rightly, that discretion as to how to provide a public library service is largely in the hands of local authorities. Will she say how, in the context of the Government’s requirement that local authorities should reduce their spending by 28 per cent—and a substantial proportion of that in the next financial year—Ministers will interpret and invigilate the statutory duty of local authorities to provide a comprehensive as well as an efficient public library service?

[Baroness Rawlings]

The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, is right: it is all important that the library service should continue. However, a number of authorities, I am afraid, are currently considering closing libraries. Before doing so, it is important that they should consider other options for delivering a more efficient service such as the future libraries programme. For example, authorities might consider bringing other council services together with the library service; merging parts of the library service; sharing staff with neighbouring authorities; using volunteers; and delivering library services in other community buildings.

[Lord Walpole]

My Lords, I remind the Minister of the importance of mobile libraries in the countryside, where they are absolutely essential. Does she agree that one way of economising would be to have them call less often—not removing them, as appears to be the problem at the moment?

[Baroness Rawlings]

The noble Lord, Lord Walpole, is right about the mobile services. It is an issue which is very much in the Government’s mind. There are more than 2 million talking books in stock as well as collections of large-print material, which are also used for the blind. Libraries also provide a valuable home service to those who are not mobile enough to travel to library buildings. In 2009-10, nearly 88,000 housebound readers benefited from this service. The Government are very much aware of this issue but, in the end, it will be a local decision.

[Lord Boswell of Aynho]

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that in my immediately adjacent county of Oxfordshire there are to be significant cuts in the full force library service? However, the news is not all bad because there is to be a conscious attempt to involve volunteers and other groups. Will she agree to commission some kind of inquiry or conference to share good practice so that the service we all value can be maintained in its civilising influence?

[Baroness Rawlings]

I am aware of the Oxfordshire closures. Over the past 10 years the number of volunteers in libraries has increased. They regularly help to deliver homework clubs for schoolchildren, contribute to projects to digitise items in library collections and provide buddy support for new users of computers. It is important to remember that authorities remain accountable to their communities for the changes they make.

[Lord Evans of Temple Guiting]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Bottomley, a former Secretary of State at the DCMS, appointed me as the first chair of the Library and Information Commission. Our first project, realised later by the Labour Government, was to put a computer network—known as the people’s network—into all public libraries at a cost of £120 million. What is the status of the library network, given the proposed cuts at DCMS? What provision has been made in public libraries for e-book technology, given the rapid growth in books being delivered electronically?

[Baroness Rawlings]

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Evans, for his question as he has great knowledge and experience in this area. I congratulate him on being the first chairman of the Library and Information Commission. DCMS has responsibility in this area for policy but not for funding. The cuts at DCMS will not affect library services as they are funded by local government from Treasury funds. The decision to use e-book technology is determined by local authorities. That said, DCMS appreciates that e-book technology will play an ever important role in the future.

Standards in Public Life

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Lords Chamber

Question

11:30

Asked By

[Lord Tyler]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will publish any evidence submitted to the Committee on Standards in Public Life on party political finance.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)]

My Lords, the Government welcome the review of the Committee on Standards in Public Life into party funding. My right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister discussed the issue with the committee at its annual open meeting in September, but the Government have not submitted any evidence to the committee. I understand that the major political parties have done so.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, I am sure that Members on all sides will be anxious that progress on this issue is made as quickly as possible, not least because there was a strong degree of consensus across the parties in the previous Parliament on donation caps and regulations on campaign spending between elections. However, that progress did not complete the process because, as the general election approached, it became clear that it was very difficult for the parties to make firm decisions. Can we be clear that the Government will be pressing the committee—and thereafter, whenever decisions are taken by Parliament—to try to deal with the issue of the 55 months before a general election, and that it will not be left to the very end of this Parliament as, at the bitter end, it is very difficult to reach agreement?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, my right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister has made it clear that he gives high priority to party funding in what he has described as the second wave of constitutional reform that we are planning. Therefore, it has high priority. People in all political parties with experience of this matter have given me the same advice—that is, to deal with this matter early in a Parliament. That is what we intend to do.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, does the noble Lord recall that, following the Hayden Phillips proposals, cross-party talks were proceeding well until the Conservative Party walked away from them? Now that he is in the comforting position of sitting with the Conservative Party, will he ensure that there is a future programme of cross-party talks to reach consensus?

[Lord McNally]

As I have said in answer to other questions, I think that what happened in the past is best left to the memoirs, and I can tell noble Lords that mine will be very readable. But in the mean time, I take encouragement from what my right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister said at the City and Islington College on 19 May. He said,

“David Cameron and I are determined to reform party funding”.

That is good enough for me.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

How do we know that the Liberal Democratic element in this coalition will not simply roll over and allow the Conservative element of the coalition to dominate the debate?

[Lord McNally]

Because that has not happened thus far.

[Lord Desai]

My Lords, surely we have a very good method of dealing with party funding, and that is to nominate the donors to the House of Lords.

[Lord McNally]

I am very pleased that the Labour Party is approaching this very serious issue with all the necessary objectivity. I do not mind the little bit of knockabout that occurs at such questions, but, seriously, I think that we have all learnt the hard way that to maintain the integrity of our politics it is imperative to get big money and big money donors out of our political system. The building blocks for an agreement are around. I pay tribute to the party opposite for taking some very significant steps during its time in office to help clean up our politics. I assure this House that this coalition is determined to carry on that work, and to do so with a sense of urgency.

[Lord Ryder of Wensum]

My Lords, my noble friend has just mentioned big money donors. Does that include the trade unions?

[Lord McNally]

Of course it includes the trades unions. Again, when we look back at the Hayden Phillips discussions, the Labour Party has a historic link with the trade unions. We must approach this in a way whereby all parties enter into this recognising our respective histories, and understanding the need to get a settlement which will be seen as fair. If we go for a settlement that looks like it is aimed at hurting one or other of the parties, it will be difficult to get a settlement. The Committee on Standards in Public Life is carrying out a study on this. I hope that it will report by early spring and, when it does, it will enable us to get our ducks in a row to make a proper and comprehensive system which will get big money in politics out of our system for good and all.

[Lord Tyler]

My Lords, I am very grateful for my noble friend’s statement, but does he recognise that this House has a particular interest in terms of its reputation, because in the past there has been a perceived connection between large donors and membership of this House?

[Lord McNally]

Well, we all read the newspapers, so I cannot deny that. But as I said before, there is a real opportunity when the Committee for Standards in Public Life brings forward its report. Let us all—all the political parties—grab the opportunity that that offers with a real sense of urgency and a determination to succeed.

Business of the House

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Lords Chamber

Timing of Debates

11:36

Moved by

[Lord McNally]

That the debates on the Motions in the names of Lord Alton of Liverpool and Lord Janvrin set down for today shall each be limited to two and a half hours.

Motion agreed.

Human Rights

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Lords Chamber

Debate

11:37

Moved by

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

To call attention to human rights abuses worldwide and to the recommendations of the Conservative Party Human Rights Commission on how the Foreign and Commonwealth Office pursues human rights questions; and to move for papers.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

My Lords, perhaps I may first thank my noble friends on the Cross Benches for providing time today for this debate, which focuses on human rights abuses worldwide and looks at the thoughtful recommendations put forward on this important question by the Conservative Party Human Rights Commission.

It is self-evident from the list of speakers that our debate will be enriched by huge and varied experience. In particular, I know that we will await with eager anticipation the maiden speech of my noble friend Lady Hollins.

It is also self-evident that, in too many countries around the world, people are denied basic human rights to which the Universal Declaration of Human Rights asserts they are entitled. From Burma and North Korea to Iran and Saudi Arabia, from Somalia, Sudan and the Democratic Republic of Congo to Cuba, Colombia and many other parts of the world, people face the risk of imprisonment, torture, sexual violence, forced labour—which is modern day slavery—displacement or disappearance if they attempt to express their views openly or to practise their religion freely, or even, in some cases, if they mistakenly say or wear the wrong thing or are in the wrong place.

Terror, ideology, caste, ethnic superiority, systematic abuse of women and children and the brutal violation of minority rights in countless situations and places disfigure humanity. For Jews and Christians, with a belief that each person is made in the image of God, imago Dei, and for secular humanists, who insist on upholding the innate dignity of every human being, there is common ground.

At this time of Chanukah, the festival of lights—we will greatly look forward to hearing later from my noble friend Lord Sacks—it is worth remarking that, earlier this year, 52 rabbis, as part of the Yom HaShoah, the annual commemoration of the Holocaust, wrote that continuing atrocities and conflict in the Congo,

“has produced a terrible humanitarian crisis … This is a moral outrage which the international community must act to help put right”.

An estimated 6 million people have died in the DRC, a country which I have visited. The situation in neighbouring Southern Sudan, where last year more people died even than in Darfur, is equally perilous.

Two nights ago, in a Committee Room of your Lordships’ House, I hosted a meeting attended by Mende Nazer, a young Sudanese woman abducted from her home in the Nuba Mountains and turned into a slave. Her story was movingly re-enacted by Feelgood Theatre Productions. After seven years, she was passed to a London family and escaped, only to face a new struggle for political asylum. Women like Mende Nazer look to us, who enjoy democratic liberties and freedom of speech, to ensure that their stories are told and their rights defended.

Modern human rights discourse is rooted in our fearsome experiences of the 20th century. The horrors and degradations of Auschwitz and Bergen-Belsen gave birth to the rich language of the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights which asserts that,

“disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want”.

The first three articles of the declaration make it clear that human rights are not subject to territoriality. Article 1 unequivocally states that:

“All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood”.

Article 2 states that:

“Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction ... or … any other limitation of sovereignty”.

Article 3 insists that:

“Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.”

These articles and the 27 articles that follow remain the basis for our discourse on human rights today.

During the Cold War years which followed that declaration, it would once again be the plight of European Jews—Russia's refuseniks—and the Helsinki Final Act, promulgated in 1975, which began to challenge consciences and rouse nations. Points 7 and 8 of the Act bound the 35 states that signed it to respect human rights and fundamental freedoms, including the freedom of thought, conscience, religion and belief, and equal rights and self-determination of peoples. According to the Cold War scholar John Lewis Gaddis, the Helsinki accords,

“gradually became a manifesto of the dissident and liberal movement ... What this meant was that the people who lived under these systems—at least the more courageous—could claim official permission to say what they thought”.

In every generation, the challenge is to consider how best to turn those great declarations into policies and initiatives and to give hope to benighted people whose human rights are violated daily, to create as William Hague, our Foreign Secretary, has put it, a foreign policy with a conscience, an approach one might anticipate from the biographer of William Wilberforce.

In opening this debate, I want to explore some principles and practices that should commend themselves to the Government and to give two examples of countries where those principles and practices might be applied—North Korea and Sudan—both of which I have visited in the past three months. Let me refer to the excellent proposals developed during the five years preceding the 2010 general election by the Conservative Party Human Rights Commission. My noble friend Lord Hannay of Chiswick, who cannot be present today, has particularly asked me to commend the United Nations Association of the UK for the work which it undertook in assisting that commission. It produced some incisive reports, complete with recommendations for policies to address sexual violence as a weapon of war, the implementation of the United Nations’ “responsibility to protect” mechanism, child soldiers, press freedom, religious freedom and reform of the United Nations. The reports contain practical and worthwhile mechanisms for putting an aspiration into effect. I am conscious that many members of the previous Government, not least the former Africa Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Kinnock, have a long and distinguished record of championing human rights, and it seems to me that this is therefore an approach around which political consensus can be created.

Let me illustrate this by highlighting the commission's recommendations for how the Foreign and Commonwealth Office's institutional capability to address human rights can be strengthened and, in doing so, I ask the Minister to share with the House the stage of implementation or consideration that these proposals have reached. The most important recommendation made by the commission was for the appointment of a Minister of State for International Human Rights within the FCO with an ability to focus solely or primarily on human rights. Currently, the Minister responsible also has several other responsibilities besides human rights, including south-east Asia, the Far East, the Caribbean, Central/South America, Australasia and Pacific, consular, migration, drugs and international crime, public diplomacy and the Olympics. The commission proposed that a Minister of State for International Human Rights would be able to give human rights concerns greater attention if they could focus solely, or at least primarily, on human rights.

The commission also suggested that a Minister for Human Rights should be invited to attend relevant Cabinet meetings and security and foreign policy Cabinet committees to co-ordinate policy with other appropriate Ministers and departments. The commission proposed that the Minister could be supported by an ambassador-at-large for international human rights, with responsibility for co-ordinating the work of embassies and the Diplomatic Service on human rights issues. This could either be an experienced diplomat with a proven commitment to human rights or a human rights expert with an understanding of international foreign policy and diplomacy. In turn, the ambassador-at-large could oversee a number of thematic portfolios—special representatives or special envoys responsible for issues such as genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity, religious freedom and women’s rights. The United States has an ambassador-at-large for international religious freedom and several special envoys for thematic human rights issues. France and the Netherlands have made similar appointments.

The commission proposed that the ambassador-at-large and the special envoys could work in a strengthened human rights and democracy unit, which would oversee the continued publication of the annual report on human rights, which I hope the Government will today assure the House will continue. Interest in today’s debate underlines the appetite for this, as do repeated all-party calls for the establishment of a House of Lords Foreign Affairs Committee, a proposal supported, I know, by the Minister. Simply shining a light into dark places and reminding perpetrators that one day they may be made to answer for their actions, as in the case of Liberia’s Charles Taylor, or Slobodan Milosevic, challenges a culture of impunity.

The commission also recommended that the Government provide time in both Chambers for an annual debate on the international human rights situation and the findings of the FCO annual report. Religious freedom is one such vital basic human right, enshrined in Article 18, which underpins and intersects with other freedoms: freedom of speech and assembly, to name just two. It is estimated that more than 200 million Christians in over 60 countries face some degree of restriction, discrimination or persecution while Baha’is in Iran, Rohingya Muslims in Burma, the Ahmadi Muslim community in Pakistan, Sufi Muslims from the Sunni tradition in Somalia and Tibetan Buddhists, among many others, all face serious violations of human rights.

The commission recommends, and I endorse this proposal, that the current FCO freedom of religion panel should be expanded, made permanent, and convened regularly, and that reporting of religious freedom violations be given greater prominence, either in the annual human rights report or indeed, as in the United States, in a separate report. I commended this recommendation during the debate on the Queen’s Speech in May and I wonder whether we are any closer to doing it. I also wonder whether it is still the case that the FCO, which the Minister inherited in May, with its vast team of officials, has only one person in its human rights team who is responsible for religious liberties issues. While in some parts of the globe religious liberty is suppressed, elsewhere—in a country such as Iran, for instance—theocracy executes, amputates, tortures and imprisons. The struggle for religious freedom and democratic freedoms are stable-mates, and contempt for either can have calamitous consequences.

The final set of recommendations to which I draw the attention of the Minister and the House are these proposals: that Foreign Office staff receive training in understanding the key human rights issues in countries on which they are working; that a code of conduct should be drafted setting out the expectations and requirements with regard to human rights promotion for each ambassador, for all key embassy staff, including consular staff and visa application officials, and for London-based heads of section and country desk officials; and that diplomats who display outstanding commitment to the promotion and protection of human rights should be recognised and rewarded. By championing in-country the cause of brave dissidents as, for instance, we have consistently done in the case of Aung San Suu Kyi, and by marking key anniversaries, such as the international Human Rights Day on 10 December, we can make it clear that British foreign policy truly has a conscience.

In the few moments that remain, perhaps I may refer to two countries which I have visited recently: North Korea and Sudan. I declare a non-financial interest as chairman of the All Party-Group on North Korea and as an officer of the All-Party Group on Sudan. During my visit to North Korea with my noble friend Lady Cox, who at the moment is returning from the Burma border, we were accompanied by Mr Ben Rogers, who is vice-chairman of the Conservative Party Human Rights Commission and kindly acted as secretariat. We have documented our visit and recommendations in a report, Building Bridges, Not Walls: The Case for Constructive, Critical Engagement with North Korea, which is available on the web. In that report, we suggest that, as well as raising security issues, which has been a one-track approach during the six-party talks, it is imperative that we adopt, as it were, Helsinki but with a Korean face. We also put firmly on to the agenda human rights questions in North Korea, where the United Nations estimates that as many as 300,000 people are currently languishing in its camps. We desperately need a new peace conference to bring an end to a 60-year war which is neither a war nor a peace, merely an armistice. The events on the Korean peninsula last week underlined how often we are simply waiting for a Sarajevo moment to occur, sucking us all into the vortex which 60 years ago this year claimed nearly 3 million lives. We have to engage constructively but critically with North Korea, and the approach adopted during the Helsinki years—the Cold War—is the one that we should be adopting in North Korea today. The Minister has seen the report and I hope that, when he comes to reply, he will be able to respond to that.

Perhaps I may also briefly mention the situation in Sudan. In just a few weeks’ time, in January, there will be a referendum there to determine its future. I was surprised to find that Mr Henry Bellingham, the Minister from the Foreign Office who led a trade delegation to Khartoum, recently said:

“We want to see more UK banks taking a positive view towards Sudan”,

adding that it would be “wrong” for Britain,

“not to encourage the trade”.

Omar al-Bashir, the President of Sudan, is indicted by the International Criminal Court on genocide charges. Anyone who has visited Darfur, as I have, where 200,000 people have been killed and 2 million displaced, will wonder why we would be conducting business as usual.

All of this points, as do many situations in other parts of the world, to the need for Britain to have a clearer policy and approach to human rights. One size never fits all but over-reaching principles are crucial: adumbrating our own nation’s belief in the articles that form the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights and attempting to live up to them; patiently engaging, cajoling and constructively criticising where necessary; and linking development and key foreign policy objectives to human rights goals. These are the things that we must do. I beg to move.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, this is a very popular debate with 19 speakers in two and a half hours. I ask noble Lords to bear in mind that, when the clock says six minutes, they are into their seventh minute.

11:52

[Lord Anderson of Swansea]

My Lords, such is my admiration for the noble Lord, increased by today’s debate, that he has persuaded me to read a number of the Conservative Human Rights Commission reports, which I found very valuable. My only comment is that those recommendations did not come from year zero; the previous Government made a substantial contribution to human rights, and there is a case for going ahead on the basis of consensus, as the noble Lord said. They are extremely useful recommendations. My only criticism of the commission report is its failure to mention, for example, the work of the Council of Europe in the human rights field, particularly in respect of the European convention and the Commission on Human Rights for the 47 countries, and the Conservative commission’s curious reluctance to mention the European Union, save in its criticism of its role in the United Nations Human Rights Council.

I hope the Minister will agree that it is important that there are conditionality clauses in EU association agreements, that these clauses are implemented, and that there is collective action so that individual countries such as Denmark cannot be picked off. Collective action is far more valuable. There is a potential role for the European External Action Service, which was inaugurated yesterday. I hope the Government will insist that there is a human rights dimension, including in the Cabinet of the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, and that that is not neglected by the EEAS.

The noble Lord also mentioned the excellent speech by the Foreign Secretary at Lincoln’s Inn. My only fear is that, rather like Robin Cook’s ethical dimension, which the Daily Mail called a moral foreign policy, there are potential hostages to fortune. There is an abiding temptation in foreign policy to be strong against the weak, such as Burma, and weak against the strong, such as China. The Government have already responded to at least one of the recommendations: the convening of an advisory group on human rights that brings in key NGOs, which is to meet regularly. There is, of course, already a panel concerned with religious freedom, which was set up by the previous Government, but I did criticise them for not allowing the body to meet sufficiently regularly. The point is also made about debates on the Foreign Office annual human rights report in which I played a little role when I chaired the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs, as it was the response to one of the recommendations made in our first report.

The commission is also right to point out the need for a more effective UN Human Rights Council. All too often there is a blocking group, which responds by omitting Iran from monitoring, for example, and which is, of course, overtly anti-Israel and pro-Arab. So there is a basis on which it is hoped we can all agree in the field of human rights.

I raise only one part of the vineyard because it is, as the noble Lord has illustrated, a very extensive field and hardly any Governments are not subject to criticism. I think it was Gareth Evans, the former Foreign Minister of Australia, who said, “How can we plausibly talk about human rights, we Australians, if we are bad to our Aborigines?”. We should also ensure that we look into our own practices so that we can be a model, a lighthouse, in our position abroad. So I join the noble Lord in asking the Minister also to respond to various other recommendations made in the commission’s report, including training for our foreign service personnel and special envoys, whom he listed.

My specific point relates not just broadly to freedom of religion but to the freedom to change one’s religion. I commend the Christian Solidarity Worldwide booklet, No Place to Call Home, which sets out the various obligations, which are very clear indeed. First, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights—I stress “universal”—states, among other things, that:

“Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance”.

Equally, Article 18 of the 1966 International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights states:

“No one shall be subject to coercion which would impair his freedom to have or to adopt a religion or belief of his choice”.

There is also, of course, the 1981 declaration. The booklet goes through the various international—indeed universal—obligations which some Islamic countries have sought to qualify but which in my judgment are extremely clear.

Practices in certain countries against apostates are set out very clearly in the report. Those countries include, alas, a number from the Commonwealth such as Malaysia. In most states in Malaysia, apostasy is punishable by fines, imprisonment and lashes, and in some states by death. In general, the ways in which apostates are treated include extrajudicial killings by state agents or mobs, honour killings, detention, imprisonment, torture, denial of access to judicial and social security, and the withdrawal of employment and education rights. Such experiences are blatantly at odds with international obligations.

I end with a final thought. Yesterday’s edition of Libération mentioned the case of the Afghan, Musa Sayed, who has been in prison for six months for apostasy. It is said that western diplomats have tried, not always successfully, to visit him. I hope that those diplomats include those from the UK. We shall wait to see whether the Government honour their welcome promises and whether there is any difference in practice. I hope that in the debate we can create and build on a consensus in the very important field of human rights.

[Lord Avebury]

My Lords, in my three minutes’ worth in Tuesday’s debate on Iran I gave notice of two issues for today. The first was the advice given by the UN rapporteur on extrajudicial executions, Philip Alston, on how to improve the special procedures system of communication, a matter that I do not think was dealt with by the Conservative Party commission. I mentioned then his proposal for dealing with countries with consistently poor levels of co-operation or meaningful engagement, to which I added an alternative on which I would like an answer from the Minister today.

Mr Alston made five other proposals, including an examination of the effectiveness of the communications system, better integration of the work of the SPs and modernisation of their technology of communication. There is not time to mention them all but they are all worth consideration. Can we urge the Equality and Human Rights Commission to pick them up and, now that Mr Alston has ended his six-year stint as special rapporteur, to put him on a list of potential candidates to carry out the work? How else does my noble friend think that we might go about improving the sclerotic and byzantine edifice of the special procedures?

The second issue that I left for today was that of Iran's minorities. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, concentrated on some aspects of the treatment of minorities. The Kurds have always suffered extreme persecution in Iran, as in other parts of the region. Agents of the regime assassinated their great leader Abdul Rahman Ghassemlou at a meeting to discuss peace in Vienna in 1988, and then his successor Dr Sadegh Sharafkandi was killed at the Mykonos restaurant in Berlin in 2001. In September I asked the Minister, Alistair Burt, if he would press the Austrians to release the files on Ghassemlou’s murder, as the Germans did in the case of Sharafkandi. I would be grateful if my noble friend could tell me what progress is being made on that issue.

Regarding the situation of the Kurds, there are 21 Iranian Kurds on death row today, including a woman, Miss Zeinab Jalalian, who was convicted of “mobarabeh”—“enmity against God”. The Kurdish Human Rights Project—I declare an interest as president of that organisation—says that after her arrest in 2008 she was held incommunicado in a Ministry of Detention facility for eight months before being sentenced to death by the Kermanshah Revolutionary Court. During her brief trial, which lasted for only a few minutes, she was barred from access to her lawyer and was told to “shut up” by the sentencing judge after making a plea to say goodbye to her family.

On the Baha’is, mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, the High Commissioner for Human Rights wrote personally to the Iranian authorities asking for an explanation of the circumstances in which seven members have been held on trumped-up charges from May 2008. They have now been sentenced in totally irregular court proceedings to 10 years’ imprisonment, in effect for being members of the Baha’i faith. I declare an interest as acting chair of the Baha’i All-Party Parliamentary Group.

In another case, of many, three Baha’is have recently begun a fourth year in detention for the “crime” of their participation in an education programme for underprivileged children in Shiraz. They were sentenced despite a report by an inspector of the Office of the Representative of the Supreme Leader that pointed to their innocence. They have been held for three years so far, not in a regular prison but in the holding cells of the Shiraz office of the Ministry of Intelligence where they have no windows, beds or chairs and have only recently been given mattresses. All three have injuries for which they have received inadequate medical attention.

Minorities in Pakistan are having an extremely hard time also. The Parliamentary Human Rights Group has just published a report on the situation of Ahmadis in Pakistan, which presents a stark picture of the discrimination against that community and the lack of protection from the state against their enemies, the extremist Khatme Nabuwwat, an organisation that openly incites religious hatred, creating an atmosphere that leads to assassination and even to well organised massacres of Ahmadis at Friday prayers in their mosques.

Bodies such as the Sipah-e Sahaba and Lashkar-e Jhangvi are violent anti-Shia organisations that were banned by Musharraf in 2002 but are still freely operating in Pakistan, in spite of their known associations with al-Qaeda. They relentlessly target minorities such as the Hazaras, a small Shia minority in Baluchistan, in killings and suicide bombings. An estimated 400 of the Hazaras have been killed and 1,000 injured in the last few years. Thousands more have abandoned their homes and businesses and sought asylum abroad in places such as Canada and Australia.

In Karachi, too, there is a wave of violence, directed against the Ahmadis, Christians, Shia and the MQM, a political party representing the descendants of those who crossed over from India at the time of partition. Nobody is ever arrested for these crimes. We need to know whether the Government, the European Union, the UN or, better still, all of them, will persuade President Zardari and the federal Government to act firmly on the impunity that has been enjoyed by terrorist groups and their extremist ideological allies.

12:06

[Lord Sacks]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for initiating this important debate, which touches the very core of our humanity, transcending all differences of colour, culture, class or creed and sets moral limits to the use of power. It took great crises to make people aware of human rights. The wars of religion in the seventeenth century which led Milton and Locke to formulate the doctrine of the rights of man proclaimed, in the next century, the American and French revolutions. It was sustained reflection on the Holocaust and on the Nazi programme to eliminate whole classes of humanity—the physically and mentally handicapped, homosexuals, Roma and Sinti, and Jews—that led to the great 1948 United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It was a way of saying that what happened in the Holocaust should never happen again, and that those who died should not have died in vain.

It remains a testament to the human spirit that, at that time of Cold War and tense conflict in the Middle East, the nations of the world were none the less able to come together in collective affirmation, whether through religious faith or human reason, of the inherent dignity, and the equal and inalienable rights, of all members of the human family. That remains—despite the genocides and abuses that have happened since, of which we have heard so powerfully today—a signal of hope and a template of aspiration that must continue to protect us against cynicism and despair.

On this vast subject I wish to make just one point. Rights depend not only on declarations but on education. Rights are lost when one group within a society, usually the dominant group, sees another group as a threat to its freedom and its own dominance. Threat becomes fear, fear becomes hate, and hate becomes dehumanisation. The Nazis called Jews vermin and lice. The Hutus of Rwanda called the Tutsis inyenzi, or cockroaches. When this happens—when we dehumanise the other—evil follows, as night follows day. The only way to stop this is through education. I am deeply concerned at the teaching of hate that exists in some parts of the world and among some groups today. That teaching is poisoning the minds of young children and other vulnerable individuals, condemning them to a future of conflict and hostility from which they themselves will lose. Hate harms the hater no less than the hated; and when I diminish others, I am myself diminished.

Article 26 of the universal declaration covers education. Paragraph (2) states that it should,

“promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups”.

How good it would be if we could find ways to make that a reality and not just a pious hope. Today, as the noble Lord has mentioned, is the first day of the Jewish festival of Hanukkah—the anniversary of the time 22 centuries ago when Jews fought and won their right to religious freedom. Shall we not work together—Jews, Christians, Muslims and those of all faiths—to teach the world's children to see God's image in people who are not in their image, whose colour is not theirs, whose language is not theirs, whose face is not theirs? The principle is shared, if differently expressed, by secular humanists of all kinds, for human rights begin with the way in which we teach our children to recognise the humanity of others and the dignity of difference. The rights of tomorrow are born in the education of today.

12:11

[The Earl of Sandwich]

My Lords, it is a privilege to follow the noble Lord and to join in the debate. My noble friend has chosen an interesting subject, but in a sense it is a non-story. No one should be surprised that the Conservative Party is engaged with human rights—but it has taken some time. When I was at school and my father was a Suez rebel in Parliament, you did not interfere with other countries unless you had invaded or colonised them and they were coloured red on the map. Fortunately, the US got us out of the Suez Canal and eventually blew both political parties toward the winds of change of the early 1960s. After that, our entry into Europe helped to define our legal commitment to fundamental human rights, which has now become a sine qua non of foreign policy. It is a way of thinking about foreign policy.

We still think we know better. We even have the right to interfere now under various UN and EU conventions. In the 1991 Harare Declaration, the Commonwealth emphasised fundamental human rights and the equality of women. However, since then it has stepped back from grand statements and seems more content with quiet diplomacy, aid, trade and education. I know that the Minister agrees with that approach. I welcome the latest statements of the Foreign Secretary and look forward to many initiatives in future.

“Human rights” means different things and we have to be careful how we influence other countries in this field. Human rights work can be very dangerous for the individuals and aid organisations concerned. I hope that my noble friend agrees that it is not just a matter of applying the universal declaration: every state will interpret rights in its own setting and background. In India and Nepal, for instance, there is a strong tradition of NGOs campaigning with impunity. This is not the case in Sri Lanka, Burma or Zimbabwe. However, reformers in those countries have been encouraged by outside pressure and sanctions, and this can be a justification for those sanctions.

Human rights can be seen as a mirror that is held up, rather than as a policy. The Minister said this week that lecturing will do no good. I assume that he was referring to Governments. Obviously, Beijing does not take kindly to our complaints about its treatment of Uighurs, any more than New Delhi enjoys our protests against its failure to protect the Dalits. Both countries are in a formal annual intergovernment dialogue with the European Union on human rights—occasions at which nothing happens to improve the plight of the Uighurs or Dalits. It is left largely to campaigners.

Perhaps the most effective dialogue is through different channels such as trade and economic relations. One obvious example from China is the continued existence of Hong Kong as a refuge and as a beacon of international norms. In the case of India, there is great potential, for example, for more corporate responsibility in large international companies.

The Conservative Party lost some of its pre-election momentum with the scrapping of its plans to repeal the Human Rights Act—a clear casualty of the coalition. Its human rights commission is still in business and has just published a first-rate report proposing reforms to the UN Human Rights Council, a body whose membership and credibility have been questioned for some time, as has been said.

Let us be clear: we will continue to use human rights when it suits us. Yoweri Museveni in Uganda and his fellow combatant Paul Kagame in Rwanda were both supported for many years by the British aid programme at a time when they ignored opposition and the needs of their large minorities. Those two men have been very effective leaders but I hope that we will never give up cajoling them—often through aid conditionality—into better governance and human rights. Sudan, which was mentioned by my noble friend, is currently a good example of our foreign policy. I congratulate the FCO and DfID on putting so much effort into this with the help of at least three former ambassadors in Sudan and Egypt, so there can be no doubt about our commitment.

As the referendum goes through we have to be very cautious about our relations with Khartoum. The US made bad mistakes in the past about terrorism in Sudan when Osama Bin Laden was training there. It is now rightly pressing the north to support a peaceful transition in the south. Human rights have certainly become an issue. Unlike my noble friend I support the Government’s new emphasis on trade and improving commercial relations, which have been at a low level for much too long. If we see human rights in the context of sticks and carrots—let us face it, most of it is in that form—it may not please the purer forms of campaigners but it will be more effective diplomacy which could achieve a better result in the long run. At least, that is how the real world looks to me.

12:16

[The Lord Bishop of Wakefield]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for initiating this debate. In my maiden speech in this House I spoke on the United Nations doctrine of responsibility to protect. As the debate proceeded, it was clear that human rights stand at the centre but never in an individualist sense of that word. In other words, we are talking about not my rights but rather the rights of all humankind seen in social solidarity.

Some 15 years ago, with the noble Baroness, Lady Cox, I remember looking with others for ways of safeguarding entire communities at the height of the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan over Nagorno-Karabakh. That is, of course, still a part of the world where these tensions remain latent. More recently, in September I delivered to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office a letter addressed to the Prime Minister and signed by a coalition of some 30 Anglican and Roman Catholic bishops, and by Jewish rabbis. The initiative was taken by Vava Tampa and the Save the Congo Campaign. Those of us with long memories will know that the Congo has been a human disaster area for more than half a century—ever since independence. The situation in the Congo amounts to a permanent state of crisis with ever renewed spates of atrocity. It requires concerted international effort to counter this.

In the light of those issues, and particularly with the comments of the Foreign Secretary on a foreign policy with conscience, this debate is timely. That concept of a policy with conscience has a long history, under different names. It brings into focus both national enlightened self-interest and a concern that the more powerful nations have a responsibility to defend those who are weaker, especially when human rights are flagrantly ignored or even despised. In his recent book reviewing a selection of British Foreign Secretaries in the past 200 years, the noble Lord, Lord Hurd of Westwell, pointed to two contrasting approaches. The first was rather more swashbuckling and interventionist and the second was more reactive or responsive. My instinct is that in the context of this debate we are looking for a responsive approach, tempered by both conscience and a proper political pragmatism. It echoes that stamp of Christian realism established by the American theologian and political theorist Reinhold Niebuhr.

The Congo focuses that dilemma most sharply at present. In his reply to the coalition of religious leaders that I led recently to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the Prime Minister stated unequivocally that,

“human rights abuses, sexual violence and impunity continue to threaten civilians on a daily basis in the DRC”.

He outlined some of the efforts that Her Majesty’s Government are making at present. These crucial efforts have, happily, continued throughout both the present and previous Administrations in Britain.

This debate also follows closely on from the International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women, focusing world attention on the endemic levels of rape and violence against women in the Congo. The use of rape to punish, displace or destroy women and communities in times of conflict has been well documented in recent conflicts around the world. The catastrophic abuse of an individual’s body is used to discipline or consistently undermine the social body. Fear produces control. The rape of women allows for the rape of a country and the taking of its easily appropriable natural resources by destroying the social fabric. The question is one of education and of teaching people to lay hold of their rights. Women human rights defenders are, as the Conservative Party Human Rights Commission’s recent report Supporting Women Human Rights Defenders says, some of the most effective campaigners, and they need our support.

I welcome the Conservative Party Human Rights Commission’s recommendations based on the doctrine of the responsibility to protect. It is a responsibility placed not only on Governments and international bodies but requiring something from every one of us. It is a common responsibility based on a common humanity.

None of this is easy, of course. Indeed, it cannot be transformed immediately into a foreign policy which is both effective in combating brutality, human rights abuses and genocide without direct military intervention. Earlier I referred to a responsive approach tempered by both conscience and a proper political pragmatism. This will require initially intelligent and politically targeted diplomacy. It will also mean similarly targeted approaches to aid.

The situation in the Congo makes it only too plain that the continuing catastrophe is made worse by the collusion, and even intervention, of some neighbouring states. Her Majesty’s Government are clearly aware of this and I would press for an even greater recognition of the need to put pressure on other states. I am glad to pick up the image used by the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich—that of stick and carrot. The stick will, I hope, be diplomacy and not military intervention; the carrot will be careful placing of aid programmes. Ultimately, there may tragically be the need for a military intervention, but that can happen only when it is prosecuted by an internationally legitimate authority. In most cases this will be the United Nations following through its responsibility to protect—the place from which I began.

Looking back to the American Revolution, Thomas Jefferson reflected:

“During the late war I had an infallible rule for deciding what”,

Great Britain,

“would do on every occasion. It was to consider what they ought to do, and to take the reverse of that as what they would assuredly do, and I can say with truth that I was never deceived”.

I hope that is not a comment that a statesman should ever make of Britain today.

12:24

[Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for drawing attention to the Conservative Human Rights Commission. Like the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield, I was particularly interested in its report, Supporting Women Human Rights Defenders. If human rights defenders are front-line people in the fight against the kind of abuses that noble Lords have referred to today, then women human rights defenders are doubly under threat. If people are recognised as human rights defenders they are already pledged to be non-violent, and yet they face violence, torture and death for trying to defend the rights of their communities. Of course men face those issues, too, but, as the right reverend Prelate said, women also face the challenge of rape. They are often the primary carers of their children and, as such, have to worry about them at the same time as standing up for rights. That all occurs in a society whose status quo means that women are not heard, and sometimes not seen, too. Therefore, it is very hard to be a female human rights defender in such a society.

I declare an interest as vice-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary British-Latin America Group, and chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Bolivia. I shall concentrate my remarks on that region of the world. In doing so, I pay particular tribute to four organisations that have acted as my ears and eyes on the ground in Central and South America in between my visits there. Peace Brigades International is a network of international observers of the work of human rights defenders, thereby ensuring—it hopes—that they survive another day to carry out their work. It is an incredible organisation and I know that it talks to other parliamentarians about what is happening on the ground. Without that organisation, it would be much harder to know what is going on.

The Latin American Mining Monitoring Programme is a small charity dedicated to supporting Latin American women and their communities in their campaigns for human rights. It is particularly involved, as is the London Mining Network, in what the right reverend Prelate referred to as the rape of resources—that is, mining. Mining so often constitutes the front-line abuse of human rights—the right to land, to your home and to being able to grow food for your family. The Central America Women’s Network gathers together women from countries across that region to share effective measures, best practice and their stories and passes on that information to us so that we may take action.

Between them, those organisations have introduced me to a breathtakingly brave network of women who face daily threats to themselves and to their families, which, in many ways, is much harder. The Conservative Party’s report, at page 31, gives an example of a woman we will never meet as she was shot when she was eight months pregnant. Her two year-old child was shot at the same time.

Mining companies have a particular duty to do something about human rights, and I accept that some of them may be trying to do so. However, as consumers and shareholders, we also have a responsibility in this area. We cannot ignore that fact. Many noble Lords will have attended the recent event hosted by the noble Lord, Lord Malloch-Brown, at which George Soros talked of what we could do about this matter. We could enact the same legislation as the United States did in July this year. That legislation included a landmark provision requiring oil, gas and mining companies registered with the US Securities and Exchange Commission to publish how much they pay to foreign countries. It is known as the Dodd-Frank Wall Street Reform and Consumer Protection Act. If we are serious about human rights, we need to introduce a similar provision. As long as Governments can receive unknown amounts of money for the rights that we are discussing, corruption can, and does, follow. The communities affected cannot even know what compensation they might reasonably be entitled to. Just before Congress voted this measure through, President Obama said:

“We know that countries are more likely to prosper when governments are accountable to their people. So we are leading a global effort to combat corruption—which in many places is the single greatest barrier to prosperity, and which is a profound violation of human rights”.

If we are to take any action as a result of today’s debate, let us press for our own form of this legislation for companies registered here.

12:29

[Baroness Hollins]

My Lords, it is a privilege to be able to address your Lordships on the subject of human rights, and I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Alton for initiating this very timely debate. But first I would like to thank everyone, especially the staff, who have been so welcoming and so patient in showing me the ropes, making my first weeks in this House such a positive experience. With this marvellous support, and the collective expertise of noble Lords, I anticipate a stimulating and enjoyable membership of this House.

Today I will share my concerns about the rights of people of all ages who live with learning disabilities, previously known perhaps as mental handicap: people who are seen as different, and whose humanity is often not recognised. I know that many Members of this House, including my noble friend Lord Rix, became powerful advocates for people with learning disabilities because of their own family experience. I am grateful to them for the leadership and the inspiration that they have shown.

Much of my life’s work has been informed by family experience. I grew up in Yorkshire watching my father cope with the consequences of war injuries, injuries which eventually caused his death 50 years after D-day. And while this experience set me on a medical career, it is the experience of my son’s learning disability which has inspired me to try to make a difference in the lives of people with learning disabilities. My family experience has had a strong influence on my clinical work, my research and my teaching at St George’s University of London, where for more than 30 years we have been trying to ensure that, at least in the practice of medicine, people with learning disabilities receive appropriate and equal treatment.

I know that my concerns are shared by many parliamentarians, as shown powerfully in the 2008 report on learning disabilities, A Life Like Any Other?, published by the Joint Committee on Human Rights. This report painted a shocking picture of the denial of fundamental human rights to adults living with learning disabilities in the United Kingdom.

I have just returned from Romania, where, as chair of the steering group, I was invited to introduce the Bucharest declaration and action plan at a WHO Europe high-level conference. The declaration is called Better Health, Better Lives, and is about improving the health and well-being of children with learning disabilities and their families. It was co-signed by the regional director of WHO, the regional director of UNICEF and the Romanian Minister of Health on behalf of Ministers of Health from across the WHO region, which comprises 53 countries. The iconic image, which will remain with all of the participants, is of six people with learning disabilities standing and waving the easy-read illustrated version of the declaration after their own presentation to the conference and saying, “We want things to change now”.

In many ways, this declaration was an unlikely occurrence. Noble Lords will have heard about the terrible conditions in which thousands of abandoned babies, disabled children and young people live. Noble Lords may also have seen pictures of children being kept in caged beds, in buildings which are little more than warehouses for abandoned children. Media attention in recent years has focused particularly on Romania, Bulgaria and the Czech Republic, but these countries are not the only ones that are failing children.

There is still poor practice in many parts of our region. As many as a third of a million disabled children and young people still experience discrimination, neglect and abuse in institutions in Europe as well as in other countries throughout the world. Most disabled children, young people and their families are poor, with little formal support being provided for them. Negative attitudes and stereotypes are the norm, and they experience barriers in gaining access to healthcare. These are human rights issues.

The first priority of the Bucharest declaration—to protect children from harm and abuse—recommends that legislation should be reviewed to ensure that it meets human rights standards, especially those set out in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child and the United Nations convention on the rights of disabled persons, both of which this Parliament has ratified. I do not have time today, nor would it be appropriate in a maiden speech, to share the other priorities or the detailed action plan which accompanies the declaration, but these are available on the WHO website.

I am pleased to report that our Government were represented at the Bucharest conference by Dr Roger Banks, a senior psychiatrist working in learning disability services. The UK’s progress in planning for and meeting the needs of these children and their families offers some important lessons for elsewhere in Europe. Take, for example, the 2001 English White Paper, Valuing People, about the needs of people with learning disabilities, and the independent inquiry, of which I was a member, that the Secretary of State set up at the instigation of MENCAP, to examine whether and why people with learning disabilities are discriminated against in our hospitals. Two important monitoring projects have also been established: a confidential inquiry into avoidable deaths and a learning disabilities observatory to collect monitoring data.

I am encouraged that the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, has convened an advisory group on human rights challenges to inform his work at the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. I sincerely hope that this group will have regard to the human rights abuses affecting disabled children and young people in many parts of the world. I should like to ask him to convene a round table to discuss how expertise in this country can best be used to improve the human rights of children and young people with intellectual disabilities internationally.

I conclude my comments with the following aphorism. If we can get it right for people with learning disabilities, we can get it right for other citizens. I hope noble Lords will join me in promoting policy that makes a real difference in people’s lives, by putting disabled people at the centre of the human rights debate. Thank you.

12:30

[Lord Hastings of Scarisbrick]

My Lords, it is a huge privilege and honour to be able to welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, and to congratulate her on her very powerful maiden speech. She began her great life of compassion and commitment before she went as a VSO volunteer to Nigeria in the mid-1960s to work as head of science in a girls’ secondary school. Her litany of responsibilities, duties, commitments, committees and professional obligations make absolutely the embodiment of the big society and allow us in this House to receive her wisdom, which she will give to us over many years. She has continued in those roles while being a school governor of many London schools and, in her professional expertise, while sitting on committees that have brought her to the place of being a former president of the Royal College of Psychiatrists and now a professor of psychiatry and disability at St George’s, University of London.

We should also note that she is a prolific author, as I discovered from her CV. She has had published 200 books, chapters and articles on learning disabilities. This is an issue on which she cares deeply, emotionally, practically and professionally. For that we are deeply grateful. That is why, if I may say so, we need quality people such as the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, on the Cross Benches and in this House.

I move on to the subject of this debate. I want to respond to the remarks made by my noble friend Lord Sacks, who rightly pointed out that we need to go beyond declarations into education. Perhaps I may add another “E” and move beyond education into enforcement.

For a poor person in the developing world, the struggle for human rights is not an abstract fight over political freedom or over the prosecution of large-scale war crimes, but a matter of daily survival. It is the struggle to avoid extortion or abuse by local police, the struggle against being forced into slavery or having land stolen, or the struggle to avoid being thrown arbitrarily into an overcrowded, disease-ridden jail with little or no prospect of a fair trial. For women and children, it is the struggle not to be assaulted, raped, molested, or forced into the commercial sex trade.

Efforts by the modern human rights movement over the past 60 years have contributed to the criminalisation of these abuses in nearly every country in the world. However, the problem for the poor, however, is that those laws are rarely, if ever, significantly enforced. At the same time, this state of functional lawlessness allows corrupt officials and local criminals to block or steal many of the crucial goods and services provided by the international development community. These abuses are both a moral tragedy and wholly counterproductive to the foreign aid programmes of countries in the developed world. Helping construct effective public justice systems in the developing world, therefore, must become the new mandate of the human rights movement in the 21st century.

In June 2008, a report was published by the United Nations that estimated that 4 billion people live outside the protection of the rule of law. As the report concluded,

“most poor people do not live under the shelter of the law”.

Instead, they inhabit a world in which the perpetrators of abuse and violence are unrestrained by the fear of punishment. In this world, virtually every component of the public justice system—police, defence lawyers, prosecutors and courts—works against, not with, the poor in providing the protections of the law. Take, for example, the police. For most of the world's poor, the local police force is their primary contact with the public justice system. The average poor person in the developing world has probably never met a police officer who is not at best corrupt, or at worst gratuitously brutal. In fact, the most pervasive criminal presence for the global poor is frequently their own police force. A 2006 study in Kenya, for example, revealed that 65 per cent of those citizens polled reported difficulty obtaining help from the police, and 29 per cent said they had had to make “extraordinary efforts” to avoid problems with the police in the past year. According to a 1999 World Bank study, poor people in the developing world view the police as a group of “vigilantes and criminals” who actively harass, oppress and brutalise them. Many countries in the developing world do not recognise a right to indigent legal representation, leaving those who cannot afford a lawyer to navigate the legal process without an advocate.

If the first stage of the modern human rights movement was largely intellectual, the second has become political. During the past 25 to 30 years, the movement for human rights has embedded the growing body of international norms into national law, and for that we should be profoundly grateful, but two generations of global human rights efforts have been predicated, consciously or unconsciously, on assumptions about the effectiveness of the public justice systems in the developing world. Those systems clearly lack effective enforcement tools. As a result, the great legal reforms of the human rights movement often deliver only empty parchment promises to the poorest people on our planet. In large part, the human rights community, which includes various UN bodies and agencies, government offices, non-governmental organisations and individual jurists and scholars, exists to defend the victimised, particularly where more powerful actors have little incentive to act on their behalf. Yet throughout the history of the modern human rights movement, this community has largely neglected the task of helping to build public justice systems in the developing world that work for the poor.

In conclusion, I advocate that if we add to education, let us also add the right of enforcement.

12:44

Lord Trimble: My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Alton, on obtaining this debate. I also congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, on her maiden speech. My contribution will focus on an institution that ought to be a major engine for the promotion of human rights: the United Nations Human Rights Council.

We should start by acknowledging that the United Nations, through its original human rights commission, started with an impressive human rights record—the universal declaration and the subsequent charters, covenants and mechanisms which require that member states commit to some level of respect for the human rights of their citizens. However, the human rights commission was eventually captured by abusers in order to shield themselves from the enforcement of the standards embodied in the mechanisms I have mentioned. Reform became necessary, and that resulted in the creation of the Human Rights Council in 2006-07. However, as the Conservative Human Rights Commission observed in its 2008 report, Globalising Human Rights:

“Far from being a fresh start, the New Human Rights Council continues to be beset by problems relating to the size and structures of its membership and evidence from its early sessions, suggests that it is aping some of the worst characteristics of its predecessor”.

In September 2009, Freedom House published what it called a report card for the two-year period beginning with the conclusion of the Human Rights Council's institution-building process in June 2007 through to the end of the 11th session in June 2009. Its primary finding was that a small but active group of countries with very poor human rights records had succeeded in limiting the council's ability to protect human rights. I give two extracts from the report to illustrate this. The first is:

“The Council’s ability to pass strong resolutions that address either country-specific human rights violations or global human rights issues has been dismal. In the past two years, the Council has managed to issue condemnatory resolutions on just a handful of countries: Burma, the Democratic Republic of Congo, North Korea, Somalia, and Israel. Council resolutions regarding massive and ongoing human rights violations in Sudan and following the conflict in Sri Lanka were weak and in both cases actually praised governments for their actions. No resolutions were passed condemning the governments of Belarus, Chad, China, Cuba, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Laos, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, or Zimbabwe, which rank at the very bottom of Freedom House’s list of Not Free countries and which systematically deny their citizens fundamental political rights and civil liberties”.

The second is:

“On Darfur, the Council attempted to take various actions—including the creation of a high-level mission to visit Sudan and later a resolution establishing an experts group of special procedures mandate holders—but these efforts were thwarted primarily by the Africa Group under Egypt’s leadership. Resolutions adopted at the 6th and 7th sessions actually praised Sudan’s efforts to improve the human rights situation”.

The report card that Freedom House published in September this year was to the same effect. One of the points that caught my eye was:

“'Deeply Flawed Elections: Elections to the Council have seen a decrease in the number of candidates with strong human rights records each year since the first ballot in 2006. A significant number of democracies continue to vote for repressive countries, including even those with the world's worst human rights records, such as Libya”.

Over that period, according to Freedom House’s classification, not free countries have been roughly level-pegging at about 20 per cent of the council; the percentage of partly free countries has gone from the high 20s to the high 30s; and the percentage of free countries has dropped from just over 50 per cent to just over 40 per cent. That is not a trend that one would like.

The other point that I take from this year’s report card relates to NGO accreditation:

“The Committee on Non-governmental Organizations, which oversees the accreditation process for NGOs, has become increasingly politicized and is dominated by some of the world’s most aggressive opponents of universal standards on human rights. Latin America, the region with the second largest number of Free countries and electoral democracies according to Freedom in the World, has allowed three of its four seats to be occupied by some of its worst performers on human rights and civic participation. The committee”—

that is, the Committee on Non-Governmental Organisations—

“should be replaced with a professional bureau that would evaluate organizations on a purely technical basis”.

In its annual report for 2008, the Conservative Human Rights Commission proposed reforms which I summarise as follows: potential members to have ratified a core list of human rights treaties; potential members should have their record independently reviewed by experts; the universal periodic review should be strengthened; and membership of the council should be reduced further. I think that something more radical is needed. The problem will continue because major abusers can organise the election of states that will protect abusers and organise or buy the election of such states. This leads to the view that elections must either be cleaned up or curtailed and more weight placed on professional elements in this matter.

In his Lincoln’s Inn speech, which was mentioned with approval earlier in this debate, the Foreign Secretary set the goal of United Nations reform and included,

“a more effective UN Human Rights Council”.

I am delighted to see that that is one of the goals, and I look forward to hearing what the Minister can say on this point in reply.

12:50

[Lord Browne of Ladyton]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for securing this debate. He promised us an interesting and engaging debate and it has been both of those thus far. On the subject of interesting, engaging and educative, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, on her maiden speech and I look forward to her contributions in future. It is perfectly clear that a substantial part of our community now has a very eloquent advocate in the House. I am sure that she will talk knowledgably and interestingly on many other subjects.

I commend the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, on using his comparatively short time in a characteristically valuable way. I have had recent experience of the organisation that he speaks of and I share a lot of his observations in practice, particularly in relation to Sri Lanka. While I am addressing contributions, because I found them all valuable, I shall express a prejudice to the argument that the noble Lord, Lord Hastings, put before your Lordships’ House. From my experience in both Iraq and Afghanistan, I might find some opportunity in future to show where the international community has failed in doing just what the noble Lord described in conflict resolution.

I do not envy the Minister in responding to this debate, given its diversity and the interesting nature of the speeches that have been made so far. There are more to come and while I have no intention of adding to his challenges, I intend to draw him on the coalition Government’s policy and proposed actions on the continuing human rights challenges faced by the people of Sri Lanka in particular.

I do not think that this is a declaration of interest but I remind the House that I was the special envoy of the previous Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, to Sri Lanka. I was privileged to hold that job from early 2009, when more than 100,000 people were trapped at the height of the end of the conflict, until the general election. I suppose that I do not need also to remind the House that, as has been recorded, my appointment, although initially agreed to by the Government of Sri Lanka, shortly became an issue of division within their coalition Government, resulting in a lamentable lack of public co-operation with me in that role. Privately, however, I had numerous meetings with representatives of the Government and their emissaries. I do not consider the public posture that they adopted to me to be in any sense personal, because they have adopted that posture to a significant number of emissaries, including most recently the three-person panel of experts appointed by the United Nations Secretary-General.

Despite the vanquishing of the LTTE and the apparent end to 30 years of the most atrocious violence and abuses by all sides to the conflict in that beautiful island of Sri Lanka, despite the renewed and increased electoral mandate that the Government of President Rajapaksa enjoys, which was gained on a manifesto of reconciliation and respect for minority rights, among many other arguments that he put forward, despite a personal commitment that he gave to the United Nations Secretary-General in May 2009 that he would take measures to address possible violations of international humanitarian and human rights law, and, despite the repeated but often rebuffed efforts of the international community to support an agenda of reconciliation and respect, there are in Sri Lanka, as Alistair Burt, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary, told the other place on 16 June:

“widespread and persistent allegations of”,

continuing,

“human rights abuses by both state and non-state actors”.—[Official Report, Commons, 16/6/10; col. 166WH.]

My observation on the pervasive propaganda of the media in Sri Lanka is that there are, as the noble Lord, Lord Sacks, identified, the beginnings if not the developing evidence of a culture of hate there against the Tamil minority, which will lead inevitably to just the sort of consequences that we have seen all too often around the world.

Reports of the Government of Sri Lanka and their agents committing arbitrary and unlawful killings, including credible reports of the police and other security forces killing detained suspects, are all-pervasive. I remind the House that successive commissions of inquiry under the warrant of the President have all run into the sand and lack credibility. There have been disappearances, many of which can be brought to the door of paramilitary groups operating on behalf of government military forces. Civil society groups and former prisoners report several torture cases, involving beatings with bars or bats, electric shocks, suspending victims in contorted positions, asphyxiation and many other horrible acts. Yet because of restricted access for humanitarian organisations, the evidence of that sort of behaviour is very difficult to find.

I could go on but I am conscious of the time. The point I wish to make is that there has been no lack of engagement by the international community or by successive Governments, including this Government, in trying to deal with the issues on that island which is, I remind your Lordships, a holiday island for many of our fellow citizens. There have been many assurances and substantial rhetoric from the Government of Sri Lanka but very little evidence of any improvement. In the debate that I referred to in the other place the Parliamentary Under-Secretary, a Minister for whom I have the enormous respect, assured that House that this Government were convinced that the present Government of Sri Lanka intend to deal with those issues. That assertion, in my view, is denied by the facts that are known more broadly.

On a note which is slightly inconsistent with the rest of this debate, I say to the Minister that I regret the fact that during the visit of the President of that country over the past few days, the Secretary of State for Defence chose to meet him in a private capacity. I anticipated that the meeting would be used for propaganda purposes and, this morning, I see on the front page of the Government of Sri Lanka’s website them doing just that. I encourage Ministers to meet members of the Government of Sri Lanka but I would much prefer that it was done openly and reported in a very transparent fashion. I thank noble Lords for listening with respect to my observations.

12:57

[Baroness O'Loan]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Alton, has served this House well in seeking today’s debate on human rights abuses worldwide. I add my congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, on her powerful maiden speech and I look forward to further interventions.

Much has been achieved in the United Kingdom through its actions to protect human rights. However, much remains to be done both domestically and internationally. Parents are often told that children learn effectively from the behaviour of their parents and that one should model the behaviour which one seeks to secure. That adage, it seems to me, is equally applicable to the role of governments internationally and in particular to the British Government, who have exercised such a prominent position on the international stage for centuries. However, so many issues cause concern.

I think, for example, of the issue of the UK making arrangements to allow the United States to store cluster bombs here on a “temporary” basis, despite the UK's ratification of the international convention on cluster bombs. Cluster bombs, as we all know, have the potential to cause massive injury to the civilian population. In all our actions, that which we do privately must be consistent with that which we do publicly. Otherwise, in this modern information age, we will be rightly shamed and our reputation damaged.

The Conservative Party commission on human rights refers to mistakes made in the past and says that,

“it is by questioning the humanitarian contradictions and misguided motivations behind events, like the Iraq war and Afghanistan, that we learn from our shortcomings”.

We have much to learn from the experiences of armed conflict over the past 50 years—conflict in which we have been directly engaged and conflict in which we have adopted the role of negotiator, mediator, peacemaker, peacebuilder or peacekeeper—but sometimes it has seemed to me that each generation and group needs to be reminded of our history and of global history. I associate myself with the remarks of various noble Lords, in particular those of the noble Lord, Lord Sacks, on the protection of the right of freedom of religion.

I shall allude first to the difficult issue of the methods used by countries fighting what is generally referred to as the war against terrorism. We saw the decision by the Government just two weeks ago to pay compensation to 12 men who alleged that the UK was involved in their transfer to the Guantanamo Bay detention centre, in which they were interrogated and tortured. This is not the first time that a claim of UK government complicity in torture has been raised. The Prime Minister rightly contradicted the recent claim by President Bush that controversial interrogation techniques had protected the UK from further terrorist attacks. The experience in Northern Ireland and across the world is that the use of such techniques creates hostility to the Government and increased recruitment to terrorist organisations.

During the early years of the Troubles in Northern Ireland, a number of techniques were used by state interrogators to secure information from detainees. Five of those techniques—wall-standing, hooding, noise, sleep deprivation, and food and drink deprivation—were routinely used. Until 1975, officials denied that these techniques, described by detainees, were used, referring to the allegations of torture as IRA propaganda. However, they were not propaganda. Ultimately, the European Court, although not finding torture, announced that the techniques,

“undoubtedly amounted to inhuman and degrading treatment”,

in breach of Article 3 of the European convention. On 8 February 1977, the UK announced to the European Court:

“The Government … have considered the question of the use of the ‘five techniques’ with very great care and with particular regard to Article 3 … of the Convention. They now give this unqualified undertaking, that the ‘five techniques’ will not in any circumstances be reintroduced as an aid to interrogation”.

However, in March 2007, the judge presiding over the court martial of seven UK military personnel charged in connection with the torture and death in September 2003 of Baha Mousa and the treatment of eight Iraqi civilians arrested and detained in a UK military base in Basra stated that hooding detainees, keeping them in stress positions and depriving them of sleep had become standard operating procedures within the battalion responsible for detaining the men. Following a number of court hearings, the then Defence Secretary admitted substantive breaches of the European convention and the Armed Forces Minister apologised. The Government paid £2.83 million in compensation.

As we contemplate the announcement last month of the payment of damages for further alleged breaches of human rights, it is obviously profoundly important that the Government ensure that in all their dealings with other states in connection with any of their international activities in conflict zones there is a clear understanding that such techniques will not be used. Equally, it is fundamentally important that British personnel serving abroad, whether in a military or a peacekeeping capacity, are reminded of their obligations to adhere to all the relevant standards of behaviour. There must be a commitment to punish those who act in breach of particular codes of conduct and, in particular, in breach of the criminal law of the host country. The United Kingdom should use its influence to ensure the regulation of the activities of international peacekeeping forces.

I want to contemplate also what the United Kingdom can do to enhance the position of women caught in conflict and, in particular, to enhance their roles as peacemakers and negotiators, because without peace there can be no effective protection of human rights. Many women caught in conflict work for peace long before the international peacemakers arrive. In a context of seeing their children taken as child soldiers, of experiencing rape used as a tool of war, of being displaced and of being forced to flee as refugees, there will be women who strive for peace. Their primary need is for security, which is more important even than food and water. Notwithstanding that, women will get together in small groups and begin to try to find a way to peace. They will care for each other’s children, mind the market stalls and share their few goods with each other. They will need help from the very beginning, and government can assist in these matters. Thus will human rights be protected.

The process of nationbuilding/peacebuilding is one in which women have a minimal role in most cases. In many instances we are not able to achieve sustainable peace agreements, and I suppose my question is whether the absence of women at the peace table is a factor and whether their presence would enable such agreements to be achieved. In this context, I think that the UK must ensure that it does all it can to put women at the heart of any peace process in which it is involved. Failure to do so will mean that our calls for the involvement of women will be rejected.

I have run out of time but I should like also to call for enhanced articulation of the United Kingdom’s opposition to the death penalty and to draw attention, as the noble Lord, Lord Alton, did, to the issue of slavery.

13:05

[Lord Harries of Pentregarth]

My Lords, I, too, am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for initiating this debate, and it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins. As we have heard, she is a former president of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, and I know that the House will be greatly helped by her long and very distinguished career in the field of learning disabilities and mental health.

I am also very pleased to note the report of the Conservative Party Human Rights Commission and I very strongly support what the noble Lord, Lord Alton, has said about its recommendations.

I am of course aware that this debate has already covered a wide range of human rights issues, in all of which your Lordships will have a proper concern because human rights are indivisible. If I had time, I would certainly mention a good number, not least the increasingly tense situation in West Papua, where human rights are being ever more violated. Just recently there was a film on television of an indigenous West Papuan being brutally tortured. However, because of time, I am going to focus on only one concern—the situation of the Dalits in the world, and I declare an interest as chair of the all-party parliamentary group.

Recently I claimed that the struggle to support the rights of Dalits was comparable with the struggle to end apartheid in a previous generation, and I was publicly challenged over that comparison. I am glad to be challenged because it enables us to think more clearly about the exact nature of this issue, and of course it is a great help to be forced to think more clearly.

The struggle to support the rights of Dalits is not like apartheid in one respect, in the sense that the Indian constitution, to take one example, is in principle admirable, respecting the rights of all peoples, whereas apartheid was of course a state system. However, I suggest that the oppression of the Dalits is worse than apartheid in a number of respects. The first is the sheer scale of the problem. It has been reckoned that there are 250 million Dalits in the world—one in 40 of the world’s population—and their oppression is a blight that affects not just India but surrounding countries such as Pakistan, Bangladesh and Nepal, and sadly even the Asian diaspora in this country. Secondly, it is difficult to imagine any form of social rejection more degrading or humiliating than that experienced by the Dalits. The caste system is complex but the point about the Dalits—the former untouchables—is that they are outside it altogether. They have no assured place and are regarded as less than human, so that those of so-called higher castes are unwilling to be touched by them, to have any social intercourse with them or even, for example, to touch a dog that has been touched by a Dalit. They are relegated to jobs such as manual scavenging—that is, clearing out human excreta by hand from dry latrines.

The psychological effects of that, together with the economic and political implications, are not difficult to imagine. As Christian Solidarity Worldwide has put it, the impact of the caste system on the Dalits is,

“connected with almost all human rights concerns in India”.

One issue with which another organisation, the Dalit Freedom Network, is particularly concerned is the trafficking of Dalits, whose marginal and vulnerable position in society makes them the main victims of all forms of trafficking, leading to bonded labour, sex trafficking and ritualised prostitution. As we know, women and, in particular, children are especially at risk in these areas.

The Dalit issue raises one very fundamental aspect of human rights—the role of the wider society in economic, civic and social aspects. Human rights, when first formulated after World War II, were primarily concerned to protect the rights of the individual against the state, and that remains fundamental, as we have heard on many occasions this morning. However, the position of the Dalits highlights that society as a whole has a role and a responsibility in ensuring that basic human rights are recognised. For example, British foreign aid to India does, I understand, recognise the oppressed position of the Dalits and ensures that aid is significantly directed towards bettering their position, but what about the employment practices of DfID offices, embassies and other government agencies working in India and other parts of the world? Do they make provision for the employment of a fair percentage of Dalit personnel? Do they monitor their employment practices with a view to that end? I should particularly like to pose that question to the Minister. Then there are the employment practices of British companies working in that part of the world.

Finally, when it comes to this country, some of us were greatly surprised and shocked to learn that discrimination against Dalits had travelled here with the Asian diaspora. That is why we sought to put a clause in the Equality Bill which outlawed discrimination on the grounds of caste. In the event, the Government decided to introduce an order-making power, pending evidence of discrimination in the areas of employment, education and the provision of goods and services. I know for a fact that there is such discrimination, but we are still awaiting a report commissioned by the Government on this issue. Again, I look to the Minister to see when that report is going to be produced.

The position of the Dalits is a scandal in the modern world. It is one that needs to be addressed in different ways by all elements in society—by the Government, of course, but also by companies, civic leaders and religious leaders.

13:11

[Baroness Morris of Bolton]

My Lords, this is an important moment in the development of what the Foreign Secretary, my right honourable friend William Hague, has termed “foreign policy with a conscience”. I pay tribute to noble Lords, Members of another place, the Diplomatic Service, NGOs and all women and men who are working tirelessly and with deep commitment to advance human rights in remote corners of the earth, and who keep human rights abuses on the agenda of Her Majesty’s Government. In this respect, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, on her maiden speech and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, on his dedication and passion in standing up for the oppressed and dispossessed. I, too, am full of admiration for the noble Lord, and I thank him for giving us the opportunity to debate these vital issues today. Lastly, I pay tribute to my party’s human rights commission on its excellent work.

For the purpose of this debate, I declare my interests as a member of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, chairman of the Conservative Middle East Council, vice-chairman of the Britain-Palestine All-Party Parliamentary Group and a trustee of UNICEF UK. I will focus my remarks on two areas in which I have a particular interest and where the plight of the people should make us all stop and think. They are the Democratic Republic of Congo, and Gaza. These two places face very different conditions, but each tells a tale of the crushing of human spirit and the waste of human potential. Each requires immediate, collective and effective measures by the humanitarian community and major aid donors.

The situation of women in the DRC, which was recently described as the rape capital of the world, is dire. From the start of the war, Congolese women and young girls have been systematically targeted by all parties to the conflict. It is so bad that Vava Tampa, the founding director of Save the Congo, has said that every woman is a rape victim in waiting. As the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield stated so powerfully, the use of rape to punish, displace or destroy women and communities in times of conflict is well documented. However, what makes the raping of women and girls, and sometimes of men and baby boys, in the Congo most tragic is its blood-chilling scale, its effect on the social fabric of Congolese society, and the disastrous consequences for the Congo and the Great Lakes region for many years to come. I hope my noble friend the Minister can tell us what we are doing to ensure that appropriate mechanisms are put in place to end the growing culture of impunity that lies behind the cycle of atrocities in the Congo.

John Ging, a most inspirational man and director of operations in Gaza for the UN Relief and Works Agency, said recently:

“We have run out of words to describe how bad it is here”.

A month ago, I returned from a trip to Gaza. I was enormously moved by the plight of the people, and three things I saw have made a lasting impression. The first was a visit to the al-Shifa hospital, where vital medical equipment lies idle because of a lack of spare parts, and where we met patients denied permission to leave Gaza for life-saving treatment, often without any explanation given as to why that permission had been denied. I implore the Government to use all the diplomacy at their disposal to ensure that the medical needs of the people of Gaza are met.

The second visit to make a lasting impression was to an UNRWA food distribution centre where proud, well-educated men and women were queuing for their quarterly rations of food. Eighty per cent of the population of Gaza receives food aid, yet there has been no flood, no failure of crops and no earthquake, just a shutdown of the system that denies the people the chance to work because there are no jobs, and there are no jobs because they cannot import materials, they cannot manufacture goods and they cannot export. Nor can they travel to Israel any more to the jobs they used to enjoy. I have to tell your Lordships that I felt deep shame, and I pay tribute to the decency, good humour and enormous resilience of the Palestinian people, who wish to be good neighbours to Israel and who have so much to offer to the world.

Finally, I visited a human rights class in an UNRWA school in the Beach refugee camp. There, despite their circumstances, the 15 year-old girls were beautifully dressed. They were attentive, clever and articulate, and their grasp of human rights and the attendant responsibilities to people of all backgrounds and all religions or none would put most grown-ups in the western world to shame, and would have gladdened the heart of the noble Lord, Lord Sacks. At the end of the lesson I was asked by one of the girls whether I thought they had a future to look forward to. I hope I was right when I said yes.

13:17

[Lord Luce]

My Lords, I, too, have great admiration for my noble friend Lord Alton for the way in which he most vigorously, consistently and courageously pursues human rights issues in the world. We owe him a lot for that. I congratulate my noble friend Lady Hollins on her excellent maiden speech and for the distinctive role that she clearly has to play in this House. We also owe gratitude to my noble friend Lord Alton for the fact that so much attention has been drawn to the Conservative Party today for its work on human rights. As a result, I have read two of its commission’s documents, which were produced this year and which are of excellent quality and make a major contribution to the debate on human rights.

I wish to make three points, of which the last is the most distinctive. First, in dealing with human rights, we need to be pragmatic. We need to use our influence in whichever ways are the most sensible for each country. How we deal with Russia, China, Burma, Zimbabwe—or indeed Sri Lanka, which we have heard about this afternoon— must vary according to our level of influence, our interests and our general relationship. We can pursue these issues bilaterally or multilaterally. As an example of the latter, I cite the Commonwealth as one of the best because we are all committed as members of it to respect for human rights, democracy, a free press and the rule of law. There is also a practical way of moving things forward through the Commonwealth Ministerial Action Group, which intervenes when there is evidence of serious abuses in Commonwealth countries.

Secondly, we need to be concerned about how we exert our influence on human rights. I am glad to say that this has not happened in today’s debate, but very often we still have from a lot of people, although not from this House, a rather patronising and lecturing approach towards other countries. That is something that we really must do away with once and for all. The Empire ended a long time ago, and we need a continuous dialogue with other countries about how and why we see respect for human rights as the best way to move to a more civilised way of life.

My third point is about making sure that our own house is in order when we talk about human rights in other countries. Whether we are dealing with the management of democracy or the rights of the individual, we cannot really stand up and talk to other people about these issues unless we are credible at home. I shall highlight that with one illustration only, which is the way in which we have treated one small group of people in the Indian Ocean. The Chagossians were expelled from the British Indian Ocean Territory in the late 1960s by the then Labour Government. To my mind, that was a gross injustice. While it was perfectly reasonable to set up a naval base for the United States in Diego Garcia, that should not have been at the expense of those islanders, who were dispatched to Mauritius and the Seychelles. Now, surprisingly, many of them are living nearby in Crawley. No Government since, including the one of which I was a member, have rectified this injustice.

Article 9 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights says:

“No one shall be subject to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile”.

There have been endless court cases and judgments in the past few years on the question of the Chagossians and I will not weary the House with the details. At the moment, the Chagossians are appealing to the European Court of Human Rights for their right of return to be restored. There are many related issues. There is now a marine protection area in the Indian Ocean around the islands. I strongly support that—it is an excellent idea—but it should not be at the expense of the Chagossians playing a part and having jobs relating to those environmental issues.

Like others, I have no doubt that the Foreign Secretary is strongly committed to human rights. When he was in opposition, he called for a fair and just settlement to this issue. In September this year, in setting up the advisory body to identify human rights abuses, he said:

“we will not apply double standards … where problems have arisen that have affected the UK’s … standing we will deal with them patiently and clearly”.

My appeal to the Government is to work out—over the next four or five years, not in the immediate future—a strategy to find a solution to this. That must be done in conjunction with Mauritius, as we have agreed that Mauritius has the right to restore its sovereignty over that territory once it is no longer needed for military purposes. I am not expecting the Minister to give a response today and I very much respect the fact that the Government are trying to find a way forward. We need to look at this in a longer-term way.

The 1966 exchange of letters between Britain and the United States led to the present arrangements, which are due to be reviewed by 2014, prior to the renewal of the exchange of letters for another 20 years after 2016. This seems to be the opportunity for the British Government to work out a strategy and find a way to do justice to these people, who have been extremely badly treated. It will involve working out with the Mauritians some compromise proposals for the outer isles, which are well away from Diego Garcia and where problems of security can be overcome in discussion with the United States. In terms of the economy, we need to work out how we can deal with the resettlement of the probably not many people who want to live and work in the area. Prime Minister Ramgoolam of Mauritius told me this summer that he looks forward to working constructively with the British Government for a fair solution. I appeal to the Minister and his colleagues to look at this seriously in the lead-up to the review of the exchange of letters and to find an answer that will do justice to these people and enable us as a nation to hold our head just a little higher when we are talking with other countries about human rights.

13:24

[Lord Bates]

I, too, pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for giving us the opportunity for this debate. He is a rare champion for human rights, on which he has been consistent and persistent. In the role that he performs in this House, he is remarkably similar to Gary Streeter, my honourable friend in another place, who was the first chairman of the Conservative Human Rights Commission, set up in 2005 by William Hague. He, too, speaks up on these matters and has been a quiet and persistent voice representing the conscience of the Conservative Party and Parliament more widely. The commission’s work is to be approved and built on.

As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, said, it is no surprise that the Foreign Secretary should, as William Wilberforce’s biographer, find inspiration in Wilberforce—I know that my right honourable friend was moved by researching his life. My right honourable friend had the vision to ask what Britain can do that is similarly ambitious. He arrived at the area of human rights, about which he feels deeply passionate. When we as parliamentarians talk about the effect of Wilberforce, I am always mindful of the story that, although after many attempts he got the abolition of slavery through this House, it required policing by the Royal Navy to uphold the legislation. I think I am right in saying that that is still the most costly campaign that the Royal Navy has ever undertaken. Upholding the law is critical to our declarations of human rights, which are otherwise mere aspiration—there is no rigour to them.

It was not by accident, perhaps, that the Foreign Secretary should choose Lincoln’s Inn as the place in which to espouse his vision of a new impetus in the push for human rights. He said:

“The law is central to our values and is also the product of the same steady process of accumulation. The principles of due process and of no punishment without the law are both found in Magna Carta. The law is the ultimate guarantor of the rights of individuals”.

That is a powerful point. We need a degree of humility here. If we want to espouse human rights, we also have to be prepared to subjugate ourselves to the law, particularly the international law set up and articulated in the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights and the European Convention on Human Rights. We have to say that we are subject to that law. We have to behave accordingly and respect those institutions. If not, you end up with a kind of Melian dialogue in which, as has been said, the great powers do as they will and the weak suffer as they must. That is no fair world, whatever the aspirations. We all have to be subject to the law. Following the law and institutions is critical in this.

I illustrate that by talking about an opportunity that is coming up, although it may seem tangential to this debate. I have been rattling on—without a great deal of support from my own side, it has to be said—about the campaign for the Olympic Truce. Why do I mention the Olympic Truce? I do so because it is backed by a United Nations resolution, which says that during the period of the Olympic Games, in London in 2012, all member states will take initiatives to pursue peace and reconciliation. The resolution is signed by all 193 member states, but there is no record of any Government or signatory taking any initiative for peace and reconciliation during any Olympic Games.

I know that there is a technical argument about General Assembly resolutions and Chapter VII United Nations Security Council resolutions but, be that as it may, my view is that the United Nations is our only hope for a rules-based international system. Therefore, we should take it seriously. When this Government, as the Government of the host nation, propose the resolution to the United Nations that we will pursue initiatives for peace and reconciliation, it behoves us to take that seriously. When we start taking seriously what we say in such fora, the message goes out and adds weight to the other excellent things that we are doing in the field of human rights and about which we have been talking.

13:29

[Lord Wright of Richmond]

My Lords, I shall briefly pursue two themes in the short time that we have available to us in this debate. The first relates to North Korea. My noble friend Lord Alton of Liverpool called for a new peace conference to be jointly convened by Switzerland and Britain and held in Beijing to enable North and South Korea to conclude a formal peace treaty on the precedent of the Helsinki process. Having attended the Helsinki conference in 1976, I am as aware as anyone—although perhaps we were not all fully aware at the time—of the extent to which that conference was to lead to the collapse of the totalitarian system in the Soviet empire, ending much of the violation of human rights that went with those systems. My noble friend’s proposal is one that deserves serious and urgent consideration and support.

My second theme is to draw attention once again, as I have so often in this House, to the appalling abuse of the human rights of Palestinians in Gaza, in the occupied West Bank and in east Jerusalem. I submit that this is, in some ways, even more shocking than many of the human rights abuses to which noble Lords have drawn attention in this debate, since they are violations committed by the Government of a self-proclaimed democracy who pride themselves on the rule of law, and who should be ashamed, as many of their citizens and supporters are, to have their human rights record bracketed with the monstrous regime of North Korea. Leaving aside the illegality of the growing settlements in the West Bank, and the increasing violation of human rights to which various independent reports have drawn attention during the past year, there is continuing destruction of olive groves and other means of Palestinian livelihood in the West Bank, and the destruction and blockade of roads that enable West Bank Palestinians to move from the West Bank to Jerusalem. Then there is the treatment of children in Israeli military courts, the eviction of Palestinians and the demolition of their homes in East Jerusalem and the extension of the wall, which blocks access for Palestinians to their homes, to medical care, to their place of work and, often, to their schools, thereby depriving them of their right to education, to which the noble Lord, Lord Sacks, referred so eloquently. I hope that the Minister will be able to assure the House that Her Majesty’s Government continue not only to protest to the Government of Mr Netanyahu about these violations but to join our European partners in drawing them to the attention of our American friends.

Only the United States Government have unique potential influence on the Israelis to stop these abuses, which represent a serious, and probably fatal, block on any progress towards a two-state settlement of this long-running dispute. Since this debate falls only a few days after the opening of the new European Delegation Office in Washington, I hope that this provides an opportunity for our embassy in Washington to work even more closely with our European partners to persuade the United States Administration to recognise that Israeli violation of human rights risks destroying any hope of achieving a situation whereby Israel and her Palestinian neighbour can live together in peace and mutual respect.

13:33

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for initiating this debate today and attracting such a very impressive list of speakers. I offer my congratulations to the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, on her maiden speech. It was a remarkably powerful and memorable maiden speech. She will be an enormous asset to this House.

I welcome the Foreign Secretary’s commitment in his speech of 15 September at Lincoln’s Inn, when he said:

“There will be no downgrading of human rights under this government”.

I welcome his important acknowledgment that:

“Where human rights abuses go unchecked our security suffers”.

But I was sorry that he decided to repeat and misquote the speech by my late right honourable friend Robin Cook in 1997. In that speech, my late right honourable friend made points that were very similar to those made by the Foreign Secretary some 13 years later. He said:

“Our foreign policy must have an ethical dimension and must support the demands of other peoples for the democratic rights on which we insist for ourselves”.

An ethical dimension to foreign policy is really not so very different from—as the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, acknowledged, and as the Foreign Secretary says—foreign policy with a conscience.

I go to a point from the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, and her contention about the report in today’s Guardian concerning the story of cluster bombs on UK territory. It is inaccurate—and I think that examination of the leaked document itself shows that it is an inaccurate report.

Most of us have an inherent sense of what human beings are entitled to in terms of certain protections and freedoms. Clearly, our support for democracy and the freedom of expression that is an inalienable part of the democratic process is one of the bedrock principles. Whether it is the brutal suppression of protesters in Iran after the elections this year, the murder of human rights workers in Russia, the attacks on brave women who assert their rights on the streets of Sudan or Afghanistan, or the abuse of the rights of gay people in some African countries, we acknowledge that we have a duty to help and defend those who ask only for what we enjoy ourselves every day in this country.

On this side of the House we recognise the practical implications of such a position. For example, there is the Westminster Foundation for Democracy, which supports such efforts in Ukraine, Georgia, Lebanon, Uganda, Mozambique, Kenya and many other countries. Can the Minister explain why the foundation’s funding is to be cut by the coalition and how such a cut is comparable with the Foreign Secretary’s right-minded pledge to improve and strengthen the FCO’s work on human rights?

Noble Lords, in covering the ground that they have covered very ably today, have often gone into the details of human rights abuses themselves, notably the noble Lord, Lord Alton, in his masterly overview in his opening remarks, as well as the noble Lords, Lord Avebury, Lord Sacks, Lord Trimble, and many others. Like the noble Lords, Lord Alton and Lord Luce, I found the papers from the Conservative commission very interesting and agreed with much that it recommended. But in looking at how its proposals fit in with the Government’s plans for the coming year, I was concerned about the practical steps that the Government might be able to take to bring them into effect. Debates and speeches, however well intentioned, have to be matched by policy in action. When we have the high principles that we espouse, we have to know how the Government intend to take that forward.

I shall concentrate in my remaining time on the mechanisms which we have that the Government might deploy in relation to human rights. Like the noble Baronesses, Lady Miller of Chilthorne Domer and Lady Morris of Bolton, I applaud much of the work done on human rights for women. The commission’s work on women’s human rights is in many ways admirable. Indeed, the annual report from the FCO on human rights sets out a comprehensive view on what has been done and what remains to be done. Can the Minister confirm that there are no plans to stop the work in producing this annual report each year, as it is such a very important and valuable guide to what is happening around the world?

Unfortunately, the only places where I could find any indication in the Government’s business plan on what was going to happen with human rights was in relation specifically to the Commonwealth and the Eminent Persons Group, in the section on so-called soft power. Indeed, I think that it was the fifth point of the fifth item of the fifth priority. That point made the assertion that the work has actually started. Can the Minister tell us what has been achieved so far?

As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, suggested, I turn to the Conservative Party’s Human Rights Commission report’s recommendations on how the Foreign Office should take matters forward. As the noble Lord said, an important recommendation is that of the appointment of a Minister for human rights within the FCO, who would be a sort of director with an overseeing role along with a group of human rights ambassadors. Surely such a Minister should also have a role in DfID and the MoD and, indeed, in UK Trade & Investment. As the noble Lord pointed out, trade can often make an uneasy bedfellow when considering human rights issues. Do the Government plan to create such a post? If so, when is that likely to happen?

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield raised an enormously important point about the responsibility to protect. I think that we can all agree that, when human rights abuses culminate in violence, peacemaking should be done, wherever possible, through dialogue, through peace treaties and through peace negotiations, as the report suggests. However, that point is axiomatic—in a sense, it is a very easy point to make—but what happens when we find that we are unable to act through the United Nations? What is a Government’s responsibility to protect in those circumstances, when such endeavours are blocked—as, for example, over Kosovo—by a clear and potentially catastrophic failure to reach agreement in the UN? Frankly, the Conservative commission sidesteps what we all know is the crucial question—which the coalition Government may have to answer—which is whether we should intervene to halt or avert human rights abuses when there is no agreement at the United Nations.

As the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, mentioned, the report also makes recommendations on how the FCO should deal with the UN Human Rights Council meetings next year. That is an important issue, so I was glad that the noble Lord concentrated on it. Frankly, I agree with a great deal of the report’s recommendations on that, including on the universal periodic review, membership elections, bloc party politics, agenda setting and the way in which some allegations against Israel are dealt with. However, I find it hard to believe that any Government will be able to act on the recommendations in the near future.

Indeed, where I think that the report falls down is in its possibly laudable but quite unrealistic notion about taking politics out of the UN. Culturally, we are years away from doing that, even if it were desirable for human rights priorities. As yet, we are not at that ideal position. It is almost as if the Conservative commission’s members spoke only to academics and experts like themselves. I do not know whether the commission members have been to the West Bank or Gaza, as the noble Lady, Baroness Morris, has. I do not know whether the commission members have witnessed the visceral fury of the Palestinians at what they perceive—and which many agree—to be the systematic undermining of their human rights. I do not know whether the commission members have had direct contact with North Korea or engaged in discussions with Chinese officials about the pressure that could be exerted on that country. It is simply unrealistic to expect to be able to take politics out of human rights discussions at this stage in international relations.

Over the years, I have travelled and talked about human rights in many different parts of the world. I have talked in the US about capital punishment and the evidence of its use in that country on people of very restricted intellectual ability, including the pathetic case of a man who was saving the ice cream from his last meal until after he came back from the execution chamber. I have discussed prison conditions in Japan and women’s rights in the Arab world. However, all Governments—elected or unelected—react strongly and with great hostility to public criticism, whereas they can often be persuaded to shift their position through private persuasion. Progress is achieved not by the protocols and the mandatory measures that the commission advocates but by persuasive discussion in private and with honesty that returns to the same issue over and over again. The noble Lord, Lord Luce, was entirely right that we must be practical and choose the right route for each country.

My Lords, I will end on that note.

13:44

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)]

My Lords, first, not only should we congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Alton, on initiating this fascinating and enormously wide-ranging debate but we can see that the House owes him a lot for his persistent work and the marvellous and tireless way in which he brings to the attention of your Lordships, and to the public, the worldwide problems of the human rights abuses that confront us today. Indeed, I notice that my brief refers to no fewer than 38 countries where there is immediate concern that human rights abuse is prevalent. Of course, if I tried to cover all of those, I would take far longer than the time available.

Secondly, I want to congratulate most warmly the noble Baroness, Lady Hollins, on her very instructive and interesting maiden speech on children’s rights and on their harrowing experiences in Romania, which we have read about but she has seen at first hand. Given her expertise in the field of children’s disabilities and the challenges that they face—which we must help them to overcome—we obviously hope to hear much more from her on those issues.

Thirdly, with the kind understanding of the Opposition, I undertook to say a word about a particular tragedy of human rights relating to a life denied—there could be no clearer abuse of human rights than that—on which my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has made a Statement in the other place this morning. It concerned the investigation into the death of the British aid worker Linda Norgrove, who died during a US-led rescue operation on the night of 8 October. In fact, Her Majesty’s coroner for Wiltshire and Swindon is legally responsible for determining the cause of death, so any comment by my right honourable friend—or, indeed, by me—today must not in any way prejudice the course of those inquiries. However, let me just briefly share with your Lordships what has emerged.

On 8 October, a rescue attempt was launched by US forces after intensive efforts to locate Linda Norgrove. The soldiers came under attack as soon as they left their helicopter. A grenade was thrown by a member of the rescue team who feared for his own life and for those of his team. When the grenade was thrown, no member of the team had seen or heard Linda Norgrove; she was found by the soldiers later. The provisional post-mortem results conclude that Linda Norgrove died as a result of penetrating fragmentation injuries to the head and chest. After the investigation, it is clear that those injuries were caused by the grenade. The rescue attempt was an incredibly difficult operation that was carried out with the utmost courage by US elite forces, to whom we are very grateful. Either way, Linda Norgrove’s death was a terrible tragedy. Her parents have paid tribute to her inspiring devotion to the people of Afghanistan and to her love for the country, and have set up a foundation in their daughter’s name to fund projects that support education and health for Afghan women and children.

I am sure that noble Lords will want to join me not only in paying tribute to all those working to support the people of Afghanistan in extremely difficult circumstances but in sending deep condolences to Linda Norgrove’s family as they come to terms with their irreparable loss. Her death is an example of the high price paid by brave people, particularly those who seek to uphold human rights and bring freedom around the world.

Turning to the debate, which has been of an excellent quality and very educative due to the experienced speeches that have been made, I acknowledge that the theme of the debate has been built around the Conservative Human Rights Commission report, which has recommended a number of measures to strengthen the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s institutional capability to address human rights. As that has been the central theme, that is what I will speak on mostly, although I will also seek to address a number of other issues raised by noble Lords.

In response, I want to reaffirm the Government’s view that human rights are essential to, and indivisible from, the UK’s foreign policy priorities, just as the Foreign Secretary said very clearly in his speech of 15 September, to which several noble Lords have referred. I can report that a number of the Conservative Party Human Rights Commission’s institutional recommendations have indeed been taken up, which is what the noble Lord, Lord Alton, rightly asked about. In particular, I refer to the Foreign Secretary’s decision that there should be an annual Foreign and Commonwealth Office Command Paper on human rights along with strengthened lines of reporting. That is the first issue that I was asked about. We have changed the annual report a bit, as it will now be published as a Command Paper—possibly, it will be a rather bigger and glossier document—and will come forward in that form. Also, and even more significantly, we have established the Foreign Secretary’s advisory group, which is holding its very first meeting this afternoon; indeed, it may be taking place while we talk.

Those are two areas in which we have taken up what the commission rightly suggested. There is in general an excellent story to tell about the way in which we have adopted the organisational approaches put forward in the commission’s proposals. We have not translated its proposals in every degree, but we have followed the pattern; for example, freedom of religion will be discussed by the Foreign Secretary’s advisory group rather than by the lower-level freedom of religion panel that existed under the previous Government. Reporting of religious freedom violations, to which several noble Lords alluded, will be covered appropriately in the new arrangements for human rights reporting. The Foreign Secretary and Foreign and Commonwealth Ministers, including me, champion human rights, which are mainstreamed throughout the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s work. An approach which integrates human rights across FCO priorities both in London and overseas is an effective way of focusing attention on the human rights aspects. That is an important point to make because there have been a number of suggestions that a Minister should somehow take charge of the whole issue. My experience in government—which has been patchy, and others may have more—is that if you assign a particular issue to a particular Minister, it does not necessarily enhance the issue. On the contrary, it can mean that it is put aside from all the concerns of other Ministers and departments and gets buried. We are dealing with human rights, which come into almost every aspect of government. They should be the concern of every Minister, not just of those in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. That is why we are not so keen on one of the commission’s ideas for ministerial commitment in the way that is described by some noble Lords. The same goes for ambassadors and special envoys. They are some people who do good work, but their efforts can get lost if we do not ensure that the human rights commitment is embedded in the work of all of government and all Ministers at all times.

I turn to the many fascinating issues that have been raised by noble Lords today. I shall not be able to cover everything. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, in a tremendous and magisterial speech which I cannot possibly emulate, raised his unease as to whether we were putting commercial trade before human rights concerns in Sudan. No, we are not; there is no question of that. Human rights issues have been raised again and again by Ministers, including my honourable friend Mr Bellingham when he was in Sudan the other day, and we will continue to press these matters extremely hard.

The noble Lord, Lord Anderson, talked interestingly of persecution of converts and apostasy. He raised the case of Musa Sayed, who is accused of Christian conversion. We are aware of this and are monitoring developments. We continue to remind the Afghan Government of their duty to abide by their national and international commitments on freedom of religion and beliefs. The noble Lord was quite right to raise that case; it is very much in our minds.

The noble Lord, Lord Avebury, spoke about a range of issues—in particular, the persecution of the Baha’is, which has concerned me personally for many years. One has always been appalled at reports of endless persecution and worse of the Baha’i community. We have repeatedly expressed our concern at the shocking sentences of the seven Baha’i leaders in Iran to 20 years’ imprisonment. The Foreign Secretary said on 11 August that we find these sentences entirely unacceptable and that we see them as a despicable attack on the Baha’i faith by the Iranian state.

The noble Lord spoke also about the Ahmadiyya community in Pakistan. I am advised that my honourable friend Alistair Burt has spoken regularly on this subject to the Pakistan Minister for Minorities. He has also met the leadership of the Ahmadiyya community in the UK and outlined the UK’s concerns at ongoing discrimination in a debate in which he took part on 20 October.

The Dalits were raised by the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Harries—the former Bishop of Oxford—and others. We are obviously concerned by reports of discrimination against Dalits and other minority communities in India. We discuss these issues with the state-level authorities, drawing their attention to British parliamentary and public concern. Those discussions will continue. In addition, minority rights, including those of Dalits, are among the issues raised via the EU-India human rights dialogue. There are many more things that we also do on this front, but I do not have time to enumerate them now. I think that I have demonstrated that we have this matter very much in our sights.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield turned to the sickening and horrific accounts of rape and torture in the Congo, as did my noble friend Lady Morris. One can only say that we continue trying to bring these things to a halt and to draw them to the attention of the world, so that these horrors somehow be contained. It is an unrewarding task, but we should never rest on it for one moment.

My noble friend Lady Miller talked about women’s rights. We support and fund projects run by Peace Brigades International. This is a central issue in our human rights work, as again my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has made clear.

My noble friend Lord Trimble spoke about the undoubted weaknesses that we have seen in the work of the United Nations Human Rights Council. I am advised that there has been some improvement recently, but we shall want to keep pressing on this matter because it is clear that there were considerable weaknesses in the past and a failure to tackle the most glaring examples of human rights abuse.

The noble Lord, Lord Browne, spoke with the great authority that he has gained from his experience. He mentioned Sri Lanka. We have raised, and continue to raise, our concerns with the Sri Lankans about the situation there. I do not want to elaborate on it now, but it is very unsatisfactory. I myself have had talks with the Sri Lankan Foreign Minister recently and have not minced my words.

The noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, mentioned cluster munitions. I joined with the previous Government—I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, was also involved—in getting rid of cluster munitions; we have done our work. This is an example of how the WikiLeaks are both going back into the past and, on the whole, covering a lot of irresponsible trivia. The whole exercise should be condemned, not only for the danger that it causes but also for the triviality which it injects into public debate.

The noble Lord, Lord Luce, kindly warned me that he would raise again the difficult question of the Chagos Islands. We continue to engage with the issues seriously. I cannot, at this stage, in the time available, go into all the aspects but it is very much in our minds. Our policy continues as before but our attitude to it and our determination to find ways forward is reinforced.

My noble friend Lady Morris and the noble Lord, Lord Wright, raised the very unsatisfactory situation in Gaza, where pressures must obviously be lifted to enable the abuse of human rights that goes on there to be eased. We are pressing the Government of Israel on that point all the time. I do not think that that benefits the Government of Israel. We want to see Israel and its existence secured as a nation, but that is not to be done by the path of the restrictions on Gaza that we have seen recently.

The shadow of North Korea came into our debates. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, has reminded us again and again of the atrocities and abuses there, and has sought a commission. On the whole, we believe that the first task is to get the six-party talks going. Some interesting comments have come out of Beijing recently on its attitude to both the six-party talks and the whole future of the Korean peninsula. It may be that there just a chink of light is coming in an area which is otherwise very dark and worrying.

My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has committed the Government to improving and strengthening the UK's human rights work, and has made clear that human rights will be woven deeply into our foreign policy decision-making at every stage. The noble Lord, Lord Luce, mentioned the Commonwealth. We see it as a valuable network to help to carry forward our human rights policy. The noble Baroness, Lady Symons, asked about the current programme of Commonwealth reform. The current programme is led by the Eminent Persons Group. Our hope is that it will reinforce the potential of the Commonwealth in upholding core values. That is my personal hope, and I have great confidence that progress will be made.

The Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have described a policy of practical promotion of human rights, where we work with the world as it is, not as we wish it to be, as being the right way forward. They argue for adapting our approach for each context while pursuing our goals with determination.

There is no one model for promoting human rights in our foreign policy. Each context will demand a different approach. Promotion of human rights implies making robust commitments to the realisation of economic as well as social and political rights— including the rights of women, which are vital and central—and those of minorities and disabled people. It means commitment to enhancing the role of opposition political parties—always difficult for some countries to understand. It means commitment to devolving power to local and regional government, promoting substantive gender equity, addressing the rising tide of religious intolerance, championing efforts to democratise international institutions, and providing effective avenues to enhance the participation of youth. Those are the requirements.

I repeat that, in addressing those requirements, the Government will be guided by four themes. The first is dealing patiently and clearly with the problems that have arisen and that have affected the UK's moral standing. The second is being candid—without hectoring—with countries that do not fully share our values or are violating their human rights obligations. The third is powerfully advocating British values, such as democracy, tolerance, and the upholding of human rights and the national responsibilities which go with them. The fourth is strengthening the rules-based international system.

I end by again thanking the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for enabling us to express those sentiments and to have this debate. It has been a good debate and, I hope, has carried forward the ideas and values to which we all adhere.

14:04

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

My Lords, anyone who doubts the purpose or point of your Lordships' House would be well recommended to read the Hansard of today's debate. There have been many thoughtful, powerful and insightful speeches made by noble Lords from all sides of the House. I thank everyone who has contributed, but particularly my noble friend Lady Hollins for her maiden speech today, which reminded us of the importance of not overlooking the human rights of people who are less advantaged than us—people with learning disabilities. I thank the Minister—the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford—for the comprehensive way in which he dealt with what was inevitably a panoramic and wide-ranging debate.

I close the debate with just two quotations. The Foreign Secretary, William Hague, stated:

“While human rights are not the only consideration in forming a nation's foreign policy, if we allow human rights to suffer while we pursue our legitimate national interest, we will in the long term have failed”.

He wrote those words in the foreword to the annual report of the Conservative Party's Human Rights Commission in 2007. It is a high bar—a good bar against which to be judged. In conclusion, I give the last word to Aung San Suu Kyi, who said, “Please use your liberty to promote ours”. That is precisely what we have done in your Lordships' House today. I beg leave to withdraw the motion.

Motion withdrawn.

Philanthropy

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Lords Chamber

Debate

14:06

Moved by

[Lord Janvrin]

To call attention to the case for encouraging philanthropy; and to move for papers.

[Lord Janvrin]

My Lords, I am most grateful for the opportunity to introduce this debate today on the case for encouraging philanthropy. At the outset, I declare an interest as a trustee of the National Portrait Gallery and of the Gurkha Welfare Trust, the chair of the trustees of the Foundation of Prince William and Prince Harry and of the Entente Cordiale Scholarship Scheme, a member of the development committee of St George's Chapel, Windsor, adviser to the Parthenon Trust and deputy chairman of HSBC Private Bank (UK).

I want to use my speech to explain why I think that the need to encourage philanthropy is both relevant and timely and then set out some ideas of what could be done to achieve more giving in our society. I should preface what follows with two acknowledgements. First, I pay tribute to those many individuals, organisations and foundations who give generously and regularly to charitable causes at home and abroad. My contention is certainly not that we are a mean lot, but rather that we as a society—particularly the more wealthy among us—could give more, and now is the time to work out how best to encourage that. Secondly, I acknowledge those who lead thinking in this field—for example, New Philanthropy Capital, the Institute of Philanthropy, the Charities Aid Foundation, Philanthropy UK, and many others—who provide the research and intellectual underpinning on which I have drawn liberally and which is vital if we are to change attitudes.

Why do I think this debate important and timely? The starting point is obvious. It goes without saying that there is a real need both in our society and globally. We cannot be indifferent to the needs of others, and we—government, business, charities, media, and individuals—must all be looking for new ways to address that challenge.

Secondly, and more topically, the current public spending cuts will inevitably affect the charitable sector. Some 13 per cent of charities in the United Kingdom receive over half their income from the Government, and many more will be affected by reductions in public expenditure. In the excellent debate on the charity sector in this House on 5 October there were many references to the serious implications of this.

Thirdly, donors large and small have also inevitably been affected by the economic downturn. Figures from the National Council for Voluntary Organisations and the Charities Aid Foundation suggest that the total amount donated by individuals fell 11 per cent between 2007-08 and 2008-09. Certainly, the anecdotal evidence—shared, I have no doubt, by others here—is that it is a tough environment for fundraisers at the moment.

All, however, is not doom and gloom. Those in the fundraising business should take some comfort from the fact that there is still considerable wealth around. Much of the wealth is self-made. Over 15 years ago, 75 per cent of the Sunday Times rich list was inherited wealth and 25 per cent self-made, but today those figures are reversed. Many, in financial terms, have done well in recent years. The nature of philanthropy has also been changing in recent years. New philanthropists are more likely to be closely engaged in ensuring the effectiveness of their giving, more likely to be co-operating together and more interested in looking at innovative ways of charity financing. Despite, or perhaps because of, present economic circumstances, there is much creative thinking going on. Indeed, I understand that an independent group of leading figures from the world of philanthropy, business and charities is at present discussing how best to give a lead on some of the issues that I hope this debate will cover.

Fourthly, and perhaps most importantly, the present coalition has expressed an interest in encouraging philanthropy. Since I originally tabled this Motion, we have had an undertaking that the Government, bringing together the Cabinet Office, DCMS and, crucially, the Treasury, intend to publish a Green Paper on giving by the end of the year and a White Paper by the end of March next year. I very much welcome that commitment and I hope that this debate will contribute to their thinking.

I have a few suggestions on what I hope is now being considered. First, the Government should set their sights firmly on the fundamental challenge of changing public attitudes to giving. How can they do that? Above all, the Government need to find ways of getting across the idea that philanthropy is fundamentally something to be encouraged, recognised and supported, and is not inevitably some form of personal aggrandisement or, at worst, a potential tax scam for the rich. They need to explain that private philanthropy can complement government priorities, not replace them, particularly by investing in those innovative, risk-taking and high-impact charities that are so often at the forefront of social change. That general message can be reinforced by looking at new ways in which donors can be recognised—for example, through schemes like the Beacon Fellowships and indeed through the honours system, which is obviously a very sensitive area, although philanthropists have rightly been recognised in that way in the past. The message would also be strongly underlined if there were moves to revise regulations, such as the substantial donor legislation, which sometimes seem designed to make the relationship between recipient and donor awkward, if not discouraging.

Secondly, a major signal of commitment and support of philanthropy and the charity sector generally would be given if gift aid could be simplified and made more efficient. That can be presented, rightly, not as an additional tax break but as streamlining the existing tax regime. In particular, I hope that the Government will consider allowing charity aid providers to reclaim higher-rate gift aid allowance on behalf of donors. Apart from anything else, that may encourage more people to set up charity accounts, so making their giving a more regular and structured part of their financial arrangements.

Thirdly, I hope that there will be at least some consideration of further so-called “lifetime giving opportunities”. There are three areas most often advocated. There is the extension of “acceptance in lieu” rules on works of art gifted to recognised museums during a person’s lifetime as well as on death, as proposed in the Goodison report. There is the extension of existing tax breaks on gifts of listed shares to unlisted shares. The argument that it is not worth extending the scheme because few people make use of it probably has more to do with lack of knowledge of the scheme rather than anything else. Then there is the whole area of lifetime legacies—for example, in the form of charitable remainder trusts, which play an important part in the philanthropy scene in the United States. While I accept that this is a very difficult moment for the Government to be introducing tax incentives, I hope that the Green Paper can have something positive to say about these ideas, not least as a most powerful expression of support for philanthropy and the charitable sector.

Fourthly, I hope that the Green Paper will address ways of supporting new forms of charity financing—for example, through social investment models like the East London Bond, the social impact bond, online giving vehicles and matched funding. It seems to me important that the Government look for ways of incentivising these new ways of funding where they have the potential to be effective.

If the Government can do much to encourage philanthropy, so too can other interested parties. I shall mention three in particular: the corporate world, charities themselves and the media. The business world can and should do more to encourage philanthropy. In the past 20 years or so, it has recognised that corporate social responsibility is in fact good business. Within this evolution, straightforward philanthropy has obviously played a part, as has volunteering—giving time rather than money—but much more can be done. There is little doubt that more corporate encouragement for payroll giving would be an effective way to encourage greater employee giving, as would the increased use of matched funding for employees’ own fundraising activities. Both schemes would have the potential to introduce younger people to giving and philanthropy.

Charities themselves need to take a hard look at their own activities to assess the effectiveness of their fundraising, however hard their development and fundraising teams are working. There are many lessons to be learnt about the need to look after donors, to have a greater understanding of what motivates them, to work out how best to recognise them if they so wish and generally to make donors more central to the activities of the charity itself.

It is difficult to exclude the media from this list of those organisations that might have a material bearing on how much is given in our society. Many media organisations now very effectively promote their own charity campaigns; for example, at the moment through Christmas appeals. However, considering the number of people who are actively involved in the charity sector and the philanthropy world, their coverage of these areas is sometimes pretty limited. Local media in particular have an important role to play in encouraging community philanthropy and recognising local giving at that level.

In conclusion, the case for encouraging philanthropy is clear. It is important, it is timely and there are things that can be done. We would be building on the policies of the previous Administration and embracing the thinking of the present coalition Government. Indeed, this is an issue on which the House of Lords is well placed to take a lead, not least because I would guess that so many in this House are engaged in this sector and in raising funds. Now, I believe, is the time for government, business, charities and the media to make a concerted effort to change attitudes to philanthropy at every level so that it is seen as part of life, particularly for those fortunate enough to have done well in recent years, to give something back. Our objective should be as simple as it is ambitious: to make a step change in the culture of giving in this country.

14:21

[Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville]

My Lords, I first declare the same interest as I did in the charities sector debate on 5 October. I have set up two trusts, one for lay causes and one for ecclesiastical causes, under the Charities Aid Foundation’s admirable and efficient umbrella. It is a happy element of our conventions in your Lordships’ House that on occasions such as this we thank and congratulate the initiator of the debate on securing it for us, and on his or her opening exposition of the issues. I do that unreservedly in the case of the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, whose introduction was exemplary. In the words of Milton’s “Lycidas”, he and I—though not simultaneously—were,

“nursed upon the selfsame hill”,

at a school in Wiltshire, founded in 1843 for the sons of clergy. It is a felicitous coincidence to follow him on this subject.

I also congratulate the House of Lords Library on the comprehensive briefing it produced on the very large subject for this debate. It is a rich quarry for the future, as well as for today. The depth and quality of the Library note’s bibliography is an index of the increasing global attention being given to this subject, although it is a marginal coincidental disadvantage that the CAF and NCVO’s annual research report, UK Giving 2010, will be published tomorrow, rather than yesterday. We are rolling the pitch for tomorrow’s news.

Six-minute speeches on such a subject tend inevitably towards a scattergun technique, but the variety of components that this debate will generate will also constitute a rich quarry for your Lordships’ House’s continuing dialogue on these matters. The Library note was particularly helpful in demonstrating how multifaceted is the projected agenda, with genuine arguments on either side of particular developments. Thus, I shall identify sub-agendas still ahead of us as well as asking some questions.

I am familiar with the growing need for increased capital, as well as revenue, to enable charities and causes to pursue particular projects imaginatively. I recognise the importance of lifetime legacies as a topic. That seems a particularly good subject for a Question for Short Debate in your Lordships’ House, unless it falls outside our rules. Another such is the present state of payroll giving within the corporate framework, as the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, mentioned, the origins of which now go back some 25 years. The present national revenue outturn of £9 million a month might seem modest, but since the number of payroll givers is approximately the same as the overall shortfall in donor numbers in the UK between two recent years since the recession began, the fact that payroll givers are individually contributing £12 a month is a good base on which to build this philanthropic conduit, especially as its nature implies sustainability.

At the level of SMEs, when I was in a privately owned firm, we set aside a proportion of profits for charity, with the whole membership of the firm—one man and one woman, with one vote each—voting on what we should spend the outcome on. I like the look of the Government’s intentions towards increased giving set out in the DCMS business plan, which was published in November in advance of the Green Paper from the Government as a whole. Although the DCMS business plan I allude to understandably did not major on online gift aid, which is primarily a Treasury issue, I detect that on this matter, which is so important to increasing the gift aid yield, movement may be occurring in Whitehall.

I can foresee for intellectually respectable reasons that we shall be revisiting the arguments about additionality, which fuelled the lottery debates in the early 1990s, in the context of the relationship between increased charitable giving and the spending cuts, and, indeed, in the context of the big society itself. It seems particularly important that we should secure the same common ground that changed the position on the National Lottery etc. Bill 17 years ago between Second and Third Reading, so that at least the Front Bench of the official Opposition voted in favour of the Bill at Third Reading.

On the Government’s new agenda on personal and national well-being, the CAF’s World Giving Index has demonstrated a clear correlation between the giving of time and money and overall well-being. It would be no bad thing if this effect of philanthropy being a contributor to personal well-being became a focus in the new campaign, with its relevance to social capital. I hope the Government and the Office for National Statistics will accede to the CAF’s suggestion that charitable giving becomes one of the indicators for well-being in the planned index.

Finally, beyond or within the debate on additionality, I hope we can also pay attention to whether philanthropists working with the third sector can provide more flexible and responsive targeted public services. I give an example from rural housing. There is a putative scheme in the south-west where a social entrepreneur has seized on the problem by securing house-by-house projects in pockets of land at odd corners of like-minded landowners’ land, to be developed in line with increased local employment opportunities. It is a case of “many a mickle makes a muckle”, but in a genuinely sustainable direction. However, it is also clear that it does not readily fit into the public housing arrangements of the previous Government’s most recent Housing Act. I am not making a partisan point but I seek to get houses built in a part of our economy that is badly in need of them. While on the rural economy, has the Prince’s Countryside Fund now become a cause to which we can contribute across a post office counter?

14:28

[Baroness Pitkeathley]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, for securing this debate and giving us the opportunity to focus on this important topic. I declare two interests: I chair the advisory body for the Office for Civil Society, which funds Philanthropy UK, the leading resource for free and impartial advice to aspiring philanthropists; and I am married to the chief executive of the Association of Charitable Foundations, which manages the project.

Is there anybody who is not in favour of encouraging philanthropy? You can hardly be against it, even though, in the United Kingdom, it can have negative connotations of the very rich patronising the poor for their own ends—a hangover from Victorian times, perhaps—or, nowadays, of very rich people taking advantage of tax loopholes or just offsetting their guilt about being rich. Even with those negative associations, it is generally thought to be a good thing for the individual or foundation doing the giving, for the recipient and for society at large. However, it has its complications. Your Lordships may be familiar with the quotation from Edith Wharton, the American novelist:

“There is nothing like the exasperation of the would-be philanthropist when he first discovers that nothing complicates life as much as doing good”.

Many philanthropists have echoed the words of the founder of Sears Roebuck when he said that making his first million dollars was a lot easier than giving it away wisely.

Of course we should encourage more philanthropy, but I will sound some notes of caution. First, we should not be tempted to go too far towards the American model, in which giving is seen much more as the ordinary expectation when an individual makes money, and in which being acknowledged publicly is much more acceptable. We have a different tradition and culture in this country, and the difference is crucial in how we handle philanthropy.

Secondly, there is no possible way that, however well intentioned and well managed, philanthropic giving can replace or match government funding that is being withdrawn—the numbers simply do not stack up. For example, last year government spending on education, welfare and health was more than £300 billion, while all philanthropic giving—donations, legacies, corporate spending and trusts and foundations—only came to £16 billion. Philanthropists are funders at the margins and do not have the capacity to support even the whole of the charitable sector, let alone replace government funding on a wider scale.

The Government’s focus on encouraging philanthropy is much welcomed by foundations and by individuals, but there is suspicion about it being politically motivated. Philanthropists want to make their own decisions and lead from the front, and the benefits of family foundations cannot be turned on and off like a tap. Of course, they want to work in partnership with government—they can see the benefits of that—but their motivation is to give, not to substitute for government funding. They give precisely because of their independence of action and their scope to drive their own visions. It is extremely important to remember that when engaging with philanthropists.

I am not suggesting that the Government’s attitude to philanthropy should be totally hands off. On the contrary, they should make it clear that the promotion of philanthropy is a critical component of their infrastructure plans, and should support the development of a structure to co-ordinate the growth of philanthropy in the United Kingdom and ensure that it is focused on donors. Too often, for example, fundraising is seen to focus on recipients and on the funding of special projects. To encourage philanthropy, we must view it through the eye of the prospective donor, as the noble Lord who introduced the debate reminded us, and must understand what information and support they need in order to decide to give, and to do so confidently and effectively. There is currently a daunting array of choices facing a potential giver, with much duplication and potential waste and a worrying lack of oversight or accepted good practice. Donors and their advisers would benefit from a common code of practice that ensured the best interests of both donor and beneficiary.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, about the Government taking a lead in encouraging people to develop the habit of philanthropy. While we may say that this is not a good time to do it, when times are so hard, let us not forget that the poor have always given proportionately more of their income to charity than the rich. Tax relief is also important. Let us remember the differences between the United States and the United Kingdom in this regard, too. While gift aid is welcome, I agree that the cumbersome process of claiming back has a negative impact on givers and receivers. Transferring a higher percentage of the benefits of major gifts back to donors is strongly to be recommended. I look forward to the Minister’s response to those ideas.

There is evidence of untapped philanthropic potential in the United Kingdom, but it will not be fulfilled, either in money invested or in results achieved, unless there is great assistance to philanthropists to direct their wealth in a way that satisfies both them and the big society. We need more philanthropists, great and small; more widespread philanthropy; and more thoughtful and effective philanthropy. There is a case for establishing a single body with the overarching purpose of increasing philanthropy in the United Kingdom that would inspire and guide new philanthropists, and help donors make effective choices. Again, I hope to hear the Minister's response to that.

We should remember the benefits of giving. Citizen engagement benefits civil society. Giving connects people to society, and by encouraging all scales of giving and philanthropy, we develop society. While spontaneous philanthropy of the sort that we have seen lately in big gifts to the British Museum and the National Theatre is much to be welcomed, the true potential of philanthropy will not be realised if it is simply left to happen.

14:35

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, for securing this debate. I also thank the Library staff who produced an excellent note. I declare an interest: I am a long-in-the-tooth solicitor whose firm, Bates Wells and Braithwaite, acts for most of the charities already mentioned in the debate. Therefore, I have an intimate involvement and connection with charity.

Of course, the philanthropy is not just charity. The definition in the Oxford English dictionary is:

“Concern for the welfare of mankind, especially as shown by acts of benevolence”.

Benevolent is defined as:

“Wishing to do good; actively friendly and helpful”.

I will concentrate on the non-financial philanthropy that can easily be overlooked in a debate such as this. Money is an easily measured commodity, the giving of time and compassion is not. I will also say that philanthropy is the heart and soul of this country. It represents the very best of our culture, our history and our traditions. One of the finest reflections of that is that the Statute of Elizabeth 1601 is the only piece of British law that survived the American declaration of independence. Its preamble is still the foundation of American charity law, as it is of our own.

I return to the giving of time, skill, wisdom and compassion. One of the unfortunate consequences of the development of our society and culture over the past 40 years is the removal of a greater proportion of what one might call the natural elite, or middle classes, from practical, active engagement with communities and society. In my profession, if you were to compare the amount of time and engagement with his or her community of a solicitor in 1950 or 1960, with that of a solicitor today, you would be shocked. Many of my professional brethren do not have the time or energy to devote any of their remarkable intelligence and experience to the public realm. That is a sadness for them and for our society, because there is no more useful person in civil society, at whatever point or level, than a solicitor, accountant or banker, who can bring to the deliberations of whatever body they are concerned with the skills and experience that they have garnered in their professional life. If nothing else, I hope that we as a society will think more about how we can do something to reverse this malign trend.

In so doing, I would like to think that we would learn to celebrate again men and women who give no money—because they have no money to give—but give of themselves in a practical, informal way that is the lifeblood of our communities. Although she will certainly not thank me for so doing, I hold up to you Mary Tatum, a lady of advanced years in my home town of Sudbury, whom I have known from boyhood. She has no money, no influence, no power and no position; yet she has devoted her 70-plus years to a philanthropic way of life that is a shining beacon to anyone in this Chamber and beyond. She will help the needy, the oppressed and the confused in any way that she can and at any time, with little regard to her own needs and financial wealth. But my goodness, she has immaterial wealth: in that, she is a billionaire.

I would also like to think that the great professions in this land, and the great business organisations, will do a great deal more than corporate social responsibility has yet delivered to fill the gap. It is astonishing that less than a handful of law faculties—fewer than five out of more than 100—set ethics as a necessary component of a law degree. It is shameful that of the 200 business schools, only two have a compulsory ethical component. If ever one wanted to inculcate, or re-inculcate, a sense of wider philanthropy among those who will be tomorrow’s leaders, surely it must start at that point.

I wanted to throw into the rich stew of today’s debate the thought that the philanthropy of time, skill, compassion and experience is not only wonderfully beneficial for those to whom it is given but inestimably beneficial to those who give it.

14:41

[Baroness Prashar]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, for securing this debate and for his masterly introduction. I also declare an interest: I am honorary president of the Community Foundation Network. This afternoon I will be speaking mainly about community philanthropy, which I was delighted to hear the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, mention, and the importance of harnessing local capacity to increase giving and its effectiveness.

Community philanthropy is planned, strategic giving, made with a specific end goal in mind. It recognises that philanthropists are most likely to be motivated to engage with recipients, and continue to extend their support for them, when they share with them a common interest, may that be geographic, ethnic, social or cultural. That is what community foundations are engaged in. Community foundations connect doers with donors at local level. They offer expertise in a specific locality, identify common interests and develop strategies and ways of bringing philanthropists closer to the work of the recipients. More importantly, they embrace not just charities but all organisations that work to benefit their local community without the motive of profit.

The foundations’ work demonstrates that strong local communities provide a framework within which many social problems can be addressed; that small amounts of money applied in the right place can have a disproportionately large effect; that connecting donors with community groups creates social capital as well as financial support; and that communities are strengthened by relationships between rich and poor, the haves and have-nots. The activities of the community foundations include raising new philanthropic funds, identifying the groups that deliver change, investing in organisations through grants and monitoring subsequent progress, and developing endowments to create permanent and independent funding.

The Government want to empower people and communities and develop a culture of responsibility, an objective which I fully support. But to give effect to this vision we need to engage the full range of resources available to us centrally and locally. We need to build on and support existing initiatives which have been successful in encouraging philanthropy. One type of infrastructure of which I have personal knowledge is the Community Foundation Network, a membership body of 50 or so accredited community foundations located across Britain. CFN has been supporting local community foundations to realise their full potential. Over the years community foundations have undertaken a range of grant programmes for government and the lottery which has enabled them to develop a unique capacity to identify and fund local groups based on local knowledge provided by an army of volunteers.

There are not many organisations that have this level of knowledge drawn from the community. While giving has, as we have heard, been declining elsewhere, the community foundations have grown. This movement is supported and led by the CFN, which has managed a range of successful private sector and government grant programmes to unlock the potential of community foundations to deliver. CFN is an enabling body. It is not just another intermediary organisation. Its work is closely aligned with the Government’s big society agenda. Community foundations are one of the most valuable tools in our armoury to help the Government realise their aspiration of the big society.

If the Government are to achieve the culture of responsibility and encourage philanthropy they should be supporting not only centralised organisations but organisations that have an extensive local reach. The community foundation movement is an existing infrastructure with a proven track record and a local, decentralised delivery capacity. It was therefore disappointing that when the list of organisations through which the Government might choose to deliver grants—that is, the grants administration framework—was announced, none had a local delivery capacity, a local reach or a track record in developing new giving. Can the Minister assure the House that the forthcoming community first programme will include organisations with local reach and that this dimension will not be overlooked? If this does not happen we are in danger of damaging rather than harnessing the infrastructure that has proved itself capable of developing innovative community philanthropy. It also runs contrary to the Prime Minister’s desire to unleash community engagement. I look forward to the Minister’s response.

14:47

[The Earl of Listowel]

My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend Lord Janvrin for calling this timely debate. Over lunch my noble friend Lord Northbourne reminded me of Coram Family and the establishment for children in Holborn, which was endowed by Hogarth and Handel in the 18th century. Because of that endowment it has become a centre of excellence, and the model on which the previous Government based their children’s centres. Those centres are highly successful institutions that serve the most vulnerable families in society. They are immortalised not only in their art but in their philanthropy in standing up to the experience of orphans in London in the 18th century. I was also reminded of Toynbee Hall, a similar institution that enabled women and men such as Attlee to move from their privileged backgrounds, to learn what it was like for people living in the east end, and to change their political beliefs, the institutions and the direction of this nation.

Only on Tuesday evening I heard from a director of children’s services that he would have to end a training programme for his foster carers. The programme had significantly improved the literacy of his local authority’s children in care and reduced the number of foster placement breakdowns. His local authority simply could not find the funds to continue the project. Money is very short, as my noble friend said.

I am also prompted by what my noble friend said to think about corporate social responsibility, and I declare an interest as the recipient of hospitality from the National Grid. I have been very impressed by its programme for young offenders in the past several years. Beginning in Reading young offender institution, the Grid offered young people a three-month training programme and guaranteed a job at the end if they were successful. At the start those jobs were fork-lift driving and laying pipes. Since then it has successfully trained up 2,000 trainees, and its record is of reducing reoffending from 70 per cent in the general population to 7 per cent, or probably less. That is a good example of philanthropy from business. It has been led by Sir John Parker, the chairman, who has now reached out to many other companies across Britain to support this initiative, which has been developed by Dr Mary Harris of the National Grid.

I strongly support what the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley said, about the state not being able simply to offload its responsibilities on to philanthropists. Furthermore, matched funding from local and central government will be crucial to encourage giving.

I wish to highlight an excellent programme for vulnerable children, and I ask the Minister what means are currently available to make it easy for this and other services that make a difference in helping children to find philanthropic support. I am thinking particularly of the online giving vehicles to which my noble friend referred. What should the first port of call be for philanthropists looking to support specific projects for vulnerable children—not big name charities, as important as they are, but individual projects that may appeal to particular donors with particular interests?

My example is the charity Siblings Together, which sets up summer and Easter camps each year for children in local authority care and their brothers and sisters. The charity’s founder, Delma Hughes, is a registered art therapist who experienced local authority care as a child and grew up without the opportunity of knowing any of her brothers or sisters. With the help and support of Hilton Dawson, then the chief executive of a children’s charity and now chief executive of the British Association of Social Workers, she visited America to work in one of its Camps to Belong and to learn from its experience. Mr Dawson also made available his charity’s venture facilities for Ms Hughes’s first camps.

For three years now she has been organising camps, enabling brothers and sisters separated in care to be reunited on holiday and to share exciting experiences together. The staff are all volunteers drawn from social work, youth work and related childcare professions. The children speak movingly of their time together with their siblings. This year the charity ran one of its schemes at a theatre, thanks to the Young Vic, and currently has a very attractive venue in the far west of Wales, thanks to the Dandelion Trust. The largest sibling group it has brought together is a group of five.

The trustee board includes David Holmes, chief executive of the British Association for Adoption and Fostering. Each camp costs £12,000 and this summer one of the camps was funded by a trust, the other by the children’s local authorities. The Who Cares? Trust publicises the schemes free of charge in its magazines for young people in care. Delma Hughes would welcome philanthropic support for next year’s camps.

Surely there should be some vehicle to enable philanthropists to search for specific projects relating to their particular interests. Ideally, it should also connect them to other donors so that they can find donations to match their own and leverage their giving. Ideally, it would also be available to children in school to enable them to get into the giving habit.

I am running out of time. Is the Minister aware of the charity The Big Give, which seems to do all these things? I confess that I discovered this organisation only yesterday, but I have found it a useful tool. I would be grateful to hear from the Minister the Government’s assessment of The Big Give’s contribution to encouraging philanthropy.

14:53

[The Lord Bishop of Newcastle]

My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, for initiating the debate. At first sight, the title, “The case for encouraging philanthropy”, is a proposition from which few, if any, could dissent, although I realise it might just be possible to read between the lines and discern a subtext that might become a substitute for government funding and allow government to escape from some of its responsibilities to the citizen. However, even if that were anyone’s intention—I do not believe that it is—and if anyone wanted to suggest that encouraging philanthropy is a way of dismantling some parts of the welfare state, we should remember that Beveridge’s plan took for granted the existence of strong local communities, mutual relationships and support and sheer good neighbourliness. Philanthropy is an essential component of a civilised society, and the mixed economy of individualism, community living, organised philanthropy and state action is surely the key to societal well-being.

I have used the words “organised philanthropy” because I wish to speak about one example of that from my own experience. I declare an interest as one of the vice-presidents of the Community Foundation that serves Tyne and Wear and Northumberland. I shall take further one or two of the points made by the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar. The Community Foundation is one of the best examples of organised philanthropy. It began in 1988 and now manages over 250 donor funds. Last year it made 1,700 grants totalling £6 million, and it is the largest of the 57 Community Foundations in the UK. It is the hub for social philanthropy in the area and inspires, encourages and supports giving, which strengthens local communities, including some of the most depressed and disadvantaged communities anywhere in the country.

Individuals, families, businesses and companies can set up a named fund that supports the needs of the causes that match the interests of the donor. The foundation is a kind of philanthropic dating agency; it matches applications from groups and individuals with the wishes of the donor, and then does the rest. It has been successful for three reasons: it has attracted a diverse membership of individuals, voluntary groups, public bodies and businesses, all of whom are engaged in local society; the genuinely strong sense of community and identity at the heart of the north-east; and the sheer generosity of the donors, who have inherited a long tradition of supporting local people, communities and causes. On Tyneside there is a great tradition of generous giving going back generations.

In Victorian times, of course, charitable trusts were set up by the very wealthy, many of whom were paternal employers who cared for their workforce. They knew that their livelihood depended on their workforce and local community and were very aware of the human destructiveness of poverty and hardship. Today, successful business people have increasingly recognised that their success and their wealth carry with it a responsibility to give something back. That has often been done through vehicles such as the Community Foundation.

I am humbled by the sheer generosity of people to those less fortunate than themselves. Initiatives such as the Grassroots Endowment Challenge of the previous Government, together with the launch of Acorn funds, have helped immensely and have brought organised philanthropy within the reach of most people. For example, a donation of £20 a week—£1,000 a year—will build up a fund over 25 years.

Yet there are still challenges to overcome. There is a good deal of evidence of philanthropy among the wealthy, but how do we encourage it, in an organised way, among those who are less wealthy but still comfortably off? How do we shift from spontaneous giving to appeals such as Children in Need to a more organised giving because of the values that we hold about our mutual belonging and commitment to one another and for the well-being of the society of which we are a part?

Somehow we have to encourage and develop a whole new culture of giving. How do we do that? There have been a few suggestions, and I support many of the things that the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, said. We need to recognise our philanthropists more positively and in new ways; we need to start the educational process in our schools and build up the pioneering work of the Institute for Philanthropy; we need our banks to play their part by setting up charity bank accounts to make it easier to give; we need more challenge funding such as the Grassroots Endowment Challenge; and we need perhaps better tax incentives and a much simplified gift aid system. All that should encourage a culture of giving.

Philanthropy needs and deserves greater encouragement, but it is not and can never be a replacement for public sector funding. It is unlikely that donors will ever give to unfashionable projects or to unappealing and unglamorous but necessary work. I am thinking about three very small charities that are trying to do heroic work by giving care and emergency payments to destitute asylum seekers. Where do such bodies go for funding? They do not get it from government and they certainly do not get it from some donors through bodies such as the Community Foundation. Philanthropy can go only so far. It will always need the support of an active Government, and an active Government need to do all they can—along with the rest of us—not only to support the case for encouraging philanthropy but to be active in encouraging it for the well-being not only of our society but of each other.

14:59

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts]

My Lords, I am delighted to add my congratulations to the noble Lord who introduced the debate. I am particularly pleased to do so as I share his view that there is a moral duty on each of us to put something back into society, particularly those of us who are fortunate. It is important to do so whatever the economic weather; when the economic weather is stormy, as it is at present, it is doubly so.

My noble friend Lord Phillips said that giving something back could be a matter of time as well as money—of course, he is absolutely right about that—and the pressures of modern life have made that more difficult. However, I regret to say that there has also been a growth in what I call the selfish gene. The tendency to ask “What’s in it for me?” has become more prevalent in our society. We need to think about what has made people less responsive to their wider responsibilities. My noble friend referred to business schools being asked to provide courses on ethics. I am not against that but business schools could perform a more important task in undertaking serious intellectual analysis of what one might call a social return on investment. If we could find a way to analyse and measure what the social return of these various projects could be—in the way that we have accounting standards now—it would be an extremely useful way of developing alternative ways of measuring what is going in on our society at the grass roots.

The challenges have been laid out. I wish to concentrate on three brief points. How do we encourage the extremely wealthy and the moderately wealthy to contribute, and how do we encourage the 30 to 50 year-olds, who are probably rather below par in the giving arena, also to do their bit? I declare my interests, which are recorded on the Register, as president of the National Council for Voluntary Organisations and chairman of the Armed Forces Charities Advisory Committee. As regards encouraging the wealthy, we need to do more to find ways to encourage people to set up grant-giving foundations. This is critical because they provide long-term dedicated funding, which is much needed by charities and which is not really available through the gift aid programme. They do so often in areas that are edgy and not immediately populist, as the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle said. We know that charities concerned with children and animals are appealing. That is absolutely splendid; I am all for that; but we need to find ways to encourage giving to more difficult, less popular, causes, which none the less have an important role to play in our society.

There are three things that we could do to encourage people to set up foundations and to participate in this way. First, we could look at the bureaucracy of reporting. The accounting SORP—statement of recommended practice—has expanded year by year and could, and should, be cut back. We should look at the Trustee Act and laws on diversification, which are more of a concern in theory than in reality, but nevertheless lead people to believe that they may lose complete control of the way the foundation they have established operates. Referring to a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, we need to reflect on the difference between the US and the UK in balancing the right of society to have transparency about what is going on with the right of privacy for someone who is giving a great deal of money to charitable causes. I have said in the House before that the British disease is not idleness but envy. This means that some people are frightened to establish a foundation because they think that it may open them up to adverse criticism.

The second point I would like to make concerning the moderately wealthy is to support the remarks made about the importance of establishing a regime for charitable remainder trusts. The great concern of the moderately wealthy is that their circumstances may change and therefore the gift that they gave irrevocably to a charity may leave them short of funding in their old age. If we had a charitable remainder trust regime, they could give the capital to the charity, which is what it needs, and at the same time could have some form of income flowing from it for their lifetime and that of their wife or husband. That would encourage people of moderate means, particularly those whose assets are tied up in a single asset such as a house, to be more generous during their lifetime.

Thirdly, I turn to venture philanthropy, which may appeal to 30 to 50 year-olds. All the evidence I have come across shows that web-confident 30 to 50 year-olds are increasingly disinclined to contribute to a huge, anonymous pool. They want to see how their money is being used and its effect, and the more specific that is, the better. It is a real challenge to the sector to find ways to connect means with ends. I am glad to say that the NCVO is doing some creative thinking on this and I think there is quite a lot going on in the sector generally. Examples of this are emerging. My noble friend Lady Barker, who will be speaking in a minute, has pioneered—I am glad to help that in a small way—a project called See the Difference. I will not spoil her thunder as I am sure that she will wish to refer to that project but it enables people to give money through the web to a specific cause and see how a difference is being made. I am sure that this idea will be very important in the future. This is just one example but there are several others out there in the marketplace. They ought to be encouraged and we ought to try to find ways to be as creative as possible in linking people’s funding with specific outcomes which makes them feel that they have made a real difference.

This is a critical debate and the noble Lord is to be congratulated on it. I hope very much that we can follow up some of the ideas that have been put forward.

15:06

[Baroness Coussins]

My Lords, in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, on securing this debate, I should like to say a little more about the role of business in encouraging philanthropy. In modern terms as we have already heard from several noble Lords, this is part of what is now generally known as corporate social responsibility. I declare an interest as an independent adviser on CSR to various global companies listed in the Register of Interests, all of which commit significant resources to charitable activities around the world. CSR is, of course, about much more than donating to charity or bestowing patronage on the arts. Cynics might say that it is just a way of reducing corporation tax or a relatively cheap way for companies to feel virtuous. However, I would argue that it is a mainstream business driver and a very important aspect of how the success of a company should be judged in the 21st century.

There are various indices and awards that measure and publicise aspects of a company's CSR performance, such as FTSE4Good and the Dow Jones Sustainability Index. The pioneering organisation, Business in the Community, has been mobilising its member companies for nearly 30 years now to work collaboratively in disadvantaged communities. BITC publishes the CR index and in 2008 launched the community mark initiative, which is designed to set a new standard of excellence in community investment.

The word “sustainability” sums up why CSR is important to business. As I said, it is not just about charity, it is also about the way the workplace is run and the workforce is treated; it is about the impact of the business on the environment; and it is about the social impact of its products or services in the marketplace. Unless a business gets all these things right, including the charitable side, its brand image and corporate reputation could suffer. By contrast, we know that new cultural norms and expectations about corporate responsibility are influencing consumer purchasing patterns. We know that FTSE 350 companies that are active in corporate responsibility outperform their peers by between 3.3 per cent and 7.7 per cent a year, so CSR can help give business its competitive edge.

The element of charitable giving or community support should be one of the building blocks of any company's CSR programme. Although its effect and impact may be philanthropic in the traditional sense, it is enlightened self-interest rather than pure altruism which motivates it—and it is none the less welcome or worthy for that. The opportunity for the entire workforce to have a say in which charity should be a company's charity of the year is a good example of how the workforce, as individuals, can feel engaged with the company as a whole. The benefits to the business include positive attitudes towards the employer, team-building and co-operation and, of course, good external publicity. Some companies agree to match-fund what their employees raise and also allow work time, venues and facilities to be used for charitable fundraising activity.

Another example of what might be termed philanthropic business action is volunteering. This features increasingly in companies’ CSR strategies. This might involve carrying out repairs and decorations at a local school, clearing rubbish from rivers and ditches, or giving children one-to-one reading practice. Some companies have enabled employees to participate in mentoring schemes for older children or for ex-offenders. These activities provide a win-win situation for everyone concerned, with the company benefiting from the reputational capital built up in the local community, which, after all, is also its recruitment ground. Then there are the initiatives which involve in-kind support, whereby a company might donate its product or services, facilities or venues for the benefit of a local or national charity. This might include offering work placement or work experience to students or ex-offenders. It could also work the other way around, with professional accountants, lawyers or marketers spending time with a charitable body showing it how to professionalise or scale-up its operations.

Some strands of CSR have a very obvious business case. Measures to reduce energy consumption, waste and packaging, for example, are good for climate change, but they also, self-evidently, reduce costs—just what every shareholder, board member or chief executive wants to hear. Beyond that, there are still too many businesses which think that the rest of CSR is a bit of a luxury or an optional extra—unaffordable in an economic downturn. They need to be encouraged to understand the business case, but they also need the regulatory and administrative obstacles that can sometimes block a good initiative to be removed. This is where the Government should step in to facilitate the progress of enlightened self-interest.

The barriers, from a business perspective, include the time taken and the cost of obtaining repeated CRB checks. The regime for protecting children is absolutely necessary, but is overly cumbersome, time-consuming and costly. I ask the Minister to look at how this could be streamlined, as well as at other aspects of the red tape which often inhibit businesses from embarking on volunteering programmes.

Another example is the difficulty that can be encountered in obtaining professional insurance cover for employees who donate their time and services. The Government could and should do more to provide incentives to businesses to engage with ex-offenders and other socially excluded groups. I ask the Minister to look again at all these issues and to ensure that the role of corporate giving within the broader context of CSR is fully acknowledged in the forthcoming White Paper.

15:12

[Baroness Bonham-Carter of Yarnbury]

My Lords, I join others in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, for the opportunity to debate this important topic. I will concentrate on philanthropy from the perspective of the arts, culture and heritage and so this debate is also very timely because, next week, the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport will be launching the department’s philanthropy strategy.

The coalition is strongly committed to the arts and heritage, and my right honourable friend the Secretary of State fought long and hard to achieve what he could against the background of a very tough spending review. This includes National Lottery funding being restored to its original good causes. However, this debate is about philanthropy, and we on these Benches believe—as did the previous Government, the former Minister for Culture, Margaret Hodge, being a particular champion—that philanthropy plays an extremely important role in providing funding and support for the arts and that the role philanthropy plays can and should become even more important.

There is much to celebrate about the state of philanthropy in the UK today and we applaud the generosity of the British people who support countless good causes. Only a couple of weeks ago, more than £18 million was raised for Children in Need. So far as the arts, culture and heritage are concerned, I shall provide a few facts and figures. The sector received £126 million in donations of more than £1 million in 2008-09 and was the second most popular destination for million-pound donations after higher education. Overall, private investment in the arts and culture stood at £655 million in 2008-09. The Art Fund has saved more than 860,000 works of art through its campaigns directed at a public who have responded with their all-important pounds and pence.

The noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, mentioned the need for innovation and imagination. New and exciting forms of private support for the arts are emerging, such as All Visual Arts—set up by hedge fund billionaire Mike Platt—which aims to reinvent the age-old tradition of artistic patronage by investing in artists up-front. The artist receives money in advance that is offset against the final sale price of his or her work, with any profit split 50:50. Art dealers habitually take up to 70 per cent of the sale price, with no advance involved. This way of proceeding means that very few artists can make a living. At All Visual Arts, patrons receive a return on their investment, but the financial arrangement is much more favourable to the artist. This kind of social investment—sometimes called blended-value investment, because there is some financial return and a measurable social return—provides a different kind of support from government and should be encouraged further.

Another scheme at the other end of the philanthropic scale is called crowd funding. It involves encouraging large numbers of people to give small amounts of money through the web. My noble friend Lord Hodgson has already mentioned my noble friend Lady Barker—here I declare an interest, because she is a real friend as well as a noble friend—who is involved in a website called “See the Difference”, which is dedicated to the charity sector. In the arts sector next year there is to be launched a site called “We Did This”, which will focus on the arts. This is citizen philanthropy, and may have been inspired by the Art Fund’s brilliant campaign back in 2007, which successfully saved Turner’s “The Blue Rigi” for the nation, when members of the public were asked to pledge their support by buying “a brushstroke”. Both schemes promote the involvement of the giver with the cause they are donating to.

The Government need to do more to help organisations raise money so I make some suggestions, some of which have been mentioned. As a nation, we are not good at celebrating private giving. More should be done to make donors and their contributions more visible, which would demonstrate publicly the impact that they have on the organisations and individuals who receive them. The director of development for the National Galleries of Scotland has found that donors need to see a link between their gift and the projects that get released in the country. Gift Aid has been mentioned, as has the acceptance in lieu scheme being extended to cover lifetime gifts of works of art. We should also look at match funding, which has been hugely successful in helping to raise money for UK universities. Organisations that are looking to reduce their reliance on public funding by expanding their activities and developing their business models will need help during the transition period. Returning to universities, a crucial lesson learnt was the importance of investing in fundraising skills at all levels from vice-chancellors to new graduates.

The role of philanthropy in the area of arts and culture is emphatically to complement, rather than to act as a substitute for, government funding. Public money dispensed by arm’s-length bodies free from political or commercial considerations is a key part of the equation, and one that the generosity of individuals cannot and should not replace. Different sources of funding will work for different organisations, and we want a funding structure for the arts and culture that enables the greatest variety of artists and art forms to flourish. This includes supporting the risky and challenging and allowing the right to offend. With that thought in mind, I end with Oscar Wilde:

“Art should never try to be popular. The public should try to make itself artistic”.

15:20

[Lord Ramsbotham]

Like other noble Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Janvrin on obtaining this important debate and, as the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, said, on introducing in an exemplary manner his case for encouraging philanthropy. Like other noble Lords, I am also extremely grateful to the Library for yet again turning up a marvellous briefing for us, including the definition of philanthropy as being,

“practical benevolence towards people in general”.

I was also glad that it included the statement by the Minister for Civil Society, Nick Hurd, that he is trying to create new social norms around higher levels of giving of both time and money because for me, as the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, said, the philanthropy that we are talking about, particularly in relation to working with the public sector, is giving time, skill and experience as well as money. Some people give time and some people give money, and both have to be enabled.

In that connection, I agree with my noble friend Lord Janvrin who said that the Government need to explain how philanthropy can complement what the public sector is trying to do. In particular, turning to the criminal justice system, which I know is not the Minister’s field, the problem faced by the voluntary sector working in the criminal justice system is trying to come to terms with exactly what “payment by results” means. If small voluntary sector organisations, of which there are myriad, have to wait for six years until the result is proved to get their money, they will go under and disappear.

I am very interested in an increasing tendency for donors to come together to fund projects, including in the venture philanthropy area. In this, they are extremely fortunate to be helped by the admirable briefing that is available from an organisation that the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, has already mentioned, New Philanthropy Capital. Over the years, it has produced a number of extremely carefully researched reports pointing out to donors where their funding would be particularly valuable. That idea has been picked up by Philanthropy UK.

If I may for a moment concentrate on why I think that is important in the criminal justice system, it is because 50 per cent of all work done to rehabilitate offenders is done by the voluntary sector. Therefore, it is extremely important that that work is maximised, taken on board and enabled by government. I remember that during my first visit to Feltham I asked to meet the voluntary sector organisations that were working there. Forty-three organisations turned up to meet me. Many of them were doing exactly the same work, but with boys from different parts of London. None of them knew that the others were there, and there was no organisation by the Prison Service to make a note of what they were doing or to go out and find people who could come to do work that was required. I am very glad that that has now been rectified and, in addition, there is at last a recognition that the foundations and trusts that provide this money must be included in planning. There is a now a group that meets Ministers to make certain that foundation trust money is included overall in planning and is not wasted.

I mention that because at the same time there is another increasing trend that I welcome. It is the coming together of groups of people who give time, not just money. The Arts Alliance, which is a group of all the organisations bringing arts to offenders, was formed to try to maximise what they can do, to represent them to government and to act as a conduit to pass the Government’s views down to the sector. At the same time, another group of foundations and trusts has come together to maximise the recommendations for the voluntary sector that were included in the Corston report for women, because they felt that the Government of that time were not maximising or moving them forward quickly enough and that that again endangered the money that they were putting into it.

At the same time, I have another example—not from the criminal justice system—where this coming together of donors is achieving results. Many noble Lords will be aware of the large numbers of casualties coming back from Iraq and Afghanistan and of all the veterans from the Armed Forces facing other problems. There is the beginning now of a number of personnel recovery centres being established around the country to which they and their families can go for help. The help provided there on mental health, on employment and with practical help in other ways is being funded by collections of charities coming together. It seems to me that if there is to be a sort of new philanthropic movement in this country, it is very much spread around. Rather than small organisations doing wonderful things all over the place but in isolation, as we come into the increased financial stringencies it might perhaps make sense for them to come together and maximise what they do.

In that connection, I conclude by telling the Minister that, to me, if the public and voluntary sectors and philanthropy are to come together, the key word in it all is partnership. In order to maximise the extraordinary vibrancy and depth of philanthropy in this country, partnership is crucial. In doing that, however, I echo the words of my noble friend Lady Coussins in asking: please, please, will you do something to eliminate the bureaucracy, the red tape and the dangers of the things that the health and safety debate exposed last week which are inhibiting the ability of the voluntary and charitable sector to do all that it does so well for this country?

15:26

[Lord Best]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, for allowing us to have this excellent debate. I declare the interests that I have on the register, which include acting as chair of the giving forum, which brings together a number of interested parties to increase giving within the UK. Like the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, I declare an interest in having a charitable trust of my own. It is a very small one, and is administered by the Charities Aid Foundation. Perhaps it might be of value if I highlighted some advantages of creating those small trusts, or even of opening a simple account with the Charities Aid Foundation and of combining it with the use of the payroll-giving arrangements.

I want to explain to your Lordships why combining a CAF account or trust with payroll-giving—the CAF administers one of those schemes, called Give As You Earn—has huge advantages. Let me see if I can spell out those advantages. They will, I hope, appeal to that new group of people in the 30 to 50 age group whom the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Ashley Abbots, pointed out—they are, not least, in the City and earning money in the financial sector or the legal profession—and who may be in a position to make a monthly donation to the world of charity. Using the payroll-giving instrument and a charitable foundation—a small trust, or simply by opening an account there—has the following seven advantages.

Payroll-giving allows you to plan the amount that you are going to give each month, and then forget about it. When appeals come out of the blue, you do not have to put your hand in your pocket; you take it from the account that you have already established and into which your monthly payment goes. You have the satisfaction of watching the funds accumulate there until such time as you wish to spend them. You also get automatic tax relief paid into that account. It is not only tax relief at the standard rate, which is what happens with gift aid, but an automatic credit to your account of tax at your highest rate. If you are a 40 per cent tax rate payer, 40 per cent is credited to the account; and if in the future you are a 50 per cent tax rate payer, 50 per cent will accrue to your account. If you do not want to get some of that money back by reclaiming it from the Revenue by filling in a lot of forms, it is a very simple and straightforward way to give all the money that you wish to give and of having it all credited against your account for additional tax.

You can be generous when the office marathon runners all suddenly decide that they wish to approach you for sponsorship in a month when you have had rather a lot of other expenditure, because it is going to come out of your separate account. You can change the charities that you support at whim. You are not boxed into a monthly payment to the same charity month after month. You can do as you please. If, as I suspect some Members of this House do, you receive occasional fees for lectures or conferences, you can ask for the cheque to be made payable to your charitable account instead of to yourself, and in that way you do not have all the hassle of remembering to declare the money, pay tax on it and then perhaps donate it to charity; the cheque can just be made out to your charitable account. No administration is involved, there is no tax return entry to make, and there are no setting-up costs, so the lawyers get nothing out of this arrangement at all. Finally, and most importantly, it is hugely rewarding to be able to make your cheques out to local charities.

Nowadays, I am afraid that I am approached by charities that are struggling, perhaps because their statutory funding has been cut back, but it is important to be able to assist without damage to one’s own finances. I am sure that I shall be more than tempted by the See the Difference programme, which I think the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, will tell us about later.

For all those reasons, the combination of payroll-giving and opening a CAF account has huge advantages. I ask the Minister to consider ways in which the corporate sector—businesses and companies—can be helped to foster arrangements of this kind, making it as easy as possible for people to sign up to payroll-giving and making it part of the culture of the workplace. People in a company simply sign a form and the payroll-giving system allows them to opt to donate so much per month, which they can always top up. If the tsunami appeal comes along, you can donate through payroll-giving just by dropping a note to the HR department. Companies can make this extremely easy for everyone, and I believe that Nick Hurd, the Minister in the other place, is looking at potential incentives for companies to do more. This is one way in which businesses can be very helpful—not least with auto-enrolment, whereby people are included almost whether they like it or not. Everything is made so easy that the process happens almost automatically.

In conclusion, I very much support the suggestion of the noble Lord, Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, that we have a debate on another occasion about charitable remainder trusts—the lifetime legacies to which the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, also referred. I think that these trusts were first dreamt up in about 2001 by the Institute for Philanthropy, and they were the subject of a debate that we had in 2006—a debate in which some noble Lords here took part. I think that we are now ready for lifetime legacies; they, too, could make a big difference.

15:32

[Viscount Eccles]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Best. The only thing that he did not mention was the gift of shares, which is an even sharper way of getting your marginal tax relief out of the CAF. I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, and the Library.

My theme, briefly, is philanthropy and the church, and I am very conscious that the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle will be listening. I am prompted to speak on this subject by reports that the Church Commissioners are again considering the sale of the Zurbarán pictures—Zurbarán being a famous 16th century artist who painted Jacob and his children—which hang in Auckland Castle, the seat of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham. I live in the north-east of England, which is an area of amazing Christian heritage. I live more or less equidistant from Durham Cathedral and York Minster, slightly closer to Ripon Cathedral and not far from Whitby and Jarrow. Many churches in the north-east of England are old and famous. Escomb and Lastingham, for example, have Roman parts.

The church has always been incredibly philanthropic from the very earliest days of the monasteries and the foundation of schools and university colleges. It is incredibly philanthropic today, as indeed we heard from the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle. It is involved in the academy movement, for example. However, the church, too, depends on charity. It depends on collections and on the famous diocesan quota, and it is dependent on appeals. Durham Cathedral, York Minster and Ripon Cathedral all have appeals. Every noble Lord will know of a church not far from where they live that has an appeal because, for example, the roof needs mending.

Why do people give money to these appeals and contribute to church collections? It is always true to say that there is an emotional connection in the giving of money, a feeling that it should be done and that we benefit not only the person to whom we give the money but ourselves. That has been mentioned by several noble Lords. If you go to an advent service in Durham Cathedral, you are much more likely to give money to the cathedral appeal.

This takes me back to the Zurbarán pictures, which were given to Auckland Castle by Bishop Trevor in 1756. He did up a room and put them in it, and they are still there today. It is necessary to think very carefully about selling them. The Church Commissioners are probably seen, quite correctly, as a business, since they manage some £5 billion of assets. If they were to sell the Zurbaráns, the paintings might go for £12 million, which is the figure that is being bandied about. I will not speculate on their destination. There is an idea that they should stay in the north-east, but maybe they will go somewhere quite different. Presumably the money will be added to the endowment of the Church Commissioners. It would yield an income at 4 per cent, which is roughly the yield on the commissioners’ portfolio of around £500,000 a year. The question then, if they are sold, is why I need to give money to the local church for repairs if the church has just raised £12 million.

At the same time, we have heard about community foundations and giving money to the church to organise a community foundation or a school. The two-way street has been a consistent feature of the church and needs to be thought about very carefully. It might be better to go the other way around with the Zurbarán pictures in Auckland Castle: that is, to raise money from charitable sources to keep the castle and its pictures as they are.

15:38

[Baroness Barker]

My Lords, I begin by declaring some interests. I am the owner of a consultancy called Third Sector Business, which works in the charitable sector, and, as a number of noble Lords have said, I also work with See the Difference. I put on the record the organisation’s thanks to the many Members of your Lordships’ House who over the past two years have shared with us their wisdom and support. We are immensely grateful for that. In a moment I shall talk about what See the Difference does in some detail, because it points the way forward for many of the issues which the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, raised so eloquently in his speech.

Christmas is upon us and I have a gift for Members of your Lordships’ House. It is a sure-fire way to get through the Christmas shopping crowds in Oxford Street. It is very easy. All you have to do is put on a fluorescent jacket with the name of a charity on it and carry a clipboard. The waves will part and people will avoid you. That is because “chuggers” encapsulate what is wrong with the relationship between charities and donors and why that has to change. Currently we have a situation in which charities engage with people in a conversation about money. We Brits do not like talking about money. The Americans do—that is why they are different—but we do not. We shy away from it, so the way in which charities ask for support and engage with their donors needs to change. Why is that? It is because some 16 million of our compatriots aged 25 to 50 are frustrated givers, and they conduct much of their life on Facebook. They are very interested in and concerned about issues. They want to engage with charities but they want that engagement to be fulfilling, rewarding and fun; they want it to be something that they can share with their friends and family. Above all, they want to see the difference that their input will make.

My charity and others—I name-check AliveandGiving and the Pennies Foundation—are waking up to that and are trying to find ways in which we can use the internet, films and videos to make the connection that people want between their act of philanthropy and the output. That may involve Durham Cathedral or, in the case of Bill Gates, delivering malaria vaccines to Bangladesh. We know that seeing the difference that you make is the most inspiring thing and it is inspiration, not obligation, that drives philanthropy. Our charity trains UK-registered charities to make little films that make a specific ask for money. If you or I or anyone gives any amount of money, the undertaking is that we will receive feedback that shows exactly what difference our money made. That is immensely powerful.

Why am I raising this issue in this debate? The lives of the next generation, particularly the younger end, are in many ways organised around the internet. For 20 year-olds these days, if something goes wrong with their mobile phone, that is it; life comes to a grinding halt. Yet in the charitable sector we think that mobile phone technology is new. We need to get the expertise from the private sector and other places to help us to develop apps and so on, so that giving to charity becomes part of the culture of that generation. People from that generation are, I believe, very generous, but they want to give in a way that is different from the way in which the older generation give.

I believe—and I would love to debate CSR at considerable length with the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins—that some of the biggest contributions that our biggest companies, particularly retailers, could make to the charitable sector would be to share their wisdom about IT, social networking and management information. More than anything else, that would be an enormous help to the voluntary sector, not least because in many ways—the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, alluded to this—charities will have to become consumer-led organisations. We know that consumer-led organisations can meet the expectations of their consumers only if they have good systems behind their work to deliver. We expect private companies to have good systems, but we expect charities to run on thin air. That does not work.

My question to the noble Lord, Lord Taylor, is whether there will be a digital strategy in the Green Paper and the White Paper. If we do not deal with issues such as the need to increase digital giving, as discussed in the recent ResPublica report, we will continue to exclude that generation from something that we all take for granted as a rewarding part of our lives. There is a great deal of hope in the work that we and organisations such as the Pennies Foundation and AliveandGiving are doing. It enables small charities, in particular those working with unpopular causes, which will never have the resources that the big 10 or 20 have, to reach out to a whole load of people whom they would never otherwise meet. People out there are willing to support unpopular causes, such as working with drug addicts and offenders, if they can see what is being done. This is an immensely exciting time for charities, and I believe that the Government have an important role to play in bringing together the best of the private sector and the best of the voluntary sector to ensure that we make this huge leap towards engaging a new generation in a new way of handling philanthropy in society.

15:45

[Lord Fellowes]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Janvrin on and thank him for initiating this debate, which is on an increasingly important subject. I declare an interest in having connections with various charities as trustee.

No one would doubt that the encouragement of philanthropy is a thoroughly good thing, but in my view the tax incentives for personal giving are about as good in this country as anywhere, although the business of claiming tax deductions seems more convoluted here than necessary and conspicuously more so than in the United States.

The charitable sector is at present suffering a double squeeze. First, many endowments and private resources were decimated in the dramas of 2008, from which they have not fully recovered. Secondly—and this is a more recent pressure—many public bodies have recently had their grant in aid severely cut. Those with charitable status will inevitably pursue with increasing vigour the pool of money from foundations and individuals which the traditional charitable sector has hitherto had pretty well to itself. Here I must declare a particular interest as a board member of the British Library. Many such public bodies have been operating in the commercial field and in the search for philanthropic donors for years, and with some success, but those efforts will now have to be stepped up, and there is no easy way for them to do it. They cannot just flick a switch and say, “We’ll make up the gap by getting £X million of philanthropic giving” and launching a few eye-catching exhibitions for which they can charge. In today’s world, that just will not work.

So where will they go for honey? There has been a surprising and distinct trend over the past five or 10 years showing a sharp decline in corporate philanthropy, also known as corporate social investment, relative to individual giving. That says much for the generosity of the individual, but also much about shareholder power, which nowadays is seldom supportive of corporate philanthropy in the old form, giving with no dividend expected. They want their company to get a bang for its charitable buck in the shape of profile, reputation and business advantage.

While corporate philanthropy in the old sense is increasingly rare, the alternative—corporate sponsorship and partnership—is growing, albeit slowly. But it is still in its infancy as a major force in the philanthropic market, by no means correcting the imbalance between corporate and private giving. To help this correction along the way, I should like to see tax incentives for corporate support and charity in all its forms increased to reverse the trend whereby the individual is bearing the brunt of charitable demand. I am happy to say that the individual will always be the beating heart of real philanthropy, but that nowadays will never be enough.

Sponsorship or partnership—call it what you will—between major companies and charities, whether public or private bodies, is very much part of the way forward, but I hope that the Government see fit to give the tax system a nudge or two in the right direction to make it easier and more attractive to the donor and the recipient. That could change the present trickle of help into a constant and benevolent stream. The burden on the individual will be lightened and the recipient body will benefit, not only financially but in the long-term relationships built up between it and the corporate sector. That sector will acquire an understanding of a world outside its normal ken. There should be no losers in this, but possibly prizes for all.

15:49

[Lord Luce]

My Lords, I am not sure whether being last in the debate is an advantage or disadvantage. One can say without hesitation that the range of knowledge and experience that we have heard in this debate has been quite remarkable. The sense of timing of my noble friend Lord Janvrin is also just right, given that we all agree that we face a traumatic period because of the dramatic reduction in public expenditure over the next four years. With much of the taxpayer support that has been going to charitable bodies due to be reduced, there is an opportunity, as well as a challenge, for this country to find a way of improving the culture of giving.

As a former Arts Minister and a former university vice-chancellor, I have found that this country lies somewhere between the United States and the continent in respect of the balance between public and private financing. Of course, the United States has a long history and tradition of generating a sense of duty of giving by private individuals, along with a kind of anti-state sense—no doubt fostered more recently by the Republican Tea Party. An interesting point to observe is that, as a proportion of GDP, individual giving accounts for 0.14 per cent in France, 1.7 per cent in the United States and 0.73 per cent in the United Kingdom. That rather bears out the idea that we lie somewhere in the middle.

Listening to many of the comments of noble friends in the House, I found it interesting to hear about some of the new characteristics in giving. For example, 75 per cent of all high-net-worth individuals take the view that they want to give more during a recession. Even more significant, the younger generation—classified as the 18 to 34 year-olds—feels a growing responsibility to share wealth. I recall from talking to Dame Alison Richards, who was the successor to my noble friend Lord Broers as vice-chancellor of the University of Cambridge, that 33 per cent of the undergraduates at Cambridge are thought to be actively involved in participation in charitable work. That is very different—and a big improvement—from my day.

The characteristics of the donors are also interesting. As my noble friend Lord Janvrin said, many more of the givers now are business owners or businessmen rather than people who have inherited wealth. It is interesting that their motives for giving, according to the studies, come from wanting to give something back to the community, which gives them a sense of personal fulfilment. I think that all that is encouraging. Donors also desire to be involved in anything to which they give money, such as social ventures or whatever they happen to be. They want to help to make the charities more efficient, which in many cases is much needed.

Therefore, an immense challenge faces the coalition to produce, after an intense study, a broad range of measures and incentives that will encourage greater giving in this country. We must give credit to the previous Government for the work that they did, not least in introducing gift aid and in setting up organisations such as UK Philanthropy. The coalition must build on that.

I found that, after some experience as an Arts Minister—I should also declare an interest as president of the King George V Fund for Actors and Actresses and president of the Voluntary Arts Network—I could prove to the Chancellor, which was an important thing to be able to do in seeking more taxpayers’ money, that every £1 of taxpayers’ money would generate £5 in the private sector. I think that a large amount of that was due to the Association for Business Sponsorship of the Arts, which raised money from employers through challenge funding and match funding. The association also enabled employers to be more involved with the arts organisations, which also gave pleasure to their employees.

For universities, matching funding can also be a great help, particularly when raising money from alumni. From my experience at the University of Buckingham, I also know the value of local community philanthropists, such as Evelyn de Rothschild, who was generous enough to give money for a new building for business studies. But the Government’s review must range broadly from lifetime legacies to endowments—which we have not discussed very much—and bequests. It must cover local community foundations, corporate and payroll giving, and innovative funding of one kind or another.

There has been some suggestion that gift aid might be replaced by some other tax incentives. If that is the case, gift aid still has a long way to go. It is a marvellous incentive, but only 68,000 out of 162,000 charities participate in the gift aid system. A 1 per cent increase in gift aid would produce another £45 million for charities. I hope that we do not undermine gift aid, but find ways of improving it.

This is a real chance to try to help change the climate for giving, but none of us has any illusions that it is a gradual and long-term process. The Government need to take a strong lead in this area. I hope that the Minister will reassure us that they will do so.

15:56

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

My Lords, I shall speak in the gap for no longer than a minute. I very much agree with what the noble Lord, Lord Best, said about the Charities Aid Foundation. He listed many of the benefits which that body confers, but he missed out perhaps one. There may be others who like me inherited a very modest portfolio—which is probably the wrong word—of shares. Those shares increased so much in value over the years that I would not have been able to sell them without paying a very hefty sum by way of capital gains tax. I therefore transferred them to the Charities Aid Foundation, which is able to sell the shares at their current value. Far from being a pain, it turned out to be a positive pleasure to do so.

15:57

[Baroness Thornton]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, on initiating this debate. I also congratulate other noble Lords on their contributions to what has been a fascinating debate, with each contribution serving to illustrate the knowledge and experience that resides in your Lordships’ House.

The great philanthropist Andrew Carnegie said that the man who dies rich dies disgraced. Without doubt, the history of giving and philanthropy is ancient and honourable—there are records of generosity and civic and monumental good works that go back hundreds if not thousands of years. In medieval times, giving to the needy—and the endowment of monasteries, Barts hospital, universities, cathedrals and schools—was one way of ensuring of your place in heaven. Ironically, the schools thus endowed, established originally to educate the humble and less well-off, included some which are now our most expensive public schools—but I do not intend to go down that road today.

Today there is probably a less clear line to the Almighty. It is difficult to explain, for example, why Michael Jackson was the most generous giver to charity of all rock stars, or why Bill and Melinda Gates and Warren Buffett give through their foundations the equivalent of the budget of a small state for the eradication of some of the world’s most horrible diseases in the poorest countries. Carnegie’s maxim is as true today as it was when he made his huge bequests in 1901, which were the equivalent of £7 billion today. As the noble Lord, Lord Luce, said, people want to give something back. Indeed, what else should you do with such huge amounts of money when you reach the point that you want for nothing and there is nothing that you cannot afford? I echo the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, in asking who is the greater philanthropist, the person who gives £1 billion from a fortune of many times that size, or the old lady who finds £20 from her weekly state pension for the homeless or the Haiti disaster?

Several questions have been explored in the debate, the first being how to encourage philanthropy at all levels. Does our tax system encourage or make giving difficult? What are the barriers? I hope that the Minister will be able to tell the House what progress is being made in that direction.

I was told a few days ago by the director of one of our great arts and heritage institutions that it is easy to donate a valuable work of art after you are dead but, because of the suspicion and bureaucracy of the Inland Revenue, you have to be very determined to do it if you are alive. Another leader of an arts institution has said that, while endowments have their place, tax incentives for giving are a matter of urgency in this period of savage cuts.

On that theme, the Charities Aid Foundation, which has been mentioned many times today, estimates that almost £750 million is lost to the charitable sector in unclaimed gift aid. Maximising donor usage would compensate for the fall in overall donations of more than £700 million. I urge the Government to continue the work of the previous Government to raise awareness of gift aid among the public through creative, widespread campaigns. We know that incentives exist within the tax system for higher earners to give. Some donors can claim tax relief for themselves at 20 per cent of their gross donation, or redirect any tax refund to charity. However, recent research by the Charities Aid Foundation revealed that 50 per cent of higher rate taxpayers are unaware of that tax incentive. When unaware respondents were informed of the option, more than half said that they would be willing to give that personal relief to charity, but the current processes are a barrier to doing so.

The second question that this debate raises is where the balance lies between philanthropic giving and the provision of, say, education and health, through taxation and democratic accountability. Like other noble Lords, I turn to America to explore that question. The point can be illustrated by the example of the chief executive of Facebook, Mark Zuckerberg, who has recently set up a foundation with $100 million worth of Facebook stock to be used to improve education in America, with the primary goal of helping children being educated in Newark.

Mr Zuckerberg has had a long-standing interest in education, particularly in the low salaries of teachers, and the donation comes at a time when the foundations and wealthy investors in America are increasingly funnelling large amounts of money to public education—but, I have to say, with strings attached. In Washington DC this year, foundations have pledged millions of dollars to pay for an increase in teachers’ pay, which is tied to teachers’ ability to show that they can help students improve. It is clear that that money is at least in some part substituting for state funding to ensure the fabric and standards of those maintained schools. Who can say that that is not worthwhile philanthropy? However, in the UK context, it raises some interesting questions.

What does the Minister think about that as a direction, and is it the direction in which the Government intend the big society to progress? I note that Sam Middleton, of ResPublica, states in an article on the very useful Philanthropy UK website:

“In this age of austerity, where unprecedented levels of public debt mean less money for the state to spend, the Big Society, far from asking philanthropists to blindly step in to fill the gap left by the removal of government funding, provides the opportunity to revolutionise fundraising and the interactions between donors, civil society organisations and communities”.

That is interesting and, to a certain extent, reassuring, but I am not entirely sure what it means. Perhaps the Minister could explain and give us some examples. I agree with my noble friend Lady Pitkeathley that charity giving, voluntary work and philanthropy are not substitutes for adequate public provision.

In exploring those matters further, I have reflected on the role of the cancer charities, Macmillan and Cancer Research UK. Macmillan raises millions to support people with cancer, particularly by the employment of Macmillan nurses in the NHS. Cancer Research UK also raises millions to conduct vital cancer research—importantly, within the NHS. I hope that no one is suggesting that those organisations could possibly provide NHS cancer services. That works, I suggest, because the balance is right. It works best because the public sector and the charitable sector are working in harmony.

I have worked in and with the charitable sector all my life. I started my working life working for Gingerbread. I worked for Citizens Advice and then for the late and distinguished Lord Young of Dartington, then Michael Young, at the Institute of Community Studies at Bethnal Green. Indeed, I remain a volunteer, and I have never doubted that I gain much more from being a volunteer than I give.

The charitable sector in the UK is one of our national treasures. One of the strengths of the sector is its relative flexibility and agility. Given the right leadership, a charity can innovate and adapt more quickly, more easily and with more creativity than large public or corporate bodies. We need to celebrate that.

It is interesting that family foundation giving is defying the economic downturn and making a substantial and growing contribution to tackling society’s ills. That is in a report produced by the ESRC Centre for Charitable Giving and Philanthropy at the Cass Business School. It lists lots of the established charities of which your Lordships will be aware: the Wellcome Trust, the Gatsby Charitable Foundation, the Leverhulme Trust, the Wolfson Foundation and the Monument Trust. It also talks about the new family foundations that have been established over the past couple of decades, largely funded by the successful entrepreneurs of an era of expanding global markets: the Waterloo Trust, set up by the owners of Admiral Insurance; the Volant trust, set up by J K Rowling; the Foyle Foundation; the Martin Smith Foundation; and the Children’s Investment Fund Foundation.

I conclude with some more questions for the Minister. The Government have been vocal in their promotion of and support for philanthropy, charity and volunteering, but we have to judge actions not by words but by what actually happens. We need to say that many charities are experiencing huge anxiety about their future. ACEVO estimates that charities face £3 billion in cuts, and I wonder why the Charity Commission is facing a 33 per cent cut over the next few years. I am great admirer of the Charity Commission; it is one of our best and most effective public bodies. I am concerned that the strategic review that it is bound to undertake as a result of the cuts that it faces will lead to a diminution of its effectiveness and, therefore, the support that it can give the charity sector.

We have had a wonderful debate, and I look forward to the Minister’s remarks.

16:07

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, on securing this debate, as I think all the participants have done. It has been an interesting debate, but the noble Lord’s introduction of the topic was a tour d’horizon of the world of philanthropy and was a superb introduction for our debate today. I am sure that the whole House is very grateful to him for his contribution.

I think I have everything here; I have been making notes as I have been going through and I hope to insert them in the right places in the order of events. If I may, I will just make sure that I have them in place to do just that.

Philanthropy has played a very important role in our country for a very long time and continues to do so. All noble Lords have spoken from their own experience. Tributes have been paid to the Library, and indeed it produced a jolly good brief, but in fact it is the experience of noble Lords that has provided the quality to this debate. It was particularly useful to be able to hear about the direct experience of noble Lords such as my noble friend Lady Barker, who told us about her work in this field.

Occasionally the generous acts of a major celebrity philanthropist hit the headlines. Recent examples include JK Rowling and Ricky Tomlinson, but there are millions of acts of generosity every year, from multi-million pound gifts to smaller acts of kindness that never attract any headlines. As a society, we need to do more to celebrate these acts.

My noble friend Lord Brooke drew attention to the link between giving time and money and a sense of well-being. My noble friend Lord Phillips pointed out the way in which social action and philanthropy define our society’s values. Philanthropy can epitomise social responsibility. People willing to invest their resources for the good of others and the society around them can have a real impact. Independent sources of income from individuals, companies and charitable trusts can help communities to solve problems and improve things themselves.

Philanthropy can also have a wider benefit by enabling individuals to learn more about their communities and encouraging integration. It is, therefore, very good to know that we are one of the most generous nations in the world when it comes to giving. As a proportion of GDP, we are second in the developed world after the United States. According to the citizenship survey that covers 2009 to 2010, 72 per cent of adults had given to charity in the previous four weeks, with £17.70 being the average amount given. This is a very good starting point as we turn our vision for a big society into a reality.

The big society aims to build on and develop all forms of social responsibility. In particular, it is about community empowerment, giving local councils and neighbourhoods more power to take decisions and shape their areas. It is about opening up public services and enabling charities, social enterprises, private companies and employee-owned co-operatives to compete to offer high-quality services. Most of all, linked to philanthropy, it is about social action—encouraging and enabling people to play a more active part in society, because philanthropy without engagement does not succeed. However, if we want philanthropy to play a major part in all of this, we must recognise that there are challenges. It appears that while the amount of money given to charity is stable, the number of people who give to charity is declining, or has declined over the past five years.

Giving could also be more tax-effective. Many noble Lords focused on this and rightly so; it is an area of considerable concern. The Charities Aid Foundation estimates that £750 million of Gift Aid goes unclaimed annually. Noble Lords know how difficult it is to note Gift Aid at the time of giving. Many noble Lords have also pointed out that higher-rate taxpayers are often ignorant of the fact that there is extra money that they can either give or receive themselves, if that is what they would prefer. Certainly, through CAF giving, they could add that to their charitable giving. It presents an opportunity for people to be more generous and to find mechanisms whereby the provisions that the Inland Revenue makes for philanthropy can be turned to good causes.

There were many ideas on this front. When this debate is studied, I hope many of them will be taken up as a result of what has been said. I liked in particular the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Best, who spoke from his own experience of the practical arrangements that he had come to. We know also that there is room for increased giving in some segments of the population. The rich give less as a proportion of their income than the poor. The richest 20 per cent give 0.7 per cent of their income to charity, while the poorest donors give 3 per cent. The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, asked who was the more generous. If we could encourage a greater percentile of generous giving from the richest 20 per cent, we could transform the landscape of arts and charities in this country. I think that that was the message from the introductory speech of the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin. Government must take action to support philanthropy. We know that there are high levels of social responsibility in our country, but it needs to be cultivated and facilitated to become something more than good will.

Several noble Lords talked in depth about practical matters. I was very grateful for the contribution of the noble Baroness, Lady Coussins, on corporate responsibility. She portrayed an environment in which there was a link between ethics and business, and where altruism and self-interest could coincide successfully to build up businesses and the workplace as a philanthropic community. Her contribution in that area was particularly important. The noble Lord, Lord Fellowes, talked about growing corporate partnerships, and about the ways in which tax incentives in this area could produce a considerable dividend for philanthropy.

My noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts—I will return later to the work that he is doing in this area—talked about trying to identify why people are not more generous, given that the reward for giving, namely, a sense of well-being, is considerable. He felt that we should encourage the wealthy through structures that ensure that less popular causes also receive charitable support, and pointed out that populism and philanthropy do not necessarily produce the most satisfactory outcomes overall. He posed a number of interesting questions about privacy and transparency, and I am sure that his contribution will be read with great interest by those who are producing the White Paper.

I am very grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, for talking about the way in which charitable action and giving combine. It is true that the Government are providing less funding to voluntary groups. However, the big society provides an opportunity for these groups to access a greater proportion of government spending. We hope that they will be in a position to do this. There is a transitional fund of £100 million, which is designed to capitalise these projects and so enable them to do that. I had not heard of The Big Give. Perhaps the noble Earl will advise me on it, because it sounds interesting. We do know about sites such as Localgiving.com, which are also of interest. It is interesting how much we ended up talking about modern technology and philanthropy. This is something that we cannot ignore.

I can reassure the noble Baronesses, Lady Thornton and Lady Pitkeathley, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle that we do not see philanthropy as replacing the Government’s role in the wider society. That is not the thrust of my contribution to the debate, nor, I suspect, that of anyone. We recognise the role of government as the major provider of public service, but as a driver for priorities in social engagement, philanthropy can be an extremely important factor.

As many noble Lords said, the Office for Civil Society is developing a Green Paper on giving, which will draw on thinking from across government. The Green Paper is due in December and will be followed by a White Paper in March 2011. It could be said that we are having this debate just a little too early. On the other hand, let us hope that we can have a debate after these papers are produced, as many noble Lords would like the opportunity of comparing the papers with their ambitions for this topic.

I am limited in the detail I can provide before the Green Paper is published, but I will talk about it in general terms. The Government have a clear role in facilitating philanthropy. The Green Paper will consider that role and will take a bottom-up approach, recognising that the most effective proposals for increased giving and social action are likely to come from communities, business and civil society. As part of this, it will showcase some of the most innovative approaches, including those which use the latest technologies, and will challenge government, the voluntary and community sector, and business to think about how they can incorporate these approaches. The Green Paper will also take on board the latest insights from behavioural economics to encourage social behaviours. As mentioned by my noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury, the paper will focus not only on giving money but on how people can best give their time and skills for the benefit of others and themselves.

Alongside the Green Paper, the Government are taking forward a number of other pieces of work to support philanthropy. As mentioned by my noble friend Lady Bonham-Carter, the role of philanthropy in the arts and culture has a long and noble pedigree. Through the Medici family in Renaissance Italy to Andrew Carnegie in the early 20th century, to the noble Lord, Lord Sainsbury of Preston Candover, and Dame Vivien Duffield today, philanthropists have supported artists and enabled culture and creativity to flourish, enhancing our civilisation. The Secretary of State for Culture, my right honourable friend Jeremy Hunt, will be announcing a package of measures to boost philanthropy in the coming few weeks.

It should be noted that 70 per cent of all private giving to the arts goes to bodies in London. There is a particular challenge, therefore, around fundraising for the arts in the other English regions, which the Government recognise and want to help address. Over the past year, the Treasury has been conducting a review of Gift Aid through a sector-led forum. The forum made a number of recommendations to improve and simplify the administration of Gift Aid and its promotion to taxpayers. Many of the recommendations will be taken forward through a new customer forum chaired by HMRC. The Government aim to publish the Gift Aid report and their initial response on the Treasury website tomorrow. We are just a day too early to discuss it but we can go to bed tonight in thoughtful anticipation of what we will discover on the morrow.

The Government are also taking action to encourage giving in local communities. In that respect, I am grateful for the contribution of the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar. She referred to community foundations and to how doers and givers can have great leverage on the way in which these things work. Small amounts applied wisely build up social capital, and rich and poor can discover their shared values in their communities. I commend her contribution to the debate because it exemplified the kind of theme we are hoping to encourage.

The Communities First Fund, which will be launched next year, will include a matched funding programme to encourage philanthropists to contribute to the building up of local endowments that will support local action. While I was listening to the debate, my noble friend Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts informed me that the committee in which he is involved has met seven times and will publish a report in March or April about deregulation in the CRB. He is dealing with this matter and I hope that he will bring forward recommendations which will make things much easier for the voluntary sector. I hope that, together, this work will bring about a significant increase in philanthropy.

Philanthropy enables the big society, both as a source of funds that facilitates independence outside the state, and as a means of creating social capital and stronger and healthier communities. I return to the words of my noble friend Lord Phillips of Sudbury on the issue of engagement. The key thing that philanthropy policy should be designed to do is to build on the strong levels of giving in this country. It should make it possible for all who are involved in the charitable sector to feel that their giving will be much easier and more effective.

Again, on behalf of all noble Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Janvrin, for securing the debate, and I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to it.

16:29

[Lord Janvrin]

My Lords, I add my thanks to all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate. The range of experience, wisdom and ideas has been extremely helpful in supporting what I hope will be the start of a continuing debate on this subject in the coming months. I particularly thank the Library for its briefing, which was produced extremely quickly and was incredibly comprehensive and very useful.

I pick up on the Minister’s remarks that we might be too early. I hope that this will be a contribution to the thinking that is going on and I welcome the idea that we might come back to the subject. I remain of the view, and am greatly encouraged in it, that this is extremely important for our society and for us all. I thank all noble Lords for taking part.

Motion withdrawn.

Income-related Benefits (Subsidy to Authorities) (Temporary Accommodation) Amendment Order 2010

Thursday 2nd December 2010 Lords Chamber

Motion to Take Note

16:29

Moved by

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

That this House takes note of the Income-related Benefits (Subsidy to Authorities) (Temporary Accommodation) Amendment Order 2010 (SI 2010/2509).

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

My Lords, I am pleased to see the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Freud, in his place. Such is the generosity—indeed, the philanthropic nature—of the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, particularly with his time this week, that he has become a bit of a fixture on the Front Bench. I therefore thought that he may be replying to the Motion—perhaps he is—but we will wait and see.

The order builds on a scheme that my party introduced this year when in government to control the cost of housing benefit awarded to claimants living in temporary accommodation. The current scheme applies only to claimants in temporary accommodation that is leased or licensed by a local authority from a private landlord. The order that we are debating extends the scheme to accommodation where the landlord is a registered housing association. On that very narrow basis, I say at the outset that it is reasonable.

This Take Note Debate has been tabled better to understand the ever changing environment of housing benefit in which this order will operate from April next year. In particular, I am keen to understand how it relates to the statutory instruments that were published this week and reported on by the Social Security Advisory Committee: the Housing Benefit (Amendment) Regulations 2010 and the Rent Officers (Housing Benefit Functions) Amendment Order 2010. Like the order that we are debating today, they limit the amount of housing benefit that can be awarded under the local housing allowance arrangements from April next year by removing the five-bedroom local housing allowance rate so that the maximum level is for a four-bedroom house; by introducing absolute caps so that local housing allowance weekly rates cannot exceed £250 for a one-bedroom property, £290 for a two-bedroom property, £340 for a three-bedroom property and £400 for a four-bedroom property; by removing the £15 weekly housing benefit excess that some customers can receive under the local housing allowance arrangements; and by setting the local housing allowance rates at the 30th percentile of rents in each broad rental market area rather than the median.

These orders are extremely controversial, in stark contrast to the order that we are debating now. However, it is difficult to scrutinise today’s order properly without understanding the effect of these two later ones because, in essence, if the effect of the other housing benefit changes is as bad as some people fear, they will increase the pressure on temporary accommodation. This, in turn, is important, given what the Explanatory Memorandum to today’s order says about the consultation response. Paragraph 8.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum states:

“Concern was generally raised that local authorities would be required to find alternative accommodation for a number of households in more expensive areas or in larger properties”.

It goes on to say that,

“the extent to which private landlords will be willing to renegotiate lease payments downwards, thereby sustaining existing tenancies, is not clear at this stage. The National Housing Federation Practitioners Group estimated that up to a quarter of its members’ stock could be at risk”.

I note that at paragraph 7.4 of the Explanatory Memorandum, the Government say that fixing the level of subsidy to March 2013 will,

“help maintain the supply and quality of temporary accommodation”.

On that basis it is clear that the Government are also concerned about the supply of temporary accommodation. Therefore, I ask the Minister what the Government's own assessment of the effect of these changes is on the supply of temporary accommodation. Can he then tell us what additional demand he anticipates from the other changes to housing benefit that are being implemented through the other orders tabled this week? In doing so, he may also want to reflect on what the Social Security Advisory Committee said in its report on the changes. The document states at page 4:

“The Committee’s report recommends that the Government should not go ahead with the package of amendments proposed. The Committee raised a number of concerns about the scale and impact of the changes, and the serious effect this would have on customers claiming Housing Benefit who are living in the private rented sector, particularly those claiming according to Local Housing Allowance rules”.

On the same page, the document states:

“The Committee challenged the case for change that was put forward by the Department for Work and Pensions. They felt it was contradictory to suggest that Housing Benefit reform is needed to ensure the housing choices of benefit recipients are geared to a similar level that people in work are likely to achieve, as Housing Benefit is also available to people in work. In addition, the Committee found no evidence to suggest that the housing choices made by Housing Benefit customers are excessive, noting research which suggests that the Local Housing Allowance arrangements are not unduly favourable compared to low income working households”.

The document continues:

“The Committee commented on the Government’s increase in funding for Discretionary Housing Payments which they note represents around 4% of the total cash losses that will result from these measures. They believe this increase will be insufficient to allow local authorities to provide adequate support, even for vulnerable customers, to meet their rent or find suitable accommodation”.

I shall talk about vulnerable customers later.

Finally, the report states:

“The Committee concludes that the Housing Benefit measures represent a high risk approach to managing the cost of Local Housing Allowance cases”;

and states on page 26:

“Apart from the potential financial hardship, the human costs, the child poverty and other wider negative impacts of these proposed changes, we also see them as being out of step with the broader thrust of policies to incentivise work and to make work pay”.

The Minister may also want to reflect on what Shelter said this week. It stated:

“But this will not change the fact that when these changes will come into force, 134,000 households will be uprooted from their homes. It is extremely disappointing that the government has ignored the advice of both its own advisory committee and voices across the housing sector in ploughing ahead with these damaging proposals”.

The uprooting of 134,000 households means a massive new pressure on temporary accommodation. Will the changes in this order help or hinder in meeting those pressures?

Given that the Government’s own impact assessment on the high-level impact of the local housing allowance measures shows a staggering 936,960 household losers from these changes and that the average loss per household will be £12 per week, does the Minister agree that the Shelter estimate is probably quite cautious at 134,000 households? What is his analysis of the geography of this misery? The University of Cambridge study commissioned by Shelter shows a halving of the proportion of affordable neighbourhoods if these changes are implemented. This study suggests that there will be no affordable neighbourhoods in the City of London or Kensington and Chelsea, and less than 10 per cent in Hammersmith and Fulham, Islington and here in Westminster. It looks as though that will result in large numbers needing to use the time to readjust of up to nine months that is now generously offered by the Government, with large numbers needing to move out of the middle of the city to more suburban boroughs. Do the Government share this analysis, and is the Minister confident that this displacement will happen smoothly? Or should these authorities be trying urgently to increase the supply of temporary accommodation to meet their statutory responsibilities?

Does the Minister have any confidence that this temporary accommodation will be close to the schools for the children who are affected? Has he seen the article in today's Financial Times, which reports a shortage of 68,000 school places already, half of which are in London? The Government’s impact assessment on their housing benefit changes states:

“Children who experience disruption to their schooling, particularly in the run up to examinations may do less well than pupils who are otherwise similar”.

Is it not the case that unless the Minister is confident that he has enough supply of accommodation to avoid these effects, these poorest children will suffer this damage to their life chances? What is his estimate of the extra cost to families of children travelling long distances to school if they are from those 134,000 displaced households—if Shelter’s figures are correct?

My final question is on the impact on those with disabilities. The Government themselves state that some individuals may have to move out of the local authority area. They will be forced out of homes that have been adapted to meet their needs. Is this group not the most likely to be in need of temporary accommodation because of the need to wait for housing from the limited supply of stock that meets their individual needs to become available? Does the Minister truly have confidence about the supply of temporary accommodation that has the necessary adaptation for these vulnerable people?

I have raised a number of important questions. I know that some of this is complicated as we start to try to understand the consequences of the Government's changes to housing benefit, of which this order is an integral part. I look forward to some answers. I beg to move.

[Lord Best]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Knight, for allowing us a chance to review some of these questions. Perhaps the position can be most simply expressed by recognising that the intention is to reduce the housing benefit bill by some £2.25 billion per annum by the end of this Parliament. That is £2.25 billion a year that will not be paid through housing benefit to landlords. There are only two parties from whom this money can come; one is the landlord by accepting a lower rent, and the other is the tenants by finding the balance from their own resources, including other benefits—since most are on benefits of different sorts, or pensions. Which of these two parties is more likely to take this very substantial £2-and-a-bit billion hit?

The first question is, I suppose, whether people can move to a different place where they can find accommodation for which the rent will be covered in full. The noble Lord, Lord Knight, looked at the numbers that may be involved, and it does not seem likely that if people move from central London they will find vacant properties in cheap areas on the scale that would be required. They are much more likely to have to stay put and face the eviction that may follow if they cannot pay their rent and all the hassle and trouble that that brings simply because there will not be places available in other areas. There are also social and welfare costs for the boroughs into which any large-scale movement of people would go. There are questions about school places and the other facilities that people will need and, if these are the poorest boroughs, the local authorities concerned are the least capable of finding the social and welfare resources to help those people.

Will landlords reduce their rents? Some landlords will reduce rents simply because the market served by local housing allowance claimants is so large that in some areas there will be nowhere else to go. These are areas with a high proportion of people in receipt of local housing allowances. They are areas of the lowest demand and there may be no work for people who move there. However, in great tracts of the country, landlords are not going to reduce their rents. I chair the Property Ombudsman service, which managing agents of private landlords sign up to to handle their complaints, and I have been talking with those agents about how they are approaching this issue. Their advice to their landlords will increasingly be not to let to those on benefit as they will not be able to pay their rent. Quite a few landlords will already not let to people on benefit, and I think it is quite likely that, as agents are telling me, more landlords will not only say that they will not reduce the rent, but that in future they will not have people on local housing allowance in their properties because they suspect that they will get into arrears and difficulties and that it is not worth the hassle. There are plenty of other people to whom those homes can be let, so when a shorthold tenancy expires, the next people will not be on benefit. The outcome will be a reduction in the amount of letting to those on local housing allowance because of the hassles that people are expecting.

This morning, I talked to the person who manages the rent guarantee scheme for a rather smart outer London borough. The local authority has produced a very good scheme that gives landlords a guarantee of the rent, provided they take people on housing benefit. Landlords have resisted taking people on housing benefit in many cases because rent is paid on a four-weekly basis instead of a monthly basis, because arrears may accrue or because the local authority’s administration may mean delays. In order to overcome this reluctance, this local authority and others elsewhere have a rent guarantee scheme so that if the landlord takes these people, the rent is guaranteed. Unfortunately, this officer working in the outer London borough tells me that landlords are already saying that although the borough will guarantee the rent, they will not carry on using the scheme because too many hassles and hazards have been introduced by the prospect of housing benefit cuts. This means that this unfortunate officer in that outer London borough is not able to house the people who he is mandated to look after, because the private sector will turn its back on them wherever it can. I know that in some areas it cannot, where the market is so weighted in favour of those on benefit and where there will have to be rent reductions. The trouble is that it may be found that those rent reductions are taken out on the tenant because the landlord who gets less rent in the lowest areas, where property quality is often lowest, may not put back much into their investment if they are getting a lower income from it. The deterioration of those properties may result from that.

16:45

I fear that the most likely outcome is not that people can move happily to a place where the rents are lower and not, at least in the southern half of this country, that landlords will reduce rents, but rather that tenants in many areas will try desperately to stay put. That is the best option for them, in so many respects, but they will try to find the balance of the rent for the landlord from the very low incomes that they already have from pensions or other benefit sources—and, indeed, from very low wages because, as the noble Lord, Lord Knight, has said, one in eight people on housing benefit is already in work. This adds up to a series of people on the lowest income facing considerable hardship. I hope that the Minister is able to respond with some information on how those problems can be mitigated, if not fully resolved.

[Lord German]

My Lords, I am relatively new to this House; it has been five months now. I mistakenly thought that when a debate is called on a particular order, we debated that order and that if noble Lords wanted to debate another order, they would put a Motion down about it. I was obviously mistaken as it seems to be the way of this House that if you can find one word in the title of the order, you work on that, so I may regard it as a fairly open season. If somebody can explain that method and the way that this House works, I would be pleased to hear it.

It seems to me that we have an order before us which has nothing to do with most of the statements made by the noble Lord, Lord Knight. I understand both the concerns that he wishes to raise and that he wants to talk about the other orders. I wonder why the Motion is therefore not about another order but, be that as it may, I wish to raise one question and one issue about this order and, since it is open season, I would like to make about three or four remarks about the order to which the noble Lord, Lord Knight, has referred.

The first question is about this order. Quite clearly, the burden of applying a new cap on temporary accommodation owned by registered social landlords is going to mean a new burden for them. Social landlords may or may not have to readjust their own rental levels with the people from whom they are actually renting the accommodation in the first place. Has an impact assessment been done of that and do we know whether much work is to be done in that area? If so, how do the Government propose to recompense registered social landlords for the extra work that they have to do? Just as, in its system, if local government is having to do extra work one would expect the extra burdens upon it to be recompensed with some funding, is there an extra burden on registered social landlords as a result of this order and, if there is, how are the Government going to recompense them?

On the other order—to which the noble Lords, Lord Knight and Lord Best, both addressed their remarks, which was perfectly reasonable—I have a couple of remarks and questions about issues that need to be raised. First, the noble Lord, Lord Knight, referred to the Social Security Advisory Committee report: but was it not the case, as I believe, that that report was written in advance of the orders to which he referred being laid? Can the Minister tell us whether they have taken account of the views of the SSAC in the orders that were laid, in which case there is another debate to be had that might be overtaken by the events to which the noble Lord, Lord Knight, referred?

Secondly, is it not a fact that we refer to movement in the private rented sector as being something which, one almost gets the impression, is unusual? However, do the figures not show that 40 per cent of tenants in the private rented sector move within a year? There are reasons for that happening and there is evidence of it. Do they not also show that 70 per cent—a huge number—of all tenants in the private sector move within three years? Therefore, mobility in the private rented sector is not unusual—it happens—and I do not necessarily believe that we should be worried about it if it already happens and is already a feature of that sector.

My second point of concern is that the housing benefit changes are often seen through the prism of London. People understand that there is a particular problem in London, which I admit there is, but it is often viewed as representing what is happening in the whole country. There are many areas in this country where the cap will not impact in the way that it will in London. We need to be careful that we do not see the nature of all change through the prism of London alone. There are specific circumstances in London that need to be adjusted and taken into account, and undoubtedly that is a debate to be moved forward.

The fundamental question, to which the noble Lord, Lord Best, referred, concerns the partnership between those who pay the rent and those who receive it. The question is how those who receive the rent can be incentivised to reduce the amount they charge. That is fundamental because, although an equation has only two sides to it, this one has a third, which is the housing stock and the number of houses that are available for social housing. However, I think that that, too, is the subject of another debate. In the equation between those who pay the rent and those who receive it, how is it intended that landlords be incentivised to move to the new levels that the Government will be providing? Perhaps in his reply the Minister can outline some of the ways in which that might happen. If it does happen, it might take away some of the evidence from those who say that landlords will not alter and will not move.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, given the hour and the potentially challenging journeys that some of us will have in getting home tonight, I intend to speak only briefly, especially as I have an invite this evening to Luton’s Best. It is an award ceremony for community excellence, which shows that we were ahead of the game before David Cameron thought of the big society.

Luton has a direct relevance to this debate—particularly to the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Best—because, taking all these housing benefit changes in aggregate, Luton is being affected at the moment. I am told that there is block-booking of bed and breakfast accommodation in Luton by London boroughs in anticipation of what all these changes will mean, and that has ramifications not only in relation to rent levels locally but in relation to the whole range of services provided by, for example, the local authority. Therefore, I say to the noble Lord, Lord German, that even the cap on its own has a spillover effect on other boroughs. Of course, the cap may be a particular issue for London but the other range of issues—the 30th percentile and the CPI—could also in due course have profound effects right across the country.

I also say to the noble Lord, Lord German, that he was a little harsh on my noble friend Lord Knight, who I thought gave a brilliant speech. He was dealing with the context in which this order has to be applied, and it is affected very profoundly by the new environment in which we find ourselves. This order follows on from one that came into effect in April, introduced by our Government. It related, as we have heard, to changing the basis on which subsidy was paid to local authorities from what was called the threshold and cap system, from which local authorities used to generate good revenues by charging at one level but paying rents at a different level. I have no doubt that those surplus revenues were put to good use, but it is right that that was changed. Moreover, as my noble friend said, the extension of the changed subsidy arrangements to housing association leasing systems is in principle a sensible thing to do.

The Explanatory Note for the order states that,

“some other leased accommodation not currently affected”,

is to be included. I hope that the Minister will be able to say what is encompassed within that. It would also be good to know what the implications of these changes to the subsidy system will mean to the resources of RSLs. I do not think that a detailed impact assessment has been produced, but understanding the impact would be helpful.

We are considering these changes in a substantially changed environment so far as housing benefit is concerned, but I am sure that we will have an opportunity to debate that not only today but on numerous occasions to come. We are dealing with a situation where actual rents are paid by local authorities and are then reimbursed through the subsidy system. I was interested in what the noble Lord, Lord Best, said about the impact of all these housing benefit changes on rent levels. He asked whether they would force rents down in some circumstances or have impacts in other ways. One of the changes to be introduced under the housing benefit changes will be the switch in 2013 to uprate local housing allowances by reference to the consumer prices index rather than, as now, by reference to actual rent movements. That inevitably means that there will be a widening gap between actual rents and local housing allowance levels. If the arrangements proposed in the order are to continue at that time, it means that local authorities may be at risk of having to bear the increased shortfall. The noble Lord, Lord German, asked whether these increased burdens are going to be reimbursed by the Government, which is a highly relevant question. I thought that, so far as local government is concerned, the Government had signed up to fund any increased burdens, so I shall be interested to hear from the Minister on that point.

This is not only a question of the eventual switch to the CPI because the switch to the 30th percentile will lower the housing allowance on which the subsidy is to be paid, even though we are dealing with a situation where it is actual rents that are being disbursed by housing associations or councils. This is yet another example of the Government placing on local authorities the responsibility to deal with what are effectively cuts in the system. In a sense, local authorities are the third party in addition to the two already identified by the noble Lord, Lord Best.

I have one further point. The package of housing benefit cuts and reduced investment in social housing along with cutbacks in support for mortgage interest will inevitably lead to increased homelessness. There is no other conclusion that one could possibly reach. That will lead to greater recourse to temporary and bed and breakfast accommodation, and therefore wider applications of the order before us, along with an increasing share of the costs imposed on local authorities. I want to ask a question on one particular point. One of the recommendations made in the SSAC report was to ensure that definitions of,

“‘intentionally homeless’, and associated guidance, is revised so as to ensure the position of households that fall into arrears because of changes to housing benefit entitlements are not excluded from the scope of the homeless provisions”.

I have not had a chance to peruse this in great depth and thus get behind the recommendation, but if there is a risk of people not being able to continue with their current tenancy because the level of their housing benefit puts it beyond their financial means, one would expect them to fall squarely within the definition of those who are homeless and have to be supported by local authorities.

I shall close with those brief comments, but this is just the start of a long journey of debate we need to have around the whole range of housing benefit regulation changes which I believe are deeply damaging and very misguided.

17:00

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Knight, for asking us to take note. I had to check up on what he was asking us to take note of. I looked at the order of business for the day and discovered that it was the temporary accommodation housing allowance, but I understand that he wants a debate on housing allowances and the Government’s housing policy in general. Fortunately, my noble friend the Minister for Welfare Reform is sitting at my right hand. I know that he is looking forward to engaging in a broader debate with the noble Lord and other noble Lords who have participated in this debate. As was rightly pointed out, this is an important policy area, in which there has been a considerable policy change, and I think that noble Lords will want to be reassured about that.

I think that it would be reasonable if I were to start by addressing the subject on which I swotted up. I am used to having to have a certain amount of agility on my feet, but it is easier to be agile about some things than others. I shall begin by answering a few questions. My noble friend Lord German asked about the SSAC report. We have sought in the new orders to respond to that report and the issues that it raises. There will be a read-across from the report. That will not necessarily satisfy every point, but we have sought to respond. I confirm what he said about mobility issues. It is important to reflect on the fact that, in many cases, mobility is a built-in feature of the housing market. He asked how landlords might be incentivised to adapt to the new market conditions. One of the ways in which that can be done is through direct payments reflecting reduced levels.

The noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, asked what other leased accommodation is included. Leased accommodation in Wales and Scotland is not covered by the current scheme, but it will be included. This is accommodation that is leased for more than 10 years—this is not applicable for English local authorities—within the housing revenue account.

The noble Lord, Lord Knight, asked about the impact of LHA on homelessness; the noble Lord, Lord Best, was concerned about that, too. It is too soon to know how landlords will react to changes affecting local housing allowance rates for people in the private rented sector. However, we expect that many landlords will reduce their rents as a result of the LHA measures. There may be some increase in the number of tenants who need to find alternative accommodation, but that does not necessarily mean that they will experience—I am sorry, but I cannot find what I was looking for. I think that there is a joke about this: “Now you’re on your own”. I shall stop at that point.

The noble Lord, Lord Knight, asked about the impact on children’s schooling. We have discussed the possible impacts of the housing benefit changes with the Department for Education and the devolved Administrations. It is not possible to estimate how many households with children would move or where they would move to. Movement from one authority area to another may be more common in London, but schools in London have surpluses. Data show that 75 per cent of primary schools and 65 per cent of secondary schools in London have surplus places available. A transitional protection period will give parents more time to plan a school move if that is necessary.

The noble Lord, Lord Knight, suggested that discretionary housing payments are insufficient. We have trebled the amount available for DHPs; in addition, we have announced an extra £50 million funding to help local authorities to implement this change. So we are not asking local authorities to absorb all this on their own.

The noble Lord, Lord Knight, asked how LHA reform affected TA. Will customers in temporary accommodation be able to continue meeting their rent when the changes to LHA come into force? The vast majority of households living in temporary or short-term accommodation have as their immediate landlord a registered housing association or local authority. They will not, therefore, be affected by wider changes to housing benefit affecting those in the mainstream private sector.

If I have not covered all the questions that he raised, I shall write to the noble Lord. Indeed, my noble friend is looking forward to engaging on the whole issue of housing allowances at a debate in future.

As for the reforms themselves, this latest subsidy reform will help to control further the level of housing benefit expenditure for people placed into temporary accommodation by their local authority. It will extend the reach of a new subsidy scheme that was introduced in April this year. The intention of these further changes is to create a more level playing field to ensure that funding streams are equalised among different providers of temporary accommodation. First, I would like to acknowledge that the new subsidy scheme for people in temporary accommodation was developed and introduced under the previous Administration. It already appears to be an effective and well planned reform. Given that, I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Knight, will wish to show his support for the latest set of changes, which continue from where his Administration left off.

Local authorities use various types of property to provide households in need with temporary accommodation, including their own stock, hostels and bed and breakfast hotels. However, most temporary accommodation is secured from the private rented sector, through some form of lease or licensing agreement with a private landlord. The order that came into force in April this year affected housing benefit subsidy for cases in private sector leased accommodation, but only those where the local authority is the claimant’s landlord. The changes due to come into force from April 2011, which we are discussing today, will extend the new subsidy rules to cases in leased accommodation where a registered housing association is the claimant’s landlord. These are known as Housing Association Leasing schemes, or HALs.

The main purpose of introducing the new subsidy scheme in temporary accommodation was to encourage more local authorities to charge reasonable rents. This does appear to be happening in many cases. Basically, the old scheme allowed too much subsidy to be paid on some properties because it took no account of their actual size or location. Housing benefit expenditure had increased in this area from around £250 million in 2002-03 to more than £640 million in 2007-08. The rate of increase in costs was unsustainable, and was disproportionate to increases in the case load, which peaked in early 2005 at around 110,000 households in Great Britain.

I should stress that, since then, local authorities have done a lot of good work on homelessness prevention that has helped to bring those numbers down considerably, but, although the temporary accommodation case load has been coming down, expenditure has been going up. In part, that was due to local authorities in London charging inflated rent levels. Those high rents—averaging £300 to £400 plus per week, even on small one or two-bedroom properties in parts of London—could be met by housing benefit, but such rent levels were very likely to deter people from working. The level of worklessness among households in temporary accommodation is high. Independent research published in 2008 suggests that the level is around 64 per cent but is possibly higher in some parts.

In addition, families living in temporary accommodation in London, where most of the case load is concentrated, often remain in such accommodation for lengthy periods. Despite its name, the average period spent in “temporary accommodation” in London is three years. It is clear that unnecessarily high rents, which often attract 100 per cent subsidy, are not good either for households living in temporary accommodation or for the taxpayer.

The new subsidy scheme that came into force in April this year, which is based on local housing allowance rates, ensures that the weekly amount of subsidy payable for these cases is based on market rates in the private rented sector. In other words, the amount of subsidy now relates to the size and location of the property used by the local authority. There are three elements to the subsidy formula: the rental element, which reflects the cost of leasing a property; an amount towards the management costs—the management costs element—involved in running these schemes; and, lastly, two upper cap limits, of £500 for properties in central and inner parts of London and £375 for properties located elsewhere.

For the rental element, we take the local housing allowance rate based on the size and location of the property and remove 10 per cent. The 10 per cent is a notional amount, which is taken off to reflect management costs that have already been factored into market rents. We then add back into the formula one of two separate amounts for the management costs of running private sector leasing schemes, such as maintenance and void costs. The amounts are £40 a week for authorities in London and £60 a week for other authorities. The lower amount for London authorities reflects their ability to achieve economies of scale. The actual amount of subsidy payable is the lowest of: the LHA-formula amount; the customer’s actual HB entitlement, if it is less than that; and the appropriate upper cap limit.

Returning to the rental element, I should advise that the LHA rates used in the formula for this financial year are those that were published in January 2010. Using a static rate provides more funding certainty for local authorities throughout the year. From April next year, the subsidy amounts will be based on the January 2011 LHA rates, which will still be set using the median of rents. Therefore, it is evident that the LHA changes announced in the emergency Budget for private rented sector claimants are entirely separate from the subsidy arrangements for people in temporary accommodation.

One of the key issues surrounding the new subsidy scheme’s introduction this year was whether to include the housing association leasing schemes—HAL schemes—that I mentioned earlier. At the time, there was no evidence of inflated rent levels among those schemes and, in most cases, rents still appear to be staggered appropriately to reflect different property sizes. However, the risk of having different subsidy rates for housing association and local authority-run leased accommodation is that it could lead authorities to shift from one type of scheme to another, depending upon which seems more generous. There would also be greater potential for private landlords to draw authorities and housing associations into procurement bidding contests, which would increase expenditure.

This latest amendment to the subsidy order—the Income-related Benefits (Subsidy to Authorities) (Temporary Accommodation) Amendment Order 2010 (SI 2010/2509), which is the subject of this debate—will extend the new subsidy scheme to include cases in housing association leased accommodation, as well as close off some other potential loopholes. It will ensure that there is no benefit for local authorities in switching between different schemes based on whichever attracts the most subsidy. It will create a level playing field for providers, who often compete to procure properties in similar locations.

17:15

The impact of introducing this measure from April 2011 means that, for existing schemes where leasing fees sit above the new caps, private landlords are likely to be encouraged to accept reduced payments or see their contract wound up. It means that in some cases households might have to move, but the local authority’s duty to continue to provide suitable accommodation will remain unaffected.

We know that renegotiation activities between housing associations and landlords are already under way, and we will monitor this aspect very closely. I mentioned earlier that, from next year, the subsidy formula will use LHA rates. We have said to local authorities that we will stick with these subsidy levels for the next two years, until April 2013. This will provide local authorities and housing associations with certainty over funding for the mid-term and enable them to negotiate with landlords with confidence, helping them to keep costs to a minimum.

I said earlier that expenditure in this area reached £640 million in 2007-08. Initial estimates for this year suggest that the figure will come down to under £500 million—a reduction of almost a quarter. We have some evidence that many rents have started to come down, particularly for smaller properties in London. We will continue to monitor the impact of the changes closely, and we are looking already at possible subsidy arrangements from April 2013 onwards.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

My Lords, I am most grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in what has been a helpful debate. I am also grateful for the support that I have had from Shelter and the Chartered Institute of Housing. I am mindful of the challenging journey to Luton that awaits my noble friend Lord McKenzie and I wish him success in it, so I shall be brief. I simply say to the noble Lord, Lord German, and others who were worried that I might have strayed slightly from the job in hand, that I had a call from the office of the noble Lord, Lord Freud, to ask what my interest was. I said that I was interested more in the context than in the detail of the order, so I hope that what I have said today was no great surprise. We shall come back to the substance of these issues, on which I look forward to debate with noble Lord, Lord Freud. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Taylor of Holbeach, for being able after a very long and arduous week to give us a very useful explanation of the order.

Motion agreed.

House adjourned at 5.18 pm.