Winter Fuel Payment
Torsten Bell Excerpts(1 week, 2 days ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Torsten Bell)
I listened closely to those remarks but am still none the wiser as to whether the Conservative party is committed to reversing the changes to the winter fuel payment. I am grateful for the opportunity to have this debate. The changes to the winter fuel payment have been much discussed and debated many times by hon. Members in this place. Governments make decisions and, rightly, they are held accountable for them in this place, especially when those decisions affect pensioners, whom we all want to support. This Government have made, and will continue to make, responsible choices in our management of the public finances, but also in ensuring that we deliver on what matters most.
Wendy Morton (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con)
How on earth can the Minister say to a pensioner that he has made a responsible decision, when that pensioner is sitting at home worried about whether they dare turn up the heating when they are cold, because they cannot afford it?
Torsten Bell
I was coming to the exact answer to that: responsible choices are how we can ensure that we deliver what matters most to pensioners: a rising state pension and rescuing an NHS that was collapsing on the right hon. Lady’s watch. That means we will make choices that may not always be easy—I recognise the strength of feeling on this issue in this place—but are necessary. Everyone in this House knows the economic and fiscal context.
Mr Jonathan Brash (Hartlepool) (Lab)
In Hartlepool we have taken a proactive approach over this issue. Since October I have been working with Hartlepool citizens advice bureau to help pensioners get the support that they deserve. The campaign ends next week, but as of today we have managed to raise £885,900 of additional annual income by ensuring that pensioners get the benefits to which they are entitled. Will the Minister congratulate Hartlepool citizens advice bureau on its extraordinary work?
Torsten Bell
I congratulate it and I thank my hon. Friend, and probably hon. Members on both sides of the House, who I am sure have engaged with local charities in supporting their pensioners in the months that have gone by.
Saqib Bhatti (Meriden and Solihull East) (Con)
The Minister is being generous in giving way, and I am sure that he will continue to be. He talked about making responsible choices. According to Government analysis, 100,000 pensioners are being pushed into poverty. Is that a responsible choice?
Torsten Bell
The poverty assessment, which we provided to the Work and Pensions Committee, does not take into account any increase in pension credit take-up, which I will come to shortly. The shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Faversham and Mid Kent (Helen Whately), talked about absolute pensioner poverty—the kind of poverty that should be falling every year as an economy grows. But relative poverty—a form of poverty that we look at—rose under the last Administration. Opposition Members may not like to hear this, but relative pensioner poverty rose by 300,000 under the last Government. I just gently say that when it comes to pensioner poverty, we have more to do—I take the hon. Gentleman’s point seriously—but the record of recent years is not one of success on that front.
Everyone in this House knows the economic and fiscal context—the economic stagnation of the past decade, visible in flatlining wages, collapsing public services and strained public finances. Every economist and every person in the country knows that Britain has lived through an unprecedented economic failure. In a challenging fiscal environment, difficult choices are unavoidable. The Government have set fiscal rules and we will stick to them. But, as some older Members may remember, prudence is for a purpose: to support a growing economy that benefits everyone. It is the prerequisite for rescuing our public services and rising living standards for workers, but also for pensioners.
Suella Braverman (Fareham and Waterlooville) (Con)
In my constituency, even after taking into account pension credit, 20,000 pensioners will lose out from the Government’s cuts. Maggie from Waterlooville wrote to me to say:
“We have cut back on heating, we are both in our seventies and we both feel the cold.”
How on earth does the Minister justify that as a responsible choice? How on earth will forcing pensioners into pneumonia or influenza help the NHS? How on earth can the Minister come here and justify treating hard-working pensioners with such disdain?
Torsten Bell
I do not think that anybody in the House is going to be treating pensioners with disdain. That is why the state pension will rise by 4.1% in April, why we have put £26 billion into the NHS and why we intend to learn the lessons of the last Administration’s failure to cut pensioner poverty. [Interruption.] I have already taken quite a few interventions, so I will make some progress.
As hon. Members know, winter fuel payments are now targeted at lower-income pensioners. The benefit is paid to over a million households who are receiving pension credit in England and Wales or on other income-related benefits. Pensioners in receipt of attendance allowance or disability living allowance can also qualify for pension credit. Crucially, those benefits do not reduce the pension credit award and can mean receiving additional support.
I am sure that we all want to see every pensioner get the support they are entitled to, but in recent years far too many pensioners have missed out, with over a third of eligible pensioners not claiming. So since September, we have been running the biggest ever pension credit take-up campaign, building on campaigns run by the previous Government, as the shadow Secretary of State mentioned. The campaign has included adverts on television, radio, social media and advertising screens in GPs’ surgeries. We have engaged with a wide range of stakeholders and partners including local councils, community groups and charities. I have certainly done that in Swansea, as I am sure hon. Members across the House have done in their constituencies.
Wendy Morton
The Minister is being generous in giving way. I welcome the fact that the Government have done work to raise awareness of pension credit, just as we did when we were in government, but that does not really reach the group of hard-working pensioners who are too proud to come forward and apply for pension credit; it is just not what they would do. The £300 winter fuel allowance was a lifeline that they have now lost.
Torsten Bell
The right hon. Lady makes a fair point. I will come back to what more work we need to do to understand the barriers to people applying for pension credit. Research shows, though, that awareness is the biggest barrier. We need to keep breaking down those barriers, but I recognise the point she makes.
Melanie Ward (Cowdenbeath and Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Does the Minister agree that it is extraordinary to be lectured about responsible choices by members of the last Cabinet, whose irresponsible financial choices left this Government with a £22 billion black hole? We have to clean that up because of their irresponsible financial management.
Torsten Bell
My hon. Friend proves that, while Conservative Members may be disappointed by the quantity of hon. Members behind me, that is definitely made up for in quality.
Torsten Bell
I will make some progress, because otherwise we will be here for several days.
I take this opportunity to thank each and every organisation that supported the pension credit take-up campaign, as well as the many friends, neighbours and family members who looked out for pensioners and helped them to claim. A few weeks ago, we released the first data on the impact that the campaign has had. We have seen 235,000 pension credit applications in the 30 weeks since July, which is an 81% increase on the comparable period in 2022-23. On the question about processing rates, with over 500 additional staff allocated directly for that, we have seen a similar rise in the number of claims processed. Most importantly, that has led to almost 50,000 extra awards compared with the same period last year.
Mr Joshua Reynolds (Maidenhead) (LD)
What would the Minister say to residents in Maidenhead who have told me that they are not eligible for pension credit? He talks about responsible choices, but the choice those residents now have to make is whether to dip into their savings to pay for their energy bills or to turn off their heating at night. A Labour voter contacted me who had had to make exactly that decision, and she said that she will never vote Labour again. Is that really the change that the Government were elected to introduce?
Torsten Bell
No, the change that we were elected to introduce was to save our NHS and to return our economy to growth so that we can raise living standards for pensioners and for workers right across the country. That is the change that we were elected to deliver and that is what we are going to do.
Dr Murrison
The Minister is being generous in giving way; congratulations to him on making the best of a bad job. He knows that old people die in cold homes. In 2017, the Labour party did some research on which to attack the Conservatives, which showed that 4,000 old people would probably die in the event that we removed winter fuel allowance; we did not do that. I wonder whether he got his officials to repeat that research and, if so, what it showed.
Torsten Bell
All of us in this place should be slightly careful when talking about what is a highly sensitive subject. There is not robust analysis that can separate out different causes of excess mortality over the winter. [Interruption.] I will come on to answer the right hon. Gentleman’s question. If we look at the excess mortality data for this winter, we see that deaths are actually down. It is hard to separate out the effects of different measures—[Interruption.] No, this is an important point, because some hon. Members have been looser with their language than they might have wanted to be in past debates. We have seen the level of deaths come down this winter. There are lots of things—
Several hon. Members rose—
Dr Evans
I am terribly grateful to the Minister. He made the point about there being 235,000 applications, which was great. In my written question, I asked about that and he came back and said 117,800 claims were awarded, but 114,500 were not. Those were clearly people who felt they were entitled to pension credit but who will now struggle. What support is available for those people, who are clearly right on the cusp and are now not eligible and do not have pension credit?
Torsten Bell
The hon. Member makes an important point. We should encourage people to apply, even if a percentage of those will always not qualify. The criteria under which people have been assessed are those put in place by the previous Administration for pension credit. However, he is right; we want as many people as possible to apply, even if some of them are not successful, for exactly the reason raised by the right hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton)—we need awareness of pension credit to be higher and we need to encourage claims, because a lot of people who are entitled are missing out. It is not always absolutely clear whether someone is entitled, for example if they are in receipt of attendance allowance.
All the progress since September that I have spoken about is a real achievement, but I am the first to say very clearly that it is far from job done. Far too many people are still missing out on pension credit. We are already building on this winter’s campaign, and that includes writing to all pensioners who make a new claim for housing benefit and who appear to be entitled to pension credit. In the longer term, this Government are committed to bringing together the administration of pension credit and housing benefit, making it easier for pensioners to get support. That was also a policy of previous Administrations at different times, even if delivering it was not prioritised.
We will also undertake new research on what helps boost take-up—that goes to the question asked by the right hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills. There is a slight misunderstanding about people wanting to apply but being reluctant—the evidence does not support that significantly. The key problem is awareness of the system.
Sir Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford and Woodford Green) (Con)
The Treasury always says to every new Government, “We have this jolly good idea. Just get rid of the winter fuel payment and save yourselves a lot of money.” We looked at that when I was in the Department and eventually rejected it based on two elements of the impact assessment. First, there was the point about those who were right on the cusp of poverty—80% of them, as has been mentioned, will be damaged by the policy. Secondly, there is pension credit take-up. We get hammered either way, because if we push for pensioners to take up pension credit, the savings are lost and we spend more, but if they do not take it up, they end up in poverty. That was why we rejected the idea and, I think, every other Government up until now have too. Will the Minister have another review of that and ask his team at the DWP whether they should reject this policy now, because it will not work?
Torsten Bell
On the question of savings, this measure will make savings, even taking into account the increase in take-up; the evidence of that is very clear. I will also just reflect on the right hon. Gentleman’s point that his party’s Government did not take up the opportunity that the Treasury presented to means-test winter fuel payments. The truth is that the last Government and the new Labour regime before that allowed pension credit to be eroded year after year by inflation. Since the period when he considered the measure, there has been over 50% inflation erosion, so the policy of the previous Government was to cut the winter fuel payment year after year. In real terms, I am afraid that is how inflation operates.
We will not just carry out research; we will put the evidence that it provides into practice. I welcome suggestions from right across the House on what more we can do to drive take-up of pension credit.
Richard Foord (Honiton and Sidmouth) (LD)
My point relates to the cliff edge. Anne Addis from Cullompton is a 76-year-old widow. Her late husband’s Army pension pushed her just £15 over the pension credit threshold. That means that she is one of 130,000 people who are worse off than those on lower incomes who continue to qualify for pension credit. Will the Minister consider introducing a taper to get rid of that cliff edge?
Torsten Bell
We have all met constituents who raise this issue, and the hon. Member is right to say that there are challenges with the cliff edge. It is in the nature of the pension credit regime, because the regime is about a minimum income guarantee. People sometimes think about it as if it had a threshold, but it is about providing minimum guarantee of minimum income, so I do not think that that is an appropriate way forward, but I would be happy to discuss this with him, as it is always useful to discuss these issues.
Mark Pritchard
Does the Minister agree with the Resolution Foundation, which I think he knows very well, and its enlightening paper “Public Pivot” from January this year, which talks about big implications for living standards? He may well know that document, although he did not actually write that one, for a change. It mentions the winter fuel allowance and states:
“Tax rises on top of lacklustre economic growth make for a gloomy living standards outlook in 2025.”
Is there not a direct correlation between living standards and this cruel cut to the most vulnerable in our society, whether in Swansea West or in the Wrekin in Shropshire?
Torsten Bell
I thank the right hon. Member, not least for his kind words about a very impressive organisation that goes from strength to strength under far better leadership than it had in the past.
I do not want to get into the details of economic forecasts and living standards forecasts—[Interruption.] “Please do”, Members say. Right—the reason why forecasts of living standards and of growth are often lower than we might like at the moment is that, although we talk about forecasts as forward-looking measures, what they are often actually doing is looking backwards at the disastrous growth this country has seen—[Interruption.] Those are the facts about what is actually going on. The only way we are going to sort this country out is to get growth going once again, and that is what this Government are trying to do—[Interruption.] Well, we actually are. We are currently seeing significantly faster wage growth than we have seen for quite some time.
Several hon. Members rose—
Torsten Bell
I must make some progress. I have taken lots of interventions, and at some point even your patience may start to run out, Madam Deputy Speaker.
As hon. Members know, wider help is also available for pensioners. The warm home discount provides eligible low-income households across Great Britain with a £150 rebate on their winter energy bill. This winter we expect to find that over 3 million households, including over 1 million pensioners, have benefited. We have also set out plans to expand the scheme to cover a further 2.7 million households. We are providing £742 million in England to extend the household support fund for a further year, supporting all households, not just pensioners, with the cost of essentials. The devolved Governments will receive consequential funding through the Barnett formula.
Sarah Dyke (Glastonbury and Somerton) (LD)
Around 40% of properties in Glastonbury and Somerton are not connected to the gas grid. They are more expensive to heat, and people experience more fuel poverty as a result. Off-grid pensioners, who are particularly suffering, are obviously more reliant on their winter fuel payment. Will the Minister commit to developing a rural winter fuel poverty strategy for those pensioners, who are suffering now?
Torsten Bell
I have heard from many Members the point the hon. Member makes about the different ways people heat homes, particularly in certain parts of the country, including Northern Ireland. I would be happy to talk to her about that specific suggestion, having asked for suggestions earlier.
As I said earlier, our top priorities are to raise the state pension and to rescue the NHS, which pensioners in particular rely on. It is precisely because the Government have taken some difficult choices that we are committed to delivering on the triple lock throughout this Parliament. It is true that targeting winter fuel payments saves a bit over £1 billion a year, but spending on the state pension is forecast to rise by over £31 billion—
Torsten Bell
I have already engaged with the right hon. Member.
Spending on the state pension is forecast to rise by over £31 billion during this Parliament, which puts that into context. What does this mean for individual pensioners? The full new state pension is expected to rise by around £1,900 a year, and the basic state pension by around £1,500, benefiting over 12 million pensioners.
Then there is the health service, the state of which is the biggest betrayal of older generations today. The Conservatives left pensioners far too often not receiving the care and support they deserve and need. We are investing and reforming the English NHS through the 10-year plan by abolishing NHS England so Ministers are accountable for the health service once again. For pensioners who have spent their lives paying into the system, our priority is to ensure a resilient NHS that gives back to them at a time when they need it most.
James Wild
During the general election campaign, we on the Conservative side had the triple lock-plus policy to prevent pensioners in receipt of just a state pension from paying income tax. Does the Minister recognise that millions of pensioners in that position will have to start paying income tax, and is he happy with that?
Torsten Bell
The vast majority of pensioners started paying income tax under the previous Government because they abolished the age-related allowance for pensioners, so the taxing of pensioners was a decision taken by the previous Government. The majority of pensioners pay income tax because of decisions taken by the previous Government.
This is an Opposition day, so it would be rude not to talk about the Opposition. It is hard to know where to start—maybe with the hypocrisy. It comes in the general form of many Opposition Members claiming that they are in favour of a smaller state, but opposing this targeting of winter fuel payments. Worse, there is the more specific hypocrisy of campaigning against this change, but not being honest about whether they would reverse it.
Torsten Bell
I will if the hon. Member will tell me whether he plans to reverse that change in government.
Lewis Cocking
Does the Minister not agree that it is the hypocrisy from the Labour party, which did not include this policy in its manifesto at the general election?
Torsten Bell
While we are on broken promises, the hon. Member promised to tell me whether the Tory party policy is to reverse the change, and I have heard nothing on that front. I will come on to manifestos shortly.
There is the specific hypocrisy of the Opposition campaigning against the change having called for it in their own 2017 election manifesto. Back then, they attacked the winter fuel payment for being “paid regardless of need”, and that is before we get to the Leader of the Opposition’s bold plans to means-test the state pension—
Dame Harriett Baldwin
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. The Minister has just said that, as it is an Opposition day debate, he will speak exclusively about what the Opposition think and say. Is it your understanding, Madam Deputy Speaker, that it is in order for a Minister at the Dispatch Box not to defend the track record of his own Government?
Torsten Bell
I will return to the Conservatives’ policy, because I was just coming to the bold plans set out by the Leader of the Opposition to means-test the state pension. Apparently, she said,
“that’s exactly the sort of thing”
we “will look at.”
Several hon. Members rose—
Torsten Bell
No. Apparently, means-testing the winter fuel payment is beyond the pale, but means-testing the state pension—the bedrock of pensioners’ incomes—is the future. The Leader of the Opposition’s self-image is of a bold iconoclast, but means-testing the state pension is not bold; it is bonkers. Never mind what the Conservatives say they would do now, what about what they actually did? Let’s talk about pensioner poverty.
Torsten Bell
I will not. Pensioner poverty halved under the last Labour Government, but the Conservatives’ record was higher pensioner poverty—an increase of 300,000 people on their watch. We are not pretending that all the problems facing the country can be solved overnight, but we are honest that unless we tackle the big challenges and take some tough choices, they will not be solved at all. This is a Government raising the state pension, rescuing the NHS and delivering for pensioners every single day.
Oral Answers to Questions
Torsten Bell Excerpts(1 week, 4 days ago)
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Vikki Slade (Mid Dorset and North Poole) (LD)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Torsten Bell)
This Government have been running the biggest ever pension credit take-up campaign. In the latest stage, we are now writing to all pensioners who make a new housing benefit claim and who appear to be entitled to pension credit, directly targeting them and encouraging them to apply.
Vikki Slade
The rate of take-up for pension credit has traditionally been between 60% and 65%. If that rate were uplifted, it could take 400,000 people out of income poverty. In Dorset, the number of over-65s has increased by about 20% over the past decade. People say that their biggest concern is the paperwork they have to complete. The applications contain up to 225 questions purely for pension credit, and many pensioners would easily be able to claim for things like the carer addition through a slight tweak in the paperwork. What is the Department doing to simplify and combine those applications to make life easier for pensioners?
Torsten Bell
We are already doing a lot to simplify the process; it now takes 16 minutes on average to complete an online form, and 90% of people apply online or over the phone. However, the hon. Lady is completely right to highlight the fact that we must do more, including by simplifying the form. We continue to keep that under review, and I am always interested in ideas about how we can go further.
Danny Kruger (East Wiltshire) (Con)
When the Government scrapped universal entitlement to the winter fuel payment, they said that all 880,000 people eligible for it would get it through pension credit. We now know that that did not happen; they have got fewer than 120,000 new pensioners enrolled. More than three quarters of a million of the poorest pensioners have missed out on vital support this winter, so will the Minister tell us whether that was the plan all along—to save money at the expense of the poorest pensioners—or will he admit that he has completely failed in his duty towards the poorest elderly people in our society?
Torsten Bell
The lesson I have learned is from the last Government, who put up pensioner poverty year after year—it increased by 300,000 over the course of the last Government. This Government have run a pension credit take-up campaign that has seen an 81% increase in applications since July compared with the same period last year, and 46,000 more awards compared with that period. That is what a Government doing their job looks like.
Danny Kruger
That is 45,000 more awards than in the same period last year, but 880,000 people are eligible—that is a pathetic achievement, and the Government have spent millions of pounds on advertising this. We still have thousands of people waiting for their winter fuel payment, and the winter is over, so it is a little late for the Government’s next advertising plan. The fact is that we still do not know who has missed out, what the waiting time for those payments was, and what the effects have been on pensioner poverty or on hospital admissions, which have increased significantly for pensioners. Given the scandalous failure of their pension credit campaign, will the Government release all available data on the impact of the winter fuel payment cut?
Torsten Bell
We have already released significant data on that and, as I say, data was released just weeks ago showing the unparalleled success of the campaign to drive up pension credit take-up. Now we are concentrating on increasing support for pensioners right across the board, because the biggest disgrace of the last Government was where they left the health service that our older generations rely on. We are turning that around, day after day.
Luke Akehurst (North Durham) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Torsten Bell)
Our commitment to the triple lock throughout this Parliament means that spending on the state pension is set to rise by £31 billion a year. Individuals are set to see increases of up to £1,900 a year, benefiting 21,000 pensioners in North Durham and 12 million people in Britain as a whole.
Luke Akehurst
I welcome the fact that the Government are not only protecting the triple lock for every pensioner in the country but tackling the biggest problems for pensioners by uprating pension credit by more than the rate of inflation, encouraging a higher take-up of pension credit and substantially increasing funding for our NHS. Can the Minister tell me how many pensioners in North Durham currently claim pension credit, and how many are entitled to it but do not claim it and could benefit from this increase?
Torsten Bell
My hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the importance of the 4.1% increase in pension credit that will take place in just a few weeks’ time, and I can tell him that about 3,000 people are claiming pension credit in North Durham. He is also right to mention the more than £25 billion that the Government are investing in the NHS. The unacceptable state of the health service is the biggest betrayal of older generations by the Conservative party, and we are going to change that.
Gareth Snell (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab/Co-op)
Dr Simon Opher (Stroud) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Torsten Bell)
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to highlight both the progress that has been made and the hard work of the voluntary sector, including citizens advice bureaux across the country. We must continue recent progress, and we shall certainly do so. I would like to highlight that our support for pensioners goes far wider, including the 4.1% increase to the state pension and to the level of pension credit, as my hon. Friend mentioned, in just a few weeks’ time.
Julia Lopez (Hornchurch and Upminster) (Con)
At a constituency meeting last week, I was told that small businesses are starting to ask employees to go self-employed as they cannot otherwise keep roles open because of forthcoming national insurance contribution rises and extra employment laws. Will the Department watch out for this trend in its data, in case it was not the Government’s intention to make workers less secure with these new taxes and more regulations?
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
What is the Minister’s estimate for the number of pensioners who would qualify for pension credit but have not applied in North Durham?
Torsten Bell
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his question. The Department for Work and Pensions does not produce data at a constituency level, but I will tell him the answer to his question at a national level: much lower than it was before this Government came into office.
Perran Moon (Camborne and Redruth) (Lab)
Supporting people back into work is not only the right thing to do for the UK economy, but the fair and compassionate thing to do for people stuck in the welfare system. However, over the past few days, a significant number of people have contacted my constituency office with profound concerns about what they have heard and read in the press. Does the Minister agree that by removing the culture of fear and creating a nurturing environment, we can help people back into work and give them the support they need not just to survive but to thrive?
Women’s Changed State Pension Age: Compensation
Torsten Bell Excerpts(1 week, 4 days ago)
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The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Torsten Bell)
It is a pleasure to serve under you today, Mr Stringer, and I thank the hon. Member for South Cotswolds (Dr Savage) for leading today’s debate on behalf of the Petitions Committee. I look forward to hearing her closing remarks.
Questions about when each of us can draw our pension are hugely important and so are related questions about how we spend our latter years, including when we can retire. Therefore, it not surprising that this petition has garnered so many signatures, nor that this debate has brought so many spectators and hon. Members to Westminster Hall today. Of course, none of us needs to come here to have those conversations. We have them every week precisely because they matter so much.
I have declared an interest on this issue before: my aunt in Aberystwyth sees herself as a WASPI woman. Just two weeks ago, I met Georgina Kettleborough at Burlais primary school. She has supported children for over three decades in the canteen and throughout the school and is about to retire at the age of 69. I hope we can all join in congratulating her on that milestone, as we join my hon. Friend the Member for Hartlepool (Mr Brash) in congratulating his mother on her birthday.
Georgina’s retirement comes several years after she was entitled to her state pension because working in the school is such a big part of her life. People will not be surprised to know, however, that she would have preferred to receive her pension earlier. Everyone will understand that. Who would not feel that way—especially women from a generation that suffered such significant disadvantage in the labour market and elsewhere, as the hon. Members for Moray West, Nairn and Strathspey (Graham Leadbitter) and for North East Hampshire (Alex Brewer) spelled out?
However, the ombudsman did not investigate the decision of the Conservative Government to increase the state pension age for women in 1995 or that of the Conservative and Liberal Democrat coalition Government to accelerate those increases in 2011. I make that point because several hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Normanton and Hemsworth (Jon Trickett), have referred to the desirability of those original decisions. That is not to downplay the significance of those decisions —far from it. SPA equalisation was a very large and important change, and the acceleration was opposed by my party for the reasons set out by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow West (Patricia Ferguson). But the ombudsman did not investigate the legality or merits of those decisions. Instead—I should note that the WASPI campaign is clear on this point—the sole focus was on how those changes were communicated by the Department for Work and Pensions.
The ombudsman looked at six cases that it said reflected the range of issues and the injustices raised. It concluded that the DWP provided adequate and accurate information on changes to the state pension age between 1995 and 2004. However, it also found that decisions made between 2005 and 2007 led to a 28-month delay in sending out letters to women born in the 1950s. The ombudsman says that those delays were maladministration, as almost every hon. Member who spoke today reiterated.
We respect the work of the ombudsman, its independence and the work it does, a point many hon. Members have raised. In this case, we agree that the letters should have been sent sooner. We have apologised and we will learn the lessons. However, as everyone in this room is well aware, we do not agree with the ombudsman’s approach to injustice or remedy. Many hon. Members have asked whether that invalidates the role of the ombudsman, including my hon. Friend the Member for Salford (Rebecca Long Bailey). My strong view is that it does not. It is, rightly, rare, but not unprecedented, for a Government to take that view.
Two important considerations when making that decision were that the evidence shows that sending people unsolicited letters can be ineffective, which is why it is part of a wider communication campaign on every issue where it is used today, and that the majority of 1950s-born women were aware of the fact that the state pension age was changing, if not of their specific state pension age. The ombudsman assumed that sending letters earlier would have changed what women knew and how they acted.
Seamus Logan
Can the Minister explain his assertion that the majority of women were aware of these changes?
Torsten Bell
I will come to exactly that point shortly.
The 2014 research was not properly considered by the ombudsman. The same research is now the subject of live litigation, as my hon. Friend the Member for Bradford East (Imran Hussain) noted. In addition, there was considerable awareness that the state pension age was increasing. Research from 2004 used by the ombudsman shows that 73% of people then aged 45 to 54 were aware that the state pension age was going up. Further research from 2006 reinforced that finding and was given to and used by the ombudsman. The hon. Member for Eastleigh (Liz Jarvis) focused on the widely used 43% figure, but that figure refers to all women, including some aged 16 at the time of the survey, not just those who were affected by the state pension age changes.
Christine Jardine
I take on board what the Minister says about the research, but the fact that 73% of people knew that there were would be changes to the pension age does not tell us that 73% of women, or any percentage, knew that it would affect them. That is not what the evidence tells us.
Torsten Bell
The fact that people were widely aware that the state pension age was rising is indicative that it was not news to most people, even if they had not got the details on their specific circumstances. The 2006 research is now also the subject of live litigation, so I will resist the temptation to dive into the details, beyond directly addressing the point raised by the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire North and Moray East (Seamus Logan) on the sample sized used in that survey. Returning to my old expertise in this area, the confidence intervals provided in that survey are certainly small enough to make it clear that a clear majority were aware that the state pension age was changing, so I do not think it is right to cast aspersions on that survey.
Rebecca Long Bailey
One of the datasets that the Government rely on to make their assertions, specifically the 90% figure, actually includes women who were not born in the 1950s. Can the Minister give us an exact figure as to how many women in that 90% category responded to the survey?
Torsten Bell
The 90% figure refers to the age group that best overlaps with women born in the 1950s, so that is the best available figure from that survey.
Torsten Bell
I will make some progress because I have given the best answer that I can to my hon. Friend’s question.
The ombudsman is clear that redress and compensation should normally reflect individual impact, but it also acknowledges the challenges of assessing the individual circumstances of 3.5 million women, as recognised by the hon. Member for East Wiltshire (Danny Kruger) a few moments ago. It took the ombudsman nearly six years to look at just six cases; doing so for millions would take years and thousands of DWP staff.
In answer my hon. Friend the Member for Bedford (Mohammad Yasin), we considered a range of compensation options for women who lost opportunities as a result of the delay in sending letters. For example, we considered rules-based schemes, such as that which the Work and Pensions Committee suggested, and we also considered the possibility of paying limited compensation to a smaller group of women—for example, those on pension credit, as suggested by the hon. Member for Eastleigh.
However, many of those schemes would mean compensating women who were aware that the state pension age was increasing. Payments would not relate directly to the injustice in question but to benefit entitlement or the timeline for the policy change. Paying a flat rate to all 3.5 million women, regardless of whether they suffered injustice, would be neither fair nor proportionate. It would also not be affordable, as such compensation schemes would cost up to £10.5 billion. To directly address the question of my hon. Friend the Member for Falkirk (Euan Stainbank), the Government’s decision was not driven purely by cost.
Andy McDonald
The Minister has listed a whole host of alternatives, but is it fair to ignore the ombudsman’s clear conclusion that compensation ought to be paid? Is it fair to do nothing?
Torsten Bell
The Government have not ignored the ombudsman’s report or its judgment. We have just come to a different conclusion for the detailed reasons—[Interruption.] I appreciate that I am not going to persuade many Members in the Chamber for the very reason that they have chosen to come today, but on the direct question asked by my hon. Friend, the Government did not ignore the ombudsman’s report. We have come to a different view for the reasons that I have set out, on the basis of the research that I have mentioned.
I have set out the grounds for the Government’s decision. I appreciate that none of that is likely to change the minds of many Members here, or of the campaigners whose tenacity no one disputes, and to which the hon. Member for Torbay (Steve Darling) paid tribute. I fully recognise the challenges that this cohort of women have faced: working hard in sexist workplaces and often balancing that with raising a family. We have a responsibility to listen to their concerns. That is why my predecessor, my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Emma Reynolds), was the first Minister in eight years to meet the WASPI campaign.
Steve Darling
Has the Minister had a conversation with the ombudsman on what a just compensation system would look like?
Torsten Bell
My predecessor, who I just mentioned, did meet the ombudsman prior to the decision being announced by the Government. Parliament has been very engaged in this issue, as demonstrated today and in January’s debate led by the right hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Sir John Hayes). The Government have made their decision and it is right that hon. Members hold us accountable for it, as they have done powerfully today.
Jim Shannon
The judicial review is pending. It is like the sword of Damocles hanging over the head of the Government. Does the Minister fear the judicial review that will, perhaps, force the Government to give WASPI women the compensation and justice they deserve?
Torsten Bell
I thank the hon. Gentleman, but I suspect that was a statement rather than a question. He knows that the Government will not comment on a live litigation. In answer to questions asked by other Members, I will, of course, be happy to meet with the chairs of the APPG, subject to the constraints of that live legal case. As a Department, we must and will learn the lessons from this case.
Christine Jardine
The Minister says that the Department will learn the lessons of this case. Does he accept that the whole point of this debate was not, as he said, to change the minds of Members who have spoken or the women who have come to watch the debate, but to change the mind of the Government? That is the lesson we would like him to learn.
Torsten Bell
I fully understand the motivation of those who have come here today. Members are not just keeping their constituents happy in making their cases, but I have set out why the Government have come to a different view. That is the nature of a Government making a decision and then rightly being held to account for it. That is what hon. Members have done today and what I have endeavoured to engage in, which I think is the right way forward.
Independent Schools: VAT and Business Rates Relief
Torsten Bell Excerpts(3 weeks, 4 days ago)
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The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Torsten Bell)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairship, Mrs Lewell-Buck, for this debate secured not by an hon. Member, as is often the case, but by public petitioners, including some who are present in the Public Gallery. The public paying attention to an issue is good grounds for it being debated. I also thank the hon. Member for Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk (John Lamont) for introducing the debate—also, for closing it shortly—and all hon. Members who have spoken during it.
There are lots of things that are not common ground on this issue, as I will come on to, but I will start by noting that we are all motivated by the same determination to support the aspirations of every parent in the UK to get the best education for their children. In that context, we should all congratulate the hon. Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) on her good news and agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing Central and Acton (Dr Huq) that we all know people who have made a wide range of decisions about the educational choices for their children and that no one here is judging other parents’ choices.
The best education for children is also what motivates the Government to break down barriers to opportunity to ensure that every child has access to high-quality education—and every child includes the 94% of children who attend state schools. The reforms to VAT and business rates that we are debating will raise about £1.8 billion a year; I will come on to the questions about the costing shortly. That will help to improve state education.
In the autumn Budget, the Government announced a £2.3 billion increase to the core schools budget, and it is to deliver such commitments—not for any other purpose—that we have made the tough but necessary decisions that we are debating today. The hon. Member for Harborough, Oadby and Wigston (Neil O’Brien) called for even larger increases in spending on schools, but it was noteworthy that he did not set out the means by which such increases would be paid for.
I will briefly outline the policy changes that the Government are making, before turning to the important issues that hon. Members have raised during the debate. Since 1 January, education services provided by private schools have been subject to VAT. While private schools are now required to charge VAT, they are also able, as has been discussed, to recover the VAT that they incur when purchasing goods and services. The Government are also legislating to remove the eligibility for charitable rate relief from private schools that are charities in England. This is intended to take effect in England from April; it is already the case in Scotland and is being taken forward in Wales.
As I have said, the goal of those changes is to provide additional funding for the state education sector. However, I fully recognise that they will increase the cost for some parents and carers who have chosen a private education for their children. This change is necessary, but I am not hiding from the reality that any rise in costs is unwelcome for those affected by them.
Gregory Stafford
We disagree on whether this change is going to raise any money. However, I want to understand the policy point being made here, namely that to raise the money to fund the state education sector, the Government have decided to raise tax on the independent education sector. Why did they decide to raise money from the education sector rather than from any other sector, or from any other rich individuals?
Torsten Bell
I thank the hon. Member for his intervention. I might be a bit more sympathetic to Conservative Members focusing on this change if I saw them supporting any of the revenue measures that we have had to take to start turning around public services and improving the public finances. They oppose this measure, they oppose changes on national insurance, and they oppose cuts to the winter fuel payment and the rest. Now, I will make some progress.
On the timing of implementation, as my hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Alison Taylor) pointed out, this change was clearly signposted in Labour’s manifesto. Also, His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs is working hard to support schools through this change by providing bespoke support to schools alongside comprehensive guidance on how they can register for VAT. A dedicated mailbox for queries has also been made available to schools and their tax representatives.
Several hon. Members have discussed the impact that the changes will have on pupils and their families, and on state schools and private schools more widely. Many Members have understandably returned to questions that were addressed in the tax information and impact note, or to the Government’s response to the consultation that was conducted between July and September last year.
The issue of costings was raised by the hon. Member for Boston and Skegness (Richard Tice). The underlying methodologies used were certified by the independent Office for Budget Responsibility, and the costings take into account exactly the issues that he raised about behavioural responses.
On the issue of pupils moving schools or sectors, we recognise that there will be some movement of that kind. However, we believe that the number of students who will switch to the state sector represents less than 0.5% of all UK state pupils, so we are confident that the state sector will be able to accommodate any change.
The hon. Member for Farnham and Bordon (Gregory Stafford) raised the issue of school closures. The evidence suggests that around 50 private schools close each year during normal business. Although we would expect some additional closures, we have not seen any evidence to revise our view that the overall number of extra closures will be modest—perhaps something in the order of 100 schools over three years.
We also recognise the concerns that have been raised about the impact on pupils with special educational needs, including by the hon. Member for South West Hertfordshire (Mr Mohindra). That is why we will ensure that those pupils with the most acute additional needs, whose needs can be met only in private schools, will be unaffected. For example, in England, where attendance at a private school is required by a child’s EHCP, that child’s parents or carers will not pay VAT and councils supporting them will be able to reclaim the VAT. In Wales, post-16 provision of this kind is funded by the Welsh Government rather than by councils. They cannot reclaim VAT in the same way, so ringfenced funding will be provided until 2028-29, when responsibility will pass to local authorities.
More broadly, we are committed to transforming the system of supporting children and young people with SEN, because it is badly needed, as the hon. Members for Esher and Walton (Monica Harding) and for Tiverton and Minehead (Rachel Gilmour) clearly set out. The Budget announced a £1 billion uplift to high needs funding in 2025-26, providing additional support for more than 1 million children in the state sector with special educational needs and disabilities.
The hon. Members for Surrey Heath (Dr Pinkerton) and for Windsor (Jack Rankin) raised the issue of service families, but I fear they downplayed the increase of more than 12% in the continuity of education allowance from the Ministry of Defence. The issue of faith schools was also raised. They are an important part of our educational landscape, but the argument that private faith schools should be exempt from these changes is not compelling. An exemption would reduce the revenue available for pupils in state schools, including those of faith, and would be inconsistent with this Government’s strong view that a state education is suitable for children of all faiths and for children of no faith.
Damian Hinds
On faith-based education, the Minister is quite right that there are large numbers of faith-based schools in the state sector. However, there are some denominations and particular religious traditions for which there are not large numbers of schools, and whose actually charge fees sometimes considerably below the average cost of a state school place. Does he recognise that there may be a case for an exemption in such cases?
Torsten Bell
I recognise the description of the status quo as the right hon. Gentleman describes it, but I reiterate my view and the Government’s view that a state education is suitable for all families of all faiths.
A public petition has decided that we should have today’s debate. On those grounds alone, it is right that we have had it. I recognise many of the points that hon. Members have raised, even if I have attempted to set out why the Government believe that in some cases they are overdone. As we rightly debate the impact of these policies, we must recognise the reason that they have been made: the priority that we must attach to providing extra resources for our state schools—resources that I have not heard a huge number of suggestions for replacing today. These are schools where 94% of our children are educated, and where this Government will deliver an education system fit for all.
Pension Credit Applications and Awards: February 2025
Torsten Bell Excerpts(1 month ago)
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The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Torsten Bell)
The latest statistical release on pension credit applications and awards was published today. It includes data on the number of weekly pension credit applications received and cleared, as well as data on claims awarded and not awarded between 3 April 2023 and 23 February 2025.
Since this Government made the difficult but—given the challenging public finances—right decision to target winter fuel payments, we have been absolutely focused on maximising take-up of pension credit. The Government are forecast to spend £174.8 billion on benefits for pensioners in Great Britain in 2025-26. This includes spending on the state pension, which is forecast to be £146.6 billion in 2025-26. Crucially, our commitment to the triple lock for the entirety of this Parliament means that spending on people’s state pensions is forecast to rise by over £31 billion.
We want to ensure that all pensioners get the support to which they are rightly entitled. That is why we took immediate action on pension credit and have been running the biggest ever pension credit take-up campaign, which has included adverts on television, radio, social media such as Facebook and Instagram, on YouTube, on advertising screens, including on GP and post office screens, as well as in the press. To promote pension credit through as many channels as possible, we have also engaged with key stakeholders and partners, including other Government Departments, local councils, housing associations, community groups, local libraries and service providers, as well as charities and third-sector organisations.
The new figures published today show that for the year to date 2024-25, the Department for Work and Pensions has received 300,000 pension credit applications. This represents the highest number of annual recorded pension credit applications seen by DWP since comparisons began.
Since 29 July 2024 when the winter fuel payment announcement was made:
DWP has received 235,000 pension credit claims—an 81% increase or 105,100 extra applications on the comparable period in 2023-24;
DWP has cleared 232,200 pension credit claims—a 92% increase or 111,100 extra clearances on the comparable period in 2023-24; and
of the claims which DWP has cleared, 117,800 have resulted in an award of pension credit—a 64% increase or 45,800 extra awards on the comparable period 2023-24.
It is important to recognise the volume of applications which the Department received during this period. We understand that pensioners expect their applications to be processed quickly and accurately, which is why we deployed over 500 extra staff to process this huge increase in claims. The latest statistics also show that outstanding claims have reduced from 85,500 in mid-December to just 33,700 by 23 February.
Finally, although around 1.4 million pensioners currently receive pension credit, too many are missing out. We must do more to ensure that pensioners receive all the help they are entitled to. Building on the success of our campaign, we are now exploring other options to drive up claims by:
Writing to all pensioners who make a new claim for housing benefit and who appear to be entitled to pension credit—directly targeting this group to make a claim;
In the longer term, the Government are committed to bringing together the administration of pension credit and housing benefit, so that pensioner households receiving housing benefit also receive any pension credit that they are entitled to;
Undertaking new research on the triggers and motivations that encourage people to apply for pension credit—learning from pensioners’ experiences, we want to build the evidence of what works to boost take-up; and
Working across Departments including His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to use data more effectively to help identify pensioner households most likely to be eligible for pension credit, and to target them directly.
[HCWS478]
Support for Pensioners
Torsten Bell Excerpts(1 month, 2 weeks ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Torsten Bell)
It is a pleasure to serve under you, Dame Siobhain, in a debate on such an important topic. We owe thanks to the hon. Member for Mid Bedfordshire (Blake Stephenson) for securing it, and I thank everybody who has contributed to it.
Recent years have been difficult for pensioners. They, along with the rest of Britain, have had to wrestle with a cost of living crisis, inflation in double digits for the first time in four decades, food prices rising even faster, and energy bills that have shot up—as the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) mentioned, before he mentioned that he is approaching a significant birthday. The debate is focused on whether it is 40 or 50, but we will celebrate whatever it is, as well as celebrating his form-filling success.
Everyone who has spoken in the debate will have spoken to constituents about the challenges posed by the cost of living crisis. I have certainly spoken to some of the 17,000 pensioners in Swansea West. This is an important debate and, as well as responding to the points that Members have raised, I will cover: what lessons we can learn from the past, celebrating some things that have worked and recognising where they have not; what the Government are doing today to support pensioners, covering lots of the points raised by Members; and, briefly, our future priorities, as requested by the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for South West Devon (Rebecca Smith).
First, I will address the good news. In the 1990s, pensioner poverty was rampant. Almost 30% of UK pensioners were living in relative poverty. The old and the young—children—bore the brunt of the rise in poverty in the 1980s and early 1990s, but under the last Labour Government, not only did rates of pensioner poverty fall, but they had halved by the 2010 election. That did not happen by accident. Policy—including the introduction of pension credit, which we have discussed today—drove lots of that change, especially for women and older pensioners, and higher private pensions and employment rates further boosted pension incomes. But no one, of any party, thought that it was job done at that point, and I am sure that none of us thinks that today, not least because, in recent years, progress on pensioner poverty has stalled and relative pensioner poverty has risen by 300,000 since 2010.
Even though today the UK has a lower rate of relative poverty among pensioners than the OECD average, the fact remains that, as Members have said, pensioner poverty is still too high. It is 16% in Wales, and it is especially high for renters. Almost 40% of all pensioners in poverty are renters, and with growing numbers of private renters, the challenge looks likely to grow, reinforcing the point that the hon. Members for South West Devon and for Mid Bedfordshire made about the need for long-term planning.
There is another lesson from the last decade and a half: when growth stalls, the reductions in absolute pensioner poverty that we all used to take for granted slow or even grind to a halt, so growth matters for pensioners as it does for workers.
Rebecca Smith
Does the Minister not agree that, from 2010, the previous Government secured a 200,000 reduction in the number of pensioners in absolute poverty? I do not have details of what the figure might have been otherwise, but it is important to put that on the record, because nearly a quarter of a million is still a significant number.
Torsten Bell
I am loath to do this, but the honest answer is no—it is far too small a reduction. Absolutely poverty should be falling every year, very significantly. We should really only need to debate relative poverty measures because, in a growing economy, we should all be taking it for granted that absolute poverty is falling.
I hope that we can agree on two things: first—I think we do agree on this—that we must do better, and secondly, and more positively, that there are lessons to learn from what has worked over the last quarter of a century. While we are on a positive note, I can agree with the hon. Member for West Worcestershire (Dame Harriett Baldwin) about the importance of community groups that support our pensioners, through Ageing Well in Swansea and, I am sure, lots of other devices around the country.
I am not under any illusions—even if I was, I could no longer be after the last hour and a quarter—about hon. Members’ views on the Government’s decision to target winter fuel payments at those on the lowest incomes. I will not rehearse all the arguments for that policy, but our dire fiscal inheritance is no secret. We owe it to the country—to all generations, young and old—to put that right, and that has involved wider tough decisions on tax and spending. I say gently to Members who oppose not just the targeting of winter fuel payments, but every tax rise proposed, that that has consequences. If they oppose every tough choice, they propose leaving our public finances on an unsustainable footing, and leaving our public services in a state that far too often lets down those who rely on them, not least pensioners.
Although we can no longer justify paying winter fuel payments to all pensioners, it is, as all Members have said, important that we do more to make sure pensioners receive the support they are entitled to. In recent months, we have run the biggest ever pension credit take-up campaign, because, although around 1.4 million pensioners currently receive pension credit, too many are missing out. I urge all pensioners to check whether they are entitled to support.
The right hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton) mentioned the complexity of the pension credit form. I have considered that, and there is more that we can do to simplify it. All I would say is that in our messaging to pensioners, we should be clear that most of the questions do not need to be answered by the people filling in the form. Currently, 90% fill in the form online or over the phone, and the average time taken to fill it in online is 16 minutes.
Wendy Morton
I am grateful to the Minister for providing that clarity, but it took me longer than 16 minutes, so perhaps I am not as articulate as others.
Wendy Morton
Does he agree, though, that the 10% who cannot do it themselves in that way are potentially really losing out? There is also a group of pensioners who have worked hard all their lives and done the right things, but are too proud to apply for pension credit, let alone to go online to fill in a form.
Torsten Bell
The right hon. Member is absolutely right to raise the case of those who might need support to complete the form. That is why one of the elements of the campaign we have run this year is targeting not pensioners directly, but friends and family, to encourage them to help people to apply for pension credit themselves.
Torsten Bell
I want to make a bit progress, and then I will take some more interventions.
I will be updating Members later this month on the impact of the campaign so far. The hon. Member for South West Devon asked about constituency-level data on winter fuel payments. We will be publishing that in the usual way in September. The hon. Member for Wokingham (Clive Jones) asked about the DWP and councils working closely together to drive pension credit uptake. He was completely right to do so. I will write to him on the specific point he raised, because it is not true, but on the generality, he is completely right that the onus is on the DWP to work with councils, and on councils to work with the DWP.
Wider support is also available for pensioners: direct financial help through cold weather payments in England and Wales, and help with energy bills through the warm home discount, which we expect to benefit over 3 million households, including over 1 million pensioners, this winter. The right hon. Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Steve Barclay) and several others raised the need for energy efficiency in homes. They were completely right to do so, but I note very gently that there was a 90% fall in energy efficiency installations in the early years of the previous Government. Someone wanted to “cut the green”—and that was the result. We are trying to do better than the previous Government did on that front.
We are committed to maintaining the triple lock on the state pension throughout this Parliament. The hon. Member for South West Devon rightly noted that that was introduced under the previous Government.
Seamus Logan
The Minister promises to maintain the triple lock, but the Government have broken promises on WASPI women and on farmers, so how can anybody believe that they are going to keep their promise on this?
Torsten Bell
We will be maintaining the triple lock throughout this Parliament, as promised in our manifesto. In April, the basic and new state pensions will increase by 4.1% and 12 million pensioners will see a concrete increase—whether Members believe it or not—of up to £470.
Several Members mentioned the need for long-term planning. That commitment to the triple lock means that spending on the state pension is forecast to rise by over £31 billion this Parliament. At the individual level, that translates into the new state pension being on track to rise by up to £1,900 a year, and the basic state pension —the pension that is relevant to those who hit the state pension age before 2016—by £1,500. But the last 15 years tell us that we need to do more for pensioners.
Jim Shannon
In my contribution I hinted that attendance allowance might be another method of giving benefit entitlements to qualifying pensioners. Not every pensioner would qualify, but many would. I suggest a concerted campaign by the Government to make every pensioner aware of all the benefits. As the right hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Wendy Morton) said, sometimes they are shy, sometimes they are independent, and sometimes they do not know they are entitled to things.
Torsten Bell
The hon. Member raises an important point. Attendance allowance would entitle a pensioner to extra income to pay for extra costs, including heating if required, but it would also lead to a higher threshold for qualification for pension credit. However, he is right that we need to see people applying for those benefits.
As I was saying, the last 15 years tell us that we need to do more for pensioners, and that returns on private pension savings matter too. We are undertaking a comprehensive pensions review to ensure that the pensions system is fit for the future, building on the success of auto-enrolment, which was introduced under the last Government and has seen over 11 million employees saving into a workplace pension. That is one of the big areas of progress in the pensions landscape in the last 25 years.
The Government are committed to further reforming our pensions landscape, so that it drives up both economic growth and returns to savers, via the upcoming pension schemes Bill. We need bigger and better pension funds investing in productive assets such as infrastructure. We need to help individuals consolidate small pension pots and have sight of them via the pensions dashboard, so that they can plan for security in retirement. The measures in the Bill could help the average earner who saves over their lifetime have over £11,000 more in their pension pot when they come to retire.
Steve Barclay
The central justification that the Government give for taking away winter fuel payments is the fiscal position, but then they say that they want people to take up pension credit, which comes at a cost. Could the Minister say how many people would need to take up pension credit to cancel out the fiscal benefit? If that were to happen, it would undermine the central premise on which he is putting forward the policy.
Torsten Bell
That argument is made a lot. All I would say is that all of us should want all pensioners to receive the benefits they are entitled to and to drive pension credit take-up. We are confident that this policy will deliver significant savings, and the costings put into the Budget in the autumn take into account an increase in pension credit take-up.
For most pensioners I speak to, concerns about the state of the health service are front of mind. The biggest betrayal of pensioners today is the state of our NHS—run down in England and undermined in Wales, with the capital budgets handed down by the UK Government to the Welsh Government not remotely sufficient to maintain the NHS estate or to invest in badly needed diagnostic equipment.
Torsten Bell
No.
That is why this Government are investing £22 billion in the English NHS this year and next, with consequentials for the Welsh and Scottish Governments. The hon. Member for Aberdeenshire North and Moray East (Seamus Logan)—
Torsten Bell
No.
The hon. Member for Aberdeenshire North and Moray East rightly says that society will be judged on how it treats its pensioners, particularly with regard to the NHS, but in Scotland we have now seen five new NHS recovery plans announced in four years. That is not a tribute to our older generations. Supporting pensioners in the 2020s is about more than opposing every tough choice—
Dame Harriett Baldwin
On a point of order, Dame Siobhain. Is it orderly for me to point out that the NHS is suffering from a number of over-65s who sadly have a high level of mortality—
Dame Siobhain McDonagh (in the Chair)
Order. I do apologise to the hon. Member, but that is not a point of order, and she knows it. I call the Minister.
Torsten Bell
Thank you, Dame Siobhain.
Supporting pensioners in the 2020s is about more than opposing every tough choice that the Government have to make. It means directly raising pensioner incomes via the state pension and pension credit, but it also requires us to reform our private pension system, grow our economy and rescue our public services—
Dame Siobhain McDonagh (in the Chair)
Order. We are out of time, but I want to make a public apology to the hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell (Helen Maguire). I should have allowed her to intervene, and I certainly meant no discourtesy to her.
Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 10(6)).
Work and Pensions
Torsten Bell Excerpts(1 month, 2 weeks ago)
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Sir Ashley Fox
What assessment she has made of the potential impact of means-testing the winter fuel payment on levels of pensioner poverty.
Torsten Bell
This Government have run the biggest ever take-up campaign on pension credit, which is worth around £400 on average to those eligible.
[Official Report, 3 February 2025; Vol. 761, c. 534.]
Written correction submitted by the Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, the hon. Member for Swansea West (Torsten Bell):
Torsten Bell
This Government have run the biggest ever take-up campaign on pension credit, which is worth around £4,200 a year on average to those eligible.
Oral Answers to Questions
Torsten Bell Excerpts(1 month, 3 weeks ago)
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Neil Duncan-Jordan (Poole) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Torsten Bell)
In recent months, the Department has run the biggest ever pension credit take-up campaign, across TV, radio and online. Some 150,000 pension credit claims were made in the 16 weeks following the winter fuel payment announcement, and the campaign continues. This week, new work to invite all pensioners newly receiving housing benefit to claim pension credit will begin.
Neil Duncan-Jordan
I thank the Minister. The latest figures show that at least 800,000 pensioners are eligible for pension credit but do not claim it, which means they have now also lost out on the winter fuel payment that they previously would have enjoyed. Does the Minister think that means-testing is working?
Torsten Bell
It is important that 1.5 million pensioners will receive the winter fuel payments this winter. The statistics my hon. Friend refers to relate to previous years, before the recent take-up campaign. However, he is right to highlight that under the Conservative Government, three in 10 eligible pensioners were missing out.
Tom Gordon (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (LD)
In recent days and weeks, household bills across my constituency have gone up and up and up. Many who miss out on pension credit because they are just above the cut-off will now be wondering where they will find that extra money. Will the Government think again about the removal of the winter fuel payment and ensure that pension credit is rolled out on a taper?
Torsten Bell
It is important that we keep driving up the take-up of pension credit, but that is not the only support available to pensioners: everyone will see the state pension rise by over 4% this April; the household support fund is very important and will be extended for another year; and the warm home discount is available to the poorest pensioners.
Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)
Government figures show that an additional 42,500 households have claimed pension credit, yet that is only about 5% of all those eligible who were not claiming it. As constituency MPs, we are having to support people who are really struggling with the cold and their financial balances. Will the Minister think about setting up a pensioner poverty taskforce, so we can really get underneath the issues facing older people?
Torsten Bell
I am sure that all Members, on both sides of the House, are providing support to their constituents—pensioners, those of working age and children—to ensure they can cope following a difficult few years for everyone because of the cost of living crisis. On pensioner poverty specifically, it is important that we update our understanding of how that has developed. If we look at the record, we see that pensioner poverty halved under the previous Labour Government, but rose by 300,000 under the Tory Government over the past 14 years.
Gideon Amos (Taunton and Wellington) (LD)
Those on the guaranteed element of pension credit receive the warm home discount, but many do not. Following the changes made a couple of years ago, linking the warm home discount to the age and size of a property, have the Government made any assessment of how many people have been affected the double whammy of losing the warm home discount and the winter fuel payment?
Torsten Bell
I have heard the hon. Gentleman’s comment and will raise it with the responsible Minister in the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero, but it is important that all pensioners who are entitled to support get it. That is what the Government are focused on.
Mr Andrew Snowden (Fylde) (Con)
Lincoln Jopp (Spelthorne) (Con)
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Torsten Bell)
The Government are looking across the piece at how the important work of our regulators supports economic growth, and the Pensions Regulator, which oversees the third largest pension system in the world, is no exception to that.
Lincoln Jopp
The then pensions Minister, Guy Opperman, said that green-lighting defined benefit pension superfunds was his greatest achievement of lockdown. The unelected Governor of the Bank of England then unhelpfully intervened and said that superfunds would be a risk to financial stability, and as a result the Pensions Regulator has authorised only one pension superfund to come into existence. Can the Minister be a little more specific and tell us what exactly he is going to get the Pensions Regulator to do differently in order to support the growth mission?
Torsten Bell
That is an important question. The Pensions Regulator does recognise its important role in supporting growth; indeed, it has statutory duties not just to protect savers but to minimise the impact on the growth of employers. Superfunds have an important role to play in ensuring that we have larger pension funds that are able to invest in a wider range of assets. As the hon. Gentleman says, on an interim basis the Pensions Regulator has authorised one such fund, but we will take measures in the pension schemes Bill to make further progress in this regard.
Patrick Spencer (Central Suffolk and North Ipswich) (Con)
Sir Ashley Fox (Bridgwater) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Torsten Bell)
This Government have run the biggest ever take-up campaign on pension credit, which is worth around £400 on average to those eligible. It also opens the door to extra support and means that 1.5 million pensioners will continue to receive the winter fuel payment. The modelled impact of the decision to target the winter fuel payment at those who need it most does not account for the measures that this Government are taking to raise pension credit take-up.
Patrick Spencer
There is no doubt that the cut to the winter fuel payment has hit Suffolk hard. NHS Suffolk reported that 97% of beds were occupied over the Christmas period due to a spike in cold, flu and pneumonia-like symptoms. Kesgrave community centre has set up warm rooms for impacted pensioners. The only good news is that the Suffolk Community Foundation has managed to raise £100,000 to support pensioners across our community who are impacted by the cut. Will the Minister join me in paying tribute to the Suffolk Community Foundation for being there for the most vulnerable people in our society when his Government were not?
Torsten Bell
This Government and the important charity that the hon. Gentleman mentions are here for the most vulnerable pensioners. That is why we are targeting the winter fuel payment at those who need it most, and why we will uprate all the state pension elements by over 4% this April. He raises the case of the national health service and how important it is to older generations, but it is his party that drove the NHS into the ground over the last 14 years.
Sir Ashley Fox
Labour-controlled Bridgwater town council is increasing its council tax precept by 40%. That means that pensioners in my constituency are suffering from not only the loss of their winter fuel allowance, but an enormous tax rise. What advice does the Minister have for those of my constituents who do not qualify for pension credit, and who now face the loss of the winter fuel allowance from this Government and a huge tax rise from their Labour council?
Torsten Bell
I encourage all pensioners to consider whether they are eligible for pension credit, but also to look for the wider support that can be provided via the household support fund and the warm homes discount. I say gently to the hon. Member that the driving up of council tax bills is a direct result of the destruction of local government finances by the Conservative party over 14 years.
Helen Whately (Faversham and Mid Kent) (Con)
I welcome the Minister to his place. I have a simple question for him: how many people are still waiting for their winter fuel payment?
Torsten Bell
The largest campaign to drive up pension credit take-up is now under way, and it will continue in the years ahead. What we are seeing at present is that anyone who made their claim for pension credit before 21 December will receive their winter fuel payment when that claim is processed.
Helen Whately
So the answer is that the Minister does not know. He does not know how many people are waiting for their winter fuel payment. He does not know how many people are stuck in the pension credit backlog. He does not know when they will hear about their claims. He does not know who has had help from their local council. He does not know how many people who lost their winter fuel payment have ended up in hospital this winter. He and his Department have dodged or refused to answer every single one of those questions in recent weeks. Will he commit to a full review of the winter fuel payment cut so that we can get those answers?
Torsten Bell
I will commit to fighting every day to avoid a repeat of the exercise under the last Government whereby pensioner poverty rose by 300,000, having fallen by 1 million under the last Labour Government. We will make sure that we publish details of the take-up of pension credit by the end of February.
Katrina Murray (Cumbernauld and Kirkintilloch) (Lab)
Steve Darling (Torbay) (LD)
I was pleased to hear that Labour councillors on Hull city council have voted to condemn the Government’s shameful decision not to compensate WASPI women. Has that given the Minister pause for thought?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Torsten Bell)
I recognise the strength of feeling on this issue right across the House. We carefully considered the ombudsman’s report, but as the hon. Member knows, we do not think it is fair to provide compensation costing up to £10 billion when 90% of affected pensioners knew that the state pension age was rising, and the evidence shows that letters being sent earlier would have made little difference.
Danny Beales (Uxbridge and South Ruislip) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Torsten Bell)
I thank the hon. Member for raising that case and I would be happy to meet her to go into a bit more detail. That is exactly why we make sure the pension credit threshold rises in line with the basic state pension through the triple lock.
Damien Egan (Bristol North East) (Lab)
During covid, assessments for personal independence payments were moved either online or to over the phone. Today less than 5% of those assessments have returned to face-to-face, so what assessment have Ministers made of that change and are there any links with the rise in fraud?
Agricultural Property Relief
Torsten Bell Excerpts(2 months ago)
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Mr Carmichael
The Minister is shaking his head. I wonder whether the hon. Lady would join me in inviting him to intervene to explain why that fact is wrong.
Ann Davies
I do not know whether the Minister would like to do so now or at the end. It is up to him.
Torsten Bell
I will at some length explain why the remarks that the right hon. Gentleman just made—
Graham Stringer (in the Chair)
Order. If Members wish to make an intervention, they should stand to do so. It is up to the person who is speaking whether to accept an intervention.
I was going to say this at the end of Ann Davies’s speech, but I will say it now. This debate is oversubscribed, so I will put a time limit on speeches. Members should make short interventions, because interventions will mean less time for those people who have put in to speak.
The Parliamentary Secretary to the Treasury (Torsten Bell)
It is a pleasure to speak in this debate with you in the Chair, Mr Stringer. I congratulate the hon. Member for Caerfyrddin (Ann Davies) on securing this debate and for engaging with many different pronunciations of the name of her constituency over the course of the last hour and a half. She rightly makes a powerful case for Welsh farming, which all of us in south Wales would like to reinforce.
We will not all agree on the policy under discussion today, but we all agree that topics such as this are important to many and should be properly discussed in this place—ideally at a lower temperature than in this room. I have listened closely to the contributions to the debate, and I thank all hon. Members for setting out their views and for speaking on behalf of not only their constituents, but their acquaintances, friends and family members. The hon. Member for Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross (Jamie Stone) made a clear case about the emotional, not just economic, importance of land to farmers and farming families. Most of us will have someone close to us who farms, but even those who do not will recognise the huge contribution that our farmers make to our food security, our economy and our rural communities. None of us takes those contributions for granted, and we have heard that today.
Before I turn to the specific points raised by hon. Members, I will briefly—I promise it will be brief—set out the context for the Budget decisions we are debating. This Government’s inheritance matters, however much the hon. Member for Keighley and Ilkley (Robbie Moore) declines to mention it. We had unsustainable public finances, equally unsustainable and struggling public services, councils going bust and prisons overflowing, so tough decisions were unavoidable in the Budget if we were to restore economic stability, fix the public finances and support public service. That is the backdrop to the decision to reform agricultural property relief.
That decision was not taken lightly, but it was a necessary decision, not least because rural communities lose out more than most when health, transport and council services across the UK do not live up to the standards that any of us expect. It was the right decision, because the Government will maintain significant levels of inheritance tax relief for agricultural property, far beyond what is available for most assets, because we recognise the role that those reliefs play in supporting farmers.
The debate is really about how we balance the objectives of protecting family farms with the public finances and public services. The status quo—the full, unlimited exemption introduced in 1992—has become unsustainable. The benefits have become far too heavily skewed towards the wealthiest estates. Some 40% of agricultural property relief benefits the top 7% of estates making claims. The top 2% claim 22% of the relief, which means 37 estates are claiming £119 million in a single—
John Glen
The Minister is a serious economist with a serious track record in analysing public finances. With all due respect, given the significant uncertainty and the fact that numerous organisations representing farming interests outside the party political debate have asked serious questions about the deliverability of the scheme and the amount of money that will be raised, surely he must accept that there is time for people such as he to work with officials to find better ways of finding the sums that he says he needs—I am not disputing that—to do the right thing by the farming communities of this country and not cause the unintended damage that will clearly take effect.
Torsten Bell
I thank the right hon. Member for his kind words, even though I cannot agree with everything that followed. I will come on to some of the points that he raised shortly. I think this will come up several times in the course of what remains of the debate, but we cannot use farm valuation data to make claims about inheritance tax claims. On the latter, we have the actual data for the claims made, which is what we rely on.
Several hon. Members rose—
Torsten Bell
I will make some progress and then I will give way.
We see a similar picture for business property relief. It is in large part these reliefs that mean the largest estates pay materially lower rates of inheritance tax than more modest estates. That undermines faith in the fairness of our tax system more generally. Given the pressures we face, it cannot be right to leave this system unreformed, which is a point the hon. Member for Waveney Valley (Adrian Ramsay) made well.
That is the context and the rationale for the changes to how we will target agricultural property relief and business property relief from April 2026. Contrary to the claims that these reliefs are being scrapped, which I am afraid to say were repeated by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) just now, we will continue to provide significant tax relief, including for small farms and businesses. Individuals will still benefit from 100% relief for the first £1 million of combined business and agricultural assets. Importantly, the relief sits on top of all the other spousal exemption and nil-rate bands. Depending on people’s circumstances, up to £3 million can be passed on by a couple to their children or grandchildren free of inheritance tax.
Jim Shannon
I will try to be brief. On the rateable value, which the Minister mentioned earlier, my understanding after talking to the legal person of the Ulster Farmers’ Union is that the rateable value is based on whether the farm was handed over in the 1970s, in the 1980s, in the 1990s or even in the 2000s, but the rateable value does not show the real value of the land. Therefore, it is a flawed system. If it is a flawed system, the Minister needs to go back to the very beginning and look at it. I say that respectfully; I am not trying to catch anybody out. I am just saying that if something is not right, then get it right.
Torsten Bell
The point I was making was about the hon. Member’s point that the relief had been scrapped; I was just making the point that the reliefs have certainly not been scrapped and that they remain very generous indeed.
Beyond the thresholds I mentioned, the 50% relief will continue and there will be a reduced marginal inheritance tax rate of 20%, rather than the standard 40%. Furthermore, in response to the points raised by several Members today about the cash-flow challenges that some farms face, particularly after bad years like last year, I will point out that heirs can spread the payments over 10 years interest-free, which is a benefit that is not seen anywhere else in the inheritance tax system.
Mr Carmichael
If people are looking at a £400,000 bill, which is what they would pay on a £3 million farm, and they earn £25,000 a year, they will still struggle to make that payment in 10 years; in fact, it would be downright impossible. That is how the land gets sold.
Torsten Bell
I will not comment on the individual example the right hon. Gentleman gave, but in general he is right to say that there can be large variations in the profits of farms between years and between farms. That is partly why the tax system already allows us—uniquely for farmers—to average profits over periods of time. Obviously, our advice to all farmers who think they will be affected by the change is that they should seek advice in turn.
I turn to the impact that these reforms will have, as that has been the central focus of most comments today.
Torsten Bell
I will make some progress.
In 2026-27, up to 520 estates claiming agricultural property relief, including those that also claim business property relief, are expected to pay more as a result of this change. That means that around three quarters of estates claiming agricultural property relief will not pay any more than they do now.
The hon. Member for Keighley and Ilkley and the right hon. Member for Orkney and Shetland (Mr Carmichael) asked questions about business property relief and specifically about claims that are not covered by agricultural property relief. Around three quarters of estates claiming business property relief alone—that is, the same proportion that have agricultural property relief, once we exclude those only holding alternative investment market or AIM shares, which are often held for the purpose of avoiding inheritance tax—will not pay any more inheritance tax in 2026-27. All estates making claims for these reliefs will continue to receive generous support, at a total cost of £1.1 billion to the Exchequer. The system will remain more generous than it was before 1992, when inheritance tax was applied at a maximum rate of 50%, including on the first £1 million that was passed on.
Several Members have implied that the change will end the passing-down of farms between generations. I gently point out in response that farmers, agricultural landowners and small business owners did not receive 100% relief on inheritance tax for almost all of the 20th century, yet farms and businesses were very much passed down between generations. Indeed, the tax system will continue to support that process. As the Institute of Fiscal Studies has said, our reforms will:
“still leave…land much more lightly taxed than most other assets”.
These changes should also be seen in the wider context of support we are providing for farmers and rural communities. The hon. Member for Aberdeenshire North and Moray East (Seamus Logan) was wrong in his comments about the Office for Budget Responsibility, as the document produced this week provides no new information. However, he was right about the importance of food security, as was the hon. Member for Great Yarmouth (Rupert Lowe). That is why the Budget committed £5 billion to farming over the next two years, including the biggest budget for sustainable food production in our history. It also committed £60 million to help farmers affected by the unprecedented wet weather last winter. The wider tax system will also continue to support farming—tenants as well as owners—including through exemptions from business rates, the use of rebated diesel and the ability, as I said, to average tax affairs over a number of years.
As we have heard today, the reforms to inheritance tax generate strong views. I understand that. I recognise that a small number of estates will have to pay more. I have not hidden from that today, nor in conversations—
Robbie Moore
Will the Minister confirm when he and the Government will start listening to the points being made by everybody outside this place—different stakeholders, banks, accountants—
Robbie Moore
And supermarkets. The Minister and Government are, dare I say it, alone on this point.
Secondly, as he did not allow my intervention earlier, will the Minister confirm why the Government are not taking into account the value and the size of agricultural units when projecting the impact the changes will have on family farming businesses and farming businesses?
Torsten Bell
The hon. Gentleman raises the question of supermarkets. Supermarkets can talk but there is a lot they could do directly to support our farmers—
Torsten Bell
I listened to the question and I will make more progress. I have not hidden from what I have heard from individuals across the country about this issue in recent months, including from talking to farmers in mid-Wales and East Anglia. Reform of the reliefs is necessary if we are serious about putting our public finances on a stable footing and repairing our broken public services, including the schools, hospitals and roads that communities across the UK—
Torsten Bell
No, I am going to finish. Communities across the UK, including in rural areas, rely on those things every single day. We have taken these decisions to make the system fairer and more sustainable and the decisions come alongside significant new investments in farming and support for small business.
Thank you, Mr Stringer, and all those who have spoken today, in particular the hon. Member for Caerfyrddin for securing the debate. I look forward to her concluding remarks.
Automatic Enrolment: Earnings Trigger and Qualifying Earnings Band Review 2025-26
Torsten Bell Excerpts(2 months, 1 week ago)
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Torsten Bell)
Automatic enrolment into workplace pensions has transformed workplace pension saving for millions of workers. The Government are committed to looking at long-term steps we can take to further improve pension outcomes.
I have completed this year’s annual statutory review of the thresholds within automatic enrolment. The main focus of this year’s annual statutory review of the AE earnings trigger and lower and upper earnings limits of the qualifying earnings band—the AE thresholds—has been to ensure the continued stability of AE for employers and individuals. It is important that AE works for individuals, supporting those for whom it makes economic sense to save towards their pensions while also ensuring affordability for employers and taxpayers.
The thresholds review has therefore concluded that all AE thresholds for 2025-26 will be maintained at their 2024-25 levels.
The 2025-26 annual thresholds
The automatic enrolment earnings trigger will remain at £10,000.
The lower earnings limit of the qualifying earnings band will remain at £6,240.
The upper earnings limit of the qualifying earnings band will remain at £50,270.
The analysis supporting the review will be published and a copy will be placed in the Library of the House. It will be available on the www.gov.uk website, following publication.
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