Commons Chamber

Thursday 16th April 2026

(began 2 weeks, 6 days ago)

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None Portrait Q5. What steps she is taking to support the BBC. (908571)
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This government believes strongly in the BBC. And recently I announced that the Society of
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None Portrait Q4. To ask the hon. Member for Battersea, representing the Church Commissioners, what steps the Church is taking to help protect Christian communities from extremism. (908596)
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>> Marsha de Cordova. >> Mr. Speaker, the church is
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None Portrait Q7. To ask the hon. Member for Battersea, representing the Church Commissioners, what recent discussions the Church of England has had with the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport on the future of the Listed Places of Worship Grant Scheme. (908599)
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Daniel Francis thank you, Mr. Speaker. Question number seven. >> Marsha de Cordova Mr. Speaker, following the end of the existing listed place of worship scheme in listed place of worship scheme in January this year, and we are still awaiting details of the of the replacement scheme, and as I
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None Portrait Q8. To ask the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent and Rhymney, representing the Restoration and Renewal Client Board, what discussions the Client Board has had with representatives of the events sector on the potential impact of the possible acquisition of the QEII Centre on that sector. (908600)
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Martin Rhodes. >> Question number eight. >> Mr Speaker Nick Smith. >> Mr. speaker, I'm delighted to give my hon. Friend the Church give my hon. Friend the Church Commissioner a short rest this
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None Portrait Q10. To ask the hon. Member for Battersea, representing the Church Commissioners, what steps the Church of England has taken to support small churches. (908602)
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>> Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Church of England supports more often rural churches through targeted grants, practical tools
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None Portrait Q11. To ask the hon. Member for Blaenau Gwent and Rhymney, representing the Restoration and Renewal Client Board, what recent progress the Client Board has made on its work. (908603)
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>> Mr. Speaker. >> Did he cut off. Nick Smith Nick
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Jesse Norman Portrait Rt Hon Jesse Norman MP (Hereford and South Herefordshire, Conservative)
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Just to. >> Just to. >> Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. This, as you all know, and as the This, as you all know, and as the House will know, has been a week of sporting triumph. I think of the Lionesses World Cup qualifier one Lionesses World Cup qualifier one nil against the world champions, Italy, or as it were, the former world champions, Italy, I should say. Rory McIlroy, defending his Masters title. Another great moment. Whether or not you play watch or even like golf, it was an extraordinary, gripping achievement.

And from Northern Ireland to boot, an honest man facing his demons and triumphing. What a contrast with the Prime Minister's failure to answer, or even to engage with the question at Prime Minister's Questions. The last four Prime Minister's Questions, Mr. Speaker, have focussed on the Iran war, fuel duty, North Sea oil and gas and the defence review of the 24 responses given by the Prime Minister to the Leader of the Opposition, 23 have ignored the question and changed the subject.

Yesterday we even saw the Prime Minister hectoring you, Mr. Speaker, in your chair and on live television just for doing your job. That is a shameful record for which the Prime Minister should write to you and therefore, by implication to this House and apologise. This behaviour is contemptuous, Mr. Speaker, of you, of the Leader of the Opposition, but of us all as MPs now and in years gone by. Our job, however imperfectly we may do it, is to pursue the truth on behalf of those we represent.

If we give that up, then heaven help us. And it is the Prime Minister's job to answer and to hold himself accountable for those answers. No Prime Minister likes to do that, but those are the rules. If the Prime Minister doesn't like the rules, if he doesn't want to offer honest answers, if he is not up to it, then he should step back and let someone else do the job instead. So I thank you, Mr. Speaker, on behalf of all of us, for maintaining the traditions of this House.

And I ask the leader, first of my three questions today, if he shares my view that this behaviour is wholly inappropriate by the Prime Minister and disrespectful of this House, but this is just part of a wider problem of accountability and disrespect for Parliament. Mr. speaker, my noble friend, the Lord Gilbert Parliamentary Question of 16th March, asked the government about authorised Budget briefings to the media. Lord Livermore replied on the government's behalf. Consistent with these principles, there are occasions where the government will trail and or announce policy ahead of a Budget to provide context and help the public understand major fiscal events.

Mr. speaker, this is nonsense. The rules are perfectly clear. Major events must be announced first to this House. To do otherwise is a breach of the rules of this House, a flagrant violation of the ministerial code and a contempt of Parliament. Previous governments, as we all know, have done this on occasion since 1997 at least, and previous Chancellors of the Exchequer have been fired for inadvertent briefings to the media before a Budget. But never before has it been a government's declared policy to ignore Parliament.

The deeper constitutional point is, of course, that in our representative government system of government, the people is Parliament and Parliament is the people. Nothing good can come out of the attempt to undermine the British Constitution by this means. So I ask the leader, secondly, to comment on this and to set out what he will do to get this policy of non announcement of major measures withdrawn and revoked. And finally, Lord Robertson, he spoke of corrosive complacency, of current political leadership, of putting our country at risk.

He said and I quote, we cannot defend this country with an ever expanding welfare Budget. No one has more experience and expertise in defence across the whole of Parliament. In both chambers. This man, the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, was a political activist for Labour since 1961. Just think of that, Mr. Speaker. The last person one could imagine wanting to offer public criticism of a Labour Prime Minister, let alone in these terms, a man labour to his boots, but a patriot first, it's impossible to blame previous governments for this.

Mr. speaker, this government, this Prime Minister created the Defence review and they created the Defence Investment Plan. No one else. It is their choice and their decision. And it matters because in every constituency across this country, there are companies wanting to know what the government has decided, waiting for leadership. They need to know the numbers, they need to know the commitment. And of course, our adversaries need to know that we are serious in our resolve and see the measure of that seriousness and my great fear.

Perhaps it is also Lord Robertson's great fear is that the government will never publish this document, or they will do so in a completely insubstantial and lightweight way, and that ten months of delay will end in nothing. It will all have been a colossal waste of time and energy. So let me say finally, Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister on this has been utterly hopeless. He told the Liaison Committee weeks ago the document was on his desk, yet nothing has happened. I leave it to colleagues to judge the truth of his remarks.

So I ask the leader, thirdly, if he will give this house a cast iron guarantee on behalf of the government, that defence investment plan will be published and not simply shelved and forgotten. The one year anniversary is in July.
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Alan Campbell Portrait Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)
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Thank you very much indeed, Mr. >> Thank you very much indeed, Mr. Speaker. And first of all, Mr. Speaker, may I say that my thoughts are with our servicemen and women currently serving in the Middle currently serving in the Middle East, and as the as the situation unfolds, our highest priorities. To ensure the safety of our people in the region. My thoughts are also, Mr. Speaker, with those affected by the terrible attempted attack on the Finchley Reform Synagogue, and I'm sure the House will join me in thanking the police and emergency services for their swift action.

And also, Mr. Speaker, this week has seen the 37th anniversary of the disaster at Hillsborough and my thoughts are with the family and friends of those who died and as the Prime Minister confirmed, reaffirmed yesterday, the government is committed to delivering legislation and introducing a duty of candour across all public services. Mr. speaker, I also want to pay tribute to Lord Jeremy Beecham. Lord Beecham was an incredibly influential and dedicated politician who was respected across the political divide, and his dedication to the City of Newcastle has changed the city into what it is today, and I know the whole House will join me in sending condolences to his family and friends.

Mr. speaker, during recess we published our plan to halve knife crime and at the core of that plan is prevention, providing safe spaces in communities and supporting schools and families to address root causes. And Mr. Speaker, this means giving an alternative path to young people and will in future literally save lives. In terms of other announcements, we've also announced our intention to invest £237 million to expand community diagnostic centres across England for CDC will open, 17 will be expanded and 15 will receive enhancements to boost diagnostic capacity and get patients seen quicker.

And this means that patients are able to get swifter results, which is really important, and also get them closer to home, which again is important. And also, Mr. Speaker, this week, over 500 new free breakfast clubs began to open their doors, helping parents with the cost of living and giving children a healthy start to the day. I want to turn now to the remarks of the shadow leader. And if I may, Mr. Speaker, I'll deal broadly with his first two questions together because he refers to the Prime Minister's the way in which the Prime Minister addressed the questions that were put to him yesterday, and also, secondly, announcements made by outside of this House and he.

And whether or not the. The House should be the first to hear. Let me address those two questions first and say that the hon. Gentleman has been here a very, very long time, and he cannot. Well, a long time put it that way. Not as long as me, but a long time. OK. He's been here a long time, and frankly, we've both been here long enough to know better than us the questions which he has been asking there, because I know why he's doing it.

And at the heart of it, I understand exactly what the point is here. But all Prime Minister's deal with Prime Minister's Questions in their own way. But it isn't unusual. But it isn't unusual for any Prime Minister. It is not unusual for any Minister not to give the answer that the opposition want on a particular day. So let's let's let's let's not kid ourselves, Mr. Speaker, that we're entering a new chapter in this. And when he talks about announcements to the House, he actually said that the previous government on occasion made announcements outside of this on occasion.

I think it was on occasion that they actually made the announcements in this House. But the serious point here, and I will address this serious point here, I am absolutely clear, and I've said from this Dispatch Box before that announcements, serious announcements should be made at the earliest convenience in this House, and this should be made in this House. But we also understand that we do. Politics is done in a different environment to the way that it was done a decade or two decades before.

And to some extent, it's a it's a moving environment. And government is working in that environment too. But I do take his point, and I have said that announcements should be made in this House at the earliest opportunity. Let me now turn to the comments of Lord Robertson and say that the Prime Minister made his and the government's view clear on this. But the. The hon. Gentleman asks about the defence plan. The defence plan will be delivered and this House will have an opportunity to debate that plan.

I do accept that it has taken longer than perhaps any of us would have wished. And let me give you three reasons, Mr. Speaker. The House. Mr. Speaker, three reasons why that should be. So. The first is that we inherited a defence Budget, which was totally out of control and had been mismanaged for the past 14 years. It had been, in the words of a previous defence secretary, hollowed out. And that wasn't a previous Labour defence secretary. It was a previous conservative defence secretary.

So that's the first reason why this takes time to put right and turn around. The second reason is, and the hon. Gentleman, I think, knows this because he's a very distinguished member of the Defence Select Committee. The second point, Mr. Speaker, is that we inherited an economic mess. And if you're going to put defence right, you've got to have the money to put it right. And again, the hon. Gentleman understands this, Mr. Speaker, because he has admitted in in all but words in this place that he's a secret Keynesian at heart.

And he knows. He knows he's admitted it. It's. He's owned up to it. Don't worry. He's owned up to it. The point of this, Mr. Speaker, is that he understands, as most people understand, that our economic inheritance was absolutely appalling, and we have to get that right, too, before we can press ahead with our commitments to properly fund defence. And the third point, which is relevant here, is that the absolutely botched Brexit Brexit deal left us diplomatically isolated, Mr.

Speaker, and the Prime Minister, the Prime Minister has invested personally, invested a great deal of his time and energy to build alliances with our allies, not least in Europe. And those alliances are important as we look at the question of defence in a moving international situation, as we look at where defence will be as we move forward and what I cannot accept, Mr. Speaker, is the analysis or the suggestion by the Leader of the Opposition that somehow at the election it was day zero, nothing happened before, which has any impact on the way in which this government is forced to face up to those difficult decisions.

So we will, Mr. Speaker, publish the plan. There will be an opportunity to debate it. And let me finish on this point. I do understand the point that he makes about companies, and obviously there needs to be some certainty. But let me just rid him of this suggestion that we are that everyone is waiting for announcements and nothing is happening. There are contracts being issued all of the time. And let me finish on this point, Mr. Speaker. More than 80% of those contracts in the last two years have gone to British companies, which is in stark contrast, Mr.

Speaker, to the performance of the last government.
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Wendy Chamberlain Portrait Wendy Chamberlain MP (North East Fife, Liberal Democrat)
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Wendy Chamberlain Liberal Democrat spokesperson. >> Much, Mr. Speaker. And can I start by wishing my hon. Friend the Member for Carshalton and Wallington all the best for his Wallington all the best for his parental leave. Sadly, I have no news, particularly for his wife to update the house with, but I hope to be able to do so in due course. Mr. speaker, I would like to draw particular attention to the House this week to the devastating civil war in Sudan, which sadly entered into its fourth year just yesterday.

This is the world's worst humanitarian crisis, with over 29 million Sudanese facing acute food insecurity now. Earlier in the parliamentary session, the Prime Minister, in response to a question on Sudan from my right hon. Friend, the leader of the Liberal Democrats, said he does not think we discuss it enough in this House. So will the Leader of the House act in the spirit of those words and ask the Foreign Secretary to give a statement on the conflict next week and include an update to the House on her discussions at this week's Berlin conference, Mr.

Speaker. We also continue to reel from news emerging from the Oval Office, and I must confess that I did not have the president of the United States labelling the Pope as weak on crime on my 2026 bingo card. But given recent events, perhaps I should have done. And his latest AI image released last night of him embracing Jesus Christ, reminded me of the immortal words of Brenda from Bristol in April 2017. Not another one. But in all seriousness, Mr. Speaker, Trump's chaos is having real impacts here in the UK and in my own constituency of North East Fife, his reckless war in the Middle East is hitting families up and down the country, in the pocket and at the fuel pumps.

So will the Leader of the House schedule a debate in government time on the economic impact of Trump's war, and include a consideration of Liberal Democrat proposals for a £0.10 fuel duty cut. Other countries are providing that certainty on fuel duty now. Isn't it time that the government did likewise?
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Alan Campbell Portrait Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)
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Leader Mr. speaker, may I join my hon. Friend in wishing well to the hon. Member for Carshalton and Walton, and we do await news with Walton, and we do await news with bated breath. At least he might get the nursery finished by the time of the arrival. She makes a serious point about the Sudan Civil War and the. The government is doing everything that we can, not just to help to address the humanitarian situation, but also to try to get an end to that war.

We have committed £146 million in aid to Sudan. We have sanctioned RSF commanders. We are doing everything that we can, but I join her in hoping that the conflict ends soon and we're not shy of updating the House on this matter, and we will continue to do so. And I will draw her attention to the Foreign Secretary in terms of I'm not going to comment on in terms of the president of the United States comments and the effect that it's having, because I think we can see that play out, not just in her constituency, but elsewhere as well.

The the real answer from the government is that we are absolutely focussed on doing everything that we can in the national interest, to see if we can ensure that the ceasefire continues, but also to bring an end to the conflict too. And she's right to point out that this is a very serious an economic situation, too, possibly the most serious energy crisis in the last half century. And the economic impact may well be felt beginning to be felt and may continue for some time.

Again, there are lots of suggestions about what might do. The government is absolutely focussed on on this. We're not going to rush to judgement about action that we need to take now. We've already taken some targeted measures, not least on, on, on heating oil, but we're absolutely focussed on that and be reassured that we will continue to do so. We're looking at all of that. And I'm sure, again, because we're not shy of doing this, that when the opportunity arises that there will be an opportunity for further statements on these matters, and I hope that the House can come together not just to ensure that we have a firm view on going forward in the international situation, but also how we can combat the economic issues that are going on, I am afraid, are likely to continue for some time.
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Bob Blackman Portrait Bob Blackman MP (Harrow East, Conservative)
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And we'll fly the flag for Staffordshire Bob Blackman share the Backbench Committee. >> Bring back Middlesex, I say. >> On behalf of the Backbench Business Committee, can I remind Business Committee, can I remind the leader that there's the promised motion which we await on changing standing. Orders for the election of the Backbench Business Committee for the new session. In addition to the business announced by the leader next Thursday, there'll be a Select Committee, statements from the Environmental Audit Committee and the housing communities and local government committees in the chamber on the business in Westminster Hall Tuesday, the 21st will see a debate on the Independent, the need for an independent National Review body overseeing wheelchair provision.

On Thursday the 23rd, there will be a debate on access to education and training for young adult carers, followed by a debate on gambling advertising. On Tuesday the 28th. There will be a debate on government support for park home owners. Now, Mr. Speaker, I managed to get a private member's bill through this place, namely the Supported Housing Regulatory Oversight Act 2023. We are still awaiting the implementation of that act, and that means that vulnerable people are being exploited by rogue landlords.

I understand from the department. They've now completed the consultation on the regulations to implement the act, but it's likely we're not going to see the implementation till 2027. So could the leader arrange for a statement in this place sometime next week on what exactly the government's doing on implementing this act, which is across Party Act, which we've introduced. And if there's no statement, Mr. Speaker, can I urge you to allow me an adjournment debate on the subject?
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Alan Campbell Portrait Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)
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See what he says. before. Let me thank the hon. Gentleman for his work and the work of the Committee, and for updating us on the work going forward. He mentioned the standing orders. There are a number of standing orders that we are bringing forward, as he knows, around the work of his committee, and the commitment that we made that I made is that we would do it before the end of this session, and I can tell him that we are committed to sticking with that.

I can't give him the exact date, but we are I am committed to doing that, and therefore that is what we will do. Let me turn to his other question about his private member's bill, and again, congratulate him, because I do remember the way in which he achieved that, and it was quite an achievement. I'm sorry to hear that. The it has not had the effect yet which had been anticipated. I know that, however, he has remained an assiduous campaigner on these matters.

I think he has met Ministers, and he continues to press, and I hope, because I can't guarantee him time in government time. So I hope that you will listen carefully to his plea, Mr. Speaker, and then he can hear directly from the Minister about what the plan is going forward. But in the meantime, I will take it up with the Minister, because, as he points out, this is not just his concern. It's a concern of a number of people across this House.
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Peter Kyle Portrait Rt Hon Peter Kyle MP, Secretary of State for Business and Trade (Hove and Portslade, Labour)
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Madam Deputy Speaker. With permission, I would like to make a statement on the industrial energy costs. When I became business secretary, I said that we needed to be bolder, to go further, to move faster, to support British enterprise. Today, I want to set out what that means for reduced electricity costs for British industry. The events of recent days and weeks have serve to demonstrate the strategic weakness and economic threats inherent in Britain's overdependence on the geopolitics of the global oil market.

It is high time Britain gained energy independence by ending that dangerous overreliance, and instead transitioning Britain to become a clean energy superpower. My hon. Friend the right hon. Friend the Energy Secretary is overseeing that transition, but British manufacturing continues to have some of the highest electricity costs in Europe. That undermines our manufacturing base, impacts our manufacturing jobs, and damages the lives and livelihoods of cherished communities across the country. The government was elected to halt and reverse Britain's industrial decline.

That's why our modern industrial strategy addresses high electricity costs for British businesses. As part of our British Industrial Supercharger package, I have already increased support for over 550 of the UK's most energy intensive businesses. Those in our heavy industries. We have increased the Network Charge Compensation Scheme discount from 60% to 90%, saving companies up to two £420 million a year on their electricity bills. And we are starting started building the UK's first small modular reactor in North Wales, laying the groundwork for manufacturers to benefit from reliable, low carbon electricity.

Last year, I launched the consultation on the British Industrial Competitiveness Scheme because our plan to bring industrial electricity costs more closely in line with our other European economies. I am grateful to the support of the Chancellor in establishing. Because the response to our consultation, which we are publishing today, also shows overwhelming business support for the Bix scheme. The scheme has been endorsed by the Confederation of British Industry and the society for Motor Manufacturers. Our partners have done more than just support the policy.

They have been co-creators, helping us to shape and scope the scale of the scheme. economy. That is the difference that a Labour government with an activist industrial strategy makes, not just high hopes or warm, warm words, but real action to reduce energy costs and increase industrial competitiveness. But I pledged not just to be bolder, not just to go further, but to act faster in the interests of British businesses like me. I am sure the whole house, like the whole house business, is keen for the benefits of Bix to take into account the challenging economic reality that we all face today.

And so I can announce a payment for businesses eligible for Bix, covering the period for 2627 and reflecting the support the businesses would have received if the scheme were in place this year. It will be delivered next year and my department will set out more details shortly. Our focus now is on making sure that Bix is as strong and significant as possible, that it delivers for our car industry, for our aerospace and defence, for the best of British manufacturing.

So my department is investing in businesses to help us finalise the operational details of Bix. I invite those companies who can benefit from the who can benefit to go to the Department for Business and Trade's website, submit their views and help us prepare for this final phase together. This is a major industrial intervention and financial commitment by this government. I am determined to get it absolutely right. From the start, we said that our industrial strategy was never about a single publication or a single moment in time.

It is a marked departure from the old economic orthodoxies of Thatcherite deindustrialisation and a failed free market ideology that let whole towns, whole regions, whole communities go to the wall. Ours is an activist industrial strategy supporting British businesses when they need it, intervening when circumstances demand in wealth creation and opportunity for all. We recognise the current instability in the global economy. As the Prime Minister has said, the conflict in Iran is not our war, but we must do everything in our power to shield British businesses from the worst effects of it.

Businesses are rightly concerned about the impact of the conflict in the Middle East. The Chancellor will set out the principles guiding the government's thinking as we consider our response. Today's announcement of our bigger, bolder scheme is proof positive of our commitment to back British businesses for the long term. It sits alongside our continued focus on short term impacts, on which we will not hesitate to act where needed. We will continue using our activist industrial strategy to create the right conditions for British firms to succeed and to grow.

We do so because we know that when the government and enterprise work in partnership, we can make Britain stronger, wealthier and more resilient. I commend this statement to the House.
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Gareth Davies Portrait Gareth Davies MP (Grantham and Bourne, Conservative)
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Shallow Minister Gareth Davies. >> Shallow Minister Gareth Davies. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. >> I thank. >> The Secretary of State for advance sight of his statement and advance sight of his statement and for coming to the House proactively this morning. Of course, I refer the House to my register of interests and my former career in asset management. But let me start by saying that I very much welcome that the government has recognised that industrial energy bills remain incredibly high. This is an issue that businesses across the country have been raising for many, many months now.

I've heard what the Secretary of State has to say, and there are a number of areas where I'd appreciate further clarity. Firstly, according to the government's figures, at least 99% of companies will not benefit under the scheme. Even after the announced expansion. Pubs, restaurants, farmers, retailers are all also facing energy cost challenges, and innovative companies like OpenAI have halted planned multi-billion pound investments in our country. So can I ask what action the government will be taking to address those businesses concerns? Secondly, although today's today businesses are being told that they will be supported and their energy bills will be reduced, no relief will actually come their way until next year.

So what plan is there to provide a more timely relief for businesses having to pay their energy bills right now? Finally, I'm not clear on how this one off additional payment next year will actually be funded. And given the fact that the IMF just this week have expressed concern about the UK economy, saying that we are the most exposed of all major advanced economies, can he provide clarity to the markets this morning as to how this will be paid for? Madam Deputy Speaker, the issue of energy costs for British businesses did not start with the conflict in Iran.

We all know that energy prices in this country have been far too high for far too long. We now have the highest industrial energy prices in the whole of the G7. We should therefore look at the root of the issue at hand. The structural energy challenges that we face as a country. I am pleased that within the regulatory consultation launched today, the government has committed to the removal of carbon price support from April 2028. This is adopting one of the key provisions of our Cheap Power Plan.

And so, of course, I very much welcome that. But why wait until 2028 and why stop there? He can go further and adopt the plan in full, ending the carbon tax from green levies right now, as well as scrapping the 78% tax on North Sea oil and gas companies. These are actionable right now. Today, pragmatic and sensible. And if he does those things he will have our full support. Thank you.
12:06
Peter Kyle Portrait Rt Hon Peter Kyle MP, Secretary of State for Business and Trade (Hove and Portslade, Labour)
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Secretary of State thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and thank the hon. Gentleman for his firstly, hon. Gentleman for his firstly, support for the scheme. I know it's a qualified support, but where where the qualified support exists. I'm grateful for it. Let's just be very clear about this scheme, this scheme I've been designing now for quite some time. This is a competitiveness scheme and it is a targeted scheme. This is not a general scheme for the entire economy. This is to increase the competitiveness of the businesses so they can compete globally and they can be more profitable domestically.

This will be highly, highly impactful for those businesses. Many of those businesses are already profitable and doing great work. This will mean that we can turbocharge their ability to be competitive both domestically and internationally. There are a range of other schemes that I've announced, in particular the supercharger for high energy intensive sectors, and there's other interventions that I've made just in the six months that I have been Secretary of State. He was gracious in praising parts of the scheme. He could have also mentioned the fact that the growth figures that came out today showed that as we approached the challenges in the Middle East, we did so by busting the forecasts and exceeding the expectations of growth for our country.

This is good for every single business in the entire country, because growth is the number one mission of this government, and that is what we have been getting on with doing. And of course, going into this challenging period, it means we have more resilience and success in the British economy as a as a result, you know, he asks for funding. This is being funded, as I said in my statement, through relief on three schemes and also support from the Exchequer. It is fully funded and within the fiscal rules and is fully set out as we move forward.

More details will follow as we work with business to make sure we get the invitation absolutely right. He goes on to call for a whole set of other measures that he would like to see. I'd like him to hold himself to the same standards that he holds me, and set out how he will fund all of those, all of those commitments he's making.
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Gareth Snell Portrait Gareth Snell MP (Stoke-on-Trent Central, Labour )
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Yeah. >> Gareth Snell thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I mean, let's start with the positives. I'm glad that there is now some form of recognition that there is an recognition that there is an industrial energy crisis in this company, and the Secretary of State has brought forward something that helps some sectors. The bad news for my sector that I represent, along with many colleagues in the House today, is that the ceramic sector is not included in this. Nothing for tableware or giftware, nothing for ceramic tiles, clay pipes or clay tiles, nothing for bricks.

Madam Deputy Speaker, with a government that hasn't objected to build 1.5 million homes. No support for bricks in this strategy, meaning we're going to have to import bricks from Pakistan on diesel chugging supertankers, where they've been made by indentured labour in coal fired kilns. And we won't make them in Warsaw or North Staffordshire or in your constituency of yourself. Madam Speaker Sanitaryware. This is a sector that has half £1 million in exports, employs 20,000 people directly across the supply chain and puts £1 billion back into the UK economy.

We have spoken to the Chancellor, to the Secretary of State's predecessor, to the Energy Secretary, to Ministers across all departments and to the Treasury. They promised us help in the Budget, in the Industrial strategy, in the other Budget, in the Autumn statement, and then we were told, wait for because I suspect the line from the Secretary of State will be it's gas intensive. So wait for the supercharger scheme. But frankly, that isn't good enough. There are factories that are going to close as a result of this, this announcement.

There are jobs that will be lost as a result of this announcement. So can I ask the Secretary of State very bluntly and very directly, how many job losses will it take? How many factory closures, how many brick kilns need to be mothballed before the government steps in to do something for the ceramic sector? Or is it now the policy objective of this government to oversee the end of a domestic UK ceramics production?
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Peter Kyle Portrait Rt Hon Peter Kyle MP, Secretary of State for Business and Trade (Hove and Portslade, Labour)
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Thank you. I'm grateful to my hon. Friend for his passionate hon. Friend for his passionate intervention. Look, I came into Parliament ten years ago. He came into Parliament just a short time afterwards. These are issues that he's been raising in Parliament for a very long time. He raises issues about a sector that has been under stress for various different reasons, both global and domestic. For a very long time, I have been determined that my department be connected and to be as open to listening and seeing how we can support the sector as possible.

There are monthly meetings with officials. There are monthly. There are monthly meetings with officials. The industry sector I know met with the hon. Gentleman and other MPs and also industry figures from the sector. Just last week I realised that there's not been or I just discovered there's not been a Secretary of State for business visit in order to meet with industry figures from ceramics for over five years now, I'm willing to. To do so, my department will be reaching out in the coming days to those people running those companies to see if me going there and listening to the concerns and seeing what could be done would be of interest to them.

And if they'd like it, I will be there. I wanted to stress that he is listed a whole series of very different components that come from the ceramics industry. It is a diverse industry with diverse inputs. Some of them, I admit, a minority, you know, could be eligible for the big scheme that I've announced today. The diversity of it means that there needs to be a very, very focussed look, a comprehensive look at the sector. I'm willing to go there and meet the industry figures

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myself and do so. Liberal Democrats spokesperson Daisy Cooper.

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Daisy Cooper. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'd like to thank the Minister for advance sight of his statement. Our country is in a very fragile state. We cannot defend ourselves, we cannot feed ourselves, and we we cannot feed ourselves, and we cannot power ourselves, our national security, our food security and our energy security are deeply interconnected, and the government's response is far too sluggish. The CBI and others are very, very clear. Their response to this announcement is that industry cannot wait until next year.

A back payment in 12 months will not cut it. They are negotiating their energy deals now. They need support now, and the failure to provide it will mean that jobs will be lost, companies will close and our sovereign capabilities will collapse. So can I urge the Minister to come back next week to this House and make sure that whatever announcement they were going to make about that payment in 12 months time is made next week. Madam Deputy Speaker, There is a significant gap in the government's industrial strategy, namely the food and farming sector, which we Liberal Democrats believe should have been included.

So can the government confirm whether this backdated payment in 12 months time and the BIC system will apply to the food and farming industry,
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Peter Kyle Portrait Rt Hon Peter Kyle MP, Secretary of State for Business and Trade (Hove and Portslade, Labour)
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Secretary of State. And, in fact, you know, I could have listened to her for her for much longer because she is listening important areas across the sector. I'm very aware of the challenges and the opportunities in a in a in an economy that is full of great enterprise, a lot of highly profitable businesses doing great things with great entrepreneurs. And when you listen to her, you would think that the economy actually isn't full of people who are thriving and businesses are thriving.

You only focus on the challenges. But let me be very clear that when it comes to understanding how Bics happened, it came through consultation with the very businesses that she is asking us to listen to. They have been part of designing the system, which is how the system is being designed. As we move forward, we will release an implement a scheme that is targeted and will have maximum benefit. We will have we will announce over the summer, for example, there will be the ability for an eligibility checker so that businesses can see their own specific eligibility for qualifying for the scheme.

As we move forward, of course, we will be making payments for costs that may have been incurred this year. But let me be really clear about how these businesses are working most of the businesses and include the business that was on the radio four today programme this morning, where we had Sharon from Tees Components up in Teesside. She has is in the contract where she has fixed prices for the coming year. Most companies in the categories that we are targeting, which is high where energy is, is electricity is a high component cost for their manufacturing process.

They are either hedging or they're in contracts, so they have some stability into the future. We have designed a scheme which takes that into account and will be there when they need it, but also to supply support for the money that they would have had this year when it comes to CO2 and the the issues that are in the news at the moment. Within days of me becoming Secretary of State six months ago, I mothballed in Sis up in Teesside a fantastic company. I've had to mothball it and I did so in the first couple of days of the strikes in Iran to make sure that there was resilience in key parts of our economy.

This is something that was leaked. You don't normally comment on leaks, but it's out there now. These are the things that I'm doing being bold, being creative and acting in the interests of the whole society and the economy to make sure that we have the resilience and also the ability to carry on doing business and come out of this with growth in our economy. At the other end.
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Peter Kyle Portrait Rt Hon Peter Kyle MP, Secretary of State for Business and Trade (Hove and Portslade, Labour)
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I'm very grateful for her intervention. She gives voice to the hospitality sector, which she the hospitality sector, which she is absolutely right. The hospitality sector is important for so many reasons. For many people, it is the most interaction they have with the frontline of the economy. It is the place people go for light relief and fun. And my goodness, we deserve more fun as a country more often. And it is also a part of the sector where very often it is the first.

It is the first part of the pathway onto into the economy. So many people's first jobs is in hospitality, and I recognise for all these reasons that they are the hospitality is an incredibly important part of our economy. The first and foremost thing that the hospitality sector needs is growth in our economy, with people with more money in their pockets to spend. That's why the news that has just come out today about us reaching 0.5% economic growth in the quarter leading up to the end of February is so significant.

Getting the absolute foundations for growth embedded into our economy is something that hospitality needs more than anything else. And of course, I meet with hospitality UK regularly. I have roundtables with hospitality. I come from a constituency in Hove, which has a thriving hospitality sector for which I meet people in the front line all the time and any time. I always enjoy engaging with her about these issues.
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Karin Smyth Portrait Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)
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health strategy. The NHS was founded on the principle of equality, the right care for everyone whenever they need it. But there's no getting away from the there's no getting away from the fact that the NHS has failed to live up to that founding promise. For too long, women have been left For too long, women have been left to navigate a confusing system, fighting to get the basic care they deserve and underrepresented in health research. But above all, women's voices and choices have been dismissed.

It is truly shocking how often women have been ignored when telling medical professionals about their pain, from pelvic mesh to endometriosis. We're expected to put up with pain as our lot in life, as if it was normal. But it's not normal. And since coming into office, this government has taken a number of measures to improve women's health. We've taken action to bring down those gynaecology waiting lists. We've introduced menopause questions into routine health checks made the morning after pill available for free at high street pharmacies, stood up.

A rapid and independent investigation into maternity services. And we've introduced Richard Tice rules so that GP teams have to reflect, review and rethink. If a patient presents three times with the same or escalating symptoms. But the blunt reality is that the NHS is failing women and girls on even the most basic measures of healthcare. Indeed, we don't treat all women equally either. The wealthiest 10% of women live in almost ten years longer than the poorest 10%, while the most deprived spend over a third of their lives in bad health, something I see very starkly in my own constituency of Bristol South.

Disabled women experience poorer outcomes, and we should recognise the additional disadvantage faced by Black and Asian women who face that double discrimination of racism and misogyny all at once. Our renewed women's health strategy will address these and other glaring injustices. It will give women and girls faster care from a health system that actually listens. It will make simpler and faster access the care they need the first time they ask for it, and it will make sure the latest innovations work for women, ranging from reproductive and maternal health to menopause and chronic conditions.

And Madam Deputy Speaker Of course, every day women are receiving outstanding compassionate care from our dedicated NHS staff. But being ignored, gaslit, humiliated and disrespected are all too common experiences for far too many. More than eight women in ten say there have been times when healthcare professionals did not listen to them. Now our mission is to dismantle the culture and ingrained behaviours that allow this medical misogyny to fester and grow. And that starts by listening to women. Women's voices and choices are the golden thread that runs through this renewed strategy.

Their voices will be heard as we work to reduce variation in how GPS listen to and respond to women using patient survey data in a quality improvement programme. Their voices will be heard as we capture whether women have been treated with respect, kept informed and involved in decisions about their own care, and their voices will be heard as we co-develop new standards of care for procedures like Hysteroscopy, so that every woman has informed consent and real choice over her pain relief.

Yesterday, my right hon. Friend, the Secretary of State announced that we would do the first trial of a scheme known as Patient Power Payments that will cover gynaecology services. Women will get a say on whether the NHS provider should get full payment for the services women receive based on the quality of their experience. That means if a woman isn't happy with her experience, a portion of the tariff paid to that provider would be redirected to fund improvements in the same services instead. In other words, women will have the power to kick medical misogyny where it hurts in the Budget.

Madam Deputy Speaker, All of this is building on the evidence and expertise that informed the original strategy, and I want to acknowledge the intended ambition of that work, not least because it was based on the contributions of thousands of women. But the changes that were promised have not translated into consistent improvements in access, quality of care, or outcomes. Take gynaecology services. The waiting list for Gynecare was north of 600,000 when we took office. Today, that figure is finally moving in the right direction, but we can't make as much progress as we would like to because the system simply wasn't designed with women in mind.

And as my hon. Friend who I'd like to pay tribute to the noble Baroness Meryn, who has led this work on behalf of the government, as she makes clear in her forward, the system wasn't designed. And to be fair to Nye Bevan, in 1948, he was largely thinking about working men who were dying early in their 60s from the awful consequences of poor work, with some support from maternity services. So we need to change that. We will support Icbs to introduce a single point of access for all non-urgent referrals to gynaecology and women's health services to speed up access.

Redesign the most common clinical pathways for heavy periods, menopause and add urogynecology to remove unnecessary delays. And women with fibroids and endometriosis will be listened to at the first presentation. They'll be seen faster and offered clear information through our new virtual hospital. NHS online women's health pathways are being prioritised in NHS online and menopause, and menstrual health will be among the first to go live when it becomes operational this year. There'll be relentless focus on reducing women's pain, on improving standards and reducing variation in both procedural and chronic pain management, including for chronic pelvic pain.

And we will launch a new program to help young girls grow up understanding their menstrual health and knowing when to seek help, from gynaecology to pain relief. Our new strategy takes forward the work of the previous government and goes further and faster to fill the holes they left. It has only been made possible by the record £26 billion in funding for the NHS, secured by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor, the first woman to hold that office. And all of this will be underpinned by an NHS that finally listens with respect, dignity and compassion to the voices and the choices of every woman and every girl every time, not least with the creation of the Women's Voices Partnership, a new space for organisations representing women, giving them a direct line to Whitehall to inform national decision making.

The partnership will have a particular focus on women most excluded from traditional services, and through this partnership we will ensure that women's voices help shape the long term direction of NHS reform. And unlike the original strategy that was based on an outdated model of care, this renewed strategy maps across the three shifts in our ten year plan for health. The shift from sickness to prevention will mean that women can better understand and act on their risk of conditions like breast cancer and diabetes.

The shift from hospital to community will mean services designed around women's lives, with much faster access to diagnosis and treatment, and the shift from analogue to digital will mean women will avoid long waiting lists for painful conditions through NHS online. Within two years, we'll launch a new challenge fund backing the most promising women's health technology, start-ups, with a focus on tackling health inequalities in community settings. And we're embedding new sex and gender policies into studies through the National Institute for Health Research so that findings are genuinely representative, and no woman is left behind by science.

So in conclusion, Madam Deputy Speaker, as every woman hearing this knows, to fully exercise power over our lives, we need to be at the top of our game mentally and physically. Yet we know also that women's health has been neglected for too long, and it falls to this government to restore the founding promise of our National Health Service, to deliver the right care for everyone when they need it. From the classroom to the clinic, our renewed women's health strategy promises a fairer, healthier future for women and girls everywhere.

Acting on women's voices and choices, transforming NHS performance in services that matter most to women, supporting all women to live healthier lives, and creating an approach to research and development that works for and empowers women. We're designing the system to fit around women's lives. This will not be a strategy that sits around gathering dust on a shelf, because women are counting on us and we will not let them down.
12:48
Caroline Johnson Portrait Dr Caroline Johnson MP (Sleaford and North Hykeham, Conservative)
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Shadow Minister. >> Shadow Minister. >> Doctor Caroline Johnson. >> Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'm glad to see the much and I'm glad to see the much delayed women's health strategy is finally here. I thank the Minister for her work on this and for advance sight of her statement. I am particularly pleased Ministers have pledged to prioritise menstrual health conditions such as endometriosis, and to continue the rollout of the HPV testing that we piloted for Madam Deputy Speaker today.

It is one year since the For Women Scotland judgement in the Supreme Court confirmed that sex is biological sex. At the time, the Secretary of State told the public we'll be issuing guidance in the coming weeks before the summer. I guess to be fair to him, he didn't say which summer. This week, a Minister told the House the guidance on single sex spaces could not be published under purdah rules until until after the local elections. So could the Minister explain why it is OK to announce policy on other aspects of women's health, but not on single sex provision in the NHS?

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Good point. Madam Deputy Speaker. I must say I find it remarkable that the Minister has the audacity to talk Minister has the audacity to talk about women harmed by pelvic mesh when, after almost two years in office, they have still not office, they have still not responded to the Hughes report. When do they intend to do so? I was When do they intend to do so? I was disappointed not to find within the report commitment to lobular breast cancer moonshot. Could the Minister give us a timeline for what I give us a timeline for what I understand is a commitment of theirs? OK.

The Minister talked about waiting lists, and whilst it's welcome that gynaecology waiting lists have fallen in the last year by 1.9% for those requiring some sort of procedure or admission, waiting lists are 4.5% higher than they were a year ago. Madam Deputy Speaker. One way to make waiting lists shorter is to not start counting until someone has been waiting a few days already. You can certainly hit more targets that way. So I wonder if the Minister could clear something up for me.

The government have decided to prevent GPS from directly referring patients to consultants, insisting they request advice from consultant led teams instead. If the consultant then decides to offer an appointment, the clock then starts. But that's a few days after the original request was received, making the waiting time a few days shorter. And this is where it gets really confusing. The Minister for care said they're going to change the rules, so the clock will start when the advice request is received. So the patient waiting times are accurately reflected.

But the Minister for Secondary Care has said that this will only happen from October. So who is right? Does the government intend to try and fiddle the figures by making people's waits look shorter between now and the autumn? Given that we have had different answers from two different Ministers, do they not know what's going on? Or can they confirm that with the new process and with immediate effect, waiting times will be calculated from the moment the advice and guidance request is received in the same way as it does for referrals now.

The first chapter, Madam Deputy Speaker, is about acting on women's voices and listening to women, which of course is welcome. But there are planning to abolish Healthwatch in favour of listening to organisations. So why have the views that organisations that may or may not accurately represent the voices of women more generally being prioritised, and the voices

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de-prioritized? Yeah. In the strategy, the government

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In the strategy, the government commit to increasing capacity for surgical, i.e. later abortions, they commit to making the morning after pill available free from after pill available free from pharmacies, and they've made the oral contraceptive pill available from pharmacies, too. They said they will improve workforce capacity to provide long acting, reversible contraception, but at a time when sexually, but at a time when sexually transmitted infections are on the rise with potential significant short and long term consequences for women.

There is no mention of condoms in the strategy, given that some men can be reluctant to use condoms, and there is discussion of eliminating misogyny throughout the document. Can the Minister explain the choice not to include these two? Another issue I wanted to raise is that of fracture liaison services. Upon entering government, the Secretary of State said it would be one of his first jobs to establish universal fracture liaison services by 2030. And yet this is moving at such a slow pace that it will not it will not meet his target.

So as the Minister, how many of these Dexa scanners are new? How many are replacements and how many will be used to set up for fracture liaison services? Madam Deputy Speaker the many more questions that I can ask, but I understand that I'm out, that I'm out of time. So in summary, while there are a few good points, it's taken a long time to produce a strategy that's rather disappointing. Women deserve much better.
12:53
Karin Smyth Portrait Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)
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Minister. >> Right? Hard to know where to start, but I guess somewhere in there. I did hear the word welcome, so thanks for that. You know, I, I, and we have in launching what we call a renewed strategy given credit and we welcomed in opposition. But this is the M.O. now of this opposition, isn't it? It's on issues where there can be cross-party agreement, you know, whether it is going to war or women's health strategy. There is nothing that comes from the other side that we can, you know, really seriously work on on behalf of the people you represent.

And it is disappointing, it is disappointing. And to start off on the negative is disappointing. And really they could have done better because we have said in this renewed strategy and in opposition, we welcome the initiative to have a women's health strategy, and we supported that work going forward, as we have done in this strategy, because the diagnosis of lots of issues were right. But as I've made clear in this statement, we are upending this system, a health service that for decades was built around the health needs of men and indeed the work of men and the predominance of men working in the system.

Despite the fact that 77% of our nursing staff are women, we are upending that to put women's voices and choices front and centre, including control of the Budget. And I am putting forward, particularly with NHS online. Those are the game changers. Now, if the party opposite does not recognise the total game changing nature of NHS online, facilitating wherever women live across the country, whether it be in a highly specialised centre that I'm privileged to have in my city of Bristol, or more rural communities that people across the country represent, whether they're coastal or rural communities or tertiary centres, any woman from any part of our country can access NHS online, have that specialist service.

We are trialling that with gynaecology. They then get the support of our rapidly expanding CDC centres, which we again expanded this, this this week in order to get that diagnosis quicker and then get the support they need close to home in their neighbourhood health services, I'm afraid. I mean, I'd really happily respond on the issue she raised, including the judgement of For Women Scotland and the work that we've had to do in order to clear up the mess. Everything that happens to women under this system happened under their watch from from self, from self ID to the issues of the Tavistock.

And everything else happened under the watch of the conservative government. It was an. The lack of rules, the lack of governance, the lack of clarity, not taking on control. That is the mess that we have inherited from the government opposite. And my hon. Friend the Member for Women and Equalities is doing an excellent. She's made of steel. She's made of good experience, she's had to navigate a difficult landscape, and they understand the rules of purdah like the rest of us. So let's not pretend they don't.

And she will be laying that guidance immediately as she can. After the election. I'll go on to talk about the Dexa scanners that were rolling up fracture liaison services, bringing people together. That is a manifesto. And of course it is specialised specialists coming together, working together, fracture liaison services, women's health hubs. Those have led the way amongst clinicians about how you can work better for women. That's why we're building on it, that's why we're expanding on it. It's really disappointing. Doesn't want to work with us on it.
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Danny Chambers Portrait Dr Danny Chambers MP (Winchester, Liberal Democrat)
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Liberal Democrat. >> Thank you. >> Madam Deputy Speaker, and thank the. We welcome this. This strategy the. We welcome this. This strategy and the specific recognition of the. Both the socioeconomic and racial disparities in women's health care. It's really important to put that front and centre and also appreciated the specific recognition of endometriosis and similar conditions. My partner Emma suffers from endometriosis, and I've seen her on many occasions unable to stand up or barely get off the sofa, having been told for years that her symptoms are completely normal and there's nothing wrong with her.

And, you know, given that 1 in 10 women at least suffer from endometriosis and there's over half a million people on gynaecology waiting lists, it's clearly that her experience isn't unique. And maternity safety as well. The picture is deeply troubling. Maternal maternity maternal mortality has increased by over 20% in the last 15 years, and we very recently had some quite high profile media discussions about women and babies being let down, sometimes with devastating consequences. And that's why the Liberal Democrats have been calling for 1 to 1 midwifery care and specialist doctors on every unit.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I welcome the government's specific announcement commitment on treatments to morning sickness. My Liberal Democrat colleague, the hon. Member for Lewes, has campaigned on this for a long time, and it's it's right that we end this postcode lottery for these medicines because that is can be absolutely debilitating for some people. And it's not fair that women have different experiences simply because of where they live. Given the this is not the first women's health strategy to be brought to this place in 2022.

The previous government brought one through and many women we speak to don't feel that there's been any meaningful change. A lot of people are saying we can't just keep announcing strategies while women are waiting for basic care. So given the failure of the last government to actually deliver meaningful change, can we have reassurances that this won't simply be another strategy announcement and that women will feel a receiving?
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Karin Smyth Portrait Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)
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Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Well, can I thank the representative from the Liberal Democrats for his comments? And Democrats for his comments? And that, frankly, is the way it is done. And and some of the issues he's raised. Can I just pick up take the opportunity on particularly on endometriosis long campaigned for in in in this place amongst many women and also men like him also talking not on behalf of their partners but for their partners about the suffering.

It's all very welcomed. And, you know, you know, I do commend the work of former member of the House and behind us, David Amos, and my friend member for Redcar, particularly on chairing the all party group in opposition I in opposition. I'm a member of staff. I hope she doesn't mind me saying, but who also opened my eyes out some 6 or 7, you know, 2017, 18, I guess we're talking about APPGs and raising that house. It persistence works. And we've got to where we are by supporting those women's voices across the country.

And that is front and central of, of, of this strategy. And to his wider point, I'm sure when he gets all the way through it through here, there is a list of actions. I think it's 102, if I remember rightly, through here with dates aligned to them so that hon. Members, and I'm sure they all will look forward to that. And I notice my friend the Baroness is in the in the gallery already, and she will be keeping everybody's feet to the fire, including the Secretary of State, obviously, to deliver on this.

It's in there. We're very clear. We want to put that out. I think waiting for NHS online during the summer, rolling that out and seeing how that works will be a litmus test for us and very much welcome him challenging us on that.
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Karin Smyth Portrait Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)
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Minister can I really thank him >> Minister can I really thank him for raising that? And sometimes, what is the taboo subject around stoma and stoma care and stoma and stoma care and highlighting the complexity for, for for women around that and my best wishes to his wife and I didn't get the name of the clinicians, but thanks to them for getting their name on the record, it matters, doesn't it, when people are dealing with such intimate sort of care. So I think, you know, again, the voices bringing those forward are absolutely a key part of that.

I think the thing to bear in mind in the development of this strategy is it is predicated on the ten year plan and bringing care closer to home. So people who, for example, have stoma, stoma care. Sometimes you want quick questions, online services, you know, sometimes you don't need to go and make it a point to go and see somebody else, or you have a lot of rapid appointments, two and four to a hospital, parking, travelling, etcetera, etcetera. There are ways in which we can use online online services and neighbourhood services, particularly where people are closer to home in order to facilitate the management of care of things like stoma after people have come through or ongoing care.

And I think that's the sort of place which we have the voices and experience informing that local that local care, which will which will look different in different situations, different geographies. Sorry, depending on the other facilities available. I commend him to keep working with us on on how that experience works out.
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Karin Smyth Portrait Karin Smyth MP, Minister of State (Department of Health and Social Care) (Bristol South, Labour)
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Minister well, can I thank him >> Minister well, can I thank him for that? And to Belinda, that's a shocking story and I hope that she shocking story and I hope that she is doing better. This is, as I said, a total game changer and particularly, I think, game changer for this. Based on previous Josh Dean, White's renewed is around the signal we are giving to the system that we will look at the experience of women with. Take that into account. And as I said, look at the budgets and and the return back of that money from those budgets into the service to improve the service.

And as my friend the Secretary of State said yesterday, there's nothing quite like when chief executives and chief finance officers, maybe they haven't noticed. They're busy sometimes, but they suddenly notice that there is such dissatisfaction, clearly, from women in gynaecology. We think that's a really positive signal to improve the service, and that's power in the hands of women. And the other real game changer is around the online service. And as I said, for women in Harlow, for women in Bristol, rural Lincolnshire, coastal areas like Ruth Jones, I've heard from so many this afternoon.

That means wherever you live, you'll have access to online specialist treatment and further rollout of the diagnostic services. To get that diagnostic record back into then your neighbourhood healthcare to be treated closer to home. Building an NHS around women, women's needs, women's experiences. That's the game changer promised by this Labour government.
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13:26
None Portrait General debate: General Debate on the First Report of the Modernisation Committee, Access to the House of Commons and its Procedures, HC 755, and the House Administration response, HC 1726
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Thank you very much indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker, and it's a pleasure to open this debate today, both in my capacity as Leader of
13:26
Alan Campbell Portrait Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)
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the House of Commons, but also as chair of the Modernisation Committee. And first of all, let me Committee. And first of all, let me begin by extending the committee's thanks to all those who provided evidence. The committee heard evidence. The committee heard directly from both members of the House and the Other place, as well as from members of staff and experts and academics, and I would experts and academics, and I would like to thank both former and current committee members for their work on this inquiry and in work on this inquiry and in particular, my predecessor.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester Central. Madam Deputy Speaker, The Modernisation Committee embarked on this inquiry following a consultation it held in autumn 2024, when it heard views from hundreds of members of the parliamentary community about what it should prioritise. The resounding call was to consider the accessibility of the house, that is, both physical accessibility of the parliamentary estate, but also the accessibility of procedures and conventions in the chamber, including the information the House provides to the public about our work.

We all recognise that the Palace of Westminster as an iconic is an iconic building and part of a Unesco World Heritage Site, but this comes with challenges in terms of accessibility. The evidence the committee received was sobering regarding the negative impact of these challenges can have on members, staff and visitors. They include inaccessible doors, toilets, lifts, lighting and signage and the impact that this has on the daily lives of people trying to use the estate. The committee has been encouraged by the House administration's effort to address some of these issues, including before the inquiry concluded, but the tasks before it remain substantial.

To assist the House administration, the committee recommended that an external accessibility advisory group be established so that the administration can call upon any expertise when needed. And I am pleased, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the House of Commons Commission is currently undertaking work to set up this group. A key issue which the committee identified was the lack of progress against issues raised in accessibility audits of the estate. The committee, therefore, recommended that the House administration publish a summary of progress against accessibility audit recommendations, and I am pleased that the House administration's progress will now be a regular feature of business plans and will be tracked throughout the year.

Madam Deputy Speaker, an overarching challenge for the House administration is the culture around accessibility. The committee concluded that although the aspiration of the administration is to provide accessible services, there is a lack of central responsibility or clear lines of accountability to deliver it. The committee believes that this must be addressed by introducing better training and practical guidance for staff specific to their area of responsibility. The committee also recommended that the House of Commons administration revises its strategic priorities to make it explicit as part of the value of being inclusive, that accessibility is a priority for the organisation, alongside security and safety.

I am pleased that the next three year strategy for the House administration includes an explicit commitment to improve accessibility. I want to turn now to House of Commons procedures and processes, and many of the procedures and processes which govern our proceedings have been in place for a long time and for very good reason. We are grateful to you, Madam Deputy Speaker, to Mr Speaker and the other Deputy Speakers for the care that you take in. Assisting members who have access needs to ensure the support is clearly advertised to all members.

The committee recommended that references to the routes available to MPs who require reasonable adjustments, be made in guidance for members. The report also explored issues relating to seating in the chamber and to divisions, and made a series of recommendations, and work is currently underway to consider how deferred divisions might be made more accessible, and the potential introduction of a reasonable adjustment card scheme for MPs who require certain seats for access reasons. Madam Deputy Speaker, The final section of the report focussed on communication, ensuring that we communicate in an accessible way is key to ensuring that our constituents can stay informed about what happens here.

This includes thinking about how we improve accessibility for visitors in the public gallery, and leading by example in ensuring that the documents we produce are accessible to the largest number of people possible. And I know that the administration committee and the House administration are considering what more can be done in these areas. In conclusion, the Modernisation Committee received the House administration's response to our report published on the 19th of March, which assured us that it would make progress on our recommendations, and I look forward today to hear from members across the House this afternoon on their experiences.

The Committee will draw on these when we hear about further progress from the House's senior leadership team later this year. Madam Deputy Speaker, accessibility should never be an afterthought. It is a core part of what we do, and I commend this motion to the House.
13:32
Jesse Norman Portrait Rt Hon Jesse Norman MP (Hereford and South Herefordshire, Conservative)
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The question is that this House has considered the first report of the Modernisation Committee access the Modernisation Committee access to the House of Commons and its procedures, and the House administration response. I call the

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administration response. I call the shadow Leader of the House Jesse Norman. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the leader very much and I thank the leader very much for his remarks and fully echo both their detail and their sentiment. As he says, accessibility should never be an afterthought. And in the case of the House of Commons, there is not just the common decency that would go with trying to support anyone with a disability or some need in that area.

It's also a vital aspect of being an effective parliamentarian that every single member of Parliament, whatever their background, whatever their personal needs, should be able to discharge the full capabilities that they have on behalf of their constituents. And that's why it's so central to what we do as a House. Let me with him welcome this report, and also very much welcome the response from the administration, which I think is a very constructive document, by and large, and we are grateful on the Committee for the constructive way in which the House administration engaged with the concerns that we had all the way through.

And I, too, would like to pay tribute, not just to the current and previous members of the committee, but also to the former Leader of the House and indeed to the current Leader of the House for for steering this ship home to, to, to port. I think a couple of reflections, if I may, just to add on this topic, of course, when we think about accessibility, we are it's very easy just to think of it in terms of the physical changes to the structure of the House of Commons.

But I think the leader was absolutely right, not just to think about those in terms of the members, but also, of course, of the visitors, the many other people, the staff, the people who use this building in many different ways, but also accessibility in relation to the availability of and understanding of what we're trying to do. Now. There's a there's a there's a tradition in British political thought that the House of Commons should have not merely an efficient aspect to it, as Badger would put it, but a dignified aspect to it and even a certain mystique.

And I think there is some truth. As a conservative, I would say this. I think there's some truth to that. I think there's some benefit to sticking with procedures that have proven their worth, even if the margin that requires a little bit of effort to understand them. But I don't think and therefore, as a result, I would be very suspicious and concerned about on behalf of the House as a as an institution, anything that I thought was dumbing down. But I don't think that's what's at stake here.

What's at stake here is intelligent simplifications of language and presentation, which allow members to understand from the get go how they can contribute constructively and effectively to what we are doing. And I must say, although they don't come out of this process, I do think that the changes that were put through in the in relation to the Order Paper by previous administration officials were very constructive and helpful. I think the Order Paper now is unrecognisably better than what it was. Certainly when I entered Parliament.

Just a few. I remind the Leader of the House just a few years ago. Let me say a couple of other things, if I may. I do think I mean, the report mentions our restoration and renewal, and it's important to keep these two things separate. The House will know that I'm an extreme sceptic on the restoration and renewal process, both as regards the content of what's being proposed, which I think is poorly conceived, and the lack of a fixed Budget, and also the process that it's been that's been followed, and the lack of what I would consider genuinely effective governance.

But it is important to recognise that this report talks about that in in order to reflect the importance of accessibility to that process, whatever decision the House makes on restoration renewal, and I hope it will go for a drastically different version of what we're talking about. It will be one that respects the need for full accessibility of this House and of the House of Lords. I don't think that's on the table or up for negotiation at all, but I do think that one key point about it is when we discuss this, we should not regard restoration renewal somehow

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as any substitute. I'm going to gently point out to the shadow Leader of the House and anybody else planning on contributing to this debate. It is not a debate on restoration and renewal. And whilst reference to it is, of course acceptable, perhaps is, of course acceptable, perhaps the substance of member's comments should not focus on that. Shadow Leader of the House.

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Leader of the House. Thank you. I'm afraid you may have been slightly misled by your officials. Madam Deputy Speaker, this document mentions restoration, renewal, and it specifically refers to it as something that the committee was invited to look forward to, and therefore, it's not inappropriate to mention it. And the point specifically I was making, if I could be allowed to make it, was that we should not defer changes out of an expectation that restoration, renewal, whatever it may be, will be a panacea.

We should be getting on with changes as soon as they can be. And one of the things that's so attractive about the work that the administration did in responding to this report and to the committee, was the energetic way in which they started the process of making changes, even now, when they were pointed out to them. And I remember the director general coming forward with several hundred potential changes that could be made on which the House administration had started to make progress. So let there be no delay, whatever the future may bring in making this House as genuinely open and accessible as it possibly can be.

And let me congratulate all the work that's been done so far and the officials who've made it happen, as well as the committee.
13:38
Daniel Francis Portrait Daniel Francis MP (Bexleyheath and Crayford, Labour)
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Daniel Francis thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. And at the outset, I'll declare my interest as a member of the Modernisation Committee, but also the chair of Committee, but also the chair of both the all party groups for wheelchair users and for disability wheelchair users and for disability equipment. So I come at this perspective, particularly from that perspective. And also, as many members know, as the parent of a wheelchair user and campaigned on a lot of those issues, both about accessibility and about changing places, toilets.

And we'll refer to those during my contributions. Now, shortly after my election to this place, I did ask those questions. What if my you know, I have twin daughters. One of my daughters couldn't access the building exactly as we all can, but one of mine can't access the building in the way we all can. What if she were to come here? And what are those most easily defined routes around the building? I was very lucky. I did have an accessibility tour, but I will continue to say is that isn't easily defined for staff or for our visitors.

What are those most accessible routes around the building to get from A to B? If you are here visiting, and I think that needs to continue to be something we seek to have that there is an. If you if you were arranging an event or if someone is visiting us here, how somebody who is a wheelchair user who has different access needs, what those main access routes are for them. Now within the report, I wasn't a member of the Modernisation Committee when the report was undertaken, but I am now within the report.

There are some recommendations. There are recommendations about external accessibility. Now, in my role as chair of the both the groups, but particularly as chair of the Wheelchair Users Group, we do continue to have problems. There are a very small number of rooms in this building which we can book because we have a significant number of wheelchair users that attend our meetings and we cannot, under the current procedures. And the Member for Glenelg is very aware of this. We've written to each other, and we've spoken about it at length.

In his role as chair of the administration committee. We cannot have that all-party group a booking system which allows us priority over other all-party groups. And that proves very difficult when there are only a very small number of rooms available. And it also proves very difficult when you're trying to provision a book rooms. And then the only room that that your users can use is then booked by somebody else. And our booking systems for the administration committee do need to look at that procedure.

The member is also aware that the All-party group for wheelchair users held an event last month at which the majority of speakers were wheelchair users, and yet we managed to set up a podium for the speakers to give their speeches from, and then had to reluctantly, reluctantly dismantle the podium in front of all the wheelchair users because it clearly was a completely inappropriate layout for the users in question and the way they they needed to address the event.

So, as the member is aware, and as I've said to the Modernisation Committee recently, actually, when we consider this report, there continue to be things we need to take through the House. And looking at that external accessibility, I also note the recommendations in the report on accessible formats. I was really glad recently when my hon. Friend from East Thanet had her local Mencap group from East Kent visit the building, and a number of members who've got some experience there went to speak to them and their experiences.

I was very privileged to go and speak to them, but clearly I think we always need to look at those formats. You know, is our our is our information rather available in an easy read format for them in the way it would be for any other visitor. And the way we then have those discussions with those users. Although she's not here today, I do particularly want to pay tribute to my hon. Friend from Penistone and Stocksbridge for the valuable work she's taken since her election, to make this building far more accessible, and from her viewpoint, how the building certainly wasn't in that place.

Lastly, I do want to refer to changing places toilets. And again, my friend from Gwen and I wandered down a few months ago to the National Portrait Gallery to look at what a more modern, accessible, changing places toilet looks like. Again, we have the issue that if you're a wheelchair user and you attend the All-party groups, which I chair, you come to portcullis House and there is no changing places toilet in portcullis House, the Changing Places toilet, which we have, is in the lower waiting hall and is to a standard that I would say is the original Changing Places standard of about 20 years ago.

The hoist is a mobile hoist, the ceiling. I've used it with my daughter. The ceiling is very low. If you're an adult trying to get on it, you'll most probably hit your head on the ceiling. It doesn't have a sink that's movable. In order to get a wheelchair underneath it. It is not to the standards we would expect of a Changing Places toilet, and that is the one place which the people that attend the All-party groups chair can use a toilet. And yet it still isn't.

So there's modern standards, and a member of those. I will continue to lobby him to have one of a modern standard in portcullis House and and colleagues across the house. And equally, that toilet needs to be to a modern standard. And we've seen great improvements, as I said, in the Changing Places debate in my name last year in that I remember, you know, my my daughter's got quadriplegic cerebral palsy. She'll be 13 this year. I remember at the outset of that journey how few changing places toilets there were ten years ago in this part of London and what great progress has been.

And that includes under the previous government. I will say, in terms of making sure in railway stations and tourist destinations locally, there are now changing places toilets, those ones at the National Portrait Gallery and the National Gallery down the road, the one that I actually had to work very hard and lobby to get in Ikea in Oxford Street and get the standard up to spec there. And yesterday, just yesterday, one Cat Smith Paul's Cathedral finally opened. But those other places where visitors should be welcomed to access the history and culture of our amazing city do have those facilities and yet this place does not.

And we need to get that there, both at portcullis and to a more modern standard here in the palace itself. So I thank the committee for its work. I'll continue to pressure on those areas in my role as Modernisation Committee and with others, but we do need to really acknowledge still that if you think about how other workplaces have brought themselves into the 21st century, there are some aspects of work we still do need to carry out. Thank you.
13:45
Wendy Chamberlain Portrait Wendy Chamberlain MP (North East Fife, Liberal Democrat)
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Madam Deputy Speaker Liberal Democrat spokesperson Wendy Chamberlain. Thank you very much, Chamberlain. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I rise to speak on behalf of the Liberal Democrats, both as a member of the Modernisation Committee itself, but also at one point during this inquiry, a witness within it. And I think that's true also for the Leader of the House, and that he gave evidence to the committee before he became the chair of it. And the work we do in this place is, is complicated.

Sometimes it's it's more complicated than it needs to be. But I think sometimes we do revel in it. And I'm very conscious, Madam Deputy Speaker, that we're having this debate during the final stages of the parliamentary session ping pong, where, as an opposition MP, I have been leading my colleagues to vote no because we disagree with the government's motion to disagree with the Lords amendments. Sometimes we make this place overly complicated, but the what's and why's of why we do things externally don't often do not make sense, but I will maintain and agree with the shadow Leader of the House and indeed the leader that once you are in it, there are definitely things that can be done better or differently.

But that is absolutely not the case for all. And we need to always be aware of not throwing the baby out with the bathwater in terms of how we consider what we do. I think another thing to say is, is we have had over the last two parliaments. I came into Parliament in December 2019, is we have had a huge turnover in the number of legislators, both in 2019 and 2024. And so taking that time to understand why things are the way they are and what needs to be improved does take time.

I want to make my remarks in line with the three sections that were in the Modernisation Committee report, and I would echo others who have commended the administration of the House for their response to the report. The constructive way and the reality is, is in many circumstances, particularly around accessibility more generally, they know fine well what the issues are in this place, and they are as keen to ensure that they make visible progress on those issues as we indeed are in the committee. And indeed, parliamentarians are more widely.

But I have to say that the report summary talked about clear and prompt action, but we do need to acknowledge that it will not be quick. And I just wanted to touch on the experience that we had yesterday. I am the chair of the All-Party parliamentary Group for pans Pandas a Paediatric Condition. Have I mentioned I am running the London Marathon for them a week on Sunday, but we did have one of the young people who came in for the round table in advance of a backbench business debate we're hoping to have in a few weeks time.

It's really important that we heard directly from those young people in terms of their experience of their condition, and one of them had used a wheelchair. And as part of the day, my fantastic team here in Westminster, Catherine and Claudia had incorporated a tour into their experience. And the reality is, is that one young person in a wheelchair had a completely different experience from everybody else. There is no access to Saint Stephen's Hall or the top of the Westminster steps. That meant that she could not see part of the tour.

The movable ramp for the few stairs from central lobby to Stephen's Hall, which could be used when it is needed, is an option. The accessible lift route is really small. The young person yesterday one of those quite mobile wheelchairs, but I've been doing bus journeys in my constituency recently with wheelchair users and I mean, the technology is advancing significantly and the space and access needed is not. And then just very simple things like the carpet outside the accessible lift is really deep pile.

It makes it really difficult to move things. And I have to say, in terms of the evidence that we heard as a committee and the evidence that we heard from people working here on the estate was pretty arresting in terms of the difficulties that they had. The clerk, who is no longer able to progress in his career because he cannot sit at the desk there in front of you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and therefore his development opportunities are restricted. The member of staff for an MP who started on the speaker's internship, which is a way of getting people from different backgrounds into Parliament, who described that the internship lasted 12 months.

He was fortunate to go and work for the same MP afterwards. It took 15 months for the nearest wheelchair accessible toilet to be accessible to him because he could not open the door before that point. That was shameful for us to hear as a committee, and it shows that we have so much more to do, and I think it is important that we remember Parliament is a place of work and it is a place of democracy. And when we do consider the R and R proposals, I agree with the shadow leader.

We need to keep accessibility at the forefront, regardless of what our overall opinions on R and R might be. Moving on to procedure and processes. I remember meeting with the previous Leader of the House, the hon. Member for Manchester Central, to discuss this committee. When the government were looking at setting it up, and the equivalent we came up to was or I came up with on terms of how I thought about the committee, was my time in the police in terms of a tasking and coordinating group.

The remit of the committee is wide. Our makeup is unique with the Leader of the House as the chair and the decisions on some elements of the work that we have looked at does belong to other committees, and we should be able to task and coordinate with them accordingly. I think it is right that decisions around call lists, electronic voting, which as we all know, we had issues with this week, and proxies, those inquiries are rightly being led and reported by the procedures committee.

And I know that recently the committee our committee has also looked at virtual Select Committee appearances, too. But the evidence that we heard from disabled MPs demonstrate that there is absolutely more that can be done to accommodate. And I think also, and this has been my own experience as a Chief Whip of late, is that there are practices that we have utilised in the past, that in some ways we have kind of forgotten about, such as nodding through. Now, I am not suggesting that we go back to what's depicted in the James Graham play this House, by the way, but there is absolutely accommodations that can and should be made, and we should be constantly challenging ourselves on that regard.

And certainly that is what I see my role as Chief whip for my group is to make those challenges and ask those questions. The other thing I thought about in reading the committee's report was just my own reflections on Covid. And I was obviously, as I said, a new MP in 2019. And I do think that there is absolutely no doubt that there was an impact on the relationships that were built here in Parliament as a result of the practices we had during Covid, in terms of how we participated in the chamber, virtually gave no opportunity to learn how to intervene.

But also just those conversations in the Tea room as well as in the voting lobby. It was quite easy to become siloed in your parliamentary groups. And I think all of us here know well that when this place is at its best, is when it works in a cross-party and constructive way to make things progress. Moving on to the last section, in terms of communicating what the House does, generally, I think the recommendations are attempting to strike the right balance between the traditions of this House.

I say that as a trustee of the history of Parliament, trust and the need for Parliament and its processes to be understandable to the wider public, there is clearly more to do, but I think it is important that we continue to continually assess whether that balance is being struck correctly, and I do want to highlight the work of the engagement and education team. Madam Deputy Speaker, I recently attended an event here in Parliament where a headteacher from my constituency, Dairsie Primary School, Sarah Donald, is on the UK Parliament Teacher Ambassador program, which will give her the opportunity to be an accredited partner of the Education and Engagement team.

That education and understanding of our democracy and how it works is really, really important. And at the moment when we're in Scottish Parliament elections, knowing the difference between what an MSP can do and an MP can do is quite important indeed. Last week I visited Busy Bees Nursery in Strathkinness to talk on the topic of people who help us transfers. It's really quite difficult to explain to four year olds what the job of an MP is. And I have to say, when I visited my child's primary nursery school a number of years ago in police officer uniform, I was much, much more popular.

But to conclude, Madam Deputy Speaker, the Modernisation Committee is an important feature of this current Parliament. We can and should be in the position to continually review the progress on this, and we should continue to do so as this Parliament progresses. I am very pleased that the administration of the House has engaged with the report so constructively, and I look forward to revisiting this topic in due course. Thank Chris Vince.
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Chris Vince Portrait Chris Vince MP (Harlow, Labour )
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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank the Leader of the House and the Shadow Leader, and indeed and the Shadow Leader, and indeed the Lib Dem Chief Whip, who will be absolutely thrashing me in the London Marathon in ten days time, I have no doubt. For starting this debate today and also, like Leader of the House, pay tribute to the former Leader of the House, the. My hon. Friend. My right hon. Friend for Manchester Central, who chaired a number of the meetings when I had the pleasure of sitting on the modernisation committee and.

Can I also just recognise some of the comments made by my hon. Friend from Bedford and Crayford, who often talks about this. This. This subject with such passion, but I think he makes some really vital points, particularly with regards those changing places toilets, which I hope that the House administration are listening. But also I'm sure the Leader of the House is listening to as well. I would just quickly like to thank all hon. Friends who participated to this. The evidence sessions, particularly my hon.

Friend from Battersea, my hon. Friend from Penistone and Stocksbridge and hon. Members for South Northamptonshire and also the hon. Member for Torbay. And I think I should personally thank the former member for Harlow for his contribution. He said during the evidence session that he found it so difficult to spend long periods of time in debate. He would come in, do an intervention and then leave. So I've learnt something from him. No, but in all sincerity, I think he made a really, really important point.

And and I think that the the the shadow leader has made a really important point that it's really important. The accessibility issues don't impact the ability of MPs to do their jobs in this House. But it's also vitally important that prospective MPs aren't put off standing for election because they see this place as being inaccessible. And whatever my political differences might be with Robert, I would absolutely recognise he was a brilliant MP for Harlow and I. I seek to emulate in terms of the work he did, and it would have been a real tragedy if he was put off standing for election in the first place, because he felt he couldn't access democracy in the way that he was able to do.

However, Madam Deputy Speaker, it isn't just about US MPs and I think it's important to recognise we've got some really important contributions from clerks of the House, of it, from MP staff, from. I've just pressed my button. I'm so sorry. I'm going to get a phone call in a minute from somebody. From MP staff, house staff and members of the other place. I think there is a danger of us who don't have accessibility issues, to truly appreciate some of the challenges of those that do.

And I would, of course, like to thank those clerks who brought together this really important report. Before I make reference specifically to parts of the port, I'd like to say that, like everyone in this house and the other place, I want us to get this right, and for everyone who works in this place, not to have barriers in place to do their jobs as effectively as possible, as many members have already spoken have mentioned, this report comes over in three parts.

It talks about the built environment, it talks about procedural procedures, and it talks about communication. And as the report rightly recognises, in the first instance, there is a realisation that this estate compromises of a complex combination of buildings which were constructed in a patchwork manner, and this built environment can create physical and psychological challenges for physiological challenges for its users. I think that's really important to recognise. One of the conclusions on the subject of accessibility is that we need to learn from disabled people about their experiences visiting and engaging with Parliament.

And I think, again, we can have cross-party agreement on that. And as briefly mentioned by the Leader of the House, my hon. Member, my hon. Friend from Penistone and Stocksbridge made reference to the challenges opening doors, including in PCH, and actually PCH is nowhere near as old as this building. So really, we've got no excuse to have such challenges. And I know particularly those toilet doors, we heard a lot about those toilet doors in PCH throughout the debate, didn't we? I'm pleased to see there's been some positive action taken to make the the space, the estate more accessible, and I but I urge, as the report does, the establishment of an accessibility group to include disabled MPs to consider those wider issues.

But I would also probably add to that on the back of what my hon. Friend from Bexley and Crayford said, to think about disabled visitors to this place and how their voice can be heard within that as well. On page 22 of the report Madam Deputy Speaker, it talks about safety and security as being the main focus of the House and Minister House of Commons Administration. And of course we'd all agree with that, but it should not be at the expense of accessibility, and nor really does it need to be.

I think we need to think about how, again, this space supports everybody in it on procedure. Madam Deputy Speaker, I promise I won't make my speech too long as I've gotten quite a lot, quite a bit. I'm someone who has grown to really enjoy the procedures in this place. I'm a relatively new MP, but as members across the House will know, I spend quite a lot of time in this chamber. My part of the of the bench is actually slightly more worn out than generally than the bits around it, and I've really enjoyed other MPs coming to me and asking me questions about procedures.

It's made me feel quite important. But actually, you know, when it comes to procedures, it shouldn't be a big secret as to how as to how this place works. So making sure that everybody, particularly those that have accessibility issues, that have reasonable adjustment requirements, understand the procedures is really important. And I think I would echo what the report says about the importance of making sure there are formal and informal routes for MPs who require reasonable adjustment. And this is particularly this is essential.

I know there was there was there was a lot of talk about call lists. I have found a really good solution to the issue of call lists. It's. The member of Strangford has the same solution as me. Talk a lot and you end up getting called last. Although I haven't on on on this occasion. However, I think it's important to recognise actually that there are call lists as such. Although they do, they they do change. And actually I think the sort of compromise solution here can be that actually those members who do have reasonable adjustments can, can, can be told where they will be.

And then the rest of us can, can, can proceed as normal. I think that's, that's, that's a fairer way to do it, but keeps that sort of deals with the issues that those who don't want call lists have sort of raised in terms of in-person voting. I agree the usefulness of that. I think the Health Secretary might not agree with, because I was lobbying him for quite a number of votes on various issues that affected Harlow. But it is a really important that we have in person voting.

But I recognise when we have some of the situations we've seen this week where we've had up to 12 votes in a row, there are real challenges for those people, so I would who need reasonable adjustments. I would just just make reference to that and absolutely support the point made about proxy voting and, and the potential use of a digital system in that. And also the recommendation made about reasonable adjustment cards. Finally, on language, I don't want to sound too much like a traditionist.

I do like the fact that we have traditional parliamentary language. I think actually the shadow of the House probably got that about right with his. I don't think it's just because he's a conservative, but I think he's right. We want to keep some of those traditions, but but make it accessible as well. I think there's absolutely a compromise to be there. Simple simplification, but also remembering the customs and the history of this place is absolutely achievable. Madam Deputy Speaker. I've spoken far more than I expected on this issue, but it is really important to me and really important to my constituents.

You want more? OK, but I will finally say it's hugely important that democracy isn't just for the few. It's so important that everyone has the opportunity to take part in this country's democracy and in this place, like probably no other, is a beacon for our democracy in this country. Actually, it's probably a beacon for democracy across the world, if we're honest. And I don't want there to be barriers for anybody working here. And that's hugely important for MPs, as it is for members of the other House, as it is for for clerks and the House staff, as it is for the people that work for us as MPs.

So I welcome this report. I think it's the start of a conversation, not the end of a conversation, and I hope that we can move forward so that there can be more members like my predecessor in this place, feeling confident and comfortable to participate in the democracy of this country to the fullest amount. Thank you, Richard.
14:03
14:04
Adam Jogee Portrait Adam Jogee MP (Newcastle-under-Lyme, Labour)
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I call Adam Jogee. >> I call Adam Jogee. >> Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'm grateful to the gentleman for his pithy contribution to the debate, as I'm sure as I'm sure, madam, finishing too early is not always a good thing. But anyway, Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to start by extending my condolences to my constituent from back home in Newcastle-under-Lyme and a great friend of ours, Rosie and her mother died in County Waterford and the island yesterday.

I want to pay tribute to her mother, Mrs. Joy Morrissey, to Rosie, to her husband, and to their sons and all the family. And I also Madam Speaker since there's so many pithy contributions before me and we have till 5:00, I'd like to place on record my respect for Her late Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, as we discussed in leader's questions, next Tuesday will mark the 100th anniversary of Her Majesty's birth. And so it's a fitting opportunity for us to remember, reflect and give thanks for long life of service to our United Kingdom and the Commonwealth.

This is an important debate, and I hope people don't think that the number of colleagues here means that people don't take it seriously. But I'm grateful to all members of the Modernisation Committee from across the House for their work and for taking on the most Herculean task of making this place fit for the 21st century and creating the best means through which we can deliver for the people who sent us here. I will focus my comments on page two procedures and part two.

Excuse me, procedures and processes. And within that, page two, page 25, page 30 and page 11 of the response. I would like to acknowledge the work of my right hon. Friend the Member for Manchester Central. For all that she did while she served this House as leader, I should declare an interest. I suppose I'm a PS and I acknowledge the right hon. Gentleman from Tynemouth for picking up the baton and for running with it. Now my office will tell you, Madam Deputy Speaker, as will my wife and family, that in many ways I'm an analogue politician in a digital age or now AI age.

I much prefer the written word and signing those letters by hand over putting some app on my phone to record 30s of myself speaking into a screen. And so in many ways, it would seem odd that I've taken such a close interest in both this report. The recent report from the Procedures Committee on Proxy voting, and more generally, the measures being taken to open our National Parliament to all who work here and to take it to the 21st century. Like my hon.

Friend from Harlow, I broadly like the customs and practices of this place. They are age old and they broadly work. Indeed, they've been adopted by nations across the Commonwealth who develop and have developed their own Westminster systems in the Caribbean, Australia, Canada and on the African continent too. So I wouldn't be one advocating for radical changes that would change how we do things. But I am willing to advocate for sensible and respectful changes that allow us to do our jobs properly and more effectively.

Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, Everyone has good days and bad days at work and at home. That is the nature of the world that we live in. It's always been that way and that isn't going to change at work. Some things go well in our case. Sometimes you win and you hope you keep on winning, and it's those victories that allow us to serve in this place. And what a pleasure and privilege it is to do so. But as we speak for our people, as we tackle injustice wherever we find them, and as we work every day to get things done, no member of this House should be forced to choose between family and doing our job, honouring the trust of local people who sent us here and holding Ministers to account.

The fact that I was forced to make such a choice. On Friday, the 20th of June 2025 is something that will stay with me forever. And it remains, I'm sad to say, the worst day I've had in this job. Now. My wife received a phone call on the 15th of June to tell her that her father had taken. Unwell after many years of living with Parkinson's, and it appeared the following Tuesday that he was reaching the end of his life. And if we want to say goodbye, we had to get there as soon as possible.

And so we did. On Friday, the 20th of June, this House was considering the assisted dying bill, an issue the most important to all of us and to our constituents to now, whatever our views, we all wanted to have our voices heard and to be able to take part in this most important of debates. I asked my whips if epoxy could be sorted so I could represent my constituents and also be with my family. I was told that epoxy would not be possible because it was a private member's bill, and so the only option available to me was to seek my own pairing arrangement with another colleague in the House to say I was cross, Madam Deputy Speaker, is an understatement, but I took on board that response and went on my way to find my own pair.

It was clear at that time that my father in law wasn't going to get better. And so I asked colleagues in my party and on the opposition benches if they would pair with me. I asked the sponsor of the bill. She said she wasn't able to help. I asked another colleague who, when I did, said and I quote, I won't name the person, but I think it's important. I say this that she couldn't help me because she was doing numbers for the pro side.

And so she'd be gleeful that I couldn't be there because there's one less vote against the bill, but for the stress and hassle caused, no colleague should be forced to find their own pair. When a loved one is dying. That is insane and frankly, inhumane. If a teacher can't be at work, you get a supply teacher. And we all remember the days when the supply teacher was in charge. How that can't happen in the mother of parliaments is inexplicable. We have got to get a grip of the proxy vote system.

Madam Deputy Speaker. Nobody wants to let people off or change how we do things in a radical way. As I said at the beginning of my remarks, we don't want to stop people being here to vote, but we need to be sensible, compassionate and respectful. We need to get a grip because nobody should be forced to experience what I had to. Having failed to get a pair despite trying really hard to do so, and the fact that my father in law was still on the journey to the end of his life, and having spoken to my family, I came to vote on that Friday because if I hadn't, my constituents wouldn't have been represented in that debate.

As I left this place. To go back to my wife and my in-laws. My wife called me to tell me her father had died. I'll never forget that phone call, Madam Deputy Speaker. And I only received that phone call because I wasn't able to get a proxy nor able to get a pair. So that remains the worst day I've had in this job. The leader, the shadow leader and the right hon. Member for North East Fife all referenced that all members should be able to do their jobs properly.

And that's true, but not at the expense of our family commitments, not least as a loved one reaches the end of their life. It's not lost on me. Madam Deputy Speaker that we were voting on assisted dying, but I was given no assistance by this house and powerful people in it to do my job and to be with my family when they needed me most. Now nobody wants a sob story. I fully accept that. But this is my experience, and I hope that we will look at how we can do things differently.

So nobody has to experience what we have. We need to look at the eligibility of members being able to seek proxy, because in my view, the current eligibility is far, far too narrow and needs to be looked at. And I, I read the report from the procedures committee, and I hope that together, the procedures and modernisation committees will be able to get us to the right place and sooner rather than later. For Madam Deputy Speaker, I say this to be helpful, not to seek sympathy, but to ensure that we finally make our Parliament compassionate and fit for purpose.



**** Possible New Speaker ****

Yeah. Sarah Coombes Deputy. Speaker And can I start by

**** Possible New Speaker ****

Speaker And can I start by paying tribute to my hon. Friend, the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme for that very, very powerful speech? And I agree wholeheartedly with And I agree wholeheartedly with what he says about the need for reform with the proxy system and Preston humanity to be introduced Preston humanity to be introduced in circumstances like this. I was proud to serve on the modernisation committee and be part of the evidence gathering for this report. evidence gathering for this report. The committee very much appreciated all those who took the time and effort to submit and give oral evidence, including Mr Speaker, Madam Deputy Speaker, the wider team and many members of House staff as well as campaigners.

And in particular, I'd like to pay tribute to the Member for Penistone and Stocksbridge, who's been mentioned already today, who is a tireless advocate for disability rights and access. And it's thanks to her advocacy that the door handles across the estate are now properly usable by those with disabilities. Where before, as we heard earlier, many disabled people were unable to go to the toilet unaided, which was scandalous. In this place, many people often talk up a tension between modernisation and tradition, which does undoubtedly exist.

But the role of this committee is to find a way through that does justice for those who have every right to be properly represented here. And this
14:13
Sarah Coombes Portrait Sarah Coombes MP (West Bromwich, Labour)
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Parliament, I think, as has actually been mentioned, is fairly unique in that over half of all MPs unique in that over half of all MPs were new in 2024. I think the highest turnover of MPs in any Parliament before many of us came Parliament before many of us came here. From modern workplaces where accessibility, inclusivity, hybrid working productivity and efficiency standards far exceed this place. And I think a lot of us felt coming And I think a lot of us felt coming to work here that we were walking back in time, not just because of the ancient building, but because of the way some of the processes here work.

Now, the report of the committee is very comprehensive. We've had excellent speeches about the accessibility of the building, but I'd like to build on what my hon. Friend was talking about in terms of the accessibility of parliamentary procedures, in particular speaking, bobbing and voting. I also want to mention gender representation in terms of speaking. And one, one point I'd like to make before going through these is that the staff here do excellent work and are very considerate of trying to work with MPs to help us do our jobs and speak for our constituents.

Now, the reason I wanted to speak in this debate today was to put on record in this House some of the powerful and eye opening evidence we heard during this report process from current and former members. I won't speak for all other members of the committee, but I honestly found some of the evidence we heard shocking. Unless you're an MP, it's hard to understand how it works. Speaking in this chamber, which is our number one job as members of Parliament. But for those listening who don't quite understand how it works here, an MP indicates their desire to speak to the speaker's office.

You, Bob, and you come and wait in this chamber until your turn to be called. This can sometimes mean waiting for 3 to 4 hours, sometimes more, sometimes up to six hours. Now I have learned much sitting in this chamber listening to other members speak, but the process certainly does have a disproportionate impact on some members. And I'll just mention a few examples of impact from our evidence sessions, because these examples really stayed with me. One MP with severe physical disabilities told us how difficult they found waiting hours and hours to speak in a debate, and they felt physically exhausted by the time they were called, many hours later, and they felt they just couldn't do justice to what they hoped to say on behalf of their constituents.

Another MP with musculoskeletal issues sat on these benches for so long waited to speak. They were in agony for days afterwards. Another MP told us how voting ten plus times over hours left them practically unable to walk in the days afterwards, and one woman MP in the very early stages of pregnancy, feeling extremely ill, waited hours to speak and didn't, with all fairness, want to confide in the speaker's team that this was the situation. Another woman MP told me about experiencing pregnant, experiencing pregnancy loss in this house and feeling that she had to go and disclose this to her whips, which is not something that I think anyone would really want.

We had one evidence session with disabled MPs and a member of the House of Lords in attendance said he found it completely shocking. The disparity in reasonable adjustments in the other place and here now, I'm very glad that many of these issues were taken up by the recommendations in this report. For example, the introduction of a reasonable adjustments card to save a seat for disabled members, which has been an issue previously, the potential use of a reasons room as a way to take part in voting.

That's inclusive but not so exhausting. And also a new disabled toilet near the chamber. But I do hope that some of these wider issues do continue to be looked at, because we heard very strongly in the evidence that the best processes are the ones which are accessible by design, rather than ones that force disabled people or those with conditions to constantly ask for exemptions or having to explain themselves. I know that many who submitted to our inquiry were disappointed at the outcome of the Procedure Committee report and to call lists, which would have made a significant difference in providing more certainty to those people who have conditions but who don't want to disclose them.

Also, people who have to take medicine with meals and things like that. I also want to mention voting briefly, which is something at the heart of what we do in this House. And I do think that more surely can be done in 2026, so that we can find a way to preserve all the good bits of MPs being physically together and voting together on some votes, while enormously speeding up proceedings using tech, particularly on the days where you have, as we are at the moment, ten, 12, 14 votes, perhaps in one day.

I also want to make a point about the gender split of speaking as the one thing that MPs can do that no one else can do, is speak in this House on behalf of our constituents. But if you look at the speaking statistics, all is not equal on that front. Women make up 41% of all MPs. Yet if you do a rough calculation, as the House of Commons Library has done for me, just 35% of contributions made in this chamber are from women in the Lords, where 34% of members are women, 41% of all contributions are from women members.

So I do wonder what we can learn in terms of how the structure of speaking in the Lords works. And I note they do have a form of call list for some things that seems to be beneficial to women's voices there. Now I realise I'm still a relative newbie in this house, and I'm sure that MPs views change over time as we experience different iterations of different parliaments. But I do hope that in addition to the good changes that have already been made to this report, there will be further progress in the future.
14:18
Jesse Norman Portrait Rt Hon Jesse Norman MP (Hereford and South Herefordshire, Conservative)
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Hey there. >> With leave the house I call Shadow Leader Jesse Norman. >> Thank you very much indeed, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'm Madam Deputy Speaker, and I'm grateful for the Leader of the House for the opportunity. Just to say a couple of words about the excellent contributions that we've had to this debate. I would, if I may, just pick up a couple of particular points. The point made by the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford about properly accessible toilets.

I don't think anything more needs to be said about that. I think is absolutely right about that. The hon. Lady for North East Fife on the diversity of the experience of different views. Wheelchair users, I thought was a very well taken point. I was very grateful to the Member for Harlow for the very gracious words that he spoke in respect of his predecessor, the brilliant Robert Halfon on the Member for Boston and Skegness I. I welcome his his support for the sceptical case in relation to restoration, renewal, I.

I would like to ask the leader whether you might be possible to have two debates, what you might call a digestive debate to discuss the the actual process of R and R and how it will work and what it might be involved, and then a debate on the motion, because I think it's such a big number, 40 billion, that it would be helpful for the House to to consider it as well as consider the motion itself. And then in relation to Newcastle under Lyme.

I thank the hon. Member very much for that very moving remarks he made about his own experience on the private member's bill for the assisted dying bill. And finally, in the lady from West Bromwich reminded us how difficult it is to replicate the specific experience of, particularly disabled MPs, and how important it is to listen to what they've said. So with all that in mind, I thank the committee and the leader for all the work they've done and the administration for the response they've given.

Thank you.
14:20
Alan Campbell Portrait Rt Hon Sir Alan Campbell MP, Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Tynemouth, Labour)
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Peter Lamb thank you. members for their contributions? Today's debate, and I hope to take a little bit of time in responding to the makers. I think this has been a a relatively short but a very useful debate. Actually. Let me first of all, comment on the speech of the shadow Leader of the House and thank him for his remarks, and in particular, the way that he made them. It is abundantly evident from the time that we have worked together that he cares deeply about this place.

And I share that view. He knows that I do, and we are, to some extent, adversaries in a system which is adversarial, but at the heart of it, we share a deep respect and love for this place, not least because he knows that we're both passing through. And it was here before we got here. And it will be here after we after we leave. And that also means that we work on the committee. Well, I think and what has struck me in the relatively short time in which I've chaired the committee is that it does work in a cross-party way.

In fact, it works in a non-party way. And I am sometimes surprised when I look around the room and I see the the varied experience and the varied party labels of people in the room. It's amazing how many times we actually get to the right conclusion and we actually understand the problem and analyse it and come to the best place. And that in this place is not as rare as people think. And it's actually why this place works very well indeed. I agree with him absolutely in his concern about dumbing down.

I absolutely agree that that can be a problem if we are not careful. It is not about dumbing down, it's about making it more accessible, and it's about making sure that people can access this place, but also the way that we do things. Well, I don't agree with him and he knows that I don't agree with him. We'll be on different sides in the restoration and renewal situation. But as has already been pointed out, this short debate today is about now.

It's about how we conduct ourselves and indeed for the foreseeable future. Because even if the House does take a particular view on R and R and move forward, it's still quite a long time before we will see some of these issues come to fruition. But I do believe that accessibility has to be at the core of what we're doing now, but it also has to be at the core of what happens after a decision is made on our. And let me turn now to the speech, to the excellent speech by my hon.

Friend the Member for Bexleyheath and Crayford. Commend him on the excellent work that he does in his all party groups, and I know that that comes from his deep, deep personal interest in these matters, his experience and his commitment and the fact that he brings that personal experience on these issues is actually important to this debate, because what is abundantly clear is that it is important, not that people observe these things from a distance and see it in their own way, but that actually we learn from a position of experience.

And I very much value his contribution to modernisation. He is a a strong advocate, he is a strong voice, and he will tell you if he has a strong view. And I absolutely commend him for that. And I give him a commitment, because the story that he told, the true story that he told about issues around booking is not acceptable. And we and I give him a commitment that we will look into that and see what more can be done. The story of what happened at that recent event illustrates the problem.

That meant that this report was this investigation, and this report was absolutely important. But I will return to this point in my closing remarks, which is this is a work in progress. This report is a step along the way. It is not the final point on this. And like other members, he paid tribute to the work of our hon. Friend from Penistone and Stocksbridge. And I know from personal experience on matters of policy and everything else. Again, she's a very strong advocate on these matters and I value her contribution and her knowledge on these matters very much indeed.

He raises the issue of changing places, toilet facilities, and interestingly points to the National Portrait Gallery. I have found out more than found out. I've actually participated to some extent. That is Leader of the House. I am indeed a trustee of the National Portrait Gallery. So the next time that I visit and once again remind them that a former member for Tynemouth, who was the longest serving woman MP, Dame Irene Ward, is in fact in the National Portrait Gallery.

But since I recently surpassed the length of time that she served in that seat, I'm just. I'm just letting them know that there's a certain there's a certain logic to all of this, but so far they've they've, they've they've not really taken the they've not really taken the hint, but I won't be wearing the hat that she is wearing in the photograph. Well, it'll be very popular. Let me turn now to the Member for North East Fife from Lib Dem spokesperson. And she does draw from current experience.

If when we enter this period of a parliamentary session around ping pong and Lords amendments, it is it is it is a difficult course that we have to navigate. And I don't want to stress this too much, but I've been around quite a long time and I can assure you that I have to go to the clerk's every time we get to Lords amendments, and I have to ask them whether or not I'm actually right in what I think. Because it is. It is.

I'm not going to say every time you you navigate this, you you get a different answer to a different place. But it is notoriously difficult. But she's right. There are things that we should be able to do in order to assure members of or inform members of where we got to. I agree with her remarks about thinking about the way that we do things and why we we do things, because I think it's really important. And other members pick this up.

Actually, it is important that this place evolves in the way that we conduct our affairs, but we also have to be careful about how we do that. We need to be, if you don't mind me saying on this occasion, conservative with a small C, there should be a good reason before we actually change things, right? I fear that she may be correct in that some of the changes will not be quick, but that doesn't mean, and I know she accepts this, that doesn't mean that we don't get on with it.

We do get on with it. And we, we, we knock down the barriers that exist to that. And we, we, we can't where we can. We do quicken it up. And yes, I should point out that she has mentioned on a number of occasions that she's running the London Marathon, and I commend her for that. And, and the hard sell that she has on sponsorship. I would encourage people to do that because not least like me, most of us won't be doing that.

But she is, and that's great. Modernisation Committee it's it's right that we she talked about the way that the Modernisation Committee works. It is right that we share a space with other committees, but they bring in expertise to what we're doing. And I think that works quite well, actually, because we can and we do work with other committees, and we do work effectively with those committees. And my final point on this really well, two points, really. The first is the impact of Covid. She's absolutely right.

Covid had a massive effect on the way that this place works, and we've spent a great deal of time trying to get back some of the things that were lost during Covid. They just were the, the, the way in which this place doesn't just conduct its votes and things that didn't just change. It was, for example, the way that speeches were made. And I for one, when most people vacated this place, apart from the whips and we went to to virtual speeches, I expected that nobody would want to speak.

In fact, everybody wanted to speak because they were speaking from their kitchens and they were making three minute speeches. And as a result, with all due respect to new members, when they come here, there are far more people that try to get in on debates and far more time limits now, because it's quite unusual to listen to a speech which lasts apart from this one that lasts no more than three minutes. And so there are lasting effects to that. However, and I would say this to her because I think there are lessons not just for this, for other things that we do, we're not going back to what we regarded as normal.

What we need to do is we need to move forward and make things actually better. And I just want to endorse what she said about the education team and the daunting experience of in the great job they do, particularly with younger children, but the daunting experience of trying to explain to younger children how this place works. And very quickly, I had that experience when children from Marine Park First School came down recently. Before I spoke to them, they'd been in Saint James's Park having their packed lunch, and I expected the first question to be as it was, have you ever met the king? Or how much do you get paid? And the first question was, have you ever had your sandwich stolen by a duck? Which which kind of brought politics down to a different level? But but I hadn't actually I hadn't, but unfortunately the the child had.

And she clearly remembered that. Let me turn. Now I need to speed up. Let me turn now to the Member for Harlow, and I agree with him in his appreciation of the work of the former member from Harlow. We didn't agree. And political lines, but we learned a great deal from him. He was an excellent member of Parliament. I also agree with my hon. Friend about accessibility for all, because it's not just about making this place accessible, it's about making politics accessible.

It's not just about the people that are here now who often have a greater struggle than than some of us had to get here. It's about people in the future that might want to get here, but might think that there are literally physical barriers in their way, and everybody has a right to come here to be, to get here, to at least to aspire to be here, whether the electorate decides that they're coming or not. And it's a very interesting point that he made about portcullis House, because actually portcullis House to some of us is very new.

And yet actually it was the very place that was identified as being inaccessible. So this is a battle which continues over a long period of time. And I echo his point because it was raised not just by him, but I think my friend from Newcastle-under-Lyme said it as well. That actually procedure is important. And the history of this place is, is important. And it's quite interesting that when new members turn up and I was one once, that you think that that things are going to change rapidly and and the House is going to change.

And actually when you settle in a bit, you realise what, what why we do what we do. And I think that's why we need to proceed at speed with some of these changes. But we also need if it's not the opposite, we need to proceed with a degree of caution as well. Let me now turn to the hon. Gentleman from Boston and Skegness, and I look forward to his contribution when the debate comes on R&R, I thought I think he thought that this was what this was going to be about.

But let me tell him that there will be a debate on this. I can't tell him when. To some extent it's already been postponed, but it's postponed for the right reason. It's not postponed for the wrong reason. He and I will be on the opposite side of this. He will. But but I want members to have absorbed the report. And it's a big, far reaching report. It's a really powerful report, actually, and I want that to sink in. But I am very conscious, and it's going to be brought into greater focus in the in the difficult international and economic situation that we're living through and about how we spend taxpayers money and how taxpayers money is spent comes into greater focus actually in that situation.

So I think it's absolutely right that the Public Accounts Committee is looking at this. I think it's right that the Nao is looking at this. I think it's right that we get reports from them. And we we look at that and we we see in a more authoritative way from them. And it's their job to do this. We see whether or not the proposals that are on the table are ones that we want to back in that form, or whether we want to change it.

But I've given this work, I give him this word in the house, this word. Well, two things. One, they will there will be a debate. And secondly, MP at this end. And then the Lord, we will decide it won't be it won't be a decision taken behind closed doors.
14:33
Jesse Norman Portrait Rt Hon Jesse Norman MP (Hereford and South Herefordshire, Conservative)
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I'm very grateful to you for giving way. He might not have been giving way. He might not have been in this chair, but I suggested that it might be possible to have two debates, a kind of digestive debate debates, a kind of digestive debate and then a decision debate, even if one of those is in the back benches, support?

**** Possible New Speaker ****

I certainly support people having their say and and being informed by debate, so I'll give it some thought. I'm not rejecting it out of hand, but there will be a moment, there will be a moment and moment, there will be a moment and there will be a motion, and we will have to decide. And as I say, I will be on the different side of will be on the different side of this, because this is and again, it goes back to what I've said about this remarkable place.

This is an this remarkable place. This is an iconic building. It is part of a Unesco heritage site. It is despite how legal the terms are, it's not owned by the government, it's owned by the nation. And time and time again, despite the fact that people will look at the numbers and the numbers are eye watering, I give them that and the timescale is eye watering too. But it doesn't. It doesn't save us money by delaying the the, the vote and, and either deciding to get on with it or not getting on with it, get on with it.

But time and time again when people were asked, they want to see this place survive. It is the crucible of their politics. They want to be able to access it safely and it is not safe in many ways currently. So I do think we're going to have to address this. But I give him my my word, and I give the House my word that we will be having a vote at some point in time. Let me turn now to the contribution by my hon.

Friend from Newcastle upon line, and say that I do remember the events that he talked about. I am sorry that we were not able to find a way through that situation. And he he, he raised the different aspects of why he felt he was in that situation. And I do think we need to go away and reflect upon that. I would say that the the proxy system is evolving. I do think that we should take away examples and see whether or not we need to make some of the changes it was, and this is not an excuse for what happened.

It was a set of unusual circumstances in the sense that it wasn't just a private member's bill, it was a hotly contested private member's bill. People felt not only personally committed to that, but of course, I remember a huge number of emails and an expectation that people were here, and therefore the thing that we can use if we decide to, which is not to be here and not to vote, wasn't really an option for many people. And therefore to get someone who might have paid or to find some other way.

At that time, I couldn't find a way through it. But let me let me say something, something else briefly about this, which is it's not just about changing a system, for example, proxy voting, but I would be open to looking at that. And I think the Modernisation Committee would be too. But I am a great advocate of the usual channels here. I have a great advocate of the bit that people think is very suspicious, and they wonder why on earth we have such a system, but actually it makes it work.

It's the oil that makes the engine of this place work, and there are things that you can do through the usual channels that are never seen, that make life better for people. Actually MPs for MPs, better for people. And I think, and I'm not going to go into the, the, the realm of the divisive politics that we've just lived through. But it is part of it. It's not just Covid, it's part of it. I've lived through, you know, in, in recent times where politics has been more divisive and therefore it has been difficult to get opposition parties to accept the position, the view of government and our the government is finding it difficult to accept the perspective of the opposition.

And I have to say, if this place is going to work better, we have to do it better. We actually have to see not to resurrect the usual channels as it always was, but actually to find ways of better working and to get those. And I'm not ashamed to say this, the personal relationships that make the usual channels work, and that is certainly my approach and will continue to be so as long as I've got an opportunity to contribute. Let me turn because I'm taking a lot of time.

Let me turn to the speech of my hon. Friend for West Bromwich. And she's right to say there was a huge turnover at the general election. In fact, it was said to me that 80% of the members of the House of Commons now have got less than seven years experience. I can't remember even when there was a massive change in 1997, and indeed in 2010, it would not have been on that scale. Now, the effect of that is that we've lost some of the institutional memory of this place, and therefore that, as far as I'm concerned, is a deficit.

But on the other hand, we've got a great number of new MPs from a varied background, some of them with all sorts of experiences and, frankly, of needs. And that's good because they need to come in and we need to keep moving through that generational change. There's always a bit of a price to pay, but there's always an advantage to get there as well. And it is important that that we take that into account. There are solutions to many of the issues that have been raised, Madam Deputy Speaker but as I say, this report is not the end of the story.

We will continue to do so. And let me finish this bit on here, which which I understand the point about lots of votes and the time that it takes and how exhausting it can be. And that's not to trivialise the experience of people who need additional needs. But going back to what I've just said about the usual channels, I can't remember a time when we had as many votes, because the responsibility of this place and the relationship between us and the other place, they have every right to send lots back, and we have every right to kick it back too.

But at some point, at some point, they've got to start giving something and the government has to start giving something too. It's how Parliament works. It's how democracy works. We don't have to have as many votes in this place. They don't have as many votes along there on a day to day basis as we do. You don't have to have a vote at the end. Even if you don't agree with the bill, you don't have to vote against the Second Reading. You can vote it down at Third Reading, the point of listening at Second Reading and making your speech against it is that it goes into committee.

The point of committee is to change what is before you and if you don't like it, have a go at report. And if you still don't like it, vote it down at Third Reading. We just spent a great deal of time when, frankly, we pretty well know what the results are going to be in most divisions. So I think these are all issues I'm wondering about now. I can see that. But these are all but there are these are all issues that are different.

There are different solutions to the ones that might appear to be the obvious solution when we look at that. But I do take away and I will take away and think about this. I think my hon. Friend makes a very important point about gender, and long may she continue to do so, because that is very important indeed. Let me finish on this point. Madam Deputy Speaker. It is clear that we've got a long way to go in modernisation. We've seen some encouraging progress.

I think this report is part of that. We will continue to monitor all sorts of issues, including accessibility. I look forward to working in a collegiate way with colleagues to make this work progress and make this place an even greater place to work and for visitors to visit. I thank the

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House authorities for their ongoing work, and I commend this motion to the House. The question is that this House

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The question is that this House has considered the first report of the Modernisation Committee, access to the House of Commons and its to the House of Commons and its procedures, and that the House and the House administration responds, as many as are of that opinion, say I of the contrary, no. I think the I of the contrary, no. I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. We now come to the presentation of public petitions. Point of order. Chi Onwurah.
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14:44
None Portrait Adjournment: Improving awareness, diagnosis and outcomes for neuroendocrine cancer
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opportunity to bring this vital issue to the House today. The term neuroendocrine cancer may not be familiar to many, but tens of
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Scott Arthur Portrait Dr Scott Arthur MP (Edinburgh South West, Labour)
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thousands of people across the United Kingdom have had to educate themselves after receiving a themselves after receiving a diagnosis. As with any rare cancer, this is often an uphill struggle this is often an uphill struggle marked by delays, misdiagnosis and a persistent struggle for visibility within our healthcare visibility within our healthcare system. Members, possibly including the Minister, will have heard me make this point before. A cancer being considered rare does not stop being considered rare does not stop it from impacting on many thousands of people right across the UK.

Indeed, around 6000 people are diagnosed with neuroendocrine cancer each year in the UK, which works out at roughly one person every 90 minutes. Today. In the UK, more than 36,000 people are living with this condition. To put that into perspective, it is now more prevalent than stomach or pancreatic cancer. The rate of growth is incredibly alarming. Between 1995 and 2018, the incidence of neuroendocrine cancer increased by a staggering 371%. This is not a niche healthcare concern. It is a rapidly growing challenge that our NHS must be equipped to meet.

Statistics can often feel abstract and abstract in this chamber, which is why I want to share the story of a meeting I recently held with three neuroendocrine cancer patients Liz, Carolyn and Craig, at my office in Fountainbridge in Edinburgh, South West. Their stories were both moving and illuminating, and I have to say, this meeting took place just four weeks ago. We have just been talking about modernising the House of Commons here. I find it quite incredible that in a four week period I can meet someone, request a debate and then have my favourite Minister here in the House of Commons answering the questions that I might raise.

I think it's really just restore my faith in democracy. Well, Craig Craig, who I met that day, is unique and and challenging because he has the unique and challenging position of being both a professional advocate and a patient himself. He and others I met with, spoke, spoke, and expressed immense gratitude for the care they eventually received, describing it as nothing short of fantastic. Once they were in the right hands, however, they also spoke about the exhausting battle it took to access specialists who properly understood their condition.

They described a system where specialist doctors and centres centres of excellence are too often hidden behind a wall of referral delays and low clinical awareness. This is particularly in evidence in Scotland, where patients are currently facing the worst waiting lines waiting times since records began. But it is also true, albeit to a lesser extent, in our health system south of the border and in Wales and Northern Ireland. One one of the most powerful parts of our conversation centred on a symptom which is often difficult to discuss, yet utterly debilitating.

The frequent and urgent need to access a toilet. This is not just a minor inconvenience, it is a symptom that robs people of their autonomy and their dignity. They spoke of how this invisible burden prevented many patients from working, from entering social events, or even leaving their home for long periods of time as their barrier to a normal, fulfilling life. But they also brought a message of hope regarding the drug teller strategy. They described how this treatment has quite literally given them back their lives by managing these symptoms and stopping the cycle of incontinence, this drug has allowed them to turn work, to return, to work, to contribute to their communities and pay their tax, which is quite important and most importantly, a joy of fulfilling family life.

This is a clear example of where the right medication does not just treat a disease, it restores a person's dignity and their place in society. It is a powerful reminder that when we invest in the right treatments and pathways, the system burden is reduced because patients are empowered to live independently. Despite these successes, Madam Deputy Speaker, the single biggest driver of poor outcomes, remains the time it takes to get that initial diagnosis. At a meeting I attended at the Royal College of General Practitioners in December, bringing together UK based healthcare professionals involved in trials, patient care and leading research into neuroendocrine cancer.

I heard that on average, it takes four and a half years for a patient with the tumour to be correctly diagnosed. During that time, the average patient visits their GP 11 times. Because these cancers can occur anywhere in the body and the symptoms are often non-specific, they are frequently dismissed as more common conditions, such as irritable bowel syndrome syndrome, asthma, the menopause or anxiety. I hope somebody somewhere has taken a list of all the conditions which do get confused with menopause, because I do think it's quite a long one.

Many patients, including the three who came to visit my office, look perfectly well even while harbouring the disease. The consequences are severe. However, over half of all patients are diagnosed at stage 3 or 4 when treatment options are more limited and the cost to the NHS is significantly higher. Nu Neuroendocrine Cancer UK estimates that it costs between 2 and £300,000 more per patient when treating it at a later stage, rather than an early one. Currently, the UK has 13 accredited centres of excellence, including a specialist team in Edinburgh and an accredited centre in Glasgow.

These hubs deliver multidisciplinary evidence, evidence based care that is proven to improve survival rates. Yet access remains a postcode lottery. Whether you are a patient in rural Scotland or a coastal town in England, the quality of care you receive should not depend on whether your local hospital happens to have a neuroendocrine lead. In Scotland, we see a stark divide between our urban and rural communities, whereas in England access issue is more related to divergent priorities of different cancer alliances. In both cases, patients suffer because we do not have a standardised diagnostic pathway for everyone.

The closest we have to a standardised service, which all neurocrine neurocrine patients can access, is one that is offered by Neurocrine Neurocrine Neuroendocrine Cancer UK. They provide a critical safety net offering helplines, counselling and peer support, and they regularly step up to fund small scale early stage studies or trials which are needed to get research off the ground. It is sobering that 95% of Newark neuroendocrine Cancer UK income comes from community generosity. They are delivering system critical services that support the NHS, yet they do so with almost no statutory resourcing.

In closing, I would like to ask the Minister to address five specific priority areas. One clinical awareness can we embed neuroendocrine cancer into primary care training and early diagnosis initiatives to stop these patients being lost in the system for years, perhaps reducing the number of GP appointments needed before a diagnosis. Two clear pathways as I mentioned previously, we need to tackle the postcode lottery when it comes to treatment, and the only way to do this is through a nationally recognised diagnosis, diagnostic and referral pathway to centres of excellence.

Can this be considered? Three the guidance gap currently the Ng12 guidance is is critical to cancer diagnosis in England and Wales. Neuroendocrine cancer is not included in this guidance. Can we review whether there could be a way to include it for data and visibility? Neuroendocrine specific cancer data is not routinely published. We need this in order to accurately track the rate at which cases are rising. And our response to that. We can also ensure that can we ensure that most more data is published more regularly? And.

Five research equity this issue of funding for research into rare cancers was one of the key asks that charities raised with me when I was consulting on my Rare cancers bill, which is now an act. What more can we do to ensure that the government is using all the mechanisms at its disposal to stimulate research in this rare cancers and all others that currently fall through the cracks of major funding streams. So in summary, earlier recognition, clearer routes to specialist care and access to life changing drugs have the potential to transform outcomes.

I look forward to hearing the minister's plans to make that reality. Thank you, Madam Speaker.
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Sharon Hodgson Portrait Mrs Sharon Hodgson MP, The Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health and Social Care (Washington and Gateshead South, Labour)
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Minister thank you very. Friend, the Member for Edinburgh South West for securing this important debate this evening. And I'm not sure if he's aware, but we could actually go on till about 530. So we've got hours it at our disposal if we want to continue this conversation for that long. We don't want to test Madam Deputy Speakers patience too much though. But we don't have to be too speedy. We can cover this properly and in depth, and I also must congratulate him for his huge achievement on the Rare Cancers Act, which received royal assent.

As he knows, on the 5th of March this year, with support from right across this House and in the other place, and this government is proud to have supported the Rare Cancers Act during its parliamentary passage. The Rare Cancers Act was described as a bill of hope, and it does give hope to all those who face a diagnosis with a rare cancer, such as those with neuroendocrine cancer. And as set out in our National Cancer Plan, we will implement the Rare Cancers Act to make it easier for rare cancer patients to be contacted about clinical trials, and this act will help accelerate the clinical clinical trials needed to deliver the most effective cutting edge treatments and the highest quality care for patients facing a rare cancer diagnosis.

Madam Deputy Speaker, since this government took office, around 228,000 more people are getting a cancer diagnosis on time. Around 40,000 more are starting treatment on time, and rates of early diagnosis are hitting record highs. And despite these vital signs of recovery, the NHS is still failing. Far too many cancer patients and their families. And we know that improving outcomes for rare cancer patients is key to ensuring we make the NHS fit for the future. In February, this government published our much lauded National Cancer Plan.

We now have a blueprint to shift the dial on rare and challenging cancers, including neuroendocrine cancer, underpinned by three key targets first, to save 320,000 more lives by 2035, ensuring that three in every four people diagnosed in in 2035 will be cancer free or living well with cancer after five years. Second, we will achieve the three cancer performance targets by the end of March 2029. And finally, we will improve the quality of life for people with cancer.

As we have heard, neuroendocrine cancer is a rare type of cancer that can develop in various organs in the body, including the pancreas, lungs and intestines. The National Disease Registration Service collects patient data on cancer congenital anomalies and rare diseases, and provides expert analysis to support clinical teams, academics, charities and policy makers to help plan and improve treatment and healthcare in England now understands the need for statistics on neuroendocrine neoplasms, and has worked with an expert working group to identify these cases in the cancer registry data.

This working group has included clinical experts and charity engagement, and the first statistics on these groupings are expected to be published as part of Get data out in a few months. Furthermore, the National Cancer Plan is committed to improving data on rare cancers to ensure transparency and support the NHS to speed up diagnosis and treatment to help cancer waiting times. We'll give trusts and cancer alliances the detailed, practical information that they need for more granular data for individual cancer types to real time pathway insights through the Federated Data platform and by streamlining cancer metrics, we'll shine a much brighter light on unwarranted variation in care.

So issues can't be hidden and action can be taken quickly. Rare and less common cancers, including neuroendocrine cancers, are a priority for this government, and this is the first ever national Cancer Plan with a dedicated chapter on rare cancers. We know that one of the most effective ways to improve survival from cancers, including neuroendocrine cancers, is to catch it early and treat it quickly. And we know that raising awareness of symptoms is an essential part of this, which is why the NHS in England run campaigns to increase knowledge of cancer symptoms and to address barriers to acting on them, and my hon.

Friend mentioned the number of women told it's menopause symptoms and when they first present to their GPS. And as a woman who's been in that position myself, I think he made a very good point about how many different conditions and are then blamed on the menopause. The campaigns have focussed on recognising a range of symptoms, as well as encouraging general body awareness to help people spot symptoms across a wide range of cancers. At an earlier point in cancer, alliances across the country are also engaging with their local communities to deliver campaigns, community engagement and partnership activity to increase symptom knowledge and encourage people to come forward as soon as possible.

If they notice they have a change in their health. So whilst I want to be clear, I've never had a cancer diagnosis blamed on the menopause. There has been lots of other things I might have went to my GP about that has been blamed on the menopause. I do want to make that clear, but also, as I know, the hon. Gentleman has done work on ovarian cancer as well. He came along to an event. It took over the hosting of it from myself.

When I was made a Minister with ovarian cancer, and the symptoms of ovarian cancer are constantly blamed on IBS, irritable bowel syndrome or constipation or a bad back. It happens with so many, many cancers. So he was really it's a really very important point that he was making in that regard. In addition to improving awareness of neuroendocrine cancers, we are also targeting improvements to support diagnosis. The NHS in England have rolled out non-specific symptom pathways in SS pathways designed to speed up the diagnosis of cancer.

Nationally. These pathways are intended to cover the cohort of patients who do not fit clearly into a single urgent cancer referral pathway, but who are nonetheless at risk of being diagnosed with cancer. These benefit the detection of all cancers, including rarer cancers such as neuroendocrine cancers and, as announced in the National Cancer Plan earlier this year, we are prioritising access to specialist treatment and to multidisciplinary teams for all patients diagnosed with rare cancers, and this will ensure patients with neuroendocrine cancer and other rare cancers will benefit from the best evidence based care.

Furthermore, we invested £70 million into 28 new Linac radiotherapy machines to replace older, less efficient machines, and these new machines will reduce waiting times, provide 15% more treatments and enable 27,500 more patients to be treated each year. Going forward, the NHS has also harnessing the power of AI to support oncologists to plan radiotherapy more quickly and accurately, improving contouring, reducing the risk of damage to healthy tissue and minimising complications. And we know that research and innovation is crucial to tackling cancer, which is why we remain committed to investing in cancer research.

Cancer is a major area of National Institute for Health and Care Research spending, totalling £141.6 million in 2425, reflecting its high priority. The NIH supports research into neuroendocrine cancers spanning research to better understand and diagnose through to research to advance treatment options for patients between 2021, 2021 and 2425. And NIH has committed £3.5 million for new research projects, alongside supporting infrastructure into neuro endocrine cancer. Activity is underway through the NIH. James Lind Lines, in partnership with the UK and Ireland Neuroendocrine Tumour Society and New Neuroendocrine Cancer UK to identify priority research questions regarding neuroendocrine cancer care and treatment, and this will ensure that future research focuses on areas that matter most to patients, families and clinicians.

Our research investments have the potential to shift the dial and position the UK as a leading location for cancer research. As set out in our ten year health plan, we will make the UK a global leader in clinical research. Clinical research is one of the most powerful tools we have to improve healthcare. It helps us prevent, diagnose and treat cancer more effectively, and our vision is to embed research across the NHS, giving patients greater choice and control over their healthcare to hold us accountable across these commitments and to drive forward progress for rare cancer patients.

We will appoint a national clinical lead for rare cancers, who will provide independent advice on improving outcomes. So the actions I've listed make up just a small part of our plan, which will in turn, which will turn cancer from one of the biggest killers into a chronic condition that is treatable. And this will benefit our desire to improve outcomes for all cancer patients, including neuroendocrine cancer patients. And in closing, Madam Deputy Speaker, can I once again thank my hon.

Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West for bringing this important debate this afternoon. We it looks like we are going to finish early. After all, I don't want any anybody to think that through lack of interest to this important topic, but it is Thursday and people do have their constituencies to get back to, so I will not delay the House any further. But thank my hon. Friend for all the work he does on rare

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cancers. Thank you. The question is that this House.

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The question is that this House. Do now adjourn As many as are of that opinion say aye. I.
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