House of Commons

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Commons Chamber

Tuesday 19 October 2021

The House met at half-past Eleven o’clock

Prayers

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Oral Answers to Questions

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Commons Chamber

The Secretary of State was asked—

[Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con)]

1. What recent steps his Department has taken to increase NHS capacity.

[Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)]

16. What recent steps his Department has taken to increase NHS capacity.

[Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)]

19. What recent steps his Department has taken to increase NHS capacity.

[The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Sajid Javid)]

The NHS will receive an extra £5.4 billion for the second half of this financial year to support its response to covid-19. This includes an extra £1 billion to help to tackle the treatment backlog and £478 million to continue the enhanced hospital discharge programme, freeing up beds. This brings the total extra investment in health and care services so far this year, during the pandemic, to £34 billion.

[Julian Sturdy]

My wonderful local charity York Against Cancer has been approached by York Hospital regarding the part funding of a da Vinci robotic cancer surgery system. This revolutionary machine allows for fewer and smaller incisions, meaning faster patient recovery, shorter hospital stays and, ultimately, better and faster cancer care. Will the Secretary of State assure me that he fully supports local collaboration, wherever needed, to introduce these machines and that he is doing everything he can to roll out this new technology across our health service?

[Sajid Javid]

I assure my hon. Friend that cancer care, whether provided through these machines, diagnostics or in any other way, remains an absolute priority for the Government. Colleagues will understand that some cancers were not diagnosed during the pandemic, and I join him in congratulating York Against Cancer on the work it is doing. I would like to learn more about this machine and to see how we can make it work throughout the NHS.

[Andrew Jones]

I thank my right hon. Friend for his answer and welcome the extra investment he outlined, but too often we talk about catch up in terms of physical health. What is he doing to catch up on mental health, particularly mental health beds?

[Sajid Javid]

My hon. Friend is right to highlight the importance of mental health. He will know that one of the unintended consequences of the lockdowns is that, sadly, there were more cases of mental ill health. The NHS long-term plan commits to increasing investment in mental health at least as fast as investment in physical health, with at least £2.3 billion of extra spending on mental health by 2023-24, which I hope he welcomes.

[Nigel Mills]

Local general practitioners report that they are working as hard as they ever have, with full lists of appointments, but constituents are still unhappy that they cannot get appointments quickly or in the format they would like. Is there more the Government could do to help local GPs across the country to give patients the service that they want and that GPs want to provide?

[Sajid Javid]

We are hugely grateful for the tireless efforts of GPs and their teams throughout the pandemic. In our comprehensive new plan, which we announced last week, we are including a £250 million winter access fund to support GPs and make it easier for them to see and speak to their patients. A record number of GPs began training in 2021, and we are committed to increasing the number to 4,000 each year.

[Dr Rosena Allin-Khan (Tooting) (Lab)]

I start by paying my respects to Sir David Amess and James Brokenshire, who were sadly taken from us far too soon.

I welcome the Minister for Care and Mental Health, the hon. Member for Chichester (Gillian Keegan), to her new brief. I look forward to working with her.

We are all too aware of the growing demand for support across the NHS, but all too often mental health treatment is forgotten. With up to 10 million more people thought to require treatment as a result of the pandemic, with waiting lists soaring and with beds being cut, we need more than just warm words from the Government. Labour will guarantee treatment, not just an assessment, starting within a month, and we will recruit 8,500 new staff so that 1 million additional people can receive the timely treatment they so deserve. That is what came out of our conference from our party leader. There was nothing of equal value from the Prime Minister, bar recycled old pledges and money spent four times over. Why?

[Mr Speaker]

I call the Secretary of State.

[Sajid Javid]

Sorry, Mr Speaker. I did not realise the hon. Lady had finished. What she calls old pledges are hugely significant, and they continue to play a significant role. The NHS long-term plan, as I said a moment ago, has £2.3 billion extra each year by 2023-24. That extra investment will support 380,000 more adults and 345,000 more children.

The hon. Lady is, of course, right that the number of cases of mental ill health has sadly grown during the pandemic, which is one of the reasons we published a mental health recovery action plan with an additional £500 million this financial year.

[Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)]

NHS dentistry is facing a capacity crisis. There is a huge backlog of urgent care and treatment, which is leaving many dentists overwhelmed. Patients, including those in Pontefract and in towns across the country, are now unable to get routine check-ups, which is making the urgent care crisis worse and creating a vicious spiral. Will the Health Secretary ask his Ministers to meet dentist groups and patient groups in Yorkshire to hear about the urgent crisis they are facing and set out an urgent plan to deal with the huge capacity crisis in NHS dentistry?

[Sajid Javid]

The right hon. Lady is right to raise the issue of access to dentistry for her constituents and those across England. Dentists have done a fantastic job faced with the challenges of the pandemic. We all knew that those were very real for dentists, who, of course, could not see their patients in the normal way, and they have done everything they can to help on that. The measures that have recently been taken—the review by the United Kingdom Health Security Agency on infection prevention and control—will help. Reduced access has been a major cause of the backlog. We are also working with our colleagues in the NHS to see what more we can do.

[Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)]

All Devon’s hospitals are on red alert, partly because of capacity issues caused by ongoing covid cases. Why does the Secretary of State think the UK now has the highest covid infection, hospitalisation and death rates in western Europe?

[Sajid Javid]

First, may I take this opportunity to congratulate all the health and care workers across Devon on the fantastic work they are doing? The right hon. Gentleman will know that the Government have set out clearly their approach to dealing with the pandemic and that we are very much focused on vaccinations, which are working, building a wall of defence, treatments and testing.

[Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

Further to the last question on NHS dentistry from the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), we are in a difficult situation across North Yorkshire, where there is no NHS dentist availability across the whole of Thirsk and Malton. It will take the NHS two years to recommission the service in Helmsley—the closed practice in Helmsley—and the Thirsk practice has just closed its doors with its current list of patients. Will my right hon. Friend set out exactly what we can do to increase the availability of NHS dentistry?

[Sajid Javid]

Again, my hon. Friend is right to raise this issue. As we have just heard from other hon. Members, there is a real issue with dentistry across England, including in North Yorkshire, and we know how the pandemic has had an impact on that. Dentists have tried to do the best they can in those circumstances. The changes we are making to infection prevention and control will help. We are looking at further measures, and I understand that my hon. Friend will be meeting the Minister shortly to discuss his issues in North Yorkshire carefully.

[Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab)]

2. What recent estimate he has made of the size of backlogs in cancer diagnosis and treatment.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

11. What recent estimate he has made of the size of backlogs in cancer diagnosis and treatment.

[The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Sajid Javid)]

The number of people waiting longer than 62 days for treatment following an urgent referral for suspected cancer in England has come down considerably, from 35,000 people in May 2020 to about 19,000 people. The NHS is putting in place extra capacity to diagnose and treat cancer patients, with the aim of clearing the cancer backlog of patients waiting over 62 days from referral to first treatment by the end of March 2022.

[Daniel Zeichner]

To do that, we are going to need healthy NHS staff. I was alarmed to hear Cambridgeshire’s director of public health last week talking about the sheer scale of covid ripping through the school population and then into the parental cohort, many of whom, of course, will be working in the NHS. Peterborough currently has the highest number of cases it has had at any time during the pandemic. So what is the Government’s plan to keep NHS staff healthy, in order to allow them to tackle that alarming cancer backlog?

[Sajid Javid]

First, let me say that NHS staff have done a phenomenal job throughout the pandemic in helping patients with cancer or any other illness. A comprehensive plan of support has been in put in place, with this Department working with our NHS colleagues carefully to provide, for example, advice and help. Extra mental health support has been provided as well, and we are looking to see what more we can do.

[Tony Lloyd]

My late constituent Anne began to suffer pain in April. She never had a GP visit. She had two visits to accident and emergency, which did not result in any treatment plan. Finally, after four months, she had a non-urgent visit to a urologist. Sadly, because at no point was she diagnosed with a terminal condition, she was not given access to hospice care and died in September. I put it to the Secretary of State that this is no way to treat an elderly lady and no way for her family to suffer. What is he going to do to guarantee that there will not be many more Annes in the months and years to come?

[Sajid Javid]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for raising that case. I am very sorry to hear about his constituent Anne and send my condolences to her family for what has happened.

The hon. Gentleman will understand that, during the pandemic, sadly, many people stayed away from the NHS, on which there was a huge amount of pressure. Despite everyone, especially those working in health and care, doing as much as they could, it just was not enough for some people. There is not only emergency spending to deal with the pandemic pressures—this year there is an additional £34 billion—but much more investment in equipment and diagnostic processes, such as the community diagnostic hubs that we announced last week, which will help to make a real difference.

[Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con)]

Unsurprisingly, I have become more acutely aware of stories about backlogs in cancer diagnosis and treatment, the impact of which should not be underestimated, so I welcome the Secretary of State’s sensitive and sensible response. Will he join me in recognising the multidisciplinary teams throughout the country that are working non-stop to meet cancer pathway targets, including Maidstone and Tunbridge Wells NHS Trust, which continued to operate cancer services throughout the pandemic last year and has met the 62-day target for 26 months in a row? Will he consider a visit to the hospital that treated me and thousands of others, to hear how the team there continues to strive to achieve improvements in diagnostic services and outcomes for cancer patients in my constituency and others in Kent?

[Sajid Javid]

Yes. It is great to see my hon. Friend, who speaks with real knowledge on this issue. Not only would I be pleased to visit that hospital but I wish to join her in congratulating the multidisciplinary teams throughout the country—especially the Maidstone and Tunbridge Wells multidisciplinary trust—that have been doing fantastic work on cancer.

[Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)]

The proportion of people starting cancer treatment within one month has dropped to the lowest level on record. Some 30,000 fewer people are accessing cancer treatment than we would have expected pre-pandemic, and winter pressures have already caused chemotherapy to be paused in Nottingham. The Government’s plans simply are not working and the Secretary of State is denying reality. Will he make a commitment today that there are now sufficient resources for cancer services throughout the winter period that will protect staff from redistribution, so that they can continue to deliver the care and support that cancer patients need?

[Sajid Javid]

The hon. Gentleman may have heard me say a moment ago that, of course, cancer remains a huge priority for the NHS. Very sadly, there have been people who have waited longer than 62 days after urgent referral. The number has come down considerably in the past year, to 19,000 as of May 2021, but that is still 19,000 too many, which is why the NHS is rightly committed to clearing that completely by March 2022. That requires a lot more investment. There is the additional £34 billion this year, but it requires long-term, sustainable investment, which is why the plan we have announced for long-term funding over the next three years, with additional funding of at least £12 billion a year for health and care, will make a real difference.

[Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

3. What steps the Government is taking to improve health outcomes for people with learning disabilities and autism.

[The Minister for Care and Mental Health (Gillian Keegan)]

I thank my hon. Friend for her work as the Minister for Care and particularly for starting the work on the Oliver McGowan mandatory training. We are currently trialling the training to improve awareness and understanding of learning disability and autism for all health and care staff. The improvement of health outcomes for people with learning disability was also championed by our dear friend Sir David Amess; I shall think of him every day in this role and try my very best to live up to his expectations.

[Caroline Dinenage]

I warmly welcome the Minister to her role, which I know she will do with great care. Will she expand a little on the roll-out of the mandatory training for all health and care professionals working in learning disability and autism, which is, as she knows, named in honour of Oliver McGowan? Will she say when it is likely to be rolled out nationwide and what sort of funding will be attached to it? Will she also say when the annual GP health checks for people with learning disability or autism are likely to be rolled out throughout the country on a face-to-face basis post covid?

[Gillian Keegan]

We have started the trials and they are well under way. We are using three trial providers. Our final evaluation report is due in spring 2022 and I would be very happy to share that with my hon. Friend. The outcomes of this trial and the evaluation will inform the plans for the roll-out across the country. I am working closely with Paula and Tom, Oliver McGowan’s parents, who, incidentally, grew up in the same place that I did—in fact, two streets away. They are key stakeholders and, obviously, we will make sure that we set out the detailed plans for roll-out as soon as possible. I thank my hon. Friend and Paula and Tom for all the work that they have done in this area; it really is remarkable and will make a massive difference. On the annual health checks for people with learning disabilities, the NHS has already met its target two years ahead of time for 75% of people on the GP learning disability register to receive an annual health check. I would urge anybody to come forward to make sure that they take advantage of that very important step.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

The Government have not responded to the report of the Health and Social Care Committee on the treatment of autistic people and people with learning disabilities and that response is now well overdue. Sadly, there is continued evidence of ongoing abuse of people with learning disabilities and autistic people. I point the Minister to the deaths reported at Cawston Park. There was a terrible report on that recently. This needs immediate and assertive action. Autistic people and people with learning disabilities are often trapped in inappropriate units for six years on average. By delaying their response, the Government are demonstrating apathy with regard to the terrible treatment in places such as Cawston Park and other units. When will the Government respond and act?

[Gillian Keegan]

I share the hon. Lady’s concerns; it simply is not good enough. The events at Cawston Park—my first response as a Minister to an Adjournment debate was on that subject—were unbelievable and deeply traumatic. My deepest condolences are with the families of Ben, Joanna and Jon. I have committed to meeting with the families at the earliest opportunity so that I can understand their experiences directly. This is currently being arranged by officials and the Norfolk Safeguarding Adults Board. The Department continues to work at pace through the delivery board of cross-Government and cross-system partners to drive progress on implementing the Building the Right Support national plan, which is ultimately the answer to have much better support in the community. We will publish an action plan, outlining all of the plans that we have, how we will improve outcomes and how we will enable people to live well in our communities.

[Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con)]

First, let me welcome my hon. Friend to her position. As chair of the all-party group on learning disability, I look forward to working with her.

On the point that the hon. Member for Worsley and Eccles South (Barbara Keeley) raised, the Government have a plan to reduce the number of people in in-patient units—the assessment and treatment units—like the one at Winterbourne View, which delivered completely inappropriate treatment. When will that delivery plan be published? Her predecessor committed to doing it four months ago; she said that there was work to be done. Can my hon. Friend set out when it will be published so that we can press the Government on delivering those ambitious goals?

[Gillian Keegan]

I look forward to working with my right hon. Friend. I have been along to the first board, although I have not yet chaired it. But we will be developing that action plan. I cannot commit to the date but I will let him know as soon as I can when we will publish the plan. We will be publishing a winter plan for the NHS, which will include lots of different support, in the next couple of weeks.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for her response. Given recent statistics that show that one in 20 schoolchildren in Northern Ireland has an autism diagnosis, may I ask her what steps have been taken here on the mainland to ensure that children with learning disabilities or autism have guidance in their health journey and are never left overwhelmed without specialised support at those very necessary appointments?

[Gillian Keegan]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. He is right to identify this concern. Compared with the general population, people with learning disabilities are three times more likely to die from an avoidable medical cause of death. That is why these annual health checks to ensure that we get early diagnoses for these people are so important. That is why I am delighted that many people are coming forward and that the NHS is two years ahead of its plan here in England. Hopefully, others will follow that lead.

[Nick Fletcher (Don Valley) (Con)]

4. What plans his Department has to build a new hospital in Doncaster.

[The Minister for Health (Edward Argar)]

We have now received applications from trusts to be one of the next eight hospitals in our new hospital programme, which will be the biggest hospital building programme in a generation. I understand that an expression of interest has been submitted, proposing developments at the Doncaster Royal Infirmary site. Although I cannot comment on this particular application at this stage, I can tell my hon. Friend that we aim to make our final decision in spring next year.

[Nick Fletcher]

It appears that every time that I am fortunate enough to ask a question relating to health and social care, another disaster has happened at Doncaster Royal Infirmary. This time, it is a second water leak in the women’s hospital. Given that there is a maintenance backlog of £514 million and the newest part of Doncaster Royal Infirmary is older than the town of Milton Keynes, does my hon. Friend agree that a new hospital is not a “nice to have”, but an absolute necessity for the people of Doncaster? Will he please also visit Doncaster Royal Infirmary, although, with ceiling collapses and water leaks, he may need to bring a hard hat and some wellies?

[Edward Argar]

I cannot comment on the selection process while it is under way, but my hon. Friend is a strong and powerful advocate for his constituents and for a new hospital in Doncaster. He has met me a number of times and continues to raise this matter in the House. I should perhaps have taken him up on his offer of a visit in the summer, when it was sunny, but I am still certainly happy to take him up on that offer.

If I may briefly be indulged, Mr Speaker—we do not often have the opportunity to do this from the Front Bench—let me say that I am grateful to the hon. Member for Tooting (Dr Allin-Khan) for her kind words about our late colleagues, James Brokenshire and Sir David Amess. The last time I saw David was a few weeks ago, when he posed for a photo that he wanted with me and then tried to impress on me the question of whether I would come to the wonderful town of Southend.

[Mr Speaker]

City.

[Edward Argar]

Hang on, sir! I was about to say that I would be delighted to visit what is now the city of Southend. My only deep sadness is that our friend will not be there to meet me when I do so. He and his family are very much in our thoughts.

[Aaron Bell (Newcastle-under-Lyme) (Con)]

5. What discussions he has had with the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs on the (a) short-term and (b) long-term impact on public health of the ongoing odorous emissions from Walley’s Quarry in Newcastle-under-Lyme.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Maggie Throup)]

I commend my hon. Friend for his tenacity on the issue of Walley’s Quarry and for continuing to stand up for his constituents. As part of the multi-agency response, the UK Health Security Agency provides expertise and support to the Environment Agency and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. On 4 May, the Secretary of State took appropriate action, writing to the Environment Agency, which regulates the landfill operation, and urging it to use its regulatory and enforcement powers over Walley’s Quarry Ltd to resolve the problems at the site. It has been strongly recommended that the Environment Agency takes appropriate measures as early as possible to reduce offsite odours from the landfill site and to reduce the concentrations in local areas to levels below the health-based guidance values used to assess long-term exposure.

[Aaron Bell]

I welcome the Minister to her place. This ongoing public health emergency in Newcastle-under-Lyme has been a real trial for my constituents. Does she agree that in future the Environment Agency will need to take into account the effects on public health—both physical and mental health—of odorous emissions and the gases that escape from landfills, so that no other town has to go through what we have in the last year?

[Maggie Throup]

I assure my hon. Friend that the Environment Agency takes the situation very seriously and is working with the operators of the site to address it as quickly and effectively as possible. I am sure that he will be pleased to learn that the Environment Agency has re-evaluated its regulatory approach following the outcome of the judicial review, and on 14 October published its plan to reduce the levels of hydrogen sulphide emissions at the site.

[Simon Fell (Barrow and Furness) (Con)]

6. What estimate his Department has made of the number of people with Dandy-Walker syndrome in the UK.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Maria Caulfield)]

I thank my hon. Friend for raising a question on this rare but important condition. Public Health England’s national disease registration service contributed data to a European Dandy-Walker syndrome epidemiology study back in 2019. The results identified that the condition occurs in about 2.7 live births per 100,000. More work is currently being done to report on the number of people living with the condition in the United Kingdom.

[Simon Fell]

I thank my hon. Friend for doing the research on this question. One of my constituents, Steven Forster, came to see me during a surgery last summer. His granddaughter, Mia, is suffering with Dandy-Walker syndrome. As there is not the knowledge in the NHS about how best to treat the condition, like many families, when they do eventually find a doctor who has that knowledge, they have to travel a long way to see them and there is a huge cost attached to that. With that in mind, will my hon. Friend agree to meet some of the families across the UK who are trying to get together a support group on the issue, and consider putting together an NHS centre of excellence so that parents and carers know where to go for help?

[Maria Caulfield]

I thank my hon. Friend for raising his constituent’s granddaughter Mia’s case. With over 7,000 rare conditions, awareness among healthcare professionals can be difficult. That is why in January this year the Government set up the UK Rare Diseases Framework whereby officials are working with partners including Health Education England to raise awareness of rare conditions such as Dandy-Walker so that we provide training for staff and target education for healthcare professionals. I would be happy to meet him and his constituent to talk about this and listen to some of their concerns and experiences.

[Damian Green (Ashford) (Con)]

7. What steps he is taking to provide a long-term solution to social care.

[The Minister for Care and Mental Health (Gillian Keegan)]

Last month the Prime Minister announced an unprecedented investment in social care to support our own futures and those of our loved ones and our growing ageing population. This investment of £5.4 billion will support the wellbeing of the 1.5 million-strong workforce, offer professionalisation and provide hundreds of thousands of training places. It will also fund supported housing, better advice and capped care costs at £86,000, removing the fear of spiralling care bills.

[Damian Green]

I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s answer, but she will acknowledge that even the promised better integration of health and social care, although very welcome, will not be enough. We need a long-term plan covering workforce issues, the use of technology, and provision whereby people can live in their own home for longer if we are to achieve ultimate success. If we do not solve all those issues, then I am afraid we will not have fixed social care.

[Gillian Keegan]

I agree with my right hon. Friend. The forthcoming White Paper on adult social care reform, which we will publish before the end of the year, will set out our vision for the sector. It will cover issues that affect care users, including housing and innovation within our housing models, access to information and advice, and funding for the workforce. I am very happy to be meeting him on 4 November in his role as chair of the all-party parliamentary group on adult social care to ensure that his insight and all the work that he and the APPG have done in this area are carefully considered.

[Liz Kendall (Leicester West) (Lab)]

I welcome the hon. Lady to her post. I listened carefully to what she said about the Government’s recent announcement. However, is not the reality, as the Association of Directors of Adult Social Services says, that all the additional money announced is going to the NHS in the first three years and little, if any, will ever make it to social care; there is nothing to deal with the overwhelming workforce pressures and increased levels of need we are experiencing right here, right now; and we will not see a single extra minute of care and support or an improved quality of life for older and disabled people or family carers? On top of this, at £86,000 the cap on care costs will not even stop people having to sell their homes to pay for care, and the vast majority of people will be dead before they ever reach the cap because it does not cover the costs of accommodation or food. How is this a long-term solution to social care, and is the Chancellor finally going to fill these gaping omissions in his Budget and spending review next week?

[Gillian Keegan]

I am sure the hon. Lady is in fact delighted that finally a Government have come forward with a plan for social care. In addition to that, this Government have spent an extra £34 billion this year in the NHS and we have raised the levy, which, as she says, will fund both the electives and the catch-up from the pandemic—we all know that many of our constituents need this—but there is also the £5.4 billion that is the biggest investment we have had in social care in this country. As things stand, one in seven adults over 65 face care costs of over £100,000 in their lifetime. Nobody will be forced to sell their home, as people will now have a very clear cap of £86,000 that will give families peace of mind that their assets will not be wiped out, and people can already take a deferred payment agreement so that their payments can be deducted from their estate after they die. Most people I have spoken to truly welcome this announcement and are absolutely convinced that this Government will introduce it.

[Siobhan Baillie (Stroud) (Con)]

We all know that when the care sector is struggling, the NHS feels the pressure, and that is certainly the case in Gloucestershire at the moment. The demand for adult social care is increasing for us locally by 4% year on year, which is higher than the average, and the huge number of requests for new care packages means that there are now delays for domiciliary care, as the market cannot respond to demand. Will the Minister, who I welcome to her new post, tell the House and the Gloucestershire care sector that the Government are working to support us? Will she meet the six Gloucestershire MPs and the leader of the council to discuss this matter?

[Gillian Keegan]

This is absolutely vital. The recent announcement of £500 million over three years to fund social care professionalisation is very warmly welcomed by the sector. It is a sector that employs 1.54 million people. It is larger than the NHS, construction, transport or food and drink. I am of course happy to meet my hon. Friend and other Gloucestershire MPs. I know this issue is a challenge. We have some short-term actions, and it is a key pillar of our long-term reform.

[Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP)]

With the Government introducing a health and social care levy, will the Minister ensure that social care is not at the back of the queue for spending? Can she provide clarity about every penny of Barnett consequentials that will be given to the devolved nations?

[Gillian Keegan]

I am sure that the Chancellor will be setting out what will happen with the Barnett consequentials. Yes, this issue is important. The most important thing to say is that this is the start—we have £5.4 billion over the next three years for us to embed some of the changes we need in the system, but this levy will continue, and social care will be a big part of and a big beneficiary from that levy in the future.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Will the Minister recommend what North Northamptonshire Council has just done, which is to pay its social care workers as a minimum the real living wage and to backdate that to April this year? That would be a small step in helping with this situation.

[Gillian Keegan]

Yes, I completely agree. Some 95% of the jobs are with private providers, so it is important that they take care of their workforce. There is a lot of competition for labour and a lot of skills shortages in our country. Most workers are on just above the national living wage, but it worries me that a third are on zero-hours contracts, so there is a lot we can do to improve the terms and conditions of the social care workforce. My hon. Friend raises a good leadership example.

[Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD)]

8. If he will make it his policy to keep prescriptions free for people aged over 60.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Maria Caulfield)]

The Department’s consultation on aligning the age for free prescriptions with the state pension age closed on 3 September. The responses to the consultation are being reviewed, and we will outline the next steps in due course.

[Sarah Olney]

We know that low incomes are associated with worse healthcare outcomes and also that average prescription use is higher among those in more deprived areas. Will the Minister accept that increasing healthcare costs for those on low incomes will mean that health inequalities will widen, increasing the pressure on low-income families and the NHS this winter?

[Maria Caulfield]

I thank the hon. Lady for her question. I reassure her that around 90% of prescription items in the community are provided free of charge. Those who are vulnerable and on low incomes, such as those on universal credit, income support and jobseeker’s allowance, already qualify for free prescriptions. It is really important that those over the threshold can also apply for the prescription prepayment certificate, where all their items will cost just about £2 a week. We are making sure that costs are low for those on low incomes.

[Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP)]

Record levels of funding by the Scottish Government for primary care will protect free eye examinations and free prescriptions for people in Scotland and will also enable the abolition of all NHS dentistry charges. Will the Minister follow Scotland’s lead and commit to a similar policy for England?

[Maria Caulfield]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his question. Although the Scottish Government provide free prescriptions, the money comes out of existing budgets, which means it is taken from elsewhere in the health service. That may be why, at the moment, three health boards in Scotland need the armed forces’ support to deal with their winter crisis.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

9. What steps he is taking to reduce elective procedure backlogs in the NHS.

[The Minister for Health (Edward Argar)]

We have committed an additional £1 billion this year to increase elective activity and tackle the backlog, doubling the £1 billion already provided through the elective recovery fund. Over the next three years, we plan to spend more than £8 billion to fund the biggest catch-up programme in NHS history, which comes atop, of course, the record £33.9 billion increase in funding and the health and social care levy.

[Sir Edward Leigh]

Before asking my question, may I make a declaration of personal interest, namely, my age? People of my generation and older are finding more and more delays in elective procedures, but the response of the Government, as we just heard, appears to be to just pump more taxpayers’ money into the bottomless pit of the NHS, resulting in ever more waste and lower productivity. Why do the Government—this Conservative Government—not use innovative private sector solutions to relieve some of the pressure on the NHS? Why do they not do what the Major Government did—hardly right-wing extremists—and give tax relief for private health insurance?

[Edward Argar]

I have known my right hon. Friend for a long time and he is eternally youthful. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State set out, the record investment that we are putting into our NHS, particularly to address the elective procedure backlogs, goes hand in hand with innovation and reform.

To the specific point of my right hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Sir Edward Leigh), the NHS is utilising the independent and private sector to carry out procedures for NHS patients. As he would expect me to say, however, tax breaks or similar are matters for the Chancellor, not me.

[Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

The thresholds of the elective recovery fund have a perverse impact, so hospitals with the least capacity are more unlikely to have the money to build their capacity. What steps will the Minister take to ensure that my constituents in York have funding from the Government to help build that capacity and have the elective surgery they need?

[Edward Argar]

In respect of the elective recovery fund and the thresholds, the hon. Lady recognised that they are an additionality alongside the record extra investment that we are putting into our NHS. We are putting more resources in, alongside reform and innovation, to deliver that increased capacity. The elective recovery fund is also designed to stimulate activity and to reward additional costs over and above that activity. We believe it is the right approach to generate that increased activity.

[Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con)]

The elective procedure backlog requires appropriate capacity for recovery and rehabilitation, much of which is provided by community hospitals, especially in rural areas. Is the Minister aware that on Friday, NHS Shropshire announced the imminent closure of Bishop’s Castle Community Hospital for patient safety reasons due to a lack of qualified nursing staff? Will he work with me to put pressure on the local NHS to develop a plan to recruit suitably qualified nurses and reopen the hospital as soon as possible?

[Mr Speaker]

On elective surgery.

[Edward Argar]

In the context of elective surgery recovery, my right hon. Friend makes an important point about the role that community hospitals play in helping to drive down waiting lists. I am grateful to him for drawing that to my attention and I will look into the specific situation he raised. It is important that, alongside providing a service, it is a safe service. I am happy to work with him to see what can be done in that situation.

[Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)]

Delays in procedures are causing increased pressure on our adult social care system. In September, East Riding of Yorkshire Council told my constituent that there was not a single carer to be had for her mum in the whole of the East Riding, and that the family’s options were to put their mum into residential care or to deal with it themselves. I spoke to those on the Conservative-led council to check whether that was true, and they said yes. They are facing a huge shortage of carers and they asked for my support in lobbying their Government for increased funding for social care. Will the Government give East Riding of Yorkshire Council the extra funding it needs to raise the wages of carers and try to attract some of them back to the profession?

[Edward Argar]

The hon. Lady is right to highlight that, essentially, social care and the NHS go hand in hand; they are two sides of the same coin. That is why we have made ambitious proposals, and will bring forward further proposals, for furthering the integration of those two sides.

The hon. Lady raised a specific case to illustrate her point. I, or perhaps more appropriately the Minister for Care and Mental Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Chichester (Gillian Keegan), would be happy to meet her to discuss the details of that situation.

[Jerome Mayhew (Broadland) (Con)]

12. What steps his Department is taking to build new hospitals.

[The Minister for Health (Edward Argar)]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his question. In October 2020 the Prime Minister announced details of 40 schemes that we will be taking forward in line with our manifesto commitment to deliver 40 new hospitals by 2030, supported by an initial £3.7 billion investment for them.

[Jerome Mayhew]

This seems to be the crumbling hospital corner of the House, as we have already heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Don Valley (Nick Fletcher) about his concerns. In Norfolk, we have the Queen Elizabeth Hospital, which is physically crumbling, and the ceilings and roofs are held up by wooden staves and acrow props. Although it is not in my constituency—it is in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk (James Wild)—it serves the entire county, and eight Members of Parliament have written in support of the bid. Could I invite the Minister to visit the Queen Elizabeth Hospital to see for himself the state of its structure?

[Edward Argar]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend, who quite rightly recognises and highlights the work that my hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk (James Wild) has put into championing the cause of this hospital. I understand that it has put in an application to be one of the next eight hospitals, which will of course be considered very carefully. I am very happy to visit Norfolk as well, but I would also highlight that one of the key issues at this particular hospital is the existence of RAAC—reinforced autoclaved aerated concrete—planks, for which we have already provided £20 million for remedial works this year.

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

As well as building new hospitals, the Government appear to be downgrading existing ones. Will the Minister meet me to discuss the downgrading of Walsall Manor, so that I can explain it to constituents and whistleblowers?

[Edward Argar]

I am always happy to meet the right hon. Lady. However, I would say to her that decisions such as that are NHS-made, clinical decisions. That is the framework through which they should be viewed, but I am always happy to meet her.

[Sara Britcliffe (Hyndburn) (Con)]

Will the Minister agree to meet me in Hyndburn to discuss plans for Accrington Victoria Hospital, making sure we are utilising our fantastic and historic building to its full potential?

[Edward Argar]

The short answer is that it looks as though I may be going on tour in the coming months, and I am delighted to accept my hon. Friend’s kind invitation.

[Justin Madders (Ellesmere Port and Neston) (Lab)]

With a £9 billion maintenance backlog, examples of which we have heard this morning, it is truly mind-boggling that the Department’s priority has been to try to change the definition of what a new hospital is, so let us cut out the spin on 48 new hospitals. Can the Minister tell us, of those 48—if we take out all the projects under way before the announcement was made, and those that are new wings, extensions or refurbishments of existing buildings—exactly how many new hospitals will be built by 2030? It is not 48, is it?

[Edward Argar]

I am grateful, I think, to the shadow Minister. We have a very clear definition of a new hospital, which I believe is shared by the public. It also leans on VAT notice 708 and its definition of what constitutes a new build or a refurbishment. To his specific question, we are committed to our manifesto commitment of 40 new hospitals by 2030—we build, the Opposition complain.

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Sajid Javid)]

If I may, I would like to take this opportunity to remember my friend and colleague James Brokenshire, who shall be sorely missed, and I would like to dedicate this statement to my colleague Sir David Amess.

Sir David was a friend, and I had the privilege of knowing his kindness, his compassion and his selflessness at first hand. For those who did not, Sir David’s record tells them everything they need to know. His first concern was never his own rank or status, but the cause of the underdog, the vulnerable, the marginalised and the forgotten. As well as on fuel poverty and in standing up for animal welfare, Sir David left his mark on my own brief in campaigning to tackle obesity, chairing the Conservative Back-Bench health committee and launching the all-party parliamentary group on endometriosis. That disease would never affect him personally, but it was raised by one of his constituents in his surgery—exactly like the one he was taking when he was killed. His legacy is the many lives that he touched, and I know that, like me, Members across the House will miss him terribly.

[Andrew Selous]

Of course I agree with every word of that very fine tribute to our two lost colleagues.

I represent an area of high housing growth so general practice provision needs to increase as the houses go up, but my clinical commissioning group tells me that NHS capital often appears at incredibly short notice and then disappears just as quickly. Can we try to get the provision of new general practices on a planned basis as the new houses go up?

[Sajid Javid]

My hon. Friend is right to raise this. Capital is allocated by two CCGs on a regional basis that is weighted by population, and, as he says, if that population changes, the weighting also changes. Additional funding can sometimes be allocated from section 106 or community infrastructure levy funding as well, but I am more than happy, if my hon. Friend would like, to meet him to discuss this further.

[Mr Speaker]

I call the shadow Secretary of State, Jonathan Ashworth.

[Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab/Co-op)]

If I may, Mr Speaker, I will, with your indulgence, take a moment to express my deep sadness at the loss of James and David and my utter shock at what we saw this weekend, but also to remember David as someone who was always smiling, who always encouraged me, particularly as a rookie MP when my office was just down the corridor from his, who always asked after my children and who always gave me tips. I sometimes get in a bit of trouble for being friends with Tories, but I will hugely miss David and James and send my condolences and sympathies to their friends and families.

I also welcome the new Ministers to the Treasury Bench. In recent weeks we have seen a patient at Preston wait over 40 hours for a bed, we have seen a child with mental health problems wait nearly 48 hours for a bed at Ipswich A&E, we have seen ambulances backed up outside hospitals—in Norfolk a patient died of a heart attack waiting in the back of an ambulance—and we have seen ever more patients, who cannot bear the wait for surgery, paying for operations. This is an NHS not just under pressure, but under water. What is the Secretary of State personally going to do to avert a winter crisis of misery for patients?

[Sajid Javid]

I agree with every word the right hon. Gentleman said about our friends and colleagues, James and David, but I hope his friendship with me will not get him into trouble—I hope I have not given that away. He is right to ask about the huge pressure the NHS is facing, and all our constituents are seeing that wherever they live. It is picking up over the winter. Winters can usually be tough for the NHS but this winter will be particularly tough and the Government have set out the reasons why: the pandemic is still ongoing; and this flu season will, I think, be particularly tough, which is why we are having the largest flu vaccination programme alongside the covid programme this year. We are doing a lot alongside the vaccination programmes, especially in terms of resources. We have put an extra £34 billion into the NHS and care for this year, including much more funding for diagnostics such as the community diagnostics hubs that I announced a couple of weeks ago, in which we invested 350 million. We will very shortly set out with the NHS a detailed programme for the winter and how we can better deal with the pressures.

[Jonathan Ashworth]

The Secretary of State mentioned the pandemic, but he must surely be concerned that yesterday we recorded close to 50,000 infections, and on every single day of the last three weeks 10,000 children have been diagnosed with covid. The booster programme is stalling with charities describing it as a “chaotic failure”, and only about 13% of children have been vaccinated. His wall of defence is falling down at just the point that vaccination is waning, so may I suggest that he ditches the complacency and fixes the vaccination programme now?

[Sajid Javid]

Our vaccination programme has been one of the most successful in the world, and the right hon. Gentleman may know that it has prevented 24 million infections, has prevented some 230,000 people from being hospitalised and saved 130,000 lives. I do not call that a failure; I call it a success.

[Laura Trott (Sevenoaks) (Con)]

T2. Last week, a whistleblower told the American Congress that Facebook had repeatedly misled the public about the impact of its platform on children’s health. Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is time for Facebook to be transparent about the impact of its platform, and to share with the public what it knows about the impact on children’s health?

[Sajid Javid]

I absolutely agree with my hon. Friend, and I thank her for raising this issue. I share those concerns. Over the past year, the number of young people being urgently referred for eating disorders has doubled. In the light of that, I was astonished to learn that one of Facebook’s own internal studies, which was brought to light by Ms Haugen, found that 17% of teen girls said that their eating disorders got worse after using Instagram. Facebook did not think it was appropriate to inform parents, healthcare professionals and legislators. I do think it is time for Facebook to do the right thing and publish what it knows.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

T3. As a former Chancellor, the Health Secretary will know that air pollution kills 64,000 people a year at a cost of £20 billion a year, according to the Royal College of Physicians, and twice that according to the World Health Organisation. Will he urge the Government to ensure that there are legally binding WHO limits in the Environment Bill, which we will consider tomorrow, to save tens of thousands of lives and tens of billions of pounds, and to send a message to the world on combating the 8.7 million deaths a year from air pollution?

[Sajid Javid]

The Government have a proud record on combating air pollution. The hon. Gentleman is right to raise the ongoing challenges of that, and I know that the Government, including the current Chancellor and the Environment Secretary, take it very seriously.

[Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con)]

T4. Will the Secretary of State please confirm whether the additional £250 million investment in primary care will be spent on additional capacity to be delivered by NHS doctors, providing a distinct break from the bureaucracy of the last Labour Government and the legacy of Tony Blair?

[Sajid Javid]

First, let me say that our GPs have done a phenomenal job during the pandemic. The nation really cannot thank them enough for what they did during the pandemic and what they continue to do. The GP access programme that I announced last week is about providing extra support for GPs to do what they love doing best, which is seeing their patients. The extra £250 million over the next five months will be ringfenced—it will be protected—and it will be there to expand general practice.

[Tony Lloyd (Rochdale) (Lab)]

T5. I thank the Secretary of State for his earlier response about my former constituent, Anne, but I did not detect that he mentioned the shortage of oncologists and radiologists in the health service. There is a 33% shortage of radiologists, and a 17% shortage—and growing—of oncologists. What is the commitment, not simply for this year but on an ongoing basis, to make sure that we train, train, train and have the staff who can deliver the cancer detection that is so fundamental?

[Sajid Javid]

The hon. Gentleman is right to raise this issue. Whether it is for treatment for cancer or other illnesses, we do need more clinicians in the NHS. On meeting the ongoing demand, I was pleased to see that this year we had the highest number of students ever entering medical schools for general practice, for example, and across the board. He may be interested to know that, for the year to date, to June 2021, the NHS has 2,700 more doctors and 8,900 more nurses. There is more to do, and I am pleased that he raised this issue.

[Crispin Blunt (Reigate) (Con)]

T7. [R] My right hon. Friend will be aware of the potential emerging treatment of the most difficult mental health conditions, including depression, trauma and addiction, if psychotherapy were reinforced by pharmacology with appropriate use of the psychedelic class of drugs, including psilocybin. That could benefit millions of our fellow citizens, including more than 2,000 of our veterans wrestling with untreated trauma from their service in Iraq and Afghanistan. Today, it is very difficult to conduct research in the UK due to the scheduling of those drugs in the most restrictive category of all, with absolutely no evidence of risk to support that immense burden placed on science and medical research. Every day we delay this science, scores of our fellow citizens will die unnecessarily, and millions will suffer unnecessarily. Will my right hon. Friend urgently examine this issue so that British people receive British scientific research and British pharmaceutical—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Come on, Secretary of State or Minister—whoever is answering. We have to get through these questions or it is unfair to others.

[Sajid Javid]

My hon. Friend is right to raise the importance of mental health and suicide. This is important, and I listened carefully to what he said. He knows that pharmacology already plays an important role in helping people with their mental health challenges, but he raises an interesting potential emerging treatment. He will know that scheduling is an issue for the Home Office, but I will be happy to meet him myself to discuss it further.

[Rushanara Ali (Bethnal Green and Bow) (Lab)]

T6. As the Secretary of State knows, the NHS is facing extreme pressure because of rising covid infection rates and hundreds of people still dying every week, and that is in the context of 5.6 million people on NHS waiting lists. Is it not time for the Health Secretary to revert to making mask wearing mandatory and to commit to suspending the reckless decision to charge for lateral flow tests in the coming months?

[Sajid Javid]

We have a plan for both the pandemic and other challenges over the winter, which we set out in detail. I remind the hon. Lady that we do not charge for lateral flow tests.

[Damian Green (Ashford) (Con)]

T8. My right hon. Friend will have seen last week’s Care Quality Commission report expressing continuing concern about maternity services in East Kent Hospitals University NHS Foundation Trust hospitals, including the William Harvey Hospital in my constituency. Can Ministers offer some reassurance to mothers-to-be in east Kent that giving birth in those hospitals will be safe?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Maria Caulfield)]

I thank my right hon. Friend and I share his concerns completely. Just to reassure him, NHS England provided £1.6 million to East Kent Hospitals University NHS Foundation Trust to fund an additional 38 midwives, with 26 already in post. I would be happy to keep updated with him to see what the clinical experience is on the ground.

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

T9. A constituent of mine, David Brydon, suffered an horrendous accident at home, falling down the stairs and severing his spinal cord. His family were really encouraged to learn that a pioneering treatment—the ARC treatment, as it is known—is being trialled at Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Glasgow. However, they were severely disappointed to learn that because he lives in England, he does not have the opportunity to access the treatment. Will the Minister meet me to see if we can come to some sort of a resolution for Mr Brydon, please?

[The Minister for Health (Edward Argar)]

I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman. This is what this House does best: raising and highlighting particular cases. I am very happy to meet him to discuss this very challenging case.

[Jeremy Hunt (South West Surrey) (Con)]

I would like to ask the Secretary of State about pressures in emergency care and comments that the new chief executive of NHS England made to the Health Committee this morning that we have shortages of 999 call handlers. Is he concerned about the time it is taking to answer some 999 calls? Do we have those shortages? What are his plans to address them if we do?

[Sajid Javid]

My right hon. Friend speaks with real experience, especially on tough winters for the NHS, and he highlights shortages across the NHS. He mentions 999 callers. There is a huge pressure at the moment on 111 calls as well, and emergency care generally, including ambulance services. A significant amount of support has been put in, especially over the past few months, with additional funding. We will set out a detailed plan with the NHS, coming shortly in the next couple of weeks, on exactly what more we will be doing.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

Given the high covid infection rates and the risk of new variants of concern emerging that may be vaccine-resistant, what discussion has the Health Secretary had with the Chancellor on extending the contain outbreak management fund and on increasing public health budgets, which are 24% lower than they were in 2015?

[Sajid Javid]

The hon. Lady will know that in terms of the pandemic we are very focused on vaccinations, treatments and testing. She is right to raise the importance of testing and surveillance for possible new variants. That remains a priority for the Government and it is getting the support it needs from the Treasury.

[Jason McCartney (Colne Valley) (Con)]

With covid case rates across my area of Kirklees still above the national average, what extra support can be given to Kirklees to help to keep deaths and hospitalisations low and to boost the booster programme in Kirklees?

[Sajid Javid]

My hon. Friend is right to raise the extra pressures that Kirklees is seeing. Public health officials and local council members are doing everything they can. Extra support is available—something we keep under review—but he is right to raise the importance of the booster programme. The more people who get boosted and the sooner they do so when they are eligible, the better it will be for not just them but the whole community.

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

Across the continent of Europe, mask wearing, ventilation in buildings and the use of green passes for events are commonplace. They also have much lower infection rates, hospitalisations and deaths, so while the Secretary of State addresses the backlog in the roll-out of vaccinations for children and of boosters, will he consider implementing the very good practice that can be seen in other countries?

[Sajid Javid]

In terms of the challenges of the pandemic and the challenges more generally over winter, the Government have set out a detailed plan. It depends very much on vaccinations, treatments, testing and surveillance, but we keep it constantly under review and, should we need to do more, there are contingencies.

[Chris Grayling (Epsom and Ewell) (Con)]

May I add weight to what my hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme (Aaron Bell) said earlier? I have a similar situation in my constituency at the Chalk Pit in Epsom. It is really important that we strengthen the public heath duties of the Environment Agency. Will the Secretary of State make that a priority of his discussions with his ministerial colleague?

[Sajid Javid]

Yes.

[Mr Speaker]

I call Matt Hancock—sorry, Clive Betts.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

I do not know how to respond to that, Mr Speaker, but I will carry on. In declaring an interest, I welcome the Government’s decision to give a third jab to people with compromised immune systems. There has, however, been confusion in the NHS about the difference between a booster jab and a third jab. May I therefore ask the Secretary of State where is the responsibility in the NHS for advising people and arranging the third jab, and what will be the time gap between getting a third jab and a booster, as opposed to the second jab and a booster?

[Sajid Javid]

The hon. Gentleman will know that the gaps between vaccinations, especially for different people in different groups, is a decision that the Government would be advised on by the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation, and as soon as we get that advice, we will always publish it and act on it. It is important that everyone comes forward who is invited for their third jab if they are immunocompromised or for their third jab as a booster jab. As he will know, not everyone who is immunocompromised can benefit from the vaccine, but he might be interested to know that we are working on procuring new treatments that will help significantly.

[Mr Speaker]

I call Clive Betts—go on, Matt Hancock.

[Matt Hancock (West Suffolk) (Con)]

Thanks for the warning, Mr Speaker. I congratulate the Secretary of State and the new vaccines Minister—the Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, my hon. Friend the Member for Erewash (Maggie Throup)—on the roll-out of booster jabs. Over 3 million have been administered so far. May I attempt to strengthen their hands by asking for some of the pop-up vaccination centres, such as the Brent mosque, to get going with these booster jabs so that we can make sure that people in all communities have access to these much needed boosters?

[Sajid Javid]

One of the reasons that our country has one of the most successful vaccination programmes in the world has been the efforts of my right hon. Friend, and I want to take this opportunity to thank him for that. He is right to point to the importance of access to vaccines, and making that more mobile is exactly what we are doing.

[Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD)]

Teenage vaccination rates in this country are lagging behind other countries. The latest data shows that the equivalent of 8,000 classrooms were empty over the past two weeks due to pupil absence, and schools such as Hampton High in my constituency had 11 teachers missing yesterday yet have been advised against reintroducing masks and have been told to teach 700-plus pupils outdoors. Does the Secretary of State think that that is sensible advice and will he ramp up the vaccination of teenagers, particularly over half-term next week?

[Sajid Javid]

We are ramping it up. I can tell the hon. Lady that to make the most of half-term next week, we will be opening up the national booking service to all 12 and 15-year-olds to have their covid vaccinations in existing national vaccination centres, which will offer families more flexibility. It is important that anyone who is invited as they are eligible for a vaccination—including young people—comes forward and takes up that offer.

NatWest Crouch End and Hornsey Branch

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab)]

Net Zero Strategy and Heat and Buildings Strategy

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Commons Chamber

12:39

[The Minister of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Greg Hands)]

With permission, Mr Speaker, I will make a statement on the net zero strategy and the heat and buildings strategy—but first, if I may, I will congratulate my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary and his wife Harriet on the birth of their daughter on Friday. I can report to the House that both mother and baby are healthy and doing well, as is the Secretary of State. I am sure that the whole House will join me in offering our congratulations. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.”]

The statement is all about future generations as well, because we know that we must act now on climate change. The activities of our economies, communities and societies are changing our environment. If we do not take action now, we will continue to see the worst effects of climate change.

We have already travelled a significant way down the path to net zero. Between 1990 and 2019, we grew our economy by 78% and cut our emissions by 44%, decarbonising faster than any other G7 country. Since 2010, the UK has quadrupled its renewable electricity generation and reduced carbon emissions in the power generation sector by some 70%. In the past year alone, we have published the Prime Minister’s 10-point plan for a green industrial revolution, the energy White Paper, the North sea transition deal, the industrial decarbonisation strategy, the transport decarbonisation plan, the hydrogen strategy and more. Earlier this month, we unveiled a landmark commitment to decarbonise the UK’s electricity system by 2035.

But there is still a substantial length of road to travel. We must continue to take decisive action if we are to meet our net zero goal, so today I am pleased to announce two major Government initiatives: the net zero strategy and the heat and buildings strategy. This is not just an environmental transition; it also represents an important economic change, echoing even the explosion in industry and exports in the first industrial revolution more than 250 years ago.

We will fully embrace this new, green industrial revolution, helping the UK to level up as we build back better and get to the front of the global race to go green. We need to capitalise on it to ensure that British industries and workers benefit. I can therefore announce that the strategy will support up to 440,000 jobs across sectors and across all parts of the UK in 2030. There will be more specialists in low-carbon fuels in Northern Ireland and low-carbon hydrogen in Sheffield, electric vehicle battery production in the north-east of England, engineers in Wales, green finance in London and offshore wind technicians in Scotland.

The strategy will harness the power of the private sector, giving businesses and industry the certainty they need to invest and grow in the UK and make the UK home to new, ambitious projects. The policies and spending brought forward in the strategy, along with regulations, will leverage up to £90 billion of private investment by 2030, levelling up our former industrial heartlands.

The strategy also clearly highlights the steps that the Government are taking to work with industry to bring down the costs of key technologies, from electric vehicles to heat pumps—just as we did with offshore wind, in which we are now the world leader. Those steps will give the UK a competitive edge and get us to the head of the race.

We have spoken often in this place of late about the importance of protecting consumers, and consumers are indeed at the heart of the strategy. Making green changes such as boosting the energy efficiency of our homes will help to cut the cost of bills for consumers across the UK. Switching to cleaner sources of energy will reduce our reliance on fossil fuels and, again, bring down costs down the line.

This plan is also our best route to overcoming current challenges. The current price spikes in gas show the need to reduce our reliance on volatile imported fossil fuels rapidly. Although there is a role for gas as a transition fuel, moving away from imports quickly is in the best interests of bill payers. With our ambitious set of policies, the strategy sets out how we meet carbon budgets 4 and 5 and our nationally determined contribution. It puts us on the path for carbon budget 6 and ultimately on course for net zero by 2050.

We are now setting up the industrial decarbonisation and hydrogen revenue support scheme to fund these business models and enable the first commercial-scale deployment of low-carbon hydrogen production and industrial carbon capture. We have also announced the HyNet and East Coast clusters as track 1 economic hubs for green jobs.

We have previously announced that we will end the sale of all new non zero emission road vehicles from 2040, and the sale of new petrol and diesel cars from 2030. The strategy explains that we will also introduce a zero emission vehicle mandate that will deliver on our 2030 commitment to end the sale of new petrol and diesel cars and vans.

To increase the size of our carbon sinks, we will treble the rate at which we are planting new trees in England by the end of the current Parliament. We will be a global leader in developing and deploying the green technologies of the future. The strategy announces a £1.5 billion fund to support net zero innovation projects, which provides finance for low-carbon technologies across the areas of the Prime Minister’s “Ten Point Plan”.

We have also published our heat and buildings strategy, which sets out our plans to significantly cut carbon emissions from the UK’s 30 million homes and workplaces in a simple way that remains affordable and fair for British households. We will gradually move away from fossil fuel heating and improve the energy performance of our buildings through measures such as grants of up to £5,000 towards the costs of heat pumps, a further £800 million for the social housing decarbonisation fund to upgrade social housing, and a further £950 million for a home upgrade grant scheme to improve and decarbonise low-income homes off the gas grid.

The year 2021 is a vital year for action on climate change. In just two weeks’ time, the UK Government will host the crucial United Nations COP26 conference in Glasgow. As the Prime Minister has said, it needs to be a “turning point for humanity”, the point at which we pull together—and pull our socks up—to keep 1.5 °C in reach. Hosting COP26 will also give the UK a huge opportunity to showcase our world-leading climate credentials and set an example to other countries to raise their own ambitions. The net zero strategy will take centre stage in our display, setting out our vision for a UK that is cleaner, greener, and more innovative.

Mr Speaker, we are ready for Glasgow, and I commend this statement to the House.

12:46

[Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his statement, and send my warmest congratulations—as I have already done directly—to the Secretary of State on the birth of his new baby.

Let me start by saying that it is good that tackling the climate crisis is a shared national objective across the House, and that we want the Government to succeed at COP26 in just ten days’ time. However, there are two central questions about the strategy that has been published today: does it finally close the yawning gap between Government promises and delivery, and will it make the public investment which is essential to ensure that the green transition is fair and creates jobs? I am afraid that the answer to both questions, despite what the Minister said, is no. The plan falls short on delivery, and while there is modest short-term investment, there is nothing like the commitment that we believe is required—and we know why. When asked at the weekend about the Treasury’s approach to these issues, a source from the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy said:

“They are not climate change deniers but they are emphasising the short-term risks, rather than long-term needs”.

The Chancellor’s fingerprints are all over these documents, and not in a good way.

We have waited months for the heat and buildings strategy, but it is a massive let-down. We are in the midst of an energy price crisis caused by a decade of inaction. Emissions from buildings are higher than they were in 2015. The biggest single programme that could make a difference is a 10-year house-by-house, street-by-street retrofit plan to cut bills and emissions and ensure energy security. There are 19 million homes below EPC band C, but according to the best estimates of today’s proposals, they will help just a tiny fraction of that number. Indeed, there is not even a replacement for the ill-fated green homes grant for homeowners. Can the Minister explain where the long-term retrofit plan is? Did BEIS argue for it and get turned down by the Treasury, or did he not make the case?

According to the Government’s own target, we need 600,000 homes a year to be installing heat pumps by 2028, but the Government are funding just 30,000 a year, helping just one in 250 households on the gas grid. Why does the Minister’s plan on heat pumps fall so far short of what is required? As for transport, we agree with the transition to electric cars—and I support and welcome the zero emissions mandate—but we need to make it fair to consumers. We should at the very least have had long-term zero-interest loans to cut the costs of purchasing electric cars. What is the plan to make them accessible to all, and not just the richest? Will the Minister tell us that in his reply? On nuclear, I was surprised, given the advance publicity, that the word did not even cross the Minister’s lips. We have seen a decade of inaction and delay on this issue, so can he tell us why there is still no decision on new nuclear?

The failure to invest affects not just whether this transition is fair for consumers but workers in existing industries. Take steel: it will cost £6 billion for the steel industry to get to net zero over the next 15 years. If we want a steel industry—as we do across the House—we will need to share the costs with the private sector. However, there is nothing for steel in this document, and a £250 million clean steel fund some way down the road will not cut it. Can he give us his estimates of the needs of the steel industry and how he thinks they can be met?

The same is true of investing in new industries such as hydrogen. There is a global race in these areas and I am afraid that the UK is not powering ahead but falling behind. Germany is offering €9 billion for a new hydrogen strategy; the UK is offering £240 million, and we are putting off decisions until later in the decade. We see the same pattern across the board, including on land use, industry and transport, and because of this failure to invest, there remains a chasm between promises and delivery.

Finally, it was noticeable that the Minister did not say that the plan would meet the target for the 2035 sixth carbon budget, but surely that is a basic prerequisite of the strategy to 2050. At less than halfway to net zero, do the policies in this document meet the target, or fall short of it? Despite hundreds of pages of plans, strategies and hot air, there is still a chasm between the Government’s rhetoric and the reality? My fear is that the plan will not deliver the fair, prosperous transition that we need and that is equal to the scale of the emergency we face.

[Greg Hands]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his warm words of congratulation to the Secretary of State and for his intention to join us in showing real leadership. I agree with him that this should not be a particularly partisan matter. The UK as a whole country expects to see our politicians working together, particularly in the run-up to our hosting the vital COP26. I will deal with his various points in turn.

On power, it is worth pointing out the success that we have had on renewables. The right hon. Gentleman was Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change up to 2010. When he left office, renewables were only about 10% of our power mix; now the figure is around 43%. Offshore wind costs have come down by two thirds. He mentioned nuclear, but I am just about old enough to remember the 1997 new Labour manifesto, which stated that there would be no new nuclear projects. It took Labour 10 years to do anything at all on nuclear.

The right hon. Gentleman called our investment in heat and buildings a modest one, but it is £4 billion. The difference between us is that we want to go with the natural choices that families make and to work with businesses, finding the natural point at which a homeowner needs to replace his or her boiler and to incentivise the take-up of a greener choice. He says that the £450 million investment is somehow inadequate, but I think that it will kick-start demand. Octopus Energy and others have said overnight that they think that they can make heat pumps at an equivalent cost to natural gas boilers by April 2022. I have confidence in the ability of British industry and British energy companies to innovate.

On energy-intensive industries, we have our £350 million industry energy transformation fund and we are speaking continually with the sector. We will keep the House informed on that. On nuclear, I have said that new money has been announced. There is the £120 million future nuclear enabling fund for optionality for future advanced modular reactors. Of course we are sticking to our commitment for a final investment decision on a further nuclear power station to be taken in this Parliament.

On hydrogen, the right hon. Gentleman is right to say that the German Government have done good work, through my good friend Peter Altmaier, the German industry and trade Minister, but the UK also has a world-leading hydrogen strategy, which was launched in August. We are aiming for 5 GW of low-carbon hydrogen generation capacity by the year 2030.

On the right hon. Gentleman’s final comment about 2030, our commitment is unchanged, but let us look at his commitment for a moment. [Hon. Members: “It was 2035.”] His leader, the right hon. and learned Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Keir Starmer), backed a 2019 manifesto commitment to go to net zero by 2030. Such a commitment would cripple the hard-won economic growth that we have achieved over the past 30 years through our steady approach of growing the economy and reducing emissions at the same time. Even the GMB has said:

“Nobody thinks 2030 is a remotely achievable deadline.”

The CBI has said that there is no credible plan to achieving net zero by 2030. This Government have the right ambition. This is a transition, and it is full of opportunities for jobs and low and zero carbon growth across the UK. The right hon. Gentleman should be backing it in full in the lead-up to Glasgow.

[John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)]

If heat pumps and electric cars are going to help, we will need to generate all our electricity from green sources, so when will the Government commission the very large amounts of new generating capacity we will need to make them work when the wind does not blow and the sun does not shine?

[Greg Hands]

I thank my right hon. Friend for, as always, putting his question very directly, which I have appreciated over many years in the House. I have mentioned our commitment to nuclear and our commitment to the gas sector as a transition fuel. Fortunately, at the moment, we are dependent largely on domestic gas production, in that 50% of our gas usage comes from the UK continental shelf while 30% comes from Norway. The point here is to ramp up our commitment to low and zero carbon fuels. That makes sense for the environment, for our economic security and for our diversification.

[Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)]

The key point in the announcement today is the fact that Peterhead has once again been betrayed. All along, warm words have been paid to the Scottish cluster, but we have been stabbed in the back again. Classing the Scottish cluster as a reserve is an even bigger insult. What representations has the Minister had from the Scottish Secretary of State about what is happening to Peterhead? Can he also confirm that this is a political decision rather than a technical one, given that the Scottish cluster ticks all the boxes and would have contributed to the hydrogen production target?

The Minister keeps going on about nuclear, but the reality is that, at £23 billion, Hinkley is the most expensive power station in the world. Its strike rate is £92.50 per megawatt-hour, compared with offshore wind at less than £40 per megawatt-hour. What is the capital cost in billions of pounds that the Government are willing to commit to, given that it could be better spent elsewhere? What funding is coming to Scotland on the back of the announcement of the social housing decarbonisation fund and the home upgrade grant schemes?

If we look at Scotland in the round, we see that it has contributed £350 billion in oil and gas revenues over the years. Where is the UK Government’s match funding for the £500 million just transition fund that the Scottish Government have committed to the north-east of Scotland? The Minister talks about levelling up, but his levelling up does not include Scotland. We have the highest electricity grid charges in Europe, which puts renewable energy in Scotland at risk, as it is 20% more expensive than in the south-east of England. That also affects the UK’s net zero trajectory. Scottish energy consumers are now made to pay for their nuclear, which we do not want, and Peterhead has been sacrificed for the red wall constituencies. When it comes to Scotland, the UK Government are not helping us tackle climate change but are instead adopting a scorched earth policy as we head towards independence.

[Greg Hands]

I spent significant time in Aberdeen last week, and I did not meet a lot of people who share the hon. Gentleman’s doom and gloom approach to all things when it comes to energy. I had meetings with Oil & Gas UK, Robert Gordon University, Harbour Energy, CHC Helicopter and Jim Milne of Balmoral Group, and I found a region and a city that are enthusiastic about the energy transition and our North sea transition deal.

I have already mentioned nuclear and the new funding that is available, and I am disappointed that the SNP remains resolutely anti-nuclear, which I think it will regret. I think the Scottish people do not agree with the SNP.

Today’s announcement on carbon clusters is for track 1, and it is not the end of the story—far from it. We have always been clear that we will have two industrial clusters by the mid-2020s, and four by 2030 at the latest. We have announced the Acorn cluster as a reserve. It met the eligibility criteria and performed to a good standard against the evaluation criteria, and we will continue to engage with it throughout phase 2 of the sequencing process to ensure it can continue its development and planning. We remain committed to track 2. This morning the Carbon Capture and Storage Association welcomed today’s announcement as “amazing news” for carbon capture and storage.

The hon. Gentleman asked about home grants. Of course, a lot of these policy areas are devolved. He might have a word with his SNP colleagues in Edinburgh and perhaps get them to participate, as they will get Barnett consequentials. Ironically, the heat pumps scheme for England and Wales will be administered by Ofgem out of its office in Glasgow. Those administering the scheme will not be eligible for it themselves unless the Scottish Government take action to match what the UK Government have said.

Finally, on the North sea transition, energy in Scotland and the move to net zero, I urge the hon. Gentleman for once to take a more positive approach and get with us, particularly as we prepare to host the world in Glasgow in just two weeks’ time.

[Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con)]

Levelling up is very important, and it means all parts of the country, including rural areas, having the ability to become net zero. In constituencies like mine, many homes are not capable of being brought up to very high levels of energy efficiency and are not on the gas grid. What is the solution to make sure owners of those homes, who are perhaps not on the highest of incomes, can decarbonise their heat at an affordable price?

[Greg Hands]

My right hon. Friend is right to highlight off-grid properties and the importance of making sure that the overall Government agenda, including levelling up, reaches those people. On top of my announcement, we have already committed £2.5 billion to off-grid properties through the home upgrade grant and will explore extending it to 2030.

[Darren Jones (Bristol North West) (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for giving me an advance copy of his statement this morning.

People across the country will want to know whether the promises made today will actually be delivered or whether they will, once again, result in failure. Will the Minister set out how the voucher schemes announced today will be delivered differently from the failed schemes of the past, such as the green homes grant?

[Greg Hands]

The hon. Gentleman asks a reasonable question with a rather unreasonable preamble, if he does not mind my saying so. I do not think there have been failures of Government policy in this area. Actually, our overall record—not just this Government’s record but the record of the country as a whole over the past 30 years in reducing emissions while achieving economic growth—is one of success.

Of course we are learning from previous schemes, and we are making sure that this new scheme goes with the flow and is simpler and easier to administer. We will also make sure that the parameters are set very clearly in the lead-up to the launch next April.

[Andy Carter (Warrington South) (Con)]

I welcome the Government’s support for the HyNet cluster, which is a huge vote of confidence in north-west businesses. Does my right hon. Friend agree that this announcement will put the north-west and the UK at the cutting edge of hydrogen technology and will help to secure thousands of jobs in the north-west, including in Warrington?

[Greg Hands]

I concur with my hon. Friend, who is a tireless champion for his Warrington constituents. We are delighted with today’s announcement. Carbon capture, utilisation and storage is a huge opportunity for the UK. When I talk to the industry, it makes strong points about how the UK is geologically, geographically and economically well suited to make sure that carbon capture, utilisation and storage is a big part of our low-carbon future, and I commend him for his support for the HyNet cluster in the north-west of England and across into north Wales.

[Clive Lewis (Norwich South) (Lab)]

There are two problems with the Government’s net zero strategy: “net” and “zero”. The latter because it is not zero—we know there are sectors, such as aviation, that will be pumping out millions of tonnes of emissions into the atmosphere beyond 2050—and the former because we know the Government are relying on negative emissions technologies that, frankly, are based on science fiction and for which there is no prospect of mass roll-out. We are banking on this to rescue us from the climate crisis, but it is a “burn now, pay later” strategy that is not fit for purpose.

[Greg Hands]

That is sort of a question, for which I thank the hon. Gentleman. He might be a proponent of the Labour party’s net zero by 2030 policy. I am not sure whether the shadow Secretary of State supports that policy, which I think was ratified at the Labour party conference.

We have already talked about carbon capture, utilisation and storage, which is a sound technology in which the UK will look to be a world leader. The Climate Change Committee itself has said that it will not be possible for every single part of the UK economy to be net zero. That is the importance of the word “net” in all of this. It is about making sure that we get to net zero by 2050, so it does not have to apply across all sectors. Of course we want it to apply across all sectors, and the North Sea transition deal for the oil and gas sector has a commitment to go to net zero, but overall it is about making sure the country gets to net zero by 2050.

[Graham Stuart (Beverley and Holderness) (Con)]

I congratulate the Minister on today’s announcement. We will be celebrating the decision to increase the home upgrade grant and, of course, the excellent decision to make the east coast cluster one of the two carbon capture projects in the initial stage. Does he agree that we must make sure that, following the success of our offshore wind deployment, we build industrial capability in carbon capture and storage and in hydrogen so that we can be an export superpower in these areas over the years ahead?

[Greg Hands]

My hon. Friend and I spent many happy, productive years working together in the Department for International Trade to market our technological breakthroughs in clean energy, particularly in offshore wind. He makes an extremely strong point about CCUS. When I talk to people in the sector, one of the points they make most frequently is about the UK’s ability to be an early mover, to get in quickly and to take advantage of export capabilities. I completely agree and commend my hon. Friend for the work he did over quite some time as our exports Minister.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

The steel industry’s transition to net zero requires £6 billion of investment, yet the clean steel fund provides only 4% of that. Does the Minister really think that is enough?

[Greg Hands]

We are in constant dialogue with the steel sector, and the hon. Gentleman and I both know that half of steel production and half the jobs in the sector were lost under the last Labour Government. Steel has been facing worldwide pressure for some years, but we are strongly supportive of the UK steel sector. The Secretary of State and the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Derbyshire (Lee Rowley), who now has responsibility for steel, frequently engage with the sector. We continually speak to the sector and will keep the House informed. Personally, I think our £350 million industrial energy transformation fund is a considerable commitment to the sector.

[Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con)]

I welcome the steps set out by my right hon. Friend to unleash the potential of our whole country. Can he reassure my Ynys Môn constituents that they will benefit from the 440,000 net zero jobs being created by 2030 and the £90 billion of private investment? Will he accept my invitation to visit Wylfa Newydd and see at first hand why the Prime Minister is such a fervent supporter?

[Greg Hands]

I thank my hon. Friend, who is a tireless advocate for Ynys Môn, particularly on the economy and jobs. Of course, Ynys Môn, the whole of Wales and north Wales will benefit from the new green jobs that this net zero strategy will help to foster. The new money announced today for the future nuclear enabling fund is for optionality for the future, so that we can make future decisions based on good information on nuclear. Obviously, that includes potential for sites such as Wylfa.

[Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (Alba)]

The Minister talks, in effect, of crumbs for Scotland, the renewable energy capital of Europe, with a few jobs as technicians offshore, whereas my constituency is the fourth most impacted by the cuts to working tax credit and universal credit. We can couple that with the escalation of fuel prices, so I want to know: why do the UK Government insist on levying connection charges not to France or the Nordic countries, but uniquely to Scotland, driving away investment, jobs and ambitions for our green future and for an end to fuel poverty in Scotland?

[Greg Hands]

I did not quite understand the hon. Gentleman’s point about connectivity, but what I will say to him is this: Scotland is vital for the UK’s energy needs, both currently and in the future. On oil and gas, 50% of the gas currently consumed in this country comes from the UK continental shelf, and Scotland is vital for that. It is also vital for our future offshore wind capabilities, and other low-carbon and renewable energies. That is exactly the technology, capability and capacity that I saw last week in Aberdeen. Perhaps he might get a little more optimistic about Scotland’s future when it comes to energy, because I certainly am.

[Jo Gideon (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Con)]

I welcome my right hon. Friend’s statement and the Government’s commitment to helping all industrial clusters to decarbonise as we transition to net zero by 2050. As an energy-intensive sector, the decarbonisation of the ceramics industry will play a crucial role in this transition, which is why I am delighted to back the British Ceramic Confederation’s plans for a virtual ceramics sustainability hub, based in Stoke-on-Trent, to develop new decarbonisation technology, including carbon capture and storage. Does the Minister agree that Government support is vital to help the ceramic industry decarbonise by 2050? Will he meet me and other Stoke colleagues to discuss these ambitious plans for the creation of a virtual ceramics sustainability hub?

[Greg Hands]

I am always ready to meet our three brilliant Conservative Members of Parliament for Stoke. I have met them over the years on a host of different topics, often in relation to ceramics and with the BCC. I remind my hon. Friend about the £350 million industry energy transformation fund and the fact that we will be in continuous dialogue with the three MPs and with the sector, and of course I would be very happy to meet her and her colleagues.

[Dame Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

Once again, we hear warm words, big headlines and big figures from the Government, but too little detail, as the Public Accounts Committee has repeatedly highlighted. So I hope the Minister will make sure that there are repeated and meaningful reports to Parliament on these figures, good or bad, so that we can keep a track on this. Will he also look at the issue of people’s behaviour? As others have highlighted, there is a challenge on not just the money but the hassle factor, for example, in greening homes that are very challenging to insulate. How is the Department looking at that? Will he commit to do so?

[Greg Hands]

The hon. Lady asks a set of very reasonable questions. First, I commend her for saying that the Government have announced big figures, because her Front-Bench colleague, the right hon. Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband), seemed to think they were very small figures. I agree with her that these are very, very big figures of Government money being committed.

The hon. Lady asked a reasonable question on people’s behaviour. Of course we want to make things as straightforward, simple and transparent for consumers as possible. We want people to be making the change—to be incentivised—and the Government are putting in the financial incentives. We want people to feel incentivised to make the right choices. That can be something as simple as making the scheme straightforward and easy to understand. That is where we will be moving on the replacement boiler programme, making sure that it is as easy as possible for people to understand when it starts next April.

[Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

The cost-effectiveness of heat pumps is critically dependent on the cost of electricity, and there is good reason to think that the overall of cost of renewables to the bill payer is still extremely high, including subsidies. So will the Minister subject his assumptions on his heat pump strategy to a comprehensive audit of the price of renewable electricity?

[Greg Hands]

My hon. Friend is tireless in his ability and desire to get to the bottom of what lies behind Government figures. Perhaps I might commit to meet him, as, having taken on this brief four weeks ago, I know he takes a strong interest in all aspects of energy and climate change. Perhaps I might agree to meet him to discuss his concerns first, before committing to a new, huge audit of anything.

[Wera Hobhouse (Bath) (LD)]

I welcome the Government’s setting an end date for the use of gas boilers, but of course switching to electricity for heating our homes makes sense only if the electricity used is not derived from fossil fuels. Because of the Lib Dems in government, the renewables sector has made big strides, but it is by no means accelerating in the way it should be. So will the Government take the opportunity before COP26 to announce an end date for using fossil fuels in the production of electricity?

[Greg Hands]

We already have, as I mentioned in the statement, our commitment to a decarbonisation of our electricity system by 2035. However, may I take issue with her about renewables because we have had a massive amount of success, particularly since 2015? The cost of offshore wind, for example, has been reduced by two thirds since 2015, when there was a sole Conservative Government. We also have the commitment to have a really big increase in renewables. We currently have the world’s largest installed offshore wind capacity, at about 10 GW. We are committed to not resting on our laurels and to quadrupling that capacity in the next 10 years, to 40 GW.

[Duncan Baker (North Norfolk) (Con)]

The UK Government should be roundly applauded: we continue to be one of the nations in the world that decarbonises at one of the fastest rates, as my right hon. Friend has said. Operational carbon is just one of the pieces of the jigsaw, as is embodied carbon. What assessment has he made of regulating embodied carbon in the construction sector?

[Greg Hands]

My hon. Friend makes a good point on the importance of the construction sector. Obviously, there has to be a read-across between Government policies, our commitment to infrastructure, our commitment to new homes and so on. So I will happily meet him to discuss the construction sector and its carbon footprint. On decarbonising the fastest in the G7, I thank him for his words of support. This has been a huge UK success story, particularly over the past 30 years. In the first half of my adult life, we have done really well as a country overall. I recall that in 1989 the Green party ran on a manifesto that said we could take action on global warming only if we either froze or reduced the size of the economy. This country, with its 78% increase in the size of the economy, while reducing emissions by 44% in the first half of my adult life, has shown the world the way forward to reaching net zero at the end of—well, I hope not at the end of the second half of my adult life, but in the second half of my adult life to come.

[Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)]

There are about a quarter of a million homes in Leeds with gas boilers. I have many constituents, as all Members have, who are struggling to pay the gas bill at the moment, let alone face the prospect of paying between £6,000 and £15,000 for a new heat pump, notwithstanding the grants that the Minister has announced today or the hope, which we all share, that the cost of heat pumps will fall. What is the Government’s plan for ensuring that all households in our communities are able to make the transition to a zero-carbon future, which we know must happen?

[Greg Hands]

We remain absolutely committed to our existing target of 600,000 homes per annum having a heat pump by 2028, and the scheme announced today shows that direction of travel. We are not saying that the scheme will provide a heat pump for every house; it will kick-start the market. We have already seen really positive reactions. I mentioned the reaction of, among others in the sector, Octopus Energy, which said overnight that it thinks it can deliver an equivalent price—we will watch such commitments closely—by as early as April next year. That is where the opportunity lies for the right hon. Gentleman’s constituents and mine: not in the Government’s coming along and replacing everybody’s gas boiler, but by the Government’s sending a signal to kick-start the market and show that we want the private sector to respond positively.

[Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)]

Rugby is at the heart of National Grid’s gas pipeline network, which runs across the country from one side to the other. In the summer, I visited National Grid’s Churchover site, which is a substantial national asset. We know that harmful emissions from gas can be reduced in the short term by putting hydrogen up to 20% in the existing natural gas network, and in the longer term we can move to 100% hydrogen. Will the Minister confirm that, although we hear about stopping the installation of gas boilers, a substantial future for gas in our energy supply remains?

[Greg Hands]

My hon. Friend makes a good point. Of course, gas has a substantial future in our energy supply, certainly in the short term. Currently, 50% of our gas comes from the UK continental shelf, so it is very important for us, notwithstanding high international wholesale gas prices. The Climate Change Committee has itself said that it is not inconsistent with net zero for there to be a contribution from the oil and gas sector, even in 2050. It is now a question of working with the sector, which is why we have done the North sea transition deal. We are working with the industry, in partnership with the Oil and Gas Authority, to make sure that we make the necessary transformation. A lot of the skills in the oil and gas sector are transferable to, for example, offshore wind.

[Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)]

As chair of the all-party parliamentary group on CCUS, I am delighted by today’s announcement that the Tees, along with our Humber colleagues, will lead the way on CCUS and hydrogen production. In the past, we have had several false starts, with the Government withdrawing funding, so I hope we get it over the line this time. How will the Minister ensure that Teesside workers will get the jobs and skills to develop the new industries and that the people of Teesside get a real dividend?

[Greg Hands]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s warm congratulation on that decision. Perhaps he might have a word with some of his colleagues near him on the Opposition Benches. He makes a good point about Teesside. We will work closely with Teesside Members of Parliament and with the Tees Valley Mayor, Ben Houchen, with whom I had an excellent conversation on this subject just a couple of weeks ago, to make sure that the skills base in Teesside improves and continues to be trained to make sure that it can continue to meet the challenges of the low-carbon future. When I was up in Hartlepool in Teesside just a few weeks ago, I was incredibly impressed to see the new investment in, for example, cabling by an offshore wind company. That company was adamant that there were good skills there, but we must keep working to improve those skills as we go forward.

[David Duguid (Banff and Buchan) (Con)]

rose—

[Derek Thomas (St Ives) (Con)]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

I call David Duguid.

[Derek Thomas]

I welcome the Minister’s statement and the strategy itself, which says that 80% of fossil-fuel-heated off-grid homes could accommodate a low-temperature heating system. The potential to develop the most fuel-poor homes, many of which are in my constituency, is enormous. The Minister is right to mention the development and affordability of heating units themselves as things progress, but to fit such a unit, a person needs to insulate their home well and increase the size of their radiators. They may even need to increase the supply of energy to their home, as I found out in my own case. Will the Minister give careful thought to the up-front cost of fitting such a unit for a fuel-poor home, and all the other costs that make a home the home that people deserve?

[Greg Hands]

My hon. Friend makes some excellent points. I spent part of my childhood in Cornwall and I thought that where I lived then was pretty far from here, but his constituency is yet further, so I know some of the challenges that face his St Ives constituents. We want to keep the scheme as simple, straightforward, transparent and easy-to-understand as possible, but my hon. Friend’s points about insulation and energy efficiency in homes are well met. I will continue to talk with him and other Cornish MPs, and with MPs from other parts of the country, as we move forward.

[Deidre Brock (Edinburgh North and Leith) (SNP)]

The north-east of Scotland is the home of the offshore industry and the obvious location for a carbon-capture project. Years ago, the Tories pulled the plug on the carbon capture and storage competitions before Peterhead won through, and it is now clear that the UK Government have put the holding of seats in the red wall of northern England ahead of saving jobs in Aberdeen and the north-east. How can the Government say they are delivering a just transition if the Tories put pork barrel politics ahead of supporting the ideal location for CCUS at St Fergus?

[Greg Hands]

I get tired of the politics of division that we hear from the SNP all the time. It is the politics of pitting Scotland against, in this case, the north of England. We are a Government for the whole United Kingdom and I bitterly regret the hon. Lady’s language and her accusation that we have somehow put the north of England in a privileged position relative to other parts of the UK. We have been clear that in track 1 there will be at least two industrial clusters by the mid-2020s and four by 2030 at the latest. We have the Acorn cluster as a reserve. As I said earlier, it met the eligibility criteria and performed to a good standard. We will continue to engage with the sector so that it can continue its development and planning.

[Mr Speaker]

I have Derek Thomas next, so it must be David Duguid.

[David Duguid]

On behalf of Cornwall—no, I rise to speak on behalf of my constituency of Banff and Buchan, to which I shall turn in a moment. First, I thank my right hon. Friend the Minister for his visit last week to Aberdeen, where he expressed the Government’s ongoing and continuous support for the oil and gas sector and its valuable role in the energy transition to net zero. The North sea transition deal includes carbon capture and storage; far be it from me to correct the hon. Member for Kilmarnock and Loudoun (Alan Brown), but the hon. Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Deidre Brock) got it right: it is St Fergus, not Peterhead. Is it not entirely predictable from SNP Members? They have been practising their script since before the bids even came in—they gleefully declare betrayal.

Given the fact that the Government have already expended £31 million in the Scottish cluster, will my right hon. Friend meet me to discuss the Government’s plans to help the Scottish cluster to develop and plan not only as a reserve but certainly for the next track of negotiations?

[Greg Hands]

I will of course meet my hon. Friend to discuss that. I thank him for taking a strong interest in my visit to Aberdeen last week. He is right that the oil and gas sector is in transition, welcomes the North sea transition deal and wants to work closely with the Government, the OGA, Oil & Gas UK and so on in continuing to make a massive contribution to Scotland and the whole of the United Kingdom.

On carbon capture, utilisation and storage, this is not the end of the story, as I said. We need to make a decision and make progress, but Acorn is the first reserve. If Members look at the rest of our policy, they will see that there is potential to expand our commitment yet further in advance of 2030.

[Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)]

The delivery of a target of 600,000 new heat pumps by 2028 requires significant resource; otherwise, only the very well-off will be able to afford the cost of both the heat pump and the additional insulation that most homes would need to make the pumps cost-effective. As the hon. Member for St Ives (Derek Thomas) said, many homes will need additional power supplies. Will the Government therefore extend their ambition and link the programme for adequate insulation with adequate funding for heat pumps, such that more people than just the very well-off will be able to deliver the changes according to the Government’s strategy?

[Greg Hands]

The hon. Lady underestimates our commitment, because it is not 600,000 new heat pumps, but 600,000 new heat pumps per annum by 2028. This is a huge commitment, but it is a commitment that is best met largely by the private sector. That is why we strongly believe that the announcement that we made today on the grants of up to £5,000 will kickstart the private sector in providing these heat pumps. I have already pointed overnight to the welcome of this announcement by the energy companies, which think that they can get the price of those heat pumps down. That is the right strategy, rather than having the Government pay for everything to meet that commitment. I think it is about working with the private sector. The ball is now partly in the energy companies’ court to see whether they can get the price of those heat pumps down.

[James Wild (North West Norfolk) (Con)]

Many people in villages in North West Norfolk live in poorly insulated homes. Can my right hon. Friend ensure that the home upgrade scheme and other schemes in this strategy help my rural constituents to live in warmer, more efficient homes?

[Greg Hands]

The comments that I made in relation to Cornwall earlier probably also apply to parts of north Norfolk. Of course I will commit to making sure that households that are in fuel poverty and that have poor insulation, including those in remote areas, will get the support that they need and deserve.

[Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab)]

Many of us on the Labour Benches, including my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster North (Edward Miliband) and my hon. Friend the Member for Stockton North (Alex Cunningham), have been articulating the case for carbon capture, usage and storage for many years. Despite the shortcomings of the statement, including any clarity on whether the net zero strategy will meet the 2035 sixth carbon budget, the east coast cluster announcement is most welcome. Will the Minister ensure that the collective voice of working people, through their trade unions, is heard, and that all stakeholders, including Ben Houchen, the mayor, part company with the anti-trade union rhetoric and work in an inclusive and co-operative manner to ensure that the economic and employment opportunities are fully delivered for working people in my Middlesbrough constituency and across Teesside?

[Greg Hands]

I absolutely agree with the hon. Gentleman on working with workforces. The commitment to net zero is a huge, country-wide endeavour and we must carry everybody with us. May I perhaps suggest that he has a word with the trade unions, because they have been extremely critical of Labour’s official policy, which is to get to net zero by 2030? As I have mentioned, the GMB has said that nobody thinks that 2030 is a “remotely achievable deadline”. Another said that it would be a huge upheaval, leading to job losses in the industry. I agree with what he has to say, but perhaps he might have a word with those on his Front Bench as well.

[Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)]

The transition to net zero emboldens politicians to use ambitious rhetoric, but they cross their fingers that the reality of implementation will be as planned. That is because, as my right hon. Friend knows, he is dealing with tremendous amounts of uncertainty over the fact that chosen technologies may not work or may be superseded, that anticipated unit cost reductions may not be achieved and that the first-mover advantage may result in heavy costs but illusory or temporary sources of competitive advantage. Can he advise me on what his Department is doing to calibrate correctly the extent of the use of taxpayers’ money, the extent of additional levies on business and the extent of additional burdens on householders in the achievement of his strategy?

[Greg Hands]

Mr Speaker, as a former Chief Secretary to the Treasury, you can imagine that I take a strong and ongoing interest in exactly that sort of question. We at BEIS have those discussions with the Treasury and the whole of Government all of the time to make sure that the plan here is both achievable and affordable and that it will be realised to enable us to meet all of those targets that we have set ourselves. I am looking forward to interacting with my hon. Friend on any specific concerns that he may have going forward, but his question and his points are the sorts of things that are very much on our minds.

[Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

Obviously, £450 million for heat pumps across England and Wales is a good thing, but it is set to benefit only 0.3% of Welsh households, while the future generations commissioner calculates that the cost of decarbonising Wales’s housing stock stands at £14.75 billion. The Treasury has resisted every step on the road to COP26. Our economy, our environment and our communities need Treasury funding to step up to the mark to lead the transformational investment. That will give the private sector confidence. How confident is the Minister that this news will reach us within the next 10 days?

[Greg Hands]

A very substantial amount of Government money is going into the heat and building strategy—I think it is in the region of £4 billion. I will correct the right hon. Lady. On this heat pump scheme that we have introduced, the idea is that it kickstarts the market and gets the private sector providing solutions. We have already seen a really good response to our signals from the private sector. That is exactly right, because the solutions to issues such as home heating will lie principally with the private sector.

[Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Con)]

Further to the points made by my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent Central (Jo Gideon) earlier, the ceramics sector in Stoke-on-Trent has faced significant energy price volatility recently. It does want to transition, but it cannot do so on its own while continuing to be competitive internationally. Will my right hon. Friend ensure that we have our fair share of the additional R&D money that this Government are committed to investing in the UK?

[Greg Hands]

I am absolutely committed to that. My BEIS colleagues who look after research and development are absolutely committed to making sure that British ceramics are not sold short when it comes to R&D. We have a huge commitment to the sector overall, which my hon. Friend will know from the many years that we have worked together, particularly on trade issues as they affect the ceramics sector, including trying to break down trade barriers to make sure not only that our industry flourishes here in the UK, but that our exports do as well. I commend the work that he and all of the Stoke Conservative MPs have been doing for the sector for some years now.

[Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)]

Missing from the plan is the retrofit skills strategy. The City of York Council has a backlog of more than 6,000 maintenance and retrofit jobs to do. How does the Minister expect those skills to come forward and how will people be trained? Why has he left it so late to upskill the workforce?

[Greg Hands]

I agree with some of the points that the hon. Lady makes about the importance of skills, but I do not think that it is about our delivering the message late. This Government’s commitment to skills and to reskilling if necessary has been absolutely clear. It can be seen right the way across Government in the very close work being done together by BEIS and the Department for Education. I see it in so many sectors. I will mention again my visit to Aberdeen last week. I appreciate that Aberdeen is some distance from her constituency, but the sector there has to be able to reskill a lot of people from offshore oil and gas to offshore wind. It is that kind of thing that we need to see on a transition and a long-term basis. It is exactly this idea of making sure that we can retrain and reclassify people from today’s skills to fit the skills for tomorrow. That is absolutely part of our commitment.

[Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (SNP)]

The Minister talks about ending the sale of petrol and diesel cars by 2030. To do so, we will need drivers to switch to zero-emission vehicles over the next decade. Despite the upfront costs of electric cars still being significantly higher, the financial incentives to switch continue to be diluted. I welcome the shadow Secretary of State’s support for the SNP Scottish Government’s interest-free loan scheme for new and used zero-emission cars, but the Government’s zero-emission vehicle mandate will not even be legislated on until 2024. Nearly half the decade will be behind us when the mandate comes in. Why are the Government moving this policy forward in first gear?

[Greg Hands]

I disagree with the hon. Gentleman. The transport section in the net zero strategy is very comprehensive on this and very extensive on how we get more people to switch to electric vehicles. In terms of some of the details, I invite him to ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport who leads on this at the next Transport questions.

[Mr Clive Betts (Sheffield South East) (Lab)]

The other week, Lord Deben, the chair of the Climate Change Committee, speaking at the Housing, Communities and Local Government Committee, indicated that, if we are to hit the Committee’s targets, local government has an incredibly important role to play in the retrofitting of existing homes, the building of new homes, local planning policies and local transport policies. Is it therefore not disappointing that there is not one single mention of the role of local government in the Minister’s announcement today? What has the Minister to say about that?

[Greg Hands]

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the annex of the net zero strategy, which sets out in some detail our response to Lord Deben’s annual report earlier this year. I think he will find in the annex a lot of the good mentions of local government for which he has been looking.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

The zero-emissions vehicle mandate is welcome, although, as the hon. Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire North (Gavin Newlands) said, the Government do need to get a move on. They have been cutting plug-in grants year on year, and there are now reports that the Chancellor wants to axe them all together. What in this strategy will actually help to make the purchase of electric vehicles more affordable for the average consumer?

[Greg Hands]

Nobody should doubt the Government’s commitment to getting a switch to electric vehicles. I certainly hope that the shadow Secretary of State has been taking an interest in that in recent times—

[Edward Miliband]

indicated assent.

[Greg Hands]

He is nodding in the affirmative, so that is one more.

Like the overall commitment, this commitment is very much on an ongoing basis. I refer the hon. Lady to the transport section of the net zero strategy and to the annex regarding the Climate Change Committee’s report.

[Anna McMorrin (Cardiff North) (Lab)]

The Minister says that he wants to work collaboratively, yet he did not reach out to the Welsh Labour Government or share plans, despite saying that he was going to. Of course, plans on net zero are welcome, but this is greenwash wrapped up with a great big green bow. Only the most well off will benefit from the heat pumps, and the Government have not made clear the new measures that householders will also need, including insulation, water storage and new radiators. The Government are also still building truly awful, inefficient homes. When are they going to step up and really take the action needed to meet the zero carbon commitment?

[Greg Hands]

The hon. Lady has packed a lot into that question, but let me come back to her with two points. First of all, we have shared an advance copy of the plans with the Welsh Government and I spoke to the Welsh Government Minister yesterday on this very topic.

Secondly, the hon. Lady says that only the well off will benefit. Our target is 600,000 homes per annum; that will reach down very far into the homes in this country. I am absolutely confident of that, particularly given the commitments being made by different energy companies to make heat pumps cheaper. I mentioned earlier the commitment from one company overnight to make a heat pump of equivalent price to a gas boiler. That gives rise to good optimism about the affordability of this new technology.

[Jack Dromey (Birmingham, Erdington) (Lab)]

That we move to warm homes fuelled by heat pumps is welcome, but warm words are not enough. What guarantee can the Minister provide that the Government will use taxpayers’ money to invest in heat pumps made in Britain, creating jobs here in Britain and supporting British business?

[Greg Hands]

Part of this announcement is of taxpayers’ money exactly for this sector. My understanding is that the UK is a real leader in heat pump technology, but if the hon. Gentleman wants me to commit to us becoming a sort of protectionist nirvana for the future of the UK in the sector—absolutely not. We need to ensure that we are an open market; we need to be exporting our technology. Earlier, a lot of my colleagues asked about export opportunities. It is difficult to have export opportunities if we are closing down imports at the same time. Yes, there is key British technology in the sector. We need to ensure that it is affordable for consumers, and that we take advantage of export opportunities for a lot of that key technology.

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

I expected to hear more in the Minister’s statement about partnership with local government. Local authorities up and down the country are trying to innovate and to pilot schemes to decarbonise homes. My own local authority is investigating the possibility of using green open space to have a district ground source heat pump scheme that would engage with private homes in the area; that is engaging with the private sector as well. Without local government, the Minister’s strategy is not going to work, so what is he going to do further to engage local government?

[Greg Hands]

I welcome the hon. Gentleman’s approach. As I said earlier, this strategy is going to need all of us—central Government, our key city and regional Mayors, the devolved Administrations, businesses, local government and others—to work together to get to net zero. I would be delighted to work with the local government sector. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for local government—the Secretary of State for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities—takes a keen interest in this agenda. I am sure that we will work together to ensure that local government plays an important and crucial role in getting to net zero by 2050.

[Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Minister knows that steel made in Wales and the rest of the UK is half as carbon-intensive as undercutting steel from China. Moreover, our carbon footprint, although low on production at 4.8 tonnes per person is a much bigger 8 tonnes on consumption, because we now subcontract a lot of our manufacturing. Will he look carefully at pursuing a carbon border tax, so that we can play on an even playing field, support local jobs in manufacturing and steel, and help to tackle climate change? Will he announce and suggest that at COP26?

[Greg Hands]

The chair designate of COP26 says that carbon border adjustment mechanisms will not be part of the discussions at COP26, but the UK is closely watching that debate. We are looking at the European Union proposals. Of course, we need to ensure that they are World Trade Organisation-compatible and that they do not discriminate against the developing world, particularly much less developed countries. The CBAMs debate is very much alive and we continue to study it very closely indeed.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the Minister for his announcement and his clear commitment to all regions of the United Kingdom, particularly to Northern Ireland. I welcome the strategy and the decision to end the sale of gas boilers by 2035. What incentives can the Minister offer to builders currently developing to make those changes to new builds now, not to wait until 2034 to change that skills base and ability? Is upskilling part of the Government’s agenda?

[Greg Hands]

Upskilling is very much part of the Government’s agenda. On how the heat pump ready programme will be operating, if I understand it correctly, that is a Northern Ireland-only scheme, but we have seen that scheme in operation and it will help to inform the England and Wales scheme. The scheme will also support the Government’s target of 600,000 installations a year by 2028, which also covers Northern Ireland.

[Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)]

In 2015, the UK Government pulled the plug on £1 billion of carbon capture and storage investment in Peterhead. Today, they have repeated that same mistake—a betrayal of the north-east of Scotland—by pulling the rug out from underneath the Acorn Project. The Minister knows that Scotland cannot meet its net zero ambitions without carbon capture and underground storage, so why is he shafting Scotland?

[Greg Hands]

The hon. Gentleman might have been here at the beginning of the statement; if a Member wishes to participate in a statement, it is common practice to be here at the start. As he was not here at the beginning, he missed me explaining the basis behind the decision. Government policy has always been clear that there would be two industrial clusters by the mid-2020s, but four by 2030 at the latest. We have announced the Acorn cluster as a reserve. I praise the scheme for meeting the eligibility criteria. It also performed to a good standard against the evaluation criteria. We remain absolutely committed to track 2.

[Stephen Flynn]

Shame on you.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I thank the Minister for his statement and for answering questions for over an hour. I do not like the words that you used, Mr Flynn. We have talked about a kinder, gentler politics, and that certainly was not it.

Point of Order

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Commons Chamber

13:49

[Matthew Pennycook (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. For many months, we have awaited three key climate strategies that were promised before COP26: the heat and building strategy, the net zero strategy, and the final Treasury net zero review. The statement that has just concluded covered two of those strategies but did not, in any way, touch on the third—namely, the Treasury net zero review. Have you had an explanation as to why the Treasury net zero review was not covered in the statement and whether there will be a statement from a Treasury Minister in due course so that Members can properly interrogate and ask questions about it?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I thank you, Mr Pennycook, for your point of order and for giving forward notice of it. Mr Speaker frequently and firmly asserts the duty of the Government to make important announcements to this House first. I am not aware of the announcement that the hon. Gentleman refers to, but know that those on the Treasury Bench will have heard that and will, I am sure, take it forward.

Bills Presented

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Commons Chamber

Company Transparency (Carbon in Supply Chains) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)

Karen Bradley presented a Bill to require companies to prepare an annual statement on carbon in their supply chains; and for connected purposes.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 3 December, and to be printed (Bill 169).

Devolution (Employment) (Scotland)

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)

Gavin Newlands presented a Bill to amend the Scotland Act 1998 to grant legislative competence for employment matters to the Scottish Parliament.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 22 October, and to be printed (Bill 170).

Bereavement Leave and Pay (Stillborn and Miscarried Babies)

1st reading
Tuesday 19th October 2021 Commons Chamber

Motion for leave to bring in a Bill (Standing Order No. 23)

13:51

[Sarah Owen (Luton North) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That leave be given to bring in a Bill to extend entitlement to parental bereavement leave and pay to parents of babies miscarried or stillborn during early pregnancy; and for connected purposes.

Grief hits everyone differently but one thing that is universal is that it takes time. That is why people are entitled to bereavement leave when losing a loved one. I was not prepared for the grief of miscarrying. I was even more shocked that I was not entitled to bereavement leave but legally had to take sick leave instead. But what I was feeling was not a sickness. It was physically painful, yes, but my overriding feeling was grief: a deep sense of loss of hopes, dreams and mourning a lost future with babies I never got to hold.

This happens to about one in four pregnancies. The Miscarriage Association reports that about a quarter of a million people each year in the UK miscarry. This issue impacts families who have got in touch with me in Luton North, but in every constituency in the country there will be families who face this grief everywhere. I cannot believe that in 2021 people are being forced to take sick leave to process their grief.

I knew I was miscarrying during my first pregnancy. It happened at work. I was due to speak for the first time to the executive of my trade union, GMB. Protecting and improving workers’ rights is something I have actively campaigned on for most of my adult life, so it was odd that when it came to my own rights at work I was less vocal than normal, but grief can rob people of their normal selves. Rather than speaking out and saying what I knew was happening to my body at that time—the tell-tale tummy cramps and spotting—I stayed where I was, googled nearby ultrasound clinics under the table, and booked myself in for scan in my lunch break. I sat there devastated, knowing that there was nothing I could do to stop a miscarriage this early in pregnancy, at the same time just not wanting to believe that it was happening. I focused on my report and answered the questions thrown at me. To be honest, I knocked it out of the park; no one would have known that I was having a miscarriage at the same time. Then I walked back to the office in pain and alone, going back to my desk and waiting until I could have the scan that confirmed my fears and my pain.

Important initiatives like Baby Loss Awareness Week and improved coverage in the media, with celebrities and my hon. Friends the Members for Sheffield, Hallam (Olivia Blake) and for Streatham (Bell Ribeiro-Addy) bravely sharing their personal experiences, as well as the hon. Member for Lanark and Hamilton East (Angela Crawley) and the right hon. Member for South West Surrey (Jeremy Hunt) in his work on the all-party parliamentary group on baby loss, are changing the conversation. I have also been proud to get to know the hon. Member for Truro and Falmouth (Cherilyn Mackrory) through her own experience and her work co-chairing the APPG. They are all helping to break the stigma of miscarriage and baby loss, but the law is too slow to change.

Although my previous very lovely line manager gave me time and space to recover, I was still sending in sick notes from my GP. Yet a few days after the physical pain had subsided, I was not ill any more; I was grieving, with all the classic signs: I could not eat, I could not sleep. I really did not hold much hope that life would ever get brighter. It took time and the support of good people around me. Having to explain to my male boss why the first period following miscarriage triggered grief during a public disagreement was not ideal, but on the whole my previous employer and wonderful colleagues supported me throughout. I cannot imagine going through all that without a supportive employer, yet thousands of women in this country do, and that is why the law must change.

I believe that public opinion is with us. In every baby loss awareness debate in this place there is a great deal of agreement across the political divide, and the call to extend bereavement leave to people who miscarry in early pregnancy has cross-party support, including from a former Health Secretary. I am grateful to the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) for adding his support to this Bill, and to the charity Sands for its support too, but I know that Bills like this do not get far without Government support, and I would be grateful if Ministers met me on this. We have been waiting for an employment Bill since 2019. My proposal today would be an ideal strengthening of people’s rights at work in any future employment Bill. We should not have to wait any longer to make this change.

There are companies and employers proving that this is possible, with some offering bereavement leave to their staff already. I would like to thank the school where my partner was teaching at the time, which was incredibly supportive during our miscarriages in allowing him the time to grieve as well. Small business owners have got in touch to say that they have amended their compassionate leave policies following personal experiences with miscarriage. It is also reported that Reddit in the US offers up to eight and a half weeks’ bereavement leave following miscarriage. But it is something that all people who experience miscarriage should be entitled to, not just some. Although it was one of the first and is rightly celebrated, bereavement leave for miscarriage in New Zealand is just three days. We have seen over there the change that a Labour Government, and Governments led by women, can make to people’s lives, but, with respect to our friends in New Zealand, I believe we can do better in this country and go further for the parents who experience miscarriage.

The first time, it took me two days to completely miscarry. The second time, I carried the little ones around with me for nearly a week until I went under general anaesthetic to have them removed. I am so grateful to the team at St Mary’s day surgery, which included my wonderful and super-talented friend Helgi Johansson, for taking care of me that day. During the time I found out the twins had no heartbeats and was going to hospital, I tried to work. It really was not the smartest thing I have ever done, but I pushed on until a heavily pregnant woman joined a meeting. Again, I did the meeting, and I was staring at her lovely round belly knowing that mine would not grow like that that time. I am ever grateful that one day it did, and we are so lucky to have our wonderful rainbow baby. But no woman should feel compelled to stay at home or stay in work; they should have the space and choice about how to grieve.

This small change will not stop people miscarrying, but it could make the world of difference. These are just a handful of the messages from people saying what a difference it could make. One woman wrote to me to say: “I was asked to go back to work the day after my miscarriage, by a well-known global corporation—I took some sick days but went back after three days. It was horrendous.” Another wrote: “With every miscarriage, my employer expected me to carry on as if nothing had happened, when what I really needed was to grieve and heal.” Another woman said: “This will make immeasurable difference to many women like me, especially for women in un-unionised workplaces.” She went on to say: “We aren’t sick, it needs to be recognised differently.” For me, that last point really rings true, because being forced to take sick leave wrongly reinforces a woman’s feeling that her body has failed her or that it is somehow her fault. For thousands of women, sadly, miscarriage is part of pregnancy, just as death is part of life.

The law urgently needs to catch up with society to allow everyone who is the one in four the time to grieve and heal. Miscarriage can be physically painful, but it is not an illness, and it is time the law stopped treating it like one. That is why I commend this Bill to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Ordered,

That Sarah Owen, Jeremy Hunt, Olivia Blake, Bell Ribeiro- Addy, Jim Shannon, Taiwo Owatemi and Alex Davies-Jones present the Bill.

Sarah Owen accordingly presented the Bill.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 25 February 2022, and to be printed (Bill 171).

Business of the House (Today)

Ordered,

That, at this day’s sitting,

(1) the Speaker shall put the Questions necessary to dispose of proceedings on the motion in the name of Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg relating to the Independent Expert Panel recommendations for sanctions and the Recall of MPs Act 2015 not later than one hour after the commencement of proceedings on the motion for this Order; such Questions shall include the Questions on any Amendments selected by the Speaker which may then be moved; and the business may be proceeded with, though opposed, after the moment of interruption;

(2) notwithstanding paragraph (2)(c)(i) of Standing Order No. 14 (Arrangement of public business), the business in the name of the Leader of the Opposition may be entered upon at any hour and may be proceeded with, though opposed, for three hours; and proceedings shall then lapse if not previously disposed of;

and, in respect of both items of business, Standing Order No. 41A (Deferred divisions) shall not apply.—(Mr Jacob Rees- Mogg.)

Independent Expert Panel Recommendations for Sanctions and the Recall of MPs Act 2015

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I should inform the House that Mr Speaker has selected the amendment in the name of the Leader of the Opposition.

14:01

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Jacob Rees- Mogg)]

I beg to move,

That—

(1) the following Standing Order be made:

“IEP recommendations for sanctions and the Recall of MPs Act 2015

(1) The Chair of the IEP shall send to the Chair and Members of the Committee on Standards and to the Clerk of that Committee any report from a sub-panel of the IEP which he has referred to the Clerk of the House under subparagraph (5)(d) of Standing Order No. 150A (Independent Expert Panel) and which contains a determination for a sanction that would, if made by the Committee on Standards, engage the provisions of the Recall of MPs Act 2015.

(2) Where a report has been sent to the Committee on Standards in accordance with paragraph (1) of this Order the Committee of Standards shall make a report to the House in relation to the Member named in that report, setting out a recommendation for a suspension equal to that recommended by the sub-panel to run concurrently with any sanction imposed as a result of the sub-panel’s determination.

(3) Reports under paragraph (2) must be made no later than on the third sitting day after the report of the IEP sub-panel is sent to members of the Committee on Standards, save that the day on which the report is sent shall not be counted in calculating this period.

(4) If the Committee on Standards is unable to meet within 3 sitting days, the Chair shall, if satisfied that the report from the IEP sub-panel has been sent to all members of the Committee, make the report to the House from the Committee required under paragraph (2).”

(2) The following amendments to Standing Orders be made:

(a) In Standing Order No. 149 (Committee on Standards), paragraph (1), at the end insert

“(c) in accordance with Standing Order No. (IEP recommendations for sanctions and the Recall of MPs Act 2015) to report to the House recommendations for sanctions to run concurrently with sanctions determined by a sub-panel of the IEP and implemented by the House.”

(b) In Standing Order No. 150D (Motions consequent on the ICGS), paragraph (1), at the end, insert

“( ) a motion under paragraph (1) of this Order includes a motion to implement a sanction recommended by the Committee on Standards under Standing Order No. (IEP recommendations for sanctions and the Recall of MPs Act 2015), or a motion to implement both such a sanction and a sanction determined by a sub-panel of the IEP”.

Being a Member of Parliament is an honour and a privilege. The rights conferred on those who hold office as Members exist to help us perform our constitutional role of representing our constituents and their interests as fully as we can. Yesterday, we reflected on a Member of Parliament whose devotion to his constituents served as an example to us all. Today, with this motion, the House is asked to consider what happens when those elected to this House let down their constituents.

As Members of this House, we have all a shared duty to ensure that Parliament is a safe and positive place of work. In recent years, we have taken important steps to put in place suitable support and protection for all members of our community. Progress is being made in achieving culture change in Westminster. The elements of the independent complaints and grievance scheme—including the behaviour code and the independent expert panel—put in place so far have begun to make a real difference.

As Members will know, when the independent expert panel was established it was felt that recall would be an unsuitable consequence in ICGS cases. This was a decision that the House took in establishing the IEP in June 2020 after taking into account the views of the ICGS staff working group. It was the working group’s considered view that the opening of a recall petition could have implications both for the complainant’s confidentiality and the willingness of future complainants to come forward. It was also felt that, should the 10% signing threshold be reached and a by-election campaign be subsequently triggered, the risk to the complainant’s confidentiality would become greater.

It has been nearly 12 months since the independent expert panel was appointed in November 2020, and I thank Sir Stephen Irwin and the panel for their work. The panel has had to consider very serious ICGS cases. Since the panel commenced its work, this House has had cause to consider once more the discrepancy between ICGS and non-ICGS cases when it comes to their interplay with the Recall of MPs Act 2015.

Further to a period of engagement with the independent expert panel, staff groups and the trade unions, the House of Commons Commission has come to the view that it is right to amend the Standing Orders to enable recall to be triggered as a result of an IEP recommended sanction of suspension. I would like to thank the Clerk of the Journals for identifying a simple and clear mechanism by which that could be achieved. I note that Sir Stephen Irwin, chairman of the IEP, while ultimately wanting the matter settled by legislation, has urged the Government to make this change as soon as possible.

The purpose of the motion before us today is therefore to amend the Standing Orders to ensure that a sanction of suspension of a qualifying duration, made following a report from the independent expert panel, will lead to a recall petition. The Recall of MPs Act 2015 provides three conditions for a recall petition process, one of which is a suspension of a period of at least 10 sitting days or 14 calendar days. For a recall to be initiated under the Act, the sanction must be applied on the recommendation of the Select Committee on Standards, or another Committee of the House of Commons concerned with standards of conduct. The independent expert panel is not a Committee of the House of Commons and therefore a sanction that might otherwise qualify can never result in a recall petition.

If today’s motion were agreed, in future should a Member be suspended for a period of at least 10 sitting days or 14 calendar days, whether on the recommendation of the independent expert panel, the Standards Committee or another Committee of the House concerned with standards, the Recall Act would be engaged.

Turning to the amendment in the name of the Leader of the Opposition, the chairman of the IEP has said he is “seriously concerned” by the proposal to apply these Standing Order changes retrospectively. I will go through his concerns in turn, as I think it is important for the House to understand them and take them into account, given the panel’s independence.

First, the amendment would offend

“against the principle that a sanction properly determined by the IEP should be final”.

Secondly, it would offend

“against the principle that there should be no retrospective imposition of a sanction which was not available at the time when a given case was determined by the IEP.”

It is also worth noting that expulsion was an option available to the IEP at the time, which it chose not to take. Thirdly, and perhaps most importantly, it

“impinges on the independence of the IEP, since, if implemented, it would amount to a political decision affecting the sanction in an individual case.”

In establishing the independent expert panel, the House recognised the importance of ensuring the panel’s independence. The existing arrangements were put in place to protect the determinations of the panel from debate before the vote on a resolution. The amendment before us today in effect risks drawing the House into a debate on the substance of the IEP’s May 2021 report and whether recall is an appropriate sanction in this case. It is wrong in principle, as Sir Stephen explains in letters placed in the Library by the IEP, for a properly determined sanction to be altered by any other route than a proper appeal or to be made retrospective, but it would also set a very problematic precedent. It would mean the House was taking a decision directly affecting a sanction determined by the IEP. The effect here would be to increase a sanction, but once a change had been permitted, what is to prevent the House making a change so as to reduce a sanction properly determined by the IEP?

This debate is not and should not be about the merits of an individual case. While I do not dispute that in severe cases it is right that a sanction of qualifying duration should lead to a recall petition, it is not right that the House re-considers the effect of a suspension that was previously agreed forthwith and accordingly served. Moreover, we must keep the experience of the complainant in mind. To change how the IEP works now risks reducing confidence in the process. Such a change would not be a fair one, as the complainant arguably engaged with the process on the understanding that, at the time, it would not result in a recall petition being opened.

I therefore urge the shadow Leader of the House to withdraw the amendment, which would undermine the independence of the panel. To apply these measures retrospectively could violate the independence of the panel—an independence that is at the core of why the panel was created in the first place on the recommendation of Dame Laura Cox, and which the House has agreed is essential for achieving culture change in Westminster.

None of us doubts the Opposition’s wish to play their part in making Parliament a safe and supportive place of work. With this motion, we are asked to consider how best to achieve that, so it is in a spirit of co-operation, not confrontation, that I ask the shadow Leader of the House to withdraw her amendment. What we need to see is parity in the effect of sanctions that will, irrespective of their origins, lead to a recall petition. As Sir Stephen has made clear, that will build confidence in the system, and on that basis I commend this motion to the House.

14:09

[Thangam Debbonaire (Bristol West) (Lab)]

I beg to move amendment (a), at end insert:

“(3) The provisions of Standing Order (IEP recommendations for sanctions and the Recall of MPs Act) shall be applied in respect of any report from the Independent Expert Panel published before this Order is agreed which contains a determination for a sanction that, if it had been made by the Committee on Standards, would have engaged the provisions of the Recall of MPs Act 2015, save that, notwithstanding the provisions of that Standing Order, the sanction recommended by the Committee on Standards in such a case, shall be limited to 14 days and the provisions of Standing Order No. 45A shall not apply in respect of any suspension imposed in consequence of such a recommendation, and the provisions of the Standing Order shall be interpreted as if the day this Order is agreed had been the day on which the Report was sent to Members of the Committee on Standards in accordance with that Standing Order.”.

I rise to move the amendment in my name and in the name of my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. We are here to debate, and hopefully fix, first, a loophole and secondly, a discrepancy between sanctions from the House of Commons Standards Committee and the independent expert panel of the independent complaints and grievance scheme. As it stands, as the Leader of the House said, if a Member is suspended from Parliament for 10 or more sitting days by the Standards Committee for a breach of the code of conduct, such as regarding expenses or for the misuse of resources, their constituents could, if they chose, cause a by-election under the Recall of MPs Act 2015. Currently, however, when the IEP recommends suspension for sexual misconduct or bullying under the ICGS, they cannot.

The motion that the Government have tabled, which I fully support, will close that loophole, but there is another discrepancy that my amendment seeks to fix. I have been encouraged by what the Leader of the House has said about the issue in general terms, and I seek to approach it in that way, and by the tone in which he said it. This week, in particular, we have been reminded how fragile and important our democracy is. Yesterday, in this place, we heard the best of our House, and today, we are talking about a topic that is not, but we can show the value of our democracy as we assert Parliament’s will—not through personal attacks, but by taking a stand on standards of behaviour.

When we have democracy, as we do in this country, we—each one of us, equally valid under the law—can choose our representatives, and we can boot them out when we do not want them. We can do that peacefully, without threats or coercion of candidates or voters, but that carries with it responsibilities. Because of the way we have constructed democracy in this country, for it to work well, our citizens—our constituents—need to feel able to hold us to account, to scrutinise, to challenge and to question us on everything that affects them and our country, and to do so safely. As elected representatives, we must therefore set and demonstrate the highest standards of behaviour, so our constituents can do all that. So far, so much agreement between me and the Leader of the House about prospective rule change.

The reason that I am putting forward my amendment, which creates a retrospective rule change, is that I cannot think of many jobs of public service where someone found to have carried out sexual misconduct would not face losing that job. In the one relevant case in the past year, however, that has not happened. I have notified the Member concerned that I will be mentioning their case. Let us consider the circumstances that might justify a public servant not losing their job in that situation: if that person demonstrates full and open recognition of the impact of their abusive behaviour on their victims and potentially on members of the public; if they demonstrate and acknowledge the need to change; if they show willingness to take part in some behaviour change programme or voluntary formal scrutiny of some sort; or—this is my preference—if they recognise the dishonour that they have brought to public service and the likelihood of people feeling potentially at risk if they work with or seek help from them, and resign. In the most recent case, in fact the only case to which we are referring, none of those things has happened, so my amendment seeks to make the provision of the motion retrospective in application so it will apply to that case.

I understand and I have listened very carefully to the misgivings and anxieties of colleagues I respect and hold dear, and to others outside this place, about retrospective rule changes. I would rather not table an amendment with retrospective force; it is far from ideal, although it is possible for Parliament to do it. If the Member concerned had taken any of the above options—preferably the last, but any would have been something—perhaps we would not need to do so. But unfortunately the Member did not; so we do. It cannot be right that, simply because of the timing of a complaint, the victims and constituents of one Member, who has been found to have carried out sexual misconduct by the IEP and who has lost an appeal, will not have the opportunity to trigger a recall petition and a by-election should they—not us—choose to do so, when none of the other options appears to have been taken up.

The Government’s strategy on “Tackling violence against women and girls”, published in July, states correctly:

“We are looking carefully at where there may be gaps in existing law”.

That is good, but we must also close the existing gaps in Parliament to tackle a culture of bullying and harassment that has been all too pervasive. The Home Secretary was right to say that of the Metropolitan police, and we need to set that example in Parliament too. We need to think of the staff, future staff and constituents of any Member found to have sexually harassed others. We have made great steps in this place to change the culture, but there is no room for complacency and we must lead by example.

This amendment is one step we could take to go some way to improving the culture around harassment and bullying and to send a clear message that such behaviour will never be tolerated inside this House or by us outside it. I know that all Members of the House share the aim to rid Parliament and our society of the toxicity that leads to cultures of sexual harassment. Although it is not something I wanted to do, the amendment that I have put forward today is a workable way to begin to tackle some of that in this place and set that example.

I seek to test the view of the House, so I will press the amendment to a vote. Parliament can pass retrospective rule change, and it has before, so it is possible. Considering that we are in the circumstances I have outlined, I would like us to lead by example.

[Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

I do not want to get involved in the substance of the case, but as a general principle, does the hon. Lady think there is something in the notion of natural law that people should be punished according to the law at the time they commit the offence?

[Thangam Debbonaire]

As I said, I completely understand the reservations that Members have—I have them myself. Retrospective rule change is an extremely unfortunate situation to be put in. As I outlined, other options were open, but unfortunately they were not taken up, so we find ourselves in a position where we will have a prospective rule change and there will be someone among us whom the independent expert panel has found to have carried out behaviour that would otherwise have triggered a recall. I respect and value the different views of the right hon. Gentleman and of other hon. Members, nevertheless I seek to test the opinion of the House by putting the amendment to a vote.

14:15

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

I am grateful to the Leader of the House for bringing the motion to the House as he said he would. He is absolutely right that it closes the loophole that was recognised and identified as we were putting the measure through the House.

I have been on the ICGS since its inception—I have been on all the working groups and bodies that have been assembled to get to where we are in producing the report and having the policy in place in the House—and I would say that what we have achieved in the past few years has transformed the culture and behaviour around the House. It has been a thoroughly positive initiative and piece of work. I thank everybody who has been involved in the past few years, because we are in a much better place in this House than we were a few years ago when some of these issues were identified.

The Leader of the House and the shadow Leader of the House are entirely right to talk about the experience of the last few days, its impact on all of us and how the House is being perceived, because there is goodwill towards the House. People are looking at Members of Parliament and what we do and observing how we conduct our business. For the first time in a long time, we are seeing a bit of respect and a grudging admiration for the type of thing that we get involved in and the work we do on behalf of our constituents.

It is right, therefore, that we start to pay attention to some of the outstanding issues in the House that we still have to deal with, such as the essence and culture; how we perceive the behaviour of others; and how some of those behaviours, when they go so badly wrong, as they have in a couple of circumstances, are addressed and rectified. In the ICGS, in the past few years, we have made good progress to address those things, but there are still issues and difficulties that we need to look at.

The SNP will support Labour’s amendment, because no one should get away with something because of a technicality or a loophole, or because a process was not in place at the time of the offence. There is almost a sense that somebody has got away with it and that the whole idea of justice has not been served, particularly for those who were so badly compromised by the actions of one of our colleagues in the House. It is absolutely right that that is addressed and put right.

The Leader of the House is right to identify the concerns of Sir Stephen Irwin, to whom I pay tribute for his work on the IEP. The coming together of the IEP in the last year has been a fantastic innovation. It has been the cherry on the cake for the ICGS; it has allowed us to go into these issues and cases with a depth and thoroughness that would not otherwise have been available. I thank Sir Stephen for the work he has done and for the way that the independent expert panel has made such a difference to the workings and arrangements of the ICGS.

I was at the Commission meeting when Sir Stephen detailed his concerns and difficulties with some of the proposals, but I think the shadow Leader of the House has designed a means for the amendment to be made constructively and within the spirit of what has been achieved. If there is a willingness to try to ensure that justice has been served for the victims in this particular case, we should do that, regardless of the difficulties we may encounter on the way. If it is the right thing to do, the House should do it. We will support the amendment today.

As we go forward, it is important that the House starts to look beyond this at some of the other issues. Something that has not been addressed yet, and which we will have to look at in future, is the concern that Members of Parliament under investigation for the most serious of transgressions against members of staff in this House are still able to access the parliamentary estate and go about their business as normal.

[Sir Edward Leigh]

What about the principle that somebody is innocent until proved guilty?

[Pete Wishart]

That is a very good principle, and it is one that underpins nearly everything we do in this House and throughout the legal systems of all jurisdictions across the United Kingdom, but it does not apply in all the other workplaces throughout the United Kingdom. If somebody has been identified as a transgressor in the most serious way, that person will not have access to their workplace as we are suggesting they still can in this House. I have discussed this with the staff unions in the House and with several members of staff, and I know there is still huge concern. They are looking to bring the matter forward for the House to take a view on and try to resolve to their satisfaction. We are going to have to confront this issue.

The motion is a good one, which we can all support, and I thank the Leader of the House for bringing it forward. It deals with the loophole, and we now have recourse to recall in a way that we never thought we would be able to secure, even a year ago. There is no good reason not to apply the provision retrospectively, if there is a willingness in the House for the issue to be addressed, and to be addressed in the way outlined in the amendment that the shadow Leader of the House has put forward, which I will support. I thank everybody once again for the support we have had throughout the creation of the scheme. I acknowledge the progress that we have made, but there is still more work to be done.

14:21

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

I agree with much that the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) has said, but I am a little more sceptical about whether the changed attitude towards the House and its Members will remain for much longer than another 24 hours. I have been here before, and if we look at some of the online comments some of us have received over the last 72 hours, we see that they have been even more aggressively nasty than the ones last week.

I thank Sir Stephen Irwin, who I think has done a magnificent job ever since he started with the independent expert panel, and all the other members of the panel. However, it is also worth remembering that the person who works most closely with them is the Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards. I think we should pay tribute to the magnificent work that she has done in this field as well. These are often complex, difficult and highly emotionally charged cases to deal with, and coming to a secure idea of what has actually happened in some instances is not simple.

One danger with adopting the policy that the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire suggested, in an environment where each parliamentary office has a Member of Parliament and perhaps three or four members of staff, is that it might reveal the name of the complainant, which breaches confidentiality. That needs to be addressed carefully.

When the 2015 Act was introduced, it was absolutely clear that the House intended the process to apply to all the cases that might possibly be brought, because they could then be brought only to the Committee on Standards and Privileges, hence the way in which the legislation was drafted. Any case of bullying or sexual harassment that might have come to the Committee on Standards and Privileges, if we proposed a sanction of 14 or more days or 10 sitting days, would have invoked the recall petition process. When we created the independent expert panel, as the Leader of the House was absolutely right to say, many of the trade unions were opposed to the idea of making that process apply. I have always thought that they were wrong, for the very simple reason that we have ended up looking as if we take offences about registration of interests, paid advocacy and things like that more seriously than bullying and sexual harassment.

Bullying and sexual harassment cases could not possibly lead to somebody leaving the House through the recall petition process as it is presently constituted. However, the independent expert panel could, if it wanted to, recommend the expulsion of a Member. I do not know what the case would have to be to lead to that—that is a matter for it—but I will come on to that later in relation to the amendment from my hon. Friend the shadow Leader of the House. I just think it is wrong that we should have what seems to be a higher bar for sexual harassment and bullying cases than for other cases that come before the Committee.

As Sir Stephen has said and as the Leader of the House intimated, it would be better to correct that by legislation, and I have had this conversation with the right hon. Gentleman. Leaders of the House always say that there is never any time to do anything by legislation and that it is absolutely impossible, until suddenly they find that it is absolutely possible, it is absolutely necessary and it must all be done in one day. That is the kind of thing that happens to Leaders of the House: somebody who lives on a street a little bit further up Whitehall somehow manages to tug the ear of Leaders of the House, and they find time that they never had before.

The slight danger of doing it this way is that something has to go from the independent expert panel to the Committee on Standards. I know that the Committee shall produce a report and it must be equal to the report that has come from the independent expert panel; none the less, there is a danger that the process is a bit more cumbersome and it undermines an element of the independence of the independent expert panel. We might end up having a debate in the Standards Committee, and I think that would be entirely inappropriate. If the House cannot have a debate on it, why on earth should the Standards Committee be able to have a debate on it? I can assure the House, having discussed this with the Standards Committee, that we will not debate that. However, I am the Chair today, and who knows who might be the Chair in the future or who might be the members of the Committee in the future? So I would still prefer us, at some point, to have proper legislation to clear this up, rather than simply relying on the Standing Orders and the good will of the Committee on Standards.

[Pete Wishart]

The hon. Gentleman is a very effective Chair, and I think we all respect and admire the work he is doing. On the legislation versus Standing Orders issue that he raises, he is right that Sir Stephen did indeed want legislation, which I would support, but the concern was that such legislation might be subject to legal challenge, and I do not know exactly where that leaves us. I am interested in his view if we were to go down the legislative route. What would be his concerns if legal challenges were to emerge because of that?

[Chris Bryant]

We have not been advised of any problems with legal challenge. I still think legislation would be better. Legislation always—or nearly always—puts things completely beyond doubt, whereas Standing Orders changes do not always put things completely beyond doubt. However, it would then be a proceeding in Parliament and, as we all know, article IX of the Bill of Rights says that no proceeding in Parliament should be

“impeached or questioned in any Court”

of law or any other place.—[Interruption.] I have got it right, have I not? I think we would be able to rely on that very solidly, and that must appeal to the Leader of the House because it goes back to the 17th century. On the question of the independence of the IEP, we are very keen in the Standards Committee that we will do everything to maintain that independence, and it will not be questioned or impeached by us in any shape or form.

I note that the changes to the Standing Orders say that the Chair of the Committee can do something if the Committee has not managed

“to meet within 3 sitting days”.

I think this would happen quite often, because it is quite difficult to ensure that the Standards Committee is going to meet within three days, especially because the independent members come from some distance and we would not necessarily be able to gather them together, and we can be quorate only if we have three lay members and three members who are Members of the House.

I gently suggest to the Leader of the House that it might be nice, at some point, to have a Standing Order that says that all motions from the independent expert panel or from the Committee on Standards will be before the House within three sitting days as well, but I know what he is going to say. He will say that it is all very difficult, and that sometimes it is impossible to find time and sometimes it is possible to find time—

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

indicated assent.

[Chris Bryant]

The Leader of the House takes my point.

On retrospectivity, I am afraid I am not going to vote for the amendment in the names of the Leader of the Opposition and shadow Leader of the House; I will be voting against it. The independent expert panel could have decided in the case we are referring to that the Member should be expelled from the House; I do not make a judgment as to whether that would be the right thing to do, but it could have done that. It knew perfectly well that these were the rules and that it was unable to allow the invoking of the Recall of MPs Act 2015. That is why it is unfair to introduce an element of retrospectivity.

It does, however, present a very difficult example for the House that somebody who has been found to have behaved so inappropriately that in any other set of circumstances it would have been invoking the Recall of MPs Act chooses to continue in the House. The Leader of the House himself has said that he thinks the hon. Member should resign, and that is my view as well. The situation is very difficult for constituents in that constituency and for other Members and staff around the House, and I wish it could be other than it is, but that does not mean we can surrender the fundamental principles we have always had.

My main point, however, is that I fully support the closing of the loophole, and I wish this had done before the IEP came to its decision on the case hon. Members have referred to. I only wish that attitudes across the House were changing more rapidly, and we still have a considerable job of work to do on that, but I am assured that many members of staff both of Members and of the House feel reassured by the independence of the IEP process, and I would encourage anybody who ever feels that they have been bullied or have been subject to sexual harassment in their line of work here to present themselves, because they will have a fair hearing from the system.

14:31

[Jess Phillips (Birmingham, Yardley) (Lab)]

I wish to say from the get-go that had the case that has been discussed involved a Labour Member I would say exactly the same thing as I am about to say.

On the substantive motion, I echo the words of many about the progress that has been made on closing the loophole but only wish, as my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) said, that it had been made sooner, because we find ourselves in a difficult position today. I very much hope we do not end up voting on party political lines, however. We cannot be whipped on these issues, and I am sure that standard has been maintained across the House. It will be a shame if we vote on party political lines on these issues rather think about the consequences of for and against. I will be voting for the amendment on retrospectivity, and many of my constituents—[Interruption.] Does the hon. Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant) have something to say?

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

I said to the hon. Lady—not sufficiently sotto voce, apparently—“No doubt you’ll be voting on party political lines for the Labour amendment?”

[Jess Phillips]

Absolutely not. We have just heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda, who is highly respected on this issue, that that will not be the case, and I have not been whipped to vote for the amendment, nor has any other Labour Member. So I would welcome my hon. Friend from Lichfield—we can be friends; his home is slightly north of mine—listening to what I am about to say and to what others have said and making a decision based on that.

I heard what the Leader of the House said about making this retrospective being bad for the people who come forward, and I take it in good faith that he says that with all meaning, but I have spoken to almost every single complainant in every single case in this House from the Conservative party, the Labour party—the Greens have got off lightly in this House; I have never had a complaint against the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas)—the Scottish National party and the Liberal Democrats, and I have never heard that echoed by any of them. In fact the exact opposite is the case: there is the appalling feeling among those who have come forward that people just get away with it. I have read through every single word of any report released by the ICGS; it is a brilliant panel whose members are learned, capable, thoughtful and absolutely without question fair, but anyone who thinks they would send one of their most vulnerable constituents into a surgery in Delyn tonight has not read the report.

In the last few weeks I have repeatedly had to meet with one of my constituents, a 19-year-old girl who is going through a serious rape trial, and she needs me to tell her it is going to be okay; she needs me to say, “I’ll call you next week.” I hope no one in this House would think it acceptable for her to go and sit in front of a Member of Parliament who has been found, when a member of their staff sent them a text message to say they were struggling with mental distress, to have asked them if they wanted “fun times”.

It is unacceptable that we do not take a safeguarding role. There is nothing in any piece of legislation, whether perfect or not—and much of it is not—that allows me to safeguard that 19-year-old rape victim in north Wales. That is the fundamental point here, and I agree that the amendment is not perfect—although my constituents who pay the bedroom tax will be delighted to hear that people do not think retrospective legislation should apply to them.

[Michael Fabricant]

I am listening to my hon. Friend with great interest, but it is a little unfair to start drawing a comparison with rape, because whatever we might think of the individual concerned no one has accused him of rape.

[Jess Phillips]

Nobody made that connection until the hon. Gentleman just stood up. What I said was that it is unacceptable because that person would have nowhere to go. The reality is that someone who is vulnerable is not going to come forward to somebody who has used vulnerabilities for their own ends. I am simply using an example; I could use any example, but that is a case I have been dealing with and I would not be able to say that that person should go to a surgery in Delyn.

I do not necessarily particularly like the retrospective nature of this—actually, I do not mind, because it was a loophole that should never have existed and we are all about to vote to say that it should not have existed, apart from in this instance. I do not believe that many people could stand here and say they would feel the same way if it involved their political party, and the vote today is not a political decision for me. I understand the concerns of the ICGS chairs, but it is not a political complaint that I am making: it is a moral one, and a safeguarding one that is needed to protect our House and our reputations, and to protect our constituents.

As we walk through the Lobby we have to ask ourselves if we are comfortable with how we are voting. Young women work in my offices here—and there are, by the way, people who were expelled because of this case: the two people who felt they could not work here anymore. People get expelled because of sexual harassment in this building all the time, but those people are the staff who can no longer go on because it is just not worth it. Then they cannot get a job with another Member of Parliament because they are told, “I’ll lean on your references”. I have heard that a few times from complainants in this place.

The truth is that the system was never perfect before and it still will not be perfect. As we go through and test it, we are going to find other things. Lots of us—I can see the faces of those who have been involved in this debate for the entire time that it has been going on—want to make it so that people feel confident and comfortable coming forward. The complainants, most of whom I have spoken to, do not like that we have left this as unfinished business. They want it finished, and retrospectivity will enable that to happen. For me, it is nothing to do with politics; it is to do with what is the right thing to do—what we would want for our children working anywhere, and what we would want for our constituents.

14:41

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

With the leave of the House, I will respond to the debate. I thank all those who participated in it. I am grateful to the shadow Leader of the House, the hon. Member for Bristol West (Thangam Debbonaire), for her support for the main motion, and I am very grateful to the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) not just for his support for the main motion but for the considerable contribution that he has made to ensuring culture change in the Palace of Westminster.

I am in considerable agreement with the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), the Chairman of the Standards Committee. He made the very important point that this is not a loophole, but it was a deliberate decision that was taken because of representations that were made to exclude recall when the independent expert panel was set up. As it happens, I also agree with him that that was a mistake. The arguments against allowing for recall were essentially weak and erroneous. I think that we agreed to them because we wanted to set the panel up in a spirit of consensus and compromise, and to ensure that all the participants were happy, with the knowledge that we could go further in the future.

I turn to the speech by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley (Jess Phillips). I agree with a great deal of what she says. I confess that my first reaction when I heard about this case was that the Member concerned should not remain a Member of this House, and I said that I thought he should resign. However, I listened very carefully to what the chairman of the IEP said and very carefully, actually, to the basic principle of justice that nobody has a punishment inflicted upon him that was not available at the time the offence was committed. That principle does not apply just to this House; it applies throughout our court and legal system, and it has, really, from the earliest times. I think that is an important principle of justice.

What the hon. Lady said in her impassioned plea is so right in so many ways. Actually, when the recall Bill came through, I was of the view that we could always trust our constituents under the widest possible circumstances of recall. I have never felt that we should shy away from what our constituents want. I was very much in support of what my noble Friend Lord Goldsmith of Richmond Park was trying to do. However, Parliament decided otherwise. Parliament decided to introduce a recall Act subject to strict criteria, including going through a Committee of this House, and those criteria were deliberately not used to extend the Act to the independent expert panel.

[Chris Bryant]

Will the Leader of the House give way?

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I will not, actually, on this occasion; I want to complete my thought.

I think so many of us were so desperately depressed when, after all that this House had tried, after the efforts that we made to improve the standards of behaviour, to achieve culture change and to ensure that people working in this palace felt safe and secure and respected, somebody so recently elected, who went on the course about treating people properly—somebody who did all of that and got every message from the Whips, every message from the Government, every message from this House—had broken the rules within a few months. But that was the system that there was; that system provided for a penalty that was imposed; that penalty was imposed by an independent body, and that is justice. One may then change it for the future. The hon. Member for Birmingham, Yardley knows how much I respect her—that is not the normal waffle of politics; I hold her genuinely in the highest regard, and I admire her campaigning spirit—but I am afraid that on this occasion, justice must trump anger.

[Chris Bryant]

The Leader of the House knows that I will vote with him on this matter, but for me the biggest problem is that the Member concerned has shown absolutely no insight into his conduct. That was a point that the independent expert panel made, and it has been absolutely self-evident at every single moment since. That really does pose a problem for all of us. I know that many Members on his own side have said to him, “It would be better for you and for the House if you were to step down.” I very rarely say this, but as a former priest, I would say this to him as well. I think it would be in his own best interests, for him to be able to move on in his own life, if he were to step aside, and that is what I would prefer.

[Mr Rees-Mogg]

I do not think that it is really for me to respond to what the hon. Gentleman has said, but it will be in Hansard tomorrow.

Question put, That the amendment be made.

14:46

Division 84

Ayes: 213

---

Labour: 160
Scottish National Party: 36
Liberal Democrat: 12
Social Democratic & Labour Party: 2
Plaid Cymru: 2
Independent: 1
Alliance: 1
Alba Party: 1

Noes: 297

---

Conservative: 300
Democratic Unionist Party: 3
Labour: 1
Independent: 1

Main Question put and agreed to.

Ordered,

That—

(1) the following Standing Order be made:

“IEP recommendations for sanctions and the Recall of MPs Act 2015

(1) The Chair of the IEP shall send to the Chair and Members of the Committee on Standards and to the Clerk of that Committee any report from a sub-panel of the IEP which he has referred to the Clerk of the House under subparagraph (5)(d) of Standing Order No. 150A (Independent Expert Panel) and which contains a determination for a sanction that would, if made by the Committee on Standards, engage the provisions of the Recall of MPs Act 2015.

(2) Where a report has been sent to the Committee on Standards in accordance with paragraph (1) of this Order the Committee of Standards shall make a report to the House in relation to the Member named in that report, setting out a recommendation for a suspension equal to that recommended by the sub-panel to run concurrently with any sanction imposed as a result of the sub-panel’s determination.

(3) Reports under paragraph (2) must be made no later than on the third sitting day after the report of the IEP sub-panel is sent to members of the Committee on Standards, save that the day on which the report is sent shall not be counted in calculating this period.

(4) If the Committee on Standards is unable to meet within 3 sitting days, the Chair shall, if satisfied that the report from the IEP sub-panel has been sent to all members of the Committee, make the report to the House from the Committee required under paragraph (2).”

(2) The following amendments to Standing Orders be made:

(a) In Standing Order No. 149 (Committee on Standards), paragraph (1), at the end insert

“(c) in accordance with Standing Order No. (IEP recommendations for sanctions and the Recall of MPs Act 2015) to report to the House recommendations for sanctions to run concurrently with sanctions determined by a sub-panel of the IEP and implemented by the House.”

(b) In Standing Order No. 150D (Motions consequent on the ICGS), paragraph (1), at the end, insert

“( ) a motion under paragraph (1) of this Order includes a motion to implement a sanction recommended by the Committee on Standards under Standing Order No. (IEP recommendations for sanctions and the Recall of MPs Act 2015), or a motion to implement both such a sanction and a sanction determined by a sub-panel of the IEP”.

Coronavirus Act 2020 (Review of Temporary Provisions) (No. 3)

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Commons Chamber

15:01

[The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Sajid Javid)]

I beg to move,

That the temporary provisions of the Coronavirus Act 2020 should not yet expire.

Since we set out our road map out of lockdown in February, we have reopened the economy and lifted restrictions in four steps, carefully removing the rules that have governed our daily lives during the pandemic. Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have also emerged from lockdown on similar timetables and life in the UK has returned ever closer to normal.

One of my first actions as Secretary of State was to announce that we would proceed with step 4 of the road map on 19 July and, in doing so, shift the country’s main line of defence from lockdowns to vaccinations. We could do that because our vaccination programme has created a vast wall of defence. We have given nearly 95 million vaccines, with more than eight in 10 of every man, woman and child in the UK over the age of 12 getting at least one jab and some 79% receiving at least two. It is a remarkable achievement and now that our boosters have begun, they are reinforcing that wall of defence still further. The latest estimates show that our vaccines have prevented over 24 million infections, over 260,000 hospitalisations and over 127,000 deaths.

[Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con)]

I very much agree with the Secretary of State about the success of our vaccination programme. Does he have any concerns about whether the third dose for those with a compromised immune system and the booster dose for everyone who has had two doses is going fast enough? Are there steps that the Government can take to speed that up to put us in the strongest possible position ahead of the winter?

[Sajid Javid]

I thank my right hon. Friend for the scrutiny that he has provided of the Coronavirus Act 2020 through the Government and in many other ways over the last few months. It has been very valuable, certainly to me. On his specific question, the third jabs, whether they are for those who are immunocompromised or booster jabs, are critical over the next few months. As of yesterday, we have administered some 3.7 million jabs. It is off to a good start but we need to continue to work hard to increase the uptake. That is exactly what is happening and certainly will be over the next few weeks with a big marketing campaign about to begin as a way of trying to boost that. He is right to raise that issue.

The Coronavirus Act has been instrumental in our response to the pandemic. It has helped to steady the ship in stormy waters. It has protected the NHS in its hour of need by allowing tens of thousands of medical and care staff to register with the NHS temporarily, including nurses, midwives, paramedics, radiographers, social workers and many others; by keeping public services going, including ensuring that our courts and local democracy could function; and by providing a vital lifeline for people and businesses across the country, supporting 11.7 million jobs and providing 1.6 million business loans.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

I thank my right hon. Friend for giving way and apologise to you, Mr Deputy Speaker, because I am taking part in a Westminster Hall debate, but I need to ask this important question. I understand the lockdown measures, but will my right hon. Friend ensure this time, God forbid, if things do get worse, that whatever happens, he will keep the schools open, because we know the damage to mental health, educational attainment, lifelong learning and lifetime chances that school closures have brought to our children?

[Sajid Javid]

During the pandemic, my right hon. Friend has done a fantastic job of drawing everyone’s attention, rightly, to the impact that the measures—the lockdown measures in particular—have had on children, especially those in school. I hope he would agree that the plans that the Government have set out, including our primary plan of relying on vaccinations, treatments—there are ever more treatments, which is fantastic news—testing and surveillance, is the right way to deal with the challenges of the pandemic.

With all the measures that we have taken, it is clear that we are now in a new phase of the pandemic and that we are learning to live with the virus. Throughout this public health crisis, we have always sought for our provisions to be proportionate to the threat that we face. Parliament has rightly been given the opportunity to scrutinise this legislation every six months. We do not wish to keep provisions in place any longer than they are absolutely necessary, especially those that are limiting the freedoms that rightly belong to citizens.

[Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State says that this House has had time to scrutinise the legislation, but 90 minutes every six months to scrutinise the Act really is not enough time for Parliament.

[Sajid Javid]

The hon. Lady is right to point to the importance of scrutiny. Of course, it is not just the time that we have for debate now or the regular time we have had since this Act has been on the statute book. Scrutiny is also provided in other ways: for example, she will know that Select Committees have looked at the Act, with parliamentarians represented and taking evidence. That is just another way to make sure that the Act is getting the scrutiny that it deserves.

[Dr Liam Fox (North Somerset) (Con)]

No one disputes the success that some of these measures have had but there is a strong resentment—which, I have to say, I share—in many quarters about giving any Government extension to powers that are quite as blank as these are. Have the Government considered any other mechanism for allowing extension for a lesser amount of time or are there alternatives by using the Civil Contingencies Act 2004, which many of us feel should have been used from the outset, rather than presenting this gift-wrapped to the devolved parts of the United Kingdom?

[Sajid Javid]

I understand my right hon. Friend’s concerns and, rightly, many people across the House share those concerns. He will know that when the original Bill was brought to Parliament, the Government said, rightly, that any measures would be kept in place only for as long as necessary and that they would have to be proportionate. Even before coming to the House today with the recommendation to expire seven of the non-devolved provisions in the Act, 13 have already expired. He also pointed to alternative ways that some of these measures, if necessary, could be taken, and that is a very valuable suggestion. For example, I believe that in the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill, which is before Parliament now, my colleagues are looking at some of the provisions on courts and keeping the remote working of courts going. So there are possible alternatives and he is right to draw attention to that.

[Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con)]

The Secretary of State was not originally responsible for this. The issue that my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox) raises was first raised on 23 March 2020 when we were first putting the Coronavirus Act into law. The point made at the time was that the Act is not necessary, because it replicates many other pieces of legislation, and that the Act alone allows the Government to act without recourse to the House, which is not true of the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 or the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984. That is why it is wrong: because it does not have to come back to the House every time it takes away another piece of British freedom.

[Sajid Javid]

Like my right hon. Friend the Member for North Somerset (Dr Fox), my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) makes an important point. He will understand that now that the Act is in place, it is important that the Government act promptly and quickly at any time when we can retire, expire or in some cases suspend measures in it; that there is regular scrutiny of the process; and that I and other Ministers come to the House whenever we can to expire its provisions or, if they are to continue, to justify them.

[Dawn Butler]

The Act has always been presented on the Floor of the House as an all-or-nothing Bill; MPs never have an opportunity to change, amend or scrutinise it, so I think that the Secretary of State is just a little misleading in how he is presenting it to the House today.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Unintentionally misleading?

[Dawn Butler]

Unintentionally misleading.

[Sajid Javid]

Thank you for that intervention, Mr Deputy Speaker. I think that I have been very clear not only about the history of the Act, but about the importance of Ministers coming forward for regular scrutiny to set out which provisions can be expired or suspended, or if expiry or suspension are not possible, why the provisions are necessary. That is the purpose of our debate today.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

I think the problem for the Secretary of State is how the Government acted in the past by not bringing things to the House for debate; I know that the chairman of the 1922 committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Altrincham and Sale West (Sir Graham Brady), used a lot of force to try to get them to do so. We are being asked to take something on trust from the Government when their previous behaviour towards the Act has been—how can I say it? —not very good.

[Sajid Javid]

First, may I wish my hon. Friend a very happy birthday? He makes an important point in his valuable intervention. What I can say, which I certainly hope will reassure him, is that the Act will be regularly reviewed, that parliamentary scrutiny from all quarters is very welcome and that any powers retained in the Act need to be properly justified—they must be necessary and proportionate. That is the case that I am setting out on behalf of the Government today.

[John Redwood (Wokingham) (Con)]

A lot of us feel that this legislation should now just lapse, because there has been a material improvement in the situation. There are other powers should things go wrong, and this House could grant powers in the space of a few hours if there were a new and unpleasant crisis. Why do we have to have these powers hanging over our head when there does not seem to be a need to use them?

[Sajid Javid]

What I can tell my right hon. Friend is that there are provisions that we hope to keep in the Act, subject to the House’s will today, which are still necessary. For example, there are provisions that protect NHS capacity with respect to temporary registration of nurses and other healthcare professionals. There are similar provisions for the care sector; there are also provisions that provide support packages for those whose jobs may have been hit or who have to take time off work to meet the self-isolation requirements. There are provisions in the Act that I think are still necessary; I will speak about some of them in just a moment.

[Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend recognise that by leaving the Act intact, albeit with certain restrictions, he is leaving the opportunity for extreme measures to be taken relatively simply and with limited reference to this House, as the hon. Member for Brent Central (Dawn Butler) mentioned? A lot relates to pressures on the NHS; those could come because every winter the NHS is under pressure or because catching up on services puts it under pressure. I am interested to know how on earth my right hon. Friend will work through the next few months to understand what is an undue amount of pressure on the NHS that might require him to take the actions in plan A or plan B, or potentially even further actions.

[Sajid Javid]

In our response to the pandemic, we have set out clearly our plan for the autumn and winter; I have certainly done so in the House. We certainly expect more pressure as we head into winter. We have been very open about that; it is why the covid vaccination booster programme and the flu vaccination programme both remain important. However, there are provisions in the Act that I believe are still necessary and proportionate to help with the pressure that my hon. Friend refers to, such as the registration of healthcare and social care workers and the power to discontinue healthcare assessments for people being discharged from the NHS. I think that it is wise—especially as we head into the winter, when we do not know just how significant the pressures will be—to have that flexibility.

[Dr Andrew Murrison (South West Wiltshire) (Con)]

Would my right hon. Friend go a little further? As a medical support worker, I can tell him that there has been very little effort to follow through on a programme begun last year to encourage people to return to being patient-facing. They need to remain engaged; the Act is a good start in that process, but it does not appear to have been developed in any way. I agree absolutely that my right hon. Friend needs to keep those provisions in the Act, but he needs to develop them more than has been done so far—particularly because if we face a bad winter and possibly the resurgence of this or another virus, we will need those people. They need to remain engaged.

[Sajid Javid]

My right hon. Friend is right to draw attention to that point. We need to keep working on it, but it might be helpful to know that under section 2 of the Act, the Nursing and Midwifery Council has been able to register temporarily some 14,000 nurses, midwives and nursing associates in England, and the Health and Care Professions Council has been able to register more than 21,000 temporary paramedics, operating department practitioners, radiographers and other professionals. That has certainly helped the NHS and the care system.

We have already allowed 13 of the 40 temporary non-devolved provisions in the Coronavirus Act to expire, and at the most recent six-month review we deemed a further seven provisions and part of an eighth suitable for expiry. Last month, as we published our autumn and winter plan, I came to the House to set those out.

Some of the provisions that we are recommending for expiry are some of the most stringent aspects of the Coronavirus Act. They include section 51, which relates to potentially infectious persons and which has been used only 10 times and not since October 2020; section 52, which gave powers to issue directions relating to events, gatherings and premises, and which has never been used; section 23, which relates to time limits for urgent warrants under the Investigatory Powers Act 2016 and which is no longer proportionate to this stage of the pandemic; and section 37, which allowed for the disruption of education for children and young people with special educational needs and disabilities, and which continues to be unused.[Official Report, 22 October 2021, Vol. 701, c. 8MC.]

[Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD)]

The Secretary of State has been extolling the virtues of parliamentary scrutiny, which, as many right hon. and hon. Members have stated, has been sadly lacking of this Act and in its renewal debates. Will he give us a cast-iron guarantee that should he decide to bring forward vaccine passports, we will get not just a full parliamentary debate, but a vote on any such measures?

[Sajid Javid]

I think that the Government have already been clear that should we try to bring forward what the hon. Lady calls vaccine passports, it would be a decision for the House and it would be a vote. If that happened, we would have to justify it to the House.

In addition, we are expiring sections 56, 77 and 78. Taken together with the 13 out of 40 temporary non-devolved provisions in the Act that have already expired, that will mean that half of the original 40 temporary non-devolved powers in the Act will expire early.

[Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab)]

I welcome the lifting of the more draconian measures in the Coronavirus Act, including section 52 and schedule 22, which gave significant and unprecedented powers to the police relating to events, gatherings and premises, with no protections for the safeguarding of freedom of expression. Most of those powers are mirrored in the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill. Will the Secretary of State go back to his Government and secure an agreement to remove the more draconian elements of that Bill before its next stage?

[Sajid Javid]

I thank the hon. Lady for what she has said, but I think the Government have already set out clearly the provisions that they intend to expire or suspend, subject to the will of the House today, and explained why they have focused on those provisions. I can also inform the House that we recommend the suspension of the remaining unsuspended parts of schedule 28 and section 58.

I am sure the whole House will welcome this news—the latest steps that we are taking towards a more normal way of life—but the winter just around the comer is a cause for caution, with the twin threats of covid-19 and flu still uncertain. In line with our autumn and winter plan, we intend to retain the temporary provisions that remain essential to our ongoing pandemic work, including sections 2, 6, 14, 38, 45, 50 and 75, which cover vital aspects such as supporting the NHS to help it to retain emergency staff and enabling statutory sick pay to be provided for people who are self-isolating. We will review this legislation again in the spring.

[Sir Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale West) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend explain in detail which of the measures that the Government seek to retain could not be implemented alternatively by means of the Civil Contingencies Act or the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984?

[Sajid Javid]

My hon. Friend will know that there are numerous measures that the Government are planning to retain. To do proper justice to his question, I would have to go through them one by one and try to link them with every single Act, but I should be happy to meet him or write to him giving him the proper detail, because I think it was a very fair question.

[Dawn Butler]

rose—

[Sajid Javid]

I think I have given the hon. Lady enough opportunities to intervene.

We have come so far and achieved so much as a country because of the sacrifices of the British people and the dedication of our fantastic public servants. We are learning to live with the virus, so we can face the winter ahead with an ever greater degree of confidence. There is no doubt that we will continue to experience bumps on the road—covid-19 has not, of course, gone away, and flu remains an ever present danger—but I am confident that the steps that the Government have set out today strike the right balance, removing unnecessary stringent measures while retaining the tools to fight infection wherever it might arise.

15:22

[Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab/Co-op)]

We do not oppose the renewal of the Act and we will not oppose its renewal in the Division Lobby, but I do have huge sympathy with the Members who have raised concerns about the way in which the Act is scrutinised and asked questions about whether there are alternative means of putting this legislation on the statute book. The main reason we will not oppose the Act is the provision of statutory sick pay from day one and not day four, which was the case before the Act received Royal Assent. Given that we have a Chancellor who has been very keen to cut back universal credit, I am not convinced that if the Act fell today the Chancellor would carry on paying statutory sick pay from day one, and would find time to introduce an appropriate Bill. However, I urge Ministers to try to find a better way for the Act to be scrutinised.

Let us think back to March 2020—and I remember it well. A deathly silence was falling upon our streets, as we knew that a deadly pandemic was set to spread with ferocity. We knew that the House had to act with urgency and haste. Indeed, I, as shadow Health Secretary, was invited to Downing Street to meet the Prime Minister, to meet Dominic Cummings and to meet various officials, to discuss in principle agreeing to this Act on a cross-party basis. The then Health Secretary invited me to the Department of Health and Social Care on numerous occasions to sit down with him and his officials to discuss the content of the Act. We proceeded on a cross-party basis because we understood the gravity of the crisis that we were facing.

Measures were put in the Act that we had asked for, such as the provision of statutory sick pay from day one, but other measures were put in the Act that we had not asked for, although in the circumstances we were prepared to go along with them. One of the things that we asked of the Government, working with the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) and other Members, was a renewal of the Act every six months, on a regular basis. From memory, I think we may have asked for a renewal every three months, but we will have to double-check with Hansard on that front. We also asked for the ability for various aspects of the Act to be expired.

Perhaps I am naive, but I did not anticipate that 18 months later the Act would be renewed again on the basis of a 90-minute debate not allowing Members to scrutinise this properly—and given the way in which the House has decided to debate it, Members cannot even table amendments and have their point of view expressed on the Order Paper. I strongly encourage the Government —the Executive who control the business of the House—to try to find a more satisfactory way in which the Act can be properly scrutinised, particularly if the Government are minded to renew it again in six months’ time rather than expire it, as was originally intended.

[Mr Bone]

The right hon. Gentleman is making a powerful argument. Given what he has said, would it not be a good idea for the Opposition to vote against the motion and perhaps defeat the Government, so that the correct procedures could be in place tomorrow?

[Jonathan Ashworth]

The hon. Gentleman tempts me. I can understand that if the Act fell, there would be time for alternative provisions to be put in place, but I am afraid I do not have confidence in the continuation of this particular Treasury, which is keen to find savings in the public finances, to provide statutory sick pay from day one. Voting down the Act today would be voting down statutory sick pay from day one, and I do not want to see the Government revert to providing it from day four. That is why, although I have sympathy with the hon. Gentleman’s point, I am not prepared to vote down the Act.

[Dr Murrison]

I always listen to the right hon. Gentleman’s comments with the greatest of interest. He is concerned that there is not sufficient scrutiny. Will he compare and contrast the attendance in this short debate on the Government Benches with that on the Labour Benches? I count three of his Back-Bench colleagues at the moment.

[Jonathan Ashworth]

The right hon. Gentleman is better than that, with respect. He is very experienced, and he knows full well that right hon. and hon. Members have various responsibilities as Members of Parliament. Come on! That was akin to those ridiculous tweets that we sometimes see going around, saying that an important issue is being debated in Parliament and asking why the Benches are empty and so on, when it is an evening Adjournment debate.

[Richard Fuller]

I have a great deal of sympathy with what the right hon. Gentleman has just said, but there is an underlying point. On many occasions since March 2020, the Opposition have absented themselves from providing effective voting opposition to measures that the Government have proposed, often affecting the rights and liberties of individuals. If the right hon. Gentleman is saying that he is balancing all the issues involved in the restrictions that result from the continuation of the Act with the single purpose of continuing statutory sick pay for three days, and that because he is not prepared to test the willingness on the Government Benches to support him in any measure he would turn down this whole measure, I think that what he is handing us is giving him a little bit short of what he might expect.

[Jonathan Ashworth]

The hon. Gentleman knows full well that if the Government wanted to bring forward a separate Bill to pay statutory sick pay from day one—and to increase the level of statutory sick pay, which is not currently at a satisfactory level—that would of course have our support. However, that would have to come from the Executive. It is unlikely to come from Back Benchers, although I am confident that, should such an opportunity present itself, the hon. Gentleman would find himself in the same Lobby as me on the question of paying enhanced statutory sick pay.

A number of provisions have been taken out of the Act that restricted liberties and freedoms. We raised concerns about those provisions six months ago and 12 months ago, and we are pleased that they have been lifted from the Act, particularly those sections that gave the power to detain potentially infectious persons, which have been used for a number of prosecutions, every one of which was found to be unlawful by the Crown Prosecution Service. Hon. Members from both sides of the House made that point in the six-month debate and in the original debate 12 months ago, so we are pleased that the Government have listened to those Members and to the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which said that those powers ought to be repealed. They have now been removed from the Act.

There are some sections whose removal from the Act we would question. A lot of my local government colleagues have asked why the powers that enable local authorities to meet remotely have been removed from the Act. Would it not be better to allow local authorities to come to their own decisions on whether they want to continue to hold online meetings in the next few months? I am not quite sure why we need to remove that provision from the Act.

Of course we would not want to lose statutory sick pay from day one, but the Secretary of State also referred to the emergency legislation covering healthcare workers. This is important because it means that we can get recently retired workers back on their licences and back onto the frontline. We would not want to lose that from the Act. The Act continues to allow remote participation in court proceedings to take place, which we believe is needed in the current circumstances.

The Act was not the legislation that brought in the lockdowns, including the local lockdowns for my home city of Leicester and areas such as Burnley, Bolton and Calderdale, which, sadly, were put into localised lockdown in the past year or so. None of us wants to see those lockdowns ever again. Nobody wants to see a national lockdown, and nobody wants to see local lockdowns. I understand that the Government have quite rightly ruled out further lockdowns, but the public health crisis is not over. That is why we still need some of the provisions in the Act. Covid has not gone away. We can learn to live with the virus, but that is not the same as pretending the virus no longer exists. Yesterday, we recorded close to 50,000 infections, more than 7,000 people were in hospital—with nearly 800 in ICU—and every day on average 100 of our fellow citizens sadly die from this disease. A decision on vaccination in schools by the appropriate committee was delayed, but record numbers of children are now infected. In the past three weeks, we have seen an average of 10,000 new covid infections every day in schools and thousands are missing school as a consequence.

The ongoing pandemic is making existing inequalities worse and worse, so we need some of these provisions to stay on the statute book. However, we need to go further as well. As I have said, I never want to see another lockdown again, either locally in my home city of Leicester or nationally. There are a couple of things that I hope the Government will consider in order to avoid further lockdowns and to avoid needing some of the most draconian measures in the Act to return.

First, we need to fund public health properly in the spending review. The virus thrives on health inequalities. The Secretary of State rightly referred to health disparities and stalling life expectancy in Blackpool, but his Government have presided over public health cuts of £43 per person per year across Blackpool, which are some of the largest in the country. Secondly, we need substantial investment in ventilation support for businesses, public spaces and schools. Better ventilation has been proven, time and again, to reduce the transmission of covid. In addition, it brings other health benefits.

We know that vaccination is waning and that parts of the programme are stalling. The wall of defence is crumbling, so we need to encourage those retired clinicians who helped with the initial vaccination programme to help again. We also need to encourage those retired clinicians who did not help out last time to consider playing their part. That is why the clauses in the Act on the emergency registration of healthcare workers need to remain on the statute book.

We also need to fix the booster programme. As of Friday, only half of eligible over-80s had received their booster jab. Charities including Blood Cancer UK and Kidney Care UK are warning that the third-dose programme for the immunosuppressed has been a “chaotic failure”, with between 55% and 60% yet to be invited to get a third dose, as of Friday. What are the Government going to do to scale up third jabs and boosters? Will the Government consider pop-up clinics, for example? They were successful in the previous round of vaccinations.

Our case rates are concentrated among the young, but only around 30% of children have been vaccinated. One problem in getting vaccinations out to children is that there are not enough staff, which is another reason why we need the emergency registration provisions to stay on the statute book to try to encourage more retired clinicians to join the children’s vaccination programme.

The Secretary of State is now allowing children to book a vaccination in a walk-in centre for half-term, but it is half-term this week in some parts of the country, including in Leicester, so can that part of the programme start today rather than waiting for next week?

There are still parts of the country, including Leicester and many London boroughs such as Brent, Lambeth and Tower Hamlets, as well as parts of the country that were in lockdown last time such as Blackburn and Pendle, where second-dose rates are still below the national average. What will we do to drive up vaccination rates in those parts of the country that were in lockdown last time and where vaccination rates are still too low? Will the Secretary of State consider guaranteeing mandated paid time off for vaccination and mandated sick pay for people who need to take a couple of days off due to side effects or due to feeling unwell, as people sometimes do following a vaccination?

We will support the Government in renewing this Act, although we want them to find a better way of scrutinising its provisions. We are concerned about the infection rates we are seeing. The embers are burning bright again and, because we were world leading on vaccination, we could be world leading again on the waning of vaccination. We need a plan to drive up boosters, to drive up third doses and to drive up second doses for those who have not had them. This disease remains lethal, especially to the frail, to those with underlying health conditions and, obviously, to those who are unvaccinated.

Let us strengthen the vaccination programme, let us pay proper sick pay, let us ensure fresh, clean air in public buildings and let us properly fund public health. Remember that the Select Committee reported last week that the Government’s handling was one of the worst public health failures in British history. This is no time for complacency, and I hope Ministers act now.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

There is a limited amount of time for this debate, which needs to finish at 4.31 pm, and I want to give the Minister 10 minutes to respond. There are more people standing than indicated to the Speaker’s Office that they wanted to speak, which means there is even more pressure on time. I ask hon. and right hon. Members to confine their speeches to five minutes.

15:37

[Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con)]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will, of course, obey your strictures on time.

I welcome what the Secretary of State has done in not continuing with some of the most offensive and egregious provisions in the Act, particularly the one enabling almost indefinite detention. I have looked very carefully at the provisions that are being continued, and all the very unwelcome powers are not being continued. Although there remain some unwelcome powers with which I might quibble and although, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) said, there are other ways of delivering some of them, the most offensive ones have been removed, which I welcome. I therefore will not seek to divide the House. If others were to do so, I will not oppose the renewal of these provisions.

It is worth saying, because many people outside the House do not understand this point, that it is not the Coronavirus Act 2020 but the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984 that has been used to deliver the lockdown measures and the other measures that people have found so very difficult. The 1984 Act remains in place and gives Ministers all the powers they would want to be able to lock down the country again—I hope that is never needed, but they have the powers if they need them. I do not think that Act comes with sufficient scrutiny, which is why I strongly support the campaign of my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker) to reform it by better combining the necessary powers with the necessary parliamentary scrutiny.

On parliamentary scrutiny, I welcome what I detected was an improvement in the tone from the Opposition. I welcome what the shadow Secretary of State said; there was an increasing recognition that scrutiny and challenge to government is necessary. When some of my colleagues and I were challenging and opposing some of the Government measures that predate my right hon. Friend’s accession to the post of Secretary of State for Health and Social Care, it felt like a lonely occupation. We were not joined by the shadow Secretary of State or by many of his colleagues, so I am pleased that he is becoming more enamoured of the concept of scrutiny, which is very welcome for the Opposition.

[Mr Davis]

May I ask my right hon. Friend to hesitate in his laudatory comments about the Opposition Front Benchers? One problem we have is that we cannot amend the provisions. The deal they did not strike back on 23 March 2020, and that they should have, was that this should have been an amendable measure. We could then have put everything right.

[Mr Harper]

That is exactly right. It is for that reason that if there were a Division I would not be voting for this legislation, because I do not think it comes with enough parliamentary scrutiny—the sort of scrutiny that there is if we use the Civil Contingencies Act 2004.

[John Redwood]

Would it not also help the Government’s case if they gave us more detail on which of these measures actually worked and did some good? We need more post-result audits so that we can have more confidence in some of these measures.

[Mr Harper]

My right hon. Friend makes a good point, which would be worth following up.

Conscious of your strictures, Madam Deputy Speaker, let me make a couple of final points. On the issue raised by the hon. Member for Twickenham (Munira Wilson) on vaccine passports, the Secretary of State gave half of the right answer, which was that the Government would have to persuade the House to introduce vaccine passports, and he confirmed that the House would have to vote on it. The final piece to come in his wind-up remarks is that that vote will come ahead of any decision to introduce vaccine passports, rather than there being only a retrospective vote after their introduction. If he confirmed that, he would do the House a powerful service.

The final point is to reinforce what the shadow Secretary of State was saying, and what I said in my intervention, about speeding up second doses and third doses for those who are immunosuppressed and, to release the pressure on the NHS, focusing on improvements in social care this winter. My local NHS trust—I have raised this issue with the Secretary of State privately—has made the point that some of the pressures are because it cannot get the people who have received all the hospital treatment they need out into the community, because of a lack of either residential social care or domiciliary social care. For it to deliver on clearing the backlogs of healthcare and to stop accident and emergency backing up, it must be able to get people out of the “back door” of the hospital into social care or back home. It is social care that will put the NHS under critical pressure this winter, in the next few weeks, so I urge my right hon. Friend to focus on the social care aspect of NHS pressure, not just on NHS pressure. With that, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will broadly obey your strictures and sit down.

15:43

[Martyn Day (Linlithgow and East Falkirk) (SNP)]

I had a profound sense of déjà vu in preparing for today’s debate, although it is hard to believe it is six months since we last considered this and 18 months since our nations went into lockdown, during which period I have probably said everything on this subject before. Let me recap by saying that the Scottish Government support the four-nations approach to tackling coronavirus as far as is possible, while respecting differences of approach. Thankfully, the direction of travel is that we are all emerging from the pandemic and, gradually, more of our old freedoms are being restored. As I did last time, let me pay tribute to everyone for everything they have done to support us and the NHS during this unprecedented period. My thoughts and prayers are with everyone who has lost loved ones to covid throughout this period, and too many have—there have been more than 161,000 deaths and, sadly, the number is still rising.

When we last debated the temporary provisions, I was looking forward to receiving my first vaccination; like so many, I am now fully vaccinated. Vaccination really is a game-changer and I encourage everyone who is offered a vaccine to take up that offer. If anyone has not yet done so, will they please reconsider?

[Dr Murrison]

When the hon. Gentleman says vaccination, I hope he also means vaccination against seasonal flu, which is currently at the front of my mind as this morning I had my jab in the Attlee Room in Portcullis House. Seasonal flu will potentially cause more of a problem this winter than covid. It is important to get that message across. Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that we are currently not where we really ought to be in vaccinating people against flu?

[Martyn Day]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his comments, and I do indeed agree. I wonder whether he has seen an advance copy of my notes, because I was coming to that very point. We are still witnessing too many infections and I worry that, when they are combined with flu, we could yet have a very difficult winter ahead for our health services—a “twindemic”, if you like. The successful roll-out of vaccinations and the protection of the most vulnerable remain essential, so I thank the right hon. Gentleman for that point.

As I have said, the SNP welcomes the four-nations approach to tackling the coronavirus pandemic. However, the UK Government would do well to match Scotland’s science and public health-first approach for the remainder of the pandemic. The Scottish Government have followed the science and done what they can within their power, which is why Scotland retains stronger rules on face masks, for example. As we head into what will likely be a difficult winter, the UK Government must be willing to follow the examples set by the devolved nations and be prepared to introduce measures such as face masks in shops and on transport, to protect people from both coronavirus and flu this winter.

[Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con)]

Scotland and Wales have national ID cards, and if plan B is triggered in England, there is a possibility that we will have an ID card in England, too. Does the hon. Gentleman feel it would have been better to have a whole-United Kingdom covid ID card, so that each nation is in sync, or does he think it is better for each nation to have individual ID cards?

[Martyn Day]

I should point that they are not ID cards but vaccine certificates. As I have said, we respect the differences, and although we welcome a four-nations approach we will move differently if things move at different paces.

[Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)]

On the hon. Gentleman’s stricture about the mask mandate— the requirement on which he wishes us to follow Scotland—the wearing of masks does not seem to have reduced the rate of infection in Scotland, which is somewhat higher than it is in England, does it?

[Martyn Day]

I am an enthusiastic mask wearer for one simple reason that I think helps us all: it sends a very strong message to people that the virus has not gone away. I therefore encourage people to wear a mask, which also has benefits in the reduction of transmission.

The UK Government must be prepared to support people financially should greater restrictions need to be reintroduced this winter if conditions deteriorate. Failing that, they must provide the powers to the devolved Governments to do so themselves.

We in the SNP continue to have serious concerns about the lack of parliamentary scrutiny of the powers in the UK Government’s Coronavirus Act 2020, and we have raised those concerns on several occasions from Second Reading onwards. It is important that Parliament has its say, especially now, as the pressure of the pandemic is easing. As I have said in previous debates, the reviews of the temporary provisions must not be rubber-stamping exercises; they must provide meaningful scrutiny, protect human rights and promote public health.

It is important that Parliament has its say on the regulations in place to tackle the biggest health emergency of our lifetimes. The Government are under huge pressure, but their decisions need the insight and legitimacy of Parliament. By giving Parliament the ability to scrutinise the schedules and measures individually, we could have gone a long way towards that aim. It is unacceptable that Parliament does not have that ability. For example, the SNP supports the repeal of schedule 21, which contains broad police detention powers. Scottish police have not used schedule 21 powers in Scotland and alternative laws could be used in lieu of the schedule.

We are not out of the pandemic yet; it will be with us for some time to come and the global threats of new variants will be with us until the world is vaccinated. We have to get this right. When I last spoke on the temporary provisions six months ago, I stated that

“more needs to be done to restore public trust in the handling of issues such as covid contracts and in the security of powers contained in the Act.”—[Official Report, 25 March 2021; Vol. 691, c. 1125.]

I fear very much that the Government are not learning lessons fast enough, particularly in respect of contracts and vaccinations.

The case of Valneva in West Lothian is a clear example. Yesterday, that vaccine company which is developing the only inactivated covid-19 vaccine in clinical development in Europe, and manufacturing that vaccine in Scotland, published positive data from its phase 3 clinical trial. I welcome the fact that the Health and Social Care Secretary has changed his views since incorrectly telling the House that Valneva’s vaccine would not get approval from the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency. We know that, if approved, Valneva will be the only inactivated, adjuvanted whole virus vaccine against covid-19 in the UK—a fantastic innovation, particularly for those who have been waiting for an inactivated vaccine. I want to know when it might be available for our constituents. I hope the Secretary of State will join me in welcoming this news, made possible by support from the Department of Health and Social Care and the National Institute for Health Research, and recognise that it paves the way towards initial approval from the MHRA.

Finally, while maintaining health policies for the remainder of the pandemic is sensible, this must be done with the scrutiny of Parliament and the confidence of the public.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

In order to be helpful, I will impose a five-minute limit. If colleagues take less than that, we will definitely get everybody in.

15:50

[Chris Green (Bolton West) (Con)]

We are in a profoundly different place from where we were 19 months ago when we entered the pandemic and went through a series of lockdowns. The medicines that doctors use and prescribe and the procedures that are in place are all profoundly improved. The vaccination programme has been a revelation thanks to the quality, the range and the roll-out of the vaccines. We must recognise that, today, we are in a profoundly different situation from where we were right at the beginning. We just have to look at the third wave that we are going through at the moment and at the connection between infections, hospitalisations and deaths. Those rates are fundamentally different from those in the first and second waves, so we should be taking a profoundly different approach to dealing with this virus.

All variants of concern are defeated by our vaccines at the moment, and we have every expectation that that will continue to be the case into the future. By maintaining the Coronavirus Act 2020, but with perhaps a limited number of provisions, we maintain the fundamental approach to dealing with this virus. Society as a whole and the civil service more narrowly are still looking at this challenge in the same way, and there is not, in that sense, a change of mindset.

We are approaching what will be a tough winter. No matter what happens, we will have a very difficult winter. That may be due to the coronavirus itself or to influenza, but it will also be due to the very significant build-up in waiting lists and in conditions that should have been investigated 18 months ago. We know that these cases are building up and that it will create a huge amount of pressure on the national health service.

I want to focus today on the care sector. Some 18 or 19 months ago, we would have had cross-party consensus on the fact that the care sector needed fundamental reform. That is far more true today than it was back then. It is clear that the care sector needs far more resources today than it needed then. There is a shortfall of about 100,000 carers. With the compulsory vaccination approach that has been taken in the care sector, the Government are expecting another 40,000 carers to leave. That will create huge problems not only for the carers, but for the residents themselves.

In my constituency, the care sector is already under tremendous pressure. Some people are leaving because of the pressure that they are under, and some because they choose not to be vaccinated. Some of them are finding employment in the national health service. They are leaving the care sector and going into the national health service to provide care there, but at some point we may be imposing vaccinations in the national health service as well. We do not know how many will leave the NHS at that stage, but if vaccinations in the NHS stand at about 90%, we could be looking at a loss of more than 100,000 people.

We have concerns about people being transferred out of care in the national health service and into the care sector. We know that the situation is going to get substantially worse as we go through the winter and more carers leave the care sector, but we do not yet know when the same approach will be imposed on the national health service. I therefore ask the Minister: what is the Department’s thinking at the moment? When will we impose compulsory vaccination on the NHS, just as has been imposed on the care sector, and what impact will that have?

We need a fundamental reset in our approach to dealing with the coronavirus. The circumstances are fundamentally different now, because of medical advances and so many other things. We have the opportunity to reverse the decision on the care sector. We want to keep carers caring where they want to be caring. We ought not to be imposing this decision now, because in a couple of weeks it is going to be too late. I am concerned about plan B and the possibility of ID cards or covid passes—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. We need to move on.

15:56

[Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab)]

Today really feels like groundhog day. The Government are again pushing through the Coronavirus Act with no scrutiny from Parliament. I do not know what it is about this authoritarian Act that the Government love to push through. Some 18 months ago, the Bill was nodded through—understandably, in a way, but it was never, ever proportionate. As the Secretary of State said, it was fast-tracked legislation. It contained really draconian powers, including the powers to postpone elections, close borders, detain people not suspected of a crime, ban gatherings and remove safeguards for disabled people. This is the mother of all Parliaments and we should always have the opportunity to scrutinise Government legislation. That is what we are elected to do. This all-or-nothing approach does not wash; it is wrong.

As a parliamentarian, I want to get my control back. I want to get back my powers to scrutinise the Government. The Government should not be the sole decider of legislation. We live in a democracy, not an autocracy. The Government should not be making all the rules themselves. That said, I am pleased that some of the most draconian parts of the Act have now been expired. I had a meeting with the Minister and am pleased that she listened to my concerns. Section 51 and schedule 21 —the powers relating to potentially infectious persons—have now been removed. As has been said, every single charge under schedule 21 was wrongful. Those 292 charges were incorrect, and that meant 292 distressed people who were already distressed during the pandemic.

We have to make sure that the Bill is fit for purpose, and ultimately it is not. It therefore needs to be scrapped and there needs to be a new Bill. I am already the sponsor of a Bill that has been presented to the House: the Coronavirus (No. 2) Bill. If we were to vote down this Act today, we would have 21 days to bring forward a new Bill. There is already one that is ready—oven-ready, some might say. [Interruption.] You liked that, did you? My Bill is properly ready to go.

This Government have proved time and again that they cannot be trusted. It is one rule for them and one for us. The latest person that we found had broken the rules was the Prime Minister himself, as his wife’s best friend went around to theirs for Christmas dinner, while other people dined alone throughout Christmas. As I have said, if we voted down this Act, we would have 21 days to bring a new Bill to the Floor of the House. We can do that and we can do it quickly.

I congratulate the Secretary of State on his new role and I appeal to him to consider one more vital change. I urge the Government to review every fixed-penalty notice issued under the coronavirus and public health regulations, and to establish an appeals mechanism, because people cannot appeal at the moment. Between March 2020 and June 2021, the police processed 117,213 fines. Let us not forget that we had no chance to scrutinise provisions when the Government raised fines from £960 to £10,000. The Guardian revealed that people of colour were 54% more likely to be fined than white people. I say to colleagues in all parts of the House that we should never be forced into an all-or-nothing approach when it comes to legislation. That is not our job. We are parliamentarians and we need to scrutinise legislation. Twenty-one days is enough time to consider better legislation. As we have the Coronavirus (No. 2) Bill, based on Liberty’s “Protect Everyone Bill”, I say to every single Member of this House that we can do that.

I am clear that we need to repeal and replace the Coronavirus Act not just because it is dangerous with regard to our rights and our liberties, or because it served the purpose that it was meant to 18 months ago, but because we must do better. We must learn the lessons. I am part of the Science and Technology Committee and there is a joint report that says that this Government have failed on so many occasions. This is an opportunity where we can do better and where this Government can do better. Let us do better, not just for us but for the country.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

I am going to reduce the limit to four minutes but it should stay at four minutes if I do it now.

16:00

[Mr David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden) (Con)]

I agree with every word of what the hon. Member for Brent Central (Dawn Butler) said. She made the point that we took the Bill through the House in one day and it was in fact unnecessary because the power was already replicated in the Civil Contingencies Act 2004 and the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984. That was not just my opinion on 23 March—it was also reiterated by the Speaker’s Counsel, who actually wrote the Civil Contingencies Act, so that makes the point in terms.

Some improvements have been made in the proposal before us today, and that is good. However, as the hon. Lady said, we had forced quarantine, effectively house arrest, for the whole population; schools shuttered; cancelled elections; lone doctors being allowed to section people, an astonishing removal of civil liberties; families being unable to hold the hands of their loved ones; dog walkers in Derbyshire being embarrassed; and people being stopped because they had coffee on a walk in the park. This is not the sort of thing that is policing by consent in the United Kingdom. As she said, of 292 cases brought by the police, not one stood up—not one. That is an astonishing statistic, and we should remind ourselves every day this Act is in place that that is the case.

The other point, which the hon. Lady did not make much of but I think is important, is that of accountability. The point of bringing the Government back here—any Government, by the way, not just this Government—is to improve decision making; to make them make the right decisions. We have just had an astonishingly thorough report from two Select Committees that has pointed out that the Government have made mistake after mistake after mistake—mistakes that cost thousands of lives. The one that leaps out at me is the treatment of care homes, but that was only one part of it: there was also the triaging system. All of it led to thousands of lives being lost. Those mistakes might not have been made if the Government had to justify every element of their strategy throughout these past 575 days. What I said back on 23 March—that this was an unnecessary Bill—I believe still today. I agree that the way to do this is to rewrite the whole thing from scratch.

16:03

[Munira Wilson (Twickenham) (LD)]

I agree with the comments of the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) and the hon. Member for Brent Central (Dawn Butler).

Given the sweeping and draconian powers that this Government granted themselves under the cover of an emergency, Liberal Democrats only very reluctantly supported this unprecedented legislation for an unprecedented crisis back in March last year, when we knew very little about the virus. I am proud that my party pushed hard for a three-monthly review of these powers, which then secured us the six-monthly review. But at each renewal, as has been said so eloquently, there has been limited opportunity to scrutinise or to table or debate amendments.

While there were important measures in the Act relating to benefits, furlough and registration of healthcare professionals, the Government have had ample time since to legislate properly, with proper scrutiny, for those important measures, yet they chose not to. Instead, unnecessary, far-reaching powers encroaching on our civil liberties have twice been renewed, with minimal debate—measures such as detention of potentially infectious persons that I believe have actually resulted in 295, not 292, wrongful prosecutions. That is why Liberal Democrats have consistently voted against the renewal of this Act.

Ministers have proved, as has already been said, that they did not need many of the powers they awarded themselves on restricting gatherings or closing down education settings. I hope and pray we never close any schools again, and I hope that the Secretary of State will give us a cast-iron guarantee on that. Throughout the pandemic, the Government have used existing public health legislation or guidance to impose restrictions, so I am glad that they have finally seen the light and are today expiring many of these controversial measures. It is not before time, but once again we have been granted merely 90 minutes to discuss the remaining legislation. I am afraid that we will see this casual approach to our civil liberties once again with vaccine passports, given the number of flip-flops and U-turns we have had on that subject.

I welcome the Secretary of State’s comments to me earlier that there will be a vote of this House. I reiterate the question of the right hon. Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper) about whether we will get a vote in advance of any vaccine passports being introduced, because the track record we have seen with the Coronavirus Act 2020 does not fill me with any confidence in this Government. I urge them to stop riding roughshod over this Parliament and to allow us to do our duty as elected representatives and properly scrutinise, amend and vote on measures that fundamentally curtail our liberties.

16:06

[Mr Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

I refer to the declarations I have made relating to the Covid Recovery Group. When we rammed this Act of Parliament through, I stood over there in Committee and said it would bring forward a dystopian society. I had no idea then of just how dystopian it would be. I could never have imagined that two friends could draw the attention of the police for going for a walk with a coffee. I could not have imagined the complexity of the rules around social and childcare bubbles, which caught out even the Prime Minister—or, if not caught out, at least drew the scrutiny of the media. We should never have got ourselves into a position where the rules were so complex that whether someone could have a friend round at Christmas was a question worthy of scrutiny in a major newspaper.

As for care homes, I will share a brief part of a quote from a constituent. He said:

“Just before my wife died was our 50th wedding anniversary and her 77th birthday. I was allowed to look through an almost closed window for the 50th but talking was almost impossible…on her birthday.”

Some of us have only been married for 25 years. Who among us could possibly imagine how that must have felt? I could read the rest of the quote, but there is not time and it is too upsetting.

My goodness, what a dystopian time we have been through. One of my greatest fears is about the fact that the Conservative party has been on this side of the House while we have done it, because only one party, with the possible exception of the Lib Dems on occasion, can really say it is a party of Government that stands for freedom, and that is the Conservative party. With great respect to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State—he is a great man who believes in liberty—it will be difficult for all the people who stayed in the Cabinet and took these decisions to say that they stand for freedom in the years ahead. I am absolutely determined to recover from the position we are and have been in, but we will need a Government who can stand for freedom and do it with a great deal of sincerity, for all my respect for my hon. and right hon. Friends on the Front Bench. I know this has been an extremely difficult time for them, but we need a change of heart.

I absolutely agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper). The substance of the motion before the House is relatively inoffensive, compared with what we have been through. I hope the House will not divide. If it does divide, I will not vote for the motion, but abstain, because we should do this sort of thing in a different way. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for expiring the schedule 21 and schedule 22 powers.

The point is where we have come to. Of course the substance of the law matters, but it is about the presentation. There are people now outside who do not understand what we have done and have started falling into conspiracy theories, and it is hardly any wonder. I was accosted on the street outside by some people who had perhaps had a couple of drinks and recognised me. They were shouting at me about this Bill, which was not very welcome after the day we had had, but they have fallen into the idea that the Coronavirus Act 2020 has been used to lock us down, and as my right hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean said, it is not true; it is the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984, which still hangs over our heads like a sword of Damocles.

The Secretary of State, for all my faith in his good character, has only to walk into his office and sign a piece of paper and we will all be locked down at home again. It is the most extraordinary power for one man to hold over us all, and that must be changed. That is why I am grateful to Lord Sumption for giving me the outline of the 1984 Act reform that I hope the Secretary of State will look at. I appeal to him in good faith. He is a believer in liberty. We will need to change how the 1984 Act powers are exercised if we truly are believers in freedom, democracy and the rule of law.

It is time for these powers to lapse and be replaced with legislation that can be more considered. I hope that the legislation just goes through today because, as I say, it is relatively inoffensive, but we will need to turn the corner and show the public that we stand for freedom and that in the long run, after we have coped with coronavirus, their rights are sacrosanct and we will never, ever do to them again what we have done in the past couple of years.

16:10

[Richard Burgon (Leeds East) (Lab)]

We need to have a frank and honest discussion about where we are on covid. It is now clear that the Government’s covid strategy is again going badly wrong with fatal consequences.

We need to be clear that our country currently has the world’s second highest number of new cases and the world’s second highest number of hospitalisations. At the start of this month, more than 200,000 pupils were off school due to covid. Even on the vaccines roll-out, we are falling behind: we have slipped to around 12th best in Europe. Over the past month, there have been double the number of deaths compared with the same time last year. Most worryingly, the current rate of daily deaths would amount to 40,000 deaths per year.

We should be in no doubt that many of those deaths are avoidable. People are dying as a direct result of the Government’s refusal to implement basic public health measures. I am talking about not lockdowns, but the kind of measures that are normal in many other countries. We are not doing them because the Government want to pretend that they can draw a line under covid, but we cannot just wish it away.

Where is the plan to require masks on public transport and in shops? Where is the plan for sick pay at real living wage levels? Where is the plan to tackle high infection rates in schools with the simple measures being asked for by the teaching unions and parents? Where is the plan, more than 20 months on from the start of the pandemic, to give people proper sick pay, as I said, so they are not forced into work when they are ill? Getting those basics right now could still save thousands of lives. We know that because the Government’s own scientists have said so. The Government have a moral duty to act, but instead they are sleepwalking into another deadly winter.

Some of the measures being debated today for the renewal of the powers of the Coronavirus Act are needed, but most of what we are discussing is irrelevant to the debate we need to have to tackle high cases as we go into winter. The Government are not giving MPs the opportunity to debate the wider public health measures that we urgently need. For that reason, I will not be supporting the Government in any vote today.

Time and again during the pandemic, the Government have acted late, and have cost lives by doing so. I urge them to act now and bring in the simple measures that we know can make a difference and save lives, which are masks on public transport and in shops, better ventilation in workplaces, a strategy for tackling high infection rates in schools, and sick pay at real living wage levels for all who need it.

16:13

[Neale Hanvey (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (Alba)]

I begin by expressing my gratitude to all the healthcare workers in my constituency and across the rest of the UK. They have had an incredibly hard shift and they have coped with it admirably.

I do not want to rehash comments that have already been made about the Government’s avoidance of scrutiny when putting forward the Act. It cannot be avoided, however, that the legislation being brought forward is confirmation of the indictment of the Government and their failure to manage covid effectively. They have put all their eggs in a single basket—the basket of vaccination—and their insistence on vaccination as a single-strand strategy and the abandonment of the non-pharmaceutical interventions mentioned by the hon. Member for Leeds East (Richard Burgon) have allowed the spread of the delta variant throughout our communities. We are now hearing that the roll-out of the booster programme has run into problems, and we are also hearing of the emergence of a new strain of the delta variant that may well be vaccination-resistant, which should cause us all great concern.

Other questions related to this are just as important as the vaccination programme, such as how do we respond to this virus when or if vaccinations stop working? There is lots of research happening in the States. I have friends who are microbiologists working in that field in New York, and they have developed monoclonal antibodies that are very effective in treating covid. That is something I would like to know more about this Government taking a principled stand on.

The other point I want to make is about the use of vaccine passports. The point has been made very clearly today about the risk of their intruding into the lives and privacy of citizens. I would say that, in my view, without a comprehensive infection control strategy in which there is robust testing, non-pharmaceutical interventions and a clear programme of surveillance, vaccine passports are little more than a gimmick. They do not provide any information of great use. They do not tell us whether a person has had a good immune response, whether they are currently infected or whether they are currently infectious, so they are of no real benefit, but are a great intrusion into civil liberties.

[Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)]

I will be very quick. I am not sure where I stand on vaccine passports, but I do know where I stand on the fact that one of my constituents, who was vaccinated in England and then vaccinated in Scotland, cannot go to university courses because the four nations strategy does not actually allow them to talk to each other and she cannot get a pass or a certificate that says she is double vaccinated.

[Neale Hanvey]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for making that point, which I was not aware of until now, but I am certainly not the person to speak to in defence of vaccine passports. Quite frankly, I really think they are a gimmick and a sticking plaster. I would say that we have collectively missed the boat. We have spoken about the risk of influenza infections in the winter and, as that approaches, if we had maintained some form of non-pharmaceutical interventions, such as maintaining the use of masks in public spaces and on public transport, we could have helped manage both the risk of covid and the risk of winter influenza.

In closing, I would just ask the Government to begin to look at and prepare for what strategy they are going to employ should vaccination cease to be an effective treatment for this pandemic.

16:18

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Maggie Throup)]

It is a pleasure to be closing this debate, and I thank hon. Members from all across the House for their contributions today. It is clear from the speeches we have heard—and, indeed, from the fact that the House can meet at full capacity once again—that we have made so much progress in our fight against covid-19. This is thanks to the perseverance and resolve of the British people, and also to our vaccination programme, which has now given first doses to over 85.9% of the population of the UK over the age of 12. It is this life-saving work that has disrupted the once inevitable link between cases, hospitalisations and deaths, and that has allowed us to start carefully reopening our society and our economy once again.

This battle forced us to take unprecedented steps in pursuit of a lethal virus, and the Coronavirus Act has been a vital weapon in our armoury, but we have said throughout our response that we did not want to keep these powers in place for any longer than we have to and that the House performs an essential role in scrutinising the measures every six months.

In 2020, and shortly after the one-year review, we came before Parliament to remove provisions from the Act that were no longer needed. So far 13 of the non-devolved temporary provisions have already been expired and, as pledged in our autumn and winter plan, we are looking to expire even more of these provisions and will lay regulations very soon to make this happen so that we can continue down the path to normal life.

[Simon Hoare (North Dorset) (Con)]

May I invite my hon. Friend to remind the House and the country that the instincts of the Government sitting behind this Act were benign and in support of public health, not malign and vindictive and trying to erode liberties? These were unprecedented times that required emergency action. Those actions have paid dividends; they were difficult but right. The intention was benign not malign, contrary to what some of our colleagues seem to suggest.

[Maggie Throup]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention. The Government were acting in very difficult times and had to take unprecedented measures, as he rightly said.

The Secretary of State explained the provisions in detail in his opening statement, so I will not repeat those that we will be expiring but they include some of the most stringent measures in the Act such as directing the temporary closure of educational institutions, the detention of potentially infectious people, and enabling Ministers to restrict or prohibit gatherings or events. Meanwhile the powers in the Act that we are retaining are those that are critical to our response to the pandemic; after all, as the Opposition spokesman rightly said, this virus has not gone away. We are facing a difficult winter, a time when we have seen from experience that the virus poses a particular threat, so we are keeping in place provisions that are fundamental to our response, for example to make sure the NHS is properly resourced and to support statutory sick pay for those who are self-isolating.

[Bob Stewart]

I rise to repeat the point I made to the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Neale Hanvey). It would be very good if the NHSs in all four parts of the kingdom were to get together and ensure that those who have had one vaccination in one part of the kingdom and another in a different part could have a piece of paper that allows them to, for instance, attend a lecture. At the moment, at least one of my constituents is not allowed to go to a lecture because she had one vaccination in England and one in Scotland, and the NHS in Scotland does not recognise the England one and the NHS in England does not recognise the Scottish one. What is going on? It is mad.

[Maggie Throup]

I reassure my right hon. Friend that there are ongoing talks across all the devolved nations and the interoperability of the devices are being looked into; work is under way on that.

[Dr Murrison]

Will my hon. Friend also scrutinise the Bill, as a number of colleagues have mentioned this afternoon, to find those bits that were inserted as expedients but probably need to be refined a little and perhaps given a different statutory basis, such as the certificates in section 19, which for many years have been a nice little money-earner for members of my profession but a burden on the deceased’s estate and which really are not necessary?

[Maggie Throup]

Of course we keep every aspect of the Act under review and will continue to do so.

Members have made a number of compelling points and I would like to address them and respond to some of the questions raised. The shadow spokesman raised the issue of vaccinations and I am pleased to report that 3.6 million booster jabs have been delivered to date over a very short time period. This week sees the launch of a communications campaign on the importance of flu jabs. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State announced earlier, the national booking service will open for vaccination bookings for young people shortly and letters will be sent to parents and guardians of children aged 12 to 15 over coming weeks inviting them to book the vaccine online or by calling 119. Jabs will continue to be delivered in schools and if the child has already been invited through their school they do not need to act on their invite unless the parents wish to do so. This is a further option for parents to get their children vaccinated.

In response to my right hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), on 23 September, the Government laid out their plans for parliamentary scrutiny should there be a need for vaccine certification. The Government recognise the vital importance of parliamentary scrutiny. In addition, there was a call for evidence, which closed on 11 October. I trust that my right hon. Friend was able to contribute to that.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West (Chris Green) raised the issue of care workers. My father was in a care home for seven years. I know from personal experience that care workers become part of the family and play a really important role.

[Mr Harper]

Before my hon. Friend moves on, may I press her a little further? She rightly says that the Government recognise the importance of parliamentary scrutiny. That is welcome, but my question was very specific. The Secretary of State committed to the House’s having to make the decision about vaccine passports, and my question was whether the House would be asked to make that decision in advance and not retrospectively. Can the Minister confirm that the House will be asked to make that decision in advance of any move to implement vaccine passports, and that it will not be asked to approve it retrospectively?

[Maggie Throup]

Covid certification will be brought in under the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act 1984, which, as my right hon. Friend is aware, allows for emergency measures. We will do our utmost to bring forward the vote in Parliament before any enactment of the need for covid certification.

I return to the comments by my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton West. A consultation about making vaccination a condition of deployment in the NHS and wider social care closes on 22 October. We will consider all the responses in due course.

[Chris Green]

Does my hon. Friend share my constituents’ perplexity and confusion that the Government think it is suitable to have compulsory vaccination in care home settings—that has been their intention for many weeks—yet they are still confused or undecided as to whether that is equally relevant in the NHS? Carers are going from care settings into the NHS at the moment.

[Maggie Throup]

I reiterate that we are consulting at the moment for the NHS and other social care settings, and we are not moving the dates that we have already set for vaccination as a condition of deployment in care homes.

The hon. Members for Brent Central (Dawn Butler) and for Twickenham (Munira Wilson), my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (Mr Davis) and my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Mr Baker) raised the issue of unlawful convictions. I reassure them that since April 2020, the Crown Prosecution Service has reviewed all prosecutions under the Coronavirus Act, and it continues to do so. As such, the issue is primarily administrative, rather than one of the wrongful use of powers provided by the Act. That policy of review by the CPS has provided an effective safeguard. All incorrect charges made under the Act and reviewed by the CPS have been overturned, and updated guidance has been issued to the police.

[Dawn Butler]

I wonder whether the Minister will also consider the fines under the Public Health (Control of Disease) Act and whether there will be an appeal mechanism. Will she push for that, please?

[Maggie Throup]

I will take the hon. Lady’s comments on board. The progress that has been made with regard to unlawful convictions has been really helpful.

We have come so far in our fight, but we still have a long way to go. This pandemic is not yet over, and the steps we are proposing will give us the support we need to continue our fight against the virus while restoring yet more of our precious freedoms and the important experiences that we really love.

I commend the motion to the House.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

The question is Motion No. 4 as on the Order Paper. As many as are of that opinion, say Aye. [Hon. Members: “Aye.”] Of the contrary, No. [Interruption.] Could I have the Noes again?

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

No!

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I am afraid I fear the mood of the House is not to have a vote. The right hon. Gentleman would have to rustle up a few more people to really get the sense that we required a vote—

[Sir Desmond Swayne]

The just shall live by faith.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I am sure they will. The Ayes have it.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the temporary provisions of the Coronavirus Act 2020 should not yet expire.

Opposition Day

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Commons Chamber

[7th Allotted Day, First Part]

Supporting Small Business

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Commons Chamber

16:30

[Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)]

I beg to move,

That this House recognises the importance of British businesses to high streets and communities across the UK and the exceptional challenges they face due to the pandemic and rising costs; regrets the Government’s current plan to end all temporary support for businesses from April 2022; calls on the Government to support businesses by freezing the business rates multiplier and extending the threshold for small business rates relief from £15,000 rateable value to £25,000 in 2022-23; and further calls on the Chancellor of the Exchequer to update the House in person before January 2022 on his Department’s assessment of the impact that removing the temporary business support will have on small businesses.

Our high streets are not simply units of economic activity or just a place to buy the things we need. They are an important part of the tapestry of where we live, work and share our everyday lives. It is where people meet, eat, catch up over a cup of tea, bump into old acquaintances, receive a smile or a kind word. My first Saturday job as a teenager was working at a chess shop called the Chess and Bridge Centre on the Euston Road. People would come from miles around not just to buy, but to ask the advice of the owner and those of us who worked there. I learnt a lot. Our shops are as much about people as they are about products, and that is why they must and they will endure. That has been so many people’s experience during the course of the pandemic. As businesses have done everything asked of them—despite advice from Government often chopping and changing—they have bent over backwards to find new ways to serve their customers and to keep their own businesses afloat. We should all be thankful.

Some 2.8 million people are employed in retail in our country. As the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers points out, retail is one of the few sectors that regularly offers flexible opportunities for workers to balance their work alongside caring commitments they might have. Yet, incredibly, there is no Government industrial strategy for the retail sector to work with business to increase wages, skills and productivity. We have allowed an imbalance to be formed where bricks and mortar businesses are at a significant disadvantage to online retailers—online retailers whose warehouses typically attract considerably less business rates and, indeed, may not even pay corporation tax in our country.

One in seven shops remain shuttered after the lifting of pandemic restrictions, with the north of England seeing a higher proportion of closures. A British Retail Consortium survey concluded that business rates were a factor behind two in three shop store closures in the last two years. That cannot be allowed to continue. It should alarm this House that the Office for National Statistics business impacts survey data suggest that 330,000 business, responsible for over 800,000 jobs, are at risk of closure in just the next three months. Even a fraction of those losses will be deeply felt in all our communities.

[Ellie Reeves (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab)]

Some 99.8% of businesses in Lewisham are small and medium-sized enterprises. They are the lifeblood of our high streets and they support our local community, and many have suffered during the pandemic. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government’s plans to remove temporary support are an unfair cliff edge that could see many viable small businesses go under?

[Rachel Reeves]

I know my hon. Friend is a keen supporter of businesses, including the Kirkdale Bookshop on Sydenham’s high street and Billings butchers. She is a fine steward for the people of Lewisham West and Penge. I cannot offer expertise on the shopping behaviours of all hon. and right hon. Members—[Laughter.]—but some of our shopping behaviours changing does not mean that our high streets should not have a positive future. There is scope for fresh ideas and a renewed relationship with our high streets, but without easing the pressure of business rates for next year, many shops, including many carrying debts from the pandemic, just will not make it. That is why action is needed now.

[Dawn Butler (Brent Central) (Lab)]

Four hundred businesses in Brent are at risk. Our high streets have the most independent shops compared with any other high streets in the UK. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is so important that the Government reach out and help to support businesses?

[Rachel Reeves]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. She speaks about businesses in Brent, but that could go for so many other constituencies, high streets and town streets across our country. We want businesses to thrive and power our recovery and for every village, town and city across the UK to feel the benefits of a stronger and more resilient economy. Diluting ambition or postponing new thinking comes at a high price for businesses and jobs.

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

In Wales, the Welsh Labour Government have helped 70,000 businesses, which will not have to pay any rates until next year, whereas in England over the summer, the support was scaled back. Does my hon. Friend agree that there is a stark contrast between Labour in power supporting business and the Conservative party?

[Rachel Reeves]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The Labour Government in Wales ensured that there would be no business rates at all for the retail and hospitality sectors in Wales for this financial year. That is in stark contrast to the Conservative Government in Westminster, who pushed ahead with restarting business rate bills in June this year.

What is decided in this place has huge implications for businesses, from the kitchen-table start-up to our high streets, industrial parks and commercial giants known across the world. That is one of the reasons it is so worrying that, at this crucial time, the Prime Minister and the Chancellor concocted a new jobs tax to arrive in the spring. Despite all their election promises to cut national insurance contributions, they are actually raising them against the strong advice of businesses and trade unions.

The Conservative Government’s actions will make each new recruit more expensive and increase the costs to business. The decision to saddle employers and workers with the jobs tax takes money out of people’s pockets when our economic recovery is not yet established or secure and only adds to the pressure on businesses after a testing year and a half. When all other costs are going up—the costs of energy and of supplies—these tax rises are only hitting them harder.

[Alex Sobel (Leeds North West) (Lab/Co-op)]

My hon. Friend is making an excellent speech. Does she agree that the tourism and hospitality industry has particularly suffered over this period and has had its support taken away? Many travel agents are land-based businesses that do not have the demand coming back because people are still unable to go on holiday. Do they not need additional support, such as a business rates cut and a reversal of the additional tax on them, because they cannot afford to employ people any more?

[Rachel Reeves]

I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention and I know that he is a staunch supporter of businesses in Headingley, Otley and across his Leeds North West constituency. The Government should not break their promises to voters—that should be a given—and he is right to mention the tourism sector, which is so important to so many of our constituencies, whether we represent cities, towns or villages. That is why the decisions of the Labour Government in Wales to support the retail and hospitality sector during this difficult time were so welcomed by businesses in Wales.

[Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)]

One of the ways that the difference is being felt by people living here in England is through increased levels of debt, which is why I find it so remarkable that the Money and Pensions Service is looking to reduce the funding for face-to-face debt consultations at a time when, because of the lack of support in the economy, people find themselves going further and further into debt. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Money and Pensions Service should look at that again?

[Rachel Reeves]

My hon. Friend is right to make that point. I have had constituents raise concerns about cuts to money advice, for example, through StepChange, the charity based in Leeds. This is linked to the fact that a lot of the funding comes from banks and, due to the formulas set by Government, the funding that goes into debt advice charities is falling at a time when inflation is going up and there is a risk that interest rates might go up, and all the rest of it. She is right, and I hope that Ministers have heard those concerns, which I expect will be echoed by Members across the House.

In November 2019, just weeks before the general election, the Prime Minister told the CBI conference that

“to make sure that the businesses of this country can continue to flourish I am announcing today a package of measures cutting business rates further…particularly for SMEs to help…stimulate the high street.”

Labour welcomed the Government’s review of business rates, which was formally launched 15 months ago, four months into the pandemic. They were right to make the decision to start the review. Businesses, even during those difficult times, found the time to make submissions, and they did so in good faith. The Government promised

“final conclusions in Spring 2021”,

so they are already overdue, and now there is news that the review may be pushed even further into the long grass.

[Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

rose—

[Rachel Reeves]

Perhaps the hon. Gentleman can give us an indication of when the review might finally be published.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I am afraid I cannot, but I am interested in whether the hon. Lady will come on to her own proposals for reforming business rates, which she announced at her party conference. I welcome at least a first stab at some reform, but I have a question. She would use the digital services tax, but as I understand it, the multinational agreement on the issue means that that tax will no longer be allowed—it has to be scrapped as part of the corporation tax deal. How does she propose a sixfold increase to a tax that cannot exist?

[Rachel Reeves]

I will come on to those points. It is great that Conservative Members are asking for advice, because we have plenty about how to level the playing field in taxes for businesses. I will come on to points about the global minimum rate of corporation tax, because that is how we can help to level the playing field.

The Chancellor must now complete the review and make the changes that the Government have promised. It would be quite astonishing if the Treasury had time to cost up the Prime Minister’s vanity yacht, yet no time to fulfil its pledge on something as important as reforming business rates.

The Minister may argue that everything has changed because of the pandemic. He would be right: everything has changed, including for businesses. The unfairness in the system has been enlarged, not narrowed, during the past year and a half. Almost 180,000 retail jobs were lost in 2020, according to the Centre for Retail Research, while some online retail profits have soared.

Fundamentally reforming business rates is more important now than ever before. I am sure that Members on both sides of the House would welcome confirmation from the Minister that the Government will take the radical action required, which is exactly what businesses are urging them to do in next week’s Budget.

Last week, 42 trade bodies wrote to the Chancellor making clear their view that

“in their current form, our business rates system is uncompetitive…and unfair.”

The British Chambers of Commerce are clear that tinkering around the edges will not do. The British Retail Consortium warns:

“Sky high business rates are closing stores up and down the country and preventing new ones from opening.”

[Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that our retail centres face a very serious situation? Even thriving retail centres in towns such as Reading, which has the major retail centre for central southern England, are being affected. In our borough, 1,200 small businesses are currently receiving business rates support, which is unheard of. I encourage my hon. Friend to address that point. Does she agree that it is a serious issue?

[Rachel Reeves]

I thank my hon. Friend for speaking up for businesses in Reading that are struggling because of the unfair system of business rates. I expect that, like many other businesses up and down the country, they talk about the unlevel playing field and the unfair competition whereby some businesses pay their business rates—and corporation tax, if they make enough money—but their main competitors are paying a lower level of corporation tax because they have no shop fronts and might not even be registered for corporation tax in this country. That is not right for businesses in Reading, and it is not right for businesses in any of our constituencies.

As the Federation of Small Businesses points out, unlike other forms of business taxation, business rates are a tax that

“hits firms before they’ve even made a pound in turnover”,

let alone in profit. The CBI says that business rates have

“literally become a tax on investment.”

The Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers explains that the crucial jobs and services provided to our local communities are under threat.

In each of the last four Conservative Party manifestos, there has been a promise of action on business rates. How many businesses and shops have needlessly closed as a result of the dither and delay in delivering on those promises? In 2011, the Conservative Government brought in Mary Portas to work on ideas to transform the fortunes of the great British high street. Her frustration with Ministers a decade on cannot be dismissed. She has said:

“It’s shameful that they have still not readjusted their thinking on how Amazon and the delivery giants should be paying equivalent rates of tax online…Their slowness in understanding, their tardiness, is ridiculous."

We agree. Labour is unapologetically pro-worker and unapologetically pro-business. We believe in helping businesses large and small, start-ups and the spin-offs from our universities, all of which can provide exciting new growth for the future. In the everyday economy, the fate of shops on our high street matters.

If the Conservative Government will not make these reforms, the next Labour Government will—and more. My core principles are to tax fairly, spend wisely, and grow the economy. That is why Labour will scrap business rates as we know them. We need a much fairer system. Labour will incentivise investment, promote entrepreneurship and efficiency, reward businesses that move into empty premises, and help our high streets to thrive again. We will ease the burden on the bricks-and-mortar businesses, and especially on the smaller businesses. Our party is on the side of entrepreneurs and the communities who want to do something different—who want to start a business and get on in life.

If Labour were in government today, we would freeze business rates next year and extend small business rate relief. We would pay for easing that burden on businesses by raising the UK digital services tax. We would ensure that online companies, including Amazon, which have thrived during this pandemic and made bigger profits than ever were paying their fair share too. But we know that more fundamental reform is needed beyond just one year, and so, in government, Labour would scrap business rates entirely and replace them with a fairer system fit for the 21st century.

We welcome the backing of the G20 and the OECD for a global minimum rate of corporation tax for multinationals. Labour supports its being set at the 21% originally proposed by President Biden and US Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen, which would have done more to level the playing field between online giants and retail stores and small businesses; but even at 15%, as watered down by the British Chancellor, the global minimum rate of corporation tax will bring in substantial amounts of money that could be used to ease the burden of property taxation on our high streets and for our small and start-up businesses. That is a model of fair business taxation, and that is what a Labour Government will do.

Today’s Opposition day debate on business rates is important for businesses and for our country’s economic recovery. It is about so much more than rates and multipliers: it is about business growth and opportunities in all the places that we are sent here to represent. It is about what we as a country buy, make and sell.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

I thank the hon. Lady for giving way again. She is being very generous. If I heard her correctly, she is going to scrap business rates in the next Parliament. Business rates bring in about £30 billion a year. How will she make up that shortfall? What will be the replacement system to bring in that £30 billion a year?

[Rachel Reeves]

The Chancellor would have a lot more money to play with if he had gone ahead with President Biden’s proposals for a 21% global minimum rate of corporation tax. There are choices in politics, and this Chancellor chose to water down the 21% proposals to 15%. As a result, he has lost £5 billion or £7 billion. We would have used that money to reduce—[Interruption.] We will use that money to reduce the burden of business taxation, and I hope that the Ministers will stand up today and say that they will use the global minimum rate of corporation tax to ease the burden on high streets and small businesses. That is the choice that a Labour Government will make, and we will hear shortly whether it is the choice that this Government will make. [Interruption.] You are not doing anything! The Minister says that we are still short of money, but this Government made the choice to water down proposals that would have brought in £15 billion a year. They made that choice because they are not interested in levelling the playing field on taxes.

In four manifestos now, the Conservatives have said that they would ease the burden of business rates. If the Government want advice ahead of the Budget, they can look at the speech that I wrote for our party conference in which I set out what Labour would do. Instead, they propose to kick this into the long grass and to do nothing to help our high streets and our small businesses. A Labour Government would ease the burden on our businesses and help to create a level playing field with a system of property taxation that asks the retail giants with warehouses and out-of-town centres to pay a bit more, to ease the burden on our small businesses and high streets. That is the right thing to do.

The Budget should be about recovery. The cost to businesses has been going up, supply chains have been disrupted and costs are spiralling as a result of the Government’s unwillingness to invest in gas storage and the skills of British workers or to take any meaningful action to deal with the chaos that has been created. What is the answer from Ministers? A jobs tax and an increase in business rates next spring. Our high streets have been paying a high price for Government inaction for too long. The case for fundamental reform has been made by businesses, by trade unions and by Labour. This is now about the Government’s priorities and their political will. Will they ask more of those online giants, or will they leave the burden of business taxation as it is today, falling on our high street businesses and small businesses? Those are the choices that the Government can and must make in the Budget. We have set out the choices that we would make. It is now time for the Government to act on business rates. Those choices will be available next week, and I hope that the Government will take them.

16:51

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lee Rowley)]

I am grateful to the Opposition for using today to raise such an important matter for Members on both sides of the House, and I welcome this opportunity to debate it. In that spirit, let us start with where we can agree.

We absolutely agree that British businesses are hugely important to our high streets and communities across the United Kingdom. I have seen this in my first few weeks as the Minister for industry, speaking to and visiting businesses and business representatives up and down the country. I have seen it over my four years as a Member of Parliament, as all other Members will have done, discussing how small businesses can thrive and how, although high streets are changing, they remain the linchpin of our local communities. More broadly, I have seen it as the son of a sole trader who spent 40 years in business in his local community. To take the shadow Chancellor’s point about first jobs, I have also seen it as somebody who had a job on the high street in Chesterfield with an estate agent and who spent his dinner hours stocking a newsagent’s so that they could continue to trade.

Secondly, we can agree that we have been through an exceptionally difficult time. The pandemic impacted every single one of us at an extraordinary time of our lives, necessitating changes in the way we live, work and play. None of us had anticipated any of this prior to March 2020.

[Mike Amesbury (Weaver Vale) (Lab)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Lee Rowley]

If the hon. Gentleman does not mind, let us just work out where we agree before we start talking about where we might not do so.

We did all this together as a nation and as communities, because we knew how important it was to get our society through these dark times. We can also agree that businesses faced particularly acute challenges. The challenge of 2020 and early 2021 was unprecedented for businesses. They had to close for periods, they were unable to trade in some instances, they had to change the ways in which they did business very quickly and then they returned to work. I am sure that everyone in the House—I know that the shadow Chancellor shares this view—has been humbled, as I have been, by the resilience of workers and entrepreneurs to keep their businesses going. They are the ones who have been straining every sinew on construction sites, serving us in shops and delivering vital goods. They have demonstrated an incredible level of resolve that we have never seen in peacetime, ingenuity and flexibility that we have never dreamed of and resilience that should make us all proud.

More broadly, we can also agree that business taxation requires review. That is why the Chancellor announced a review of business rates; it is why we have consulted on numerous changes to the existing scheme, although this was not acknowledged by the Opposition; and it is why the Valuation Office Agency is undertaking the latest revaluation, which will take place in 2023.

[Mike Amesbury]

I am sure it has not escaped the Minister’s attention that the Government have been in power for 11 years. This is not only about the coronavirus emergency. Businesses in my community, in Manor Park and Runcorn Shopping City, are desperate to move forward. Business rates are a broken system. Stop the dither and delay and get on with it—not another review but solid reform based on income going through the door. That is fair.

[Lee Rowley]

We have seen the Government make many changes over the past decade that have improved business conditions in this country and allowed businesses to continue to progress, and we will continue to do that. I know that ministerial colleagues will come forward with proposals in due course.

On the motion before us and the shadow Chancellor’s speech, it would be churlish not to recognise the extraordinary amount of support that the Government have already provided to business. Even as someone who prefers to focus on outputs and achievements in our country, I accept that the past 18 months were necessarily about inputs and keeping businesses going until they could properly trade again. To do that, we offered hundreds of billions of pounds of support from the taxpayer to provide one of the world’s most generous and comprehensive economic responses to the pandemic.

We enabled 1.3 million employers across the UK to furlough up to 11.5 million jobs. There were 1.6 million Government-backed loans, representing more than £79 billion of support. We paid out almost £14 billion in support to around 5 million self-employed people. We cut VAT for the hospitality and tourism sector. We waived billions of pounds of business rates for long periods at the height of the pandemic. And we brought in a range of regulatory easements to help businesses.

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

I ask for the Minister’s advice. One of the most frustrating things about business rates is when a business asks for some flexibility and it is difficult to speak to the right person. A number of businesses in my constituency want some flexibility on their business rates. They go to the council, but the council only collects the tax. They go to the valuation office, which only does the valuation. There is no system to appeal against business rates at the moment. Will the Minister address that in his speech?

[Lee Rowley]

I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concerns, and I acknowledge the challenge. There is always a balance to be struck. This level of detail is perhaps slightly away from the motion, but I would be happy to discuss it separately.

We should not forget all the support that we have provided over such a sustained period, and we should not strip this debate of that context. Now our task is to make sure that businesses, large and small, have the opportunity, the talent and the ability to unleash their full potential, which is where I am afraid I will have to diverge again from the Opposition and their remarks today.

The extraordinary circumstances of the pandemic required an extraordinary response from the Government, and we delivered that extraordinary response, but it did not come without cost. Whether we like it or not, providing such a comprehensive and decisive economic response has dramatically increased public borrowing. Government debt has exceeded the size of the UK economy for the first time in more than 50 years. It was an appropriate and proportionate strategy, when we were faced with a real and immediate crisis, to support businesses and allow them to ready themselves for when the recovery came, but over the medium term it is clearly not sustainable to continue borrowing at these levels.

[Emma Hardy]

rose—

[Lee Rowley]

I hope the hon. Lady will be able to answer that point.

[Emma Hardy]

Actually, I was hoping to put to the Minister the same question that I put to my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) on the issue of debt and debt advice.

The Money and Pensions Service is changing the system that it operates by moving towards having call centres rather than having as many face-to-face appointments for people who are struggling with debt. This has been an incredibly difficult year and people are finding themselves in higher levels of debt, so will the Minister comment on the support that is available to help people who are struggling right now? Will he be speaking to the Money and Pensions Service about its decision to move towards remote consultations rather than face-to-face consultations?

[Lee Rowley]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for her contribution, and I know she has a clear interest in this. I fear it is going slightly away from the discussion we are having, but I am happy to have discussions with her separately. I know that my colleagues will continually communicate with and consult people in this important policy area.

As I was saying, whether we like it or not there has been a large change in public borrowing. When we were faced with the crisis, we took action. But as the pandemic starts to subside, it is vital that we make moves to return to a position of strong and sustainable finances. Ultimately—this is what the Labour party never wants to acknowledge, and it can state that it is unapologetically pro-business as much as it wishes—there can be no strength for businesses in a country where a Government have lost control of the public finances. The shadow Chancellor invited us to look at her speech at last week’s Labour party conference, which I did; she made much of the “everyday economy”. Businesses in the everyday economy will never be able to thrive long term on policies that have no regard to the macroeconomic situation or no clear way of being funded. Neither before nor in today’s debate has the Labour party provided any meaningful explanation of how it will pay for abolishing business rates.

[Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

rose—

[Lee Rowley]

I am sorry, but I am going to make progress.

Entrepreneurs who take difficult decisions and face challenges every day on how to make their businesses grow will never fully succeed in a country that refuses to acknowledge that similar national choices are ultimately required. Back during the pandemic, we were clear that support was necessary, but we were also clear that it would be temporary. Even so, we have helped and we continue to help businesses during this recovery period.

We have been open for business for months now but we continue to help businesses recover: business rates relief will continue well into 2022, which is even acknowledged in the motion, meaning that eligible businesses will not have paid rates at all for 15 months and will have had a significantly reduced rate for a further nine months; there has been more than £2 billion of discretionary business grant funding to local authorities, including a top-up of nearly half a billion pounds, which is open until March 2022; we have had the recovery loan scheme, which allows businesses in the UK to continue to benefit from Government-backed finance until the end of the year; we have our pay as you grow scheme, which gives bounce back loan borrowers the flexibility to tailor repayments; and we have the lower rate of VAT, the £600 million start-up loans fund, the super deduction and an extension of the commercial lease evictions moratorium.

Just as they do naturally, British businesses are getting back on their feet and doing what they do best. We know that this is a difficult time and has been an extraordinarily difficult time, but I pay tribute to businesses for being able to get going again. A strong growth story is being shown by the level of unemployment, which has fallen for six months in a row and is now below 5%— lower than the levels in France, America, Canada, Italy and Spain; one of the fastest recoveries of any major economy in the world; business confidence being up; and job vacancies growing for eight consecutive months and at a record high.

The Labour party will never admit this, but the UK is a great place to do business. We have some of the lowest corporation taxes in the G20, the kind of lean regulation that puts us in the global top 10 for the ease of doing business and a highly skilled workforce. Next year, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will publish an enterprise strategy, which will set out how we want to revive Britain’s spirit of enterprise and help more people start and scale a business.

[Ben Lake (Ceredigion) (PC)]

The Minister mentions the reduced rate of VAT, which has been welcomed by a number of businesses in my constituency. May I invite him to comment on whether the Government have considered an extension to that? Many businesses in my constituency have informed me that that reduced rate has allowed them to invest in not only their businesses, but their employees’ wages—I am sure that is something we can agree on.

[Lee Rowley]

The hon. Gentleman is tempting me to make policy in an Opposition day debate, but I will step back from that, given that it is well above my pay scale.

Let me come back to the point about the UK being a good place to do business. It is easy to see why the UK is consistently home to one of the largest and most resilient economies in the world. All of this underlines precisely why the UK has long been a great place to do business and will continue to be so. That is why we are seeing so much excitement from the rest of the world, with investors here right now at the global investment summit. That shows just how attracted companies are to the business-friendly environment that we have.

The Government’s track record shows that we have been there for small and bigger businesses since the start of the pandemic; that we are now here to support them through the recovery; and that we will continue to create the conditions that will allow them to grow, thrive and innovate in future, as part of a dynamic, flexible market economy that supports private enterprise, backs entrepreneurs and recognises the importance of wealth creators in local communities.

[Several hon. Members rose—]

[Lee Rowley]

The first building block for doing that—Labour Members should listen, given that they are all so keen to intervene—is to ensure that we have a strong and sustainable economy, built on strong and sustainable public finances and with policies that are funded. By working together, we can then continue to ensure that Britain is the best place in the world to do business, both now and in future.

17:05

[Peter Grant (Glenrothes) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to contribute to this debate. I commend the Labour Front-Bench team for bringing it to the House and the shadow Chancellor, the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), for her well-informed and often thought-provoking speech. As a lot of Back Benchers wish to contribute to the debate and much of the substance of the motion concerns devolved matters, I shall not detain the House for too long.

It is important that we recognise the fundamental part played by small businesses in our economy—the economy of the United Kingdom and all its constituent nations. I am reminded that many years ago my good friend Alasdair Morgan, who served with distinction in this place and in the national Parliament of Scotland, addressed a meeting about economic regeneration and pointed out that there were twice as many small businesses in his constituency as there were unemployed people. This was in the days when the unemployment figures were not fiddled, so the numbers were a lot higher than they are just now. Alasdair pointed out that if every small business could be helped to take on less than half a full-time employee, we could abolish unemployment. Instead of helping small businesses to increase their workforce, though, we are far too often faced with a Government who take steps that seem deliberately designed to make it harder for small businesses to take on additional employees.

Small businesses face structural problems that bigger businesses do not. Although we hear a lot of rhetoric from the Government about supporting small businesses, a lot of the specific difficulties that they face seem to get ignored. I confess that I never appreciated one such difficulty until several businesses in my constituency contacted me independently of each other. What they all had in common was that they had been taken to the cleaners by dodgy suppliers, because the suppliers knew that even a small business that is not much bigger than a single-person operation is regarded as a business and so has no consumer protection. Tech companies and telephone supplies companies—which tended to be the worst, by the way—understood that they could fleece small businesses and get away with it, whereas if they tried the same tactics with individuals, the consumer protection laws, although not ideal, would protect those individuals from being too badly damaged. A couple of long-established small businesses in my constituency were brought very close to closure purely for that reason. The Government might want to look into that.

Business-to-business enterprise and business-to-business commerce tends to operate on the basis that it is between two equal partners, but when a two-person or three-person operation deals with a multinational corporation with a turnover of billions, that is not an equal contest or an equal deal. Perhaps, in the same way as we need to protect individual citizens from being taken advantage of by bigger suppliers or businesses, we need to do more to give smaller businesses some kind of consumer protection.

Smaller businesses are much worse affected when there is a recruitment crisis, as there is just now. The Government blame covid, but everybody knows that Brexit is as much to blame as covid. If a company has a workforce of 100 and loses two or three people, it still has 97% of its operation; if a company has a workforce of three and loses a person, that can make the entire business unsustainable and unviable. The clear message that we get from small businesses and organisations such as the Federation of Small Businesses is that the labour shortages we see in key sectors of the economy just now have not yet been adequately addressed. I am not convinced that the Government have even adequately recognised them.

It is all very well to say, “Isn’t it great to have all these vacancies?” but if the people who are looking for work do not have the skills that are needed for those vacancies, or if there are reasons why they cannot take on the work in those jobs, it is quite possible to have very high vacancy levels. Businesses are struggling because they cannot fill those vacancies, and, at the same time, a lot of people are struggling because they cannot get a job that fits with their commitments or responsibilities outside the workplace.

Much of the debate so far has focused on the retail sector, partly because the traditional picture of the high street is one where there is a lot of retail activity, most of it generated by small independent retailers. That is a great thing to have in a town, but how many of us could walk down any high street in our constituency today and see more than half of the existing businesses independently owned and run, never mind locally owned and run?

There has been a huge shift in ownership in the retail sector, as there has been elsewhere. The sad thing is that, when times get tough, a big business, which has no soul in the community, is likely to clear out, whereas the smaller business, locally grown and locally based, is much more likely to dig in and to hang on in there for as long as it possibly can. That is why we will often find that, when things get difficult in the retail sector, the small locally owned shops will try to stay open for as long as they can, whereas the big chains will sacrifice 100, 200 or even 300 properties and the jobs that go with them at the stroke of a pen without a thought to the devastation that they are leaving behind.

I have a particular situation in Glenrothes. To the best of my knowledge, it is the only town in the United Kingdom where the high street is shut at night. A stroke of genius by the then Conservative Government in the 1990s when the development corporation was being wound up was that they sold what the Americans would call a shopping mall to private owners, and it has been struggling ever since. We do not have a night-time economy because the high street is shut. People cannot get in. If they are in and the doors are locked, they cannot get back out.

In spite of that, there are still some remarkable success stories in the Kingdom shopping centre in Glenrothes. I was delighted to pay a visit to Jessop Jewellers to congratulate the owner on their 50th anniversary in the one premises in the town. I can highly recommend their products as well by the way, although I may have made a mistake by telling the owner that I am now only a few years away from my ruby wedding, so I think she may be going to contact Mrs Grant about that in the not too distant future.

A lot of the focus today has been on non-domestic rates. Clearly, because that is devolved, the specific way in which the rates system operates in England does not apply in Scotland. For a number of years, the Scottish Government have had the most generous and most supportive non-domestic rates scheme anywhere in the United Kingdom. We had small business support, whereby small businesses did not pay any rates at all for years, before it was introduced in other parts of the United Kingdom. We still have greater support for our small businesses than any other part of the United Kingdom.

My message to the Government, and indeed to the Opposition should they be in a position to move into government in the near future, is to continue to support small businesses in England, whether through supporting the domestic rates scheme or something else. That then generates additional funding through Barnett consequentials for the devolved Parliaments in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and allows those Parliaments to support our small businesses at the same time.

We could quite easily have filled this Chamber with a debate that would have run for four or five days if we had invited every Member of Parliament to come in and describe the exact situation for businesses in their constituency. I know that there have been a number of contributions along those lines from Labour Back Benchers already today, but the simple fact is that the party that used to be the party of small business is not recognised as that any more, certainly not by small businesses themselves. I suspect that, in their heart of hearts, it is not recognised as a party of small business by its own members and its own voters. It has lost sight of the part that small businesses have played in creating the economy that we have just now. It has lost sight of the fact that, without small businesses, we cannot have a successful and sustainable economy. [Laughter.] I can hear the laughter from the Conservative Back Benchers—that sums up their attitude. It is the attitude that a lot of small businesses feel they have received from this Government over the past two or three years—[Interruption.]

[Kevin Hollinrake]

As my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle (Huw Merriman) has just said, it was not laughter; it was astonishment. I have been in business for 30 years. Not every businessperson I meet votes Conservative, but the vast majority do, and I have not heard anybody say what the hon. Member for Glenrothes (Peter Grant) has just said—that the Conservative party is no longer the party of small business. Not only that, but there is huge support for what this Government have done over the last 18 months in supporting those businesses through the worst crisis to hit business in the last 100 years.

[Peter Grant]

If the hon. Member does not understand what the Federation of Small Businesses thinks about his Government tearing up their manifesto promise and increasing the burden of national insurance, if he does not understand what small businesses are saying about the impact that Brexit has had on them, if he does not understand that the energy crisis that the United Kingdom still faces, with massively increasing energy costs that then increase costs for every single business on these islands, and if Conservative Members do not understand that all those things are purely the result of their party’s policies, each and every one of which is devastating for the wellbeing of small business, then we have to wonder why on earth they are still in Government.

[Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con)]

Perhaps we could mention one example of this Government helping small business: the requirement for outsourcing agencies, such as National Highways and Network Rail, to put a third of all their contracts into the hands of small businesses. Indeed, Network Rail is up to that third already. Is that not a tangible example of this Government doing something to support small businesses?

[Peter Grant]

Well, it was not quite the way that things were done with all the personal protective equipment contracts and other covid contracts. Of course, there is a better way to do it than that. Rather than telling the health service that a fraction of all its privatised contracts have to go to small businesses, why not say to the health service, “Don’t privatise it. Do it yourself.”? The public would get a better, cheaper and more efficient service, which is exactly what we are seeing with the NHS in Scotland since the SNP banned the privatisation of our services all together.

If the Conservatives want to see an example of how to support small businesses, they do not need to look beyond these islands. They need to look beyond this Chamber, beyond this city and beyond this country to some of the other countries that are supposed to be equal partners in this Union. If they do, they will see examples of Governments—I commend also some of the Welsh Government initiatives mentioned earlier—who do not just talk the talk on supporting small business, but who walk the walk as well. That might be something to do with the fact that those Governments are not run by parties whose coffers are swollen to obscene degrees by people who have made their money running big businesses—very often, big businesses that ran small businesses into the ground.

The linkage between the impact of non-domestic rates and other taxes and Government policies on small businesses is clearly complex, so it is not possible to say that simply changing the non-domestic rates scheme on its own will fix the problem. I, for one, do not like the idea of using an imaginary property valuation as a significant feature in deciding somebody’s tax bill, whether it is an individual’s council tax or a business’s non-domestic rates burden. The tax base is far too narrow on far too many businesses. We are taxing things that might have been the right things to tax 500 years ago, but which are not the right things to tax now.

Most importantly, as was mentioned by the shadow Chancellor, the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), we have to move to a situation where the tax is due and is paid where the profits are made. We cannot have companies that make substantial profits on the hard work, diligence and expertise of people in the United Kingdom, but where all the profits are magicked away to some offshore tax haven so that no tax is ever paid. The Government have it in their hands to change that. They need to move a lot quicker to do that. Doing so would not only help to plug the gap in the public finances, but would give small businesses a chance to compete on fair and equal terms with the bigger competitors. I can say, for a lot of the small businesses in my constituency, let them compete on equal terms with the big boys; they will take them on and, as often as not, they will beat them, and they will make sure that profits from that success are reinvested in their local communities.

As with so many other things that we debate in this Chamber, I have indicated the successes that the Government of Scotland have had with the powers they have. Others have referred to some of the successful initiatives that the Government of Wales have introduced with the limited powers that they have. With increased powers for those devolved Parliaments will come increased success and increased wellbeing for the citizens of those nations. The only way that small businesses in Scotland will have a long-term, secure and profitable future is when the decisions that affect them are taken by a Government who are accountable to the people of Scotland and to no one else.

17:19

[Huw Merriman (Bexhill and Battle) (Con)]

It is an absolute pleasure to contribute to this debate. I thank the shadow Chancellor for laying this motion, which gives us an opportunity to talk about business and the support that we have for business in our communities. I will certainly be doing so, as well as speaking to the reform of business rates, which I have had a long interest in since coming here in 2015.

Before I do so, let me respond to the hon. Member for Glenrothes (Peter Grant). I had the pleasure of being up in Edinburgh for a few days over the weekend, and it was very sad to see that not just Jenners on Princes Street but shop after shop had closed. In my view, that demonstrates that across the UK changing trends are causing people to shop differently, which is having a huge impact on our high streets. It is down to this Government, and indeed all Administrations, to support their high streets. That does not just mean expecting the shopping of the past to return, because it will not, but looking at how we can turn these units back into retail, which gives more footfall within the cities and towns and helps, not least, those who are perhaps older and do not wish to live as far out. Those boarded-up shops may be the responsibility of the changing trends or may actually have something to do with the hon. Gentleman’s own Administration as well.

[John Lamont (Berwickshire, Roxburgh and Selkirk) (Con)]

I am very pleased that my hon. Friend enjoyed his trip to Scotland. Many businesses in my constituency are facing the challenges imposed by the Scottish Government because of their policy on business rates, but does he agree that the particular challenge they are facing is the continued uncertainty around another independence referendum, which is putting huge pressure on their plans and their economic prospects?

[Huw Merriman]

I do agree. Interestingly, the CBI has talked about the challenge on business rates because every three or five years there is a revaluation and business does not have the certainty it needs. I think in Hackney there was a change of about 46%. The CBI recognised that the uncertainty of this type of big-shock fiscal events can absolutely impact business’s ability to plan and invest in the future. A referendum on the whole future as to whether Scotland will be part of the UK, its biggest trading partner, must surely have some impact.

[Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP)]

On the hon. Gentleman’s point about Princes Street, did he manage to make it along to the new, shiny, marvellous St James Quarter, where a number of the businesses he talked about relocated to? He is making a point in isolation about one street in the country, not the entire nation, and it is possibly unwise to draw too many conclusions from one street.

[Huw Merriman]

The hon. Member makes a fair point, because two out of four businesses have relocated to St James Quarter, with the interestingly shaped top that is called things that I would not repeat in this Chamber, but Jenners, a classic department store that is not relocating, is a good example of a casualty of changing trends.

It would be absolutely churlish not to recognise what this Government have done over the past 18 months. I represent a constituency in Sussex that is absolutely reliant in employment terms on small businesses in leisure, tourism and retail. The constituency I represent has businesses that were among the 750,000 that were given a business rate holiday. Furlough is not just keeping the employees going but making sure that they are returning back to the businesses. Some 15,300 workers in my constituency, about a third, were reliant on furlough to keep them going. When I went round to visit those businesses last summer—it had been very difficult for us to meet, but the changes in the summer allowed us to do that—they were absolutely of the view that had it not been for the Government’s support, their businesses would have shut down and their employees would have been made redundant. Everything that I am about to say has to be put in the context of the fact that this Government have absolutely supported business. I absolutely refute the point that the Conservative party is no longer the party of business; it absolutely is and it will always have the champions of business on these Benches.

In the six years since I have been a Member of this place, I have always championed the need to reform business rates. If we look across the G7, we see that the UK has the largest property taxes. They are a tax on jobs and a tax on business, and I would like to see them reformed. Over those years, we have had a number of reviews, and we are waiting on one at the moment. I would dearly like to see business rates replaced. The CBI is right when it says that business rates are a tax on business and jobs and lead to uncertainty. I see the shadow Chancellor, the hon. Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) nodding her head.

What is also important is that I stand for fiscal responsibility. Something has to come in place of business rates that brings in the exact same yield. With respect to the shadow Chancellor, when she was pushed by my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) on how the £20 billion-plus that business rates bring in as revenue would be replaced, she was only able to give a figure of about £7 billion. That leads to a big deficit. That means there would either have to be public spending cuts to make up for the shortfall, or we would have to go into further debt, which is no good for business or the individual.

[David Johnston (Wantage) (Con)]

My hon. Friend makes the point about the shortfall if we get rid of business rates. Those on the Opposition Benches also talk about the national insurance rise, which is raising £36 billion to go into the health service and social care. Is he as unclear as I am on how they would replace that money, as well?

[Huw Merriman]

Yes, I am. I do not want to go too off-piste in terms of the subject of this debate, but I certainly recall that when the Labour party rightly injected funds into the NHS back in 2001, it also agreed that national insurance was the best way to fund it. I have heard it said that wages are not growing at the same rate now as they were then. Actually, if we take a look back, we find that they are growing faster now, which seems to refute that argument.

When it comes to the business of running Government, we have to take these serious decisions and make sure that we do not continue to see this country going ever further into debt. When it comes to business rate replacement, which I would advocate, we need to look at something that brings in the same revenue, and I am left with the view I had previously: we can look at a tax on turnover or sales, but ultimately the simplest way of dealing with it is looking at the VAT system. We all know full well that business rates end up getting channelled all the way through to the individual consumer in any event, but some consumers do not have to pay, particularly with the online side of things, because business rates are not levied there as much as they perhaps are on the high street.

We should level with the public and say, “At the moment, business rates are coming on to your bills, but they are a tax on jobs.” If we were to put the tax instead on VAT or other forms, it would be a lot more transparent, a lot fairer and, most of all, it would make it economically viable for businesses to expand their space and employ more people. If we did that, we would level with the British public and see further investment from business. I do not agree with the motion, although I agree with the Opposition for bringing it forward. It is great that we are debating the ideas, and I welcome that from those on the shadow Front Bench, but I gently prod that ultimately we have to see a payment of like for like.

17:28

[Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)]

Both the Minister and the hon. Member for Bexhill and Battle (Huw Merriman) have said that they really want to do something about business rates, and they have—[Interruption.] I know the hon. Member said he wanted to do it. They are challenging us to come up with a way of replacing the revenue, but they cannot come up with one themselves. I want to know what their plan is as an alternative. Perhaps the Minister or his colleague, depending on who is winding up the debate, will tell us the Government’s plan for doing so. As the shadow Chancellor, my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) said, this has been going on for a very long time. The Government have been talking about reviewing business rates for a very long time.

I ran a business for many years. Twenty years ago, I took a lease out on a commercial premises, and I was staggered by how much the business rates were. In fact, many in this Chamber pay business rates on their constituency premises. I had to pay for that, whether or not I had any income coming in the door. That fixed cost of doing business is the challenge. We face inequity in the system of business taxation, which is why it is so out of date and needs to be replaced when set against the competition from the online giants, as my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West rightly said earlier.

More than 450 businesses in the borough of Sefton alone face going out of business as a result of problems that have been exacerbated during the covid crisis. They need action on business rates for the longer term, not just now. They need the kind of support that the Welsh Government are giving, as we have heard, to be extended by the Government now. They need longer-term reform and, in the end, the scrapping of the business rates system if they are to thrive.

The Minister made much of international comparisons. I wanted to intervene on him; it is a shame he did not let me. He named a number of countries that have significantly lower business property taxes than this country, so any business in this country that wants to compete with them faces an immediate competitive disadvantage. In Germany, business property taxes are four times lower than they are in this country. For our manufacturers to compete with that is very difficult, so they face a significant disadvantage.

On the question of how that would be paid for, I ask the Minister how other countries can raise business taxes with much lower property taxes. What can we learn from them? We are so far behind because we have the highest business taxes of any major country in the world, according to the OECD. That has to be addressed.

It is absolutely right that my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West has brought this debate forward today, especially as businesses face huge debts as a result of covid. The last thing they need is a business rates bill dropping through their door and adding to that pressure. I will give a couple of constituency examples. MSP is in the events and creative sector and is owned by my constituent Lisa Richards, who makes the point that she now has huge debts. The problem is that the support during covid was simply not enough to avoid those debts going up—it is a story being told again and again. Businesses such as MSP need ongoing support. I hope that we will hear something next week to deal with that in the immediate term, but they need longer-term support too, which is why the overhaul of business rates is such an important part of the picture. Unless they get that support, they will struggle to play their part in the recovery.

There are high street businesses such as Coulson Flooring, which is run by another constituent who has to pay his business rates whether he is making any money or not. It is a thriving business that was hit hard by covid, just like everybody else on the high street. He needs that longer-term support too. That is the case for all those 450-plus businesses in my borough alone and for businesses in all our constituencies up and down the country, so I am delighted that we are taking the issue forward as a party.

Frankly, to those Conservative Members who say that their party still has the mantle of the party of business, I say that I think every business in the country knows the Prime Minister’s attitude, which was summed up by one short four-letter word. That is a topic he has returned to again and again. They collectively need to take a close look at themselves, the behaviour of the man who leads them and his attitude towards business and towards supporting our entrepreneurs, our wealth creators and those people who provide employment for so many of our constituents.

It is essential that an alternative system is found. My hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West has come forward with some credible alternatives for an interim approach that uses an increase in the digital services tax as a windfall and, in the long term, looks at the international approach to corporation tax and an overhaul of that. To answer the question of how we replace the £30 billion that the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) mentioned, we have to work with the business community and the trade unions. We have to work in partnership to find alternatives that are workable in this country and internationally. That has to be the way forward.

At the moment, we have a curb on investment as a number of business groups have made clear. It is something that Mike Hawes of the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders has pointed out. He has said that the current arrangements are “overdue an overhaul” and that

“anyone wanting to invest in new equipment—especially green technologies”,

which are crucial to the car industry—

“sees their business rates rise”

which

“is a perverse disincentive to investment and productivity improvement”.

He puts it so well. It is true in manufacturing, and it is true in retail and in our high streets, which face competition from the out-of-town and online giants.

It is essential, if we are to recover for those high streets, businesses and communities, that we see this turned around. Such an approach has the support of the trade unions. With the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers, as the union representing shop workers, in exactly the same place as the shop owners, we potentially have a partnership. The only part of that partnership missing at the moment is for the Government to step up.

We have shown the way forward, and the CBI has shown the way forward. Tony Danker of the CBI has now said:

“More than half of business investment is subject to business rates; this unfair, uncompetitive system has become a tax on investment that simply isn’t fit for purpose.”

He has also said:

“The Labour Party should be applauded for grasping the nettle and putting forward a pro-growth, pro-investment package of reforms that will reflect our green ambitions, spur the economic recovery”.

That is the right way forward.

We have business looking at us and saying that we were the party that came out of the conference season—and this is the word of the Federation of Small Businesses, not mine—with a “pro-business” agenda and proposals that would help the economy, not the Conservatives. I want to see from the Chancellor next week some concrete details about the package the Minister talked about very nicely in his speech, otherwise it is our approach to which the business community is increasingly going to look. It is our approach that people will be voting on in the next general election, and unless this Government act, we will when we come in.

17:36

[Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to speak after the hon. Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson), and I agree with him that this conversation should be had with the engagement of business in order to find a solution. I have tried to do that over the last few years when we have debated this issue time and again. Of course, I have been in business for a number of years—three decades—and the No. 1 thing any business wants is a fair and level playing field on which to compete. That is not just good for businesses; it is also good for consumers. The best thing to drive down prices and drive up service is a healthy, competitive market—a free market. I draw the House’s attention to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests; our business did occupy a couple of hundred shops up and down the country.

There is no doubt that business rates were built for a completely different era. In this conversation, we talk about how business rates are actually making life difficult for some businesses, and that is true of course. They are additional costs that they could do without, but the No. 1 thing driving problems for businesses is consumer choice—the choice to shop online rather than to shop in the high street. Nevertheless, I think everyone in this Chamber wants to make sure the high street stays lively. Of course, it will change—its make-up will change—and we still want to see a high street at the end of it, but the problem is driven principally by consumer choices. As I say, the business rates system was built for a completely different era, when pretty much every part of commerce and trade was done from a premises.

The other thing to say is that in the whole discussion of business rates reform, we talk a lot about retail, and of course retail is particularly hard hit by some of the changes to consumer demand, but this is not just about retail. It is also about the competition of restaurants and takeaways—often with the dark kitchens of Deliveroo which, again, have a different business make-up—and a different proportion of turnover that is basically driven by business rates. It is the same in my own business, the estate agents and lettings business, where we increasingly have competition trading online, and in plenty of other sectors, not least the travel sector, so we cannot look at this issue purely in the context of retail.

I welcome the fact that the Opposition have brought forward this debate and have made some suggestions about how we reform, because we need to look at some suggestions. The Treasury has of course suggested in its consultation a couple of things we would look at—a land value tax, which it pretty much discounts, and VAT, which I will talk about shortly—but it seems to centre around an online sales tax. That would be problematic, further complicating what is an already very complex tax system. An online sales tax is also a crude measure, because on the face of it, it will not have input and output, which VAT does, dealing with different profitability margins that businesses operate on, so I am not sure it could even work. We already have a sales tax in this country, VAT, and it would be far simpler to use VAT as the mechanism.

The Opposition suggest lifting the threshold for paying business rates for a temporary period and then increasing digital services tax sixfold. That can only be a very temporary solution, because digital services tax has to be eradicated when we introduce the multinational agreement on corporation tax. Also, when this Government brought in the digital services tax to try to level the playing field, Amazon added it straight on to prices for consumers. Those on the shadow Front Bench might know that, because of the way the digital services tax had to be drafted, it does not even apply to Amazon’s direct sales; it applies only to marketplace activity, or third-party sellers. So the Opposition proposal does not even hit Amazon’s direct sales by using a digital services tax. For all those reasons I think that is therefore the wrong thing to do.

It is right to look at this issue completely freshly again, but I do not think property taxes are a solution for replacing the £30 billion of revenue. I thought my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle (Huw Merriman) was very clear in his comments, although others might not agree that he was clear. The simple way to deal with this issue is to add about 3p to VAT, increasing it from 20p to 23p. That would, on the face of it, increase the take from VAT to about £20 billion a year, which gets us quite a long way towards replacing business rates revenue; and it is also simple for retailers.

John Lewis has three sales channels: not just high street and online, but click and collect as well. With an online sales tax, John Lewis and everybody else would have to decide how a product is sold and apply online sales tax just to those sold online or by click and collect, depending on how we draft the legislation. That would be hugely complex, whereas VAT is brutally simple: everybody pays the same rates; everybody is on a fair and level playing field; it is simple and quick—although I accept that none of this conversation is easy, as simple and easy are two different things.

The final area we should look at in this conversation is far more controversial: the VAT threshold. Businesses currently do not have to register for VAT until their taxable turnover reaches £85,000. We should look at reducing that significantly. In Germany the threshold is £20,000. The £85,000 threshold is a real disincentive for businesses to grow. Lots of businesses stay under the threshold as they do not want to register for VAT because of the costs to the business. That distorts the marketplace. We should have a full review of how VAT operates in terms of its level and replacing business rates with it, and look at the threshold, because that would overnight take away one of the major blockages to productivity in our economy—it stops businesses recruiting extra people, taking on extra premises and opening longer. Indeed, many businesses close for a portion of the year to try to stay under the threshold.

This fair and level playing field needs to be in place right across the economy. Keep it simple, keep it stable; that is what businesses want. I hope the Minister on duty and Treasury Ministers look at this and take a broader view of how we get our businesses taxes right.

17:44

[Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure, as always, to follow the thoughtful contribution by the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake).

I start by congratulating HullBID on winning its recent ballot. It had an 87% turnout from businesses in the city centre, and it won the vote by 81%. I am sure that every Member of this House would be delighted to have those percentages. I congratulate Kathryn Shillito, the executive director of HullBID, on her amazing work throughout the pandemic, offering advice, grants and financial support for businesses right in the city centre.

That support and advice has been needed more than ever, because we see from the data that more than 197 businesses in Hull West and Hessle are at risk, despite the excellent work that is going on in the city. Our independent retail scene is thriving. As some of the bigger names are moving out, we are home-growing our own talent and our own businesses in our own city. Trinity market is full of exciting independent shops, as is Hepworth arcade, and we were shortlisted for the Great British High Street awards just last year—I am sure they will look on us favourably again next year.

Although there has been some disagreement during the debate, there has been so much consensus, and there seems to be a consensus that the business rates system that we have at the moment is simply not fit for purpose. In my city of Hull, the high street has moved from one location to another, but the rating system for business rates has not moved with it. One part of the city centre used to be the thriving area where everyone shopped. It is now completely different, yet businesses there still pay higher business rates, because those rates are set on an old-fashioned and outdated model. That must change.

I want to mention Ye Olde White Harte pub in Hull, which I highly recommend to everyone. It has been there since 1550, and it is famous for its “plotting room”, where the people of Hull apparently got together to decide that they would turn away Charles I when he came to try to enter the city, thus starting the English civil war. I have no reason to start a civil war right here, right now, but I do want to point out the unfairness of the business rates and taxation system that that pub is under. When I visited, its landlord told me that its rates are based on “fair maintainable trade”, which has been criticised for lacking transparency, being open to manipulation and being biased in favour of pub companies and against landlords. I wrote to the Minister about this issue, raising the case of the White Harte, and I hope that he will review my letter again.

However, if we waited for the Government to fix the problems in Hull, we would be waiting an awfully long time. As I proved with my story about Ye Olde White Harte, we have nothing in my city if not an independent and fighting spirit, so we are coming to our own solutions and solving our own problems. I have been working closely with businesses in Hull to champion the city as the capital of home working and remote working, so it was very disappointing to read on the front page of one newspaper that the Prime Minister and the Chancellor want everyone to go back to the offices where they worked before. That seems to me to be re-establishing the inequality that existed previously. Why?

Why do people have to go back to the cities and offices in which they worked before? Why not look elsewhere, at other parts of our beautiful country? Look at the city of Hull, where we have the fastest broadband and affordable standards of living. We are right by the ferry—if someone wants to pop off to Holland, they can do so for £40 return on P&O—and we can get a direct train down to London in only two and a half hours on Hull Trains’ bespoke open railway service. We have everything we need to offer remote workers. We have a much higher standard of living than they would have if they were living in a tiny little flat and commuting. No offence to my colleagues from London, but the prices in London are extraordinary. Living in a small flat in London and getting stuck on the underground, or living in the city of Hull, in a beautiful, much bigger house, with the Yorkshire countryside and the beautiful east coast on the doorstep—which would we rather?

Why are the Government insisting on sending everyone back to the office as they were before? No—send everyone instead to cities such as Hull, where they would be welcomed with open arms. They can give our high streets a boost by coming and living in our city centre, they can spend their money in our city, and they can truly achieve a bit more equality than the Government are offering. So I hope we are not going to return to business as normal. The first step in not returning to business as normal is to look at reforming the business rate system. It is outdated, it does not work and it is unfair to businesses in my constituency.

I hope that while we look at changing things for the better, we also change our attitude towards remote working, because it really can offer the skills revolution and the opportunities we need for cities like mine. For too long in cities such as Hull, if people wanted a good job, they had to leave. Remote working changes all that. People can have the job of their dreams in the city where they grew up, sitting behind a laptop.

[David Johnston]

I completely agree with the hon. Lady that we need jobs in other parts of the country, but does she agree with me that the big risk of remote working is that younger workers will not develop the skills, knowledge and connections that they do when they are in the workplace? They, at least, need to be able to go into the office to develop them.

[Emma Hardy]

I am so pleased the hon. Gentleman raises that point, because it brings me on to my second point. He is absolutely right and we are solving that problem here in the fine city of Hull by working with businesses to set up remote working hubs. We are looking at hotdesking situations and bringing together people who wish to have remote jobs, but who do not wish to be isolated forever in their bedrooms away from everybody else and not have those opportunities to network. We are looking at changing part of Princes Quay shopping centre into an area where we can have remote working desks based around particular industries, so that people can network, get to know each other and mix while still working remotely for different companies around the country or even around the world. This is happening right now. We have turned the old HSBC bank on Whitefriargate, owned by businessman Gerard Toplass, into the most stunning place to work. We will be setting up hotdesking opportunities right there in that old bank, utilising the assets we have in our high streets into new resources—resources for hotdesking and remote working, and bringing more residential living into the city, too.

To do all that, however—I could enthuse about this idea for hours, but I will stop now, Madam Deputy Speaker—we need to start with a fundamental reform of business rates. To give Hull a chance to help itself, we need fair taxation for everybody.

17:52

[Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to contribute to this debate. I think we can all agree on the immense importance of our small businesses and high streets that we represent in our constituencies, but I must also add shopping parades. We do not hear a lot about shopping parades. They are not necessarily as glamorous as town centres, but I must say that the small businesses that operate in the shopping parades in Ipswich have played an absolutely vital role, particularly when restrictions were in place and people could not go far from their home. They worked incredibly hard to support many of my constituents during that key phase and I would like to mention them here today.

The word “churlish” has been used a fair bit in this debate so far, by the Minister and other colleagues, and I think it is correct to use that word. Overall, £407 billion has been spent by the Government, much of which has been to support businesses through the furlough scheme, which we think has protected about 12 million jobs. In my constituency alone, £7.6 million has been given in restart grants to support local businesses in my town, so I think it is a slight difference to say, “Well, maybe it could have been slightly better in this way or that way,” and try to pretend that we have not done anything significant. I believe this Government have moved heaven and earth to support businesses in my constituency.

One hon. Member said earlier in the debate that the Conservatives are no longer the party of business and that every businessperson he talks to is disparaging about the Government’s support. That is simply not the case. Time and time again I talk to constituents and businesses in my constituency, some of whom have never actually supported the Conservatives before but are now open to doing so precisely because of the support that has been provided. That is not to say that there are not businesses and people out there who are not so happy with the support. That is true. These are conversations that I have had—[Interruption.] These are real conversations, so I do not know why you are laughing at me. [Interruption.] Sorry—I know I must refer to Members through the Chair. I got slightly animated there; I am very, very sorry. I have been getting better at that but sometimes standards slip.

I would like to talk about the town deal, which has been incredibly welcome for many hon. Friends and hon. Members. Ipswich, of course, has benefited from getting £25 million through a town deal. There are 11 different projects as part of that town deal that are making, and will make, I believe, an enormous difference to our town centre and to many businesses. As part of that—I mentioned shopping parades—there is a £2.5 million local shopping parade regeneration fund to support our shopping parades. We have buildings that have collected dust and have sat there empty that are being brought back into use. I cannot believe that about £100,000 had to be spent removing pigeon poo from one of those buildings, but that is the case. One of those projects will bring the Paul’s silo building in Ipswich back into use. The old post office building will be brought back into use because of the money supported through the town deal.

If the Labour party was this new pro-business party, despite the fact that it was not long ago that many of you were going into a general election supporting a Communist to be Prime Minister—[Interruption.] Of course, it was not long—[Interruption.] Was he not? [Interruption.] Was he not? But, of course, I forget—“under new management”. I do not believe that the Labour party can credibly claim to be the party of business, but why is it that you pour scorn on the town deal, which is providing over £3 billion—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. Can the hon. Gentleman please stop making it so personal? He keeps saying “you” and he knows he must not do that.

[Tom Hunt]

Over £3 billion has been provided through the town deal programme—something that I believe all hon. Members should welcome. This is vital support, but time and time again, scorn has been poured on it and I think that is regrettable, because I would have thought that the town deal is something that we can all get behind and look at all the different ways that it supports local business.

I would like to talk about crime and antisocial behaviour, which is something that I think must be tackled if we are to support businesses on our high streets as they recover from the covid pandemic. I mention this with respect to both the night-time economy and the fact that, time and time again, I come across and am contacted by businesses in Ipswich who are victims of persistent crime, including shoplifting and everything else. This is a blight on their existence, so we need to have, in my view, a zero-tolerance approach to this kind of, as some people might call it, “low-level antisocial behaviour and crime”, but there is nothing “low-level” about something that happens week after week and seriously affects your ability to operate as a business. We need to have that zero-tolerance approach.

We are getting 20,000 extra police officers, but I would like to see a review of the national police funding formula. In Suffolk, we are getting between 50 and 60 new police officers, but, if we were funded fairly, it would probably be closer to 100. We need to look at that and at the night-time economy, because we do have a problem in Ipswich with crime. We also have a problem with drugs—drug-dealing and drug-taking—in the town centre, particularly on a Friday and Saturday night. The concern that I have is that you do not have that positive police presence and positivity, so negative influence can come into the town centre. Tackling crime and antisocial behaviour in our town centres must be part of supporting businesses as they recover from the covid pandemic.

I support the opportunity to debate this, and I agree with many hon. Friends that business rates should be looked at. We should strive for a level playing field, and we are so far away from having that level playing field. We see businesses that are rooted in our constituencies, and could not be more local and more important to the functioning of our local communities, unable to co-operate.

I think we should strive for a situation in which our town centres continue to be key retail centres. There may be some that are more residential, but we should not give up on a significant component of town centres and city centres being retail. For that to happen, we need a serious look at business rates. I was pleased to see that beer duty may also be looked at, which would be vital to the hospitality sector in Ipswich.

I do think that there needs to be less churlishness, because the Government have provided unprecedented support for businesses throughout the pandemic. Over £400 billion has been spent—£7.6 million in Ipswich alone has been spent on restart grants and furlough—so we need to have that debate. There needs to be an appreciation that at some point there will have to be a reckoning when it comes to public finances.

It is one thing to say, whenever there is a spending commitment or a debate about spending money, that we will always agree to it, but we cannot at the same time vote against the move to withdraw restrictions, which at least gave businesses in my constituency an opportunity over the summer to breathe and recover from the trauma that they have experienced throughout the pandemic. There are challenges ahead when it comes to covid, but I think it was right to allow businesses to recover in the summer period.

18:00

[Sarah Olney (Richmond Park) (LD)]

I am extremely glad that the shadow Chancellor moved the motion before the House, because the support of our small businesses has to be one of the principal priorities of the Government at this time. I know that enormous challenges are crowding in from every side as we continue to tackle the covid crisis while dealing with fuel price rises, supply chain shortages, NHS backlogs and the work to decarbonise our economy, but a thriving economy built on private enterprise will do more to help us to solve all those problems than anything else, so it is imperative that the Chancellor does all he can to support and promote small businesses over the next few months.

Given its well-publicised proximity to Heathrow airport, my constituency plays host to many companies in the travel sector. I am particularly concerned about the future of the sector. Despite announcements in recent weeks, there are still considerable restrictions on people’s ability to travel that continue to limit the opportunities for trading in the sector, not least with continued uncertainty about the sector’s prospects as covid cases continue to soar.

The travel sector underpins so many other aspects of the UK economy, both in attracting visitors to our cultural and hospitality sectors and in enabling us to seek out new markets elsewhere, so it must be a strategic priority for the Government to provide it with support. Travel industries will not thrive after the end of the pandemic if they do not receive assistance now.

I call on the Government to extend furlough to all the sectors that are still trying to operate under restrictions, but particularly to the travel sector. They also need to redesign the furlough scheme to enable companies to use it to part-pay their employees. When I spoke to travel companies at a surgery in my constituency recently, they highlighted that at the moment they have enough trade to pay their previously full-time employees to come in for two or three days a week to man the phones, take bookings and research options. They would love to have furlough to be able to pay them for the remainder of their time, just to keep going while there are still so many restrictions and so much uncertainty. Furlough was conceived as an all-or-nothing system, but it really needs to change in order to continue to support businesses that are still affected as we come out of the pandemic.

The retail and hospitality sectors were badly hit by the pandemic. Many are now struggling to reopen fully, thanks to supply chain and labour market issues. The Government need to look again at their immigration policies and think about how they can be better designed to support our key high street industries as we emerge from the pandemic. More than that, they need to complete their promised review of business rates and think again about how they are levied on town centre businesses.

There has been a lot of discussion this afternoon about what might take the place of business rates—I think that there was some freelancing from some hon. Gentlemen on the Tory Back Benches about what might replace them. They are no longer in their place, which is a shame; I was very interested to hear about their suggestions to increase VAT, although I think I am right in saying that the Conservatives committed in their 2019 manifesto to not doing so.

[Peter Grant]

I fear that I may have anticipated the hon. Lady’s next line, but how much faith can we place in a Conservative manifesto promise not to increase tax these days?

[Sarah Olney]

The hon. Gentleman has indeed anticipated exactly what I was about to say, which is that, given that in their 2019 manifesto the Conservatives committed themselves to not raising VAT, we can surely expect it to be raised at some point before the end of this Parliament. Nevertheless, if the Government are not sure how to proceed on business rates, I can give the hon. Gentleman a fully fleshed-out policy from the Liberal Democrats. We believe that a commercial landowner levy would be a much fairer way of raising local revenue, by taxing landowners rather than business owners. We urge the Government to consider that option.

Small businesses provide about three fifths of the employment in the private sector, and it is vital that those jobs are supported. The Government’s recent announcement of a rise in national insurance payments will deter small businesses from creating the new jobs that are so badly needed and limit the expansion of companies seeking to offer new products and services, including those that offer the innovation we need for the green economy. The Government should limit the impact of this rise on the small business sector by quadrupling the employment allowance from £4,000 to £16,000. That would enable a small business to employ five full-time workers on the median UK salary without paying any national insurance contributions, and would incentivise and support new businesses as we make the transition towards a net zero carbon economy.

The UK faces a troubling few months. Covid is not over yet, and a return to normal patterns of life seems likely to be substantially delayed. However, problems create opportunities, and we need to help our entrepreneurs to find solutions and bring them to the people who need them. Small businesses support communities, provide employment and deliver a good society, and the Government need to support them for everyone’s benefit.

18:06

[David Johnston (Wantage) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to speak in the debate.

I am blessed in having a great many small businesses in Wantage and Didcot, from those that create medical devices and vaccines to those that clear debris from space. I have more pubs in my constituency than all but seven other Members. I have high-quality farms—and we must not forget that our farms are businesses too. In fact, I have a huge range of businesses, including the Great British Mead Company. I do not know how many superhero film fans there are in the House, but while there may not be many similarities between me and Chris Hemsworth’s Thor character, being able to drink mead—thanks to the Great British Mead Company —is my one claim to similarity.

I have just issued to my constituents a leaflet reporting on what I have been doing. I have visited more than 300 organisations since I was elected, many of them businesses and many of them on the high street. I have to say to Opposition Members that, time and again, when I visit business people on the high street, they say, “I think the Government have done a really good job in supporting us.” Sometimes they preface that by saying, “I am not a Conservative voter.” The gratitude is real, and I suspect that Opposition Members have heard it when they have gone around their own constituencies—although I do not expect them to acknowledge that here—because the support has been phenomenal. As has already been mentioned, it has amounted to more than £400 billion. People generally think of furlough and the grant scheme, but there is also the money that has gone into the towns fund, the increase in employment support, and the money invested in the start-up loan scheme.

It is true that businesses have had differing experiences of the pandemic, with some doing better than others. It has already been pointed out that businesses in the travel sector have had a particularly difficult time. There are pubs whose regulars have still not come back. However, there are signs of optimism and steps in the right direction for all these sectors.

It is an interesting feature of this debate that the one thing on which we all seem to agree is that the present business rates system is not what it should be and needs to be reformed. That is precisely why the Government are conducting a review of it. The interim report has already given us an indication of what people have been saying about business rates, which is sometimes that they are too high, sometimes that there is too much admin, and sometimes that the reliefs do not seem to be targeted exactly as they should be. There is also the issue of online competition. I am as keen as anybody to see the playing field levelled with companies such as Amazon, but it is not just Amazon that does online sales. There are often very small businesses that do not have the cost of buildings and that might be competing on a slightly unlevel playing field with businesses on our high streets, so we need a system that is not just about whacking Amazon.

As Labour’s motion says, we have six months left of the current review. We are not making a decision this month, and the Government will bring out their proposals. Thanks to the action they have taken in this period, unemployment is lower than expected and GDP is higher. I have every confidence that in the coming months the Government will take whatever action is needed, including on business rates, because they have shown in the past 18 months that people’s jobs and people’s businesses, as well as people’s health, are right at the centre of their decision making.

18:10

[Alex Davies-Jones (Pontypridd) (Lab)]

I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate today on behalf of my small business owners in Pontypridd and Taff Ely. Seeing people returning to our high streets and seeing local shops, restaurants and pubs reopening over the summer to crowds of grateful customers was a blessed relief for business owners and consumers, and I know that it is not just high streets across Pontypridd and Taff Ely that have benefited from an economic boost over the summer. Despite the cautious return to normality taken by the Welsh Labour Government, it has been an extremely difficult few years for businesses across all our constituencies. Much of the hospitality sector had to close due to covid-19 restrictions and other businesses struggled to cope with staff illness, social distancing requirements and, particularly in recent months, the challenges posed by supply chain delays due to Brexit.

I recognise that the Treasury’s support packages such as furlough and the self-employed income support scheme offered significant support to businesses across the UK, but far too many businesses and individuals still did not get the support they needed from the UK Government. They were completely excluded. I would like to draw the House’s attention to the report out today by UK Music, which shows that 69,000 jobs in the music industry were lost as a result of the pandemic, which is almost a third of the workforce. Shame on this Government for failing to step up and support our creative industries.

In my own constituency, people have lost their jobs and livelihoods due to redundancies at GE Aviation and British Airways, and fantastic local businesses in the travel industry such as Ferris Coach Holidays and Edwards Coaches have struggled without any access to tailored support for their sectors. Thankfully, we are seeing brave new businesses in Pontypridd and across Taff Ely opening their doors, including the No. 12 bar, Storyville Books and the Gatto Lounge on our local high streets, but new businesses and those that are more established are still facing massive challenges, especially as they still struggle to recover from the impact of the pandemic. With more and more businesses being undercut by online giants such as Amazon, it is no wonder that small independent businesses are feeling the strain. Small businesses such as those really enrich our local communities, and without them, I fear that more and more high streets will look identical, regardless of where in the UK they are.

Many businesses are also facing the double challenge of increases in the cost of living, from rising energy bills and petrol costs, and increased shortages and supply chain issues. Reducing business rates would be an excellent way to support businesses large and small through what many are anticipating will be a difficult few years. As my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves) mentioned, our Labour Government in Wales have led the way on support for businesses throughout the coronavirus pandemic. The relief package announced by the Welsh Labour Government in March 2021 extended the rates holiday for businesses with rateable values of up to £500,000 in the retail, leisure and hospitality sectors in Wales for the financial year 2021-22. In conjunction with the small business rate relief scheme, this has meant that more than 70,000 businesses across Wales have continued to pay no rates at all in 2021-22. But with the end to rates relief across the UK coming up in March, and without funding from the UK Government through the Barnett consequential formula, the Welsh Government simply will not be able to support local businesses in the way they want to next year.

I urge the Minister to think now about the steps he can take to support high streets across the UK, and not just in England. This Government talk a good game about the Union, but when it comes down to it, time and again the devolved Administrations in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are nothing but a distant second thought. I would therefore be grateful if the Minister could update the House on his most recent discussions about support for our high streets with his counterparts in the Welsh Government. Ultimately, it is vital that businesses in Wales are supported through the challenges of the winter and throughout what is likely to be an extended period as we recover from the pandemic. They must not be left behind.

18:14

[Danny Kruger (Devizes) (Con)]

I am pleased that the Opposition have chosen to debate this vital topic, as it is obvious that there are real problems facing our high streets and real challenges facing our businesses across the country. These familiar problems have been greatly exacerbated by the lockdowns over the past year and a half and by competition from online sales, which was the dominant challenge before covid, and by the changes in the way we live, work, shop and socialise.

These changes are also a potential salvation for some of our places and towns. The shadow Chancellor talked about the need for fresh ideas, and she is absolutely right. There have been real innovations in the way our towns look and in the way our businesses work. New technology is making viable again places that were left behind by economic changes over hundreds of years.

The market town of Devizes is the jewel of Wiltshire and the gateway to the south-west, and one of medieval England’s premier places, but it has not been the same since about 1830 because of industrialisation and the flow of labour to the towns and economic centres. Devizes is becoming an economic hub and a viable financial centre once again, largely because of the internet. Largely thanks to digital, we also see an opportunity to prosper for places left behind by deindustrialisation over the past few generations.

I am sorry that the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Emma Hardy) is no longer here, because she made a tremendous speech. She sounded like one of us, talking about the glory of her place and the opportunity that has been created for young people in Hull in recent years, not just because of the wonderful place it is but because of the opportunities of connectivity from new investment in broadband and transport. That is what we need to think about when we think about places. I believe, as I think she does—and as I hope we all believe on the Conservative Benches—that people should not have to leave the place they love to have the life they want, but that does not mean there should not be opportunities to come and go and for information, ideas, goods and services to travel.

Connectivity is vital for our places, so I applaud what the Government are doing to increase access to broadband and particularly to increase access to rural transport. I hope Devizes will benefit from one of the new stations under the restoring your railway fund.

We also need more support to adapt, and I welcome everything the Government are doing, particularly through the Help to Grow scheme, the start-up loans scheme and the super deduction on capital investment, which are tremendous initiatives. The more than £3.5 billion of structural help being provided through the towns fund will spruce up 100 places with tens of millions of pounds of funding.

The community ownership fund to which we committed in the manifesto is now being introduced, and it will support what the hon. Lady talked about: pride of place and allowing communities to take ownership and support local businesses.

[Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con)]

It is great to hear my hon. Friend champion the idea of community, and he hits the nail on the head. For our high streets it is about creating a community of the future to which people come not only to shop and to do business but to socialise. That is how to make sure our high streets, like mine in Hinckley, are fit for the future.

[Danny Kruger]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Of course we want a more diverse and plural high street; it does not need to be all retail. Residential should be part of the high street of the future, too, bringing footfall. He is right to highlight these institutions of belonging, civil society and places of gathering that enable people to come together and work together.

I applaud everything that is being done on spending, but I will say a word on tax. Of course business rates need reform, and there have been many helpful observations and contributions on that this evening. It is right that the Government have effected a reduction in business rates in recent years by raising the employment allowance, which is a significant tax cut for small businesses that I applaud, and it is right that we are reviewing the whole business rates system. I recognise the force of the argument for a digital sales tax and a global corporation tax, which are the right things to explore in the context of the new world of online retail, but I sound a note of caution and echo the point made by the Institute for Fiscal Studies that there is a point at which reducing business rates can actually be harmful. For finite resources such as land or space on the high street, reduced business rates can simply lead to rent increases, as we have seen. So we need to think about a reform that will not simply lead to benefits to landlords, with these not feeding into benefits for those businesses and with increasing inequality, without benefiting the Exchequer. That is not to mention the obvious need to compensate for this reduction in or abolition of business rates, as proposed by the Labour party, which has not yet explained how it would plug that enormous fiscal hole.

[Paul Howell (Sedgefield) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that there is the potential for a three-level look at this, as we have the high street, out-of-town shopping and online businesses? There are three different categories. My constituency has out-of-town shopping centres that are doing very well, thank you, but the high streets are in a very difficult place. To go back to his earlier point, may I remind him that the hope that railway stations—whether Devizes or Ferryhill—can give to local communities in developing—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)]

Order. The hon. Gentleman has only just arrived and making a long intervention, having only just got here, is just taking up the time of others.

[Danny Kruger]

I thank my hon. Friend for the intervention and he is absolutely right in what he says. Of course, the challenge is to get a flexible system that recognises the diversity of our business system, which is why an overall review of business rates is better than some blanket abolition.

18:21

[Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Devizes (Danny Kruger). I am grateful for the opportunity to speak this afternoon and I want to start by paying tribute to our small businesses across this country, first and foremost those in my constituency, which encompasses the town of Reading, its suburbs of Caversham and Emmer Green, and the separate town of Woodley, all of which have a thriving small business community covering many sectors. People from across the country are probably familiar with the strength of the tech industry in our part of the south-east of England, but, as was mentioned by the hon. Member for Wantage (David Johnston), whose constituency includes Didcot, we share with colleagues in south Oxfordshire a number of other vibrant sectors. We have a strong local university, a strong record on entrepreneurship, the growth of many SMEs and a growing population, with many people relocating to the Reading area, which we welcome. We are a diverse and tolerant community that welcomes people coming in. That is a great strength and small businesses are a great strength of this country, and I want to pay tribute to the shadow Chancellor for her speech today on the importance of supporting small businesses in Labour policy and in that of any political party, just as it should be. I hope the Government listen today to the excellent points that have been made all round about the need to end the current business rates regime and to move on to something much more sensible and appropriate. Thoughtful comments have been made by Members from across the House on that point.

However, at this time, it is fair to say that, despite the thriving nature of many small businesses across this country and in my area, SMEs face some serious challenges. The pressures and difficulties of the current business rates regime are one part of that, but there are many others. It is fair to say, without being overly partisan, that the Government could learn a lot as they look back at the pandemic and at a series of other policy choices they have made in recent times. In my experience, SMEs have suffered enormously in the pandemic. Like many Members from across the House, I have worked hard to try to support them. That support needs to be continued at this time, as we come out of the great difficulties we have had recently.

There are many other problems, some of them self-inflicted, such as the current supply chain crisis, which is obviously linked to the Government’s Brexit deal, and the national insurance rise, which is a tax on jobs, which nobody in their right mind would recommend as an obvious choice. Other challenges include the sudden economic shock of the move away from physical retail, and I want to discuss that later in my brief remarks. There are many other pressures on SMEs, and we need to look at those and think about how we can address them.

There are great strengths to build on. I am not quite going to be able to rival my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Emma Hardy) in addressing the scale of the benefits of my town, but I will do my best in the few brief moments available. Reading is a booming medium-sized town, with a wonderful town centre and great history. It is an historic market town that goes back to Saxon times, as many people know. It has some wonderful buildings, more conservation areas than many towns of its size and many Georgian buildings. It was where Jane Austen went to school. It has the ruins of a wonderful abbey, which was once one of the biggest in the country. All of those are reasons to locate a small business in Reading, which has a pleasant working environment, history, culture, a fast train and excellent connections to London; the hon. Member for Devizes mentioned the importance of infrastructure to small businesses. We have a lot to build on; however, in my experience many small businesses in my constituency and, I believe, throughout the country are held back by issues such as the current business rates regime.

Let me mention a few other issues that hold back small businesses. There is a real need to look again at the national insurance increase. It is not the right time to do it. There must be other ways for those with the broadest shoulders to pay their fair share for necessary extra health and social care spending.

Education catch-up for young people who have been left behind because of the pandemic is a huge issue. There is a real economic link between that and the success of small businesses, as many young people are employed in SMEs in my area and, I am sure, throughout the country. I hope that the Government will do a lot more on the catch-up funding, which should be far more than something like £1 a day. The US and the Netherlands are spending more than £1,000 per pupil, with much more generous catch-up programmes, and Labour has pledged £14.7 billion for a much bigger scheme.

SMEs play a vital role in our economy and are contributing hugely in my area. There is great scope to build on and develop our historic town centres and to attract more replacement employment as retail contracts a bit. However, in my experience SMEs are held back by business rates. We need to scrap the current system and look at this issue again, and I urge the Government to do that.

18:26

[Mick Whitley (Birkenhead) (Lab)]

I warmly welcome the opportunity to champion everything that small businesses are doing to build a better Birkenhead in the wake of covid-19—from the many cafés and restaurants that gave so generously during the height of the pandemic so that no one went hungry to the All About You beauty parlour, which I opened last summer and which provides dedicated support to people undergoing chemotherapy treatment and pamper days for dementia patients.

Just last week, I had the great privilege of visiting some of the small businesses that are putting Birkenhead back on the cultural map, including Future Yard, a brand-new music venue that gives anything in Liverpool a run for its money—apologies to my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Kim Johnson)—and Make Hamilton Square, a profit-for-purpose that provides accommodation to social enterprises and promising new artists.

For far too long, my constituents had become accustomed to the depressing sight of rundown high streets and shuttered shop fronts. Although much more work still needs to be done, things are at last beginning change. The small businesses I have mentioned are leading the charge, bringing jobs and investment back to our town and restoring a sense of pride in the place we call home. They are all totally committed to giving back to their community.

For left-behind towns like Birkenhead to truly thrive, the Government must first recognise the profound responsibility that they have in supporting our town centres as we slowly emerge from covid-19. Too many businesses in Birkenhead and across our country face an uncertain future as they grapple with soaring prices, stock shortages, the end to rates relief and the impending hike in national insurance contributions. In my constituency alone, nearly 150 small businesses are in danger of going under—a terrifying statistic for a town already suffering from some of the UK’s highest levels of poverty and joblessness.

Things do not have to be this way. As the shadow Chancellor has said, reforming an outdated and regressive business rates system is essential if the Government are serious about honouring their promise to level up and build back better. The current system is just not fit for purpose, placing an unbearable burden on small and independent businesses while tech giants and multinationals hide away billions in offshore bank accounts. By freezing business rates and increasing the threshold for small business rates relief, we can lay solid foundations for our economic recovery and get the economy firing on all cylinders once again. That is why I will support my party’s motion later.

18:28

[Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP)]

I warmly commend the Labour party for bringing to the House for discussion the situation for high streets and small businesses, because it really is an issue that cuts across all our communities and all the places we represent. I am conscious that the situation in Scotland is different, as are many of the powers, which are reserved and devolved, so I shall focus more on the common issues that need resolution. I am also particularly supportive in general terms of the Labour motion. I think that we can all agree that business rates as they stand are not fit for purpose anywhere and that they need urgent reform. Worldwide, retail has experienced a disruptive event and an extreme transformation. Some of the points that were made earlier trying to draw distinctions and conclusions from local events miss the mark. This is a global phenomenon that we are seeing. The high street is undergoing a considerable evolution. I was struck by the shadow Chancellor saying that covid had changed everything. I slightly disagree; covid has accelerated trends that were already there. Although I do not think that it has changed quite everything, it has certainly accelerated the changes that we need to make as legislators to deal with the challenges that we are facing.

I commend the OECD for the research that it has done into the comparative analysis of different places and of how retail and consumer habits are changing worldwide. It is a very useful analysis. I was struck by the reference made by the hon. Member for Devizes (Danny Kruger) to the 1830s and how this is long-term change. In the same way that we saw industrialisation change retail habits, automation is changing several industries right now. What we have seen during covid is a massive step shift in the automation of retail. The fact is that a number of high street chains do not have a business model that will stand the test of time, because consumers are moving faster than their economic models. Covid has sped that up. Likewise, during covid, many of us have realised that soulless out-of-town retail developments are not a necessity in our lives when there is online retail. That trend will not stop; it will accelerate and continue.

Traditional retailers in the high street and in city centre developments are facing massive change in consumer spending and consumer trends. Let me share, or perhaps over-share this: if my dad has learned how to buy his pants online during covid—I am sure the House is delighted that I have shared that fact—retailers will need massively to change the space, the footprint and how they operate. That will have massive knock-on effects for central Government and for local government revenues and finances, and all sorts of other issues besides.

I think that we would all agree that it is the small, unique, interesting local businesses that are rooted in the community and that pay their taxes locally that will be the most resilient, as they give us a sense of place and a sense of community. It is surely incumbent on us to examine what we are doing that is holding them back and what we are doing that is militating against them.

We are seeing changes locally in Stirling, as we are in all of our communities. We have vibrant high streets in Callander, Bridge of Allan, Dunblane and Stirling City. We have a great retail offering and a great night-time economy as well, but we also have too many empty shop units. That is a problem that we must address, because we are not where we need to be. It needs to be addressed urgently if we are to avoid a deteriorating situation and to create an improving one. Many of the answers are local. I would like to see much more muscular use of compulsory repair orders by local government and more intervention against poor landlords where poor landlords exist. Business rates, as I have said, need urgent reform. There are no easy answers and I would caution that, as much as we are supporting the Labour motion, I am not sure that it has all of the answers.

We also need to stop doing things that are holding the high street back. That cuts across planning policy and local government. It also cuts across planning policy nationally in Scotland and in England. Issues that we can address in this House include proper consideration of VAT and business taxation generally and the lack of a workable digital tax, on which, much as I would acknowledge the work that has been done, we still have not seen sufficient results in the real world. We have tax avoidance on an industrial scale on occasion and that militates against the interests of our public Exchequer, against the interests of small and local businesses and against the interests of our high street.

We also need to be honest about the problems facing small business, including labour shortages and supply-chain problems occasioned by Brexit. Some Members earlier pretended that those problems do not exist or minimised their impact, and that really does not help an intellectually honest discussion.

We also need to be far more strategic and not do silly things that have hurt our businesses rather than help them. We need to be more strategic about how the high street operates. We have stepped forward on that in Stirling with the Stirling City working group, of which I am very supportive, listening to local people and local businesses and giving more resources to co-ordination and a longer-term strategic framework. We have seen, on occasion, too many well-intentioned but stop-start, short-term efforts of support which have often focused just on prettification or easy answers—on more bins or clean-ups of the high street, rather than on the long-term, strategic, macro issues that we need to address.

We have great businesses in Stirling and great businesses in Scotland. There are great businesses across the high streets that we all represent. In fact, we have a common endeavour to try to boost them and to stop doing things that are harming them. That is in all our interests.

18:34

[Naz Shah (Bradford West) (Lab)]

I thank the shadow Chancellor, my hon. Friend the Member for Leeds West (Rachel Reeves), for ensuring that we are having this debate on our Opposition day, as it is important to my constituents and certainly to the businesses in my constituency.

Supporting local businesses means supporting the workers, families and people in our communities. Local businesses are not just the backbone of our economy; they are also often the depictions and representations of many towns and cities across the country. In Bradford, we are incredibly fortunate to have a rich profusion of local businesses, especially in the hospitality industry, which not only caters for the locals in Bradford, but brings in so many others from afar. However, during the pandemic businesses have struggled, and those in Bradford West struggled extensively due to a longer period of local lockdowns. Their compassion, even in the toughest of times, did not wither away, and I witnessed that at first hand. While businesses were closing their doors, they were also opening their hearts by supporting those who were most in need, especially our NHS. I want to put on record my gratitude to them during those times.

But gratitude is not enough. Those businesses need the Government to support them during times of uncertainty. Although we are grateful for the support that has been forthcoming, it does not cut far enough for the businesses that are struggling now. The pandemic and the gradual effects of Brexit are signs of the pressures that local businesses are facing every day. We have heard about the queues of lorries that we expected at Dover following Brexit, but what this Government’s poor planning did not assess was the lorries without drivers that would have an impact on food and fuel shortages. This afternoon, I spoke to Regal Foods, a medium-sized business in my constituency, which really was affected by the situation.

Although a long-term strategy is needed to support local businesses to help to rebuild our economy, we can help sooner by freezing business rates. Labour plans to freeze business rates until the next revaluation. That will benefit sectors such as retail and hospitality that are hit the most by this tax. Hospitality businesses that are struggling to find workers and have only recently had to endure the increase in VAT to 12.5%, while barely being able to remain afloat, need such support. Labour also plans to cut business rates and increase the threshold for small business rates relief from the current threshold of £15,000 to £25,000.

[Chris Evans]

During the last financial crash, the Labour Government actually cut VAT to reinvigorate the high street, by ensuring that people went there and that money started to flow through the shops again. We hear from this Government yet again about raising value-added tax, as the Conservatives have always done whenever they have been in power. Does my hon. Friend believe that a VAT cut, rather than an increase, would help the high streets?

[Naz Shah]

I absolutely agree. The Government have gone back on their manifesto pledge not to raise taxes. Giving small businesses a discount on their business rates for 2022-23 would be a much-needed lifeline.

As I said at the start of my speech, supporting local businesses is about not just business, but the entire community. There are lots of wedding halls in my constituency. During the pandemic, I recall inviting the Prime Minister up to visit some of them. A wedding hall in my constituency is not just about the wedding hall itself and the people running it. It creates other jobs: the waiters, the florist, the photographer, the caterer—the list goes on. The pandemic really has had an impact on the local economies of these places. The Madisson, the Rio Grande and the Mirage in my constituency—those are the big ones, but there are lots of small ones too—have really borne the brunt of what happened during the pandemic. Those wedding halls are huge. Anybody who has been to an Asian wedding will know that we do weddings really well, with a large amount of people in attendance. Despite being able to put social distancing measures in place, the venues were not allowed to open and they really suffered.

In the same way, cutting business rates for SMEs will not only support the local economy, but counteract deprivation, poverty and regional inequality. I have the fastest growing rate of child poverty in the whole of Yorkshire and Humber. These measures go a long way in helping people to keep the bread on the table and keep their household going. We already know how much the universal tax credit cut will impact on my constituency.

A report from WPI Strategy in 2020 found that constituencies like mine are ranked third highest in the need for levelling up, as a direct result of a regional inequality impacting on business rates. The report found that it was even justified to refer to this regional inequality as a “northern shop tax”, as hard-working businesses in these areas, from SMEs to multinationals, were more likely to struggle with setting up shop because of business rates. More worryingly, analysis by Labour using the latest Office for National Statistics business impact survey reveals that 332,000 businesses are at risk of closure in the next three months, accounting for 828,000 jobs. In my constituency of Bradford West, 232 businesses are at risk, which will have a devastating impact on so many families who are already struggling.

[Kim Johnson (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab)]

I recognise the issues that you have raised in terms of the sectors that are likely to be impacted by the changes and because of the pandemic, but do you also agree that the brewing and pubs—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

Order. Would the hon. Lady please address the hon. Lady as “she”?

[Kim Johnson]

I apologise. Does my hon. Friend agree that the brewing and pubs sector has been hard hit by the pandemic and is set to be hit again by the proposed rises in VAT, beer duty and business rates? In Liverpool, the greatest city in the world, the sector contributes over 6,000 jobs and £160 million to the local economy. Does she agree that supporting this sector is vital in securing jobs and boosting our local economies?

[Naz Shah]

I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. While I absolutely agree with all the points she made, I am afraid I will have to debate with her whether Liverpool or Bradford is the greatest city in this country.

The world is changing, and not just with Brexit and covid; we had 11 years of austerity that went beforehand. We were not ready for the pandemic and now we are seeing the brunt of that. Our high streets and local businesses need support based on these modern challenges. Many of us have mentioned the emergence of the gig economy and everything going online. All these things need a new system. An age-old tax system that excludes digital businesses and burdens those SMEs on the high street is threatening the prosperity of our economy.

Labour is the pro-worker, pro-business party. The Conservatives, having already broken key election promises by raising income tax on workers, are now failing to act to cut business rates to support local business. North Parade in my constituency was shortlisted for the British high street awards. Recently, IK Collection, an award-winning tailors in Westgate in my constituency, kitted out the late Sir Tom Moore in suits. These are the kinds of businesses that make up the fabric of Bradford West. There are many other such businesses. It was featured in a programme, because when it came to the pandemic these businesses stopped tailoring suits and started tailoring scrubs. These are the kinds of businesses that now need our support. When we needed them, they stepped up. I urge the Government: now it is our turn to return some of the love and support that they need not just to survive but to thrive. Only when they thrive will places such as Bradford West also thrive.

18:43

[Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)]

Having listened to the speeches from the Labour Benches, I have put Bradford, Liverpool and Hull at the top of the places that I would like to visit. I would caution Conservative Members about some of the things they have said about the constituencies that they represent. When they talk down their constituencies they are not giving a very good advertisement to visit these places. They may be beautiful and there may be fantastic people living there, but it is no good if the Member of Parliament is standing there talking about the night-time economy, antisocial behaviour and what a bad visit it would be to go to the high street.



To me, the high street is the lifeblood of the British community. I have childhood memories of my mother dragging me around the shops to get shoes from the local shoe shop when we had to go back to school. I remember, when I was older and got into music, buying my first vinyl from the local record shop. As I got older and wanted to go out, I went out and got the latest fashions from the menswear shop. I remember that high street thriving, full of people and bustling. When I went back there a couple of years ago—I took my wife there once—I could not believe the transformation of that small high street that I remember so well. The banks had closed down and the cashpoints were concreted up, as people did not use them anymore. It was full of derelict shops.

I was interested to hear from my hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd and Taff-Ely (Alex Davies-Jones). I remember venturing sometimes down to her constituency to go shopping. I remember the Woolworths being there, and I remember the Marks and Spencer at the top end of Taff Street as well. They have gone. I worry about those high streets, because I believe that the health of a constituency and a community can be judged by the high street.

In the constituency I represent, there are three major high streets: Risca, Newbridge and Blackwood. If anyone wants to visit Blackwood, it has a number of unique boutique shops. It has the Maxime cinema. If anyone wants to see the new James Bond film, “No Time to Die”, they will not find a cheaper ticket in town than at the Maxime cinema in the middle of Blackwood. We are not without our problems, however, and they come down simply to business rates. We have all heard from Members on both sides of the House that there must be some sort of reform. I have been in the House for 11 years. From the moment I came into this House, there have been campaigns on both sides of the House to save our high street. The former Chancellor George Osborne talked about tax simplification, yet here we are 11 years later, and still we face the problem of business rates, and they are still not being reformed.

I was interested in those contributions from the Government Benches that said that the Labour party in opposition must come up with an innovative solution to sort the business rates problem. I say to those Members: they are in government, so they have to come up with the solutions. I see some Government Members nodding to say that they have come up with solutions, and I will come to the points they raised. The simple fact is that we all know business rates need to be reformed.

I want to talk about a company in my constituency: Tidal’s Store, a fantastic family-run business that sells high-class, high-quality furniture. If any Member of the House wants to deck out their flats in London, or their houses—or, dare I say, for some Conservative Members, their mansions—they could not do better than going online and buying from Tidal’s Store. It is a fantastic shop in the middle of Blackwood. However, I went there three years ago, and the problem it had was business rates. At the top end of the town, it pays £330 a square foot for business rates. Go further down the town and businesses pay £300. At the bottom of the town, businesses pay £275 a square foot. They are all on the same high street. It does not make sense to me. To top it all off, there is a business park just below the high street where businesses pay just £50 a square foot. Those businesses taking advantage of those business rates are not the small, family-run, innovative companies, such as Tidal’s Store; they are the huge companies that can afford the business rates in town. It seems extremely unfair.

I touched on this issue with the Minister earlier. I went to the council. In fairness, I will give credit where credit is due to Caerphilly County Borough Council, its chief executive Christina Harry and their leader Philippa Marsden. They know this is a real problem for their high street and have been very supportive, but there is nothing they can do. All they do is collect the tax, yet if there is a complaint, it is Caerphilly Council that is taking the blame. I then went to the valuation office. It said to me, “Oh, we just set the rates, Mr Evans. We do not do anything about appeals. We cannot change the rate. The rate is set in stone.” Then I thought, “I will write to the Minister.” The Minister at the time, as a matter of coincidence, was the now Chancellor of the Exchequer. He wrote to me saying that there was nothing he could do. Is anything more frustrating than seeing a family-grown business, which I want to thrive, crippled by business rates that sometimes cost more than its rent? There is nothing I can do and no one we can go to. That is the frustration with business rates at the moment.

It is all very well for the valuation office to say that rates are set in stone, but in times of economic crisis or in a pandemic, we need flexibility. I say to the Minister, please, set up a system whereby businesses can appeal. They are crying out for help. We have already heard that there will be a review, but reviews take time. Many of these businesses are struggling and need help right now.

The other shopping centre in my constituency, Newbridge, is home to Newbridge rugby football club and world champion boxer Joe Calzaghe. Anybody who wants to visit an example of an art deco theatre would do well to come to Newbridge Memo and see for themselves how a working men’s institute has been taken over and become a thriving, beating heart of the community. But Newbridge faces the same problem: many shops are boarded up, which looks terrible when people walk down the street. Next Saturday, the Co-operative store in Newbridge will close its doors for the last time, which is very sad. We have campaigned to keep it in place. The next nearest Co-ops are in Oakdale, which is two miles away, and then further down in Machen in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Caerphilly (Wayne David). People will not be able to shop for their groceries locally in Newbridge.

I was pleased when a local businessman contacted me and said, “I want to take over the business.” He owns a number of businesses so it would be an excellent move, but the one thing that was holding him back was, yet again, the business rates. As many hon. Friends have said, business rates in Wales are frozen currently, and I hope, for my English counterparts, that the Government take on board that example. There will come a time, however, when business rates will be unfrozen and will have to be paid. What future do people have when they know that time bomb is ticking?

The Government need to look again at business rates. People need help now. Right hon. and hon. Members on the Government Benches have talked about increasing VAT. There was a very good speech earlier about increasing it by 3p in the pound, but that is wrong for two reasons. First, VAT is an inherently regressive tax, because people are taxed on what they spend, which means that the poorest people in society pay it. Secondly, the packet of measures that was put in place in 2008 after the financial crash by the then Chancellor, Alistair Darling, included a reduction in VAT to ensure that people got out there and started spending in shops so that money flowed through the economy. Increasing value added tax is asking the poorest people in society to bear the burden.

When I was a child, as I said at the start of my speech, going to the high street was an event. We need to make it easier for people to go there. I ask the Government to put in place measures for local councils to offer free parking and, when shops are boarded up, short-term lets and business rate holidays to ensure that there are thriving businesses in the high street. There is much to be done. The high street—that feature of British society—is on the critical list. We have to do something now.

18:54

[Stephen Flynn (Aberdeen South) (SNP)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans), who gave a very impassioned speech about his constituency.

I have been somewhat struck by much of the debate, which has rightly focused on non-domestic rates. In that regard, we know that non-domestic rates is a devolved matter in Scotland and that the Scottish Government have made the decision that the retail and hospitality sector will continue to have a full exemption from rates until the end of this financial year, in contrast to the supposed party of business on the Government Benches. However, there is one huge issue—a massive elephant in the room—that I was astonished that the shadow Chancellor did not talk about. Indeed, very few Members in this Chamber have spoken about the issue: the obvious difficulties caused by Brexit. We have businesses up and down Scotland, and up and down the entirety of the UK, that cannot recruit staff and cannot get their hands on the goods they need to sell to their customers to keep themselves going.

Small businesses that want to export are facing exponentially longer delays in comparison with what happened before. I spoke to those at a local business in Aberdeen recently. They exports their goods, which is what they want to do—they want to grow their business, which is everything we want to see in our local community—and it has gone from taking a couple of days to almost six weeks to export a good to the European Union. If we are talking about challenges for small businesses and the really big issues that face them, yes, non-domestic rates is undoubtedly one of those—it needs to be addressed, and I think all politicians of all parties agree on that—but we cannot ignore Brexit or simply pretend that it is not happening, although that is what it feels is taking place in this Chamber. It is quite astonishing.

Beyond Brexit and beyond non-domestic rates, we also see small businesses having to deal with the rise, or the proposed rise, in national insurance contributions. They cannot get hold of the staff and they cannot get hold of the goods, and when they try to export it takes much longer than it should—and their non-domestic rates are an issue, particularly it appears for those in English constituencies—but they also now have an additional tax burden for the staff they employ, yet this Government still try to keep up the guise of being one that supports small businesses.

There is one more issue that is extremely pertinent that I do not feel has necessarily been discussed or given the full attention of this House that it deserves, which is the energy price crisis. We know that households right across Scotland and the UK are facing exponential rises in their energy bills. However, it does not just stop at households; it affects businesses too, particularly small businesses. This is something they did not expect to happen, yet this Government have come forward with absolutely no support for them whatsoever. We have tax rises, we have Brexit and of course we have an energy price crisis. It is a perfect storm of challenges facing our high streets, and I would respectfully suggest that the Government should have done better on each and every one of those issues.

That takes me to my final point, which is on bricks and clicks. It is about how we get rid of the difficult situation of having online retailers not having a physical presence within the local community and the benefit they reap from doing so. How we solve that has been discussed in this Chamber at length throughout my time in this House, but what I really struggle with is the Government simply saying that the digital services tax was enough and that that was the way to resolve the problem. Quite clearly, that was not sufficient, and it was never going to be sufficient.

While we have a situation in which someone can sell their goods online cheaper than they can in a store, ultimately businesses will move online. As my hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Alyn Smith) rightly put it, that is not just a challenge that faces Scotland or the UK, but a much bigger challenge, and all the pandemic has done is to accelerate the difficulties in that regard. We cannot sit here and moan about the challenges facing our high streets if we are unwilling to take that issue head-on.

19:00

[Sam Tarry (Ilford South) (Lab)]

The impact of the covid pandemic has been excruciating for many people in Ilford South and for the majority of people in this country, not least the many who run businesses and their workers, and this is now coupled with the steep rise in living costs and the supply chain crisis caused, to be honest, by Brexit and the Government’s indecisive action as well as the global pandemic. Too many businesses in this country are now at breaking point, so we are debating today not just business rates but how imperative it is for the Government to give greater support to all sectors of our economy to ensure we emerge stronger, and especially to the small and independent businesses that are the bedrock of economic success in Britain, certainly in my constituency.

We on this side of the House have set out clear plans for how a Labour Government would increase the small business rates relief threshold from £15,000 to £25,000, exactly the kind of welcome tax cut small businesses so desperately need, and a future Labour Government would go further, scrapping business rates and putting in place a fairer taxation system that supports small businesses and boosts local economies such as that of Ilford South. Sadly, however, this Government have demonstrated time and again that “build back better” is little more than hollow rhetoric from a tired Cabinet devoid of ideas that has repeatedly let down so many people through a catalogue of policy failures, whether the derisory 1% pay rise for NHS workers, slashing welfare support for the most vulnerable in our society, or hiking national insurance for everyone. The failure to address business rates is the latest kick in the teeth for millions across this country.

In my constituency there are now 7,975 unemployment benefit claimants—8.4% of the population aged under 64. The number of new claimants has increased by 4,795, more than doubling, since just a year ago in March 2020. People are really suffering, and getting businesses back on their feet is crucial to moving us forward.

This is not just rhetoric; there are cold, hard facts that the Government are increasingly choosing to ignore. The Office for National Statistics published data last week revealing that a staggering 332,000 businesses are at risk of closure in the next three months; in the capital alone, that figure stands at 62,000. In Ilford South, over the past year the number of medium-sized businesses fell by 11%, and although smaller businesses and microbusinesses are doing well they need the right support to become sustainable and provide stable longer-term employment.

Understandably, the business sector has been united in its alarm at the current direction of travel. The national chair of the Federation of Small Businesses yesterday said that the ONS figures demonstrated

“just how desperate the need for business rates reform is.”

To give some sense of just how desperate businesses are, the British Retail Consortium has claimed that four out of five retailers will have to close branches if business rates are not alleviated. That was compounded by the Confederation of British Industry, and almost 50 trade associations representing a quarter of all jobs in Britain, adding that up to 50% of business investment is being harmed by business rates under the present system. Cutting those rates would unlock billions of pounds of investment in our economy and keep millions of people in work. The CBI’s chief economist was also crystal clear:

“Any can-kicking—or further business tax rises—would be seen a lost opportunity by firms of all sizes given the desire from both business and government to really go for growth.”

This was echoed by the director general of the British Chamber of Commerce, who last month stated emphatically that the current arrangements are

“a barrier to investment and cause an unnecessarily large burden to be placed upon businesses regardless of their ability to pay.”

That is a resounding call to action now.

If this Government will not listen to the overwhelming concerns of British businesses, perhaps they will listen to those on their own Benches, including the right hon. Members for Rossendale and Darwen (Jake Berry) and for Tatton (Esther McVey) who, on behalf of the Northern Research Group and Blue Collar Conservativism respectively, have called on the Chancellor to slash business rates, saying that

“failure to act will risk the party losing a string of northern seats at the next election.”

“Build back better” is not really turning out that way for small businesses.

Small independent businesses, which are the backbone of our communities, should not be made to pay the price for the pandemic. They need support, and they need it now. That is why we brought this debate forward today. I will be interested to hear whether the Minister can tell the House how we can expect to recover if we have let thousands of the businesses that prop up our economy go to the wall, as they have in Ilford South, with that 11% drop.

Just this week, the manager of Ilford business improvement district told me that covid has taken

“a catastrophic toll on many of our stakeholder businesses,”

adding that the majority are

“working their way back from the cliff edge of permanent closure in the midst of supply shortages, staff shortages, rising staff and operational costs”.

That comes on top of the withdrawal of support measures such as the furlough scheme, business rates relief and reductions in VAT.

One hotelier I spoke to expressed concerns about the impact of rising energy costs, the shortage of staff since Brexit and, again, supply chain shortages, which are leading to a never-ending situation of one problem after another. That hotelier, Ikram, and many others like him in Ilford South have requested breathing space in the form of a reduction in business rates, or at least a one- year exemption.

The Government must urgently initiate a full and fundamental review of business rates and look to permanently maintain the reduced 12.5% VAT rate for sectors such as the hospitality industry, as well as considering extending that offer to retail businesses. They must also look to offer further business rates relief and consider a similar phased approach in the next financial year, with a 60% threshold to support businesses.

The Government talk a lot about levelling up; they also need to level the playing field. Amazon and the like have made huge profits during the covid crisis while paying next to nothing in taxes as a proportion of their profit, often undercutting local high street shops and leaving so many high streets with boarded-up shops. We need to shift the burden of business taxation away from the high street and towards global online tech giants by adopting a higher global minimum rate of corporation tax to stop major tax dodging.

The pandemic has shown that taking an economic approach in which we are not afraid to intervene when necessary to protect our workers’ jobs and local businesses is surely better than taking one that sacrifices everything in the name of the market, with public sector commercialisation, communities destroyed by disappearing jobs, national identities distorted and, of course, environmental catastrophe. Pay increases and tax avoidance at the top warp any sense of social inclusion, and progressive and redistributive taxes seem to fall from the political agenda as so many workers face the perpetual slog of longer hours in ever more insecure work as white-collar jobs are outsourced and blue-collar jobs go abroad.

The power and unaccountability of global tech giants is now impacting our very democracy. We must use this moment to lay a different pathway for our economy, because there most definitely is an alternative.

19:07

[Florence Eshalomi (Vauxhall) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is an honour to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Sam Tarry), who raises so many valuable points about businesses up and down the country.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bradford West (Naz Shah) mentioned weddings. I come from a Nigerian background, in which weddings are such a joyous occasion for families and an opportunity for many people to travel to the UK. They come not just for the wedding but to support our local businesses. That is the time when many of those family members have their annual holiday, and they shop, supporting so many businesses, and stay in our hotels. It is not just the wedding industry that benefits; so many other people benefit from having that tourism and trade coming into the UK.

Over the past 19 months, businesses in Vauxhall have really suffered. They have seen footfall through their doors reduce. If we are honest, the measures introduced to tackle coronavirus have led to many businesses having to shut their doors. Others have had to adapt to new ways of commerce, and those that needed to stay open found themselves having to change, in some cases overnight, as the Government guidelines changed.

Many of the businesses in Vauxhall that I have spoken to operate on tight margins for both cost and revenue, and they face another double whammy in the coming months. Not only do they face having to repay large debts that they have stored up because of covid and the Government failure to support some key businesses, but many of the businesses in my constituency have a higher rateable value, so they did not qualify for the business rates relief. They are still struggling now. They have lost a large chunk of the tourists who come through, and they are having to rely on local people to help support them. The Government may have lifted restrictions in the UK, but our high infection rates mean that many countries continue to place restrictions on travel from this country. I chair the South Bank Partnership Forum, which brings together many businesses in and around the south bank. The forum’s figures estimated that 100 million people passed through Waterloo station each year alone. We have not seen those figures come back, and they will probably not come back for a very long time.

We cannot pretend that the impact of this pandemic is over for businesses. The Government need to take real measures to support businesses not just in Vauxhall but right across the country. Saving our high streets is a vital part of that. It makes economic sense, because as many hon. Members have said, high streets provide an economic boost to so many of our communities. I started my working life on our high street in Clapham in Sainsbury’s, in that bright orange uniform many hon. Members may remember, but so many of our high streets and their shops are closing. Yesterday, I met members of Lambeth Pensioners Action Group. They highlighted issues around returning to the high street and getting to the high street.

I hope the Government will listen to all the issues Labour Members have raised and support the motion. We cannot just keep talking about reforming business rates; it is time for us to act and reform them once and for all.

19:10

[Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to respond to this debate, and I thank all hon. and right hon. Members for the contributions they have made. I may not be able to mention them all.

My hon. Friend the Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) talked about the challenges small businesses face. My hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Emma Hardy) talked with passion about her constituency and the importance of connectivity. She invited us all for a drink in Ye Olde White Harte, an offer I am very glad to take up.

From the Government Benches, the hon. Members for Bexhill and Battle (Huw Merriman) and for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) took the St Augustine approach. They were all in favour of business rate reform, just not yet.

The hon. Member for Richmond Park (Sarah Olney) spoke of the plight of the travel industry. My hon. Friend the Member for Pontypridd (Alex Davies-Jones) spoke of the thousands of jobs lost in the music and creative industries, and of the help given to business by the Welsh Labour Government.

The hon. Member for Devizes (Danny Kruger) spoke thoughtfully about the importance of connectivity and the changing role of our high streets. The hon. Member for Stirling (Alyn Smith) spoke about how economic and consumer practices have changed through covid.

My hon. Friends the Members for Bradford West (Naz Shah) and for Vauxhall (Florence Eshalomi) spoke about the crucial importance of the wedding industry and the spin-off industries it gives rise to. My hon. Friend the Member for Islwyn (Chris Evans) spoke of his frustration, shared by many Members, of the baked-in variations in valuation, with no apparent process of redress or appeal. Every single Member who spoke in this debate spoke with passion about their high streets, their constituencies and the small businesses within them.

[Huw Merriman]

The point I would just gently make, on behalf of myself and my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake), is that we called for business rates to be reformed right now and indeed came up with a proposal that would cost it right now, too. I hope the right hon. Gentleman might reflect on that and come up with his own.

[Mr McFadden]

I am happy to talk about our proposals and the hint we got on what the eventual outcome might be.

We tabled this proposal because we want to support Britain’s businesses as they try to recover from the pandemic. Many physical retailers could not trade at all during the pandemic. Consumers changed their habits and went online. Our high streets were shuttered and closed. The problem of business rates is well known and has been for a long time: they are weighted against high streets; they are weighted on physical versus online businesses; and they create negative incentives for investment. If someone invests in their business, does the right thing and does their bit for the transition to a greener economy, their business rates actually go up. It is a 20th-century tax for a 21st-century economy.

Our calls for reform have met with widespread support from the business community. UKHospitality says that the biggest cost danger in sight for the hospitality sector is the reintroduction of business rates from 2022. The Federation of Small Businesses said that business rates

“hits firms before they’ve even made a pound in turnover.”

The CBI said that business rates are

“literally…a tax on investment”.

The British Retail Consortium found that without a reduction in rates next year, 83% of retailers said that it was “very likely” or “certain” that they might have to close stores. The Institute for Family Business has also backed this call.

In the short term, businesses need help. That is why our proposal, in the motion before the House, sets out positive steps that will help businesses right now: a freeze on business rates; an increase in the threshold for small business rate reliefs; and a proposal that is fully costed and fully funded.

The Government know that business rates need reform. That is why they launched a review 15 months ago, but where is it? Where are the conclusions? Where is the Chancellor’s plan on business rates? Has it not been published because he is fighting with No. 10 about it, as he is over climate change? Has he not published it because he is fighting with the Business Secretary, as he is on industrial support?

But we did get a clue as to what the preference of Government Members is, because many Members went for the Tory party’s three favourite initials: VAT. Time and again in Government, when they have needed to raise money, they have gone for VAT. We do not yet know what the conclusions of the business rate review will be, but the prospect of the VATman returning is certainly possible given the contributions that we have heard today.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr McFadden]

I cannot; I have to watch the clock. We put forward a plan both for the short term and the long term, but this is not just about business rates, is it? This is about the broader relationship between politics and business. The Opposition want a partnership with business to help the country to recover from the covid pandemic. We will not blame businesses for every shortage of workers or every shortage of goods. We will not use business as a weapon in ideological battles, as we saw throughout every day of the recent Conservative party conference. And we certainly will not go down the absurd road of trying to retrofit a justification for shortages and problems by claiming that they were part of some plan all along. When there is chaos at the pumps, blame business. When there is chaos at the ports, blame business. When there are shortages on the shelves, blame business. We have heard far too much of that from the Conservative party in recent weeks and, because of that, it has forfeited its right to be called the party of business.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr McFadden]

I will not. And the Conservative party willingly gave that up by putting ideology in its place. When the Prime Minister said “f*** business”, some of us thought it was a quip. We did not expect to see it followed through by briefings on and off the record that business is part of the problem and not part of the solution.

Any serious party of Government has to take wealth creation as seriously as it does wealth distribution. It has to celebrate entrepreneurs, not blame them. It has to champion creativity and innovation. It has to move its policies in line with economic change and the ceaseless process of technological change. That is what we on the Opposition side of the House are doing. Businesses will find, in today’s Labour party, a ready partner that wants to see them grow and see a fair deal for their employees; that wants to see both prosperity and security for the people who work in business; and that will work with business, not blame them for the failures and consequences of Government decisions. That is what this motion is about, that is what this argument is about, and that is the case we will continue to make.

19:18

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)]

I thank all hon. Members for their contributions. First, can we celebrate and commend the small businesses up and down the country that have been so hard-pressed during the pandemic, especially in the areas that we have heard about today—hospitality, retail, leisure, tourism and indeed travel?

Businesses have shown incredible resilience throughout the pandemic and it is right that we support them, as the Government have done with £352 billion-worth of immediate financial support through loans, grants, the furlough scheme and various reliefs. That leaves us, as free market Conservatives who do not believe in big interventions but who are the Government with probably the biggest intervention since the war, with 352 billion reasons to get the recovery right and build resilience into our economy.

All I have heard from Opposition Members for nearly three hours is re-diagnosis of the problems. We can all agree that business rates need reform: that is why the Chancellor launched the fundamental business rates review. It is not starting now; we are concluding it now. It is looking at the entire scope of the business rates system, from the multiplier and reliefs for plant and machinery to billing, the administration of the system and alternative taxes. All those matters are being looked at and the report will be coming in the autumn.

I have heard nothing from the Opposition as an actual response. One can say that everything is funded and costed, but saying that does not mean that it is actually there. We have heard pledges from the Opposition to scrap business rates; that is £26 billion, and we have heard nothing about how it will be paid for. We have heard about freezing business rates until the end of the financial year; that is another £6 billion. What are they going to do to pay for it?

We heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Bexhill and Battle (Huw Merriman), who talked about changing high streets, and from my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake), who proposed changes to VAT. He made a cogent argument, albeit a controversial one—at least he came up with a solution that he had costed and threw it into the mix. That is the difference between Government Members and the Opposition: we come up with solutions that businesses can understand and that we can debate and work through.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Tom Hunt) was accused of talking down his area. Actually, he was talking about the issues that he is tackling and that he is bringing together and convening people to tackle, such as antisocial behaviour. He is doing things like that through the town deal that he is championing. He raised the future high streets fund, which is already bringing empty properties back into use—there is a lot of infrastructure going on and it is already delivering upgrades. He also talked about shopping parades. It is really important that we talk about retail parks and shopping parades as well as high streets: they are part of the ecosystem of our local economy.

[Kevin Hollinrake]

The shadow Chancellor did present a short-term solution: a sixfold increase in the digital services tax. Does my hon. Friend agree that when we implemented the digital services tax, Amazon added that 2% straight on to the prices of the merchants on its site? Does he accept that if there were an increase, it would be passed directly to consumers?

[Paul Scully]

My hon. Friend raises a really important point. We also heard about business rates being scrapped and replaced with a property tax—on a property that would presumably be owned by a business, and I guess we could use our rating system to work it out. Essentially, that is just semantics, not a systematic and effective way of replacing business rates. That is why the fundamental review is so important.

My hon. Friend the Member for Wantage (David Johnston) made a comparison to Chris Hemsworth and talked about the Great British Mead Company, which reminds me of the importance of the hospitality sector as part of the ecosystem of our local and night-time economy and indeed the high street. My hon. Friend the Member for Devizes (Danny Kruger) talked about opportunity and connectivity, which are at the heart of what we are doing to allow high streets to bounce back further.

All I have heard is negativity from the Opposition with no answer, but we are making sure that the 352 billion reasons to allow the economy to bounce back are as effective as possible. Our plan is working. Our unemployment rate is at less than 5% and falling, which is lower than France, America, Canada, Italy and Spain. We have one of the fastest recoveries of any major economy in the world, and GDP is growing. That shows that the Government’s approach is a success and that we have fostered the right environment for the economy to grow.

The Labour party will never admit this, but the UK is a great place to do business. We have the lowest corporate tax rates in the G20, and the kind of lean regulation that puts us in the global top ten for ease of doing business. Next year, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy will publish an enterprise strategy which will explain how we want to revive Britain’s spirit of enterprise and help more people to start and scale up a business.

It is easy to see why the UK is consistently home to one of the largest and most resilient economies in the world. All this underlies the reason why it has long been a great place to do business, and why we are seeing so much excitement in the rest of the world about investing in the UK. People are queuing up to spend at the global investment summit that is being held today. In the last 10 months, we have already seen a flurry of spending in the UK: there is to be a gigafactory in Sunderland, Ford and Stellantis are churning out electric vehicles in the north-west, and GE Renewable Energy and others are creating an offshore wind hub in Teesside. Those projects constitute a huge vote of confidence in the UK as a place to do business as we recover from the pandemic.

We have been there for small businesses since the start of the pandemic, we are there for them now, and we will be there for them for as long as they need us. I want to ensure that as we move forward into this area of recovery, we build resilience into our economy as well. We will do that through the fundamental review of business rates and through our enterprise strategy, and by making sure that we stand behind our businesses.

Question put:

19:26

Division 85

Ayes: 215

---

Labour: 163
Scottish National Party: 30
Liberal Democrat: 10
Democratic Unionist Party: 3
Social Democratic & Labour Party: 2
Independent: 2
Plaid Cymru: 2
Alliance: 1

Noes: 298

---

Conservative: 295

Business without Debate

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Commons Chamber

Delegated Legislation

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Commons Chamber

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),

Water Industry

That the draft Water and Sewerage Undertakers (Exit from Non-Household Retail Market) (Consequential Provision) Regulations 2021, which were laid before this House on 20 July, be approved.—(Scott Mann.)

Question agreed to.

Committees

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Commons Chamber

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Eleanor Laing)]

With the leave of the House, we will take motions 7 to 11 together.

Digital, Culture, Media and Sport

Ordered,

That Damian Hinds and Mrs Heather Wheeler be discharged from the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport Committee and Simon Jupp and Jane Stevenson be added.

Education

That David Johnston and David Simmonds be discharged from the Education Committee and Miriam Cates and Brendan Clarke-Smith be added.

Housing, Communities and Local Government

That Ian Levy be discharged from the Housing, Communities and Local Government Committee and Matt Vickers be added.

Science and Technology

That Andrew Griffith be discharged from the Science and Technology Committee and Dehenna Davison be added.

Treasury

That Steve Baker be discharged from the Treasury Committee and Gareth Davies be added.—(Bill Wiggin, on behalf of the Committee of Selection.)

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

It is very good to see the hon. Member for North Herefordshire (Bill Wiggin) here in person, instead of on all those screens; lately, I had to see him nine times when we did these motions, so it is lovely to see him only once.

Petition

Fossil Fuel Industry: Regulation of Investments

Tuesday 19th October 2021 Commons Chamber

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Scott Mann.)

19:42

[Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) (Lab)]

In 1998, a PR consultant was working with big fossil fuel companies. He was grappling with a problem: the Kyoto protocol had just been signed. This landmark agreement reflected the scientific consensus that human-made carbon dioxide emissions were driving global warming and threatening climate catastrophe. It committed Governments to cutting carbon to avert this calamity. But for the PR consultant and fossil fuel companies, this was not a step forward—it was an existential problem. If Governments cut carbon, that would mean less oil bought and sold. It would mean smaller dividends for big oil’s shareholders and smaller bonuses for executives. Profits for fossil fuel companies were under threat, and they could not have that.

So the PR consultant devised a plan. In a memo to the trade association of the fossil fuel companies, he outlined a plan: a comprehensive, international campaign to change public opinion on the climate emergency. The plan aimed to cast doubt on the scientific consensus, by funding think tanks and media campaigns, and buying off a tiny minority of scientists. The campaign aimed to manufacture doubt about the science of the climate emergency. The PR consultant wrote that the goal of the project was for the public to “recognise that significant uncertainties exist in climate science.”

Victory, he said, would be achieved when

“those promoting the Kyoto treaty on the basis of science, appear to be out of touch with reality.”

But it was not that the fossil fuel companies were ignorant of the science—far from it. In 1979, a paper from the global oil giant Exxon said that the burning of fossil fuels

“will cause dramatic environmental effects in the coming decades.”

A few years later, another memo warned of the “potentially catastrophic” consequences of a refusal to cut emissions. In 1982, an internal document admitted that the science was “unanimous”. But because their profits were threatened, fossil fuel companies buried the truth. Just as the PR consultant advised, the companies poured millions into think-tanks, scientists and politicians who spread climate denial. In 2001, when President George W. Bush rejected the Kyoto protocol and its ambition to cut emissions, he told a fossil fuel-funded lobby group that his decision was

“in part, based on input from you”.

Today, although the fossil fuel industry’s methods might have been updated, its aim remains the same. More than 95% of the expenditure of fossil fuel giants such as BP is on oil and gas, but they spend millions on advertising campaigns that boast about their meagre low-carbon energy output.

[Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)]

I thank the hon. Lady for bringing this important issue to the House for this Adjournment debate. Does she agree that our eco-responsibility can and does extend into all aspects of our lives? Does she accept that we have a fiscal responsibility to ensure that any divestment of pension funds does not result in slashed pensions but enables investors to be beneficiaries in not only conscience but finance?

[Zarah Sultana]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that contribution. I will come on to our pension fund and our responsibility to divest, especially as we are hosting COP, which brings urgency to that.

Shell has spent $84 billion on fossil fuel exploration and development in the space of a few years, but it then asks its social media followers what consumers need to do to cut carbon. As a Harvard expert on the fossil fuel industry’s lobbying put it, these companies have gone from “blatant” denialism to

“more subtle and insidious forms of delayism.”

This is just the tip of the iceberg. The fossil fuel industry’s historical record is being uncovered, showing how it has spent decades propagating climate denialism and disinformation—protecting its profits while endangering our future. There is no doubt about it: these companies do not have our welfare at heart. They do not have the same interests as my constituents. What is good for fossil fuel billionaires spells disaster for children in Coventry’s schools. If there are profits to be made, these companies will extract and exploit, burning fossil fuels and our planet along with them.

Next month, Britain hosts COP26. We have a responsibility to show leadership on the world stage, demonstrating that we will rise to this historic challenge with the bold actions needed to avert climate catastrophe, taking on fossil fuel executives and transforming our economy for people and planet. Here is how the House must contribute to this historic task. First, Members of this House past and present are automatically members of a pension fund—a fund that invests in climate-destroying fossil fuel companies. Put simply, our pensions fund environmental destruction. For younger Members like me, on current trajectories, by the time I am old enough for my pension, temperatures will have soared well above the 1.5°C required by the Paris agreement, collapsing food systems, melting ice caps and causing extreme weather to become the norm.

With the world’s eyes now on us, we in this House can demonstrate real leadership by divesting Parliament from fossil fuels, and showing public commitment to taking our money out of the deadly fossil fuel industry and instead putting it to the public good and investing in the green technologies of the future. More than 360 current and former MPs from all parties in the House have pledged to support the Divest Parliament campaign. Under that pressure, and after letters from myself and colleagues, investments in the fossil fuel industry have fallen, but they have not been eliminated. There is still no plan to align our pensions with the 1.5°C global heating limit, and the full portfolio of investments remains a secret. So, as we prepare to host COP26 we in this House are still funding climate destruction. Here is my message to the pension fund trustees today: reveal the fund’s full investment; divest fully from fossil fuels; and show that this House will lead the fight to save our planet.

Back-Bench Members can do only so much. Real change must come from those on the Government Front Bench, because while the Government hide behind empty slogans and meagre promises, they back investment in new fossil fuel projects—from the Cambo oilfield where 170 million barrels of oil are set to be extracted, which will emit more than 10 times Scotland’s annual carbon output, pouring fuel on the fire of a burning planet, to investments abroad such as the Mozambique liquid natural gas project, to which the Government pledged more than $1 billion in financial support, fuelling not just climate breakdown, but human rights abuses, too.

Then there are the subsidies that the Government provide to the fossil fuel sector, recently estimated to be as much as £12.8 billion a year, ranking the UK as one of the worst of the OECD nations. These subsidies mean that, while Shell reportedly paid the Norwegian Government £1.3 billion in taxes in a year, in the UK, Shell itself was paid a rebate of £72 million of public money. That is scandalous. The Government cannot hide behind misleading definitions and technicalities and they must stop subsidising an industry that is killing our planet.

Then there is the role of British banks. The Government like to boast about London being the heart of the global financial system, but forget to mention that British banks are world leaders in funding fossil fuel companies. UK banks Barclays and HSBC rank among the worst in the world, having provided £158 billion in fossil fuel finance since the Paris agreement was signed, handing the likes of Shell and BP the fortunes they need to extract the fuels that are setting our world alight.

If we are to avert climate catastrophe, in place of a financial system that puts fossil fuel profits before people and planet we need a wholesale rewiring of financial institutions, putting capital to work for the public good, not private greed. We need a much wider economic transformation, too. We need a programme of change to avert climate catastrophe and to transform our economy and society in the interests of the many. That is the green new deal. I am proud to be co-sponsoring the Green New Deal Bill, alongside colleagues including the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) and my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich South (Clive Lewis).

The green new deal recognises the urgency of tackling climate breakdown, with a 2030 net zero target—not the 2050 target that condemns us to climate catastrophe—and it would reach that target through decarbonisation with the interests of working people front and centre. Yes, it means rapidly winding down and repurposing the fossil fuel industry by taking majority public stakes in fossil fuel companies, but doing so while every worker impacted gets a Government-backed jobs guarantee, ensuring that they get a well-paid, unionised job and are not left on the scrapheap as has happened in past industrial transitions.

The green new deal would not stop there. It would initiate a massive state-led programme of investment in green industries, from building the wind farms and solar panels to power our future to generating the low-carbon jobs in care and teaching that our communities need. Our Bill spells out how this programme would create millions of good, well-paid unionised jobs, and it would not be paid for off the backs of our workers. It spells out that a green new deal would raise income taxes only on the highest earners and introduce a wealth tax to make the super-rich pay their fair share. To transition from an economy that relies on fossil fuels that kill our planet, it would bring industries such as rail, energy and water into public ownership to rapidly cut carbon, building a high-tech, low emissions, publicly owned transport of the future.

So long as this Government and this House—us MPs—fund the fossil fuel industry, backing new projects such as the Cambo oilfield and pipelines across southern Africa, they can speak with no authority at COP26. They are not part of the answer to the climate emergency; they are simply part of the problem. Instead of investing in fossil fuels, it is time to invest in a green new deal. There is no time to waste.

19:54

[The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (John Glen)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Coventry South (Zarah Sultana) on securing this debate on an issue that we all agree is of crucial importance. I will do my best to do justice to this broad and complex issue in the allotted time, focusing my remarks on my brief as Economic Secretary to the Treasury, with oversight of financial services, which the hon. Lady mentioned on a number of occasions.

Let me begin by stating the obvious: the Government take their responsibility to tackle climate change extremely seriously. That is why in June 2019 the UK became the first major economy to legislate to end our net contribution to climate change by 2050, increasing the ambition of existing commitments under the Climate Change Act 2008, which was introduced by the Labour Government in that year. Just today, we published our net zero strategy, outlining measures to transition to a green and sustainable future.

The hon. Lady is right to highlight the crucial role of finance and investment in addressing the challenge of climate change. I am pleased to reassure her that we are implementing a credible, practical plan to align that investment to climate change goals, with multiple strands of activity, including engagement with the oil and gas industry, the greening of finance and action on the international stage.

Our view is that we need actively to engage with and work with fossil fuel companies to get them to reform, and that approach is working. Earlier this year, we agreed the North sea transition deal with the oil and gas industry, to support workers, businesses and the supply chain in preparation for a net zero future by 2050, including the reduction of emissions by 50% by 2030. We also agreed joint Government and oil and gas sector investment of up to £16 billion by 2030 to reduce carbon emissions, with up to £3 billion to replace fossil fuel-based power supplies on oil and gas platforms with renewable energy, up to £3 billion on carbon capture, usage and storage, and up to £10 billion for hydrogen production. Indeed, since 2010 more than £94 billion has been invested in clean energy in the UK.

From my perspective as City Minister, we clearly also need continuous and increasing green investment right across the board, as the hon. Lady called for. I am delighted that yesterday we published “A Roadmap to Sustainable Investing”, which will help every financial decision—and decision maker—to take climate and the environment into account.

[Zarah Sultana]

Does the Minister support the call that I made in my speech to divest from fossil fuels in our pensions fund? Will the Government support the more than 360 MPs who are supporting the Divest Parliament campaign? It is really important to make the statement ahead of COP26 that this House is committed to divesting, fully and immediately, from fossil fuels.

[John Glen]

It is absolutely the case that the UK pensions and investment sectors—asset owners, asset managers and the service providers that support them—have an important role to play, using their influence and ownership rights over investee companies while fulfilling those fiduciary responsibilities. The Financial Reporting Council’s stewardship code 2020 sets that gold standard for such stewardship activities. The Government expect asset owners, managers and their service providers to progress work on stewardship within their organisation. That will obviously be a matter for the trustees of individual funds to attend to.

The roadmap on sustainable investment sets out details of the new whole-economy sustainability disclosure requirements—the legislative and regulatory changes that will be made to deliver world-leading reporting standards for environmental sustainability. Under these changes, companies and investment products will, for the first time, need to set out the environmental impact of the activities that they finance according to a universal definition of green. At the same time, products must clearly justify any sustainability claims that they make. It is our expectation that firms will use this information to actively engage with investee companies and encourage businesses and shareholders to set, and act on, credible net zero transition plans.

But I recognise that Government too must take action. Another part of our strategy has therefore been to establish markets to mobilise private capital. That is the thinking behind our green gilt, the first issuance of which last month was the largest ever sovereign green bond issuance, of £10 billion, and was 10 times over-subscribed. It is also part of the rationale for the creation of the UK Infrastructure Bank, which has a specific mandate to help tackle climate change, particularly the transition to net zero by 2050. I was pleased just last week to meet John Flint, the chief executive, who is putting together the team at the UK Infrastructure Bank in Leeds to move forward the investment decisions, and that organisation, as quickly as possible.

Looking at the financial numbers, there are already some grounds for optimism. The UK’s world-leading investment banks are consistently ranked at the top of the global green and sustainable debt underwriting league tables. In the UK, almost half—49%—of the £9.4 trillion in assets were integrating ESG, or environmental, social and governance, in their investment processes last year, up from a reported 37% the previous year. In other words, as City Minister I see a sector that is increasingly innovating and investing in green. On the hon. Lady’s point, that does not mean that we are complacent, but it does demonstrate the irreversible direction that has been set and the progress that is rapidly being made.

We need to remember that this is also a global problem requiring a global solution, as the hon. Lady acknowledged. That is not an excuse for inaction but rather a simple acknowledgement of the reality. The Government are acting nationally and internationally, and here there are some further reasons for optimism. As a country, we need to be part of a global effort to turn this around, and we are, including as host of next month’s COP26 conference. About 70% of the world’s economy is now covered by net zero targets, up from less than 30% when the UK took on the presidency of COP26. Under the UK’s presidency, all G7 countries committed to put an end to funding fossil fuels and coal power this year. Japan and South Korea have said that they will end public financing for overseas coal-fired power plants, with China then committing to not building any new coal power plants overseas.

When it comes to transitioning the finance sector, too, we are part of an international effort. In April, the UK played a key role in the launch of the Glasgow Financial Alliance for Net Zero. When the UK assumed the COP presidency in partnership with Italy 18 months ago, $5 trillion of private financial assets were committed to net zero. Now 300 financial institutions across 40 countries, controlling balance sheets of $100 trillion, are co-ordinating their efforts under this alliance.

I agree with the hon. Lady that the stakes are high, but I hope I have shown that the Government are acting on many fronts in engaging, legislating and investing. I am certainly not complacent, just as the Government as a whole are not complacent. We will continue to do all that we can and all that needs to be done to address this global and significant challenge.

Question put and agreed to.

20:03

House adjourned.