House of Commons

Thursday 30th January 2014 Commons Chamber

Thursday 30 January 2014

The House met at half-past Nine o’clock

Prayers

Thursday 30th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Oral Answers to Questions

Thursday 30th January 2014 Commons Chamber

The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport was asked—

[Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)]

1. What funding her Department is making available to ensure the final 10% of premises get access to superfast broadband.

[Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con)]

5. What funding her Department is making available to ensure the final 10% of premises get access to superfast broadband.

[The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Maria Miller)]

The Government have committed a further £250 million to extend superfast broadband to 95% of UK premises by 2017. In addition, we are investing £10 million to find ways to provide superfast broadband to the hardest-to-reach and remotest premises.

[Sarah Newton]

I welcome my right hon. Friend’s answer. Many homes and businesses are indeed benefiting from superfast broadband, but important local employers are not, such as the Nare hotel on the beautiful but remote Roseland peninsula. What further assurances can she give such businesses on how they can expect to receive superfast broadband?

[Maria Miller]

I know that my hon. Friend takes a great interest in this. I think she will be pleased that the existing £132 million Superfast Cornwall project is already delivering superfast broadband to 82% of homes in her area, and there will be further opportunities to extend coverage with the additional £250 million that we have announced. Projects in her area will clearly be eligible to bid for such funding.

[Andrew Bingham]

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer and for those assurances. In my constituency of High Peak, which is very rural, many farms and businesses are in the last 10%. They have many other below-spec utilities, such as poor electricity supplies, and it is crucial they get good quality, fast broadband. It is as important for the last 10% as it is for the first 10%.

[Maria Miller]

As I am sure my hon. Friend knows, the Government are already investing more than £7 million in superfast broadband in Derbyshire, and the additional money that we have pledged—£250 million—will give further coverage in his area, but it will be up to the local authority to ensure that it is targeted in the right way. I am sure he will work with the local authority to ensure that that is done well.

[Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)]

More than a third of all new properties benefiting from superfast broadband are in Wales. Will the Secretary of State applaud the Welsh Assembly Government for their success in that area, and what does she think she can learn from Wales for England?

[Maria Miller]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for bringing up the situation in Wales. Of course, the coalition Government are proud to have ensured that that funding was in place to make that happen for the people of Wales. As he will know, if it was up to the Labour party, all that the people of Wales would be receiving by now is 2 megabits, which would absolutely not have been right for businesses in his area.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

There appear to be a large number of businesses and houses in my constituency, right in the centre of Edinburgh, that will not get superfast broadband in the foreseeable future. I have been in touch with the right hon. Lady’s Department, the Scottish Government, the council and BT, but nobody seems to be able to offer any hope that we will get superfast broadband. What is she going to do about it?

[Maria Miller]

As I am sure the hon. Gentleman knows, it is important for the Scottish Government to address such issues. I was pleased to see BT pledge only this week to put an extra £50 million into exactly the sorts of areas he is talking about—city-centre areas where that is currently not commercially viable. I welcome that extra investment from BT.

[Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con)]

18. While I obviously welcome progress on rural broadband, certain parts of my constituency, including the Lenches and Abbots Morton, are really struggling. Will my right hon. Friend meet me and key stakeholders in those areas to try to find some solutions?

[Maria Miller]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that we have to keep up the pressure to ensure that we have superfast broadband where it is needed for all the different groups that can benefit. Either I or the Under-Secretary of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Wantage (Mr Vaizey), would be delighted to meet her and her constituents, because we want to ensure, working with those providing this vital infrastructure service, that it is getting to the right people in a speedy manner.

[Helen Goodman (Bishop Auckland) (Lab)]

The Secretary of State knows that 5 million people in rural areas still do not have broadband connection. Really, she must admit that the £10 million is just a stop—a sop, I mean—to divert attention from the devastating Public Accounts Committee report. Can she guarantee that the £250 million she mentioned will not all go to one provider, and can she explain how it is good value for money to pay £52 for a connection in a rural area but £3,000 for a connection in a super-connected city?

[Maria Miller]

I am not sure that the shadow Minister had a total grasp of her question. Perhaps she needs to catch up with some of her councillors on the ground who have a better grasp than she does. I am particularly thinking of County Councillor Sean Serridge, a champion for digital inclusion in Lancashire—one of her councillors, I think—who has said that the work we are doing in his area

“is a great achievement and shows that we are well on the way to achieving our goal of providing 97 per cent of the county with superfast broadband by the end of next year.”

The difference between the hon. Lady and me is that we are getting on with it, while she is just still talking about it.

[Mr Speaker]

The hon. Member for Bishop Auckland (Helen Goodman) is clearly in a very jolly mood, and I hope that it is contagious.

[Tim Farron (Westmorland and Lonsdale) (LD)]

We are all very jolly in Cumbria that 93% of our homes will be connected to superfast broadband by this time next year. The fact that 7% will not be and will have a minimum of 2 megabits per second download speed should trouble us, particularly when we realise that that means an upload speed of only 0.2 megabits per second, which causes serious problems for businesses in areas that are not connected. What can my right hon. Friend do to guarantee that the 7% of businesses and residences that do not have superfast broadband are helped?

[Maria Miller]

My hon. Friend makes a really important point. That is why we have put in place a £10 million fund to look at how we can get to hard-to-reach places with new technology and new ways of doing things. He is right that superfast broadband is one of the most important infrastructure projects that this Government are putting in place. We are doing the hard work that the Labour party did not do when they were in government. The results speak for themselves: coverage in the UK is higher than in Germany, France, Italy and Spain and, what is more, our broadband lines are cheaper as well.

[Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)]

2. What discussions she has had with the Scottish Government on the clustering of betting shops and fixed odds betting terminals.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mrs Helen Grant)]

The Administrations for Scotland and Wales were consulted during the Government’s review of gaming machine stake and prize limits, which was published in October 2013, and my predecessor wrote to the Scottish Parliament on these issues in 2013.

[Ann McKechin]

The number of bookmakers in the city of Glasgow has increased by 20% in the past seven years, and millions of pounds have been lost from our poorest communities—a situation that has been replicated right across the United Kingdom. The city council has asked the Scottish Government for powers to limit the number of bookmakers in such communities, and I ask the Minister, when she next has contact with the Scottish Government, to work with them, so that there is co-ordinated action across the United Kingdom to empower local authorities with the ability to control the number of bookmakers in local areas to suit their circumstances.

[Mrs Grant]

I hear what the hon. Lady says, but we believe that local authorities are already so empowered. Local authorities in England, Scotland and Wales have powers to ensure public protection by using licensing conditions afforded by the Gambling Act 2005 brought in by the Government of the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman). However, planning is a devolved matter, and it is therefore for the Scottish Government to decide.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

I refer to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.

Will the Minister confirm that the recent independent health survey showed that considerably more of the richest people in the country played on fixed odds betting terminals than the poorest, unlike scratchcards, which 16-years-old can play and which considerably more of the poorest people in the country play than the richest? Does that not demonstrate that Labour Members’ problems with fixed odds betting terminals is not about who the money comes from to put into them, but about who the money goes to in terms of their prejudice against bookmakers? If the money from FOBTs went to good causes, would there be any campaign against FOBTs?

[Mrs Grant]

My hon. Friend makes a number of points, and I am not too sure which one to answer. The health survey for England made it quite clear that there is no correlation between deprivation and the clustering of betting shops on high streets.

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

Will the Minister comment on the recent document published by William Hill, which for the first time recognises the social problems involved with the clustering of betting shops? It quite clearly says that this could be tackled by amendments and changes to the Gambling Act 2005.

[Mrs Grant]

I repeat what I have just said, which is that local authorities already have powers to control clustering and to control concerns on their high streets that need to be dealt with. Article 4 directions have been very recently used by Southwark and by Barking and Dagenham, while Newham has used licensing conditions very recently.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that although it is quite legitimate for people to have concerns about the number of bookmakers on our high streets, the fact is that the number of bookmakers in this country in recent years has remained relatively stable at between 8,000 and 9,000, which is well below the peak of 16,000 in the 1960s?

[Mrs Grant]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. We need to remember that gambling is a legal activity and is enjoyed safely by many people right across the country.

[Clive Efford (Eltham) (Lab)]

The review of category B machines affects Scotland as much as any other part of the country. In answer to a question about FOBTs from my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition on 8 January, the Prime Minister said:

“We will be reporting in the spring as a result of the review that is under way, and I think it is important that we get to grips with this.”—[Official Report, 8 January 2014; Vol. 573, c. 295.]

Will the Minister confirm that we will get to grips with FOBTs in betting shops in the spring and that, most importantly, that will include a review of the £100 stake and £500 prize money maximums?

[Mrs Grant]

We have been getting to grips with that since we came to power in 2010. For the record, in 1997 there were no FOBTs, yet by 2010, when the Labour party was removed from power, there were more than 30,000. I am afraid that I will not take any lessons from the shadow Minister, as we are the ones who are gathering the evidence, pushing the industry to provide data and taking problem gambling seriously for the first time.

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

3. What assessment she has made of the effect of pre-watershed advertising on young people.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

We have not made an assessment, but I assure the hon. Lady that we take very seriously the need for regulation that is fit for purpose, especially on content that is seen by children and young people. The Broadcast Committee of Advertising Practice has specific codes on advertising to children, which are administered independently by the Advertising Standards Authority.

[Julie Hilling]

But the number of gambling commercials has increased by about 1.3 million since 2005 and doubled since 2010. Will the Minister back Labour’s call for a review of pre-watershed gambling advertising to ensure that those adverts are not influencing children to gamble?

[Mr Vaizey]

I assure the hon. Lady that we are working with the Gambling Commission, the Advertising Standards Authority and Ofcom to examine the impact that such advertising may be having on the licensing objectives in the Gambling Act 2005, which include the protection of children and vulnerable people.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

4. What assessment she has made of the UK’s cultural and sporting assets as tools of cultural diplomacy and the role they play in extending the UK’s influence.

[The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Maria Miller)]

The UK’s cultural and sporting assets are of enormous value in cultural diplomacy. They enhance the UK’s influence, reputation and soft power around the world.

[Justin Tomlinson]

The 2012 Olympic and Paralympic games and the enduring success of the premier league ably demonstrate how British sport can put us on the world map. Does the Secretary of State agree that more can be done to exploit our sporting reputation through the British Council as a means of extending British influence overseas?

[Maria Miller]

My hon. Friend is right to recognise the valuable role that London 2012 played in taking Britain’s image around the world. It is an enduring legacy. He is also right that we can do more, and the British Council, together with UK Sport and national governing bodies, can certainly do a great deal to enhance and strengthen our influence. The sports Minister, my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant), recently met the chief executive officer of the British Council to discuss precisely that.

[Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab)]

What assessment has the Secretary of State made of the potential role of the UK’s cultural and sporting assets in advancing human rights, specifically lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender rights? There is some evidence that in Africa and the Caribbean in particular things are going backwards on gay rights, not forwards. Surely some soft diplomacy on the issue could help.

[Maria Miller]

The hon. Lady raises an extremely important point. We want to increase participation in cultural and sporting activities for all, and that is at the heart of the work that the Arts Council and Sport England are doing. She is also right to say that LGBT rights in particular have a natural partnership with culture, and I have been examining that, particularly in this, the year of culture that we have with Russia.

[Mr John Whittingdale (Maldon) (Con)]

Does my right hon. Friend agree that soft power is all the more important in increasing understanding between ourselves and countries with which we may have differences of view? She has just referred to the forthcoming UK-Russia year of culture. May I invite her and the shadow Secretary of State to join me at the launch of that event in this place on 24 February, in advance of her attending the winter Olympics in Sochi?

[Maria Miller]

My hon. Friend’s invitation is kind, and I will certainly see whether I am able to attend that event, although I think he will know that the games start next week.

I agree with my hon. Friend that there is a huge opportunity to utilise the role of culture in developing our relations with a whole host of nations. I was pleased to sign a cultural agreement with my counterpart on my recent visit to China, and in the past 12 months we have also signed a cultural agreement with South Korea. He is right that the UK-Russia year of culture will be an enormously important opportunity.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

I have been slightly pre-empted by other Members mentioning the UK-Russia year of culture. It was reported in December that Sir Ian McKellen was advised by the Foreign Office not to travel to Russia because he is gay. How does the Secretary of State think we can use cultural diplomacy to overcome some of the issues with LGBT rights in Russia, and should we not use people such as Sir Ian and encourage him to go to Russia to make the case?

[Maria Miller]

I am not aware that the FCO would make that sort of advice available to people, although it is obviously important that we advise people on security issues, as we do in relation to many nations. The hon. Lady is right to say that we can use culture and cultural links to advance many human rights issues. When I visited Moscow and St Petersburg in December to discuss the year of culture, I used that opportunity to meet a wide selection of human rights organisations, including those that support people on issues of domestic violence.

[Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)]

6. What plans she has to bring forward legislative proposals in respect of football governance and finance.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mrs Helen Grant)]

I will continue to work with football authorities to press for improvements in the game. They have made some significant changes, but my expectation is that they can, and will, make further progress. We will move to legislate if football fails in that task.

[Mr Cunningham]

I am sure the Minister knows about the dispute between Coventry city council and Coventry football club, since I and my colleagues have made representations to her Department in the past. The Culture, Media and Sport Committee report on football governance from July 2011 found the Football Association in need of urgent reform and called on the Government to introduce legislation if drastic changes were not made. In April 2013, the then sports Minister stated that he agreed with the Committee and that his officials had started working up a draft Bill. Where is the Bill? Let us have some action.

[Mr Speaker]

I think some of these matters could be usefully pursued through Adjournment debates, and will probably have to be.

[Mrs Grant]

Football authorities introduced reforms in August last year, including smaller boards and a new licensing system to deal with ownership, financial matters and supporter liaison and engagement. A start has been made, but much more needs to be done. As I have stated, if more is not done there is always the option to legislate.

[Mr Speaker]

If I gently hint at shorter questions and answers; then we might make more progress.

[Damian Collins (Folkestone and Hythe) (Con)]

Further to the question asked by the hon. Member for Coventry South (Mr Cunningham), will the Minister consider publishing the draft Bill and supporting documentation referred to by the previous sports Minister and place them in the House of Commons Library?

[Mrs Grant]

I will consider that request and write to my hon. Friend.

[Mr Gerry Sutcliffe (Bradford South) (Lab)]

There is all-party support for the changes to football legislation mentioned in the Select Committee report and I urge the Minister to keep the pressure on. Otherwise, experience shows that football authorities think we have gone away. Football supporters want to see change.

[Mrs Grant]

Rest assured that we will.

[Mr John Leech (Manchester, Withington) (LD)]

Whether it is financial mismanagement that results in clubs losing their grounds, or bonkers owners trying to change team names or team colours, surely it is time for parliamentary intervention to protect the rights and interests of fans.

[Mrs Grant]

I agree to a large extent with my hon. Friend. Our hope is that football authorities will make the changes that need to be made, but if they do not, there is always the option of legislation.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Will the Minister join me in endorsing the Swansea City football club model in which the supporters trust owns 20% of the club and sits on the board of directors? Last year the club reported a profit of £15.3 million, following a £14.6 million profit the previous year. Surely that is the way forward for football governance.

[Mrs Grant]

That sounds a very interesting model and, of course, it is for football authorities to agree what works best. I think there is a place for all types of ownership, and supporters will always have the best interests of their clubs at heart. I am delighted that AFC Wimbledon, Brentford and Exeter City are now owned fully or partly by supporters. I have had recent meetings with Supporters Direct and the Football Supporters Federation, and I look forward to working with them closely on a number of projects.

[Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)]

7. What steps she is taking to protect football referees from inappropriate and abusive behaviour.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mrs Helen Grant)]

I continue to work with the football authorities to press for improvements. I deplore all forms of bad behaviour on the football pitch, including that directed towards referees. I welcome the FA’s recent work on respect within the game, including reducing assaults against referees by 21% since 2011.

[Mr Jones]

In recent months, two referees officiating the Nuneaton and district Sunday league have been badly assaulted by players. Because those incidents take place on the pitch, the authorities do not apply the same gravity to them as they would if they happened elsewhere. What more can the Minister do to protect referees in the amateur game?

[Mrs Grant]

I am appalled to hear of the physical assaults against those two referees, who have no doubt done excellent work in my hon. Friend’s constituency. The FA and Sport England have invested £60 million in the programme on raising standards. I would also welcome the full protection of the law for officials wherever attacks take place to ensure that community football is safe and enjoyable.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

8. What assessment she has made of the benefits of broadband to the rural economy.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

We published an impact study last year. It showed that, in a decade’s time, the rural gross value added will be £3.3 billion—in 2013 prices—greater than it would otherwise have been. No doubt my hon. Friend welcomes the £10 million we are investing in broadband in Kent to help achieve that.

[Charlie Elphicke]

I welcome the Minister’s answer. Businesses in my constituency of Dover and Deal complain persistently about the appalling service provided by BT on connections, line speeds and fixing things when they go wrong. What more can he do to ensure that BT delivers as promised?

[Mr Vaizey]

My hon. Friend rightly raises that issue regularly. The Government work with Ofcom and BT Openreach to ensure that the highest standards are maintained. There are occasional problems, which we work on, but BT did a good job over Christmas and new year during the floods.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

How can the Minister support my constituents who have contacted me this week, such as those from the village of Messingham, who cannot get the full benefit of broadband because it is not adequate?

[Mr Vaizey]

We are putting £500 million into broadband. As my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State pointed out in her answer to the Opposition spokesman, Labour councillors up and down the country are applauding our fantastic work. I am sure the hon. Gentleman would want to join them in applauding us on how quickly the roll-out programme is going.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

9. Whether she has reviewed the provisions of the National Lottery Act 1993.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

The Government most recently amended the National Lottery Act 1993 in 2010 to restore the lottery shares for arts, sports and heritage good causes to 20%, reversing Labour’s cuts. Together with strong lottery ticket sales, the change has meant that funding for those areas has risen significantly since the beginning of the Parliament.

[Dr Coffey]

I welcome the 2010 changes, but will the Minister also consider the Culture, Media and Sport Committee report from a couple of years ago? The health lottery effectively markets itself as a national lottery, yet it does not give the same proportion of money to good causes or of tax to the Government. Will he look at the situation again? It desperately needs changing for the benefit of all.

[Mr Vaizey]

I hear what my hon. Friend says. Hon. Members agree that society lotteries play an important and successful role in raising money for local charities, whereas the national lottery serves a different purpose. The erosion of the distinction between society lotteries and commercial gambling makes it clear that any consultation on society lotteries would need to be more wide ranging. We have therefore asked the Gambling Commission to advise us on how the national lottery, society lotteries and commercial gambling markets interact. We will assess that advice and, if necessary, frame a consultation document.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

I declare an interest as chair of the John Clare Trust—it is John Clare’s 150th anniversary this year. We have received a lot of money from the Heritage Lottery Fund. I was against the lottery when it came out, and I was wrong.

[Mr Simon Burns (Chelmsford) (Con)]

You usually are! [Laughter.]

[Mr Sheerman]

I shall continue being jolly.

I am a little worried, however. Many MPs find the Big Lottery Fund very good for our regions, but regional offices seem to have closed down. Why is that, and could we ensure that a regional presence returns?

[Mr Vaizey]

As an aside, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns) wins the prize for heckle of the year. I will certainly look into the concerns raised by the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman). It is important that hon. Members have access to lottery distributors to press their cases.

[Mr Speaker]

If I did not know of the link of the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman) with the John Clare Trust, I would have a quite serious problem both with my short-term and long-term memory, as he has mentioned it several hundred times in the deliberations of the House.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

Will the Minister undertake to discuss with the Northern Ireland Executive particular issues relating to the operation of the Big Lottery Fund in Northern Ireland? If he has, will he update the House on the result of those discussions?

[Mr Vaizey]

I will certainly have a meeting with the right hon. Gentleman, if he so desires, and discuss issues relating to the national lottery in Northern Ireland, which is where, in 1994, I bought my first lottery ticket.

[Mr Speaker]

It is always useful to have a bit of information.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

10. What steps the Government are taking to support the arts and culture in the UK.

[The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Maria Miller)]

Over the life of this Parliament, the Government are investing nearly £3 billion of public and lottery funding in the arts in England; £2.3 billion in museums; and more than £2.1 billion in our heritage. We are championing the role that culture plays in the economic, social and cultural life of our country.

[Robert Halfon]

Is my right hon. Friend aware that Harlow is the cultural capital of the east of England? [Interruption.] Oh yes. Not only are we officially a sculpture town where the family of Henry Moore reside, we are the birthplace of fibre-optic communications. Will my right hon. Friend come to Harlow to visit the excellent Gibberd gallery, Gatehouse Arts and Parndon Mill, so she can see for herself the excellence of art in Essex?

[Maria Miller]

My hon. Friend is a doughty champion of his constituency. I will do everything I can to come and support the work he is doing to support culture and the arts in his area. We should recognise that culture, the arts and our heritage play an intrinsically important role in all our constituencies. We all have a duty to support them.

[Ms Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) (Lab)]

May I draw the Secretary of State’s attention to research, published today by the shadow Communities and Local Government Secretary, which shows that the most deprived communities will suffer the biggest cuts to their councils’ spending power? As council funding is even more important for the arts than central Government funding, this will have a massive impact on the arts in those areas, especially as they are the least able to mobilise philanthropy and people have less money in their pockets to spend on participating in the arts. With the lion’s share of Arts Council funding going to London, what will the Secretary of State do to back up councils and support their vital work in trying to ensure that the arts are for all and flourish in deprived, as well as well-off, areas?

[Maria Miller]

The right hon. and learned Lady is absolutely right to say that it is important that every community has the opportunity to appreciate the importance of arts, culture and heritage, and that this is at the heart of the work of the Arts Council. She is right that some, perhaps less enlightened, councils are not investing as they should, and I hope she would join me in encouraging all to recognise the importance of culture and heritage, and support them through these difficult times. I would, however, pick her up on something. We are doing what we can to redress the situation we inherited. Some 70% of the Arts Council’s lottery investment now goes to projects outside London. Sir Peter Bazalgette has made it clear that he will be doing much more on that, but obviously we cannot change overnight the situation we inherited.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

In 2004, English Heritage considered the question of disposal of all 44 bishops’ houses by the Church Commissioners and reported that the eight historically most significant, including the Bishop’s Palace in Wells, should be kept in use. Will the Secretary of State meet me to clarify what advice her Department has received from English Heritage on what is meant by keeping a palace in use, and whether, pursuant to English Heritage’s ongoing conversation with the Church Commissioners, that means being used by our bishops?

[Maria Miller]

My hon. Friend raises an important point. The bishops’ palaces are an important part of our cultural heritage. I was in Wells recently meeting pupils of the Cathedral school benefiting from the music and dance scheme funded by the Department for Education. Wells has a proud tradition, and on this matter I will try to support her.

[Karl Turner (Kingston upon Hull East) (Lab)]

11. What steps she is taking in response to requests from local government for powers to prevent the clustering of betting shops and fixed odds betting terminals.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mrs Helen Grant)]

The Government are working with local authorities on how to make best use of existing planning and licensing powers in regard to betting shops.

[Karl Turner]

Does the Minister agree that the clustering of betting shops and FOBTs in high streets in cities such as Hull is having a detrimental effect, and will she now support the Opposition’s call to give local authorities more power to control the number opening?

[Mrs Grant]

Local authorities already have powers, such as article 4 directions and licensing conditions. The hon. Gentleman is complaining about the number of betting shops and FOBTs on high streets, but it was his party’s Gambling Act 2005 and his party’s liberalisation and relaxing of the rules that got us into this position in the first place.

[Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is only demand from customers that determines the number of betting shops in an area?

[Mrs Grant]

My hon. Friend makes a fair point. Gambling is still a legal activity enjoyed very safely by many around the country.

[Mr Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con)]

T1. If she will make a statement on her departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Maria Miller)]

There is clear evidence of the huge value of the UK’s creative industries in the updated figures we released earlier this month, which revealed that they are now worth more than £70 billion each year to our economy. British creativity can be seen all around the world; so, too, can British sporting success, and next week I will be travelling to Sochi to support Team GB. I am sure the whole House will want to join me in wishing them good luck.

[Mr Bellingham]

Given that tourism is vital to north Norfolk coastal communities and given that recent tidal surges have done substantial damage, will my right hon. Friend ensure that her Department liaises and works with the relevant local authorities?

[Maria Miller]

My hon. Friend raises an important point. Tourism is a vital part of our economy. We have invested £137 million in our international GREAT campaign, but we also need to ensure that constituencies such as his, which have been hit by the recent problematic weather, receive support so that they can continue to be attractive tourist destinations.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

T2. Will the Minister join me in congratulating Manchester on attracting a world-class game developer to the UK? PlaygroundSquad will train 60 young people a year—some of them from Oldham, I hope—to work in the creative gaming industry. Does he agree that Manchester’s vision to be a digital production hub is helping to establish UK plc as the creative capital of Europe, and that these developments and industries will sustain our economic recovery, not a return to growth based on consumer debt?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

The Government are extremely grateful for the hon. Lady’s support for our policies. We are looking forward to an announcement shortly on the video games tax credits to go alongside the television, animation and film tax credits, which have done so much to support our creative industries, with the support of Manchester city council, which plays a key role in helping to support creative industries in that part of the world.

[Mr Simon Burns (Chelmsford) (Con)]

T3. Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the creative industries are now worth more than £70 billion to the UK economy, and would she care to comment on the success of the creative industries and what support the Government can provide so that they can continue that success?

[Maria Miller]

I am delighted to say that, as we have already announced, the creative industries are now worth £70 billion to this country. It is one of the fastest-growing sectors. It is a little surprising that the Opposition are launching their second review into the creative industries—industries they said were at risk from global pressures—but I am delighted that the right hon. and learned Member for Camberwell and Peckham (Ms Harman) only last week endorsed our policies when she said that our creative industries were a huge success story. Perhaps that is the result of four years of a Conservative-led Government. We should not return to the idea of—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I call Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck.

[Mrs Emma Lewell-Buck (South Shields) (Lab)]

T6. Violent attacks on betting shop workers are on the rise and single-staffing policies mean that many have minimal protection from harm. Yet in many shops operators have not installed protective screens for their staff until after an incident has occurred. Will the Minister look at requiring all betting shops to install screens for the safety and benefit of the staff?

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mrs Helen Grant)]

Local authorities that are concerned about any betting shop can use their licensing conditions, which were used very successfully by Newham when it had concerns about crime, antisocial behaviour and under-age gambling. With regard to the number of staff in shops, licensing conditions can again be used.

[Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con)]

T4. In the last four years, over 600 businesses have advertised on Brighton’s excellent Juice FM. Will the Minister join me and the Advertising Association in encouraging small and medium-sized enterprises to use our diverse local media to publicise their businesses?

[Mr Vaizey]

The Advertising Association has today issued a report showing how important advertising is for small and medium-sized businesses. My hon. Friend graphically illustrates that with the example from his constituency, particularly using the excellent local radio station Juice FM.

[Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)]

T7. Arts funding in London is £70 per head. In the rest of the country, it is £4.60 a head. In the north-west, that has led to reductions in funding for organisations as diverse as North West Playwrights, the Manchester Camerata and even the Wordsworth Trust. What is the Secretary of State going to do to address these anomalies and to make it clear to the arts funding organisations that culture does not stop at the M25?

[Mr Vaizey]

Statistics can be used in many ways. If one looks at the funding per visitor to visitor attractions, one sees that the funding for London is very low. Manchester and the north-west have many thriving cultural institutions including the Manchester Camerata, which is ably led by its chairman Bob Riley. He is doing so much to promote philanthropy and is getting the Manchester Camerata to work with schools and health services, which I am sure the hon. Lady knows about.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

T5. One of my favourite bands is Muse. When I recently Googled “Muse MP3 download”, nine of the 10 sites listed were illegal. Is there something more that my right hon. Friend can do to encourage companies such as Google and Yahoo to remove those illegal sites from their listings?

[Maria Miller]

I share my hon. Friend’s concern about sites that contain illegal material, and I raised that directly with Google when I visited it last year. The Government are acting decisively, particularly with the police IP crime unit, to remove payment facilities from illegal sites and to prevent advertising from appearing. We think more can be done and we will continue to press Google to play a full role.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

T8. Will the Secretary of State confirm that one third of the superfast broadband is now happening in Wales not, contrary to his assertions, due to the Secretary of State for Wales, but due to Ken Skates the Labour Minister there?

[Maria Miller]

I would gently remind the right hon. Gentleman that funding for these projects is distributed using the Barnett formula to make sure that Wales gets the share that it really needs. Of course we continue to work with the Welsh Government to make sure that that is done correctly.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

T9. Does my hon. Friend agree that London is the premier tourist attraction for the whole world and, with a massive 63% of visitors to the UK coming to London, that that contributes directly to the UK economy? What more can she do to ensure that that is protected and enhanced for the good of the economy overall?

[Mrs Grant]

I welcome London’s incredible success in attracting so many visitors. It is important for that success to continue. The Government promote the UK, including London, through the GREAT campaign, which has just received a 49% increase in funding from the Chancellor.

[Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)]

A family contacted me recently about their mother who had become addicted to online bingo and had gambled away tens of thousands of pounds. They asked me to highlight to Ministers not only the issue of daily limits, but just how hard it was, with the mother’s permission, to close these accounts, with bingo operators repeatedly trying to hook her back in with offers and emails. Will the Minister look at the issue?

[Mrs Grant]

I am happy to look at all issues of this nature but I remind the hon. Lady that the remote gambling Bill will require all operators selling online gambling to British consumers to hold a Gambling Commission licence and to comply with conditions that include having policies, procedures and practices to promote socially responsible gambling.

[Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con)]

T10. The Secretary of State will be aware that the England cricket team ran into a spot of bother in Australia, and did not manage to retain the Ashes. Will she join me in congratulating the England women’s team, who did retain the Ashes in Australia this week, and who have given all English cricket fans a team to be proud of?

[Maria Miller]

I welcome my hon. Friend’s question, and join him in congratulating Charlotte Edwards and her team on doing what the men could not do.

[John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)]

Further to Question 11, would it not be sensible to give councils the power to say that there must be no more gambling shops in their areas because saturation point has been reached? That would not mean stopping gambling shops per se; it would merely impose a limit which does not exist in planning legislation at present, whatever the Minister may think.

[Mrs Grant]

I am afraid that I fundamentally disagree with the hon. Gentleman. There are powers in the form of article 4 directions, which can be and have been used successfully.

[John Cryer]

They do not work.

[Mrs Grant]

They do work, and they have been used very successfully in relation to both Southwark and Barking and Dagenham. I remind the hon. Gentleman that Newham council also used licensing conditions to control unacceptable activities in betting shops.

[Mr David Heath (Somerton and Frome) (LD)]

In Somerset, we now know which areas will not benefit from the roll-out of high-speed broadband. Some of them have been in the news over the past couple of days. When the Secretary of State distributes the funds that she has available for the last 10% of the population in rural areas, will she please not do so on the basis of an elaborate bidding system, and will she please not ask for match funding from rural areas, where it will simply never happen?

[Maria Miller]

My hon. Friend, who speaks with passion about this subject, will know that we have already committed ourselves to spending an additional £250 million on starting to address that last 10%, and to an additional £10 million budget for the hardest-to-reach areas. We must of course ensure that the money is used wisely, but I agree with the hon. Gentleman that we need to use it to fill the gaps that the commercial providers simply cannot reach.

[Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)]

The outstanding Nottingham Playhouse faces threats, if not to its whole future, to its ability to commission and stage new work as a result of the Government’s local authority cuts. What is the Secretary of State doing to support councils such as mine which want to promote new work and new talent in our region?

[Mr Vaizey]

I know that the hon. Lady will welcome the Chancellor’s announcement of a theatre tax credit for new work, which is aimed at precisely such organisations as the Nottingham Playhouse.

The Minister for Women and Equalities was asked—

[Mr Simon Burns (Chelmsford) (Con)]

1. Whether she plans to attend the Sochi 2014 winter Olympic games.

[The Minister for Women and Equalities (Maria Miller)]

Along with the Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport—my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant), who is sports Minister—I shall be attending the winter Olympics in Sochi to support our Team GB athletes. The sports Minister and the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Hemel Hempstead (Mike Penning), who is Minister for disabled people, will also attend the Paralympics to support our Paralympic GB athletes.

[Mr Burns]

Given the attitude of the Russian Government, what have our Government been doing ahead of the winter Olympics to support the LGBT community, many of whom remain deeply worried about their status in Russia?

[Maria Miller]

I share my right hon. Friend’s concern about the protection of human rights for LGBT people in Russia. I have raised the issue personally both with Ministers and with non-governmental organisations, as have my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary. Over the coming months, Stonewall will be developing a programme of activities which it will seek to deliver to human rights defenders in Russia, to help them to support LGBT people in the country. Stonewall’s work is being made possible by support from our coalition Government.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

Charming as the Secretary of State and the sports Minister are—[Interruption.] I did not mean to be patronising; I meant to be rude, actually. Charming as they are, would it not make far more sense to take a leaf out of President Obama’s book, and to include John Amaechi, Nicola Adams, Tom Daley, Gareth Thomas and Clare Balding in the delegation, in order to make the point that those who know what it is to enjoy the freedom to live your life as you want in this country have something to offer the rest of the world in Russia?

[Maria Miller]

The hon. Gentleman will know that it is very important that Team GB see that the British Government are behind them every step of the way. I make no apology for the fact that the Minister for sport and I are going to the winter Olympics. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will join me in saying that the team have our very best wishes.

[Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)]

2. What assessment she has made of the feasibility of issuing non-gender-specific official documents to people who do not identify as a particular gender.

[The Minister for Women and Equalities (Maria Miller)]

Non-gender is not recognised in UK law. The Equality Act 2010 protects people from discrimination if it arises from their being perceived as either male or female. We recognise that a very small number of people consider themselves to be of neither gender. We are not aware that that results in any specific detriment, and it is not Government policy to identify such people for the purpose of issuing non-gender-specific official documents.

[Hugh Bayley]

There is a wider point to make. This week, when Hayley Cropper’s funeral takes place on “Coronation Street”, would it not be a good time for the Government to announce that they are taking further steps to reinforce and implement their transgender plan of action, and perhaps to consult on the format of official documents? When can we expect further thought on this matter and a statement?

[Maria Miller]

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman knows that the Under-Secretary of State for Women and Equalities, my hon. Friend the Member for Maidstone and The Weald (Mrs Grant), and I regularly meet many different groups, including those that represent people of transgender. I gently say to him that, in some circumstances, the Government need to collect gender information to ensure that they target resources correctly and fund public services accurately, for example when estimating pensions. Gender information can also help with identification. That is why we continue to believe that it is necessary to collect that information.

[Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)]

Why will the Minister not follow the lead of Germany and Australia and enable parents to register their child as “x” when they are neither obviously male or female? That would remove the pressure to make a hasty decision on gender immediately after birth.

[Maria Miller]

The hon. Lady will know that there are provisions for parents who face such challenges. Her Majesty’s Passport Office carried out an internal review of gender markings for passports. A copy of the review has been laid in the House so that Members may refer to it. It concluded that there would be no significant advantages to including a non-gender specification. Of course, we will continue to look at the matter. I am sure that my colleagues in the Home Office and other Departments that issue such documentation will have listened carefully to the comments that have been made today.

[Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)]

3. What recent discussions she has had on the position of black, Asian and minority ethnic groups in the labour market.

[The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Mike Penning)]

The ethnic minority employment stakeholder group supports the Government’s ethnic minority employment strategy. The group meets regularly and reports progress to the Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions, my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey), who has responsibility for employment.

[Nia Griffith]

Back in November, an inquiry report published by the all-party parliamentary group on race and community and the Runnymede Trust found that discrimination was present at every stage of the recruitment process. What plans does the Minister have to tackle illegal discrimination, and what new approaches is he developing to tackle BAME unemployment through the Work programme?

[Mike Penning]

To answer the second part of the question first, we look at each individual case. Evidence has shown that that approach has been much more successful in getting people, particularly those from the black community, into work. If there is discrimination, there is legislation on the statute book to deal with it. It should be reported to us and we will take action.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

Half of all young black men between the ages of 16 and 24 are unemployed. What specific schemes will the Government introduce to deal with that serious problem?

[Mike Penning]

I have great respect for the right hon. Gentleman, but his figure is not quite correct, because 80% of that 51% of young black men are in full-time education. That is what is actually going on. We need to work hard on individuals and ensure that the discrimination that the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) referred to does not take place. We must work together to do that and that is what we intend to do.

[Gloria De Piero (Ashfield) (Lab)]

The latest annual figures show that the rate of non-white unemployment has risen by 9.2%. Why is that happening?

[Mike Penning]

In some areas of the country, we have work to do in respect of unemployment. We are working very hard on that. We need to work together. One area that is of particular concern to me is the high unemployment rate in the Bangladeshi and Pakistani communities, particularly among women. One reason for that, although not the only reason, is that there are language issues. We need to work on that closely in our constituencies, which I am doing in my constituency, because English is not usually spoken fully by ladies in those two communities.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

4. What steps her Department is taking to ensure that internet service providers and social media companies tackle and confront the online abuse of women.

[Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)]

6. What steps her Department is taking to ensure that internet service providers and social media companies tackle and confront the online abuse of women.

[Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)]

7. What steps her Department is taking to ensure that internet service providers and social media companies tackle and confront the online abuse of women.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport (Mr Edward Vaizey)]

We have made it clear that we expect social media companies to respond quickly and robustly to incidents of abusive behaviour on their networks. We will be inviting a number of social media companies to discuss what more can be done to protect all users, including young people and women, online.

[Bob Blackman]

Clearly, we must do everything we can to stop women being abused in public life. Does my hon. Friend agree that it is deeply regrettable that several political parties have failed to stamp down on sexual abuse in their own parties?

[Mr Vaizey]

It is important for any organisation, whether a political party or a company, to stamp down on sexual abuse wherever it emerges.

[Lorely Burt]

Oh behalf of my own party, may I echo the comments of my hon. Friend the Minister? Liberal Democrats do not, and will never, tolerate the abuse of women in the workplace. Does my hon. Friend agree that the abuse of women and others online should be treated in the same way as offline abuse, and will he tell us what he can do about it?

[Mr Vaizey]

Yes, I do agree with the hon. Lady, which is why I welcome the recent convictions of John Nimmo and Isabella Sorley, which clearly demonstrate that threatening or harassing behaviour is illegal, whether online or offline. Last year, the Crown Prosecution Service made 2,000 prosecutions under section 127 of the Communications Act 2003.

[Stuart Andrew]

My hon. Friend will be aware of the recent excellent debate in the Chamber on cyber-bullying, during which we heard some harrowing examples of victimisation. Will he now meet representatives of the social media companies, as he did with the internet service providers last year, to see what more can be done to tackle this issue?

[Mr Vaizey]

Yes, we certainly intend to have that meeting with the social media companies and, particularly, to put in place procedures giving people a clear ability to report abuse and procedures to ensure that they are responded to in good time. It is important to emphasise that the Government take cyber-bullying extremely seriously. That is why we introduced new powers for teachers in the Education Act 2011.

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his last answer, which deals with some of the problems I have seen involving young people being targeted by Twitter trolls—for want of a better term—and teachers not being entirely clear about how to report this and support the young people in question. Will the Minister confirm that, as part of his discussions, he will continue to have meetings with colleagues in the Department for Education to ensure that teachers right across the piece, down to primary school level, know how to deal with this issue?

[Mr Vaizey]

Yes, we have regular meetings with colleagues in the Department for Education, who work tirelessly on the issues of cyber-bullying and bullying in general. It is important to stress that Ofsted now holds schools to account for how well they behave in relation to bullying. It is also important to note, in the spirit of the hon. Lady’s question, that we help teachers to help their pupils, particularly when they are subject to abuse online.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

I hope that the Minister will be aware of the report from End Violence Against Women, “New Technology: Same Old Problems”. One issue that the report highlighted was the sharing of intimate pictures online, suggesting that even if the person in the photograph had originally consented to it being taken, they ought to have the right to object to it being posted online, and that the internet service provider or the website should co-operate with them in getting it removed.

[Mr Vaizey]

I am aware of that report, and that is another important issue that is worth raising with social media companies. There is a debate in Europe at the moment on the future of data protection regulations, and it is important to put on the table the issue of people being able to retrieve their data from websites to which they have freely given them.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

Following on from the very good debate that we had in the House on cyber-bullying and from the question that the hon. Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) has just asked about plans for a meeting, is it not the case that the Minister and all of us need to do more to educate and help not only teachers but parents about these dangers? Should we not also be helping parents to understand their responsibilities and advising them on what more they can do to protect their children?

[Mr Vaizey]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a good point. The work we have done with ISPs has been to give parents the tools on how to block sites. I am particularly pleased that the main ISPs have come together and put £25 million on the table to begin a campaign—I think it starts this spring—to educate parents who, for many reasons, are not as familiar with the technology as are their own children.

[Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)]

5. What steps she is taking to increase child care provision to help women in their careers.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Women and Equalities (Jenny Willott)]

The Government want parents to be able to access affordable child care so that they can afford to work while knowing their child is in a safe and stimulating environment. The Department for Culture Media and Sport provides grants to those wishing to set up a new child care business and the Department for Education is increasing child care provision by: simplifying the rules so nurseries can expand more easily; enabling good and outstanding childminders to access Government funding for early years places to make care cheaper for parents; and legislating to create childminder agencies to give parents and childminders more choice.

[Alex Cunningham]

With local authorities reporting that the number of breakfast and after-school clubs is deteriorating fast, will the Minister back Labour’s proposals to guarantee them specific funding in the future?

[Jenny Willott]

As I understand it, there are 500 more after-school clubs than there were at the time of the last election, which is a 5% increase over the past couple of years. The Department for Education is working extremely closely with schools to encourage the increase of breakfast clubs, wraparound care and after-school clubs as they make it far easier for a large number of parents to work while their children are in a safe and protected environment.

[Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

As a working mother under the previous Government, I was painfully aware of how child care costs became the most expensive in Europe. Does the Minister agree that the Government’s introduction of tax-free child care really helps working parents get the affordable quality child care they need?

[Jenny Willott]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is not the only thing the Government have done to ensure that child care is affordable. By increasing the number of hours of free Government-funded child care to which three and four-year olds are entitled, parents are saving nearly £400 a year more. Furthermore, by introducing extra free child care for disadvantaged two-year-olds, parents save £2,400 a year, which makes a significant difference to the families of some of the most deprived young children.

[Mr Speaker]

Order.

[Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab)]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

I beg your pardon. I did not give the hon. Lady her opportunity to speak. She would have been deprived.

[Mrs Hodgson]

I am very grateful to you, Mr Speaker. Since the last election, the cost of nursery places has risen five times faster than pay, and there are 35,000 fewer child care places. Given that so many women are forced out of work because of unaffordable child care, will the Minister back our plans to provide 25 hours of child care for all three and four-year-olds of working parents?

[Jenny Willott]

I do not recognise the figures highlighted by the hon. Lady. The latest figures from the Department for Education show that there are 100,000 more child care places. According to the latest figures, there were 2 million child care places in 2011, which was a 5% increase on 2009, so the number of child care places has increased. As the mother of two young children, I totally appreciate that the cost of child care can be an excessive burden on families. However, the Government have done a lot to offer support and are doing more with the offer of tax-free child care from next year, which will make a significant difference to the amount that parents have to pay for their child care.

Royal Assent

[Mr Speaker]

I have to notify the House, in accordance with the Royal Assent Act 1967, that the Queen has signified her Royal Assent to the following Acts:

Mesothelioma Act 2014

Local Audit and Accountability Act 2014

European Union (Approvals) Act 2014

Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Act 2014

Hertfordshire County Council (Filming on Highways) Act 2014.

Business of the House

Thursday 30th January 2014 Commons Chamber

10:34

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House give us the business for next week?

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew Lansley)]

The business for next week is as follows:

Monday 3 February—Second Reading of the Deregulation Bill.

Tuesday 4 February—Consideration of Lords amendments to the Anti-Social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Bill, followed by a debate on a motion relating to energy company charges for payment other than by direct debit. The subject for this debate was determined by the Backbench Business Committee.

Wednesday 5 February—Opposition day (unallotted day). There will be a debate on the NHS, followed by a debate entitled “Job insecurity and the cost of living”. Both debates will arise on an official Opposition motion.

Thursday 6 February—General debate on Scotland’s place in the UK, followed by a general debate on international wildlife crime. The subjects for both debates have been determined by the Backbench Business Committee.

Friday 7 February—The House will not be sitting.

The provisional business for the following week will include:

Monday 10 February—Consideration of Lords amendments.

Tuesday 11 February—Opposition day (unallotted day). There will be a debate on an Opposition motion. Subject to be announced.

Wednesday 12 February—Motions relating to the police grant and local government finance reports.

Thursday 13 February—Business to be nominated by the Backbench Business Committee.

Friday 14 February—The House will not be sitting.

[Ms Eagle]

I thank the Leader of the House for announcing what little Government business there is for next week. An analysis by the House of Commons Library has revealed that this Government spend a third less time debating Government legislation than the previous Government. Is that because they have run out of ideas or because they are too busy arguing among themselves to produce any positive proposals?

The Immigration Bill was once considered the centrepiece of Lynton Crosby’s legislative agenda, but eight months on from the Queen’s Speech the Bill is in disarray. Having been in suspended animation for two months, it returns today with more than 50 amendments tabled at the last minute by a Government running scared of their own mutinous Back Benchers. Almost uniquely, it comes back to the Floor of the House without a second programme motion that would have guaranteed debate on all parts of the Bill. That means that we will not have time to consider crucial issues such as the wrong-headed abolition of first-tier tribunal appeals in immigration cases.

Will the Leader of the House now admit what I and many of his Back Benchers already know: that less than five hours is simply not enough time to debate the amendments to the Bill? Perhaps he could tell us why he has not scheduled more time when there is plenty of spare time next week to ensure that all amendments tabled get a proper hearing in this Chamber? Will he now schedule extra time? Surely he cannot be afraid of his own Back Benchers.

The winter Olympics in Sochi get under way next week and I am looking forward to cheering on our Olympic and Paralympic athletes, but we cannot ignore the homophobic laws that the Russian Government have recently passed and the resulting vicious crackdown. In an attempt to downplay that law, President Putin has assured us that some of his best friends are gay while praising Elton John as an “extraordinary person”. The mayor of Sochi has claimed that there are no gay people in his town at all. Surely when lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people are oppressed, assaulted and killed in Russia, it is our duty to stand up for them. Will the Leader of the House outline what the Government will be doing to make our views on the unacceptability of that repression crystal clear to President Putin?

Nearly four years ago, the Chancellor predicted that by now the economy would have grown by 8.4%. This week, we learned that he has achieved 3.3%. Four years ago, the Chancellor promised he would eliminate the deficit by the end of the Parliament. He is now telling us that it will take nearly twice as long. Yesterday, the Governor of the Bank of England pointed out that the “consumer spending boom” that the Chancellor has unleashed is unsustainable and on Monday the Business Secretary broke ranks and warned that with no rebalancing in sight the Government are presiding over the wrong sort of recovery.

Instead of fixating on statistics in a doomed attempt to tell people that they are really better off, should not the Government be promising that there will be no further tax cuts for millionaires? Or will they just admit that under a Tory government all we will get is tax cuts for the few and falling living standards for the many? Will the Leader of the House arrange a debate in Government time on what on earth the Chancellor could mean by the phrase, “We’re all in this together”?

Recent floods have caused anguish for people up and down the country and the weather forecast means that things looks likely to get worse over the next few days. Last night it emerged that the Somerset Levels, which have been flooded for almost a month, will now get assistance from the military. It comes to something when it takes a PR disaster by the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs to get the Government finally to do the right thing for the people of Somerset.

The Environment Secretary claims that he has been spending more than ever on flood defences, but total spending on flood protection has fallen by as much as £100 million. The Government have almost halved spending on river maintenance, and it has emerged that a year ago they ignored a report that specifically mentioned the need for dredging in Somerset. He may have been outwitted by badgers moving the goalposts, but even so, may we have a statement from the Environment Secretary about what he plans to do to get a grip on his brief?

Mr Speaker, may I take this opportunity to congratulate the England women’s cricket team on their outstanding performance in retaining the Ashes? What does that say about never leaving men to do a woman’s job? I am sure that the Leader of the House will tell us how the Government plan to honour their success.

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to the shadow Leader for her response to the business statement, in particular for giving us notification of the debates next Wednesday so that the House knows them well in advance. I welcome the debate on job insecurity, which no doubt for the Opposition will be led by the shadow Chancellor.

The hon. Lady asked about time spent on legislation. As far as I can see, the amount of time spent debating legislation in this Parliament looks set to be almost the same overall as in the last Parliament—about 3,200 hours, although it is not terribly sensible to measure the quality of legislation by the amount of time spent debating it, not least as many Public Bill Committees have finished early, and we have devoted more time to debate on Bills on the Floor of the House, as distinct from in Committee.

The shadow Leader asked about the Immigration Bill, which we brought back, as we anticipated we would in the programme motion—she said that there was not a programme motion—passed by the House on 22 October. Often, when we table additional programme motions that have the effect of inserting knives into the programme, we are criticised; when I do not bring a programme motion to the House and do not insert knives, the shadow Leader complains. It is perfectly normal to proceed on the basis of the programme motion set at the commencement of debate on a Bill.

The hon. Lady also asked about the winter Olympics. I was not in the House at that moment, but I understand that my right hon. Friend the Member for Chelmsford (Mr Burns) asked my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport about the matter, as indeed did the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant). My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will have made clear to the House the support that we are giving to gay groups and organisations in Russia. I hope that our support for them and for human rights generally is transparent, including arguing for the defence of human rights in Russia.

The shadow Leader of the House asked about the floods, which we have discussed in previous business questions in response to questions from my hon. Friends. She and the House will have heard in Prime Minister’s questions yesterday what the Prime Minister said we would be doing about that. I can reiterate that we are spending £2.4 billion in this four-year spending period, which is more than the £2.2 billion spent by the previous Government in the previous four-year period. The partnership funding approach has brought in a further £180 million of external money. That means that more is being spent on flood risk management than ever before.

The hon. Lady also asked about reducing the deficit. I thought that was probably a bit of an own goal on the part of the shadow Leader of the House, when it has become obvious that the Institute of Fiscal Studies has not only demolished Labour’s 50p tax rate policy but has found out the shadow Chancellor for the way he constructed his plan for reducing the deficit. It does not involve reducing the deficit at all—by no more than about a third of what is required—because it leaves out entirely borrowing for investment, which is absurd. The amount of borrowing is the amount of borrowing. We have to reduce the deficit. The Labour Government left us with the largest deficit in the OECD, and they continue not to understand the nature of the economic problems that they created in the past and would create again in the future. More borrowing leads to more taxes, which leads to cutting this country’s economic security, but we need to give people a greater sense of security.

We are only a month into 2014, and I wish that next week’s Opposition day did not reflect the Labour party’s desire to shift the debate away from the economy, which grew by 1.9% in 2013. There are 1.6 million more people employed in the private sector and, according to a Lloyds TSB survey, business confidence is at its strongest since 1994. Inflation has hit its 2% target and the International Monetary Fund has confirmed that Britain is the fastest-growing major European economy. We are pursuing a long-term economic plan that will reduce the deficit, cut taxes, create more jobs, make welfare work, and deliver better schools and skills, but all we have from the Labour party is more taxes, more borrowing and, I am afraid, more debt.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. As right hon. and hon. Members will know, my normal practice is to call everyone in this session to put a question. However, today we have important matters appertaining to the Immigration Bill to consider and a pretty constrained timetable in which to do so. I cannot do anything about that, but it would help if we had brevity from Back and Front Benchers alike. I warn colleagues in advance that it might not be possible to accommodate everyone at business questions on this occasion because I have to take account of the next business.

[Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)]

Will the Leader of the House, on behalf of the Government, take the opportunity to make a statement in defence and support of the Queen and the royal family, and the amazingly good value that they provide to the United Kingdom, and the territories and realms? Will he set out that any underfunding is due to a failure of Governments properly to fund the royal family, and dissociate himself from the disrespectful and unwarranted report published by the Public Accounts Committee?

[Mr Lansley]

The Government applaud the way in which the royal household has been managing its affairs more cost-effectively in recent years and securing greater value for money while living, in what are inevitably tough times, in a way that reflects the pressures that exist throughout the public sector and in many organisations. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was absolutely right to establish a new arrangement—my hon. Friend will recall it—that gives more certainty and security for future funding in relation to revenues from the Crown Estate.

[Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab)]

Four weeks ago, I asked for a statement on the publication of a report on food banks, and last week I asked the same question. Will the Leader of the House get in touch with the Department for Work and Pensions to get it to publish that report? May I suggest that he sends some dogs in, because the Department has had the report for so long that it must be out of date by now?

[Mr Lansley]

I will try, as I always endeavour to do on behalf of Members, to secure a response to the hon. Gentleman as soon as I can.

[Caroline Dinenage (Gosport) (Con)]

Commuters on the south coast have been struggling with inadequate transport infrastructure for decades. Gosport is the largest town in the UK without a railway, it takes longer to travel on the fast train from Portsmouth to London than it does to go from London to Doncaster, and the A32 and M27 are virtually at gridlock. Will the Leader of the House arrange a debate on the transport infrastructure in the Solent region?

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend might like to pursue the broader question of transport links in her area through an Adjournment debate, if she is able to secure one, but I shall of course get a reply from a Transport Minister, which will reflect the fact that we are making the largest investment in this country’s railways since the Victorian era.

[Siobhain McDonagh (Mitcham and Morden) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House consider holding a debate on the introduction of the bobby tax, which has gone unnoticed by many Members, but will require young people to pay £1,000 to apply to join the police, which will be an insurmountable hurdle for many disadvantaged groups?

[Mr Lansley]

I recall this question being raised previously with the Prime Minister. If I may, I will endeavour to establish what reply the Prime Minister subsequently gave, and ensure that it also reaches the hon. Lady.

[Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)]

Reputable temporary employment agencies are being undercut by disreputable ones which incorporate travel and subsistence in basic remuneration. The Government are taking action to tackle these agencies, but further, faster action needs to be taken before more reputable agencies go out of business. May we please have a debate on what can be done in this unfortunate circumstance?

[Mr Lansley]

I will see what our hon. Friends at the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills are able to advise in relation to that. My recollection is that the rules on what is counted in the minimum wage are very clear about these matters, but I will take further advice.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

Naloxone reverses the effects of opiate overdose but it currently needs to be prescribed. The Advisory Council on the Misuse of Drugs has recommended that it be made more widely available to trained people such as hostel staff so that they can more effectively intervene in an overdose case. May we therefore have a debate, please, on the limitations created by the Medicines Act, which contains rules that are preventing this ground-breaking work from going further and more lives from being saved?

[Mr Lansley]

As the hon. Lady asks about the Medicines Act, I will ask my hon. Friends at the Department of Health about how that is applied in the circumstances she describes and whether anything can be done to help in the way she seeks.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Of the 144 hours that Parliament has sat this year, 33 hours have been spent on Government Bills. We have an Immigration Bill before the House today and there are nearly 50 pages of amendments on very, very important issues. I urge the Leader of the House to think again and to bring in at this late stage an extra day to debate exceptionally important issues.

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend will know that so far in this Session the House has spent just over 500 hours debating Government legislation. I entirely understand the point he makes about Bills having two days on Report, and we have programmed that seven times in instances where that was programmed at the outset. I cannot give another day. We have to make progress with this business. My hon. Friend understands perfectly well, I know, that in order to be confident that the Bill will secure passage—and we must ensure that it does—we wanted to make sure that it was completed now.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

May we have a debate in Government time on aviation and regional airports in the United Kingdom? With the ongoing work of the Davies commission, the impact that this has on the regions is extremely important. For Northern Ireland the link into long-haul flights and to London is particularly important.

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friends from the Department for Transport will be at the Dispatch Box next Thursday, if the right hon. Gentleman has an opportunity to ask them questions relating to that. I know that he and other Members will recall that the potential of regional airports was stressed very much when the interim report of the Airports Commission was published, and we continue to take that very seriously.

[Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)]

May I request an early and urgent debate on the role of dredging and regular maintenance of watercourses, both major and minor, in the prevention of flooding? In addition, may we discuss the further delay to the adoption of the sustainable drainage systems regulations? Sustainable drainage has a huge impact on the potential reduction of flooding and the regulations are long overdue.

[Mr Lansley]

I cannot promise an immediate debate, although I suspect the House will have opportunities relatively quickly now to debate and discuss the implications of the widespread flooding and, in particular, to receive an update in relation to the very difficult circumstances experienced in Somerset. I entirely take my hon. Friend’s point. I know from my own area the importance of internal drainage boards and the work they do in maintaining drainage. I do not wish to embarrass my hon. Friend, but may I say that her question is a further reflection of the very important work she does here on behalf of her constituents and others? She is a fine Chair of the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Committee and we much appreciate the work she does in this House.

[Hon. Members]

Hear, hear.

[Mr Speaker]

I hope that the cheers for that proposition will be noted in the north of England.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

May we have a debate on the Deputy Prime Minister’s national pledge for free hot school meals for infants from September 2014, which of course was pioneered in Hull in 2004 by Labour but axed by the Liberal Democrats? Or is it likely to go the way of all pledges that the Deputy Prime Minister makes?

[Mr Lansley]

I am sure that the House will have an opportunity to discuss that when we consider Lords amendments to the Children and Families Bill.

[Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)]

My constituents Mr and Mrs D’Costa-Manuel have been trying to get disability living allowance for their autistic son. Despite the fact that they have lived in this country for over three decades and their son was born here, they have been unsuccessful in the application, because of a short period of time spent in Australia. Will the Leader of the House ask our right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to look into the case and make a statement?

[Mr Lansley]

I appreciate my hon. Friend’s concern for his constituents, but one of the conditions for entitlement to disability living allowance, as he will know, is that a claimant must have been present in the country for two of the past three years. He will understand that all decisions on benefit claims must be made in accordance with the relevant legislation, but if he provides further details I will ask the Department for Work and Pensions to look into the matter.

[Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)]

The Prime Minister has curiously contested the fact that child poverty had risen, saying he was not happy

“with the measure. I think we need a better measure.”—[Official Report, 29 January 2014; Vol. 574, c. 859.]

Will the Leader of the House allow a debate in Government time to discuss what the Government propose to do about the escalating problem of child poverty, other than fiddling the figures?

[Mr Lansley]

The House will recall that the Prime Minister said that the data the previous Government used to measure child poverty related to relative poverty and that, on that measure, it has come down. The figures for 2011-12, the latest period for which data are available, show the number of children in relative poverty to be 2.3 million, a fall of 300,000 from 2009-10, when the figure was 2.6 million. The latest data from this Parliament show that the number of children in relative poverty has fallen by 300,000.

[Sir Greg Knight (East Yorkshire) (Con)]

May we have a debate on transport? Is the Leader of the House aware that the Government, at a time when they are seeking to spend billions of pounds to enable a few trains to run faster, have bizarrely announced that they want to lower the speed limit on certain sections of the M1 motorway, and for reasons other than road safety, which is without precedent? We already have the lowest road speed limits in Europe, and only 8% of travellers choose to travel by rail, so will the Government announce a new initiative—HSM1?

[Mr Lansley]

I remind my right hon. Friend that the Government’s investment in rail is intended principally to increase capacity, as demand on the railways has doubled since privatisation. We need more capacity. With regard to speed limits on the M1, I understand that the reduction is to be a temporary measure related to air quality, but I will of course ask the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Scarborough and Whitby (Mr Goodwill)—my right hon. Friend’s parliamentary neighbour—to respond to him on that point.

[Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)]

The Leader of the House recently arranged for a reply from the Department for Work and Pensions on a matter I raised about delays in personal independence payments, for which I am grateful, but yet again I have had a constituent raise the matter with me. May I again request a debate in Government time so that we can discuss and examine in detail the delays, which are affecting my constituents and many across the country?

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. We did indeed correspond following his previous question, and that confirmed that the Department does not have a target for completion of personal independence payment claims. It is a new benefit, and we are looking closely at how long the journey to completion of claims takes, against the original estimates. Where there are further opportunities to streamline those processes, we will certainly introduce them.

[Guy Opperman (Hexham) (Con)]

May we have a Treasury debate on regional cuts to air passenger duty for entrants to the long-haul market, which would stimulate growth, reduce the burden on the south- east and kick-start the regional economy? I echo what was said by the right hon. Member for Belfast North (Mr Dodds).

[Mr Lansley]

I will not reiterate what I have said, but the point about regional airports is well taken. Taxes and duties are of course matters for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but I will be glad to alert my hon. Friends at the Treasury to the point that my hon. Friend raises.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Will the Leader of the House trouble his Cabinet colleague the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change to come to the House to provide a statement on the latest confusion in energy policy? Just last month, he described Ofgem as fit for purpose, but it is widely reported today that ministerial sources have said Ofgem is in the last chance saloon. Given that part of Labour’s policy is to reset the dysfunctional energy market, may we have a statement to help the Secretary of State to catch up with the reality of the system over which he is presiding?

[Mr Lansley]

If I may, I advise the hon. Gentleman to base questions not simply on press reports, but on facts.

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

On the Immigration Bill, will the Leader of the House clarify exactly what percentage of Conservative MPs will follow the Prime Minister today, or is it Liberty Hall on the Government Benches?

[Mr Lansley]

I am not sure that I quite understand my hon. Friend’s question. During the course of today, the debate will proceed and votes will take place in the usual way.

[Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)]

A couple of weeks ago, my hon. Friend the Member for West Bromwich East (Mr Watson) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Wolverhampton South East (Mr McFadden) raised with the Prime Minister in the Chamber concerns about British involvement in the bloody assault nearly 30 years ago on the Sikh Golden Temple in Amritsar. Will the Leader of the House update us on the progress of the consequent inquiry? Will it report next week, and will he arrange for a statement either by the Prime Minister or the Foreign Secretary?

[Mr Lansley]

I regret that I cannot advise the right hon. Gentleman and the House on the timing of the completion of that inquiry, although it is being proceeded with as a matter of urgency. As I have said, for that reason I cannot advise the House about the character of the statement that will then be made.

[Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)]

Will my right hon. Friend ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to come to the House early next week to make a statement on the latest idiotic comments from the Council of Europe that benefits levels in this country are too low and should be almost doubled? For how much longer will this Government allow the Council of Europe and unelected pseudo-judges in the European Court of Human Rights to decide things in this country that should be decided by this Parliament?

[Mr Lansley]

I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions would welcome the opportunity to come to the Dispatch Box on that subject. He might well say, as I do, that it is lunacy for the Council of Europe to suggest that welfare payments need to increase when we paid out £204 billion in benefits and pensions last year alone. Millions of people find that the welfare system in this country provides a valuable and fair safety net when they need it most—not least pensioners, who benefit from a triple lock that now represents the highest share of earnings received by pensioners in their state pension for more than 20 years.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

I remember the days when the Leader of the House used to say that there ought preferably to be two full days on Report, or at least a day on which there is no statement. Today, a Thursday, is the one day when there will always be a business statement. It is the shortest day, and the most difficult day on which to have proper debate. Why on earth are we having the whole of the Report stage of the Immigration Bill in one afternoon? Since he has effectively conspired with the Chief Whip to make sure that their colleagues do not get to debate all the amendments, will he congratulate the Speaker on stitching him up like a kipper?

[Mr Lansley]

Under the previous Government—indeed, when the hon. Gentleman was Deputy Leader of the House—it was much less common for Bills to have two days on Report, while it was more common to have programme motions to insert knives into debates. As far as I am concerned, we have allocated enough time: Thursday is a normal sitting day—we start two hours earlier, and we finish two hours earlier—and it is entirely normal for questions, such as the business question, to be asked.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

This week, Charlie Webster is running 250 miles and visiting 40 football clubs to raise funds for Women’s Aid and to encourage football clubs, players and fans to unite in the fight against domestic violence. May we have a debate on utilising the power of sport to tackle domestic violence?

[Mr Lansley]

I am very glad to join my hon. Friend in congratulating Charlie Webster on taking up that challenge, which will give not only financial support, but tremendous publicity to something that all hon. Members have collectively shown our commitment to, which is to try to reduce domestic violence in all circumstances and to give people a strong sense of its unacceptability.

[Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)]

Today, the Wales Audit Office has published two damning reports on unlawful payments made from public funds to the chief executive of Carmarthenshire county council. One relates to a serious charge about a pension arrangement that enabled that highly paid public official to evade tax. May we have a statement from the Treasury on guidance issued to public bodies across the British state about the moral obligation of senior public officials to pay their due tax, and about penalties for non-compliance?

[Mr Lansley]

I have seen what the Wales Audit Office has said about the lawfulness of those payments, and I hope that they are exceptional rather than typical. My right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury has been clear about the nature of payments made across the public sector, and he has moved us on from the practices of the past.

[Andrew Bridgen (North West Leicestershire) (Con)]

For 33 years, British lecturers working in Italy have been discriminated against in their employment rights and pay. The Italian Government have ignored six European Court of Justice rulings against them on the issue, but at the end of last year the lecturers, known as the lettori, had some hope when the Italian Foreign and Education Ministers said that they were looking for a solution at last. May we have a statement from the Foreign Office about how that long-running issue might be resolved soon?

[Chris Bryant]

Very good question.

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend does indeed ask a very good question, and an interesting one. If I may, rather than detain the House now, I will ask my right hon. and hon. Friends at the Foreign Office to respond to him. I will be interested in the reply.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

May I begin by congratulating you on your double celebration this week, Mr Speaker—not just an honorary degree from City university but, more importantly, an honorary doctorate from De Montfort university, Leicester, which it was delighted to hand you?

[Chris Bryant]

Utter creep!

[Keith Vaz]

I have learned well from my hon. Friend.

On the subject of education, may I ask the Leader of the House when we can have an urgent statement from the International Development Secretary about the Government’s decision to withdraw from the Government of Yemen £14 million of funding to help with their education system? We do not want Yemen to become another Syria, and the withdrawal of that funding is causing serious problems.

[Mr Lansley]

I will of course ask my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Development to respond to the right hon. Gentleman and, if appropriate, to inform the House by means of a statement.

When we spoke earlier this week, Mr Speaker, modesty clearly forbade you from alerting me to those splendid honours.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

This week, Travellers illegally occupied the Chandos recreation ground in my constituency, creating a climate of fear among residents and concern among people using the park legally. Harrow council has taken prompt action to get them evicted. May we have a statement or a debate in Government time about what further action the Government can take to stop that scourge on our society?

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend will recall a recent statement from Ministers at the Department for Communities and Local Government on policy relating to Travellers. They take the issue extremely seriously. My hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) has a debate in Westminster Hall on Tuesday on policy relating to Gypsies and Travellers, and my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) might well find it helpful to raise the matter then.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Is the Leader of the House aware that at this very moment, the Icelandic Government and Kaupthing Bank, aided and abetted by the accountants Grant Thornton, are filching hundreds of millions of pounds from the UK taxpayer? May we have an early debate on that? It is losing our taxpayers an enormous sum, and nobody in the Treasury seems to care about it.

[Mr Lansley]

In my experience the Treasury cares a great deal about caring for the money of the people of this country, and Treasury Ministers certainly do. Rather than venture into areas with which I am not entirely familiar, I will ask them to respond to the hon. Gentleman about that issue.

[Mr Gary Streeter (South West Devon) (Con)]

May we have a debate in Government time about regional infrastructure, so that we can spell out again the significance to the far south-west of the Paddington rail link, press for improvements to the franchise arrangement so that we can attract greater private sector investment and tell Network Rail and the Environment Agency to stop dithering, start acting and sort out our flood resilience?

[Mr Lansley]

I will not go on at length, but my hon. Friend and other colleagues from the south-west have—quite rightly—stressed the need for resilience and improvement in connections through the south-west, both road and rail. The Environment Agency is currently considering a number of studies on that rail route, and the Department for Transport and the Highways Agency are considering a number of expediting studies relating to the route from the A30/A303.

[Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)]

May we have a debate on how the Metropolitan police investigates fraud? That will allow Members to contrast the cosy relationship between the Met and big business—whereby it assists private prosecutions in return for a share of the compensation—with the treatment of my constituents who have to report even substantial frauds online to Action Fraud. Its pro forma response is, “It’s not possible for the police to investigate every report they receive.” People only hear from the police now if they are able to progress the investigation further. The rest is silence.

[Mr Lansley]

The hon. Gentleman might like to initiate an Adjournment debate on that subject, although I suspect we have just heard the speech.

[Tessa Munt (Wells) (LD)]

May we have a debate on why the lobbyist John Murray, chief executive of the Specialised Healthcare Alliance—an organisation totally funded by powerful drug companies—has been allowed to co-author NHS policy on £12 billion of specialised services, including cancer radiotherapy treatment, with James Palmer, clinical director of NHS England?

[Mr Lansley]

Over many years I have known John Murray to be, in personal terms, somebody who is very expert on specialised health care issues. Whoever happened to be party to the authorship of the policy, the responsibility lies within NHS England. Its job is to ensure that it exercises a dispassionate and impartial approach to the making of policy.

[Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)]

There has been talk of a debate on infrastructure, but is it not time for a debate on the proper roll-out of broadband? Swathes of the country are having problems, despite billions of pounds of public money, and even in Shoreditch we have problems with connectivity, speeds and not-spots. Is it not time for the Government to hold a debate to consider how to embrace new technology and find better ways of using Government money to support infrastructure for a modern country?

[Mr Lansley]

From memory, that issue has been raised repeatedly during questions and in debates. Indeed, it was raised in questions earlier today, and the hon. Lady will have heard—as I did—that Ministers are pursuing every avenue to ensure that we tackle not-spots, as they are described, and meet the fastest possible timetable for the roll-out of superfast broadband.

[Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)]

Has my right hon. Friend seen my early-day motion 937 on the stealth taxes that energy companies charge the poor and pensioners if they do not pay by direct debit?

That this House notes that 17 energy companies are effectively charging consumers extra for not paying by direct debit; condemns those companies for that practice; further notes that four energy companies offer other payment methods at no extra cost; concludes that many companies are charging excessive fees to consumers using alternate payment methods; and therefore urges Ofgem and the Government to investigate those charges.

He will also be aware of the Backbench Business Committee motion in my name, signed by more than 170 MPs, which calls for action on that issue. Will he urge the Government to make a statement on what they can do to help the poorest in our society?

[Mr Lansley]

I have seen the early-day motion and the impressive number of signatures on his Backbench Business Committee motion. I am pleased that the House will have the chance to debate that issue on Tuesday, and the Government will make a statement in the course of that debate.

[Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)]

May we have a statement on the scandal of revolving-door pay deals in the NHS following reorganisation? One manager was paid £370,000 despite not leaving the health service at all. Who is responsible for that incompetence?

[Mr Lansley]

The reforms of the NHS have led to 7,500 fewer managers working in the NHS and, from memory, there are about 10,000 additional clinical staff in the NHS. On the managers, it is completely wrong to interpret the fact that positions become redundant and people leave those jobs with the implication that they are not people who, on a personal basis, should fill posts in the NHS in future. It was always clear at the time—I remember it—that there needed to be a substantial number of people who did not leave the service but transferred elsewhere, and that happened. If a small number came back into employment having taken redundancy, that was a product of the Labour contract from 2006, not a consequence of our policy.

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

With the encouraging news that the manufacturing sector grew by 0.9% in the past quarter, does the Leader of the House agree that we should have a debate on the measures the Government are taking to improve productivity, because progress on that front will lead to higher standards of living for all?

[Mr Lansley]

Yes, my hon. Friend is right. Many people are looking forward positively. My friends at the British Chambers of Commerce reported only this month that manufacturing balances are at an all-time high in terms of positive sentiment, which will lead to business and manufacturing investment. Alongside the steps the Government have taken to support manufacturing, the sector itself, through that investment, looks set to increase productivity and hence competitiveness.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

Given the news of the Crown Prosecution Service’s attempted prosecution of three people who took discarded food from a skip at the back of Iceland—the prosecution has now been dropped—may we have a debate in Government time on the absolutely scandalous levels of food waste in this country in which we can ask the Government to get behind the supermarkets’ attempts to reduce it?

[Mr Lansley]

If the hon. Lady raises that with my hon. Friends at the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when they next respond to questions, she will find them to be sympathetic, as many hon. Members are, to the idea of reducing food waste. Some retailers have taken significant steps in recent weeks to try to reduce waste.

[Mrs Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab)]

May we have a debate jointly with the Department of Health and the Ministry of Justice on how we can limit the lethal nature of helium canisters, which are generally available on public sale, and which are responsible for a growing number of deaths? Can we work with manufacturers on how to reduce the lethal nature of the helium for those who are so disturbed as to use it?

[Mr Lansley]

I cannot immediately promise a debate, but the hon. Lady makes an important point that she might like to pursue by way of an Adjournment debate. Ministers in different Departments will be glad to work together to address the problem she describes.

[Steve McCabe (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab)]

May we have a debate on encouraging business start-ups, and will the Leader of the House join me in congratulating Councillor Eva Philips on her “Make Change” initiative, which launches in my constituency tomorrow, and which brings together NatWest, Social Entrepreneurs Unlimited, Social Breakfast and Hot 500 to offer advice and financial support to young people who want to start their own business?

[Mr Lansley]

I am glad to take this opportunity to join the hon. Gentleman in supporting enterprise in his constituency. If there were an opportunity for a debate, I would welcome one, because we have in excess of 400,000 more businesses in this country. The rate of creation of new businesses is at its highest, I believe, since records began, which bodes well for the future.

[Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)]

The UK Commission for Employment and Skills has found a worsening shortage of skills hindering UK businesses. The amount that employers spend on training has decreased from £1,680 per employee in 2011 to £1,590 in 2013. May we have a statement on whether that is linked to the £56 billion decline in investment in small and medium-sized enterprises since 2010?

[Mr Lansley]

Part of our long-term economic plan is to ensure that we have better skills to support industry. Bringing people into jobs creates many opportunities for those skills to be related directly to work opportunities—we have the highest level of vacancies. However, we are working continuously to ensure that the appropriateness of skills to employment is improved.

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

May we have an urgent debate on why action on the Corston review on women in prisons has stalled across Departments?

[Mr Lansley]

The hon. Lady will forgive me if I am wrong, but my memory is that we had a debate on the Corston report in Westminster Hall. I will check on that and see to what extent I can ensure that the relevant Department adds a response on the issues she raises.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

Yesterday, the Prime Minister ruled out giving more tax cuts to millionaires. In the interests of balance, will the Leader of the House arrange a statement on how much more tax people on incomes of under £10,000 pay as a result of increases in VAT and employees national insurance?

[Mr Lansley]

On the contrary, the Prime Minister rightly stressed the coalition Government’s priority. In tough times, we are ensuring that those with the highest incomes pay a higher proportion of tax, and that low income earners and the lowest paid have their tax reduced by £700. Three million people are out of tax altogether, so those on lower incomes benefit the most from the Government’s tax policies.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I must thank the Leader of the House and Back Benchers for their succinctness. Thirty-nine Back Benchers contributed in 34 minutes of exclusively Back-Bench time, which shows what can be done when the pressure is on us.

Point of Order

Thursday 30th January 2014 Commons Chamber

11:20

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

On a point of order, Mr Speaker. As other hon. Members have pointed out, the Government are heavily amending the Immigration Bill on Report, which means that a substantial Bill is skipping the normal process of scrutiny and extra time is not being given. To make matters worse, the Government have not even bothered to table explanatory statements. They promised that they would do that, when they opposed making them mandatory. Do you agree, Mr Speaker, that their failure to do so now on such a complex measure at the very last moment is a serious abuse of our legislative process, and is there anything you can do about it?

[Mr Speaker]

I thank the hon. Lady for her point of order. I am bound to say that she both looks and sounds very shocked. I hope she will understand when I say that, although she is a very seasoned politician with experience in another Parliament, I have been here a little bit longer and have therefore seen quite a lot of things before and am perhaps not quite as regularly shocked and astonished as she is.

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew Lansley)]

Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. Just so the hon. Lady understands and the House is aware, on explanatory statements on amendments, the Government have made it clear that we will attach explanatory statements on amendments in relation to any Bills introduced after 1 January. The Immigration Bill was not introduced after 1 January.

[Mr Speaker]

I am grateful to the Leader of the House, because that coheres with something I was about to say in any case. There are really two points. First, it is up to Ministers to decide what programming arrangements to put before the House. On 22 October, as the hon. Lady will doubtless recall, the House agreed to a day for Report on this Bill. It is up to Ministers whether to propose any further time. Secondly, on explanatory statements, the House decided that they would not be mandatory. It is indeed up to Ministers, and not to me, whether they are tabled or not. I had been intending in any case to say, and will now do so, that it is my understanding that Ministers will soon be providing such statements as a matter of routine. It would not have applied, as the Leader of the House has explained, in this case. I hope that that is helpful. At any rate, the matter is on the record.

Immigration Bill

Thursday 30th January 2014 Commons Chamber

[Relevant documents: Eighth Report from the Joint Committee on Human Rights on Legislative Scrutiny: Immigration Bill, HC935.]

Consideration of Bill, as amended in the Public Bill Committee

New Clause 11

Supplementary provision

‘(1) This section applies if the referral and investigation scheme is extended by an order under section 48 (an “extension order”).

(2) The Secretary of State may make administrative regulations in connection with the application of the scheme—

(a) to proposed marriages or civil partnerships under the law of Scotland (insofar as the scheme is extended to them), and

(b) to proposed marriages or civil partnerships under the law of Northern Ireland (insofar as the scheme is extended to them).

(3) For that purpose “administrative regulations” means regulations of any kind set out in Schedule (Sham marriage and civil partnership: administrative regulations) (sham marriage and civil partnership: administrative regulations).

(4) The Secretary of State may by order make provision about—

(a) the information that must or may be given, or

(b) the matters in respect of which evidence must or may be given,

in relation to proposed marriages or civil partnerships under the law of Scotland or Northern Ireland in cases where one or both of the parties is not a relevant national.

(5) An order under subsection (4) may amend, repeal or revoke any enactment (including an enactment contained in this Act or in provision made by an extension order or an order under subsection (4)).

(6) If an extension order makes provision (“information disclosure provision”) having similar effect to the provision made by paragraph 2 of Schedule 55 about the disclosure of information for immigration purposes, the Secretary of State may by order specify other immigration purposes (in addition to those specified in provision made by an extension order or in any provision made under this subsection) for which information may be disclosed under the information disclosure provision.

(7) The Secretary of State must consult—

(a) the Registrar General for Scotland before making administrative regulations, or an order under subsection (4), in relation to proposed marriages or civil partnerships under the law of Scotland;

(b) the Registrar General for Northern Ireland before making administrative regulations, or an order under subsection (4), in relation to proposed marriages or civil partnerships under the law of Northern Ireland.

(8) Expressions used in this section or Schedule (Sham marriage and civil partnership: administrative regulations) that are also used in section 48have the same meanings in this section or Schedule (Sham marriage and civil partnership: administrative regulations) as in section 48.’.—(Mrs May.)

Brought up, and read the First time.

11:23

[The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)]

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

[Mr Speaker]

With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:

Government new clause 12—Power to charge fees for attendance services in particular cases.

Government new clause 18—Deprivation of citizenship: conduct seriously prejudicial to vital interests of the UK—

‘(1) In section 40 of the British Nationality Act 1981 (deprivation of citizenship), after subsection (4) insert—

“(4A) But that does not prevent the Secretary of State from making an order under subsection (2) to deprive a person of a citizenship status if—

(a) the citizenship status results from the person’s naturalisation, and

(b) the Secretary of State is satisfied that the deprivation is conducive to the public good because the person, while having that citizenship status, has conducted him or herself in a manner which is seriously prejudicial to the vital interests of the United Kingdom, any of the Islands, or any British overseas territory.”

(2) In deciding whether to make an order under subsection (2) of section 40 of the British Nationality Act 1981 in a case which falls within subsection (4A) of that Act, the Secretary of State may take account of the manner in which a person conducted him or herself before this section came into force.’

Manuscript amendment (a) to Government new clause 18, after proposed new subsection (4A)(b) in subsection (1), insert

‘and

(c) the court gives the Secretary of State permission under subsection (4B).

(4B) (1) This sub-section applies if the Secretary of State:

(a) makes the relevant decisions in relation to an individual in a case which falls within subsection (4A)

(b) makes an application to the court for permission to make an order.

(2) The application must set out how the deprivation is conducive to the public good and how the person, while having that citizenship status, has conducted himself or herself in a manner which is seriously prejudicial to the vital interests of the United Kingdom, and of the islands, or any British overseas territory.

(3) The function of the court on the application is:

(a) to determine whether the relevant decision of the Secretary of State is

obviously flawed, and

(b) to determine whether to give permission to deprive a person of citizenship in a case which falls within subsection (4A)

(4) In determining the application, the court must apply the principles applicable on an application for judicial review.

(5) In a case where the court determines that a decision of the Secretary of State in relation to the conditions set out in subsection (4A)(b) is obviously flawed, the court may not give permission under this section.

(6) In any other case, the court may give permission under this section.’.



Manuscript amendment (b) to Government new clause 18, after subsection (2), insert—

‘(3) The court is the appropriate tribunal for the purposes of section 7 of the Human Rights Act 1998.’.

New clause 13—Right of appeal: Impact assessment—

‘Before the Secretary of State makes an order under section 65 (commencement) to bring into force section 11 (Right of appeal to First-tier Tribunal) he must—

(a) undertake an impact assessment of—

(i) the number of appeals effected by the provisions of section 11; and

(ii) the costs attributable to appeals to First-tier Tribunals; and

(b) lay a copy of a report on that impact assessment before Parliament.’.

New clause 15—Exceptions to automatic deportation—

‘(1) The UK Borders Act 2007 is amended as follows.

(2) In section 33 (Exceptions), in subsection (2)(a), for “Convention rights”, substitute “rights under Articles 2 or 3 of the Convention”.

(3) In section 33, after subsection (6A), insert—

“(6B) Exception 7 is where the Secretary of State thinks, taking into account all the circumstances of the case including the seriousness of the offence, that removal of the foreign criminal from the United Kingdom in pursuance of a deportation order would cause such manifest and overwhelming harm to his children that it overrides the public interest in removal.”.

(4) In section 38 (Interpretation)—

(a) after subsection (3), insert—

“(3A) In section 32, “Convention rights” has the same meaning as in the Human Rights Act 1998 (c. 42).”;

(b) omit paragraph (4)(b);

(c) after subsection (4) insert—

“(4A) In section 33, “rights under Articles 2 or 3 of the Convention” means Articles 2 or 3 of “the Convention” as defined in the Human Rights Act 1998 (c. 42).”.’.

Amendment 74, in clause 1, page 2, line 34, at end add—

‘(7) The Secretary of State shall by order—

(a) ensure that children are not detained for immigration purposes, except in the following circumstances—

(i) where the Home Secretary reasonably believes they are a threat to national security;

(ii) in port or border cases where departure is the following day and no application for a visa or asylum has been made; or

(iii) to provide pre-departure accommodation under subsection (7)(b); and

(b) ensure that if a child requires accommodation prior to departure it is—

(i) dedicated pre-departure accommodation which is subject to inspection by HMIP;

(ii) for a maximum period of 72 hours;

(iii) following a recommendation made by the Independent Family Returns Panel, and

(iv) with their family.

(8) Where subsection (7)(a)(ii) and (iii) applies, the officer responsible must ensure that children are only separated from their parents and carers for the purposes of child protection.’.

Amendment 79, page 2, line 38 leave out clause 3.

Amendment 56, in clause 3, page 2, line 41, at end insert—

‘(1A) In paragraph 16 (detention of persons liable to examination or removal) after paragraph (4) insert—

(5) A person detained under this paragraph must be released on bail in accordance with paragraph 22 after no later than the twenty-eighth day following that on which the person was detained.”.’.

Amendment 57, page 3, line 10, leave out subsection (3) and insert—

‘(3) In paragraph 22 (bail) at end insert—

(4) The following provisions apply if a person is detained under any provision of this Act—

(a) The Secretary of State must arrange a reference to the First-tier Tribunal for it to determine whether the detained person should be released on bail;

(b) The Secretary of State must secure that a first reference to the First-tier Tribunal is made no later than the eighth day following that on which the detained person was detained;

(c) If the detained person remains in detention, the Secretary of State must secure that a second reference to the First-tier Tribunal or Commission is made no later than the thirty-sixth day following that on which the detained person was detained;

(d) The First-tier Tribunal hearing a case referred to it under this section must proceed as if the detained person had made an application to it for bail; and

(e) The First-tier Tribunal must determine the matter—

(i) on a first reference, before the tenth day following that on which the person concerned was detained; and

(ii) on a second reference, before the thirty-eighth day following that on which he was detained.

(5) For the purposes of this paragraph, “First-tier Tribunal” means—

(a) if the detained person has brought an appeal under the Immigration Acts, the chamber of the First-tier Tribunal dealing with his appeal; and

(b) in any other case, such chamber of the First-tier Tribunal as the Secretary of State considers appropriate.

(6) In case of a detained person to whom section 3(2) of the Special Immigration Appeals Commission Act 1997 applies (jurisdiction in relation to bail for persons detained on grounds of national security) a reference under sub-paragraph (3)(a) above, shall be to the Commission and not to the First-tier Tribunal.

(7) Rules made by the Lord Chancellor under section 5 of the Special Immigration Appeals Commission Act 1997 may include provision made for the purposes of this paragraph.”.’.

Amendment 73, page 4, line 23, leave out clause 5.

Amendment 1, page 8, line 19, leave out clause 11.

Government amendment 6.

Amendment 80, in clause 12, page 10, leave out lines 18 to 33.

Government amendment 7.

Amendment 81, page 11, line 32, leave out clause 13.

Amendment 2, in clause 14, page 12, line 22, at end insert—

‘(za) first, to the best interests of any child affected by a decision as specified in section 117A(1).’.

Amendment 3, page 13, line 11, leave out ‘qualifying’.

Amendment 4, page 13, line 12, leave out ‘reasonable to expect’ and insert

‘in the best interests of’.

Amendment 62, page 13, leave out lines 14 to 39 and insert—

117C Cases involving Foreign Criminals

(1) No decision of the Secretary of State under section 33(6B) (Exceptions) of the UK Borders Act 2007 may be questioned except on appeal to the High Court.

(2) For the purposes of determining whether to give permission to appeal and determining any such appeal under subsection (1) the High Court must apply the procedures and principles which would be applied by it on an application for judicial review.’.

Amendment 58, page 13, leave out lines 19 to 39 and insert—

‘(3) The promotion of the best interests of children is in the public interest.’.

Amendment 5, page 13, line 44, leave out from beginning to end of line 3 on page 14.

Government amendments 23 to 26, 45 to 53 and 27.

Amendment 61, in clause 65, page 50, line 27, at end insert—

‘( ) Section 1 and Part II of this Act shall come into force on a day to be appointed, being no earlier than the day on which an order made by the Lord Chancellor under section 9(2)(a) of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2013 in respect of civil legal services in connection with removal under section 1 and appeals under Part II comes into effect.’.

Government new schedule 1—Sham marriage and civil partnership: administrative regulations.

Amendment 60, in schedule 1, page 54, line 13, leave out paragraph (5).

Government amendments 28 to 44, 8 to 16, and 54.

Government motion to transfer paragraph 44 of schedule 8.

[Mrs May]

It might be helpful, before I comment on new clause 11, to set the context in which the amendments and new clauses are being moved.

This is an important Bill. It has, I think, widespread support outside this House, and will ensure that the Government have greater ability to make it harder for people to live in the United Kingdom illegally. It will make it easier for us to be able to remove people who are here illegally and will streamline the process for appeals, reducing the number of appeals from 17 to four. It will also, crucially, enable us, in certain circumstances, to deport individuals before they have their appeals, so that their right of appeal is outside of this country. It also introduces a variety of measures, one of which I will be coming on to speak to, because it relates to some of the technical amendments ensuring that people who come to this country for a temporary period contribute to our public services, as I think every hard-working family would expect them to do. It is this Government who are putting that through in the Bill.

The Bill is important because it will enhance our ability to deal with a number of immigration matters, although that is against the background of our success in reducing net migration into this country and particularly in dealing with the abuse of certain immigration routes, notably student visas. That is the context of these amendments. I take the point made by the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) about the number of amendments, but many of them are very technical and minor amendments.

Government new clause 11 is intended to ensure that the marriage and civil partnership provisions work as effectively as possible. Importantly, part 4 of the Bill will establish a new referral and investigation scheme to prevent sham marriages and civil partnerships from gaining an immigration advantage. Increasingly, sham marriages are being used as a back-door route around immigration rules. The ability to do that has been extended by the Metock case in the European Court, which has enabled people from outside the EU married to someone within the EU to gain free movement rights. There is concern about sham marriages not only in the UK, but in other parts of the EU, and the UK is leading work across Europe.

[Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)]

The right hon. Lady is right about sham marriages, which are an issue I tried to raise last summer. It is crazy that the law does not allow registry offices to provide information on all marriages being sought, where immigration might be an issue, directly to the Home Office. At the moment, Home Office officials have to go and look at the board on the wall in the office. Could we not change the law?

[Mrs May]

The Bill will enable that reporting mechanism. In particular, because we are extending the period that the Home Office has in which to investigate, we should see more cases being investigated. The large number of sham marriages is a problem. Sadly—I am an active member of the Church of England—there have been court cases involving Church of England clergymen actively conducting sham marriages and being brought to justice as a result. It is important, however, that we have the mechanisms in place to deal with that.

[Mel Stride (Central Devon) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend mentions that the notice period for marriages will be extended, which I fully support, but will she also confirm that the Bill will provide for shorter periods in exceptional circumstances? For example, people fighting in our armed forces overseas might, for very legitimate reasons, need a shorter notice period.

[Mrs May]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving me the opportunity to clarify this issue. We will retain that ability, in certain emergency circumstances, to reduce that period for people with an urgent need to marry. It could be in the circumstances he highlights or, for example, where someone is on their deathbed. That is another emergency circumstance we want to cover.

It is important that we can deal fully and properly with sham marriages, and I believe that the Bill will enhance our ability to do that.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

The right hon. Lady will know that marriages and civil partnerships are covered by Scots law and are matters for the Scottish Government. Why, therefore, is there not a legislative consent motion for this or any other part of the Bill? Surely, there should be an LCM in the Scottish Parliament so that these things can be discussed and passed properly.

[Mrs May]

If the hon. Gentleman will have a little patience—I know he might find it difficult—I will explain how the Bill will enable us to discuss such matters with the Scottish Government.

The basic design of the scheme is straightforward, but the statutory framework into which it has to be introduced is complex—marriage law in England and Wales dates back to 1949—which is why we are bringing forward further technical changes. The changes need to be reflected in the law governing civil partnership, thereby doubling the number of amendments that are required. I have said before on a number of occasions that I think it is preferable for the Government not to table too many amendments at this stage, but these are minor and technical. I hope that people will appreciate the importance, when dealing with a part of the law that is so complex, of ensuring that we are able to make amendments to ensure we get it right and that the operation of the law is appropriate.

11:30

[Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con)]

I strongly support the Home Secretary on the extension of the time period so as to make it more difficult for those who wish to engage in sham marriages and illegal enterprises of that sort, but will there be a provision to shorten the period in exceptional circumstances? For example, what about someone serving in Her Majesty’s armed forces who is about to be deployed overseas, or someone suffering from a terminal illness? I am concerned about this. Will the Home Secretary expand on the response she gave a few minutes ago? I have heard of several examples—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. I am extraordinarily grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I think that what might be called by a lawyer the gravamen of his point has been heard. I do not think that a judge in one of the courts in which the hon. Gentleman has served would have allowed him to bang on for the length of time I have allowed him.

[Mrs May]

To clarify, the Bill increases the marriage and civil partnership notice period from 15 to 28 days in England and Wales for all couples, and allows it to be extended to 70 days where there are reasonable grounds to suspect a sham. But we will be retaining the ability in emergency cases such as those set out by my hon. Friend to require the notice period to be shorter than is being provided for.

[Chris Bryant]

I am trying to help the Home Secretary. She referred earlier to clergymen. Will she confirm that she is not changing the law in relation to clergy at all, which actually will still be the weak point in the system?

[Mrs May]

I accept that we are changing the law in relation to the state obligations of civil registrars, which is part of the state apparatus in relation to this matter. There is not a requirement on clergy to report in this way. With his background, I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will share with me a desire to give a clear message that we have considerable concerns where we see clergymen indulging in the practices that I referred to earlier. We have discussed new measures with the Church of England and the Church in Wales and will continue to involve them in our plans for implementation. We are removing bands on the common licence route for non-EEA nationals to ensure that couples within the scope of the referral scheme are correctly identified. I hope that that gives the hon. Gentleman some comfort.

[Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)]

Will the Home Secretary clarify her response to an earlier interjection on registrars notifying the Home Office about impending marriages, which appears to be one of the weaknesses?

[Mrs May]

They will refer all non-EEA marriages to the Home Office, and the purpose of the extension of the notice is that it gives further time for investigations to be conducted. In particular, the possibility of allowing that notice period to be extended to 70 days where there are reasonable grounds to suspect a sham will enable the Home Office to investigate whether there is a genuine relationship and take immigration enforcement action where these are indeed sham cases. That will mean that an immigration advantage cannot be gained by entering into a marriage or civil partnership, if that were to go ahead. The Bill extends the powers for information to be shared by and with registration officials to help tackle these problems of sham marriages, immigration offences and, indeed, wider criminality and abuse.

I promised the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) that I would refer to Scotland. The amendments allow further discussion with colleagues in Scotland and Northern reland about the extension there of the referral and investigation scheme. The new clause and schedule reflect no change in our overall approach but clarify the basis on which the Secretary of State may make regulations for the scheme in Scotland and Northern Ireland.

New clause 11 also makes specific provision for the Secretary of State to make regulations and orders concerning the operation of the referral and investigation scheme in Scotland and Northern Ireland when a clause 48 order has been made to extend the scheme there. Regulations concerning the operation of the scheme in Scotland and Northern Ireland will be subject to consultation with the relevant Registrar General, as they are in England and Wales, and they will be subject to the negative resolution procedure.

New schedule 1 supports the new clause by setting out the purposes for which regulations can be made under it, for example in respect of the specified evidence required of couples referred under the scheme. Amendment 27 to clause 64 provides for any order made under the new clause, for example in respect of the information required to give notice when an non-EEA national is involved, to be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure. Amendments 23 to 26 to clause 52 provide an explicit reference in respect of the requirement for certain non-EEA nationals to give notice at a designated register office of civil partnerships to be formed in Scotland or Northern Ireland, in a similar manner to the existing provision relating to England and Wales, and it clarifies the requirements in such cases.

Amendments 28 and 29 to schedule 4 reflect the fact that the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013 will, where applicable, allow same-sex couples to provide evidence of consent to a same-sex marriage from their religious organisation’s relevant governing authority after notice of marriage has been given. The amendments will ensure that such couples are not prevented from giving notice if they do not yet have the evidence.

Amendment 30 to schedule 4 ensures that the requirement to provide additional information at the point of giving notice does not apply to a proposed marriage between former civil partners one of whom has changed sex. Amendment 37 to schedule 4 is an equivalent provision for a proposed civil partnership between former spouses one of whom has changed sex. Such couples will not be within the scope of the referral scheme, because no immigration advantage could be obtained from the marriage or civil partnership, and there is therefore no need for the provision of the additional information.

Amendments 31 to 33 to schedule 4, which relate to marriage, and amendments 38 to 40 to schedule 4, which relate to civil partnership, clarify the drafting of the requirement for additional information from couples who are within the scope of the scheme. They also limit the requirement to provide details of other names and aliases that are used to couples when one or both parties state that they do not have the appropriate immigration status or a relevant visa, or state that they have it but provide no evidence. Amendments 34 and 42 to schedule 4 make minor drafting corrections.

Amendment 35 to schedule 4, which relates to marriage, and amendment 41 to schedule 4, which relates to civil partnership, ensure that the Secretary of State notifies the couple, as well as the registration official, of the decision on an application to shorten the notice period in exceptional circumstances in a case referred under the scheme.

Amendment 36 to schedule 4, which relates to marriage, does two things. First, it makes a consequential change reflecting the new notice provisions. Secondly—along with amendment 43, which relates to civil partnership—it ensures that the legal validity of a marriage or civil partnership cannot be challenged just because notice of a decision under the referral and investigation scheme was not properly given by the Secretary of State.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Let me give the Home Secretary some time in which to take a breath before she continues to go through her 50 amendments. Does she think it unfortunate that the Government did not include the amendments in the original Bill, rather than tabling them on Report and not giving us enough time to debate them?

[Mrs May]

When my hon. Friend made a similar point during Home Office Questions on Monday, I said that I thought that it was always better for the Government to be able to ensure that they had covered every aspect of a Bill in the original drafting, and I am sure that that view is shared throughout the House. However, as I said at the beginning of my speech today, these are very technical issues, many of which, including some that I shall discuss later, were raised in Committee. It was appropriate for the Government to respond to the points that were raised then, and to table amendments accordingly when that proved necessary.

Amendment 44 to schedule 5 will enable registration officials to disclose information about reports of suspected shams to the Registrar General under sections 24 and 24A of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999, as well as to other registration officials and the Secretary of State. That will support inter-agency work to tackle sham marriages and civil partnerships. New clause 12, which I tabled, relates to the deprivation of citizenship.

[Michael Ellis]

Does the Home Office have any idea how many people are gaining immigration status through the route of sham marriages or civil partnerships? Is that an easily ascertainable figure, even if it is an approximation?

[Mrs May]

It is not an easily ascertainable figure. The proposals that we are discussing will enable us to investigate more cases. We have made assumptions based on marriage registration statistics, the volume of reports of suspected sham cases from registrars and feedback from immigration caseworkers who deal with applications that are made on the basis of marriage or civil partnership. The resulting estimate was that between 4,000 and 10,000 applications a year are made to the Home Office on the basis of a sham marriage or civil partnership. My hon. Friend will see from the breadth of the estimate that we need to approach the matter with caution, but it does give a guide to the potential scale of the abuse. There are details in the explanatory paper that we have published on part 4 of the Bill. I expect these provisions to give us a greater ability to identify cases, and therefore to ascertain the number of them.

I apologise to the House, because I was getting ahead of myself in setting out my new clauses. New clause 12 relates to fees. I will come on to the new clause that relates to the deprivation of citizenship afterwards. On fees, we remain committed to ensuring that the UK continues to attract tourists and the brightest and best migrants, including those who are considered to be commercially important to the UK. To ensure that we can do that, it is important that our immigration and visa services are a match for or better than those provided anywhere else in the world.

In a number of important respects, our visa services are already world class. We have expanded and improved the network of visa application centres. There are now 200 around the world, with 12 in each of India and China compared to the three or four that are on offer from most of our competitors. We have introduced online application and booking systems, and 95% of applications are now submitted online. Online applications are supported by translated help text and extensive web guidance. We have also established a business network with dedicated UK visa staff to assist businesses with their visa requirements. All of that is in line with our desire to attract the brightest and best to the UK.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

I endorse everything that the Home Secretary has said about the international section of the Home Office. Does she think that there is an opportunity for more face-to-face interviews to be conducted in the posts abroad, or at least for people to be interviewed from this country through the new system of televised interviews?

[Mrs May]

The right hon. Gentleman raises the important matter of face-to-face interviews. I have made it very clear that I want to increase the number of such interviews. We reached the number that I had hoped for by the end of the year, which was 100,000. Some of the interviews are physically face-to-face and some, as he has indicated, take place remotely through the use of video screens. That is an important tool in ensuring that people who apply for visas meet the criteria that have been set. I have seen interviews take place in a couple of countries overseas and have seen that the ability of our entry clearance officers to make judgments is enhanced considerably by conducting interviews, rather than just looking at a piece of paper. We have already achieved 100,000 interviews, but I want to see how we can extend that further across the visa system.

11:45

In addition to the elements I have already described, we also offer a world-leading range of optional premium services, known as added-value services. These offer faster processing or added convenience, and are provided in response to customer demand. They are of particular value to VIPs and other high net worth individuals who want to come to the UK to visit, work or study. Most of these services are standardised, in that the level of activity required to deliver the service can easily be defined.

Examples of the added-value services include three to five-day priority visa services available in more than 60 countries, including Russia, China, India and some Gulf states. We are expanding this to more than 90 by spring this year. They also include prime-time appointment services, available in 10 locations, offering extended opening hours for those who need the convenience of an appointment outside usual business hours. In India, we have introduced the “super priority” visa service, which allows regular visitors, business visitors and tier 2 applicants to get their visa processed in just 24 hours.

[Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)]

May I ask the Home Secretary about the current arrangements for issuing visas to travellers from Iran? I draw the attention of the House to the fact that I am co-chairman of the all-party parliamentary group on Iran. As a result of the invasion of the embassy at the end of 2011, we do not have an operational visa section—or any other section—in Tehran, and anyone applying for a visa has to go to Istanbul or Dubai. Many of those people then have to wait for days for their visa to be issued. Those people often have connections here. Will the right hon. Lady discuss this matter with the Foreign Secretary to see whether those arrangements could be speeded up?

[Mrs May]

I of course understand the right hon. Gentleman’s point. As he said, there are good reasons why we do not have the physical capacity for people to make their visa applications in Tehran. I will be happy to look into the processing that takes place in Dubai and Istanbul, and to see whether there is any way to ensure that the service can be of a higher standard.

[Mr Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East) (Con)]

In the same vein, concern has been expressed about the distances that people in China and Russia have to travel in order to get their visa applications processed. Will my right hon. Friend update the House on what is being done to ensure that the high-value customers that we are looking for do not have to travel thousands of miles to get a visa to come to Britain?

[Mrs May]

As I have said, we have been enhancing the various services that we are able to provide in a number of countries; that includes the expansion of our network of visa application centres. My hon. Friend mentioned Russia and China. In China, we have more visa application centres than any of the other Schengen countries. We have 12 such centres there; most of our competitors have only three or four. We are also constantly working with the tour groups that bring people over to the United Kingdom, to see how we can enhance the service that we offer. The ability to apply online is also important. Yes, we require biometrics to be taken, but we are enhancing our biometric capture capability. For example, in certain cases the biometric capture capability can go to the individual applying for the visa, rather than the individual being required to go to the visa application centre. So we are enhancing these services, and we are conscious of the issues that he has raised.

[Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con)]

May I support what the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) has just said about people from Iran? I have a constituent who was in exactly the situation that has been mentioned. His parents had to go to Istanbul to apply for visas. They then had to decide whether to go back to Iran or to hang around in Istanbul for three or four weeks to see whether they could come here. They were left in limbo, and we really need a fast-track service to deal with the parents and other relatives of people of Iranian descent in the UK who want to come here to visit them.

[Mrs May]

I hear what my hon. Friend says and understand the real example that he gives of the problems that can arise. As I said to the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), I will indeed go away and look at the whole issue of how visas are being processed and the length of time that it is taking.

Earlier, I said that we had introduced a super priority visa service in India, which allows a visa to be processed in 24 hours. We will expand that service to China by summer this year, and to other locations by the end of the year. In China, Russia and southern India, we are offering a passport pass-back service for applicants who wish to retain their passport to travel or to apply for a visa to another country while their UK visa is being processed. As a result of such improvements, we have achieved customer service excellence accreditation in at least one visa-processing hub in each of our six global regions. I hope that that is good news for the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), the Chairman of the Home Affairs Committee, who has had a longstanding concern about the services that are provided by the former UK Border Agency, which has now been broken up.

There is also strong demand for the bespoke services from overseas customers, who want us to go to them to deliver a visa service. Up to now, those bespoke services have been offered on a small-scale trial basis, mainly in China and the USA, to test demand and ensure viability. It is clear that demand for such services is strong, and we want to roll them out further. Neither the existing fees legislation nor the current Immigration Bill provisions provides powers that would enable a workable charging arrangement to be made for bespoke services. That only became clear after the Bill had been introduced.

Charging for statutory functions, whether connected to immigration or otherwise, is a technical area. As well as legislation and common-law precedent, there is much detailed guidance, such as “Managing Public Money”, which is published by the Treasury. The legislation and the guidance are there to ensure that the imposition of fees by public bodies, including Government Departments, is transparent, consistent and subject to proper scrutiny.

Fees for commercial services that are not connected to statutory functions are treated differently. For example, there is no requirement to set out in legislation fees for commercial services. It became clear after the Bill had been introduced that it would not be appropriate to treat bespoke services as commercial services and that the provisions in the Bill, while providing additional flexibility, would not be sufficient to enable a charging arrangement that would work in the real world. The main issue is that the services are bespoke. In other words, they vary considerably from one customer to another. That contrasts with other premium services, which are generally similar where they are delivered. For example, a bespoke service may compromise a member of staff visiting a customer at a location close to the visa centre. It could involve two members of staff travelling by air to another country with security escorts and overnight accommodation. It could involve the provision of services to several people, or several members of staff could be hiring a venue to provide services to a number of a firm’s employees.

The cost of providing a service could vary from around £100 to several thousand pounds depending on the precise nature of the request. It is not possible to use regulations to set out fees that take account of all the possible service variations that could apply, so we have made a new clause that enables fees for those services to be set without the need for regulations. In making those changes, we were keen to ensure that their effect was limited to this narrow but important range of bespoke services overseas. We do not want to take away the need for regulations on other visa and immigration fees, or deliberate restrictions on bespoke services fees to apply to charging for other premium services. To achieve that, we have separated out the part of the service that involves getting staff to the location of the customers’ choosing from the immigration services that may then be provided. The attendance service fee covers all the costs to the Home Office of our commercial visa partners preparing to deliver chargeable immigration functions. To put that plainly, it means that the cost of commercial partners’ staff time, travel, accommodation, security, venue hire and so on is charged as an attendance service fee. The fee will be priced on application, agreed between the customers making the request and the commercial partner based on the specific requirements of the service.

The cost of any related visa applications and any other premium services, such as accelerated processing, will be charged separately based on fee levels set out in the regulations. As a result, while the new clause permits fees to be charged without the need for regulations, several safeguards are in place. For example, the provisions apply only to bespoke services overseas delivered by our commercial visa partners. The services are optional and may be provided only at a customer’s request, and the fees may reflect only the cost to the Home Office of providing the service, and must be agreed by the customer in advance.

New clause 12 ensures that we may continue with our plan to expand the availability of bespoke mobile services overseas. Subsection (1) makes it clear that the attendance service provisions may apply when they are connected to a chargeable immigration function and provided at a time and place requested by a customer overseas. Subsection (3) ensures that the provisions still apply when the service is connected to a chargeable function, even if no charge is imposed. For example, if the visa application fee is waived for any reason, it would still be possible to offer and charge for the bespoke service. Subsection (2) ensures that the attendance service charging arrangements apply only to bespoke services and cannot be extended to cover other chargeable functions. Fees for those other functions will, as I say, continue to be set out in regulations as they are at present.

Subsection (4) provides that the customer will be charged the costs incurred in attending the location of his or her choosing at a time specified by him or her. Such costs include, but are not limited to, the cost of travel, including flights, hotel costs, security costs, the cost of hiring a venue, and staff costs. As I said, the fee will be charged outside the fees regulations.

The costs for overseas bespoke mobile VIP services will be based on the actual cost of providing the service and will not be set with regard to the criteria set out in clause 61(5), which include growth, international comparisons and benefit. All costs will be agreed between the commercial provider and the customer before the service is delivered.

Subsections (5) to (7) of the new clause ensure that the provisions on the treatment of fees paid for chargeable functions and debt recovery also apply in respect of fees paid for attendance services and that the new clause does not undermine other legislation.

Amendments 45 and 46 are consequential and ensure that the attendance service provisions fit within the wider immigration and visa fees framework established by the Bill. Amendment 46 replaces the wording in clause 60 that is being removed as part of amendment 45 and provides that fees other than for the overseas bespoke mobile service can be calculated by one or a combination of the following factors: a fixed amount, a per hour amount, or another factor. It states that the maximum amount for the fee or other factor must be set out in a fees order, a minimum amount may be set and that the actual amount of a particular fee will be set out in regulations. When fees are set by an hourly rate or other factor, the regulations will detail how the fee will be determined—for example, £50 per hour. Those provisions will not apply to the fee for the provision of the overseas bespoke mobile VIP service.

Amendments 47 to 53 are minor consequential changes to clause 60 to ensure that it does not limit or affect the proposed clause 61. Amendment 54 is a minor consequential change to schedule 8 to ensure that there is no effect on clauses 60 to 62.

Let me now come to the issue on which I got slightly ahead of myself earlier, which is new clause 18 and the deprivation of citizenship. As we move on to this important issue and before we get on to the specifics of what the clause seeks to achieve, it might help the House if I give some background to put it in context.

Depriving people of their citizenship is a serious matter. It is one of the most serious sanctions a state can take against a person and it is therefore not an issue that I take lightly. As I am sure all Members who were around during the passage of the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 and the Immigration, Asylum and Nationality Act 2006 will recall, it can be a subject that generates lively debate.

It is noteworthy that depriving people of their citizenship is a concept with a long history. Almost as soon as world war one broke out, demands were made for denaturalisation of enemy aliens on grounds of disloyalty and/or their German past. That is the origin of the power. Before the war was over, legislation had been passed that made provision for revocation of citizenship if a naturalised person was suspected of treasonable activities. It has subsequently been amended to cover matters such as overt disloyalty, criminality, absence from the UK without maintaining a connection, through to it being conducive to the public good to deprive.

We are not seeking a wholly new power. The law as it stands today allows me as Home Secretary to deprive a person of their citizenship status in two scenarios. The first is when the person acquired it using fraud, false representation or concealment of a material fact. Essentially, that means that they used deception to obtain citizenship when had we known the full true facts at the time we would not have granted them that citizenship. The other circumstance is the reason why I am satisfied that doing so is conducive to the public good and that the person would not be left stateless as a result.

12:00

[Keith Vaz]

The Home Secretary is right that she seeks to amend a very important part of the Bill. When she appeared before the Home Affairs Committee on 16 December we raised the case of Mohammed Ahmed Mohamed, who was in Somaliland. He did not want to return to the United Kingdom, but Charles Farr told the Committee, and the Home Secretary supported this in her evidence, that there was an obligation to bring him back. There was no legal justification for taking away his citizenship or preventing him from returning. Is she now telling the House that the new clause gives her the legal basis to prevent a British citizen involved in terrorist activities abroad from returning to the United Kingdom because she can strip that person of citizenship and leave them stateless? Does it give her that power?

[Mrs May]

If the right hon. Gentleman will have a little patience, I will explain exactly what the new clause does. It extends the Secretary of State’s powers to deprive someone of citizenship. It is in response to a particular case—not the one that he has quoted—which I will describe in order to set the background in a way that I hope will be helpful for the whole House. The right hon. Gentleman has a knowledge and understanding of these issues, but it would be helpful to set out the whole background.

[Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)]

I apologise for not being here for the start of the debate. The Home Secretary referred to her powers where someone has obtained citizenship by fraudulent means. There may have been strong mitigating circumstances when someone made such an application. For example, we know that some years ago many people came to the country on false documents because they had been persecuted. They may have applied on a false basis, but there were strong mitigating circumstances—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

Order. I know that this is complicated and many Members want to speak. May I clearly ask for your assistance. Will any Member making an intervention try to make it brief?

[Mrs May]

If citizenship was granted purely because someone used fraud or deception, did not disclose a material fact or used incorrect facts, and if we would not have granted citizenship had we known the full facts, the decision would be to deprive that individual of citizenship. I will not comment on the type of case that the hon. Lady has set out, but the initial question would be whether citizenship would have been granted if the full circumstances had been known at the time of the application. If the full facts had been known, would the decision have been not to grant citizenship? If so, the decision would be to remove citizenship.

[Sarah Teather (Brent Central) (LD)]

Yesterday the House heard many noble speeches about our international obligations and humanitarian protection led by the Home Secretary. I was the first to congratulate her on that. Today, as the clause is drafted, she appears to be asking for a blank cheque to remove people’s rights to have rights. I wonder whether she can see the irony in that and whether our international leadership does not also cover such an important fundamental right?

[Mrs May]

My hon. Friend and I have discussed this matter. I do not accept her description of what we are putting through in this Bill. We are not asking for a blank cheque. There are specific and limited circumstances in which the power would be used, which I will describe to the House. We are not suggesting that we put the United Kingdom into a situation that it has not been in before. We are suggesting that we put the United Kingdom into the situation that is required by the UN convention to which it has signed up. A decision was taken a few years ago to go beyond that UN convention. We think it is right to go back to the UN convention.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

The Home Secretary knows that we are dealing with complex and serious issues, so will she explain why she tabled the new clause 24 hours before Report without consulting any outside bodies? The situation is such that we have had to table manuscript amendments to deal with serious concerns about it. Will she explain why she is acting with such urgency today, rather than allowing for consultation before introducing a measure in another place that could then be examined by both Houses?

[Mrs May]

If the right hon. Gentleman will allow me, I shall set out why we thought it was necessary to table the new clause and how we have considered the matter. I accept that the Opposition have tabled manuscript amendments. While I wait to hear what he will say about them, if there are specific concerns, I will be willing to consider them and, if necessary, address them further in another place.

The new clause is a consequence of a specific case. The power to deprive on conducive grounds is such that even when I consider the first and arguably the most important part of the test to be met—that it would be conducive to the public good to deprive—I am still prevented from depriving a person of their citizenship if they would be left stateless as a result. That was the point explored in the Supreme Court case of al-Jedda.

[Dr Julian Huppert (Cambridge) (LD)]

Will the Home Secretary help me to understand what is being proposed? There is a question of British citizens overseas, to which the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) referred, and another of what would happen to someone in the UK who was made stateless. What would such a person’s immigration status be, as there would be nowhere to remove them to? Would we not be trapping someone who was dangerous to this country in this country?

[Mrs May]

When I explain the circumstances in which it would be possible to remove somebody’s citizenship, I hope that my hon. Friend will realise that it would not necessarily be the case that an individual would be left stateless, because we are talking about a situation in which they would be able to acquire statehood from somewhere else.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mrs May]

Perhaps hon. Members will have some patience and let me set out my points.

I will not to go into too much detail about the case of al-Jedda, but he was an Iraqi refugee who was granted British nationality in 2000. In 2004, he was detained by British forces in Iraq because of his suspected involvement in terrorism. In December 2007, the then Home Secretary made an order depriving him of his British citizenship.

[Chris Bryant]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. As far as I can see, there are no copies of the manuscript amendments on the Table. It seems bizarre, on the matter of whether people should be deprived of their citizenship—[Interruption.] The Minister for Immigration can keep quiet for a moment. The reason we need manuscript amendments is that the Government tabled their new clause only at the very last minute to try to shove other measures off the agenda. Can we ensure that the manuscript amendments are available to everyone so that we know what we are debating?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

I understand that copies of the manuscript amendments are available in the Vote Office—

[Chris Bryant]

They should be on the Table.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. I have not finished my sentence yet. It would be helpful if that could be checked, although I am assured that they are available, and if copies could be made available in the Chamber for Members who feel unable to get to the Vote Office because they wish to hear the debate.

[Mrs May]

I hope that the manuscript amendments, which were tabled by Opposition Front Benchers, are indeed available in the Vote Office.

As I said, in December 2007, one of my predecessors deprived the individual of his British citizenship. That gave rise to lengthy litigation, which culminated in a Supreme Court hearing in June 2013, with the verdict promulgated in October 2013. The Court—disappointingly to my mind—rejected my assertion that the individual could reassert his Iraqi nationality and that his failure to do so was the cause of his statelessness. Its conclusion was that the question was simply whether the person held another nationality at the date of the order depriving them of British citizenship.

Having studied the Supreme Court determination carefully and considered my options, I asked my officials to explore the possibility of legislating to address the key point identified in the al-Jedda case, namely that our domestic legislation, and the changes brought about in the 2002 and 2006 Acts, go further than is necessary to honour our international obligations in terms of limiting our ability to render people stateless.

That may have been well intended. It was done, as I believe, in anticipation of signing the 1997 European convention on nationality. We have never signed that convention and this Government have no plans to do so.

It is also important to stress—it is a point that has been made by a couple of Members already in interventions—that I have discussed this at length with colleagues across Government; it is not something I have just decided on. Given the importance of the subject matter, we wanted the time to ensure that we got it right. Indeed, I had a meeting with my hon. Friends in the Liberal Democrat parliamentary party on 4 December last year to discuss the proposal and listen to their concerns and the issues they wished to raise.

The United Kingdom has signed the 1961 UN convention on the reduction of statelessness. We made a declaration on ratifying that convention to allow for the prospect of leaving a person stateless in certain circumstances. Those circumstances include the ability to deprive a naturalised person of their citizenship, regardless of whether or not it might leave them stateless, where that person has conducted themselves in a manner seriously prejudicial to the vital interests of Her Britannic Majesty.

[Alok Sharma (Reading West) (Con)]

I am a naturalised British citizen and the clause therefore applies to me. I support it wholeheartedly. There are rights as well as obligations that come with British citizenship. Perhaps my right hon. Friend should go even further—the Immigration Bill may not be the place to do so—and introduce similar sanctions against anyone who is British, irrespective of how they got British citizenship, if they do something so heinous against the British state.

[Mrs May]

My hon. Friend makes an important point about his position and also about the desire that we have in the House to ensure that we can take appropriate action against people who are acting in a manner that is not conducive to the public good and who are acting in a manner that is seriously prejudicial to this country’s interests.

New clause 18 recreates—

[Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab)]

When I first became a Member of this House, anyone born in Britain automatically became a British citizen. That right was taken away by the Thatcher Government. Will this law apply to the children of people who have acquired British citizenship?

[Mrs May]

It applies to somebody who is a naturalised person. That is who it applies to. It seeks to recreate the very specific sub-set of cases that are currently provided for under the “conducive” power. It would allow me to deprive a person of their citizenship, regardless of whether it left them stateless, but as I say, it applies only to those who are naturalised, not those who are British by birth or those who register to acquire citizenship under other provisions of the 1981 Act—

[Frank Dobson]

rose—

[Mrs May]

If the right hon. Gentleman would wait—such as those which provide for children to acquire British citizenship. And it would apply only to very serious cases of people whose conduct is

“seriously prejudicial to the vital interests of the United Kingdom”.

Those safeguards and limitations are important. The amendment will allow the key consideration to be whether the person’s actions are consistent with the values we all attach to British citizenship. We may all have a slightly different interpretation of what they might be, but I am confident that Members of this House would agree that this is encapsulated by the oath that naturalised citizens take when they attend their citizenship ceremonies.

[Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend will know that for some time I have asked for the Home Office to look at the 11% of foreign prisoners in the Prison Service in England and Wales, see where there is dual citizenship and have that UK citizenship withdrawn from those who have committed the most serious offences, yet only a handful of people have had their citizenship withdrawn. How does that position reconcile with the new position today, which I support? It may stand the legal test here up to the Supreme Court if it went that far, but—a secondary question—would it stand the test of the European courts?

12:15

[Mrs May]

I understand my hon. Friend’s point about foreign national offenders. The Government are conducting an exercise to ensure that we can deport more foreign national offenders from our prisons to serve the remainder of their sentence elsewhere, and the prisoner transfer agreements that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Justice is negotiating are an important part of that. However—this is the important point—this power applies in a very particular set of circumstances in which someone has conducted themselves in a manner seriously prejudicial to the vital interests of Her Britannic Majesty. The power being put into the Bill will apply in only a very limited number of circumstances. My hon. Friend also asked whether it would stand the test elsewhere. I believe that it will. What we are doing is returning the United Kingdom to the position set out in our international obligations under the United Nations convention.

[Mr Jim Cunningham]

I thank the Home Secretary for giving way; she is being most generous. I realise that this is a very difficult issue. What happens if another country will not take the individual who has been stripped of their citizenship?

[Mrs May]

The individual would then be stateless. It would depend on where they were. The whole point of the measure is to be able to remove certain people from the United Kingdom, which we are currently unable to do. If they are declared stateless—[Interruption.]

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mrs May]

I recognise that there are many questions that Members wish to ask on this. I am answering the questions and taking as many interventions as Members are requiring. I will give way again shortly.

A stateless person is defined by article 1.1 of the 1954 convention relating to the status of stateless persons as one

“who is not considered as a national by any State under the operation of its law.”

If they are inside the UK, we, as a party to that convention, are legally obliged to comply with its provisions, which set out various rights for stateless people. One of our aims in seeking to deprive might be to remove the individual from the United Kingdom, as I have indicated. It might not always be possible to do that, especially when the individual is stateless. If they are deprived, they become subject to immigration control, but we have provisions in the immigration rules that enable a person regarded as stateless to regularise their stay.

[Mike Thornton (Eastleigh) (LD)]

One of the things that concern me is the definition of “seriously prejudicial.” If we look up “prejudice” in the dictionary, we see that it just means something we have decided before, so “seriously prejudicial” could be anything a Home Secretary liked. I am absolutely convinced that the present Home Secretary would never in any way abuse that power, but how do we know what will happen next week, next month, in two years’ time, or in five years’ time? A Home Secretary will be able to use a term that is so vague and has so little meaning that they could strip someone of any citizenship, leaving them stuck in this country with no ability to work, receive benefits or do anything at all, simply because of a definition that is pretty much meaningless.

[Mrs May]

I think that the concept of something that is seriously prejudicial to the interests of Her Britannic Majesty—to the interests of the United Kingdom—will be understood. There will of course be an opportunity for a review of that through a court process—a judicial review—so the definition would be tested. My hon. Friend might not choose to rely on the abilities or understanding of future Home Secretaries, but I hope that he will see that there is a further safeguard.

I wish to reiterate—this is an important point—that that is the position the United Kingdom had prior to 2003, when the law was changed. It is the position that we are required to have under the United Nations convention. All that we are doing is returning our position to the scope of our declaration under that convention. It goes no further.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

In response to an intervention, the Home Secretary said that at some point a stateless person’s position in the UK could be regularised, which is an interesting concept. If they became stateless, they would in the meantime presumably become destitute in this country, because they would not be eligible for access to any benefits or other aspects of society. Has she considered that, and are there any people in that situation at present?

[Mrs May]

The answer to the second question is that there are no people in that situation, because I have not been able to deprive anybody of their citizenship and therefore potentially make them stateless. That is the existing situation. If somebody is stateless and either does not apply for citizenship of another state despite having access or is denied permission to do so, but stays in the United Kingdom, we would have to look at the situation and at their immigration status. Crucially, their status would not attract the privileges of a British citizen—they would not be entitled to hold a British passport or to have full access to certain services—so they would therefore be in a different position from the one they were in when they held British citizenship.

[Keith Vaz]

I am most grateful to the Home Secretary for giving way for a second time. I understand what she is trying to do and I believe her when she says that she will use the powers only rarely, but she still has not answered this question: once she has taken away citizenship from someone in this country and they are stateless, how will she get them out of this country? We know full well that she is doing this because Jacqui Smith tried to get rid of al-Jedda and was not able to do so. That matter is still before the courts, and the right hon. Lady’s judgment will also be challenged in the courts. How will she get such people out once she has taken away their British passport and they have no travel documents?

[Mrs May]

The al-Jedda case went to the Supreme Court, which promulgated its verdict last October, which was when we started to look at how we could legislate and what vehicle we could use to remove people. That circumstance might apply to somebody in the United Kingdom or, as in that case, to someone outside it. The important point is that the process applies in cases where the individual could access the citizenship of another country, and it would be open to them to apply for such citizenship. That is the whole point.

[Mark Pritchard]

I am grateful to the Home Secretary for being very generous in giving way again. She may recall the case of Abu Hamza, who was an Egyptian citizen as well as a British one. Under the Government of Mubarak, the former President of Egypt, his Egyptian citizenship was withdrawn, leaving a very difficult case for this Government and, indeed, the previous one to deal with. The Home Secretary has surely come to the House with some figure in her mind of the number of those currently on the prison estate who might fall into the Abu Hamza category. I wondered what the number is.

[Mrs May]

My only comment on my hon. Friend’s request for figures is that he mentioned people on the prison estate. We are not necessarily talking about them, but the number of people involved is very limited. The number of cases of the particular type of deprivation of citizenship dealt with since the law was changed—I apologise for saying that that was in 2003, because the law was changed by the 2006 Act—is 27. Since 2006, 27 people have been deprived of citizenship under the conducive powers, which apply only when somebody would not be made stateless.

[Mark Pritchard]

For clarification, is it the Government’s position that someone considered under the new criterion would not need to have committed any criminal or terrorism-related offence, but could be walking around the streets of London right now?

[Mrs May]

Yes. People need not have been convicted of a particular offence to be deprived of their citizenship. On the numbers, it might be helpful for me to add that 13 people were deprived on grounds of fraud during the same period. Those are the sort of numbers that we are talking about.

[Mr David Ward (Bradford East) (LD)]

rose—

[Pete Wishart]

rose—

[Mrs May]

I will give way to my hon. Friend and then to the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart).

[Mr Ward]

If the individual who was doing something seriously prejudicial stopped doing it, would their citizenship be reinstated?

[Mrs May]

The reinstatement of somebody’s citizenship would not be automatic, but if they returned to the United Kingdom with the citizenship of another state and lived here for a period, their immigration status would be considered on the basis of their case.

[Mr Julian Brazier (Canterbury) (Con)]

I am most grateful to my right hon. Friend, who has been extraordinarily generous in giving way. I broadly support this measure, which addresses a small number of very serious cases, but can it be applied to somebody abroad at the time? If it can be so applied, how would any subsequent appeal handle sensitive intelligence material of the sort that clearly could not be allowed to go, for example, to Strasbourg?

[Mrs May]

The measure would apply to somebody who was abroad. One of the points that I have tried to make is that the measure is not just about people in the United Kingdom, but people outside it.

[Pete Wishart]

Will the Home Secretary give way?

[Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

Will the Home Secretary give way?

[Mrs May]

I must tell my hon. Friend that I have a list: I said that I would give way to the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire.

[Pete Wishart]

I am very grateful to the Home Secretary for giving way. Is it not the case that she has not got a clue? She has brought forward the measure to prevent proceedings on what Conservative Members want to discuss and vote on. To say that this was concocted on the back of a fag packet would do a massive disservice to fag-packet speeches.

[Mrs May]

It is a bit rich of the Scottish National party to talk about not having a clue. I must say to the hon. Gentleman—I have said it before and I will say it again as many times as necessary—that we are giving effect to our declaration under the United Nations convention. That position applied in the United Kingdom until the previous Government changed the law in 2006, and we will return to that position.

[Mr Cash]

I am sure that my right hon. Friend appreciates that the way in which the provision is expressed will give the Secretary of State enormous power. Effectively, it involves the opinion of the Secretary of State, which will make it largely non-justiciable. Given its width and the cases of which the Home Secretary has given examples, is there a danger that we might be regarded as a nasty party if we put this kind of provision into effect?

[Mrs May]

The simple answer to my hon. Friend is no.

[Michael Ellis]

Despite the protestations and mock indignation of Labour Members—

[Pete Wishart]

And us.

[Michael Ellis]

And of course of the Scottish nationalists, who are adopting their usual posture. Is it not correct that this law was effectively on the statute book previously, so it cannot be all that exceptionable and that it was repealed by the Labour party because, in 1997, it wanted to sign us up to another European convention?

12:30

[Mrs May]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for actually listening to what I have said this afternoon. He is absolutely right. The previous Government changed the law because they were going to sign up to the new European convention on nationality, but they did not do so. We have not signed up to it, and we do not intend to do so. It is therefore right to take the law back to the previous position, which is that of our international obligation under the United Nations convention.

[Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)]

May I press the Home Secretary on our international position under the 1961 convention on the reduction of statelessness, to which we are a signatory? My understanding is that we would be required to seek a reservation from that convention. Is that correct, or does she plan that the UK should operate in contravention of it?

[Mrs May]

Our proposal is completely consistent with it. We put a declaration into the original UN convention, and we are taking the position back to what was set out in that declaration.

[Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab)]

The right hon. Lady has been speaking for well over an hour and we are only a proportion of the way through the amendments in this group. Is this any way to make legislation?

[Mrs May]

The reason I have been on my feet for more than an hour is that I have been incredibly generous in taking interventions from Members in all parts of the House. This is an important Bill, which we must get right, and an important new clause. I am taking interventions on new clause 18 in particular because I recognise that Members have not had as long to consider it as they would perhaps have wished.

The Government have been considering the matter since we saw the result of the al-Jedda case. I specifically asked officials whether there was anything that we could do to ensure that we would be able to take action against people whose activities, particularly those related to terrorism, were seriously prejudicial to the state. Lo and behold, we discovered that had it not been for the law that the last Government passed, I would have been able to deprive al-Jedda of citizenship.

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

As another naturalised British national, I fully support what the Home Secretary is doing. May I ask her for clarification? Five British nationals had their nationality taken away under the previous Government, and 16 had their nationality taken away under the current Government between 2010 and 2012. What has happened to those people? Have we been able to return them to their countries of origin? If not, is that why the Government are pushing forward with the new clause—so that we can do that in future?

[Mrs May]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. In some cases we are able to return people, and we do a lot of work with other countries, through our agreements on deportation with assurances, to ensure that we can deport people elsewhere. Of course, there was a particular case in which we could not take such action against an individual because it would have rendered them stateless, notwithstanding the fact that they were in a position to apply for citizenship of another state.

[Frank Dobson]

It may be a fault in me that I did not understand the Home Secretary’s reply to my question earlier. Will she confirm that the child of someone who had acquired British citizenship would be subject to the law that she envisages?

[Mrs May]

I thought that I had provided some clarity in the answer that I gave the right hon. Gentleman earlier. The law will be limited to naturalised citizens and will not apply to anybody who has British citizenship by any other means. The action would be taken against the naturalised British citizen, not their child.

[Mr Hanson]

If the parent and sole carer of a child under 18 was deprived of citizenship while outside the country, what would happen to the child? The consequences need to be thought through.

[Mrs May]

I recognise that there are consequences, and they have been considered. The circumstances that the right hon. Gentleman mentions are if the child was in the United Kingdom and their parent was elsewhere conducting activity that was seriously prejudicial to the United Kingdom. That would be considered on a case by case basis—there would not be a tick-box, mechanistic approach. All circumstances would be looked at in considering whether it was appropriate to apply the new power to an individual. There are safeguards within the proposal, such as the seriously prejudicial nature of the activity that an individual must have undertaken.

I had not quite finished my response to the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) when I allowed the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) to intervene. I repeat the response that I gave earlier to the former: the law will apply only to those who are naturalised, not those who are British by birth or those who acquired citizenship under other provisions of the 1981 Act, such as those that provide for children to acquire British citizenship. I hope that I have perhaps made that clearer to the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras.

[Frank Dobson]

If that is the case, what powers did the Home Secretary use to take citizenship away from my constituent Mahdi Hashi, who was then kidnapped by the Americans in Somalia and is now in court in New York?

[Mrs May]

I will not discuss an individual case, but if the right hon. Gentleman wishes to write to me about it, I will respond to him. I have set out the powers that I already have to deprive citizenship, which are twofold. The first circumstance is when somebody has acquired citizenship through deception or fraud, and the second is when somebody has acted in a manner that is seriously prejudicial to our national interest and they would not be rendered stateless as a result of the deprivation of their British citizenship.

[Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con)]

Is this not just about getting rid of very bad people and preventing them from coming back to our country? Is that not the nub of what we are discussing?

[Mrs May]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for putting the matter so succinctly and sensibly. This is about dealing with people whose behaviour is seriously prejudicial to the United Kingdom, and I would have thought that we all wanted to ensure that the Government had the appropriate powers to do that.

[Dr Huppert]

The Home Secretary is doing sterling work in taking interventions on new clause 18. May I thank her for coming to talk to Liberal Democrat colleagues about it? I understand what she is trying to achieve with it, but I still have a number of concerns. She places great reliance on the point that the people affected will be able to get another citizenship. Does she think it is likely that somebody who is in this country and has been deprived of citizenship will find it easy to go to another country and say, “Here is my background. Britain has just stripped me of citizenship. Could I have yours, please?” Or will we just find those people stuck in this country and unable to leave?

[Mrs May]

As I made absolutely clear, if somebody was in a position to acquire other citizenship, I would expect them to attempt to do so. As I indicated earlier, there may be circumstances in which somebody remains stateless, in which case our international obligations to those who are stateless would kick in, and we would abide by them.

[John Hemming (Birmingham, Yardley) (LD)]

I have spent some time looking at cases in which people have been deprived of citizenship, many of whom were abroad. Does the Home Secretary agree that it is reasonable for the judicial review clock to start ticking at the point when the person affected becomes aware that such a decision has been taken rather at the time when it is taken? There is a three-month limit on applying for judicial review of the decision, and to allow proper consideration that clock should start ticking when the person in question becomes aware of it.

[Mrs May]

I will look at my hon. Friend’s point. Obviously there is a process whereby somebody is informed of a decision once it has been taken. I will check the timetable for judicial review and come back to him on it.

[Mark Pritchard]

The Home Secretary will know that I, along with many other Members across the House, have championed refugees being allowed to come to the UK in some numbers. As she will know, in the case of Syria, there is a national security issue relating to British nationals with either single or dual citizenship returning to this country and possibly causing problems here. How quickly does she believe the new law will be in place, and does she believe it should apply to nationals and dual nationals coming back to the UK from Syria?

[Mrs May]

My hon. Friend raises the important issue of people who may have trained and fought in Syria potentially coming back here radicalised and with the desire to do us harm. I am sure that is a matter of concern throughout the House. As I have indicated, I believe the power in question would be exercised in a limited number of cases, but it is important that the Government have it. As I have said, they had it until about 10 years ago, then the law was changed to reduce their ability to take action against those acting in a way that comes under the definition of “seriously prejudicial” to us. It is important that we have such a power, but I am not in a position to say to my hon. Friend that I will suddenly use it in a number of circumstances. The power will be used on a case-by-case basis, but, as I have indicated, I expect that it will be used in a very limited number of circumstances.

I will conclude my remarks on new clause 18 by stating again that it is consistent with our obligations under international law and, as I have said, it was a power we had for most of the past century. It is a carefully constructed measure designed to give effect to our declaration under the UN convention on the reduction of statelessness, but it goes no further. My officials, together with those from other relevant Departments and in consultation with our in-House legal advisers, conduct the research and provide a recommendation on each case, but these are decisions that I—or, on the rare occasions I am not available, another Secretary of State—will review and sign off personally. The persons subject to provisions in the new clause will continue to be afforded an independent right of appeal, retaining an avenue of judicial redress. This is not about arbitrarily depriving people of their citizenship; it is a targeted policy that will be used sparingly against very dangerous individuals who have brought such action upon themselves through terrorist-related acts. I urge the House to conclude that new clause 18 is a proportionate and necessary measure.

New clause 13 stands in the name of the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), and I will wait to hear what he says and respond to the issues he raises. New clause 15 has been tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab), and I will make a few comments about it. I respect the fact that he will speak about his own new clause, so at this point I will not go into all the detail but will simply set out a few points.

I think we are all agreed across the House—this is one of the things the Bill tries to do—that we want to enhance the ability of our country to deport foreign criminals from the United Kingdom where it is appropriate to do so. The Government have taken a simple position on article 8 of the European convention on human rights, which is that our judiciary have not been interpreting it in the way we believe it should be interpreted, because it is a qualified right in the European convention itself. Having changed the immigration rules, and that not having had the effect we desired, we are now putting it into primary legislation and ensuring that we clarify absolutely what the qualified interpretation of article 8 should be in relation to the Government’s ability to remove people from the United Kingdom. I believe that is an important change that the public, as well as Members of the House, would wish us to put through. It is right that the Government are taking this opportunity to include that measure in the Bill. We all have a shared desire to ensure that we enhance our ability to deport foreign criminals.

My hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton has tabled a new clause that would amend the Bill, but I think that some aspects of it would not strengthen our ability to deport foreign criminals, but could actually weaken it. Other aspects of the language he uses might indeed strengthen our proposals.

[Dr Huppert]

I thank the Home Secretary for giving way as there are many things to discuss in this group of amendments. Has she received any formal advice from the Attorney-General or her departmental lawyers that the new clause would be compatible with the European convention on human rights?

[Mrs May]

The advice I have received is that it is incompatible with the European convention on human rights. I am concerned with other aspects of the new clause because I believe that in a number of areas it weakens the Government’s proposals in relation to article 8. I am also concerned about the practical application of the new clause, because in reality I think we would effectively hinder our ability to deport people for a period of time because there would be considerable legal wrangling about the issue.

12:45

Let me expand on a few of those points. I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton, we all want to ensure that we make the Bill as strong as possible when dealing with the deportation of foreign criminals. The Bill makes it clear that the deportation of a foreign criminal is in the public interest, even for those with prison sentences of less than 12 months if that offending is persistent or causes serious harm. New clause 15 relates only to automatic deportation, and therefore to offenders who are sentenced to 12 months of more. It would be for the courts to decide on the proportionality of deporting persistent offenders or those whose offences cause serious harm but who are sentenced to less than 12 months, and no guidance from Parliament is provided on the tests that should apply. The new clause weakens the Bill in relation to those offenders, and the Government’s proposal has a stronger ability to deal with that.

The new clause also distinguishes between those sentenced to between one and four years’ imprisonment and those sentenced to more than four years. It provides that those sentenced to more than four years should be deported unless there are compelling circumstances, and that those circumstances must be over and above the unduly harsh consequences of deportation on the criminal’s family.

There is an issue about the sort of wording used. I think the Bill goes further than the new clause. The new clause allows “manifest and overwhelming harm” to a child to override deportation, even for the most serious criminals, but the test of whether there would be manifest and overwhelming harm to a child is unclear. We can argue about whether that is a weaker test than requiring “very compelling circumstances”, but I think such issues raise concerns about my hon. Friend’s new clause.

[Mr Hanson]

Will the Home Secretary help the Opposition by clarifying the Government’s position? If the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) presses his new clause to a vote, will the Government vote for it, against it, or abstain?

[Mrs May]

I am making a few comments about the new clause. I would like to hear my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton speak about it and hear whether he intends to press it to a vote.

I think that where children are involved the new clause weakens the Bill, and as I have said, there are concerns about how the measure would operate and its practical implications. I think it would lead to circumstances in which—potentially for a significant period of time—we would not be able to deport people who otherwise we would be able to deport.

[Sarah Teather]

Given the strong line the Home Secretary has taken on trafficking, how does she feel about the exclusion of article 4 of the European convention on human rights from the new clause?

[Mrs May]

I have indeed taken a strong line on trafficking, but the exclusion of certain other articles of the convention in the new clause is one of the aspects that makes it incompatible with that convention and raises the issue of how it would operate. I have already indicated that I think the new clause is incompatible with the European convention, and I am raising some of the other practical issues that I think would be its impact. I think we will find it harder to deport people because of some aspects of the new clause, and that more cases will go to the European Court as that would become the first decision maker in a number of cases. There would be considerable litigation in the domestic courts if we found ourselves seeking to remove someone contrary to a rule 39 indication. Those are practical issues about whether we can deport individuals.

I recognise the concern of my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton, and others, about our ability to deport foreign criminals, and in relation to the European convention on human rights. I have said on many occasions that it is necessary for the Government to determine and sort out our relationship with the European Court of Human Rights and the European convention on human rights, and as far as I am concerned, nothing should be off the table in doing that. Today we are considering a Bill that will deal with the deportation of foreign criminals.

[Yasmin Qureshi]

Again, will the Secretary of State’s party support new clause 11, tabled by the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab)?

[Mrs May]

I am sorry, but I answered that question earlier. I said that I will respond to the comments that my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton makes, and see whether he moves the new clause. I will make the Government’s position clear to the House. [Interruption.] I am sure the hon. Lady believes that debate in the House is important. I am therefore sure she agrees that listening to hon. Members is also important.

As I have said, the Bill puts in place stronger practical arrangements that will enable us to deport more foreign criminals, which all hon. Members want.

[Dr Huppert]

It looks like the Home Secretary is nearing a conclusion, but may I press her on amendment 74, which I have tabled, and which would write into law the Government’s achievement of ending child detention for immigration purposes? The Immigration Minister has said that he would come back to that. Will the Home Secretary update the House on progress? Will the Government accept my amendment or come up with a better drafted version?

[Mrs May]

The Government accept the principle of my hon. Friend’s point. We propose to reinforce the commitment to end the detention of children for immigration purposes by putting key elements of the family returns process into primary legislation. That will involve providing a statutory prohibition on the detention of children within immigration removals centres, subject to the exceptions agreed in 2010, which continue to be Government policy; providing families with children a minimum of a 28-day reflection period following the exhaustion of appeal rights against a removal before their enforced removal; placing a statutory duty on the Secretary of State to appoint an independent family returns panel to advise on the best interests of the child in every case in which enforced return is proposed; and providing a separate legal basis for pre-departure accommodation independent of other immigration detention facilities. Our intention is to introduce those amendments in Committee in the House of Lords. I hope that covers my hon. Friend’s concerns on ending child detention for immigration purposes.

[Simon Danczuk]

The right hon. Lady will be familiar with the two Rochdale grooming cases. The country of origin of some of the perpetrators of those horrific crimes is not the UK. Will the Bill make things easier? Will she assure me and the people of Rochdale that, under the Bill, those who committed those crimes can be sent back to their country of origin?

[Mrs May]

I cannot give the hon. Gentleman a guarantee on any specific case, but the Bill will make it easier for us to deport foreign criminals. It clarifies the interpretation of article 8 in a way that will make it easier for us to deport foreign criminals. It ensures that foreign criminals can be deported first, unless there are particular circumstances in the country to which they are going, and appeal against their deportation afterwards. However, on people who have been convicted of a crime and who are in our prison estate, my right hon. Friend the Justice Secretary is working hard with Home Office immigration enforcement people to ensure that we can remove more foreign criminals to their country of origin in a number of ways, such as through prison transfer agreements.

The House shares the concern that we should be able to deport more foreign criminals. The Bill strengthens our ability to do that. I would not wish to see it weakened in any way. As I have said, I have concerns with some aspects of new clause 15, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton, because it could weaken our ability to deport more foreign criminals. However, I recognise that he has sought to strengthen the language in the Bill. The public want an immigration Bill that strengthens our ability to deport foreign criminals to get through Parliament. That is a shared aim. I believe that that is what the Bill, as drafted, does.

[Mr Hanson]

The Home Secretary spoke for just over an hour and a half, but at the end of her contribution I am still not clear on key aspects of the Government’s proposals. I am not clear whether the Government as a whole have a united position on them. Do the Liberal Democrat members of the Government have a different view? The interesting proposals in new clause 15, tabled by the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab), are yet to be considered the Government in a full and frank way.

I want to mention measures on which I agree with the Government, as the Bill does contain measures that the official Opposition support. On new clause 11, the Home Secretary has our full support for her proposals to tackle sham marriages. Sham marriage is a serious problem. The Home Office estimates that 4,000 to 10,000 applications to stay in the UK each year are based on sham marriage or sham civil partnership—the Minister for Crime Prevention and I discussed this extensively in Committee. That is a significant number of cases and action is needed.

New clause 11 deals with the situation in Northern Ireland and Scotland, which the Opposition raised in Committee, and contains measures we support. We can support the measures on same-sex marriage, on which we sought clarification in Committee. New clause 11 is welcome, and the Opposition support it.

As I have mentioned, we have four and a half hours for the debate. The Home Secretary took one third of that time for her opening contribution. She explained the issues, and I look forward in due course to listening to hon. Members’ concerns. I will try to take less time than her, but I have some things to say.

I reach out a hand of friendship on new clause 12. The Opposition will not oppose it today. It is reasonable to try to recoup charges from individuals who use our services, but we might disagree with the Government, because we believe we need to improve those services. As the Home Secretary has recognised, we need to ensure that the charges do not deter the brightest and best, and those with skills, from coming to work here to create jobs and growth in our economy. We need to ensure that they do not deter students. I am afraid that Government policies currently deter students from coming to the UK. We need to ensure that we do not turn away people who will contribute strongly to our community. The tourism economy is particularly important. We need to ensure that the level of charges, which we will discuss shortly, does not damage investment in our economy through tourism.

The Opposition have three concerns. The Home Secretary devoted around 45 minutes to new clause 18. I accept and understand that it deals with a serious problem. We are dealing with people who are undertaking activities—terrorism—that are of great concern to the state. Having been a Home Office Minister in the previous Government dealing with terrorism and counter-terrorism activity, I understand the need to examine those matters. I should tell the Home Secretary clearly that it is not acceptable, at least as far as the Opposition are concerned, to bring a major new clause to deal with that to the House 24 hours before the debate on Report and Third Reading. We have only four and a half hours to debate important issues, including European accession—the Opposition and the Government have different views on that, but it is valid to discuss them—new clause 15 and the concerns of the hon. Member for Esher and Walton. I tell the Home Secretary that that is not the way to discuss sensitive issues such as taking steps to deprive individuals of their citizenship.

I have listened to what the Home Secretary has said on a number of measures. My right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) has concerns. Others, including the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Mike Thornton) and, dare I say it, the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) have raised pertinent issues of concern. However, we have less than three hours to reach conclusions on these major measures.

[Mr Brazier]

The right hon. Gentleman makes a legitimate point about time. Putting the detail aside, in the kinds of cases raised by the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), the Chair of the Select Committee, where people abroad are believed to be—in some cases they are found to be—in arms in opposition to British interest, should we or should we not make it easier to have their citizenship removed and their ability to return to the UK ended?

13:00

[Mr Hanson]

As a Minister in the previous Government who dealt with terrorist activity and looked at terrorist plots and the information to which the Home Secretary is now privileged, I know there are circumstances where the Government need to address serious issues. The question I put to the hon. Gentleman and the Home Secretary is this: new clause 18 was tabled 24 hours ago and there has been no consultation—[Interruption.] The Minister for Immigration says that it was tabled on Tuesday, but it was published yesterday morning; the first sight of it was then. A range of outside groups would like to examine the consequences of the proposed legislation, yet today the House of Commons is expected to approve it. The Opposition want to reserve judgment on some of the details that have been mentioned. We want to look at the measures, take advanced legal advice and consult outside bodies, which the Government should be doing, so we can consider the implications.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

Is what my right hon. Friend saying on new clause 18 not indicative of the whole approach to the Bill? It has not been adequately debated anywhere. Most of it will be not be debated today and it will pass through this House unexamined. The Bill will have appalling consequences for an awful lot of things in society, not just the new clause he is discussing now.

[Mr Hanson]

I have to say to my hon. Friend, with the greatest of reverence for his long service in Parliament, that the Minister for Immigration and I spent far too long in Committee on this matter through most of October and November, and we are doing so again today. There has been discussion and division on some of the measures in the Bill.

New clause 18 was published yesterday morning. The Immigration Law Practitioners Association sent a brief at 4 am today. That was the first opportunity it had to put down its views on this matter:

“The amendment on the order paper on 29 January 2014 and on that date we first had sight of the Government’s European Convention on Human Rights Memorandum pertaining to the clause. We do not attempt to address herein the complex questions of the present day effects of the UK’s declaration”,

and in the light of that it will have to look at the matter when it comes to another place. The ILPA may or may not have valid points, but we are 24 hours from passing a serious piece of legislation. We had a long period in Committee. The issues relating to the al-Jedda judgment of summer to autumn 2013, which the Home Secretary mentioned, have led to her introducing these measures. We will have to look at them in detail. This is not a good way to place such an important issue, which has the potential to impact on people’s liberty and citizenship.

[Dr Huppert]

The right hon. Gentleman is right that we discussed some of this at great length in Committee. I share his view that there should be more pre-legislative scrutiny. This Government have done more than previous Governments, but there is much more to do. I also share his concern about amendments and new clauses being tabled only two days ahead of time. Does that mean that he and his party will ensure that Opposition day motions are never tabled just a day before debates? That would make it easier for all of us to read them.

[Mr Hanson]

The hon. Gentleman politicises a point I am trying to make about process. He knows how Opposition motions are drawn up and he knows that they do not have the same impact as legislation. The proposed legislation will have the effect of depriving citizenship. If an Opposition motion is voted on and defeated one thing will happen: there will be political noise about an issue. This is about the deprivation of someone’s citizenship. We may, ultimately, make the judgment to support the Government, but this is an important point about process that I think we need to make.

[Mr Bone]

I am grateful to the shadow Minister for giving way. I agree entirely with his comments and it is unusual for the Home Secretary to be filibustering her own Bill. Where does he think the Government could have learned these tricks? Could it have been from the Blair Government?

[Mr Hanson]

I was honoured to serve for 12 years in the Blair Government and I do not think we filibustered that much.

The Home Secretary addressed some issues relating to new clause 18, but they still need to be examined in detail. For example, what definition does she have of “seriously prejudicial”? Who applies that definition? What type of person does she expect to lose citizenship? How many individuals does she expect to be impacted by this?

So late in the day was the new clause tabled that we have had to table two manuscript amendments this morning, in the name of my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) and me, that include the potential for discussion on judicial oversight. The Home Secretary touched on her role and responsibilities relating to judicial oversight, and we need further clarity on that. In the winding-up speech, whether delivered by the Home Secretary or the Minister of State, I would welcome a view on our amendments. Judicial oversight would give us some comfort on whether this is an appropriate measure to take, given the seriousness of removing someone’s citizenship.

[Rehman Chishti]

The shadow Minister raises concerns about the short notice given on the content of today’s debate. He also makes clear his expertise, having served in this area in the previous Government. Under the previous Government, five British nationals were stripped of their nationality. Will he clarify what happened to them? Were they sent back to their country of origin or not? Does he accept that there was a defect in the existing legislation and that we need to move forward with the new proposed legislation?

[Mr Hanson]

First, let me say that at the time the hon. Gentleman supported the Government as a member of the Labour party. In fact, he supported the Government so much he stood for election in 2005.

[Rehman Chishti]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Yes, the shadow Minister is absolutely right that in 2005 I was a member of the Labour party. Soon after that I left the Labour party because, like everyone else, I was fed up with it.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)]

That is so clearly not a point of order. In three years in Parliament the hon. Gentleman clearly has not got the hang of it yet, but he has got his point on the record. May we please now return to the very important issues in the Bill?

[Mr Hanson]

It was just a point of information that deserves wider knowledge.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I note the custom in the House to give notice before making personal remarks involving another Member. Does that include this case?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

With respect, the hon. Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) has, having heard the remark, replied to it. I think we have a score draw there, so shall we continue? And that’s not a point of order, either.

[Mr Hanson]

I give way to the hon. Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon).

[Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)]

In passing, may I say that I think my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) has exactly got the hang of it?

The Opposition spokesman mentioned the need to have proper judicial oversight, and his manuscript amendment attempts to provide for it. I have some sympathy with the amendment, although probably not enough to vote for it. Given what he is saying now, however, why did the Labour Government, of which he was a member, bend over backwards when passing asylum and immigration legislation and do their absolute damnedest to avoid judicial oversight?

[Mr Hanson]

Lots of things are learned by experience, but this is an extremely serious issue. If the hon. Gentleman sees merit in our manuscript amendments (a) and (b), he should, between now and 4 o’clock, discuss that with those on his Front Bench, because I do not want to divide the House on such serious issues concerning the rights of individuals and the protection of people in the UK. I just think there is an issue here: this matter was brought to our attention late, and we want to ensure judicial oversight. I hope we can deal properly with the issue in another place, with full support and after full consultation. Let us discuss this matter genuinely.

[Mark Pritchard]

The shadow Minister is entitled to ask legitimate questions about the Bill, but does he agree with the principle of new clause 18, without necessarily knowing all the details at this stage?

[Mr Hanson]

The principle is the deprivation of the citizenship of individuals who are naturalised, and that might be a positive thing, but we would need to consider it in detail. We have only had 24 hours. I want to consider the legal implications, as well as the issues raised by my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras. We need to look at judicial oversight and when and how notice should be given. We also need to look at what rights individuals have to appeal and what happens if someone is in another state when the decision is taken. What should be the responsibility and response of that other state? What should happen to the family? These are important issues which we need to cogitate and reflect on, and to return to in another place.

[John Hemming]

I have looked at cases of people who have had their citizenship withdrawn while they have been out of the country, and there is a big issue about people becoming aware of a decision to remove their citizenship and having an opportunity to challenge it. Does the shadow Minister accept that although his objective is an improved procedural protection, his proposal runs the risk, in certain circumstances, of reducing it, because by the time someone finds out about a decision, the matter will have already gone to court, on an ex parte basis, and a decision will already have been taken? Perhaps it would be better left to judicial review, with the person having an opportunity to challenge a decision when they become aware of it.

[Mr Hanson]

My objective is the same, I think, as the Home Secretary’s, which is to protect the British people from potential terrorist activity at home and abroad. That is a key joint objective.

New clause 18 raises complex issues on which a range of individuals will have a view, but on which there has been no consultation outside the House. Let us look at the manuscript amendments and consider whether we could tighten up the process so that we are all content, and we will reserve judgment until we reach another place, at which point I hope we can reach a conclusion that meets our objectives.

[Mrs May]

I recognise the right hon. Gentleman’s point about the time to consider the new clause, and I am happy for the Government to have discussions with him to set out in more detail how it would operate. On that basis, I hope he will consider not moving his manuscript amendments, although obviously, following those discussions, the Opposition could come back to them in another place, if they felt it necessary.

[Mr Hanson]

I am grateful to the Home Secretary for her accommodation, and obviously we will reflect on her comments. This is an important issue, which is why we tabled the manuscript amendment. It is unusual for such amendments to be taken, so—I should have done this before—I would like to thank Mr Speaker for accepting it at this late stage. We tabled it so late simply because the new clause was also tabled late.

13:15

I want to address two more issues, and then allow other Members to speak. Our new clause 13 and amendment 1 relate to an important matter, raised with me by many of my hon. Friends, about tribunal appeals. Clause 11 will remove immigration tribunal appeals from the armoury of individuals who wish to stay in the UK, and replace them with administrative review, which, in my view, is already part of the process. This is important because, while the tribunals continue to uphold decisions, in many cases they overturn decisions made by the Home Office. We have discussed this matter in Committee and elsewhere. We estimate that 50% are overturned; the Government have a lower estimate, but we agree that decisions are being overturned at tribunal. If tribunals are abolished, such decisions could not be overturned at tribunal.

Our new clause 13 seeks to ensure that before

“the Secretary of State makes an order under section 65 (commencement) to bring into force section 11 (Right of appeal to First-tier Tribunal) he must…undertake an impact assessment of…the number of appeals effected by the provisions in section 11…and…the costs attributable to appeals to First-tier Tribunals; and…lay a copy of…that…assessment before Parliament.”

In the light of the Government’s own assessments, we think that the cost of people going to judicial review, rather than tribunal, might be about £10 million year, and that Her Majesty’s Treasury will lose about £4.2 million a year because tribunal costs will not be met. There are cost implications, never mind the issue of basic fairness, which is that the sort of people currently having their appeals upheld at tribunal will not have that opportunity in the future.

[Sarah Teather]

Has the shadow Minister noticed an anomaly that concerns me and on which I hope the Home Secretary can give some clarification? It appears that if someone applies for variation in leave, that leave is protected if their administrative review is pending, but not if they appeal.

[Mr Hanson]

That is another issue. Our amendment 1 would remove clause 11 from the Bill and allow the Government to reflect on the concerns raised by the hon. Lady—she speaks from the Government Benches, but I appreciate that she has an independent frame of mind—and on those expressed outside, in evidence to the Committee, and by my right hon. and hon. Friends about the impact of abolishing tribunals on the sort of people currently having their appeals upheld. Individuals are having their appeals upheld at tribunal, but under clause 11 such appeals will not be possible. Our proposal is either, in amendment 1, to remove clause 11 or, if the Home Secretary cannot accept amendment 1, in new clause 13, to provide for an assessment beforehand so that we can consider this matter in detail.

Madam Deputy Speaker, you will be pleased to hear that I am coming to my final point, although I have only spoken for half an hour—considerably less time than the Home Secretary took. The hon. Member for Esher and Walton has a range of support for his new clause 15, and in due course I will want to hear again what he has to say about it. Like my right hon. and hon. Friends, I want to see foreign criminals deported. That is right and proper. I was pleased, as well as doing counter-terrorism, to serve under my right hon. Friend the Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) in the Ministry of Justice. He went to Vietnam to negotiate a deal to deport terrorists and prisoners there, and I went to Nigeria to do the same. We also negotiated a deal with the EU for it to accept foreign criminals, which the Government are now implementing and from which they are reaping the benefits. We have an interest in ensuring that foreign nationals living in this country who commit crimes and go to prison serve a sentence and then are ultimately returned to their home state.

[Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)]

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that there is a fundamental difference between deporting foreign criminals and deporting suspects?

[Mr Hanson]

There is, and we can explore that in due course, but I want to focus on the new clause tabled by the hon. Member for Esher and Walton, as the principle of removal is a reasonable one. Let us look at some of the tests that the Home Secretary talked about. I am not one to do this very often, but let me give credit to the Home Secretary: she is trying to make progress on a couple of issues in relation to existing legislation to try to improve the process of deportation. We have given our support to do that, but that process has not yet been developed, examined or evaluated. There is scope for us to look at whether what the Home Secretary has proposed is right and proper and is put into effect.

The hon. Member for Esher and Walton has a long history inside and outside this House of dealing with these matters, but there are still some concerns on the Opposition Benches about the measures that he is proposing, not because we do not want to deport foreign criminals, but because we want to do it in a way that maintains our integrity in relation to the convention on human rights and our integrity with our European and world colleagues. I say that because in relation to a similar amendment that he tabled to the Crime and Courts Act 2013, I have seen a note that perhaps I should not have seen—

[Mr Bone]

Tell us!

[Mr Hanson]

I am going to. It is from the Home Secretary to the right hon. Member for Witney (Mr Cameron), who happens to be the Prime Minister. In the note, on the hon. Member for Esher and Walton’s amendment to the Crime and Courts Bill, the Home Secretary said that the amendment

“would be incompatible with the UK’s obligations under the ECHR… Nevertheless if this amendment passes both Houses of Parliament and becomes law the Secretary of State will be required to act in accordance with it and make deportation orders notwithstanding other ECHR obligations. This would significantly undermine our ability to deport foreign criminals.”

There are real issues that need to be explored. The Bill restricts appeals against deportation that use the right to a family life in article 8. We have supported the Government’s efforts to do that. There are foreign criminals who have committed serious crimes whom we cannot deport and who have used article 8 inappropriately, but the new proposals have not yet been tested in the courts. We support the Government’s view that the proposals in the Bill should be implemented and that gives us grounds to have severe scepticism about supporting the hon. Gentleman’s proposals. What I am not clear on is whether the Home Secretary shares that scepticism, whether she intends to allow the new clause to go forward, or whether she intends to block, support or abstain on it. I would welcome clarification by the time the hon. Gentleman has made his points.

[Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)]

The right hon. Gentleman, whose judgment on these issues I value acutely, referred to leaked Government correspondence. What is his position on whether my hon. Friend’s proposals would contravene our responsibilities under the ECHR?

[Mr Hanson]

I have served with the hon. Gentleman on a number of Committees. We have had useful and positive cross-party discussions. I say to him honestly that we have taken legal advice and we believe that the proposal would put us in contravention of ECHR responsibilities. The Home Secretary, I think, has had the same advice and the Home Secretary, I think, shares our view. The question for the Home Secretary is whether she wishes to exercise her judgement today or at a later date.

[Mr Brazier]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving way a second time. We have had a valedictory speech from Lord Judge, the previous Lord Chief Justice, in which he stated very clearly that it is time for it to be made clear which is the supreme court of this country: our Supreme Court or the court in Strasbourg. Does he have a view on that?

[Mr Hanson]

I am dealing with the practicalities of the issue before us today. [Interruption.] If the hon. Gentleman wants an answer, I will say that the ECHR is a valuable tool and we should uphold our obligations within it.

Provisions in new clause 15, according to our legal advice—I think it is shared by the legal advice that the Home Secretary has received—could cause more difficulties and breach our ECHR responsibilities. Those issues are to be tested, but we are left saying that if this is pushed to a vote we would potentially be looking at not supporting the hon. Member for Esher and Walton, depending on what he says. We will see in due course.

[Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)]

Move on, then.

[Mr Hanson]

I will do so, but I say to the right hon. Gentleman, with whom I have served on Committees and whom I greatly respect, that I have had just over half an hour. The Home Secretary, for a range of reasons, talked for one and a half hours. I am trying responsibly to set out the view of the official Opposition so that Members can form a judgment.

[Dr Huppert]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Hanson]

I am genuinely trying to wind up, but I will give way to the hon. Gentleman.

[Dr Huppert]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. Before he finishes, will he comment on my amendment 74 about writing into law the end of child detention? Does he share my pleasure that this will now happen and that it will stop any future Government doing what the last Government did and detaining over 7,000 children within five years, including for 190 days? Is he pleased about that change?

[Mr Hanson]

I do not share the hon. Gentleman’s judgment on most issues, but that could be looked at. My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon North (Mr Reed) attended discussions yesterday on this matter and we will look at those matters in detail.

We are not the Government today; we are the official Opposition, on behalf of whom I say that we have severe concerns about new clause 15 and about the process and potential implications of new clause 18, but we will reserve judgment on that. The issue of the removal of tribunals is one that we need to address and to delete from the Bill. We need to look at some of the other issues before we give the Home Secretary unqualified support.

After many weeks of discussion, we have an Immigration Bill on which the Government appear to me, as a simple Front Bencher, to be in chaos on some of the key issues on which they will be judged. We must judge the Home Secretary on what she says, but there are real issues that need to be resolved. I would welcome hearing from the hon. Member for Esher and Walton why he believes that his proposal will not breach the ECHR on these matters. With that, I conclude to ensure that hon. Members have an opportunity to contribute.

[Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con)]

I wish to speak to new clause 15 and amendment No 62 in my name and that of 105 other hon. Members from across three parties in this House. Subject to the will of the Chair, of course, I intend to press them to a vote to test the opinion of the House.

I welcome the engagement and consultation with officials and Ministers over what has been a two-year period, and with Opposition Members. I think what the shadow Minister said was code that they are going to abstain and I welcome that as well.

[Mr Hanson]

My gut instinct at the moment is not to support the hon. Gentleman by actually voting against him. I want to hear what he has to say and I also want to hear from the Home Secretary on whether there are further measures that we could jointly take to tackle the curse of foreign criminals not being deported in an appropriate way that meets our ECHR obligations.

[Mr Raab]

I thank the shadow Minister for his intervention, which was a very elegant way of sitting on the fence again.

The problem with which the new clause and amendments would deal results from the judicial expansion of the right to family life under article 8 of the European convention, which allows serious foreign criminals to evade deportation. It is, I think, common ground that the Strasbourg Court has steadily eroded United Kingdom deportation powers over the past few decades, but the tightest fetters have come from the UK courts as a result— rightly or wrongly—of the Human Rights Act 1998.

13:30

Let me move away from some of the technicalities for a while, and stress that the impact on ordinary people is stark. Let us not lose sight of whom we are talking about. My campaign began in my constituency when Bishal Gurung, a waiter in Esher, was killed in a very vicious attack, and his body was dumped in the River Thames. The perpetrator, Rocky Gurung—no relation—was convicted of manslaughter. He would have been sent back to Nepal, but he scuppered the deportation process by claiming his right to family life, although—remember that this was a homicide conviction—he was a single adult with no dependants. One can imagine how Bishal’s family felt about that.

This was not an isolated case. According to the reply to a freedom of information request that I submitted, the number of successful article 8 challenges to deportations by foreign criminals ranges from 200 to 400 a year, and the latest snapshot indicates that they constitute 89% of all successful human rights challenges to deportation orders. It is necessary to study the case law of the Immigration and Asylum Tribunal to appreciate the extent to which such cases warp the moral balance of British justice, endanger the public, and, for many people outside this place, make “human rights” dirty words. That is something that I deeply regret.

Some argue—and I want to address their argument head on—that the rights of the partners and children of convicted serious criminals must be given due weight, but the crucial point is that, in reality, the application of article 8 is being expanded to protect the rights of the criminals, not those of their families. Far from safeguarding the vulnerable, it can expose them to undue pressure, if not worse, from dangerous offenders. Let me give just two examples.

In one case, a man who had been jailed for raping his partner twice relied, successfully, on his relationship and daughter with the same woman to avoid deportation. It worries me that female victims may be coerced into being reunited with violent criminals who see them as a legal lifeline enabling them to stay in this country. In another case, a drug dealer who had been convicted of beating his girlfriend, and who had been jailed twice for other brutal, barbaric attacks, successfully cited his young daughter as a ground for evading deportation, although he had never paid maintenance and had scarcely seen his daughter until lawyers explained that that might help his case, and although the mother did not want her daughter to visit him in prison. Far from protecting children, article 8 risks making them pawns, subject to coercion or worse, in criminals’ desperate struggle to resist deportation and stay in Britain.

Let us be clear about what the law, rightly or wrongly, is achieving. In 2012 the Home Secretary rightly sought to address the problem, by changing the immigration rules, but that was only a rule change, and predictably, because of the way in which sections 3 and 4 of the Human Rights Act work, it was not upheld by the courts. I say “predictably” because I think that I have explained the position in the House before; I have certainly done so publicly, and with Ministers, following consultation.

In the Izuazu case, Mr Justice Blake pointedly stated:

“'Whilst it is open to Parliament to change the law by primary legislation unless and until it does so these decisions are binding...and will be followed”.

So we have tried once and that did not work; and it was clear that it would not work because of the way in which the Human Rights Act operates. I am not necessarily criticising the Act; I am merely making a point of fact.

Part 2 of the Bill seeks to reintroduce what is effectively the same balancing exercise as that in the immigration rules in order to give the factors in favour of deportation statutory force. Of course that is a step in the right direction, but the UK courts are required only to “have regard” to the factors that are listed, and that leaves the courts wide discretion. Sections 3 and 4 of the Human Rights Act clearly require such discretion to be exercised in a way that complies with existing human rights case law in this country. In short, there is a real risk that nothing would change.

Let me deal briefly with the Home Secretary’s suggestion that my new clause would risk our being involved in a huge amount of litigation. There is always a risk of litigation when the law is changed, but because the new clause is much shorter, clearer and more succinct than the wide, sophisticated, complex balancing exercise in the Bill, it is much less likely to attract the kind of satellite litigation to which the Home Secretary alluded. I therefore think that the Bill as it stands would make the position worse than it would be if my new clause were accepted.

[Michael Ellis]

I admire my hon. Friend and respect his position, but my fundamental concern about his new clause is that it is being described by lawyers—from both the Labour party and the Government, it seems—as a measure that is incompatible with the legislation, will not work, and will actually slow the process down. I want us to deport as many foreign criminals as possible, but will not the new clause make that more difficult?

[Mr Raab]

I know that my hon. Friend takes a close interest in these matters, and I shall try to address his point very squarely. I urge him to intervene again if he feels that I have not done so satisfactorily, in which case I shall spell out my argument more clearly.

My new clause differs from the clauses in part 2 in that it is mandatory. Serious offenders cannot pull out and wield article 8 as a joker to trump deportation. Unless there is a tangible threat to life or limb, those convicted killers, rapists, drug dealers and other serious criminals should be sent home: they should not remain on the streets of Britain.

I spent a long time crafting and consulting on my new clause. It allows a very narrow exception to the wider automaticity of deportation when that is in the overwhelming humanitarian interests of the children involved, but the discretion is to be exercised by the Home Secretary rather than the courts. The new clause uses a Home Office mechanism, or model, to protect that discretion from human rights challenges by expressly stipulating that the only challenge can be by way of judicial review.

[Mark Pritchard]

As my hon. Friend knows, I am one of the co-signatories of the new clause. However, the Home Secretary legitimately raised the possibility of unintended consequences should the new clause remove the discretion and flexibility that currently exists in relation to the discretion to deport someone who has been in prison for less than 12 months.

[Mr Raab]

My hon. Friend has made a perfectly reasonable point, but the new clause is tailored to serious criminals, which is all the more reason for it to be considered reasonable and proportionate. Of course, if the Government wish to insert a provision covering persistent petty offenders—which would be far more likely to attract challenges under article 8, because in the case of less serious offences deportation is more likely to be deemed disproportionate—they will be able to do so. However—it is odd to be attacked for not being tough enough—I think that the main focus should be on those who are jailed for a year or more. That is the model in the UK Borders Act 2007.

[Sarah Teather]

May I take up a point that I made to the Home Secretary earlier? As the hon. Gentleman knows, people are often trafficked, but the fact that they have been trafficked is not recognised immediately. Such people may have committed crimes while being trafficked, and may have served sentences of more than a year. It seems that, as a consequence of the restrictive nature of the new clause, we would be willing to send those people back to enslavement following the removal of article 4.

[Mr Raab]

That is an important point, but I think that I can give the hon. Lady some reassurance. If I understood her correctly, she was suggesting that because article 4 would be removed as an excuse for trumping deportation, we could send people home to be subject to slavery or something akin to it. That would automatically be caught by article 3, which covers “inhumane or degrading treatment”. There has never, to my knowledge, been a case in either the Strasbourg or the United Kingdom courts in which deportation has been trumped on the basis of article 4. It would already be covered under article 3, which is very well-trodden ground. I therefore think that her entirely legitimate concern has been catered for, but if she wishes to intervene again, I will give way to her.

[Sarah Teather]

What about other matters relating to the convention, such as the right to practise one’s religion and the right to a private life in relation to one’s sexuality? Is there not a possibility that people would be sent back to a country where they would be persecuted?

[Mr Raab]

From the sound of it, I have reassured the hon. Lady on the first point, which is good news. On the second point, a deportation order has never been trumped on those other grounds. The only grounds on which that has happened are article 2 on the right to life, article 3 on the right not to be tortured and article 8, which now makes up the lion’s share. I therefore do not think that that problem would arise. She talked about persecution. Let us be clear that any persecution that threatens life or limb is already caught by the exceptions under articles 2 and 3. I have deliberately preserved those because the hon. Members from across the House who support the new clause and I support the absolute prohibition on torture and inhumane or degrading treatment. If she is really concerned about this focused issue, those exceptions will deal with all those cases.

[Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)]

Is there not a prior point that if someone has a genuine, well-founded fear of persecution by the state to which they might return, they have a near absolute right to claim refugee status in this country under the 1951 convention?

[Mr Raab]

The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. We probably would not even get on to article 2 or 3 in such cases. That situation is preserved under my new clause. I thank him for that important intervention.

[Dr Huppert]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Raab]

I will make a little progress, but I will certainly come back to the hon. Gentleman.

The key difference between my proposals and part 2 of the Bill is that my proposals would deal with the problem. They do not require us to scrap the Human Rights Act or pull out of Europe. To the great chagrin of some of my colleagues, my proposals do not dip their toe into those totemic, polemical matters. They would not be struck down by UK judges, because they would be unequivocal primary legislation with overriding force. They are expressly within the terms of the Human Rights Act. That is spelled out in the memo to which the shadow Minister referred, if he reads it carefully.

We must be clear that incompatibility and illegality are two different things. It is clear that the UK courts would enforce the new clause that I am putting before the House. It is also clear from the most recent Home Office advice that I have received, to which hon. Members have also referred, that the new clause would not attract a rule 39 injunction from Strasbourg. That is because there would be no irreversible harm. It is extremely rare that Strasbourg would even consider a rule 39 injunction in such a case. The original memo that the shadow Minister cited referred to this matter, but the most recent memo from the Home Office team that has been sent to me, which is from November, is very clear:

“we do not expect interim measures under Rule 39 to be issued routinely, if at all.”

Of course, it is likely that if my new clause attracted a rule 39 injunction, the clauses in part 2 would be equally susceptible to such a challenge. That is the key point: the official advice from the Home Office is that such a challenge is very unlikely.

[Richard Fuller]

Will my hon. Friend give way?

[Mr Raab]

I will just expand on this point. I have quoted the advice that I have received. If anyone thinks that the new clause has been tabled with the aim of flouting UK law or engaging in illegality, as opposed to doing something that might be incompatible with the wider, opaque obligations of the ECHR, they misunderstand the point. It is wrong to say that that is what the Home Office’s advice states, because I deliberately sought its advice.

Even if we face a longer-term claim to Strasbourg that is not based on injunctive relief, the new clause remains faithful to the convention. We must not forget that for a second. Paragraph 2 of article 8 on the right to family life provides a list of grounds for curtailing the right to family life, including law enforcement, crime prevention, public protection and protecting the rights of others, which is what the colleagues from both sides of the House who support the new clause care so deeply about.

[Chris Bryant]

I understood the hon. Gentleman to mean that he had sought the same legal advice as the Home Secretary. The Home Secretary said clearly that the Attorney-General had said that new clause 15 was incompatible with the European convention on human rights, but the hon. Gentleman says that he has seen the same advice and that the new clause is compatible with the convention—or have I got that wrong?

13:45

[Mr Raab]

Very briefly, that is not what I was saying. I think that the hon. Gentleman has added one and one and made three. I have received a memo from the Home Office team that sets out the position on rule 39 in relation to article 8 cases. Precisely because of the concerns that are shared across the House, I asked whether we were likely to see a deportation process gummed up by a rule 39 injunction.

[Chris Bryant]

So the Home Secretary is wrong.

[Mr Raab]

I will come to that, but I want to be clear about what the advice is. The advice that I received from officials was that Strasbourg would rarely, if ever, consider a rule 39 injunction in relation to an article 8 case because there is no irreversible harm.

[Mrs May]

If I may, I will make a triaged intervention, Madam Deputy Speaker. To clarify, all I said was that I had received legal advice. It is not the practice for Ministers to say in this House whether legal advice has come from the Attorney-General or from other sources. I am absolutely clear from the legal advice that I received that new clause 15 is incompatible with the European convention on human rights.

In answer to my hon. Friend, the advice from the Home Office is absolutely clear that a rule 39 injunction would be less likely to be imposed where the decision had undertaken a balancing act in considering the issues. That is precisely what the Bill allows. My hon. Friend’s new clause does not allow that. That is why rule 39 would be more likely to be used under his proposal.

[Mr Raab]

I thank the Home Secretary for her intervention. I have the memo that I received in front of me. I will read from it so that there is no doubt and so that hon. Members can make up their minds. It states that it is clear from the case law that

“it would only be in exceptional cases that an interim measure would be granted in an A8 case.”

It goes on to say:

“I can’t say whether there has ever been a Rule 39 in a UK A8 case, but it is obviously rare.”

It goes on to say, because I was asking the question in relation to the Government’s clauses:

“we do not expect interim measures under Rule 39 to be issued routinely, if at all.”

I do not want to engage in a clash of legal opinions here, although the Attorney-General is free to intervene on me, but I say briefly in response to the Home Secretary that there is nothing in the limited case law of Strasbourg to suggest that the Bill and the new clause that I have tabled are different. One never gets such precision from the Strasbourg Court and I do not think that that is what the Home Secretary meant.

[Mr Bone]

My hon. Friend seems to have won over one Member of the House who is not here at present, because the BBC is reporting that the Prime Minister supports his aim and has ordered his Ministers not to oppose him.

[Mr Raab]

I thank my hon. Friend for keeping the House updated on that important development.

The key point is that it is clear from the text of the European convention—I have referred to paragraph 2 of article 8—that, under the terms expressly set down by the architects of the convention, the new clause is proportionate. It is proportionate because it applies only to serious criminals who have been imprisoned for a year or more. It therefore ought to withstand any appeal to Strasbourg.

I remind the House that we are not entirely sure how any litigation in Strasbourg on this issue would pan out, whether on the basis of the Bill or the new clause. That is partly because the 47-member-state Council of Europe, to which the Strasbourg Court is accountable, has made two recent declarations in Izmir and Brighton calling on Strasbourg in unequivocal language to meddle less in immigration cases. We therefore have every reason to believe that we will have a greater margin of appreciation in future. I pay tribute to the Minister without Portfolio, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke), for the efforts that he made when he was Justice Secretary to achieve those resolutions, which have paved the way for the new clause.

[Sarah Teather]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Raab]

I will not give way again, because I have been reasonably generous to the hon. Lady and I want to give other Members an opportunity to speak.

If we are honest, we know that any serious reform in this area risks being frowned on by the Strasbourg Court at some point in the future. The goalposts keep on shifting. That is how we got to this point in the first place. However, the same objection applies to the Bill. As the president of the Supreme Court and the former Lord Chief Justice, Lord Judge, have stated many times, the last word on the balance between human rights and public policy must remain with the UK courts and, ultimately, with elected and accountable law makers in Parliament.

There has been a lot of heady talk about human rights reform. Today, we have an opportunity to do something about it.

[Dr Huppert]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Raab]

I will not give way because I want to give other hon. Members a chance to speak. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman is one of those who will be queuing up.

New clause 15 and amendment 62 are practical, common-sense proposals that would protect the public, restore some common sense to our justice system and restore some trust outside this place. I commend them to the House.

[Mr Straw]

On 24 November 2003, a young girl aged 9, Amy Houston, was killed on the west side of my constituency of Blackburn by a man driving a motor car, Aso Mohammed Ibrahim. He was an unfounded asylum seeker with no basis for remaining in the United Kingdom, and at the time of the motor accident had a number of convictions for driving while disqualified and driving without insurance. He received a relatively short prison sentence for causing death by careless driving. Thereafter, he developed a relationship with a woman in my constituency who already had two children by other men. He then went on to commit further offences.

When the Home Office made efforts to deport Aso Mohammed Ibrahim, he resisted them on article 8 grounds. The matter went before a tribunal, which found in his favour. I was Justice Secretary by that time, and I spoke to the then Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), who ensured that a vigorous appeal was mounted in respect of that tribunal judgment. A new appeal was established, but that too was lost. Principally, it was lost on the ground not of Strasbourg law but of the way in which the British courts had widened the basis of article 8 beyond that of Strasbourg in order to protect individuals in this situation.

Knowing far more about the background of the case than ever went before the tribunals, my opinion was—and remains—that that man had abused his position in this country and set out to develop a relationship with a woman and have children with her solely in order to evade deportation and immigration controls. It is a matter of regret to me and to my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle that the courts appeared to endorse his wilful decision to evade those controls.

It is for those reasons that I, and those on my Front Bench, strongly support the amendments to the law that appear in clause 14 of the Bill. I have great regard for the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab), and I have talked to him at considerable length about the merits of his new clause. I am also listening carefully, as I said I would, to the debate today. I have no difficulty with seeking to direct the British courts towards a different conclusion from that towards which they are currently directed by the higher domestic courts in this country. That is also the purpose of clause 14.

I do have a problem, however, with the House knowingly deciding to legislate in a way that the best advice suggests would be incompatible with convention rights. That is because I am a strong supporter of the European convention on human rights. If the House wishes to decide to leave the convention, or to abrogate individual parts of it, it should seek to do so explicitly, rather than through an amendment of this kind. I accept that the hon. Gentleman has thought carefully about this matter, but it is with regret that I shall be unable to support his proposal today.

I also want to say a few words to those who think that this is all about the Human Rights Act. I was the Minister responsible for the Act, and I am proud of it. I hope that I will not cause the Attorney-General, the right hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr Grieve), too many blushes if I say that I remember his courageous maiden speech in the House, in which he spoke out in favour of the Human Rights Bill, as it then was. Those on his Front Bench voted against the Bill on Second Reading, but by the time we reached Third Reading they had come round and wished the Bill well.

[Mr Hanson]

Given that the Attorney-General is in his seat, does my right hon. Friend agree that it would be appropriate for him to help us by telling the House what advice the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) and the Home Secretary have had on this measure? In that way, he could provide clarity to enable us to discuss the matter formally.

[Mr Straw]

rose—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. If the Attorney-General wishes to speak, he will find the right time to do so. It is not up to the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) to decide when that should be, and it should certainly not be in the middle of a speech by the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw).

[Mr Straw]

I am sure that the Attorney-General and the hon. Member for Esher and Walton have had discussions about this, but for the avoidance of doubt, it does not lie in my mouth to suggest that the Attorney-General’s advice to Ministers should be made public. [Interruption.] And I would say to my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) that I do not think there are good reasons to make that advice public. We are all entitled to legal professional privilege, including Ministers.

[Keith Vaz]

And former Ministers.

[Mr Straw]

Yes; that is even more important.

I want briefly to comment on a point made by the hon. Member for Canterbury (Mr Brazier) on the way in which the higher courts have interpreted the Human Rights Act. I am proud of the Act, and although we can always amend legislation in the light of experience, I do not believe that it needs to be amended. It is a well crafted Act that brings into British law the convention rights to which we are subject anyway. The idea was that those rights should be accessible here, rather than in Strasbourg. Abolishing the Act would not remove our obligations under the European convention; the British Government would still be subject to them, but those rights would be more difficult to access.

The problem with the Human Rights Act is the way in which our higher courts have interpreted sections 2 and 3. They place on the courts an obligation to “take into account” Strasbourg jurisprudence, but our courts have interpreted that as meaning that our courts should follow Strasbourg jurisprudence. If the House had meant to use the word “follow”, we would have put it into the legislation. We did not do so; we used the words “take into account”. The Law Lords, in their wisdom, decided that in practice that meant “follow”.

[Mr Geoffrey Cox (Torridge and West Devon) (Con)]

But does the Supreme Court have any option but to follow Strasbourg, where there is a clear authority in Strasbourg? It knows that the case will then go to the Strasbourg Court, that its decision will be disapproved and that a contrary decision will come from Strasbourg. So, where there is a clear line, the Supreme Court has to follow Strasbourg in that way.

[Mr Straw]

With great respect to the hon. and learned Gentleman, the occasions on which the judgments of the Strasbourg Court are absolutely clear and on the point are extremely infrequent. It would also be unusual for a case to get that far if a case in Strasbourg was four-square with an incident case in the British courts. What would be the point of taking such a case that far?

[Mr Cox]

Prisoners’ rights?

[Mr Straw]

We do not want to get drawn down that particular rabbit hole, but the case of Hirst makes my point. For the avoidance of doubt, if the hon. and learned Gentleman reads the original judgment in that case, he will see that it involved such uncharted territory that at least five of the senior judges in the Strasbourg Court found in favour of the United Kingdom Government and not in favour of the criminal, Hirst. I also say to the hon. and learned Gentleman that if he follows a whole series of lectures given by very distinguished jurists in this country from Lord Hoffmann through to Lord Judge, he will see that there has been a strong current of opinion among our high judiciary against the views that are being taken by the Law Lords and the Supreme Court. Happily, I have summarised those in the second lecture I gave in the Hamlyn series in 2012, and I will send my notes to the hon. and learned Gentleman.

There is a serious issue that we need to put right to ensure that, in future, greater flexibility is given to the British courts. Yes, of course the courts have to apply the convention, which was the point made in the articles; that is made absolutely clear under section 2 of the Human Rights Act. As for the degree to which the courts apply the Strasbourg jurisprudence based on those convention articles, they need to take account of it, but not follow it. It is very important that our courts get back to the intention of this Parliament in 1998 when it passed the Human Rights Act. Had they done so, Aso Mohammed Ibrahim would not still be in this country. The problems we ran into there were not in respect of the convention of the Strasbourg Court or of the Human Rights Act, but in respect of the way in which article 8 had been interpreted by our own courts. It is my earnest hope that clause 14 will lead to some change in that.

14:00

I hope that the Home Secretary will take away and consider what the hon. Member for Esher and Walton has proposed. He was a very good lawyer in the Foreign Office when I was Foreign Secretary. He is not someone who is foaming at the mouth about the Human Rights Act. There is serious purpose in what he has suggested, and there may be a way through to meet halfway, between what the Home Secretary proposes and what he proposes.

[Mr Raab]

On this point of the legality, it is clear from how the Human Rights Act has been drafted that, where there is an incompatibility, ultimate sovereignty remains with Parliament and the Government. Therefore, the issue of illegality is separate from incompatibility. Given all the points that the right hon. Gentleman has made about the opacity, the shifting goal posts and the difficulty of nailing down the case law in Strasbourg—it does not have a doctrine of precedent—does he also agree that, for all the talk of Government legal advice, it is almost next to impossible, unless one is giving defensive and cautious advice, to give clear and focused advice on where Strasbourg will go, let alone where it is currently at?

[Mr Straw]

There are some instances where it is obvious, and some where it is less obvious. The hon. Gentleman is correct to say that even if a judgment is made by the Attorney-General, and indeed if the declaration is made by the British courts of incompatibility with the convention rights, section 4 of the Act makes it absolutely crystal clear that those provisions remain in force. That was part of the elegant architecture of the Human Rights Act. The role of the Parliamentary Counsel was to ensure that parliamentary sovereignty over individual legislation was maintained. The problem of the hon. Gentleman—as he knows I really wanted to support his position—is that the Home Secretary has a duty under section 19 of the Act to say whether or not the provisions in the Bill as it goes forward are or are not compatible with the convention.

I once signed a certificate saying that a particular Bill was not compatible with the convention, and Parliament still passed it. None the less, it does create difficulties. We cannot suddenly, on a wing and a prayer, say, “Well, in five years’ time, this will end up before the Strasbourg Court.” It is something that will come before Parliament at the next stage of this legislation.

[Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)]

I am slightly troubled by the right hon. Gentleman’s argument. When the original Act was brought forward, the Home Office publication was clear. It said that the Bill provides for legislation

“to be interpreted so far as possible so as to be compatible with the Convention. This goes far beyond the present rule which enables the courts to take the Convention into account in resolving any ambiguity in a legislative provision.”

At the time the Human Rights Act was put before the House, the Home Office knew exactly how far-reaching the change would be.

[Mr Straw]

I do not follow the hon. Gentleman’s point. None the less, it is still the case that the Home Secretary signs a certificate under section 19 saying that the Bill is compatible with the convention. Section 3 of the Act requires primary legislation to be read and given effect in a way that is compatible with convention rights, and that is what we are talking about. Parliament can pass any Act it wants. It may be incompatible, but it can still be in force. We are all concerned to ensure that as many people as possible are deported, where it is justifiable, as quickly as possible.

[Charlie Elphicke]

The right hon. Gentleman was saying that the courts had gone too far in the interpretation of section 3. My point was that the Home Office at the time was clear that that was the purpose it wanted to achieve.

[Mr Straw]

With respect, the hon. Gentleman is confusing section 3 with section 2. Section 3 says that the courts must read legislation

“in a way which is compatible with the Convention rights.”

That is the black letter text of the convention articles. Section 2 says that a court or tribunal that is determining a question which has arisen in connection with a Convention right “must take into account” the judgments and jurisprudence of the Strasbourg Court. It is in respect of section 2 and the jurisprudence of the Strasbourg Court that our courts have extended the words “take account” to mean “follow”. That has been the basis of some of our problems, including the over-extension and elaboration—unnecessary in my judgment—of article 8 rights.

I am aware that there are others who wish to speak, so I will finish there.

[Sarah Teather]

I have a number of amendments in this string. I wish to speak to amendments 56 and 57, which relate to immigration detention. Amendments 2 to 5 and 58 are around the best interests of children. Amendment 61 is a sunset clause, which relates to legal aid. Amendment 60 relates to the use of force. I want to make a couple of remarks relating to Opposition amendment 1 and to speak against new clause 15 and Government new clause 18. I can hear Members groaning that I will be speaking for absolutely ages. They will be amazed because I can be remarkably quick.

Amendments 56 and 57 seek to impose some kind of challenge and limit on detention. The UK detains more people under immigration powers than almost any other country in Europe. Only Greece detains more, but it tends to detain people only for very short periods of time as they come to the border. In fact, we are unique in detaining people indefinitely. That experience of indefinite detention causes profound stress to the individuals concerned, many of whom suffer from mental health difficulties as a result of the journey that they made to get here, and many exhibit profound mental health difficulties during their period in detention.

Furthermore, in many cases, we have no chance of removing the people whom we have in detention to a third country. Often, people are left languishing in detention for extended periods because we are unable to move them to the country of their origin either because it is not safe to do so or because we cannot obtain travel papers. We have been repeatedly criticised for the number of people we detain and for the length of the period for which we detain them. Indeed, the detained fast track system seems to be largely used for administrative purposes. [Interruption.]

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. The Chamber has suddenly got very noisy. The hon. Lady is making important points, and other Members should do her and the House the courtesy of listening. If conversations have to take place, there are plenty of places outwith the Chamber in which those conversations can occur.

[Sarah Teather]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

The detained fast-track scheme seems to be a process largely of detaining people for administrative ease, often for extended periods, despite its name. It is as if we file people until we want to move them somewhere else and they end up being treated like blocks of paper rather than individual human beings.

[Ms Diane Abbott (Hackney North and Stoke Newington) (Lab)]

Does the hon. Lady agree that much of the detention is essentially punitive and without benefit of due process? We should always remember that these people have committed no crime.

[Sarah Teather]

I absolutely agree with the hon. Lady. Of course, it is not effective in doing what we claim to be trying to deliver. The people detained over a long period of time are those whom we are least likely to be able to remove. Detention Action monitored long-term detainees and found that only a third were ultimately removed or deported. The longer somebody is in detention, the less likely they are to be removed. Extreme stress is caused to the individual, extreme expense is caused to the UK and no benefit is gained for the wider common good.

Amendment 56 seeks to limit the time of detention to 28 days, forcing the Home Office to do what most other countries in Europe have managed to do and find some other way of enforcing removal without putting people into detention. Indeed, 82% of returned asylum seekers in Sweden left voluntarily. When I was a children’s Minister I had a great deal of discussion with the Home Office about ending child detention and we eventually managed to reach an agreement. I was pleased to hear the Home Secretary say in response to an intervention from my hon. Friend the Member for Cambridge (Dr Huppert) that we would put some of those provisions on the face of the Bill. I shall await the detail with interest and hope that everything we agreed in 2010 will be included and that it will not just be an agreement in headline.

[Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)]

There is of course a question mark over whether some detainees are minors. They often arrive in this country without the appropriate documentation and it can be difficult to know whether they are past the age of majority. Those youngsters, who subsequently prove to be minors, are still kept in detention.

[Sarah Teather]

There is a particular difficulty with the speed at which we determine the age of young people at the moment and it varies significantly from one borough to another. I encourage the Home Office to work closely with local authorities to try to speed that process up.

My point is that we have managed to do such a thing for families with children and a great deal of learning has happened in the Home Office that we could extend to adults held in detention. We are managing to remove people whom we want to remove without putting them into detention, and a great deal of good and innovative thinking has been happening. It would be fantastic if good practice in one area of the Home Office was to extend to other areas of the Department. A 28-day limit would sharpen the mind of the Home Office and encourage it to get on and do that.

Amendment 57 would ensure that people had an opportunity to challenge their detention by ensuring that it came up regularly for review. The review would first happen shortly after they went into detention and then at intervals thereafter. The UNHCR has repeatedly asked us to look at that and I strongly urge the Home Secretary to consider it.

Unfortunately, in direct competition with my proposals to try to encourage better due process for people in detention, the Government are proposing to remove people’s rights to apply for bail. That is a very retrograde step. I know that the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) has tabled amendments on this matter, and if he decides to press them to a vote I will certainly support them.

I have also tabled a raft of amendments on the best interests of children. The drafting of clause 14 appears to imply that certain children are somehow invisible, which goes completely contrary to the work I did in government as a children’s Minister. It was with significant frustration that I read the wording used in the Bill, which, from my perspective, undermines the work we did to end child detention and put in place in the Home Office a practice of considering the best interests of children. More to the point, it runs contrary to existing law. At worst it is unlawful, at best it is deeply and profoundly confusing.

14:15

We also seem to have a notion of the public interest that does not include children. We seem to have a narrow view of the public interest and to take a very right-wing perspective on it. I want to offer a slightly different view, which includes the best interests of children. I want to live in a society in which we are more sympathetic and in which we consider the rights of families as a matter of course and that is what my amendment 58 seeks to bring about.

Amendments 2 to 5 seek to try to correct the rather confused position in clause 14. If the Secretary of State must give her views about what is in the public interest, it must include children and must be in accordance with the UN convention on the rights of the child, which we have signed up to. Much of yesterday’s debate centred on the plight of children and it seems to me that such children in the UK would be aversely affected by the provisions in the Bill. An unaccompanied migrant who has been in the country for less than seven years will apparently be invisible to the Home Secretary as clause 14 is drafted. A settled child who came here at two, who has been here for less than seven years and who knows no other country is apparently also invisible to the Home Secretary.

When colleagues have pressed the Immigration Minister on such matters, he has sought to assure them that the courts are still bound by our duties under UNCRC and by the section 55 duty in the Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009 to ensure that welfare and safeguarding for children are provided for all children in the exercise of immigration functions. If that is the case, I wonder what the point is of tabling something that is confused and contradicts what the Immigration Minister claims will take primacy. As the Joint Committee on Human Rights has noticed, the most likely outcome is that front-line immigration officers will be unclear about the relationship between the section 55 duty and the test in the Bill.

We had a great deal of debate earlier about foreign national prisoners, but clause 14 applies to all article 8 claims and not just to the deportation of foreign national prisoners—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. I am sure that the hon. Lady is not talking about new clause 14 at this stage, because it comes in the next but one group of amendments. She may refer to it, but she must stick to this group of amendments.

[Sarah Teather]

I am trying to explain why I have tabled my amendments to the clause, as amendments 2 to 5 relate directly to clause 14, as do my other amendments. I cannot explain them without referring to clause 14 to clarify, I am afraid.

A lot of people might be under a misapprehension, as regards the redrafting of what is in the public interest, that the measure will only apply to a very small group of foreign national prisoners. My point is that it will apply to anybody who attempts to make an article 8 appeal.

Let me make a point about new clause 15 that follows on directly from those points. It seeks to move things in the opposite direction from the proposals I have been trying to make. I find it slightly astonishing that any hon. Member would put their name to something that states that it is okay to cause serious harm to children, to cause manifest harm to children and to cause overwhelming harm to children, and that it is only not okay to cause manifest and overwhelming harm to children. Indeed, it has to be the child of the particular individual concerned and it is otherwise fine to cause manifest and overwhelming harm to any child. I am absolutely astonished that hon. Members think that that is okay.

[Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)]

As a Member who put her name to the clause that the hon. Lady is disputing, may I say that if she looks at the intent behind it, she will see that Members such as me and others across the House wish to see the greater good of the population trump the good of the individual? She is losing sight of other people who may be harmed, who might be other people’s children.

[Sarah Teather]

I think I probably do not share her utilitarian view of what the greater good is. I probably have a slightly different view about the common good and do not think that that includes causing serious or manifest or overwhelming harm to children. That is why the UK is a signatory to the UNCRC, and why we believe that the best interests of children should always take prime consideration and that the law should be blind in that regard, irrespective of someone’s immigration status. It would be a sad day if the House legislated to say that it is okay to cause serious harm to children and indeed that it is okay to do that in order to pacify a Conservative party rebellion. That is not a good reason for legislating.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I wonder whether the hon. Lady is placing the blame on the wrong person. If someone is deported for committing a serious crime, it is the fault of that person, not of the state for following the consequence of what that person has chosen to do.

[Sarah Teather]

But is it the fault of their child? That is the point. The law allows us to weigh these tests up and it does not always say that if someone has a child there is not a case for deporting them, but it allows us to look at individual cases. The law must look at individual cases and not set hard and fast lines.

[Ms Abbott]

Does the hon. Lady agree that it has long been a principle of British law that we cannot hold children responsible for the wrongdoing of their parents? I do not know how many Members would want to live in a society where some children have more value than others.

[Sarah Teather]

I absolutely agree with the hon. Lady. The law must have the flexibility to look at individual cases. If we draw bright lines in the sand, it becomes difficult for judges to take into account individual circumstances.

Automatic deportation goes slightly wider than the issue of children. Further to the discussion on new clause 15, I want to raise a constituent case. A young man came here as an extremely young child and was given refugee status. His parents then had some difficulties and he was taken into care. His mother had mental health difficulties. The local authority negligently placed him into the foster care of a couple who were drug dealers and continued to engage in significant criminal activity during the course of which the young child was profoundly damaged, as one might well expect. The local authority was found criminally negligent in this case.

By the time the child turned 18 he was convicted of a serious crime. He went to prison. He would have been in prison for long enough to quality for automatic deportation, but he had been in the UK since he was a very young child. He had been given refugee status. There was no family for him to go back to. By all decent recognition of what had happened to him, the state had been negligent in how it treated him. I cannot see any way in which that young man would have protection under new clause 15 as it is drafted.

I come back to the point about what is in the public interest. I do not want to live in a society where judges cannot look at the detail of cases such as that of my constituent. We have had some debate about whether new clause 15 is in accordance with the European convention on human rights. I have had advice from the Immigration Law Practitioners Association that the Home Secretary was unlikely to be able to sign up to saying that the provision was compatible with the Human Rights Act 1998, which would make it difficult for it to go into the House of Lords. There was a mischievous moment when I wondered whether, despite my abhorrence for the new clause, I should support it in order to destroy the Bill completely, given that I do not seem to be able find enough people to vote against the Bill to wreck it, which is what I would really truly like to do, as there is little in it that I like.

We have not had much opportunity to discuss amendment 60. It relates to limits on the use of force by immigration officers and tries to bring it back to the status quo. This seems to be another example of giving a blank cheque, and to an organisation that has hardly covered itself in glory where use of force is concerned. We have had issues with use of force against pregnant women—something on which Her Majesty’s inspectorate of prisons was extremely critical of the Home Office. We have had the death of Jimmy Mubenga. Those are just two recent examples. It seems to me that a failing organisation that is poorly managed should never be given increased power to use force, especially as many of the functions of immigration officers do not properly involve the use of force at all.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

I commend the hon. Lady for tabling amendment 60. Jimmy Mubenga died in horrific circumstances. Is she aware that in many cases the forced removal is undertaken by contractors on behalf of the Home Office and those contractors are not necessarily trained in what they do? Appalling injuries take place and a large number of deportations are stopped because the airlines refuse to take people in an unsafe situation.

[Sarah Teather]

That is exactly the point. The Bill effectively gives all immigration officers retrospective freedom against any Act that has previously come into force, any power that immigration officers have and any future power that they have to use force to do what they want to do. Given the problems that we have already seen in making sure that contractors and immigration officers follow best practice, know what they are doing and are properly trained, how on earth the Home Office will be able to devise a training programme to cover every possible power that immigration officers have is beyond me.

I dare say that in most things that immigration officers can do, the reasonable force that is appropriate will be zero. Will the Home Office issue guidance for every possible power that an immigration officer has? I go back to the point I made earlier. The Bill goes against the agreement that we made in relation to treatment of children and families that we would end child detention. The agreement was much wider, I hasten to add, than families being kept in Yarl’s Wood. It was about working with children and families and the extent to which force would be used throughout the process. The power in schedule 1 is very worrying, and there has been no press scrutiny of it.

Labour amendment 1 would remove the provisions in the Bill that limit the right of appeal.

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. Before the hon. Lady comes on to her next point, the House appreciates that she has many important points to make and that this is a large group of amendments and new clauses. Her speech is perfectly in order, but now that she has spoken for more than 20 minutes, she might consider drawing her remarks to a conclusion. She might not be aware that I have had notice that at least 14 other hon. Members wish to take part in the debate, and time is limited.

[Sarah Teather]

I do not have many other points to make.

I want to make a point about amendment 1 that has not been made. There has been a great deal of guff about the Bill being focused on restricting the rights of appeal of people who do play by the rules. It is important to stress that the restrictions on appeal in the Bill are exactly for those who do play by the rules. They are for people who come here to work and for family purposes. When taken together with the changes that make it more difficult to get a spousal visa, it is hard not to see this as an attack on family life. An administrative review is simply not equivalent to an appeal. An organisation such as the Home Office cannot be expected to challenge itself. I would be grateful if the Home Secretary addressed the point that I made in an intervention on the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) about the anomaly with respect to administrative review and appeal when applying for variation in leave.

14:30

If a Division is called on new clause 18, I will certainly vote against it. If the Opposition decide to press their amendments to the new clause, I shall vote with them, but those amendments do not go far enough, because making people stateless is simply wrong. I accept that the Home Secretary says that the measure will apply to only a limited number of people, but that does not make it any less wrong. If the new clause is accepted, we will find ourselves on a list of states that represents a roll-call of dishonour, but I want us to be leading international policy in this area, rather than trailing it.

I am, frankly, aghast that my party has been willing to sign up to new clause 18. If a Division is called on it, I would strongly encourage my colleagues to vote in the No Lobby. It is difficult for any Liberal Democrat to support such a measure, especially as the safeguards that the Home Secretary talked about will be set out nowhere in the Bill.

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

I call Pete Wishart.

[Pete Wishart]

Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I was not expecting that, but I am delighted to be called so early in the debate.

This is a rotten Bill made all the more rotten by some of these appalling amendments. We are in this position because the Government are in an appalling race to the bottom with the UK Independence party—this is all about seeing who can be toughest on immigration. I have to say to the Home Secretary, “You’re not gonnae win that one—forget about it. You cannot out-UKIP UKIP. They are the masters of nasty, pernicious populism, and you’ll never beat them.” It is a credit to the Government that they will not be able to beat UKIP on such issues but, by God, with this Bill and their amendments, they are having a good stab at it. I expect the right hon. Lady to lose that particular battle.

The Government’s stated aim through the Bill is to make the UK a more hostile environment for illegal immigrants. Well done Home Secretary; you have certainly achieved that with fantastic aplomb. The job of these right-wing immigration Bills is to do two simple, straightforward things: stop people coming in; and kick out as many people we do not like as we can at the same time. The Bill manages to achieve both those objectives, and the addition of the Government’s amendments and new clauses means that it will be done even more thoroughly.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

Is the hon. Gentleman happy about how long it can take to remove someone who has broken the law and is not legally entitled to be here, despite the risk of their committing further crime in this country?

[Pete Wishart]

I will address that point directly because it is at the heart of what we are debating and something that my hon. Friend the Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford) mentioned. I am happy to ensure that people who have been found guilty of crime after going through the core judicial process are deported, but I am very unhappy about suspects being deported and facing the full force of the law. This is part of a trend. It was a theme of new Labour that a person needed to be only a suspect for things to be flung at them. Labour created a fantastic anti-civil libertarian state that the Conservatives, to their credit, dismantled quite effectively, but we will now have an anti-civil libertarian state—created by new Labour and continued by the Conservatives—that has the basic premise that it is all right to throw suspects out of this country and to treat them appallingly.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

Is the hon. Gentleman aware that if someone is deported but allowed to conduct an appeal in this country, it is almost impossible for them to do that? A deportation therefore effectively involves no real right of appeal nor any real access to justice, so it is a pernicious decision.

[Pete Wishart]

The hon. Gentleman is spot on, and he gets to the heart of what we are debating. What is happening in this country—the fact that we are prepared to legislate in such a way—makes me feel ashamed. It is appalling that my country of Scotland is being dragged into this nasty, pernicious, appalling race to the bottom on immigration. It is such a shame that we are not independent yet to allow us to get out of this absolute nonsense.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

So you are against the Bill.

[Pete Wishart]

I think the right hon. Gentleman will find that I probably am.

[Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)]

Surely it is within the scope of the hon. Gentleman’s Parliament and Executive in Scotland to change the law and make the situation in Scotland narrower.

[Pete Wishart]

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s intervention because it takes me on to new clause 11, which the Home Secretary tabled at the last possible moment. The new clause deals with sham marriage and civil partnership, which is a responsibility of the Scottish Government and a competence of the devolved Parliament in Edinburgh. As you well know, Madam Deputy Speaker, marriage is subject to Scots law. The hon. Gentleman has been in the House longer than me, so we have both been here through the devolution experience, and I think this is the first time that we have seen a Bill that impacts on matters for which we have legislative responsibility without having a legislative consent motion to allow the House to legislate on behalf of the Scottish Parliament.

As far as I am aware, the Scottish Government have called again and again for an LCM so that the Scottish Parliament can decide whether to allow this Parliament to legislate on its behalf. No LCM has been forthcoming at all, even though we are responsible—

[The Minister for Immigration (Mr Mark Harper)]

indicated dissent.

[Pete Wishart]

The Minister indicates that an LCM is not necessary, but does he agree that we are responsible for marriage and civil partnerships? We are responsible for the health service and housing in Scotland, but there has been no LCM to ask the Scottish Government if they agree to allow Westminster to legislate. We are totally unsatisfied with the Minister’s responses on this—

[Mr Harper]

rose—

[Pete Wishart]

We should have an LCM, but the Minister can explain why we are not getting one.

[Mr Harper]

With the greatest respect, I have had conversations with the First Minister and engaged in correspondence with Scottish Ministers. Our clear view is that the Bill deals with reserved matters for a reserved purpose, so we do not believe that an LCM is needed. The tone of the responses that I have received from Scottish Ministers—Scottish National party members of the Scottish Government—does not accord with what the hon. Gentleman says.

[Pete Wishart]

That is not my view of the correspondence that I have seen. I am surprised that the Minister says such a thing because the Bill is foreign to how we want to run our NHS. It has nothing to do with how we want to deliver our devolved services. We are not privatising the NHS like they are down here; we want to invest in it and ensure that it sticks to the ’45 principles of “from cradle to grave”. We fundamentally disagree with the Government about the need for such measures, and we want an LCM so that we can say clearly to them, “Stay out of our devolved services. Keep your race with UKIP out of our delivery of the NHS and other devolved services.” I still hope, although it is probably too late, that we will have an LCM.

A number of the measures in the group are pretty chilling, one of which is new clause 18, on which the Home Secretary spent such a good part of her hour and a half speech. What an appalling measure. This is about removing citizenship from people. Watching the Home Secretary’s attempts to respond to the many searching “what happens if” questions would almost have been comical were it not so sad. She could not start to answer the simple question—some of my hon. colleagues on this side of the House might want to revisit this during the winding-up speeches—of what happens to someone who is stripped of their UK citizenship but is not taken by any other country. I think I heard something along the lines of, “We might give them their citizenship back,” but if that is the case, what is the point of doing it in the first place? Who is going to take these people? Are we going to launch them into orbit and leave them circling round the Earth as stateless people without any sort of citizenship? Is France going to take them, or Germany? [Interruption.] What about an independent Scotland, I am asked. Where will those people go? This is the big question that the Home Secretary has been unable to answer: what will happen to those people once they have been deprived of their citizenship? What will happen to their children, or the people who depend on them? We really need to hear from her on that.

The Home Secretary is effectively asking us to agree to allow her to rip up the passports of people who live in this country. As I have said, these measures have been introduced so late in order to prevent Back Benchers from having the opportunity to speak about the most important parts of the Bill and so that they cannot be voted on, which is absolutely appalling. In fact, to say that the Government’s amendments look like they had been written on the back of a fag packet is to do a disservice to some fantastic speeches that I have heard delivered from the back of a fag packet. Little thought seems to have gone into them.

The plans for the revocation of citizenship have been made by the Home Secretary behind closed doors and without any sort of due process or transparency. Hon. Members might have seen the reports in The Independent today about how some people have subsequently been killed in US drone strikes or rendered to secret locations to be interrogated by the FBI. Perhaps that is what will happen to all these people. They are being betrayed by their own Government, whose duty is to protect them, not throw them under a bus in order to help powerful allies, which looks like what we will be doing. She said that we are simply returning to the situation that existed before 2003, but the UK has signed and ratified the 1961 convention on the reduction of statelessness, to which more than 50 states are signatories. We will now be breaking that.

I will speak briefly about new clause 15, tabled by the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab). We know, as has been said again and again, that Conservative Members do not much care for article 8 of the European convention on human rights. They would have us believe that there are all sorts of foreign criminals marauding across our communities, living the life of Riley on benefits and then going home to phone their expensive lawyers, saying, “Get me off on article 8.” That is the type of image they present. They continue to attack some of the great protections that we have secured over many decades on the back of the European convention on human rights. We are now seeing yet another attack on our human rights. It is no surprise that it comes from the Conservative Back Benches. I very much hope that we will resist it.

[Charlie Elphicke]

On a point of clarification, and in relation to the new clause tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab), if Scotland were to become independent, does the hon. Gentleman believe that it would not only petition to join the European Union as a new accession state, but seek to join the Council of Europe?

[Pete Wishart]

Yes, and I will tell the hon. Gentleman something else: an independent Scotland will sign up fully to the European convention on human rights and take our responsibility in that regard very seriously. We will not be cavalier, as this Government seem to be in their approach to some of these very important human rights. I look forward to the day when Scotland, as an independent nation, will take very seriously its responsibilities to protect our citizens and ensure that they are properly protected by international laws and regulations.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I do not understand why the hon. Gentleman does not have the courage to claim that Scotland would be the successor state and would therefore inherit membership of all those bodies, leaving England, Wales and Northern Ireland free from the European Union?

[Pete Wishart]

I invite the hon. Gentleman, who I know takes a great interest in these matters—

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

Order. I am going to give the hon. Gentleman the protection of the Chair on that question, which he does not have to answer, because we are beginning to stray a little—not far—from the point in question.

[Pete Wishart]

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, although I do not need your protection when it comes to these issues. All I will say to the hon. Gentleman is that he should turn up to next week’s debate on Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom so that can discuss them further.

I will bring my remarks to a close. What we are seeing today is a dreadful Bill being made even worse. We will vote against it on Third Reading, although I do not think that we will get much of a debate on Third Reading. It is a terrible Bill, and this has been an awful process. It makes me ashamed that we are still part of all this. I just long for the day when we will have a Government in Scotland who do not spend all this time exercising themselves, as this Government do, over immigration, EU exit and all the nasty and pernicious things they are doing because of UKIP. It might as well be Nigel Farage standing at the Dispatch Box. Why do we not just get him in, because he has the whole House dancing to a UKIP jig? That is what we will see right up to the end of this Parliament: Nigel Farage pulling all the strings of Conservative Front Benchers. They might as well have him at the Dispatch Box, because this is nothing other than a UKIP Bill.

14:45

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I must confess that the image of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary being a puppet on a string for Nigel Farage is one that is new to most Members of the House, and one that seems rather far from the truth. I wish to speak to two new clauses: new clause 15, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab), and which I have signed; and new clause 18.

May I first say how fortunate it is that the Government and the authorities-that-be have ensured that new clause 15 has come up for debate this afternoon? It is crucial that the House of Commons should get to debate that which the House of Commons wishes to debate, and 105 signatures to a new clause is a clear statement of that desire. The business managers therefore deserve to be commended for their wisdom in allowing that to happen, and those in even higher positions of authority—I am thinking of Mr Speaker, in particular—follow in a fine tradition of Speakers who have ensured that the will of the House has been allowed to be expressed and a view come to. That is good fortune for us all.

I must confess that I disagree fundamentally with the case made by the hon. Member for Brent Central (Sarah Teather). It seems to me that part of our system of liberty is the fact that liberty comes with responsibilities. One of those responsibilities is that if a person’s actions are illegal, a punishment will follow, and that punishment is their responsibility and their fault. They cannot get out of it because other people might be indirectly affected by it. That is not what their actions have caused; their actions have caused them to go to prison, for a minimum of a year according to the new clause, and then to be deported because they were foreign criminals and therefore had no automatic right to be here in the first place. That is an important and fair principle.

If the alternative view is taken, which is that there will be knock-on effects on other people and therefore it is unfair and unreasonable to allow a punishment to take place, then no punishment can ever take place and we can have no proper rule of law in this country. Whenever somebody commits a crime and is likely to be sent to prison, they will say that their family cannot cope with that and that it will be unfair, and therefore their sentence must be brought down and they must be free to carry on their life of crime. I fundamentally disagree with the hon. Member for Brent Central and think that the provision in the new clause is both proportionate and sensible.

[Mike Thornton]

I very much appreciate the hon. Gentleman giving way. I believe that he has misheard my hon. Friend the Member for Brent Central (Sarah Teather), because I know that he would not deliberately misinterpret her comments. She was by no means saying that someone should not be punished because they have children; she was saying that, when considering them for deportation, we should properly weigh in the balance the genuine difficulties and harm that could be done to children. By no means was she suggesting—I hope that I am right—that we should stop punishment. That was no part of her argument whatsoever.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his helpful clarification. The problem is that deportation is part of the punishment. The logic of the argument of the Member for Brent Central is that if someone’s punishment had an effect on their children that led not to “manifest and overwhelming harm” but to either manifest harm or overwhelming harm, it would be fundamentally and in principle unfair on the children, so that part of the punishment should not be carried out. Surely, however, it might equally be said that someone’s imprisonment would have an effect of manifest but not “manifest and overwhelming” harm on the children. If such an argument was accepted, the whole criminal justice concept of punishing people who have committed offences would become extremely difficult. Deportation is therefore simply a reasonable part of the overall punishment for someone who commits a serious offence.

I listened with great interest to the debate about the status of new clause 15 in European and UK law. A principle that we should always state and restate in this House is that, by its very nature, Parliament cannot pass a law that is illegal. We can pass laws that contravene international obligations or that we may decide our diplomatic relations require us to remove or repeal, but Parliament cannot pass an illegal law.

That point is important to remember, because there is a tyranny of lawyers. They give people advice stating that they think x or y, but until it has been judged by a court, that is no more than advice, which may be right or wrong. If my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary has been advised by the Home Office lawyer that the new clause does not meet the requirements of the European convention on human rights, that does not question the right of this House to pass it into law: it is our right to do so, and then to consider the judgment that may or may not be made by the European Court of Human Rights. That of course leaves open the question of whether the Home Secretary can sign the declaration that the Bill is compatible with the European convention on human rights. I am delighted that she is returning to her place as I say that.

My right hon. Friend has the right to go to another lawyer. When given legal advice that they do not like, many people see whether they can find one who gives different advice. Amazingly enough, when they pay a better lawyer, they sometimes get better advice. I hope that even in an era of austerity Her Majesty’s Government may seek out some better lawyers who can give improved advice that is more in line with what my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton said.

The question is therefore only one of incompatibility, not of legality. I hope that the Opposition Front Bench team will also think about that. Whether the new clause is accepted and passed into law is not fundamentally a legal decision, because the legal position is as yet unproved—it has not been tested in the courts—so it is a political decision or a political statement about what hon. Members on both sides of the House think is the right way to treat people from foreign countries who have committed serious crimes. I would take the political decision that it is right to expel them from this country, and that it would be wrong to do so only if extraordinary factors meant that they ought to have the right to stay.

[Yasmin Qureshi]

It is on exactly that point that some Opposition Members have concerns about new clause 15. As the hon. Gentleman says, there may be exceptional circumstances that mean a decision should be made not to deport somebody, but the new clause tabled by the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) would take away exactly such discretion, because it says, “If you get one year’s imprisonment, you’re out.”

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

As always, the hon. Lady makes an excellent point, but it is a question about which bit of discretion would be taken away. The courts would retain discretion if there was a threat of harm or a threat to life and limb, as my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton pointed out. Discretion would be circumscribed only in very specific cases relating to article 8, and that would be done because the courts appear to have made some quite eccentric decisions. What has really brought this to the attention of the British public is the huge backlog of deportations—4,000 people are apparently waiting to be deported—and the fact that a very high number of challenges are brought purely on the basis of article 8 rights, which cannot therefore involve people in fear of torture or of harm to life and limb. I do not think that anybody in the House wants to deport people at risk to life and limb. As a nation, we believe in offering refugee status to people genuinely at threat, but we are not in favour of the exaggeration of spurious rights.

As I have said, the decision is a political decision, not a legal one. It is for this House to make a political choice about how our criminal justice system works, what rights belong to people who have committed very serious crimes and how far such rights should go. If it became a legal decision—if it were taken to the courts—we would find out at a later stage whether the European Court of Human Rights thought it was compatible with the convention. The House would then make a second choice, which would be whether to maintain today’s political decision or reverse it to be compatible with the convention. That is not the choice before us today. This is a routine exercise of parliamentary sovereignty in adding to a Bill a provision that may become law and be justiciable at a later stage.

I know that a lot of other Members want to speak, so I will be brief on new clause 18. I have some concerns about it. I am perhaps rather romantic in my view of what it means to be a British subject. I always thought that Palmerston got it right on the Don Pacifico affair—the “Civis Romanus sum” principle. Once any one of us has a passport that says we are British, we are as British as anybody else, whether they were born here or got their passport five minutes ago. It is incredibly important that there is equality before the law for all Her Majesty’s subjects who are living in this country and have right of residence here.

I worry that if we give the Government the ability to take passports away from a certain category of British subject but not from others, it will create a potential unfairness and a second category of citizen. There are Members of the House who were born abroad and have been naturalised and, on occasion, they may vote against the Government, which I hope the Whips will not consider serious enough reason to remove their passport. The fundamental underlying principle of equality of all Her Majesty’s subjects is important. I am always nervous about giving the Executive relatively arbitrary powers, because they are the ones that can be most misused. Once a passport is in somebody’s hands, they ought to be no different from anybody else in any legal respect.

Crucially, there may well already be laws that could deal with the problem in another way. If people have committed an offence so serious, important and threatening to the life of the nation that their passport should be confiscated, surely they have committed some other crime for which they could be charged, dragged through the courts, perhaps found guilty by a jury and then sentenced accordingly, with the penalty handed down in the right and proper way and their rights and liberties as subjects being maintained. They may have committed treason if they have done something so serious that they are to have their passport removed from them.

I will not oppose the new clause, but I wished to raise those concerns. I understand that the approach has been agreed because it will not affect many people. That is fine—I am glad it will not have widespread application—but what message does it send to the nation at large?

[Jeremy Corbyn]

The hon. Gentleman makes a fair point in saying that not many people will be affected immediately, but once one gives a Minister an executive power to deny someone citizenship, who knows how many citizenships will be taken away in future?

[Jacob Rees-Mogg]

The House may be surprised to know that I am in almost complete agreement with the hon. Gentleman, which is rare—I think unique. One should always be suspicious of the arbitrary power of the state. As we saw with today’s proceedings about whether there would even be a vote on new clause 15, the arbitrary power of the state can sometimes be misused. The Executive sometimes have to come under pressure before they give way and allow the proper proceedings to take place. I much prefer a legal process, and I do not want to make the statement that people who have got their citizenship more recently than I did are in any sense lesser citizens. I fundamentally do not believe that. Anybody who is fortunate enough to be a subject of Her Majesty is an equal subject of Her Majesty with all others.

[Mr Brooks Newmark (Braintree) (Con)]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. It has just come to my notice that my name is on the list of those supporting the new clause and amendment tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab). I would like to make it clear that I have not spoken to my hon. Friend, nor given him my written consent to be named on his amendments. Can you advise me, Madam Deputy Speaker, on how I can get my name excised from the record, and will you look into tightening up the rules, such as by requiring a Member’s written consent before names are added to amendments in future?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order, which he made with his usual eloquence. It is now on the record that his name should not have been on the amendment paper today as a supporter of that new clause and amendment. I should tell him that it is quite normal for the Table Office to accept a list of names as supporters of an amendment, but it would appear that a mistake was made in this case. I will ensure that the House authorities take all steps that they can to amend the record, so that his name does not appear as a supporter of the new clause and amendment. He has been most effective in making his point of order in front of the whole House so that it is obvious that he is not a supporter of them.

15:00

[James Duddridge (Rochford and Southend East) (Con)]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am not aware of whether my name is attached to that new clause, but it was certainly not my intention or instruction to put my name down. Is there any way of clarifying the names attached to the new clause to see whether there have been any additional mistakes?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

I am sure the hon. Gentleman is aware that the simple method of clarification is to look at the list, which is on the amendment paper. I will not take up the time of the House by checking whether his name is on it, but he might wish to do so himself.

[Chris Bryant]

Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Just to help the hon. Member for Rochford and Southend East (James Duddridge), may I point out that he is not on the list? However, there are amendment papers all around the building, and to be honest, he could do his own homework.

[James Duddridge]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Chris Bryant]

I suppose so.

[James Duddridge]

My point was that I did not know about my name at that point, although I could check. However, how can I check to see whether all the names on the amendment paper are correct?

[Madam Deputy Speaker]

Order. We will not take up the time of the House in this important and short debate by discussing the composition of the amendment paper. It is in order and not a point of debate.

[Chris Bryant]

It is a great delight to follow the hon. Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg) although I would like to correct him on a few details. Although Palmerston thought that Don Pacifico was undoubtedly a British citizen, merely because of his birth in Gibraltar, that would not necessarily apply today in the same way because he was actually a Portuguese Jew who therefore had more than one nationality at the time. I am not sure that the hon. Gentleman’s point applies reliably to the debate.

I entirely agree with everything the Home Secretary said about sham marriages. They are a real problem and in certain places in the country—most notably around London and the west midlands—there is a real issue to be tackled. I warmly commend Ministers who have taken the right actions in the Bill to deal with that. I am concerned, however, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson) said earlier, about the business of removing people’s citizenship, not least because the way the proposal has been drafted gives a phenomenal degree of Executive power to the Secretary of State. I worry about that, as do several other Members, including the hon. Members for North East Somerset and for Brent Central (Sarah Teather).

Two years ago I remember going to the deportation centre at Heathrow and seeing a young man whose state we do not know. He refuses to say where he is from because he thinks he will be deported to that place. He had then been in that deportation centre for four years because for him, that half life in a sort of prison was better than the danger of being deported back somewhere. Some think the best way of dealing with the problem of deporting foreign criminals involves measures to change the rules on article 8. The biggest problem lies not with that, however, but with an awful lot of people who get to this country and instantly abandon their paperwork, either because that is what they intended to do from the beginning, or because they are from countries to which we simply cannot deport people. Again, I commend those Ministers who have worked—as Labour Ministers did in the previous Government—to try to ensure that people will not be subject to torture if they are returned to their country of origin, and that they will have a fair trial and so on There are, however, many countries around the world where such things still do not apply, and those cases make up the largest number of people, let alone those whose paperwork has been lost by the Home Office—also a substantial number. Of course I want foreign criminals to be deported and sent back to their country of origin, but I also want their human rights to be protected. I still believe in the right to a fair trial and am opposed to torture. I believe in all the things we have signed up to as a country. Let us not pretend that the Bill will sort out the bigger problem.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

Does my hon. Friend accept that one problem is the number of countries that have not signed the convention on torture? We should not deport anyone to a regime where no convention on torture is applicable, and we should not rely on dubious one-off agreements, which is what we have been doing.

[Chris Bryant]

I completely agree, and anyway, if we sought to deport anyone to such a regime, we would face the courts, which is a very expensive business in this country, and we would be certain of failure. It would be a nugatory exercise.

I worry about creating more stateless people, which is effectively the intention of the Home Secretary’s proposal. I can see an argument for making someone stateless when they are abroad—we can say that a person who has done something appalling, perhaps in another country, is longer welcome in this country and remove their citizenship—but I have a much greater problem with making someone stateless when they are in this country. What would we do? We make them stateless and deprive them of citizenship, but then what? Do we banish them? Do we pronounce exile? Does the Speaker demand that they leave the country? Do we march them to the airport if they refuse to go themselves? In any case, where will they go? What country will take them? That is my problem with the proposals being advanced. There is a mediaeval element in the Bill and it will not help us one jot.

[Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)]

I have been thinking about the question of where we might send people. Michael Howard, a previous Home Secretary, tried to send people to other parts of the world and President Obama sent Uighurs from Guantanamo to Bermuda. Perhaps we could consider sending people to some of the British overseas territories. St Helena comes to mind.

[Chris Bryant]

I do not know whether my hon. Friend is angling for a visit to St Helena.

My point to the Home Secretary is this: hon. Members know that there is an issue to be addressed and a legitimate question to ask, but this is not the way to advance legislation. The Government are introducing a significant change to the law on British citizenship at this late stage—on Report—and tabled the measure the day before the debate. If anybody wants to amend it, they must table manuscript amendments. If we are going down this route, it is important at least to have the safeguards the Opposition have tabled, but I wish we were doing this in a different way.

[Yasmin Qureshi]

On sending people away, if we take someone’s citizenship away and they are taken to the airport, where do we send them? They need travel documents. If they do not have them, no country will take them. The Government’s measures are completely impractical.

[Chris Bryant]

That is my problem. Sometimes legislation seems like a good idea but ends up being completely and utterly impracticable and making little difference. I suspect that that is the problem we will face with the Bill.

I know the Government are not seeking to do this, but my memory of countries that regularly took people’s citizenship off them in the 20th century is not a good one. It is a list of fascist countries. That is why I get very nervous about such moves. I am not saying that the Home Secretary is engaging in that, but when we give an arbitrary power and significant discretion to a Home Secretary to exercise it, there is a danger.

[Mr Ward]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Chris Bryant]

I am keen to finish because I know that many hon. Members wish to speak, but I will give way if the hon. Gentleman promises to be swift.

[Mr Ward]

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that this is one of the worst examples of the tail wagging dog we have ever seen? We all agree that the tail is unpleasant, but that does not mean we need to do terrible things to the rest of the animal.

[Chris Bryant]

I fear that that often happens in passing legislation. I have never known so many manuscript amendments as there have been this year. In the previous 13 years maybe two were accepted and we have had six or seven this year. I just do not think it is a good way of doing business.

The hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) is not in his place, which is a shame. I respect a lot of the issues he raised. There is an imbalance in the way the law relating to article 8 is constructed. Ultimately, the absolute core and rock on which our personal freedoms in this country are based is the rule of law. Because of habeas corpus nobody can be arbitrarily arrested. The law will determine, not party politics or a vote in the House of Commons. To those who regularly trot out the argument that the House of Commons must always have its way, I say, yes, but there are also the courts.

The rule of law, through the courts, argument and precedent developed over time, is a vital part of ensuring our ongoing freedom. That is not just about UK national law, but international law. I have a profound respect for the European convention on human rights. I thought the Home Secretary referred earlier to the Attorney-General having given the advice that the amendment was incompatible. I do not mind which lawyer it was and I am not urging her to publish it or anything like that— I take her at her word. If she believes that it is incompatible with the European convention on human rights, I cannot vote for the amendment and do not want to see it going forward from this House as part of the Bill. Why on earth would we want to do something that the Attorney-General, or whoever was masking for him to provide that advice, had said is incompatible? Every other lawyer I have spoken to, or that we on this side of the House have spoken to, has given exactly the same advice.

The hon. Member for Esher and Walton suggested that there are balancing issues and questions on whether there would be section 39 complaints or not. That is not my issue. All we have to do is look at the amendment, compare it with the European convention on human rights and see that the one does not match the other. That may be an inconvenient fact, but it would be illegal under our present treaty obligations. I do not want this country to renege on the European convention on human rights. We were right to bring it forward. David Maxwell Fyfe, who later became a Conservative Home Secretary—a nasty Home Secretary, I think—effectively drafted it and we should abide by it. We would be utter fools and disloyal to our treaty obligations if we were to support the amendment from the hon. Member for Esher and Walton.

[Mr Dodds]

On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can you give guidance to the House on whether there is any prospect of the next group of amendments, including those on European immigration and access to services, being discussed, debated and voted on today?

[Madam Deputy Speaker (Mrs Eleanor Laing)]

The right hon. Gentleman is aware that that is not a point of order. The way in which the debate progresses is up to the Members present in the Chamber and how long they speak for, as long as they speak in order. I will allow them to speak as long as they speak to the point in question and as long as they are in order. If hon. Members wish to speak for a very long time and deprive their colleagues of the opportunity to speak likewise, that is up to them. The right hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do that some Members of this House have a tendency to keep the floor when they have it.

[Mr Brazier]

I shall be mindful of your remarks, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I intend to follow the comments on the rule of law made by the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) in a moment, but may I first say that a number of Members have used the opportunity of the Report stage to attack the principles behind the Bill? This is an excellent Bill that addresses very real public concerns. I understand and share the concern that the amendments on deprivation of citizenship were tabled at the very last moment. Nevertheless, we must address the crisis of hundreds—some responsible sources suggest it might extend to thousands—of young men going abroad to be trained in terrorist activities. There is a tradition, which goes back to the dawn of time, of countries depriving people of citizenship where they engage in actively hostile military acts. Clearly, the wording needs tightening up, but it would require considerable discretion by the Executive—albeit exercised within a narrow definition of “hostile acts”—because it might not be possible to put some of the material before a court.

Mostly, I want to address new clause 15, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab). Time is short and others want to speak, so I will not produce any more of the heartrending cases, some of which he touched on. I noticed, looking around, that Members in all parts of the House found some of those cases intensely difficult to listen to. The characteristically thoughtful speech by the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) touched on another such case—one that I have heard him mention in the House before.

15:15

This debate goes to the heart of two theoretical questions, one of which we have spent quite a bit of time on, the other of which we have not touched on at all. The first concerns the relationship between this House and the British courts—all the way up previously to the House of Lords, but now to the Supreme Court—and the European Court of Human Rights. The second concerns judicial activism.

[Yasmin Qureshi]

On the point about removing people’s citizenship, my hon. Friend the Member for Hackney North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) was born in England, but I was born in Pakistan. We are both British nationals, but if she was to commit murder, which I am sure she is not going to, she could not be deported, whereas if I did, I could be. Is that fair?

[Mr Brazier]

That question runs across several different issues. I was making the same point that the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), the Chairman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, made, which was about people who take up arms abroad. Whether they were born in this country or not, there is a long tradition of stripping citizenship from people who commit such offences. On the issue of murder, if somebody holds British citizenship, I would not allow the Executive a specific power in that area. I hope that answers the hon. Lady’s question.

I strongly support new clause 15. We have heard about the various cases, including one from the right hon. Member for Blackburn, and we have gone around the buoy of these three centres of power—the British Parliament, the British courts and the ECHR. I strongly support the view of Lord Judge, the outstanding retiring Lord Chief Justice, that Parliament needs to make it clear which, ultimately, is the supreme court for British law. Is it the UK Supreme Court, as he suggests it should be, or are we going to concede that the final word lies in Strasbourg? I firmly believe that the final word should stay in this country.

The point that my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton made, which was repeated by a number of other people—including my hon. Friend the Member for North East Somerset (Jacob Rees-Mogg)—is that while his proposal is almost certainly incompatible with recent rulings of the European Court of Human Rights, that cannot mean that it is illegal. This is a sovereign Parliament. We can pass the measure and the courts can try cases under it. If we make it clear, as I believe we should, that the Supreme Court in this country should be the supreme court, we do not have a problem. It is by pursuing cases such as this that we can finally sort out whether or not, as some Members on both sides claim, it is possible to sort out these issues and still accept the ultimate sovereignty of Strasbourg. We believe that we have to sort it out by, as Lord Judge argued, stating that Parliament is ultimately a sovereign body and that the Supreme Court in this country is indeed the British supreme court. Only by having a measure like this can we sort that out.

[Sir Richard Shepherd (Aldridge-Brownhills) (Con)]

I am very grateful to my hon. Friend, who mentioned our colleague the hon. Member for Esher and Walton. Our course has been different historically. In the Somerset case in the second half of the 18th century, a slave had escaped and arrived in London and with the help of, I think, the Quakers, made an appearance in front of the courts. It was held that within our jurisdiction in this country he was entitled to the protection of the law. Somerset was given habeas corpus although he was not a citizen of this country and merely a slave who was passing through this country. That was our tradition, you know.

[Mr Brazier]

That was indeed our tradition. It has of course been suspended many times, including for six years during the second world war when German citizens were locked up. There was a divided ruling in the House of Lords, as my hon. Friend will be well aware, on one such German citizen who brought a habeas corpus case.

My point is this: only by putting a measure through can we see whether or not it is possible to sort out this kind of scandalous situation while still allowing Strasbourg to be the supreme court. Can we test it? That is the only way. Personally I think we should do what Lord Judge recommends; we should pass an Act making it clear that the European Court of Human rights should not be our supreme court and that it is only there for persuasive purposes and that, ultimately, the Supreme Court in Britain is our supreme court and that Parliament is sovereign.

I want to touch for a couple of minutes on a subject that has not been discussed at all and is extremely relevant to my hon. Friend’s amendment, which is judicial activism. The legislation that followed the Human Rights Act gave huge powers of discretion to judges; in fact one of the most interesting comments coming out of the Court of Appeal ruling on 8 October 2013 was its comment in passing that the reference to exceptional circumstances in the rules—to which I objected when it went through—was consistent with the proportionality balancing exercise required by Strasbourg jurisprudence. In other words, basically it did not affect judicial discretion at all.

The fact is that individual judges—who have accepted so little guidance from Parliament or resolutions of the House of Commons in this matter—have, basically off their own backs, acted in extreme cases involving people guilty of the most revolting crimes and allowed an article 8 ruling to overrule that. That has happened even when the family connection here was pretty tenuous; in one case, the family connection was desperate to disassociate itself from the individual. That is a measure of the extent to which we are suffering from judicial activism among at least one portion of the judiciary. I want to see the constitutional side of this fixed and I want my hon. Friend’s amendment to be passed. I shall vote for it. I also believe that we will need to pass a measure to make it clear that the supreme court in this country is the British Supreme Court. But I suspect that we will still have a residual problem with the issue of judicial activism.

Let me end my speech by reminding the House of perhaps the most famous case of judicial activism within a common-law jurisdiction in modern history, the Dred Scott case of 1865. I remind those who talk about the rule of law that had President Lincoln not stood up to the Supreme Court in America—had he not said “I was elected as President on this mandate: to prevent the spread of slavery into new states”, and brushed away the court’s finding—there would have been no civil war between 1861 and 1865, and there would have been no end to slavery in America at that stage. I think that most people believe that what happened was right.

[Frank Dobson]

I shall try to be very brief.

The Home Secretary’s proposal to extend her powers in respect of the removal of British citizenship from a limited and specific group of people must be assessed against the judgment that it is in the national interest or for the public good. I have to say that I have never heard anyone give a single example of Britain’s having benefited from some individual’s loss of British citizenship, and I think that it behoves the Home Office, and possibly the Foreign Office, to find out whether there actually have been any such benefits, because there are certainly disbenefits. Harm is done, or can be done, when someone loses British citizenship, and I do not mean that harm is done to the person who loses his citizenship. I mean that harm is done to other people—to the rest of us.

In my constituency, a young Somali—I do not know whether he is a terrorist or not a terrorist—went to Somalia, got married and had children. He was going to come back to this country, for what purpose I know not, but when he went to Djibouti he was arrested. After his arrest, when he was being handed over to some Americans, he said “You cannot do that: I am a British citizen.” He was then told “You are not any more, because the Home Secretary has taken your citizenship away.” He ended up being kidnapped by the Americans, and is now facing a court in New York. If he has done something that merits his going before a court in New York and he has never previously been to America, he could presumably have been prosecuted here for the same offence.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

Under the current proposals, the person whose passport was removed would not necessarily appear in a court anywhere. The proposed measure gives the Secretary of State a very broad power when she considers it conducive to the public good to deprive someone of a passport because his or her conduct is

“seriously prejudicial to the vital interests”

of the United Kingdom. No actual crime is specified anywhere. Everyone has been talking about terrorists or other criminals, but the problem is that the proposed power is so broad.

[Frank Dobson]

I entirely agree. That is why I am doubtful about the capacity to take away people’s British citizenship.

There is a substantial Somali community in my constituency. Needless to say, it includes quite a few testosterone-exuding young men who are very upset about what is happening in Somalia, and who are dubious about what the British Government are or are not doing. However, a much bigger group of young men, and young women, have been working tremendously hard in trying to combat the extremist elements, such as people preaching hatred. Indeed, they have been very successful in doing so, and the Prime Minister himself has commended their effort and commitment. For instance, they have massively improved the performance of Somali young people in schools. One of the things that they were able to say when countering the arguments of the extremists who were trying to lead local young people astray was, “Always remember that you are a British citizen now: you are British, not Somali.”

15:30

Since Mahdi Hashi lost his citizenship and was kidnapped by the Americans, the response of the extremists has been, “Oh yeah? You’re not really a British citizen. You’re only a British citizen on sufferance and the Home Secretary can take your citizenship away.” That has been very damaging to the people we are trying to encourage and has set back their efforts not just in my constituency, but in many other parts of the country where Somalis live.

I do not understand what benefits flow to Britain from taking away someone’s citizenship. Those benefits have never been specified by anybody. In the case of Mahdi Hashi, a large number of harms have been done, not just to him and his family—I do not know what citizenship his child now has—but to the rest of us who are trying to counter extremism.

[Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)]

In welcoming the underlying principles of the Bill, I think that it is important to remind the House that deportation is not a punishment in the legal sense. When somebody commits a criminal offence and is convicted, the punishment is the sentence. Deportation is a function of the Home Office and the UK Border Agency in exercising their powers in relation to nationality and the status of individuals within the country. It is important that we make that distinction, artificial though it may seem, to ensure that we have a deeper understanding of what deportation should be about. I make no apology for the fact that if people commit serious offences, consequences flow from that. When the offence is serious enough, the consequences should include deportation.

I welcome the UK Borders Act 2007, which was introduced by the previous Government. That Act changed the function of the criminal courts in the regime. Previously, a Crown court judge had to consider whether the continuing presence of an individual in the country was to the country’s detriment and make a recommendation on deportation. That was a cumbersome regime that did not lead to the results that the public wanted. Sensibly, the 2007 Act brought in the rule that deportation will be automatic for those who are sentenced to terms of imprisonment of longer than 12 months.

I support the clauses of the Bill that amend the 2007 Act to bring primary legislation into line with the immigration rules of 2012, which in my opinion have significantly reduced the margin of discretion that is open to judges, although it is possible to challenge the rules themselves, as we have seen. I think that those clauses will answer many of the legitimate questions that our constituents pose to us on the effectiveness of the deportation regime.

Let us not forget that, however many laws we pass and however much the debate rages over immigration law, the enforcement of that law is the most important thing in the eyes of the public. If the British public believe that our immigration system works, that wrongdoers are no longer in the country and that the deportation system is effective, faith will be restored. We cannot get away from that essential fact.

Of course, we are here to talk about legislation, so I will discuss new clause 15 and amendment 62, which were tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab). I know that he has taken great care in considering these issues and we have discussed them face-to-face many times. It is in a spirit of genuine concern that he has tabled new clause 15. However, there are serious questions that we have to ask about it. With respect to him, I think that he is in error when he suggests that the compatibility of the new clause with the convention would not be challenged. I think that it would be subject to such challenge, and I would go further and suggest that rule 39 would apply and that injunctive relief would be available. Let us imagine the consequences of that. If rule 39 injunctive relief were successfully obtained, that would gum up the works not just for one deportation but for thousands in the years to come.

[Dr Huppert]

The hon. Gentleman always stands up for the rule of law, and I entirely agree with him that the new clause would not be legal. Will he therefore join us in opposing it?

[Mr Buckland]

I think that the new clause is capable of achieving perfection, perhaps in the other place. As it stands, however, it does not work in terms of what it sets out to do. I am going to consider my position before deciding whether to abstain or to oppose it today.

I have looked carefully at the exceptions set out in section 33 of the UK Borders Act 2007, and at the discretion that the Home Secretary is given under the legislation. That discretion is based on a series of factual events such as the existence of hospital orders or other Mental Health Act dispositions. The exception proposed in new clause 11 gives a subjective discretion that does not sit well with the wording of the UK Borders Act. Once we opened the door to that kind of subjective discretion, what would be the difference between what the new clause hopes to achieve and the wording of the Bill in relation to the discretion that is to be given to the courts? In a nutshell, the Bill’s existing provisions, as amended, already do the job of dealing with serious offending and of making a proper distinction between offences for which sentences of more than four years’ imprisonment are imposed, and those for which under four years are imposed. There is a clear logic to the provisions, and the new clause is therefore unnecessary. It would create the risk of upsetting the entire apple cart when it comes to the important work of deporting serious criminals from our country.

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

Mr Deputy Speaker, you have rightly asked us to curtail our speeches and I shall try to complete mine in four minutes, but I am seething with anger. The Bill affects many of my constituents, and this is the only time for Back-Bench MPs to introduce or speak to amendments on Report. I am being denied that opportunity because most of my amendments will not be reached today.

I will speak to only one amendment in the group, amendment 79, which deals with the restriction of bail for detainees. I have 1,000 detainees in my constituency, at the Harmondsworth and Colnbrook detention centres. The Bill will deny many of them the right to apply for bail in the 14 days before their removal. I deal with detainees in my office almost every working day of my life. Large numbers of them are parents and, in those last 14 days, they want to get bail so that they can see their children. Others need bail because they are sick or suffering from a mental illness. The Bill will deny them that opportunity, on the approval of the Secretary of State.

The Bill will also mean that a person will be unable to apply for bail if they have already applied 28 days beforehand. That means that there could be new set directions under the first rule, and a rolling programme could mean that people never have the opportunity to apply for bail. Some might think that spending 28 days in a detention centre before someone can apply for bail is not that significant. I suggest that they visit a detention centre. I also suggest that they read the report on visits to the Harmondsworth detention centre during 2013. It sets out the number of people who doctors had determined were mentally ill, had ill health effects from their experiences or had been subjected to torture. Of the 125 being held under rule 35, only 12 were released.

I also ask hon. Members to read the report on mental health in detention centres that was published in January this year by Medical Justice. It states:

“There is a crisis of mental health in detention, as demonstrated by the many Court cases…Evidence and experience shows that mental illness is the greatest health issue for detainees. The safeguards to prevent the detention of those with serious mental illness are not working. The rate of mental illness is already high in those who are subject to detention, in part due to the stresses in their life journey to that time. Detention serves to increase that mental illness and distress”.

The reasons for that distress are clear. When someone is detained, they may be told that they cannot appeal for 28 days, then they may lose that appeal and bail as well. There then follows another 28 days, and so on. The detainee never knows when they will be released. That is why detention impacts on people’s mental health.

The report from the chief inspector of prisons came out earlier this month. It explains what is happening in detention centres. There is an increase in the number of self-harm incidents. A significant number of detainees are refusing to accept food. In Harmondsworth, we now have regular hunger strikes. The place has been burned down twice as a result of detainees’ anger at being detained. The report said:

“Disturbingly, a lack of intelligent individual risk assessment has meant that most detainees were handcuffed on escort… and on at least two occasions, elderly, vulnerable and incapacitated detainees, one of whom was terminally ill, were handcuffed in an unacceptable manner”.

These men were so ill that

“one man died shortly after his handcuffs were removed and the other, an 84-year-old man, died while still in restraints.”

Those were

“shocking cases where a sense of humanity was lost.”

That is what Her Majesty’s inspector of prisons said four weeks ago.

It is unacceptable to detain people on such a scale. Harmondsworth has gone from a row of Nissen huts where no more than 30 people were detained to effectively two prisons with 1,000 detainees. To deny people the right to bail in the way in which the Bill proposes takes away hope, and increases the pressure and mental stress and the number of mental illnesses. At the same time, it brings about this level of abuse and inhumanity. I urge Members to be careful. This Bill will increase harm and be counter-productive. It will deny justice to the most vulnerable people in our society. It is unnecessary. All people want is the right for their case to be heard in the normal manner, as we would all expect it to be. They are crying out for justice.

[Mr Cox]

I intend to address new clause 15. It is an iron and inescapable consequence of new clause 15 that it would put this House and the Government in complete breach of their obligations under the European convention on human rights. My hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) has not sought to deny that, but seeks to suggest that whatever this House passes it would, none the less, be lawful as a question of domestic law—of course, in that respect he is right. The question is whether we should knowingly legislate in direct and conscious breach of our international law obligations. In my judgment that is not consistent with the dignity of this House. The right way to approach an international obligation with which we have a legitimate dispute is to take an axe to the root cause of the problem, and not continually to worry away like a dog gnawing at its own tail in frustration at the problem. The root of the problem lies in our adherence to the convention, and we cannot seek to avoid it or to play fast and loose with it in the way that new clause 15 does. In considering their votes in relation to new clause 15, I urge my hon. Friends to ask themselves whether it is consistent with the dignity of this House to legislate consciously and knowingly in contravention of obligations that we have solemnly undertaken.

If I thought that my hon. Friend’s clause would practically have a benefit that I could measure and see as rational and logical and likely to achieve the cause that he and I both support, which is a radical revision of our relationship with the convention, then I might indeed, even then, consider supporting it, but it will not work. It is doomed to fail, as inevitably it will when it reaches the Strasbourg Court. We cannot exclude from the operation of the entire convention, with the exception of two articles, the actions of the Secretary of State, who is a public authority. Nothing could be more clearly in direct contravention of our obligations than to say that she may act in violation of a human right. Of course, the courts in this country will declare it to be incompatible and the courts in Strasbourg, armed with that declaration of incompatibility, will unquestionably also declare it to be incompatible and in breach of our obligations.

What is the answer? The answer is that devised by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State: a careful, measured, balanced set of provisions that might just—although I have my reservations even about them—escape the scrutiny of the European Court of Human Rights. In doing so, they would achieve the end that each and every one of my colleagues on the Conservative Benches wishes to see achieved, which is that these criminals are sent home rather than finding a ready resort in the Court of Strasbourg as they would under the new clause proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton, under which the statute would be struck down and the individual cases would eventually have to be reviewed by the domestic courts.

My hon. Friend’s cause is noble and valiant, but doomed, and I urge my hon. Friends, while approving the motivation behind his new clause, to vote against it.

15:45

[Keith Vaz]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. and learned Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr Cox). I feel as though I am in the middle of an application for judicial review rather than discussing the politics of this country. I take a different view from him. When I came into the Chamber, I would have supported what he said. However, I was very impressed by the speech made by the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) and I will support new clause 15 if he moves it. It is compatible with what the Select Committee on Home Affairs has been saying for a number of years. We hold the Government to account every three months on the number of foreign prisoners that they manage to remove from this country and every month they produce figures for the Committee. If the new clause is a way of ensuring that that happens on a more regular basis, I will certainly support it.

As far as new clause 18 is concerned, I was also impressed by the speech made by the hon. Member for Brent Central (Sarah Teather), who has just as big an immigration case load as I have. The Home Secretary is right: previous Home Secretaries have sought to remove citizenship as a way of punishing those who have broken our laws. Jacqui Smith certainly sought to do that in the al-Jedda case. She lost when it went before the courts, and I understand that it is still before the courts as there is an appeal. In that case, the court determined that there was a hope that taking away British citizenship would mean that al-Jedda would be able to get Iraqi citizenship. The Secretary of State told the House today that she will take away citizenship, leaving people stateless without a way out of the country—[Interruption.] She did not tell the House how she would get a stateless person to leave the country. They would require a passport from another country or a travelling document and neither are on offer when citizenship has been taken away.

I am very impressed by how the Home Secretary delivers her speeches and statements in the House, but I thought there was a slight reluctance today to put her case. Yes, she spoke for an hour and a half and took a lot of interventions but I am concerned that the measure has not been thought through. If there was a way out and we knew how a stateless person would leave the country, I would certainly support her proposals in new clause 18, but this is a work in progress. There is no final determination on it.

I put to the Secretary of State the one case about which the Committee was concerned when she gave evidence to us on 16 December—that is, the case of Mohammed Ahmed Mohamed. He did not want to come back to the United Kingdom; he wanted to stay in Somaliland. In evidence to the Committee, both the Secretary of State and Charles Farr said that there was an obligation to bring him back to the United Kingdom. He was subject to a terrorism prevention and investigation measure, but he then put on his famous burqa and is now somewhere in the country.

I understand that the proposal would affect people in and outside the country and I know that it would affect only very few people. I take the Home Secretary at her word, but if this measure was passed today would it have affected the Mohammed Ahmed Mohamed case? Would he have been left in Somaliland, stateless? Would there have been no obligation, therefore, to bring him back? I will support the hon. Member for Brent Central in opposing new clause 18. I hope that by the time it gets to the other place there will be a plan that will finally determine what will happen to people who become stateless.

[Dr Huppert]

It is a pleasure as ever to follow the Chair of the Select Committee. I welcome the comments of the Home Secretary on my amendment 74 on ending child detention. The Government were right to do it a few years ago and they are now absolutely right to write it into legislation. It was profoundly wrong that under the previous Government thousands upon thousands of children were detained purely for immigration purposes—7,075 children in five years, and not just for a day or so but in one case as long as 190 days. That was a disgrace to this country and I am delighted that the Government ended it and have made sure that, whatever the next Government and the one after that, they will not be able to reintroduce it. It was a great shame that the Labour Front-Bench team refused to be as pleased as I was that this had been written into law, and I look forward to the legislation in the Lords reflecting Government policy. That is excellent.

I listened carefully to what the Home Secretary said on statelessness. I thank her for coming to talk to me and many of my colleagues about it; we had many questions. I have a lot of sympathy with the problem that she faces. There are instances in which citizenship should be taken away, and one is where fraud has taken place. I have no problem with someone who has acquired British citizenship by fraud not being allowed to keep it. That is easy. There are then issues about dual nationals—again, that is an easier case—and mono nationals who are in the UK. I share the concerns of the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) and many others about the problems of taking citizenship away from someone who is in this country. The Home Secretary hopes that they will be able to acquire citizenship of another country, and in some cases that may be possible, in which case they would not be stateless, but we cannot be sure.

It seems to me that the country that may be able to give someone citizenship may be less keen to do so when we have just ruled that they are a danger to this country. They would be far more reluctant in that situation. We would certainly be much less keen to grant citizenship to someone who had just been deprived of citizenship of another country. There is then the question of what happens to that person. The Home Office advice about people who are stateless is that they can have two and a half years leave to remain and can then apply for a further two and a half years, after which they get indefinite leave to remain. Are we saying that we will grant people indefinite leave to remain while they cannot leave the country? Do we really want people who are so dangerous, who have been involved in such awful gang behaviour, to be trapped inside this country? I find that deeply alarming.

I do not like the idea of creating two-tier citizenship. So while I respect what the Home Secretary is trying to do, I will not support the new clause; I will vote against it.

I will not talk in great detail about the other amendments that I and my hon. Friend the Member for Brent Central (Sarah Teather) tabled about the interests of children except to say that it is odd that, in a time of austerity when we are trying to save money, we still spend a huge amount detaining people for a long time who will not be able to get out of the country in the end. It is costing us millions and millions of pounds and it seems to me that this is a saving that the Home Office should be keen to make. I hope that it will.

In the last minutes remaining, let me turn to the new clause tabled by the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab), who spoke, as ever, extremely well. I agree with what the Home Secretary said about his new clause. It is clear that it would be illegal and would undermine what we are trying to achieve. She argued, and I see no reason to disagree, that it would weaken deportation. My hon. Friend spoke eloquently about it, saying that it was phenomenal how far it ran against the interests of children. It is not something that I or that Liberal Democrats can support. All of us will vote against the proposal. We will stand up for the Government’s original proposal on this issue whether or not other Government Members do. I hope that hon. Members such as the hon. and learned Member for Torridge and West Devon (Mr Cox) will persuade many of their colleagues to stand up for the Government on this issue and vote against the new clause. I hope that he will be joined by colleagues in the Labour party; I believe that they have now finally settled their position. I look forward to the new clause being comfortably defeated.

[Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

For two minutes only, I call Caroline Lucas.

[Caroline Lucas]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker.

We have heard thoughtful and powerful speeches from hon. Members on both sides of the House, and I want to link my views with those of the hon. Member for Brent Central (Sarah Teather), who made a compelling and well-informed case about the cruel, counter-productive and ill thought out nature of the Bill. I also associate myself with the views of the hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart), who spoke with his customary eloquence and reminded us that we should be under no illusion that this miserable Bill has very little to do with national security, but everything to do with out-toughing UKIP. No one would argue that our immigration system does not need fixing or that it is not blighted by inefficiency and error, yet rather than taking positive steps to fix the problems, the Government have brought forward proposals that will drive standards down, not up.

All the amendments in the group that I support would make the immigration system fairer and more accountable, such as amendment 1, which would delete clause 11. It is important that we support that amendment because the latest figures reveal that 32% of deportation decisions and 49% of entry-clearance applications were successfully appealed last year, yet the Government’s depressing response to that large margin of error is not to try to improve the quality of decision making, but to reduce the opportunities for challenge by slashing the scope for appeal.

Amendment 79 was tabled by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), who spoke movingly about it, and co-signed by the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn). The basis of clause 3 is utterly flawed, given that it sets out the idea that directions for removal within 14 days are somehow sufficient grounds to assume that bail should not be granted. On any common-sense analysis, there are factors that bluntly challenge that assumption. Plenty of people suffering from psychological or physical illnesses, or who have been bereaved or have caring responsibilities, should not be detained, but will not be able properly to challenge that detention.

I support amendment 60, which would retain the status quo on the use of force, not least because there are serious gaps in the training provided on the exercise of force, especially regarding the use of restraint techniques, by immigration officers and contractors. That is just one reason why it is completely unjustifiable that the Government are extending the use of force without any reference to the type of power exercised and the necessity of that force, and without parliamentary scrutiny.

I get the sense that you would like me to conclude my speech, Mr Deputy Speaker, so I shall oblige, but let me simply say that this is a miserable Bill and that I hope the House will take every opportunity to vote against it.

[Mrs May]

With the leave of the House, I shall respond to some of the points that have been raised. I do not agree with the manuscript amendments to new clause 18 that were tabled by the right hon. Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson). It is right for the Secretary of State, as someone who is democratically accountable, to take the initial decision, but I confirm that there will be a full right of appeal, so a judicial process will apply. I accept that the Opposition have concerns about the new clause, so I will be happy for the Minister for Immigration to sit down with the right hon. Gentleman and go through his concerns before the provision is considered by the other place. I hope that that will be of benefit to him and that it brings him some comfort.

I stress again that I strongly support the intention behind new clause 15, which was tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab). Everyone in the House wants to ensure that we can deport more foreign criminals, but it is absolutely clear that the provision, as drafted, is incompatible with the European convention on human rights. Crucially, it would weaken at least two aspects of the Bill, given that it does not deal with persistent offenders who have been subject to sentences of less than 12 months. I am also worried that it provides for an exception to apply when a child has not lived in the country for a significant time and does not have a relationship with their parent. Our Bill requires that a child must be British, that they must have lived in the country for a particular period of time, and that there must be a genuine and subsisting relationship with the child. Given its drafting, the new clause would cause problems in the sort of cases that the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) talked about.

There are also concerns that the drafting of the new clause would lead to a number of rule 39 cases. However, I recognise that there are issues—the right hon. Gentleman said this—with some of the language in the new clause, which we can consider and come back to. As drafted, I do not think that it is appropriate, but Conservative Ministers will abstain from the vote.

I said that I would mention rule 39, on which I intervened earlier. The reasons why I am concerned that the amendment would lead to fewer deportations are: first, because the language in the amendment in relation to children would lead to significant litigation; and secondly, because although article 8, under the current system, does not lead to rule 39 orders—

16:00

Debate interrupted (Programme Order, 22 October 2013).

The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), That the clause be read a Second time.

Question agreed to.

New clause 11 accordingly read a Second time, and added to the Bill.

The Deputy Speaker then put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of business to be concluded at that time (Standing Order No. 83E).

New Clause 12

Power to charge fees for attendance services in particular cases

‘(1) This section applies where a person exercises a function in connection with immigration or nationality in respect of which a fee is chargeable by virtue of a fees order (a “chargeable function”) in a particular case and—

(a) in doing so attends at a place outside the United Kingdom, and time, agreed with a person (“the client”), and

(b) does so at the request of the client.

It is immaterial whether or not the client is a person in respect of whom the chargeable function is exercised.

(2) In this section “attendance service” means the service described in subsection (1) except so far as it consists of the exercise of a chargeable function.

(3) The following are to be disregarded in determining whether a fee is chargeable in respect of a function by virtue of a fees order—

(a) any exception provided for by a fees order or fees regulations;

(b) any power so provided to waive or refund a fee.

(4) The person exercising the chargeable function may charge the client such fee for the purposes of recovering the costs of providing the attendance service as the person may determine.

(5) Fees paid to the Secretary of State by virtue of this section must be paid into the Consolidated Fund.

(6) A fee payable by virtue of this section may be recovered as a debt due to the Secretary of State.

(7) This section is without prejudice to—

(a) section 60;

(b) section 1 of the Consular Fees Act 1980 (fees for consular acts etc.);

(c) section 102 of the Finance (No. 2) Act 1987 (government fees and charges), or

(d) any other power to charge a fee.’.

New Clause 18

Deprivation of citizenship: conduct seriously prejudicial to vital interests of the UK

‘(1) In section 40 of the British Nationality Act 1981 (deprivation of citizenship), after subsection (4) insert—

“(4A) But that does not prevent the Secretary of State from making an order under subsection (2) to deprive a person of a citizenship status if—

(a) the citizenship status results from the person’s naturalisation, and

(b) the Secretary of State is satisfied that the deprivation is conducive to the public good because the person, while having that citizenship status, has conducted him or herself in a manner which is seriously prejudicial to the vital interests of the United Kingdom, any of the Islands, or any British overseas territory.”

(2) In deciding whether to make an order under subsection (2) of section 40 of the British Nationality Act 1981 in a case which falls within subsection (4A) of that Act, the Secretary of State may take account of the manner in which a person conducted him or herself before this section came into force.’.

Brought up.

[Dr Huppert]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. I am sorry, but both new clauses, which are Government new clauses, go together. If the hon. Gentleman wishes to vote against, he has to vote against them together.

Question put (single Question on new clauses moved by a Minister of the Crown), That new clauses 12 and 18 be added to the Bill.—(Mrs May.)

16:01

Division 198

Ayes: 297

---

Conservative: 261
Liberal Democrat: 33
Democratic Unionist Party: 2

Noes: 34

---

Labour: 19
Liberal Democrat: 6
Scottish National Party: 5
Plaid Cymru: 3
Social Democratic & Labour Party: 1
Green Party: 1

New clauses 12 and 18 added to the Bill.

New Clause 15

Exceptions to automatic deportation

‘(1) The UK Borders Act 2007 is amended as follows.

(2) In section 33 (Exceptions), in subsection (2)(a), for “Convention rights”, substitute “rights under Articles 2 or 3 of the Convention”.

(3) In section 33, after subsection (6A), insert—

“(6B) Exception 7 is where the Secretary of State thinks, taking into account all the circumstances of the case including the seriousness of the offence, that removal of the foreign criminal from the United Kingdom in pursuance of a deportation order would cause such manifest and overwhelming harm to his children that it overrides the public interest in removal.”.

(4) In section 38 (Interpretation)—

(a) after subsection (3), insert—

“(3A) In section 32, “Convention rights” has the same meaning as in the Human Rights Act 1998 (c. 42).”;

(b) omit paragraph (4)(b);

(c) after subsection (4) insert—

“(4A) In section 33, “rights under Articles 2 or 3 of the Convention” means Articles 2 or 3 of “the Convention” as defined in the Human Rights Act 1998 (c. 42).”.’.—(Mr Raab.)

Brought up.

Question put, That the clause be added to the Bill.

16:13

Division 199

Ayes: 97

---

Conservative: 85
Labour: 10
Democratic Unionist Party: 2

Noes: 241

---

Labour: 186
Liberal Democrat: 41
Scottish National Party: 5
Conservative: 4
Plaid Cymru: 3
Social Democratic & Labour Party: 1
Green Party: 1

Clause 11

Right of Appeal to First-tier Tribunal

Amendment proposed, 1, page 8, line 19, leave out leave clause 11.—(Yvette Cooper.)

Question put, That the amendment be made.

16:26

Division 200

Ayes: 210

---

Labour: 196
Scottish National Party: 5
Liberal Democrat: 4
Plaid Cymru: 3
Green Party: 1

Noes: 301

---

Conservative: 262
Liberal Democrat: 38

Clause 12

Place from which appeal may be brought or continued

Amendments made: 6, page 10, line 10, leave out from ‘appeal)’ to end of line 17 and insert

‘, the appeal must be brought from outside the United Kingdom if—

(a) the claim to which the appeal relates has been certified under section 94(1) or (7) (claim clearly unfounded or removal to safe third country), or

(b) paragraph 5(3)(a), 10(3), 15(3) or 19(b) of Schedule 3 to the Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, etc) Act 2004 (removal of asylum seeker to safe third country) applies.

Otherwise, the appeal must be brought from within the United Kingdom.’.

Amendment 7, page 10, line 19, leave out from ‘appeal)’ to end of line 33 and insert

‘where the claim to which the appeal relates was made while the appellant was in the United Kingdom, the appeal must be brought from outside the United Kingdom if—

(a) the claim to which the appeal relates has been certified under section 94(1) or (7) (claim clearly unfounded or removal to safe third country) or section 94B (certification of human rights claims made by persons liable to deportation), or

(b) paragraph 5(3)(b) or (4), 10(4), 15(4) or 19(c) of Schedule 3 to the Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, etc) Act 2004 (removal of asylum seeker to safe third country) applies.

Otherwise, the appeal must be brought from within the United Kingdom.

( ) In the case of an appeal under section 82(1)(b) (human rights claim appeal) where the claim to which the appeal relates was made while the appellant was outside the United Kingdom, the appeal must be brought from outside the United Kingdom.’.—(Mrs May.)

Clause 38

Appeals Against Penalty Notices

Amendment made: 77, page 30, line 35, at end insert—

‘() to provide for the prohibition in section35(1) not to apply in the case of an account to be operated (or an account that is operated) by or for a person or body of a specified description.

‘( ) An order under subsection (1) may amend a section so that it provides for a matter to be specified in a further order to be made by the Treasury.’.—(Mrs May.)

Clause 52

requirement as to giving notice of marriage or civil partnership

Amendments made: 23, page 42, line 22, leave out ‘(7)’ and insert ‘(9)’.

Amendment 24, page 42, line 38, leave out subsection (6) and insert—

‘( ) For paragraph 1(1) substitute—

1 (1A) Part 3 of this Schedule applies if—

(a) two people wish to register in Scotland as civil partners of each other, and

(b) one of them is subject to immigration control.

(1B) Part 4 of this Schedule applies if—

(a) two people wish to register in Northern Ireland as civil partners of each other, and

(b) one of them is subject to immigration control.”.’.

Amendment 25, page 42, line 41, leave out first ‘paragraph’ and insert ‘Part’.

Amendment 26, page 42, line 42, at end insert—

‘(8) For paragraph 8 substitute—

8 This Part of this Schedule applies as mentioned in paragraph 1(1A).”.

(9) For paragraph 12 substitute—

12 This Part of this Schedule applies as mentioned in paragraph 1(1B).”.’.—(Mrs May.)

Clause 60

fees

Amendments made: 45, page 46, line 37, leave out from beginning to ‘may’ in line 12 on page 47 and insert—

‘(3) A fees order—

(a) must specify how the fee in respect of the exercise of each specified function is to be calculated, and

(b) ’.

Amendment 46, page 47, line 14, at end insert—

‘(3A) For any specified fee, a fees order must provide for it to comprise one or more amounts each of which is—

(a) a fixed amount, or

(b) an amount calculated by reference to an hourly rate or other factor.

(3B) Where a fees order provides for a fee (or part of a fee) to be a fixed amount, it—

(a) must specify a maximum amount for the fee (or part), and

(b) may specify a minimum amount.

(3C) Where a fees order provides for a fee (or part of a fee) to be calculated as mentioned in subsection (3A)(b), it—

(a) must specify—

(i) how the fee (or part) is to be calculated, and

(ii) a maximum rate or other factor, and

(b) may specify a minimum rate or other factor.

(3D) For any specified fee, the following are to be set by the Secretary of State by regulations (“fees regulations”)—

(a) if the fee (or any part of it) is to be a fixed amount, that amount;

(b) if the fee (or any part of it) is to be calculated as mentioned in subsection (3A)(b), the hourly rate or other factor by reference to which it (or that part) is to be calculated.’

Amendment 47, page 47, line 15, leave out ‘The’ and insert ‘An’.

Amendment 48, page 47, line 15, leave out ‘in respect’ and insert

‘for a fee in respect of the exercise’.

Amendment 49, page 47, line 18, leave out ‘the function’ and insert

‘that amount, or rate or other factor’.

Amendment 50, page 47, line 19, leave out ‘specified for the function’ and insert ‘so specified’.

Amendment 51, page 47, line 32, at end insert—

This is subject to section 61(5).’.

Amendment 52, page 47, line 44, after ‘section’ insert

‘and sections 61 and (Power to charge fees for attendance services in particular cases)’.

Amendment 53, page 48, line 11, after ‘section’ insert

‘or section (Power to charge fees for attendance services in particular cases)’.—(Mrs May.)

Clause 64

orders and regulations

Amendment made: 27, page 49, line 34, at end insert ‘or (Supplementary provision)(4)’.—(Mrs May.)

New Schedule 1

‘Sham marriage and civil partnership: administrative regulations

Introduction

1 (1) This Schedule sets out the kinds of regulations which may be made by the Secretary of State under section (Supplementary provision)(2).

(2) In this Schedule—

“extension order” has the meaning given in section (Supplementary provision)(1); “proposed Scottish or Northern Ireland marriage or civil partnership” means a proposed marriage or civil partnership under the law of Scotland or Northern Ireland.

Notices

2 (1) The Secretary of State may make regulations which make provision about the giving of relevant notices.

(2) Regulations under this paragraph may, in particular, provide that a relevant notice given in accordance with the regulations is to be presumed to have been received by the person to whom it is given.

(3) In this paragraph “relevant notice” means—

(a) a notice, under any provision of the referral and investigation scheme, which relates to a proposed Scottish or Northern Ireland marriage or civil partnership, and

(b) any other notice relating to the referral of a proposed Scottish or Northern Ireland marriage or civil partnership to the Secretary of State for the purposes of the referral and investigation scheme,

(whether or not the notice falls to be given by virtue of provision made by an extension order).

Evidence

3 (1) The Secretary of State may make regulations about the supply of evidence in accordance with a relevant evidence provision.

(2) Regulations under this paragraph may, in particular, make provision about—

(a) the kind of evidence which is to be supplied;

(b) the form in which evidence is to be supplied;

(c) the manner in which evidence is to be supplied;

(d) the period within which evidence is to be supplied;

(e) the supply of further evidence;

(f) the sufficiency of evidence supplied;

(g) the consequences of failing to supply sufficient evidence in accordance with the regulations (including provision to secure that, in such a case, a particular decision is made or is to be treated as having been made);

(h) the retention or copying of evidence supplied.

(3) In this paragraph—

“evidence” includes a photograph or other image;

“relevant evidence provision” means provision (whether or not made by an extension order) about the supply of evidence in relation to a proposed Scottish or Northern Ireland marriage or civil partnership in a case where one or both of the parties is not a relevant national.

Change of address

4 (1) The Secretary of State may, by regulations, make provision about the giving to the Secretary of State of—

(a) notice of a relevant person’s usual address, if the person’s notified usual address changes;

(b) notice of a relevant person’s UK contact address, if the person’s notified usual address is not in the United Kingdom;

(c) notice of a relevant person’s UK contact address, if the person’s notified UK contact address changes;

(d) evidence of any address notified in accordance with regulations under paragraph (a), (b) or (c).

(2) Regulations under this paragraph may, in particular, make—

(a) provision imposing a requirement on a person;

(b) provision about the rejection of information or evidence which there are reasonable grounds to suspect to be false.

(3) Regulations under sub-paragraph (1)(d) may, in particular, make any provision of the kind that may be made under paragraph 3(2).

(4) In this paragraph—

“notified”, in relation to an address of a relevant person, means notified (whether to the Secretary of State or another person) in connection with the proposed Scottish or Northern Ireland marriage or civil partnership (including any such address notified in accordance with provision made by an extension order or regulations made under this paragraph);

“relevant person” means a person who is a party to a proposed Scottish or Northern Ireland marriage or civil partnership in a case where that person or the other party is not a relevant national (or both of them are not relevant nationals);

“UK contact address” means an address in the United Kingdom at which a person can be contacted by post.

Referral

5 (1) The Secretary of State may make regulations requiring a person to act in accordance with the regulations when complying with a duty of referral.

(2) The regulations may, in particular, make provision about—

(a) the form, manner or timing of the referral;

(b) information, photographs or evidence — or copies of any of those things — to be included with the referral.

(3) The Secretary of State may make regulations requiring a person who refers a proposed marriage or civil partnership in accordance with a duty of referral to give the parties to the proposed marriage information prescribed in the regulations about—

(a) the effects of the referral;

(b) any requirements under regulations under paragraph 4 to notify the Secretary of State of changes of address.

(4) In this paragraph—

“duty of referral” means a duty (whether or not contained in provision made by an extension order) to refer a proposed Scottish or Northern Ireland marriage or civil partnership to the Secretary of State for the purposes of the referral and investigation scheme;

“referral” means the referral of a proposed Scottish or Northern Ireland marriage or civil partnership under a duty of referral.

Applications for shortening of waiting period

6 (1) The Secretary of State may make regulations about the making, and granting, of applications for the shortening of a waiting period in cases where a proposed Scottish or Northern Ireland marriage or civil partnership is referred to the Secretary of State in accordance with a duty of referral.

(2) Regulations may be made under this paragraph—

(a) whether the application falls to be made by virtue of provision made by an extension order or otherwise;

(b) whether the application falls to be made to the Secretary of State or another person.

(3) In this paragraph—

“duty of referral” has the same meaning as in paragraph 5;

“waiting period”, in relation to a proposed Scottish or Northern Ireland marriage or civil partnership, means a period during which it is not possible for the marriage to be solemnized or civil partnership to be formed (but which falls after notice of the proposed marriage or civil partnership has been given for the purposes of enabling it to be solemnized or formed in due course).’.—(Mrs May.)

Brought up, and added to the Bill.

Schedule 3

Excluded residential tenancy agreements

Amendments made: 17, page 56, line 5, after ‘Part’ insert ‘1 or’.

Amendment 18, page 56, line 6, after ‘Ireland’ insert ‘—

(i) Chapter 4 of Part 2 of the Housing (Northern Ireland) Order 1981 (S.I. 1981/156 (N.I. 3)), or

(ii) ’.

Amendment 19, page 56, leave out lines 11 to 21 and insert—

1A (1) This paragraph applies for the purposes of paragraph 1.

(2) An allocation of housing accommodation by a local housing authority in England to a person who is already—

(a) a secure or introductory tenant, or

(b) an assured tenant of housing accommodation held by a private registered provider of social housing or a registered social landlord,

is to be treated as an allocation of housing accommodation by virtue of Part 6 of the Housing Act 1996 (and accordingly section 159(4A) of that Act is to be ignored).

(3) An allocation of housing accommodation that falls within a case specified in, or prescribed under, section 160 of the Housing Act 1996 (cases where provisions about allocation under Part 6 of that Act do not apply) is to be treated as an allocation of housing accommodation by virtue of Part 6 of that Act (and accordingly that section is to be ignored).

(4) An allocation of housing accommodation by virtue of Part 1 of the Housing (Scotland) Act 1987 is to be treated as provided by virtue of a relevant provision only if it is provided by a local authority within the meaning of that Act (or in pursuance of arrangements made under or for the purposes of that Part with a local authority).

(5) Accommodation provided to a person in Northern Ireland by a registered housing association is to be treated as provided to the person by virtue of a relevant provision.

(6) Terms used in sub-paragraphs (2) and (3) have the same meanings as in Part 6 of the Housing Act 1996.

(7) In sub-paragraph (5) “registered housing association” means a housing association, within the meaning of Part 2 of the Housing (Northern Ireland) Order 1992 (S.I. 1992/1725 (N.I. 15)), that is registered in the register of housing associations maintained under Article 14 of that Order.’.

Amendment 20, page 57, line 22, after ‘hostel’ insert ‘or refuge’.

Amendment 21, page 57, line 36, at end insert—

‘( ) “Refuge” means a building which satisfies the second condition in sub-paragraph (4) and is used wholly or mainly for providing accommodation to persons who have been subject to any incident, or pattern of incidents, of—

(a) controlling, coercive or threatening behaviour,

(b) physical violence,

(c) abuse of any other description (whether physical or mental in nature), or

(d) threats of any such violence or abuse.’.

Amendment 22, page 59, line 44, at end insert—

‘( ) “Building” includes a part of a building.’.—(Mrs May.)

Schedule 4

referral of proposed marriages and civil partnerships in england and wales

Amendments made: 28, page 61, leave out line 9.

Amendment 29, page 61, leave out line 12.

Amendment 30, page 61, line 22, at end insert—

‘( ) But this section does not apply if section 39A applies to the proposed marriage.’.

Amendment 31, page 61, line 33, leave out from beginning to end of line 15 on page 62 and insert—

‘(6) If the notice contains the statement referred to in the first column of an entry in this table, the notice must be accompanied by the information and photographs referred to in the second column of that entry (insofar as that entry is applicable to the parties to the proposed marriage)—

If the notice includes this statement...	...the notice must be accompanied by...
Statement A (in respect of one or both of the parties to the proposed marriage)	For each party in respect of whom statement A is made, details of the particular immigration status which that party has
Statement B (in respect of one or both of the parties to the proposed marriage)	1. For each party, a specified photograph of that party 2. For each party in respect of whom statement B is made, details of the relevant visa which that party has
Statement C (in respect of one or both of the parties to the proposed marriage)	1. For each party, a specified photograph of that party 2. For each party, the usual address of that party 3. For each party whose usual address is outside the United Kingdom, an address in the United Kingdom at which that party can be contacted by post 4. For each party who has previously used any name or names other than the person’s name stated in the notice in accordance with section 27(3), a statement of the other name or names 5. For each party who currently uses, or has previously used, an alias or aliases, a statement of the alias or aliases

(6A) If the notice contains more than one of statements A, B and C, subsection (6) must be complied with in relation to each of those statements; but where the notice contains statements B and C, subsection (6) does not require the notice to be accompanied by more than one specified photograph of each party.’.

Amendment 32, page 62, line 27, leave out sub-paragraph (8).

Amendment 33, page 64, line 11, leave out from beginning to ‘“specified’ in line 21 and insert—

(a) photographs and addresses of the kinds referred to in paragraphs 1 and 2 in the relevant entry in section 27E(6);

(b) as respects the usual address of each party that is provided in accordance with paragraph (a), specified evidence that the address provided is that party’s usual address; and

(c) addresses, names and aliases of the kinds referred to in paragraphs 3 to 5 in the relevant entry in section 27E(6) (insofar as those paragraphs are applicable to the parties to the proposed marriage).

‘(7) In this section—

“relevant entry in section 27E(6)” means the second column of the last entry in the table in section 27E(6);’.

Amendment 34, page 69, leave out lines 22 and 23.

Amendment 35, page 70, line 33, after ‘application’ insert ‘to the applicant and’.

Amendment 36, page 72, line 34, at end insert—

‘One party resident in Scotland

In section 37 (one party resident in Scotland), in subsection (1)(b), for the words from “with” to “Act” (in the first place) insert “with section 27 and the other provisions of this Act”.

Proof of certain matters not necessary to validity of marriages

In section 48 (proof of certain matters not necessary to validity of marriages), in subsection (1)—

(a) omit the word “or” at the end of paragraph (e) (inserted by paragraph 14(c) of Schedule 7 to the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013);

(b) at the end of paragraph (ea) (inserted by that provision of the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013) insert “or

(eb) that, in the case of a marriage to which Schedule 3A applied, any of the events listed in paragraph 2(2) to (6) of that Schedule occurred.”.’.

Amendment 37, page 73, line 28, at end insert—

‘( ) But this section does not apply if Schedule 3 applies to the proposed civil partnership.’.

Amendment 38, page 74, leave out lines 1 to 25 and insert—

‘(6) If the notice contains the statement referred to in the first column of an entry in this table, the notice must be accompanied by the information and photographs referred to in the second column of that entry (insofar as that entry is applicable to the parties to the proposed civil partnership)—

If the notice includes this statement...	...the notice must be accompanied by...
Statement A (in respect of one or both of the parties to the proposed civil partnership)	For each party in respect of whom statement A is made, details of the particular immigration status which that party has
Statement B (in respect of one or both of the parties to the proposed civil partnership)	1. For each party, a specified photograph of that party 2. For each party in respect of whom statement B is made, details of the relevant visa which that party has
Statement C (in respect of one or both of the parties to the proposed civil partnership)	1. For each party, a specified photograph of that party 2. For each party, the usual address of that party 3. For each party whose usual address is outside the United Kingdom, an address in the United Kingdom at which that party can be contacted by post 4. For each party who has previously used any name or names other than the person’s name stated in the notice of proposed civil partnership in accordance with regulations under section 8(2), a statement of the other name or names 5. For each party who currently uses, or has previously used, an alias or aliases, a statement of the alias or aliases

(6A) If the notice contains more than one of statements A, B and C, subsection (6) must be complied with in relation to each of those statements; but where the notice contains statements B and C, subsection (6) does not require the notice to be accompanied by more than one specified photograph of each party.’.

Amendment 39, page 74, line 37, leave out sub-paragraph (8).

Amendment 40, page 76, line 7, leave out from beginning to ‘“specified’ in line 18 and insert—

(a) photographs and addresses of the kinds referred to in paragraphs 1 and 2 in the relevant entry in section 8A(6);

(b) as respects the usual address of each party that is provided in accordance with paragraph (a), specified evidence that the address provided is that party’s usual address; and

(c) addresses, names and aliases of the kinds referred to in paragraphs 3 to 5 in the relevant entry in section 8A(6) (insofar as those paragraphs are applicable to the parties to the proposed civil partnership).

‘(7) In this section—

“relevant entry in section 8A(6)” means the second column of the last entry in the table in section 8A(6);’.

Amendment 41, page 78, line 34, at end insert—

‘(a) the applicant,’.

Amendment 42, page 80, line 24, leave out ‘proposed’ and insert ‘referred’.

Amendment 43, page 84, line 6, at end insert—

‘Proof of certain matters not necessary to validity of civil partnership

In section 52 (proof of certain matters not necessary to validity of civil partnership), in subsection (1)—

(a) omit the word “or” at the end of paragraph (a);

(b) at the end of paragraph (aa) insert “or

(ab) that, in the case of a civil partnership to which Schedule 3A applied, any of the events listed in paragraph 2(2) to (6) of that Schedule occurred.”.’.—(Mrs May.)

Schedule 5

information

Amendment made: 44, page 85, line 41, leave out sub-paragraph (2).—(Mrs May.)

Schedule 8

transitional and consequential provision

Amendments made: 8, page 100, line 6, at end insert—

In Schedule 2 (administrative provisions as to control on entry etc), in paragraph 2A(9), for “(immigration and asylum appeals)” substitute “(appeals in respect of protection and human rights claims)”.

In Schedule 3 (supplementary provisions as to deportation), in paragraph 3, for the words from “of the kind” to “order)” substitute “that relates to a deportation order”.’.

Amendment 9, page 100, line 13, leave out paragraph 15 and insert—

The Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 is amended as follows.

Section 23 (monitoring refusals of entry clearance) is repealed.

(1) Section 141 (fingerprinting) is amended as follows.

(2) In subsection (7)—

(a) for paragraph (c) substitute—

“(c) any person (“C”) in respect of whom the Secretary of State has decided—

(i) to make a deportation order, or

(ii) that section 32(5) of the UK Borders Act 2007 (automatic deportation of foreign criminals) applies;

(ca) any person (“CA”) who requires leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom but does not have it;”;

(b) in paragraph (f), for the words from “paragraph (c)” to the end substitute “paragraph (c)(ii)”.

(3) In subsection (8), for paragraph (c) substitute—

“(c) for C, when he is notified of the decision mentioned in subsection (7)(c);

(ca) for CA, when he becomes a person to whom this section applies;”.

(4) In subsection (9)—

(a) in paragraph (b), after “C” insert “, CA”;

(b) in paragraph (c)(i) for “relevant immigration decision” substitute “decision mentioned in subsection (7)(c)”;

(c) after paragraph (c) insert—

“(ca) for CA, when he no longer requires leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom;”;

(5) Omit subsection (16).’.

Amendment 10, page 103, line 1, at end insert—

( ) in the definition of “human rights claim”—

(i) after “Kingdom” insert “or to refuse him entry into the United Kingdom”;

(ii) omit “as being incompatible with his Convention rights”;’.

Amendment 11, page 104, line 16, at end insert—

‘Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, etc) Act 2004 (c. 19)

(1) Schedule 3 to the Asylum and Immigration (Treatment of Claimants, etc) Act 2004 (removal of asylum seeker to safe third country) is amended as follows.

(2) In paragraph 1, at the end insert—

“(3) Section 92 of the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 makes further provision about the place from which an appeal relating to an asylum or human rights claim may be brought or continued.”

(3) In paragraph 5—

(a) omit sub-paragraph (2);

(b) in sub-paragraph (3), for the words from “by virtue of” to “rights)” substitute “from within the United Kingdom”;

(c) in sub-paragraph (4), for “by virtue of section 92(4)(a) of that Act” substitute “from within the United Kingdom”.

(4) In paragraph 10—

(a) omit sub-paragraph (2);

(b) in sub-paragraph (3), for the words from “by virtue of” to “rights)” substitute “from within the United Kingdom”;

(c) in sub-paragraph (4), for “by virtue of section 92(4)(a) of that Act” substitute “from within the United Kingdom”.

(5) In paragraph 15—

(a) omit sub-paragraph (2);

(b) in sub-paragraph (3), for the words from “by virtue of” to “rights)” substitute “from within the United Kingdom”;

(c) in sub-paragraph (4), for “by virtue of section 92(4)(a) of that Act” substitute “from within the United Kingdom”.

(6) In paragraph 19—

(a) omit paragraph (a);

(b) in paragraph (b), for the words from “by virtue of” to “rights)” substitute “from within the United Kingdom”;

(c) in paragraph (c), for “by virtue of section 92(4)(a) of that Act” substitute “from within the United Kingdom”.’

Amendment 12, page 104, line 18, at end insert—

‘( ) In section 12(3) (new definition of human rights claims), in paragraph (a) of the definition of “human rights claim”—

(a) after “Kingdom” insert “or to refuse him entry into the United Kingdom”;

(b) omit “as being incompatible with his Convention rights”.’.

Amendment 13, page 104, line 29, at end insert—

‘UK Borders Act 2007 (c. 30)

In section 17 of the UK Borders Act 2007 (support for failed asylum-seekers), in subsection (2)—

(a) in paragraph (a), omit “against an immigration decision”;

(b) in paragraph (b), omit “against an immigration decision”.’.

Amendment 14, page 104, line 42, at end insert—

‘( ) In section 2B (appeal to SIAC against deprivation of citizenship), omit the words from “(and” to the end.’.

Amendment 15, page 105, line 15, column 2, at beginning insert—

Section 15(2), (3) and (5).

Amendment 16, page 105, line 27, at end insert—

Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009

Section 51(3).

54, page 109, line 1, leave out from beginning to end of line 5.—(Mrs May.)

Ordered,

That paragraph 44 of Schedule 8 be transferred to line 11 on page 100.—[Mrs May.]

Third Reading

16:39

[Mrs May]

I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.

We have had a considerable and lively discussion today. I thank all who have contributed to the Bill during its various stages so far, particularly those who steered it through the Committee stage: the Minister for Immigration, my hon. Friend the Member for Forest of Dean (Mr Harper), and the Minister for Crime Prevention, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker). Indeed, I am grateful for the hard work that was done by all members of the Committee.

Let me remind the House why the Bill is so necessary. It will bring clarity, fairness and integrity to the immigration system, and will address long-standing problems that have prevented the effective operation of immigration controls. It will do that by ensuring that those who are refused permission to stay are required to leave the country, and know that they must do so; by streamlining the appeals system to reduce the scope for playing the system; by ensuring that foreign criminals can be deported first and appeal afterwards, unless there is a real risk of serious irreversible harm; and by ensuring that courts must have regard to the will of Parliament when considering article 8 in immigration cases.

The Bill will make it more difficult for illegal migrants to live in the United Kingdom by denying access to the tools of everyday life. That will include giving landlords a duty to check the immigration status of tenants and imposing penalties on rogue landlords, and denying illegal migrants access to bank accounts and driving licences. We will also strengthen the enforcement of penalties for employers of illegal workers. The Bill reinforces controls to counter sham marriages and sham civil partnerships, conferring new powers and duties, and it will ensure that temporary legal migrants contribute to our national health service.

[Ms Abbott]

I accept the Home Secretary’s wish to clean up the system and discourage people from “playing” it—I deal with thousands of immigration cases every month—but has she given no thought to the effect that her measures that are designed to crack down on illegal immigrants could have on people who are British nationals, but appear as if they might be immigrants?

[Mrs May]

We have given a great deal of thought to the way in which our measures will operate. The changes that we propose will strengthen our ability to deal with those who are here illegally. We are, for example, strengthening our ability to enforce penalties for those who employ illegal workers. The system enabling employers to determine whether the workers whom they employ are here legally or not is in place, is well known and is running properly, and the same will apply in the other areas that we are discussing.

The Bill will also help to discharge the Government’s commitment to introduce exit checks on people leaving the UK in order to tackle overstaying and prevent people from fleeing British justice.

Let me now go into a little more detail, although not too much, because I know that others wish to speak. The Bill substantially reforms the removals system, and ensures that illegal migrants who have no right to be in the UK can be returned to their own countries more quickly. We inherited a complex system involving multiple stages before an individual can be removed, allowing numerous challenges to be issued during the process. The Bill will ensure that we adopt a system whereby only one decision is made. Individuals will be informed of that decision, and if the decision is that they can no longer stay in the UK, immigration enforcement officials will be allowed to remove them if they do not leave of their own accord. The Bill also reforms the system whereby illegal migrants held in detention centres are allowed to apply for bail, and it gives immigration officers stronger powers so that they can establish the identity of illegal immigrants by checking fingerprints and searching for passports.

The current appeals system is also very complex. There are 17 different immigration decisions that attract rights of appeal, but the Bill will cut that number to four, which I think will prevent abuse of the appeal process. It will also ensure that appeals address only fundamental rights. It will make it easier to deport foreign criminals by requiring individuals to appeal from abroad after deportation, unless they face the prospect of serious harm.

[Sarah Teather]

I do not intend to make a speech, because I know that others wish to speak, but an issue that has not been mentioned at all today is health. The organisation Doctors of the World, whose clinic I visited last week, is very worried about the Bill’s impact on those who do not have residence status. Such people are often extremely vulnerable, and many have been trafficked.

[Mrs May]

The hon. Lady has raised a number of concerns about aspects of the Bill, and has indicated her objection to it overall. A number of the changes that we are making relate to migrants’ access to services, but I think that the issues to which she has just referred are within the purview of the Department of Health, and are therefore not relevant to the Bill.

We are strengthening our ability to deal with cases in which it has not been possible to deport foreign criminals because they have had recourse to an argument relating to article 8. That is a qualified right under the European convention, and we are now putting it into primary legislation. We expect the courts to respond appropriately.

We will require migrants who will be here temporarily to pay a surcharge so that they contribute to the NHS. I think that most hard-working people would agree that that is appropriate. We have improved our ability to deal with sham marriages.

The deprivation of citizenship is an important new power. As I indicated to the shadow Minister for Immigration, we are happy to discuss with him the full impact of that power. The Minister for Immigration will have those discussions with him. What we are doing meets our international obligations and will strengthen our ability to deal with those who wish to act in a way that is seriously prejudicial to the UK.

The Government are getting to grips with immigration. Net migration is down by nearly a third since its peak in 2010. Net migration from outside the EU is down to 140,000 and is at its lowest level since 1998. The reduction is being driven by cuts in the number of people coming to this country. In 2013, there were nearly 100,000 fewer people immigrating to the UK than in 2010.

We are making good progress with our reforms. We are transforming the immigration and border system. We have abolished the UK Border Agency, established two new operational commands, tightened immigration routes where abuse was rife, strengthened the system of granting students permission to enter or stay in the UK, reformed the family visa system, and set an annual limit on the number of non-EU economic migrants who are admitted to the UK. All those reforms are working well and are doing much to tackle the chaotic and dysfunctional system that we inherited from the previous Government, but we need to go further.

The Bill will build on our achievements. It will ensure that immigration serves our economic interests and that our system commands the respect of the British public, who need and deserve an immigration system that is fair, reasonable and measured. I commend the Bill to the House.

16:46

[Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)]

I, too, thank those who sat on the Committee and all those who have contributed throughout the Bill’s passage. I thank Opposition Members who have been involved, including my hon. Friend the Member for Warrington North (Helen Jones) and especially my right hon. Friend the Member for Delyn (Mr Hanson), who has worked tirelessly in responding to the Government’s proposals at the various stages.

The Immigration Bill has been a complete car crash for the Home Secretary. She and the Prime Minister launched it as their flagship Bill. It was the pride and joy of their legislative programme, and yet they have been hiding it away for months. It has been nowhere to be seen. They would not bring it back because they were so scared of their own Back Benchers.

[Pete Wishart]

Will the right hon. Lady give way?

[Yvette Cooper]

I am going to make some progress, because time is very tight.

The Home Secretary has become terrified of her own legislation. Even though Parliament has had hardly any business, she has kept the Bill away from the House and has then tried to rush it through in four hours today. We have had just four hours to debate a series of important amendments. On our proposals to tackle the impact of immigration on jobs and growth, and to take stronger action on the minimum wage and agencies that exploit immigration, there has been no debate today. On the proposals of Tory Back Benchers on Bulgaria and Romania, there has been no debate today. On the workability of the housing proposals, there has been no debate today. On the fairness of the appeal proposals, there has been no debate today. A series of amendments has been tabled by Members from all parts of the House, but none of them has been debated today.

What have we had instead? The Home Secretary pulled out of her hat, at the last minute, a new power on citizenship, with no consultation and no scrutiny, in a desperate attempt to distract her own party, but it failed. She then stood up for an hour and a half—I have to admire her resilience—to kill time, without even knowing what her position was on the key new clause, which was tabled by the hon. Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab).

[Mrs May]

As the right hon. Lady was not here for the whole debate on Report, perhaps I should enlighten her on what happened. Yes, I did speak for an hour and a half, but I took a large number of interventions, including many from Labour Members.

[Yvette Cooper]

The right hon. Lady did indeed take a considerable number of interventions. However, she informed my office yesterday that she would not be responding on Report, but only on Third Reading. She decided at the last minute that she would come to the House to respond to the amendments.

I have a lot of sympathy with the hon. Member for Esher and Walton, who tabled his new clause today. He is right to say that the Government are not doing enough to deport foreign criminals: the number being deported has dropped by 13% during the past three years. The Home Secretary should be doing more, and we think that there are more things the Government could do that would be legal and workable. That is the key. The problem today is that the Home Secretary and Downing street have told us themselves that the hon. Gentleman’s new clause is illegal and could make it harder to deport foreign criminals, not easier.

The Home Secretary told the House that she disagreed with the hon. Gentleman’s new clause, so how on earth could she simply sit on her hands and not take a view on it when it came to the vote? How on earth could she tell the Prime Minister:

“I propose that the Government does not support this amendment because it would be incompatible with the ECHR and counter-productive”,

and then—as Home Secretary, responsible for upholding law and order in Britain—just sit there, scared of her own Back Benchers, and fail to vote against it? There is no precedent for Ministers simply abstaining in this way. This is not a free vote, in which Members are able to make their own decision. The Government simply thought that they would not take a view on the new clause, despite the Home Secretary having told the House that she was opposed to it.

The Home Secretary has lost control of her own policy. She told the Prime Minister last year that the hon. Member for Esher and Walton’s proposal would

“significantly undermine our ability to deport foreign criminals.”

She also told him that, under the provision, she would be unable to deport 4,000 criminals a year and would have to release “significant numbers” on bail while she went through the necessary legal proceedings, yet she was too scared to vote against it. We know that she opposed the new clause. If she had supported it, she could have voted for it and got it through, but she did not do so. She sat on her hands because she was scared.

What kind of Home Secretary is that? What kind of Government is this? The Home Secretary needs to get her act together.

The Bill will not sort out Britain’s immigration problems. There are some sensible measures in it, but there is an awful lot missing. Maybe the Home Secretary can get it sorted out in the Lords, but she should start acting in the interests of this country, rather than simply in the interests of the Conservative party, which has scared her away from making the right decision today.

16:52

[Nicholas Soames]

I think that that was the worst Third Reading speech I have ever heard from a shadow Home Secretary. To describe my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary as being afraid was truly incredible.

I should like to start by putting the Bill in its proper context. Under the last Government, the level of migration was unprecedented and hugely unpopular with the public, and it has led to an unacceptably rapidly growing population. This Government have carried out sensible reforms for work, study and family migration in the face of fierce lobbying from vested interests, and they have done that with the wholehearted support of the Conservative party and the coalition. On that they should be congratulated. The Immigration Bill builds on that good work. Whatever the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) says, there is no doubt that it represents a big step forward and deals with major issues.

Any well-functioning immigration system needs to tackle illegal immigration. Given the nature of the system, however, we simply do not know how many illegal immigrants are here. Let me give the House an example. We issue more than 1.5 million visit visas each year, but we do not know how many of those people leave at the end of their visit. If just 1% overstay, that will mean that an additional 15,000 people remain here illegally every year.

With respect to accessing public services, the outstanding business of the first importance relates to controlling access to the national health service. Although the Bill is important and achieves a great deal, there remains the first-order business of dealing with that access. I would be pleased if the Government were to have another look at the question of whether people should gain access to the NHS only on production of an identity card to show that they were entitled to use the services. Having said that, the Bill represents a welcome step and it will go a long way towards building a robust immigration system. I commend it to the House.

16:54

[Mrs Mary Glindon (North Tyneside) (Lab)]

I want to address an issue that has not been covered today—I had hoped to address it when we discussed the new clauses tabled by my party. It is the issue of migrant workers who are legitimately in this country. A number of them were discovered at the former Swan Hunter site at Wallsend. They were living there in unsafe conditions. I pursued the issue and discovered that a local engineering company had hired them through an employment agency in Romania. It was a legitimate situation, because, under the law, temporary workers are allowed to work for a number of months in this country. However, what I did unearth, via the UK Border Agency, was that some of those workers were on permanent contracts.

I inquired at the jobcentre whether the jobs, which the company maintained they could not fill with local workers, could have been taken by welders. Everyone knows that the north-east, especially an area such as mine, is awash with people who have welding skills and who were employed in the former heavy industries. The jobcentre confirmed that there were in fact more than enough unemployed workers who could take the jobs. Not only were these east European workers living in unsafe conditions, but they were probably being paid less than the minimum wage and the going rate for that job.

Subsequently, the building in which the workers were living was brought up to scratch. After speaking to the employment agency in Romania about the workers on permanent contracts who should not have been here, the UK Border Agency allowed it to change the contracts to temporary contracts. Although people in Wallsend felt sorry for those workers who were living in such bad conditions, they were upset that they were coming over and being paid less for the work than skilled people in the area. I am sorry that we were not able to discuss those issues further or the new clauses proposed by those on the Labour Front Bench.

16:57

[Dr Huppert]

It has been an unusual debate. I am pleased that we have avoided too many of the more worrying amendments that might have crept in. We have managed not to have proposals that would contravene the European convention on human rights. I was disappointed that Conservative Ministers were not prepared to back their own Government legislation and the convention. I am proud that the Liberal Democrats stood up for Government policy in this area.

We did have a debate about citizenship deprivation. It is a great shame that the shadow Home Secretary and the vast majority of her colleagues simply sat on their hands on this important issue. I pay tribute to those Labour Members who rebelled with many of us to oppose that.

It is a shame that we did not have chance to discuss many other amendments. I wanted to explore further issues to do with students, the NHS charges and asylum support and helping some of the most destitute in our country. It is a great shame that we did not manage to get there.

I do not think that this Bill is the important thing about immigration. There is the rhetoric. The way that both the Conservatives and Labour seem to be following the UK Independence party drive is incredibly damaging in this country. We see that too much. That is not what we should have: we should be proud of the benefits of immigration. The important point is the Home Office and the Border Agency, as was, and their competence in making decisions promptly and correctly. The Minister has done some very good work on that but until it is sorted the public will not have the assurance they need. We need our exit checks and we need decisions to be made promptly and fairly so that everybody knows where they are.

16:58

[Jeremy Corbyn]

I will vote against the Bill on Third Reading for a large number of reasons. We have ordained that the Home Secretary will have executive power to take away citizenship in the future and to create a generation of stateless people. The handing over of that power is, I think, a very dangerous thing for any Parliament to do.

We have a number of other serious concerns about the Bill, such as those covered in the points raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) about the forced removal of people; the death of Jimmy Mubenga, which was mentioned by the hon. Member for Brent Central (Sarah Teather); the use of the detention system; the denial of health care access; the problems of forcing landlords to become agents of the Home Office; and the reality of life for those people who have legitimately sought asylum in Britain and are starving on the streets of our cities because we do not have a system in place to give them proper support. The Bill does not answer any of those problems. It is based on prejudice and headline chasing and has nothing to do with the real needs of people who are desperately seeking support, help and assistance rather than the cold behaviour shown by the Government today.

16:59

[Priti Patel (Witham) (Con)]

I pay tribute to the Home Secretary and my hon. Friend the Minister for Immigration for introducing the Bill and introducing important and positive measures to—

17:00

Debate interrupted (Programme Order, 22 October).

The Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair (Standing Order No. 83E), That the Bill be now read the Third time.

17:00

Division 201

Ayes: 295

---

Conservative: 255
Liberal Democrat: 38
Democratic Unionist Party: 1

Noes: 16

---

Labour: 5
Scottish National Party: 5
Liberal Democrat: 3
Plaid Cymru: 2
Green Party: 1

Bill read the Third time and passed.

Business without Debate

Thursday 30th January 2014 Commons Chamber

Delegated Legislation

Motion made, and Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 118(6)),

Rating and Valuation

That the Local Government Finance Act 1988 (Non-Domestic Rating Multipliers) (England) Order 2014 (S.I., 2014, No. 2), dated 6 January 2014, a copy of which was laid before this House on 7 January, be approved.—(Mr Swayne.)

Question agreed to.

Funeral Expenses (Prisoners)

Thursday 30th January 2014 Commons Chamber

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Mr Swayne.)

17:11

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

I do not intend to detain the House for long, but I am pleased to have the opportunity to raise an important and sensitive issue of which I have become aware due to a case in my constituency. In dealing with that case, it appears that I have stumbled on a gap, at the very least, in how prisoners who are transferred from England to Scotland are treated with regard to funeral expenses. The process of trying to secure answers from the Scottish and English authorities has been less than satisfactory. I understand that the Minister’s responsibilities cover the English authorities, not the Scottish authorities, so I do not expect him to respond on behalf of the Scottish authorities, but I hope that he can clarify some issues that are relevant to the English authorities, which was why I ensured that his private office was given a précis of the case before the debate.

Before I outline the case, it is important that I point out that my concern is for my constituent, who is a cousin of the deceased prisoner. I make no judgment or comment about the prisoner’s offence or sentence because they are immaterial to the points that I shall raise.

My constituent, Mrs Margaret Coyle, had a cousin, James Campbell, who was convicted and given a custodial sentence for an offence committed in England. He began his sentence in an English prison. Part of the way through his sentence, his elderly mother was close to death, and following contact by my constituent, a restricted transfer was arranged whereby the remainder of his sentence could be served in a Scottish prison—first in Kilmarnock prison and later in Greenock prison. The process was instigated by my constituent out of compassion for her cousin’s elderly mother and a desire that they should be in contact before the end of her life. Because my constituent was dealing with the process, she became her cousin’s next of kin.

Later, towards the end of his sentence, my constituent’s cousin developed cancer and became seriously ill. At the point my constituent contacted the Scottish Prison Service to seek guidance on whether her cousin could secure compassionate release. She was informed that although he was serving his sentence in Scotland, because he was on a restricted transfer he was effectively an English prisoner and the matter should therefore be taken up with the English authorities. She understood that and accepted it.

My constituent’s cousin died while still serving his sentence. He had been provided with a handbook by the English Prison Service. Its section on funeral arrangements makes it clear that:

“Prisons must offer to pay a contribution towards reasonable funeral expenses of up to £3,000. The only exceptions where the family has a pre-paid funeral plan or is entitled to claim a grant from other government departments”.

My constituent had discussed the matter with her cousin prior to his death. It meant, they thought, she would be entitled to call upon that support because he was an English prisoner. She was well aware that she would be unable to afford the funeral expense and knew that her cousin was sadly likely to die before the end of his sentence. She was also advised by a social worker she had been engaging with that she would not have to bear the funeral costs. That is the basis on which she proceeded.

After my constituent’s cousin died and she had arranged the funeral, she contacted the Scottish Prison Service and was told that it was a matter for the English Prison Service. She contacted the English Prison Service but was told that it was a matter for the Scottish Prison Service. At that point, just before the end of last year, I became involved. As I am sure the Minister can appreciate, those are sad circumstances, but there is also a degree of confusion in the case. I sought, on behalf of my constituent, to get some clarity on the matter. It was for that reason that I eventually sought this debate.

When I contacted the Scottish Ministers responsible for the Scottish Prison Service in early December, I was told that they would pass the matter on to the Scottish Prison Service and provide me with a response, for which I was still waiting. However, they told my office by phone that it was indeed a matter for the English Prison Service because of the prisoner transfer. At that point I raised the matter in the House during business questions. I also corresponded with the Ministry of Justice, but my correspondence was automatically passed on to the Scottish authorities without my having received a response. My sense is that this is being passed backwards and forwards between authorities, which means I am unable to get a clear answer on where responsibility for the situation properly lies. It is for that reason that I sought this debate. I hope that the Minister will be able to provide some clarity.

I would like to make two further points. First, the way in which my constituent and I have been advised and passed between authorities in these circumstances is unacceptable. I realise that the matter is not completely the responsibility of the Minister and his Department—it also involves the Scottish authorities—but something should be done to ensure that in future similar cases are dealt with more appropriately and sensitively.

Secondly, because my constituent was provided with advice and worked on that basis, she has now been left responsible for a bill for funeral expenses of about £2,000, which she cannot afford. The Government should therefore show sensitivity and deal with this matter by using their discretion to ensure that she is not left in her current situation. She is unable to pay a bill because of the conflicting advice that she was given in good faith, after she sought to support a dying relative and showed her personal compassion by getting involved after the prisoner’s mother became seriously ill.

My first concern is that the appropriate authorities have not dealt with the case well, and my second is for my constituent who, in relation to her income and resources, faces a severe financial problem in dealing with the costs. Different conditions appear to apply in English as opposed to Scottish prisons, but with the transfer of my constituent’s relative between them, it almost feels as though he was an English prisoner while he lived but became a Scottish one when he died. Passing such cases backwards and forwards between authorities is not acceptable or appropriate. I hope that the Minister will clarify the situation and provide some comfort to my constituent, who faces not only the trauma that comes with the loss of a relative, whatever the circumstances and background, but a severe financial penalty as a result.

17:21

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Jeremy Wright)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) on securing this debate, and I thank him for giving my officials notice of the details of the case.

I first want to acknowledge that the death of a relative in prison must be devastating for the families and friends of the deceased. Their loss must of course be harder to bear given where the death occurred. I particularly offer my regret to the hon. Gentleman and to his constituent for any additional distress caused in relation to the provision of financial assistance to help to meet the funeral costs.

The hon. Gentleman quite properly asks me to clarify the position. Let me try to do so by setting out the position in relation to funeral expenses as they apply in England and Wales and, as far as I can, in Scotland. I also want to take this opportunity to express regret for the way in which the case appears to have been handled. It is unfortunate that his constituent has not been given clear information, so let me try to set that right by giving it now.

The hon. Gentleman will be aware that although convicted and sentenced in England, Mr Campbell had transferred to a prison in Scotland, and it was there that he died. He will know that prisons in Scotland are a matter for the Scottish Government, and I am not therefore able to comment in detail on the support available to families in Scotland, which is a matter for the Scottish Justice Minister.

The hon. Gentleman will know that if a prisoner dies in custody in England or Wales, the governor or director of the prison in which the death occurs can offer a financial contribution to cover reasonable funeral expenses. It is reasonable and decent to do so in those circumstances, but the offer is not unlimited. A financial contribution will be offered only if the deceased prisoner did not have a pre-paid funeral plan. Families may also be entitled to claim a grant from another Department, such as the Department for Work and Pensions, or from a local authority. An offer of a contribution of up to £3,000 may be made to the family, and if they accept it, the money is paid directly to the funeral director they appoint and may be used to pay for any funeral director’s fees, a hearse, a simple coffin, and cremation or burial fees. It cannot to be used to pay for items such as a headstone, transportation for mourners or a wake.

As I have said, Mr Campbell died in a Scottish prison, as the hon. Gentleman knows. Although Mr Campbell was convicted and sentenced in England and Wales, he had elected to transfer to Scotland to be close to his family and friends there, and he had been in a Scottish prison since 2002. I understand that the nature of his transfer may have caused confusion about who was responsible for assisting the family with the funeral expenses.

There should not have been any confusion in this case; that there was is a matter of regret. As the deceased died in the custody of the Scottish Prison Service, the Scottish arrangements apply. I understand that the Scottish Prison Service does not make discretionary payments towards funeral expenses. That, of course, is a matter for the service, and the hon. Gentleman might wish to take it up with the Scottish Justice Minister. However, I understand that the deceased’s family may be able to make an application in Scotland to the social fund for help with funeral expenses. As the Minister responsible for prisons in England and Wales, I cannot comment further on those arrangements or on whether a payment would or could be made to his constituents.

The hon. Gentleman rightly indicated that Mr Campbell was convicted and sentenced in England and Wales and then transferred to Scotland on a restricted basis. It may help if I explain what that means in practice. The transfer of prisoners between United Kingdom jurisdictions is governed by schedule 1 to the Crime (Sentences) Act 1997, which was intended to enable prisoners sentenced in one UK jurisdiction to transfer to another to serve their sentence close to their family and in the community into which they will be released.

The Act provides for transfer on either an unrestricted or a restricted basis. When a prisoner is transferred on a restricted basis, as in Mr Campbell’s case, responsibility for their release, supervision and recall remains the responsibility of the sentencing jurisdiction. However, for all other purposes the prisoner is subject to the rules and regulations governing prisons and prisoners in the receiving jurisdiction. That position was confirmed on 28 October 1997 when the then Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), set out in a written answer to a question from the right hon. Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) how the new transfer arrangements would work. He said:

“A prisoner granted a restricted transfer will automatically remain, for the duration of his or her transfer, subject to the law governing release on licence, automatic release, post-release supervision and recall applicable in the sending jurisdiction…A prisoner transferred on a restricted basis will normally become subject for all purposes, other than those specified in any conditions attached to the transfer, to the statutory and other provisions applying to prisoners in the receiving jurisdiction.”—[Official Report, 28 October 1997; Vol. 299, c. 777.]

Although Mr Campbell’s release arrangements remained subject to English law, he was for all other purposes a Scottish prisoner. As such, any support to the deceased’s family, financial or otherwise, is a matter for the Scottish authorities. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will accept that and recognise that I am not trying to pass the buck. I understand that he has received differing advice on the issue from officials in England and Wales and in Scotland, but I can confirm that the position that I have described is accepted by both Prison Services.

I am satisfied that the family of the deceased in this case do not qualify for financial assistance under the rules applicable in England and Wales. I know that the hon. Gentleman will wish to take the matter up with the Scottish authorities and discuss it directly with them.

Question put and agreed to.

17:27

House adjourned.

Westminster Hall

Thursday 30th January 2014 Westminster Hall

Thursday 30 January 2014

[Mr Mike Weir in the Chair]

Early Childhood Development

Thursday 30th January 2014 Westminster Hall

[Relevant document: “The 1001 Critical Days: The Importance of the Conception to Age Two Period”—a cross-party manifesto by Andrea Leadsom MP, Frank Field MP, Paul Burstow MP and Caroline Lucas MP.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting be now adjourned.—(Mr Evennett.)

13:30

[Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)]

I am delighted to have secured this debate, and I am grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for selecting it. Mr Weir, did you know that 36% of all case reviews into deaths or serious abuse involve a baby under the age of one, and that a quarter of all babies in the UK have a parent affected by domestic violence, mental health or drug or alcohol problems? Furthermore, if one asked most local authorities how much they spend on specialist parent and infant mental health services, the answer would be, “Nothing.”

I am proud of the fact that with three cross-party colleagues, I have launched the manifesto “The 1001 Critical Days” to propose specific ways that the Government can better support the needs of new families. The 1,001 critical days is the period of time from conception to the age of two. In our cross-party manifesto, the right hon. Members for Birkenhead (Mr Field) and for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow), the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas) and I seek to recognise the overwhelming evidence now available that a secure early relationship between baby and key carer is vital to the infant’s lifelong emotional and physical well-being.

We are grateful for the strong interest that the manifesto has received from Ministers and shadow Ministers, particularly the Under-Secretary of State for Health, my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter), and the hon. Members for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell) and for Washington and Sunderland West (Mrs Hodgson). We have also been delighted by the amazing number and range of endorsements for our manifesto, from the chief medical officer for England and Wales to UNICEF UK, the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, the Centre for Social Justice, Barnardo’s, the Royal College of Midwives, the Royal College of General Practitioners and the Institute of Health Visiting. The list goes on and on.

Mr Weir, you might be wondering what on earth is left to debate if the topic is such a love-in, but the truth is that there is an enormous amount to be done if we are to seize the opportunity to change our society radically for the better. An NSPCC study shows that only 64% of NHS trusts have a perinatal mental health strategy. Other recent research shows that 42% of GPs feel that they have very little knowledge about the specialist services available for severe mental illness. Nearly a quarter—23%—of all maternity professionals say that they have received no education on maternal mental health, and the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health estimates that the annual short-term costs alone of emotional, conduct and hyperkinetic disorders among children aged five to 15 in the UK are £1.58 billion, and the annual long-term costs are £2.53 billion.

The Institute of Health Visiting is delighted by the Government’s commitment to significantly increasing the number of health visitors, and progress in training new health visitors is on target. However, in a recent survey by the institute, 87% of midwives said that their work loads had increased and that they were seeing the following worrying trends: 65% were seeing increased child behaviour problems, 61% reported seeing an increase in the prevalence of speech delay, 73% were seeing an increase in poverty that was having a bad influence on families, 82.5% were seeing an increase in domestic violence and abuse and 70% reported an increase in the incidence of perinatal depression. Perinatal depression includes antenatal depression—that is, before a woman has her baby—as well as the depression that can arise during birth as a result of a traumatic birth experience and, of course, post-natal depression, which is the main subject that people talk about when they talk about depression in the perinatal period, if they ever talk about it.

Everyone would agree that prevention is better than cure. Everyone, or pretty much everyone, would agree that many of our society’s greatest problems stem from alcohol and substance abuse and mental illness. But too few people realise that in a vast number of cases, those in our society who cause the most damage and cost the most money have been permanently set up for disaster from their own infancy. The absence of a secure bond between baby and carer in the 1,001 critical days has profound lifelong consequences for the baby. I am convinced that once the strong link between experiences in the earliest years and whole-life outcomes becomes more widely accepted, we will start to make huge progress in tackling society’s most intractable problems.

The efforts of 20th-century politics achieved great strides in tackling the physical health of our nation. The challenge for our 21st-century generation must surely be to secure sound mental health that will lead to a stronger and happier society. Imagine how wonderful it would be if we were to shut down prisons, not because of overcrowding or poor conditions but because we did not have enough criminals to fill them. Imagine if we could close psychiatric hospitals due to a lack of need for them.

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on this debate. I know that she is achieving quite a reputation in this area. The Select Committee on Justice, of which I am a member, held an inquiry recently into youth justice and the drivers of youth justice. As she will probably know, just 10% of children and young people in the general population have a speech and language difficulty, but in the prison population the figure is somewhere between 60% and 65%. Does she agree that delayed language development leads to issues at school, exclusion from school and many of the problems that cost our society so heavily?

[Andrea Leadsom]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right that delayed speech is a key contributor to later problems for the infant who does not reach the right level of speech capability in the first critical years.

Think of walking through any big city in the UK without seeing teenagers living rough in the streets. Finally, imagine a society where the number of babies and children being taken into care and removed from their families was falling, instead of rising as it is at the moment.

[Tim Loughton (East Worthing and Shoreham) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on bringing this important subject before the House again. I should disclose an interest as the chairman of the Mindful Policy Group, which is all about promoting attachment. The figures that she gives are stark, but does she also acknowledge that this has become a generational issue in too many of the statistics that she mentioned? Half of young people in young offenders institutes who come from care will then go on to have children subject to similar problems. In many cases, the common cause is domestic violence and lack of attachment built at an early age. It is not rocket science; these are common themes. It is a false investment not to do something early, as her excellent manifesto so clearly proposes.

[Andrea Leadsom]

I completely agree, and I will discuss that in a moment. It is called the cycle of deprivation, and my hon. Friend is absolutely right to raise it.

I honestly believe that it is possible to change our society for the better, but it needs a concentrated focus on the mental health of our nation. I want us to build a third pillar to our great universal services. Alongside the achievements of free and universally available health care and education, I want a free and universal service focusing on the mental health of our people. It must start at the very beginning—the period of 1,001 critical days between conception and age two—and it must ensure that every child can build the emotional capacity and resilience to cope with life’s ups and downs.

I make the case that what we do with a baby from conception to age two is all about building the human and emotional capacity of that infant. Supportive interventions with a child after the age of two are often too much about trying to undo damage that has already been done. I would never advocate giving up on anyone, but it is an incontrovertible fact that if we want to change our society for the better, we must focus on the crucial period between conception and age two.

Human babies are unique in the animal kingdom in the extent of their underdevelopment at birth. What other animal cannot walk until it is nearly a year old and cannot fend for itself in any way at all until it is at least two years old? However, the physical underdevelopment is only a tiny part of it. The human brain is only partially formed when a baby is born. The billions of neurones in the brain are largely undifferentiated at birth, and parts of the brain are simply not there. Humans are born with only the fight-or-flight instinct and the earliest experiences of the human baby literally hardwire his or her brain and have a lifelong impact on the baby’s mental and emotional health.

What are a baby’s earliest experiences? It is quite simple. When a baby cries, he does not know that he is wet, tired, hungry, bored or too hot; he just knows that something is wrong, so he relies on a loving, adult carer to soothe his feelings. Most parents will remember, as I certainly do, long nights spent walking up and down, hugging a baby, saying, “Go to sleep, go to sleep,” desperate for sleep ourselves and determined to try one thing after another to sort the situation out. The baby whose basic needs are met learns that the world is a good place, and he or she will retain that sense as an instinct for life. That baby will be more emotionally more robust than the baby who does not have his needs met.

For the baby who is neglected or abused, there are two critical impacts on development. First, a baby cannot regulate his or her own feelings at all. If the basic needs are not met, he or she will simply scream louder and louder, and eventually take refuge in sleep. The first impact is that a baby who is left to continually scream night after night will experience raised levels of the stress hormone, cortisol. Excessive amounts of that damage the baby’s immune system permanently, and evidence suggests that a baby left to scream for hours at a time, day in and day out, will develop a higher tolerance to their own stress level, meaning that in later life, they will have more of a predisposition to high risk-taking behaviour than a baby who has only a normal level of cortisol. A lot of evidence shows that violent criminals have a high tolerance to their own stress levels. However, it is not only that—for a mother who is very stressed during the time that her baby is in the womb, the outcome is that the baby can physically be very desperately damaged. For example, maternal stress during pregnancy can lead to a thinning of the baby’s arteries, which has profound consequences later in terms of congenital heart disease, diabetes and obesity.

There is also a very real physical impact on the brain. The pre-frontal cortex—the social part of the brain—only starts to develop at about six months, and the peak period for that part of the brain to develop is between six and 18 months old. Growth is stimulated by the relationship between the baby and carer, and peek-a-boo games, gazing into each other’s eyes, singing songs, saying, “I love you, you gorgeous little thing!” and lots of cuddling all play a really strong role. Love literally shapes the baby’s brain. The brain develops millions of neural connections during that period and the pre-frontal cortex physically grows in size.

[Steve Brine]

Although I appreciate that saying, “You beautiful, delightful thing” is clearly the thing to do, at 3 in the morning, especially as a brand-new MP with a vote at 10 pm the next night, saying, “The Prime Minister really needs to be on my game” does not cut much ice with a newborn baby—I say that from bitter experience. My point is that parents have to learn how to be parents and how to give that love and care. Will my hon. Friend take a moment to recognise the amazing work of organisations such as Home-Start? They do brilliant work in teaching parents how to be parents.

[Andrea Leadsom]

Yes, Home-Start does a fantastic job, as do other volunteer organisations, peer-support groups and so on; there are many around the country. It is true to say that becoming a parent is the most difficult thing that someone ever does. There is no on-off button for a baby and no rule book, guidebook or handbook, so we all struggle on in our own way, with better or worser results—[Interruption.] Probably not “worser”—worse, thank you. The Secretary of State for Education is not responding to the debate, so we are all right, but the point is about being a good enough parent, and if a baby knows that he or she is loved, a parent does not have to say it at 3 o’clock in the morning when they are at their wits’ end. However, a baby does have to learn that their parent loves them.

When a baby does not receive attention from a loving adult carer, the pre-frontal cortex does not grow and may never grow. Many will remember the tragic story of the Romanian orphanages, where the minimal physical and emotional contact with babies left them profoundly and permanently brain-damaged. Some of them died literally from a lack of love.

It ought to be natural and automatic for families to form a loving and secure bond with their babies, but post-natal depression, problems with conception, trauma during childbirth, domestic violence and issues of poverty and deprivation all get in the way. Insecure attachment is no respecter of social class or wealth. One of the biggest obstacles to forming that crucial secure bond is when mum did not have a secure relationship with her own mother. As my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton) pointed out, it truly is a cycle of deprivation that is all too often passed down through generations.

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

I thank my hon. Friend for securing the debate and for the passion that she has for the issue. Does she agree that a strong relationship between the child’s parents is critical? On the tragic costs of family breakdown within the country, she cited some statistics, but another is that £46 billion is the cost of social breakdown. Does she agree that, given that three different Departments have already been mentioned in the debate—the Ministry of Justice, the Department of Health and the Department for Education, and I could add the Department for Communities and Local Government, because we have health and well-being boards—we need to look at having a team responsible in a Government Department, with a lead Minister who will give the issue priority on a daily basis?

[Andrea Leadsom]

My hon. Friend is a passionate advocate for support for relationships, and she is absolutely right that the best results for babies and young children come when they have two parents who love each other. There is no question about that. All the statistics back that up, so she is absolutely right; we ought to prioritise the essential importance of helping families to stay together.

The brain development of babies has deep implications for society. A human being without a properly developed social brain finds it very difficult to properly empathise with other human beings. That can pose risks along a spectrum, from a general lack of emotional resilience, leading to depression or general unhappiness, to antisocial behaviour, drug-taking, criminality and, at the most extreme end, psychotic behaviour.

The charity Railway Children estimates that there are up to 100,000 children at risk on the streets in the UK every year. Research shows that more than 80% of long-term prison inmates have attachment problems that stem from babyhood. Evidence now suggests that two thirds of future chronic criminals can be predicted by the behaviour seen in two-year-olds. A New Zealand study showed that a child with substantial antisocial behaviour aged seven would have a 22-fold increased chance of criminality by the age of 26. Statistics issued by the Office for National Statistics show that almost 80,000 children and young people suffer from severe depression, and that 95% of imprisoned young offenders have a mental health disorder.

There is also a very real financial cost to society: each looked-after child costs the taxpayer about £347 a day, each adult prison inmate costs the taxpayer about £112 a day and each person in acute psychiatric in-patient care costs the taxpayer £225 a day. Analysis of spending in local authorities shows that that cannot go on for much longer. The wonderfully named “Barnet graph of doom” shows that on current trends, spending on children’s services and adult statutory services alone will outstrip the income of the local authority of Barnet by 2025. That means the council will have nothing to spend on other important services such as refuse collections, potholes, or parks and leisure facilities.

A pretty shocking statistic is that research suggests that in Britain, 40% of children are not securely attached by the age of five. Of course, that does not mean that they will all go on to have behavioural or relationship problems, because other life events will play a part, but it does mean that they will be less robust in their emotional make-up to meet the challenges and disappointments of life. It also means that later in life, as parents, they may struggle to form strong attachments to their own babies, thus perpetuating the cycle of misery through the generations.

Having set the scene and described the challenge, I shall move on to the proposals that we have set out in our “The 1001 Critical Days” manifesto. The key overarching call is for an holistic approach to the perinatal period whereby the needs of the family are met in a seamless way.

First, we need specialist mental health midwives and health visitors in every local authority area. We must enable women with a history of mental illness to receive tailored antenatal and post-natal care, and thereby reduce the risk of later post-natal depression. Secondly, those families experiencing difficulties should be able to access evidence-based services that promote parent-infant bonding, such as video interaction guidance and parent-infant psychotherapy. Thirdly, all parents should have access to antenatal classes that deal with both the physical and emotional implications of childbirth, as well as the baby’s own mental health needs.

Fourthly, the registration of the birth of a baby should be made possible in children’s centres in every area. Benchill children’s centre in Manchester Central, where the hon. Member for Manchester Central plays such a key role in promoting early years intervention, is a fantastic example of how registration in children’s centres can help new families. It has been offering birth registration for more than a decade, and its reach to new families has grown from less than 50% in a very deprived ward to 87.5%. In addition, its re-engagement rate with families is astonishing: for young parents, it is 100%. All parents have access to the services that they may desperately need, to help them to get the best start in life with their babies. In—

[Tim Loughton]

I did not mean to interrupt my hon. Friend mid-sentence. She makes some very fine points, especially about accessing antenatal classes and children’s centres. Does she agree that we need to make both types of facility more dad-friendly as well as mum-friendly because too often they are dominated by mums, and that, where partners are available, the support that they can be encouraged to give if seen as an equal partner in the family could help to prevent some of the perinatal mental health problems that befall one in six women around the time they give birth?

[Andrea Leadsom]

Yes. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for making that point. Benchill has that amazing ability to reach new families by offering birth registration. As hon. Members will know, if a man is not married to the mother of the child, the only way to have his name on the certificate is to be present physically at the registration as the father. Therefore, the advantage of offering registration in children’s centres to families is that it offers the opportunity for the children’s centre to look at the parents together. Benchill certainly encourages its staff to chat to dad. It encourages them not to focus just on mum or baby, but to talk to dad and the other children if they are there—to engage with them, try to give them support and let them see what services are offered to dads and babies and not just mums and babies. That is a perfect example of how to support the entire family. In one fell swoop, Benchill deals with the problem of stigma—everyone goes to the children’s centre, so clearly there is no stigma—and those families who are deemed hard to reach and who so often need services but do not get them are automatically engaged.

The fifth proposal in our manifesto is that there needs to be a presumption of data sharing among perinatal health professionals. The incorrect perception remains that sharing concerns about a mum, a family or children is against the law. In fact, professionals talking to one another and sharing their concerns and the information that they have on different families could very often save lives by allowing earlier interventions to be made.

[Sarah Champion (Rotherham) (Lab)]

The hon. Lady is making a very interesting point. I am doing an inquiry into child sexual abuse, and one of the key blocks to getting prosecutions is the lack of information sharing among health bodies, education bodies, local authorities and the police, so I fully support the recommendation on that, because it seems to me the only way in which we can prevent abuse and other forms of neglect.

[Andrea Leadsom]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. Sadly, in serious case reviews there is very often an element of failure on the part of health professionals—a failure to talk to one another. Very often, that is a contributing factor to the disastrous outcomes that we sometimes see for families and children.

[Tim Loughton]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point about data sharing, but it does not happen in practice and is too often used as an excuse by professionals who are too lazy in some cases or have various other professional reasons for not wanting to speak to other professionals. Through the proliferation of MASHs—multi-agency safeguarding hubs—and through local safeguarding children boards and other bodies, professionals now come together regularly to share strategy, and they should be able to change that information as well. The regulations do not deter them from doing that, so it is an excuse and in practice that excuse should not be tolerated.

[Andrea Leadsom]

Yes. Even my hon. Friend’s harder line is absolutely right: there should be a presumption in favour of data sharing. It should not be a case of people saying, “Oh, I didn’t know,” or, “I didn’t think it was allowed.” It should be a case of people being told, “If you didn’t share information, you should have done.” At the moment, that is not understood strongly enough.

Of course, data sharing is relevant not only in child neglect or child abuse cases. Let us say that a midwife meets a mother antenatally and is aware that that mother is terrified at the prospect of giving birth because of the physical implications, because she is afraid that her partner might leave her or because she is afraid that she will lose her job as a new mum. Often, when such issues are picked up antenatally, there is, first, a lack of places to refer that mum on to and, secondly, a lack of a communication path to enable the midwife to think about whom they should be talking to.

There is, therefore, a very strong argument for creating formal links between midwives, health visitors and children’s centres to ensure not only that they can talk to someone else, but that they must talk to someone else. The relevance of that to the mum’s experience is that if a midwife is concerned about a mum, they can perhaps refer her on to a mental health specialist midwife and a mental health-focused health visitor. That could all take place under the auspices of a sensitively attuned children’s centre, so that the mum’s needs can be met throughout the perinatal period, giving her the best chance of forming the vital secure bond with her baby. Data sharing is relevant not only to cases involving severe child protection issues; it is also about supporting mums who are just struggling. As we know, the statistics suggest that as many as 100,000 mums a year may be just generally struggling. It is not that there are severe physical or neglect threats to their babies; it is just that those mums need a bit of support, and at the moment we are not giving them that.

That takes me on to our sixth proposal. There is a huge need to provide proper training for front-line health and social care professionals in the importance of attachment and early brain development. I have been involved for about 15 years with parent-infant partnership charities that provide psychotherapeutic support to families. We also provide training to front-line professionals. It is astonishing how many post-training evaluation forms we get from midwives, health visitors, GPs and social workers that say, “Wow! I wish I had known before how important the earliest relationship is.” That is not as much about the physical health as about the emotional health and the attachment.

Our seventh proposal is that local commissioning groups and health and wellbeing boards should specifically consider the social and emotional needs of babies in their local strategies.

The eighth proposal is that childminders and nurseries should consider how they can better meet the attachment needs of babies in their care, and that Ofsted inspections should specifically provide guidance and assess their performance. As a member of the Committee considering the Children and Families Bill, which passed through the House of Commons recently, I was pretty shocked, when we had Ofsted in to give pre-Committee evidence, to be told that Ofsted inspectors do not routinely assess those looking after the very youngest—potentially babies from the age of three months to two years old—on how well the care setting is meeting their attachment needs. There is this sense of schoolifying in the inspection regime. It forgets about how well the key worker is playing with the baby, responding to the baby, smiling at and cuddling the baby and being the key person who changes the nappy, does the feeds and so on. All those things are absolutely crucial for secondary attachment if mum or dad is out at work.

[Sarah Champion]

I know that the debate is about early years, but I was also surprised to find that in schools, there is no requirement for Ofsted to measure safeguarding; they deal only with educational attainment. We must look more holistically at a child from birth onwards.

[Andrea Leadsom]

As the hon. Lady said, the debate is about the earliest years. If we can get those right, there will be many fewer problems later in a child’s development. We can close down the pipeline of later problems by intervening and supporting families far earlier.

The final proposal in our manifesto “The 1001 Critical Days” is that although children’s centres should continue to provide a universal service, they should prioritise specialist services for families with the highest level of need regardless of their social and economic circumstances. Service provision must be needs-based and universal, but focused on specialist services for those who really need them.

As I have said, since 2001 I have been closely involved with parent-infant charities that provide psychotherapeutic support to families who are struggling to form a secure early bond with their baby. I am delighted to say that a year ago I set up a charity called Parent Infant Partnership UK, which has set out with philanthropic donations to establish specialist parent-infant psychotherapy services based in children’s centres around England and Wales. The first brand-new Parent Infant Partnership, LIVPIP, will launch this month in the constituency of the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger). It will provide psychotherapeutic services for families who need them in the Liverpool area. I am absolutely delighted about that, and I hope that other local authorities will want to establish similar specialist services themselves.

[Sarah Champion]

I am very supportive of the scheme that the hon. Lady is describing, and I hope that it can be rolled out more widely. In Rotherham, we have some fantastic Sure Start centres that offer great parenting classes. Does the hon. Lady share my concern that because our early intervention grant has been reduced, we are having to look at cutting the number of Sure Starts from 22 to nine? I am concerned that the vital parenting support given by the Sure Starts will be lost.

[Andrea Leadsom]

The hon. Lady will know that there is a presumption against closure, and several local authorities have considered closing Sure Starts but have chosen not to. I once took my hat off in the Chamber to the Labour party for creating Sure Start—I was subsequently told that props were not allowed in the Chamber—but the problem is that they are not universally understood. If we ask the proverbial man on the Clapham omnibus what a school is for, we will get the same answer from every man on that omnibus. If we ask what a children’s centre is for, however, we will get all sorts of different answers. The fundamental problem with the Sure Start children’s centre system is that there is no common understanding of what they are for and the extent to which they should be provided.

My opinion—this is not part of our manifesto—is that children’s centres should have a statutory footing like schools do. If a school year 4 is failing, we do not say, “Well, shut it then, and those children can just go without learning to read and write.” The profound implications of children’s centre services on a child’s development may be far greater than whether they learn to read and write at the age of four, and far more fundamental for their life chances, but we are willing to shut children’s centres. I appreciate what the hon. Lady has said about cuts, but we need to improve understanding of children’s centres and spread the good practice that undeniably exists in some. We must persuade local authorities that children’s centres are not for cutting; they are profoundly important—at least as important as schools and hospitals. That is my opinion, but I hope that answers the hon. Lady’s good point.

Psychotherapeutic interventions from parent-infant partnerships have changed lives for the better for thousands of families. For those families whose babies now have the best start in life, rather than a disastrous one, politicians can count the savings to the public purse. Early years intervention has the potential to save billions of pounds from the cost of dealing with poor mental health, antisocial behaviour, crime and violence. My hope is that all political parties will adopt the achievable and sensible recommendations of our manifesto “The 1001 Critical Days”, and that we will together strive for the real prize, which is, surely, to change our society for the better.

14:04

[Fiona O'Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)]

I apologise for my late arrival. I congratulate the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) on securing, with her friends and colleagues, such an important debate. It is excellent to have the opportunity to debate these important matters at length under your chairmanship, Mr Weir.

Hon. Members might be surprised to see a Scottish MP contributing to the debate, because Scotland and England have such separate and distinct approaches to child care, maternal care and paternal care, but there are lessons that we can learn from each other, and that is why I was keen to make a contribution today. In addition, I have been working closely with two third-sector organisations, the National Childbirth Trust and Bliss, on problems that arise when babies are born prematurely, and I want to focus on the needs of children, parents and the wider family when babies are born prematurely.

I have personal experience of the strain that that causes, having given birth to twin boys eight weeks prematurely when I also had a two-year-old and a four-year-old. When anyone asks me how I do the difficult job of Member of Parliament, I assure them that it is a piece of cake compared with being a mother of four children under four. My first-born—my daughter—has cerebral palsy, and when my twins were born I was living in rural Oxfordshire and not driving, so I faced multiple barriers to making that important bond with my premature babies. It is an awful experience for a mother to arrive home when it is more or less obvious that she has given birth—it is especially evident when twins have left the uterus—but because the babies are not with her, no one comes up to ask what happened. The mother is deprived of the opportunity to celebrate the birth of her children.

There is constant worry and strain over whether those children will grow up healthy and well, or even make it through that dangerous period in their lives, and parents have to take each day at a time. I pay tribute to the staff in the special care baby unit in Banbury who brought my babies—who are now 6 feet 2 inches and feet 3 inches and making a useful contribution to society—through that time. The right hon. Member for Banbury (Sir Tony Baldry) had newly been elected, and while my twins were still in the womb, I marched in protest to keep the special care baby unit open, not realising that they would soon be using the unit’s services.

There are particular strains for working parents. I was not a working parent at the time, so I did not have to make choices about maternity pay. People frequently do not understand that a baby who is born significantly prematurely often does not catch up, in terms of age and stage development, until they are at least two years old—I believe that it can take longer than that, and it certainly did in the case of my boys—and maternity pay does not allow for that. A mother is faced with the difficult choice of whether to take paid maternity leave while her baby is in hospital and possibly critically ill, or wait until the baby returns home. I would like the Government to look at that, because it puts such a strain on parents.

The hon. Member for Congleton (Fiona Bruce) spoke about the need for other Departments to be involved. Given its responsibility for maternity and paternity leave, the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills should be part of a joined-up approach. The Department for Work and Pensions must also be part of that, because although poverty and deprivation are certainly not the only factors that contribute to a lack of secure attachment or the health and well-being of parents and children, they can make a huge difference. In my case, we suffered from the combination of four children under five and huge financial pressure on our family, and we were at risk of losing our home. I started childminding the children of wealthy parents, so that they could have piano lessons and beauty spa treatments, to try to make ends meet. That puts a huge strain on a family, and for a mother or father at home, the child is often the only outlet for that frustration.

My hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion) rightly raised the issue of Sure Start centres. We do not have them in Scotland, but like many Members, I have watched at least two episodes of “Benefits Street.” When a Sure Start worker worked alongside some parents, it was incredibly inspiring to see how empowered the mother was. She was talking about the need to create a calm atmosphere and be consistent. It was the most inspiring and optimistic thing to see a parent given such skills. The way to do that is not by punishing them or withdrawing benefits, but by getting alongside people, showing them that we are on their side and understand, and giving them the necessary skills. I very much hope that the children from that family will grow up happier, healthier and able to contribute to society, and that they will not need that kind of support when they are parents. Investment in the early days is so important and can make such a difference to children’s outcomes.

[Sarah Champion]

I was surprised, and quite shocked, that 26% of babies in the UK—that is 198,000—are estimated to live in a traumatic family environment, and the effect on their well-being is considerable.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention. It is so distressing—no child chooses where it is born. No child is born bad; bad things happen to children. It is really depressing to face the idea that a child’s outcomes should be determined by the streets they were born between. At NCH, which is now called Action for Children, I worked with children who were at risk of being removed from their family. I always felt that that was an ironic term, because the best thing for some children was to be removed from their family, as it was for the parents, too. For those children, there was really no opportunity. Many had suffered emotional and, at times, physical and sexual abuse.

I urge the Minister to look at the excellent children’s panel hearing system that we have in Scotland, because it works well. It is great, because the child is absolutely at the centre of the process. This is not about what happens in the first 1,001 days, but seeing a child finally disclosing the abuse they have suffered, with us all having to leave the room until they felt able to tell their story, was the most remarkable thing, as was knowing that, hopefully, it was the beginning of a process of survival and recovery from that abuse. It was desperately sad to hear a 10-year-old boy say to me, “I know I can never be a parent, Fiona, because I couldn’t be trusted.” It is unthinkable that children should have to face such choices. As the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire said, we must educate health workers, teachers, nursery workers—everyone involved in a child’s care—to spot the early signs of abuse and not be frightened to raise concerns.

I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response, as well as that of my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger), particularly on the issue of parents of premature babies. We know that breastfeeding brings huge benefits to babies. I am a mother of premature twins.

[Andrea Leadsom]

I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way, because I wanted to make one little point that I did not cover in my speech. I am so glad that she received such excellent care for her pre-term babies. However, does she agree that it is rather shocking that if someone has a baby pre-term, we move heaven and earth—we helicopter babies all over the place—to find a neonatal intensive care unit, whereas if a child is born full-term and the mother has a psychotic incident, which happens in up to 1% of births every year, affecting up to 7,000 families in the UK, it is a postcode lottery as to whether an in-patient unit can be found? That could be a death sentence for the baby. It is completely unfair.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

I absolutely agree, and I am grateful to the hon. Lady for making that point. It is unacceptable that there should be a postcode lottery when there could not be a more vital time to intervene.

I return to my point about the importance of breastfeeding and supporting mothers in providing nourishment for their child. That is especially true in the case of premature babies, because the recommended start date for a mother to breastfeed is three weeks post-term. Maternity leave rights and—particularly when parents cannot afford to take unpaid leave—maternity pay are therefore vital. This was 27 years ago, so some time ago, but when I had premature twins, the support and encouragement for mothers of premature babies to breastfeed was not what it should have been. I hope that that has improved, because it is a vital part of the bonding process. Although the mother cannot put the baby to her breast, at least being involved in putting the milk into the baby’s gut—knowing that they are giving that nutrition—is a vital part of feeling a success as a mother.

I congratulate the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire again on securing this debate. I hope that the Minister will look at the recommendations in the manifesto and work with organisations such as the NCT and Bliss, so that across the UK, we are all working to give all our children the best possible start and opportunity in life.

14:16

[Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)]

I rise to support my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) and her cross-party colleagues in the important work that they are doing in highlighting the issues we are discussing. The manifesto is accessible, understandable and persuasive. Speaking as a relatively new dad, so much of it is also very intuitive. It makes one think, “Yeah, of course; that is pretty straightforward and obvious,” although we need to see a lot more of it happening.

I want to take a slightly different angle and talk a little about social mobility and the effect of the first days and years of life on children’s eventual chances. When considering child development, it is always helpful to have in mind a sort of pyramid—in fact, there is such a pyramid in the manifesto. It creates a hierarchy of need. The sharp end of the pyramid is the very sharp end of the scale—the acute cases where, frankly, social mobility is not the top priority. The top priority is child protection, basic safety and health; social mobility is a worry for another day. At the base of the pyramid is the massive part—the world at large; most people. In the middle is the section of children I want to talk about today: those born into poverty and disadvantage who are not quite in the acute bracket.

We know that social mobility in this country is low by international standards—we are usually bracketed with Italy and the United States—and it has not been improving. On average, those of us here in our forties—including, as of a couple of days ago, my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Steve Brine)—have been less mobile in our lives than those of us here in their fifties. That is a poor state for any advanced democracy to find itself in. Why is that the case? When I was on the Education Committee, we used to find that everyone blamed the stage before. If we spoke to universities, they said that they were not getting the kids coming through from sixth forms; the sixth forms blamed the teachers doing the GCSEs; the secondary schools blamed the primary schools; the primary schools blamed the nurseries; and the nurseries said, “We are just not getting the kids through the door anymore.”

There is an element of truth in what they all said. The more one studies social mobility and children’s life chances, the more one realises that it increasingly does come down to the very earliest age. The all-party group on social mobility published a report called “Seven key truths about social mobility”. Truth No. 1 was that the point of greatest leverage for children’s life chances is what happens between the ages of zero and three—that is what we said, although it could equally be what happens between the ages of zero and two. The problem is that, of course, this is the public sector—we are trying to influence the Government and so on—and most of what happens between the ages of zero and two or three does not happen in a state-controlled or influenced setting; it happens at home. That makes things much more difficult.

Why is this a social mobility issue? How children are brought up is not particularly, or does not have to be, dependent on parents’ income, but there is quite a strong correlation. Figures from “An Anatomy of Economic Inequality in the UK”, a report made by the previous Government at the end of their term, show that on school readiness, for example, children from the poorest fifth of households reach about a third of the way up the percentile scale at age 3, versus more than 60% of children born into the wealthiest third. There is a bunch of statistics like that.

It is frightening that even toddlers’ cognitive ability test scores vary more dramatically according to their parents’ income than according to innate differences in ability. In the millennium cohort study, which tracks children through time, that gap does not narrow between the ages of three and five; in fact, it seems to widen as children go through school. Why? I am careful not to infer any direct causality. All sorts of factors may be involved, but there are significant differences in some things that people associate with home learning environments, and so on, according to socio-economic groups. In the lowest socio-economic group—the poorest fifth of households—only about 40% of children are read to every day at age 3, as opposed to more than 80% in the top 20%. Again, those figures are from “An Anatomy of Economic Inequality in the UK”. Those things can be tracked with a series of measures, including bed time, and so on.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

The hon. Gentleman may not be aware of work undertaken by the chief medical officer of Scotland, Harry Burns, on brain development in children from families with generations of economic deprivation. It showed that their brains were developing differently: the fight-or-flight part of the brain was overdeveloped. That shows that there is a real link between children’s life opportunities and deprivation.

[Damian Hinds]

Clearly, there is a link—a range of studies suggest different ways in which that link manifests itself—and I do not think that any commentator argues about its existence, but there is nothing inevitable about that; it ought to be possible to equalise children’s life chances. Of course, there are examples of both brilliant and awful parenting in every income bracket. Children’s development is no respecter of the home they happen to have been born into. As the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) says,

“it is primarily parents who shape their children’s outcomes—a healthy pregnancy, good mental health, the way that they parent and whether the home environment is educational”.

As he and many others say, what parents do is much more important than who they are.

Home life is difficult territory for the state. I suggest that we need to think harder about how to communicate what is known about successful, positive ways to parent—a quite substantial body of evidence—in a way that does not come across as, and in fact is not, telling people how to bring up their children.

Geography, as well as income group, reveals other interesting differences in early child development. There is a particular difference in London. When people are told this, they assume that child development is worse in London than elsewhere, because of all the issues in a big city like this. However, that is not so. There was another report last week about the different school results of children growing up in London, versus those growing up elsewhere. That is often attributed to the London Challenge, which started in 2003. There are a number of reasons to believe that the London Challenge was not the sole or primary cause of those improvements. One reason to disbelieve that is that the difference in attainment scores for disadvantaged children is apparent way before they get to secondary school; in fact, it is apparent even in pre-school assessments: on average, disadvantaged children in London seem to do about 20% better on the “good level of development” scale than disadvantaged children in the rest of the country. A bunch of things are different about London children and families.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

Excuse my missing the beginning of the hon. Gentleman’s speech, Mr Weir. As someone who was involved in the London Challenge, I should like to know what the relationship is. I am not clear about that. If it was not the London Challenge, what made the difference?

[Damian Hinds]

The hon. Gentleman asks a big question. I do not want to test your patience, Mr Weir, by debating the London Challenge, rather than early child development. I will talk in a minute about societal differences that may or may not be driving factors. The honest answer is that we do not know, but there are reasons to disbelieve that the simple explanation for London’s improvement is the London Challenge. First, the differences are apparent long before children reach secondary school, and the hon. Gentleman will recall that it only started in 2003. Secondly, when translated from London to the black country and Manchester, there were not the same results. Thirdly, so many other things that are different about London are worth looking into.

[Andrea Leadsom]

My hon. Friend speaks so authoritatively on social mobility. It is always interesting to listen to him. However, I put it to him that one reason for London’s exceptionalism could, of course, be that its large immigrant population comes from a different cultural place. My opinion, as opposed to a research view, is that immigrant populations have not suffered the same degree of family breakdown. We found, through my work with the parent-infant projects, that often in immigrant populations there is much more of a family network. Therefore, the bond is often quite secure, even in areas of great deprivation, because of the support for the earliest period of the baby’s life.

[Damian Hinds]

My hon. Friend anticipates where I am going. We are into the realm of speculation. We do not know. It is true that many things are different about family structure, and so on, in London, compared with the rest of the country. We do not know what is the causality, if any, of any of those things or of the outcomes.

Let me start by mentioning some of the things that are the same. There is no significant difference in gender mix, age and birth weight of babies born in London; mothers tend to be older—we know that that is a factor in child development—and better educated; families are bigger in London, and children are more likely to have brothers and sisters; and the mix is massively more diverse than in the rest of the country, both in terms of ethnic diversity, recent immigrants and families with English as an additional language.

In London, there is a slightly lower percentage of children with either a single mother or both parents working; in other words, there are more families where at least one parent is at home. This surprises people. There is also lower participation in pre-school provision and use of formal child care, which, again, surprises people, because ordinarily we expect that participation in early years settings and use of formal child care is associated with positive improvements in child development.

Finally, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire mentioned, although it is, bizarrely, difficult to get reliable statistics, it appears that London is above the national average for the proportion of families with children in which parents are married. That flies in the face of what most people would assume about this city. However, that raises an important question. A massive debate has been going on in America in the past couple of weeks about a Harvard report by Chetty et al. called “Where is the Land of Opportunity?” which presented a number of challenging results in the US context, in terms of social mobility. Its No. 1 conclusion is that family structure is the single most important determinant of social mobility in America and that, interestingly, it affects not only the immediate family, but has a broader effect. In other words, in a neighbourhood where most children are born to two-parent families—specifically, families where the two parents are married—even if people are not in one of those families, by being in such a neighbourhood, they have more chance of getting on.

[Tim Loughton]

My hon. Friend is making a fascinating point. I entirely agree with the personal views of my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) on the different complexion of London, but one only has to look at Mediterranean countries to see the far lesser influence of family breakdown, which is related to inter-generational support. We have spoken about support for parents, the preference for having two parents and how marriage makes for greater stability. Places such as Barcelona have been rebuilt with a view to having different generations living on top of each other, whereas in this country, grandfather and grandma increasingly do not live round the corner, or within easy distance, to help look after the children, which adds extra pressure on the family. There is a bit of a clue, if we look further south, about the influences that may result in different outcomes in London.

[Damian Hinds]

I have a similar instinct. I want to be careful not to imply a causality that we do not know to exist, but one factor in some ethnic communities is that there is greater multi-generational support and more extended families. Intuitively, it makes sense that such support can be an advantage.

Where does all that leave early child development from the perspective of social mobility? First, the Government have to address, head-on, the thorny question of how to help parents to parent, while keeping in mind the pyramid of need, with acute cases at the top, children born into poverty and disadvantage in the next layer down and everyone else below that. I suggest that that should start pre-natally, which is a big part of the manifesto “The 1,001 Critical Days”. Speaking as a recent dad, it is amazing how little we were told or read about what was going to happen after birth, because we were so fixated on pain and the other things that people worry about at the moment of maternity. Sure Start and Sure Start outreach can play an important part in that. I echo what my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester said on the variety of views on what Sure Start is. On the Select Committee, I always used to ask people to define Sure Start, and even when talking to professionals in the field, I would get different responses.

There is also a question about the role of television and new media in supporting mums and families to bring up children. Bookstart is fantastic, but it could be more targeted. I was surprised when we received free books through our door. If people in the income bracket of all of us in this Chamber are failing to buy books, or to get them out of the library, to read to our children, it is not a problem that will be solved by being given two or three books when the child is born. Like my hon. Friend, I pay massive tribute to the work done by Home-Start UK and others on direct one-to-one support.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

Will the hon. Gentleman also pay tribute to Mumsnet? Mumsnet is a safe, non-judgmental and anonymous place where mothers can chat and seek advice and information.

[Damian Hinds]

The hon. Lady makes a good point. Mumsnet is the sort of thing to which I was alluding when I talked about new media. When we talk about Mumsnet, we are obliged to say that Netmums is also available. There is a range of sources of non-judgmental peer-to-peer support, which is vital.

Secondly, the importance of evaluation also comes out of the manifesto “The 1,001 Critical Days”. Intuitively, we all know that there are lots of things that we can do in the earliest years of life that will make a massive difference to a child’s development and later opportunities, but it is difficult to persuade other people of what those things are. Evaluation therefore trades at a huge premium. I pay tribute to the work of the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) on early intervention, which I hope will change our mindset as a polity on how we intervene.

Thirdly, I am not suggesting for a moment that I think I have the answers, but we should not be afraid of talking more about the wider social context and what some of the impacts might be. While respecting people’s life choices and celebrating the diversity of society—families now come in all shapes and sizes—we should not, for the sake of children, be agnostic about what those choices are. We should also see what we can learn from the differences between communities in different parts of the country.

14:35

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow my neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds), whom I thank for the age check. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) on securing this debate and on the manifesto. She knows of my interest in this area, and she sent me a copy hot off the press. I read the manifesto avidly, and I am totally impressed with her work. She spoke eloquently about the cycle of deprivation, and she set out the case as to why, in many ways, society is broken. I will not go on about that, but I think the family unit is the answer that holds so much of this together. Some of my comments will probably tie together the interventions that we have had over the past 15 minutes.

Many Members will be familiar with the work of the Centre for Social Justice, which was set up by the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions when we were in opposition. The CSJ produced a report last year called “Fractured Families: Why stability matters,” which built on the seminal 2006 work “Breakdown Britain” and the 2007 work “Breakthrough Britain.” Basically, “Fractured Families” re-examines how family breakdown continues to plague our society, and it is blunt in saying that, despite the scale of the problem continuing to increase, Government action has been extremely weak. The report shows that the outcomes for children and adults who suffer from family breakdown are often terrible, and that there are huge costs to society. Someone mentioned a huge figure earlier, which I will repeat because it is so staggering. Family breakdown is currently estimated to cost the country some £46 billion a year, which is set to rise to just under £50 billion a year by the end of this Parliament. That is more than the Government spend on the defence budget—talk about ideas for deficit reduction.

The report also says that

“governments have chosen to ignore this problem, they have done so despite the public’s views.”

Those views are striking:

“89 per cent of people agree (52 per cent strongly agree) that ‘If we want to have any hope of mending our broken society, family and parenting is where we’ve got to start’…81 per cent of people think that it is important for children to grow up living with both parents.”

I think that it is time, and the report clearly agrees, that politicians on both sides of the House acknowledge that family breakdown is an issue that matters to the vast majority of people in this country and take whatever action they can to reverse it. The report makes a series of recommendations to all political parties in advance of the next general election, which people can read in their own time.

I want to restate something that my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire said. Earlier, I mentioned the statistics on speech and language difficulties among inmates. Some 80% of long-term prison inmates have attachment problems that stem from babyhood, which is staggering evidence. The good thing that must come out of that is to find a way to help families form the loving and secure bond that she talked so much about. That bond should come naturally when there is a new baby in the house but, as we know, post-natal depression, problems with conception or birth experience, domestic violence and the issues of poverty and deprivation set out by my hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire can, and so often do, get in the way.

That is where Home-Start UK, which I mentioned earlier, has to be part of the toolbox. Its formula of parents helping parents has been incredibly successful over the course of my lifetime—40 years, as we have been reminded. In August 2013 I spoke at the annual general meeting of Home-Start Winchester and Districts, which has been going for a long time and does so much to help families through the really tough times.

When my wife and I had children, people said that children throw a hand grenade into marriages. I think that is nonsense; it is more like an atomic weapon. We had marriage preparation classes before we got married. The vicar who married us said that his one piece of advice was to share the teaspoon moments—the things that get on each other’s nerves. Ten years on—we celebrated 10 years last year—we still regularly share the teaspoon moments, more of them coming my way than going out. There is nothing like children, supercharged after a night of poor sleep or on a whiney day, to create teaspoon moments and to exaggerate them into whopping great soup ladles.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

I join the hon. Gentleman in praising Home-Start. I have experience of using its services in Banbury and it was the only group that came and said to me, “What do you need? What can we do for you?” Every other service said, “This is what we do. Is it of any use?”

[Steve Brine]

Absolutely. There are so many similar examples throughout the country. I urge all hon. Members who do not know their Home-Start people to get to know them. They work with families, and can share the teaspoon moments when they are there, or sometimes just shine a light of perspective. When new parents are exhausted, perspective is hard to come by. My experience of seeing Home-Start at work is that it helps parents to learn to live together after children. Learning to live together is hard enough, but doing so after children is a whole new skill.

Home-Start has been demonstrated to work. Its volunteer support and positive impact on parents and families have been shown to work. A three-year research project by a team at the universities of Amsterdam and Utrecht a couple of years ago revealed that children are still benefiting up to three years after their Home-Start volunteer stopped visiting. The good thing about what Home-Start is able to do here is that it is being copied: the Incredible Years programme and the family nurse partnership are both maternal and early-years public health programmes providing ongoing, intensive support to mums and dads and their babies.

The family nurse partnership is of particular interest to me. It is welcome that the Government have recently agreed to increase the number of family nurse partnership places to 16,000 at any one time by the end of this Parliament. I saw its inspiration at work last summer in Houston, Texas, where it is called the nurse family partnership. I was there with the Justice Committee and saw the partnership at work in Harris county. We were there as part of our major inquiry into crime reduction policies and the data we were shown were very impressive. The programme is expensive but the outcomes are good, with 60% fewer arrests and 72% fewer convictions among children of mothers participating in the programme than among those of mothers in a similar demographic and income bracket who did not. The number of days babies were hospitalised was reduced by around one third among programme participants. The figures are impressive.

It goes without saying that any remarks about early intervention in the first 1,000 days would not be complete without mentioning the troubled families programme. I am a big fan, and despite some mixed messages in the June 2013 spending review, the Government gave a commitment to extend the programme through the next five-year parliamentary period and confirmed £200 million from several Departments for a wider focus in 2015-16. That is sensible. I am regularly updated by Hampshire county council and Hampshire troubled families mapping, which have confirmed that 70% of client families are located in the top 30% of wards for health deprivation in the county. That laser-like focusing at a time of shrinking resources must be right. I know that it is bearing a dividend in Hampshire, as it is throughout the country.

The early years are about the state, but they are also about the big society, the third sector—the voluntary sector—and, ultimately, about creating more stable learned environments where those early years count, so that babies have a chance of normal development. The prize for us is absolutely huge, as all hon. Members who have spoken today have said, not just in money value, but in the value of human life. Ultimately, that is what we, as Members of Parliament, are about.

14:44

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

I commend and congratulate the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom) on securing this debate. I also congratulate the hon. Member for Brighton, Pavilion (Caroline Lucas), my right hon. Friend the Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) and the right hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Burstow) on their work in developing this manifesto and promoting the ideas within it. This debate has been constructive and well-informed. Many excellent points have been made that will resonate strongly with those on both sides of this Chamber.

When the first national health service hospital opened its doors in 1948, it was conceived as part of an all-encompassing system of social security, supporting everyone in our society from cradle to grave. Only in recent years, more than 60 years on, have we have come to understand just how much that short time in the cradle—those very first few months—can ultimately decide how long, healthy and happy a life a newborn baby will enjoy.

We must do everything we can to give all babies born in Britain today the best possible start in life. That was underlined earlier this week in an open letter to The Times from 23 of the UK’s leading child health experts. They warned that, for the first time since the Victorian age, it is predicted that living standards for children will be lower than for their parents and that child mortality is still stubbornly higher in Britain than in other western European countries. They called for a greater focus on younger generations. We have heard some powerful and encouraging contributions to that debate today; I want to build on what other hon. Members have said and focus on some of the challenges that we must address. I want to focus on early intervention, maternal support and care, and general help for all mums and dads. That is by no means a comprehensive list of what I would like to cover, but it is most fitting for the debate.

All hon. Members who spoke referred to the importance of early intervention. The maxim that prevention is better than cure is one of the most enduring in public health. As the “The 1001 Critical Days” manifesto details, more than a quarter of all babies in the UK are estimated to be living in complex family situations that present heightened risks to their well-being. The sad reality is that babies are far more likely to suffer from abuse and neglect, and up to seven times more likely to die in distressing circumstances, than older children.

We have a duty to reach out to families in difficult circumstances and to maximise opportunities for them to access support. Not only is it the right thing to do, but it is the best thing for the public purse. According to the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, there is increasing evidence to show that spending on early-years intervention can yield a return on investment as high as 6% to 10%. If it is done in the right way, early intervention can save money, save lives and improve the well-being of parents and children.

An example is the pioneering work by Manchester city council and its partners. They have created a scheme in which midwives, outreach workers and health visitors work together to identify at the earliest opportunity the families most in need. It is an inspiring project, with which my hon. Friend the Member for Manchester Central (Lucy Powell), the shadow Minister with responsibility for children and child care, has been closely associated. We heard from the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire about how the programme is making a difference when it comes to registering a child’s birth.

Under the scheme, every new mother is visited eight times from about 12 weeks before the birth of their child until just before the child’s fifth birthday. Crucially, all the professionals who are supporting those mothers hold joint fortnightly meetings and can let each other know if a parent needs additional help. Their work is integrated and intelligence is shared between organisations —a very strong theme in the “The 1001 Critical Days” manifesto. It is a world away from some of the haphazard experiences of the past. Hon. Members may have heard the anecdote about how health visitors in the past would wait by the nappy aisle in supermarkets to identify expectant mothers; we must do more to encourage close working and data-sharing, so that that is no longer necessary.

[Mr Sheerman]

I totally support the work of the 1,001 group. All the work done—certainly during my chairmanship of the Select Committee on Children, Schools and Families—indicates that early intervention is vital. It is also vital that such intervention is regular, persistent and delivered by highly skilled, well-trained people. The problem is that that is expensive.

[Luciana Berger]

My hon. Friend makes knowledgeable points that, given his experience on the Children, Schools and Families Committee, he is well placed to make. The example that I shared with the House—this is separate from the 1,001 days manifesto—shows that there are many activities going on around the country to address some of the issues, but the challenge is that the activity is not happening everywhere. We need to lead from best-case examples, which is why data sharing is so vital to make a difference. Will the Minister comment on what steps the Government are taking to encourage these activities to happen throughout the country?

I am also keen for the Minister to address the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Rotherham (Sarah Champion), who is no longer in her place. She mentioned the early intervention grant, which has funded many of the programmes that we are discussing. When the fund was first introduced, it totalled nearly £3 billion, but by 2015 it will have almost halved to around £1.5 billion. We have had contributions this afternoon about Sure Start centres, many of which have relied on the funding of the early intervention grant, and it is a blow that 576 such centres have had to close their doors since the last election. The hon. Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) commented that he did not know what Sure Start was for—

[Damian Hinds]

To be clear, I did not say that—

[Mr Mike Weir (in the Chair)]

Order.

[Luciana Berger]

I will give way to the hon. Gentleman.

[Damian Hinds]

To be clear, I was talking about what happened when I was on the Education Committee, the successor Committee to the one chaired by the hon. Member for Huddersfield (Mr Sheerman). When we asked people what the purpose of Sure Start was, we got different answers, even from practitioners in the field.

[Luciana Berger]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his clarification. I apologise if I misrepresented his words.

[Mr Sheerman]

I, too, found that fascinating. When we first started looking at Sure Start children’s centres, they were concentrated in the 500 wards with the greatest poverty. We soon realised that more families in poverty were outside those 500, so we had to change the policy totally.

[Luciana Berger]

The point that I wanted to make about Sure Start, as a result of what has been said by both Government and Opposition Members, is that it is widely acknowledged that the centres have made a real difference to families. I have Sure Start centres in my constituency; Liverpool city council has gone out of its way to do everything possible to keep all centres throughout the city open—it has had to remodel and look at a hub-and-spokes model, given that we will have experienced cuts of 54% by 2016-17—all because of the centres’ importance to communities.

In one of the most deprived wards in my constituency, the Sure Start centre is giving vital support to parents in the most deprived households. It is providing meal packets for £1—fresh food with recipes—to encourage parents to cook for their children. That is making a real difference to those children’s nutrition, in particular in their early years. In another, more affluent, part of my constituency, the children’s centre is tailoring its services to the need in that area, because this ward has a high incidence of multiple births. That Sure Start centre is providing a vital support service for mothers who have twins and triplets—for parents contending with the challenges presented by a multiple birth.

Those centres are making a real difference in my constituency. Their staff—including Liz Parsons, a manager in the Picton Sure Start centre, to name just one person—provide vital hands-on support to parents, often first-time parents or parents with lots of children. The centres provide support, including parenting support, to many families in my constituency.

[Damian Hinds]

Like the hon. Lady, I pay tribute to the staff in the Sure Start centres in my constituency; they do a fantastic job. We all know that there are fantastic Sure Start children’s centres out there, but it is also worth dwelling on the fact that at the macro level we may not quite have cracked the formula. If we compare the millennium cohort study with the previous one, for the children who have been alive throughout the Sure Start period, the gap between the rich and the poor has not been narrowed at age five.

[Luciana Berger]

Towards the end of my contribution, I shall reflect on the hon. Gentleman’s points about social mobility. He commented that the gap between rich and poor might not have changed. Nevertheless, Sure Start centres have provided vital services to parents and families who might not have contended with that specific issue, but have dealt with a lot of other ones that we have discussed.

In the debate, we have not touched on health visitors, who are integral to this issue. It is welcome that the Government are committed to increasing the number of health visitors. The latest figures from the Health and Social Care Information Centre, however, show that there are 1,234 more health visitors than in April 2010, but that is less than a third of the way towards the Prime Minister’s target of 4,200 new health visitors by April 2015. With the deadline looming, will the Minister please offer some words of assurance about meeting the target?

[Andrea Leadsom]

I have talked to a lot of health visitors, and there is a concern that by letting speed be the only target, we might pile a lot of new health visitors into the system but diminish our ratio of experienced health visitors to inexperienced ones, and those trying to support new health visitors will struggle. Generally speaking, my feedback from health visitors is that they are happy that the rate of new arrivals is not as rapid as the hon. Lady might like.

[Luciana Berger]

I listened to the hon. Lady’s point about the speed of introduction, but reflecting on the experience in my area of Liverpool, the work load on our health visitors is such that they cannot provide the best service possible, because they are so swamped by the amount of visits that they have to do. I contend that there is a challenge in the work load on health visitors. Will the Minister share with us what steps her Department is taking to meet the target?

On maternal support, in particular during the months of pregnancy, with births in the UK at a 40-year high, prioritising maternity services has never been more urgent. Around 10 stillbirths happen in Britain every day, and we have one of the highest stillbirth rates: according to The Lancet, Britain is ranked 33rd out of 35 countries with similar income levels. The charity Sands has linked that to maternity care, issues to do with inappropriate risk assessments for potential mothers and low uptake of perinatal services. Given that neonatal mortality and stillbirth have been indicated as areas for improvement in the NHS mandate to 2015, will the Minister please share with us what activities her Department will undertake to lower the stillbirth rate in England?

The findings of a National Audit Office review late last year are also of concern. It found that more than half of birthing units are not meeting staffing guidelines; that more than one in 10 had to close for a fortnight or more last year; and that 28%, or nearly a third, were forced to turn away mums-to-be at the door between last April and September because of a lack of space or a shortage of midwives. We can all understand how stressful that must be for women towards the end of their pregnancy.

[Mr David Amess in the Chair]

I thank my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell) for raising the important issue of premature babies and for sharing her personal experience of having premature twins and of the importance of the neonatal care received by her sons. A parent in a similar position who had to work might struggle to balance that with visiting the hospital and developing a bond with the babies.

We all have friends or family, or know people who have been expectant mums—some people in the room have been expectant mums—so we know that a skilled midwife can make all the difference between a smooth pregnancy and a stressful one. It is deeply concerning, therefore, that the NAO has highlighted that there is a shortfall of 2,300 midwives. The hon. Member for South Northamptonshire highlighted the increase in midwives’ work loads. The Royal College of Midwives has also calculated that the gap between the number of midwives we have and the number that the NHS in England needs will not be closed until 2026.

Before the previous election, the Prime Minister promised that there would be 3,000 new midwives during this Parliament. Again, regretfully, that target is some way short of being delivered. I am aware that there are many midwives in training, but the high drop-out rate and impending retirements could mean that we face significant shortages for some time to come. We would appreciate any reassurance that the Minister can provide on that matter.

Will the Minister also comment on the training that midwives receive? We have heard from a number of Members about the importance of maternal mental health. Mental ill health is one the biggest risks to a pregnancy, with one in 10 mothers suffering a mental illness before or after birth. Last November, I asked the Under-Secretary of State for Health, the hon. Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter), what proportion of midwives were trained to provide expectant mothers with mental health support. Unfortunately, he was not able to provide a figure, but I am sure that both he and the Minister agree that we need more midwives who are confident in providing that kind of support.

We also need more specialist mother and baby mental health units. It has been estimated that as much as 50% of the UK lacks any kind of specialist perinatal mental health service. There are only 17 mother and baby mental health units across England, and they are geographically disparate. There are just two in Scotland and one in Wales, and none in Northern Ireland. As both the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire and my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian said, it is a postcode lottery.

The hon. Member for South Northamptonshire talked about the 1% of mothers who might experience a psychotic episode. That could lead to mothers being hospitalised two or three hours’ drive away from their loved ones. It could also mean that they are separated from their babies. That is good for neither the mother’s well-being nor her newborn child’s development.

I thank all those Members who have raised the importance of support for parenting. A number of Members thanked Home-Start for the work that it has done and the way in which it so helpfully supports parents. We have also heard about specific challenges on early intervention, maternal support and maternity care. However, we know that the challenge of improving early years development reaches far beyond those specific issues. The hon. Member for East Hampshire raised the issue of social mobility, for example; many social determinants extend well beyond the reach of the Department of Health. The hon. Member for South Northamptonshire suggested that the issue could be looked into more widely, perhaps at Cabinet level, and I take that point on board.

Both my hon. Friend the Member for East Lothian and the hon. Member for East Hampshire raised the issue of the importance of digital networks and social networks. They are indeed important, and I welcome the work done by Mumsnet and Netmums, but I would like to put on record the challenges there are for many mums who do not have access to the internet, or perhaps do not know how to use computers. Although digital networks are important and can help to support parents—both mums and dads—one issue that we need to look at further, which is far beyond the reach of the Department of Health, is access to the internet and to broadband, particularly for people living in rural areas. There is also the issue of being able to afford that internet access: people might not want to have to go to a public library to connect and reach out about specific personal issues. We should be thinking about those matters.

There are other issues that we should address, which again reach far wider than the remit of the Department of Health. For example, there is the problem of parents who are struggling with the cost of living, and those who are working all hours and do not have the time to be with their children because they are working all day. We must establish genuine parity of esteem between mental and physical health, across the board. We have to protect babies and children from specific dangers—just yesterday in the House of Lords, for example, there was a debate about protecting children and babies from smoke in cars. There is no better investment that we can make as a society than in our children.

[Dame Tessa Jowell (Dulwich and West Norwood) (Lab)]

I pay tribute to the hon. Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom), with whom I have had the pleasure of collaborating on the all-party group on conception to age two—the first 1,001 days. Does my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) agree that there is an increasing amount of scientific evidence on early childhood that shows the value of intervention in the first 1,000 days? Will she join me in commending the campaign to see early childhood represented in the new millennium development goals in 2015, which will benefit tiny children and their mothers, not only in this country but around the world?

[Luciana Berger]

I thank my right hon. Friend for her important contribution to this debate. She has summed up many of the earlier speeches on the importance of this issue and how vital early intervention is. Right at the start of the debate, we heard about the science relating to the difference in brain development of children who get that care, love and affection in early life, and those who do not. As we heard, that care is vital to the development of a child over their entire lifetime. I echo her remarks on the millennium development goals. This issue is important not only for us in the UK but further afield, right across the world. I support her call for early intervention to be included in the 2015 goals.

[Andrea Leadsom]

I pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Dulwich and West Norwood (Dame Tessa Jowell) for all her work on promoting early years development in the post-millennium development goals. I did not touch on that today, but she has played an enormous role. I can report that UNICEF has asked us to speak at the UN on the importance of the earliest years and how early intervention can support children, not just in this country but around the world. It is fantastic that she has been able to pop into the debate, and I commend her for all that she is doing.

[Luciana Berger]

I thank the hon. Lady for her intervention. I will now seek to conclude.

[Mr Sheerman]

My hon. Friend briefly alluded to smoking and children’s exposure to smoking in cars. There was good news this morning from the Government: there will be a free vote on the issue. Back in the mists of time, my very first private Member’s Bill was on banning children from being carried unrestrained in cars. There was a tremendous backlash against that Bill in certain parts of the House; people said that it breached human and individual rights. We won that battle, and I hope that we can win the next one. It is wrong that a child, who has no choice, has to go in a smoky environment and breathe in dreadful fumes that can affect their health for the rest of their life.

[Luciana Berger]

My hon. Friend’s intervention has given me the opportunity to expand on this serious political issue, with which we are engaging in the House at the moment. He rightly points out the opposition there was to rules on wearing seat belts. The discussions on that issue are relevant to our discussions about banning smoking in cars when children are present. When we had no rules on wearing seat belts, only 25% of the population wore one; since the introduction of the rules, more than 90% of the population wear a seat belt, and that has made a massive contribution to safe car travel.

It is worth noting that there is overwhelming public support for banning smoking in cars when children are present. Around 80% of the public think that we should deal with the issue, and it will be interesting to see what happens in the vote. It is also worth putting on record that when there was a vote on a private Member’s Bill on the issue in 2011, 22 MPs from the coalition supported it, including a current Health Minister. I welcome the free vote, and I hope that we are successful when the proposal comes before the House on, I believe, 10 February.

To conclude, a broad, holistic approach will ultimately make the difference for children, and for future generations.

15:09

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Jane Ellison)]

It is good to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Amess, and to respond to such an interesting debate.

I shall focus my remarks fairly narrowly on the subject of the debate, because I have a feeling that I will get the chance to talk about smoking in cars quite a bit in coming weeks. I have had the chance to discuss today’s subject many times with my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire (Andrea Leadsom), and her passion and knowledge have shifted parliamentary opinion in that important area. I remember sitting through a late-night debate which, unusually, attracted double-figure attendance; she has moved the dial for political discourse about the importance of early years. She has a positive and constructive relationship with several Departments’ officials, who enjoy working with her on that agenda; I think that will continue.

The debate has been fairly consensual. I accept that there is some challenge with respect to numbers to do with Sure Start, and funding issues; but, to be honest, whoever was in power would have faced the same issues over the past few years. I shall therefore focus on what we are doing in response to the manifesto “The 1001 Critical Days”. I shall try to pick up on points that have been made. I am standing in for the Under-Secretary of State for Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter), who is the lead Minister and is at present in a Bill Committee. He is sorry not to respond to the debate in person, but my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire will know that the issue is close to his heart and is the focus of much of his work. However, it is an honour for me to sit in on such an amazing debate, with so many excellent contributions.

Like the shadow spokesman, I pay tribute to the other hon. Members who contributed to the manifesto, and to the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen) for his tireless campaigning on early intervention. I have had several stimulating and fulfilling conversations with him on the subject. He is passionate about the issue. What he has done to formalise matters through the Early Intervention Foundation—and the information, knowledge and evidence base that has been established because of that—will be extremely important. Evidence is important in this context because, to pick up the point about pressure on resources, the more evidence that can be presented to show that interventions work, the easier it will be to persuade people that such interventions are a good investment of public money, when that is in relatively short supply.

A clear case has been made, and the manifesto has support from across the political spectrum. The message is clear and simple: prevention and early intervention can improve outcomes and transform the life chances of children. Several hon. Members ably explained where the costs pop up in the system when people suffer damage and how much better, safer and kinder it is to make interventions early in people’s lives, to prevent such problems. That message sits well with the Government’s pledge to improve the health outcomes of children and young people so that they become some of the best in the world. That is a challenging goal, but the Government are determined to rise to it.

I want to touch on the risks associated with pregnancy. A healthy pregnancy provides the best foundations for a healthy life. Poor diet, smoking, using illicit drugs and consuming alcohol at that time can all have an impact on the child’s later cognitive functioning and on their health and well-being. As my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire said, a fetus exposed to extreme stress in the womb will have higher levels of the stress hormone cortisol, which can create higher levels of stress later in life. There is a highly relevant example of that in another part of my portfolio. Domestic violence can peak during pregnancy and, as a very significant stress factor, it can cause the very conditions in the womb that have long-term consequences for children.

Hon. Members have articulated the early years risks very well during the debate. There is a growing consensus about the agenda and the fact that early years intervention offers the greatest opportunity to create secure, happy and healthy adults. Moving forward in accordance with that shared agenda is the key. I will mention one or two of the risk factors. Smoking in pregnancy is highly relevant to much of my work in public health. It can lead to low birth weight, which is linked with heart disease later in life. The key messages on smoking in pregnancy are getting through to many people, although not to everyone. We still have some way to go, but in 2012-13, 12.7% of mothers were smoking at delivery. That is lower than the 2009-10 figure of 14%. However, the regional variation is extraordinary. Figures that recently came across my desk showed enormous regional variation, and responding to that is a challenge that I have put to public health directors in the regions. It is a good example of the way that a regionalised public health system can focus intensely on problem areas.

Experts are still unsure exactly how much alcohol it is safe to drink during pregnancy, so the safest approach is not to drink any at that time. Drinking heavily in pregnancy can lead to low birth weight and damage brain development in the womb. Fetal alcohol spectrum disorders are a range of cognitive and functional disabilities that can be caused by exposure to alcohol in the womb. In short, smoking and drinking alcohol while pregnant can cause irreparable damage to a child and make them more susceptible to illness throughout life. The manifesto highlights the numbers of babies affected by those issues, and I reassure the House that those are on our radar.

Perhaps less obvious is the impact of events in early childhood on later health and well-being. A drive towards wider understanding of that, among parliamentarians and in local government and the voluntary sector, is very important. I think that initially it is difficult to take on board the detail of the issue, and that is why it is so important that my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire has persisted in making the case to colleagues, and explaining it in detail, with the evidence to back it up. Many of us now have a wider understanding of what may not be as intuitively grasped as messages about not smoking or drinking during pregnancy. Traumatic emotional experience in childhood can translate into a greater risk of disease and mental health problems. Many hon. Members focused on that during the debate. We have, I think, learned that the old adage that time heals all wounds is not true. Adverse events in early childhood can resonate down the years.

According to the emerging research, growing up with exposure to multiple adverse childhood events can have a lasting impact. For instance, growing up in a household where the mother is treated violently, where a parent is chronically depressed, mentally ill or suicidal, or where someone uses drugs can increase a child’s risk of a range of conditions. Those who experience multiple adverse childhood events achieve less educationally, earn less and are less healthy. All those consequences were articulated in the debate. The hon. Member for East Lothian (Fiona O'Donnell) spoke of some sad examples, and about sitting with very young children and talking about their personal experience.

One of the saddest papers that I have read as a Minister was one that I submitted to the Chair of the Select Committee on Home Affairs, about gang violence. It was about the early lives of children who, at a young age—under 10—were on the fringes of being drawn into gang violence. I set myself a challenge, before reading the attached case history, of guessing what was happening in the child’s life. Every guess I made about the factors that were present was right, and I am sure that other hon. Members would have made the same ones. The case history showed that a child much younger than 10 was already showing signs of post-traumatic stress disorder. There is a lot of emerging evidence to show that such children are far more likely to be drawn into gangs. Good work is being done, particularly in London, on understanding how to diagnose that. It all goes to support the case being made through the debate for intervening very early; otherwise, children grow used to high levels of stress and aggression.

High-quality care during pregnancy is crucial and we want women to receive excellent maternity services that focus on providing the best outcomes for them and their babies. There has been significant investment in maternity services. Since 2010 the midwifery work force has grown by 6.9 %—that is 1,380 additional midwives. I of course understand the challenge, in that there is always a call for more midwives; that is an important area. There has been £35 million of capital investment in the environment where maternity care is provided and where women give birth to their baby. We are working with NHS England to ensure that women receive better care during pregnancy, with every woman having a named midwife responsible for providing personalised antenatal and post-natal care. Women can now make more informed choices about their care. Again with the support of Health Education England, we have increased the number of midwives and are working to ensure that specialist mental health support is available in every birthing unit by 2017.

The NHS does an excellent job in nearly every case of delivering babies safely, but it is crucial, as has been highlighted, to ensure that we do more to look after mothers’ mental health. More than 10% of women will have a mental health problem or mental illness during pregnancy, and we must ensure that we provide all-round support for women to detect and treat such conditions. Again, Health Education England is taking forward work with a range of partners to ensure that training is available for health care professionals in perinatal mental health. It is working with the Nursing and Midwifery Council and the Royal College of Midwives to ensure that midwives’ undergraduate training includes a core module focusing on perinatal mental health and with the medical royal colleges to provide postgraduate training on maternal mental health by 2015.

For a relatively small number of women, specialist perinatal mental health services are required. Through maternity and children’s strategic clinical networks, NHS England is supporting the development of maternity and perinatal mental health networks, as recommended by guidelines from the National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence on antenatal and post-natal mental health. The networks will develop action plans and collaborative working to drive improvements in access to and quality of care.

[Andrea Leadsom]

As I understand it, NICE guidelines still only approve video interaction guidance, which is an effective but quite short-term intervention, and cognitive behavioural therapy as talking therapies for the perinatal period. There is a wealth of evidence that parent-infant psychotherapy, a psychodynamic form of therapy, is far more effective in parent-infant situations. As randomised controlled trials are the only acceptable evidence base to NICE, and as psychodynamic therapy does not lend itself to that, there is a bit of a chicken-and-egg situation. How do we improve the availability of specialist parent-infant mental health services if NICE will not approve them because they do not undergo randomised controlled trials?

[Jane Ellison]

If my hon. Friend does not mind, I will write to her after the debate to respond in the level of detail that she asks for, as that is not in my brief. However, I can reassure her that I think there are trials, supported by Government research funds, to consider some of the areas that she is interested in. I think that there is room to give her encouragement in that regard.

To return to the networks that I was describing, for women at risk of poor mental health during pregnancy and following childbirth, services do exist. Ministerial colleagues have visited excellent services in Blackpool, for example, that support women who have or are at risk of developing mental health or substance misuse problems in pregnancy or post-natally.

The key messages on smoking in pregnancy are also getting through. We have some way to go, but as I have said, the figure is beginning to drop. Teenage pregnancy can, of course, lead to poor outcomes for both teenage parents and their children. Teenage mothers have three times the rate of post-natal depression and a higher risk of poor mental health for three years after the birth. They are three times more likely to smoke during pregnancy and 50% less likely to breastfeed, with consequences for their children. It is imperative that we reduce the numbers of young women and girls getting pregnant and mitigate the impact of having a child when young.

The good news is that our rate of teenage pregnancy now stands at a historic 40-year low. In 2011, the last year for which we have figures, our conception rate for young women under 18 was 30.7 per 1,000, down from 35.4 per 1,000 in 2010. That is due to a lot of hard work, dedication and passion from our health care professionals, many of whose efforts have been described by Members in this debate. I pay tribute to their efforts and the important results that they are yielding.

Reducing conception by under-18s is one of a basket of indicators in the public health outcomes framework and our sexual health improvement framework, which was published in March 2013, to drive continual improvement. Despite our best efforts, though, some young women and girls will become pregnant, and we must do our best to mitigate the risks to those young mums-to-be and their babies. Several hon. Members, including my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Steve Brine), have paid tribute to the family nurse partnership, a preventive programme for vulnerable first-time mothers under the age of 20. It offers intensive and structured home visiting delivered by specially trained nurses from early pregnancy until a child is two. There are now more than 80 teams covering 91 areas across England, and the Government are committed to increasing the number of places on the programme to 16,000.

The family nurse partnership successfully engages with disadvantaged young parents, including fathers, to pick up a point mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham (Tim Loughton), who is no longer in his place. Of those who are offered the family nurse partnership, 87% enrol and a high proportion continue to engage until their child reaches their second birthday. My colleague the Under-Secretary of State for Health, the hon. Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich, witnessed—other Members have referred to this during the debate—the transformational power of the programme, and he met family nurses and their clients in London in 2013.

Thankfully, we have 30 years of evidence from the USA and elsewhere that shows that the family nurse partnership programme improves outcomes for mothers and children in the short, medium and long term. That includes health and behaviour during pregnancy, reduced child abuse and neglect, improved school-readiness for the child and improved economic prospects for the mother. That list is the mirror image of all the different threats to health and wealth that have been articulated during the debate. It shows that the impact of some of these powerful early interventions can ripple down the generations, as other hon. Members have said.

To pick up a point made at the start of the debate, such interventions have also made great savings to the public purse in health, social care and the criminal justice system. I am glad that my hon. Friend the Member for Winchester mentioned the US research. We are undertaking a large-scale independent randomised control trial that will rigorously evaluate the programme’s effectiveness in the English context, and the initial findings will be reported later this year. I am sure that hon. Members present will be interested to see that, because it will be useful to see those data expressed in an English context.

The Healthy Child programme is a universal evidence-based preventive programme to improve the health and well-being of all children and to identify and treat problems early. Effective implementation of the programme should improve many of the outcomes highlighted in the “The 1001 Critical Days” manifesto, including the strong parent-child attachment, positive parenting, better social and emotional well-being among children and care that helps to keep children healthy.

[Fiona O'Donnell]

The Minister speaks about bonding between mother, father and baby in the early days. May I draw her out on the issue of maternity and paternity pay being included in the cap on benefit spending announced by the Chancellor in his autumn statement? Will she give an undertaking that that will not lead to a freeze or a reduction in maternity and paternity pay?

[Jane Ellison]

The hon. Lady will understand that that is not in my portfolio, but I am happy to draw her concerns to the attention of colleagues in whose portfolio it rests. I undertake to do so after the debate.

The Under-Secretary of State for Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich, has asked Public Health England to commission a rapid review of the evidence base for the Healthy Child programme, with a focus on primary prevention. The Department of Health is also working with the WAVE Trust, which was instrumental in developing the evidence base for the manifesto, with the Early Intervention Foundation and with others to explore how valuable work in prevention can be built upon. We will be interested in the outcomes of that evaluation.

[Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)]

The Minister has referred to looking at the issues by drawing on data and evidence that are available in the English context. As well as sharing that, importantly in this context, will she ensure that questions in the “The 1001 Critical Days” manifesto are addressed at the level of the British-Irish Council? That would enable all eight Administrations throughout these islands who face such challenges in common to share their experience, good practice and piloting. The work could be elevated to that level rather than all the different Administrations trying to do the same things back to back.

[Jane Ellison]

The hon. Gentleman makes a good point, and I have regular dialogue on matters in my portfolio with Members of the devolved Administrations. I am happy to look into that point after the debate, because some of the lessons to be learned are universal across different countries in the UK.

There has been a lot of interest in health visitors. They and their teams lead the delivery of the Healthy Child programme, and of course they are the bedrock of our children’s public health services. They are often the first professionals to recognise that a mother is depressed or that parents are struggling with the negative effects of many sleepless nights; we have had a few descriptions of those from colleagues in this debate. Through their work, health visitors can have an impact on the well-being of the whole family. Because of their vital preventive role, the Government are committed to growing the health visitor work force by 4,200 by the year 2015 and to transforming health visiting services to improve outcomes and reduce inequalities in the nought-to-five age group.

Taking up the point about whether recruitment is on track, and weaving in the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire, we believe that we are on track. There have been a couple of challenges in one region, to which we are now responding, but the rate of increase in health visitors will increase. It is determined by training intakes, which determine the rate of qualification and entry into the profession. We are happy that that is on track. I give that assurance to the shadow Minister. The latest health visiting work force data that we have, which are from October 2013 and were published this month, show that the total number of health visitors nationally is 9,770 full-time equivalents. Overall, there are 1,678 more health visitors than the May 2010 baseline of 8,092. That is a growth of 21%, but we intend to grow that number more, as we have said, because we think it is so important and crucial to the aims of the manifesto.

On troubled families, we know that some families have multiple problems and cause problems in the community around them. I will not go into a lot of detail, but there is clearly relevance and read-across from some of the early years issues that we have been discussing in this debate. In particular, I have seen the Troubled Families programme in my area encouraging critical working together and getting everyone around the same table to consider people and families as a whole.

That programme will have done a great deal of good to embed that idea and approach as good practice for many local authorities. There is a strong read-across to the other things that we are discussing about earlier years, and in some cases, of course, they will be the same families, depending on the nature of the family. I have certainly seen in my area, and in lots of the other pilot areas, how services have embraced the opportunity to stop working in silos and consider a whole family’s needs instead. I hope that that will become orthodoxy in how we move forward with Government policy in numerous areas and in the local government approach to things.

The Government are increasing local authority budgets by £448 million over three years on a payment-by-results basis to support troubled families across England. Again, my ministerial colleague is meeting those involved in the Troubled Families programme to discuss the health contribution to this valuable programme, and he can then address some of the points to which I will draw his attention as a result of this debate.

I do not have time to go into much detail, as I am aware that I have already made a long speech, although I am drawing to the end of it. I have many points to respond to, but I wanted to touch on the points about social mobility made by my hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds), which I have heard him articulate before. He discussed how to support parents. I think that my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire was present when Alan Milburn, presenting his most recent social mobility report, urged Government and politicians generally to break what he called one of the “last taboos” of public policy, which is telling people how to be good parents and supporting them to be good parents. That is an interesting challenge for us all to consider and respond to, because it is undoubtedly difficult terrain for both Governments and individual politicians.

[Andrea Leadsom]

I would just like to make the point that although politicians attempt to say, “Family and the first couple of years are really private, and you mustn’t interfere,” often, in my experience of 15 years’ work with charities, people are actually desperate for help, and they do not know where to go. It is completely the opposite. It is not as though we were trying to ram support down people’s throats and tell them how to live; it is that they are desperate for it. I have lots of meetings with people who have set up charities to support mums who are desperately depressed or tearful or who cannot cope. They do that because they themselves went through it and there was nobody there to help them. I think it is the exact opposite. We kid ourselves if we think that we are interfering. We are not; we are simply providing support that people desperately want.

[Jane Ellison]

I think that is right. My experience mirrors my hon. Friend’s. I suppose the sensitivity is always about people being tempted to stray into saying how everybody should live their lives, but I agree with her. My experience is just the same as hers. Most people are crying out for support. I guess that the key thing is how that is delivered and how people are asked whether they would like to receive it. There are ways of doing that, and I think we are close to breaking that taboo. It is all about how the support is offered. Rather than telling people, it is about saying, “We are here to support you and we think that we can nurse you through this difficult time,” so I think she is right. Common sense dictates that that is nearly always the case, but it is not an area that Governments have previously dealt with. It is an area that people have been nervous to go into.

I am glad that my hon. Friend mentioned charities. I want to touch on some work done in the area, because giving people the best possible start in life is not only a job for parents, the NHS and Government. Charities such as the WAVE Trust—Worldwide Alternatives to ViolencE—and the Early Intervention Foundation, which is funded by the Government, are contributing to, even leading, the debate in crucial areas about early child development. The Big Lottery Fund is working with both those charities and many others on the “A Better Start” initiative, where it will invest £165 million over the next 10 years to stimulate new and innovative preventive approaches in pregnancy and the first three years of life, again to improve life chances. I congratulate it on that work, and Ministers and parliamentarians will want to keep in touch with that significant programme of work and look at the outcomes it achieves.

Before I move off charities, I pay my own tribute to Home-Start and many other charities like it. I am privileged to be the patron of Home-Start Wandsworth, so I have seen at first hand the great work that it does, which I know is mirrored up and down the country. I have spoken to many mums who said that Home-Start were the people who stood by their side when they felt they had no one else to help them. They talked about the difference that it made to them at a difficult time in their lives.

On the points about integration, we can definitely do more to look at ensuring that all those initiatives are joined up. My ministerial colleague the Under-Secretary of State for Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich, is hosting a round table on the subject of integration, with a specific focus on the early years. That will look at what more we can do to ensure that children and families get that integrated support. A number of Members have mentioned that.

That is only one part of the system, however. The challenge of data sharing was brought up in earlier contributions. The sharing of information between NHS services and across the health, education and care system underpins good integrated working. It is not really possible to do it without that, and it is important for promoting good outcomes. In recent years, there have been a number of attempts at a national level to improve information sharing, including through specific work in foundation years services.

As my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire and other Members will know, the Government commissioned Jean Gross, a former communication champion for children, to explore ongoing barriers to information sharing in early years and to identify examples of good practice. I reassure my hon. Friend that Ministers from the Department for Education and the Department of Health welcome that report and its excellent analysis of the issues on information sharing. Much local good practice is outlined in it, and we are working with places such as Wigan, Warwickshire and Hackney to move that agenda forward through the programme to introduce integrated assessment of children aged two to two and a half. We know that there is variation across local areas, but we are working to try and understand how to reduce that.

The Department for Education’s statutory guidance for children’s centres is clear that health services and local authorities should share information, such as live birth data, with children’s centres on a regular basis. The Department of Health is taking forward work with NHS England and others, including the Health and Social Care Information Centre, to explore how regular updates of bulk data on live births can be provided to local authorities, including the benefits of local sharing versus sharing nationally held data. My hon. Friend the Member for East Worthing and Shoreham said in an intervention that sometimes there is a culture of using it as an excuse. As highlighted in the Caldicott reviews and reports, we know that culture and relationships need to change, and we need to make sure that there is an understanding of the existing framework in law that supports much greater information sharing than perhaps is always undertaken.

Jean Gross’s report also made recommendations about training on information sharing. We are working with the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health and with the DFE’s strategic partner, 4Children, to explore how an e-learning package on information sharing can be developed that is accessible to and appropriate for both health and early years professionals. We are hoping to see progress there.

To summarise, system-wide change is required to achieve all of this. Each part of the system, at each level, has a vital contribution to make. As the response to the debate has illustrated, work is going on across different Departments, and how we integrate them is critical to it. All of us see the manifesto “The 1001 Critical Days” as a rallying point for all those who have an interest in ensuring that, as the Government state in their pledge, we improve the health outcomes of children and young people so that they become among the best in the world.

The manifesto comes at an exciting time, because the evidence on the importance of a healthy pregnancy and on the early years is growing. As I have said, the evidence is becoming clearer, which makes it easier to make the case. It makes it easier for those who make decisions about how to structure services to do that with the confidence that they are doing something that will make a real difference, and that the consequences of a poor start for long-term physical and mental health will be addressed. Government, the NHS, charities and others are working well together to take the agenda forward, and I know that my hon. Friend the Member for South Northamptonshire will continue to champion it in Parliament and continue to improve the understanding that we all have of this important agenda.

I pay tribute to everyone who has taken part in such a good debate. I will follow up a number of points, and I will of course report back to the Under-Secretary of State for Health, my hon. Friend the Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich, on the debate that we have had. I look forward, as do officials in the Department of Health, to ongoing, dynamic and constructive relationship working to take the objectives of this important manifesto forward into the future.

15:41

[Andrea Leadsom]

It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Amess. I, too, thank all right hon. and hon. Members for their contributions here today. This has been a very interesting debate. Some particularly different aspects of the subject have been raised. My hon. Friend the Member for East Hampshire (Damian Hinds) raised the very important question of social mobility. My hon. Friend the Member for Winchester (Steve Brine) raised the very important contribution made by Home-Start to the help for families in the vital early years.

As I said earlier, I am delighted that the right hon. Member for Dulwich and West Norwood (Dame Tessa Jowell) has come to the debate to make her own contribution on the importance of the early years, not just here in the UK but, potentially, in the post-millennium development goals. That would mean that we were looking at early years intervention right across the world. Other hon. Members have also made very valuable contributions to the debate.

I shall finish by calling on the Government and all parties to try to focus on making the perinatal period a period of holistic support for new families. There are some examples of superb practice but—rather like the situation with Sure Start children’s centres—there is no agreed customer perspective, shall we say. Mums who are pregnant come in all shapes and sizes—literally—and from all demographics: all sorts of age groups, ethnic backgrounds, social backgrounds and economic backgrounds. There are working people and non-working people. They all have varying needs, but unfortunately the provision for the crucial perinatal period tends to be one size fits all.

A woman is allocated a midwife and then she is stuck with her. If she does not like her, bad luck. She is lucky if she sees a health visitor before the baby is born, so there is no chance of bonding with someone. Someone turns up in the woman’s home. This happened to me. I was in tears at the time. Someone turned up and decided to take my baby away and give the baby a heel prick without my permission. To me, it was a case of “You’re torturing my baby!” I had to be restrained by my husband. Women who have just had a baby or are pregnant are extraordinarily vulnerable, even those of us who like to think that we have got life sorted. Also with my first-born, I remember that one day we were snowed in. He was due on 15 December, but he decided to hang around until the 29th, so having cancelled Christmas, I had to reinstate it on Christmas eve. I remember going to midnight mass and our lovely old vicar saying, “Can you imagine? There’s the Virgin Mary, sitting on a donkey, heavily pregnant.” I was thinking, “Yes, let’s not talk about this any more!”

For pregnant women, there are those extraordinary sensitivities. We need to imagine things from their viewpoint and ensure that we do not provide services at our convenience. My all-party group had an extraordinary meeting with registrars recently. The registrar in question said that it was much more convenient for the registrars if people went to the civic centre to register their babies—that it is much more convenient for registrars and therefore that is what families should continue to do. That is not good enough. We have to go to them; we should not expect them to come to us, but at the moment that is the case in almost every area of the perinatal service, even children’s centres. Far too many of them expect the families to find them: “If you don’t come to us, you’re hard to reach, so that’s your fault.” We must go to them.

I urge the Government, in everything that we do and in every policy that we put forward, to think about it from the customer’s perspective. I think that if we look at things from the viewpoint of the mum and, crucially, the dad, the baby and the siblings and think about how we can make the experience of childbirth better for them, we will have cracked it.

Question put and agreed to.

15:45

Sitting adjourned.

Written Statements

Thursday 30th January 2014 Written Statements

Thursday 30 January 2014

Serious Fraud Office (Contingencies Fund Advance)

Thursday 30th January 2014 Written Statements

[The Solicitor-General (Oliver Heald)]

I would like to inform the House that a cash advance from the Contingencies Fund has been sought for the Serious Fraud Office (SFO).

The SFO has incurred higher than anticipated expenditure and a reserve claim has been agreed by HM Treasury as part of the supplementary estimate 2013-14 process.

The advance is required to meet an urgent cash requirement on existing services pending parliamentary approval of the 2013-14 supplementary estimate. The supplementary estimate seeks an increase in both the resource departmental expenditure limit and the net cash requirement in order to settle material liabilities.

Parliamentary approval for additional resources of £19 million will be sought in a supplementary estimate for the SFO. Pending that approval, urgent expenditure estimated at £11 million will be met by repayable cash advances from the Contingencies Fund.

The advance will be repaid upon Royal Assent of the Supply and Appropriation (Anticipation and Adjustments) Bill.

City Deal

Thursday 30th January 2014 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Greg Clark)]

Following the successful completion of the first wave of city deals in July 2012, with the “core cities” the Government committed to work with a further 20 cities and their wider areas to negotiate a second wave of city deals in October 2012.

I can today inform the House that the Government and university, business and civic leaders in Oxford and Oxfordshire have reached agreement on a city deal.

The Oxford and Oxfordshire city deal will support innovation by investing in a network of innovation centres at Hanwell, Culham, Begbroke and the Oxford Bio Escalator.

It will invest in three sets of transport projects to ease congestion and make commuting times shorter, including access improvements to the Science Vale Oxford enterprise zone, the A40 approach to Oxford and improved transit on the A34.

A business support network will be established in Oxfordshire to assist growing businesses. A total of 500 additional apprenticeships will be created aimed at supplying the technical skills these businesses need.

Draft Deregulation Bill (Joint Committee's Report)

Thursday 30th January 2014 Written Statements

[The Minister for Government Policy (Mr Oliver Letwin)]

The Government are pleased to announce that their response to the Joint Committee’s report on the draft Deregulation Bill will be published later today.

The Joint Committee undertook a process of pre-legislative scrutiny on the draft Deregulation Bill from July to December 2013 and published their report on 19 December.

As Ministers with responsibility for the Deregulation Bill, my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe (Mr Clarke) and I welcome the Joint Committee’s report and would like to thank the Committee for their consideration of the draft Bill. The Government have listened carefully to the recommendations of the Committee and responded accordingly.

Markets for Government Services

Thursday 30th January 2014 Written Statements

[The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)]

The Government are determined to ensure there is a vibrant, competitive and diverse supply base for public services, with a range of providers delivering high-quality services.

Over the past few months Serco has engaged constructively with the Government following the emergence of material concerns relating to their contracts with the Ministry of Justice. Throughout this period the Government’s approach has been rigorous, and on 19 December 2013 my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Justice announced a settlement with Serco to recompense the taxpayer for £68.5 million, excluding VAT, for the overcharging found in an audit of Ministry of Justice contracts and to repay past profits of £2 million from the prisoner escorting contract.

Serco has now developed a thorough plan for corporate renewal. Following scrutiny by officials and a detailed review by the oversight group as well as our independent assurers, Grant Thornton, the Government have accepted this plan represents the right direction of travel to meet our expectations as a customer.

This does not affect any consideration by the Serious Fraud Office, which acts independently of Government, in relation to the material concerns previously identified.

However, the Government are reassured that Serco is committed to act expeditiously on any new information emerging from ongoing investigations.

The changes that Serco has already made and its commitment to go further over coming months are positive steps that the Government welcome. However, Serco’s corporate renewal is an ongoing process and the Government place a strong emphasis on the full and timely implementation of the agreed corporate renewal plan. The Crown representative, together with Grant Thornton, will continue to monitor progress as their plan is implemented, reporting to Government on a regular basis. I hope this will enable our confidence to continue to build.

Corporate Capital Gains

Thursday 30th January 2014 Written Statements

[The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)]

I am announcing today the Government’s intention to include in the Finance Bill 2014 a legislative change to the Taxation of Chargeable Gains Act 1992. This will confirm that the targeted anti-avoidance rule preventing the use of capital losses in schemes to shelter income profits from corporation tax applies to all arrangements in which a chargeable gain accrues and however the tax deduction is achieved. This change will have effect from today.

HMRC has become aware of artificial arrangements where it is argued that these rules do not apply due to the particular way in which the chargeable gain and tax deduction arise. Such an interpretation is contrary to the original intention that the rule should be of general application to ensure that a company’s capital losses are only used to relieve chargeable gains that arise from genuine commercial transactions.

The amendment will put it beyond doubt that the rule applies to all arrangements where capital losses are misused in an attempt to reduce income profits. This confirms the purpose of the rule rather than extend its intended scope.

Local Authorities (Housing Supply)

Thursday 30th January 2014 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government (Mr Eric Pickles)]

The Government have appointed Natalie Elphicke and Councillor Keith House to jointly lead the independent review into the role of local authorities in housing supply.

The review will consider the role that councils can play in helping to meet the housing needs of their local population, within the context of the need to ensure good value for money and fiscal discipline.

The review should aim to support stability in the local authority housing sector, and take as its context recent reforms such as the abolition of the housing revenue account subsidy system, which has given local authorities freedom and responsibility of running their own housing businesses.

The review will include stock holding and non-stock holding councils within its remit, and cover councils’ role in increasing supply for their communities across all tenures. Particular issues to be considered include:

how stock-holding councils are using their new freedoms under housing revenue account self-financing to support housing supply;

what more councils could do to support housing supply; including:

making maximum use of their existing asset base to support new development through asset sales;

capacity and skills issues in supporting locally-led larger-scale development;

how councils are using their own land to support their own, or others’, house building;

what innovative financing mechanisms councils have used to increase house building while ensuring value for money;

how local authorities can drive efficiency improvements in their management and development of social housing.

The review will report by the end of 2014.

The full terms of reference for the review are available at: https://www.gov.uk/government/policy-advisory-groups.

A copy is also being placed in the Library of the House.

Armed Forces Pay Review Body

Thursday 30th January 2014 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Hammond)]

I am pleased to announce that I have appointed Mr Timothy Flesher and Mrs Vilma Patterson as members of the Armed Forces’ Pay Review Body commencing 1 March 2014 until 28 February 2017. These appointments have been conducted in accordance with the guidance of the Office of the Commissioner for Public Appointments.

Afghanistan (Monthly Progress Report)

Thursday 30th January 2014 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)]

I wish to inform the House that the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, together with the Ministry of Defence and the Department for International Development, is today publishing the 33rd progress report on developments in Afghanistan since November 2013.

On 20 November, the Independent Election Commission (IEC) announced the final list of 11 candidates running in the 2014 presidential elections following the adjudication of complaints by the Independent Electoral Complaints Commission. The final candidates are Abdullah Abdullah, Qutbuddin Hilal, Abdurrab Rasoul Sayyaf, Zalmai Rassoul, Abdul Rahim Wardak, Qayyum Karzai, Ashraf Ghani Ahmadzai, Daoud Sultanzoi, Gul Agha Sherzai, Mohammad Nader Naim and Hedayat Amin Arsala. There are three female second vice-presidential candidates in the final list. The campaign period will begin on 2 February.

On 21-25 November, the text of the US/Afghan bilateral security agreement (BSA) was put to a Loya Jirga (Grand Council) for agreement. The Loya Jirga discussed the text before approving it for President Karzai to sign. President Karzai announced at the closing of the Loya Jirga that he wanted more time to negotiate the text with the US before signing. To date the BSA has not been signed.

The UN Office on Drugs and Crime’s (UNODC) Annual Opium Survey for Afghanistan was published on Wednesday 13 November. The survey reported that poppy cultivation has increased for a third consecutive year, reaching 209,000 hectares. Cultivation in Helmand increased by 34% to 100,693 hectares.

The International Development Secretary visited Afghanistan in November and announced £18.5 million of new programme funding, some of which will be focused on promoting women’s rights. This funding includes £8 million additional support to support the 2014 presidential and provincial elections and 2015 parliamentary elections, bringing the total amount of UK aid for elections to £20 million. The UK is one of the leading donors supporting the electoral process and democracy organisations.

On 16 December, the Prime Minister visited Camp Bastion to thank troops for their continued efforts and to see first hand the progress in the performance of the Afghan National Security Forces (ANSF) and UK draw-down activity. While emphasising the challenges that Afghanistan still faces, the Prime Minister paid tribute to UK armed forces and stated that they can

“come home with their heads held high”.

The Prime Minister was also accompanied by the retired England international footballer, Michael Owen and announced a new UK/Afghan football partnership.

The Defence Secretary visited Afghanistan on 9 November. During his visit he met President Karzai, the Afghan Minister of Defence, Bismullah Mohammadi, and the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) Commander, General Dunford. He was also joined by His Royal Highness the Duke of York on 10 November as part of a poignant Remembrance day service which was held in Camp Bastion to pay respects to all those who have been killed while on operations in Afghanistan.

On 5 November, Warrant Officer Ian Fisher of 3 Mercian Regiment was killed following a joint UK and Afghan national civil order police patrol, which was attacked by a suicide vehicle-borne improvised explosive device (IED) on the main national highway, Route 611 near Nahr-e Saraj. A further four UK soldiers were wounded in action. On 23 December, Captain Richard Holloway of the Royal Engineers died after coming under enemy fire while on operations. Their deaths are a stark reminder of the incredible sacrifices made by our armed forces. The deaths of Warrant Officer Fisher and Captain Holloway bring the total number of British fatalities on operations in Afghanistan in 2013 to nine.

I am placing the report in the Library of the House. It will also be published on the gov.uk website (www.gov.uk/government/publications/afghanistan-progress-reports).

Ukraine

Thursday 30th January 2014 Written Statements

[The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)]

I wish to update the House on the situation in Ukraine and the Government’s response.

Peaceful protests began in Kiev on the evening of 21 November 2013, as a result of the announcement by the Government of Ukraine that they would delay signature of the EU-Ukraine association agreement. The protests spread and turned violent, particularly after 16 January 2014, when the Ukrainian Parliament passed a series of “anti-protest” laws in a vote that was flawed. These laws limited the right to protest and the democratic space in Ukraine. There have been a number of deaths and, worryingly, a number of activists have also disappeared. The Ukrainian authorities have made hundreds of arrests and there has been evidence of mistreatment of protestors by the authorities. Journalists seem to have been disproportionately targeted by the security forces.

Working closely with our international partners, the United Kingdom has called for calm on all sides throughout the protests. We have also made it clear to the Government of Ukraine that they bear particular responsibility to refrain from violence. The Foreign Secretary made these points to the Ukrainian Foreign Minister on 24 January. He also told him that the laws passed on 16 January called into question Ukraine’s democratic course. I was pleased to see on 28 January that the Ukrainian Parliament voted to repeal those laws. I hope steps can now be taken to address the underlying causes of the protests.

This is now a crucial time for Ukraine, and I will continue to urge the Government and the opposition to find a compromise acceptable to all sides, that allows the Ukrainian people the secure, prosperous and democratic future they deserve.

I would like to pay tribute to the overwhelmingly peaceful nature of the demonstrations in Ukraine. The United Kingdom will continue to monitor the situation and make it clear to those concerned that any restrictions on fundamental rights or abuse of basic human rights by the authorities will have serious consequences for the relationship between Ukraine and the United Kingdom. We are also clear that there is no place for violence, and that all sides should focus on dialogue and confidence building as a basis for finding a way forward.

Charging Principles Response Document

Thursday 30th January 2014 Written Statements

[The Minister for Immigration (Mr Mark Harper)]

People who need permission to visit the UK and those who want to live, work or study here must pay a fee. It is important that we seek input into how we ensure that those who benefit directly from the immigration system and enhanced border control contribute appropriately to its costs in the future.

A targeted consultation looking at charging principles was held between 11 November and 3 December 2013. The consultation sought views on how the Home Office charges customers and the services it provides.

Views were sought from stakeholders who have an interest in the way fees are set, on the consistency and complexity of fees and on premium services. We also requested views on proposals on administrative reviews and refunds and how the Home Office interacts with third parties.

Responses to the consultation have been reflected in fee proposals for 2014 where possible and these will be laid in Parliament shortly. Other issues raised as part of the consultation will be considered over the next 12 months.

A copy of the consultation response document has been placed in the Library of the House and on the Home Office website.

Justice and Home Affairs Council

Thursday 30th January 2014 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)]

The Informal Justice and Home Affairs (JHA) Council was held on 23 and 24 January in Athens. I attended the interior day on 24 January on behalf of the United Kingdom. My right hon. Friend the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice was unable to attend the justice day due to commitments in Parliament, but he was represented by a senior official. The following items were discussed.

The justice day began with a discussion of the future development of the justice and home affairs area. There was widespread support among member states for implementation and consolidation of existing EU legislation, mutual recognition, exploiting new technologies, and greater coherence between internal and external EU justice and home affairs activities. Fundamental rights and minimum criminal procedural standards were also a theme for many member states. The UK supported concentrating on the implementation of existing EU law rather than creating new legislation, and argued against further harmonisation. The presidency concluded that mutual recognition should remain the basis of judicial co-operation and that existing legislation needed to be implemented and codified. It also said that there was a need to make full use of e-Justice and new technologies, and to have much greater coherence between internal and external EU JHA work.

Next, the Commission set out its package of measures on procedural rights in criminal law. The chair of the European Parliament’s LIBE Committee said the package would be a priority for the new European Parliament. There were mixed views from those member states who spoke in response, with support expressed in principle but some concerns raised about the detail of what the package would mean in practice.

Over lunch, the presidency asked for views on the proposed amendments to the European small claims procedure regulation. The UK joined the majority of member states in agreeing that the threshold should rise but there was a difference of opinion about what the new level should be. Most also agreed with the greater use of electronic communication methods, provided member states retained some discretion in their use. Although not raised by the presidency, some member states also expressed concerns about the proposed changes to the cross-border restriction and the introduction of a cap on fees.

After lunch there was a discussion on data protection and the issue of international transfers of personal data. There was broad support among member states for the principle of extending the rights of EU residents to third countries where possible but also concern among some delegations, including the UK, about the lack of an effective enforcement mechanism outside the EU, the potential for controllers to be confronted by conflicting legal obligations and a lack of certainty for data subjects about their precise rights. The UK maintained that the focus of effort should be on chapter 5 of the draft regulation, and its rules on international data transfers which are enforceable within the EU. Nonetheless, the presidency concluded that Justice Ministers agreed to the geographical scope of the proposed regulation while highlighting that there were issues about enforceability outside the EU. Further discussions will now take place at the technical level.

The interior day began with the presidency referring to the tragedy earlier in the week off the island of Farmakonisi in which a number of migrants died. The Commission (Malmström) expressed its concern about the loss of life.

The first session concentrated on terrorism and border security, including links between terrorism and border security, the “smart borders” package and preventing the movement of fighters to and from conflict zones.

The Commission also described the content of its communication on countering radicalisation and violent extremism. Member states and the EU’s counter-terrorism co-ordinator (De Kerchove) broadly welcomed the communication. A large number of member states stressed the importance of making progress on EU passenger name records (PNR) and called upon the European Parliament to unblock it.

The UK argued that EU PNR was essential to enable authorities to track the movements of terrorists across borders. The UK also suggested that other member states consider a system using advance passenger information (API) data to implement a “no fly” system, as we do. On smart borders, the UK stressed the need for joined up co-operation with third countries, in particular Turkey. Finally, the UK offered to share its experience of legislation to prevent people travelling to conflict zones for terrorist purposes.

The Commission stated that it intends to review the implementation of the framework decision on terrorism. Several member states were willing to look at amending the EU’s legislation on terrorism, in particular in the light of new legislation at national level.

The presidency concluded by calling for the use of all available tools to combat terrorism, in particular EU PNR and better use of the SIS II system; the smart borders package and better co-operation with third countries also needed to be stepped up.

The second session focused on the future development of the JHA area where the presidency introduced its paper and underlined the importance it attached to the strategic guidelines being clear about the need for burden sharing in the migration field, and solidarity with those member states under the most pressure.

The Commission said that the strategic guidelines on the future of the JHA area needed to take account of a range of new security and migration challenges. There was also a need to step up work on counter radicalisation and a number of serious crime areas, including trafficking in human beings and cybercrime. The European Asylum Support Office had an important role in supporting some member states to deal with excessive pressures on their systems. These issues would be considered in more depth at DG Home’s conference on the future of the JHA area on 29 and 30 January.

The UK highlighted that burden sharing was not the solution and that it would simply increase the pull factor. Nor should we call into question the Dublin system, which had only recently been strengthened. Instead, there was a need to strengthen the external border and reduce illegal immigration into the EU through practical co-operation, with a focus on returns and reducing abuse of migration and asylum systems. The UK stated that future JHA priorities should include better exchange of criminal records as well as action to tackle trafficking in human beings and modem slavery, where the UK was introducing new legislation.

The UK argued that the strategic guidelines should address the issue of abuse of free movement; in particular the way in which illegal third country migrants and criminals exploit free movement to circumvent controls on immigration. This was core JHA business and had previously been covered in the Stockholm programme.

In conclusion, the presidency called upon the Commission to listen to member states’ views in preparing its communication. There would be a further discussion at the March JHA Council.

Deaths of Service Personnel (Inquests)

Thursday 30th January 2014 Written Statements

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Simon Hughes)]

I join the Under-Secretary of State for Defence, with responsibility for defence personnel, welfare and veterans, my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), in making the latest of our two Departments’ joint statements to the House, reporting progress with inquests into the deaths of service personnel on active service overseas. First, we record our deepest gratitude to our service personnel in all their skill, professionalism and courage on behalf of us all. We remember those who have given their lives, and we think of their families and their loved ones.

In this statement we provide information on coroner investigations and inquests which are being conducted by the senior coroners for Oxfordshire, for Wiltshire and Swindon and for other coroner areas in England and Wales. The statement gives the position at 23 January 2014.

We have placed tables in the Libraries of both Houses to supplement this statement. The tables contain information about the status of all current cases, including whether a board of inquiry or a service inquiry has been or is to be held.

As reported in the last statement, Judge Peter Thornton QC, the Chief Coroner for England and Wales, has created a group of 11 coroners all of whom have received specialist training to conduct coroner investigations and inquests into some service personnel deaths relating to active service, including preparation and training for active service. The Ministry of Defence’s defence inquests unit (DIU) assists coroners to complete service personnel inquests as thoroughly and as quickly as possible, and will continue working with the Chief Coroner and the specialist coroners.

As previously reported, the Chief Coroner and the Lord Advocate now have in place an agreed protocol to enable deaths of service personnel killed abroad on active duty to be investigated in Scotland where this is appropriate. This will facilitate the provisions in section 12 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009.

Once more we express our warm gratitude to all those who help bereaved families through the inquest process. We thank the Chief Coroner, coroners and their staff who are carrying this work forward.

Most repatriations of service personnel who have died overseas have been to RAF Lyneham in Wiltshire and, currently, RAF Brize Norton in Oxfordshire. Since October 2007, the Ministry of Defence and the Ministry of Justice have made extra funding available to the coroners in Wiltshire and Swindon and in Oxfordshire. The central funding enables those coroners to take the service personnel inquests forward in balance with the local caseload of the coroner area.

Current status of inquests

A further five inquests into the deaths of service personnel on operations in Afghanistan have been concluded since our last statement. In total there have been 598 inquests into the deaths of service personnel in Iraq and Afghanistan or who have returned to the UK with injuries sustained on active service and have sadly died here. In three cases no formal inquest has taken place. Two of these deaths were taken into consideration at inquests into other deaths in the same incidents. In the third case, a serviceman died from his injuries in Scotland and it was decided not to hold a fatal accident inquiry.

Open inquests

As of 23 January there are 26 outstanding open coroner investigations. Of these:

Three are under six months old;

Six are under nine months old;

Seven are under 12 months old;

12 are under 18 months old;

and 14 are over 18 months old.

The Ministry of Defence’s DIU target for completing inquests is 12 months from the date of death to inquest where no separate service inquiry (SI) is held, and 18 months where an SI is held. By way of comparison, the average time taken to complete all inquests in England and Wales in 2012 was 26 weeks.

Deaths in Afghanistan

As at 23 January 2014, 23 coroner investigations are open into the deaths of service personnel in Afghanistan.

The senior coroner for Wiltshire and Swindon has retained nine of these, and the senior coroner for Oxfordshire has retained four. Jurisdiction in the remaining 10 coroner investigations has been transferred to senior coroners for areas closer to the next of kin. Three hearing dates have been listed.

Deaths of service personnel who returned home injured

Three coroner investigations are open concerning the deaths of service personnel who returned home injured and have sadly died from their injuries. Three hearing dates have been set.

We will continue to inform the House of progress.

Project Management

Thursday 30th January 2014 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr Patrick McLoughlin)]

I have today given the Information Commissioner a certificate under section 53 of the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (“the Act”) both as it applies for the purposes of the Act itself, and as it applies to the Environmental Information Regulations (EIR) 2004 (“the regulations”) by reason of regulation 18(6). This certificate relates to the Information Commissioner’s decision FER0467548 of 6 June 2013 (“the decision notice”). That decision notice found that the Cabinet Office had failed to comply with its obligations under the EIR in refusing to disclose a project assessment review (“PAR”) report concerning High Speed 2 (“HS2”), the project for a high-speed rail link between London, Birmingham, the east midlands, Sheffield, Leeds and Manchester.

The consequence of my giving the Information Commissioner this certificate is that the Information Commissioner’s decision notice, which requires the November 2011 Major Projects Authority project assessment review report to be disclosed, ceases to have effect.

A copy of the certificate has been laid before each House of Parliament. I have additionally placed a copy of the certificate and a detailed statement of the reasons for my decision in the Libraries of both Houses, the Vote Office and the Printed Paper Office.

My decision to exercise this power of veto in this case was not taken lightly. I have taken into account the statement of Government policy on the use of the Executive override as it relates to information falling within the scope of section 35(1) of the Act.

I have taken into account the views of Cabinet, Ministers and the Information Commissioner, in considering both the balance of the public interest in disclosure and non-disclosure and whether this is an exceptional case. My view is that the public interest favours non-disclosure. I have also concluded that this constitutes an exceptional case and that the exercise of this power of veto is warranted.

In summary, the major projects review was conducted to inform the development of the HS2 project. The public interest in ensuring that projects of this scale, importance and cost are properly controlled and overseen is very high indeed. The assurance of confidentiality is important in the conduct of the review. In my view, there is nothing in the nature or content of this particular report which outweighs that strong public interest against disclosure.

A detailed explanation of the basis on which I arrived at the conclusion that the veto should be used is set out in my statement of reasons.

House of Lords

Thursday 30th January 2014 Lords Chamber

Thursday, 30 January 2014.

11:00

Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Leicester.

Royal Assent

Thursday 30th January 2014 Lords Chamber

11:07

The following Acts were given Royal Assent:

Mesothelioma Act

Local Audit and Accountability Act

Transparency of Lobbying, Non-Party Campaigning and Trade Union Administration Act

European Union (Approvals) Act

Hertfordshire County Council (Filming on Highways) Act

Cyclists: Safety

Thursday 30th January 2014 Lords Chamber

Question

11:07

Asked by

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they propose to take action to promote the safety of cyclists.

[Lord Popat (Con)]

My Lords, the Government take all road safety, including cycle safety, very seriously and have committed £278 million of funding directly for cycling. Furthermore, the department has made it considerably easier for local authorities to implement a 20 miles per hour speed limit, Trixi mirrors, new designs of advanced stop lines and other highway measures to support cycle safety. We also continue to work with the haulage industry to drive up vehicle standards and awareness of vulnerable road users.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con)]

I thank the Minister very much for that response, which is very encouraging. Many of us wish to encourage safe cycling. In that context, is the Minister in a position to seek to secure a review of all the measures relating to cycling safety—restrictions on heavy goods vehicles, cycling lanes, the 20 mile an hour zone that he mentioned and the vexed question of cycling helmets—and involve in that review cycling organisations, motoring organisations and other relevant bodies?

[Lord Popat (Con)]

My Lords, we are continuously reviewing a number of safety measures. On cycle helmets, this week I had a brief discussion with the Secretary of State in the presence of our Minister for cycling, my honourable friend Robert Goodwill. Our approach is non-legislative—we do not want to make cycle helmets compulsory. We would rather encourage and support people to wear helmets for safety. It is not good to burden cyclists. We would rather see more cyclists on our roads and cycling safely.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I was pleased to hear the Minister's comments on cycle helmets, because that is not the issue that needs to be addressed. He said that he was encouraging local authorities to spend more money on cycling. Will he confirm that there will be some ring-fenced money for cycling, as local authorities’ resources are very stretched? Will he further confirm that much of that money will be put towards better use of road space for separate cycle lanes so that cyclists can feel safe in respect of other road users?

[Lord Popat]

My Lords, the investment in cycling safety in any area depends on the local authority, but we have allocated £278 million of funding and are spending double the amount in this Parliament compared to the last one. Local authorities make their own assessment of dangerous cycling spots in their areas and can apply for cycle safety funds. With regard to cycle lanes, new roads are designed in such a way as to take cyclist safety and cycle lanes into account.

[Lord Bradshaw (LD)]

Will my noble friend give us some indication of how best practice in the world of cycling is actually applied? Do the Government encourage cycling? What do they do, or is it left to local authorities and charities?

[Lord Popat]

My Lords, we need to see more cycling and safer cycling. Hence, we have allocated funds for local authorities to make it as safe as possible. We encourage cycling and want to see more cyclists on our roads. It is the best and cheapest means of transport.

[Lord Aberdare (CB)]

My Lords, as both a cyclist and a motorist, I am often struck by the number of cyclists riding with no lights after dark, creating a hazard both for themselves and for others. What educational or other steps can the Minister take to improve the standards of cycling behaviour and to ensure that, where necessary, the law is enforced equally for cyclists and motorists?

[Lord Popat]

My Lords, lately there have been conflicts and hostility between the cyclist and the motorist. The Government are doing everything possible, along with the Mayor of London and Transport for London. We have launched a THINK! campaign for motorists and cyclists to eliminate those problems.

[Baroness Sharples (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that the safety of pedestrians is equally important?

[Lord Popat]

My Lords, pedestrians should expect to be able to use the pavement and our roads safely, without any collision or confrontation with cyclists. Where cyclists cause problems, it is a matter for the police to take the necessary action. We want to see safe cycling, not dangerous cycling. The noble Baroness raises a very important point about pedestrians, who do sometimes have problems with cyclists, and the Government are taking the necessary action through the police to make sure that bad, dangerous or careless cycling on our pavements is prohibited.

[Lord Davies of Oldham (Lab)]

My Lords, the greatest danger to cyclists, particularly in our towns, comes from heavy goods vehicles, which are responsible for 20% of cycling deaths, and a much greater percentage in London. Will the Minister note that the Mayor of London is at present berating the Government for their failure to accelerate actions in Europe to make European-wide provision for safety in terms of heavy good vehicles having the necessary equipment to see cyclists more readily? Will the Minister also join in Labour’s campaign to make cycling safe by addressing problems with heavy goods vehicles?

[Lord Popat]

My Lords, the differences between the Mayor of London and the Government on heavy goods vehicles cropped up this morning in the papers. I do not have a briefing on that subject but would be very happy to write to the noble Lord. We work continuously with a number of stakeholders, including the haulage industry, to make heavy goods vehicles safer. We have introduced Trixi mirrors and passenger left-hand side mirrors, and we will introduce sidebars for lorries. A number of other measures have also been taken, including written and oral tests for haulage drivers. However, we have to wait for what we call the cycle delivery plan, which will take a number of factors into account and is due out in autumn this year.

[Lord Geddes (Con)]

My Lords, following up the supplementary question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Aberdare, does my noble friend agree that one way of improving cycling safety is to persuade cyclists to obey the law of the land?

[Lord Popat]

I thoroughly agree with my noble friend.

NHS Property Services Ltd

Thursday 30th January 2014 Lords Chamber

Question

11:15

Asked by

[Lord Warner]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the performance of NHS Property Services Ltd in disposing of surplus properties and operating within their working capital.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe) (Con)]

My Lords, NHS Property Services is on target to dispose of 97 properties by 31 March 2014 and a further 100 properties by 31 March 2015. The department has provided the company with a £350 million flexible working capital loan facility, of which £271 million had been drawn down as at 27 January 2014. This working capital support is in line with the department’s expectations for a start-up company of this size and complexity.

[Lord Warner (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his Answer, but what action has been taken to improve the performance of this company in controlling its costs? What action has been taken to reduce its running costs, given the large number of staff that it inherited, and what action has been taken to improve the professional competence of those staff and to collect bad debts, which have been a rising problem for this organisation?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, on administration costs, the company is already reviewing the way in which its strategic asset management and facilities management functions are structured. It is probably inevitable that the consolidation of 161 PCT and strategic health authority estates into one will throw up duplication, overlap and operational policies that conflict. These all need to be rationalised and a commercial ethos introduced. It is vital that the skills are imported into the organisation to match that challenge.

[Lord Mawson (CB)]

My Lords, for the past six years, we in St Paul’s Way in Tower Hamlets have been pursuing the Government’s policy of integration in health services, bringing together a school, housing, health and community services centre on one street. I was asked to lead this project following a murder and considerable racial violence on this housing estate. The overall transformation project has been very successful, and I must declare an interest. However, the primary care premises elements have stalled and we are going backwards in terms of dental outreach facility. Can the Minister explain how NHS England engages with NHS Property Services, the CCG, local GPs and local partners to deliver in an effective and timely manner the kind of innovative and integrated premises we all agree are essential?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I pay tribute to the work that the noble Lord does. However, it is important to understand that the decision as to whether a property in the NHS Property Services portfolio is surplus to requirements and should therefore be sold resides with the commissioners; that is, NHS England and clinical commissioning groups. It is up to the commissioners how they wish to utilise the estate.

[Lord Brabazon of Tara (Con)]

Is my noble friend aware of the situation of Putney Hospital, which closed about 15 years ago and has only recently been sold to Wandsworth Borough Council, but is still undeveloped?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I am not aware of the detail of that particular case, but I will gladly write to my noble friend about it.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer noble Lords to my interests in the register; I should have done that yesterday on another health Question, for which I apologise to the House. Can the Minister confirm that the chairman of this organisation resigned early, that capital money was raided to cover a revenue shortfall and that, only months after the organisation formally started, an investigation has been mounted by the National Audit Office? Given that the shares in this company are owned by Ministers, will Ministers take responsibility and can the noble Earl confirm that this was forecast in the NHS risk register, which the Government have not yet published?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the noble Lord has painted rather a black picture of the company, which we believe has got off to an extremely good start, contrary to his impression. The company’s former chair asked to step down six months earlier than planned because the company had completed the transition phase early, and it was agreed that a chair with a different skill set was needed to oversee the rationalisation of the company.

As regards the company’s cash needs, we made £350 million available to the company as a working capital loan. That was planned some six months ago and was needed in large part due to the slow payment of invoices by the company’s customers, many of whom were themselves new organisations set up as part of the reforms, so it is not altogether surprising that cash flow initially was slow, but the situation is improving.

[Lord Colwyn (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend tell us what efficiencies and successes NHS Property Services has actually made?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, it has been a good start for the company. It has generated £22 million from sales of surplus assets and savings of £2 million a year on the running costs of those disposed properties. The company is also harnessing economies of scale—for example, savings to date of £1.2 million by standardising the procurement of electricity across the whole estate. The company is now exploring how to make savings across other utilities and services, such as legal services.

[Lord Turnberg (Lab)]

My Lords, following the response to my noble friend Lord Hunt’s question, can the noble Earl tell us why the National Audit Office has decided to conduct an investigation so soon after the establishment of this organisation?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the National Audit Office is indeed looking at the company—only to assure us and itself that the company is properly organised and structured. We welcome that, as does the company. There was no sinister purpose or concern underlying that process; it is perfectly normal and natural.

[Baroness Manzoor (LD)]

My Lords, can the Minister confirm best value for money on all properties sold and that there has been proper consultation with local organisations on all NHS estates?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, I can assure my noble friend of that. The company ensures best value by marketing through an arm’s-length open market process, which ensures that the market value is achieved in a sale. Where necessary, the sale price is supported by a district valuer or other third-party independent valuation.

[Baroness O'Cathain (Con)]

My Lords, I ask my noble friend: when people are appointing chairmen to such organisations, could they look at their skill sets in advance rather than getting rid of them because of their lack of skill sets?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, it is important to understand that the chairman who has stepped down had a very good set of skill sets, but it is not the skill set that we now need to take the company forward. The task at the beginning was to consolidate a very complex portfolio of properties, and that was done very successfully. The task now is different: it is to manage those properties effectively and to get maximum value for the taxpayer for the properties that are sold.

Broadband and Mobile Coverage

Thursday 30th January 2014 Lords Chamber

Question

11:23

Asked by

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what progress is being made with the rollout of broadband and mobile coverage across the United Kingdom.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble (Con)]

In October 2013, superfast broadband was available to 73% of premises—up from 46% in 2010. By the summer of this year, an additional 40,000 premises a week will have superfast broadband available to them. The aim is to reach 95% of premises by 2017. More than 99% of UK premises are covered by one or more mobile networks. All four mobile network operators are rapidly rolling out 4G mobile broadband.

[Baroness Neville-Rolfe (Con)]

My Lords, truly comprehensive broadband offers a unique opportunity to create a vibrant national market by increasing competition and access for small businesses and consumers and by helping economic development. I thank my noble friend for his answer, but can we be more ambitious and set a target date of, say, 2015, for achieving comprehensive broadband coverage and eliminating those “not spots”—a rather ugly new term—throughout the whole of the UK?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, the UK broadband impact study found late last year that for every £1 the Government invest in broadband, the UK economy will benefit by £20. The broadband infrastructure will have a very positive impact on the growth of the economy and across communities within the country. Indeed we are ambitious. The Government have invested a further £250 million, in addition to the initial £530 million and, even more recently, £10 million in a scheme to reach out to the most remote areas.

[Lord Winston (Lab)]

My Lords, I declare as an interest my employment at Imperial College and my connection with the outreach educational facilities at the college. In proceeding with all alacrity with broadband, will the Minister take into account the huge need for educational fast transfer, which is going to be of growing importance in education? Increasingly, young people use the web much more than they use television, and it will be an important educational facility, both for universities and indeed for schools.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I entirely agree with the noble Lord. The education sector is one where superfast broadband is going to be very important indeed. I am very pleased to report that 43 of the 44 projects involved in the rural broadband scheme are now in delivery. One more will be signed up shortly in Northern Ireland. This is all about rolling out as much as we can, to as much of the country as possible, as fast as possible, so that all communities and all age groups can benefit from this advance.

[Lord Avebury (LD)]

My Lords, has my noble friend seen the report that nearly half a million children of school age have no access to broadband whatever and that this is affecting their achievement in education? What steps will the Government take to deal with this appalling phenomenon?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

I very much hope that if my noble friend were posing this question in 18 months’ time, we would have a different result. Particularly the rural broadband scheme which is reaching out to remote areas, but also the super-connection for the 22 cities, is all about providing to schools and businesses the opportunity to take advantage of the internet.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will know that there has recently been a damning NAO report which identified that, far from promoting market competition, BT is now expected to win all of the 44 contracts on broadband. What are the Government doing to intervene on this issue, given that the NAO report also says that it does not have a strong assurance that the costs, the take-up assumptions and the extent of contingency contained in the BT bids are reasonable? What is being done to get value for money for the taxpayer on this issue?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I should first declare that I own a few BT shares—I emphasise, a very few.

BT is in that situation because Openreach has so much of the infrastructure. There are arrangements and regulatory environment requirements through Ofcom on price and also on other operators using BT property. There are very important safeguards for the consumer through Ofcom, and that is why we are in the right position.

[Lord Inglewood (Con)]

My Lords, while welcoming the extra money that my noble friend has explained to the House, will he tell the House whether the additional rollout will take place in a more flexible and competitive manner than has hitherto characterised the rollout thus far?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, I certainly think that the rollout is gathering pace in those parts of the country that have not had the advantage that other parts have. We certainly want to ensure that the Government’s investment, and indeed the commercial investment, is sufficiently flexible that as many people as possible gain advantage as soon as possible.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

Will the Minister say when Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly will get this? I thought they were a priority area. They are a rural area and they should be a priority, but the Scilly Isles do not even have 3G yet.

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

That is very interesting. I will look at it in even more detail because, funnily enough, I was meeting some people from Cornwall only two days ago, who said that in fact Cornwall has been very successful and that there is quite a good degree of capacity there because it has a great tourist interest. There has been a great increase in the number of visitors, and we need to accommodate that. However, I will look into that because one of the assurances I had was that Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly were well provided for.

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

Is my noble friend aware that in many rural communities, from Droxford in Hampshire to Harbottle in Northumberland, there is great uncertainty about their potential access to speedier broadband and the speeds that they will experience in future? Can he tell us what further plans the Government have to improve communications with these communities, and whether they have the funding in place to reach 90% of households by 2015?

[Lord Gardiner of Kimble]

My Lords, this is technical, but we believe that virtually all homes and businesses will have access to standard broadband by the end of the current intervention, which is next year. That means being able to use iPlayer and e-mail, and having normal transactions. Certainly, the rural broadband scheme is to ensure that all parts of the country, from the Highlands and Islands to the Isles of Scilly, will all gain the benefit of it.

Employment: Private Sector Jobs

Thursday 30th January 2014 Lords Chamber

Question

11:31

Asked by

[Lord Harrison]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, in the light of the report by the Centre for Cities in respect of the proportion of private sector jobs created in London, what steps they are taking to rebalance the economy across the United Kingdom.

[Lord Newby (LD)]

My Lords, the Government are taking a number of steps to ensure that the recovery is balanced across the UK through local enterprise partnerships, enterprise zones, city deals and growth deals. The latest figures show an increase in private sector employment of 928,000 outside London over the past three years, compared to 307,000 in London over the same period, so nearly 80% of all private sector employment growth has come from outside London.

[Lord Harrison (Lab)]

My Lords, according to the recent report, most of the new jobs have come from London and the south-east. Does the Minister share my concern about that? Does he understand that concern against a background of declining exports, a parlous balance of payments situation and the matter of small businesses having access to finance in order to grow jobs still not having been resolved? How will we rebalance the economy and how and when will we know that the economy has indeed been rebalanced?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, there are a number of measures but one of the key things is what is happening to employment and unemployment regionally. In the past quarter, unemployment fell more quickly in Scotland, Wales and four English regions than it did in London. There is big growth in a number of regions outside London, which is extremely welcome.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, when it comes to rebalancing, is my noble friend aware that more than 40% of our export earnings come from the services sector, at which we are extremely good? Manufacturing is doing extremely well but services are doing very much better. Can he assure us that the Government will do everything to reinforce and encourage this sector, particularly in international dealings in an increasingly digitalised and networked world where services are the main growth area?

[Lord Newby]

Absolutely, my Lords, and in a number of the major trade delegations that the Prime Minister and other senior Ministers have undertaken in recent times, promoting services has been uppermost in their minds. One of the great strengths of the UK in terms of professional services is that the standards we set here through bodies such as those for chartered accountants and the legal bodies have a worldwide reputation, which underpins the credibility of British companies seeking to sell their services internationally.

[Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that in the north-east there is still a long way to go? Last week’s figures on unemployment showed that the north-east is the region where unemployment has not gone down. The Government’s action in local government finance—putting more money into the least deprived areas and taking it from the most deprived areas—means that the most deprived are seeing cuts of 25% in the services that are critical for those who are suffering from the poor economic position. We do not moan in the north-east—we are proud of it—but it is about time the Government recognised that there are still challenges and that they have a responsibility.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the Government recognise that there are still challenges and that we have a responsibility. That is why, for example, the Government have concluded city deals with Newcastle and Tees Valley and are helping those cities grow and why the industrial strategy around the automotive industry has had such a beneficial effect on Nissan’s employment in Sunderland.

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that the inward investment arm of UKTI has no regional targets? Would it not be a good idea if it did? Otherwise it can fulfil its national targets by bringing inward investment into London and the south-east.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, that is an interesting idea, and I will pass it on to colleagues in BIS. While in the past year there was a 22% rise in inward investment overall, which bucked a downward trend internationally, there was an increase in FDI of 191% in Wales and 41% in Northern Ireland, so it is not the case that all benefit of growth and inward investment is coming to London and the south-east.

[Baroness Donaghy (Lab)]

My Lords, as the Minister knows, earnings are not keeping up with prices and the housing stock in London is not keeping up with demand. How will his Government protect the losers in this equation who far outnumber the winners?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I do not agree with that basic proposition. I do not think the losers far outnumber the winners. I remind the noble Baroness that there was an increase in employment of some 450,000 in the past 12 months. All those people are winners. Many people on modest incomes have benefited by several hundred pounds as a result of the increase in the income tax threshold. There are very many winners already, and as the economy continues to grow, there will be a lot more.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

Does my noble friend accept that past economic recoveries have always started in London and the south-east and they then spread to the rest of the country? The noble Lord, Lord Harrison, and other noble Lords opposite should be patient. I am sure the benefits will come through by May next year.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, one of the interesting things that came out of the cities report, to which the noble Lord, Lord Harrison referred, was the beneficial effect that London has on the rest of the country. For example, that report shows that in Southampton in the period 2008-12 local firms cut their employment by 7% but London-based firms investing in Southampton increased their employment by 24%. That is the way in which a successful London helps the rest of the country and why the Centre for Cities came to the conclusion that constraining London’s growth would harm the UK economy generally.

Business of the House

Thursday 30th January 2014 Lords Chamber

Timing of Debates

11:38

Moved by

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

That the debate on the Motion in the name of Lord Lang of Monkton set down for today shall be limited to 6 hours.

Motion agreed.

Scotland: Independence Referendum

Thursday 30th January 2014 Lords Chamber

Motion to Take Note

11:38

Moved by

[Lord Lang of Monkton]

That this House takes note of the implications for the United Kingdom of the forthcoming Scottish independence referendum.

[Lord Lang of Monkton (Con)]

My Lords, I am honoured and delighted to be able to introduce this debate on the implications for the United Kingdom of the Scottish independence referendum. I feel strongly that the question of independence for Scotland raises issues that should involve the whole United Kingdom. I welcome the number and range of interests across the House, and from across the nation, that the debate has attracted, in particular the participation, with her maiden speech, of my noble friend Lady Goldie. The House will look forward to what she has to say.

Although the referendum is now less than eight months away, I hope that today’s debate may cast a broader and more illuminating light on what has thus far been a deeply introspective debate within Scotland. Alas, PG Wodehouse gave us the English view:

“It is never difficult to distinguish between a Scotsman with a grievance and a ray of sunshine”.

We Scots have to work on that.

Scotland, for all its capacity for complaint has, over the centuries, been a full—indeed, more than full—partner in the magnificent success story of our partnership of nations and, I believe, has many friends among the other partners. With Northern Ireland and Wales, there is a kind of fellow feeling against the might of England, yet over 800,000 expatriate Scots live in England and 400,000 English people live in Scotland. It is a source of great regret that so many expatriate Scots are disenfranchised in this referendum. They may think of themselves as British and take pride in that and in their Scottish antecedents, yet north and south of the border, within two generations, countless numbers of Britons could become foreigners to their kith and kin.

For generations, Scots and English have lived alongside each other, sharing a British heritage. They fought shoulder to shoulder in the battles of the past three centuries and still serve together today; we all take pride in that. Together, they built and administered the empire before turning it into the Commonwealth, with Scots very much to the fore. Both countries are woven into the fabric of the United Kingdom. Must they now, both Scotland and England, disavow that shared history? Would that not dishonour the sacrifices, made in common cause, of those who died for the United Kingdom, a nation now to be cut in two if the present generation of Scottish nationalists have their way? I earnestly hope not.

There is nothing positive about an independence campaign that would destroy so much. However deep-rooted the fellow feeling and the sometimes grudging respect with which Scotland has jogged along within the UK, I believe that it would evaporate rapidly after a yes vote. Notwithstanding the rose-tinted spectacles of its present Government, Scotland would become a competitor of England, not a compatriot. The Governments of the remaining UK and its devolved Administrations would be obliged, regardless of sentiment or blood ties, to fight their own corners, fiercely if necessary, in the ensuing relationship. It would risk becoming like an increasingly hostile divorce, in which the parties continued to live next door to each other afterwards.

Where would that leave Wales and Northern Ireland? No wonder we hear that they feel worried and unsettled. If Scotland leaves, the population of the non-English part of the United Kingdom would be reduced by over half. The Principality and the Province would begin to look like mere add-ons to an overweening England. Surely no one would want to send vibrations from Scotland that might reopen old wounds elsewhere, but the trauma of a broken union would shake all its parts. The once-united kingdom would shrink, not just physically, but in the eyes of the world. Others would see it as diminished: diminished in size, diminished in population, diminished in strength and diminished in authority. The mother of parliaments would be viewed as unable to hold itself together. An historic partnership of peoples would seem to be crumbling and Britain’s international prestige and influence would crumble with it. Our standing in the Commonwealth would change, our standing in Europe, in NATO, the UN, the World Bank and the World Trade Organisation—one could go on. These are just some of the arguments why Scotland’s departure would be so negative and so bad for the UK.

Many specific issues have emerged in Scotland thus far, during many months of debate. I wish that I had time now to address them all in detail, but I am confident that other noble Lords will do so during the debate. Much detailed work has been done, both by the United Kingdom government departments and by many respected independent bodies. However, almost none has been offered by the nationalist Administration in Scotland. A much-heralded White Paper was published by them. We had been told that it would answer all our questions. However, at some 650 pages, it has used its very length to obscure its emptiness. It is a wish list. In reality, the governing party that wants to take Scotland out of the UK has no answers to any of the challenges that a separate Scotland would face. On almost all of them a separate Scotland would be a supplicant, based on blind optimism and reliant on concessions from others for its viability.

Take the vital issue of the currency, on which the Governor of the Bank of England was so lucid in his warnings yesterday. The SNP White Paper asserts that the pound belongs to Scotland as much as it does to England, but that is not so. It belongs not to Scotland or to England but to the United Kingdom, which the SNP wants to leave. If a separate Scotland were to use the pound as its currency, with or without the United Kingdom’s consent, it would find that its fiscal and monetary policy would ultimately reside with the nation that it had abandoned. Scotland would not have a viable central bank. It would not be able to print money in a crisis and it could not be a lender of last resort. In effect its status would have changed from that of partner to that of dependency.

On the economy, the SNP takes pride on the one hand in Scotland’s wealth, while on the other it claims that, liberated from the United Kingdom, Scotland would become one of the world’s wealthiest nations. Yet that is what Scotland is already and that wealth has been achieved as part of the United Kingdom, not just overnight but built up over three centuries. Only last month, the Centre for Economics and Business Research forecast that the United Kingdom, currently number six in the world’s GDP table, would overtake France within five years and possibly even Germany later. Who would a separate Scotland overtake and how? We should be told that. The SNP’s answer is a vague reference to growth, yet at present throughout the western world only America is growing faster than the United Kingdom, and by only a fraction. Oil is, of course, the great panacea, but as we all know it is a commodity of volatile value, which is decided by world markets, not by Finance Ministers. No responsible Government could possibly base a national budget on oil.

At present the Scottish economy has strengths, but it also has vulnerabilities. For a start, it has too high a preponderance of public sector jobs and too low a proportion of wealth creators. Scotland does not have many large companies and more than 80% of those companies that employ over 250 people are owned outside Scotland. Of the large Scottish companies such as Standard Life, the Royal Bank of Scotland and Scottish and Southern Energy, most of their business is conducted outside Scotland. For such companies the inescapable introduction of another tax regime, separate regulators and administrative structures and the need to redesign their pension schemes would almost certainly drive some of them south.

Consider the banks in particular. We are told by the Treasury that the assets of Scotland’s banking sector are equal to over 12 times Scotland’s GDP—an astonishing figure. That would not attract the confidence of the outside world or indeed of the bank’s own directors. They need an established lender of last resort, stability and long-term security, but there would be no stability and no safety net in a Scotland in which any new financial crisis emerged. As fast as the new country established a separate financial jurisdiction, its banks would be scuttling across the border to find a lender of last resort. Already the UK Treasury has had to step in to underwrite, for a nervous world, some of the potential debt liabilities of a separate Scotland.

However, one of the present strengths of the Scottish economy—and that of England—is the extent of economic integration that exists between the two countries. Around 30,000 people travel in and out of Scotland every day to work. The postal, telephone and e-mail services hum with transactions every day between the two countries and the roads and rail services are kept busy. Those are the arteries of a united economy. Cut them and both countries would bleed.

A paper published by the Department for Business shows that in 2011 Scotland’s trade with the rest of the UK represented almost 30% of Scottish GDP. Indeed, in 2011 Scotland sold twice as much in goods and services to the rest of the United Kingdom as it did to the whole of the rest of the world. Perhaps more surprisingly, Scotland is the second biggest market in the world for goods and services from the rest of the United Kingdom; only the United States takes more. So it seems clear that, at present, the United Kingdom forms a highly efficient single market, an ever closer union of peoples that has actually worked. The OECD has recognised it as the most market-oriented, economic and regulatory environment among its membership. No wonder the United Kingdom has among the highest employment rates in the world. Why put all that at risk?

Membership of the European Union offers no escape. It seems clear that the Scottish Administration’s plans to gain quick re-entry via Article 48 have already been rejected and that no special treatment can be gained under Article 49. It might take years, if it happened at all. What is more, the new Scotland would not take with it any entitlement to a budget rebate on entry but would have to start contributing to the remaining United Kingdom’s budget rebate. It seems probable that it would have to join the euro eventually and to join the Schengen group, which would therefore mean that Scotland could not belong to the United Kingdom’s and Ireland’s common travel area. That in turn would lead inexorably to the rest of the UK having to set up barriers and customs posts across the 95-mile border between Scotland and England, with all the hold-up and disincentive to trade that that would entail.

All this would add up to a new country with big problems, but England would surely prefer to see its neighbour as rich and successful, rather than have its second biggest customer in decline. For the first time in 300 years, England would have an undefended northern land border; it would have a country to its north that wanted to join NATO but refused to pay the nuclear entry fee. The implications for the UK’s defence are immense. I have no doubt that other noble Lords may wish to expand on that important matter and on many others.

I would like to spend a few moments in addressing what I believe could happen after the referendum if, as I passionately hope, the outcome is that the Scottish electorate vote no. The very fact of the referendum shines a light on our now complicated constitutional arrangements. I welcome the Prime Minister’s firm commitment not to discuss any further constitutional change ahead of the referendum, because that would only cloud the issue of separation—just what the separatists want. It is absolutely right that we should address the referendum question head-on, with no distraction. The question of whether or not to walk away from the rest of the United Kingdom will be one for the people who live and vote in Scotland, but what happens afterwards will not be. More devolution, or less, is a quite different matter. It is a matter for the whole United Kingdom, and that includes Wales and Northern Ireland as well as England. As others have pointed out, to resign from a club is for the individual member; to change the rules of the club is for all the members.

There seems to be an extraordinary mood among many in the Scottish political parties who oppose separation, who believe that they can simply agree on a shopping list of further powers for their Parliament and that such powers will be granted as of right. Scotland is going to have to abandon this mood and, I say gently, get real. Devolution is not just about Scotland; it affects everyone. A power devolved to one part of the United Kingdom creates imbalances elsewhere. Devolving a power is not about favours, still less about demands. It is the quality of government that matters, rather than the quantity. It is about responsibility and accountability, not just power. The present arrangements give the Scottish Government power to spend 60% of all government expenditure in Scotland—that is comparable with the German Länder and more than the Australian states and the Canadian provinces—but the responsibility is to raise only 20%. Such is the lack of accountability that has developed.

Scotland had for years devolved to it a 3p in the pound discretionary power to raise or lower income tax. It was not used. The SNP Administration even allowed it to lapse. Now there is a new Scotland Act, the 2012 Act, on the statute book for two years. It contains the biggest fiscal transfer in British history, which will soon give the Scottish Parliament the responsibility to raise 10p in the pound of its revenue locally with a corresponding cut in its block grant, and to raise more than that or less than that if it so chooses. Except on borrowing for capital expenditure, there is no upper limit to the use of that power. The Act even grants the power to invent and impose new taxes with the consent of the United Kingdom’s Parliament, but why did it give that power if it did not intend to allow it to be used? Therefore, Scotland now has the power to raise and spend what it needs to implement the policies that it judges necessary. It does not need to wrench the country out of the United Kingdom to achieve that. I find it very strange that that Scotland Act, and the authority that it brings to Edinburgh, has gone entirely unmentioned in the referendum debate so far.

However, all these changes bring anomalies elsewhere. In particular, I believe that the position of England needs to be considered. Already one can see the beginnings of a kind of identity crisis developing there. Two of the serious flaws of the Scotland Act 1998 can surely no longer be allowed to fester—namely, the West Lothian question and the Scottish spending block, in particular the Barnett surplus. You cannot solve the West Lothian question just by ignoring it. One option to solve it that I have suggested in the past is by setting up not a separate English Parliament but an English Grand Committee within the Westminster Parliament. It is not a perfect answer, I know, but it was made to work for Scotland for 100 years before devolution and, with a little imagination and possible adaptation, it could be made to work for England. There is also the work of the McKay commission, which offers a means of diminishing the democratically offensive aberrations of the present position. It is almost a year since the commission’s report appeared and I hope that my noble and learned friend will indicate when the Government intend to respond to it. On the Barnett surplus, everyone knows that the basis of the present distribution of funds is out of date. We know that that, too, created an imbalance that can be put right. A fair-minded Scotland would agree. We need an up-to-date measurement of relative need in Scotland and elsewhere in the United Kingdom.

The United Kingdom will never settle down again, comfortable in its own skin, unless these anomalies are ironed out. They need to be addressed in a positive and broadminded way. We need to look at them not from the point of view of the outstretched hands of devolved Administrations but from the point of view of the United Kingdom as a whole, and in its overall interests as well as those of all its parts, all of which should have a say.

I believe that we need a new approach. We need to refresh our understanding of what the United Kingdom is, its strengths and its core values. We need renewal. In short, what we need is a new unionism—a unionism that unites us, binds us and brings us together again and brings constitutional stability to the whole United Kingdom. We need to demonstrate its virtues and its fairness, not through ad hoc disbursements here or there but through a thorough and open reappraisal of our nation’s central strengths and how devolution fits into that. Above all, it is time to put the politics of grievance behind us. Others have suggested that a Joint Committee of both Houses should be set up after the referendum with broad terms of reference. I support that as one option, but we need the commitment of all the major political parties to work together in the national interest. We can turn the challenge of separation into the opportunity for reinvigoration. The break-up of Britain proposed in the referendum—this destructive, negative and irreversible process—does not need to happen. There is a positive alternative for Scotland and all of us within the United Kingdom. I beg to move.

11:58

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lang of Monkton, for securing this debate and for the very comprehensive way in which he introduced it. He and I have disagreed on many occasions over the past 30 years but he has always been consistent and honourable in his contribution to the public debate in Scotland and throughout the UK, and we saw that approach again today.

Like the noble Lord, I welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, to the House, and I look forward to her maiden speech. We fought a hotly contested election in 2007, when she was leader of the Scottish Conservatives and I was leader of Scottish Labour. Both she and her predecessor—the late David McLetchie, who fought nobly for devolution over many years and was a very able Member of the Scottish Parliament and leader of the Scottish Conservatives—made a real contribution to the success of devolution in those early years. I am very pleased to see her join us in this Chamber.

I cast my first vote in 1979—a yes vote for what was then called the Scottish Assembly. I remember the occasion even now, and the disappointment that I felt as an 18 year-old in casting my first vote and not succeeding in achieving devolution for Scotland at that time. I have consistently believed all my adult life that a strong, devolved Parliament within the United Kingdom for Scotland—a Parliament that was autonomous in its decision-making, had real legislative powers and provided a voice for Scotland—not only dealt with the anomalies in our British system of government but provided the best way forward for Scotland and the United Kingdom in government and in action.

In September, Scotland will vote on a different proposition. Much as I disagree with the timing and many of the rules under which the vote is taking place, I hope that it is decisive and binding for this generation, and that we can move on. As I said yesterday at Questions, I really welcome yesterday’s intervention from Mark Carney, the Governor of the Bank of England. I hope that the way in which he laid out the facts and the analysis that he wished to present will be repeated by others over the coming months. We need to move from the divisive, rather negative debate that has taken place in Scotland over recent months and years to a really well informed, high-level debate over these six months that allows people to make the right choice, and then to make a choice that we can all believe in afterwards.

I could probably speak for seven hours about this topic, but today I have seven minutes and I will stick to two points in particular. First, the choice in September is not between an independent Scotland and an unreformed, old United Kingdom. It is a choice between an independent Scotland and a reformed United Kingdom, a United Kingdom that has not just devolution in Wales and Northern Ireland and not just major reforms to many of the cities of England, but a strong, devolved and autonomous Parliament in Scotland. Despite the disagreements and reservations that I have about the policy direction of the Parliament over the past six years or so—the way in which certain decisions have been made for reasons of political posturing, such as the disgraceful decision to return Megrahi to Libya—I still absolutely believe that devolution is not only right for Scotland but has been good for Scotland, and that devolution throughout the UK has been good for the UK.

As I always expected, devolution has allowed Scotland at times to go down its own road in relation to policy and legislation. Where that has happened, yes, there have been differences between Scotland and the rest of the UK, but by and large those choices have resulted in improvements for the people of Scotland, in health, education and, particularly, the economy. When I took over as First Minister back in 2001, Scotland’s economic performance was lagging well behind the rest of the United Kingdom, and our employment position was much worse than the rest of the United Kingdom. Over a period of years, with the right policies in place, we made a difference to turn that situation around.

Secondly, the Parliament has been an opportunity for national leadership. On issues of sectarianism, for example, or on the important issue this year for Scotland of the Commonwealth Games, we have seen the country come together. The Parliament has provided a focus for people to come together in the national interest to change circumstances or to provide new opportunities.

Thirdly—this is particularly important—the Parliament in Scotland has provided an opportunity to be more creative, to try out new ideas to tackle long-term Scottish problems. I will give two examples. The first is the population decline that we experienced decade after decade. With the support of the Home Office and the Government back in the early part of the past decade, we took a different approach to in-migration. With that and other measures, we have actually seen a reversal of that long-term decline and, for many years now, year after year, an increase in Scotland’s population. The second example is in relation to the ban on smoking in public places. I know that many noble Lords were involved in that debate. The UK Government were all over the place on this issue but in Scotland we took a decision to go ahead. We have been proven to be right and that policy was then translated elsewhere in the UK. Without a Parliament in Scotland that decision would not have worked. Experiments in Scotland in the past, such as the poll tax, had not worked. That experiment did. It worked because the Parliament had the support of the people and an opportunity to show national leadership.

I think that it is very important that when we have this debate this year, we do not only address the long-term issues identified by the noble Lord, Lord Lang, today. There is also a need for the whole system of government in the UK—this Parliament in London and the other Parliaments and Assemblies of the UK—to debate what this new United Kingdom looks like, not just in relation to powers that move between different levels of government at different times, but in relation to how government is conducted here in London. What is the relationship between government at the centre and government in the devolved Assemblies and Parliaments? We must have a debate this year that ensures that people in Scotland are choosing between independence on the one side and that reformed, devolved United Kingdom, on the other, which provides real hope and the best of both worlds for Scotland.

12:06

[Lord Steel of Aikwood (LD)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, and I join him in thanking my noble friend Lord Lang for introducing this important debate. I too look forward to the maiden speech of my noble friend Lady Goldie. Having listened dispassionately to her trenchant and witty speeches from the Chair of the Scottish Parliament, I know that she will contribute greatly to our debates here.

In the three years that we have been discussing this matter, the debate has tended to focus on whether Scotland would be better or worse off as an independent country. I would argue that that is not the right question. If to separate off from the United Kingdom and become independent is the right thing to do, surely the cost of doing it is immaterial. The question is whether it is the right thing to do. I would argue that it certainly is not.

I do not know whether other noble Lords have received through their letterboxes this card that I have received, published by the Scottish Government. It is an advertisement for their White Paper, urging people to read it online or borrow it from their local library. It claims that Scotland’s Future—the title of paper—“sets out the facts” on independence. Of course it does nothing of the kind. It sets out, as my noble friend said, a series of wish lists. There is a big difference between a wish list and the actuality. We had an example of this a few weeks ago when the First Minister of Scotland indicated a wish to attend the funeral of Nelson Mandela. He even had his officials call the office of Prince Charles to see if he could get a lift on the plane. That was turned down, possibly on the grounds that he had not been invited—I do not know.

The First Minister has been totally consistent in his view of his own role. In an editorial in the past week, the Scotsman asked:

“How could a Scottish Government visit to a Ryder Cup event in Chicago come to cost almost £470,000? And was it really necessary for First Minister Alex Salmond to stay in the upmarket, £1,200-a-night Peninsula Hotel? … Even making full allowance for various purposes of the visit, was it really essential that the First Minister had 17 bag-carriers, advisers and functionaries?”.

The answer to those questions is yes, it is. He has been utterly consistent. He is already behaving like the head of state of an independent country. Therefore we should not scoff at that. That is what the future holds for us if we go down that particular route.

Professor Gavin McCrone, who served so many Governments as Chief Economic Adviser, has said on the matter of the currency union proposed by the SNP:

“Scotland would have very little influence on monetary policy, and fiscal policy would, in effect, be overseen by the rest of the UK”.

In other words, the Government here and the Bank of England would continue to run the economic policy of Scotland. What sort of phantom independence is that?

When it comes to the European Union, if noble Lords have got as far as page 222 of the White Paper, this paragraph is very revealing. I quote it in full:

“We recognise that specific provisions will need to be included in the EU Treaties as part of the amendment process to ensure the principle of continuity of effect with respect to the terms and conditions of Scotland’s independent EU membership, including detailed considerations around current opt-outs, in particular the rebate, Eurozone, Justice and Home Affairs and the Schengen travel area”.

That is a long wish list, just in one paragraph of page 222, and the fact that the President of the Commission, the Prime Minister of Spain and others have said, “You’re not on”, is entirely unimportant in the Scottish Government’s view.

Noble Lords on these Benches know that my great guru in political life was Jo Grimond. This is what he wrote about the issue, long before we had any form of Scottish Parliament:

“I do not like the word devolution as it has come to be called. It implies that power rests at Westminster, from which centre some may be graciously devolved. I would rather begin by assuming that power should rest with the people who entrust it to their representatives to discharge the essential tasks of government. Once we accept that the Scots and the Welsh are nations, we must accord them parliaments which have all the normal powers of government, except for those that they delegate to the UK government or the EEC”.

That is the right way forward for all the UK political parties after the no vote. We should be concentrating on what needs to be reserved to retain the benefits of the union rather than what more should be devolved.

The big issue that so far has not been properly debated in Scotland is whether we really are content to jettison our whole history in the United Kingdom. We were the home of the enlightenment. We had four universities for our small population when England had only two. We contributed substantially to the growth of empire and Commonwealth through our explorers, missionaries and engineers. A few months ago, I had former President Kenneth Kaunda to lunch here in the dining room. He talked eloquently and passionately about his upbringing in a primary school founded by the Church of Scotland in what was then northern Rhodesia. That was part of our contribution to the Commonwealth as we know it today.

Do we in future retain the glory of our defence forces, which the noble Lord, Lord Lang, mentioned, and with which we fought two world wars? Do we really imagine that persons serving in our Royal Navy, Royal Air Force or regiments would wish to leave those and join some small, independent defence force in Scotland? Do we keep our participation in the British Broadcasting Corporation, or do we have our own SBC—no doubt, as it would have been last week, feeding us on a diet of Eddi Reader murdering Burns’s simple melodies?

The union, after the referendum, should use a reformed Upper House here to strengthen it and give it, if you like, a quasi-federal nature, recognising that nearly 10% of those living in Scotland were actually born elsewhere in the United Kingdom, and that nearly 1 million of those born in Scotland now live elsewhere. I am certain that in this debate we should strengthen and emphasise the glory of our interdependence, rather than the bogus independence on offer.

12:13

[Lord Cullen of Whitekirk (CB)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Lang, for instigating this debate and for speaking so well in it. I wish to address a specific subject: namely, the funding of research in the context of independence. I do so with an interest in this matter as chancellor of a Scottish university.

It is clear that research is an area in which Scotland punches above its weight. Recently, in the context of the debate about independence, the Scottish Science Advisory Council cited a report, the International Comparative Performance of Scotland’s Research Base, in support of the statement:

“Scotland’s science and research base is among the best in the world. It ranks first in the world, in terms of the rate its research papers are cited relative to GDP, and second in the world, in terms of impact”.

That standing relies on Scotland being part of the UK’s “common research area”. UK research councils play a major part in supporting research through the funding of researchers and providing their own facilities in different parts of the United Kingdom. They also have a central role in the strategic co-ordination of research across the UK.

The effect of Scotland becoming independent would, taken by itself, be that the research councils would have no responsibility for supporting research in Scotland. The relationship between Scotland and the rest of the UK would be an international one. The facilities of the research councils in each country—by that, I mean the fixed assets—would, it seems, belong to that country.

In their White Paper, the Scottish Government state that the best research operates across boundaries, and that it is clearly in the interests of both Scotland and the rest of the UK,

“to maintain a common research area including shared research councils, access to facilities and peer review”.

They also say in the White Paper that after independence this Government—that is, the Scottish Government,

“will seek to continue the current arrangements for a common research area and funding through established UK Research Councils”.

They go on to say that, with independence, they would intend to negotiate with the Westminster Government what they call a “fair funding formula” for Scotland’s contribution to the funding of the research councils, adding:

“Providing a direct contribution from the Scottish Government budget in this way would create more transparency and clearer accountability around our investment, enabling Scottish interests to be better and more consistently reflected in the identification of Research Council priorities”.

So far, despite indications that something was coming, there has been no explanation from the Scottish Government as to how such an arrangement could be arrived at and what it would involve. It appears to be some form of “buying in” to the UK research councils. It would indeed be a novelty for them, for example, to fund pieces of research in another country—research which might or might not include research activity in the rest of the UK.

That prompts certain questions such as the following. What might be the terms that would be required of the Scottish Government for such an arrangement? What would need to be done to avoid Scottish researchers being placed at a disadvantage, especially in regard to cross-border collaboration, which is so important, and the use of facilities? Would it be feasible to maintain the present system of a single peer review for Scottish researchers? Would UK research councils remain responsible for co-ordinating research across the UK—that is, including Scotland? Would it be possible—and, if so, how—to establish and maintain a Scottish influence over the research agenda and priorities? Those questions I have posed from a Scottish point of view but most of them apply to the UK because we have a system in which there is a high degree of integration across the whole of the kingdom.

There can be no doubt that it is vital to protect and enhance the quality of research wherever it is done and, with that, the excellence of the research base. Science, technology and innovation are key drivers of competitiveness and economic success. That is why this subject is so important.

12:18

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on his brilliant speech and on finally stirring up the media south of the border to talk about the importance of the union and the United Kingdom and of the decision that lies ahead.

It is a great pleasure to follow the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cullen, who has done such distinguished public service in Scotland. We will never forget the way in which he dealt with the sensitive issues following the Piper Alpha disaster and Dunblane. His words about research are well worth consideration and I may return to that if there is time.

I know that it is a cliché to say, “United we stand, divided we fall”, but it applies to companies, political parties and families, and it certainly applies to countries. That is what is at stake here. It is important that we remember how this union came about in 1707. The truth is that it was an arranged marriage. It was a deal, and the deal was that the English got defence and the Scots got money.

They needed money because of the disastrous experience of the Darien project, where Scotland tried to build its own empire, its own colonies, and failed. One-quarter of the money in circulation in Scotland was lost, along with thousands of lives, in that failed venture where Scotland and England tried to continue to compete with each other. The brilliance of the Act of Union was that a partnership was formed and we started to work together, rather than against each other. And, hey ho, after about 20 years of misery—because the Scottish economy was protectionist and we had to adjust to free trade—suddenly prosperity bloomed. We had the Age of Enlightenment. Scottish philosophers such as Adam Smith, Scottish engineers and Scottish architects were dominating not just the United Kingdom but the globe.

It is very important to remember the financial aspect. All that money, one-third of the GDP, had been lost on the Darien scheme. A new institution, the Royal Bank of Scotland, was formed on the back of that scheme. Today, 300 years later, the Royal Bank of Scotland, with £40 billion lost—nearly one-third of Scotland’s GDP—again was rescued by the union. With 300 years’ experience, what kind of madness is it that cannot look to the past or to the present and conclude that the United Kingdom needs Scotland and Scotland needs the United Kingdom?

I said that the other half of the deal was defence. What happens if Scotland leaves the United Kingdom? Where will our nuclear deterrent be? That is let alone the effect on Scotland of the loss of 10,000 jobs at Faslane, and the loss of future defence contracts for the shipyards, with a further loss of jobs and everything else. But what about the position of the United Kingdom, which would be forced in practice to give up its nuclear deterrent? Where would Scotland be if it was cut off from the intelligence sharing and resources that we have, when we can see the threat that we face from terrorism? What of the British Army and the other armed services? Are we to say, as Mr Salmond proclaims, to the Scots men and women who fought in Afghanistan and Iraq so bravely with the union flag on their shoulders, “You have got to choose between the British Army and Alex’s Dad’s Army. You have got to choose whether you wish to be, in effect, mercenaries working for a foreign country or go off on this half-baked idea which Salmond proposes”? It is insulting. The lesson of the union and the prosperity that came was that free trade and a global outlook—not an inward-looking outlook—are the keys to success.

My noble friend Lord Steel mentioned the role that Scots have played. I wrote down some names which ring down through history, including Watt, McAdam, Telford, Dunlop, Bell, Logie Baird, Watson-Watt, Fleming, Simpson, Livingstone and Carnegie. If we turn to politics, Gladstone, Bute, Rosebery, Bonar Law, MacDonald, Bannerman, Home, Brown and Blair were all Prime Ministers who came from Scotland. Scots have played a hugely dominant role in the United Kingdom. The idea that we are disenfranchised is the politics of nonsense.

Together, Scotland, England, Wales and Ireland have saved Europe three times. First, we saved it from Napoleon; secondly, from the Kaiser; and, thirdly, from the Nazis. When the bombs were falling in the East End in the Blitz and in Clydebank in Glasgow, we knew that we were one nation which was forged over the centuries. It is a disgrace that people should seek to break up that family tie, that bond, which has been created through our history and our common heritage, without any single indication of why it could be justified.

Can noble Lords imagine a United Kingdom with Scotland sheared away? It would be a rump. We would be an object of curiosity around the world. The prestige, the influence and the power that we still have is no longer with an empire, but we still have influence and relationships through the Commonwealth. We have institutions that are copied and admired around the world. Why should we let this constitutional Lothario enable the break-up of that union?

A week ago, Scots throughout the globe were celebrating the bard, Robert Burns. At the risk of boring the House, I remind them of his address to the Dumfries Volunteers:

“Be Britain still to Britain true,

Amang oursels united;

For never but by British hands

Maun British wrangs be righted!”

12:25

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, I am extremely pleased to follow the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, and I join in the thanks and congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Lang of Monkton, on securing this important debate. In the debates on the Scotland Act last year, I rather unkindly suggested to the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, that Scotland had given up listening to him a long time ago. With his characteristic quick wit he came back to me immediately and said that he was never aware that Scotland ever listened to him. I can say unequivocally and, I think, uncontradicted by those who have heard him today that we all hope that the people of Scotland—my fellow Scots—listen to what he had to say today.

On that subject, perhaps I may say how pleased I am that the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, is in her place today and that she will contribute to this debate. I certainly know that the people of Scotland listen to her, and we all wait with eager anticipation for her contribution.

I intend to concentrate on one subject alone in these few minutes: the profound implications of the forthcoming Scottish independence referendum for the defence and security of the UK.

The United Kingdom presently enjoys a very high level of security. However, although we face no existential threat, in the words of the national security strategy:

“Today, Britain faces a different and more complex range of threats from a myriad of sources. Terrorism, cyber attack, unconventional attacks using chemical, nuclear or biological weapons, as well as large scale accidents or natural hazards”.

Consequently, the task of our Armed Forces and our wider security machinery extends far beyond conventional defence. They discharge that remit to an extremely high level of competence. But that competence is built on partnerships—between us and international organisations such as NATO and the EU; between us and our allies, the US, Germany and France; and between Scotland and the rest of the UK. We can meet 21st century threats only with collective capabilities and shared approaches, and independence can only divide that capability, leaving us a little more disparate, but certainly leaving the people of Scotland more remote from the collaborative friendships that have served us so well for the past 70 years.

Let us consider intelligence as but one example. Scotland’s Deputy First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, accepts that countering the threats facing Scotland would need,

“an independent domestic intelligence machinery”.

However, no part of the existing UK’s intelligence machinery can be disaggregated to an independent Scotland, and no effective intelligence organisation can be domestic. It would have to start from scratch and look outwards to threats that could emanate from anywhere in the world. What Scotland has already, which helps to provide security for its citizens and protect the prosperity of its businesses, could be replicated but not easily, certainly not quickly and not without considerable expense. As we wait for that, Scotland and the rest of the UK may be less effectively secure.

Further, while our relationships across the board with the US may often be misdescribed as “special”, we do have a unique defence and intelligence partnership of trust with the US. It allows us access to intelligence material without which we would be much hampered in containing the 21st century threats that we face. Although obviously secret and perhaps arguably requiring greater parliamentary scrutiny, it is essential to our security. It is improbable that an independent Scotland, particularly one intent on unilateral nuclear disarmament, would enjoy the same relationship. That also has implications, as the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, said, for intelligence sharing with the so-called “Five Eyes” partners—Australia, Canada and New Zealand—NATO allies and, indeed, with the rest of the United Kingdom.

We must also recognise, as the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, said, the very human dimension to this debate. Traditionally, Scotland has provided disproportionate numbers of soldiers and operatives to our defence and security forces. I think that I can say without fear of contradiction that no UK unit is without a Scottish presence—nor for that matter an English, Welsh, Irish or Commonwealth comrade. Thousands of Scots serve in our wider intelligence and security forces. Serving with distinction, they form an unbroken line back through Iraq, Afghanistan, countless peacekeeping missions and other crises, and two world wars, and deep into our history. This shared heritage and tradition is stronger than its individual components. The loss of them will not serve the interest of anyone in these islands, especially not the interests of the Scottish people.

Scots are everywhere in the defence architecture of NATO, where they enjoy considerable influence. They are accorded that influence because of their individual contribution but also because they come from the tradition, training background and experience of service in the UK Armed Forces. The armed forces of most European states of similar size to Scotland are restricted by their scale to home defence and exercises and to limited international involvement. Those few countries that are the exceptions established their military capability over years when defence spending was considerably higher, and that opportunity is gone for decades. Why would serving Scottish men and women choose to leave that tradition and join the armed forces of an independent Scotland when they could stay where they are and also enjoy the opportunity of promotion, advancement and the influence of being part of a UK larger force?

The inevitable loss of human and intelligence capability during the early decades of a separate Scotland, added to the loss of jobs in defence industries, the local impact of the removal of the Faslane naval base, the huge start-up costs for unique armed forces, the loss of access to intelligence and the loss of scale, will create very real risks to the people of Scotland and significant challenges for the rest of the United Kingdom. In the words of General Andrew Mackay, former GOC 2nd Division and commander of British forces in Afghanistan:

“It is easy to argue from within the comfort of a nearly 300-year-old Union that an independent Scotland would only require a small fighting force. It is not likely to be so comfortable after you have jettisoned your allies and you are on your own”.

12:32

[Lord Maclennan of Rogart (LD)]

I, too, thank my noble friend Lord Lang for initiating this important debate. In following the noble Lord, Lord Browne, it occurred to me that Scotland has played a very significant role in the United Kingdom. He spoke entirely about defence. I shall not confine myself to a single subject but I do recall that, at the end of the First World War, Field Marshal Haig delivered his war memoirs to the home of Richard Haldane with a note on the front page saying, “To the man who made victory possible”. Haldane was a Scot, educated in Germany and Scotland, who had restructured the British Army when he was in Asquith’s Government. That seems to me to be symptomatic of the role that has been played by so many Scots in constructing the civic society which has blossomed since the Act of Union. The list of Scottish names mentioned by my noble friend Lord Forsyth was highly indicative of that contribution. I think he mentioned Logie Baird, but there are others in television, such as John Reith, the first director-general of the BBC. We have had—and have—in this House Scottish Members who have played a significant role in representing Britain. I think of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, who was a Permanent Under-Secretary at the Foreign Office and secretary-general of the Convention on the Future of Europe.

The Scots have become integral to the United Kingdom and have helped to make it Great Britain. However, it seems to me that we need to recognise that the constitutional arrangements for the United Kingdom are not ideal. It was certainly sensible to devolve power to the Scottish Parliament, and I remember very well the discussions that I held with Robin Cook on the way to take that forward. However, we now need an overview of the structures of the United Kingdom. We need to recognise that Wales, Northern Ireland and England must have more responsive and less centralised government. An important decision that should be taken, before the outcome of the referendum, is to establish a convention on the future of the constitutional arrangements of the United Kingdom. It has to be accepted that independence is an illusion. No country in the global society in which we participate is totally independent, and the more we contract our relations with external powers, the more we shall find that we lose influence. Decentralisation to levels at which decisions can be effectively taken should certainly be part of the remit of this convention that I am advocating.

There is some evidence that there is a strong sense in England in particular that government is too centralised. I am not suggesting that we should carve it up into economic regions, because the history and identity of the different parts of the country of England seem not to be reflected in the rather artificial regions which were created some years ago. None the less, I hope that that step will be taken before the referendum in order to enable the Scots in particular, but others as well, to recognise that the choice that faces this country is not between the status quo and independence.

The fact of the matter is that our constitution has been developed gradually, change by change. The time has now come for our citizens to play a considerable part in the discussion about how we can recognise the limitations of our national power, recognise the strength of what we can do at national level and formulate—not in a short timescale but in open discussion—how we can improve our constitution so that the public can, once again, engage and sense our democracy is working and that the leaders of our democracy reflect the views of the electors.

12:40

[Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market (Con)]

My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend Lord Lang for an excellent introduction to this debate. In fact, he said so much of what I had wanted to say that I hope not to repeat it, but it was an excellent contribution.

I intend to be as brief as I can be on the issues and to consider them under three headings. The first is the economic implications. The Select Committee on Economic Affairs in the House of Lords produced a report on The Economic Implications for the United Kingdom of Scottish Independence in April 2013. We did so because we believed then that all the issues of an economic nature were not being put before the British people, including the Scots. We believed that voters in Scotland deserved the best evidence-based assessment of all the economic issues before they exercised their votes.

Since then, we have come a long way. We have had various government reports on various economic issues and, of course, we have had the Scottish Government’s paper, Scotland’s Future. In all that paper’s 648 pages, it lists many of the goodies that could come Scotland’s way and makes many commitments and promises, but it gives no price tag. It reminds me of the Labour Party’s 1987 election manifesto where it made many spending commitments—until we added up the bill for the taxpayer. I happened to be Chief Secretary to the Treasury at the time, so I remember it very well. As a consequence, Labour lost the election heavily. I say that by way of comment on the Scottish Government’s paper, because it does not address many of the real issues but simply says, “This will be so and that will be so”, with no argument.

On the economy, we are a still a long way from getting the issues properly assessed by the public at large. There is the big issue of the loss of access to the single market, which we went into in great detail. The Barnett formula will no longer apply, which I welcome because I have long thought that it is well out of date—it was meant to be temporary anyway and should have gone a long time ago. However, it will be compensated for as far as Scotland is concerned by the revenue from North Sea oil—that was one of the analyses that we made. On the other hand, the revenue from North Sea oil is highly volatile and is not permanent, so it cannot be depended on in the same way as Scotland originally depended on the Barnett formula. The costs of financial regulation, regulators and many other separate institutions will have to be taken into account. The sharing of the UK’s public debt, including PFI, public sector pensions and many other liabilities is crucial. I was struck by one figure that we came across which showed that the total support extended to RBS during the financial and economic crisis was the equivalent of 211% of Scotland’s GDP. Scotland simply could not sustain that sort of support and one questions whether some of the banks would have to move their headquarters elsewhere because of that.

Defence is a particularly important issue—I shall leave it to others to talk about aspects of that—because it has huge implications for the rest of the UK’s citizens and taxpayers. The cost to the rest of the UK of the proposals from Scotland on defence could be huge, and that will have to be a major issue in any negotiations that take place.

I turn to the EU. At first, Scotland indicated that it would join the eurozone and then said that it would not. It then indicated that there would be no technical problems with being a member of the EU and now it acknowledges that membership will have to be renegotiated. In particular, as I understand it, one of the commitments required of new members is that they will have to join the eurozone, so there is a big issue there. Of course, there is absolutely no guarantee that Scotland’s membership will be accepted, because a single vote from any other member state could exercise a veto. There will be many who will be very worried about the implications for them, so that is a big issue for Scottish voters.

The proposal for Scotland to use sterling as its currency and all the issues that that involves—lender of last resort and all the Bank of England issues—have been widely exposed overnight by the new Governor of the Bank of England’s excellent speech in Scotland. It means that I do not have to comment too much on it, but what he has said is highly timely and salutary, and will certainly require a lot of further follow-up.

One concern that our Select Committee had was that these issues were not being put fully before the British people—as I said a moment ago. However, we wanted to go further, so that not just the issues were put forward but the red lines of negotiation were established before the vote took place. That is fundamentally important, because those red lines and some of the issues that I have talked about—defence implications, currency and all the rest—should be spelt out beforehand so that voters understand what will follow in the negotiations. It is no good just waiting and saying that these are all issues for the negotiations because we do not know what the outcome of the negotiations will be, and I think that the outcome in many cases will not exactly be very popular to a Scottish voter at the end of the day. It is very important that the red lines are established at the beginning and, yesterday, the governor made a very good start.

So much for the economic implications; I want to say a word about the political implications. Ironically, for the Conservative Party in the rest of the UK—if I have to put it that way—we benefit from a vote for yes, because we have only one single Scottish MP in the House of Commons. None the less, a vote for yes is an outcome that I profoundly hope will not happen. Of the political implications I want to mention just one. I have seen the Answer given to yesterday’s Oral Question relating to the position of Scottish MPs in Westminster if there is a yes vote and whether they would still be eligible to sit in this Parliament after the date of Scottish independence in 2016. Obviously, that could happen, because the general election will be in 2015, the Scottish vote will precede that and then, in 2016, if it is a yes vote, there will be an independent Scotland. It is no good to say, “Just wait and see what happens”. The Advocate-General for Scotland replied yesterday that it would be a matter for negotiation. I do not think that it is; it is absolutely clear that we cannot have Scottish MPs with no constituencies, no constituency interests and no wider interests in the Westminster Parliament if Scotland votes yes and becomes independent. That should be established and worked out now and not left to a negotiation.

Finally, on the wider issues, I am a Scot, born, brought up and educated in Scotland; I have many Scottish ties still. I have of course been an MP for an English constituency for many years. I often thought that the two reasons why I was selected for adoption there were, first, that I had a lovely wife and, secondly, that there were many Scots in Norfolk, many of farming backgrounds. Due to this, I profoundly believe that, although I do not have a vote, all parts of the United Kingdom will continue to gain as a result of being part of the wider kingdom. One key implication of Scotland leaving the UK is that all parts of the United Kingdom, not just Scotland, would be the poorer, and that is why I profoundly hope that it will not happen.

12:47

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)]

My Lords, I, too, pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Lang, for initiating this debate. He has done a valuable service to the House by raising the profile of this issue at a critical time in our national affairs.

I would like to say just a few words about our legal systems and what the Treaty of Union, to which the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, referred, had to say about them. In 1606, King James I and VI said of the English system, perhaps rather to the surprise of the Scots, of which he was one, that it was the best law in all the world. His vision was for the English law system to be the system throughout Great Britain. One hundred years later, that was not how the commissioners saw matters when the Treaty of Union was formulated. What was provided there, with great care, was that Scotland would be able to keep its own legal system, which by then had developed, in all time coming. In Article XIX, it was provided that no causes in Scotland were to be heard in any of the English courts sitting in Westminster Hall. At first sight, the idea was that the two systems would be kept entirely separate, standing on their own two feet. The two would never meet: one country, two systems.

However, that is not how the union worked in practice, and it is typical of what happened in so many aspects of the way in which the union has worked. It did not take very long for canny Scots lawyers to spot that the House of Lords did not sit in Westminster Hall, and that led them to bringing appeals before this House. In 1709, the House held that it had jurisdiction to hear appeals from Scotland. That gave rise to an increasingly close association between the English and Scottish legal systems which has lasted for more than 300 years—woven into the fabric, as the noble Lord, Lord Lang, put it. That is reflected today by the fact that the United Kingdom Supreme Court hears appeals from all parts of the United Kingdom, as this House did in this very Chamber for so many years before the Supreme Court was created, and by the fact that the court now has justices from Scotland and Northern Ireland among its membership.

There is a very important question as to what is to happen in Scotland if the referendum were to result in a vote for separation. Typically, the White Paper does not say a word about that, but I am not going to say a word about it either, because our concentration today is on the United Kingdom, not what is to happen in Scotland alone. For that purpose, I want to say just a little more about how that has developed since 1707.

It took a little time before the Scots judges began to sit in this House—the first was in 1867, as it happened—but a few years later, the Appellate Jurisdiction Act was passed, which provided for permanent Lords of Appeal in Ordinary and, more or less, since then there have always been two Scots Law Lords, and now two Scots Justices of the Supreme Court. The total has reached 21 over that period, but merely to mention the figure is only part of the story. It has always been understood that the Scots Law Lords could sit on appeals from other parts of the United Kingdom—as, indeed, those from England and Northern Ireland could on Scots appeals—and this has been greatly to the advantage of all three jurisdictions.

It could perhaps be said that the Scots have pulled somewhat above their weight in contributing to the development of law elsewhere in the United Kingdom. One has only to mention the name of Lord Reid, who sat as a Law Lord in this House for 26 years, from 1948 to 1975, the longest serving Law Lord of them all, to make the point. It is not only his long service that marks him out as one of the outstanding lawyers of his generation: the quality of his judgments, the perception of the issues that they raised and their clarity were all outstanding, and are cited every day in the courts up and down this country. There is no time to go over the contribution that others have made. My part is perhaps enshrined in the fact that I am shown in a portrait in Committee Room 1 delivering the House of Lords’ last judgment in an English appeal. Earlier this month, I was referred to in a case which came from Northern Ireland and, just yesterday evening, a decision by Lord Reid in an English case was referred to in the Supreme Court. The fact is that our contributions have been built into the entire system as part of its fabric.

This brings me to the consequences for the United Kingdom if that tradition is broken. The process of cross-fertilisation of ideas across the border will cease. The tendency to prefer principle to precedent, which is one of the characteristics of the Scottish approach, is also at risk of being lost. So, too, will be the breadth of experience which has always marked Scots judges out in comparison with the specialists from England. Of course, the loss of the two Scots justices, if and when this has to happen, can be made good, but the breadth of vision which comes from having what is at present a court for the entire United Kingdom that draws its ideas from a broad canvas, cannot.

As I said at the start, it was not anticipated at the outset of the union that these two legal systems should grow together as they have, but that is what has happened, as it has been appreciated on both sides of the border that their systems draw strength from working together with each other while respecting their differences, rather than working separately. Both sides have a lot to lose if that relationship is broken—jettisoned, as the noble Lord, Lord Steel, said earlier—as it is bound to be if the right of appeal is to be ended and Scottish justices are no longer present. I, for one, would very much regret that development.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, your Lordships are doing extraordinarily well at keeping to time, but timings are quite tight. If noble Lords speak when the indicator shows seven, they are in the eighth minute. If too many noble Lords do that, we will run out of time.

13:09

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick (Con)]

My Lords, I, too, congratulate my noble friend Lord Lang on the brilliant speech with which he introduced this debate. It is a pleasure to follow the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, who, if I may say so, always brings a very Scottish sense of wisdom to our debates. It would be a tragedy if he were removed from this House because of independence.

This is the first time that I have ever dared intervene on the subject of independence for Scotland. As a Scot who has lived in England for a long time, I have always felt that one was not very welcome intervening in the debate. Unfortunately, I do not have my father's Glasgow accent, but I have always said that it is not necessary to sound like Rob Roy to prove one is a Scotsman.

Scottish independence would, I believe, diminish what remains of the UK in the eyes of the world. It would be the end of Britain. It is often forgotten that the name Britain came into existence only after the Act of Union, and the name would make no sense if the northern part of this island were to be removed. If Scotland became independent, people around the world would wonder what had gone wrong, what had happened. It would be just as if Illinois or Florida broke away from the United States—people would feel that the standing of the United States, its viability, was somehow diminished.

The departure of Scotland would diminish us internationally. It would have an effect on our standing in international institutions where voting power, as in the EU, is often determined by population. For example, we would have fewer votes in the Council of Ministers and fewer seats in the European Parliament. Sir John Major has said that Britain might well lose its seat on the Security Council of the UN. I do not know if that is right, but I notice that the Scottish Government's White Paper on independence states that an independent Scotland would support the United Kingdom in trying to retain its seat on the UN Security Council. How would it do that? Where are the diplomats? It has no embassies. It does not have a history of independent diplomacy. How would a tiny country be able to help a diminished, smaller UK? If that is a real problem, it is a perfect example of how we are better off together.

There is a curious thing about how Mr Salmond presents independence. He presents it as a situation in which nothing will change: the Queen will be there, the Scottish regiments will be there, the pound will be there, the Bank of England will be there. It was Lampedusa, the Italian writer, who said that things have to change in order to remain the same. For Mr Salmond, things have to stay the same in order to change.

Boris Johnson has referred to a cat’s cradle of legal and political ties. I am sure that there are many things that have not been thought of that will have to be unscrambled. I am sure that the issue of citizenship will throw up many problems. Let us take one. At present, British citizens living outside the UK cannot pass on citizenship for more than one generation, so children of UK citizens living in Scotland, if there is an independent Scotland, will be UK citizens, but not the children of their children. For many people, that could pose family problems. Let us take another question: civil servants. In many countries, the state reserves certain posts in the Civil Service to its own nationals. Will that apply in Scotland, with no UK citizens being able to work in the Scottish Civil Service; indeed, will it apply in the UK? What about the Foreign and Commonwealth Office? What about the Ministry of Defence?

Then there is the issue which the Governor of the Bank of England touched on yesterday: the question of the currency. Mr Salmond believes that in exchange for assuming part of the debt of the United Kingdom, he can have part ownership of the Bank of England. If Scotland is going to have its own fiscal system able to decide the balance between spending, borrowing and taxation within its own boundaries and determines its own deficit, that will have an effect on the rest of the UK—on the Bank of England, on monetary policy. If Scotland runs an excessive deficit—let us say, 10% of its GDP—that will have an effect on interest rates for the rest of the United Kingdom. So there would have to be some agreed fiscal limit on borrowing by an independent Scotland. There would have to be some arrangement—like that, dare I say it, between Germany and Greece and the peripheral countries of the eurozone. I am not saying that Britain would treat Scotland as Germany has treated Greece, but there would have to be some agreement.

The words sovereign, the King, sovereign, the coinage and sovereignty, the concept of independence, are all intertwined. Independence without your own currency is a very constrained form of independence. Mr Salmond wants to have a Prudential Regulation Authority that would apply throughout the UK and an independent Scotland, but public opinion will ask why the Bank of England should stand behind Scottish banks. It was expensive enough bailing out RBS when it was a British bank. Are we really going to be expected to bail it out if it gets into trouble as a Scottish bank?

Then we have had the issue of UK debt. The Treasury was forced to say that it would guarantee all existing debt, right up to the point of Scottish independence. Mr Salmond saw that as an own goal. It may have helped him a little in the argument, but the Treasury was forced to make that announcement because of the markets. The markets were nervous about an independent Scotland. There can be no doubt that an independent Scotland would have to pay a higher rate for borrowing simply because it has no track record and there would be uncertainty about what sort of fiscal policy it would follow.

Why is there all this desire to separate? It seems very much to be based on oil. One section of the country thinks it could make itself better off overnight, simply by grabbing the oil—but God put the oil under the North Sea, not Alex Salmond. There is a parallel with Shetland, where I come from. Shetland was not part of Scotland at the time of the Battle of Bannockburn. Shetland could claim part of the oil; Shetland could go independent. I am not saying it will, but how would Scottish nationalists regard that? They would regard it as destructive and selfish. Are we Scots really so different from the English? Well, of course we are—but not so different and not so much better that we need to have a Government of our own. We have been together for so long, achieved so much together. Ripping the blue out of the Union Jack would be a wretched business which would do nobody any good at all.

13:01

[Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke (Lab)]

My Lords, I too congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lang, on achieving this debate, and on his excellent introductory speech.

Your Lordships’ House may not be aware that the noble Lord, Lord Lang, has already been under attack for having the audacity to mention the First World War. He has been under attack from a Mr Keith Brown, a member of the Scottish National Party and a Member of the Scottish Parliament. Frankly, that kind of attitude shames me as a Scot. Like many members of your Lordships’ House, I lost someone in the First World War. I lost my great uncle. I come from a tradition that has always gone out to help others. That is what the Scots are famous for. It is a sign of the contempt with which those of us who believe in the United Kingdom as a family are treated that such attacks are made on the noble Lord, Lord Lang.

I want to take up some of the themes of the noble Lord, Lord Lamont. Like him, I thought the remarks of the Governor of the Bank of England yesterday were excellent. It is quite amusing—this came on the day after Mr Alex Salmond made a remark that England and Scotland will be great pals. The first thing that frightened me about that was the echo of the negotiations in the run-up to setting the level of the euro. I was there. A lot of male bonding went on. The night before the big debate, there was a football match on television. All the Finance Ministers disappeared off to watch the football match, so the sort of thing I was hearing was, “So-and-so was a good chap so he’ll stick to his word on the euro”, and “That guy over there, he was a very nice chap, very convivial in the bar—he will stick to his word on the euro”. I am sorry but that is not good enough. If you are going to enter into a currency union, we now know it is not enough to trust the word of others. You need a firm agreement. We were helped at that time by the five economic tests with which Britain judged whether we should enter the euro. We have to have a similar set of tests, set by the Treasury and the Bank, on what will be right for the rest of the United Kingdom. Do not let us forget—if Scotland votes yes, Scotland becomes a foreign country.

The other aspect is that if you are a best pal or you have a best pal, best pals know that family comes first. The family of the rest of the United Kingdom will be the moral and legal obligation of the Government of the rest of the United Kingdom. We are bandying about that phrase—United Kingdom. It will be pointless if there is a yes vote, because one part of the kingdom will have gone. We will have to find other terminology for the rest of the United Kingdom.

Fiscal rectitude will be absolutely essential in a currency union. You have to be absolutely confident that those in charge of that Government are fiscally correct. The noble Lord, Lord Steel, referred to the First Minister’s visit regarding the Ryder Cup. I applaud the activities to get the Ryder Cup. As noble Lords know, I have a great interest in tourism. It is a major Scottish industry and one of Britain’s major industries. Working together we have made it a major export earner. How on earth anyone other than Paris Hilton could have spent either £51,000 or £54,000 on accommodation for one person at the Ryder Cup, I fail to understand. What angers me also—as a Scot, because we always look after the bawbees—is Mr Salmond’s response that he was not interested in the fripperies; that our concern about whether it is £51,000 or £54,000 is “frippery”. That is twice the average wage. That is the kind of sweeping gesture—dismissing coherent argument—that has so debased the nature of this debate.

Fiscal rectitude will also mean keeping within public spending constraints, and because of those constraints and the commitment to a 3p reduction in corporation tax, revenues for expenditure elsewhere will necessarily be reduced. One area that significantly worries me, and my noble friend Lord Browne referred to it in relation to defence and the security of this country, is that our counterterrorism activity in Scotland will of necessity be reduced. We will not have access to the same degree of intelligence as at the moment, and we will have porous borders unless a huge chunk of public expenditure from the new Scottish Government is going to go to making our borders secure. That is a huge task. The borderland between Scotland and England is not Waziristan. You can cross it on a Sunday afternoon walk. It will be extremely difficult to secure those borders. There is an implication for the security of the rest of the United Kingdom if you have loose borders and a big land mass. We are a third of the land mass of the United Kingdom. It really increases the risk to great cities such as London.

I am also very conscious of the fact that the financial services sector is a crucial part of the Scottish economy. We have been slightly blinded because of the bad behaviour of the banks; we have forgotten that the other parts of the financial services industry are famous for their probity and are a significant part of the economy. They are all mobile—they can move in the blink of an eye. Why would they wish to remain in a small country when, as major players, they can operate elsewhere?

Perhaps it is because I am the first woman to speak in this debate that when I look at the implications for the United Kingdom, I immediately think of divorce. Divorce is never easy for any party. It is often the weaker party who comes out of it worse. We are not talking about independence, which sounds a nice positive thing. We are talking about separation and we are talking about divorce. That is probably why so many women in Scotland are increasingly in favour of the union.

I will end my remarks there because I know your Lordships are very anxious to hear the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, address the House. She will be an asset to the House and I look forward to hearing her remarks.

13:09

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, it is a privilege to make my maiden speech in this Chamber on such an important subject as the United Kingdom and Scotland’s continuing place within it. By way of preface, may I take this opportunity to thank all the staff here for their unfailing help and courtesy in guiding this rookie through the hoops of admission and introduction? I should also like to thank your Lordships for the warmth of the welcome extended to me, not only today, and most recently by the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, but also when my noble friends Lord Sanderson and Lord Selkirk introduced me to the Chamber.

I am Scottish born and bred. I grew up in the Renfrewshire countryside, which in many ways is very similar to the Ayrshire countryside of Robert Burns, whose birth we have just been celebrating. As he encountered the merle, the mavis and the corbie, so did I. When Burns wrote:

“A Rose-bud by my early walk,

Adown a corn-enclosed bawk,

Sae gently bent its thorny stalk,

All on a dewy morning”,

I knew the scent of that wild rose. I had witnessed such mornings. I had a great sense of pride in being Scottish. The highlight of my childhood week was listening to Jimmy Shand and his band on the radio, learning the old Scottish tunes and jigging round the kitchen floor.

In primary school, Scottish history was an important part of our studies, but there was also a wider arena of which I was aware and could not be unaware. I grew up in the very recent aftermath of the Second World War. My father was a Glasgow Highlander in the First World War. I knew from an early age that there was a United Kingdom, that Scotland was a part of it, that these were natural concomitants and that there was nothing incompatible with that partnership and also being proudly Scottish. That perception was reinforced when I went to an excellent secondary school, Greenock Academy. There I was to learn in detail about the history of the United Kingdom: how the Act of Union came about—and, importantly, as my noble friend Lord Forsyth said, why it came about—and what had been possible down the ages within that unique partnership. Going to school in Greenock was also to see at first hand the significance of the Firth of Clyde as a port and maritime route, an eye to the rest of the world.

Being at school in Greenock was also to understand the strategic importance of that area for the Royal Navy in time of war. Of course, in modern times the nuclear submarine base at Faslane on the Clyde has been a British defence facility of major strategic significance. After school, I was to study law and practise as a solicitor in Glasgow for many years before entering the Scottish Parliament in 1999, where I currently serve as an MSP. This autobiographical meander is merely to illustrate that from childhood through my formative years to adulthood, Scottishness and Britishness have been in my very fibre as innate and inalienable conditions.

Just as I feel part of a family within this House, I feel part of a family of nations: proud nations which constitute the United Kingdom, our United Kingdom. When I look at how together we overcame Nazism, how we fought and continue to fight against terrorism, how we exercise global influence through NATO, through being a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council, through being members of the G7 and G8 groups of countries, and how together we faced global recession and the failure of banks, I see a partnership which is relevant, which works and which is a success.

Threaded all throughout the fabric of that United Kingdom are the people and families of our individual nations. What a strength these threads give to that fabric. The famous words of the poet John Donne:

“No man is an island, entire of itself;

Every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main”,

could refer equally well to the United Kingdom. We are not defined by some diverse geographical blobs on a map. We are proud of our individual nations, and rightly so, but it is what we constitute together—this union—which is so unique and so powerful. We reach across boundaries; we are not divided by borders. To remove any part of that structure diminishes the rest. It puts the balance out of kilter, so that those who remain are affected every bit as much as those who leave. That constitutional dismemberment imperils the whole United Kingdom.

If I have a plea to your Lordships, it is this. Do not think that the independence referendum in September is Scotland’s business alone. It is not. The whole of the United Kingdom is affected by this debate. Wherever we live within the United Kingdom, if, like me, you value it, then we all need to step up to the plate to keep it. I and my fellow unionists in Scotland need the support of our fellow unionists in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. We are better together; now is the time to stand together.

13:15

[Lord Hennessy of Nympsfield (CB)]

My Lords, it is a great honour to be the first to congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, on her fine maiden speech. Her arrival in your Lordships’ House is as timely as it is welcome because she has been at the epicentre of the questions before us today. The noble Baroness’s wisdom, which we have already felt today, will continue to be a boon to this House and so will her company, for she is hugely liked and admired across the political spectrum for her gift for friendship and for her generosity of spirit.

As a non-Scot, and the first non-Scot to speak in this debate, it is hard to know how to declare one’s interests in a debate of this kind. In my case, they come in three varieties. First, I had one Scottish grandmother and, since last year, have close family living in Scotland, in the Northern Isles. Secondly, to adapt the opening line of General de Gaulle’s memoirs, I have always had “a certain idea” of Scotland. More than that, I have had a love of Scotland since my first visit, aged 10, in 1957 when we went from London by car to the Isle of Skye via Edinburgh and Inverness on the way up and the Clyde and Kilmarnock, where the family lived, on the way back. The third interest is difficult to declare because, as many of your Lordships will understand, male Brits of my age were brought up not to speak of emotions in public—quite the reverse. However, I cannot conceive of my country, the United Kingdom, without Scotland as part of it. My fear is that without the Scottish connection England will become a shrivelled nation, psychologically as well as geographically, and more inward looking after the equivalent of a family break-up.

Just think of the benefits that, over the past three centuries, have poured over the border from the family in the north to the family in the south, enhancing the lives of both family branches. We all have our own list—we have had several today—but here is mine in headline form. There are the continuing fruits of the Scottish Enlightenment, which we feel every day in the prowess of Scotland’s universities. I should declare an interest in that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, gave me an honorary doctorate at the University of Strathclyde a few years ago, which I wear with pride. There is Scotland’s industry and flair for invention; its gifts for public, judicial and military service; its writers and actors; and the variety, spice and bite that Scotland has brought to our Parliament and our political philosophies. That is quite enough emotion from me— probably too much—save to say that if Scotland separates, whatever the position in international law, I shall always regard it in my mind as part of my country until the day I depart for what will still, I hope, be a UK enclave in the sky.

Perhaps I may concentrate today on one aspect of what I regard as the regrettable decision taken by the Cabinet at the turn of 2012-13 that Whitehall shall not engage in any contingency planning for Scottish separation. The future of the Royal Navy’s Clyde submarine base in such an eventuality is of particular concern to me, as I am a firm believer in the need for the United Kingdom—or heaven forbid, the “remainder of the UK”, as Whitehall calls it—to sustain a nuclear weapons capacity through to the mid-21st-century as the ultimate protection against a highly unlikely but potentially utterly catastrophic contingency we might face in an unpredictable world. Sir Kevin Tebbit, a former Permanent Secretary at the Ministry of Defence, has accurately depicted the UK as the world’s most reluctant nuclear power. It is to our credit, however, that we go through a great and often anguished debate each time we face an equipment or an upgrade decision. But were we ever to give up our nuclear weapons, it should be after we have had the fullest and best informed national conversation possible, not on a side wind swirling out of the Scottish question.

Having visited Faslane and Coulport, I have some idea of the magnitude of any attempt to recreate them in England or Wales in both logistical and financial terms. My research colleague, Dr James Jinks, has furnished me with the original February 1963 study, now declassified in the National Archives at Kew, of possible bases for the Polaris force. This was the list: Devonport, Falmouth, Milford Haven, Loch Ryan, Gare Loch, Loch Alsh, Fort William, Invergordon, Rosyth and Portland. The Gare Loch was chosen for good reasons: it has deep water in which to dive quickly down the Firth of Clyde off Arran, and three possible exits en route to the patrol area—through the North Channel straight into the Atlantic, up the north-west coast of Scotland and out through the Minches, or south down the Irish Sea and through the Western Approaches.

Should an independent Scotland strive to remove the SSBN and SSN forces from the Clyde, which the SNP is pledged to do, there are now only two possible sites for relocation: Falmouth and Milford Haven. Can you imagine the planning process and the construction efforts required, let alone the cost? We may be able to take a stab at imagining these things, but the Ministry of Defence cannot under Cabinet orders. The solution, in my judgment, would be a sovereign base arrangement for Faslane and Coulport on the Cyprus model, but that idea is, I fear, regarded with horror in both Downing Street and the First Minister’s residence. I profoundly hope that the question does not arise.

I shall finish with a thought about the union post a referendum decision in Scotland not to separate. Although the union will be intact for now, there will remain the danger of a creeping estrangement between Scotland and England, especially if the SNP forms the next post-referendum Government. There could well be a continuing, perpetual drizzle of complaint about Westminster and Whitehall which would induce still more resentment south of the border and poison any conversations about further devolution. If the post-referendum relationship is one of surliness and sourness, we shall all be the poorer. I was very struck by the words of the noble Lord, Lord Lang, about learning to do things once more as a union. Post-September, if we are still together, it will be necessary to sing a song of the benefits of union. The union quite simply is a 300 year-old international success story. It has done great things for our people and for the world in peace and war. It can still do more, much more.

13:21

[The Duke of Montrose (Con)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, and, if he is the first Englishman to speak, to hear him nailing his Scottish qualifications so boldly to the mast. The House owes a debt of gratitude to my noble friend Lord Lang for securing a debate on this broad topic. I also thank my noble friend Lord MacGregor and his committee for the work they did and the report they produced.

The economy is the key area and the one in Scotland on which the issue is likely finally to be settled. A small indication of the problems that might arise for the rest of the UK can be speculated on from the fact that on independence, the rules of golf in England might be temporarily suspended. The authority of the Royal and Ancient Golf Club of St Andrews operates in most countries only if they already have their own national organisation with which it can be affiliated.

As we argue with each other in the field of politics, we allocate meaning to words and concepts that are narrower than their original meaning. In this case, it really does not have to follow that a Scottish nationalist is one who is looking for separation and independence. Surely the first feature of a nationalist is that they treasure the assets their country derives from the past and look to the best outcomes for the future. If the rationale proposed is only looking for a major break with what has gone before, then that is the role of an insurgent or a revolutionary rather than a nationalist. Perhaps those who adopt that label should consider which category they wish to belong to. In Scotland, there is a lot of rhetoric about the first concept, but much of the effort is to achieve the second.

I come from a family tradition that goes back at least 900 years in Scotland, and we have been intimately involved in her development. Whatever choice the Scottish people make, I for one will remain with Scotland. A fundamental element of that choice centres on deciding whether a secure future is assured by what has been characterised in the title of a well known play as the “black black oil” and has been regarded by many as Scotland’s black gold, or whether we should shape our future on what is on offer from Scotland’s grey gold: the brain power and inventiveness of her people, which was so well illustrated by my noble friend Lord Forsyth.

When we come to agriculture—I must declare an interest as a farmer in Scotland—there are numerous areas where we find differences. As the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, mentioned, Scotland has gone down a different road from time to time. Just the other day, we had a visit from my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary, who said how much Scottish agriculture benefits from participation in the common agricultural policy as part of the United Kingdom. What nobody seems to have told him was that at that moment the Scottish farming industry was seething. The fact was that EU moneys had been received under a scheme whose aim is to bring about what is termed “convergence”, because Scotland is lagging well behind the EU target for support compared to the aim of the policy. The UK Government then decided that they would apply their own idea of convergence and use the money as a way of offsetting the reductions that other parts of the United Kingdom would have experienced from the cuts that they had proposed in the Budget.

Looking today at the wider effects of Scottish independence, there are many ways, as my noble friend Lord Lang of Monkton described, that the UK will be diminished. The issue that stands out for me is that if independence takes place, the remainder of the UK will become almost entirely dependent on external countries for its oil and gas. My noble friends Lord Lang and Lord Steel mentioned that Scotland will lose out on the EU rebate, but another element which will arise from a diminished UK and Scottish independence and which the rest of the UK might like to consider is that in terms of land area, Scotland, at 78,000 square kilometres, represents nearly one-third of the British Isles, but at the same time, at 89,000 square kilometres, it will take over responsibility for 59% of British territorial waters. When it comes to the UK economic zone and fishing, it will take over about three-quarters. This will have considerable implications for the Scots in terms of regulation and defence, but it is also a very considerable reduction in what the present UK represents.

13:26

[Lord Robertson of Port Ellen (Lab)]

My Lords, we are fortunate that the noble Lord, Lord Lang, has obtained this debate today, because, as has been said, it draws attention to a critical issue for this country that applies to more than Scotland. This debate reflects the importance of that subject.

The noble Lord, Lord Lang, and I were on opposite sides of the House of Commons. I shadowed him for a brief period before he was replaced in government by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. I remember having a discussion with the noble Lord, Lord Lang, relating to his hyperactive successor. The noble Lord, Lord Lang, said, “I come from the anaesthetic school of politics”. The anaesthetic school and the hyperactive school did not save the Conservative Party from oblivion, but the Scottish Parliament did. The electoral system that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, and I created has given us the likes of the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, who has enlightened us with her wisdom and charm today. That is one of the advantages of our electoral system, but there were some unintended consequences which I have no doubt the electorate will, in due course, remedy.

There is something bizarre, strange and surreal about a debate on dismembering the United Kingdom and creating a separate Scottish state. The nationalists do not like to be called separatists. The word “separation” is somewhat toxic to them—for good reason, because it means something. If you are going to create a separate state, you are a separatist, and we need to pin that to them. What is surreal is that Scotland is not an oppressed colony. Scots are not discriminated against. We are not disadvantaged inside the union; in fact, Scotland is the second most prosperous part of the UK after the south-east of England. Scots in their hundreds of thousands live and work in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, just as people from these other parts do in Scotland.

Scots play a huge, maybe disproportionate, role in British life. We wake up across the country to the voice of Jim Naughtie on the radio. During the day, we have Ken Bruce and Eddie Mair, and we go to bed after Kirsty Wark has filleted some hapless interviewee. Scottish voices dominate British industry, commerce, culture, academia, trade unions, institutions and organisations. We are not some persecuted minority yearning to escape oppression. We are all of us fortunate to live in a single-language, integrated country where people move, work, trade and socialise without any restraint, divisions or boundaries.

Our native Scottish culture—as diverse inside Scotland as it is different from that in other parts of the kingdom—is not intimidated or threatened by anyone. We have our own Parliament. The proudest part of my long political career is the part I played with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, in bringing about that Scottish Parliament, which now legislates on nearly every domestic issue that people care about. Within it, as my noble friend Lord McConnell has said, we experiment, we pilot, we make mistakes. We invent and tailor laws to what Scotland wants. It is, as John Smith once memorably said, the settled will of the Scottish people. We indeed have the best of both worlds: part of a strong country respected in the world and punching its real weight—that of a settled state—in the highest levels of global governance; and simultaneously controlling our domestic affairs within a genuine, unconstrained Scottish agenda.

I am proud to be Scottish. I am profoundly comfortable being a patriotic Scot—just as I care about being British and European. When I chaired the North Atlantic Council as secretary-general of NATO, I revelled when we had NATO Foreign Ministers’ meetings with an English Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, and a Welsh British Ambassador, Sir Emyr Jones Parry, jousting with a Scottish British secretary-general. It was not just entertaining—although it certainly was that—but there was on display a mix of cultures, comfortable and distinct in our own multi-identities inside a polyglot, voluntary, successful union of nations: a vivid example to a continent and a world bleeding throughout history from inter-nation violent conflicts.

That is the spirit of our union, now threatened by a totally unnecessary and unwanted divorce. Just like most divorces, as my noble friend Lady Liddell said, the separation will promise damage, turbulence, negativity and friction. It will do nothing to solve the global problems that face us today and will face future generations.

13:32

[Lord Crickhowell (Con)]

My Lords, the people of Scotland should be as grateful as those of us taking part in the debate for the fact that my noble friend Lord Lang has secured it, and for the manner in which he introduced it. Our people and institutions have intermingled and grown strong through three centuries of union. It has been a huge success story. Those who live in Scotland will have a vote in the referendum; huge numbers born in Scotland who live and work abroad will have no say; and the rest of us are hardly allowed a voice. History may judge that it was an insane way to decide the future of a nation, let alone of a United Kingdom.

All those who were born in Scotland and who live and work elsewhere have every right to be indignant at their treatment. They may be deprived of a vote, but I hope that many of them will add their voices to the campaign in favour of the union and will try to influence their friends and relations who live in Scotland. The rest of us, many like me with Scottish relations, must make it equally clear how much we would deplore what would be a tragic family divorce. Like others, I think that that is the right word to use.

Most divorces have painful consequences. If the vote were to be yes, the complexities of dismemberment would be enormous. Under international law, in the event of a vote in favour of independence, Scotland would become a new state and the rest of the UK would be a continuator state. The notion that,

“all current laws … will continue in force after independence day until they are specifically changed by the independent Scottish Parliament”,

as asserted in the Scottish White Paper is quite simply wrong. Acts of Parliament that are UK-wide in scope may establish public bodies that are under a statutory duty to act in the public interest of the UK as a whole, not in the interest of a foreign power, while government departments and agencies would operate only in the rest of the UK on behalf of its citizens, and not in the new state. UK institutions, including the Bank of England, would become institutions of the rest of the UK, whereas the UK’s assets and liabilities would fall to be apportioned equitably. The Bank of England would become an institution exclusively of the rest of the UK, notwithstanding any historic contribution made by Scotland.

My authority is the magisterial report by Professor Alan Boyle of Edinburgh and Professor James Crawford of Cambridge, together with an analysis presented to the Constitution Committee by our special adviser, Professor Adam Tomkins, professor of law at Glasgow. The Scottish Government want to keep the pound and retain the services of the Bank of England, under a formal currency union agreement. The governor, Mike Carney, in his Edinburgh speech this week made it absolutely clear that, for a successful currency union, you require fiscal and political union if you are to avoid sovereign debt crises, financial fragmentation and large divergences in economic performance. It is almost impossible to conceive how the necessary political union could be created on the back of a vote for political independence. The Select Committee on Economic Affairs, in its important report, ended its devastating analysis of this vital question with the words,

“the proposal for the Scottish Government to exert some influence over the Bank of England, let alone the rest of the UK exchequer, is devoid of precedent and entirely fanciful”.

The positive case for the retention of the union needs to be made with great force, as it has been this afternoon. The people of Scotland have made, and continue to make, an immense contribution to a partnership that is of benefit to everyone within it. As so many have said, dismemberment would be damaging for both Scotland and the rest of the UK. The outcome concerns us all, because we all benefit from integration.

As a number of noble Lords have pointed out, defence presents a particularly striking example. The defence analysis paper explains with great clarity how Scotland benefits from UK defence capabilities that protect everyone in the UK. The level of spending and economies of scale mean that the UK is able to maintain world-class Armed Forces and equipment, as well as the essential structures and services that are required to make them effective. All defence assets, physical and human, are integrated across the whole of the UK, fitting together as a jigsaw under a seamless UK command and control arrangement. Similar benefits accrue to the defence industry, where, again, Scotland and the whole UK would be massive losers from dismemberment.

We need to get the message across: we are all in this together. With children and grandchildren who have blood and genes drawn almost equally from Wales, England, Ireland and Scotland, I say with particular fervour that I dread the possibility of a divorce at the heart of the United Kingdom family.

13:38

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

My Lords, I first offer a warm welcome to the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, of Bishopton, which is famous in Scotland for its Royal Ordnance factory. It is clear that we have a big, new gun in our armoury, here in this House.

I offer my congratulations to the noble Lord, Lord Lang, on his brilliant speech. I need not speak to what I was going to talk about, because two propositions are already absolutely agreed: first, that Scotland would be worse off without the union; and, secondly, that the rest of the union would be greatly worse off without the Scots. That has been absolutely agreed this afternoon. I think that every speaker before the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, was a Scotsman, which may have something to do with that, but both propositions are true. It is also true that the Scots are a notably modest race.

I will address a slightly different proposition. Supposing that one got the wrong answer and the Scots decide to go for secession, what would be the responsibility of the United Kingdom? The angle I will touch on—I am sorry, but it will not enhance my reputation in the House—is the task of ensuring that the Scots get into the European Union. That is a very difficult task, which would be the responsibility of all of us, including the United Kingdom Government.

Of course, the route in that was suggested by the First Minister in his White Paper and all his oratory does not work. However, I will not go into Article 48 versus Article 49 again; the verdict is clear, so I do not have to. The President of the European Council, the President of the Commission and all heads of government and Foreign Ministers who have addressed this question so far are clear that the route in would be via an application for membership once the country became independent. That poses a problem, for three reasons. First, the European Commission cannot negotiate with the applicant until an application is received, and only a sovereign state can be an applicant. Secondly, all member states have to agree the terms which have been negotiated. Thirdly, all member states have to get them ratified in their countries. If you cannot sign the treaty because you are not yet a sovereign state, you cannot pre-negotiate the terms of that treaty, at least formally.

What is the way around that? One needs to find a way around it because, as the noble Lord, Lord Lang, said, we all have an interest in a prosperous Scotland, and we all have a moral responsibility toward the Scottish farmers, fishermen and exporters, the enterprises and the individuals whose legitimate expectations would be dashed and whose rights would go if there was a hiatus between Scotland’s secession from this union and its accession to the European Union. On the face of it, there is quite a high probability that that might arise. My solution is that it would be the United Kingdom Government’s job to attempt to negotiate informally the terms of Scotland’s entry into the European Union and the transitional arrangements for the period before all three stages of that process were complete and the treaty was ratified.

Three conditions would have to be met. First, a great many of the Scottish Government’s negotiating positions would have to be abandoned straightaway. One could not negotiate the impossible. An example is the question of the rebate. It is impossible as an applicant to secure the agreement of all member states, many of whom are much poorer than you, that you should not have to pay the full subscription. Therefore, an applicant Scotland would not secure a rebate. The UK rebate would go down, because UK GNP and the VAT base would go down; UK receipts would go down; and the rebate, which rebates two-thirds of the difference between the two, would also go down. Therefore, there would be a reduction in the rebate here. It is absurd for Mr Salmond to tell us that in addition to having a reduction in the UK, Thatcher rebate, we must write a cheque and send some money to Edinburgh so that it gets a rebate too. That does not work; we could not possibly pay twice, so that position would have to go. There is no point in an applicant country going to Brussels and saying, “I would need a rebate”.

The second condition is that the divorce terms would have to be absolutely clear. I am sure that the Council would be unwilling to allow the Commission to negotiate with a country that has not yet defined what its independence is. What independence means in terms of frontiers and currency would have to be clear. The Scottish and United Kingdom Governments would have to agree a precise scenario before any negotiations could start. Even then, the lawyers might object to the start of the negotiation, saying, “They aren’t sovereign”, so the negotiations would have to be conducted by a UK team flying the union jack. You cannot stop members of the Council negotiating with the Commission. They would have to operate on agreed instructions from the London Government and the Edinburgh Government. Even so, they might have a very hard task, because some member states could wish, if the occasion arises, to make the Scottish path to membership of the European Union as difficult as possible in order to dissuade secession movements in their own countries. That is the best I can come up with, and it is not certain that the road I am describing would be open. However, it would be the UK’s responsibility to try.

Edinburgh needs to become much more realistic, and we could not wash our hands of the problem. If the Scots say that they want to be independent, we have an interest and a responsibility to try to get them into the European Union as quickly as can be arranged. It will be extremely difficult. We all now have a responsibility to make clear to the Scots, before they vote, that there is a real risk of a hiatus—of falling into a costly crack between secession from this union and accession to the European Union.

13:46

[Baroness Neville-Jones (Con)]

My Lords, I add my thanks to those of other noble Lords to my noble friend Lord Lang for securing and leading this debate and for the wisdom of what he said. The noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, is no longer in her place, but it is a great pleasure to have her in this House. I agree that we have a great new weapon here—her call to arms was certainly very forceful and also quite right.

Much of the comment on the implications of the referendum in Scotland has focused on the economic aspects, but in the course of the debate so far we have also begun to see a wider picture. In a moment I will focus on the security side, which has already been mentioned by some other noble Lords. First, however, following what the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, said, I should just like to say that it is a very unattractive prospect to be caught like a pig in the middle between the Scottish Government and the Council when trying to do something. I see the point that he made—that it would be extraordinarily difficult. It is not clear to me whether the other members of the Council would play ball. That is only one of the many great difficulties that this potential scenario throws up.

Before I go on to talk a bit about the issues that conventionally come under the heading of security—and the list starts with terrorism—I should like to comment on the question of an independent Scotland’s potential membership of NATO. This throws up equally great difficulties when we come to the propositions that might confront us as regards the economic European Union. Why? Frankly, it is pretty extraordinary that a Government who dispute the central tenets of the defence policies of the alliance and seek to remove from their soil the facilities which are so important to nuclear deterrence should simultaneously imagine that they would be wanted or valued inside the alliance which their actions were weakening. It is very difficult to see how the alliance would countenance that. It does not work that way. That is another area where the Scottish people are being sold a false bill, and it is very important that they hear other voices.

I turn to issues that the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, mentioned—and I agree entirely with what he said. I want to focus on the threats that this country has been tackling in a major way, from before 2010 but, most particularly, since the national security strategy of 2010. We identified terrorism, cyberattack and organised crime as major threats to the stability of the security and stability of this country. Terrorism and cyberattack were classed as tier 1 risks and organised crime as a tier 2 risk. Despite our great efforts and the investment that has been made since then in combating organised crime, it has enormously grown, and I would not be at all surprised to see in a further security strategy that it came out as a tier 1 risk. My point is, in relation certainly to the other two risks, that those risks are not going away; they are remaining. Daily extensive, intensive and expensive efforts manage to keep them under control.

So what are these efforts? The annual bill in this country for maintaining capabilities and for the operations of the agencies, and for the cyber intelligence alone, runs at over £2 billion per annum. That does not take into account the contributions also made by the police or other government agencies and the military to our overall strategy. As a result of that overall strategy, we have a well honed machine, which goes under the label of Contest, on which our counterterrorist effort is based and which is being used as a model to combat organised crime. It is because of Contest that we have seen so few outrages since the London bombing, but we should not imagine that it is because they are not being attempted—they are, and there are plenty of them, and the operations of the police and agencies frustrate them.

The whole of the UK benefits from this security umbrella that runs from the centre, but this would change, and it would change radically, in the event of Scottish independence. The authority of the agencies, the legal framework under which they operate and their ability to provide security would stop at the border. The noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, was quite right to say this. The Scottish Government have recognised this, and they know that they would have to set up what has been described as a security and intelligence agency, which would engage in what they have described as intelligence sharing. That is all very well, but the putative budget for defence as well as for security in an independent Scotland is only £2 billion per annum; that includes defence as well as other agencies. For a share of this sum it seems highly improbable that, with set-up costs and operations, an intelligence service could be created that was adequate to act as an effective and trusted partner to UK and other allied intelligence services. To share intelligence, agencies have to be capable of generating their own. I have no doubt that the UK, in its own security interests, would want to do what it could to increase the security of its geographical neighbour and long-time partner, but we have to recognise that the control principle governing intelligence derived from third parties would undoubtedly quite severely limit what it could share. Scotland would lose the benefit of what the UK has at the moment in its membership of the “Five Eyes” community.

That would have important implications for UK security. The UK could not allow a less secure Scotland, if that turned out to be the case, to be used as a back door to penetrate the UK, and we may be sure that that would be tried. Unavoidably, we would have to fall back on securing the English-Scottish border to become a control point, with all the cost and inconvenience that would be involved. That would be true irrespective of whether Scotland were a member of Schengen or managed to persuade all parties involved to be allowed to continue to be in the common travel area of the British Isles.

I have one last point. The border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland is often pointed to as an example of the way in which it is possible to keep an open border in the face of a terrorist threat, but this is not an apt analogy. The control border is across the Irish Sea, and it most certainly is monitored and can be closed in emergencies. I would hate to think, but it cannot be excluded, that this could happen within Great Britain. The more we diverge in policy and practice, the greater the danger. We would surely be better off by maintaining the open and peaceful border that we have had for 300 years.

13:55

[Lord Brennan (Lab)]

My Lords, the Motion so well introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Lang, wisely invites the House to note the implications of the forthcoming Scottish referendum. Secession by Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom is of the greatest constitutional importance to the whole nation. What are those implications constitutionally? First, for the Parliament—or should I say Parliaments of the United Kingdom—if there is a yes vote, it is only the first step, or the beginning of the end. There is much to be done, and to be done by this Parliament. The agendas of defence, economics, banking, transport and education that we have gone through today, illustrate the scope of the Act of Parliament and consequential debates that we would have to undergo before we voted to implement actual independence. The Scottish certainly would require the same process, and I have not looked at the technicalities but the Welsh and Northern Irish might also be involved in their Assembly duties.

What is the reality of that? In September 2014, if there is a yes vote, there will be about six months of parliamentary time before the run-up to the 2015 general election for our country. Nothing will be achieved in those six months except, perhaps, a lot of political noise from north of the border if there has been a yes vote. The United Kingdom Parliament, elected in 2015, will have on the present count 59 MPs from Scotland. Let us forget for a moment the party-political demographics of that 59—it is a substantial part of the manpower of the House of Commons. There will come a time after a yes vote, if Parliament decides on an Act of independence to agree to secession, in which those 59 MPs will cease to act. On when and how, I am afraid that I am, as a lawyer, not convinced that this would be a matter for negotiation. I do not see how constitutionally a Member of Parliament can continue to sit in the Commons and act for a constituency that no longer exists as part of this country. In that event, within that Parliament, the structure of politics will suffer a major change. So the implication for our Parliament is much greater than the interests just of Scotland—it is the interests of the whole country.

If there is a yes vote, this Parliament will face a state of affairs in which huge amounts of parliamentary time will be needed to make a decision that the whole country will be looking at, particularly the citizens of England. If there is a no vote, the devolution argument will continue. If, as one suspects, the Scottish National Party wants a 47% yes vote and a 53% no vote, it will then tell the rest of the country, “We are on the way to more devolution. Let’s continue the fight. It will not go away”.

I turn now to the nature of the debate. It will require at the very least long parliamentary debates but also, perhaps, a Joint Committee or a parliamentary commission such as the banking standards commission that we have just had or, as the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, said, a constitutional convention, probably irrespective of whether there is a yes vote or a no vote. These are major issues which will take up parliamentary time, and the debate has to involve the whole country.

As for the international implications, the international community at the beginning of the 21st century does not do independence-lite. The 70 years since the Second World War have produced a range of international institutions with extremely careful entry and membership requirements which will not be softened or changed for individual circumstances. Apart from the case of colonialism and freedom for various countries which survived that, and other than the fall of communism, I can find only two instances in the past 70 years in which the United Nations has accepted new members—namely East Timor after a civil war involving Indonesia, and South Sudan after a civil war with what is now Sudan. Somaliland has been a non-accepted “independent” country since 1991. It is simply wholly unreal to expect Scotland to enter any of the 10 or 15 international institutions which we can immediately think of that it would need to enter to be a respected and functioning member of the international community.

I never cease to admire the intellect and ingenuity of the noble Lord, Lord Kerr. His description of how the United Kingdom might help Scotland get into the European Union increased my admiration but did not help to convince me of the strength of his argument. Some countries in the European Union will never agree to a country such as Scotland coming into Europe because of their own interests, and neither will the United Nations. We therefore face an independent Scotland being in international limbo for years to come. To whom will the world look to safeguard international interests in which Scotland should play a part but cannot? It will look to the United Kingdom and our international duties will continue as before.

My last point is not extensive. There is no turning back. If Scotland becomes independent, that is it. If it chooses to leave the United Kingdom it will not be welcomed back save in the gravest of circumstances of hardship and need. That is a harsh reality to express but, constitutionally, it is almost inconceivable to think that it would return.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Before the next contribution, I again remind noble Lords that this is a time-limited debate and that when the clock strikes “7”, noble Lords should look to complete their comments.

14:04

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, like the noble Lords, Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market and Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, I was a member of the Economic Affairs Committee, which reported last year on the economic impact on the UK of Scottish independence. When we debated the report in this House in June, we said that it was important that voters understood the implications of their vote before they cast it. We said that voters should reasonably expect to know whether membership of the EU would be secure, how long the process of applying might take, what the implications for taxation—both personal and corporate—would be, what the implications for public spending might be, which currency would be used, which fiscal policies would be put in place and what regulatory policies might be different in Scotland from the rest of the UK.

Some of these issues, particularly around banking and fiscal union, have been clearly explained this week by the Governor of the Bank of England. However, there are uncertainties around entitlement to Scottish citizenship, as well as other uncertainties around tuition fees and whether they would or would not be free at Scottish universities for students from England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Another key issue is the Barnett formula because, if Scotland became independent, the extra 15% of public spending per head would cease. Oil revenues might make up the difference, but such oil tax revenues would inevitably be uncertain because they would fluctuate according to the market price. It is true that, on the basis that 90% of oil reserves would be in Scottish waters, the tax gain from that could make up for the loss of the Barnett formula, but it seems very clear that there would not be any more money available overall for public spending if Scotland was independent.

A further key issue is UK debt, which now stands at £1.38 trillion and rising. Scotland would have to take its share of that debt, but it is generally recognised that bond rates would be higher in Scotland after independence than they are now. The UK can borrow at very low rates but Scotland on its own could well have to borrow at two percentage points higher. What would be the impact on Scottish mortgages, bank loans and inflation?

Another key issue is the nature and benefits of our integrated domestic market. Dividing it into two separate fiscal, regulatory and consumer protection regimes could create serious difficulties for the private sector and increased costs for households and businesses in areas such as pensions and insurance.

I have been, and remain, a firm advocate of increased devolution in the UK, but I also believe that the full independence of any part of it would dislocate the whole of the UK, making it much more unbalanced. It would reduce our international influence, endanger a single labour market and put into doubt the existence of UK-wide communications systems. It would also prevent our sharing of investment and risk across the United Kingdom.

Living in the north-east of England, I strongly support closer working between Scotland and north-east institutions—something that I am very keen to see enhanced, whatever the outcome of the referendum. I was particularly pleased to see the work on the border lands produced by four authors from Northumbria University, Durham University and IPPR North, which examines possible scenarios for the north-east of England and Cumbria if Scotland becomes independent or has maximum devolution within a UK framework. I welcome initiatives such as this because we need a debate in England and the rest of the UK rather than only in Scotland.

I want the United Kingdom to remain united but, equally, I hope for greater devolution to the UK’s constituent parts. I think Scotland will find greater flexibility inside the UK than it would outside because of the constraints that would be imposed on an independent Scotland in areas such as higher borrowing costs. However, I acknowledge that this is a decision for the people of Scotland to take. However, I make a plea to the media based in England. England needs to understand better what Scotland is thinking, on both sides of the independence debate. Too often what I read and hear in English newspapers is an English commentary by an English commentator. UK newspapers, for example, may have Scottish editions with specific pages on Scottish news, but those newspapers do not get sold in England. Over the next few months it would be helpful if newspapers printed in England carried much more Scottish news and articles on the independence debate so that we develop a better understanding of what people are thinking. I should acknowledge at this point that the BBC has started to do this and I welcome that.

A historic opportunity is on the horizon for the United Kingdom. If Scotland votes yes, the consequence would be a new constitutional settlement with the rest of the UK. If Scotland votes no, there will be a debate on devo-max and what further powers could be devolved; I anticipate that. Either way, we shall have the opportunity to undertake a new constitutional settlement across the UK, spear-headed by the debate and the vote in Scotland.

We should start here at Westminster, with English issues being reserved matters for English MPs only. I am not a supporter of a separate English parliament, because it would cover too big and diverse an area and too big a population. Rather, I favour gradual devolution of greater powers to combinations of local authorities with coterminous boundaries with local enterprise partnerships, thus encouraging and securing joint working between the two. There is rising demand across England now for devolved powers from Whitehall, for a place-based system of finance through a single pot covering all relevant Whitehall departments. The recent London Finance Commission report Raising the Capital looked closely at this, but cities across England are now calling for a suite of fiscal reforms including devolution of property tax revenue streams—council tax, stamp duty, land tax and business rates—with the ability to reform those taxes while retaining prudential rules for borrowing.

The debate in Scotland will provoke a great opportunity. I welcome that, but I welcome too one potential consequence: that we will actually have a debate in the rest of the UK on what a new constitutional settlement across the UK might look like.

14:11

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, I join others in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Lang, on securing the debate. His comments and vision at the end of his speech on what a new unionism might look like is the missing ingredient in the current debate, in my opinion. The debate is about whether Scotland leaves the UK, whether it would be better off on its own—that sort of argument. Instead of making the debate about leaving the union as it is, we need to look at how the union could evolve and improve—how we could make things better. If the noble Lord is looking for a response, I can tell him that my party in Northern Ireland—the Ulster Unionist Party—is attracted to the ideas that he espouses and would love to participate in a debate on how we can help the United Kingdom to evolve.

Though I am a supporter of devolution, I am concerned at the way in which devolution is being treated in Whitehall. The issues of the regions are being pushed to one side. That is the mistake that was made on Northern Ireland from the 1920s; it was pushed to a desk at the back of the Home Office and ignored. We are all part of a union, and we should all have a say. The idea of pushing devolution to get the issues off the Whitehall desk is a fundamental error. Large amounts of money are being pumped into the regions, and the regional parliaments should not simply be ATMs that can distribute largesse locally, without any acknowledgement of where it comes from. In what is happening in Scotland, we see before us the downstream consequences of that fundamental mistake.

Of course it is perfectly possible for Scotland to be independent. The people of Scotland have the skills and ability to survive on their own. However, they will do so at a different level of economic and political influence. That is the risk that they run. The forensic approach of the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, a few moments ago was very sobering indeed. Of course, Scotland is not a single unit on this issue. The approach is totally different in the islands—Orkney, for instance. They are saying, “It’s not your oil, Mr Salmond, it’s our oil. It’s got to come through our front door before it gets to you. We don’t need you, Mr Salmond; we can be on our own”. What does that mean? I have never seen such a significant constitutional issue come before us so ill thought-through. Not a quarter of the major issues have even been addressed. We are taking a leap in the dark. The people of Scotland are being asked to walk over a cliff edge in the hope that the SNP will catch them as they fall. The issues are not even worked through in any coherent way.

As the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, made clear, there are also implications for Parliament. Sadly, there may be a few in the other place who look around and say, “If we didn’t have those 40 or so Scottish MPs we could have a different Government. We wouldn’t be dependent on other people any more”. What about the implications for this Chamber? Think of some of the voices that might be stilled in this Chamber. Maybe I will not go there—that might work against my argument—but the fact is that this Parliament would not survive unscathed.

I feel concerned that so little thought has been given to the downstream implications of this, and I am pleased that at least we have been looking at it from the other side of the argument—that the rest of us have some say in this. Following the Bank of England governor’s intervention yesterday, I can say for almost certain that those of us remaining in the United Kingdom in the event of a yes vote would have to determine our response on the currency issue. Are we seriously going to pick up after the Scottish National Party—guarantee it, be lender of last resort? Who in their right mind wants to be an independent country but have their money supply, interest rates, public spending and lender of last resort outside their borders? It is barking mad. That is not independence at all; that is servitude. You are a client state, like some of the old Soviet republics. Sufficient detail has not been debated.

This particularly applies to our Labour colleagues in Scotland: if you look back a few years, this country was led from Scotland. We had a Scottish Prime Minister, a Scottish Chancellor, a Scottish Home Secretary and a Scottish Defence Secretary. The G8 met in Scotland; all the world leaders were there. That will be thrown away. Scotland has punched above its weight consistently inside the union; all that will go. President Obama will not be ringing up; neither will anybody else. Particularly in Scotland, we need more vigour behind the campaign than there has been hitherto.

I will quote a poet for a moment, Robert Frost:

“Before I built a wall I’d ask to know

What I was walling in or walling out”.

I do not think that question has been asked. The nightmare of border posts is hard even to comprehend. I am sorry to disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, who is not in his place, but the idea that we would take on the job of negotiating on behalf of the SNP is very difficult. Why should we clean up its mess? I want to see Scotland succeed and prosper but its place is within the union, not outside it.

14:18

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas (Con)]

My Lords, like the noble Lord who has just spoken, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lang, on his profound and perceptive opening speech. I have spoken in this Chamber about the difficulties that I believe any independent Scottish Government would face in trying to create a credible Scottish defence force by plucking out assorted assets and personnel from the closely integrated British armed services. The military covenant, whose key principles have now been enshrined in law, states that the first duty of Government is the defence of the realm, and I wish to concentrate today on the implications for the safety of the whole of the United Kingdom if Scotland chose to become a separate country in the referendum next September.

The recent report of the House of Commons Defence Committee concluded that such a momentous change would result in the remainder of the UK,

“facing the loss of vital personnel, bases and equipment, representing as much as one twelfth of current assets”.

There would be, it warned, a consequent loss of capacity, particularly in the short term. The committee reached the alarming conclusion that the level of safety and defence currently enjoyed by the whole of the United Kingdom,

“is higher than that which could be provided by the Governments of a separate Scotland and the remainder of the UK”.

At the heart of the negotiations after a yes vote in the referendum would be the future of the United Kingdom’s Trident nuclear deterrent, as touched upon by the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy. The SNP is determined to banish those submarines from Scotland’s shores while at the same time seeking the protection of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, which is a nuclear-based alliance. In contrast, the Defence Committee reported that Scottish independence on those terms poses a serious threat to the future operational viability of the UK’s nuclear deterrent. The UK Government have made it clear that the horrendous cost of repositioning the nuclear armed submarines would impact financially on the whole of the United Kingdom. Giving evidence to the House of Commons Scottish Affairs Committee, Professor William Walker of St Andrews University said that the creation of a new deep-water facility outside Scotland could take at least 20 years. In what I sincerely hope will be the unlikely event of a yes vote, there is clearly substantial scope for this subject rapidly to become one of the most divisive and hotly disputed issues in any negotiations between an independent Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom.

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas]

My Lords, I look forward to the noble Lord making his own contribution later if there is time.

Unfortunately there is not sufficient time to talk about all the implications for the UK of setting up a separate Scottish state. I will, however, deal with one: the possible creation of passport controls on some 21 roads that cross the border. The Scottish National Party insists that such a situation would not arise but no UK Government could fail to act if an SNP Administration in Edinburgh relaxed immigration checks to such an extent that Scotland became a back-door entry to the remainder of the UK. We can well imagine the economic impact and the sheer time-consuming inconvenience for travellers.

Evolution is a natural process and dismemberment is not. The Calman Commission, on which I served, had representation from Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties, and produced a unanimous report proposing further devolution within the United Kingdom, which has been largely implemented. It represented an evolutionary development. Whatever the SNP would have us believe, the total separation of Scotland from the rest of the UK would represent a severing of one of the most successful political, economic and social unions in the world which has endured for more than 300 years. I fear that this dismemberment would produce nothing but frustration and friction in our common island home.

While the United Kingdom is able to make the best use of finite resources, its disintegration would in all likelihood unpick all the economic integration steadily built up over three centuries. On the international scene, the UK’s coveted place on the UN Security Council and our seat at the top tables in the world’s economic forums could be in doubt and our capability to promote democracy and the rule of law around the globe sadly diminished.

Outward-looking patriotism is not to be confused with inward-looking nationalism. Patriots can love their country and yet be happy to see it as part of a larger entity which can continue to do a great deal of good in the world. I am a Scottish patriot as well as being a British patriot and I wish to continue to be proud of both.

14:24

[Lord Gordon of Strathblane (Lab)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Selkirk, in a debate so ably initiated by the noble Lord, Lord Lang. By happy coincidence, the three of us were introduced to your Lordships’ House on the same day in 1997. More importantly, perhaps, this has also provided a convenient occasion for the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, to make her maiden speech. I very much welcome the experience that she brings to the House from the Scottish Parliament, which will inform future debates as it has informed this one.

Frankly, I will be very relieved when 18 September has passed, not so much because of the result as the danger of permanent damage being done in the intervening period to what is a very close relationship. It is a severe test of any marriage when one party announces that it wants to consult about divorce. It is difficult to imagine things being quite as warm again in the future. There is a very real danger of that here. In everything we say, we must realise that, no matter what happens, we will all be living together in one very small island off the shore of Europe and we should avoid any statements that make relationships in the future more difficult than they need to be.

A lot of English people to whom I speak are as much hurt as puzzled as to why we are having a referendum on independence. They wonder what they have done wrong to cause the Scots to want to do this. It is very difficult to give them an answer. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, mentioned the Blair Government in 1997. Every senior post was taken by a Scot. Eight out of 22 in the Cabinet were Scots. It is difficult to portray Scotland as a downtrodden nation with those figures. It is easier to make a case that England has been rather abused in recent years. We need to address that.

There is evidence that the English are beginning to address it. I, along with most noble Lords, received a briefing from the Local Government Association this week, saying that devolution seems to work rather well for Scotland, so how about some devolution for us? How about devolution and more equal expenditure? The Barnett formula is under severe threat because, frankly, it is more than fair to Scotland, and we know it. That is why Nicola Sturgeon was so desperately anxious to get an assurance that it will not be re-examined. The English regions will start demanding their fair share, so some damage has been done already.

Damage has been done to Scotland because there is uncertainty where there need not be. Damage has been done to the SNP because the SNP was doing rather well in Scotland. Its first Administration introduced some fresh faces to Scotland and a fair degree of competence as well, which the public in general admired. Now it is showing what might be called it true colours and it will do the SNP harm. This is not its most popular policy. People vote SNP who would not touch independence with a barge pole. That may not be the case in future elections.

The SNP is anxious to pretend that nothing will change. It wants to keep the Crown, to remain in NATO and to remain in the currency union. However, things will change. In my view, we already are independent, in that no one will send tanks up from Carlisle if we decide to vote yes. We are a free nation—I fully accept that we are a nation—and we are entitled to be independent if we want. However, I do not think that we want to. I do not think that the Scottish people want to. The SNP knows that the outward trammels of independence would be unpopular in Scotland. We do not want a separate head of state. We want to remain in the currency union.

The SNP wants to pretend that everything will remain the same. However, in my view, if the SNP says that there will never be border posts, it must accept the consequent reality: if there are no border posts, we must follow the same immigration and terrorism policies as England, otherwise there will be border posts. Likewise, if it says that of course there will not be customs posts at the border, we cannot then pretend that we can have a different level of excise duty north of the border from that in the south. All that will happen is that pantechnicons will roll down the M74, pick up the cheap booze in Carlisle and come back up the road to the black market. All that we are looking for is a degree of consistency. In any case, if nothing is changing, you might well argue, “Why sell a 300 year-old house simply because you do not like the wallpaper in one of the rooms?”. That is what the SNP is effectively doing; it wants to keep the big things but change a few minor things.

Incidentally, I was greatly intrigued by the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. As far as I can remember, there is a bit of a coincidence here. The man who founded the Bank of England, William Paterson, was a Scot and the man who was later behind the Darien scheme. This seems to come around every 300 years. The issue was shown up clearly in the Governor of the Bank of England’s speech, which was reasoned. He said that it can be done, but the question for Scotland is, “Do you genuinely think that you will have more influence over Bank of England policy as a foreign country or as part of the UK?”. Once you have asked the question, you realise what the answer is, and it is why, frankly, I wish the referendum were not taking place.

If one considers the issue of broadcasting, my own background, Scotland constitutes 34% of the UK land mass. It takes 1,154 transmitters to cover the whole UK, 235 of which are in Scotland. In other words, more than 20% of the transmitters are in Scotland serving 8% of the UK population. The same problem will arise with broadband. The Scottish Government are doing a good job of trying to roll out broadband, but it will be more expensive in Scotland, simply because we are a less densely populated country with difficult terrain. There is also reference in the White Paper to taking over BBC Scotland. Incidentally, there was a big hoo-hah a couple of years back under Blair Jenkins about a new digital channel. That has now been forgotten. We are going to take over BBC Scotland and then miraculously get all the BBC programmes for nothing. How that works, I do not know.

My concluding remarks relate to Scotland’s place in the world. One of the first television programmes I made was a series called “Scots Abroad”, because I was mesmerised by the achievement of the Scots in building the British Empire. Scotland benefited disproportionately more than the rest of the UK from the industrial wealth of the British Empire as a captive market, brought particularly to Glasgow and the west of Scotland. We also suffered more than the rest of the UK when our manufacturing industry ran down. However, the UK now exercises its power through soft power. I felt genuinely proud of London during the Olympics. London showed a warm side that most people had hitherto not noticed, including Londoners themselves. I hope that Londoners will feel just as proud of Glasgow when we hold the Commonwealth Games in the summer of this year.

14:33

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

The distinguished former Member of your Lordships’ House, Earl Russell, described the essential relationship between Scotland and England as that which could be defined by saying that England could brook no equal, and Scotland no superior. The motto of the oldest continuous regiment in the Regular Army, the Coldstream Guards—“Second to none”—is testimony to that. As a borderer, my area has seen the tensions realised over the centuries. No doubt, my ancestors, who were witness to the bloody dispute on Flodden Field, may have some sympathy when I see a less bloody dispute at Murrayfield between the two warring partners in 10 days’ time.

This debate has heard much of poetry and pragmatism. Perhaps your Lordships will allow me to say that the best poetry was best delivered by my former colleague, my noble friend Lady Goldie. If many noble Lords thought that the only Conservative politician to be stranded on a zip wire was Boris Johnson, they need to refer back to my noble friend Lady Goldie, who was the first to pioneer that media stunt in an election campaign in my former constituency a number of years ago.

That, as well as a longer history, has been part of today’s debate. However, in my short contributions to previous debates in your Lordships’ House on this subject, I referred to a girl who would be born in Scotland on the day of the referendum, who would be likely to see the 22nd century, and her granddaughter the 23rd century. In that regard, the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, set exactly the right tone for our national debate taking place in Scotland and across the whole UK: the choice ahead of those of us who have a vote in Scotland is between the ever more diluted and nebulous concept of independence that is being presented or a reformed and refreshed union. I very much respect the contribution made to Scottish politics by the noble Lord, Lord Lang, but I regret his saying in this debate that those of us who are passionate about the union and Britain, and see the benefit that reforms can bring, should be getting real.

A decade ago, when I served on the Scottish Parliament’s Finance Committee, I wrote a paper arguing that while the establishment of a Scottish legislature was unquestionably a good thing, we did not establish a Scottish Government or have the recourse to reforms to Whitehall and Westminster that allowed a more federal type of United Kingdom to be developed. That is why there is an opportunity ahead of us to seize that issue and offer the people of Scotland an opportunity to reject independence but put their faith in a reformed and improved union. I concur wholeheartedly with the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, in his illustrations of the benefits of the Scottish Parliament. To his examples, I could add: land reform, which languished on the shelves of officials who did not secure parliamentary time in Westminster; criminal and civil law reform; the first legislation on freedom of information in the UK, which included its own Parliament in that legislation—something that this place learnt, to its cost, that it should have done; reform of local government; and electoral reform. Many of those instances were put forward through the leadership of my noble and learned friend Lord Wallace and the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, working together in coalition. They saw coalition work in the United Kingdom, after a long break, which was also a contribution that reform can bring. Those are examples of parts of progressive reform in progressive institutions.

The very much admired and much missed John P Mackintosh said in another place in 1976:

“One party, with which I have much sympathy—the nationalists—says ‘If you feel Scottish and want to run your own affairs, you must have the full panoply of statehood—with an army, a navy, an air force, ambassadors abroad and the lot’. I do not think that the Scottish people want that. The other group, the Unionists, say ‘If you feel British, if you value British traditions and respect British parliamentary democracy, and if you think that the big industries have to cover the whole of Britain, you cannot have a degree of self-government which reflects your needs in your own areas.’ I reject both propositions. Institutions have to be the servants of political demands. We have people in Scotland who want a degree of government for themselves at the Scottish level. It is not beyond the wit of man to devise the institutions to meet those demands and thus strengthen the unity of the United Kingdom”.—[Official Report, Commons, 16/12/76; cols. 1829-30.]

That happened. However, we have an opportunity to question whether that system was the best for the future. Is the settlement we have the most stable and beneficial for the rest of the life of that young girl who will be born next year?

A decade ago, I wrote the paper to which I referred. More recently in my work—I declare an interest as a member of the advisory board of the think tank Reform Scotland—I was the author of the devo-plus reports, published in 2012. They sought to establish an objective look at where the most appropriate balance of power and accountability would lie for the most efficient and stable delivery of public services in Scotland, and across the rest of the United Kingdom. We have an opportunity to put the Scottish Parliament on a more permanent constitutional footing, allow it fiscal power commensurate with its legislative power, and ensure that there is proper accountability and elections in the Scottish Parliament, so that when I was an MSP people would not have asked me where the money was raised from for the services on which it was spent, but would have asked simply how it should be spent. There should be more robust legislative underpinning of the financial relationship with the Scottish Parliament. That is unsustainable in the future because the devolved Scottish budget is treated effectively as a departmental budget line in the Treasury documents. It is also no longer sustainable that the funding formula for Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland can be arbitrarily changed by the Treasury or that, if we consider the Scottish Parliament to be permanent, it can be abolished by a one-line piece of legislation in this Parliament.

It is an absolute pleasure and an honour to be part of a debate to which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, has contributed. He said in a judgment on AXA General Insurance v the Lord Advocate in the Supreme Court:

“The dominant characteristic of the Scottish Parliament is its firm rooting in the traditions of a universal democracy. It draws its strength from the electorate. While the judges, who are not elected, are best placed to protect the rights of the individual, including those who are ignored or despised by the majority, the elected members of a legislature of this kind are best placed to judge what is in the country’s best interests as a whole”.

I believe passionately that it is in the best interests of Scotland to remain a successful and progressive part of the United Kingdom, but we need to look very clearly at the form and we need to offer people a positive choice in the referendum. In that regard, I believe that the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, and others are correct in saying that we have an opportunity to provide people with a positive choice for the future.

14:40

[The Earl of Caithness (Con)]

My Lords, unlike my noble friend Lady Goldie, I am not 100% Scot. I certainly have Scottish blood in me but I also have quite a lot of Norwegian blood in me from the old days, as well as English, Welsh and Irish blood. I am not alone in that. Many in the United Kingdom have that combination. That is one of our strengths, being part of the United Kingdom, and it does not worry me. I passionately support Scotland when it comes to sport. If Scotland is playing England, I support Scotland, but if England is playing another country, I tend to support England.

The noble Lord, Lord Steel, said that his guru, Jo Grimond, did not like the word “devolution”. I do not like the word “independence”. Independence in Scotland has a certain ring about it that is quite attractive. If I ask people in Caithness, “Do you want independence?”, they hesitate. If I say, “Do you want separation?”, the answer is no. We are losing the argument by using the wrong word. We must make it absolutely clear that this is total and complete separation. It is the nuclear option; it is the end of the United Kingdom for ever. The consequences are horrific but we have not really touched on them today. In fact, I think that we have very little comprehension of how the markets and the rest of the world will react should Scotland vote for complete separation, because that is what it means. That is one of the messages that we have failed to get over.

Let us just go back to currency, because it is a key issue. It is no good the Government saying that it is not likely that we will have a sterling area. Come on, my Lords, let us be absolutely clear: there is going to be no sterling area. There must be no doubt. The more doubt that is sown in the minds of those who are going to vote in September, the more chance there is of there being a yes vote. The Government have to be absolutely clear. Should they decide that there might be a sterling area, can my noble and learned friend on the Front Bench confirm that the rest of us in the United Kingdom will get a referendum on whether we want it? It is no good the Scots saying, “We want a sterling area”. If the Government say, “Yes, well, in all the circumstances we will have a sterling area”, it will be absolutely right that the people in the rest of the UK decide whether they want to allow that to happen and whether they want to join that sterling area.

If there is to be no sterling area, Scotland has to have its own currency. It has to have its own central bank and it has to be credible. As the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, rightly pointed out, if Scotland wants to become a member of the EU, it has to be its own sovereign state. It has to have a track record. I think that it was the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, who pointed out that there will be a ghastly intermediate area between a country being part of the United Kingdom and it becoming a separate country. That will have huge implications for the rest of the UK, which will have to keep the whole ship steady.

As has rightly been said, if Scotland is accepted into Europe, it not only has to have its own currency but it has to be part of the Schengen agreement. That will automatically put border controls on the boundary between Scotland and England, and that will have an effect on tourism. The noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, was absolutely right to say that tourism is hugely important. When people come to the UK, they are thrilled to be able to arrive in London, come up to Edinburgh and then travel on to the far north. However, they will not be able to do that quite so easily. The Americans are not great travellers at the best of times. If life is made difficult for them, tourism in Scotland will suffer, although it will not suffer so much in the rest of the UK.

What will happen if Scotland is refused entry into Europe, as is highly likely? There will be a country to the north of us which is totally separate from the rest of the UK; it will not be part of Europe and it will have its own currency. There will be huge implications which we have not thought through and have not yet assessed. That is potentially dangerous. Should Scotland become part of the EU, I do not think that that will affect the rest of the UK very much. At the moment we have 29 votes on a qualified majority basis and we will continue to have 29 votes because we will then have a population of about the same size as that of Italy. Scotland will have about seven votes—about the same as Finland. It looks likely that the top four countries will remain with 29 votes, although Germany should probably have a few more. However, I do not think that that would have severe implications for the rest of the UK.

I need my noble and learned friend on the Front Bench to quash another myth. Yesterday, it was put to me, “Don’t worry, Malcolm. We’re going to try independence but, if it fails, we’ll always come back into the UK”. No, my Lords. Will my noble and learned friend make it absolutely clear that once Scotland says yes, that is it? There can be no situation in which Scotland can come in through the back door.

The union of the past 300 years has led to peace, prosperity, wealth and influence for all of us in these sceptred isles. It is a wonderful opportunity that we have grabbed, and every country has grabbed it. The Northern Irish, the Welsh, the Scots and the English have always put people into the mix to make this country great. All that is threatened and there will be huge ramifications for the rest of the United Kingdom. My noble friend Lord Lang, when introducing the debate, said that, whatever happens, we have to have new constitutional arrangements. I totally support him on that. We need to work very hard in the future to make a stronger and better union for the next 300 years.

14:47

[Lord Bilimoria (CB)]

My Lords, the leading Cambridge historian, Dr Clare Jackson, says that politicians on both sides of the Scottish independence debate could learn from King James VI of Scotland, who also became King James I of England. He dedicated his life to creating a truly united kingdom that would see Scotland, England—including the Principality of Wales—and Ireland share more than just a crown. The main thing is that he engaged in a huge public relations exercise using emotive rhetoric, and he knew how to compromise. He made the first attempt at creating a new flag. Dr Jackson said:

“It shrinks the tendency to assume that everything happening now has never been thought of before”—

a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. She added:

“Now exactly 300 years after Queen Anne’s death, the 2014 referendum will decide if the settlement she made will last or if Scotland will once again become an independent country sharing a monarch with England, just as it did throughout the Stuart century”.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lang, for his excellent speech in leading this debate. We have heard all the arguments so far and we will continue to hear them. We have heard about Alex Salmond and his SNP’s wish list and the serious consequences. As the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, said, Scotland is tiny. It has 8.4% of the population of Britain and contributes 8.1% of the GDP. From the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, we heard about the famous Scots in every field imaginable, not just today but historically, always doing brilliantly. Scotland has so much that we need and it has so many hidden gems. Wearing my Cobra Beer hat, Heriot-Watt University very kindly gave me an honorary doctorate. The university has the International Centre for Brewing and Distilling, one of the three finest in the world, and it must remain not just Scottish but British.

Alistair Darling clearly pointed out that Mark Carney, the Governor of the Bank of England, had said that,

“the failings of the Eurozone show that to have a successful monetary union you require fiscal and political union”.

I have said that time and time again. Mr Darling said that,

“the Governor’s judgement on currency unions is devastating for Alex Salmond’s currency plans. Why? Because the whole point of independence is to break the fiscal and political union that makes monetary union possible”.

Of course, Scotland has always had its own bank-notes—and long may they keep them.

Let us remind Alex Salmond about 2008. I have just returned from my annual week at the Harvard Business School. In March 2008, Alex Salmond made a speech at Harvard University and spoke about the “arc of prosperity” through Ireland, Iceland and Norway. He referred to,

“the lesson we draw from our neighbours in Ireland—the … Tiger economy”.

He went on:

“With RBS and HBOS—two of the world’s biggest banks—Scotland has global leaders today, tomorrow and for the long-term”.

We are discovering the strength of that Scottish financial sector—but look at what London has done.

Let us keep this in perspective. In a currency union, Scotland has 10% of GDP and Britain has 90%. If it ever breaks up, we know who will call the shots. Losing the strength and security of the UK pound would have a profound impact on the Scots. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, as Advocate-General for Scotland, sent us a letter which clearly stated:

“The UK Government’s position is clear—Scotland benefits from being part of the UK, and the UK benefits from having Scotland within it”.

The letter gave a list of the “Top 20 Benefits of the UK”. He very clearly spelled out the Government’s stance on the matter.

One prediction following the assumption made by the House of Lords Select Committee on Economic Affairs was that it would result in Scotland accruing around 90% of oil revenues. Its report described this as the,

“economic bridge over which Scotland would pass to independence”,

and expected it to make up for all the loss of finances allocated by our Treasury under the Barnett formula. However, as has been said, the impact of prices in the oil market could just throw this, as could the length of time that oil will last. It would be a very unpredictable source of revenue.

Looking ahead, the university sector in Scotland is strong and we are proud of it. The Scottish Government are maintaining free access to higher education for Scots and people from the EU—except for people from England and Wales. In research funding, to this day, 15% of research for Scottish universities comes from UK charities. If Scotland breaks away, that will not last.

The Prime Minister has assured Mr Salmond that the reform of the Barnett formula, which gives Scots £1,364 per head more spending than the UK average, was “not on the horizon”. He did not say that it will never happen but Scotland has the assurance that that is not on the horizon. On 27 November 2013, YouGov published a poll which asked British citizens how they would vote—if they were able to—on whether Scotland should be an independent country. The response, by political party, was: Conservative, 65% no; Labour, 60% no; Liberal Democrat, 62% no; and even UKIP respondents voted 55% no. The response by gender was: males 57% no and females 54% no. It is overwhelming that the people of Britain, let alone the people of Scotland, do not want this.

Let us look back at history. Adam Smith, the great economic theorist and moral philosopher, never saw himself as Scottish. He was north British. Edinburgh, the Athens of the north, was a great centre of learning and at the heart of the Scottish Enlightenment. The wonderful Balmoral Hotel, where I have stayed, was known as the North British Hotel until the 1980s.

I will draw on my experience in India. The partition of India into India and Pakistan was a huge mistake. It did not last. My father fought for the liberation of Bangladesh. The united India of 1947—despite many attempts by parts of India to break away—has stayed united, and it is stronger united. Scotland today has the best of both worlds, being an independent country but being part of the United Kingdom.

Any Government will have many priorities, but the top four are: first, the security of citizens, both external and internal. If Scotland breaks away, we have heard that defence will go for a six. The second and third priorities are health and education, which the Scots have anyway. The fourth is the economy, and Scotland would be far weaker by being outside the UK.

The key issues are not just practical but the emotional. King James played on the emotional to get unity, and the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, in her excellent maiden speech, said that she was equally proud to be both Scottish and British. My father’s regiment, the 5th Gurkhas shared battle honours with the Cameron and Gordon Highlanders. As a colonel, he made a pilgrimage to Inverness to visit the regiment because it meant so much. These are emotional identities.

In conclusion, my friend Amartya Sen, the Nobel laureate, speaks of identity. We have multiple identities. I am proud to be a Zoroastrian Parsi; I am proud to be an Asian in Britain; I am proud to be Indian; and I am really proud to be British. In the same way, I think that the Scottish are proud to be Scots and proud to be British. David Torrance published a book entitled The Battle for Britain: Scotland and the Independence Referendum. This is not about Scottish independence; this is a battle for Britain and a battle for the United Kingdom, which must stay united.

14:54

[Lord Cavendish of Furness (Con)]

My Lords, I, too, am very happy to thank my noble friend Lord Lang for introducing this debate with such eloquence. His knowledge and unrivalled experience made for utterly compelling listening. I intervene as an Englishman living in Cumbria, not far from the Scottish border. I believe that the forthcoming referendum has significant implications for those of us who live south of the border and for the whole country. I need to declare an interest in that my family own some agricultural land and a holiday park in south-west Scotland near Newton Stewart.

I will leave the technical, constitutional and economic implications of independence mostly to noble Lords better qualified than I to discuss them, except to say that if, as I suspect, the much talked about disconnect between government and the governed has led to the growth of Scottish nationalism, I must point out that that same disconnect exists in England. Certainly, it does in Cumbria. I will say no more about that since it has been touched on by others, other than that I hope my noble friend the Minister will address these anxieties in England and elsewhere throughout the United Kingdom.

Today, I want to touch on the effect, in the event of a yes vote, that such a wrenching asunder would have on the hearts and minds of men and women, mainly on the English side of the border. When I weigh in the balance the possibility of separation, I view the future with great sadness and much foreboding. Those of us whose ancestors lived in the border kingdoms that were neither Scotland nor England might reflect on our sometimes troubled history and on the potential tensions that lie ahead when two nations living side by side start to pursue competing policies on matters of great significance—and this after hundreds years of co-operation.

When independence was last debated in your Lordships’ House before Christmas, my noble friend Lord Steel drew attention to the contribution that Scotland had made to the building of the empire and the Commonwealth, which I think he touched on again today. He said that Scotland’s contribution was greater than its population would suggest, as was the enormous contribution that it made towards the defence of Britain during two world wars. The noble Lord, Lord Steel, said:

“I take pride in that”.—[Official Report, 5/12/13; col. 401.]

So he should. English people cannot take pride in the same way, but I suspect that all rational English men and women feel, as I do, a sense of profound admiration and gratitude for the part that Scotland has played in the historical achievements of these islands over the past 300 years.

I reflect with awe on the Scottish Age of Enlightenment that followed the Act of Union and the benefits it bestowed on England, the British Isles and the world beyond these shores. It is often said—I think that the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, touched on it—that we English are too buttoned up to articulate our affections. How difficult it is, we are told, for an Englishman to say, “I love you”. Is it possible that the deep wells of English affection, esteem, gratitude and kinship are not seen and felt by the Scottish people? Is it possible that these real and enduring sentiments fail to be heard in Scotland simply because we English express them clumsily or not at all?

One quite simple test I might apply to the extent to which Scottishness is valued south of the border is that I would judge it to be a near-universal thing that when an English person is going about his or her business and finds their opposite number to be Scottish, confidence and trust more often than not characterise the encounter. It has always been my instinct that the English-speaking world developed a set of values that are quite different from virtually anywhere else in the world. I do not say that they are better values; I merely say that they are different. These somewhat vague instincts were confirmed for me by reading Daniel Hannan’s book, How We Invented Freedom & Why It Matters. He traces how in these islands people in pre-Norman times would meet in forest clearings where they laid the foundations for a form of government under which the state was the servant and not the master.

We remain the heirs to that ancient tradition. It led to Magna Carta and through it we continue to preserve our freedoms, our property rights, the sanctity of contract, our independent judiciary, habeas corpus, trial by jury and, most of all, representative government. Although Scotland has a subtly different legal system, as was mentioned by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, it is surely beyond doubt that we share with the Scottish this highly successful and ancient culture and set of values. Certainly, both our countries understand what it means to walk in freedom under the law. That is surely the basis of true kinship.

It is surely also true that whenever these freedoms have been under threat, so strong has been the yearning for the Anglo-Saxon settlement, the oppressor has always been absorbed or dispatched whence he came—whether it was overbearing monarch, tyrant or unaccountable official. One of my ancestors was brought down by such high-handedness; his passing was not mourned then, and neither do I do so now. But the most important aspect of this Anglosphere legacy, and where it is so relevant to today’s debate, is that it is not defined by race, nor is it defined by religious faith nor yet by territory. Those who subscribe to it, belong to it. Scotland belongs to it, as does nearly all the English-speaking world.

It might be tempting for a new country to set aside old ways as, of course, it would be entitled to do. If, however, it were to lead to a repudiation of the centuries-old shared inheritance that we have talked about, I think it might lead to a divergence that would be damaging to both our countries.

Unusually for me, I hold in my hand a £50 note. It bears the image of the brilliant Glasgow engineer, James Watt, and his English partner, Matthew Boulton. Between them, and in combination, they enriched Scotland and England enormously. Mr Hannan reminds us that if I were to cut this £50 note in two, neither half would be worth £25. I wish with all my heart that the Scottish people will elect to remain with us, and that if they do we might with profit work together towards what my noble friend in introducing this debate described as the new unionism.

15:02

[Lord Maxton (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Lang, for introducing this debate. I go back far enough with the noble Lord. He was the Scottish Whip and I was the opposition Scottish Whip at the same time. That was way back in the 1980s. I also congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, or Annabel as many of us would prefer to call her, on her maiden speech and the very good way in which she introduced herself to this House. I hope that she will have a long career within the second Chamber of the Houses of Parliament.

I suppose that I am almost unique. I speak with an English accent but I am, unlike the noble Earl, Lord Caithness, 100% Scots. My mother and father were both Scottish. I will have a vote in the Scottish referendum because I live in Scotland. My wife will have a vote, my three sons will have votes and two of their wives will have votes. But my brothers and my sister who live in England, and their children and their wives, will not have votes. They will suddenly become foreigners if Scotland votes yes. It cannot be right for that to happen. It must not be allowed to happen and we must make sure that the vote is a clear-cut no. I say to those who quite rightly have said that a yes vote is for ever, I am hoping that a no vote will last if not for ever, then for a very long time, and that it will be a long time before this issue is raised again.

I have always been a supporter of devolution. I believe in devolution, but devolution is about democracy. In fact, what has happened in Scotland is that nationalism has been the enemy of devolution, not its friend. It has stopped the natural process of devolution taking place in Scotland. Devolution is about giving power to the people to take decisions within their own communities, at the level at which they ought to be taken, in a democratic fashion. What has happened in Scotland is that devolution has stopped in Edinburgh with the Scottish Parliament. There has been no devolution downwards towards local authorities. There have been changes in the way that we vote in local authorities but not in the powers that they have. We now have a single Scottish police force and a single Scottish fire service and we will continue down that line.

Far from being a friend of devolution, if anything, nationalism and the SNP have been the enemy of devolution and have stopped devolution from evolving as it ought to have done—not just in Scotland but in the rest of the United Kingdom. Devolution could have happened in the United Kingdom if, to be honest, the example of what had happened in Scotland had not been there for the people in the rest of the United Kingdom to see. One of my major reasons for speaking today is to say that and say that nationalism and devolution are not the same thing and we must not confuse them.

Yes, we have to move on. We have to take this opportunity of saying that we have to change the way in which the United Kingdom is governed. What I have to say will not surprise noble Lords who have heard me speak before. The concept of a separate Scottish independent nation state—that is what independence means—in the modern world is so old-fashioned and out of date that it is unbelievable. We may be Scots. I am a Scot. I have a son who played sport at a reasonable level for Scotland. But the idea that we should have a separate state as small as Scotland in a global economy is old-fashioned, out of date and not to be contemplated.

If we are going to look at our constitution, please let us take this opportunity to look forward using the ways in which we now can look at the world. We can buy our goods across the world, which is why the young people are not now in Scotland, despite what Mr Alex Salmond thought, supporting the yes vote. They will support the no vote because they believe in an international world—a world bigger and broader than a nation state, where economies are bigger and broader. Even the United Kingdom national government are no longer able to control properly and fully the economy in which we operate because so much of the economy is now outside our control. It is even outside European control.

When we look at our constitution, yes, let us examine it, but this is not just about handing more power to Scotland: it is about ensuring that we now have a modern constitution within the modern world. I hope that point will be taken.

15:08

[Lord Lyell (Con)]

My Lords, about 50 years ago, I remember the great American speaker, Martin Luther King, saying that he had a dream. That was in about 1963. At about that time, I seem to remember that my noble friend Lord Lang was a member of the Footlights—certainly he had some active theatrical career. I want to thank him very much today for allowing me to realise, not quite a dream, because I am a somewhat cocky brute from Angus, but a hope that one day I would be able to hammer home the economy in the House of Lords. In 1963, as far as I can recall, two members of a great institution—the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland—were in your Lordships’ House. Both now, alas, are no longer with us. The Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland has been the greatest influence on my life virtually anywhere, including your Lordships’ House. I hope that the Minister will take that in hand.

I want to concentrate today briefly and in a humble way on not just politics, but the Scottish economy. In 1963, when I was doing my apprenticeship in Glasgow, I remember hearing about something called “growth points”. Your Lordships may remember that in May 1963, Her Majesty, I think, came to open the Rootes factory at Linwood, where a splendid little vehicle called the Imp was to be built. Fortunately, I was kept away from the wheels then.

I have spent the past 40 years in your Lordships’ House. I irritated and bored one of my late noble colleagues in that I always said, “I am an Angus man”. She would go on at me, asking, “What are they saying in the Angus glens?”. I will not hammer it home today all the time but, certainly for me, it is crucial that we discuss great developments in Scotland. I am trained as an accountant and a money man and am particularly keen on the economy of Scotland. Since 1970, during my time in your Lordships’ House, we have seen the rise of the Scottish National Party—charming people; they can be very nice. Your Lordships might want to glance at the English newspaper, the Daily Telegraph, today, where they will find a fascinating article by one Mr Alan Cochrane, who gives one particular view of the tide within one party in Scotland. It is not exactly favourable and pushes on very much in the direction that the noble Lord, Lord Purvis of Tweed, was speaking about after what one hopes will be a no vote in September this year.

I want to concentrate on the aspect of jobs and the economy in Scotland. I look particularly at the need for inward investment—above all, in my own neck of the woods, Angus in Dundee. It was an enormous tribute when the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cullen, mentioned some aspects of research. I am given to understand that, in Dundee, there are world leaders in two or three aspects of life sciences and medicine. We should never forget that there is similar expertise in Edinburgh and Glasgow. We have a huge, world-famous and worldwide talent in Scotland in that particular discipline. I also look at my noble friend the Duke of Montrose, who I think referred to my noble friend Lord Forsyth as being a bit grey—I think I got that right but nobody is less grey than my noble friend Lord Forsyth, who is another Angus man. In the lovely town of Montrose, 25 new jobs have been created with a world-famous pharmaceutical company. Why do such companies come to Montrose? First, roots have already been put down there; secondly, at the moment, the economic climate is very favourable and they are being encouraged into Montrose and Angus.

However, nothing is static. Your Lordships may be startled that most Sundays, being scared witless that the flames of hell may or may not lick me, I attend church in Kirriemuir, which we call Kirrie. I meet many youngsters there, one of whom was head boy at Webster’s. People talk about self-starters, but that young man did things that I could never have thought of and thought of them off his own bat. He studied medicine and worked in an area known to my noble friend Lord Glenarthur, RAF Leuchars. He has taken other holiday jobs, is now thrusting on heavily and will be very successful in Glasgow, where he has just qualified as a doctor. I wonder what 70 year-olds like me discussing politics and economics in Scotland can offer to these youngsters. I am concerned that everything we do and say should improve and help inward investment to Scotland, but particularly to Angus and Dundee. What Mr Carney said in Edinburgh yesterday should be taken on board, studied very closely and admired as an enormous and valuable lesson.

I referred to the tiny town of Kirriemuir, of which I am very proud, and which we refer to as Kirrie. I see the noble Earl is getting excited—I will calm him down. Good, I am so pleased. Kirriemuir was the birthplace of JM Barrie, who wrote the immortal “Peter Pan”. Where did Peter Pan operate? A place called Never Never Land. I do not want Kirrie, Angus or Scotland to turn into that land.

15:15

[Lord Kakkar (CB)]

My Lords, I, too, join in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Lang of Monkton, for the very thoughtful way in which he has introduced this important debate. In so doing, I declare my own interest as professor of surgery at University College London and a member of the General Medical Council because I wish to confine my comments to two very important and practical areas which I think will be profoundly affected if Scotland were to be separated from the United Kingdom. Those are the regulation of the medical profession and the conduct of biomedical research. I do that building on the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Lyell.

First, I reflect on something that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, said earlier, when he recounted a long list of those of Scottish descent who have made a profound impact on the life of the United Kingdom. I would add to that some names of people who have made a profound impact on the way that we practise medicine—for instance, Sir John Hunter, a famous Scottish surgeon who came to England and who is considered the father of modern surgery. He described a methodical and scientific approach to the practice of surgery that still defines how surgery is practised globally and has resulted in the profession of surgery in the United Kingdom having made so many contributions to global surgery as well as being so highly regarded.

We have Sir Alexander Fleming, who discovered penicillin—a discovery that profoundly changed our ability to impact on human health, for which he received the Nobel Prize. Another Nobel laureate, Sir James Black, developed through new pharmaceutical entities beta blockers, which have profoundly changed the way in which we treat heart disease and high blood pressure, and H2 antagonists, which helped us to improve the management of ulcers, avoiding the need for major surgery and treating most ulcers of the stomach and duodenum with drug therapy. From among your Lordships, we have my noble friend Lord Patel, who was formerly a famous and distinguished professor of obstetrics and gynaecology in the University of Dundee and, more broadly in the United Kingdom, a highly regarded chairman of the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges and president of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists. Therefore, the links across medicine in the United Kingdom are profound and have existed for many centuries.

In the White Paper that attended the more formal announcement of the Scottish Government’s proposals for the referendum and for independence, there is in the question-and-answer section a statement about the wish of the Scottish Government that medical regulation continue across the entire United Kingdom as it does at the moment. But I do not think that that is going to be necessarily and easily possible.

At the moment, the Medical Act 1983 governs the way in which the General Medical Council operates. That Act is influenced by the professional qualifications directive of the European Union—which I shall come to in a moment. The situation for medical regulation is that three categories of doctor appear on the medical register. The first is graduates of UK medical schools, including the four schools in Scotland that are recognised as part of that Act as being able to award primary medical qualifications in the United Kingdom. Graduates of those universities, including Edinburgh, Glasgow, Dundee and Aberdeen, will immediately upon successful achievement of their examination and their first year of practice become full members of the register. A second category is those who hold a recognised European primary qualification in medicine. They have registered elsewhere in the European Union and will automatically have registration on the general medical register. The third category is for those who come not from UK medical schools or appear on European registers but are graduates from elsewhere in the world; for example, the United States, Canada and Australia. They are considered international medical graduates and have to take a separate examination to demonstrate their skills before they can apply for registration. Indeed, if they come with specialist skills from elsewhere in the world, they may well have to undertake further specialist training in the United Kingdom before they are able to appear on the register.

That would be the situation for those graduating from Scottish medical schools if Scotland were to separate from the United Kingdom—some 850 students due to graduate in 2016 and some 800 in 2017. Of course, the situation might be solved if Scotland were to become part of the European Union, but, as we have heard in today’s informative debate, that may take many years. In the intervening period, it may not be as simple as to say that we could have some form of legislation in the Westminster Parliament to allow those graduating from Scottish medical schools or those undertaking Scottish training programmes for specialist practice to be uniquely recognised in the remaining United Kingdom, because that will be affected by the professional qualifications directive of the European Union.

It is a very serious problem. Forty per cent of those who have qualified with a primary medical qualification from a Scottish university reside in England. This means that a large number of potential practitioners in the intervening years could be affected by our inability to offer registration and recognition of their degrees. Indeed, if they are not part of the European Union, it is not clear where they will be able to practise apart from in Scotland.

The second area to be affected if Scotland were to be separated from the United Kingdom is medical research. We have heard already in this debate that some 13% of research council funding from the United Kingdom research councils is spent in Scotland with only 8% or thereabouts of the GDP for our country coming from Scotland, so Scotland does disproportionately well. When we look at spending by the Medical Research Council in Scotland, we see that it is close to 17% of its budget, including the many important medical research facilities and units that exist there. It would be unprecedented for a research council to be able to spend its taxpayer-funded opportunities in a foreign country. The infrastructure across the United Kingdom that has put us at the forefront of biomedical research—some 12% of all citations in biomedicine come from the United Kingdom; it is a remarkable intensity of research effort that we are able to contribute globally—would be undermined if the important links between Scottish biomedical research institutions and the rest of the United Kingdom, designed in such a strategic fashion to exploit the most important research opportunities for our country, were to be broken through the separation of Scotland.

15:22

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, who, not for the first time, has brought his tremendous and forensic skill in his subject to the debate in this House. It has been a remarkable debate, and I think that we are all very much in the debt of my noble friend Lord Lang for introducing it with such quiet passion and so comprehensively. I very much hope that this debate will be read in Scotland. I would draw attention to one or two speeches without in any way casting aspersions on others, but I hope that what the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, has just said about medicine will be taken in, as I hope will be what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cullen, said about research. I hope that what the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, said about the possible membership of the European Union of an independent Scotland will be taken into account, because he did for that subject, with his forensic skill, what the Governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, did yesterday when he talked about the implications of a common currency between an independent Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom.

Like many of your Lordships, I can claim a mixed lineage. I am not quite as mixed as my noble friend Lord Caithness. I must say that the words of the Scottish play came to mind: “Who would have thought that the noble gentleman could have had so much blood in him”.

My earliest vivid memories of Scotland are of being in Stranraer in May 1945, where my father was stationed throughout the war, when victory was being celebrated. Even now, I can think of the wonderful excitement of that day. I was brought up to believe, with my Scottish ancestry, that I was part of a very great country that had done the world a very great service. My two sons have been educated in Scotland. One of them fought side by side with my noble friend Lady Goldie, whom we are delighted to see today, in the election in 1999 for the Scottish Parliament. He lives in Scotland with his family, and at least three of them will be voting in the referendum next year, including my 16 year-old elder granddaughter. That is not at all untypical of people in this country. The noble Lord, Lord Maxton, talked of the unfairness of part of his family being able to vote and the other part not

In 1707, the most remarkable national marriage of all time took place. The marriage metaphor has been used several times during this debate—very tellingly by the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, when she talked about divorce. The question is: has this marriage, having lasted for more than 300 years, reached the stage where we should have a divorce? I would argue most passionately that it has not. As I have said before in this House, this nation is much greater than the sum of its individual parts. Scotland coming into the United Kingdom transformed North Britain into Great Britain. My noble friend Lord Forsyth, in a truly remarkable, passionate and eloquent speech, talked about all the contributions that Scotland had made to philosophy, the arts, architecture, science, commerce and medicine. How right he was to do so. We have heard of all the Scottish parliamentarians who have held supreme office in the United Kingdom Parliament.

This has been a partnership of equals, although one of the countries is very much smaller in population than the other. If we move towards an independent Scotland, we move towards a little Scotland. Those who are attracted by the eloquence of Mr Salmond—he is remarkably eloquent—should bear in mind that they would be voting for a much reduced country, a country with far less influence in the councils of the world. The point was ably made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, that Scotland really punches above its weight.

It would be nothing short of a tragedy, in a world where large power blocs will increasingly dominate affairs, if we cut our kingdom asunder. We need the Scottish people in the United Kingdom, and I believe that they derive strength from being part of the United Kingdom. That has been a constantly reiterated theme in this debate. Should we have divorce? No. Why not? For the same reason that many individuals should not have divorce: for the sake of the children. I think of my grandchildren growing up in Scotland. I want them to grow up as proud citizens of the United Kingdom, deriving all the advantages that they currently can. I do not wish them to be part of a small, if perfectly viable, nation that has turned its back on history, that has turned away from the opportunities that it still has.

I want Scotland to continue to be an integral part—a national part with its own absolute identity—of a great country that occupies a position in all the major councils of the world. That is what is at stake in September of this year, and I sincerely hope and devoutly pray that the people of Scotland realise that we want them and we need them, as much as I hope that they will realise that they need us.

15:29

[Lord Parekh (Lab)]

My Lords, we have had an absolutely fascinating and rich debate, led brilliantly by the noble Lord, Lord Lang. While listening to this debate I asked myself a simple question and conducted a simple experiment. The debate is intended not merely for our edification; it is intended to influence people on the other side of the border in the hope that they might act in a way that we would like them to act. So I asked myself: imagine a Scotsman, whether or not he is sympathetic to independence, sitting in our midst, listening to the debate—would he have been swayed by our arguments? What would he feel? If I for a moment am being a devil—devil is not the right word—or if I try to share with you some of the thoughts that I had, I hope you will forgive me.

I think that a Scotsman sitting here would have made two complaints. First, he might say that we are trying to engage in the politics and economics of fear: “If you break away, your kids will not be able to come to our medical schools. You will not be able to share the Bank of England and all its facilities. You will not be able to do all this”. In other words, we are trying to play on his fear. If he is strong-minded or bloody-minded enough, he might say, “Well, this is how our relations have existed for the past 300 years”. Scots have resented, rightly or wrongly, this English sense of superiority—even a certain degree of arrogance—and always felt that we were telling them what they should do. They would say, “This is precisely the language of arrogance that we have resented for 300 years”. I am not saying that that is right. I am trying to imagine the worst and asking myself how I could address an interlocutor who might view our debate in this way. So his first complaint would be that we were looking at the problem almost entirely from the standpoint of what it will do to Scotland, and what harm it will do to Scotland, rather than from a shared standpoint where, as the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, pointed out, we might say, “Look, we have been in it together. If you break away, not only do you suffer, but we who have been part of you, suffer as well. As old comrades, you would certainly not want to do that to us, no more than we would want to do that to you”. So I think that the first thing we would need to ask is how we can conduct the argument not simply in terms of what harm it could do to Scotland but in terms that always emphasise the shared “we”—how we would feel pain and how we would both suffer if that were to happen.

The second complaint that the imaginary Scotsman sitting here might have is that in the debate we have concentrated on self-interest, defined in narrow materialistic terms: economic, educational, political, military, defence and so on. As we know from the history of nationalist movements the world over, people are not guided by economic interests alone. If that were the case, Bangladesh would not have separated, Pakistan would not have broken away. People are guided by deeper emotions as well. What we need to be asking ourselves is: have we been able to appeal to the Scotsman’s emotions? Have we got him to feel that there is a deeper engagement required on his part? We need an appeal to emotions, to shared historical memories, to a common imagination and to a certain shared vision of the future. In other words, telling the Scot that, “This is what we have done together, and if we stay together, this is what we are capable of doing in the future, not only for ourselves but also for the rest of the world. Why do we not continue this co-operative enterprise upon which we embarked 300 years ago?”.

These would be the two points that might come to us from my imaginary, hypothetical Scotsman sitting here listening to our debate. I would therefore suggest that in addressing this question, and in participating in the debate that will take place on the referendum in September, we need to redress this balance in two ways. We should be thinking of the shared “we” rather than merely what harm this will do to Scotland, and we should be appealing to collective memories, shared memories and a shared vision—making sure that we are talking in idioms which they fully share, and which historically resonate with their own memories. People are, after all, guided by a profound sense of what they were and what they wish to be.

How would an argument of this kind be framed if I were trying to convince my imaginary, hypothetical Scottish interlocutor? I have been asking myself that, and I think that I would do it in the following two ways. First, it is striking that Britain has an ambiguous record of dealing with multiethnic and multinational societies. When we ruled over multiethnic societies in the Empire we were not terribly successful and ended up imposing more partitions than almost any other imperial country, including in Cyprus, India, Rhodesia, Ireland and elsewhere. At home, however, our record has been one of the best in the world. We have been able to sustain a successful multinational and multiethnic society in a way that no other country has. Only empires have done that, but we have beaten that record by creating a democratic framework within which a multinational society could be maintained. That has been made possible with Scottish co-operation and encouragement. We could emphasise that what we have achieved is unique in history, precisely because of this. It is not necessary for the Scots to embark along the path of independence when a much more sensible, realistic and imaginative alternative is available to them, as was suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Lang.

The second way in which we might formulate the argument would be to appeal to the liberal democratic social order that we have created. The kind of liberal democracy which we have created in Britain is a beautiful synthesis of English liberalism and the Scottish sense of community and solidarity, each regulating the other. Neither of us alone could have created the kind of liberal democracy that we have. It is not shared by France or Germany; it is unique to us. We can show that this great historical legacy that we have, and which we pass on to the rest of the world, could not have been possible without this kind of joint enterprise. I suggest that appealing to that shared history, and to a shared vision of what we can do together, might be a better way of appealing to the Scots and taking them with us, rather than merely telling them how independence would cost them dear.

15:37

[Lord Moynihan (Con)]

My Lords, not surprisingly, I intend to concentrate my remarks on British sport. Going back as far as 1969, I had the privilege of steering the Welsh senior men’s four at the home countries international in Monmouth. England, our opposition, took an early lead and moved three lengths clear of us. Unbeknown to them, the reeds hidden just under the surface extended well into the centre of the stream following the final bend on that stretch of the River Wye. Taking a wide berth, we passed them with 200 metres to go and, as they were well and truly caught up in the reeds, we fortunately won. I was intensely proud of that crew and treasure my Welsh vest to this day.

The example serves to show that I have no intention whatever of diminishing the pride which is engendered in home countries competing in their own right. Our history has brought with it great benefits to the home nations, but they did not need independence to secure their contribution. Had we in the United Kingdom not given football the laws of the game in 1882, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would not have disproportionate influence over world football, as those four votes continue to be matched by only four other FIFA-appointed members of the International Football Association Board.

I want to consider the Motion today in the context of the pinnacle of world sport: the Olympic movement, in which I had the privilege of serving for seven years as chairman of the British Olympic Association. The Olympic Movement has a global impact and brand, making the rings one of the most powerful symbols in the world and lifting the spirit and passion of people across the United Kingdom and the world, not least through the London Games in 2012. Here, as in so much of sport, it was our recent history in the United Kingdom that shaped the modern Olympic movement.

On 14 September 2012, as chairman of the British Olympic Association, I travelled with our athletes from Kelvingrove Art Gallery through to George Square for the official homecoming parade of Scotland’s Olympic and Paralympic athletes. Double cycling gold medallist Sir Chris Hoy, gold medal rower Katherine Grainger and gold medal Paralympic cyclist Neil Fachie took part. Scottish athletes won a record-breaking 14 medals at the London Olympics and 11 medals at the Paralympics. I must be the only Conservative in history to have been given an ovation by a packed crowd in George Square.

It is athletes past, present and, above all, future, who concern me most. We took 541 athletes from across the UK to London 2012 as Team GB. Not one came to seek an independent home nation to represent them. On the contrary, they demonstrated enthusiasm and pride in wearing the vest of a Team GB London 2012 athlete. Of course, they knew that had they represented an independent home nation, they would have received a fraction of the funding and support given to our athletes by the governing bodies, the coaches, the “ologists” and the support staff whom the British Olympic movement brought together.

Talk to the athletes. Talk to Chris Hoy or Kath Grainger and, while understandably they stay out of politics, they will praise to the skies the support they had throughout their careers from their British governing body of sport, which was there to provide them with a performance pathway to gold.

I want the best of British to come together under the banner of Team GB during the Olympic and Paralympic Games. We owe it to young athletes in the United Kingdom to give them all, equally, the best opportunity to succeed and to witness the support and pride I witnessed that day in George Square for the Scottish athletes, for Team GB and for the British Olympic Association.

We have a 100-year history behind us, and I salute the contribution of great Scottish Olympians to British success. Many of Scotland’s finest athletes, of whom we are all proud, have served the United Kingdom with remarkable distinction. The very first British Olympic competitor, and Scotland’s and Great Britain’s first Olympic gold medallist, was the Scot, Launceston Elliot, the single-handed weightlifter—sadly, it is no longer an Olympic sport. Wyndham Halswelle was the first Scot to win an individual Olympic athletics title and is still the only British athlete to win a complete set of gold, silver and bronze medals, excluding relays. A veteran of four Boer War battles, he served Britain with distinction, ultimately becoming Captain Halswelle and being killed in action by a sniper bullet to the head in a trench on 31 March 1915. More recently, the great boxer Dick McTaggart, who won lightweight gold at the 1960 Rome Olympics, spent six years in the RAF. They were great Scottish Olympians and Great Britons. We owe Scotland a huge debt of gratitude. All of us should be immensely proud of the contributions made by its athletes.

With the exception of football, which is unquestionably a professional sport built on clubs and managers who transcend the borders of the world, the remaining 25 summer sports and the winter sports depend for their success on the infrastructure put in place to support British athletes. Of course, the sports men and women proudly represent their clubs and home nations, but in so doing, as at the Commonwealth Games, they leave, albeit temporarily, their sporting home—their British-based squad—in order to compete.

As my noble friend Lord Lang said in his opening remarks, there is a danger of letting this become an introspective debate in Scotland. We should instead focus on the loss to all of us outside Scotland should independence be achieved, for this is our debate. The huge historical, practical and political benefit we derive from the union will be lost to all of us. To break the bonds which connect us would be deeply damaging to the wider interests of British sport and, above all, to the next generation—and not just the athletes of Scotland would be the losers.

15:43

[Lord Sutherland of Houndwood (CB)]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, on a perfectly turned maiden speech. I look forward to many more. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lang, for giving us the opportunity to debate this important topic, and particularly for the focus he placed on the United Kingdom. This is the unexplored area of the national debate that we must pursue. I also thank him for his analysis of what the future might hold and should hold. Thinking of this sort is fundamental and we must begin to respond to his comments, as has already happened this afternoon in the House.

My own starting point for this debate is the old saying, “If it ain’t bust, don’t fix it”. It ain’t bust. The United Kingdom is doing great things. It is in comparatively good order, as we look around the world. It has a record of achievement that arises from it being the United Kingdom. I will focus on this in relation to my own patch of the world: universities and research. It is easy to see the advantage to Scotland of the United Kingdom focus on research funding. In 1992, when legislation went through to set up separate Scottish funding councils for the universities, a number of us put great effort into retaining the UK base for research councils. Happily, our arguments—arguments from my fellow vice-chancellors in Scotland, England, Ireland and Wales—won the day. It was not automatic that they would. We combined to say that this was the right direction for research funding in Britain.

The success of the British research effort is extolled throughout the world. America is the great champion; China is beginning to bite very hard and there are other countries, notably Australia, which are pushing on this. However, the British contribution to the building of international knowledge and understanding of our world and of ourselves is massive, and is recognised as such. I have no doubt that one factor in this is that there has been a national United Kingdom focus on research strategy and funding. Long may that continue. It is a reality as well as a matter of reputation, which I will illustrate in a moment.

We have heard these numbers before but, in good House of Lords practice, I will repeat them—but only once, not twice. Scottish universities earn 13% of the total UK research council funds, based on 8.4% of the population. That is a significant gain for Scotland. UK charities spend more than £1 billion a year on research in these islands and, again, Scotland achieves 13%—well above whatever measure you would normally take.

The point is that both the research councils and the charities base their research funding on merit and peer review, not on sectional, national interest. That is why, again, the UK punches above its weight, as does Scotland. Both the UK and Scotland would be diminished if they were to be separated. Siren voices argue, “Don’t worry, it will be all right. All will be well. We will separate and then, perhaps, we will continue with the current arrangements and the amount of money flowing to Scotland will be proportionately high”. Did the current Scottish Government, who are pushing this policy, ask, for example, the Wellcome Trust what it thought about this? The Wellcome Trust is one of the two major drivers of research excellence in this country, particularly in the biological and medical sciences. It says:

“Our future commitment, and the eligibility of Scottish institutions for trust support, would need to be reviewed”.

It will not automatically flow through.

The Wellcome Trust points out that it gives money to overseas bodies, largely to those in countries which are not wealthy enough to have their own research budgets. It has two reasons for doing so, and two reasons for worrying if it had to consider Scotland as an overseas territory. What about additional and diverse regulations applying in Scotland to the use of research funds, as distinct from England? It would complicate its procedures and be an inhibition to it; it has made that plain. It worries, too, about possible changes to the governance of universities. It understands very well that good research practice relates to good governance. If you do not have leadership in universities that cam make strategic decisions—and that is not the direction of the current Scottish Government—your research and other performance will fall back.

The Government in Scotland clearly think that they can do a deal with Research Councils UK in any future separate status. They are whistling in the dark. The noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, made the point that talking about pals in this area will not do. I had lots of pals who were vice-chancellors in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, but I can tell you, when they see the numbers spelt out that show what the research councils currently give to Scottish research, there will be no “paliness” about it—it will be a straight deal. I calculate that if they were contributing pro rata, they would put in, roughly, £150 million to £160 million, and they currently get £257 million. That is a huge gap. When that is seen, transparently, I cannot believe that English vice-chancellors will line up to say, “Well, that’s all right then”. Therefore, the idea of a cosy deal on this is nonsense.

The benefits to the UK have been immense. I have already mentioned the volume and quality of research in the medical and biological sciences, and the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, made the same point. The strength of what goes on in Dundee, Glasgow and Edinburgh, complemented by excellent work in Aberdeen and St Andrews, gives Scotland its reputation. That is based on the current arrangements, which are UK-wide—and long may they remain so.

15:51

[Lord Selsdon (Con)]

My Lords, about 24 hours ago I introduced, on a whim, a Private Member’s Bill called the Scottish Referendum (Consultation) Bill, which aims to make provision for certain Scottish people resident outside Scotland to be consulted ahead of the 2014 referendum on Scottish independence. This was not a plot. I was brought up to believe many things, one of which was that if you were Scottish you had to be a “Mc” or a “Mac”, but only two of each spoke today. As your Lordships know well, there was an extremely important Scot, or Scottish-Italian, called Machiavelli, so I will try, in a certain Machiavellian atmosphere, to suggest something to noble Lords. I am not proposing that Alex Salmond has any Machiavellian tendencies, but he did live in a place called 6 Charlotte Square that belonged to us once upon a time, and I should quite like to get it back.

A name such as “Selsdon of Croydon” does not make you seem very Scottish. However, I am a Baronet of Polmood in the County of Peebles, and my grandfather was MP for Glasgow, Lanark and North Down, and ended up in Croydon—so I am totally United Kingdom. I feel very strongly about these things because we also played a great part: we were the Scottish line, McIlwraith, McEacharn & Co. We shipped more people to Australia than anybody else. Live meat went out, and then, with Scottish help, we developed a chilling machine that allowed us to bring dead meat back, meaning sheep and lambs. Over that period, we shipped thousands of people. Of course, we became Lord Mayor of Melbourne and got a knighthood there, having got a baronetcy in Scotland as well. Therefore, I am Sir Malcolm McEacharn Mitchell-Thomson, Baronet of Polmood in the County of Peebles, and Baron Selsdon of Croydon. Once I saw in a train a sign that read, “Do not pull the chain when the train is standing at the station”, to which someone had added, “except at Woking or Croydon”.

I approach this today with a sense of humour because there are now some great opportunities for us to consult Scots around the world. Noble Lords will find a brief in the Printed Paper Office which the Library helped me to prepare, which says that effectively 5.5 million people were born in Scotland, of Scottish birth, of whom 79% are in Scotland, 15% in “Other UK”, 3.8% in Australia, Canada and New Zealand, and a few in the United States. However, the relationship is not necessarily by birth. Everyone has a domicile of origin at birth, normally from their father. In Scotland, that domicile of origin is of the earliest recorded ancestor, and it passes through the male line from one generation to another unless and until a descendant specifically acquires a new domicile of choice. If the parents were not married at the time of birth, the domicile of origin passes through the female line, and it is estimated that that and related issues may have led to up to 40 million people fairly claiming Scottish ancestry. I feel that we might have a duty to consult these people before the referendum. How that should be done is surely fairly simple.

In my case, with the different family names that I have, I am not ashamed of being a Selsdon of Croydon but I would rather be, as I am, Malcolm McEacharn. Over time, if we look at how the movements went, we can see that the Scythians were the first to come across, of course. They arrived, and when they got to Ireland, or Scottish Ireland, they were welcomed there, as were all guests; then they were told that there was no room so they should go over to the kingdom of Albanectus, which was in fact Scotland—or, maybe, in those days, Albania.

If we look back at our history, it is one of migration; within the Scottish blood there is a desire to travel and to move and to make the best of what you can wherever you may be upon the face of this earth. So the challenge to government is how it could possibly arrange some form of consultation with all those 20 million to 40 million Scots who live abroad, in the empire or wherever it may be. I leave noble Lords with that thought. This is not a major speech, but I think that we have a duty to try to consult the wider diaspora before we make final decisions.

15:56

[Baroness Quin (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, very much welcome this debate and would like to congratulate warmly the noble Lord, Lord Lang, but with a slight touch of envy. I entered in vain the Private Member’s Ballot to try to secure a debate on precisely this subject, so I very much welcome his successful efforts in so doing today, and the manner in which he introduced it.

I am very glad that the terms of the debate are about the implications for the United Kingdom as a whole, because I have been worried that, particularly south of the border, we have been somewhat sleepwalking towards this situation and not really considering its full implications or how much we should treasure the union that has been so widely appreciated in comments around the Chamber today.

I come to this debate as a borderer—in fact, I frequently walk across the border in the magnificent Cheviot hills—and as someone who was born and brought up north of Hadrian’s Wall, which is sometimes misleadingly referred to as the border, even though we know that in the days of the wall England and Scotland did not exist in anything like the forms that we know today. However, as a borderer, I have always felt utterly at home in both Northumberland and the Scottish borders, and the thought of having an international frontier, and possibly even a different currency, naturally alarms and dismays me.

Let me say clearly that I respect the right of people in Scotland to have a referendum and to decide their future, but I hope that in making their decision they will think of the effect on the rest of us and of our common sense of identity and who we are. Many of us south of the border—I include myself in this—do not want to have to increasingly define ourselves as exclusively English rather than British. There is the even more alarming thought of becoming a foreigner in part of what we think of as our common heritage and country. Many of us are genuinely British. It has been referred to today how many of us have mixed ancestry. I certainly have some Scottish ancestry, although I doubt that I could qualify under the terms of the consultation that the noble Lord, Lord Selsdon, has just outlined—although I am married to a Mac, so that might help. But many of us have that mixed background and have roots in all parts of the UK.

It may be worth adding that many people have come to live in Britain in recent decades, and they chose to settle in the UK rather than in England, Scotland or Wales. Their sense of belonging will also be greatly changed if there is a yes vote north of the border.

Being mixed is a cause for celebration. I was intrigued to note the statistics released by the Macsween haggis company, showing that 60% of its production went to England. Having participated in a Burns night in east Sussex this year, I can well believe it.

My desire to see the union continue is also influenced by my political affiliation. This may not have been stressed much in the debate, but many of us are party-political animals and very much value our political links across the union. Many of my closest political friends are from Scotland and Wales. That is not perhaps surprising given the many important and emotional ties between Tynesiders, Clydesiders, people in the south Wales valleys and the various industrial parts of England. The people in those areas have worked closely together since the beginning of the Industrial Revolution to try to improve living and working conditions and mounted many campaigns with common motivations, principles and ideas. In fact, the National Health Service encapsulates perfectly what I am trying to say. After all, it was created by a Welsh Secretary of State, Aneurin Bevan, in a Government headed by an Englishman, Clement Attlee, under a party founded by a Scot, Keir Hardie. That vividly illustrates what I am trying to say. I am sure that those with other political affiliations will certainly not want to see their strong political affiliations and ties broken through this process.

I strongly support devolution in the UK but regret that it has developed in such a way as to be increasingly confused with national identity. While identity is an important part of devolution, it is not the whole story. Devolution is also about decentralising and taking decisions at the most appropriate level. I regard the outcome of the devolution vote in the north-east of England as a tragedy but believe that the issues it raised have not gone away and will, I hope, be revisited at some time in the future.

In conclusion, if there is a yes vote next September, I will wake up the morning after that feeling that I no longer belong to the country I thought I did. It will be traumatic for many of us but I hope fervently that that will not happen and that in the next few months we will celebrate what we have achieved together and resolve to achieve even greater successes in the future.

16:02

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno (LD)]

My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to take part in this debate because, as others have said, the referendum in Scotland will affect not only Scotland itself but every other part of the United Kingdom, especially Wales. If Scotland leaves the UK, 59 Scottish Members of Parliament will be removed from the House of Commons, 58 of whom are not Conservatives—only one is a Conservative. That would not occur under proportional representation, but 58 of those will be opposition Members. If that happens, it will be much easier to obtain a Conservative majority in England, Wales and Northern Ireland than it is at present. I know that fair-minded Conservative Members will be as horrified as I am that this perpetual Tory majority could squeeze the rest of the United Kingdom.

Wales has never had a majority of Conservative MPs. I looked back to 1885 and found that in that year there were 29 Liberals in Wales and four Tories. In 1906, 1997 and 2001, not a single Conservative was elected in Wales. Therefore, a party which in 140 years has never returned the largest number of MPs in Wales would be ruling in a country which has rejected it time and time again. Usually in Wales the Conservatives will have, say, 20% of the vote, so 80% of the people of Wales will be subject to an alien party, as well, of course, as being subject to England. This would be colonial rule returned. The immediate cry would be for Welsh independence. People such as me who are in favour of a federal solution for the whole UK—we have not really spoken about that—might join the independence bandwagon, because Wales would be ruled by a party that had never been in the majority there, and that represented only 20% of its people.

We have to think of this. England would rule; Scotland would have gone; Northern Ireland would be there; and Wales would be subject to the rule of the 20% over the 80% of the people who were not Tories. A yes vote in Scotland to independence would deny us the opportunity of discussing the federal answer to our demands. We must go to that discussion next: a federal answer should be discussed increasingly in the years ahead.

I speak only briefly today to say that if the majority of the people of Scotland want independence then they must have independence, because the people of a country ruled in this way have the right to give their opinion. On this occasion, however, I think that I can speak for the people of Wales of all parties if I ask them, “Scotland, please stay with us, because otherwise we will see the dissolution—the end—of the UK as we know it”.

16:06

[Lord Nickson (CB)]

My Lords, I am honoured to be sandwiched between two Welshmen. To the best of my knowledge, the Nicksons were border reivers and, before the union of the Crown, stole cattle equally from the Scots and the English. I am delighted that my old colleague and friend the noble Lord, Lord Lang, has had such a wonderful debate and made such a memorable speech to launch it. He has instigated 40 other wonderful speeches around this House, and I hope that he is proud of that because he most certainly deserves to be. He was my boss when Scottish Enterprise came into being; I was its first chairman. Economic conditions were a bit difficult and we had a pretty difficult birth, but we can both be relatively happy that the organisation put up then is broadly still trying to deliver enterprise in Scotland a quarter of a century later. We were also colleagues on another board, that of General Accident.

It is a great sadness to me that most of the companies for which I ever worked in Scotland now do not have their names. General Accident is now Aviva in Norwich, Collins has gone, and Scottish & Newcastle succumbed to the Danes. Scottish & Newcastle had equally good provenances north of the border in Edinburgh and south of it in Newcastle. God help us that it happens but it occurs to me that, were the yes vote to come to fruition and had I still been at Scottish & Newcastle, if it were in our shareholders’ interests we would have moved everything we could to Newcastle pretty quickly. That is what I fear might well happen for business if there were a yes vote. Business wants certainty. It wants to know that it can make long-term investments with the confidence that they will be worth while. It does not want all the changes that will inevitably happen. If there were a yes vote, do not let us think that what happens at that moment will stay; there will be further divergence and further difficulties for business in terms of regulation. Things will become more difficult. Do not let us assume either that this is not being looked at by global businesses, from wherever their headquarters are, whether it is Calgary, Houston or Hong Kong. Do not let us think for a moment that what is going on now in Scotland is not going into their corporate planning for the future.

When I thought about what to say in this debate, I thought that I would talk a little about business, which I have done, and secondly about currency. It would be quite impertinent for me, following what was said by the governor and the speeches made here today, to launch into the issue of currency. However, there is one issue that has not been mentioned. The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, mentioned Scottish banknotes. The noble Lord, Lord Cavendish of Furness, produced a £50 note out of his pocket. I have here a £10 note. On it is the face of Robert Burns.

I have not seen that it is on one of Alex Salmond’s wish lists to retain Scottish banknotes. However, I would go back slightly further than the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, to 1694 and the Bank of England Act, and to 1695 and the Bank of Scotland Act. We then come to 1727, after the Darien adventure, and the RBS challenging the Bank of Scotland monopoly. Ever since then, through the centuries, the ability to produce Scottish banknotes has been defended. If we go forward another 100 years, Sir Walter Scott is credited with leading a campaign to defend the ability of Scottish banks to print Scottish notes. He did it under the most wonderful pseudonym of Malachi Malagrowther, but he got the credit for it anyway. Over another 200 years we have been through various banking Acts, culminating in the Banking Act 2009. All of them have given the right for Scottish banks to produce Scottish banknotes.

However, as we all know, they are not strictly legal tender. They are promissory notes, unlike the Bank of England notes. The governor said yesterday that in negotiations various things would have to be given up in terms of sovereignty. I wonder, if the Government were wishing to be tough, if they might say to Alex Salmond that he cannot have Scottish banknotes any more. In any case, they are only issued by three Scottish banks, two of them largely owned by the British taxpayer, the other owned by the Australians, so how will he have the right to produce Scottish banknotes? However, as I believe that he is a man of great ambition, perhaps he has in mind that having come from the Royal Bank of Scotland, in some 50 years’ time he might see his own head on a Scottish banknote. I hope that that does not happen.

16:12

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Nickson, speaking with great authority on Scottish currency, and with perhaps unique impartiality, as his ancestors plundered on both sides of the border. It is a great pleasure to congratulate my noble friend Lord Lang on the securing of this debate. He showed quiet passion and devastating analytical skill in examining the question of Scottish independence. I will also look at the question of currency, but before doing so, I will say how good it was to hear from my noble friend Lady Goldie, who is not here at present, on the occasion of her maiden speech. I have known her for many years. She, of course, led the Scottish Conservatives in the Scottish Parliament while I led the Welsh Conservatives in the National Assembly for Wales. We often had the opportunity to compare notes, policies, horror stories and war wounds—metaphorically, of course. We often joined forces on devolution issues. I know, as she has demonstrated, that she will be a massive asset to your Lordships’ House. I can well understand why Holyrood is trying to hang on to her.

I want to focus on two quite separate issues. The first relates to the desire of the Scottish National Party, in the event of a yes vote for separation, to keep the pound sterling. The proposals of that cheeky chappy Alex Salmond are, of course, incredibly dangerous. It would be open to Scotland, on a strictly legal basis, to use the pound sterling as its currency without any negotiations with the rest of the United Kingdom, in much the same way as Panama uses the United States dollar or Montenegro uses the euro. This would not be a currency union but a decision to have no independent Scottish monetary policy. That would be a disaster for Scotland and it would not be good news for the rest of the United Kingdom either.

Therein, of course, lies the problem for a single currency, because it clearly needs a single monetary policy with a single banking regulation and an integrated fiscal policy. These issues are very much central to what the Governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, was setting out in his warning yesterday. It is inconceivable that the remaining United Kingdom—England, Wales and Northern Ireland—would not seek to exercise considerable influence over Scottish fiscal policy, to say the very least, before agreeing to a currency union. Indeed, in all honesty, what we have seen of currency unions in recent years should lead us not to want to touch such a project with a disinfected bargepole.

At the same time, the Scottish nationalists tell us that they want to be members of the European Union. It is very clear that they will have to formally apply to join and to satisfy the other 28 members of their credentials, which is unlikely. They will also have to negotiate an opt-out from an obligation to join the euro, which is virtually impossible. It can only be imagined what all this uncertainty will do to business and jobs north of the border: two sets of negotiations—one to join a currency and one not to join a currency—would be destined to fail. It is the Alex Salmond constitutional hokey-cokey, which would be funny if it were not so serious.

The second issue that I want to touch on has been mentioned by many noble Lords: the constitutional settlement in the light of a no vote, or even in the event of a yes vote. I passionately hope and trust that there is a vote for continuing a union which I fervently believe benefits us all in every part of the United Kingdom in every sense. If, God forbid, there were to be a yes vote, that would still apply. Many speakers, including my noble friend Lord Lang in his excellent introduction, spoke of the need for a new settlement—unionism that recognises the importance of the devolved arrangements in the United Kingdom. In the wake of the vote there will need to be a constitutional convention to look at the powers, not least the fiscal powers, of the constituent powers of the United Kingdom, and at the English dimension which, so far, is the dog that has barely barked on devolution issues. In the case of Wales, a draft Wales Bill is already being looked at, following the response of the Government to part 1 of the Silk report on fiscal powers. I declare an interest as a member of the Silk commission. Part 2 of the Silk report is due to be presented to Westminster in March and will deal with the appropriate place for decisions on other policy issues. That, too, will be relevant in any constitutional settlement. In short, the vote in Scotland is a watershed. I hope that following the vote—and a decisive no vote—there will be such a convention to work out a lasting constitutional settlement for all parts of our kingdom, not least for England.

Magna Carta in 1215 had Welsh and Scottish chapters. The Act of Union, some 500 years later, provided a lasting settlement. Now, some 300 years after, there has been a new settlement. I think that noble Lords will be able to see a clear trend of constitutional settlements. Such a lasting settlement can only be in the interests of all the nations of the United Kingdom.

16:18

[Lord Soley (Lab)]

My Lords, I am delighted to take part in this debate, so ably led by the noble Lord, Lord Lang, not least because it has spelt out many of the difficulties that will face the separatist agenda of the SNP—but also because for the first time, and I very much hope not the last time, I got a sense of the passion in the British people for protecting the union. We heard that from many Scottish Members but I would also like to hear it much more widely. I feel that I am incredibly lucky to have been born and brought up in a group of nations that live together in peace and freedom and under the rule of law and which recognise the cultural differences throughout the United Kingdom. That is one of the most important things that we have and need to protect. One of the messages that I would like to come from today’s debate, loudly and strongly, is that it is time for people outside Scotland to take part in this debate and to say very clearly to the people of Scotland: “We want you to stay. We need you as part of the United Kingdom. You strengthen, not weaken, us, and the reverse is also true”.

One of my objections to the SNP separatist approach is that it has within it—not throughout all SNP voters and not even throughout the SNP membership—a core of narrow-minded nationalism. That also has a reflection in English nationalism. When I hear an English person say, “Well, if they want to go, I don’t care. Get rid of them”, I argue with them, and we should all do so. Why do we want Scotland to stay? We want it to stay because, apart from anything else, the SNP has a dreadful poverty of historical understanding. Basically, they talk about three things: Bannockburn, Culloden and 1707.

There is a much better history—that of the civil war. It was not an English civil war but a war throughout the United Kingdom, although it was not called that then. It got rid of the divine right of kings—in other words, authoritarian government. What did we get in 1707? We got an Act of Union that put an end to the fratricidal killing that took place on both sides of the border, with looting, murder, robbery, rape and everything else. The Act of Union put an end to that over a relatively short historical period.

When I hear Alex Salmond and others talk about separation, I am reminded that nations that break up do not always do so neatly into two parts. The former Czechoslovakia broke up peacefully but with many problems. The former Yugoslavia broke up in violence. The people there also remembered an old battle from 700 years ago and it led to ethnic cleansing. No one pretends that that would happen now with this separatist agenda, but why on earth would one talk of a separatist agenda when we have made a success of a political and economic union that the world envies because it has brought us peace, stability and prosperity? That civil war, followed by the Act of Union, gave us the freedom and prosperity that enabled us to deliver the world-changing Industrial Revolution, which has had no comparison in history apart from the agricultural revolution of 10,000 years ago. We were able to deliver it because we had the freedom to develop it, and it came about not because of Culloden or Bannockburn but because of the much wider recognition of the rule of law underpinning peace, stability and prosperity.

Therefore, the message to all British people everywhere is: start saying loudly and clearly to Scotland, “We want you to stay”. Alex Salmond and others play on the idea of poking the English in the eye, and you can hear that in his language at times. He hopes that some of the English will respond by saying, “Well, we don’t want them”. It plays into the separatist agenda that he believes in.

This is a profoundly serious debate. That is why I took the liberty—and I apologise to those who did not get it—of sending round a pamphlet by the Constitution Society. There are four articles in it but if noble Lords want a good summary of what the problems of separatism would be for Scotland, I suggest that they look at the one by Phillip Blond. It spells out the reality that several speakers have touched on here today—that Scotland can have real independence only within the union. That is also what came out of yesterday’s lecture by the Governor of the Bank of England. Separatism would weaken Scotland and make it more dependent.

Although I would defend absolutely the right of any of the four parts of the United Kingdom to say, “We want to leave”, another thing that needs to be remembered in this debate is that it cannot then dictate the rules to the rest of the United Kingdom. That cannot happen. Therefore, when Alex Salmond says, “We’ll negotiate this and negotiate that”, he has to remember that it is up to the other side to decide whether it wants to be part of that. One thing that Phillip Blond brings out in his article is that you cannot necessarily get what you want; you might not even be able to start on an equal basis in negotiations.

Therefore, I say to the House—indeed, it has been said ably by many speakers and I am pleased to have heard it expressed so well—let us get the passion back into this debate, as we have done today. Let us get the message out and say to the Scottish people that we want them to vote in this referendum and stay in the United Kingdom. The current figures in Scotland on voting preferences show a very large number of “don’t knows”. The almost 1 million Scottish people who live down here, and all those with friends and relatives down here or in other parts of the kingdom or overseas, know that this union has been a great success.

I have never thought of myself as English. I was a confused east Londoner who was never quite sure whether I was a Londoner or British or of the United Kingdom. But, as I grew up, I recognised that the United Kingdom bit was the strength. That is what I wanted and is why I say to this House: “Let us get that message over loud and clear. Let us make sure that the referendum goes the right way in September 2013 and that we can continue in freedom and prosperity”.

16:25

[Lord Horam (Con)]

My Lords, in her excellent short book, Acts of Union and Disunion, the historian, Linda Colley, points out that nationalist sentiment in the UK has always increased during periods of peace. Thus, during the long Victorian peace, we had the Irish issue and home rule; in the inter-war period, Plaid Cymru and the SNP were founded; and now we have an SNP Government in Scotland and a referendum on Scottish independence in the autumn.

Every state in the world has fault-lines of this kind. We are quite normal in that respect and should not excessively beat ourselves up just because we have this problem at this time. Indeed, as migration and globalisation increase—and they will—and memories of our distant wartime past diminish with time, these fault-lines may increase. This problem will not go away. It is also a problem that is a challenge to the whole British polity; it is not just a problem for our Scottish friends. I believe profoundly that the answer to the problem lies in imaginative leadership. As my noble friend Lord Lang so eloquently put it in his introductory remarks, leadership is crucial in this area. We need to look at not only good leadership and good governance but the framework for governance.

In her book, Professor Colley argues that the next thing we should do is establish an English Parliament to match the Scottish Parliament and the Welsh and Northern Ireland Assemblies. Indeed, an English Parliament would be the only way to deal with the West Lothian question. You can ameliorate it by other means but you cannot resolve it. The noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, made the point about the English dog which is not yet barking. This would deal with some of the underlying English resentment, which I felt as a Member of Parliament both in the far north of England and in London. In those two situations, I felt that bubbling away even though it is incoherent and not yet particularly evident. Given that an English Parliament may be sited outside London, I even think that it could deal with some of the north-south tensions which are growing at the moment. The pull of London is still extremely strong and is likely to continue to strengthen. Therefore, the establishment of an English Parliament and proper devolution around the whole country would ease a number of the problems we are faced with at the moment.

If this were to be a viable runner—obviously it is an argument—when should we begin talking about it?

[Lord Cormack]

Never.

[Lord Horam]

My noble friend Lord Cormack and I have to disagree. We agreed the other night on that terrible Bill of which we have finally disposed but we have to disagree on this. I note that he lives outside London and perhaps has some interest in the north-south dimension. None the less, the noble Lord, Lord Lang, made the pertinent point that it would be wrong to discuss the possibility of an English Parliament and wider devolution before the choice is made in the autumn. I respect his judgment on that and perhaps that is where the political wisdom lies. However, in the context of the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, looking at this from afar, as an Englishman trying to see the scene in Scotland as it unfolds, it has occurred to me that adding the idea of an English form of devolution would add something to the Better Together campaign and give it a positive role, which it sometimes lacks at the moment. The noble Lord, Lord Parekh, talked about playing on fear. I do not go that far, but nonetheless it would be a positive element to that vision.

If not before the referendum, I am absolutely at one with the noble Lord, Bourne, in saying that something has to be said about this after the referendum. There has to be some discussion of this problem because again, like the noble Lord, Lord Lang, unionism has to be refreshed. It has to be renewed and we can do that. Again, as the noble Lord, Lord Steel of Aikwood, said, echoing his hero and mine, Jo Grimond, we have to bring government closer to the people. We have become too centralised in this country and people feel impotent. Wider devolution could perform that excellent service which I believe is necessary at this stage in our history.

There is an old saying “never waste a good crisis”. This is not a crisis but it is an opportunity. We should not waste it.

16:31

[Baroness Humphreys (LD)]

My Lords, may I add my thanks to my noble friend Lord Lang for initiating this debate and say how grateful I am for the opportunity of making a contribution to it? It is also a great pleasure to speak after the noble Lord, Lord Horam, and to associate myself with many of the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Soley.

As one of the final speakers in this lengthy debate, I am very aware that I may fall foul of the repetition, hesitation and deviation strictures of a certain radio programme. I hope that noble Lords will forgive me for that. It also gives me the opportunity to say that everything I would have said had I the knowledge, experience and eloquence of noble Lords who have spoken has already been said.

I have no intention at this point of seeking to sway the views of the people of Scotland as to which way they should vote in the forthcoming referendum. I hope to restrict my comments to some of the implications for the United Kingdom as a consequence of the referendum, whatever the result may be. One of two new realities will face us on the morning of 19 September. We will awake to a changed future either as a still complete but politically uncertain United Kingdom as a result of the no vote, or as a new reduced United Kingdom of three nations. Whether we care to admit it or not, the political equilibrium will have changed.

There is a growing acceptance—many noble Lords have spoken about this already—that the status quo will not prevail, even if the people of Scotland vote no. The present constitutional settlement cannot and will not remain static. A no vote will leave the Scottish people in exactly the same position as they are today: with a settlement with which many are unhappy. A no vote will not mean that Scots are content with the devolution settlement as it stands. They will demand further powers to ensure the degree of self-determination they desire and devo-max will probably still be on the agenda. Commentators have already suggested that a no vote will lead to further discussions regarding the constitutional framework and that there could be a devolution of further powers from the United Kingdom Government. I agree with both those premises.

For many Liberal Democrats, the devolution settlements that devolved power to Scotland and Wales are unsatisfactory and need to be addressed. I wholeheartedly concur with the suggestion made today by my noble friends and noble Lords opposite that a convention be established to examine the future structure of the United Kingdom. As my noble friend Lord Bourne has already said, the devolution process in Wales will continue, as the second part of the Silk commission’s report is likely to recommend the devolution of further powers. I look forward to reading the commission’s recommendations. It will give us a genuine opportunity to cast our eyes again over our complex devolution settlement and help define which new powers will allow the Welsh Government best to serve Wales within the United Kingdom. However, in truth, we need a settlement or constitutional framework that recognises the need for more autonomy across the United Kingdom—for Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland but also for London, England and the English regions. The Welsh Secretary of State at the time of the Welsh devolution settlement, Ron Davies, said:

“Devolution is a process not an event”.

By beginning the devolution process, the Blair Government set the United Kingdom on a constitutional journey that continues and will be stopped or reversed only with immense difficulty, upheaval and resentment.

Perhaps the time has come to do what Ron Davies never actually did and begin an attempt to define the events towards which devolution supposedly leads us. The only fair and logical way forward for the nations and peoples of the United Kingdom is for today’s politicians and legislators to develop our constitutional framework with the aim of building a shared future where each of the four nations is an equal partner. If we accept the premise that devolution can lead to an “event” then, arguably, that event is the creation of a quasi-federal union between the nations of the United Kingdom. Building a shared future of this kind may take many years and it may be one which the majority of us will never see. However, one thing is certain: the genie is out of the bottle. Powers and responsibilities gained and exercised by Governments in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland cannot be contained or taken back. Devolution is a process which can only move forward.

My noble friend Lord Roberts of Llandudno has graphically described the possible electoral consequences for the remainder of the United Kingdom if Scotland votes yes. The political landscape he describes is one which should cause us concern. The picture he paints is of a permanent Tory majority in the remainder of the United Kingdom, which might bring great joy to some of my noble friends on the neighbouring Benches but does nothing for democracy and could lead to a complete splintering of the United Kingdom, as my noble friend suggests.

Perhaps because of the desire not to interfere or offer advice to the people of Scotland, we have been sleepwalking towards a constitutional abyss. If Scotland does not vote to leave the United Kingdom this time, we should breathe a sigh of relief, resolve to take stock and embark on those discussions on the constitutional framework which will enable us to build a shared future. The United Kingdom works precisely because it is united. If we value that unity and wish to see it continue, we will all have to learn that a shared future involves accepting and promoting a new union and that this is far more important than stubbornly defending the old.

15:49

[Lord Trimble (Con)]

My Lords, I join other noble Lords in congratulating my noble friend Lord Lang on securing this debate and, indeed, on the quality of his speech. The debate has also been remarkable for the maiden speech of my noble friend Lady Goldie and, of course, for the many other speeches that have been made. They ranged over a whole lot of topics that I will not say much about. However, after listening to the previous few contributions where noble Lords were wondering about the English Parliament, the bogus West Lothian question and others things like that, I suggest to Members that all these matters were discussed at great length and with great learning in the debates in this Chamber and this House on the Irish home rule Bills. Reading all four of them would be a very good idea and would provide a better understanding of the various issues. However, I shall not allow myself to be tempted further down that way.

I had my mind first turned towards this issue some 25 years ago. My noble friend Lord Kilclooney, who is unfortunately not with us, shortly after he had been elected to the European Parliament in 1979, invited me to spend a few days with him—I had been his election agent. When we were there, we bumped into the redoubtable Winnie Ewing. I discovered that John was on quite good terms with her, because the two of them got into quite a friendly conversation. She had with her two other chaps who I spoke to, and they turned out also to be members of the SNP, who were there on an information visit—they were obviously would-be candidates at some point. I said to them, “You know, if you chaps get your way and get an independent Scotland, it will pose a problem for us in Northern Ireland. What would we do? Do we go with Scotland or stay with England?”. One of them said, “Oh, good, it’ll be just like Dál Riata back again” and the other said, “Oh, no!”—so I was glad to see the SNP was clearly united on this issue.

I mention that just to say that this referendum and its outcome has very particular implications for us in Northern Ireland, and it may result in certain issues that are now sleeping coming awake again. Some noble colleagues often ask me what I think about recent developments in Northern Ireland and I say, “No, don’t worry about them; the only thing that I see on the horizon that might destabilise things in Northern Ireland is the Scottish referendum”. I hope, of course, that there will be a clear no vote.

A number of Members have spoken about family. I intended to say just a few words about family, too, because I think that it is relevant. I cannot emulate the noble Lord who took us through all the branches of all the elements that have contributed to him—I am afraid that we Trimbles have no history. Genealogical research in Northern Ireland is extremely limited, so very little can be said about that—we have some oral traditions, but whether there is any truth in them I have no idea. On the other hand, my mother-in-law is Scots. She grew up on a farm just outside Banchory in the north-east. My wife has more Scottish relatives than Northern Ireland relatives, and two of her sisters have moved to Scotland, one after marrying a Scotsman and the other one after marrying a chap from Manchester—but that is another story that is not relevant to this. Through them, I have two Scottish nephews and a niece, but of the three of them, one is at university in Cambridge, the other is a solicitor in London and the third is looking for work in Stirling. I think that we could all find that within our families, which just underlines the extent to which this referendum and this project will divide families throughout the kingdom.

I would be tempted to go through the various evolutions of the policy of the SNP. One of the amusing things about this debate is the way in which the SNP keeps changing its policy and what it wants to do. I was particularly delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, referred us to Alex Salmond’s espousal of the great arc of prosperity. Well, two of those countries effectively went bust; the third, Norway, did quite well. You could say that odds of one out of three might be attractive to a gambler, but they are not, I think, to a prospective Government.

I will now look not at the very obvious difficulties and improbabilities of the SNP position but will sum up what I think it hopes to do if it wins the referendum. It talks about independence, but it is independence where Scotland will retain the crown, and hopes to be in NATO and the European Union. It wants a currency union; it says that 30% of all cross-border entities will continue; and, of course, it wants to keep the Scottish regiments as well. What does all that add up to if you were to look at it? I know that it is highly improbable that this can be done, and there are huge difficulties about almost all the things that Mr Salmond mentions, but if it could happen, what would it be like? It would not really be “independence” as the word is normally understood. My noble friend Lord Empey said that it would be a client state. I had not thought of that phrase, but it looked to me like a sort of dual monarchy. Where have I heard of that before? Oh, yes: Austria-Hungary after 1860 and the dual monarchy there—which is not a terribly good augury for the future, you might think.

What strikes me is that this is devo-max: what Salmond would get is powers of taxation and more control over expenditure, but leaving all the external things pretty well in place. People say that if there is a no vote, there might be devo-max. If they go down that road, they will be giving Alex what he is asking for at the moment even after he has lost the referendum. That is without going into the question of whether devo-max is a good idea—the answer to which is, no, it is not. Again, to get the argument for that, go back to look at the Irish home rule Bills and see how each Bill, one after the other, cut down on the extent of economic devolution to the proposed Irish home rule parliament. It started off with what Salmond would now call devo-max but ended up with a very minimalist position. It all reflects on the highly integrated nature of the British state, which we unravel at our peril.

The reasons for devolution were quite different. I support devolution and would have touched on some other points as well, but I think we need to be very careful about this. If the worst comes to the worst, yes, there are some implications for us, but a number of suggestions have been made in this Chamber today which we should approach with very great care.

16:46

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, I, too, congratulate and thank the noble Lord, Lord Lang of Monkton, on bringing this debate to the Floor of the House. We are in the year of the referendum and the timing of the debate will be regarded as kick-starting the real public debate and action on it.

The debate has been threaded throughout by some really terrific contributions from very knowledgeable and creditable people. It has also been marked by the maiden speech of the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, making her debut today. She is a very welcome addition to the House. I hesitate to say that I look forward to her usefulness to the House, as it may be entirely for the Tory party; nevertheless, she will be an asset to the House and she is very welcome.

Among his many salient points, the noble Lord, Lord Lang, mentioned the issue of sacrifices. I endorse that sentiment. As a nation, we have come through two world wars. We suffered together, we sacrificed together. Although that may not be monetarily relevant, it is socially relevant. I certainly agree with that.

The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean, mentioned various reasons for the Treaty of Union in 1707, but he missed out one. One of the elements in the mix was the panic in the English Parliament that the Scottish Parliament still retained the right to recall the Jacobite James VIII.

Scotland’s place in the union is not just good for Scotland. As many noble Lords have said today, it benefits England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The union is a collective endeavour in which the four home nations are united in the pursuit of the common good. There is a desire by some to break up that relationship while claiming that none of the relationships that proceed from it will be affected. That is simply untrue. Indeed, what is proposed is a leap into the dark, leading to a complex process of negotiation and redefinition. It is simply fallacious to claim that Scotland can leave the union and that all that is positive that proceeds from it can be not simply preserved but somehow improved. Rather, the outcome of a yes vote in September will be the transformation of a relationship of partners into one of competitors—a transformation which will be bad for Scotland and bad for the remainder of the United Kingdom.

The SNP’s vision of an independent Scotland is a fantasy based on the claim that somehow everything will change while, simultaneously, nothing will change and consequently everything will be better. The relationship it envisages with what remains of the United Kingdom typifies that fantasy and how the reality would be damaging for both countries. By retaining sterling, Scotland’s monetary policy would still be determined by the Bank of England. That would effectively mean that Scotland’s borrowing and interest rates would be controlled by a foreign country. The statement by Mr Mark Carney, the Governor of the Bank of England, has surely finally scotched that fantasy of Alex Salmond.

This House’s Select Committee on Economic Affairs seriously doubted the possibility that members of the Bank of England’s Monetary Policy Committee could represent the interests of a separate country. Such a sterling union would mean a fundamental change for the worse. Monetary policy would in no way be determined in the interests of the Scottish people. This also exposes another central falsehood of the SNP’s position: its unique understanding of negotiation—that simply by declaring what you want, you will be given it. This was certainly exposed by, for instance, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cullen of Whitekirk, describing the damage to the research facilities available to Scotland. I will come back to Alex Salmond in a minute. I do not want to spend too much time on Alex Salmond. We should concentrate on the big examples.

By breaking the political union with the UK, the benefits of four nations working together will undoubtedly be lost, and Scotland’s relationship with the outside world completely redefined. The benefits brought by shared regulation and institutions—namely, a unified labour market, integrated infrastructure and a UK-wide business framework—would either be lost altogether or severely diminished. In the area of defence procurement, which was mentioned specifically by a number of noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord Browne of Ladyton, the damage done to Scotland and to the UK would be long term. I doubt we would be able to recover from it. An independent Scottish state would have lower domestic demand for defence goods and would no longer be eligible for UK defence contracts. The Clyde would never again be able to build complex warships or aircraft carriers for the Royal Navy.

Throughout the world, the United Kingdom is working to pursue the best interests of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. There are currently 267 embassies, high commissions and consulates in 154 countries. The idea of Scotland setting up a similar structure is laughable. My noble friend Lady Liddell mentioned Alex Salmond’s comment that we would remain best pals with England. Yet at the same time, he still propagates the idea that despite, in theory, being a member of the European Union, Scotland would bar English students from free tuition fees. Best pals? There is a touch of nastiness there, which we should always remember when we are dealing with Mr Salmond.

By leaving the union, Scotland would be damaging all the other partnerships that spring from it. The legal opinion is increasingly clear that the remainder of the UK would be regarded as the continuity state, inheriting all the international rights and obligations that currently befall the UK, while Scotland would be regarded as a new successor state. As many noble Lords have indicated, Scotland would have to reapply to join the European Union and NATO. Here, again, many in the yes campaign display a shaky understanding of the meaning of negotiation. The Scottish Government’s White Paper declares that an independent Scotland would join the EU, but not the eurozone or the Schengen area. However, this is at odds with the EU’s rules on membership. Any exemption would likely require unanimity among all the member states. At the moment, that seems extremely unlikely. The terms of membership are simply not within the Scottish Government’s gift. Similarly, the desire to become a member of NATO is at odds with SNP commitments regarding Trident. Trident is part of a NATO security umbrella. Any attempt to remove it from the Clyde would undoubtedly impact on Scotland’s relationship with other NATO countries and negatively affect its application for membership.

The union has served to advance Scotland throughout the world, and leaving it would take us into a world of uncertainty. If Scotland were to vote yes to the ending of three centuries of partnership, the remainder of the UK would face the same negative consequences. My noble friend Lady Quin indicated the dilemma of the feeling of closeness and camaraderie across the border with Scotland, and the potential damage to Northumberland and the border counties from having a separate Scotland with fiscal taxation and all the rest of it. Her powerful speech indicated the dangers of that.

A new competitiveness between the remainder of the United Kingdom and Scotland would be damaging to both. While the UK would be regarded as the continuity state in international law, its standing would be diminished—hence the apposite title of this debate in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lang. Serious questions would doubtless be asked as to why the UK continued to retain a place on the UN Security Council. The UK’s role and influence within the European Union would also be weakened. Furthermore, Scotland’s exit from the union would be a heavy blow against the concept of multinational states. It would prompt serious questions as to the involvement of Wales and Northern Ireland within the union, potentially reawakening terrible wounds within the latter, as was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Trimble. It would also have a profoundly negative impact on England’s identity and politics.

The implications for the UK of a Scottish yes vote in September 2014 are unappetising. It would represent a turning inwards, a diminished outlook and a turning away from a relationship of co-operation and partnership into a relationship of competitors. Outside the union, Scotland would find itself having to try to renegotiate its relationship with the UK and international bodies. If an independent Scotland managed to enter into a sterling union, it would represent a highly regressive development. Scots would find that their monetary policy was being entirely determined by a Bank of England no longer capable of adequately representing the Scots.

Scotland’s relationships with all its UK partners would also need redefining, and it would inherit none of the privileges and benefits that currently exist. The upcoming Scottish independence referendum allows us the opportunity to articulate once again the mutual benefits that come from the union and argue for the preservation of this collective endeavour. It allows the Scots the choice of whether to remain partners within the United Kingdom or become competitors outside it.

Once again, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lang of Monkton, for facilitating this debate. I also place on record our appreciation to the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay, and my noble friend Lord Bassam for agreeing to extend the time allowed for this important debate, which shows the House of Lords at its very best. In my opinion, it shows our relevance to a UK-wide debate. I would like to think that this debate and the powerful speeches here today mark the start of the campaign to keep Scotland within the United Kingdom.

16:57

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness) (LD)]

My Lords, in sharing the view of the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, I can safely say that we have had an excellent debate here today, which has benefited from having extra time. I particularly thank my noble friend Lord Lang of Monkton for introducing the debate with a first-class speech which, given that the contributions of all the speakers have emphasised how wide-ranging the subject is and how there is so much to be said, not only captured the breadth of the arguments but did so with considerable focus as well. He set our debate off absolutely on the right tone by raising a number of important issues.

At the outset, too, I congratulate my noble friend Lady Goldie on her maiden speech. She and I were first elected together to the Scottish Parliament when it was established in 1999, along with other noble Lords who are in the Chamber such as the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, and my noble friend Lord Steel. We did parry on occasions. I think that I appeared before her a number of times on the justice committee, where she established a reputation not just for competence—that would understate it—but for being a formidable parliamentarian. Indeed, when she announced that she was standing down from the leadership of the Scottish Conservative Party, one newspaper commentary that I have found said:

“A primary function of a party leader is to lead in the eyes of the voters who have not supported it. Annabel Goldie was good at that—open, inclusive, positive and giving as good as she got, the people understood her—trusted her”.

I think that is a very fair summation of the contribution she has made to Scottish political and civic life. I know that she continues to represent her constituents in the Scottish Parliament, but we all look forward to the contributions that she will make to our debates in this Chamber.

One of the features of this debate has been that Members who have taken part have come from right across the United Kingdom: from Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England. I cannot answer every point that has been raised because there have been so many, but every speech made a valuable contribution to the debate.

I was having the same thought as my noble friend Lord Cormack, who said that he hopes this debate will be read in Scotland. I was thinking that so often in this debate we hear people say that we do not have enough facts. I think the Hansard of this debate will give a considerable number of facts and emphasise many areas. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, spoke about the complexities that are involved, and we heard important contributions from noble Lords who have considerable expertise in their own fields of medicine, research, sport, law and defence. Excellent contributions were made that set out some of the facts, consequences and complexity.

My noble friend Lord Caithness asked whether independence is for ever, and the noble Lord, Lord Maxton, answered that question. Yes, people can see from this debate that independence is for ever. As the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, said, there is no going back. It will be a decisive result, and if people vote yes for independence, that is that.

There is one very small matter. I am not saying it is a fact that will change the outcome of the referendum, but the information was passed to me, so I thought I should share it with your Lordships. My noble friend Lord Steel and the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, referred to the First Minister’s visit to the Ryder Cup and the expenditure of £54,000. I have been informed that when he was First Minister the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, and one member of staff attended the Ryder Cup outside Dublin at the cost of £131.20. Scotland got better value from the noble Lord.

Features of the debate have been the sense of heritage and the sense of family. My noble friend Lord Forsyth gave us a very good perspective on heritage. He said we are one nation forged over the centuries. Other noble Lords who talked about history included my noble friend Lord Cavendish of Furness and the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, but noble Lords also talked about the idea of family and, sadly, noble Lords also talked in terms of a family that faces possible divorce, all the trauma that goes along with that and how we want to try to avoid it. That emphasised that the people who belong on this island not only have a shared heritage but have so much in terms of shared family. When my noble friend Lord Caithness was describing his bloodline, I thought that he was the absolute embodiment of Britishness, with all the various parts of the United Kingdom from which he can claim ancestry.

Another feature was the passion that the noble Lord, Lord Soley, mentioned. Noble Lords said how important it is to them that we remain part of a United Kingdom. Some 800,000 people born in Scotland now live in other parts of the United Kingdom and about 500,000 people born in England, Wales and Northern Ireland now live in Scotland. One speech mentioned the 30,000 people who travel in and out of Scotland each day to work. My noble friend Lord Moynihan talked about the Olympic family and how proud we all felt at the success of the British Olympic team in 2012. When he was speaking, I was reminded of the point made by my noble friend Lord Cavendish: when you split a £50 note, each part is not worth £25. Equally, one could say that if you had split the boat of Katherine Grainger and Anna Watkins, who won the double sculls, neither of them would have been in a gold-medal position. That emphasises how much we achieve when working together. We are truly greater than the sum of our parts.

I recognise that what we are debating today has implications for other parts of the United Kingdom and for our parliamentary arrangements. My noble friend Lord Trimble talked about its impact in Northern Ireland. I will perhaps say later that if you try to disintegrate public bodies and institutions that have been brought together and have evolved over a long period, it has costs, even for the part of the United Kingdom that would not have opted to lose Scotland. I also take the point of the noble Lord, Lord Gordon, that whatever the outcome on 18 September, even if it is a no vote, there may well be relationships that have to be worked at to bring about some harmony again, so that we can continue to go forward as a truly United Kingdom.

However the legal position is that, without Scotland, the United Kingdom would continue, albeit, I fear, as has been said by a number of your Lordships—my noble friends Lord Lang, Lord MacGregor and Lord Lamont of Lerwick, and the noble Lord, Lord Parekh—as a diminished United Kingdom. It would be a United Kingdom from which we had lost something very valuable. We have had very clear legal opinion, referred to by my noble friend Lord Crickhowell, from Professors Crawford and Boyle, that England, Wales and Northern Ireland would be a continuing state. Internationally, the continuing United Kingdom would retain its membership of organisations and bilateral treaties. Domestically, each one of the United Kingdom’s public bodies and institutions would continue to function.

That cannot be said of an independent Scotland. An independent Scotland would be an entirely new state. As the noble Lord, Lord Robertson, said, it would be a separate state. I sometimes wonder why a party that wants independence objects to the idea that it might be a new state; I thought that was the whole point of what they were trying to do. Scotland’s future would be based on a series of protracted negotiations with different states and organisations, as well as other parts of the United Kingdom. Which currency would Scotland use? How would Scotland join the European Union, as referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr? Would it have to join the euro or Schengen? These are questions that the Scottish Government have singularly failed to answer. They would require detailed negotiations to pull out of a union of which Scotland has been an integral part for more than 300 years and to establish a new set of international relationships.

However, it is important to stress the positive. As the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, said, we have at the moment the best of both worlds. We have a system of devolution that delivers for Scotland. Where it makes sense, key decisions of state are reserved to the United Kingdom and its Parliament to take on behalf of all citizens across the United Kingdom. Equally important decisions are made by the Scottish Parliament in Scotland on issues including education, healthcare and policing. The noble Lords, Lord Robertson and Lord McConnell, and my noble friend Lord Purvis, have indicated that devolution is working. I take the point made by my noble friend Lord Lang in his introductory speech, that somewhere we seem to have lost sight of the Scotland Act 2012. The point is that the position is not static. There is no such thing as the status quo because, in 2015, there will be taxation powers on landfill tax and land-based stamp duty; and in 2016 there will be an important development on the 10p rate of income tax. It is not standing still; since day one it has evolved and developed. That 2012 legislation substantially increases the Scottish Parliament’s power and was proceeded upon on the basis of evidence, consensus and consideration.

At the start of 2013, the United Kingdom Government said that we would set out the facts about Scotland’s place in the United Kingdom: its contributions and the benefits we receive as a result. We have done so. The Scotland analysis papers, details of which I circulated to noble Lords last week, have set out in great detail important issues such as currency, research, defence and, most recently, borders and citizenship. They make a positive case for Scotland being part of the United Kingdom. I do not believe that the Scottish Government have in any way challenged this analysis. Their White Paper last November was their opportunity to make their case. It is widely recognised that they distinctly failed to do so. None of the key issues such as currency, EU membership and, crucially, the terms of EU membership and economic stability, will go away—but none of them was adequately addressed. It was an exercise in assertion and wishful thinking. My noble friend Lord Lang said that it used its length to hide its emptiness. I noted that, in the passage he quoted, my noble friend Lord Steel talked about the principle of continuing efficiency. I have looked that up on Google, and cannot find that principle enunciated anywhere else. It is asserted, and we are all supposed to salute it.

These issues matter because they affect people’s everyday lives—jobs, mortgages and the cost of the food we buy in the supermarkets. This is not an esoteric constitutional debate. It is not a question of nationalist sentiment. It matters to people and their day-to-day lives.

I will pick up on some specific points made by noble Lords. A number of your Lordships made particular reference to the speech the Governor of the Bank of England made yesterday in Edinburgh. He highlighted the principal difficulties of entering a currency union: the loss of national sovereignty, the practical risks of financial instability and having to provide fiscal support to bail out another country. As the Chancellor has previously said, the current arrangement of a full, monetary, fiscal and political union brings economic benefits to all parts of the United Kingdom. That is why we have seen the Chancellor, my right honourable friend the Chief Secretary, former Chancellors of the Exchequer, the shadow Chancellor and the First Minister of Wales—and in this debate the noble Lord, Lord Empey, from Northern Ireland and my noble friend Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, from Wales—say that in the event of independence, a currency union is highly unlikely to be agreed, and that in those circumstances the Scottish Government need a plan B.

Currency unions do not work without close political and fiscal integration; surely we have learnt that lesson from the euro if nothing else. Scottish independence would create the opposite. Indeed, the objective is to have disintegration. The Scottish Government maintain that they can run an economy differently and better, but that would lead to fuller divergence. To Nicola Sturgeon and others, who claim that,

“the pound is as much Scotland’s as it is the rest of the UK’s”,

let us be clear that a vote to leave the United Kingdom is a vote to leave its institutions, such as the Bank of England, and to leave the UK pound. That is part of the choice that people in Scotland are being asked to make on 18 September.

My noble friends Lord Lamont of Lerwick and Lord Shipley also mentioned the debt issue. The Treasury has set out clearly that the continuing UK Government will in all circumstances honour the contractual terms of debt issued by the UK. We did so because we thought it was responsible to underpin the UK’s credibility with the international financial markets. As my noble friend Lord Shipley indicated, an independent Scotland would be likely to face higher debt interest payments than the rest of the UK, as the National Institute of Economic and Social Research has shown, and would have to rely on a narrower tax base to support its public services and ageing population.

A number of noble Lords who contributed to the debate talked about the European Union. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, described, from his vast experience, a potential scenario as to how we might get from A to B, which I will be interested to reread. It would not be appropriate to make any commitments or comments on it except that it takes a while to get one’s mind around the thought that my right honourable friend Mr David Cameron might represent Alex Salmond at the EU Council table. I would be interested to know what the First Minister of Scotland thinks about that. However, the point the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, made was about the complexity of that situation and of the terms of membership. The noble Lord explained why the rebate could not just be split up and a bit allocated to Scotland. There is also the issue of Schengen and the currency. When the Scottish Government talk about the common travel areas as their preferred position on Schengen, that would clearly be a matter for negotiation. They also have to make up their mind. They cannot claim on the one hand that they want a radically different immigration policy from the rest of the United Kingdom, and on the other still maintain that they can have a common travel area. The two do not go hand in hand. They have to square with the Scottish people about which it will be.

The question of the disintegration of the United Kingdom came through in a number of speeches. We are talking about institutions and public bodies that have developed over many years—over generations—and which were not established for the purpose of being broken up. Therefore, when you start to try to unravel them, there are a lot of difficult problems. The noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, mentioned the General Medical Council and all the issues that would flow from that. I think that many of the regulatory bodies in the health service have appeals that go to the Privy Council. The Scottish Government may say, “We can keep it”, but I am not sure that they have thought it through, as they sometimes dismiss the Privy Council as a body to which they would ever wish to appeal.

There are also the issues of the coming together of the higher education research councils and the integration of defence. As my noble friend Lord Selkirk of Douglas said, you cannot just pluck out assets and personnel from a highly integrated armed services.

The noble Lord, Lord Brennan, also underlined the importance of and some of the difficulties with the number of treaties and negotiations that would have to take place. It is worth reminding the House that, in the so-called velvet divorce between the Czech Republic and Slovakia, there were 31 overarching treaties and around 2,000 sub-agreements between the two countries. While it is referred to as the velvet divorce, many important issues were unresolved for a number of years. So there is a whole host of issues that would have to be dealt with.

There is the fact that our trade is so bound up together. Scotland’s manufacturing receives so much of its raw materials from England. In one of our Scottish analysis papers, we show the border effect. When you put up a barrier, albeit between countries that have a long history together and share a common language, there is a border effect, as was shown in the difference in trade between two provinces of Canada and between Canada and the United States. Public bodies such as the BBC, the DVLA, the National Lottery and the Heritage Lottery Fund have all been established on a UK basis. You only need to start thinking of some of the implications. We will publish the next Scottish analysis paper in the series in which we will look at some of those institutions. It is clear that unpicking them is very difficult indeed. To put it into some kind of context, every Administration that I can remember have had private and public grief about IT systems. If you think about having to create new IT systems across the board for so many things, it underlines the difficulties.

The noble Lord, Lord Nickson, expressed a concern that is part of the so-called border effect. You would have difficulties at the outset but, over time, there would be further divergence. That, too, would mean that we would lose much of the advantage that we have as part of the United Kingdom.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, talked of the importance of the legal system and the fact that, in civil matters, the House of Lords and now the Supreme Court has been the final appeal court. So many of these issues deal with commercial legal matters, in which it has been important to have consistency of interpretation north and south of the border. I remember—no doubt the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, will remember, too—that when there was a proposal to move from the House of Lords to the Supreme Court, when we were in coalition government together, we had to think about what should happen and whether Scotland should continue to seek to take civil cases to the Supreme Court. The representations we got from business were about the importance of having that Supreme Court to give consistency of interpretation across the United Kingdom. That was very important indeed.

The noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, referred to the importance of the defence industry in Scotland. A number of those who have contributed have talked about the defence footprint in Scotland, and the number of armed and civilian personnel related to defence. When you look at how much is spent on defence, it is not that Scotland’s defence is a tenth of the total; the entire expenditure on defence in the United Kingdom goes to ensure the security of us all. You cannot start to disintegrate it—it matters to us all. That was particularly true of the case mentioned by my noble friend Lady Neville-Jones, about our security being underpinned by a strong network of international alliances and relationships and how much Scotland benefits from the millions of pounds of investment in the United Kingdom’s cybersecurity.

On the Armed Forces, a point made by my noble friend Lord Selkirk was that you cannot just tell people that they have to leave and give up their careers in the British Army to go and join the Scottish Army—or, for that matter, in the Royal Navy or the Royal Air Force. There are two sides to that. It has been very ill thought-out in terms of what the Scottish Government have proposed, but the positive side is that we do very well as a United Kingdom, with Scotland as part of it, by having our defence secured on that UK-wide basis.

Before moving on to further devolution, the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, mentioned contingency planning. He knows that the Government have consistently made the point that it would be wrong to start contingency planning ahead of any vote, for the very good reason that we are the Government of the whole United Kingdom. If Ministers within government start splitting up and arguing against each other, that is when you start to unpick the fabric of the United Kingdom.

The noble Lords, Lord Sutherland, Lord Lyell and Lord Kakkar, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cullen, also mentioned the importance of research. I do not need to elaborate on what they said about the value of having a United Kingdom in that regard.

Many of your Lordships talked about further devolution, further constitutional change and the opportunity for constitutional renewal. I will not list everyone who made that point but I think there was an emerging consensus that this is something we need to look at in the light of a no vote. One of the things that came through was that devolution does not stop at Cardiff, Edinburgh or Belfast; there is an important issue about it being taken down to local government as well. The First Minister of Wales raised with the Prime Minister the idea of a constitutional convention. The Prime Minister indicated that there would need to be an open, involved and comprehensive conversation about the kind of union we want to see, and that, 15 years after the process of devolution started, we should consider the best way to go about doing so. However, he went on to say that he believed a better time to do that would be once the referendum debate had come to a conclusion as we must first focus on the case of keeping Scotland in the union.

The noble Lord, Lord Parekh, made important points about trying not to be negative. I have tried to show that there is a positive side to arguments that might otherwise be seen as being negative. However, it is also important that those who are arguing for such a fundamental change to the status quo should face and answer some of the key issues that are put to them. I do not believe that is being negative.

We have a proud tradition. To pick up some of the points that have been made, we have walked in freedom under the law and have taken democratic government to many parts of the world. This country led the way in the abolition of slavery. We established a National Health Service and were leaders in public service broadcasting. We have achieved so many things together. I believe that that, together with economic integration, is a very positive argument to put forward.

My noble friend Lady Goldie said that she could be Scottish and she could be British and proud of both. We have heard contributions from noble Lords who are Welsh but feel very British too, from those who are Northern Irish English but feel very British too, and from people from other parts who feel that way too. The noble Baroness, Lady Quin, made an important point about people coming to the United Kingdom—not to Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or England but to the United Kingdom. It is important that we retain the integrity of the United Kingdom. It is not something to give up lightly. I hope that on 18 September, people in Scotland will vote to remain part of our United Kingdom. I believe that, far from being negative, a no vote is probably the most positive thing that can happen to the United Kingdom later this year.

17:22

[Lord Lang of Monkton]

My Lords, happily it is not my task to sum up the large number of fascinating speeches that we have heard today. That was the task of my noble and learned friend Lord Wallace of Tankerness, and he has just done that brilliantly. His courtesy and attention to detail was a masterly example of how it should be done. I thank him and the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, for sitting throughout our debate and listening very closely to what has been discussed.

In all the years I have spent in this House, I cannot remember a debate that was so engrossing from beginning to end, nor can I remember such a consistently high standard of speeches throughout. Indeed, it is hard to think of a more profoundly important subject than the one we have debated today—the survival of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

I congratulate my noble friend Lady Goldie of Bishopton on a superb maiden speech which was very well judged and welcomed by many here today. I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, that she should keep submitting her name to the ballot. There is room for more debates between now and 18 September. Many aspects of this debate, although touched on today, could be expanded in future debates, and I very much hope that they will be.

The Scottish National Party defies the relevance, or even the existence, of this House—it ignores it—but, happily, the British public do not. I very much hope that what has been said today will reach out to a wider public. For me this has been an amazing debate. We have had six former Secretaries of State taking part, five from Scotland and one from Wales; one Scottish former Chancellor of the Exchequer; one Scottish former Chief Secretary to the Treasury; two very distinguished Scottish judges; a chancellor and a vice-chancellor of two great Scottish universities; a clutch of former First Ministers, a Presiding Officer and current and former Members of all the devolved Administrations of the United Kingdom, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland; one Scottish former ambassador to the European Union and head of the Foreign Office; one former Secretary-General of NATO; and one former head of the British Olympic Association. We have had more than 40 Lords a-leaping, and I dare say that if we had a pear tree in the Chamber there might be a partridge in it—and it would be singing a unionist song.

More importantly, we have had a lot of brilliant and highly articulate voices from all parts of the United Kingdom, and that underlines what the debate is about and the value that we all attach to the United Kingdom. I hope that the debate has helped to advance that cause. My privilege has simply been to act as convener for the event, and I thank all noble Lords who have taken part. I hope that we have done something to restore to the rest of the United Kingdom a strong conviction of the value of our United Kingdom.

Motion agreed.

Immigration Bill

Thursday 30th January 2014 Lords Chamber

First Reading

17:25

The Bill was brought from the Commons, read a first time and ordered to be printed.

Small and Medium-sized Businesses: Access to Finance

Thursday 30th January 2014 Lords Chamber

Question for Short Debate

17:26

Asked by

[Lord Berkeley]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to improve access to finance to small and medium-sized businesses.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, it gives me great pleasure to introduce this short debate on improving access to finance for small and medium-sized enterprises. There has been much concern among the SME fraternity about their business health, but I detect little evidence of success in the government policies in that direction so far. I think they feel hard done by by this Government. However, as the National Audit Office said in a recent report:

“SMEs play an important role in job creation. Three-quarters of all new jobs in the UK are created by SMEs”.

That is an amazing figure, really. The report continues:

“It is therefore important that SMEs with potential are able to obtain the finance they need so that they can grow”.

Any trawl of the Government’s website, and of the BIS page in particular, will show the enormous range of support that the Government offer. The Enterprise Minister, Matthew Hancock, set out the Government’s offer to SMEs in December. Many people find the list a bit confusing. Behind all that, the message that the SMEs give is that the biggest problem is a lack of finance. It may not be there and it may be very expensive. Equally importantly, they may need even more finance than they would otherwise because government departments, large companies and others are taking so long to pay their bills that more working capital is required just to keep the business going. I shall speak a bit more about that later.

It is good for the Government to say that they are doing so much, but the experience in the field is rather different. I have a couple of examples. Five or 10 years ago a good friend of mine developed a restaurant in London that is doing extremely well, and has extended it to three or four branches. I saw him yesterday and he said, “I want to expand further, not just in London but to some of the regions—Manchester, and Bristol eventually”. He has a very good track record and is comparatively risk-free, but he found that he could not get the kind of finance that he might have been able to five years ago, and has had to beg round to get enough just to take things further. This can be seen as just a London issue, but it is not—he wants to go to Manchester and other places where jobs are surely important.

Then there is the infamous case of the Royal Bank of Scotland, which was extensively written about by the Sunday Times in the autumn. A gentleman called John Morris, who is not an SME but sadly received the SME treatment, was trying to do up a house into luxury apartments and, towards the end, when he needed £2.5 million to sort out the snagging—there must have been a lot of snagging in that building, but there we are—the Royal Bank of Scotland pulled out at the last minute, causing his cheques to bounce. I will not repeat the long story, but effectively they put him into liquidation, took the building into their property arm and used it. The inference is that they would then develop and sell it and make a lot of money and that the poor man would be left with nothing. He now seeks to sue RBS over claims that the assets were unfairly seized by the property company.

I understand that the Business Secretary, Vince Cable, has called on City watchdogs to examine this very serious allegation. Lawrence Tomlinson, the multimillionaire enterprise tsar, has published a report. What he has said is quite clear. I have a summary of his findings, which show that the,

“RBS is engineering a business into default in order to move the business out of local management and into their turnaround division … This then generates revenue for the bank through fees, increased margins and the purchase of devalued assets by their property division”.

His conclusion is:

“Without competition in the banking sector, these scandals will continue to come to light and ever more business will be hurt in the process”.

I certainly agree with that. The Government need to deal with this issue of size, lack of competition and a certain degree of arrogance, especially as they own RBS.

There is another issue that I touched on earlier. It is the question of finance needed for late payments by big companies. This was debated in the debate to which I contributed on 24 May 2012. That is some time ago. We had a lot of discussion about big companies like National Grid, which seems to have a late payment policy, and even then it does not comply with it. Some 34% of suppliers had to wait 91 days to be paid, according to Dun & Bradstreet. That process seems to be carrying on now.

I found the Question this afternoon on NHS Property Services to be interesting. This is a wonderful example of late payment. NHS Property Services is in trouble because the hospitals and other buildings that sit on its property were late in paying rent. So part of the NHS is not complying with, presumably, its own procurement procedure and is putting another part of the NHS into financial trouble. If the NHS cannot pay itself on time, what hope does anyone else have? I hope that the Minister will make some comment on this.

I am pleased that 18 months—or perhaps it is two and a half years; I cannot count—after this was raised, the Prime Minister has announced a consultation. The headline of an article from 16 October 2013 on the announcement says that, “Government could launch fines for late payment”. The article also mentions,

“a YouGov report suggesting that some 85 per cent of small businesses have endured late payment over the last two years”.

That is a big percentage. The article goes on to say:

“Outstanding payments to SMEs are now thought to exceed £30 billion, and the average business waits 38 days for payment”.

It is not clear to me what if anything the Government are doing about that. Perhaps the Minister can tell me where that has got to. It is a big problem, so how will this be enforced?

There has been a lot paper but a lack of finance, and late payments are causing a lot of problems. In its report of November 2013, Improving Access to Finance for Small and Medium-sized Enterprises, the National Audit Office is critical of the Treasury and the banks. It basically says that the Treasury needs to make things simpler and easier to understand, and urges the business bank to be more flexible and,

“target SMEs’ lack of awareness”.

I do not know whether that is going to happen. It may be that the Minister will tell us a bit about the business bank, but it is not going to directly lend or invest in businesses. What is it going to do? Will it actually help small businesses? I do not know. According to the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee, the answer is basically that the bank will not do very much. The committee’s report recommends:

“The departments should use the establishment of the British Business Bank to start managing the various schemes as a coherent programme”.

There is a lot more there.

I agree with Ed Miliband, the leader of the Labour Party, who says that this problem has been going on for a long time. There is too much power concentrated in too few hands in the banking industry. Four banks control 85% of small business lending. They are not lending, give poor customer service and are risk averse. I support his proposals for a Green Investment Bank and a new British business investment bank, provided that it lends.

In conclusion, small businesses need a climate in which to flourish, which they do not have at the moment. They need confidence. Who is winning? The big boys are winning at the moment. Small businesses need long-term stability and the debate about Europe is not helping. It certainly will not help small businesses. I could go on but we are having a debate about Europe tomorrow. I am much looking forward to the contributions from other speakers, who are much more expert than I am, and to the Minister’s comments.

[Earl Attlee (Con)]

My Lords, I should point out that this is a topical QSD and is limited to 60 minutes, even though it is last business, as provided for in the Standing Orders. Noble Lords have four minutes, and when the clock shows four minutes, they will be into their fifth minute.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, it says on today’s lists that the debate is time limited to 90 minutes.

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, that is why I came to the Dispatch Box. There is a slight error on the list. The timings are correct but the overall time suggested is not correct.

17:38

[Lord Sheikh (Con)]

My Lords, I should like to thank the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for introducing this debate on an important subject. I express an interest in this debate as the chairman of an insurance organisation that helps smaller organisations to place their insurance covers.

I have always supported the cause of SMEs. I echo the words of the Prime Minister earlier this week when he said that SMEs are key to Britain’s economic recovery and make a great contribution with their innovation, hard work and determination. They make up around 99% of all private sector businesses and provide nearly 60% of private sector employment. During this Parliament, a number of measures have been brought forward to help SMEs grow. Among them are the cutting of £l billion-worth of red tape and the extension of small business rate relief. The Government have also worked to make Britain’s tax system more competitive, with corporation tax being the lowest in the G7 and a £2,000 tax cut on national insurance contributions coming in from April 2014.

The problem that SMEs have in accessing finance has dominated debate in recent years, but some important steps have been taken. The £1 billion British Business Bank aims to increase the supply of capital to SMEs and introduce more competition to the banking sector. In addition, businesses that would otherwise lack adequate security for a loan are being helped through the enterprise finance guarantee.

It is also important to remember that banks are encouraged to lend to SMEs. The Government hope to do this by allowing banks to borrow from the Bank of England at cheaper than market rates through the Funding for Lending scheme. More also needs to be done to allow more people to start their own businesses. The Start Up Loans initiative was created to help people to get their businesses off the ground. As someone who promotes Islamic finance, I was very pleased with the recent announcement by the Prime Minister that start-up loans will also be available on Islamic principles. However, we are in a competitive world and there is always more that can be done.

Despite multiple support schemes for small firms, research has suggested that unfortunately there has been limited success. The Federation of Small Businesses has said that current business support is congested and confusing. Many SMEs still struggle to access the finance they need, and recently overall lending to SMEs has fallen. I ask the Government for an explanation of what is being done to ensure that the right support is targeted at the right businesses.

I also believe that more should be done to make these schemes act as a coherent programme rather than a collection of separate initiatives. I ask my noble friend the Minister what, if anything, is being done to this effect. We also need to get more of the UK’s large businesses to play a supporting role for SMEs. Often big businesses do not pay small suppliers promptly. Small firms suffer cash-flow problems because work is not paid for in the agreed time, and they spend valuable time chasing payments.

As someone who has promoted the undertaking or more overseas business, I believe that all exporters, no matter how small, should be able to access high-quality government support. In conclusion, the Prime Minister has said that we are in a global race, and more SMEs should build overseas connections and be involved in enhanced trade.

17:42

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

My Lords, in the brief time available to me, I should like to indulge the House with a parable based on a true story. When I studied the Industrial Revolution at university, I always associated a man called Henry Cort, the inventor of Cort’s puddling process in iron-making, with Abraham Darby, Ironbridge and the northern industrial areas. When I came to live near Portsmouth, I discovered that he was a supplier to the Navy, and, having patented his process, he built a new iron mill at Fontley, four miles from where I live. He needed funds for his new foundry and he borrowed £30,000—worth over £2 million now. He got the funds from Adam Jellicoe, chief clerk of the pay board of the Royal Navy, who secured the money on the patents registered by Cort.

One might wonder how the chief clerk of the pay board of the Royal Navy could afford such a vast deal. He had, of course, a ready source of funds and—you guessed it—he was the Robert Maxwell embezzler of his time. The money had come from the Navy payroll. Poor Mr Cort. The Navy took his patents, and although 8,200 puddling furnaces were built by 1820, Mr Cort saw no financial benefit from his innovation. When the Navy purchases fell back, his foundry bankrupted him. He died in dire straits and is buried in Hampstead.

The lessons of that story for small businesses are as important today as they were then. First, sources of secure funding are absolutely essential for the establishment and growth of small businesses. Secondly, just as important is the guidance of mentors and advisers to innovators if an idea is to reach its commercial potential. Thirdly, funds for SMEs have to be sourced locally by those familiar with local businesses who lend and by small businesses which do not have the time or resources to go further afield. Fourthly, the public sector has a role. The public sector rarely wins prizes for business innovation but it can be a valuable partner to small businesses. It is a purchaser of goods. It should be committed and forced to pay its bills on time but it also can provide seed-corn funding to reduce risk and leverage other sources of funds.

Sadly, our banking system has delocalised just when localism was most needed. The Government have spawned an array of new funding schemes, including the business bank and the green bank, which are all great initiatives. But where does an SME go when it needs to get help and easy access to funds?

Reverting to my local area, we must not underestimate the role of local economic partnerships in providing a hub of activity, advice and funding for SMEs. My local LEP, the Solent LEP, has brought together Portsmouth and Southampton, which is a huge achievement in itself. It is backed by local authorities, chambers of commerce, the universities and local businesses, both big and small. It is now using the regional growth funds to encourage new business development linked closely to job creation.

Bridging the Gap is one of the initiatives to help businesses get going and expand to create specific jobs. The idea came from one of our local MPs, Caroline Dinenage, and it has the support of the local newspapers, the Portsmouth News and the Southern Daily Echo in Southampton, which are keen to have good news stories. They publicise the initiative, which it is hoped will ensure that local businesses can get initial funding and then leverage that with other funding. LEPs are at an early stage but the aim should be for them to become hubs for local business development and job creation, with local authorities, universities and local businessmen driving the development of business and job growth.

17:47

[Lord Bilimoria (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for bringing this debate before the House at this crucial time for our economy, particularly with regard to SMEs. I have started a business from scratch. There were two of us and we were even smaller than an “S”; then we were an “S”; then we became an “M”; and now I have a joint venture with a large multi-billion global company. I have been there and done it, and seen how difficult it is to raise finance as a growing business. SMEs are the engine of our economy and they need funding to grow.

Confidence is beginning to return to business and businesses want to grow and invest but there is difficulty in raising money. I do not want to banker bash but a number of issues need to be raised, including poor banking lending practices, punitive charges, interest rates, difficult guarantees, the exclusion of certain loans from approval and the changing relationship with banks. In the early days when I started in business, senior bank managers had experience. Now there is a lack of experienced managers. Bank managers do not have the authority to lend more than £50,000 in many cases. I know that many SMEs struggle to raise finance.

Bank managers are terrified of taking the risk. They weed out applications that they think are doubtful. The lack of lending means that businesses cannot grow, innovation suffers, our exports suffer and we become uncompetitive as a country. I hope that the business bank will help the situation. Can the Minister advise us when the business bank will come into operation and action? Awareness continues to be an issue. The Government have a number of schemes but, from what I have seen, just over 50% of businesses know about it. However, that means that more than 40% of businesses do not know about all the support that is available. What are the Government going to do about that?

There are horrible stories about banks which continue to bully SMEs through either restrictive covenants or excessive charges. They find excuses to call in loans, to take security or to break covenants. This is terrifying for a business. Often you can see them extracting extra interest charges, invoking covenants in the original facility letters or instructing new valuations with costs to be met by the borrower. When it comes out lower, the bank may increase the margin, call in the loan or ask for capital repayments. This is distressing for businesses which quite often are just abiding by making payments. I know of personal examples of businesses that have been bullied and have had to pay up to £100,000 worth of excessive legal fees and valuation fees when they have been making their payments and, in the end, they were absolutely fine. Extortionate fees are still being charged and in many cases high street lawyers are conducting the cases. Will the Minister take this up with the banks to make sure that excessive legal fees are not charged by banks?

Will the Minister meet the CEOs and directors of the banks to address all these issues—the valuations, the legal fees, the aggressive attitude and the lack of funding—so that we can have a brighter way forward? Will he also update us on all the government and BIS-led initiatives that exist of access-to-finance schemes—loan guarantees to SMEs, loans for start-ups, the EIS scheme, the Enterprise Finance Guarantee, the Seed Enterprise Investment Scheme. There are so many schemes. Will the Minister tell us what is going on with these schemes? There are also growth accelerators. There are a plethora of them. How effective are they and are they succeeding?

The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, mentioned the Tomlinson report. It was reported in the Telegraph by Louise Armitstead that more than 1,000 companies have come forward with allegations of morally wrong treatment at the hands of the Royal Bank of Scotland’s restructuring division. Lawrence Tomlinson had told the Treasury Select Committee that his “dossier” of cases against RBS’s global restructuring group has “continued to grow” since he published the report. He claimed that RBS was “killing off” small businesses for its own profit. This person is the entrepreneur in residence at BIS and he recommended that RBS and the Lloyds Banking Group be divided into three separate banks. Does the Minister agree that that is the correct course of action? Tomlinson argued that despite the financial crisis, British banks are still too big to fail and too big to regulate. He said that without radical action there would be,

“nothing to stop 2018 becoming another 2008”.

17:51

[Lord Leigh of Hurley (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for introducing this important debate. I speak as someone who has spent the past 30 years advising SMEs on corporate finance matters and I draw noble Lords’ attention to my entry in the register of interests which discloses that I am the senior partner of Cavendish Corporate Finance. My focus has been on advising SMEs on their exit strategies, but that has included helping them to raise finance.

In my opinion, this country has a superb track record of encouraging entrepreneurs to start businesses and grow them, and I was personally encouraged by the pro-business environment of the late 1980s under the previous Conservative Government to start my own business. My partner and I each invested £10,000 with a commitment to each other not to draw a salary for a year because we knew that no bank would back us. Accordingly, I have always believed that it is not governments who create jobs but businesses like mine.

Life has moved on since those days and there is increasing recognition that help and assistance has to be given to SMEs, which are the backbone of the British economy, as the noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, said, and more importantly will be the engine of growth. It is clear that the Government are doing an excellent job in facilitating the proliferation and growth of SMEs, unlike the traditional banks, as the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, said, whose central control of decision-making, depriving local managers of important decisions, and in some instances disgraceful behaviour, should be investigated by the Minister.

Under the coalition agreement, however, the start-up loans scheme has been a tremendous success with a staggering 10,000 start-up loans being celebrated late last year, as noted in this House. Encouragingly, the number of private sector businesses in the UK has increased to 4.8 million at the start of 2012, which is a record. The Government have encouraged SME entrepreneurs in a variety of ways. More than 3,000 regulations, including those relating to employment, health and safety and the environment, have been identified for scrapping or improvement through the red tape initiative and businesses are now allowed much more flexibility when downsizing.

The one area that does need attention is financing. I remember as a university economics student in the 1970s studying the equity gap, which some may remember was defined in the Wilson report. At that time, a huge problem was financing equity investment into SMEs. I was particularly pleased to see the EIS and SEIS schemes, which have enabled entrepreneurs to raise seed capital from friends and family, helping them to make the big decision to start up.

I warmly welcome the success of the business growth fund, which I see being extremely active in the marketplace carrying out equity investments in businesses. I am keen to see the implementation of the business bank, which should have some £4 billion and will match Germany’s KfW, which has done so much to help the German Mittelstand with much greater numbers. I note the concern of the House of Commons Public Accounts Committee that the main challenge is not new initiatives but, as the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, indicated, making sure that SMEs are aware of the plethora of financial help and assistance now available to them. This is the right direction of travel. There is currently a huge range of financial assistance being offered by this Government to SMEs—the problem is communicating that to entrepreneurs.

Finally, I wish to raise a point of concern about peer-to-peer lending—this is not meant to refer to debts between Members of the House of Lords but to crowd funding. Although hailed as the new disruptive technology to challenge the banking industry, and thus welcome, I have some concerns about it and am pleased to note that from April 2014 the industry will be regulated by the FCA. It is still currently a tiny industry, but I wish to express concern at its huge rate of growth. There needs to be much more examination of how the money is lent and the experience of management in making loans and spreading risks for lenders. Peer-to-peer lending should provide a further excellent opportunity for access to finance for SMEs. However, we need to be prepared for failures ahead, as history shows that the current tremendous economic growth, created by coalition policies, will lead to businesses overtrading and could lead to defaults on such borrowing.

17:56

[Viscount Hanworth (Lab)]

My Lords, small and medium-sized enterprises, SMEs, depend mainly on commercial banks to provide finance via loans, overdrafts and credit cards. According to the evidence from a National Audit Office report, lending to SMEs was negative in almost every month from June 2011 to August 2013, which is to say that, during the period, adequate finance was not forthcoming from the banks. We are told that 37% of SMEs use no external finance. More of them use credit cards or overdrafts than loans. Loan rejection rates in the UK are around twice those of France and Germany and, of those SMEs whose loan applications are rejected, 70% can find no alternative sources of finance.

The present dearth of financial support is undoubtedly a consequence of the need of our large banks to reduce their leverage—they have been endeavouring to improve their reserve ratios by limiting their lending. The manner in which they are doing this has caused acute distress among many small enterprises. A recent edition of the BBC’s “File on Four” radio programme, “Default by Design?”, bore witness to this. The programme focused its attention on the practices of RBS, the Royal Bank of Scotland, 80% of which has been in public ownership since it was rescued from insolvency. The Tomlinson inquiry, which was briefed by Vince Cable to investigate the practices of the bank, has alleged that it has been sinking good businesses so that it can profit from their demise. The BBC programme provided evidence to substantiate this allegation, and some startling malfeasance was revealed. A subsidiary agency of the bank was able to acquire the assets of businesses that had been driven into financial difficulties by the effect of the interest rate swaps that the bank itself had foisted on the businesses.

Modern bankers deal with small businesses in a manner that differs markedly from traditional practices. Banks have become increasingly remote from local industry and commerce. In the past, a bank manager would be expected to have an intimate knowledge of his business clients and of their enterprises. Within our lifetimes, the number of private clients of banks has increased dramatically, but nowadays they are dealt with, not on a personal basis, but on a statistical or algorithmic basis, and the same methods are applied to small businesses. The algorithms of banking have two aspects. On the one hand, there is the matter of global resource allocation, which determines the size of the funds that are available for lending, as well as the threshold of creditworthiness. The second aspect is the assessment of the creditworthiness of the potential borrowers, which is also described as their default risk.

A callow young manager can nowadays handle the essential decision in respect of a loan application by a small business in a seemingly objective manner that requires no expert knowledge on his part. The decision depends on a credit score that is formed from an additive combination of measured attributes, both numerical and categorical, that are recorded in a computerised database. The aggregate score is compared to a threshold value, and the request for a loan is granted only if the threshold is surpassed. The typical basis for such decisions is a statistical analysis that covers a large sample of cases. This is a decidedly obtuse way of going about the business.

It is an undoubted statistical fact that a large proportion of start-up businesses are bound to fail. On the other hand, it is among such businesses that the most dynamic elements of a developing economy will be found. It used to be the task of a bank manager to exercise his judgment in discriminating between the businesses that would be viable and those that were bound to fail. The effect of the algorithmic approach is to deny funding to the majority of start-up enterprises on the grounds of the high rate of mortality of the group as a whole. This is profoundly injurious to our future prosperity and to the prospects for employment.

Another dire consequence of the modern approach can arise when, on account of a need to reduce its leverage ratio, a bank such as RBS decides to heighten the threshold that is applied to credit ratings. A group of businesses will then become liable to have their loan facilities withdrawn. It seems that RBS is far more adept at driving its decisions to foreclose on such businesses than it is in assessing their true prospects.

A hit squad called the Global Restructuring Group resides within the bank. The group is intended ostensibly to get businesses back in shape by providing helpful advice and, possibly, by restructuring the loans. Its true purpose seems to be to foreclose on those businesses in a manner that will be most profitable to the bank. This is the kind of abuse that the Labour Party has in mind when it calls for the restructuring of banks and the establishment of new banks to compete with the existing ones.

18:01

[Lord Storey (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for facilitating this debate. It has never been truer that, in a recovering economy, the importance of SMEs is paramount. I suppose that the direct answer to the question of what steps Her Majesty’s Government are taking to improve access to finance for SMEs is the fact that, at long last, the Government have established a business bank—a business bank that has set itself an impressive target of supporting £10 billion of new and additional lending; a business bank that will help small companies struggling to secure finance.

I was fortunate to sit on the Select Committee which looked at how SMEs could increase their exporting, and the published report, Roads to Success: SME Exports, is an important contribution to understanding the importance of SMEs to the economy and how we could have more of them exporting. We would certainly make huge economic progress.

The Select Committee looked at the barriers to exporting: why should a successful SME choose not to export? How could we encourage them to export more? As you can imagine, the reasons and solutions were complex and numerous, but one issue was paramount in their concerns: that, of course, was access to finance.

It is interesting to note that the SME Finance Monitor report by BDRC Continental showed that businesses with the confidence that they had a chance of getting finance were more likely to expand. However, there is a real deficit of confidence when it comes to SMEs looking to get finance. Only 37% of SMEs planning to apply for finance believed that their application would be successful, whereas the actual rates are a lot higher, at almost 67%. The research identified a staggering 270,000 businesses that wanted to apply for finance but never ended up doing so. The report identifies this lack of confidence in their chances of success as a key reason.

These figures show that SMEs often will not apply because they do not think that they will be successful, when actually the opposite is true. That may be why there is a feeling out there that banks are not being supportive. We need to give confidence to them to go for it. The British Bankers’ Association, with its Better Business Finance initiative, is attempting to increase this confidence by awareness-raising campaigns to change that mindset. The message is: approach lenders and you are likely to get the finance that you need to grow and, hopefully, export.

While I constantly hear that banks are doing all they can to prevent finance and lending, my observational experience is that the situation is not nearly as grim as is often painted. I recently met representatives from Santander to talk about how they are helping families in difficult times. The conversation turned to SMEs, and they told me of their ambition to be the SME bank of choice across the country, and how, in the first nine months of 2013, the bank had increased its net lending to SMEs by 11%, opened 15 new business centres, increased the number of relationship managers and established a capital growth fund of £2 million for fast-growth SMEs, which will include trade missions, mentoring and seminars.

That is just one bank, and I do not want to single it out. I know from other contacts and evidence that banks gave to the Select Committee that other banks are just as committed. Of course, we should also mention the successful Funding for Lending scheme.

I started my contribution to this debate by mentioning the importance of the British Business Bank. Since its launch, it has made an impressive start. Total lending and investment support is up by 65% for the first six months of 2013 compared to 2012; £600 million in new finance is now reaching smaller businesses; 10,000 businesses are already benefiting from its support. Access to finance is the lifeblood of SMEs, just as SMEs are the lifeblood of the UK economy.

18:05

[Lord Taylor of Warwick (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for making this timely debate possible.

One evening back in 2007, I was half watching the BBC TV business programme “Dragons’ Den”. A number of people with various hopeless and hapless business ideas had been crushed and humiliated by the comments of the panel. Then, up the stairs walked somebody completely different. He was a black gentleman with dreadlocks named Levi Roots. Instead of the traditional business presentation, he decided to sing his application while playing a guitar. It was such an impressive performance that Peter Jones and Richard Farleigh decided to invest in Levi’s Reggae Reggae Sauce.

Since then Levi has become a multi-millionaire and his sauces and ready meals sell in major supermarkets here and abroad. I was privileged recently to interview Mr Roots for the media. In addition to the surprise of hearing that Levi Roots’s real name is Keith, he was very frank and open about his success. He said that although he always knew he had a good product, he realised he could not take it further without the sort of mentoring and financial backing that he got from the Dragons. The banks were not interested. Levi was one of the lucky ones. But I wonder how many other Levi or Lavinia Roots there are out there.

The ethnic minority business sector contributes an estimated £30 billion per year to the UK economy, but evidence from the Black Training and Enterprise Group shows a gap between the aspirations of minority groups to set up their own business and the actual number who do. Only about 6% do, and the majority fail in the first year of operation.

In July last year, the British Bankers’ Association produced its Ethnic Minority Business and Access to Finance Report. It found that the banks need to do far more to reach underrepresented groups in the SME sector. It also encouraged ethnic minority groups to make full use of initiatives such as the website Mentorsme.co.uk, which helps provide business mentors; and it recommended a series of roadshow events across the country, focusing on inner cities. It also urged banks to link up with the various ethnic minority business groups.

There is something that the report did not mention which I would recommend. The banks and relevant government departments should build stronger relationships with faith groups, because many business people from ethnic minority communities are also members of the Pentecostal church, the mosque or the temple, depending on their faith.

Although the main theme of the debate is finance, I argue that mentoring is just as important, if not more so, in the early stages of a small business. A black teenager was dyslexic in a west London school in the 1980s. It was assumed that he was stupid, so he was put in a remedial class. He left school as a failure, but somehow he got into art college. A few people began to encourage and even to mentor him. That young man eventually went on to win the Turner prize, a Golden Globe and the New York Film Critics Circle prize, and his latest film, which he directed, called “12 Years A Slave”, may win an Oscar and is set to gross hundreds of millions of dollars. His name is Steve McQueen and he has become a huge UK film export. It is a British film because he and many of the main actors are British. Like Levi Roots, everything turned out well for Steve McQueen, but it could so easily have gone the other way. How many other Steve or Stephanie McQueens are we missing out on?

This is my last point. The Lord Mayor of London, Fiona Woolf—only the second female lord mayor since 1189—last week launched the Power of Diversity programme, a series of lectures and conferences to promote diversity. I am glad to say there are some banks involved in that. Hopefully we can soon say, truly, that diversity means business.

18:10

[Lord Stevenson of Balmacara (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lord Berkeley on securing this debate and thank all noble Lords for their contributions. We have heard about the range, diversity and potential for growth and employment that exists in our SMEs. Surely it is common ground in this House that if Britain is to grow its way out of the current cost of living crisis that people are experiencing, and we are to build a balanced recovery that lasts, we need to do all we can to help our small businesses grow and create new jobs.

To create more and better-paid jobs, Britain needs more small businesses and it needs the best of them to scale up. A number of noble Lords have mentioned the resources and skills that are required here, including mentoring, but the main problem always seems to be, and comes back to, receiving finance. In this context, we have heard today about some rather difficult issues being alleged against the Royal Bank of Scotland, owned by the taxpayer. In the press today there are reports that Lloyds is cutting down its SME division. In his response, could the Minister tell us what is going on in our banks?

Several noble Lords mentioned the recently published NAO report. It shows that the flow of new bank term lending to SMEs fell by 23% between 2009 and 2012, that 70% of SMEs have loan applications rejected and get no alternative finance, and that the funding gap—the difference between the funding required by SMEs and the funding actually available—is currently between £10 billion and £11 billion but may reach about £22 billion by 2017. There is clearly a real problem here.

It is this sort of consideration that prompted the Labour Party and its BIS team to back a number of initiatives. The first was to support the UK’s first ever Small Business Saturday, which took place on 7 December. It resulted in an additional half a billion pounds of trade going to small businesses. Initiatives like this can help, but we also think that the Government need to do more to ensure that firms get access to the financing capital they so desperately need. That is why we believe that there should be greater competition within the banking sector. We need something that every other G8 country has—a proper state-backed lending institution and, alongside it, a network of regional banks that really understand local business needs. Will the Minister confirm that the current work on a British investment bank in his department will help resolve that problem?

We will also go further. My noble friend Lord Adonis recently published a report on a recommendation to establish a UK small business administration, which we intend to set up if elected in 2015. This would create a step change in the opportunities for small businesses from government procurement, improve the quality of support available, and operate alongside the British investment bank and the network of regional banks I mentioned. Will the Government also match this initiative?

18:13

[Lord Popat (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all those who have contributed, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, who initiated this important and timely debate. I say that it is timely because a lot is happening, although there is a lot more to do. In my response I shall outline the measures that the Government are taking to improve access for our small and medium-sized businesses through schemes such as Funding for Lending, the creation of the British Business Bank, and by increasing competition in the business finance market.

The UK economy is recovering from the biggest financial crisis in generations. Alongside the Government’s strategy for deficit reduction, we have committed to ensuring that businesses can obtain the finance they need for investment and growth. The Bank of England’s most recent Trends in Lending and credit reports show that confidence is beginning to return, helped by interventions such as the Funding for Lending scheme and the British Business Bank. However, we recognise that challenges remain for smaller businesses.

Let me start with Funding for Lending. In April last year, we extended the Funding for Lending scheme to bring non-bank credit providers into scope. We also increased the Funding for Lending allowance that banks earned by lending to SMEs. In November, additional changes and incentives were announced to focus the scheme still further on encouraging lending to SMEs, the sector of the economy where it is now most needed. The evidence to date is that Funding for Lending has kept the overall cost of credit to SMEs down, which has helped in a tough trading environment. However, with the recent changes there is scope for it to do even more to encourage SME lending.

A number of noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, mentioned the British Business Bank. Substantial progress has been made in setting up the bank, which will be fully operational in the autumn of this year pending state aid approval. We will need European approval to get the state aid approval through. The chair, the senior independent director and the chief executive officer are in place. Collectively, they have strong financial sector backgrounds and small business lending experience—from the private and public sectors, but most importantly from the banking and regulatory sector—so we will have a good team to run our new British Business Bank. The British Business Bank will support economic growth by bringing together public and private sector funds to create more effective and efficient finance markets for our small and medium-sized businesses. It will do this by bringing together the management of existing government loan guarantee and investment schemes, and it will have the flexibility to develop new initiatives to form a comprehensive package of support for UK businesses. I will outline this in more detail.

Existing British Business Bank schemes are already delivering. They supported total lending and investment of £650 million in 2013, an increase of 70% compared with 2012. As of the end of 2013, over 25,000 smaller businesses were benefiting from British Business Bank support. The Government are determined to build on this level of support. We have developed a new wholesale loan guarantee programme that will make small business lending more capital-efficient for banks, thus incentivising them to increase lending to businesses. Through the British Business Bank, a £300 million investment programme is designed to increase the supply and diversity of finance available to SMEs through non-bank lending channels. It operates on a commercial basis, with the Government investing on equal terms to the private sector. This includes challenger banks and peer-to-peer lenders. Overall, as my noble friend Lord Storey mentioned, the British Business Bank’s resources will help to unlock up to £10 billion of additional financing for smaller businesses over the next five years.

The third point is on competition, which was mentioned by the noble Lords, Lord Berkeley and Lord Stevenson. Alongside the British Business Bank, the Government are also taking steps to increase competition and choice in traditional banking and raise awareness of the support available. There has been an acknowledged overreliance on our four biggest banks, which between them account for 85% of business current accounts. However, action on a number of fronts is being taken to change this. First, two new banks, Williams & Glyn Bank and the Trustee Savings Bank, are being spun out from the Royal Bank of Scotland and Lloyds Bank and will establish a significant presence in the banking market. Other challenger banks such as Metro Bank, Shawbrook, Aldermore and Cambridge & Counties are also growing in scale and significance.

Secondly, significant changes have been made by the financial regulators to reduce the entry barriers for new banks. New entrants now face lower capital liquidity requirements and approval processes have been streamlined. These changes are already making an impact; there are currently more than 20 applications for banking licences being considered by the financial regulators so, given time, we will have real competition and a real regional presence as well. Apart from the five we already have in place with Williams & Glyn and the TSB coming forward, those 20 new applications will, I hope, mean that we will have a substantial number of new banks in the market and that competition will close some of the problems we currently face. Thirdly, the Office of Fair Trading is currently undertaking a market study of SME banking. We await the findings with great interest and will consider them carefully.

Other work to increase competition includes the introduction last September of a seven-day switching service, which makes it far easier for consumers and small businesses to switch their current accounts. In December 2013, more than 83,000 customers switched their current accounts, an increase of 54% on the equivalent figure in December 2012.

A couple of noble Lords mentioned awareness. The banks are playing their part. Last week, the major banks launched a campaign aimed at restoring confidence among small businesses that finance is available. In other words, they are inviting SMEs to apply with a view to lending money to them. A core element of the campaign is raising awareness of the appeals process. If an SME has been rejected by the bank or is unhappy with the conditions it is offered, it now has a right to appeal. To date, more than 8,000 appeals have been submitted, of which more than 37% have been overturned, facilitating an additional £40 million of lending. The scheme provides a vital reassurance that banks will consider all lending applications thoroughly, but it needs greater visibility to encourage more businesses to seek funding. The banks’ campaign to address this is welcome.

The Government also recognise that more needs to be done to raise awareness of their own schemes. The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, mentioned a number of government schemes that are in place. We have launched the “Business is Great” campaign, a marketing campaign using digital and traditional media channels to raise awareness among SMEs of the support that is available.

The noble Lord, Lord Storey, mentioned the difficulty that SMEs have in getting export finance. I was privileged to set the remit of and be in the ad hoc committee chaired by my noble friend Lord Cope, which the noble Lord, Lord Storey, mentioned. The committee met a large number of SMEs and listened to the difficulties of raising money. I am pleased to say that the committee’s report has been published. It made recommendations to the Government, and the Government have taken action through UKTI and have come up with a number of schemes to help SMEs to learn more. One in five SMEs exports. If we achieve a figure of one in four, we will clear our huge deficit on external trade. I commend the contribution of that committee because it made a hell of a difference. Unfortunately, for my sins, I had to step down to join the Front Bench.

Credit conditions for SMEs are improving. The noble Viscount, Lord Hanworth, mentioned that there is not enough lending. SME gross lending was 39% higher, year on year, in November 2013, and net lending has been positive in three out of the past nine months, but I accept that although gross lending has gone up, net lending has gone down. Lately, it has picked up. In nine out of those 12 months, net lending dropped, except in the past two or three months when it started to pick up. This is partly due to many schemes that are now available for SMEs to borrow money, not necessarily from their traditional banks.

A number of issues were raised. I will try to be as brief as possible in view of the time, and I will be very happy to write to noble Lords. The noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, mentioned the lack of finance. We have come up with a number of schemes. He mentioned existing businesses that want to grow. I agree with him. The restaurant he mentioned was a classic example of a successful SME business that goes to the bank to borrow money with a view to expanding. From what I have heard, and from having been an SME for 30 years, I know that it is very difficult to raise money, and quite often the banks want to renegotiate existing loans, adding covenants and higher margins. It is difficult for existing successful businessmen to raise money because the banks want to renegotiate and renege on the original contract. I accept that that is an issue that a large number of SMEs face. We have heard stories recently about the banks pulling the plug at the last minute.

The noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, said that SMEs are key to our recovery. Of course they are. They are the engine of the economy. There are 4.6 million SMEs. The good news is that since 2010 about 460,000 SME have been created. The noble Lord mentioned late payments; I will certainly cover that in my letter.

The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, mentioned a number of things, some of which I have addressed in my speech. On the relationship between customers and banks, the noble Lord is right. It is important that banks have a good relationship with their customers. Quite often, from what is said, the banks appoint lawyers from their panel of solicitors, who tend to charge a lot more than the market rate. The banks are effectively checking the work done by the customer. There is the same problem with valuation. The banks should really give their customers a choice, whereby those customers can negotiate legal and valuation fees. The noble Lord has asked me to see whether I can have a meeting with the banks’ chief executives; I will endeavour to do so.

The noble Lord, Lord Leigh, whom I commend on his experience in this field, mentioned regulation and the equity gap. On regulation, the Government’s policy is, “One in, two out”. In the past three or four years, we have managed to get rid of a large number of regulations, saving SMEs £850 million.

My time is up. I would be delighted to write to noble Lords who have raised points which I have missed.

House adjourned at 6.26 pm.