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Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
1. What recent progress he has made on the red tape challenge.
Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con)
4. What recent progress he has made on the red tape challenge.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
5. What recent progress he has made on the red tape challenge.
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk)
To date, of the more than 1,200 regulations considered under the red tape challenge, we have agreed to scrap or substantially overhaul well over 50%. That is in addition to our plans to cap the cost of new regulations through the one-in, one-out system.
Rehman Chishti
I am very grateful to the Minister for that answer. Will he clarify how much the one-in, one-out rule saved businesses in 2011?
Brandon Lewis
Businesses across my constituency and elsewhere, and organisations such as the Federation of Small Businesses, are making it clear that red tape and bureaucracy are the biggest blocks to growth and employment. After six new pieces of red tape or regulation a day under the Labour Government, will the Minister outline how many regulations have already been cut and what his ambitions are for the rest of this Parliament?
Mr Prisk
We inherited a scenario in which there was the equivalent of six new regulations every working day. I am therefore pleased to say that in the last year we have identified 600 regulations under the red tape challenge which we will either scrap or substantially overhaul, and we intend to ensure that we increase that number in the years to come.
Alun Cairns
Reducing the number of regulations is extremely important, but so are the interpretation of regulations, particularly those from Europe, and the risk of gold-plating regulations, such as the agency worker directive. What action is the Minister taking to ensure that in interpreting regulations, we use the lightest touch possible to comply with the law?
Mr Prisk
We have changed the guiding principles from those that we inherited. That means, first, that we are not going to tie British business down by implementing early, as we have in the past. We will implement on the last legal day, under transposition rules. Secondly, my hon. Friend is absolutely right about interpretation. We will ensure that we copy regulations out and do not embellish them, as was sadly all too often the case under the last, Labour Government.
Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)
Higher education applications in this country have collapsed, although not across the board—I think applications to Oxford, Cambridge and Durham have increased. However, in the universities that ordinary people go to, they have collapsed.
Ian Austin (Dudley North) (Lab)
Nobody disputes that unnecessary regulation and red tape have to be dealt with, but Government Members are deluding themselves if they think that is the central issue, when unemployment is at record levels and the economy has ground to a halt. Every time I go to meet a successful manufacturing company that has orders waiting and wants to take on new staff, I am told that the central problem is the lack of finance. Instead of trying to pursue this issue, the Minister should be concentrating on getting money from the banks to manufacturers so we can get the economy moving and they can take on more staff.
Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)
As part of the red tape challenge, will the Minister look again at the regulations that deny employees the right to proper compensation or redundancy payments if their workplace has fewer than 20 people, as is the case for ex-employees of Woolworths? That is regulation that successive Governments have failed to address.
Mr Prisk
I am aware that what the hon. Gentleman refers to is a live case, so I must be careful in the sense that it is before the tribunals. However, I am sure that the representations he has made are clear. Again, we need to strike the right balance so that employers and employees have a fairer deal. Frankly, I do not think that was the case in the 13 years of the last, Labour Government.
Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)
Last year, 171 people were killed at work and 115,000 were seriously injured. Is the Minister really saying that now is the time to water down health and safety legislation?
Mr Prisk
The changes that Professor Löfstedt has identified are not about reducing safety at work; they are about cutting unnecessary red tape. That is clear; indeed, it is why one Opposition Member has been part of that panel and has supported its proposals, which this Government will implement.
Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab)
2. For what reasons he does not plan to implement all the recommendations of the High Pay Commission.
Mr Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)
12. For what reasons he does not plan to implement all the recommendations of the High Pay Commission.
The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)
I welcome the High Pay Commission’s valuable contribution to this debate. The proposals that I announced to the House last week drew on its analysis, and we are taking forward 11 of its 12 recommendations either in full or in spirit. We have chosen not to implement its recommendation requiring workers to be put on all remuneration committees.
Gregg McClymont
Most people in this country would consider £180,000 a year to be high pay. Will the Secretary of State tell the House who signed off the special dispensation with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs regarding the extraordinary tax arrangements of Mr Ed Lester, the chief executive of the Student Loans Company?
Vince Cable
I understand that there is to be an urgent question shortly, when hon. Members will be able to go into that issue in detail if they wish. I simply say that this concerns an exceptionally useful individual who has helped to turn around that organisation. The arrangements under which the negotiations took place involved substantial value for money for the taxpayer and a tax cut by the individual. We will pursue matters of public concern on the tax issues, and the answers will be given by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury in response to the urgent question.
Vince Cable
These issues will be answered, and the mechanics dealt with, in the urgent question in an hour’s time.
George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that, as we all share an ambition to put the employee’s voice on the board, the best way to do that is to encourage employee share ownership?
Vince Cable
It is indeed. Employee ownership is an expanding movement, and a popular one. It allows employees to become involved in the companies in which they have a share, and we wish to see it encouraged. We also wish to see workers properly consulted; there are powers to achieve that under existing legislation, but they are not being sufficiently used.
Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is better to force companies to consult all employees, rather than consulting one individual? How would that individual be chosen, especially in a company that might be located in many parts of the world?
Vince Cable
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. That is why we are stressing employee participation in remuneration discussions. There are powers under existing regulations and we want to encourage people to take more advantage of them. As she rightly says, there are enormous practical difficulties involved in choosing one employee who can properly represent the whole of an international labour force.
Mr Speaker
Order. The right hon. Gentleman is being saved up for later. It would be a pity to waste him at such an early stage in our proceedings.
Ian Murray (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
You can waste me first, Mr Speaker.
The Secretary of State will be aware of the performance targets set down in the Project Merlin agreement. One of the agreed measures to determine the bonuses of bank chief executives was to examine whether banks were providing the promised credit to businesses and, in particular, to small and medium-sized enterprises. The agreement also clearly stated that there would be no rewards for failure. Why, then, did the Government wave through the bonus for the Royal Bank of Scotland chief executive before the Bank of England had published the annual Project Merlin lending figures?
Vince Cable
The chief executive was on a contract, which I think was negotiated when Labour was in government. It had five separate metrics, of which that was one. It is certainly true that, according to the provisional data, RBS has not quite met its gross lending targets, but the Merlin agreement has not yet run its course, and we shall await its findings with interest.
Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)
3. What assessment he has made of the prospects for growth in 2012.
The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)
The Office for Budget Responsibility produces independent forecasts for the economy and for the public finances. The OBR’s November 2011 economic and fiscal outlook predicts that the UK economy will grow by 0.7% this year and by 2.1% in 2013.
Huw Irranca-Davies
I thank the Secretary of State for that answer, but consumer confidence is plummeting, the retail sector is struggling, the growth in jobs in the private sector is not matching the losses in the public sector, and in my constituency scores of people are chasing every single job. So if not Labour’s five-point plan for jobs and growth, what? This Government are not working.
Vince Cable
If the hon. Gentleman actually read the analysis produced by the Bank of England and, more recently, the Institute for Fiscal Studies, he would understand why the economy is growing slowly. The combination of higher commodity and oil prices last year and, more recently, the crisis in the eurozone is affecting all developed countries, many of them much more than the UK.
Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con)
As confidence in growth continues to diminish among members of the small business community, does the Secretary of State share my view that the Chancellor should use more than one tool to get the economy moving? Many people think that he has lost the tool box. What influence is the Secretary of State bringing to bear on behalf of small businesses to nudge the Chancellor into creating greater private sector demand?
Vince Cable
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to stress the crucial importance of small business. As he well knows from the autumn statement, the Chancellor has come forward with ideas about credit easing to make credit more easily available at lower rates to small companies, and we will wait for the Budget to see how that will be elaborated.
Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)
Our economy contracted in the last quarter, with small business confidence at rock bottom in the latest Federation of Small Businesses survey, and we teeter on the edge of recession, yet Ministers have lost control of the levers that active government has for growth. Why, 10 months after the first regional growth fund winners were announced, do a third still wait for their money while £1 billion from Europe lies idle? With national apprenticeship week about to start, why are Ministers not, as we have urged them, taking unused money from the growth and innovation fund to expand local schemes for small businesses to take on thousands more young people? Is it not true that today, under this Government, growth is just as glacial as the weather?
Vince Cable
On the specifics, as the hon. Gentleman will know, a third of regional growth fund projects have already started. I am surprised that he picks up apprenticeships as a theme, because we have increased their number by 50% in the last year from the rather depressed levels we inherited. In terms of broad policy, I understand that the hon. Gentleman is standing in this morning for my opposite number, the hon. Member for Streatham (Mr Umunna), who wrote to tell me that he has gone to Germany looking for inspiration. I think the first thing the Germans will tell him is that if he wants sustainable growth, there has to be fiscal discipline.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
In these difficult times, the food and drink sector is an example of success with year-on-year growth. I commend the report by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and UK Trade and Investment entitled “Driving Export Growth in the Farming, Food and Drink Sector”, but trade barriers still exist. Will the Secretary of State ensure that such trade barriers are broken down so that this sector can go from strength to strength?
Vince Cable
My colleague is right to stress the importance of the food sector, including food manufacturing. We often talk about advanced manufacturing, but some of the most sophisticated industries are often in those traditional product areas. He is right about the importance of opening barriers. In the European Union context, my team is actively pursuing trade liberalisation with a variety of Asian countries, the Mercosur countries and others. We hope that those agreements will be delivered soon.
Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)
6. What his policy is on the Daylight Saving Bill; and if he will make a statement.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey)
May I first pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Castle Point (Rebecca Harris) for her excellent work on her private Member’s Bill? As the House knows, the Government supported the Bill, as amended in Committee. Unfortunately, and as the Leader of the House made clear last week, there is no way the Bill could complete its passage through both Houses in this Session, but it could be taken forwards by a private Member’s Bill in a future Session. The Government would not, however, expect to introduce any trial of daylight saving time if there was clear opposition in any part of the UK.
Hugh Bayley
In the Western Morning News, the Secretary of State is reported as saying that he is disappointed that the Bill was killed by a handful of Back Benchers who could not see the light, and that he did not rule out Ministers—I repeat, Ministers—finding more time. If the Government are genuinely committed to this measure, as they say they are, and if it is not just warm words and they really want it to happen, will they commit to bring forward a Bill of their own in this Session or the next?
Mr Davey
The Leader of the House explained the problems of doing so in this Session and was equally clear that we would welcome a private Member’s Bill in the next Session. This Government have worked harder on this issue than the last one did, and we have made more progress. I would hope for emerging consensus in the House because this Government are making real efforts.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
The Minister seems to be trying to face two ways at once. It is quite clear that time could have been made. We have a general debate later today and the time for it could quite easily have been devoted to private Members’ Bills. I doubt whether today’s business will run the full course. Come on, let’s put this Bill back on and let Parliament decide.
Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con)
7. What steps his Department is taking to support micro-businesses.
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk)
The Government have already acted to make it easier to start and grow micro-businesses. Action has included cutting corporation tax rates, extending relief from business rates, and introducing a moratorium from regulation for all micro-businesses.
Anne Marie Morris
The Minister is conducting a review of disruptive business models as part of the red tape challenge. Has he considered introducing a new limited liability scheme for sole traders, similar to the limited liability partnership? I believe that such a scheme operates in France, and it would be fantastic to see one like it operating here.
Mr Prisk
I know that my hon. Friend is a real champion of micro-businesses. The Government have focused on practical measures that help the micro-businesses’ bottom line, but, as she knows, I am happy to consider the legal issues with her and her all-party parliamentary group.
Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)
On Friday I attended the opening of a micro-business in my constituency, Little Rembrandt’s Café in Ferryhill. That business opened despite the Government and despite the banks, which refused to lend. The owner had to put her own financial security on the line by remortgaging her house. That situation obviously cannot be right, because it is stifling growth in the economy.
Mr Prisk
I understand the hon. Lady’s point. Two thirds of small businesses are able to secure the money that they want, but that is no consolation to those who are not. Perhaps I could write to the hon. Lady about the community development finance institutions, which we have been funding and which are well placed to help the kind of micro-business to which she has referred.
Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)
When will the call for evidence on making it easier for micro-businesses to part company with their employees begin, and what will be the terms of reference?
Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)
The Minister was right to describe the hon. Member for Newton Abbot (Anne Marie Morris) as a great champion of micro-businesses. Last week she called for the Government to introduce a VAT cut to 5% on construction, which is part of our five-point plan.
The truth is that the Government are failing Britain’s small businesses. They have failed to live up to expectations on regulation, they have failed to persuade the banks to lend to small businesses, and they have failed to get growth into our economy. Why does the Minister keep pretending that small businesses think his policies are working when it is so clear that they are not?
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
8. What steps he plans to take to address executive pay and reduce rewards for failure.
The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)
Last week I announced a comprehensive package of measures to tackle the disconnect between executive pay and company performance. These proposals will increase simplicity and clarity, give shareholders more effective power through binding votes, increase the diversity of boards and remuneration committees, and encourage employees to be more engaged.
Simon Hughes
In the last few weeks the chief executive of Lloyds TSB, then the chairman of the Royal Bank of Scotland, and then its chief executive appear to have got the message that huge bonuses are not acceptable in this time of austerity. Given that this month we expect both banks to announce significant losses amounting to millions of pounds, how can Government, Parliament and constituents such as mine in Southwark convey the message to the rest of the directors and investment bankers in the publicly owned banks that they too should not have huge bonuses in times of austerity?
Vince Cable
Those two individuals are symbolically very important, but what is much more important is that we have a proper system governing executive pay over the long term, and that is what my proposals were designed to achieve. Bonuses in the banking sector as a whole are now running at roughly a third of the level at which they operated at the peak of the boom when Labour was in power. As for the state-owned banks, my right hon. Friend will know that a set of disciplines is being introduced through United Kingdom Financial Investments Ltd.
Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)
Does the Secretary of State agree with Will Hutton, the chair of his High Pay Commission, that there should be a definite risk to the basic pay of executives who fail to meet their targets?
Vince Cable
Yes. I have talked extensively to Will Hutton about that. In the proposals that I will bring forward next week, we will introduce the principle of a clawback; that clawback can operate in different ways, and we are certainly looking seriously at one of the ways that Will Hutton has recommended.
Neil Parish (Tiverton and Honiton) (Con)
To get to the dizzy heights of executive pay, one must first get a job. What are Ministers doing to reduce the red tape and bureaucracy relating to apprenticeship schemes for small and medium-sized businesses?
Mr Speaker
That question is fascinating, but sadly it bears absolutely no relation to the question on the Order Paper, so the hon. Gentleman should keep it for the spring, or some other suitable time.
Mr George Mudie (Leeds East) (Lab)
In view of the Secretary of State’s answers, will he assure the House that he has made representations to the Chancellor and United Kingdom Financial Investments Ltd to make sure that in the RBS last year’s practice of giving 323 bankers bonuses in excess of £1 million is not repeated, and that the anticipated payment of £4.5 million to John Hourican, a senior banker in RBS, does not go ahead?
Vince Cable
Of course there is a continuing issue with the scale of bonuses in RBS, but they are vastly reduced from their former level. We are conscious of the issues involved. Many of those people are American traders operating in the United States, but we are conscious that every amount that goes out in bonuses is money that could otherwise have gone to small businesses.
Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)
9. What plans he has to facilitate the provision of higher education in further education institutions.
The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning (Mr John Hayes)
The Government see a crucial role for further education colleges in delivering higher education, because demand cannot be enlivened unless supply is diverse, so we are extending loans to part-time students; freeing up controls on student numbers; increasing directly funded places at FE colleges; widening access to higher learning; and changing assumptions about the modes of and access points to learning. It is higher education for the many, not the few.
Henry Smith
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his answer. Will he join me in congratulating Central Sussex college in my constituency, which last September started a university presence on its campus? It is linking local students—under the previous Government, only 17% of them went on to higher education—with first-class local employers. Of course, he has an open invitation to visit.
Mr Hayes
I am aware of that excellent development, which enjoys the wholehearted support of my right hon. Friend the Minister for Universities and Science, who has done much to encourage the widening of access to higher education. My right hon. Friend will offer some exciting news about additional places when he rises to his feet, because we are determined that everyone, wherever they begin, should have their chance of glittering prizes.
Mr Adrian Bailey (West Bromwich West) (Lab/Co-op)
There is very real concern in the FE sector that, arising from the core and margin provisions for higher education and a potential reduction in university places, higher education institutions may claw back provision from FE colleges. What reassurance can the Minister give the sector that that will not happen?
Mr Hayes
The hon. Gentleman is right to draw attention to that risk, and it is absolutely right that, given our ambition to widen access, which I articulated a few moments ago, universities should not engage in anti-competitive practices. The Secretary of State has made it clear that that is not acceptable, and my right hon. Friend the Minister for Universities and Science is taking action to prevent it. We will take a very dim view of universities that are not engaged with our mission to elevate the people through access to learning.
Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)
University Campus Suffolk is based in Ipswich, in a neighbouring constituency to mine. One of the challenges it faces is that as it does not award its own degrees, it is not allowed to appear in the league tables, or in other listings that students readily access. Is there something that can be done to remove that element of bureaucracy, so that it can appear alongside any other university?
Mr Hayes
Sometimes, my relentless drive to remove bureaucracy is regarded as excessive, but if that is the charge, I plead guilty. My hon. Friend is absolutely right: we need to make the process as straightforward as possible, and we will take action to do so, partly stimulated by her question and her excellent work in this area.
Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab)
The expansion of the role of further education colleges in providing higher education is a positive step, but it sits alongside the Government’s plans to expand the role of for-profit providers in delivering higher education. Will the Minister tell us whether the Government will bring a higher education Bill to the House later this year, and will he undertake not to introduce regulatory changes that make it easier for for-profits to enter the sector without full parliamentary scrutiny?
Mr Hayes
If I were a less experienced Member of this House, the hon. Lady’s erudition and charm might encourage me to make predictions about the Queen’s Speech, but it would be quite wrong to do so and I cannot possibly answer that question. What I will say is that the determination on this side of the House to seed opportunity by providing greater access to higher education is a profound one.
Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)
10. What recent progress he has made on determining the location of the green investment bank.
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk)
In December, the Department invited applications to bid for hosting the green investment bank. The closing date was Monday 30 January, and a total of 32 bids were received. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will make a decision shortly.
Catherine McKinnell
Newcastle has submitted an outstanding bid to host the green investment bank, and as a region we have the right mix of natural environment, green expertise, infrastructure and professional services, all supported to grow under the last Government in order to make it a success. However, bearing in mind that we are the region with the highest unemployment levels, to what extent will the Government’s commitment to supporting private sector growth, particularly in areas suffering the greatest loss of public sector employment, be a factor in the decision-making process?
Mr Prisk
I do not wish to prejudice the case Newcastle has put forward as one of the applicants. All I will say is that we will look at the points the hon. Lady has raised as part of the criteria for all applicants, and make sure that we can get a decision out by the end of the month.
Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
11. What recent assessment he has made of prospects for economic growth and their effect on business confidence.
The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)
As I noted earlier, the independent Office for Budget Responsibility forecasts that the UK economy will grow at 0.7% this year and 2.1% in 2013. The OBR states that the intensification of the European sovereign debt crisis has
“doubtless helped to reduce confidence”.
Lilian Greenwood
One of Nottingham’s Work programme providers recently told me not only that she was disappointed that the future jobs fund had been scrapped, but that local employers were reluctant to invest in apprenticeships because they simply were not confident they would have jobs for the apprentices to fill at the end of the process. Is it not time that this Government admitted that their economic plan has failed dismally, and that they need to adopt Labour’s plan for growth and jobs?
Vince Cable
I am very surprised that the hon. Lady gives apprenticeships as the central example of failure, given that apprenticeship numbers have risen by 50% and apprenticeships are extremely popular with young people and employers. This is a success story, and I am surprised she is denigrating it.
Perhaps I should also point to the most recent indicators, which were published yesterday. In the manufacturing sector, which is absolutely critical for recovery, the purchasing managers index suggests a significant recovery in the short run.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
The Government had the good sense to award a grant under the regional growth fund to the Goonhilly radio astronomy project in my constituency. That is very welcome, but the implementation of the decision seems rather slow. Will the Secretary of State look into the matter and accelerate the implementation of that project, which will generate many jobs in our local community?
Vince Cable
I am aware of the difficulties associated with that project, which relate to the fact that we are trying to integrate two separate bidders. My hon. Friend knows the practical difficulties, but we will certainly do the best we can to expedite the project.
Mr Iain Wright (Hartlepool) (Lab)
The Secretary of State will be aware of the chorus of disapproval at the manner in which the Government have handled the decision on solar power feed-in tariffs. Both the CBI and the Environmental Audit Committee have stated that it has wrecked supply chains and undermined confidence. Erica Robb of Spirit Solar told the Prime Minister last month that “weeks of chaos” have resulted in her having to lay off more than a third of her work force. As the Minister charged with responsibility for growth and co-ordination of industrial policy, what role did the Secretary of State and his Department have in this debacle, and how does the Government’s decision help the establishment of a long-term, credible and co-ordinated industrial strategy that supports fledgling sectors and provides the environment for business confidence and economic growth?
Vince Cable
This Department certainly does wish to promote the renewables sector and the supply chains. However, given the history of this problem, the hon. Gentleman will know that the level of subsidy—which I think his Government fixed—was totally unsustainable, and action had to be taken to cap it.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
Has the Business Secretary had the opportunity to assess the implication of the growing places fund for infrastructure projects such as that relating to the A64 in North Yorkshire? What criteria will apply to selecting such projects, and how can we guide the local enterprise partnership in the right direction?
Mr Speaker
Order. I know that the Secretary of State’s reply will relate to economic growth and business confidence.
Vince Cable
That infrastructure fund, which relates specifically to small projects, has proved very valuable and the local enterprise partnerships have an important role in working up those projects. There are set criteria, of which they are well aware, that they must meet.
Jim McGovern (Dundee West) (Lab)
13. What recent discussions he has had with the Scottish Government on promoting job creation in Scotland.
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Greg Clark)
Ministers in the Department have regular conversations with Scottish colleagues on areas of mutual interest. I have been invited to meet representatives of Scotland’s cities to discuss their contribution to the economy and I expect to do so shortly. Much of Britain’s future prosperity depends on our cities, including Dundee.
Jim McGovern
I thank the Minister for that response. Job creation is of paramount importance in my constituency in Dundee. Dundee has a highly skilled and highly educated work force, but despite that fact unemployment figures remain stubbornly high, particularly those for youth unemployment. There is an increasing feeling that that is the fault of both the coalition Government and the separatists in Edinburgh, who seem unwilling to use their powers to promote economic growth—they are too busy pointing their finger at other people for that. Will the Minister make an urgent assessment of how he, working with the Scottish Executive, can improve job creation throughout Scotland?
Greg Clark
I will, but it is fair to point out that, under the Labour Government, youth unemployment increased by 40%, so I think the hon. Gentleman is wrong to imply that that phenomenon has just established itself. He will know that the best and only way to create jobs is on the basis of a successful, stable economy. He will have seen the Institute for Fiscal Studies report yesterday that made it very clear that had the previous Government’s plans been in place, borrowing would have been at £76 billion in 2016-17 rather than £26 billion. That would have been disastrous for the credit rating of this country and the interest rates on which job creation depends.
John Stevenson (Carlisle) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that one way to create jobs and promote job creation is for cities to embrace the concept of elected mayors and would he encourage the Scottish Executive to do so?
Greg Clark
That is a matter for the Scottish Executive, but my hon. Friend will know that we are debating orders in Parliament to require referendums in the cities of England to give people the choice of whether they should have elected mayors. We would not be doing that if we did not think that elected mayors gave the kind of leadership that London has benefited from considerably through the leadership of the Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, in recent years.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
14. What steps his Department is taking to promote business growth.
The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David Willetts)
The plan for growth commits the coalition to creating the most competitive tax system in the G20. We will make the UK the best place in Europe to start, finance and grow a business and we will create a more educated work force who will be the most flexible in Europe.
Thomas Docherty
I am most grateful for that answer. Given the vital role of exports in trying to grow our economy and yesterday’s disastrous news about Typhoon not being take up by the Indians, will the Minister meet me and other BAE Systems MPs to find out what his Department can do to get behind BAE Systems?
Mr Willetts
Let us be absolutely clear that the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State and I have all been on trade missions to India because we recognise its importance as an export market. British exports are growing by 10% and we will continue to argue the case for Typhoon as an excellent and cost-effective deal for the Indian Government. Of course, Ministers would be very happy to meet employees.
Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)
Economic growth has been greatly enhanced in east Kent by the huge amount of work done by BIS for the enterprise zone and the regional growth fund. What more can be done through UK Trade & Investment to promote life sciences internationally and to get inward investment into east Kent?
Mr Willetts
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Of course, this week is the first anniversary of the announcement by Pfizer that it was planning to close completely its facility at Sandwich. That will now be transformed into a research and business park, not least thanks to the excellent efforts of my hon. Friend. Indeed, Pfizer will be an anchor tenant employing, we believe, 750 Pfizer staff. That shows we can fight back and we can maintain life sciences activity in this country. Through the proposals we set out in December, we aim to increase that.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
If we are to get business growth in our country, we must provide finance. Does not the report that the Minister has just made on the green bank show the truth that we want that sort of bank in each region, particularly in Yorkshire and the Humber? We want a bank for every region that knows the local circumstances and will invest in our regions.
Mr Willetts
I have a lot of sympathy with the argument that overall we need to see much greater diversity in British banking. Indeed, one reason why the Government are implementing the proposals from the Vickers commission is precisely to make it possible to have once more local banks that understand the needs of the local business community and local individuals, but our position on the green investment bank has been made clear by the Secretary of State.
Heidi Alexander (Lewisham East) (Lab)
15. What recent assessment he has made of the strength of the construction industry.
The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning (Mr John Hayes)
The construction industry, as with much of the economy, has come through a difficult period and faces a challenging year ahead but, as ever, in the areas for which I am responsible I offer sunny uplands. Figures published just yesterday show that construction industry apprenticeships for 2010-11 saw an increase of 11.4%—fine words, still finer deeds.
Heidi Alexander
The Minister says that the construction industry faces a challenging year, but it faces a challenging decade. The Construction Industry Training Board points to new research suggesting that employment and output in the construction industry in 2016 will be 5% lower than 2007 levels. Given that the construction industry could be a real stimulant to jobs and growth, will the Minister tell me when the Government are going to come up with policies that actually work instead of ones that just sound good on paper?
Mr Hayes
The figures I just revealed show that the construction is not being hampered by current difficulties but is investing in its future. We know that industry sectors that invest in the future bounce out of the kind of downturn that the industry currently faces. However, I accept what the hon. Lady says and we will go further. As a result of her question and my consideration of these matters, I will, with the CBI and the Federation of Small Businesses, invite the construction industry into BIS to talk about how that boost in apprenticeships can feed the kind of improvements that she seeks and Britain needs. Talking down business is talking down Britain, and that is something we will never do on this side of the House.
Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)
Construction is an important sector in my constituency, but its future very much depends on making sure that we have the skills available to support this sector for the future. Will my hon. Friend set out what actions he is taking to make sure that we support skills in this vital area?
Mr Hayes
As I said, the investment in apprenticeships is critical. No one doubts that construction industry apprenticeships are vital to building the skills the industry needs. I just want to say that no Member of the House has been more doughty in championing the interests of business in his constituency than my hon. Friend. He personifies our determination to boost skills, improve our prospects and build recovery.
Mr Speaker
I am sure the hon. Gentleman is very grateful for the Minister’s tribute.
Tristram Hunt (Stoke-on-Trent Central) (Lab)
16. What assessment he has made of the effect of higher tuition fees on the level of university admissions in the next academic year.
The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David Willetts)
UCAS published figures on 30 January 2012 covering applications to higher education institutions by its main deadline. That independent information shows that the proportion of English school leavers applying to university is the second-highest on record and is higher than in any year under the previous Labour Government. It is also encouraging that applications from people from some of the most disadvantaged backgrounds remain strong. We will continue to monitor closely the data on applications.
Tristram Hunt
I thank the Minister for his answer and draw attention to my interest in this matter, as set out in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests. Since this Government’s punitive and regressive £27,000 tuition fees have been introduced, university applications for design are down more than 16%, applications for history are down more than 7%, applications for classics are down more than 8% and applications for non-European languages are down more than 21%. Britain has long had a world-class reputation for the humanities; why are this Government so determined to kill it off?
Mr Willetts
I am amazed that the hon. Gentleman could refer to an arrangement under which graduates pay for their higher education only if they are earning more than £21,000 a year as a regressive policy. It is a progressive and fair way of maintaining higher education. Because, unlike him, young people across the country understand that, we have had a very healthy level of applications to universities this year—down only 1% on last year’s peak.
Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)
What assessment has my right hon. Friend undertaken of the impact on admissions of university access agreements supervised, and indeed enforced, by the Office for Fair Access?
Mr Willetts
It is very encouraging that when we look behind the 1% fall in applications overall, it looks as though the fall in applications from prospective students in the most disadvantaged areas is actually only 0.2%. That tells us that the message is getting across, and I pay particular tribute to the efforts of my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) and the advice we have had from him, and to the work done by OFFA to get that crucial message across.
Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)
Higher education applications have collapsed. In teaching, we have a simple way of measuring whether children are learning by rote or are actually learning and understanding: we ask them what would happen next. When the Minister tripled tuition fees and abolished education maintenance allowances, what did he think was going to happen next?
Mr Willetts
I thank the hon. Lady for the advance notice of her question. Contrary to the stories of collapse and disaster, we believe that the fact that applications have fallen only by 1% is evidence that the message that students do not have to pay is getting across, and this summer I shall once more sadly be in the position of having to explain why young people applying to go to university do not have a place. In other words, we have succeeded in explaining the truth about our proposals, contrary to the misleading allegations of the Opposition.
Mr Speaker
I know that the Minister will not be suggesting that any Opposition Member has misled the House. I am sure he is referring to activity outside the House.
Mr Speaker
I am extremely grateful for that ministerial head-nod, if I can put it that way.
Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend the Minister join me in reassuring my constituents that, unlike the views of the Opposition, under our scheme a top-quality university degree will actually cost them only £30 a month when they are earning £25,000 a year?
Mr Willetts
I entirely agree. Indeed, that figure on earnings of £25,000 a year contrasts with payments of £75 a month under the arrangements we inherited from the Labour Government.
Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab)
17. What his policy is on responding to public interest declarations made to him or his Department.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey)
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State takes seriously any public interest declarations made to him. If a declaration alleges that a company is trading in a fraudulent manner, the Secretary of State can authorise an investigation into the affairs of that company, using powers under the Companies Acts. Such investigations are confidential and it is seldom possible to confirm or deny whether an investigation is in train, but if there is an enforcement action as a result of the investigation, that can be made public. My officials will of course be willing to take further details of the allegations.
Mr Raynsford
I am grateful to the Minister for his answer, and to the Secretary of State for the letter he sent me yesterday in response to my constituent’s public interest declaration. I cannot but note that it is only since the question appeared on the Order Paper that his Department appears to have been taking the matter seriously, because the declaration was made in mid-December. Given that it is a serious declaration, involving allegations of unethical and probably criminal behaviour by a significant company, will the Minister ensure that the investigation takes full and detailed evidence from my constituent?
Mr Davey
I am sorry that after the initial e-mail sent just before Christmas there was no substantive follow-up. I apologise to the right hon. Gentleman’s constituent, but the Secretary of State has now written to the right hon. Gentleman, as he acknowledged, and I confirm that officials of the Insolvency Service who exercise those powers will now make contact with his constituent as he has requested.
Gregg McClymont (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (Lab)
T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.
The Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Vince Cable)
My Department has a key role in supporting the rebalancing of the economy and business to deliver growth while increasing skills and learning.
Gregg McClymont
A moment ago, the Minister for Universities and Science referred to student loan repayments, which the right hon. Gentleman will know are deducted at source, which is more than can be said for the extraordinary contract awarded to Mr Ed Lester of the Student Loans Company. Will the Minister explain why he signed off those extraordinary tax avoidance arrangements?
The Minister for Universities and Science (Mr David Willetts)
Let me be absolutely clear that this arrangement is set out very clearly in the Student Loans Company annual accounts. If Labour Members had cared to study the report, they would have seen on page 42 a completely transparent account of the arrangements for Mr Ed Lester’s reimbursement. It is set out very clearly there. The payments are to the recruitment consultancy company that found him, and he was appointed on an interim basis to tackle a disaster in the SLC that we inherited from the Labour Government. We of course recognise the importance of ensuring that proper arrangements are in place and will continue to monitor the situation, but I can inform the House that we have agreed that, for the remainder of the chief executive’s contract, the SLC will account for PAYE and national insurance at source.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
T3. Last Sunday I attended Indian republic day at the Wellingborough Hindu Association, yet the same week we learn that a £20 billion fighter contract has been lost to, of all people, the French. We now know that the lead bidder was not the British Prime Minister or the British Government, but the Germans. What on earth do they know about cricket and curries? Why was the British Government not leading on that? How did the Secretary of State allow such a cock-up?
Vince Cable
As was explained earlier, the Prime Minister, the Trade and Investment Minister, I and others have made strong representations to the Indian Government on the merits of BAE Systems for this contract. The hon. Gentleman will know that the contract was narrowed down to two companies on the basis of quality. The Indian Government appear to have made a narrow decision based on price, but this is by no means the end of the process. BAE Systems will have plenty of opportunities to restate its case on quality and life-time costs and we shall reinforce it.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
The Secretary of State has leapt to the defence of the tax deal by which a public servant running the Student Loans Company avoids tax of £40,000 a year. It is a pity that the right hon. Gentleman is not as vigorous in defending the interests of small businesses when it comes to bank lending. Can he confirm, as the Minister implied earlier, that this arrangement will end immediately? Does he agree that when his Government say, “We’re all in this together”, they mean the tax avoiders and the excessively paid, not the people in businesses who desperately need support in order to get our economy working again?
Vince Cable
My colleague, the Minister for Universities and Science, has already given a very full answer on this issue. When I spoke about it earlier, I should have made it clear that Mr Lester had accepted a pay cut, not a tax cut. In addition, there will shortly be an urgent question on the matter, when any further details can be pursued. As for the wider policy questions, we made it very clear last week that we believe that our reforms of executive pay will radically reduce the rewards for failure and mediocrity in business.
Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)
T4. I welcome the Government’s plan to set up catapult centres. Will the Minister update the House on what progress has been made in setting these centres up?
Mr Willetts
Our proposals for launching the catapult centres are proceeding. We have already announced five technology and innovation centres across the country and will announce the remaining two soon.
Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)
T2. The Secretary of State is aware of the imminent closure of the Rio Tinto Alcan plant in my constituency. Rio Tinto Alcan said recently that it puts the blame firmly on the Government because of the lack of investment. The £250 million for energy-intensive industries is too little, too late, and there are also the green taxes. Would he care to comment on those allegations?
Vince Cable
Those were certainly not the allegations Rio Tinto Alcan made to me when I met representatives of the company. They made it clear that this was part of a global downsizing of their operations and that many countries are affected by it. I have visited the site and met the hon. Gentleman to discuss this. We are concerned about the future of the labour force, and we sought to help the company through the support for energy-intensive industries. Now that the company has decided to go ahead with closure, we will see what we can do to help the people in the area.
Tony Baldry (Banbury) (Con)
T7. What can the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills do to support the more than 1,500 community-led work clubs across the country to help young adults to recognise the apprenticeship opportunities that exist, ensure that further education colleges can provide training opportunities for those out of work, and link in the national careers service?
The Minister for Further Education, Skills and Lifelong Learning (Mr John Hayes)
I am delighted that my hon. Friend has raised that matter again, as he has done frequently. He has done much work in Banbury in this area. The important thing to do next is to match the businesses to the young people. We can do that by getting businesses into schools and by speed-dating—that is an exciting prospect, is it not, Mr Speaker? We must use all modern media to ensure that young people know about the jobs and opportunities that exist—where they are, what they are and how they can find them.
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
T5. Somethin’ Else is a design and creation company on Silicon roundabout in my constituency. It employs 65 people and recently produced a film that was shown at the Conservative party conference. Recently, it has been battling with Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs over disproportionate fines for the alleged late payment of tax. That has led to a fine of more than £25,000. Given HMRC’s deals with large corporations and the Government’s professed support for small businesses, which the Secretary of State has reiterated today, what discussions is the Department having with HMRC and the Treasury to ensure that businesses are aware that it is on their side and that the Government are acting in a joined-up fashion so that punitive tax attacks are not made on small businesses?
Mr Willetts
That is, of course, a matter for the Treasury. The Department is on the side of small businesses. I have visited that business in Tech City and was very impressed with what it does. Tech City, which had about 100 small businesses when the coalition came to office, now has more than 600 small businesses because of our commitment to the area.
George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)
T8. May I, on the eve of national apprenticeship week, congratulate the Minister and the Government on the steps they are taking to increase the number of apprenticeships? I invite him to support the Norfolk Way project, which is giving youngsters work experience and entrepreneurial mentoring. I also invite him to agree with the wonderful words of Galileo Galilei, “We cannot teach people things; we can only help them discover it within themselves.”
Mr Hayes
John Clare, who is greatly admired by my hon. Friend, said:
“The best way to avoid doing a bad action is by doing a good one”.
Of course, he ended his life near Norfolk. My hon. Friend understated his own involvement in the project that he mentioned; he launched it, but he was too modest to say so. It says here that the project is “determined to nurture the ambition of enterprising young people and to encourage a can-do attitude.” I cannot do better than that.
Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)
T6. The Government have been sending out mixed messages recently about the extent of their financial commitment to the proposed green investment bank. Will the Secretary of State confirm that the proposed public contribution will be £3 billion as promised and not up to £3 billion, and that the bank will assume its borrowing powers in 2015?
Vince Cable
I can confirm the first part of the hon. Gentleman’s question: the £3 billion is fully committed to and there are no mixed messages. On borrowing, it is not merely a question of the date, but of the fiscal position of the country.
Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)
T10. This week’s National Audit Office report on apprenticeships shows that for every pound of public money that is invested, there is a return of £18. Will my hon. Friend reassure us that he is taking all reasonable steps to continue the successful growth of apprenticeships?
Mr Hayes
My hon. Friend will know that the figures published this week show a record number of apprenticeships across the whole country, in all sectors and at all levels. What does the NAO report say? As my hon. Friend described, it shows a massive return on public investment. This is success by any measure. By the way—I did not want to emphasise this, Mr Speaker—it also states that our policy is far better managed than was Train to Gain by the previous Government.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
How hard did Ministers press the case for British business with their colleagues in the Ministry of Defence, who yesterday produced a written ministerial statement which said that the Government will no longer prioritise UK suppliers when purchasing defence equipment? That is another kick in the teeth for all of us who are fighting to prevent British BAE Systems jobs from being exported, at a cost of £100 million to British taxpayers.
Vince Cable
Of course we have discussed those issues extensively with the Ministry of Defence, and if the hon. Lady actually reads the statement, she will see that it is absolutely clear that in defence, as in other areas, public procurement will operate on a strategic, long-term basis, not as it did under the last Government when narrow contractual arrangements involved purchases off the peg.
Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con)
Will the Minister support me in establishing a pilot scheme on Wirral bringing female business role models into schools and thereby working towards the coalition’s intention of practical, real-life role models?
The Minister of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Mark Prisk)
I would be delighted to support that. It is an excellent idea and builds on the work that we are doing to recruit 5,000 new business mentors—real business women, helping those who want to start their own enterprise.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
What is the Secretary of State doing to stimulate growth in manufacturing industries, particularly the steel industry, which is so important to UK plc and my constituents?
Vince Cable
As the hon. Gentleman will know, because I have visited his constituency and discussed these issues with him, the steel industry is going through an extremely difficult time not just in the UK, and steel makers have made losses. We are helping them through energy-intensive support, and there are other forms of help such as the regional growth fund and enterprise zones. We are doing what we can to help steel areas that are affected by the current contraction.
Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West) (LD)
The one seemingly hopeful part of the Government’s otherwise dreadful response on pub companies was the unfortunately named PICAS—the pub independent conciliation and arbitration service. However, hope soon faded when it was revealed that it was to be pubco-funded, and this week it has been announced that it will be chaired by a Punch Taverns surveyor. Does the Minister think that licensees will want to use that supposedly independent body?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Mr Edward Davey)
I am afraid that as in a number of aspects of this debate, my hon. Friend does not reveal the full details. Rodger Vickers has been appointed with the unanimous support of the board of the pub independent rent review scheme, which includes two members of the Independent Pubs Confederation, the champion of licensees and tenants. I have made it clear to the independent chairman of PIRRS, Mr Brindley, that its efforts to appoint a vice-chair, again with high standing among the licensee community and close links to the IPC, should continue.
Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)
Will the Secretary of State clarify what is actually happening to the Typhoon contract? There was an implication that it could be renegotiated. If he fails to renegotiate it, will he blame the previous Government?
Vince Cable
There is no question of renegotiation. The Indians have had a pre-selection process, from which the French bid has gone ahead on the basis of price. There is a lot of experience of contracts being reconsidered at the final stage, and at that stage BAE Systems has a very good case to make as part of its consortium. We will support it thoroughly.
Simon Kirby (Brighton, Kemptown) (Con)
Although I understand that the Minister does not want to be unfair to other cities, does he agree that Brighton would make a fantastic choice of location for the green investment bank?
Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)
British Aerospace has a 17% global share, and as such is No. 1 in Europe, but its future depends on not only exports but on investment in research and development. Given that many other Governments in Europe and around the world give more support to research and development than we do, what more can the Government do to help in that vital area?
Mr Willetts
That is why the Government have provided cash protection and ring-fenced the science and research budget, and why in the autumn statement we were able to announce significant increases in funding for the Technology Strategy Board.
Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)
With no pressure from the Secretary of State for a cut in the jobs tax, no meaningful roll-back of job-destroying red tape, no pressure from him for a cut in enterprise-sapping tax rates and his lauding as a good example the pillorying of people for fulfilling their Government contract, can he advise me of what he is doing to encourage enterprise rather than to discourage it?
Vince Cable
I think my ministerial team have given an extremely good account of the many things that we are doing in that area, starting with an extraordinary cut in the amount of red tape, which I think is the issue that most concerns my hon. Friend.
Mr Speaker
Order. There is unsatisfied demand, as tends to be the case. I am sorry to disappoint colleagues, but we must now move on.
Tax Avoidance (Public Servants)
(12 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Urgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
Each Urgent Question requires a Government Minister to give a response on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Mr Nicholas Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne East) (Lab)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Chief Secretary to the Treasury if he will set out the Government’s policy on the operation of tax avoidance schemes in the civil service.
The Chief Secretary to the Treasury (Danny Alexander)
I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for giving me the opportunity to set out the answer to this question. As hon. Members might be aware, departmental public spending encompassing the appointment of senior civil servants is audited against the Treasury’s “Managing Public Money” guidance. That document makes it clear that
“public sector organisations should avoid using tax advisers or tax avoidance schemes as any apparent savings can only be made at the expense of other taxpayers or other parts of the public sector.”
There is no place for tax avoidance in Government.
A recent case has highlighted those issues, and although I cannot comment on the specifics of an individual’s tax affairs, for reasons of which the right hon. Gentleman will be fully aware, I want to take the opportunity to explain the action that I have taken.
As hon. Members are already aware, for senior civil service appointments whose salary exceeds £142,500, terms and conditions are negotiated by the appointing Department and are presented to me for approval of the salary. Those arrangements are in place to control excessive pay.
In the light of that recent case, I have asked the Treasury urgently to review the appropriateness of allowing public sector appointees to be paid through that mechanism—[Interruption.] I have also asked the Treasury Officer of Accounts—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. I granted this urgent question because I thought it warranted ministerial comment and scrutiny by the House. The House can rely upon me to ensure that there is plenty of time for Back Benchers, but as a matter of procedure, propriety and courtesy, we must hear what the Chief Secretary has to say, preferably without constant interruption and heckling.
Danny Alexander
I am grateful, Mr Speaker.
As I was saying, I have also asked the Treasury Officer of Accounts to write to all accounting officers across Whitehall to remind them that all appointments should, in line with existing guidance, consider the wider cost of lost revenue to the Exchequer when considering value for money.
Furthermore, I have requested that all Departments carry out an internal audit by the end of March. As my right hon. Friend the Minister for Universities and Science has said, the Student Loans Company will for the remainder of the contract in question change the arrangements and deduct tax and national insurance at source. Across Government, if any appointments that do not provide value for money are found, whether agreed by this Government or the previous one, I have urged Departments to seek to unwind them as quickly as possible and as quickly as is compatible with securing good value for public money.
At a time when we all have to pull in the same direction to tackle the country’s financial problems, it is essential we all pay our full and fair share. That is why I have taken this action to ensure that Government Departments do not support tax avoidance schemes.
Mr Brown
May I point out to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury that the chief executive of the Student Loans Company is the accounting officer? Perhaps the Chief Secretary can tell the House what sort of reply he expects from that accounting officer when he writes to him.
It is reassuring that the Chief Secretary told the House that national insurance and income tax will be paid in future, but the purpose of those arrangements was to avoid paying income tax and national insurance. When considering those arrangements, did he consider the demoralising and corrosive effect that such an arrangement must have on the rest of the public service? What fees are paid by the Department to the service company that is laundering that money? The loss is to the Exchequer and not to the Department’s budget, in which I would have thought the Chief Secretary would take an interest.
The Chief Secretary says—I support him in this—that he will now, belatedly but correctly, scope how many such arrangements there are in the public service. When his investigation is completed, will he put the facts—all of the facts—in front of the House of Commons? Given the controversial nature of those arrangements, will he tell the House whether the Cabinet Secretary approved them, and whether the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, which is the Department responsible for the Student Loans company, were explicitly aware of those arrangements and whether they explicitly agreed to them?
Danny Alexander
I am grateful for the right hon. Gentleman’s support for the action that I have taken in respect of this case. He is right that accounting officers of organisations are responsible for implementing the “Managing Public Money” guidance. That is why the Treasury Officer of Accounts is contacting all such officers within the Government as we speak. I look forward to seeing the responses, including from the range of individuals to whom he referred.
As I said in my response to the right hon. Gentleman’s original question, my responsibility in such matters is with regard to the salary level. In this case, I reduced the salary level and amount of expenses paid under the contract, the details of which were the responsibility of the Student Loans Company and the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. I was not made aware of any tax benefit to any individual as a result of this case, which is precisely why I have put in place the arrangements for the review that I have set out.
I can tell the right hon. Gentleman that I would of course want to update the House on the results of that review when it is completed, and I look forward to having a further opportunity to discuss the matter with him.
Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)
May I say how much I welcome the Chief Secretary’s urgent review? There has been too much of this going on; there was certainly a similar case involving the chief operating officer of the Rural Payments Agency, who was appointed in an interim way under the previous Government, which should not have happened. May I invite the Chief Secretary, in the spirit of the coalition, to say whether he agrees with the former leader of the Conservative party, Michael Howard, who is now in another place, when he said:
“Special rules for special…groups breed anger and division. They blur the distinction between right and wrong. And they give the impression that some people are above the law”?
Danny Alexander
I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s support for the action I have taken. I was not aware of the example he gave in relation to the Rural Payments Agency. Of course, if other such cases still exist in other parts of Government, that is something the review I have instituted will bring out. I do agree with the statement the hon. Gentleman read out, which is why the Government have taken a series of strong steps—much greater steps, frankly, than the previous Government—to deal with tax avoidance and make sure that everyone pays their proper amount of tax.
Margaret Hodge (Barking) (Lab)
I welcome the commitment that has been made to review the arrangements relating to this individual and to review whether such things happen anywhere else across Government. Will the Minister agree to publish the complete list of senior civil servants whom the Government pay through companies when he completes his review by the end of March? In particular, will he report to the House on the role of Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs in authorising the arrangement with this individual? Will he also report to the House on why the Cabinet Secretary appears to have authorised it? Will he ask officials about, and report to the House on, why a contribution to this particular individual’s pension was also agreed?
Danny Alexander
First, I am grateful for the right hon. Lady’s welcome for the action we are taking on this issue. As I said in answer to the original question, I will certainly make available to the House, and indeed to the Public Accounts Committee, if she is interested to follow the issue through that route, too, the results of the inquiry that we have set out and the information on the number of individuals—if there are any others—who are paid under similar arrangements. As I have also said, if there are such arrangements in other places, Departments have actively and urgently to consider unwinding them and making sure that proper arrangements are put in place so that people pay their full share of tax.
There will be opportunities for the right hon. Lady’s Committee to scrutinise the role of HMRC and the Cabinet Secretary in these issues, if it wishes to. It is a matter of public record that the Cabinet Secretary signed off these arrangements. The original arrangements were put in place before I was appointed Chief Secretary, but the salary was brought to me when the appointment was turned from an interim one into a temporary one for two years, which is what the arrangements now are. I am delighted that my right hon. Friend the Minister for Universities and Science has decided, through the Student Loans Company, to make sure that these arrangements apply no further in this case.
Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)
Will my hon. Friend confirm that the urgent review will also investigate the terms of appointments made by the previous Government?
Danny Alexander
Yes, I said that in answer to the original question. The cases that are brought to me are cases in which the level of pay is in excess of £142,500. Of course, the review will look not just at those cases, but, potentially, at the cases of people on lower salary levels. Appointments that are currently in operation may well have been put in place under the previous Government. I do not know that there are any; that is why I have instituted a review, and we will see in due course what that brings forward. As I say, I will be happy to share that information with the House.
Shabana Mahmood (Birmingham, Ladywood) (Lab)
The Government have a duty to ensure that everyone pays their faire share of taxes. They should be especially careful when making senior appointments themselves. At a time when the economy is flatlining, families are being squeezed and students are facing the tripling of tuition fees, the news that Ministers approved the contract of a senior official that allowed tax and national insurance to be avoided shows just how out of touch they are.
There are several important questions that the Chief Secretary must answer. When he approved the contract, did he ask about the tax and national insurance implications of employing Mr Lester on this basis? Did HMRC approve the arrangement after Mr Lester was appointed chief executive on a permanent basis, or only when he was the interim chief executive? Does the Chief Secretary know how much tax and national insurance has been avoided by these arrangements? Has he now withdrawn his approval of Mr Lester’s contract, and is it being redrawn? How many other senior appointments have the Government made on these terms? Surely the right hon. Gentleman will know how many he has signed off. If he does not know, is it not time that he started asking questions of his colleagues and defending the interests of taxpayers?
The Government’s handling of higher education has been disastrous. This week, we have heard that their tripling of fees and botched reforms have cut applications to university, and before Christmas the Public Accounts Committee criticised HMRC for its cosy relationship with big business. There will be great concern if it turns out that the Government have turned a blind eye to tax avoidance. I look forward to the Chief Secretary’s answers about what seems to be a Treasury-backed tax dodge, and to a full investigation into the facts of the case.
Danny Alexander
I agree with the hon. Lady’s first remarks: of course we have a duty to ensure that every individual pays their fair share of tax. That is why the Government have done much more to tackle tax avoidance than Labour ever did during its 13 years in office.
The hon. Lady asked some important questions. I was not made aware, when approving the salary level for this post, of any tax benefit to the individual concerned. As I said earlier, the initial interim arrangements were approved before my time as Chief Secretary. I was involved in the re-appointment. As far as I am aware, having looked through the cases, of the 180 appointments with salaries of more than £142,500 that I have approved as Chief Secretary, this is the only one to which such arrangements apply. That does not mean, however, that there are not similar existing arrangements for people appointed under the previous Government or for those with lower salary levels. That is why I have implemented the review that I have set out to the Chamber. I am sorry that she did not feel able to welcome that step. I would have thought that she would have. As I have said repeatedly, however, I will happily bring the information that we unearth back to the House.
Mr Speaker
Order. There is much interest in this subject, and if I am to accommodate it, brevity is required in both questions and answers.
Conor Burns (Bournemouth West) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend understand that those genuinely working on the front line in the public sector will find these revelations obscene? When his review is complete, will he be able to tell us when such practices first entered the public sector, and whether it was under this Government or the previous one?
Danny Alexander
I well understand why people would see it that way—frankly, I see it that way myself. It is interesting that already today we have heard one example, from my hon. Friend the Member for South Norfolk (Mr Bacon), who is a member of the PAC, of a similar arrangement made under the previous Government. Of course, the review will not look back on arrangements that have now been discontinued, but will look at those currently in existence in the public sector in order to ensure that everyone pays their fair share of tax. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Bournemouth West (Conor Burns) will strongly agree with that.
Mr Gareth Thomas (Harrow West) (Lab/Co-op)
In December, I tabled a round robin question to every Department asking whether senior staff in Departments, Executive agencies and non-departmental public bodies were
“paid by means of payments to a limited company”.
On 5 December, the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for Kingston and Surbiton (Mr Davey), who has responsibility for consumer affairs, replied on behalf of BIS:
“The Department's policy is that staff salaries are paid into employees’ bank accounts.”
He also wrote that
“there is no evidence that any senior civil servants in the Department for Business Innovation and Skills and its non-departmental public bodies are paid by means of payments to a limited company in lieu of a salary.”—[Official Report, 5 December 2011; Vol. 537, c. 152-3W.]
Why did they get it wrong, and why did I not get an answer from the chief executive of the Student Loans Company?
Danny Alexander
That answer described the arrangements as I understood them until I received information about this case in the past few days. The inquiry that I have put in place will reveal whether any more of these arrangements exist elsewhere in Government.
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
Does the Minister accept that, regardless of whether someone is employed in the public or private sector, tax avoidance—otherwise known as tax mitigation—is actually legal, whereas tax evasion is illegal?
Danny Alexander
Yes, the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right on the point of fact. It is fair to say that this Government have taken strong action to deal with both tax avoidance, where we wish to remove schemes that people use to minimise the amount of tax they pay, and tax evasion, which, as he says, is illegal. We announced an initial £900 million in the spending review for HMRC to invest for that purpose. As a result, we are, for example, quadrupling the number of court cases for tax evasion, to ensure that we make an example of people.
Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)
At this time of austerity, when the poor are being made to suffer for the behaviour of the rich, is the right hon. Gentleman ashamed that his Government have failed to do anything to stop such tax avoidance? What will he do to close that loophole across all taxpayers?
Danny Alexander
I think a better way to characterise what is going on in the economy at the moment is that the whole country is being made to pay for the mistakes made by the previous Government. I have already set out the action that we taking. An urgent review is taking place, both in Departments and through the Treasury, which I put in place because I take such matters incredibly seriously. That review is of a piece with the enormously wide range of action to tackle tax avoidance and tax evasion that has been put in place by this Government. As just one example, the high net worth individuals unit was not put in place by the previous Government until they had been in office for 12 years. That was 12 years of inaction on tax avoidance in that part of the population. Contrast that with the record of this Government and we see a coalition Government who view making sure that everyone pays their fair share of tax with the utmost seriousness.
Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con)
I think there is a word, Sir, for the mock indignation on the Opposition Benches, but as I was reprimanded for anti-parliamentary language previously, I will not say it today. Will my right hon. Friend please set out what specifically we are doing about tax avoidance in foreign domiciles, which is an equally important issue?
Mr Speaker
Order. I should just emphasise that the right hon. Gentleman will want to focus specifically on the terms of the urgent question, and I know that that is what he will do.
Danny Alexander
The question is a broad one about tax avoidance in Government. There are Government employees in other jurisdictions, and I am sure that the measures we have taken—for example, in relation to Switzerland and Lichtenstein, the non-dom levy that we have put in place, and so on—will ensure that any practices that might have been in place in the past no longer occur.
Simon Danczuk (Rochdale) (Lab)
My understanding is that a service company managed the arrangement for Mr Lester. Can the Minister tell the House what fees were paid to that company?
Danny Alexander
I cannot give a detailed answer about the fees paid to that company. My understanding of the arrangement that was in place is similar to that which the hon. Gentleman has described.
Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)
I know that the Chief Secretary well understands that there is a question of fairness at the heart of this issue for all public sector employees, so should we not either allow all employees of the Government the same advantages of tax efficiencies, if legal, or stamp out such practices altogether, right across the public sector?
Danny Alexander
I would not agree with the hon. Gentleman that such arrangements should be put in place for every public sector employee. The review that I have put in place is precisely designed to root out such arrangements across Government.
In answer to the earlier point, I gather that the fees that the hon. Member for Rochdale (Simon Danczuk) asked about are set out in the Student Loans Company annual report, which is available publicly, so he may wish to avail himself of a copy.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
We all know, if we are honest, that the administration of student loans had been a mess for years. However, the fact is that this man was appointed on a higher package of emoluments than the Prime Minister. Why was that?
Danny Alexander
What we had was a situation where, as the hon. Gentleman rightly says, for many years—including for many years under the previous Government —the Student Loans Company was in a mess. This man was brought in to run it, and in fairness I think it is widely agreed that he has done a good job of turning it around. In the context of this conversation, I hope that the hon. Gentleman would also recognise that.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
I do not think there is a problem with what was set up; the problem is that the Inland Revenue allowed it to happen. I do not understand how such a contract can be awarded to somebody working full time. Unless there was some agreement to the avoidance scheme by the Revenue, it is not the law that is wrong, but the interpretation by the Revenue.
Danny Alexander
It is precisely those sorts of issues that the review will seek to examine and properly understand, and I am sure that the Public Accounts Committee might wish to take an interest in that issue.
Mr Alan Campbell (Tynemouth) (Lab)
Will the urgent review extend to the top salaries of people employed in local government?
Danny Alexander
I have so far written to Cabinet colleagues for salaries in central Government, and the Treasury Officer of Accounts has written to accounting officers in central Government, but I will take that suggestion away and discuss with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government whether that particular extension would be appropriate.
Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)
The Chief Secretary has always been very robust in dealing with tax avoidance and tax evasion. May I seek an assurance that the Government’s policy will be what all those who have submitted their tax returns in the past few days want, namely to ensure that everybody in the public service, from the Cabinet Secretary downwards, and in local government service, pays normal tax like the rest of us, in a normal way, with no funny business on the side?
Danny Alexander
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right that we need to be robust about these matters. Frankly, I think this Government have been a great deal more robust on tax avoidance and tax evasion than our immediate predecessor. I certainly agree with the principle that he annunciates, which is that we need to ensure that everyone pays their fair share of tax and that arrangements are not put in place that are in breach of the guidelines that I set out earlier, which specifically say that arrangements to avoid tax for individuals should not be put in place.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
Can we really have any remedy to such scandalous devices without restitution? Will any review by Revenue and Customs have an eye to possible recovery?
Danny Alexander
As I said, the arrangement has been ended by the Student Loans Company in this case, as my right hon. Friend the Minister for Universities and Science has said. The review that I have undertaken is looking at the degree to which such practices are prevalent across the rest of Government. I have not given any consideration to the question of restitution, but I shall certainly do so in the light of the hon. Gentleman’s question.
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
Will the Chief Secretary confirm that his review will include all parts of the public sector, including, for example, the BBC, in which daily rates are quite prevalent?
Danny Alexander
The review that I have put in place covers all central Government Departments and their non-departmental public bodies. I will have to get back to the hon. Gentleman on whether that includes the BBC, but I can see the point he is making.
Mark Tami (Alyn and Deeside) (Lab)
What message does the Chief Secretary think this arrangement sends to ordinary taxpayers in the public sector?
Danny Alexander
I do not think it sends a very good message. That is why we have ended the arrangement and why I have put in place a review to ensure that any other such arrangements, put in place by either this Government or our predecessors, is unearthed and that appropriate action is taken.
Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con)
Bearing in mind that what has happened is, technically, entirely legal, as my hon. Friends have noted, and that this issue is a matter of what the Government feel is right in policy terms for Departments to do, can my right hon. Friend outline what safeguards, regulations or guidelines from the previous Government he has found in his early investigations that were designed to ensure that such practices do not happen in Departments?
Danny Alexander
There are strict guidelines from the Treasury that have been in place for some time, which are set out in the document “Managing Public Money”, the most recent edition of which was published in October 2007. I quoted the relevant section in my answer to the original question from the right hon. Member for Newcastle upon Tyne East (Mr Brown). The important thing is that Departments, and indeed accounting officers, understand that it is their responsibility to ensure that the rules for managing public money are followed in every case, and I regard it as my responsibility as Chief Secretary to ensure that they are.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
Clearly two Ministers were involved in the decision—the Minister for Universities and Science and the Chief Secretary—but so far the Chief Secretary has used practically every Murdoch excuse in the book: “I didn’t know the detail,” “Nobody showed me exactly what was going on,” and all the rest of it. Will he publish the precise documents that he and the Minister for Universities and Science signed off, so that the public can make a decision about whose responsibility it is?
Danny Alexander
The hon. Gentleman might not have caught up with this, but a great deal of information has already been released on this issue under the Freedom of Information Act, which is precisely how it has come to my attention and that of others. As I said, my role in such matters is to sign off the salary arrangements and ensure that they are appropriate, given the level of salary in place. As I said at Treasury questions a few days back, in the 83 cases in which I have been involved where a previous post holder has been in place, I have reduced the salary substantially in 45 cases and frozen it in a further 23.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
Although my right hon. Friend has already covered this matter to an extent, will he tell me what effective measures he inherited, and if they were inadequate, what action he took to put them right?
Danny Alexander
As I have said, the terms and conditions of appointments are negotiated by the appointing Department. I have a responsibility to control the salary levels in these sorts of cases, which I discharged in this case. I was not aware of any particular tax benefit to the individual involved. The arrangements in relation to tax avoidance and tax evasion that we inherited were not robust enough, and that is why we have taken significant steps to tighten them up, to ensure that we get the maximum amount of money from people across society. As several hon. Members have said, that is particularly important, given the difficult economic circumstances in which we find ourselves.
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
As my hon. Friend the Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant) has pointed out, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury has repeatedly denied knowledge of this arrangement, yet we know from “Newsnight” that the Minister for Universities and Science, the right hon. Member for Havant (Mr Willetts) signed off the deal. Will the Chief Secretary acknowledge corporate responsibility across Government and, despite all his protestations now, acknowledge that it was signed off by the Government?
Danny Alexander
As was revealed on “Newsnight”, and as I have said, a number of Departments were involved in this—the Cabinet Office, and so on. What I am trying to do now, through the review that I have put in place, is to ensure that these arrangements are not repeated in the future, and that any existing arrangements approved by this Government or the previous one are dealt with.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
Is not the root of this issue based in the complex tax structure that has grown up over the past 15 years or so? What reassurance can the Chief Secretary to the Treasury give the House that such issues will be rooted out during the tax simplification review?
Danny Alexander
My hon. Friend makes an important point. It is precisely the complexity of the tax system that creates some of the opportunities of which many people take advantage. That is why we have created the Office of Tax Simplification, which continually makes recommendations for ways in which we could simplify the tax system and tackle some of the avoidance schemes. The very complicated tax arrangements that we inherited are gradually being changed by this process, which is in the best interests of the country.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
Will the Chief Secretary to the Treasury be the first Minister to accept responsibility for the conduct of the coalition in creating an “ineptocracy” of greed?
Danny Alexander
I am not quite sure how that relates to the question on the Order Paper today. I do not accept that description of what the coalition is doing. We are cleaning up the terrible economic mess that we inherited from Labour, and we are doing so in a way that is fair and that asks those with broader shoulders to bear the greater share of the burden. Frankly, if the hon. Gentleman’s party had not made such a mess, the country would not be in this position.
Miss Anne McIntosh (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
Will the Chief Secretary to the Treasury extend his review to cover the culture of bonus payments that has built up? Is he aware, for example, that the chief executive officer of the Rural Payments Agency is being paid a bonus for the work that he did while presiding over the Child Support Agency? Will my right hon. Friend root out this culture of bonus payments for poor performance, when they are simply not warranted?
Danny Alexander
My hon. Friend has raised an important point, although it will not necessarily fall within the scope of the review, which will look at the specific arrangements that we are discussing. However, we have substantially reduced the bonus payments to many individuals and the total amounts available in Departments’ bonus pools. That is the right approach. Of course, we also need to ensure that good performance is properly recognised at all levels in the public sector, and that is what the arrangements that we have in place do.
Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)
Which Minister is going to carry the can for this mess?
Danny Alexander
Well, I am here answering questions about it, and that is appropriate, given that the question was a general one about tax avoidance, which I am very pleased to answer.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
I welcome the Chief Secretary to the Treasury’s announcement today, and the robust action that the Government are taking against tax evasion and tax avoidance everywhere. They are certainly doing more than the previous Government did. Will he extend his review to cover the extraordinary salaries paid by NHS trusts up and down the country?
Danny Alexander
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for welcoming the tough action that we have taken in this case. I have contacted the Secretary of State for Health and the accounting officer in the Department of Health to ask whether any such arrangements apply in the areas for which they are responsible.
Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab)
I welcome the review that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury has announced, but why did it not occur to him to launch such a review when he was asked to sign off this deal? Secondly, he said that he was not aware of the tax benefits to the individual involved, yet a BIS spokesman said last night:
“Details of the arrangement were transparent throughout”.
The right hon. Gentleman will presumably have received a submission from officials. Will he put that submission in the Library? At what point did the Minister for Universities and Science know about the tax benefits to the individual? Will all the submissions that the right hon. Gentleman received be put in the Library as well?
Danny Alexander
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for generously welcoming the steps that we have taken to deal with this issue. As I said in my statement, and in answer to several questions, I was not made aware of any tax benefit to any individual in this case. There is a great deal of information in the public domain that has been released under freedom of information, and I would urge him to study it.
Mr George Mudie (Leeds East) (Lab)
So, is the Chief Secretary to the Treasury actually telling the House that the information passed to him when clearing the arrangement did not include details relating to the unusual aspects of the case, and that they were withheld by the Minister for Universities and Science?
Danny Alexander
No, I am not saying that at all. What I am saying is that the arrangements were put in place by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. Terms and conditions of employment are a matter for individual Departments. My role is to sign off the salary level for appointments paying over £142,500. As I have said in answer to several questions, in this case we reduced the salary and the expenses payments. I think that that was an appropriate response to the information that I was provided with.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
Who signed off the tax avoidance measures in this deal?
Danny Alexander
I think the hon. Gentleman should be careful about how he characterises these arrangements, given that they are currently subject to a review.
Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab)
On a day when another 100 of my constituents have lost their jobs because of the failed economic policy of this Government, how does the Chief Secretary to the Treasury think those people will feel about the Government allowing tax dodges, and allowing Ministers to take no responsibility for their actions? When are the Government going to come clean?
Danny Alexander
I suspect that they will feel, as I do, that urgent action needs to be taken. We have changed the arrangements in this case, and the review will root out whether any other such arrangements were put in place either under this Government or when the hon. Gentleman’s party was in office. He should wait carefully for the results of the review.
Helen Jones (Warrington North) (Lab)
The Chief Secretary to the Treasury has still not answered the question, so I shall put it to him again. Which Minister or Ministers signed off this tax avoidance scheme, and on what date?
Danny Alexander
I have made clear the answer to that question throughout my statement. I am responsible for signing off the salary level for appointments over £142,500, and I discharged that responsibility in this case.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
Yesterday’s Financial Times reported: “Treasury beset by exodus of top staff”. Officials have also reported that the Treasury’s staff turnover rate is now “higher than McDonald’s”. Can the Chief Secretary to the Treasury ensure that there will be sufficient firepower at the Treasury to thoroughly scrutinise tax avoidance across Government, and did the Minister for Universities and Science, the right hon. Member for Havant (Mr Willetts) agree to this arrangement?
Danny Alexander
It is precisely for the reason that the hon. Gentleman suggests that, in the spending review, we announced an additional £900 million for Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs to enable it to focus attention specifically on tax avoidance and tax evasion. I very much hope that he welcomes that decision.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
Does the Chief Secretary to the Treasury regret not having asked more questions when he was asked to sign off this deal?
Danny Alexander
As I have said, I signed off the salary level for the appointment. I reduced it significantly, and reduced the expenses paid under the arrangement. As soon as the fact that there was a potential tax benefit to an individual was given to me, in the last few days, I took the action described, including writing round to Cabinet colleagues on Tuesday.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
Given that this is the Chief Secretary to the Treasury’s third and last chance, will he now tell us which Minister or Ministers signed off the tax arrangements on this deal?
Danny Alexander
I can tell the hon. Gentleman what I have said already. I signed off the salary level in this case. The terms and conditions of the appointment were put forward by the Student Loans Company in the Department for Business, and came to me for approval in the usual way, given the salary level that was being proposed.
Mr Speaker
Order. I am grateful to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, the Opposition Front-Bench team and the 34 right hon. and hon. Members who were able to question the Chief Secretary. [Interruption.] The hon. Member for St Helens North (Mr Watts) is thirsting to raise a point of order, but I am afraid he will have to wait until after business questions.
Business of the House
(12 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)
Will the Leader of the House please give us the business for next week?
The Leader of the House of Commons (Sir George Young)
The business commencing 6 February will be:
Monday 6 February—Second Reading of the Financial Services Bill.
Tuesday 7 February—Opposition day (un-allotted day) (half day). There will be a debate on responsibility and reform for British banks. This debate will arise on an Opposition motion. It will be followed by a motion relating to metal theft. The subject for this debate has been nominated by the Backbench Business Committee.
Wednesday 8 February—Motions relating to the police grant and local government finance reports.
Thursday 9 February—General debate on Somalia.
The provisional business for the week commencing 20 February will include:
Monday 20 February—A debate on Iran. The subject of this debate has been nominated by the Backbench Business Committee.
Ms Eagle
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his statement. I commended him last week for announcing three days of actual Government business. Clearly exhausted after their exertions, next week the Government are to manage only a paltry one day of legislative business.
A few weeks ago, when I asked the Leader of the House for the date of the Queen’s Speech, he promised it “in due course”. On Sunday, The Independent on Sunday announced that the Queen’s Speech was delayed because the Government needed “more time” to secure their legislation. Given the Government’s incompetent handling of the legislative programme, if we have to wait for them to get their act together, we will not have a Queen’s Speech this year at all. Government business managers might find a deadline helpful, so will the Leader of the House finally tell us the date of the Queen’s Speech?
May I suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that one way to end the legislative logjam and enable the Government to get around to having a Queen’s Speech this year would be to drop the Health and Social Care Bill? This week, the British Medical Journal, the Health Service Journal and Nursing Times called for the Bill to be dropped because the NHS was
“far too important to be left at the mercy of ideological and incompetent intervention”.
The Prime Minister has told Ministers that he wants “less and better legislation”, yet last night the Government put down another 136 amendments to the Health and Social Care Bill—adding to the 1,800 already tabled. Does the Prime Minister actually know what is going on with his own Health and Social Care Bill? Can the Leader of the House find time for a debate on the NHS to give the Prime Minister the opportunity to inform himself on what the Government are doing and to give the Health Secretary the opportunity to come to this House to announce that he has finally seen reason and will drop this disastrous Bill?
I note that the Prime Minister did not tell his Ministers that he wanted fairer legislation. Yesterday, the Government voted to cut support for disabled children; they voted to cut support for people recovering from cancer; and they voted for a crude cap that even the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government says will increase homelessness. Can the Leader of the House find time—again, he has plenty of it—for a debate on fairness? That would give Ministers the opportunity to explain why, when they are cutting support for those who have the least, all we have had from the Prime Minister about the excessive rewards for those who have the most is pointless press releases.
The Chancellor, who has not been seen at the Dispatch Box since mid-December, is fond of saying, “We’re all in this together.” Will the Leader of the House explain, then, how this Government can triple student fees, leading to an almost 10% drop in university applicants, at the same time as they sign off a tax dodge for the chief executive of the Student Loans Company, which saves him tens of thousands of pounds a year? Will the Leader of the House explain, since the Chief Secretary to the Treasury did not, how that can be fair? While he is at it, will he explain which Minister was aware of this issue and went ahead and approved it?
Will the Leader of the House explain how it is fair that the Government did nothing to stop the chief executive of RBS taking a £1 million bonus and why it took the threat of an Opposition motion to put a stop to it? What have the Government been doing? If the Leader of the House could find time for a debate on fairness, perhaps the Deputy Prime Minister could lead it. There has been no sign of him explaining in public why the Liberal Democrats did nothing to stop bankers awarding themselves multi-million pound bonuses, yet voted to cut support for those who have the least.
The Deputy Prime Minister did pop into the Chamber for the European statement earlier this week—at least he turned up for some of that one, although he was too busy sulking to turn up in December. On that occasion, the Prime Minister told this House there would be absolutely “no way” other European Governments would be allowed to use EU institutions to enforce a fiscal compact. He said “no way”, as he had vetoed it. This week, the Prime Minister slunk back to announce that EU institutions would be allowed to enforce it after all, but it was all right because he was going to be watching them “like a hawk”. Who is he kidding? The only thing the Prime Minister watches “like a hawk” is the news cycle. We have a veto that has been un-vetoed to a treaty that is not a treaty—it is like the mad hatter’s tea party.
Sir George Young
Three of this week’s four days have been on Government business, on Monday we have the Second Reading of the Financial Services Bill, and on Wednesday we will deal with the local government and police grant orders, without which no local authority will get its funding next year. I hope the hon. Lady agrees that that is important legislation. There is an Opposition debate on Tuesday—I hope she is not going to describe that as “thumb-twiddling”, as she said last week. Next Thursday we have an important debate on Somalia, which some Opposition Back Benchers have asked for. I hope she will not be so dismissive about the House of Commons programme.
As for the Queen’s Speech, the date will be announced in due course in the usual way—a response with which the hon. Lady may be becoming familiar. There is legislation still to get on to the statute book. On the one hand, she wonders why things are taking so long, but on the other hand I am constantly being asked for more time for debates. At some point, the shadow Leader of the House will have to work out whether the Government are pushing their programme through the House of Commons too fast or whether they are taking a leisurely time about it.
We have no plans to drop the Health and Social Care Bill. The principles of clinical-based commissioning, of patient choice and of any qualified provider as well as the linking of health and social care are important reforms. There will be an opportunity for further debate when the House returns.
We discussed the issue of fairness at some length yesterday. We are convinced that work must always pay more than benefits, which is at the heart of our welfare reform. We owe it to people who work hard, do the right thing and pay their taxes to make sure that there are some limits on welfare. Some families in Westminster receive £2,000 a week in housing benefit; I think that position is wholly unsustainable.
So far as the Chancellor of the Exchequer is concerned, I have announced a Second Reading on Monday of the Financial Services Bill; the hon. Lady may find that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is in the House for that. On student loans, we have just sat through 40 minutes of an urgent question, and I have nothing to add to what the Chief Secretary to the Treasury said.
As to bankers’ bonuses, the hon. Lady keeps on asking who signed off the contract with Mr Lester, but we know who signed off the contract for the bonus for Mr Hester at the Royal Bank of Scotland. There is no doubt that the Labour Government signed off that contract, which entitled him to the bonus. Since then, we have taken steps, which Labour never took, to cap bankers’ bonuses in cash. Last week, the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills announced new reforms to empower shareholders to control future pay.
Finally, the hon. Lady asked about the EU treaty. Perhaps at some point we could have an answer to the question of whether or not the Leader of the Opposition would have signed the proposed treaty.
Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)
We shall never know the true circumstances behind the murder of Avtar and Carole Kolar by, allegedly, the Lithuanian career criminal Rimvydas Liorancas, but we do know that he entered the United Kingdom without a passport. May we have an urgent debate on the sharing of criminal records data with law enforcement agencies throughout the European economic area, which would prevent such tragedies from ever happening again?
Sir George Young
I am sure that the House has sympathy for my hon. Friend’s constituents who were murdered. As for the Lithuanian, who I think has taken his own life, I understand that police inquiries are continuing, so it is difficult for me to comment specifically on the case. I will, however, raise the general issue of the sharing of information about criminals with the Home Secretary, and will ask her to write to my hon. Friend giving the details and specifying the concordats that have been entered into ensuring that relevant information is shared between countries.
Natascha Engel (North East Derbyshire) (Lab)
Obviously I do not want to sound dismissive, but despite the ample amount of time that has been available in the Chamber recently, the Government have chosen not to allocate it to Back Benchers, choosing instead to allocate it to general debates both today and next Thursday on subjects that they have chosen themselves. Meanwhile, Back Benchers have suggested to our Backbench Business Committee almost 20 debates on important matters such as assisted dying, the future of social care and the state of mental health services. I know that the Leader of the House is aware—because he himself has written to me about it—that there are three outstanding e-petitions which have secured 100,000 signatures. He has asked me to consider them for debate without giving me any time for them to be debated. Will he please stop bed blocking Back-Bench time, so that we can meet our basic commitments to Back Benchers and to e-petitioners?
Sir George Young
I commend what the hon. Lady said at the beginning of the Back-Bench debate on the European Council a week ago, when she made clear that responsibility for finding time for pre-European Council debates fell within the remit of her Committee, but of course the Government will do what they can to ensure that dates are available for such debates. She will have seen the recommendation in the Procedure Committee’s report that on Monday afternoons Westminster Hall should be used specifically for debates on e-petitions, with which I have some sympathy. The Government will respond in due course, and that will provide a partial solution to the issue that she has raised.
I am aware of the pressure on the hon. Lady’s Committee, and we will try to accommodate her with some extra time between now and the end of the Session. We are committed to providing 35 days in a Session; so far we have provided at least 49, and we hope to provide more. A number of days were provided before the Committee was set up, which were used for general debates. I sympathise with the hon. Lady over the problem that confronts her, and I will do what I can to help.
Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)
The wife of my constituent Mr Gordon Roberts has been placed in a home against the wishes of Mr Roberts. Sadly she suffers from dementia. May we have an urgent debate to consider the criteria according to which patients can be placed in homes against the wishes of their next of kin?
Sir George Young
I am sorry to hear about what has happened to my hon. Friend’s constituent. He will know that, under social care legislation, relatives of an individual such as his constituent have a right to be consulted before any package is put in place, and that that entitlement is accompanied by certain other rights. I will raise the matter with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health to see whether any intervention is possible, but in this particular case much will depend on the role of the local authority, and on who was responsible for making the final decision to place the wife of my hon. Friend’s constituent in a home.
Mr Tom Watson (West Bromwich East) (Lab)
A debate on the future of the Freedom of Information Act would allow us to test the use of private e-mails by Ministers. I fear that my constituents are losing out because Sandwell council may not have been able to test the validity of the decision to cut the Building Schools for the Future programme from £120 million to zero. However, there is a way of getting round that, which is for the Secretary of State for Education to publish all the private e-mails relating to Building Schools for the Future that he has exchanged with his special adviser Dominic Cummings and the civil servant Ms Narozanski.
Sir George Young
The freedom of information legislation is on the statute book. I advise the hon. Gentleman to take the action that is available to him through the process of appeal against decisions if he is unhappy with some of those decisions, and has not obtained information that he wants.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
Every day about 75 people in Yorkshire and the Humber are diagnosed with cancer, but at the same time great work is being done in our area in the form of medical research and work on improving training techniques for surgery. I have seen that work being done at the Leeds cancer research centre, which is a partnership between the NHS, the voluntary sector and Leeds university. May we please have a debate on medical research and all that the Government are doing to support it?
Sir George Young
I should welcome such a debate. Within the budget of the Department of Health, research is a priority. As for the specific issue of cancer, we have created a £200 million a year cancer drugs fund to help cancer patients gain more access to the life-extending drugs that they need, which has financed more than 10,000 treatments. I know that my hon. Friend will welcome that.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
Will the Leader of the House arrange a debate on dignity at work in Parliament? Last night I was disturbed to learn that the guest beer in the Strangers Bar is called Top Totty, and that there is a picture of a nearly naked woman on the tap. As well as arranging a debate, will the Leader of the House join me in asking for that beer to be withdrawn from the bar immediately?
Sir George Young
I was not aware of that particular picture in the bar. I will raise the matter with the appropriate Officer of the House through the House of Commons Commission, and I am sure that appropriate action will be taken. I should very much regret it if any offensive pictures were on display in any part of the House.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
May we have an urgent debate on Sudan? Will the Leader of the House join me in calling on the Governments of North and South Sudan successfully to conclude the talks in Addis Ababa today on the outstanding issues of the border, the sharing of oil transit costs, and the stopping of the funding by the north of militia in the south?
Sir George Young
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising the important issues that confront those who live in Sudan. I cannot promise an early debate, but he might like to apply to you, Mr Speaker, for an Adjournment debate, or apply for a debate in Westminster Hall, so that those important issues can be ventilated.
Mr Tom Harris (Glasgow South) (Lab)
May I draw the attention of the Leader of the House to early-day motion 2681?
[That this House notes that Network Rail has been found by the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) to be in breach of its licence and that, according to the ORR, ‘major asset failures, congested routes and poor management of track condition' contributed to poor performance of the UK rail network in 2011; welcomes the statement by the Secretary of State for Transport reported in The Daily Telegraph on 19 December 2011, that ‘Passengers would be extremely surprised if Network Rail attempted to award bonuses next year in the light of this action by the ORR'; further notes that Network Rail members, at their meeting on 10 February, are to be asked to confirm annual bonuses for directors equivalent to 60 per cent. of their annual salary, resulting in a 340,000 bonus for its chief executive; and calls on the company's directors to reject these bonuses.]
The motion urges Network Rail directors to reject their six-figure annual bonuses this year on the basis that they do not deserve them. Will the Leader of the House invite the Secretary of State for Transport to come to the House and confirm that she stands by what she said last year, namely that
“Passengers would be extremely surprised if Network Rail attempted to award bonuses next year”?
Sir George Young
The hon. Gentleman’s question is very timely, because later today there will be a debate on Network Rail in Westminster Hall. It would be entirely appropriate for him to stay in the Palace of Westminster a little longer so that he can raise those issues again this afternoon, when he will receive a full reply from the relevant Minister.
Mr Edward Timpson (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con)
Members may be aware that Nantwich, in my constituency, plays host to the world’s largest cheese fair, which showcases outstanding local produce including the unbeatable Cheshire cheese. Will the Leader of the House find time for a debate on promoting local British produce, so that we can discuss how to stretch the consumer audience as far and as wide as possible?
Sir George Young
My hon. Friend may have sparked a bidding war to establish which Member of Parliament has the finest cheese in his or her constituency. [Interruption.] I can hear that the bidding war has already begun. I welcome what my hon. Friend has said. I cannot find time for an early debate, but he has drawn attention to the wide range of cheeses that are available in this country and available for export, and I commend what he has done to promote that fine product.
Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)
Two weeks ago I took the opportunity to alert the House to the plight of Darlington football club. I know that the House will be pleased to learn that the club is still alive, thanks entirely to the efforts of the fans and a very sympathetic administrator, Harvey Madden. When I alerted the House two weeks ago, the Leader of the House very kindly, and somewhat to my surprise, said that he would look into how the Government might be able to help, and would speak to colleagues. Will he let us know how he has got on?
Sir George Young
I commend the hon. Lady’s work on protecting the interests of her football club. Following our exchange a fortnight ago, I wrote to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Culture, Olympics, Media and Sport, and I will find out what action he took as a result of my representations.
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
Following an announcement made some 18 months ago, 170 of my constituents are to be made redundant later this year as a consequence of the decision to transfer the functions of the General Social Care Council, based in Rugby, to the Health Professions Council, based in London. Given that office accommodation costs and the cost of employing people are lower in the regions than in the capital, may we have a debate about the Government’s strategy for the location of Departments and regulatory bodies?
Sir George Young
My hon. Friend raises a serious issue, and I was sorry to hear about the loss of jobs in his constituency. Of course I will raise the matter with the appropriate Minister. As my hon. Friend will know, the Government have had to take some difficult decisions on public sector manpower that involve some rationalisation, but I will certainly see that his point about the relative costs in the regions are taken on board as we come to make these difficult decisions.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
May I press the Leader of the House on the absolute bombshell for British manufacturing industry that we may not get the Eurofighter contract with India? Is it not about time that the House showed our constituents that we care about the manufacturing sector by having an urgent debate on the subject? Will he use his good offices to send Lord Bhattacharyya to India to try to sort this out for us?
Sir George Young
There was an exchange on the subject during Business, Innovation and Skills questions; I am not sure whether the hon. Gentleman was here.
Sir George Young
The hon. Gentleman will have heard the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills say that we are disappointed that at this stage we are No. 2, rather than No. 1, but that there remain opportunities to try to secure the contract. We believe that the Eurofighter Typhoon offered the most comprehensive offer on technology transfer, industrial participation, and security of supply.
I now have in front of me a letter dated 26 January to the hon. Member for Darlington (Mrs Chapman), setting out the action that is being taken as a result of the representations she made two weeks ago.
Mr Speaker
Well, that is helpful up to a point, but it is a bit of a tease from the Leader of the House. It is like saying, “I know a good joke, but I won’t tell it to you.” The hon. Member for Darlington (Mrs Chapman) is probably itching to learn the contents of said letter.
Sir George Young
It is a letter to the hon. Member for Darlington, dated 26 January, that I hope is in her hands.
Mr Speaker
We are all better informed. It is not clear whether the hon. Lady has yet received or read the letter; it seems as though she is not in receipt of it and has not read it, but there we go.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
There are two great mysteries in my constituency. First, do we have a giant cat with yellow eyes in Woodchester? Secondly, why are Gloucestershire’s schools suffering so badly under section 251 in the allocation of administrative grants and moving on to become academies? I would like a debate on the cat and school funding, but particularly on school funding, because the subject is important, and we need to encourage the academy programme.
Sir George Young
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I think that I am right in saying that he has raised the issue with me before. There is a problem in his county about the way in which the so-called LACSEG—local authority central spend equivalent grant—formula works. His academies get the same per-pupil funding as local education authority schools, but the funds that the local authority used to dispense are dispensed to the academies in a formula that has disadvantaged his county. He will be pleased to know that there is a review to see whether we can move to a fairer system of funding. I hope that his county will find that that is an answer to the problem that he raises.
Jim Fitzpatrick (Poplar and Limehouse) (Lab)
I have just come from a meeting with News International in Wapping in my constituency, during which I took the opportunity to congratulate it on today’s issue of The Times, which launches a campaign for safer cycling. Given the Leader of the House’s personal interest in the subject, will he advise me on whether there will be a statement from the Department for Transport, or a debate on cycling safety and the campaign, in the near future?
Sir George Young
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising the subject, and to The Times both for the front-page spread and the profile it is giving to making cycling safer, not just in London but everywhere. Along with many other Members, I bicycled into the House today. I know that the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, my hon. Friend the Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), takes cycling seriously. I would welcome a debate in which we could set out some of the steps that we have taken to promote cycling. I went on a trip with the all-party cycling group to Holland, where the lesson was that there is safety in numbers. When there are more cyclists, the terms of trade with the motorist begin to change, and cycling becomes safer. I welcome some of the steps that have been taken to promote cycling, as that will in turn change the terms of trade and make it a safer mode of transport.
Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)
May we have a debate on how we can expand the fantastic network of university technical colleges across our country? Early results are impressive; they represent real poverty-busting, enterprise-enhancing change in our country. I have one in my constituency, but I would like all colleagues to have one for the benefit of all our constituents.
Sir George Young
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. I know that he has in his constituency a UTC that was approved in October last year by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education. We are committed to putting in place at least 24 of them across the country over this Parliament. Two have already opened and 17 are on the way. We will make announcements in the summer about where the UTCs will be based. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for the support he has given, and for raising the profile of UTCs, which have an important part to play in higher education.
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
I was surprised to read a story in yesterday’s Financial Times, quoting liberally the Minister with responsibility for defence procurement, on a new Government policy of procuring defence equipment from overseas companies as well as British companies. I was particularly surprised when I turned up at the House to find that no oral statement to the House was planned, and that the statement being released was only a paper one. Either this is another instance of unilateral action by a Minister, in which case I hope the Leader of the House will take the issue up on behalf of the whole House, or the Government are changing the rules of engagement, and have decided to allow Ministers to announce major policy in the newspapers before they tell the House, in which case may we have a debate on the matter?
Sir George Young
I understand the hon. Lady’s concern. I think it was entirely appropriate for the information to be placed before the House in a written ministerial statement. There are plenty of precedents for such important announcements being made in a WMS. If she looks at the business before the House yesterday, she will see that it was a serious debate on welfare reform. I am not sure that the House would have welcomed the Government injecting an oral statement, and so taking away from the House some of the time for debate.
David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)
In his autumn statement, the Chancellor announced £30 billion-worth of capital projects as part of the rebooting of the economy. A recent Institute for Public Policy Research report stated that 84% of the projects are in London and the south-east—a spend of £2,700 per head in London, £134 a head in the north-west, and £5 a head in the north-east. May we have a debate or discussion on how we can get capital spending better aligned in the regions?
Sir George Young
I understand my hon. Friend’s concern. We developed the regional growth fund precisely to help regions such as those that he mentioned, and to move the centre of gravity, so far as one can, away from London and the south-east. He will know that we have introduced enterprise zones to encourage business investment in the north-east and north-west, which benefit from allowances not available elsewhere. There are also allowances available to new companies that locate outside London and the south-east, so we are doing what we can to promote a sensible regional policy to help regions such as that represented by my hon. Friend.
Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab)
At a meeting of the Select Committee on Education earlier this week, the Secretary of State three times refused to answer my question about whether personal e-mails have been used to avoid scrutiny of information that should be available under the Freedom of Information Act. He was unable to clarify whether any steps were being taken to prevent deletion of e-mails that contained important information that should be in the public domain. Given how potentially serious that is, will the Leader of the House ensure that time is allowed for Members to seek definitive answers to these important and incredibly urgent questions?
Sir George Young
If my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education was unable to give an answer when asked the question three times, I hope that the hon. Lady will understand if I do not give an answer now, but I will raise the matter with my right hon. Friend to see whether he can add to what he said to the Education Committee. I shall also put to him the specific question that the hon. Lady asks about the deletion of e-mails, and ask him to write to her.
Mark Menzies (Fylde) (Con)
Warton in my constituency is proud to be the home of the Eurofighter Typhoon and the thousands of jobs associated with it. Will the Leader of the House give us some time to debate the Indian order, some of the decisions behind it, and what more the Government can do, even at this late stage, to secure that order for the UK?
Sir George Young
I understand the concern of my hon. Friend’s constituents at the Indian Government’s decision to back the Rafale rather than the Eurofighter Typhoon. During an exchange at BIS questions, the Secretary of State outlined the action still open to this Government and this country to try to secure the order. I cannot promise an immediate debate, but my hon. Friend might like to apply to you, Mr Speaker, for an Adjournment debate or a debate in Westminster Hall.
Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)
International women’s day will be celebrated worldwide on 8 March. The theme this year is connecting girls, inspiring futures, which is timely at a time of such austerity. It would be a travesty if there were not a debate in this House, the mother of all Parliaments, on 8 March. Will the Leader of the House help to ensure that a debate takes place, in the main Chamber, on international women’s day?
Sir George Young
Last year, there was a debate, rightly, on international women’s day in the Chamber. As she will know, responsibility for finding time for international women’s day is specifically mentioned in, I think, paragraph 145 of the Wright Committee report. I will seek to make available to the Backbench Business Committee a day on or around that specific day, so it has the opportunity to fulfil the hon. Lady’s request.
Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con)
HealthEast is the GP-led commissioning pathfinder group that covers Great Yarmouth and, indeed, Waveney. May we have a statement on the progress of GP commissioning pathfinder groups across the country, given that, like HealthEast, many are enthusiastic about the programme and want to get on with the work, in order that local decisions can be made by local medical experts, rather than by central diktat in the NHS?
Sir George Young
There will be an opportunity to consider this issue when the Health and Social Care Bill returns, but my hon. Friend makes a good point: many GPs step forward to act as volunteers for the clinical commissioning groups. It seems there is a broader appetite in the country for these reforms than the impression sometimes given by the leaders of such bodies. My hon. Friend will have seen that the heads of more than 50 new doctors groups have argued that the BMA’s policy of blanket opposition fails to represent their views. I am grateful to him for making that point.
Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)
Does the Leader of the House agree that Select Committees, particularly the long-standing Public Accounts Committee, are crucial to our parliamentary system? If so, was he as concerned and alarmed as I was to see the article by Sue Cameron in today’s edition of The Daily Telegraph stating that the outgoing head of the civil service, Sir Gus O’Donnell, who staggered out the door under the weight of his pay-off and his pension, had written to the Chairman of the PAC complaining about the robust questioning of senior civil servants? Is that not an outrageous challenge to the rights of Parliament, and may we have a debate in which we can remind these arrogant mandarins that they are supposed to be civil servants, not uncivil autocrats?
Sir George Young
It so happens that I have read Sue Cameron’s article in The Daily Telegraph, concerning the alleged letter written by Sir Gus O’Donnell to the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee. [Hon. Members: “Alleged?”] I have not seen the letter. The right hon. Gentleman raises a serious point, and of course the PAC is one of the most important Select Committees in the House. As I understand it, it will be up to the PAC to decide how it wants to respond to that letter, and it may want to make a report to the House, to which the Government would respond. That is the appropriate way to take the issue forward.
Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan) (Con)
The UK Government have prioritised health reform and committed to increasing spending, while devolving decision making to clinicians at local level and making it more accountable. Sadly, my constituents do not benefit from such changes. May we have a general debate on health care, so we can compare and contrast the different forms of health care provision within the UK and expose the fact that Labour is the only party in government in the UK that is cutting the health service?
Sir George Young
I am sorry that my hon. Friend’s constituents do not benefit from some of the reforms that will be the subject for debate when the Health and Social Care Bill comes back. He rightly points out that the Department of Health is allocating an extra £12 billion over the spending review period for investment in the NHS—spending the NHS would not have got, had the Opposition been returned to government.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
Some weeks ago, the Leader of the House promised me in this Chamber that we would have adequate time to consider the Welfare Reform Bill on receipt of the Lords amendments. Given the very short time we had yesterday, we could not divide on the programme motion, as we wanted to protect precious time for debate. The Minister of State hogged the Dispatch Box for some 45 minutes during consideration of the third group of amendments. One of the amendments that was then accepted, because it could not be put to a Division, hollowed out the Child Poverty Act 2010, which was supported by all parties in this House in the last Parliament. Will the Leader of the House ensure that the House can reconsider the matter, so that we do not end up telling the public that we inadvertently deleted a key field in that important Act, which was passed in the last Parliament?
Sir George Young
I understand the hon. Gentleman’s concern. The question whether any further debate is held on the Bill depends on another place, to which it has now been returned, amended. I did announce last Thursday one day’s debate on the Welfare Reform Bill. No official representations were made against what I had planned, and there was no Division yesterday on the programme motion. There were three separate debates yesterday, every single Lords amendment was considered, and we had already had some two days on Report, so it was not as if the House was addressing these issues for the first time. My view is that, in the context of Commons’ consideration of Lords amendments of other Bills, a one day debate was adequate, and that its structure enabled debates to take place on all the important Lords amendments.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
I agree with the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan). If the House had divided on the programme motion, I would have voted against it—the House’s view on it should have been tested. However, I am afraid that the official Opposition did not seek to divide the House, so the Leader of the House cannot be blamed. That said, I hope he will consider such issues in future, because that is what was wrong with the previous Government: they did not give enough time for proper consideration of Bills. Although I support the welfare reform legislation, we should have had more time to discuss it.
Sir George Young
My hon. Friend has consistently argued for more time for debate. I am not sure whether he was in the House for last Thursday’s business questions, when I announced the provision of a one-day debate. That would have been his opportunity to make the point he has just made, which is sadly one day too late.
Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)
The Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting is due to take place in Sri Lanka in December of next year. Given that President Rajapaksa is turning that country into a kleptocracy, that term limits on the presidency have been abolished—turning that country, potentially, into a dictatorship—and that there has been no adequate response to the UN Secretary-General’s commissioner for human rights, does the Head of our Government believe that it is still appropriate to hold the CHOGM there, and will the Queen attend?
Sir George Young
The hon. Gentleman asks some good questions, and it sounds as if we have some time to reflect. If the CHOGM is taking place in December next year, we have adequate time, but I will certainly convey his concern to the Foreign Secretary. I expect that the decision on the location of this conference is one not for the UK Government but for the Commonwealth as a whole. However, as I said, I will pass on his concerns to the Foreign Secretary and ask him to write to the hon. Gentleman.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
My right hon. Friend will be aware of the recent leaked NATO report suggesting that the Taliban insurgency will not be beaten and that the Taliban have widespread support among local residents, despite NATO’s public claims to the contrary on both counts. Given the report’s credibility, is this not the right occasion for the Government to make a statement?
Sir George Young
The Government do not normally comment on leaked reports, but my hon. Friend will know that the Government make regular quarterly statements on Afghanistan. I anticipate that my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary will make such a statement to the House very shortly, when my hon. Friend will have an opportunity to put to him the questions about this report.
Jim Sheridan (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) (Lab)
The Leader of the House will be aware that the Government failed to convince the majority of Members in the other place of many aspects of the Welfare Reform Bill. Against that background, will he use his good offices to clarify reports that the Government intend to appoint to the other place a number of peers equivalent to the number of elected MPs in this place?
Sir George Young
That sounds an ambitious target. The question of the appointment of peers to another place is way above my pay grade, but I suggest that the hon. Gentleman should not believe absolutely everything he reads in the press.
Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)
Caring is a noble vocation but there are too few opportunities for training. May we have a debate on the establishment of carers’ academies, such as the one proposed in South Staffordshire at Rodbaston, to be run between the college there and South Staffordshire housing association?
Sir George Young
My hon. Friend makes a good point. We want to raise the qualifications of those who are caring and he might have seen a number of recent instances of bad quality care and untrained practitioners. I would welcome the initiative he has just mentioned. I will mention it to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health—and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, if it is an academy—and see whether we can make progress down that path.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
This year the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency received more than 1 million requests just from car park operators for individuals’ vehicle registration information. Invariably, penalty notices followed. May we have a debate to review the measures the Government can take to protect motorists so that they are not fleeced by car park operators aiming to boost income through hefty fines?
Sir George Young
The hon. Gentleman raises a good point because later this year it will be illegal to clamp on private property, so the emphasis might move on to the collection of fines for parking on such property. I will raise the matter with the Secretary of State for Transport and see whether any additional measures are necessary to protect innocent motorists from being harassed by such companies.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
On 16 January, in Education oral questions, the Secretary of State was unable to reassure the House that he or his special advisors had not
“deliberately destroyed or deleted e-mails relating to Government business that he has sent or received through private e-mail accounts”. —[Official Report, 16 January 2012; Vol. 538, c. 467.]
May we have a debate on that issue, which other hon. Members have raised and which is beginning to have the whiff of a cover-up about it?
Sir George Young
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, who raises a similar issue to that raised by his hon. Friend the Member for Wigan (Lisa Nandy). I have already undertaken to raise the matter with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and I shall ensure that the hon. Gentleman is copied in to the letter that will be on its way.
Mr Jim Cunningham (Coventry South) (Lab)
When will we get the Secretary of State for Education’s promised statement on the capital programme for schools? In the past, Ministers have made promises to visit schools in Coventry but they have not materialised. We have schools that are falling down and badly need a rebuild. The midlands in general badly needs those capital programmes, which could revamp the west midlands economy. When are the Government going to do something about it and when will we get that statement?
Sir George Young
As the hon. Gentleman will know, when we came into government we sought better value from the capital programme for schools and we brought to a halt a rather extravagant programme that we had inherited and introduced one that gives much better value for money. I shall raise the concerns with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education and ask him either to visit Coventry or to write to the hon. Gentleman to set out our programme for investment in that city.
Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)
May we have a debate on what safeguards there are to protect people studying for qualifications when their privately run providers go into liquidation? I met a constituent on Friday who had paid a substantial sum to obtain a plumbing and gas qualification from BTSC Europe—Building Trade Skills Centres Europe—which had styled itself as the largest such provider in Europe and even had the Prime Minister come and open its premises in Trafford park. My constituent has been left high and dry with no qualification and with debt now that that company has gone into liquidation. It seems another example of people who work hard and play by the rules being the ones who are punished when we as a state should protect them.
Sir George Young
It sounds as though the hon. Gentleman could have raised that issue in BIS questions, when the Minister for consumer affairs and others were in the Chamber. I am sorry to hear about the hon. Gentleman’s constituent. I shall raise the matter with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and see whether there is any action that we can take to get redress.
Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)
May I associate myself entirely with the comments made by my hon. Friend the Chair of the Backbench Business Committee on the question of time? It is becoming rather difficult to manage the business proposed to us by hon. Members. At the Select Committee on Education on Tuesday, the Secretary of State asserted that he had received what seemed to be conflicting advice from officials about the use of private e-mail accounts for official business. He also told us that he chose to follow the advice that he had received from the Cabinet Office. Will the Leader of the House arrange for the publication of the advice the Secretary of State received from the Cabinet Office and have it placed in the Library? Will he also arrange for a statement to clarify what advice is given to Ministers on such issues?
Sir George Young
The hon. Gentleman will know that advice from civil servants to Ministers is not normally published, but he raises an issue that has been raised by some of his hon. Friends. I have got the message: they want some response from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I shall do what I can to secure that.
Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab)
We already know that the Ministry of Defence will no longer support British industry and jobs. This week, Merseyside police authority decided to purchase a fleet of cars with no manufacturing base in the UK. May we have a debate on whether the Government and public services overall need to do a lot more to support British industry and jobs?
Sir George Young
There will be a debate on the police grant next Wednesday. The hon. Gentleman will know that it is not the Government but the police authority that purchases police cars in his constituency. He will have an opportunity to raise the issue on Wednesday and I shall ensure that the Minister replying to the debate knows that the matter will be raised by the hon. Gentleman.
Mr Denis MacShane (Rotherham) (Lab)
I do not know whether you, Mr Speaker, or the Leader of the House have read the article in today’s The Guardian by Professor Roy Greenslade on the continuing refusal of the Information Commissioner, Christopher Graham, to give the names of the 15,000 victims of data mining and illegal data trawling carried out for newspapers by Mr Steve Whittamore. I raised this absolutely astonishing question last week. May we have a debate on it? Perhaps you are among those people, Mr Speaker, because in those days the media were always ganging up on you. We need a debate on the Information Commissioner’s denial to the British people. He has given those names to the media and the police, but not to the victims. It is outrageous.
Sir George Young
I have to repeat what I told the right hon. Gentleman last week: it would be quite wrong for the Government to overrule the Information Commissioner. There is a process of appeal if the right hon. Gentleman is dissatisfied with the commissioner’s decision, and that is the line he should follow rather than asking me about it week after week.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
The Government’s written ministerial statement, published yesterday by the Ministry of Defence, sets out a worrying path on defence procurement that will be to the detriment of British manufacturing jobs. May we have an urgent debate on that in Government time? Secondly, if time was short yesterday, why could not the Minister come and make the statement today so that we could question him on his policy?
Sir George Young
My hon. Friend the Minister made the statement yesterday by means of a written ministerial statement. I have looked at it and I see no evidence to support what the hon. Lady has just said about it being bad news for UK industry. On the contrary, much of what he has proposed will benefit UK industry. For example, purchasing off-the-shelf rather than individually specified equipment is of great advantage to British manufacturers who already have a number of products in that range.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
Tragically, it now requires 24 early-day motions to list the names of those brave soldiers who have fallen in Afghanistan as a result of decisions taken in this House. As the aims of the war become increasingly meaningless, may we debate early-day motion 2673 so that we can record our gratitude for the sacrifices of the fallen and avoid our military leaders being faced with the terrible question that John Kerry asked himself at the end of the Vietnam war: “Who will be the last soldier I will order into battle to die for a politician’s mistake?”
[That this House salutes the bravery of the armed forces serving in Afghanistan and records with sorrow the deaths of Lance Corporal Kyle Cleet Marshall, from 2nd Battalion The Parachute Regiment, aged 23 from Newcastle, Private Lewis Hendry, 3rd Battalion The Parachute Regiment, aged 20 from Norwich, Private Conrad Lewis, 4th Battalion The Parachute Regiment, aged 22 from Bournemouth, Warrant Officer Class 2 (Company Sergeant Major) Colin Beckett, 3rd Battalion The Parachute Regiment, aged 36 from Peterborough, Ranger David Dalzell, 1st Battalion, The Royal Irish Regiment, aged 20 from Bangor in County Down, Private Martin Simon George Bell, 2nd Battalion The Parachute Regiment, aged 24 from Bradford, Private Joseva Saqanagonedau Vatubua, 5th Battalion The Royal Regiment of Scotland, aged 24 from Suva, Fiji, Warrant Officer Class 2 Charles Henry Wood from 23 Pioneer Regiment Royal Logistic Corps, serving with the Counter-Improvised Explosive Device Task Force, aged 34 from Middlesbrough, Corporal Steven Thomas Dunn from 216 (Parachute) Signal Squadron, attached to 2nd Battalion the Parachute Regiment Battlegroup, aged 27 from Gateshead and Private John Howard, 3rd Battalion The Parachute Regiment, aged 23 from Wellington, New Zealand.]
Sir George Young
The hon. Gentleman has consistently pursued this case in the House and we respect him for that. As I said in response to my hon. Friend the Member for Basildon and Billericay (Mr Baron), I anticipate that the Foreign Secretary might make his statement on Afghanistan quite shortly. That will be an opportunity for the hon. Gentleman to make his case.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
I have had many representations from constituents who are very concerned about the large increases in water bills announced in the past week or so, particularly against a background of people having their wages cut, losing their jobs or having only small wage increases. May we have an urgent debate so that we can hear from the Government what representations have been made to the water companies to try to keep down their charges?
Sir George Young
The hon. Gentleman is quite right that Ofwat recently announced that water and waste water bills could go up by 0.5% ahead of inflation. That decision is broadly in line with the decision taken back in 2009 and is necessary partly to secure investment in infrastructure and drive up the standards of water in this country. He will also know that the Government are taking action to ensure that tariffs are available to those on low incomes so that they are insulated, to some extent, against the increases.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
On Wednesday 20 July, I received a written answer from the Department for Education on the use of e-mails. It was very clear:
“Never use non-DfE email services…to carry out Departmental business.”—[Official Report, 20 July 2011; Vol. 531, c. 1017W.]
It then became equally clear that officials were using Hotmail accounts to advise people in relation to academy status. I raised this issue at business questions on 8 September, when the Leader of the House helpfully said I would get a reply from the Secretary of State. In that reply, the Secretary of State made it very clear that this was one rogue official, and I accepted that response, but we have now heard, as recently as the Select Committee on Education’s session this week, that there is still a lack of clarity about how the Secretary of State himself is using private e-mail accounts. May we have a statement by the Secretary of State in the House to clear up this issue?
Sir George Young
It seems there is a theme running through some of the questions from Opposition Members. I refer the hon. Gentleman to my answers to the questions asked by his hon. Friends. I have registered the concerns of Opposition Members and I will take this up with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Education; I will ask him to respond to and address all the relevant issues that have been raised in this question session and to send a copy to all the Members who have raised them.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
The Government plan to introduce a draft parliamentary privilege Bill soon. May I urge the Leader of the House to delay the publication of that report, unlike all the other recommendations, until the Select Committee on Culture, Media and Sport has finished its report into phone hacking? I am not on that Committee, but it might well suggest that those who have lied to Parliament, including the police, the Murdochs and others, should appear at the Bar of the House and it would be unfortunate if there were any conflict with what the Bill is going to propose. While I am at it, may I suggest that the Leader of the House should stop continually delaying the end of this Session so that he can get his legislation through? That is what the Stuart kings used to do and it did not do them much good in the end.
Sir George Young
I am not sure what Bills they were trying to get on to the statute book but I wonder whether they had the merit of the Bills now before Parliament. On the hon. Gentleman’s first question, we are committed to publishing a draft privilege Bill in this Session, and we plan to do that, but it is a draft Bill and it will be accompanied by a consultation document. If after we have published the draft Bill other documents are available from a Select Committee, of course they can be taken on board before we decide to go ahead with a real Bill, so the conflict he outlines need not arise.
Points of Order
(12 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. We look forward to debating the Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill, which is being presented by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs today. It will certainly be good finally to have some Government business to discuss. Can you advise me, Mr Speaker, whether it is normal when a Bill is introduced outside the legislative programme, as this one has been, for the Opposition to discover its existence through leaks from the other place? Can you further advise whether it is normal for a Secretary of State when approached by her opposite number to state, “I’m not speaking to you; I don’t have to speak to you,” which was the response of the Environment Secretary when I approached her yesterday? I am not sure whether she was feeling a little out of her depth. When I informed her office, at 6.15 pm last night, that I would raise this point of order about the lack of usual courtesies, I received an e-mail from her 20 minutes later finally informing me of the Bill’s presentation in the House now. May I ask you, Mr Speaker, to use your good offices and the usual channels to ensure that the Opposition are kept fully informed of any future urgent business and that the Government do not just drip-feed information to us?
Mr Speaker
I will say a number of things to the hon. Lady. First, on the whole it is probably unwise for the Chair to rule on the matter of normality, which the hon. Lady raised early in her point of order. I shall eschew any temptation to say anything about that. Secondly, she has regaled the House with a racy and intoxicating account of the recent sequence of events which apparently perturbs her but about which I do not think any further comment from me is either necessary or helpful.
Mr Speaker
Of course, I will happily hear the hon. Gentleman. I did not know he was seeking to come in, but he will have his opportunity in a moment.
Thirdly, on the face of it, at this stage, the way in which this matter has been handled is not a matter for the Chair. All I can do, and must do, is ensure that proper notice is given to the House, and it has been. The rest of the matters may continue to be unsatisfactory in the hon. Lady’s mind, but she has given eloquent expression to her dissatisfaction.
Richard Benyon
Further to that point of order, Mr Speaker. I want to get on the record that the Secretary of State has written to the Opposition spokesperson, as well as to the Chair of the Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the devolved Ministers, which I believe is the normal courtesy in these matters. We are very keen to work with both sides of the House to make sure that legislation is taken through in as consensual a way as possible, and we look forward to working with you and Members on both sides to make sure that that happens.
Mr Speaker
I am most grateful to the Minister. Two sides of this have been heard, and I think we will leave it there for today.
Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. In relation to the urgent question, is it in order for Ministers to put up a spokesman who obviously does not know the answers to the questions that Members are putting to him when the Minister who does know the answers is sitting next to him?
Mr Speaker
Who the Government put up on a matter of this kind is a matter for them. As to the content of answers, whether they impress the hon. Gentleman or not and what their quality might be, that is very murky territory, certainly for the Speaker, so I shall keep away from it. I do not think the hon. Gentleman really expected an answer to his question; I think he simply wanted to give vent to his views—and that he has done.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. You will know that previous Speakers have ruled that when a Minister relies on a document for their argument, they are then required to publish it to the House. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury earlier referred to documents that he had signed, so surely he should publish those to the House.
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. My understanding of the position on the question of reliance on a document and its consequent publication is that that applies where state papers are concerned, but whether it applies in this particular context I am not at all sure. I do not advance a strong view on the point. I think he is seeking to rev up or simply repeat a point that was made earlier.
Mr Speaker
The hon. Gentleman professes his innocence and says it is a new point, but even if it is, it has been clearly made and has been heard. I shall not rule on it, because I do not think it is, at this stage, a matter for the Chair to rule on, but the Leader of the House will have heard it and I have a pretty strong sense that it will percolate through to the relevant Ministers. If the hon. Gentleman is still dissatisfied, I feel sure, knowing him for the sort of upmarket terrier that he is, that he will raise the matter again at the earliest opportunity. And in case he is going to ask me whether that was a compliment, as he did the other day when I paid him a compliment and I assured him that it was, it was. We will leave it there.
Bill Presented
Water Industry (Financial Assistance) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 50)
Mrs Secretary Spelman, supported by the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer, Secretary Vince Cable and Richard Benyon, presented a Bill to make provision for the giving of financial assistance for the purpose of securing the reduction of charges for the supply of water and the provision of sewerage services and in connection with the construction of, and the carrying out of works in respect of, water and sewerage infrastructure.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Monday 6 February, and to be printed (Bill 299) with explanatory notes (Bill 299-EN).
Transparency and Consistency of Sentencing
(12 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Kenneth Clarke)
I beg to move,
That this House has considered the work of the Sentencing Council and the transparency and consistency of sentencing.
I am glad to have the opportunity to debate this issue today. Public confidence in our criminal justice system rests on the principle that justice is dispensed independently by a judge in possession of the full facts of a case. It is normal to quote Magna Carta: we do not deprive people of their liberty
“without due process of law”
in this country. It is not the case in the United Kingdom, as it still is, unfortunately, in many parts of the world, that the Executive can order the detention and trial of people simply on the basis that they disagree strongly with the Government. Neither is it the case, as it is in some other judicial systems, that trials can be stretched out and rerun, until the “right” judgment is reached. Politicians do not sentence people in individual cases, judges do, and British Governments lose cases when they are parties in civil actions. I shall not go on, because we all know that those are the fundamentals of civil liberties and the rule of law in this country.
Independence is what we employ judges for, but alongside that fundamental truth lies an equally important principle—the discretion to do justice in individual case. Only judges see the full circumstances of each case, and they need the freedom to vary sentences in individual instances in accordance with the gravity of the offence. They have to bear in mind the circumstances of the individual offender and such mitigation as they may be able to offer. Sometimes the offence will be so aggravated that a higher than average sentence is required, as we saw, for example, after the riots in August. On other occasions, there will be significant personal mitigation, or relatively little harm caused to the victim, which means that a lower sentence than average will be justified. Just as we trust that our independent judges are the right people to make sensible decisions about the running of cases, so we generally trust them to apply the framework of criminal law across a range of different kinds of case of varying degrees of seriousness.
Keith Vaz
On the point about gravity, the right hon. and learned Gentleman will have noted the sentences that were given yesterday to a group of four al-Qaeda inspired fundamentalists, who as the result of a Goodyear hearing will, in effect, be out of prison within six years. Does he consider it important to revisit the whole notion of Goodyear hearings in view of the fact that people who were going to cause mayhem in London have got away with being in prison for only six years?
Mr Clarke
I am not yet familiar with the full facts of the case, so I certainly shall not comment. There is also a matter of principle. The custom is growing that Ministers conduct a running commentary on sentences in individual cases as they proceed. I do not think that that is wise. I believe in the separation of powers. The right hon. Gentleman is a senior and respected Member of the House, but my understanding is that those people will be sentenced next week. I will check. When the sentence is actually imposed, we have a system whereby the Attorney-General can put in an appeal on the ground of leniency and ask the Court of Appeal to reconsider it. I will inquire more closely during the course of the debate, as the right hon. Gentleman is obviously concerned.
Public confidence would not be well served if individual judges gave widely varying sentences in similar cases. We have one body of law as determined by Parliament, and the punishment should fit the crime. Parliament imposing the law is the guardian of public opinion. We are answerable to the general public and the maximum tariffs set by the House have to be taken as a guide by judges in all cases.
Different cases should attract different punishments. The question is how to ensure that our independent judiciary can make judgments that fit the facts of the case but are also consistent with each other: how to balance, on the one hand, the imperative of judicial freedom—such that they have the latitude to sentence according to circumstance—with, on the other hand, the need for a consistent approach across the system and in all our courts.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
My right hon. and learned Friend rightly focuses on public confidence. What assessment has he made of the current state of public confidence in sentencing? Does he have a view about the poll commissioned by Lord Ashcroft and carried out by Populus, which shows that more than 80% of the public, more than 80% of the police and more than 80% of victims think that sentencing is too lenient at the moment?
Mr Clarke
That has always been the case, certainly in my lifetime, and I suspect it always will be. I always wonder why that is the consistent public attitude. I shall not launch into criticism of the press, but I think it is because of the way these things are always presented to the public. The newsworthy cases are those where the newspaper decides to give a short version of the case and rouses the indignation of its readers by the apparent leniency of the sentence. Much though I respect opinion polls, particularly those obtained by Lord Ashcroft, the fact is that most citizens never go to a court of law. Most people, if we ask them, do not know what sort of sentences are imposed by the court. If all they read about are individual sensational cases, which a particular editor is trying to present as scandalous because of a lenient sentence, it tends to form public attitudes.
I shall not go further, but when we read a newspaper, we should not believe we are hearing all the facts of the case. The judge has probably heard hours of evidence from both sides, but what we read are two or three snappy lines summarising what is supposed to have happened in the opinion of the journalist.
Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
Let us look at the facts. Perhaps the public are worried about this fact: 48% of burglars do not receive an immediate custodial sentence.
Mr Clarke
In a moment, I shall probably make another passing reference to the fact that the Sentencing Council guidelines make it clear that custody is undoubtedly a normal sentence for burglary. In my experience, it always has been, and it still is. There has to be a clear mitigating circumstance for anybody to avoid a custodial circumstance.
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
My right hon. and learned Friend is correct in his assertions about lack of knowledge. It is not the fault of the public; it is the fault of the system that there is lack of knowledge in the public domain. That point is eloquently demonstrated and backed up by the findings of research conducted by Ipsos MORI for the Sentencing Council in May last year.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mr Crispin Blunt)
You be the judge.
Mr Clarke
I am reminded by my hon. Friend.
The facts of a case are given and the public are invited to give what they think is an appropriate sentence. Then they are told the sentence the judge gave. In fact, members of the public tend to give more lenient sentences than judges impose, because they have been led to believe—I shall not carry on, because it will only lead to reprisals in the morning. Some of our right-wing newspapers, which I started reading when I was a very small boy, have been telling the nation about soft judges letting off criminals for as long as I can remember, and in my opinion that will be the theme of some of our leading popular newspapers in 50 years’ time, if they survive that long. I shall move on.
This is where the Sentencing Council comes in—the independent body established in 2010 and ably led by its chairman, the right hon. Lord Justice Leveson, to whom I am grateful. Its role is precisely to promote a clear, fair and, above all, consistent approach to sentencing, backed up by supporting analysis and research. As hon. Members know, it does that by publishing guidelines—carefully crafted analyses that set out a clear decision-making process for courts and give guidance on aggravating and mitigating factors to help inform the sentence.
The guidelines include examples of the different levels of harm that a crime can cause, both to victims and the community. They set out varying levels of culpability that apply to offenders, such as whether the offence was committed on the spur of the moment or whether it was carefully planned in advance. They suggest common starting points and ranges for courts to use for different levels of offence. Importantly, they are guidelines, not tramlines or a rigid framework. They are flexible, and judges are always free to depart from them in exceptional circumstances. The most valuable quality for any judge in any court is judgment, which is what, in the end, they bring to bear.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
The point that guidelines should be guidelines was demonstrated after the riots, when in extraordinary circumstances judges used their discretion and gave firm sentences. Guidelines are for ordinary circumstances, but for those extraordinary events judges were spot-on in using their discretion.
Mr Clarke
As it happens, I entirely agree with my hon. Friend’s opinion. Judges rightly reflected the fact that the background was a sudden, alarming outburst of public disorder and that they needed quickly to give firm and severe sentences, in some cases above the average normally imposed for the offence. That was a correct response to public need.
In the two years it has been operating, the Sentencing Council has done much valuable work not only to promote consistency but in its more general role of seeking to improve public confidence in the criminal justice system. However, it has on occasion been criticised for both its general role in developing guidance for the courts and the contents of particular guidelines. The case that I want to make today, before listening to the views of the House, is that the current system is the right one and that these criticisms are largely misdirected. Contrary to what one sometimes reads in the newspapers, sentencing guidelines take a proportionate and sensible approach to the punishment of offenders, and one in which the public should have great confidence.
Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)
My right hon. and learned Friend, in his normal charming way, has encompassed some of the problems in his overview of the concerns about the faith and trust of taxpayers and constituents in the criminal justice system. He says that he does not want to set a precedent whereby Parliament provides a running commentary on sentencing, and he criticises the media prism in which sentencing is discussed, but surely he concedes the obfuscation of court procedures. When will the average taxpayer get a say on sentencing in this country?
Mr Clarke
That is what this debate is for. MPs, and everyone else, are of course perfectly entitled to make whatever comments they wish about the criminal justice system, which, like every part of the public service, is accountable to Parliament, and ultimately it is Parliament that determines the framework of law by which the whole thing is conducted. It seems to have become rather fashionable nowadays for a running commentary to break out about a series of cases, and I think that we should be more sparing. I also think that anyone who comments on this or any other matter should ensure that they have the full facts before going out and giving a considered opinion, rather than just reacting to something they read over their morning coffee.
Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West and Abingdon) (Con)
Will the Lord Chancellor give way?
Nicola Blackwood
I thank the Lord Chancellor, who is being extremely generous, for giving way. His points about press sensationalism, the separation of powers and not wanting to have a running commentary from politicians are well made. However, I think that the lack of public confidence is not just due to a thirst for punishment beyond reason, because there is also the fact that reoffending rates are high. The point about sentencing is that we want it to be an effective deterrent against reoffending. At the moment, 49% of all prisoners reoffend within a year of release, and for adults released from short-term prison sentences the rate rises to 60%. We have to convince the public that our criminal justice system is effectively deterring prisoners from reoffending, which is not an issue of sensationalism.
Mr Clarke
I could not agree more. In fact, in so far as I have brought anything into policy since taking up my current post, it has to put much greater emphasis on reoffending, which is the biggest weakness of our system, but covering the full range of reforms would be outside the scope of the debate. The system punishes first of all, but it would serve the public better if it also led to the reform of more offenders, so that we could get reoffending rates down to a more respectable level. My colleagues and I are trying to address that in everything that we do in the Department of Justice.
It is relevant to the debate to consider what is most effective in deterring reoffending. Some people have held the belief for years, quite understandably, that in order to cut reoffending we must deter people by sending more and more to prison for longer and longer sentences. My personal opinion is that the evidence completely refutes that view. That approach does not work, particularly if it makes prisons overcrowded and unresponsive places where prisoners toughen up and meet some rough friends before being released to fend for themselves in the outside world. We are making more intelligent use of the prison estate so that, in addition to the punishment of confinement, there is a process of reform based on a working environment that tackles drugs, drink, mental illness and all the other things in order to lead people to behave when they are released.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
I am very interested in what the Secretary of State is saying and agree with his view about the importance of deterrence as well as punishment, but there is a flaw in what he is saying about sending people to prison. When talking to police officers in my constituency a year or so ago, I was told that they took five or six prolific burglars off the streets and put them away for a year or two, which had a massive impact on burglary rates in the area, so it does work. Although they will be released eventually and might reoffend, the fact is that putting people in prison does have an impact in certain circumstances.
Mr Clarke
Burglary rates dropped in recent years because we had an economic boom, and I think that there is a serious danger that they will go up again—they are going up at the moment—if we do not get out of our present economic difficulties quickly. Better policing also counts. In my opinion, the police have become much better at targeting suspected offenders and arresting the people causing most of the crime. Of course prison is the right place for serious offenders, so the sentences that the hon. Gentleman describes sound quite light to me for persistent burglars, and everyone gets a rest while they are sent to prison. As I said when agreeing with my hon. Friend the Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood), while such people are in prison, given that they will be released one day, we should make more intelligent use of prisons to try to ensure that we reform those people so that they are less likely to reoffend.
Philip Davies
The Secretary of State seems to be arguing that sending people to prison for longer would not help to reduce reoffending, but his Department’s own figures indicate that the longer they spend in prison, the less likely they are to reoffend. If he is not sure about that, I can tell him that the reoffending rate for people who spend less than 12 months in prison is 61%; for those who spend 12 months to two years in prison, it is 36%; for those who spend two to four years in prison, it is 28%; and for those who spend more than four years in prison, it is 17.6%. It is clear that the longer people spend in prison, the less likely they are to reoffend.
Mr Clarke
There is another debate to be had on that, which my hon. Friend will no doubt press for. If people are sent to prison for less than 12 months, we really do nothing whatsoever for them there. They are locked up, released at the end of their sentence and given no support when they leave, and there are staggering levels of reoffending. One thing that has always been done, by the previous Government and every Government, is that the more serious offenders are kept in prison for longer and more effort is made to try to keep an eye on them when they get out. That is a very brief summary of that debate. Once we start swapping statistics in this way, we could argue practically anything, particularly as most criminal statistics have been remarkably unreliable in recent years—I hope that they are now being improved. My hon. Friend’s view is not quite the same as mine, but I respect it.
Mr Stewart Jackson
My right hon. and learned Friend is being most gracious and generous in giving way. I wish to be helpful, if I can. I am puzzled by his view on the fact that putting people in prison does not work, because he will know about the possible great success of the social investment bond in HMP Peterborough, where 46% of the indicative income for keeping prisoners in prison will go back to St Giles Trust, Nacro and other third sector organisations. That approach will be rolled out across the whole country, if it is successful. Surely the point is that putting people in prison can work, if it demonstrably reduces recidivism in the long run.
Mr Clarke
I do not disagree. I have always held up the arrangement at Peterborough prison as a model of where we want to go. It is exactly what I wish to encourage. People are imprisoned, first, because they have to make their reparations to the public and be punished for what they have done but, as my hon. Friend has rightly said, there is now an extremely interesting situation in place where attempts to start reforming criminals start in the prison and are followed through outside by St Giles Trust, which is the partner of the private sector managers of the prison. We hope to replicate that pilot across the country, which is an example of where we ought to go. People get the punishment first and then proper efforts to stop them offending when they are released.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
To pursue that point further, is it not the case that if we have a system that faces constant increases in numbers, overcrowding and prisoners being moved around in order to accommodate the problems that the system faces, we will not get sentence planning, the careful structuring of sentences or measures to prevent reoffending, which are needed.
Mr Clarke
I entirely agree with the right hon. Gentleman. Indeed, that problem has constantly recurred with the extraordinary explosion in the number of people in prison in recent years.
As I have said, I am not saying that everything is perfect in the wider criminal justice system. I freely acknowledge that reporting and public understanding of our system is far from ideal, which is one reason why the coalition Government have a far-reaching programme of criminal justice reform as well as measures to promote transparency and public understanding. However, we should not muddle the problems of an overly complex body of law, which is too rarely reported accurately, with the rules governing how our judiciary apply the law in particular cases.
For the avoidance of doubt, it is worth saying that although the Sentencing Council is a recent innovation, the approach that it embodies is not new. Sentencing has operated in England and Wales for more than 100 years under broadly the same well-established constitutional settlement, in which Parliament sets the overarching legislative framework within which courts sentence, including the maximum penalty and, for some offences of particular public concern, the minimum penalty available to the courts. The role of independent judges is to work within that framework.
Since 2010, the Sentencing Council and its predecessor, the Sentencing Guidelines Council which was created in 2005, have provided courts with a decision-making process to assess the harm that offences cause to victims and communities, suggesting common starting points and ranges, and highlighting aggravating factors. The Sentencing Council has not fundamentally changed the basic division of responsibilities or the balance of power between Parliament, Government and the judiciary. Before the previous Government created the Sentencing Council, the Court of Appeal carried out this function. Its criminal division gave guidance to courts when it thought that discrepancies were beginning to occur. The Court of Appeal has not lost that power entirely and still gives guidance when it feels it necessary. However, the council now provides the great majority of such support to the courts.
Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
Will the Secretary of State give way?
Mr Clarke
If my hon. and learned Friend will forgive me, I ought to get on or else I will be running a seminar for a large part of the afternoon, which would not satisfy all my hon. Friends.
The Sentencing Council adds stronger checks and balances to the tradition. It does so, first, through its 13-strong membership. The majority of its members are judges and magistrates, but it also includes the Director of Public Prosecutions, the former acting Metropolitan Police Commissioner and the former chief executive of Victim Support. The council has not yet produced guidelines for any category of offences that have not received the support of the Association of Chief Police Officers. These are not simply judge-made guidelines for the courts; a range of backgrounds are represented on the council.
Secondly, the guidelines are determined independently and transparently, but with extensive public consultation. The consultations for recent guidelines have happened over 12 weeks and have elicited thousands of responses. Thirdly, the guidelines enjoy a proper level of parliamentary scrutiny. The right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith) and his colleagues on the Select Committee on Justice consider every draft guideline in detail, taking extensive written and oral evidence from a wide range of experts, including the chairman of the council. The Select Committee’s work ensures that there is meaningful democratic engagement in sentencing guidelines, without compromising the crucial principle of judicial independence.
Over the past 18 months, the council has published guidelines on a number of areas, on occasion attracting lurid headlines about excessive leniency and so-called soft judges. Let me address that directly. Our judges are far from overly lenient. The average length of prison sentences has increased by 20% over the past 10 years. I do not have proper figures but, having practised myself 30 years ago, I think that the increase has been even greater. We now send many more people to prison and impose longer sentences than was ever the norm until the past four years. As my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) pointed out, judges can still respond to things such as the riots in an appropriate way.
The guidelines are concerned centrally with ensuring that sentences properly reflect the seriousness of an offence. They are statutorily required to have regard to the impact of sentencing on victims and public confidence in the criminal justice system. Naturally, people seize on isolated parts of the guidelines and quote them out of context. However, when set against the cases that courts see every day, they are well-thought-out, carefully considered, serious pieces of work. For example, the guideline on burglary concludes that domestic burglary should habitually attract a custodial sentence, that the sentimental value of any goods taken must be considered alongside their financial value, and that the presence of children when a burglary is taking place will significantly aggravate its seriousness.
Mr Leigh
My right hon. and learned Friend is gracious in giving way so often, and he has made clearly his point that burglars should get a custodial sentence. Let me refer to my previous intervention. If we are talking about domestic burglary—which is the worst thing—in 2009, 37% of those convicted of domestic burglary were given a non-custodial sentence. Does it worry him that the courts are not following what he is advising, which is that the people who cause such misery should end up in prison?
Mr Clarke
Individual judges must have considered the guidelines, which are quite new. I am surprised by that figure, however, because burglary has always habitually required a custodial sentence. There must have been some feature in those cases that made people think—either because of a particular problem with the offender when it might have been better to send them on a drug-rehabilitation course, or some other mitigating feature—that on this occasion they would not impose a custodial sentence.
Like all criminal offences, burglary is a wide-ranging offence. It covers everything from someone who has opportunistically opened a door, nicked something off a shelf and run, to two men wearing masks and going into a building, prepared to be violent towards anyone who tries to stop them. There is bound to be a range of sentences, but the guidelines of the Sentencing Council state that domestic burglary should habitually attract a custodial sentence. I have always agreed with that, as does my hon. Friend.
I want to consider the guideline on drug offences that produced some headlines last week. That guideline helps courts to distinguish between organised criminals who, as we know, cause misery to families and the whole community, and those who have become involved in the drug trade through intimidation or a dependency of their own. Contrary to the rather inaccurate headlines that occurred last week, which claimed that street dealers caught with 6 kg of cocaine could avoid jail—that startled me when I heard it repeated on the radio—the truth is that possession of that amount of a drug would be a very serious crime. The starting point for sentencing would be at least seven years in custody, even for an offender playing a lesser role in a criminal operation, rising to a starting point of 14 years in custody for those who have a leading role. The wholly inaccurate headlines stating that drug offences would receive lighter sentences were based solely on the reduction of the sentence for so-called drug mules, if they are addicts and are being exploited to carry drugs for the person who is manipulating them. That sentence has been eased a bit, to the extent that sentences for drug mules who bring in 1 kg of heroin or cocaine now have a starting point of only six years in custody, whereas previously that might have been 10 years.
Significantly higher sentences were recommended for those who play leading roles in a criminal operation, which is why the guidelines on drug sentencing did not receive the slightest criticism from anybody who knows the criminal justice system, including the police and prosecutors. Frequently, the commonly made criticisms of our judiciary and of the guidance produced by the Sentencing Council are unmerited.
I do not, however, wish to defend the status quo uncritically. Anyone who is remotely acquainted with our justice system knows that there are genuine challenges facing it, and that we cannot afford any complacency in addressing them. Sentencing guidelines, and the work of the Sentencing Council, would benefit from further public scrutiny and understanding. The need to ensure that the guidelines receive due public and parliamentary focus is precisely why the Government have allocated today for this debate. I look forward to listening to right hon. and hon. Members and hope that the debate will make a small contribution to establishing public attitudes, and perhaps also to successfully scotching some of the myths that surround the Sentencing Council’s work.
More broadly on confidence in the criminal justice system, it is no surprise to me that the public find it difficult to make sense of the body of criminal law, given that it has grown like Topsy in recent years. Under the Labour Government, constant changes and 20 criminal justice Acts over 13 years left us with a system that even experts have struggled to make sense of. Top-down schemes, meddling and prescription left the system in a complete mess. There were thousands of new offences. I was greeted publicly at the judges’ dinner with the complaint that
“hell is a fair description of the problem of statutory interpretation”.
The net result? A sentencing policy so chaotic and badly managed that towards the end of the last Government’s time in office, they had no room for all the extra people they were putting in prison. They had to let 80,000 criminals out early who promptly went on to commit more than 1,600 fresh crimes. I approved of the new unpaid work community payback scheme, but the way in which it was put into practice meant that offenders serving community sentences usually completed only one or two days of unpaid work each week. That is why there is an urgent need to sort out sentencing, and why we are reforming it. We will simplify it and make it easier to understand, and the House has already considered the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill, which is currently in the other place and will introduce some of our far-reaching reforms.
Under that Bill, we propose to reform the statutory duty on courts and judges to explain the meaning and effect of their sentences and communicate them in plain English so that people can understand what will happen to the offender. We are simplifying the release framework so that all prisoners will be governed by one set of rules, making it easier for justice agencies to keep victims informed, and we are replacing the disgrace of so-called indeterminate sentences for public protection with a tough, determinate regime that can be easily understood by victims and the public. [Interruption.] I hear protests, but we all know that the guru on sentencing, Mr Thomas, described those sentences as an “unmitigated disaster”. In due course, we will also bring forward proposals to ensure that community punishments punish and reform more effectively.
Finally, I believe that our system suffers from a fundamental lack of information and openness. Public understanding of sentencing is critical to confidence in the system and to its effectiveness in ensuring that justice is done. We need to open up a system that to many people remains a rather mysterious world, to reassure people that the law is on the side of the law-abiding citizen. That is why I have announced measures that, in my opinion, collectively amount to a revolution in transparency in our courts.
One major item of progress is that we are developing legislation to remove the prohibition on cameras in courts and allow the broadcasting of sentencing remarks. That will be introduced in the Court of Appeal in the first place, but will be followed by extension to the Crown court at a later date. The filming of victims, witnesses, defendants and jurors will of course not be allowed under any circumstances. The change is intended to ensure that the public can see and hear sentences being handed down and hear the comments that judges make on cases. It is not so that our courts will become theatre. I hope that it will help to demystify the court process without undermining the seriousness and diligence that is so central to the quality of our justice system.
Alongside the televising of sentencing remarks, we are seeking to expand the use of restorative justice. Though the restorative approach is often seen as a means of reducing reoffending, for victims who want to take part it also helps to open up the court process. It allows victims to play an active role in helping the court determine how to deal with an offender, which is one reason why victim satisfaction levels with the approach are so high. Restorative processes can help to turn the justice system from one that does things to victims to one that does things with victims.
Last but not least, we are releasing more data than ever before on the performance of our courts. The radicalism of that policy has perhaps not yet been fully recognised, but it has the potential to deliver major progress in public understanding. For the first time, we are making available information on court performance, including delays and total times, and on sentencing decisions classified by offence. That will enable the public to see exactly what sentences are being handed down and where, particularly in their own locality, and it will help them to put that information in context.
What we are doing will represent a fundamental shift in how the justice system works. Justice must not only be done but be seen to be done if it is to command public confidence. The challenge is to deliver reforms to the wider system to simplify it and make its performance more visible to the public. As the measures that I have outlined suggest, I believe we are on the threshold of a step change in openness and transparency. The changes will complement and strengthen the sensible arrangements under which the Sentencing Council operates, which I readily acknowledge were introduced by the last Government, and its wider place underpinning the sound and long-standing division of responsibilities between the judiciary and the Executive in England and Wales. I look forward to the whole process being subject to parliamentary scrutiny, which we are taking a step further by having this debate.
Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)
Transparency and consistency in sentencing is both an end in itself, as part of an open justice system, and a means to an end. It is an essential component in dispensing criminal justice that is fair and credible and has the confidence of the public. No one has a monopoly on wisdom in these matters, although this country is fortunate to have a judiciary and judicial system that has intellect and integrity and applies itself to achieving fair and honest outcomes. From the magistracy to the Supreme Court, from first hearings and summary trials to second and third-stage appeals, there is much to take pride in. Anyone who doubts that needs only to read the sentencing remarks of Mr Justice Treacy in the case of Dobson and Norris, the murderers of Stephen Lawrence.
That is not to be complacent, and it does not mean that we do not need to review and change things. In government, Labour improved the quality of training for lay magistrates, which means better and fairer decision making and gives us confidence to rely more on what has been a mainstay of justice for 650 years. We also set up the Supreme Court, a body that within a few years has become central to the administration of justice in the UK.
I give credit to the Lord Chancellor—[Interruption.] Will the Under-Secretary of State, the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt), allow him to have my attention? I give credit to the Lord Chancellor for some of the steps that he has taken to promote open justice. Publishing comparative data is a good way of examining the performance of individual courts and measuring consistency. We can cautiously welcome the televising of proceedings. Provided that it protects witnesses and victims and does not sensationalise crime or allow defendants to grandstand, it will be a welcome extension of the principle that the default position of the English courts is that they operate in public.
Perhaps in return, Government Back Benchers will give some acknowledgment of the record of recent Labour Governments, although I doubt it. We inherited a poor record in criminal justice, as we did in health, education and policing. We had communities in thrall to crimes that all too often went unsolved and unpunished and a sentencing policy that was too inconsistent and unscientific, lacking any coherent vision of how to deal with criminals and the revolving door of recidivism. Vulnerable young people were being recruited into crime at ever younger ages. In Moss Side, Liverpool, Newcastle and London, people knew that the Tories could not be trusted on crime and justice. Poorer communities suffered more from the effects of crime, and were abandoned by a succession of Tory Governments who either would not or could not turn things around. It was not only Liverpool that the Thatcher and Major Governments condemned to managed decline.
Mr Slaughter
I will give way to the hon. Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti).
Rehman Chishti
The hon. Gentleman talks of managed decline and the Thatcher and Major Governments, but will he explain why 80,000 people were released early from prison under the Labour Government? Those people were prosecuted—I was a prosecutor—and judges passed proper sentences, but they were let out early by Ministers. That was totally unacceptable.
Mr Slaughter
I took only two notes when the Lord Chancellor spoke, one of which was on that point. It was a bare-faced cheek for him to talk about the early release of prisoners by some days at the end of their sentences under the Labour Government and then immediately to decry indeterminate sentences for public protection, which ensure that violent and dangerous sex offenders are kept in prison until they are not a danger to the public. Does the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) want to intervene?
Mr Slaughter
The hon. Gentleman can make his point in his own time.
Labour’s legacy was somewhat different from that of the Thatcher and Major Governments. The current Government published statistics that show that over the last Parliament, there was a 43% reduction in first-time youth offenders—down from 107,040 per annum to 61,387. As a result, there was a 34% reduction in offences committed by young people, down from 301,860 per annum to 198,449. As a result of that, there was a 15% reduction in young people in custody, down from 2,830 to 2,418. That trend has continued to date. Those are long-term changes in behaviour, in opportunity and diversion from criminality, not the quick-fix methods of trying to shave numbers off the prison population that the Justice Secretary favours.
Youth offending teams—multi-agency partnerships embedded in local authorities—dealt with young offenders from arrest to court to managing their punishment in the community or the securest date for reintegration. As the teams bedded down in their core statutory functions, the previous Government added prevention work to their remit and resourced them with expertise on gang behaviour and restorative justice. We also gave them considerable latitude for innovation to allow for the development of new ideas and local solutions. At the same time, we created the Youth Justice Board to ensure that places in custody were commissioned efficiently and effectively to co-ordinate best practice among YOTs.
Mr Stewart Jackson
Would the hon. Gentleman care to explain why Labour Administrations, in 13 years, lamentably failed to deal with key prisoner issues such as literacy, numeracy, health and mental health? When we had benign financial circumstances and a growing economy, they failed the general public and prisoners.
Mr Slaughter
That would be a good point, if it were true. My colleagues and I visit prisons and young offender institutions around the country, every week and every month, and see excellent education work, and vulnerable and damaged young people gaining skills. We also see YOTs at work.
Nicola Blackwood
“Rehabilitation of Prisoners”, a Home Affairs Committee report from 2004, states that
“47%...of prisoners…spent no time in education and 31%”
spent
“no time in prison work.”
Mr Slaughter
The young lady—the hon. Member—quotes statistics, but she fails to give credit for the steps that were taken and the resources that were put in. I think I had better stop on that point before I say something else I might regret.
As I was saying, the Youth Justice Board and YOTs together ensured that a child-centric approach was embedded in our youth justice system. The Labour Government correctly said that the right way to cut youth offending and the number of young people in the secure estate was to stop them turning to crime in the first place. Labour’s approach was incremental, evidence based and properly resourced.
The Opposition understand that the Lord Chancellor’s reckless promise to lead the austerity charge means 20% cuts to YOTs in one year, but up to 60% cuts to their preventive programmes. We puzzled at the wanton attempt, which was abandoned only at the last hurdle, to abolish the YJB. At least the Government did not seek to abolish the Sentencing Council. I do not know why they did not do so, because it is a recent Labour innovation, and it is transparent and effective, and it gives coherence and yet flexibility to a key area of public policy. I would have thought it was ripe for the chop.
It is worth recollecting the recent history of sentencing policy to see how far we have come in a relatively short time. I do not disagree with the Lord Chancellor on the current operation of the Sentencing Council, but I shall go over its history to show how it developed. Prior to 2004, sentencing guidelines were laid down by the Court of Appeal criminal division in the form of guideline judgments, and beyond that advocates and sentencers were reliant on practitioner texts, primarily Thomas. The texts were effectively sentencing decisions in individual cases accompanied by a more general judicial commentary on sentencing ranges for the type of offence under consideration. In the words of Professor Ashworth, former chairman of the Sentencing Advisory Panel:
“A guideline judgment is a single judgment which sets out general parameters for dealing with several”
variations of a certain
“type of offence, considering the main aggravating and mitigating factors, and suggesting an appropriate starting point or range of sentences…This kind of judgment was pioneered in the 1970s...guideline judgments...set out a fairly elaborate framework within which judges should determine length of sentence…These judgments acquired authority from the fact that the Lord Chief Justice laid them down: they were intended to bind lower courts, and were treated as doing so...the key element is that they were intended and accepted as binding, in a way that most Court of Appeal judgments on sentence are not.”
The Court of Appeal criminal division’s guideline judgments covered both a limited number of specific offences and more general overarching sentencing principles. Guideline judgments were, however, relatively infrequent and by the late 1990s covered only a small proportion of offences.
The Crime and Disorder Act 1998 created the Sentencing Advisory Panel to solve a problem with the Court of Appeal system. When drafting its judgments, the Court of Appeal was constrained by the material on which reliance could be placed. The Sentencing Advisory Panel, chaired by a distinguished academic lawyer, was established to draft and consult on proposals for guidelines and to refer them back to the Court of Appeal for consideration and, in that way, to inform the issuing of a guideline judgment. The Court of Appeal was not obliged to accept the panel’s recommendations, but in most cases did so, sometimes with modifications.
The important feature was that the laying down of guidelines remained under the control of the senior judiciary. The Sentencing Advisory Panel was launched on 1 July 1999 as an advisory non-departmental public body, its role being to promote consistency in sentencing by providing objective advice to the CACD to assist it in framing or revising sentencing guidelines. The panel consisted of 14 members, including sentencers, academics, those with recent experience of the criminal justice system and lay people with no connection with criminal justice. They reviewed the applicable law and statistics and any relevant research and consulted on proposals before formulating advice. In its first five years of operation, the panel produced draft guidelines on about a dozen offences, which were submitted to the Court of Appeal. The Court acted on all but one of those advices, issuing guidelines in a subsequent decision.
In 2001, the Home Office published the Halliday report, which examined the sentencing framework in England and Wales and concluded that we should go further and set up an independent body—either the Court of Appeal sitting in a new capacity or a new judicial body set up for that purpose. The Government took that recommendation forward in the Criminal Justice Act 2003, which established the Sentencing Guidelines Council. The council was established by the 2003 Act and came into effect on 27 February 2004.
Mr Buckland
I am very grateful to the hon. Gentleman for regaling us with a detailed history of sentencing policy development, but would he enlighten us on what happened to “custody plus”, a policy that was introduced in legislation but then dropped because no work was done on how it would be implemented?
Mr Slaughter
I hope I am not boring the hon. Gentleman, who I know takes a keen interest in such matters. Contributions from Government Back Benchers seem ad hoc and based on anecdote. I am setting out how a Labour Government approached policy in a rather more controlled manner. He mentions “custody plus”, but he will be aware—he was a member of the Public Bill Committee on the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill—of the terrible confusion that he and his colleagues got themselves into on the question of whether to allow magistrates to sentence for 12-month periods. They first objected to that and then withdrew their objections, so he has not chosen a great example.
Mr Buckland
The hon. Gentleman touches on another measure the previous Government brought in but never enacted, so that was a very poor example to choose, if I may say so.
Mr Slaughter
At least we were clear in our intent—the hon. Gentleman does not even seem to be clear in that. However, I do not want to have a go at him. While I was listening to the Lord Chancellor, I was reading the evidence Lord Justice Leveson gave to the Select Committee. I was pleased to see that when he sits as a recorder he always fills his forms in properly and submits them to the Sentencing Council. I think he deserves a bonus for that. [Interruption.] I might be telling the hon. Gentleman things he already knows, or he might just not be interested, but I will progress.
In all fairness, the Lord Chancellor said that the Sentencing Council was a good thing to set up and that it was performing a sensible role. The Sentencing Council was set up in 2010 under the Coroners and Justice Act 2009. The Act replaced the SAP and the SGC with a single unified Sentencing Council. The council’s functions, of which the House should take note, are to promote a clear, fair and consistent approach to sentencing; produce analysis and research on sentencing; work to improve public confidence in sentencing; prepare sentencing guidelines; publish the resource implications in respect of the guidelines; monitor the operation and effect of the sentencing guidelines; prepare a resource assessment to accompany new guidelines; promote awareness of sentencing; and publish an annual report, the first of which we saw last October.
I trace that history to show that, in only 15 years, we have moved from a largely ad hoc system to one that is comprehensive, statute based and already recognised as an asset to the criminal justice system. That process of change has been rapid, but organic. It has required co-operation and open minds among politicians, civil servants and sentencers. Finding a balance between a framework that delivers consistency and transparency, and retaining the discretion and independence of the sentencer, is no easy task, but the stepped process the council adopted permits the best of both worlds.
In his foreword to the first annual report, which was published last October, Lord Justice Leveson rightly says the council is proud of its progress so far. I do not believe we would have had a Sentencing Council without a Labour Government, any more than we would have had a Youth Justice Board or YOTs. I welcome the present Government’s support for all three, however belated.
The annual report came too early for the latest published guidelines, on drugs offences, which were released last week, as the Lord Chancellor said. However, the guidelines are a good example of how an effective and intelligent sentencing regime could operate. They recommended lower tariffs for what are sometimes called drug mules, who, the council noted, are often vulnerable people.
Mr Slaughter
I am glad the hon. Gentleman is listening, and I will direct my words more to him. He put that question twice to the Lord Chancellor, who made a very reasonable point: the purpose of sentencing guidelines is to identify a framework in which judicial discretion can progress. The question is therefore somewhat nonsensical. There are starting points for sentences, and there are recommended sentences; there are aggravating and mitigating factors, and there is a range of sentences that can be brought in. The Lord Chancellor talks about us commenting on sentences, but the hon. Gentleman seems to want the House to make sentences in individual cases, which is simply not possible.
Stephen Phillips
The point my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) is driving at is Labour party policy on this issue. The Sentencing Council says domestic burglars should ordinarily go to jail. If the Labour party disagrees, why does it do so? Will the hon. Gentleman tell us?
Mr Slaughter
No, the Labour party does not disagree. As I said a moment ago, the Labour party set up the Sentencing Council and believes that thus far—we do not always necessarily agree with everything it does—it has done a good job. I do not see the point of the hon. Gentleman’s comment.
Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con)
Will the hon. Gentleman confirm that, under the previous Administration, the Sentencing Guidelines Council said that a first-time dwelling-house burglar who was addicted to a drug, and who was susceptible to treatment for that addiction, should not go into custody?
Mr Slaughter
I do not know whether the hon. Lady is still practising—she was practising recently—but she has a slight advantage over me in relation to those issues. However, the point is that we cannot pick and choose. Where I do agree with her, and where I disagree with the Lord Chancellor, is that the public have a role. The idea that they, or indeed the media, do not have a role in expressing their view of sentencing policy is quite wrong; if they did not, we would have no change, be it a liberalisation or an intensification of sentencing policy over the years. It is arrogant to say that they should not have a role. Indeed, in giving evidence to the Select Committee, Lord Justice Leveson said as much. He sees one of his important roles as chair of the council as going in the media to explain things. Yes, he is in despair, as the Lord Chancellor is, when his comments or recommendations are taken out of context and bowdlerised, but he sees that it is important to have the confidence, support and advice of the public, and indeed the media, in these matters.
I was talking about drug mules. The Lord Chancellor has referred to this issue, but it is a good example of where a comment by the Sentencing Council has been taken out of context. The council noted that drug mules are often vulnerable people and victims of exploitation and violent coercion by organised gangs. Disproportionately, they are women, poor and poorly educated, and they are minor beneficiaries of the illegal trade, if they benefit at all. However, the guidelines retain the deterrent effect of a substantial prison sentence, while rejecting the current entry point of 10 years’ custody. They reduce that substantially, but the sentence is still six years.
There are changes in sentencing for the possession or supply of illegal drugs. However, if people make money from selling drugs, they will go to prison; if they deal heroin or cocaine, they will go to prison for a long time; if they deal drugs to children, they will go to prison for a longer period still; and those who take an industrial approach to drug manufacturing and supply can, under the guidelines, expect substantially longer jail sentences than is currently the case. That guidance and clarity is invaluable. By setting standards, it increases the likelihood of the deterrent effect working. It will increase public confidence and increase the confidence of victims in the justice system.
In government, Labour aimed to replace a patch-and-mend system of criminal justice with something more coherent and long term, whether it was a matter of prevention, detection, reassurance, due process—including sentencing—or punishment and rehabilitation. Now, we are going back to patch and mend. To get to the point of sentence, we need a well-resourced police force that can detect and solve crime, but we face 20% cuts to policing numbers. We need effective prosecutors, but we face 25% cuts to the Crown Prosecution Service.
Sir Alan Beith
Is the hon. Gentleman making a commitment that a future Labour Government—if there were such a thing—would increase expenditure on policing by 20% and expenditure on justice by a similar amount?
Mr Slaughter
I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman is committing himself to the coalition in perpetuity in making those comments, but he knows the answer to his question, because the shadow Home Secretary set it out very clearly. We would have made cuts, but we would not have made 20% cuts, and we would not have made the cuts in front-line police officer numbers that are happening everywhere, but particularly, as I can attest, in London.
We need options for judges; we need prison places, which, as we know, are already at crisis level; and we need community sentencing. Every probation service and YOT can name at least one community sentencing project that has had to shut down in the face of cuts, and that is without looking at the cuts in youth services that divert young people away from crime and anti-social behaviour.
The Secretary of State and his Ministers talk a lot about restorative justice, and we have heard about it today. Restorative justice can indeed be transformative justice. As compared with control groups, those sentenced to restorative justice see falls of between 10% and 50% in reoffending. However, despite its success in Northern Ireland, the Government will not resource restorative justice conferencing.
The Opposition support effective alternatives to custody, but where are they? If magistrates and judges do not have the option of, or the confidence in, community punishment, they will be forced to impose custodial sentences. Cutting probation service, YOT and community justice budgets to the extent, and at the speed, that this Government are doing will fatally undermine their plan to reduce detention numbers.
Mr Stewart Jackson
Will the hon. Gentleman answer a direct question? If he is not in favour of a 20% cut in police numbers, and, assuming that he would ring-fence any savings or cuts within the criminal justice system, how would he make up the difference between the 12% cut in police numbers that he would make to Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary, and the 20% cut that the Government are proposing? Where would that 8% come from in the criminal justice system?
Mr Slaughter
I hope that I have answered all questions directly. The hon. Gentleman is asking about an alternative Budget. He is asking what a Labour Government would do differently. We have made it clear that we would not ask police forces around the country to take a 20% cut. That will result in falling police numbers and an increase in crime, but as always the Lord Chancellor seems completely complacent about the idea that we are in a recession and therefore that crime will go up. We were in a recession in 2008-09 but crime was still falling.
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
Why, when police numbers in Humberside in 2008 fell by 137, did not a single local Labour politician campaign against the cuts, but instead defend them saying that police numbers did not necessarily have anything to do with crime levels?
Mr Slaughter
I can go a certain distance with the hon. Gentleman, but I cannot get involved in the minutiae of his conflicts with local Labour politicians—he must fight his own battles in his own backyard.
The size of these cuts fatally undermines the coherence and transparency of the sentencing framework. The guidelines might talk about community punishment but we tell our judges, quite properly, to work with due care: they must minimise risk, and if they cannot sentence in the community, they will sentence to the secure estate. For women and children in particular, this is often a tragedy, disrupting families, education and life chances. We have agreed with the Government on those parts of their policy that simplify and rationalise sentencing options, as some of the measures in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill do, but we do not agree when quick and lazy solutions are sought merely to reduce funding. The 50% discount on sentences and the restriction of magistrates’ ability to remand are back-door ways to cut prison numbers, and they put the public at risk.
The Lord Chancellor may be sincere in wishing to reduce the prison population and in seeing effective community punishment both as an alternative to custody and as a better way to reduce recidivism, but there is little or no sign that he knows how to do this or has the resources to do it. The very significant falls in young offenders in custody were not an aberration but the result of applied policies over 13 years. Keeping young people out of the criminal justice system by preventing offending is probably also the most effective way of reducing the adult prison population in the long term, but the scale of cuts to YOTs risks these hard-won gains.
Worse is the Secretary of State’s attitude to dangerous offenders. This is another difficult issue but not one that will be solved by sweeping away IPPs and replacing them with a patchwork of slightly longer tariffs and the bizarre “two strikes and you’re out” policy. Where violent and dangerous criminals and sex offenders are concerned, the public want a “one strike and you’re out” policy.
I started by praising the sentencers and the sentencing framework that Labour introduced, and I noted the successes we had—not least the 43% fall in crime and the introduction of neighbourhood policing—but further improvements in sentencing policy are needed. Last summer’s riots focused an unusual degree of attention on sentencing policy and practice, and questions were raised about the harshness or deterrent effect of some sentences. What should be of equal or more concern, however, was the disparity between sentences in different regions and different courts. Today’s Library debate pack includes statistics showing that a higher percentage of people in black and minority ethnic groups than of white defendants were sentenced to immediate custody for indictable offences.
I wish I had confidence that the Government would deliver the improvements that we still need. Criminal justice policy should throw up a good deal of consensus, not least because effective solutions need continuity across Governments, but that is not what this ministerial team will be remembered for. Instead, they will be remembered for the sabotage of their flagship Bill by the Prime Minister’s press conference shoe-horning a mishmash of measures into the Bill hours before the Lord Chancellor’s statement to the House; for living under the shadow of their own Back Benchers, who are always watchful for a deviation from the “prison works” mantra; and for offering up cuts so deep and so damaging that successful initiatives have no chance of continuing or being replicated.
This is more than a missed opportunity; it is a certain path to decline. It is the opposite of transparency and consistency; it is holding out false hope and muddling through. The Secretary of State is a prisoner of the promises he made to the Treasury, and as the prison population grows towards capacity and further cuts need to be found in the rest of the Ministry’s budget, his options will become more limited. On sentencing, as in so many other areas of public service and public policy, we found a creaking system and left one that worked well. Our legacy, and that of the country, from this Government will be another broken justice system.
Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)
I was going to begin by complimenting the previous Government on setting up the Sentencing Council, but given that the Labour spokesman devoted his final paragraph to the cuts, I have to say, before turning to the work of the Justice Committee, that since the Labour party envisages cuts on a similar scale to the Government’s—they might be slightly smaller, but spread over a longer period—we are all talking about the same amount of money. Were there a realistic prospect of removing from the Ministry of Justice the obligation to make significant cuts in expenditure, we could all think of ways of spending the money, but any party confronted with office now would have the problem of funding desirable things out of a shrinking resource of public expenditure. If we can all be realistic about that, we may be able to make more progress on those things that we agree on.
One of the things that we seem to agree on is that the Sentencing Council is a valuable body. The Justice Committee has a statutory role in being consulted on the council’s proposals, as has happened in several cases—a couple of reports are on the Order Paper today, one relating to drugs and burglary and the other relating to assault. Our normal practice is to take detailed evidence, after which I normally write to the chairman of the council, Lord Justice Leveson, on behalf of the Committee, and we publish the letter along with the evidence that we have received. I strongly recommend that Members concerned about the council read the evidence from representatives of bodies such as Victim Support and others who come to hearings and give their views about the impact of sentences and about what they think is appropriate.
We believe that the system works well but faces serious inherent difficulties. On the evidence base, we have drawn attention to a fundamental absence of sufficient empirical evidence on which to base decisions on guidelines—for example, those relating to the cost and effectiveness of specific sentences. This is a general problem for those in the judiciary, be they judges or magistrates. Rarely do they get much evidence on the effectiveness of sentences, still less on the effect of sentences on individuals—unless of course they see the same individuals coming back again and again, having committed further offences. We need to ensure that we have the empirical evidence to provide a realistic basis for decisions about appropriate sentences.
Another problem has been mentioned today: the need to produce guidelines which the general public can understand and which are not simply lawyers talking to lawyers—that was an expression that Javed Khan of Victim Support used in evidence to the Committee. There is a tension between providing guidelines that are reliable and soundly worded—for legal purposes—and enabling the public to understand what the Sentencing Council is doing. It is a challenging task, the importance of which we have drawn to Lord Leveson’s attention. We also encourage Lord Leveson’s efforts in matters of public awareness, to increase public understanding of sentencing and work more effectively with the media, a role that the judiciary did not want to undertake in earlier times, for understandable reasons, but which is now much more widely recognised to be important.
Having referred to the work that we do on the Sentencing Council, I want to address what the purposes of sentencing are. The first purpose in my view—this view is generally shared across the Committee—is public safety and the maintenance of law and order. Therefore, there are people who have to be sent to prison, in some cases for very long periods, because they represent a serious danger to public safety and there is no obvious way of reducing that danger while they are at large. Prison therefore has an important part to play in the system. However, public safety also requires that sentences be imposed that are most likely to prevent further offences and the creation of further victims. The vast majority of people who are sentenced in court will come out again—whether after a short sentence or after a longer sentence—committing further offences and still representing a potential danger to our constituents. In many cases, they will have committed offences for which it would not be reasonable, by comparison with more serious offences, to impose very long sentences; therefore, we have to accept the reality. People will come out of prison, and at the moment, far too many of them come out and commit further offences—often repeat offences—over a number of years, which creates more victims.
Mr Stewart Jackson
The right hon. Gentleman is making a reasoned and moderate contribution, if I may say so. Indeed, he certainly takes a more robust view than many in his party. However, what would he say to the family of my constituent, John Hutchinson, who on 31 October was attacked by a group of feral teenagers, one of whom has subsequently been sentenced to a nine-month referral order, which is effectively a glorified contract promising to be good? My constituent is now having to leave his home and go into institutionalised care. Where is the faith and trust of my constituents in the criminal justice system when such an incident happens, and when they know that that individual is likely to go out and commit further crimes in future?
Sir Alan Beith
The hon. Gentleman’s constituent has obviously had a terrible experience, but we should all resist the temptation, in this place and elsewhere, to comment on particular sentences when we do not know all the circumstances in which they were given. If the sentence in a particular case is not appropriate, the Attorney-General has the power to return to the courts and seek a longer sentence, a point that the Lord Chancellor made earlier.
The second purpose of sentencing is deterrence, but the effectiveness of deterrence is often exaggerated. The fact is that when they commit offences, most criminals, first, think that they will not be caught and, secondly, do not have much idea what the sentence will be if they are. Therefore, sentencing is not usually a matter that is firmly in criminals’ minds when they commit offences in the first place. There are many circumstances where the function of deterrence in sentencing is exaggerated. It is there, and it has a role to play. For example, after the public disorder last summer, there was a legitimate reason to believe that unless we made people realise that the offence of theft in the context of public disorder would be treated very seriously, there might be a failure to understand how the courts were going to deal with such matters. There was a deterrence aspect in that case, but there are many offences where deterrence plays no role at all, even though it is one of the legitimate purposes of sentencing.
That brings me to the third purpose of sentencing, which is punishment. Punishment is a wide concept, because it involves the community declaring that it rejects and abhors crime with all its harmful effects. We sometimes fail to understand that purpose of sentencing. One reason why people react as they might have done on reading in the newspaper about the case that the hon. Member for Peterborough (Mr Jackson) raised a moment ago is that they think the court has not demonstrated how seriously the community takes a crime of that kind.
Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
I could not agree with my right hon. Friend more. Does he agree that the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill, which is currently in the other place, firmly demonstrates the Government’s commitment to that principle in relation to the crimes of sexual exploitation and paedophilia, by clearly saying that two thirds of a sentence must be served and that if somebody goes on to perpetrate another horrendous crime of that nature, they should receive a life sentence?
Sir Alan Beith
Yes, but there is also a public safety aspect to the kind of cases that the hon. Lady has described, in that they may involve criminals where the likelihood of their not reoffending is very low and where long, determinate sentences are therefore appropriate. However, the problem with this very necessary part of sentencing is that it can lead to a tension between society declaring very clearly that it will not put up with something and what would be likely to lead to that person not reoffending—I am not thinking of the kind of case to which she has just referred, but a much broader range of crimes.
Understandably, the public read about crimes and compare how different ones are treated by the courts; indeed, we all do that. We want to be sure that the worst crimes are taken the most seriously. Prompted by media reports in particular, the relative seriousness issue tends to be judged according to whether a sentence is a prison sentence and how long it is. Such sentences might not be the right answer for every case, however. The likelihood of reoffending could be greatly reduced in some cases by tackling a drug or alcohol problem, for example. If that is not done, it does not matter how long the person is kept in prison, because they will commit further offences when they come out, fuelled by their problem. The judiciary therefore has to bear in mind all the purposes of sentencing. Considerations of public safety, deterrence and punishment must all inform each decision.
In the light of those principles, we should also consider how the judicial processes work. We want them to enable the most effective sentences to be available and to be applied. As I mentioned earlier in a different context, however, we have a weak evidence base for allowing the judiciary to determine whether sentences have been effective. Few judges are able to tell how the sentences that they have passed have worked out in practice, or whether they have had the desired effect. The exceptions are those cases in which an offender comes back before the court. We need to deal with that evidence problem.
We have also seen a lack of effective management of sentencing and post-release provisions. The Government have set about improving that situation, and the Committee very much welcomes that. We have discussed in some detail the payment by results model and other ways in which the Government have sought to ensure that people coming out of prison have access to provisions that actually work. We cannot achieve that, however, if our prison system is in turmoil. A system in which people are simply shunted around in order to create spaces for other prisoners is the enemy of effective sentence management.
There is an institutional bias in the system in favour of the use of custody, regardless of whether it is the best option. If a judge or magistrate passes a community sentence, the first question has to be, “Are the necessary facilities available in this area?” That applies to residential provision for tackling a drug problem and to the various kinds of community disposal. We have to ask what is available. If a custodial sentence is passed, however, the prison van rolls up outside and the prisoner is taken away. The judiciary can be confident that that will happen, although it might not know where the prison place will be found. The system will find a place somewhere, however, and there is an institutional bias in the system in favour of such disposals.
Custodial sentences and non-custodial sentences are commissioned by different people. The commissioning of custodial sentences is a national function, carried out by the National Offender Management Service largely on a national basis. There is an attempt to provide prison places locally, but in practice, prisoners are often circulated and shunted around. Non-custodial sentences are commissioned much more locally. In the case of youth custody, we have seen how much more effective the process can be when it is handled locally. My Committee has regularly sought to interest this Government and their predecessor in the idea of more local commissioning of custodial and non-custodial disposals, so that a balance can be struck more locally. Clearly, there will still be a need for responsibility to be taken at national level for high-security prisons and other specialised services, but local commissioners could buy into that provision. In many areas, including the health service, this Government and the previous one have seen the value of a separation between commission and provision, and it seems strange that that is still not fully appreciated within the Ministry of Justice.
I want to refer to one of our Committee’s earlier reports, “Cutting crime: the case for justice reinvestment”, which was published not long before the general election in 2010. It was very well received and is still much quoted, which we find gratifying. The report identified a never-ending cycle of spending money on the punishment of offenders whose crimes we ought to have been able to prevent from happening in the first place. If we had spent the same amount of money on diverting young people away from criminality into positive activity, on education, particularly for those whom the education system has failed, on intervention to deal with problem families and on very early intervention for young children, we could have prevented some of the crimes. Instead, we are spending money on incarcerating the people who committed them.
I very much welcome what the Government are doing—particularly on the latter two issues I have mentioned thanks to the efforts of the Minister of State, Department for Education, my hon. Friend the Member for Brent Central (Sarah Teather)—in insisting that even in these straitened times, we must find money for early intervention and early access to education, especially for those in deprived circumstances. I welcome that commitment.
The theme of our report, which has sadly been overtaken in this respect by the circumstances in which we now find ourselves, was that there should be a real resources shift from the custodial system into crime prevention. On this issue, people often say, “You can’t do that because the crime has happened,” but if we do not start in some way to inject and invest money at the stages where people’s propensity to commit crimes begins, we will continue to have to spend more and more money dealing with the consequences of crime.
We had, of course, hoped that financial circumstances might allow the money to start that process moving to come from elsewhere, but they have not allowed that— except to the limited extent to which the Government have been able to invest in early years education. The Ministry of Justice has thus had to find from within its own budget money to spend on more preventive measures. It is not just a matter for the Ministry of Justice, because it also involves the Department for Education, the Department of Health and a whole series of Departments whose expenditure decisions will determine whether some of our constituents are victims of crime in the future. Only to the extent that they divert those most likely to commit crimes away from that course will we achieve the purpose of preventing crime and promoting public safety.
The purpose of the sentencing system, as viewed here from the perspective of parliamentarians, must surely be the protection of our constituents—keeping our constituents safe. We should spend public money on sentences that cut crime rather than on the grim and often devastating consequences of crime. That is the principle towards which I believe all Governments should work, and I hope that this Government will work towards it.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
It is an enormous pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), the Chairman of the Justice Committee. I agree with almost everything he said. Many lawyers are present, which is not unusual in the House of Commons, especially on a subject like this one. It is absolutely the right approach to highlight the importance of investing resources on prevention rather than at what happens at the end of the criminal justice system. As the right hon. Gentleman has said, that means early intervention—something that no Government seem prepared to do because it costs money up front, whereas at the moment, our system pays to keep people in prison at astonishing rates in order to punish them, but they often come out of prison and reoffend.
When the Solicitor-General winds up the debate—I understand that he is the Government’s spokesman at the end—I hope he will tell us whether Lord Justice Leveson is still chairing the Sentencing Council, even though he is also—[Interruption.] I am most grateful; the Solicitor-General no longer has to wait for the winding-up speech. We work quickly together, Madam Deputy Speaker, as he is my neighbour in Leicestershire, so we understand each other quite well.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. Telepathy is difficult for Hansard to pick up and it is not easy for other Members in the Chamber. It would help if we made that sequence a little clearer.
The Solicitor-General (Mr Edward Garnier)
To make it clear, the right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) meant that I, not Lord Justice Leveson, was his parliamentary neighbour. I say that in case that does not appear clearly on the record either.
Keith Vaz
In football terms, that was an instant replay. I am glad that Lord Leveson now chairs the important inquiry into the media. After that is completed, he will start the next inquiry. He must be an incredible chap to be able to chair the Sentencing Council and conduct all these other inquiries. I am glad that he is still there; continuity is important.
Let me go back to the intervention I made at the start of the Lord Chancellor’s speech. He said that the Government would be able to give us more information at the end of the debate on the case that I raised, which has been concluded in the courts. It concerns a group of four al-Qaeda-inspired fundamentalists who admitted planning to send mail bombs to their targets during the run-up to Christmas 2010. Their targets included the Palace of Westminster, the home of the Mayor of London, the Stock Exchange, and other buildings of that kind.
Those defendants participated in what is known as a Goodyear direction, which, as the Lord Chancellor and other Members will know, enables a trial judge to indicate the sentence that will be given if a defendant pleads guilty. I understand that the sentence that is indicated cannot be increased by the judge at the time when the defendants are sentenced.
Rehman Chishti
I have huge admiration and respect for the right hon. Gentleman. However, I dealt with Goodyear indications when I practised as a barrister, and I recall that a judge can refuse to give such an indication. He can say, “This is too severe. If the defendant wants to plead guilty, he can do so; otherwise he can stand trial.” A Goodyear indication can relieve a potential victim of the stress and the ordeal of giving evidence, but ultimately it is a matter for the judge: if he thinks that the sentence is too severe, he will not give a Goodyear indication.
Keith Vaz
The hon. Gentleman is a very experienced prosecutor, and he knows much more about these matters than I do. Perhaps, given the charges that were levelled against the individuals in the case that I mentioned, the judge ought to have refused the application, but the fact remains that two of the defendants, Mohammed Chowdhury and Shah Rahman, were effectively told by Mr Justice Wilkie that they would be out in six years, because that was what was indicated by the sentence of twelve and a half years that he proposed to give them.
I have raised that case because it came before the court yesterday, because we are debating this issue today, and because I think we should consider the severity of what would have occurred had the matter been brought to fruition.
The Solicitor-General
I do not want to rain on my right hon. neighbour’s parade, but I am afraid that I will not be answering questions of the kind that he has put to me when I wind up the debate. The matter is ongoing. It may well be that the judge has given a Goodyear indication, but he will be sentencing next week, and nothing that I shall say today, or that the right hon. Gentleman will say today, should in any way impinge on the judge’s discretion. The Goodyear direction system is there, and its conduct is circumscribed by fairly strict rules. While the right hon. Gentleman is perfectly entitled to make any point that he wishes to make about particular sentences, I think that—as my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor said earlier—we would be better advised to leave that particular issue until the sentence has been promulgated. All sorts of implications may flow from that.
Keith Vaz
I am very happy to take the Solicitor-General’s advice. What I have sought to do is ensure that the issue is looked at, as I hope it will be in future when the sentence is finally determined.
Let me move from the specific to the general. I do not want us to reach a point at which we have plea bargaining in criminal justice, because I think that that would be wholly wrong. The hon. Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) mentioned the riots. I pay tribute to the way in which the criminal justice system operated throughout that period. I well remember going to Horseferry Road magistrates court at midnight and receiving a call from the Under-Secretary of State for Justice, the hon. Member for Reigate (Mr Blunt), who welcomed me. I do not know how he knew that I was going to be there, but somehow he knew that I was looking at the 24-hour courts. Although there was something of a gap because both the practitioners and the defendants had to be brought from police stations, the courts moved very quickly at a time when it was necessary for that to happen.
Although politicians are very wary of trampling on the jurisdiction of the judiciary, the public, and even the Prime Minister, made known their views on sentencing during the riots. The result was that the courts issued sentences that were, on average, more severe than for similar offences committed outside the period of the riots.
I also pay tribute to the Lord Chancellor and the Ministry of Justice for providing my Committee with so much information. I do not think that we have had so much transparency before, as regards figures relating to the riots being made available. I think it was the Lord Chancellor who told us, in a Select Committee evidence session, that 76% of people who appeared before the courts for offences committed during the riots had a previous conviction. He also told us that for adults, the figure was 80%, and for juveniles it was 62%. It is important, as we look at sentencing and transparency, that figures are made available to Select Committees and Parliament, so that we can have informed views on the issues that we are deliberating.
The hon. Member for Oxford West and Abingdon (Nicola Blackwood), who has left the Chamber, raised the issue of rehabilitation in her intervention on the Lord Chancellor. One of the most important issues that the Lord Chancellor has raised during his time in office is that of rehabilitation. As the Chairman of the Justice Committee has said, there is no point in just sending people to jail; if one convicted criminal in four reoffends soon after completing their sentence, something is wrong with the way we deal with rehabilitation. Of course people have to go to prison to be punished in certain circumstances, but the prison authorities need the time and space to start the process of rehabilitation.
We have been looking at the roots of radicalisation and will publish a report on the subject on Monday next week. We feel it is very important that when people are incarcerated, those who are able to detoxify—that was the word used in the evidence given to us, and I use it again today—people who have been radicalised have time to do that. One cannot do that in a short period, or without resources; it has to be done over a period of time. We need to ensure that when those people come out, the experience has made a difference to their lives, because at the end of the day it is our constituents who suffer if that is not the case.
This is a good debate, and I hope very much that it will not just be about tougher sentences, because as we all know, 83 of the 134 prisons in this country are classified as overcrowded. If we are to make sure that when people come out, they do not reoffend, we need a criminal justice system that is fit for purpose and able, in the end, to do the one thing that we want it to do: help in the reduction of crime.
Philip Davies (Shipley) (Con)
These debates on criminal justice matters always resemble a lawyers’ dinner party; it is all very fascinating, but I am not sure that most of my constituents will be entirely impressed with the conclusions drawn from a lawyers’ dinner party. Once again, we have a cosy consensus in this place, and that usually precedes a disaster in public policy. There was the exchange rate mechanism, which all the parties fell over themselves to agree with, and which was, of course, an unmitigated disaster; and the Child Support Agency, which all parties thought was absolutely marvellous, but which, again, ended up a complete disaster. Today, all three parties are falling over themselves to agree on the merits of sending ever fewer people to prison. Once again, we face consensus, which is a disaster.
I am sometimes misunderstood, so I should say at the start that I think the Secretary of State for Justice is a great man. He would be a greater man, however, if he was in charge of a different Department. That should not be misconstrued as my lobbying for him to become the Minister for Europe, by the way, but I do think his talents would be better used in another Department.
We have had a sterile debate on this issue for far too long. I believe that the first duty of any Government is to protect the public. There has been a long-running debate in which people are characterised as belonging to one of two separate camps: the camp that believes in prison, and the camp that believes in rehabilitation. The right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) seemed to reinforce that view towards the end of his speech, and it is a false division. I believe in sending people to prison; I also believe in rehabilitating people while they are in prison, and I do not see why a difference should be seen between the two. We must have a more sensible and nuanced debate.
There are two myths about the criminal justice system—first, that we send far too many people to prison; secondly, that prison does not work—and I want to try expose them both. The liberal elite are always conditioning us to believe that we send too many people to prison, but according to figures provided by the House of Commons Library, for every 1,000 crimes recorded in the UK, we send 17 people to prison. That compares with 29 in Ireland and 31 in Spain—in fact, virtually every other country in the European Union sends more people to prison for every 1,000 crimes committed than we do. Of course, in America they send more than 200 people to prison for every 1,000 crimes committed. People may mock, but they have a crime rate that is less than half the UK’s.
I got the House of Commons Library to produce an interesting piece of evidence showing the prison population per 1,000 crimes committed, and the crime rate, in 45 different countries around the world. Obviously, there was not an exact correlation, but it was striking how close it was. The countries with the highest prison population also had the lowest crime rate. That really should not come as a great shock to people, because to be perfectly honest, most of the public would think it blindingly obvious that the more criminals we send to prison, the fewer we have on the streets committing crimes. It is blindingly obvious to everybody—apart, it seems, from the cosy consensus of the three major parties in this country.
My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made the case again today that crime goes up when we have an economic recession and down when we have a boom. I asked the Library to test that theory, too, and it produced a graph showing the crime rate, prison population and gross domestic product in this country since the war. There is a striking, remarkably close correlation between the prison population and the crime rate: as the former goes up, the latter tends to go down. There is absolutely no correlation whatsoever between GDP and the crime rate, so that is an absolute myth. It might seem logical to think that such a comparison exists, but all the evidence from the Library shows absolutely no link whatsoever.
I would argue not that there are too many people in prison but too few. Of course, under the previous Government and the end of custody licence scheme, 81,578 prisoners were released early, including 16,000 violent offenders, 1,234 of whom went on to commit 1,624 new offences—including at least three murders— during the time when they would normally have been locked up. That is 1,624 unnecessary victims of crime as a result of having fewer criminals behind bars.
A district judge told me about a bizarre situation that arose. On a Saturday morning, he sentenced somebody to six weeks in prison for theft. Three days later, on the Tuesday morning, the very same person came before him, having already committed another crime, despite having been sentenced to six weeks in prison just three days earlier. I asked how on earth that was possible. The judge explained that only half such a sentence is served, which automatically brought the sentence of six weeks—or 42 days—down to 21 days. Everybody was being released 16 days early, so that brought it down to five days. The individual in question had spent five days on remand before his trial, so, despite having been sentenced to six weeks in prison, he was let straight out. What an absolutely farcical situation. It is an utter farce and then we wonder why nobody in this country has any confidence in the criminal justice system.
The Government’s policy is also based on a premise which we heard again from the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith)—the idea, which we are encouraged to believe, that it is so easy to be sent to prison in this country. A myth has built up that someone can commit a minor offence and will be mopped up by the police, marched straight to the courts and, without a by-your-leave, sent to prison. If only that were the case. I would love to live in such circumstances, but it is far from the case. In the real world, people commit crime after crime and go to the magistrates court where they are given community sentence after community sentence until, eventually, a magistrate or district judge gets bored and finally says, “I have no other option, I have sent you on every possible programme going and I now have to send you to prison.” That is what happens in this country despite what the right hon. Gentleman said.
Sir Alan Beith
I suggest that the hon. Gentleman has a look at the evidence given by two ex-offenders who appeared before the Justice Committee during our probation inquiry, who both told us separately that their community sentences were extremely demanding, that they were fed up with them and that they had committed further crimes to get into prison, where they got three square meals a day and had much less to do.
Philip Davies
They must have had to commit an awful lot of crimes to get themselves into prison, because it is very difficult to get sent to prison in this country.
Let me emphasise the point. In 2009, according to the Ministry of Justice, 2,980 burglars and 4,677 violent offenders with 15 or more previous convictions were still not sent to prison. Today, the Secretary of State was saying that if someone commits a burglary they should expect to go to prison. In one year, however, 2,980 burglars with 15 or more previous convictions still were not sent to prison, which seems rather to defy the message that the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed is trying to give.
Paul Maynard
Does my hon. Friend share my concern that there are prisons, secure children’s homes and independent institutions where people, on their release, knock on the door begging to be taken back in? Those settings were the only place in which they received the care and support that they needed to be a meaningful member of the local community on their release. Does he share my concern?
Philip Davies
I share many of my hon. Friend’s concerns and I am certainly concerned that many people are anxious to get back into custody. There are an awful lot of reasons for that, one of which he has given. Some might argue that another reason why people are so keen to get back into prison is that their quality of life in prison is far better than their quality of life outside prison. When 4,070 prisoners enjoy the luxury of Sky TV in their cells—not even in a communal area—we know that something is fundamentally wrong with our criminal justice system.
Anna Soubry
Could it not be that the quality of their life outside prison is so utterly miserable that even life behind bars is preferable to the dreadful life that they live in the community?
Philip Davies
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We have this wretched organisation, HM inspectorate of prisons, the members of which come down from their nine-bedroom mansions in Oxfordshire, go around the prisons and say, “Oh, it’s jolly awful in here, isn’t it? Absolutely terrible.” If those same people came from the same crime-ridden estates that people in prison tend to come from, they would probably say, “It’s jolly nice in here.” There is rather a big disconnect between the backgrounds of the people in prison and of these do-gooders, the prison inspectors.
Paul Maynard
As one of those do-gooders—I realise that that might be a matter of concern to my hon. Friend—may I ask whether he has any proposals on how we could improve local authority accommodation for young people, for example, to ensure that the communities where they live are safer for them than a secure custodial setting? What positive proposals does he have in addition to his House of Commons research?
Philip Davies
My positive proposal appears to have escaped my hon. Friend. I think I am right in saying that he is a member of the new 301 group, which I thought referred to the number of seats we had to win at the next election; I did not realise it was the target for the number of people we should have in prison, which seems to be the approach advocated. What about the quality of life of many law-abiding people in this country? We talk about the rights of criminals, but what about speaking up for the law-abiding people who think that their quality of life would be improved if more people were sent to prison in the first place? Not only are all those people not being sent to prison, but we still have a system in which someone who goes to court with 100 previous convictions behind them is still more likely not to be sent to prison than to be sent to prison. How on earth can we have a criminal justice system in which that is the case?
Mr Buckland
I yield to no one in my admiration for my hon. Friend’s force of argument, but I query that last statistic. I have been looking at a sentencing survey that was conducted in relation to the Crown court for the six months from October 2010 to spring 2011, which says that 78% of offenders with 10 or more previous convictions were going straight into custody. That may not be the 100% he would like but it is a pretty hefty statistic by any reckoning, is it not?
Philip Davies
I think my hon. Friend is very good friends with Ministry of Justice Front Benchers and I suggest that he ask them some parliamentary questions, because those are the answers they have given. To be as helpful as possible, I will furnish him with the parliamentary answer that shows that people with 100 previous convictions behind them are still more likely not to be sent to prison than to be sent to prison. He might wish to take this up with his hon. Friends on the Front Bench.
I was shocked to receive a parliamentary answer showing the number of people who were given cautions for indictable offences, which are the most serious category of criminal offence and include murder, wounding with intent, abducting children and arson. That answer showed that 22 rapists, 24 people convicted of arson and 140 people convicted of unlawful intercourse with a girl under 16 have been given a caution. Bearing in mind the fact that cautions are given on admission of guilt, how on earth can we have a situation in which those people are not being sent to prison and are merely handed a caution? The Government are completely out of step with public opinion, particularly those highlighted in the Populus poll conducted by Lord Ashcroft, which showed that 80% of the public said that sentencing was too soft and that 70% called for life imprisonment to be made much harder.
There is this wrong idea that community sentences are far more effective at reducing reoffending and are also cheaper, but I want to point out that a Home Office survey found that the number of crimes committed per offender in the year before they were sent to prison averaged out at 140—or 257 for those on drugs. The typical cost calculated for those crimes was £2,000 each, which works out at £280,000 a year, in comparison with an estimated cost of £38,000 for a prison place, so perhaps we ought to think about what is most cost-effective.
In 2008, offenders who had completed a community sentence went on to commit a further 250,000 crimes in the 21 months following their sentence, 1,500 of which were serious offences including murder, rape and robbery. As I mentioned to the Secretary of State earlier this week, in 2008-09 some 6,600 people whom the probation service deemed to be high risk or very high risk were serving community sentences.
Then there is the myth that prison does not work. The reoffending rates for people serving short-term sentences is higher than any of us would like, but I have been to lots of prisons in the past 12 months, probably about a dozen—I even visited one in Denmark to see what they do there—and I argue that prison does work. It could probably work better but it does work. As I made clear in my earlier intervention, the longer people spend in prison, the less likely they are to reoffend. If prison itself was the problem, the longer people stayed there the more likely they would be to reoffend, but the opposite is true. I have given the figures: for people who spend less than 12 months in prison, the reoffending rate is 61%; for those spending 12 months to two years in prison it is 36%; for those spending two to four years in prison it is 28%; and for those spending four years or more in prison it is 17.6%.
Professor Ken Pease has used Home Office statistics to show that 13,892 offences resulting in conviction could have been prevented if offenders serving short sentences had been kept in prison for an extra month. That suggests an argument for sending people to prison for longer, rather than for not sending them to prison at all. My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State complained, rightly, about the previous Government’s early-release programme that let people out of prison 16 days early, but the solution should not be not sending them to prison at all, which is what he seems to be advocating now.
When people are in prison we must try to rehabilitate them, but I do not understand why rehabilitation has to occur in the community. I have been arguing about this for quite a while with my Front-Bench colleagues. I should like a system modelled on the TBS programme that has been operating in Holland for many years. It treats prisoners with a personality disorder, of whom there are a large number in our prisons, and has achieved low reoffending rates. People are treated in prison, which is much easier because they do not have so many distractions—they cannot go off and do other things. In prison, they can be given proper targeted support, which is much harder when they are out of prison.
I very much support the Secretary of State’s promoting a stronger work ethic in prison. When I go round prisons, I am appalled by the lack of work ethic. Many prisoners are from families that have never worked; they are often the third generation who have never worked. Surely, one of the things we can do for them in prison is to get them into a proper disciplined routine so that they get up at a certain time in the morning and carry out tasks that get them into a work ethic. My right hon. and learned Friend is absolutely right to do that.
A study by Frances Simon in 1999 followed 178 prisoners until five months after their release. She found that 75% of those who had not sought regular work reoffended compared with only 28% of those who were actively looking for work and 15% of those in regular employment. That shows that even the discipline of going out and looking for a job can make a big difference to reoffending rates. Prison has to be the prime place where some of those people are given the discipline of a work ethic.
I think the Government are making a huge mistake about indeterminate sentences for public protection. Earlier today, my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) cast doubt on Ministry of Justice figures, but I trust my hon. Friends on the Front Bench. According to those figures, by the end of the 2010 calendar year, 206 people serving indeterminate sentences had been released from prison. Of those, only 11 had reoffended—a rate of about 5%, from my quick calculation. The criminal justice system as a whole would give its right arm for a reoffending rate of 5%.
If the Government are so obsessed with reoffending—the Secretary of State has said that he is—why on earth do they want to give up the part of the criminal justice system that probably has the lowest reoffending rate? It goes to show that the Secretary of State is not really preoccupied with the reoffending rate; he is preoccupied with reducing the number of people he sends to prison. That cannot be the right course of action and it is certainly not something that my constituents want.
Mr Kenneth Clarke
I am sorry to intervene just after my hon. Friend and I were warmly agreeing on the need to get a working environment in prisons. I can tell him that I had an excellent meeting this morning at the CBI, with leading figures from British business and the Prison Service, and we are making progress. On that we are totally agreed. With great respect, the figures my hon. Friend uses for IPPs are, unlike some of his other statistics, not very reliable. A tiny number of people have been released from IPPs, so to make a comparison between the very small sample he cites and the very large numbers he was using earlier is ever so slightly misleading. Most people imprisoned under IPPs have not been released and do not know when they will be released. There is an enormous backlog of cases for the Parole Board, which is wondering what to do with them.
Philip Davies
The figures my right hon. and learned Friend dismissed are the ones supplied by his Department. All I can do is give the figures as they are. They indicate that of the 206 people who have been released having served an IPP sentence, only 11 have reoffended. It is up to hon. Members to draw their own conclusion from those figures. The principle that we should not release people from prison until it is safe to do so strikes me and my constituents as a rather good one to have in the criminal justice system. His suggestion that we should release people from prison regardless of whether it is safe to do so seems rather bizarre.
Philip Davies
If my hon. Friend does not mind, I will make some progress, because many other Members wish to speak and I want to draw my remarks to a close.
My final point is on the automatic release of offenders halfway through their sentence, which is one of the shameful things the previous Government sneaked through in the last Parliament. Prisoners are now not just eligible for release halfway through their sentence; they are automatically released. I think that that is a terrible situation. When I visited Denmark, whose criminal justice system is always seen as very liberal, I found that they do not have that system. They have the system we used to have, whereby prisoners became eligible for release halfway through their sentence. In fact, 30% of their prisoners were refused parole altogether and served the full sentence handed down by the courts, and they think that that is one of the major reasons why they had such low reoffending rates. I urge the Secretary of State not to have a system where we automatically release prisoners willy-nilly halfway through their sentence and irrespective of their behaviour in prison or their risk of reoffending. We should make proper judgments about people’s fitness for release before we agree to release them. I think that we can learn from Denmark in that regard.
Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con)
Having worked with and represented many victims of crime and their families, I know that what they find most upsetting and offensive is when a sentence that they feel is just or suitable for the perpetrator of a crime is halved, which they say is an extra insult. In the case of a family I represent, the halving of a sentence is a double blow on top of the murder of their child.
Philip Davies
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. She does a great deal of work representing victims charities, such as Families Fighting for Justice, and should be commended for it.
With regard to transparency in sentencing, it cannot be transparent for people to be handed down a particular sentence when we know that in reality they will serve only half of it. I believe that honesty in sentencing should be introduced and that if someone is sentenced to 10 years in prison they should serve it. If I go down to my local pub and ask someone, “Did you hear that someone got 10 years in prison?”, the first thing they are likely to say is, “Well, they’ll be out in five minutes, and it’s a waste of time anyway.” That is one of the main reasons why people have so little confidence in the criminal justice system.
The primary role of the criminal justice system should be to achieve justice, not to find the cheapest alternative to sentencing or reduce the number of prisoners because prisons are reaching capacity. The Government’s job is to provide the right number of prison places for the people the courts deem it right to send to prison, not to introduce Bills designed to reduce the number of people being sent to prison in order not to exceed capacity. If the number of school children in this country increases, we do not say, “Well, this is the number of school places, so tough; everyone else can go to the local phone box to be educated.” No, we build more schools to provide school places, and the same should apply to prisons. If more criminals need locking up, we should build more prisons. The public need to feel protected, the perpetrators need to know that they will be punished properly and the victims of crime need to feel that justice has been done, as my hon. Friend the Member for Wirral West (Esther McVey) made clear.
I fear that my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State is taking our party and this country in the wrong direction. Notwithstanding his excellent idea about work ethic in prisons, I believe that his sentencing policy is in danger of single-handedly losing the party its hard-won reputation as the party of law and order. More importantly, it is in danger of creating more unnecessary victims of crime.
Gareth Johnson (Dartford) (Con)
It is an honour to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies). I do not agree with every word he said, but he made some pertinent and correct points about honesty in sentencing. Perhaps I may add a further scenario to his list. I worked for the Courts Service, where I found that, for example, somebody could appear before magistrates on a Friday and receive seven days’ imprisonment for a fine default. However, as the sentence was automatically halved, and as the weekend counted in their favour and they could not be released during that time, the prison van would throw them out before they even got to prison. A person can be sentenced to seven days’ imprisonment and not spend a minute inside, and it is such dishonesty that, as my hon. Friend pointed out, angers many members of the public.
We all want consistency in sentencing, but we must recognise that we will never completely achieve that because it is impossible. No two offences are identical and there will always be differences in approach. As long as courts have discretion, there will be variation in how they deal with similar matters. If we remove that discretion, however, injustices will inevitably occur.
Members of the public view similar offences in differing ways, and we should not be surprised that often the judiciary will do the same. We want our judiciary to mirror the public, and just as the public have differing opinions about different types of offences, such variation can be reflected in our court houses. We need some consistency of approach, some basic similarities in decision making, and guidelines to help ensure that courts treat similar aggravating and mitigating circumstances comparably. We should never, however, be tempted to adopt a system that lacks discretion, flexibility, or the freedom to differentiate.
We need a degree of certainty, but not an over-prescriptive approach that removes a court’s discretion. For example, a defendant who has entered a guilty plea can expect to receive a reduction in their sentence of about one third. The court, however, should be free to increase or reduce that discount, as it deems appropriate.
In the magistrates courts, the principle of local justice administered locally has served us extremely well for centuries. Some offences are frowned on more in one area than in another, and local justices of the peace are best positioned to clamp down on an offence that is prevalent in a particular area. Although that system inevitably leads to an imbalanced approach across the country, in such instances a variable approach can be a positive thing.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley pointed out, justice must always be the primary goal in the judicial system. If we were to replace judges, magistrates and jurors with computers, we would have a more consistent approach—there is no doubt about that—but we would also have less justice. Whenever people deal with cases, there will inevitably be discrepancies in how they view the facts placed before them.
About 20 Acts of Parliament have changed sentencing practice over the past decade, and it is perhaps not surprising that our system is often confusing and unnecessarily complex. Perhaps an overarching approach is needed, not a series of ad hoc measures to amend the current system.
The system need not be unduly complicated. Sentences are normally straightforward, but the processes behind them are often baffling and confusing, and can lack the transparency that this debate is trying to find. The maxim that justice must be done and be seen to be done is as necessary now as it has ever been. Yet nowhere can the term “six months”, for instance, have so little correlation to that actual period as in a court of law. I have spent more than 20 years working in the criminal justice system, and I have lost count of the number of times I have seen defendants turn to their advocate as soon as they are given a term of imprisonment and ask, “How long is that? How long does that actually mean for me? I have been told it is 10 years, but how long does that mean?” Sentences should be closer to the term specified, and there should be far more transparency and honesty in sentencing. It undermines the courts, the police and victims if the sentence that a prisoner serves bears no relation to the term that he has been given in court.
There are so many early release schemes that I know of no lawyer who can accurately tell a defendant how long a sentence will equate to in actual time served. It is simply too complicated. When a formula is needed to work out how much of a sentence a prisoner will actually serve, we know that there is something wrong with our system. That is precisely what happens now. The discipline departments in prisons have to apply a formula to a sentence to work out what somebody’s earliest possible release date is. That highlights the problem in our current system.
Sentences are one thing, but there are many other things for the courts to consider. There is no merit in having an inconsistent approach to the enforcement of court orders. We should not have one criterion for enforcing community sentences in the midlands and another for the south, and fine defaulters should not be treated differently in one part of the country from another. Prison overcrowding in one area should not mean an earlier release for prisoners there than for those in other areas. However, for general sentences, we should allow some differences. We have to allow local courts to have a certain amount of flexibility. The message should go out from this House that this debate is not about controlling the courts but about delivering fairness for all. We should not micro-manage the courts but allow clarity to flourish more. Minimum sentences for gun possession have worked, not just because of the certainty and deterrence that they have provided but because courts retain an element of discretion.
In short, we need to get the right balance, and in doing so we need to strive for a court system that allows certainty in sentences, flexibility in process and fairness in outcomes to prevail.
Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con)
It is a great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford (Gareth Johnson). I agreed with many of the points that he so ably made based on his experience. It is easy to joke about the profusion of lawyers taking part in debates such as this, but in reality many of us stopped practising only within the past two years, before we came to this place. We therefore bring with us an abundance of experience and knowledge, especially those of us who were at the criminal Bar and both prosecuted and defended, which gave us an insight into cases from both perspectives. That is a great feature of the criminal Bar and, I hope Members will concur, adds to our ability to bring real experience and hopefully insight to this important debate.
I shall put my cards on the table. I practised at the criminal Bar for some 16 years until my election, and I am very proud of that. I should perhaps not put this too strongly, but it was one of the most rewarding and enjoyable jobs I have ever done, for all manner of reasons. As a member of the criminal Bar I defended far more than I prosecuted.
I should like to put it on record that I find it most peculiar that the Labour party, certainly in my constituency, seems to think it should criticise me for standing up in the House and talking about the law, particularly the criminal law. Often, I speak in defence of not only my own profession but solicitors, who are suffering in a way they have never suffered before due to the reduction in legal aid. I find it perverse that the Labour party attacks people such as me in those circumstances. It professes to be the party of the poor, the repressed, the deprived and some of the most needy in our society, but it is those very people whom so many at the criminal Bar and solicitors have represented for a long time, often with very little reward.
When I joined the criminal Bar, somebody said to me, “You are going to be a social worker wearing a wig.” Those of us who have been at the Bar or worked as solicitors and who have defended criminals will know from experience how often we go beyond the fee—and it is not a very great fee. We know how often we have given a fiver or £10 to clients who have no money in their pockets so that they can get home when they find themselves in the fortunate position—my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) will despair at this point—of not going into custody when they thought they might receive a prison sentence.
I once gave a client £10 so that he could catch the train back to Worksop. This perhaps shows my naivety. I took him to Nottingham railway station and assumed he would spend the money I had given him on his ticket. In fact, he went off and bought a large amount of heroin and was arrested by the police. Hon. Members can imagine my reaction when I found out what he had done with the money.
I digress from the subject of the debate, but I want to make the point that the criminal justice system could not operate without the Bar and solicitors who often go that extra mile, often at their own expense, to ensure that it works properly. I fully understand and appreciate that the legacy we have inherited means we have no option than to reduce the amount that goes into the legal aid pot, which means that members of the criminal Bar are seeing a reduction in their fees—that is in the context of having had no genuine increase since 1997. I know the Government can do nothing about that at the moment, but when the time comes we must ensure that those who do legal aid work are properly remunerated. It could be said that I have diverged from the subject of the debate, but I wanted to make that point.
Consistency in sentencing can be truly achieved only when the following occurs. It starts at the beginning. To achieve consistency in sentencing, we must ensure from the outset that there is a proper and full investigation of the allegation. That means that witness statements must be properly taken and that all relevant evidence must be properly gathered. A constituent who has come to me has quite properly complained following an assault allegation—she was the victim. She suffered cuts that required stitching to her face and a broken jaw, but the police did not collect her medical records despite the fact that she had signed the right form. She has now been told that the police are going to make the charge “common assault”. On the basis that what she told me is true, it is clear that the charge should be either for wounding or for a section 20 offence, or perhaps for an even greater offence. It was not a common assault, and it is clear that the police did not do a proper job in their investigation and in ensuring that all relevant evidence was available, which is important not just for the progression of the case, but so that the sentencing judge can pass the right sentence. In order to do that, we need to ensure that there is a full and proper investigation from the outset and that the right charge is reached. We also need to ensure that witness statements are properly taken, which includes, if appropriate, a victim impact statement.
My hon. Friend the Member for Dartford said that the previous Administration were overly prescriptive and mandatory—a long-standing complaint of many of us about their conduct of the criminal justice system. I do not want police officers to go out with a checklist of all the things they must do when they take a witness statement. I want them to be properly trained to be able to rely on their own plain common sense. I do not want them to be overly prescriptive and certainly not stereotypical.
In his statement the other day, the Secretary of State talked about the changes we intend to make to the compensation scheme. This might be difficult to understand, but he quite properly mentioned the fact that not all victims of crime look at the crime in the same way. I have been burgled more times than I care to remember; in some instances, that did not have a particularly upsetting effect on me, and I would be the first to say that, but on one occasion it upset me greatly because my grandmother’s engagement ring was stolen. I do not know the value of the ring, and it does not really matter; what mattered to me was my sentimental attachment to that piece of jewellery. On another occasion when my home was broken into, I found it distressing that somebody had been through items of a very personal nature in my study. On another occasion, nothing much was particularly disturbed, so the trauma, or the effect, was not as great. However, we cannot say everybody will be the same, because, as we all know, crimes come in all different shapes and sizes, and they affect each and every one of us differently.
Sir Alan Beith
Did the hon. Lady welcome, as we on the Select Committee did, the fact that the Sentencing Council was prepared to treat burglary as an offence against the person, as well as against property?
Anna Soubry
Absolutely. If I may say so, there was so much I agreed with in the right hon. Gentleman’s speech. From my short time on the Select Committee, I know he brings a huge weight of experience and plain, good common sense to his chairing of the Committee. I absolutely agree with what he says.
To be frank, I would never stand up and say we definitely want to keep the Sentencing Council. I know some of us disagree about this, but I always thought the Court of Appeal was a good place to determine the issues we are discussing, and I could see no good reason why that should not continue. However, we are where we are.
What we do know—this has already been mentioned—is that the sentencing judge will look at the aggravating and mitigating features in relation to every offence. It is therefore important that when the police go out and take witness statements, they make sure everything that should be in them is in them so the judge can pass the right sentence. If items of great sentimental value are stolen in dwelling-house burglaries, for example, that is an aggravating feature.
The same is true of trashing or ransacking the property, and of inducing fear in a particularly vulnerable person. One of the burglaries I suffered was at night-time, and my children were of an age where they were very frightened. They thought—this is common among children who have the misfortune to have their homes burgled at night—that the person would come back, and they were in fear of that. Such things must be in the witness statements so the judge can pass the right sentence. That will give us the consistency we want.
One of the things that is extremely annoying for somebody who has been the victim of a car crime is the fact that they lose their no claims bonus. There is also the huge inconvenience caused by the fact that their car has a broken window and that they will not be able to use it because it has to go off to the garage. Again, those are important aggravating features.
In offences of violence, there can be an assessment of the physical scarring that might remain, and of the pain and suffering the victim might have been caused, but their mental anguish must also be set out in detail so that the proper sentence can be passed.
I would go further and say that when police officers go out to get statements from witnesses, they should include in them the effect of a particular crime on the witness. The classic example is somebody who witnesses a fight in the street, which might be a particularly violent and unpleasant incident. That will have an effect on the witness, and if it does, it should be in the witness statement.
At the heart of good, consistent and transparent sentencing is an overriding and underlying belief in the fact that we should trust our judges. I say that with absolute certainty in one respect: if I had not come to this place, I would undoubtedly never have been made a judge. I am not, therefore, making these comments to curry favour with any judge. Hon. Members may not find this surprising, but the reason I would not have become a judge is that I fell out with so many judges.
Anna Soubry
The Solicitor-General makes an unfortunate intervention, because I did indeed have the great pleasure of appearing in front of him—I was going to reference him slightly later—and we certainly did not fall out. No doubt, though, some of his brother and sister judges would say that that was because I appeared in front of him only twice, and that had I done so several times, perhaps the outcome would have been different.
One of the problems that occurred under the previous Administration was that they began not to trust judges enough, which was a terrible mistake. My attitude is this: I would give the judges the powers that they need and then leave them to exercise their discretion. At the end of the day, most judges come to the bench after many years in practice—usually in the discipline in which they sit in judgment. I said that I was going to mention the Solicitor-General, and I know that he has sat as a recorder in the criminal division, even though that was not his area of practice. I am not trying to curry favour with him, but the fact is that many recorders do not come from the criminal Bar and did not work as criminal solicitors but nevertheless have the great ability and skills required to act in just as brilliant a way as any other judge who was at the Bar for 15 or 20 years. [Interruption.] I am glad to see him nodding in approval.
The point is that with few exceptions our judges are outstanding, having practised at the highest level and coming to the position after years of experience on the basis that they have the ability to exercise good and wise judgment. That is why, with few exceptions, I trust them, and those of us who have practised know that if a judge makes a mistake, the case can be referred to the Court of Appeal.
Our judges have training, and I give full credit to the previous Government for something that I noticed at the criminal Bar: a huge shift in judges’ attitude towards what we call domestic violence—an unfortunate term, because it is normally violence against women by somebody with whom they are either in a relationship or have been in a relationship. Undoubtedly, when I returned to the Bar about 18 or 19 years ago, some senior members of the Bar and judges just saw domestic violence as a bit of a domestic scuffle and not something to be dealt with or viewed as seriously as it is now. I give full credit to the work undertaken by the previous Government in that respect. I certainly saw a sea change among the judiciary, which was no longer going to tolerate any man even slapping his partner or previous partner. I saw that on a regular basis in the Crown courts in which I had the great pleasure to appear, and I give the previous Government full credit for that. That should give us confidence that our judges are properly trained and are more than able to pass the right sentences, as long as we trust them and enable them to use their discretion.
That, of course, was one of the great failings of IPPs. These sentences, introduced in the Criminal Justice Act 2003 to deal with defendants deemed to be dangerous, sounded like, and were, a very good idea. What could be more sensible than providing that a paedophile who had sexually assaulted a child and who had done the same thing previously would not only be sentenced for the outrage that they had committed against a child but that there would be a report on him—invariably it was a “him” as opposed to a “her”—specifically looking at whether he would pose a danger even after completing the determinate part of his sentence? If the report revealed that he had delusions and fantasies of a particularly vile and alarming nature, it was thought only right and proper that he be in custody, in prison, not just for the offence that he had committed but for the protection of the public—in this case, children—at large, because he posed a clear and obvious danger to those children.
In theory, therefore, the idea was wonderful. Many of us approved and agreed with the theory; however, I do not think that the legislation was ever properly looked at—I fear I am criticising both sides of the House for that. Indeed, we talked about the idea in robing rooms at the criminal Bar, and as we thought about it more, and then as it was rolled out, we could see its profound shortcomings. Because it was overly prescriptive, judges effectively had no discretion, so people were sent to prison—quite properly, because they had committed a serious offence—but then found themselves in custody with no time limit on their sentences and no idea when they might be released, on the basis that they were supposedly dangerous. However, that was often because the judge had no alternative but to making that finding, when the offender was clearly not dangerous in the terms that they have should been, as the sort of offender that I have described. Not only did those in custody not know when they were going to be released, but there were no courses and no proper treatment available for them. None of the things that should have been done to drill down into their offending were done, so people were literally—and still are—languishing in prison. With great respect to my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley, I find it perverse that Opposition Front Benchers should agree with that aspect. For a party that has always prided itself on the liberty of the individual and the rights of the prisoner, it is absolutely wrong to support a system that has people languishing in prison, year after year, without the treatment that they need.
Mr Slaughter
I am pleased to agree with the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) when, on occasion, he is right, but I do not exactly follow the hon. Lady’s argument. Is she saying that she objects to IPPs in principle or only to how they are working? If it is the former, we have a disagreement; if it is that IPPs have not worked perfectly, I would say that we made omissions in that respect. I advise her to have a look at the Government’s response to the Joint Committee on Human Rights report on the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill yesterday—which dealt with the point in detail—where the Government assert that they have resolved most of the problems with the administration of IPPs. If that is the case—and if she supports her own Government—why is she not now supporting them?
Anna Soubry
I am grateful for the information, and I will go away and look at it, but IPPs have just not worked. The legislation was flawed. Indeed, it was so flawed that after its introduction in 2003 there was a huge growth in the prison population. What did the then Government do? Did they take an honest approach and revisit their legislation, or did they take a different, simplistic approach and say, “Goodness me! There are too many people in prison. How can we bring the numbers down?”? They effectively amended the 2003 Act with fresh legislation in 2008, which made the situation even more perverse and wrong. What the then Government introduced in 2008 was a system whereby a finding of dangerousness could not be reached for someone who would not have got four years for their offence. Let me set out what that meant. I know of a case, which I worked on myself, where the trigger offence that had brought the offender—a man who was clearly a paedophile—before the sentencing judge did not warrant more than nine months to one year. I will not bore hon. Members with the details, but the judge was able to the look at the various reports on that man, which clearly showed that he was a danger to children, and he rightly decided on an IPP. However, after the Government changed the law in 2008, somebody like that man would now serve four and a half to six months, when that is exactly the sort of person who should be behind bars for a very long time.
Philip Davies
I have some sympathy with the idea that people should not be languishing in prison, not doing anything for years and years and not knowing when they might be released. However, surely my hon. Friend would agree that it is far better to say to somebody, “You will be released only after you have done something to address your offending behaviour,” to give them an incentive to do so, as an IPP does, than just saying, “You’ll be released after a certain period halfway through your sentence, irrespective of whether you’ve done anything to address your offending behaviour or not.”
Anna Soubry
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention and agree with him in this sense. It is not right for people for stay in prison without courses or the assistance that they need to address their offending, so that they can be released when they are no longer a danger. That is absolutely right. The problem is that those courses were certainly not provided by the previous Administration. As for release halfway through a sentence, I am very much with my hon. Friend on that for a number of reasons that other hon. Members have already discussed. I would like us to reach a situation whereby the judge can make it absolutely clear when sentencing how long somebody will spend in prison, which might involve changing the wording. If a judge says, “I am passing a sentence of two years; you will serve only one,” it immediately undermines confidence, particularly that of the victim, in the criminal justice system.
I accept the difficulties that we have with the budget, but I would like us to be in a position in which a person is given a sentence and serves that sentence. Perhaps the parole board might see fit to release them early if they make remarkable progress while serving their sentence, as happens with community sentences. In those cases, if someone is making good progress, the probation officer can go back to the court and ask for the sentence to be shortened. The person can then be released from the sentence, because the job has been done. I would like to see that happening. The present situation is a hangover from the previous Administration. Judges have been told, “You’ve got to say this. You must say that. This is the formula.” It is all too prescriptive. I want to see greater consistency and greater transparency; we need to trust our judges.
I hope that I have made it clear that I support the Government’s reforms, including the abolition of the IPP, and the new system that we want to introduce. I also want to make this point on transparency. I will be absolutely frank: I have always been deeply cynical about the introduction of television cameras into courts. However, I have been persuaded otherwise by the Stephen Lawrence trial, as it is called. The judge had allowed members of the press to tweet from the press gallery in the court, and that allowed people to be informed in a very positive way. I have also been surprised by the number of my constituents who have gone to the trouble to read not only the sentencing remarks in full but a further interlocutory matter that the judge had dealt with in relation to the evidence. Reading that material from beginning to end had a profound effect on the way in which they have perceived the case and on their understanding of the sentences.
On the basis that any televising would cover sentencing only, and that it would involve all the remarks, not just the edited highlights—with great respect to the popular press, that practice has, as the Lord Chancellor has said, led to much disenchantment with the system—I have come to the conclusion that it would be right to have cameras in court. It would be good for transparency, and I agree with the Lord Chancellor when he says that it would restore trust in the system.
The right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), who is no longer in his place, talked about early intervention. Under this Government, we are bringing together different strands from various Departments, including the Department of Health, the Department for Education and the Ministry of Justice, to look at this matter. We finally have a Government who are being tough on crime and particularly tough on the causes of crime.
Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)
It is a real pleasure and privilege to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), for whose work at the Bar I have great respect. I was a barrister for eight years. I prosecuted and defended at all levels, and I appeared at courts with my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford (Gareth Johnson) in our younger days. Having practised at all levels, including magistrates courts, Crown courts and the Court of Appeal, I want to stress that in any civilised society, there must be a right to a fair trial. That right is at the very heart our constitutional law, as set out in “Hood Phillips”. Related to that right is the issue of the competence of our judges. Having appeared before them at all levels, I can say that our judges—be they magistrates, district judges, Crown court judges, Court of Appeal judges or Supreme Court judges—are of the finest calibre. That supports the argument about consistency and transparency in sentencing.
Linked to that is the argument about checks and balances in our legal system. For example, I appeared at Maidstone Crown court many years ago representing a young defendant who was charged with six counts of supplying class A drugs, which one would have thought would get an automatic custodial sentence. However, taking account of the overall circumstances—the defendant was only 18, had been kicked out of home, had no job and no resources—it was decided that he got into supplying drugs as a runner in order to live day by day. In those exceptional circumstances, the Crown court judge ordered a community penalty and that he receive rehabilitation so that the young man could get somewhere in life rather than be stuck in a system in which he would go inside and come out as a hardened criminal. In that example, the checks and balances were clearly there. Within 90 days, the Attorney-General referred the case to the Court of Appeal, which then accepted the decision of the Crown court judge. It acknowledged that it was right and proper for the judge to show discretion in that case.
As I say, all the circumstances have to be looked at. As my hon. Friends the Members for Dartford and for Broxtowe rightly said, there is a sense in which not every case is a straitjacket. It comes down to having confidence in, and trusting, our judges. I made that point in my maiden speech, referring to the ability and the competence of our judges and the fact that they have to be trusted. Linked to that, I would say that rather than referring matters to the European Courts, they should be left to our Supreme Court and its judges—some of the highest calibre judges I have ever encountered.
Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con)
Will my hon. Friend comment on cases where the judges might have got something wrong and what routes of recompense there are in those circumstances? I speak as chairman of the all-party group on retail and business crime. I hear a number of instances from independent retailers where judges have given questionable summaries, so these retailers are unsure whether the justice system works in their favour. Let me cite one quick example, where a judge said that because the perpetrator of the crime stole scratch cards rather than real money, a reduced sentence was appropriate. The shop was particularly upset by the judgment but had no way of securing recompense by getting the sentence increased or getting justice from the system.
Rehman Chishti
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for that point, which I was going to come on to later, but will address now. When it comes to a court decision or sentence that people feel is not right, there are checks and balances. As I said, the Attorney-General can refer the matter to the Court of Appeal if the sentence appears unduly lenient. In the example my hon. Friend mentioned, it is right and proper to have the victim impact statement at the outset. The incident might seem trivial in some people’s eyes, but not to the retailer in this case for whom the circumstances were very important. We must ensure that the gravity of the circumstances is properly taken into account.
We have discussed checks and balances from the prosecution angle. Here, I would say there are provisions in statute—the Criminal Justice Act 2003—where the previous Government got it right in respect of checks and balances. This deals with the prosecutor’s right to appeal a case through a terminatory ruling to the Court of Appeal. I was involved in one of those cases. In the case of R and R at Harrow Crown court, a Crown court judge felt that gloves with lead in the middle of them did not constitute an offensive weapon—the same as knuckle-dusters—accepting that they were used to drive a Harley-Davidson. It was argued that these could not be offensive weapons per se and that there was no intent to cause injury. In that case, it was right and proper to use section 58(2)(b) of the 2003 Act to refer the matter to the Court of Appeal. The judge’s decision was overturned.
That brings me back to the point about consistency in judges’ decisions and the importance of having checks and balances—for example, at the Crown court where the Attorney-General can apply them to unduly lenient sentences. On the other hand, if a sentence is manifestly excessive, that, too, can be referred to the Court of Appeal. I would say that the system works well for both sides, ensuring consistency in sentencing from judges who, in my view, are some of the finest in the world and who have exhibited consistency in the cases that I have been involved in.
Linked to that issue are arguments about the Sentencing Council, which the Lord Chancellor and other Members mentioned. The composition of the Sentencing Council is the important point for me. We have referred to senior judges on it and we have mentioned people from Victim Support. It is entirely right and proper to have sentencing guidelines where there is experience at all levels.
The other point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Dartford was the need to ensure that there is consistency throughout the country. One member of the Sentencing Council, the hon. Mr Justice Globe, has practised on the northern circuit, while another, also an eminent member of the judiciary, has practised on the midlands circuit. There is a member from the Probation Service, and a member, Professor Julian Roberts, who is a leading academic. The integrity of this independent body is maintained when its members, including judges, convene from different parts of the country to ensure that the guidance that it issues reflects the views of its entire membership.
As I said to the Lord Chancellor, it is right for us to have a sentencing guidelines council. The fact remains, however, that these are only guidelines. At the time of the riots in August, I made clear my view that the firm sentencing of the judges was entirely appropriate, because those tragic events were not ordinary incidents. The Sentencing Council is there to set guidelines in relation to day-to-day offences, but I believe that judges are right to depart from such guidelines when they must deal with serious and extraordinary events.
We all remember the rhetoric of 1997: “Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime.” Ten years down the line, when half the total number of offenders were reoffending within a year, we looked for the key factor in terms of the causes of crime. I think that it was nonsense for the then Leader of the Opposition—subsequently Prime Minister in the Labour Government —to use the words “tough on the causes of crime”, given that events such as the London riots are often linked to causes such as the breakdown of the family and failure to provide the right support. The riots happened because society did not get it right and the Labour Government did not get it right. We know that alcohol is one of the key factors in crime, but the causes of crime were not dealt with in that regard. Instead, 24-hour alcohol licences were given out, which exacerbated the problem further.
I agree with what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) about the automatic release of prisoners halfway through their sentences. Earlier this year, I submitted a written question asking how many instances of bad behaviour there had been in 2010. I was told that there had been 11,500. Did those who had been responsible for that bad behaviour have to stay in prison for longer? The answer was no: they came straight out. That is clearly reminiscent of the last Government, who got it completely wrong. I suggest to the Solicitor-General that we should seek to ensure that if people are released halfway through their sentences, good behaviour should be taken into account. Indeed, that point is often raised by a great many judges.
When I mentioned early release to the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter), his argument was, “It was only a few days here and a few days there.” It is good that he has accepted that early release went on, but it was completely unacceptable for 80,000 people to be released from prison early under the last Government, for a number of reasons. A victim has plucked up the courage to go to court. The police have done their part, obtaining statements and tracking down the person responsible. There is either CCTV evidence or circumstantial evidence. There is a prosecutor who has prepared a brief, and there is a judge who has done his job and has passed sentence. That sentence is then undermined if someone is released early, or released early on curfew. In that respect, the last Government completely undermined our criminal justice system and people’s confidence in it.
I strongly agree with what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe. I strongly support what the Government are doing in not just looking at custody arrangements. Of course one has to consider custody when an offence is so serious that that is warranted, but it is crucial to look at underlying causes, and at skills and education. A lot of the people whom we are talking about cannot read and write, so it is no surprise that they go inside, come back out, commit a crime, and go back inside. We have to ensure that they have skills, so that when they come out, they can contribute to society; that is right and proper.
Linked to that is the issue of ensuring that people work while they are inside. I very much welcome the Lord Chancellor’s proposal that there be an offer of 35 hours’ work in prison; that is right and proper. The money that people earn in prison should go to the victim, so that when a judge makes an order for compensation at the outset of the sentence, the money is paid. That is better than saying to the victim, “I’m really sorry; the defendant is going into custody, and he has no money.” That is completely and utterly unfair to the victim. Under this proposal, the judge can give a sentence of custody plus compensation paid for through work carried out inside.
I very much welcome the reforms relating to knife crime and gangs—things by which all our constituencies have been affected, albeit at different levels; there might be more or less of them in different parts of the country. The Government are sending a clear message that knife crime will not be tolerated by introducing an automatic prison sentence for adults who use knives, or threaten to do so, and so endanger people’s lives. That is right and proper; it is what the public want, and I very much want the Government to introduce that.
I welcome the Government’s push towards ending the practice of releasing dangerous sexual and violent offenders halfway through their sentence without a Parole Board hearing. It is absolutely right and proper to protect the public—we have to do that—by ensuring that there is a Parole Board hearing and approval, so that we can be sure that the offender is no longer a danger to the public.
I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) has a detailed, lengthy argument to make; when I was at the Bar, I was taught that brevity is a virtue, not a vice, and I shall apply that principle. I have nothing more to say, other than that I very much support the Government’s proposed reforms to improve our criminal justice system and ensure consistency and transparency in our legal system.
Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
It is an honour to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti), who, although a fellow member of my chambers, is a far more distinguished barrister than I have ever been. He speaks with great authority. However, I do not wish to declare that legal interest, particularly; I want to declare as an interest the fact that I have been a victim, as has my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry). I have been burgled four times, twice in London and twice in Lincolnshire, and it has never been other than a completely traumatic, devastating experience. I apologise if that somewhat warps my judgment when it comes to burglars, but there it is. My experiences are similar to those of no fewer than 745,000 of my fellow citizens who, in 2010, were burgled and had their lives traumatised.
On the last occasion on which I was burgled, the burglars stripped some lead off the roof; fair enough, but they then came inside and stole the hot-water tank, without bothering to turn off the water—why should they? That would have been a kind gesture. The result was that the house was completely flooded. Everything was ruined, and my experience is not unusual nowadays. I do not accept the argument of the liberal elite—if I may use the sort of language used by my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies)—that there are nice burglaries and bad burglaries; all domestic burglaries are absolutely horrible, and the public are completely fed up with them.
The deterrent is simply not great enough. In 2010, there was a statistically significant increase of 14% in domestic burglaries, so it is not surprising that 60% of adults feel that crime has gone up since last year. We heard earlier that the public do not necessarily understand what is really going on, and that they read the popular press, but I trust the public. When there are 745,000 burglaries, they start to worry, and they feel under threat in their homes. That ruins their lives. Vulnerable, older, and poorer people feel that even more strongly. They cannot live in gated communities.
I suppose that the police tried their best when I was burgled, but there was no evidence that there was any follow-up, or that they were taking intelligence. They seemed to be overwhelmed. All they said to me is, “You have to have a burglar alarm fitted and fit more locks.” However, the poor simply cannot afford this. It is the poor and the old who suffer. Judges and we in this House have a duty to defend our people from being victimised in this way.
Philip Davies
I agree with everything my hon. Friend is saying. Is it not all the more terrible that 10% of all crimes and 20% of all burglaries are committed by people on bail? Given that, should not the Government be doing something to tighten up the bail rules, instead of making it harder for courts to remand people in custody?
Mr Leigh
I agree with my hon. Friend. I do not want to weary the House with too many figures, because then I will be accused of quoting statistics, which do not give the whole story. However, these figures are alarming and it is up to the Government to reply to them. As I have said, 48% of all burglars do not receive an immediate custodial sentence. Some 37% of burglars of private dwelling houses—the worst form of violation of our fellow citizens’ rights—do not receive a custodial sentence. Approximately 87% of custodial sentences for domestic burglary are for less than three years. In 2010, only 16% of those convicted of burglary were sentenced to more than 18 months in prison. In other words, only 16% were sent to prison, and a lot of them were out within nine months. We know that a house that has been burgled has a 20% chance of being burgled at least once more within a year.
Apart from the trauma and the violation of people’s rights and privacy, burglary costs insurers a staggering £370 million per annum. Members should not believe all those insurance adverts in which the kind insurance company comes in the next day and mends everything—that does not happen. As I and our fellow citizens know, it is hard going every inch of the way with these insurance companies.
What about the clear-up rate? The British crime survey shows that approximately 659,000 domestic burglaries were committed in 2009-10. Given that only 9,670 such offenders were convicted, the clear-up rate was a mere 1.4%. So, not only are many of the punishments derisory—someone who is convicted, if indeed they are convicted, will not go to prison for very long—but the clear-up rate is incredibly low and the police are obviously struggling to deal with the problem. As my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley said—the point he made bears repeating—according to Ministry of Justice figures for a particular year, 2,980 burglars with 15 previous convictions were not sent to prison. I hope the Minister will reply to that point when he sums up the debate.
We had an argument earlier about current sentencing guidelines. I quoted various figures to the Secretary of State during interventions, saying that only 48% of burglars go to prison, and he said, “I’m sorry, but my position is absolutely clear: I believe that if you burgle a private dwelling house, you should go to prison.” The purpose of my speaking in this debate is to try, in my own small way, to convince the Secretary of State, the judges and the whole system that there is a widespread and strong belief and understanding among our fellow citizens that someone who breaks into and steals from a private dwelling house will go to prison, and I want to drive that message home. However, I was told that sentencing guidelines—my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe spoke with great authority on this issue—suggest a community sentence for first-time offenders. They may have been convicted for the first time, but how many burglaries have they actually committed? We have no idea. We are talking about a community sentence—no prison sentence at all.
Currently, for a category 3, lesser harm or lower culpability domestic burglary—I do not accept this language, which is that of the Sentencing Council—the sentencing starting point is a high-level community order. Our fellow citizens will be astonished to hear that somebody can commit a domestic burglary and get a high-level community order. The suggested range goes from a low-level community order to a mere 26 weeks' imprisonment, which, as we all know, is nothing like 26 weeks' imprisonment. On top of that, criminals receive a guilty plea discount. I am sorry to have to say that we are simply not doing enough to grip this.
Mr Leigh
I shall give way in a moment, and I hope that the Minister will reply to this point. There are far too many domestic burglaries and people do not feel safe in their homes. The punishments are not sufficient and neither is the clear-up rate, and that has a major effect on the quality of life in this country.
The Solicitor-General
On my hon. Friend’s point about category 3 burglaries, is he suggesting that public policy should not allow any differentiation between domestic burglaries? For example, if in broad daylight the burglar puts his hand through an open window, steals a paperweight from the windowsill and walks off, should that be treated in the same way as a night-time domestic burglary in which an elderly couple are traumatised and frightened or—as happened in his case—the house is trashed? Is he saying that there should be just one category, burglary, and that the sentence should be prison full stop?
Mr Leigh
Of course I am not saying that and of course judges should have some discretion. There is a range of burglaries. It is not for me to lay down the law and to say that there should be a minimum sentence or what it should be. I want to drive home the point that there should be a general understanding among the law-abiding public that their homes will be protected, as there should be a general understanding among them and among the criminal classes of what will happen if someone commits any kind of domestic burglary. I do not accept the language, by the way. We have heard descriptions of burglaries before in which somebody puts their hand through a window and takes a paperweight, and we have to ask how many people are going around taking paperweights—I do not know. The language suggests that it does not really matter very much, but it does matter and it is important.
Of course, there must be differentiation, but my point is very important: I want a general understanding of what will happen if a person violates someone’s privacy and causes them trauma. I suspect that a lot of the time what is being stolen is not just a paperweight but something that is very personal and precious. It goes back to what my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe said about her grandmother’s wedding ring. It might not be worth much, but the experience was traumatising. I want to drive home the point that if someone goes into somebody’s private house and takes something, they should end up in prison.
The Solicitor-General
My hon. Friend has sat down already, so that is all right. I am trying to extract clarity from him. I want him to make the best case he can, but unless he speaks clearly it is difficult to respond in a way that does his argument justice. That was why I asked him the question and he has provided me with an answer.
Mr Leigh
I thank the Minister. We are at idem and I hope that the Government will now make an announcement in accordance with what I have been arguing for the past 10 minutes or so.
I want to drive home the point that it is the poor and vulnerable who suffer. A family with a household income of less than £10,000 is more than twice as likely to be burgled as one with a household income of £40,000 to £50,000. As a House of Commons, we are right to have this debate today and to raise this issue. I understand that the Government will make an announcement this afternoon on spent convictions—I have been told by the media that that will happen, but I do not know whether that is right. At the end of this debate and over the next few weeks and months, I want to elicit a response from the Government that shows that they are seized of the problem and are prepared to put sufficient resources into clearing up domestic burglaries through the policing system and to encourage the courts to take seriously the crime of burglary, of all crimes, because that is one thing that our fellow citizens want more than anything else.
Paul Maynard (Blackpool North and Cleveleys) (Con)
I must apologise to my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) for not being a lawyer but daring to participate in this debate. I hope he will forgive me. I must also apologise for not living in Oxfordshire or in a nine-bedroom mansion. I live in a two-bedroom ex-council flat; I hope that does not exclude me from this debate.
I represent the fourth most deprived Conservative-held seat in the country, and I hope that allows me to participate in the debate because, as my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) has just pointed out, it is the poor who suffer most as a consequence of crime.
I should like to question some of the comforting nostrums that have been floating around the Chamber. Those who have read their New Statesman this morning might call it “reassurance” politics—saying things to make ourselves, rather than those we seek to represent, feel better. That is my primary concern. Language is crucial in this debate. We have to be judicious and proportionate in everything we say, but I sometimes fear that is rather difficult.
I also believe that victims have to have a crucial role in this process, not because I believe, as I fear some do, that victims will automatically demand the harshest judgment possible—far from it. We can all swap polling and survey evidence, but I want to highlight a survey I saw from 2009, which said that only 11% of the victims questioned felt that sending more offenders to prison would “do most” to reduce crime. That is not to say that people should not go to prison or that prison should not be unpleasant, but it does indicate that the comforting nostrum that all victims are slavering for the chance to see those who have caused them harm swing high simply is not the case.
I commend the Government for publishing more local, transparent data on sentencing. That is vital to improving not just transparency but public confidence in the system. I firmly believe that a transparent and consistent sentencing policy will be possible only if we start to reduce the prison population. Unlike some hon. Members here today, I do not believe we should seek to turn this nation into a gulag with as many people as possible crammed in.
Sir Peter Bottomley (Worthing West) (Con)
My hon. Friend and I heard the interesting and often entertaining speech of our hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies), who mentioned the Netherlands. Does my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) agree that if the Netherlands can close eight prisons because they do not have enough prisoners to fill them, and if their apparent crime rate and their apparent imprisonment rate are half of ours, on a population basis, we have a lot to learn from those who agree that we need to cut crime, cut the number of victims and cut the number of people in prison as well?
Paul Maynard
I agree with my hon. Friend entirely. I have always believed there should be a strong correlation between the amount of crime being committed and the number of people being sent to prison. If one is going in one direction, I fail to understand why the other is not going in the same direction, but it is not. There are now twice as many people in prison as when Michael Howard announced that “prison works”. I therefore believe that for certain categories of prisoner it is essential to look at alternatives to custody that are robust without being harsh and that have lower reoffending rates. Indeed, the Lord Chancellor pointed out that that was one of the crucial indicators he had placed at the heart of the Ministry of Justice’s work. In my view, that means we should start to focus not only on how many people reoffend after longer sentences but at what we mean by a short sentence and what is an appropriate sentence.
I might just about agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley that sentences of less than 12 months are almost decorative. People at the young offender institutions I have visited say that the most they can do is fix people’s teeth in that time, if they are lucky. Perhaps the shortest sentence should be 12 months, but that does not absolve us from trying to confront what we do in the community. I do not support the idea that anyone who is found guilty should be sent to prison, no matter what their crime. That simply is not the way to go. Within the youth justice system, there has been a 30% fall in the number of children in custodial settings without any increase in youth crime. That is an important example to which we should hold true. It is possible to reduce incarceration levels while keeping crime levels low. Once again, the two are not connected. Indeed, the Government have been able to cancel plans to build a new young offender institution at Glen Parva, thereby creating savings for the taxpayer.
My hon. Friend the Member for Shipley was rather dismissive of my participation in the 301 project. I hope he is not similarly dismissive of our participation in “No Turning Back”; indeed, perhaps he is a fellow member. I hope he shares my concern for effective financial management and good stewardship of taxpayers’ money. One of my key concerns about the approach to criminal justice that he advocates is that it pays no attention to the cost to the public purse.
I make no apology for that consideration. Only yesterday, we spent time agonising over the Welfare Reform Bill and the deeply difficult cuts that we are having to make that will affect some very vulnerable people. Those are difficult decisions, which we do not take with any great pleasure. If we give that level of scrutiny to our welfare system, I strongly believe that it is incumbent on us to look with equal forensic attention at how much we are spending on our prison and criminal justice systems.
Philip Davies
I asked the Ministry of Justice what was the highest number of crimes that somebody had committed while still not being sent to prison—the number of previous convictions. The answer was 578. Somebody with 578 previous convictions was not sent to prison. That was 300 for shoplifting, 131 for drunk and disorderly behaviour, 79 for public disorder, 18 for breach of bail, 14 for criminal damage, nine for assault, eight for robbery, four for possessing an offensive weapon, one for actual bodily harm and 14 others. Does my hon. Friend agree that that person should still not have been sent to prison?
Paul Maynard
When I see my hon. Friend flicking through sheets of paper, I can always guarantee that a demon statistic is on its way to disprove the point being made by a hapless Back Bencher. Such is my lot.
The average cost of a year in prison is £45,000. Effective, intensive community sentences can cost as little as £5,000. I stress the word “effective”, because I accept that much of our community sentencing is not very good at all. It does not do what it is supposed to do and is regarded as a joke, but there are intensive alternatives that have been shown to work. That is where we should focus our attention, not just on banging up everyone who has ever looked at us askance. Indeed, in a world governed by my hon. Friend, I might fear for my own liberty. It would be deeply concerning to end up in the Shipley gulag.
If I understand the complex legal world correctly, a community order can comprise 12 different elements. Some of them are relatively familiar: for example, curfews and unpaid work, which make up slightly over 30% of many community orders. What concerns me is that the more technical, specialist and difficult aspects make up less than 1% of the orders that are issued. The mental health treatment requirement is used in less than 1% of community orders, yet 40% of the offenders we are discussing have been judged as having a mental health need. There are numerous problems with that component. A high threshold is set, which requires a psychiatric report that can often result in a wait of up to 16 weeks. That may deter many magistrates from imposing an order. It also requires the psychiatrist to offer a specific course of treatment, which may not be easy to arrange, thus again deterring a magistrate from employing the order.
What worries me more than anything else is that magistrates might not fully understand the range of disposals they can use. All too often people in the criminal justice system tell me that if only they had known about this or that type of order they could have given the offender a more appropriate sentence. If I have one incy-wincy, teeny-weeny criticism of the Government, it is that cuts in training for magistrates might make it harder for them to be aware of what is available in their local area.
There are particularly good models in existence, such as the North Liverpool community court where judges remain actively involved in the offender’s future post-sentence. They can see whether the sentence they impose actually represents punishment of the offender and solves their many problems.
I must also refer, as many Members have, to restorative justice, or youth conferencing as we have seen it in Northern Ireland. It demonstrates that there is innovation out there that can deliver better reoffending figures than a custodial setting. I want the Government to follow up their work on the intensive alternative to custody pilot that was run in Manchester. They published an excellent analysis of the pilot in July 2011, but it made it clear that it was very difficult to come up with robust reoffending figures for those who had gone through the system. As those of us who participate in these debates know, winning public confidence requires robust data showing that new, innovative methods of disposal actually work. It is difficult to provide robust figures for the intensive alternative to custody.
We need to understand reoffending rates far better, because these models can offer much greater cost-effectiveness. As I said earlier, we cannot look only at the criminal justice and public spending elements as if we are just warehousing criminals for two years or so for public protection, because they will just emerge ready to reoffend, and that will not provide the satisfaction—I use the word in precise terms—that a victim deserves.
Despite the fall in child custody, one in 10 prisoners are still in the 18 to 20 age group. Admittedly, this has spiked because of the riots, quite correctly in my view. However, the independent panel that looked into the riots identified the lack of support for young people moving from the youth justice system to the adult justice system as a contributory factor to the occurrence of the riots, which is worth bearing in mind. The Barrow Cadbury Trust found that almost half of those in the 18 to 20 age group were in local authority residential care and 40% had suffered some sort of domestic violence. The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions has stated in a Centre for Social Justice report that
“increasing penalties for offenders will do little to stop the next generation of prisoners and unlock the cycle of deprivation which so many young people are trapped in, unless it is accompanied by an attempt to tackle the underlying drivers of crime.”
That is why I am concerned that any model that focuses simply on imprisonment and increasing the number of prisoners will not solve the wider problem we face.
We all age physically at different speeds, but we also age emotionally at different speeds. The human brain is not mature until the mid-20s—I suspect that for certain Members it might be much older, but I do not dare to speculate. It is worth looking at the model used in Germany, where those in the 18 to 21 age group are assessed for maturity. If the individual has a communication delay or learning disabilities, for example, there is the option that they will be disposed of through the youth justice process. That has been shown to work well in solving individual problems.
It is also important that our political rhetoric in the Chamber, on both sides, is mature when we discuss criminal justice. The Prison Reform Trust—I declare an interest as a trustee—recently published a report examining the reasons for the decline in child imprisonment. It found that politicians had played no role in that at all. Indeed, the best it could say about us was that we did not impede the process. I welcome the fact that the Government and others are now rejecting the easy, knee-jerk options. The Mayor’s strategy on youth crime, for example, was notably mature and robust in how it sought to tackle the issue. Similarly, the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill has made great strides in the right direction, although I am sure that we would want to see some of them move more quickly. I commend the Sentencing Council for the judicious work it has done so far, and I congratulate the Opposition, empty though their Benches are, on having done the right thing in setting it up.
In conclusion, transparency and consistency in sentencing can be achieved only by clarity of purpose, and by an iron will not to use sentencing policy to demonstrate other supposed political virtues. We do not need to be harsh to be tough, and we must never forget that victims are humans and have needs. To be a victim of crime is more than a financial event; it is a deeply upsetting and emotional experience.
Equally, we must never forget that perpetrators of crime are also human beings. Often, they are perpetrators not because they are evil—and I do believe in evil, and that there are evil people who should be in prison—but because the state has failed them at multiple stages of their life, almost from birth, in residential care homes, education and many other settings. Those people are on the conveyor belt to crime because we in this House have failed them time and again. To put such people in prison and merely wash our hands of them is not a solution to the state’s failure to care for the most vulnerable in society.
Rory Stewart (Penrith and The Border) (Con)
I rise with an enormous amount of insecurity because I am talking to so many learned friends on a subject about which I know so little—I feel a little like a woolly mammoth staggering into a law library. My speech is really a series of hints followed by guesses, with perhaps some questions about the relationship of the Sentencing Council to our constitution.
It strikes me that there is a danger with the Sentencing Council that I would love to hear the Government address. It seems—if I may use portentous language—to be a threat to the liberty of Englishmen. I say that deliberately because it does not, of course, apply to Scotland, and I would not presume to speak for Wales. The Sentencing Council is a threat to the liberty of Englishmen because despite its best intentions—we have heard wonderful stuff about predictability, transparency, consistency and public trust—it is attempting to step on sacred ground. It is going where the state and administrators should not go; it is trying to cross the threshold of the courtroom door.
We in Parliament are connected to many things that are to do with the law. We create the law, and we define crimes and the factors relevant to them. We can even state the maximum sentence—or, in exceptional circumstances the minimum sentence—for a particular crime. We should not, however, become involved—and I fear that the Sentencing Council is involved—with the exact processes and factors that operate within the courtroom itself, and in particular with the independence and power of the jury and the judge.
We have heard a certain amount about the independence of the judge, but the most important point concerns the jury, which has a direct interest in knowing the connection between its verdict and the judgment reached. It is difficult for it to see that connection, however, in the current world of the Sentencing Council, which is an astonishingly opaque universe that might appeal to a management consultant or to a Taylorist soap factory. For example, in the case of grievous bodily harm, the Sentencing Council attempts to define nine aggravating factors, three statutory aggravating factors and 25 additional factors, and then to churn the whole thing through a sausage factory of nine different steps until a judgment is produced through that complex algorithm. How is the jury expected to understand the consequences of its verdict on such a judgment?
Purists may say that such things are none of the jury’s concern, and that the jury does not need to know the sentence as its concern is merely with the verdict. However, that has never been true in English common law, which from the beginning has contained the notion of pious perjury—in other words, the jury’s ability not only to determine the verdict, but to have an influence on the sentence. That was important, of course, when the death penalty attached to basic crimes, and it is still important today when we consider issues such as assisted suicide. It is a very important part of our liberty that the jury retains the discretion to affect the decision.
The second set of problems with which we are dealing concerns the independence of the judge. The jury is the preservation of our liberty, but the judge also has two important hands that are manacled by the Sentencing Council. The first is his ability to reach a decision based on the complexity of an individual case. The algorithms produced by the Sentencing Council—the lists of nine or 25 factors—are simply, in its own words, “non-exhaustive” lists of the factors that a judge is supposed to take into account. He is supposed to recognise the individuality of the crime, and the nature and history of the criminal. Those are the things for which we employ a judge—the things that a human is better able to provide than a machine or some checklist produced by the Sentencing Council.
The deeper, bigger problem is that the judge is not simply involved in a forensic investigation. It is not simply a question of fact or the analysis of evidence; at its deepest level, it is a question of morality and philosophy. When the judge determines a sentence, he is supposed to take on board not simply the crime and the history of the criminal but all the issues that we have heard about today—deterrence, public protection and justice in its broadest sense. They are not instrumental or factual questions but normative questions of morality and philosophy. Those things cannot be outsourced to a Sentencing Council that wishes us to tick boxes.
The defence of the Sentencing Council—that the guidelines are not mandatory—is of course deeply disingenuous. It is only under the most exceptional circumstances that judges can depart from them. Let us therefore remember that the reason why we have for so long protected the independence of the jury and the judge in English common law from exactly that type of administrative state interference is that we are English, not French. Such interference is a very Napoleonic approach, implying that the administrative state, with its astonishing mathematical formulae and algorithms, can generate the appropriate sentence within the hallowed space of the courtroom.
We must fight against that, because from the very foundation of our jury system, the basic principle of English common law has pushed against the idea of learned experts with their technocratic micro-management and instead recognised, since the early mediaeval period, the importance of even semi-literate jurors. The qualities that we look for in justice are not those of mathematical precision and science but those of common sense, human relationships, understanding and fellow feeling. In the judge, we look not simply for his learned nature, but for his compassion, philosophical insight and morality.
I conclude with a small reference to Blackstone. However convenient the new methods of trial may at first appear—indeed, all arbitrary methods are convenient at their first appearance—let it be remembered that the delays and minor inconveniences in the forms of our justice are the price that a free nation pays for its liberty in more substantial matters.
Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. Following remarks today by the United States Defence Secretary Leon Panetta that US forces in Afghanistan will step back from their lead combat role by the end of 2013, Downing street appears to have announced a similar policy for British troops at its press briefing this morning. Surely that should have been first announced to Parliament. Has Mr Speaker been approached by the Foreign Office, the Ministry of Defence or even the Prime Minister’s office saying that the Government wish to make a statement to Parliament either today or, at the very latest, on Monday?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Thank you, Mr Spellar, for forward notice of that point of order. I have not received any information that the Prime Minister or any other Minister intends to make a statement today. Should that change, Members will be notified in the usual way.
Priti Patel (Witham) (Con)
It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart)—he is a most learned friend—who gave a great philosophical and moral insight into sentencing decisions and the factors involved.
This debate is long overdue and a range of views have been aired. I welcome the debate partly because it gives me an opportunity to commend the Government’s approach to their victims strategy. I have had the privilege of engaging with the Ministry of Justice on its “Victims Matter” policy, including through a ten-minute rule Bill I sponsored at the end of last year.
There is a degree of consensus in the House this afternoon that far more needs to be done to support victims in light of the consistency and transparency of sentencing, and, importantly, to rebalance the criminal justice system, so that there is not a disproportionate focus on the offender and so that due consideration is given to the victims of crime. It is obvious that the Government’s focus and what they have done are welcome and good steps in the right direction. Naturally, some of the Government’s proposals will need careful consideration. I hope Ministers and officials engage constructively with Victim Support and other organisations to ensure that victims services are improved and enhanced.
As has been said, sentencing is a part of the justice system in which victims are forgotten, yet sentencing is important to them. Victims of crime want offenders to face the consequences of their actions. As my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) has said, there is balance. Offenders must take on the full consequences of their action through punishment, and we must ensure that sentences reflect the crime that has been committed while providing the offender with an appropriate degree of punishment and rehabilitation.
That is partly why victims of crime, and certainly those I have met through my constituency work and those I have engaged with through wider dialogue through, for example, the all-party parliamentary group feel frustrated, angry and disfranchised, which is a good word to use in respect of victims in the justice system. They feel that they are ignored and that the emphasis is placed far too much on the offender. Sadly, there are far too many examples of that. There has been much commentary this afternoon on the media reporting of cases, but I want to mention one case reported earlier this month. Josephine and Douglas Manwaring wrote a victim impact assessment to call for the criminal who brutally murdered their daughter 20 years ago to rot in prison. The case was harrowing, but the bureaucrats involved tried to censor their views from the Parole Board considering the murderer’s release. Those actions were totally unacceptable, and I trust that the Justice Secretary took robust action to ensure that those bureaucrats do not take it upon themselves to suppress victims in future. Victims must have a voice.
In another well documented case in Essex, victims of crime were completely circumvented and ignored in the sentencing of a prolific offender, Bradley Wernham. He was eventually apprehended after committing more than 600 offences, but when his case came to court, the victims were not given the chance to have a say. Instead, officials and the court refused to lock him up, and he went on to reoffend. The court decided not only to give him a community sentence, but to give him the usual benefits that come with it. It became a social experiment. Many of my constituents described his treatment as bribing him not to reoffend. Needless to say, the experiment backfired, and dozens of crimes later, he was eventually put behind bars. I emphasise that throughout the process, victims had no voice in the decisions and were never engaged.
The Justice Secretary and the wider Ministry of Justice team will share my concerns about such situations. Although the new reforms will take time to be effective, it is important that the Ministry reiterates to the courts, and to all those involved in the justice system, that victims must have a voice. They must be put first, especially in sentencing.
I want the Government to go further in keeping the public safe when persistent offenders are sentenced. In 2010, 651 offenders received between five and nine community sentences, while 10 offenders received between 10 and 14 community sentences. Those 661 offenders were given more than five chances to rehabilitate, but they still pursued a life of crime. In 2009, offenders subject to community orders committed more than 18,000 serious violent and sexual offences, including 172 sexual offences against children. Those figures are truly astonishing. They demonstrate that far too many criminals are being allowed to remain in the community, where they are reoffending and causing misery for their victims, when they should be locked behind bars to keep the public safe.
It is not just offenders on community orders who are continuing their criminal ways. Figures from 2009—again, Labour was in power—show that 21,000 criminals reoffended within one month of receiving a caution or an out-of-court disposal. I appreciate that there are strains on our prisons and that the previous Government left behind an appalling legacy, which this Government are seriously attempting to deal with, but when people are reoffending at such prolific rates, our courts must be empowered to imprison the most dangerous and persistent offenders. The Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill gives some reassurance that that can happen. In particular, I welcome the policy to remove some prisoners’ automatic right to be released after serving just half their sentence in prison. However, I urge the Justice Secretary to be firm with the judiciary over the protection of the public.
Some really shocking examples have come to my attention of criminals being let out early only to reoffend. I have a string of examples, and we have heard others today. The point, however, is that public protection should always come first. We have heard that our prisons are straining at full capacity and that we must do more on rehabilitation, and I completely support that, because the cost of reoffending has been far too high. Colleagues on both sides of the House recognise that the system is completely unsustainable, given the figures for reoffending, the cost to the public purse and the cost of the prison system and the criminal justice system. More has to be done to make sure that resources are targeted appropriately in prisons to prevent reoffending.
We have had plenty of figures, including Ministry of Justice figures—I hope they are reliable figures—indicating that a good degree of taxpayers’ money is being spent on prisoner education. That is, of course, welcome, but we should spend that money in a targeted way to ensure that we can turn around offenders’ lives. The rehabilitation revolution and the proposals in “Breaking the Cycle” are absolutely targeted at doing that.
I firmly believe that prison has a role to play as a strong deterrent. We must ensure that our prisons work and that they do what it says on the tin. The Government’s focus on reoffending and breaking the cycle of reoffending is absolutely key. We must make sure that resources are targeted in the right way to deal with the previous Government’s dreadful legacy in the criminal justice system. We must do what needs to be done, protect the public and start turning around the lives of many of these persistent reoffenders.
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
I refer the House to my entry in the Register of Members’ Financial Interests.
The sentencing process will always be imperfect and flawed because it comes at the end of a process that starts with a crime being committed, a wrong being done, resulting in damage, death or injury, and whatever the sentencing process contributes, that wrong can never be put entirely right: the family of the victim of somebody who has caused death by dangerous driving, sitting in court, will never be able to recover what they have lost; the partner and children of a householder murdered in the course of a burglary will never be able to recover what they have lost; the victims of a household burglary, examples of which we have heard today, will never be able to recover what they have lost.
It is wholly wrong, therefore, for legislators, judges or anyone else involved in the process to claim too much of the sentencing process or suggest that it can right the social ills of our country. It can never do that. As my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) reminded us, its function is more limited but still important, bearing in mind the duty of the state and the Government to protect the public. That is one of the functions of sentencing. The others are to punish offenders; where appropriate, to offer the hope of rehabilitation to offenders; to reduce reoffending; and to deter others. Those are the functions of sentencing, and we lose sight of them at our peril.
To be fair to the previous Government, they enshrined those principles in law, through the Criminal Justice Act 2003, which was perhaps one of the few wise decisions that they took. It seemed to me, and many others involved at the heart of the system, that many of the previous Government’s decisions were based on precious little evidence or analysis. I listened carefully to my hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel) as she explained, as she always does, the case for victims of crime. As someone who was part of the system, as a lawyer and part-time judge, I know that it is easy to overlook victims in the process, because it is the state taking action against the individual, with the victim a mere player—a witness, if you like.
Those old nostrums no longer stand the test of time, which is why there is much merit in what my hon. Friend said about the voice of victims. Hence, I am a passionate supporter of restorative justice. Having seen the limitations of the court system and understood the lack of control that victims feel, I see in restorative justice a chance for those victims to regain control of the situation. Only a few months ago, I heard from the victim of a double rape, who told me and a rapt audience of about 100 people in my constituency about the first time she gained control of the situation. Having been brutally raped, she gave evidence in a trial that resulted in a successful conviction, but—understandably, perhaps—she was told at the end of the trial, “Thank you, you were a brilliant witness. That’s all.”
It might have been all for the criminal justice system, but it was not all for her, because she had to live with the consequences of what had happened—her job over, her family broken up, her life changed utterly. She said that when she met the perpetrator of the rape in prison, for the first time she had control over events. She felt that she was in the driving seat, that she was dictating the process and that she, although never being able to obtain full closure, was for the first time able to explain to the perpetrator of this dreadful crime the effect it had had on her. That is why I believe in restorative justice, and why I am delighted that the Government are committed to rolling out and enhancing this aspect of our system.
The Sentencing Council has come in for a degree of criticism today, and rightly so. My hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border reminded us, most eloquently, that to reduce sentencing to a desiccated calculating exercise would be wholly wrong. Judges have to bring with them that element of humanity that is part of the human condition. When you sit in judgment on your fellow man or woman, Mr Deputy Speaker, you have to look them in the eye and judge them as one human being over another. Anyone who tries to rationalise that or limit those decisions to mere rationality does the system a disservice; indeed, they put it in danger. That is why we must never reduce sentencing to mere algorithmic calculation. However, that is the danger of the formulae that have been used in a number of guidelines issued by the Sentencing Council.
I enjoyed challenging Lord Justice Leveson about such matters when I described the new assault guidelines as the judicial equivalent of that game show “The Krypton Factor”—you may remember it, Mr Deputy Speaker, from some years ago—where hapless contestants had to crawl through an assault course and be challenged in a range of activities that seemed to baffle them and the presenter. My challenge was rebuffed, but I renew it in the Chamber today, because I firmly believe that the danger of guidelines is that because departing from them without proper explanation is a ground for appeal, they effectively fetter the discretion of sentencers. I have no problem whatever with trying to achieve a consistency of approach; and, to be fair to the right hon. Lord Justice Leveson, he agrees with that. He would be horrified if he thought that the courts system was somehow being reduced to mere arithmetic and calculation. However, the danger remains that with an over-emphasis on the guidelines—let us not forget that the court must, not “may”, have regard to the guidelines—we become over-prescriptive in sentencing.
Rory Stewart
Just to expand on that point, does my hon. Friend agree that, as the US Supreme Court found in the case of Booker and Fanfan, the distinction between mandatory sentencing guidelines and purely advisory guidelines is misleading and dangerous? As he is implying, what appear to be simply suggestions operate in practice as mandatory sentences.
Mr Buckland
That is absolutely right. We are often told that guidelines are not tramlines, but my worry is that as we develop the system, that will increasingly become the case, which is a matter of legitimate concern to us all. My hon. Friend rightly reminded us earlier about the historic role of the jury. In fact, it is interesting to remind oneself that in addressing juries, counsel will be enjoined not to talk to them about the likely sentence that may be passed on the offender, because that is to trespass not only on the function of the judge, but on the function of the jury. My hon. Friend is quite right to introduce into the debate that element of realism, common sense and public experience that juries bring to the court system. That is why they are there, why the system works and why we as parliamentarians support it, and vigorously so.
Having criticised some of the Sentencing Council’s functions, let me commend its research work. One of the better things that it has done is to start the process of looking at the decisions that are made in our Crown courts up and down the land, and to commission research on the attitude of the general public to sentencing. There are two reports in particular that I think the House would be interested to hear about, one of which I referred to in an intervention on my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies). The report commissioned by the Sentencing Council and published in May last year by Ipsos MORI conducted a survey of just under 1,000 members of the public and interviewed offenders and victims of crime. Perhaps inevitably—but for the first time based on empirical evidence—the report quite rightly pointed out a number of key things, including that the public perceive the system as being too lenient, but that some of their concerns are allayed once they have a greater knowledge of the workings of the sentencing system. The points that have been made about greater transparency and awareness, and about the televising of proceedings, are all founded on the research that has been carried out. It is plain and simple: if we give the public a greater understanding of the system, they will give the system greater support.
I was fascinated by the public’s view on the reduction of a sentence in return for a guilty plea. They feel that we, the lawyers, are getting it back to front. They would understand and appreciate the system better if, instead of reducing sentences and giving people credit for pleading guilty, the court were to give longer sentences to those who plead not guilty and string the process out, only to be convicted at the end of a trial. They do not like the notion that offenders are somehow being rewarded for having admitted their guilt. That was a fascinating insight that we, as legislators, should bear in mind. Indeed, the Sentencing Council should also take it into account when it reviews the system of credit being given for a guilty plea.
Anna Soubry
Does my hon. Friend agree that the public perhaps do not understand that the courts give credit for a guilty plea because it spares the cost, and the trauma to the witnesses and victims, of a trial? Furthermore, if someone has admitted to having committed a crime, they stand a much better chance of being rehabilitated and helped, so that they will not go on to commit more offences.
Mr Buckland
My hon. Friend is right. The report found that there was an appreciation of the economic and emotional benefits of early guilty pleas. However, the public preferred the argument that guilty pleas spare the victims trauma; they were somewhat resistant to the economic, pounds, shillings and pence argument. That is quite understandable, given that members of the public view sentencing and the other criminal justice procedures with the utmost seriousness. To them, public protection through the criminal justice system is second only to military matters such as the defence of the realm—my hon. Friend the Member for Beckenham (Bob Stewart) has arrived in the Chamber at just the right moment—and is a matter of the utmost seriousness.
Other work has been commissioned by the Sentencing Council, and it has caused a bit of angst among judges, because they have to fill in forms after every sentence—[Interruption.] I hear involuntary groans in the Chamber at that. For the first time, the courts in England and Wales are being asked to provide a wealth of evidence about what factors and influences are taken into account when those decisions are made. The first report was published in October 2011, and it covers the six-month period from October 2010 to the end of March 2011. The results bear close scrutiny.
The survey covered many hundreds of cases. When studying previous convictions, it found that 78% of offenders with 10 or more previous convictions taken into account by the court were sent to immediate custody. That is a significant and reassuring statistic. It also found that 59% of offenders with one to three previous convictions were also sent to immediate custody, and that 49% of offenders had no previous convictions taken into account when their sentence was determined. Those facts need to be stated. For the first time, there is an emerging body of evidence to show what influences judges and what is going on in our Crown courts.
On the subject of discount for guilty pleas, the survey found that 69% of those who pleaded guilty received a full discount; 12% received a discount of between 20% and 32%; 8% received a discount of between 11% and 20%; and 8% received a much lower discount. That shows, in my view, that judges are using their discretion within the guilty plea discount system and are not formulaically applying the guidelines as laid down by what I think was the Sentencing Advisory Council in a previous incarnation of the Sentencing Council. We have started to create a body of evidence, although we still have a long way to go in working out what decisions are made.
I finish where I started. This is a human system, and it will always be an imperfect system, but if we rob of the system of its humanity, we are doing a disservice to our fellow citizens.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
I am grateful to be called to address the House on this important subject. I am minded of the observation of my hon. Friend the Member for Shipley (Philip Davies) that this debate might become a bit like a lawyer’s dinner. I have never been to a lawyer’s dinner because I am not a lawyer, so there will be no comments from me about the law. However, I think it is important to raise the issue of what people perceive to be going on in our systems.
Oddly enough, one of the first things I did when I became the Member of Parliament for Stroud was to campaign to save the magistrates court—and we successfully managed exactly that. I had to go to see what I was saving, and that was my first trip to a court. I do not expect to go to court in any capacity other than as an Member of Parliament showing interest. That magistrates court showed me just how detailed the thinking of the magistrates is when they decide how to deal with the people coming before them. I was impressed by the quality of advice they sought and by the advice they were able to give themselves. I was also impressed that young children regularly came to the court, as organised by Gloucestershire magistrates, to make them more familiar with the court and court processes.
That brings me to the first point I want to ram home. We need to understand that there are a large number of cases, that the public cannot know everything about any of them and that the public will certainly not have a proper grasp of the nature of the deliberations throughout a case. The Secretary of State for Justice quite properly acknowledged that point in his opening speech.
That leads us on to problems with the media and their gung-ho approach to sentencing, which can effectively mislead the public—not necessarily deliberately, but because they are sometimes so enthusiastic about making a general point. That does not help the debate. It is therefore important to recognise that the media can be damaging in this as in many other areas when they come out with relatively simplistic explanations of the circumstances they describe.
That is not to say that we should not encourage transparency. We certainly should do so, because the more we know about things, the better, particularly given the number of cases and the number of people who end up with custodial sentences. Information is important in the debate about sentencing and encourages people who are interested in the subject to talk about the issues in more concrete terms, with facts at their disposal. Transparency is absolutely necessary.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
I have been listening to the debate in my office when I had the time. I have been on a RAF parliamentary scheme, but I wanted to come to the Chamber to make a simple point about transparency. In June 1986, I gave evidence at a trial in Belfast after the murder of 17 people. Five people were found guilty and were given life sentences. A few years later, I was informed that they had all been released. One of the things that I found upsetting was the fact that it was never explained why those people were released so early although they had killed so many. I think that the public would appreciate it if transparency operated in instances such as that. They would like to be told,“ These people have been released for the following reason, and that was the judgment of the court.” I appreciate that judges are very clever people and that they have sight of all the facts, but it would be nice if it could occasionally be explained why someone has been released early. I am sorry; that was a long intervention.
Neil Carmichael
I thank my hon. Friend. What he has said reaffirms my view that transparency is important. I do not doubt that the Secretary of State listened to that carefully as well.
The rule of law is essential to us as libertarians, as politicians, and as a country with common law at its core, and it is important to bear in mind that the separation of powers makes the rule of law work well if we respect that separation of powers. It is vital for us to recognise the independence of judges, to understand that—as the Secretary of State said—they are there to make judgments, and to understand that they are likely to be the best people to talk about a case because it is they who are judging it and know all about it. I think that politicians are heading into dangerous territory if they become too prescriptive about the way in which they think judges should be sentencing.
I also think it dangerous—this point was made by my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland)—to think in terms of a sort of toolkit that forces certain decisions to be made because of what we think is happening in a relatively abstract way. It is important to make the distinction between specific cases and setting rules, which is what we are talking about, and to respect the fact that the separation of powers is core to our way of proceeding.
Why do we give out sentences? Surely one of the most obvious purposes of sentences is to ensure that people stop misbehaving, and that is what we need to talk about in this debate. Several Members have referred to the number of individuals who are reoffending, and it is true—I have checked the facts myself—that 57% of short-term jail sentences result in reoffending within 12 months. That is completely unacceptable: it is not what we are doing the job for. We need to understand why there is so much reoffending. I think that many aspects of the problem are connected with the way in which prison operates. For instance, a number of my constituents have encouraged me to think about the standard of literacy in our prisons, and quite right too. Far too many people who end up in prison, especially the young, cannot read or write properly.
Mr Buckland
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for spelling out the appalling problems of reoffending in statistical terms. Does it surprise him to learn that 70% of young offenders in detention have some form of speech, language or communication disorder?
Neil Carmichael
No, it does not, because I was told that a few weeks ago. I think that the “toe by toe” approach in our prisons is an important way of lowering that figure. I urge the Ministry of Justice and the Secretary of State to think carefully about how we can improve literacy in our prisons so that those leaving prison can have a better chance of participating in society and employment.
Of course, the same applies to drugs: there are just too many people in prison taking drugs, too many people going to prison with drug habits, and too many leaving with a drug habit, which is completely unacceptable. It is important that we tackle that in a rigorous way.
A lot of people have talked about restorative justice. It is a great way of dealing with the victim relationship, and we should promote it. In my constituency of Stroud, a huge number of people want to support restorative justice, and there is a small campaign to promote it. I do not think that many of the campaigners know that it was introduced by Michael Howard, latterly of this House. It was persisted with by the previous Government and by this Government—and quite right, too.
Obviously, for a wide range of crimes, custodial sentences matter and are important; we have gone through all the figures in the past two or three hours. I do not think that many Members on either side of the House would dispute that crimes involving knives, and burglary, should attract custodial sentences. However, there are clear grounds for thinking about community sentences as well. I have taken the Secretary of State for Justice to my constituency and shown him an excellent scheme operated by REACH Gloucestershire, which is busy reconstructing a pathway along a very long canal. That is working, and people know it works. I have talked to people on the scheme; it is hard work, and they recognise that they do not want to do the same again. It is good for them to be given a job of work, and a form of punishment that makes them think carefully about how they operate in society.
Such community sentences are to be encouraged, but let me state clearly that there should be custodial sentences where appropriate. There should also be consistency; my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) emphasised its importance. However, that has to be matched up with the role of the judge, and his responsibility for making judgments. I come back to the central point that we cannot be too prescriptive. We should not go down the populist route of saying, “Hang ’em and flog ’em”; we should instead take responsible decisions to make sure that our judiciary, sentencing process and prisons operate in a way that is consistent with our values as a democratic nation, with our objectives of making sure that we deal with crime and stop reoffending, and with our fundamental belief in the rule of law.
Stephen Phillips (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
It is a real honour and a great pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael), who gave a powerful speech.
I hesitated to rise to speak on a subject on which I know so little—a fact of which I am particularly conscious in the light of the extraordinarily powerful remarks made by my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry); she talked about my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor-General, who will wind up for the Government, and his appointment as a criminal recorder even though he had no knowledge of criminal law. The right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) thought that my hon. and learned Friend did so well that he subsequently gave me the same honour.
When my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor opened the debate for the Government, he referred to the critical importance of the independence of the judiciary, and precisely what it has delivered, in proper sentencing, proper trials in the criminal courts, and public confidence in the criminal justice system.
I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter), who opened the debate for the Opposition. He, too, recognised the quality of this country’s judiciary and what it has meant for the United Kingdom and our citizens in the delivery of proper justice. However, such judicial independence inevitably means that from time to time we in this House, as we are entitled to do, have to consider the sentences handed down, because our constituents rightly raise concerns about them, just as they raise many other concerns about the criminal justice system and other matters.
When the House discusses sentencing, certain tensions manifest themselves as a result of the doctrine of the separation of powers that is rightly in place in this, as in all democratic countries. There are the public expectations—or perceptions, at least—of the sentences that courts hand down, fuelled from time to time, as a number of Members have said, by journalists picking up on sentences that appear not to reflect the severity of the crimes of which a jury has found a defendant guilty. Those public expectations need to be recognised and met, and it is the function of this House and the Government in part to do that in setting the guidelines and framework within which the sentencing operation must take place.
However, in tension with that is the role of the judges. My right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor rightly recognised that it is a judge in a criminal court who hears the entirety of the evidence against a defendant when presiding over a trial, and such a judge is therefore best placed to determine the appropriate sentence to pass on someone convicted of a crime by a jury of his peers. My right hon. and learned Friend did say, however, that in all such cases the judge will oversee the entire case, but that is not always so. In many instances, a conviction is obtained by the Crown and the case is adjourned for sentencing; indeed, that is the usual practice. As a result, the sentencing judge often has to be re-educated about the precise circumstances in which the offence took place, in order that an appropriate sentence can be imposed. I encourage my right hon. and learned Friend—as I would encourage any Minister—to consider whether it is appropriate in most cases, if not all, to reserve sentencing to the judge who actually heard all the evidence. That would engender better respect for, and greater public confidence in, sentencing.
Anna Soubry
It is very rare that the judge who conducted the trial in a given case does then not make sure that they pass sentence, for precisely the reasons that my hon. and learned Friend has identified. However, my hon. and learned Friend makes the powerful point that, if at all possible, it would be much better if they retained sentence, even where pleas have been taken by judges, which is usually because they have read the papers the night before. Actually, it just makes things a lot simpler and easier all round, which must be to the benefit of justice and is much more cost-efficient.
Stephen Phillips
My hon. Friend makes an important point about cost-effectiveness. If a different judge has to sentence, the papers have to be read and more work is done in court, thereby taking up court time, while the case is explained by the advocates for the Crown before the plea in mitigation is taken. Then, there is generally a further adjournment—certainly when I sentence, and no doubt when my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) sentences—when the judge retires to consider precisely what he is going to do. All of that could be avoided.
In my experience as a recorder—a role I continue to carry out for a few weeks a year—sentencing lists often include trials where there has been a conviction, and the case is not always reserved to the judge who heard the evidence. In my view, it certainly should be, and I hope that my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor and his Front-Bench colleagues will look at that issue.
The first tension for the House when it considers such matters, therefore, is that between public expectation or perception on the one hand and the necessity for judges who hear cases to deal with sentences and impose them appropriately on the other. There is another tension, however, between the discretion of the judiciary to impose the appropriate sentence and the expectations of the public that sentences will reflect the gravity of the crime. That, of course, is a tension that manifests itself most clearly in the discretion afforded to judges in passing the sentences they impose for which they are criticised, from time to time, both in this House and in the press.
Let me echo some of the comments of other Members about the wisdom of this House second-guessing the judiciary in sentencing exercises. If we are to stand behind the independence of the judiciary, as I know my right hon. and learned Friend and other Ministers do, and to insist that the judiciary are responsible for sentencing and not the court of public opinion—as we have seen from time to time—we must be robust and stand up and say here that which is right. That which is right is that there must always remain a certain element of discretion in the sentencing exercise, notwithstanding the frameworks that this House establishes, within which the exercise itself must take place, and the guidance laid down by the Sentencing Council.
The debate therefore takes place in the context of those tensions. Any Member who thought that the tensions were unreal and that the public did not have such perceptions or, indeed, criticise judges from time to time, will find when they return to their offices and read their e-mails an e-mail from our frequent correspondent—by which I mean that of all Members of the House—who goes by the name of UK Patriot. Many Members might delete his e-mails, but I read them. He has sent us all an e-mail today about the “Big Ben bomb gang” who are, he says, apparently out in six years. He says:
“The fact that this has happened is outrageous!”
He tells us that they appear to have been treated by the courts as though
“they were naughty boys owning up to scrumping apples.”
He goes on in the same vein.
There is a common public perception that the judiciary are not imposing proper sentences. It is therefore important, in the terms of the motion today, that we consider both consistency and transparency and that the Government push that agenda as they carry forward their work on sentencing and consider reform of the criminal justice system.
I openly acknowledge that the advent of the Sentencing Council, formerly the Sentencing Guidelines Council, has ensured greater consistency in sentencing. Like the hon. Member for Hammersmith, I am pleased that the Government have not decided that, because of the current financial crisis—we will not touch today on who is responsible for that, although the hon. Gentleman knows my views—this body should be abolished.
Mr Buckland
I think that my hon. and learned Friend is grappling with the same issue as regards the Sentencing Council as many of us have in recent months. Does he think that there is a case for the Court of Appeal doing the job of the council with an additional resource function to carry out the research that I referred to in my speech?
Stephen Phillips
This is a rare area in which I might disagree with my hon. Friend. Before the Sentencing Guidelines Council was established, as my hon. Friend will know and as the House heard in the Front-Bench speeches, the Court of Appeal used to issue guidance in the form of judgments in particular cases on how judges should proceed in sentencing. That was worth while, and, as my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State made clear in his speech, the Court of Appeal retains that role. We saw it, as an intervention revealed earlier in the debate, in the riots last year. The Court of Appeal, essentially, was able to establish that as a matter of English law the context in which otherwise minor offences had taken place required much stiffer sentences to be imposed than would otherwise have been required either by previous guidance from the Court of Appeal or by guidance from the Sentencing Guidelines Council.
I can agree with my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon to the extent that it does seem important that the Court of Appeal should retain that overarching ability to exercise its right to indicate to lower court judges what would be an appropriate sentence in particular circumstances. What the Court of Appeal never had and still does not have the opportunity to do is consult more widely, whereas the Sentencing Guidelines Council did have that opportunity, as does the Sentencing Council, which consults much more widely than the Court of Appeal ever could in a criminal case. In any case in which the Court of Appeal was handing down guidelines, it would receive submissions only from the parties to the case—and perhaps from the Attorney-General; I know not—but it would not be able to consult extensively with the public as the Sentencing Council can and does. If we are to encourage public confidence in the sentencing regime, it is very important that the public are consulted.
The only respect in which I might criticise the Sentencing Council—perhaps I am going slightly off the topic here—is in relation to its consultations on mandatory or discretionary guidelines on sentencing, which are not well publicised or well known. The representations it receives usually come from the Criminal Bar Association, other specialist associations and those who are particularly interested in the criminal justice system.
The Solicitor-General
Is there not another point to bear in mind? The Court of Appeal’s criminal division can look only at past cases and must have cases brought to its attention either singly or in groups in order to introduce thematic judgments on particular areas of criminal activity. The Sentencing Council, however, can proactively look at burglary, sexual assault and other areas of crime and give forward, rather than retrospective, guidance.
Stephen Phillips
My hon. and learned Friend makes an excellent point, as usual, which I had not thought of. No doubt that is why he is the Solicitor-General and I am two Benches behind him. He is absolutely right and I entirely agree with him.
I differ from my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon only inasmuch as although I think the Court of Appeal should indeed retain the overarching ability to indicate to lower court judges the framework within which sentencing must take place, I also consider the existence of the Sentencing Council to be important for the reasons I have indicated. The council’s guidelines ensure a large measure of consistency between sentences that are handed down for similar, if not identical, crimes across the entirety of England and Wales. For that reason, although I understand that there is a cost implication with the maintenance of that body and that it can be described, as it always is, as a quango—indeed, some would say it is a quango we should dispense with—it is a body that should continue to exist if we are to encourage confidence in the sentencing regime in England and Wales.
I hesitate, particularly given the time, to say very much about the hon. Member for Hammersmith’s spirited defence from the Front Bench of the sentencing regime and the way in which sentencing was treated by the previous Government, but it is right to point out that a large number of criminal justice Acts were passed under the previous Administration. If he were to go, as I recommend he should—perhaps he already has—and talk to those who had to use that legislation and were bound by it in their sentencing exercises, he would find a universal, or near-universal, level of criticism, particularly regarding the Criminal Justice Act 2003. Many of the measures that the previous Government introduced, such as custody plus, which was the example given by my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon, were never brought into being or had to be changed in subsequent Acts. The difficulty with the previous Government’s approach was that it sought to micro-manage the judiciary and to remove large elements of discretion so that the sentences that were passed did not necessarily reflect the offences of which the accused had been convicted or for which a guilty plea had been entered. Sentencing became, to a large extent, a tick-box exercise, which as the hon. Gentleman acknowledged, at least by implication, and as other Members acknowledged, is a most unsatisfactory way of proceeding. I listened to the spirited defence from the Opposition Front Bench, although I sought not to intervene, but I have to tell the hon. Gentleman that the approach the Government are taking in their reforms is the right one and I commend it to the House, as indeed I commend the motion.
Mr Slaughter
With leave of the House, I shall make a few comments about the debate. It was a good, intelligent debate—even enjoyable. That may say something about what lawyers find enjoyable, but it cannot often be said about five hours on a Thursday afternoon.
We began with contributions from not one, but two Select Committee Chairs. One may simply hear the bits one wants to hear in speeches and filter out the rest, but in the words of the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), who sadly has had to leave for another engagement, I heard echoes of what I thought I was saying in my opening speech about the importance of evidence-based and explicable sentencing decisions. As he said, sentencers should see the effects of their sentences—what does and does not work. He also mentioned the importance of early intervention and the work of the youth offending teams.
The right hon. Gentleman’s words were reflected in the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), who chairs the Home Affairs Committee. His was a reasoned voice for early intervention and for rehabilitation.
Then we moved on to the hon. Member for Shipley (Philip Davies). I worry that I may find myself agreeing with him too often. I am not sure that I should lock up all the people he would lock up; in that case, as the hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard) said, quite a few people on the Opposition Benches and even one or two on the Government side might find themselves locked up at some stage. However, when the hon. Member for Shipley talks about the release of violent offenders who are still a danger to the public, about taking away the discretionary powers of magistrates and judges to remand or about the now abandoned policy of 50% discounts for guilty pleas, I think the Opposition are with him.
Philip Davies
As getting the hon. Gentleman to agree with me is already a red-letter day for me, I shall push my luck. In the last Parliament, his Government introduced a system whereby people who were tagged could have that time knocked off their prison sentence, in the same way as remand in prison would be. Will he repent of that measure and agree that the time people are on a tag should not count towards time knocked off a prison sentence?
Mr Slaughter
For this afternoon, it would be above my pay grade to start making policy on the hoof. I shall come back to the hon. Gentleman on that point. I am always keen to keep him happy, as is the Lord Chancellor.
We heard a measured contribution from the hon. Member for Dartford (Gareth Johnson). He talked about local discretion and variation, but also about consistency. I am not sure whether in the end he came to a different view from that expressed by other Members—that the Sentencing Council regime is to balance clear guidelines for consistency with judicial discretion.
I am always glad to hear from the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) because she brings much experience to bear. I am always grateful when I hear her defending legal aid lawyers and legal aid, and I hope we may see her vote accordingly when the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill comes back from the Lords, hopefully in a substantially amended form. She gave a vote of confidence in the judiciary—all credit to her—and talked about the great advances in dealing with domestic violence offences. Perhaps she will also join the Opposition in condemning changes to domestic violence courts where they are being closed as a result of the court closure programme. I hope they will be replaced and the regime expanded. I note that she said that IPP sentences were a good idea in theory. If so, surely we should work towards making them more effective in practice, rather than throwing the baby out with the bath water.
I entirely agree with what the hon. Member for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) said about the judiciary, which as a practitioner he has much experience of, and about the Supreme Court—I am sorry that he is no longer in the Chamber. I agreed with him less when he was scoring points about the previous Government’s regime. It is convenient on these occasions for Government Members to forget the 43% fall in crime that occurred under the previous Government, and it is convenient for him to criticise us for the early release schemes but not address the IPP sentences or the 15% discounts when he says that he agrees fully with the Government.
I heard from the hon. Member for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) the voice of the victim, not the voice on behalf of the victim. His points were well made, particularly the fact that the victims of burglary and many other crimes are predominantly on low incomes and come from poorer parts of society. That is why the Opposition will do everything we can to see that punishment is appropriate and reoffending is prevented, and detection and sentencing are absolutely vital for that.
The hon. Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys, who is now in his place, made a clear case, and one that should be heard in this House, for the reduction in prison numbers. I praise him for that, even if I did not always agree with him. I agreed absolutely when he talked about the need for effective community punishments and the previous Government’s record on reducing youth custody by 30%. He raised the subject of young adults and 18 to 24-year-olds in prison, which I know the Prison Reform Trust is currently looking at. It is a neglected area. However it is to be dealt with, whether it is through NOMS—the National Offender Management Service—or whether it is through the Youth Justice Board, it is an area to which we urgently need to turn our attention. I agree with him about cuts in magistrate training, but it is also about the sentences and orders that magistrates can commit to. The magistrates in my constituency, both those on the lay benches and the district judges, know their powers very well, but sometimes they find that they are simply not available to them, as is the case with drug treatment orders, which is a source of great frustration to them.
All I can say about the hon. Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) is that I enjoyed his speech very much—I will leave it at that. He talked about the constitution and fettering discretion, but he should also look at the increase in mandatory sentencing and the restrictions on the rights of sentencers in bail matters, because we regard those as worrying trends.
I enjoyed the speech made by the hon. Member for Witham (Priti Patel), which was on behalf of victims and reminded us that the protection of the public is crucial to the criminal justice system. I also enjoyed the speech made by the hon. Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland), particularly when he talked about restorative justice, on which I think there is much cross-party consensus, with the caveat that it is not a soft option but must be properly resourced. His comments, and those of the hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips), offered the insider’s view on the Sentencing Council. It was interesting to note the points of difference, but they gave a fairly strong endorsement of many of the things that that body does, such as the research and work on consistency.
I thought that the hon. Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) gave a liberal—he almost used the word himself—speech, and there is no shame in that sometimes. [Interruption.] Well, we will see. He spoke as a non-lawyer with sympathy for lawyers and for courts, even saving a court himself, which is a rare thing to hear from those who are not lawyers, so I pay tribute to him for that.
We heard a warning at the end of the debate from the hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham that interference in the sentencing process, which we sometimes hear from the tabloid press, is not a good idea. Against that, the influence on sentencing policy and trends that the general public, and even the press, bring from time to time, is welcome.
Just as with criminal justice more generally, all sides of the House need to state clearly that we should have no reservations about putting people in custody when that is necessary for public protection. Equally, however, we should look at alternatives that will provide punishment but might also provide better options for rehabilitation. When looking at sentencing policy, we should combine those two essential aims.
This debate is about transparency and consistency. I believe that the Sentencing Council is delivering that, together with the common sense and expertise of citizens and juries, and of the judiciary, who have been praised on all sides of the House today. If we have that balance—we have gone a long way towards achieving it—it will be an area in which there can be consensus, and we can feel assured that at least in that area of the criminal justice system, we are achieving a system that the public want. The public can then feel confident that we will deliver solutions to crime that are just, fair and, when they need to be, punitive.
The Solicitor-General (Mr Edward Garnier)
I think that I am the 16th contributor to the debate, and it is not surprising—indeed, it is welcome—that although the debate is entitled “Transparency and consistency of sentencing”, and we are required by the motion to have
“considered the work of the Sentencing Council and the transparency and consistency of sentencing”,
contributions from right hon. and hon. Members have dealt with a number of wider issues within the criminal justice system. I congratulate the two Deputy Speakers who have chaired our debate on permitting such a liberal approach to the terms of the motion, which has allowed a number of informed and informative contributions.
I confess I thought that at some stages in the debate, the hon. Member for Hammersmith (Mr Slaughter) who, at least this afternoon, speaks for the Opposition on such matters, had been sentenced to a period of solitary confinement. For considerable periods he was the only Labour Member who thought it appropriate to remain in the Chamber. He, poor fellow, had no liberty and no discretion about whether to sentence himself to time in the Tea Room or somewhere else. It was a pleasure to see him sitting there silently for much of this afternoon. He has assisted us greatly with two contributions. Many people will no doubt find assistance from reading, with great care, what he had to say, in tomorrow’s Hansard. His praise for our judiciary and the criminal justice system was of considerable value, and the sentiment was shared across the House. I think he said that there was no room for complacency. If he did say that, he was right to do so.
From listening to the speeches of Government Back Benchers, I think it is fair to say that while there is universal acceptance of the high quality of our judiciary, from the highest court in the land, the Supreme Court, to the lay magistracy, there is no room for complacency and plenty of room for public comment. There is plenty of room for Members of Parliament—indeed, there is a duty on them, when it is appropriate—to make stinging comment, often in offensive terms. It is the right and duty of a Member of Parliament to speak up for his constituents or for a particular group of citizens who have strong views. It is right that my hon. Friends the Members for Gainsborough (Mr Leigh) and for Shipley (Philip Davies) come to this place not to agree with everything that goes on, but to disagree and explain why they disagree. The Government and the Opposition can make judgments about their contributions and reach a rational conclusion about whether to agree or disagree with them. I am grateful to both of them, and indeed to all Members who have taken part in the debate.
As I said, it is not surprising that our debate has been spread widely. We have considered the work of the Sentencing Council and whether it is a constitutional abomination that is interfering with the freedom of Englishmen. I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (Rory Stewart) that in some senses I hope it is interfering with the freedom of Englishmen who commit crimes and deserve to be sentenced to terms of imprisonment or, if their offences are not so hideous, to non-custodial disposals.
I know that my hon. Friend is a man who thinks a great deal about a great many things, and it is clear that he has thought a great deal about the difficult constitutional issues that are revealed in any discussion of the separate roles of Parliament, judges, juries and the Sentencing Council. None the less, I disagree with his conclusion if it genuinely is that the Sentencing Council is an affront to the liberty of Englishmen.
During the passage of the legislation that the last Government introduced setting up first the Sentencing Guidelines Council and then the Sentencing Council, I expressed the view that there was a danger that those bodies would interfere with the discretion of the judiciary. I said that both as a Member of Parliament and as someone who has sentenced people—until I came into government in 2010, I used to sit as a Crown court recorder, like my hon. Friend the Member for South Swindon (Mr Buckland) and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Stephen Phillips). I think if my hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border were to sit either as a spectator in the public gallery or alongside the judge—or even, dare I say it, if he were to imagine what it must be like to sit in the dock and hear a judge promulgate a sentence—I do not think he would be in any doubt whatever that our judiciary is not fettered in the way that I feared it might be, and the way he perhaps implied it was, by the guidance of the Sentencing Council.
Time and time again as Solicitor-General, I have appeared in the Court of Appeal criminal division referring what I consider to be unduly lenient sentences to the Court for review. I remind the House that I do that not as a member of the Government but as an independent Law Officer protecting the public interest. When I do so, I am constantly reassured that the Court of Appeal reminds the judiciary and the public who are in court that the sentencing guidelines are simply that—guidelines. When it is just to depart from them, the judiciary must do so. When it is just to show mercy, it is right and proper that the court should do that.
In cases such as the riots, to which my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State referred, it is right that sentencing judges in London, Birmingham, Liverpool or Manchester can go beyond the range of sentences recommended in the guidelines for affray, robbery, burglary of shops, arson or whatever it may be. The Court of Appeal and the Lord Chief Justice have said that given the context in which the crimes were committed, it was entirely proper that the sentencing judge should go beyond the sentence that might normally be expected for, let us say, the theft of three bottles of water, a cardigan or a pair of trainers from a shop.
It seems to me that we need to bear in mind the context in which the Sentencing Council does its work. Yes, the situation has changed from what happened 20, 30 or 40 years ago, when we relied only on the Court of Appeal to set out guidelines. However, now that we have the council I am, if not an enthusiastic convert, a convert who is prepared to say that its work, and previously that of the Sentencing Guidelines Council, has demonstrated its worth.
I should like to echo those who thanked Lord Justice Leveson—I am thinking particularly of the right hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Sir Alan Beith), the Chairman of the Justice Committee. Lord Leveson’s work on sentencing is in addition to his ongoing inquiry into the press and his work as an ordinary member of the Court of Appeal. He has to fit in sitting days in the Court of Appeal and deal with the work of the Sentencing Council in addition to his work on the Leveson inquiry, so I hope it will not be suggested that that judge, let alone any other judge at that level, shirks in his public responsibilities. He is working extremely hard and producing good work.
However, the fact that the council produces those guidelines does not mean that we must agree with them. Members of Parliament can disagree with them, as can members of the public who read about sentences in their local or national newspapers. We can form our own views, but as my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor said at the outset, Members of Parliament must be a little careful when we express such views, because the public expect us to have opinions based on fact, not simply on conjecture or rumour, or on a bad report of a case that we read in the newspaper. When Members of Parliament disagree with a sentence that a Crown Court judge has arrived at, we are under rather more of a duty than the young reporter or the ordinary member of the public to do our best to find out the facts.
One good way of finding out the facts is to ask the House of Commons Library to do the research for us. Another good way of increasing our knowledge of what the Crown Courts and other sentencing courts do is to go and sit in them, which I did in opposition. I urge my right hon. and hon. Friends and the few Labour Members in the Chamber to go to their local Crown court to see what happens. Friday is a very good day to do so because it is often the day when the sentencing lists are dealt with.
I take what my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham said about cases sometimes being dealt with by one judge at one instance and then being referred to another judge, but by and large, I like to think that happens only when they are dealing with cases in which there is a guilty plea followed by a sentence. The sentencing judge on a guilty plea is in just as good a position as the judge that received the plea. The important thing to bear in mind—this is a piece of advice that the Court of Appeal constantly gives, and my right hon. and learned Friend and I constantly give it to the Crown Prosecution Service, which we superintend—is that the factual basis on which the plea is made is established. Sentencers cannot sentence in a vacuum. It is essential that the facts of the case as admitted or as found by the jury are clear, so that the sentencer knows precisely on what basis he is sentencing.
Mr Buckland
Will the Solicitor-General reassure the House that the basis of pleas are reduced into writing—that they are court documents? Transparency is an important part of that process, as has been emphasised by all courts, including the Court of Appeal, for some years now.
The Solicitor-General
I am sure my hon. Friend is right about that—he will know that from his experience both as an advocate and as a sentencer. It is utterly frustrating to have to analyse sentencing remarks that are based if not on conjecture, then on a total lack of knowledge of the facts. Advocates—those who appear for the Crown and the defendant—have a duty to ensure that the court is given the facts.
Advocates also have a duty to ensure that the court is advised about the relevant sentencing law and powers. One of the problems, or unintended consequences, of the raft—I was going to say the flood—of legislation passed by the Labour Government was that those Acts had something to do with amending the criminal justice system. The previous Government were not so silly as to call every one of those 64 Acts of Parliament a criminal justice Act, but I can assure the hon. Member for Hammersmith that 64 pieces of legislation passed between 1997 and 2010 affected the way the criminal justice system worked. It is completely—I will not use an unparliamentary expression—confusing to have to sit there and try to work out which piece of legislation deals with which type of offence and whether that legislation is in force, not yet in force or out of force.
Let me take the example of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, which is almost as thick as this great tome—the wonderful “Vacher’s Parliamentary Companion”—in my hand. Before this Government came into office, I asked a parliamentary question of the previous Government, and it was quite clear that they had simply mismanaged the conduct of that piece of legislation. About a third of it was repealed before it even came into force. Another third was not in force by the time the previous Government left office. Individual bits of the remaining third were brought into effect, and we are now having to repeal them—I am talking, for example, about the IPP legislation. Other bits were also brought into force by the previous Government, but they then realised they needed to repeal them.
What we require from the House, therefore, is an understanding that legislation needs to be thought about. We need, of course, to consult—this is what the Sentencing Council does—the people who have to apply it and the people it will affect. We need to work out what we will get if we pass what I call early-day motion legislation—expensive appeals; judges telling my right hon. and learned Friend the Lord Chancellor that statutory construction is hell; and a huge lack of public confidence and satisfaction in the justice system.
Stephen Phillips
My hon. and learned Friend may remember—I wonder whether he agrees with this—that, in March 2006, Lord Justice Rose, speaking of the 2003 Act, which most of the judiciary consider to be the worst criminal justice Act of all time, said:
“Time and again during the last 14 months, this Court has striven to give sensible practical effect to provisions of the Criminal Justice Act 2003, a considerable number of which are, at best, obscure and, at worst, impenetrable.”
Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that it was not the high point of Labour’s justice policy?
The Solicitor-General
My hon. and learned Friend is too kind. I will also say this: Lord Justice Rose is a very great man.
Rehman Chishti
On that point, does my hon. and learned Friend agree that the 3,000 new offences brought in by the Labour Government had little effect in reducing crime? It was simply a case of legislation being made for the sake of making legislation, rather than making a real difference to people’s quality of life.
The Solicitor-General
I do agree. We made the same points during the passage of the 2003 Bill, as it then was, and subsequently.
The Solicitor-General
The hon. Gentleman has been very lucky—he has been allowed two goes. I have two more minutes, so he will just have to sit there and wait.
In the final minutes remaining to me, I want to thank the hon. Member for Hammersmith for his contributions, which were utterly valuable. My right hon. Friend the Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed contributed thoughtfully and with all the experience he has gained as the Chairman of the Select Committee. The right hon. Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz) has now gone. I am afraid that I had to cut him short because I thought his remarks were straying into an area we should not stray into until the case he wanted to talk about is completed. I mentioned the remarks of my hon. Friends the Members for Shipley and for Gainsborough. I am sorry I do not have time to deal in detail with the points they made, but I commend them on the forceful way in which they put them across. It is important that Members of Parliament do not just sit there like lemons, but get up and speak for their constituents.
Furthermore, if Members have particular experience —my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and I have both been victims of several burglaries, as has my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry)—we should use that personal experience. However, we should also use our professional experience, and a number of lawyers have brought to the House their experience as lawyers and as Members of Parliament. Their work as Members of Parliament is all the better for it. I am thinking of my hon. Friends the Members for Dartford (Gareth Johnson), for Gillingham and Rainham (Rehman Chishti) and for South Swindon, and my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham. I apologise for not commenting in detail on the contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for Stroud (Neil Carmichael). I also wanted to comment on the speech by my hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard)—
Carers and Online Banking
(12 years, 9 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Stuart Andrew (Pudsey) (Con)
These days, we seem to talk a lot about banks and banking, and for many in the House it is nice that there is a profession slightly less popular than ours. Since notice was given of this debate, I have had right hon. and hon. Members ask me what it was about, and when I explained it, many of them gave examples of similar problems raised with them by their constituents. I am glad, therefore, to have been able to secure this debate.
All Members on both sides of the House value, and know the value of, carers in this country. There are almost 6 million carers in the United Kingdom—a staggering one in 10 people—and according to Carers UK over the next 30 years their number will increase by 3.4 million. That is about a 60% increase. Some 1.25 million carers care for more than 50 hours a week. Indeed, carers are estimated to save the Government between £67 billion and £87 billion a year, and a 2011 report by the university of Leeds for Carers UK estimated that the economic value of the contribution made by carers in the UK is £119 billion per year. Bearing in mind our current deficit, those are staggering figures.
Before being elected, I worked in the hospice movement, and time and again I would see carers’ hard work and dedication. I remember one father saying that if he got up for his child eight times in a night, he would think that he had had a good night’s sleep. As MPs, we know the value of carers and the challenges that they face, whether from those who visit us in our surgeries or from the visits that we make to organisations representing them.
Being a carer is about long hours and hard work, and because they are often caring for loved ones, it is sometimes deeply emotional. They are an army of people whose dedication and compassion we should cherish. It is in that vein and spirit that I asked for this debate. In a decent country such as the UK we should do all that we can to help improve the lives of carers and make things as easy as possible for them. I am delighted, therefore, that the Government have committed an extra £400 million to supporting respite support for carers, and I looked forward to that money reaching the people who need it.
A few months ago, two constituents of mine, Mr and Mrs Dransfield, came to one of my surgeries. It was their story and the fact that their experience is not isolated that persuaded me to raise this issue today. Annie Dransfield is the full-time carer of her 32-year-old son, who suffers from cerebral palsy and mental health issues. Like carers up and down the country, she helps and supports her son to manage day-to-day activities that I, for one, am fortunate enough to be able to do unassisted. For her son it is different. Annie has to help around the house, sort papers out and deal with other household issues. She also has to take management of his finances. In February 2009, she applied to be her son’s deputy through the Court of Protection. This was duly approved, and as a consequence she was given access to her son’s bank account at the local Halifax branch. The arrangement helps her son to be financially independent, as the money that he is given is paid into his account and she merely ensures that it is managed correctly.
As we all lead increasingly busy lives, so our daily activities have had to change. As a consequence, many of the services offered by various institutions have maximised the use of new technology to help us. Online banking is a good example of that; indeed, it is something that I have come to rely on. So it was that Mrs Dransfield decided to use online banking for her son’s account. She has explained why it is so important:
“As a carer, the ability to access my son’s accounts online is invaluable. It means I don’t have to make the journey to his bank to give him his money each day and it also gives me peace of mind. If he loses his money, or does not realise how much he has spent and has nothing to get home with or buy food with, he can call me and in less than two minutes I can transfer some extra cash into his account so that he can get home safely or get something to eat”.
To give him some independence and responsibility, Mrs Dransfield’s son has a cash card account that she keeps topped up from his current account. That helps him with his daily routine, giving him the motivation to get up, go out and walk to get some cash.
That arrangement worked extremely well, until one day Mrs Dransfield tried to access her son’s account and found that she was blocked from doing so. The cash machine also retained his card when they tried to use it. Naturally, she contacted the bank, only to be told that it was illegal to have two online usernames, despite Mrs Dransfield’s having the authority to manage her son’s account. This started a long and time-consuming battle with her bank to have her access reinstated. The bank refused to back down. As a result, the case was referred to the Financial Ombudsman Service, which concluded that Annie was correct. In November, the FOS ordered the bank in its adjudication to reinstate her online access. The ombudsman found that the bank has obligations under the Equality Act 2010 to make “reasonable adjustments” and that the fair outcome would be for the bank to restore her online banking in full. In addition, the ombudsman said that the bank should pay £300 for “unnecessary distress” and that the only thing preventing access was the bank’s policy and systems. I am sure that we would all agree that that was a sensible verdict.
Staggeringly, the bank ignored the Financial Ombudsman Service’s verdict. Feeling desperate, Annie found that her only option was to turn to the media. Thankfully, The Mail on Sunday took up the story. It was only then that the bank took action and permitted her access to the account again. However, what is shocking is that, as I understand it, that resolution is not being rolled out to other carers: the actions that the bank took to authorise a second log-in will not be replicated for other customers who desperately need the service.
Of course, I am highlighting what has gone wrong—I am aware there are great examples of things that banks do—but this issue is clearly causing a problem to many carers around the country. I therefore wonder whether the Government might be able to raise the issue with the banks, to ensure that they act responsibly and provide an accessible service to all customers. They should remember that those customers are accessing their own money, and it is their legal right to do so. The practice of not allowing such access is bordering on discrimination, in not recognising the Equality Act 2010, in accordance with the FOS ruling. Carers spend hundreds of pounds going through the legal process of gaining power of attorney, or similar authority. Therefore, it seems illogical that the same legal document permitting access to a person’s bank account does not allow access to the service online.
The case that I have raised is not just an isolated incident. Even though Annie has resolved the issue with her bank, she has been told that it was a special allowance for her. She has therefore not stopped campaigning for the facility to be rolled out to other carers in similar situations. I have spent the afternoon with her and her husband. They are a great couple and have fire in their belly when it comes to their campaign—that is a warning shot to the banks, but perhaps also to my hon. Friend the Minister. Annie is also a member of the Carers UK Leeds branch and a governor of the mental health trust, so to say that she knows what she is talking about would be an understatement. As such, she has heard of hundreds of similar cases around the country. Changes to the current practice would have a huge impact on carers and the people they care for. It would be wonderful if a bank took the lead in creating a better system for carers and customers, but I welcome the opportunity to raise this issue in the House today, in the hope that the Government can assist. Carers should not have to spend their valuable spare time, when they are not looking after the people they care for, going through a complex bureaucratic complaints procedure.
In conclusion, banks should make better provision for carers and take into consideration the needs of their customers. They should therefore ensure that arrangements are in place to assist customers with mental health issues, and that staff with specialist knowledge of these requirements are available to assist when necessary. There seem to be a lot of good words coming from the banks, but carers up and down the country are still facing many serious problems. I believe, unless the Minister can tell me otherwise, that what we need is a stronger code of practice to assist carers. It would also be most helpful if he would be willing to meet a delegation to discuss this matter. After all, time is precious for all of us these days, but it is particularly so for carers.
The Exchequer Secretary to the Treasury (Mr David Gauke)
I should like to begin by thanking my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey (Stuart Andrew) for securing a debate on this issue and for setting out so clearly the circumstances that carers face and the problems that might exist with the banking system. I am also grateful to him for setting out the difficulties that Mr and Mrs Dransfield have faced and telling us of their determination to address them. I sympathise with the difficult circumstances that can be faced by many carers, who make an increasingly important and valuable contribution to our society by supporting those who may be less able, for various reasons, to live an independent life.
The Government are committed to improving access to financial services, and in particular to bank accounts. It has been amply demonstrated that having a bank account is an essential aspect of modern life for any individual. My hon. Friend set out those circumstances clearly in the context of his constituents. It is clear that many individuals might need the assistance of a carer to help them manage their money, including people with a disability as well as the elderly.
I hope that it will be helpful if I briefly set out the regulations that apply in this area. Banks’ and building societies’ treatment of their customers is governed by the Financial Services Authority in its banking conduct of business sourcebook. The sourcebook includes a general requirement for firms to provide a prompt, efficient and fair service to all their customers. That includes older people, the disabled, and those who lack capacity to manage their account on their own. In addition, like all service providers, banks and building societies are bound, under the Equalities Act 2010—which my hon. Friend mentioned—to make reasonable adjustments for disabled people in the way they deliver their services. This may include allowing for a carer or deputy to act for the disabled person.
It is of course right that banks and building societies have put in place measures to protect their customers and themselves from fraud. They clearly need to satisfy themselves of their customers’ identity, both for commercial reasons and to meet their obligations under the Money Laundering Regulations 2007. Before a bank or building society can let someone manage the account of another person, it must have proof of the name and address of the account holder and of the person who will have legal responsibility for managing the account. It must also see evidence of that person’s authority to control the account holder’s money. When a carer has been given formal authority to manage another person’s finances through a power of attorney or court order, or by acting as a deputy, this can be proven through official documentation. However, when a person does not lack capacity to take decisions about their affairs but requires assistance to access their account, the situation can be more difficult. I accept that the case described by my hon. Friend falls into the former category.
It is worth noting that most banks offer their customers a range of channels through which to access their bank accounts, including by telephone or in a branch. It might well be that these channels are better suited to allowing access to a bank account via a deputy carer or other representative. I also note that the British Bankers Association has provided on its website information on banking for those with less capacity.
I nevertheless agree with my hon. Friend that older people, the disabled and their carers should be able to benefit from the convenience of an online service. With online banking, it is even more important that security measures are in place to prevent unauthorised persons from accessing consumers’ accounts. There is no opportunity for a member of the bank staff to verify the identity of a carer or representative acting on behalf of a customer. Customers have a duty to protect the security details they are given in order to minimise the risk of financial crime. This may preclude sharing their log-in details with their carer.
My hon. Friend set out the unique difficulty faced by those who need the assistance of a carer to access their bank account. As with the application of identity checks more generally, there is a balance to be struck between maximising security for customers and facilitating access for customers who need the help of a carer. The services offered by banks and building societies are evolving all the time, and I would urge the industry to ensure that account is taken of this issue in the development of online services.
I would like to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Pudsey once again for bringing this issue to the attention of the House and the Government. I have taken note of his comments about the campaign on this issue. I am sure this is not the last we will hear of this matter either from my hon. Friend or, indeed, from others. I, for one—and the Government as a whole—would be interested to hear from individuals facing some of these difficulties and from banks and building societies about how, in the course of improving their services, they are approaching the issue of permitting access for those who require the assistance of a carer. Treasury officials will pick up in their discussions with current account providers the very points that my hon. Friend has made this evening.
I am sure that our hon. Friend the Financial Secretary, who leads on these matters but is unavailable today, would be delighted to meet my hon. Friend, Mr and Mrs Dransfield and others as the matter develops to look at proposals to address this concern. I assure my hon. Friend and the House that we will continue to monitor this issue in the context of improving access to banking more generally and in the context of the Government’s actions to support carers.
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising this important issue. He has set out clearly and very well the concerns of his constituents. I assure him that his words have been heard clearly by the Treasury, and I am sure that they will have been heard clearly by banks and building societies as well.
Question put and agreed to.
Westminster Hall
(12 years, 9 months ago)
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Backbench business
(12 years, 9 months ago)
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Network Rail
(12 years, 9 months ago)
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Mrs Anne Main (St Albans) (Con)
It is a delight to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Amess, for what I am sure will be a lively and engaging debate. I thank the Backbench Business Committee for providing the time and all colleagues who added their support to the proposal for the debate when it went before the Committee, in particular my hon. Friends the Members for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) and for Ipswich (Ben Gummer), the vice-chair of the all-party parliamentary rail group the hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins), the Chair of the Public Accounts Committee the right hon. Member for Barking (Margaret Hodge) and many others.
The debate is timely and much needed. Many colleagues have expressed concern that Network Rail has been failing on so many levels. It has failed to deliver a successful, well-run system that is value for money, transparent, accountable, open to scrutiny and fit for purpose. Network Rail has been subjected to serious criticisms in a recent Select Committee on Transport report and in the media. The White Paper expected in 2011 has been delayed, the McNulty report in 2011 raised major issues about Network Rail and I, too, have expressed concerns over failing performances on dozens of occasions in the House. As I said, the debate is topical and, indeed, overdue.
It is a simple premise that to deliver an efficient, mobile work force, we need a decent, well-run and affordable rail transport service. People of all ages expect a rail service fit for the 21st century. The travelling public are being asked to pay ever more for their rail fares, and we must ask serious questions about the services they are experiencing up and down the country. In my constituency of St Albans, passengers are heartily fed up, because commuters pay the highest fares in the country and routinely experience a dismal, erratic service with regular delays. In January 2010 the service was appalling, prompting me to call for an urgent question in the House. Without notice, overnight and at a stroke, the timetable was cut by 50% because the rail company could not deliver a full service schedule. Much of the problem was directly attributable to Network Rail which was leaving trains stranded south of the river and not investing in dealing with frozen rails and overruns. My constituents were angry, and it was a miserable time. Things have improved since, but they still receive a service that falls far short of what they deserve. Commuters tell me that, at a rail cost of 30p per mile, they are seriously considering going back to their cars, and who can blame them?
Sixty-four per cent. of delays to my service over the past year were directly attributable to Network Rail and its failings, with a massive impact on the passenger experience. According to recent data, the overall customer satisfaction on my First Capital Connect line, FCC, was the lowest in the country, including value for money, punctuality, sufficient room on trains, satisfaction with the stations and how the train operating companies, or TOCs, dealt with the delays. As I am sure many other right hon. and hon. Members present do, I monitor the rail service and its failings in my constituency, and I am in close contact with my train operator, FCC. I get updates, which do not always make good reading. Almost weekly, I get e-mails from FCC and from my constituents about signal failures and other problems associated with Network Rail once again causing severe delays to the line. The train operators are not without blame but it is impossible to improve a service substantially if Network Rail is at the root of so many delays and overruns—as I said, 64% in my case alone.
On a related issue, rail freight company HelioSlough is trying to cram a strategic rail freight terminal on to my green belt, in a highly contentious proposal. Numerous concerns were expressed about whether the east midlands line could cope and had the capacity. At the inquiry, my TOC asserted that the proposal would decimate passenger services; FCC illustrated its point with comprehensive data, showing that it was highly questionable whether the freight paths would truly be available, in particular after the implementation of the high-speed Thameslink project. FCC chose to attend the inquiry for several days to outline its engineering and logistical concerns, and its representatives were cross-examined by the inspector, who was extremely knowledgeable about rail. Network Rail, however, did not bother to send anyone to the inquiry or subject itself to any cross-examination of data, but just blithely asserted in a short letter—only one side of A4 paper, I think—that everything would be fine. The inspector said that he and indeed FCC must take those at Network Rail’s word for it—as “the experts”.
I wish to put on record that if the decision that currently rests with the Secretary of State is for a rail freight terminal to go ahead, the project will devastate my constituency with all the heavy good vehicles accessing the site through village roads. Network Rail did not even have the confidence to appear at the inquiry and to defend its views with the back-up of data, which I suspect would not have stood up to rigorous scrutiny or to the questioning of the inspector as experienced by my TOC. Network Rail presides over a shambolic railway, misses most of its targets for both passenger and freight and yet is still regarded as “the experts”. As the Member of Parliament for St Albans, I urge the Secretary of State, even at this late hour, to reject the unsubstantiated assertions of Network Rail on the project. They are not to be trusted. Network Rail has told me that, if enough paths for freight cannot be found, it will of course prioritise passenger services, so I should not worry. That would still leave St Albans with a massive road-to-road freight depot in my green belt, and my constituents deserve better from a body funded with taxpayers’ money.
We must ask whether there is a better way to run the railways. The debate has the simple title of “Network Rail”, and colleagues may focus on different aspects of Network Rail and its impact in their own constituencies. The areas of concern that the debate should cover, however, include costs, executive pay, the total lack of accountability, the role of the Office of Rail Regulation, and service failures and their impact on the TOCs. I hope we will then hear from the Minister about a way forward for our railways.
Network Rail accounts for 28% of the Department for Transport’s budget until 2013-14. Network Rail is a chimera, basking in the notion that it is a private company, but it is dependent on massive handouts from the British taxpayer. It was described by my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne (Kwasi Kwarteng) in the Select Committee as
“neither fish nor fowl...neither a private business...nor…a public business.”
Network Rail has a financial indemnity in place, so its debt is entirely supported by the Government. As of 2009-10, that debt was £23.8 billion, and it is set to rise to £31.5 billion by 2013-14. Network Rail’s debts, however, do not appear on the Government’s balance sheet. Somehow, it is classified as a fully private company, a private firm simply backed by Government, but many would question that classification. It has no shareholders and pays no dividends, but it pays itself very well. The Government seem relaxed about that debt, and the Secretary of State for Transport said in July that it was a matter of “complete indifference” to the Government whether Network Rail’s debt came on to or off the Government’s balance sheet. The taxpayer might beg to differ.
The structure is highly questionable; it was, sadly, devised under the previous Government, and it has allowed a culture of high pay and large bonuses to prevail for many years. Network Rail is reliant on the public purse but lavish with executive remuneration. One has to ask why the previous Government did not choose to tackle the issue since it created the monster. Network Rail was apparently set up with no mechanism in place to control the level of financial rewards or bonuses, which is topical, because there was a question today for the Leader of the House on that very matter. The situation is a disgrace and should be rectified.
We must now look to the future and ask for changes to be made. If we are to be seen as a Government wishing to tackle fat cats, their bonuses and lavish pay in what I believe to be the public sector, Network Rail must come under scrutiny. Until this year, the chief executive of Network Rail was the highest paid public sector employee, earning over 10 times more than the Prime Minister. In 2009-10, Iain Coucher, the chief executive at the time, had a salary of £613,000, a bonus of £641,000 and a pension payment of £178,000. I believe that he was extremely overpaid, despite delivery of poor performance; I cannot think of a bigger reward for failure.
The new chief executive of Network Rail, David Higgins, receives, according to an article in the Evening Standard—it has been hard to track down the exact figure—a salary of £560,000. However, only three days after publicly apologising for the failings of Network Rail that contributed to the deaths of two teenagers, Mr Higgins and other top executives appear to be going to their board to ask for a six-figure bonus. For Mr Higgins alone, that will be £336,000. For 2010-11, board members were all receiving salaries above £300,000 and up to £440,000, with what are deemed incentives ranging from £62,000 to £91,000. In light of such poor—indeed, abysmal—performances, one may ask what those incentives were for.
Network Rail presides over a shambolic, poorly delivering system. Top executives appear to be comfortable in the knowledge that they will collect annual bonuses regardless of poor performance. Does the Minister think it appropriate, in light of their performance, that Network Rail should pay large bonuses to top executives? If not, what mechanisms can we put in place to stop that happening?
Given the amount of taxpayer support, it would be reasonable to assume that we could know how the money is being spent, whether we are getting value for money, what the project costs are and whether they are reasonable. However, Network Rail is currently not subject to the National Audit Office, freedom of information requests or even market forces. It has been asked whether it will endure such scrutiny. The new Network Rail chief executive, David Higgins, said that he would welcome freedom of information requests. However, he also said:
“That is a decision for Ministers, and I think it is on hold until after the value for money and the White Paper…it is not a decision of Network Rail, but it is a decision that the Government and Ministers need to make. If they…do it, I welcome it. I have operated under FOI for years and I don’t have any problem with it at all.”
I am so pleased to hear that. I hope that the Government are considering taking the decision to subject Network Rail to freedom of information requests if it is in their ownership to do so. Will the Minister tell us at the end of the this debate whether he intends that Network Rail will be subject to freedom of information requests?
Sir Roger Gale (North Thanet) (Con)
On that issue, when Network Rail fails a train operating company, it has to pay compensation to the train operating company. The train operating company does not pass that compensation on to the passengers who are in turn being failed. When we ask Network Rail for the figure, we are told that we cannot have it because it is in confidence. My hon. Friend is absolutely right in her request.
Mrs Main
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. The passengers are compensated to an extent, but it is a very limited form of compensation. Believe me: First Capital Connect was paying out tons of it as of 2010. As my hon. Friend will hear me go on to say, it is our money paying the fines. That is ridiculous. I hope that freedom of information requests will be allowed. It seems that that is within the Minister’s gift.
Network Rail is not audited by the National Audit Office. It is audited by PricewaterhouseCoopers, but that is simply to check whether the accounts are in order. It is not audited on the basis of value for money. The National Audit Office remarked that the Department’s
“understanding of the relationship between cost and value was weakest in rail”.
It also says that a
“lack of transparency on Network Rail’s costs is consistent with our past reports on the Department and the Office of Rail Regulation.”
That has been highlighted for a significant period; there is a long-standing concern about a lack of transparency on costs. Can the Minister tell us today whether we can expect Network Rail to be subject to auditing by the National Audit Office? I ask that because I would like clarification. The National Audit Office is saying that it cannot gain an understanding of the position because Network Rail’s own figures are vague. Will the Minister clarify that we can strengthen the role of the National Audit Office?
The Public Accounts Committee has been especially damning of Network Rail’s accountability. In a 2011 report, it said:
“Network Rail has no accountability to shareholders, nor does the National Audit Office have full access, so Network Rail is not directly accountable to Parliament.”
It went on to say that it
“unfortunately won’t be able to give a clear opinion on the whole-of-Government accounts
until Network Rail’s status changes. That could well be the crux of the debate: how we change the status of Network Rail. Does the Minister accept the need to change the status of Network Rail? Does he share the concerns of the Committee that Network Rail is not accountable to anyone, particularly its paymasters in Parliament?
The Office of Rail Regulation is not holding Network Rail to account in any meaningful way. Anyone who watched the “Panorama” documentary last month will have seen Cathryn Ross, director of railway markets and economics for ORR, giving her responses. She confirmed that ORR has to be given the information by Network Rail in order to regulate it. However, as we have seen with the National Audit Office, getting any detailed information out of Network Rail is well nigh impossible. When pressed, she appeared totally unable to detail in any meaningful way any scrutiny that had been carried out on behalf of the regulator. Does the Minister find it unsatisfactory that ORR must rely on information supplied by Network Rail in order to act?
Only this week, Network Rail has been found guilty of serious failings that led to the tragic deaths of two teenagers—Olivia Bazlinton and Charlotte Thompson. There were not only failings in health and safety, but suggestions of a cover-up within Network Rail at the highest levels, aimed at concealing its mistakes. The families said in the media that they felt “lied to”, so can we really rely on Network Rail to give accurate information to anyone, even ORR?
The rail regulator is looking to expand its role. Given its mixed record on regulating Network Rail alone, its expansion is highly questionable. Michael Roberts, chief executive of the Association of Train Operating Companies, said in December:
“Train companies recognise they need to be held to account but plans to expand the ORR’s role to include more oversight of operators must be rigorously tested. The regulator needs to continue focusing on doing a better job of holding Network Rail to account, particularly on performance and cost-efficiency, before taking on new responsibilities.”
The Public Accounts Committee said in relation to ORR’s performance that
“we do not believe that the Regulator exerted sufficient pressure on Network Rail to improve its efficiency, and that there is an absence of effective sanctions for under-performance in the system...We doubt whether the Regulator is able to exert sufficient pressure on Network Rail’s performance”.
It has also said:
“The Office of Rail Regulation does not have a grip on Network Rail’s efficiency and appeared remarkably relaxed about the continuing gap in performance between Network Rail and international comparators.”
Those are hugely damning observations; they are damning in so many different areas. They question the ability of ORR to deliver on any meaningful level. Should the Government be allowing ORR to expand its role when it so obviously cannot do the role that it already has? Does the Minster share those concerns? Will he consider ways to improve the rigour of ORR’s role?
Network Rail can be financially punished by ORR through fines. However, Network Rail is financially supported by the Government. As my hon. Friend the Member for North Thanet (Sir Roger Gale) pointed out, fines go to the Government from Network Rail, which receives Government money. That is a ludicrous circle. Highly paid executives are paying for failures with public money.
ORR can also impose enforcement orders on Network Rail if it misses its targets, which it does on numerous occasions. That may sound impressive, but it amounts to Network Rail having simply to suggest plans to meet targets. We have spoken about the current targets. There is already an admission that Network Rail is highly unlikely to meet the new targets. That is disgraceful. The organisation is a toothless tiger. That has to change.
The “members” of Network Rail, the stakeholders, are also meant to hold Network Rail to account, but they, too, rely on Network Rail’s own disclosure of the figures to do that. We keep coming back to the fact that no one can hold Network Rail to account unless Network Rail wishes to hang itself with its own figures. It simply chooses not to do so, or puts them in such a way that it is impossible for anyone to hold it to account.
The question that must be asked, and the real point of the debate, is this. What incentive is there for Network Rail to improve? I argue that, under the current system, there is none. Does the Minister believe that he can put in place mechanisms to oblige Network Rail to deliver significant improvements? I hope that today he will be able to outline some of those for us.
We have the highest track-access charges in Europe. Those costs are inevitably passed on to the travelling public. Sir Roy McNulty said in his report that running the rail network here was 30% more expensive than in comparable European countries. I admit that I do not know how that figure was arrived at, but I have not noticed anyone saying that it is inaccurate or giving a different figure. Does the Minister agree with the 30% figure, and what can his Department do to make Network Rail bring down its track access costs and other costs? On reading the details surrounding that figure, it could as easily be higher as well as lower.
The scale of the problem that faces Network Rail, which it recognises but chooses not to deal with, is illustrated by the fact that it employs 600 delay attribution staff. If anyone has talked to their own train operating company, they know how important it is to be able to attribute blame for a fault because it makes a difference as to who pays the bill. If the delay in operations is Network Rail’s fault, the fines are paid by Network Rail. If it is the fault of the train operating company, it goes on the performance data of the TOC and it has to pay the fine. As Members can imagine, the squabble can be pretty unedifying. Network Rail spends its entire time, and our taxpayers’ money, divvying up the blame and fee penalties among the train operating companies, and then using taxpayers’ money to pay the fines for any delays.
You could not make this up, Mr Amess. I am amazed that we have all decided to accept this appalling situation for such a long period of time. Network Rail has presided over a litany of high-profile failures. Some have resulted in criminal prosecutions. I do not wish to go into too much detail here, because the hon. Members representing those areas may be present in the Chamber. However, the Virgin train derailment near the Cumbrian village of Grayrigg was one such incident. Such failures are causing deaths and significant injuries, and Network Rail’s declining performance has put it in breach of its licence. Despite being “the experts”—as I said earlier, Network Rail’s expert opinion is heavily relied on—Network Rail has presided over a system in which rail freight delays are 32% worse than the end-of-target year. Long distance punctuality stands at 87%, which is well below the target of the Office of Rail Regulation. Delays have risen, which proves that the network has become less resilient to disruptions. That is important. Some workers have said to me, “I don’t want to lose my job, but I have serious concerns about the work that is being done by Network Rail on maintenance and oversight of engineers.” That is a serious issue. People within the industry feel that they must keep their mouths shut about the things that they can see not being done correctly. Network Rail does not give the travelling public any confidence that its rail service is as safe as it should be.
George Freeman (Mid Norfolk) (Con)
My hon. Friend is making a very powerful case, which many of us sympathise with; my constituents certainly will, too. She says that we need to consider new models. Does she agree that we should be really bold and radical in tackling this problem, which is a legacy of some of the mistakes of privatisation compounded massively by a botched renationalisation under the previous Government? In my own region of East Anglia, rail has a crucial role to play in driving a rebalanced economy, innovation and investment. Does she think it might be sensible for us to consider—possibly in areas such as East Anglia—putting track and train operating company back together, thereby creating a regional rail company that has full integration, a long-term franchise and the ability to invest and plan for future services?
Mrs Main
That is an extremely valuable contribution. This debate is not simply about reading out a list of failures and then going away and allowing the situation to continue. If we were to do that, we would be failing the public again and again. Indeed, some of those tragedies that have occurred may happen again somewhere else. We must be radical. I do not wish to take up too much time at the beginning of this debate saying what we should be doing. My hon. Friend is absolutely right though. There are innovative methods. One thought is to have 10 regional areas operating on a system of alliancing. That is a phrase that I had not heard before, but it means having a deeper and more meaningful relationship with the train operating companies. Such a system relies on companies having longer franchises. Many ideas should be considered. None the less, significant issues need to be tackled. We are left with a structure that is patently not fit for purpose. I would like us to say that we will not accept a tinkering around the edges with this. I do not want us to say, “We will just remove one chief executive and stick another one in.” If we do that, we are basically left with all the same people, in the same place, presiding over yet another set of failures. Radicalisation is the only way forward. I am sure that we will hear different suggestions from hon. Members today. We need to sweep out the Augean stables of Network Rail. There are no two ways about it; we are talking about not tinkering but a fundamental change.
I wish to give other colleagues a chance to speak. As I have said, the list is long and damning. Network Rail has been fined for so many project overruns. On “Panorama”, we heard about the major investment in Reading. It is impossible to find out what the project was supposed to cost in the first place to know how much it has overrun.
Chiltern Railways wanted to have a station built. Network Rail estimated the cost at £13.2 million. Chiltern managed to build it itself for £5.2 million. One has to ask how Network Rail carries out its costings. One has to ask whether there is money washing about in the organisation in what can only be described as a negligent way. There are people who should stand before the Government to justify how they are spending our money, because it seems to be highly questionable.
I want to give other colleagues a chance to speak. As I have said, the list is long and damning, and I am sure that Members will add to it. I hope that we will explore all of the issues, including the way forward, because we need a way forward. I look forward to hearing answers to some of the questions that I have posed to the Minister.
Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op)
I congratulate the hon. Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) on securing this debate. She raises some extremely important issues. I know that the points that she has made will be repeated by other hon. Members who have similar experiences.
This debate takes place at an interesting time. Although we are focused on Network Rail, we are awaiting the Government’s proposals on the future of the whole rail system. Network Rail is an intrinsic part of that system; it has to enable the train operating companies to work and ensure that there is safety on the line and that trains are punctual. None the less, it cannot be considered entirely in isolation from the whole rail system. We must therefore look at how the train operating companies operate and at the role of the Department for Transport.
We must not forget that, over the past decade, rail has been a success story. More and more people use rail, which brings its own problems of overcrowding and how to address increased capacity. We want to encourage more freight on to rail. Again, that leads to discussions about how more capacity can be provided and whether that can be done without crowding out much-needed passenger services as well.
There can be no dispute over the fact that the rail system costs a lot more than it should. The McNulty report is the latest one to draw attention to that. It says that our rail system as a whole costs around 30% more than comparable European rail systems. Much—not all—of that can be attributed to Network Rail.
Mrs Main
The hon. Lady is absolutely right to expand that point. Not only is access more expensive, but the licences are more expensive for the train operating companies and they pass on the cost to the travelling public. Network Rail’s high costs mean that passengers are paying too much.
Mrs Ellman
I thank the hon. Lady for her comments. She is correct. However the service is organised, it is a public service and it has to be so run. Whatever money is in the system ends up costing the taxpayer or the fare payer. Over recent years, there has been a shift in who pays for using the train. I am talking about the shift from the taxpayer to the passenger. Whatever money is in that system eventually comes out in the cost of the ticket, which is causing so much concern at the moment.
Network Rail says that it is addressing the McNulty recommendations, looking at being more competitive and reorganising itself. It is far too soon to say whether that will be sufficient, or indeed whether it will address the most important issues that have been raised. Some action has been taken in relation to the train operating companies. There will be longer franchises. For example, the franchise for the west coast main line will be for a much longer period. That could be part of the solution, but we need to see the Government’s proposals and vision for the whole rail system before it can be considered.
The hon. Lady referred to this week’s court case when Network Rail admitted its liability for two tragic deaths in 2005, when Olivia Bazlinton, aged 14, and Charlotte Thompson, aged 13, were killed on a level crossing. It emerged only last year that Network Rail had had a risk report in 2002 recommending the installation of new gates that would lock automatically when a train approached. That in itself is bad enough, but it seems that the documents had been suppressed and not made available to the police previously. Network Rail has now admitted liability. It is being charged, and it has admitted guilt. Those tragic deaths should not have happened. They were terrible, as was the cover-up afterwards. I hope that in its statement now Network Rail is more open and that it will change to a new approach.
The Office of Rail Regulation strongly criticised Network Rail and is considering whether lack of punctuality and more late trains have been a breach of its licence. It has already raised safety issues, particularly the lack of adequate reporting of safety incidents on lines. Network Rail points to cable theft as a reason for delays, and that is a factor, but it is not the only one. Only last week, the Transport Committee published its report on cable theft on the railways, and said that Network Rail could do more to make such thefts more difficult, so it has some responsibility there.
The hon. Lady made many valid points about Network Rail’s accountability. However, I recall how Network Rail came to be set up. I remember clearly that it was preceded by the conventional private sector company, Railtrack, which went into administration. It collapsed after absorbing endless amounts of taxpayer’s money and paying out bonuses to its private shareholders while letting the nation down. Structure and ownership are relevant, and we must remember that the wholly private sector company did not deliver. We must consider how the present company operates and how it could operate better.
There has been much criticism about lack of accountability in Network Rail. It has a board of around 100 members, which is not a good way to secure accountability. Efforts have been made to change how it is organised to introduce more accountability. For example, the Co-operative party’s people’s rail campaign is trying to involve more members of the public and users of the service with a much smaller board to which Network Rail would have to answer. That is one option. Certainly, the way in which it operates now is not satisfactory and must be re-examined.
The next spending period is 2014 to 2019, and we will know in July what rail projects have been proposed or agreed for investment. There are long lists of necessary investment projects from different parts of the country, including the northern hub, which is badly needed, the electrification programme and many others. If we do not secure value for money from investment, we will not receive the maximum investment in rail. That is extremely important.
The Transport Committee invited the new chief executive of Network Rail, David Higgins, to the Committee when he was first appointed, and we asked him questions about value for money, accountability, safety and other matters. We intend to repeat that, and to recall him in the near future, when we will raise issues of accountability, value for money and how Network Rail invests in the public interest. We will certainly take note of the points made today by the hon. Lady and other hon. Members.
Mrs Main
I am extremely pleased that the Select Committee will call David Higgins back. During his “Panorama” interview last month, he said that he would release more figures and data by the summer to show Network Rail’s transparency. Is she aware of that, and will she be recalling him before or after that?
Mrs Ellman
A date has not yet been fixed, but all the issues will be taken into consideration. It is important that hon. Members recognise that, whatever an organisation’s structure, Select Committees perform an important role in trying to bring accountability to people who are in charge of public services. We have stated that we think that Network Rail should be subject to freedom of information requests. We will pursue matters of public concern and matters that hon. Members raise today and on other occasions, and we will do so to the best of our ability.
Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)
I join other hon. Members in congratulating my hon. Friends the Members for St Albans (Mrs Main), for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) and for Ipswich (Ben Gummer) on securing this important debate. I apologise, Mr Amess, that I must leave the Chamber slightly early due to some child care issues that have arisen today.
Thus far, we have heard some valid criticisms of Network Rail’s performance on punctuality, delivery of long-distance and freight services through its operators, value for money and inefficiency, to name but a few issues. First Great Western, which serves my constituency, reports that 60.4% of delays are due to factors within Network Rail’s control. That figure includes 18 incidents of overrunning engineering work causing 1,053 minutes of delay, and 347 incidents of infrastructure failure causing 21,270 minutes of delay. The result is passenger inconvenience and frustration. Specifically in the Thames valley, which covers my constituency, Network Rail has caused a total of 2,976 hours of delay. That is not very good, to say the least, and considerably adrift of the targets that it was set.
The Office of Rail Regulation has said that Network Rail must improve on that, and two enforcement orders have been issued, which is highly embarrassing for such a company. I have spoken to First Great Western, and it is keen to emphasise that this is not a blame game, but a plea to work better with Network Rail to address problems that cause so much grief for so many of its passengers and our constituents. This is a long-standing plea and I had hoped that matters were improving, but it seems that I was far too optimistic about the moves that have been made to try to deal with some of the problems. Network Rail can and must improve on the terrible figures, but no organisation is perfect and we must see what can be done, and what improvements can be made.
As an organisation responsible for operating 20,000 miles of track and infrastructure, 40,000 bridges and tunnels, 18 major stations, 2,500 leased stations and 8,200 commercial properties, Network Rail has a huge responsibility. At this time of economic challenge, we need a railway infrastructure fit for purpose to keep Britain moving.
The McNulty report recommends a number of improvements, some of which have been covered in the debate and some of which will perhaps be covered later. I would like to draw from my experience of working with Network Rail on a range of issues on behalf of my constituents. That experience should not detract at all from anything in the powerful speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans, but all I can say at the outset is that my experience has been very positive.
Reading is a major transport hub in the south-east and Reading station is among the busiest stations on the country’s rail network. Every day, 700 trains pass through the station, which handles 14 million passengers each year. An £851 million redevelopment of the station is well under way, and its express aim is to provide more trains, to reduce delays and to provide a much better station overall for passengers.
In my first term in Parliament after 2005, I brought key stakeholders together to breathe life into a project that was drifting and even failing. It could not get off the ground, but I am pleased to say that Network Rail got onboard—if you will pardon the pun—and was very responsive to my requests, always positive and keen to get the job done. I am also pleased to report that to date the work has been delivered on time and on budget—although I take my hon. Friend’s point about “Panorama”. For such a large and complex project, that is welcome indeed, but it is also impressive considering that it must fit around a busy operating schedule. The Reading station redevelopment thus far stands as an example of Network Rail’s ability to deliver on ambitious plans for major rail improvements. Network Rail has shown me and my constituents that it employs good project management in this case, and has some very good people working for it.
In Reading, Network Rail is changing the track layout and building new platforms and entrances to the station to tackle congestion and to improve passenger journeys. Given the price my constituents pay for tickets—I am led to believe that it is the most expensive railway line in Europe—any work to improve passenger experience must be welcomed. New tracks and platforms mean that incoming trains will no longer need to queue outside the station, as they do now, which I am sure anybody who lives in the west country and further afield will welcome. Sitting delayed outside Reading station almost every day of the year is very frustrating, and a particular problem for passengers to the west of Reading. Network Rail engineers are building a new viaduct to the west of Reading, which is designed to take fast main lines over freight and relief lines. That work will enable the railway to cope as demand for train services increases in the years to come—a point well covered in the debate and a necessity that we cannot afford not to address.
Since 2008, I have been impressed by the emphasis that Network Rail has put on dealing with local stakeholders, ranging from myself as a local MP to Reading council and community groups. Its engagement strategies have helped stakeholders to shape the designs, not only for the station, but for the layout of the platforms and so on, and its work to keep local people updated has minimised disruption ahead of works. Thanks to its careful preplanning, a 10-day closure during the 2010 Christmas period meant that it was able to reduce—yes, reduce; I can see that there is surprise at that—the overall timetable for the project by a year. It was originally planned to be a six-year project and it will come in a year earlier than that, which is a big achievement.
The rail performance watchdog, Passenger Focus, has given positive feedback on the works to date. To Network Rail’s credit, in this instance an acceptable balance was struck between short-term disruption and a long-term reduction in the overall disruption caused by the project. Of course, there is huge room for improvement, but those efforts have been thorough and deserve a fair mention—credit where credit is due, after all. More recently, Christmas 2011 saw the completion of another major new bridge and new platforms to serve electrified southern lines. There too, Passenger Focus has given positive feedback on the works.
I am also pleased to say that all that work was completed to Network Rail’s published timetables, and I hope that that continues through to the project’s completion in 2015. If the project management at Reading station to date is anything to go by, I am confident that that can and will happen. My constituents in Reading East are ambitious for public transport services, and so am I. I am therefore pleased that, in my experience of the Reading station redevelopment, Network Rail has helped to deliver on that ambition.
I would like briefly to cite another example of my positive experience of working with Network Rail. Last month, I chaired another meeting of an ambitious group I have put together with Network Rail, BAA, London Heathrow airport, the Department for Transport and First Great Western. Our aim is to provide extended western rail access to Heathrow airport for Reading and beyond. In these tough economic times, such a link will improve business conditions in Reading and further afield, providing much needed connectivity with Europe’s busiest airport. That is important because Reading is home to many large employers and first-rate firms, such as Microsoft and Oracle, and the lack of a direct link leaves little alternative to lengthy and costly car and taxi journeys from Reading to Heathrow, which are estimated to cost local businesses £10 million a year in transport.
Reading, like other business centres, faces stiff competition regionally, nationally and internationally. We need to remain competitive, and in doing so, we must address the lack of a speedy link to Heathrow. A direct rail link is essential to our local economy over the next 20 years, and I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport and her predecessor, now Secretary of State for Defence, for their critical support in getting such efforts off the ground. Network Rail deserves our thanks too, because following my bringing together key stakeholders and establishing the group to drive the project forward, Network Rail has proved to be an enthusiastic team player and, again, has shown itself to be a good project manager. I commend it for that.
I hope that Network Rail’s chief executive, Sir David Higgins, and his directors will take some positives from the debate, despite the many criticisms that they must hear and take onboard. I, for one, can give the Network Rail projects and people with whom I have dealt a thumbs up, and I hope that proposed improvement changes will mean that right hon. and hon. Members can give Network Rail a thumbs up in future.
Kelvin Hopkins (Luton North) (Lab)
I congratulate the hon. Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) on a first-class speech. I agreed with almost every word she said, but I am afraid that I do not share the rosy view of Network Rail that the hon. Member for Reading East (Mr Wilson) expressed.
Kelvin Hopkins
It is not my experience. I have had many contacts with those who have worked in the rail industry over the past 15 years and before, and I have heard a stream of criticism from people fearful of being exposed because they would be victimised if their names leaked out. To illustrate that point, I deliberately forget their names, but I have heard a lot of very disturbing details.
I have a passionate interest in railways and have supported them since I serviced the TUC transport committee in the 1970s. I have been a rail commuter on Thameslink for 43 years, and have travelled through St Albans in that time. I have always believed that railways are the transport of the future, which was not the view of the Department for Transport until recently—quite unexpectedly as far as it is concerned, there has been an enormous surge in rail passengers in recent years. Despite higher fares and travel problems, people have chosen to use the railways, which confirms my view that they are the transport mode of the future. There has been much investment over the past 15 years, which has been expensive, but we need a lot more of it.
Privatisation has been a hugely expensive mistake. Indeed, a Department for Transport official was heard to say privately at the time that privatisation was intended to facilitate the decline of the railways. That was the Department’s view then. It was thought that the railways were a diminishing form of transport and that eventually we would all move to our cars. The great mistake, of course, was to divide the railways between Network Rail and the train operators—to separate track and train. No other country in Europe has chosen to privatise their railways. They have seen the mistake that we made, and the problems that that caused. There have been accidents and there are serious safety problems, even now, and of course there has been a massive increase in costs.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Riverside (Mrs Ellman), the Select Committee Chair, said, Railtrack was an appalling organisation. In the foyer of its headquarters it had an electronic indicator showing its share price. That is what it was concerned about—not serving the public, or safety. Eventually, of course, the previous Government were forced to abolish it and to come up with another solution. I understand that a private conversation took place in Downing street for several hours, between Stephen Byers, Tony Blair and the then Chancellor of the Exchequer. Tony Blair got bored after a certain time and walked out, saying “Well do what you have to do, but no nationalisation.” So they came up with the strange beast called Network Rail, which is neither nationalised nor privatised, and has no effective accountability at all. We have had not just privatisation but fragmentation—but that fragmentation was based on some economic theory, which was once explained to me by an economist. I said, “Costs were supposed to go down, but they went up massively.” “Yes,” he said, “our theory didn’t work.” Well, why do they not just reverse what they did and reintegrate and renationalise the railways?
There has been a massive increase in costs, in both public subsidy and fares, and, as Sir Roy McNulty concluded, at one point, our railways were up to 40% more expensive than continental railways. I have said in the Chamber, and to Sir Roy, whom I have met twice with my hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell), that the big difference between continental railways and ours is that the continental ones are publicly owned and integrated, while ours are privately owned and fragmented. I do not think that he was listening to me, because he clearly had his card marked, “Whatever you do, no public ownership: find another solution.” One of the things that he has done, which I completely disagree with—the railway unions have made the point—is to consider staffing cuts. The staff on the front line have apparently been judged very efficient. They are not the problem, or the ones who cause the costs, but they are the ones who will have to pay the price, because in place of a challenge to what Network Rail does, there will be cuts to staff in stations at night.
Network Rail is a dysfunctional organisation. It is expensive and bloated, and is a law unto itself. I have met David Higgins a couple of times, and I have a high regard for him. He is a decent person, but he has taken over an organisation that is out of control. He has had great difficulty in penetrating that appalling organisation. Network Rail is a rogue organisation, and impenetrable. I have described it as an entrenched management mafia. I understand that within the organisation David Higgins suffers a degree of hostility, because every time he tries to change anything he is resisted. That is not just within the management structures; even at board level he suffers from those problems. It is down to the Government to back him up when he wants to do things, and to break the stranglehold of the corrupt management that has been there so long.
The vice-like grip of the old guard stems back to Railtrack days, and even though it was abolished some of the same people—and the same practices and culture—carried on. As I have said, I have had dozens of conversations over 15 years with staff and former staff, and they are all fearful of being whistleblowers, and I can understand why.
Kelvin Hopkins
Indeed, and without any proper accountability. As the hon. Lady has said, there is no means to control it.
The bullying culture in the organisation was appalling. Anyone who stood out against, challenged or criticised it, or said that things could not be done, was sorted out by a head of human resources, who has, I think, recently been paid off with a substantial sum, rather than sacked. For years he was protected by senior management. On several occasions he sacked people and, when threatened with a tribunal, settled out of court, eventually. Just to pay off staff whom he had sacked cost many millions of pounds. Eventually he was paid off to go elsewhere. He was symbolic of a culture that was about control and bullying, and making sure that individuals looked after themselves within the organisation.
George Freeman
I did not want to interrupt the flow of the hon. Gentleman’s interesting description, but he appears to be giving the impression that we should simply return to the days of old—of British Rail and an integrated national system. Many of us in the Chamber will remember British Rail, which was hardly a paragon of efficiency, investment or good service. Is that indeed what he suggests?
Kelvin Hopkins
Indeed, I shall come to that shortly. In fact, British Rail was starved of money and did a remarkably good job in the circumstances. Those are not my words. That is how it was put by Tom Winsor, the former rail regulator, who said that British Rail worked miracles on a pittance, and that when it was handed over to the privateers it was “in good order”. A Catalyst report some years later made comparisons between British Rail and continental railways and found that British Rail’s productivity was the highest of all the European railways. That is not true of our railways now, but it was then. However, British Rail was starved of money because there were several Governments, and a Transport Department, that did not believe in railways. They thought that they were dying and did just enough to keep British Rail alive.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
Apart from the Catalyst study, most recently Christian Wolmar demonstrated that rail now has three times the subsidy that British Rail had, so there has been a tripling of subsidy and an increase in inefficiency, with higher fares.
Kelvin Hopkins
My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and of course that includes paying for the bloated, self-interested mass of people at the heart of Network Rail.
I like to think that David Higgins is possibly the right man for the job in the appalling organisation we have, but he has a difficult job at the moment. During the time in question there have been the accidents at Grayrigg, Potters Bar and Hatfield. There has been pressure for prosecutions, but Network Rail has constantly said “Not our fault.” It has tried to escape and avoid blame. As to the recent accidents on level crossings, it is interesting that just in the past couple of weeks David Higgins personally apologised to the parents of the two girls who were killed. That is a different attitude from that of previous Network Rail management.
Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con)
I do not quite have the same memories as the hon. Gentleman of British Rail, but I shall let that go and take up a more positive point, about the role of the regulator. We have got that totally wrong. It is ineffective. Is not that where we need action to help David Higgins?
Kelvin Hopkins
That is another point I was going to make: regulation. At the time when Tom Winsor left the Office of the Rail Regulator, there was talk in Government circles, which leaked out, that the Government—the Treasury and, indeed, the Department for Transport—wanted light-touch regulation. They did not want the ORR to regulate too hard, because that might damage profits. It might make privatisation less popular. If a regulator of any kind is told “Light-touch regulation”, they will either go along with it and take the money, or say “I am not going to be blamed for things that go wrong,” and stand down and do something else. I suspect that that might have been the case with Tom Winsor, but there we are.
The Government must take hold of the matter. The speech today by the hon. Member for St Albans has started, I hope, to move the tectonic plates. Governments and Network Rail management have refused for years to face the problems, and the costs have been massive. If the Government want to save money, one way to do it would be by sorting out Network Rail. I suggest that they should first make it a proper public corporation again: one that is transparent and accountable—ultimately to Parliament through the Secretary of State—and subject to freedom of information inspection. There are inherent problems of cost, but those are caused by the contracting culture. Track maintenance was taken in-house when it became incredibly costly. Time and again I raised with the Secretary of State, under the previous Government, the question why track maintenance costs are four or five times higher than they were in British Rail’s day. The simple answer was that it was about contracting. There was contracting, subcontracting and sub-subcontracting. There were costs at every level whenever the work was contracted out, and of course there were project managers and lawyers negotiating contracts at every level. People were filling their pockets with public money.
British Rail directly employed its own staff at every level, from the engineers who designed and controlled the work to the track layers at the grassroots level. They were all employed in particular areas, so that they had possession and ownership of their own area of track. If things went wrong, it was the engineer’s fault. He was permanently employed and he was accountable. He knew that his life was in the railway industry being employed by British Rail and he had to get it right. In the case of subcontracted staff, perhaps from overseas—they might have signed on as subcontracted staff or contract staff from elsewhere—they disappear after the work is done. Nobody knows who has done the work, and of course there is no sense of accountability and no sense of loyalty. They are just doing a job for the money. That is quite different from the type of attitude that British Rail engineers had. They believed in railways and they were passionate about their work.
There are still many of those BR engineers about today, but they are being abused and rubbished by this appalling organisation called Network Rail, where they are employed as consultants. Network Rail has to depend on them, because they are the only people who know how to do the job, but Network Rail does not inspire loyalty and commitment to the industry. People love railways—I love railways—and when they work inside the industry, they devote their lives to it. It is like loving a work of art. They have those attitudes, which is exactly what we want. We want people back in the industry who are permanently employed, who are responsible for sections of track—their track, and if it goes wrong, it is their fault and they feel totally responsible.
We have an expensive operation. Some years ago, the Department of Transport held an internal seminar on project management and its costs. It invited Don Heath, the manager who had been the guiding light and chief engineer in charge of the east coast main line modernisation and electrification, and it called in the west coast main line privateers. Don Heath was asked how much of his total budget was spent on project management, and he said 1%. The privateers were asked how much of their budget was spent on project management, and they said 50%. It was 50 times more. Direct employment by a dedicated engineer working for BR compared with a mass of private companies and subcontractors speaks for itself.
We want the direct employment of engineers; engineers in charge; engineers who care about the railways; and engineers who are permanently employed and have a life in the railway industry and believe in it. We want committed and responsible people in charge, not fly-by-night subcontractors.
I must not take too long, but I want to raise a few more issues before I finish. I put down an early-day motion a year ago to register my opposition to the use of agency and subcontracted labour. My EDM is quoted in our debate papers. It stated:
“further notes research undertaken by the RMT union and academics demonstrating that the complex network of contractors and subcontractors means there are tens of thousands of rail workers employed by a multitude of companies undertaking renewals and that substantial savings could be achieved if renewals were instead carried out in-house as was the case before railway privatisation”.
I made that point a year ago, and it is still true today.
The Office of Rail Regulation has recently found that Network Rail is in breach of its licence and that
“major asset failures, congested routes and poor management of track condition”
contributed to poor performance of the rail network in 2011.
Standardisation has collapsed as a result of the fragmentation of the railway industry. We have chaotic technical standards imposing massive costs and building up problems for the future. We have trackside land reserves being sold off—asset-stripped for profit—so track is no longer accessible for essential repair work, because the land alongside the track has been sold off. We have blue-sky contracts being issued whereby contractors are paid according to emerging costs. In other words, they can charge what they like; we will just pay the bill at the end of the day. All this needs fundamental change. With the right people at every level in the industry, we can do that, but it depends on Ministers, on Government and on the Department for Transport taking hold of Network Rail and transforming it into something that is fit for purpose.
Priti Patel (Witham) (Con)
Thank you for your forbearance, Mr Amess, as I had to remove myself from the debate earlier. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) on securing this debate. I will declare an interest, because I used to live near my hon. Friend’s constituency when I lived in Radlett, which is close to St Albans. When I first started my working career, I used to commute along the line that she referred to, so I know exactly how expensive it was then, as it is now, and I know how unreliable it has become. I am grateful to her for securing this debate today, because in my constituency in Witham and in the county of Essex we have many problems with Network Rail, as well as with our train operating companies, so I welcome the opportunity to discuss the prospect of reform and improvements in relationships with Network Rail. We have heard a vast range of different experiences of Network Rail’s entrenched attitudes and lack of accountability to consumers. I hope that we will see improvements in the next few years, particularly with the change in management at Network Rail.
From a constituency point of view, I am now focused on the new long-term post-2014 franchise agreement for Greater Anglia. That follows the two-year franchise that has just been secured by Abellio, my new train operating company, which will run from this month until 2014. The longer franchising agreement—I hope the Minister will look into it going forward—is of real significance, because we are looking for greater integration, whoever the operator is, and a good relationship with Network Rail. Frankly, the two have been separate for far too long, and there has not been enough accountability and co-operation. National Express had the Greater Anglia franchise until 31 January.
We want improved relationships, partly because commuters in Essex and in my constituency pay a lot of money. My constituents pay more than £4,000 a year for their season ticket into Liverpool street, and £5,000 if it includes zones one to six. The service was appalling under National Express, but we have had much wider issues and challenges because of Network Rail. Our train line goes into Liverpool Street, which means we also go through Stratford. The Minister will be aware that Stratford has been going through significant changes, with welcome improvements in the line over the past few years for the great Olympics, which will be coming to our great capital in the summer. However, my commuters have been disproportionately affected. All the commuters along the Greater Anglia line have been badly affected, and that has to be addressed.
Rail services in Essex, in my constituency and along the Greater Anglia line need improvement to cope with the increase in rail travel as Essex faces a significant growth in population. It is currently 1.4 million and is set to rise by more than 14% over the next 20 years, and yet there has been no investment in our rail infrastructure, in the tracks that go through Essex and Suffolk, all the way up to Norfolk. The Minister will be aware that MPs from along the line have come together to consider how we can work to secure long-term improvements in the relationship with Network Rail and our new franchise holder, and hopefully influence how we can get proper inward investment in our line.
It is fair to say that there are regular delays consistently across the line because of signalling problems, engineering works and congestion, particularly around Stratford and Liverpool Street, as I have already said. For my constituents, these journeys are nightmare journeys. Most of my constituents work in the City of London, so for them delays obviously have an economic effect in terms of their employment and what they contribute to our economy. We have severe issues with overcrowding, lack of seats and poor facilities. With the likes of National Express and Network Rail, the general customer satisfaction rating is abysmal, which is not sustainable. It must change and improve.
Mrs Main
Does my hon. Friend share my concern that High Speed 2 is being sold to the public on the grounds that people will be able to work on the train, which will be of benefit to the economy, and yet it sounds as though her constituents, like mine, regularly travel in cattle-truck conditions, and they certainly cannot work on the train? There could be an argument for putting the investment that is going into HS2 into improving our existing railways.
Priti Patel
I thank my hon. Friend for her intervention and for making very valid points. I am all for investment in our railways, which obviously comes at great cost to the public purse. I am also all for getting “bang for buck” for taxpayers—there is no doubt about that—but it seems somewhat disproportionate that we are spending a vast amount of money on one particular project when there are certain lines and services that need investment. They are crying out for investment right now.
In the south-east and in the eastern region of the country, we contribute a hell of a lot to the economy. Our commuters also pay a lot in rail fares and it is now incumbent upon the Government to listen to some of these points from across the wider rail network and to start securing some long-term and strategic investment because, as I say, our constituents contribute a lot to the economy.
Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that there is also a desperate need for a third line between London’s Liverpool Street and Broxbourne? Those of us who travel between those stations, including those of us who use the Stansted Express, know that, for 17 miles, commuters are faced with intolerable delays, which is holding back investment in new housing, new infrastructure and business?
Priti Patel
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, and I absolutely agree with him. My constituency is 15 minutes away from Stansted airport and I am very familiar with that line, in terms of people who use it and come into Stansted airport. Investment must be made.
I come back to the need for a strategic vision. It is all very well investing in HS2, but there must be a long-term strategic vision for our railways in this country that addresses the existing lines and services, as well as the growth areas. Let us face the fact that, although we are an island nation, our population is growing and we all have housing pressures in our areas. As a result, even more commuters will be coming on to the railways, which is something that Network Rail will have to address, along with the Department for Transport.
The existing train operating companies and the companies bidding for the franchises in the future must wake up to the fact that they cannot just take over and think they can inherit a service that is okay, when in fact it is not okay. They must be ambitious for our commuters and our constituents, and look at making long-term improvements. As I have already said, we need “bang for buck” for our commuters, because they are spending a lot of their hard-earned money on travelling on the railways. That is a vital consideration.
Rail and other transport infrastructure must be modernised to reflect the significant challenges from increasing demand across the country, including in the county of Essex and the rest of the eastern region. My constituency, the rest of the county of Essex and the rest of the eastern region are all particularly attractive locations for people to live and, obviously, to travel from in order to work in London. However, we desperately need the investment in infrastructure that I have talked about.
We must also sort out issues of reliability. As I have said, in my constituency we have had a change in franchisee to Abellio. Network Rail must improve its public relations and start to engage with consumers—the commuters—directly. It cannot hide behind the faceless organisation that it has become; it must become far more accountable. It receives huge public subsidy and it also likes to spend taxpayers’ money on staff bonuses, the levels of which have been inexcusable.
This issue is about railway services now and in the future. Commuters are paying more for their travel and they deserve to see significant improvements to services. They should be able to hold organisations such as Network Rail to account. There must be more avenues for commuters to gain redress, and there must be better consumer information. At the end of the day, Network Rail, the Department for Transport and the train operating companies must take a much more strategic approach to consumer services and to rail infrastructure as a whole.
I seek reassurances from the Minister that there will be a much stronger vision. The previous Government failed completely. In my part of the country, there has been no investment in our railways for so long now, and that is simply unsustainable. A long-term vision is absolutely required now. We have congestion pinch-points along our entire network, which must be addressed by Network Rail. We need the introduction of passing loops and the dualling of tracks. They cost money, but they should all be part of a long-term strategic vision, both for my part of the country and, crucially, for our overall rail network.
John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)
I also congratulate the hon. Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) on securing this debate. I know that offering such congratulations is usually done as an element of politesse in these debates, but I genuinely congratulate her. This debate has been really helpful, and having heard from both her and my hon. Friend the Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) there is not much more to be said really.
I am really pleased that the hon. Member for Reading East (Mr Wilson) had that wonderful experience with Network Rail, and I hope that that experience is transposed to other constituencies, because it is very rare that we receive such a report about Network Rail. I am also sure that he will want to pay tribute to former Members who have lobbied on behalf of Reading—for example, Martin Salter—to gain the project that he described and bring it to fruition.
I want to address a limited number of health and safety issues, as so much else has already been said about other matters. Before I do so, however, I want to talk about the issue of bonuses. Way back in 2009, I tabled an early-day motion on bonuses, which was a reflection of how unaccountable Network Rail was. On that occasion, I think 51 Members of the House signed that early-day motion, and it seemed to have cross-party support. It urged Network Rail not to go ahead with the payment of bonuses that year, because it was laying off 1,500 track maintenance workers at that time. My understanding is that the bonuses were paid, on some scale.
May I draw Members’ attention to another early-day motion—early-day motion 2681—that has been tabled on Network Rail annual bonuses? So far, 28 Members have signed it. It would be very helpful if that early-day motion was supported. It is worded on a cross-party basis and draws attention to the statement by the Secretary of State for Transport in The Daily Telegraph on 19 December 2011 that
“Passengers would be extremely surprised if Network Rail attempted to award bonuses next year in the light of this action by the ORR”.
I urge hon. Members on a cross-party basis to sign that early-day motion, as well as noting the expressions of concern that have been made today about the bonus situation at Network Rail.
I am interested in rail because in my constituency we have a railway estate at Hayes. It was constructed by the old Great Western Railway and then taken over by British Rail, and it was built to house railway workers. It still is a railway estate, although most of the properties have now been sold off. Nevertheless, it still houses railway workers and their families, so I have taken an interest in rail for the past 30 years, based on the practical experiences of my constituents as they report them to me.
I must say that, tragically, my interest in rail also results from what happened under Railtrack. One of my constituents was one of the drivers killed at Paddington as a result of the tragic accident there, and there was the accident at Southall, which is literally one mile down the track from my constituency, where people were also killed. That accident also involved some of my constituents. So, I have taken a particular interest in health and safety matters on the rail network as a result of those incidents and the dialogue that I have with my constituents who are represented by their unions, the RMT, TSSA and ASLEF.
With regard to health and safety, I want to raise the issue of crossings. A number of Members have waged a campaign over many years to ensure that we rid ourselves of the crossings that we have, which are so dangerous. We heard this week about the findings against Network Rail as a result of the tragic deaths at Elsenham in 2005. Network Rail made a statement—I think it was made in early January—that it is proceeding to eliminate the crossings that it has. It says:
“Network Rail has closed 500 level crossings across Britain since April 2009 and intends to close a further 250 by 31 March 2014.”
My view, and that of many Members, is clear, and it reflects the views of the industry’s workers: the programme for the elimination of crossings must continue, and all high-risk crossings that we have identified must be removed, particularly those on high-speed rails. Replacing them with underpasses and bridges is the only way to ensure people’s safety. All other level crossings should be reassessed, with the ultimate aim of removing them also from Britain’s rail network. Although Network Rail has made its statement about the pace of change up until 2014, I urge it to consider how to increase that pace, to eliminate the risk.
The health and safety risks that resulted from privatisation, particularly from contracting out, are well documented. With Railtrack, there was contracting out—subcontracting—and then there was subcontracting of subcontracts, which meant that there was a failure to manage and monitor the quality of work. That was combined with cuts, particularly in front-line staff, even though there seemed to be a flourishing of management levels of bureaucracy within the company, which resulted in a high risk to workers on the tracks and the trains, including the drivers, and also, importantly, to the passengers. Track maintenance was brought back in to Network Rail, which was a major breakthrough, but we seem to be going down the same path as before, with a combination of a drive for cuts—it is argued that they are efficiency savings, but I would like to evidence that they are direct cuts—and potentially more contracting out. We seem to be replicating Railtrack’s mistakes.
In the current control period, 4, Network Rail is looking for the same level of efficiency savings as McNulty has called for, of about 30%, and they seem to be coming from direct cuts to staff. I shall read out some of the concerns that individual workers and groups of workers around the country have raised, via the RMT. I have met groups of staff as I have held meetings with union representatives. The signals and telecom teams in Scotland
“have been reduced from three to two workers, resulting in a large backlog in maintenance work, leading to the company offering 12-hour overtime shifts in an attempt to clear that backlog.”
That was a criticism we had of Railtrack. Front-line staff numbers were cut and teams reduced, and therefore to achieve cuts and savings long hours of overtime were worked, which had an impact on staff’s ability to maintain safety levels.
Another current concern is that maintenance gangs:
“in Scotland are faced with vacancies being left unfilled. Furthermore, cover is not being provided when gang members take annual leave, are on long-term sick or undertake extended periods of higher-grade duty.”
Again, we had those same problems under Railtrack, with gaps in front-line service provision. The workers also report that budgetary constraints have meant that signals and telecoms teams
“from Carlisle and Warrington are filling vacancies by working overtime. The effect is that gang members are working long and arduous hours with potentially serious consequences for both health and safety at work and the integrity of the infrastructure itself.”
In the north-west of England
“track inspections are now taking place every two weeks rather than the previous once a week inspection regime.”
Members might recall that under British Rail there were track inspections three times a week, so we have gone from that to once a week, and now to once every two weeks. In some of the recent reports, the accidents have been specifically connected to the track, and the lack of adequate inspection.
I can remember the debates in the House about another problem:
“RMT inquiries into the cause of the disastrous overruns over Christmas and New Year 2007/08 found that in the Overhead Line division vacancies were being left unfilled for long periods of time…the Doncaster OHL depot had a staff compliment of 40, however at that time there were 7 vacancies that had been unfilled for some considerable time. This represented a staff shortage of almost 18%.”
Yet another concern is that in
“the Anglia region S&T Teams have also been reduced to 2 workers. Where work is planned and risk assessed in advance this can on rare occasions be an acceptable practice”
because at least management can assess the work that the signals and telecoms team is going to undertake. However, in a rapid response fault team the workers do not know in advance what they are going to face, and when or where they will have work on the track, and that results almost certainly in risk but also in further delays in the work being done properly. Also in the Anglia region there are further reductions in the rate of track maintenance inspections.
What I am trying to point to is that sometimes we need to talk to the people on the very front line of the delivery of the service, which is what a number of us have done. Reports are coming back from around the country that because of the pressure under control period 4, which is looking for 30% cuts—and under the McNulty recommendations they will roll into control period 5—front-line staff are being cut and the number of inspections reduced, which will inevitably lead to the same problems we had with Railtrack, which resulted in one of my constituents dying.
Kelvin Hopkins
I support everything my hon. Friend has said about inspections and track. A little over 10 years ago, in the last days of Railtrack, I was asked by a friend from inside the industry to look at the track north of Hadley Wood tunnel, which is not far from where I live. It is a significant bit of track. My friend was seriously concerned, and wanted me to raise the matter with John Prescott, who was then responsible for railways. I did not manage to get down with my camera because I was too busy. Just north of that track are Potters Bar and Hatfield. I think that the two might be connected.
[Andrew Rosindell in the Chair]
John McDonnell
I can only state as baldy and starkly as I can that what my hon. Friend has just said is that we have been here before, under Railtrack, and that we seem to be replicating the experience under Network Rail. Everyone wants to look at the drive for efficiency and the reduction of costs, but all the reports we have seen so far are not about the lack of efficiency of front-line staff. The increasing costs are a result of the fragmentation of the industry, the division between rail and operations, and the lack of co-ordinated management across the network. My hon. Friend spelt out very clearly in his speech that that is where we fail in comparisons with the rest of Europe, where there is an integrated railway system that enables those efficiencies and economies of scale to be made. Network Rail is looking for savings and efficiencies in the worst possible way, by reducing front-line staff and increasing the pressure on specialists working on the ground, which results, I think, in increased risks to the health and safety of workers and passengers.
Will the Minister clarify when the Government’s White Paper is to emerge? I hope that we can have a genuine debate on the document and that we can go at it with a blank sheet of paper, a tabula rasa for putting our ideas back in. I hope that we do not have prejudices against public ownership, but that we look at what will work. The lessons from Railtrack, and now from Network Rail, are about investment in front-line services and about ensuring that if we are looking for savings we do so by overcoming the fragmentation. We must support those people working at the front line under the tiers of bureaucratic management we have had for decades, under both Railtrack and Network Rail.
Those are just reports collected from across the country. One exercise we could do during the discussions on the White Paper—I know we have done this before—is an extensive consultation across the country with the trade unions that represent front-line workers to get a feel for what is happening on the ground. Ultimately, it was the workers on the ground who exposed what was happening within Railtrack and eventually forced the change. Tragically, that change came too late for a number of my constituents, one of whom was killed in the accident at Paddington while others were seriously injured at Southall. I hope we have learnt the lesson from that and that in the White Paper discussions, we will look to the longer-term future of investing in an integrated system in which workers and passengers have much more democratic control and say.
Mr Brian Binley (Northampton South) (Con)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell, newly come as you are. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) on obtaining the debate and on her speech. As many contributors have said, this is a vital debate. I hope that many of her comments will be recognised by the Minister and acted upon, because action is needed.
I pay tribute to those hon. Members who have contributed to the debate. By the nature of their contributions, I know that they take the subject seriously. I want especially to congratulate the hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins), who has a long interest, massive enthusiasm and great knowledge of the subject. It is always a pleasure to listen to him, because he always speaks in such a friendly and good manner, which is a lesson to us all. I welcome this opportunity to discuss Network Rail, which is vital to the nation’s economy and well-being. That underlines the importance of the debate.
I declare an interest as chairman of the Northampton rail users group. Consequently, I will contain my remarks to issues specifically affecting my constituency. On that basis, I wish to explore three themes: the factors that make rail travel from Northampton increasingly unbearable, the urgency with which the rail industry must get a grip on its cost base—a matter that has been mentioned on a number of occasions—and the pressing issue of capacity and the need to face up to what must be done to relieve that pressure, especially for my constituents in Northampton South.
That leads me to the west coast main line, which is the nation’s most important rail artery and has the ability, given supplementation, to add enormously to our economic well-being, especially in Manchester, Leeds and the areas north of Birmingham. The current daily capacity crunch is intolerable for the west coast main line’s users and will become increasingly so as the months and years go by. Network Rail’s most recent assessment is that the line will be full to capacity by 2024. Some expert railwaymen—a number of whom sit on my rail users group, I am pleased to say—would argue that that capacity might be reached quite a bit earlier. So we are talking about an important matter.
Kelvin Hopkins
The hon. Gentleman is again making a very effective speech. Two possibilities could alleviate the problem of capacity on the west coast main line fairly quickly: we could develop and improve the line from Paddington to Birmingham Snow Hill to make it an express route, and we could develop a dedicated freight line to free up the west coast main line for more passenger traffic.
Mr Binley
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that contribution, which I am sure the Minister has noted. My particular favourite is to ensure that High Speed 2 comes into being and is taken further, to Manchester and Leeds, because there is no doubt that transport systems cannot operate efficiently under the current pressures. That is one reason why we have the problems that we do, and it is one reason why the track is constantly in need of maintenance and repair, which makes the hold-ups even worse. We simply have to relieve that pressure. That is why I am a major supporter of High Speed 2. I argue that we should do our best to bring it forward as quickly as possible. I do not want to see High Speed 2 up and operating in 2030; I would much rather hear the Minister say, “We can make a target of 2024.” If the Chinese can put up a hotel in 14 days, we can do a little better than 2030.
I pay tribute to London Midland, because it has achieved a modicum of success, but that needs to be seen alongside the pressure. I feel for London Midland. I think it has many faults, but it is battling against a difficult situation. I make the point again that Rugby has been a problem in recent months. Rail travellers hate to get off at Northampton to circumvent Rugby by bus or, equally, to circumvent Milton Keynes going the other way.
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
I am distressed to hear my hon. Friend describe Rugby in such terms. We have a brilliant rail service and a fast-growing town, so I hope that he would look a little more kindly upon my constituency.
Mr Binley
We are on the other end of your line, mate, and I can tell you that the service is not as good as you argue. Otherwise, all my constituents would not be as up in arms and as dissatisfied as they are. My hon. Friend knows very well that we use quite a bit of the same line, and I do not believe that two towns so close together can have such differing views on the quality of rail transport in their area.
I turn to the problems specific to Northampton. The Government wish Northampton to be a growth area and have said that they want Northampton to build 56,000 extra houses by 2026, which will mean a population increase of 120,000—a 50% growth—yet where those people will work is a major question. Many of them will come from the south-east, especially London, thus alleviating the housing problems of that area. Consequently, commuting will become even more important. My guess is that there will be at least another 12,000 to 14,000 regular commuters on the link from Northampton through Milton Keynes down to Euston.
Commuting is becoming prohibitively expensive for the people of Northampton. As I have said, we will have 120,000 additional residents, at least 12,000 of whom will commute to London for work, yet the cost of an annual season ticket from Northampton to London is now £4,756, and a staggering £5,628 for those who need to go further on the underground. That does not take into account £815 in parking charges. All that is more than a quarter of the disposable income of a person on a £30,000 salary.
Many people will ask whether they can really afford to look to London to continue to provide them with employment. Many of them might even decide that it is not worth being employed at all, given the cost of commuting to a job in London. The major reason why people are moving to Northampton to fill the houses that I have talked about is that they cannot afford houses in London and the south-east. These people are the service workers of our great city. They provide vital services, but they are not highly paid. They do not work in the City, making millions on small money transactions—by small, I do not refer to volume, but to the difference between buying and selling. They are not those sort of people; they work in our restaurants, retail outlets and offices. Although £30,000 is a reasonably good salary in Northampton, if people have to pay a quarter of that to travel to their job, that is a pretty bad deal that needs to be looked at seriously.
Let me turn to the problem of the McNulty review. It seems that the Government for ever think that rail increases are a battle between the taxpayer and the consumer, but there is a third element: the service provider. McNulty was open about his concerns about the cost base of the rail providers and talked about prices being 30% more expensive per passenger kilometre than other rail systems in a comparative group. They ought to be out of business, for God’s sake! No business can operate effectively at a 30% higher cost base and expect its consumers to continue to support it. Usually, they would simply go to another supplier, but therein lies the problem.
Mr Binley
Of course, that is right, but because Network Rail is a monopoly in some respects, it needs the Government and the regulator to be its friend and ensure that it operates competitively, but we know from McNulty that it does not. McNulty has also said that there is a subsidy of 31p per passenger kilometre at present, so there is 30% more cost and 31% subsidy. What would happen if those costs were reduced? In addition to the taxpayer and the consumer, there is a third factor in cost setting and cost payment—the train operators. Let a message go out loud and clear that they have a duty and a responsibility to care for their customers in a much more efficient way than at present.
I am concerned about Network Rail’s supply chains and the way in which it bids for jobs. When I was a managing director and wanted to get work done for my business, I would talk to a number of suppliers and ask, “What’s the best way of doing this? How do I achieve the most efficient answer for this job at the most efficient cost?” Are Members aware that Network Rail does not do that? It decides internally what it wants done and then goes to people to tender on the basis of its own decisions about how best to undertake the job. We have talked about the quality of middle management in Network Rail. No wonder that costs are so high when middle management is poor and does not even look for ways to be more efficient by talking to suppliers who know what they are doing in relation to a given task.
Kelvin Hopkins
The hon. Gentleman is making yet another strong point. One of the problems in Network Rail is that contractors are required to work rigidly to specifications, even when those specifications are wrong. In British Rail’s day, the engineers locally would find out whether things were wrong and correct them as they went along.
Mr Binley
The hon. Gentleman talks some truth. I have never known a business man say that he wants an end product, only to ignore the supplier and say, “I’m not bothered about what you tell me is the efficient way to do it. This is how we are going to do it, because we know best.” But we do not know best—that is the reason why I would get a supplier in the first place.
Mike Weatherley (Hove) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that part of the problem is the blame culture that has developed at various points in Network Rail’s history?
Mr Binley
I do not know about that, but I have been interested in running efficient businesses all my life and I know that this is not efficient. That is what I am bothered about, and that is why I say to the Government that it is their job to make sure that it is efficient. If there are bad practices of this kind, it is the Government’s job to change things. The Minister represents all the consumers. They look to him as a kindly father who looks after their interests, and I am sure that he will do so.
I restate my full and enthusiastic support for high-speed rail. It is not about speed, and the nonsense about getting to Birmingham 20 minutes sooner is not the reason why it is important either. Of course, if we are to build a new railway, it must be the best that it can possibly be. Therefore, it must be the quickest and most efficient that it can possibly be. The real reason why high-speed rail is important, however, is capacity. My good friend the hon. Member for Luton North will tell us that we can only get so many trains on a line in a given hour. High-speed rail is about slots on the line and capacity. Rail will be oversubscribed by 2024—some people believe sooner—which is why high-speed rail is so vital.
Let us not have facile arguments about whether it is worth paying more to get to Birmingham sooner. That is not the point. The point is whether we get to Birmingham at all. Let that be a lesson to those who oppose High Speed 2. I know people who live in Manchester, Leeds and other such areas who know that there is a blockage in Birmingham. They know that it is increasingly difficult to go by rail through Birmingham and down to London and the south-east and then to the continent. They are looking to this Government to ensure that their part of HS2 is completed. I repeat that it is a massively important investment for the country in economic and social terms, and in ensuring that our children and grandchildren are employed on a good salary. I recommend that the Minister bring it forward to 2024. That is a target to set and, if he accomplishes that task, he will deserve a knighthood.
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
I add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) on securing the debate, because, following on from my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley), the activities of whichever body is responsible for the management of our railway network have a significant impact on many of my constituents in Rugby, not only those who are commuters, travellers and users of the network, but those who live close to the railway. I shall talk about issues affecting that latter group in a moment.
The railway is important to the town of Rugby and its surrounding villages. The west coast main line runs through it. Our 50-minute service to Euston is operated by Virgin, and other trains, which take slightly longer and stop more regularly, are operated by London Midland. I do not have as much experience in the House as many other Members present, so I cannot outline history in the same way, but I intend to address three matters that affect the railway in Rugby that have been drawn to my attention in the 18 or so months since I became a Member of Parliament, two of which relate to the upgrade of the west coast main line that started in 2003 and was completed in 2008. Many of my constituents have told me about the massive disruption that they have experienced throughout that period.
I want to talk first about one of the major projects that Network Rail ran: the improvements at Rugby station that took place between 2006 and 2008. After listening to the account of my hon. Friend the Member for Reading East (Mr Wilson), it seems that his constituents are going through much of the disruption and uncertainty that my constituents went through over a period of two years. The improvements that have taken place are highly welcome. Notwithstanding the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South, the first impressions of Rugby have been transformed. It no longer seems to be an ugly, unattractive town where arrivals have to pass down a dark and dingy tunnel. People now arrive at a modern and vibrant building that exemplifies all that is good about the town of Rugby as a go-ahead and positive location for business.
Mr Binley
May I confirm that Northampton is on a loop line? Although the main line from Rugby works very well indeed, the loop line from Rugby through Northampton and down to Milton Keynes does not. If my hon. Friend could pay a little heed to that, I would be very grateful.
Mark Pawsey
Absolutely. My hon. Friend will expect me to stand up for my constituents who receive a good service. It is very important that we maintain that service, whether or not high-speed eventually takes place.
My hon. Friend the Member for St Albans referred to the accountability of Network Rail in the costing and management of its projects. Although we have a great new station at Rugby, there are very serious questions about how much it cost to deliver. Some of those questions were aired on the BBC “Panorama” programme on 16 January, when reporters were advised by the Office of Rail Regulation that soaring costs were an oversight, but that it was not possible to determine by how much the project had overspent. Our local newspaper, the Rugby and Lutterworth Observer, spoke to a member of the Rugby rail users group who talked about setbacks in the construction process leading to train services being stopped simply because Network Rail was unable to complete its work on time. The hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) drew attention to that issue.
We have got a new station, but the second matter regarding the changes at Rugby is the noise nuisance from the new track that has arisen since the works upgrade on the west coast main line. I have met Network Rail staff and approximately 25 residents to try to resolve that matter. In most cases, we are talking about residents who have lived in the area for many years. They had got used to living with the railway before the upgrade and were familiar and comfortable with the noise.
Many of the works that took place in Rugby were intended to enable trains to pass faster through Rugby station. Of course, the faster that trains travel—the higher the speed that they run at—the more noise is generated. In the district of Hillmorton, there are two separate noises: first, the absolute noise that the trains make; and secondly, a distinctive one-off thud is heard each time a train passes. I will come to that in a moment.
On major noise levels, my constituent Peter Bayliss invited me into his garden to listen to the noise. He showed me hand-held sound meter readings of between 89 and 90 dB for trains passing through at great speed. That was not previously a problem because, under the old alignment, trains slowed down to pass through the station. There appears to be no resolution to the issues faced by Mr Bayliss and his neighbours.
Kelvin Hopkins
The M1 goes through my constituency and I have persuaded the Government to build noise barriers, which have made a considerable difference. Would noise barriers help in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency?
Mark Pawsey
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his advice. We are continuing to talk about the problem, but we are effectively being stonewalled by Network Rail.
The thud has been the subject of correspondence between me and Mr Higgins, the chief executive, who has been mentioned. My most recent letter from Mr Higgins in that regard was dated 27 January. I was invited into a resident’s upstairs room, so that I could understand the impact of that noise disturbance. I will not detain hon. Members by telling them which room the lady constituent invited me into, but I was able to hear a very distinctive thud each time a train passed. The lady told me that the noise wakes her regularly in the morning. I use the line regularly, and as a passenger, I can identify the sound. The noise comes from something that I understand is called a switch and cross, which is a device that allows trains to maintain their speed. In his letter, Mr Higgins tells me that there is absolutely no fault with the equipment. That is something my constituents will have to live with.
In both instances, my constituents had come to live with the railway over many years and were comfortable with it. There has now been significant change. I do not think that Network Rail has taken that on board. There is little prospect of remediation for my constituents.
Kelvin Hopkins
I am sorry about that. Another suggestion is a floating slab track, whereby the track is insulated from the source of the noise and the vibration is taken out of the ground. That is another very good method of noise reduction.
Mark Pawsey
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his advice and guidance, but I would have hoped that Network Rail would refer those things to me when I presented the problems to it. In each case, neither remedy has been proposed. Network Rail should be more responsive to a broader group of people, not only those who use the railway and its operators, but those who live by it. As a result of the improvements to the west coast main line, those people have had their quality of life significantly impaired.
My hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South referred to his enthusiasm for HS2. Those who live close to the line or who are disrupted by the building of high-speed rail will be massively compensated for the disturbance and there will be all sorts of remedial measures. Unfortunately, I am talking about an upgrade to an existing line and my constituents will not receive those benefits.
The third issue that I should like to raise is access to the west coast main line during construction of the Rugby western relief road by Warwickshire county council. That long-awaited road, which was designed to relieve traffic pressure in our town centre, eventually opened to traffic on 10 September 2010. The works required the demolition of a road bridge at Parkfield road and the construction of a new bridge on a different alignment. For a variety of reasons, the history of that road’s development shows that it was not a successful project. The costs rose from the original estimate of £36.5 million to a final out-turn of around £60 million, with a substantial delay in delivery.
A report prepared by the county council draws attention to the reasons for both the increased cost and the delay. A substantial reason given was that problems arose in gaining access to Network Rail land to get necessary works done. There was some difficulty in getting—again, this is a technical term—forms A and B approved by Network Rail. That led to uncertainty in predicting when certain works could start, which, in isolation, added a cost of £2.3 million to the project. In addition, the reprogramming of some work in the diversion of a 25 kV power supply added £635,000 to the project.
The entire issue was the subject of a letter from the leader of Warwickshire county council to the then Secretary of State for Transport dated 5 September 2011. That letter refers to the need for a works agreement with Network Rail before any work can be carried out and to the delays in getting that agreement. I understand that a template is being negotiated by the County Surveyors Society. In this instance, gaps have been left that have led in turn to issues of contention.
The problem is that Warwickshire county council felt obliged to accept the terms imposed on it by Network Rail, which was the dominant partner in the arrangement. The county council certainly believes that Network Rail was less than constructive in enabling the bringing forward of a project that would give broader economic and community benefits. The county council has called for a review to establish more equitable terms, with regard to the wider public interest. Will the Minister comment on that? I raise the point today to support such a review.
Rail connections are very important in my constituency and, as we have heard, in the whole country. We clearly need efficient management of our track. I hope that the issues raised today will lead to improvements in how we operate and maintain this essential public service.
Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)
It is a great pleasure to participate in this debate under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. I was delighted to secure the debate, led by my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans (Mrs Main). On behalf of us all, I would like to ask the Minister to pass on our best wishes to my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, Department for Transport, who has responsibility for rail, who has sadly had an accident. I understand that she is back on her feet. I hope that she makes a swift recovery. I know she is very resilient, but I hope she gets the rest she needs to make a full recovery.
Network Rail is 10-years-old this year. We all know how, why and when it came into existence. It is timely and appropriate to have this debate, especially as just over a month ago the Office of Rail Regulation served a notice of breach of licence to Network Rail on two fronts: on long-distance rail and on freight rail services. I have a particular interest in freight rail, which I will come to later in my speech.
One point that has been well expressed—I will try not to repeat too many points that have already been made—is that there has been some progress with Sir David Higgins. However, that does not mean that his job already requires significant six-figure bonuses. I am sure I am not the only person whose eyebrows were raised on understanding that that would be the case. I encourage the remuneration committee of Network Rail to consider carefully—having received those two breaches and considering the ongoing challenges that our constituents face—whether that bonus would be appropriate. I have no problem at all with rewarding success, but I cannot say at the moment that there has been great success on our rail network.
Since the debate was announced, I have had a very quick response from Network Rail. I commend my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans, because I understand that she would not meet with Network Rail until the debate had taken place. I did meet people from Network Rail. It was fantastic that my original query from last summer, which I followed up in October and again in January, was finally answered—good news. It also gave me the opportunity to meet Dave Ward, who has been put in charge of the East Anglia region. He talked about some of the changes that have already happened, and what he plans to do. I will give praise where praise is due: I like some of the changes that have been proposed. However, the proof will be in the pudding.
I want to mention briefly factors beyond control, which have been talked about. Perhaps this is degenerating the debate, but Network Rail has often been called “Not work rail” or “Network fail”. The wrong kind of leaves and the wrong kind of snow—these factors are difficult and I accept that. Extraordinary incidents will happen; for example, burst water mains. Cable theft has been a growing problem. The Government have responded. That response perhaps took longer than everybody wanted, but they have done the right thing in tabling an amendment on tackling metal theft, which will include aspects of cable theft. Network Rail could have done more itself to assess the security of its own lines, whether through technology, or through the good old-fashioned use of people to check what is going on. Indeed, Mr Ward suggested to me that he is spending £2 million on security patrols to try to ensure that such theft does not happen, or at least that it is reduced, and I welcome that.
I also want to mention two Members who cannot be here today. My hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Ben Gummer), who also helped to secure the debate, is opening the wing of a hospital, or something like that, in Ipswich. I pay tribute to his relentless work in trying to improve and secure investment for the greater Anglia area. My hon. Friend the Member for Witham (Priti Patel) has already spoken about the challenges for that line, so I will not repeat them. My hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich has also been working with my hon. Friend the Member for Norwich North (Miss Smith) on the Norwich in 90 and the Suffolk in 60 campaigns, bringing together MPs from across all three counties to ensure that we get a better service.
The other hon. Member who cannot be here is my hon. Friend the Member for Lincoln (Karl MᶜCartney). He also has to meet constituents today, and he wanted me to plug the fact that he is fed up with Network Rail. Anyone who has ever been to Lincoln will know that the railway line dissects it. He believes that the latest proposals for freight will mean that the level crossing will be closed for 40 minutes in every hour in daylight hours. He does not think that that is acceptable, and that is a fair point.
On issues of cost and time, we have heard some interesting ideas about what the right thing to do is. Is the right thing to go back to integration, or is it to introduce more competition? My first interaction with Network Rail came about after we lost the hourly service, which had been agreed before I became the Member of Parliament. Passengers had to change trains—there was no through train all the way to Lowestoft and they had to change at Ipswich. That meant that passengers who were not so mobile, or those with heavy luggage, had to be escorted across the tracks. On a very tight connection time of perhaps less than six minutes, that did not always feel very safe or ideal. In fact, passengers ended up going outside the canopy and out into the open elements. Wet or icy weather added to the problem.
Network Rail was supposed to build a footbridge and lifts. It did so, but they were several months late and cost £2.7 million. I understand that £1 million a lift is the going rate, which leads me on to a general point. Everything from Network Rail seems to be costed in units of £1 million: do we want a level crossing? “Yeah, that will be £1 million.” A new academy school building is being built and more children will use a particular route on the way to school. Network Rail has lodged an objection in respect of Runnacles Way, because children walk across there. A bridge is required, which might cost £1 million, or it might cost £2 million. Meanwhile, someone who has been doing some contracting work for the Environment Agency—which used to have the same problem in my view; everything was very expensive—reckons that he can build the bridge for approximately £150,000.
We should not accept that everything costs £1 million or more. That is why I was encouraged by the changes—I think it is called the devolution principle—that allow directors to take control of their regions. The Network Rail group that currently does a lot of small projects will be opened up. Pilots are being conducted to find out whether other firms can bid for tender. Indeed, Abellio, the new franchisee that comes online within the week, has said that it would strongly consider doing that; it does maintenance projects in the Netherlands. That presents an opportunity, but without the complexity that adds cost through procurement, as the hon. Member for Luton North (Kelvin Hopkins) said. However, we need to do something about value for money. We should not accept that the cost of everything is in units of £1 million. Network Rail pulled its finger out with the floods in Cumbria and rebuilt a station in three days, which was fantastic. I would love to see that happen everywhere.
Kelvin Hopkins
The hon. Lady is making a strong point about cost. British Rail used to have cash-limited projects that worked within cash limits. The engineers and the directly employed people said, “How do we do this as cheaply as possible? We have to work within the cash limits and we want to do the best job possible.” That actually worked, and is one of the reasons why cost was low in BR’s day.
Dr Coffey
The hon. Gentleman has more experience than me on those matters. Some interesting ideas are coming out today—I am sure that the Minister will take note of them—about building not just to spec, but being part of the design solution, and about other activities being constrained within a budget.
I should like to thank Network Rail, Suffolk county council and the Government for putting aside the money to ensure that we get the Beccles loop, which will reintroduce an hourly service all the way through to Lowestoft, as opposed to our only getting trains every two hours beyond a certain point. That improvement should be in by the end of this year.
Level crossings are a big challenge in my constituency. I respect the ambition of the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) to see no level crossings at all, but I do not believe it is feasible. I live in a rural area with nine stations and 50 crossings, but many of those are bridges built a long time ago, back in Victorian times. Of the 27 level crossings in my constituency, only 11 have automated barriers. Eight have to be opened by hand. People drive up, get out of their car and walk to the gates, use the phone, open both gates, drive over, and then come back and close the gates. Those are the examples we could find; we have been doing a bit of research. I have used such a crossing and, as hon. Members can imagine, I have avoided using that route again.
In eight places there are just lights, with no barriers at all. Two of those are on A roads, one with 15,000 traffic movements per day. There have not been that many accidents, but I am not sure whether that is due to the design or people’s patience. It is such a crossing that I have been chasing Network Rail about—the one that will cost £1 million for installing two barriers—and I am delighted to say that I was told that it would be done by 2013. I am delighted that Network Rail has committed to doing that, but its challenge is to try to do that more cheaply. I want the response paper to contain something about how we are going to tackle some of those matters. The example that I have mentioned is not the only level crossing that is needed.
In a rural area, I would rather have routes than roads blocked off. If there were an insistence on there being no level crossings at all—just an underpass or bridge—quite a lot of mobility within rural areas would be compromised. It is about taking a risk-based approach and seeing whether we can do something about some of the crossings where people have to get in and out of their cars, and so on.
I welcome the change in who can bid for work, which will be piloted. I understand that Anglia will be part of that pilot. However, it is critical that there is transparency. I want Network Rail to report on how many projects are internal and external. Starting to show value for money and the percentage, or value, of work being done externally would be a useful barometer.
Mrs Main
My hon. Friend is making a powerful speech. When I was looking to research this debate—I did not want to get too involved—I was amazed, in respect of contract tendering, that Network Rail’s costs for a job seem to be padded out with all the worst-case scenarios and it comes up with a massive figure and adds a bit on top for good luck. If everybody operated like that, nobody would be awarded the tender. Network Rail would be forced to produce a better set of figures if others were allowed to tender as well.
Dr Coffey
My hon. Friend makes another important contribution. I worked at the BBC for a short while, so I recognise that contingency can be a big part of any project cost. I also recognise that things sometimes go wrong and that people have to react quickly. I mentioned earlier an analogy with the Environment Agency. Some works were done by the internal drainage board. Funnily enough, the framework contractor for the Environment Agency cost about three times as much as other contractors. We do not want to fall into the trap of—I had better use my words carefully—the establishment figures being the only ones that end up doing the work, because they are almost part of the same circle. I think that that is the best way of saying it.
I welcome the closer collaboration. Abellio will be involved. There is a challenge for the industry. Things are already happening as a result of the McNulty review, before the Government have published the Command Paper. I am delighted about that.
Other things are useful, too, including technology. My remarks at this point may answer some points raised by the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington, who mentioned checking activity. I understand that things can be added to train roofs so that, instead of a visual check happening however often, a constant check can be made every time a train goes up and down a line. Simple ideas such as that one, which may cost a bit of capital—I get that—will build in some resilience. Instead of people being paid, frankly, to walk up and down—I am not saying that that should be got rid of entirely—such technology could be used to judge more intelligently the schedule of maintenance that needs to be done.
John McDonnell
That is exactly what the teams do now. They are not just walking the track; they are mobile and use new technology as well, but even teams that use new technology have been cut back recently.
Dr Coffey
I thank the hon. Gentleman for adding that point. Such technology has not been put on to the East Suffolk line and East Suffolk trains, so that is news to me, although clearly not news to him.
Hon. Members have already mentioned the finger-pointing. My hon. Friend the Member for Mid Norfolk (George Freeman) made an interesting contribution about whether alliances are enough or whether there should be mergers in respect of this whole operation, having train and track together. Let us challenge the way that Network Rail is structured and ask whether it is fit for purpose to deliver ongoing improvements and what we need.
On structure and governance, we have already talked about the complex structure that was devised in 2002. The coalition agreement specifically says that it will make Network Rail more accountable to customers. We look forward to the Government’s move on that. It would be useful to do something radical with Network Rail’s board and, instead of the 100 members, move to a 12-person board, for example, with a passenger group focus as part of that. Trying to manage that complexity is difficult. Hopefully, such a new process would allow for more focus.
I call on the Office of Rail Regulation to be focused on that in regulating Network Rail. The possibility of it going into train operating companies and other companies may be in the coalition agreement, but I would rather it stuck to the knitting and got that right before going into other matters. Passengers are clear when they are not happy about services. One way to try to regulate that matter would be to build it into the franchise or something similar.
I encourage Network Rail to stick to what it is good at doing. I was disappointed to hear—it has gone off the idea, thank heavens—that it considered setting itself up as a broadband operator. It is a clever idea to use things alongside the tracks to carry fibre, and similar, but the thought of its being in competition with BT Openreach was bizarre. Working with somebody who knows something is fine, as is becoming a conduit, but thankfully the idea that it would be the rival to BT Openreach went away.
Why am I interested in freight? Felixstowe, the leading container port, is in my constituency. It has rail terminals and a new one is going to be built. Putting freight on to rail is an important part of trying to reduce the percentage of freight on our roads. The Government are keen to do that, because it is good environmentally and it reduces demand on the key arterial roads throughout the country.
I encourage Network Rail to work with Hutchison at the port of Felixstowe so that it puts dualling in earlier. Due to the economic challenges that Hutchison said it was facing, it secured permission from Suffolk Coastal district council to delay that activity and had its planning permission extended, but it would make sense to do it now.
Some work has already been agreed—certainly, the consultation is starting—on the Ipswich chord, which, for hon. Members not familiar with Suffolk, would just add a bit of extra track, but means that, instead of many freight trains going into London and then out again to get to the north, those can go straight up towards Nuneaton. That makes a lot of sense and will free up a lot of capacity. To give Members a view of the costs, a 1 km stretch of track will be £41 million. Admittedly, that is not only for the steel on the track but for all the complexity of the other aspects. That is another example of the eye-watering amounts of money required for what one would like to think of as straightforward—perhaps I should not say that—key projects.
I also put in a bid for work at the Ely North junction, which would help freight traffic as well as certain passenger routes. Network Rail has a tough time with freight when connecting seaports; if Felixstowe or Liverpool close down, because of wind, rough seas or whatever, there is a bit of a problem. Dare I say it, however, the Network Rail people are paid a lot of money to solve difficult problems, so they must build that resilience into their timetabling and capacity building. The answer is not to do what happened to my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans, who suddenly had half the number of trains, because that is not acceptable.
Network Rail is a fascinating organisation. It is a case study of what can go well and of what can go wrong. However, the constituents of Suffolk Coastal and, more broadly, people throughout the country are fed up of being left waiting. It is vital that the Government grab the chance offered by the McNulty review and the Command Paper to put passengers and businesses first. Network Rail can be made to work, potentially, but the proof will be in the pudding, and I suggest to Sir David Higgins that, if we do not see much change within another year, we must question whether he has the capacity to make the changes necessary.
I thank all Members who have spoken so far. My hon. Friend the Member for St Albans will be winding up. I have enjoyed the debate and I genuinely think that there have been some fresh ideas that the Minister will absorb.
John Woodcock (Barrow and Furness) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Rosindell. I add my congratulations on securing the debate to the hon. Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) and her colleagues. I echo the words of the hon. Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) in that, while it is always a delight to face the Under-Secretary of State for Transport, the hon. Member for Lewes (Norman Baker), we hope that the Minister of State, Department for Transport, the right hon. Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs Villiers), has a speedy recovery, hastened by not watching the debate and getting some rest.
The debate has been good and has included a number of powerful and well-informed contributions. I particularly enjoyed the Punch and Judy performance between the hon. Members for Rugby (Mark Pawsey) and for Northampton South (Mr Binley). On this occasion, I will resist the temptation to make another contribution about High Speed 2, leaving for another day the thuds that can be heard from the upper room of a home in the constituency of the hon. Member for Rugby.
The debate has rightly had a repeated focus on the performance and accountability of Network Rail. As hon. Members have pointed out, the debate is particularly timely given that, shortly before Christmas, the Office of Rail Regulation said that it considered Network Rail to be in breach of its licence for reliability in the freight sector and likely to be in breach for long-distance passenger services. In both sectors, performance is declining at a worrying rate. End-of-year targets for 2011 were missed and ORR remains to be convinced that Network Rail is doing all that it can to improve reliability. A striking fact that should be re-emphasised is that Network Rail has already admitted that it will not meet its 2012 target for punctuality, and yet we learn that that organisation believes that this is the right moment to put forward a fresh reward scheme worth up to 500% of salary over five years.
To state the blindingly obvious, the reliability of train service leaves a lot to be desired in so many parts of the country. The statistics are clear. In 2011, more than one in 10 long-distance services was more than 10 minutes late. Such underperformance is frustrating for passengers, damaging to business and, potentially, a real and significant drag on overall economic performance in the country and the regions. We need a railway that performs better, not least because hard-pressed passengers are being asked to pay fares that have recently risen by up to 13%.
The figures on the causes of delay are clear. A more reliable railway will require better performance from Network Rail. When our constituents complain to us about a delayed journey, the train operator as the shop front for the railway system tends to get it in the neck. Many operators, indeed, need to up their game, but month on month, year on year, the majority of delays are the responsibility of Network Rail. In the most recent period for which figures are available, the organisation was responsible for 646,000 minutes-worth of delays to trains, representing 59% of the overall total.
No one is pretending or should imagine that there is an easy solution. Network Rail, or whatever organisation or structure might be put in its place, is charged with operating a complex, extensive rail network that has seen differing levels of investment over many decades. There is more demand for rail travel now than in any peacetime period since the 1920s. Yes, some of the delays ascribed to Network Rail are largely outside its immediate control. In particular, as mentioned in the debate, cable theft has risen fast up the agenda in recent months. To dwell a moment on that, we now know that rising global metal prices have triggered an unprecedented level of theft of the more valuable metals, from the railways as from electricity suppliers, communications providers and, most despicably, churches and memorials. The theft of even a short stretch of signalling cabling from the railway can lead to the shutting down of huge sections of the network for hours on end, as we and our constituents have seen, causing immense disruption. In the current financial year, passengers are on course to suffer almost 7,000 hours-worth of delays because of cable theft, which would be a record.
Mrs Main
The hon. Gentleman is making a powerful point. Such cases are deemed to involve force majeure, however, and something over which Network Rail has no control, unless it was derelict in its duty to police the railway line. As such, Network Rail would not be seen to be failing, but I believe that it is failing on things over which it has control.
John Woodcock
That is an interesting point. We should examine repeatedly how such incentive mechanisms work.
In the case of cable theft, increased action and a tougher regulatory system are needed to enable Network Rail to perform better. Of concern is that it took so many instances of main lines and major stations coming to a halt before the Government were spurred to what we hope is greater action. Even though Ministers now seem prepared to legislate for a ban on cash sales of scrap metal, at the moment their actions fall short of what is required to end the scourge of thefts. Cashless transactions alone may prove too easy to circumvent. We need a licensing system for scrap metal dealers, strengthened police powers to enter premises that they suspect of selling stolen metal and to close such premises down if necessary, and a requirement to show verifiable identification, recorded at the point of sale, for all transactions.
Ministers still have an opportunity to put more comprehensive measures in the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill. They would have cross-party support in doing so. I am talking about measures that would genuinely put an end to the spiral of delay, disruption and extra cost being experienced by passengers and freight customers across the network. I hope that the Minister will outline whether he is prepared, from a transport point of view, to put pressure on his Home Office colleagues to go further on the matter.
There is a need for improved performance from Network Rail in areas over which unquestionably it has control. Those areas include the reliability of signalling systems and better management of planned shutdowns to limit overruns having an impact on the next day’s passenger services. Performance is highly variable across the network. Far more needs to be done to ensure that good practice is learnt from by all Network Rail regions.
There is real scope to improve performance by reforming the artificial barrier between track and train—one legacy of the botched privatisation of the railways. However, there remains real confusion about where the Government are heading on that. Originally, Ministers proposed handing over infrastructure to the private sector, raising questions about whether they had truly learnt the lessons of the Hatfield crash. Will the Minister make it clear whether they have abandoned those plans? In the absence of the much-delayed Command Paper, the confusion drags on, so will the Minister tell us when we can expect to see that Command Paper?
We also have concerns about something that has so far not been brought to the House but on which newspapers have been briefed, which is the Minister’s new idea about creating single management companies out of Network Rail and train operating companies, starting with a potential partnership with South West Trains. The Minister needs to say how a level playing field will be ensured when such franchises come up for renewal. How will other train operators, both passenger and freight, that use that part of the network fit into the alliance? How does the balance between a for-profit train operator and the not-for-profit Network Rail work in that context?
Hon. Members are right to focus on the need to improve efficiency. As part of that, we need to make procuring and building improvements more efficient without compromising safety. I have spoken to train operating companies, and a number of them have expressed concerns that having to use Network Rail to procure improvements to the non-safety-critical parts of the railway system, such as station buildings and car parks, significantly pushes up the costs of and delivery timeframes for those improvements. Will the Minister expand in his winding-up speech on plans either to allow TOCs to procure such works independently, or to ensure that Network Rail improves its processes?
A number of hon. Members raised, quite rightly, the issue of investment in various parts of the rail network. However, the way in which we currently manage investment in the railway system and, indeed, across the transport network needs to change. We need longer-term thinking that goes beyond artificial five-year horizons. We have a reasonable idea of where the pinchpoints in the system will be in decades to come, the capacity challenges and the emerging markets for new or faster services. We have had, for example, welcome albeit piecemeal announcements of funding for electrification. So far, that applies mainly to schemes developed by the previous Government. However, the five-year horizon of planning means that the Government are hindered from creating greater certainty about a rolling programme of electrification, which, at its best, could guard against the resources and skills employed by schemes such as the Great Western and north-west wiring schemes being lost at the end of those programmes rather than being moved to the next area, such as the midland main line or the Great Western route through to Swansea.
Labour is not calling for extra spending on rail in this comprehensive spending review period, but we do want the five-yearly assessment of what is affordable to be part of a longer plan for what is desirable and likely, so that industry can plan and British manufacturing can have the best chance of winning contracts.
Kelvin Hopkins
My hon. Friend is rightly emphasising costs, but a lot of the costs have to do with the method of contracting and sub-contracting that has been in use since privatisation. The contrast with British Rail is extreme, but there is also the contrast with costs abroad—other railway systems on the continent of Europe. Is that not something fundamental that we have to look at to bring those costs down, not just marginal changes to improve efficiency a bit, because we are talking about a multiple of costs?
John Woodcock
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. He is right to say that we need to look across the board at all options for improving efficiency. Avoiding inefficient procurement decisions, without returning to the days of the railway system that existed before the botched changes were made, which was not in itself operating efficiently, is the challenge and would be the challenge for any Government seeking to produce real, lasting and effective reform.
The deficit of accountability and transparency has rightly dominated speeches today. They have been powerful and well directed, but before I say more about where we share concerns in that respect, it is important to stress how far we have come since the days of Hatfield. Network Rail’s unusual structure was forged in response to the failure of its predecessor, Railtrack. The Labour Government were right to take action to bring the management of our rail infrastructure back under control, but the simple fact that we are in a relatively better place today does not mean that we can or should ignore the problems and shortcomings that beset the organisation a decade on.
The unusual nature of Network Rail has created a deficit of accountability. It does not have shareholders and does not respond directly to elected politicians, as has been demonstrated today. Most importantly, it is not properly responsive to the passengers who use the railway system. That can leave it unable properly to serve businesses, passengers and communities alike, and allow inefficient practices to continue. It has given rise to the alarming allegations that hon. Members have aired today and on which I hope the Minister will comment in his winding-up speech. [Interruption.] He still has 20 minutes.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)
My hon. Friend the Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) has to speak again.
John Woodcock
I will be brief. We want a railway that provides value for money for and is accountable to the taxpayer and the travelling public, a railway where passengers and freight customers can rely on the timetables and a railway that can plan strategically for the long term. That is why we are listening, as part of our policy review, to a wide range of ideas for improving the accountability of Network Rail, such as the Co-operative party’s proposals for mutualisation of the company. I therefore hope that the Minister will tell us where his plans to review the ownership and accountability structures of Network Rail to make it better able to serve the public have got to and whether they will include improvements to transparency.
Finally, I come to the issue of bonuses. Network Rail’s accountability has been brought into focus today by the news that Network Rail’s senior management will next week seek to award themselves a new bonus and incentive scheme. We understand that that will include an annual bonus of 60% of salary and, in addition, a five-year reward scheme worth up to 500% of salary. The public will be staggered by such proposals. Network Rail is currently in breach of its licence. It must recognise that times have changed and that bonuses on top of salaries need to be for exceptional performance and not the rule.
There is a responsibility for Ministers here, too. Network Rail’s articles of association make it plain that the Secretary of State has a clear remit over pay and bonuses. She has a right to attend the remuneration committee and the board meeting that decides these schemes, or to appoint a special member to represent her. Despite the coalition’s pledge to make Network Rail more accountable, the Secretary of State has failed to take up that right. She still has the opportunity to do so. The Minister will be keen to know that Downing street seems to take a relaxed view on this matter judging by the lobby briefing this afternoon. The Prime Minister’s official spokesman agreed that there was a vote, but said that the decision rested with the Secretary of State. In his winding up, will the Minister say if his boss or he will attend the board meeting on 10 February to make it clear that such a package is unacceptable? Warm words about accountability are not enough—
John Woodcock
The hon. Gentleman is quite right to raise his point of order, but I am in my last paragraph.
The Government need to get a grip on the organisation and its future, and they must start with this unacceptable bonus culture.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)
I shall have to give a high-speed reply to get through the various points that have been raised by Members this afternoon. It has been a very good debate, and I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans (Mrs Main) for introducing it.
The coalition Government are delivering the biggest and most ambitious rail upgrade programme since the Victorian era. I would go so far as to say, without hyperbole, that this is the most pro-rail Government that we have had for decades. Despite pressure on budgets, we have made a strategic choice to increase capital investment in those parts of the infrastructure that best deliver sustained and sustainable economic growth, including rail. That is why £18 billion was allocated in the 2010 spending review to deliver an ambitious programme of investment in rail infrastructure and rolling stock.
Our problem now is success: there are more people on the railway now than at any time since 1929, with a network about half the size. My hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley) is absolutely right; this is all about capacity, which is why we must get on with High Speed 2. We will try to deliver it as soon as we possibly can, and if we can, we will bring it forward, but we will not over-promise on what we can do on that or on anything else.
Many projects are going ahead, including Thameslink and Crossrail. I will not bother listing them all. Suffice it to say that we have a progressive programme of electrification that involves not simply one or two schemes. We want progressively to electrify the entire network and have already announced schemes that were not envisaged by the previous Government.
As Sir Roy McNulty found in his independent analysis of the value for money of the industry, our railway is the most expensive to run in Europe. It is up to 40% more expensive than some on the continent. Taxpayers and fare payers have shared the burden of inefficiency through some of the highest fares in Europe and some of the highest public subsidies, but this high-cost status quo is no longer an option. It is bad for passengers and bad for taxpayers, and we intend to deal with it.
Alongside our commitment to modernise and improve the network comes an equally crucial commitment to drive down costs and improve the efficiency of the railway, which was the third choice to which my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South referred in his contribution. In large part, that involves addressing the concerns that my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans and others have raised about Network Rail’s accountability and performance.
Sir Roy concluded that efficiency savings of up to £1 billion a year could be achieved by 2018, without radically restructuring the industry, cutting services or compromising quality or safety. However, that will require all parts of the industry to focus attention on driving out waste and driving up efficiency. If they do that, we can have the long-term growth future for the railway that I for one want to see. We also want to end the era of above-inflation fare rises and the RPI plus 1% formula that was introduced and happened year on year under the previous Government.
Hon. Members have asked about the Command Paper. It will be published shortly—I think that “shortly” is an official word in civil service speak—and will build on the findings made by Sir Roy and set out a blueprint for rail reform. Developing the role of Network Rail will be at the heart of the Command Paper. Although Network Rail is not perfect, it is not Railtrack, and Sir David Higgins is not Iain Coucher, so I hope that hon. Members can take some comfort from that.
The railway needs an infrastructure operator that is responsive, accountable and able to deliver the best possible results for operators, fare payers and the wider population who fund it through the public purse. Equally, Network Rail must be better incentivised. Reform of Network Rail’s structures and governance is therefore a key part of the Government’s rail agenda. Let me give this absolute assurance to the hon. Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell): we are determined that no changes should be made that would jeopardise the impressive improvements in safety and punctuality made by Network Rail and the rail industry in recent years.
We know about the tragedy of Grayrigg in February 2007. I am not being complacent when I say that that was the last tragic event in which a passenger died. It is worth pointing out that there were four deaths at level crossings in 2010-11. That is four too many, but it is the fewest such deaths that we have had for a decade. Efficiency does not mean compromising safety.
John McDonnell
On Grayrigg, the ORR said:
“the company’s failure to provide and implement suitable and sufficient standards, procedures, guidance, training, tools and resources for the inspection and maintenance of fixed stretcher bar points”
was a key issue that caused that death. The same depot responsible for that stretch of line has just had a 15% cut in its budget.
Norman Baker
The fact that efficiency savings or reductions in numbers take place does not necessarily mean that safety is affected. Obviously, the hon. Gentleman’s point has been well made, and I will take it back with me. Network Rail today is a significantly improved body from what it was in February 2007. None the less, we share the Office of Rail Regulation’s concerns about certain aspects of the company’s recent performance, such as punctuality over the past 12 months, some weaknesses in safety culture and poor implementation of integrated train planning under certain conditions.
The Government look to the Office of Rail Regulation to hold Network Rail to account and to continue to drive improved value for money from the company. As part of that process, the ORR has set Network Rail a requirement to make efficiency savings of 21% in its 2009 baseline by 2014. It will continue to produce annual reports benchmarking Network Rail’s efficiency against its international peers.
The Office of Rail Regulation’s latest annual report states that Network Rail has made progress against its efficiency targets, but that it has more work to do to justify all of its claimed savings. When Network Rail delivers on its current commitments, the ORR expects it to have closed around two-thirds of this efficiency gap by 2014 and the rest by 2019.
A key part of the McNulty review is to see much closer working and alignment of incentives between Network Rail and the train operators. A number of Members raised that, and it is something that the Government are focused on and it will feature in the Command Paper.
We welcome Network Rail’s regional devolution initiative to focus its business down to the route level and to work closely with train operators. David Higgins is taking forward work on structural reform to form closer alliances with the train operators. Moves towards asset management concessions and improved supplier engagement are vital.
We recognise concerns that Network Rail’s governance has not, so far, provided adequate mechanisms for holding the company’s board to account. That has been particularly apparent in respect of bonuses. The Secretary of State for Transport has been rightly firm on that matter, as indeed has No.10, despite what we have heard this afternoon. We expect bonuses to be dealt with in a responsible and a sensible manner by Network Rail, as we do by others. However, the Government’s powers, which we inherited from the previous Administration, to deal with those bonuses are extremely limited. Let me remind the hon. Member for Barrow and Furness (John Woodcock) that in 2009-10, under the previous Government, Iain Coucher received a bonus of £348,184, and the top seven directors together clocked up £1,347,000.
John Woodcock
The Minister will be aware that the previous chief executive waived his bonus in the 2008-09 period when he was asked to do so by the then Secretary of State, Lord Adonis. When the former Secretary of State for Transport, the now Secretary of State for Defence, raised the issue of those bonuses to Iain Coucher, he was completely ignored.
Norman Baker
The fact of the matter is that we have not inherited powers to deal with those bonuses. This is the Network Rail structure that we inherited, and we are now trying to sort it out.
Let me deal with Network Rail’s performance, which comes within my portfolio. It is not as good as it should have been, and passengers are rightly unhappy when their train is delayed or cancelled, especially when that happens regularly. To be fair to Network Rail, we must put that performance in context. In 1997-98, the annual public performance measure was 89.3%. After the accident at Hatfield in 2000, it fell to 74.2%. Since then, it has risen progressively, and punctuality today stands at 91.7%. I am not saying that that is good enough, but it is not the catastrophic case that is sometimes presented. It is certainly not true that, as the Labour party spokesman said, performance has been declining at an alarming rate. It has not; it has been improving. It has not met the targets, but it has been on an upward trend.
The current high level output specification for the railways specifies a further improvement to 92.6% during the period to 2014, and that is what the Department is focused on, as is the ORR. There is still a lot to do. I am concerned that performance over the last year has been iffy for various reasons, including the previous two exceptionally severe winters and an increase in the number of external events, such as cable theft. What is happening about cable theft is not the full range of the Government’s response, and it is inaccurate to present it in that way. We are simply using existing legislation to do what we can. Further measures will emerge as and when we can take them. In addition to cable theft, other issues have affected Network Rail’s performance that I am told were within its control.
Remedial plans have been put in place to enable improvements by the end of the current year, and plans are being developed for the remaining two years of the current rail control period. I am happy to tell my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans that a great deal of work has gone into much better winter resilience, including third-rail heating to prevent the sort of problems that occurred in previous winters, to which she rightly referred. I hope that she will be reassured by the fact that I meet Network Rail and the train companies monthly to examine performance with a specific analysis to ensure that they are keeping up to scratch with their plans.
As has been said, the ORR has published enforcement orders requiring Network Rail to take further steps to improve performance, particularly for long-distance passenger services and freight services. Hon. Members will know of the letter written by the ORR to Network Rail—it is fair to say that the train companies also have responsibility to do their best to ensure that punctuality and performance are maintained—and I simultaneously wrote to the train companies about their responsibilities to ensure that they are doing what they can to maintain performance at their end.
My hon. Friend the Member for St Albans referred to the National Audit Office. Network Rail is officially a private sector company. That classification is determined not by the Government, but by the independent Office for National Statistics, and that is what it has decided. I am not aware of any precedent for the National Audit Office having jurisdiction over private sector companies.
Under the terms of the Railways Act 1993, as subsequently amended, Network Rail is subject to scrutiny and regulation by the ORR, which has access to information that it needs from Network Rail, properly to assess the company’s performance and efficiency. The ORR is part of the public sector, so it is subject to National Audit Office scrutiny. The National Audit Office and the Public Accounts Committee have recently undertaken audits of the Office of Rail Regulation, taken evidence from Network Rail and others and produced reports on the regulator’s effectiveness.
We note and endorse the conclusions that the ORR must take steps to ensure that it has the capability that it needs properly to hold Network Rail to account and to drive it to close the efficiency gap with leading European comparators. I have sought assurances from the ORR that it will take such steps. Hon. Members have referred to the consultation that is taking place on the ORR’s powers. Any plans to expand the ORR’s role take account of its performance to date and its future capability, as well as comments that are received as part of the consultation process.
As a private sector company, Network Rail is not subject to the Freedom of Information Act, nor could it be without primary legislation. However, Network Rail has promised that it is in the process of developing a voluntary information rights code, which will mirror many of the provisions in the Freedom of Information Act. We welcome that initiative and believe that, if properly implemented, it will provide an alternative to legislation. We expect the company to introduce the code alongside a broader package of Government reforms later this year.
My colleagues and I in the Department for Transport, including the Minister of State, Department for Transport, my right hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet (Mrs Villiers)—I am grateful for the comments about her accident, and I am happy to say that she is recovering well—will keep the matter under close scrutiny.
Hon. Members raised a number of specific points, but I must give my hon. Friend the Member for St Albans time to respond properly. If there are any points that I have not dealt with, I will write to the relevant hon. Members.
Mrs Main
I thank the Minister for his rather rushed response. I accept that he was under pressure of time. I look forward to seeing his written response to any other points that were raised. This has been a valuable and conciliatory debate. As my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South (Mr Binley) said, it is not about a blame game; it is about ensuring that we have the railway service that our constituents deserve and that the country deserves for its prosperity and future.
We have the weird scenario of a private company supposedly supported by taxpayer’s money. I hope that we will end up with something better in future, but I am not sure what the eventual and, we hope, better child will be following privatisation, then full access to public funds and now the chimera that I described earlier. My hon. Friend the Member for Reading East (Mr Wilson) was very defensive about Network Rail and praised it, but he started his speech by saying that 60.4% of delay attributions were its direct responsibility. He was very kind to Network Rail, but he recognised that it has some things to answer for.
My hon. Friend the Member for Northampton South made a powerful speech. I understand his passion for HS2, but he made a powerful business case for things to be much better than they are. I think that all hon. Members agree with that.
I thank my hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk Coastal (Dr Coffey) for her incisive view, particularly of level crossings. My mind was boggling that someone might have to walk through them and shut the doors after them.
Hon. Members today have raised serious concerns about Network Rail. I was concerned when the Minister said that the Office of Rail Regulation has been expected to do more, given that the Public Accounts Committee said in 2011 that it doubted whether the regulator could exert sufficient pressure on Network Rail’s performance. The Minister is optimistic and I am sure that he will be sitting on its back and beating it up when necessary, but the public’s perception is that it is a toothless tiger. I suggest that he does not give it too long to get its house in order. If it is not delivering, something else must be put in its place quickly. We cannot expect Network Rail to carry on as it is.
It was apt that bonuses were referred to; they were also referred to in the House, and I gather that there is a statement on them today. It may not be possible to prevent the directors of Network Rail from receiving bonuses, but they could stand shoulder to shoulder and decline them. I suggest that, if they are arguing vociferously for a new structure that awards bonuses of 500% of their salaries, they think again after this debate and the Prime Minister’s statement, which I cannot anticipate, but I know the views of many colleagues in the House and those who supported the early-day motion. I also know that the public are disgusted by reward for failure. If Network Rail turns itself around within a short period, the directors could expect to apply for bonuses, but now is not the time, and they should stand shoulder to shoulder with the travelling public and decline bonuses. Although they can have them, they should say that they do not want them.
This debate has been valuable. I look forward to the White Paper, and I hope that we will see a way forward for our rail services in the future.
Question put and agreed to.
Written Ministerial Statements
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Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 (Schedule 7)
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The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr Mark Hoban)
Paragraph 38 of Schedule 7 to the Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 requires the Treasury to report to Parliament after each calendar year in which a direction under the schedule is at any time in force. This report provides details of the Treasury’s exercise of their functions under schedule 7 during the calendar year 2011.
The Schedule 7 powers
Schedule 7 provides HM Treasury with powers to implement a graduated range of financial restrictions in response to certain risks to the UK’s national interests. The risks it addresses are those posed by money laundering, terrorist financing and the proliferation of chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear weapons.
Direction given under the powers in Schedule 7
The Financial Restrictions (Iran) Order 2011 (“the Order”) came into force on 21 November 2011. The Order contains a direction by the Treasury requiring all UK financial and credit institutions to cease business relationships and transactions with all banks incorporated in Iran, including all subsidiaries and branches of such banks, wherever located, and the Central Bank of Iran.
The direction was issued on the basis that activity in Iran that facilitates the development or production of nuclear weapons poses a significant risk to the national interests of the UK. Iranian banks play a crucial role in providing financial services to individuals and entities within Iran’s nuclear and ballistic missile programmes. Any Iranian bank is exposed to the risk of being used by proliferators in Iran’s nuclear and ballistic missile programmes.
The Order was approved by the House of Lords on 12 December 2011 and by the House of Commons on 13 December 2011.
Licensing
Under paragraph 17 of schedule 7, the Treasury can exempt acts specified in a licence from the requirements of a direction requiring the cessation or limiting of transactions or business relationships between UK and Iranian banks.
In operating the licensing regime in respect of the Order, the Treasury’s aim is to minimise the impact of the restrictions upon third parties, without compromising the objective of the direction.
The Treasury issued six general licences on 21 November 2011:
General Licence 1 permits existing and new transactions involving transfers of under €40,000 for humanitarian purposes;
General Licence 2 allows personal remittances under €40,000;
General Licence 3 permits existing or new transactions related to the provision of insurance permitted by EU Regulation 961/2010;
General Licence 4 allows UK banks to continue to hold accounts for asset-frozen Iranian banks and credit payment to those accounts in accordance with EU Regulation 961/2010;
General Licence 5 allows UK banks to continue to hold accounts of non-frozen Iranian banks, although they cannot process any transactions on these accounts; and
General Licence 6 provided a seven-day grace period to allow payments in progress under existing contracts to be completed.
Applications that fall outside the scope of the six general licences are assessed on a case-by-case basis. In making the decision to issue a licence, the Treasury upholds the objective of the restriction while seeking to minimise the impact on third parties.
Between 21 November 2011 and 31 December 2011, four licences were granted and none refused:
Two were granted to facilitate banks exiting their relationships with Iranian banks in accordance with the restrictions.
Two more were issued to enable payments due under contracts agreed before the restrictions came into force to be made:
one allowed a UK business to receive payment owed under an existing contract for the delivery of goods; and
the other enabled an existing loan to be repaid.
British Embassy (Liberia)
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The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)
In March 1991, at the outbreak of over a decade of civil war, Britain closed its embassy in Liberia. In 2003, a UK-based political officer began work again in Monrovia, reporting to and supervised by our High Commissioner in Sierra Leone. Today, I am pleased to announce the reopening of our embassy in Liberia.
This follows the successful presidential elections at the end of last year, the inauguration of President Ellen Johnson Sirleaf in January, and my meeting with her in June 2011.
Reopening a British embassy in Liberia strengthens our voice at a critical time and enables us to support the process of peace-building and national reconciliation in this important African country. Since the closure of our embassy in 1991, our influence in Liberia has been limited. A fully accredited ambassador will be able to work closely with President Johnson Sirleaf’s Government as they work to push forward her programme of reform and national reconciliation.
The resources of a full embassy will enable us to provide more systematic and effective support to British trade and investment. Liberia’s economy is growing at over 6% per annum. The oil, mining and agriculture sectors are all set to expand rapidly over the next few years.
This decision sends a strong signal of British diplomatic re-engagement with Liberia and the wider region. It follows the upgrading of our political office in Côte d'Ivoire to the status of a full embassy.
As I said in Parliament on 11 May 2011, there will be no strategic shrinkage of Britain’s diplomatic influence overseas. I remain committed to extending the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s global reach and building up British diplomatic influence in key regions of the world. Reopening the embassy in Liberia is part of that commitment.
The reopening of the embassy will incur a marginal cost over and above the cost for a political office. This would be around £35,000 in the first year and £15,000 per annum after that. A limited consular service will be offered in Liberia. Our High Commission in Ghana will continue to provide a visa service as well as more substantive consular support when necessary. A fully accredited resident ambassador will take up residence in Liberia in autumn 2012.
European Union Act 2011 (Section 5)
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The Minister for Europe (Mr David Lidington)
A parliamentary statement has been laid before the House today, 2 February. This has been made pursuant to section 5 of the European Union Act 2011 as to whether the treaty concerning the accession of the Republic of Croatia to the European Union falls within section 4 of the EU Act.
Copies of the parliamentary statement are available from the Vote Office and Printed Paper Office. Copies of the treaty have been deposited in the Library of the House.
Undercover Policing
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of the Constabulary (HMIC) has today published its review into undercover policing entitled “A review of national police units which provide intelligence on criminality associated with protest”.
The review was initiated by HMIC following revelations about the activities of Mark Kennedy, a police officer working undercover for the then National Public Order Intelligence Unit (NPOIU), that led to the collapse of the trial of six people accused of planning to shut down a large power station in Nottinghamshire.
The report acknowledges that intelligence provided by undercover officers of the NPOIU enabled the police to prevent acts of the most serious violent nature.
The report examines the systems used by NPOIU to authorise and control the development of intelligence and the oversight of the activities of individual undercover officers. The report found that NPOIU undercover operations were not as well controlled as those of other units that deploy undercover officers such as the Serious Organised Crime Agency, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs, the Security Service and the FBI. This was especially so in the case of Mark Kennedy.
The report makes four recommendations to improve the controls and effectiveness of undercover policing of criminality associated with protest. The recommendations are as follows:
Recommendation 1
The arrangements for authorising those police undercover operations that present the most significant risks of intrusion within domestic extremism and public order policing should be improved as follows:
(a) ACPO should give serious consideration to establishing a system of prior approval for pre-planned, long-term intelligence development operations subject to the agreement of the OSC.
(b) The level of authorisation for long-term deployments of undercover police officers should be aligned with other highly intrusive tactics such as Property Interference, as defined by section 93 of the Police Act 1997, (subject to the legal requirements and the agreement of the OSC).
In the interim:
(c) Either a collaborative agreement should be entered into between police forces and MPS that allows one authorising officer within NDEU to own undercover operations from start to finish, or these operations should be managed in police forces by authorising officers that are:
a. Properly trained and accredited. In particular this training should cover the concepts of necessity, intrusion, proportionality, disclosure and risk management.
b. Fully briefed with all the relevant information.
In making these changes, consideration will need to be given to ensuring the police have some flexibility to deploy covert resources at short notice where operationally necessary, and to minimising potential impacts on covert human intelligence (CHIS) work and police collaboration with partners.
HMIC makes a number of further recommendations to improve the NPOIU’s management of the risk associated with intrusion (see recommendations 3 and 4 below).
Recommendation 2
In the absence of a tighter definition, ACPO and the Home Office should agree a definition of domestic extremism that reflects the severity of crimes that might warrant this title, and that includes serious disruption to the life of the community arising from criminal activity. This definition should give sufficient clarity to inform judgments relating to the appropriate use of covert techniques, while continuing to enable intelligence development work by police even where there is no imminent prospect of a prosecution. This should be included in the updated ACPO 2003 guidance.
Recommendation 3
The positioning of both public order intelligence and domestic extremism intelligence within the NDEU needs to be reconsidered. There will need to be an incremental transfer to any newly created hub for public order intelligence.
Recommendation 4
In recognition that undercover operations aimed at developing intelligence around serious criminality associated with domestic extremism and public order are inherently more risky, additional controls should be implemented as follows:
(a) MPS and ACPO leads should adopt a practical framework for reviewing proposed operations or their continuation.
(b) Authorising officers should conduct a thorough review of all undercover operations that last longer than six months. This review will be in addition to an independent review by the Surveillance Commissioners.
(c) Subject to reconsideration of the public order component (see recommendation no.3), domestic extremism operations should continue to be managed within the existing regional counter-terrorism unit structure, and there should be oversight by an operational steering group representing a range of interests and agencies. External governance could be provided using arrangements similar to those employed by the counter-terrorism network.
(d) The rationale for recording public order intelligence material on NDEU’s database should to be sufficient to provide assurance that its continued retention is necessary and justified given the level of intrusion into people’s privacy.
(e) Exit plans should be an addendum to the risk assessment and should be reviewed by the authorising officer, and they should be considered by appropriately trained police cover officers and police-employed psychologists collectively, alongside risks to the operational strategy and welfare of undercover officers.
(f) In order for safeguards to operate effectively consideration should be given to undercover officers waiving their right to confidentiality allowing the psychologist to brief managers of any concerns.
(g) The 2003 ACPO guidance needs urgent revision taking account of the findings of this and other reviews.
With the police, the Government will consider carefully the recommendations to ensure enhanced control of these undercover police officers in the future. Indeed, steps have already been taken to address some of the concerns. For example, the Metropolitan Police Service runs the National Domestic Extremism Unit (which now carries out the functions of NPOIU) on behalf of the police forces in England and Wales. This new arrangement came into effect in early 2011 and simplifies the scrutiny of the NDEU as it will be subject to the Metropolitan Police Service governance and accountability arrangements.
I am grateful to Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary for his review. A copy of this report will be placed in Library of the House.
Justice and Home Affairs Post-Council Statement
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The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)
Attending on behalf of the United Kingdom were my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Justice, the Scottish Minister for Community Safety and Legal Affairs Roseanna Cunningham MSP and myself. The following issues were discussed at the Council:
The first plenary session focused on solidarity in immigration and asylum, considering the need for Council conclusions on a common framework for solidarity; the trigger for solidarity measures; whether the agencies should have a strengthened role; whether there should be intra-EU relocation of refugees; and whether a framework should include Schengen and third-country co-operation. The UN Refugee Agency (UNHCR) said that the starting point for all should be to meet existing obligations, alongside burden-sharing. Within the EU joint asylum processing and voluntary relocation would be welcome, while there was a need for external action to strengthen resettlement and develop regional protection pilots. There was also a need to ensure that improved management of migration at the borders was sensitive to the needs of refugees and asylum seekers.
The Commission said that assistance could be provided within the framework of the Common European Asylum System (CEAS) but solidarity was also about keeping one’s own house in order. Commissioner Malmström supported a soft-law framework plus the early warning system, but any mechanism should be on the request of the member state with consideration by the European Asylum Support Office (EASO) and the Commission. She noted that the EU agencies could only work within their competence and co-ordination could only be done by the Commission. She also urged support for the voluntary relocation scheme and noted there was a link between Schengen and solidarity, against which evaluation of the former needed to be strengthened. The chair of the European Parliament (EP) Civil Liberties Committee emphasised the need to keep international protection distinguished from migration. They had consistently made the case for internal relocation and wanted the European Parliament to be informed at the earliest stage of early warning systems.
Many member states intervened to emphasise that solidarity depended on trust and should not detract from responsibility, which included investing in appropriate systems to manage changes in migration flows. The UK agreed that the need to have a functioning domestic system was the basic building block, without which real solidarity was impossible. The UK also expressed caution over EASO’s role being further developed at this stage and would not support an extension of relocation beyond the Malta pilot project, at least before it was evaluated. The UK said that relocation simply moved the problem around Europe rather than addressing the underlying problems. The UK also welcomed the presence of Turkey at the Council, with whom it supported strengthened co-operation. The majority of member states’ interventions supported the creation of a framework for solidarity in the form of Council conclusions and supported the inclusion of co-operation with third countries and consideration of Schengen within the proposed framework.
The presidency concluded that solidarity was dependent on trust and that a framework would be useful as a supplement to an early warning system. There was support for including components related to Schengen and co-operation with third countries and there was a place for strengthening the agencies. They noted there was not support for relocation. They committed to preparing draft conclusions in March which they hoped would unlock negotiations on the Dublin regulation. The task would then be to turn them into results by June. They noted it was closely linked to better political management of Schengen which would go to the March JHA Council.
In the light of the review of the family reunification directive, over lunch Ministers discussed the challenges facing them with respect to family reunification.
The next plenary session focused on the financing of passenger name records (PNR) under the proposed directive on the collection and sharing of PNR between member states. The presidency noted that, while the starting point for the implementation of EU policies was that member states took the cost of implementation, the EU could sometimes meet set-up costs. The Commission said they were willing to co-finance set-up costs in this case but could not finance running costs or all set-up costs. They had allocated €50 million (£41.76 million) for 2012 and fully intended to finance it in the future, via the new Internal Security Fund, currently under negotiation. The UK reiterated the importance of an EU PNR system for fighting terrorism and organised crime. Given its benefits the UK hoped the finance issue would be resolved and offered its own experience to assist others in helping to reduce their costs.
The majority of member states intervened to support funding from the EU financial instruments, with most supporting an explicit reference in the text of the new Internal Security Fund instrument. The European Parliament said that the issue for it was not cost, but noted that cost could affect them. The European Parliament believed that excluding EU internal flights from the scope of the directive would be cheaper. The presidency concluded there was general agreement to use the Internal Security Fund for funding for PNR, but member states needed reassurance that substantial financial support would be available. Discussions on the directive and Internal Security Fund will continue at expert level.
The Justice day commenced with a discussion on the Brussels I regulation, where the presidency invited delegations to discuss the proposed rules of jurisdiction in cases involving defendants in non-EU member states. The UK did not see any evidence of practical problems with the current arrangements, whereby national rules applied to such cases. Most other member states thought there was no need to extend the rules of jurisdiction in Brussels I to such cases. The presidency concluded that further work should be taken forward on basis of maintenance of the status quo.
This was followed by a discussion on criminal sanctions in the context of the current proposal for a directive on insider dealing and market manipulation. Ministers were asked to consider whether a provision for minimum levels of maximum penalties should be included in the proposed directive, and whether there should, as a rule, be provision for minimum-maximum levels of sanctions in future criminal law directives. The Commission stated that there must be respect for subsidiarity and proportionality and that there was no need for such a rule in the directive. The UK supported the Commission’s approach and felt that the first priority was for some criminal provision to be in place so that it was clear that the conduct would be treated as a serious offence. The UK also stressed the importance of enforcement and that having the options of both a criminal and civil approach would aid prosecutors, bearing in mind that criminal offences were harder to prove. The presidency concluded that the majority of states considered that having no specific minimum-maximum sanctions would be the right approach and that the question of sanctions in future instruments should be considered on a case by case basis.
During the ministerial lunch there was a discussion on the transfer of sentenced persons and social rehabilitation. Member states reviewed implementation so far of the framework decision on transfer of sentenced persons. Most states are in the process of implementation. There was widespread agreement that additional legislative measures to facilitate implementation were unnecessary, but that practical measures to activate the process must be addressed. The UK supports the framework decision so that foreign national offenders are able to serve their sentences in their own country to facilitate their eventual reintegration into the community in which they will live.
House of Lords
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Algeria
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Lord Risby
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to develop business and political links with Algeria.
The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, Algeria is an important partner. The visit by my right honourable friend the Foreign and Commonwealth Secretary in October and the annual political dialogue between the Under-Secretary of State, Mr Burt, and his counterpart, Mr Messahel, have strengthened our links. I visited in November to discuss trade, energy and foreign policy, and the visit in January by my noble friend Lord Marland focused on our commercial and energy relationships. UK exports to Algeria were up 67 per cent last year. British businesses are the largest in Algeria’s hydrocarbon sector, and we are actively pursuing opportunities in education, pharmaceuticals and finance. Algeria has also shown a strong interest in closer links with the Commonwealth.
Lord Risby
My Lords, there can be few countries that have suffered more violence and destruction in the past than Algeria, but more latterly there has been stability in a very turbulent region. Will the Minister welcome the moves towards political reform that are now under way, culminating in elections later this year and a substantial number of women parliamentarians? Given this and the enormous levels of natural gas that exist in the country, does my noble friend agree that, with the extraordinary and exceptional friendship currently being shown to us by the Algerians, we should readily react to this in view of the important strategic, political and commercial opportunities that arise?
Lord Howell of Guildford
Yes, we fully recognise the points that my noble friend has rightly made. I congratulate him on the very successful visit that he and some colleagues recently made to Algeria. This is a country that has emerged from a very dark period. It has some way to go in some crucial areas but it is, in resource terms, immensely rich. It has a determination to move back into the comity of nations in an effective way and I believe that we should work closely with it. I think that the frequent visits that Ministers from my department have paid reflect that reality.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
My Lords, the trade and energy links are indeed important but so, too, are human rights. The noble Lord must be aware of a growing tide of Islamism creeping over Algeria. It is shown at two levels: one is in the closure of many places of entertainment and the second, more importantly, is in the closure of places of worship. I know that Alistair Burt at the Foreign Office and Commissioner Füle have made representations. Has there been any response to the British and EU representations in respect of human rights?
Lord Howell of Guildford
There has. The noble Lord is right to raise questions of human rights, which are obviously our central concern. So far as concerns jihadism and more extreme versions of Islamism, while in the south of Algeria and to the south of Algeria there are continuing difficulties which need to be watched and addressed very carefully, in the north the situation is much better controlled. The general tendency which was feared a decade or so ago—of extreme jihadism taking over—has been checked and resisted. In fact, I think that Algeria is moving on from that phase.
As to the question of religious discrimination, there has been a constant exchange, and the noble Lord mentioned Mr Burt’s dialogue with Ministers. The laws that control where churches or other religious institutions can be built apply to all faiths—this is not just discrimination against Christians. We have discussed this very carefully with Ministers in Algiers. They have assured us that the laws are applied in a relatively light-handed way and that discrimination is not against one faith. It governs all building, including of mosques. Therefore, it is a matter that we are watching. I cannot promise that immediate results have been achieved but we are working at it.
Lord Chidgey
Is my noble friend aware that, according to the UKTI report, Doing Business in Algeria, for every £1 worth of goods that we export to Algeria, Algeria exports £2 worth of goods to us? That is resulting in a significant trade deficit, which, according to the current facts, is set to double every two years? According to UKTI, this is a mutually beneficial arrangement. Does this not smack somewhat of complacency as far as our exports are concerned?
Lord Howell of Guildford
No, I do not think it does because the big export from Algeria to us is liquid natural gas. Algeria is a major exporter to Europe of LNG. It is developing that capacity vigorously. There are further huge areas to be licensed, explored and developed in Algeria and we hope that British firms will have a major involvement in that as the licensing system unfolds and improves. I do not think that my noble friend’s figures fully reflect the fact that I have just pointed out to him, that for our daily energy and for keeping the lights on we need good supplies of liquid natural gas as well as the natural gas that we get from the North Sea, Norway and other places.
Lord West of Spithead
My Lords, the Minister has clearly articulated the fact that AQ of the Maghreb are now concentrated in the south. Have we had success in convincing European nations that the paying of ransoms has been one of the reasons for AQIM increasing its power and that we really must not do that?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I hesitate to tick the box marked “success”, but this matter is certainly very much on our minds and it is being discussed. In fact, I think it is being discussed this week at the United Nations, among other places, and it has certainly been discussed with our European colleagues. The noble Lord is quite right to draw attention to this. The ransom is the Danegeld. It will never solve the problem but will make it worse. As a government, we are totally against any paying of ransom in all such circumstances.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, the noble Lord mentioned educational links in his first Answer. He will be aware of the restrictions on overseas students coming to the UK as a result of actions by the Government. Is he able to comment on the impact that that has had on students from Algeria coming to the UK as education is a very important export earner for this country?
Lord Howell of Guildford
Of course, we welcome bona fide students to our universities and a healthy student exchange. The matter was not raised with me during quite an extensive stay in Algeria a few months ago, but it is a matter that I shall look at again and check whether the Algerians have any particular problems to raise with us.
Credit Unions
(12 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Kennedy of Southwark
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what action they are taking to promote the accessibility of credit unions.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Lord Freud)
My Lords, the Government wish to see greater diversity in financial services, and credit unions have an important role to play. The recent credit union legislative reform order has opened up membership to different groups such as housing association tenants and employees of national companies working in credit union areas. A feasibility study has looked at how the Government could support credit unions. The study reported to Ministers in December and an announcement will be made in due course.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
Although progress is moving in the right direction, I think it is extremely sluggish. If I asked a question about nurses, I would expect a Health Minister to reply; if I asked about teachers, I would expect an Education Minister to reply. I ask a question about credit unions and three departments could reply in this House. I contend that that is not joined-up government. My question for the Minister is: who is the driver?
Lord Freud
My Lords, I am the driver. I commissioned a report on credit unions last year. The DWP is the paymaster for the credit union movement. We have spent £113 million in the past six years. We are determined to go on funding this really important element of financial inclusion and to create an industry that will be viable in the long term and will support the poorest in our society.
Lord Martin of Springburn
My Lords, what limit is there on individual credit union loans? Will the Minister say what figure the credit unions are restricted to? I am very keen that self-employed tradesmen and women who want to start off with a small quantity of tools and equipment are able to go to a credit union in their locality rather than a bank, because banks at the moment are not very helpful to self-employed people.
Lord Freud
My Lords, there are various restrictions on credit unions at the moment. I am not aware of an absolute limit on loans. Clearly, the unions need a financially viable business structure. They do not have one at the moment. A typical loan from a credit union is about £500. It costs the union more than £75 to make the loan and it earns less than £63, so getting a new mix of business is vital.
Lord Newby
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the next big step required to increase the volume of credit union activity is to make credit union accounts accessible via post office counters? Will he assure the House that this option is under active consideration as part of the wider review that he described?
Lord Freud
Yes, my Lords, that aspect of the review is under active consideration.
Lord Borrie
The Minister referred to the growing significance of credit unions, and of consumer credit provided by the unions. What proportion of outstanding consumer credit at the present time is owed to credit unions? What proportion of the totality of consumer credit do they cover?
Lord Freud
The proportion is disappointingly small; it is 2 per cent. That compares with a figure of 44 per cent in the United States and 75 per cent in Ireland. It is a very small industry here. Our ambition is to double its size in the next five to seven years. Nevertheless, we need to look at various other financial instruments, particularly as we introduce universal credit.
Lord Clarke of Hampstead
My Lords, I am sure that the House is delighted that the report that the Minister asked for is coming. Should not part of the report state that local authorities should be encouraged to help with the start-up costs of credit unions, in particular with the very high council taxes that are levied on premises? I speak with experience of a very successful credit union in St Albans of which I am a member. Start-up costs are very difficult and local authorities could play a good part in helping to create these unions.
Lord Freud
Yes, my Lords, credit unions are local organisations. It is very important that social units in the locality help them. Just as important as local authorities are social housing groups. There are already 20 such groups working with credit unions, which is very important.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
Does the Minister agree that the situation is acute because needy people must be kept out of the clutches of loan sharks? I appreciate that successive Governments have shown great good will in this matter. Will he study the situation in the Republic of Ireland, where, as he said, some 50 per cent of personal credit is represented by credit unions? In New Zealand and Canada the figure is between 20 and 22 per cent. Will he take those systems very much into account and do something that involves a substantial injection of public money into this investment?
Lord Freud
My Lords, we have made clear that we are prepared to support this industry, but we are determined to support it in such a way that it becomes viable in the long term. We are attacking illegal loans, which are coming down a bit. There are various supports for poorer people, such as payday loans, rent-to-buy and home credit. It is a very complicated picture, but we are determined to push this new factor as hard as we can.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, my noble friend said that the aim is to double from 2 per cent to 4 per cent in between five and seven years. Can we not do better than that? Can we not have a more ambitious aim?
Lord Freud
My Lords, it is very difficult to grow an industry from an organisational base that is not yet viable. We need to make sure that individual institutions are able to handle the growth that we want them to take on. That is not just about money; that is about trying to make the right changes to management and organisation. It is not an easy thing to do.
Alcohol
(12 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
To ask Her Majesty’s Government how they plan to reduce alcohol harm.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)
My Lords, we will set out the Government’s approach to tackling alcohol-related harm in the forthcoming alcohol strategy. It will address the full range of harm from alcohol, both health and social impacts, and will describe the respective future roles of central and local government, the third sector, other agencies and people.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
Today’s British Liver Trust report shows that 28 per cent of deaths in 16 to 24 year-olds and almost 9,000 deaths a year in this country are alcohol-related. Do the Government recognise that there is now a need for social strategies that look at issues such as minimum pricing and licensing controls of home delivery services that provide night-time party top-ups when parties have run out of alcohol and people are already drunk, as well as criminal justice controls so that breathalysers can be used compulsorily, given that 45 per cent of violent crime and 37 per cent of domestic violence are alcohol-related?
Earl Howe
My Lords, the Government fully recognise the adverse effects on society of alcohol misuse and the devastating consequences that it can bring to individuals. That is why we feel it is so important to issue the alcohol strategy that I mentioned in my initial Answer. I understand that there are no plans in government to widen the use of breathalysers, but we are clear that irresponsible sales of alcohol need to be controlled, and that area will be covered in the strategy. On the noble Baroness’s particular question on pricing, we recognise that the irresponsible sale of alcohol at a loss to gain wider trade can lead to binge drinking. That is clearly undesirable for all sorts of reasons. We are committed to ending the sale of heavily discounted alcohol, and that will send a message to retailers and, indeed, the public that we take the issue very seriously.
Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, may I ask the Minister whether the answers he has been giving fit in with the order that my noble friend Lord Strathclyde has on the Order Paper for later today?
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town
My Lords, has the Minister seen the letter today from the churches and charities to the Prime Minister asking that there should be a minimum price on alcohol? Will he agree with that recommendation and do that rather than rely on the industry in this case?
Earl Howe
My Lords, as I have already said, we recognise that the irresponsible sale of alcohol at a loss or heavy discount is undesirable. We know that price is important in this equation but we also know that it is not the only factor that affects demand for alcohol. We need to find ways to change people’s relationship and behaviours with alcohol. We do not believe that the only way to do this is by more rules and regulations but the issue of price will be addressed in the forthcoming alcohol strategy.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, perhaps we can hear from my noble friend Lord Taverne and then from the other Benches.
Lord Taverne
My Lords, the Sheffield University report to NICE in 2010 pointed out the extreme importance of price rises. It came to the conclusion that a 10 per cent price rise would, among other things, reduce hospital admissions by something like 50,000 a year, crimes by something like 96,000 and absenteeism from work by something like 500,000 per annum. Very similar huge social benefits would also come from introducing a minimum price. Does the Minister agree that price rises are probably the most important single weapon in dealing with this social matter?
Earl Howe
My noble friend makes a very good point, which is why the Government have taken action on tax. We will be raising alcohol duty by 2 per cent above inflation every year to 2014-15. We introduced a new additional duty on high-strength beers to address the consumption of cheap super-strength lagers and a reduced rate of duty on low-strength beers to encourage consumers to switch to those brands.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, there is time for both noble Lords. Perhaps we may start with the noble Lord, Lord Imbert.
Lord Imbert
In the light of the 60,000 alcohol-related calls answered by the London Ambulance Service alone and the 18,500 alcohol-related crimes of violence in London alone in one year, does that not mean that we should introduce a compulsory alcohol sobriety testing scheme which magistrates can use to sentence in order to reduce this awful number of offences?
Earl Howe
The noble Lord is right to point that out. Proposals of the kind he suggests should be considered. As I am sure he will recognise, there is no single solution to the complex challenge of alcohol misuse. We need to look at licensing, pricing, health promotion, the criminal justice system, the role of local authorities, early engagement by the NHS and labelling, and the list goes on. But I am very happy to feed in the noble Lord’s ideas to my department in the work that it is doing.
Baroness Massey of Darwen
My Lords, what impact does the Minister think rising unemployment may have on alcohol consumption? He has not mentioned unemployment, which is an important issue. I declare an interest as the chairman of the National Treatment Agency for Substance Misuse.
Earl Howe
My Lords, the evidence is that the population’s overall consumption of alcohol tends to fall if incomes are depressed. Particular groups in the population, including some who are unemployed, may consume more alcohol as a result of being unemployed but the evidence does not enable us to quantify this effect. This is one aspect of health inequalities which we are determined to reduce, as we stated in Healthy Lives, Healthy People, a document we published last year.
Libya
(12 years, 9 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Lord Howell of Guildford)
My Lords, United Kingdom Ministers have regularly raised concerns over the treatment of detainees since the liberation of Libya. Following recent reports, my honourable friends and fellow Foreign Office Ministers Mr Jeremy Browne and Mr Alistair Burt have raised the issue with the Libyan Interior Minister, Mr Abdilal, and the Deputy Foreign Minister. We welcome the Libyan Deputy Prime Minister’s recent commitment to investigate all violations of human rights and to bring all detainees under central government control.
Lord Judd
My Lords, does not the noble Lord agree that it is going to take more than words to deal with this situation? Does he not also agree that, just as our highly effective and professional armed services played such a key part in bringing about the downfall of Gaddafi and his regime, we must be as rigorous in our resolve to secure the standards of justice, human rights and freedom which were the rationalisation and reason for the rebellion against the existing regime?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I would certainly agree with that, and it is reflected in the discussions that Ministers have had in reiterating these concerns. The Libyan Interior Minister is actually visiting this country at this moment and Ministers are in close touch with him. Our ambassador in Tripoli has raised the matter with members of the transitional Government. The noble Lord is absolutely right: words are not enough; actions are required to gain control of the very disparate bodies and groups on the Libyan scene, which is the first problem, and to establish an orderly path towards a strong and democratic system of governance. All this is part of the pattern of tackling what is completely unacceptable behaviour.
Lord Wright of Richmond
My Lords, does the Minister accept that these appalling reports from Libya, along with the distressing reports of incidents in Port Said yesterday, argue for perhaps rather greater caution on joining other people’s calls for a change of regime in Syria?
Lord Howell of Guildford
The noble Lord touches on a difficult issue. The situations in the countries he has mentioned—Egypt, Libya and Syria—are completely different. We can see the horrors of Syria, including what are apparently child murders and other appalling atrocities, and we are pressing this matter as hard as we can at the United Nations—my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has been in New York for the past two days—to get full UN backing for the efforts of the Arab League and all those who want to bring to a halt the ghastly situation in Syria. I think that the noble Lord is fully aware of the difficulties at the United Nations in bringing along some of the members of the permanent Security Council, notably Russia and China. However, we are working very hard to bring them in line to meet the appalling situation in Syria.
Baroness Falkner of Margravine
Does my noble friend accept that in countries which are emerging from conflict, the building of institutions takes its time and is quite problematic? Can he tell the House whether the ample resources of the Stabilisation Unit and the Conflict Pool might be available to help train Libyan judges and the country’s police force so that they can comply with due process and improve their judicial standards?
Lord Howell of Guildford
My noble friend is quite right to draw attention to the fact that it takes time and that these are early days. It is just about a year since the Libyan liberation drama began to unfold. We must be patient but, in addition to what we are doing already, we will examine further means of supporting the training of judges and so forth. I have before me a long list of activities where the UK is supporting the Libyan democratic process and trying to ensure that it rolls forward smoothly. I could delay the House with the details, but I will not do so. However, my noble friend has certainly touched on one very important aspect.
Lord Davies of Coity
My Lords, some time ago when we were intervening in Libya, I asked the noble Lord about the occurrence of tribalism. Can he now say whether the brutalities that are taking place in Libya are as a result of tribalism out there?
Lord Howell of Guildford
I am afraid that I cannot give the noble Lord a detailed and informed answer because it is very hard to get all the information. There are tribal enclaves and there have been problems, as demonstrated by the continuing support of some villages and towns for the now totally discredited and removed Gaddafi regime. This support may well be linked to tribal and ancestral loyalties, and everyone recognises that the Libyan scene remains problematically influenced by many tribal traditions and rivalries. I can say no more than that for now and, while I shall look into it, I do not think that we are going to find very much more at the moment.
Baroness Berridge
My Lords, is the situation in Libya improving or deteriorating for sub-Saharan migrant workers who were caught up in the initial wave of imprisonment? What efforts is the Foreign and Commonwealth Office making to communicate with Britain’s diaspora communities, who are very concerned about this matter?
Lord Howell of Guildford
We are concerned about the matter as well. There is some evidence that some relief is being organised, but the situation remains far from satisfactory and we will keep a very close eye on it.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, following on from the excellent question of the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner of Margravine, can the Minister tell us what direct support the Foreign Office is able to give through financing the work that the Westminster Foundation for Democracy was doing in Libya, as well as that of the Law Society, which was engaging on some of the very points that the noble Baroness raised, on judge training and establishing the rule of law and functioning courts?
Lord Howell of Guildford
We support all these aspects. As I think the noble Baroness knows, although there was a dip in the funding for the Westminster Foundation for Democracy, there has been a modest but welcome increase for the current year. That reflects our belief, which we share with her, that its work is an extremely valuable part of the scene. As to the Law Society and other non-governmental but very important operations of the kind that she has mentioned, these are things that we encourage. We should certainly look at and develop judge training. We are looking at projects in civil society, electoral preparations, prison reform, asset tracking and public financial management. We are supporting the role of women through funding the first women’s convention in November; we are helping the Libyans strengthen their institutions and restore public services. There is a whole list of other areas in which we are involved. All these are very important. We want to see Libya emerge as a stable, democratic country, bringing peace and prosperity to its much benighted citizens.
Housing (Scotland) Act 2010 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2012
(12 years, 9 months ago)
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Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, will the Leader of the House make a Statement to the House on Monday, first, on when the Welfare Reform Bill will return to this House following Commons consideration of Lords amendments yesterday and, secondly, on the procedural impact on the Bill of the declaration of Commons financial privilege in relation to a number of the Bill’s clauses?
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, I accept the invitation that the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition has made. First, the decision on when we will take Lords consideration of Commons amendments on the Welfare Reform Bill will be made in the usual channels in due course and will then appear on the Order Paper, which I hope will be for the benefit of the House. We will have the discussions in the usual channels as soon as possible.
Secondly, the clerks of the House stand ready to give any noble Lord procedural advice, but perhaps I may repeat something that I said yesterday afternoon: namely, that privilege is nothing new, having existed for nearly 350 years, and that any amendment with implications for public expenditure might involve privilege, but that it is a matter for another place, not for me or us. As the previous Clerk of the Parliaments stated in a recently published memorandum,
“until the Commons asserts its privilege, the Lords is fully entitled to debate and agree to amendments with privilege implications”.
There is nothing new in any of this. The Commons asserts its privilege in almost every Session. It has done so already this Session and did so regularly in the previous Parliament. Indeed, the previous Department of Work and Pensions Bill that attracted financial privilege was in the Session 2006-07 when the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, himself was the Minister.
It is also worth reminding noble Lords that the Joint Committee on Conventions, which sat under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham and reported in 2006, said:
“If the Commons have disagreed to Lords Amendments on grounds of financial privilege, it is contrary to convention for the Lords to send back Amendments in lieu which clearly invite the same response”.
The House took note, with approval, of that report on 16 January 2007. If the Commons has asserted privilege, it is simply not profitable for this House to persist.
I hope that that is a helpful explanation of where we are, but I am grateful to the noble Baroness for giving me the opportunity of making this short statement.
Lord Newton of Braintree
My Lords, I do not know whether this is in order, but if it is I would like to do it. My noble friend should know that concern about this matter is not confined to the other side of the House. I also think that, notwithstanding what has just been said or what the previous Government may or may not have done in 2006, this raises real questions about the relationship in practice as it has existed over many years between the two Houses of Parliament. I think that we are entitled to an opportunity to hear a Statement and ask questions about just where that relationship is now going.
Lord Grocott
My Lords, I am prompted to stand because of the reference to the Cunningham committee on conventions. I simply put this serious question to the Leader of the House. I recognise the great difficulty at times—which was expressed in the length of his answer—in interpreting financial privilege, and the difficulty that he has in convincing Members of the House, including Members on his own side about if and when it should be applied. But can the noble Lord imagine himself telling 300 elected senators that matters such as benefits received by cancer patients or for disabled children were none of their business whatever and if any of their constituents raised any of those issues with them, as constituents inevitably would, they would have to explain that there was nothing they could sensibly do because it was not within their powers?
His position in trying to justify and hold that line would be quite impossible. Clause 2 of the draft Bill as it stands, which still insists that there will be no change in the conventions between the two Houses in the event of an elected House, is absolute nonsense. I therefore just put it to him as I did in perhaps less impassioned terms yesterday, that this is really an issue that the committee under the chairmanship of my noble friend Lord Richard must examine before it reports and advises the two Houses of Parliament.
Lord Lawson of Blaby
My Lords, I support very strongly my noble friend Lord Newton's point. While the House of Commons is perfectly entitled to claim privilege, it is not compelled to do so. The constitution of this country operates by conventions. It is one of the conventions of the constitution that this is evoked very sparingly and on rare occasions. For it to be invoked promiscuously is completely contrary to the conventions of the constitution. This raises serious issues and the House of Commons would be wise to think again.
Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean
My Lords, I support what the noble Lord, Lord Lawson, has just said and revert to the Cunningham committee report, which was very clear on the question of conventions developing and changing over a period of time. It specifically addressed whether the conventions should be codified and decided that that was not helpful to the way in which Parliament operates, but that conventions could develop. The Leader of the House quoted only part of the Cunningham report and not the point in its entirety.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
My Lords, when my noble friend makes the Statement that he indicates he wishes to make, I wonder if he could possibly indicate to your Lordships which provisions of the Welfare Reform Bill prevented it from being a money Bill.
Lord Cormack
My Lords, I noticed that when my noble and learned friend made his point a second or two ago, my noble friend on the Bench shook his head as the reference was made to a Statement. I implore my noble friend the Leader of the House to make a detailed Statement, because the relationship between the two Houses is fundamental to the working of our constitution. There is a fear among many Members on this side of the House that there is an overassertion of privilege, and that there may be reasons behind that. Therefore, it is important that this House has a proper opportunity to debate these issues at an early date.
Lord Alderdice
My Lords, apart from the question of the rights and conventions, there may also be a question of communication. The Reasons Committee of the House of Commons could perhaps be a little more forthcoming as to precisely why it feels that it is important to exercise privilege. It is not an absolute requirement. Perhaps it might be possible—without in any way encroaching on the rights of the other place—to explore whether a little more full communication might be possible, particularly in these areas of contention.
Lord Martin of Springburn
My Lords, I had no intention to come in yesterday and I had no intention to come in today. I rise only to try and be helpful, if that is possible. I took the bother to find out in Hansard what the Speaker said. He said:
“I must draw the House’s attention to the fact that financial privilege is involved in a substantial number of Lords amendments”.
He did not say “all” the Lords amendments, but a “substantial number”.
“If the House agrees to these amendments, I shall ensure that the appropriate entry is made in the Journal”.—[Official Report, Commons, 1/2/12; col. 826.]
He was not saying any more than that it would be put in the Journal—in other words, it would be put in the minutes of the meeting. I think we are making heavy weather of this matter, if you do not mind me saying so. The House down the other end rejected the amendments. Those amendments then come back to us for consideration; and when they do, each and every one of us can go and seek advice from the Clerk of the Parliament and we can also get a Statement from the Leader of the House—it is a tall order.
It has been hinted again that there might have been influence from the Government on what the Speaker had to say. Let me say that it was like penance every week having to listen to both the opposition and government Chief Whips because they were always complaining and moaning. However, the one thing when it comes to privilege is that it is the Speaker and his advisers alone who decide. The worst thing that a government Whip—or an opposition Whip, if he feels it is to his advantage—can do is to come to the Speaker and seek to influence matters like this. It would be counterproductive. I ask noble Lords to wait until the amendments come. I hope I have not given the Clerk of the Parliaments too onerous a task.
Lord Elystan-Morgan
My Lords, I wonder if the Minister will agree that the letter of the law has been absolutely clear for three centuries—any money element can give rise to a situation where privilege can be successfully claimed. However, it is not entirely clear, from looking at Erskine May, whether it turns on some discretion vested in the Speaker or in interpretation, although it may very well be that the same result is achieved in the end. One either has a liberal view of the situation or a much narrower one. Looking at it legalistically, there is a world of difference between a range of interpretation and a range of discretion. Might I respectfully suggest that this can be settled only by discussion at the highest level and in the most statesmanlike way with the other place; otherwise, a great deal of the function of this House as a revising Chamber will be totally emasculated?
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, may I just add to that point made by the noble Lord? I respectfully suggest to my noble friend the Leader of the House that he has a duty to the House as a whole, as well as to the Government’s interests. There have been a series of events that give the impression that the other place, which increasingly sends legislation up here that is not properly considered and debated, is treating this place with some contempt, not least of which is the suggestion that the Parliament Act might be used in respect of the reform of this place. I suggest to my noble friend that the time may have come for him to assert his authority as Leader of the House and have a frank chat with some of his colleagues.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I note all that has been said and the wisdom that has come from many Members of this House. I have two questions for the noble Lord. First, could he confirm that if the Government so wished they could waive financial privilege? Secondly, in the light of all that has been said in this very short debate and the importance of the work being undertaken by the Joint Committee in relation to conventions, I think that the House as a whole would welcome a Statement from the noble Lord on Monday to further discuss these issues.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, that was a useful tour around the House on this matter of privilege. From time to time there are debases on privilege in this House, and it is entirely right that we should have them. But as I have explained, the matter of privilege is nothing to do with the Government, although the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, is entirely right that in certain instances the Government can waive financial privilege—if, for instance, they were to agree with an amendment made in the House of Lords or to part of an amendment. As I understand it, neither of those occurred on this occasion.
As the noble Lord, Lord Martin of Springburn, explained yesterday and again today, financial privilege is a matter for the House of Commons alone and, within the House of Commons, it is a matter for the Speaker on advice from the Clerks, not from the Government. I do not think that it would be useful for this House to debate endlessly or take a view of procedures in another place, any more than we would like another place to have a view about the procedures in this House. Both Houses have a longstanding convention that we do not debate the other’s practice, and I think that that is entirely right.
What I sense underlies much of this angst is what the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, talked about, and my noble friend Lord Forsyth—about the possibility of a reform. I am the first to defend the rights and privileges of this House, as I have done continually since I have been Leader. It is perfectly true that in the scenario of an elected House over time, the procedures and powers in this House would evolve; it could well mean that we ended up with a stronger and more powerful House, better able to challenge decisions made in the House of Commons. But that is part of the evolution between the two Houses. It would be a reversal of the evolution that has taken place over the course of the past 100 years, or so, but there is no reason why that should happen. If the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, the noble Baroness, Lady Symons, and others were to amend or wish to amend a Bill on the reform of the House to do that, of course that is entirely possible. I am not sure what the Labour Party’s position is on the powers of the second Chamber. Perhaps this is the kind of positive thinking—or critical thinking, or continual thinking—that the Labour Party needs to do, apparently, and it will let its views be known.
My noble friend Lord Lawson was such a distinguished Chancellor of Exchequer for many years. I do not have the statistics, but I cannot believe that when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer he cheered every time the House of Lords spent more money.
Lord Strathclyde
I am well aware that my noble friend managed perfectly well.
My noble and learned friend Lord Mackay asked whether I was going to make a Statement on whether or why this was not a money Bill. I must say that I have not the faintest idea why this was not a money Bill. I am sure there are very good, practical and well precedented reasons why social security legislation is not deemed to be a money Bill.
A number of noble Lords have suggested that I should make a Statement at some stage next week on privilege. Let me consider that. There is no point making a Statement if we do not add very much more to the amount of knowledge that we already have. We will have an opportunity to debate the Bill when it returns from the House of Commons and when we have decided on a date, but if I can shed any extra light then I will do so. It might be better to have a Question for Short Debate, where we can discuss these matters in the round.
Baroness Royall of Blaisdon
My Lords, I have to crave the indulgence of the House once more to quote something back at the noble Lord the Leader from when I was a transgressor on financial privilege. This is a very enlightening piece from Hansard. The noble Lord the Leader said:
“The Government therefore did not seek to debate the substance of my noble friend’s amendment in another place last night; they simply declared it unconstitutional and cited privilege. I do not think that that is good enough. The Government should not hide behind the principle of privilege as a matter of course, because what is constitutional should be a matter for the whole of Parliament. Parliament should not accept the use of the privilege amendment in cases of doubt simply to stifle debate, which is the impression that the Government have given in dealing with my noble friend’s amendments. After all, if the amendments of your Lordships’ House are not to be discussed, what is the point of this House ever agreeing to any amendments? I ask the noble Baroness”—
that is, me—
“to consider this matter carefully with her colleagues in another place, with Members of this House and, perhaps, with the Clerk of the Parliaments and his opposite number in another place to see how this issue can be resolved. If the rights of your Lordships are well understood—not only in their limits but in their reality and usefulness—then none of us should see those rights lightly eroded”.—[Official Report, 25/11/08; cols. 1359-60.]
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, it is always nice to have my speeches quoted and of course we could do this all day. The noble Baroness could quote my rather good speeches and I could quote her equally good ones. In fact, I will requote what I also said to the noble Baroness in that same speech: that she had,
“rightly pointed out that there is a long established position that this House does not insist on an amendment where the other place cites financial privilege, and no one, least of all me, is trying to change that”.—[Official Report, 25/11/08; col. 1359.]
I rest my case.
The Lord Speaker (Baroness D'Souza)
My Lords, the question is that the original three Motions in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, be agreed to en bloc.
Motions agreed.
Scotland Bill
(12 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Browne of Ladyton
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, I speak Amendments 18 and 20 in my name and that of my noble and learned friend. Clause 11 devolves legislative competence to the Scottish Parliament in relation to the regulation of some of the powers on air weapons, as recommended by the Calman commission. The purpose of our amendment is, again, to probe the rationale behind the Government’s selective implementation of the Calman commission recommendations. Amendment 18 seeks to remove the exception that the Government make to the devolution of powers to license air weapons in the case of those weapons designated as “specially dangerous” by the Secretary of State.
The Minister will forgive any deficiencies in the amendment itself. It seeks to improve a definition in an area of law that is fraught with confusion and in serious need of rationalisation. It is a continuing disappointment that the Government—and I think that the previous Government were in the same position about this—have not yet heeded the calls from the Home Affairs Select Committee, among others, on firearms control that call on the Government to rationalise the regulation of firearms in one single piece of legislation. The legislation is difficult to understand as it is presently enacted. None the less, I hope that the amendment will give the House the opportunity to debate the issue of the devolution of air weapons regulation in detail and to tease out from the Government the rationale behind the continued reservation of certain powers for the licensing of these weapons to the Secretary of State rather than devolving them.
Grouped with our amendments is Amendment 19 in the name of the noble Earl, Lord Shrewsbury, who generously shared with me the argument and some of the points that he intends to make in support of it. I do not intend to steal his thunder, but in general terms they test and explore the practicalities of two separate regulatory regimes on this one island. His points are germane to the workability of what is proposed. I look forward to his contribution and, more eagerly, to the Minister’s responses to his contribution and the questions that he will pose.
It will be known to many noble Lords that air weapons are an issue of particular importance to the people of Scotland. There have been too many cases in recent years when misuse has led to terrible consequences, such as the tragedy of two year-old Andrew Morton’s death. The people of Scotland demand action from their politicians and we on this side of the House wholeheartedly support the devolution of powers to Scotland to regulate or, if the Scottish people choose to do so, to ban air weapons, but that is a matter for the Scottish Parliament. We are not blind to the practical consequences of such a change.
We are concerned, however, that the Bill as it stands does not go far enough in granting Scotland the powers that it needs if there is to be a change, and does not faithfully reflect the Calman commission’s recommendations, despite noting from the Calman commission that,
“there are advantages in having common offences relating to the misuse of firearms across Great Britain and that there could be serious disadvantages in having different, unco-ordinated policies”—
the important word there is “unco-ordinated”. The commission advised that,
“if there is appetite to deal with air weapons differently in Scotland than south of the border then the advantages of enabling the Scottish Parliament to do so outweigh the disadvantages”,
and therefore recommended that the regulation of airguns should be devolved to the Scottish Parliament. The commission explicitly rejected the Scottish National Party’s call for the devolution of firearms regulation in its totality, something that we on this side of the House do not support, on the basis that Calman found no evidence that Scotland had a particularly acute problem that demanded distinct legislation as opposed to any other part of Great Britain. However, the commission concluded that there was sufficient reason to discriminate between firearms because of a genuine appetite on the part of Scotland to deal differently with these particular air weapons, and this clear demand outweighed the possible disadvantages of a differentiated system.
It is important that the reason the commission did not recommend the devolution of legislative competence over all firearms was not the cross-border problems of an unco-ordinated policy but because of a lack of perceived necessity for the differentiated policy, and that meant that the balance fell in favour of co-ordination. When the commission found evidence for a real need for devolution, it found in favour of devolution with no exception, despite the fact that some air weapons are clearly as dangerous as other firearms.
However, the Government have decided to exempt those “specially dangerous” air weapons that are subject to special licensing or prohibition by the Secretary of State from devolution. This is clearly contrary to the commission’s recommendations and, in my submission, will only add to the confusion and fragmentation of an already confused and fragmented area of the law—firearms regulation across the UK. Noble Lords will note that this amendment does not remove the exception to air weapons which are prohibited under Section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968, and Section 1(4) of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988. However, I would still like to probe the Government’s logic here; to me it seems unclear.
The devolution of legislative competence over air weapons currently banned in the UK would, indeed, create a differentiated system of regulation across the UK, with all the associated cross-border problems. However, the Government must anticipate that the devolution of competence over most air weapons, which is what they propose, is still likely to produce such a result; the only difference being that the prohibition or the regulation of the other air weapons will exist in Scotland and not in the rest of the United Kingdom.
I regret that when this clause was debated in another place, the focus of the debate was largely on the Scottish nationalist obsession with the devolution of powers over all firearms and this issue, although presented to the other place, was not debated or properly answered. I hope that today we will have an opportunity to focus debate on the specific settlement proposed in the Bill and to ensure that the Scottish Parliament is granted the powers it needs properly to address the issue of air weapons in Scotland.
The Earl of Shrewsbury
My Lords, with the leave of the House, I wish to speak to my Amendment 19. I declare an interest as honorary president of the Gun Trade Association.
The format of this amendment is not without recent persuasive precedent. The Firearms (Electronic Communications) Order 2011 was made under the authority of Section 8 of the Electronic Communications Act 2000 and provides for the Secretary of State to direct forms of electronic communication that may be used for sending statutory notices under the various firearms Acts. Before giving any such direction, the Secretary of State is required to consult Scottish Ministers, the Associations of Chief Police Officers in Scotland and in England and Wales and “such other persons” as he “feels should be consulted”—a term which the Home Office suggests in its circular must include the main shooting organisations as well.
Clause 11 of the Bill contains no indication of the type of changes to the law concerning low-powered air guns that are envisaged by those who have sought to have controls devolved to the Scottish Government. However, Scottish Government press releases issued under the authority of the present Secretary for Justice have indicated that a form of licensing of air guns has been, and is, under active consideration. The amendment seeks to ensure that full and detailed consideration is given to all the ramifications of any form of legislation by requiring a consultation process that includes a cost-benefit analysis.
The imposition of restrictive legislation on air guns will have cross-border implications on those who travel with firearms to Scotland from other parts of the United Kingdom, from within Europe and from the wider world; or from Scotland to such places. Air guns are generally excluded from most aspects of firearms legislation and are outside the definition of “firearm” for the purposes of the European directive, Article 1(1). Only where the control of firearms has had a particularly troubled history in countries such as Ireland and Northern Ireland are air guns treated in the same way as firearms.
As we all know, the border between Scotland and England is entirely open. Different legislation on each side of an unpoliced border will create major problems in terms of movement of individuals and of air guns themselves. For the trade there will be serious issues in respect of mail order and face-to-face transfers in either direction. Direct sales, either by way of trade or between individuals, will be completely unpoliceable. It seems right that police on both sides of the border should be consulted about potential policing problems, and that the trade on both sides of the border should be consulted about the effects on its businesses.
The burden on the police of a licensing system for air guns will be enormous. Initially, some 500,000 air gun owners in Scotland may be affected but it seems probable that a proportion of owners will not take up the licensing scheme and will either dispose of their air guns or retain them without a licence. There is little chance of the greater proportion of non-compliance being discovered, since there is no record of those who now own air guns. Your Lordships may well be aware that a considerable percentage of air weapons carry no serial numbers, in particular the less expensive and therefore far more common weapons, and are therefore untraceable.
The initial take-up of licensing may be by 500,000 or fewer people. Existing holders of firearm and shotgun certificates total some 67,000 individuals. If a system akin to that for licensing firearms and shotguns were to be imposed on air guns, the burden on the police firearms licensing departments would increase eightfold, at a time when firearms licensing departments are cutting staff and slippage in turnaround of applications is becoming far worse.
According to a 2009 survey by ACPO in England and Wales, the grant of a firearm or shotgun certificate involves six or seven hours of police time. That may be overstated, but if a licence for an air gun involved only three hours of police time, more than 1.5 million additional hours would be required in the first year. Perhaps exemptions would be made for existing firearm and shotgun certificate holders, or perhaps further savings could be made by way of various exemptions; but even then the burden on the police would be more than 1 million man-hours. This has to be paid for.
It may be argued that the cost of all this could be recovered from the air gun owner, but Treasury guidelines demand that fees reflect only the actual cost of issuing the licence or certificate in question, and these recover only a small part of the cost to the firearms licensing department. They do not include enforcement measures or costs not directly linked to the grant of the individual licence.
Police in other parts of the United Kingdom would be involved in costs—probably large costs—related to the enforcement of any new laws in Scotland. An air gun sent by a dealer in England to a customer in Scotland might well involve a contravention of Scottish but not English law. However, inquiries would have to be made by English police about the actions of the English dealer.
Sporting shooting is an important factor in the economics of Scotland. According to VisitScotland, those living outside Scotland who visit Scotland for sporting shooting generate some £50 million per year for the Scottish economy. It is not unusual for the visitor to take an air gun with him for use against pests or in recreation. Such people will either continue to do so in ignorance of a new law, or they may be deterred from visiting at all if bureaucratic controls are in place. Major international target-shooting events are staged in various parts of the United Kingdom. Large numbers of competitors travel from Scotland to compete in events at world-famous venues such as Bisley, while the major Scottish meetings attract members from England and further afield. Shooters are likely to be inhibited from travelling to such events by bureaucratic controls, and many will simply stay away. Organisations representing field and target shooters on both sides of the border should be consulted.
Finally, while Clause 11 relates only to the potential for laws to license or otherwise restrict air guns in Scotland, such laws will impact on the rest of the United Kingdom, and it is right that proper consultation with those inside and outside Scotland should be required, so that those who may be affected at least have a statutory right to have their views heard.
The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Browne, and my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury for giving us an opportunity to look at this part of the Bill that specifically relates to devolution in respect of air weapons.
The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Browne, seeks to remove the exception the Government have made in the Scotland Bill to the devolution of powers to license air weapons. Clause 11 provides that the Secretary of State retains the powers to make rules under Section 53 of the Firearms Act 1968 to specify weapons as “specially dangerous” and so require a firearms certificate, and also to make orders under Section 1(4) of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 to prohibit specially dangerous weapons.
The contributions of the noble Lord and my noble friend indicated that this is a complex issue and I take the general point about the legislation being in different Acts. I therefore fully recognise why the noble Lord wishes to explore fully why the Government are not devolving the powers that are part of the exception in Clause 11. This was discussed in another place. In many respects, the issue turns on the way in which the Firearms Acts are drafted and the need to ensure that all specially dangerous weapons are dealt with on a consistent basis across the United Kingdom. Like the noble Lord, we should perhaps go back to the report of the Calman commission, which recommended that only air weapons should be devolved—although we know that there are those who would wish devolution to be extended to all firearms. I know that other members of the Calman commission are present. I do not remember us having any particular discussion of subcategories of air weapons that might be described as specially dangerous.
The Government believe that it would be confusing and potentially damaging to create a situation in which much of the body of firearms legislation in Scotland could differ substantially from that in England and Wales. Calman, too, said that there could be,
“serious disadvantages in having different, uncoordinated policies”,
and therefore does not recommend devolving generally the subject of the Firearms Acts. That being so, we need to ensure that there is a common framework for the most lethal weapons across Great Britain, and this will include what are known as Section 1 firearms, such as hunting rifles, which require a firearms certificate issued by the local police.
In accepting the Calman recommendation that air weapons should be devolved, we looked to do that by adding an exception to Section B4 in Schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998, which currently reserves firearms by reference to the subject matter of the Firearms Acts 1968 to 1997. Those Acts cover regulation of the manufacture, possession, handling, purchase or acquisition, sale, distribution and transfer of firearms. They distinguish between different types of firearms in certain respects and make different provision for different types, including air weapons. Air weapons are defined in the current legislation in accordance with Section 1(3)(b) of the Firearms Act 1968. This refers to an air rifle, air gun or air pistol which has not been declared to be specially dangerous by rules made by the Secretary of State under Section 53 of the Act, and is not a prohibited weapon.
I claim no expertise or experience whatever in firearms, but I understand that currently, air pistols generating a muzzle energy in excess of six foot pounds and other air weapons generating a muzzle energy in excess of 12 foot pounds have been declared to be specially dangerous for these purposes. This means in practice that an air weapon which has been declared as specially dangerous becomes subject to the requirement to hold and abide by a firearms certificate. It therefore ceases in practical terms to be treated as an air weapon under Section 1(3)(b) of the Firearms Act 1968. Control of these types of weapon need to remain reserved, which is why the power to make rules under Section 53 of the 1968 Act will remain those of the Secretary of State.
I reassure noble Lords that we are not looking to restrict the way in which the Scottish Parliament exercises its legislative competence in respect of air weapons. I acknowledge that there is a drafting complexity in Clause 11, but in practice the Scottish Parliament will be able to regulate air weapons in the way in which it chooses.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My noble and learned friend simply stated that the regulation of those more powerful weapons needed to be reserved. Can he explain why?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
Because that takes them into a category for which licensing is required. We took the view, as did Calman, that there are categories of firearms which should not be devolved, those which might be described as more powerful, more dangerous, and that the particular air weapons which are the subject of our debate fall into that category and have more in common with firearms covered by other parts of the Firearms Acts than they do with other air weapons. It is because of their potential lethality. That is why there seemed to be a distinction between them and air weapons which are the subject of devolution.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I am genuinely trying to understand this. If the Scottish Parliament was to have power to regulate those “less dangerous” air weapons, how would it do that without having a licensing scheme? If my noble and learned friend’s argument is that they are required to be part of a licensing scheme, I do not understand the logic of it. If the Government’s view is that the Scottish Parliament ought to have this responsibility, is the Minister saying that it can only have responsibility for weapons if they are not very dangerous? It seems to be a little illogical to me.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
With respect, it is not illogical at all. A point I will raise when I respond to my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury is that this is devolution of a power. How the Scottish Parliament chooses to exercise that power, if at all, is a matter for the Scottish Parliament. I am trying to find the relevant part of the Calman commission report, which dealt not with the point about especially dangerous air weapons but with the more general point about firearms.
The commission indicated that the UK Government of the day had,
“argued that any ban on a firearm which it is currently legal to possess would need to be underpinned by a compensation scheme. It argues that where such firearms are currently unregulated”—
which is the specific case for air guns—
“it would be difficult to prevent them being legally and cheaply acquired in one jurisdiction and passed off for compensation in another which had introduced a ban. This is not an argument against devolution itself as much as it is a caution to a devolved administration making difficult policy decisions it believes to be in the best interests of its citizens. Whilst there would undoubtedly be practical considerations and potential difficulties in any divergence of approach to firearms control they do not preclude the development of robust mechanisms for managing cross-border problems, information sharing and good communications”.
The Calman commission did not think that the case had been made for the devolution of firearms generally. The point is that especially dangerous air weapons are, in effect, firearms, licensed across Britain on the basis of what I think is widely recognised as a strict, world-leading regime. The Government do not wish to undermine that strict framework for the most dangerous weapons. Air guns that are the subject of devolution in this clause are not subject, at the moment, to what might be described as that strict licensing regime. That distinction is made, which is why the exception to the devolution of air weapons is being made in this clause.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I am grateful to my noble friend. Perhaps it might be better if I made a speech rather than asked questions, but I am struggling to understand the logic here. The Minister has read from the report by the Calman commission, which was chaired by Ken Calman, for whom I have considerable respect; he was my Chief Medical Officer for Scotland. I am not sure that he is actually an expert on firearms regulation. The Minister’s quotation from the report seems to be saying that this would be very difficult to administer and very expensive. That is not an argument against giving Scotland the power, because it might not use it. However, not giving it the power creates the kind of uncertainty that my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury talked about.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
The noble Lord, Lord Browne, quoted other parts of the report, which said that, notwithstanding that, there would be cases where devolution would be appropriate. Indeed, the commission identified particularly Scottish circumstances as to why air weapons should be devolved. That was the commission’s recommendation, which not only the present Government accept and are trying to implement through the Bill; the previous Government also agreed to the principle of devolving the power to regulate air weapons to the Scottish Parliament in the White Paper that they published in response to the Calman commission.
I am trying to make the point that some categories of air weapons are currently subject to a licensing regime because of their power. We still seek to maintain that reservation for that category, subject to the Secretary of State’s powers under Section 53 of the Firearms Act.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I thank the noble and learned Lord for giving way. Indeed, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, who, in one simple question, encapsulated what it probably took me seven minutes to say. The purpose of this devolution is to respond to an obvious desire in Scotland for the greater regulation of air weapons generally. Regulating them more means licensing, at the very minimum. It is inconceivable that if the Scottish Parliament is given this power, it will not make all air weapons subject to a licensing regime. The distinction, therefore, between an air weapon of lesser capacity, force or power not being regulated and one of more power being regulated disappears. There will be two licensing regimes for air weapons when, in my submission, there should be one. If there is to be a distinction between, or a subdivision in, the licensing regimes for air weapons—one at the UK level and one at the Scottish level—will that not just add to the confusion rather than making matters simpler?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I see the point that the noble Lord is making but I do not necessarily follow him down that route. For a start, this is the devolution of a power. It is a prescription as to how that power might or should be used and, even if it is a licensing scheme, it may well be very different. We seem to be getting weapons that are not subject to the kind of strict licensing regime that we have at the moment. Therefore, I think that a distinction can be made, which we wish to keep, for weapons of greater power so that we can maintain consistency across the United Kingdom. As I have already quoted from Calman—it might even be the passage that the noble Lord read out—there seem to be advantages in maintaining that consistency.
The Earl of Shrewsbury
Although my noble friend says that this is enabling legislation which the Scottish Parliament may or may not put in place, does he not agree that the Scottish Parliament is already doing it when the Act has not yet been passed? It is already investigating my people from the Gun Trade Association who have been up there to give evidence to it.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My noble friend made a very powerful speech. However, we cannot make presumptions in that regard; nor can we presume what the shape of any licensing regime would be. The points that his colleagues in the gun trade are making may well help to determine the shape of that legislation.
Perhaps I may turn to my noble friend’s amendment. He has set out very clearly what he sees as the consequences of imposing restrictions on air guns in Scotland, if indeed the Scottish Parliament chooses to go down that route. He has highlighted how any changes will have implications for the trade and for the police not just with regard to licences but with regard to the financial burden that he has outlined, and he has suggested that they are consulted by the Scottish Government before any new legislation is introduced.
The Duke of Montrose
Perhaps my noble and learned friend could clarify one of the points introduced by the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton. The power in the Bill would presumably prevent the Scottish Parliament making any legislation on powerful weapons—it would be able to bring in regulation only on the non-powerful weapons—whereas what the noble Lord, Lord Browne, said might have been interpreted as meaning that it would try to regulate both.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I am not sure that that is the case. However, I think my noble friend is right that the power in the Bill does not relate to more powerful weapons. Especially dangerous air weapons are already licensed. We are providing Scottish Ministers with a power to put in place a licensing regime, as the noble Lord suggested, for air weapons, which are not regulated under the current GB framework. A very simple distinction has been made between weapons that are currently regulated and those that are not, and the devolution of power relates to those that are currently regulated.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I am sorry; it is very bad to interrupt my noble and learned friend so often but I just do not understand this. I can understand the concept—the wish—to devolve to the Scottish Parliament the power to regulate firearms, and the wish to give to the Scottish Parliament the power to regulate air weapons. However, I do not understand the concept that the Scottish Parliament should be able to deal with only some air weapons and not others. That will create monumental confusion and we could end up with a system where the less dangerous weapons are subject to more control than the most dangerous weapons, which would be absolutely absurd. How would we avoid that?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I think that my noble friend is seeing difficulties where they do not really exist. The clear view was taken by the Calman commission, by the previous Labour Administration and by the present Government that firearms as a whole should not be devolved. We are trying to explain—and I apologise to your Lordships if I am not doing so sufficiently well—that the weapons that under Clause 11 are not being devolved fall more closely into the category of firearms than unregulated air weapons, which are being devolved. Therefore, we are maintaining a consistency with regard to weapons that are currently the subject of a licensing regime vis-à-vis weapons that are not currently the subject of a strict licensing regime.
My noble friend says that that could lead to a stricter licensing regime. I have to concede that that is technically possible if the Scottish Parliament sees fit to do that, although I would have thought that some of the compelling arguments made by my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury may well mean that a bit of common sense will prevail when it shapes these powers. That is the essence of devolution. If a power relating to air weapons is devolved, as long as it is consistent within the confines of the Scotland Act it is a question of how that power is exercised.
Viscount Slim
My Lords, in a past life, I, with others, was able to experiment at some length with the possible advantage of an air gun for military use. On the market at the moment there are air guns that are lethal and really dangerous. There are air guns that some people say are less dangerous but, in the wrong hands, all air guns kill or maim to such an extent that you might perhaps wish you were dead. Has not the noble Earl, Lord Shrewsbury, put his finger on it? There seems to be a muddle. If you let the civil servants of both nations loose, you will have a much bigger muddle; you will have a catastrophe. Surely the noble Earl is right that before ruling on this, the proper government officials of both nations—I say nations now because everyone wants to be different and separate—should work out what is a dangerous weapon. The noble Earl is quite right that senior police officers from both countries and government officials should get together and then perhaps we shall make a sensible Bill.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, the noble Viscount makes a wider case about a general review of firearms at the UK level. The question of air weapons goes considerably further than the scope of this Bill, although I am sure the important points that he makes will be noted. This also covers the point made by the noble Lord. My noble friend pointed out that a licensing scheme would impose significant and costly burdens on firearms licensing departments and he expressed concern that shooters might be deterred from visiting Scotland by what might become overly bureaucratic controls. Taking these factors together, he proposes a statutory right for those affected by any changes to have their views heard.
As I have said in the context of the debate of what is and is not devolved, it is not for this Government to gainsay any of the reasons he has adduced in relation to the licensing of air weapons. Indeed, I recognise that sports shooting is a valuable contributor to the Scottish economy and that any change to firearms legislation is rarely straightforward.
That said, the nature of devolution is that a power is devolved and it is then up to the devolved body to determine how it wishes to exercise that power, as always, within the constraints of the law. This amendment, moved by my noble friend, would fetter the Scottish Government’s and Scottish Parliament’s discretion as to how they might go about the task of regulating air weapons. That was not the recommendation from the Calman commission.
However, while this is not a matter for the statute, I would say to my noble friend and to the Committee that one should fully expect the Scottish Government to consult appropriately before it proposes any new legislation on this matter in the same way that it would normally do with other Bills submitted to the Scottish Parliament. Indeed, it is worth reminding the Committee that the standing orders of the Scottish Parliament, at rule 9.3.3, require a policy memorandum to accompany any executive Bill setting out,
“the consultation, if any, which was undertaken on those objectives and the ways of meeting them or on the detail of the Bill and a summary of the outcome of that consultation”.
Certainly the categories of consultation that have been suggested by my noble friend would appear to be eminently sensible. It is also important to point out that over a range of issues there is regular contact between the Scottish Government and the UK Government with regard to proposals that are coming forward for legislation in the Scottish Parliament. The UK Government will, of course, continue to work with the Scottish Government once the power is devolved to ensure that all who own air weapons and use them legitimately are clear on what the legal requirements would be north and south of the border and will indeed flag up to interested bodies that are not in Scotland that there may be some relevance here, not least ACPO, which may wish to make representations.
In addition, each Bill introduced into the Scottish Parliament must, in line with rule 9.3.2 of the standing orders, be accompanied by a financial memorandum which,
“shall set out the best estimates of the administrative, compliance and other costs to which the provisions of the Bill would give rise, best estimates of the timescales over which such costs would be expected to arise, and an indication of the margins of uncertainty in such estimates. The Financial Memorandum must distinguish separately such costs as would fall upon … (a) the Scottish Administration; (b) local authorities; and (c) other bodies, individuals and businesses”.
It certainly seems to me, from what my noble friend said, that, in terms of the financial costs, we can anticipate some quite comprehensive evidence being presented under these headings.
Ultimately, the Scottish Parliament will be the final arbiter but where there are issues to be resolved it would be hoped that the Scottish Government will wish to listen to the arguments. It would appear that already there is engagement with some of the interest groups and stakeholders in this area. My understanding is that they have already set up a consultative group to advise on proposals to introduce a system to license air weapons in Scotland and I assume it will continue to meet if Parliament agrees that this clause should be enacted.
I hope I have indicated that there is a distinction between what is being devolved and the categories of air guns which are not being devolved and that in fact there are adequate procedures in the standing orders of the Scottish Parliament, both for extensive consultation and for the financial burdens to be properly aired and presented to the Parliament. On that basis, I invite the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.
The Earl of Caithness
My Lords, perhaps my noble and learned friend can help me on the use of air weapons. Would it be possible for there to be two sets of regulations north and south of the border? In those regulations, would it be possible to prohibit the use of a weapon from England, say, in Scotland where it does not have to be licensed, whereas in England it has to be licensed? Would it be possible for the Scottish Government, within regulations, to make an order that that weapon could not be brought into Scotland and used?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I seem to recall going over some details during the Calman commission. It must happen already when shooting parties come from other parts of the European Union. The trouble is that I cannot remember what answer the Calman commission got. I had better not mislead my noble friend and I shall write to him giving him chapter and verse.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, I am still not persuaded by my noble and learned friend. Perhaps I am getting old and cynical. He served on the Calman commission and it is interesting that none of the other members of the Calman commission has felt able to contribute to this interesting debate and explain how they came to this conclusion.
One remembers the genesis of the Calman commission. It was an initiative led by the Labour Party, which the other unionist parties joined in with in order to prevent the case for independence and the nationalists being able to gain control of the Scottish Parliament. In that sense, it fell at the first fence. The idea was to look at what further powers beyond this Scotland Act could be devolved to Scotland. If I may address my noble and learned friend as a member of the Calman commission, one has the sense that he was scrambling around trying to think of things which could be devolved to the Scottish Parliament.
Something that worried me about my noble and learned friend's response to my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury was that he kept relying on what the Calman commission recommended. The commission made recommendations to the Government. It was the responsibility of the Government to consider them, decide what made sense and put forward their proposals. We are not talking here about the Calman commission's proposals; this is a government proposal. I respectfully suggest to my noble and learned friend that as a Minister in the Government he should be able to defend it.
I cannot for the life of me understand why it would be desirable to have another licensing system for air guns in parallel with the one that exists south of the border. I can see the argument. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, rightly pointed to some horrible and tragic cases that occurred in Scotland. However, there is nothing unique about Scotland that means that these cases could not also happen in England. The corollary is that the Government should look at the licensing of air weapons throughout the United Kingdom. If one is going to pass laws—as my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury pointed out—one ought to be conscious of how one is going to enforce them. If we get to a position where air weapons are either illegal in Scotland or are subject to a different regulatory regime from that which exists in England, how will that be enforced at the border? Will we have guys on the A74 checking whether the precise nature of a weapon meets the regulations that have been passed by the Scottish Parliament?
Faced with these challenges, my noble and learned friend resorted to the argument that, “We are only devolving the power. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, is putting forward arguments about what might occur if the Parliament chose to exercise that power”. However, this Parliament should not create the legislative possibility of creating great confusion and difficulty in the administration of firearms legislation. The clause would be better if it gave the Scottish Parliament the power to deal with all weapons. If my noble and learned friend's argument is that some of these weapons are firearms, it becomes very difficult to see as one goes down this road how one would defend not giving the Scottish Parliament complete authority over all firearms, in which case we would have different regimes on different sides of the border—and that would make controlling firearms almost impossible. We seem to be creating a difficulty.
My noble and learned friend accused me of seeing problems where they did not exist. I do not see why the current regime would not be capable of dealing with the concern about air weapons, and I can see how this clause will create great confusion and difficulty. As my noble friend Lord Shrewsbury pointed out, air weapons do not have serial numbers. It is asking a lot of a policeman to look at an air weapon and decide which category it is in. This looks like the product of a political fix. There was great public concern about air weapons; it was a big issue. The Calman commission said, “We must do something about air weapons”. It looked at the practicalities and found that they were very difficult, so we ended up with a camel designed by a committee.
I urge my noble and learned friend to look at this again. It is a very serious matter and I do not believe that the Bill addresses the practicalities involved. I support the noble Earl’s very modest amendment, which does not seek to attack—as I have just done—the basis of the legislation in the clause.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who took part in what developed into a debate that was much more interesting than my introduction. From my experience in your Lordships' House, that did not surprise me. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, who in one of his early interventions brought a degree of clarity that I had not managed to achieve to a point I had tried to make. I disagreed with some of his other interventions, but we will have an opportunity to debate the genesis and value of Calman at a later stage and in proper circumstances. However, in his most recent intervention he may well have pointed out where the problem lies in relation to a coherent approach to this. It is a matter of regret that we do not have a Home Office Minister at the Dispatch Box to respond to the debate.
The story that lies behind this is that repeated incidents in Scotland of the nature of the tragic death that I referred to generated a desire to regulate air weapons. The noble Viscount, Lord Slim, pointed out very wisely from his informed background that air weapons are all potentially lethal. There was a discussion between those who represented the Scots, including Members of Parliament and the Home Office, which moved toward the possibility of regulation on a UK level, but then stopped. The frustration generated by the Home Office's unwillingness to proceed exacerbated the discontent in Scotland. An indication that something would be done was snatched away. The key difference is between weapons that are regulated and those that are not, because those that are not have the potential to be lethal and have been proven to be lethal in a number of cases. This has caused the Scottish people to say, “We want our Parliament to have the power to do something about unregulated weapons and to regulate them”. That is the set of circumstances to which Calman responded. Far from having to look around for powers to devolve, the significant cross-party lobby for the regulation of air weapons in Scotland was waiting for the opportunity of Calman or something similar to articulate its arguments.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I apologise if I gave the impression that the regulation of air weapons was not an issue. When I said that they were looking around for powers, I meant that they were looking around for powers to devolve. There certainly was an issue. Another example, which we will come to later, is giving the Scottish Parliament the power to decide speed limits. We have ended up with a Bill that gives the Scottish Parliament the power to regulate the speed of motor cars but not of HGV lorries. That is absurd. The distinction between different categories of air weapons is a similar example.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I am grateful to the noble Lord for his intervention. I understood the rhetorical point that he made. In relation to the issue that we are debating, there is a very strong desire in Scotland to have air weapons regulated. The Scottish people would have been happy if there had been a prospect of a system of regulation that would have been applied to the whole of the United Kingdom. In the absence of that prospect, the Scottish people say—and I agree with them—that if the power can be given to the Scottish Parliament, this should at least have the opportunity to regulate air weapons and to deal in some way with the obvious menace of their misuse. I am grateful to the noble Lord for allowing me to make that point in this context. Otherwise, what may appear to some to be a trivial piece of devolution, or to others to be something that is delivering unnecessary complications, will not be seen in its proper context.
I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for the care he took in responding to my probing amendment on these matters. Characteristically, he engaged with the issue and articulated what I thought was the Government's argument for this exception to the devolution of responsibility for all air weapons. He will appreciate that I need to study his response, because I am not familiar with this area of law and I know how complicated it is. I incline to the view that if the distinction is caused by the existing licensing regime for some weapons—when I anticipate that there will be a licensing regime for all weapons—I may not be satisfied and may have to return to the matter on Report. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, I approach the Dispatch Box to probe again the distinctions between what Calman recommended and what the Government have chosen to do. On this occasion, the Government have gone beyond the Calman recommendations.
Clause 12 has the backing of respected bodies, such as the Law Society of Scotland and the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland. During the many evidence sessions throughout the Calman process, it became clear that the insolvency profession in Scotland sought the harmonisation of insolvency law on both sides of the border. However, Clause 12 goes beyond the original Calman recommendations. Your Lordships will recall that Calman recommended that the UK Insolvency Service be responsible for laying down the rules to be applied by insolvency practitioners on both sides of the border.
Calman went on to recommend that this could be achieved by UK legislation to which the Scottish Parliament would consent by a legislative consent Motion under the Sewel convention—I think those are the exact words of the recommendation. I understand that technically—a word I do not like to use—this is exactly what the Government have done in the sense that this Bill is UK legislation that has to be consented to by a legislative consent Motion by the Scottish Parliament. However, that appears to be a pedantic argument, and I do not expect that the noble and learned Lord will resort to it.
The clause does not appear to be in keeping with the spirit of the original Calman recommendations. Does the Minister believe that this is the correct implementation of Calman, or does he agree that it goes beyond Calman? It goes beyond the reservation of the power for the Insolvency Service to lay down the rules to be applied by insolvency practitioners on both sides of the border and reserves the whole body of law on corporate insolvency. If the Minister agrees that this goes beyond the Calman recommendation, will he outline the reasons for so doing?
The report of the Scotland Bill Committee of the Scottish Parliament, which was overwhelmingly approved by the earlier legislative consent Motion of the Scottish Parliament—as I have said before, it was supported by Alex Salmond—approved Clause 12, subject to provisions being drafted that will secure capacity for devolved legislation to effect the winding-up of registered social landlords. Does the Minister believe that this condition has been satisfactorily met? If so, can he explain why that is the case; and, if not, can he justify to this House why he has decided to pursue an alternative path to that sought by the Scotland Bill Committee?
During the debate on this clause in the other place, the Scottish nationalists asserted that there were concerns about the process of amending existing provisions on winding up registered social landlords. One concern is that future amendments, they say, would be easier to come by if this policy area were devolved rather than reserved. As is often the case with Scottish nationalists, this was asserted as though it were fact, and, as is also often the case with them, the assertion was not backed up by any evidence to suggest that that would be the case. No examples were given to support this theory, for that is all it is. It appears simply to be a continuation of their argument that everything would be better if it were devolved to the Scottish Parliament. The Minister in the other place, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland, argued that this is not a cause for real concern, and I support that position.
However, the Minister went on to say that there was a problem and that there were ongoing discussions between the Insolvency Service and the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations to discuss the latter’s specific concerns about this clause. Perhaps the Minister will update the House on the progress, or better still the outcome, of those discussions to satisfy us that the issue has been resolved. I am certainly not the only Member of this House to have received a briefing note from the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations that articulated continuing concern about the impact of this clause. I would not like to think that this is a sign that discussions were not successful, but if they were not successful, the Minister should explain to the Committee what is going on.
There is an identified issue here about circumstances that may arise in the winding-up or potential insolvency of a particular vehicle for delivering important housing in Scotland or a housing association. It is recognised that this needs to be resolved by discussion or perhaps by a change in regulation. Before we agree to this clause standing part of the Bill as drafted, your Lordships' House is entitled to know whether that issue has been addressed and satisfactorily resolved, or at least to have the confidence that a resolution is on its way.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Browne, for giving us an opportunity to look at this clause. Schedule 2 is also relevant to insolvency. As he indicated, there was a recommendation from the Calman commission that the UK Insolvency Service should be made responsible for laying down rules to be applied by insolvency practitioners on both sides of the border. The noble Lord asked a very pertinent question about why the Bill goes beyond the specific terms of the Calman commission’s recommendation.
The commission was persuaded by evidence from stakeholders, such as the Law Society of Scotland and the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland, that a consistent approach to winding up would bring significant benefits to creditors, companies, insolvency practitioners and others dealing with insolvent companies in both England and Wales and Scotland. The Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland said:
“We do not see any advantage in encouraging divergence of practice when businesses across the UK operate in a similar environment”,
and,
“This will promote a more stable environment for corporate recovery and turnaround and be more comprehensible for creditors and potential investors”
Certainly in the present environment, that is an important consideration. Many winding-ups involve groups of companies that operate on both sides of the border. We believe that it will be more efficient in time and money if the same winding-up rules, other than where Scottish common law requires something else, are applied to each insolvent company in the group.
These amendments will make reorganisations more efficient and increase returns to creditors and shareholders. Group reorganisations may involve subsidiaries being wound up, and a common approach to winding-up rules should help to reduce the cost and complexity of group restructurings whose constituent companies operate both in Scotland and in England and Wales.
Indeed, in its evidence to the Calman commission, the Institute of Chartered Accountants of Scotland, which regulates most of the insolvency office-holders working in Scotland, highlighted the benefit of consistent rules in promoting a more stable environment for corporate recovery and turnaround. Further, the Law Society of Scotland reported in its evidence to the commission that, because of the increased number of insolvencies of groups of companies, practitioners have for a number of years been having difficulties where parts of the group are subject to the rules for England and Wales and parts to the Scottish rules. The Calman commission was persuaded that there should be a consistent approach to winding-up rules, and the UK Government agree with that position.
The commission recognised that its first option for implementing its recommendation that the UK Insolvency Service, with appropriate input from the relevant departments of the Scottish Government, should be made responsible for laying down insolvency rules for England and Wales and Scotland might not be achievable for technical reasons. It therefore acknowledged that the devolution settlement might need to be amended to secure the desired effect.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble and learned Lord for his comprehensive response. I had hoped that he would lay out clearly why the Government have chosen to go beyond the Calman recommendations, which he has done, and I found his arguments persuasive.
“The reference to any profession regulated by the Regulation of Care (Scotland) Act 2001 includes—
(a) any profession regulated by that Act by virtue of any subordinate legislation (whenever made) which is or could be made under the Act, and(b) any profession regulated by any Act of the Scottish Parliament so far as it re-enacts that Act (including any profession regulated by virtue of subordinate legislation under any such Act);and the references to that Act are to that Act as it has effect on the date on which this paragraph comes into force.””
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, this amendment is minor and technical in nature and has been laid following work undertaken with the Scottish Government to clarify the scope of Clause 13. The United Kingdom’s intended policy remains unchanged; we have always said that while we intend to re-reserve the regulation of health professions to Westminster, the regulation of social care professions should remain a devolved matter within the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament. Likewise, the Scottish Government’s position on Clause 13 remains unchanged. They remain opposed in principle to the re-reservation of the regulation of health professions.
To give some background, health profession regulation is currently reserved by reference to specific Acts of Parliament, all of which were obviously in place when the 1998 legislation went through. Other health professions have been subject to regulation under subsequent statutes. Under the architecture of the 1998 Act they would not have been caught up in this. A considerable number of bodies made representations to the Calman commission that this was an unsatisfactory position, which is what we sought to address.
Despite the differing policy positions of the United Kingdom and Scottish Governments on the clause generally, this amendment clarifies the intent behind the clause and is an example of where we have listened to the technical concerns, which the Scottish Government have raised, and have sought to act on them. The Scottish Government’s concern was that, as originally drafted, Clause 13 might have an unintended consequence for the social care professions that might in the future become regulated by the Scottish Parliament under the Regulation of Care (Scotland) Act 2001 or a successor Act. The concern was that the regulation of these new social care professions would fall within the scope of the new re-reservation, which is not the United Kingdom Government’s intention.
This minor and technical amendment makes it explicit that regulation of the social care professions is, and will remain, a matter that is devolved to Scotland. I hope that that clarifies this amendment. I beg to move.
Lord Boyd of Duncansby
My Lords, we welcome the clarification that this amendment gives to this clause. It was never the Calman commission’s intention that the regulation of residential care workers should be reserved as opposed to health professionals. Perhaps I may add to the background. The Calman commission received evidence from the royal colleges, which are concerned at the possible fragmentation of standards as a result of the Scottish Parliament on the one hand and the UK Parliament on the other having responsibility for the regulation of health professionals. Common standards for health professionals are of evident benefit to the UK as a whole, and the Government’s implementation of this recommendation is to be welcomed.
On a final point, the re-reservation of powers to the UK Parliament in this case is a signal that devolution is about finding the right balance between the powers that sit with the UK Parliament and those that sit properly with the Scottish Parliament. It is important that we get a system that works well not only for the people of Scotland but for the people of the UK as a whole.
The Duke of Montrose
My Lords, in opening this debate on what is presently something of a probing Motion, I want just to draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that this and the two previous amendments have broached the subject of Westminster reserving powers that were originally part of the general devolution under the Scotland Act. This is certainly an area to which the original convention on legislative consent Motions applies. Not unexpectedly, this has caused a few ripples at Holyrood because it was beginning to look like there was something of a precedent that devolution could go only one way, and that was for it to be increased. The power being proposed is an implicit rather than an explicit power that is to remain with Westminster. There may of course be other powers in the 1998 Act that have yet to be explored, but in these proposals it is now obvious to everyone that new reservations are possible. At the same time, we need to be sure that what is being proposed is totally necessary. I wish to be sure that the Government have given enough thought to its implications.
The question of Antarctica is particularly interesting because one Scotland Bill committee of the Scottish Parliament felt that it could agree to this being included in the Bill, but the next committee came out and said that it would not agree. We still await the final outcome. Another reason for visiting Antarctica in our discussions is that 15 days ago it was the 100th anniversary of the arrival of a certain Captain Scott at the South Pole, and we want to pay tribute to him and to his colleagues on their efforts and their role in the influence that we have in that part of the world.
On a slightly lighter note, I should declare my interest in Antarctica, although it is not pecuniary in any way. As the chief of Clan Graham, I follow eagerly the influence of Grahams. We have Graham Streets, Graham’s Dyke and Grahamstown, but Antarctica is the only place in the world with territory known as Graham Land. Unfortunately, it was not named for an achievement on the part of any Graham himself, but is the result of the commissioning in 1832 by Sir James Graham, then the First Lord of the Admiralty, of an expedition led by John Biscoe.
Neither the United Kingdom nor Scotland would pretend that there was any territorial claim involved, but we are really dealing with a power of governance and administration. I note in passing that there has been a consultation on a new Antarctic Bill that ended on 12 February 2010 but which does not seem to have produced any follow-up. Perhaps it has fallen foul of the uncertainty about the various devolution proposals. Can my noble and learned friend the Minister tell us what interest the Scottish Government showed in the consultation, and does it appear that this is a power that the Scottish Parliament has ignored? In the first instance, it might appear to centre on the right to license expeditions and scientific research in the area. I would suggest that my noble friend Lord Forsyth knows a little more about this, having recently completed an expedition there.
British Antarctica covers a large area, being the area of ocean and land south of 60 degrees south latitude of the whole Antarctic area. I think that noble Lords will agree that there are great pressures currently facing the Scottish fishing industry with the endless red tape and restrictions under the revised common fisheries policy. When driven to it, fishermen might consider turning their attention to just such an area, where there is a potential commercial fishery for the Patagonian toothfish. There are of course other interests that might wish to expand their activities in Antarctica.
Of course, what we have heard is that the Scottish Parliament has not got around to discussing its committee’s recommendations, and unless the Minister can enlighten us, we do not know whether the Scottish Government consider that they have any interest in their current power in the area. A factor on which I am tempted to speculate is that their interest might be dampened by the consideration that, if they were required to act in the administration of the area, their current plans for a defence capability, the scope of which is supposed to be based on that of some of our Scandinavian neighbours, might require a good deal of re-estimation. I understand that they may be thinking of having an army of which 60 per cent would have the capability of being deployed in other parts of the world, but if their navy is limited to a few frigates and a variety of smaller boats with no submarines, there would not be much capability outside Scottish waters. A great attraction for the young used to be, “Join the British Navy and see the world”, but I suggest that that might become “Join the Scottish Navy and see St Kilda”. It might be a little speculative to think that, in considering this, the Scottish National Party sees that having a responsibility for this area might stretch what it has in mind in terms of providing fisheries protection or some other role, and there is no way that the type of defence equipment that Scotland is likely to have could be stretched in this field.
In spite of this sort of speculation, does my noble and learned friend know of any good reason why Scotland’s influence should be excluded from its possible responsibilities in this area?
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, I welcome this clause, and indeed when discussing the Scotland Bill offstage with my noble friend, he has tried to persuade me that it is a great Bill because it would bring back control of Antarctica to the Westminster Government, although “control of Antarctica” is perhaps putting it too strongly. Of course, another week has gone by and the Scottish Parliament has still not debated the report of its own committee, which suggests that legislative consent should not be given to this clause. So as my noble friend the Duke of Montrose has pointed out, it is difficult to surmise why the committee might now wish to retain responsibilities in respect of Antarctica, and the previous committee quite sensibly took the view that Antarctica should be a matter for the Westminster Government and the Foreign Office. As far as I know, Donald Trump has no plans to build a leisure facility in Antarctica, so I cannot imagine why the First Minister would think that his writ should run to Antarctica.
As my noble friend indicated, I had the pleasure of going to Antarctica a year ago, and it really is a spiritual experience. It is quite amazing. It is the only part of the planet that is completely unspoiled and the only example of an international treaty that I can think of which has actually worked. I think that that treaty is now up for renegotiation and renewal and it is absolutely clear that this clause is required because it should be obvious to everyone involved in those negotiations what the British interest is. I hope that the British interest will rest with ensuring that Antarctica remains a place where scientific endeavour and experiment can be carried out and which is protected from exploitation.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, the noble Lord is being far too modest in saying that he went on an expedition to Antarctica. He climbed Mount Vinson, the highest mountain there, and he sent many of us dispatches which we received with great interest. He also raised hundreds of thousands of pounds for charity, and I think he should be commended for all of that.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I am most grateful to the noble Lord. I think that he and I need to be careful because we will soon be appearing in the nat blogs as an example of an unholy alliance. I have suggested to my noble friend that we should form a roadshow and go around Scotland extolling the virtues of the union. The only other explanation I could think of for why the Scottish Government are now pressing for some control over Antarctica is that perhaps they think it might be a good idea to pass regulations keeping me there on ice for the winter in order to avoid open debate. I am most grateful to the noble Lord, and I thank him for the cheque he sent towards the fund for Marie Curie Cancer Care.
I support this clause because it is entirely sensible. I suspect that it was an oversight because there is a very serious job to be done. While I was in Antarctica I met some scientists who were drilling holes in order to measure movement in the ice-cap, but one of the problems they faced was that they kept on hitting gas and oil. There are considerable mineral resources in Antarctica and I hope that they will stay there for a long time so that Antarctica is preserved. I hope that the British Government will take very seriously their responsibilities in this regard.
My noble friend the Duke of Montrose also mentioned the Scott expedition and the centenary of Scott’s arrival at the South Pole—only to discover that Amundsen had beaten him there. We all celebrate the courage that Scott and his party showed in their disastrous attempt to get back to safety from the South Pole.
So I welcome the clause. Of all the clauses in the Bill, it is the one that I can endorse with most enthusiasm. I am most grateful to my noble friend for ensuring that the interests of Antarctica are in good hands.
The Earl of Mar and Kellie
My Lords, does the clause in any way inhibit Scottish universities’ polar research? My noble friend has been to the Antarctic. In 1902, William Speirs Bruce led the Scottish national Antarctic expedition in the steam yacht, “Scotia”, its research ship. The “Discovery” was built in Dundee. Speirs Bruce also explored the Arctic, and one can still find the remains of Brucehaven in Spitsbergen. Perhaps I may ask a question that is vaguely similar to one asked by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. Are we trying to prevent Scots universities exploring or researching in Antarctica but not in the Arctic?
Lord Boyd of Duncansby
My Lords, we support the inclusion of the clause, which seems sensible. Antarctica is obviously an important international resource. It is regulated by a treaty which, as we have heard, is now up for renewal, and it is clearly important that environmental protections are put in place to preserve Antarctica as a pristine part of the planet. Perhaps I should declare an interest as having acted for Donald Trump in a certain planning inquiry, but I assure noble Lords that there is no connection between my supporting this clause and Mr Trump.
As a Scottish Minister, I was not aware that we had any responsibility for Antarctica. I see my noble friend Lord McConnell nodding, so I do not think that he was aware of his responsibility. Clearly, that was a dereliction of duty.
Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale
My Lords, I can confirm that I was aware of my responsibilities as First Minister of Scotland, but I can also confirm in response to the noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, that at no time in the five-and-a-half years that I served as First Minister of Scotland was I ever asked a parliamentary question on this subject, was a parliamentary debate on it ever suggested or, for that matter, did we ever receive any correspondence on it.
Lord Boyd of Duncansby
The question that I was going to pose was why we did not extend the ban on smoking in public places to Antarctica. Clearly, that was an oversight on our part. We could also have extended the scheme for insulation of older persons’ homes, which was one of the then Scottish Executive’s schemes. Of course, we are now spared the question as to whether the referendum on independence should also extend to Antarctica. The noble Duke, the Duke of Montrose, has pointed out that if independence was ever to come, the First Minister would not have to consider whether to expand his navy by adding an ice-breaker to it. We fully support the clause.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend the Duke of Montrose for giving us the opportunity to discuss this matter and to all those who have welcomed this clause. I join my noble friends the Duke of Montrose and Lord Forsyth in saluting Captain Scott and his four fellow adventurers who on 17 January 1912 reached the South Pole. We are all conscious that theirs was a long struggle that ended very sadly, but, nevertheless, 100 years on, we remember the extraordinary feat of those explorers. I also join those who have paid tribute to and saluted my noble friend Lord Forsyth for climbing Mount Vinson last year. We all remember getting the reports and his managing to raise substantial funds both for Marie Curie Cancer Care and Children in Need India.
If the former First Minister knew that he had responsibilities for Antarctica, it is clear that he was not advised on it by his senior law officer, and he certainly did not share the fact with his Deputy First Minister.
My noble friend the Duke of Montrose asked about the draft Antarctic Bill. It was in the context of preparing for that draft Bill that it became apparent that, while outer space had been reserved, Antarctica had not. No doubt the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, will tell us why that was the case.
Lord Sewel
Does the Minister agree that it is a disgrace that, because of the incompetence of Ministers in 1998, we have had to re-reserve Antarctica, which is now finishing up where it belongs?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
It was oversight, I suspect, but it is important that we now address it. Following completion of the consultation, the Antarctic Bill is drafted subject to minor amendments and is awaiting parliamentary time. There would have been a clause in that Bill seeking to resolve the devolution issues, but, as this Bill is now before Parliament, we thought that it was more appropriate to deal with it here.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
Will the Minister confirm that South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands are not included in the definition of Antarctica?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I hesitate, because I recall seeing a definition of Antarctica as being all seas and islands below 60 degrees south. I was assigned to an Antarctic Bill in the House of Commons because I represented islands north of 60 degrees north, which seemed to be interesting logic. I think that, because South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands are British Overseas Territories, they are not included in the definition—perhaps I will receive some clarification on that.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
As I understand it, the Falklands are a dependent territory of the United Kingdom and the South Sandwich Islands and South Georgia are dependencies of the Falklands. I presume that they are not included because of that. That is important given recent statements in Argentina and the importance of those two island groups as well as the Falklands.
Lord Lyell
Perhaps I may make my first intervention—I am sure that the Minister will be delighted. I have an interest very similar to that of my noble friend the Duke of Montrose in that in the first week, even before events gravitated to the Falkland Islands, great events took place on the island of South Georgia. In the communications with the Royal Marines and the forces there, there was considerable discussion about the Lyell Glacier, named, definitely, after my great-great-great uncle, one of the fathers of modern geology. As far as I am aware, there is no mineral wealth under the Lyell Glacier or anything that I or anybody in Scotland would be able to claim, but the charts and accounts will give us some assistance. It would be very helpful if my noble friend Minister could give us clarification as to what is classified as “Antarctica” for the purposes of the Bill.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, for the purposes of the Antarctic Act 1994, which was to implement our international obligations, “Antarctica” means,
“the continent of Antarctica (including all its ice-shelves) … all islands south of 60° South latitude (including all their ice-shelves)”—
so I do remember something from 18 years ago—
“all areas of continental shelf which are adjacent to that continent or those islands and which are south of 60° South latitude, and … all sea and airspace south of 60° South latitude”.
The important point is that these are the areas to which the international obligations, many of which are of an environmental nature, apply. As I have indicated, that became apparent in considering the draft Antarctic Bill.
The Duke of Montrose
My Lords, I thank all those who have contributed to this discussion. It has been some time since Antarctica has been before your Lordships' House and covered in so much detail. It is particularly interesting to hear former Scottish Ministers voicing what the perspective was when they were holding office north of the border. I am glad to think that my noble and learned friend did not think that the Scottish Parliament would be less assiduous in maintaining the pristine nature of Antarctica because I am sure that they will have looked at that with great care.
People Trafficking
(12 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Eames
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of the trafficking of adults and children into and within the United Kingdom.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, I remind your Lordships that this is a timed debate and a lot of speakers are down to speak. With the exception of the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, and my noble friend Lord Attlee, all speeches are limited to two minutes. As your Lordships know, I have a responsibility to everyone who wants to speak so I ask noble Lords to keep to time. If anyone is still speaking after the clock strikes two it will be necessary for me to intervene so that we can be in Committee again at 2.33 pm.
Lord Eames
My Lords, my purpose in introducing this short debate in your Lordships' House is to rectify something that, in normal circumstances, is quite understandable. Spasmodically, our attention is drawn to cases involving human trafficking but the media centres on individual cases. With our preoccupation with such crimes and issues as drug trafficking, we are inclined at times to forget the constant nature of this trafficking disease affecting men, women and little children.
Slavery was abolished in this very House 200 years ago; a fact for which we can be justly proud and grateful. But the harsh reality as we meet is that slavery under different headings has grown 10 times in size and complexity since 1807. No longer is human slavery visible, acceptable and legal as it was in Wilberforce's time. Today it is invisible, hidden and so hard to detect. According to the United Nations, it is the second largest criminal activity in the world after drug smuggling, netting $36 billion annually to traffickers.
Statistics highlight the scale in the United Kingdom with people from 40 different countries arriving here in the past six months. Yet that is only the tip of the iceberg as only a small percentage of those trafficked are in fact referred to the national referral mechanism which keeps these figures, a procedure that is run by the Immigration Service. This determines whether victims can remain legally in the UK for the permitted 45-day reflection period.
The Government established the UK Border Agency to give clearer control over, among other things, trafficking through our airports and ports. Despite this, we continue to read in the press of trafficked women incarcerated in brothels, of young boys forcibly brought here from Vietnam to work in such places as cannabis farms, of men brought in as victims of debt bondage and turning up in East Anglia, of internal trafficking of men in Bedfordshire, or of Taiwanese fishermen ending up as victims of trafficking on trawlers off the Irish coast. Then there are children, just like Fagin's children, being caught pickpocketing, shoplifting or stealing from ATMs, earning thousands of pounds each year for the traffickers. These are only some of the tragic human tragedies being played out in our own country even as we debate this issue.
The right honourable Prime Minister has stated on many occasions that his Government will be tough on traffickers and compassionate towards victims. He said just that in Downing Street last October to mark Anti-Slavery Day. I do not doubt the good intentions of the Government in this regard, but I fear that much remains to be done if we are to be freed of modern-day slavery.
Let me make some suggestions to the noble Earl who will respond to this debate. In doing so, I thank him for the concern that he has shown in my preparation for this discussion. First, can the Prime Minister give the lead in better co-ordinating the seven major government departments that share responsibility for different aspects of anti-slavery policy? An interdepartmental ministerial group used to meet monthly, but in the past 18 months it has met twice only. What message does that send out of a Government really taking slavery seriously? Surely greater co-operation and co-ordination are essential at that level.
Secondly, 2012 is surely a wonderful opportunity to use the advent of the Olympic Games to make a monumental effort in the spirit of the Games to make another attempt at ending slavery within our shores in the United Kingdom.
Traffickers are astute, sophisticated and ruthless. They use the most advanced technology, and their networks spread beyond frontiers. Pickpocketing and ATM thefts by Roma gangs in Westminster can overnight be moved to another part of Europe. Sex slaves destined for the United Kingdom can be redirected to the Gulf states. The use of forged passports, fictitious uncles accompanying equally fictitious nephews and nieces, and the use of different routes—particularly in our own case the United Kingdom border with the Republic of Ireland—involving road, rail, air and sea all mean that traffickers will continue to find gaps in the border and the entry points.
Are the Government satisfied with the levels of identity checks at our points of entry, particularly in relation to the so-called domestic—yet international—flights from the Republic of Ireland? Then there are the numbers of child asylum seekers who arrive on our doorstep every year, many without passports, which have been destroyed in transit on planes or even eaten and digested on lorries and trains prior to arrival. A report by the Children’s Commissioner for England has recently drawn our attention to the urgent needs in this respect. Aftercare of victims in this country raises serious questions. What is being done about those children who disappear from refuge institutions and homes? Between 2007 and February 2010, 942 children trafficked into the United Kingdom were rescued; but no less than 301 went missing from so-called safe homes. Is this nothing less than a disgrace?
Under the previous Administration, the Pentameter 1 strategy was introduced, whereby each police force was required to give greater priority to combating trafficking. What has happened since? The number of successful prosecutions in the UK is low, even compared to no less a country than Romania, where over 500 traffickers are in jail. The detection and prosecution of traffickers must be intelligence-led. Surely greater priority must be given to this issue—such as that evident in the Police Service of Northern Ireland and, here, in the Metropolitan Police.
NGOs are very active in the aftercare of victims, but I believe from what I have learnt that there is a need for greater co-operation and sharing between many of those NGOs. It was encouraging that the present Government agreed to sign up to the EU directive, but this does not have to be implemented until 2012. The government strategy document published last July has made little progress with its implementation.
Finally, I want to pay tribute to Anthony Steen, the former MP, for establishing the most effective all-party parliamentary group, of which my colleague in this House, the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, is joint chairman.
With the time available, it has only been possible to scale the tip of this iceberg. However, I hope that by debating it even for this short time, we will do something to keep this human tragedy before our attention.
Lord McColl of Dulwich
My Lords, on 12 January, the Government announced that they were making the UK compliant with the European human trafficking directive by introducing two amendments via the Protection of Freedoms Bill. I warmly welcomed this, but although I fully appreciate that Britain was already compliant with much of the directive even before we chose to opt in, I was struggling to see how all the remaining areas of non-compliance could be addressed by secondary legislation. I asked the Minister whether he would write to me, setting out all the planned secondary legislative changes to make us fully compliant. I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Henley for the very detailed letter that he sent me yesterday.
I am pleased that the Government are looking at how they can make victims automatically eligible for special measures to ensure they are supported and protected during criminal proceedings against traffickers. I am also pleased that they are considering whether the need for effective investigative tools needs to be transposed into legislation and whether more is required beyond the national referral mechanism on assistance and support for victims.
However, I am still disappointed by the Government’s position on the lack of civil legal aid for trafficking victims to claim compensation, other than through the exceptional funding route. It seems that by signing up to the directive, the UK has, by definition, committed to funding legal aid for trafficking victims as part of the routine victim assistance and support, not as something exceptional. Having said all this, I stress that my horizon is not defined by the directive. I want to see the UK regarded as a beacon of good practice in this area, not as simply doing the minimum to toe the line. Thus, I could not agree to the suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Henley, when responding to the Second Reading of my Bill, that those aspects of it that were not required by the directive could be dispensed with, as if its ambitions were defined by the directive. To that end, I very much look forward next week to moving my child trafficking amendment to the Protection of Freedoms Bill, generously supported by co-signatories from all sides of the House. I also look forward to the Committee stage of my Bill.
Baroness Massey of Darwen
My Lords, I wish to thank the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, for instigating this very important short debate. I shall focus on child trafficking, possibly the most horrendous form of this evil, as children are so vulnerable to abuse and to legal ramifications that are too puzzling for them to follow. That is why they need help, support and advocacy.
Along with the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, I ask the Minister about the co-ordination of services at a national and local level. Children are clearly slipping through nets and many do not get the support they need. The very useful ECPAT booklet, Top Ten Questions on Child Trafficking, sets out very clearly many of those problems. A report from CARE argues, as does ECPAT, that although there is an inter-departmental ministerial group on trafficking, what is needed is an independent monitor, or a national rapporteur, who would assess policy and practice. We have no systematic collection and analysis of data. I believe that the Netherlands and Finland do have rapporteurs and that this has facilitated better analysis and reporting.
I know that there is good practice at a local level. I hope that it is being shared. I will give two brief examples. The Community Partnership Project was set up in 2006 by the London Safeguarding Children Board to improve the safeguarding of children through collaboration between statutory services and communities and faith groups in eight boroughs. One issue was child trafficking, and the board has been very successful in engaging those groups. One recommendation is that partnership with local communities and faith groups should be maintained across London. Such an initiative would surely be effective in other areas of the country.
The same safeguarding board has produced a best practice multi-agency toolkit, bringing together council services and the police. Is anyone collecting and disseminating all the examples of good practice? I return to my concerns that we need systems to deal with child trafficking that are co-ordinated across agencies, and that the Government must provide a strong and sympathetic lead. I submit that a national rapporteur and child advocates for children would be a great help, and that we ought to take account of this debate today.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
My Lords, as the co-chairman of the parliamentary group on trafficking and a trustee of the Human Trafficking Foundation, I am also delighted that the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, has introduced this debate. I also congratulate the Government on opting into the European Union directive and on their excellent strategy policy. I do not doubt the commitment of the Prime Minister and the Government to working to combat the evil of human trafficking, but the issue—as the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, has already said—is a question of implementation. Following the noble Baroness, Lady Massey, I will also focus on one requirement of the directive—the national rapporteur.
A central requirement of the directive is to have a place where information from different sources and actors is systematically gathered and analysed, to be provided by a national rapporteur or equivalent mechanism. The requirements include the collection of data; independent status; a clear mandate to have access to all involved agencies, including law enforcement; and competency to report directly to the Government and/or Parliament. In this country, the agencies include the NRM process, which does not take in all victims, so its statistics are incomplete; the human trafficking centre at Birmingham, which has incomplete statistics; the police, who are involved mainly through SOCA, and there will be the National Crime Agency; the UKBA and, in due course, the UK Border Police; the Salvation Army, which has a contract to help adult victims; and local authority social services, which help child victims, but there are no accurate statistics on how many missing children are actually trafficked.
There are, of course, a considerable number of dedicated NGOs filling many gaps, but there is no data collection and analysis agency independent of government. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, has already referred to the inadequacy of the Inter-Departmental Ministerial Group, but I would like to add to the two meetings to which he referred. In February, five Ministers attended, with nine apologies; in October, six Ministers attended, with 11 apologies. That is not compliance with the directive, or indeed an adequate equivalent mechanism. If we are to be seen as in the vanguard of fighting effectively the horrors of trafficked adults and children and denying to traffickers some part of the huge financial rewards of their appalling trade, the obvious answer is a national rapporteur.
The Lord Bishop of Derby
My Lords, in a short time I just want to give a couple of headlines from the grass roots, where I work in this area with people in Derbyshire. First, I want to underline the point made by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, about the scale of this. My contacts in the police force in Derbyshire assure me that the scale is much greater than anything that is admitted on the surface in the strategy, so there is a real question about how we are going to resource the strategy that is on the table if there is much greater need than has been identified. Even in Derbyshire, even last week, young women from eastern Europe have been rescued from a small market town where people are being trafficked by international gangs. Very young Chinese girls have been rescued from brothels. People in the city of Derby tell me that at the local sexual health clinics the number of young women in the trafficking scheme who are under 18 is increasing dramatically. The scale is a really big issue.
With increasing demand, there is the problem of making a proper response. In Derby we have Safe & Sound, which is an excellent organisation working with many people being trafficked. The local authority has just removed two people who have been seconded to them, because of the cuts, and it also asks how the police are going to fulfil their role when cuts are being made in police resourcing.
My final point is that we need to see this very much as a moral issue. My contacts in the police force are horrified to see human beings treated by commodities—just being sold. That is a gross moral issue, not just about supply but about demand. There is obviously enormous demand to take advantage of sexual exploitation. What does that say about moral standards and understanding of sexuality in our society? What does it say about a lack of discipline and taking other people seriously as human beings? I ask the Minister that if we withdraw RE from such a central role in schools, who but the great religions is going to provide any moral framework to give people guidance about sexual behaviour in our society?
Baroness Jenkin of Kennington
My Lords, I too congratulate and thank the noble and right reverend Lord on and for securing the debate. Trafficking of adults and children, as is clear from the debate so far, is a really important issue that we must address. I commend the Government for the action that they have taken in fighting against human trafficking this far. In particular, I wish to mention three key steps that they have taken to address modern-day slavery. First, the release of Human Trafficking: The Government's Strategy in July 2011 was an encouraging move in setting out the Government's plan of action to tackle this trafficking. Secondly, the Government have introduced primary legislation to bring about compliance with the European directive on human trafficking through amendments to the Protection of Freedoms Bill, currently on Report. This action is most encouraging. Thirdly, as the letter to my noble friend Lord McColl demonstrates, the Government are actively considering how to make changes to secondary legislation to complete the process of meeting the directive's requirements. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Henley, for his commitment to the fulfilment of the directive in bringing forward these legislative measures.
Although these achievements should be rightly celebrated, there is obviously still much more to be done. While I recognise that there is no need to introduce a system of guardianship for trafficked children or an independent national rapporteur in implementing the directive, I hope that the Government will not dismiss any opportunity to improve our care for victims in these areas so that Britain can lead the way. It is in fact appropriate that we find ourselves discussing this issue today as, only yesterday, the BBC reported the plight of British men who are trafficked out of the UK and forced to work as slaves on construction sites throughout Europe. At least 30 victims have been identified to date, but it is believed that that number is just the tip of the iceberg. I know that you will agree that stories such as these ought to spur us into swift action to address these awful human rights abuses.
I close by saying that I look forward to supporting the Government as new laws are introduced that will further protect all individuals who are subject to this violent injustice.
Lord Anderson of Swansea
My Lords, I welcome the Government’s response to the Bill proposed by the noble Lord, Lord McColl, and their plans to bring the UK into full compliance with the EU directive.
I make three quick points. First, I urge the Government to continue to facilitate the involvement of the voluntary sector in the care of trafficked victims, particularly children, and to look at the practice in Wales following the guidance issued last year, in addition to looking at the introduction of an anti-human trafficking tsar in England, as already happens in Wales. Perhaps that is the national rapporteur. Secondly, I urge the Government to respond positively to the recommendation in last month’s report of the Children’s Commissioner for England, Landing in Dover, on the opportunity for trafficked children to instruct a legal representative, which is in the same spirit of Amendment 57 to the Protection of Freedoms Bill, which the noble Lord, Lord McColl, seeks to move next Monday. I hope that the Government will respond positively to that.
Finally, as a Member of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe, I understand that the Government will shortly receive the draft GRETA report on the UK’s conduct with respect to the Council of Europe convention on trafficking. Will interested Members of this House be able to have sight of that draft report and an opportunity to comment? As the current chairman of the Council of Europe, we in the UK surely have the opportunity to be a model and show leadership in this area of great social concern.
Baroness Doocey
My Lords, I want to concentrate on the children who are trafficked into the UK. One key problem is the points of entry. Children as young as 12 may travel unaccompanied from France and Belgium via Eurostar, provided that they have a form signed by a parent or guardian, listing who will be collecting them when they reach St Pancras. The problem is that there are no checks at all on who signs the forms, no facilities on the trains—the children are not supervised—and no controls when they arrive at St Pancras, so the entire process is completely and utterly meaningless.
I call on the Government to do three things which would not cost much money at all but could make a very big difference. First, we could ensure that border staff check the identity of the parents or guardians before allowing unaccompanied children to board the Eurostar. This could easily be done by making it a requirement for parents to turn up with their passport and/or with proof of guardianship. Secondly, we should persuade Eurostar to provide a dedicated space in one of their carriages for unaccompanied children, and for this to be supervised throughout the journey. Finally, we should ensure that a small room is provided at St Pancras International where children can wait to be collected by a nominated person, who must also produce their passport to prove their identity.
If these three simple measures were put in place, it would go a long way to alleviating the suffering of many of these unfortunate victims of child trafficking.
Lord Bew
My Lords, I, too, thank my noble and right reverend friend Lord Eames for securing this debate. As he made clear in his remarks, this problem has a long-term historical and international context, something that anybody can read in the more grim passages in Dostoevsky's Notes from Underground, published in 1864. My noble and right reverend friend also referred to the Irish context, which, as he made clear, is also important to the United Kingdom. I would like to follow in that spirit. Just this week the Italian judge Maria Grazia Giammarinaro, who is the OSCE special representative on human trafficking, referred to what she called a new trend involving Ireland: the trafficking of people from Bangladesh and Pakistan for labour exploitation, particularly in agriculture, construction, hotels and restaurants. Given the porous nature of the border within Ireland we have to bear these things in mind, as my noble and right reverend friend has already indicated.
I want to say two very specific things about the Irish context. Thanks very much to some excellent journalism by writers such as Henry McDonald of the Guardian, there is a good public opinion on these questions but I have one technical question for the Minister. Will the Minister confirm that after the government amendments on human trafficking to the Protection of Freedoms Bill, Sections 57 to 60 of the Sexual Offences Act remain unchanged in relation to the provision for human trafficking in Northern Ireland, and that these will be in place until the Northern Ireland Assembly introduce their own provisions on human trafficking for sexual exploitation? I am worried—I hope it is a false worry—that we may have created a gap by the recent benign move that the Government have made.
Lord Rogan
My Lords, I, too, congratulate the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, on initiating this debate. As he said, our nation can rightly take pride in its pivotal role in abolishing the worldwide slavery trade during the 19th century—a decision taken primarily with regard to the force of the moral imperative to do so. Yet it saddens me that the modern guise of slavery, human trafficking, is on the rise in this country and across Europe. Human trafficking is a vile and foul crime that condemns its victims to the most base and inhumane of treatments, be they men, women or children.
We are all aware of stories from across the kingdom of trafficked people being subjected to abuse of a kind we thought we had largely dispelled from the civilised world. In Northern Ireland, which is hardly a mainstream location for international criminal gangs, the police have rescued around 75 victims since 2009, many connected to the sex trade. As a senior PSNI detective superintendent told the Northern Ireland Policing Board last December, this figure is just the “tip of the iceberg”. There is a need for the United Kingdom to take controlled and concentrated measures to intercept those gangs, both from home and overseas, who are trading in this human misery to supply demands for cheap labour and—
Lord Rogan
Can I start again at two minutes? While tackling this supply may require greater resourcing for the UK Border Agency and the police forces throughout the kingdom, tackling demand is a more difficult issue. It strikes me that we need to do more to drive home the message that those who are abusing trafficked people, particularly in the sex trade, need to be aware that they are complicit in an offence which is akin to slavery. They should face severe consequences for their actions but unfortunately, for too many, this is currently a crime without fear of consequences. That needs to end.
For instance, customers who pay for sex with those who have been trafficked—people who are clearly under duress or false pretences—should face the prospect of being charged with rape. As the law stands, successful convictions would be difficult to secure but it would certainly help put out a clear message that society will not turn a blind eye to this problem. The same moral imperative which lay before Parliament to eradicate slavery in the 19th century lies before this generation: to do all that it can to eradicate human trafficking in this world.
Lord Sheikh
My Lords, I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate as I have a long-standing interest in human trafficking. Some 200 years since the abolition of slavery, it is depressing that there is a continuing need to confront this evil. I very much appreciate the efforts made by the Government to address this problem, and I support the human trafficking strategy launched last July. The strategy focused on raising awareness of trafficking and ensuring victims are safeguarded and protected. We need to redouble our efforts to help victims: this needs a local, as well as a national, focus. I commend the work of local anti-trafficking groups. We cannot hope to overcome this crime unless we are successful in raising the profile among communities.
I wish to speak about the effects of trafficking on children and young people who are its victims. In doing so, I congratulate Professor Jenny Pearce of the University of Bedfordshire and the ongoing commitment of the NSPCC. Professor Pearce's research highlights considerable variations in practitioners’ understanding of the meaning of trafficking and problems with the delivery of child-centred practice. Trafficked young people are especially vulnerable, and I welcome the guidance relating to child trafficking issued last October. Those responsible for their welfare, as well as those tasked with law enforcement, need to be equipped to respond fully to their specific, individual needs. We need a system whereby there is adequate signposting to national agencies and professionals providing appropriate support. We must ensure that vulnerable children are protected. Their safety and welfare ought to be prioritised. I look forward to the Minister’s response about what more we can do.
Baroness Goudie
My Lords, I congratulate the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, on arranging to have this short debate. As short as it is, it is very important to raise the profile of human trafficking. I declare that I am a pro bono member of the Vital Voices Global Partnership board, and chairman of the Women Leaders’ Council of the United Nations. I congratulate this and the previous Government on what they have done in taking the lead on human trafficking globally but today, in the few minutes that I have, I will concentrate on the question of forced labour. That is now becoming a huge issue in this country in the agricultural trade, in the diplomatic service and in the building and construction industry.
I ask the Government and the Minister to consider looking at the Athens protocol, which was agreed two years ago, and setting up a government inquiry, like the Davies report, to persuade companies to sign up to the Athens ethical agreement. This would mean that companies would look at the source of their goods and the source of their labour. If this was signed up to and the BIS department was involved in this, we could help to eradicate the question of forced labour in the whole of the United Kingdom. This is an area where we have very few prosecutions—and where we have them, they are not very large. There are sometimes very small fines. We also have to remember that no trafficked person lives a very long life and that this is a cash industry. That is why the Government now have to take a longer stand on forced labour, in particular, as I said, in the agricultural trade, in diplomacy and in the building trade.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, the number of speakers today may reflect an increasing awareness of trafficking and modern slavery. I have heard it said that that awareness is somewhere like where domestic violence was 20 years ago. I stress that because awareness must be the foundation of tackling the issue. It was only when I was in the middle of one of my own speeches at a conference that I realised that children whom one often used to see at major road junctions in London advancing with a soapy squeegee were probably themselves slaves.
I mean awareness not just on the part of the general public but right through the many relevant agencies, down to the very front line. It always seems quite difficult that the UK Border Agency, whose job is to protect our borders, which is fairly close to keeping people out, needs to be particularly sensitive to possible victims of trafficking. There is something of a disconnect there.
The sensitivity of all of Government and society must extend to what is needed for the victims to recover. We are the host country, and in many cases the people who are trafficked here think that they are coming to a better life. In some cases the trafficker thinks so, too—the mother living in poverty in Africa who is sending her daughter to live with an auntie in London.
I have one point regarding the care of victims, and I appreciate that there is a new consultation paper on the protection and support of all victims. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, mentioned 45 days, but that may be far too short a time for a traumatised young woman, say, to decide whether she wants to return to her own country. Within 45 days, she may not even have got to the point where she can discuss her own situation.
Trafficking is a huge-scale crime and big business with individuals at its heart, and they need both justice and care. As my pumpkin has not quite arrived, I have time to thank the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, for introducing this debate.
The Earl of Sandwich
My Lords, for nine years I was a council member of Anti-Slavery International. I heard of many cases of slavery in north Africa but there are now cases in the UK and the rest of Europe that show the depths to which our own criminal gangs can sink. We have heard already that British victims have recently been trafficked in Europe by rogue gangs that force them to work for long hours in filthy conditions for little or no payment.
Some 10 or 12 years ago, the Home Office showed that at an absolute minimum there were hundreds of children and women being trafficked; now we are talking of at least tens of thousands. The Government have changed their mind and opted into the new EU trafficking directive, but we have only a year in which to comply. As the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, has just said, the Children’s Society says that child protection is being sacrificed to immigration rules. Will the Minister assure me that the legal framework will be revised for trafficked children to conform to international standards and that these children are not going to be treated as immigrants?
There is no single monitoring body in the UK tasked to look at the scale, nature and trends of human trafficking. I suggest, with Anti-Slavery International and others, including my noble friends, that an independent watchdog responsible to Parliament would be best placed to research and document that abuse. The Government may say that the National Crime Agency will have a key role in building on the existing arrangements once it is established next year, but without an independent monitoring system we cannot be sure how effective and co-ordinated its work will be.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, last month the Government introduced amendments to the Protection of Freedoms Bill to meet some requirements of the recent EU directive on human trafficking. However, they do not yet appear to be addressing the disappearance from the system of child victims of trafficking in this country. Some 32 per cent of identified child victims of trafficking went missing from care between 2007 and early 2010.
Since Articles 12 and 13 of the EU directive state that signatories must provide assistance, support and protection for child victims of trafficking, will the Minister say on what basis, and in the light of what consultations with which organisations, the Government have decided that the UK currently complies with those two articles? What is the Government’s response to calls by charities such as CARE and ECPAT UK for the introduction of a system of guardianship for child victims of trafficking?
The directive requires that the UK establishes a national rapporteur to independently monitor the implementation of the directive. Is it the Government’s intention to give this responsibility to an individual or a committee independent of government in order to ensure both effective oversight of the implementation of government policy on trafficking and accountability?
The Government have indicated that they believe parts of the directive can be implemented in full through secondary legislation and through operational measures and routes. Not everyone will share the Government’s view on that point, but we will wait to see the provisions of any such secondary legislation.
I thank the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, for securing this debate. We welcome the progress that has been made in combating human trafficking, but it is clear that there is still much to do.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I congratulate the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, on securing a debate on this important matter and I thank him for raising it today with his usual skill and measured tone. I broadly accept your Lordships’ analysis of the situation. The Government certainly share the noble and right reverend Lord’s forcefully put view that human trafficking is a horrendous crime that needs to be addressed in a systematic and co-ordinated way. Right at the top of that process is my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, and I can assure noble Lords that she takes this matter very seriously.
As noble Lords have rightly observed, estimating the numbers of adults and children trafficked into and within the UK is difficult owing to the hidden nature of this criminal activity, but through the national referral mechanism we are starting to gain some valuable data about the scale of the problem. We know how many victims are referred. What we do not know is how many trafficking operations were successfully deterred or disrupted by the policies of this Government and the previous Government. However, for those victims we do indentify, our systems are now much more able to support them, according to their individual needs. I do not accept that Ministers underestimate the scale of the problem just because we cannot accurately measure it.
In answer to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby, I agree that this is a moral issue. I am sure that Ministers would still not be happy even if we had reduced the numbers to only 100 people being trafficked. We would not stop until we could get it to almost zero. I assure the House that this Government continue to use all resources at their disposal to identify, prosecute and convict traffickers, often working with other countries to bring the perpetrators of this crime to justice.
The noble Baroness, Lady Goudie, talked about the problem of forced labour within the UK. I can assure her that the Government are well aware of that problem.
We continue to review our approach to trafficking to ensure that we remain one step ahead of those seeking to exploit our borders. My noble friend Lady Jenkin raised the problem of men being trafficked out of the UK to places such as foreign construction sites. I was not personally aware of this but I will discuss it with my officials afterwards.
Free movement between the UK and the Republic of Ireland continues to be of immense importance to the economic, social and cultural well-being of both countries. I can assure noble Lords that the UK and Irish Governments are working in partnership to prevent abuse of the common travel area by strengthening its external border while preserving the right of free movement within it for those who are lawfully present. That is enforced by the UK Border Agency and the police carrying out intelligence-led operations to target the potential abuse of the CTA and to identify those who would otherwise seek to avoid UK controls.
Many noble Lords have expressed concerns about the vulnerability of children seeking to travel on Eurostar. Children and any accompanying adults looking to travel to the UK by Eurostar are routinely interviewed at our juxtaposed controls in France and Belgium. Officers seek to establish the relationship between children and the adults who are accompanying them or meeting them on arrival in the UK before allowing them to leave the juxtaposed border control. If trafficking is suspected, they are immediately reported to the appropriate French or Belgian authorities.
The UK Border Agency closely monitors all trains arriving from Brussels and Lille and carries out detailed checks on passengers where it is suspected that a passenger has evaded the juxtaposed controls. Full ticket controls are routinely mounted at St Pancras, Ebbsfleet and Ashford upon notification of a potential passenger who is seeking to arrive in the UK with a ticket to Lille. To supplement this, multi-agency child safeguarding periodic monitoring exercises advised by Paladin are also conducted at St Pancras. We are currently working closely with our Belgian counterparts and Eurostar to resolve the underlying issues.
My noble friend Lady Doocey raised the problem of unaccompanied children. The travel documentation and letter of consent for all unaccompanied children on Eurostar services are examined by border force officers at the controls. It is important to understand that the form signed by the parent or guardian is not designed to be a reliable check in itself; rather, it is the starting point for any inquiries that might be made by the authorities as they see fit. My noble friend also asked me to give undertakings as regards this being an operational matter for Eurostar. Officers regularly contact the parents or guardians of unaccompanied children to verify the letter of consent for travel to the UK. If there is any cause for concern on the authenticity of the consent of the parent or guardian or about the reception arrangements in the UK, officers will interview the parent or guardian. If doubts persist after all appropriate checks have been undertaken, the UK Border Agency may prevent the child travelling to the UK unaccompanied. For those children who do travel, staff at St Pancras identify unaccompanied children as they disembark and escort them to the concourse to ensure that the sponsor is present and is known to the child.
However, in my capacity as government spokesman for DfT matters in your Lordships' House, I have asked my officials to seek a visit by me to Eurostar at St Pancras. I would expect to include an examination of British Transport Police operations in that visit. I am sure that as a high-profile and responsible operator, Eurostar will be keen to show me first hand how it deals with the problems which my noble friend has identified.
Many noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Massey of Darwen, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, are concerned that we might not be compliant with the EU directive because we do not appear to have a national rapporteur. However, the UK is already compliant with this measure through equivalent mechanisms in the form of the UK Human Trafficking Centre as the central repository for data and the interdepartmental ministerial group for oversight. I believe that this meets the need identified by the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich. This equivalent mechanism is broadly in line with practice among our EU neighbours. We are aware of only two countries within the EU that have an independent national rapporteur on human trafficking—the Netherlands and Finland—and I am not convinced that they each operate in the same way. Several noble Lords have referred to the interdepartmental ministerial group. We recognise the need to work across government and we will consider how to strengthen the group to fulfil the national rapporteur role in the coming months. It is important to understand that the EU directive on national rapporteurs requires a national rapporteur or equivalent mechanism to assess trends in human trafficking and activities on anti-trafficking, and to work with civil society organisations and to report. It does not require the role to be independent.
Responsibility for the care, protection and accommodation of child trafficking victims falls within the designated responsibilities of local authorities for safeguarding and promoting the welfare of all children under the provisions of the 1989 and 2004 Children Acts. To support local authorities, we recently revised practice guidance on safeguarding trafficked children with the Department for Education, which will aid practitioners in identification and safeguarding of child victims of this horrible crime. Once a child is placed in care, a care plan is drawn up by their allocated social worker bringing together a range of information and support. The social worker will assess suitable accommodation, educational support and other services based on need. This care plan is regularly reviewed by an independent reviewing officer to ensure that the child’s needs are being met. This will include stability, safety and emotional well-being. IROs are also able to assist the child in obtaining legal advice. My noble friend Lord McColl of Dulwich talked about his important amendments to the Protection of Freedoms Bill. I am sure that my noble friend Lord Henley is looking forward to responding in due course. New guidance for IROs makes it clear that every child has the right to be supported by an advocate. The advocate must accurately represent the child’s wishes and feelings, irrespective of personal views on the child’s best interests.
Another key area is that of missing trafficked children, a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, among others. Your Lordships should not underestimate the progress the Government have made on this. The first CEOP scoping report on this issue, published in 2007, found a shocking 55 per cent of trafficked children missing from their care placement, but with effective work at a local level to tackle this issue, the most recent CEOP strategic assessment showed that this figure had been reduced to 18 per cent. Local authorities such as Hillingdon, Hertfordshire and Harrow are leading the way with proactive, multi-agency partnerships to identify and safeguard trafficked children from going missing from care. Simple changes to the way they handle, for instance, a child’s access to accommodation front doors, mobile phones and other issues have allowed them to make great progress in reducing the number of children going missing. The national picture is still not good enough but the figures are undeniably heading in the right direction. The new human trafficking strategy commits us to working to raise awareness of these issues locally to ensure in all areas where there is evidence that a child has been trafficked, care planning and activities to support the child must minimise the risk of traffickers reinvolving the child in exploitative activities.
As usual, where I have not been able to respond fully to noble Lords’ substantive points, I will, of course, write. In summary, I can assure the House that this Government will lead the fight with our partners at all levels to ensure that our response to this crime remains an effective deterrent to drive down the number and level of people affected.
Lord Rosser
As the Minister is closing his comments, in the light of what he said about the Government’s determination to fight human trafficking—I am sure that is the case—is it the Government’s view that sentences for human trafficking are appropriate, bearing in mind that the average determinate custodial sentence for drug trafficking appears to be some 50 per cent higher than that for human trafficking?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, that is a detailed question on which I shall have to write to the noble Lord. An interesting problem is that it can be very difficult to secure prosecutions for trafficking. Often we see criminals being prosecuted for offences other than trafficking because it is easier to secure the evidence. I neglected to answer the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Bew, about a possible gap in the legislation in Northern Ireland. I can assure him that we have not revoked anything and that there will be no gaps.
Baroness Butler-Sloss
Before the noble Earl sits down, I hope that I may ask one question. I do not have a copy of the directive with me in the Chamber but my recollection—it may be wrong—is that the national rapporteur or equivalent mechanism is required to be independent. Perhaps the noble Earl will check that.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I received inspiration from the Box, saying that that was not a requirement. If I am wrong about that, I will, of course, write to noble Lords. However, the key point is that we are in line with what other European states are doing.
Baroness Doocey
I am very pleased that the Minister will visit Eurostar. I am sure he will find that he is knocking at an open door. Will he also agree to speak to the specialist agencies concerned with child trafficking that work at St Pancras and the Paladin team as I think he might get a slightly different view of the situation regarding the border controls and how the whole thing operates than he has given us today?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I am sure that interested organisations will read this debate in Hansard. If they want to send me the right questions to ask interested parties, I will take careful note of them.
Baroness Goudie
Will the Government consider fining Eurostar for letting in trafficked people, as happens with airlines?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I think the noble Baroness is referring to the controls imposed on airlines where the passenger does not have the correct document. I am confident that Eurostar will not willingly allow someone to be trafficked. However, we need to understand that this is an activity of those involved in organised crime who are extremely skilful at achieving their ends.
Motion to Adjourn
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
That the House do now adjourn during pleasure until 2.33 pm.
Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for adhering to the speaking time limit. Perhaps I may take this opportunity to apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, for interrupting him inappropriately.
Motion agreed.
Scotland Bill
(12 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
“Variation of student fees according to origin of British students
In Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the 1998 Act, under Head L (miscellaneous) at the end insert—
“L8. Variation of student fees according to origin of British students
The setting of student fees for students from England, Northern Ireland or Wales studying at Scottish universities at rates different from those for students from Scotland studying at Scottish universities.Interpretation“Fees” has the meaning given by section 41 of the Higher Education Act 2004.””
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, it is my pleasure to move Amendment 22, which would prevent the Scottish Executive and the Scottish Parliament from imposing discriminatory fees on students at Scottish universities who are resident in England, Wales or Northern Ireland. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, has a similar amendment, Amendment 24. I must insist that he tabled it quite separately from my amendment and without any collusion whatever. I am saying this because his off-the-cuff comment earlier about the roadshow of the “toxic two” has been picked up north of the border and is already causing some interest. Both amendments were tabled with the same purpose.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
This is the first recorded occasion when the Scottish media have paid attention to anything that was going on in this House.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I think that things are moving up the scale, although they are taking some time to do so. We are making a little bit of an impact there now.
I want to make it clear that in moving the amendment I am conscious of the sensitivities in relationships between Westminster and Holyrood, and between the UK Government and the Scottish Government. We have found in many of our discussions that this is a sensitive area in which we have to tread very warily, and I would hesitate to say anything that suggested that the UK Parliament was imposing its will upon the Scottish Parliament.
I say that having been a Member of the Scottish Parliament for four years. A number of noble Lords who have participated in these proceedings have also been MSPs—including the noble Lord, Lord Steel, who was Presiding Officer, the noble Lord, Lords, Lord Selkirk, Lord Watson and others who have participated, and, of course, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, the Minister who is to reply. Those of us who have been in Holyrood are aware of those sensitivities and we move with caution.
However, this Parliament has some responsibilities. The action of the United Kingdom Government in imposing very high fees precipitated this issue in the first place. I know that this is one area where the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, and I might not totally see eye to eye. I am very pleased to see present the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, who was a distinguished vice-chancellor of my old university, Edinburgh—not when I was a student, I hasten to add; he is not nearly that old, and neither am I. His experience and deep knowledge of the university sector will be very helpful, and that demonstrates some of the value of this Chamber.
We also have a wider responsibility for the European Convention on Human Rights and the equality legislation, as epitomised in the Equality Act. We therefore have to bear some responsibility for and take some interest in discrimination and equality. What has been not just proposed but agreed by the Scottish Executive and Scottish Government is tremendously unfair discrimination against students from England, Wales and Northern Ireland who go to Scottish universities. It really is quite disgraceful. It is astonishing, when you think of it, that students from Lisbon, Madrid or Berlin will all get in free to Scottish universities, but students from Belfast, London or Cardiff will have to pay fees.
Lord Sewel
Does the noble Lord recognise the supreme irony in the Scottish Government’s position? On the one hand, they are arguing for independence, but the policy they are pursuing can be carried out only while they remain members of the United Kingdom. If they achieved independence within the EU, they would not be able to have this pernicious policy.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My noble friend, who was a distinguished administrator and academic at the University of Aberdeen—he was vice-principal—has put his finger on one very important matter. In fact, he has taken away a major part of my speech. Never mind about that. It is a massive irony, as my noble friend said, that the Scottish Government are able to impose these discriminatory fees only because Scotland is part of the United Kingdom. If Scotland was an independent country, as the SNP wants, that Government would be unable to impose those fees. Students from England, Wales and Northern Ireland would be in exactly the same position as students from Poland, Germany or wherever in the European Union.
Baroness Liddell of Coatdyke
My noble friend is making a valid and important point, but there is another dimension to the issue. It is largely the Barnett formula, which taxpayers throughout the United Kingdom contribute to, that allows the Scottish Government to act in this way. We are discriminating against those taxpayers from England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My noble friend and former boss as Secretary of State for Scotland has just stolen the second plank of my argument, but she put it very well indeed. It is a serious matter, because the parents of potential students at Scottish universities from London, Belfast and Cardiff are paying money into the UK Exchequer and that money, through the Barnett formula, subsidises Scottish universities, whereas parents of students from Berlin, Lisbon or Madrid are paying nothing to the UK Exchequer. That is an astonishing position to take.
This has been recognised as an unfair anomaly and discrimination not only by Members of this House. Today's Glasgow Herald states that legal action is already being taken by Phil Shiner on behalf of Public Interest Lawyers. Let me quote directly:
“Lawyers will launch court action as early as next month to stop the SNP Government's controversial policy of enabling Scottish universities to charge English students up to £9000 a year in tuition fees while home students pay nothing, The Herald can reveal”.
That action is taking place, but how much better it would be if, instead of having to defend that action—in practice, defending the indefensible—the UK Government were to accept my amendment and the Scottish Government were to agree to stop that discrimination.
To quote from the Guardian—no, it was the New Statesman, which is even better than the Guardian—the point has been made that,
“The resentment felt by English students, who will soon pay the highest public university fees in the world, will further destabilise the Union”.
One wonders whether the First Minister of Scotland has an ulterior motive, because it is alienating people in England. Lots of people from south of the border, when they find out about that, say how disgraceful it is. I am glad to say that I have also been approached by lots of people north of the border who think it is disgraceful: students, parents and others who are really concerned.
The New Statesman continues:
“The growing disparity between the two countries is a reminder of the incomplete nature of Britain's constitutional settlement”.
That is absolutely right, and something that I propose to deal with in other amendments to the Bill and which I have raised elsewhere. It continues:
“The UK is now neither a unitary nor a federal state and its largest constituent group—the English—feels increasingly unrepresented. For too long, politicians have complacently ignored threats to the Union; they must now act to repair our disunited kingdom before it is too late”.
I say to that hear, hear. This may be being done for some positive reasons, but in my view, it is for ulterior motives as well.
I hope that we will consider passing the amendment. It is important that we send out a strong call from this Chamber, from Westminster, to the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Executive that they should reconsider this. I must be honest: I know that one or two of my colleagues in the House of Commons, one or two here and one or two in the Scottish Parliament have had some reservations about me pushing ahead with the amendment. To them, I cite Claire Baker, who is the Labour spokesperson on education in the Scottish Parliament. When the order went through the Scottish Parliament, the Liberal Democrats and the Labour Members did not vote against it for interesting reasons. Claire Baker said:
“I remain to be convinced that the order provides the right answer”—
she did not believe that—
“but I accept that action must be taken. After this morning’s evidence I remain concerned about the introduction of a variable fee and the lack of regulation and access arrangements, and I have wider concerns about the £9,000 fee level that has been set. However, I will support the order, which I realise is important if we are to manage cross-border flow and protect student places. I will return to the fee level, the regulator and other issues of concern when primary legislation is being considered”.
So there is deep disquiet. People in the Opposition in the Scottish Parliament feel that they are being given Hobson's choice: they feel that they are being forced into this. Otherwise, universities, including my former university of Edinburgh, will be squeezed even further in their income and find it more difficult. The members of the Opposition in the Scottish Parliament have been placed in an impossible position by the sky-high fees imposed by the United Kingdom coalition Government and by the discrimination imposed by the Scottish Administration. That pincer movement is making it very difficult for people.
Finally, I return to the main point. Whatever the detail of the argument, whatever the facts and figures—I know that the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, and others will give more facts and figures about what is happening in the Scottish universities—it is deeply disturbing that such blatant discrimination should be taking place against students and potential students from England, Wales and Northern Ireland. I hope that the House will send that message very strongly to Edinburgh today.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, I speak to my Amendment 24. Just to make sure that people realise that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and I agree only on some things, I respectfully remind him that it was the Labour Government who introduced tuition fees.
I remember that particularly well because the only time I have taken a Bill through this House was when the much missed late Lady Blatch was our Front-Bench spokesman. She was ill and asked me to take the Bill through the House. The rather splendid noble Baroness, Lady Ashton, who has sadly been taken from us to other duties, was leading on the Bill. I said to her, “Look, I have a problem”. There was an issue about gap year students having to pay more. I said, “If you will amend the Bill and allow for gap year students, I won’t waste your time and be unnecessarily difficult, but there is another thing I need you to do. I need you to help me to make sure that we do not get a vote on the principle of tuition fees”—which the Liberals were very keen to achieve—“because I'm being told by the powers that be in our party that we have to vote against tuition fees and most of the people on my side would be in the wrong lobby”. So we attempted to avoid having a vote because most of my colleagues rightly recognised that the future of universities depended on having tuition fees.
This is not a debate about the principle of tuition fees. Indeed, my amendment does not mention tuition fees. The Bill is about the exercise of power—we have taken back Antarctica; we are giving other things—and it defines the powers of the Scottish Parliament. The new clause in my amendment is intended to make clear that the Scottish Parliament is free to exercise its powers, but it cannot exercise its powers in a way that discriminates against people from England, Wales and Northern Ireland relative to people in other European states. That is the real wickedness involved in what is happening now: Greeks, Germans, Poles and French all get the same deal as the Scots, but English, Welsh and Northern Ireland people do not. When I say Northern Ireland people, Welsh people and English people, this is not about nationality but about the place where you live.
As I said to someone from the BBC the other day, “You work for the BBC. You get posted to Glasgow. You've got three children who are aged, say, 14, 15 and 16 and they want to go to university. You get rung up by the director-general and told that you have to move to Manchester. That could cost your children £100,000 in fees because they will no longer be eligible to go to some of the best universities in the country”—I declare an interest as a graduate of St Andrews—“such as St Andrews, Edinburgh or Glasgow for free. The moment you move to England, they will have to pay. This is just a complete nonsense. Of course, you could accept a job in Madrid, or Paris or anywhere else in Europe—but not in England, Wales or Northern Ireland”. It is an absurdity.
The real wickedness comes when you say in a reasoned way to Alex Salmond, “This is not fair”. The response you get is: “If Scotland is independent, the English will get the same deal as the Greeks, the French and the Germans”. That is not good enough. I hope that my noble and learned friend is not going to get up and give the same, lame arguments about how this is what devolution is about. No, it is not. Devolution is about making decisions in Scotland in the interests of Scotland. It is not about discriminating against people from the rest of the United Kingdom in a way which was never envisaged during the passage of the Scotland Act through this House.
I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord McConnell, is not in his place. Last week, when we were discussing the Bill, he came up with a brilliant image when, in trying to explain the apparently irrational behaviour of the First Minister and his separatist colleagues, he said that it is a bit like tenants who want to get a move from a bad estate to another estate: the first thing you do is upset the neighbours. This is about upsetting the neighbours, and upsetting the neighbours it is. There is real anger about this.
I stood recently in a rectorial campaign in St Andrews—I only got 900 votes, which is actually not bad for a banker and a Tory these days. The winning candidate was very good indeed. I spent a week in St Andrews with the students. There you have, side by side, students working very hard, much harder than I ever did when I was at St Andrews, in a university which has been transformed. A third of the students are English, a third are Scottish and a third are European or international. The Scottish students will pay nothing. The fees are going up to £9,000 a year and it is a four-year degree, so that is £36,000 if you are English. The European students are paying nothing. They are all working side by side.
The other thing that struck me was that St Andrews just looks the same as it did—most medieval towns do. The restaurants and the pubs are the same. The students are certainly much more focused. However, whereas in my day there were no students working in the restaurants and the bars, there now are. They need to do so in order to make ends meet. It is quite divisive and wrong to have students from different parts of the United Kingdom faced with substantial borrowing and debt, or no debt, simply because of which part of the United Kingdom they live in. I believe that this is a deliberate policy to create anger. There is genuine anger and resentment, not least on the part of those students who feel that they are being given a better deal relative to their colleague than they perhaps deserve.
There is also anger on the part of parents. I suggested to someone who shall remain nameless who was at St Andrews with me that they might like to make a contribution to the university in its 600th anniversary year. She said, “Not on your life! Not while my children are not able to go to St Andrews without having to pay these enormous fees”.
So it is quite wrong. It would be entirely appropriate for the Government to restrict the powers of the Scottish Parliament so that it cannot operate in this way on any area of policy. As the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, a former Secretary of State for Scotland, pointed out, the Barnett formula is extremely generous. The spending per head on education is about 20 per cent higher. It really is adding insult to injury to ask the English to send more money per head north of the border on education for the privilege of seeing their children treated less generously than people from Greece.
If the Prime Minister says that he will defend the union to the last fibre of his being, here is a test. I ask my noble friend to ask the Prime Minister to look at this, and ask him seriously whether we can go on allowing this to happen. This is very timely. Hitherto, the fees have been at levels of £3,000 a year, so it would be £12,000. Now they are going up to £9,000 a year, so it is a huge imposition upon these students and is building enormous resentment. I hope that my noble and learned friend will give this some consideration.
A third party is very angry about this: the universities. I am delighted to see in his place the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, with all his experience of higher education in Scotland. The universities are the poor mugs who have got to set the fees with this difficult and divisive position for their students, and who take all the flack for its consequences. I am not going to press this to a vote today, because I want to give my noble and learned friend time to think about it and come back at a later stage, but I hope that he will take it seriously. This is the first opportunity that we have had since the introduction of tuition fees and top-up fees to debate this matter. It is widely resented around the country. It is a deep, deep injustice which needs to be put right.
Lord Sutherland of Houndwood
My Lords, I thank my two preceding speakers for their kind remarks. I run the risk of being drawn into this love-in going on across the Benches and I do not especially wish to be, so I hope that they say something nasty about me at some point.
I support the two amendments. Neither is perfect, and they need a bit of further thought, but I particularly welcome their pairing. Amendment 22 illustrates very well the general principles implied in Amendment 24, which are what I wish to speak about. As a declaration of interest, I am a former principal of Edinburgh University. I have links with most of the universities that I will talk about, but that of course includes many south of the border that are our friends, colleagues and competitors. There is a view across the whole country on this which must be taken it account.
The problem, which has been well illustrated, is clearly the differentials in treatment of students from what is now called the RUK group—there is now a formal title in Scotland for the “rest of the United Kingdom”—and students from the European Union. This is disproportionate. The differential between them and the way in which they are now being separated out is unjust and is not something that we happily live with on either side of the border, or in the university system across the country.
This division started quite some time ago. There was a trickle of complaints when fees were originally raised through this mechanism but they were small sums of money, comparatively speaking. This trickle grew into a pretty strong stream when the target hit £3,000 and is now a vast torrent. There will be much irritation and anger, and a great degree of thinking twice about where to study as a result of this policy.
The figures in question come out of a series of decisions taken on the administration of higher education which started in 1992, when the two funding councils were separated. On grounds of consistency, I have to say that I opposed that separation. Indeed, if you read the relevant speech of the Member for West Lothian in the other place at the time, you will see that he quotes me as being against it. That was because I began to worry then about the kind of separation that will take, and has taken, place. The two funding councils are proceeding well according to their own administrative arrangements. I do not blame the accounting officers or members there. They have financial settlements imposed upon them by government, not least by this House.
The division that occurred then has grown in practice, perhaps in a way in which none had envisaged and certainly in a way that most of us regret. The issue today is not whether you can turn the clock back completely. Devolution has happened; I accept that. The issue is whether we want the kind of devolution that produces this sad differential between students from different countries and different areas within the United Kingdom.
Lord Sewel
Was the noble Lord as uncomfortable as I was when reading the justification of some leaders of Scottish universities for imposing the highest fees? They used the argument that it was necessary in order to prevent Scottish universities being swamped by English students. I found that deeply uncomfortable.
Lord Sutherland of Houndwood
I am very uncomfortable with that. On the other hand, there were reasons, which I shall come to now, for the level of fees being set as it is.
The policy of the Scottish Government and the funding council is such that in the period from last year to next year a gap of roughly £40 million will have opened up in the funding of those universities. The University of Edinburgh, much to its credit—as the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, will be pleased to hear—recruits a large number of students from south of the border, and they contribute significantly to the life of that university. That is part of the way in which the university focuses on its United Kingdom, let alone its international, obligations.
With regard to that gap of £40 million, I know it is put about by some that the universities are raiding the coffers of the rich English and that is why they are setting the fees as they are, but that is not the case. A funding gap has been created. I pay tribute to the University of Edinburgh because I believe that at the same time it has put in place the most generous and best scheme for helping students who could not otherwise afford it to come from south of the border. It is a very good scheme which I think could be emulated by others.
Where did this fees level come from? It came from two decisions. One was the coalition Government’s decision to increase the fees to £9,000, although I have to say that they were following the example of their predecessors. This is not an argument about whether there should or should not be fees. I resist the temptation to get into that, although I have strong views on it. That was one element of what created this division. The other is that the Scottish Parliament, through its allocation to the funding council, deliberately created a gap in the funding of Scottish universities—it is in its accounts—of over £50 million. It created that gap and in effect instructed the universities to raise the money from students coming from the rest of the United Kingdom. That being so, there is a dual responsibility here, and it simply illustrates the point made more eloquently by the previous speakers about how we can sometimes set out on a constitutional road that leads not just to unintended consequences but to very unfair and unacceptable consequences as many of us see them.
Students from the rest of the United Kingdom, or RUK—it has a name, which is a sign of how well entrenched it is—will have to live with students whom they know will be paying none of the £36,000 that they are paying. The case has already been given of at least two such universities. It is sometimes suggested that the £36,000 is unnecessary. That is not true. If we are to compete with the best in the United Kingdom, that is the carefully estimated sum of money that has to be put back into the budget of individual universities, and they have set their fees accordingly.
I should mention that I was rather pleased to hear in the Antarctic debate mention of the University of Edinburgh. It has very strong research interests there and I am glad that we are protecting those interests. The only other interest that I could think of Scottish universities having in the Antarctic was if a very strong strain of clever penguins started applying to universities. They would have to decide what fees to charge the penguins, but happily we are unlikely to face that problem.
To summarise, an indefensible gap has arisen. I am not sure that either of these amendments would deal with it completely, but it is time for further thought. Do we want our university community, which shares knowledge and a passion for truth, to be divided within the United Kingdom financially in this extrovert way—a way that will distort human behaviour and the ways in which applications to universities are made? I hope not.
Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market
My Lords, I am delighted to be able to follow the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland. He referred to the eloquence of the other speakers but, if I may say so, he has spoken with great eloquence, great authority and great experience on this subject.
When I woke up this morning, I had not been expecting to take part in this debate but I was working in my office and at other meetings in the House and happened to bump into my noble friend Lord Forsyth over a sandwich. Having realised what the subject is, I am only too delighted to be able to intervene. I hope to speak on the subject briefly because many of the points that I wanted to make have been made already.
I was born and brought up in Scotland and, like my noble friend Lord Forsyth, I went to the University of St Andrews. I listened to the point that the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, made about the contribution of English students to the University of Edinburgh. I recall very clearly that one of the great richnesses during my time at St Andrews came from the university having so many students from America and elsewhere but particularly from England. I believe that that had a very beneficial effect in widening my horizons.
Subsequently, of course, I came to England and for many years represented an English constituency, and I shall say something about that in a moment. The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, referred to the sensitivity of dealing with the Scottish Parliament on this issue. However, I think that there is no more sensitive an issue than this question of tuition fees for parents who live in England but who, like me, may have been born in Scotland and who hope that their children will go to Scottish universities. From knowledge gained from my friends and particularly from my constituents in Norfolk, I can say that the resentment is very great.
I know how this issue arose originally—the Scottish universities had to accept the ruling that EU students had to be treated the same as those in Scotland but that did not apply in the United Kingdom. That argument is not understood by any parent or potential student who wants to come to Scotland. I hesitate to mention the Barnett formula but the noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, has done so already. I was going to look at the Barnett formula in a slightly different context. I have always—since first being in government—been a strong opponent of the Barnett formula, but that is another story. However, there is no question that Scotland benefits greatly from the formula. One way of putting this resentment right would be to meet the fees required from English students coming to Scotland through the extra expenditure that the Scottish Parliament has received from the Barnett formula.
I want to say one other thing on this subject. For many years, I tried to persuade my constituents and many others in Norfolk and elsewhere of the unfairness to those in England—very often receiving grants from local authorities and so on—of the Barnett formula in treating Scotland so much better. I could never persuade my constituents of the importance of this case because it seemed remote from them. However, the one issue that they really understand and which creates resentment is when they want one of their children to go to the Scottish university that they attended but they find that the financial penalties are such that they are not able to do so. That is what comes home to them. I used to get a lot of representations from people in this situation and I could never convince them otherwise; I could only agree with them. That is why I strongly support these two amendments.
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan
I am very pleased to follow the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor. There seems to be an outbreak of unity in the Chamber today and we should be grateful to the noble Lords, Lord Forsyth and Lord Foulkes, for their amendments. The amendments may have imperfections but the point has been well made that devolution was to be about the extension of democracy, greater accountability and, ultimately, greater transparency. Through that, we hoped that there would be a measure of equity. In fact, what we have here is a classic example of the inequitable character of our constitutional arrangements.
I voted very reluctantly in favour of the principle of charging fees—I was probably one of the last converts from the Whips’ arm-twisting process and what have you. However, I am not sure whether I would have voted in favour of the principle of fees if I had thought that it was going to be abused in the way that it is being abused by the Scottish Government. From the very speedy but quite succinct analysis given by the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, of the accounting procedures adopted by the separatist Administration in Edinburgh, it is quite clear that they are out to discriminate against the rest of the United Kingdom and to prevent young people coming to our universities. If they do come, they will be making a disproportionate contribution to the finances of these institutions.
It is certainly the case that some institutions for historical reasons, such as Edinburgh, are probably better endowed and better able to introduce generous systems of support. There are a number of institutions that one might almost call marginal in their financial capability to provide the kind of support—
Lord Sutherland of Houndwood
I thank the noble Lord for giving way. The money that Edinburgh will put forward for needy students comes from the total fees package that is taken in. Clearly, they test alumni—looking around the Chamber, I remind Members of this—for additional funds to do that, but a significant part of the money comes from the fees that they charge.
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan
The point I was going on to make is that some of the newer institutions are less well endowed in the round, have smaller numbers of alumni for a start, and are discriminated against in another way. Those institutions are not as attractive and are therefore unable to benefit from students from the rest of the UK or from abroad. Even within the system there are difficulties and inequities. There are imperfections in the two amendments, and the Government have to take the point that this Chamber is not happy with the way in which things have developed, nor with the unfairness that has been inflicted on children and families across the country. One part of the United Kingdom is able to benefit from devolution in this way and have free education at undergraduate level, while others in the same country are discriminated against when they come to Scotland to study or are deterred altogether, which I think is even more significant. Our universities and our Scottish institutions make a unique contribution to the mix.
I have had this discussion in my own family with my sons. They say, “We’re not really interested in going to Oxbridge; we think Edinburgh and Glasgow are perfectly adequate to provide us with an education”. One could argue that they might have got the emphasis a wee bit wrong, but that mood still prevails. However, we do not want children to grow up in some kind of Caledonian closet, where they will not be open to other relationships and cultures. My younger son, who went to Glasgow, learnt a lot from being in the same halls of residence and playing in the same football team as young men from Northern Ireland, whose cultural and social background was dramatically different from his own. Such people will not necessarily have the chance to come to our institutions and the Scots who go to our institutions will not have their company.
Money is at the beginning, the middle and the end of this situation, but there are other dimensions. When we started on the road to devolution, we wanted, as I said earlier, to create a better United Kingdom, not a United Kingdom that was inequitable because of the cynicism of separatists in Scotland who wished to use the mechanism at their disposal to discredit the concept of the UK. This is an opportunity for us to avoid that and to ensure that they can be exposed for the charlatans they are when they argue in favour of free education for some but not for the rest, not because they do not happen to be Scottish but because they just happen to live in the wrong part of the United Kingdom.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart
My Lords, I should declare an interest. I have recently been appointed as a trustee of the development trust for the most recent university in Scotland—indeed in Britain—the University of the Highlands and Islands, which has achieved its status at the hands of the Privy Council in the last year.
I cannot rest today on the arguments about university fees and the rights and wrongs of charging some. I know that opinion is deeply divided about that and that some of those involved in universities have made strong cases for substantial fees. Something as inequitable and discriminatory as this must exercise everyone in this House and in the country. What has been done by the Scottish Administration is deeply divisive.
The first successful advocacy that I indulged in as a boy was to persuade my father not to send me to an English boarding school but to keep me at the Glasgow Academy. I remember trying to persuade my parents’ friends that they should take part in that advocacy because I got so much benefit from their generation and not just from my own generation. After that campaign had been won and I was allowed to remain at school in Glasgow, I remember that I received a letter from the right honourable Hector McNeil, who was at the time Minister of State to the Foreign Secretary, Ernest Bevin, saying, “Well done. You have chosen a good school and you have done the right thing, but I must tell you that there is a great deal to be said for thinking about going to a university in another part of the United Kingdom and I would encourage you to look at Oxbridge”. I did and I went there.
In the case of my own offspring, my son, the situation was reversed. In the House of Commons I represented a remote constituency and it was decided that my son should go to school in London where I would have a better chance of seeing him. In turn, he went to Edinburgh University. I wonder whether he can be described as a Scot or not? As the rules stand, it is all about where he lives. It seems to me that this is a shocking determination. In my son’s case it did not happen. He went to Edinburgh. Pupils who are at the University of the Highlands and Islands, Edinburgh University or wherever are now faced with grossly unequal circumstances. It does not encourage people to move around and gain new educational experiences in a new and different part of the country.
The University of the Highlands and Islands in particular will seek to attract people to study there who are engaged in many different, discrete and sophisticated scientific and other studies. I fear that this will have an adverse impact on those studies. I noted the reference to the University of Edinburgh studying Antarctica. Cambridge University is promoting similar studies. People may consider that they might as well go to Cambridge as Edinburgh if they have to pay the same fee. This higher educational process will not benefit the younger members of our society if people are discriminated against in this way.
The arguments have been very well deployed in this excellent debate. I ask my noble and learned friend to take away these arguments and discuss them with senior colleagues who are in a position to do something. It is important that there should be a direct dialogue before Report not only with our senior Ministers but with representatives of the Scottish Executive. The public utterances that have been made by the First Minister, Mr Salmond, have been utterly deplorable in their discriminatory effect, and calculated to stimulate hostility among those who are not Scots. That is not how our Government should be managed. Although I cannot expect the Minister to give an entirely positive answer today, I hope that when the Bill comes back he will have taken these views into account and come up with proposals that right this serious wrong.
Lord Sanderson of Bowden
My Lords, I strongly support both my noble friend’s amendment and that of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. I should perhaps declare an interest. I have two grandchildren, both aged 17. One is at school in Scotland and has been offered a place at Cambridge. The other is at school in England, lives in England and has been offered a place, conditional on her A-level results, at Edinburgh University.
Lord MacGregor of Pulham Market
I may have a potential interest that I did not declare. I have grandchildren living in England who may wish to go to a Scottish university.
Lord Sanderson of Bowden
In my case, no doubt everyone will realise that the grandfather will have to pay. That is one part of it. I strongly support what my noble friend Lord Maclennan said when he asked my noble and learned friend on the Front Bench to take this matter away, consider it carefully and come back with an answer that will give us some satisfaction.
The question was asked earlier in this very good debate: do we want this sort of devolution? For my money, I think not—and I certainly know by the amount of disquiet in Scotland over this matter that there is concern that this must be sorted out. It should not be within the power of the present Scottish Government to exercise power in this way, with discrimination writ all over it in big letters. We must think of another way of dealing with this. I realise that legally they are quite correct, but morally they are not. If they want to try to divide the United Kingdom, this is the way to go about it—and frankly I dislike it intensely. It goes to the heart of the argument over whether the United Kingdom should be broken up. I sincerely hope that the two amendments in this group will start a debate in this House and outside it, as my noble friend Lord Maclennan said, and that the Minister will listen carefully and realise the anger that exists up and down the country over this discriminatory measure.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, who put the nub of the issue facing the Government and the Committee very forcefully and clearly. Once more in this Committee, the noble and learned Lord is caught in a pincer movement between my noble friend Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth of Drumlean. Yesterday I was in conversation with a Scottish broadcast journalist, who shall remain nameless. He suggested that they were rapidly becoming the Chuckle Brothers of Scottish politics. No doubt as our deliberations go on the divisions between them will become apparent, although many of us know where they lie in any event.
In raising this issue, my noble friend Lord Foulkes brings to your Lordships' House a matter that is perceived by many in Scotland and, indeed, in this Committee, to be a cause of great unfairness. There can be no doubt about that. There are large numbers of people in Scotland who do not think that this is a fair way in which to treat students from England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and for good reason, because Scottish people pride themselves on the progressive nature of their thinking and on their values. Instinctively, they think—and they are right—that it is unfair that students who come to Scotland from England, Wales or Northern Ireland are treated differently from Scottish students or students from the European Union. The difference is obvious. We have the benefit in our deliberations of the summary by the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, of the short history of this difference.
It is undoubtedly true that the fact that there are different systems of student support and student fees in different parts of the United Kingdom means that there is discrimination. While it has existed for some time, that discrimination has, by recent decisions of the UK and Scottish Governments, been driven to new heights, and consequently it is now much more apparent than it was. As my noble friend’s amendment and the support for it show, it raises real issues about whether within the United Kingdom we can continue to operate such a discriminatory regime without addressing its inherent unfairness. To that extent, my noble friend is to be congratulated because he focuses his arguments very sharply, and it is clearly right to debate them, as the contributions we have heard thus far make clear.
Whether it is appropriate to have this amendment in this Bill is a matter that the Minister will no doubt address. In one view, having devolved education, including higher education and student support, to the Scottish Parliament, it is a matter for it, and we should live with the consequences, which should be reflected in the political circumstances in which it operates. Whether there is some strong constitutional reason for leaving this to the Scottish Parliament, the amendment proposed by my noble friend raises real practical issues, and the debate that took place in the committee in the Scottish Parliament on the order that set out the specification of these fees encapsulated that. These practical issues will be reflected in the budget for Scotland. I do not think that any noble Lord who has contributed to this debate seeks to set the budget for the Scottish Government or, indeed, the Scottish Parliament but, effectively, that might be what we were doing if we dealt with this issue.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My amendment is different from that of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and we will no doubt come to it, but I have a simple, straightforward question for the noble Lord. Do the Opposition think that as part of the devolution framework, of which they were the midwives or architects, it is right that the Scottish Parliament should be able to exercise any power which results in discrimination against people resident outwith Scotland relative to people in the rest of the EU? It seems that there is an important principle here, of which fees are an illustration.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I have not been long in your Lordships' House, but I have learnt to be wary of the noble Lord’s simple questions. It is a pretty straightforward question and, when we were sharing responsibility with the people of Scotland for the devolution settlement, it was certainly never envisaged that this discrimination against young people in relation to higher education would be a consequence. I do not think anybody imagined that. In fact, I suspect that had the issue of internal discrimination in the United Kingdom been raised, we would have set our face against it in the original Act.
However, the politics of Scotland have moved on and, as the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, and my noble friend Lord Foulkes spelt out very clearly, decisions have been made about student fees and the way in which we support higher education, and they have had consequences. One of them has been a significant potential financial disadvantage to Scottish universities, which could have untold detrimental consequences in the longer term for their ability to hold on to the best of their staff or to provide the level of education that they pride themselves on having provided, in some cases over centuries. That was an issue that had to be addressed and those who have looked at the way in which this discrimination has come about and how it was debated in the Scottish Parliament will know what the issues about funding are. It may be possible to address them in other ways but I do not know the detail of that. I am not supporting the way in which they have been addressed here. It is right that we should debate them but I am not entirely certain that this is the right way to do it.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
I am most grateful to the noble Lord and I am completely out of my depth because I have never really understood the legal profession. Is he saying that a situation existed where there were rights of audience that were unique to Scots that would not apply in England, but would apply to the French, the Germans and everyone else in Europe? Is that the position? If that is the case, rather like me I am sure he would believe in the single market and, advancing that, would regard this as anomalous.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
The noble Lord raises a point of principle. My point was that, to my knowledge, there was one other offence to that principle. Others may know of others. I do not know whether that situation persists because I am not up to date enough. I know that there was a period of time when advocates from the European Union had a right of audience in Scottish Courts as a consequence of their own domestic qualification, whereas, as I remember it, that did not apply to English advocates and vice versa. Indeed, I have many friends in the legal profession who qualified again, as it were, in England in order to be able to appear before English courts. But if that no longer persists, this area in relation to student fees is the sole area of discrimination that I can drag up from my own experience. Whether in those circumstances it is right to deal with this with some amendment of principle, I would have to consider. If the only issue relates to student fees, perhaps there is another way to address that apparent inequity and it should be thought through.
Going back to my noble friend’s amendment, I wish to make a point which has already been alluded to; namely, the real inequity of this current discrimination of regime is that these decisions are beginning to affect the kind of students we get in Scotland from England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The continuation of our union, which I support, depends substantially on our young people interacting. The differentials in the cost of education weigh heavily in decisions that our young people are taking about where they wish to be educated, as we have heard from those who are fathers or grandfathers of young people who have made those sorts of decisions. We are in danger of creating a Scotland in which our indigenous Scots student population will only meet the children of rich English, Northern Irish and Welsh families. At the same time, less well off children in other parts of the United Kingdom will be denied the benefit of a Scots university education. I do not think that can be right. The question that faces this Committee is the best way to address it.
I am pleased to say that on this occasion I do not speak for the Government. I am glad to have been able to make a short contribution to the debate. It has been enhanced by what we have heard from the noble Lords, Lord Sutherland, Lord MacGregor, Lord Maclennan and Lord Sanderson, and my noble friend Lord O’Neill. I do not think that the noble and learned Lord can be in any doubt about the mood of the Committee on allowing the scope for discrimination to persist in the framework of the Scotland Act. I will listen carefully to what he has to say and I am certain that we will find a way of returning to this issue on Report once we have had a chance to take in his response.
Lord Selkirk of Douglas
Would the noble Lord care to bear in mind that the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) (Scotland) Act removed the discrimination which he claimed with regard to rights of audience for solicitor advocates? I also understand that my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern was instrumental in ensuring that the same thing happened south of the border.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I am grateful to the noble Lord for that intervention. I am a member of a profession that prides itself on discrimination—at least certainly in its history it did—between those who had rights of audience in the higher courts and those who were historically perfectly capable of making the arguments but were denied. That division was addressed in the way the noble Lord has suggested. I am absolutely certain that the discrimination I was alluding to, which was based more on geography than on someone’s membership of certain branches of the profession, has now been addressed. I am not entirely sure whether it has or not, but the purpose of introducing it was not to take us down a cul-de-sac, but to explore the issue of whether the interest in principle of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, was a necessary way of redressing a situation that went beyond student fees.
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan
Perhaps my noble friend would remember that we do not need to have a solution that covers every form of discrimination. He should not allow the waters to be muddied by the somewhat unhelpful intervention of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, by way of a question. It is quite clear that on the educational issue here, this Committee is united. That is the message which should go up the channels of the Labour Party to those who will think about considering another amendment at some stage and whether or not it could be supported. Let us be clear: we just want something on fees and on the discriminatory effect of that issue.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I am grateful to my noble friend for his clarity of presentation. I do not think that anyone, having heard the debate or on reading it in the future, as people will, could be in any doubt about the mood of the Committee over this issue. That message will get through to those who need to hear it. In a sense, my noble friend was saying much the same thing as I was. I am not sure whether this is an issue which as a question of principle actually goes beyond the question of student fees, but if it does, then perhaps it needs to be addressed in the way suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
Perhaps I can help the noble Lord. It is great to have a rebuke from the Opposition Benches. I was actually thinking that it would be easier for the Opposition to accept a point of principle in respect of devolution rather than accept a restriction on the policy freedom that was implied for the Scottish Parliament. I was just trying to be helpful.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
I am pleased to have been able to give the noble Lord another opportunity to be helpful to the Committee, and at this point I will conclude my remarks.
The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Wallace of Tankerness)
My Lords, the Committee owes a debt to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and my noble friend Lord Forsyth for introducing this debate. As the noble Lord, Lord Browne, said, there can be no doubt as to the mood of the Committee on this issue, and views were expressed with great passion and sincerity. I think that I have some common ground with the noble Lord, Lord Browne, but I want to read his remarks carefully. I accept the sympathy that he offered me.
As the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, said in moving the amendment, we have to be conscious of the sensitivities of relationships between the Westminster Parliament, the Scottish Parliament and the respective Governments of the United Kingdom. He said that we ought not to appear to be imposing something on the Scottish Parliament, albeit that is what the impact of the amendments would be.
I am in a slightly more difficult position for a number of reasons, not least because it would not be appropriate for me as a member of the UK Government to express an opinion about policies of the Scottish Government. Others have had the freedom to do that, which I could perhaps envy, but it would not be appropriate for me to do so other than to make some more general points.
My noble friend Lord Forsyth said that the debate should not be about the principle of tuition fees; on the other hand, it leads to a question of choices. A choice was made back in 1999-2000 by the Scottish Parliament not to charge tuition fees for domiciled Scottish students, whereas a choice was made by the Westminster Parliament under the previous Administration and continued by the present Administration that there would be tuition fee charging. The problem, which has given rise to such passion, would not have arisen at all if the United Kingdom Parliament had made a different choice.
Likewise, if I may pick up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Sutherland, the Scottish Government had a choice as to whether they should fund universities in the way in which they have done, with the fee structure that they are proposing, or to make more money available to the funding council, as did the Administration which I was proud to serve back in 2004. Then, we made the deliberate choice, from among all the priorities competing for government funding, to give additional funds to the further and higher education sectors in Scotland. That in some respects is what devolution is about: allowing the Scottish Government to make these choices. A part of what this Bill is about is making sure that there is greater accountability for the way in which money is raised. That is the background against which we should look at these issues.
Two strong issues emerged in the debate: one was the £9,000 fees for students from England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and the other, perhaps drawn out more in the amendment of my noble friend Lord Forsyth, related to the fact that European Union students do not pay fees if they study in Scotland. I fully recognise why the latter is seen as being very unfair to students in the rest of the United Kingdom. I make no bones about the fact that it is a result of European Union law, which, if it was to be changed, would require action far beyond this House.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
European Union law could not be changed unilaterally. I know that my noble friend proposes in his amendment how we might address it, but that is not the same as changing European Union law, which I am sure he would be the first to accept.
When the package of free tuition for Scottish domiciled students was introduced in January 2000, my noble friend Lord Stephen—or Mr Nicol Stephen MSP as he then was—as the deputy Minister for Enterprise and Lifelong Learning, indicated that the proposals were produced based on the best advice available given the risk of challenge by other EU nationals. He went on to say that he was disappointed with the legal advice and would like it to be different, but that was the position in terms of having to operate within the confines of European Union law. I would not wish to suggest who gave that advice because I am sure it was sound, but given that we had to operate within the confines of European Union law, that was how we got into that position. Let us not be under any illusion that it was something that the then Scottish Executive did because they wanted to do it. It was because they were obliged to do it.
Lord Sutherland of Houndwood
There is, however, one significant difference. Many of us come from a generation where we had to live at home when we went to university, which I did intermittently for a few hours each night. But that is not a choice available to students going from England to Scotland, so they cannot economise on the cost of university education by making a choice that others can, for example, who live in London.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
They can actually make the choice to go to London and possibly not pay any more or any less.
Lord Sutherland of Houndwood
Clearly the choice is driven then purely by financial constraints rather than by educational aspirations.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I agree and accept that, but we are perhaps kidding ourselves to think that those students in Scotland who chose to go to a university very close to home were not also taking into account financial considerations; albeit that they were fortunate to have so many universities of considerable quality on their doorsteps. If you came from the part of Scotland that I came from, nowhere was on the doorstep. I pay particular tribute to my noble friend Lord Forsyth for what he did when he was Secretary of State for Scotland in giving an impetus to the idea of the University of the Highlands and Islands, which, as my noble friend Lord Maclennan has indicated, has now come to fruition. It has taken a somewhat long time but it was worth it. I know how keen he was on it. It has made higher education available on the doorsteps of many people who otherwise would not have had that opportunity.
I never particularly like, and do not think this debate lends itself to, technical issues, but the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, is deficient in a number of ways. It reserves to the UK Parliament the power to make variations in fee levels between different parts of the United Kingdom. I am sure that it is not really quite what he was intending. I acknowledge and appreciate that my noble friend Lord Forsyth has sought to couch this in a way that is more related to an issue of principle rather than focusing on tuition fees. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Browne, pointed out, with the possible exception of rights of audience, you would be hard pushed to actually think of any other circumstance where this principle might arise. I will clarify the position on rights of audience. I clearly recall that it certainly was the case. I know of many practising advocates now at the Scottish Bar who are also at the English Bar—and some, indeed, at the Northern Ireland Bar—as well as some solicitors trained in Scotland who now work in firms in England. It does seem easier at a practical level to go between jurisdictions than it was hitherto. The point of my noble friend’s amendment is very much focused on tuition fees, which he did not attempt to disguise in speaking to his amendment.
However, one should always be aware of the law of unintended consequences. One possible consequence of his amendment is that the Scottish Government could address this by paying the tuition fees of every student from England, Wales and Northern Ireland. My noble friend says that would be fine. Obviously it could be budgeted and other things would have to give way to fund that. However, it would suddenly mean that it would be hugely cheaper for students from England, Wales and Northern Ireland to attend universities in Scotland. My noble friend says that is ridiculous, but of course that would be the consequence.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
That is the position for Greeks, German, French, Italians and everybody else in Europe—that it is considerably cheaper for them to come to Scotland, where they get a free education relative to England. It is a ridiculous argument.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
It is not a ridiculous argument at all, because it is very difficult if you are a student coming from Greece, where English might not necessarily be the language in which you would more readily study. It is far simpler if you are coming from Carlisle to go to Edinburgh than it would be to go to Birmingham. I can assure my noble friend that when tuition fees were increased in England and variable fees were brought in, in around 2004, there was clear evidence—which I was presented with as the then Minister with responsibility for higher and further education—that that would have a considerable impact on cross-border flow, and that was something that we had to address. Indeed, we did address it.
Lord Flight
I point out to the Minister that Ireland charges extremely low tuition fees at universities. This has not led to a huge increase in the number of British students going to Irish universities.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
The point I was making was that there was clear evidence, which we were looking at in about 2003 or 2004, in an overall review we did of higher education at that time in Scotland, that a differential where Scotland was much cheaper than England, Wales or Northern Ireland would have a considerable impact. I totally subscribe to what noble Lords have said in this debate—that the essence of many of our universities, the advantage of them and the thing that gives richness to student life, is the fact that you are shoulder to shoulder with people from many different backgrounds, nationalities and cultures. I subscribe to that overwhelmingly. But it is naive in the extreme to think that, if university tuition in Scotland was free for students from England, it would not have some quite material effect on the numbers applying.
Lord Sutherland of Houndwood
I thank the noble and learned Lord for giving way and I promise not to intervene again, but there is a further argument in this area that is relevant. If Scotland is not charging fees for students who come from the continent but England is, there will be a displacement of students from continental bases to Scotland. Last time I did a back-of-the-envelope calculation, European Union students were costing Scotland between £80 million and £90 million a year. That could grow as an unintended consequence of the policies. I am not questioning good faith or decisions taken constitutionally in the right way; I am just saying that we really are creating consequences, and that is another one that we ought to look at very carefully.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I think that actually supports the argument that I was just making—that if the numbers are going up from European Union countries, a fortiori the numbers would increase from other parts of the United Kingdom. That is something that would have to be addressed. I do not think that my noble friend has actually thought that through.
Just as the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, said to the noble Lord, Lord Browne, that he might have to talk to the leadership of his party before the matter comes back at the next stage, so my noble friend Lord Forsyth said that I should draw this matter to the attention of the Prime Minister and my noble friend Lord Maclennan asked that we think about this before Report stage. I do not think that it would be a service to the House if I did any other than say that obviously we have to reflect on the very strong views that have been expressed in this debate.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart
I am grateful to my noble and learned friend for what he has just said, but the principle that my noble friend Lord Forsyth has advocated is one that could conceivably be important—not in the light of our previous experience, because that kind of discrimination has been anathema in the United Kingdom, but in establishing this precedent, which one can see being extended to other spheres. That might include the domicile of people taken into care because of illness in Scotland. If they happened to be domiciled in England, they might be subject to much higher charges, and that by law. There is a very important principle here, which I hope will not be confined just to education, although education is the immediate reason why we need to discuss these things.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I recognise the principle that my noble friend is enunciating. That is why I said that we do not know what the consequences would be of the amendment proposed by my noble friend Lord Forsyth. It goes right to the heart of the architecture of the Scotland Act—to Section 29, which makes certain legislation not law, as I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, remembers well from the days of the passage of the Bill in 1998. To add this as a principle of devolution when its possible consequences have not been thought through is something that I would not wish to accede to without much greater thought as to what its implications might be.
I conclude by making that commitment but I also have to conclude with the other principle—the principle of devolution. Inevitably, if you devolve matters, Governments may not choose the course that you would wish to see. It is probably not unfair to say that Mr Tony Blair was not entirely happy when he learnt what the Scottish Government were proposing in 1999 about abolishing tuition fees and bringing back more generous student grants, but he accepted that that was one consequence of devolution. If we pursue a line that has been sometimes advocated today, we run the risk of undermining the purpose of devolution. Differences in policies can develop, and we will not always agree with those differences. But if we constantly fight against the differences and produce ad hoc legislation if something comes up that we do not like—even if we do not like it with a considerable passion—we must do so with great care, because there is a principle of devolution that could be well undermined if we do that.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
I will deal with that very point. I started by saying very much what the Minister has said in his last few words. I am very aware of that sensitivity. I will come back to this in a few minutes, but I am really grateful to the Minister for agreeing to take this away and reflect on it. When he expresses the view to his colleagues, I hope he will make it clear that this is an all-party, cross-bench, overwhelming, united, passionate and powerful message from the House of Lords. We have had people from all the parties, with lots of graduates from Scottish universities and other universities, all powerfully talking in one direction. That is a message to get over: we may be non-elected, but some of us have been elected in other places for long periods and have a lot of experience. I hope that message will get through.
I will make two points before I come to my last general point. First, on unintended consequences that arise, the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, said this was a question of domicile, not nationality, which is absolutely right. Let me tell the Committee of one of the unintended consequences. Early last year, a Tory Peer—I will not name him—told me that he already knows of relatively well-off people who are buying up flats in Edinburgh to establish domicile there, so that they will not have to pay fees. That is the kind of thing that happens—and no, it was not the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, saying that. Just as others have said, those who are relatively well off might pay the fees while others can get what I might call a domicile of convenience, so as to not pay them. They will eventually sell the flat, or whatever, and manage to reap some profit on that.
My second point is on what the noble Lord, Lord MacGregor, and, again, the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, said about the Barnett formula. There is an amendment tabled for later in this Committee from my noble friend Lord Barnett himself—I call him Lord Formula—to have this revised. He has wanted that done for some time. We know that, per capita, it is exceptionally generous to Scotland. That is why the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament have been able not just to keep free higher education but free prescriptions and free personal care as well, all of which is building up tremendous resentment south of the border. There is a feeling here that the taxpayers south of the border are paying for all those better services. We heard that expressed in a previous debate in this House by Members from England, and it is a very strongly held feeling.
I urge the Minister to think about the consequences. There is of course another way of dealing with this, which is how Mike Russell, the Education Minister in Scotland, wants to deal with it. He wants to end the anomaly by stopping allowing European students in for free. He wants to go to Commissioner Vassiliou and say, “Let's have this changed so that we don’t have this obligation”. I do not think he will succeed in that—I think it will be impossible for him to succeed in that—but let us think of what he is trying to do. He is trying to make it financially difficult not just for English, Welsh and Northern Irish students but for European students to come to Scottish universities. My noble friend Lord O'Neill spoke about the Caledonian closet. Can your Lordships imagine Scottish universities reverting to what they were centuries ago when Glasgow, for example, had just students from around the Glasgow area? They would become narrow, introverted and isolationist universities and not in the old tradition of Scottish universities. I hope that we will not move in that direction.
The Minister was genuinely helpful and I hope that he will take it away, as he said, and discuss it. I listened very carefully to my noble friend Lord Browne. I think that he supported me in principle and that he will take it away to look at in more detail. I will help him in that task. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, asked the Minister to talk to the Prime Minister about it. Can I add the Deputy Prime Minister, just to make sure that it is all squared with both parts of the coalition? Will the Minister also talk to the Scottish Government about it and say that there is a strength of feeling, there are anomalies and there may be other ways around it? Will he ask them to consider the options for ending an unfair and discriminatory arrangement? We have some time until Report stage to do that. We are not going to finish this Committee stage until late in March so we will probably not get to Report until April.
I hope that the Minister will go away and talk sincerely to them. I know that he is busy with other things, but I hope that he can take some time out to talk to people about this anomaly, which clearly upsets so many people, not just in this Chamber but, far more importantly, outside it, and try to find a fair and equitable solution. On that basis, I shall withdraw the amendment.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response to the debate which was very generous, giving what a beating he was subject to during it. I always used to say of my late learned friend Nicky Fairbairn that if I were on a murder charge I would have him defend me. In the absence of Nicky, given that my noble and learned friend made a good job of a pretty limited set of arguments, that accolade may fall to him. We do not need to think about the future to see what is going to happen in the future. Only this week the UCAS figures were published. They show, surprise surprise, that more Scottish and European students, but fewer English students, are going to Scottish universities.
I feel a bit alarmed by the interests that were declared by my noble friends Lord MacGregor, a former Secretary of State for Education, and Lord Sanderson. I suppose I ought to declare a grandson, whom I am taking to the rugby on Saturday.; he will be supporting England and I will be supporting Scotland. He is only 13, but I would not like to think that his choice of university should be in any way limited by where he lives in the United Kingdom.
I do not normally disagree with my noble friend Lord Flight, but he has made some remarks about Irish universities. I ought to declare another interest: my youngest daughter went to Trinity College, Dublin. When she decided to go there, I thought that it would cost me an arm and a leg but it was free because there are no fees in Ireland. The consequence of that has been that a number of English students go to Trinity College, Dublin, but the university limits the number that it will accept and the result is that now you need to get four As, I think, in order to be able to go there. A distortion is being created not just in residency or wealth but also in the ability of the students. Only very able students from Europe are able to get into these universities.
I do not know whether or not it is legal to have a quota, but it is a remarkable argument. “Independence in Europe” was the slogan, and the whole idea of Europe—which, I confess, has been distorted—is that it is an open, single market where you have free movement of labour. That is the attractive part of the idea. It seems to be a complete distortion to argue that we are in favour of a single market throughout Europe but not within the United Kingdom. That argument will lead to fragmentation, which is precisely why Mr Salmond and his friends support it.
I will not detain the Committee; we will return to this. However, I want to pick up a couple of points that the Minister made. It is not right that an English student wanting to go to a Scottish university will to have to pay the same fees, because in Scotland we have four-year degrees. Personally, I would be very sad to see the end of the four-year degree system, but that may also be an unintended consequence of the distortion that has been created.
The Minister, speaking from the Dispatch Box, said something which absolutely horrified me, and which I hope will not be the general policy of the Government. He said that it would not be appropriate for him to comment from this Dispatch Box on the policies of the Scottish Government. Excuse me—this is part of the United Kingdom. The devolution Bill—the Scotland Bill—gave powers to the Scottish Parliament to exercise, but the powers to legislate on these matters remain with us. It is entirely appropriate for Ministers at the Dispatch Box to comment on the policies of the Scottish Executive—not Government, Scottish Executive—particularly if they affect the people of the rest of the United Kingdom. That is the kind of principle that I would expect to hear being enunciated by Mr Salmond and the separatists. It is the duty of this House to look at the consequences of the Scottish Executive’s policy and their impact not just on Scotland but on the rest of the United Kingdom. I hope that my noble friend will take this away and consider it very carefully indeed. There has not been a single speech in support of the current position. I believe that if we were to divide the Committee and people knew what they were voting for, there would be a jam in one of the Lobbies and the Minister would be searching for tellers. This matter needs to be looked at very carefully.
The noble Lord and I did not confer on this issue at all. We both tabled amendments because we are both aware of the feeling on this matter. I put down my amendment as an amendment of principle because it seems to me that the principle of devolution should be that policies which affect Scotland are made in Scotland and that the Scottish Parliament should be responsible for them, but that in so doing—this is an important principle—people in the rest of the United Kingdom should not be disadvantaged vis-à-vis other European Union citizens. If I had put down an amendment that said the Scottish Parliament should have the power to legislate in a way which discriminates against people in England, Northern Ireland and Wales but not other EU citizens, it would have been laughed out of court. That appears to be the position of the Government—that they are prepared to have a status quo of that kind.
I do not see this as being something that might have unintended consequences; it seems to me to be central to the whole philosophy of devolution. I find myself in a very surprising position in having to explain the philosophy of devolution as I have not been a strong supporter of it because I thought that it would lead to exactly the difficulties which we are now encountering. However, that is water under the bridge. If we are to maintain the United Kingdom, we have to make it work. Setting boundaries and a framework seems to me a more appropriate way of going forward than limiting the scope in particular areas of policy. But in whichever direction we go, we need to resolve this problem one way or the other. One way of dealing with it would be to say that the fees of those students who go from England to Scottish universities are picked up by the Department for Education and that the money is taken off the block grant to the Scottish Parliament. There is a whole range of ways of doing it. I think that would probably be the most provocative way of doing it. There are other ways of doing it but I urge my noble and learned friend and his colleagues to think carefully about the best way of doing it, perhaps as my noble friend Lord Maclennan said, in consultation with the Scottish Government. We cannot go on like this.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
“Rail passenger services
(1) In Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the 1998 Act, section E2 (rail transport) is amended as follows.
(2) In the exceptions insert—
“Services for the carriage of passengers by railway which start and finish in Scotland, including the power to decide who will run such services, the provisions of the Railways Act 1993 notwithstanding.”
(3) In the interpretation insert—
““Services for the carriage of passengers by railway” has the meaning given by section 82 of the Railways Act 1993.””
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
My Lords, I shall be very brief on this because I know that we have some of the most distinguished lawyers from Scotland waiting in the wings to talk about the Supreme Court. I am looking forward to hearing them do so.
This amendment was moved by my colleague Thomas Docherty in the Commons and has the support of the trade unions. It comprises a simple, technical new clause. Most people think that the Scottish Parliament already has the power to decide on the model for the ScotRail franchise, or for the franchise in Scotland. After all, it has to fund that franchise through its Ministers and it is responsible for the letting of the franchise. It is also responsible for funding the building of new railways in Scotland. We have successfully given greater powers to Scottish Ministers to do everything except determine the model of that franchise. I will not argue that a switch to a not-for-dividend model would necessarily be the best. The issue is that Scottish Ministers must let the franchise according to a privatised model. I am not saying that that is wrong; I am just saying that they should have freedom to decide what the model should be. I hope that noble Lords, particularly the Minister, will note that I am suggesting additional powers for Scottish Ministers and the Scottish Parliament, which would be welcome.
The Earl of Mar and Kellie
My Lords, one of the curiosities of the current rail franchising process is that while the British Government and, presumably, the Scottish Government cannot offer to run the railways directly, there is no opposition to foreign national Governments—through, for example, Deutsche Bahn or SNCF—running franchises in the United Kingdom.
Lord Boyd of Duncansby
My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for tabling the amendment, which was debated in the other place. It seeks to rectify what appears to be an omission from the Scotland Act 1998 and subsequently the Railways Act 2005, which devolved significant powers over the ScotRail franchise, including its funding and licensing as well as responsibility for new rail lines for the network, yet neglected to devolve the power to determine the model of that franchise. Of course, it would not be appropriate to devolve responsibility for cross-border services, but that is not what the amendment seeks to address. It is clear that the amendment relates to services that begin and end in Scotland.
When this matter was debated in another place, as my noble friend indicated, we seemed to get side-tracked—if that is not an inappropriate way of putting it—down a spectre of renationalisation, which was not the purpose of the amendment. The Parliamentary Under-Secretary failed to address the central issue that the amendment poses regarding whether it is consistent with the spirit of the devolution settlement that the power to determine the nature of a discrete Scottish franchise, in relation to which the Scottish Government already have considerable responsibility, should be reserved.
I ask the noble and learned Lord the Minister to say what the position is in Wales and, more fundamentally, why the Government believe it is necessary and proper to retain powers to determine the franchise model of a self-contained Scottish rail service where the franchise is granted by the Scottish Government.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, gave a fair analysis or description of what his amendment is intended to do. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, said that this might just be an oversight in the original arrangements. The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, said that it was too small a matter for the Calman commission. I think that quite a significant change is proposed; it is not a small matter at all. The fact that I do not recall any representation on or consideration of it as part of the Calman commission may say something about whether there is widespread support for it.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, asked why legislative competence has not gone hand-in-hand with executive competence. I think I am right to say that executive devolution was not present in the 1998 Act, but was subsequently negotiated between the then Scottish Executive—I think that Mr Henry McLeish took a role in that—and the Labour Government. The agreement reached was one of executive devolution. The Labour Government did not think it right at that stage to extend legislative devolution, and that continues to be the position of this Government. The Government are committed to maintaining a GB-wide national rail network which is publicly specified and funded in the public interest but which is provided by the private sector.
It is important to recognise the substantial executive devolved powers which Scottish Ministers have in relation to railways. They include giving general guidance to the Office of Rail Regulation, giving notice of their requirements for the outputs of the rail network in Scotland and the level of public funding available to the Office of Rail Regulation and publishing a Scottish railway strategy. They also have power to designate, let, fund, manage and enforce Scottish franchises and publish a statement of policy on franchising; to set fares; to publish a code of practice protecting the interests of disabled passengers; to appoint a member of the Passengers’ Council; to give financial assistance to any person for the purpose of developing Scottish railways; and to publish freight grants schemes for Scotland. Indeed, they have considerably more powers than that. Of course, the Scottish Executive have also taken considerable initiatives in building and constructing new railways—my noble friend Lord Mar and Kellie is probably a personal beneficiary of the railway from Stirling to Alloa—so substantial powers are already available.
However, as I said, we believe that devolved powers are best exercised within a coherent GB structure, as provided for under the Railways Acts 1993 and 2005. It is essential that the overall regime for the provision of rail passenger services and their regulation remains a reserved matter. It would not be sensible to run the railway in such a way that the Scottish Parliament through legislative devolution could overturn the framework that governs the operation of passenger services in Great Britain as a whole.
The noble and learned Lord raised the question of Wales. I will certainly confirm the position, but the fact that we wish to keep a GB structure means that there is no legislative devolution to the Welsh Assembly.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
What I am proposing would not overturn the structure of the railways in Great Britain as a whole, as the Minister just said, but is merely filling a little gap in the model, the kind of franchise that can be agreed by the Scottish Executive and the Scottish Parliament. It is a small but important addition and it would not disturb the rest of the railways in the United Kingdom. I hope that he will give it some serious consideration.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I think it would, if we take it that GB includes Scotland. If Scotland could have a different model from that operating in the rest of Great Britain, that would amount to a material change. We believe that the right balance is in place. It was a balance struck not by this Administration but by the previous one, and not just as part of the original legislation but as one for which specific consideration was given for a Section 30 order. The arrangement struck the right balance and I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock
On every previous occasion, I have said that I am really grateful to the Minister for listening carefully to the arguments and being sympathetic, accepting some of the arguments and going away and looking at the amendment. In this case, I am disappointed. I could have gone on at much greater length arguing the case, but I have some concern for my noble friends the eminent lawyers from Scotland and we need to get on to the issue of the Supreme Court. However, this is an important issue. The trade unions feel strongly about it. I know that the Scottish Government would welcome this change. It seemed to have some support in the House of Commons, and would be a coherent arrangement.
The noble Earl, Lord Mar and Kellie, is a very quietly spoken Member of this House and always speaks exceptionally briefly, but in this case his point was really quite a remarkable Exocet. In his brilliant intervention, he said that whereas there could be no public ownership so far as Britain was concerned, in relation to United Kingdom interests, French, German or Dutch railways—all three are publicly owned—would have no problem at all in buying into and taking over this franchise. That is a serious anomaly. It might be best to have some kind of United Kingdom or Scottish structure different from the current ScotRail structure to deal with it. I hope that the Minister will give further consideration to this between now and Report so that we can avoid a rather longer debate then. Nevertheless, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Sewel
“Nuclear Power
In Part 2 of Schedule 5 to the 1998 Act, under head D4 (nuclear energy) omit—“ExceptionsThe subject-matter of—(a) Part I of the Environmental Protection Act 1990, and(b) the Radioactive Substances Act 1993.””
Lord Sewel
My Lords, I hope that we can get through this in under 12 minutes and break the Foulkes record. Right at the beginning, I will come clean: this is purely a probing amendment, which means we can totally disregard the detail. I can only apologise if some poor civil servant somewhere has spent hours drafting notes on Part 1 of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 and the Radioactive Substances Act 1993. I am sorry, but that was my way of getting the issue on to the agenda.
Quite simply, the issue is my concern whether, at a time when energy security is one of the greatest challenges that we face, we have the appropriate legislative framework to enable the implementation of a strategic British energy policy. It would be totally inadequate to try to deal with the issue of energy security by fragmenting policy so that you have English, Scottish and Welsh energy policies. The task that we face is too great for that sort of small, narrow-minded approach.
Schedule 5 to the 1998 Act reserved virtually all areas of energy policy: electricity, oil and gas, coal and nuclear energy; there are a number of exceptions and they are in the original Act. There has also been a degree of executive devolution since then. The reservation of energy was done quite deliberately in 1998, with the view that strategic energy policy was best devised and implemented at a British level. The point that I want to explore with the Minister is whether we are still capable of implementing a strategic British energy policy. This is where I use the peg of nuclear: we have to take account of the specific contribution that nuclear power can play. We have heard from the Scottish Government that they will not be allowed to build new nuclear power stations in Scotland, and that is a major factor in the debate on energy policy. Is the Minister satisfied that the Scottish Parliament and Scottish Ministers have powers which would enable them to prevent the construction of nuclear power stations in Scotland and, if that is the case, is it really possible or credible to think in terms of British energy policy?
Lord Maclennan of Rogart
My Lords, I support the thoughts lying behind this amendment. When approached recently by an American company which indicated the desire to establish a small nuclear research plant in Scotland to develop nuclear power on a small scale, I was rather shocked to be advised by the Department of Energy and Climate Change that, because of the planned powers for the Scottish Parliament and the declared expression of intent to allow no nuclear developments in Scotland, this approach, which would have brought significant employment to Scotland, was to be denied.
I know that there are different attitudes to nuclear power in different parts of Scotland. I know, for example, that my noble and learned friend’s former constituents were always a little unhappy about what was happening across the Pentland Firth at Dounreay. Equally, my noble and learned friend will recall the satisfaction of my former constituents that nuclear power was being developed and researched on the north coast of Britain as part of a strategic policy on energy development. It is rather unfortunate, to say the least, that the good will of those in that particular area towards nuclear power is to be overlooked and that the possibility of replacement in the research field is to be denied when the Dounreay nuclear establishment is finally decommissioned.
My comments, like those of the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, are probing. It appears that the original intentions of devolution in respect to energy policy have been effectively stymied by matters which will not necessarily proceed to be related directly to the strategic questions. Having policies for different parts of the United Kingdom in relation to energy, which transcends even existing national frontiers, is almost certainly unwise. Indeed, I think that when the Prime Minister came back from the European Council the other day, he talked about enlarging the scope of the European Union in respect of energy policy. Therefore, we seem to have two standards here—one relating to how we deal with Europe and one relating to how we deal with internal matters—and I think that these anomalies need to be sorted out. However, as I said, this is merely a probing inquiry.
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan
I should like to follow my colleagues on this issue because for some time I was chairman of the Nuclear Industry Association. My connection with that organisation has now been terminated, so I do not have to declare an interest but I still have great affection and respect for the industry.
It is certainly fair to say that an amendment of this kind has to be probing in character because, to be realistic, we do not really want to face the prospect of a planning challenge at this time on nuclear matters. I do not think it would be reasonable to say that there is fantastic demand in Scotland for Hunterston C and D being constructed at this time. However, by 2015 or 2016, we will have the large plant directive in place and, therefore, Cockenzie power station, which is relative small, will probably be closed and we will also have the prospect of Longannet, which is the massive linchpin of Scottish power generation, operating under severe constraints as a consequence of the large plant directive.
Torness will probably carry on until 2025, given likely extensions if the safety codes are met. Within the next eight years investment decisions will have to be taken as far as replacement base load generation is concerned. It ought to be made as clear as possible what restraints there are on the possibility of the planning powers of the Scottish devolved Parliament being constrained or changed or being ignored, if that were possible. If energy is a reserved power, does the power to frustrate through the planning process necessarily enable a Scottish Parliament to deny the people of Scotland and the United Kingdom the contribution that a power station on the scale of Torness could offer?
It is suggested that the nuclear industry is somehow alien to Scotland, that we do not have anything to do with it, and the plutonophobes, in their separatist windmills, forget that probably as much credit has to go to James Clerk Maxwell as anyone for the development of nuclear power. Through companies like the Weir Group and through a variety of other groups like Renfrew-based Doosan Babcock, the nuclear power industry is very vibrant and strong in a lot of areas of Scotland. Although it does not enjoy the weekend press releases that we get for the somewhat immature, renewable technologies—immature in the sense that they are barely proven and barely out of the laboratory—in its hands will lie the economic success of Scotland.
It is true that we will still have gas-fired power stations, but it is quite likely that, if the carbon capture and storage technologies are developed, they will try to apply them to that form of generation as well. If that happens, it will severely restrict even the capability of the gas-fired power stations to make a proper contribution to our energy needs. I make the point that, although today it is not an important issue, we still have some time to go before a Torness replacement has to be considered. There will be uncertainties about the continuing generating capability of our main stations by 2015. Not all of us are quite as optimistic about the contribution, 24/7, base load in character, that can be made at present by renewable power stations.
Therefore, it is important that an issue of this nature is afforded some clarity. That is why I am very grateful to my noble friend Lord Sewel for raising it. We are not asking for the earth to move or anything like that; we are merely asking for some clarity from the Advocate-General on this question.
The Earl of Mar and Kellie
My Lords, is this not a matter of Scottish democracy? I suggest that in 2016, the Labour Party in Scotland needs to come forward—providing it is prepared to put up with the description of being nuclear Labour—with the type of policy that will presumably be substantially different from the policy continuing to be put out by the current Scottish Government.
Lord Browne of Ladyton
My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Earl, Lord Mar and Kellie, who asked a legitimate question. If there are advocates for the policy, they should be heard in Scotland and the Scottish people should make their decision. Nobody could criticise my noble friend Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan for being a shrinking violet in this regard. He speaks with authority and obvious knowledge about the benefits of nuclear energy and the role that it should play in the mixed energy economy of Great Britain. I accept the noble Earl's challenge and thank my noble friend Lord Sewel for giving me the opportunity to outline, in a couple of minutes, some of the basic points about a single GB energy market in which nuclear energy will play a part.
The existence of a single GB energy market is manifestly to the benefit of Scotland and to the rest of our island. It allows the sharing of resources, risks and rewards. The development of renewable energy capacity in Scotland depends largely on substantial support from that market. As noble Lords said, energy is in the main a reserved matter under the Scotland Act. However, through the exercise of devolved power over the planning system, the current Scottish Government are able to prevent new nuclear plants being built in Scotland. They have said that it is a matter of ideology and that that is what they will do.
As noble Lords heard, Scotland produces a not insignificant proportion of its electricity through the nuclear power stations at Hunterston and Torness. I have noted in my short time in your Lordships' House the development of the concept of declaring an interest. I do not declare this as an interest, but it may be of interest to Members of the House that as a student I was involved, as a McAlpine fusilier, in building the Hunterston B power station. I remember being handsomely rewarded for my work and benefiting from the great advantage that in those days, students did not pay any tax on a substantial part of their income. Therefore, in a small way I contributed to the energy security of our country. Since Hunterston is a nuclear power station, it will be a lasting legacy—although perhaps not a legacy of which everyone would be proud.
At times of peak demand, Scotland, which produces a significant amount of energy, imports electricity generated by nuclear power stations in England. Under a separate Scottish energy policy—God forbid that there should ever be one—that would have to continue, in order to maintain base load power and to prevent the lights going out in Scotland. However, both Hunterston and Torness will come to the end of their operating life in the next few years, as we heard—although one or other may continue, depending on the safety case. The position of the SNP Scottish Government on nuclear energy appears contradictory. They seem happy to import the energy from England, but impose a policy of no nuclear energy in Scotland on ideological grounds. This does not seem to be a point of principle or ideology. It is a political issue in Scotland that works in their favour in the mean time, but will not in the longer term.
The noble and learned Lord the Minister is not here to answer for the Scottish Government, and I do not ask him to. However, perhaps in his closing remarks he will indicate what he understands the position to be in relation to the extension of the life of nuclear plants currently operating in Scotland. I have reason to believe that there will be a positive response from the Scottish Government to the life extension of these stations, for the obvious practical reason that there is no substitute for them in the offing. If that is the case, where does the ideology lie? Where is the point of principle if the life of these plants can be extended but new ones cannot be built?
I am conscious of the time, and I do not want to detain the Committee unnecessarily. I have made the points I want to make. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Sewel, who has provided the Committee with a good opportunity to remind itself of the one irrefutable fact: the benefit of a single GB energy market. The whole of Britain, including Scotland, benefits from this market. It makes no sense to break it up, and we should continue to try to protect that market.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, for introducing this issue. I take the point he made that the pegs on which he hangs it are perhaps not details that he wishes to address. Rather he wishes to open up the wider issue of energy policy and, more specifically, nuclear energy policy with regard to the devolution settlement.
That said, it is important to note that decommissioning gives rise to important issues regarding substantial amounts of nuclear waste. We do well to remember that decommissioning the civil nuclear legacy and managing the radioactive waste produced as a result is a joint project across the UK, and the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority reports to both Scottish and UK Ministers, although it is funded centrally by the UK Government through DECC. There have been good working relationships on that point.
The noble Lord, Lord Sewel, raised the more general question about energy policy. The balance that has been struck, with the United Kingdom in the driving seat with regard to UK energy policy, is one that we endorse. The Calman commission received a number of representations on these issues and indicated that it believed that a UK-wide approach is essential to ensure a continuing national supply, that international targets and obligations are met and that consumers have access to a competitive and modern energy market. It concluded that the current arrangements remain appropriate and provide a balance between powers appropriately exercised at devolved and reserved levels, although it encouraged proper engagement between the two Governments.
The UK nuclear energy policy has been set out in the national policy statement EN6, which was ratified in 2011. I am grateful that my noble friend the Minister at DECC is in his place. He will, no doubt, correct me if I get any of this wrong. This national policy statement provides for enough sites across the United Kingdom for a significant build programme going forward for new nuclear sites. I do not know the detail of the extension times for currently operational nuclear power stations. Scotland currently has five nuclear power stations, three of which are in the process of being decommissioned—Hunterston A, Dounreay and Chapelcross—and two are still operational—Hunterston B and Torness. There is also an MoD site, as my noble friend Lord Maclennan will know, the Vulcan Naval Reactor Test Establishment adjacent to Dounreay, which ran a test reactor for the nuclear submarine programme. I will get confirmation to the noble Lord, Lord Browne, about the remaining lifetime of those plants.
I think it is fair to say that the noble Lord perceives that there may be some inconsistency in the view taken by the Scottish Government with regard to extension as opposed to their stated view with regard to new build.
Lord O'Neill of Clackmannan
I may be of some small assistance here. It is my understanding that life extension would be the responsibility of the Nuclear Installations Inspectorate. A safety case has to be advanced. Were that to have construction implications that required planning, that might cause a wee bit of a problem, but the basic case has to be satisfactory in the eyes of the Nuclear Installations Inspectorate.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I am sure the noble Lord is absolutely right. At the core of this—maybe not the right word—at the heart of it is the safety case, which would be determined by the independent Nuclear Installations Inspectorate. The noble Lord raised the point, which we will come on to, about other issues leading to issues about planning. It is not only planning because in 1999 there was executive devolution that transferred to Scottish Ministers powers under Section 36 of the Electricity Act with regard to giving permission for power stations in excess of 50 megawatts, and that would include any future nuclear power stations.
I perhaps interpret the concerns to include how that would operate. To be fair, more generally in planning it probably makes sense to have planning powers. In the debate on the then Scotland Bill, the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, said that,
“an Act of the Scottish parliament containing provisions about water pollution from coal-mines or dust from open-cast coal-mining would affect the reserved matter of coal-mining. If the courts were to apply a literal approach, they could hold that these provisions related to the reserved matter and would therefore be beyond the legislative competence of the Scottish parliament. This would make a nonsense of the devolution of pollution control”.—[Official Report, 21/7/98; col. 819.]
There is some good sense that there should be planning considerations.
I should also perhaps draw to the attention of the Committee a decision in the Outer House, Court of Session, last year by Lord McEwan in a petition of Dulce Packard and others for judicial review. He said:
“The best guidance is the Lewis case (the mixed redevelopment at Redcar on Teesside). It is quite clear from the case that the Minister’s position is quite different from someone holding a judicial or quasi judicial office. All the Minister has to do is to consider genuinely the inquiry report and the objections”.
Clearly, we have not yet had any application. But he went on to quote from the Lewis case and the judgment of Lord Justice Rix.
“So the test would be whether there is an appearance of predetermination in the sense of a mind closed to the planning merits of the decision in question”.
It would be wrong to speculate what would happen if any company applied for planning permission and was turned down. It is a high test, which I think Lord McEwan made clear. Nevertheless, he went on to say that the,
“test is applicable, the fair minded and informed observer must be taken to appreciate that predisposition is not predetermination”.
But evidence of predetermination might be relevant.
I had better stop there because one never knows when one might find oneself having to go down that path. In saying this, I hope I can give some assurance that the Government believe that the balance in the Scotland Act is right. As I have indicated, the national policy statement, which was ratified last year, provides for enough sites across the United Kingdom for a sufficient build programme going forward for nuclear sites. With these remarks, I hope the noble Lord feels that he has probed successfully. I am afraid that we have taken twice 12 minutes, but it has been a useful debate and I hope that he will withdraw his amendment.
Lord Sewel
I thank all noble Lords who have contributed. In reply to a point made earlier, I am not advocating a nuclear power policy for Scotland. I am advocating a British energy policy to deal with the issue of energy security. It cannot be done at the level of the individual component parts of Great Britain. We need to work together to have a policy covering the whole country.
I think that we are very reluctant to go too far on the planning point. But the noble and learned Lord will remember that the vires test in the 1998 Bill that left the House of Commons was not the same as the vires test that became the Act. Let me put it this way: that change was in part as a result of discussions that were very close to the type of discussion that we have had today. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord McCluskey
My Lords, this debate is scheduled to finish at 7 pm, which gives us slightly over two hours. That is unfortunate because on a Thursday afternoon, particularly when the House does not sit on the Friday, there are few Scots to be found after this hour, and I fear that even some of those who are smiling at me now will shortly depart for trains and planes to take them north to what no doubt is important business. I have tried to make my contribution by withdrawing 12 of the amendments I had down on the Marshalled List before the debate today, but it is a pity that we lost an hour at the beginning of the day to the debate occasioned by the Leader of the House having to deal with issues of privilege in another place.
I am quite certain that we are all agreed that Clause 17 will have to go, so I need not spend too much time on the detail, but I want to say something about the background. Unfortunately, because of the grouping of the amendments, for what I understand are good technical reasons, we have to deal with a large number of quite different matters all at the same time, so I am afraid that I shall have to rise to my feet more than once in order to make separate submissions in relation to several different matters.
Clause 17 was added in another place at the Report stage. No explanation about it was given at that point, although the Minister and the Opposition said a few words a little later at Third Reading. The history of the matter is this. The Scottish judiciary first raised issues in relation to the exercise by the Supreme Court of its jurisdiction, which had been conferred in a late provision that was added to the Scotland Act 1998. Calman did not deal with it, but the Advocate-General for Scotland wisely appointed an expert committee under Sir David Edward and others, including the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, to deal with the matter. The committee went on to produce an excellent report so far as it went—I believe that we came to a logically better conclusion than can be shown in Clause 17, and I think the Minister accepts at least some of the points that have been made in relation to that.
The Report stage to which I have referred was taken on 22 June or thereabouts. The first report of the review group, which I had the honour to chair, was published on 24 June, so at that point we had had no opportunity to comment on the clause. I had a group of very distinguished people under my chairmanship: you could not have a more learned lawyer in the law in Scotland today than Sir Gerald Gordon, who is the finest scholar of Scots law probably for centuries; Charles Stoddart has massive experience as an author and as director of judicial training in Scotland; and Professor Neil Walker has an international reputation on constitutional law and practice. Perhaps I may say for clarification that when the First Minister asked me to chair the group, he started to say that he would give me the names of the people who would join it. I said, “No, I will give you the names”, and I proceeded to give him these names apart from that of Professor Walker, whom I did not know. The First Minister said, “May I suggest Professor Walker?” and I said, “Give me 24 hours and I will say yes or no”. I looked into Professor Walker’s background and consulted my colleagues, and we decided that he would be a valuable member of the group, which indeed he proved to be.
We had no axe to grind whatever. We almost resigned over the appalling remarks made by the First Minister and the Secretary for Justice about the Supreme Court justices at the time, but we decided that it was our duty to do our best because, while that row would pass, these provisions might last for a very long time.
We had only three weeks to produce our first report, and at that stage we could not consult widely. However, we had until mid-September to produce our second report and we then did consult widely. We put the tentative conclusions we had reached in the first report out to consultation and we met with many parties. The report is now available on the Government website, and it makes it clear that many people responded to us. A number of interviews are reproduced. I personally met with a number of senior judges in Scotland, and on more than one occasion with the Advocate-General. He was always courteous enough to listen with great care to what we had to say and, indeed, to respond positively to a number of things.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
For the convenience of the Committee, I will just explain why we are supporting the proposal that the clause should not stand part and speak to the amendments that are in my name, to which the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, has proposed his own amendments. That might help some of the structure of the debate.
I start by thanking the noble and learned Lord for the way he introduced this issue and gave a very fair explanation as to how we got here via the judicial representations to the Calman commission, the expert group that I set up under the chairmanship of Sir David Edward, and the subsequent group, to which the First Minister appointed the noble and learned Lord to look at this issue. It is perhaps rare that legal issues get quite as much public prominence as these have had, but there are important issues here. The purpose of Clause 17 was to provide that questions as to whether acts of the Lord Advocate, acting as the head of the criminal prosecution service, were compatible with ECHR or EU law should not be devolution issues under the 1998 Act. Clause 17 provided a separate statutory right of appeal to the Supreme Court for these issues. Under the current Scotland Act, acts of the Lord Advocate acting as the head of the criminal prosecution system in Scotland that are not compatible with ECHR or EU law would be ultra vires by virtue of Section 57(2) of the Scotland Act 1998.
In order to take account of some of the recommendations from the committee chaired by the noble and learned Lord, we thought it better to seek to delete Clause 17 and bring forward new clauses, otherwise it was going to get very difficult and convoluted indeed. In doing so, as the noble and learned Lord pointed out, we have in fact taken on board the point about the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995. Many of the things we are doing seek to amend that.
The debate on Clause 17 and the issues that it raises has come a long way. Certainly during the summer there was a lot of heat, if not necessarily light, about the role of the Supreme Court in these matters. The finding in one of the main recommendations of the group under the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, that it was right and proper to retain appeal to the Supreme Court, allowed us to try to find a way forward that could command as much consensus as possible. There has been progress, and that progress and the fact that we have reached so many areas of agreement has been achieved by open dialogue, proper consultation and mature consideration on all sides. It is certainly in that spirit that I will consider the arguments that are made by noble Lords contributing to the debate this afternoon.
Lord McCluskey
On a point of order, I understood from our grouping notice this morning that we were going to discuss not just clause 17 stand part but Amendments 71 and 72 by the Advocate-General and the amendments to those amendments standing in my name.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, if I can assist here, my understanding is the same as that of the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey. I think that I said when I opened my remarks setting out my amendments that I was seeking not to wind up the debate but, if anything, to open it. There are important issues to be discussed, if it is possible to rewind so that we can have a debate on the amendments. There is an agreement that clause stand part should not take place.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Faulkner of Worcester)
The Committee will be free to debate the amendments when we reach them on the Marshalled List.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, if I may help the Committee, we cannot go backwards on the Marshalled List. We have decided that Clause 17 will not be part of the Bill.
Lord McCluskey
With respect, we are not going back on that: Clause 17 goes out. However, in the same grouping we have the right to discuss the new Amendments 71 and 72, although we cannot move those until we reach that part of the Bill on another day, but because they all raise the same issues the grouping that was arrived at allowed for us to discuss these after dealing with the clause stand part debate. Clause 17 goes out and no one seeks to change that, but we now need to look at Amendments 71 and 72 and the amendments proposed to those amendments.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, it may be helpful if I tell the noble and learned Lord that he has not lost the opportunity to speak to those amendments, but he will have to do so when they come up on the Marshalled List. He had the opportunity to speak to the amendments after my noble friend the Minister had spoken. However, the noble and learned Lord chose not to take that opportunity. The Question was put and has been decided, but I emphasise that the noble and learned Lord has not lost the opportunity to speak to the amendments in their place in the Marshalled List.
Lord Boyd of Duncansby
My Lords, may I ask a question? They are on the Marshalled List in this group; that is the point. We are all here ready to debate these issues. It would be very unfortunate if we now moved on to other business and came back to this issue; these all form part of a group.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom
I am in some difficulty because in listening to what the noble and learned Lord has already said about Clause 17 stand part, he justified his arguments by reference to later amendments in his name—namely, Amendments 71 and 72. It seems to me perfectly plain that these are before the Committee for discussion even though we may for the moment have swept Clause 17 out of the way—firmly batted it out of court. I ask your Lordships to reconsider the matter which has already been introduced because it would cause intense confusion if we passed over what the noble and learned Lord has already said in support of the amendments which will come in place of the displaced section at a later date.
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, we have put the Question on Clause 17 prematurely. I suggest that we continue the debate.
Lord McCluskey
My Lords, I am very grateful to the authorities and the noble Lord in the Chair in connection with this matter. I think we should deal with the amendments but I wonder whether the noble and learned Lord the Advocate-General would like to deal with Amendment 71 before I deal with the amendments to that amendment. Would that not be the proper way to proceed?
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, obviously, I am not formally moving the relevant amendments because we have not yet come to them but I think that I tried to deal with the content and the structure which we wished to achieve through the amendments. Although I cannot formally move them yet, I think that I have spoken to the substance of them and it might take the debate forward if the noble and learned Lord now makes his response.
Lord McCluskey
My Lords, I am perfectly happy to do that. Amendment 71A, which stands in my name, refers to line 11 of government Amendment 71 and proposes to insert the words,
“in the course of criminal proceedings”.
I want to emphasise that we are generally happy with the approach of Amendment 71: at least I am because I am happy that it deals with the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 rather than the 1998 Act—a point which I made earlier. However, the heading of the new clause, which is in bold on the Marshalled List, states:
“Convention rights and EU law: role of Advocate General in relation to criminal proceedings”.
First, I accept that we should deal with EU law as well as ECHR law, although our report did not find it necessary to go into that matter at all. This relates to criminal proceedings. The whole point is that Amendment 71 relates to the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995, and we are making provisions in subsection (3) on:
“Right of Advocate General to take part in proceedings”.
I believe that that should read, “take part in criminal proceedings”, for a reason that I shall come to shortly. The provision states, in terms, that:
“The Advocate General … may take part as a party in criminal proceedings so far as they relate to a compatibility issue”.
The compatibility issue is defined here for the purposes of all the proposed new sections, including those that I am proposing.
Subsection (2) of proposed new Section 288ZA states:
“In this section ‘compatibility issue’ means a question whether a public authority has acted (or proposes to act)”
in the way specified in proposed new paragraphs (a) and (b). Again, we ought, for clarity to insert the words, “in the course of criminal proceedings”. They merely add something that is perfectly obvious, but they have a bearing on the important issue as to whether or not questions arising in criminal proceedings might be treated as vires issues in the way mentioned by the noble and learned Lord when he was speaking a moment ago.
Therefore, my next amendment proposes to insert after “whether”:
“an Act of the Scottish Parliament or any provision of an Act of the Scottish Parliament is outside the legislative competence of the Parliament as being incompatible”.
This is an important issue because the Advocate-General has very properly decided that there should be an amendment to paragraph 1 of Schedule 6 to the 1998 Act. That change appears in the new clause proposed in Amendment 72. Subsection (3) states:
“In paragraph 1 of Schedule 6 …after sub-paragraph (f) insert—‘But a question arising in criminal proceedings in Scotland is not a devolution issue if it is a compatibility issue within the meaning of section 288ZA of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act”.
When one looks at that provision in subsection (2) of the new section proposed in Amendment 71, we find that a compatibility issue includes,
“whether a public authority has acted (or proposes to act) … in a way which is made unlawful by section 6(1)”.
I may be wrong about this, and I hope to hear the noble and learned Lord’s reply, but if a Member of the Scottish Parliament—particularly a Member of the Government—proposes a Bill in the Scottish Parliament that will breach a convention right, as specified in Section 6(1) of the Human Rights Act 1998, that is unlawful. Therefore, under the proposed new clause in Amendment 72, from which I quoted a moment ago, a question arising in criminal proceedings is not a devolution issue, if it is a compatibility issue within that meaning. The result is, I think—although I may be wrong, because this is difficult to follow—that if, in the course of a criminal trial, assuming that the noble and learned Lord’s amendments on these matters are accepted, a person states, “The Act under which I have prosecuted or which has a bearing upon the prosecution is beyond the competence of the Parliament”, it will instantly become a compatibility issue that is not a devolution issue. Therefore, the alternative route of using the vires provisions under Schedule 6, to which the Advocate-General refers, will not be available to anyone. In other words, there is only one route to take, which is what I want to happen.
On 17 January, the Advocate-General said to me in a letter, and repeated today:
“I am not minded to accept the Lord Advocate’s suggestion”—
a suggestion made by the Lord Advocate before the committee at which I spoke—
“that the new appeal should extend to questions as to whether an Act of the Scottish Parliament is compatible with ECHR or EU law. The suggestion would mean that if someone wishes to argue that an ASP is incompatible with the ECHR and that it also relates to reserved matters they would need to use the new appeal route in relation to the ECHR issue as well as the existing devolution issues appeal route”.
I think that his amendments knocked out the devolution issue and have given us what we want, but I would be interested to hear his view on that and whether there has been some confusion on the matter.
The other amendment which I should mention in this context bears on proposed new Section 288ZA in Amendment 71, where I propose to add in subsection (2),
“references to the course of criminal proceedings are to the period beginning with the detention or arrest of a person for an offence and ending with the pronouncing of the final interlocutor”.
The reason for that highly technical amendment is that it is possible that, before a person is detained or arrested, there might be by a public authority—whether the police or the BBC, for example—an invasion of his human right to a fair trial by saying things about the accused even before he is detained. We may need to look at that separately, but the amendment draws attention to the fact that there ought to be a definition as to when criminal proceedings begin in the Act, so as to leave it in no doubt. There have been difficult questions in past cases about when a person is charged, when he is detained, et cetera. Those words themselves are not crystal clear, but I want to make it crystal clear when criminal proceedings begin and when, for the purposes of compatibility issues, they end. That matter is covered by my Amendments 71A to 71C, which draw attention to what I think are problems arising from the framing of Amendment 71, which proposes the new clause.
Lord Boyd of Duncansby
I must say that I am somewhat confused as to where we are on all this and whether, for example, I have now to address the issue of certification. I am not entirely clear whether the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, has yet to address that issue.
However, first, as the noble and learned Lord observed, I was a member of the Advocate-General’s expert group looking at the issue of the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court. We welcome the progress that has been made by the noble and learned Lord and reflected in the government amendments. The expert group recommended that the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court should continue and should be focused on the role of the prosecutor, but that convention compliance in criminal should be outwith the jurisdiction or ambit of Section 57(2).
Lord McCluskey
I did not speak to that amendment. I agree that it may not be entirely necessary. However, as the noble and learned Lord knows, many a time have we put something in statute to make a clear point. Because there has been debate, including among lawyers, about whether the High Court of Justiciary is the final court except in relation to compatibility issues, there is something to be said for putting this in the Bill. I felt that that would be a way to do it. That was why I tabled the amendment. The intention was to underline a point that is implicit elsewhere in the Act and, as the noble and learned Lord said, is stated expressly in other Acts.
Lord Boyd of Duncansby
I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord for that. On the broad issue of references to the High Court and Supreme Court by the Lord Advocate and Advocate-General for Scotland, I will reserve my position and consider the matter in more detail. When I was Lord Advocate, I always thought that the opportunity for doing was important. I believe that I did it once. I also take the point made by the noble and learned Lord the Advocate-General that there may be issues around whether it would be better if any of the parties could ask the court to do this. I will consider that before Report. I think that I have dealt with most of the issues. Given the wide-ranging nature of the amendments in this group, I may have missed something. However, I hope I picked up on all the necessary points.
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, perhaps I may tell all noble Lords that they should feel free to comment on any amendments on the Marshalled List that relate to Clause 17.
Lord McCluskey
My Lords, I will comment in greater detail on the matter of certification. The lawyers among us will recognise that it arises in relation to various amendments, including Amendments 72B, 72C and 72D. The report of the review group that I chaired deals with the matter in paragraphs 35 onwards. No doubt the noble and learned Lord the Advocate-General has had a careful look at what was said there. We are dealing with a point of law of general public importance. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, referred to the philosophical objection: namely, that a court can prevent an appeal against its own decision. That is fairly common. However, in this case the English Court of Criminal Appeal, having considered that very matter, said that it did not arise because the issue of whether a case raises a point of law of general public importance is not the issue that was decided in the appeal. That empowers the Court of Appeal in England to prevent an appeal to the Supreme Court, but in various cases in England, the Court of Appeal and others have upheld that particular right on the ground that there must be a filter. I could refer your Lordships to some detail, but I shall not go into detail on that matter at this late hour.
In other words, the point to be considered is a point of law of general public importance, a different point from that considered in the appeal. Mention has been made of the case of Cadder in which leave was refused, but I am assured by judges who took part in that case and others that there can be no question that if someone had said to the court that that case raised a point of law of general public importance, the judges would have said that it did and a certificate would have been granted. Of course, there was no occasion to consider that because there was no law in Scotland requiring that to be done. The whole matter has been looked at in great detail in the English Court of Appeal and elsewhere in England, and your Lordships will find a very useful summary of the law in an article by CJS Knight in the Law Quarterly Review 2011 “Second criminal appeals and the requirement of certification”. I shall not read excerpts from that tonight because there is not really time.
Bearing in mind that the High Court of Justiciary has always been responsible for deciding all matters of substance, the only thing that changed in 1998 was the introduction of a new ground of appeal. That is what I said earlier, but I repeat it. Plainly, when the English and, indeed, the Northern Irish considered whether certification should apply to that, they decided implicitly that it would continue to apply there, so why should Scottish judges not be trusted to make the same judgment that is made in Northern Ireland and in the Court of Appeal Criminal Division in England about whether a case raises a point of law of general public importance? It is, in effect, to demean the Scottish judiciary to say that they cannot detach themselves sufficiently from the case in order to make that judgment.
Noble Lords who followed the history of this matter in more detail than I would recommend will know that we raised this question when we put the matter out for consultation between our first and second reports, and nobody suggested that there was anything wrong with the court deciding whether to consider leave to appeal from its own decision. That largely covers the same point.
I ought to deal with some of the objections. First, there is the objection which is the principal one taken by Sir David Edward and some of the members of this Committee subsequent to our report. It was that in England no certification is required for habeas corpus. We do not have habeas corpus in Scotland. We have our own rules and, in any event, we are bound by Article 5. If one wanted to introduce an exception to the rule for certification, it would be easy to do so under reference to Article 5. There are other minor things in relation to contempt of court and courts martial. I have no objection to a list of exceptions which would mirror those in England, except in relation to habeas corpus, which, as I have said, would be dealt with differently.
It is very important to take account of and to give full and proper weight to the written representation by the Lord Justice General. So far as I can tell, it has never been done before. The Lord Justice General thought very carefully and hard, and he decided to make these representations. Furthermore, he consulted the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, and he also consulted the noble and learned Lord, Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers, if I recall correctly, and they said that the certification created no problem in England for the courts for which they were responsible. The Lord Advocate and the Scottish Government support our position on this, and the Scotland Bill Committee of Members of the Scottish Parliament also supported it. Indeed, Paul McBride, who was a member of Sir David Edward’s group, has specifically decided to support it and said so to that Committee.
The objections taken by others have been mentioned by the noble and learned Lord—for example, the Law Society and the Faculty of Advocates—but they were barking up a tree which no longer has the branch on which they were endeavouring to sit; namely, that the matter is no longer a devolution issue if it arises in the course of criminal proceedings. Therefore, the idea that because devolution issues are taken to the Supreme Court without permission in other parts of the United Kingdom no longer has any validity. Therefore, in my submission to your Lordships, the reasoning on that is not sound.
If certification and leave are granted in England and Wales, the Supreme Court considers the point of law and then deals with it and any other matters necessary to decide the appeal. That is exactly what we propose. I remind your Lordships of what was said by the Lord Justice General in the written submission—if I can get my iPad to remind me of what I have on it. He said in terms that this issue relates to,
“the appropriate relationship between an intermediate court of criminal appeal (such as the High Court … in its appellate capacity) and a further court of appeal (such as the Supreme Court)”.
He goes on to discuss that in some detail. He said that the English provision has recently been held to be “Convention compliant” in the case of Dunn in 2010. He adds:
“From conversation with the current Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales (Lord Judge) and with the current Lord Chief Justice of Northern Ireland (Sir Declan Morgan) I understand that each of them finds the certification requirement to be valuable and, so far as I am aware, it raises no difficulties in practice”.
At paragraph 13 of the written submission, he mentions that it would have “value for Scotland” and, in particular, that there is no reason why we should be different from England in relation to that. Perhaps I may remind your Lordships of the quotations that I gave from House of Commons Hansard of 21 June 2011 from Ministers who envisage that the regime should be the same on both sides of the border in relation to the Supreme Court.
On the very important point made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, the Lord Justice General said:
“The consideration of applications for a certificate would be a new responsibility for the judges of the High Court. But there is every reason to suppose that, like their colleagues in the other jurisdictions in the United Kingdom, they would act reasonably and responsibly”.
I remain of the view that the relevant amendment should be considered further by the Minister and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, but we will not reach it today because it is way down the list. However, I am certainly reserving my position. After today’s debate, if I can overcome the confusions which are partly my responsibility, I intend to put down amendments for Report in order to ensure that the matters still outstanding are more fully debated. I would express the hope to the House authorities that on that occasion we will not be sitting late on a Thursday afternoon when the Scots have gone home—sent homeward to fight again is the expression that we will be hearing on Saturday afternoon in a different context. They have gone home, which is a great pity because, although this is not the most important matter since the fall of the Berlin Wall, none the less it is an important matter in this context. I remind the noble and learned Lord of what I have said to him, and I think that he agrees with me. This is not just for Christmas; it is for a very long time. It may be many years before this legislation is looked at again, so I hope that it will be looked at very thoroughly in this context.
As far as I am concerned, that deals with certification and I will return to the other matters in a moment or two.
“an arguable point of law of general public importance which ought to be considered by the Supreme Court at that time”.
So one must ask: is there a need for a certificate from the Appeal Court? The main argument presented by the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, is that it is necessary in order to achieve consistency or parity with the position in England, Wales and Northern Ireland. But, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, has said, is this comparing like with like? The Appeal Courts in those other jurisdictions may be asked to sanction appeals to the Supreme Court on a wide variety of issues concerned with any aspect of criminal law and procedure. In the case of Scotland, on the other hand, the Supreme Court has a special jurisdiction to deal with issues confined to alleged breaches of human rights, and it is for this reason that the group under Sir David Edward rejected any attempt to draw a parallel. The group confirmed that this was the case when responding to questions from the review group under the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey.
Lord Cameron of Lochbroom
I shall speak briefly because I look at the matter not in particular detail but, like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, from a philosophical view. Scottish criminal law and procedure has developed in an entirely different way from that in the other jurisdictions in the United Kingdom, but it has now had placed above it a Supreme Court with a particular mandate. It seems to me that that is the court which at the end of the day can determine whether what is being brought before it, whether with leave or without it, is a matter with which it should be concerned, looking to its universal jurisdiction in order to provide consistency in a very special area of law.
That being so, notwithstanding my having no reason to doubt that in general the court below will be capable of determining whether a point of public law importance arises, there are special cases where that might not be perceived by the court below and no harm is done by leaving out the certification procedure which is available in a different form in the way of leave, and by adopting the path in these matters suggested by the noble and learned Lord the Advocate-General.
I do not intend to deal with any of the other matters, because this seems to me the real nub point in the relationship between the High Court of Justiciary and the Supreme Court which arises out of the other amendments which have been proposed.
Lord McCluskey
I hope that this will be the last time that I rise to my feet in this part of the debate. I shall endeavour by Report to formulate one amendment on matters relating to certification so that we can address this topic more fully than we have been able to do today.
Perhaps I may turn in the mean time to Amendment 72C and, linked with it, Amendment 72H. After “only”, Amendment 72C would insert,
“after the final determination of the proceedings, except with the permission of the High Court under subsection (5C)”.
That subsection relates to proposed new Section 288AB and references before the finality of the proceedings. In the normal case, the judgment that is required to be made under Article 6, which is the most important article bearing upon these issues, is whether the appellant— the accused or convicted person—has been deprived of a fair trial. The courts in Strasbourg, England and Edinburgh have repeatedly said that you judge the question of the fairness of the trial in the light of the whole circumstances. That is why I suggest that normally the appeal should take place at the end of the proceedings in the High Court and not before. That has the advantage that it avoids delay in the middle of proceedings of an unnecessary kind.
There have to be exceptions. The most obvious example is an issue such as the temporary sheriffs case, where it is independent of the facts of the case. It is an issue as to whether or not the court is an independent tribunal. There have been other cases of that general character. The court could make an exception there and we can surely trust it to do so. But the idea is that no appeal goes before the proceedings have been finalised in the High Court.
Amendment 72H deals with an issue related to that but also related more to the fact that the court can send it away ex proprio motu if it decides that that would further the interests of justice. The amendment relates to the fact that the Lord Advocate or Advocate-General may require the High Court to refer a compatibility issue to the Supreme Court for determination. That appears to be again on a par with the court deciding that the interests of justice require this issue to be decided if it can be decided without reference to the facts of the case. The Lord Advocate in particular—I am sure that others in the Committee could confirm this—may well have knowledge of the consequences of a particular decision going a particular way. He may be anxious to get these consequences ventilated and the decision made because there may be hundreds or even thousands of cases pending the decision. I very much want to see that the Lord Advocate has this power.
I am sure that it would be exercised responsibly. There is no reason to suppose that the Lord Advocate would exercise it irresponsibly and I am sure that it will be confined to those cases where it is clear that the matter is independent of the fairness of the trial on the facts or the conduct of the trial itself. Rather, it is dependent on an issue that lies outside the trial.
Amendments 72F and 72G relate to the possible extension of the 28-day period. In my submission, once a case has been through the High Court before a judge and jury or before the Sheriff Court and then it goes to the High Court of Justiciary sitting as an Appeal Court, one would have thought that by that stage all the issues had been properly identified. Therefore, 28 days is long enough to allow an appellant to formulate his grounds of appeal. That is why I do not see the need for a longer period for the High Court, having regard to all the circumstances. That is contained in the amendment of the Advocate-General. I wanted to delete that proposed new subsection and also the one relating to a similar power in the Supreme Court.
It is important to bear in mind that under the European Convention on Human Rights and the Human Rights Act the victim is usually the accused person, whereas the injured person or the relatives of the deceased person are not victims at all. But in truth and public understanding, the real victims of crime are those who have suffered from the crime. They want to see cases finished as quickly as possible. Therefore the possibility that the Supreme Court or the High Court may take weeks or months to decide a matter and then allow an appeal is abhorrent to the general public. I submit that the Government should consider very carefully accepting my amendments to the new clause proposed in Amendment 72 and restrict the period to 28 days.
Lord Boyd of Duncansby
My Lords, I have very little else to add to what has been a useful debate. However, I hope that next time we come to this we are able to group the amendments in such a way that we can have a more structured debate, because it has not been particularly easy to follow. The noble and learned Lord has been up and down on his feet—I do not blame him for that in any way, but the way that this has progressed has been unfortunate. Perhaps next time we can look more clearly at grouping the amendments in a more coherent manner.
Lord Maclennan of Rogart
It may be regarded as something of an impertinence for one who is not a Scots lawyer to intervene in such a debate and I therefore propose to confine my remarks. I hope that when we do come back to this, there will be a jury as well as judges sitting, and that we may hear the voice of the man in the street on this matter. Speaking with the view of the man in the street, I am bound to say that I find the Government’s position on this, and the views expressed by the noble and learned Lords, Lord Cullen and Lord Cameron, persuasive. It seems to me that the prime consideration is not whether or not the trial can be completed quickly, but whether or not justice is done. Those who are charged with an offence should have the right of appeal considered, unrelated to whether or not the issue is of public importance. It is of direct importance to the individuals involved in the trial. I may be completely off beam, and I recognise the risk of intervening in such a debate, but having listened to most of the arguments, I found them compelling, particularly on the side of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Cullen.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, first of all I thank all the noble Lords—noble and learned Lords—who have taken part. We may be small in number, but we have two former Lord Advocates, a former Solicitor-General and Senator of the College of Justice, and a former Lord Justice General. The experience that has been brought to bear on the issues has been quite considerable. We even have a member of the jury in my noble friend Lord Maclennan.
In retrospect it would have been easier if we could have had a more focused debate, but it is quite clear that we are going to return to this matter on Report and I certainly take on board the points that have been made. The grouping was intended to allow for a full discussion on this issue and all the different points in relation to it. I will certainly give consideration, through the usual channels, as to how we might group the amendments on Report so that we have some quite focused debate, particularly on the point of certification, which is possibly the most important point at issue.
I will come on to certification in a moment, but will briefly respond to some of the other points raised, particularly by the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey. He indicated that he had tabled Amendment 71A to insert the words,
“in the course of criminal proceedings”.
The amendment amends the proposed new Section 288ZA(2) to do this. We believe that our amendment inserting Section 288ZA(1) makes clear that the new appeal route only arises in the context of criminal proceedings, but I did listen to what the noble and learned Lord said. There may be some ambiguity or lack of sufficient clarity, and I will certainly want to look at this. I have looked at drafts at various times and I do accept that it is sometimes difficult when you are trying to import things into a different Act to make sure that it is right. I will look at the particular point that he raised there.
With regard to the noble and learned Lord’s point about defining “criminal proceedings”, the term “criminal proceedings” is already used in the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995, and we are therefore content that no definition is required. Indeed, inserting a definition just in relation to these particular provisions may inadvertently cast doubt on the meaning of the term when it is applied to other provisions of the 1995 Act. Therefore, to ensure consistency throughout the Act, we felt that particular amendment would not be necessary.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, asked whether there would be a compatibility issue if an Act of the Scottish Parliament was introduced by an MSP in breach of Article 6. It is important to point out that introducing legislation in itself does not change the law and would not be incompatible with the convention. It is only when the Bill is passed that the issue of a possible breach of Section 29 of the Scotland Act would arise. At that point, a challenge to an Act of the Scottish Parliament would be a devolution issue. However, I think that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, indicated that we had made it clear—and the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, read out from the letter that I sent to him last month—and it is certainly clear that it is the Government’s intention that issues that arise in respect of Acts of the Scottish Parliament over whether they are compatible or within competence, under Section 29 of the Scotland Act, should be treated as devolution issues. They should use the procedures that currently exist for devolution issues and should not go down a route for compatibility issues. Indeed, my concern was that you could have some parts going down a devolution issue and some going down a compatibility issue. That is certainly our intention; I will look carefully at these amendments as drafted to make sure that proper effect is given to that intention and that an unintended ambiguity has not arisen.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, also raised the question of time limits. The reason for the exception here was not without precedent—and I think that there was agreement generally that the time limits should be there. Section 7(5) of the Human Rights Act 1998 provides that proceedings alleging that a public authority has acted unlawfully by virtue of Section 6(1) of the Human Rights Act must be brought within a year of the alleged unlawful act. However, this time limit can be extended if the court or tribunal considers it equitable having regard to all the circumstances.
In a case reported last year, R (Cockburn) v the Secretary of State for Health, the court considered it equitable to extend the time limit under Section 7(5) because the claim raised a matter of public importance, and it was not suggested that the delay had not caused hardship to the defendant or to third parties or was detrimental to good administration. This is to give discretion to the courts when it may be that this is how justice can be done in circumstances where no one is necessarily at fault and permission was not sought in the time limit specified in the amendment.
The other point related to the point raised by the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, about the Lord Advocate or Advocate-General being able to refer a matter to the Supreme Court. This is an issue which I have certainly given careful consideration to, and I readily accept that there are good arguments on both sides. There is the argument, as the noble and learned Lord indicated, that a lot of cases might be backing up when one decision is needed to resolve a whole host of cases. On the other hand, as I indicated when I spoke earlier, the advantage of the trial having been completed, and the Supreme Court having the advantage of the case having been given consideration by the High Court of Justiciary, is something that is of importance. However, I will reflect again on that. I have done so many times, and there are important issues here.
Lord McCluskey
I have not had a chance to check, but I have a recollection that the Attorney-General in England intervened to have a case taken to the Supreme Court earlier, but I am not sure about that. Perhaps the noble and learned Lord could deal with that on another occasion, if he is not able to do so today.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
Indeed, I can confirm that the Lord Advocate has referred cases directly to the Supreme Court; the so-called “sons of Cadder” cases were on references by the Lord Advocate to the Supreme Court within the last 12 months. So it clearly has been done. Those were cases clearly where there was a wish to get clarity in some of the implications of the original Cadder judgment. So there are certainly good arguments as to why that should be there, and ones that I am certainly prepared to listen to further.
Lord Boyd of Duncansby
I referred a case about the independence of justices of the peace, for the very reason to which the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, referred—because of the importance in getting clarity at an early stage so that the system as a whole did not seize up.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, for that because there are arguments there and I will give further reflection to them.
A good number of issues have been aired on certification. I am grateful to the noble and learned Lords, Lord Cullen, Lord Cameron of Lochbroom and Lord Boyd of Duncansby, who indicated on certification that although there have been issues against it, in fact the case that the Government have sought to make against certification can be justified on a number of grounds. It is right, as a number of your Lordships have indicated, that we are not comparing like with like. As I indicated in my opening remarks, in England and Wales the whole criminal justice system of substantive criminal law and criminal procedure is the potential subject matter of appeals to the Supreme Court, whereas here we are dealing with what are essentially constitutional issues that arise in the context of a criminal case—namely, convention compliance or European Union laws.
Also, as I indicated before, the original justification for certification was very much administrative. It was an Administration of Justice Act in which it was introduced, to ensure that there was not a great flood of cases. I believe that it was brought in not for any reason of jurisprudence—as the quotes from the then Lord Chancellor, Viscount Kilmuir, suggest—but as an administrative break. Again, not least because of the representations which we have received from the Lord Justice General, we will treat these matters very sensitively and seriously, giving proper weight to the arguments that have been advanced again. It would be fair to say that the arguments advanced in the course of your Lordships’ debate this evening have not really prompted me to change my mind on this, but no doubt these matters will be returned to.
I am grateful to the noble and learned Lord, Lord McCluskey, for giving us a focus for some of the debates which we have had, and I very much hope that on Report—
Lord McCluskey
I want to reiterate that I regret that because of the way the amendments were grouped, the debate was not able to take the coherent form which all of us wanted. Certainly, I am not satisfied with the manner in which I was able to present the individual arguments on the separable points. However, I am very grateful to the noble and learned Lord for indicating that one way or another we will be able, when we return to this matter more maturely on Report, to look at the remaining issues that will be outstanding—because they are not all going to be raised again—and deal with them coherently and finally at that stage.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
I concur with the noble and learned Lord and perhaps we will have a bigger attendance, although that should not in any way diminish the quality of the contributions we have had this evening, because these are important issues. With these words, perhaps we can confirm that Clause 17 will not stand part of the Bill.
The Lord Speaker (Baroness D'Souza)
My Lords, for the avoidance of doubt the Question is that Clause 17 stand part of the Bill. As many as are of that opinion will say Content; the contrary Not-Content.
The Lord Speaker
The Question is that Clause 18 stand part of the Bill. As many as are of that opinion will say Content.
Lord Sewel
Lord Sewel
My Lords, my mind goes back to consideration of the Scotland Bill in 1998. Some things are the same and some things change. What is the same is that now we are reduced to a relatively small House; what is different is that in 1998 our deliberations were at 2 am—when we used to carry on till that time—and now it is 6.45 pm. Nevertheless, as they say, I am sure that we will be able to make some progress.
The amendment deals with the appointment of what is called the BBC Trust member for Scotland. In olden days it used to be referred to as the “Scottish governor” of the BBC. At the moment the Bill says:
“A Minister of the Crown must not exercise without the agreement of the Scottish Ministers functions relating to selection for a particular appointment”,
and then goes on to explain. My amendment would take out “agreement” and put in “consultation”.
That is partly because of something that happened way back in 1974, when local government in Scotland was reorganised. I remember going to a conference of the good and the great, where the whole discussion was about the relationship between the two tiers of local government in Scotland, the regions and the districts. I remember a very distinguished civil servant at the time saying, “Given good will, the relationship between the two tiers of local government would work very well indeed”, and a grizzled chief town clerk—those were the days when we had town clerks rather than chief executives—saying that in his experience the last thing that you could count on in the relationships between local authorities was the existence of good will.
I am not daring to say that that typifies the relationship between the Scottish Parliament and the Parliament of the United Kingdom, or between Scottish Ministers and UK Ministers, but having an appointment that depends upon the agreement of two Ministers from different Parliaments and maybe of different political hues, as sometimes happens in this House, creates at least the opportunity—I put it no stronger than that—for mischief-making. In other words, it is possible to generate a major row or a clash over something relatively minor, so that what perhaps starts off as an irritant becomes a major issue of principle. Basically, let us avoid that; let us avoid creating a structure that offers that possibility.
By all means let us have consultation. My amendment would mean that the Secretary of State had consultation with Scottish Ministers. To be honest, I would prefer the Scottish Minister to have the decision rather than the Secretary of State, if we got away from the business of agreement. My first position is the Secretary of State and my second position is Scottish Ministers. I just want to avoid the opportunity—the invitation, almost—to create a fuss over something where it should not exist.
Lord Boyd of Duncansby
My Lords, there is an important point in what my noble friend says. The Calman commission recommendation was that:
“The responsibility for the appointment of the Scottish member of the BBC Trust should be exercised by Scottish Ministers, subject to the normal public appointments process”.
There is no suggestion there that it would be by anyone other than the Scottish Ministers. Perhaps in addressing my noble friend’s point, the Minister could also address the issue of why there has been a difference of approach in the Bill from that of the Calman commission’s report.
Baroness Rawlings
My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, for putting down his amendment as it gives me the opportunity to clarify Her Majesty’s Government’s view on this delicate point.
Clause 20 will make certain that the Secretary of State has to seek the agreement of Scottish Government Ministers in the process of appointing the BBC Trust member for Scotland. Currently, the Scottish Government are involved in the appointment process on an informal basis. The clause will formalise the involvement of Scottish Ministers in the appointment process and gives them the legislative basis to undertake their responsibilities in relation to the appointment process.
Under the terms of the BBC charter, the Trust member for Scotland must be qualified by virtue of his knowledge of the culture, characteristics and affairs of the people in Scotland and his close touch with the opinion of that nation. Therefore, we feel it is preferable that Scottish Ministers should have a significant role in agreeing the appointment. In answer to the noble Lord, it is highly unlikely that the situation would arise in which they would fundamentally disagree over the appointment of a candidate. If Scottish Ministers do not give their agreement to the proposed DCMS appointment of the BBC Trust member for Scotland, they would need to provide justification for that. Both sets of Ministers have the same interest in not wanting to leave the seat empty. The opportunity is primary for a member of a UK body—that is, the BBC Trust. Furthermore, broadcasting remains a reserved matter, something that the Calman report was very clear should remain the case, and we are following that principle. On this basis, the UK Government believe it is important to retain the ultimate responsibility for the appointment.
This amendment would place a duty on the Secretary of State only to consult Scottish Ministers in appointing the BBC Trust member for Scotland, rather than seeking their agreement to the appointment. It is our view that this does not give the Scottish Government sufficient involvement in the appointment process. Securing the agreement of the Scottish Government is the appropriate way of involving them in the appointment process for the BBC Trust member for Scotland. The existing provision gives the Scottish Government an important and appropriate power and the UK Government do not wish to weaken this. I hope that this satisfies the noble Lord, Lord Sewel, and I urge him to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Sewel
My Lords, this has been a short debate so I do not even have to thank anybody for taking part in it. I think this is one of those occasions where that well known double positive, which is in fact a negative, comes into play with reference to a fundamental disagreement between the two parties, to which the comment is, “Aye, that’ll be right then”. I very much think that there is indeed the possibility for that level of disagreement. I know that this looks likes an enormously trivial matter but I ask the noble Baroness at least to reflect on it because if we do not have a clear focus on where responsibility lies—that is, the relevant decision is taken by one person in consultation with another—I am afraid the Government may live to regret that state of affairs.
Eagle-eyed noble Lords will note that I ought to have tabled a similar amendment to Clause 21, which relates to Gaelic broadcasting. However, I did not do so because I was totally incapable of pronouncing the name of the organisation involved.
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