House of Commons

Thursday 14th March 2013 Commons Chamber

Thursday 14 March 2013

The House met at half-past Nine o’clock

Prayers

Thursday 14th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Mr Speaker in the Chair]

Oral Answers to Questions

Thursday 14th March 2013 Commons Chamber

The Secretary of State was asked—

[Mr Iain McKenzie (Inverclyde) (Lab)]

1. What steps he is taking to help households improve their energy efficiency.

[The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Mr Edward Davey)]

Before I answer may I, on behalf of many Members of the House, welcome the election of the new pope, Pope Francis?

The green deal, which went fully live on Monday 28 January, will help transform the homes of British people over the coming decade and beyond. This transformational policy, along with the energy company obligation and the roll-out of smart meters, will drive the development of a new energy efficiency market, providing unprecedented choice, benefits and access to low-cost finance for British households.

[Mr McKenzie]

The Government claim that the green deal will be the biggest and best home improvement plan since the second world war. Can the Minister tell us how many households have taken out the green deal so far?

[Mr Davey]

The green deal has got off to an excellent start. As the hon. Gentleman may know, we have released data today which show that nearly 2,000 green deal assessments have been made, and already that figure is out of date. There are more than 600 accredited advisers and more than 600 installing firms have been accredited. Nearly £30 million of ecos have been traded on eco-brokerage. The hon. Gentleman should listen to the industry. I do not often recommend that people listen to tweets, but if he looks at the tweets of British Gas, GHE Solar, Toriga and Green Deal Shop, they will tell him and other right hon. and hon. Members how well those firms are doing with assessments and, they believe, taking those on to installations.

[Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)]

It is estimated that 8 million homes would benefit from solid wall insulation and 4 million from cavity insulation. There is a huge market out there for the green deal. What is my right hon. Friend doing to promote the green deal to make sure that as many people as possible take it up?

[Mr Davey]

I can assure my hon. Friend that I, my Ministers, the whole Department and the whole Government are pushing the green deal. The solid walls that he referred to—those 8 million homes—have not featured in energy efficiency programmes in any major way before. It has been an undealt-with issue in energy efficiency. We have not ducked that and we are tackling it.

[Luciana Berger (Liverpool, Wavertree) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is just over a month since the green deal was launched. We have just heard that more than 2,000 assessments have taken place. However, the Secretary of State refuses to reveal how many households have actually signed for a green deal package. We know that the Department is monitoring green deal uptake in real time through the energy performance certificate register. Why will he not share that information with the House today?

[Mr Davey]

I am surprised that the hon. Lady has asked that question as it suggests that she does not understand how the green deal plans work. She should know, and I think she probably does, that after an assessment has been made and an installation programme has been booked, the green deal plan is signed only after the installation has been completed and then goes on to the green deal register for the green deal payments to appear on the bill. So there is quite a lag, as the hon. Lady would know. We did not expect a huge number of green deal plans to have already been signed. The key issue at this stage is the green deal assessments and the green deal assessors, and we are making huge progress, as the industry is saying.

[Luciana Berger]

I thank the Secretary of State for that response, but he will know that the public want to know how many people, having seen their assessment, have signed on the dotted line for the deal. Given that Nationwide is offering energy efficiency loans with an interest rate of just 2.29%—less than a third of the interest rate under the green deal—does the Secretary of State believe that more people would take out the green deal if offered a better deal?

[Mr Davey]

The green deal is going well, as the industry says. I welcome Nationwide’s product because it shows that there is more competition in the market. It shows what the green deal is spurring. It is not just green deal plans that will be a mark of the programme’s success; it is green deal self-funded plans, which will be a result of the green deal assessments being made. They would not be made in the way that they are if we had not gone forward, and the hon. Lady should welcome that.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Domestic LED lighting can use as little as 5% of the power of a normal light bulb. Though more expensive initially to buy, LED light bulbs require very little maintenance and have a very long life. What incentives are there in the green deal or elsewhere to promote domestic LED lighting?

[Mr Davey]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. We strongly support LED lighting. There are issues about whether different types of lighting can come under the green deal because light bulbs can be taken away, and if the cost of those is in the electricity meter for the next tenant or the next owner-occupier, that would not be fair and would not, therefore, abide by the green deal rules. However, we agree with my hon. Friend: there is a strong case for people investing in LED.

[Ian Lavery (Wansbeck) (Lab)]

2. What assessment he has made of the future of the deep-mine coal industry in the UK.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Mr John Hayes)]

The Government value the role of British coal in meeting our energy needs. Equipped with carbon capture and storage, coal generation can continue to play a significant long-term role as part of a future low-carbon energy mix.

[Ian Lavery]

The Minister is very much aware of the situation at Daw Mill colliery, where 650 miners who have given their lives to the coal mining industry are facing uncertainty with regard to redundancy payments. Will he give a commitment to do everything in his power to ensure that these men receive their entitlements in full?

[Mr Hayes]

There are few in this House who can match the hon. Gentleman’s understanding, knowledge and support for the coal industry. I cannot match it, but what I can match is his determination to do right by the workers there. I had a positive meeting with the unions yesterday; I also met UK Coal yesterday and, again, had a positive meeting. The Government will do all they can, not only to protect the future of the coal industry, but to protect the interests of those workers who will lose their jobs at Daw Mill. I made that abundantly clear. We cannot match the hon. Gentleman’s knowledge of these things, but I can certainly match his determination.

[David Mowat (Warrington South) (Con)]

The Minister said in his response that coal had a good future in this country if it was combined with carbon capture and storage, a technology that is many years from working. Across the rest of the world, unabated coal is accelerating. In particular, countries such as Germany that produce 20% more carbon per unit of GDP and 20% more carbon per capita than us are launching a number of coal-fired stations. Why is their position so different from ours?

[Mr Hayes]

We are committed to CCS because we believe it can work. My hon. Friend will know that the carbon capture and storage cost reduction taskforce predicted it could work much earlier than previously estimated—by the early 2020s. With carbon capture and storage, coal can play an important part in our future. I cannot be clearer than that, Mr Speaker, surely.

[Mr Dennis Skinner (Bolsover) (Lab)]

The Minister will be aware that UK Coal, which owns Daw Mill colliery, is one of the principal owners in the coal industry that remains. The worst case scenario that we had put to us the other day was that if UK Coal cannot survive, two more pits—one that is loss making, one that is making a bob or two—could go, as well as some other land sites. When he is talking about Daw Mill colliery and talking to UK Coal, will he ensure that he protects the redundancy money? There is someone in my constituency who used to work in Derbyshire but who now travels 100 miles there and back to Daw Mill. Will he get his redundancy pay? He was finished before the fire, so will the Minister get on with it?

[Mr Hayes]

The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right—again, he is an authority on these matters. The pits at Thoresby and Kellingley are, of course, also owned by Daw Mill. Part of our determination—the determination I outlined a moment ago—is to ensure that the future of those pits is secured. However, he is also right to say—this goes for me, too—that the workers matter most in all this. That includes the workers who were made redundant in the early restructuring, the workers at Thoresby and Kellingley and the workers at Daw Mill. I have made that abundantly clear to the unions, with which I had such a positive meeting, and I have told the company that, for the Government, it is a key priority.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Minister has already referred to the importance of CCS in relation to the medium and long-term future of coal generation. I am sure he will be aware that around two thirds of the coal we burn to generate electricity in the UK is imported. He might not be aware yet that, as of 9.5 this morning, 46% of all the electricity being generated in Britain today is from coal-fired stations. Given those two factors and his determination, as he has said in the past, to put the “coal” into coalition, may I urge him to put the “sense” into sensible and get on with developing a short-term strategy for coal to protect the indigenous industry in the UK?

[Mr Hayes]

That is a good point. There is a good argument for making a clear statement about how we see coal developing in the short to medium term. It is absolutely right that we pursue CCS. Perhaps we will get the chance to say more about that later in these questions—who knows, Mr Speaker? The hon. Gentleman is right, and I will certainly consider making a statement on that. The appropriate time for that will be when we make further progress at Daw Mill, Thoresby and Kellingley. He is right. The Government can learn from the Opposition, and the wise Ministers on the Front Bench recognise that.

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

3. What recent discussions he has had with utility companies on the cost of providing electricity infrastructure.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Mr John Hayes)]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

I think that the Minister is recovering from his last witticism.

[Mr Hayes]

It is as though all my Christmases have come at once, Mr Speaker.

My regular discussions with energy companies about the cost of our electricity infrastructure are essential to ensure that the Government guarantee energy security, meet decarbonisation objectives and, just as important, do so in a way that makes energy affordable for customers across Britain.

[John Pugh]

I thank the Minister for that answer. He will be aware that, as a result of statutory undertakings, companies such as ScottishPower have a virtual monopoly over electricity industry infrastructure, which hinders commercial development, particularly in my constituency. What can be done about that?

[Mr Hayes]

Let me be clear that my Department expects network companies to provide connections in a timely and affordable way while maintaining the secure electricity on which we have all come to depend. Connections to the distribution network are a matter for the distribution network operator, as my hon. Friend knows, and the independent regulator, Ofgem. I entirely agree that those companies must behave properly, as we make extremely clear in our discussions with them. Indeed, I was with a number of transmission companies earlier this week doing just that.

[Andy Sawford (Corby) (Lab/Co-op)]

Bloomberg research has shown that investment in renewable energy has halved since this Government came to power, and the Pew group has found that Britain has slipped to seventh in the world for investment in clean energy, so is it not the case that, although the Government talk a good game, we are actually slipping behind in investment?

[Mr Hayes]

That is an interesting tangential question, given the question on the Order Paper, but the hon. Gentleman is absolutely right that it is vital to our energy security that we have an energy mix. Our Energy Bill underpins exactly that strategy—a mixed economy of generation—purely because only by that means can we be sufficiently flexible and responsive in a highly dynamic set of circumstances.

[Mr Tim Yeo (South Suffolk) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that it is very important to avoid incurring costs by building infrastructure that is not needed? Is he aware that the National Grid proposal to construct overhead pylons across Suffolk was based on the assumption of early completion of new nuclear power stations at Sizewell and completion of a large number of offshore wind farms, none of which is certain to be built? Does he agree, therefore, that the proposal should now be deferred?

[Mr Hayes]

It is right that the infrastructure we put in place should meet a purpose; infrastructure without a purpose can hardly be legitimised. I am not as familiar with the intimate details of the affairs of Suffolk as my hon. Friend is; he would hardly expect me to be, but I am more than happy to take a look at that. Furthermore, and not for the first time, I would be delighted to meet him to discuss these matters more fully.

[Mr Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP)]

In his discussions on infrastructure, has the Minister considered the place of pump storage systems and how they fit into the new world of contracts for difference and capacity payments?

[Mr Hayes]

It is not the first time the hon. Gentleman has raised that matter. Scotland has a particular interest in that, because of the transmission circumstances that prevail there. That is something the Department has looked at and we continue to have those kinds of exploratory discussions. If he wants to feed into those, of course his contribution, as ever, would be most welcome.

[Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)]

4. What recent progress he has made on the roll-out of the green deal.

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

8. What recent progress he has made on the roll-out of the green deal.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)]

The green deal went live, on time, on Monday 28 January. The Government’s “Green Deal With It” communications campaign was launched the same day. By the end of February, according to the official statistics, 1,803 assessments had been carried out.

[Mr Walker]

I am grateful to the Minister for that answer. Major employers in Worcester, such as Wolseley, npower and Worcester Bosch, are looking forward to participating in the green deal, but the latter warned that for the programme to reach its full potential more ordinary installers need to be given the chance to sell it. What steps are the Government taking to reach out to installers and ensure that they have a chance to play a part in rolling out the green deal?

[Gregory Barker]

A whole range of installers will be absolutely vital, and I was delighted to see that Wolseley has said that it is seeing strong demand not only for its products, but for adviser training, as it is a trainer. For small and medium-sized enterprises, we are waiving all fees and oversight costs for the first two years. We are hosting a range of networking events with the Federation of Small Businesses, the British Chambers of Commerce and the CBI, and we are co-hosting eco roadshows with Energy UK. We are also committing money to training assessors and installers, and there is more to come.

[Jeremy Lefroy]

Stafford borough council is working with green deal providers to raise awareness among my constituents of access to the scheme. Will the Minister and his green deal team meet me and the council to discuss how we can encourage the best possible take-up in Stafford and the surrounding areas?

[Gregory Barker]

I would be delighted to meet my hon. Friend and his council. We are seeing a very encouraging degree of not only commitment but real enthusiasm from local authorities across the country. Local authorities will be key to a really ambitious roll-out.

[Mr David Hanson (Delyn) (Lab)]

Will the Minister reflect a little further on the question that my hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Wavertree (Luciana Berger) put to the Secretary of State—namely, are the interest rates for the green deal too high to encourage take-up and ultimately too high for consumers to get a good deal out of the green deal?

[Gregory Barker]

I understand what lies behind this point. However, if the right hon. Gentleman looks at this carefully, he will see that when people quote interest rates such as the one for Nationwide they are not comparing like with like. Crucially, the green deal interest rate is fixed for 20 years. I am aware of only one other such product in the market. Access to the green deal interest rate is incredibly fair and open, and not only for people who are lucky enough to own their own homes.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

The Minister’s answer just will not do, because the blunt truth is that the green deal interest rate is set at almost 7%. Is it not the case that many people who take up the green deal will find that interest repayments end up costing more than the original measures, and, worse still, that if they try to repay their loan early they will be clobbered with hefty fines? How is that fair?

[Gregory Barker]

I will tell the hon. Gentleman what is not fair: scaremongering about the green deal, particularly when that puts off vulnerable people who would otherwise have no access to affordable finance. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman can scoff at 7%, but he should compare that to any other form of unsecured lending that is available to people on low wages or the minimum wage. How many people on low incomes, or people who are not lucky enough to be a home owner, can access interest rates like that? He might be a smart home owner himself, but he should think about those who do not have the same opportunities. This actually represents a really good deal.

[Mr Dominic Raab (Esher and Walton) (Con)]

5. What steps he is taking to reduce energy bills.

[Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)]

11. What steps he is taking to help households with their energy bills.

[The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Mr Edward Davey)]

We have a range of initiatives to help people with their energy bills, including tariff reforms, energy saving programmes, and additional help for those on the lowest incomes. From our proposals to help get consumers on the cheapest tariffs to the green deal, from the warm home discount to our promotion of collective switching, this Government are working to help people keep their energy bills down.

[Mr Raab]

I thank the Secretary of State for that answer. However, supply is also crucial. Ofgem forecasts that UK spare electricity capacity will slump to 4% by 2015, and that highlights the acute need to get more nuclear power on stream. May I urge him to strain every sinew to finalise the right deal with EDF to build a new nuclear power station at Hinkley Point?

[Mr Davey]

I assure my hon. Friend that we are straining every sinew in the negotiations with EDF. He will recognise that I cannot be more explicit than that given that they are commercial negotiations. I will say, though, that we take energy security very seriously and listen to Ofgem, National Grid and others. However, we do not imagine that new nuclear power will assist in the rest of this decade, because new nuclear power stations take such a long time to build.

[Mark Lazarowicz]

We are currently going through a cold spell and, as night follows day, we know that in a few months’ time the energy companies will announce even bigger boosts in profits because people have been using more energy. Is it not time to get to a situation whereby a cold spell is not an occasion for energy companies to make even more profits but to keep prices down for consumers?

[Mr Davey]

The hon. Gentleman will know that we have taken a lot of extra powers in the Energy Bill to make sure that Ofgem’s reforms on tariffs can go through and that the energy companies cannot be allowed to drag their feet. That has been welcomed by many consumer groups. This Government have also taken action to help people on the lowest incomes. We have trebled cold weather payments, so when there is a cold snap people get the help they need when they need it.

[Chris Heaton-Harris (Daventry) (Con)]

When the House of Commons analysed the DECC-produced fuel poverty data set of 2009, the figures suggested that the renewables obligation could have pushed 100,000 people into fuel poverty, in 40,000 to 50,000 cases because of the wind element. How many people were pushed into fuel poverty last year because of expensive wind energy?

[Mr Davey]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on his ingenuity, but the analysis that others have done of those figures shows that what has really pushed people into fuel poverty has been gas prices, with global gas prices having increased significantly. We also have to deal with the renewal of the transmission mechanism and distribution networks. Those things have far bigger impacts on prices and bills. The hon. Gentleman ought to have a balanced approach.

[Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab)]

The single biggest driver of rising energy bills is global gas prices. Last week the Institute for Public Policy Research think tank found that household energy bills would be lower and less volatile if the Government decarbonised the power sector by 2030. Does the Secretary of State agree?

[Mr Davey]

I strongly agree that a lot of analysis suggests that if we move to a decarbonised sector, this country and our consumers, people and firms will be less exposed to volatile international gas prices.

[Caroline Flint]

Although the Secretary of State says he agrees, the problem is that the Government are not tackling the issue. The truth is that the Energy Bill does not require the Government to set a decarbonisation target. Even if such a target were set, there is nothing under the Bill’s present arrangements to ensure that it would be met. The Committee on Climate Change is absolutely clear: the Government should set a decarbonisation target now, not in 2016, and all the Government are doing is extending the uncertainty for another two years. Was not the former Energy Minister, the hon. Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry), right when he said that this uncertainty will lead to higher capital costs and, ultimately, higher energy bills for the public?

[Mr Davey]

I have to remind the right hon. Lady and the House that no single party—not the Labour party, the Conservative party, the Liberal Democrats or even the Green party—argued in its 2010 manifesto for a decarbonisation target for the power sector. It was this Government and me as Secretary of State who argued for such a target and got the power to set one in the Energy Bill. When it comes to targets and having the policies to meet them, this Government have done far more than the previous one. The previous Government were right to set targets in the Climate Change Act 2008, but they did not produce the policies to meet them. This Government are doing that.

[Sir Nick Harvey (North Devon) (LD)]

6. What recent assessment he has made of the long-term environmental effects of Government support for large-scale biomass conversion.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)]

We agree that effective sustainability controls must be in place for bioenergy. We already have biomass sustainability criteria for the renewables obligation, and we now propose to improve them by adding new sustainable forest management criteria for wood fuel and a requirement for an independent audit, and by setting a trajectory so that greenhouse gas life-cycle savings targets become tougher over time.

[Sir Nick Harvey]

I welcome the commitment to reforestry targets, but how do Ministers stand up the rather curious proposition that wood burning is carbon neutral? They support the conversion of coal-fired stations to wood burning, but that is only carbon neutral if emission at the point of burn is ignored, and it takes up to 98 years for tree growth to neutralise that. Will the Minister confirm that this dubious practice is simply an interim measure? I understand the need to protect the investment at Drax and elsewhere.

[Gregory Barker]

Biomass certainly needs to be sustainable as well as affordable, but it is not carbon neutral. However, I can tell the hon. Gentleman that greenhouse gas savings from biomass are at least 68% less than those for coal. Although it may not be carbon neutral, it is certainly much cleaner so far as carbon is concerned.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

A number of recent papers—the Searchinger paper, the Hudiburg paper and the Schulze paper—have noted the problems of life-cycle biomass. The Minister is right to have taken steps to address that in forest regrowth and the sustainability standards, but he has not yet addressed the impoverishment of soils and how the resulting increase in the use of fertiliser will lead to an increase in emissions. Will he publish the basis on which he amended his Department’s projections on biomass?

[Gregory Barker]

The hon. Gentleman makes a sensible point. He is right to highlight the impacts not just on the burning of wood or biomass, but on indirect land-use change. The Government are taking this seriously and we are working on it with colleagues at the Department for Transport. In order to be effective, land-use change needs to be dealt with on a pan-European basis. We would welcome support from throughout the House for work with our partners in Europe to put in place robust sustainability criteria.

[Mr Speaker]

We really must move on. We have a lot of progress to make.

[Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con)]

Is the Minister fully committed—by which I mean not just words, but urgent action—to conversion of coal-fired power stations, such as Drax and Eggborough in my constituency, to biomass, which is sustainable?

[Gregory Barker]

The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change, my hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes) met representatives of Eggborough this week and I can confirm that we are committed. As I have said, biomass conversion needs to be sustainable and affordable, and it is an important part of a balanced mix of clean technologies.

[Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)]

7. What assessment he has made of the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority’s process and timetable for determining credible options for plutonium reuse at Sellafield; and if he will make a statement.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Mr John Hayes)]

The process and timetable on the reuse of plutonium were set out in the Government’s consultation response in December 2011. Work on the reuse of plutonium as a mixed oxide fuel is progressing well and remains on track.

[Christopher Pincher]

May I register my disappointment that the Minister has been forced to come to answer questions this morning, when as late as last night, some of us still held out the hope that he might be translated to the Holy See? Be that as it may, does he share my belief that the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority needs to ensure that more than one technology, not just CANDU, is deemed credible for plutonium reuse, so that any subsequent licensing round is competitive and transparent, and delivers best value for the British taxpayer?

[Mr Hayes]

I was always an outsider for Pope, although my infallibility was a strength. My hon. Friend is right that the licensing round needs to take account of those considerations. Following extensive discussions and consultation, we settled on making MOX for nuclear reactors our preferred policy option. However, the Nuclear Decommissioning Authority is still working on alternatives. We are finalising guidance on regulatory justification for the reuse of plutonium, and I can commit today to that being published shortly.

[Mr Speaker]

Whether the Minister of State is infallible is a matter for conjecture, but in the 30 years that I have known him, he has always been inimitable.

[Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab)]

9. What recent representations he has received on a future route to market for independent power generators.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Mr John Hayes)]

Since our call for evidence last year, Ministers and officials have held meetings with a wide range of independent generators, suppliers and other stakeholders covering route-to-market issues, including the availability of power purchase agreements.

[Dr Whitehead]

Does the Minister recognise the difficulties that independent low-carbon generators will have with the passing of power purchase agreements following the end of the renewables obligation? Is he looking at alternatives to PPAs, such as the green power auction market, and will he seek to implement such a market in consideration of the Energy Bill?

[Mr Hayes]

The hon. Gentleman has been consistent in his advocacy of independent generators. He raised this issue during the Committee stage of the Energy Bill. He knows that I am not unsympathetic to his assertions about the difficulties that independent generators face. I believe that contracts for difference will make it easier for independent generators to access the market, as he knows, because they will remove wholesale price risk and eliminate the requirement to market renewables obligation certificates, which will also reduce risk. I make this commitment: I think that we need to look at this matter more closely and to do more. We need a more plural and a more liquid market to create competition and drive down prices.

[Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)]

12. What the height will be of the proposed wind farms in north Lincolnshire; and if he will make a statement.

[The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Mr Edward Davey)]

The proposed height of wind turbines is set out in the planning applications that are submitted for proposed wind farms. The local planning portal shows four wind farms with applications submitted in north Lincolnshire, with heights that vary from up to 100 metres to 126.5 metres. We are committed to supporting onshore wind as part of a balanced mix of energy to meet the UK’s needs. Wind farms must be well designed and well sited to be approved, and the planning process can take account of concerns, including landscape and visual amenity concerns.

[Mr Leigh]

Will my good friend visit me in north Lincolnshire so that we can stand together on the edge of the Wolds, an area of outstanding natural beauty, near the Ramblers church at Walesby and look at the amazing Lincolnshire clay and the 40-mile view? Will he then come back in 10 years’ time to see that great view desecrated by vast arrays of windmills 100 metres high, all in the name of some controversial science? Can we not place these windmills somewhere where they do not desecrate our lives?

[Mr Davey]

The hon. Gentleman will know that I benefit from an infallible Minister of State who comes from Lincolnshire. He keeps me informed of all the issues to do with Lincolnshire and gives me his own particular line on them. I can reassure the hon. Gentleman that I am well versed in Lincolnshire issues. We take community concerns seriously, not just in Lincolnshire but across the country. That is why we published the call for evidence on community benefits in September. We will report to the House on that in the summer.

[Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD)]

13. What steps he is taking to reduce the number of households in fuel poverty.

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

14. What steps his Department is taking to tackle fuel poverty.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)]

We have in place the green deal and the energy company obligation, which we expect to provide support for at least 230,000 low-income and vulnerable households each year. In addition, our warm home discount scheme supports 2 million households in total, and this winter has already helped more than 1 million of the poorest pensioners. We also make cold weather payments and winter fuel payments.

[Mr Sanders]

The previous Government and this Government have a good record of working with energy companies to try to help vulnerable people. Could more be done, particularly for disabled pensioners who own their own home?

[Gregory Barker]

My hon. Friend is right and I am sure more could be done. That is why we designed the green deal and the ECO to be flexible and responsive to the needs of a range of energy consumers, particularly the fuel-poor. If my hon. Friend has any particular ideas on that, I would be happy to discuss them with him.

[Rehman Chishti]

Will the Minister provide an update on the Government’s plans to publish a refreshed strategy for tackling fuel poverty this year?

[Gregory Barker]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right; the Government are committed to bringing new ambition and vision to tackling fuel poverty. The last fuel poverty strategy was published 10 years ago, and we will be coming forward this year with an ambitious strategy, pulling together all strands of policy and building on the latest evidence and creative thinking in that area. I would welcome my hon. Friend’s input, given his knowledge and experience in the area.

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

I make my usual declaration of indirect interests. All MPs will be aware of the effect of fuel poverty on our constituents. A housing association in my constituency is trying desperately to upgrade its properties, which are in an appalling condition. It has fallen foul of the vested interest of a financial investment company which is the latest owner of the freehold for those properties. The company wants only to make a fast buck and is not prepared to renegotiate the contract, but in the meantime my constituents are suffering from bad health and an inability to pay their fuel bills. What can the Department do to help tackle those vested interests?

[Gregory Barker]

The hon. Lady is right and has a real point. The leasehold-freehold issue is one of the knottiest to tackle and has eluded successive Governments. I would be happy to sit down with her and look at that specific case to work out what more we can do to help the sorts of tenants to whom she refers.

[Mr Peter Lilley (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con)]

Will the Minister confirm that, even by his own contentious estimates purporting that thanks to his measures the average effect of reduced energy use will offset the increase due to green levies, taxes and subsidies, two-thirds of households will be worse off? Since giving those figures, the Government’s estimates of savings from energy-saving measures have been reduced.

[Gregory Barker]

I am afraid I just do not agree with my right hon. Friend, despite his considerable experience and knowledge of the sector. None of us knows for sure whose forecasts are right, and we will not know until the time. A great deal of uncertainty is attached to all forecasts, but the latest Government forecasts to 2020 show that consumers will be better off due to our policies.

[Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)]

15. What steps he is taking to ensure that oil from the North sea continues to make a contribution to UK energy needs; and if he will make a statement.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Mr John Hayes)]

The North sea has been a major UK success story, and oil and gas will continue to play a key role in the energy mix for years to come. The Government continue to promote activity and investment in the North sea, and we maintain a close dialogue with the industry on how to support its continued development.

[Michael Fabricant]

My hon. Friend knows that the Government have issued more exploration licences than ever before, which is fantastic. However, there are many mature wells from which about 80% of the oil has been extracted. How can we set up a new procedure whereby we wring every single last drop of oil from those mature wells, and benefit the UK economy accordingly?

[Mr Hayes]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right: North sea oil and gas have a long and bright future. He may not have seen the report from Oil & Gas UK—as you may not have done, Mr Speaker—but it states that we are seeing the highest investment in UK offshore oil and gas development on record. The Government, too, are doing their bit. The brownfield allowances have encouraged that investment, and this is about growth, jobs and skills, as well as energy. I look forward to a bright future in the North sea for the United Kingdom and all those who work in that wonderful industry.

[Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)]

Indeed, the oil industry does have a bright future; it is not a twilight industry. Miraculously, Scotland’s First Minister seems to have found a great deal more oil at the weekend, which will be very interesting to see. For the last drop to be wrung, as the hon. Member for Lichfield (Michael Fabricant) said, assets in the North sea will need to continue and many were not built to last as long as they have. What will the Government do to help companies to improve their asset integrity in the North sea?

[Mr Hayes]

The hon. Lady is, I am aware, the chair of the all-party group on British offshore oil and gas. I visited Aberdeen a week or so ago, and I am going again in a week or two. I have committed to visiting Aberdeen more often even than my predecessor, who had a proud record in that regard. We need to bring in a new type of investor to the North sea industry. To that end, I have run investment events that will encourage the industry to link up with a new breed of investor. She is right: infrastructure matters and we must facilitate the investment to rebuild that infrastructure.

[Charles Hendry (Wealden) (Con)]

I am delighted to hear that my hon. Friend will be visiting Aberdeen as often as I did, because I found that to be one of the most inspiring parts of the energy portfolio. What more can we do to support groundbreaking, world-class companies here in the UK supply chain, so that they can take advantage of the opportunities here and overseas, and we can get the industrial benefit alongside the energy benefit?

[Mr Hayes]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right, and let me repeat that he was highly thought of in the industry, not least due to his commitment to the visits he made and to his work. It is key to recognise that many small and medium-sized companies are a part of this exciting opportunity. Often we see this issue in terms of very large oil companies, but it is the SMEs that require the extra investment I described in answer to the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg).

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

16. What steps he is taking to increase the confidence of the energy sector to invest in new generating capacity.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Mr John Hayes)]

The UK is one of the most attractive places in the world to invest in energy infrastructure, and still more so since we published the Energy Bill. The certainty this provides is backed by complete cross-Government support unmatched by any other country in Europe.

[Mr Sheerman]

The Minister seems to be living in a parallel universe. I have a declared interest: I am on the environmental scrutiny board of Veolia, the environmental company. When I meet people who are being asked to make a long-term investment in the production of energy, they are very cautious of making any commitment at this time. What will he do about that? An energy gap, which is totally frightening for the people of this country, is emerging.

[Mr Hayes]

Just last week the Secretary of State, the Minister of State and I were in Downing street with the Prime Minister, making exactly the case to the investment community for which the hon. Gentleman is calling. I want him to join me in my universe. That universe is the universe of optimism, the universe of growth, the universe of success.

[Caroline Flint (Don Valley) (Lab)]

There was not much good news for bill payers in the answer to my last question, so let me try one about businesses. I am glad to hear about the summit in No. 10. Ministers say that investment in energy infrastructure is at a record high, but four out of five of the projects that they claim credit for either received planning permission or started construction under Labour. My hon. Friend the Member for Corby (Andy Sawford) earlier quoted independent sources saying that under this Government investment in clean energy has fallen by half. Businesses are saying that what they need now to invest is a target in law to decarbonise the power sector by 2030. Why will the Government not listen to them?

[Mr Hayes]

I have all sorts of prepared notes but I am not going to use them because the answer to this question is as plain as this: it is fine to have targets; targets matter because they signal direction. However, one must have weapons to hit those targets. What the Government have done that the previous Government did not—I do not want to be excessively critical—is put measures in the Energy Bill that will allow us to develop the weapons to hit targets. That is what investment is about: meeting targets, not setting them.

[Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)]

17. What steps he is taking to increase competition in the energy market.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)]

Like my hon. Friend, we want more competition. One of the biggest barriers to entry and to greater competition is low liquidity in the wholesale power market. Ofgem is currently taking forward reforms to address that issue, and we are supportive of its progress, but the Government are also seeking backstop powers in the Energy Bill to allow us to act, should Ofgem and industry actions prove insufficient.

[Mr Baron]

I thank the Minister for that response. The billing stakeholder group produced a number of recommendations to increase competition, including putting more tailored information on the face of quarterly bills. Those recommendations were taken up by Ofgem and they chime with what the Prime Minister has said, but we know that the energy companies oppose them. Will the Minister give us an assurance that the energy companies will not be allowed to row back on those recommendations?

[Gregory Barker]

Yes, I can. I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for ensuring that these proposals, which will make a transformational difference to consumer bills, end up being enacted, and for the work of his stakeholder group. I can tell him that the proposals will be part of the licence conditions, and that if energy companies fail to deliver on them, they could be fined up to 10% of turnover. We are of course taking powers in the Energy Bill as well.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

18. What recent assessment he has made of progress in the marine renewable sector.

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)]

The most recent assessment of the marine energy sector was undertaken last year in the UK renewable energy road map. Our assessment showed that marine energy had real potential to contribute to our emission reduction targets beyond 2020. Up to the end of last year, 11 MW of wave and tidal technologies were deployed around the UK, but the coalition Government have big ambitions for the sector, which could expand to as much as 27 GW in the coming decades.

[Andrew George]

I am grateful to the Minister for that response. The £20 million investment that was announced two weeks ago is very welcome for marine renewables, but it will go into the tidal sector, which is already reasonably well developed. There are also major opportunities in wave power, however. Will the Minister meet me and industry representatives to try to move the wave hub forward and to bring it up to a commercial scale?

[Gregory Barker]

Most certainly; I know that my hon. Friend is a powerful champion of wave power. I am delighted with the progress of the marine energy park in the south-west. I was there last week for the RenewableUK conference to witness the signing of a memorandum between the south-west marine energy park and the Pentland Firth and Orkney waters marine energy park. I would be delighted to work with my hon. Friend to see what more we can do to drive the exciting progress in this sector.

[Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)]

T1. If he will make a statement on his departmental responsibilities.

[The Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change (Mr Edward Davey)]

The core purpose of the Department of Energy and Climate Change is to power the country and protect the planet, and to avoid catastrophic climate change while providing secure, affordable energy supplies to the UK.

I want to take this opportunity to express my regret at the closure of Daw Mill colliery following a fire. The closure will be felt keenly by the communities surrounding the colliery, and particularly by the families of those whose jobs are threatened as a result. We are in close contact with UK Coal and the unions to try to develop a way forward, as the Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes) said earlier. Since the last oral questions, the Energy Bill has continued its passage through this House and we remain on track.

[Andrew Jones]

There are proposals to create what will be the largest onshore wind farm in the country on the edge of my constituency. I am a huge supporter of renewable energy, but I have major reservations about onshore wind, as I believe it is very expensive and unreliable. I am therefore not at all supportive of the proposals. Does the Secretary of State agree that we have enough onshore wind farms already?

[Mr Davey]

I am sorry to disappoint my hon. Friend but I cannot agree with that bold statement, not least because onshore wind is one of the cheapest—if not the cheapest—of the large-scale renewable technologies. It has huge benefits. The planning system is important, however, and local communities can have a say on these matters. One reason that we published the call for evidence on community benefits was to ensure that local communities benefit more from hosting such installations.

[Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)]

T3. The village of Salsburgh in my constituency is not on the gas distribution network, which means that the inhabitants have to spend more money on electric and oil heating systems. That situation is replicated throughout the country. What are the Government going to do to tackle the issue?

[Mr Davey]

The hon. Lady raises an important issue, and it is one that many hon. Members have experienced in their constituencies. In the past, people who are off the gas grid have not had the support they deserve, but the Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings is looking into the matter. We are looking at tackling fuel poverty through mechanisms such as collective switching, for example, and at renewable heat, which can really help people who are off grid. We are looking across the range of our policies to see whether we can help.

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

T2. In my Stroud constituency, we have a large number of innovative energy firms eager to pursue research and development projects. One area I think worth developing is energy storage, particularly storing electricity, which answers quite a few questions about engineering and providing an industrial base, as well as the peak problem in relation to renewable energy. What measures will the Government take to encourage investment in energy storage?

[Mr Davey]

My hon. Friend is absolutely right. I think energy storage technology holds out massive potential for the future, and UK firms are at the cutting edge of some of these technologies. When we finalised the Energy Bill, we said that we were minded to run a capacity market next year. One thing we would do with that is to have an early capacity market auction for demand-side response and storage technologies. That would send a very clear signal to these innovators.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Let me remind colleagues of the premium on brevity at topical questions. I want to get through everybody’s question so Members need to help me to help them.

[Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)]

T5. I have written previously to his Department, so the Secretary of State should be aware that the people of Merseyside pay more for their electricity than people anywhere else in England. Will he therefore insist that Ofgem recommends a price reduction so that people in Liverpool pay the same tariff as others elsewhere in the country?

[Mr Davey]

I am sure Ofgem will have heard the hon. Gentleman’s question. He will also know that Ofgem has proposed major reforms of tariff, which we believe will help many people, particularly those stranded on the so-called dead tariffs who are paying far more than they need to. This will, I believe, support competition in the market. Let me point out that the hon. Gentleman’s Front-Bench team is in favour of abolishing Ofgem—a particularly interesting position.

[Chris White (Warwick and Leamington) (Con)]

T4. In my constituency, a number of groups are looking at ways to set up new renewable energy projects. However, I have met some who have faced barriers from organisations such as the Environmental Protection Agency and other Government bodies. Will the Minister outline what help is being given to local community groups to get their organisations off the ground and will he look at ways of ensuring that the regulatory regime is proportionate both in cost and time to the scale of the projects involved?

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Gregory Barker)]

This coalition is absolutely committed to driving a transformation in the take-up of community energy, so we are really keen to help community groups such as the ones my hon. Friend mentions. That is why we established LEAF—the local energy assessment fund—with £10 million and the low carbon communities challenge with up to £20 million. I would be delighted to talk to my hon. Friend about how we can help his communities to access that cash.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

T7. What could be more topical than a challenge to the recently announced infallibility of the Minister of State, the hon. Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes). Indeed, there has been such a challenge—from Mitsubishi, Vestas, Alstom, Areva, Doosan and Gamesa. The Minister maintains that there should be no decarbonisation target until 2016; they have said that postponing the 2030 target decision until 2016 creates entirely avoidable political risks and slow growth in the low-carbon sector, handicaps the UK supply chain, reduces UK research and development and produces fewer jobs.

[Mr Speaker]

Order. We are grateful; we have got the gist.

[Mr Davey]

I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s question. I have seen that letter. He will know that there is a case, which I have supported, for bringing this forward and setting a target in 2014, but we have reached an agreement across the coalition. I think it is a very sensible agreement, because we are the first Government ever to propose setting a decarbonisation target. I think we should be proud of that. Rather than talking it down, the Opposition should realise that we have moved further and faster than they did.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

T6. I want to thank the Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes) for hosting a constructive meeting with the Welsh Assembly Member Russell George and myself earlier this week about planning permission for onshore wind farms and associated infrastructure in mid-Wales. Will the Minister tell us how he intends to ensure that more weight be given to the view of planning authorities and local communities when they fiercely oppose wind farms in their areas?

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Mr John Hayes)]

The Secretary of State has said—and I can do no more than echo his words:

“I am clear that local people and their councils should not feel bullied into accepting proposals they do not want.”

It is critical to listen to local communities. The call for evidence that my right hon. Friend has mentioned is, in turn, critical to that. I am delighted that I was able to meet my hon. Friend and his colleagues. He will await our response to the call for evidence with interest, as will the whole House, and I am sure it will be very good news.

[John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)]

Further to Question 2 on the deep-mining industry outlined by my hon. Friends, Britain could be facing a sharp rise in the importation of coal. On that basis, what assessment has the Minister made of the future security of energy supply in Britain?

[Mr Hayes]

Coal matters, for reasons of energy security, but jobs and skills matter too. People who do a dirty, difficult, dangerous job deserve our respect and support. The job that they do helps our energy security, and the Government understand that, which is why we will work to preserve that security and protect those people.

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

T8. The United Kingdom is not alone in Europe in wanting to build new nuclear power stations. How can we co-operate with other European countries to our advantage, without ceding further powers to them?

[Mr Davey]

Only just last week we hosted, here in London, a meeting of EU member states which either have nuclear power or want to invest in it. We are working with them, not just looking for opportunities for new finance and so forth, but trying to ensure, together, that the EU understands the case for investment in low-carbon energy sources such as nuclear power.

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

In their response to the Environment Audit Committee’s report “Protecting the Arctic”, the Government said that oil drilling would be necessary in the Arctic to preserve domestic energy security and meet global demand. That was based on projections in the 2011 World Energy Outlook report. However, the 2012 report shows that projected demand can be met entirely by production from already discovered fields. Will the Government be reviewing their position in the light of that?

[Mr Davey]

As we said in our response to the Committee, we are working with members of the Arctic Council, which are the key countries that develop policies of that kind. We do not have the power to infringe their sovereignty, and I would not wish that, but we are working closely with them, particularly with close colleagues such as Norway.

[Mr Adrian Sanders (Torbay) (LD)]

T9. Many of my constituents are concerned about fracking, but I am not aware of any applications for fracking in the south Devon area. Can the Minister reassure my constituents that the Government are not aware of any such applications?

[Mr Hayes]

As the hon. Gentleman will know, we have established an office for unconventional gas and oil precisely in order to co-ordinate such matters. It is absolutely right for us to explore this opportunity, which could prove very fruitful, but we must do so in a safe and secure way, and a way that encourages communities to understand the benefits that it can bring them as well as the whole nation.

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

The CBI estimates that more than a third of the pitiful economic growth that we saw last year came from the green economy. Why is the Secretary of State listening to the Chancellor rather than to green businesses, which say that they want a target in law for the decarbonisation of the energy sector by 2030 and they want that target now?

[Mr Davey]

The hon. Gentleman is right: green growth enables our economy to perform. We are seeing green growth, and I welcome that. I have been working closely with the Chancellor. The deal that we agreed before Christmas will mean a tripling of support for renewable energy, and, for the first time, the power to set a decarbonisation target will be put into law. That provides a framework that the last Government did not provide.

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

I am concerned by the Secretary of State’s brush-off of my constituency neighbour, my hon. Friend the Member for Harrogate and Knaresborough (Andrew Jones), in connection with the Penny Pot Lane wind development. Communities throughout north Yorkshire are being bullied by wind companies, and money is being wasted. Will the Secretary of State meet me, and other north Yorkshire Members of Parliament, to discuss why the Liberal Democrat obsession with wind is not what north Yorkshire wants?

[Mr Davey]

I did not give my hon. Friend’s neighbour a brush-off. His hon. Friend—and my hon. Friend—asked me whether I thought that we had enough onshore wind. I do not think that, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for Skipton and Ripon (Julian Smith) knows, Secretaries of State rightly do not comment on local planning applications.

[Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)]

The last Labour Government helped to lift 1.75 million people out of fuel poverty. Does the Secretary of State expect next year’s fuel poverty figures, which will show for the first time what has happened under this Government, to reveal that fuel poverty has risen or fallen on his watch?

[Mr Davey]

I must remind the hon. Gentleman that the figures based on the old way of counting show that fuel poverty increased under the last Government. This Government have conducted an independent review of the way in which fuel poverty is measured, and it showed that the last Government could not even measure it correctly. According to the old measurement, the Queen was sometimes in fuel poverty. However, we are reforming not just the measurement of fuel poverty but the policies themselves, and I shall be producing a fuel poverty strategy later this year.

[Mr Marcus Jones (Nuneaton) (Con)]

I want to thank the Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for South Holland and The Deepings (Mr Hayes) for the care and support he has shown for the workers at the Daw Mill colliery during this difficult time. In addition to the work he is doing, will he make representations to the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills to ensure that it is fully engaged with local organisations in the provision of careers advice, support and retraining opportunities for the workers who cannot be redeployed in the coal industry?

[Mr Hayes]

My hon. Friend has been a powerful champion of his constituents in this regard, as have my hon. Friends the Members for Sherwood (Mr Spencer) and for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles) of their constituents. I will, indeed, do what has been asked. In fact, I already have: there will be a bespoke tailored event run with local colleges, local authorities and Jobcentre Plus aimed at providing new job opportunities and reskilling for those who find themselves made redundant.

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

The Hills fuel poverty review said that unless the Government changed course a further 200,000 families would be in fuel poverty within four years. Does the Secretary of State agree with the Hills conclusions, and if not, will he place in the Library the evidence on which he is basing his views?

[Mr Davey]

Professor John Hills’ report was extremely welcome and had a very important analysis. In reforming the design of the ECO, we took account of the understandings and research Professor Hills laid out, and that is also one of the reasons why we will be developing and publishing a fuel poverty strategy to show we are serious about tackling this issue.

[Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)]

In how many of the homes in need of improved insulation does the Minister expect measures to be taken over the remainder of this Parliament?

[Gregory Barker]

We do not have an exact figure, but we do think the green deal framework, supported by the ECO, is the best way of driving forward the very ambitious take-up of insulation measures that we will need not just in this Parliament, but throughout the decade.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am sure the Secretary of State knows about the Innovate UK conference held in Islington in London this week. Will he take a greater interest in clean, energy-efficient, sustainable production? There is a great market for Britain in this field; we lead the world, but we need leadership to make sure we conquer China, India and other markets.

[Mr Davey]

I was not aware of that particular conference, but I did attend an exhibition called Ecobuild, which showed many British companies that are innovating in saving energy. I am extremely aware of companies that are involved in clean energy, and I am working with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills to develop supply-chain policies so not only are low-carbon technologies developed, but innovating British firms get the benefit and we have green jobs in this country.

Alcohol: Minimum Unit Price

Thursday 14th March 2013 Commons Chamber

10:32

[Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)]

(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what is the Government’s policy on alcohol pricing?

[The Minister of State, Home Department (Mr Jeremy Browne)]

I am aware that there have been a significant number of media reports and stories in recent days about the Government’s proposal to introduce a minimum unit price, and I am grateful for the opportunity to clarify the Government’s position.

The Government are determined to find the best way to diminish the misuse of alcohol. Over 44% of violent crime is alcohol-related. Fighting, antisocial behaviour and public drunkenness are familiar sights in many city centres, and there were 1.2 million alcohol-related hospital admissions in 2010-11. That is the context of our policy making and our inheritance from the previous Government. In March last year the Government published our alcohol strategy, which set out a range of measures to tackle the harms caused by excessive alcohol consumption.

The Government have already introduced a wide set of reforms to tackle binge drinking and the corrosive effect it has on individuals and our communities.  We have done the following: rebalanced the Licensing Act 2003 in favour of local communities by, for instance, removing the “vicinity test” to ensure that anyone, no matter where they live, can have input into a decision to grant or revoke a licence; introduced a late-night levy, making those businesses that sell alcohol late at night contribute to the cost of policing and wider local authority action; and introduced the early-morning alcohol restriction order, enabling local areas to restrict the sale of alcohol late at night in all or part of their area if there are problems.

The Home Office has also recently consulted on a range of new proposals set out in its alcohol strategy—this is a wide-ranging consultation—and it includes a ban on multibuy promotions in shops and off-licences to reduce excessive alcohol consumption; a review of the mandatory licensing conditions to ensure they are sufficiently targeting problems such as irresponsible promotions in pubs and clubs; health as a new alcohol licensing objective for cumulative impacts, so that licensing authorities can consider alcohol-related health harms when managing the problems relating to the number of premises in their area; cutting red tape for responsible businesses to reduce the burden of regulation, while maintaining the integrity of the licensing system; and the introduction of a minimum unit price.

The public consultation opened on 28 November— I imagine that all Members present contributed to it, given their interest in the subject—and closed on 6 February. We received a large number of responses covering a very wide range of views, including from members of the public, the police and licensing authorities, health organisations, alcohol producers and retailers, trade bodies and charities.

On minimum unit pricing, there were—and are, in my view—powerful arguments on both sides of the debate. We have to ensure that we base our decision on a careful consideration of all the representations we received. We are evaluating the data precisely and we will announce our decision when this careful evaluation is completed.

[Yvette Cooper]

I asked what the Government’s policy was on alcohol pricing and I am still none the wiser. Yesterday, the Prime Minister said,

“we must deal with the problem of 20p or 25p cans of lager…in supermarkets”—[Official Report, 13 March 2013; Vol. 560, c. 307.]

But the Home Secretary has briefed that she has blocked minimum price plans. The Health Secretary said yesterday,

“Like the Prime Minister I believe there is a case for minimum pricing”,

but we have no idea what they are doing, and it seems that the Minister does not, either. And where is the Home Secretary? I have to say that I feel sorry for the Minister, who has been sent here to waffle to the world while the Home Secretary hides. She was skulking at Prime Minister’s questions yesterday, and her office will not tell me where she is today. There is something Macavity-like about this Home Secretary.

What kind of mug is the Minister? War has clearly broken out between the Home Secretary and the Prime Minister, but while they hide in their trenches, the Liberal Democrats once again have been sent over the top. The Home Secretary was quick enough to come to this House when the policy was first announced. It was her policy; she supported it. When she set the price nine months later, she had no doubt. The Home Office document said that the Government are

“committed to introducing a minimum unit price. However, in other areas”

this consultation

“seeks views on the introduction of policies.”

So they were not consulting on the minimum price—they had made a decision.

We know that the Home Secretary has overruled the Prime Minister; it appears she has also overruled herself. It was her plan; she has announced it twice. She said she was committed to it; now, she says the opposite. It is clear that this right hon. Lady is for turning—just not for turning up.

Alcohol abuse is very serious: to public health, and to law and order. We said that the Government were right to look at minimum pricing, but they needed to make sure that supermarkets did not just get a windfall and that the pub trade would not be harmed. They needed to look at the evidence and make sure the policies were workable. Instead, we have chaos and political confusion, and I ask the Minister again: what is the Government’s policy on alcohol pricing? The Prime Minister’s authority is in tatters; the Home Secretary’s credibility is in tatters; and the rest of us, including the Minister, do not have a clue what is going on.

[Mr Browne]

I read in the papers that the right hon. Lady fancies herself as the leader of her party. That was not a particularly impressive application. I am here as the Minister responsible for alcohol policy. She said she has no idea what the policy is, but I have just spent five minutes explaining it. There was a lot of barracking from Labour MPs because they thought I was explaining it in excessive detail—that was how I understood it. I have explained the policy carefully. There is a consultation on the areas that I mentioned. The question people want answered is: what on earth is Labour’s policy on this? [Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The House really must calm down. It is in a very excitable condition, from which I hope it can be relieved by the hon. Member for Kettering, Mr Philip Hollobone.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Was the balance of responses to the consultation in favour of or against minimum alcohol pricing?

[Mr Browne]

There is a range—

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

A range of answers.

[Mr Browne]

There is a range of answers. [Laughter.] There is a serious point here and it will emerge in this session, so let me address it. There are young people who drink cheap alcohol in excessive quantities and are price-sensitive when buying alcohol, so they are likely to be deterred from buying alcohol, to a degree, by minimum unit pricing. However, people on low incomes who consume alcohol responsibly would pay more under minimum unit pricing, and a number of representations have stated that the policy is unreasonable on that basis. We have to weigh up all those representations and points of view. The previous Government did not consider this matter at all. We are considering it carefully and will announce our conclusions when we are ready to do so.

[Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)]

Is the Minister not aware that the very low price of the alcohol sold in supermarkets and convenience stores is the fundamental problem behind the abuse of alcohol and that is not only, in turn, leading, as the university of Sheffield has estimated, to 10,000 unnecessary deaths over 10 years, but it is harming the decent pub trade and accelerating the closure of pubs? So this policy will benefit responsible drinking and also greatly reduce the health harm to a large number of young people. Why does the Minister not just get on and implement it? [Interruption.]

[Mr Browne]

As is being said around me, the right hon. Gentleman seems to have made a good case for why he should have taken action when he was Home Secretary. He chose not to do that, but he has explained one side of the argument on minimum unit pricing, and a number of representations replicated the point he has just made.

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

Will my hon. Friend bear it in mind that we could have minimum pricing in Scotland but not in England? Will he condemn the irresponsible policy of the Labour party on Northumberland county council, which is that if that happens Northumberland should be promoted as a cheap booze destination for Scots?

[Mr Browne]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. The Labour party’s policy in Northumberland is not a matter for the Minister of State—[Interruption.] Order. I do not require any assistance from the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry); she would not have the slightest idea where to start. The Minister may offer a brief view on this matter if he so wishes.

[Mr Browne]

Mercifully, the irresponsible attitudes of the Labour party are not my responsibility, but I can assure my right hon. Friend that the sort of irresponsible behaviour that people have become accustomed to from the Labour party will not be replicated by this Government.

[Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)]

It is a shame that the Minister cannot confirm the reports that Ministers have given to the press about this policy being abandoned. If those reports are true, will he, on my behalf, thank the Home Secretary for and congratulate her on actually looking at the evidence? There is no evidence that a minimum price would reduce problem drinking, far more effective interventions are available and this policy would devastate the west country cider industry. Will he assure me that this sudden outbreak of evidence-based policy will spread to other Ministers, including the Chancellor?

[Mr Browne]

The right hon. Gentleman, too, makes a strong argument, one diametrically opposed to that being made by the former Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), who is sitting two places down from him,. That shows precisely why we are having a consultation; it might help the Labour party to come to conclusions, as well as the Government.

[Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con)]

The evidence from Canada and the university of Sheffield shows that the policy would have an impact, but minimum pricing should be just one aspect of tackling the problem of alcohol misuse in the UK. When Kent and Medway have almost 130 children under 17 receiving treatment for alcohol addiction, does my hon. Friend the Minister agree that minimum pricing is an essential way of getting some of our most vulnerable members of society away from access to high-strength, low-cost alcohol?

[Mr Browne]

I know that my hon. Friend takes a close interest in these issues. It is undoubtedly true to say, regardless of what conclusion one reaches on this issue, that some young people with low disposable incomes drink irresponsibly and are price-sensitive when buying alcohol. They are a particular problem. The question that we need to resolve is whether minimum unit pricing is the best way of tackling that problem, but that is precisely why we are having a consultation, and we will announce our conclusions when we are ready to do so.

[Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)]

Four years ago the Home Affairs Committee unanimously recommended minimum pricing for alcohol.

[Mr Bradshaw]

It was wrong.

[Keith Vaz]

My right hon. Friend was not on the Committee so he was not part of that recommendation. Powerful arguments have been made by the hon. Member for Chatham and Aylesford (Tracey Crouch) and the hon. Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) on health grounds. The Minister will also know it costs an extra £59 per person for the police to process someone who is involved in alcohol-related crime. Given the powerful arguments in the consultation and in the Cabinet, on either side on this issue, when will we have a final decision?

[Mr Browne]

During my initial response, when Labour Members were sneering and jeering, I was explaining about early morning restriction orders and the late-night levy, which are precisely the types of measures that the Government have taken to address the problems the right hon. Gentleman raises. Of course there are health considerations as well, although one could make the case for an ever higher minimum unit on the basis that the higher the price, the greater the reduction in health harms. A balance needs to be struck, and we are seeking to strike it through the consultation. We will announce our conclusions when we have finished.

[Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)]

It is not only the entire medical establishment that backs minimum pricing on health grounds. I would like to read to the crime prevention Minister an e-mail I have received from a street pastor and to tell him what I am hearing from the special constables and police in my area. They say:

“There is no doubt that the availability of cheap alcohol enables people to get into the habit of being very drunk, very often.”

That has disastrous consequences on our streets. A third of people are unwilling to go out into their town centres.

What is the crime prevention Minister’s personal view? It would be a shame if he became the crime promotion Minister.

[Mr Browne]

Again, I recognise the keen interest that my hon. Friend takes in these issues. I am aware that many people in the health sector share her view. The logic of their argument, as I have just said, is why stop at 45p? If we had a £1 minimum unit price, the health case would be made all the more strongly. The Government have to balance all kinds of competing concerns and other, also compelling, concerns about the affordability of alcohol for people on low incomes. They have to balance the role of the state and of the private individual and what choices the individual is free to make. Great tensions have become evident this morning in the Labour party, and the Government also have issues that they need to resolve.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

The Minister will know that in Scotland we have our own plans for minimum unit pricing for alcohol to tackle our excessive consumption. It might surprise him to know that in Scotland the Labour party is opposed to the plans and will do all it can to thwart them. Will the Minister assure me that he will work closely with our Government to ensure that at least we can start to deal with our alcohol problems in Scotland?

[Mr Browne]

The Department of Health in London meets Health Ministers and officials in Edinburgh and we are keen to try to ensure that the harm caused by alcohol across the United Kingdom is addressed seriously. I am distressed to learn that the Labour party is so inconsistent on this matter. I thought being a credible Opposition involved having credible policy positions, but we have not reached that stage yet.

[David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that more needs to be done to keep pubs open so that people can drink under some supervision? If we are to do that, the price of drink in pubs must be considered. Will he discuss the beer duty escalator with the Chancellor?

[Mr Browne]

That is a consideration but there have been changes in how people consume alcohol. If the hon. Gentleman looks at the consumption of different types of alcohol, he will see that beer sales have gone down and wine sales have risen sharply. In many cases people are choosing to drink wine at home to a greater extent than would have been the case a generation ago. All those factors need to be borne in mind and that is precisely why we are ensuring that we get the details of the consultation right.

[Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab)]

The Home Secretary said a little while ago that the price of alcohol was causing fighting in town centres and that the minimum unit price was the answer. Has the fighting died down, or does the Minister think that it has merely been transferred to the Government Front Benches?

[Mr Browne]

The answer is that crime is at its lowest level since the independent crime survey of England and Wales began in 1981, 32 years ago. Crime is markedly lower—more than 10% lower—than it was when the Government came into office. The points the hon. Gentleman mentions about alcohol are all being considered as part of the consultation.

[Martin Vickers (Cleethorpes) (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that minimum unit pricing would yet again mean that the responsible and law-abiding were paying for the irresponsible behaviour of others? Does he agree with the majority of my constituents who, although they recognise the complexities of the situation, would like to see a robust response from the police and courts?

[Mr Browne]

My hon. Friend makes a strong argument that replicates to a degree the one made by the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw). Let us say, for the sake of argument, that an elderly person on a low income bought one cheap bottle of wine a week, on average, because they could not afford to buy a more expensive bottle. There is a strong argument against financially penalising that person by introducing a minimum unit price that would increase the cost of that bottle of wine when they are consuming the wine entirely responsibly and causing no wider social ills. Those are exactly the sort of issues that grown-up and responsible Governments must consider carefully.

[Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)]

The Prime Minister said yesterday that he would take action to stop the problem of 20p or 25p cans of lager being sold in supermarkets. How will he do that?

[Mr Browne]

I remind Opposition Members that nothing was done about these problems—[Interruption.] The idea that alcohol suddenly became cheap in May 2010 and lots of social ills came about as a result—[Interruption.]

[Mr Speaker]

Order. Throughout this urgent question there has been too much noise. Frankly, there is too much noise from those on the Opposition Benches, and I have to say to the junior Health Minister that she tends to behave as though every exchange is somehow a conversation with her—[Interruption.] Order. Do not shake your head. If the Government had wanted to put the hon. Lady up to answer, they could have done. They did not. In all courtesy, I say to her: sit there, be quiet and if you cannot do so, leave the Chamber. We can manage without you.

[Mr Browne]

Perhaps I should say in answer to the question from the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) that we are having a thorough consultation, which has finished. We are considering the results and the way in which we will arrive at the best outcome will be announced in due course.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

The central problem appears to be the anti-competitive behaviour of supermarkets that sell alcohol below the cost price. Does my hon. Friend agree that rather than introducing a minimum price, a ban should be introduced on measures that distort the market?

[Mr Browne]

My hon. Friend makes a strong point about anti-competitive practices. My personal view is that selling alcohol below cost price—leaving aside for a moment arguments about health harms and law and order considerations—is an uncompetitive practice, which is unfair on other retailers who cannot afford to subsidise their product. But a minimum unit price of 45p would lead to alcohol being sold considerably above cost price, so different considerations apply in that case.

[Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)]

I will give the Minister another chance at the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood), pointing out that the Prime Minister said yesterday that he would take action to stop the problem of 20p or 25p cans of lager being available in supermarkets. Can the Minister give us clarity on how that is going to happen?

[Mr Browne]

I am giving clarity. I am explaining that there has been a widespread consultation process. There are a large number of factors that a mature, responsible Government would need to consider carefully. That is what this mature, responsible Government are doing, and when we are in a position to announce the conclusions, we will do so.

[Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that local initiatives to tackle alcohol misuse, such as the Crawley and Gatwick business watch scheme to label high strength alcohol and restrict its sale, have an important part to play?

[Mr Browne]

Yes, I agree that localism has an important part to play. We have sought to reflect that in the way we have changed licensing regulations—precisely the sort of practical, locally responsive measures that appear to be treated with contempt by the Opposition but are welcomed by communities across the country.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

Last year, in the foreword to the Government’s alcohol strategy, the Prime Minister stated:

“So we are going to introduce a new minimum unit price. For the first time it will be illegal for shops to sell alcohol for less than this set price per unit.”

When did that change?

[Mr Browne]

I fear the hon. Gentleman is confusing two separate issues—cost price and a minimum unit price. A minimum unit price of 45p, which is what the Government consulted on—in Scotland the proposed MUP is 50p, but we consulted on 45p—would price a typical 12.5% bottle of wine at about £4.20. Obviously, many bottles of wine currently retail at less than £4.20 but are not sold at a loss. That, I think, is the point of confusion for the hon. Gentleman. I have already said that selling alcohol below cost price is anti-competitive, but whether an artificial price floor should be put in by Government is precisely what we are considering in the consultation.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

May I thank the Minister for the way in which he has answered the urgent question? He has been exceptionally clear and he has been listening, like a great democrat. He is not in his Stalinist mode today. Does he agree that the last thing the people of Wellingborough want to see is alcohol prices artificially increased? Average families in my constituency are very concerned about a minimum price.

[Mr Browne]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his characteristic warm reception for Liberal Democrat Ministers. There are two strands to the case being made against minimum unit pricing, both of which clearly have some force. One is about charging people who may have low disposable income more than they would otherwise pay for alcohol, even when there is no evidence to suggest that all those people are drinking irresponsibly. The second is a wider liberal or perhaps libertarian argument about the role of the state and the right of the individual to make choices that he or she wishes to make, free from a more prescriptive view by Government. Both cases were made to us during the consultation and are part of our considerations.

[Wayne David (Caerphilly) (Lab)]

Given that the Home Secretary has announced her personal support for minimum unit pricing on two separate occasions, will the Minister confirm that she has changed her mind?

[Mr Browne]

I am not in a position to announce the results of our consultation; if I were, I would be announcing the results of our consultation. There are genuine issues to be considered on both sides. I have tried to answer them as openly as it is possible for a Minister to do, but they are exactly the issues that we are weighing up.

[Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)]

As I am sure my hon. Friend agrees, judging by the questions coming from the Opposition, we are not sure what they are organising in a brewery on this issue. Given that the Health Committee looked at the evidence and came to the unanimous conclusion that it was in favour, does the Minister think that the House should have a free vote on the matter if we cannot come to a conclusion?

[Mr Browne]

These are not matters that I am responsible for, I regret to say. On the point about the Health Committee, I am aware of its view. I suppose the only point I would make is that we would expect the Select Committee that was responsible for health matters to have a particular perspective on the issue. If we had a libertarian Select Committee, it might say that people should be free to drink even in ways that damaged their health, which would also be a legitimate point of view. I am not saying that, just because the Health Committee’s perspective is predictable, it is not relevant; of course it is relevant, but it is one of a number of points of view, all of which we are considering as part of the consultation.

[Mr Russell Brown (Dumfries and Galloway) (Lab)]

As a member of the all-party group on alcohol misuse, I believe that minimum unit pricing is only one of a number of tools in the box. The Minister attended one of our meetings a number of months back. Can he explain why some of his views today have changed from what he said on that occasion?

[Mr Browne]

I do not accept that they have. I enjoyed the conversation that I had and I recognise that there are harms caused by alcohol. In fact, at the beginning of my answer to the question, about half an hour or so ago, I talked about violent crime and how much of it is alcohol related, about the atmosphere in town and city centres—everybody in the House will know from their constituencies how disconcerting many of our constituents find such behaviour—and about the number of hospital admissions that are alcohol-related. I therefore recognise that there are serious concerns, but there are issues that need to be balanced. Otherwise, we would logically end up with the Government being urged to ban alcohol sales altogether—as far as I am aware, nobody is urging us to do that—or with a minimum unit price of, say, £5 rather than 45p. That would have a very big impact on alcohol consumption, but there are other, competing concerns that would not be addressed by going down that route. That is why a Government who govern responsibly for the whole country need to consider all these matters.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. These are extremely important matters and I am keen to accommodate remaining colleagues, but if we can have pithy questions and pithy answers, that would be helpful.

[Mr David Burrowes (Enfield, Southgate) (Con)]

It is not media reports or the balance of representations that matters, but the weight of evidence, which includes the impact on the 2.6 million children who live with a hazardous drinker and the 705,000 who live with a dependent drinker. For the sake of the hidden harm to those children, can we follow not the loudest voices, but the increasing evidence from Europe and, recently, Canada showing that affordability, consumption and reducing harm are inextricably linked?

[Mr Browne]

I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for his vigilant championing of the interests of children in households where such disadvantages blight their upbringing. I take seriously the point he makes. There is a range of concerns. There is a serious issue—Labour Members and others might wish to mull this over—about whether someone on a relatively high income who drinks a bottle of wine every evening should be treated differently from someone on a low income who drinks a much cheaper bottle of wine every evening. The second person could face a dramatic increase in the price of a bottle of wine under minimum unit pricing, whereas the first person, with the higher income, will almost certainly be buying a bottle of wine that is already above the minimum unit price. These issues must be considered as well, because it is reasonable for a Government to consider the impact on all parts of society.

[Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)]

I genuinely feel sorry for the Minister, because he has been thrown into the trenches and then over the top into Opposition fire to try to deal with the consequences of the Prime Minister over-speaking at Prime Minister’s questions, which seems to happen quite a lot, but I must press him on this. The Prime Minister said yesterday that he would stop the problem of 20p or 25p cans of lager, but what are the Government going to do?

[Mr Browne]

I would feel more sorry for myself if the Opposition could fire straight, but they seem to have formed a circle and been busy picking each other off, probably because the shadow Home Secretary showed a lamentable lack of policy clarity. [Interruption.] When she got to her feet, she seemed to have no idea what she thinks at all, so everyone on the Labour Benches—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. These exchanges are still very highly charged, but the Minister is entitled to be heard and must not be shouted down.

[Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)]

A member of my family is an alcoholic. Minimum unit pricing would not make one jot of difference, because 50p here or there would not break her addiction. Greater resources and co-ordination of support services are the priority; it is there that the industry and Government should be leading.

[Mr Browne]

I am very sorry to hear what my hon. Friend says. I think that it is important, amid all the party political knockabout, that we realise and respect the fact that this is a very serious issue for hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people across the country, and they want politicians to address it properly and with consideration. With regard to price sensitivity, there is good reason to believe that different people in different circumstances are more price responsive than others, which is why this is a harder issue to tackle than it might appear after cursory inspection. I accept his point that people who have become accustomed to drinking large quantities of alcohol as a matter of course might be less price sensitive than, for example, younger people who are looking to drink alcohol to excess for the first time. Of course, we need to take a range of different measures into account when trying to help people in those circumstances.

[Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)]

I have to say that I do not agree with my hon. Friend the Member for West Ham (Lyn Brown), for a change, because I do not feel sorry for the Minister. I think that he would do well to remember that his Government have been in power for three years. Perhaps if he spent less time attacking the Labour party and more time formulating policy, he would not be in the mess he is in this morning. In response to my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan), the Minister said—I think that he had better listen to this question—that the Government had not previously proposed a policy of banning the sale of alcohol below the cost of duty and VAT, but that was certainly my impression of their policy. Is he now saying that was never the Government’s policy and that it is not being considered in the consultation?

[Mr Browne]

After the grown-up, and in many ways sad, representation from my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson), I am sorry that the hon. Lady did not rise to the occasion a little more. Since the Government came to office in May 2010, crime has fallen. In fact, it is now lower than it was in any of the 13 years Labour was in government. Alcohol consumption overall has also fallen since 2010, but that could mask the fact that some people might still be consuming alcohol to excess. Around 40% of the alcohol consumed in the country is consumed by 10% of the population, so there might be great hidden harms below those headline figures.

[Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)]

On behalf of the responsible drinkers of Amber Valley, I thank the Government for reconsidering this excessive nanny state policy. Has he considered what the policy might do to encourage further the already serious problem of the illegal sale of non-duty-paid alcohol?

[Mr Browne]

My hon. Friend makes a very strong point. The higher the Government set an artificial floor for legally acquired alcohol, the greater the profitability of distributing alcohol that does not comply with the Government’s own regulations. That is another of the points that make this issue a little more complicated, if one looks at it in a mature and reflective way, than it may appear if one looks at it from a cursory, party political perspective.

[Alison Seabeck (Plymouth, Moor View) (Lab)]

This is a serious issue, and the public take it seriously. They also take very seriously what the Prime Minister stands up and says at the Dispatch Box, where on more than one occasion he has spoken about reducing the impact of low-price alcohol in supermarkets. One assumes, therefore, that he is given policy advice from the Department of Health or the Home Office prior to coming to the Dispatch Box for Prime Minister’s questions. Perhaps the Minister will be willing to make that policy evidence public for the rest of us to look at so that we understand why the Prime Minister is taking that line.

[Mr Browne]

We have published large amounts of evidence. As I said, we have had consultations on licensing regulations for local authorities, the late-night levy that has been introduced for local councils, and early-morning restriction orders. People are focusing on minimum unit price, but in our consultations we are also focusing on multi-buy promotions, licensing conditions, and the regulations—red tape, as I put it—that are affecting businesses. We are having this discussion in the House of Commons precisely because the Government have taken a leading role on this issue and have given it a profile that it was not previously given.

[Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)]

My local authority, Cheshire East council, strongly supports MUP. It has calculated that in that one local authority area alone the cost to the public of alcohol harm is some £190 million across the NHS, local government, the criminal justice system, and loss to business. MUP is one of a number of tools, but if we extrapolate that figure across the country is it not clear that if it is not introduced the cost to the public will be far higher over time than a few extra pence on alcoholic drinks?

[Mr Browne]

My hon. Friend makes the case for a minimum unit price but, as I have said, it is not as straightforward as she implies. There are practical considerations. There are reasons to be concerned about people on moderate incomes who wish to buy alcohol at an affordable price and do not understand why the Government would wish to set an artificial floor that would make it more expensive for them to buy alcohol. There is a perfectly respectable libertarian argument that individuals should be free to decide how they live their lives without a prescriptive Government attending to the details for them.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

Contrary to the settled view of the House, the Minister has read the responses to the consultation. Will he remind the House which health organisations have responded and what they have said about the cost to the national health service of cheap alcohol?

[Mr Browne]

Large numbers of health organisations have responded. The Under-Secretary of State for Health, the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), who I am delighted to have here with me, has said that she will write to the hon. Gentleman specifically on who those organisations are, and I am sure that she will do that very speedily.

[Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)]

Does the Minister agree that the best way to deal with antisocial behaviour on the streets by drunks is strong action by the police and perhaps a few hours in the cells rather than piling extra tax on to responsible drinkers who are very often on low incomes?

[Mr Browne]

My hon. Friend makes an interesting point. In quite a lot of countries elsewhere in Europe, the price of alcohol is lower than it is here, or certainly low, and yet they do not have anything like the number of problems that we have in relation to antisocial behaviour linked to alcohol consumption. There is a role for the police, but there is a wider debate within society about how we consume alcohol and how we behave after we have consumed alcohol.

[Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)]

The Minister will be aware that the European Commission has formally objected to the Scottish Government’s proposals on minimum unit pricing. What discussions has he had with the Commission and what reassurances has he received from it that his proposals will comply with European Union law?

[Mr Browne]

The hon. Lady makes a reasonable point. The Scottish Executive wish to introduce a minimum unit price of 50p and we were consulting on a price of 45p in this part of the United Kingdom. There is a legal challenge and we have to be mindful of the legal context if we choose to go down the path of introducing a minimum unit price.

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

Will the results of the consultation be published so that people can see the strength of the arguments both for and against the proposal in different parts of the country? Did the shadow Home Secretary, the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), or any other shadow Home Affairs Minister respond to the consultation, and if so what was their response?

[Mr Browne]

First, yes the results will be published. I have given some of the arguments an airing this morning and they will be provided in much greater detail. Secondly, I am afraid to say that despite the millions of pounds of Short money paid by taxpayers in my constituency and that of my hon. Friend to fund the activities of the Labour party, it seems to be lamentably short of the requisite standard of a proper Opposition.

[Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab)]

The Government ditched the proposed ban on the sale of alcohol below the cost of duty and VAT. Will they bring that back?

[Mr Browne]

We have had a consultation and we are reflecting on its results. We will make further announcements to those we have already made on alcohol strategy when we are in a position to do so.

Apprenticeships

Thursday 14th March 2013 Commons Chamber

11:16

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills (Matthew Hancock)]

With permission, Mr Speaker, I would like to make a statement about the future of apprenticeships.

Apprenticeships are back. Having existed in this country for more than six centuries, apprenticeships have through the ages provided the vehicle for skills and trades to be handed down the generations. At their best, they are an engine for social mobility and for giving employers and apprentices alike the skills they need to prosper. Although apprenticeships declined in the previous century, this century they have started to recover and grow, both in number—500,000 started last year, compared with the approximately 350,000 who started at university—and in stature, becoming a career choice in their own right.

Although that growth in numbers should be welcomed on both sides of the House—it is also good to be able to welcome the shadow Skills Minister, the hon. Member for Blackpool South (Mr Marsden), to his place—I think we will all agree that we must increase the quality of apprenticeships and make them relevant to today’s economy. We will not delay progress on making such improvements. Steps have already been taken to require every apprenticeship to be a real job and to mandate that, in most cases, an apprenticeship lasts a minimum of a year, and today we are announcing that we will further strengthen the provision of English and maths in apprenticeships. The employer ownership of skills pilot is putting power in the hands of employers to design qualifications and deliver apprenticeships in line with employer needs, and we are extending apprenticeships to higher levels of skills and into new professions, such as insurance, accountancy and the law.

We need, however, to go further. Last year we published a report by the former dragon from “Dragons’ Den”, Doug Richard, on the future of apprenticeships. I pay tribute to his work in producing that report, which called on us to put employers in the driving seat, giving them more control over qualification design, training delivery and funding. It called for quality and standards to be raised across the programme and for a focus on outcomes, stripping out bureaucratic processes. It also called for more open data, more awareness and more employer engagement in schools.

We wholeheartedly agree with the principles and vision of the Richard report, which, along with the response that we are publishing today, will be placed in the Library, providing a programme of reform that will be challenging for all involved in apprenticeships—providers, the Government, employers and apprentices themselves—which is absolutely right. Rigour and responsiveness will be our guiding principles. The Richard reforms build on the best of this historic programme, but will once again attune it to the needs of the modern workplace.

Specifically, we agree that apprenticeships should be targeted at those in new jobs or roles to train them for that role as a springboard for their future careers; that employers should be at the centre of designing apprenticeship standards and qualifications; and that assessment should be largely at the end, more independent and graded. We agree on the need to raise further the standards in English and maths, and that employers should be given greater control of funding to ensure that it is directed where it adds most value. Costs will be shared between apprentices, their employers and the Government. We agree that more open and accessible data are vital. We agree on the importance of improving awareness and engagement with schools, so much so that the Prime Minister has set out that it should become the new norm for young people to go to university or into an apprenticeship.

This is a widespread package of reforms, on which we will consult widely and which we will implement sensitively. The consultation will stay open until 22 May. We will carefully consider the responses over the summer. People should be in no doubt that apprenticeships are a force for good. These reforms will help Britain in the global race by supporting unambiguously those who want to work hard and get on in life. They will help give all people the chance to fulfil their potential. I commend this statement to the House.

11:21

[Mr Gordon Marsden (Blackpool South) (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for his statement.

In one respect at least, the Government have dealt comprehensively with the Richard review: they have comprehensively fudged or ignored most of his main recommendations. It reminds me of the old saying from the Clerk in the Table Office that one will always get a reply from Ministers, but not always an answer. I have been through the 10 specific recommendations that Doug Richard laid out in his report on apprenticeships. With the exception of the redefinition of the apprenticeship outcomes and the other matters that the Minister mentioned in that respect, all of which we agree with and welcome, I would give his answers two and a half out of 10 or possibly three. [Interruption.] Government Members should compare forensically the recommendations and what the Government have said.

It would be interesting to hear what Mr Richard makes of the Government’s response to his report. Ministers and their advisers were clearly too nervous to obtain or include any comment from him in their press release. They also completely omitted any reference to Mr Richard’s central recommendation on incentives for employers to invest in apprenticeship training.

There is a depressing pattern in the Government’s responses to new ideas for apprenticeships. They pat their advisers on the head, but ignore the main conclusions of the reviews that they have set up. They ignored Jason Holt’s advice last year on boosting apprenticeships with small and medium-sized enterprises, such as the need for impartial face-to-face careers guidance for young people. They voted here on Tuesday against the proposal of the Business, Innovation and Skills Committee to use public procurement to boost apprenticeship numbers. Now they have sidelined the key recommendation of Doug Richard’s report, again ignoring the need for a proper programme of advice and work experience in schools.

I want to ask the Minister the following questions. One of the central points of Doug Richard’s report was the need to incentivise employers’ funding. Does the Minister see the recommendations on funding made by Doug Richard and Lord Heseltine as complementary? What view does Mr Richard take of that?

The Government response says only that they are moving towards improving the attainment of level 2 functional maths and English. Why have they ignored Richard’s key recommendation that people should have level 2 functional maths and English before the completion of an apprenticeship? Will the Minister do anything to introduce work-based learning to support entry to employment and apprenticeships, as recommended by Mr Richard? Will he confirm that the Secretary of State for Education will provide dedicated funding for face-to-face guidance in schools to deliver improved awareness of apprenticeships among students and parents, as Mr Richard recommended? What measures will he take to support smaller businesses engaging with the apprenticeship system, and what is the timetable for that? How will the Government implement the new definition of apprenticeships as recommended by Mr Richard, and when will they do that? Finally, why have they ignored Doug Richard’s proposal to make some off-site learning mandatory?

The Government have ignored the key point with which Mr Richard began his recommendations. He said:

“It is important to stress that the different elements must be taken collectively: they are interlinked and the system will only make sense and be deliverable if all the elements are adopted as a whole”.

The Skills Minister has failed completely in his second day job at the Department for Education to reanimate the dead hand of the Secretary of State, whose fingers are all over this report on the failures of apprenticeships, failure to deliver work experience, and failure to make changes to guidance. No wonder employers and business organisations are wringing their hands over the Minister’s failure to take up fresh proposals from Holt and Richard. It is just as well that the Labour party has set up a skills taskforce that will come forward with fresh ideas to deliver the step changes that employers need, and address the crucial issues raised by Holt and Richard, which the Government have shown they are ignoring.

[Matthew Hancock]

I do not know whether the shadow Minister turned up after I answered several of the questions that he has asked. Given that the Government commissioned and welcomed this report, and put in place a consultation on the implementation of the principles within, I do not know how they can be ducking that report. If a report is published, and the Government publish a response setting out how they will take forward its recommendations, that is very much taking on that report and its recommendations, not the contrary.

On the specific questions, I do not know whether the hon. Gentleman was present when I said that employers will be given greater control of funding to ensure that it is directed where it most adds value, and that costs will be shared. That is the answer to his specific question on funding. We agree with the principles, we are working and consulting on the options, and we will come forward with a full implementation plan in the autumn.

On information, advice and guidance, it is, of course, vital that schools give independent and impartial careers advice, and we are implementing that statutory duty. On small businesses, the whole point behind making the funding co-funded by and flowing through businesses, is to make it easier for businesses to access that funding. The brutal fact is that at the moment, more than half of apprenticeships are in small and medium-sized businesses.

The biggest disappointment is that on a set of reforms that will improve and strengthen the quality of apprenticeships, there was not one positive word from the Opposition Front-Bench spokesman. I have no doubt that we will hear positive words from elsewhere in the Chamber about the value of apprenticeships and how they help everybody reach their potential, but there was not a single positive word from the Opposition.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Speaker]

Order. May I explain to the House that a very large number of right hon. and hon. Members will be seeking to catch my eye in the debate on NHS accountability, and I am keen to accommodate that Back Bench-inspired debate? We have business questions before that so I am not inclined to run this statement at length.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

Flexibility is key for any work-related apprenticeship policy. Does the Minister agree that apprenticeships should not just be for school leavers? They need to be for the mum going back to work after having looked after her children, and for the man in middle age seeking a new career. Will the Government address this issue?

[Matthew Hancock]

Yes, I agree strongly. For instance, soldiers leaving the armed forces often go through apprenticeships to retrain for civvy street. That is another important element.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Minister knows that I passionately believe in getting the apprenticeship question right, and we should use the Richard review to do that on an all-party basis. There is currently consultation and I hope that Opposition Front Benchers and Government Ministers will work together. At the moment, only 10% of employers take on an apprentice. If theirs costs are not met and if they do not receive an incentive, I do not think it will happen, but I support trying to achieve an all-party success.

[Matthew Hancock]

I agree. I enjoy working with the hon. Gentleman and I hope that those on the Opposition Front Bench come to their senses.

[John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)]

Large employers, such as QinetiQ in my constituency, do very well, with large numbers of apprentices every year going into jobs after four years. My concerns relate to smaller employers. Will the Minister reassure the House that the needs and relatively limited capacity of small employers to engage with changes to apprenticeships can be accommodated in his plans?

[Matthew Hancock]

With a background in small business, I understand entirely. These plans will make it easier for small businesses to access apprenticeships.

[Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)]

In my constituency and across Oldham, 8.6% of young people are not in education, employment or training, and we have a lower than average number of 16-to-18 year olds in apprenticeships. As I understand it, the Minister is saying that there will be no response until autumn on the recommendations for engaging with employers. Can we therefore assume that, four years into this Parliament, the Government will have done little or nothing on apprenticeships?

[Matthew Hancock]

No, I said that actions are already being taken forward and I have announced some direct actions today. We are introducing traineeships in the autumn, which aim to ensure that young people have the skills they need to get a job and to hold down a job. That is part of our response too.

[Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD)]

People out in the world know that under this coalition Government the number of apprenticeships has risen dramatically. The Minister and his predecessor have done a huge amount of work. In considering recommendations to widen participation, will he look at accessibility in rural areas for those considering apprenticeships further afield or in an industry not based in their area, to ensure that everybody has the chance of an apprenticeship?

[Matthew Hancock]

Yes, I will.

[Ms Gisela Stuart (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab)]

I served an apprenticeship, albeit in Germany. The success of apprenticeships in Germany is the result of the fact that they are not seen as an alternative for those who cannot go to university, but are seen as an alternative route to achieve the same aim. Will the Minister continue to stress that apprenticeships can be an alternative route, and that this is not just a question of either/or?

[Matthew Hancock]

I stress that as much as I possibly can, and the hon. Lady is well placed to make the case too.

[Nigel Adams (Selby and Ainsty) (Con)]

In my constituency, more than 1,000 apprentices made a start in the past full year. Could we use this opportunity to thank the providers, colleges and employers that have made such a brilliant effort to give young people a great start in life?

[Matthew Hancock]

National apprenticeship week is all about celebrating exactly the sort of people my hon. Friend mentions.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

Following on from the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Edgbaston (Ms Stuart), will the Minister reiterate the importance of ensuring proper awareness of apprenticeships in schools and beyond as an alternative? That is a recommendation of the Richard review, and it is vital if we are to see the take-up of apprenticeships and for them to be taken seriously.

[Matthew Hancock]

The new norm set out by the Prime Minister—that young people go into either an apprenticeship or university—is an important step. On the implementation of schools’ statutory duties, Ofsted has said that that will be a priority in how it assesses schools, and that is important. Some schools do brilliantly, but I want all of them to come up to scratch.

[Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)]

Businesses in Worcester are already benefiting from the Government’s incentives to small and medium-sized enterprises to take on apprenticeships, and that is why we have seen the number of them more than double, with more than 1,000 taking them up. Can I urge the Minister to keep on pressing on both the quantity and the quality of apprenticeships?

[Matthew Hancock]

Yes, that point is very well made. The fact that more than half of apprenticeships are in SMEs is a good sign, but we need to ensure that as we increase quality, we also increase the numbers as much as possible. The fact that apprenticeships are becoming more rigorous will help to encourage employers to get involved.

[Julie Elliott (Sunderland Central) (Lab)]

With the demise of the professional careers service, how will the Minister ensure that the advice given to our young people in schools will be sufficient and that it will cover issues of diversity in making career choices?

[Matthew Hancock]

That is an important point. The statutory duty on schools is critical in ensuring that that happens, but there is more to it than that. From this summer, for the first time, the destination of people leaving school to go not only to university but into an apprenticeship has been published. With the statutory duty and the Ofsted inspection on the back of them, those destination data will help to push things in the right direction.

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

The number of apprenticeships in Skipton and Ripon, and in Yorkshire more generally, has doubled. Will my hon. Friend confirm that under this Government, work will be the focus of apprenticeships, in contrast to the classroom-based programme apprenticeships that we saw under the previous Administration?

[Matthew Hancock]

Indeed; we have already shut down the programme apprenticeship route, as it offered an apprenticeship without a job. One of the central arguments in the Richard report, with which I entirely agree, is that apprenticeships are about getting the skills required to do a skilled job. Of course that is absolutely critical.

[Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)]

I am also one of the few former apprentices in the House. Will the Minister confirm that the average length of stay on an apprenticeship programme has significantly decreased? Does he agree that short-term programmes and courses for adults are not proper apprenticeships, and that they simply dilute and discredit the apprenticeship brand?

[Matthew Hancock]

Yes. The quality of apprenticeships is vital, and that includes the length of an apprenticeship. We have introduced a minimum duration for apprenticeships, and we insist that, in all but exceptional cases, they should last for the minimum of a year. That is in the report, but it is an area in which we have already taken action.

[Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)]

Apprenticeships have been one of the Government’s big success stories so far. In Chester, the number of apprenticeships has more than doubled, with 900 people starting one last year. When I talk to companies and businesses, however, I find that micro-businesses find it difficult to take on apprentices. Does the Minister have a view on how we can encourage companies with only one or two employees to take on an apprentice?

[Matthew Hancock]

We are making it as simple as possible. I studied at West Cheshire college in my hon. Friend’s constituency. Colleges and other providers can help small businesses to bust some of the bureaucracy, but I want to bust some of the bureaucracy myself to make it easier.

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

Increasing skill levels will be among the critical long-term policies for turning around the slump in living standards, which is worsening under this Government. Will the Minister learn more from the German approach, in which larger companies receive stronger encouragement and have greater obligations to take on apprentices than is the case in the UK?

[Matthew Hancock]

I certainly agree that ensuring that everyone reaches their potential through apprenticeships and increased skills is vital. An apprenticeship involves learning and doing a job, and encouraging companies to come to the table is vital if we are to make this happen. Through the reforms and the principles set out in the Richard report, to which we have responded today, that is exactly the direction we want to take.

[David Rutley (Macclesfield) (Con)]

On Tuesday, I was fortunate enough to go to the annual Macclesfield apprenticeship fair, where I saw a wide range of organisations offering apprenticeships. They included McCann Manchester, Siemens and Cheshire East council, as well as the local hospital. What steps is my hon. Friend taking to increase the number of quality apprenticeships in the widest possible range of industry sectors?

[Matthew Hancock]

The whole report is about doing just that.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

Small businesses in Hull tell me that the flat rate that they are paid to take on an apprentice does not take into account the particular needs of small businesses, and that it is the same rate as that paid to larger businesses. Will the Minister support the introduction of a differential rate for small businesses taking on apprentices?

[Matthew Hancock]

We have introduced a grant of £1,500 for small businesses taking on their first apprentices, precisely to help them with the bureaucracy that the hon. Lady mentioned, and I would encourage her to tell the small businesses that she talks to that it is available. The take-up has been good, but we need to ensure that everyone who could benefit from it knows about it.

[Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that employers will welcome the greater control of funding so that they can direct resources to where they need them most?

[Matthew Hancock]

I hope that they will. I welcome my hon. Friend as the apprenticeship ambassador in Parliament, as was announced today. His role is to ensure that we expand apprenticeships, listening to both parliamentarians and businesses as we take these reforms forward.

[Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)]

The Minister will be aware of the stark gender segregation in STEM apprenticeships. Will he tell us what steps he is going to take to achieve an increase?

[Matthew Hancock]

Yes, we have specific pilots to deal with this issue. The employer ownership pilot involves a consortium led by Rolls-Royce, BAE and others and it is aimed at increasing the number of women engaged in engineering. The best argument in favour comes from apprentices themselves. The apprentice of the year is a female engineer who works on the Typhoon Eurofighter. She is an inspiration, and it is the arguments that she puts—better than me—that will help to encourage girls and young women to look to engineering as an exciting career prospect.

[Barry Gardiner (Brent North) (Lab)]

Can the Minister find it within himself to praise the General, Municipal and Boilermakers Union for its initiative with British Gas? Will he acknowledge that it is precisely the green skills apprenticeships that they are piloting together that will be the engine of growth?

[Matthew Hancock]

The engine of growth can come from all sectors in our economy. Apprenticeships have support across the piece. For instance, I find myself agreeing with Dave Prentis of Unison on the importance of employer ownership, so this is an area in respect of which many different parts of society and economy—including, no doubt, parts of the GMB—can work together to ensure that skill provision is made available.

[Pamela Nash (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)]

Following the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull North (Diana Johnson), when I speak to small businesses, they tell me not just that they do not have enough money to take on apprentices—[Interruption.] I will continue when the Minister is listening. The small businesses that I speak to tell me that not only do they not have enough financial support to take on apprentices but that the money they receive covers only a small percentage of the actual costs. Will the Government’s proposals tackle this?

[Matthew Hancock]

Of course, the extra support we have given to small businesses is important, but the crucial point is this: apprenticeships are good for the whole economy; they are good for tackling skills shortages; they are good for apprentices, but they are good for employers, too. So it is right for all three—the Government, apprentices and employers—to pay their part towards the costs of apprenticeships because all three benefit from them. That is one reason why this is such a successful scheme.

Business of the House

Thursday 14th March 2013 Commons Chamber

11:42

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew Lansley)]

With permission, I should like to make a statement about the business for next week.

Monday 18 March—I expect my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to make a statement following the European Council. This will be followed by the conclusion of remaining stages of the Crime and Courts Bill [Lords]. Colleagues will wish to be aware that the business is expected to go beyond the moment of interruption.

Tuesday 19 March—Proceedings on the Jobseekers (Back to Work Schemes) Bill, followed by motion relating to section 4A(2) of the Parliamentary Standards Act 2009.

Wednesday 20 March—My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer will open his Budget statement.

Thursday 21 March—Continuation of the Budget debate.

Friday 22 March—Continuation of the Budget debate.

The provisional business for the following week will include:

Monday 25 March—Conclusion of the Budget debate.

Tuesday 26 March—Debate on a motion relating to flood insurance, followed by pre-recess Adjournment debate, the format of which has been specified by the Backbench Business Committee.

I should also like to inform the House that the business in Westminster Hall for 21 and 25 March will be:

Thursday 21 March—Debate relating to the post-2015 development agenda.

Monday 25 March—Debate relating to the e-petition on preventable cardiac deaths arising from sudden adult death syndrome.

[Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)]

I thank the Leader of the House for finally announcing the business for next week. I have been following this morning’s chaotic events largely on Twitter, and it is a deplorable state of affairs. It would be helpful to everyone in the House if the Government could get their act together and learn how to organise their business in a more timely fashion.

Ninety-nine days have passed since the publication of the Leveson report, and a decision must be made. Now is the time to act for the many victims of press intrusion whom the report identified. We wanted a cross-party agreement, and we are disappointed that this morning the Prime Minister pulled the plug on the all-party talks. Even at this late stage, we urge him to think again. When he launched the inquiry, he looked victims in the eye and told them that he would fight for them. It is a sad indictment that he now fights for the people who hurt them.

Will the Leader of the House guarantee that the Government will allow time for a debate and vote on any Leveson proposals in the Crime and Courts Bill on Monday? When can we expect to see the supplementary timetabling motion which was promised by Ministers yesterday, to facilitate the debate and the votes that must accompany it?

I am beginning to think that my prediction that the Government will perform a U-turn every 29 days is going off the rails. The last one arrived three days early, and this week we have seen two more—and that is before next week’s Budget. Despite the urgent question, we still have no idea what the Government’s policy on a minimum alcohol price of 45p actually is. Will the Leader of the House tell us? Perhaps he will also let us know his personal view.

The Government have amended the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill in the other place to abolish the Agricultural Wages Board, which provides vital protection for rural communities. According to the Government’s own impact assessment, the abolition will take £260 million out of rural workers’ pockets and transfer it directly to their employers. The Bill is due to complete its Lords stages on 20 March. Will the Leader of the House tell me when it will return to the House of Commons?

We were all startled by the vivid imagery from the Liberal Democrat conference last week. The party’s president said that his own members were

“like cockroaches after a nuclear war”.

The Deputy Prime Minister described his coalition partners as

“like a kind of broken shopping trolley.”

Mr. Speaker, I present you with our Government: a broken shopping trolley full of cockroaches, veering wildly to the right.

Over the last week, the bookies have been raking it in because an important leadership election has been taking place. The front-runners have been jockeying for position, factions have been forming, there has been whispering in the corridors, people have been excited to see who will emerge as their next leader—and that was just in the Vatican. Meanwhile, here at Westminster, the Prime Minister is searching for divine inspiration. The Home Secretary has openly staked her claim, only to be silenced by the Education Secretary, who harbours his own ambitions. Perhaps the Prime Minister’s Aussie spin doctor should turn his attention to the Cabinet, and stop harassing Tory Back Benchers about their tweeting habits.

The Budget is just under a week away. Everyone is wondering what the part-time Chancellor’s encore will be after last year’s omnishambles, and I have to say that the omens are not good. The Prime Minister has suffered an unprecedented ticking off from the Office for Budget Responsibility for obscuring the facts on cuts, the Business Secretary is openly campaigning for Labour’s plan B, and the Chancellor lost £1 billion in the 4G auction and has failed his own triple A test.

The Chancellor’s plan is not working. People are suffering while our economy flatlines, and he is busy handing out tax cuts to millionaires. Perhaps he should listen to the 81% of his own constituents who think that he should spend less time in the Tory bunker and more time in his day job. The Guardian quotes a senior Tory as saying:

“The Conservative party has two moods. Panic and complacency.”

Will the Leader of the House tell us which mood he thinks his party is in?

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to the shadow Leader of the House for her response.

On press conduct and the implementation of the Leveson report, the hon. Lady will recall that yesterday the Minister of State, Home Department, my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne), made it clear in response to the debate on the programme motion that if the talks conclude, either with or without agreement, we will bring forward a supplementary programme motion to ensure that issues relating to press conduct are debated on the second day of consideration of the Crime and Courts Bill. That is what we are doing.

The Prime Minister announced this morning that further all-party discussions have this morning concluded without agreement. For the benefit of the House I will read out what he has said:

“I believe that what we have on the table is a system that will deliver public confidence and justice for the victims. It’s a system that would introduce the toughest press regulation this country has seen and a system that will defend press freedom in our country.”

The Government will now publish the royal charter again so people can see how it would deliver the principles that Lord Justice Leveson set out. Through the consideration of the Crime and Courts Bill on Monday, the minimal legislative changes required to put in place a system of exemplary damages will be tabled. As the Prime Minister made clear this morning, other parties can also table amendments, although we hope, of course, that they will see that the minimal legislative changes supporting a royal charter will deliver what is required to balance a tough system of press regulation and the need for freedom of the press. The shadow Leader of the House asked me about the tabling of amendments and motions. As the House is not sitting tomorrow, they will have to be tabled today.

I hope my comments have given Members an indication of the shape of the debate. My purpose is to facilitate the debate of the House. As the Prime Minister made clear this morning, the debate on Monday should resolve this issue and I hope the way the debate is structured—we can discuss that through the usual channels—will facilitate the House reaching a conclusion. The hon. Lady asked about other Bills, including the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill. I hope these steps will enable us not only to achieve the implementation of the Leveson report recommendations, but to enable other important legislation to be concluded in a timely fashion.

Now—[Interruption.] I think we can be quick on other things. On minimum alcohol pricing, the Minister of State at the Home Office, my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton Deane, has just responded to an urgent question, and my personal view is the same as his. [Interruption.] I agree with the Government, no problem.

The Government’s decision to abolish the Agricultural Wages Board is an important deregulatory measure. The minimum wage will remain in place.

The hon. Lady mentioned my hon. Friend the Member for Westmorland and Lonsdale (Tim Farron) referring to Liberal Democrats as cockroaches. We can squash that right now. We all know that Liberal Democrats have a capacity to fly away, as their symbols demonstrate, but we will leave it at that.

The hon. Lady talked about next Wednesday’s Budget statement. I cannot pre-empt what the Chancellor will say, but there are a number of things the House recognises and the hon. Lady and her party ought to recognise: that we were left a dreadful financial mess; that we have cut the deficit by a quarter; that we have seen private sector employment rise by over 1 million; and, as was discussed when my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Skills delivered his statement to the House, 1 million people are going into apprenticeships as part of our creating sustainable growth for the future. We are making benefits fairer and we are making work pay. We have taken 2.2 million people out of income tax all together as a consequence of the increase in personal allowances. All this, and so much more, means the Chancellor will be delivering the Budget statement against a background of a record of achievement thus far and can set out proposals that will enable us to secure deficit reduction and our growth prospects for the future.

[Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)]

May we have a debate in Government time on the important steps this Government are taking to improve life for older people: not only reforms to the state pension but auto-enrolment and the pensions triple lock? All are such good news that we never get time to debate them on the Floor of the House.

[Mr Lansley]

My hon. Friend makes a good point well. I confess that I cannot immediately identify when such a debate might be possible, but much can be discussed during the Budget debate. I noted, as many other Members will have done, remarks this morning from the House of Lords Committee underestimating what this Government have done to anticipate and create a more sustainable structure to support people in old age. We have made public sector pensions more affordable and sustainable, and auto-enrolment could give an additional 11 million people access to their own pensions in retirement. The draft Pensions Bill will make the state pension system simpler and more affordable, and I would never neglect to mention the many measures in the draft Care and Support Bill that will provide support for vulnerable and frail people in old age.

[Mr Ben Bradshaw (Exeter) (Lab)]

The Prime Minister has pulled the plug on the all-party Leveson talks today. He now expects this House to implement his version of press regulation, which would have no teeth and would not be independent. That would be a gross betrayal of the victims and a craven surrender to the perpetrators. Should we not have a full statement from the Prime Minister or the Culture Secretary, so that Members know exactly what they are voting for on Monday?

[Mr Lansley]

Members will know the structure of the debate on Monday, and what is important is that, as was made clear yesterday and has been confirmed today, they will have the opportunity to have that debate. I took the trouble to repeat what the Prime Minister said at the Dispatch Box, so that Members are aware of what is now planned.

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

I thank the Leader of the House for his statement. It is extremely regrettable that the all-party talks on Leveson have broken down, and extremely regrettable that the Prime Minister is no longer willing to take part in them. I am clear on behalf of my colleagues here—and, I think, the official Opposition and other parties—that we do not think a simple charter, without seeking to implement Leveson as recommended, will be at all sufficient. Will the Leader of the House elaborate on Monday’s business? Given that it is likely that other amendments will be tabled—they are actively being constructed at this moment—can he make sure there is sufficient time to debate not just a Conservative amendment but other amendments? That means we will not have a short day at all, because some of us are determined to get it right and not dishonour our pledge made after the Leveson report.

[Mr Lansley]

My right hon. Friend will have been listening carefully to what I said in my statement. I freely acknowledge that we do not always satisfy everybody in terms of the time made available, but I did say in my statement that colleagues must expect business on Monday to go beyond the moment of interruption, and I fear that will have to be the case. That will allow a debate, and without dwelling on precisely how we achieve that, my and my colleagues’ purpose, through the usual channels, will be to ensure that this House can have the debate—including the votes—that will enable it to resolve the issue, I hope very positively, so that all of us who are concerned to ensure that the Leveson report is implemented in principle see that happen. The Prime Minister set out some very clear proposals that will enable that to happen. I do not suggest for one moment that we will vote on those and not on other amendments, if others are presented. But the House should be given that opportunity.

[David Wright (Telford) (Lab)]

May we have a full ministerial statement on the bedroom tax, which affects thousands of people in Telford? A number of them will be single people looking for one-bedroom accommodation. When I checked, two such properties were available on the social housing register, and only 175 have been available all year. How are those thousands of people supposed to downsize? This is about them paying more money.

[Mr Lansley]

The House and the hon. Gentleman will have heard my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State explain repeatedly that the spare room subsidy is about bringing fairness into the system. It comes in the context of a £23 billion housing benefit bill and circumstances where a large number of people in this country are living in overcrowded accommodation while many are receiving a subsidy in under-occupied property. Although the Labour party, over many years, was perfectly happy to see exactly the same principles applied to those in receipt of housing benefit in privately rented properties, Labour Members do not see that it is perfectly fair to carry that analogy forward into social housing.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

Leveson is a hugely important issue. Will the Leader of the House clarify whether the supplementary programme motion has yet been laid, so that we can table amendments? Will he allow Monday’s debate to go until any hour—I urge him to do so—as that would solve the problem of people worrying about having time to scrutinise it?

[Mr Lansley]

I make just two points to my hon. Friend. As I hope I made clear, motions and amendments relating to proceedings on the Crime and Courts Bill on Monday need to be tabled today, and they will be laid in due course today. In effect, he is seeking to have no programme motion, with the time to be “on debate”, but I am afraid that I cannot offer that. It is important that the Bill is protected, although we will ensure that time is provided for the debate on press conduct matters.

[Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)]

On 1 November 2012, the House debated air passenger duty, unanimously agreeing a motion calling for a “comprehensive” review of that punitive tax: the UK’s is the highest of any country in Europe and for many it is having devastating consequences for tourism, families going on holiday and so on. What progress has been made in response to the motion passed unanimously in this House?

[Mr Lansley]

I can just tell the right hon. Gentleman that these matters are under active consideration by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor and others in relation to the Budget statement.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

In February 2011, the Department of Health announced that it would introduce a statutory register of herbalists by the end of 2012. It is now 2013 and the Department has not even published any draft legislation. May we have a statement from the appropriate Health Minister about the interference from the European Commission in preventing Her Majesty’s Government from introducing a new law of this land?

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. As he will know, I am aware of this issue, having been the responsible Secretary of State when that written ministerial statement was made. I do know—this was true before I moved from the Department of Health last September—that we were encountering complex issues relating to the preparation of this legislation. The interface with EU legislation is one such issue, but it is not the only one. We need to get the legislation right, and I know that my colleagues in the Department are working on it and will, of course, make an announcement as soon as they can.

[Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab)]

Now that we can all see that the Prime Minister is in the pocket of Murdoch, may we have the Prime Minister making a statement explaining to the families, including the Dowlers, why he has gone back on the pledges he made?

[Mr Lansley]

I do not accept for a minute what the hon. Gentleman says. I think that what the Prime Minister has described this morning as the proposals that will be brought forward for discussion in our proceedings on the Crime and Courts Bill next Monday is the toughest structure of press regulation this country has seen. I think it is entirely consistent with the Leveson principles, not least in the link with the Crime and Courts Bill and the introduction of a system of exemplary damages.

[David Tredinnick (Bosworth) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend might recall my raising at Prime Minister’s questions in November 2010 the situation in Parliament square, which I described as

“a no-go area surrounded by a campsite”.—[Official Report, 24 November 2010; Vol. 519, c. 257.]

Our right hon. Friend the Prime Minister’s response was that he wanted it “sorted out” as quickly as possible. Will the Leader of the House update the House on the situation and give us some indication of the costs of policing the demonstration?

[Mr Lansley]

I think that the House will, like me, be grateful to my hon. Friend for his assiduous work in raising this issue. Many Members of this House will take pleasure in celebrating the fact that Parliament square has now been returned to a state in which its splendour and the architectural setting surrounding it can be enjoyed by residents, workers and our many visitors to Westminster. He asked me about the cost to the taxpayer, but I regret to say that I do not know. However, I will draw his question, which he rightly raises, to the attention of the Mayor’s Office for Policing and Crime to see whether it might be able to respond to him about that cost, a matter for which it has been responsible.

[Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)]

May I reiterate the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Telford (David Wright) about the need for a clear statement on the bedroom tax policy? After all the U-turns, there still seems to be confusion about exactly how it is going to work. With 4,700 households affected in Hull and only 73 one and two-bedroom properties available, the Government need to be clear about how this policy is going to be implemented in practice.

[Mr Lansley]

Of course the hon. Lady can reiterate the point, but I will not detain the House by repeating the answer. I will simply say that the clarification that she and other hon. Members actively sought was provided in the written ministerial statement made by colleagues earlier this week.

[Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)]

More than 20,000 people in my constituency—nearly a quarter of the population—are pensioners. Please may we have a debate about how our country will fund the pensions of the future, both state and private, looking particularly at what help can be provided to help people make provision for their own futures so that they have a secure and dignified retirement?

[Mr Lansley]

That is an important point. The Budget may well afford an opportunity for some wide-ranging debates, of which pensions could be one part. The measures on auto-enrolment will support people in retirement. The draft Pensions Bill will give people a much simpler and more predictable basis on which to judge the state’s provision for retirement and what they may need to maintain the standard of living they are looking for. Overall, after years of failed experiments with stakeholder and other pensions, we are finally getting something that people can understand so that they can identify how they can meet their needs in old age.

[Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)]

May we have an urgent debate on the one thing that blighted the Olympic effort of which we are all very proud? That one thing was the behaviour of G4S. We now understand that it has done a deal with the London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games and Paralympic Games that is very generous, given its failure to deliver on its contract. At the same time, G4S is refusing to pay what is owed to the hard-working, smaller sub-contractors who worked on the Olympic site. This is a scandal; it will not go away, and G4S must know that Members of this House will not let the public forget it.

[Mr Lansley]

The hon. Gentleman has put that point on the record. He will know that the Home Affairs Select Committee have been pursuing this issue. I cannot promise him an urgent debate on this matter, but if he were in the House and caught the Speaker’s eye, Home Office questions on Monday 25 March might present a suitable opportunity for him to reiterate his point.

[Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)]

Welfare benefits exist to provide a safety net for people who are not able to work, or the weak and vulnerable, and also a hand-up for people seeking return to work. May we have a statement or a debate in Government time on ensuring that welfare benefits are contribution-based so that those people who paid in through national insurance and taxation receive those benefits, and those who have not paid in are assessed on their personal need?

[Mr Lansley]

Only a few weeks ago we were celebrating the anniversary of the Beveridge report, and it is important to recognise that the contributory principle was at the heart of that report. I cannot immediately offer my hon. Friend a debate. I am resting at the moment on the wide-ranging character of the Budget debates to allow many such issues to be raised. The House will recognise the importance of the benefit system being fair. It is important to distinguish between the contributory principle for many and the circumstances of those who are so vulnerable and dependent that we are talking about something that does not rely on contributions but is based on need.

In the reforms that we are putting through now, we are focusing on making work pay and ensuring that those who can work do work, but also on making sure that resources are focused, and on increasing resources for those who are most in need through disability.

[Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)]

So that we can understand the context of the debate on Leveson on Monday, can the Leader of the House tell us when the Prime Minister informed the Deputy Prime Minister that he was unilaterally collapsing the talks?

[Mr Lansley]

I was not present at the discussions this morning between the leaders of the three parties, but I imagine that as the Prime Minister made a statement at the conclusion of those talks, it that must have been communicated in those talks.

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

Medway council in my constituency proposes to invest half of its unallocated reserve in a new development fund to support future regeneration and development. Will the Leader of the House consider granting a debate on how local authorities can use their reserves to support local communities?

[Mr Lansley]

I welcome what Medway council is proposing. I know that my hon. Friend will share my support for what my hon. Friends at the Department for Communities and Local Government are doing through their “50 ways to save” publication, which shows how councils can make significant savings. Many councils have reserves, quite prudently, and how they use those reserves, including for investment purposes or, in the case of my council, to work together with others to create an investment bank to support business projects in the county, can show initiative and enterprise.

[Steve Rotheram (Liverpool, Walton) (Lab)]

Following my point of order yesterday on the online petition for the Shrewsbury 24, will the Leader of the House make a statement on the Government’s online petition system? Specifically, will he ensure that the many thousands of people who have allegedly failed to fill out the online form properly are contacted electronically and notified that their signatures have not been registered?

[Mr Lansley]

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for that question. I wrote to him yesterday following his point of order, although I entirely understand that he might not have received the letter yet. I will not detain the House with all that is in that letter, but I hope that it answers the questions he quite properly raised yesterday and today. If it does not, I would be glad to try to clarify further. This has demonstrated to me that there is no problem as such with the online petition system; there are just difficulties in some cases with duplications, addresses and things of that kind.

[John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)]

My constituent Harald Hamley has recently contacted me to express his support for the Defamation Bill. I am sure that many across the country are anxious to see it become law to reduce the possibility of vexatious libel claims and to uphold freedom of expression. When does the Leader of the House expect the Defamation Bill to return to this House for further consideration?

[Mr Lansley]

The answer to my hon. Friend is that I will make a statement on the further proceedings on the Defamation Bill in due course. It might help him and Mr Hamley if I say that as the Prime Minister has made perfectly clear this morning, we will resolve issues relating to the implementation of Leveson principles in our debate on Monday. As a consequence, I hope it will be possible for us to proceed with other legislation, including the Defamation Bill, in a timely way.

[Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)]

Will the Leader of the House schedule a debate on the full scale of the collapse in living standards affecting our constituents which has been presided over by this Government? Has he seen the new research by Landman Economics for the TUC, published yesterday, which finds that the cumulative impact of Government policy on wages, tax and benefits is a drop in Scottish household income of £28.63 a week, or £1,488 a year? Is that not a truly dreadful record for this Government?

[Mr Lansley]

Mr Speaker, you would imagine when listening to the hon. Gentleman that May 2010 was year zero and that nothing happened beforehand. At the heart of all this is the 6.2% reduction in the gross domestic product of this country as a consequence of the bust under a Government who said that there would be no boom and bust. It was the biggest bust we have ever seen and we were left with the biggest deficit we had ever seen. It is not possible to pay down debt, to cut the deficit and to cut consumer debt without having a negative impact on people’s living standards.

[Henry Smith (Crawley) (Con)]

Late on Monday night and in the early hours of Tuesday morning, hundreds of motorists were stranded by the freezing weather conditions on the A23 and M23 in west Sussex. I pay tribute to Sussex police and many of my constituents, who came to the assistance of those who were stranded. May we have a statement from the Transport Secretary about Highways Agency winter preparedness?

[Mr Lansley]

I echo my hon. Friend’s praise for the emergency services and for his constituents—I was taken with the reports that the Red Cross, for example, was reaching out to people and giving them support. I know that they worked together around the clock in partnership with the Highways Agency and I, too, pay tribute to them. The extreme weather, which was probably experienced to a greater extent in much of northern Europe, had a heavy impact on the south of this country—

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

And Scotland.

[Mr Lansley]

And, indeed, on other parts of the country. I note the request for a statement from my hon. Friend the Member for Crawley (Henry Smith). I do not anticipate a statement from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State at the moment, but I can assure my hon. Friend that we constantly learn from what happens and apply those lessons in ensuring that we minimise disruption to the public and business during severe weather.

[Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)]

David Green, director of Civitas, said today:

“Labour is showing the way to the present Government, which has shown no imagination in tackling the problems facing SMEs and has ignored too many good ideas.”

Given the failure of the Government’s Project Merlin and other such programmes, may we have a debate on the only growth plan—that is, Labour’s growth plan—including a British investment bank, regionalised banking and business lending?

[Mr Lansley]

I know David Green, of course, and I suspect that he would not subscribe to the Labour party’s view of how these things should be tackled. None the less, we are determined to support small and medium-sized enterprises. We will push to ensure that small businesses can get access to the finance they need, as we did through Project Merlin, and we are supporting that through the funding for lending scheme and the finance guarantees. The tax measures that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has put in place, including an exceptional tenfold increase in investment allowances, will support that. If the hon. Gentleman were at the conference being held by my old friends at the British Chambers of Commerce over the road today—I know that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills will be there—he would hear their ideas. I know that many of them support what the Government are doing, including not only the deficit reduction but our infrastructure support and the business bank being set up by my right hon. Friend the Business Secretary.

[Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)]

I know that my right hon. Friend has enjoyed many visits to the welcoming, historic and vibrant city of Chester. May we have a debate that will allow us to champion Chester as a stand-out candidate for city of culture in 2017?

[Mr Lansley]

I am delighted to hear my hon. Friend be the first in this House to make a bid in business questions for city of culture status on behalf of his constituents. He is right to say that I have enjoyed visits to Chester many times and I look forward to more. Chester has a fantastic history and a vibrant artistic and cultural life, both now and in the future. I look forward to those visits, and perhaps we will share some of that entertainment when we are there.

[Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (Lab/Co-op)]

The Leader of the House might not be aware that next Tuesday marks the bicentenary of the birth of Dr David Livingstone, who was born in Blantyre in my constituency. Members will be aware of his work in Africa and he is, of course, buried in Westminster Abbey. There will be a series of events, including in Blantyre, culminating in a service in Westminster Abbey next week that we hope the President of Malawi, Joyce Banda, will attend. May we have a statement from the Secretary of State for International Development to update the House on the progress towards reintroducing foreign direct aid to Malawi to help in the progress that President Banda hopes to achieve in that country?

[Mr Lansley]

I am glad the hon. Gentleman has had an opportunity to draw attention to that important anniversary and to the remarkable contribution of Dr David Livingstone as an explorer and someone who, as a consequence of that, was an inspiration to many in this country and beyond. I will talk to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for International Development. I am pretty sure she will be meeting the President of Malawi in the course of her visit, and I will draw my right hon. Friend’s attention to the points that the hon. Gentleman raised in the House so that she can incorporate them in that discussion.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

For the penultimate question, I call Mr Docherty.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Further to the points raised by the shadow Leader of the House, my hon. Friend the Member for Wallasey (Ms Eagle), and the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes), will the Leader of the House now confirm for the record that adequate time will be provided on Monday to debate not only the Prime Minister’s proposals but those of the Opposition?

[Mr Lansley]

I hope that what I said was clear and helpful to the House. It is our intention to secure adequate time and to do so without prejudice to the discussion of other very important matters on the second day of the Crime and Courts Bill. That will necessitate the House sitting beyond the moment of interruption on Monday. I do not know precisely what other amendments there may be in relation to press conduct or the Crime and Courts Bill, but I know that we will work with the Chair and through the usual channels to ensure that the House is able to have a full and decisive debate.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Last but certainly not least, I call Pete Wishart.

[Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)]

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Surely we will have a debate to mark the 10th anniversary of the invasion and the war in Iraq. Iraq remains our most damaging and appalling foreign policy adventure ever, with more than 100,000 dead and the region destabilised. I was in the House with the right hon. Gentleman when we listened to the nonsense and the lies from the Labour Government on the case for war. Surely we should revisit that next week.

[Mr Lansley]

I was in the House, as the hon. Gentleman recalls, at the time of the debate leading up to the invasion of Iraq—[Interruption.]—and did not vote for it. The shadow Leader of the House is wrong in her intervention from a sedentary position. The hon. Member for Perth and North Perthshire (Pete Wishart) will be aware that a number of hon. Members have sought such a debate from the Backbench Business Committee. From the Government’s point of view, that is a matter for the Committee, but we are only too aware of the prospect of the Chilcot review coming forward at some point, and the importance of being able to debate and understand all the circumstances leading up to that decision in the light of the Chilcot review when it is published.

Points of Order

Thursday 14th March 2013 Commons Chamber

12:22

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. The Leader of the House referred to the supplementary programme motion. I have checked with the Table Office and the Public Bill Office, and no such supplementary programme motion has yet been tabled. If Members seek to amend that supplementary programme motion, they have to do so before close of business today. Could you advise, sir, how we can amend a motion that has not been laid?

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

It may be helpful for the Leader of the House to give us an answer to that question.

[The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr Andrew Lansley)]

It is just over four and a half hours until the close of business. We will strive to ensure that the supplementary programme motion is laid, with time thereafter for Members to seek to amend it, should they choose to do so.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

It may be helpful to the House to know that manuscript amendments are acceptable in an emergency, if need be.

[Mary Creagh (Wakefield) (Lab)]

At Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs questions last Thursday, I asked the Secretary of State why he, the Food Standards Agency and Sodexo had refused to name the company which supplied mince and burgers adulterated with horsemeat. The Secretary of State refused once again to name Sodexo’s meat supplier, thereby preventing other catering organisations from knowing whether their meat supplies were at risk, despite the fact that in every other horse adulteration case, the supplier has been immediately named. Yesterday evening Sodexo finally revealed its two suppliers as Brakes, which supplied the burgers, and Vestey Foods, which supplied frozen halal mince and frozen mince that were adulterated with horse. The chairman of Vestey Foods is hereditary peer Baron Sam Vestey, who is also Master of the Queen’s Horse. Have you had any indication, Mr Deputy Speaker, whether DEFRA Ministers intend to come to this place to explain to Members why they refused to name that meat supplier? Are they not putting their friends in high places above the interests of the consumer?

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

I can certainly help and normally would take shorter notice that the hon. Lady was asking a question of the Chair. It is not a point for the Chair. As we both know, an urgent question was tabled. Normally I would not refer to that when a decision has already been taken. If nothing else, the hon. Lady’s question is on the record and I am sure that Ministers will have taken it on board, in the same way as we had a point of order yesterday which came up with the right answer in the end. If nothing else, the question will have been noted.



Bill Presented

Jobseekers (Back to Work Schemes) Bill

Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)

Secretary Iain Duncan Smith, supported by the Prime Minister, the Deputy Prime Minister, Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer, Danny Alexander, Secretary Chris Grayling, Oliver Letwin and Mr Mark Hoban, presented a Bill to make provision about the effect of certain provisions relating to participation in a scheme designed to assist persons to obtain employment and about notices relating to participation in such a scheme.

Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 149) with explanatory notes (Bill 149-EN).

Backbench Business

Thursday 14th March 2013 Commons Chamber

Justice Committee Report: Youth Justice

Thursday 14th March 2013 Commons Chamber

12:25

[Sir Alan Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed) (LD)]

I beg to move,

That this House has considered the matter of the publication of the Seventh Report of the Justice Committee, on Youth Justice, HC 339.

The Committee is having a busy week. We are publishing another report this week about the Government’s plan to abolish the Administrative Justice and Tribunals Council, but it is on the youth justice report that I shall concentrate today. As hon. Members know, I try to make a few points, then I take interventions. That is the only way in which hon. Members can take part in an exchange about the report, and we have 20 minutes in which to do it.

We conducted a wide-ranging inquiry to explore the targeting of resources, the use and effectiveness of available disposals, and the role of the youth justice system in diverting at-risk young people from offending. We took evidence from many witnesses. We made visits to Belfast and to young offenders institutions in Feltham and Wigan and in Denmark and Norway. I am very grateful to Committee colleagues and to the Committee staff for all their work on the report.

We found quite a lot to commend. The Youth Justice Board, youth offending teams and their partners have made great strides towards a more proportionate and effective response to youth offending that prioritises prevention. We welcome the fact that fewer young people are entering the criminal justice system. The numbers have been halved. We welcome the fact that, similarly, the numbers going into custody have been halved, although we are still high among the countries of Europe in the number of young people we have in custody.

That is not to say that we believe that minor offending is being or should be ignored; rather, we believe it should be dealt with differently. When diversion is done well, young people are less likely to go on to more serious and prolonged offending. We are particularly encouraged that agencies in many areas are using a restorative justice approach to resolve very minor offending. Bradford youth offending team, for example, established restorative justice clinics as an arrest diversion, and only 10% of young people attending the clinics were re-arrested.

[Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his work in leading our Select Committee on this subject. Is he concerned, as I am, that we found the practice of restorative justice to be a postcode lottery around the country? Although we recommended that Ofsted may have a role to play when looking at care homes, we need a sense of urgency from the Government to advise on strategy in areas that are not delivering restorative justice. Does my right hon. Friend think we will have the impetus to achieve that?

[Sir Alan Beith]

I agree with that comment. The phrase “postcode lottery” is one I do not like in areas where there is innovation because what happens is that some places show what good work can be done, and we want to spread best practice as quickly as possible, but I agree with my hon. Friend’s conclusion that the Government and we as a Committee should put as much weight as we can behind spreading the knowledge, experience and skills involved in restorative justice.

On our visit to Denmark and Norway we saw the benefit of intensive multi-systemic therapy, with a concentrated range of skills dealing with young people who are on the fringes of the criminal justice system and likely to become involved in it.

[Rehman Chishti (Gillingham and Rainham) (Con)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend on his leadership of the Committee. He talks about different strategies for dealing with youth. Does he agree that we should welcome the strategy proposed by the Government to deal with troubled families? There are about 200 such families in the country and, by giving them access to education, skills and accommodation, we will get them out of the criminal justice system and give them a long-term future away from that as good citizens.

[Sir Alan Beith]

That is an extremely valuable initiative, and it relates to the point I will make later about early intervention, but as a Committee we think a lot more will need to be done in this area.

[Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)]

I thank the Chairman, the Committee and the staff for the work they have done in producing what is a weighty tome. Further to that point, we say in the report, based on the evidence that the Royal College of Speech and Language Therapists gave us, that 10% of children in the general population have speech, communication and language difficulties, but the proportion of young offenders with such difficulties is 65% or just over. I am sure he remembers that we heard in evidence how this over-representation is part of a compounding risk model that begins at an early age. Does he therefore agree that, as well as ensuring that our youth justice system has access to speech and language therapists to help young people when they get into trouble and are in the system, we would be smart as a country to widen access—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Sir Alan was very generous and I allowed you to intervene, Mr Brine, but you cannot make a speech. You are meant to be making an intervention on Sir Alan, because he wants to reply and we need to get on to other business.

[Sir Alan Beith]

I think I get my hon. Friend’s point. He is absolutely right, and he and the Committee have regularly reminded us of that problem. There are so many young people in the criminal justice system who might not be there if they had not been so lacking in communication and language skills. We have to put significant effort into dealing with that part of the problem.

There will always be a need to detain a small number of young people who pose a risk of serious harm to the public, but youth custody is expensive. The Youth Justice Board spends £246 million on the secure estate, which is 65% of its total spending. Three quarters of those who leave youth custody reoffend, as opposed to a much smaller, but still too large, proportion of young offenders generally. That indicates that a lot of resource is going into a problem that we could better have prevented at an earlier stage.

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for a very good report. Does he agree that two strong messages arising from his Committee’s conclusions are, first, that we still send too many young people into custody as opposed to dealing with them outside and, secondly, that we are still hopeless at providing for those who come out, particularly in accommodation, which would give them the security to prevent reoffending?

[Sir Alan Beith]

Indeed, that is a point we make quite firmly: that the accommodation needs of people leaving custody are often not met adequately. If they are dumped in bed and breakfast without adequate support, that is no help to them.

That applies particularly to looked-after children—that is, children who have been in care. Frankly, we were shocked by the evidence we received showing that vulnerable children are effectively being abandoned by children’s and social services. Public authorities have a duty to ensure that looked-after children are not at greater risk of being drawn into the criminal justice system than other children simply because they lack normal family homes. Poor behaviour that would be dealt with in the family should not be an express route into the criminal justice system. We heard one example of police being called to a children’s home to investigate broken crockery. The relevant authorities must also continue to provide support to looked-after children when they get into the criminal justice system and, even more, when they leave it. We were concerned that the relevant authorities often seem to end their relationship of providing support once looked-after children enter the criminal justice system, particularly if they go into custody, and we are talking about a group of very vulnerable children.

[Andy McDonald (Middlesbrough) (Lab)]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for his excellent chairmanship of the Committee. Does he agree that one of the key messages to come out of our work is about encouraging local authorities and prosecutors to deal with trivial offences involving looked-after children not in a way that causes them to enter the criminal justice system, but in the same way as ordinary families would? While I have his attention, may I also commend the report for its identification of the issue of brain injury among those in custody? The report sets out that although 10% of the population may sustain a brain injury, the incidence among those in custody is much higher, at 50% to 60%. Neuropsychological assessments of those in custody would be an excellent measure, and I congratulate him on flagging it up.

[Sir Alan Beith]

What a telling statistic the hon. Gentleman has brought out—indeed, he brought it to the attention of the Committee, too. Although we are glad that a new system of assessment, ASSET-plus—assessing semantic skills through everyday themes—has been approved for use by the Government, we think it will take more than that to identify children who are vulnerable to that and a number of other health-related reasons. As for his point about treating looked-after children more as they would be treated in a family, if restorative justice skills are available and can be deployed and if training is provided, that can help to deal with difficult situations without putting looked-after children into the criminal justice system.

[Mr Elfyn Llwyd (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)]

I, too, commend the right hon. Gentleman for his chairmanship of the Committee. I am pleased with our recommendation that we should have legislation to ensure that the judiciary in criminal courts can refer under-18s to a single family court. That is important, bearing in mind his point about people entering the criminal justice system. Does he agree that we can learn a great deal in this context from the Scottish experience?

[Sir Alan Beith]

The right hon. Gentleman makes an important point. The Scottish system of children’s reporters and children’s panels has been proven over many years. We still have some lessons to learn from it in England and Wales.

Looking more widely at sentencing, we recommend a threshold to enshrine in legislation the principle that only the most serious and prolific young offenders should be placed in custody. We recommend that the custody budget should be devolved to a more local level, so that a local decision can be made about investing in effective alternatives to custody. We want to build confidence in community sentences by giving magistrates and judges more feedback on the outcomes of their sentencing decisions. We also want to take more action to reduce the number of people who breach the terms of their community sentences and address the problem that there is a large number of young black men in custody, far beyond their proportion in the population.

[Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)]

What was the Committee’s view on the fact that if we send only prolific offenders to prison, they will clearly have done a lot of crime before they get there? What consideration was given to the short, sharp shock treatment as a way of dealing with people right at the beginning?

[Sir Alan Beith]

The idea that we can sort out the problems of a young person who is committing serial, prolific crimes through a process that does not take much time is just a mistake. It takes time to address these problems. We have looked, for example, at the Willow unit at Hindley and a whole series of ways of trying to turn round the lives of young people. I am afraid that the short, sharp shock is an illusion. There is no proven way to deal with prolific young offenders other than by giving them a lot of attention over a significant period.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for chairing the Committee through the fascinating experience of undertaking this youth justice inquiry. Will he comment on the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act 1974 and say at what point a young person who has committed a fairly minor offence or a more major one would have it written off? We do not want a society in which misdemeanours undertaken by young people, for all kinds of reasons of poverty, naivety or whatever else, follow them for the rest of their lives, damaging their career prospects and us as a society.

[Sir Alan Beith]

The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, which he has made in the Committee. The Committee recommended that, for example, minor offences that were the subject of cautions should disappear from the register at the age of 18, to give youngsters a chance to get a job and get started in life. I also commend employers who, in the knowledge that people have past criminal convictions, take them on and give them a fresh start, often with success.

[Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)]

The Opposition very much welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s report. I hope we can have an early debate on it, because, certainly judging from the interventions we have heard, there is a need for one. How does he square his Committee’s view that we need to move away from young offender institutions to smaller, more specialised units with what seems to be the Secretary of State’s view—that we should go the other way and roll the smaller units into bigger YOIs?

[Sir Alan Beith]

In fact, we have been closing young offender institutions over the years because the number in custody is now much smaller. The Committee will continue to press its view that most of the work that can be done successfully with young offenders has to be done in small environments, where it is possible to devote sufficient attention to their problems.

There are a number of key things that I do not want to miss out. One is that the Government produced their own, “Transforming Youth Custody” document just as we were concluding our inquiry, so we did not have the chance to work on it in detail, although I have to say that there is not a lot of detail in it. One thing that puzzles us is the Secretary of State’s idea of creating youth colleges to deal with young offenders, because they are actually there, on average, for only 79 days. We fully support and applaud his interest in, and commitment to, sorting out the education of young offenders in custody, but the concept of the colleges does not fit well with the rapid churn of young offenders. In many cases it is important that we get them back into the education system. We have therefore recommended that schools and colleges could be incentivised to take young people back into education after they have completed their sentence, whether it is a custodial or community one.

The Committee had something to say about deaths in custody. It is unacceptable that so many vulnerable young people continue to die in the custody of the state. We await the Minister’s view on whether to set up an independent inquiry and will return to the issue when we have heard what conclusion the Government have reached.

We have many other detailed recommendations that I do not have time to cover today, but the message I want to leave with the House is that we must be prepared to make radical changes in the way we deal with young offenders if we are to stop them becoming the prolific criminal offenders of the future, which is often what they have the potential to become.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)]

I congratulate the Chair of the Committee on the report. Does he agree that one of the most powerful pieces of evidence in support of his emphasis on getting the transition from custody to the community right is that which was given by the chief inspector of prisons, who said that

“the thing that unlocks everything else is accommodation. It does not mean that if you have settled accommodation everything else will turn out fine. It means that if you do not have that, nothing else will work”?

[Sir Alan Beith]

Absolutely. Accommodation in that context often requires support as well; it is not merely bed and breakfast and goodbye. There has to be some way of ensuring that an offender reintegrates into society, or indeed integrates into society for the first time, because they might have had an institutionalised existence prior to that, which is true of many looked-after children.

The second part of the message I want to leave with the House is that we need to ensure that new generations of children do not embark on crime. In order to achieve that, as was mentioned earlier, we must develop early intervention. As with adult prisoners, so much of the Ministry of Justice budget is necessarily committed to custody and to prison by policies that have been pursued over many years, yet the most important work of preventing people from getting into crime in the first place is deprived of money.

The Committee’s broad longer-term view is that we want to see resources not being needed to put people into custody or expensive sentencing processes because money has been spent dealing with troubled families and very young children beginning to show signs of later criminal behaviour—addressing that could prevent them from getting involved in crime in future. I am grateful to my Committee colleagues for the work they have done. We will continue to keep a close eye on Government policy in this area. We are glad to have had a good response to a number of our proposals, but a lot more needs to be done.

Question put and agreed to.

Accountability and Transparency in the NHS

Thursday 14th March 2013 Commons Chamber

[Relevant documents: The oral evidence taken before the Health Committee on 12 February and 5 March 2013, on Report of the Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust Public Inquiry, HC 982-i and -ii.]

12:43

[Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con)]

I beg to move,

That this House believes that in the wake of the Francis Report it is clear that accountability and transparency are of paramount importance to patient safety and trust in the NHS; and further believes that across the NHS individuals found to have breached those principles should face the appropriate consequences.

I would first like to thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting the debate; I realise that it did not have much time left to allocate in the Session and so am particularly grateful to its members for giving the House the opportunity to debate this timely and important issue. I would also like to thank all the Members who supported the motion, particularly my hon. Friends the Members for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay), for Bracknell (Dr Lee), for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) and for Southport (John Pugh) and the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey). I must also thank all those who have contacted me, including the Patients First group. I am sorry if we are unable in the time available to do justice to all the information we have been given, but rest assured that this is the beginning of the scrutiny, not the end.

This debate is neither about playing party politics, nor about only the future of one man, David Nicholson; it is about transparency, and about a deadly cover-up in our NHS and how we can ensure that never happens again. As one concerned former nurse wrote to me:

“Please don’t let me read those meaningless words, Lessons Have Been Learned”.

It sometimes seems that politicians can dodge taking responsibility so long as they say quickly enough that “lessons have been learned”, but learning lessons is not the same as simply uttering a phrase. The truth must be revealed, and consequences faced, if accountability and transparency are to be anything more than just words.

Let me make it clear that refusing to play party politics is not the same as letting people evade responsibility and that statesmanship is not the same as letting people off the hook. We owe it to those outside this Chamber. We owe it first and foremost to those patients who were, in some instances, killed in our hospitals, and we owe it to their grieving families, for whom no amount of politicians saying that “lessons have been learned” can bring back their mum, dad, sister, brother, child or friend.

After patients and their families, we also owe it to those dedicated doctors and nurses who were struggling to raise the alarm against a system that systematically suppressed their concerns. Many of them retired early in protest at what they were being asked to do, and some of them tried whistleblowing and were met not with thanks from the authorities, but intimidation and gagging. We will hear about some of that later.

I must congratulate the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Health on their appointment of Don Berwick to ensure that the basic requirement of “Do no harm” is embedded in health care. Don Berwick, an adviser to President Obama, is an internationally renowned authority on health care. The Institute for Healthcare Improvement, which he co-founded and chaired for 21 years, is a world-leading centre of medical improvements based on proven success. I am delighted that the Prime Minister has put him right at the heart of improving our health care system.

The tragedy, however, is that Don Berwick’s wisdom and recommendations are not new; they have been delivered before. They were delivered to the previous Government in no uncertain terms back in 2008, when David Nicholson was chief executive of the NHS. Instead of implementing them urgently, the previous Government were uncomfortable with what they revealed about their NHS, so they decided to suppress those truths. They suppressed a report by Don Berwick and his institute along with two other damning reports by international experts—RAND and Joint Commission International—that contained burning recommendations to be implemented with all urgency.

[Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)]

If the hon. Lady turns to page 1,281 of volume 2 of the Francis report, she will see that, far from the reports being suppressed, every one of them was seen by Robert Francis. He states:

“As part of his work leading the working group, Sir Liam”—

Sir Liam Donaldson, the former chief medical officer—

“commissioned reports from three highly respected US-based organisations”.

Francis concludes that section by stating:

“Indeed it is clear that the NSR”—

the next stage review, the Darzi review—

“sought to address many of the concerns raised in these reports.”

[Charlotte Leslie]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. Before the hon. Lady responds—[Interruption.] I am sorry, but does the Opposition Whip have something to say?

[Lyn Brown (West Ham) (Lab)]

No.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Thank goodness for that.

We need short and concise interventions, because many Members wish to speak and I do not want to have to reduce the time limit further, but that is what will happen if we are not careful.

[Charlotte Leslie]

I congratulate the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) on seeking to defend his Government’s record. I will address his point fully later in my speech.

Don Berwick’s report was commissioned by Ministers, led by Lord Darzi and with the support of David Nicholson, to celebrate the 60th anniversary of the NHS. It states:

“The NHS has developed a widespread culture more of fear and compliance… It’s not uncommon for managers and clinicians to hit the target and miss the point”.

It highlighted the inadequacy of quality-control mechanisms in the NHS, stating that the priorities that are emphasised by these assessments are

“seen as being motivated by political rather than health concerns”.

It also highlighted the anger felt by many conscientious medics at Government changes to their employment and at being pressurised to put targets ahead of patients:

“The GP and consultant contracts are de-professionalising... Far too many managers and policy leaders in the NHS are incompetent, unethical, or worse.”

The report warns that

“this… must be alleviated if improvement is to move forward more rapidly over the next five to ten years.”

But those warnings were ignored, and we know that the improvements never happened. The report’s conclusion on a decade of health care reform is that

“the sort of aim implied by Lord Darzi’s vision…is not likely to be realised by the 1998-2008 methods.”

Don Berwick’s report was not alone; let me reveal what the other two reports said. They referred to

“the pervasive culture of fear in the NHS and certain elements of the Department for Health”

and stated:

“The Department of Health’s current quality oversight mechanisms have certain significant flaws”.

Perhaps the most damning indictment of all is that the politicians are responsible:

“This culture appears to be embedded in and expanded upon by the new regulatory legislation now in the House of Commons.”

Instead of being acted on with urgency, this was all buried. We know of the existence of Don Berwick’s report and the other reports only because a medic was so concerned that Berwick’s warnings and solutions had been buried that he tipped off a think-tank, Policy Exchange, which had to use a freedom of information request to bring them to public light in 2010, two years later. They were not even available to the Health Committee.

Let us get one thing clear. The NHS is a huge, monolithic organisation with an exceptionally difficult and, some might say, almost impossible task. In reality, things will go wrong, sometimes very wrong. The crime is not so much that things were going wrong, bad as that is, but that instead of immediately focusing on tackling it, the priority was to cover up an awful truth that was uncomfortable for Ministers and chief executives. All too often, Dispatch Box appearance mattered more than the reality of patients’ lives, leaving whistleblowers and patient groups such as Julie Bailey’s, which was disgracefully dismissed by David Nicholson as a “lobby group”, screaming into a vacuum, often at great personal cost. The crime is the smothering of the truth which costs lives—the deadly silence.

What was the cost of suppressing Don Berwick’s urgent prescription for the NHS? The clinical director of NHS Scotland recently suggested that in following Don Berwick’s recommendations it has experienced an estimated 8,500 fewer deaths since January 2008. We may well ask what was the cost in lives for our NHS of the previous Government’s decision to bury the truth. Across the 14 trusts now being investigated as well as Mid Staffs, there were 2,800 excess deaths between the time that the reports by Don Berwick and others were presented to Ministers and their final revelation in 2010. If the previous Government had been urgently implementing Don Berwick’s recommendations for those five years, who knows how many of those lives might have been saved?

How was this allowed to happen? I have put in freedom of information requests asking what meetings took place to discuss the reports and who was present. Although David Nicholson was working closely with Lord Darzi on the next stage review, he said in front of the Health Committee that, incredibly, he

“knew nothing about the reports”.

That is the Select Committee, so we must take him at his word. The question that then remains is who did read and suppress these vital reports. Was it Ministers? Was it officials? If officials, how was this allowed to happen? If the Department of Health is to move away from a culture of cover-up, I expect a full and accurate response to my request to know who was responsible, and I ask the Secretary of State to assist me in that.

Former Labour Ministers will complacently say, as they already have, that these reports fed into Lord Darzi’s next stage review and informed the report, “High Quality Care For All”. I ask the House whether a document that starts with the then Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle, beamingly saying

“On its 60th anniversary the NHS is in good health”

reflects the content of the reports that we have just heard about. It certainly does not. Indeed, while the Department of Health claims that it “drew heavily” on the three reports in putting together “High Quality Care For All”, a source close to the authorship of those reports said that they found that claim to be “disingenuous at best”. David Flory, the deputy chief executive of the NHS, later told the Francis inquiry that he at least had some responsibility for what happened to the reports, as he had read them, but insisted that they were “caricatures”. That would help to explain why they were not acted on, but it makes the Department of Health’s insistence that it “drew heavily on them” rather odd.

Further indication that the documents were not acted on is the fact that they raise issues almost identical to those highlighted five years later in the Francis report. If Don Berwick’s warnings had been acted on five years ago, there would be no need to ask him to come back now to step in to sort things out and implement his recommendations.

[Alan Johnson]

I wonder if the hon. Lady is coming to the point that Francis, a QC, in the course of a two-year public inquiry that produced two volumes, looked at all these documents and said that many of the issues within them had obviously been acted on. During a two-year review, Francis drew completely the opposite conclusions to those that the hon. Lady is drawing.

[Charlotte Leslie]

I find various elements of the Francis report rather strange, not least that the current chief executive, David Nicholson, is minuted as dismissing the activities of Julie Bailey as merely “lobbying” as opposed to expressing widespread concern about patients, and that this minute was dismissed in evidence, with David Nicholson saying that he could not recall ever having said something like that and thought that he could not possibly have done so. The fact that we are asking Don Berwick back five years after he initially gave his recommendations to Labour Members speaks far louder than a few sentences in the Francis inquiry with which people may beg to differ. However, I will not be distracted by the right hon. Gentleman but go back to my speech.

I will now reveal how crucial mortality data, which Harvard university says should have triggered an “aggressive investigation”, was ignored, and, when it became too prevalent to ignore, was, like so many whistleblowers, discredited. David Nicholson said in response to the Health Committee that he did not know that the Dr Foster mortality data existed until he became chief executive of the NHS in 2006. He also said he did not know there was a problem with the mortality rate at Mid Staffs until 2009. Again, that is the Select Committee, so we must take him at his word. It is odd, however, as we know that David Nicholson attended a presentation in Birmingham in 2004 at which the Dr Foster ethics team gave a presentation on the real-time monitoring tools that it was using to show mortality alerts and the hospital standardised mortality rates.

There are also records of Dr Foster telephoning chief executives of health authorities in 2005 to tell them about the mortality alerts. David Nicholson is named on that list of those getting calls, as chief executive of Birmingham and The Black Country strategic health authority. Between 2005 and 2009, there were 8,000 log- ons to the Dr Foster site from members of staff at West Midlands SHA. We even have a press release from Dr Foster from as early as 2005 congratulating Walsall hospital in, yes, West Midlands SHA, for its improvement in relation to this very same mortality data. The Dr Foster data were published in the “Good Hospital Guide” from 2000 onwards and in national newspapers from 2001 onwards. It is therefore incredible that that was not known about by someone such as David Nicholson, or indeed Ministers and others.

By May 2007, however, people were aware of the data. The then chief executive of West Midlands SHA, Cynthia Bower—Birmingham and West Midlands SHAs play a strangely prominent role in this story—received alerts that there were issues with high mortality rates in the health authority. But instead of taking urgent action to find out what was going wrong, she commissioned the university of, yes, Birmingham to write a report to discredit the data, at a cost of £120,000 to the taxpayer. Stunningly, the British Medical Journal—the journal of the union, the British Medical Association—is on record as allowing the author of the Birmingham report to publish his findings in the BMJ four months before official publication to coincide with the publication of the Healthcare Commission report, in order to discredit the data. A fact little publicised by Ministers and chief executives is that the Birmingham report was severely flawed. Harvard later did a study and found that the data were so watertight that on receiving the alerts,

“it would have been completely irresponsible not to aggressively investigate further.”

Yet again, the reaction to bad news was to bury it, or expensively discredit it, rather than act.

This went all the way to Government. I have seen an internal briefing for the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw), then a Health Minister, in which officials brief him to stress that the mortality data were not known about until 2007. However, in that very same briefing it is revealed that they know this to be untrue, because they make specific reference to the data being published as far back as 2001 in the “Good Hospital Guide”.

This is only a drop in the ocean of a catalogue of attempts to cover up the awful truth. It is utterly wrong that no one should be held to account for such negligence in their duty to protect patients. The “Code of Conduct for NHS Managers” says that managers must

“make the care and safety of patients my first concern and act to protect them from risk”

and

“accept responsibility for my own work and the proper performance of the people I manage”.

If talk of accountability in this Chamber is to have any credibility at all, especially for those individuals who buried loved ones while Government, departmental and NHS individuals buried the truth, actions must have consequences. To scapegoat is not the same as ensuring that those responsible are held to fair account. Those who do not have a voice—the patients and their families—deserve accountability and more than just words.

Don Berwick is right. We must convert our anger over what has happened into action. That is what Julie Bailey did, without whom this debate and a push for a culture change in the NHS would probably not be happening. It is what my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State did this morning in banning gagging orders. Will he confirm whether that measure will be retrospective? I believe that this Government have secured a good base from which to put clinicians—not managers and politicians —at the heart of setting the priorities of our NHS.

[Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)]

Although I appreciate and endorse everything the hon. Lady has said about accountability and the managerial code of conduct, who does she think should enforce the code and ensure that it is being followed? Beyond the board and the chief executive, how will organisations be policed?

[Charlotte Leslie]

I believe that Francis is right: a regulatory organisation for managers is needed.

We must be brave. There must be a cultural clean-out and a new start, including a new head of the NHS Commissioning Board, who does not appoint a deputy who faces possible investigation for gagging whistleblowers —unless, of course, Dame Barbara Hakin deregisters from the General Medical Council beforehand—and who does not seem systematically to appoint those who had contact with West Midlands health authority or Birmingham, but has the trust and faith of doctors, nurses and patients, and epitomises this new era of transparency and accountability.

I believe that with Don Berwick’s help—albeit about five years later than it could have happened—we are now beginning to step in the right direction to ensure that never again can the NHS be too loved to be scrutinised or too holy to be questioned, and that this debate will go some way to breaking what has been, for more than a decade, a literally deadly silence.

13:02

[Andy Burnham (Leigh) (Lab)]

What happened at Stafford hospital was a betrayal of everything the NHS should stand for. We will face up to what went wrong and I will say more about that today. I repeat the apology to the families of people who suffered appalling abuse and neglect.

We must do more. People affected will be watching this debate and rightly wondering what it will achieve. They want to know what is going to change and when. The time has come for cross-party agreement on a way forward, and that is my hope for this debate. There must be more accountability and transparency, and that is why we support the motion.

We also support the Secretary of State’s ban on gagging clauses. It builds on statements made by the previous Government, which in turn were a response to previous scandals. That provides a crucial context for today’s debate.

In 1997 Labour inherited the job of responding to the Bristol heart scandal and the Harold Shipman murders. A series of major policy developments followed on patient safety, inspection and regulation. We passed the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998, protecting whistleblowers. We published data that had never before seen the light of day on survival rates from heart and stroke care, and 1999 saw the first ever independent regulation of hospitals and care standards.

In 2001 we established the National Patient Safety Agency, which has sadly since been abolished and, in 2006, on the back of the public inquiry by Dame Janet Smith, the General Medical Council and the Nursing and Midwifery Council were reformed to end the professional closed shop. The truth is, however, that well-meaning as those steps were, there were places where the underlying culture of the NHS did not change and that is an important lesson for us all. When we make statements in this place and pass policies, we assume that everything changes on the ground, but it does not.

The previous Government made similar statements to that made by the Secretary of State today, yet the use of agreements persisted. Why was that? The answer is that there is a culture in the NHS—a tendency to pull down the shutters and push people and complaints away when things go wrong—that is more ingrained than we might think.

[Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con)]

On the subject of pulling down the shutters, will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that the world-leading expert, Professor Sir Brian Jarman, wrote to him in March 2010 listing concerns about 25 hospitals with high mortality rates, and that both the right hon. Gentleman and the Care Quality Commission took no action?

[Andy Burnham]

No, I will not. I was copied into an e-mail by Professor Brian Jarman in mid-March 2010 and, having asked the CQC to investigate what he had said, I wrote back to him on 31 March 2010. That was literally my last duty as Secretary of State for Health after the general election was called. I was not able to respond further to inquiries. It is important to provide some balance to the hon. Gentleman’s comments.

Changing the culture in the NHS requires vigilance and persistence. As Robert Francis says, we have all been too remote from the front line.

The foundation trust reform was a serious attempt to end the top-down culture in the NHS, bringing more accountability and transparency. If we look back, however, we will see that, when the centre stood back, there were places where an unhealthy local culture became even more firmly established. In some trusts a national top-down style was replaced with a local top-down, bullying style, which can be even worse. I can remember the shock I felt on reading the first Francis report’s finding that, on receiving FT status, one of the first things that the Mid Staffs board did was to resolve to hold more meetings in private. That was an audacious breach of the spirit of the legislation passed by this House.

[Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

The shadow Secretary of State and I have been engaged on this issue for a very long time. Will he admit that it was totally unacceptable for him and his predecessor to refuse to have a public inquiry, which I demanded relentlessly, under the Inquiries Act 2005? Does he agree that it was wrong to give foundation trust status when it clearly should not have been given, and does he accept that I raised the issue of gagging orders and confidentiality in a health debate in 2009, not 2010?

[Andy Burnham]

Foundation trust status was not a matter for Ministers. It was a job for Monitor, so it has to answer that concern. The hon. Gentleman is right that we had many discussions about a public inquiry. He will remember that in July 2009, two months after I was appointed Secretary of State, I brought in Robert Francis QC to conduct an independent inquiry into what happened. I did not order a full public inquiry and I will explain the reason why later.

The difficult thing about the fact that the Mid Staffs board was holding more meetings in private was that we in this House had passed up our powers to intervene to stop it. That is another lesson we must learn: that the FT reform was naive in thinking that local autonomy would lead to improvement in all cases. In a national health service, there are areas where national direction is needed, and when things go wrong, there must be immediate powers of intervention, which, on my arrival in the Department in June 2009, I found I did not have. Foundation trust policy needs to be reviewed and adjusted to mitigate those dangers, including through a reconsideration of the power to de-authorise a failing foundation trust, which was recommended by the first Francis report, but repealed by the Health and Social Care Act 2012.

We also need to consider targets and how they are used. Targets helped to deliver the lowest waiting times in history and that must not be forgotten. However, in places, they reinforced negative management practices. In focusing on only part of the patient experience, there was not sufficient focus on the overall patient experience and the whole person—a particular problem when it comes to caring for very elderly people whose needs are a blur of the physical, mental and social.

Robert Francis is right to call for a fundamental rethink of the way in which we care for older people, and I have put his recommendations at the heart of Labour’s policy review. However, there are more immediate things that we can do and I will spend the rest of my time on five substantive points.

[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Andy Burnham]

I will make some progress.

The first point is about implementation. I would like to take this opportunity to thank Robert Francis for his work on this inquiry and the previous inquiry, which I commissioned. Robert Francis has taken the best part of three years to consider these matters in detail and has made 290 measured and proportionate recommendations. The people affected by these events should reasonably be able to expect that they will be implemented without delay.

I make a genuine offer today to the Secretary of State. If he brings forward proposals, he will have our support in speeding up implementation. I say that because I am becoming concerned about the timetable for the Government’s response. On 6 February, the Prime Minister told this House:

“We will study every one of the 290 recommendations in today’s report and we will respond in detail next month”.—[Official Report, 6 February 2013; Vol. 558, c. 281.]

Since then, the Government have commissioned a review of the recommendations, which is due to report in July. Although, like the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie), I have great respect for Don Berwick, I am surprised that the response to a long public inquiry is to set up another review. Is it still the Government’s intention to respond in detail this month? Although I welcome this debate, it is narrow in focus, so will the Secretary of State consider having a full day’s debate in Government time? Instead of more delays and reviews, we need action and a timetable for implementation. I would be grateful if the Secretary of State would respond to my offer today.

[Nicholas Soames (Mid Sussex) (Con)]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Andy Burnham]

No, I am making some progress.

The second area where more transparency and accountability is urgently needed is on staffing levels. If the Government are not yet able to commit to all the recommendations, I ask them to expedite their response to Robert Francis’s important recommendation on patient-staff ratios. The board of Mid Staffs embarked on a dangerous programme of staff cuts, and yet public and staff representatives had no outside guidance to challenge it. The chief nursing officer said yesterday that staffing should be a local decision. Surely the lesson of Mid Staffs is that there is a need for much clearer national standards and guidelines, as suggested by the Francis report?

This week, the Care Quality Commission reported that one in 10 hospitals in England and, worse, one in five learning disability and mental health services do not have adequate staffing levels. Surely that should ring alarm bells in the Department as it suggests that parts of the NHS are already forgetting the lessons of the recent past.

The third area on which we need a clear statement from the Government today is the accountability and transparency of all organisations providing NHS services. Under “any qualified provider”, the Government are persisting with their assumption that all NHS contracts should be open to full competitive tender. Despite a promise to rewrite the section 75 regulations that are being made under the 2012 Act, my reading of the rewritten regulations is that regulation 5 will not let doctors decide, but will in effect force clinical commissioning groups to open tender for contracts. That raises the prospect that there will be a significant increase in the coming years in the number of private and voluntary sector organisations providing NHS services.

If we believe in transparency and accountability, surely they have to apply across the board and on a level playing field. The problem is that private and voluntary sector organisations are not subject to the same strictures on freedom of information and whistleblowing. If action is not taken, we face the prospect of a serious reduction in transparency and accountability. Our attempts to find out new information under FOI requests on providers selected under AQP have hit the brick wall of “commercial confidentiality”. I say to the Secretary of State that that is not good enough. Accountability and transparency must always be paramount, as the motion says.

Will the Secretary of State require all providers of NHS services to adhere to FOI principles, and will he ensure that whistleblowers working in organisations that provide NHS services have the legal protections that he has announced today? I draw the attention of the Secretary of State to an early-day motion tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Easington (Grahame M. Morris) on this subject, which has attracted the support of 109 Members.

The fourth area on which the people of Stafford need openness and transparency is the future of their hospital. They will understandably be worried about the recent recommendation from Monitor that the trust should be placed into administration. People will recall, as I said to the hon. Member for Stone (Mr Cash) a moment ago, that I commissioned Robert Francis in July 2009 to conduct an independent inquiry. I know that many people, including the hon. Gentleman, wanted me to go further and order a full public inquiry, but I stopped short because I was concerned about the effect that that would have on the hospital and its viability.

All of us in this House now have a responsibility to help this hospital heal. After all that they have been through, it would be highly unfair to the people of Stafford if, at the end of all this, they were to lose their hospital or their A and E. They deserve a safe and sustainable hospital and I hope that the Secretary of State’s response to Monitor’s recommendation will map out a way to achieve that.

[Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con)]

rose—

[Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)]

rose—

[Andy Burnham]

I will give way one final time—to the hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley).

[Mr Burley]

I represent the other constituency that is served by Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust. Is the right hon. Gentleman implying that it is the holding of a public inquiry that has led to the threat to Stafford and Cannock Chase hospitals?

[Andy Burnham]

No, that is not what I am saying. I commissioned a second-stage—[Interruption.] The hon. Member for Cannock Chase should listen to the answer. I commissioned a second-stage review before the general election after Robert Francis delivered his first-stage review to me. I simply said that I took that judgment because I was worried that if there was ongoing uncertainty about the hospital for a long period, it may affect its viability. I have seen the statements from Monitor that there is a concern about the future viability of the hospital. I am making an appeal, on a cross-party basis, to say that all of us owe the people of Stafford a safe and sustainable hospital. I hope that the hon. Gentleman would agree with that sentiment.

My fifth and final point concerns staff morale.

[Mr Jenkin]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Andy Burnham]

No, I will not.

This is a difficult time in the NHS. The chief executive of the NHS has described it as a period of “maximum risk” as it struggles with the simultaneous challenges of efficiency and reorganisation. Morale in the NHS is low and one thing is clear: patient care will not improve if it stays like that.

The Secretary of State is right to speak out for patients when the NHS falls short, and he should always do that. However, statements should be fair and should recognise the good that the vast majority of staff do, day in, day out, and the pressure that they are under, which is not of their own making. That balance has been missing from recent Government statements. I say to the Secretary of State that hospitals and NHS staff are not coasting—far from it. They are working flat out, with some coping better than others with the pressure that they are under.

Politicians need to do more than just point out the failings of hospitals and NHS staff. We all need to support them with proper staffing levels on the wards. We all need to support them to speak out, wherever they work. We all need to stop the reorganisations that distract them from patient care. Those are the lessons of Stafford. Today, let us all resolve to face up to them.

13:18

[The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) on securing this important and timely debate.

We should start by remembering why we are having this debate. Truly shameful things happened at Stafford hospital. Patients were left unwashed for days, sometimes in sheets soiled with urine and excrement. Relatives had to take bed sheets home to wash them because the hospital would not. Patients with dementia went hungry with their meals sitting right in front of them, because no one realised or cared that they were unable to feed themselves. If we are to prevent that from happening again, accountability for what happened is vital. I will talk plainly about that, including about the role of Sir David Nicholson.

At the outset, let me reiterate that the NHS is one of our most cherished institutions. We can be proud that for 65 years it has ensured that everyone is entitled to treatment, regardless of their background or income. We can be proud of the excellent treatment and care that is the hallmark of most parts of the NHS. Most of all, we can be proud of the front-line doctors, nurses and health care assistants who look after 3 million people every week, with dedication, commitment and compassion.

If we love the NHS, we must be prepared to be honest about its failures, and to criticise me for doing so suggests, I am afraid, dangerous complacency from the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham). The tragedy of Mid Staffs shows how the desire to celebrate success got in the way of speaking out when things went wrong, and if we are to prevent such things from recurring, we must never allow our love of the NHS to stifle our determination to hold systems and individuals to account.

Where does that accountability lie? Sir David Nicholson has been the focus of much attention, and as a manager in the system that failed to spot and rectify the appalling cases at Mid Staffs, he bears some responsibility. As he said, the focus was lost, and he has apologised and been held to account by this House and many others. However, I do not believe that he bears total, or indeed personal, responsibility for what happened. He was at the strategic health authority for 10 months during the period in question, overseeing 50 hospitals at a time when his main responsibility was the merger of three SHAs into one. He consistently warned both Ministers and managers of the dangers of hitting the target and missing the point.

It is just not true that if there had been no David Nicholson at the SHA, there would have been no Mid Staffs; others bear far more direct responsibility and the Francis report tells us who. It makes it clear that the primary responsibility for what went wrong lies with the board of the trust. Astonishingly, members of that board seem to have melted into thin air, some moving to other jobs in the system, and others receiving generous payoffs.

[Mr Cash]

As my right hon. Friend knows, I do not agree with his assessment of Sir David Nicholson in this context. There was a systems failure that affected not only Staffordshire but the entire health service, and that lies very much at the heart of the problem. In my speech I will quote some statements made by Sir David at a conference a few months ago.

[Mr Hunt]

I obviously take on board what my hon. Friend says, but I want to move on to other aspects of the report.

[Nicholas Soames]

rose—

[Mr Hunt]

I shall give way on that point, and then I will make some progress.

[Nicholas Soames]

I am grateful to the Secretary of State. May I follow up on one point that he raised? He said that a number of those managers have disappeared or melted away to other jobs in the service. Does he agree that whatever else happened, there was a monumental failure of leadership at many levels, and that it is a failing of public services in this country—and the national health service in particular—that failing managers are too often recycled through the service to the great and constant cost of patient care?

[Mr Hunt]

I absolutely agree with my right hon. Friend. We will respond to the Francis report this month, as the Prime Minister has committed to do, and make plain measures to ensure that the situation cannot continue. My right hon. Friend is right to raise that point.

[Mr Jenkin]

rose—

[Mr Hunt]

I will make some progress and then I will take more interventions.

My response will detail how we intend to restore accountability to the boards of hospitals, and today I have removed the ability of any hospital to insert gagging clauses on patient safety in compromise agreements made with senior staff. My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West asked whether that will be retrospective, and I have written to all trusts to remind them of their responsibilities towards whistleblowers in respect of contracts and compromise agreements already signed. If we are to protect patients, we need an atmosphere of openness and transparency in the NHS—something to which the motion rightly refers.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Hunt]

I will make some progress and then I will take interventions from both sides of the House.

Sir David Nicholson told the Health Committee last week that in the NHS as a whole, patients were not the centre of the way the system operated. Which party was in power when that culture was allowed to operate? If Sir David has been held to account, so too must the Labour party be held to account. The Francis report rightly states that Ministers were not personally responsible for what happened at Mid Staffs, and I have no doubt that no Labour Minister would have condoned, knowingly allowed or wanted the events at Mid Staffs to happen. We also know from the report that the pursuit of targets at any cost was a central driver of what went wrong. As the report set out, above all Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust failed to tackle an “insidious negative culture” involving a tolerance of poor standards and a disengagement from managerial and leadership responsibilities. It went on:

“This failure was in part the consequence of allowing a focus on reaching national access targets,”.

Ministers, not civil servants, are ultimately responsible for the culture of the NHS, and it is clear that during that period a culture of neglect was allowed to take root in which the pursuit of targets at any cost compromised the quality of care that patients received, and made it harder for front-line staff to treat people with dignity and compassion.

[Andy Burnham]

I am listening carefully to the Secretary of State but it is not fair to people in the NHS for him to say that Stafford equals everywhere in the NHS, and that we can take one failing—a terrible failing, as I said in my speech—in a locality and apply it to the whole NHS. He must acknowledge that NHS staff did an incredible job to end the situation when people were spending months and years on waiting lists, and even dying on them.

[Mr Hunt]

I acknowledge the brilliant work done by NHS staff and, contrary to what the right hon. Gentleman says, I do that in every speech that I make on these matters. I will not, however, accept the complacency that says that problems at Stafford hospital were localised and happened only in one place. If we are to sort out those problems, we have a duty to root them out anywhere in the NHS that they occur.

The right hon. Gentleman talked about waiting times targets. Let us be clear: there is an important role for targets in a large organisation such as the NHS. Without the four-hour A and E target, or the 18-week elective waiting time target, access to NHS services would not have been transferred and I accept that the previous Government deserve credit for that. It was right to increase spending on the NHS, although it is curious that Labour now wants to cut the NHS budget. Labour did however—this is where Labour Members should listen rather than barrack—make three huge policy mistakes, and the right hon. Gentleman must accept that it is not simply a question of Government policy not being implemented in every corner of the NHS. Those three mistakes contributed to the culture of neglect that we are now dealing with.

The first mistake—a huge mistake—was that Labour failed to put in place safeguards to stop weak, inexperienced or bad managers pursuing not only bureaucratic targets but targets at any cost. That is exactly what happened at Mid Staffs, where patient safety and care were compromised in a blind rush to achieve foundation trust status. Secondly, Labour failed to set up proper, independent, peer-led inspections of hospital quality and safety that told the public how good and safe their local hospital was. Instead of a zero-harm attitude to patient safety, we have a culture of compliance and the bureaucratic morass that is the current Care Quality Commission. Thirdly, Labour failed to spot clear warnings when things went wrong. The Francis report lays out a timeline of 50 key warning signs between 2001 and 2009. Why did Ministers not act sooner? If those warnings were not being brought to the attention of Ministers, why did they not build a system in which they were? Instead, there was a climate in which NHS employees who spoke out about poor care were ignored, intimidated or bullied.

[Alan Johnson]

The Secretary of State is making an interesting speech and there is no way that the Labour party can escape criticism for what happened at Stafford. Does he accept, however, that before 2000 there was no independent regulation of the NHS and no standardised mortality ratios, complaints in hospitals stayed in the hospital and there was no recourse to any independent observance of those complaints, and A and E—a particular problem at Stafford—was a data-free zone?

[Mr Hunt]

I accept that progress was made in the collection of data and that the previous Government set up a star rating system. The problem, however, was what it measured. It did not measure the quality of patient care but basically focused on access targets. It was possible for a hospital to get a three-star rating by transforming its 18-week access targets, even at the expense of patient care.

[Stephen Barclay]

It is correct that improvements were made in the collation of data. In fact, the Dr Foster data were published in national newspapers from 2001, but what is remarkable is that they were not acted on. That is the central charge for Ministers. We were the world leader in the collation of mortality data. We had the data, but Ministers did nothing with them.

[Mr Hunt]

My hon. Friend speaks wisely. Hospitals display 1,400 different pieces of data, but the question is why nothing is done when the data give dangerous messages.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Hunt]

I will make some progress.

The question the right hon. Member for Leigh needs to answer is why he refused 81 separate requests to set up that public inquiry. He says that he did not want to distract the hospital from the essential task of making immediate improvements, but does he now accept that if he wants people to take his party seriously on NHS accountability he needs to apologise? That was a mistake. Until we have a proper apology—not just for what happened, but for the catastrophic policy mistakes made by his party—no one will believe that Labour would not make the same errors of judgment again. On the Government Benches, we are clear that accountability, dignity and respect for patients, particularly vulnerable, older people who are unable to speak out for themselves, must be embedded in every corner of the NHS.

We will announce measures to set up a proper, independent peer review inspection regime led by a new chief inspector of hospitals that will not simply look at targets, but make judgments on whether hospitals are putting patients first. We will set up a single failure regime, where the suspension of the board can be triggered by failures in care as well as failures in finance; a patient-centred culture, by making the friends and family test a key part of the hospital inspection regime; clinically led commissioning, so that key decisions are made by people who see patients in their own surgeries; and an overhaul of the hospital complaints procedures led by the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) and Professor Tricia Hart. We will do that with the minimum of upheaval. It is worth emphasising that Robert Francis himself says that the changes he calls for can largely be implemented within the system that has now been created by the new reforms.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Hunt]

I am going to make some progress.

This debate is about accountability. I have been doing this job for six months, and in nearly every exchange on the Floor of the House, the Opposition have avoided engaging in substance, preferring instead to make baseless allegations about the Government’s motives in respect of the NHS. I put it to the House that we have shown our commitment to the NHS time and again through a protection of the budget; a willingness to face up to big challenges, whether in clinical commissioning, the funding of social care or the need to ensure that care is prioritised throughout the system—

[Andy Burnham]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Mr Hunt]

No, the right hon. Gentleman needs to listen to my point. If Labour is truly committed to the NHS, it, too, has to show that it has learned. I did not hear that in his speech. Labour Members need to accept that they made some terrible policy mistakes that led to a culture of neglect. They must recognise that the party that claims to speak for the most vulnerable in society betrayed many vulnerable people, with tragic consequences. Only then will the public know that the lessons of Mid Staffs have been learnt—not just by the NHS, not just by civil servants, not just by Government, but by all sides of this House.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)]

Order. I remind Members that there is a seven-minute limit.

13:29

[Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)]

I welcome the opportunity to speak in this debate on our national health service. I resolutely believe that we should have an open and honest debate on how we can each contribute to restoring faith in the national health service, and that we should not play politics with the findings of the Francis report.

Increasingly, there is a deeply concerning creeping veil of secrecy across the public sector—local government, education or health. The application of greater accountability and transparency is the solution, ensuring that the interests of the public remain the singular and overriding No. 1 priority in public service delivery. As a society, we display a huge and deep faith that the NHS is intrinsically good, and we want unquestioningly to believe that at all times it is acting in our best interests. The findings of the Francis report, as they should, shake that faith and belief in the NHS to its very core. Francis should be commended for his report—an extensive and comprehensive forensic examination of Mid Staffs and the structure of the NHS.

I will be as brief as I can and focus on one tiny element: listening to patients, the people who pay for the NHS, and hearing what they are saying and acting on it. We do not need to keep on looking for a black cat in a dark room. Switch the light on! It is no good the Secretary of State simply repeating that we must listen to patients and their families. What assurance does he have that, until the next crisis, they are listening? In hearing after hearing of the Health Committee, senior people associated with the NHS trot out that the regulator is responsible and that the Care Quality Commission needs to deal with it. I never, ever thought I would feel sorry for the CQC, but, when everyone else ducks, it is supposed to catch the ball. We do not need to create another bureaucracy; we simply have to make work—really work—something we already have by giving it real teeth and enough resources to make it effective.

I agree with the comments of Dame Julie Mellor, the parliamentary and health service ombudsman, when she said that she hoped that the Francis report

“will trigger a debate that will support our view that good complaint handling should be at the heart of the NHS.”

From front-line experience, I believe that to be both true and essential. During my time as chair of Liverpool Women’s hospital, a standing agenda item at the public monthly board meetings was a summary of all complaints received that provided an overview—not in minute detail, but an overview—of each complaint and the outcome: upheld or not upheld. Most importantly, there was a column that stated what action was taken. Employing this system of regular review ensured that the board had oversight, asked questions, could spot trends, be assured that action was taken and demonstrate to patients and their families that they were being listened to.

[Nick de Bois]

Does the hon. Lady accept, notwithstanding the efforts made in the hospital she mentions, that when MPs take up complaints on behalf of constituents and try to get to the truth behind them, we are faced with tremendous bureaucracy and resistance?

[Rosie Cooper]

Yes, and if MPs have problems, God help members of the public and patients.

We had to demonstrate that we were really listening to patients. The medical and managerial staff had to take ownership and responsibility for complaints. They knew that at each board meeting they could be questioned and challenged. If we accept that there are large parts of the system that work well and focus our time and resources on areas that do not, we can raise standards and tackle deep-seated problems. As chair, I sought to build in assurance and be transparent about complaints; to solve them, not hide from them, and ensure that everyone was accountable right up through the management structure. I never believed in no blame; I believed in fair blame. Each time a problem was resolved properly, we became a better hospital. We were rightly proud that on the front page of the Liverpool Echo Liverpool Women’s hospital was called an NHS gem. Sadly, the main board’s complaints report stopped after I stepped down as chair.

We do not need to reinvent the wheel or have more reorganisation in the NHS, but we must make the complaints system work. From that important but simple action, culture changes happen and become embedded in the organisation. We then have real change, real transparency, real openness and real accountability—something we can all be proud of.

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

A complaints system sounds very useful. When staff knew that complaints were being assessed and reported on every month, what impact did it have on them?

[Rosie Cooper]

In essence, it encouraged a change of culture. They were not operating in a vacuum, where patients did not matter and where the complaint might not ever get resolved—where, if a manager said it was okay, it disappeared. The fact that the light was switched on and that people could ask questions was valued.

There is a huge disconnect between the rules and the enforcement of rules. When local resolution fails there must be another, proper avenue for patients to appeal that decision: just having the NHS investigate the NHS is not the way to improve the health service, or patients’ confidence in it. Currently, the message we send out is that unless people have the financial resources to fight the system in the courts it is easy for families and patients to be ignored.

Chief executives and boards know that the ombudsman investigates only a tiny proportion of the cases referred to it, and it is not as feared as it should be. I say to the Secretary of State that we need an ombudsman service that is properly resourced, has the necessary investigative powers and sanctions, and makes public in its reports its findings to everybody who pays for the NHS, not just to Ministers. Being able to name and shame in the spirit of openness and transparency will be a powerful tool, especially when, in these times of foundation trust hospitals competing to attract business, reputation is the key.

Given that all hospitals will eventually become foundation hospitals, is the Secretary of State willing to say that foundation hospitals will have to report all their statistics openly and that every board meeting should be a public meeting? There should be no hiding; there should be openness and transparency right across the NHS. The light needs to be switched on not just in individual rooms but in the NHS, full stop.

I have on the wall of my constituency office this quote from an editorial in the Liverpool Echo:

“Doing the right things does not automatically follow saying the right things”.

At present, everyone in the national health service is saying the right things. What assurance can the Secretary of State give us that the NHS will do the right things? Frankly, the public do not want any more politics from anybody. They do not want warm words or excuses; they want actions that will lead to real change. No more big reorganisations; we just need to make a difference. He must listen to the people’s complaints. Actually, in Mid Staffs the complaints could not have been any louder.

I said to the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) earlier that we cannot keep on saying that it is somebody else’s fault, that somebody else should be held accountable and that somebody else is going to supervise. This goes to the core of the Department of Health. If we listen to the people and give the ombudsman—the right person for the job—the powers to deliver, we will see a culture change.

13:41

[Mr Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood) (Con)]

I want to follow the hon. Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper) on to very similar territory. She and I both sit on the Health Select Committee, which I chair. I want to start where my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) started, with what happened in Mid Staffordshire. It was shameful, and we will be judged today by whether we show a serious willingness to learn and apply the lessons of the Francis inquiry.

Francis made 290 recommendations, but they amount to just one core recommendation, which is that there needs to be a fundamental culture change through the whole of the national health service. With respect to the shadow Secretary of State, that is the sense in which challenges are posed for the health service way beyond Staffordshire. We have to learn the lessons of Staffordshire and apply them beyond it, as well as demonstrating that we understand what we mean—in the modern jargon, we “get it”—when we talk about the need for a culture change.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) encapsulated that when she used the words “accountability” and “transparency”. I will not follow her down the route that she took in her speech. I want to focus exclusively on what we mean by those two words. They seem to trip too easily off the tongue, without anyone understanding what they mean, and that must change if we are to sustain a culture change in the health service.

My first proposition is that accountability without transparency is entirely meaningless. The ability to see what is going on and how decisions are being made in the health service, and to see the effects of those decisions, is fundamental to the delivery of the objective of culture change. With respect to the right hon. Member for Leigh—and, indeed, to some of the points that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made—we have to acknowledge that a lack of transparency lies deep in the culture of the health service, and that it goes back to way before the previous Government were in office. It was present in my time as Secretary of State and well before that, too. I was regularly accused of supporting a gagging culture in the health service, although nothing could have been further from my intention. However, that charge was made against me, against the right hon. Members for Leigh and for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) and, in truth, against all our predecessors right back to 1948.

The instinct to protect, rather than the instinct to reveal, is deeply embedded in the health service. When something is said to be going wrong, there is an instinct for the wagons to gather round. That is why Francis’s recommendation for a duty of candour is key to the delivery of the objective of greater accountability and transparency.

[Barbara Keeley]

Was the right hon. Gentleman as disturbed as I was to hear that the £500,000 gag at the United Lincolnshire Hospitals NHS Trust was put in place without any sign-off whatever, on the basis that it had involved judicial mediation? The Secretary of State refused to answer my question about this. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree that the Secretary of State really has to stop that, because it involved a very large amount of money, which was used very ill-advisedly?

[Mr Dorrell]

The position I take is the one set out in the Francis report, which was explicitly endorsed by Sir David Nicholson in the Select Committee inquiry to which the hon. Lady has referred. I believe that it would also be endorsed by my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, but he must speak for himself. That position is that it is hard to imagine circumstances in which the use of public money in the context of a compromise agreement should be governed by a confidentiality clause. In an age when a bill from Pizza Express has to be published on the internet, decision makers should be held publicly accountable for the use of large sums of money in the context of a compromise agreement.

[Mr Jenkin]

I accept my right hon. Friend’s challenge about openness and transparency in the way the health service reacts outwardly, but that is a means to an end. There is also a lack of honesty and openness between people working in the health service, and the mistrust between levels of management and institutions inhibits the proper flow of information and the ability of people to trust each other in the context of saying what is wrong and putting it right. People in the health service dare not tell their senior management what is wrong.

[Mr Dorrell]

I have a lot of sympathy with what my hon. Friend says. The successful delivery of a culture change that supports real transparency would build on the fact that it is not only a right but an obligation for a registered doctor or nurse who sees care being provided that falls below proper standards to raise their concerns and, if no action is taken, for those concerns to be raised with the regulator. Change will be required right through the health service if that professional obligation is to be made real.

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

My right hon. Friend has mentioned the instinct to protect and to circle the wagons. Would he accept, however, that that is not exclusive to the NHS, and that it also exists in the police service, for example? It also existed in Parliament during the expenses scandal. It is an institutional feature of many kinds of organisation.

[Mr Dorrell]

I agree with my hon. Friend, but I hope he will forgive me if I do not follow him down the road to the police service in the three and a half minutes I have left.

My key objective is to enable Members to recognise that this is a deep-seated cultural issue, that we need to create a more open culture, and that a duty of candour is fundamental to that. I say to the right hon. Member for Leigh that we need to ask ourselves occasionally: accountable to whom? Surely in the first instance, the health service must be accountable to the patient. How can it ever be right for a failing in care provision that has been acknowledged and discussed not to be described to the patient? That duty of candour to the patient is fundamental to the culture change that I am describing. However, we have to remember that, within the tax-funded health care system, there is a duty not only to the patient but to the taxpayer. Although I do not want to go too far down this road, the challenge for the right hon. Member for Leigh when he speaks about competition and decisions about the use of public money is that commissioners and providers must be accountable for value as well as clinicians being accountable for quality.

In my remaining time, I want to pose this challenge for those elected to this House. The challenge of culture change has to apply right through the health service, but people looking into this debate from outside will, I suspect, conclude that thus far that challenge has not been fully responded to. There is a deep-seated culture here that pretends that the problems all started under this or that lot, or that every success is the result of achievements made by one particular side, but the truth is that this deep-seated requirement for culture change has been addressed by successive Governments over a protracted period.

We should not forget that waiting time targets were invented before I was Secretary of State for Health. Quality of care requires access to care as well as to high-quality clinical outcomes. We should not forget that deep in the pathology of what happened in Staffordshire, the health economy there was out of control. It was running sustained deficits and management was required to bring that health economy under control. There is no choice between quality on the one hand and management on the other. We need to develop a culture within the health service that allows managers to address questions of both quality and value, because unless we address both, we will deliver neither. That is the core challenge facing the health service over the period ahead.

13:51

[Kate Hoey (Vauxhall) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell), who speaks with a breadth of experience and history in the national health service, and I congratulate the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) on securing this long debate, providing an opportunity to all of us to say a few words.

I agree wholeheartedly with everything my hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper) said, particularly about what seems to me, too, to be a growing public body desire for secrecy. This is happening not in the national health service alone, but in many other bodies. Indeed, as my hon. Friend well knows, it is happening in this House. I am concerned about a number of issues—how staff are treated, getting rid of the telephone exchange and a whole number of other decisions taken up there somewhere. We, as Members who work here, have very little say.

It is important for us to remember the Nolan principles of public life to which every public body is meant to sign up—accountability, openness, honesty and leadership. I do not want to say much specifically about what happened in Mid Staffordshire, but it was appalling. As someone who has had a good and well-led hospital in my constituency for many years, I find it almost unbelievable that all that could have happened in the Mid Staffordshire hospital with so few people seeming to know what happened or to speak out about it. Then, when it was pointed out, no one listened. That provides a terrible warning about what can happen. We all think that we know what is happening in our constituencies, but we do not always, as this episode has shown.

Let me talk about my local hospital Guy’s and St Thomas’, King’s College hospital and SLAM—the South London and Maudsley hospital. What has been called the “King’s Health Partners” has sought to bring together the research work at King’s College medical school with others, and the body is now growing to be almost an entity in itself, making decisions, sending out publicity and getting further and further away from the foundation trust.

Looking back to when my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) was Secretary of State for Health, some of the decisions he made in the Health Act 1999 were more about accountability than anything that has been done since by any Government. For example, he instructed NHS chairmen to hold their board meetings in public, while non-executive directors were required to live in the area served by the trust—a crucial step that fundamentally changed St Thomas’ hospital when we had a local chairman who knew the area, was involved in the hospital and cared about it. She spent all her time as chairman wandering around the hospital trying to find out about everything that was going on: she was accountable to everyone. That was crucial to the public, too, as they knew that they had people on the board who knew what was happening in the locality.

I believe that one of the first responsibilities of non-executive directors—they are not part of the management —is to visit the wards, to talk to patients, to collate local concerns and to talk to MPs, local councillors and the local authority. That was always happening. We had a very good system. There were concerns about the treatment of the elderly at one stage in one of the wards for elderly people at St Thomas’, but they got dealt with very quickly because we had a responsive chairman and a responsive board. A lot of that happened when my right hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St Pancras was the Secretary of State. The Health Act 1999 also gave the chief executive officer absolute personal responsibility for clinical governance standards—another important reform—in addition to the responsibility to be the accountable officer.

Later we had foundation trusts, although I have to say that I did not vote for them. I have had a well-led foundation trust up to now, but I did not feel that this was the right way ahead for the national health service at the time. We have got them, however, and some foundation trusts saw fit to erode the principles as financial considerations took precedence over clinical standards on many board agendas. The foundation trusts still remain the chief executive officer’s responsibility.

One thing the King’s Health Partners are doing in the name of foundation trusts is steamrolling ahead to bring about a merger of Guy’s and St Thomas’ hospital, which is a huge trust, King’s College hospital, which is another huge trust, and the South London and Maudsley trust. It is believed that the merger will somehow lead to a “world-class”—I do not know how many times Members have heard the term—hospital.

I am furious and angry—as are, I think, all five of the MPs representing the area at how this merger has been handled. The lack of openness has been appalling and there has been no public board meetings or disclosure of information about the proposed changes. The proposals have been either badly put forward or not put forward at all. The board at St Guy’s and St Thomas’ has an occasional surreal meeting as a showcase for public involvement, but it never discusses the real issues. It opens meetings for the public only when it suits the board.

[Lyn Brown]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the plans for reorganisation of the trusts south of the river need to be put on hold?

[Kate Hoey]

That is precisely what the five Members of Parliament have asked for. Recently, on 28 February, we heard from the chairman of Guy’s and St Thomas’, who was previously a permanent secretary at the Department of Health. That takes me back to one of my earlier points about people moving around within the health service. It is always somebody who has been someone else in somebody else’s patch that gets a job with another NHS trust. This chairman wrote to say that the project is forging ahead with a full business case. William McKee, who brought together trusts in Northern Ireland, has been appointed and we are told that he is going to spend at least £5 million to bring about the business case to show why this will be such a wonderful idea. The right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) and I have written back asking who is actively responsible, how the money from the different bodies is being allocated, what the precise budget will be and how it will be spent by whom. The whole accountability thing is there in a nutshell. Who is actually accountable? Does the Secretary of State have any say whatsoever? No. Apparently he is only interested if the move will clearly not be good for patients in clinical terms.

I know that the establishment of such a large trust will be totally against the interests of people. Trusts cannot operate on such a large scale. One chief nurse cannot be responsible for all those hospitals.

13:59

[Dr Phillip Lee (Bracknell) (Con)]

As ever, it is an honour to follow the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey).

Let me begin by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) on securing a debate about this important subject. It is a subject that I think should be debated more often in the Chamber, and I find it surprising that fewer Members wish to speak about it than have wished to speak about some of the other issues that we have considered since Christmas. I think all Members should reflect on that.

I believe that the core of this problem is responsibility: responsibility in public life. The general public are fed up—not increasingly fed up, but completely fed up—with hearing about scandal after scandal involving the national health service, the BBC, the newspapers and so on, for which no one takes any responsibility. No one walks. No one looks at themselves in the mirror in the morning and says “I did not do as well as I should have; I am paid a decent wage; the honourable thing to do is resign”—not “be sacked”, but resign.

I do not want to make a speech about Sir David Nicholson. Sir David Nicholson should know that he ought to resign. I cannot comprehend how he can think that his position is sustainable from a moral standpoint, but if no morality is involved, what about competence? He may have been head of the strategic health authority for only a relatively short time, but he was aware of the mortality rates when he was in that job. What did he do about it? If he did nothing about it, why is he still in post? However, I do not want to make this a personal issue.

Having worked in the national health service for 13 or 14 years, I do not need to be told about the problems caused by the culture in that institution. I learnt how it was as a medical student, and I saw it at first hand as a junior doctor. I want to say something about that, and also about competence in general. We need competent individuals in charge of our hospitals and on hospital wards, but I am not sure that we have had them in recent years. I also want to say something about responsibility in the light of that.

The national health service is a huge institution—some might say too huge—and because of its size, the fact that it has grown over the past 60 or 70 years, and the fact that the people who work in it rarely leave, institutionalised behaviour is rife. It is rife in medicine and in management. In my view, former Secretaries of State on both sides of the House display such institutionalised behaviour themselves. They may wish to reflect on that at the end of the debate.

The first debate in the House in which I spoke, apart from the debate during which I made my maiden speech, was a Backbench Business Committee debate about compensation for haemophiliacs. I was struck then by the institutionalised response from the Department of Health. It seemed plain that the Department did not want to set a precedent by doing what was obviously the right thing, namely compensating about 4,000 people and their families for what the system had done to them.

I am therefore not surprised by the Francis report, which those who read it will discover to be a not particularly impressive document. Parts of it have the ring of a Nuremberg defence. It is remarkable that individuals cannot be held responsible for their actions within a system. That system is apparently so perfect that no one within it needs to be good. I think that we need a health service in which individuals, including Secretaries of State, take responsibility for their decisions at every stage.

[Mr Cash]

Was my hon. Friend surprised, as I was, that neither of the Secretaries of State who were in charge at the time were called to give evidence to the inquiry? Did he find that very strange?

[Dr Lee]

I did find it very strange. In fact, I find the behaviour of both former Secretaries of State strange all round. There is a constant blaming of—

[Mr Cash]

May I just correct one thing? The shadow Secretary of State was called to give evidence, but not the previous two Secretaries of State.

[Dr Lee]

I am talking about those who were Secretaries of State in the last Administration. In response to an intervention during his speech, the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) said, “I passed it on to Monitor.” The attitude that leads people to push away the process of decision making and take no responsibility for the outcomes needs to end.

[Andy Burnham]

Surely, as a clinician, the hon. Gentleman would resent the idea of politicians’ interfering in the independent clinical regulation of hospitals. I did not do nothing. Within days I had asked the Care Quality Commission to investigate the outliers that Brian Jarman had given me. I will not sit here and accept the hon. Gentleman’s suggestion that I complacently did nothing. That is not true, and he should not repeat it in the House.

[Dr Lee]

Despite that, nothing changed, did it? The CQC has a terrible reputation in my profession, and to have handed the matter over to it—when it was run by someone who was implicated at Mid Staffordshire—is not a defence.

Let me broaden the discussion to something that I may know something about: practising medicine in organisations run by the Department of Health. I can tell the House that the prevailing atmosphere is one in which attention is not drawn to problems. There is a fear for jobs down the line. Let me give an example. When I was a junior doctor, I misused a photocopying machine in a hospital. Within hours, I received a phone call from a middle-grade doctor telling me that if I did that again, it would affect my reference. The phone call, I was told, had been authorised by the then consultant general surgeon at St Mary’s, Ara Darzi. I reflected on that at the time. It made me feel rather intimidated. [Interruption.] The prevailing mood in hospitals was that seeing or doing something wrong could adversely affect a person’s future career.

[Charlotte Leslie]

Does my hon. Friend share my regret that Opposition Members are groaning in that way? What he is describing has been very evident for very many years. One need only speak to a doctor to learn that there is a culture of fear. Nearly every doctor knows someone who has tried to speak out against something that has happened. People know that if they do that, there will be counter-allegations against them. The groaning and expressions of surprise from Opposition Members are very sad, because it reveals just how little they were actually talking to clinicians on the ground who have been complaining about this for a decade. I received an e-mail from the spouse of a clinician who said that over the past 15 years the management styles encouraged by the previous Government had made that clinician ill.

[Dr Lee]

Of course my hon. Friend is right.

[Rosie Cooper]

Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

[Dr Lee]

I must get on, I am afraid. I do apologise.

The point I am trying to make is that a certain culture prevails, and into that culture, or environment, the last Administration introduced targets. I do not suggest for one second that the last Administration thought those targets would lead to the type of care that was provided at Mid Staffordshire, but I am not surprised that there were adverse consequences, and I think Opposition Members should reflect on that.

The final thing that I want to say about culture and competence concerns politicians. The right hon. Member for Leigh said that I would not want politicians to interfere in day-to-day care. Of course I would not, but I would like politicians to take responsibility for the service. Let me give an example. There are only about 250 acute trusts in the country, and not that many mortality figures have to be looked at in each trust. It could be done on a monthly basis. However, I am told that it was not done by Secretaries of State in the last Administration. Why? If I were the Secretary of State, the one thing I would want to look at would be clinical outcomes in hospitals. If that is beyond Secretaries of State, one is prompted to ask why they are in post. If those figures had been looked at earlier enough, we might not be having this debate.

Competence and the right culture are only possible with transparency. That is the most important aspect of this whole issue.

14:09

[Alan Johnson (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)]

Well, there’s a man who knows all the answers!

It was four years ago on Monday when I apologised to this House on behalf of the Government and the national health service for what happened at Stafford. We had just received the report from the Healthcare Commission, and I think it is fair to say that no one with any experience of the NHS could quite believe what had gone on. The people in charge at a time when there were unprecedented resources and investment being put into the NHS had cut staffing on A and E to such an extent that a receptionist with no medical training was triage nursing in A and E.

We need a longer debate. There is nothing ostensibly wrong with the motion, and I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) that we should support it, but it is clear from the way it was moved and the last contribution that this is all about the blame game. If I can just quote Francis—[Interruption.] Yes, the hon. Member for Bracknell (Dr Lee) does not agree with Francis or with Ara Darzi and knows everything, and says that Francis was a Nuremberg—

[Dr Lee]

rose—

[Alan Johnson]

No, I am not giving way—at least not to the hon. Gentleman. I have heard enough.

This is what Francis said in paragraph 108 of his report:

“To place too much emphasis on individual blame is to risk perpetuating the illusion that removal of particular individuals is all that is necessary. That is certainly not the case here. To focus, therefore, on blame will perpetuate the cycle of defensiveness, concealment, lessons not being identified and further harm.”

So the man who knows most about what happened at Stafford hospital—and who was entrusted by this Government and their predecessors to conduct not one, but two, inquiries, and who in four volumes running to millions of words sets out what happened, why it happened and how it was allowed to happen—counsels against the very action that this motion appears to propose.

Francis identified who was accountable, and the Secretary of State was absolutely right: it was the chief executive, the chair and the board of the Mid Staffordshire trust. A number of clinicians are also held accountable for the appalling lapse in standards of care at Stafford. This accountability regime is set out in legislation approved by this House.

The Francis findings are consistent with those that emerged from the inquiry into the care of children receiving complex cardiac surgery at Bristol Royal infirmary between 1984 and 1995. In that case, five individuals at the hospital, including the chief executive, were the subject of adverse comments. In respect of both Bristol and Stafford, an argument was made to an inquiry that there was an extenuating failure of national policy. At Stafford, it was national targets; at Bristol, it was inadequate resources.

It is worth recalling the Bristol inquiry’s response. Sir Ian Kennedy said:

“The inadequacy in resources for PCS”—

paediatric cardiac surgery—

“at Bristol was typical of the NHS as a whole. From this, it follows that whatever went wrong at Bristol was not caused by lack of resources. Other centres laboured under the same or similar difficulties.”

We must remember that these were the days when one in every 25 patients on the cardiac waiting list died before they could be operated on, and when somebody with a serious heart condition could wait a year to see the cardiologist, three months to see the consultant and then 18 months to two years for the operation. That is why targets had to be introduced—to get a grip on this awful situation.

[Mr Cash]

I am astonished by the line on accountability that the right hon. Gentleman is taking. He was the Secretaryof State and I had a row with him at the time—and, indeed, with his successor—about the question of holding a proper full public inquiry under the Inquiries Act 2005. I wrote to him, too, and I did not get satisfactory answers under the guidelines laid down in the 2005 Act on the prime ministerial rules issued by the Cabinet Office.

[Alan Johnson]

On the question of a public inquiry, when Francis reported on his first inquiry, commissioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh, he made the point that it was about people affected being able to come and tell their story, and Francis said in his first report:

“I am confident that many of the witnesses who have assisted the inquiry in written or oral evidence would not have done so had the inquiry been conducted in public.”

It is very important that that first inquiry allowed people to come forward. The right hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley) may also well have been right to make the second stage of that a public inquiry, which was authorised because of one of the Francis recommendations, because we now have all the information, provided before a Queen’s counsel, about what happened there.

Francis is very clear about no blame being apportioned to any Minister. It is of course right for Ministers to be accountable if anyone knew what was going on and did nothing to stop it, or if something that was going on was a result of a Government edict or policy, but that was not the case at Stafford.

Targets had to be introduced to get a grip on this terrible situation of lack of access to health care. Targets did not cost lives; they helped to save lives. They were accompanied by the resources, the capacity and the political will that transformed waiting lists of 18 months to two years to a maximum of 18 weeks and an average of nine.

This is what Francis said about targets:

“It is important to make clear that it is not suggested that properly designed targets, appropriately monitored cannot provide considerable benefits and serve a useful purpose…indeed the inquiry accepts that they can be an important part of the health system in which the democratically elected Government of the day sets its expectations of providers who are funded by the taxpayer.”

The right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell) was absolutely right to say that long waiting lists have dogged the NHS since it was created in 1948. Rudolf Klein, the great historian of the NHS, says every Health Secretary shouted their orders from the bridge and the crew carried on regardless. Something had to be done to deal with that, and it was done.

[Mr Jeremy Hunt]

Does the right hon. Gentleman not accept that the issue was not targets, but the failure to put in place safeguards to stop managers twisting a targets culture into a culture of targets at any cost? That was the fundamental policy mistake. The lack of those safeguards meant Mid Staffs could happen.

[Alan Johnson]

The Secretary of State is right. Of course there need to be safeguards to ensure any system has a backstop to stop people misusing targets. The guidance from the Department of Health was very clear. In no way must the pursuance of targets interfere with the need for good patient care. The Stafford chief executive must have translated that into saying it was fine to put receptionists on triage nursing. With all due respect to the Secretary of State, I do not think that he or any of his successors or predecessors can make regulations to meet every eventuality, including for someone like that chief executive of the Mid Staffs trust.

[Charlotte Leslie]

In some ways I agree with the right hon. Gentleman, in that I think targets and ensuring that things are happening is not the main cause of what went wrong. Does he agree, however, that targets along with what many medical professionals criticise as the de-professionalising of the work force through the consultant contract, the working time directive and the new deal was a toxic combination?

[Alan Johnson]

The principal point about targets is that they reduced waiting list times. They changed a situation in which people were dying while on waiting lists, which was a disgrace in a civilised country like ours.

The Francis report also gives no comfort to those who expected him to offer up Sir David Nicholson’s head on a plate. The irony is that they choose to make this attack on an NHS that is learning the lessons of Stafford and an individual, Sir David Nicholson, who has done more than anyone to make quality of care the organising principle of the NHS. I, like my three successors as Health Secretary, consider Sir David to be part of the solution, rather than part of the problem He is not perfect—none of us is—but he is a good public servant who is committed to the NHS, its patients and staff. If he knew what was going on at Stafford, or colluded in the awful events there, or if any of his edicts, policies or pronouncements were in any way responsible for what happened, I would agree with his detractors. No one knew what was going on at Stafford; not even the press, who pride themselves on fearlessly exposing wrongdoing. Not a single question was raised by local MPs in this House about what was happening at Stafford, and Francis has something to say about the way they passed on complaints.

[Mr Cash]

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

[Alan Johnson]

No, and I read the hon. Gentleman’s correspondence and it in no way drew attention to what was happening at Stafford.

[Mr Cash]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. Please resume your seat, Mr Cash.

09:30

[John Pugh (Southport) (LD)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) on calling for this debate, which I want to widen and, I hope, put on a more consensual footing.

I have a constituent whose grown-up son tragically died of leukaemia some time ago. He went to the doctor many times and was diagnosed as a young, healthy man with glandular fever. A blood test was made far too late, and he died. After the funeral, the mortified doctor wrote to the parents and apologised frankly for her failure and her error. There was no litigation or talk of system failure; there was simply a frank admission of individual human error and a sincere apology, which was accepted.

In many cases of NHS failure, there is no one individual to blame, so people talk of systems and cultures, which we have talked about constantly today. No one individual can be held entirely to blame for the system, so it always seems that no one person is to blame or is prepared to take the blame—even those who manage and design the system, such as Sir David Nicholson.

When a hospital performs badly, and the one in Mid Staffs is simply the most telling example, some of the reasons lie in external factors: in the targets imposed on it, in the requirements made of it—becoming a foundation trust is one it could have done without—and in directions that impaired it. The NHS reorganisation certainly got in the way, according to Francis. When outcomes are poor, it can be hard to determine exactly how to apportion blame and responsibility. Do we blame those who witnessed what went on and did nothing; those who failed to notice worrying trends; those who did notice them but covered them up; or those who could have intervened from on high but did nothing? In one sense, they are all responsible—and some are more responsible than others. But we live in a very harsh and judgmental climate, as was said earlier, and we forget that people at every stage have mixed motives—good and bad—for not kicking up a fuss, for covering up, for not intervening. Some are good—usually, they are bad—but in most cases institutional or personal reasons outweigh the concern for patients. There are quite legitimate fears that the hospital or branch will be criticised or seen as underperforming, which will be bad for morale in hospital, or that one’s career will be in jeopardy—a legitimate concern—or that one is getting a colleague into trouble. Institutional or personal goals get separated from the avowed patient-centred mission of the NHS. Frankly, that is all too human an outcome, and it has always happened to some extent. The NHS is full of very good people, but it is not yet staffed by saints. All of us at some time cover up for colleagues.

However, we always try to find in an institution a way of correcting for this, which is why we have professional standards in the medical profession and an NHS constitution. It is why we need true accountability, good complaint-handling, protection for whistleblowers, duty of candour, the learning of lessons and, of course, proper redress. That is why we have had legislation on the NHS constitution and increased democratic scrutiny, introduced by both Governments, which I applaud. I am not entirely certain what has happened to the NHS redress Bill, but I applaud that too.

However, we build other sorts of incentives into the system, and it is as well to record them. They appeal to a different aspect of human nature, a more selfish side, perhaps out of realism, perhaps because of an ideological conviction that that is how people work. We model hospitals on profit-making institutions. We make survival dependent on competition with other profit-making institutions, which have gagging clauses in their contracts for good reasons—their competitors. We try to modify clinician behaviour not always by appealing to clinical judgment, but by appealing to the pocket. Therefore, we should not be surprised if the moral atmosphere, at times, becomes a little cloudy. We, as legislators, are partly responsible for that.

If we turn the NHS into a set of businesses united by a corporate brand, should we be surprised if occasionally, individual branches put their interests ahead of those of their patients, choosing to satisfy those who pay—the Government—rather than the patients they serve?

There are many good things that we can do and would wish to do. We can make the complaints process easier. We can assign accountability better, so that an individual’s job and survival in an organisation depends on serving the patient, not on always doing what the institution necessarily requires. We can ban gagging orders, and I applaud the Secretary of State’s move in that direction. We can improve inspection, not by making it more ferocious—we do not need to do that—but by linking it better to improvement. Above all, we need to start thinking about what we want the NHS to be. If we are unhappy with the culture, exactly what sort do we want to have? Do we want the moral enterprise that Bevan envisaged—a contract on behalf of the hale and hearty, to protect the sick and vulnerable—or a set of businesses that sink or swim depending on how good they are at getting state funding? We can either rediscover the moral purpose of the NHS, or regard it as an organisation that brings to book from time to time the businesses that work within it, independently of the Secretary of State.

Frankly, I know which I prefer, but I have to record that currently we exist in a strange kind of moral limbo. We are judging an institution that looks very different from the original NHS, according to the high standards and moral mission Bevan set. I have a lot of sympathy with the remarks of Harry Cayton of the Professional Standards Authority, who said in The Times only this week that the NHS must rediscover its “moral purpose”. We exist in a kind of moral fog, a state of limbo, and if we want to know who is accountable for that, it is us.

09:30

[Jim Dowd (Lewisham West and Penge) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Southport (John Pugh), who always makes thoughtful contributions.

I congratulate those Members who tabled this motion, to which I was happy to add my name. I am grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for agreeing to this debate, but, like others, I feel that the issue is so important that it should be debated in Government time. However, I suspect that, in the light of developments, we have not heard the last of the issues raised by the Francis report. The Secretary of State outlined a few of the measures he is intending to bring before the House, so we will have opportunities for other such debates.

I will not refer in any great detail to the Mid Staffs fiasco, serious though that is, and the obvious implications for other areas across the country. I want to concentrate on transparency, and to avail the House of the experience in south-east London of the tender mercies of the first, and so far only, trust special administrator, who was appointed to the trust next door to Lewisham—the South London Healthcare NHS Trust. That trust comprises the Princess Royal University hospital, in Orpington; the Queen Elizabeth hospital, in Greenwich; Queen Mary’s hospital, in Sidcup; and the Orpington hospital—although that was actually subject to a separate consultation.

The then Secretary of State said in a statement on 12 July last year:

“I wish to inform the House that I have made an order to appoint a trust special administrator to South London Healthcare NHS Trust…The regime, included by the last Government in the Health Act 2009, offers a time-limited and transparent framework to provide a rapid resolution to the problems within a significantly challenged NHS trust”—

trust, singular. He continued:

“The trust special administrator’s regime is not a day-to-day performance management tool for the NHS or a back-door approach to reconfiguration.”—[Official Report, 12 July 2012; Vol. 548, c. 47-48 WS.]

On 13 July, he issued the order to give effect to those measures.

I raise this as a transparency issue because the trust special administrator brought forward proposals that damage, downgrade, devastate, destroy—whichever word one wants to use—Lewisham hospital, which is a completely separate trust. The right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell), who is the Chair of the Health Committee and has great knowledge and experience of these matters, said that accountability and transparency are interlinked: we cannot have one without the other. I agree with him wholeheartedly, but that has not been the experience of the people in Lewisham: the TSA is entirely unaccountable. The TSA stands at the head of a disgraceful, disreputable conspiracy—launched in the Department of Health, aided and abetted by NHS London and handled in the most autocratic manner—to downgrade Lewisham hospital.

The titles of both the orders issued by the Secretary of State, copies of which I have here, start with the words:

“The South London Healthcare National Health Service Trust”.

The order setting up the administrator states:

“That draft report to the Secretary of State must state the action which the trust special administrator recommends the Secretary of State should take in relation to the South London Healthcare National Health Service Trust.”

It contains no mention of anybody else, yet the Department now says, “Of course we needed to look at the whole of south London and the whole of the health economy of south-east London, because everything connects to everything else.” Well, that is true of everything in the whole wide world.

From day one, all the documents of the TSA included the phrase “Securing sustainable NHS services”. One such document was headed: “Securing sustainable NHS services—Consultation on the Trust Special Administrator’s draft report for South London Healthcare NHS Trust and the NHS in south east London”. This House did not give the administrator that authority—the law does not provide for the administrator to look at the situation across south-east London—and he has acted beyond his powers.

I come now to the most interesting thing, and I accept that the current Secretary of State has had this matter dropped in his lap. If this was always about the whole of south-east London, why when the former Secretary of State had a meeting in July to discuss this did he invite the Members who represented Bromley, Bexley and Greenwich—rightly, because they cover the South London Healthcare NHS Trust area—and the Members for Lewisham? One could say that it was because they were looking more widely. Of course that is so, but he did not invite the Members representing Lambeth or Southwark. However, when we met this Secretary of State in January, after the TSA’s final report had been published, the Members for Lambeth and Southwark were included; we were told that this was a south London-wide issue. The reason for the discrepancy is obvious: they knew what they wanted to do. They wanted to get an old plan that NHS London had fostered to try to get Lewisham hospital closed. That took place under a proper clinical review under “A picture of health” four years ago, which concluded that Lewisham hospital deserved to survive and that the services it provided for the people of Lewisham should continue.

Some 10,000 people marched in November to oppose the proposals. When the final report came out, 25,000 people marched because of the outrageous actions of this administrator and the activities he has undertaken. The manner in which he dealt with the consultations was dismissive, disdainful and high-handed. Whether the objections were from members of the public, GPs or other clinicians, he behaved in line with the instructions from his bosses, which were simply to close Lewisham hospital. The people of Lewisham will not stand for it.

14:33

[Jeremy Lefroy (Stafford) (Con)]

I wish to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) and the Backbench Business Committee for calling this debate. I particularly wish to remember all those in my constituency and elsewhere, and their loved ones, who suffered so grievously. I wish to pay tribute to those here today who campaigned to bring these things to light. I also thank the Prime Minister, the Secretary of State and all other hon. Members for their response to the report a month or so ago.

One of the main thrusts of the Francis report is to:

“Ensure openness, transparency and candour throughout the system about matters of concern”.

This is not the time to debate the Francis report fully—it was commissioned by the Government and it needs full and prompt consideration in Government time—but it is the time to say that the Francis report is of great importance. Mr Francis rightly dismisses the arguments of those who claimed at the time that the inquiry was unnecessary because Stafford hospital was a solitary exception—it was not. It may have been considerably worse than other places, but appalling standards of care have been revealed elsewhere.

The public inquiry has revealed complacency throughout the NHS and beyond; report after report detailed major concerns, which were either ignored or passed to others to deal with. What lay behind that? Perhaps it was a lack of willingness to shout and continue to shout for help when it was needed; or perhaps it was more often a fear of the consequences—the loss of one’s job or the removal of services from the local community.

Even just last week, when, as the shadow Secretary of State rightly said, a report to Monitor suggested removing most emergency, acute and maternity services from Stafford—something my constituents and I strongly oppose for reasons I set out in the House last week—there were those blaming Julie Bailey for the proposals. That comes on top of disgraceful threats—even death threats—that she has received over her work in revealing what Robert Francis, who should know if anyone does, calls the “disaster at Stafford Hospital”.

Let me make it clear that the proposals in the Monitor report are, in the main, a consequence of the financial and clinical pressures that all acute trusts, particularly the smaller ones, are facing. Stafford’s circumstances have done a little to hasten changes, but what happens at Stafford now will face all other such trusts in the coming years. That it is why it is so important that Monitor and the Secretary of State come to a good solution for Stafford, and indeed Cannock, and I will continue to work with them and with my hon. Friends on that. Nobody should take from the Monitor report the message that whistleblowing or more transparency will result in threats to their local services. Indeed, Monitor would be acting contrary to section 62 of the Health and Social Care Act 2012 if it acted in such a manner.

Let me raise another, perhaps more justified, fear of the unintended consequences of transparency. Only this week, I heard of a case where a patient could have a life-saving operation, but his chances of surviving it are only 50:50, yet without an operation he will die. Some surgeons are, even now, reluctant to take on the operation because if the patient dies, it will be counted against them in their personal mortality statistics. That is an unintended consequence of transparency, so transparency has to be balanced with understanding the context; otherwise, we will end up with a risk aversion that is so great that patients will suffer.

Transparency can also thrive only in a culture that is not led by blame. One of the doctors who gave evidence to Francis said:

“There was a blame-led culture, the culture being that problems had to be fixed or nursing jobs would be lost.”

How can we persuade the most suitable people to take up vital, often voluntary, roles on trust boards if their attempts to raise problems are met by blame or indifference? As my hon. Friend the Member for Southport (John Pugh) said, transparency must start right here in Parliament. He spoke movingly about moral purpose, and I agree with what he said.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

I agree that we do not want to deter people from becoming board members, but surely my hon. Friend must agree that if things are still going wrong and the board is not holding the chief executive and the leadership to account, its members’ positions should be questioned.

[Jeremy Lefroy]

I would never disagree with that. I entirely agree with what my hon. Friend says, but there is a danger that there will be so much adverse scrutiny that people will be afraid to come forward. We must challenge that and say, “You have every right, as a board member, to raise whatever you want, whenever you want.”

As I was saying, we need a proper debate here in Parliament on health care in this country, one not constrained by party dogma or blind nostalgia. It is up to us to have that debate and, as a result, give clear direction, rather than simply to react to whatever is thrown at us. We need to debate, for instance, the nonsense of pretending that it is entirely the responsibility of local trusts to deliver. So much is out of their control, be it per-patient funding, which is still far too variable, clinical standards, which are set almost in a vacuum by the royal colleges, or the impact of the European working time directive on costs, rotas and training. We need to debate the impact of the large number of specialisations in the UK—we have 61 as against Norway’s 30—which is driving up costs and driving out vital general medical and surgical expertise. We need to debate emergency and acute tariffs, which have, for many years, meant that hospitals around the country are squeezed and face forced reconfigurations that may not be in the best interests of patients.

Robert Francis also says that one of the main principles is to:

“Make all those who provide care for patients—individuals and organisations—properly accountable for what they do and to ensure that the public is protected from those not fit to provide such a service.”

He also says:

“There must be a proper degree of accountability for senior managers and leaders.”

Accountability was sorely lacking at Mid Staffs. There were attempts to see that responsibility stopped with the board. As I have already said, that is based on the fiction that it is somehow entirely in control of its own destiny. It is not. That does not absolve the board or management, but the responsibility is shared by those who determine so much of the environment in which they operate, including us here. Professional organisations, for instance, have procedures that make it difficult to dismiss staff who are unsuitable. The Government signed up to the working time directive without preparing for the financial and manpower consequences. And for managers, and indeed politicians, targets became more important than care itself. Again, that is our responsibility.

I have already said how strongly I oppose the blame culture, and I am not going to start blaming, but accountability involves responsibility, and far too few people have taken sufficient responsibility in this case. We must reflect and they must reflect on the message that that sends.

Too many inquiries have been left to gather dust on Department shelves, and not just the Department of Health. I and my hon. Friends the Members for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley), for South Staffordshire (Gavin Williamson), Stone (Mr Cash) and Members further afield, all of whom are affected, will not allow this one to gather dust.

14:41

[Valerie Vaz (Walsall South) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) and to pay tribute to him for the dignified way in which he has represented his constituency during the Francis report.

I begin by thanking the Backbench Business Committee for securing this important debate. The NHS in England has a budget of £108 billion and employs 1.35 million people, with just under half of them clinically qualified, so it is right that accountability is at the centre of the NHS, for the people who work there, those who use it and those who fund it. I am sure that all my hon. Friends who have spoken and will be speaking in this debate do not see it as a chance to score political points or as background noise to denigrate an institution that was set up with the simple promise that is delivered every single day—that health care is free to everyone, irrespective of their ability to pay or of pre-existing conditions. It still operates as a service in which people are not judged on their illness but provided with a service.

I know that the debate is taking place against the background of the Francis report, but I wish to point hon. Members to a book that is about to come out—it is by Roger Taylor and called “God bless the NHS”. It was serialised in The Guardian last weekend. Roger Taylor says in the book:

“Paul Woodmansey was a senior doctor at Stafford throughout the period that things went wrong; He is mentioned by a number of patients for whom his department provided a haven of professional high quality care while standards in other wards collapsed.”

Let us not forget then that, even when a light is shone in a corner of the NHS where it is found to have failed the very people it was meant to help, there are areas of good practice.

Let us look at the background of this debate on accountability.

[Jeremy Lefroy]

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Lady, but I would like to point out that the same Dr Woodmansey has been appointed as the new medical director of the Mid Staffs trust Stafford hospital. I welcome that, for the reasons that she has articulated.

[Valerie Vaz]

Let us look at what is going to happen in 18 days’ time when the Health And Social Care Act 2012 comes into force. I do not want to rerun the arguments about the Act, but let us look at what is to come. Let us look at the accountability of the structures under the Act. The NHS Commissioning Board becomes the conduit for everything, including the flow of money, and all the strategic decisions filter down. If anyone cares to look at the Department of Health website and the new structure, they will see a series of concentric circles. Parliament, the Department and the Secretary of State all appear to be in the outer circle, running round in circles. Where is the accountability in that?

I have to tell the Secretary of State—although I am pleased to see him here, this is a Back-Bench business debate—that section 75 regulations were signed off, under a negative resolution, by a Minister who is not accountable to the House. Section 75 says that everything has to be tendered except for technical reasons, or reasons of extreme urgency. That had to be changed to state that contracts can be tendered if the relevant body is satisfied that the services to which the contract related are capable of being provided only by that provider.

Regulation 10 previously said that commissioners may not engage in anti-competitive behaviour; otherwise, Monitor will be after them. Sorry, those are my words. That was changed to say that commissioners must not be anti-competitive unless it is in the interests of patients.

What of the future? I pay tribute to the right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell), who made an excellent speech. I want to draw attention to a report that our Select Committee produced on complaints and litigation in June 2011. I urge the Secretary of State, if he cares to listen, to read that report and consider all the recommendations. Even then, we called for all providers to have a duty of candour to patients. We also said that we found it striking that the Government did not mention complaints in the information revolution consultation and were surprised that they did not see how complaints information could help people see what is going on. My hon. Friend the Member for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper), who is no longer in her place, was right to say that complaints can provide information about what needs to be put right.

Mr Deputy Speaker, I am not sure whether you are aware that the NHS litigation bill has now reached £1.3 billion. I urge the Secretary of State to look into the reasons why that is happening. We have to redress negligence, but there are other reasons why that bill is rising. There are remedies that do not involve money or changes in structures or reorganisations.

[John Pugh]

Does the hon. Lady acknowledge that that is what the NHS Redress Act 2006 was supposed to do? I am genuinely puzzled, and I hope that the Minister will resolve this puzzle for me, about how much of that Act has been formally enacted.

[Valerie Vaz]

I cannot answer that; I am not on the Front Bench.

We all agree that there is no place for gagging clauses if lessons are to be learned about patient care. I agree that the Government have made an important announcement today, but let me remind the Secretary of State that the NHS issued management directions in 1999 and 2004. I am concerned that the NHS still needs reminding about these gagging clauses. We must get away from a system in which whistleblowers are driven out of their jobs on spurious disciplinary issues. At Mid Staffs, doctors and nurses are under disciplinary reviews, but as yet I have not heard anything about whether managers will also be held to account.

Action plans that arise from complaints are a vital part of organisational learning, but they are only of value if they are followed through to implementation, and it was clear from evidence to us in the Select Committee that that did not happen at Mid Staffs.

Publication of complaints data must be obligatory for all care providers, including foundation trusts and private providers with NHS contracts. We must move away, as the hon. Member for Southport (John Pugh) said, from the blame and victim culture and reduce the emphasis on disciplinary procedures. We must put more emphasis on retraining and risk management.

We should enshrine accountability for patients at board level, making boards more diverse, not just comprising the usual suspects. Private providers, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) said, are not subject to FOI; they must be. The register of GPs’ interests must be open to clinical commissioning groups. It should not be up to the public to ask whether GPs have declared their interests. Every decision must be associated with a list of GPs’ interests.

I have spoken to the chief executive of the Royal Orthopaedic hospital, who said that he ensures that doctors, nurses and managers are all on an equal footing, which is an example of good practice. His phrase is that there should be “no gap between board and ward”. He puts his patient groups on the board, every ward gets rolling visits and board members even feed the patients.

In my own way, I have also been accountable and I have published on my website a table of all the complaints my constituents have come to me about so that they can see what sort of things are going on at the Manor hospital. The chief executive of the hospital is undertaking a patient survey and ensures that he looks at all the responses.

I hope that I have outlined some positive aspects as a way of moving forward and that we will continue to have an accountable, transparent and unique NHS that is the best in the world.

14:49

[Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)]

I believe strongly that we must not only look back properly at what happened at Stafford hospital but look forward. We must learn the lessons and we must ensure that what happens in future does not lead to the trauma experienced by the victims and patients in my constituency and those of my hon. Friends the Members for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) and for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley).

This is a debate about accountability and transparency and, as others have said, we also need a debate in Government time on the Floor of the House on the Francis report. On the question of accountability and transparency, I want to start with an issue that has not yet been properly considered in the debate: the role of the Secretary of State under national health legislation. Section 1 of such legislation clearly states the duties of the Secretary of State, and always has done. I was astonished, as I made clear at the time, when the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) left out that part of the question of accountability.

I have been involved in the history of this case. As the Member of Parliament for Stafford from 1984 to 1997 and the Member of Parliament for Stone from 1997 to the present day, I have had many constituents, including Debra Hazeldine, a prominent member of Cure the NHS, who have played an important role in drawing attention to these matters. I have worked closely with them over the whole of this period.

Contrary to what the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle said—I imagine it must have been a serious slip of memory—I wrote letters to him. Ministerial guidelines from 2005, issued by the Cabinet Office, set out in great deal what must happen when a Member of Parliament writes to a Secretary of State. He must receive a personal reply. I do not need to go into the full details now, but only the other day I asked the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General to reaffirm the contents of those guidelines, which are still applicable.

There are only 650 of us, and serious matters can arise from the complaints we make. I am talking not about the complaints procedure of the national health service but about a Member of Parliament going to the Secretary of State to raise a specific question, usually enclosing correspondence from a constituent, and asking for action. In my case, I said that the matters I raised were both serious and urgent and that they required the personal attention of the Secretary of State. I have not the time to go into the detail, but successive Secretaries of State simply did not take the kind of action that I would have expected following those letters.

[Alan Johnson]

This is a fascinating subject and I am willing to have a look at any correspondence between the hon. Gentleman and me when I was Health Secretary. I certainly tried very hard to correspond with all Members of Parliament. Does he accept what Francis said:

“Local MPs received feedback and concerns about the Trust. However, these were largely just passed on to others without follow up or analysis of their cumulative implications…They might wish to consider how to increase their sensitivity with regard to the detection of local problems in healthcare”?

We all have lessons to learn from the Francis report; does he accept that he has lessons to learn, too?

[Mr Cash]

We all have lessons to learn about all matters relating to these questions, but the guidelines also talk about the necessity of chasing and following up in the Department. It is probably a question of the correspondence unit in the Department and the private office. There was a failure and the Francis report made it absolutely clear that the guidelines were not complied with and were not operated effectively. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman, on reflection, will recall that that was what the report said.

I referred to these matters in my witness statement, and Una O’Brien, the permanent secretary at the Department of Health, also made it clear in her evidence that if such letters were received now, they would receive an immediate response, irrespective of whether the hospital was a foundation trust or not. The bottom line is that there was a failure within the Department and by successive Secretaries of State. The shadow Secretary of State acknowledged in his evidence that he looked at these letters. I will not dispute that. However, not only were the matters not dealt with satisfactorily, but I cannot absolve the Secretaries of State from their failure to agree to the 2005 Act inquiry.

I do not need to rehearse the history of the case. I asked not once, not twice, but repeatedly, and I had to urge and persuade the shadow Secretary of State at the time and also—I am glad that, to his great credit, he decided to do so—the present Prime Minister who, as Leader of the Opposition, decided in the light of my representations and no doubt those of others to have the 2005 Act inquiry. Without that we would not be discussing the Francis inquiry—the present one, not the previous one, important though that was—and the others. They were Government inquiries, but they did not do the job in the way the present inquiry did.

[Andy Burnham]

I am listening carefully to what the hon. Gentleman is saying. It is not strictly true to say that that was a Government inquiry. I brought in Robert Francis—will he acknowledge that?—in July 2009 to conduct an independent inquiry. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) said, in presenting his findings Robert Francis said that he felt that more people had come forward because of the nature of that inquiry.

[Mr Cash]

I will let the matter rest at that point for the present purpose.

I move on to the next question of accountability, with respect to Sir David Nicholson. I referred to Sir David in a number of debates way back as far as 2009. I also referred to him in my evidence to the Health Committee, in my witness statement and in correspondence with the Francis inquiry. In my judgment, for the reasons that I have already given, there was a systems failure with respect to this whole terrible tragedy, not only in relation to Mid Staffordshire, but more generally.

We need to turn a new page. I am not saying that Sir David should receive a P45 now. What I am saying is that, sooner rather than later, it is essential that he departs his post. I disagree with the Secretary of State and therefore also, I admit, with the Prime Minister on this matter, and so do many others. Accountability must mean what it says, and in this context it means carrying the can. The whole saga took place on Sir David’s watch, even though he was not at West Midlands for more than a certain time, and the problems that have arisen carry with them issues of accountability.

I acknowledge that Robert Francis referred to scapegoats. It is not, as has been said before and I repeat, a question of blaming scapegoats. It is a question of responsibility and where it lies at the time. In my judgment it did not lie only with the Secretaries of State of the time. In fairness, they have apologised.

I conclude with a statement made by David Nicholson at a conference that took place a few months ago. He made it clear in that statement that he took personal responsibility for what had happened. It is very important that we recognise that he has apologised and that he has made a statement that is clearly an admission that he lost the plot when, as he put it, ward 10 in Mid Staffs was under severe stress. That is the problem and I believe he has to go.

14:58

[Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) on securing this debate. It is with great regret that I continue to speak about issues of abuse and neglect in our national health service. As of now, I have personally received more than 2,000 e-mails and letters. The letters continue to come every day; I want to mention just a few. All who have sent them want their stories to be heard.

The first letter says:

“My mother died in August this year”—

that is, last year.

“I still feel so angry about her treatment. She caught a hospital-acquired infection that certainly contributed to her untimely death. The lack of care and compassion that I saw horrified me. Oh yes, the boxes were all ticked. Water jug, food, medication. And all left out of reach. A nappy put on her because they couldn’t be bothered to answer her calls for assistance to the toilet. A proud and dignified mother left to sit in her own vomit. I haven’t put my complaints in writing to the hospital, as it’s not going to change anything. But maybe writing to you will help. I need my voice to be heard.”

The second letter says:

“Our Dad died in January last year. His death was quite unexpected by us as he was an active, cheerful pensioner, who went into hospital in October 2012 to have a knee operation. Unfortunately, whilst in there, his condition deteriorated, he also acquired hospital-acquired pneumonia and died. Throughout his stay in hospital his family visited him regularly and our experiences were very similar to yours. We found it very difficult to find any staff to talk to or to help him and our Dad told us about all kinds of mistreatment, neglect and mistakes that he was having to endure. Unfortunately, although normally a strong character, he also became afraid of some of the staff, who appeared to be bullying him, but he was absolutely adamant that he did not want us to mention any of his mistreatment to anyone as he was convinced that, once we left, these staff would then treat him even more badly. So we found ourselves in an impossible position, watching our Dad deteriorate before us—he had stopped eating—and hearing shocking accounts of his ‘care’ where he refused to give us any names, and yet feeling quite powerless and unable to speak to anyone about this.

Of course, at this stage, we did not know that he was going to die and we were just counting the days till we could get him out of there, but that never happened in the end.”

I have a third case:

“My memories of my father’s treatment in hospital are still so raw. He, like so many others who have suffered under the ‘care’ of NHS staff, was a man who had shown such bravery in the war (he was a veterinary officer in the Chindits in Burma, behind the Japanese lines) and in his life after, he was a true gentleman and would do anything for others, and he would not complain. He had faced death many times and through his bravery had survived against all odds, but in the end his death was to be hastened because of hospital-acquired infections, and from care bordering on neglect. Tragically he died sad and utterly disillusioned. He simply could not believe that medical staff, including consultants, could treat him and others as they did. He had placed utmost trust in them, and most of them could not care less. He looked at me one day, with utter anguish and despair in his face, and in great pain, and said, ‘Oh Annie, I would never have treated any of my animals in this way.’”

The next letter says:

“My husband of 84 underwent extensive tests to determine the reason for his illness, which didn’t manifest itself until the pancreatic cancer which had remained undiagnosed spread to his bladder. During all this time my main concern was the lack of nursing care.

He had been shunted into a side room on his own for being ‘difficult’ and as far as I could see was simply ignored. On one visit I found him lying in his own excrement while the staff were gathered gossiping round the nurses’ station. All my requests to see a doctor were fobbed off, until one doctor mentioned casually in passing that a lump had been found on my husband’s bladder. No attempt was ever made to discuss his diagnosis with me.”

I have some shorter examples:

“I went to the nursing station on one occasion to see the entire Team bidding at the end of an eBay auction. I was kept waiting, ignored, until it was ended!”;

“first time in hospital mother had 2 broken wrists. No one would feed her when meals were delivered, despite the fact that she had 2 arms strapped up in the air! My aunt had to travel over 2 hours by bus every day just to ensure she was fed”;

“When visiting my wife… after an operation to mend her broken hip, I asked a nurse for help as she was being very, very sick. She announced ‘I am a graduate, I don’t do sick’, and left me to deal with the situation”.

As I said, I have received many letters. I have tried to acknowledge each one and respond, although obviously I cannot do so in detail. They keep coming. It is not something that pertains only in England; the same is true in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. I have received similar letters for all parts of the United Kingdom.

15:05

[Mr Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase) (Con)]

May I thank the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) and say how sobering it was to listen to those stories? I join my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) in paying tribute to the families and loved ones of patients from Stafford and Cannock who had such appalling care and praise them for their strength in telling their stories. My hon. Friend and I will fight against any serious downgrading of Stafford hospital and, more importantly, from my perspective, any possible closure of Cannock hospital, which is managed by the same trust. I note that the Staffordshire Newsletter today launched its “Support Stafford Hospital” campaign, which I am sure we will both be supporting.

Today’s motion calls for accountability and transparency in the NHS. In relation to Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust, there are three areas that most need accountability and transparency: the granting of foundation trust status in 2009; the opposition to the public inquiry into what went on; and the “targets at all costs” culture. I will deal with each in turn.

We have the indignity and embarrassment of Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust being abolished by Monitor only five years after being granted that status. I want Members to think about that for a second. Only five years ago it was considered so outstanding and such an exemplar of compassionate care and sound finances that the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) awarded it foundation trust status on 1 February 2008.

[Andy Burnham]

May I just correct the hon. Gentleman? I was not a Minister in the Department of Health on 1 February 2008. Furthermore, the awarding of foundation trust status was the responsibility of Monitor, not Ministers in the Department.

[Mr Burley]

I believe that the right hon. Gentleman’s second point is incorrect; as I understand it, the Secretary of State—I accept that that was the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson)—signs off the awarding of foundation trust status. We know that he admitted to the public inquiry that he looked at just four lines of civil service evidence about foundation trust status before signing it off. Is that good enough for a Secretary of State? Why did he not look at it in more detail? Was he not really bothered? I think that was a dereliction of his duty to ensure public health in Staffordshire and that he should have the decency to apologise to the people in the Public Gallery who have come here today from my constituency and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Stafford.

Alternatively, was the foundation trust status signed off because of the culture of targets at any cost under the previous Government? Was organisational form, whatever it means, more important than patient care? We know locally that they wanted to prove that their foundation trust policy was a success, and that took priority over what it really meant for patients and their care. Members do not have to listen only to me on that point. Here is what a Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust non-executive said just this week in a public meeting in Rugeley in my constituency:

“Our problems started when they made 200 nurses redundant in 2008 to achieve an acceptable financial footing for Foundation status, but care standards slipped thereafter and by 2009 they had a £2m deficit.”

Everyone knows that huge pressure was put on David Nicholson by his political masters to have a foundation trust in the west midlands, and poor little Mid Staffordshire was the one that was forced through. In the interests of the accountability and transparency that the motion calls for, I want to hear an apology from those who forced through foundation trust status at a time when people were dying from appalling care and the trust was going bankrupt.

This is not just about politicians. If anybody is in any doubt about how ingrained the targets culture had become, let me quote from an old press release from Mid Staffordshire trust that I found, dated 3 October 2002. It has been taken off its website but is still findable if one looks around on the internet. It says, under the heading, “Babies’ Service of Remembrance”:

“A short service of Remembrance for those whose babies have died in the past few years is being held in the Pilgrim Chapel at Stafford General Hospital.”

Just seven days later, under the heading, “Good News from Mid Staffordshire General Hospitals NHS Trust”, it said that David O’Neill, the chief executive, was

“delighted to announce that the Trust has been short-listed to the last three for the National Partnership Industry Award for our Bed Management System”.

This culture is absolutely astonishing, and it simply has to change.

We have now had the public inquiry and Robert Francis has laid out in full gory detail the horrendous failings at Stafford hospital. One might have thought, given what went wrong, that there would have been cross-party support for a public inquiry, but not so. I presume that Labour Members now support the findings of the Francis inquiry. There were certainly many Labour MPs at the all-party health group meeting with Robert Francis on Tuesday, but I want to know how many of them were among the 260 Labour MPs who voted against a Commons motion calling for a public inquiry on 18 May 2009. [Interruption.] These might be uncomfortable facts for the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle, but let me point out that Labour Members ignored 81 requests for a full public inquiry into Mid Staffs between January 2009 and May 2010. They received 20 letters from MPs, 36 letters from members of the public and 25 letters from organisations. They ignored the families who protested outside the Department of Health for a public inquiry, including people from Cure the NHS.

The right hon. Member for Leigh, as he has said today, rejected a full public inquiry on the grounds that it would “distract the management”. He is welcome to intervene to tell me whether he now accepts that that judgment was wrong.

[Andy Burnham]

Will the hon. Gentleman acknowledge that I asked Robert Francis to conduct two independent inquiries into what happened? It is not the case that I was not doing anything. I made that judgment because I wanted to get to the truth of what happened while not overburdening the hospital with the job of getting better. I tried to strike that balance, and that is why I reached the judgment that I did.

[Mr Burley]

I will accept, as will, I think, everyone in this House, that the right hon. Gentleman has refused to answer the question again. He will not say whether that judgment was a mistake, and until he does so we cannot take what he says seriously.

The then Health Secretary, the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle, joined in the refusal to have a full public inquiry. He said to The Birmingham Post on 19 March 2009,

“I really don’t think with the greatest respect that a public inquiry is going to take us any further forward”.

Will he intervene to tell me whether he will be writing to The Birmingham Post to tell people whether it has taken us any further forward? He can scowl across the Chamber, but I am afraid that that is no answer.

In the interests of accountability and transparency, we need to know why the Labour Government opposed a full public inquiry into Mid Staffordshire. Why were they so afraid of finding out the truth of what went on? Is it really so important to protect the reputation of the NHS as an institution rather than to protect the patients whom it serves and who ultimately pay for it?

There are now abounding claims and counter-claims about Stafford and Cannock hospitals as a result of the indignity of having our foundation trust abolished. One would have thought that having forced through foundation trust status and opposed a public inquiry, Labour locally would have some contrition, but sadly not. The Labour leader of my local council and Labour’s prospective parliamentary candidate for Cannock Chase are now teaming up to

“fight plans they feel are aimed at privatising Cannock hospital.”

The leader of the council said that he was launching a petition against being

“victims of Tory privatisation plans”.

There are no plans in the Monitor report to privatise Cannock hospital, so I want to know where the local Labour party is getting its information from. In fact, as a result of the FT status, private providers are already operating in Cannock hospital. I note that there were no protests from Labour councillors when private health facilities were introduced into Cannock hospital. Again in the interests of accountability and transparency in the NHS, I call on Labour Front Benchers to stop their parliamentary candidates and council leaders scaremongering among local people for political ends. They cannot fight privatisation if there are no plans to privatise anything. They cannot start a petition to save Cannock Chase hospital if the Monitor report suggests making it a centre of excellence for orthopaedic elective surgery in the west midlands. They cannot oppose a public inquiry and then welcome all of its findings. They cannot force through foundation trust status for its own sake rather than for what it will achieve for patients; and if someone does force it through and it has the reverse, perverse effect of causing appalling care, unnecessary deaths and the bankrupting of the trust and its abolishment just five years later, they should be man enough to apologise.

I agree that we need to be more accountable and transparent. That starts from the top with Secretaries of State and goes down to the bottom to the local council leaders and their parliamentary candidates.

15:15

[Barbara Keeley (Worsley and Eccles South) (Lab)]

I was appalled to read in the Francis report on the Mid Staffs inquiry the stories of the unnecessary suffering of hundreds of people and, indeed, to hear the examples given by my right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) in this debate. Those Mid Staffs patients were let down and there was a lack of care, compassion, humanity and leadership. The most basic standards of care were not observed and fundamental rights to dignity were not respected.

Our Health Committee has taken evidence from Robert Francis, who has said that there was a failure of the NHS system

“at every level to detect and take the action patients and the public were entitled to expect.”

He has summarised his own recommendations as: fundamental and easily understood standards; openness, transparency and candour; accountability to patients and the public; enhanced training for nurses and leaders; and ever-improving measures of performance.

In the short time available, I want to focus on two areas: first, accountability or, indeed, the lack of it in our NHS structures, and secondly—this has already been touched on—the question of what is good practice on patient safety.

The Health Committee is increasingly seeing examples of a gap in accountability in the restructured NHS and I will touch on one small example that we heard this week. We had a session with senior Department of Health staff—the director of mental health, the national clinical director of mental health and the deputy director of secure mental health services—who are responsible for advising Ministers on mental health strategy, for devising mental health legislation and for clinical leadership on mental health. They did not know that patient groups were reporting cuts to community mental health services or that they lacked access to therapeutic services, with very long waits.

[Alison McGovern (Wirral South) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that scrutiny to make sure that the dignity of mental health patients is protected is of utmost importance?

[Barbara Keeley]

Indeed. It is disturbing that the people responsible for advising Ministers on legislation are not aware of what is going on. In fact, they started by trying to tell me that they thought that community services were still expanding, as they had been up to 2010. They did not have a picture of the services. Indeed, they told us that there was no routine collection of waiting times for mental health services and they did not have data on readmissions. They did not even seem to understand the trends involved in those important issues.

The exchange left me feeling very concerned about accountability in our new NHS structures. If staff at the most senior levels of the Department of Health who are responsible for strategy and legislation have no idea what is going on in health services across the country, that is serious. The major restructuring of the NHS seems to us—this has been mentioned by fellow members of the Health Committee—to represent a decline in accountability.

We need to learn from good practice to improve patient safety, which has been touched on by my hon. Friends the Members for West Lancashire (Rosie Cooper) and for Walsall South (Valerie Vaz). A major review is taking place of the 14 hospitals with the worst mortality rates. In recent Health questions, I told the Under-Secretary of State for Health, the hon. Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich (Dr Poulter) that good practice in hospitals with low mortality rates should be investigated alongside the review of high mortality rates and poor practice in the worst-performing 14 hospitals. He did not take that point on board, so I will try again today.

I want to talk about what has been achieved at my constituency’s local hospital trust, Salford Royal NHS Foundation Trust. I visited the hospital recently in the wake of the Francis report and was impressed to hear what it has achieved over the past five or six years. It already seemed to have in place many of Robert Francis’s recommended actions, which I touched on earlier. Salford Royal has taken action on nurse staffing ratios, which my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) touched on; reducing MRSA infection and pressure sores; the transparency of patient information; and involving clinical staff in quality improvement.

[Mr Jeremy Hunt]

I completely agree with the approach that the hon. Lady is taking. One of the jobs of the new chief inspector of hospitals will be to identify the outstanding hospitals, the safest hospitals and the hospitals with the best compassionate care, so that other hospitals can learn to do the same things.

[Barbara Keeley]

That is very good. I hope that the Secretary of State will make that point to the Under-Secretary of State for Health, the hon. Member for Central Suffolk and North Ipswich, because he did not seem to appreciate it when I made it to him in Health questions.

Let me touch on what other hospitals might find if they start looking at the excellent practices at Salford Royal. I do not underestimate the importance of the terrible examples that we have heard about, but at the same time, my trust has had a quality improvement strategy since 2008, with specific projects that are aimed at reducing falls, unexpected cardiac arrests, surgical site infections, sepsis and other harms. Because harm tends to be caused to patients much more over the weekend—we have seen many examples of that in the cases that we have looked at—the trust has moved back to seven-day working in an attempt to achieve the same standard of care on the weekend and overnight as people receive on a weekday during working hours.

I believe that having the right nurse staffing ratios is vital to patient safety, but that issue keeps being glossed over by NHS leaders and Ministers. I have asked questions about it repeatedly in this House. Salford Royal uses a safe staffing tool to ensure that it works to safe staffing levels. There are minimum staffing requirements throughout the hospital and incident reports are completed if the ratios are not met. Each division reviews its staffing establishment every day and escalates concerns if the numbers fall below the minimum safe level. Salford Royal is a mentor site for nurse rounding which, as we have heard, means that nurses go round their patients each hour to ensure that their needs are being met.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Cynon Valley gave examples that showed the impact of hospital-acquired infections. All the work that is done to reduce MRSA and other infections is crucial. As in the other examples of flattened hierarchies that we have heard about, anyone at Salford Royal can challenge others on issues related to infection control. There is also mandatory training in aseptic non-touch techniques.

Teams design their own quality improvement projects in a clinical quality academy. There has been a specific quality improvement project over the past two years that is aimed at reducing the number of pressure ulcers. Each pressure ulcer is declared, the root causes are analysed and the patients are involved in the investigations. Nurses can monitor the positioning of patients on their hourly rounds and help to turn them if required. Those examples of good patient care can help us to get over the kinds of awful care that have been described today.

My final point is about transparency. Patients and families can check the harm data, because they are shown on a whiteboard at the entrance to every ward. The board records not only how many days it is since the last MRSA infection or pressure ulcer, but provides assessment scores on 13 fundamental nursing standards. Such public reporting to patients and families is important because it aids accountability and helps staff to feel accountable for the standards on their ward. We need that now more than ever.

Unsurprisingly, Salford Royal has achieved the highest rating in the NHS staff satisfaction survey for acute trusts in the NHS. Staff are supported to challenge existing systems and test new ideas to improve standards. I am aware of how much of a contrast that is to what we have heard this afternoon. The NHS is a system in which one area has had a catastrophic failure at all levels of patient safety, while other areas have achieved the highest standards of safety and patient care. We must look at both if we want to understand why that is.

15:24

[Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)]

I want to start by thanking the vast majority of staff in the NHS, who go to work every day motivated to serve their patients and deliver world-class care.

We should not think that we can just return to the halcyon, storm-free days of the 1970s, when NHS care was perfect. Before I started medical school, I worked as a nursing auxiliary, which would now be called a health care assistant, in what was then known as a geriatric hospital. I have no wish to return to the days of vast, mixed wards and a rather authoritarian approach to care. I would far rather the NHS of today than that of the 1970s.

However, the mantra that the NHS is the envy of the world sometimes gets in the way of providing decent feedback and criticism when things go wrong—and after listening to the words of the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), who could say that things do not go wrong? The failures at Mid Staffs, and the fact that more than 1,000 people died in a single hospital, are truly shocking. Robert Francis told the Health Committee that he had spent three years of his life “listening in horror”—how shocking! It is hard to imagine any other institution or organisation where death on that scale would not have led to prosecutions, yet too often in the NHS it is not prosecutions that follow but promotions, just as it was in this case.

It has, unfortunately, become something of a heresy to criticise the NHS, and my comments are not to be interpreted as criticising the vast majority of staff, but rather as a means of considering how we can help those staff and their patients. It is vital that NHS staff are free and feel safe to raise concerns. This week, at a meeting in the House that I was chairing, Robert Francis spoke about “complaints being a gift”, but that is not the experience of staff or patients within the NHS.

The Health Committee conducted an inquiry into complaints and litigation in the NHS that reported in June 2011, and I wish to read from the chilling evidence that we heard from Nicola Monte. She spoke of her experience of being barrier-nursed in Stafford, and said that a nurse came into her room and berated her saying, “I have been off sick because of you complaining about me. Do you realise the suffering you have caused me?” Too often, staff end up feeling that they are victims because—as they know—they are often scapegoated for what are system failures, often by management. That runs throughout the NHS; the response to complaints is defensive and dismissive and that must change if we are to implement what Robert Francis rightly recommends as a new culture change of openness, transparency and candour within the NHS.

I hope, however, that no one will think that introducing a statutory duty of candour can be a single approach. That will not work without a culture change that supports and welcomes complaints as a “gift” to identify problems and improve care. I hope the Government will implement in full the recommendations made by Robert Francis so that complainants are regarded not as the problem but as part of the solution.

I particularly welcome the Secretary of State’s announcement that gagging clauses are to be outlawed with immediate effect throughout the NHS but—I hope he will not mind my saying this—that must extend to the top of the system. Would the Secretary of State feel it appropriate for David Nicholson’s secretary to have the following clause in his or her contract:

“That they should avoid associating themselves with recommendations critical or embarrassing to the NHS commissioning board”?

I think we would find that wholly unacceptable, yet, if I may refer Members to the ministerial code of conduct, the Secretary of State’s Parliamentary Private Secretary, who is not a member of the Government, has exactly that clause within his contract. That is something we have to change because the culture of the NHS must extend from the Department of Health to the nursing auxiliary—or health care assistant—at the bedside, and to patients so that they and those around them feel safe and able to raise complaints.

[Mr Cash]

Is my hon. Friend aware that Public Concern at Work, to which I referred in my witness statement on Stafford hospital, has played a big role in highlighting whistleblowing and has set up a commission to look at that issue? The outlawing of gagging clauses should apply not only on severance, but also—emphatically—when people are in post so that they can be properly protected when acting in the public interest.

[Dr Wollaston]

I absolutely agree. This is about starting to identify the culture and values of the people we employ in the NHS, and making it clear that not only does everyone in the NHS have a duty to bring forward concerns, but that those concerns will be welcomed and acted on. I would like everyone in the NHS to have an individual to whom they can go and feel safe in raising their concerns. I thank my hon. Friend for raising that point.

My hon. Friend the Member for Reading East (Mr Wilson) has told me that he does not feel that he has been gagged, which is great, but there is still an important point of principle: as a PPS, he is not able to speak in this debate. We want everyone, from the very top of the NHS and the Department of Health, right through to the bottom of the system, to feel that they are fully free to raise any concerns they have, wherever they may be.

After the Bristol heart scandal, whistleblower Stephen Bolsin was asked how we could prevent this from ever happening again. He said:

“Never lose sight of the patient.”

His whistleblowing cost him his career. He first raised the alarm in 1989. His work over six years to raise his concerns remains one of the single most important improvements in clinical outcomes in the NHS—that is how important whistleblowers are to our system. Yet the scandals keep happening. Would it not be a tragedy if, five years from now, we were still saying, “We need to put patients at the heart of everything we do in the NHS”? It is time to make that happen.

15:31

[Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab)]

I congratulate the hon. Member for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) on his thoughtful contribution to the debate. We all owe it to the people of Stafford and those round about, all of whom depend on Mid Staffs, to ask the Secretary of State to guarantee that nothing and no one is allowed to use the horrors that occurred as an excuse to close the hospital or to run it down. That would punish the local people, the potential patients, and the good staff at the hospital. I hope he is willing to make whatever organisational changes—extra cash, or new ways of financing parts of the health service—are necessary to make that guarantee to the people in that area.

I started off as Health Secretary fully in favour of transparency. My last job before I became an MP was working for the local government ombudsman. It was my view, and it remains my view, that the best way to deal with anything that has gone wrong is to stand up and say, “Sorry, I got it wrong.” However, there is a problem. We are asking people in the NHS to operate in two different worlds. If something goes wrong in the hospital, the GP’s surgery or the clinic, we say: confess straight away. That is one world—the official world. People then get in their car, drive out of the car park to go home and bump into another car. What happens? Their insurer says, “Whatever you do, don’t accept any responsibility.” We need to recognise the clash of different worlds that people live in.

When the excellent hon. Member for Aldridge-Brownhills (Sir Richard Shepherd) introduced the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998 to protect whistleblowers, I made sure that the Labour Government supported it, and that the provisions covered the national health service. There were those who did not want it to cover the NHS. I am delighted to say that I anticipated that some might want to have disappearance clauses in contracts—gagging clauses—and issued a circular that prohibited them. Any health body that has inserted such a clause is breaking the terms of the circular that was sent out in my name in 1999.

I also established the Commission for Health Improvement. It was intended to monitor and improve standards, and it was the first time in the history of the national health service that such a body had been set up. At that time, there was no machinery in the NHS for identifying good or bad practice, or for promoting good practice more widely and eliminating poor practice. I also required all health boards and chief executives to be responsible for the quality of treatment and care. No such obligation had been placed on them before, and that was a step in the right direction.

The hon. Member for Stafford rightly said that if transparency is to be based on experience and on data, those data have to be fair. We cannot have a situation in which someone who performs regular, straightforward surgery is compared favourably with someone who treats people in desperate circumstances and therefore has a greater chance of the operation or treatment going wrong. Everyone in the medical profession has got something wrong, and some have done so quite a few times.

If we are to have transparency in the provision of services to NHS patients that are paid for by public money, that transparency must apply not only to the NHS providers but to any other franchised provider of services. I know from experience that, when our lot were selling off a GP practice in my constituency, we were told that we could not find out the terms of the contract because it was commercially confidential. If we had been able to see the contract, we might have spotted that it enabled the contractor to leg it if things got difficult, which is what it duly did.

However keen Government Members might be on involving the private sector—I freely admit that I am not, but they are—they must ensure that patients and others are not denied information on the ground of commercial confidentiality. I strongly support the idea of making whistleblowing a duty, and that duty of candour must apply to any private sector provider. We cannot have them hiding away behind their private profit-making efforts. We must also ensure that, when anything goes wrong, the Secretary of State will answer to the House of Commons. We do not want anyone coming along and saying, “It wasn’t me, guv, it was the commissioning board wot got it wrong.” We must make it absolutely certain that our national health service is responsible to us here.

My final point is that I am sick to death of what is happening at the Whittington hospital. In order to qualify for trust status, it is being told to reduce the ratio of nurses to patients, yet it is already one of the five safest hospitals in the country.

15:38

[Stephen Barclay (North East Cambridgeshire) (Con)]

I join other Members in welcoming the Government’s announcement today of a ban on gagging clauses, but is it not surprising that we need such an announcement? The right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) has just told the House that he issued guidance on this issue in 1999, and we also have the Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998 and the 2004 guidance. My right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley) even put these conditions in the NHS constitution, and yet we find that we need an announcement on the matter today. My hon. Friend the Member for Stone (Mr Cash) has been repeatedly assured that there is no problem. I raised the issue in some detail with Sir David Nicholson in the Public Accounts Committee on a number of occasions, and I was constantly told that there was no need for change, so does Sir David agree with today’s announcement? Indeed, is a change being announced? Will the Secretary of State confirm that this announcement covers all payments, including those through judicial mediation, and will it apply retrospectively?

There seems to be a striking uniformity as between both Front-Bench teams when it comes to telling us that Sir David Nicholson is a wonderful manager, yet he did not know about the high mortality figures—even though they have been published in national newspapers since 2001; even though his own staff were logging in to the Dr Foster data; and even though the figures were high when he was the chief executive of the strategic health authority that was responsible for Mid Staffordshire. He did not know about gagging clauses when he was the accounting officer; he did not know about fixing mortality codes, yet they are now subject to police investigation. As he told the Health Select Committee, he did not know about judicial mediation—a flaw in the system, yet he is responsible for system and controls. He did not know about the Gary Walker case.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) says that she has concerns about the US reports, but once again, Sir David seems not to know about them. He did not know about the Royal College of Surgeons 2007 report into Mid Staffs, which raised serious concerns, as my hon. Friend the Member for Stone is well aware, but in respect of which no action was taken. In other areas, too, we should remember that he was not just the accounting officer for the wonderfully successful NHS IT programme, but the senior responsible owner. We are told that he is a great manager, but it is difficult to see the evidence to sustain that claim.

[Mr Cash]

In a conference on 4 October 2012, I understand that Sir David Nicholson said that

“the senior leadership of the NHS and I was part of it in those circumstances”

but “lost the plot”. He continued:

“We lost the reason why we were there. We got so excited about…changes”,

but he went on to acknowledge that

“on ward 10 in Mid Staffordshire Hospital really bad things were happening”.

That is the sort of admission that he had to make in those circumstances. Does my hon. Friend agree that that amounts to admitting responsibility for the system’s failure?

[Stephen Barclay]

I do agree with my hon. Friend, and that does seem at odds with the Government’s welcome commitment to promoting individual accountability. In response to the Robert Francis report, the Prime Minister talked about three fundamental problems with the culture of the NHS. Of course that went beyond one individual.

I am concerned about the timing of the announcement of the appointment of Barbara Hakin, a close ally of Sir David Nicholson. It is important to note that she is innocent of any allegations being made against her, but I understand that she is under investigation at the moment. The timing of the appointment, then, seems strange. I invite my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to intervene to clarify whether he was told of Barbara Hakin’s appointment prior to it being made. If he was not told, does not that say something about the power that Sir David wields within Richmond House?.

A further issue is whether Parliament knows the quantum or scale of the payments made to whistleblowers. I have repeatedly raised this matter over the last two years and was finally given a figure of £15 million paid over three years—silencing quite a lot of people. It now emerges, however, that that is not the whole story, as it does not cover payments such as the one for Gary Walker, which was paid through judicial mediation.

As seen in the NHS manual for accounts, each NHS body or trust is required to compile a register detailing all special payments made, including those through mediation. As I understand it, even the Department of Health does not know how many such payments have been made—and that applies to the Treasury, too. In a response to my parliamentary question this Tuesday, the Minister said:

“Approval has not hitherto been required by the Chancellor or the Secretary of State for Health for special severance payments made as a result of judicial mediation. However, as of 11 March”—

this Monday—

“approval will be required.”—[Official Report, 12 March 2013; Vol. 560, c. 182W.]

The position seems to be moving as of this week. Parliament does not know how much has been paid to whistleblowers, so will the Minister clarify when we will know?

In my Adjournment debate of a week last Monday, my hon. Friend the Member for Bracknell (Dr Lee) asked whether the chief executive of Mid Staffs was subject to a gagging clause. We received a welcome reassurance that we would be given an answer, but when we were on our way to the Chamber for this debate, my hon. Friend told me that he had received none. I hope that the Minister will clarify whether Mr Yeates was subject to a gagging clause.

[Mr Burley]

Is my hon. Friend aware that Mr Yeates left in 2009 with an £80,000 pay-off and a six-figure pension lump sum before moving to a job with a charity called IMPACT Alcohol and Addition Services, based in Shropshire, and that he refused to give oral evidence to the inquiry because of a unique form of post-traumatic stress disorder? Where is his accountability?

[Stephen Barclay]

My hon. Friend is right. Not only did Mr Yeates leave with, I understand, a significant payout, but he went to work for a charity that was in receipt of Department of Health funds. I think that as a matter of urgency we should clarify the terms on which Mr Yeates left the NHS, what Ministers knew, and what senior officials—in particular, David Flory—were aware of at the time of his departure.

I fear that we are in danger of sending a confused message to staff and families of patients in the NHS. On the one hand we say that the culture needs to change, but on the other we say that the people who are responsible for that culture—the people who are paid significant sums to lead it—should stay.

My hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) is absolutely right: there is much in our NHS that we should celebrate and of which we should be proud. However, we do it a disservice if we are not prepared to identify where it is going wrong, and to be transparent about the areas with high mortality and about the existing culture which has a chilling effect on those who are brave enough to speak out. Is it not informative that the one person who spoke out at the Bristol inquiry, and who did so much good, is the one person who has never worked in the NHS again?

I think that the challenge for the House today, and in subsequent weeks, is to ensure that this time it learns the lessons that were clearly not learnt then.

15:47

[Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab)]

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for allowing me to speak in this important debate. I congratulate all those who made it possible.

In the light of the tragedies at Mid Staffordshire and Winterbourne View, it is clear that some of the mechanisms for ensuring accountability and transparency in the NHS must be reviewed. Safeguards need to be put in place to make our NHS more accountable. That means listening to the concerns of patients, heeding the advice of NHS staff, and ensuring that whistleblowers are correctly protected.

Patients have always been, and always should be, at the centre of the NHS. It is true, of course, that the discoveries made at Mid Staffordshire do not represent the typical experiences of NHS patients, and that nurses and doctors deliver great care for patients every day, but it should not be possible for the failings of Mid Staffordshire to be replicated. If such failures are to be prevented in future, patients’ voices must be heard, and patients must receive clear assistance and information about their treatment.

Figures from the national cancer patient experience survey show that only 64% of patients felt they were able to discuss their concerns and fears with staff in the hospital, and that just over 50% were given information about the financial support to which they were entitled. While the survey goes a long way towards ensuring that there is more transparency, some of those figures are worrying. A large proportion of cancer patients still feel that they are not given sufficient information, or that they are unable to relay their concerns to those who are caring for them.

We welcome the creation of bodies designed to establish greater accountability to patients and the public by giving them a stronger voice in the Health and Social Care Act 2012. However, many councils across the country are still unsure whether they will have a running local HealthWatch in coming months, or have not even signed contracts with organisations to run it. These bodies are crucial in providing accountability for NHS patients; without them, the public does not have a voice.

One of the main reasons for the failings at Mid Staffs is the existence of a culture of covering up mistakes. Those who tried to speak out were bullied, hassled and silenced. It is crucial that NHS staff are allowed to voice their opinions without fear of unjust repercussions.

The previous Labour Government made huge inroads in helping NHS staff raise their concerns and in protecting their rights. These have, however, not been sufficient. I also have to commend the Secretary of State’s timely decision to ban gagging clauses in severance agreements. However, should not the Government be making it easier for NHS staff to voice their concerns while they are still in employment? We have seen many examples of consultants, doctors, nurses and other staff who spoke out about the failings of Mid Staffs and who were persecuted and struck off for doing so, and about NHS staff who felt unsupported and bullied by their supervisors to hide their concerns.

I must mention the case of Dr Narinder Kapur, one of Britain’s leading neuropsychologists and now campaigner for fairer treatment for whistleblowers. Out of his moral and ethical responsibility as a doctor, Dr Kapur alerted the NHS of certain failures he observed within his department, such as under-qualified, unsupervised staff treating patients and putting them at risk. His dismissal by the Cambridge University Hospitals NHS Foundation Trust was ruled unfair, but he still was not reinstated. This man, who was one of the best neuropsychologists in the country and was trying to help his patients and make his hospital a better place, was left penniless and lost his home.

The Government need to do more to ensure that NHS staff who blow the whistle on unethical practices do not receive the same treatment as Dr Kapur, and are protected from such persecution. Hard-working consultants, doctors, nurses and other staff who want to make the NHS a better place should not fear for their jobs and should not be bullied by their supervisors. Patients should be assured that they have recourse for complaints and that their voices will be heard. What will the Government do to protect patients and change this culture of covering up and bullying, to ensure that we do not have another Mid Staffs and to make the NHS more transparent?

15:53

[Steve Baker (Wycombe) (Con)]

My constituent Edward Maitland was a frail man who could not eat solid food following tongue surgery. He was admitted to Wycombe hospital from his warden-controlled accommodation suffering from dehydration, shortness of breath and weight loss, things from which he should have recovered. His son, a paramedic, clearly explained on his father’s admission that Mr Maitland could not eat solid food and he also provided liquids. About three weeks later Edward Maitland had died from aspiration pneumonia. At the post-mortem, Weetabix was found in his lungs.

Of course, the investigation was taken extremely seriously and the documentation is, up to a point, very professional. Under “root cause”, it states:

“The investigation found that there is no evidence to support robust communication between nursing and medical staff…No SBAR”—

situation, background, assessment and recommendations—

“documentation was used in EMC or in handover to Ward 6B this would have highlighted the patient’s nutritional needs.”

It proceeds to make some “recommendations”, but I want to highlight the “lessons learned”:

“To care for all patients with a holistic approach and the multi-disciplinary team must focus on all health concerns.

Better communications between all staff members, this should be ongoing and involve all the different professionals who may need to collaborate the care delivery plan. This collaboration and communication should involve the patient, family and the healthcare staff.”

Unfortunately, that is bread-and-butter, typical stuff—and managerial gibberish.

What I learned is that two words would have saved the life of Edward Maitland: “no solids”, written on the records at the end of his bed, on his wristband, and above his bed. The situation in his case is very simple. A man died who ought not to have died. He should not have died in these circumstances.

I have the hard task of saying, therefore, that I look to the courts, and the Francis report helps me. Recommendation 13 of the report, on fundamental standards, refers to:

“Fundamental standards of minimum quality and safety, where non-compliance should not be tolerated. Failures leading to death or serious harm should remain offences for which prosecutions can be brought against organisations.”

Elsewhere, the report discusses at some length—I do not have time to go into detail—a regulatory gap in relation to the Health and Safety Executive:

“It should be recognised that there are cases which are so serious that criminal sanction is required, even where the facts fall short of establishing a charge of individual or corporate manslaughter. The argument that the existence of a criminal sanction inhibits candour and cooperation is not persuasive. Such sanctions have not prevented improvements in other fields of activity.”

I took legal advice. I approached a retired circuit judge in my constituency, who in turn approached a firm of lawyers. I am most grateful for the guidance of Kate McMahon, of Edmonds Marshall McMahon, who has provided me with considerable free legal advice in relation to this case. The firm specialises in private criminal prosecutions. She has explained that, at least at the preliminary stage, there may be a corporate manslaughter case to answer, and liability for gross negligence manslaughter may well be attributable to one or more employees of the hospital.

I do not want people to be prosecuted unnecessarily, or to see taxpayers’ money wasted, but I do want accountability, and I believe that in the end the courts provide that crucial accountability. Edward Maitland’s son Gary now has this advice, and I have left it to him to decide whether to approach the police. I have briefed the police superintendent in Wycombe on the circumstances. I believe that the courts should be the ultimate way of sanctioning the NHS. Francis agrees, and I hope he will provide a policy in this area.

There should be more democratic control. I am delighted—

[Frank Dobson]

Does the hon. Gentleman not agree that one characteristic of involving lawyers is that there is a lot of money around, and it goes to them? Would it not be better spent trying to ensure that performance standards are enhanced, rather than employing lawyers to have a go at the people who got it wrong?

[Steve Baker]

Of course I would rather that the money was spent on standards and performance and not on prosecutions, because I would rather the problems did not occur. I do not wish to lecture the right hon. Gentleman, and I feel sure he did not quite mean it this way, but if we do not intend to apply the law of corporate and individual gross negligence manslaughter, let us repeal it, or amend it so that it does not apply to the NHS. I have to say to the right hon. Gentleman that it does apply to the NHS and that in certain cases, as Francis has said, things are so bad it should be applied.

I ask the Government to look at democratic control. I am delighted that the Secretary of State is reforming the Care Quality Commission, but how can we make sure that there is more direct accountability, perhaps to the health and well-being boards, and the overview and scrutiny committees? How can we give them the power to sanction or perhaps even, through due process, dismiss a board or a chief executive?

I think here of Paul Ryan, a man with vascular disease who had lost one leg already when he found himself sick. He had four days of GP visits and spent nine hours in accident and emergency on a Friday. He was then sent home, having had an MRI scan, after which he was expecting to lose his leg on the Monday. He was told to expect a phone call, but no phone call came. The Ryans eventually called 999 and were told that it was better to get a GP. The GP arrived and called an ambulance. It took two hours for that to arrive and Paul Ryan died in the ambulance with his wife on the way to hospital.

[Mr Cash]

Does my hon. Friend agree that accountability does reside also with the Secretary of State, as set out in the national health service legislation? That is essential in relation to our functions in this House and those of this Secretary of State and former Secretaries of State.

[Steve Baker]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his point, although it has been examined at length, so I do not want to go down that rabbit hole with him—I hope he will forgive me.

The post-mortem on Mr Ryan indicated that he probably would have suffered the same fate in any event, but the system let the Ryans down—Mrs Lyn Ryan made that point to me and to the local newspaper. Unfortunately, the case plays right into the fears of the public in Wycombe, because we lost our accident and emergency facility in 2005 and we recently lost our emergency medical centre. We have just had two similar repeat occurrences of the minor injuries unit failing to refer people across the car park into the excellent cardiology and stroke units. We have seen an enormous range of little problems, for example, an 85-year-old lady with dementia was sent home in a taxi at 2 am in just her hospital gown. This cannot go on, and the public’s concerns are justified. The trust is being investigated by Sir Bruce Keogh and although I have heard good reasons why its mortality levels are justified—they relate to running hospice care, in particular—this must be taken as an opportunity to improve things.

Finally, I wish to make a point on transparency. Yesterday, I spoke to Anne Eden, the chief executive of the trust. I am not going to put on the record the entire content of the conversation, but when I told her that I intended to raise this issue of corporate manslaughter on the radio this morning, I was told, in terms, “To protect the reputation of the Buckinghamshire trust, legal action would be sought.” This is a matter of public interest being raised by a Member of Parliament in good faith, but I have had to—[Interruption.] To be fair to her, she was talking about the radio. But I have had to rely on privilege to protect myself from being sued on this matter. It is not acceptable that such a matter should have to come to a Member of Parliament, simply to rely on privilege. The situation reinforces something I have experienced again and again since becoming an MP: second-hand rumours and half-truths about the state of health care in Buckinghamshire. I have encountered: people stymied; people thinking it is helpful to give half a rumour to a friend to repeat to me so that I can know how bad things are; and people’s frustration at not being able to do anything. I know that Buckinghamshire Healthcare NHS Trust is obviously close to your heart, Mr Speaker. I know that it expects to satisfy Sir Bruce Keogh, but it is really time for proper accountability and that must include the courts.

16:03

[Mr Andy Slaughter (Hammersmith) (Lab)]

Two NHS stories were leading the news this morning, both of which are relevant to the subject of this debate. The hon. Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay) and my hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr Sharma) have talked about the important issue of whistleblowers. I want to talk about the other subject, which is the conflicted interests of clinical commissioning group members.

All hon. Members should be grateful for the British Medical Journal report that was the basis of this morning’s new stories. In case anyone has not seen it, let me read the headline points. It states:

“More than a third of GPs on the boards of the new clinical commissioning groups (CCGs) in England have a conflict of interest resulting from directorships or shares held in private companies”.

It continues:

“conflicts of interest are rife on CCG governing bodies, with 426 (36%) of the 1179 GPs in executive positions having a financial interest in a for-profit private provider beyond their own general practice—a provider from which their CCG could potentially commission services.

The interests range from senior directorships in local for-profit firms set up to provide services such as diagnostics, minor surgery, out of hours GP services, and pharmacy to shareholdings in large private sector health firms that provide care in conjunction with local doctors, such as Harmoni and Circle Health.

In some cases most of the GPs on the CCG governing body have financial interests in the same private healthcare provider.”

Yet the cheerleader for the privatisation, Dr Michael Dixon of NHS Alliance says:

“The priority is to move services out of hospital and into primary care. The reason this hasn’t happened to date is because of blocks in the system. It’s more important to remove those blocks than be preoccupied with conflicts of interest.”

I say that the British Medical Journal has done a good job, but it has only just scratched the surface. I shall refer to my own experience of trying to get to the bottom of this matter in north-west London.

On 10 November an article by the social affairs editor of The Guardian began:

“Five family doctors have this week become millionaires from the sale of their NHS-funded firm to one of the country’s biggest private healthcare companies in a deal that reveals how physicians can potentially profit from government policy in the new NHS.”

It went through the individual shareholdings of those doctors who had sold out to Care UK and it continued:

“Another winner seems to be NHS reform champion Ian Goodman. The north-west London GP chairs the Hillingdon clinical commissioning group and was also a board director of Harmoni. He could make as much as £2.6 million.”

[John McDonnell (Hayes and Harlington) (Lab)]

This Dr Goodman chairs my local CCG and tried to force Hillingdon hospital to put £13 million of operations out to tender, which would have destabilised the whole hospital. I pay tribute to the Treasurer of Her Majesty’s Household, the right hon. Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip (Mr Randall) and the Parliamentary Secretary, Cabinet Office, the hon. Member for Ruislip, Northwood and Pinner (Mr Hurd), who joined me in preventing that from happening. It would have meant Hillingdon hospital being financially destabilised in the long term.

[Mr Slaughter]

I am grateful for that. I did a company profile for Harmoni. It revealed that, although he might have sold his shares for that amount of money, Dr Goodman is still listed as head of clinical spine. A series of press articles deals with the failings of Harmoni—failures that have caused deaths through under-staffing or poor-quality staffing—and why it is under investigation.

Let me return in the time I have available to my attempts to get to the bottom of the matter. The same day as I read the article in The Guardian, I wrote a short letter to the chief executive of the NHS in north-west London. I said:

“I attach the front page article from today’s Guardian, which you may have seen, regarding the sale of out of hours GP service provider Harmoni to Care UK. The article states that a number of GPs will make substantial sums from the sale.

I note that four of the CCG chairs in NW London declare shareholding or directorship in Harmoni, as does your Medical Director. It would be helpful to know if they are beneficiaries of the sale and by what amount.”

I then asked for assurances as to the future.

A month later I received a non-reply reply, the most relevant sentence of which was:

“Any member who declares an interest in a meeting is expected to take no part in discussions and step out of the meeting.”

I wrote back a much longer reply, in which I pointed out that the chair of the Royal College of General Practitioners had said:

“it is not about excluding yourself from the room whenever there is a discussion; it is about how it will drive your decision-making overall”.

I pointed out that, as a consequence of hospital closures in north-west London, there had been a shift in funding from hospital to primary care, a greater involvement of private companies in the primary care sector, and an opportunity for those companies to increase their profits by cutting back on the level of service offered.

I principally raised the fact that the information that should be provided is not provided on declaration of interest forms, especially the scope and value of any interest. I listed doctor by doctor and CCG chair by CCG chair what those interests were and how they were not adequately declared. I dealt with seven out of the nine CCG chairs and the medical director. That was in a letter on 20 December.

I received a reply on 3 February which said:

“The Cluster does not hold this data.”

So three months on from my original inquiry, I am none the wiser in relation to these matters.

I advise any hon. Member to look at their CCG declarations of interest online—not Hillingdon, because it does not publish them online. I use Hammersmith and Fulham as an example here. The husband of one member is a partner of Drivers Jonas Deloitte. The first thing I found on the website of Drivers Jonas Deloitte was that it had been appointed to sell the Kent and Sussex hospital in Royal Tunbridge Wells when it closes in 2011. Another member is the owner of a provider of home care services. Another is the brother of the director of a design company that holds a number of contracts with NHS organisations. It might be that none of them has a direct financial pecuniary interest now or in the future, but it shows touching naivety, complacency or worse.

Before the 28 members of the joint PCT board made the decision to close the four A and Es in north-west London, I said at the public meeting that if any of them had or was likely to have interest of a pecuniary nature they should not take part in that decision. One of them rather touchingly volunteered the information that they had sold their shares. What world are we living in when a third of GPs on the new CCGs can hold financial interests in anything from land sales to an alternative provider?

I raised the question with the Prime Minister yesterday and mentioned Dr Goodman, although not by name, and his estimated minimum return of £2.6 million. Again, I got a non-reply in reply. Sooner or later the Government will have to address these matters.

There is another story in the Daily Mail today that states:

“In 1981 there were eight NHS press officers in Britain. Now there are 82 in London alone”.

It is not that there is a lack of spending on publicity in the NHS. Indeed, almost £1 million has been spent on a private consultancy firm simply to carry out the bogus and botched consultation on the closure of A and Es.

We are seeing the creation of a second-grade health service in north-west London.

[Barbara Keeley]

A number of months ago, I raised the case of a person who rejoices in the title “NHS head of brands”. There seem to be a whole set of units that keep cropping up.

[Mr Slaughter]

I am sure that all Members will have similar examples. It is an obscenity that millions of pounds are being spent on spin and disinformation while basic information is not being provided even to Members of Parliament after three months and persistent requests. Sooner or later, these issues will have to be addressed.

Of course, our main preoccupation is to maintain our first-rate health service—our blue light A and Es, our stroke centres and our major hospitals—rather than having it replaced by urgent care centres and minor primary care facilities. That is what we face in north-west London and, I am sure, around the rest of the country. It adds insult to injury if the individuals who are making the decisions to sell the land and to transfer services into the private sector are also the shareholders and owners or if they benefit in any other way. This is a corrupt act and it must be addressed by the Government. They cannot continue to turn a blind eye to it.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Order. Eight Members are trying to catch my eye and we will finish at 5 o’clock, with Charlotte Leslie having the last two minutes. In order to accommodate everybody, as well as interventions, the time limit is now five minutes.

16:13

[Andrew Selous (South West Bedfordshire) (Con)]

The NHS saved my life when I was 24 with an emergency operation in the middle of the night. It was there for me when I needed it, which is why I care so deeply for it.

We have heard some bad examples of what goes on in the NHS, but there are also many examples of excellent care in the NHS every day. NHS staff, especially nurses on busy wards, work extremely hard. They often rush around, have to miss their breaks and get home exhausted. We must all acknowledge that.

Today, we are debating what happened in Mid Staffordshire, but, as others have said, it was, sadly, not an isolated case. We know that 6,000 deaths in 14 other hospitals are being looked at. One area that no other Member has mentioned so far today is the training of our nurses and our doctors. Of course we want our nurses and doctors to be professionally well trained, but it is important that they do not just have academic skills. However good their biology, chemistry or maths, if they are not kind, if they are not compassionate and if they are not caring individuals, perhaps the people responsible for their training need to say to them that a career in the NHS might not be the right career for them and that research or something else might be more appropriate.

The most worrying thing that I have heard in the debate today is the comment that was allegedly made by a nurse to a patient and that was quoted by the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd): “I am a graduate, I don’t do sick.” That is not acceptable. Other Members may also have read the article by Charles Moore in The Daily Telegraph a number of weeks ago, in which he looked in detail at whose job it is to make sure that patients are cleaned up if they need to go to the lavatory and do not get there in time. The faculty of health sciences at Southampton university made the point that ward sisters always have this responsibility, but went on to say that it is everyone’s job.

When I go round a school, I find that if a head teacher picks up the litter on the ground, surprise, surprise, there is not a lot of litter. When a doctor, however senior, sees a patient to give a diagnosis or a prescription, if that patient needs basic nursing care, no level of seniority in the NHS should be above that. That would send a powerful message that that was everyone’s job, as the faculty of health sciences at the university of Southampton said.

I am pleased that in Bedfordshire clinical commissioning group, the excellent Dr Paul Hassan has told me that there will be unannounced GP visits to the wards of the Luton and Dunstable hospital and other hospitals to which Bedfordshire sends its patients. There will be private TripAdvisor-style patient reports coming back—not report forms handed by a sister to a patient and filled in while the sister is leaning over them, but done genuinely in privacy so that GPs can get a proper report of what is happening. There will be real-time alert buttons on the keyboards of GPs and clinicians so that they can flag it up immediately if things are going wrong. That is excellent. That is the way to get an early indication of what is going wrong.

In addition to outstanding nursing care by caring, compassionate nurses, we need clinical leadership. We need the medical directors and the chief nurses of hospitals to step up to the plate. We need medical directors who are front-line clinicians—that is really important—and we need hospital boards to make sure that they have the proper data. Data on bedsores, for example, should be available at every trust board meeting. If the incidence of bedsores is increasing, that may be an indication that things are going wrong in the hospital. That information should be seized on and acted on urgently.

Above all, we need the medical director and the boards of hospitals to foster an esprit de corps and to create an understanding among all the staff that “we don’t do average” and that excellence is what they should aim for. We need a culture where peer review and challenge are normal, natural, accepted and of benefit to everyone. In that vein I commend the “Getting it Right First Time” report by Professor Tim Briggs, which is looking at a clinically-led hub and spoke peer review model in orthopaedics. That could usefully be extended across the whole of the NHS.

00:00

[Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)]

I am encouraged by the speech from my hon. Friend the Member for South West Bedfordshire (Andrew Selous) because it shows that accountability is not just about supervising organisations, regulators, targets, safeguards, mechanical things and statistics. Accountability is about creatively getting the intelligence into the system about what is happening and reacting to it positively, welcoming it and generating the complaints so that more intelligence comes into the system. That is the kind of accountability we want.

As Chairman of the Public Administration Committee, I feel I can add a new dimension to the debate because of what we are thinking about in our inquiry on the future of the civil service. We need to ask ourselves, “What does accountability feel like?” We think we know what accountability feels like, but my goodness, it goes up and down a bit. During the previous Parliament we felt very accountable in some periods, every single one of us. What do we want accountability to feel like in the health service? With the greatest respect to my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker), the lawyers must be the last resort. We do not want accountability to be about finger-pointing, blame and holding people to account. Indeed, that is part of the disease that afflicts the health service. We want accountability to be about nursing staff on the ward feeling accountable to each other for sharing information, accountable to the patients and welcoming the information they receive from them, and accountable to their managers and holding them accountable for what they do not feel is being done, in an atmosphere of trust and co-operation.

What is chilling about the Mid Staffordshire story is the question of what accountability felt like in that hospital at that time? To whom did people feel they were accountable. What did they feel they were accountable for? There must have been almost an atmosphere of “Apocalypse Now” in the hospital, in which nobody knew where to turn.

In the evidence we are receiving about the civil service, we have had powerful testimony from an adviser to our Committee, Professor Andrew Kakabadse of Cranfield university, who rather chillingly points out an obvious truth. Very few people who work in a failing organisation do not know that it is failing. Most people in a failing organisation know that it is failing. What is wrong? The answer is that they do not know how to talk about it. They do not know what to say, who to tell—or, if they try to tell people, it will be bad for them—or what to do. So people often just leave failing organisations, saying, “I can’t do anything about it.” I bet most of those on the board of the hospital trust knew it was going wrong and did not know what to do. There is this idea that this was just an isolated case, but it represents a systemic failure. There is absolutely no escaping that.

I remember the Paddington rail crash. One’s instant reaction was, “Well, the driver went through a red light; it must have been his fault,” but everybody knew that there must have been something much more fundamentally wrong. Something was wrong with rail safety. In aviation, when there is a plane crash, it is very rarely the pilot’s fault. Even if it is down to pilot error, that will be down to pilot training and that will be a system failure. We need to look at this issue in an holistic and sensible way.

The reaction of the NHS to the Francis report was immediately to reach for statistics and to start doing things. It immediately started a storm around our local hospital, the Colchester General, by latching on to one statistic and naming it as one of the hospitals being investigated, even though—I have written to Andrew Dilnot at the UK Statistics Authority and got a reply from him—a single statistic should never be used in such a fashion. In fact, the Colchester General is in the top quartile of its class of hospital, so that was entirely unnecessary. My wife has just had a knee replacement in that hospital. I was completely confident that she would get good nursing care and she indeed got very good nursing care.

There is now an uncomfortable atmosphere surrounding this issue. There is an atmosphere of denial, and this relates to Sir David Nicholson. Is he still in denial? Is the system still in denial? Can the system change dramatically enough unless people are seen to take responsibility for the culture? It is difficult to argue that he has not been individually responsible for the broad culture in the national health service that has led to this pass.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I am sure the House wishes Anne Jenkin a speedy recovery.

16:23

[Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow my hon. Friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex (Mr Jenkin) and give a south Essex perspective on this issue by speaking about the Basildon and Thurrock Foundation Trust. It was found to have significant failings and high mortality rates in 2009, which led to regulatory intervention, on which the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) will recall delivering a statement to this House. At that time, the Care Quality Commission voiced its lack of confidence in the management at Basildon, but there was no change and no one was held to account.

As we all know—and as my hon. Friend has eloquently explained—institutions fail when they are poorly led. In the event of failure, senior management need to step up to the plate, either to take a grip of matters and force change or to take responsibility. The failure in accountability at that time has no doubt held Basildon back. Subsequent CQC inspections found Basildon failing in terms of care and welfare, safety of premises, safety and suitability of equipment, nutritional standards, dealing with serious incidents, record keeping and cleanliness. That is simply not good enough.

When I challenged the hospital management, the response was invariably, “We’re no worse than anyone else; we just get more scrutiny.” Indeed, in one letter the then chief executive criticised the sensational reporting of some unnecessary deaths at the trust and asked for my assistance in acquiring more positive media coverage, a clear example of the complacency to which the Prime Minister referred when he made his statement to the House on the Francis report. There simply has not been sufficient urgency in addressing weaknesses. That led me to conclude that the trust would not improve without a change in leadership—the same conclusion the CQC reached in 2009.

I also have some wider reflections on the systems of governance. At Basildon, the board clearly failed in its duty to provide effective challenge and to hold the management to account. I think that we need to give a clear indication to directors of foundation trusts that in the event of poor performance, the buck stops with the board. They are accountable and they need to accept that responsibility.

I must say that I found the CQC a very positive ally in seeking better performance at Basildon. I know that it has been criticised by some Members, but my feeling is that its powers were quite limited. It certainly had no power to hold senior management to account, a power that is reserved for Monitor. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has made his comments about the CQC, but I think that he really needs to look at Monitor. In my experience, the work of Monitor has been very disappointing. In Basildon it was not keen to take any enhanced action. Its view was that the trust was not doing as badly as it had been in 2009 and so the direction of travel was positive, even though it was failing to meet the basic standards of care that the public should be able to expect. I do not think that is good enough. It goes to the heart of what we are debating today: the collective failure of institutions in the NHS to hold people to account when things go wrong. I urge my right hon. Friend to look at whether Monitor is really fit for purpose.

Since I started challenging Basildon and Thurrock NHS Foundation Trust, I have been very heavily criticised, as if by holding the hospital to account for its performance I am attacking the NHS and its staff. The contrary is true. If we really believe in the NHS and in providing the best possible health services for our constituents, we must challenge it when things go wrong. We should have zero tolerance of failure. Do we not owe it to the staff who do their job well to ensure that those who do not are disciplined and held to account for poor conduct?

Thankfully, Basildon and Thurrock NHS Foundation Trust is now under new leadership. There are new non-executive directors who will provide a challenge. We have a new chairman, a new chief executive and a new medical director, and I am encouraged by the messages I have received from them. However, when senior management have been excusing poor practice for so long, there is a need for profound cultural change to get things fixed. An NHS with a stronger emphasis on accountability would have allowed us to start that process in Basildon so much sooner and to save many lives.

16:28

[Christopher Pincher (Tamworth) (Con)]

I would like to make two brief points. First, will my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, when he comes to review the Francis report, heed the cause of Robert Francis, and indeed the passionate appeal of my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker), by extending the provisions on criminal liability so that in the final analysis charges of wilful obstruction of complaints and wilful neglect can be preferred? Had such sanctions been in place 10 years ago, we would have seen charges preferred at Mid Staffordshire, and then we might have seen the interesting spectacle of Ministers and former Ministers being called to the witness box to give evidence in defence of those public officials who were claiming that they were only obeying orders and pursuing the policies of their political masters. I think that sort of sanction would be enough to focus the minds of any Minister, past and present, even those who wriggle and twist to try to avoid their responsibilities.

Secondly, I wish to make a point about culture change. We have had the report and the debate, but it would be foolish to assume that there have been any great strides forward as part of a culture change in Staffordshire. I will give one example. After the Francis report was published on 6 February, South Staffordshire PCT issued a press release which said:

“Much has been learnt”—

that word again—

“since 2009 and the PCT now operates with quality at the centre of all that we do.”

My constituent Tom Berry might take issue with that statement. Tom is a gifted young man who is pursuing a degree at Wolverhampton university but suffers from spinal muscular atrophy, which means that he can barely move. He has round-the-clock care from a team of carers. When he needs to cough, those carers have to compress his torso—that is the kind of help that he needs. However, those at the Staffordshire NHS cluster seem to have forgotten his needs and want to change his care package, against his wishes, against the wishes of his family and carers, and against the advice of his GP. I have tried to help him, but the head of continuing care in Staffordshire refuses to answer my letters and hides behind lawyers in refusing to acknowledge my calls to heed the advice of Tom’s GP.

When I threatened to blow the whistle on that conduct in this House, I secured a conference call from the chief executive of the Staffordshire NHS cluster, Graham Irwin. He did not bring to that conference call the head of continuing care, or a clinician, or a carer—he brought his press officer, which suggests to me that, in Staffordshire, medical care runs second to media management. Although he was very insistent that Tom’s care package should still be changed, he said that he did not even know whether a proper impact assessment had been done on the effect of that change on Tom’s health. He said that he would go away and look into it, but three weeks later, after another phone call and another letter, we still do not know what is happening.

If Francis is right when he said that our

“comfortable set of assumptions about the NHS have been misplaced”,

he is certainly talking about what is going on in Staffordshire now. We still have a culture of complacency allied to determined obfuscation. I say to my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State that if we are to restore the battered credibility of care in my county, we need to ensure that we put patients, and not the godhead of targets, front and centre. We need to ensure that we recruit, recognise and reward the best people and sack the worst people. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Sussex (Nicholas Soames) said, we cycle too many bad people through our public services. We need to make sure that when there is wrongdoing, people are punished not in the court of public opinion but in a court of law. If we do that, we can rebuild and restore confidence in our health service in Staffordshire, and we will have a system about which we are prepared to blow the trumpet, not blow the whistle.

16:33

[Tracey Crouch (Chatham and Aylesford) (Con)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) on securing this very interesting debate, which has covered lots of issues to do with accountability and transparency, not only at Mid Staffordshire but throughout the entire country. It is clear from the speeches by the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) and my hon. Friend the Member for Wycombe (Steve Baker) that these concerns go beyond the appalling events at Mid Staffs. My own constituents need reassuring about their patient care, the quality of the information they are receiving and, unfortunately, the mortality rates at Medway Maritime hospital. Like other hospitals, it is now under investigation, and we await the outcome with interest.

It often takes a very long time for the truth about these matters to be completely uncovered. In the past, the quality of patient care has, in many respects, been secondary to the hospital meeting its targets. That is a shame, and it is part of the culture that we need to change. I do not want to believe that there is a culture of cover-up in the NHS. Like my hon. Friend the Member for Totnes (Dr Wollaston), I think that all those who work in the NHS—the nurses, the doctors and the consultants—do a brilliant job in delivering good quality care and the best patient outcomes. Unfortunately, that was not the case at Mid Staffs, and concerns about quality of care and mortality rates are spreading. As I have said, constituents are now concerned about the care they receive at the Medway Maritime hospital.

The trust is always incredibly good at responding to my questions, whether they be about what I consider to be the high use of the Liverpool care pathway at the hospital, constituent complaints, dementia care or specific patient services. However, I fundamentally believe that if a constituent has to involve an MP in a complaint, the system has failed. There is a growing perception that if someone complains, it is their fault and they are in the wrong, while the hospital paints itself as the victim of the complaint rather than the other way around. That is wrong.

The Medway Maritime hospital is under investigation for higher than expected hospital standardised mortality rates, and there is currently a specific outlier alert on septicaemia. Worryingly, this is not the first time this has happened. Discrepancies in coding were highlighted way back in 2008 with the discovery that 8% of deaths were being recorded as end-of-life care when the proportion should have been 37%. Adjusting the mortality index to exclude those deaths reduced the hospital’s score by more than a third. A clear manipulation and distortion of the information only served to damage the best outcomes and services for the patients. I hope that that will not happen again. However, as an outsider it appears to me that the complexity of coding is part of the problem with the lack of transparency.

A culture of bullying and its suppression within the NHS has been mentioned. The latest staff survey at the Medway Maritime hospital shows that there is still a perception that bullying is widespread. If we want to improve standards in patient care—which is a key aspiration for the newly restructured NHS—that has to be one of the most important issues to address. I welcome today’s announcement by the Secretary of State, but may I make a practical suggestion that was put to me by a GP this morning? One of the problems with the system for complaints is that they stay within the hospital—they go up to the management board and do not really go beyond it. Instead, complaints could be delivered on a quarterly basis to the new clinical commissioning groups, which would enable people outside the hospital structures to look at potential trends and patterns of poor quality, and at whether there are concerns about specific consultants. We could end up taking the responsibility from the hospital, having the outsider look in, and making more practical changes.

Greater transparency in the NHS is not just about honesty and accountability, but about better communication. As the most recent ombudsman report highlighted, the common pitfalls are also the result of equivocal language over care, the use of technical language and the failure of insincere apologies. We need to learn the lessons of the Francis report; patients from those families who use my local NHS services deserve nothing less.

16:38

[Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)]

I will never forget the last time I saw my mother. It was three days before the general election in 2005. She had secondary cancer, but she was a fighter, though I make no comparison between her circumstances and the Francis report and the horrors that people went through at Stafford.

There are many reasons why someone might remember the last time they saw their mother, but my experience is overshadowed by a sense of guilt. During my mother’s long stay in hospital—she had been in and out—my brother, who lived abroad, had often been with me and he persistently picked up that the pervading culture on the ward was that he who shouted loudest got attention. My mother would describe how much pain and discomfort she was in—other Members have mentioned similar problems—and say, as elderly people do, “Don’t make a fuss.” To his credit, my brother dealt with it by shouting loud. On that last day, my brother was not with me because he had returned abroad. Unfortunately, I did not shout that day. I went back to the election and my mother sadly died. I am not drawing a comparison with what happened in Stafford, but many patients and relatives will recognise that one has to shout loudly to get heard. That points to a problem with the culture.

In 2005, to their credit, the last Government were increasing spending on the health service. However, that suggests to me that the answer to improving outcomes and care is not about money. We can pour a lot of money in, but it will not do the trick. It has its role, but it is not the final driver. I hope that one of the legacies of Francis will be that we can recognise that the debate needs to move on. It should not be a bidding war between different political parties and ideologies about money. It should be about the thing that matters most: will patients get better, will they receive quality care and will they be treated with respect and dignity, come what may? If we drive a mature debate in this country, we can achieve outcomes on that basis.

As Opposition Members have said, perhaps we can step aside from politics. I am not naive and I do not believe that that will happen. However, every time we debate these matters, let us remember that we have a far greater chance of achieving what we are here to do, which is to provide a health service that is the envy of the world, if we have a mature debate. I say cautiously and with respect that in the light of Francis, our health service cannot currently be the envy of the world, but its ideals are most definitely the envy of the world. We have a duty in this place to set the standards that will make it the envy of the world once more.

I am very conscious of the time, but I would like to make one quick point. We have heard a lot about the culture, but we cannot change it just like that. Culture is thoroughly and utterly inbred within any institution. It starts with the new people it trains—that includes the people who are there now—and it touches everything that it does. Everything that an institution does should reflect its culture, and changing the culture therefore takes time.

Where I disagree with some in this House is in my belief that leadership is where culture starts. This House, managers in hospitals and trainers all have a role to play. However, every time I consider the role of the current chief executive, Sir David Nicholson, I come back to the point that although he has voiced sentiments that I welcome in that he said that to achieve care we need an open, transparent and care-led culture, that it is vital for staff to be seen as an asset, and that it is vital for staff to be able to challenge their leaders, the reality is that he is a command-and-control manager. That is his legacy and others have paid a price for it. I believe that his departure, whenever it may happen, is absolutely necessary to change the culture because we need to start at the top and feed it throughout the business. I say that with a heavy heart, because I do not believe that we should be chasing scalps. However, as I said at the beginning, we should be chasing the ultimate outcome of serving our patients and that is one way of doing it.

16:43

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

This debate has been thorough and, at times, moving. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) on securing it. I was impressed by the moving speech of the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) because it demonstrated the tragedy that lies behind this debate.

The Francis report is a disturbing document in many ways. The Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Health are right that we should not be looking for scapegoats. I do not want us to find any scapegoats and I am sure that you, Mr Deputy Speaker, do not want us to find any scapegoats. We must remind ourselves what a scapegoat is: it is somebody who gets the blame for somebody else’s behaviour. The question that we must ask is who is responsible. That is at the core of this debate. If we cannot find out, we must produce a system that has a mechanism for responsibility.

When someone accepts responsibility, it is refreshing and empowering. If a manager avoids that responsibility, they are effectively acknowledging that they are weak and insufficient at their job. If someone cannot answer those questions and does not feel able to say, “The buck stops with me”, they are not doing their job properly. We need to think about that system of responsibility and accountability.

Can gagging be consistent with effective, decent line management? Absolutely not. A person is effectively saying that someone beneath—or even above—them cannot say what they need to say. A show cannot be run with that kind of mechanism, and we should certainly not be content with the number of gagging clauses we have heard about today. I welcome the end of gagging clauses, and pose the same question that others have asked the Secretary of State: is the move retrospective?

Line management is also about culture because we must be able to trust people when we ask for something to be done, and know that the message is getting out and is clear and fair. That is what good management is. It is not just an issue in the health service; it is an issue in any organisation, and that brings us to the overall question of governance. Governance applies everywhere and must be accessible, transparent and something in which people have confidence. As hon. Members have pointed out, there is far too much buck-passing and evasion, and that will not help us arrive at a decent culture for patients, which is what we should be focusing on. Of course we are right to talk about “patients” rather than “targets”, but we also need patients to feel comfortable with the system in which they are operating.

My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) made a good point about speaking out. Many of us can speak out and do so nearly every day on a variety of subjects. Some patients cannot, however, and need additional advocacy that sometimes does not come easily to them or their friends and family. Just imagine them in a management system in which people cannot listen or talk to each other, let alone take into account the views of patients!

We must have a change of culture and, as the old saying goes, a fish rots from the head. This is about leadership and shaping a culture that effectively manages to spread out everywhere. That culture must be inclusive, transparent and open and effective at empowering people at every level, rather than shutting them down and isolating them in systems that are too complicated to feel comfortable in.

Finally, I welcome the appointment of a chief inspector for hospitals. That is a necessary appointment and will make a huge difference. They must, however, look at the leadership of what he, or she, is inspecting. Leadership is fundamental and matters, and we must ensure it is responsible and accountable.

16:48

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to contribute to this important debate, and I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie), and other Members, on securing it. Transparency and accountability are the hallmark of good governance, but they can involve issues such as whether a patient is on the Liverpool care pathway, whether that is transparent and whether their families know, not solely about the running of a particular trust.

I welcome freedom of information requests, which are among the most useful tools available to a Member of Parliament trying to secure information on data held by hospitals, ambulance services and so on. It is extraordinary, however, that we must resort to those tools to try to get that information and help in holding the people running our services to account.

I accept that the NHS is a complex organisation—imagine a hospital that has issues with bed-blockers, social care, or people trying to find a place in a home, or where ambulances are exceeding their handover targets. Those are interlocking issues. I still think, however, that it is important to hold the chief executives and boards of these trusts to account.

I was late today because I was at a meeting with the chairman and chief executive of our ambulance trust. This is not the first time I have had to work with other MPs to highlight particular failures. In a Westminster Hall debate, I called for the chairman of James Paget hospital to step aside. I have not made that call today. I have asked the chairman of the board to consider carefully the potential issues arising from the CQC report that is due to come out at any moment. It is frustrating that in trying to hit the target people often miss the point. The point is to care for patients.

The Care Quality Commission and Monitor were mentioned earlier. I welcome the changes made by my right hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley) to introduce unannounced spot checks by CQC. A lot of issues were unveiled as a result of the changes and that is to be welcomed. I welcome the recommendation to merge the CQC and Monitor, as there is a risk of ambiguity over exactly which body is holding people to account. I welcome the move by the Secretary of State to have Ofsted-style inspections. I am sure he will learn lessons and ensure that they are focused on clear issues, and not just on myriad matters that get away from the key point of patient care.

MPs in the east of England came together and, by speaking to the CQC and providing evidence, we managed to stop the ambulance trust gaining foundation trust status, because of the issue of care. Politicians therefore can and should intervene when there is evidence of things going wrong, and not just accept the initial recommendation of Monitor.

I pay tribute to David Hill, chief executive of James Paget hospital. He had been chief executive of the hospital before and went elsewhere in the health care system. He came back and within a week I could see that he had made a difference in the attitude to care. A year on, I am delighted to report that all the warning notices have gone and that in the latest unannounced inspection it was given a clean bill of health. That is great news for the patients and great news for the staff. It is a reminder that being brave and being prepared to incur the wrath of people who assume one is attacking the NHS when one is actually trying to defend the NHS and patients, can be worth hile.

That leads me on to the matter of the difficult jobs we have to do. We have to remind all our governors and board members that they are there to represent the patients. They should not feel cowed. They should be tenacious in pursuing the outcomes that everybody wants in the NHS. These are not easy times—I appreciate that. Let us not have too much hand-wringing about how hard it is. We all know it is, but I believe that politicians of all parties are here to try to support the people. We will not do that by ducking the reality that we have to be accountable. That is true in this House if we let down our constituents, but it is also true for the members of boards who do not hold their chief executive to account and demand nothing but the best for their patients.

16:53

[Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West) (Con)]

This has been an excellent debate. I thank the Secretary of State, who has been here for the duration of the debate—as indeed has the shadow Secretary of State. I think there can be general agreement that there has been a catastrophic failure of leadership. That was well and forensically expressed by my hon. Friend the hon. Member for North East Cambridgeshire (Stephen Barclay). It is worth nothing that although there may have been instances—there certainly have been—of clinical failures, it is only possible to hold to account those managers who have a medical qualification registered with the General Medical Council.

We had a blast of reality from the moving and extraordinarily memorable speech by the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd). I thank her, and the people who wrote to her, for sharing their tragic stories. We had powerful and thoughtful speeches from Members involved in the Mid Staffs tragedy, including my hon. Friends the Members for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley), for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) and for Stone (Mr Cash). The debate benefited from the experience of Members who have worked directly in the NHS, including my hon. Friends the Members for Totnes (Dr Wollaston) and for Bracknell (Dr Lee), and from the political experience of those such as the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson). I thank everybody for their contributions.

This has been an important debate, in that it has finally provided a voice for many people who have been kept silent for so long. Another lesson that we can draw from it is that it is not systems but people who care in our health service. We can take away from the debate the many mechanisms of accountability and transparency that have been suggested, as well as suggestions of how we can nurture the professionalism and the best instincts of those who work in our NHS. Let that be a mission for all of us. We must also really ensure—perhaps in contrast to what has been done before—that patients are at the very heart of what the NHS is all about.

The debate has been enormously important, and I hope that it marks the beginning of a consensus and of a cross-party drive to ensure that the scandals and tragedies that we have seen throughout our health system never occur again. I also hope that this marks the forming of a platform for the many people out there who do not have the benefit of parliamentary privilege. It is our duty to ensure that their silence—in many cases, a deadly silence—is ended by this debate and that a new era of transparency and accountability, which should be seen in by a new set of personnel in our NHS, begins here.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That this House believes that in the wake of the Francis Report it is clear that accountability and transparency are of paramount importance to patient safety and trust in the NHS; and further believes that across the NHS individuals found to have breached those principles should face the appropriate consequences.

Immigration Rules: Sponsors

Thursday 14th March 2013 Commons Chamber

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Anne Milton.)

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

Before I call Kerry McCarthy, I must explain that, at 5 o’clock, the hon. Lady will be interrupted so that the same question can be put by the Whip. It is a procedural thing that will no doubt be looked at by the Modernisation Committee.

16:56

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

The issue of immigration is, as ever, highly topical—I cannot remember a time in my nearly eight years in Parliament when it was not—but I want to focus today on one specific aspect of the immigration rules that has put some of my constituents in a difficult position. I know from the responses I have received from other Members that it has affected some of their constituents, too. A number of Members have asked me whether I would be prepared to take interventions during the debate, and I am happy to do so.

The Government have introduced a new minimum income threshold of £18,600 for someone who wishes to sponsor the settlement in the UK of a spouse, partner, fiancé, fiancée or proposed civil partner whose nationality is not that of one of the European economic area countries. A higher threshold applies if the partner—I shall use that term as shorthand from now on—has a child who requires sponsorship, too. It is £22,400 for one child and an additional £2,400 for each further child. There are also rules about adult and elderly dependants, which I do not have time to address here. The British Medical Association, among others, has raised concerns with me about the operation of those rules.

Significant concerns have also been raised with me about the time it takes to process applications that meet all the rules but, again, I do not have time to address them in detail tonight. I will just say that no newly married couple wants to contend with delays when one partner is trying to join the other in this country, and it would be helpful, and humane, if such cases could be speeded up, especially when they comply with all the rules and it is just an administration problem that is holding things up.

Today, however, I want to talk specifically about the income limits. I accept, as do my colleagues on the Labour Front Bench in the Home Affairs team, that family immigration rules should be firm, but they also need to be fair. We need to keep the rules under review, and to adjust them as appropriate to deal with possible abuses and to manage migration at acceptable levels. I do not feel that it is right, however, that the rules should be used to prevent those in genuine, loving relationships from being able to share a life together in this country, when one of them is already a British citizen.

We have always had the “no recourse to public funds” rule, and I have dealt with many cases in which that has proved an obstacle to people wanting a partner to join them here, but I accept the need for such a rule to protect UK taxpayers, provided humanitarian grounds for exception can be applied. We are not, however, talking about cases where the people involved would be dependent on state support. We are talking about cases where the sponsor is in work and is a British citizen, but does not earn enough. By way of illustration, I want to outline the details of three cases. My constituents said they were happy for me to provide the details of their cases, but they did not want their identities revealed. I shall refer to them as Mr X and so on.

The first case relates to Mr X, who for 10 years has lived in Thailand with his Thai wife and their three-year-old child in a long-established relationship. He now needs to return to the UK to look after his elderly parents who are recovering from cancer and are no longer able to travel to Thailand—

17:00

Motion lapsed (Standing Order No. 9(3)).

Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—(Anne Milton.)

[Kerry McCarthy]

As I was saying, Mr X needs to return to the UK to look after his elderly parents who are recovering from cancer. They used to go on a fairly regular basis to visit him, his wife and child, but they are now too ill and infirm to visit. Mr X has a professional job in Thailand, which he has held down for a long time. It is a decent salary according to local rates, but it is not the equivalent of the £18,600 earnings limit in the UK. It is enough to provide him with the same living standards in Thailand as he would have if he were on that sort of salary in the UK—it is obviously a lot cheaper to live there. Under the new rules, Mr X will have to leave his wife behind while he finds work in the UK, which he is not prepared to do—by which I mean not that he is not prepared to find work, but that he is not prepared to leave his wife behind. They are now considering moving to Spain instead, so that he is reasonably close to his parents and it will be easier for his wife to join him, perhaps becoming a Spanish national, which would then allow them to enter the UK.

[Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)]

I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. She is describing a situation that we on the all-party group inquiry into family migration have heard several times. Does she agree that there is a further nonsense to the situation she describes? If the family is not able to come in and look after the parents, instead of the family providing care, this will pile costs on for public social care and public health services.

[Kerry McCarthy]

My hon. Friend makes a very good point, as she always does. If I understand the Government’s ideological position on this issue, they want to support families and very much approve of carers taking on responsibility for elderly parents or others within their family network. The rule that we are talking about operates to prevent that from happening.

The second case features Mr Z and Ms Z who came to see me in my constituency surgery a few weeks ago. They were married in the UK in March 2011. She is a British citizen and her husband, who had been living and working in the UK for six years under a valid work permit, is South African. He was in highly paid professional work in the UK, but soon after they married, he was made redundant. Although he could probably have secured another job at a similarly high salary in the UK, they decided to take a chance and move to Cape Town for a couple of years.

After two years in South Africa, however, they have decided that they want to return to the UK, but the rules changed while they were away. He will not be allowed to join his wife in the UK unless she earns more than £18,600—despite the fact that he is a highly skilled computer programmer who could expect to earn perhaps £60,000 a year in the UK. Before they left for Cape Town, my woman constituent was earning £26,000 a year as a pub manager. As she has been out of work for two years in Cape Town, however, there is a gap in her CV, so she is unlikely to be able to walk straight back into a manager’s position, although she aspires to do so in a couple of years’ time. Wages in the pub trade are not particularly high, so it is likely she will start on a salary below £18,600. As I said, they would have a joint income as a family of about £75,000 because her husband could get a well-paid job, but under the new rules it is based on her income, so he would not be able to join her.

[Fiona Mactaggart (Slough) (Lab)]

My hon. Friend cites a number of cases. I think this whole process is unfair because it is quite clear that families who can afford to maintain themselves without making any demands on public funds are being kept apart. My hon. Friend has cases of people returning to the UK, and just this week I have had two constituents contact me about similar issues. One case was a man returning here from India who has £82,000 in a UK bank. Clearly, he and his wife could properly maintain themselves. However, savings do not count. The man is self-employed, but will not have the long record of employment needed to meet the £26,000-plus requirement, so he is unable to have his wife here with him. The other person—

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I am sorry to interrupt the hon. Lady, but this is supposed to be an intervention, not a speech.

[Kerry McCarthy]

Perhaps when I have spoken for a little longer, my hon. Friend the Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart) will be able to intervene again and make her second point. Indeed, if she intervenes several more times, she may eventually be able to tell the whole story.

I understand that those who earn less than £18,600 can top it up if they have savings, up to a maximum of £62,000. A constituent who was in that situation came to see me the other day. Perhaps the Minister will be able to clarify the position when he responds, but I think that people have to show that they have had the money in their accounts for six months and it has not just been lent to them.

The final case to which I want to refer is that of a constituent whose girlfriend is based in Hong Kong, but is of Philippine origin. He wants her to join him in the United Kingdom, but they cannot marry. She was married to an abusive husband in the Philippines—she fled to Hong Kong to get away from him—but divorce is illegal in the Philippines, which in itself raises interesting questions. What happens if someone from the Philippines comes to this country and wants to marry a British citizen? What will be the impact on that person’s immigration status if that is not allowed?

The couple cannot live in the Philippines together, which is an option that they explored. If my constituent were in a relationship with an undivorced woman in the Philippines, he could face seven years in jail and she could face three to four years.

It turned out, after we had looked into it, that my constituent’s income is just enough for him to qualify under the rules. He came to see me because he had heard about the £62,000 savings limit, and thought that he was expected to have that much money in the bank on top of his income. However, if he had earned just £100 a month less, he would not have been able to bring his partner to the United Kingdom either. They were exploring the possible options. His partner was considering going to Canada, and he thought that perhaps he would be able to join her there.

The situation is ridiculous. My constituent has family responsibilities, and is settled in employment in the UK. The fact that he would have been forced to go to the other side of the world to be with his partner when she could join him here seems nonsensical to me.

[Mr Virendra Sharma (Ealing, Southall) (Lab)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that the rules go against the basic principle that families should be united rather than divided? These financial conditions are dividing not only husbands and wives but parents, grandparents and others. Are they not unfair and discriminatory, especially to those outside European Union countries?

[Kerry McCarthy]

I think that the Government are trying to avoid circumstances in which spouses or fiancées, for instance, are used as a form of chain migration. I have seen that happen, and I accept that the system is open to abuse and should not be abused in that way. I have come across instances in which people first apply for permission for a spouse to join them in this country, and then extend the application to elderly parents, or perhaps younger brothers and sisters. I accept that we have to manage migration to this country, and that we ought to control such situations. However, none of the cases I have cited involves anything like that.

People are increasingly working and studying abroad. People are going off to university in other countries, meeting their partners there, and then not being able to return to the United Kingdom with their partners until they have established themselves on the career ladder. It is not uncommon now for graduates to start work—if they can start work; they may be on unpaid or paid internships or low-paid jobs for the first couple of years after graduating—but to be unable to bring their partners into this country. I recognise the need to ensure that new migrants to the UK do not increase the burden on the British taxpayer, but many couples survive on less than the average income without being a burden on the taxpayer.

[Fiona Mactaggart]

The earning capacity of the spouse from overseas cannot be taken into account. I received a tragic e-mail today from a man who wrote “I cannot get the money. I fell in love with my wife. What can I do? I am really scared.” His wife speaks fluent English, and is a qualified science teacher in Algeria. She would have been able to contribute to science education in my constituency, but she is not going to be able to come here.

[Kerry McCarthy]

That is a valid point and I was about to come on to it. Why is this based only on the sponsor’s salary? As I mentioned, it is highly likely the couple currently living in Cape Town would have a joint income of £75,000 or more, so they would not in any way be a burden on the state.

Basing things solely on the sponsor’s income will inevitably have a differential impact on women who seek to bring their partner here, because, sadly, it is still a fact of life that women are likely to earn less than their partner. Of course, this is even more likely when a child is involved. If a couple wish to return to the UK because the woman is about to give birth—which means she will not be working for the next year or so—they will not be able to do so, even if the man has an offer of a well-paid job here, unless he meets the increasingly stringent rules for getting a work visa, which would mean he would have to work in a specific field where there is a skills shortage.

I want to make a point about flexibility, too. In the current economic climate, people can lose their jobs at the drop of a hat, and these rules do not deal with the realities of life. People can be earning a decent income one day but not the next day, and then be back in work a month or two later. How can the rules be sufficiently flexible to deal with such situations, rather than just penalise people?

What representations has the Minister received about cases that fall into this category? From the research I have done, it is clear there are many such cases. Stories have been reported in the newspapers, too, and many MPs have constituents who are caught up in this situation. What analysis has the Minister done of the sort of people caught under these new rules, and in the light of some of the human stories he has heard—stories of couples who simply want to be able to spend their lives together in the UK—has he given any consideration to revising the rules and allowing more flexibility in decision making?

17:09

[The Minister for Immigration (Mr Mark Harper)]

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) for giving me an opportunity to set out the Government’s thinking. As she was speaking, I was thinking through a number of responses, and I hope I can also respond to the multiple instalment story from the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart), who finally got it all out, I think.

Let me first set out a bit of background to put this matter in context. As part of our general reform of the immigration system across all the routes coming to the United Kingdom, we undertook a major overhaul of the family routes. There were three aims: to prevent burdens on the taxpayer, to promote integration, and to tackle abuse. The hon. Member for Bristol East’s focus has been on the financial requirement, which is the minimum income threshold of £18,600 a year to be met by those wishing to sponsor a partner of non-European economic area nationality to settle in the UK, with higher levels for those who also sponsor dependent non-EEA national children.

The point of the requirement is to prevent burdens from falling on the taxpayer and to promote successful integration. To put the story round the other way and to throw it back at the hon. Lady and the hon. Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr Sharma), people can come here to establish their family lives, but we ask that they should not expect the taxpayer to fund that.

The hon. Lady raised the point about no recourse to public funds, which has always been in place, and suggested that was a sufficient protection for the taxpayer. The problem with that is twofold. First, under the immigration rules only some things the taxpayer funds are classed as public funds. The things that are not considered as public funds are NHS costs, social care, contribution-based jobseeker’s allowance, incapacity benefit, maternity allowance, retirement pension and statutory maternity pay. A range of funds, therefore, are not excluded under the no recourse to public funds measure. If someone comes to the UK under no recourse to public funds, we would still have to provide health care to them, therefore, which may well be a burden on the taxpayer.

[Fiona Mactaggart]

Most of the benefits to which the Minister has referred are contribution-based, and therefore are not relevant. On health care, however, I think most of our constituents would be quite happy if there were a requirement looking at some way of paying for health care, because part of the point of this is that there are lots of cases where people will have enough money on any system, but not on this rule.

[Mr Harper]

Let me come back to that. The specific cases that the hon. Lady and the hon. Member for Bristol East raised can I think be dealt with elsewhere in the immigration rules; that comes back to the point about representations.

[Kerry McCarthy]

It seems to me wrong that if someone is earning a modest income, their partner or child cannot access the NHS, but if they are wealthy, they can. Surely that goes completely against what the NHS is meant to be about. The Minister is saying that there is a different rule for people who earn more, meaning that their partners can get NHS treatment.

[Mr Harper]

No, the hon. Lady misunderstands me, which I am sure is my fault for not explaining the situation. The point is that if someone comes here and we say they have no recourse to public funds, they do have access to the NHS. I think the hon. Lady was arguing that because someone on a modest income who brings their family member here could not access public funds, that would not place a burden on the taxpayer. My point was that if, for example, that person needed to access the NHS, they could, and of course that burden would fall on the taxpayer, even though the income-earner’s contribution to the Exchequer may be very modest.

The other, wider, issue concerns the way our welfare system works. The presence of the partner may of course increase the benefits that the British national is entitled to. Although the migrant might not be entitled to housing benefit, for example, their presence may well increase the amount that the UK citizen is able to claim. That may give rise to a genuine issue about how our welfare system works—that is another debate—but given how it works, it is not quite as simple as saying that because there is no recourse to public funds there is no burden on the taxpayer from their presence.

I want to say something about a change relating to integration, albeit briefly as it does not fall within the category of finance. We think English language skills are very important, which is why, from October, we are increasing the level of English language skills we expect. That is partly to give those who come here the best possible chance of integrating—participating in the workplace and being part of the community.

[Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)]

The Minister is making a really important point. People are welcome, providing they can contribute to the society they are joining. That is surely good for them, too. Does the Minister agree that the central point regarding language and income is that they feel comfortable, involved and included?

[Mr Harper]

I do, and that goes back to the central point of the debate.

I was about to give a little background to how we arrived at the particular sums of money involved, because that is helpful—

[Fiona Mactaggart]

Will the Minister take this opportunity to commit to making sure that in every country, applicants who are trying to come here to join a spouse can actually get the qualifications he is going to require of them?

[Mr Harper]

My understanding is that people are able to do that. I can tell from the way the hon. Lady is looking at me that there is a point behind her question, so if she will do me the courtesy of dropping me a line, I will examine the argument she is making and get back to her, rather than diverting the debate away from its central point.

[Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)]

At the risk of diverting the debate for just a fraction longer, I worry a bit about this language test. I come from a third-generation immigrant family, and my grandfather to the end of his life spoke English haltingly and with a thick foreign accent. What mattered was that he was able to undertake a productive trade, and that his children and grandchildren were not cosseted by being taught in the language of the country they had left, but were properly educated in the language of the country they had joined. To have too stringent a language test is to look at the problem the wrong way round.

[Mr Harper]

I was listening very carefully to what my hon. Friend said, and I will reflect on it. I thank him for making that point.

Let me say a little more about the financial changes—

[Dr Thérèse Coffey (Suffolk Coastal) (Con)]

I am glad that my hon. Friend is moving on to that point, because residents in my constituency are surprised that the limit of £18,000 is so low, given that we hear concerns about the benefits cap of £26,000. I am delighted that he is going to explain why the limit is £18,000—of course, it is more for people with children.

[Mr Harper]

The previous requirement, which I think has been alluded to, was that applicants had to be “adequately maintained”. The courts generally interpreted that to mean income equivalent to the level of income support for a British family of that size, which was about £5,500 a year for a couple at that time. Our view was that that level of income was not an adequate basis for sustainable family migration and did not provide adequate assurance that UK sponsors and their migrant partners could support themselves and their children over the long term.

The previous regime also required quite a complex assessment, both for applicants and caseworkers, of current and prospective employment income and other financial means. It made decision making difficult, as was highlighted by the independent chief inspector’s report of 24 January on the processing of applications under the old rules for spouses and partners. Again, that was partly why we wanted a financial requirement that was clear and transparent; applicants would know where they stood, and we could make clear and timely decisions.

The minimum income threshold is £18,600 a year, with a higher amount with those sponsoring dependent children—it is £22,400 for those sponsoring one child and an extra £2,400 for each further child. We based that on the expert advice of the independent Migration Advisory Committee. It gave us a range of figures and that was at the low end. Its figures went up to about £25,000, a level at which someone would be making a net contribution to the Exchequer. The £18,600 level we settled on is broadly the income at which a couple, once settled here, cannot access income-related benefits. It is not an exact match, but it was as close as we can get. Our approach broadly says, “If they are here earning that amount of money, they are going to be able to stand on their own two feet and not expect the taxpayer to support them.”

[Kate Green]

I understand the logic the Minister is outlining, but when benefits are assessed for a household they are assessed on a household basis. So this approach does not appear to address the point that has been made about ignoring the income of the incoming spouse.

[Mr Harper]

The hon. Lady makes a very good point, which I am coming on to address. In most cases—this comes back to the point about representations—including one of the cases the hon. Member for Bristol East raised and the one mentioned by the hon. Member for Slough (Fiona Mactaggart), there is often an alternative way, through the immigration rules, of someone getting to the United Kingdom. So the reason we do not take into account—

[Kerry McCarthy]

rose—

[Mr Harper]

Let me just develop the point, because either I will answer it satisfactorily or I will not and the hon. Lady will then be able pick up the point she thinks I have not answered adequately, rather than getting in first. I will make two points. First, we do not take into account the previous income of the migrant partner when they apply for entry clearance mainly because what someone happened to be earning elsewhere is no guarantee of their finding work here. However, in the case she highlighted of the female British citizen with a South African husband and in the case that the hon. Member for Slough mentioned of the skilled science teacher, although the partner may not be able to get entry clearance to come to the United Kingdom as a spouse, they would of course be able to apply under our tier 2 skilled working visa to come to the United Kingdom. They could then get entry clearance on that basis and once here in work, earning an income, they would be able to switch into the family route. They could then show that they could earn that level of income and that would then be taken into account. So people who would be able to come here to work in a skilled job could come here under an alternative route and once they have established the fact of earning that level of income, they would be able to change their status under the spouse route, with the appropriate route to settlement. So certainly the South African husband could follow that route and it would work for him.

[Kerry McCarthy]

My understanding is that he would be able to do that only if his job could not be filled by a UK person. He is a computer programmer and, obviously, there are a lot of those in this country already, so he would not meet the criteria: no employer would say that the skills they required could be met only by him and not by anyone else. He has worked in the UK for six years under a work permit and it was unfortunate that the couple left the UK for a short time and the rules changed while they were out of the country. Had they not done so, they would have been able to go down the route that the Minister suggested.

[Mr Harper]

Under the tier 2 rule, it has to be a skilled job and they have to undergo a resident labour market test. So if he has a particular employer in mind, the rules may be a little more inflexible in the sense that he may not be able to say a specific employer, but if he has skills to offer, there are many occupations in which there is a shortage of people. If it is an occupation on the shortage occupation list, the employer is not required to undergo a resident labour market test. There are therefore opportunities in certain cases for someone to come here.

The hon. Member for Slough highlighted the issue of savings. Despite the fact that I managed to throw together some maths A-levels, that was a long time ago so I will not try to do the maths in my head. Savings can be used to make up the difference. We look at the amount of savings above £16,000, which is the threshold that is generally disregarded for income-related benefits. If someone holds savings for the period that they are hoping to come to the United Kingdom, which would be 30 months, the savings count as long as the applicants have them under their control for at least six months.

[Fiona Mactaggart]

Even if they are self-employed?

[Mr Harper]

I believe that the answer is yes. If inspiration does not strike me before the end of the debate to confirm that, I will write to her.

In the immigration rules laid today, we have made some changes to the evidential requirements. For example, we had cases in which people were in receipt of tax-free stipends from universities. The net amount was below £18,600 and the rules were previously unclear about whether people could gross it up. I had a couple of cases raised with me and I thought it self-evident that people should be able to gross it up. So we have made it clear that that is indeed the case.

[Dr Thérèse Coffey]

Does my hon. Friend agree that plenty of companies in this country regularly secure permits to bring talented people to fulfil specific roles? So, it happens now and we are proud to welcome talent into our country to fill those roles.

[Mr Harper]

My hon. Friend is right. If people have married or are with a partner, they are looking at a particular route. It is worth saying, and her intervention highlights this, that there are alternative routes for people under the immigration rules for some of these difficult cases.

[Neil Carmichael]

May I go back to the qualification period, for both savings and income? Why did the Government choose six months?

[Mr Harper]

It was to ensure that people could not abuse the system by holding the money for only a day or two, making the application, succeeding and then giving the money back. It is to make sure that the money is genuinely under someone’s control and available to them rather than their borrowing money that belongs to someone else for a short period. We felt that six months met that requirement without being overly burdensome and putting unreasonable requirements on individuals.

Perhaps I will follow up the point made by the hon. Member for Slough if she speaks to me about the specific case. Inspiration has told me that the savings do not count in that way with self-employed people. If she has a specific case, which it looks like she has, perhaps she will draw that to my attention and I will look at it and see whether I think the rules are sufficient to deal with it.

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

I beg to move, That the House sit in private.

Question put forthwith (Standing Order No. 163).

The House proceeded to a Division.

17:48

[Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker, the Division seems to be taking an excessively long time.

[Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)]

I am sorry, I did not hear the hon. Gentleman.

[Paul Flynn]

My point of order was about the length of time the Division is taking given the small number of Members present. Are people playing games?

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Mr Flynn, I cannot believe that that could possibly happen. If somebody is playing games, I am not sure who it is. You made your point of order just as I was rising to ask the Serjeant at Arms to investigate the delay in both Lobbies.

17:52

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

I am on the verge of sending somebody to see where the Serjeant at Arms has gone. Has this got anything to do with Comic Relief by any chance? It is that time of year.

[Mr Harper]

Comic Relief is tomorrow.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

We may still be sitting tomorrow!

17:29

Division 190

Ayes: 3

---

Labour: 3

Noes: 82

---

Conservative: 45
Labour: 30
Liberal Democrat: 7

[Thomas Docherty]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. There is some confusion over whether it is technically possible under “Erskine May” to call for a Division on the Adjournment. Of course, you are the gatekeeper and the guardian of good order, but my understanding is that there have been occasions on which the House has divided on the Adjournment. I believe that after an Adjournment debate on Norway in 1940, there was a Division on the Adjournment. Any guidance that you can give me would be gratefully received.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

I thank the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. I know that the House is waiting with eager anticipation for the answer. The answer is that it is gone 5.30, so the Question would not be put in any event. Therefore, the Question cannot be put.

[Thomas Docherty]

Further to that point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am incredibly grateful for that clarification. I had a brief opportunity in the few moments that I spent in the Aye Lobby to look at “Erskine May”, but I could not find that reference. Is it possible for it to be circulated, for the benefit of Members such as me who are not as knowledgeable as you, Mr Deputy Speaker, so that we do not waste any more of the House’s time?

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Some people may interpret what is going on now as being a waste of time, but certainly not the Chair. I am absolutely certain that clarifications on the rules of procedure will be made. The Question could have been put before the moment of interruption, for instance at 5.29, which, as the hon. Gentleman has pointed out, has happened in the past. I think that the last time it happened was in the 1970s. On this occasion, we have clearly gone past the moment of interruption and, therefore, the Question will not be posed.

[Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)]

On a point of order, Mr Deputy Speaker. If the Question that this House do now adjourn cannot be put, how can we decide whether the House is to adjourn or not? Surely if we have missed the opportunity for putting that Question, we need to carry on sitting.

[Mr Deputy Speaker]

Thank you, Mr Rees-Mogg, for that point of order. We are past the moment of interruption. Had the Minister carried on speaking until half past 5, I would have just stood up and not put the Question.

17:56

House adjourned without Question put (Standing Order No. 9(7)).

Westminster Hall

Thursday 14th March 2013 Westminster Hall

Thursday 14 March 2013

[Mr Dai Havard in the Chair]

FCO: Human Rights Work

Thursday 14th March 2013 Westminster Hall

[Relevant documents: The FCO’s human rights work in 2011, Third Report of the Foreign Affairs Committee, HC 116, and the Government response, Cm 8506.]

Motion made, and Question proposed, That the sitting be now adjourned.—(Mr Swire.)

13:30

[Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)]

I am pleased to open this debate on the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs report on the human rights work of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. We are lucky to live in a functioning, flourishing democracy, underpinned by the rule of law. Sometimes, we are accused of going too far in our quest to protect the sanctity of human rights, particularly those of criminals who seek refuge on British shores, but it is a price that we pay for freedom and a fair society. The question is whether we have a moral duty to export the values and rights that we hold so dear. Of course we do, but perhaps not at the expense of our national interests. Matching the UK’s support for human rights and democratic values with its pursuit of trade, security, energy and strategic interests is central to much of the Foreign Office’s work.

In addressing the conflict between interests and values, a good starting point is the Prime Minister’s speech to the Kuwait national Parliament in February 2011:

“For decades, some have argued that stability required highly controlling regimes, and that reform and openness would put that stability at risk. So, the argument went, countries like Britain faced a choice between our interests and our values. And to be honest, we should acknowledge that sometimes we have made such calculations in the past. But I say that is a false choice.”

A careful balance needs to be struck between our interests and our values, and the Committee’s report on the Foreign Office’s human rights work in 2011 explored that. In general, we found that the Foreign Office, which I congratulate on its report, was doing a lot of excellent work, at times under difficult circumstances, but we believe that Ministers should be bolder in acknowledging contradictions between the UK’s interests overseas and its human rights values. Such contradictions are a theme that recurs constantly in inquiries by the Foreign Affairs Committee. A good example is our report on the Arab spring; some witnesses thought that a conflict between the two could not always be avoided.

Giving evidence in the current inquiry into Bahrain and Saudi Arabia, Sir Tom Phillips, a former UK ambassador to Saudi Arabia, told the Committee only a couple of weeks ago about working with the grain of particular societies in Saudi Arabia to advance UK values. He added, significantly:

“I never interpreted the working-with-the-grain mantra as meaning that one should not be clear when necessary about our principles on any particular issue.”

Throughout our human rights inquiry, the issue surfaced again in relation to Bahrain and Burma.

The Committee’s human rights report concluded that, in pursuing interests alongside values, the UK runs the risk of operating double standards. It urged the Government to be more transparent and to set out the contradictions in the public domain. The Government rejected our recommendation, but I invite the Minister to consider whether the approach that we proposed would in fact be more open and realistic. Could it expose the Government to less criticism in the long run, without sacrificing our principles?

The Committee noted that nearly two thirds of the FCO’s report was taken up with commentary on human rights in countries of concern. The section on countries of concern is a valuable source of information, but it has difficulties, such as certain controversial omissions and vague criteria, although I note that the Government response says that the FCO will report fully on the criteria in its next report. We warned that the list of countries of concern would lose credibility if political and strategic factors were allowed to colour decisions on designation. Such decisions, we said, should be based purely on the assessment of human rights standards and should stand up to objective comparison.

Bahrain is a case in which we questioned the Foreign Office’s judgment. At least 35 people died and 2,000 were arrested following repression in early 2011. The report by the Bahrain Independent Commission of Inquiry, although substantial and respected, is being implemented slowly, and there is still much to be done. I am keen to keep an open mind on the issue, as we are still in the midst of our inquiry into the UK’s relations with Saudi Arabia and Bahrain and have yet to hear their Governments’ side of the argument. However, the injustices in Bahrain in February and March 2011 were undeniable, and the events in Bahrain did not seem any less serious than those in other countries that were listed as countries of concern. I know that the Foreign Office is not persuaded—it says that Bahrain has a better record than many countries in the region—but it is only fair to give notice to the Minister that one of the first things that Committee members will do when the FCO publishes this year’s report is to turn the pages to see whether Bahrain has been designated a country of concern, as we believe it should be.

Deportation with assurances was another area highlighted in the Committee’s report. Countries receiving deportees from the UK give assurances that their human rights will be respected on their return. Arrangements are already in place with Jordan, Lebanon, Ethiopia, Algeria and Morocco. As a Committee, we are aware of the widespread criticism that promises by Governments with a chequered record of treatment of detainees are, to quote one of our witnesses, not worth the paper that they are written on. The case of Abu Qatada, which has provoked great anger and frustration in recent weeks, is a prime example. I welcome the Government’s response that David Anderson QC, the independent reviewer of terrorism, will conduct a one-off review of the policy on deportation with assurances and that the conclusions will be made public. However, the Committee asks the Foreign Office to provide more information on the arrangements for monitoring detention conditions. The Foreign Office agreed in its response to provide details of the monitoring bodies and the arrangements for following up monitoring. When will that information be provided?

We also concluded that the DWA arrangements are of such significance in Parliament that greater accountability is warranted. We suggested that the text of the memorandum of understanding underlying the arrangements should be laid before Parliament and that Members should have 14 days to object. The Government rejected the recommendation, pointing out that memorandums of understanding are not legally binding, but I hint to the Minister that the FCO missed the point slightly. We are talking about agreements of considerable political significance and concern to Members throughout the House. I urge him and his Foreign Office colleagues to rethink.

There is some debate about whether pressure should be applied in public or in private. We devoted a section of our report to the FCO’s use of public pressure such as sanctions, boycotts and the like, but sometimes private pressure is the way forward. Sir Tom Phillips, the former UK ambassador to Saudi Arabia, told us that he strongly advocated private pressure for reform on human rights in countries such as Saudi Arabia, though he did not rule out public pressure.

It is generally accepted that there are occasions on which public pressure, particularly concerted multilateral action, can be valuable in indicating widespread disapproval of a foreign state’s human rights practices; whether or not it works is another matter. It would not be difficult to argue that the EU sanctions on Iran have been effective in contributing to the current parlous state of the country’s economy, but it would be harder to make that argument for the sanctions imposed on Burma by the EU.

The EU agreed last April to a partial suspension of its sanctions against Burma, for one year. The Committee was satisfied that enough progress had been made towards reform in Burma to justify that. We believe, however, that there is still some way to go. By current estimates, there are still some 200 political prisoners in Burma. We urge the FCO to press for better access for independent observers to Rakhine state, where violence against the Rohingya minority reached a peak last year.

The EU Foreign Affairs Council will need to agree whether to extend the partial suspension of sanctions next month. We would be grateful to the Minister if he told us what the FCO’s preferred outcome is for those discussions. If he is in favour of continuing the partial suspension, will the UK make that conditional on further commitments to reform by the Burmese Government? Will he clarify his statement in answer to a parliamentary question in February, when he said that, if unanimity at the EU Foreign Affairs Council cannot be reached,

“sanctions will fall away in their entirety”?—[Official Report, 28 February 2013; Vol. 559, c. 668W.]

On denying entry visas on human rights grounds, hon. Members will be familiar with the tragic case of Sergei Magnitsky—a lawyer who died in pre-trial detention in Russia in November 2009, following the denial of medical treatment. No one has yet been convicted of any offence in relation to his death. In passing, I register my dismay at the decision of the Russian authorities to proceed with the posthumous prosecution of Mr Magnitsky for defrauding the state. I hope that the Foreign Office will make it clear to the Russians that that is a vindictive and callous action, which we condemn.

The UK can refuse to grant a visa for a non-European economic area national to enter the UK if there is

“independent, reliable and credible evidence that an individual has committed human rights abuses”.

The Government have come under pressure to deny UK entry visas to those people thought to have played a part in Mr Magnitsky’s death. Perhaps the Government have already done exactly that, but we do not know, because the Government’s policy is not to routinely publicise the identity of those who are banned from entering the UK. We concluded that there was value in publicising the names of those who were denied entry to the UK on human rights grounds, if that power was used sparingly.

The Government response confirmed that they could disclose the names of those denied entry “when justified”. That is all very well, but how often do the Government feel that publication is justified? It seems to me that it is very rarely, and I wonder whether the Government are missing an opportunity to draw attention to our determination to uphold high standards of human rights by shaming those who blatantly disregard them.

As we have touched on the subject of Russia’s questionable human rights record, I also draw attention to Mikhail Khodorkovsky, the former head of the Yukos oil company, who fell out with the Kremlin after challenging official corruption. He is currently serving his 10th year in a prison cell, on grounds that are distinctly flaky and based on a trial that did not comply with the standards that we would recognise in the west.

In conclusion, I reaffirm our praise for the FCO’s work on this highly sensitive and morally complex area. The FCO is working in the real world, and the Committee’s job is to support it as a critical friend. We hope that some of our recommendations will help the FCO to strike a better balance, so that its global influence and credibility grow stronger. We live in an age of 24/7 news, where intelligence can be disseminated worldwide at the click of a button. We also have the unprecedented emancipation of previously suppressed peoples, and they might be suspicious of the motives of foreign countries meddling in their affairs. It would therefore be a naive Foreign Office that imagines that it can pretend to act solely in the interest of human rights, when it has its own citizens and national interests to protect.

13:44

[Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)]

I am grateful to be called early, Mr Havard. I begin by taking up the question on Russia, which my friend the Chairman of the Committee, the hon. Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway) left us with. The chairman of the Duma international relations committee, Alexei Pushkov, was on “Newsnight” yesterday, and I am sure the Minister will have been shown a transcript of what he had to say. He said—I am paraphrasing, because I do not have a transcript—that Blair and Brown were hostile to Russia and raised questions on human rights and other matters, but that David Cameron’s attitude was different and the British Government have a new approach. Will the Minister clarify the Government’s position, given that there have been discussions with the Russian Foreign Minister and Defence Minister in London in the past week?

Is there a new approach that downgrades human rights concerns about events in Russia and ignores the murder by polonium on the streets of London of a man with connections with Russia and the UK? We also have outstanding issues, which date back to the harassment of our ambassador in Moscow, and I understand that harassment of British diplomats is ongoing. There are also issues relating to the British Council. To coin a phrase, has there been a reset of relations with Russia, such that human rights and concerns of a bilateral nature are no longer on the agenda, or is Mr Pushkov mistaken? I hope he is, but it would be interesting to hear from the Government whether that is the case.

The second thing I will talk about is Sri Lanka. I have a long-standing constituency interest in Sri Lanka, because many of my constituents fled from the terrible violence of the Sri Lanka civil war. I also have many constituents who came to Britain several decades ago and did not flee from that war. They are happily settled in the UK and have a different narrative to tell. I am increasingly concerned that there is a policy to remove people back to Sri Lanka following the civil war’s end when we do not have the necessary guarantees about the human rights situation and the treatment of those individuals on their return. In our Select Committee report on the matter, we referred to concerns of that kind, as well as to the policy and relationship of the FCO and the UK Border Agency on decisions about the human rights situation in Sri Lanka and the forced removal of Tamil people living in the UK. The Government have recently had to respond to a freedom of information request from an organisation called Freedom from Torture, which I understand raised some further concerns.

When the Select Committee raised the issue, we were told that there are no credible allegations on the torture of individuals who have been returned to Sri Lanka. We were also told that the Government do not yet have substantiated evidence that people who have been returned have been mistreated. We asked about the processes they go through, how they check, who they speak to and how they gather information. A substantial section of the Government response refers in passing to those issues, but I will not quote it now. Do the Government still believe that there are no credible allegations? Are there still no substantiated cases where there is evidence of mistreatment?

I understand that in response to a freedom of information request, which was issued on 6 February this year, it was suggested that a number of people who had been forcibly returned to Sri Lanka have been subsequently given asylum, or at least a leave to remain of some kind, in this country. How many of those are Tamils who were returned due to concerns about their mistreatment? I have been told—I do not know whether it is correct—that there are either 13 or 15 people in that category. It would be helpful to know how many of those allegations of torture were found to be credible, because that information is not in the public domain.

Given that we have concerns about what is happening in Sri Lanka—about the treatment of opposition figures and journalists, and about the very large military presence in the north of the island—is our Government’s position still the same, as regards the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting that is supposed to be held this year in Colombo? Some other Commonwealth countries —no doubt this will be debated later this afternoon—have said that they will not send their Prime Ministers or leaders at a higher level. Canada has made its position on that clear. Is it still the British Government’s position that it is too early to judge? If so, what criteria will need to be met before our Prime Minister attends that Commonwealth meeting?

Finally, I want to raise a general point about the need for human rights issues to be at the centre of the approach to such matters internationally. I was concerned when the UK Border Agency and the Home Office started to have a lead role on some of these issues. Potentially, there is a downgrading of the concerns that are expressed by Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and other organisations that look at those matters worldwide. If the approach in Government is that policy priority is given to economic benefits—or other matters, but that human rights issues are subservient—and if we have a policy that is driven by the desire to keep down the number of foreign nationals coming to the UK, that raises concerns about how we will deal with people who are at risk of persecution, torture, and even their lives, because other criteria are being given priority by the Government. I hope that that is not the case, and I will be grateful to hear the Government’s response.

13:52

[Sir John Stanley (Tonbridge and Malling) (Con)]

I am pleased to follow the present Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee, my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway), and his predecessor, the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes). I very much endorse the comments of my hon. Friend, when he said that the Government would do well to acknowledge that there is an inherent conflict between the Government pursuing their legitimate commercial interests, on one hand, and also standing up fearlessly for human rights on the other. The same point and representations have been made by the Committees on Arms Export Controls, which I chair, and the Government would do well to acknowledge that inherent conflict, rather than expressing a position of trying to pretend that no such conflict exists.

I say to the Minister that I shall raise a number of points, and I entirely understand that he may not have the time or information to reply to them immediately at the end of the debate. I will be very glad to receive replies subsequently in writing, if he so wishes.

I want to start with China, which remains a one-party, totalitarian, police state. Rightly and necessarily, it continues to feature in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s list of countries of concern with regards to human rights. As the FCO’s human rights report reminds us, when there were calls in China for a “Jasmine Revolution” to follow the Arab spring:

“Public order and security bodies detained and harassed lawyers, bloggers, human rights campaigners and other activists, without allowing them recourse to their legal rights.”

Very considerable numbers of human rights activists are in jail, including, of course, the immensely courageous Nobel peace prize winner, Liu Xiaobo, who is still in prison serving an intolerable sentence for the so-called, catch-all offence of “subversion”.

I want to raise a particular aspect of human rights in the context of China, and it concerns the Government’s policy on arms exports. China is rightly subject to an arms embargo. However, in the latest figures published by the Government on the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills website, for the third quarter of 2012, the Government have stated that they approved arms export licences for components for military electronic equipment; equipment for the use of military communications equipment; military communications equipment; military electronic equipment; and technology for military communications equipment. Will the Minister explain how it is that when the British Government have signed up to the EU arms embargo on China, they are still none the less approving military arms export licences to China for the type of equipment that, on the face of it, could be used for internal repression and the violation of human rights?

Like my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South and the hon. Member for Ilford South, I want to discuss Russia, which is rightly listed as a country of concern by the FCO. From my perspective and that of most, if not all, in the House, under President Putin, human rights in Russia are going backwards, not forwards—particularly in the area of the freedom to express, the freedom to criticise and the right of peaceful protest. The laws that are now being put through the Duma, which is controlled effectively by those who support President Putin, are particularly concerning. The laws include, for example, fines for unsanctioned demonstrations and measures to oblige NGOs to register as “foreign agents”.

I noted with interest and concern what the mould-breaking former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev said about the new Putin laws in a recent BBC interview:

“The common thread running through all of them is an attack on the rights of citizens.”

In the face of those new laws being passed and an increasingly hostile environment to basic human rights in Russia, will the Minister, in his reply, give us any assurance that the British Government will do all they can to protect British nationals in Russia, and, in particular, locally employed staff of organisations such as the British embassy, the British Council and those who are working for international human rights NGOs in Russia?

The country that probably has the worst human rights record in the world—indeed, this is stated in the Foreign Office’s human rights report—is North Korea. The previous Labour Government took what I considered to be an entirely justified step—we were one of the first European countries to do so—to re-establish a diplomatic presence in Pyongyang in order to give us the possibility to exercise some degree of leverage on human rights issues, among other things, in the capital, and also to provide a point of contact for human rights and humanitarian NGOs working in North Korea. With the arrival of Kim Jong-un as the “supreme leader” of North Korea—that is how he styles himself—we have in recent weeks and days seen an alarming escalation of hostile actions and statements. We have seen a ballistic missile test. We have seen a nuclear explosion. We have seen the Government of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea claiming nullification of the armistice that ended the Korean war in 1953. We have seen the cutting of the hotline to Seoul. Very recently, a public statement was made that North Korea was ready for “all-out war”.

In light of the dismal and concerning developments that I have set out, are the British diplomatic staff reporting a reduction in their ability to further the human rights agenda and objectives of the British Government in North Korea? Can the Minister assure us that the Government will do all that they can to support our embassy and NGOs in North Korea in the extraordinarily important and difficult human rights and humanitarian work that they do?

I now come, with considerable regret but absolutely no apology, to an area that I think that I have raised in every one of these debates since they were first initiated—Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories. As with my previous contributions, I emphatically do not do so in any one-sided or partial manner. The Hamas rocket attacks into Israel—I have been to the communities in Israel where those rockets have landed—are wholly unacceptable and totally intolerable. Indeed, I regard Hamas as a disgrace to the Palestinian cause and a very serious impediment to the Palestinian wish to achieve proper democratic progress towards an independent and viable Palestinian state.

That said, the Israeli Government cannot escape the criticism that they encounter, both within Israel to some extent and more widely internationally, for the relentless and continuing violation of basic Palestinian rights. I consider the FCO to be entirely correct in including Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories as a country of concern in its human rights report.

[Mike Gapes]

Does my friend agree with me that the formation of a Government in Israel today is a chance for a renewed emphasis on and impetus for the restarting of negotiations that will lead to the two-state solution that is the only viable way to deal with this conflict?

[Sir John Stanley]

I agree with my friend that that is an opportunity, but to be wholly frank and honest, I have grave doubts about whether it will be seized, because I fear that since the assassination of Prime Minister Rabin, there simply has not been a majority in the Knesset that is really willing to embrace the concept of creating a separate, independent, viable Palestinian state.

In recent years, we have seen the Israeli Government ending the movement of Palestinians between Gaza and Israel, turning Gaza into one of the biggest prisons, de facto, in the world. We have seen the relentless and continuing removal of Palestinian families from East Jerusalem, with the clear political objective of preventing East Jerusalem from ever becoming the capital of a Palestinian state. We see the continuation of the intolerable violation of Palestinian human rights on the west bank. To expose that, we need go no further than the Israeli NGO—I stress that it is an Israeli NGO—B’Tselem in its last annual report. It said:

“In the West Bank, two and a half million Palestinians live under Israeli military occupation while settlers live in enclaves of Israeli law within the same territory. Individual acts of violence by extremist settlers periodically capture the headlines, and discriminatory and inadequate law enforcement is indeed a concern. However, the major human rights violations result from the settlements themselves: their extensive exploitation of land and water, the massive military presence to protect them, the road network paved to serve them and the invasive route of the Separation Barrier, which was largely dictated by the settlements.”

Having made many visits to the British consulate-general in Jerusalem, I am well aware of the sterling and excellent work that is done by the Foreign Office from the consulate- general in trying to support and uphold Palestinian human rights in the occupied territories. However, in my view, a step change will be needed in the Israeli Government’s policy towards the Palestinians and towards the occupied territories if we are to see a genuine improvement in human rights. Does the Minister see any such prospect? From where I sit, and having seen the human rights deterioration taking place over so many years, I fear that we are moving to a position in which Gaza continues for the foreseeable future as one gigantic prison, East Jerusalem becomes an area where house after house belonging to a Palestinian family is taken over by the Israelis and, sadly, the west bank loses the possibility of becoming the core of an independent Palestinian state and becomes what I can only describe as a middle-eastern version of a Bantustan. Perhaps I am being too gloomy. I hope that I am, but I fear that I am not, given the progress of events.

I now come to a different part of the world and a different human right. I want to raise the case of Colonel Kumar Lama, a Nepalese citizen who came temporarily to the UK and who has now been arrested in the UK on the grounds of allegations of torture, committed not in Britain but in Nepal and committed not against British nationals but against Nepalese nationals. I wish to inform the House that although I have no registered interest to declare, I am the chairman of the all-party Britain-Nepal group.

I am raising this issue not because I want to take any position or make any comment on Colonel Lama’s specific case, but because it calls into question some very important human rights policy issues for the Government. In his letter to me this week, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary has said that the arrest of Colonel Lama has been carried out to fulfil the UK’s obligations under the UN convention against torture. I cannot believe that Colonel Lama’s case is an isolated one. I cannot believe that Colonel Lama is the only foreign national in the UK against whom allegations have been made of torture committed against non-British nationals in foreign countries. Surely there must be scores and possibly even hundreds of others in the same category, so the key policy issue that I have to put to the Minister is this. Will he now confirm that, in the light of the Colonel Lama case, the British prosecuting authorities and the police will now arrest, in fulfilment of the UK Government’s obligations under the UN convention against torture, all other foreign nationals in Britain against whom there are allegations of torture committed against non-British nationals in foreign countries? That is the central policy question the Colonel Lama case raises. I look forward to the Minister’s reply.

The key human right of freedom of expression embraces, in my view, freedom of speech, a free media and freedom to demonstrate peacefully. Freedom of expression is becoming ever more important in this electronic age, which gives Governments who are so minded greater and greater ability to suppress human rights and human rights activists. It enables Governments to combine unprecedented access to information acquired electronically with an unprecedented ability to carry out surveillance electronically.

I shall turn from freedom of expression generally to developments in that key human right in the Commonwealth. I am glad to say that we seem to have achieved a breakthrough on freedom of expression as far as Commonwealth countries are concerned. The first declaration of Commonwealth principles, made in Singapore in 1971 and followed by a repeated declaration of the principles 20 years later in the 1991 Harare declaration, was a major step forward in human rights for the Commonwealth, but in neither the Singapore declaration nor the Harare declaration were Commonwealth countries able to agree on including freedom of expression as a key Commonwealth principle and human right.

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

Like the right hon. Gentleman, I welcome the Commonwealth declaration, which is a good step forward, but there must be concerns about the treatment of lesbian and gay people, in Uganda and Malawi for example. Although the Governments appear to be able to sign the declaration, it remains to be seen whether that signature will translate into any change in attitude, policy or law in either country.

[Sir John Stanley]

The hon. Gentleman is correct. In some countries to which he refers, national law conspicuously contradicts the Commonwealth charter that has just been announced.

I am glad to say that we now seem to have had a significant breakthrough as far as Commonwealth countries are concerned. In the text of the Commonwealth charter, which the Foreign Secretary has just laid before the House as a Command Paper, we were all glad to see, for the first time, a statement that freedom of expression is an essential Commonwealth principle. I must say that the wording of the paragraph is not entirely as I would have wished. It contains no reference to the right of peaceful demonstration or protest and instead of referring to “a free media” refers to “a free and responsible media,” which will of course provide grounds for countries that regard any form of criticism of the Government of the day as irresponsible to snuff out freedom of expression. We have made a significant step forward however. Freedom of expression is now within the Commonwealth charter—something we have never achieved before.

In conclusion, I wish to add my congratulations to the Foreign and Commonwealth Office on producing this substantial report—all 388 pages, all well worth the publication cost. I have said before, but I want to put on record again, that we owe the initiative entirely to the late Robin Cook, who began these particular FCO annual reports. I consider it imperative that the FCO continues to produce these annual human rights reports—and produces them in hard copy, please. It is equally imperative that they should be scrutinised annually by the Foreign Affairs Committee and that the Committee’s scrutiny comes annually before the House.

[Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair)]

Before I call the other speakers, may I advise hon. Members of the time? I would like to give the two Front Benchers and Mr Ottaway a few minutes to respond and I have two speakers on my list, so it would be helpful if, between the two of you, you kept to eight to 10 minutes, with interventions.

14:16

[Jeremy Corbyn (Islington North) (Lab)]

Thank you, Mr Havard. I am pleased to take part in the debate.

I shall take as my starting point the end of the speech by the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir John Stanley) on how the late Robin Cook, as Foreign Secretary, introduced the concept of an annual human rights report from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. In return, the Foreign Affairs Committee must monitor it and put forward proposals, and then we get a debate in Westminster Hall, which seems to be a poor return for the amount of work put in by both the FCO and the Committee, particularly as the debate is limited to an hour and a half. I reiterate what I said last year, and I have said every year about the debates: the debate should be for at least three hours, in the main Chamber on a Thursday afternoon or another appropriate time—possibly in Government time. If we are to be taken seriously as a country concerned with human rights and with the influence that we can bring to bear on human rights around the world, we have to take ourselves seriously. Although I respect all hon. Members taking part in the debate, it needs to be given greater prominence. I am sure the Chair of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway), would agree, because it would mean that he could speak in the main Chamber, rather than here.

[Richard Ottaway]

I am inscrutable.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

He is utterly inscrutable. He and I had an interesting debate in Cambridge two weeks ago, and he was less inscrutable then.

I wanted to raise many issues, but I shall try to be brief to take on the points you made, Mr Havard, about the length of the debate. We should consider the fact that the parliamentary process of human rights monitoring is complex. We have the Human Rights Act 1998, which applies to UK law. I am a strong supporter of it and our participation in the European convention on human rights and the European Court Of Human Rights. You, Mr Havard, chair the Joint Committee on Human Rights, which the 1998 Act set up. I welcome the Joint Committee and its work. It has been a valuable way to monitor what has gone on, but I remain to be persuaded that, with all the other responsibilities the Foreign Affairs Committee has, it would not be better to have an international human rights Committee of the UK Parliament to deal with international human rights issues and to put forward the strong cases that many Members make on many occasions about human rights issues around the world.

Things have moved on, in that Britain is a signatory to the International Criminal Court and our courts have pronounced a universal jurisdiction for human rights offenders and potential war criminals where there is prima facie evidence against them. That was a huge step forward. We have spent a lot of time raising human rights in Chile and the need to put General Pinochet and others on trial for what they did there, so I welcome the universal jurisdiction declaration. Much less welcome however is that Parliament has reduced its applicability by limiting the arrest warrant to an application by the Director of Public Prosecutions rather than an application from an individual citizen to Westminster magistrates court. That has not done our reputation much good.

When the Minister responds to the debate—obviously there are many issues and I guess he will not be able to reply to all of them—I would be grateful if he could answer this narrative issue. I welcome the way in which our representatives at the Human Rights Council in Geneva, which I quite often attend on behalf of a non-governmental organisation, regularly and effectively take up the issue of the death penalty; they are to be commended on that. It is quite noticeable that on every single report that comes up from a country that retains the death penalty, the UK representative gets up and objects to its use in that jurisdiction; I absolutely welcome that.

I am interested in taking international human rights and human rights law further. The International Criminal Court is an enormous step forward—there is no question about that—but the non-participation of certain countries in it, particularly the United States, obviously weakens it. Since the first world war, the US has had mixed feelings about involvement in any international organisation. What pressure was the Minister able to bring to bear on the United States regarding its participation, or indeed on the many other countries that still need to participate?

I am an officer of the all-party group on human rights, and a vast number of human rights abuse issues are brought to our attention. We try to take them up in the best way we can with our very limited resources. I want to bring up a general issue, but I will first deal with some specific countries.

I notice how rapidly human rights issues can change. In the “Human Rights and Democracy: The 2011 Foreign and Commonwealth Office Report”, one country that has not been listed for particular attention is Bangladesh. Yesterday, there was a demonstration outside this building concerning the current wave of attacks on minorities and the conduct of the war crimes tribunal in Bangladesh. Amnesty International reported last week:

“A wave of violent attacks against Bangladesh’s minority Hindu community shows the urgent need for authorities to provide them with better protection…Over the past week, individuals taking part in strikes called for by Islamic parties have vandalised more than 40 Hindu temples across Bangladesh.”

The report goes on to describe the attacks against religious minorities. To the credit of those who attended the small demonstration yesterday in Parliament square, there were representatives from Hindu, Buddhist, Christian and Muslim organisations. They wanted to see the retention of the secular constitution in Bangladesh and to question the conduct of the war crimes tribunal.

I have no problem whatever with any country deciding to investigate what were the most abominable abuses of human rights and the war crimes committed during the independence war of 1971. However, the case would be strengthened if international observers were specifically appointed to attend all the sessions, to give it a degree of support and approval, which was done in war crimes tribunals in other parts of the world. It is not to say that the war crimes tribunal is a bad thing—I think it is a good thing—but observer presence should be strengthened.

While I understand the deep anger that many people feel and the terrible sense of loss that many have suffered, I cannot, under any circumstance, support the death penalty for anything; indeed, that is now a narrative of our policies. I hope that we will make that clear, and also make it clear that the mobs that are attacking minority communities or anyone who is not seen to approve what they want are totally unacceptable. We should be saying that clearly to the Bangladeshi Government. I do not blame the Bangladeshi Government for the activities of the mobs, because those activities are largely directed against the Government, but all Governments have a responsibility to protect minorities and people in what is an extremely difficult situation. There is a large Bangladeshi community in this country.

The right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling rightly drew attention to the situation in Palestine. I was in Gaza three weeks ago, on a delegation with colleagues from the Liberal Democrat and Conservative parties, organised by Interpal. The issue of human rights and the treatment of prisoners are very current. Issues such as Palestinian parliamentarians still being held in prison, the frequent use of executive detention and the hunger strikes that have taken place, and continue to take place, among the prisoners are not going to go away.

Effectively, 1.7 million people are in a prison called Gaza, with very limited access to Israel and no access whatever, as far as I can see, to the west bank through Israel. The population is imprisoned unless Egypt can be persuaded to open the Rafah crossing fully, which would in turn make Gaza part of Egypt rather than part of Palestine. That may well be the intention of some, but we must be firm that the continued corralling of people in Gaza is an abuse of their human rights on a collective scale.

There is something tragic in talking to brilliant young people in Gaza. Some 55% of the population are university graduates—the best educated population in the whole region—but unemployment is at 70%. Their life chances and career possibilities are limited. It is a cauldron, of course, that explodes from time to time, and unless the fundamental issues are addressed, that cauldron will continue to explode.

I support what my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) said about Sri Lanka and the treatment of Tamil people. I hope that the Government will continue to put all the pressure they can on the Sri Lankan Government. Above all, I hope that the embassy and particularly the Home Office will follow up cases in which someone is forcibly removed to another jurisdiction.

My final general points are about thematic issues. Dalit people in India and many other countries suffer a collective abuse of human rights because of a perverted view of Hinduism. Hundreds of millions of people suffer from that. We have an opportunity to support what the House of Lords has done and defend its amendment to our legislation that would mean that it will be illegal to discriminate by caste and descent in this country. That is illegal in the Indian constitution, but collective discrimination takes place on a massive scale. While the Department for International Development has done well in targeting aid programmes, which ensures that that does not happen in any project that we fund, we must be as tough as possible with the Indian Government and other Governments in whose territory discrimination by caste and descent takes place.

Around the world, there are individual and collective abuses of the human rights of people in the circumstances that we have outlined. There is also an appalling lack of human rights, dignity and access to democracy for large numbers of desperately poor migrants around the world. They are the people who are exploited in big cities and who die when they try to cross the Mediterranean, get to the Canary islands in the Atlantic or travel through Mexico to get to the United States, where they hope to gain some kind of economic salvation. We must address the collective human rights issues of millions of people around the world who suffer the most appalling privations and often death while trying to find a place of economic and political sanctuary. It is up to us to be more alert and aware of the causes. That is surely what being in a democratic Parliament is about.

[Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair)]

I must correct Mr Corbyn: it is not my Committee. The good work is down to Dr Hywel Francis who is the chair of the Joint Committee on Human Rights, not me. It is probably because we are both Welsh that we have a great interest in human rights.

14:29

[Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)]

I commend my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway) and the Committee on securing this debate; it is important that we have it. Perhaps it would be better done at a more popular time of the week and on the Floor of the House, as it raises important issues regarding human rights and other Government policies and Departments that affect human rights around the world. That is one of the themes I will pick up on today.

I first want to congratulate the coalition Government, of whom the Liberal Democrats form a part, on how they have been prepared to take up human rights issues. There are easy targets in the human rights report—such as North Korea, Sudan and Iran—but, significantly, it also covers countries that are potentially embarrassing for the UK to talk about, because of their economic importance. Such countries raise the kind of conflicts talked about by my right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir John Stanley), between our diplomatic and perceived economic interests, and the importance of speaking out about human rights.

It is therefore important that Saudi Arabia is mentioned in the report, that China is covered in detail and that such very sensitive areas as Israel and the Palestinian territories are also included. It is notable that the Foreign Secretary has been increasingly robust and assertive in his comments on Israel. He has talked about Israel not just generally, but specifically in relation to the settlements. He has also spoken about the potential for the European Union to take further steps in its relationship with Israel—that is very beneficial economically—and the consequences that might flow from Israel simply not abiding by the international community’s expectations about respecting Palestinian human rights. My right hon. Friend remarked on the complete unacceptability of targeting Israeli civilians by organisations such as Hamas, and those remarks were obviously very well made.

I want to get across to the Minister my theme about human rights in respect of other Departments in addition to the FCO. The FCO has a very proud record of speaking out on human rights and of raising human rights even when it is difficult to do so. However, many interrelated areas—such as trade, security and energy—involve other Departments.

The arms trade has been mentioned. The coalition was quite right to revoke a whole series of 170 or more arms licences across north Africa and the middle east. The licences were inherited from the Labour Government, as we have sometimes pointed out, but even the coalition did not act on them quickly. It was only the Arab awakening that highlighted the importance of revoking those licences, because arms were being supplied to almost every regime, of whatever record on human rights, right across north Africa and the middle east, including Syria, Libya and other dictatorial regimes then in place.

In that respect, it is important to highlight the arms trade treaty negotiations that will soon resume in New York. The Minister who represents us at those talks, the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), has a very strong record of arguing for a robust treaty. However, we must not allow the qualms expressed by the United States last year at those negotiations to scupper that important global process and the progress that is being made towards a robust arms trade treaty. Last year, when the American election was imminent, its position was understandable, but we must not allow domestic American politics to jeopardise a massively significant international initiative that I hope will help to protect human rights all over the world and save millions of lives.

On security policy, the well-established building security overseas strategy, which has been mentioned, is an area of co-operation between the Ministry of Defence, the Department for International Development and FCO. It would be interesting to hear from the Minister how the strategy is developing. We have heard less about it in recent months than we did earlier in the coalition Government, but if anything, it has become more important.

For example, it would have been much better if the UK, and perhaps the French, had put pressure on the Malian Government many years ago more clearly to recognise the human rights of the Tuareg and of other peoples in the north of Mali, and had not provided the breeding ground first for the civil war and then for the incursion by foreign al-Qaeda fighters and others. That has made the situation in Mali so much more difficult to resolve now, so that it has had to involve military intervention. The building security overseas strategy ought to look at the whole of the middle east and north Africa region and other countries round the world to see where we can use human rights to prevent instability arising in the first place and prevent even a discussion of military intervention.

Energy policy also has an impact. We think of it as completely unrelated to human rights, but if, for example, we decide to accept European biofuel targets, that will impact on the likelihood of illegal incursions into rain forest areas in countries such as Brazil. In turn, that will impact on the human rights—particularly, the collective rights to the land—of tribal peoples around the world who have very few people to speak out for them. On that front, I lobbied the Government very hard to sign or ratify International Labour Organisation convention 169, which helps to defend tribal peoples’ rights around the world. I very much regret that the Government decided not to sign or ratify it, and I very much hope that the decision will be reconsidered.

In the closing minutes of my speech, I want to second and welcome some of the comments made by other Members. Those made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling about China are very important. The issue is significant not only in relation to human rights within China’s borders—where those borders lie is arguable; it is now accepted that Tibet is part of China, but the ongoing human rights situation there is very serious—but in relation to the influence, support and friendship that China has given to some quite odious regimes over the years, from Burma to North Korea, Sudan and Zimbabwe. If China is to become a responsible member of the family of nations, I am afraid that it really needs a responsible record on human rights around the world. Unfortunately, the current example in Syria shows that it is another country to add to the list, alongside Russia. Both Russia and China need to step up to the plate and to support the international community in taking on the murderous Assad regime.

I welcome the comments made by the Select Committee in its report, particularly on the need for a more open and objective approach to the definition of countries of concern, and the points about Bahrain were well made.

The Committee was right to raise the issue of the removal and deportation processes. High-profile cases, such as the case of Abu Qatada, have coloured the whole public debate. We must not return people to countries where they are at risk of torture and there is a risk that human rights are abused. In a way, it was important that it was not the dreaded European Court of Human Rights, but the British Special Immigration Appeals Commission, that eventually kept Abu Qatada in the country. That case is still to be resolved, and we should probably not discuss its details in this Chamber. It is important, however, that our approach to such issues is not dictated by the Daily Mail and the Daily Express, but by a real concern for human rights.

Finally, it is important to have a robust arms trade treaty, and Britain should play a strong part in that. We should not only preach and produce reports about human rights, but act in international forums in a way that reinforces human rights. That is sometimes a difficult balance to strike. It was difficult for Robin Cook, with his ethical foreign policy. It was probably quite difficult for the former right hon. Member for Midlothian, the proud Liberal Prime Minister William Gladstone, all the way back in 1876, with his Midlothian campaign, when he was the first politician to make human rights absolutely central to British politics. I am very proud to stand in that tradition. I am also proud to support the coalition Government when they have raised human rights, but they must act as well as speak.

14:38

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

As ever, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Havard. I join in the congratulations to the Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee, the hon. Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway) and to Committee members for bringing their report to Westminster Hall today. However, I echo the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) about the need to spend much longer debating it. We had the same problem last year, and we could easily spend a whole day on it in the main Chamber to do justice to the issues raised. I hope that that matter will be considered next year.

Both the Chair of the Select Committee and the Chair of the Committees on Arms Export Controls, the right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir John Stanley), have brought their considerable experience to bear in their speeches. If we look around the Chamber today, we will see that the entire political spectrum is covered, and yet we are all committed to pursuing the issue of human rights and trying to ensure that the UK gives the matter greater priority. That is the one thing that has come through in all the speeches we have heard this afternoon.

The right hon. Member for Tonbridge and Malling used his expertise to talk about North Korea and Russia, as did my hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes). Last year, I went to Moscow to observe two days of the trial of Pussy Riot, which is an issue that is quite dear to my heart. This year is the 10th anniversary of Khodorkovsky’s arrest, and the two band members were held in the same glass box that was used to contain him when he came to court. From the people I met on that visit and from the numerous events that I have been involved in since calling for the release of the two remaining members of Pussy Riot who are still being held in penal colonies, it is clear that the human rights situation in Russia has deteriorated significantly. Human Rights Watch said recently that 2012 saw the worst crackdown since the fall of the Soviet Union. It will be interesting to see how that is addressed in next year’s report.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ilford South mentioned the deportation issue in Sri Lanka. I am also speaking in the next debate about Commonwealth day, so I will be covering that issue then as well. His points were well made. We need to revisit the issue of who we are deporting to Sri Lanka and the situation that they might face there.

My hon. Friend the Member for Islington North and the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) discussed in some detail the matter of Israel and Palestine. I will not refer to it here, as it is a topic that is discussed in quite some depth elsewhere. For example, in Foreign Office questions last week, about half of the questions on the Order Paper were about Israel and Palestine. None the less, let me echo the concerns that have been expressed, especially about the failure of international law to make any progress. It is all very well to condemn the human rights situation, the illegal settlements, the route of the wall and, of course, the abuses on the other side, but there is always this sense of déjà vu; what can the Foreign Office do to address those issues, make some progress and try to ameliorate the situation for the many people who suffer human rights abuses?

Let me turn now to the detail of the report. Last year’s report noted the Foreign Office’s decision to omit Bahrain from the list of countries of concern in its 2010 human rights report, which was described as a “glaring omission” by Human Rights Watch. The Government’s response last year argued that many of the most serious events in Bahrain fell outside the 2010 period covered by the report, but that they undertook to ensure that next year’s report—the one we are discussing now—would address them. None the less, Bahrain is still not included as a country of concern, and the Committee has once again concluded that it should have been.

The FCO’s report included a case study of Bahrain, but Human Rights Watch has described it as “very weak”. Will the Minister elaborate on the reasons for including Bahrain as a case study rather than as a country of concern, and tell us who was involved in taking that decision?

Will the Minister commit to introducing more transparency and clear criteria for the designation of countries of concern, especially as Human Rights Watch has described the current rationale as “vague and unconvincing”? I also echo the questions that were posed about the Bahrain grand prix. It was a matter that we discussed in some detail last year. There seemed to be a lack of clear guidance as to whether it was appropriate for the 2012 grand prix to go ahead. Will the Minister advise us on the FCO’s position on the 2013 grand prix?

Boycotts are also mentioned in the report. As some Members have said, they can be a blunt instrument if they are used in a seemingly arbitrary way. As the Select Committee reported:

“It is difficult to discern any consistency of logic”

in the Government’s approach last year. Indeed, with the Euro 2012 matches in Ukraine, the Minister seemed to suggest that the Government would keep the attendance under review. It was said that if the England team progressed to the later stages of the tournament, the Government might be prepared to attend, but they would boycott the earlier stages, which seemed rather inconsistent and gave the impression that the Government were willing to attend if they received good PR and a nice photo opportunity back at home but were not too bothered about the earlier stages of the game.

Conflicting interests were a prominent concern in the Select Committee report as they were in the 2010 report. The Committee said:

“It is inevitable that the UK will have strategic, commercial or security-related interests which have the potential to conflict with its human rights values.”

The previous Minister with responsibility for human rights, the hon. Member for Taunton Deane (Mr Browne), advised that the Government saw no inherent contradiction between the Government’s pursuit of commercial interests overseas and the promotion of human rights, and the Government’s official response this year stated again that they “do not agree” with the Committee’s assessment.

It is troubling if the Government are not alive to the danger that their pursuit of financial investment from some countries could compromise or overshadow their message on human rights. Does the Minister at least acknowledge that there is the potential for conflict, and will he set out the Foreign Office’s strategy for managing that and ensuring transparency so that the Government’s human rights work is not compromised?

Only last month, there were reports that the Cabinet was split over how robust the UK should be on China’s human rights record given the country’s economic importance. Yesterday, along with other Members, I met a couple of constituents from Tibet, who were here to lobby us about continued human rights abuses in their country. I had to say that I strongly suspected that the matter of Tibet was not a priority for Ministers when they visit China, and I said that it should be.

The Prime Minister’s answers to my parliamentary questions suggest that he did not discuss the use of the death penalty during his recent visit to India.

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Hugo Swire)]

I did.

[Kerry McCarthy]

I was about to mention the fact that the Minister did, but the Prime Minister did not, despite India’s recent resumption of the use of the death penalty, and the abolition of the death penalty being included among the priorities of the Foreign Secretary’s human rights advisory group. As the Minister has just advised me from a sedentary position—I was going to mention it anyway—he discussed the death penalty with representatives in India, but if

“the promotion and protection of human rights”

really is at the heart of UK foreign policy, as the Foreign Secretary states in his foreword to the 2011 report, does the Minister not think that that should be the case at every level of Government and that it should not be given to—if the Minister will forgive me for saying so—a junior Minister in the Department rather than the Secretary of State to raise such issues?

Similarly, when I asked the Prime Minister about what discussion there was of human rights when he visited the UAE and Saudi Arabia, he would say only that

“no subject is off limits”.—[Official Report, 13 November 2012; Vol. 553, c. 143W.]

That rather gave the impression that human rights had not been discussed in detail with the Government. Will the Minister advise us on whether human rights were discussed and, given that Saudi Arabia is listed as a country of concern, will he tell us what the Government’s policy is on ministerial and prime ministerial visits to countries of concern, and whether there is clear guidance about whether and when human rights should be included on that list?

The Prime Minister’s visit to Saudi Arabia brings me neatly on to the arms trade. It is deeply concerning that the Committee found that the Minister with responsibility for human rights was not even aware let alone consulted about which countries appeared both on the FCO’s list of countries of concern and as one of the priority markets for arms exports for the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. Will the Minister assure us that in future there will be more co-ordination between the two Departments, and can he outline the FCO’s guidance on arms exports to countries of concern? With the imminence of the UN conference on the arms trade treaty, will he assure us that the UK will be the champion of a strong treaty and not a broker for a weak one?

Given the short time we have left, I will leave my comments on Sri Lanka for the Commonwealth day debate. None the less, I echo the concerns that have been raised about the human rights situation there.

I was in Burma over the weekend and had the fantastic opportunity to attend the first-ever conference of Aung San Suu Kyi’s National League for Democracy. It had been banned for 25 years from holding a party conference. It gives one such hope to visit a country where there has been progress on both human rights and democracy. We hope that in 2015, there will be democratic elections which will see Aung San Suu Kyi become President of Burma. I wanted to mention my visit because it shows that improvements can happen. Last year, the EU took the decision to suspend sanctions. Given what I have observed of the situation in Burma, I think that that was the correct decision and indeed it is something that the NLD supported as well.

Finally, it was troubling that the Government were so reticent in providing information on the number of staff working full-time on human rights. I know that the Foreign Affairs Committee eventually ascertained that there are 14 staff working across the 28 countries of concern and four case-studies countries. Does the Minister have any plans to increase that number?

To conclude, I welcome the Government’s continuing commitment to their annual human rights report and, as I have already said, I hope that next year we can have a fuller and more public discussion of the 2012 report in the main Chamber.

[Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair)]

May I ask you, Minister, to give Mr Ottaway a couple of minutes at the end of the debate?

[Richard Ottaway]

indicated dissent.

[Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair)]

Mr Ottaway is indicating that he does not need more time.

[Richard Ottaway]

I give my time to the Minister.

[Mr Dai Havard (in the Chair)]

Excellent. Thank you very much for that. I call the Minister.

14:49

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Hugo Swire)]

Mr Havard, I welcome the opportunity to set out in this debate the Foreign and Commonwealth Office’s work on human rights. I begin by thanking the Foreign Affairs Committee for its positive and constructive engagement with us on our human rights work. I am delighted to speak for the Government today on behalf of Baroness Warsi, the Minister with responsibility for human rights.

Given the slight shortage of time, I am rather inclined to support the idea that we should debate these matters for longer and I will simply be unable to respond to all hon. Members who have spoken. I have made a note of hon. Members’ questions—they are extremely good questions—and I will try to answer them, but if I do not I will commit to writing my replies.

At the outset of the debate, there was some discussion and some concern about the UK’s overseas interests and our human rights agenda, as if they were in some way contradictory. I do not really share some of the cynicism that was expressed, because the promotion and protection of human rights is at the heart of our foreign policy. Britain stands for democratic freedoms, universal human rights and the rule of law. We believe that individual demands for a better life can only be truly satisfied in open and democratic societies, and that it is peaceful, open economies that allow trade and investment to flourish.

I turn first to the 2011 report that we are debating, and our work in that year, and then I will move on to human rights developments during the course of 2012.

In response to the Committee’s feedback on the 2010 report, we made a number of changes to the 2011 report. We featured an in-depth look at the Arab spring and a chapter on our human rights priorities, and we reintroduced case studies to highlight issues of concern in countries whose overall record did not merit their inclusion in the countries of concern list.

In terms of achievements in 2011, the UK made a significant contribution to the promotion and protection of human rights worldwide. I shall limit myself to mentioning just three countries in particular. On Libya, we were instrumental in negotiating UN Security Council resolutions that paved the way for NATO action to protect civilians threatened by Gaddafi’s forces. Across the middle east and north Africa, the £110 million Arab partnership fund helped us to build more open and free societies on key issues such as empowering women, and promoting democracy and the rule of law. In Burma, my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary witnessed at first hand the positive changes that have taken place in the country when he became the first British Foreign Secretary to visit Burma since 1955. I subsequently visited Burma in December last year, and was able to visit Rakhine state, which is a subject of great interest to the House.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Swire]

I will take just one intervention; I ask other Members to let me make some progress.

[Jeremy Corbyn]

I will make a very brief intervention. We obviously welcome all the democratic changes in Burma, but in his discussions in Burma did the Minister express any concern about the treatment of Muslim minorities and other minorities in the country at the present time?

[Mr Swire]

Yes, I can confirm that I have been doing a lot of work on that issue. I was the first Minister from Europe to go to Rakhine; I went to Sittwe and five different camps, and ever since then I have been raising the issue of the Rohingya people.

My hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway), the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee, asked a number of questions about Burma, including about the sanctions against Burma. The EU Foreign Affairs Council will review the sanctions against Burma in April. We have always said that the outcome of that review will depend on the progress that the Burmese Government have made against the benchmarks set out in the council’s conclusions of 12 January, including the need for meaningful progress on reconciliation with armed ethnic groups.

My hon. Friend also asked about political prisoners in Burma, which is another issue I have raised repeatedly with the Burmese. Independent experts estimate that there remain about 240 political prisoners in Burma, and we welcomed the announcement by the Burmese Government that the International Committee of the Red Cross has access to all jails and prisoners. We also welcomed President Thein Sein’s announcement on 7 February that the prisoner review mechanism will contain civil society leaders and Members of Parliament. We really want to see that happen.

On the issue of Rakhine, which was mentioned earlier, I have just told the hon. Member for Islington North (Jeremy Corbyn) about my work there.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir John Stanley) raised the issue of Russia and the whole question of Mr Magnitsky. Yesterday both my Foreign Secretary and the Minister for Europe met the Russians and raised these issues with them repeatedly. As is well known—my right hon. Friend will know it if he has read the papers today—the Foreign Secretary met Russia’s Foreign Secretary Lavrov yesterday, and we will continue to raise these issues and bring those responsible for Sergei Magnitsky’s death to account. We also raised concern over the new measures restricting freedom of expression and putting pressure on civil society. It is worth saying that we fund a number of projects to support Russian civil society, and we continue to meet and provide support to those who are subject to harassment. I give an assurance that we will continue to do all we can to protect British nationals and our staff in Russia, as my right hon. Friend asked us to do.

[Mike Gapes]

On the issue of Russia, will the Minister give way?

[Mr Swire]

I must continue. All right, I will give way.

[Mike Gapes]

I am very grateful to the Minister for giving way. Can he just say on the record that the remarks by the chairman of the Russian Duma’s international relations committee on “Newsnight” yesterday were wrong?

[Mr Swire]

I did not see those remarks, so I will go and study them and then get back to the hon. Gentleman.

The 2011 report also highlighted the progress that we have made against our six specific human rights priorities. These priorities are: torture prevention; the death penalty; women’s rights; freedom of religion or belief; freedom of expression online; and business and human rights. In 2011, we saw significant strengthening of our focus on torture prevention through the publication of torture and mistreatment reporting guidance and the strategy for the prevention of torture, which we understand is the first such national strategy in the world.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling raised the issue of Colonel Lama of Nepal. As the Minister with responsibility for Nepal, I know about the particular incident and I just say that the Government are very mindful of our obligations under the UN convention against torture, and every case will of course be subject to the due process of the law.

In 2011, we also reviewed our death penalty strategy, and we continue to pursue abolition, restriction, or—at the least—adherence to international minimum standards. The long-term trend is positive and we judge that the number of countries now carrying out executions has dropped by half since the mid-1990s.

Since publication of the 2011 report, the Foreign Secretary has launched the preventing sexual violence initiative to strengthen and co-ordinate international efforts to prevent and respond to atrocities involving sexual violence, and to break down the culture of impunity around such crimes. As I speak, the UN Commission on the Status of Women meeting is in its final sessions and we hope for a more positive outcome this year. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for International Development and other ministerial colleagues have been active in lobbying for a strong set of agreed conclusions. Incidentally, I very much welcome my hon. Friend’s campaigning work to end female genital mutilation.

As the Minister with responsibility for human rights, Baroness Warsi has made freedom of religion or belief a personal priority. She hosted a cross-regional meeting of Ministers in London in January to build political momentum to combat discrimination against people based on their religion or belief. We also remain a strong supporter of freedom of opinion and expression, not least on the internet. We speak out on countries that oppose or abuse this right, pressing them to uphold their international obligations. As the Committee knows, we played a leading role in supporting the development of the UN guiding principles on business and human rights, which were endorsed by the UN in June 2011. We have developed a strategy to implement and promote those principles.

In February 2012, we published our updated national action plan on UN Security Council resolution 1325 on women, peace and security, which highlighted work in Afghanistan, Iraq and the middle east, as well as in the UK’s own security operations. We became the first country to publish human rights guidance for our overseas security and justice sector work, and we reviewed and improved our already robust arms export controls.

In April last year, the Foreign Secretary announced an additional £1.5 million in funding for human rights projects, with particular emphasis on the countries of concern covered in the 2011 report. We have also made changes to the ways in which we bring in external expertise, which I think was one of the recommendations of the Foreign Affairs Committee, to inform and challenge our policy formulation.

The Foreign Secretary’s human rights advisory group has met twice yearly since it was first established in December 2010. This group of experts has brought valuable challenges to us on many human rights issues. We consulted the group on criteria for deciding the countries of concern for the 2012 report. We intend to report fully on the methodology used in the coming report. The report will be published in April and we look forward to the Committee’s response. I hope that the report will be published in hard copy too; I shall ensure that the comments by my right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling are taken on board.

We should never be complacent about human rights. No matter what progress is made, there remain huge challenges all over the world. We shall remain steadfast in support of human rights and democracy in the middle east and north Africa as difficult transitions take place. The Arab partnership initiative will help us to do that.

My right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling, the hon. Member for Islington North and my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South raised a number of issues involving Bahrain. I am well aware of the Committee’s interest in Bahrain and the middle east. We welcome the national consensus dialogue that has begun and encourage all parties to remain engaged. However, the ongoing tensions are of concern, particularly the events around the 14 February anniversary. We condemn violent acts by any side, which will only hinder efforts towards reform and reconciliation. We remain supportive of the reforms underway and encourage Bahrain’s Government to show renewed energy in implementing them.

We will continue to focus on countries where we have not seen any improvement in human rights and democracy, such as Iran, where the regime continues to violate human rights with impunity.

Hon. Members mentioned North Korea, and we are concerned about the situation there. We take every opportunity to try and influence North Korea’s Government and work to improve the lives of vulnerable groups. However, given the lack of progress, we will co-sponsor a resolution in the current session of the Human Rights Council to recommend that the UN establishes a commission of inquiry into human rights abuses there.

We share the Committee’s concern, particularly that of the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes), about human rights in Sri Lanka—we might discuss that in the debate following this one—not least relating to disappearances, political violence, free expression and judicial independence. More needs to be done, particularly on political settlement, accountability and reconciliation. It is worth putting on the record again that the Government have yet to make a decision about attending this year’s Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting. We look to Sri Lanka, as with any other CHOGM host, to show its commitment to upholding the Commonwealth’s values. All Commonwealth member states have agreed the Commonwealth charter setting out these values, which was signed by Her Majesty the Queen, as Head of the Commonwealth, earlier this week. I look forward to debating these and other issues later this afternoon.

We acknowledge the Committee’s strong interest in deportations with assurances. We firmly believe that we should be able to deport foreign nationals who are engaged in terrorist-related activities, but we will not deport someone if there are substantial grounds for believing they will face a real risk of torture in their home country, or where the death penalty will be applied. We recognise the considerable interest in the House in our DWA arrangements. Although there is no statutory requirement to lay memorandums of understanding before the House, the Government will, of course, continue to notify Parliament by written ministerial statement when new MOUs are signed and to place copies in the Library.

Both Syria and the Sahel, mentioned by the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood), remain high on the Government’s agenda. We condemn the ongoing human rights violations and abuse in Syria in the strongest terms. We call on all sides to put an immediate end to the violence, to respect international humanitarian and human rights laws, and to pursue a genuine Syrian-led political transition. We will continue to do all we can to help bring to account those responsible for human rights violations and abuses. The International Criminal Court should play a role in this.

We are encouraging partners in the Sahel region to build their capacity to tackle terrorism in a human rights-compliant manner. Allegations of human rights violations by members of the Malian armed forces are of concern. In line with Security Council resolution 2085, those responsible for violations and abuses must be held accountable. The UK has pledged 40 trainers for the EU training mission to the Malian armed forces, three of whom are civilians who will provide human rights training.

This has been a constructive debate. I have left a number of issues that I would dearly love to address, not least the situation in Israel and with the Palestinian authority, and the hope we all have in President Obama’s visit there shortly. However, there is a time limit in this debate. If any questions remain unanswered, I will be happy to write to hon. Members who asked them.

Backbench Business

Thursday 14th March 2013 Westminster Hall

Commonwealth Day

Thursday 14th March 2013 Westminster Hall

[Mr Philip Hollobone in the Chair]

[Relevant documents: The role and future of the Commonwealth, Fourth Report of the Foreign Affairs Committee, HC 114, and the Government response, Cm 8521.]

15:04

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

In this debate I can think of no more pre-eminent parliamentarian to lead us off than Sir Alan Haselhurst.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden) (Con)]

Mr Hollobone, I am grateful to you for calling me to speak in that generous manner. I am not sure that I can quite live up to that billing, but I appreciate the opportunity to address you in the Chair. I am also grateful to the Backbench Business Committee for agreeing, at a congested time in the parliamentary programme, that we could have a debate on the Commonwealth.

It has been my initiative, as chairperson of the international executive of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, to try to encourage universally throughout the Commonwealth a debate on a wide canvas, not necessarily to any rigid format, but to allow issues connected with the Commonwealth to be raised, as much as anything else just to hoist the flag and show that there is membership of the Commonwealth in each of the legislatures, that it ought not to be forgotten and that there should be a regular review of some issues affecting it. It is a rather good week, apart from being the week in which Commonwealth day occurs, because the new charter has been signed by Her Majesty the Queen. That in itself is a notable event, which we are right to recognise in this House.

It might be asked, what really is the Commonwealth? To even pose the question is a reminder that many people are unaware of the existence of the Commonwealth in their daily lives. That is worrying in respect of the Commonwealth concept having meaning and if people are to understand its breadth and the opportunities it provides. It is, importantly, a voluntary association. Nobody has to be a member of the Commonwealth. The modern Commonwealth is not a British Commonwealth; it is the Commonwealth of nations, in which there should, indeed, be parity of esteem. It is an example of countries slowly edging together, towards wider circles of understanding and co-operation, beginning to see that there are opportunities that were perhaps not recognised 10, 20 or 30 years ago.

The Commonwealth embraces one third of the world’s population, and half of the population of the Commonwealth is under 25. We should be particularly concerned about that young section. Just as we tend to accept the world as it is at the moment we are born, so the Commonwealth can pass over the heads of many young people, weighed down, perhaps, by what they see as immediate issues around them, rather than realising that they are also part of this greater entity. The Commonwealth must have meaning for them. That is why there is particular importance in the promulgation of the charter, affirming the commitment of the Commonwealth to the principles enshrined at Harare, Singapore and Trinidad and Tobago, and focusing on respect for human rights and equality for all, the rule of law and good governance.

It is correct that we should ask all members of the Commonwealth continually to assess themselves, and be assessed, against those values, but some degree of tolerance has to be allowed. There is never going to be a rigid standard to which at all times all nations are going to conform, for a variety of reasons. Indeed, looking at our systems of government, it could be argued that none of us are perfect. It is not too clever for British politicians to say to their partners in the Commonwealth, “You should be doing more about the representation of women in your Parliament”, when we in this country have not attained the levels that we would like to have achieved.

We cannot always expect the laws in certain other Commonwealth countries to conform to where we are; we have changed our minds on some issues, and the laws in our country have developed. We need to be careful about the extent to which we scold other countries for not marching in step with us. What is needed is a process of persuasion—sometimes rather slow persuasion—to move countries towards what might be seen as full conformity with the values of the charter.

In concluding the wider debate that preceded this one, the Minister mentioned the upcoming Heads of Government meeting in Sri Lanka. I visited that country for last year’s Commonwealth Parliamentary Association conference. I had the privilege of giving a lecture in the series commemorating the late Lakshman Kadirgamar, Sri Lanka’s former Foreign Minister. He was a contemporary of mine at university, whom I admired then and whom I grew to admire even more during his legal and political career. In my lecture, I laid down views as to what our friends in Sri Lanka needed to do to give confidence to their partners in the Commonwealth and to ensure there was full-hearted support for their hosting of the Heads of Government meeting later this year. It is perhaps worrying that they have not yet demonstrated, to the complete satisfaction of their friends in the Commonwealth, that all is moving in the right direction.

There must, therefore, continue to be persuasion so that countries understand the importance of adhering to the values of the charter. The Commonwealth ministerial action group must take a more active role in chivvying, to ensure that people are not allowed quietly to forget, reject or abrogate the principles behind the charter. The CPA has a valuable role to play in that respect. It is not as effective as it could be. It is divided into nine regions, and a lot of valuable work is done, but more could be done if there was the will and if there were the resources.

What does the CPA do? It concentrates on strengthening parliamentary institutions. One has only to look around to see all sorts of possible improvements. Some Members of the House would say that improvements have to be made in the way Westminster works. We never reach a destination; there is always a desire to see how much more we can improve. However, bigger steps need to be taken in certain other countries. Many of those countries will look to this country for guidance, including help from Clerks about procedural matters or creating robust Standing Orders.

Given the churn rate of Members of Parliament in the different jurisdictions, people find themselves elected and then wonder what they have to do next. We can all learn from the interchanges that take place under the CPA’s auspices; we can learn from each other. We might say to someone, “Well, that’s interesting: I have that problem, but I didn’t know you had it as well. How do you tackle it?” There is mutual advantage in such exchanges. Similarly, strengthening parliamentary institutions is a topic for almost never-ending discussion.

There are also the diplomacy aspects. When parliamentarians talk to one another, whether in structured seminars or on their margins, when one meets afterwards for a meal or a drink, we begin to understand each other’s problems and points of view. That is not megaphone diplomacy; it is about quiet discussion and respecting the people we are with. There lies the strength of the interchanges I mentioned. Such things are, no doubt, easily mocked by the press. If someone strays outside their own jurisdiction to visit another, that may be seen as being somehow a diversion from their main duties, but it should not be, because such exchanges are extremely valuable. Strengthening Parliaments across the Commonwealth to improve the quality of governance is the key to their ultimate success in ensuring the prosperity and welfare of their people.

[Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)]

My right hon. Friend is talking a lot of sense about the interchange and networking opportunities in the Commonwealth. Is he aware that more than 70 organisations are linked inside the Commonwealth? They cover journalists, accountants, actuaries, local government officials and endless others, all of whom have an expanded network within the Commonwealth.

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. Yes, I am indeed aware of that. However, given that I happen to be the chairperson of the CPA, I thought I would concentrate on the organisation for which I have some responsibility, rather than range over the whole field. Of course I acknowledge what my hon. Friend says, as well as the need for many of the organisations he mentioned to work together. In some cases, what these different interests are trying to do overlaps, so if they co-operate and pool their resources, they can increase their impact and usefulness.

The CPA has the advantage of embracing the small states and the overseas territories, in a way that is not mirrored at Heads of Government level. We also have the separate Commonwealth Women Parliamentarians organisation, but it is not yet strong in all the CPA’s nine regions, and I am seeking to put that right. I am also seeking to have established the principle that the Commonwealth Youth Parliament should meet every year, because it has met just five times over the past 50 or 60 years, which is not enough. Young people expect continuity; they do not want to be picked up every now and then, asked, “Are you interested? Have you got something interesting to say?” and then forgotten about. There needs to be a continuing process whereby young people’s voices are heard at the highest level.

What is the Commonwealth? It is an extraordinary association of nations. When we celebrate it on Commonwealth day, we are entitled to extol its rich heritage and recognise its enormous reach. In 2013, I should like to see a significant deepening of social, economic, cultural and sporting links between Commonwealth countries—our nations, our citizens and, pre-eminently, our parliamentarians.

The Commonwealth’s theme this year is opportunities through enterprise, and that is opening up a whole new possibility for Commonwealth countries. In the past, their economic relationships were perhaps imbalanced; now there are more opportunities for trade and for taking a common position on trading matters in wider world bodies.

We will let ourselves down if we fail to engage in a continual programme of reform and renewal. An annual check-up such as this, at parliamentary level, is valuable and should continue. There is so much to think about; I have merely scratched the surface in general terms. There is so much to work towards. I fervently believe that all nations in our Commonwealth gain strength from developing their links and deepening their friendships.

[Several hon. Members]

rose—

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

Order. After that excellent start, let me announce how we will proceed with the rest of the debate. I will ask Sir Alan to respond to the debate for a couple of minutes before 4.30 pm. At 3.55 pm, I will call the Opposition spokesman. At no later than 4.10 pm, I will call the Minister. Several people have tried to catch my eye who have not informed the Speaker they wish to speak, but, being the nice chap I am, I will do my best to ensure everybody has a say. Given the numbers wishing to speak, I could impose a time limit, but I am not going to; I am going to rely on your good judgment. However, it would be helpful if you could restrain yourselves and make five-minute speeches; if you go over that, I am afraid somebody will lose out.

15:19

[Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)]

It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Hollobone. I have the privilege of serving under the chairmanship of the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) on the Administration Committee and the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association executive. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of leadership, and I think that the whole House would agree that he has provided leadership to the CPA at a worldwide level, in the 18 months since he took chairmanship of the executive committee.

I am conscious of the time and will restrict myself to brief observations on five areas. As has been mentioned, the CPA has a vital parliamentary strengthening role, as do the Commonwealth institutions themselves. The right hon. Gentleman was right to speak of a two-way learning process. The process at the general election was not all it could have been. There were queues in many cities, because of poor administration. In the light of the way many other Commonwealth countries run their elections, we may need to learn from them. There was also noteworthy turnout on a couple of recent occasions. I am wearing my Falkland Islands cufflinks for this debate: I received a letter today from the Minister about the 92% turnout in the referendum. If only we could have that in Northamptonshire or Dunfermline, I am sure that we would get similar acclamation. Turnout was similar in recent elections in overseas territories such as the British Virgin Islands and the Turks and Caicos Islands, at 80-plus per cent, which shows that we have things to learn. I hope that the Government will make a commitment to invite the CPA to send an election observer mission to the UK, as it did in 2010, for the next general election.

I am sure that the Minister will join me in welcoming the new Government of Malta, which were elected a couple of weeks ago. He will notice that that was a Labour landslide, ending 15 years of conservative rule. I hope that the UK will move a bit faster towards a change of Government.

An issue on which there is cross-party agreement is defence and security co-operation. My right hon. Friend the Member for East Renfrewshire (Mr Murphy), the shadow Defence Secretary, made an excellent speech at the end of last year, building on the comments of the Chief of the Defence Staff about what more the UK can do towards capacity building in defence and security, particularly in north and central Africa. The Chief of the Defence Staff was right to point out that there is a role that we can play; I hope that the Minister will outline the role that the Foreign Office and the Ministry of Defence think we should play in the Commonwealth countries of Africa, to build their capabilities and capacities at an early stage.

As someone who takes a keen interest in the overseas territories, Mr Hollobone, you will be aware that 90% of the biodiversity in the United Kingdom is contained in those territories. There has been something of a debate recently about turtle farming in the Cayman Islands, but there is a much broader issue about how the UK Government assist and support our overseas territories. Will the Minister briefly outline the support being provided to the overseas territories on various challenges not only by the FCO and the Department for International Development, but by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Department for Transport and the Department of Energy and Climate Change? Those challenges include—for DECC, for example—hydrocarbons in the Falkland Islands and the management of fishing stocks in the Caribbean.

The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden mentioned that sport is an important part of the Commonwealth, and I am sure that the Minister looks forward to the next Commonwealth games, which Scotland will host next year. I hope that he will take time out from his summer schedule to come and watch Scotland claim many well-deserved gold medals.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

I commend the hon. Gentleman’s excellent time keeping, which I hope will serve as an example to all.

15:24

[Mr Henry Bellingham (North West Norfolk) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to follow the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty). I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) for the way that he chairs the CPA and for his excellent opening speech.

I walked around Parliament square on Monday and was moved to see the flags of the founding members of the Commonwealth movement and of some of the largest and oldest members, and then those of the most recent members, notably Rwanda and Mozambique. That brought home to me the fact that countries want to join this extraordinary organisation.

I welcome the charter. The Commonwealth cannot stand still. Like any organisation, it must move forward. It is excellent that it has now got over some post-colonial hang-ups and guilt, and looks to the future as a truly extraordinary network of like-minded nations with a shared history. For the first time, with the charter, we have a single document setting out the core values and aspirations of the members of the Commonwealth.

One reason why I welcome the enhanced role of the ministerial action group, with the power to respond to violations of core values, is that without stability we cannot have flourishing business. I strongly believe that the trade and investment side of the Commonwealth is crucial. Commonwealth trade is worth £3 trillion—not dollars, but sterling. Indeed, the GDP of Commonwealth countries will overtake that of the EU by 2015. The opportunities are huge, and it is essential that Britain should make the most of them. I believe that we can do that and use some of those shared values—particularly shared legal systems and philosophies on regulatory frameworks—to our advantage. What does the Minister intend to do, along with UK Trade & Investment and other Departments, to make the most of those opportunities in future?

A role that the Commonwealth could pursue with enhanced vigour relates to regional trade integration. Trade Mark East Africa involves mainly Commonwealth countries and has been a great success in breaking down trade barriers between them. Above all, single points of entry between different countries have obviated the need for multiple checks at borders. The same is true also of a tripartite agreement that has been pioneered by the Southern African Development Community.

The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife mentioned the overseas territories, as did my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden, briefly. One of the key aspects of a recent White Paper on the overseas territories was enhanced engagement by other Departments. A unique selling point of that White Paper is that it harnesses the power, influence, knowledge and skills of other Departments to the benefit of those tiny territories, which lack capacity. I suggest that the Commonwealth can also play an important role in that approach. For example, it helped when the Turks and Caicos Islands had to go into special measures and came under direct rule. Thankfully, home rule has now been restored; but in the interim period, Canada put a great deal of effort and investment into the islands and, for example, seconded a police commissioner and deputy police commissioner there. Both those officers made a significant difference.

I want to mention the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting that is scheduled to take place in Colombo. I feel strongly that the future credibility of the Commonwealth is closely linked to its ability to uphold and protect the values set out in the new charter. We must be completely realistic. In spite of numerous warnings and the announcement of red lines, the conduct of the Sri Lankan Government and especially their attitude to accountability still leave a great deal to be desired. There is still a climate of fear and helplessness in the country.

I do not think that it is good enough for the Minister and the Foreign Secretary to say that they will make up their minds about whether Britain will attend the meeting. Her Majesty’s Government should work tirelessly with the secretariat to ensure that certain conditions and benchmarks are laid down for the CHOGM’s going ahead. It would be odd for the head of the Commonwealth, Her Majesty, not to attend a CHOGM. In fact, a CHOGM would not be complete without the head of the Commonwealth.

I agree with my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden that the Commonwealth has done some excellent work over the past few years, but a great deal of progress can still be made. I do not want to see that progress undermined by what will be a long drawn-out debate on Governments’ attendance of CHOGM, because we need action, we need benchmarks and we need conditions.

15:30

[Mike Gapes (Ilford South) (Lab/Co-op)]

It is a pleasure to follow the former Minister, the hon. Member for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham). I completely agree with his remarks on Sri Lanka and the CHOGM. I will not refer to what I said in the previous debate; people can read Hansard tomorrow to see what I said.

It is important that we recognise the enormous potential in the Commonwealth, but, as the report published by the Select Committee on Foreign Affairs at the end of last year made clear, the Commonwealth is currently failing to realise that potential. The report also criticised the Government and stated that

“the FCO’s rhetoric about the importance of the Commonwealth is not being matched by its actions.”

I exempt the hon. Member for North West Norfolk and the former Minister in the Lords, Lord Howell, from that criticism, but there is an issue with how the Government, including Departments such as the Department for Education, collectively work with Commonwealth institutions and organisations. More could be done to build on the Commonwealth networks, to which the Chairman of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Croydon South (Richard Ottaway), referred in his intervention.

We also criticised the past closure of diplomatic missions, particularly in the Pacific, Swaziland—I have personal experience as a former Voluntary Service Overseas teacher in Swaziland—and Lesotho. There is a question on how seriously our current approach accounts for the fact that we no longer have diplomatic representation in a number of Commonwealth countries. Those countries may be small, but they are politically significant in an organisation that works through consensus.

There is also a question about the BBC World Service, which we referred to in our report. The Chairman of the Select Committee and I visited the World Service’s excellent new facilities this morning.

In the time left to me, I will address the role of the Commonwealth and the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association in building capacity and developing democracy. I declare an interest, because the CPA sent me on a capacity-building mission to the Maldives in November 2011. Sadly, within three months there was an engineered coup in which the democratically elected President, Mohamed Nasheed, was removed. His successor, President Waheed, embarked on various measures in an assault on democracy, including the harassment and arrest of members of the Opposition. Former President Nasheed had to seek refuge in the Indian high commission, and, having left the high commission, he was recently arrested. That is all part of a ploy to try to stop a truly democratic election from taking place.

That is shocking to me, because my discussions with members of that country’s embryonic democratic institutions in November 2011 convinced me that there was a role, which the FCO facilitated, in helping to build a committee structure, in training and in democracy-building. All that is being set back by the events of the past year and a half. I hope the CPA and the British Government will continue to press for a truly free and fair election in the Maldives and for a democratic outcome that is acceptable, not just to the people of the Maldives, but to the democratic values of the international community.

15:35

[Mr Robin Walker (Worcester) (Con)]

It is a pleasure to speak under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I thank the Backbench Business Committee for agreeing to this debate, and I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) on securing it.

I will begin by reading the first paragraph of the Commonwealth charter that Her Majesty the Queen signed this week:

“Recognising that in an era of changing economic circumstances and uncertainty, new trade and economic patterns, unprecedented threats to peace and security, and a surge in popular demands for democracy, human rights and broadened economic opportunities, the potential of and need for the Commonwealth—as a compelling force for good and as an effective network for co-operation and for promoting development—has never been greater”.

That neatly summarises some of the points that have already been made on the importance of trade and human rights in the Commonwealth and the value of the new charter.

My comments will focus on creating a proper sense of ownership of the Commonwealth in all those countries across the world that belong to it. Often, when listening to debates in this House, people might think that the Commonwealth is something that belongs to Britain. Of course, it is not; it is an organisation, a network, in which we have an important role, but of which we are only one member.

As my right hon. Friend pointed out, the Commonwealth represents 30% of the world’s population and a huge number of young people—there is a huge amount of dynamism. The Commonwealth also represents a huge proportion of the world’s resources. In the ever smaller and ever more interconnected world in which we live, the Commonwealth has an important role in meeting the world’s need for resources. Companies such as Shell talk about the resource nexus between energy, water and food becoming greater than ever.

Member countries such as Australia and Canada are resource rich, and member countries such as India are immense consumers of the world’s resources and have an ever greater role in the world’s economy. We must ensure that all those countries feel ownership of the Commonwealth and accept that they have a part to play in defining its future. As we debate such things, it is important that we encourage Parliaments in those countries to engage with and take ownership of that agenda. I would like to see the Commonwealth charter as the beginning of that process, and not as the end.

In a week in which we have seen another great international organisation, the papacy, pass from the old world to the new, it is a good time to look at Britain’s place in the world and consider where we ought to be trading and to which organisations we should be reaching out. The Commonwealth is undoubtedly one of those organisations.

My late father made his maiden speech in the House of Commons on the importance of Commonwealth trade, and in that speech he said that we should not give up the enormous potential of trade with the world and with the Commonwealth for the “potage” of opportunities in the so-called common market of Europe. Many Conservative colleagues might feel that we have gone too far down that route over the years, but, as my hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham) has pointed out, with the Commonwealth set to overtake the EU in GDP in 2015, it is an important relationship for the future.

I want briefly to touch on a couple of issues that we have not yet heard about in this debate: the importance of collaboration on education across the Commonwealth and the importance of reaching out to students from across the Commonwealth, as the Prime Minister recently did in India, to persuade them to come to study in the UK. In his speech in 1961, my father said that we should seek to create a Harvard Business School for the Commonwealth. If we had such an institution, it would be enormously valuable in the 21st-century world. We should be looking at the opportunities for Britain to reach out, to engage and to play an active role in the Commonwealth, and we should ensure that we are humble about our position. We should feel not that we own that organisation but that we are an active and engaged member along with the other major powers and great nations that form the 21st-century Commonwealth.

15:39

[Simon Hughes (Bermondsey and Old Southwark) (LD)]

I am happy to serve under you, Mr Hollobone. I am grateful to my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) for not only his introduction to the debate but his work the year round.

I want to make four brief points; first, to commend the Select Committee report and the Government’s positive response to many of the recommendations. As a Parliament, it is good that we understand that the Commonwealth is a vital part of our foreign affairs, that it consists of our oldest friends and that the club of which we are the oldest member—or, the oldest club of which we are a member—is one that we sustain, encourage, build up and support. I have always been a fan of the Commonwealth, not to the exclusion of support for the European Union or the English-speaking world, but because they are all complementary. It plays to our strengths but, under all Governments, we have never given the Commonwealth the priority that it deserves. My first request to the Minister therefore is for the Government, as suggested by the Select Committee report, to look at and beef up our commitment to Commonwealth in all ways and all Departments, to show that we want to be a serious player.

Various areas could be usefully prioritised. In a second, I will come back to one that has already been the subject of a debate, but last week we had a good debate in the main Chamber about the death penalty elsewhere in the world, about the people on death row in India with the return to executions in that country. We could reasonably seek to persuade those Commonwealth countries that still have the death penalty that it is not a necessary part of a law and order policy, which is better without it. To work with our friends in India and other countries would be helpful. We also need to persuade other countries such as Uganda that persecuting homosexuals is not appropriate for a Commonwealth Government. We need to ensure the right support for people of all backgrounds, colours, castes, faiths, sexes and sexuality, irrespective of where in the Commonwealth they come from. I am also keen that we elaborate and clarify our commitment to the educational exchanges which have been touched on for students from Commonwealth countries. We have cut back on Commonwealth student scholarships, which is a short-sighted failure, because building up historic links that have been present for a long time is hugely important.

Secondly, I want to say a word about Sri Lanka. I greatly appreciate the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham), recently a Minister in the FCO. We cannot be supportive of the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting going on in Sri Lanka without a sea change in the attitude of the Sri Lankan Government. I do not have an antipathy to Sinhalese people, a Sinhalese Government or a Sinhalese President but clearly, over the years, the minority communities and in particular the Tamils have been ill served. Tests include the disappearance and assassination of journalists, one of the lowest rated categorisations for press freedom in the world and an inability for foreign countries and agencies such as the UN or the Red Cross to be present in the country freely. Sri Lanka has to change. I know the FCO position and that we are withholding our engagement, but unless there is significant change our response needs to be stronger.

Thirdly, I have had a long interest in Cyprus. I congratulate President Anastasiades on his recent election as the President of Cyprus. There is an opportunity to resolve the half-century of dispute over Cyprus—in effect, since its independence from the United Kingdom. There is good will in the north, in the unrecognised Government of northern Cyprus, and I hope for huge encouragement from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.

Finally, I have a request that the Minister knows is coming: the Commonwealth Youth Exchange Council, in which I have had a part over the years, has lost its funding from the British Council and needs about £100,000 a year in public support to keep it going. It does great work and changes the lives of thousands; I hope that the FCO will find a way to support it continuing into the future.

15:44

[Mr David Amess (Southend West) (Con)]

I congratulate my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) on securing the debate and on his leadership of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association. Last year, I had the privilege of being part of a delegation he led to Sri Lanka for the 58th conference, at which a commitment was given in the hope that all CPA members would hold a debate annually at around this time of year, so I am glad that we are having the debate. I also pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham) for his role in such matters.

The Commonwealth is an extraordinary and wonderful organisation of which, frankly, we do not make enough. I am delighted to have the charter described in a little detail by my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden. In particular, I praise article IX, which recognises the need for sustainable development, and article X, which declares that we need to conserve our natural ecosystems.

The only country that I want to mention specifically is the Maldives, so I am glad that the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) did so as well. I declare my interest, which is as chair of the all-party British-Maldives group. I do not wish to be critical of our Government, whether past or present. President Gayoom, however, had led the Maldives for 30 years, and democracy is not easily developed or won. We gave plenty of support to the elections in 2008, but the idea that that was fine, that democracy was then up and running and that we could move away could not be further from the truth. Without boring the Chamber and going into lots of detail, a number of issues should have been dealt with more robustly, as the hon. Gentleman said. Nevertheless, I meet regularly with the high commissioner, and I am glad that the upcoming elections appear to be on track. At our meeting only two weeks ago, I was reassured that the elections would be fair and free, with former President Nasheed a likely and unhindered participant. Perhaps my right hon. Friend the Minister might reflect on that and, when he has time, write to us in a little more detail. The point I wanted to make is that the Commonwealth should help in every way it possibly can, not only with observers but in the build-up to the elections. Some may say, “Oh, the Maldives, wonderful holiday resort”, but life in the Maldives for many people is not like that. It would be a great shame if we abandoned this fledgling democracy.

I am optimistic about the future of the Commonwealth. I salute the charter, which sets out clearly some important principles to which all Commonwealth nations should adhere and probably already do. That is not to say that there are not huge challenges: many hundreds of millions of Commonwealth subjects still live in poverty; many children do not have access to education; and AIDS is still rife in many member states. I would not claim to have all the answers, but we are much stronger working within the Commonwealth than alone. Our shared cultures and close trading ties are pivotal, and I hope to see a renewed and continually developing Commonwealth emerge over the coming years.

15:39

[Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)]

I, too, congratulate the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) on securing and leading the debate and on his work at the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, which he serves with great distinction.

The Commonwealth is an extraordinary organisation and family of nations, bringing together shared values, often a shared language and shared culture, with sporting links and many other dimensions of what I suppose these days we call soft relations or soft power. It is important to emphasise the importance of the Commonwealth as an avenue for the exercise of soft power, in contrast to many much more formalised, rigid and confrontational international arenas. The Commonwealth is enormously important in that.

Some Commonwealth members deserve particular attention; the one probably most at risk in terms of the shared values and international relations is Pakistan. The Commonwealth and the British Government should certainly be doing their utmost to support the traditions of democracy, freedom, peace, security and human rights in that country, while not underestimating the threats posed to it by internal and external forces. The terrible but inspiring case of Malala Yousafzai, who had to struggle first for her education and then for her very life against some of those forces, is instructive. Perhaps it has started to shift some of the political forces within Pakistan. The more that we can celebrate the courage of people such as Malala through the Commonwealth and other arenas, the more that we can support Pakistan in protecting those traditions.

Reference has been made to Sri Lanka as the host of the next Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting. The Queen, as head of the Commonwealth, must attend the meeting, but her health has been frail lately and it is conceivable that she might be unable to attend. The reasons would be purely innocent, as we understand that her personal commitment to the Commonwealth is strong. If she attends, it will be difficult for the British Government not to attend, because we would not want to embarrass Her Majesty. If she does not attend for other reasons, it might provide an opportunity to reflect on whether Britain should attend the meeting. At the moment, only the Canadian Government are saying that they will not attend, but we must reflect on the situation in Sri Lanka and make a stand if we can.

The Government in Sri Lanka stand accused of war crimes, a politically motivated impeachment process and dismissal of their own chief justice this January. They are also accused of continuing human rights abuses in the form of disappearances, a culture of impunity and a misuse of security laws. In its 2012 annual report, Amnesty said of Sri Lanka:

“The government continued to arbitrarily detain, torture or ill-treat people and subject people to enforced disappearance. It failed to address most instances of impunity for violations of human rights and humanitarian law. The government rejected repeated allegations of war crimes committed by both sides of the conflict that ended in 2009, prompting Amnesty International to reiterate calls for an independent international investigation.”

I am afraid—this is beginning to sound a little critical—that there are other examples of the Commonwealth sometimes not living up to all its values. I accept, as the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden said in his introduction, that we cannot expect every nation to proceed in step with us through the democratic reforms and the expansion of human rights that we have experienced, but it is something of a matter of shame that no fewer than 36 of the 58 countries where capital punishment is still lawful are Commonwealth countries and that many of those countries still criminalise homosexuality and have a hostile response to gay rights. When the Prime Minister called for Commonwealth countries to reconsider the criminalisation of homosexuality, some countries responded positively—Malawi began to repeal legislation—but others, such as Uganda, went in the opposite direction. It is important to emphasise the totality of human rights for all Commonwealth citizens.

Zimbabwe is not currently a member of the Commonwealth, but I think that many people would still regard it as part of the family of Commonwealth nations. Again, if the Commonwealth can do anything to support the conduct of the forthcoming elections in Zimbabwe, so that they are free and fair, and to support the people there trying to establish Zimbabwe as a thorough democracy once again, that would be valuable.

The right hon. Member for Saffron Walden referred briefly to the Commonwealth ministerial action group. Such groups and the secretary-general’s office need to be a bit more active and assertive in giving the Commonwealth teeth to promote in various countries the shared values expressed brilliantly in the charter. There is room for domestic effort as well. The Foreign Affairs Committee referred to the BBC World Service, and my right hon. Friend the Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) rightly referred to student visas. Student links are part of what makes soft cultural relationships valuable, and we must reinforce them at all opportunities.

15:54

[Kerry McCarthy (Bristol East) (Lab)]

As ever, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr Hollobone. I congratulate the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) on securing this debate and thank the Backbench Business Committee for scheduling it during the week when we celebrate Commonwealth day. As we have heard, there is much to celebrate, including our trading links with other Commonwealth countries, our cultural links and the number of students who come to study in this country and who go from the UK to other countries. I understand that the trade in goods within the Commonwealth is now worth £250 billion each year. This year’s Commonwealth day theme, “Opportunity through enterprise”, focuses on how the benefits of the Commonwealth can be shared by all members and citizens.

As the Commonwealth Secretariat states:

“Commonwealth Day is an opportunity to promote understanding on global issues, international co-operation and Commonwealth’s organisations, which aim to improve the lives of its citizens.”

It is therefore important that we use the day not only to consider the Commonwealth’s successes but, if we are to improve the lives of its citizens, to consider its shortcomings.

In addition to shared history in many cases, the Commonwealth is bound—it is said—by the shared values of democracy, freedom, peace, the rule of law and opportunity for all. As we heard from many participants in this debate, that is not always the case. There are concerns about human rights and democracy in several Commonwealth countries, and I will touch on those in a moment, but the idea of the Commonwealth as an institution with those shared values was underlined on Monday by the Queen’s signing the Commonwealth charter as Head of the Commonwealth, setting out the shared values and commitments agreed by all Heads of Government. The charter has been widely welcomed, and it includes many important principles. I welcome its focus on democracy, human rights, international peace and security, good governance and the rule of law.

The charter highlights levels of poverty in many Commonwealth countries and the threat of climate change, emphasising the need for sustainable development and the duty to protect the environment. It includes access to health, education, food and shelter, essentials that some Commonwealth citizens can now take for granted but that remain unobtainable for far too many. In many ways, the charter illustrates the diversity, and indeed inequality, within the Commonwealth. It could provide a basis for reducing the inequality while continuing to respect and celebrate the diversity. I agree entirely with the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden that we should not enforce exactly the same criteria across the Commonwealth; we should tolerate diversity within the Commonwealth and accept people’s right to their own way of doing things. However, in some areas, we must try to unify the Commonwealth around a certain set of values.

The Foreign Affairs Committee report on the role and future of the Commonwealth noted that

“the moral authority of the Commonwealth has too often been undermined by the repressive actions of member governments.”

I now turn briefly to that issue. Over the weekend, the charter was lauded by some as a landmark development for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender equality, but the rights of LGBT people and the unacceptable discrimination that they still face were not mentioned in the charter. Gender equality is specifically included, and I certainly agree with the charter’s assertion that

“the advancement of women’s rights and the education of girls are critical preconditions for effective and sustainable development.”

There is also a clause on tolerance, respect and understanding, explicitly covering religious freedom and

“respect and dignity for all human beings”,

but there is no reference to the LGBT community. It has been inferred that clause 2 covers the issue. I certainly endorse the commitment to the universal declaration of human rights and the opposition to all forms of discrimination, but given that the charter goes on to specify

“discrimination…rooted in gender, race, colour, creed and political belief”,

sexuality is a startling omission.

I accept that when charters explicitly cover religious freedom, it often comes into conflict with LGBT rights, but we must address the issue, particularly as 41 Commonwealth countries—three quarters of them—still criminalise homosexuality. There is still the prospect of the anti-homosexuality Bill in Uganda, which has caused many people grave concern, and similar legislation in Nigeria could increase the penalties for gay couples or same-sex displays of affection. In Cameroon, 13 people were arrested under anti-homosexuality laws between March 2011 and 2012, and in South Africa, a 24-year-old activist was brutally raped and murdered, seemingly because she was gay and a human rights activist campaigning for LGBT rights. Two years later, no one has been arrested.

I do not want to dwell too much on the negative in my remarks. There have been more promising signs, particularly in the Caribbean. In Trinidad and Tobago, where homosexual acts can be punished with up to 25 years in prison and it is illegal for gay people to enter the country, the Prime Minister reportedly wrote to the Kaleidoscope Trust to confirm that she will act to put an end to all discrimination based on gender or sexual orientation. She shares the view that

“the stigmatisation of homosexuality in Trinidad and Tobago is a matter which must be addressed on the grounds of human rights and dignity to which every individual is entitled under international law.”

In Jamaica, where there are also anti-homosexuality laws and reports of attacks and harassment of gay people, the Prime Minister has said that no one should be discriminated against because of their sexual orientation.

With apologies for focusing on the negative, the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) raised the issue of the death penalty. It is another area of concern that is touched on in the charter’s clauses on human rights, the rule of law and justice, but it is not explicitly referenced. As the Foreign Affairs Committee has noted, 36 of the 58 countries where capital punishment is lawful are Commonwealth members. Although some of those countries are abolitionist in practice, in that they do not carry out the death penalty, their citizens are still sentenced to death and so remain on death row indefinitely. The UK’s long-standing position is to support the abolition of the death penalty in all circumstances. Will the Minister tell us to what extent we have led discussions on the death penalty and LGBT rights within the Commonwealth, with respect to other countries’ rights to determine their own policies?

Finally, I want to touch on the Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting, which has been mentioned by several speakers, both in this debate and the earlier one on human rights. I was interested to hear the Minister say that the UK Government’s position on whether we would attend CHOGM was not decided. In a previous debate, I got the impression from one of his colleagues that it was fairly set in stone that the UK would attend and that the UK Government were not prepared to use the fact that CHOGM is approaching in Colombo in November as leverage to try to persuade the Sri Lankan Government to do more on the human rights agenda. The right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) suggested that that was an ideal opportunity, and I think the hon. Member for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham) mentioned that as well. It is important that we do not just allow Sri Lanka to use the CHOGM to promote the regime and present itself as a wonderful country. It is in some respects a wonderful country—it is an amazing country to visit on holiday—but we should use the intervening period between now and November to put pressure on the Government to make some progress.

As I have said, I apologise if I have dwelt too much on the negative, but it is because I think the Commonwealth has achieved a great deal. I was in Uganda a few years ago, just before it was due to host CHOGM. It was interesting that people all over Kampala were not at all interested that the Prime Minister or any other UK politicians were coming to visit; they were interested that the Queen and Prince Charles were coming. All their questions were about that. It was clear to me how important they felt their place within the Commonwealth was and how privileged they felt to be able to host CHOGM that year. CHOGM is immensely valuable for Britain and the other countries that take part, but we should also use it to try to make progress on progressive values and to address the issues of poverty within the Commonwealth, as well environmental issues and all those other issues, otherwise it becomes something to celebrate, but not something that helps to change the world.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

Before calling the Minister, I remind him to leave a few minutes at the end for the right hon. Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) to respond to this most interesting debate.

16:03

[The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr Hugo Swire)]

The Minister will, Mr Hollobone, therefore want to make a degree of progress. I start by congratulating my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden (Sir Alan Haselhurst) on securing this important debate and expressing his thoughts on the subject so eloquently, based on the knowledge we all know he has. I highlight his valuable contribution to the work of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association.

This is the first time the House of Commons has held a debate on the Commonwealth during Commonwealth week, and I hope it will become a precedent. I know that my hon. Friend the Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham), the founder of the all-party group for the Commonwealth, is determined that it becomes a regular feature of the parliamentary calendar, and I pay tribute to his success as he stands down as the group’s chairman. I also thank right hon. and hon. Members for their thoughtful contributions. I will answer the specific questions raised by Members throughout my speech, and if I have enough time at the end, I will try to answer other questions.

I do not want to introduce a partisan element into what has been a wholly unpartisan debate, but perhaps the hon. Member for Ilford South (Mike Gapes) had his tongue slightly in his cheek when he questioned how seriously the Government take the Commonwealth. He talked about the closure of diplomatic missions. As someone who has been going around the world re-opening diplomatic missions after the neglect of the past 13 years, I imagine he was just gently teasing us. The coalition agreement sets out our vision

“to strengthen the Commonwealth as a focus for promoting democratic values and development.”

That is essential if we are to build a Commonwealth fit for the 21st century. It is right that we take the opportunity provided by Commonwealth day, and, indeed, Commonwealth week, to look at how far the Commonwealth has come in the past year, and where it needs to go next.

In response to my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden, I will focus my remarks on the Commonwealth charter. Agreed in the year of the diamond jubilee, the charter was signed by Her Majesty the Queen on Commonwealth day. Her Majesty is, of course, a staunch advocate of the work of the Commonwealth, which she heads. The charter’s agreement marked a major milestone in the promotion of democratic values across the Commonwealth. For the first time in its 64-year history, the Commonwealth has a single statement defining the core values for which it stands. They are the values that member nations think are important enough to bring together in one single document; values which affect the lives of millions across the Commonwealth every day.

As the hon. Member for Cheltenham (Martin Horwood) and several others have made clear, it is simply untrue to say that all Commonwealth countries already adhere without exception to every value in the charter. By setting them out and agreeing to aspire to them, however, we are on the road to ensuring that they become common currency across the Commonwealth. I agree with the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy) and the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark (Simon Hughes) when they talked about the role of the charter and what Commonwealth countries can do on LGBT issues. We fundamentally believe that we should do much more and we remain concerned by recent attempts in several Commonwealth states to introduce punitive laws on homosexuality. As is well known, the coalition Government are committed to upholding the rights and freedoms of LGBT people in all circumstances. We are clear that discrimination is never acceptable. It is important that these countries agree and have a goal to aim towards, because the Commonwealth’s future credibility is closely linked to its ability to uphold and protect core democratic values.

In recent years the Commonwealth’s reputation as an organisation based on values has been tarnished by a perceived silence on human rights concerns. We have heard today about concerns on the political will in some Commonwealth countries to uphold the values to which they have committed under the charter. That undermines the credibility of the Commonwealth, which is why we are working to strengthen how the Commonwealth promotes and protects its values. We believe that the commitments in the charter should be upheld, adhered to and kept under constant review. Making the Commonwealth ministerial action group that acts on those concerns stronger and more proactive is crucial. The group responded well to the crisis in Maldives, which I will come to in a minute, and its continued engagement is important.

In common with other international organisations, the Commonwealth must evolve constantly if it is to keep pace with changes in the wider world. That is particularly the case with trade and investment, as was pointed out by my hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk (Mr Bellingham). In this year of “Opportunity through Enterprise”—the Commonwealth’s theme in 2013—we must all work to strengthen the Commonwealth’s focus on trade and prosperity.

In order to increase the UK’s prosperity, we must work with and through every relevant international organisation to which we have access. In the case of trade, the EU, for example, represents 500 million people and 21 million companies. However, it is not only a question of trading with one organisation, or with just one country or another; it is about trading with all of them. I gently remind my hon. Friend the Member for Worcester (Mr Walker) that it is necessary to compare our trade within the EU and recognise that trade with the Commonwealth is something that we should concentrate and focus on, and grow, but it is not likely to be a replacement, tempting though that may be for many Members of the House, for the vast levels of trade that we do in the EU currently. I and my colleagues in the Government look forward to supporting work across the Commonwealth to boost intra-Commonwealth trade, which I believe can act as a catalyst for change.

The Commonwealth is a natural place for us to do business. Among its members are some of the world’s fastest growing economies—one thinks of India, where incidentally, we have just opened more offices, in Chandigarh and Hyderabad, as well as Nigeria, South Africa, Malaysia or Singapore. However, we need to see a more structured approach to taking advantage of the in-built benefits that the Commonwealth offers us on trade: our shared principles of democracy, the rule of law, good governance and our similar legal systems. We should do all that we can to strengthen those attributes, because that will help to create the conditions for trade to flourish between Commonwealth countries. That means tackling corruption, cutting unnecessary red-tape, and promoting transparency and accountability.

[Mr Robin Walker]

The Minister is absolutely right to talk about promoting transparency and accountability. He may be interested to know that the all-party group on the extractive industries, which I attended yesterday, heard from the high commissioner from Tanzania about approaches that have been made by the Commonwealth Business Council to establish best-practice working, in terms of encouraging transparency in the extractive industries. Does he agree that we should be looking to support that model across the Commonwealth?

[Mr Swire]

I most certainly do, and not only across the Commonwealth. We have been encouraging that in Burma, with some considerable success, but it is precisely that level of expertise that the Commonwealth can bring to countries that need it.

What are we doing for other, smaller countries? The hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife (Thomas Docherty) asked what we were doing to improve the links between the Commonwealth and the overseas territories, and what support Her Majesty’s Government provide through Departments to overseas territories. As our White Paper on the overseas territories, which was published last year, makes clear, the scale of the challenge facing the overseas territories is simply beyond the means of one or two Government Departments. Our commitment is to a whole-of-Government approach. As the White Paper says:

“We want to strengthen interaction between the Territories and UK Government Departments and local Government. Each UK Department has now assumed responsibility for supporting the Territories…in its own areas of competence and expertise. Departments have published papers setting out how they can provide support for and work with the Territories.”

We are now putting those commitments into action.

The hon. Gentleman also asked what we were doing in terms of defence and security building in Africa through the Commonwealth, and bilaterally. All I can say is that the Department for International Development’s £48 million Nigeria Infrastructure Advisory Facility is supporting interventions in power and transport. A business case has been pulled together to increase the programme budget to £98 million. NIAF is playing a major role on power sector reform, which is the highest profile and most important economic activity and reform under way. We are in the process of preparing support to scale up Mombasa port development, for example, to the value of about $42 million. The programme is a mixture of hardware and software support.

The right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark, and other hon. Members, rightly raised what I consider to be the elephant in the room—the issues of CHOGM and Sri Lanka, and the attendance of the Government. The Government of Sri Lanka, as we all know, face considerable challenges in building a sustainable peace for all Sri Lankans, and they do so with the support of an international community eager to see lasting peace. However, with that support comes scrutiny and expectations of genuine progress, and in 2013 that will be particularly intense. This month, another country resolution on Sri Lanka is before the UN Human Rights Council. The UK co-sponsored a resolution last year and we will strongly support the United States follow-up resolution on Sri Lanka later this month. Come November, whichever countries attend, and at whatever level, CHOGM—which marks the beginning of Sri Lanka’s two-year tenure as chair-in-office of the Commonwealth—will be an opportunity either for Sri Lanka to showcase its progress, or for pressure and attention to be drawn to a lack of it.

Some hon. Members suggested that the UK should not be represented at a high level at this meeting. I can state on the record, absolutely clearly, that we have not yet made any decisions about UK attendance. I would also like to put something on the record—this was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for North West Norfolk and the hon. Member for Cheltenham—about Her Majesty’s attendance. It is absolutely clear that the Queen attends CHOGM as head of the Commonwealth, not the UK Head of State. Her attendance is not a decision for the UK Government; if she were to ask for advice, it would be from all Commonwealth members.

We look to Sri Lanka, as with any CHOGM host, to demonstrate commitment to Commonwealth values, which was a point made by the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for North East Bedfordshire (Alistair Burt), during his recent visit to Sri Lanka. During that visit he raised our concerns with the Sri Lankan Government and urged the full implementation of recommendations from Sri Lanka’s Lessons Learnt and Reconciliation Commission, as well as wider measures on accountability. Although some progress has been made in Sri Lanka, we are clear that much more is needed. We are aware that members of the Commonwealth ministerial action group share those concerns.

I turn to an issue raised by the hon. Member for Ilford South and my hon. Friend the Member for Southend West (Mr Amess). We support the Commonwealth’s work on the Maldives. CMAG’s decisive and timely engagement with the Maldives during the political crisis last year was a demonstration of its commitment to implement a stronger mandate. As the Commonwealth continues to offer technical assistance to help strengthen the judiciary and other key democratic institutions there, the UK will maintain contact with all parties in the Maldives and with engaged international partners. Our shared goal is a stable, peaceful and democratic future for the Maldivian people. We welcomed, at the time, the appointment of Sir Donald McKinnon in March last year as the Commonwealth special envoy. He has used his extensive expertise and experience to work with all the parties. Both he and the Commonwealth secretary-general have stressed the importance of moving forward to “free, fair and inclusive” elections in the Maldives. Sir Donald was most recently there in January. We have sought and received assurances from President Waheed that any trial of former President Nasheed will be fair and free from political interference. We look to the Maldivian authorities to ensure that due process is followed and that legal proceedings are fair and transparent.

The Government remain committed to the Commonwealth and to the values set out in its charter. This financial year, UK contributions to Commonwealth organisations will amount to approximately £40 million, and we look forward to hosting the Commonwealth games in Glasgow in July 2014. I very much look forward to being entertained at that time by the hon. Member for Dunfermline and West Fife, and I readily accept the hospitality that he has proffered to me—at least that is the way that I chose to interpret his earlier point.

We are clear that we must capitalise on all the networks and relationships at our disposal in order to promote the UK’s prosperity, stability and security. The Commonwealth—a long-standing network of old friends, as I think the right hon. Member for Bermondsey and Old Southwark described them—lends itself perfectly to that ambition.

I firmly believe that the Commonwealth can and will go from strength to strength. In a world of many bilateral and multilateral regional agreements and associations, the Commonwealth still offers something unique, and countries recognise that. It is an important institution that many outside the club want to join, and through dedication and reform, it can become stronger and speak with a louder voice than ever before.

I encourage all hon. Members to get involved with the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, so ably chaired by my right hon. Friend the Member for Saffron Walden, and with the all-party group for the Commonwealth. We should leave outside observers in no doubt that the Commonwealth matters to this House, to the British people and to this Government. The United Kingdom will remain steadfast in its support for the organisation, working with it and through it to make the Commonwealth more efficient, more focused and ever more relevant in today’s world.

16:20

[Sir Alan Haselhurst]

Thank you, Mr Hollobone, for allowing me to say a few words to wind up the debate. I thank those colleagues who have participated. I thank the shadow Minister, the hon. Member for Bristol East (Kerry McCarthy), and the Minister. We have had a good demonstration of why such a debate is very appropriate for us to conduct.

Much has been said—rightly, because of the timing—regarding the Commonwealth charter. I hope that now that Commonwealth countries have set their hand to it, it will be seen as something to be promulgated on every occasion, a constant reminder of what the Commonwealth is for and something that may give hope to people, wherever they may be in the Commonwealth, who despair of their future, or who feel at the moment disadvantaged or oppressed, that there is a standard to which to aspire and to which we are all trying to work.

It is pretty evident from everything that has been said that we are all conscious here of the need for good governance at the centre of any state that professes to be a democracy. There is continuing work to be done, and parliamentarians, along with all those others who are in the different Commonwealth networks, have a particular responsibility to ensure that the basic conditions of democracy are met throughout the nations of the Commonwealth.

I made the suggestion to the Sri Lankan Government a few months back and also to the Commonwealth Secretariat that perhaps it would be helpful—reassuring, indeed—if we were to stage a Commonwealth democracy forum as part of the proceedings of the CHOGM, because parliamentarians other than the Heads of Government have not had a particularly prominent role at a CHOGM. Many other organisations of a civil nature have done that, so it is rather strange that parliamentarians have been somewhat subdued in this context. The idea has not so far been progressed, but I think that it would be a useful symbol, linked with the charter, to show what parliamentarians are all about.

If we in the United Kingdom really do attach importance to the Commonwealth, as many of my hon. Friends have demonstrated today, we should, I believe, mark that attachment by a debate every year, akin to an annual review, because there will be just as many issues to discuss a year from now as we have heard about today. Therefore, although I reiterate my thanks to the Backbench Business Committee for providing us with this opportunity in Commonwealth week, I ask the Government please to note that there will be, a year from now, another Commonwealth day and therefore there will be the same pressure to hold and interest in holding a debate of this kind, perhaps with more time available for it.

I thank the Minister in particular for what he said towards the end of his speech, which seemed to echo my interest in establishing the precedent of this debate, and therefore I hope that throughout the House there will be enthusiasm and persistence to try to ensure that an occasion as valuable as this becomes a regular feature of the parliamentary calendar.

[Mr Philip Hollobone (in the Chair)]

I thank all right hon. and hon. Members for taking part in a most interesting debate.

Question put and agreed to.

16:24

Sitting adjourned.

Written Ministerial Statements

Thursday 14th March 2013 Written Statements

Thursday 14 March 2013

“Employment Law 2013: Progress on Reform”

Thursday 14th March 2013 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills (Jo Swinson)]

The Government want to ensure that the UK has the best framework of employment law to create a flexible and fair labour market, which is necessary to support economic growth. It enables employers to turn demand into jobs and enables individuals to find and keep jobs that suit them.

The UK labour market currently performs well. Over a million private sector jobs have been created in the last two years. With employment at 29.7 million there are now more people in employment than ever before. Businesses are creating jobs at a rapid rate and we believe that our “light and even” employment regulation regime has helped in this. But some businesses believe that UK employment laws are burdensome and have generated perverse incentives that encourage workers to seek out the courts rather than mediation.

Through the Employment Law Review we are looking at all aspects of regulation affecting the employment relationship and employment life-cycle with the aim of reducing unnecessary burdens and making the underpinning legislation as simple and effective as possible while protecting essential worker rights. Our aim is to ensure that regulation is targeted appropriately, keeping the state out of areas where the parties are best placed to manage the employment relationship themselves.

Today the Government are publishing “Employment Law 2013: Progress on Reform” which sets out our continuing vision of creating a flexible, effective and fair labour market. It outlines key achievements made to date and looks ahead to ongoing and future work streams to support this.

We are also publishing the Government response on the recommendations following the “Fundamental Review of Employment Tribunal Rules” by Mr Justice Underhill.

Mr Justice Underhill made a number of recommendations to simplify and streamline the employment tribunals system and has drafted new rules of procedure for employment tribunals, which the Government have consulted on. In addition. Government also took the opportunity to ask some questions about the non-payment of employment tribunal awards. The Government, alongside Mr Justice Underhill, have considered all the responses to the consultation, and where appropriate, have reflected these changes in the new rules of procedure. Other responses may be considered as part of the presidential guidance, which will be drafted by the presidents of the employment tribunal in England, Wales and Scotland to accompany the new rules.

The main changes include:

New procedures aimed at addressing potentially weak claims and more robust case management;

Presidential guidance to help ensure that judges are dealing with hearings in a consistent manner which ensures parties know what to expect and what is expected of them;

A simplified procedure for withdrawing and dismissing claims;

A new procedure for preliminary hearings that combine separate pre-hearing reviews and case management discussions.

It is the Government’s intention that the new rules of procedure will be published to coincide with the introduction of employment tribunal fees, which will require additional changes to the rules of procedure. Government believe that while the original intention was to introduce the Underhill changes to the rules in April, it is preferable to make both sets of changes to the rules of procedure at the same time, rather than in a piecemeal way. This will allow users of the system to familiarise themselves with one new set of rules, rather than different versions. It is expected that the new rules of procedure will be laid before Parliament in due course, and in good time before they come into force this summer.

Copies of the documents being published today have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses.

Apprenticeships in England: Next Steps

Thursday 14th March 2013 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Skills (Matthew Hancock)]

Today the Government have published “The Future of Apprenticeships in England: Next Steps from the Richard Review”, our response to Doug Richard’s independent “Review of Apprenticeships”. It sets out our long-term vision for apprenticeships, together with our proposals for achieving this.

The Richard “Review of Apprenticeships” was published in November 2012, and the report set out a compelling vision for the future of apprenticeships in England. Our response firmly agrees with the review’s assessment of the challenges and opportunities ahead, in particular to place employers at the heart of all aspects of apprenticeships and to ensure rigour, and endorses his vision and the key steps we will need to take to get there.

Apprenticeships are a success; the quantity has risen by a record amount, with half a million starts over the last year. We must ensure consistently good quality, too.

The reforms we are proposing are challenging and far-reaching. We want to work closely with employers, educators and others with an interest in apprenticeships, on how best to turn these principles into practice. That is why today we have launched a consultation to inform our next steps.

A copy of the response has been placed in the Libraries. The consultation will stay open until 22 May. We will carefully consider responses over the summer and will publish our detailed implementation plan in autumn 2013.

Armed Forces Pay Review Body 2013 Report

Thursday 14th March 2013 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Philip Hammond)]

The 2013 report of the Armed Forces Pay Review Body (AFPRB) has now been published. I wish to express my thanks to the chairman and members of the review body for their report.

In line with the Government’s 2011 autumn statement, which announced that public sector pay awards will average 1% for the two years following the public sector pay freeze, the AFPRB has recommended an increase of 1% to base military salaries for 2013-14. In addition, the AFPRB has recommended an increase to X-factor of 0.5% and a 1% increase in specialist pay and compensatory allowances. The AFPRB has also recommended an increase to accommodation charges, but a reduction to food charges, together with a number of targeted measures, including a new commitment bonus for certain categories of personnel joining the Territorial Army.

The AFPRB’s recommendations are to be accepted in full, except for the recommendation to increase X-factor, which would result in costs for which the Department has not currently budgeted. This recommendation is therefore under consideration as part of a wider review of departmental expenditure and I will inform the House of the result in due course. All other recommendations will become effective from 1 April 2013, except where the AFPRB report indicates otherwise.

Copies of the Armed Forces Pay Review Body report are available in the Vote Office.

ECOFIN

Thursday 14th March 2013 Written Statements

[The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr George Osborne)]

A meeting of the Economic and Financial Affairs Council was held in Brussels on 5 March 2013. Ministers discussed the following items:

Revised capital requirements rules (CRD IV)

Ministers discussed a revised legislative package. I made clear that the UK would not support the proposals as they stand. The UK currently has one of the toughest remuneration regimes in the world and the current remuneration proposals in CRD IV would risk the perverse effect of driving up fixed pay, making banks less resilient. The proposals would also make it more difficult to claw back pay where appropriate, thus reducing accountability in the banking sector. The presidency noted that a majority of member states supported the revised package: however further work was required to negotiate outstanding technical issues before Council would formally approve the measures.

Current legislative proposals

The presidency updated Council on the state of play of the following legislative proposals currently under consideration: revised rules for markets in financial instruments, the single supervisory mechanism, the bank recovery and resolution directive, the mortgage credit directive and the market abuse directive and regulation.

VAT fraud: quick reaction mechanism (VAT QRM)

Ministers discussed political guidelines for an anti-fraud package including the QRM. The UK and others stressed the importance of decisions on tax matters being made by the Council and being subject to unanimity. The presidency will continue its work in this area.

Economic governance “two pack”

Council noted the agreement reached with the European Parliament.

European semester: discussion of certain thematic issues—report on quality of public expenditure

Ministers agreed Council conclusions on the report, which addresses fiscal adjustments and finds that fiscal consolidation and promoting growth are not alternatives and can go hand in hand.

Closer economic and monetary union: response to President of the European Council

Ministers held an exchange of views on closer economic and monetary union integration.

Follow-up to G20 meeting of Finance Ministers and governors in Moscow, 15-16 February 2013

The presidency and the Commission updated Ministers on the meeting.

Agriculture and Fisheries Council

Thursday 14th March 2013 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mr Owen Paterson)]

I attended the Agriculture and Fisheries Council on 25 and 26 February in Brussels covering agricultural issues. I was accompanied by the Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, responsible for the natural environment, water and rural affairs, my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), who spoke on fisheries issues. Alun Davies AM, Richard Lochhead MSP and Michelle O’Neil MLA also attended.

This statement updates Parliament on the outcome of discussions of all agenda items at the February Council with the exception of the AOB point on the mislabelling of beef products. I reported on this item in my written parliamentary statement of 27 February, Official Report, column 26WS.

Agriculture—CAP Reform—Basic Payment

Council began with a range of views on its revised text on the CAP basic payment. On the main issue of internal convergence, those member states who have long opposed the move to full convergence of payment levels within a member state or region (i.e. moving from a system based on historical payments to one using area payments), welcomed the revised text and its lower level of ambition. The UK along with some other member states supported strong Commission calls for a more ambitious proposal. I argued that full internal convergence was required, although I did welcome the extra flexibility the text granted to member states about how they reached that point.

Member states agreed with the proposal that they could scale back entitlements for some claimants if there would be a large increase in entitlements across the member state. The proposed redistributive payment also received support, although some queried its complexity. Most new member states continued to push for continuation of the single area payment scheme (SAPS).The presidency acknowledged this as an issue to which the Council would need to return.

CAP Reform—Transparency of CAP Beneficiaries Data

The Council confirmed broad support for the Commission’s proposals on publication of CAP beneficiaries’ data, above a set threshold. The UK and some other member states argued that we should go further by publishing names and receipts of all CAP beneficiaries, without exempting small farmers. Others opposed the Commission’s proposals on the grounds that they were not clearly in line with the recent ECJ ruling, or that publication of names was unnecessary to meet the objectives of public control and transparency. While views on whether a threshold was required and at what level it might be set differed the presidency felt able to conclude that there was sufficient political support for the Commission proposals.

AOB—European Protein Strategy

Austria presented a paper calling for co-ordinated support for EU protein crop producers. They called for a mechanism to support research and information sharing, but also for protein crops to be eligible for cultivation on environmental focus areas as part of CAP reform. This received support from a significant number of member states. The UK called for a WTO-compliant approach, noting that there was already a sophisticated market for protein crops; and that reform was meant to move away from coupled support. There was therefore no need for specific EU support.

Fisheries

Fisheries business at this Council consisted of an update on negotiations on the EU-Morocco fisheries partnership agreement and a substantive negotiation on outstanding elements of CFP reform.

The Commission gave an update on discussions with Morocco over a new protocol to the EU-Morocco fisheries partnership agreement. Some member states were pressing for a swift agreement while others, including the UK, emphasised the importance of a good deal which safeguarded value for money and sufficiently addressed the needs of Western Sahara.

With regard to reform of the CFP, Council revisited the general approach agreed in June 2012 to finalise the outstanding details left undecided. The discussion focused primarily on measures to eliminate discards through landing obligations, or “discard bans” (in articles 15 and 16), although it also touched on integration of the CFP with environmental obligations (article 12).

The Irish presidency tabled a number of proposals, including amendments to the deadlines for the introduction of landing obligations, increased “de minimis” exemptions, new species-based exemptions, and proposals for mandatory swapping of quota between member states.

Firm deadlines for the introduction of landing obligations were agreed, although some deadlines were moved back one year from what had been proposed. Despite pressure from a significant bloc of member states to water down the detailed discards provisions and to expand the flexibilities available, the principles of progressively implemented landing obligations across all quota species remain intact.

The final package maintained de minimis provisions, but blanket species-based exemptions that risked damaging the credibility of the ban were ultimately rejected. Proposals that would have required member states to swap away a certain percentage of their quota were also removed from the package.

The Council position now incorporates these provisions on discards, alongside the other measures agreed in the general approach, for example on fishing at sustainable levels, and processes to deliver more regionalised decision making. The final package will be agreed between Council and the European Parliament, with a process of “trilogue” discussions expected to begin shortly.

G8 UK Presidency: Foreign Ministers' Meeting

Thursday 14th March 2013 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)]

The G8 Foreign Ministers’ meeting will be taking place on 10 and 11 April 2013 in London. I wish to inform the House about the Government’s objectives for this meeting, further to my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister’s written ministerial statement about the UK’s G8 presidency of 9 January 2013, Official Report, column 20WS.

The G8 represents a group of nations with a broad range of global interests and responsibilities. We have a collective responsibility and opportunity to use our influence to address some of the most pressing issues in the world.

We will be inviting G8 nations to provide leadership on the following issues:

First, we will seek a clear statement of intent and concrete commitments to begin to shatter the culture of impunity for those who use rape and sexual violence as a weapon of war, including support for a new international protocol on the investigation and documentation of sexual violence in conflict and practical assistance in countries affected by this problem. Tackling rape and sexual violence in conflict is a major challenge for our generation, and I am grateful for the expressions of support voiced during the debate in this House on this subject on 14 February.

Secondly, we will encourage the G8 to provide high-level political support for Somalia in advance of an international conference on Somalia in London in May, which will be co-chaired with the Somali Government. G8 Ministers will consider how best to support the re-engagement of the international financial institutions with Somalia.

Thirdly, I intend to propose ways we can build greater trust and security in cyberspace as a means of expanding the growth potential of the global digital economy. The G8 can show leadership on international capacity-building efforts, following up the UK initiative announced at the Budapest cyber conference last October.

Fourthly, support for Burma will also be a priority. Following a remarkable period of political reform we believe that the G8 should, in partnership with the Burmese leadership, support a framework for responsible international investment.

Fifthly, we will follow up on the Deauville partnership which represents G8 and partners’ support to countries undergoing transition following the Arab spring. Over the course of 2013 the G8 and its partners will oversee several Deauville partnership initiatives, centred on trade and investment, promoting small and medium-sized enterprises, and supporting women’s economic empowerment.

In addition to these issues, Foreign Ministers will also discuss urgent foreign policy issues. This agenda will be determined closer to the time, but will certainly include the situation in the middle east, including Syria and Iran, security and stability across north and west Africa, DPRK and climate change.

I will keep the House informed of progress.

Informal Health Council

Thursday 14th March 2013 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anna Soubry)]

EU Health Ministers met in Dublin, in Ireland, on 4 and 5 March. I represented the UK. The agenda included discussions on childhood obesity, the impact of the economic crisis on health systems, children with complex developmental needs, patient safety, and on moving towards a smoke-free environment.

The meeting began with a discussion on childhood obesity. There was broad agreement that it was beneficial to continue to develop voluntary collaboration between member states in this field. This discussion was followed by a debate on the impact of the economic situation on health systems, focusing on avoiding or mitigating a negative impact on the provision of health services. There was also a discussion of complex developmental needs in children, with a particular focus on autism.

The second day included discussions on smoke-free environments and patient safety. The discussion on patient safety focused on healthcare associated infections, and the experience of member states in preventing and combating these.

The Council also gave the opportunity to stress the UK position on the economic cost of not addressing the causes of non-communicable diseases and that prevention is vital to the health of UK patients and the UK economy. It is therefore important that the UK works with other member states in tackling issues such as tobacco misuse and obesity and the Council provided a forum to share best practice at the European level.

The meeting concluded with an AOB item on the importation of active pharmaceutical ingredients from third countries, following the coming into force of the falsified medicines directive. A number of member states, including the UK, called on the Commission to redouble their efforts to ensure that there were no shortages of active pharmaceutical ingredients following the implementation of the legislation.

NHS Pay Review Body

Thursday 14th March 2013 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt)]

I am responding on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to the 27th report of the NHS Pay Review Body (NHSPRB). The report has been laid before Parliament today (Cm 8555). Copies of the report are available to hon. Members from the Vote Office and to noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office. I am grateful to the chair and members of the NHSPRB for their report.

We welcome the NHS Pay Review Body’s 27th report, note its observations and accept its recommendations in full.

I am pleased to confirm that:

all NHS staff on agenda for change pay, terms and conditions will receive a 1% rise in their basic pay effective from 1 April 2013: and

those NHS staff on agenda for change pay, terms and conditions who work in London will receive a 1% increase to the minima and maxima of their high cost area supplement.

Review Body on Doctors' and Dentists' Remuneration

Thursday 14th March 2013 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt)]

I am responding on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister to the 41st report of the Review Body on Doctors’ and Dentists’ Remuneration (DDRB). The report has been laid before Parliament today (Cm 8577). Copies of the report are available to hon. Members from the Vote Office and to noble Lords from the Printed Paper Office. I am grateful to the chair and members of the DDRB for their report.

We welcome the 41st report of the Review Body on Doctors’ and Dentists’ Remuneration and note its observations and:

accept its recommendations in respect of salaried doctors and dentists; and

accept the recommendation of a 1% increase in GP pay but abate the recommended allowance for GP practice staff costs from 3.4% to 1% to reflect public sector pay policy, giving an overall increase in general medical services payments of 1.32% rather than the 2.29% recommended by DDRB.

We will take forward DDRB’s suggested actions, which will help us continue to improve our support for the DDRB’s important work.

Terrorism Acts (David Anderson Report)

Thursday 14th March 2013 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)]

I announce today the publication of the Government’s response to the report of Mr David Anderson QC on the operation in 2011 of the Terrorism Act 2000 and part 1 of the Terrorism Act 2006, which will be laid before the House today.

I thank David Anderson QC for his report and have carefully considered his recommendations after consultation with other relevant Departments and agencies.

The Government’s response is available in the Vote Office and online.

Justice and Home Affairs Council

Thursday 14th March 2013 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)]

The Justice and Home Affairs (JHA) Council was held on 7 and 8 March in Brussels. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Justice and I attended on behalf of the United Kingdom. Roseanna Cunningham MSP also attended on behalf of the Scottish Administration. The following items were discussed.

The Council began in mixed committee with Norway, Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland (non-EU Schengen states) where the Council agreed that the second generation Schengen information system (SIS II) would go live on 9 April 2013. The UK supports this date and has planned for integration into SIS II in the fourth quarter of 2014.

Next the presidency introduced a state of play on Bulgaria and Romania’s accession to the Schengen area. Although it was clear that the required unanimity to lift all internal borders did not exist, they considered that a two-step approach (lifting air and sea borders before land borders) could offer a way forward. The presidency concluded that the Council would address the issue again by the end of 2013 on this basis.

The Commission presented the new smart borders package aimed at enhancing EU border security and strengthening the Schengen area through an entry/exit system (EES) while facilitating travel through the proposed registered travellers programme (RTP). The Commission said that there had been extensive consultation and analysis in the preparation of the proposed package, and £949 million has been earmarked in the external borders element of the internal security fund for development costs. Despite some positive welcomes for the package, the high implementation cost dominated the exchange of views with calls for lessons to be learnt from other large scale IT projects. Many member states pressed for the inclusion of law enforcement access and biometrics from the start of the system in order to justify the cost and ensure added value in tackling illegal immigration. The presidency noted the exchange of views and looked forward to discussions at expert level. The UK will not be participating in either component of the smart borders package as they build on the part of the Schengen agreement in which the UK does not participate. However there is value in the successful introduction of an entry/exit system that would enable better measurement and control of illegal migration in the Schengen area.

Under AOB the presidency provided an update on several legislative proposals. They were continuing negotiations with the European Parliament and hoped to find a solution on the visa regulation (539), Eurosur (border surveillance) regulation and the Schengen governance package.

The main Council started with a joint presentation from Guilles de Kerchove (EU counter-terrorism co-ordinator), Pierre Vimont (Secretary-General of the EEEAS), Frontex, Europol and Eurojust on the situation in the Sahel and Maghreb and the associated threat to internal EU security. In recognising the success of the French-led military effort, member states acknowledged that much remained to be done to develop police and criminal justice capabilities in the region. The counter-terrorism co-ordinator, supported by the UK, stressed the importance of work to counter extremist narratives and the need to strengthen aviation security. The UK argued that terrorist groups in the region had benefited from ransom payments and restated the long-held position of the UK Government not to pay ransoms or grant other substantive concessions to hostage-takers. The UK also noted that data-sharing, in particular passenger name records, was vital for detecting individuals travelling to conflict zones. Finally, the UK highlighted the importance of sending a clear signal that terrorist attacks on EU soil would not be tolerated. If there was compelling evidence linking the military wing of Hezbollah to the Bourgas attack, the UK said that the EU had a responsibility to consider that evidence and take action.

Under AOB the presidency updated the Council on the progress of the asylum procedures directive, seasonal workers and intra-corporate transferees proposals. On the multi-annual financial framework, the presidency noted that trilogue negotiations had started in February on the asylum and migration fund and internal security fund. Figures were still being examined, and work was expected to continue on these matters in the coming months.

The Spanish delegation informed Ministers of its intention to establish a platform in Bogota for the exchange of information on transatlantic cocaine trafficking. This would follow the example of similar platforms in Accra and Dakar and bring together operational staff from EU member states in Colombia.

The Commission gave a brief overview of the radicalisation awareness network high-level symposium that took place in January. Both the presidency and the Commission saw a need to revise the current EU radicalisation and recruitment strategy; input to this would be provided through Council conclusions in June and a Commission communication in the autumn.

The Commission updated the Council on the Morocco mobility partnership negotiations following Commissioner Malmström and President Barroso’s visit to Rabat, during which broad agreement on the political declaration of the mobility partnership was reached. It was made clear that visa facilitation and a readmission agreement would be negotiated together. The Commission thanked the countries that had agreed to take part in this partnership, including the UK (which has offered to share best practice on border management with Morocco), and invited Ministers to sign the declaration upon completion of negotiations.

Over lunch the Council received presentations from Frontex and the European Asylum Support Office on the recent trends at the external borders and resulting pressures on member states’ asylum systems, with particular focus on developments in Syria and Mali, and the continuing volatile situation in north Africa. A number of member states stressed the need for an EU-wide response to migratory pressures on the external borders and some member states, including the UK, expressed their concern at the deteriorating situation in Syria. Ministers agreed to continue discussing this issue with the assistance of statistics and data from Frontex and the European Asylum Support Office (EASO).

The justice day began with the presidency presenting its progress report on the data protection regulation. They noted that they had made significant progress, in completing a first read through of the text and proposing changes to the text on the rights of data subjects and the obligations on controllers and processors. The majority of member states welcomed the presidency paper and the risk-based approach. There was broad consensus from member states on the need for legislation that provided flexibility and respected national laws and structures.

The presidency agreed to task the expert working group to consider the risk-based approach and flexibility for the public sector in greater detail.

The Commission presented the draft directive on protection of the euro and other currencies against counterfeiting by criminal law. The Commission stressed the importance of this instrument in protecting the Union’s financial interests and the eurozone generally. Member states were broadly in agreement about the scale and impact of the problem, and supportive of the central objective, although the majority of delegations opposed a key feature of this directive, the introduction of minimum penalties. The UK argued that the proposal was in danger of breaching the principle of subsidiarity, as well as constraining judicial discretion which is a fundamental principle of the criminal law in the UK. The UK was also unconvinced by the need to establish extra-territorial jurisdiction over its own nationals. The presidency summarised that a vast majority opposed minimum penalties, and this would provide the basis for expert discussions on the matter in due course.

Political agreement was reached on the first reading deal on mutual recognition of protection measures in civil matters. The presidency indicated that the EP plenary vote would take place in the next few weeks and it was expected the proposal would return for formal adoption at the June JHA Council. The Commission welcomed this final element of the victims’ package.

The presidency outlined the state of play on other current negotiations. They were optimistic about reaching a conclusion on the access to a lawyer directive in June. It might also be possible to conclude the European investigation order during the Irish presidency. The European Parliament vote on the confiscation directive had been delayed until the end of March; but agreement with the Parliament on the justice funding programme and the rights, equality and citizenship programme was within reach.

The Council concluded with a lunch discussion on the EU justice scoreboard. The presidency said that most had recognised there was a relationship between efficient justice systems and growth and suggested the discussion could move to senior officials for further discussion.

Immigration Rules

Thursday 14th March 2013 Written Statements

[The Minister for Immigration (Mr Mark Harper)]

My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is today laying before the House a statement of changes in immigration rules as set out below.

Minor changes will be made to the general visitor rules to guard against abuse by those whose repeat visits amount to de facto residence.

New provisions are being made in the tier 1 (graduate entrepreneur) route, which we introduced last year. The category is being expanded to include additional places for talented MBA graduates from UK higher education institutions (HEIs) and to accommodate UK Trade and Investment’s elite global graduate entrepreneur scheme, which was announced by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor in his autumn statement and will target the brightest and best entrepreneurs from overseas HEIs.

Changes are being made to the tier 1 (exceptional talent) route, for world leaders in science, engineering, humanities and the arts. These changes split the application process so that applicants will no longer have to pay the full fee up front, or have their passports held by the UK Border Agency while a designated competent body is considering whether to endorse them.

Changes are being made to tier 2, the route for skilled migrant workers with a job offer from a licensed employer. These changes further improve flexibility for intra-company transferees and for employers carrying out the resident labour market test. They also update the shortage occupation list, codes of practice for employers, overall salary thresholds and minimum appropriate salary rates for individual occupations, following reviews by the Migration Advisory Committee. I have also made changes that will remove the need to continually lay further rules changes to renew the tier 2 (general) limit. This means that the limit will continue to be set at 20,700 places per year unless further rule changes are made to amend it. We have previously confirmed that the current limit will remain in place until April 2014.

Changes are being made to tier 4, recently announced by the Home Secretary, that will extend the opportunities for talented graduates to stay and work after their studies. All completing PhD students will be allowed to stay in the UK for one year beyond the end of the course to find skilled work or to set up as an entrepreneur.

The provisions in tier 5 for temporary workers coming to the UK under the relevant commitments in certain international trade agreements to which the UK is a party are being updated.

The changes will delete temporary immigration rules which facilitated the entry and stay of certain Olympic and Paralympic participants and personnel during the 2012 Olympic and Paralympic games. The rules ceased to have effect on 9 November 2012.

Minor changes are being made to the immigration rules on long residence and on work-related settlement, including clarifying the treatment of time spent working; in business or self-employment; or other economic activity in the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man.

Minor changes and clarifications are being made to the immigration rules relating to family and private life, mainly reflecting feedback from legal practitioners and UK Border Agency caseworkers on the operation of the new rules.

The changes also include the removal of the now obsolete provision in the immigration rules for parents and siblings of EEA national children who exercise free movement rights in the UK as self-sufficient persons, following the amendment of the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006 to create provision for such persons which is compliant with European and domestic case law. This provision gave effect to the judgment of the Court of Justice of the European Union in the case of Chen (C200/02).

In the subsequent case of M (Chen parents: source of rights) Ivory Coast [2010], the upper tribunal found that “Chen” carers persons have a right of residence under European law. This determination effectively prevented the UK Border Agency continuing to require Chen carers to apply for leave under the immigration rules, because section 7 of the Immigration Act 1988 says that a person who has “an enforceable Community right” shall not require leave to enter or remain in the UK.

Amendments were made to the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006 (“the regulations”) on 16 July 2012 to recognise a right of residence for persons with a derivative right of residence on the basis of Chen and to create provision for such persons to be issued with documentation confirming this right under the regulations. This provision rendered paragraphs 257C-E of the immigration rules obsolete, as all applications for a document confirming a right of residence on the basis of Chen are now assessed under the regulations.

Changes will be made to safeguard against an offender returning to the UK lawfully but in breach of a conditional caution. It replicates the effect of paragraph 320(7B)(vii) of the general grounds for refusal.

A new protection route is being introduced recognising stateless persons who are unable to leave the UK. According to article 1(1) of the 1954 UN convention an individual is stateless if they are not considered to be a national of any state under the operation of its law.

This new route has been formulated in line with the 1954 convention relating to the status of stateless persons in co-operation with UNHCR and Asylum Aid. It is limited in its scope and requires applicants to demonstrate that they are stateless and cannot leave the UK.

Changes are being made to ensure the requirements necessary for granting discretionary leave to unaccompanied asylum seeking children are within the immigration rules.

Finally, there are also a number of minor technical changes, corrections and updates to lists contained in the immigration rules. Details of these are set out in the explanatory memorandum laid today to accompany the changes.

Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act 2011

Thursday 14th March 2013 Written Statements

[The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mrs Theresa May)]

Section 19(1) of the Terrorism Prevention and Investigation Measures Act 2011 (the Act) requires the Secretary of State to report to Parliament as soon as reasonably practicable after the end of every relevant three-month period on the exercise of her TPIM powers under the Act during that period.

The level of information provided will always be subject to slight variations based on operational advice.

Legal Services on the International Stage

Thursday 14th March 2013 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mrs Helen Grant)]

The Ministry of Justice, in conjunction with UK Trade and Investment, later today launches “Legal Services on the international stage: underpinning growth and stability”, an action plan which outlines the next steps in the promotion of UK legal services abroad.

This follows the publication of the “Plan for Growth: Promoting the UK’s Legal Services Sector”, published in May 2011, which outlined 11 action points to promote the UK’s legal offer. It is now important that we maintain the momentum and explore new ways in which we can promote our legal services internationally.

The new action plan focuses upon three main themes: the inclusion of all UK jurisdictions when promoting our legal offer, the promotion of the UK legal education sector and promoting legal services alongside other sectors. In addition we will be continuing the work begun under the plan for growth, namely lobbying for market liberalisation of those states that have restricted legal markets.

Copies of “Legal Services on the international stage: underpinning growth and stability”, have been placed in the Libraries of both Houses.

Review Body on Prison Service Pay

Thursday 14th March 2013 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Jeremy Wright)]

The 12th report of the Prison Service Pay Review Body (PSPRB) (Cm 8574) has been laid before Parliament today. The report makes recommendations on the pay for governing governors and other operational managers, prison officers and related support grades in England and Wales in 2013-14. Copies are available in the Vote Office and the Printed Paper Office. I am grateful to the chair and members of the PSPRB for their hard work in producing these recommendations.

The PSPRB key recommendations for 2013 are as follows:

endorsement of the introduction of the new bands 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11 pay ranges as the final stage of the wide-scale reforms to pay systems being introduced across NOMS

endorsement of adjustments to the pay ranges for the previously endorsed bands 2 and 3

pay progression increases of one pay point for staff in bands 2 to 5 and of 1.5% for staff in bands 7 to 11

non-consolidated payments of 1% of base pay for staff in bands 7 to 11 who have achieved an “outstanding” performance assessment

non-consolidated awards of £250 for prison officers, senior officers and remit group manager G staff on the maximum of their closed pay scales at 31 March.

The PSPRB makes a number of other recommendations that do not affect pay for remit group staff this year but highlight issues which it wishes parties to address as part of the next pay round.

The recommendations for 2013-14 will be implemented in full. The cost of the award will be met from within the delegated budget allocation for the National Offender Management Service and are in accordance with public sector pay policy.

Note: PSPRB makes no recommendations for band 6 as there are no operational staff in it.

Trusts (Capital and Income) Act 2013

Thursday 14th March 2013 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Mrs Helen Grant)]

The Trusts (Capital and Income) Act 2013 (c.1) received Royal Assent on 31 January. The Act provides that the provisions of sections 1 to 4 (inclusive) of the Act are to be brought into force on such date as the Secretary of State may by order made by statutory instrument appoint. The remaining provisions of the Act are already in force.

I am pleased to announce that a commencement order is to be made bringing sections 1 to 3 (inclusive), which deal with the apportionment and classification of capital and income in trusts, in to force on 1 October 2013.

In relation to the provisions of section 4 of the Act, the commencement order will bring the new section 104B of the Charities Act 2011 in to force on 6 April 2013. This section empowers the Charity Commission to make regulations relating to total return investment by charities.

The remaining provisions of section 4 relate to the new section 104A of the Charities Act 2011. Section 104A specifies when charities may adopt total return investment. I will make a further announcement about the commencement of these provisions in due course following the completion of the proposed consultation by the Charity Commission on the content of the regulations to be made under section 104B. The Charity Commission expects to issue a consultation paper in the relatively near future.

Review Body on Senior Salaries

Thursday 14th March 2013 Written Statements

[The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)]

The 35th report of the Review Body on Senior Salaries (SSRB) is being published today. This makes recommendations about the pay of the senior civil service (SCS), senior military officers, the judiciary and very senior NHS managers. Copies have been laid in the Vote Office, the Printed Paper Office and the Libraries of both Houses. I am grateful to the chairman and members of the review body for their work on this year’s report.

While we are mindful of the need to ensure that we are able to recruit, retain and motivate staff with the right skills and experience, it is important in the current economic climate that senior public servants continue to show leadership in the exercise of pay restraint.

Senior Civil Service

The Government have accepted the recommendation to consider which elements of the Northern Ireland senior civil service (SCS) pay model may be appropriate for the home SCS, but cannot give any commitments about implementation at this time.

The Government have accepted the recommendations on minimum salaries for SCS pay bands 2 and 3 but has not accepted the recommendations for pay bands 1 and 1A.

The Government have not accepted the recommendation to give all staff a 1% increase and to increase the maximum of each pay band by 1%. We have also not accepted the recommendation to retain the existing caps on the size of individual non-consolidated performance awards.

Senior Military Officers

The Government have accepted the recommendation of an increase of 1% to base military salaries for all 2, 3 and 4-star officers.

Judiciary

The Government have accepted the recommendation that the salaries of the judiciary should be increased by 1%.

As a result of the current fiscal challenge and public sector pay policy it is not possible at present to respond to the SSRB’s latest recommendations about the major review. The Government note the proposals but will not be able to respond at this time.

Very Senior NHS Managers

The Government have accepted the recommendation to increase the pay of those NHS very senior managers within the remit of the SSRB by 1%.

The Government have not accepted the recommendation that all very senior managers should be migrated to the terms of the pay framework published in May 2012 as we do not think this is the best use of scarce resources. The new pay framework is clear that it must apply to all new appointments and that where very senior managers are employed in the same organisation on different frameworks, employers should undertake an equal pay review and remedy any inequalities identified. This satisfies all of the requirements of employment law and good practice.

The Government therefore have also rejected the recommendation to suspend performance-related pay in 2013-14 as we believe this plays a useful role in the recruitment, retention and motivation of very senior managers and should continue as a feature of the pay system.

Other Review Body reports for 2013-14

Separate statements from the Secretaries of State for Justice, Health and Defence will also be laid today on the reports of the Prison Service Pay Review Body, the Doctors and Dentists Review Body, the NHS Pay Review Body and the Armed Forces Pay Review Body in respect of pay for the relevant workforces for 2013-14. The Government’s response to those reports is consistent with the need for senior public servants to show leadership in the exercise of pay restraint.

Door to Door Strategy

Thursday 14th March 2013 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Norman Baker)]

I am today publishing a door to door strategy that will help create growth and cut carbon by making it easier and more convenient for people to make their whole journey by sustainable transport—public transport supported by cycling and walking. By improving the whole journey, how each part connects and how to better integrate those parts, more people will be encouraged to use sustainable transport to get from their front door to the door at their destination.

Currently for journeys of less than five miles, 54% of people use the car. For longer journeys this increases to 80%.

The door to door strategy brings together for the first time the key work the Department is undertaking with all the key players in the transport sector. I am very grateful for the support from the rail and bus sectors, and those promoting cycling and walking, for their help in producing this strategy and their endorsement of it. It focuses on the key areas of reliable information, convenient ticketing, better connectivity, and safe, comfortable transport facilities.

The benefits of improving the door-to-door journey will be felt in a number of ways:

by increasing use of sustainable transport we can help protect the environment by reducing carbon emissions and improving air quality;

by improving connectivity and interchange we can help to support economic growth as we better link our businesses and markets and ensure public transport journeys are fast and reliable;

by providing a well-connected and accessible transport system that is safe and secure we can help improve public health, quality of life and wider well-being; and

by integrating the door-to-door journey as a whole we are delivering a good deal for the traveller by helping to make travel more reliable and affordable.

The door to door strategy sets out our vision for using new information technologies, improving ticketing choices, increasing choice and enhancing interchange, all of which will make the door-to-door journey more seamless. We will be working with transport providers, local authorities and representative organisations to challenge them further and help to make our vision a reality.

I will be placing a copy of the door to door strategy in the Library of the House. It will also be published on the Department’s website at:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/door-to-door-strategy.

To support the door to door strategy I have also today published the multi-operator ticketing guidance for local transport authorities. The guidance helps them to identify the type of scheme and approach that might be most suitable in their area, and clarifies the legal issues surrounding introduction of these tickets.

Publication of the guidance is the first of the Competition Commission’s suggested remedies to the local bus market that has been fully addressed by DFT, and reaffirms the Government’s commitment to improving bus services for passengers.

Light Dues

Thursday 14th March 2013 Written Statements

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Stephen Hammond)]

The three general lighthouse authorities for the United Kingdom and Ireland ensure the navigability of the seas around our islands, preserving the lives of mariners and the integrity of our marine environment. We entrust this vital task to these historic organisations, each of which protects ships visiting and trading within our shores.

Our collaboration with the Irish Government in the provision of marine aids to navigation around the whole of Ireland is also symbolic of the friendship that exists between our two nations, and what we can achieve through working together.

Over many years, the general lighthouse authorities have built up great expertise and capabilities in maritime operations. This has enabled each authority to market their skills to earn commercial income and reduce the call on light dues payers, but only where it does not interfere with their core statutory activities.

I remain committed to the efficient and effective provision of marine aids to navigation. I have therefore decided that light dues will be frozen at the current levels for 2013-14. This Government have delivered a 12% reduction in real-term light dues levels since 2010, and confirmation of this further freeze will give certainty over the coming year to those asked to pay for this vital service.

House of Lords

Thursday 14th March 2013 Lords Chamber

Thursday, 14 March 2013.

11:00

Prayers—read by the Lord Bishop of Newcastle.

Taxation: Avoidance

Thursday 14th March 2013 Lords Chamber

Question

11:06

Asked by

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will consider new measures to force British companies to disclose any tax avoidance schemes that could be detrimental to poorer countries, and to support them in taking corrective action.

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, the UK plays a leading role on tax transparency internationally, but it is not possible to extend UK disclosure rules to other countries. Parliament has limited powers to legislate for territories outside the UK. The Government have other policies to assist developing countries more directly by, for example, building their capacity to establish and maintain effective tax systems of their own.

[Lord Collins of Highbury]

I thank the Minister for that response. David Cameron’s pledge to tackle tax avoidance as part of the UK presidency of the G8 needs to move from words to deeds. We cannot use the need for international action as an excuse for going at the pace of the slowest country. The UK should be a global leader, so will the Minister confirm that the Government will use their position at the G8 to make serious proposals that will make a substantial difference to the revenues of the poorest countries in the world?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I think the Government are a global leader in this area. We are taking a lead at the G8, and have taken the lead in the OECD to get the international tax rules changed. However, the other component that we are also taking a lead in is helping poorer countries to develop their own tax collection abilities. For example, work that HMRC has done in Ethiopia resulted in a sevenfold rise in the amount of tax collected in that country in the nine years from 2002.

[Baroness Gardner of Parkes]

Can the Minister tell me why, on the Inland Revenue tax return that one has to complete, one is asked to specify if one belongs to any approved tax-avoidance scheme? Can he tell me how a tax-avoidance scheme gets to be an approved tax-avoidance scheme, and what exactly that means on your Inland Revenue tax return?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, there is something called DOTAS—the disclosure of tax avoidance schemes—which was introduced in, I think, 2004 and requires people who have come up with a tax wheeze to consult HMRC. If HMRC believes that it is a legal scheme, it gives it a number. That is the number you are supposed to put on your tax return if you subscribe to that scheme.

[Lord McConnell of Glenscorrodale]

My Lords, will the Government agree that both transparency and, as the Minister has already said, capacity, are absolutely vital here? Will they ensure that everywhere the UK provides budget support to a developing country, one of the key elements of that budget support is building the capacity for the right laws, the enforcement, and the collection of taxes to be in place inside that country?

[Lord Newby]

Yes. This is an area to which DfID is giving increasing priority. Last year we supported 48 programmes in 20 countries and spent £20 million in this area. Of course, the extent to which we can do it in any country depends on an assessment of that country’s capacity to take advice and act on it.

[Baroness Kramer]

My Lords, I very much support the GAAR, the general anti-abuse rule, which the Government are bringing in to deal with abusive tax avoidance, but would the Minister agree that the version that the Government are looking at is very narrow, with the double reasonableness test? If it proves ineffective, would it not be wise to review that test sooner rather than later?

[Lord Newby]

The road to the GAAR, as it were, was long and difficult. As the noble Baroness will know, it was resolutely opposed by the party opposite when it was in government. We are making a proportionate start, and hope that it will be successful in dealing with the most egregious tax avoidance schemes. The great thing about it is that it is a deterrent. It will definitely be kept under review, but it is a big step forward, and we should not underestimate that.

[Baroness Symons of Vernham Dean]

My Lords, the noble Lord mentioned tax avoidance in the context of the G8, which this country is hosting later this year. Are there any plans to involve HMRC in discussions on the Deauville process with regard to the Arab countries in transition that want or need to look again at their tax systems?

[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I think there is a willingness on the part of HMRC and the Government more generally to work with any country that seeks to do that. As I say, we are already working with 20 countries. In recent months, DfID and HMRC have been looking together at how to put together a business case to allocate more resources to this area. The interesting thing about it is that this is a relatively new area. We have realised that we have expertise that can make a big difference to a whole raft of developing countries, and we are very keen now to capitalise on it.

[Lord Phillips of Sudbury]

Will my noble friend accept that when British companies are involved in tax avoidance schemes abroad, it invariably has a British dimension, and that, sadly, some tax avoidance schemes are plain fraudulent? Is it not therefore essential that HMRC should have much more and better quality staff? Frankly, at the moment, there is a gross inequality of arms.

[Lord Newby]

I absolutely agree, which is why the Government have put nearly £1 billion of funding into this area and why we have reversed the cut of 10,000 compliance staff that was made under the last Government. There are now 2,500 additional people in that area. That is why the people we are recruiting for this are increasingly highly specialised.

[Lord Wills]

My Lords, what consideration are the Government giving to persuading the G8 to require multinational corporations to produce country-by-country reporting of their tax payments so that not only can the tax authorities in developing countries be better informed about what these companies are paying but the people of those countries can be better informed, so that they can hold those companies and their own states better to account?

[Lord Newby]

The Government support country-by-country reporting for the extractive industries, where some of the worst abuses are taking place. We are currently looking at broader proposals for country-by-country reporting. On the point about expanding the principle more widely, we want to make sure that we get the costs and benefits right.

[Baroness Wheatcroft]

My Lords, does the Minister agree with me that the important thing, as we have heard, is to get global companies to pay their fair share of taxes everywhere, including in Britain? One way in which to ensure that we get more from them would be to look again at the transfer pricing regime.

[Lord Newby]

Absolutely. Because the transfer pricing regime is based on international rules, we have put more resources into the OECD process, which is moving forward reasonably quickly. An interim report was produced last month, and there is now a recognition that the rules have to be changed among the major European countries and the major countries in the G20. I sincerely hope that the rules will be changed.

Care Quality Commission

Thursday 14th March 2013 Lords Chamber

Question

11:15

Asked by

[Baroness Wheeler]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what actions they propose to take in the light of the findings of the Care Quality Commission’s home care inspection review Not Just a Number.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Earl Howe)]

My Lords, the Government were encouraged that almost three-quarters of the domiciliary care agencies inspected by the CQC for the review were found to be meeting essential standards.

As the regulator of health and adult social care, the CQC has a range of powers to ensure that services are safe and of good quality. The CQC has the Government’s full support to take firm action where it finds services are unacceptable or failing.

[Baroness Wheeler]

I thank the noble Earl for his response and welcome the CQC’s positive findings on the 75% of home care services it inspected. However, the 25% of failing providers are a cause for deep concern, particularly as regards the number of late or missed calls and their complete failure to have systems to document, assess or monitor the quality of care they are supposed to deliver. Where there is a live-in carer, late or missed calls can at least be managed in some way, even if the cared-for person cannot be got out of bed. However, if people are on their own, the consequences are deeply distressing and can be very serious. What information does the department have nationally across the sector about this very worrying issue? What action is being taken to address the problem? Should we not ensure that all providers are required to keep records of the numbers, reasons for and remedial actions taken for missed and late calls, including refunding charges to self-funders or to the local authority?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the noble Baroness is quite right: there is no room for complacency in this area. Care has to be right every time, not just three-quarters of the time. I noted from the CQC’s report that, although it recorded a number of common issues undermining the majority of good home care from a significant minority of providers, many of these were fairly minor. However, the noble Baroness has alighted on a very important failing among several of the agencies inspected. I do not have national information on late and missed calls but in the work that we are doing with local authorities, providers and, indeed, the CQC, all of whom share responsibility for driving improvement in services, this will inevitably be an area of focus for it.

[Baroness Howarth of Breckland]

My Lords, does the Minister agree with me that while the examples of good practice are very welcome, what was most surprising was the comment on safeguarding, which noted that many services are not meeting the requirements of good practice in relation to reporting to local authorities and have out-of-date procedures? Bearing in mind the plethora of advice from the Department of Health, what do the Government intend to do to bring these services into line as these are the most serious cases, where people are in real danger?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, strengthening adult safeguarding arrangements is a key priority for the Government. We are committed to preventing and reducing the risk of abuse and neglect to adults who are in vulnerable situations and generally to supporting people to maintain control over their lives. As the noble Baroness may know, we are legislating to put safeguarding adults boards on a stronger statutory footing. That will better equip them both to prevent abuse and to respond to it when it occurs.

[Baroness Knight of Collingtree]

My Lords, does my noble friend recall occasions within recent years when the Care Quality Commission discovered blatant breaking of the law and was unable to take any steps? What happens when that occurs and no repercussions follow?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, the Care Quality Commission has a full range of powers open to it which enables it to take action where it discovers a major failing in the quality of care. We are not aware that that menu of options needs to be expanded. I will write to my noble friend as regards specific instances, having consulted the CQC, but I do not think that there is a general call to expand the CQC’s powers in this area.

[Baroness Wall of New Barnet]

My Lords, I am sure that the noble Earl will welcome this report, as my noble friend has, because there are many good news stories in it. I am sorry that I have had time to read the report only quickly. In the inspection, the Care Quality Commission looked for opportunities to maintain older people in their homes, rather than have them come into hospital; that is hugely important. The evidence is that if an elderly person turns up at A&E at 8 pm, they will be in hospital for many days, and that is not always necessary. Can we look more closely at how, in the care that is given, we can prevent people coming into hospital?

[Earl Howe]

The noble Baroness is right to focus on that issue. There are a number of things that we can do. We will shortly introduce new minimum standards to improve training for care staff, which will help in that regard. We aim to double the number of apprentices in care services by 2017 because there is clearly a workforce imperative here. We are proposing to expand the current care ambassador scheme, which promotes a positive image of the sector. That again will assist in recruitment. We are also launching an online tool to support recruitment and provide information about working in care and support, all of which is designed to address workforce concerns and concerns around skills.

[Lord Laming]

My Lords, will the noble Earl assure the House that the Government, when considering the report referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, will look at it in the context of another report published today by a House of Lords committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Filkin? Together, these reports pose one of the greatest challenges to our society, and it is very important that the Government take these matters as seriously as possible, for the benefit of us all.

[Earl Howe]

I quite agree with the noble Lord. He will know that we have an Oral Question next week on the report published today by the noble Lord, Lord Filkin.

[Baroness Barker]

My Lords, last year the Government announced their intention to end the practice of domiciliary care visits being planned on the basis of a few minutes. In the current economic circumstances, can the Minister say how the Government plan to make that intention a reality?

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, my noble friend will know that in the care and support White Paper we set out our intentions to improve quality standards in social care, increase the capacity and enhance the capability of the social care workforce, ensure that people have better information about care providers, and improve the performance of the regulator. Within that spectrum of actions, we will be looking carefully at how precisely to deliver that ambition to which my noble friend rightly refers.

Crime: Detection Rates

Thursday 14th March 2013 Lords Chamber

Question

11:23

Asked by

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of crime detection rates.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, this Government do not assess the performance of police forces through centrally mandated targets. However, we are ensuring that the public and PCCs have access to consistent and comprehensive information on all crime outcomes. This supports police accountability, as the public can now hold the police to account for how they respond to crime in their area.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I am not sure that that really answers my Question. Perhaps I can be clearer. Government cuts mean that 15,000 fewer police officers will be in place by the time of the next election. It is not therefore rocket science to understand that last year 30,000 fewer crimes were solved. The Minister will be aware that forensic evidence is a key part of bringing criminals to justice. Can I direct him to yesterday’s evidence from Michael Turner QC, chairman of the Criminal Bar Association, to the Science and Technology Committee of the other place? He said that following the Government’s abolition of the highly regarded Forensic Science Service, the quality of expert witnesses being used by the crown was now, in his words, “variable”. Is the Minister aware of the frustration of so many investigating police officers who are experiencing serious delays in getting the forensic evidence reports they have taken at the scene of crime? They are not getting them in time. Given the questions on the quality and delays in the system in getting a forensic evidence service, does the Minister think that scrapping the Forensic Science Service was a good idea?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I have been to a number of forensic science laboratories in the course of my work, and I have seen that the quality of work being done there is second to none. Indeed, on DNA activity in particular, we are ahead of the game. It is important to emphasise that the background painted by the noble Baroness is inaccurate to the extent that she failed to recognise that recorded crime was down by 10% in the first two years of this Government.

[Lord Skelmersdale]

My Lords, perhaps I may get slightly more specific. I have anecdotal evidence of a rise in Muslim hate crime in this country, which apparently is recorded only by the Metropolitan Police. Will my noble friend use his best efforts to encourage other PCCs to make such recordings, because otherwise we will not know exactly what is going on?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My Lords, in fact the disaggregation of crime analysis is going to make it much easier to discover these figures. My noble friend makes a very good point. I know that colleagues in government are working with the Home Office to make sure that hate crimes, wherever they occur, are properly dealt with.

[Baroness Uddin]

My Lords, given what the Minister said about a reduction in crime, is he suggesting that there has also been a serious drop in the number of crimes reported for forced marriage, honour-related violence, FGM and rape?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

As the noble Baroness will know, some concerns have been raised by the Director of Public Prosecutions about false allegations of rape. His report clearly shows that these cases are very few and far between and that police forces should be encouraged to take rape allegations more seriously, as indeed they should any allegations of forced marriage.

[Baroness Doocey]

My Lords, does the Minister share my concern that the Metropolitan Police are spending £4 million a year on international travel and more than £1.5 million a year on providing chauffeur-driven cars for ACPO officers—money that could be better spent on employing 80 police officers to deal with crime detection?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That may well be so, and my noble friend makes a very good point. The governance of the Metropolitan Police lies, of course, in the hands of the Mayor of London, and I know of no more vigorous pursuer of value for money than the Mayor of London.

[Lord Selkirk of Douglas]

Can the Minister confirm that CCTV has been extremely effective in reducing the opportunities for crime?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Indeed, it has. At the moment, we are evaluating a consultation that we have had on a new code of practice for CCTV and its use. It is an extremely useful tool when properly used, and it is very important that we recognise that it needs to be properly used in our communities.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

With respect to a previous answer on the costs of international travel, will the Minister please recognise that crime is no longer local? It is international and, indeed, transnational, and that trend is being accelerated by cybercrime. When he looks with a sceptical eye at these costs, will he make sure that he does not debilitate the police in carrying out their job of tackling international crime?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. Indeed, we have police officers embedded in and working in overseas countries because of the international nature of many crime networks. It is greatly to the advantage of this country’s fight against crime in this country that we have intelligence about these things. On the other hand, I think my noble friend was right to challenge expenditure. It is right that all public bodies are challenged on costs, because it is up to them to evidence why it is important that this money is spent.

Bangladesh: Riots

Thursday 14th March 2013 Lords Chamber

Question

11:29

Asked by

[Lord Avebury]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what information they have received regarding the number of people killed in recent riots in Bangladesh, and the theft or arson of property belonging to minority communities.

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, the Government are deeply concerned by reports of the recent violence in Bangladesh. Sadly, there have been more than 70 deaths and many injured as a result of the recent protests. There are reports of 24 Hindu temples, 122 houses and dozens of shops being destroyed across Bangladesh. We deplore attacks on places of worship and private property and have urged the Government to ensure that investigations are conducted and that those responsible are held to account. As I said during my recent visit to Bangladesh, violence and vandalism have no place in legitimate protest.

[Lord Avebury]

My Lords, I very much welcome the statement issued by my noble friend yesterday condemning the violence which, as she said, has led to the deaths of more than 70 people, most of whom died at the hands of the security forces. Have the Government of Bangladesh ordered the security forces not to use live ammunition against demonstrators unless it is absolutely unavoidable, in accordance with the UN basic principles on the use of force by law enforcement officials? With regard to the widespread attacks on temples, houses and other property of religious minorities—a repeat of what happened after the 2001 elections—will the Government of Bangladesh pay full compensation to the communities for the losses that they have suffered, as Sheikh Hasina promised to the citizens of Ramu, who suffered a similarly gratuitous attack by extremists last September?

[Baroness Warsi]

Officials are currently confirming whether the Bangladeshi security forces are operating in accordance with the UN basic principles on disturbances. A briefing for heads of mission was held by the Foreign Minister, Dipu Moni, on 7 March in which she said that law enforcement agencies would deploy force in situations of self-defence and to maintain public order, but that they would first use other means of crowd control. She also informed in a briefing that the district administrations are distributing relief and reconstruction material to the families that have been affected by the violence. We continue to urge the Government of Bangladesh and others in Bangladesh to urge restraint in this violence.

[Baroness Uddin]

I express my deep condolences via the House, if I may, for those who have lost their lives in this conflict. As a child growing up and witnessing the liberation war, I understand deeply the wishes of Bangladeshi people to call for justice for those who have committed atrocities. Will the Minister recognise the current serious difficulties faced by the Bangladeshi Government and people, and urge the Government to redouble their efforts to ensure that all judicial and electoral processes are not only transparent and accountable but are seen to be so?

[Baroness Warsi]

The Government have been fully supportive of the International Crimes Tribunal, which tries people who are alleged to have committed crimes during the 1971 war. The Government feel that it is important for those trials to take place to dispel the ongoing culture of impunity when these issues arise in times of conflict. We have urged for that process to be transparent and for it to be done in accordance with the rule of law. However, we condemn the violence that has escalated as a result of those sentences, most recently after the verdict on 28 February of the vice-president of Jamaat-e-Islami.

[Lord Dholakia]

My Lords, I welcome the statement of the noble Baroness. I draw to her attention that yesterday I met a deputation of some of the minority organisations based in this country, who clearly identified the role of fundamentalist organisations such as Jamaat-e-Islami and the fanatical student wing Islami Chhatra Shibir. They are the people who are perpetrating a substantial amount of crime against temples and the religious minorities. Will the Minister, first, bring that to the attention of the Bangladeshi Government? Secondly, will she meet those organisations because they have more information than that supplied by the Minister?

[Baroness Warsi]

My noble friend raises an important point. I am aware that there was a protest on 13 March, at which a number of minority communities originating from Bangladesh expressed their concern. We are currently investigating who is behind much of this violence and we have said clearly that we expect all parties to exercise restraint.

[Lord Trimble]

My Lords, what do we do and what can we do to promote human and civil rights in Bangladesh generally? Looking forward to the elections, will there be fair opportunities for minority groups to participate?

[Baroness Warsi]

There should be such opportunities, and that was certainly the basis of many discussions I held with Sheikh Hasina, the Foreign Minister and, indeed, the leader of the Opposition, Khaleda Zia. It is important that these elections are inclusive and free from violence. There is an ongoing debate in Bangladesh about the interplay between political parties and whether they should be secular or there should be a religious base to them. When I was in Bangladesh, I urged all parties that it is important to ensure that political parties are defeated through the ballot box rather than through violence.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, last week we had an excellent debate on the Commonwealth and the new Commonwealth charter, and I wonder whether some of these issues could be pursued with our Commonwealth partners? Could pressure be put on the authorities in Bangladesh to make sure not only that there are free elections, but that the violent atrocities cease?

[Baroness Warsi]

The noble Baroness will be aware of the long history of political dispute within Bangladesh, and that it can spill over into our own communities of Bangladeshi origin on our streets. It is of concern to us, as part of the Commonwealth family, that these elections should take place in a fair and inclusive environment—there has been some talk of certain parties boycotting them—and one in which there is no violence. It is also of concern to me in terms of my domestic portfolio that this does not spill over into tension. We have seen increasing levels of tension in, for example, Whitechapel, as the result of demonstrations and counterdemonstrations.

Alcohol: Minimum Pricing

Thursday 14th March 2013 Lords Chamber

Statement

11:36

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office (Lord Taylor of Holbeach)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I will repeat an Answer given by my honourable friend Mr Jeremy Browne to an Urgent Question in the House of Commons earlier today. The Answer is as follows:

“I am aware that there have been a significant number of media reports and stories about the Government’s proposal to introduce a minimum unit price. I am grateful for the opportunity to clarify the Government’s position. The Government are determined to find the best way to diminish the misuse of alcohol. Over 44% of violent crime is alcohol-related. Fighting, anti-social behaviour and public drunkenness are familiar sights in many city centres. There were 1.2 million alcohol-related hospital admissions in 2010-11. So in March last year, the Government published their alcohol strategy, which set out a range of measures to tackle the harms caused by excessive alcohol consumption.

The Government have already introduced a wide set of reforms to tackle binge drinking and the corrosive effect it has on individuals and our communities. We have rebalanced the Licensing Act in favour of local communities by, for instance, removing the “vicinity test” to ensure that anyone, no matter where they live, can have input into a decision to grant or revoke a licence. We have introduced a late night levy, making those businesses that sell alcohol late at night contribute towards the cost of policing and wider local authority action. We have also introduced early morning alcohol restriction orders, enabling local areas to restrict the sale of alcohol late at night in all or part of their area if there are problems.

The Home Office has also recently consulted on a range of new proposals set out in its Alcohol Strategy, including a ban on multi-buy promotions in shops and off-licences to reduce excessive alcohol consumption; a review of the mandatory licensing conditions to ensure that they are sufficiently targeting problems such as irresponsible promotions in pubs and clubs; health as a new alcohol licensing objective for cumulative impacts so that licensing authorities can consider alcohol-related health harms when managing the problems relating to the number of premises in their area; cutting red tape for responsible businesses to reduce the burden of regulation while maintaining the integrity of the licensing system; and the introduction of minimum unit pricing.

This public consultation opened on 28 November and closed on 6 February. We have received a large number of responses covering a very wide range of views which included those of members of the public, the police and licensing authorities, health organisations, alcohol producers and retailers, trade bodies and charities.

On minimum unit pricing, there are powerful arguments on both sides. We have to ensure that we base our decision on a careful consideration of all the representations. We are evaluating the data in a precise way and will announce our decision when this careful evaluation is completed”.

11:40

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I thank the noble Lord for repeating the Statement. I know he sought to clarify the position but I am not sure he really has. In the final paragraph of the Statement, he said:

“On minimum unit pricing … We have to ensure that we base our decision on a careful consideration of all the representations”,

in relation to the consultation. That consultation document states:

“In the Strategy, the Government committed to introducing a minimum unit price. However, in other areas, this consultation seeks views on the introduction of policies”.

It refers to “other areas”. The consultation was not about minimum unit pricing. Less than a year ago, the Home Secretary said that,

“the problem is now so acute that we need to go further. We will therefore introduce a minimum unit price for alcohol”.—[Official Report, Commons, 23/3/12; col. 1071.]

There were no ifs, no buts, no qualification and no equivocation. So determined were the Government, they even refused to consult on the principle. What changed?

11:41

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I think I can reassure the noble Baroness that a thorough consultation has taken place. We needed to consult on a clear proposition, which the Government presented in their consultation. We needed, in other words, to understand people’s views on a proposal, which was the whole purpose of the consultation. We have had a large number of responses, which I think I have indicated were finely balanced, from a range of correspondents and they need careful consideration. No decision has been made.

11:41

[Lord Walton of Detchant]

My Lords, can the Minister say whether the Government give higher priority to the health of the nation, particularly to those young people who are so much addicted to binge drinking, or to the profitability of the UK drinks industry?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I think the noble Lord would admit that that is a rather loaded question. However, I am prepared to answer it because of course health considerations are extremely important. There are huge economic costs, as well as the social costs, in the excessive consumption of alcohol. That is clear. What might well divide the House in debate would not be that issue but the question of what is the most effective way of dealing with it.

[Baroness Jolly]

My Lords, excess drinking is a public heath disaster, costs the nation a fortune and wrecks families. Implementing minimum alcohol pricing is evidence-based, easy to implement and easy to understand. Will the Minister tell the House what arguments could be used not to do it?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

As my noble friend will know, the Scottish Government have legislated to provide for minimum unit pricing in Scotland. Unfortunately, that has been challenged in the courts. This is not an easy measure to bring forward and that is why, in their consultation, the Government wanted to make sure that they took the views of all sections so that they were able to formulate an answer to this issue that was satisfactory from the health point of view and would lead to an enforceable and workable system.

[Baroness Wall of New Barnet]

My Lords, I share with the Minister the grave disappointment in my own NHS trust on hearing the decision not to pursue this. The noble Lord and others have already described this but in our A&E department—not just on a Saturday night but on many other nights—lots of young people are there in a very bad state of health, which obviously impinges on the other people who are trying to be seen. The Prime Minister said that he will do something about it. Can he please let us know what that is and how quickly that might be done?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I reassure the noble Baroness that no decision has been made. Nothing I have said today should imply that a decision has been made. We are in the process of evaluating the consultation procedure. As I say, we have had a great number of responses. On an issue of this importance, it is only just that we seek to get it right, and that is the position of the Government.

[Baroness Browning]

My Lords, having brought the licensing laws through this House in 2011, which at the time had support across the House because there was recognition that the abuse of alcohol that is outlined today is really a very serious problem, I ask my noble friend not to be deflected in any way from putting together a package of changes—it needs to be a package—that will address this problem. Having observed how this Question was introduced in another place earlier this morning, I very much regret the party-political slanging match that it turned into.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

My noble friend is perfectly correct that this demands a serious discussion and debate. The Government’s proposals for the consultation are in the form of a package of different measures, all of which are designed to reduce the health impact of excessive alcohol consumption. My noble friend makes a very good point.

[Lord Winston]

My Lords—

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords—

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, in the general turn of groups, it is the turn of the Labour Benches. I suggest that since the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, has been patient, it might be his turn next.

[Lord Winston]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness. Does the Minister agree that behaviour change is extremely difficult to influence, as has been shown by our Select Committee? Does he also agree that the one thing that has been clearly shown by research to really work is changing the pricing of a commodity?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That is why this proposal was originally put forward. That is the premise under which we operate, but it is not the total answer. I think the noble Lord would admit that there are other elements besides price, such as availability. As the noble Lord will know, we face a much more liberal licensing regime as a result of the previous Government’s determination to extend licensing hours, so availability is another factor. But he is right to point to behaviour, because there are huge differences between those of us who live in Nordic countries, where alcohol consumption per capita is very high, and those who live in Mediterranean countries and the like, where there seems to be better self-ordered restraint on the consumption of alcohol.

[Lord Elystan-Morgan]

My Lords, while accepting that it is utterly laudable that any Government should pay very great attention to the possibility of curbing alcohol abuse by pricing, I urge upon the Minister an alternative consideration as well. As the Minister will remember, the current Licensing Act has a provision—I think in Section 157, but I could be wrong—to punish publicans for serving alcohol to persons who have already had too much to drink. Will the Government concentrate very much on this aspect as well? If proper sanctions are fully and practically applied, this could be a very powerful weapon against alcoholism.

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

Indeed, the discipline that needs to be shown by those who retail alcohol, whether in shops, supermarkets or bars, is a very important part of the solution to this problem. We know that local authorities are taking the issue of underage drinking much more seriously than has been the case. The responsibility must lie with the person selling the alcohol to make sure that it is not made available to people who clearly have had enough.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, many of us have some anxiety about what appears to be the disproportionate influence of lobbyists in Whitehall. Some time ago the Prime Minister expressed his anxiety about the growth of the lobbying industry and the possible susceptibility of politicians to lobbying. Will the Minister say what the Government are doing to ensure that as civil servants develop policies for the consideration of Ministers, they are appropriately and robustly independent of disproportionate influence from outside on behalf of sectional interests?

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

This is another issue, but a very important one. I can truly say that when it was presented to me some time ago—I believe I had a Question on it in this House—there was no suggestion whatever that the officials presenting the alcohol strategy to me were in any way influenced by pressures from any particular quarter. It has certainly not been my experience. The issue raised by the noble Lord is very serious, but I do not think that it is a factor in this case. Indeed, I would not countenance it myself.

Business of the House

Thursday 14th March 2013 Lords Chamber

Motion on Standing Order

11:51

Tabled by

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

That Standing Order 46 (No two stages of a Bill to be taken on one day) be dispensed with on Thursday 21 March to allow the Supply and Appropriation (Anticipation and Adjustments) Bill to be taken through all its remaining stages that day.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, on behalf of my noble friend, I beg to move the Motion standing in his name on the Order Paper.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

My Lords, I hope that the House will not approve this Motion. Standing Orders are there for a purpose. At the very least, the Leader of the House, or in this case the Chief Whip, should give us reasons for dispensing with this Standing Order. In my view there is plenty of time for this Motion to be discussed and for the proper procedures to be followed, or there would have been had the Government not extended the Easter Recess at short notice and without any prior consultation. This is causing great problems for Members, for the House and for Committees of this House.

Moreover, there is a constitutional problem, because the Commons will be sitting when we are having the third week of our Easter Recess. This is creating problems with Joint Committees that have already evidenced themselves and with the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, whose executive were due to meet all-party groups that week. Statements will be made in the other place and will not be able to be repeated here, and we will not be able to take part in debating them.

This will create administrative problems. Already a number of banqueting events have had to be cancelled as a result of this decision. There are legislative problems. A whole raft of Private Members’ Bills is waiting to be discussed, yet we are being sent away for an extra week during the Easter Recess. There are five reports from Select Committees on the Order Paper. There is a long list of Members seeking debates on a wide range of subjects, and Select Committees have deadlines for submitting reports. These are just a few of the problems caused by the unilateral and precipitate decision to extend the Easter Recess.

I mean no disrespect to the noble Baroness, for whom I have great respect, but I am slightly disappointed and surprised that the Leader of the House is not here to explain why we have to take the stages of the Bill together on one day. We could have done it, we could be here and we could be sitting, but we have now been told that we are to have an extra week’s holiday.

I hope the noble Baroness will consider withdrawing this Motion and reconsider the announcement that was made last week.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, the noble Lord is being a little innovative in stretching his comments well beyond the matter on the Order Paper. However, because I am courteous, I will seek to address those in a moment.

First, I assure the House that the noble Lord is completely wrong in his allegation that even if the noble Lord, Lord Hill, were standing here instead of me, this Motion is in any way out of the ordinary. It is absolutely the normal procedure for these matters. The Motion itself simply states that Standing Order 46 should,

“allow the Supply and Appropriation (Anticipation and Adjustments) Bill to be taken through all its remaining stages that day”.

This always happens, regardless of who are in Government. The Supply and Appropriation (Anticipation and Adjustments) Bill is a supply Bill, and it has been certified as a money Bill. The noble Lord, of course, was in another place, and he knows as well as anyone what the rules are with regard to that. He has been in this House a little time, so he will know that this happens every time a money Bill comes forward.

In all processes, all stages are taken formally and there is no substantive Second Reading. Even if we sat from now until kingdom come, the stages would not be taken separately. If noble Lords would like to look at the Companion at some stage—I am not suggesting a mass rush for the Printed Paper Office—they will see that the appropriate entry is at paragraph 8.198.

As I have said, the noble Lord has been a little cheeky, but it is his nature. He has kind of extended this to, “Ey up, why have you decided that we shall have an extra week off?”. Well, it is not quite like that. The job of the Government is to ensure that the time of this House is used to best effect, and it will be so. This House is different from another place. Indeed, it decided that it did not wish to be elected or to ape another place; it wishes to retain its strong independent character. We are going to use time to best advantage, and that can be achieved even by having one extra week after Easter. However, over a calendar year, as noble Lords will know, matters even out.

Motion agreed.

Business of the House

Thursday 14th March 2013 Lords Chamber

Motion on Standing Order

11:56

Tabled by

[Lord Hill of Oareford]

That Standing Order 40 (Arrangement of the Order Paper) be dispensed with on Monday 18 March to allow the Motion in the name of Baroness Tonge to be taken before the Motion in the name of Lord Inglewood.

[Baroness Anelay of St Johns]

My Lords, I beg to move the Motion standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Hill of Oareford on the Order Paper.

Motion agreed.

Afghanistan

Thursday 14th March 2013 Lords Chamber

Motion to Take Note

11:57

Moved by

[Baroness Warsi]

To move that this House takes note of Afghanistan’s regional relationships and their impact on the long-term future of that country.

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, this topic is discussed less these days in this Chamber, yet it is of paramount importance to the country’s future stability and prosperity. Today, I shall set out for the House the major effort that is under way, both in the region and from the international community, to work towards building a peaceful and prosperous Afghanistan now and after 2014. In doing so, I shall reflect on how Afghanistan and its neighbours will begin to take greater ownership of their own peace, security and prosperity, supported by international partners.

Until now, debate on Afghanistan has tended to focus on the military efforts of ISAF, yet as we move towards drawdown and look beyond 2014, we must look back at history and learn from what has gone before. These lessons have and will continue to inform our decision to maintain our commitment to Afghanistan beyond 2014. Once our role in Afghanistan moves from combat to support and training, in which we are already very involved, regional relationships will be even more crucial to building a strong and independent future for Afghanistan in the heart of Asia.

At the Istanbul conference in November 2011, the Heart of Asia countries, including the central Asian states, Pakistan, Iran and Turkey, affirmed their support for a stable Afghanistan. Following that conference, they stated:

“We remain convinced that a peaceful Afghanistan, with functioning institutions and strengthened security forces, is key to successful regional cooperation. We remember that the international community and the region are not separated and emphasize that we all have a stake in the security and stability of the region”.

Supporting countries, including the United Kingdom, welcomed this statement. That conference launched the Istanbul Process.

I shall consider today the role of regional players in an Afghan-led peace and reconciliation process before outlining how I see the role of the region in longer-term stability and security. Finally, I shall set out for the House the role of regional and global partners in Afghanistan’s economic development, helping it to become an independent, prosperous and self-sufficient state.

Before looking more closely at Afghanistan’s regional relationships and the important roles that they play, I should like to put this discussion into context by setting out how the UK sees its current role in Afghanistan and how both our role and our priorities will change between now and 2015. British troops are in Afghanistan to protect our national security. We are trying to support the building not of a perfect Afghanistan, but of an Afghanistan that does not again provide a safe haven for international terrorists. That is a difficult task, and we recognise the extraordinary courage of our service men and women.

In December, the Prime Minister announced that the UK would reduce force levels in Afghanistan to about 5,200 by the end of 2013. The Prime Minister has also said that the UK will not have any troops in a combat role in Afghanistan after 2014, but that we will maintain a long-term partnership with Afghanistan post-2014 through trade, diplomacy and development, as well as training, mentoring and funding the Afghan security forces.

On 28 January last year, the Prime Minister and President Karzai signed the Enduring Strategic Partnership document, which affirms our two nations’ shared interest in improving governance, the rule of law, economic and social development, security and cultural co-operation. During my visit to Afghanistan in October, I co-chaired with Afghan Deputy Foreign Minister Ludin the inaugural meeting of the joint commission overseeing the implementation of the enduring partnership agreement.

Development support will also remain crucial in the years to come. At the Tokyo conference in July last year, the UK committed to maintain its current level of development funding of £178 million per year up to 2017. In turn, the Afghan Government have committed to improvements in the rule of law, governance and human rights, including women’s rights, as part of the Tokyo Mutual Accountability Framework.

Women’s rights were a key theme of my recent visit to Afghanistan. I found women’s leaders upbeat about prospects for their country. They felt that the gains made on women’s rights would not be lost, but I agree that more must be done to improve the daily lives of the Afghan people, particularly women and girls. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for International Development has made clear that tackling violence against women and girls will become a strategic priority for her department’s work in Afghanistan.

All of this demonstrates that our efforts in Afghanistan do not begin and end with military support. The international community has committed to continue its investment through to 2014 and beyond. The end of the ISAF mission next year does not mean an end to the support provided by the international community. Planning continues for the NATO-led follow-on mission that will continue to help, train and advise the Afghan security forces. The UK Government will continue to support governance and development in Afghanistan through the next decade, helping to ensure that the progress made to date is not lost.

Afghanistan and its region have a long recorded history. From the first century BC to the fall of the Ottoman Empire, the countries around Afghanistan were part of the lucrative Silk Road trade route from China to Europe. Afghanistan formed a crossroads for trade routes across the region and a hub for commerce. As well as the trade connections, the region shares a long Islamic heritage, something that I have seen as I have been lucky enough to travel in the region over the past few years. When I visited Uzbekistan in April last year, I saw the Uzbeks’ Islamic heritage, visiting the great Silk Road cities of Samarkand and Bukhara. I had the opportunity to discuss with my hosts their perceptions of Islamic identity and how this impacts on their sense of community, both nationally and regionally.

I have been closely involved in Pakistan since the Government were formed, both as Minister without Portfolio and now at the FCO. My dealings with Pakistanis and the Pakistani Government have been open, frank and in the spirit of friendship, and I sense a desire across political parties and others to build deeper relations with Afghanistan and an acknowledgement that stability and security in Afghanistan ultimately mean stability and security in Pakistan.

If noble Lords will permit, I will take this opportunity to mention the upcoming elections in Pakistan. They are a crucial milestone in Pakistan’s democratic history. It will be the first time in decades that there will have been a democratic transfer of power between one civilian Government and another after serving a full term. The elections are a vital step on the path to a strong, stable and democratic Pakistan. The new Government, whatever their make-up, will face some real challenges in their first 100 days, including a difficult economic situation and a critical energy shortfall. The UK is committed to working closely with Pakistan on these challenges. We can share our experiences of the need for tough decisions to deliver future growth and prosperity.

It is in the interests of all political parties that the elections are credible and acceptable to the Pakistani people, so that they have a mandate to meet those serious challenges. The elections will be managed by perhaps the most independent election commission that Pakistan has ever seen. The UK is supporting the election commission of Pakistan in its preparations through a three-year programme focused on sustainable capacity building and based on international best practice. For example, we are funding the training of election staff, helping to refine the electoral dispute resolution mechanism, enabling them to update their electoral operations system and supporting their voter education strategy.

The UK, along with the international community, is lobbying for greater registration of women in the elections. In 2008 there were, sadly, some areas where no women voted. The UK is supporting a civil society network to help disadvantaged groups to register on the electoral roll. For us, it is not about who is in power; it is about a democratic process, a system functioning within its constitutional framework and building greater accountability to its people.

A stable, peaceful Afghanistan remains critical to Pakistan, a point repeated by President Zardari at the Chequers summit in February this year. On my last visit to Afghanistan earlier this month, in meetings with Foreign Minister Rassoul and head of the Joint Secretariat of the High Peace Council, Massoum Stanekzai, I discussed the progress that had been made thus far in the Afghan-led peace process. Both Rassoul and Stanekzai welcomed the UK’s role in helping the Afghans and Pakistanis to work through some of the more difficult issues.

The relationship between Afghanistan and Pakistan has moved in a more positive direction in the past six months than it had for quite some time before. The difficulties encountered over the past 30 years have sometimes blinded both sides to the extent of their mutual interest. Their co-operation is essential to securing long-term security in the region, and indeed for our own national security.

Given our good relationships with both countries, the United Kingdom is happy to play a part in facilitating discussions between Afghanistan and Pakistan. We recognise the importance of economic growth and the historic trade links through south Asia. It is for this reason that we believe strong trade agreements, such as the Afghanistan-Pakistan transit trade agreement, are important. Yet economic growth will be difficult in a challenging security environment.

The UK has been active in supporting greater co-operation on peace and security through the UK-Afghanistan-Pakistan trilateral process. This process began at the request of President Karzai and Prime Minister Ashraf last year. As a facilitating partner, we have encouraged ideas, identified areas of agreement and provided a forum for open dialogue.

We have now had three successful Prime Minister-level trilateral meetings, as well as a meeting at Foreign Minister level in December, which I attended with the Foreign Secretary and Foreign Ministers Rassoul and Rabbani Khar. At the September trilateral in the margins of the UN General Assembly, Afghanistan and Pakistan agreed that they would work towards a strategic partnership agreement. Both have since committed to signing such an agreement, which would pave the way to greater economic co-operation as well as co-operation on security and border management.

At the top of the agenda of the trilateral process is serious dialogue about the Afghan peace and reconciliation process. At Chequers, the three leaders made a clear public statement that they supported the opening of a Taliban political office in Doha. This sends a very clear message to the Taliban that now is the time for everyone to participate in a peaceful political process in Afghanistan.

Other regional partners are also engaged in dialogue with Afghanistan and Pakistan. The Turkish and Chinese Governments hold trilateral discussions with both countries, which we welcome, and this support for an Afghan-led peace and reconciliation process is echoed around the region. During the Prime Minister’s recent visit to India, our Governments agreed to establish a new joint working group for a regular bilateral dialogue on peace, security and development in Afghanistan. The joint statement included language that supports a peaceful inter-Afghan dialogue on reconciliation. However, the role of the region goes beyond just supporting an Afghan-led peace process. Looking to the future of Afghanistan beyond 2014, the region must play an even greater role in promoting regional security.

A stable Afghanistan is essential for the whole region. For the central Asian states that share her borders, it is fundamentally important. As ISAF draws down, the central Asian states will face increased security challenges. Our commitment to Afghanistan and the region will go far beyond the end of active combat. We will continue to engage constructively with the region on its security concerns. Central Asia will play an important role not only in the future stability of Afghanistan but in the safe return of our troops and equipment. We are working with the Governments of Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan to agree transit agreements. We recognise the importance of regional fora where issues of wider regional security can be discussed outside a context of NATO and ISAF.

One such forum is the Istanbul Process, which seeks to improve relations between Afghanistan and its neighbours through increased political dialogue and a set of voluntary confidence-building measures that countries implement at their discretion. This is a unique process. It is led by the Afghans and owned by the region. The role of supporter countries and organisations includes the sharing of expertise and technical assistance and financial contributions to support the implementation of confidence-building measures. The UK is supporting confidence-building measures on disaster management, counterterrorism, counternarcotics, regional infrastructure and trade, commerce and investment opportunities.

By working together and helping to bring unity, we will support Afghanistan and the wider region. Projects such as the TAPI gas pipeline, which would link Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India, and the construction of an electric power line, CASA 1000, from Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan to Pakistan via Afghanistan will support economic growth and co-operation alongside other processes such as the EU-Central Asia High-Level Dialogue on Security. We hope this co-operation will help with security issues in Afghanistan and facilitate greater trade and economic links throughout the region, which has such a deep shared trade history. We welcome other regional initiatives, such as the Asian Development Bank-led central Asia regional economic co-operation process, and are clear that all regional processes should seek to collaborate where possible to ensure co-operation and avoid duplication.

Beyond the political framework of the Istanbul Process, partners in the wider region and the Gulf are increasing their commitments to Afghanistan. We are working closely with India on joint efforts to promote sustainable development in Afghanistan. India has pledged $2 billion in aid to Afghanistan, making it the largest regional donor, and we are working with our Emirati partners on development co-operation in Afghanistan, including on infrastructure projects in Helmand. Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan have enjoyed a long-lasting and deep friendship, and the kingdom remains committed to supporting Afghanistan through development projects. The UAE and other Gulf partners also have generous aid programmes for Afghanistan, which is important for developing confidence in the country’s future security, stability and peace.

We welcome China’s deepening commitment to Afghanistan. China has pledged $23.5 million in development aid this year and has brought Afghanistan into the Shanghai Co-operation Organisation as an observer. Russia is also strengthening its activity in Afghanistan, with a focus on economic assistance and investment in infrastructure.

As we look to the future of Afghanistan, we must consider how it can prosper without international aid. Afghanistan has a wealth of natural resources, estimated to be worth $1 trillion to $3 trillion, which has the potential to transform the Afghan economy. Companies from around the region have taken a keen interest in Afghanistan’s mineral wealth and have pledged to make a large investment in the extractive sector. A week ago, I met the Minister for Mines, Wahidullah Shahrani, who was in the UK for the mining, gas and oil investor forum hosted by the Prime Minister. At the forum, the Prime Minister announced the UK’s continued support for the Afghan Ministry of Mines of £10 million over the next three years to help the ministry manage and monitor contracts to ensure that the benefits of Afghanistan’s mineral wealth are felt by the Afghan people. We also discussed how Afghanistan can harness this wealth as it looks to develop a sustainable economy and move away from dependence on aid. Investment must lead to broad-based growth and job creation. This is a challenging task, but with the support of DfID, the Ministry of Mines is working hard to ensure that the Afghan people benefit from the huge mineral resource which is beneath their feet.

As we look to the future of Afghanistan, I have highlighted three main areas for regional co-operation: first, support for a political settlement; secondly, support for regional security; and thirdly, investment to build Afghanistan into a self-sustaining and prosperous state. Clearly the international community has a role in all three of these, and the UK will continue to work closely with Afghanistan and its neighbours. I look forward to noble Lords’ insights into the role of all the countries in the region and welcome the increasing engagement of all neighbouring countries at the heart of Asia. I beg to move.

12:14

[Lord Parekh]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, who has introduced the subject with the characteristic fairness which we have come to expect of her, and with a great deal of historical learning. If I disagree with her from time to time those disagreements are largely minor and serve only to correct—as I see it—certain interpretations.

The UN-mandated military operations have been going on since 2001 and, as far as I can see, we have little to show for the past 12 years. Violence continues on all sides; rampant corruption is startling and visible. Afghanistan today is rated as 180 out of 183 countries; seven years ago, it had the honour of being 140 out of 183. There is a huge waste of resources. Money everywhere is wrongly used or used to buy people and corrupt the cultural life of the country. Violence has become a profitable industry. You only have to set up a little insurgent group and there are people who are ready to buy you or to offer you all kinds of services.

Ethnic divisions, happily, have abated a little, but they remain just as acute, and there is no stable political system. This has tended to happen despite the enormous amount of money and the enormous amount of political wisdom pouring in from all parts of the world—including from countries which cannot manage their own affairs but are very generous with advice. In spite of all that, why have we not succeeded in creating a reasonably stable political system in a small country?

I think that part of the reason is that we have been ignoring certain basic realties of Afghan life. Some 80% of it is rural, and 87% of its people earn their livelihood through agriculture-related activities. Many communities are separated by mountains and it can take days to reach them. There is an informal power structure based on ethnic, regional, tribal, clan and village loyalties. The centralised governance which the modern state presupposes and which everyone has kept recommending since the Bonn conference is simply not possible.

Afghanistan needs to evolve its own political structure and that structure cannot be imposed or propped up by outsiders. Afghanistan cannot relive somebody else’s history. We discovered that very painfully in India when the Constituent Assembly was trying to draft the constitution and realised that the modern nation state is simply not an option for India, and India did not opt for it.

One of the important things to bear in mind, therefore, is to stop outside interference except for the kind of aid and advice that it might need. We need to trust the people of Afghanistan to sort out their own differences. After all, they have lived together all these years; they want to live together; they share a future; they know—as the Minister said—that they have trillions of dollars that they can make proper use of; and they have their own children whom they would like to see educated. We need to trust the people of Afghanistan to evolve a structure which is appropriate to their own history, traditions and culture. A traditional loya jirga, for example, can be a good starting point.

In all this negative publicity we tend to forget that there are some powerful civil society movements in Afghanistan. In spite of having been a student of politics, I had not been aware of them until a few weeks ago, when I was addressing an important “Festival of Ideas” in Goa. I spoke on one day, and the person who addressed the meeting the next day was Dr Yacoobi, an Afghan professor of education in the United States who decided to return to Afghanistan and to take on the Taliban on her own. She said that girls will be educated—they will be sent to schools and the schools will not be touched. She relied on persuasion, on power and on organisation, reaching out to the daughters and wives of the Taliban leaders themselves, telling them that the future was theirs if only they would go to school. Slowly and slowly, despite threats to her life, she has been able to create a fairly powerful movement. It is not surprising that she, along with many others, has been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize. Movements of this kind exist. Society has a certain vitality, if the Taliban would only allow it to breathe—which they do not seem to be doing.

I am sorry to say that Pakistan’s role, which could have been and should be useful, has not been terribly helpful. It has provided backing, safe haven and even military training to insurgent groups, including the Taliban. It is using those groups, particularly the Haqqani network, to attack Indian interests and targets in Afghanistan; for example, the Indian embassy in 2008 and 2009 and even the United States embassy in 2011. Not surprisingly, the recently retired chief of staff of the United States called the Haqqani network the “veritable arm” of Pakistan’s ISI. Sadly, if you try to provoke violence of this kind, or support terrorism in other countries, it has a blowback effect on your own. The result is that the Pakistan Taliban uses Afghan territory as a safe haven and a springboard to launch attacks on Pakistani troops, which we all bitterly regret. In other words, Pakistan, by supporting insurgent movements in Afghanistan, is paying the price in terms of its own stability and the security of its own people.

This happens in international politics—there is no use in being sentimental or sanctimonious about it—but what are Pakistan’s reasons? It argues that Afghanistan offers strategic depth against potential conflict with India. However, you cannot think of other countries simply in terms of conflict, and you cannot think of India simply as a country with which you are eternally condemned to fight one war or another. And even if you do, Afghanistan cannot provide strategic depth.

There is also the argument that India is using Afghans, or Afghanistan, to foment trouble in Pakistan. Again, I have seen no evidence of this—and if there is, India deserves to be condemned. So far, however, I have not seen it. I do not think that it would be in India’s interests. Talking to Indian diplomats I get the feeling that it would not be in India’s interests to use Afghanistan to foment trouble in Pakistan, because one Afghanistan is enough. Half a dozen Afghanistans in the heart of Pakistan would hardly be the way for India to be stable.

I think that Pakistan needs to recognise that India has a legitimate interest in Afghanistan: first, to maintain trade with central Asia and beyond; secondly, to prevent militants from attacking Indian targets in Afghanistan; and thirdly, because it has close historical and cultural ties that need to be maintained. It is very striking that India has signed an agreement that it would not use its troops or combat personnel in Afghanistan. Its activities, as the Minister rightly said, are largely developmental. It is the fifth-largest provider of development aid, giving over $1.5 billion to various projects.

I sometimes wonder whether our own Government’s policy is as even-handed and transparent as it could be. On the one hand they seem suspicious and critical of what Pakistan is doing; but on the other hand they organise meetings such as the trilateral summit in February this year, where they seem to be supportive of what is going on and give the impression, certainly to Indians, that they want to keep the Indians out and that they think we can maintain peace in the region simply by establishing some kind of relationship with Pakistan and Afghanistan. That is not the way to go. I very much hope that the British Government will make it absolutely clear that, as the noble Baroness said, all the regional powers in the neighbourhood have a legitimate role in maintaining a stable Afghanistan —they all need to be involved. Bilateral or trilateral summits simply arouse Indian suspicion and are not the answer.

11:14

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine]

My Lords, I begin by thanking my noble friend Lady Warsi for introducing this debate in a thoroughly rounded and comprehensive manner, well illustrating the challenges that this subject raises.

A British Prime Minister declares that now is the time for everyone to participate in a peaceful political process in Afghanistan. One might legitimately ask whether this is the late 18th century, the 1920s, or perhaps last month at Chequers. It could easily be any of all three. That Afghanistan has the capacity to destabilise its neighbourhood is uncontested, but it is also a country that finds itself in a particularly unsavoury neighbourhood, surrounded by, in the north, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan, et al, acknowledged to be some of the most authoritarian, poorly governed and dysfunctional states of the former Soviet Union. Iran, its western neighbour, has continued on its post-1979 project to be the guardian of Shia interests around the world, irrespective of the force of international law, as we have seen demonstrated in the Middle East but also in western Afghanistan itself. Here, apart from a short window of co-operation in 2002, Iran has seen its role as a spoiler, resisting US-Afghan strategic co-operation, profiting, it is alleged, from the narcotics trade, funding armed shipments and training the Taliban. That is hardly a recipe for neighbourly relations.

The most difficult relationship between Afghanistan and its neighbours is that with Pakistan, and it is primarily on that relationship that I shall focus my remarks today. There was a time of cordial relations between Pakistan and Afghanistan, but it was a relatively brief window and is easily forgotten: the period between the 1950s and the late 1970s, when trade was undertaken, people-to-people contact was strong, and both Kabul and Peshawar were interdependent. The intervening 35 years from then to today have resulted first in Afghanistan becoming a near failed state, and now Pakistan, mainly due to its own internal dynamics, is also deeply unstable.

While the trajectory of decline in Afghanistan from the time of the Soviet invasion is well known, it is difficult to see how we can, in the words of the Prime Minister at Chequers last month,

“see a strong relationship between Afghanistan and Pakistan built on greater trust”.

Let me turn to the aims of the Chequers six-month push for peace, as it is described, the principle of which is a peace and reconciliation programme. There are three fundamental issues at stake. The first is the Karzai Government’s ability to attain peace with their Taliban, given that the Taliban office intended for Qatar nearly two years ago has still not arrived, although, as the noble Baroness has told us, the new initiative will be a Doha-based political office, and talks are likely to go ahead shortly. However, the history of peace initiatives with the Taliban is not likely to deliver results, particularly when the US is not actively involved—and to my mind, six months is not nearly long enough to see delivery.

If the Chequers summit had been more broadly based to include at least the United States as financial guarantor, we might have given this a greater push. But without wishing for a replication of the Bonn II meeting, which was very wide indeed, it would be illuminating to assess what discussions might have been conducted with the Saudi Government about their support for the most radical elements in the Taliban, both in Afghanistan and Pakistan, which have been historical and, some say, ongoing.

My noble friend said that Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan have a deep and lasting friendship, but given the history of its destabilisation in both Afghanistan and Pakistan, I wonder whether players on either side would subscribe unanimously to that remark. Moreover, the role of the UAE as the principal recipient of the proceeds of corruption, as the destination of choice for Afghans depositing their ill gotten gains, is also to be scrutinised. What attempts in this six-month period are Her Majesty's Government likely to make with the United States in seeking to assess how much terrorist funding is channelled through the UAE, and what steps will be taken to curb that?

The second fundamental in bringing about peace is the role of Pakistan, which may not actively seek to destabilise Afghanistan any longer but certainly does not play as constructive a role as it might, given the shared challenges of the terrorist factions in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas and their activities on both sides of the border. The role of Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence agency’s operations in Afghanistan is probably the best documented record of a deep and concerted policy of destabilisation by one state on another. This is down to Pakistan’s long sought doctrine of strategic depth, discussed earlier by the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, which is based on the idea that its influence over Afghanistan—some might even say its control of Afghanistan—represents some sort of strategic depth against India. The perversity of this thinking in Pakistan is that if your attempts at control do not work, you end up with enemies on both your eastern and western flanks. I am aware that the US and the United Kingdom are hopeful that the rapprochement between Kabul and Islamabad will work this time, but I have to say I have my doubts.

I was told by an Afghan Minister only last week that the agreement from the Chequers summit that the Pakistan army would be involved in training the Afghan National Security Forces is now under threat. His explanation was that since Chequers, Islamabad has sought to exert greater pressure on Kabul for Afghan foreign policy to be somehow approved by Pakistan. This is clearly unacceptable to Kabul, and I understand that talks have now recommenced with India to see if India can fill the gap in that training for the Afghan National Security Forces. It undoubtedly can, and since it has a strategic partnership agreement with Pakistan, which gives it a formal role in guaranteeing Afghan security, it would be entirely in keeping with India’s strategic goal of denying Pakistan any strategic advantage in that country. I have to say that I cannot see the extremely benign role that the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, ascribes to India. It has historically always worked to manipulate Pakistan-Afghanistan discord. If my Afghan interlocutor was correct, this is another illustration of how very challenging the task of maintaining regional security will be.

However, the final fundamental that was not addressed at Chequers was the ability and inclination of Pakistan to bring its own house in order. I refer to the various Taliban and other terrorist groups operating across the border. It has long been acknowledged that the main elements of al-Qaeda’s leadership reside in Pakistan. Since the capture of Osama bin Laden, it is also widely believed that Ayman al-Zawahiri is not in the tribal areas but resides in the so-called “settled” areas of Pakistan; in other words, he lives in comfort in some city. We know that the Haqqani network continues to launch attacks and control myriad insurgency groups. Its interests in the drugs trade, arms trade, kidnappings, murders and terrorist bombings make it the most difficult of the terrorist groups with a stake in this conflict. Given that its interests are so deeply entrenched, and that it is so financially dependent on this ongoing conflict and on keeping it going, I cannot see how it will be demobilised. Its listing in the US as a terrorist organisation is long overdue, but I do not see Pakistan bringing it to any kind of negotiation. It simply does not have that in its power.

Finally, there is the influence of Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan, the umbrella group of the various Salafi, Deobandi and Wahhabi groups, which were created by ISI initially to counter the Soviet invasion as well as the Shia threat after the Iranian revolution of 1979. They are distinct from the anti-Indian terrorist grouping so well established in Pakistan, too. The Pakistanis have discovered that while the main aim of these groups was to “repulse the invader”, as it is called, be he an Indian, Iranian, Soviet or American, their ideology has now evolved.

With levels of violence in all parts of Pakistan up—by some 300% in Karachi to some 40% in Lahore—the Pakistani public justifiably ask what these groups now want. With the restoration of a civilian Government for some years, it is instructive that they are themselves subject to attacks from these groups. Their aim seems to be to build a fully theocratic state within Pakistan, subscribing to their vision of a true Islam. One of their means of doing this is to form electoral pacts with the mainstream political parties in order to be able to enter the Pakistani parliament, and to wield the influence and power that that brings. As this process of Islamisation of Pakistan continues through the use of violence, and now political entryism, I cannot see much progress in a stable Pakistan emerging as a strong and constructive partner for Afghanistan.

However, in order to support Pakistan in its attempts to recalibrate its policy towards Afghanistan, I know that Her Majesty’s Government seek an orderly transition to a new civilian Government in Pakistan. Indeed, my noble friend has spoken of the UK’s engagement in bringing about a robust and transparent electoral process. I wonder whether she will be able to tell the House what steps we are taking to monitor the elections in Pakistan. A stable Afghanistan will be a prize that will reinvigorate the region and enhance development, trade and the overall economies of the entire region. We know that development is a factor in reducing conflict, and the absence of conflict is a precondition for freedom. Achieving that across Afghanistan, Pakistan and India would be a prize indeed.

12:36

[The Earl of Sandwich]

My Lords, the Minister covered a vast area and I envy her trip to Bukhara and Samarkand. I hope that we shall all achieve that. It is a pleasure to join her in such an upbeat and constructive debate on Afghanistan because it is a country which will always depend on the strength of its links with its immediate neighbours. However, so much uncertainty may mean that what we say will be largely speculation. Having been puzzled by the wording of the debate, I nevertheless fully understand the Government’s motivation for tabling it.

Are we bold enough to say that Afghanistan even has the prospect of becoming a united country? In my view, after ISAF’s withdrawal, it will still require subtle partnerships not only with neighbours but with provincial warlords to achieve relative unity and ensure a reasonably stable coalition at the centre. If we have learnt one lesson in 12 years—the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, reminded us of this—it is surely that over every mountain is another form of loyalty to family, tribe and the shura, normally before that of central government. However, there will always be central government in some form, and it is the job of this debate to identify what forms of regional co-operation are going to achieve the most secure results. In the absence of ISAF, Afghanistan will have to fall even further back on the good will of its neighbours, and they are pulling it in different directions. The Istanbul Process was a good idea but perhaps too ambitious, and the key bilateral partnerships with India and Pakistan will always be restrained by the endemic rift between those two countries, although I am very glad to hear of the improvements in the links between Pakistan and Afghanistan and the transit trade agreement and the new strategic partnership agreement. They will always be helpful in achieving reconciliation.

Iran has a common language with Afghanistan. It has many close regional ties with Herat province and we may be underplaying its role in a future Afghanistan. I am never clear why our relations with Iran seem to inhibit us from making this point. It is true that our embassy and the British Council in Tehran have been badly treated, as I saw for myself when I visited Tehran, but so have they in Moscow. I know from fairly recent experience that there is a great affection for the UK among people in Tehran, and I hope the Minister would agree that there is room for discussion about development along the Iranian border, perhaps through DfID or EU funded NGOs, as I believe there has been in the past over the narcotics trade.

Security is not part of this debate but it is almost impossible to discuss regional relationships without mentioning the background of insecurity and terrorism which has frustrated so many initiatives. Most critical of all is the inability of the Afghan Karzai Government to come to terms with any of the Taliban, the Haqqani group, the Quetto groups, the ISI-created groups mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, or the cronies of the dreaded and mercurial Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, to name but a few. Indeed, the Afghan Government have been unable to identify any lasting relationship either side of the Pakistan border.

We have heard that there are a number of initiatives in international trade and development, and this is why I will today confine myself to soft diplomacy, as it is called. The Afghan Government’s website states:

“Through regional cooperation, Afghanistan wishes to improve trading opportunities, integrate itself with regional railways and road networks, become an important partner in regional energy markets, and eliminate narcotics trade”,

and achieve millennium development goals. That is a tall order—trade, transport, energy, narcotics and MDGs. I will consider just trade and MDGs. Trade is perhaps the most important of all because it actively concerns and develops people’s livelihoods. It is happening every day, bringing goods and services across all borders, despite the insecurity. Afghanistan already has bilateral agreements with Pakistan and India and its membership of the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation, SAARC, should be helping to build its partnership with both countries. I should be interested in the Minister’s comments. The association aims to promote the welfare of the peoples of the region through accelerated economic, social and cultural development. Afghanistan joined the association in 2007. What has it to show for that?

I remember watching the reconstruction of destroyed small towns and villages outside Kabul, such as Istalif. I saw how dependent the people were on imports of, for example, roofing timber from Pakistan, and all the appalling delays in ordering and transporting it. What Afghanistan needs is more of its own timber so that development is more sustainable. Perhaps the noble Baroness can forecast what our role will be in trade promotion after 2014, especially in agricultural exports, which are the potential winners. To the north and west, there is the important international trade route through Uzbekistan used by ISAF. What is its future? We know that there is considerable local traffic across a long border with Iran. We have heard about mineral exploration and co-operation on proposed pipelines, which are promising.

The Pakistan border is in a special category because of the refugee camps in Peshawar, where many of today’s decision-makers grew up and were educated in exile. This is how many of the Afghan NGOs developed, in partnership with the aid agencies. That building up of civil society has been very important, both before 2001 during the rule of the Taliban, and since. After our armed intervention, when the mist of antiterrorism had receded, development became our principal motive for public support for our intervention in that country, as we have, usually for bona fide reasons, intervened in many poor countries around the world, although not as dramatically as in Afghanistan. I was delighted to hear from the Minister that the UK intends to remain in Afghanistan through international development for another decade. That is saying a lot. In the knowledge that DfID is reducing its programme in India, I ask for a reassurance that the Government will begin now to encourage and support development and co-operation between India and Afghanistan, given that India has much experience in that field.

I will mention one important millennium development goal that affects Afghanistan—water and sanitation. About 300,000 children in south Asia die from diarrhoea every year and more than half the population of Afghanistan lacks improved water facilities, and nearly two-thirds lacks sanitation facilities. The WHO estimates—this must be repeated as often as possible—that for every $1 invested in water, sanitation or hygiene, $3 or $4 come into the national revenue. As the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Bath and Wells knows from his connection with WaterAid, the noble Lord, Lord McColl, and I are joining a parliamentary delegation to the Kathmandu valley this coming weekend to draw attention to the importance of water and sanitation in south Asia. I am beginning to do that here and now. It will be a regional event and will be joined by MPs from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and elsewhere in a street march to the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation headquarters.

Another objective of the campaign is to highlight the work of the high-level panel on the post-2015 millennium development goals, which is meeting in Bali this month and has to come to a decision in May. Perhaps I may send a signal to our Prime Minister that WASH—water and sanitation and hygiene—is still only a subsection of MDG 7 on sustainability and needs to be upgraded in the next round. While drinking water targets are being reached generally by 2015, the world is still well short of the targets for sanitation and hygiene. I hope that the Minister can take back that message.

Afghanistan must play an increasingly active part in these international associations. I hope that our Government will ensure, post-2014, that this continues to happen. I congratulate the noble Baroness on her personal role in this region.

12:46

[The Lord Bishop of Bath and Wells]

My Lords, I, too, welcome this opportunity to debate the regional relationships with respect to Afghanistan. I have noted with interest the remarks of the Minister following her recent visit to the area and the range of her talks on transition, elections and women’s rights. These, together with steps towards peacemaking in the region, are subjects in which many of us within the church and wider society in Britain have an interest and concern.

Chief among these concerns is the issue of conflict resolution and peacemaking. Like other noble Lords, I do not underestimate the difficulties involved in achieving some kind of regional security. I draw your Lordships’ attention to the words of the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury, who recently blogged that,

“the journey of transforming conflict is a long and hard one”,

adding,

“by the way that is how I understand reconciliation in the church: not as agreement, but conflict transformed from being destructive”.

As we look at the situation in Afghanistan and the region in which it resides, the question that we need to face more than any other is one which enables conflict to be transformed from being destructive, in order to move to a place where reconciliation can take place. There is little doubt that this conflict has been destructive and that there is a need for transformative action—not least because the commitment, sacrifice and welfare needs of serving personnel and veterans demand it, and because there is a need to acknowledge and address Britain’s weariness with a decade-long conflict that has eclipsed the wider debate on our moral and political responsibilities towards a post-2014 Afghanistan.

As other noble Lords have remarked, the need for an inclusive peace process in Afghanistan, and between Afghanistan and the wider region, with appropriate confidence-building measures to achieve this, is paramount. Key to any process is the moral imperative of justice after war. Such consideration includes not just moral or ethical issues over the process of ending war, but the moral considerations that govern post-war relationships between the victorious and the defeated.

In parentheses, reports in last Sunday’s newspapers, most notably the Sunday Telegraph, on the 10th anniversary of the Iraq conflict, revealed some of the concerns felt by senior military and diplomatic personnel on the lack then of preparedness and planning for after the end of that conflict. Since withdrawal in 2011, the disintegration into sectarian paralysis is alarming and should serve as a warning to the management of any post-withdrawal programme in Afghanistan. It is to be hoped that we have lessons to learn here.

The key to any peace process is the conduct of operations in Afghanistan and in the border region with Pakistan, and this must include the use of drones and the treatment of prisoners, as well as the need for dialogue with the armed opposition—notably, authorised representatives of the Taliban. I note with gratitude both the statement of the Foreign Secretary in January and remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, on the difficulties of achieving this, but the opening of a Taliban office is an integral and important step forward in the Afghan peace and reconciliation effort.

Much of what is currently proposed in terms of peace and reconciliation is a top-down approach, particularly in relation to Pakistan. In and of itself, that should not be underestimated. However, as has already been pointed out, there are considerable regional implications that go beyond a bilateral peace process, many of which are historical. I note with gratitude that any peace process in which we are endeavouring to engage at present looks to the wider communities—India, Saudi Arabia and China among them—but, equally, that the historic involvement of Iran, which to a lesser degree is supporting insurgency, cannot be overlooked. Indeed, the remarks of the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, and the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, each presenting slightly different aspects of the question of Iran, lead me to conclude that, although it may be very optimistic to propose it, the inclusion of Iran in any wider Afghan peace process could also prise open the door a little to the much needed regional peace process in the Middle East. This is not a conflict, or series of conflicts, that stands on its own.

I welcome the Minister’s remarks concerning the considerable mineral wealth of Afghanistan and its potential for the future well-being and financing of that country. It would be good if that happened, and we should not allow a situation to occur as it did in Congo, where a great deal of the mineral and other wealth was bought up, leaving the country poor and benefiting only the investors. Whatever the detail, Afghanistan will not be at peace until all the Governments in the region see a common interest in peacemaking.

I remarked a moment or two ago that a top-down approach, while positive, has its limitations. I have indicated that common interest in Afghanistan’s potential for peace requires a broad coalition of actors of varying merit. In any peace process it is also important to keep close to the ground and to see the potential in locally promoted initiatives, in the work of international aid and development organisations, and in the role and place of women. The noble Lord, Lord Parekh, remarked earlier on the value of the local community at the rural level, and the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, spoke about the place of aid and of civil society organisations. These always play a fundamental part in the creation of any significant peace process being worked out on the ground.

In her remarks upon her return, the Minister observed the difficulties that women have faced because of the deeply conservative culture in parts of their country. She also reflected that over the past 10 years there has been a determination to protect women’s rights and to ensure, as in any peace process, that gains made in the past 10 years are not lost. I welcome her assurances on this. However, I also recall Amnesty International’s campaign, launched ahead of International Women’s Day, calling on the United Kingdom Government to “significantly improve” their work in support of Afghan women’s rights and in combating violence against women and girls in that country.

Although Her Majesty’s Government have expressed themselves to be a “staunch supporter” of Afghan women’s rights, little of their recent work in Afghanistan has focused specifically on those rights. Of the 100 reconstruction and development projects in Afghanistan supported by DfID, only two have specifically addressed women’s rights, and both were completed in 2010. Any peace process that ignores the fundamental human rights of women and girls will be a scandal.

In conclusion, the transformation of conflict is a priority for Afghanistan and its regional partners. This long, frequently bitter and costly conflict must end both positively and hopefully. Lessons to be learnt from the Iraq theatre provide us with the potential to make, in time, a “good peace”. To be successful, the views and perspectives of the other actors—India, Iran, Russia and Turkey, Saudi Arabia and China—are essential. However, above all, if war is believed to have been “just” to any degree, then the establishment of just peace is its corollary. Only if that is demonstrated can the cost of all the human lives lost in any way be mitigated.

12:55

[Lord Bates]

My Lords, I, too, pay tribute to my noble friend for securing this debate and for the way she introduced it. She is a real breath of fresh air in an area which is often dominated by impenetrable foreign policy elites who have their own private conservations and reach their own conclusions, which sometimes bewilder us. Some of those elites were telling us 13 years ago that the invasion in 2001 would deal swiftly with the enemy. We then put in place the groundwork for the presidential election in 2004 and many people were suddenly telling us that the Taliban would be exposed, that we would have human rights and democracy, and that effectively we would have a country such as Denmark. However, we do not have that. That fact that 10 years later we are still wrestling with these impossible challenges is something that ought to humble us. That is very much the theme of my contribution today. I want to make the argument that essential to the success of the push for peace are truth and honesty about our roles on all sides. That then leads to humility and respect, and from that we can start to build trust. That is the foundation on which relations must be built.

Let us deal, first, with some harsh realities. These are very difficult statements to hear. My honourable friend in another place, Rory Stewart, who understands this region very well, wrote an article in the Financial Times in September last year saying that it was time to be honest about Afghanistan. He said:

“The gap between the language of policy makers and the reality is typical. It is time to be honest about Afghanistan: we face a desperate situation and an intolerable choice”.

He continued:

“They have tried ‘ink-spots’ and ‘development zones’; counterinsurgency and nation-building; partnering and mentoring; military surges, civilian surges and reconciliation. Generals and ministers called 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 and 2011 ‘decisive’ years in Afghanistan. None was. None will be”.

That is pretty stark as a statement. Those who regard themselves as being privileged to live in this country recognise the honourable service and sacrifice of our British forces, 440 of whom have lost their lives and thousands of whom have been injured. However, I do not think that we honour their sacrifice by somehow dismissing the mistakes that have been made and the problems that exist. We honour their sacrifice by being honest and true and by expressing our determination that these efforts will succeed.

I want to point to where we can learn from our experience in Northern Ireland and talk about the elements that are important if there is to be a lasting peace. I very much welcome the push for peace announced by the parties at the Chequers summit on 4 February. The first point is that the parties to the conflict have to be the parties to the peace. We can all get on our high horse and say, “We’re not going to talk to them. They’re evil and guilty of atrocities. We’re not going to sit in the same room as them”, and so on. If we had done that, we would not have got anywhere near having peace on the ground in Northern Ireland, we would not have released people who had been guilty of terrorist outrages before their sentences had been expended, we would not have sat down and talked to Sinn Fein, and we would not have had the negotiations that led to the Good Friday agreement. So the parties to the conflict, however difficult it may be, have to be the parties to the peace. That means that there needs to be a role for the Taliban and for other organisations around the table because there can be no peace without them. I was interested in the suggestion from the right reverend Prelate that perhaps there is also a role for Iran. Everything within us says, “What? Iran? You’re kidding”. But if we want peace, we have to start talking rather than posturing. That is our lesson.

As preparations get under way for the Kabul follow-up conference next month, consideration must be given to that. I should be grateful if the Minister would comment on the role that the Taliban will play and whether, as some evidence suggests, it will lead to other very important parties, particularly from Pakistan, saying that they will not attend because the Taliban will not be present. We need to face up to that point. The second point, which has been very well covered by the noble Lord, Lord Parekh, is that whatever the solution, it cannot be imposed but must evolve and come from local people; it must be their solution, not ours. I made a note of the excellent line that Afghanistan cannot relive someone else’s history. That is very profound and true, and we need the centrality of Afghanistan having its own solutions.

We also know from our experience in Northern Ireland that the economy is critical to any success. We know that poverty and economic deterioration are challenges, whether in Northern Ireland or Afghanistan. That causes concern. I was reading a report from Oxford Analytica, which said:

“As NATO withdraws the economy will contract”.

Why will it contract? It stated that it is because,

“90% of the Afghan budget comes from foreign donors and 97% of the total economy is linked to the NATO presence and foreign aid”,

with the other 3% coming from opium production. That is not quite the basis for a long-term sustainable economy, so the economy is critical.

I come to my final point on the absolute rejection of violence as a means of achieving an end. Some will say, “That is completely unreasonable; you can’t say that in Afghanistan. Don’t you understand what is going on?”. We understood very well what was going on in Northern Ireland, yet it was only when it was laid down in the Good Friday declaration that all the parties affirmed their,

“total and absolute commitment to exclusively democratic and peaceful means of resolving differences on political issues”,

that progress began to be made. There needs to be an absolute rejection of violence by all parties around the table. But, of course, that means some tough points for us. I was disturbed to read that less than a week after the Chequers summit, which held out that positive hope of the push for peace, that NATO’s ISAF forces were called in to launch an air strike in a village in eastern Afghanistan where there were believed to be Taliban fighters. There were, but as well as the homes destroyed, 10 women and children were killed, and tens more were injured. That led to some forthright words from President Karzai; “How could they ask foreigners to send in planes and bomb our own houses?”. It is a problem. If there is to be lasting peace, there must also be restraint in these crucial days and months.

On 2 March, less than a month after the Chequers summit, we had that terrible incident, again involving NATO’s ISAF, when two boys, mistaken for insurgents, were gunned down by a helicopter gun ship. How could they be mistaken for insurgents? They were both under seven years old; they were gathering firewood in a field and were walking behind a donkey. These are serious charges. When we want to give an example of how Afghanistan can prosper in the future we must set harsh targets. Such conduct would not be tolerated at all in our own country. When Jean Charles de Menezes was shot, we had endless inquiries. There were inquiries into Patrick Finucane and Bloody Sunday. There have been endless inquiries in our own country, but we did not even acknowledge the names of the two boys who were killed in that incident. Elsewhere they are named as Toor Jan and Andul Wodood, and they deserve to be recognised and their families deserve to be cared for.

Such incidents undermine the push for peace, however well intentioned they are. We must exercise restraint in the conduct of violence. These people are not statistics; they are not collateral damage. They are real people going about their daily work in their own country and we need to recognise that. It is difficult but it is possible, but it will come about only if all the parties join together and renounce the use of violence. All the parties must acknowledge their mistakes and together express their desire to seek a justice system, a way of resolving disputes without violence and the prosperity of the people of Afghanistan. We all wish them well in that.

13:07

[Lord Triesman]

My Lords, it has been helpful to have this debate today, and I appreciate that the Minister has provided us with the opportunity to do so. I share the view expressed, and appreciate her contribution to the work that is being done in the region. I express the same appreciation for other Members of your Lordships’ House for the work that they have done as well. Irrespective of agreement or nuances of disagreement that may emerge today, the opportunity for a review at this moment is very welcome. Sometimes detailed discussion and analysis on Afghanistan seem to vanish from the agenda altogether. I think that, given our national commitment to resolving some of the problems of Afghanistan, it is hard to understand that, but it does happen.

First things first. We debate Afghanistan and its region against the background of the combat engagement of our forces. Their courage and heroism deserve both our unstinting praise and the reflection that they are and remain the very best of our nation. They protect, as the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, said, our security interests. That is why they are there. But they are not the only heroes in the story, although, of course, they are placed at the greatest possible risk. Our embassy staff do a remarkable job. The aid workers also do a remarkable job and fill me with pride about the United Kingdom at its best. The same goes for the unsung members of our intelligence services. It is no criticism of any of them at all—none in the slightest—to try to draw up a balance sheet and ask: what are the key issues now? How are they being prosecuted? What has gone right and what has not, and what should we do now?

I want to look at these questions to assess how we stand in the region. I do so, and know how true this is, without the exceptional background resources and latest intelligence appraisals that are always available to Ministers on these occasions. Noble Lords may have to allow for any imprecision or gaps in knowledge on my part. Also, I cannot assess anything other than the work we are doing with our allies. We are not doing this on our own, and the impact of the alliances through NATO and especially the United States establishes particular conditions in which we conduct much of our work, not least in our relationship with Kabul.

My noble friend Lord Parekh was relatively optimistic about some aspects and less so about others. I am not generally speaking a pessimist, but on this occasion I am slightly on the side of pessimism. I wonder whether what we have heard today from the Government really speaks to the full scale of the challenges. That does seem to be an issue. The word “welcome” has been used a number of times, but can we really see in the category of successes an outstanding list of things that we would genuinely welcome as signs of success?

The United Kingdom and the United States are about a year away from a substantial diminution of their military presence in Afghanistan, while others have already left or lowered their numbers. Although we are committed to the longer-term training and mentoring programmes we will not, as the Minister has said, be in the combat roles. Wisely, or more likely perhaps not entirely wisely, we have given our enemies considerable notice, allowing them to repurpose their strategic resources and programmes in the country. It seems all but certain that, whatever the real gains that have been made, Afghanistan will none the less be left with a precarious security problem. As the noble Lord, Lord Bates, said a moment ago, there is likely to be a significant economic downturn, along with political and social institutions in which many Afghans have very little confidence. They believe that, on some grounds, the institutions lack legitimacy. I am not clear on the extent of the risk of civil war being led by disparate warlords, but I suppose that any assessment must say that it is likely. Indeed, there could be a general internal conflict. In such circumstances it is not clear how we, the United States, the wider community or the neighbouring community will prosecute key interests and what options would really be open to us.

The helpful House of Lords Library brief—I congratulate the staff on it—illustrates each of these points. It counterposes the official narrative on security improvements, which is partly justified but not universally accepted as being the most accurate account there could be, with a bleak disbelief about the quality of the emerging Afghan forces. I am bound to say that while we should not gravitate towards any kind of complete pessimism, some recent media, including TV coverage, suggest frightening levels of military incompetence on the part of some of those forces. That is along with the abuse of women and small boys by members of the forces, some of whom appear to have serious drug problems as they prosecute the business of military involvement and command.

The Library brief shows what any economist would regard as an economy that is growing now but that is beyond fragility in the middle term. That is illustrated not simply by the aid requirements. As matters stand, the reliance on different agricultural products at the levels illustrated by my noble friend Lord Parekh leaves little scope for externally tradable goods, except arguably for heroin, and even the internal distribution of agricultural products is inadequate. The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, also talked about the complexity of the politics that lie in the background to all this, and I share his view. The remoteness of political institutions that are far from the reach of many Afghans, the persistent corruption that puts Afghanistan in the bronze medal position in international tables for corruption, and the weakness of the rule of law suggest fertile ground for all kinds of groups to return, not least the Taliban, whether a negotiation moderates its position or not. Drawdown is likely to make the role of institution-building a regional target, but it is hard to see how realistically that is to be achieved. I do not want to be hopeless about the situation, but I do want to understand what we need in order to do it properly.

However, it has to be said that there are things on the positive side, although I have to say that I find it impossible to agree with the Prime Minister’s somewhat effervescent belief that so many things are approaching the sunny uplands. I regret that that is a worrying and somewhat shallow view, because I can see no evidence that everything is going well. It is clear that Afghanistan is marginally safer today. There are fewer civilian casualties and many of them are the victims of the Taliban. The national solidarity programmes have embedded significant aid progress and processes, of which many are cost-efficient and popular. However, the reality is that they have barely marginalised corrupt local officials. Thousands of schools and major irrigation projects have been built, and in this regard I accept the analysis of the international community that President Karzai has performed in a competent way. However, after the drawdown, it is not clear how the incoming forces will occupy the space. My assessment, for what it is worth, is that it is not likely that the Taliban will occupy it or become the hosts of al-Qaeda again in a straightforward way, but that does not mean that other warlords and factional regional groups will not move in. Indeed, cross-border factions are important in this regard.

GDP in Afghanistan has grown but, as we have heard, it is vulnerable to any dip in aid and to the structural features of the economy itself. However, growth there has been—a tenfold growth in 10 years—while life expectancy has gone up by 18 years over the same decade. A great deal has gone right, but as the noble Lord, Lord Bates, was saying, a great many things still look like extremely big challenges. Like my noble friend Lord Parekh, I doubt that we understand the country or the region adequately. Given the frailties, as we pull out it is quite possible that we will abandon all our security interests in that part of south Asia as a whole, not just in Afghanistan. Progress has been made on the status of women and girls, some of it in pursuit of UNSCR 1325 on women, peace and security, which emphasises the healthier prospects for peace in a nation when women are enabled to participate and play an active role. Has the Prime Minister raised this in the trilateral discussions in order to ensure that it is a process that is capable of being continued?

After drawdown, there is a sharp risk that any advances could be thrown into reverse. Gains in schools have been made, but they are not easily sustained either in Afghanistan or in other parts of the region. When we consider the impact of the region on Afghanistan, we necessarily focus on Pakistan. Here, I welcome the work on Pakistan of the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, which has been refreshing in exactly the way many noble Lords have described. However, it should be acknowledged that the problems of dealing with terrorism in the region are complicated. I recognise fully and acknowledge the sacrifices that have been made by Pakistan in combating terrorism, but it is vital to the United Kingdom that Pakistan should none the less change to a greater extent. Parts of it cannot be allowed to remain like a failed state, much less a failed nuclear state, but can those changes be accomplished? It is hard to see real consistency in our approach to this question. We provide military and financial support to a country that also appears to shelter insurgency in difficult parts of its terrain. Of course, it bravely fights any insurgency that is directed at itself, but the hot/cold relationship with Afghanistan leaves a feeling that there is still complicity with some terrorism in Afghanistan.

Any aid to the Haqqani faction, which I can regard only as a major crime family, would be a disgraceful development. The United Nations should list it as a terrorist organisation. Its only realistic role is to destabilise Indian interests at the behest of what I suspect are some factions inside the intelligence community in Pakistan. A proxy war between the subcontinent’s nuclear powers is a dangerous proposition.

We may very well have to work doubly hard to ensure that relationships between all the countries in the region are more successful. I wonder whether we really have developed a comprehensive political strategy and whether we have not relied too much on military force. I still fear that that may be the case. My right honourable friend the shadow Foreign Secretary has consistently advocated stepping up the political strategy, and before each of the major conferences that we have heard mentioned today—Tokyo, Istanbul and Chicago—has asked, as I do today, precisely what our political contribution is and whether we are failing to debate it often enough in our own Parliament. We have learnt a good deal from the Minister today, but the question still has to be asked. In addition, how, in the context of that question, can we ensure that the Pashtuns do not get consistently marginalised in some of the major discussions? That is a regional question.

I conclude with a few quick thoughts, but first by congratulating the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, who gave a tremendous analytical overview. I shall not, noble Lords will be relieved to know, try to repeat the points that she made. She gave us a realistic assessment of the characteristics of regional neighbours, the problems of a time limit of six months to make major steps and the questions about Pakistan’s willingness to create strategic stability. As we withdraw, in an orderly fashion, we must not step ahead of Afghanistan’s real capacities or in ignorance of the current levels of corruption and incompetence. We should accept that it would be wilfully naive to believe that the ANSF has avoided some of the systematic corruption that has appeared in almost all other institutions. This was widely understood at the Chicago conference, even if it is thought disobliging on occasions to mention it.

We need to continue to provide security assistance and work to avoid threatened divisions within the Afghan National Army itself. What can our role be there? We need to put emphasis on good governance and do it on a par with security, encouraging political reform. We should not accept that this should always go to the back burner because of the latest political or military exigency. This also means being very choosy about which of the warlords and power brokers in Afghanistan we cosy up to when we try to judge the consequences. How will we approach that? We should ensure that any negotiations with the Taliban are part of a broader process—the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Bath and Wells was essentially driving at the same point, not least in welcoming the establishment of the office in Doha—and cover all aspects of the rule of law and the rights of women.

We need to try to keep the broader regional discussions inclusive and make sure as far as we can that we influence them to ensure that India is not excluded, that China engages and continues to engage to a greater extent, and that the complexity of the “-stans” is grasped, while ensuring that Iran, rather than having more influence, has as little influence as we can succeed in achieving, including among the Persian-speakers in Afghanistan. In all this, we need to get our tone right. I hope the noble Baroness, Lady Warsi, will take this in the spirit that I intend it, but I always welcome the very measured way in which the Minister deals with these things; there is nothing gushing or rose tinted in enthusiasm about untested capabilities among Afghanistan’s forces or its leaders, the foot soldiers or the operational skills. However, we cannot in other places, particularly in the leadership of the Government, sound as though we are enthusiastic schoolboys, somewhat lacking gravitas as we make a realistic assessment of what is going on. That is not how I believe people will take us seriously.

13:25

[Baroness Warsi]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. It is important that we continue to consider Afghanistan’s long-term future. I start by mentioning Jan and Wodood, the two boys whom my noble friend Lord Bates referred to. I am sure that everybody in this House would wish to acknowledge the comments made by my noble friend and pass our condolences to the families of those two boys and the families of so many, both of our service men and women and of the innocent lives that have been lost over the years of violence in Afghanistan. We owe it to our service men and women and to the innocent civilians to stand and take stock. For me, it was very personal when I sat in the helicopter during one of the transfers down to Lashkar Gah. It was one of the troop movement moments, when you sit there with young men and women kitted out and ready to go into battle and the enormity of what they do on a day-to-day basis hits you. You are there simply to visit and to speak, but they are there to carry on on the front line. Our thoughts should be consistently with them.

The noble Lord, Lord Triesman, raised some very important points. As the Minister who is responsible for Afghanistan, Pakistan and central Asia, I am particularly focused on how the region can play an influencing and shaping role as to the future stability within Afghanistan. The noble Lord, quite rightly, raises challenges. Do we absolutely understand what the climate would look like as we draw down our troops? Are the security services there ready? I can tell him from my own experience of what I have seen that, of course, it is not a perfect service, but more and more we find the Afghan security forces taking over the security of their communities and doing it more and more in a professional way.

Has progress been made on women? It is one of the issues that I constantly bring to the table, whether in trilateral or bilateral discussions, or indeed in discussions with civil society. Too many gains have been made for us to lose them. As women in Afghanistan say to me regularly, there is no way that we can go back to the way things were in 2001. Simple statistics show that it cannot go back to that: 40% of children are in primary school, and a quarter of teachers and a quarter of parliamentarians are now female. As one lady put it to me, in the practical way that women do, “We now have mobile phones, there is no way they can stop us speaking to each other”. Technology has developed in ways that mean, thankfully, that we can never go back to that dark period in Afghanistan’s history. As I have said, too many sacrifices have been made for us to allow these gains to slip.

I absolutely take the point made by my noble friend Lord Bates about truth and honesty. My views on what we intended to achieve when we first went into Afghanistan are on record: I had real concerns about what we could achieve and how that matched up to the rhetoric that, unfortunately, we heard from Governments across the world at that time. It is important, especially because of the sacrifices that we have made, to be honest with the British public about what a future Afghanistan will look like. That is why I consistently ensure that our language is honest, frank and tempered, and not gushing and enthusiastic. It is of course right to praise the progress that has been made in Afghanistan and it is important to do so to allow the Afghan people to build the confidence that they need to be able to deal with the situation as we leave. However, it is also important to be realistic about what has been achieved. There have been real achievements if you go back to 2001, and we can all be sure that Afghanistan is no longer a safe haven for terrorists who can be trained and then attack us on our soil. It is also important for us to say that we can realistically continue this relationship with Afghanistan. There are many countries in the world in which we face challenging circumstances but that does not prevent our having a strong bilateral relationship, including on aid and trade, which allows us to continue to engage in strategic bilateral dialogue as the basis of that.

My noble friend Lord Bates specifically spoke about the ulema conference. The trilateral process is important. Noble Lords have raised the question of whether other people should be part of that trilateral process, but the reason why that process is effective is that we have strong relations with Pakistan and with Afghanistan, many of those based on long and strong historical ties. We have acted as what would be seen as an annoying friend, to make sure that we allowed the right space to be created for them to have these strong bilateral discussions. The ulema conference, which was specifically discussed at the Chequers trilateral earlier this year, has had some difficulties.

Noble Lords may be aware that a member of the Pakistani group that was discussing the ulema conference, Allama Tahir Ashrafi, made some comments that were completely unacceptable and nearly threw things off course. My discussions with Foreign Minister Rassoul last week when I was in Afghanistan—or the week before; I have lost track of the timeframe—and subsequent discussions between the Prime Minister and President Zardari and President Karzai are moving things back in the right direction. If the ulema conference can be achieved, it will be a hugely important moment. That is why the stakes are so high: if a very clear message goes out that the use of violence cannot be justified in Islam, it will take away some of the moral justification that the Taliban sometimes use for their violence.

The noble Lord, Lord Parekh, pointed out that we must do this the Afghan way. Of course we must do this the Afghan way, and that is why the peace and reconciliation process has been Afghan-led. There are some good examples of local decision-making, including the Loya Jirgah, which allows Afghans to make decisions that are consistent with their own cultural heritage. But we must also be prepared to challenge the Afghan way when it leads to decision-making such as that in relation to the age that young girls can be married off. We must also be prepared to challenge some of the ultra-conservative views that are not consistent with the obligations that Afghanistan has signed up to in international agreements.

There has been much discussion of the role of Pakistan. My noble friend Lady Falkner, among others, raised this issue. Let us not forget that during this conflict 2 million refugees have spent time—indeed, many have been born and raised—in Pakistan. When you speak to the Pakistani public or the Afghan public, they will regularly say, “We are brothers. We have so much in common”. The challenge is whether you can translate that into the mindset of the decision-makers. It is important for us to support that people-to-people contact but also to be quite robust about the fact that Pakistan’s future stability and security are absolutely dependent upon Afghanistan’s future stability and security. The two are absolutely interlinked, and noble Lords made important points about how Pakistan itself has suffered the consequences of many of these groups that were initially being used and trained in Afghanistan.

With regard to the role of Saudi support, I can tell my noble friend Lady Falkner that in October 2008 Saudi officials met with visiting Taliban as part of a delegation to Mecca. The Foreign Minister, Prince Saud al-Faisal, reported at the time that future Saudi involvement in peace talks would be conditional on Afghan parties laying down their arms and entering the political mainstream. Of course, there will always be those on the fringe who have a slightly different view but I assure my noble friend that the Saudi Government are playing a positive role.

The noble Lord, Lord Parekh, and my noble friend Lady Falkner also asked whether Pakistan would be an obstacle to reconciliation. As I said, it is clear that stability and security in Afghanistan are in Pakistan’s interests as well. My recent visit to Pakistan was predominantly to discuss the Pakistani elections, which my noble friend referred to, but I also had the opportunity to discuss with at least seven of the main political parties in Pakistan their views on Afghanistan. There has been a shift in Pakistan and it is interesting that there is political consensus on the importance of good relations with Afghanistan; there is also a power consensus. We all know that there are many levers of power in Pakistan, and the Chequers summit was important because we had the army, the ISI and the politicians around the table. When you get that unanimity of commitment, things will be able to move forward in a much more productive way.

A question was raised about the monitoring of the Pakistani elections. We are supporting the EU in its monitoring mission. Where necessary, we are negotiating on its behalf with the Pakistani authorities and providing UK monitors for the team. We have also been discussing with the Commonwealth Secretariat whether the Commonwealth will also send a mission. Pakistan may well go into having a caretaker Government as early as this weekend and it is essential that those elections are free and fair.

The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, asked about Iran and Afghanistan. The UK would like to see Iran living in peace and co-operation with its neighbours. An Iran that chooses co-operation rather than confrontation could play a role in international affairs that would be in line with the culture and history of the region. As neighbours, Afghanistan and Iran share a similar culture, language and history but tragically they also share similar problems, such as drug smuggling and refugee flows, and it is important that they play a constructive role. We recognise the development of the Chabahar port in Iran, which could be important for Afghanistan’s development, but we are also clear that any investment should not contravene the sanctions on Iran.

The noble Earl also raised the issue of SAARC. He will be aware that Afghanistan joined the association in 2007. The UK is not a member of SAARC but an FCO Minister attended the SAARC summit for the first time in October 2011 as a special invitee. SAARC is supporting several of the Heart of Asia confidence-building measures that I mentioned earlier. The UK sees SAARC as an important factor for stability in the region and welcomes its co-ordinated work with other regional bodies on Afghanistan. The UK values the role that SAARC plays in bringing member states together to tackle issues of concern and to share ideas and experience.

I agree with the noble Earl that regional economic integration is a key part of promoting growth and reducing poverty in south Asia. We are already working with the World Bank, the Asian Development Bank and other multilaterals to support the removal of barriers to greater regional trade and investment in south Asia.

The noble Lord, Lord Parekh, raised the issue of India. As I said in my opening remarks, the joint working group is a way of achieving that India, too, plays its role in terms of regional stability.

The noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, also raised the issue of a transit route through Uzbekistan. The UK and Uzbekistan have a shared interest in the stability of Afghanistan and the region. As Afghanistan’s key northern neighbour, Uzbekistan has the potential to play a positive role and we welcome its constructive role, including building a railway to Mazar e-Sharif and supplying much needed electricity to Kabul.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Bath and Wells talked about the importance of this not being just a top-down approach, in both Afghanistan and Pakistan. As I have already mentioned, in Pakistan there is cross-party support and much people-to-people support. The different power levers within Pakistan are also, I hope, all pulling in the right direction. Much work has been done on the ground in Afghanistan in bringing ex-Taliban fighters into the system and having a process of reform and reconciliation for them. He will also agree that it is clear statements from the top that will drive real progress.

The right reverend Prelate spoke about the rights of women. I think I have already made clear that this is something that I am deeply committed to and passionate about. The sacrifices that we have made have to be worth something, including the rights of some of the most vulnerable in Afghanistan—the women. Our work with Afghanistan and Pakistan on the trilateral process is and will continue to remain at the top of our political agenda. Our support will remain as long as both countries welcome it. We are committed to the Istanbul Process and stand ready to offer support to the confidence-building measures, and indeed any other process where we can play a positive role.

This will be a difficult road. Many of us from all sides of the House raised these concerns right at the outset and continue to say that these will not be easy decisions. We must ensure that we maintain the confidence of the Afghan people and make it clear to them that as combat troops withdraw, our relationship will enter a new phase. The way I have put it is that a chapter in the book will close but the book has not come to an end; many chapters in our relationship with Afghanistan are still to come.

The mineral resource, which has been spoken about, is one of the opportunities that will help and support Afghanistan as it enters a new era. Another will be the vibrancy of its people, particularly its youth. I had the privilege of meeting a group called Afghanistan 1400—1400 based on the Persian calendar. Looking beyond the 2014 elections to what Afghanistan could look like, many of these young people were educated overseas and have chosen to return to Afghanistan. We hear much about people leaving Afghanistan but these young people have chosen to return. I can sum it up in the words of one of the young people, who said, “It is our country. We need to fight for it and we need to fight for its progress”. We must ensure that we continue to stand by them.

Motion agreed.

Diocese in Europe Measure

Thursday 14th March 2013 Lords Chamber

Motion to Present for Royal Assent

13:40

Moved by

[The Lord Bishop of Newcastle]

That this House do direct that, in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act 1919, the Diocese in Europe Measure be presented to Her Majesty for the Royal Assent.

[The Lord Bishop of Newcastle]

My Lords, the purpose of this short Measure is twofold: to bring the Diocese in Europe more into the mainstream of the Church of England’s financial arrangements, and to update one important aspect of its synodical governance.

On the first point, on financial systems, the Measure will widen the discretionary powers of the Church Commissioners and the Archbishops’ Council to make grants to the Diocese in Europe. It will enable the diocese to become eligible to receive grants for the same range of purposes as our other dioceses in England. At present, payments can be made only in accordance with the powers conferred on the commissioners by the Diocese in Europe Measure 1980. That provides for the commissioners to pay the costs of the bishops’ ministry and housing. The proposed new power to make payments for the development of the mission of the Diocese in Europe is sufficiently wide to enable the commissioners and the council to respond to evolving needs. The Measure does not seek to specify what level of national support the diocese might receive in the future. If the Measure is passed, the level of any grants to be made to the diocese will be determined as part of the usual wider discussions on the distribution of money available from the Church Commissioners’ funds. The first occasion on which that could happen would be when spending plans for 2014 to 2016 are discussed later this year.

Clause 2 deals with references under Article 8 of the constitution of the General Synod of the Church of England. Article 8 provides that permanent changes to the services of baptism or holy communion or in the ordinal, and certain changes in the Church of England’s relations with other churches, must be referred to the dioceses for approval before they can proceed to final approval by the General Synod. In all English dioceses the reference is made to the diocesan synod. At present, in Europe, references are made to the bishops’ council and standing committee, because when the diocese was established there was no diocesan synod at all. However, the Diocese in Europe now has had its own diocesan synod for a number of years, and therefore it seems very appropriate to amend the legislation to bring the procedure into line with the other dioceses in England. I beg to move.

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

My Lords, there is very little that I can add to what the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Newcastle has said. However, I would like to draw attention very briefly to the evidence given by the current Bishop of Gibraltar in Europe at page 79 of the report. He told us that the diocese has doubled in size since it came into existence in 2008. He meant size not in a geographical sense, because it could not get any bigger than it already is, but in the number of its congregations. So it can be regarded, in many ways, as a success story. It now has, as has been pointed out, a diocesan synod that meets in Cologne, and that makes it possible, therefore, to bring this diocese more into line with the other dioceses of the Church of England. The Ecclesiastical Committee had no difficulty in finding the Measure expedient. I support the Motion.

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, this occasion should not pass us by just on the nod, as it were. This is a moment to pay tribute to the chairman of the Ecclesiastical Committee, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, who has just spoken. He chairs that committee with a certain distinction and cheerfulness which holds everyone together and enables the committee to take a very constructive line towards its deliberations and to be very expeditious in its work.

We should also mention a word of appreciation to all those within the church who put a lot of work into the proposals that have been put before us. I want to make just two observations about their content. First, a tribute is due to the province that we are discussing. I think that it has done some excellent work, and we should put on record that it is recognised by people probably of all faiths that it has done a good job, and I am glad that we are strengthening its position for the future. Secondly, while I wholeheartedly endorse what is before us, one ambiguity should be registered. I am not a lawyer, but I am a little interested by the provision about clergy not advocating support of a political party that is not in good standing and that has specifically been debarred by the church.

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

I think that we will come to that issue when we deal with the other Measure, which follows immediately after this. I did not mean to interrupt, but I think it will come better at that stage.

[The Lord Bishop of Newcastle]

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, and the noble Lord, Lord Judd, for their comments and support of this Motion. I therefore ask the House to approve it.

Motion agreed.

Clergy Discipline (Amendment) Measure

Thursday 14th March 2013 Lords Chamber

Motion to Present for Royal Assent

13:46

Moved by

[The Lord Bishop of Newcastle]

That this House do direct that, in accordance with the Church of England Assembly (Powers) Act 1919, the Clergy Discipline (Amendment) Measure be presented to Her Majesty for the Royal Assent.

[The Lord Bishop of Newcastle]

My Lords, disciplinary proceedings for misconduct by Church of England clergy are governed by the Clergy Discipline Measure 2003, which has been in force since l January 2006. The 2003 Measure enables diocesan bishops to deal with formal complaints against the clergy. Where appropriate, and subject to the procedures provided in the Clergy Discipline Measure, the bishop can impose penalties on a cleric who has committed misconduct. That can include, in the most serious of cases, removal from office and prohibition from ministry. For the few cases that cannot be resolved by the bishop, the 2003 Measure has established a modern tribunal system that is compliant with human rights legislation.

This Clergy Discipline (Amendment) Measure amends the 2003 Measure in four main respects. First, the amending Measure in Section 1 will provide an exception to the principle that no proceedings for unbecoming conduct can be taken in respect of the lawful political opinions or activities of Church of England clergy. The new exception relates to racial equality, because under this amending Measure it will be misconduct for Church of England clergy to be members of or actively support a party or other organisation that has been declared to be incompatible with the teachings of the church in relation to racial equality. Because the bishops are the guardians of the doctrine of the church, it will be the House of Bishops that will decide which organisations are incompatible with the church’s teachings. However, any declaration would not come into force if the General Synod disagreed with the declaration.

Although this provision will affect the rights of clergy under the European Convention on Human Rights, especially in relation to Articles 10 and 11—on freedom of expression and freedom of association—it will do so only in a way that is compatible with the convention and solely with regard to the fundamental area of racial equality. The church itself has rights under the convention, in particular under Article 9—on freedom of thought, conscience and religion—and is entitled to ensure that its clergy adhere to its teachings, and to discipline those that do not.

The second main area of reform is in respect of appeals from the findings of disciplinary tribunals. Under the 2003 Measure, there is an absolute right of appeal to an appellate court, and pending any appeal a stay is imposed on the implementation of the penalty. This means that a priest who has no prospect of success can launch an appeal against a finding of misconduct, hold on to office meanwhile, and frustrate and delay the final resolution of the complaint, which is unjust for the complainant, for the parish concerned and for the wider church. Clause 3 of the amending Measure will require a prospective appellant to obtain leave to appeal before making the appeal. That will not remove the cleric’s right to appeal; it merely puts in place a kind of sieve procedure so that hopeless appeals are stopped and dealt with swiftly and fairly. The church, in introducing this amendment, is taking account of the practice in secular courts where leave to appeal is usually required before an appeal can be pursued.

The third main area where the amending Measure makes change is with regard to the powers of the bishop. At the moment, a bishop can remove from office and prohibit from ministry without further proceedings a priest or deacon who has been convicted of a criminal offence if a prison sentence has been imposed by the criminal court. But there have been cases where a serious crime has been committed and the priest has been given a non-custodial sentence and, in those circumstances, the bishop currently has no power to act unless and until a formal complaint is made, and then only if the priest consents to the penalty imposed by the bishop. The amending Measure will enable a bishop to remove from office and prohibit from ministry a cleric who is convicted of certain criminal offences regardless of whether a prison sentence has been imposed. The amending Measure will also enable the bishop to remove from office a cleric who has been adjudged by the Disclosure and Barring Service to be a risk to children or vulnerable adults and who has accordingly been entered on either of the barred lists under the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006. This is surely a desirable improvement.

In addition to these three important areas of reform, the amending Measure makes a number of modest amendments to the 2003 Measure which are essentially of a technical nature. For example, paragraph 5 of the schedule makes amendments with regard to the appointment of members of a disciplinary tribunal and of the two provincial appellate courts.

I hope that this necessarily brief outline of the amending Measure will show that, beneath the rather technical complexity of it all, it will improve the church’s disciplinary procedures, which are indeed already regarded as working well. The Measure rightly received overwhelming support in the General Synod—212 votes in favour, with just two votes against and one recorded abstention—and I commend it to the House.

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

Again, my Lords, there is very little that I wish to add to what the right reverend Prelate has said, although there is of course more meat in this Measure than in the other. Its purpose is to amend the existing Measure of 2003. I draw attention in this case to the care with which these Measures have been prepared by the legislative committee of the Synod and presented to the Ecclesiastical Committee of Parliament. That was especially so in this case, where the comments and explanations submitted to the Ecclesiastical Committee extend from page 15 to page 35 of its report on the Measure and are exceptionally thorough. I suspect that the committee and the House generally should be very grateful to the legislative committee for taking so much trouble.

As the right reverend Prelate has pointed out, the Measure deals with four areas which are set out on page 15 of the report. Of these, the one which was potentially the most controversial was Clause 1, which has already been touched on by the noble Lord, Lord Judd, relating to misconduct. There were a number of questions on that, at page 83 of the report, starting with a question from Sir Peter Bottomley—question 10—and then a question from the noble Lord, Lord Judd, and finally a question from the noble Lord, Lord Laming. I hope that the noble Lord will agree that all those questions were adequately answered by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Guildford.

The other area of importance was the abolition of the automatic right of appeal; now there needs to be leave to appeal which would come before a court of two. That question was dealt with by Charles George QC, the Dean of the Arches, who made the interesting point that the number of appeals has been extremely small; but he also said that, if minded to refuse leave to appeal, he would always give reasons. Once again, the Ecclesiastical Committee had little difficulty in finding this Measure expedient, so I support the Motion.

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, I apologise to the House for having jumped the gun. I talked about the expeditious way in which our chairman of the Ecclesiastical Committee had enabled us to get through the business very effectively, and perhaps I was hoping that we could expedite the discussion here—but the House, I hope, will forgive me for having jumped the gun on this Measure.

I support strongly what the noble and learned Lord has just said. The Measure was extremely well put forward. The witnesses from the church who appeared before us were extremely helpful and the right reverend Prelate has in his masterful way put very clearly to us the essence of what it is all about.

I think that the House will find it reassuring that some things are being tightened up, and that applies particularly to some of the social issues which preoccupy us a great deal today regarding child abuse and the rest. I am sure that we welcome the stronger provisions which will now be in place.

In the operation of the law, I always hope that there will be a certain amount of space for interpretation, because I do not see the law as being absolutely rigid. Very firm principles are established in the law and the job of those responsible for administering it is to take those principles extremely seriously and apply them, but there is always room for judgment.

One thing about which the church is deeply concerned is racism. The provision to which I am referring makes particular reference to this. It is clear that the church does not wish anyone speaking in its name to endorse the existence of a political party which is regarded by the church as incompatible in its manifesto and policies with its teachings. The provision goes into the very difficult area of distinguishing between what a party stands for, and what its policies and manifesto are, and any particular policy that may come from that background with which it might be quite possible in isolation, taken away from that party’s expression of it, to be strongly in favour. The provision tries to deal with whether a clergy man or woman who was speaking in favour of a policy—it might be to do with housing, for example—would be allowed to speak about their attitude towards that particular proposal as long as they were not endorsing the party.

I am not a lawyer, but it strikes me that there is a good deal of ambiguity about that. I do not see how you can have an absolute dividing line. If a political party was getting a great deal of publicity for a particular aspect of its policy and a clergy person was then, understandably, to say, “This policy is absolutely in line with Christian teaching and something that we should take very seriously”, that will be interpreted by an awful lot of people as an endorsement of the political party. I do not for a moment suggest that we need to sort that out further at this stage, but it is important to draw attention to the fact that there will be ambiguity there which will need a great deal of firm interpretation by the church. I see the possibility of disturbing events in future.

14:00

[The Lord Bishop of Newcastle]

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, and the noble Lord, Lord Judd, for their comments. I pick up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Judd, that the amended Measure declares that it will be misconduct for Church of England clergy to be members of or actively to support a party or other organisation which has been declared to be incompatible with the teachings of the Church of England in relation to racial equality.

As the noble Lord, Lord Judd, said, and as I acknowledge, this is a new area for bishops, especially, to go into, because it is the bishops who will bear responsibility, along with the members of the General Synod. There may be the areas of ambiguity that the noble Lord, Lord Judd, outlined, but I hope, nevertheless, that the Measure will gain the support of the House, because it is clearly incompatible with the teachings of the Church of England—let us remember that clergy are public officers of the Church of England—for clergy to be members of or actively to support racist parties in this country. That is what is behind that part of the amended Measure.

[Lord Judd]

I am very grateful to the right reverend Prelate for giving way, but my point was slightly different. My point is that the Measure concentrates on membership and direct support for a party. I suggest that there might be circumstances in which the clergy person concerned was neither a member nor, hopefully, a supporter, but that things they were saying about a particular policy could be interpreted as support for the party. I just say that that is an area of ambiguity which I think will need a great deal of care in future—firm care, if that is not a contradiction in terms.

[The Lord Bishop of Newcastle]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Judd; I accept that point.

With that, I commend the amended Measure to the House and ask it to support and approve the Motion.

Motion agreed.

United Kingdom: Future Demographic Trends

Thursday 14th March 2013 Lords Chamber

Question for Short Debate

14:04

Asked by

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact on the United Kingdom of future demographic trends.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on taking two debates on the trot and, through her, I thank her officials very much for having taken the trouble to ring me to ask what issues I wanted to raise with her today.

Initiating a debate on population is to enter a minefield which all too easily deteriorates into an unattractive combination of finger-wagging preaching on the one hand and the denial of any challenges on the other. However, opinion research indicates that demographic trends are of great concern to the citizens of this country and, indeed, to the citizens of the world.

Perhaps I should begin by saying what this debate is not about. It is not a debate about immigration under another name; it is not a debate about relative population sizes and whether there are more white people or black people; it is not about the relative sizes of faiths and whether there are more Christians, Jews or Muslims; it is not about the relative sizes of social classes and whether there are more rich people or poor people; and, finally, it is not about preaching or personal example, because I need to put on record straight away that I have four children. It is about the staggering absolute increase in the world and UK population hour by hour and what that may mean for us, for our children and for our grandchildren. It is the elephant in the room of all our efforts, first, to relieve abject poverty; secondly, to offer people a decent standard of living; thirdly, to provide everybody with a reasonable chance of self-realisation and fulfilling their talents, dreams and aspirations; and, lastly, but not least, to avoid a possible final degradation of our world.

Today, in the more reflective atmosphere of your Lordships’ House, I hope we can discuss the extent of those demographic challenges and what if anything can be done about them. It has proved to be an issue that has been hard to raise in the past, in part because it is an extremely sensitive and personal matter, in part because past political efforts have exploded in the face of individuals—Keith Joseph’s political career was effectively ended by a single speech in Birmingham—and in part because of certain false alarms, such as that of Thomas Malthus and, more recently, Paul Ehrlich’s 1968 book, The Population Bomb.

What is the position now? The annual growth in the world’s population is about 1.1% per annum. That may seem a pretty small percentage, but in absolute terms it means that the world population is increasing by more than 70 million a year. That is more than 200,000 every day of the year. In the hour and a half that this debate is supposed to last, the world’s population will have increased by 13,000 people. “But”, I hear people ask, “is this rate not projected to slow down?”. Yes, it is a bit. Median projections suggest that by 2050 the world’s population will be increasing by only 40 million per annum, or 7,000 more people during a debate of this length.

Whatever the increase, whether it is 70 million or 40 million, I invite the House to consider what that will mean for the need for housing, health, education, employment and resource use. Either way, the world’s population is projected to increase from 7 billion today to 9.2 billion in 2050. Thomas Malthus was worried about food shortage. He overlooked an equally important precious resource: water. The UN’s best estimates are that the planet can provide water for a maximum of 9.5 billion people so, by 2050, we shall be at that limit. That figure is based on the assumption that the people are where the water is—probably a false assumption. We need to remember that all projections about population have an error range; 9.2 billion is the median. The top of the range is 11 billion. What about water then?

After that litany of despair, what can be done? First, we must avoid seeing it as someone else’s problem. Desperate people do desperate things. We may think that times are tough here in the United Kingdom at present, but for a starving man with a starving family in an unstable country, this is El Dorado, and desperate people will find ways to get here. Efforts to provide a degree of stability and prosperity—a prosperity modest by our standards—are critical. I hope that the Government’s overseas aid budget will continue to target those failed or failing states. The single most important step to help slow the population explosion is to ensure that every woman has control over her own fertility. For a whole host of personal reasons, most women seek to limit the number of children they have. It would be helpful if, when my noble friend replies, she can reaffirm the UK’s commitment to provide contraceptive advice and guidance and tell the House what progress has been made and what the targets are for the next few years.

That brings me to a difficult issue, about which I have given my noble friend’s office advance warning. After this debate appeared on the Order Paper, I was made aware of a group of Catholics calling themselves Catholics for Choice—I am not a Catholic, by the way—who wanted to raise the position of the Vatican at the United Nations. In short, they ask, “Is it a religion or is it a state?” They point out that no other religion has a comparable position in world affairs, and if it is a state, the briefing they have sent me points out that it is an unusual one. It has only 594 residents, all of whom are citizens of other countries. Of those 594, only 100 are women and it is estimated that there are no more than 10 children in residence at any given time.

The briefing that the group sent me went on to outline how the Vatican switches between these roles. Thus, at last week’s Women’s Conference at the UN in New York, the Catholic Church claimed observer status because it was a religion but reserved the right to participate in UN discussions because it was a state under the title of the Holy See. Given the Catholic Church’s deep-seated hostility to giving women control over their fertility, this issue is not going to go away, and I look forward to hearing the Government’s views on it.

In the rest of my remarks, I want to turn to the no less challenging position of the United Kingdom. The population of the UK is now over 63 million people. The 2011 census revealed that in the 10-year period 2001-11, the population of England and Wales increased by 3.7 million people, an increase of 7.1%, which is the fastest rate of growth since the first census in 1801. The ONS mid-range projections suggest that the UK’s population will continue to increase and will reach 70 million by 2027—another 7 million people. What do 7 million people look like? The city of Manchester has 500,000 people in it, so think of 14 Manchesters. If you want to take the larger Manchester conurbation, including Bolton, Bury, Manchester, Oldham, Rochdale, Salford, Stockport, Tameside, Trafford and Wigan, which together have a population of more than 2 million, then think of three of these. Maybe we are going to have to build three Greater Manchesters by 2027.

There is a further complication. It is not just that England is already the sixth most densely populated country in the world—after Bangladesh, Taiwan, South Korea, Lebanon and Rwanda—but that the population is not spread evenly across the country. The bulk of the population increase will surely take place in the south-east, where we will probably have to build two out of those three Greater Manchesters

What is to be done? “Stop immigration” is a popular cry. That would make some difference but perhaps not as much as one might think. The Migration Observatory at Oxford University has pointed out that with 100,000 migrants per annum—the Government’s target—the population would reach 70 million in 2035, but with zero migration it would be 66 million—a difference of 4 million. On the other hand, those who say, “Unless we have more young people we cannot afford to look after our existing old people”, have forgotten the implications of compound interest. We would be engaging in, to quote Sir David Attenborough, a gigantic population Ponzi scheme. We have to recognise that at some point we have to achieve a stable, balanced population of this country. There will be considerable strains during the transition phase, but at some point someone somewhere must be brave enough to state this fact and to withstand the misinterpretation, misconstruction, misreporting and misquotation that will surely follow. To inform the general public in a balanced, unsensational way, we need an authoritative body to undertake the necessary research and writing. Population affects every government department—think of the impact of building three Greater Manchesters on every aspect of government—yet population is the responsibility of none. A useful first step in analysing this exceptionally complex problem could be to create a new Minister, or add to the duties of an existing interdepartmental one, to take responsibility for this issue.

To conclude, whatever one’s views of this issue, surely we must all agree with Sir John Sulston, who is leading a study of global population for the Royal Society, when he said that the target should not be to cram as many people as possible on to the planet. He went on to say:

“We have to look at what will allow humankind to flourish. We want to aim for a high quality of life and not just to scrape along”.

Future generations deserve no less.

14:14

[Lord Parekh]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, for securing and introducing this debate. During the 13-odd years that I have been in your Lordships’ House, this is the second time that I have spoken in two debates in a row, and the first time that these two debates have been within 20 minutes of each other. If today’s experience is any guide, I would not want to repeat it and I would not commend it with much enthusiasm to anyone in the House.

We are talking about the impact of demographic trends. Within the UK, the population as of 2010 is 62.3 million, expected to rise to 67.2 million in 2020 and 73.2 by 2035. These predictions cannot always be relied upon, but by and large there is reason to believe that the margin of error will not be very large. It is also expected that the median age will rise from 39.7 today to 39.9 in 2020 and 42.2 in 2035. Today people over 75 constitute 4.9% of the population; by 2035 that is likely to rise to 8.9%, almost double. Those who are 85 or over constitute 1.4% of the population, and that is likely to rise to 3.5% by 2035. The working age of 30 to 60 years is also likely to rise, but rather slowly, from 24.8 currently to 26.7 in 2035.

These figures make sense only if seen in a comparative context. The picture in France is roughly the same. The population today is 64.7 million, likely to rise to 67.8 million in 2020 and 71.3 million by 2035, an increase of 10%. In Italy, again, there is a likely increase between now and 2035 of 8%. The only major country—other than Poland, Lithuania and others—that is a striking exception is Germany, where the population is likely to fall by 6% between now and 2035. The current population is 81.7 million, likely to fall to 80.1 million in 2020 and then 76.3 million by 2035.

As the population rises, that has an impact in terms of who is falling and who is rising. The number of Christians, for example, declined between 2001 and 2011 by 13%. The number of those with no religious affiliations increased by 10% during the same 10-year period and there is reason to believe, so the experts tell us, that the same trend is likely to continue, so that by 2035 the number of Christians will have fallen dramatically and those with no affiliation will have risen.

The percentage of Muslims and ethnic minority children is likely to rise, partly through immigration and partly because of fertility and an increase in the number of children. It is also expected that there will be an increase in qualifications at level 4 and above, so more and more of our people are going to acquire higher qualifications. Rather surprisingly, the report says that childlessness is on the increase, and the number of children per family is falling. However, it is falling unevenly: in white communities, the size of the family is much smaller—1.5 or 1.6 children, sometimes even less—while among the ethnic minorities the families are larger, and their population is therefore likely to rise faster than that of the rest of society.

So far, we have relied on migration to provide skills that we have lacked. Increasingly, it is expected that by 2035 the sources of migration will dry up. Indians will have no reason to come here; in fact, more and more of our people will want to go to India, China, Pakistan or elsewhere. If some migrants are available, more European countries will be competing for them, and our share is likely to fall because we might be less attractive than other countries. These are the broad trends over the next 30 years, so what are the likely consequences?

I shall concentrate on three or four that follow directly from what I have said and are not cultural factors that might be contingent and may not happen. It is striking that the percentage of south Asian doctors is rising. Currently it is about 23%, and it is likely to rise to 35% by 2020. By 2035, the proportion of south Asian doctors may be 46% to 48%; every second doctor will be of south Asian origin. By and large, they will be working not as GPs but in hospitals, and many of them will be women. Here I rely on evidence given to me by two distinguished doctors, Dr Ashtok Pathak and Dr Karam Marwah, a consultant and a GP, who have access to some interesting details.

As the population gets older, medical care will be costly. It is said that those over 75 demand more than twice the amount of medical services and money than those between 35 and 44. More chronic illnesses and expensive drugs will have to be taken care of.

In the next three decades, because of family breakdown, growing loneliness, chronic aliments, weak family structures and less familial and social care, there is likely to be an increase in mental health problems, far more than we have seen in our hospitals, which will have to be taken care of. At a slightly different level, the entire NHS structure will have to be looked at very carefully because the distinction between hospitals and GPs cannot be continued in the way it is. Local hospitals will have to go. Instead, we are going to have distant specialist hospitals and more care will be provided at home and in the community.

As the population gets older, politics will change. Voting patterns will change. One never knows how they will change. It depends on the state of the world by 2035, but voting patterns will change, as will the issues that matter to people. For those between 30 and 45 or 50, certain issues matter far more to them than to the elderly population. As the number of people over 75 increases, the issues that matter to them will be different and they will dominate our cultural and political life, and political parties, including my own, will need to take notice of that.

One of the important impacts will be a profound change in national identity. If, according to projected figures for 2025 and 2035, there will be more ethnic minorities, more Muslims, more elderly people, more women and more south Asians and others in visible positions of power, what it means to be British will have to be defined very differently.

14:23

[Baroness Greengross]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, on initiating this debate. I listened with much interest also to the noble Lord, Lord Parekh. Looking across the world, demographic change is increasingly a reality. I declare an interest as head of the International Longevity Centre in the UK and co-president of the family of ILCs across the world—there are 14, soon to be 16, of them. I am extremely privileged to have some insight into the trends that demographic changes are bringing everywhere.

Along with everyone, I want to be able to celebrate this demographic change. It is wonderful. We can all expect to grow old, which is a new phenomenon. It has never happened before in the history of mankind. Longevity is a good thing, provided we adapt to it and change our institutions and services accordingly to meet the challenge.

I have just come back from Japan where I was working for a few days. Recently, when I was privileged to chair one of the Ditchely Park conferences, a statistician reported that statistically, actuarially, even if not realistically, it is possible to calculate when the last Japanese man or woman will live in Japan. This is because Japan has not encouraged immigration and the population is static. The Japanese have very few children, and its population is ageing more rapidly than that of any other country of the world. There is a huge warning there that we need to balance our population ageing so that we can reap its benefits and plan for the huge challenges that ageing brings with it.

Recent medical advances have been so successful that we have conquered or controlled many of the serious illnesses that used to kill people. People can go on living for a long time with chronic conditions, and therefore we have the enormous challenge of dealing with the different types of dementia in all countries. Dementia is a huge challenge. This morning, I was at the dementia village at the innovations conference at ExCeL, which is looking in a novel way at innovations that enable us to live a quality of life with the different forms of dementia. That is a wonderful innovation because this is perhaps the greatest challenge that we all face. We know that one in three of us who reach old age—85 or over—will have some form of dementia, and we must prepare for that by bringing the correct services across the board to serve people who have dementia.

We have to look more widely if, across the world, we are to look positively at the ageing of the population: productive ageing. That does not mean that everybody has to be in the workplace, but it means looking at what older people bring to society. We know that various political parties in this country and in other advanced economies could not survive without the older volunteers who maintain them, particularly before elections. We know that in Africa without the older population many more children would grow up without any adult care, supervision or help because of the ravages of AIDS. We know that in many countries, you still do not talk about a retirement age but go on working until you die because there is no such thing as retirement and an awful lot of people depend on your activity for their livelihood. Whatever age you are, you depend on the older population for much of your welfare and productivity.

Ageing is not a disaster, it is a triumph, but in this country and elsewhere we have to adapt very fast if we are to keep up with the change. That means looking across the board, as the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, insisted. For example, we have not designed our built environment, our housing and our homes adequately for an ageing population. Transport has not come to terms with the fact that the travelling public will rapidly become much older than they are now. On education, with adequate IT or television, perhaps in your own home or in the village community centre, you can watch a lecture given by the leading professor of whatever subject you are studying. Why do we retain absolute age identities when we are learning? Why cannot a 14 year-old and a 64 year-old learn a language or history together? Why do we segregate people ruthlessly according to their age? It is of another era.

We should look again at our education, as we look at employment. We must bring the skills and experience of older people into the workforce along with the innovatory ideas and new approaches of the young. We must encourage multi-generational working and all forms of education. We must realise that older people can learn, retrain and adapt as our retirement ages increase, and can continue to work much later in life. We must design our buildings and places of work accordingly. There must be much more flexible working and cleverly designed buildings and methods of working to cope with the ageing of the population.

There is an ethical imperative to address the ageing issue correctly and to work so that, in all industrialised countries, we sort out the imperatives of adequate pensions and benefits. We realise that the ageing of society is changing everything.

Today, the excellent report from the committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Filkin, is published. It looks at some of the challenges posed by an ageing population in this country. We know that, as yet, we do not have the cohesive approach to ageing that we need. Governments still work in silos. We still do not bring the different systems together. I hope that the draft Care and Support Bill—for which I have been pleased to work on the pre-legislative scrutiny—will help if we have government support to bring things together so that we are not separating healthcare, social care and housing in the way that has happened up until now. It is only with a co-ordinated approach, difficult as it is with the legal responsibilities of different departments, that we can tackle that. If we do not, we will not meet the challenge of an ageing population. We have the opportunity to do it now, and we can.

With the best will in the world, the Government are now making encouraging efforts to co-ordinate care under the banner of well-being and outcomes. Other Governments across Europe and beyond are doing the same thing. It is a marvellous moment for us to celebrate the ageing of the population. If all countries together get this right, we can celebrate and be delighted that we can all hope to live to a great age.

14:34

[Lord Liddle]

I rise in the gap to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, on introducing the Motion for debate. I will briefly make a general point and a specific point about the United Kingdom.

The general point is that we should be careful of joining in any chorus of Malthusian despair. Malthus was wrong 200 years ago and is still wrong today. My specific point about the UK is that there is a serious problem with the demographic balance of our population. As the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, has said, we should welcome longevity. However, it will impose a huge cost on our society. Some estimates are that the cost is as great in terms of its fiscal weight as the cost of the fiscal consolidation that we are currently undergoing, if you take into account the impact on pensions, health and social care.

That public spending cost will, if we are not careful, eat into our nation’s capacity to tackle the other big problems we face: global competition, where we have to invest in education, innovation and skills; climate change, which requires a huge programme of infrastructure investment and change; and inequality, in order to raise the life chances of children being brought up in disadvantaged circumstances. If we do not tackle the fiscal problem of ageing, we will find that other problems are very difficult to tackle.

We need in Britain a new inter-generational compact between grandparents and their grandchildren. This is extremely difficult for the political parties to achieve in terms of the normal discourse of political debate. We must try to find a new cross-party consensus about how we cope with the public spending challenges of the ageing society. The report from the committee of the noble Lord, Lord Filkin, which has been published today, on which I hope we will have a much longer and more thorough debate in future, is of great significance. This is a real challenge for whoever forms the next Government of Britain. There is a role for the House of Lords as a body which can bring together different political points of view and try to establish a much-needed consensus on this fundamental challenge.

14:37

[Lord Hunt of Chesterton]

My Lords, I should also like to speak in the gap, having given notice. This is an important debate and we should thank the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, for one of the few debates that really addresses the future of the United Kingdom. That certainly happens occasionally.

My point is about technology and electronic contributions, on which the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, touched. They are extraordinarily important for enabling elderly people whose capacities may begin to decline to understand and to assist them with health, communication, transportation, learning and so on. I have seen examples where this works brilliantly. A friend recently died and, if there had been the information and communication, that need not have happened.

As has just been said, this now provides a technological and industrial opportunity. This interesting report refers to the financial aspect. There is a lot of money in the elderly sector of society. If people could be encouraged to invest in the new methods and technologies and not just in housing, that would provide a boost to our technology and industry. We go from the industrial revolution to the gerontological revolution. Harold Wilson talked about the “white heat of technology”; we will have the white hair of the new technological revolution.

Annexe 17 of the report has an interesting point on the role of the royal college providing completely new designs and ideas. It will be an extraordinary opportunity for quite new ideas and for business. That rather positive note is something that we should think about.

14:39

[Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town]

My Lords, I join others in thanking the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, for securing this debate. Although he concentrated on population size, I note that this debate is taking place on the very day of the publication of the Filkin report, Ready for Ageing?, which is very apt. I will concentrate more on that. I also congratulate him because it is less than 24 hours since we heard that a 76 year-old was to take up perhaps the most demanding international job in the world. In congratulating Pope Francis, let us hope that he also serves to remind us that 76 is the new 35.

I also very much take up the point of the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, that we should celebrate this. As she spoke, of course, my noble friend Lord Healey was in his place, the oldest Member of your Lordships’ House. He is not now in his place—I have to confess that he is my hero—but what a wonderful reminder he is of what ageing does.

I take the opportunity to congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Filkin, and the members of his committee, as well as Professor Howard Glennerster and Jonathan Portes, who advised them. They have produced much food for thought and undertaken much of the work necessary for what I hope will be a cross-party response to the tasks ahead.

The report notes that we are “woefully underprepared” for the social and economic challenges presented by an ageing society. However, the report begins by drawing a route map. I will not try to better its assessment, but will simply emphasise a few points. First, of course, this issue requires not simply cross-party consensus but a cross-generational consensus. That means listening to the young and listening to the old, and involving them all in the development of new policies and provision. We should not be doing things for or on behalf of the ageing, but with and alongside them.

The issue of fairness between generations is key, as is the issue of responding to disparity between classes. It is an old story that, as one takes the Jubilee Line eastwards from Westminster station, life expectancy drops a year as each station passes. We have to be careful, therefore, not to rank people simply by their numerical age, given that needs, whether for social or medical care, fall for almost everyone in the last six months of their life, virtually regardless of their age of death. We must not allow inequalities present during working lives to continue into pensioner poverty. We need to consider the needs of those who will die younger than average, just as much as the needs of those who will head towards their century.

We also need a range of responses, encouraging self-help via healthy lifestyles, savings, investment and insurance, as well as delivering socially the responses we need. As was mentioned, that includes building more homes, social and medical care, and other support systems. With regard to self-help, we need to encourage insurance and investment, but this means rebuilding trust in the industry, as mentioned in the Filkin report. The Government rejected amendments that we tabled both to the Financial Services Bill and to the Enterprise and Regulatory Reform Bill to require those who hold and manage money on behalf of others to have a fiduciary duty towards those investors or beneficiaries. Until that is law, people will be reluctant to take on complicated financial products through lack of confidence. The Government also defeated our attempt to require the financial industry to adopt a code of conduct. We hope they will think again about this.

The situation is much the same with letting, managing and estate agents, who might have an important role in helping older people downsize or move. However, without robust regulation of these, we risk another era of mis-selling or of poor service to this group. Only last week the Government resisted my amendments on requiring an ombudsman for some of these agents, although I am pleased to say that they were defeated. Will the Minister indicate whether they are now willing to accept that requirement? It would be an important safeguard if older people are to downsize and to be able to move to more suitable accommodation.

I will turn to another aspect of self-help: keeping healthy and fit. We know that good diet, exercise and keeping to moderate drinking is part of this. Will the Government explain, which they did not quite do this morning, why, when every medical body considers that minimum unit pricing for alcohol is key to reducing harmful consumption, they are going to listen to the drinks industry instead and bow to its demands to be allowed to peddle cheap booze?

When I hear the drinks industry claim that it is concerned with the older and the poor who have fewer pounds in their pocket, I simply rage. Older people are very vulnerable to alcohol misuse, especially if they are coping with loneliness, depression or bereavement. To pretend it helps them by giving them access to cheap units of alcohol is irresponsible in the extreme. Therefore, in the development of policies to assist our ageing population, can the Minister assure us that the health and well-being of the nation will be put ahead of the industries’ interests, be that the banking industry or the brewers?

This is not just a matter for the individuals concerned. Society and the Government have a key role to play. Charities want to help but are facing severe financial constraints and find already that the demands on them now, let alone in the future, are more than they can respond to. Reverting to the alcohol issue, Alcohol Concern has lost all its government funding, undermining its initiatives on older people’s drinking, among other problems. Will the Government outline what will be done to assist all the relevant charities in the coming years?

We need more homes, with homelessness having increased by 11% between 2010 and 2011. Perhaps we could hear what plans the Government have to increase the housing stock, and particularly the stock appropriate for an older population.

This Sunday marks the 50th anniversary of the death of William Beveridge. It is interesting to ask what he would say to us today of these challenges. He would probably suggest that, for the development of a good society, we need a national debate, including women, and all Britons, but perhaps especially the black and ethnic minority groups, and also that we need more devolution. He would probably suggest that we reinvigorate community development, especially given the decline of religious activity, the more varied family formations and the increase in family break-up. He would probably urge us to think about better use of land and transfer of ownership to make better use of it for the changing population. However, I am sure that he would also talk about consistency in programme development. We cannot keep reforming and hope that anything of value will ensue.

The answer to the Question that the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, raised today is, according to the Filkin report:

“The Cabinet has not assessed the implications of an ageing society holistically, and has left it to Departments … The Government have not looked at ageing from the point of view of the public nor considered how policies may need to change to equip people better to address longer lives”.

Let us hope that the Government will take this to heart and will now begin to work with this rather different viewfinder.

14:48

[The Senior Minister of State, Department for Communities and Local Government & Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Baroness Warsi)]

My Lords, this has been an interesting and challenging debate on an important subject. I am, therefore, grateful to my noble friend Lord Hodgson for raising this important and fascinating subject.

My noble friend Lord Hodgson started off by talking about what this debate was not about. He said that it was not about race, religion or immigration. That probably confirms why I should not be answering this debate, but I will try. He also suggested that there should potentially be a new departmental Minister with responsibilities for all of these issues. I hope to answer this debate well, but not well enough to be given that particular responsibility. When the noble Baroness, Lady Hayter, raised all the issues that I could potentially answer from this Dispatch Box, on homelessness, charities, minimum alcohol pricing and welfare, it reaffirmed how wide the debate could be. I think she will forgive me for saying that I probably cannot answer most of the questions that she has raised, but certainly officials have noted all the questions, and I shall make sure that she gets full replies. I follow the lead of my noble friend Lord Hodgson in declaring an interest; my husband and I have five children between us.

The ramifications of changing populations are widespread and significant. They affect all countries in the developed and developing world, and the issues and opportunities which arise from this debate impact on the work of all government departments. Only today, the House of Lords Committee on Public Service and Demographic Change has published an important report on an ageing society. The noble Baroness has already referred to it. The committee discusses the preparations needed, for example, in health and social care and in pensions and savings, and makes important points on attitudes to ageing. We will consider the points made in this report carefully and reflect them in the full range of government policies and programmes.

Speaking personally, I believe that demographic issues and the interrelationship with economic growth and development possibly in some way underlie many of the topics which arise in my FCO portfolio, as well as in my faith and communities portfolio in the Department for Communities and Local Government. I will try to reflect the breadth of comments and issues raised in the short time that I have available.

We know that the UN estimates that the global population is already more than 7 billion, and that this will continue to rise. The medium estimate is that global population will exceed 9 billion by 2050, and 10 billion by 2100. Most of the global population growth will take place in sub-Saharan Africa, and we know that there are already pressures on the availability of water in those areas. In these hotspots, population issues can place great strains on government systems, particularly in the absence of strong economic growth.

There is also an issue about the management of water in these places, which means an improvement is needed in infrastructure and governance. This Government are helping these places around the world, not just because it is the right thing to do but because it is the smart thing to do. Helping these countries helps Britain; investing in them now, before they become unstable, means that we can avoid spending more money on dealing with future problems such as immigration or threats to national security. By 2015, our funding will secure schooling for more people abroad than we educate in the UK, at one-fortieth of the cost. We are not investing this money irresponsibly; we are acutely aware of the duty we have to the taxpayer. This Government have introduced the UK aid transparency guarantee, so people around the world can see exactly what DfID’s spending is going on. I assure my noble friend Lord Hodgson that our commitment to international development will continue.

On family planning, this Government are going to great lengths to help women in other parts of the world take control over their fertility. At the London family planning summit in July 2012, we achieved an extraordinary global breakthrough by the international community pledging to give access to family planning for 120 million women in the world’s poorest countries. We do not want to stop there. Our vision is of a developing world where all women have choice over the size and timing of their families, where no woman dies giving birth, and where all newborn babies survive and thrive. But I want to be absolutely clear: we are talking about voluntary family planning; there is no justification for coercion.

Between now and 2020, we will provide an additional 24 million girls and women with family planning services to prevent the deaths of girls and women for whom an unintended pregnancy carries the risk of fatal consequences. For the next eight years, British support will save the life of a woman in the developing world every two hours, as well as preventing more than 20 million unintended pregnancies, equivalent to one every 10 seconds. My noble friend Lord Hodgson raised the views of the Holy See; we have different views from the Holy See, which has official observer status at the UN. It makes its position on contraception very clear, and we make ours very clear, as do other UN member states. At UN discussions in New York, we are clear that women’s control over their fertility is a cornerstone of development. We know that fertility tends to decline as development expands, and development has often been described as the best form of contraception.

On the impact on the UK, we know that the UK population is already more than 63 million, and current estimates predict it to increase to more than 67 million in the next decade or so. The south-east of the country already has the largest population of any English region, at almost 9 million people. Part of this rise is driven by employment, jobs and growth. This Government have already started trying to rebalance growth across the country. We have developed enterprise zones, local enterprise partnerships and a regional growth fund to do just this, and we are backing these mechanisms with money. The regional growth fund has allocated £2.4 billion to more than 360 projects and programmes already, and last October we announced £25 million of funding for LEPs to bolster core capacity funding. The 24 enterprise zones have already secured around £160 million in private investment and created 1,700 jobs, and this Government are continuing to work with them to fully realise their potential by 2015. This Government are committed to allowing every area the opportunity for growth, which is why these initiatives are not only focused on deprived areas. We are helping local areas to use the tools and funding we have devolved to meet local needs across the country.

Noble Lords raised the issue of age and the ageing population. On age discrimination, we know that our population is ageing, which will bring challenges. We also know that age discrimination will become an increasing problem, which is why a ban on age discrimination came into effect on 1 October 2012. I spoke of the huge value of older people in this House last December. This ban will catch those actions or omissions that result in genuinely unfair discrimination because of age, and allow our ageing population to continue to participate fully in society. We want to make this country one of the best places to grow old in, where older people get excellent care and support when they need it, where people are supported to live independently and where we make the most of the skills and talents everyone has to offer. By doing this we will not only help people to lead fulfilling lives but benefit the economy as a whole.

The noble Lord paraphrased the challenges of an ageing population and how political parties would respond to that. The noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, raised the issue of older people as volunteers for political parties. I assure her that, from my experience in my previous job, I can absolutely confirm that it is usually the older people who come out and do the hardest work in campaigns.

Much of the focus of this debate is on real and perceived problems that can arise in our country and abroad, on population density, youth unemployment, supporting older people in society, managing pressures on resources and the environment. All Governments need to focus on these issues and plan appropriately across the full range of policies and services. This covers, for example, savings and pensions provision, as well as health services and education. However, we should not lose sight of the advantages of demographic change. Younger populations offer the opportunity of a more productive workforce and hence can boost economic growth. Economic growth in turn offers the opportunity to invest in environmental protection measures. Older populations can provide wisdom and experience, which is often unrecognised and untapped in western economies. More diverse populations offer a competitive advantage in trade and networks in a globalised world.

So my message today is about the need for proper planning and provision, across the private, public and voluntary sectors, coupled with an optimism which comes with the tide of economic development and changes in populations, here and abroad. I once more thank my noble friend Lord Hodgson for bringing forward this timely and important debate.

Apprenticeships

Thursday 14th March 2013 Lords Chamber

Statement

14:58

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My Lords, I will now repeat a Statement made in the other place by my honourable friend Matthew Hancock. The Statement is as follows:

“With permission, I would like to make a Statement about the future of apprenticeships. Apprenticeships are back. Having existed in this country for more than six centuries, apprenticeships have through the ages provided the vehicle for skills and trades to be handed down the generations. At their best, they are an engine for social mobility and for giving employers and apprentices alike the skills they need to prosper. While apprenticeships declined in the last century, in this century they have recovered and grown in number, so that 500,000 started last year, compared with the 350,000 who started at university. They have grown in stature, becoming a career choice in their own right.

It is perhaps not surprising that research shows that, on average, a higher apprenticeship can raise your lifetime earnings by £150,000, about the same as a degree. While this growth in number is very welcome and should be welcomed by all sides of this House, I think all agree that we must continue to increase their quality and make them relevant to today’s economy.

We will not delay progress where we can act now. Steps have been taken already to require every apprenticeship to be a real job and to mandate that in most cases an apprenticeship lasts a minimum of a year. Today we are announcing how we will further strengthen the provision of English and maths within apprenticeships. The Employer Ownership of Skills pilot is putting power in the hands of employers to design qualifications and deliver apprenticeships in line with employers’ needs. We are extending apprenticeships to higher level skills and into the professions like insurance, accountancy and the law. But we need to go further.

Last year, we published a report by Doug Richard into the future of apprenticeships. I want to pay tribute to Doug Richard for the work done in producing his report. The report called for us to put employers in the driving seat, giving them more control over qualification design, training delivery and funding. It called for quality and standards to be raised across the programme and for a focus on outcomes, stripping out bureaucratic processes, and it called for more open data, more awareness and more employer engagement in schools.

We wholeheartedly agree with the principles and vision set out in the Richard report. The report, and the response, that I am placing in the Library of the House, provide a programme of reform that will be challenging for all involved in apprenticeships—providers, government, employers and apprentices themselves—but is absolutely right. Rigour and responsiveness will be our guiding principles. The Richard reforms build on the best of this historic programme, but will once again make it attuned to the needs of the modern workplace. We agree specifically that apprenticeships should be targeted at those in new jobs or roles to train for that role and as a springboard for their future careers, that employers should be at the centre of designing apprenticeship standards and qualifications, that assessment should be largely at the end, be more independent, involve employers, and be graded.

We agree on the need to raise further standards in English and maths and that employers be given greater control of funding to ensure that it is directed where it adds most value. Cost will be shared between apprentices, their employers and the Government. We agree that more open and accessible data are vital and we agree on the importance of improving awareness and engagement with schools, so much so that the Prime Minister has already set out that it should become the new norm for young people to go to university or into an apprenticeship.

This is a widespread package of reforms on which we will consult widely and which we will implement sensitively. The consultation will stay open until 22 May. We will carefully consider responses over the summer and publish our detailed implementation plan in the autumn. Be in no doubt, apprenticeships are a force for good. These reforms will help Britain in the global race by supporting unambiguously those who want to work hard and get on in life. They will help give all the chance to fulfil their potential. I commend this Statement to the House”.

15:03

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. However, we cannot help feeling that this is another lost opportunity on the Government’s part. On one level, we do not challenge their commitment to apprenticeships as they have certainly tried to drive up the number. However, there is a danger in going for volume without ensuring that the quality is sustained, as was mentioned in the Richard report. One of the things the Government are doing, which we welcome, is making sure that apprenticeships are real jobs lasting for a minimum of one year. That has not been happening over the past few years and some young people have been exploited and have not gained a proper qualification, so that step is a welcome improvement. However, is it enough in the current situation of very high youth unemployment, which must concern us?

I welcome another matter that the Government have addressed: namely, that the retraining of older employees will not be badged as apprenticeships but will be proper retraining, as it should have been. However, we are concerned that fewer than 10% of employers in this country employ apprentices. That is not an easy problem to solve but it requires determined, imaginative action from the Government, which we do not believe they have shown in their response to the Richard review. Yet again, they have ducked the Select Committee’s recommendation that every government procurement contract should contain a commitment to apprenticeships.

This week is National Apprenticeship Week, which we initiated when in government. It is a worthwhile event which celebrates the importance of apprenticeships. When I attended the Crossrail apprenticeship awards ceremony, I could not help reflecting that its 400 apprenticeships came about because the previous Labour Government had insisted that they had to be an inherent part of its contract. That applied not only to Crossrail but to the Olympics, where we managed to establish 300 apprenticeships. I have yet to receive a satisfactory response from the coalition Government on why they will not make apprenticeships a requirement of public procurement contracts. If they want to send a signal about their commitment to employers, surely they should insist that apprenticeships are part of any public contract.

There are also lost opportunities in relation to the Richard report. He wants his recommendations to be taken as a whole rather than as a “pick and mix”, which the Government have tended to do. I know that they say they will come back to it, but the real concern is that time is marching on and the need is there now. For instance, on supporting small businesses, we know what some of the successful measures are in terms of SMEs. We know that getting them together to be part of group training associations or hubs that encourage small businesses to take on apprentices works. Why have we still not got apprenticeship schemes in every school, college and university? If you want to signal that apprentices are a necessary part of their environments and that there are real opportunities, getting those organisations to take on apprentices would be a first-rate example.

I hope that in her response the Minister will tell us exactly how the Government will increase the pathetically small number of employers who take on apprentices. The record of FTSE 100 companies is not much better—only about one-third of them do so. This remains a lost opportunity and the Government are not making real and determined efforts to ensure that an apprenticeship will be available for all those young people who want one.

We know that demand enormously outstrips the supply. I have previously cited the example of BT; for 300 apprentice places—although the figure may have increased—there were some 25,000 applications. It is harder to get a BT apprenticeship than it is to get into Oxford or Cambridge. We remain in that situation because, first, we are not providing an example through government procurement contracts and, secondly, we do not have a determined drive to ensure that more companies take on apprentices.

Some local authorities are doing well, but why are not all local authorities having apprenticeship drives? Why do not all local employment partnerships ensure that apprenticeships have to be an inherent part of their programmes? The noble Baroness can cite a large figure of 500,000 apprenticeships—I have said that there are problems about their quality—but that is not enough if one looks at the participation rate of companies. I still go around talking to employers who seem to have little or no idea that they could, to their benefit, take on apprentices. The Government need to do a lot more and ensure that every school has links to the business community. They need to ensure that apprentices go back into schools and colleges to give out the message on how good apprenticeships are.

At a meeting of the All-Party Parliamentary Apprenticeships Group, attended by about 30 young apprentices, I asked them, “How many of you were advised by your teachers in your school to take up an apprenticeship?”. About two hands went up; the vast majority of young people are still being propelled towards the academic path. There is nothing wrong with that, except that it is not suitable for them all. The guidance that is given in schools and colleges is still nowhere near good enough. If you want to improve that situation, you have to make sure that there are links to the business community. It would not harm primary as well as secondary schools to do that. When young people see apprentices coming back to the school, saying what a great experience an apprenticeship is and how it has changed their lives—how they can earn while they learn—it is one of the most powerful messages that they can get from people who were part of their peer group.

I look forward to the Minister’s response. I have a whole range of questions that I should like to put to her on the Richard review. Will she confirm whether the Secretary of State for Education will provide funding to deliver improved awareness in schools of apprenticeship opportunities, as recommended by the Richard review? What measures does Secretary of State for Education intend to take to ensure that apprenticeships are properly promoted in schools? What measures does the Minister intend to take to support smaller businesses to engage with the apprenticeship system?

We should not have to wait yet another six months or so. There are easy options, some of which I have described, that the Government could be taking now. Concepts such as group training associations are nothing new—in fact, the National Apprenticeship Service should be driving them—but more determination on the part of the Government is needed. They should give out a very positive signal that if you want a government contract, you have to commit yourself to taking on a number of apprentices. If the HS2 goes ahead—I hope that it does—one would need only one apprentice for every £1 million of investment to generate some 33,000 apprenticeships. That is a sobering thought, but it will not happen unless it is made an absolute requirement. There could be so much benefit. If one considers what Crossrail did, how it engaged with its contractors and SMEs and got them to take on apprenticeships, one can see the benefit of that approach.

I still think that the Government’s response to the Richard review is a lost opportunity and I look forward to the Minister’s response.

15:13

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

I thank the noble Lord for his reply. I am sorry that in parts of it he was rather more negative than he usually is on this subject. However, I pay tribute to him and to his Government for what they did to revive the apprenticeship scheme in their time, and we are building on that and taking it forward.

Perhaps I may take up some of the noble Lord’s questions. He mentioned the high level of youth unemployment, which is mercifully coming down, although not fast enough. Of course, we have a revitalised apprenticeship programme, which, alongside an employability skills programme, will help young people to take up opportunities. We also have the traineeship programme in place, and that, too, will be of assistance to young people in getting back into employment. National Apprenticeship Week is certainly a great success. It is raising the profile of apprenticeships this week and has gone from strength to strength. It was interesting to see that the apprentice of the year was a young woman engineer at British Aerospace. She is obviously doing an awful lot for gender equality in STEM subjects, as well as personally raising the profile of all the good things that apprenticeships can do.

The noble Lord mentioned, as he has done before, public procurement and having a set number of apprenticeships for every public procurement exercise. Of course, we support the appropriate use of public procurement to promote the take-up of apprenticeships, but under EU law we cannot make contracts conditional on hiring workers or apprentices, so the Government leave—

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

We did not find that to be a problem. That was said to me when I was a Minister, yet we challenged it and were able to bring about those apprenticeships. I am just asking the Minister not to accept that. We have never called for a set number of apprenticeships, although there are various formulae. I find what the Minister says regarding apprenticeships being part of a public procurement contract incredible. I had exactly the same response but we challenged it and were able to bring about apprenticeships with Crossrail and the Olympics. I urge the Minister and the Secretary of State to challenge that and to show determination.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

I note what the noble Lord says. Obviously we try to encourage firms to take apprentices, but we use that route rather than making contracts conditional on it. However, I know of the success of the Crossrail apprenticeship scheme and how well that worked.

The noble Lord mentioned awareness of apprenticeships, and that links into careers information, advice and guidance, which of course is now statutory in schools. As part of that, they now have to give information about apprenticeships as well as about higher education and other opportunities. We have recently heard the Prime Minister reiterate that it should now be the norm for young people to go into either higher education or an apprenticeship, so we are putting a great focus on that. One of the things that Ofsted will monitor in schools is how well careers information, advice and guidance is delivering that aspect of opportunities for young people. The noble Lord is absolutely right: there is a real issue concerning the number of young people, parents and employers who are aware of the range of opportunities that are available. The more publicity we can get for this programme, the more we will be able to engage all those parties in seeing the benefits of apprenticeships for all.

We know that apprentice alumni go back into schools. Obviously there is not a particularly co-ordinated programme but we are aware that it happens and that it can be extraordinarily effective. Any former pupil going back into a school to talk with enthusiasm about what they are doing is a tremendous motivator for the next generation, and we will certainly do what we can to encourage that.

Of course, apprentices have to be in a job. So far as concerns insisting that schools, colleges and so on take on apprentices, it is important that a job is identified for them beforehand. Again, there is an ongoing programme of raising awareness and of making the opportunities available.

The noble Lord talked about the links between businesses and schools. We know that these are absolutely crucial, and work is ongoing in this respect. We are not waiting six months for any of this to happen; it is all ongoing at present. Discussions take place between employers and education providers—schools, businesses and higher education—to make absolutely sure that employers are aware of the benefits of having apprentices and that young people, and indeed adult returners, are aware of the possibilities of apprenticeships.

Going back to careers information and guidance, Ofsted will have a review in the summer to assess just how well the delivery of apprenticeship careers advice is going. We will keep a monitoring eye on that.

The noble Lord mentioned demand outstripping supply and a number of cases where the extremely efficient apprenticeship schemes are hugely important. He said that time was marching on but we are now taking action. I hope that the Opposition will see that in many ways this is a cross-party initiative. As I said, we are building on the work that his party did in government, and we hope that we will be able to take it forward so that it becomes a very exciting and vibrant programme.

[Lord Wigley]

My Lords, in thanking the Minister for her Statement and echoing the enthusiasm for apprenticeships that is shared in all parts of the House, may I ask whether she has had any discussion with those in the National Assembly for Wales in Cardiff who have also been considering proposals on apprenticeships? Is she looking at the cross-border issues, in particular? I am thinking of a company such as BAE, which might be located in north-east Wales but with a good proportion of the workforce coming from over the border in north-west England. Are the schemes that she is considering employer-led or individual-led? Obviously in those circumstances, it could raise some problems.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

Indeed, discussions are ongoing with the devolved communities to ensure that we have a UK-wide programme. There are border issues as the noble Lord suggests. A lot of the apprenticeships are employer-led. We are increasingly making sure that employers define what they want by way of an apprenticeship and the sort of people they want. We certainly hope that boundaries between Wales and England will be no barrier to any good apprentice getting an opportunity.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I declare an interest as president of William Morris Craft Fellowship and patron of the Heritage Crafts Association. Will my noble friend recognise how important it is for young people to be encouraged to go into these highly skilled crafts? Will she accept that most of the members of the Heritage Crafts Association are one-man or one-woman businesses? It is extremely difficult for them to take on apprentices, much as they might wish to do so. Some of the crafts are in danger of dying out. Will she do everything that she can to encourage young men and women in our schools and colleges to consider a career in what I call traditional crafts?

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My noble friend makes a valid point. I have been involved for a long time with the livery companies which were the very early providers of many of those old heritage crafts. As he says, many of them are extremely small businesses—microbusinesses. We hope that we will get feedback from the ongoing consultation that will help us to focus on those particular crafts and skills because many of them are extremely important to our heritage. As my noble friend says, with such very small numbers, it is difficult to have the critical mass for them to continue. I hope that he will contribute to the consultation and bring forward ideas on how we can help very small businesses.

[Lord Addington]

I thank my noble friend for the announcement on apprenticeships. I congratulate the Government on expanding the numbers, and on the good publicity for taking on something that is basically skilled manual work and showing it as a valid alternative to the idea of higher education. However, I am afraid that I have to return to my regular song on this. What are we doing to ensure that people who cannot pass the English and maths assessment get through? I mean those who have dyslexia and dyscalculia, which are the two biggest things—a rough estimate is that 13% of the population are in those two spectrums. An English and maths qualification can cause a problem for that group for whom working with their hands would be the natural way forward. As night follows day, if someone does not want to be qualified for a white-collar job, he should be doing something requiring manual skills.

At the moment, universities and the Government, through the disabled students allowance, allow a dyslexic student to take a degree. At the moment there are tremendous problems in getting that same person through the key stage 2 English equivalent test. We have moved in the past few years from, “It can’t be done; it’s very difficult; are you sure it can be done? It’s not my fault”. When will the Government grab this by the back of the neck and make sure that, according to the duties under the Equality Act, this group are through?

In the snappily titled, The Future of Apprenticeships in England: Next Steps from the Richard Review, there are two questions. Question 13 asks:

“What are the specific obstacles to all Apprentices achieving level 2 English and maths as part of their Apprenticeship, and how could these be overcome?”.

Question 14 asks:

“How would a requirement to have all Apprentices achieve level 2 in English and maths impact on employers, providers and potential learners? What are the risks and potential solutions?”.

If those two questions do not give us a chance to have that answered properly, I do not know what does.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

My noble friend is right to point to the difficulties for people with dyslexia and other forms of learning disadvantage in passing traditional tests and exams. It has been identified that certain levels of maths and English are important even in very practical areas, but we are looking to the consultation to give us further ideas so that young people, or indeed adults, are not disadvantaged when they have, as he says, very practical skills but cannot meet stringent requirements for maths and English. We will look at the different ways in which these areas can be assessed in order to ensure that young people are not disadvantaged in securing proper, high-quality apprenticeships. The assessment should not make it more difficult for them to demonstrate their skill areas.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, like other noble Lords I welcome the importance that is being attached to apprenticeships. Historically they have proved to be important both to people who have gone through them and to their employers. I want to focus on one sentence in the Statement. I hope it means what I think it does, because it marks a significant step forward. It states:

“And we are extending apprenticeships to higher level skills, and into the professions like insurance, accountancy and the law”.

The trend over recent decades has been to make entrance to many more professions graduate-only, which has made them more and more socially exclusive and difficult for people who historically were able to take alternative routes without going through a degree course. If this means a check on that trend and perhaps a reversal so that different routes into these professions become more widely available, that is, as I say, a significant step forward.

I should like a little more detail. Have discussions been held with the professions as to how this might be done? Is it possible to extend this to other professions such as journalism, which I know reasonably well? Many would enter it at the age of 16 by working on the local newspaper, whereas now across wide swathes of the profession, entry is virtually graduate-only. Also, can the Minister give us some idea of the timescale and whether any targets are in mind? However, I repeat that this is to be warmly welcomed if it really means that there is to be a wider and more socially inclusive method of entry into a whole range of professions that have been steadily excluding people over recent decades.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

I welcome the comments of the noble Lord, who I am sure like me remembers the days when there were many practical routes into all these professions and trades—routes that over the years have become graduate-only. We in no way wish to downplay the value of degrees, but an important step in raising the profile and breadth of apprenticeships will be taken if they can be linked to the status and standing that these sorts of professions have. It is definitely something that we are encouraging. We have not set any targets yet, and again I come back to the fact that this is a consultation period. However, we have been in discussions with the different professional areas. At the moment we have a total of 27 projects and two trailblazers, which will provide more than 25,000 higher apprenticeship places over the next three years. Those higher apprenticeships are going to be available in the very areas we are discussing. People are embarking on apprenticeships in a much wider range of professional and work areas than those that are traditionally associated with them.

[Lord Haskel]

My Lords, following on from the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, about heritage, the impression was given that this was really quite a small affair. It is not. This is a business that has a turnover of over £5 billion and is growing. I urge the Minister to make sure that we try to support every growing sector of the economy. This is a growing sector, and apprenticeships here are important to grow the economy as well as for the tourist industry and the other things that she mentioned.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

I apologise if I gave the impression that the heritage industry was small. I was trying to make the point that many of the component parts of it are very small. The noble Lord is absolutely right that it is a very important part of tradition and, of course, of the tourist industry, to which it makes a great contribution. However, it is much more important than that, too: it includes a very diverse range of skill and work areas and it is vital that we do not lose sight of these.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

My Lords, I will take advantage of the fact that we have not exhausted the time. This is a really key issue. I apologise if I sounded negative. I do not want to be negative but just want to get the Government to recognise the size and scale of the problem. Even though the Minister says that youth unemployment is coming down, as I am sure she knows, in some parts of the country it is not and the levels are very high, so I want to try to inject a sense of urgency into the situation.

The Minister did not really respond to the point that I made about there still being only a very small number of businesses participating in apprenticeships. What positive steps are the Government going to take? For instance, addressing the very worthwhile point made by the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, about heritage craft skills, the difficulty with those small businesses—sometimes it is just one person on their own or a small group—is, first, that they face what they see as an administrative burden and, secondly, that they worry about whether they can carry an apprentice and create that job. That is why, again, they need to be encouraged to create their own little hubs and group training associations, where some of that administrative burden can be shared.

I am critical because, as I have said, there is a danger that in the first attempt we are driving up volume rather than quality as well, although that is being addressed, which I welcome. Interestingly, one my noble friend Lord Grocott’s point, I met a young apprentice accountant as part of the Crossrail scheme. When we talk about apprenticeships, we seem to forget that what they involve is much more wide-ranging than manual skills: there are over 200 apprenticeship frameworks. We have gone well beyond what used to be regarded as the traditional route. In relation to the higher level—

[Earl Attlee]

My Lords, I think the House has been very tolerant. The noble Lord is speaking in Back-Bench time.

[Lord Young of Norwood Green]

I did wait to see whether there were any further Back-Bench speakers and there were not, so I took the opportunity. If there are any, I will give way. However, as there are not, I will just use the opportunity that we have.

On higher-level apprenticeships, again, there is a view that it is an either/or choice: you either take an apprenticeship or you go to university. However, it should not be an either/or choice because, as we know, higher-level apprenticeships can lead to university degrees. I will end on that.

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

I was in no way complacent about youth unemployment. We all know that it is a disastrous start for many young people if they cannot get into a job and into work when they finish their compulsory education. The noble Lord mentioned getting employers more involved. There is now, for instance, a £1,500 start-up to help SMEs get their first apprenticeship scheme going. We have seen 6,800 starts between February and October 2012, and there are a further 12,100 in the pipeline.

As for small and medium-sized enterprises, an increasing number of employers are coming on board and taking on apprenticeships. As for the larger firms, discussions are ongoing with some of the major firms that take significant numbers of apprentices. The noble Lord mentioned BT. There is also BAE Systems and Rolls-Royce. Some very large firms have extraordinarily well established apprenticeship programmes, and the Government are in constant dialogue with them to try to ensure that best practice can be passed on and that it is made as easy as possible for employers to take on apprenticeships. One of our other challenges is to reduce the bureaucracy so that there are no unnecessary disincentives to employers taking on apprenticeships. Of course, more work needs to be done, and we very much look forward to the results of the consultation and to ensuring that we take that implementation forward in the autumn.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, if second innings are being allowed, is my noble friend aware that the William Morris Craft Fellowship is always willing to visit schools and other institutions to encourage young people? Many members of the Heritage Crafts Association are indeed in the position indicated by the noble Lord, Lord Young, in that they are tiny—sometimes one-man or one-woman—businesses. Nevertheless, they are anxious to share their skills and expertise, but they also need help and encouragement of a positive, and indeed financial, nature to take on apprentices and train them fully. Some of these crafts take a long time to master.

Indeed, only two days ago we had a group in the House from the Heritage Crafts Association, including a tailor from Savile Row, a maker of wonderful leather goods and a calligrapher, all of whom are more than willing to do whatever they can to help but are very much in need—not so much the tailor from Savile Row, probably—of assistance and encouragement. Can we look to the Government to take advantage of the offers that are on the table and further assist and encourage these extremely important crafts and craftspeople?

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

I admire my noble friend’s ability to bring to everyone’s attention the organisations close to his heart. I am quite sure, with the publicity that he has given them, that people will be very anxious to take up those offers.

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, we have three minutes. I will take 30 seconds. Not surprisingly, the Minister was getting notes from the Box in response to my question, which was in a fairly narrow area of her brief. Will she undertake to write to me with as much detail as she has available on this subject of apprenticeships into various professions, and place a copy of whatever information she can provide in the Library?

[Baroness Garden of Frognal]

Yes, I will certainly be very happy to do that. I do not want to sound like a broken record, but I repeat that these issues are out for consultation and we very much hope to hear feedback from the professions that have already expressed interest to see how we can increase these areas.

House adjourned at 3.38 pm.