Accountability and Transparency in the NHS Debate
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William Cash
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Accountability and Transparency in the NHS
William Cash Excerpts(11 years, 7 months ago)
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Andy Burnham
No, I will not. I was copied into an e-mail by Professor Brian Jarman in mid-March 2010 and, having asked the CQC to investigate what he had said, I wrote back to him on 31 March 2010. That was literally my last duty as Secretary of State for Health after the general election was called. I was not able to respond further to inquiries. It is important to provide some balance to the hon. Gentleman’s comments.
Changing the culture in the NHS requires vigilance and persistence. As Robert Francis says, we have all been too remote from the front line.
The foundation trust reform was a serious attempt to end the top-down culture in the NHS, bringing more accountability and transparency. If we look back, however, we will see that, when the centre stood back, there were places where an unhealthy local culture became even more firmly established. In some trusts a national top-down style was replaced with a local top-down, bullying style, which can be even worse. I can remember the shock I felt on reading the first Francis report’s finding that, on receiving FT status, one of the first things that the Mid Staffs board did was to resolve to hold more meetings in private. That was an audacious breach of the spirit of the legislation passed by this House.
Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)
The shadow Secretary of State and I have been engaged on this issue for a very long time. Will he admit that it was totally unacceptable for him and his predecessor to refuse to have a public inquiry, which I demanded relentlessly, under the Inquiries Act 2005? Does he agree that it was wrong to give foundation trust status when it clearly should not have been given, and does he accept that I raised the issue of gagging orders and confidentiality in a health debate in 2009, not 2010?
Andy Burnham
Foundation trust status was not a matter for Ministers. It was a job for Monitor, so it has to answer that concern. The hon. Gentleman is right that we had many discussions about a public inquiry. He will remember that in July 2009, two months after I was appointed Secretary of State, I brought in Robert Francis QC to conduct an independent inquiry into what happened. I did not order a full public inquiry and I will explain the reason why later.
The difficult thing about the fact that the Mid Staffs board was holding more meetings in private was that we in this House had passed up our powers to intervene to stop it. That is another lesson we must learn: that the FT reform was naive in thinking that local autonomy would lead to improvement in all cases. In a national health service, there are areas where national direction is needed, and when things go wrong, there must be immediate powers of intervention, which, on my arrival in the Department in June 2009, I found I did not have. Foundation trust policy needs to be reviewed and adjusted to mitigate those dangers, including through a reconsideration of the power to de-authorise a failing foundation trust, which was recommended by the first Francis report, but repealed by the Health and Social Care Act 2012.
We also need to consider targets and how they are used. Targets helped to deliver the lowest waiting times in history and that must not be forgotten. However, in places, they reinforced negative management practices. In focusing on only part of the patient experience, there was not sufficient focus on the overall patient experience and the whole person—a particular problem when it comes to caring for very elderly people whose needs are a blur of the physical, mental and social.
Robert Francis is right to call for a fundamental rethink of the way in which we care for older people, and I have put his recommendations at the heart of Labour’s policy review. However, there are more immediate things that we can do and I will spend the rest of my time on five substantive points.
The Secretary of State for Health (Mr Jeremy Hunt)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) on securing this important and timely debate.
We should start by remembering why we are having this debate. Truly shameful things happened at Stafford hospital. Patients were left unwashed for days, sometimes in sheets soiled with urine and excrement. Relatives had to take bed sheets home to wash them because the hospital would not. Patients with dementia went hungry with their meals sitting right in front of them, because no one realised or cared that they were unable to feed themselves. If we are to prevent that from happening again, accountability for what happened is vital. I will talk plainly about that, including about the role of Sir David Nicholson.
At the outset, let me reiterate that the NHS is one of our most cherished institutions. We can be proud that for 65 years it has ensured that everyone is entitled to treatment, regardless of their background or income. We can be proud of the excellent treatment and care that is the hallmark of most parts of the NHS. Most of all, we can be proud of the front-line doctors, nurses and health care assistants who look after 3 million people every week, with dedication, commitment and compassion.
If we love the NHS, we must be prepared to be honest about its failures, and to criticise me for doing so suggests, I am afraid, dangerous complacency from the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham). The tragedy of Mid Staffs shows how the desire to celebrate success got in the way of speaking out when things went wrong, and if we are to prevent such things from recurring, we must never allow our love of the NHS to stifle our determination to hold systems and individuals to account.
Where does that accountability lie? Sir David Nicholson has been the focus of much attention, and as a manager in the system that failed to spot and rectify the appalling cases at Mid Staffs, he bears some responsibility. As he said, the focus was lost, and he has apologised and been held to account by this House and many others. However, I do not believe that he bears total, or indeed personal, responsibility for what happened. He was at the strategic health authority for 10 months during the period in question, overseeing 50 hospitals at a time when his main responsibility was the merger of three SHAs into one. He consistently warned both Ministers and managers of the dangers of hitting the target and missing the point.
It is just not true that if there had been no David Nicholson at the SHA, there would have been no Mid Staffs; others bear far more direct responsibility and the Francis report tells us who. It makes it clear that the primary responsibility for what went wrong lies with the board of the trust. Astonishingly, members of that board seem to have melted into thin air, some moving to other jobs in the system, and others receiving generous payoffs.
Mr Cash
As my right hon. Friend knows, I do not agree with his assessment of Sir David Nicholson in this context. There was a systems failure that affected not only Staffordshire but the entire health service, and that lies very much at the heart of the problem. In my speech I will quote some statements made by Sir David at a conference a few months ago.
Dr Phillip Lee (Bracknell) (Con)
As ever, it is an honour to follow the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey).
Let me begin by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for Bristol North West (Charlotte Leslie) on securing a debate about this important subject. It is a subject that I think should be debated more often in the Chamber, and I find it surprising that fewer Members wish to speak about it than have wished to speak about some of the other issues that we have considered since Christmas. I think all Members should reflect on that.
I believe that the core of this problem is responsibility: responsibility in public life. The general public are fed up—not increasingly fed up, but completely fed up—with hearing about scandal after scandal involving the national health service, the BBC, the newspapers and so on, for which no one takes any responsibility. No one walks. No one looks at themselves in the mirror in the morning and says “I did not do as well as I should have; I am paid a decent wage; the honourable thing to do is resign”—not “be sacked”, but resign.
I do not want to make a speech about Sir David Nicholson. Sir David Nicholson should know that he ought to resign. I cannot comprehend how he can think that his position is sustainable from a moral standpoint, but if no morality is involved, what about competence? He may have been head of the strategic health authority for only a relatively short time, but he was aware of the mortality rates when he was in that job. What did he do about it? If he did nothing about it, why is he still in post? However, I do not want to make this a personal issue.
Having worked in the national health service for 13 or 14 years, I do not need to be told about the problems caused by the culture in that institution. I learnt how it was as a medical student, and I saw it at first hand as a junior doctor. I want to say something about that, and also about competence in general. We need competent individuals in charge of our hospitals and on hospital wards, but I am not sure that we have had them in recent years. I also want to say something about responsibility in the light of that.
The national health service is a huge institution—some might say too huge—and because of its size, the fact that it has grown over the past 60 or 70 years, and the fact that the people who work in it rarely leave, institutionalised behaviour is rife. It is rife in medicine and in management. In my view, former Secretaries of State on both sides of the House display such institutionalised behaviour themselves. They may wish to reflect on that at the end of the debate.
The first debate in the House in which I spoke, apart from the debate during which I made my maiden speech, was a Backbench Business Committee debate about compensation for haemophiliacs. I was struck then by the institutionalised response from the Department of Health. It seemed plain that the Department did not want to set a precedent by doing what was obviously the right thing, namely compensating about 4,000 people and their families for what the system had done to them.
I am therefore not surprised by the Francis report, which those who read it will discover to be a not particularly impressive document. Parts of it have the ring of a Nuremberg defence. It is remarkable that individuals cannot be held responsible for their actions within a system. That system is apparently so perfect that no one within it needs to be good. I think that we need a health service in which individuals, including Secretaries of State, take responsibility for their decisions at every stage.
Dr Lee
I am talking about those who were Secretaries of State in the last Administration. In response to an intervention during his speech, the right hon. Member for Leigh (Andy Burnham) said, “I passed it on to Monitor.” The attitude that leads people to push away the process of decision making and take no responsibility for the outcomes needs to end.
Alan Johnson
No, I am not giving way—at least not to the hon. Gentleman. I have heard enough.
This is what Francis said in paragraph 108 of his report:
“To place too much emphasis on individual blame is to risk perpetuating the illusion that removal of particular individuals is all that is necessary. That is certainly not the case here. To focus, therefore, on blame will perpetuate the cycle of defensiveness, concealment, lessons not being identified and further harm.”
So the man who knows most about what happened at Stafford hospital—and who was entrusted by this Government and their predecessors to conduct not one, but two, inquiries, and who in four volumes running to millions of words sets out what happened, why it happened and how it was allowed to happen—counsels against the very action that this motion appears to propose.
Francis identified who was accountable, and the Secretary of State was absolutely right: it was the chief executive, the chair and the board of the Mid Staffordshire trust. A number of clinicians are also held accountable for the appalling lapse in standards of care at Stafford. This accountability regime is set out in legislation approved by this House.
The Francis findings are consistent with those that emerged from the inquiry into the care of children receiving complex cardiac surgery at Bristol Royal infirmary between 1984 and 1995. In that case, five individuals at the hospital, including the chief executive, were the subject of adverse comments. In respect of both Bristol and Stafford, an argument was made to an inquiry that there was an extenuating failure of national policy. At Stafford, it was national targets; at Bristol, it was inadequate resources.
It is worth recalling the Bristol inquiry’s response. Sir Ian Kennedy said:
“The inadequacy in resources for PCS”—
paediatric cardiac surgery—
“at Bristol was typical of the NHS as a whole. From this, it follows that whatever went wrong at Bristol was not caused by lack of resources. Other centres laboured under the same or similar difficulties.”
We must remember that these were the days when one in every 25 patients on the cardiac waiting list died before they could be operated on, and when somebody with a serious heart condition could wait a year to see the cardiologist, three months to see the consultant and then 18 months to two years for the operation. That is why targets had to be introduced—to get a grip on this awful situation.
Mr Cash
I am astonished by the line on accountability that the right hon. Gentleman is taking. He was the Secretaryof State and I had a row with him at the time—and, indeed, with his successor—about the question of holding a proper full public inquiry under the Inquiries Act 2005. I wrote to him, too, and I did not get satisfactory answers under the guidelines laid down in the 2005 Act on the prime ministerial rules issued by the Cabinet Office.
Alan Johnson
On the question of a public inquiry, when Francis reported on his first inquiry, commissioned by my right hon. Friend the Member for Leigh, he made the point that it was about people affected being able to come and tell their story, and Francis said in his first report:
“I am confident that many of the witnesses who have assisted the inquiry in written or oral evidence would not have done so had the inquiry been conducted in public.”
It is very important that that first inquiry allowed people to come forward. The right hon. Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr Lansley) may also well have been right to make the second stage of that a public inquiry, which was authorised because of one of the Francis recommendations, because we now have all the information, provided before a Queen’s counsel, about what happened there.
Francis is very clear about no blame being apportioned to any Minister. It is of course right for Ministers to be accountable if anyone knew what was going on and did nothing to stop it, or if something that was going on was a result of a Government edict or policy, but that was not the case at Stafford.
Targets had to be introduced to get a grip on this terrible situation of lack of access to health care. Targets did not cost lives; they helped to save lives. They were accompanied by the resources, the capacity and the political will that transformed waiting lists of 18 months to two years to a maximum of 18 weeks and an average of nine.
This is what Francis said about targets:
“It is important to make clear that it is not suggested that properly designed targets, appropriately monitored cannot provide considerable benefits and serve a useful purpose…indeed the inquiry accepts that they can be an important part of the health system in which the democratically elected Government of the day sets its expectations of providers who are funded by the taxpayer.”
The right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr Dorrell) was absolutely right to say that long waiting lists have dogged the NHS since it was created in 1948. Rudolf Klein, the great historian of the NHS, says every Health Secretary shouted their orders from the bridge and the crew carried on regardless. Something had to be done to deal with that, and it was done.
Alan Johnson
The principal point about targets is that they reduced waiting list times. They changed a situation in which people were dying while on waiting lists, which was a disgrace in a civilised country like ours.
The Francis report also gives no comfort to those who expected him to offer up Sir David Nicholson’s head on a plate. The irony is that they choose to make this attack on an NHS that is learning the lessons of Stafford and an individual, Sir David Nicholson, who has done more than anyone to make quality of care the organising principle of the NHS. I, like my three successors as Health Secretary, consider Sir David to be part of the solution, rather than part of the problem He is not perfect—none of us is—but he is a good public servant who is committed to the NHS, its patients and staff. If he knew what was going on at Stafford, or colluded in the awful events there, or if any of his edicts, policies or pronouncements were in any way responsible for what happened, I would agree with his detractors. No one knew what was going on at Stafford; not even the press, who pride themselves on fearlessly exposing wrongdoing. Not a single question was raised by local MPs in this House about what was happening at Stafford, and Francis has something to say about the way they passed on complaints.
Alan Johnson
No, and I read the hon. Gentleman’s correspondence and it in no way drew attention to what was happening at Stafford.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. Please resume your seat, Mr Cash.
Mr William Cash (Stone) (Con)
I believe strongly that we must not only look back properly at what happened at Stafford hospital but look forward. We must learn the lessons and we must ensure that what happens in future does not lead to the trauma experienced by the victims and patients in my constituency and those of my hon. Friends the Members for Stafford (Jeremy Lefroy) and for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley).
This is a debate about accountability and transparency and, as others have said, we also need a debate in Government time on the Floor of the House on the Francis report. On the question of accountability and transparency, I want to start with an issue that has not yet been properly considered in the debate: the role of the Secretary of State under national health legislation. Section 1 of such legislation clearly states the duties of the Secretary of State, and always has done. I was astonished, as I made clear at the time, when the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) left out that part of the question of accountability.
I have been involved in the history of this case. As the Member of Parliament for Stafford from 1984 to 1997 and the Member of Parliament for Stone from 1997 to the present day, I have had many constituents, including Debra Hazeldine, a prominent member of Cure the NHS, who have played an important role in drawing attention to these matters. I have worked closely with them over the whole of this period.
Contrary to what the right hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle said—I imagine it must have been a serious slip of memory—I wrote letters to him. Ministerial guidelines from 2005, issued by the Cabinet Office, set out in great deal what must happen when a Member of Parliament writes to a Secretary of State. He must receive a personal reply. I do not need to go into the full details now, but only the other day I asked the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General to reaffirm the contents of those guidelines, which are still applicable.
There are only 650 of us, and serious matters can arise from the complaints we make. I am talking not about the complaints procedure of the national health service but about a Member of Parliament going to the Secretary of State to raise a specific question, usually enclosing correspondence from a constituent, and asking for action. In my case, I said that the matters I raised were both serious and urgent and that they required the personal attention of the Secretary of State. I have not the time to go into the detail, but successive Secretaries of State simply did not take the kind of action that I would have expected following those letters.
Alan Johnson
This is a fascinating subject and I am willing to have a look at any correspondence between the hon. Gentleman and me when I was Health Secretary. I certainly tried very hard to correspond with all Members of Parliament. Does he accept what Francis said:
“Local MPs received feedback and concerns about the Trust. However, these were largely just passed on to others without follow up or analysis of their cumulative implications…They might wish to consider how to increase their sensitivity with regard to the detection of local problems in healthcare”?
We all have lessons to learn from the Francis report; does he accept that he has lessons to learn, too?
Mr Cash
We all have lessons to learn about all matters relating to these questions, but the guidelines also talk about the necessity of chasing and following up in the Department. It is probably a question of the correspondence unit in the Department and the private office. There was a failure and the Francis report made it absolutely clear that the guidelines were not complied with and were not operated effectively. I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman, on reflection, will recall that that was what the report said.
I referred to these matters in my witness statement, and Una O’Brien, the permanent secretary at the Department of Health, also made it clear in her evidence that if such letters were received now, they would receive an immediate response, irrespective of whether the hospital was a foundation trust or not. The bottom line is that there was a failure within the Department and by successive Secretaries of State. The shadow Secretary of State acknowledged in his evidence that he looked at these letters. I will not dispute that. However, not only were the matters not dealt with satisfactorily, but I cannot absolve the Secretaries of State from their failure to agree to the 2005 Act inquiry.
I do not need to rehearse the history of the case. I asked not once, not twice, but repeatedly, and I had to urge and persuade the shadow Secretary of State at the time and also—I am glad that, to his great credit, he decided to do so—the present Prime Minister who, as Leader of the Opposition, decided in the light of my representations and no doubt those of others to have the 2005 Act inquiry. Without that we would not be discussing the Francis inquiry—the present one, not the previous one, important though that was—and the others. They were Government inquiries, but they did not do the job in the way the present inquiry did.
Andy Burnham
I am listening carefully to what the hon. Gentleman is saying. It is not strictly true to say that that was a Government inquiry. I brought in Robert Francis—will he acknowledge that?—in July 2009 to conduct an independent inquiry. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson) said, in presenting his findings Robert Francis said that he felt that more people had come forward because of the nature of that inquiry.
Mr Cash
I will let the matter rest at that point for the present purpose.
I move on to the next question of accountability, with respect to Sir David Nicholson. I referred to Sir David in a number of debates way back as far as 2009. I also referred to him in my evidence to the Health Committee, in my witness statement and in correspondence with the Francis inquiry. In my judgment, for the reasons that I have already given, there was a systems failure with respect to this whole terrible tragedy, not only in relation to Mid Staffordshire, but more generally.
We need to turn a new page. I am not saying that Sir David should receive a P45 now. What I am saying is that, sooner rather than later, it is essential that he departs his post. I disagree with the Secretary of State and therefore also, I admit, with the Prime Minister on this matter, and so do many others. Accountability must mean what it says, and in this context it means carrying the can. The whole saga took place on Sir David’s watch, even though he was not at West Midlands for more than a certain time, and the problems that have arisen carry with them issues of accountability.
I acknowledge that Robert Francis referred to scapegoats. It is not, as has been said before and I repeat, a question of blaming scapegoats. It is a question of responsibility and where it lies at the time. In my judgment it did not lie only with the Secretaries of State of the time. In fairness, they have apologised.
I conclude with a statement made by David Nicholson at a conference that took place a few months ago. He made it clear in that statement that he took personal responsibility for what had happened. It is very important that we recognise that he has apologised and that he has made a statement that is clearly an admission that he lost the plot when, as he put it, ward 10 in Mid Staffs was under severe stress. That is the problem and I believe he has to go.
Dr Sarah Wollaston (Totnes) (Con)
I want to start by thanking the vast majority of staff in the NHS, who go to work every day motivated to serve their patients and deliver world-class care.
We should not think that we can just return to the halcyon, storm-free days of the 1970s, when NHS care was perfect. Before I started medical school, I worked as a nursing auxiliary, which would now be called a health care assistant, in what was then known as a geriatric hospital. I have no wish to return to the days of vast, mixed wards and a rather authoritarian approach to care. I would far rather the NHS of today than that of the 1970s.
However, the mantra that the NHS is the envy of the world sometimes gets in the way of providing decent feedback and criticism when things go wrong—and after listening to the words of the right hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd), who could say that things do not go wrong? The failures at Mid Staffs, and the fact that more than 1,000 people died in a single hospital, are truly shocking. Robert Francis told the Health Committee that he had spent three years of his life “listening in horror”—how shocking! It is hard to imagine any other institution or organisation where death on that scale would not have led to prosecutions, yet too often in the NHS it is not prosecutions that follow but promotions, just as it was in this case.
It has, unfortunately, become something of a heresy to criticise the NHS, and my comments are not to be interpreted as criticising the vast majority of staff, but rather as a means of considering how we can help those staff and their patients. It is vital that NHS staff are free and feel safe to raise concerns. This week, at a meeting in the House that I was chairing, Robert Francis spoke about “complaints being a gift”, but that is not the experience of staff or patients within the NHS.
The Health Committee conducted an inquiry into complaints and litigation in the NHS that reported in June 2011, and I wish to read from the chilling evidence that we heard from Nicola Monte. She spoke of her experience of being barrier-nursed in Stafford, and said that a nurse came into her room and berated her saying, “I have been off sick because of you complaining about me. Do you realise the suffering you have caused me?” Too often, staff end up feeling that they are victims because—as they know—they are often scapegoated for what are system failures, often by management. That runs throughout the NHS; the response to complaints is defensive and dismissive and that must change if we are to implement what Robert Francis rightly recommends as a new culture change of openness, transparency and candour within the NHS.
I hope, however, that no one will think that introducing a statutory duty of candour can be a single approach. That will not work without a culture change that supports and welcomes complaints as a “gift” to identify problems and improve care. I hope the Government will implement in full the recommendations made by Robert Francis so that complainants are regarded not as the problem but as part of the solution.
I particularly welcome the Secretary of State’s announcement that gagging clauses are to be outlawed with immediate effect throughout the NHS but—I hope he will not mind my saying this—that must extend to the top of the system. Would the Secretary of State feel it appropriate for David Nicholson’s secretary to have the following clause in his or her contract:
“That they should avoid associating themselves with recommendations critical or embarrassing to the NHS commissioning board”?
I think we would find that wholly unacceptable, yet, if I may refer Members to the ministerial code of conduct, the Secretary of State’s Parliamentary Private Secretary, who is not a member of the Government, has exactly that clause within his contract. That is something we have to change because the culture of the NHS must extend from the Department of Health to the nursing auxiliary—or health care assistant—at the bedside, and to patients so that they and those around them feel safe and able to raise complaints.
Mr Cash
Is my hon. Friend aware that Public Concern at Work, to which I referred in my witness statement on Stafford hospital, has played a big role in highlighting whistleblowing and has set up a commission to look at that issue? The outlawing of gagging clauses should apply not only on severance, but also—emphatically—when people are in post so that they can be properly protected when acting in the public interest.
Dr Wollaston
I absolutely agree. This is about starting to identify the culture and values of the people we employ in the NHS, and making it clear that not only does everyone in the NHS have a duty to bring forward concerns, but that those concerns will be welcomed and acted on. I would like everyone in the NHS to have an individual to whom they can go and feel safe in raising their concerns. I thank my hon. Friend for raising that point.
My hon. Friend the Member for Reading East (Mr Wilson) has told me that he does not feel that he has been gagged, which is great, but there is still an important point of principle: as a PPS, he is not able to speak in this debate. We want everyone, from the very top of the NHS and the Department of Health, right through to the bottom of the system, to feel that they are fully free to raise any concerns they have, wherever they may be.
After the Bristol heart scandal, whistleblower Stephen Bolsin was asked how we could prevent this from ever happening again. He said:
“Never lose sight of the patient.”
His whistleblowing cost him his career. He first raised the alarm in 1989. His work over six years to raise his concerns remains one of the single most important improvements in clinical outcomes in the NHS—that is how important whistleblowers are to our system. Yet the scandals keep happening. Would it not be a tragedy if, five years from now, we were still saying, “We need to put patients at the heart of everything we do in the NHS”? It is time to make that happen.
Mr Cash
In a conference on 4 October 2012, I understand that Sir David Nicholson said that
“the senior leadership of the NHS and I was part of it in those circumstances”
but “lost the plot”. He continued:
“We lost the reason why we were there. We got so excited about…changes”,
but he went on to acknowledge that
“on ward 10 in Mid Staffordshire Hospital really bad things were happening”.
That is the sort of admission that he had to make in those circumstances. Does my hon. Friend agree that that amounts to admitting responsibility for the system’s failure?
Stephen Barclay
I do agree with my hon. Friend, and that does seem at odds with the Government’s welcome commitment to promoting individual accountability. In response to the Robert Francis report, the Prime Minister talked about three fundamental problems with the culture of the NHS. Of course that went beyond one individual.
I am concerned about the timing of the announcement of the appointment of Barbara Hakin, a close ally of Sir David Nicholson. It is important to note that she is innocent of any allegations being made against her, but I understand that she is under investigation at the moment. The timing of the appointment, then, seems strange. I invite my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to intervene to clarify whether he was told of Barbara Hakin’s appointment prior to it being made. If he was not told, does not that say something about the power that Sir David wields within Richmond House?.
A further issue is whether Parliament knows the quantum or scale of the payments made to whistleblowers. I have repeatedly raised this matter over the last two years and was finally given a figure of £15 million paid over three years—silencing quite a lot of people. It now emerges, however, that that is not the whole story, as it does not cover payments such as the one for Gary Walker, which was paid through judicial mediation.
As seen in the NHS manual for accounts, each NHS body or trust is required to compile a register detailing all special payments made, including those through mediation. As I understand it, even the Department of Health does not know how many such payments have been made—and that applies to the Treasury, too. In a response to my parliamentary question this Tuesday, the Minister said:
“Approval has not hitherto been required by the Chancellor or the Secretary of State for Health for special severance payments made as a result of judicial mediation. However, as of 11 March”—
this Monday—
“approval will be required.”—[Official Report, 12 March 2013; Vol. 560, c. 182W.]
The position seems to be moving as of this week. Parliament does not know how much has been paid to whistleblowers, so will the Minister clarify when we will know?
In my Adjournment debate of a week last Monday, my hon. Friend the Member for Bracknell (Dr Lee) asked whether the chief executive of Mid Staffs was subject to a gagging clause. We received a welcome reassurance that we would be given an answer, but when we were on our way to the Chamber for this debate, my hon. Friend told me that he had received none. I hope that the Minister will clarify whether Mr Yeates was subject to a gagging clause.
Steve Baker
Of course I would rather that the money was spent on standards and performance and not on prosecutions, because I would rather the problems did not occur. I do not wish to lecture the right hon. Gentleman, and I feel sure he did not quite mean it this way, but if we do not intend to apply the law of corporate and individual gross negligence manslaughter, let us repeal it, or amend it so that it does not apply to the NHS. I have to say to the right hon. Gentleman that it does apply to the NHS and that in certain cases, as Francis has said, things are so bad it should be applied.
I ask the Government to look at democratic control. I am delighted that the Secretary of State is reforming the Care Quality Commission, but how can we make sure that there is more direct accountability, perhaps to the health and well-being boards, and the overview and scrutiny committees? How can we give them the power to sanction or perhaps even, through due process, dismiss a board or a chief executive?
I think here of Paul Ryan, a man with vascular disease who had lost one leg already when he found himself sick. He had four days of GP visits and spent nine hours in accident and emergency on a Friday. He was then sent home, having had an MRI scan, after which he was expecting to lose his leg on the Monday. He was told to expect a phone call, but no phone call came. The Ryans eventually called 999 and were told that it was better to get a GP. The GP arrived and called an ambulance. It took two hours for that to arrive and Paul Ryan died in the ambulance with his wife on the way to hospital.
Steve Baker
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his point, although it has been examined at length, so I do not want to go down that rabbit hole with him—I hope he will forgive me.
The post-mortem on Mr Ryan indicated that he probably would have suffered the same fate in any event, but the system let the Ryans down—Mrs Lyn Ryan made that point to me and to the local newspaper. Unfortunately, the case plays right into the fears of the public in Wycombe, because we lost our accident and emergency facility in 2005 and we recently lost our emergency medical centre. We have just had two similar repeat occurrences of the minor injuries unit failing to refer people across the car park into the excellent cardiology and stroke units. We have seen an enormous range of little problems, for example, an 85-year-old lady with dementia was sent home in a taxi at 2 am in just her hospital gown. This cannot go on, and the public’s concerns are justified. The trust is being investigated by Sir Bruce Keogh and although I have heard good reasons why its mortality levels are justified—they relate to running hospice care, in particular—this must be taken as an opportunity to improve things.
Finally, I wish to make a point on transparency. Yesterday, I spoke to Anne Eden, the chief executive of the trust. I am not going to put on the record the entire content of the conversation, but when I told her that I intended to raise this issue of corporate manslaughter on the radio this morning, I was told, in terms, “To protect the reputation of the Buckinghamshire trust, legal action would be sought.” This is a matter of public interest being raised by a Member of Parliament in good faith, but I have had to—[Interruption.] To be fair to her, she was talking about the radio. But I have had to rely on privilege to protect myself from being sued on this matter. It is not acceptable that such a matter should have to come to a Member of Parliament, simply to rely on privilege. The situation reinforces something I have experienced again and again since becoming an MP: second-hand rumours and half-truths about the state of health care in Buckinghamshire. I have encountered: people stymied; people thinking it is helpful to give half a rumour to a friend to repeat to me so that I can know how bad things are; and people’s frustration at not being able to do anything. I know that Buckinghamshire Healthcare NHS Trust is obviously close to your heart, Mr Speaker. I know that it expects to satisfy Sir Bruce Keogh, but it is really time for proper accountability and that must include the courts.