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Oral Answers to Questions
(13 years ago)
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Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con)
1. What progress has been made by the Historical Enquiries Team; and if he will make a statement.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen Paterson)
Following the devolution of policing and justice in April 2010, matters relating to the Historical Enquiries Team are the responsibility of the devolved Administration in Northern Ireland and the Minister of Justice.
Michael Ellis
I much appreciate the Minister’s response and the content of it. I welcome the progress made by the Historical Enquiries Team. May I be reassured that its case work will be completed by 2014?
Mr Paterson
I am grateful for my hon. Friend’s question. I spoke to the Chief Constable this morning, who confirmed that the team is investigating 3,268 deaths and that it is on target to finish as planned.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
The HET investigated the murder of my cousin, Kenneth Smyth, on 10 December 1971—those on the street knew who committed the murder—and Lexie Cummings was murdered on 15 June 1982. HET investigations into both cases concluded that no action should be taken. The concern is that the investigations might not have been thorough, so does the Secretary of State accept that confidence needs to be instilled in the Unionist community and that the HET therefore has considerable work to do?
Mr Paterson
I am grateful for that question. I do not entirely agree. The HET is impartial, and the latest polling commissioned on the reaction of the families is extraordinarily high: 90.5% said they were very satisfied or satisfied with the performance of the HET.
Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove) (Con)
The former Northern Ireland Secretary, the right hon. Member for Neath (Mr Hain), rightly set up the Historical Enquiries Team, but disturbing allegations were made yesterday that his computer might have been hacked. Does my right hon. Friend share those concerns, and will he assure the House that the Northern Ireland Office—
Mr Speaker
Order. The difficulty with that question, notwithstanding its notable ingenuity, is that it does not relate to the work of the Historical Enquiries Team, so we had better leave it there.
Paul Goggins (Wythenshawe and Sale East) (Lab)
Historical inquiries into police officers are conducted by the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland. Given that that is a Crown appointment, what recent discussions has the Secretary of State held with the Minister of Justice, David Ford, on the appointment of a successor to the current ombudsman, Al Hutchinson, who has made it clear that he intends to leave his post at the end of January?
Mr Paterson
The appointment of the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland is a devolved matter. I spoke to the Minister of Justice, David Ford, this morning, and we agreed to meet shortly to discuss Al Hutchinson’s replacement.
Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)
Does the Secretary of State agree that it is not for Westminster to set the agenda but that the people of Northern Ireland should decide how and when they look back, and what they look at?
Mr Paterson
Yes, my hon. Friend makes a good point. The Government and Westminster do not own the past. Contentious, difficult and fraught issues must be handled with the consensus of local people in Northern Ireland.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
Notwithstanding some of the limitations and differentials that attach to the task of the HET, it has done much good work. In the context of dealing with the past more widely, does the Secretary of State believe that more could be done to draw out the issues, patterns and lessons that can be learned from the HET’s work, which at present has gone only to the families and not to the wider public?
Mr Paterson
The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. The HET is building up an extraordinary archive of knowledge. As he knows, I am interested in opening up Government archives so that they may be assessed by professionals. Down the road, this might be a matter that is well worth discussing with the devolved Executive to see whether the HET can form the basis of an archive for historians.
Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster and Fleetwood) (Con)
2. What discussions he has had with Ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive on economic development.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen Paterson)
I meet regularly with the First Minister and Deputy First Minister to discuss matters including the Northern Ireland economy, and the Minister of State met last week with the Minister of Enterprise, Trade and Investment to consider a range of issues related to economic development.
Eric Ollerenshaw
Does my right hon. Friend agree that improved transport links between Northern Ireland and the mainland will be vital for economic development, and that the completion of the M6-Heysham port motorway link will be vital?
Mr Paterson
I admire the skill of that question, and I congratulate my hon. Friend on working for his constituents. I am glad to say that there is a sailing twice daily to Northern Ireland, and I hope the new link will boost trade between Northern Ireland and his constituents.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
Given the nature of our local economy, does the Secretary of State agree that the economic development of Northern Ireland will depend on stable industrial relations? Does he further agree that the Government must do more to deal with the genuine concerns of public sector workers with their pensions under siege, while those who have caused the economic crisis, particularly bankers, are getting away scot-free?
Mr Paterson
I thank the hon. Lady for that question. I do not entirely agree with her. The strikes today are most regrettable. They will not help a single business in Northern Ireland. They will not bring a single job to Northern Ireland. The Government are in talks with the unions and a very fair offer has been made, considering that the cost of public pensions increased by a third over the past 10 years to £32 billion. We are all in this together, and the unions should work with the Government.
Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)
In those discussions with Northern Ireland Ministers about economic development, has my right hon. Friend heard appreciation for the fact that the UK has remained outside the euro and has retained its triple A rating?
Mr Paterson
My hon. Friend is spot on. We came to power with interest rates higher than Italy’s. Thanks to the very disciplined and determined manner in which the coalition has addressed the deficit, we now have interest rates level-pegging with Germany’s. That is of benefit to every single person in Northern Ireland.
David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)
The Secretary of State will be aware of the pay-as-you-go heating oil tank developed by Kingspan Environmental in my constituency. Could the Secretary of State give us an update on the development of the enterprise zone that he piloted and tell us what benefits that will bring companies such as Kingspan in my area?
Mr Paterson
I am extremely interested in that project. In opposition, I talked about turning the whole of Northern Ireland into an enterprise zone. That resulted in the consultation earlier this year looking at ways in which we could help develop the private economy. Quite separately, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has proposed enterprise zones throughout the UK. Establishing those enterprise zones is entirely in devolved hands and I very much hope the Executive will take up the offer made in the Budget a few months ago.
Karen Lumley (Redditch) (Con)
3. What assessment he has made of the state of the economy in Northern Ireland.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen Paterson)
The Northern Ireland economy is over-dependent on public spending. The Government share a commitment with the Northern Ireland Executive to rebalance it over time by promoting investment and growing the private sector. There are many world-class Northern Ireland businesses. We need more of them.
Karen Lumley
Will the Minister confirm that last week the annual survey of hours and earnings showed that Northern Ireland earnings increased by 3.5%, compared with less than 1% on the mainland? Does he agree that rebalancing the economy and the creation of private sector jobs is the key to Northern Ireland’s recovery?
Mr Paterson
I entirely agree with my hon. Friend. One survey showed that public spending represents 77.6% of GDP in Northern Ireland. We know that that is wholly unsustainable, and we are committed to rebalancing the economy over time, working closely with the Executive.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
One of the ways of rebalancing the economy towards the private sector is to ensure that there is a flow of funds from the banking sector to private firms. What steps will the Government take to ensure that the credit easing measures announced yesterday will apply effectively in Northern Ireland, given the lack of market penetration by UK mainland banks and the high dependence on Irish banks?
Mr Paterson
I am grateful for the opportunity to clarify that the national loan guarantee scheme, which the Chancellor announced yesterday, applies to Northern Ireland. That will be of great benefit to small businesses right across Northern Ireland.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
I understand that the average private sector wage in Northern Ireland is £20,000 a year, compared with the average public sector wage of £29,000. What impact does my right hon. Friend believe that yesterday’s announcement from the Chancellor about the ability to set public sector wages locally will have on Northern Ireland?
Mr Paterson
My hon. Friend is right. There was a survey which showed a 41.5% difference between a public sector wage and a private sector wage. It shows the task we have in helping to revive the private sector and making it an attractive place for bright, enterprising young people in Northern Ireland to go into. That is very much what we would like to do.
Dr Alasdair McDonnell (Belfast South) (SDLP)
Does the Secretary of State accept that the proposed changes to public sector pension contributions will have an even more severe impact in Northern Ireland because of the shape and balance of our economy?
Mr Paterson
First, I congratulate the hon. Member on having won the election for the leadership of his party. I look forward to working with him, as the leader, as I worked with him while in opposition, and in recent months since I have been Secretary of State.
I do not entirely agree with the hon. Gentleman’s question. This is basically a good news story. People are living 10 years longer, and that has put huge pressure on the cost of pensions, which is up to £32 billion across the United Kingdom—an increase of a third over 10 years. Lord Hutton, who used to sit on the Government Benches here, came up with a sensible report, and I appeal to all those in Northern Ireland who are in trade unions to continue discussions with the Government because our offer is extremely fair.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Given the importance of the Republic of Ireland to the Northern Irish economy, and the likelihood of a break-up of the eurozone, what discussions has my right hon. Friend had with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Northern Ireland Executive about how the Northern Ireland economy could best cope with such a crisis?
Mr Paterson
I thank my hon. Friend. As he knows, the Chancellor and the Treasury are looking at all contingencies, because reports yesterday showed that the crisis in the eurozone is having a real impact on our economy. I am in regular contact with the Government in Dublin and will continue discussions.
Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
When thousands of public sector workers in Northern Ireland are worried about their pensions, with cuts to public services, and when growth figures have been so significantly downgraded, does the Secretary of State remember that, when commenting on the Budget of March 2011, he said:
“This is a Budget for growth across the whole UK in which Northern Ireland will share”?
Where did it all go wrong?
Mr Paterson
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question. He knows perfectly well where it went wrong. It went wrong when his colleagues landed us with the biggest deficit in Europe, and we are digging this country out.
Vernon Coaker
There we go—the complacent answer of someone who has no answers at all.
What little faith the Secretary of State has in the ability of the people of Northern Ireland to do their sums. I may not have taught maths, but even I know that if you take away £4 billion and return £142 million, it definitely does not add up to a fair deal for Northern Ireland. Is it not time that this Secretary of State stood up for Northern Ireland and told the Chancellor to get a proper plan for jobs and growth?
Mr Paterson
What we have done for Northern Ireland, as one of my colleagues said earlier, is keep interest rates low. That is the biggest service we could deliver to Northern Ireland, and thanks to the disciplined and determined manner in which we are addressing the deficit, we now have the lowest interest rates in western Europe. That benefits every family with a mortgage, and every business with an overdraft, in Northern Ireland.
Graeme Morrice (Livingston) (Lab)
4. What his policy is on a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Swire)
Our policy is that any legislation arising from the work of the Commission examining the case for a UK Bill of Rights would provide a vehicle through which to implement any rights specific to Northern Ireland if these can be agreed by the political parties there.
Graeme Morrice
What discussion has the Minister had with the Secretary of State for Justice on the impact that a UK Bill of Rights will have on a Northern Ireland Bill of Rights?
Mr Swire
We have regular discussions. We need to be absolutely clear that any discussion about a UK-wide Bill of Rights is distinct from a discussion about rights specific to Northern Ireland. We believe that the proper vehicle for rights specific to Northern Ireland would be a new UK Bill of Rights, if there is to be one.
Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)
The Good Friday agreement certainly calls for a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland, but does my right hon. Friend agree that while people in Northern Ireland understandably accept the right of freedom of religious expression, for example, those rights also belong in the United Kingdom?
Mr Swire
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. People in Northern Ireland enjoy the same protection as anyone in the rest of the United Kingdom. In fact, Northern Ireland has, for instance, anti-discrimination legislation that is the strongest in Europe. We need a consensus from the Executive—from the Assembly—to make sure that this matter is finally resolved to the satisfaction of all.
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
5. What assessment he has made of recent political developments in Northern Ireland; and if he will make a statement.
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr Owen Paterson)
The political situation in Northern Ireland is now more stable than for a generation, but stability is not an end in itself. It is time for the Assembly and Executive to work towards building a prosperous Northern Ireland in which everyone has a genuinely shared future.
Glyn Davies
The Northern Ireland Executive have published a draft programme for government. Will my right hon. Friend comment on this development, and does he welcome what is happening in Northern Ireland?
Mr Paterson
I am delighted that after six months the draft programme has come forward, and I very much hope that the Executive will crack on in working with the Assembly to deliver its main elements as soon as possible.
Naomi Long (Belfast East) (Alliance)
One recent political development was that the Assembly agreed unanimously that the Secretary of State should convene talks to discuss how to deal with the issue of the past. Why, in the face of that consensus, does the Secretary of State refuse to do so?
Mr Paterson
That is a little unfair. Within a couple of days, I went to talk to the Speaker of the Assembly to discuss with him how best to address this issue, and I am now going to write to the leaders of all the main parties to discuss with their representatives how to take it forward. The sad problem regarding the past is that there is no consensus that we have detected. My right hon. Friend the Minister and I have been right round Northern Ireland talking to all sorts of groups involved with the past. Sadly, there is no consensus, but I will write to the parties and we will keep talking. This is very much an issue that has to be sorted out with local parties as well.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
One thing on which the Secretary of State did take action in relation to the past was the Finucane issue. There was a widespread welcome in Northern Ireland for his decision to draw a line under that in the way that the Government did. Does he agree, therefore, that the decision of the Irish Prime Minister, Enda Kenny, to come to Northern Ireland last week and seek to reopen this issue and launch an international campaign is deeply unhelpful to north-south relations and invites comparisons with his attitude towards neutering the Smithwick inquiry, which is investigating the deaths of Royal Ulster Constabulary officers?
Mr Paterson
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his question. The review into the Finucane case is going ahead. That is the decision of this Government, and we believe that it is the right one, as we inherited an impasse from the previous Government and called for an inquiry. We know that there are strong feelings in Dublin on this issue, and I have said privately and publicly that we recognise that they will state those differences publicly. I assure the right hon. Gentleman, however, that we will not let this issue in any way damage the excellent relations we have with the Government in Dublin.
Mr Dodds
I am very grateful to the Secretary of State for that answer. On another issue, does he recognise that the decision by the Sinn Fein lord mayor of Belfast this week to refuse to hand out a Duke of Edinburgh award to a young man because he was an Army cadet is deeply unhelpful in terms of community relations; that it stands in stark contrast to the First Minister’s vision, set out on Saturday, of an inclusive, forward-looking Northern Ireland; and that Sinn Fein’s action has deeply disturbed people right across the community?
Mr Paterson
The right hon. Gentleman makes an interesting point. The armed forces are a wonderful example of people from right across the community working together. I have on the wristband of the Royal Irish Regiment, which has representatives from right across Northern Ireland and the Republic and from 11 different nations. They set an example to us all of how we can work together. [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. A lot of noise has been taking place in the Chamber. That is very unfair on the Secretary of State, who is trying to give his answers in terms that can be heard and appreciated.
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
6. What representations he has received on fuel poverty in Northern Ireland.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
7. What representations he has received on fuel poverty in Northern Ireland.
Nic Dakin (Scunthorpe) (Lab)
8. What representations he has received on fuel poverty in Northern Ireland.
The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr Hugo Swire)
I attended the Opposition day debate on pensioners and winter fuel payments on 22 November. The matter was also discussed on 31 August, when I met the Minister for Welfare Reform and Northern Ireland Ministers to discuss this and other matters. Measures to tackle fuel poverty in Northern Ireland are the responsibility of Executive Ministers.
Alex Cunningham
I understand that the proportion of homes in Northern Ireland that are in fuel poverty is higher than in Scotland, England and Wales. The Housing Executive said that almost 50% of households cannot afford to heat their homes this winter. What are the Government going to do to help the people of Northern Ireland, and do they really think that it is enough?
Mr Swire
The figures are startling for Northern Ireland. These are devolved matters, and I understand that the Executive are tackling energy efficiency, maximising incomes through benefit uptake campaigns, and achieving affordable energy prices. They are also doing a lot. The Housing Executive is doing a lot about housing and the hon. Gentleman will be pleased by the announcement of £142 million over three years for Northern Ireland. Perhaps some of that could be spent on improving the housing stock.
Nick Smith
Like Northern Ireland, Wales has higher than average fuel poverty. Are the Government promoting dialogue between the devolved Administrations so that best practice and solutions that work can be shared?
Mr Swire
I remind the hon. Gentleman that, in 2004, his colleague the right hon. Member for Warley (Mr Spellar) had a target to eradicate fuel poverty in vulnerable households by 2010. The current Department for Social Development strategy states bluntly that this target will not be achieved. In fact, fuel poverty increased in Northern Ireland from 146,000 in 2004 to 302,000 in 2009.
Mr Swire
The hon. Gentleman will know that there are several schemes in Northern Ireland, such as warm homes, warm homes plus, the pilot boiler replacement scheme, the introduction of oil stamps, and the Housing Executive itself. Contrary to what Opposition Members say, the Government have maintained the winter fuel allowance and chosen to keep the higher cold weather payment allowances, which is more than the Labour Government would have done, had they won the last general election, which, mercifully, they did not.
Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that the Chancellor’s announcement yesterday stopping the inexorable rise of fuel costs will be most welcome to people suffering from fuel poverty in Northern Ireland, and in Hastings and Rye?
Mr Swire
My hon. Friend is right. The Chancellor’s announcement deferring the increase from 1 January to 1 August is very welcome, as indeed is the further increase. She will also want to welcome the increases in pensions, which I believe represent the biggest increase in pensions since 1908. That will also help the most vulnerable in society.
Mr Peter Bone (Wellingborough) (Con)
Does the Minister share my concern about the Opposition Whips’ effort to flood the Order Paper, with a third of the questions on it being identical, so that Members––
Mr Speaker
Order. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman, but that has nothing to do with fuel poverty in Northern Ireland. I call Charlie Elphicke.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
Does the Minister share my concern that some 70% of homes in Northern Ireland are heated with heating oil? Is not the priority to get them connected so that people can access a wider, more competitive market to bring prices down?
Mr Swire
My hon. Friend is right. That is the vulnerability of the market in Northern Ireland, which is why we welcome discussions such as those being undertaken on the undersea energy grid by the Minister, Arlene Foster, on the isles project, and on fracking, which could have a serious effect, in a beneficial way, on energy provision in Northern Ireland.
Ian Paisley (North Antrim) (DUP)
Eighty-two per cent. of homes across rural Ulster rely on the most expensive form of heating oil to heat their homes. The councils in Northern Ireland, the Assembly and the Northern Ireland parties represented in this House are united in their support for the higher form of winter fuel allowance in Northern Ireland. How is the Secretary of State representing that united political will to the Cabinet?
Mr Swire
I do not want to be cynical about the previous Government––not unless I have to be––but I draw the hon. Gentleman’s attention to the fact that they raised these allowances two years running up to the election but that their plans, had they won the election, were to reduce them. We could have stuck with those figures. We did not. We chose to increase the high level of the cold weather payment to the benefit of all who are most vulnerable.
Stephen Pound (Ealing North) (Lab)
In wishing the Minister of State the very happiest of birthdays today, may I remind him that politicians are often accused of giving warm words and cold comfort? Bearing in mind the uniquely disadvantaged position of the fuel poor in Northern Ireland, will he at least approach his colleagues in the Treasury for an uprating of the winter fuel allowance this year in view of the extremely inclement weather forecast?
Mr Swire
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman. I just explained to the previous questioner that we have chosen to increase allowances in a way that the previous Government were simply not going to. The cold facts are there in the spending commitment. We have nothing to apologise for; indeed, we have plenty to be proud of.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
Q1. If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 30 November.
The Prime Minister (Mr David Cameron)
I am sure the whole House will wish to join me in paying tribute to Rifleman Sheldon Steel from 5th Battalion The Rifles. He was a highly respected soldier who had achieved a great deal and shown much potential during his time with the Army. At this very sad time, our thoughts should be with his family, his friends and his colleagues. His courage and his dedication will never be forgotten by our nation.
This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. In addition to my duties in the House, I shall have further such meetings later today.
Nick Smith
I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to that brave serviceman, who gave his life for our country. Our thoughts are with his family at this very difficult time.
Blaenau Gwent, my constituency, has high unemployment but great potential, and it would benefit greatly from £200 million of private sector-led investment in motor sport. Will the Prime Minister provide support for enhanced capital allowances for enterprise zones in Wales, including Blaenau Gwent, as well as in England?
The Prime Minister
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that question. First, may I congratulate him and the other 37 Members who have opted to grow additional facial hair in this month of November? It is a very good way—[Interruption.] For those who are capable of doing so, it is a very good way of raising the profile of that important illness, prostate cancer.
We are committed to providing enhanced capital allowances, and discussions are ongoing with devolved Administrations about enhanced capital allowances in their enterprise zones. We will do what we can in Blaenau Gwent, as elsewhere, and I should add that we are electrifying the line to Cardiff and looking for improvements on the M4. All the announcements that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor made yesterday will have consequentials for additional spending on infrastructure in Wales.
Richard Drax (South Dorset) (Con)
I am confident that the Prime Minister, like me, will praise the courage and professionalism of the Portland search and rescue helicopter. I am confident also that he will share with me the alarm, anger and disbelief of my constituents and many colleagues with coastal constituencies that it is to be axed. Will he meet me and a small delegation from South Dorset to discuss that urgent matter before a disastrous mistake is made?
The Prime Minister
I am very happy to meet my hon. Friend. I know how important it is that we have effective search and rescue facilities off our coast, and I know about the incredibly good work that they do. What the Government are looking at is the best way to deliver those services, including how they should be paid for, and it is important that that work goes ahead.
Edward Miliband (Doncaster North) (Lab)
May I join the Prime Minister in paying tribute to Rifleman Sheldon Steel, from 5th Battalion The Rifles? He served with huge commitment and courage, and our deepest condolences are with his family and friends.
In June at Prime Minister’s questions, the Prime Minister praised the head teacher of Vaynor First school in Redditch for refusing to strike. Today, she has closed her school. She says:
“This has been the most difficult decision of my professional life… The difference in the summer was that I had faith in the Government… I have not seen any progress so I have decided…to strike.”
Why does the Prime Minister think that so many decent, hard-working public sector workers, many of whom have never been on strike before, feel that the Government simply are not listening?
The Prime Minister
The reason why people are going on strike is that they object to the reforms that we are making to public sector pensions, but I believe that those reforms are absolutely essential. The Labour former Work and Pensions Secretary, Lord Hutton, said that
“it is hard to imagine a better deal than this.”
What I would say, above all, to people who are on strike today is that they are going on strike at a time when negotiations are still under way. The right hon. Gentleman refers to what was said in June. Let me remind him what he said on 30 June:
“These strikes are wrong at a time when negotiations are…going on”.
Why has he changed his mind?
Mr Speaker
Order. I say to Members engaged in orchestrated barracking that it is very tedious and very juvenile, from whichever side it comes. The public do not want to hear it, and nor do I. The Leader of the Opposition will be heard, as will the Prime Minister, and that is all there is to it.
Edward Miliband
The reason public sector workers do not think the Prime Minister is listening is that the Government declared negotiations at an end four weeks ago. They said that they had made their final offer. They have not even met the unions for four weeks, since 2 November. What has he gone around saying to people? He has gone around saying that he is privately delighted that the unions have walked into his trap. That is the reality. He has been spoiling for this fight. The reason people have lost faith is that he is not being straight with them. Will he admit that 800,000 low-paid workers on £15,000 a year or less are facing an immediate tax rise of 3% on his pension plan?
The Prime Minister
I know that the right hon. Gentleman’s entire party is paid for by the unions, but I must say that what he has just told the House is extraordinary and completely and utterly untrue. The fact is there were meetings with the trade unions yesterday, there will be meetings with them tomorrow and there will be meetings on Friday. The negotiations are under way. Let me repeat what he said in June. He said that it is wrong to strike
“at a time when negotiations are…going on”.
Yet today he backs the strikes. Why? Because he is irresponsible, left-wing and weak.
Edward Miliband
The difference is that, unlike the Prime Minister, I am not going to demonise the dinner lady, the cleaner or the nurse, people who earn in a week what the Chancellor pays for his annual skiing holiday—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. Members on both sides of the House need to calm down. If senior Members of the House think that it is a laughing matter, let me tell them that it is not. The public would like to see some decent behaviour and a bit of leadership on these matters, and so would I.
Edward Miliband
The Prime Minister is the one—he did not deny it—who went around saying that he is privately delighted because the unions have walked into his trap. That is the reality. The truth is that it is not only public sector workers who are paying for the failure of his plan, but private sector workers. Will he confirm that, as a result of the cuts to tax credits announced yesterday, a family on the minimum wage, taking home £200 a week, will lose a week and a half’s wages?
The Prime Minister
First, let me be absolutely clear—[Hon. Members: “Answer.”] I will answer the question—
Mr Speaker
Order. Let me say again that the Prime Minister’s answer, however long it takes, will be heard. That is the principle of democracy. The Leader of the Opposition and the Prime Minister must be heard.
The Prime Minister
Let me be clear that I do not welcome these strikes one bit. I think that we have made a very reasonable and very fair offer to public sector workers, and that is why the former Labour Pensions Secretary said that
“it is hard to imagine a better deal.”
I do not want to see any strikes. I do not want to see schools close. I do not want to see problems at our borders, but this Government have to make responsible decisions.
Let me just remind the right hon. Gentleman and the House of the facts about public sector pensions. Anyone earning less than £15,000 on a full-time equivalent salary will not see any increase in the contributions they have to make. In terms of the reforms we are making, a nurse retiring on a salary of just over £34,000 today would get a pension of £17,000, but in future she would get over £22,000. A teacher retiring on a salary of £37,000 would have got £19,000, but will now get £25,000. These are fair changes. I will tell the House why they are fair. We rejected the idea that we should level down public sector pensions. We think that public sector pensions should be generous, but as people live longer it is only right and fair that they should make greater contributions. What we see today on the Opposition Benches is a party that is in the pocket of the trade union leaders, that has to ask their permission before crossing a picket line and that take the irresponsible side of trade union leaders who have called their people out on strike when negotiations are under way.
Now let me answer his question about the low-paid—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. I remind the Prime Minister gently that a large number of Members are listed on the Order Paper—Back Benchers, whom I want to hear and he wants to hear. A brief sentence will suffice.
The Prime Minister
I will wait for his next trade union-sponsored question, and then give my answer.
Edward Miliband
I am proud that millions of hard-working people in this country support the Labour party—better that than millions from Lord Ashcroft.
The problem is that the Prime Minister does not understand his own policy. He does not understand that there are part-time workers earning less than £21,000 who will be hit—800,000 low-paid, part-time workers, 90% of whom are women, will pay more. He denies that, but it is true. That is the reality.
Edward Miliband
The Prime Minister sits there shaking his head. He does not understand his own policy, and of course, he could not explain or justify what he did to everyone on low pay with the miserable deal cooked up with the Deputy Prime Minister to cut £1 billion from tax credits in the autumn statement yesterday. They have no explanation for why they are doing that—[Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. I say to the hon. Member for Cannock Chase (Mr Burley) that I do not require any assistance from him. The Leader of the Opposition will come to a question.
Edward Miliband
Let me try the Prime Minister on another matter. What will unemployment be at the time of the next autumn statement on the Office for Budget Responsibility forecast?
The Prime Minister
If we compare the end of this Parliament with the start of this Parliament, the Office for Budget Responsibility figures—let us remember that the OBR is independent, but when the right hon. Gentleman was sitting in the Treasury, the figures were fiddled by Ministers and advisers, and that no longer happens—show that 500,000 more people will be in jobs, 90,000 fewer people will be on the claimant count, and the unemployment rate will be 7.2% instead of 8.1%. That is the OBR’s forecast; it is not fiddled. The OBR is independent; and that is what the figures show.
Let me answer the right hon. Gentleman’s question, as I was not able to do so earlier, about helping the poorest people in our country. It is his party that got rid of the 10p tax—the biggest attack on the working poor. It is this Government who have taken 1.1 million people out of tax, who froze the council tax, cut the petrol tax, introduced free nursery care for two, three and four-year-olds, and are putting up the child tax credit by £390 this year and next. That is a record to be proud of, instead of the right hon. Gentleman’s appalling record of attacking the working poor.
Edward Miliband
With child poverty going up as a result of the autumn statement yesterday, the truth is that the Prime Minister could not answer the question because he is too embarrassed by the truth—[Interruption.] The Education Secretary should calm down. He tells children to behave; why does he not behave himself?
The Prime Minister is too embarrassed. There are 2.8 million people out of work according to the forecast of the Office for Budget Responsibility. He is another Conservative Prime Minister for whom unemployment is a price worth paying. Because he is failing on unemployment and growth, he is failing on borrowing. He told the CBI conference last year that, no ifs or buts, by 2015
“we will have balanced the books.”
Will he now admit that on the central test he set himself, he has failed?
The Prime Minister
The right hon. Gentleman complains about the level of borrowing, but his answer is to borrow even more. That is the utter illiteracy. Let me tell him what we are doing. Because we have a plan to meet the mandate and to meet the test set out by the Chancellor in his emergency Budget, we have some of the lowest interest rates in Europe. That is right; for every percentage point they went up under Labour, that would be another £1,000 on a family mortgage, another £7 billion out of business and another £21 billion on our national debt. That is what we would get under Labour and that is why it is this Government who will take the country through this storm.
Edward Miliband
The Prime Minister is borrowing an extra £158 billion to pay for his economic failure. The truth is that his plan has failed. He refuses to change course and he is making working families pay the price. At the very least, we now know that he will never, ever be able to say again, “We’re all in this together.”
The Prime Minister
The leader of the Labour party has taken sides today: he is on the side of the trade union leader who wants strikes and not negotiations and he is on the side of people who want to disrupt our schools, disrupt our borders and disrupt our country. And when it comes to borrowing, he cannot even bring himself to welcome the fact that there are low interest rates.
Let me tell him this. The shadow Chancellor—[Interruption.] Mr Speaker, they are all shouting in unison—[Interruption.] Or should that have been they are all shouting on behalf of Unison? I am not quite clear. Let me remind the House of what the shadow Chancellor said about low interest rates. He said that long-term interest rates are
“the simplest measure of monetary and fiscal policy credibility”.
That is what he said, and that is what this Government are delivering.
We are being tested by these difficult economic times. We will meet that test by getting on top of our debt and getting on top of our deficit. The Leader of the Opposition is being tested too, and he is showing that he is weak, left-wing and irresponsible.
Mr Speaker
Order. I assume that Government Back Benchers have some interest in listening to Jo Swinson.
Jo Swinson
Q2. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would like to associate myself with the words of condolence from the Prime Minister and Leader of the Opposition.Ten years on from the military intervention, more than 3 million girls in Afghanistan are now in school. With the Bonn conference on Monday, will the Prime Minister send a clear message that the rights of those girls should not be traded away in a false choice between women’s rights and security? The evidence shows that women’s involvement in post-conflict resolution is essential for stability.
The Prime Minister
First of all, may I wish my hon. Friend and everyone in Scotland or who is Scottish a very happy St Andrew’s day? She is absolutely right to talk about women’s rights in Afghanistan. All too often, we talk about security without talking about some of the things that that security is making possible. It is the case that whereas in 2001 there were fewer than 1 million children in school in Afghanistan, none of them girls, today there are 6 million children regularly in school, 2 million of whom are girls. All those of us who have been to Afghanistan and met women MPs and other leaders in that country who want to stand up for women’s rights know what an incredible job those people are doing, and we are on their side.
Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
Q13. According to the Office for Budget Responsibility, half a million more people will be on the dole in 2013 than previously thought. That is a terrible human cost, but how much more will be lost in tax and paid out in benefits as a result of his Chancellor’s economic failure?
The Prime Minister
What the OBR shows is that by 2015 we are going to have half a million more people in jobs, fewer people on the claimant count and a lower unemployment rate. But there is a serious point here, because the figures do show a sharp decline in public sector employment. That is shown by the figures. There is a much bigger increase in private sector employment.
What I would say to the Opposition—in fact, to everyone in the House—is that if we want to reduce the amount of unemployment from the public sector, we have to reform welfare, which they oppose, we have to freeze public sector pay, which they oppose, and we have to reform public sector pensions, where they are on the side of the irresponsible trade union leaders.
Mr Laurence Robertson (Tewkesbury) (Con)
Q3. Is the Prime Minister aware that in the last financial year, taxpayers paid more than £113 million to trade unions by way of paid staff time and direct grants? In the light of today’s disruption to hospitals and schools, is it not time to review that situation?
The Prime Minister
I think it is time. I do not think full-time trade unionists working in the public sector on trade union business rather than serving the public is right, and we will put that to an end. That is absolutely the case, and the evidence today makes that case even stronger.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
Q4. Why are the Government freezing working tax credit, which helps the lowest paid workers, including those whose wages are too low for them even to pay tax, to make work pay?
The Prime Minister
As the hon. Lady knows, what we are doing with tax credits is that there will be a £255 increase this year, which is the largest ever increase in child tax credit, and there will be a further £135 increase next year—a 5.2% increase. I think that is the right increase in child tax credit. Helping those families, genuinely helping people to get out and stay out of poverty, helping on nursery education and helping to get low paid people out of tax is even more valuable.
Jacob Rees-Mogg (North East Somerset) (Con)
As the United Kingdom’s borders are being kept open today by patriotic volunteers, will the Prime Minister consider imitating the robust action of the late US President Ronald Reagan in relation to recalcitrant air traffic controllers?
The Prime Minister
I thank all those people, including a number from No. 10 Downing street, who are helping to keep our borders open and to make sure that Heathrow and Gatwick are working properly. Let me report to the House that the evidence so far suggests that about 40% of schools are open; less than a third of the civil service is striking; on our borders, the early signs are that the contingency measures are minimising the impact; we have full cover in terms of ambulance services; and only 18 out of 900 jobcentres have closed. Despite the disappointment of the Labour party, which supports irresponsible and damaging strikes, it looks like something of a damp squib.
Mark Hendrick (Preston) (Lab/Co-op)
Q5. May I ask the Prime Minister if he came into politics to sack three quarters of a million civil servants and public sector workers, most of whom are women and most of whom have families?
The Prime Minister
I came into politics to try to improve the welfare of people in our country. The fact is that, at the end of this public sector pension reform, those people working in the public sector will have far better pensions than most people in the private sector, who are contributing that money to them. [Interruption.] I know the Leader of the Opposition and the shadow Chancellor are paid to ask questions; they do not have to wave as well. [Interruption.] If they give the money back to the unions, I will calm down.
Chris Kelly (Dudley South) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend join me in condemning the outrageous attack on our embassy in Tehran yesterday and in paying tribute to our diplomatic staff serving in such difficult environments with such distinction?
The Prime Minister
I certainly join my hon. Friend in doing that, and I am sure the whole House will join me in praising the incredible devotion of our staff in the foreign and diplomatic service, who often face great dangers, as they did yesterday in Tehran. I chaired a meeting of Cobra yesterday and another one this morning and spoke to our ambassador about the safety of his staff. That should be our No. 1 concern—their safety, their security and making sure those are maintained. After that, we will consider taking some very tough action in response to that completely appalling and disgraceful behaviour by the Iranians.
Mr Graham Allen (Nottingham North) (Lab)
Q6. What plans he has to change the machinery of Government to facilitate the implementation of early intervention policies; and if he will make a statement.
The Prime Minister
I lead a Committee of Cabinet Ministers that looks specifically at family issues, including the importance of early intervention, which is central to what the Government are trying to achieve. We believe that if we change the life chances of the least well off, we have a much better chance of genuinely lifting young people out of poverty and keeping them out of poverty. I take a close interest—as do my right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for Education and the Chancellor of the Exchequer—in the hon. Gentleman’s work, and in the real difference that he has made in prioritising early intervention in our country.
Mr Allen
I thank all three party leaders for their consistent support for early intervention and their generous welcome for my two reports. May I ask the Prime Minister to make early intervention in the lives of babies, children and young people a theme for all Departments in the next comprehensive spending review, so that not only will all children be able to make the best of their life chances, but Government and the taxpayer will be able to reduce the massive costs of failure—including educational underachievement, 120,000 dysfunctional families, summers of discontent, and many, many lifetimes wasted on benefits?
The Prime Minister
That is a very sensible suggestion. I think that we can look at it in the context of the next spending round, but I do not even want to wait for the next spending round. That is why the family Committee that I lead, and of which the Deputy Prime Minister is a member, is considering how we can make effective action such as intervention in the lives of the 120,000 neediest and most broken families. Government—all the different Departments—spend a huge amount of money on those families, but we are not satisfied that that money has been spent on actually intervening in the lives of those families, and trying to turn them around in order to solve their very real problems. We have a programme for doing that now, but I hope that the hon. Gentleman will continue with his very positive work.
Andrew Rosindell (Romford) (Con)
Q7. The Prime Minister will be aware that there remain 16 British overseas territories around the world where the Union flag still flies proudly. Will he pledge that Her Majesty’s Government will protect, defend and cherish the loyal subjects of all those territories?
The Prime Minister
I can happily give my hon. Friend that guarantee. Let me add that the overseas territories will remain British for as long as the people of those territories want to maintain their special relationship with us, and that the Union flag will continue to fly over the Governors’ residences. We are increasing our assistance to overseas territories—my hon. Friend will be familiar with what we are doing in St Helena with the airport—and, of course, next year is the anniversary of the liberation of the Falkland Islands, which will be a moment for genuine celebration in all overseas territories.
Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)
Q8. My constituent Jackie contacted me to ask how she is to manage with a 3% tax on her pension, no pay increase until 2013, and rocketing fuel and food bills. How is she to feed her family? Why is the Prime Minister making people like Jackie pay for his Government’s failure?
The Prime Minister
The fact is, I am afraid, that the whole country is having to pay for the failure of the last Government to get on top of debt and deficit, but what I would say to the hon. Lady’s constituent is that we are trying to help. That is why we are freezing council tax, cutting petrol tax, taking 1.1 million of the poorest people out of tax altogether, and increasing child tax credit in the way that I described earlier. We will continue to take all those steps, but I would say to the hon. Lady’s constituent—as I would say to all others—that the most dangerous thing that we could do now is lose control of our debts and see interest rates go up. When this Government came to power, our interest rates were at the same level as Italy’s. Today, Italy’s interest rates are 5% higher. If ours were at the same level, we would see higher mortgage costs and businesses going bust, and we would have a real problem in our country. That, however, is the policy of the Labour party.
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
Q9. What message has the Prime Minister today for the thousands of people who run and work in small businesses in my constituency, who work tremendously hard to keep those businesses and the local economy going, and who, in some cases, can barely afford to make provision for their own pensions?
The Prime Minister
The hon. Lady is entirely right. This Government are squarely on the side of people who work hard, play by the rules, and want to do the right things for their families. Today I would say to all those people “Thank you for what you do to contribute to public sector pensions that are far more generous than anything that you are able to afford. For our part, we promise to ensure that public sector pensions remain strong but are affordable.” What is so notable about today is that the Labour party has taken the side of trade union leaders who want to disrupt our country.
Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
Q10. With taxpayers set to pay up to £100 million to BAE Systems to make workers redundant, is the Prime Minister aware that £100 million would pay for five new Hawk planes to be built at Brough for our Red Arrows? Is that not a better use of £100 million?
The Prime Minister
I strongly support British Aerospace and all that it does. It is an extraordinarily strong British company. It has the full backing of the British Government and an enormous order book from us in terms of the strategic defence review. It also has massive backing from us in selling Hawk aircraft, Typhoons and Eurofighters all over the world to countries that need them. Clearly at Brough there have been issues and difficulties. That is why we have put in an enterprise zone, and we will do everything we can to help those people and help that company.
Mr Mark Spencer (Sherwood) (Con)
Q11. Does the Prime Minister share my belief, and until recently the belief of the Leader of the Opposition, that now is not the time to strike, before negotiations have been completed?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. Just in case anyone did not get it the first time, let me say it again:
“These strikes are wrong at a time when negotiations are…going on”.
Negotiations are going on, so the Leader of the Opposition should think the strikes are wrong. He does not think that they are wrong, because he is in the pocket of the trade union leaders.
Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
In every city and village in the country, home helps, carers, nurses and teachers are on strike for the very first time in their lives. These hard-working people—
Mr Roy
Well, we hear laughter from the Government Benches, but this is no laughing matter to hard-working families. Are these hard-working people out-of-touch left-wing trade union militants, as demonised by the two parties on the Government Benches, or are they men and women who have said to the Government, “Enough is enough”?
The Prime Minister
I know that people feel strongly about this, but we have a responsibility to deliver an affordable public sector pension system. We have rejected the idea of levelling down public sector pensions. What we will deliver on public sector pensions is a generous and fair offer that will give public sector pensioners, unlike others in our country, a defined benefit system. That is why Lord Hutton says that this is an incredibly generous offer. What a pity it is that the Labour party has left reality and will not back that view.
Andrew Bingham (High Peak) (Con)
Q12. The Prime Minister will know that I recently held a small businesses event in my constituency, and many of the businesses that attended complained bitterly about the red tape and bureaucracy that they have to jump through to deal with public bodies. What message can he send to these businesses, as we look to them to help rebuild the economy, about getting rid of some of this obstructive bureaucratic nonsense?
The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is absolutely right to raise this subject. It is why we have introduced the red tape challenge, so that all these rules are published on line and businesses and individuals can tell us which ones can be scrapped without harming public safety. At the same time, we have the one-in, one-out rule so that Ministers cannot introduce a new regulation until they have scrapped an existing one. This Government are determined to scrap unnecessary regulation and to help small businesses to employ more people in our country.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
At the last spending review, the Prime Minister said that the £110 rise in child tax credits would have an impact on child poverty. Now that he has taken away that rise and is freezing working tax credit, can he say how many more children will be in poverty in the coming year?
The Prime Minister
What we are doing in terms of child tax credit is that it is going to be £390 higher than at the time of the last election. That is a £255 increase this year, which is the largest ever increase in child tax credit. We are adding a further £135 next year—an increase of 5.2%. That is what is happening on child tax credit. Let me make this additional point. If the pension is increased, we see child poverty figures go up, under the definition used by the Labour party. I think that it is right that we increase the pension; I do not think that we harm the life chances of children by giving pensioners what we have given, which is a record cash increase in pensions next year.
Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con)
Q14. May I ask the Prime Minister to ensure that this House remains a free and democratic institution, accountable only to voters? Does he share my indignation that some Members had to ask permission from the GMB to be here today? [Interruption.]
Mr Speaker
Order. There is a matter of basic courtesy here. The question from the hon. Lady should be heard. I think that she has completed her question, but it really is a lesson for the future. When questions are being asked, they should be heard with courtesy, and when the answers are given, whatever Members think of them, they should be heard with courtesy.
The Prime Minister
It is genuinely baffling to people that somebody who said that they would not back strike action while negotiations were under way has come to the House today to speak on behalf of trade union leaders. I want to say that it is a flashback to Neil Kinnock, but even Kinnock was not as bad as that.
Owen Smith (Pontypridd) (Lab)
Does the Prime Minister think it fair that the Chancellor yesterday decided to take just £300 million extra from the banks, and £1.3 billion from working families in this country? Is that a fair distribution?
The Prime Minister
What the Chancellor announced yesterday was that we will take £2.5 billion off the banks, not through a one-off bonus tax one year, but every year. It is this Government who are properly putting a tax on the banks, whereas the Labour party, year after year, gave knighthoods to Fred Goodwin, did not regulate the banks or tax them properly, and gave us the biggest boom and the biggest bust, from which we are having to recover.
Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire) (LD)
Q15. While I welcome the reduction in corporation tax, which will encourage the businesses affected to expand, 90% of the businesses in my constituency are not incorporated and will not benefit from the tax reduction. Will the Prime Minister ensure that in the spring Budget those businesses are given similar tax incentives to ensure that they grow to their full potential, in the economy and the communities they serve?
The Prime Minister
May I again praise the hon. Gentleman for the magnificent specimen lurking underneath his nose? We will not wait until the Budget to help those small businesses: we have already extended the rate relief freeze for small businesses, and the national loan guarantee scheme, which will help small businesses to access credit, will be up and running soon.
Mr Speaker
Order. We now come to the statement from the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General. I appeal to right hon. and hon. Members leaving the Chamber to do so quickly and quietly, so that the Minister can deliver his statement and the House can listen to and hear it.
Industrial Action
(13 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General (Mr Francis Maude)
With permission, I would like to update the House on today's public sector strike action, which is about long overdue reforms to public sector pensions.
I start by thanking the large majority of public servants who have turned up for work today as normal. The low response to the call for strike action reflects their dedication to their public service calling. It also reflects the recognition that taking strike action while negotiations continue on an almost daily basis is nothing short of irresponsible, inappropriate and untimely. It is plain wrong.
This strike is about long-overdue reforms to public sector pensions. I repeat that we want public sector workers to continue to have access to pension schemes that are among the very best available. They will continue to be defined benefit schemes, delivering a guaranteed pension, index-linked and inflation-proofed. Such schemes have all but disappeared from the rest of the work force.
Reform, however, is urgently needed. The cost of public service pensions has increased by a third in the past 10 years to £32 billion a year, and the Office for Budget Responsibility forecasts that, without reform, spending on public sector pensions will rise by nearly £7 billion over the next five years. Life expectancy is rising, and people are living longer, so in future people will work longer, for a better balance between life spent in work and life in retirement. Most public sector staff, except the lowest-paid, will pay more for a fairer balance between what they pay towards their pensions and what other taxpayers pay.
During the discussions, we have been willing to listen to the concerns of staff, and we have responded. On 2 November, after months of negotiations, my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary set out in Parliament a revised offer that was more generous by 8%. In addition, we have made sure that any public sector workers within 10 years of retirement will be able to retire on their current terms. We are also protecting the lower paid. Public sector staff earning less than a full-time equivalent of £15,000 will not have to pay anything extra at all, and there will be limited increases and contributions for those earning, on a full-time basis, between £15,000 and £21,000. We think that that is fair.
The offer on the table is, by any standards, a generous one. It is a deal that most people in the private sector could only dream of being offered. Most staff on low and middle incomes will retire on a pension as good as what they expect today, and for many it will be even better.
The changes to the pension schemes will particularly protect women, who form the majority of the public sector work force, many of whom are on lower pay. A move from final salary schemes to career average will secure fairer outcomes for lower-paid workers, most of whom are women. The new schemes will also protect future generations from an unsustainable burden placed on them by unaffordable public sector pensions.
It is simply not true that the Government are not negotiating. I was surprised to hear the Leader of the Opposition repeating that claim today. Only yesterday there were discussions with the civil service unions on the civil service pension scheme; tomorrow there will be discussions with the teaching unions, and on Friday with the health unions. After the new offer was made on 2 November, it was agreed, at the request of the TUC, that discussions would continue on the schemes—so it is within the sectoral schemes that the discussions are taking place, at the specific request of the TUC. In addition, there are frequent—[Interruption.] The shadow Chancellor asks from a sedentary position whether we have met the TUC. The answer is yes. [Hon. Members: “You!”] So, contrary to—[Hon. Members: “You! You!”] I will say to—
Mr Speaker
Order. The right hon. Gentleman will resume his seat. The Minister has, perhaps understandably, been provoked into a response, but questions, of whatever kind, relating to his statement must follow the statement. We cannot have constant sedentary interjections. I appeal to Members to stop doing that, and if it happens, I suggest that the Minister blithely ignore it.
Mr Maude
As always, Mr Speaker, I will do as you encourage me to.
Contrary to claims being made this morning by trade union leaders—and by the Leader of the Opposition and the shadow Chancellor—talks are very much alive. They are intensive and they are making good progress. I deeply regret the misleading claims to the contrary.
All this underlines how indefensible today’s strike is while talks at scheme level are moving forward. It is inappropriate, untimely and irresponsible. The ballots for strike action, particularly in the bigger unions, had a turnout of between a quarter and a third—a very low turnout indeed. Our latest data suggest that, as of 11 am today, 135,000 civil servants—well below a third, indeed not much more than a quarter, of civil servants—were on strike. Most civil servants are going to work today as normal.
We have put in place rigorous contingency plans to ensure that, as far as possible, essential public services are maintained during such periods of industrial action. I have an update on what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister said a few minutes ago: only 16 of the 930 jobcentres are now closed to the public, and UK borders are open and operating with only very minor delays in some seaports. In the airports services are being maintained. I pay tribute to all the dedicated people who are keeping those borders both secure and open.
Across the other sectors the impact has been varied. According to estimates early this morning, across all state-funded schools in England, some 60% are closed but a great many are open or partially open. I am very grateful to those who have worked hard to keep their schools open across the country—head teachers, governors, support staff and teachers, all of whom may have concerns about their own pensions but have chosen to put the needs of pupils and parents above their own to minimise the impact of this strike. I deeply regret the fact that there will have been disruption to the lives of so many hard-working parents across the country, and to hard-working pupils, many of whom are facing mock exams in the near future; they need a closed school like they need a hole in the head.
Overall, the national health service is coping well with industrial action. Early indications are that the strike is having only a minor impact on patient services, and that has largely been mitigated by robust contingency planning. Several trusts have been forced to make cancellations of elective surgery, which is deeply unfortunate and I deeply regret it, but many organisations in the health service are reporting that they are operating at near normal levels. There is some disruption taking place in the local government sector, but councils have worked hard to secure essential services in areas such as dementia care and homelessness, to protect some of the most vulnerable members of the public from the most serious potential impacts of strikes.
Let me finish by saying this: I have huge respect for the dedicated women and men who keep our public services running. Their work is demanding, essential and highly valued. They deserve to be able to retire on decent pensions. Our reforms will ensure that their pension schemes will be decent, and that they can be sustained for the future. They deserve no less.
Jon Trickett (Hemsworth) (Lab)
I thank the Minister for his courtesy in letting me have advance sight of the statement, which I received 20 minutes ago.
Clearly, the whole House regrets that industrial action is taking place today and that millions of families now face disruption to the services on which they rely and depend. Strikes are always a sign that negotiations have broken down, and if a deal is to be reached it is essential that both sides—let us be clear that that includes the unions, but the bulk of the responsibility lies with the Government—get around the negotiating table and show willingness to give ground.
Is it not true that the Government bear the greatest burden of responsibility for what is happening today? We accept that there is a need to continue the reform of public service pensions, which we in fact began when we were in office. We found the unions to be tough but ultimately reasonable negotiators. and we achieved a settlement without any industrial action.
The Government refer to Lord Hutton. He provided rigorous analysis of the current situation, laid out the ground rules for the negotiations, and persuasively argued that there was a need for further change. For example, he was right when he suggested we should look again at career average schemes, which might be fairer in many cases.
The unions need to show they accept the need for change, and indeed they have said they accept the continued need for negotiation and further change. The Government arbitrarily announced a 3p in the pound levy on the incomes of public sector workers, but this imposition has nothing whatever to do with Hutton. Is it not the case that the money that will be garnered from that 3p is not going to the pension schemes but is instead going into the pockets of the Chancellor of the Exchequer? The Minister says negotiations are ongoing, but will he tell us whether or not the 3p imposition, which is a form of tax on public sector workers, is negotiable? It clearly is not in the Government’s mind. Will he also respond to the question about when he last met the unions as part of the negotiation, and when Treasury Ministers last met them, as the leader of Unison said today he had not met them at all since 2 November? It is remarkable that the Government can say negotiations are ongoing when the key Departments have never met the trade unions.
At the core of today’s industrial action are 750,000 low-paid workers. These people provide daily services to all of us and to all the people we serve in our constituencies. They are mainly women, they are almost exclusively low paid, and they provide the essential services on which our whole country depends: they are school dinner ladies, teachers, nurses and others. The House must not underestimate the difficult decisions each of those people must make in deciding whether to take action. Many of them never thought, when they entered the service of the public, that they would have to go on strike. It is a difficult personal decision for each of them, and I assure the House that they take it only with the greatest reluctance. They feel a burning sense of injustice that, low paid though they are, an additional burden is now being imposed on them. Equally, they face a significant deterioration in their pensions, which is why 750,000 low-paid workers—mainly women—have taken that difficult personal decision.
There is a risk that many of those people will opt out of their pensions.
Mr Speaker
Order. May I gently say that I know that in pretty short order the shadow Minister will want to come to his questions on the statement?
Jon Trickett
I thought I was asking questions as I was going along.
What estimate have the Government made of the number of people who might opt out of their pension schemes, and what damage might the schemes incur?
It has been suggested that the Prime Minister thinks he can gain political advantage from the strike. He told The Daily Telegraph that he was delighted that a strike would take place. What is the Minister’s strategy? Will he and the Treasury again meet the trade unions to begin negotiations? We have consistently argued that negotiations should be ongoing. Will he call the unions today to ask for meetings tomorrow?
Let me turn to the disruption that has been caused today. How many people are staffing the borders? Will the Minister confirm that there has been no relaxation of border checks?
This is a strike that did not need to happen—nobody wants strikes. The Government must show that they are willing to negotiate sensibly.
Mr Speaker
Order. I gently say to Whips, wherever they are in the House, that the House is best served when they go about their Protean tasks quietly. On the whole, the House is greatly nourished if they are seen and not heard.
Mr Maude
May I deal with the point about the negotiations? I thought I had made it as clear as possible that, at the TUC’s request, the negotiations are continuing in the scheme sector talks. [Hon. Members: “Are you going to meet them?] I have met them—[Hon. Members: “When?] Since 2 November. We conduct many of the negotiations in private—at the request of the TUC. [Interruption.] If Labour Members want to know when the meetings took place, I shall give them the TUC’s telephone number. Let me be absolutely clear: I shall not disclose what the contacts are—at the express request of the TUC. Okay? If they want me to be explicit about the contacts, rather than attacking me they should talk to the TUC. I think they probably know the number.
The shadow Minister asked whether I would call the unions today to suggest a meeting. He is a bit slow on the uptake: I called them yesterday to make that suggestion. I make it absolutely clear that my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary and I are ready at any stage to meet the TUC. We have done so consistently over the whole period, but at the request of the TUC the discussions are continuing in the four sector schemes and are making good progress. That is why this strike is so indefensible, so unjustifiable, so irresponsible. Luckily, not that much damage will have been inflicted on the economy, because most public servants have chosen to work today as normal. But that has nothing to do with the attitude of the Labour party or of some trade union leaders.
I was asked about the Labour Government’s public sector pension reforms. The shadow Minister made a point about full-time equivalence—the basis on which the previous Government put in place their public sector pension reforms. We have simply followed what they did. I can tell the House that 750,00 low-paid workers will not lose at all—they will not pay a penny more in contributions, because they are below the threshold we have set—and 85% of them are women. It would be useful if the hon. Gentleman confirmed those figures.
The other thing to say about the Labour Government’s pension reforms is that, at the behest of their paymasters in the trade unions, they bottled out of putting in place the long-term reform that makes these changes sustainable. That is why Lord Hutton, Labour’s former Work and Pensions Secretary, recommends all these proposals and reforms, which will make the arrangements we arrive at in the discussions sustainable for a generation. No Government over the next 25 years should have to revisit pension schemes, which we have had to do because the previous Government bottled it.
Mr Speaker
Order. Many Members are seeking to catch my eye. There is another statement to follow, and I remind the House that we have an Opposition day debate too. There is therefore a premium on brevity, the exemplar of which will be Mr David Ruffley.
Mr David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds) (Con)
Three out of four of my constituents work in the private sector for middling incomes, and they tell me that they would have to put one third of their earnings into their pension to get the benefits that people on strike today enjoy on retirement. Does the Minister agree that the public sector pensions settlement is not only incredibly affordable but incredibly fair?
Mr Maude
I think it is fair to the general taxpayer, who has carried all the additional cost of public sector pensions over the past 10 years, and to public sector workers and staff, who are dedicated, hard working and perform essential work. We want pension schemes to be available, without their having to be revisited every few years, because this Government are determined to get this right for the long term.
Mr David Winnick (Walsall North) (Lab)
Despite the sickening trade union bashing of Tory MPs, a number of whose campaigns were financed by Lord Ashcroft, so we do not need any lectures from them, is the Minister aware that many decent, dedicated, law-abiding public servants have gone on strike—in many instances for the first time in their life—because they feel cheated and insecure about their pensions and do not accept what the Minister and other Ministers have said? Is there not at least an opportunity to try to understand the deep, strong feelings of people, many of whom will retire with pensions worth a tiny fraction of those that most Tory MPs will receive?
Mr Maude
I do understand the concerns of public sector staff and I want to commend the 75% to 80% of public sector workers who have gone to work today as normal. No one had to go on strike. Discussions are continuing and, as I said, making progress on a daily basis. The hon. Gentleman mentions pensions for Members of Parliament. We are public sector workers. We have a very generous pension scheme. It needs to be reformed and I hope it will be.
Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)
I declare an interest as a paid-up member of the NASUWT who is not supportive of the action taken today. The critical thing is the timing. Can the Minister reiterate and continue to reiterate the fact that negotiations went on yesterday, will go on tomorrow and, tragically, would have happened today had it not been for the action that has been taken?
Mr Maude
My hon. Friend is completely right on that. His own union will be in discussions with the education employers tomorrow. There is disruption caused by today’s action, but despite that there were discussions yesterday with civil service unions and there will be discussions tomorrow and on Friday with health unions. This process is still going ahead, which is why it is so hard to defend the action being taken today. I am just sorry that the Labour party cannot bring itself—does not have the guts—to say it is wrong.
Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
Does not the Minister understand that there are thousands of part-time workers, the vast majority of whom are women, who are being asked to pay an extra 3%? I would not call it pension contribution, because it is not even going to boost their pension fund. How many of them will opt out as a result of the Government’s changes?
Mr Maude
For most public sector workers there is no fund. Contributions made today go to pay pensions today. The local government scheme is funded. Most of them are not funded. They are pay-as-you-go schemes. Lower paid people will not be asked to pay more. As I say, 750,000 low paid public sector workers will have to pay nothing extra at all as a result of these changes.
Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)
Is my right hon. Friend aware that in a substantial number of local authorities, local government pensions are paid for by the equivalent of 25% of council tax? Is it fair to those council tax payers who are paying such a large sum of their hard-earned cash?
Mr Maude
Over recent years the balance between what is paid by public sector staff towards their pensions and what is paid by the general taxpayer and, in the case that my hon. Friend refers to, the council tax payer, has got out of balance. What we are doing is putting it into a fairer balance. In every case the employer, which is the taxpayer, will be paying more towards the cost of those pensions than staff. I think that is fair, as well. But there will be a fairer balance, and so there should be.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
A good St Andrew’s day to you, Mr Speaker. The Scottish National party fully supports the public sector unions and we deplore this Government’s pension fund raid. The Scottish Government tried to protect public sector workers in Scotland by not imposing the pension levy, but the Chief Secretary promised to deprive us of £100 million if we did that. Why did he do that? Surely that is a great example of why pension policy should be under the democratic control of the Scottish people in the Scottish Parliament.
Nigel Mills (Amber Valley) (Con)
Can the Minister tell my constituents who work hard and have no chance of achieving a £20,000 index-linked guaranteed pension what level of contributions they would have to pay to their own scheme to get that level of pension?
Mr Maude
As has been said, to achieve the same pension as many public sector workers will continue to enjoy after these reforms are put in place, many people working in the private sector would end up having to pay no less than a third of their salary in pension contributions. These are good pension schemes. They will continue to be good pension schemes. We want them to be so.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
I know that those on the Government Benches want to denigrate trade unions, but I am proud of being a trade unionist. I first joined a trade union when I was a vicar, though it was always a bit difficult to strike, because nobody noticed and it was difficult to identify who one’s employer was. What angers many public sector workers is that, even where there are pension funds, as the Minister admitted today, the extra 3% that is being asked for is not going into those funds. It is going straight to the Government. That is what makes it feel like a raid on public sector workers.
Mr Maude
I feel confident that if the hon. Gentleman was on strike today, we would definitely miss him. I commend him, as a member of a trade union, for having crossed the picket line today to come to work. The issue he raises is where the extra contribution is going. He fails to understand that these schemes, for the most part, are not funded schemes. What is not paid by staff towards the cost of their pensions is picked up by the general taxpayer. And I say again—I assume this is the basis on which the shadow Chancellor said this morning that further reform of public sector pensions is needed—that whatever is not paid by staff is picked up the taxpayer, and that all the extra cost in the past 10 years, which has risen by a third—an extra £10 billion a year—has fallen on the general taxpayer. That is why we need a fairer balance.
Priti Patel (Witham) (Con)
With only a third of union members voting for today’s strike action, does my right hon. Friend believe that today’s action is justified?
Mr Maude
I do not think that on any basis today’s action is justified. First of all, there are negotiations going on almost on a daily basis, as I said. Secondly, certainly in the biggest trade unions, a very low proportion of the members who were balloted voted. In Unison, for example, only a little over a quarter of the members balloted voted. In all the large unions, it was somewhere between a quarter and a third. That does not amount to very much of a mandate for strike action. I think it was irresponsible and I wish it had not happened.
Mr David Hamilton (Midlothian) (Lab)
Some on the Government Benches, when they are baying against the unions, should understand the history. It was the Thatcher Government who gave us the political levy, and that decision allows individual trade unionists to pay the levy to the Labour party. I want to try to be helpful. The reason that we are having the dispute today, apart from all the obvious arguments about the cut taking place by the Government, is that when a union holds a ballot, it has a finite amount of time before it has to take industrial action. If the Government did away with that stupid rule, which was brought in by the Thatcher Government, we would have been able to continue negotiations. Is that not correct?
Mr Maude
I start by saying that we are in continuing negotiations. There will be negotiations tomorrow, the day after, next week and the week after, so negotiations are continuing. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that the way the law works at present creates a perverse incentive for unions to take action. We suggested a number of ways in which the mandate could be kept open. For example, in order to keep a mandate open but not inconvenience the public, the National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers has called a two-hour strike in the middle of the night. In the Royal Mail, the Communication Workers Union has occasionally called five-minute strikes in order to keep a mandate open. It was not necessary, in order to keep this mandate open, for the unions to call a full strike. I am happy to say that most of their members have ignored the call.
Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)
Mr Speaker, I hope you will not think it unparliamentary language if I say that I am gobsmacked by today’s strike action. If anybody is responsible for the biggest attack on our pensions ever, it was the previous Government, who raided our private sector pensions. There were no strikes then. That has left the private sector with very little in their pensions. Does my right hon. Friend think the time is right to look again at the ten-minute rule Bill introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for Esher and Walton (Mr Raab) suggesting that a minimum level of turnout should be required for any ballots on future strikes, particularly under the circumstances, which are so unbalanced towards the private sector?
Mr Maude
I am aware of the motion, and I am aware of the case having been made by the CBI, among others, for such a change in the law. We think that the law can work well and we do not see any priority for making changes along those lines, but every time a strike is called on the basis of a very low turnout in a ballot, those advocates for change will feel that their hand is strengthened.
Tony Lloyd (Manchester Central) (Lab)
The House will understand why the Minister has wriggled so consistently on this question of part-time workers on below £15,000, who will be paying the 3%. Can he explain to the people who will be paying that why they have to pay 3% income tax while the bankers’ bonuses are left untouched?
Mr Maude
I remind the hon. Gentleman that under the scheme put in place by the Labour Government, there would have been an increase of £1 billion in the contribution paid by public sector staff towards their pensions in April next year in any event. The proposal we are making is only slightly ahead of that, and we are exempting large numbers of low-paid workers from the effects of it. I repeat that 750,000 low-paid public sector workers will have no increase in their contributions as a result of the specific protections that the coalition Government have put in place.
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
Given that only one in 10 low-paid private sector workers could afford anything like the pension arrangements for comparably paid people in the public sector, does my right hon. Friend agree that urgent reform is necessary if we are to have anything like fairness for all?
Mr Maude
In his report, Lord Hutton made it clear that he did not want public sector pension reform to be a race to the bottom, and we totally agree with that. We want as many people as possible to have access to a decent pension in retirement, but we want the public sector pensions that persist after reforms have been put in place to continue to be decent pensions that are sustainable for the long-term future. That is what we are aiming at, and that is what we will achieve.
Mr David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab)
In relation to turnout, could the right hon. Gentleman reflect on the fact that only 39% of his constituents voted for him and only 27% of the constituents of the Chief Secretary to the Treasury voted for him? We do not need any lectures about turnout. Notwithstanding the confidentiality of some of the negotiations, will the Minister put in the Library a document showing exactly where we are with the negotiations and, in particular, where we are with the local government negotiations, where, as far as I am aware, no offer has been made?
Mr Maude
My right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary came and stood at the Dispatch Box on 2 November and made an offer. What is going on in the discussions on the four schemes is that the elements that he announced are being worked over, in conjunction with the unions, to work out what the best configuration is for the future. All these work forces are different—they have different salary profiles, different demographics, different age profiles—and the right arrangement of those moving parts within each scheme will also differ. That is where the negotiations are taking place, in order to arrive at the right agreed outcome. That is happening at the moment, so the idea that no offer has been made is completely irrelevant and immaterial.
Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)
If we fail to make sustainable reform, to what extent will future generations be liable?
Mr Maude
My hon. Friend makes the right point. If the reform goes through, as it will, this will be a settlement for a generation and future Governments will not have to come back, as we have had to do to clear up the mess left by the last Government, who bottled it. If there is no sustainable reform, the burden on future generations will be significant. We cannot have a position where an ever smaller working population continues to pay for the pensions of an ever larger retired population. People are living longer. Life expectancy is rising every year. A 60-year-old today can expect to live for 10 years longer than could a 60-year-old in the 1970s. It is absurd to suppose that we can have the same retirement age today as we had then.
Mr Speaker
Order. It is also absurd to suppose that we can accommodate everyone unless questions and answers are significantly shorter.
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
The Minister has consistently refused to address the issue of low-paid part-time workers and the extra contribution they will have to make on a pro rata basis. Does he deny that those people—many of them the lowest-paid women working in the public sector—will be more affected than others?
Margot James (Stourbridge) (Con)
In view of the fact that a private sector worker would have to contribute, on average, a third of their salary in order to get a similar pension to a public sector worker, and that without reform the public pensions bill would cost an additional £7 billion in borrowing, may I urge my right hon. Friend not to compromise any further on the generous offer that he has already made?
Mr Maude
We have made a generous offer. It means that many people in the public sector, especially those on lower and middle incomes, will be able to retire on a pension at least as good as they can expect at the moment. But we have said that that offer was conditional on there being agreement, so we want the discussions in the schemes to continue even more intensively than they have been already so that we can give effect to that offer.
John Cryer (Leyton and Wanstead) (Lab)
Public sector workers will have to work longer and get less out of their pension schemes while, this year alone, bankers walked away with £7 billion in bonuses. I know that the Minister will say that he cannot do anything about that, but does he think that it is fair?
Mr Maude
As my right hon. Friend the Chancellor made clear yesterday, more will be got out of the banks than was the case under the Labour Government, who made such an enormous fuss about this. Public sector pensions will continue to be extremely generous, and that is what we want.
Laura Sandys (South Thanet) (Con)
I commend the immigration contingency plan. My husband came through Heathrow very smoothly at 6 o’clock this morning. There was a lack of enthusiasm for the mandate for this strike. Will my right hon. Friend update us on exactly how many people are taking industrial action, as enthusiasm for being on strike today seems not to reflect the unions’ enthusiasm for this event?
Mr Maude
I am delighted that my hon. Friend’s husband had an easy ride. There are reports that, at some airports, the service is better than it usually is. I commend all those immigration staff who have come to work as normal and all of those who have, in a public-spirited way, volunteered to help to ensure that the borders are secure and that disruption is kept to an absolute minimum.
Emma Reynolds (Wolverhampton North East) (Lab)
Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that a community nurse working two days a week on an extremely low salary of £10,000 a year will have to pay the 3% surcharge? If that is the case, does he think that it is fair?
Mr Maude
Unlike the Labour Government, we are tiering the increases in contributions in a progressive way so that people on the lowest pay are protected and those on highest pay will pay most. We think that that is a fair way of doing it. Someone who is working part-time, on a full-time equivalent salary of between £15,000 and £21,000, will have their increase in contributions capped at 1.5%. If it is below £15,000, they pay nothing more. We think that is fair. The full-time equivalent basis about which she is complaining is what her own Government put in place.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
As a former private sector worker, I know how many people will be wondering, given the irresponsible nature of these strikes, why £113 million of Government money is paid to the unions. Would it not be better used on body armour for our troops in the field, or on looking after sick babies in our hospitals by improving intensive care?
Mr Maude
It is entirely correct that a large amount of taxpayers’ money is effectively used to pay for full and part-time union officials. There can be perfectly good justification for some of that, in order to sort out local disputes quickly and effectively, but that there should now be 260 full-time union officials on the civil service payroll is really hard to justify, and we are reviewing it.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
I regret the trade union action while negotiations are going on, and the Northern Ireland economy can ill afford the cost of this. Will the Minister confirm that the offer on the table is not a final offer and that, in ongoing negotiations, he will consider the impact on low-paid part-time workers and the appropriateness of raising the pension age for people who are engaged in physical activity, such as firemen?
Mr Maude
We absolutely take those points on board. I, too, regret the additional disruption that there is today in Northern Ireland, where the whole public transport system has come to a halt. As the hon. Gentleman says, the Northern Ireland economy can ill afford that kind of disruption. There is a great deal of flexibility within the negotiations. There are a lot of moving parts and they will be put together in different combinations in different schemes. We are very much aware of concerns of the sort that he raises.
Jane Ellison (Battersea) (Con)
The move to basing pensions on a career average is good news for very many women. Does my right hon. Friend share my frustration that Labour Members seem so determined constantly to portray women as victims rather than take pride in this important move?
Mr Maude
My hon. Friend is completely right. The move from final salary to career average schemes is of particular benefit to a lot of women, who, as has been said, form the majority of the public sector work force. Many women will have taken a career break and so their final salary will provide a less good basis for a good pension than the career average, which is what we seek to put in place.
Paul Blomfield (Sheffield Central) (Lab)
The Minister has repeated an assertion made by the Prime Minister that workers on low and middle incomes would get a larger pension at retirement than they do now. Does he accept, as has been widely reported, that that is contradicted by the Government’s own pensions calculator and that, for example, a worker on an average wage of £26,000 retiring with accrued service of 10 years at this point, whether at 60 or 67, would have a substantially worse pension despite the additional contributions?
Mr Maude
I do not believe that that is the case. Public sector workers on middle and lower incomes will be able to retire—albeit many of them later than they currently expect and having paid more towards it; we are perfectly open about that—on a pension that is at least as good, and many of them will be able to retire on a better pension than they currently expect.
Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con)
Does my right hon. Friend share my concern that very many of those who are engaged in industrial action, including many of my constituents—half my constituents work in the public sector—are completely unaware of the offer that he has made in relation to defending accrued rights of all pensioners up to the date of change, and of the significant improvement in accrual rates announced by the Chief Secretary, which gives the lie to the claim that we have just heard from the Labour Benches?
Mr Maude
My hon. Friend is completely right. We have done our best to get the details of the offer through to members of the public sector staff directly and to correct the misleading indications given by some trade union leaders, which I deeply regret. He is absolutely right to draw attention to the commitment we have made that all accrued rights are protected. What has been paid for up until now will be honoured in full.
Tom Blenkinsop (Middlesbrough South and East Cleveland) (Lab)
The Minister said recently that the north-east is heavily dependent on the public sector, and the loss of a day’s pay means less spending power in the north-east economy. That will impact on the economy, for sure. What does he believe will happen after he has sacked 700,000 public sector workers? Is it not the case that, whether someone took strike action today or not, they will probably not have a job?
Mr Maude
I am really sorry that the north-east economy is going to take a bigger hit than other parts of the economy because the Tyne and Wear metro has been closed down, completely unnecessarily. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will join me in strongly condemning that irresponsible strike action, which will have inflicted damage on the economy of the north-east and inevitably led to there being more job losses than would otherwise be the case.
Esther McVey (Wirral West) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that unions are important organisations that have to get the right and fair deal? This morning I was on Radio Merseyside with Frank Hont from Unison, and we both agreed that it had to be a fair deal, but a fair deal for private sector workers, for public sector workers, for the taxpayer and for future generations, putting pensions on a fair and sustainable footing for the future.
Mr Maude
I totally agree with my hon. Friend. I can confirm that for most of the time we have been conducting these negotiations, the union leaders and the TUC have been behaving in the way that trade unions should in representing their members in a tough and effective way. Where they have gone wrong is in holding ballots and calling a strike at a time when negotiations are still continuing and we are making progress towards a settlement that is fair for taxpayers generally and very fair for public sector workers.
Albert Owen (Ynys Môn) (Lab)
I respect the right of workers in the private or public sector to take legal strike action; that used to be the position of the Conservatives and, indeed, the Liberals. As the Minister will know, some teachers are taking strike action for the first time. On Friday I met a delegation who said that the teachers’ pension scheme has not been valued, that there is a surplus in it, and that the Government are refusing to review the scheme. Will he publish the valuation of that scheme, which they say is in surplus and is not costing the taxpayer money?
Mr Maude
That is wrong in so many ways that it is hard to know where to start. The hon. Gentleman talks as though there is a surplus in a fund. I am sorry to break this to him, but there is no fund. Teachers’ pensions are being paid for by contributions paid predominantly by the taxpayer. There is not a surplus; there is no fund whatsoever. We have to get a better balance between what teachers themselves pay towards their pensions and what the wider taxpayer pays, and that is what we will do. However, there will still be more paid by the wider taxpayer than by teachers, and we support that too.
Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central) (Con)
I join my right hon. Friend in thanking public sector workers who, despite being angry about pay freezes and pension changes, are serving the public today.
Further to the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans), a Labour councillor in my home town today told public sector workers that the money saved is going to be used to bail out the banks. What more can the Government do to make sure that people get told the truth about why these changes are being made and the detailed nature of the offer?
Mr Maude
We will do everything we can. We have communicated directly with civil servants because the Government are their employer and we can do that very directly. It is much more difficult to communicate directly with all teachers and people working in the NHS, because they are employed by a wide range of different, dispersed employers. However, the fact is that most public sector workers—more than three quarters—have ignored the call to take part in this irresponsible strike, and I warmly commend them for doing so.
Richard Burden (Birmingham, Northfield) (Lab)
I put it to the Minister that the willingness to negotiate has got to be a bit more than the willingness to attend meetings. A while ago, Ministers said that the offer was “final”. Is it a final offer or not; and, specifically, will the Minister negotiate around the 3%?
Mr Maude
We have made it clear that if, in the discussions within the sectors, there can be alternative ways of delivering the savings that are needed in the comprehensive spending review period, we will consider those suggestions. However, no such suggestions have been made. I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for at least conceding for the first time from the Labour Benches that negotiations are continuing and making progress. There are still a lot of moving parts, and we need to discuss how they are put together to achieve a fair and sustainable result. I hope that we can continue to intensify that process and make further progress after today’s irresponsible strike action.
Stephen Mosley (City of Chester) (Con)
Will the Minister confirm that in return for paying a little bit more and working a little bit longer, many public sector workers will still be able to retire at 55, and that many low-income and middle-income earners will receive higher pensions under the Government’s proposals than they do currently?
Mr Maude
That is the case. We are absolutely clear that people who, in April next year, will be within 10 years of their expected retirement date will see no change to their retirement age. There are some who are currently looking to retire at 55, and if they are within 10 years of that retirement date, that will be honoured and their pension will be paid in exactly the same way that is envisaged at the moment.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
The Minister says that he has huge respect for public sector workers, but at the same time his Government are sacking tens of thousands of them. Regarding lower-paid part-time women workers, will he put in the Library some examples of the impact that the change from RPI to CPI has had on their pensions?
Mr Maude
We have made available a huge range of information about the effects of the changes to public sector pensions, and there will continue to be more as the negotiations make further progress in the weeks ahead.
I just want to make this point about the job losses. I very much regret that there will continue to be job losses in the public sector. If we had not inherited the biggest budget deficit in the developed world from the Government of whom the hon. Gentleman was a member, those jobs would not be at risk today.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
The Minister knows that I, as one who has worked in the civil service and as the brother and son of teachers, have huge respect for people who work in public service. However, I also believe that many teachers and nurses in my constituency have been woefully misinformed about the details of a complex pension proposal by their unions and by statements from the Labour party. Will he clarify, once and for all, for all hon. Members and for my constituents in Gloucester, that the lowest paid 15% of the work force who are on less than £15,000 a year––about 750,000 people, of whom 85% are women––will pay no extra contributions and will receive a better pension than the one they now receive, inherited from the previous Government?
Mr Maude
I can confirm that and add that many of the lowest paid in the public sector will pay no more towards their pension. When the basic state pension is added on top of the occupational pension, they will be able to retire on a bigger income than they were earning while they were employed.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
What discussions has the Minister had with ministerial colleagues in the Northern Ireland Executive about building stable industrial relations, which would contribute to the local economy, rather than allowing them to undermine low-paid public sector workers who have higher costs to pay for everyday essentials?
Mr Maude
It is the responsibility of all the devolved Administrations to make their own arrangements and conduct their own industrial relations. We conduct our own approach to industrial relations, which involves very intensive discussions with the trade unions that are continuing on an almost daily basis.
Chris Kelly (Dudley South) (Con)
Further to the answer that my right hon. Friend gave the hon. Member for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden), does he agree that it is disingenuous of militant trade union leaders to claim that there have been no recent negotiations when he has explicitly confirmed in his most illuminating statement that talks continued until only yesterday?
Chris Williamson (Derby North) (Lab)
Why do the Government so despise public sector workers such as nurses, doctors, teachers and street care cleaners as to impose a swingeing tax increase when the contributions to pension funds exceed their liabilities? The local government pension fund has an annual surplus of £4 billion to £5 billion. How is that fair and how can he justify it?
Mr Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman must calm himself. There will be an opportunity for points of order, but it does not arise in the middle of a statement.
Mr Maude
Far from having the views about public sector workers that the hon. Member for Derby North (Chris Williamson) wrongly attributes to me, all of us in this House have dedicated ourselves to public service. We know that this is an honourable calling and we know how dedicated are the 6 million public sector workers. I commend the 75% to 80% of public sector workers who have ignored the irresponsible call for strike action and gone to work today as usual.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend take this opportunity to praise those ordinary, hard-working trade unionists in Kettering who have crossed picket lines today to go work to serve members of the public and refused to believe the misleading advice they get from their overpaid, hot-headed trade union bosses, who are itching for a fight with the Government?
Mr Maude
I am afraid that there are some trade union leaders who seem to be absolutely hellbent on confrontation and industrial action. We absolutely did not want that and I join my hon. Friend in commending those of his constituents who are trade union members but who have ignored the call to strike, crossed the picket lines and gone to work to serve the public, as is their vocation.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
As a trade union member, I place on record that I am here this afternoon specifically to represent in Parliament the concerns of my constituents who are trade union members, as they wish me to do. In the light of the news yesterday of a further restriction on pay increases in the public sector, they are particularly concerned about how they are to meet the additional 3% cost. Will the Minister say if there is an opportunity for meaningful negotiation around the timing as well as the rate of any increase in contribution?
Mr Maude
As I said earlier, we have made it clear that the savings that have been baked into the spending settlement for the comprehensive spending review period need to be delivered. If the discussions produce alternative ways of delivering those savings, we have said that we are open to hearing them. We have not heard any yet. Of course the hon. Lady is entitled to represent the interests of her trade union member constituents. I hope that she will also represent the interests of all those in the private sector who pay their taxes, which pay for the lion’s share of the public sector pensions that public sector workers will continue to enjoy.
Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)
On the questions that the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood) and others asked about part-time public sector workers, does the Minister agree that the responsible conversation to have with them is to say, “Don’t protest. Do pay an extra 3%, because you are getting in return for that a pension that would cost you 38% to buy in the real world”?
Mr Maude
My hon. Friend is right. The public sector is as much the real world as any other, but in the private sector, staff would have to pay a very significant part of their salary––more than a third––in contributions to buy pensions as good as these. We want these to continue to be among the very best pension schemes available. That is why we are pushing forward these reforms, with a settlement for a generation, so that future Governments will not have to clear up the mess the last Government left behind.
Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)
Does the Minister agree that it is fair and legitimate for the wider British public to know when he personally took part in negotiations with unions? I heard what he said earlier, but in the interests of transparency, should he not publish this information?
Mr Maude
I say again to the hon. Lady that there are formal negotiations on a continuing basis within the schemes. There are many informal contacts that happen on a continuing basis. Those are kept confidential, not at my request but at that of the TUC, and I will continue to honour that.
Gemma Doyle (West Dunbartonshire) (Lab/Co-op)
The Minister seems to have given my hon. Friend the Member for Stretford and Urmston (Kate Green) an answer on the 3% different from that given by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. Can he confirm that he is willing to negotiate on the 3%?
Mr Maude
What I said, and what my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury said as well, was that the savings that are represented by the average increase of 3.2% must be delivered. If there are other ways of delivering it, we are willing to listen to them, but no suggestions have been made. In the absence of suggestions about how those savings can be delivered by other means within the pension schemes, we are requiring that those contribution increases will be made, but with protection for lower-paid workers.
Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)
I am dismayed by the Minister’s statement today that the low response to the call for strike action reflects the dedication of those who did not vote for it to their public service calling. That clearly implies that those who voted in favour do not have the same dedication. Does that apply to the 57% of the health care physios’ union, the near 50% of the Royal Society of Radiographers and other health professional organisations that voted in the same proportions? Those figures relate to the total work force, not the turnout in the vote. Does he feel that they are in any way at all not as dedicated?
Mr Maude
I did not make the distinction that the hon. Gentleman suggests. All I am saying is that in the public sector work force of nearly 6 million people, over three quarters have gone to work today and ignored the irresponsible call to strike action. If I am going to discriminate between those who have gone to work to follow their public service calling and those who followed the irresponsible call to strike action, then I commend those who have gone to work over those who have gone on strike while negotiations are continuing.
Mr Frank Roy (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
The Minister knows that he is accountable to Parliament—full stop. He is treating Parliament with contempt by not telling Parliament when he—when he—last met trade union organisations. Will he now set the record straight?
Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab)
Does the Paymaster General not recognise that many public sector workers taking industrial action today do so reluctantly, with a heavy heart and because they feel that what is on offer is simply not fair? May I press him a little further on his answers to my hon. Friends the Members for Birmingham, Northfield (Richard Burden) and for West Dunbartonshire (Gemma Doyle)? Is he now saying that he is definitely prepared to countenance meaningful negotiations on the 3% increase?
Mr Maude
I have made it as clear as I possibly can, but I will say it again: the savings represented within the pension schemes and within the comprehensive spending review period by an average 3.2% increase in contributions must be delivered. We have made that clear.
We have made it clear also that we are willing to entertain suggestions on how those savings can be delivered in other ways. We have heard no such suggestions, so those contribution increases—the first of which will go through in April, and which are actually of the same order of magnitude as those that would have gone through under the previous Government’s reforms in any event—will go ahead.
British Embassy (Tehran)
(13 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr William Hague)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I should like to make a statement about events in Tehran.
Shortly after 3 o’clock Tehran time yesterday, approximately 200 demonstrators overran the city-centre compound of our embassy in Tehran. The majority of demonstrators were from a student Basij militia organisation. We should be clear from the outset that that is an organisation controlled by elements of the Iranian regime.
The demonstrators proceeded systematically to vandalise and loot the homes of staff located on the site and the ambassador’s residence. They destroyed furniture, stole property, including the personal possessions of our staff, and set fire to the main embassy office building.
Simultaneously, our second embassy compound at Gulhaq in north Tehran also came under attack, and staff homes there were also attacked and looted. Our staff immediately evacuated the buildings affected and took refuge in safe areas of the compound. It was not until yesterday evening that we received confirmation that the Iranian diplomatic police had belatedly assisted at both compounds, and that all our staff were accounted for.
I wish to pay a fulsome tribute to our ambassador and his staff, who throughout those hours of danger behaved with the utmost calm and professionalism and followed well developed contingency plans. The Prime Minister and I have spoken to him several times in the past 24 hours and passed on our thanks to the UK-based and locally engaged members of his team.
It will be obvious to the whole House and the whole world that these events are a grave violation of the Vienna convention, which states that a host state is required to protect the premises of a diplomatic mission against any intrusion, damage or disturbance. This is a breach of international responsibilities of which any nation should be ashamed.
It is true, of course, that relations between Britain and Iran are difficult, as they are to varying degrees between Iran and many other nations. We publicly differ with Iran over its nuclear programme and on human rights, and we make no secret of our views. We have been foremost among those nations arguing for peaceful legitimate pressure to be intensified on Iran in the light of the International Atomic Energy Agency’s “deep and increasing concern” about the Iranian nuclear programme, including its “possible military dimensions”.
But we should be absolutely clear that no difficulty in relations can ever excuse in any way or under any circumstances the failure to protect diplomatic staff and diplomatic premises. Iran is a country where Opposition leaders are under house arrest, where more than 500 people have been executed so far this year and where genuine protest is ruthlessly stamped on. The idea that the Iranian authorities could not have protected our embassy, or that this assault could have taken place without some degree of regime consent, is fanciful.
Yesterday, I called the Iranian Foreign Minister to protest in the strongest terms about the events and to demand immediate steps to ensure the safety of our staff and of both embassy compounds. He said that he was sorry for what had happened and that action would be taken in response. The Iranian chargé d’affaires in London was summoned to the Foreign Office to reinforce those messages, and Cobra met yesterday afternoon and again this morning with the Prime Minister in the chair.
The UN Security Council issued a statement condemning the attack on our embassy in the strongest terms and calling on the Iranian authorities to
“protect diplomatic and consular property and personnel”.
I am grateful for the strong statements of concern and support from the United States, the European Union, Germany, Poland, Russia, China and many other nations. I particularly wish to thank France for the robust support that it has given us in every way, and for the practical assistance and accommodation that it has provided to our staff in Tehran.
Throughout Europe, Iranian ambassadors have been summoned to receive strong protests. In the words of the Foreign Minister of Austria:
“With the attack on the British Embassy, Iran is now on the verge of placing itself completely outside of the framework of international law. If Iran thinks it can undermine European solidarity through such actions, it is wrong.”
I am grateful to our other friends in the region itself, and particularly to the United Arab Emirates for its practical help. I am grateful also to the Foreign Minister of Turkey for his prompt and helpful intervention in these matters last night.
The safety of our staff and of other British nationals in Iran is our highest priority. We have now closed the British embassy in Tehran. We have decided to evacuate all our staff, and as of the last few minutes, the last of our UK-based staff has now left Iran.
We will work with friendly countries to ensure that residual British interests are protected and that urgent consular assistance is available to British nationals. We advise against all but essential travel to Iran. At present, there are no indications that British nationals outside the embassy are being targeted in any way. Those requiring urgent consular assistance will receive help from other EU missions in Tehran.
But that clearly cannot be the end of the matter, and the next few paragraphs of my statement are not in the written version being circulated to the House, because the timing of this announcement had to be consistent with the safety of our staff.
The Iranian chargé in London is being informed now that we require the immediate closure of the Iranian embassy in London, and that all Iranian diplomatic staff must leave the United Kingdom within the next 48 hours. If any country makes it impossible for us to operate on their soil, they cannot expect to have a functioning embassy here. This does not amount to the severing of diplomatic relations in their entirety. It is action that reduces our relations with Iran to the lowest level consistent with the maintenance of diplomatic relations.
The House will understand that it remains desirable for British representatives to be in contact with Iranian representatives—for instance, as part of any negotiations about their nuclear programme or to discuss human rights—but it does mean that both embassies will be closed. We wish to make it absolutely clear to Iran and to any other nation that such action against our embassies and such a flagrant breach of international responsibilities is totally unacceptable to the United Kingdom.
Later today and tomorrow I will attend the meeting of the EU Foreign Affairs Council in Brussels, when we will discuss these events and further action that needs to be taken in the light of Iran’s continued pursuit of a nuclear weapons programme.
As a permanent member of the UN Security Council and a leading member of the European Union, we are proud of the role that our country plays in maintaining international peace and security and in standing up for human rights all over the world. If the Iranian Government think that we will be diverted from those responsibilities by the intimidation of our embassy staff, they will be making a serious mistake.
Mr Douglas Alexander (Paisley and Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
I thank the Foreign Secretary for his statement and for allowing me advance sight of it. It is indeed right that we address the issues of the assault on the British embassy in Tehran along with other important business before the House today.
I, of course, begin by expressing my clear and unequivocal condemnation of the deplorable attacks that we witnessed yesterday in Tehran, and associate all Opposition Members with the words yesterday of the Foreign Secretary and of the Prime Minister on the issue.
Let me deal with the welfare of the UK diplomatic staff. I commend the British ambassador and his whole team on their handling of the situation and the unyielding professionalism and, indeed, bravery that they have shown at this extremely difficult time. Our thoughts are also with the staff and the families who were affected by yesterday’s assaults. Are appropriate steps being taken to safeguard locally engaged staff who have supported UK-based staff during the period in which the British embassy in Tehran has been operational?
With regard to responsibility for the assault, the Iranian Government clearly failed to take adequate measures to protect our embassy, our staff and our property. Their international responsibilities, including those under the Vienna convention, are well established. The demonstrations were co-ordinated, not coincidental, and the suggestion that the regime, or at least elements within it, were unaware of some of the actions stretches credulity. I welcome the right hon. Gentleman’s confirmation that he immediately summoned the Iranian chargé d’affaires to the Foreign Office yesterday and the condemnation issued by our colleagues in the European Union and the UN Security Council.
Let me turn to the context and consequences of yesterday’s events. The backdrop was the unequivocal International Atomic Energy Agency report published earlier this month, which made it clear that there is accumulating evidence for the possible military dimensions of Iran’s nuclear programme. In response to the report, the UK, along with Canada and the United States, sought to increase peaceful diplomatic pressure on Iran, and only last week the Chancellor announced the severing of all ties with Iranian banks, including the Central Bank of Iran. As a result of these measures, the Iranian Parliament approved a Bill three days ago requiring Iran and Britain to withdraw their ambassadors and downgrade the status of the two countries’ diplomatic ties.
That was the immediate context of yesterday’s assault, but what about the consequences? As we have just heard, British diplomats are thankfully on their way home and the embassy has been closed. The Foreign Secretary has just informed the House that, in response to the events, the Iranian chargé d’affaires has been told to leave the UK and Iran’s embassy in London will be closed forthwith. The safety and security of UK diplomatic staff and other UK nationals must be a paramount consideration, but can the Foreign Secretary set out how dialogue will be maintained in the light of these developments? If the effect of yesterday’s events is to extinguish dialogue—albeit that dialogue on human rights and the nuclear dossier is proving extremely difficult at present—the elements within the regime that seek conflict and confrontation would be strengthened. In the light of the diplomatic changes, what mechanisms for dialogue will remain open?
The Opposition agree that Britain’s national interest is best served by pursuing a twin-track approach to Iran and its nuclear ambitions, so will the Foreign Secretary be a little clearer when he responds on how the first part of that approach, the engagement strategy, will continue in the light of the downgrading of diplomatic relations? Does he agree that, notwithstanding yesterday’s truly deplorable assault on the embassy, a clear-eyed sense of Britain’s national interest would resist in the weeks ahead a descent into ever more bellicose rhetoric and instead seek to find new means of taking forward the difficult but necessary dialogue? Does he also agree that in that dialogue we must be clear that such deplorable assaults on our embassy will not and must not alter our determination to take forward the diplomatic work with others in the international community to ensure that Iran upholds its responsibilities and obligations under international law?
Finally, will the Foreign Secretary consider returning to the House in the weeks or months ahead to make a more wide-ranging statement on Iran in calmer times and the approach that the Government now intend to take, given not only the immediate events and their consequences, which he has rightly come to the House to address, but the stalled progress on the E3 plus 3 process and the growing anxiety about Iran’s nuclear ambitions?
Mr Hague
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, who has joined in the condemnation of these completely unacceptable acts and the commendation of our ambassador and his staff. He asked about the locally engaged staff. Other than security staff, locally engaged staff were not in the embassy compound yesterday because, in anticipation of the demonstrations, we had asked them not to come to work, so they were not involved in the violence and danger. We will, of course, look after them financially and have a continuing concern for their welfare, although it must be pointed out that, as former Foreign Secretaries will remember, our locally engaged staff in Tehran have unfortunately always been at some degree of risk because of previous unacceptable behaviour by the Iranian regime.
The right hon. Gentleman is right to remind us of the wider context of the IAEA report and the action the Chancellor announced last week to sever financial links between our financial institutions and those of Iran. He asked how dialogue is to be maintained. Clearly these events make that more difficult. We do not take such decisions at all lightly, but after the events we have come to the conclusion that no assurance the Iranian regime could deliver on the safety of our staff could be believed. We have an overriding duty of care for those staff.
It is still possible in other forums to pursue dialogue with Iran where appropriate and meaningful. We are part of the E3 plus 3 process—the six nations that wish to negotiate with Iran over its nuclear programme—as is the United States, which does not have an embassy in Tehran. We meet the Iranians at various multilateral forums and organisations. I met the Iranian Foreign Minister at the UN General Assembly earlier this year. As I have said, we are not advocating the severing of all diplomatic relations. It is important that dialogue about these issues can continue, but it is not possible to maintain an embassy under these circumstances and in the light of these threats and actions.
The right hon. Gentleman asked about bellicose rhetoric. Of course, that is something that comes from Iran, not the United Kingdom. We heard that on Sunday in the Iranian Parliament there were chants of, “Death to Britain”, and it is unimaginable that we would ever treat any country in that way in our deliberations here in the House of Commons. It is the bellicose rhetoric coming from Iran that should come to an end. I am of course open to making other statements to the House in future and more wide-ranging considerations of our future policy towards Iran.
Richard Ottaway (Croydon South) (Con)
I share the Foreign Secretary’s sense of outrage and welcome his statement and the steps he is taking. Iran is propping up the regime in Syria, undermining peace efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan and supporting terrorism in a number of arenas around the world. Does he agree that there is only one language these people understand: the language of the firmest possible action? Yet does he agree that we must somehow maintain a degree of dialogue somewhere along the line?
Mr Hague
My hon. Friend is right that there have been no rewards for anything other than firm dealings with Iran. Many efforts have been made to induce the Iranians into a more substantial dialogue than we have enjoyed in recent years. The right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), when Foreign Secretary, made valiant efforts to do so, to which we should pay tribute, but his efforts and those of other European Foreign Ministers have not been successful at any stage. It is important to respond firmly to such provocations and attacks, but to continue to seek meaningful negotiations on the nuclear programme, and that remains our position.
Mr Jack Straw (Blackburn) (Lab)
As co-chair of the all-party group on Iran, alongside the hon. Member for Wyre and Preston North (Mr Wallace), and as a former Foreign Secretary who sought better relations with Iran, as the Foreign Secretary has kindly noted, and who went to Tehran five times in pursuit of that, I begin by entirely endorsing his praise for our brave and skilful diplomats and the outrage we all feel at the Iranian Government’s egregious breach of their obligations to protect all diplomatic embassies and posts and their palpable failure to do anything, which they could easily have done, to protect the embassy against the organised demonstration. I appreciate just how difficult it is to make such decisions when faced with them, rather than having just to comment on them, but when the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary were thinking about the decision to sever all relations, how far did the Foreign Secretary consider the irony of the fact that what he believes is justified is exactly what the hard-liners in the Majlis want? Given that we are not talking about a single Government, as the Americans often forget, but a system that is in turmoil, to what extent does he believe that we will now be able to strengthen those, even within the Ahmadinejad regime, who are seeking a better path than that of some of the hard-liners in the Majlis?
Mr Hague
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for what he said about our staff and how they have conducted themselves. He is right to draw attention to the difficulties and downsides of any way of proceeding in this situation. As a former Foreign Secretary, he will know that we must be able to be confident that we can look after our staff, and that assurances of host Governments can be believed. Sometimes our staff continue to operate in very difficult and dangerous circumstances. At the moment, Yemen is an example of that, but even there, where there have been two attempts on the life of our staff in the past 18 months, we do not suspect that parts of the regime there are implicated in attacks on our embassy. That makes life dramatically more difficult, and must be weighed heavily in any balance of the question.
We must also consider that the incident in Iran has happened in currently difficult diplomatic circumstances, but we cannot be confident that those circumstances will not deteriorate further over the next 12 months or so, so we must have regard to what might happen to our embassy in those circumstances. Having considered all those matters, the Prime Minister and I believe it is right to take this action, not to sever all relations, to put the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw) right, because it is still possible to have diplomatic contact under what I have set out, but to close both embassies.
Mr Ben Wallace (Wyre and Preston North) (Con)
I join the Foreign Secretary in paying tribute to the locally engaged staff and our diplomatic staff, whom I last met at the embassy when I visited in 2008. They have had to endure three incursions into the embassy in the past four years, and this is the most serious and obviously threatening to British interests and property.
The E3 plus 3 works best when it works as one in negotiating with Iran, and withdrawal of our embassy leaves much of the day-to-day contact with the Iranian Government in the hands of the Chinese and Russian E3 plus 3 members. What confidence does the Foreign Secretary have that those two member states will play their full part in ensuring that negotiations with Iran come to a successful conclusion?
Mr Hague
It is not solely the Russian and Chinese embassies that will be there, because the French and German embassies are still in Tehran, although both France and Germany are taking very strong diplomatic action in the light of these events. I will not make their announcements for them, but they are outraged by the events and will follow with their own strong diplomatic action. Those countries are still in Tehran, and are an important part of the E3 plus 3 process. Although we have differences with Russia and China, the process is by no means wholly in the hands of those countries.
David Miliband (South Shields) (Lab)
I join the Foreign Secretary in his utter condemnation of yesterday’s attacks on the embassy and its staff. However, he will know that the Iranian regime loves to trade shows of machismo and enjoys tit for tat, and that parts of it glory in Iran’s isolation. In that context, the presence of the British embassy in Tehran for much of the past 30 years has been wholly good, in contrast with the American position. This is a sad day for British diplomacy.
I have two questions for the Foreign Secretary. First, what will he do to ensure that this is not seen as a victory for those in the regime who would seek isolation—the so-called hard-liners? Secondly, what will he do to ensure that this series of announcements does not become part of the unwelcome drum beat of war that started in the last six weeks in respect of the Iranian nuclear programme?
Mr Hague
The international condemnation of Iran, the strong expressions of support for our staff, and the grave concern for what has happened have come from Russia and China, as well as from western nations, our European allies and the United States. Anyone in Tehran who thought they had won a victory in Iran in the light of the world-wide condemnation of the events would be very blinkered. We have been clear, as was the right hon. Gentleman when he was Foreign Secretary, that we are not advocating military action against Iran. We are calling for peaceful, legitimate pressure. It is as part of that peaceful, legitimate pressure that Iran has taken action that breaches international conventions, specifically the Vienna convention.
As I said to the right hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr Straw), we must weigh heavily those considerations and the disadvantages of embassies being closed, but the Government must make a decision, and our decision is that we cannot keep our staff safe in Iran, and its actions are so unacceptable that we have to take a very firm line. On the balance of such matters, we decided to take the action that we have.
Martin Horwood (Cheltenham) (LD)
For the Liberal Democrats, I join the condemnation of yesterday’s events and support the Foreign Secretary’s response. I also express our relief that our staff are now safe, and our admiration for their courage and professionalism.
The Foreign Secretary listed many nations that had expressed concern and support, and included Russia and China. In the international context, does he regard that as a positive development, and perhaps the beginning of the foundation of a more consistent international approach to the regime in Tehran?
Mr Hague
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for all his remarks. His question about whether there is a new development in the international handling of wider issues in Iran is interesting. It is too early to say yes, but I think the events will help to open the eyes of many people throughout the world to the nature and behaviour of the Iranian regime. If it has so little regard for such well established international conventions as the protection of diplomatic premises, one can imagine that it does not have much regard for other international agreements either.
Keith Vaz (Leicester East) (Lab)
I join others in welcoming the Foreign Secretary’s action. He will know that about 70,000 Iranians live in the United Kingdom. What will be the practical consequences of his decisions? Where will entry clearance operations in Tehran move to now that the embassy is closed? Where will British Iranians who want to visit relatives in Iran make their applications for visas?
Mr Hague
It will of course be more difficult for them, because we will not have a visa section operating in Tehran. Iranian citizens can still obtain visas to come to the United Kingdom, but they will have to obtain them through other hubs of our diplomatic network, specifically Abu Dhabi, or other hubs of the visa network. We will ask another country to act on our behalf in Iran and to look after our interests there, and I imagine that the Iranians will ask a third country to do the same here in London and to provide whatever assistance is required for Iranian citizens here in the UK.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
Is it not the case that President Ahmadinejad could do well to learn from Persian history, in particular King Cyrus, who created the first charter on human rights, which can be seen in the foyer of the United Nations building? He taught all his people the importance of respecting the rights not only of Iranian or Persian citizens but of foreigners.
Mr Speaker
I have just been reminded that the hon. Member for The Wrekin (Mark Pritchard) is a learned and well-read fellow.
Mr Speaker
I do not know that anyone is as learned or well read as the hon. Member for Rhondda (Chris Bryant).
Chris Bryant
The Foreign Secretary referred to bellicose words. What counts as bellicose words in Iran is rather different from what counts as bellicose words from a Foreign Secretary in the House of Commons. I worry about the tone that the right hon. Gentleman has adopted today. I noted that on the radio a couple of weeks ago he refused to rule out military intervention. Will he do so today?
Mr Hague
No. I always say that all options remain on the table, but I always make it clear, as did the previous Government, that we are not advocating military action against Iran. Our position is the same as that of the previous British Government—the hon. Gentleman was a Foreign Office Minister in that Government—and the same as that of France, Germany and the United States. It is a united international position, and we continue to adhere to the one to which he subscribed.
Mr John Baron (Basildon and Billericay) (Con)
The Foreign Secretary is absolutely right to condemn the sacking of our embassy, which can only serve to inflame tensions generally. Given recent remarks by Israel, and the fact that there was no smoking gun from the recent International Atomic Energy Agency report, will he do what he can to restrain Israel from conducting any form of military strike, which would be catastrophic for the region? If Iran has set its mind on nuclear weapons, it will not be scared away, and if it has not, a military strike will encourage it.
Mr Hague
Clearly, from what I have said, we are not advocating a military strike by anybody. I have often said in the past that although the possession of nuclear weapons by Iran would be a calamity for the world, it is quite possible that military action against Iran would be calamitous. I absolutely stand by that.
I do not think that my hon. Friend should dismiss so lightly the IAEA report, which referred to the agency’s serious concerns regarding credible evidence about the military dimensions of the Iranian nuclear programme. My hon. Friend should weigh that a little more heavily.
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
I am slightly troubled by some of the triumphant cheering that we heard behind the Foreign Secretary when he announced the closure of the embassy. Government Members would do well to show caution about the path they seem so eager to head down.
The Foreign Secretary has briefly mentioned both Turkey and the United Arab Emirates. May I press him to say a little more about the Government’s dialogue with other Governments in the region, and particularly with the Gulf Co-operation Council?
Mr Hague
We are in constant touch with those nations, of course. I spoke to Turkey’s Foreign Minister twice last night. He spoke, as I did, to the Iranian Foreign Minister, expressing Turkey’s outrage about these events and asking for the protection of our diplomatic staff. We are in constant diplomatic touch with the Gulf states, which also share our outrage about what has happened. As I mentioned in my statement, the United Arab Emirates has been able to give us practical help in the evacuation of our staff. A large number of the flights out of Tehran go to the UAE, so we have been in close touch with it about that.
Mr Bernard Jenkin (Harwich and North Essex) (Con)
May I explain to my right hon. Friend why I cheered during his statement? It was because he is absolutely right to show strength and resolution rather than surrender in the face of the provocation by the Iranian regime. May I also give him the fullest support for refusing to rule out the military option? There have been 10 years—more than a decade—of best intentions and positive diplomacy as we have tried to win the arguments with the Iranians. If this incident does not remove the rose-tinted spectacles from our eyes, nothing will.
Mr Hague
All options, of course, are kept on the table. However, I stress, as I have to other hon. Members, that we are not calling for military action. But I am grateful to my hon. Friend: in the House of Commons, we show approval with cheers, grunts or movements of the head, and all are acceptable on this occasion.
Mr Nigel Dodds (Belfast North) (DUP)
All Members would do well to remember the deplorable nature of this attack on British embassy property and staff. It demanded an appropriate response and I commend the Foreign Secretary for his swift, decisive and entirely appropriate response on this occasion. In relation to the twin-track approach that he has set out, what further practical steps—what further measures in addition to the sanctions already announced—can be taken to increase peaceful and legitimate pressure on Iran?
Mr Hague
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his remarks and support for the action that we have taken. At the European Foreign Affairs Council over the next 24 hours, we will be discussing further actions that can be taken—peaceful, legitimate pressure, as he says. I believe that we will agree on additional sanctions. I do not want to say now what those are going to be. I do not want to prejudge the deliberations with my European colleagues in Brussels, but the right hon. Gentleman can be confident that further measures are on their way.
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
It is always sad when the Union Jack has to be pulled down in any country, because it is such a potent symbol for those of us who have been in hostile countries and for nationals in those countries. However, I rather wonder whether our interests may be served if the European Union has set up its embassy in Iran; it might have something useful to do if it has. It could look after our interests.
Mr Hague
The European Union has been very helpful. Baroness Ashton, the High Representative, issued a very strong and prompt statement about the issue and of course we will work with EU representatives on this matter. We have been fortunate in having such robust support from France, Germany and many other of the member states of the European Union.
Derek Twigg (Halton) (Lab)
This is the second outrage against this country by the Iranians; the Foreign Secretary will recall what happened with HMS Cornwall a few years ago. I support what the Government have said today. They are right in the action that they have taken and I urge them to continue to be firm in a practical and sensible way.
May I ask the Foreign Secretary a specific question? When did the ambassador or his staff last meet the Iranian authorities to discuss the security of the embassy? Were any concerns raised at that meeting and was there a report back to the Foreign Office in London expressing those concerns? If he does not know the answer, will he write to me with the information?
Mr Hague
I am grateful for the support of the hon. Gentleman, who remembers well the United Kingdom’s previous incidents with Iran. There have of course been regular discussions, and concerns have regularly been expressed about the security of the embassy to the Iranian authorities, but I will have to write to him with the exact chronology that he is asking for.
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington) (LD)
This morning, I met representatives of the Baha’i faith, who are clearly suffering greatly at the hands of the Iranians at the moment. Does the Foreign Secretary believe that Iran’s actions in relation to our embassy are symptomatic of a wider failure—a failure to observe not only international law but Iran’s national laws?
Mr Hague
My right hon. Friend makes an important point. In recent times, and particularly during the period this year that we now know as the Arab spring, Iran has become a more repressive system—with greater persecution of minorities, more widespread imprisonment and persecution of journalists, and the house arrest of the two leading Opposition leaders. The constant persecution of members of the Baha’i faith is a very sharp and terrible example of that. My right hon. Friend is right to point to the wider failure to observe the Iranians’ own laws and obligations.
Mark Durkan (Foyle) (SDLP)
I join the Foreign Secretary in expressing regard for the personnel involved and in his unequivocal indictment of regime complicity in these deplorable attacks. On the respective embassy closures, do the Government have in mind particular conditions for their reopening—conditions that would be clearly and readily achievable? Otherwise there is the danger of a spiral of deterioration, of the UK’s position becoming conflated with that of the US and of the UK becoming dependent on the vicarious good offices of others.
Mr Hague
That is a fair question, but the hon. Gentleman will be aware that this has just happened and it is too early to set out such conditions. Clearly, any reopening of the embassies could take place only in a much improved situation in respect of relations with Iran. I would not want to set out those conditions prematurely; we will have to consider the matter over time.
Mr Robert Buckland (South Swindon) (Con)
Yesterday’s dreadful events have attracted a proportionate and measured response from the British Government. In respect of seeking to maintain a dialogue with the Iranians, does my right hon. Friend agree that that dialogue should extend to all arms of Government and all shades of opinion within the governmental structures of Iran?
Mr Hague
In common with several other right hon. and hon. Members, my hon. Friend is right to draw attention to the fact that there are different shades of opinion even within the regime in Iran—of course, there are many more outside the regime. I believe, for instance, that the motives and concerns of the Iranian Foreign Ministry may have been quite different, yesterday, from the motives of other parts of the regime. We have to be conscious of that and, in our contacts with Iran, bear in mind that wide diversity of opinion.
David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend clarify the initial part of his statement? Did I hear rightly that both north and south embassies were attacked simultaneously and that the attacks were possibly sponsored by the state?
Mr Hague
Yes. The militia organisation, the Basij, is well known to be regime-sponsored. It is unlikely, therefore, that such events take place spontaneously or through something just getting out of control. The fact that those attacks on our two embassy compounds were simultaneous is probably further evidence that they were intentional and premeditated.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
I welcome the Foreign Secretary’s statement and the resolute approach he has taken following such an outrageous development. May I ask him what measures he will take with the states neighbouring Iran to increase and enhance diplomacy?
Mr Hague
We are already engaged in that work. I mentioned the very intensive contact we have had with Turkey in the past 24 hours—nothing unusual in our case, but particularly intense yesterday—and with the Gulf states, many of which are deeply alarmed about the wider behaviour and intentions of Iran, quite apart from this incident. We shall continue and quite possibly step up our diplomatic engagement with all those countries about this most unfortunate turn of events.
John Glen (Salisbury) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend say what contact he has had over the past 24 hours with his US counterpart and what actions, diplomatic or otherwise, the US is considering to support the UK Government’s position?
Mr Hague
We are of course in constant touch with the United States. Secretary Clinton and President Obama have issued very strong statements about this incident. The United States does not have an embassy in Tehran, but the Americans are strongly supportive of the action we are taking and will, of course, reflect that in their wider diplomacy around the globe.
Michael Ellis (Northampton North) (Con)
May I take the opportunity to commend my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary for the robust action that he has taken? It is clearly necessary in view of the hostile, belligerent, anti-Semitic regime in Tehran, which in many respects is clearly a force for evil around the world. I also take this opportunity to commend the sangfroid of the British ambassador in Tehran, who is clearly following in the finest traditions of the diplomatic service. Is there an option for compensation, which I understand the British Government could, under the Vienna protocol, insist on for damage done to its property, which was supposedly under the protection of the Iranian Government?
Mr Hague
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his support. His comments, like those of many other Members, demonstrate the high regard of all parties in the House for the conduct of our diplomats, in particular our ambassador and our chargé d’affaires, both of whom did extremely well. We have already put the question of compensation and the financial liability of the Iranian Government to the Iranian chargé d’affaires, and we shall continue to pursue the matter.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
In my right hon. Friend’s view, is the Government-inspired assault on the British embassy in Tehran indicative of the weakness or the strength of the internal political leadership in Iran?
Mr Hague
My hon. Friend asks a very pertinent and relevant question. Other hon. Members have asked about the increased general repression in Iran in recent months. To the extent that this incident is part of that, I think it is an indication of the weakness of the regime and its fear of local opinion, as well as of international opinion. It should certainly be seen as weakness rather than strength.
Points of Order
Dr Julian Lewis (New Forest East) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. I am sure that hon. Members on both sides of the House appreciated the almost unprecedented opportunity you gave them yesterday to interrogate a senior Cabinet Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, at considerable length. May I ask whether that innovation is a practice that is likely to recur with any regularity?
Mr Speaker
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his point of order. Each case is, of course, considered on its merits, but what I would say to him and to the House is twofold. First, I am always keen to ensure that as many Back-Bench Members as possible should have the opportunity to question Ministers of the Crown. Secondly, as the House will be conscious, I am insistent that statements of policy should first be made to the House of Commons, not outside it. There have been notable breaches of that established protocol and they are a source of concern. To the hon. Gentleman I say explicitly that yesterday I was particularly keen to ensure a full airing of the issues, not least because I wished to hear whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer had anything to say in the Chamber that he had not already said in the media. I hope that that response to his point of order satisfies the hon. Gentleman’s curiosity.
Mr John Spellar (Warley) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. Yesterday, you said:
“All hon. Members, including Ministers, are responsible for the content and accuracy of the statements they make to the House. If an error has been made it is the responsibility of the Member who made it to correct it.”—[Official Report, 29 November 2011; Vol. 536, c. 848.]
On Monday, the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham (Daniel Kawczynski) said, reported at column 709 of Hansard,
“The shadow Foreign Secretary did not mention Libya once in this whole conversation, and one wonders why”.—[Official Report, 29 November 2011; Vol. 536, c. 709.]
Yet my right hon. Friend the Member for Paisley and Renfrewshire South (Mr Alexander) had clearly dealt with Libya, as reported at column 695. Yesterday, I drew that to the hon. Gentleman’s attention, hoping that he would have the courtesy to apologise for inadvertently misleading the House and to set the record straight. I cannot see that he did so in yesterday’s Hansard. Has he indicated to you that he intends to do so today, Mr Speaker? If he has not, how can we ensure that the correct position is placed on the record?
Mr Speaker
I have had no such indication from the hon. Member for Shrewsbury and Atcham. When the right hon. Gentleman asks by what means he can secure redress, I think that he has found his own salvation, courtesy of his point of order. Although I am certainly not going to instruct anybody to come to the House—Members must take responsibility for what they do—there is nothing wrong with apologies from time to time. They are on the whole good for the soul, I think.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
On a point of order, Mr Speaker. During questions on the statement from my right hon. Friend the Minister for the Cabinet Office and Paymaster General, the hon. Member for Derby North (Chris Williamson) accused this Government and my party of being anti-public service. Given the number of Members on this side of the House who have served our country, for example in schools, hospitals, embassies and all three armed forces, may I ask you whether his comment was in order or should be withdrawn?
Mr Speaker
I was indulgent to the hon. Member for Gloucester (Richard Graham) because I wished to listen to his mellifluous tone, but I have to tell him that nothing disorderly took place, and what he has just put to me—I say this in the most courteous possible way—constitutes not a point of order, but a point of outrage. We will leave it there for today.
Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)
It is many years since I raised a point of order, Mr Speaker, but further to the point of order raised by the hon. Member for New Forest East (Dr Lewis), may I say that one of the primary purposes of Parliament is to hold the Executive to account? I as a Back Bencher and, I believe, many Back Benchers on both sides of the House greatly value the opportunity to question Ministers on their statements. Had you not allowed the questioning to continue until after 3 o’clock yesterday, I would not have been called. I am incredibly grateful to you for allowing so many Back Benchers to put the points they wanted to put to the Government.
Mr Speaker
I thank the hon. Gentleman. The fact that there is a glow of contentment on his face warms the cockles of my heart. I think we should probably quit while we are ahead and move on.
Hairdressers Registration (Amendment)
14:41 - The House divided: - Ayes: 63 / Noes: 67 - Question accordingly negatived.
David Morris (Morecambe and Lunesdale) (Con)
I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Hairdressers (Registration) Act 1964 to provide for the mandatory registration of hairdressers with the Hairdressing Council; to empower the Hairdressing Council to issue and charge for licences to hairdressers holding certain qualifications; to provide for the removal of names from the register by the Hairdressing Council on the recommendation of its investigating and disciplinary committees; to introduce a scale of fines payable by those without a licence charging for hairdressing services; and for connected purposes.
It is a privilege to address the House on what I believe is a very important measure. This proposed amendment to the Hairdressers (Registration) Act 1964 is supported by the whole hairdressing industry and has attracted huge media interest. As hon. Members have probably seen in the newspapers—tabloid and broadsheet—the Bill has captured the imagination. Believe it or not, any one of us in the House, and indeed anyone outside it, could set up a hairdressing business tomorrow, practise as a hairdresser, and charge money for doing so.
As has been revealed in the newspapers, especially during recent weeks, hairdressers can use products that are very corrosive and dangerous and which, in some instances, can cause death. Unfortunately that has been happening for many years, and indeed it has happened during the past four weeks. Last night I met a lady to whom, thankfully, it had not happened, but she had had her hair straightened and dyed on the same day, which had caused burns to her scalp, made her hair snap off, and caused her face to puff up to twice its normal size. The poor girl, who was getting married in a week, had to get married a week later.
As I have said, the whole industry backs my Bill. There have been some quips in the media, and from certain Members of Parliament, but I want this to be an apolitical issue, and I have received much support from Members on both sides of the House. However, I ask every Member to bear in mind that the hairdressing industry in his or her constituency employs some 2,500 people who rely on that industry for their living. It puts £5 billion into the economy each year, and the amendment that I propose is supported by the Hair and Beauty Industry Authority, City and Guilds, the Freelance Hair and Beauty Federation, the Hairdressing and Beauty Suppliers Association, the Fellowship for British Hairdressing, and the National Hairdressers’ Federation, to name but a few.
Let me make clear that if there is a Division today, it will not be more of a division than a parting. [Hon. Members: “Oh!”] I had to get that one in before anyone else did.
Here are the facts. The 1964 Act came into being during the dying days of the Douglas-Home Government and has not been updated for nearly 50 years, although times have changed for the hairdressing industry. The Act set out a framework for education which governed my generation and which is now more or less standard—it is necessary to gain national vocational or, in my case, City and Guilds qualifications—but the Act has never been given teeth.
As I said, my former industry has a turnover of £5 billion. It has been established that 245,000 people—1% of the United Kingdom’s working population—work in the industry at NVQ level 3 or above. There are 34,000 salons out there, and 50% of women have their hair coloured, as well as a number of men. I am sure that some Members who are present would attest to that.
The Bill is vital because, first and foremost, it would remove from the industry unqualified individuals who harm people. When someone goes to a hairdresser, they want to know that the person working on their hair is not just qualified but experienced in using products which, as I said at the outset, can cause serious damage and often do. I was a hairdresser for 28 years before I entered the House. I was known in my time as Mr Fixit, and believe me, I encountered some horror stories. Women came into my salon with their hair dyed sky-blue pink—if, that is, it was still on their heads. One can imagine the psychological impact that that can have.
When I toured the hairdressing colleges in the north of England, one lady said to me “Everyone uses the NHS—people know where to go when something goes wrong medically—but those who have a psychological problem because their hair has turned a funny colour, has snapped off or has been burnt, and who have thus effectively been assaulted, do not know where to go.” There is no registration to enable disciplinary procedures to be carried out, and to point people in the direction of those who can ensure that their hair is sorted out. The Association of Personal Injury Lawyers supports the Bill, not only because it will help to professionalise the industry but because it will cut out frivolous litigation.
It was good to see Members in all parts of the House attending the reception that I held here yesterday. It was a wholly apolitical occasion, and it was amazing to hear of the problems experienced by Members as well as staff. Some people who talked to me had been in the hairdressing industry themselves, and were able to tell good stories as well as bad.
We already have a charter in the form of the 1964 Act, but, although it contains some good legislation, it is defunct for today’s purposes. I want the Hairdressing Council to have mandatory powers to require state registration. I want the 6,500 hairdressers who have registered voluntarily, and who are very professional, to become 250,000. That would professionalise the industry. It took me five years to learn my craft, which is comparable to the time that it takes to qualify as a solicitor. I went on to study trichology for a further two years, which is comparable to the time taken to qualify as a vet or any other member of the medical profession. I believe that the hairdressing profession should be given more accolades and should be turned from an industry or vocation into a profession, because that is what it deserves. [Hon. Members: “Hear, hear.” ] I thank hon. Members for that.
Perhaps this will be my legacy to the profession that I joined, but let me stress that this is not about David Morris trying to introduce legislation for his old industry. I think it fair to say that I am the only hairdresser in the House—indeed, the only hairdresser ever to reach the House—so I can speak with authority about my former trade, or profession, but my point is this. It is now 2011; may we please give the Hairdressing Council full powers to keep a register of hairdressers who are professional, and to strike off those who are negligent?
Mr David Nuttall (Bury North) (Con)
I oppose the motion because I consider the status quo to be entirely appropriate. I will not detain the House for long, because my arguments are fairly straightforward.
First, I believe that the Bill would place an unnecessary burden on hairdressers, and I do not believe that there is any demand for it. I can honestly say that I have not received a single inquiry about this since my election, and that not once during the many years for which I campaigned to win a seat in Parliament did a single person raise the issue of hairdressing regulation. I think that the last thing British business needs at present is yet more rules and regulations. We do not want to criminalise hairdressers for simply not having a licence.
No doubt the proposed office for hairdressing regulation will soon become known as Ofcut. What we have not heard is what the cost of a licence from Ofcut would be, but I do know that it would mean either reduced profits for hairdressers or, more likely, increased costs for those who wished to use a hairdresser.
I see no reason why the present situation cannot continue. Most people are quite capable of asking around and finding out who is the best hairdresser in the locality. It is, of course, currently possible for hairdressers to register voluntarily with the Hairdressing Council, and to display their City and Guilds and NVQ certificates on the wall so that potential clients can see what level of expertise they possess. Of course, there have been tragic cases in which treatments and hairdressing processes have gone wrong, but I would venture to submit that even if all this new regulation were introduced, such mistakes would still be made. We have only to look around other regulated professions to see that that is the case. I was formerly in the legal profession. Solicitors are highly regulated but, as we all know, many people have suffered either financial or other loss as a result of difficulties with solicitors.
The mere fact that some form of regulation is introduced will not rid the country of the problems that my hon. Friend the Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (David Morris) described. If problems do occur at the hairdresser’s, anyone has redress through the criminal justice system. I believe that what we need is self-regulation and not state regulation, which is why I oppose the motion.
Question put (Standing Order No. 23).
Opposition Day
Living Standards
(13 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
18:59 - The House divided: - Ayes: 226 / Noes: 293 - Question accordingly negatived.
Mr Liam Byrne (Birmingham, Hodge Hill) (Lab)
I beg to move,
That this House believes that the Government is out of touch and does not understand the impact of its policies, including the Autumn Statement, on children, parents, women and hard-working families; and further believes that these policies have resulted in a squeeze on households’ living standards.
I speak for many in the House when I say that I feel a debt to the hon. Member for Morecambe and Lunesdale (David Morris) for his bringing his 10-minute Bill before the House. I had no idea that it was so dangerous to go into a hairdresser’s, and I certainly will not return to one until his Bill becomes law. I do not know if I can speak for the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions too, but it is good to start debates on a note of consensus.
The verdict is now in. It is time to put all the excuses of the past few months—the snow, the cold, the royal wedding, the Japanese earthquake—to one side. We now see the true extent to which the Chancellor has drained the life out of the economy and its recovery. The Government are fundamentally failing to get our economy back on the move, and they demand of working people, parents and children that they should pay the price of the Government’s economic failure.
Yesterday, the Chancellor could no longer hide behind excuses. The Office for Budget Responsibility laid out the truth. Families, pensioners and businesses across the country have known for some time that his plan is hurting, but yesterday they found out that it is not working.
Mr Byrne
I will give way in a moment.
The Government are now set to put on the national credit card £158 billion more than they planned a year ago—£6,500 for every house in this country. Why? It is because they are planning to put on the dole another 250,000 people over the next year or two. They are bringing down the number of people in jobs by 300,000, and they have put up the benefits bill—that sign of welfare waste—by an incredible £29 billion over the forecast period.
Once upon a time, the Chancellor told us that we were all in this together. Not any more—it is back to the economics of, “You are on your own.”
Mr Byrne
I will give way in a moment. There are not too many speakers on the Treasury Bench today, so there will be plenty of time for interventions.
Let us consider what the Chancellor’s proposals mean for jobs. The OBR now predicts that unemployment will rise next year, and unemployment forecasts for the years ahead are up year after year until 2015. The Government say that there is no alternative, because they still believe that unemployment is a price worth paying. Unemployment is bad this year, but it will be worse in the years ahead: the OBR said yesterday that it will rise up to 8.7%, while youth unemployment already stands at over 1 million. The brutal price that our young people are paying for the Government’s failure to get people back to work is now clear to hon. Members across the House. Those young people will be at the sharp end of rising unemployment in the years ahead. I will give way to the hon. Member for Devizes (Claire Perry), who will perhaps tell me how the Government can do more to get down youth unemployment in her constituency.
Claire Perry
Does the right hon. Gentleman think that the words, “There is no money,” were sufficient excuse, or is that actually a fact?
Mr Byrne
The Chancellor said yesterday that he is putting £158 billion more on the national credit card—£8 billion more borrowing than I and my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) set out. The Government are set to borrow £37 billion more than we set out in the Budget before the election. The tragedy is that 7,700 people in the hon. Lady’s constituency will see their tax credits cut next year to pay for the failure of those on her Front Bench to get this country back to work.
Mr Byrne
I will give way in a moment.
There have been announcements in the past few days, not, sadly, from the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, but from the Deputy Prime Minister, who announced the youth contract, which is set to be so successful that the OBR said yesterday that it cannot count on its getting any extra people into jobs. All that we have had this week from the Minister for unemployment is a decision to blame the figures—it is all down to the statistics, not his failure to get people back to work.
Long-term unemployment among young people is going through the roof—it is up 83% this year alone—but another jobs crisis is emerging up and down the country among our most experienced workers. Among the over-50s, long-term unemployment is more than 110,000—up 20% since the start of the year. People with experience to offer, who have worked hard and paid in all their lives, deserve better than to be thrown on the scrap heap.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
The right hon. Gentleman’s premise is that the Opposition would not have borrowed more money, but that is fundamentally false, as the reality is that they would have borrowed billions more to deal with the eurozone crisis. In addition, interest rates would have been higher, costing home owners more money on their mortgages.
Mr Byrne
I know that the hon. Gentleman takes these matters seriously, and that he will feel bad about the fact that 10,000 families in his constituency are seeing cuts to their tax credits to pay for the failure of his Front Bench to get people back to work. He is such an assiduous attender of these debates that he will know as well as I do that the OBR’s analysis of our last Budget showed that we were set to borrow £37 billion less than the Chancellor set out to the House yesterday. He should explain that to the 10,000 families in his constituency who are seeing a cut in tax credits.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
The right hon. Gentleman is being generous, as ever, in giving way. I remind him, however, that there is obviously a split between him and the shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury, because on yesterday’s BBC programme “The Daily Politics”, she was asked this specifically:
“If you had been writing the autumn statement, borrowing would have been higher? Yes or no.”
Her answer was yes.
Mr Byrne
We do happen to believe that further action is needed to get people back to work, because we are now seeing the costs of the right hon. Gentleman’s Government over the past year and a half. We have now seen the Chancellor set out £158 billion of extra borrowing because he has drained the recovery of growth and put the benefits bill up over the course of this Parliament by £24 billion. That is the only part of his budget that is growing.
Mr Dave Watts (St Helens North) (Lab)
Does my right hon. Friend not find it strange that Government Members talk only about deficit? They do not talk about unemployment, poverty or growth. Do we not need a more balanced approach to the problem?
Angie Bray (Ealing Central and Acton) (Con)
As I have found before, the right hon. Gentleman does not like history. The fact is that a note was left saying, “There’s no money left,” and that had consequences. This country is living and breathing the consequences of how Labour managed the budget. We are in deficit, which is why we talk about it so often, and it is about time the Labour party recognised the consequences of the way in which it managed this country’s finances.
Mr Byrne
Perhaps the hon. Lady’s memory of history is suddenly faltering, because she should surely remember that in the Chancellor’s emergency Budget, borrowing turned out to be £20 billion less than my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West projected when he was Chancellor. Unlike his, the Conservatives’ borrowing forecasts have come in £158 billion higher than originally projected. That means thousands of pounds more for every household in this country—and of course, the price of the consequences is being paid by the hon. Lady’s constituents. More than 7,000 families in her constituency are now seeing their tax credits cut to pay the higher bills of higher unemployment.
Ms Karen Buck (Westminster North) (Lab)
Can we turn from history to current affairs? One of the key messages from the Government was that they were going to make work pay. Following from my right hon. Friend’s argument about how additional spending is being generated because of the failure of their policies, would he comment on the fact that in-work benefits for working households, such as housing benefit for those in work, have risen by 42% since the general election, as 115,000 more households have been forced on to in-work benefits?
Mr Byrne
That underlines an extremely important point, and I hope that in the Secretary of State’s response he will say a little more about how he reconciles the “Budget” that we heard yesterday with his own honourable intention to ensure that work pays. Right now, in my constituency, I have working parents, especially women, coming to me and saying that they are now giving up work—because the Government are cutting benefits, meaning that it is no longer economic to work. Surely that cannot be right.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
Does the shadow Minister not find it strange that the Government argue that if we were to borrow to stimulate the economy the money markets would go mad and put up interest rates, yet the markets seem to have no problem in lending us money to pay for unemployment?
Andrew Percy (Brigg and Goole) (Con)
May I take the shadow Secretary of State back to the subject of youth unemployment? Doubtless the previous Government did some very good things in that area—they did some very bad things as well—but does he admit that the present situation was not created overnight? When Labour left office there was an upward trend in unemployment—[Interruption.] For youth unemployment, there was an upward trend from 2004. Does he accept that under Labour the number of children brought up in workless families hit record levels and the gap between the best performing and the worst performing schools widened? What he is saying is political knockabout, but this is a long-term issue, which deserves to be treated seriously.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. Interventions are getting longer, and a lot of Members wish to speak. Please let us not use up the time on interventions.
Mr Byrne
I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman is simply wrong. Youth unemployment was coming down before the election; it has now gone through the roof, since his party took office. It is now up through the 1 million mark for the first time. Long-term youth unemployment in this country is up 83% since the start of the year. He would surely admit that that is a badge of shame for this Government, and demands much more urgent action from them.
George Freeman
Does the Opposition spokesman agree that his authority to talk about this subject would be heightened if it were not for the fact that during the previous 10 years, before his party lost office, youth unemployment rose to a quarter of a million—and that was during a boom? His authority to talk about this is hugely reduced by that track record.
Mr Byrne
Youth unemployment came down to record lows under the Labour Government. It was coming down before the election, because we chose to act. Now the key back-to-work scheme for young people has been taken off the shelf for the past year and a half. What is the result? Youth unemployment in the hon. Gentleman’s constituency is going up. He should explain that to young people in his constituency, and he should apologise to them. The back-to-work scheme set out by the Deputy Prime Minister last week is not even planned to come into place until next April. That shows how much his party cares about getting young people back to work.
Mr Byrne
I shall give way in a moment.
The weakness in the jobs market is not abstract; it shows up in people’s pay packets. That is exactly what the Office for Budget Responsibility confirmed yesterday. Earnings, it says, are now set to fall throughout the rest of this Parliament. By 2016 wages will be no higher than they were in 2001—£1,400 below their pre-crash peak—yet prices are not falling; they are rising. Prices are going up over the course of this Parliament. Wages are falling and prices are rising. That double whammy is now hurting families all over this country.
Not long ago, the Governor of the Bank of England said that we in this country now confront the worst squeeze on living standards since the 1920s. Yesterday, the Institute for Fiscal Studies said that the squeeze was “unprecedented”. This is the biggest fall in household income since records began. With our nation’s family budgets under such pressure, we would have thought that the Government would step in to help. Not a bit of it. Instead, working families are being asked to pick up the pieces.
Mr Redwood
The right hon. Gentleman is making a very important point—that a big squeeze on living standards started under his party’s Government. It is continuing under the coalition. As the forecasts make clear, a big element in that is energy and fuel prices. Does he have any proposals that the Government could adopt to tackle that problem?
Mr Byrne
We do think that Government should be doing more in the energy market to help to bring down prices. The right hon. Gentleman will, I know, feel strongly about that, because of the 6,500 families in his constituency who are now seeing cuts in tax credits.
When wages are falling and prices are rising, people would expect the Government to do more to help, but what we now have is a budget set out yesterday that tightens the squeeze on working families. Last Friday the Deputy Prime Minister blustered his way through an interview on the radio and said, once again:
“We will not balance the books…on the backs of the poorest”.
That is an old line, and today it rings pretty hollow, because that is exactly what the Government are doing.
Yesterday, the Government rejected any new tax on bankers’ bonuses. Instead, it is children, women and working parents who are picking up the tab for the Government’s failure to get people back to work.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
My right hon. Friend is making the case extremely well about the unfairness of what the Government announced in the autumn statement about targeting those on lower and middle incomes instead of targeting the bankers and the bonuses—a move that was successful under Labour and should be repeated by the present Government. He was asked about prices, and I am sure that he will soon say something about cutting VAT as an effective way of helping hard-pressed families through reduced prices.
Mr Byrne
I will indeed come on to that topic in a moment, but I first want to talk about the impact on children of yesterday’s Budget. We knew before yesterday’s Budget that all the gains made in reducing child poverty over the last decade were set to be wiped out by the decisions of just the last year. Once upon a time the Prime Minister told us he would not increase child poverty. That was the rhetoric, but today the Institute for Fiscal Studies has given us the reality. It has already said that almost one in four children will be in poverty by the end of the decade, thanks to this Government. That was before the attack on working families in yesterday’s Budget. A generation of children will not thank this Government because hundreds of thousands more of them are now destined to grow up poor.
Then we had yesterday’s Budget, reversing any improvement in child tax credit for the poorest, and robbing 5.5 million families of £110 per child. There will now be 13 cuts to children’s benefits beginning in March, which next year will take out £2.5 billion in benefits for children. That is almost eight times the level of benefit cuts this year. Almost £12 billion is coming out of children’s benefits over the course of this Parliament; that is £1.5 billion more than is coming off our nation’s bankers. I therefore have to ask this question: what kind of Government take more off children than they take off bankers?
Nick de Bois
Does the right hon. Gentleman not recall that in his Government’s 13 years in office between 1997 and 2010 they increased personal tax allowances by only £2,400, whereas in only 18 months we have increased people’s earnings by raising those allowances by £1,800, and we will go further by the end of this Parliament by raising the figure to £10,000? Is that not a major contribution to addressing lower pay?
Mr Byrne
No, because what comes with that is the biggest raid ever on the benefits of children and families. Let us consider the bill that will be paid by families under yesterday’s announcements. An average family on the minimum wage with two kids will lose £320 a year as a result of the changes made yesterday. They would only ever gain £120 a year through the increases in tax thresholds to which the hon. Gentleman referred. Overwhelmingly, poorer families and children in this country are now getting poorer as a result of his Government’s Budget.
No wonder Save the Children said yesterday:
“For many families the scrapped £110 increase in Child Tax Credit could mean the difference between putting food on the table for their children or having them go hungry.”
The Child Poverty Action Group said:
“Britain’s poorest families have been abandoned today and left to face the worst…the government has actively decided to let child poverty rise.”
Those on the Treasury Bench should be ashamed of themselves; they should be ashamed of what they have done to children in this country. Labour will be the party that stands up for a fair deal for working parents.
The scale of the cuts to children’s benefits is not the only story. There is more. Let us consider the cuts to working tax credits for working families. Working families are already in line for seven big cuts to their tax credits next year. That was going to lose them more than £1.7 billion, but that was not enough for the Chancellor, so yesterday they got an eighth cut to their working tax credits. They will now lose almost £2 billion next year. That is almost double the cuts they received last year.
Some 2 million families in our country now face a double hit, with the cuts to child tax credits and the freezing of the working tax credit. There is therefore a great deal of extra squeeze that will hit working families, but I want to flag up one cut in particular. It is the subject of a Westminster Hall debate secured by my hon. Friend the Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds), and I want the Secretary of State to reflect on it further, as I think it will have consequences that he would not intend. One of the changes he will make next year is to increase the number of hours a working couple must work in order to get tax credits. At present, they can qualify for tax credits if they work 16 hours a week. From next April, they will need to work 24 hours a week. At present, however, companies are not handing out extra shifts. Many families that will be affected work in the retail sector. If anything, big retailers are cutting back on their employees’ hours, not increasing them. A family that is on the minimum wage for 16 hours a week might bring in just over £5,000. Working tax credits and child tax credit might increase their take-home pay to about £11,000. If they cannot get an extra shift, all of that working tax credit will be gone. Those families may well find themselves better off on jobseeker’s allowance.
We must not create a situation in which cuts to tax credits mean families are better off on benefits than in work. I am sure that is not the Secretary of State’s intention, and I urge him to look at this matter in more detail before those cuts bite in April next year.
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)
I am trying to follow the right hon. Gentleman’s reasoning. I think he has argued so far that people out of work should not face cuts and that people in work should not face cuts, so who should?
Mr Byrne
The Pensions Minister should reflect on the following point. When we add together the cuts to children’s benefits and the cuts to families’ working tax credits, the total is £20 billion over the course of this Parliament. That is twice the amount of money his party is taking off the country’s bankers. Surely he would reflect on the wisdom of taking more off children and working parents than off bankers? I think he should reflect on that further.
Sajid Javid
I thank the right hon. Gentleman for giving way. When he left office, why did he leave a note saying there was no money left?
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Lindsay Hoyle)
Order. The hon. Member for Devizes (Claire Perry) is pushing her luck today. She has already intervened, and I do not mind her rising to seek to do so again, but continually to stand up and barrack is not the way forward. She has a great future in this House, and I am sure she wants to protect it.
Mr Byrne
Finally, I want to talk about the impact on women of these Budget changes. The shadow Home Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper), will say more on this in her winding-up speech. She has already set out with clarity and force how the Budget changes made by this Government have, overwhelmingly, hit women harder than men. I would just highlight to Members, and especially those on the Treasury Bench, the comment made yesterday by the hon. Member for Calder Valley (Craig Whittaker). He put it very simply when he said that of course women are paying the price most. At least someone on the Government Benches has the honesty to tell it straight. He was right: women are being hit hardest by these Budget changes, not least through the changes to child care. Some 30,000 women in this country have had to give up work in the last year because they can no longer afford the child care. That is £50 million in lost tax to the Exchequer. What a shambles.
The tragedy in this debate is that there is a different way. We have set out a different way of jump-starting growth and getting people back into work. Yes, it does start with a tax—a fair and sensible tax—on bankers’ bonuses to help get 100,000 young people back to work. What have this Government proposed instead? They have proposed a fund of about one third of the size, paid for not by those with blessings to share, but by children and families who are already feeling the squeeze. That decision alone tells us everything we need to know about who this Government stand for. That decision alone tells us how out of touch this Government have now become, and it is for that decision if no other that I say this House should support our motion.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions (Mr Iain Duncan Smith)
I am tempted to ask, “Is that it?”, but perhaps I will not.
Yesterday, the Office for Budget Responsibility published its forecasts for the UK economy over the coming years, which painted a very difficult picture: Britain is expected to grow this year by 0.9% and next year by 0.7%; growth is forecast at 2.1% in 2013, 2.7% in 2014, 3% in 2015 and 3% again in 2016. The OBR showed that in 2009-10 borrowing was £156 billion a year. Last year, that fell to £137 billion. This year, the OBR expects it to fall again to £127 billion.
The OBR did not just publish forecasts. It did us a favour, because it looked back and reopened the books on the era of the previous Government, and an important factor emerged. It told us that an even bigger component of the growth that preceded the financial crisis was part of an unsustainable boom, and that the bust was deeper and had an even greater impact on our economy than previously thought, meaning that the effects will last even longer. It said:
“The peak-to-trough fall in output over the recession is now estimated to have been greater than previously thought at 7.1% rather than 6.4%”
That is a huge change to the figures. It found that from near the end of 2010 we were taking a serious hit from rising global food and energy prices.
I want to add a further quotation from the OBR as these matters form the baselines of our debate today:
“Most of the weakness can be explained by an external inflation shock”.
Its third point is that the eurozone crisis is
“likely to have contributed to weaker UK growth and business and consumer confidence.”
Mr Duncan Smith
I hope they will attach no credibility if they were our forecasts. We set up the OBR—an independent body that Opposition Members accepted—and its forecasts are about as good as we shall get, so we should give it credibility for at least trying to get the forecasts right. That is a damn sight better than the past 12 years of gerrymandered Treasury figures, not one of which had any credibility.
Sheila Gilmore (Edinburgh East) (Lab)
The Secretary of State quotes from the OBR, so he might like to add that it stated that we came out of recession quicker and that growth had increased by the first part of 2010. The OBR made its predictions before the autumn statement. Last year, it made its predictions before the statement. Its predictions were wrong, because the Government’s policies were wrong. Its dire predictions this year were made before this new set of policies.
Mr Duncan Smith
I am grateful for the intervention, as it allows me to remind the hon. Lady that in looking back at the period in the run-up to and start of the recession the OBR said the depth of boom and bust was greater than was anticipated—by more than 1%. The baseline from which we started, therefore, was much lower, which means, as is seen by the Treasury, that the amount we would have had to borrow would have been more than £100 billion if we had not taken our decisions early on. Labour Members’ posturing about their own position is fundamentally incorrect, and they must recognise that.
The OBR said that the eurozone crisis is
“likely to have contributed to weaker UK growth and business and consumer confidence.”
I know that Labour Members do not like to hear that that is an issue, but it is seen by everybody, not least of which the OBR.
Stella Creasy (Walthamstow) (Lab/Co-op)
We all welcomed the establishment of the OBR because of the independence it gives. The full quotation from the OBR states that
“an external inflation shock constraining real household consumption”
is the reason for the revision in growth forecasts. How does the Secretary of State think that bearing down further on family incomes will help our economy to grow again?
Mr Duncan Smith
The reality, as the OBR and the Institute for Fiscal Studies make very clear, is that you cannot borrow your way out of a debt crisis. I know that Opposition Members are indulging in voodoo economics—a fake religion—but almost every economist abroad and at home says that you cannot borrow your way out of a debt crisis.
Charlie Elphicke
I was just looking at Labour’s five points for growth, which would cost a lot, would require us to borrow from the markets, and would drive up mortgage rates for hard-pressed home owners. Would that not be irresponsible and reckless?
Mr Duncan Smith
The answer, very simply, is that, yes, it would be.
Yesterday, there was much jeering about the issue of Europe. The Opposition say one thing one day, move on and then say another. I remind the shadow Chancellor, who is not here today, of something he said in July:
“We need to face up to today’s problems. When you see Italian and Spanish bond spreads you can see the situation is incredibly dangerous”—
and that came from a man who yesterday said that we cannot blame anything on the European crisis. That is absurd, and the Opposition must get their act together over the reasons we are where we are.
Mr Duncan Smith
I want to make a little progress, but then I will give way.
Whatever we say, in government or in opposition, I fancy that were the previous Chancellor in office he would be saying many of the things that my right hon. Friend the Chancellor said yesterday, because once in government people become strangely rational, and that leads to difficult choices. We can play party games, but I want to run through some of the choices we have had to make. We had to choose whether to invest more in supporting young people, and we chose to invest in the youth contract—about £1 billion over the next three years. That was an absolute priority for us, so we had to tighten two or three other areas to enable us to provide that support. These are tough choices. If we had a pot of money to raid, yes, we might have raided it, but there is none, as the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) reminded us on leaving office.
Unemployment is therefore a huge challenge for us—it is why we set up the Work programme. None the less, the OBR estimates that private sector employment will rise by 1.7 million by 2016, largely offsetting the forecast reduction in public sector employment.
Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr Duncan Smith
I will give way in a moment. I promised I would give way to the hon. Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson), too.
The growth plan proposes £6.3 billion of additional infrastructure, £1 billion for new regulated industries and moves, with the Association of British Insurers, to target a further £20 billion of extra investment.
Bill Esterson
I wonder whether the right hon. Gentleman believes in fairness. I expect he will say he does. If so, why do the Government’s policies target low income families much more than those at the top?
Mr Duncan Smith
I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman. I am talking about choices. I remember a great deal of debate, even in the Select Committee, about whether the working-age unemployed would see their benefits reduced. Everybody said it would happen; newspapers predicted it. In fact, my right hon. Friend the Chancellor has stuck to increasing them by CPI at 5.2%—just one good example of making a choice about who would be affected most direly by any change or any reduction. That was a bold choice and one on which we should congratulate him.
Mr Byrne
I am grateful to the Secretary of State and I am following his argument closely. Further to the intervention from my hon. Friend, the right hon. Gentleman will no doubt have seen the analysis from the Institute for Fiscal Studies this morning. If it is true that the Government are not hitting the poorest families harder, why has the IFS said that for 2012-13 the poorest three deciles in this country are being hit three times harder than the overall average?
Mr Duncan Smith
According to the findings of the IFS and of the Treasury, the top decile pays a huge amount more in relative terms than anybody else. [Interruption]. Hon. Members should listen. Taking account of uprating, about 80% of households with children will see their tax credit awards rise at least in line with earnings next year. Members can pluck little bits out, but when they average it across, they will see that there have been some choices.
I am quite prepared to recognise that the pressure on the bottom deciles will always be tougher and harder because of where they spend their money. That is not the issue. The issue is, within the bounds of what we could afford, what were we trying to protect? The decisions we took and the changes we made, which I will come to in a moment, mean that we have protected the most vulnerable as well as we could and better than the Opposition would have done, had they been in power.
Mr Byrne
I am grateful to the Secretary of State. He is being most generous. The IFS was pretty clear this morning. It said that the richest decile would see an impact of just over 0.5%. The poorest decile would see an impact of minus 1.6%. So it is clear that the poorer families in this country are being hit much, much harder than the richer ones.
Mr Duncan Smith
I am sorry, those are not the figures that I have. The figures on the chart that I am looking at show that the richest decile has a greater proportion of its income taken, even in relative terms. Yes, I accept that, relatively, those in the bottom three deciles do quite badly in many senses, but the right hon. Gentleman should look at the Treasury figures, which show that the wealthiest decile do worse than anybody else, in absolute and in relative terms.
Mr Duncan Smith
I am going to move on.
The commitments made by the Chancellor in the previous Budget have to be taken into consideration, along with the ones that I have mentioned. The new offer on child care comes on top of our expansion of free nursery education for all three and four-year-olds. We are already set on a path of far-reaching reform in our welfare system, getting work incentives back in order and delivering a system that people finally understand. We will do this through the universal credit, which will in two years rebalance any of the out-of-work incentives that got out of balance, so that work pays.
The Opposition had 13 years to make the kind of changes that we are making. We have already got them under way. They will take about 350,000 children and more than 500,000 adults out of poverty. Some £7.2 billion has been invested in the fairness premium, including the pupil premium, to support the poorest in the early years and at every stage in their education. We have invested in 4,200 new health visitors.
Almost none of those changes is taken into consideration in the rather narrow way of measuring who is in poverty and who is not in poverty, particularly child poverty. This is an important point. I spoke earlier about the money and the effort that we are putting in for the poorest. The wide range of steps that we have taken is, on balance, positive. None of those has been taken into account because it is not possible at this stage to calculate the effect, but I want to do that and we ought to do so.
Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)
The right hon. Gentleman’s heart is in the right place, but his head is in the clouds. We can argue over definitions and data, but let me read to him the response of the chief executive of Citizens Advice, who says:
“The Chancellor has broken the promise he made in last year’s Budget to protect families on the lowest incomes from the impact of last year’s harsh cuts by increasing child tax credits above inflation, leaving them now with no protection at all… Make no mistake, this—
yesterday’s announcements—
“means children in the poorest homes are at risk of going cold and hungry to pay for the new schemes the Chancellor has announced today”.
Why do the poorest in society have to pay for the schemes that were announced yesterday? The right hon. Gentleman’s heart is in the right place, but he has not thought this through.
Mr Duncan Smith
It is not just the poorest who are paying. Everyone will have to bear a proportion, because everybody is going to pay for this. Yesterday the Opposition claimed that the shocks that caused inflation are not relevant, yet today they stand there and tell us that it is all down to inflation. They need to make up their minds which case they want to mount first.
Mr Redwood
Will my right hon. Friend confirm that it is his strong intention always to make sure that it is worth while working, and will he bring us up to date on the progress and timetable on that?
Mr Duncan Smith
I will indeed. The point I was making was that, as the universal credit comes forward in the next two years, it will do huge amounts to ensure that the incentives to return to work are improved. Secondly—and this relates to complaints from Opposition Members about the tax credit—it will reset the baseline so that those incentives will be increased and improved. Had we remained in the same position as the previous Government with their tax credits, there would be no way back for us now.
Kate Green (Stretford and Urmston) (Lab)
I am well aware that the Secretary of State has great hopes for the universal credit to incentivise people into paid employment, but does he accept that the cumulative effect of last year’s Budget and spending review, this year’s Budget and yesterday’s statement is that the incentives to work for low-paid employees have been worsened as a result of the reduction in support for child care costs through the tax credit, the cut in child benefit, the freezing of the lone parent and couples element of tax credits and the fact that it is all set against a rise in living costs that families cannot afford to meet?
Mr Duncan Smith
Seen over the whole period of this Parliament, and taking into account things such as lifting the tax allowances, the commitment of the coalition to lift them further before the end of the Parliament, and a whole variety of the points that I have already laid out, I do not agree with the hon. Lady. When Opposition Members look back, they will realise that the introduction of the universal credit will result in positive work incentives and we will get people back to work, as we are already doing.
I have already mentioned some of the things that have been introduced in the past year and a half, and yesterday the Chancellor also announced reforms to support working families which no Opposition Member has taken into consideration. We have deferred the fuel duty increase planned for January and cancelled the inflation increase planned for August 2012. The tax on petrol will be a full 10p lower than it would have been without our action in the Budget this autumn, and that means that families will save £144 on filling up the average family car by the end of next year. Fuel and the cost of driving are a very big driver of poverty and we are doing something about it. We are also regulating the rise in fares on national rail, the London tube and London buses, and we have already offered councils the resources for another year’s freeze in council tax, which I hope they all take up. Our plans to raise personal tax allowances will pull over 1 million people out of tax altogether, which is a big incentive for people to go back to work. When the Opposition complain about changes to working tax credits, they should remember their punitive decision to abolish the 10p starting rate of tax. They did not care what happened to the poorest in society.
Neil Carmichael (Stroud) (Con)
My right hon. Friend has mentioned the 900,000 people who are being lifted out of income tax altogether. Is that not a significant step in the right direction?
Mr Duncan Smith
I agree with my hon. Friend. The reality is that we are raising people out of tax, while what the Labour Government did by getting rid of the 10p starting rate was to drop more people into higher rates of tax. It was really dismissive, very regressive and attacked the poorest.
John Howell (Henley) (Con)
Is my right hon. Friend as surprised as I am that there has been little or no mention from the Opposition of the benefit to living standards that comes from keeping interest rates low?
Mr Duncan Smith
I was going to come on to that. Had interest rates gone up and had we been paying more for our borrowing, we would all—including those paying mortgages—be poorer.
This debate about living standards is important. Of course, those standards are very tight, and I make no bones about the challenge that we face, but let us not forget where we came from. Let me take the House back to 2007, when personal debt had rocketed to about £1.3 trillion and we had the highest structural deficit in the whole of the G7. That was before the recession began. That is a completely unsustainable picture, and it required very painful readjustment. As my colleagues know, the problem was that we entered the recession ill prepared for the consequences. When Labour Members ratcheted up spending by a massive degree, they simply postponed the inevitable. After all, the IFS forecast for the period 2008-2011 was that living standards would fall by 1.6%. This was a case of a fall in living standards postponed, with pain pushed on to future generations. People do not have to take my word for it—the IFS said:
“Much of the impact of the…recession on UK living standards was not felt until after the economy had stopped contracting, but that…pain was most definitely delayed rather than avoided”.
Claire Perry
Does my right hon. Friend agree that adopting the Opposition’s proposals would just delay that pain further for future generations, and that this debate would be irresponsible in the extreme if we did not think about the living standards of our children and grandchildren?
Mr Duncan Smith
My hon. Friend, not for the first time, hits the nail firmly on the head. The reality is—
Mr Duncan Smith
I will give way in a minute. [Interruption.] Relax—I will give way. The point is that there is a choice: we can either let this thing slide, with higher interest rates and all that goes with that, and let our children pick up the debt and the deficit, or we can deal with this ourselves and give our kids at least a fair chance.
Of course living standards are under a squeeze—we know that—but that is something we utterly regret. Nobody wants to stand here and say that that is the purpose of what we do—it is not—but it is part of what we are having to do, and we need to get living standards up again as fast as we can. The forecasts from the Office for Budget Responsibility show that that will be the case. If Labour Members were being realistic, they would accept that no matter who was in power, standing here, they would have to deal with exactly the same problem.
Catherine McKinnell (Newcastle upon Tyne North) (Lab)
The Secretary of State and the hon. Member for Devizes (Claire Perry) talk about the children of the future, but I would like to bring their attention back to the children of today. Is the Secretary of State aware of recent Government figures that show that the number of children in need this past year has risen by 3,600, with squeezed living standards putting vulnerable families further at risk and pushing more cost on to the state?
Mr Duncan Smith
The children of today are also, more than likely, the children of the future, so we do not want to split hairs about this. Children are children, and as they become adults we do not want them to have to pick up the debt and the deficit that we leave behind. It is all about taking difficult decisions, being honest about what those decisions are, and recognising that if we do not take them now, we will have them forced on us by other people.
Mr Rob Wilson (Reading East) (Con)
May I remind my right hon. Friend of the record of the previous Government, which included imposing a 100% rise in council tax on my constituents, upping the pension rate by a pathetic 75p for our old-age pensioners, and ratcheting up fuel prices? How did that help children and families across our country?
Mr Duncan Smith
I wish that we saw a little more realism from Labour Members in accepting that they were, in many senses, partly the architects of the difficulty that we are in.
Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab)
I find it absolutely incomprehensible that the Secretary of State is able to discard the real pain that is now being suffered by children because of his Government’s bizarre choices based on the argument that they are going to become adults and will then have to pay further down the line. Is he really equating the possibility of a child losing its home, its school, its friends, its family, its support system, and watching its parents having to give up work because they cannot afford child care, with what is going to happen further down the road? That is bizarre.
Mr Duncan Smith
Of course, the hon. Lady would be right if that were what I was saying. What I am saying is quite simple: it is that our responsibility right now is to get the economy back in balance so that children do not have to pick up the debts. Let us remember that the deficit that we are dealing with is the pump that fuels the debt, and that debt is the legacy that we will leave them.
Mr Duncan Smith
Wait a minute—I am trying to answer the hon. Lady. She may not like the answer, but I want to finish it. The reality therefore is, yes, of course, but I think that we have done as much as we can to protect those who are in difficulty.
In answer to the hon. Lady, I should like to list a few things that we have done. Bearing in mind the changes we have made to taxation, more than half of those who will be lifted out of income tax will be women. We are investing an additional £300 million in child care support on top of the £2 billion already being spent. There will be 5,000 mentors to support women entrepreneurs and we are creating the women’s business council to advise Government. There will be up to £2 million to support women to set up and expand businesses in rural areas. We are improving child tax credits this April with a £180 real-terms permanent increase in the child element. Next April, there is an increase of 5.2% and a further £135. We are doubling the number of two-year-old kids who receive 15 hours of free education a week. There is also the £2.5 billion pupil premium. I could go on and on. We are doing huge amounts to try to protect the poorest in society.
Mr Duncan Smith
It is all rail fares, but I do not want to split hairs with the hon. Gentleman about whether he thinks it will help his constituency. I think it will.
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
The Secretary of State talks about protecting women but he will know that House of Commons Library figures show that women are paying two thirds of the contribution in tax and benefit changes. He also said that the personal allowance increase benefits women more than men. Does he admit that the truth is that the Library figures show that while 13,500 women benefited from the personal allowance increase even though it was compensated for by other cuts, 16,800 men benefited, so in fact women are a minority, even from the personal allowance increase that he parades as a change to help women?
Mr Duncan Smith
I can look at the Library’s figures and decide whether they or our figures are correct. We will have a look at them. My view is that the figures that we have show that more women than men benefit from that change. We can debate that if the right hon. Lady likes, but at least she is admitting that, one way or the other, a significant number of women benefit dramatically. That is a good starting point.
I want to move to an important subject. Given that this is an Opposition day debate, I had rather hoped––
Sarah Newton (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
Before we move from the topic of hard-working women such as those in my constituency, especially those on the lowest incomes, who depend on informal care from grandparents, perhaps my right hon. Friend could share with the House the many things we have done to support grandparents on low incomes.
Mr Duncan Smith
I am grateful to my hon. Friend who, as ever, talks sense, and I agree with her.
This is an Opposition day debate and I had hoped to hear something about what they would do to fix things. My right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham (Mr Redwood) asked a very specific question but never received an answer from the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill. We have today had to endure the usual waffle and confusion. On the one hand, the Opposition criticised us yesterday for borrowing too much, but on the other they seem to think that more borrowing is the only way to fix the deficit. The director of the IFS was pretty clear yesterday on the Opposition’s position on borrowing more to spend. He said:
“You would have to believe some pretty surprising things about the way the economy works to think that if you reduce tax by a pound then borrowing would go down rather than up.”
Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with the director?
Mr Duncan Smith
With respect, that is not a policy; that is just a lot of waffle. In reality, what the right hon. Gentleman has to tell us—[Interruption]—and I will give way to him again or to the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper)—is whether he agrees with the shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury, who yesterday said that if the Opposition had made the autumn statement, they would be borrowing more.
Mr Byrne
We think that we could get more people into jobs if we had a temporary cut in VAT to get shoppers back on to the high street; if we cut national insurance for small firms to hire extra workers; if we brought forward infrastructure projects, none of which we saw yesterday; if we cut VAT on home improvements; and if we had a tax on bankers’ bonuses to get 100,000 young people into jobs.
Mr Duncan Smith
Borrowing, borrowing, borrowing. More borrowing—isn’t it wonderful? Interestingly, the Opposition were supposed to say that they would stick to the original Darling plan, but the measures just laid out involve borrowing way above that, because, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham has said, if we look at what the Opposition have opposed, out of all that that we have had to do, we find that the bill now stands at some £91 billion extra a year, or £326 billion for the next five years in which they might have been in government.
These are all the spending cuts that the Opposition have opposed; the VAT position—opposed; welfare savings—opposed; in-year spending cuts—opposed; local government reform—opposed; capital spending on education—opposed; two-year public sector pay freeze— opposed; cuts to capital investment allowances—opposed; increasing public sector employee contributions—opposed; Ministry of Justice reform—opposed; police reform— opposed; DEFRA reform—opposed; cuts to the HMRC budget—opposed. That is not a policy; that is a joke.
Mr Byrne
The truth is that the plan laid out by my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) would have halved the deficit over four years and, according to the OBR, resulted by the end of this Parliament in borrowing £8 billion less than that which the Chancellor set out yesterday. It would have involved borrowing £37 billion less than the Chancellor over the forecast period. The truth is that he has put borrowing through the roof, because he has put welfare through the roof, because he has put unemployment through the roof.
Mr Duncan Smith
The reality is that the OBR yesterday told us categorically that the position in which the Labour Government left us was significantly worse than anybody expected. It also said that unless we had taken the decisions that we took last year, we would be borrowing more than £100 billion in each year of this Parliament. On top of that, the Labour party’s measures would have resulted in even worse, but at least we had a little honesty from the shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury, who said that borrowing would rise because she would borrow more. Given the economic situation, the Treasury estimates that such measures would cost far more—on the back of the OBR figures.
We now know what the Government at the time were doing, and what the Opposition today are about. They are determined to put hard-won interest rates, which we have held down, at risk. Last April, under Labour, our interest rates were higher than Italy’s; 18 months later, we are the only major western country to have seen its credit rating improve. Italy’s interest rates are now about three times ours, despite it having a lower deficit—actually, almost half the deficit that the previous Government left us. So, while the rest of Europe is under intense pressure, the UK remains a safe haven and the Labour Opposition are completely confused.
Yesterday the shadow Chancellor insisted that low interest rates were the sign of an economy in trouble. That is the same man who, back in 2004, described long-term interest rates as
“the simplest measure of monetary and fiscal policy credibility”.
Mr Duncan Smith
Let me lay out the facts to make things simple for the Opposition before I give way. A 1% rise in our market interest rates would add £10 billion to mortgage bills; the average family with a mortgage would have to pay £1,000 more every year; the cost of business loans would increase by £7 billion; taxpayers would be forced to find an extra £21 billion in debt interest payments—and the ex-Chief Secretary to the Treasury has the front, the absolute front, to talk about squeezing living standards. If the Opposition had their way, living standards would collapse.
Hugh Bayley
Does the Secretary of State not recall that at the time of the general election Britain’s national debt was significantly lower than that of Italy, France, Japan and the United States? The reason Italy faces its economic problems is that its national debt is much higher than that which this Government inherited from the Labour Government.
Mr Duncan Smith
It is well worth reflecting on the fact that the previous Government’s debt cannot be detached from their deficit. In case the hon. Gentleman does not understand it, I will explain that what they did was ratchet up spending before the recession began. We had the largest structural deficit of any G7 country before the recession began.
Mr Duncan Smith
No, I will not give way. The previous Government then went on a spending spree, ratcheting up the deficit, which now pumps the debt. It is no good playing silly games—
Mr Duncan Smith
No, the hon. Gentleman can sit down. It is no good. He is not going to play games over the difference between the deficit and the debt. The reality is that Labour cannot weasel out of it. It left us with a tragedy that we are having to put right, which is why we will oppose the motion.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. I remind the House that there is a six-minute limit on speeches.
Ian Mearns (Gateshead) (Lab)
I am grateful to be called to speak in the debate. The Government’s failure in economic policy is having a profound effect on our nation, but it is also having a disproportionate impact on regions such as the north-east and the poorest in our society. I have every sympathy for the squeezed middle, and many of my constituents are part of it, but I have much greater sympathy for the people who are the battered base in our economy, the very poorest in our society, who the Government’s policies are attacking the worst.
In March the Government launched their much-heralded “The Plan for Growth”. In the foreword, the Business Secretary and his new friend the Chancellor stated:
“This Plan for Growth is an urgent call for action. Britain has lost ground in the world’s economy, and needs to catch up. If we do not act now, jobs will be lost, our country will become poorer and we will find it difficult to afford the public services we all want. If we do not wake up to the world around us, our standard of living will fall, not rise.”
Fiona O’Donnell (East Lothian) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that one area where we are missing an opportunity for growth is green growth, and that yesterday the Government finally shed any claim to be the greenest Government ever by threatening investment in green technologies and green jobs?
Ian Mearns
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for her comments, which are absolutely true. Certainly, companies in the north-east that have invested heavily in plant to develop photovoltaic cells for household generation and microgeneration have had the base of their work cut away by the Government’s slashing of input tariffs, which will have a disastrous effect on them.
The warning from the Business Secretary and his new friend the Chancellor was a call to action—fine words, but we all know that actions speak much louder. In my constituency and in the wider north-east the impact of the Government’s failure has been, and will be, enormous. Even before their economic sabotage, the Local Knowledge public sector employment survey predicted more than 287,000 public sector job losses in the north-east alone. As a consequence of the Chancellor’s statement yesterday, that figure will probably be higher. The Government claim that we are all in this together, but they know, as they knew before embarking on their failed economic experiment, that it will be the poorest and most vulnerable regions and people who will pay the greatest relative cost.
Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the spectre of regional pay, which the Government raised yesterday, will be a huge concern for workers in Wales and the north-east, who will end up doing the same jobs for less pay?
Ian Mearns
I could not agree more. If we want an economic race to the bottom, that is exactly the sort of policy to follow.
In September 2010 the BBC published a report that demonstrated clearly which regions would suffer most. Spending cuts were “to hit north harder”, it reported. BBC-commissioned research showed that industrial areas in the north-east and the midlands are least resilient to economic shocks. It showed that Middlesbrough is ranked as the most vulnerable, followed by Mansfield in Nottinghamshire, and Stoke-on-Trent. The Experian research suggests how England’s regions may cope or not cope with further public sector cuts. The study looked at the ability of each local authority area to withstand sudden changes in the economy, and a clear north-south divide is evident in the research. Elmbridge and Waverley in Surrey and St Albans in Hertfordshire are the most resilient places, and places such as those I mentioned are the least resilient.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Clearly, the changes in working tax credit and child tax credit will also affect people, and those who are not on the poverty line but are close to it will be pushed towards it. Does the hon. Gentleman believe that the Government’s changes in working tax credit and child tax credit will have a harsh impact on those people who can least afford it?
Ian Mearns
That is exactly the case, and the impact will be felt more greatly in the regions outside the south- east.
The BBC’s research revealed a clear north-south divide, and a number of factors within the categories were analysed, including the number of vulnerable and resilient industries within an area, the life expectancy of residents, the earnings of workers, and the unemployment and crime rates. The Deputy Prime Minister even admitted at the time that Experian’s research showed that a north-south divide was already present in England. He said that large spending cuts to be announced in the following months should be seen as a broader effort to put the economy on to a more sustainable footing. He spoke about the need to “balance the books”, and to redress the balance. From the north-east’s perspective, can I thank the Deputy Prime Minister? I think not.
In the face of clear evidence of the north-east’s vulnerability, what was the Government’s action? In the last financial year, while the 12 least deprived authorities in England have suffered cuts of around £5 per head of population, Gateshead has lost £88 per head, and the 12 authorities in the north-east have lost an average of £84 per head in expenditure, so no one on the Government Bench should dare to come out with the usual mantra of “We’re all in this together.” It is clear that if we are all in this together, some are dipping their toes and some are in up to our necks.
In November 2010, the Office for Budget Responsibility predicted that 410,000 jobs would be lost in the public sector as a result of the coalition’s cuts. However, in October 2011, the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development said that overall job losses are now expected to be between 600,000 and 750,000 between now and 2015-16. In the north-east already, local authorities have shed well over 10,000 jobs, and 30,000 jobs in the public sector have gone. Some 142,000 people are on the dole in a population of only 2.5 million, and between 12 and 15 people chase each job vacancy in the jobcentres of the north-east. We are not all in it together. There is clearly a divide in the nation.
Where are the jobs in the private sector? Where is the growth that was supposed to replace public sector job losses in the north-east? They simply have not happened, and they will not happen, because the Government’s policies are sucking spending power from the north-east’s economy. Our high streets are suffering, our shops are closing, and our local economy is shedding jobs. If anything, the private sector in the north-east is becoming poorer. Although there is much innovation, cuts in input tariffs are having an impact on green industries. Other industries, such as Allied Bakeries in my constituency have shed jobs, as has Waverley Vintners. The Alcan smelter in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Wansbeck (Ian Lavery) has lost jobs. Things are getting bad up there, and we need a real rebalancing of the economy. Instead of borrowing money to spend on dole and benefit payments, why do we not use that borrowing to invest in our economy, to provide infrastructure growth and create jobs in construction? We are not all in this together, and clearly the Government must wake up to that fact.
Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth) (Con)
Given that I represent one of the most deprived wards in the country, I find it ironic that I should be speaking in this Opposition debate. In fact, Nelson ward is in the bottom 1% in England, particularly when we look at the lower layer super output areas.
Great Yarmouth is a constituency that, like many coastal towns, suffered from many years of being forgotten and left at the end of the track by Labour. One of the phrases that people often use is that we were at the end of the line and that the last Government forgot about us for 13 years. One of the problems was that too many things were done in isolation—working in silos with pet projects or with specific, centrally led Government projects that did not have enough focus locally, so were never able to have enough impact on the general living standards of people in my constituency or other coastal towns.
Let me give a clear example. Some years ago, Great Yarmouth was given about £17 million, which had to be spent on improving the seafront. I have to say that our seafront now looks superb; the council have set it up brilliantly. It looks fabulous and I advise all hon. Members to visit and see the great improvement. I also advise them not to step too far back from the seafront into Nelson, Southtown or Cobholm; they would see the areas left behind as industry faltered through lack of support and the last Government drew jobs away from rural areas. That included Government public sector jobs; they closed HMRC and set up the programme that eventually led to the closure of our coastguard call centre.
We need a Government like this one, who see things far more holistically and do not focus on only one specific area. That is why I am so supportive of what the Government, across all Departments, have been doing. It can benefit constituents across our country—including, from my selfish point of view, Great Yarmouth.
Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con)
Did my hon. Friend experience what I did, in the similar coastal community of Hastings? During those Labour years, there was a dramatic fall in average income in comparison with the rest of the country. In Hastings, it fell by £100 a week per person during that period.
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend makes a very good point, and I shall give another example. The UK average of gross weekly earnings is about £500 per week or £26,100 a year. In Great Yarmouth, the figures are £420 and £21,900 respectively; in fact, 10% of our full-time workers have earnings of £250 a week or £13,000 a year. That is partly because we have seasonal employment, and nobody did enough to move the situation forward until this Government. What the Government have done in improving things for business is to open up better opportunities for people to earn, look after their families and raise their living standards.
In Great Yarmouth, in conjunction with Waveney constituency and Lowestoft, we now have an enterprise zone. The importance of an enterprise zone cannot be overestimated; it has been set out and led by business people in our area who know what they need to grow businesses and attract them into the area to create jobs. The jobs that we need are not seasonal, but those based on an industry in energy and engineering that has a long-term future. The renewable energy industry believes that there are contracts worth about £80 billion across our coastline, with oil and gas decommissioning and renewable energy. That business will bring jobs to our area.
The enterprise zone, focused on areas designed and requested by local business and business leaders, is already attracting companies. The first company to go into an enterprise zone is likely to be in Great Yarmouth. ScottishPower and Vattenfall have already announced a memorandum of understanding that alone could create hundreds of jobs in one spot in my constituency. That is the kind of thing that will increase living standards. We need a more joined-up, holistic approach.
Education also needs to be part of the issue, to ensure that the skills are right. One of the complaints that I get from businesses, not just in my constituency but across industry, is that there is a shortage of people with the skills required by engineering companies and the energy industry. We need to make sure that we match that skill set to the job requirements of businesses.
Only a few weeks ago I met prime providers for the Work programme. One of them said to me that they were surprised that in certain parts of the country where they expected to have an issue in finding jobs, the problem is not finding jobs, but finding people who will apply for those jobs. In Great Yarmouth, we have third-generation, and in some cases fourth-generation, unemployment. Over the next few years, we need to change that culture—to change the programme so that people want to aspire to that first job. They should understand that that first step on the ladder is not the end of the story. They should not just stay on benefits.
A school pupil actually said to me that their ambition was to go on benefits, because their parents were doing nicely, thank you very much. That does not represent the majority of people, but we need to change that culture so that people look at that first opportunity and want to take the step on the ladder. That first job may not be the perfect one with the perfect salary, but it is the first step on the way to getting where people want to be and can be for themselves and their families. That is good for the entire community.
Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the welcome expansion of apprenticeship schemes is giving young people the opportunity not only to take that first step, but to learn applied, real-life skills that businesses in constituencies across the country are crying out for?
Brandon Lewis
My hon. Friend is right, and directs me perfectly to the point I was about to make, which is that apprenticeships are a hugely important part of raising living standards. In my constituency alone, the number of people taking up apprenticeships has increased by about 60%. Apprenticeships give opportunities for people to get real-time work experience and for companies to train people so that they have the skill set that readies them to take on work. One of the things the Government have done well and that we can do more of is highlight the value of apprenticeships, so that young people do not regard university as their only or primary option, but see apprenticeships and going straight into the workplace as a genuine, viable and valuable way to contribute to their own family as much as to society.
Angie Bray
Does my hon. Friend agree also that the Government’s creation of the national citizen service scheme, which is giving 16-year-olds the chance to train together, work together and develop projects together, provides a sure-fire way for them to gain the self-esteem and the confidence they need to take them forward into the workplace?
Brandon Lewis
Absolutely, and I would add that we also need to look at how to get businesses growing faster and quicker to employ more people. Having more people working in the private sector is without doubt the best way to raise living standards both for them and for our country, because having more jobs reduces welfare costs. That is hugely important and it is why I was so pleased to hear the Chancellor’s announcement yesterday about fuel duty being frozen and not increased in January. That, combined with the work already done to get rid of the fuel duty escalator, will get prices, although high, lower than they would otherwise have been. That is important—
Brandon Lewis
No, I will not give way again.
The fuel duty measures are important not only to commuters and consumers—parents trying to get their children to school and young people trying to go to work or get to job interviews—all of whom will be better off, but to firms in transport and logistics, which need to be able to invest more in their businesses, to grow them and to create more jobs.
The Government are also working to protect the elderly, who have given so much already. Making sure that they get their winter fuel allowance and the right protection for their pension, as was announced yesterday, means that we are doing all we can, in the circumstances we inherited from the previous Government, to provide for the people who need help the most.
To me, the key is to bring all that together—education and welfare reforms, and the work being done through the Treasury and BIS on taxation and apprenticeships—in an holistic approach. In that way, our country will be able to move forward and we will see the real improvement in living standards that we all want.
David Miliband (South Shields) (Lab)
This is a time of some gravity for our economy and our society. I shall address two aspects of today’s debate: first, the past 18 months and whether, if the Chancellor had made different decisions, we would be in a different position now; and secondly, the future—the prospects for growth and jobs for our constituents and, above all, whether we can avoid successive further downgrades, after the four that have already occurred, to the economic forecasts published since the general election.
The Prime Minister has introduced a bazooka test for the eurozone countries. My shorthand reading is that in Britain the bazooka marked “austerity” has been far too big and the bazooka marked “growth for the future” far too small. I shall explain that view in my speech today.
The Chancellor’s claim is very specific: that his plan of fiscal austerity is the best route to economic expansion. He uses four arguments to support his case. First, he says that the evidence of Canada in the 1990s shows that the seemingly impossible, a “contractionary expansion”, is proved possible by the Canadian experience. In fact, the Canadian squeeze took place at the same time as the Clinton boom in the United States—Canada’s primary export market. Yet the export of which the Prime Minister and the Chancellor are the most proud is the export of their austerity message to the rest of Europe—our primary trading partners. That was seen at the Busan summit, within a few weeks of this Government coming to office. In the process, they are killing the markets on which we depend.
Secondly, the Chancellor has said that private sector growth was previously crowded out by the public sector, but in his speech yesterday he accepted that Government needed to support private enterprise, including through fiscal policy, although admittedly using the off-balance-sheet tactics that he denounced so forcefully during the last Parliament. Retrenchment in the public sector is no guarantee of renaissance in the private sector.
Thirdly—this, I think, is particularly important—the Chancellor says that international markets have voted with their feet in buying UK gilts and driving down yields over the last 18 months. However, the biggest buyer of gilts in recent years has been not the international markets but the Bank of England. I will not dwell on the fact that the Chancellor denounced quantitative easing when he was shadow Chancellor, but he surely knows that for this financial year the Bank of England will have bought no less than 42% of gilt issuance. The Bank now owns more than 30% of the total gilt stock, compared with zero in 2008, while the proportion of international market ownership has barely changed. Interest rates are low in this country because of Bank purchasing policy, not because of Government fiscal policy.
Mrs Jenny Chapman (Darlington) (Lab)
I am no expert, but is my right hon. Friend saying that the Chancellor’s economic plan is a catastrophic failure?
David Miliband
My hon. Friend has demonstrated that it is harder to make a short speech than a long one, but she has summed up very well in a few words what I am trying to say in rather more.
Fourthly, the Chancellor says that without austerity we would be in the same position as Greece, but the maturity of British bonds is closer to 14 years than to the 14 weeks or 14 days that seem to afflict the Greeks; much more of our borrowing is covered by domestic savings; and above all—unlike countries including Italy, which the Secretary of State mentioned—we have our monetary sovereignty. Far from the Government’s having instilled confidence and stirred entrepreneurial spirits for the future, confidence has dropped further and faster in Britain than anywhere else in the last 18 months, and had done so well before the euro crisis. Moreover, the level of confidence is lower than it was when the Government came to office.
Claire Perry
It is so refreshing to hear a grown-up make a speech from the Opposition Benches. Does the right hon. Gentleman agree, however, that quantitative easing took place originally in 2009—so the money was effectively already in the Bank of England’s coffers at the time of the election—that since then interest rates in Britain have dropped by more than one percentage point, and that we are now borrowing money more cheaply than Germany?
David Miliband
The hon. Lady is right, in that the zero stock held by the Bank of England in 2007-08 meant that quantitative easing had not yet started. When it did start, the stock went up. However, as she will know, since the general election there have been three further rounds of quantitative easing, including the most recent injection of £75 billion. That does much to explain why, although yields have fallen, international market ownership of the stock has not changed. I hope that she will engage with the issue that I am raising in all seriousness, because it is a serious problem for the Government’s argument.
In respect of the future, I want to concentrate on an aspect of the debate that relates directly to the Secretary of State’s responsibilities: youth unemployment. Let me repeat something that I said on television last week, half of which the Prime Minister and the Chancellor have enjoyed quoting. The current Government did not invent the problem of youth unemployment, but my goodness, they have made it worse. That is the charge against them. As the Secretary of State will know, it is a fact that structural unemployment among 16 to 25-year-olds stubbornly refused to fall below 10% even in the good years, when the economy was cantering along, and it is true that unemployment rose in 2005-06.
Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)
Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?
David Miliband
No, let me make this point.
It is also true, however, that between the start of the Labour Government and the financial crisis, long-term unemployment fell by 78%. It fell again, by 38%, between January and December 2010, before the Government’s first Budget decisions were implemented. In January, 150 people aged 16 to 25 in my constituency were claiming jobseeker’s allowance for more than six months. Today the figure is 420, and the figure in the north-east has doubled to nearly 9,000. Youth unemployment across Britain is now at record levels. Severe long-term youth unemployment—the number of people who have been out of work for at least 12 months—stands at 260,000, up by over 100,000 in 18 months, and the number of NEETs, those not in employment, education or training, has risen to 1.2 million. The Secretary of State agrees with me that those figures are a disgrace for any Government or any country. The question is what we do about it. I hope that the Government will take the following points into consideration as they think about the roll-out of their work contract.
First, the Work programme is fine in good times, in a growing economy, but it is not enough to give people job interview preparation when not enough jobs are being created in the economy as a whole. Secondly, the wage subsidy that is being introduced is designed to help 53,000 of the 260,000 long-term youth unemployed. When in 1995 the then Chancellor of the Exchequer introduced a similar scheme, however, it helped 2,300 people. The Secretary of State needs to look at those figures and understand why. Thirdly, the growth in apprenticeships is welcome, but it has got to be for the under-25s. Finally, young people who need help with transport costs, disabled young people and young people with carers need extra help. He knows it as well as I do. It is bad enough to be young and stuck on the dole. It is double the agony to be promised a job and then find that you will not get it.
Let me finish with this thought. The Chancellor’s
“latest economic commentary shows just how out of his depth he is when it comes to important economic issues. Slashing spending now could push the economy back into recession and inflict further structural damage on the UK”.
Those are not my words, but those of the current Business Secretary in February 2010. How right he was. It is time for a change of course, and it is time for a change of course now.
Stephen Williams (Bristol West) (LD)
Yesterday, I think we all agreed when listening to the Chancellor’s statement that much of what he had to say was grim news indeed. It was worse than many of us had anticipated. The situation was certainly worse than the last Government declared when they were in office, or even predicted when they could choose their own predictions. It was also worse than the independent Office for Budget Responsibility forecast when this Government came to office.
We now know that finances will be difficult throughout this Parliament. There will be a squeeze on many people’s real incomes. Perhaps more importantly, in terms of confidence, there will be a suppression of hopes and expectations. I understand absolutely why many people are anxious, and I even understand why many people are right to be angry about the situation in which we find ourselves. They are also right to think that some people are indeed “out of touch”, as the motion puts it.
We have seen in many major cities around the world the Occupy people, who are protesting against capitalism. I do not agree with much of what they say; I am a free-market liberal, and I want capitalism to work. Those of us who believe in the functioning of the market economy, however—I think that this now unites the three main parties in this country—must address the concerns that many of our constituents feel about the failure of the market economy to deliver fairness in our society. Last week, the High Pay Commission referred to the “gross inequality” that has arisen in our society, most of which arose, of course, during the period of the last Labour Government. The average pay of someone in work is now £25,900, whereas the pay of a chief executive of a top 100 company has risen to £4.2 million —145 times average pay.
Mr Byrne
The hon. Gentleman is kind in giving way, and I am following his argument closely. I am not certain which measure of inequality he is looking at, but I am sure he would accept that the Gini coefficient, which is one of the most popular measures of inequality, was practically the same at the end of Labour’s term of office as at the beginning. I am sure he would also accept that, looking around the world, the UK was one of the only countries in the OECD—I think that Turkey and Ireland were the others—where inequality was held in check. It went through the roof everywhere else.
Stephen Williams
We can trade statistics, but the right hon. Gentleman cannot deny what everyone is seeing and what all our constituents are saying to us. They are fed up that the people at the top of companies— Labour Members have referred to bankers, but it is not just the bankers; this also applies to others—seem to have got away with it, while people at the middle or bottom are being squeezed. I hope that the Government act on the High Pay Commission recommendations.
The Government are acting to safeguard the living standards of those at the bottom of the income scale.
Hugh Bayley
What would be the hon. Gentleman’s policy to reduce the incomes of those on high income, to reduce inequality?
Stephen Williams
I recommend that the hon. Gentleman looks at the High Pay Commission report, which is an excellent document containing many recommendations for controlling executive pay. I urge the Government seriously to consider many of those recommendations, including on the revolving door of non-executives on boards of companies effectively determining each other’s pay, where some of the most serious breaches occur.
On hard-working families, to which the motion refers, the Liberal Democrats’ No. 1 policy commitment at the last general election was that, in order to make work pay, we would raise out of income tax those on low earnings and those working part time by increasing the income tax threshold to £10,000 over the lifetime of the Parliament. Progress towards giving effect to that aspiration is being made throughout this Parliament. Let us contrast that with the last Budget of the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) in 2007, when, just before becoming Prime Minister, he financed an income tax cut through a tax rise for the poorest in society. I remember watching Labour Members waving their Order Papers and cheering that income tax cut—
Stephen Williams
As my hon. Friend the Pensions Minister says, they did not understand that their own Chancellor was financing election populism on the backs of the poorest workers in society. Let us have fewer lectures from Labour Members on how to treat people on low pay in work.
Stephen Williams
I have taken two interventions. I will not take any more.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions referred to another reform that the coalition Government will introduce—universal credit—to sweep away the labyrinth of benefits and tax credits that are a legacy of the last Labour Government. In the autumn statement, the Chancellor confirmed that working-age benefits and benefits for disabled people would be increased by the full CPI rate of 5.2%, which puts into the pockets of the poorest in society extra cash that they will spend almost immediately in their local communities.
Stephen Williams
I have taken two interventions.
There was pressure from certain quarters not to make that increase, but the coalition has done the right thing and stuck by its promises to the poorest people in society.
On children, which the motion also covers, tax credits for children are being increased—given all the rhetoric, one would swear they were being cut—by the rate of inflation, 5.2%. In the long term, we want to transform the life chances of the poorest children in society, through the pupil premium and extra child care for two-year-olds announced in the autumn statement.
For young people, the Government are putting millions of pounds behind increasing apprenticeship places. The right hon. Member for South Shields (David Miliband) did not want to take my intervention on youth unemployment—
Stephen Williams
He can shake his head and then he can deny that youth unemployment was 650,000 in 1997, and after one of the longest booms in Britain’s peacetime history the Labour Government left behind 930,000 young unemployed for this Government to deal with.
For pensioners, the autumn statement confirmed that the basic state pension will be increased by £5.30, the biggest cash increase in the history of the state pension. That increase comes about because of the triple lock that the coalition Government have put in place. Let us remember another policy choice that could have been made. In 2000, when the previous Government were in office and when earnings rose by 4.4%, the CPI was 1.2% and inflation was 1.1%, which measure did the previous Labour Government choose? They chose the lowest, producing a 75p pension rise. That was at a time when the budget was in surplus and we were in the middle of a boom. In these difficult times, the Government have done the right thing by pensioners as well. No wonder that pensioners were left out of the motion that has been tabled today.
The motion mentions a squeeze, but the biggest squeeze that could be inflicted on citizens in our country—the 29 million people in work—would be on their mortgage payments, their debt interest payments, and the loans of the businesses that employ them, if the international markets were to lose confidence in this country.
The motion says that the government are “out of touch”. There is some cheek, some chutzpah, at the heart of a motion worded in that way by a party formerly led by Tony Blair, alongside whom the architect of new Labour, Peter Mandelson, said that he was “intensely relaxed” about people becoming filthy rich. If the shadow Secretary of State wants to see who is out of touch, I suggest that he and his colleagues look in the mirror, because it is they who are out of touch with reality.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. In order to fit in more Back-Bench contributions the time limit is being reduced to five minutes, and it is likely to be reduced further because of the number of interventions being made.
Teresa Pearce (Erith and Thamesmead) (Lab)
I spent this morning talking about living standards with mothers in my constituency, who are losing a day’s pay today to stand with other public sector workers fighting for a decent pension. They told me that they had not taken strike action lightly or easily, and had never been on strike before. Many of them are low paid; they are all women. They told me that under the Government’s proposals for public sector pensions, when they retired they would receive only just enough to keep them above the threshold for means-tested benefits.
The Government like to encourage the myth that pensions in the public sector are gold-plated; they are anything but. The average pension in local government is £3,800 a year, and for women it is even lower—£2,800 a year. More than half of all women pensioners who have worked in the national health service receive a pension of less than £3,500 a year. Nobody in society benefits when pensioners are in poverty, and if people are reliant on state benefits in retirement, that costs the taxpayer more in the long run.
Although in my lifetime we have seen progress in terms of a fairer deal for women, it is undeniable that the women now reaching pension age are still at a disadvantage because of the decades for which women’s pay was lower. The Government talk the talk about a fairer deal for women, but I do not believe that they walk the walk. Many of us who campaigned alongside thousands of women born in 1954 will remember that the coalition had to be dragged kicking and screaming to make concessions to those women.
Under this Government the pay gap between rich and poor has been widening, and last week the Office for National Statistics figures showed that for the worst-paid jobs, the jobs traditionally held by women—the hairdressers, the dinner ladies and the waiters—pay has fallen sharply in real terms.
Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
Will not those very women that my hon. Friend is talking about—the dinner ladies and the classroom assistants—be further hit by two years of a pay freeze, followed by years to come in which they will get wage increases of just 1%, if their jobs stay in the public sector and are not privatised?
Teresa Pearce
I totally agree with my hon. Friend. There is wage stagnation at the bottom of the income ladder. People are seeing their pay frozen at the same time as they face higher food, fuel and energy costs. There is a quiet crisis going on behind the front doors of the homes in my constituency, where families are struggling week in, week out to make ends meet. Their financial affairs can be thrown into total crisis by even the smallest unexpected bill.
Today, therefore, I want to talk about how the Government have decided what side they are on. They have driven on with that course, no matter what. It has to be said that we in this House are the privileged few, and surely the moral duty of those with privilege is to defend those who have little or no power. But that is not what I have witnessed since I came here in May 2010. What I have seen is a systematic, focused political attack by the Government on the poor, the weak and the voiceless.
In the May 2010 emergency Budget child benefit was frozen, housing benefit was capped, the health in pregnancy grant was abolished, and Sure Start grant was restricted to the first child. The Library said that 72% of those cuts fell on women. In October 2010 the same thing happened: more cuts—cuts to local government, cuts to Departments whose work affects women, and nearly half a million jobs cut from the public sector. When it comes to cuts, it seems to me that it is “women and children first”.
That leads me on to yesterday’s announcement. In June 2010 the Chancellor announced plans to increase child tax credits above inflation as a measure to prevent rises in child poverty. The spending review in October reaffirmed that pledge. Yesterday the autumn statement said that that decision would be reversed. The Daily Telegraph said today that the Treasury admitted that the cuts in tax credit would “theoretically” push 100,000 children into poverty. Let me tell the House that the child poverty in my constituency is not theoretical. It is heartbreakingly, grindingly real. So why do the coalition Government think that it is fair, or morally right, to hit hardest those who have the least?
It is not just me who thinks this way. The Children’s Society has said that it is “deeply concerned” that the Chancellor
“has decided to compound the hardship felt by low-income families.”
It added:
“Children in low-income families need to be protected from rising living costs. Instead, the Chancellor has condemned thousands of low-income families to a winter of discontent, with many more to come.”
The Working Families charity has said that
“today’s measure will lead to higher levels of in-work poverty, or to more parents being priced out of work.”
Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con)
Is the hon. Lady really saying that child poverty has only existed in her constituency for the past 18 months, and that it did not exist in the 13 years when her party was in power?
Teresa Pearce
What I am saying is that child poverty in my constituency will increase as a result of this Government’s plans.
Inequality is often most obvious in the context of housing. Every week my postbag is full of letters from families who are living in overcrowded, shoddy, private-rented flats, and whose dream of a decent home seems to drift further away every month. I would welcome any initiative that helps to remedy that, but, sadly, I do not think that the measures announced by the Government, such as underwriting mortgages for families to buy new-build homes, will help families in Erith and Thamesmead.
The indemnity scheme involves taking a lot of risk on to the public-sector balance sheet. That is bad for taxpayers and could be worse for those who take up the scheme. The scheme applies only to new build, and it is widely acknowledged that new build is often marketed at a premium above market value of about 2% or 3%, so a 95% mortgage will, in effect, be close to a 100% mortgage, and if house prices fall buyers will face negative equity and the taxpayer will have to cover any losses. A better way to help families and first-time buyers is through extending stamp duty relief.
Time and again, therefore, the Government show whose side they are on: they cut corporation tax while increasing VAT; they cut housing benefit rather than tackle the unscrupulous landlords who are profiteering from housing benefit while their tenants live in substandard properties. As for the Chancellor, it is clear that not one of his post-election assertions has turned out to be correct: inflation is up; growth has stalled; the eurozone has crashed; the structural deficit is bigger than previously thought; and unemployment continues to rise month on month as the private sector fails to take up the public sector slack, although the Chancellor was certain that it would do so. It appears, too, that everybody else is to blame. The Chancellor has blamed the royal wedding, the weather, civil servants, Brussels, employment tribunals, trade unions, banks, bank holidays, people living longer, energy prices and, of course, the Opposition. We have a Chancellor who wants the power but not the responsibility, and I fully expect him to say at the next Budget, “It’s not my fault—”
Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)
I am pleased to follow the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce) because it is important that we challenge some of the myths we have just heard. Before I was elected as Member for Aberconwy, I remember going out in the constituency with the police, and we came across people who were living rough. That was before this coalition Government came to power. From listening to Labour Members, however, one would think that poverty did not exist until May 2010. Their rewriting of history is completely unacceptable.
Mr Byrne
Is the hon. Gentleman as concerned as I am about the Institute for Fiscal Studies estimate that a further 600,000 children will be plunged into absolute poverty over the course of this Parliament, and is he worried about the Treasury’s own analysis published yesterday showing that 100,000 children may fall into child poverty over the next year or two?
Guto Bebb
There is not a single Member of this House who will not be concerned about the fact that there are people who are facing real difficulties, but this Government are trying to make sure we tackle the real poverty we have in this country. In Wales, for example, in many instances what we have is a poverty of ambition, which was fostered by 13 years of Labour Government. For 13 years the economic performance of Wales was worse than that of the rest of the United Kingdom. For 13 years, Labour Members happily threw money at an issue in order to salve their consciences—they threw money at the issue and felt they could then forget the communities that I am proud to represent.
I am part of a coalition Government who are aiming to ensure that if people are willing to work and take part in this economy, they will be better off by doing so. The Government are tackling a long-term problem with long-term solutions. It is unacceptable that the Labour party is attacking a Government who are willing to have a long-term strategy by trying to make short-term points about the past 18 months. This Government are brave enough to look not to the next electoral cycle but to the future.
I was astounded when I read the motion, which refers to the need to look after hard-pressed families. It does not read very well if one is a Welsh MP, because the Labour Assembly Government have completely forgotten about hard-pressed families. What has happened with the council tax in Wales, compared with that in England? The Westminster Government have made money available to allow council tax to be frozen, but the Labour Administration in Wales have decided that supporting hard-working families is not a priority. Some Labour Members have said to me, “The council tax saving is £12 a month. What’s £12 a month?” For people in my constituency, where the average wage is £23,000 a year, £12 a month is a lot.
Mr Byrne
The hon. Gentleman is making his argument with passion and force, as he always does. He will be worried, I am sure, that the cuts made over the past 18 months mean that in his constituency 700 families are losing help with child care, and the tax credits of nearly 6,000 people are being cut. He must surely accept that that is contributing to the squeeze his constituents are feeling.
Guto Bebb
Indeed. The problem is that the Labour party believes that the Government should be responsible for ensuring that families have money in their back pockets. I believe that my constituents want to take that responsibility for themselves. Hon. Members should be proud of the fact that this Government are trying to ensure that those who work are better off. My constituents will be able to keep more of their earnings because we are moving to higher personal allowance rates, and I welcome that.
Guto Bebb
I have already taken two interventions.
It is disingenuous of Labour Members to say that they are concerned about the incomes of hard-working families when the Labour party in Wales is unwilling to pass on council tax savings that would be appreciated by people in my constituency and across Wales. They have the cheek to say that the VAT increase implemented by the Government—made necessary by the financial situation that the previous Government left—should be reversed without explaining where the money will come from. Even more bizarre, Labour spokespeople explain in the media that the VAT reduction they propose would save the average family £450. I have no idea where that figure comes from. Such a saving would mean that an average family had £18,000 of disposable income to spend on “VAT-able” goods. I will not come across a family in my constituency with £18,000 of disposable income, let alone one with £18,000 of disposable income to spend on “VAT-able” goods and services.
The inflation figures show that families are being squeezed by increasing food prices. What should the Government do about such increases? Food is subject to VAT at 0%. As a result of high street competition, the prices of goods and services subject to VAT are going down.
We must be honest in this debate. In very difficult circumstances, the Government have attempted to look after the weakest in society. I was proud of the fact that yesterday, despite the changes to the Government’s finances, the triple-lock guarantee on pensions was kept. Average ages in my constituency are the highest among constituencies in Wales, and the Government’s decision will go down very well, compared with the previous Government’s 75p insult to pensioners. We should also be proud of the fact that we are increasing child credits by £390.
More crucial is the fact that, unlike the previous Government, this Government recognise the real threat to family incomes—the increase in fuel prices. I welcome the fact that the Chancellor listened and that, in extremely difficult circumstances, the previous Administration’s proposed 3p increase in fuel duty, scheduled for January, is to be postponed. Fuel prices are high—again, owing to circumstances beyond the control of the Government—but time and again the Government have listened. We had the 1p reduction, and the 5p increase was cancelled.
Guto Bebb
The VAT rise is a fair point. That is possibly 2p, but we have seen duty frozen—11p, in effect, off the price, and frozen for 19 months. When the previous Administration were in power, we saw fuel duty increase by 20p and I did not see any Labour Members express any concern for those living in a rural area such as mine, where people have to travel 20 miles to get to the supermarket. This Government listen. They listen to the concerns of the elderly and of people in rural communities.
Guto Bebb
I have already taken two interventions.
More importantly, this Government know that the way out of the situation that we inherited is to champion self-reliance and enterprise, and to say to people in Wales, “Back in the 1980s we were creating more businesses than any other part of the United Kingdom. We had more new VAT-registered businesses than any other part of the United Kingdom.” I have confidence in the people of Wales. Unfortunately, the past 13 years have been wasted, but with this coalition Government, we will see change and we will see growth.
Ms Margaret Ritchie (South Down) (SDLP)
I support the motion before the House and I want to bring to the debate the perspective of a rural constituency in Northern Ireland.
There is irrefutable evidence that families, young people, the elderly, low to middle income earners and those in receipt of benefits have all found themselves squeezed, have less money to provide for essentials for daily living, and justifiably feel that they have been unfairly treated by the coalition Government. They also feel that the Government have removed the sense of fairness and equity from their vocabulary.
Proposed punitive regulations and legislation surrounding welfare reform will make the situation worse, making it more difficult for people to access benefits. At the same time they will be unable to obtain jobs. Although the concept is laudable, the jobs are not there because of the economic recession. The spectre of emigration therefore looms again, this time to Australia and New Zealand, and many small rural communities have found that young people who should be making a contribution to the economy through self-help, through the private sector or through the public sector, have simply gone away.
Added to this, the increases in fuel prices are leading to deepening fuel poverty, and the rising cost of motor insurance, particularly in Northern Ireland where it is more acute, prevent many young people from making themselves available to work where a requirement to drive is a pre-requisite on the job application. Levels of youth unemployment have risen, so child poverty has deepened. Levels of deprivation and disadvantage have deepened. We must not let the Government condemn us. We believe in self-help and in collaboration, and we have done that. We have developed our assets to their full potential but still that has not been enough because of the Government policies, which have been an onslaught on our rural economy, particularly in areas such as Northern Ireland where deprivation is at its most acute.
Against that background, we had the Government’s autumn statement yesterday. Although parts of it may be welcome, there are areas that require clarification. They centre on the cap on public sector pay, the rise in state pension age that goes with it, and the need for spending commitments to be fully subject to the Barnett consequentials. There is no doubt that in the face of the mounting economic recession, the 1% cap on public sector pay, following on from the current freeze, is derisory and unacceptable. It will prove highly controversial in a place like Northern Ireland, particularly in the light of today’s strikes.
Nia Griffith
Does the hon. Lady agree that not only will the cutting back on public sector jobs affect young people’s opportunities, but the 3% tax—the £2.8 billion that the Government hope to raise from the increase in pension contributions—will suck money out of the economy across the UK and drive families into poverty?
Ms Ritchie
I do agree. In fact, we were the only party in the Northern Ireland Executive that voted against the hike in pensions, which we found totally unacceptable because it will impact on the most vulnerable in our society.
We would also like to know what the Barnett consequentials for the devolved Administrations will be in relation to the announcements in the autumn statement of the £16 billion youth contract and the £400 million for house construction projects.
I and my party colleagues support this motion because it clearly highlights the deepening problem of poverty right across Northern Ireland and because we support our colleagues in the Labour party in Britain.
Mr Robert Syms (Poole) (Con)
At the end of the Labour period in office, when the first financial storms hit us in 2007, it was clear that the country was, at that point, living beyond its means. It had a deficit of about 3% of GDP, while at the same time the Germans had a surplus. Then we hit all the problems of the banking collapse. The hon. Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley) was right: thank God Britain had a low debt level of gross domestic product because that allowed the Government—
Mr Syms
Yes, partly because of that. Traditionally in Britain it has been about 40%, so that gave the Government some room for manoeuvre. Any Government in office would have had a large increase in its deficit given what hit them in 2007 and 2008. There is no great argument about that and, as someone sitting on the other side of the Chamber, I think that many of the things that the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling) did were beneficial in trying to maintain a fragile economic situation.
Having said that, we cannot continue to increase debt year on year at the rate we were in 2009, 2010 and 2011 or we will overwhelm the British economy. The worst thing for our constituents is not paying tax; it is paying tax to pay interest on money being borrowed from someone else. The Government had to make a judgment, and their judgment was to set out an economic policy gradually to reduce our debt over five to seven years to a level that, once it tops off in 2016-17, can then start to be brought back to the level of more normal years, which is about 40% of GDP. In an environment in which the world was growing rapidly, that would be easier. In an environment in which the eurozone is blowing up, and there are high fuel and food prices, it becomes much more difficult. That is part of the problem for the Government in the short term. It is events—it is what is happening around the world.
There is nothing surprising about where the Government are. Sticking with the policy is perfectly sensible, but things do not go in a straight line in economics, and there will be OBR forecasts and Budgets where the figures for debt increase, and some where they decrease. It will depend to some extent on world events.
Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con)
My hon. Friend is talking about debt levels. Was not one of the issues under the Labour Government the integrity of the public finances? Their estimates of public sector debt did not include the private finance initiative, which was a grossly exaggerated amount of public benefit, and they did not include the burgeoning increase in public sector pension claims on the economy. Does my hon. Friend agree that another aspect of debt in which the Labour Government’s policies were embedded was increasing the costs that people had to pay for their housing through the ever-increasing impression that housing wealth was real wealth? That has had a real impact on people’s well-being and living standards today.
Mr Syms
Clearly, and another problem in the British economy is that there is a lot of private sector borrowing. We have a high level of indebtedness, both of government and of the private sector. In Italy, they save rather more than we do, and as a country we should try to encourage more of our citizens to save and not live on the never-never in the long term.
I support what the Chancellor did in the autumn statement. We are clearly in choppy weather, but that is no reason to change course. We cannot adjust the budget down or raise taxation painlessly. The living standards of most of the population will be squeezed. As the IFS and other organisations have said, living standards have fallen by about 7% over the past two to three years. The good news is that next year the projection is for things to be fairly flat, with some modest recovery after that. It may well be that when we get to 2015—the general election year—we have lower living standards than in 2010 as a consequence of the fact that we have inherited a major deficit, very difficult problems and a pretty rotten international environment. That is no reason for going off course, but it is a reason for sticking to a very sensible policy. Labour Members may think that we cannot do things without breaking eggs, but that is not so. We have to raise the tax burden and reduce spending, and I am afraid that that has consequences.
Toby Perkins (Chesterfield) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman said at the beginning that this would have happened under any Government. I congratulate him on his frankness, but the Chancellor is in complete denial about that—he wants to disown the fact that in 2007 and 2008 his policy was to follow Labour’s spending plans. The hon. Gentleman is right and his Chancellor is wrong, and I hope that he will try to get him to be a little more frank in future. No one disagrees about the need to reduce the deficit, but we are cutting more and more and yet the debt is going up way beyond what was predicted because the policy is not working.
Mr Syms
We have been in office for only 18 months. It will take six, seven or eight years to stabilise the debt and probably several more to start reducing debt as a proportion of GDP.
I have said some complimentary things about the right hon. Member for Edinburgh South West. I rather suspect that had Labour won the general election in 2010 and Labour Members were sitting on the Treasury Bench, they would have a policy not dissimilar from that of the current Government. The seriousness of the problem is demonstrated by the fact that we are acting as a coalition Government. For all my political life, we fought the Liberal Democrats like ferrets in a sack, yet we have managed to find some degree of agreement because of the scale of the economic problems that we face.
The Government’s policy is sensible and measured in trying to do things gradually. That means that it will take a long time to implement, but we will ultimately get to a point where we have managed to reduce debt and get the economy into a much better state. In the short term, as I say, it is going to hurt, but I am afraid that that is a consequence of where we are. I see no other way around that. Tough decisions are necessary. I am glad that the Government—Conservative Ministers and even Liberal Democrat Ministers, to my surprise—have taken some pretty tough decisions. They are doing so for the national interest and for the interests of our children and our grandchildren.
Robert Flello (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Lab)
The hon. Member for Poole (Mr Syms) almost had me agreeing with some of his speech, certainly in its early moments, but I am afraid that he blew it at the end when he talked about the Chancellor being sensible and then praised the Liberal Democrats—neither of the main parties in this House should stoop to such a level.
We have heard the phrase, “We’re all in this together”, many times over the past 18 months. I wonder how the 11,600 families in my constituency who will see their tax credits cut by an average of £680 per annum—on top of the three-year child benefit freeze and all the other cuts that they have seen—will feel about our all being in this together. I think they will be sitting there thinking that we are certainly not all in it together. Around the country, 100,000 more children will be in poverty as a result of this Government’s plans, proposals and policies. Will they think that we are all in it together? I somehow do not think they will. The number of young people in my constituency who are aged between 18 and 24 and have been claiming jobseeker’s allowance for six months or more has increased by 154%. That is a huge increase in the number of young people who find themselves in the position of not having any work. They will not think that we are all in this together, and rightly so, because we are not.
The Minister sneered a few times when the issue of bankers came up. The Government are keen, with their coalition pals, to talk about how hard they have been on the bankers with their levy. They always seem to forget that they offset the hit of the levy with the corporation tax cut and other giveaways to the bankers. The bankers are not sitting there saying “We’ve been really hard hit by this; we’re all in this together”—of course they are not. They are quite happy because on the face of it, they have had this big levy, but the reality is that that is diminished by the corporation tax changes and other benefits.
The pay of FTSE 100 directors has risen by 49% but my constituents can only dream of a 4.9% increase in income. Are we all in this together? I do not think that we are. A pattern is developing. The wealthiest, the bankers and the FTSE 100 all seem to do nicely as against the children and the poorest. The three poorest deciles are being hit three times as hard as the top decile.
Robert Flello
The Minister shakes his head, but I am afraid that the figures do not support his position.
The Opposition are wrong to say that the Government’s policies are hurting, not working, because they are not hurting but murdering our communities. They are so punitive that they are destroying our communities. We are not all in this together by any stretch of the imagination. We heard earlier about a list of areas that were among the most vulnerable to the impact of the cuts. Stoke-on-Trent was high up on that list but the Government’s policies actively take money away from places like Stoke-on-Trent to help all-in-it-together places like Kensington and Chelsea or Westminster, which obviously need the money far more than do the people of Stoke-on-Trent.
Then there is this nonsense, this con––let us get it out on the table––of the freeze on council tax. I am sorry but this 2.5% increase in council tax, which is what this nonsense would amount to––
Sheila Gilmore
Does my hon. Friend know that in Scotland we have had five years of the council tax freeze? For some of the poorest people in the community, it has in effect put up things like charges for home care because the freeze pushes the costs out elsewhere.
Robert Flello
My hon. Friend makes a sound point, to which I was just coming. Because of the large number of band A properties in Stoke-on-Trent, the tax take is relatively low. Just taking the 2.5% increase instead of the much larger imposition that would be needed to go some way to not having to make the £24 million or so of cuts this year on top of the £36 million or so last year, means that the council will probably be unable to afford not to raise the price of things like respite care or day care centres. The council could not take the 2.5% pay-off to do that but would have to raise council tax by more to get some way to avoiding that.
Day care centres are under threat. There is talk of closing such things in Fenton and in Burslem in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Joan Walley). These cuts across the board are again hitting the poorest and most vulnerable people in our society who live in Stoke-on-Trent.
I have a long list of things, but in the time I have left, I want to mention something that the Chancellor announced yesterday in respect of what on the face of it appears to be help for energy-intensive users. Stoke-on-Trent has many energy-intensive users in the ceramic industry. As Dr Laura Cohen of the British Ceramic Confederation has said, the thresholds have been set so high and the proposals have been done in such a way that they will not help ceramic producers in Stoke-on-Trent, many of whom have contacted the confederation to say that it is an empty gesture that will not assist them. That is the sort of thing that Government policies are doing. They are hammering communities such as Stoke-on-Trent and, frankly, that is outrageous.
Charlie Elphicke (Dover) (Con)
I want to talk particularly about the importance of getting the country going in order to raise living standards. I pressed the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) on what Labour’s growth plan was and how much it would cost. I will happily accept any intervention from Opposition Members on this, but it seems to me that it would cost billions. How would it be funded? It is clear that it would be funded by debt––more borrowing.
We have narrowly avoided suffering from the debt storm throughout Europe, but were we to give way on the fiscal rectitude that we have shown and to go to the markets and borrow to fund Labour’s extravagant growth plan, we would be at risk of higher interest rates. Let us bear in mind that every one percentage point increase in interest rates means another £1,000 on the average mortgage.
Painful though the programme to cut overspending has been for so many people throughout the country, the most important achievement—the most important tax cut, if we like—has been the reduction in the cost of borrowing. It has helped so many hard-pressed families, including those in my constituency, to muddle through the recession as best they can, in a situation in which global inflation from imported goods, such as petrol and so on, has been higher and has put pressure on living standards, as every constituency MP understands all too well.
These are very difficult times not just for my constituents in Dover and Deal, but for everyone in the country who finds themselves without a large pay rise at work and facing rising global food prices. It has been a very difficult year, as the OBR makes clear. This year, average inflation has been 4.5%, yet average earnings have not kept pace. It has been difficult, and it has been a squeeze, but world prices, including in commodities and food, are something over which no Government have any great control. I, like my hon. Friend the Member for Poole (Mr Syms), have not heard from the Opposition any clear plan for what they would do differently to deal with the situation, but it does get better next year as those things work their way through the system.
Lorely Burt (Solihull) (LD)
My hon. Friend paints a picture of the difficulties that families throughout the country face, and I fully understand the points that he makes. Will he speculate on how much worse the situation would be if, having entered government with a warning on our triple A credit rating, we had not taken those necessary steps? We would be in the same situation as Italy or even Greece. How many more families would be out of work, and how much smaller would be the amount of money to go round?
Charlie Elphicke
I thank my hon. Friend for that powerful intervention, and she is absolutely right. The point has been made that, when we entered office, we had similar interest rates to Italy, but its rate is now up at about 8% and we are basically parallel with German borrowing. If we were turned by the Opposition into—dare I say it?—an Italian job, we would find that interest rates shot up for the average home owner and small business borrower, and that we faced serious difficulties and serious economic decline. In fact, we are not in recession and we are still growing.
Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)
On my hon. Friend’s point about the real difficulties that we would face if our interest rates were the same as those in Italy or Greece, does he agree that the 25,000 home owners in my constituency would face real hardship, real misery, and possibly repossession?
Charlie Elphicke
I could not agree more. If we had pursued such a plan, we would now be in recession, and the fact that we are not in that situation and do not plan to be is a testament to how well the Chancellor has managed the economy since the election, and to how well the coalition Government have done in taking the tough and necessary decisions to steer the right and careful course.
The situation is, of course, difficult for our young people. All Government Members feel painfully how difficult it has been with youth unemployment, and it would be a lie to say otherwise, but we have taken action: we have had an apprenticeship revolution, which has done so much; we have seen the new youth contract, which is going to make such a big difference; and, although we know that the trend had been rising for some time, we now need to reduce it and to turn the oil tanker around. I am confident that this Government are absolutely determined to do that.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
When the Labour party left government, it left huge debts, and the cost of paying just the interest is running at about £44 billion a year. That works out at about £1,800 per household in taxation—just to pay the interest on Labour’s debts. Does my hon. Friend agree that that is having a huge impact on the spending power of families and is one reason why they feel under real pressure?
Charlie Elphicke
I absolutely agree. The saviour has been the low interest rates, which have meant that they are less squeezed than they would have been had Labour been in power.
Charlie Elphicke
No, because I have taken three interventions, which is more than generous.
Finally, it is not the job of Government to create jobs. Jobs, wealth and prosperity are created by business. A Government who want higher living standards and economic growth are a Government who will back business to the hilt and ensure that it has a stable environment in which jobs can be created. I welcome the enterprise zones that have been created, the incentives for business to grow and create job opportunities and the measures to help business announced by the Chancellor in the autumn statement. I welcome all the reductions in corporation tax, the cut in the small companies rate, the extension of loan guarantees, the simplification of health and safety laws, the investment in science and apprenticeships and the promotion of exports through major trade missions. That is what we should be doing. We need an activist Government who are concerned with active growth and making this country this great again after 13 years in which Labour took us back to the edge of bankruptcy, just as it did in the 1970s. We want to take this country forward to better growth and living standards and better prosperity and business success across the world.
Mr Nick Raynsford (Greenwich and Woolwich) (Lab)
I draw attention to my registered interests. I was interested to hear the comments of the hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke). All I can say is that it would be nice to see some of the growth he talks about, but he must be aware that it is proving stubbornly resistant to the policies the Government have adopted.
I intend to focus my remarks on the housing market and associated benefits, which the Minister will be familiar with as his Department is responsible for them. I will do so for three reasons. First, the availability and affordability of housing is critical to people’s living standards. Secondly, housing and construction have a huge contribution to make to employment and the country’s economic performance, and currently they are underperforming. Thirdly, the Government’s policies in this sector provide in microcosm a rather telling illustration of incoherence, which is why their policies, not just in housing, but across the whole economy, are doomed to failure.
Like the wider economy, the housing market is in a fragile and parlous state. The recovery that was under way in the early months of 2010 has been halted in its tracks, output has plummeted and net additions to the housing stock in the latest 12 months are just 121,000, the lowest ever recorded and only half the level required to meet estimated need. New housing starts are even worse. In the latest 12 months new starts fell below 100,000 to just 96,000.
The Government have responded with some measures. The mortgage indemnity scheme announced in the autumn statement addresses one of the factors that are currently inhibiting the market: the availability of mortgage finance to people who cannot raise substantial deposits. I welcome that, with some reservations, but it does not address the other factors discouraging market recovery, particularly the wider economy; the fear of unemployment, which clearly inhibits people from taking the risk of purchasing a new house; and the considerable problems of uncertainty in the planning system, which are the product of the Government’s ill-considered meddling in planning rules. The scheme does not provide the rapid response that is urgently needed, because we do not yet know the full details, how lenders will respond or, critically, what interest rates are likely to apply on mortgages given with the indemnity. If they are high, that will largely undermine the potential benefit, thereby reducing potential take-up. We do not yet know when the scheme will come into operation. We think that it will be in the spring, but that is almost six months away and in the meantime the market is seriously underperforming.
The position in the rented sector is even bleaker. The Government have made huge cuts to the Homes and Communities Agency budget for investment in housing, essentially stopping social housing investment. There has been an overall cut of 60% in investment and in the latest six months only 454 new social and affordable homes were started in England. That is a measure of just what a desperate state the affordable housing market is in.
The Government’s new policy is based on the Orwellian concept of affordable rents. The previous Government’s policy of target rents was based on a formula that took account of earnings, so it generally delivered rents that were affordable to people on low incomes. The new affordable rents, however, are related to market rents, and the concept is 80% of market rent. In areas of high values, such as London and the south-east, that is a recipe for huge rent increases, and in some cases a doubling of rent levels.
The interesting question, to which I hope the Minister will give some thought, is how people on low incomes will meet those vast rent increases. Either they will go elsewhere, and probably the only option is the private rented sector, where rents will be even higher because, by definition, they will be market rents, or they will be dependent on housing benefit. Back in the 1980s and 1990s, the then Conservative Government talked about housing benefit being the solution to coping with higher rents. The problem now is that we have a Department for Work and Pensions that is hellbent on cutting housing benefit at the same time as the Department for Communities and Local Government is making people more dependent on it. That is inherently contradictory, and simply cannot work. It will result either in increased poverty, homelessness and deprivation, or in a huge increase in the housing benefit bill, which will no doubt spark further calls for it to be reduced. The policy is incoherent, and cannot deliver the new homes that are needed. It threatens serious social consequences, and I hope that the Government will reconsider.
Anna Soubry (Broxtowe) (Con)
I would like to open my remarks by trying to find some consensus in this place. What do we, as parents, all want and hope for our children? I think that each and every one of us agrees that we hope to pass on to our children stuff that is better than we have had as we have lived our lives. For example, we want our children to have a better education than we had, a higher quality and standard of living, and perhaps a happier and more fulfilled life. Essentially, we want them to have more and better things than we have enjoyed. We do not want our children to have to bear the burden of debt from a previous generation—a debt and a deficit in which they played no part. I certainly do not want that for my children, who are 20 and 21. It is not right, and it is not fair that they and the rest of their generation, and arguably the generation that will come from them, should bear the burden of the debt and deficit that my generation—the generation in this House—has ratcheted up, particularly as a consequence of the policies adopted by the last Government.
It is breathtaking to sit in this debate listening to the Opposition. It is as though the last 13 years of their Government did not exist. It is as though they were not here, and as though some of them have landed from planet Zog. They talk about things that bear no resemblance to the reality of the policies that they pursued, and the consequences that we are now living with.
It would be ridiculous to try to argue that it is all the fault of the last Government. We know—others have spoken more eloquently and with greater knowledge than me—about the external factors and forces, but at the heart of this nation’s problem is our deficit. One does not have to be a woman or to run a family budget to know that the matter is simple. One works out how much money is coming in, and how much is going out, and tries to ensure that one spends only as much as is coming in. Someone who gets it wrong and spends more than is coming in runs up debt.
Anna Soubry
I am more than happy to give way in a moment to the hon. Lady whose constituency is next to mine in Nottingham.
What people do not do—they recognise this if they are responsible—is to borrow more. If they have reached the maximum on their credit card or their overdraft, they must pull in their horns, live within their means, and cut their expenditure to match their income. Opposition Members struggle with that concept, because they never practised it when in government. That is why we have an appalling level of debt and, worst of all, an appalling level of deficit.
Toby Perkins
The first thing the hon. Lady seems to be suggesting is that the national debt is a brand new concept. The country has always had a national debt. The reality is that until 2008, her party supported our spending plans. The national debt fell between 1997 and 2007 under the Labour Government. She is talking as though the issue is brand new, but the reality is that a global economic crisis caused the scale of the deficit, and she must take that into account.
Anna Soubry
There we have it: the finest example that we could have expected of an Opposition Member who simply does not get it. Deficit deniers—after 18 months of argument, they still do not understand. It is the structural deficit that is our problem. We are not earning as much as we are paying out. We have this debt, and that is what is causing the economic crisis.
Lilian Greenwood
I do not know what planet the hon. Lady was on yesterday, but here we heard that as a result of the Chancellor’s failed economic plans, more people are out of work and as a result he is having to borrow an extra £158 billion, which is making the deficit worse.
Anna Soubry
Again we have another brilliant example of somebody who just does not get it. They do not understand the problems. Some of the problems are external, as I have explained, but at the heart are the failings of 13 years of Labour Government. Some of us are old enough to remember what happened at the end of the Labour Administration before that. My generation, the ones who did our homework by candlelight, had to pick up the pieces. Who was it who had to sort out the mess that Labour created? A Tory Government—and here we are again, all these years later.
I would like to make another point. We all come from different backgrounds, but we all come here for the same reason: to make change. We all want to make things better for everybody in our society, and I find it deeply offensive when the Labour party claims a monopoly on compassion. No one person, party or side has any such monopoly. Nobody on the Government Benches came to this place to make the life of the poor even worse. In fact, many of us came here because we want to eradicate poverty. How rich it is to hear the comments from the Opposition, who failed to hit all their targets for child poverty—after 13 years of their Labour Government, the difference between rich and poor actually grew. That is their legacy and the indictment of the last Government’s failures.
I believe in fairness as much as I believe in compassion. I would much prefer there not to be any need for regulation, but there must be fairness when it comes to restraint and responsibility among executives over their pay. Other hon. Members have touched on the issue. It is just not on to see the levels of pay and bonuses that we have seen in the financial sector. I urge all those people to exercise restraint and responsibility in difficult times, which affect every other one of us.
I reject the Opposition motion and support the autumn statement so eloquently explained to us yesterday. I do not wish to tread on the toes of the hon. Member for Nottingham South (Lilian Greenwood), but I am sure that, like me, she will welcome one of the proposals in that statement—the widening and improvement of the A453. It does not lie in my constituency, although if the Boundary Commission gets its way, a large part of it will, but that work will have a profound benefit for the people of Greater Nottingham and the whole county.
I commend the Conservative-led county council for their efforts in bringing everybody together to persuade the powers that be that the improvement and widening of the A453 would bring great economic benefit to Greater Nottingham, including my constituency of Broxtowe. Many things are happening, such as the extension of the tram, that give people hope for the future—the prospect of more jobs and apprenticeships. I am happy to reject the motion and support the Chancellor in all he does to make a better future for all of us, especially our children.
Lilian Greenwood (Nottingham South) (Lab)
I agree with the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry); I do welcome the work on the A453. However, if her Government had not cancelled it 18 months ago, work would already have been under way.
Families in Nottingham are finding life hard this autumn. They tell me that they are worried about turning up the heating because gas bills have shot up. It costs more and more to do the weekly shop, they pay more for the bus and it costs a fortune to fill up the car. Thousands have found themselves out of work, but even if they have a job, their wages are likely to be frozen or rising by less than inflation. There certainly is not much left over for Christmas presents or occasional treats, let alone holidays or major purchases.
Andrea Leadsom (South Northamptonshire) (Con)
What has happened to their mortgage rates?
Lilian Greenwood
Obviously those who are home owners are paying low interest rates, but many who rent their home are having to pay a lot more.
People in my city are angry that the irresponsible behaviour of a small number of people in banks brought our economy to the verge of collapse. They do not feel that those who caused the damage are doing enough to pay for the costs. They are also angry that the Government are making the situation much more difficult by putting up VAT, freezing child benefit, cutting the support families get for child care, taking away their children’s education maintenance allowance, or closing down services they rely on. A year ago, the Chancellor claimed that his £40 billion of extra cuts were necessary to get borrowing down, but now we know that borrowing will be £158 billion higher than he planned—a lot of pain for no gain. It was his decision to cut too far and too fast that choked off growth and led to rising unemployment: more people are claiming benefits and fewer people are paying taxes; people have less money to spend, so businesses struggle and more people lose their jobs. It is a vicious circle that this Government helped to create.
Thousands of people in my constituency face an even bigger hit. Public sector workers are being told that they have to find an extra 3.2% from their pay packets to help the Government pay down the deficit. Teaching assistants, nurses and youth workers are all being asked to pay more. The Government say they need to pour more money into their pensions, but the money is not going to boost their pension scheme; it is going straight to the Treasury. That is why people who have never taken part in a strike in their lives are doing so today. They feel they have no choice. This is the last resort when their employers simply will not listen or negotiate properly.
Let me tell the House about one hard-working family in my constituency that this Government are squeezing. Mark Thomas works for the city council as a neighbourhood enforcement officer. His job is to inspect houses in multiple occupation, of which there are thousands in Nottingham, particularly around our universities. Mark does vital work protecting public health and ensuring that young people are not exploited by unscrupulous landlords. In July this year, Mark and his partner Alison bought their first home together, and Mark’s 14-year-old son lives with them every other week. Like most people, they worked out how much they could afford, taking account of all the other bills they would have to pay each month and how much they had coming in through their wages. In addition to the usual utility bills, Mark pays child support to his son’s mother. Alison went to university to improve her career prospects and has student loan payments deducted from her salary. As Mark says,
“We are not a wealthy family. I would class us as average, getting by”.
Mark earns £2,500 less than the national average wage and currently pays £120 a month towards his pension. If the proposals to increase pension contributions go ahead, Mark will be paying half as much again—an extra £60 a month. Perhaps a member of the Cabinet would not notice £60 a month, but ordinary people who are not completely out of touch know that that is a lot extra, especially when their pay has been frozen for two years already. Mark and Alison face a double whammy because Alison also works for the city council, as an environmental health officer. She earns a bit more than Mark and pays £155 a month toward her pension, so her 50% increase will be £77 a month. One Nottingham family, an average family, getting by, is being asked to find an extra £137.50 each month, not to benefit their pension fund, but to help the Treasury pay down the deficit—a deficit caused by bankers; a deficit that this Government are making worse.
Mark and Alison are worried sick about finding that extra money. Mark says,
“£137.50 would pay our council tax, or buy gas and electric credit for the month, or pay for a large amount of grocery shopping. We already have to save over a number of months to buy necessities such as glasses and dental treatment.”
Mark is anxious that he will not be able to give his son the life he wanted to. He is worried that his son might choose to spend more time at his mum’s house because she is able to provide for him better financially. I am pretty sure that Ministers do not lie awake at night worrying about their family like that, and Mark and Alison should not have to either.
Of course pensions have to be sustainable and affordable, but changes have to be fair. They have to be fair to taxpayers—of course, public servants are taxpayers themselves—but also fair to the people who care for us when we are sick, educate our children and keep our streets clean and safe. The Government need to stop attacking the people our communities rely on day in, day out. They need to listen to why people are so angry and they need to try to resolve the dispute by engaging in real negotiations.
Jessica Lee (Erewash) (Con)
I am delighted to be able to speak about this important subject. I believe that if the country is ever to improve living standards for the long term, three elements will be necessary. We need a Government who have a vision of how such an improvement is to be achieved, who will consider in detail how they can empower families and businesses, and who will deal with the cycles of poverty that trap people in the benefits system and work to make those people’s lives better.
I want to suggest some ways in which we can improve the living standards of families and children, especially vulnerable children, and also help businesses. The most vulnerable children, surely, are those who do not have parents. Their lives are troubled from the beginning. They are children of the state, looked-after children. Thousands of people work with those children throughout the country, doing a really good job in children’s services, the voluntary sector and many other areas, but they need support. For many years there has been a disturbing trend towards disproportionately low outcomes for looked-after children. Their educational outcomes are poor, and the number who turn to crime is disproportionately large.
We simply must do better for those vulnerable children. Such changes can never happen overnight, but I believe that the Government have got off to a promising start. We have benefited from the expertise of the right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field), whose report on child poverty is a fascinating document containing real insights on how we can make progress, and the hon. Member for Nottingham North (Mr Allen), who also happens to sit on the Opposition Benches and who spoke about early intervention during Prime Minister’s questions today. That is a key theme. If we can target and help vulnerable children with early intervention policies, it will be entirely possible to improve their outcomes. That is the most important aspect, but they will also become less of a financial burden—if I may put it that way—on the state and on taxpayers.
Amber Rudd
Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government’s commitment to provide 4,200 new health visitors will help to reinforce that early intervention message?
Jessica Lee
I do agree. Other policies will also be helpful, although sadly I have not enough time to list them all. We have the pupil premium and the reports that have been commissioned, including those dealing with social workers produced by Eileen Munro and other experts.
Andrea Leadsom
Does my hon. Friend also agree that the Government will be able to save money at local council level by promoting infant early intervention programmes? By helping struggling families at the outset, they will save society much more money further down the track, because those families have been supported from the beginning.
Jessica Lee
I entirely agree. I know that my hon. Friend has spent some years examining the issue while running a charity. I think that all Members agree that early intervention will benefit young people, and that we must do all that we can to implement it.
Glenda Jackson
No one would disagree with the hon. Lady’s argument, but unfortunately the Government have made the provision of early intervention virtually impossible by removing the ring fence from Sure Start funds, and removing the other support systems that are necessary to produce the results that she and every other Member desires.
Jessica Lee
I disagree completely with the hon. Lady’s comments. That sort of scaremongering about local children’s services is not helpful. [Interruption.] This Government have gone out of their way—[Interruption.]
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I do not think we need any shouting across the Chamber, either from the Government or the Opposition Benches. We should listen to the debate—although this might be the umpteenth time that that has been said this afternoon.
Jessica Lee
This is a Government who have shown from the outset, within the first few weeks of their formation, a genuine commitment and a refreshing approach to how we deal with the most vulnerable children. I support what they are doing on that.
There are many other aspects that I do not have time to go through in detail. I mentioned empowering people and giving them opportunities. The Secretary of State has spent years in his work for the Centre for Social Justice examining what is wrong and where the difficulties are in society, and pinpointing the problems. He has been coming forward with radical proposals such as universal credit. We in this House may not agree on the outcomes of those policies, but it is that type of bold, progressive move that we must adopt. Such moves help families who have been trapped in cycles and years of poverty to move on, and give them opportunities that they might otherwise never have.
In the brief time that remains, I want to deal with business. Another aspect of this debate is women and how the Government are working to support them. There are many women in businesses in Erewash who are doing a fantastic job. I welcome recent policies such as establishing 5,000 mentors to help existing women entrepreneurs to develop their businesses. We all know that many women will have to struggle with child care and family commitments, but many start-ups begin at home, on laptops or round the coffee table. We need to support women much more, so I welcome those and other policies such as the Women’s Business Council.
Last week, I spoke in the House during the manufacturing debate. I happen to be the only female MP to have made a substantive speech in that debate, but manufacturing is very important to my constituency, so I want to say in conclusion that it is by supporting business, manufacturing and the policies to help families which I have mentioned that we will improve living standards.
Hugh Bayley (York Central) (Lab)
I am somewhat surprised by how few Members on the Government Benches seem to have realised that the Government’s policy has changed. They have spent 18 months reading out the brief from their Whips Office—or wherever it comes from—and complaining about the legacy of high debt which they inherited when they came to power. However, I say to the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) that the national debt at the time of the general election was £760 billion. In the first year of the coalition Government, it rose to £905 billion. In the middle of a financial crisis, the coalition Government are doing what the Labour Government did in the middle of a financial crisis. When in opposition, they argued against the private finance initiative.
Hugh Bayley
No; I will make my case, if I may.
In opposition, the Government argued against the PFI, but their investment stimulus, which was announced yesterday—I was one of those who applauded it—is going to be paid for by the same sort of off-balance-sheet private finance as financed the PFI.
Yesterday, I ran the risk of incurring anger from my colleagues by welcoming the Chancellor’s plan B. It is a small plan B, but it is £5 billion of Government money backed up by further off-balance-sheet money from the private sector to stimulate the economy. The Chancellor does not call it a plan B. That would be embarrassing, as he has spent 18 months telling us that there is no alternative to plan A: savage cuts in public investment and infrastructure. But now it is plain for all to see that there has been a U-turn.
I congratulate the Chancellor on having the courage to start to do what is right and necessary for the economy. We heard about the U-turn in relation to a road in Nottinghamshire that was cancelled by the coalition Government and has now been reinstated. The Access York scheme—a £22 million improvement to the city’s park-and-ride system—is another good illustration. It was approved by the previous Labour Government, stopped by the coalition one month after the general election, and has now been reinstated, and I thank the coalition Government for that. In the short term, that green transport system will create construction jobs in my constituency, and in the longer term it will attract more visitors to York who will spend money in the shops and the visitor economy.
Nobody so far has mentioned the situation of the NHS. The Government promised that they would not cut NHS spending in real terms. I asked the Library to look at the figures for my PCT area, where many services are being cut. Gastric band surgery for the obese is not available on the same terms in North Yorkshire and York as in neighbouring areas. Facet joint injections for back pain are available elsewhere but not in York. Assisted fertility is available in neighbouring health authority areas, but not in York.
In the last year of the Labour Government, the increase to the PCT budget was 5.8%, which, with inflation running at 3.7%, was a net increase of 2.1%. In the first year of the coalition Government, the local PCT budget was increased by 2.2% but, with RPI running at 4%, that was a 1.8% cut in real terms. Nationally, the figures tell a similar story. In 2011-12, the real-terms cut in NHS funding is 0.56% on the previous year, and in 2012-13 it is predicted to be 0.33%. The Government gave a pledge not to cut NHS funding, and with inflation running at higher levels than they were anticipating, it is necessary for the Treasury to increase NHS funding to meet that pledge. I ask the Minister to respond to that point particularly.
Toby Perkins
What my hon. Friend says about the NHS is absolutely right, but there was also a pledge not to have any major reorganisations of the NHS. In Chesterfield, alongside the financial pressures that the NHS would have been under anyway, additional resources are being spent on reorganisation rather than on patient care. That is the other major problem that the NHS is facing.
Hugh Bayley
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The reason why, under a Labour Government, there was a 2% real-terms increase in the NHS budget is that the cost of an ageing population and the new medical technologies introduced to the NHS is roughly 2% a year. A 2% real-terms increase, therefore, is a standstill in the ability to treat patients, but adding in a costly health service reorganisation and a real-terms cut in the budget means a savage cut in the availability of care for NHS patients.
Damian Hinds (East Hampshire) (Con)
At what point was the £20 billion shortfall in NHS financing spotted?
Hugh Bayley
The hon. Gentleman should simply look at the record of the 13 years when Labour was in power. The real budget of the NHS almost doubled, but now we are seeing its real spending power being reduced, which his party promised that it would not cut.
I want to speak briefly about help for small and medium-sized enterprises. Autohorn, a successful York business, runs the Europcar franchise and other car leasing and care hire businesses in my constituency, employing 60 staff. A couple of months ago, one of the high street banks withdrew a credit line worth £750,000, which financed roughly a sixth of the company’s fleet. I wrote to the Minister with responsibility for small businesses and asked what he could do to help. He was sympathetic, but offered no practical help. I went to the bank, and I am pleased to say that it has renegotiated with the company and reinstated the credit line. The jobs in that business are now safe, and I hope that it will expand and take on more people. None the less, I say to the Government, “The rhetoric is right, but please, you must do more to back up your rhetoric.” They should make the banks do what they say they are doing and extend credit to successful businesses.
There is no time for me to say what I intended to say about the debt, but let me just say this: there is no argument between our parties about the need to reduce the deficit, but there is a sharp difference about how to do it. The Government’s plan A has made a difficult situation worse over the past 18 months. By cutting growth they have cut tax revenues, and by driving up unemployment they have increased spending. It is time for them to change their policy.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dawn Primarolo)
Order. I am going to reduce the time limit again. There are still 21 Members who wish to contribute to the debate, and the wind-ups are due to start in 55 minutes. Starting with the next speaker, the time limit will be four minutes.
Andrew Jones (Harrogate and Knaresborough) (Con)
Conscious of the time, I will scamper through what I had written down. I am grateful for the opportunity to speak today, because I want to disagree with the motion. At the heart of it is the idea that household living standards are being squeezed only by the effects of Government policies. Such an idea fails to recognise the economic challenges that this country and other countries are facing. Those problems are debt and what we do with it, combined with the impact of rising prices.
The average household is now paying £1,800 per year in tax just to cover the interest on the debts that the last Government left. That is a huge sum, and because it is combined with big rises in prices and with incomes that are often static, I have no doubt that everyone is indeed feeling squeezed. That is certainly the message that I am hearing from my constituency—but I think that my constituents know where the squeeze is coming from. They see it in the salaries that they earn, which are not increasing; indeed, their salaries may be falling, as hours may be cut or overtime reduced. They see it in the supermarket, with food prices going up, and they see it when they fill their car with petrol or buy domestic fuel.
My constituents also see huge uncertainty every time they tune in to the news and see, across the economies of Europe and the United States—countries that have traditionally been seen as stable and affluent—enormous challenges. People know that this country and others have been living way beyond our means, and that correcting that will be a necessary but unpleasant task—a task made more difficult by the international turmoil.
The key reason why the motion is wrong is that the Government have taken clear and decisive action on the issues that my constituents have raised with me. The Government cannot be accused of being out of touch when they have made so many efforts. We should remember what would happen if we stopped making those efforts to reduce our deficit and protect living standards, and if we ignored the financial reality, as Labour Members seem to.
The impact would be higher interest rates. As has already been said, a 1% increase in interest rates would add £10 billion to mortgage bills. That equates to £1,000 per household. It would also add £7 billion to the cost of interest paid by business, taking away more money that should be directed into business investment.
That is the big picture. Keep interest rates down to protect jobs and living standards.
Amber Rudd
Does my hon. Friend agree that that situation was particularly highlighted by the fact that this country could have been in danger of having its debt downgraded? Before the general election, Moody’s and Fitch were watching the previous Government, and had threatened to downgrade.
Andrew Jones
My hon. Friend makes a wise point, as ever. Protecting mortgage rates and the rates that businesses pay, and the rates at which our Government can borrow, is critical to our longer-term financial success.
It is fair to say that while we are going through this corrective process, the Government are taking action to protect the living standards of people in this country. I would highlight the 1 million people who are being taken out of tax altogether, and the protection of the state pension by the triple lock. I know that the increase of £5.30 in the basic state pension announced yesterday will be particularly welcome in my constituency, which has quite a high average age profile. People often assume that the community in my constituency is uniformly affluent. That is not the case; there are pockets of real poverty, particularly among pensioners living on fixed incomes.
My constituency is in North Yorkshire, one of the most rural counties in the country. People have to travel long distances to reach work or to access services. I therefore welcome the initiatives on fuel duty, especially the cancellation of January’s increase. Opposition Members are wrong not to recognise the impact the fuel duty escalator had on prices, and I hope they will support the actions being taken by this Government, as a result of which fuel duty will be 10p lower than it would otherwise have been. That amounts to an average saving of £144 a year, and I suspect the figure will be higher for those in rural areas.
These are concrete examples of the action this Government are taking to protect living standards. They are taking action on the issues my constituents raise with me. It is therefore wrong to claim that the Government are out of touch or are not taking action. The motion fails to recognise how much is being done and, astonishingly, maintains the pretence that there is no financial problem to tackle.
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
This Government are having a big impact on poorer people. We see that particularly clearly in my constituency, where 21% of households have an income of less than £15,000 per annum. Indeed, we have the dubious honour of being beaten in that regard by only one other London borough. As of March this year the majority of young people in my constituency—just over 58% of those aged up to 19 years—lived in households in receipt of means-tested benefits. In Hackney, 39% of adults live in households receiving benefit, and that proportion rises to a staggeringly high 71% when we combine those in social housing and lone parents with two or more children.
I would therefore be very concerned about the impacts on real people of the policies of any Government. In this House, we often hear esoteric debate about the impacts of quantitative easing and the big economic arguments. However, although it is important that we deal with the deficit, we are not accountants. Rather, we are politicians, and we need to challenge Government about such impacts on people and we need to bring people with us.
I want to tell Members a little about some of the people in my constituency, therefore. Many Members have spoken about the many financial pressures facing people, and I might add that businesses in Hackney central, my area’s main shopping centre, tell me that footfall is down by about 40%. Things are hard for them too, therefore, as greater pressure on household incomes means people have less money to spend.
Some families facing financial pressures in my constituency will also face a shortfall in housing benefit from next year, and they will have to cover that by finding some money from their other income. Where will they find that money, however, given all the other price increases, such as for food and energy?
This week, I met a young mother who works at McDonald’s. She does the 5 am to 9 am shift so that her husband can look after the children, and she works 16 hours so that she can get help in the form of tax credits, but the Chancellor’s announcements of this week will have an impact on that.
My constituency may have higher than average deprivation figures, but there is no lack of aspiration. In the last week alone, I have met two middle-aged women who used to work in schools before losing their jobs, but who are keen to get new jobs—to do any job in order to work—and I met a young African woman, immaculately turned out and at a good school, who is keen to go on to university, but her home is minimally furnished, with clothes stored in suitcases and the household investing only in necessities, as their income does not stretch to purchasing items that Members of this House would expect to be able to have.
We need to focus on the impacts on real people, and I therefore welcome the Government’s support for disadvantaged two-year-olds. All Members regardless of party allegiance agree that early intervention is crucial, but the key question is how we do that. Other Government measures are having a disproportionately great impact on poorer households, of which I represent many.
Andrea Leadsom
Is the hon. Lady aware that an all-party group inquiry into Sure Start found that fewer than 10 children’s centres had closed? Local councils have shown huge commitment to the ongoing success of this important matter.
Meg Hillier
It is easy for the Government to talk in figures, but many centres have been run down to the bare minimum and are helping just a few families, whereas before it was a universal service, which was one of the benefits.
The children in my constituency who turn up at school without breakfast because of their alcoholic or drug-addicted parents—the same children who turn up malnourished at the end of the school holidays—are the young people whom we should be helping to have a better future. All the Government’s actions—all the talk as though the Government are accountants—do not help those families. Whatever our party, we should not be hoodwinked by academic and esoteric debate but should govern for the people we represent and remember that not all of them enjoy the same advantages as we in this place do.
Claire Perry (Devizes) (Con)
May I start by saying that I completely agree with the hon. Member for Hackney South and Shoreditch (Meg Hillier)? When we politicians talk about billions, deciles and quantitative easing it does not resonate in my constituency. It is 25 days to Christmas and 61% of people say that they are cutting their Christmas spending this year, but we often fail to recognise that.
In my short speech I shall therefore try to concentrate on what happens to the pound in someone’s pocket when it enters a household in my constituency, where the average income is £23,000—well below the national average—and where public sector employment is about 35%.
The top slice is taxation. The Government have done a huge amount, especially at the lower end of the tax scales, to lift the poorest people out of taxation. I am incredibly proud of the fact that from next April more than 1 million people will be lifted out of taxation altogether, 60% of whom will be women. That is a far more efficient way of delivering benefits through the tax system than dealing with tax credits, which though a laudable idea are expensive and difficult to manage and result in huge fraud and complexity amounting to billions of pounds a year.
There has been a council tax freeze across the country. We have given councils money to renew that, which is worth £72 a year to my working families in Devizes.
According to the family spending survey, families’ second highest expense is housing, about which we have heard much today. There are families who are struggling to get any housing. In Wiltshire, more than 12,000 families are waiting for affordable housing. My constituents, Nicky and Lee of Pewsey, who are expecting a child, are living in hugely overcrowded, damp conditions, which I have seen and in which I would not house an animal, let alone a young family. The Government’s radical housing reform is designed to help exactly such people. We must get Britain building again, and we must build sufficient affordable housing, which we have failed to do for the past 13 years.
We have heard much about mortgages. Significantly, mortgage payers across all income deciles, to use that hideous term, are saving £10 billion a year as a result of low interest rates—an important benefit to families across the country.
Given the preponderance of service families in my constituency, the Government’s work to put service families at the top of housing allocations, where possible, is hugely valuable.
Families’ next highest expense is fuel and transport. Like many Members, I live in a rural constituency where we have to use our cars. I welcome the fact that by next April fuel will be 10p cheaper and that, by the end of the year, we will save ordinary working families £144 a year in filling up their cars.
We have focused massively on energy consumption. Through the green deal, we are working on greening the most vulnerable households, which is very important.
I welcome this debate and the chance to talk about those whose voices are often the quietest—pensioners and children in care, for example—and it is our job to speak up for them.
Let us be clear: the tough decisions facing this Government would have faced any Government. We must be fair to the next generation—the children of today who will be the workers and taxpayers of tomorrow and who will pay for our pensions and meet our NHS expenditure. Let us have less ideology and more common sense.
Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab)
We have heard many Members on the Government Benches, including the Secretary of State, complain about the level of the structural deficit. However, I recall that up until the financial crash the Prime Minister and the Chancellor supported every penny piece of our expenditure. It was only when the crash hit that they changed their position. To be fair, the Secretary of State, in the period when he was Leader of the Opposition, did not support our spending, but the current Prime Minister certainly did.
I shall make a few comments about the rising cost of living. I think it was the Governor of the Bank of England who said earlier this year that households in 2011 would experience the toughest squeeze in living standards since the 1920s. That has been endorsed by the OBR, which stated yesterday that
“household disposable income is forecast to have fallen by 2.3 per cent this year, a post-war record.”
The OBR went on to predict that it will not be until 2014 that earnings will rise faster than prices. That means, in effect, that over the course of 2010 to 2015 the average growth in real household disposable income will be just 0.5% per annum. It is no wonder that household spending has been so weak and that in the run-up to Christmas we had an extraordinary report from the CBI this week showing that shops are laying off workers at the fastest rate for two years.
Although there were some measures in the autumn statement to help people, such as the fuel duty change, the Chancellor is paying for the changes that he introduced by means of a public sector pay freeze and hitting low- paid workers who rely on tax credits. As I understand it, the changes to tax credits amount to a cut of £1.3 billion to families, affecting 5.5 million families.
I read today in The Times that Tory sources are baffled that Liberal Democrats agreed to this. My constituents will not be baffled when they find out about it. They will be livid when they see what the tax credit cut will be for them. I am particularly concerned because that will lead to an increase in child poverty. The Treasury’s own figures show an increase of 100,000. In Leicester child poverty is a particular issue, and the cut will only make matters worse.
We are plainly not in this together. The Chancellor is not in this together with the young mother on the Saffron Lane estate in Leicester who is seeing her tax credit cut. The Chancellor is not in this together with the young people in Highfields who are still unemployed. Members on the Opposition Benches have been calling for a youth unemployment scheme. I hope that the youth contract announced by the Deputy Prime Minister is a success, but as my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (David Miliband) so eloquently explained, a similar scheme introduced by the Lord Chancellor when he was Chancellor in the mid-1990s was an utter failure. I hope the scheme succeeds, but we on the Opposition Benches will scrutinise it carefully. Many constituents ask me whether it would have been better to keep the future jobs fund. They also ask why on earth young people in Leicester have to wait until next April for the scheme to be introduced.
I want to say a few words about the industrial dispute going on today. Many of my constituents are on strike. They take industrial action reluctantly and with a heavy heart. Earlier today the Paymaster General said that he is prepared to consider suggestions on the 3%. I want him to go further, and perhaps the Minister might respond to this. Will he think about going further and look at entering meaningful negotiations on that 3%?
When we left office, the economy was growing, unemployment was falling and inflation was under control. We now have next to no growth, record unemployment and one of the highest inflation levels in Europe.
Amber Rudd (Hastings and Rye) (Con)
There has been much talk this afternoon about real people. Thinking about the incredibly important subject of living standards, I thought about a real person I met in 2007. In my constituency, in an extremely poor ward, I met a woman who had just come back from work. She said to me, speaking about the then Government, “Why do they bother giving me a pay packet at all? All I get is the leftovers. Why don’t they just give me the pocket money?” She had just been affected by the 10p tax cut, which famously affected 60% of women and was so damaging to the lowest paid.
Living standards is the overriding important issue that politicians try to work on to improve quality of life for everybody. It is the practical application of the famous phrase, “It’s the economy, stupid”, because it is the private economy, the budget, of individuals and families. There are so many levers that politicians try to move to work on living standards, and in the time allowed to me I will focus on two: taxation and jobs.
I mentioned the lady from Hastings, who lives in Bevan court in Hollington. As a low earner, she will now be approaching being taken out of tax. This has been referred to many times this afternoon, and I repeat that taking people out of tax is one of the most important things the Government can do to combat poverty and raise living standards. I urge the Government, however choppy the economic waters get, to ensure that they stick to the commitment to increase the level to £10,000. Aligned to increasing the level is tax simplification, which really would be welcomed.
Undoubtedly the best way to raise living standards is to help people who do not have a job to get one. I welcome the Government’s initiatives in relation to the youth contract and apprentices, because poverty really becomes entrenched where families follow each other into unemployment. I hope that the universal credit will mitigate some of that, with its associated reforms to help make work pay, such as introducing free child care for when mothers go out to work for one hour rather than their having to work a minimum of 16 hours. The best way to improve living standards is to create jobs and the best way to do that is to stimulate the private sector. I thought that the new president of the CBI, Sir Roger Carr, put it very well when he said:
“Government can set the climate, but it is business that must deliver the goods.”
Yes, we can set the climate, but we cannot produce the jobs. We must encourage the private sector to do that. This Government are doing their best to set that climate fair, despite what is going on in the eurozone and despite the inheritance we had. That is the best way to raise living standards.
Heather Wheeler (South Derbyshire) (Con)
Would my hon. Friend like to congratulate the great people of South Derbyshire on bringing forward 1,500 jobs in the Toyota factory and 300 jobs at the Nestlé factory?
Amber Rudd
It is great to hear about that marvellous triumph of the private sector. There is another example in Hastings: a year ago Saga moved into the town with up to 800 new jobs. Only 350 have been filled so far, but I hope that they will continue to build on that number. We have high public sector employment in Hastings, so with these changes and cuts, we are delighted to have a major private sector employer able to provide jobs.
Claire Perry
Does my hon. Friend agree that, while we must not forget about the public sector, which is so very valuable to so many families, the best way to protect jobs in the public sector is for pay restraint and pension reform?
Amber Rudd
I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, and I would like to take the opportunity to say how much I respect the people who work in the public sector. I value the important work that they do. I and my family have used our local hospital in Hastings and they do an excellent job. It is important that we recognise the enormous value that the public sector provides, but we need more job creation in the private sector.
Damian Hinds
With employers talking more than ever about work-readiness and employability skills among the young work force, and with the danger of so many young people not being able to get into work quickly, does my hon. Friend agree that work experience placements are a great way of increasing those young people’s value to employers compared with not having had any experience of formal work?
Amber Rudd
I agree with my hon. Friend. The Government’s initiative to bring in work experience is valuable and I understand that the scheme is going well, with people picking up jobs after their work experience.
Sheila Gilmore
Last year we were told that squeezing down the public sector would cause more private sector jobs to appear. That has not happened. Why should we expect it to get any better?
Amber Rudd
Has not the hon. Lady heard the comments from my colleagues and me about growth in the private sector? Five hundred thousand new private sector jobs have been created in the past year. I dispute her statement that these jobs are not being created in the private sector—they are. But I am in no way complacent. I know that we are in difficult times and that people’s living standards are being squeezed.
The Government are doing an incredibly important job. They are doing their best in difficult times to keep up living standards. Above all, they need to get out of the way of job creation, which is the best way of helping people out of poverty.
Lisa Nandy (Wigan) (Lab)
I want to talk about the living standards of women in my constituency who work in the public sector, who are deeply concerned about their prospects for a decent and dignified retirement, and who are today trying to make the Government listen. A third of my constituents are employed in the public sector. All of us in Wigan have friends or family who are affected by the changes to public sector pensions. To them—and to me, having met so many of these workers over the past six months—the Government’s attempt to characterise this as a strike whipped up by a group of self-interested officials not only does not ring true but is, frankly, offensive.
I want to explain to Ministers why so many hard-working, decent people are out on strike today. I have never met a teacher or a nurse who wants to go out on strike; for them, it is a vocation and not just a job. However, like me, they believe strongly in the right of people who have, for very many years, served this country so well, often on very low pay, to retire with dignity. Like me, they do not believe that the interests of the public will be served by running down the professions of which they are so proud to such an extent that nobody in their right mind would go into them. They are as baffled as I am that their Government are describing their pensions—which are, on average, less than £5,000 a year—as gold-plated. Government Members are keen on quoting Lord Hutton; well, I agree with him that we cannot say, in any sense, that public sector pensions are gold-plated.
People pay high premiums for their pensions, and for many women the return is low. My hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce) outlined that convincingly. How many of us in this House face that prospect? I am genuinely grateful that Ministers listened and revised their offer for people who are to retire imminently. That will have a particular impact on women, and I thank them for it. However, I am deeply concerned about the situation for part-time workers whose full-time pay may be over £15,000 but whose real pay is far less. What will their Government do for them?
I want to set out what my constituents would like to happen. First, I will address the problem of affordability. Public sector workers are being hit from all directions. Thanks to the Secretary of State, teachers in academies face a pay freeze, and possibly a pay cut. Women are also having to face cuts to child care, tax credits and family support. I put it to Ministers that a scheme that is not affordable is also not sustainable. Young people are saying to me that they will not be opting into these schemes. They are willing to pay into them, but they want to know where the money is going—to know that it is going into the pension scheme. They are not willing to make sacrifices through their pay—
Lisa Nandy
We have heard enough from Government Members—it is time they listened.
People are willing to make sacrifices but not to pay for the deficit while bankers continue to receive huge bonuses and executive pay in the City continues to rise. I urge Ministers to understand that in some professions, such as teaching and policing, it is unrealistic to ask people to work until they are in their late 60s. Will they please look at the situation of people who do hard, front-line work day in, day out, and recognise that it is unrealistic to ask them to work for that long?
My constituents and I want the Government to set an example. It is not good enough to say that because low-paid private sector workers receive appallingly low pensions their public sector counterparts should receive the same. The Government should be setting an example to employers by taking a lead on tackling the grossly unfair pay and pensions gap between high-paid and low-paid private sector workers, not pushing their own employees into the most appalling poverty after a lifetime of service.
Nick de Bois (Enfield North) (Con)
Given the constraints on time and the number of people who wish to speak, which shows how seriously Members on both sides of the House take this issue, I will try to limit my remarks.
The obvious route to improving living standards is to help as many people back into work as possible. Instead of focusing on the points that have been made about some of the very good schemes that have been introduced, I should like to start with structural issues to do with employment. There is no question but that the Government are introducing measures that will help to increase employment. For example, they are looking at rebalancing out-of-work incentives. We are trying to make work pay through the very welcome introduction of higher personal allowances, which will help people at the lower end of the scale. We are also, as the Secretary of State outlined, looking at the bigger picture of welfare reform.
However, we have to consider matters beyond that. As a former employer who started a business with one or two people and ended up with 100 people, I saw, and shared, the intense pleasure of recruiting someone into a new job or their first job. I also understood, and felt, the enormous pain, and sometimes shame, of people who underwent redundancy through no fault of their own. In the last two years of my working time before I came into Parliament, I was very worried by the level of the CVs that were being produced and the failure of candidates to articulate themselves with even basic English or a basic education. That was a clear sign that some people were being failed by their education. I am sure we all agree on the common goal to improve education and raise standards, but there is no question but that the structural changes that we are introducing will improve people’s chances and lead to a fundamental generational change for the future. If those changes fail, we may be back here in 10 years, still talking about the problem.
Mr Stewart Jackson (Peterborough) (Con)
Has my hon. Friend, like me, noted the lack of contrition from the Labour party in its failure to apologise for driving many people into welfare dependency through its policy of unrestricted immigration over the last 13 years?
Nick de Bois
I welcome my hon. Friend’s comments on the complex issues that he raised. We have to consider the consequences of both those issues, but I shall continue to examine the structural changes I was discussing.
The welcome sign for the future is that we have rightly shifted the emphasis from a purely academic route and are now pushing vocational routes, whether through apprenticeships or through further skills and training, giving people a choice from the age of 14 or 16 that will meet the skill needs of employers. Otherwise, we could be back here in 10 years discussing many of the same issues.
With the changes that are being introduced, we need to look at the tactical areas where we can help people get into Work that will meet the immediate challenges of improving both their life chances and their living standards. I have met Work programme providers and witnessed how they are determined to provide long-term jobs for those who are unemployed and going through the new system. These programmes are to be welcomed because they seek to provide a long-term, rather than a short-term, solution.
I am particularly impressed by the early results of the work experience programmes, working with the jobcentres, where people who had little chance of breaking the dependency culture and moving to independence are put into a work environment and employers are encouraged to take them on. As a result, over half of those who have been in such employment for three months are getting full-time work. I do not subscribe to the theory that so many people just wish to sit on benefits. The road to work is through breaking the cycle of dependency and putting people into an environment where they relish the challenge and want to work. That is the very life chance that they will be able to see, given the chance to improve their opportunities, shaped around the proposals of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State.
Much has been said about the debt interest. It is shocking that this country pays about £46 billion a year to service debt in return for nothing. The worst thing is that that money is going to our competitors. The people who are lending us money are the people who will make it harder to help people in this country improve their life chances.
Glenda Jackson (Hampstead and Kilburn) (Lab)
Yesterday, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as for the last 18 months and assiduously supported by his Back-Bench colleagues, blamed our flatlining economy, constantly rising unemployment and failure of small businesses to obtain loans from banks on the enormous debts that this country was left by the previous Labour Government. His other argument was that the Labour Government had failed to mend the roof when the sun was shining. Those of us who had lived through 18 years of Conservative Government knew that it was not only the roof that needed mending, but also the foundations: our schools, our hospitals, our infrastructure, our social services.
The interesting point that the Chancellor of the Exchequer made yesterday was that our flatlining economy, constantly rising unemployment and consistent failure of small businesses to obtain loans was because, actually, the debt was even greater. What puzzles me is why the Chancellor of the Exchequer, after 18 months and with all the services that the Treasury provides to him, has clearly failed to make the numbers add up. Are we really left with the realisation that we have a Chancellor of the Exchequer who cannot count? I rather worry that we probably are.
The Chancellor then went on with the other canard that his Government have floated ever since they entered office—that this particular crisis is one in which we are all in it together, and that his economic polices will protect our state from the storm. His idea of protecting our state from the storm reminds me of the old Grecian city of Sparta, where the state was protected by exposing the most vulnerable on the harshest, coldest, stormiest mountain that could be found. That seems to be the example that his Government are following, because we simply are not all in this together.
The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions seemed today to state, with great sang froid, that the lowest three deciles in our society carry three times the burden of the top decile, and Government Members throughout the afternoon have stated that all our children must be protected from the terrible debt burden that they will have to face if we do not continue with an economy in which there is almost no growth—because we are all in this together.
It is highly unlikely that any child whose parent and/or parents sit on the Government Benches is in the situation facing many children in families in my constituency, where there is a strong possibility that, owing to the changes that the Government have introduced, most markedly to housing benefit, they will lose their homes. Indeed, they will lose not only their homes, but their schools—that is, those who are fortunate enough to have a place at a school in their area, because in my constituency, although apparently we are all in this together, there is a terrible dearth of school places. The dearth used to be in secondary schools; now it is in junior schools.
We hear from the Government all these wonderful stories about the free schools that will come in down the road, and about the academies that will be built, but they have not been built yet. It is simply not true, as we have heard. The Government’s changes—in relation to the abolition of the ring-fence around children’s centres and the supposed protection of Sure Start—are taking place throughout the country. I have mothers in my constituency who simply cannot find adequate child care—
Bob Stewart (Beckenham) (Con)
I am very sad that people have seen fit to go on strike today, and I regret it a great deal. I am very pleased that only about 135,000 people seem to have gone on strike, and that they amount to only about one third of those who could have gone on strike.
Some people seem to be happy with the strikes—and in my family they are two teenage girls, whose schools have been closed today. I am very unhappy about that, so my standard of living has, indeed, been touched. I presume the reason why people have gone on strike is to try, ostensibly at least, to retain a high standard of living when they are pensioners—so they think.
I am very pleased to hear for the first time today that we are living 10 years longer than we did in the 1970s, but somehow we have to find the means to look after those people properly until the end of their life, and no one in the House wants to do anything but that.
When I left the services, I tried to ensure that I had a decent pension, and I saved hugely, but in almost two months I lost 20% of what I had saved, and I had saved about one third of what I had made since I had left the Army. So I understand what happens when one loses a lot of money in a pension fund, and I was horrified.
I understand that private sector workers would have to put about 30% more into a pension pot if they wanted a similar pension. We would all like to raise pensions, but we just do not have the money. Let us remember that about 20% of the people who work in the United Kingdom are paid directly or indirectly by the Government. The Office for National Statistics suggested in June that, accounting for gender, age, occupation, region and qualifications, a public sector worker earns on average 7.8% more an hour than a private sector worker.
It is interesting that we all want pensioners to have the best quality and standard of life right until the end. I do not disagree with Members on either side of the House when they say that we should do everything in our power to get pensioners everything they want. I am pleased that those who earn a salary of up to £15,000 on full-time equivalent will not have to pay any more and saddened that others will have to pay more until they retire to provide the means for decent pensions. The Prime Minister said earlier that a nurse earning £34,000 will get a pension of £22,000 when she retires. I am sure that all of us in the House—[Interruption.] Hon. Members can barrack all they want, but all of us agree on one thing: we want to give our pensioners the best possible standard of life until they drop down. We all agree on that, but it is how we do it that matters.
Frank Dobson (Holborn and St Pancras) (Lab)
I think that it will be generally accepted that people’s long-term living standards depend on decent pensions and that as a society generally we need to save more. Until now, having a pension has been seen as the safest way of saving—
Frank Dobson
I certainly shall not.
Over the past few years people in the private sector have seen their bosses slash the pensions available and swindle them out of what they thought they signed up to when they joined their pension scheme. Now the Government are turning that idea on the public sector, with higher contributions, longer years of work and then lower pensions. One of the dangers is the lesson people will draw from what has happened in the private sector and is now proposed for the public sector. The Government talk about nudge, but the nudge will now encourage people not to bother to save because some swindler, either public or private, will take it off them and they will not get what they thought they signed up for.
On 11 August the Prime Minister repeated his praise for the emergency services, the police, firefighters, ambulance staff and A and E staff. Then he went back to Downing street and proceeded to press on further with trying to undermine the pension provision for all those people, making them work longer, pay more and then get less in their pension. He clearly considers them only when doing a bit of PR at the Dispatch Box. The same is true of the Government’s approach to teachers.
It is impossible to exaggerate the importance of teachers to this country’s future, especially head teachers, whose leadership is crucial in schools, because they do more for wealth creation than anyone in the City of London has ever done. They educate, train and produce adaptable young people who are the greatest asset to wealth creation in this country so that we can compete with the best on quality and not be dragged down to having to compete with the cheapest on price, because that is something we will never do.
The Government ought to wonder why head teachers are going on strike. Not only are they going on strike for the first time, but they have had a strike ballot for the first time. They are determined to improve their schools and believe that the pension proposals, if they go through, will damage their schools in the long term. Everyone accepts that changes are necessary. The teachers have accepted that changes are necessary, and they accepted agreements a year or two ago to make a bigger contribution.
The interesting question that the Government do not answer is why they have not produced the actuarial review of whether the teachers pension fund is in credit or deficit. They know that it is in credit, but they will not produce the answer because they know that it will expose the fact that they are trying to shift money from the teachers to the Treasury to pay for the incompetence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who has made as big a mess as was predicted when he took over as Chancellor. I have nothing more to say, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Huw Irranca-Davies (Ogmore) (Lab)
I am pleased to be called to speak in this important debate to which there have been so many good contributions, but I shall introduce a bit of a downer. If the ghost of Christmas present visited the streets of Ogmore and Bridgend as we run towards Christmas, he would not find a great sight, because we are seeing rising household prices, and a squeeze on incomes because incomes are falling. People who work in retail parks and shops are being asked to reduce their hours, and there is greater job uncertainty. It is not only low earners in working families who are being squeezed; middle earners are being squeezed too. There is a squeeze on the high street, and shops in my constituency are being closed for the first time in 20 years.
There are rises in some areas; there are rising queues at the jobcentres. I am glad the Secretary of State is back in his place. He visited Wales not long ago, and we were pleased to see him. He visited Merthyr where he said there were plenty of jobs out there. On the day he was there, there were 39 jobs, but there were 1,670 people chasing those jobs. He suggested looking in Cardiff, where things would be better. They were better: there were 1,700 jobs there, and 15,000 people were chasing them. I suspect that the situation is no better today. That is the backdrop to this debate.
There are rising queues at my surgeries, at citizens advice bureaux, at housing advice surgeries and, most chronically, at food handout centres. Queues at food handout centres in this century are a repercussion of the current dilemma. Great people are setting up food distribution centres to hand out food, not just to low-earning families but to people who would previously have been thought to be relatively prosperous and doing okay, but are now finding that the squeeze is so acute that they must rely on food handouts.
That is a toxic mix. We are not seeing a rebalancing of the economy between public and private sectors jobs, or seeing private sector growth. We are seeing a rebalancing of the economy from growth to chronic contraction. Why is that coming about, and who is being hurt most? I suggest that the cumulative effect of some of the Government’s new and current policies—those they have put in place over the last year, as well as yesterday—is hurting working families, women and those who are struggling to make ends meet. The Department for Work and Pensions is cutting child care costs from 80% to 70%. That is £13 a week for working families in Ogmore, and around 400 families will be worse off. An Ogmore family with two children will lose an additional £3.70 a week by 2013-14 thanks to the Government’s freeze on child benefit.
In-work families in Ogmore will be £100 per claimant worse off thanks to the freezing of the basic and 30-hour elements of the working tax credit. An average Ogmore family will lose £160 a year because of the increase in the tax credit withdrawal rate. The baby element of child tax credit has been scrapped. No one can put a price on a baby—I have three children in my family—but some money can be paid towards that. The credit was £545, but it has now been scrapped. The average loss from the cut in the second income threshold will be £285 per family. In total, around 9,100 families in Ogmore will be affected by the tax credit cuts. That is a crying shame.
The Government often say that they do not want to learn lessons from the Opposition, so let them learn from Chris Johnes, Oxfam’s director of UK poverty. He said:
“Freezing working tax credits will penalise those who are trying to make a living by working their way out of poverty—this should be among the last places the Government looks to make savings. At a time when the lowest-income households are already struggling to make ends meet, it could push even more working people into poverty.”
That is the Government’s legacy.
Julie Hilling (Bolton West) (Lab)
I am grateful to have been called to speak in this debate. I declare an interest as a proud trade unionist and a proud deferred member of the local government pension scheme.
The pension dispute is just the tip of the iceberg of the devastating effect of the Government’s policies on the living standards of ordinary people. My surgery is full and my postbag is full of letters from people who are struggling because of Government policies, which make the poor pay for the devastation that irresponsible bankers wrought on the world.
People are losing their homes and jobs. They are terrified that they will lose their disability living allowance. They are struggling to pay their household bills and are very frightened. Things will only get worse for those ordinary people. Let me tell hon. Members what my constituents are telling me. Paul works in customer accounts for a local council. He tells me that he strongly objects to the pension proposals affecting him. He says that he has already lost £3,000 owing to the new pay and grading structure and will now have to pay 3% more for his pension and work longer. Like many thousands of others, he believes that he may well have to leave the pension scheme altogether.
Jeanette is another constituent who is deeply annoyed by the cuts to the local government pensions. She says:
“I really need to express my disgust at the treatment of Local Government employees, as the majority of us do work very hard and make a great contribution to local services and meeting national targets and budgets. I feel we are pawns in the political game and are easy targets, with propaganda being used to fuel the media misconception that we are lazy, workshy overpaid employees who have a cushy working life in comparison to the private sector.”
She went on to say that she felt that she was having her pension stolen from her.
It is no wonder that those constituents are so angry. Their pension scheme is a funded scheme: both employee and employer pay actual money into an actual fund. It takes in £4 billion a year more than it pays out and was changed just a few years ago to make it sustainable. Now the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government wants to rob the fund of £900 million—not to make it sustainable or to improve it, but to satisfy his need to make cuts, rather like the worst employers of the past who raided pension funds.
This illustrates the complexity of public sector pensions. There are six schemes, not one—all with different rules, accrual rates, retirement ages and benefits. Contribution rates range from 0% for the armed forces to 11% for the police. To speak of them as though they were one unaffordable public sector pension is misleading. The Government say that their proposals are an improvement, but they are not telling the whole truth. The average public sector worker will still end up with a pension of less than £6,000, will have to work a number of years longer, will have to pay 3% more and have their pension uprated by the consumer prices index rather than the retail prices index.
It is no wonder that public sector workers are angry, but they are also scared. Paula, a teacher of deaf children for 30 years, told me of her fears that her pension will lose its value because of its being uprated by the CPI. She said:
“I have little or no family, I live alone and if I were to fall into debt the fear of that keeps me awake at night. My lifestyle is already very frugal, I have no choice about that because of the price of gas, electricity and fuel. My pension puts limits on my lifestyle now. I dread to think of what will become of me in a few years’ time when my financial position has not kept pace with prices and that wakes me up at night constantly.”
Of course, there is much worse to come for the low paid: cuts to housing benefit and in-work benefit for a great many low paid workers—
Mr Speaker
Order. The Front-Bench winding-up speeches will begin at 6.40 pm. I call Pat Glass.
Pat Glass (North West Durham) (Lab)
Is it worth it? I will have to rely on bullet points.
I want to speak about the impact of the Government’s policies on children and young people—their educational chances, their life chances and their employment. In the past 19 months, we have seen a Government who have a massive gap between their stated political objectives and the main drivers put in place to meet them. We heard from the hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry), who said that she came into Parliament to eradicate child poverty, yet the Government are going to put 600,000 more children into child poverty. The hon. Member for Erewash (Jessica Lee) gave a notable speech, much of which I agreed with, about early intervention, yet the Government have massively cut funding to local government, which is going to deliver on that.
The Government tell us that they want to narrow the gap in outcomes between the poorest and the most advantaged in our schools, that they want more children from disadvantaged backgrounds to go to university and that they want to build skills for the future—but what do they do? They slash the education maintenance allowance. The number of young people going into further education this year has fallen—in one year—to levels last seen in 1990. That will not deliver a knowledge-based economy for us in the future. They triple tuition fees and tell us that £9,000 will not be the norm. Wake up—it is the norm, and as a result, this year applications for higher education fell by 12% nationally and by 15% from British students. The biggest drop has been in applications from young people in the most disadvantaged and poorest families.
That is what the Government are doing. What they say is one thing, but what they deliver is something completely different. It is not just that they are failing on the economy now; it is that they will not deliver on the skills we need to get us out of this mess in the future.
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
Today’s debate has been an extremely good one, with many Members contributing. It has been a very serious debate about the real consequences to families across the country of yesterday’s facts and figures and yesterday’s decisions. We are holding the debate on the day on which the Institute for Fiscal Studies said that Britain is facing the steepest drop in living standards for generations, and the day after the Chancellor told us that there will be a quarter of a million more people on the dole each and every year, that growth has collapsed and that borrowing is set to be an astonishing £158 billion higher. We know that it is hurting, but it is not working.
I will not mention every Member who spoke in the debate, because to do so would take me to the end of my time, but there are some things on which we agree. The hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) said that the best way to increase living standards is to increase growth. I agree, but the Government’s policies are choking off growth, not supporting it. The hon. Member for Poole (Mr Syms) made a thoughtful speech, and the hon. Member for Erewash (Jessica Lee) talked about the impact on children in care. The hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) took us to Planet Zog, I think, and even worse, the hon. Member for Aberconwy (Guto Bebb) wanted to take us back to Wales in the 1980s when, by my recollection, unemployment was considerably higher than it is today.
We heard serious speeches from my hon. Friend the Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce), who described discussions with women in her constituency who are really worried about the impact of Government policies, as well as the hon. Member for South Down (Ms Ritchie) and my hon. Friends the Members for Stoke-on-Trent South (Robert Flello), for Gateshead (Ian Mearns), for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth) and for or Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), who all talked about the devastating impact on communities, families and child poverty. My hon. Friend the Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley) and my right hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich and Woolwich (Mr Raynsford) talked about the impact on housing and jobs, and my right hon. Friend the Member for South Shields (David Miliband) made a powerful speech rebutting the claims, to which Government Members are clinging, that low interest rates are a sign of confidence on the international markets, instead of a reflection of decisions made by the Bank of England. As Japan’s experience for many years shows, they are a sign of weakness in the economy.
The Treasury analysis published yesterday of who is taking the strain of the Government’s plans is pretty gloomy. It shows that the impact of their plans next year alone is regressive across 80% of the population. It also shows an increase of 100,000 in the number of children in poverty, just as a result of the autumn statement. The IFS analysis published today, which takes account of far more measures, is far more damning, showing that the poorest 30% in society will lose more than three times as much as a share of their income as the richest 30%. In addition, an earlier analysis shows that 600,000 more families will fall into absolute poverty.
We remember what the Government said. The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions said today that he was protecting the poorest families. No, he is not, and the IFS figures make that clear. The Chancellor said, “We’re all in this together,” and the Deputy Prime Minister said his cuts would be progressive. Time and again, the facts show the opposite. Even today, the Prime Minister claimed that he was increasing child tax credit, providing more support for families. He said that he had increased child tax credit this year, but the truth is that this Government have cut tax credits for families, cut child benefit, cut Sure Start and cut the child care element, so some families are losing more than £1,000 in child care support alone.
As for the Government’s claim today that they will increase child tax credit by £135 next year, that is just inflation. They are not increasing the value of tax credits; in fact they are cutting them, and cutting child benefit too. A family on the minimum wage with two children will lose £320 a year as a result of yesterday’s decisions alone, and over £100 more as a result of the freezing of child benefit. That is the equivalent of about two weeks’ take-home pay. If the Prime Minister thinks that he can stand in the House of Commons and claim that he is increasing support for children, and imagines that parents will not notice what is actually happening to their pay packets and what they receive at the end of the month, he is simply out of touch with what is happening in communities across the country.
We understand that the Chancellor wanted to raise money for youth unemployment. It would have been better not to abolish the youth guarantee and the future jobs fund in the first place, it would have been better not to let long-term youth unemployment rise by more than 80% since the beginning of the year, and it would have been better to prevent youth unemployment from hitting the 1 million mark and start reducing it, as we did before the election. However, we do support extra action for youth jobs, and indeed we said that we would raise a bankers’ bonus tax in order to pay for it.
What was the Chancellor’s response to that? It was not “Oh yes, what a good idea, let us introduce a bankers’ bonus tax.” It was “No thanks, I think I will leave the bankers alone. In fact, I was planning to cut their 50p rate as soon as I could afford it. I have another wheeze: I want to take the money from families who are on the minimum wage.” That is what the Chancellor did yesterday. He has already taken £6 billion a year from support for children, and now he has gone back for over £1 billion more: £7.5 billion a year from children, and £2.8 billion from the banks. He is taking between two and three times as much from children as from the banks. That is the supposedly progressive decision that this out-of-touch Government have made.
What do the Government’s proposals mean for women? We know that the Government are already worried about their popularity among women, for the No. 10 memo tells us:
“We know from a range of polls that women are significantly more negative about the Government than men. We don't at present have a finer-grained analysis than this”.
It also says:
“the group of Cabinet Office and No 10 women we assembled felt strongly that the general tone and messages of government communications, particularly around deficit reduction were an issue - with women, especially in the public sector feeling targeted… we found the insights useful.”
We can imagine the Tory special advisers scouring the Cabinet Office and No. 10 for women who would tell them the obvious. It is not rocket science, and it should not take so much for them to find out what is the experience of women across the country.
The memo also says:
“we are clear that there are a range of policies… which are seen as having hit women, or their interests, disproportionately, including… Public sector pay and pensions…Tuition fees… Abolition of Child Trust Funds… Changes to child tax credit and the childcare element… Changes to child benefit… Rising cost of living… Lone patent obligations… Income support”.
Exactly. So what have the Prime Minister, the Chancellor and the Deputy Prime Minister done in response to that? They have simply gone back for more.
In the autumn statement, the Government are hitting women hardest again. We already knew of the £16 billion that they were raising in tax and benefit changes— £11 billion of it coming from women, even though women still earn less and own less than men. It is hurting but it is not working, so the Government think that they should just go back and make it hurt more. The Prime Minister can try as much as he likes with his new women’s spin doctor, the marginally greater chance that a woman will occupy the throne as a result of the succession changes, and some family-friendly photo opportunities, but that is all that he is offering, and it will not work. The Government are out of touch, and women throughout the country are aware of the damage that they are doing to their families and their lives.
The biggest problem, of course, is the impact on growth and jobs that is affecting women, families and everyone else in the country. An extra £29 billion on the benefits bill is not lifting people out of poverty, and is not helping people into work. It is the cost of failure: the choking off of recovery, more people on the dole, and the pushing up of inflation. We should be investing in growth and jobs, not borrowing to pay the bills of failure. This is hurting, not working, and it is time to change course.
The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Steve Webb)
I agree with the right hon. Member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford (Yvette Cooper) on one thing: this has been a worthwhile and important debate. We have had 31 contributions from across the House on the important issue of living standards. However, there is an omission in the motion. It refers to the impact of policies on living standards and to hard-working families, women and parents, but it does not mention pensioners at all. I wonder why. It is probably because the Labour party assumed that we were not going to keep our promise, but we did. We uprated the basic state pension by 5.2%—the biggest increase ever, at £5.30—and passed that money through to the poorest pensioners. We have done the right thing by pensioners; it is not surprising that Labour Members do not want to talk about it.
What are the key things that matter to our constituents about living standards? The first and most important is their mortgages. One in three households has a mortgage. We have the lowest mortgage rates on record and we have kept them that way.
The right hon. Member for South Shields (David Miliband) made a thoughtful contribution in which he reminded us why most of his colleagues wanted him as party leader and not his brother. He explained that he did not think the Government’s stance on the fiscal position had anything to do with interest rates, but does he accept that Britain’s credit rating has improved, almost uniquely, because we are taken seriously on tackling the debt? That is the crucial difference between this side and the Opposition.
The hon. Member for York Central (Hugh Bayley), if I can distract him from his BlackBerry, referred to the national debt and to Labour’s golden economic legacy. He forgot to point out, however, that the national debt—£750 billion in total the year before the election—was slated under his plans to double to £1.5 trillion. I may be old-fashioned, but with a trillion here and a trillion there, we are soon talking about serious money. That was the burden.
We have talked about our children, with some almost dismissing the idea that we as a society have lived beyond our means. For every £3 we raised in tax, we were spending £4. That simply could not go on.
Steve Webb
I am not giving way.
That could not go on, and it meant that our children will have to pick up the tab. Similarly, several hon. Members, including the hon. Member for Erith and Thamesmead (Teresa Pearce), have referred to public sector pensions. This is a classic case of asking our children to pick up the tab. For example, the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras (Frank Dobson) asked why we did not value the teachers’ pension scheme, as we might find that it was in credit. I have news for him: there is no scheme; there is no money. Today’s teachers pay for today’s retired teachers. There could not be a credit, because there is no fund. That is one of the problems with this whole debate. [Interruption.] There is no fund and no money; there is nothing invested. [Interruption.] If the right hon. Member for Holborn and St Pancras wants to intervene, I am happy for him to put on record what he is saying from a sedentary position. As a former Secretary of State for a major spending Department, if he does not understand that there is no cash in the teachers’ pension fund, I will be very pleased to take an intervention from him.
Frank Dobson
The Minister and the Secretary of State refer to creating jobs in the private sector to compensate for the ones that have been lost in the public sector. Can he confirm that neither his Department nor any other is checking on how many of the so-called new jobs in the private sector are simply ones transferred from the public sector?
Steve Webb
I can understand why the right hon. Gentleman did not want to deal with the issue that I raised. I can point out to him, however, that the total number of people in employment will rise from 29 million last year to 30 million in 2016 under the projections. There will be more people in employment, and a rebalancing towards a vibrant private sector, which we want to see.
As well as mortgages, Members on the Government side have talked about the council tax. Labour Members did not seem to want to talk about the council tax, as though it did not matter. The council tax is one of the most regressive taxes that we have. This Government froze it and will freeze it again. That is real help for hard-working families.
A number of hon. Members talked about fuel prices and petrol. It is this Government who cancelled the 3p rise in January. It is Labour that had the escalator, year after year, with above-inflation increases in petrol prices. Under our plans for duty, petrol prices will be 10p a litre less than under Labour’s plans.
Steve Webb
I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for intervening, because I asked him the question when he was speaking, and he said that he opposed cuts for people who are out of work and that he opposed cuts for people who are in work. When I asked him whom that left, he said nothing—he never answers the question—and his Back Benchers said, “The bankers”. He was in the Treasury when, before the general election, the Labour Government introduced a “temporary” bankers’ bonus tax. If Labour thought they were going to win the election, why did they not make the bankers’ bonus tax permanent? It was a one-off, pre-election gimmick, whereas this Government have introduced a banking levy that, every year, will raise more than his temporary banking tax raised in any year.
Steve Webb
I have four minutes to respond to more than 30 speeches. Out of deference to Labour Members, I will do so.
The shadow Home Secretary talked about the position of women, and it is important that we deal with that point. The difference between this Government and the Labour Government is that we are taking 1 million people out of tax, the majority of whom are women, whereas her Government abolished the 10p tax rate, from which the majority of the losers were women.
There has been much discussion of the gainers and losers from the Government’s policies. I refer the House to the chart on page 4 of the Treasury document, “Distributional analysis to accompany the Autumn Statement 2011”, which ranks households by expenditure and shows the smallest cash losses at the bottom and the biggest cash losses at the top—progressive changes in difficult times.
Steve Webb
My hon. Friend the Member for Bristol West (Stephen Williams) made a characteristically thoughtful contribution pointing out the contrast between the two parties’ records—the 75p pension rise and the abolition of the 10p tax rate under the previous Government, and the personal tax allowance increases that this party is bringing in.
Mr Speaker
Order. The House must come to order. It seems clear on observation that the Minister is not giving way.
Steve Webb
I am grateful, Mr Speaker.
The hon. Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke) spoke about how low interest rates benefit growth, which is crucial to the economy. The hon. Member for Broxtowe (Anna Soubry) raised the crucial issue of us having to pay our own way.
In opposition, one must do two things: yes, one must oppose the things that one is against, but one must also propose the things that one is in favour of. The Labour party failed to tell us where the £46 billion of spending cuts identified by the shadow Secretary of State for Work and Pensions would come from. We heard speech after speech from Labour Members who were opposed to every single cut, but I heard no Labour Member say what they would cut. We heard that there should not be cuts for people out of work, or for people in work, that there should not be cuts to the public sector, or to the private sector. Where does all the money come from? Answer came there none.
Ms Rosie Winterton (Doncaster Central) (Lab)
claimed to move the closure (Standing Order No. 36).
Question put forthwith, That the Question be now put.
Question agreed to.
Main Question put accordingly.
Business without Debate
Dalgety Bay (Radiation)
(13 years ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Mr Gordon Brown (Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
I have called this debate for one purpose and one purpose only: to persuade the Ministry of Defence of the need for urgent action in an area in my constituency where radioactive materials have been discovered.
The affected land on the shores of the Firth of Forth occupied by and near Dalgety Bay sailing club is a few yards from people’s homes, near where children play, and is an area where many go for walks. But in the past six weeks, materials that were dumped there by the Ministry of Defence in the 1950s—aircraft dials, aircraft paint and other materials—have been discovered, with radioactive levels that are 10 times anything witnessed before. They are an undeniable hazard, they are materials which children should not touch, and they are particles which should be removed quickly and in full.
Urgent action is necessary not just because of risks to safety, but because the Scottish Environment Protection Agency has now stated publicly that unless the Ministry of Defence brings forward a remedial plan for the area, the agency will designate Dalgety Bay a radioactive contaminated piece of land. This will be the first and only land to be designated as radioactive contaminated in the United Kingdom, and the agency says that it will nominate the Ministry of Defence as the culpable party.
Lindsay Roy (Glenrothes) (Lab)
Does my right hon. Friend agree that the Ministry of Defence abdicated its responsibility for the contaminated land when it unilaterally informed the local forum that it
“had no plans to continue monitoring and removing contamination from the site”?
Surely such irresponsible inaction deserves the strongest condemnation.
Mr Brown
That was in 2010. I shall come to that.
I have had to call this debate because, despite a succession of approaches to the Ministry of Defence—letters, phone calls, a chance conversation with the Secretary of State for Defence, whom I acquainted with the issue—the Ministry of Defence has yet to instruct the necessary actions and agree that a plan for remedial work is prepared, funded and implemented.
Since 1983 I have been the Member of Parliament representing the community of Dalgety Bay. It is near where I grew up and went to school, and near where I live and where my children go to school, so I have been aware for many years of the history of the site and of the past dumping of materials there by the Ministry of Defence. Those came from Donibristle airfield, which was created in 1917, was opened, closed and then opened again, and when reopened became, like the nearby Royal Navy base, vital to the second world war effort. Even as late as 1959, when it was announced that it would be closed down as an aircraft repair yard, it employed 1,400 industrial and non-industrial staff.
In that time, disused aircraft, including aircraft dials, materials used for painting dials and other instruments, were broken up and dumped at Dalgety Bay. On that land houses were built and the sailing club was established. Since 1990 materials with some radioactivity have been detected at Dalgety Bay. In June that year, after environmental monitoring by Babcock, the owners of Rosyth dockyard, elevated radiation levels including the presence of radium 226, were found. At that time particles were removed. As was reported later, they were removed “as far as possible”, but since 1990 and at regular intervals, I and the local community council, headed by Colin McPhail, have pressed for regular monitoring of any potential threat to the safety of local residents and to reassure locals that we have consistently asked for surveys to be done, tests to be carried out and investigations to be made.
Until 17 October this year, no investigation that I have seen has yielded evidence of substantial pollution or danger. In fact, at the request of local people, the National Radiological Protection Board—now the Health Protection Agency—carried out surveys during May and June 1991, as it monitored the beach, and then in 1992, 1993 and 1994. It reported that it found only low-level contaminated material buried below a layer of soil.
That was followed in 1995 by a detailed risk assessment, commissioned from a multidisciplinary research team at the university of Aberdeen. Its purpose was to assess the implications of radiation contamination, to consider the level of risk to the public and to review the options for reducing the contamination, if that were necessary. The study found that the variations in the ambient radiation dose rate values were within normal levels and calculated that the highest ambient dose rate found at Dalgety Bay was only two thirds of that found naturally in the granite in Aberdeen.
When the inquiry team published their survey in 1998, they reported that radium contamination was present not as a layer in the sediment, but randomly distributed as particles. However, they found that the number of radiation particles found in the area surveyed was very small and, thus, the risk of coming into contact with such a particle was “very low”. They found that the risk of inhalation was also low and reported that skin contact with a particle for an extended period could produce a very small burn similar in nature and severity to a fire-ash burn, but concluded that the maximum fatal risk per year from inhaling or swallowing a radioactive particle to any user of the area surveyed was negligible; it was calculated as clearly
“less than one in a million”.
However, we rightly agreed that we would continue monitoring, and in 2006 SEPA compiled a report that concluded that further work needed to be done. It also highlighted the possibility of coastal erosion that might bring particles nearer to the surface, but said:
“The most probable effect of an encounter which lasts for a number of minutes is a skin burn. The chances of ingestion…is highly unlikely, around one in half a million per year”.
The common view locally was that during the break-up of some aircraft some of the redundant luminescent materials had been burnt, and it was likely that the resultant ash and clinker produced from burning were either buried or spread on the ground surface. It was reported:
“It is therefore possible that the action of burning of luminised dials can produce a diverse range of chemical forms”.
Since then, at our request and at the request of others, six monitoring surveys and three intrusive investigations were carried out by Entec over the course of 12 months, and they have found that the radioactive materials probably derived from a bed of ash material. But, as was reported,
“recontamination of the beach continued, indicating that either the ash horizon was not the only potential host material, or that”—
other—
“sources continued to be present…and continued to re-contaminate the beach.”
Of the 128 particles, 48 were recovered from investigations of the ash bed, 28 from clearance surveys of the beach and coastal path, and 51 from regular visits to monitor the area. These surveys made it clear that
“the data do not indicate a reducing rate of hazard recurrence…at the site.”
I should add that, also after our request, work was also commissioned over these years by the health board, whose study of data from 1975 to 2002 did not reveal any correlation between the location of the radioactive materials and the incidence of cancer. So until a few weeks ago none of these surveys revealed any substantial risk or out-of-the-ordinary levels of radiation. Many of them were carried out at the expense of the MOD, because it rightly recognised that this monitoring was its responsibility. But in mid-October, work done by SEPA dramatically revealed particles at a level of radiation 10 times that of any previous discovery and led to the decision by SEPA, after repeated contact with the MOD, that it had to take action in the weekend of 17 to 19 November to remove potentially dangerous items. This was work that, as the correspondence makes clear to me, the MOD was willing to instruct. However, unfortunately, it would not guarantee that it would immediately remove any items discovered or submit them for full investigation.
So on Saturday 19 November, without the help of the MOD, SEPA took action and removed what it reported to be
“a second potentially high activity source”.
It was
“five times greater activity than anything previously recovered”.
SEPA also reported that a
“second source was also recovered”
and that
“a third source was found at the surface”
and that required urgent action.
So the real issue here is that there needs to be agreement on a plan for remedial action, given what we know now about the radioactive materials on the site. In October, SEPA wrote to the defence industrial office asking for assistance in monitoring and for a plan of action to repair the site. On 10 November—I quote from its letter—the MOD said, astonishingly, that
“any suggestions that the Ministry should provide a plan of action is immature at this stage”.
On 24 November, SEPA again wrote to the MOD asking for a commitment to undertake appropriate remediation and
“the delivery of a plan”
with
“sufficient resources and funds to enable work to be undertaken”.
However, at the most recent meeting with the Dalgety Bay officials, the MOD was
“unable to commit to undertaking any remediation following site investigation”.
That has caused SEPA to say that unless there is a plan—not just agreed in principle but produced by the MOD—it will, in March next year, designate the site as contaminated and name the MOD as the responsible party
Thomas Docherty (Dunfermline and West Fife) (Lab)
My right hon. Friend is to be congratulated not only on securing this debate but on the dogged way that he has pursued this issue over a number of years. He will know that the beach is incredibly popular with his constituents and with mine. Does he agree that it is absolutely vital that the Ministry of Defence deals with this quickly so that our constituents can continue to enjoy this beauty spot?
Mr Brown
Yes.
We now have clear evidence that there is a radioactivity level higher than anything that has been seen before. We have a desire—indeed, a demand—locally for remedial action. The community council chairman, Colin McPhail, has said very eloquently that fears in the area need to be allayed. We have correspondence, which I have seen, between the two Government agencies, but it has failed to resolve the issues despite the urgency of the need for action. It is therefore necessary that I bring this matter to the House so that we can secure agreement on preparing and financing a remediation plan for the site.
Over the years, the MOD has funded work, including the removal of radioactive contamination from homes in the area, but the result of its work on those homes has never been disclosed. It has funded the permanent erection of signs to provide warning information to the public, but those signs now require updating. In 2009, the MOD undertook an investigation of the slipway area which recovered 100 sources of radium. The MOD analysed whether the inter-tidal area was itself the source of the contamination, but found that not to be the case. The MOD has agreed to fund three annual surveys and removal programmes at Dalgety Bay. However, SEPA believes that it has detected caches of contamination that MOD contractors may have missed. Through the re-monitoring that SEPA has done, significantly more sources of radioactivity have been found, and while the MOD contractor removed 33 sources, SEPA has removed 442 separate particles. Together with this large number of sources, the SEPA investigation has recovered four high-activity sources from the inter-tidal area of Dalgety Bay, and those are, at the highest levels, 76 times greater than anything previously reported. In the light of recent findings, SEPA now considers that any survey and removal at Dalgety Bay that was previously agreed is not enough. It believes that joint work is now required with the Health Protection Agency and that an urgent plan is required to repair the site.
The community that lives in Dalgety Bay and in the vicinity of Rosyth dockyard is a loyal and patriotic community whose patience and good will has been sorely tested. At one time, Rosyth dockyard and naval base employed 15,000 people and was the base for thousands of servicemen and women. Churchill rightly described Rosyth as the greatest defended war harbour in the world. Today, it is home to 1,500 workers who are building the new aircraft carriers, but the naval base that has been so important to the local economy has gone. The current proposal for Rosyth is that nuclear decommissioning work be done on nuclear submarines that are currently stored there. Ironically, at the very moment when the MOD is trying to persuade local people that their fears about any radiation from that nuclear source should be non-existent, it seems to be utterly slow to act on the removal of the other source of radioactivity, which is its responsibility. This is no way to treat loyal supporters of our armed forces and people who, having refitted the Polaris submarines at Rosyth, have lived with nuclear dangers for years.
It seems very strange that this country has been home to nuclear-powered and nuclear weapons submarines, nuclear power stations and experimental nuclear work at Dounreay, and yet we face the prospect, because of the inactivity of the MOD, that a small piece of land occupied mainly by a sailing club will carry the title of the only officially registered area of radiation contaminated land in the United Kingdom.
The damage to the area, the loss to the community, the disruption to local people, the reduction in property values, the loss of a public space where children can play and young people can sail are totally avoidable. That can be avoided by decisions of the MOD that should be announced today. I ask in this debate for a recognition of the Ministry’s responsibility to agree to develop and to fund a remedial action plan to clear up the Dalgety Bay site. The community council, among others, is right to demand nothing less, and, on behalf of the community I make their demands directly to the Minister this evening. I expect not only a full and comprehensive response but a decision to be announced this evening that the action that is necessary to draw up a remedial plan to clear the site at Dalgety Bay will be instructed by the Ministry of Defence immediately.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Defence (Mr Andrew Robathan)
It is a pleasure to see the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) in his place and I congratulate him on securing this important debate. All those involved understand that there is a serious issue at Dalgety Bay. The Ministry of Defence, the Scottish Environment Protection Agency and other stakeholders who comprise the Dalgety Bay Forum all recognise that there is an issue.
I do not entirely recognise the portrayal of the situation given by the right hon. Gentleman. Since the early 1990s, we have been aware that radioactive material was being washed up on the foreshore and found on land, as he said. This material takes the form of fragments from navigational instruments and dials coated with luminescent paint with radium 226. The flakes of such paint are radioactive. We have worked with SEPA and the Dalgety Bay Forum for many years, certainly between 2007 and 2010, to understand the risk and the requirement for remedial measures. Such measures should be proportionate, sustainable and cost-effective.
We also agree that removal of radioactive sources by MOD and SEPA has reduced any hazard posed to the local population. Notwithstanding the fact that the issues have been around for some time, the general consensus has been that risks were low, as the right hon. Gentleman admitted. We took this approach because it was consistent with the advice of the Health Protection Agency, which he mentioned. Until recently, SEPA publicly acknowledged the MOD’s contribution to finding a credible solution. However, following preliminary testing earlier this month, SEPA disclosed that it has discovered higher levels of radiation than in previous tests. Naturally, this has caused a certain amount of concern among his constituents and he is right to raise that.
Given the recent finds, we agreed only last week to work with SEPA over the next four weeks to identify a programme of work that will inform the scope of any long-term credible remediation and management measures. This work will also look at interim management measures and we will continue with our existing monitoring programme. Indeed, the first meeting between the MOD and SEPA to establish a credible investigation plan occurred yesterday, which is further evidence of how seriously we take this issue.
Previously, we have acted voluntarily and discreetly to investigate and remediate radium 226 contamination affecting residential properties that have been built on the site of the former Royal Naval Air Station Donibristle. This measured approach was welcomed by the residents as our action avoided unnecessary blight, anxiety and stress. The MOD also took forward the recommendations of the Committee on Medical Aspects of Radiation in the Environment. We remain concerned that any designation of the area because of the contamination would be not only premature but disproportionate and certainly not in the interests of residents.
I must also make it clear that the location from which the artefacts and radioactive material are currently emanating has yet to be conclusively established. We are concerned that recent attempts to attract national media attention to this issue will have the opposite effect to the one intended on the local community.
To put the situation in context, the beach and the foreshore at Dalgety Bay lie adjacent to the former Royal Naval Air Station Donibristle. Our records show that Donibristle was first used by the Royal Flying Corps in early 1917. The RNAS took over in August that year, and from 1 April 1918, when the RNAS and the RFC were amalgamated, the site came under Royal Air Force control. It was put on a care and maintenance basis in 1921, and the airfield was reopened as an air station in 1925, when it was used as a shore base to disembark carrier aircraft and as a training base. Donibristle was a torpedo training school from 1934.
With the onset of world war two, the grass strip airfield came into royal naval use once more, and RNAS Donibristle was commissioned as HMS Merlin, eventually becoming an aircraft repair yard. By 1941 the yard was processing some 320 aircraft a year. A second runway was completed in early 1944, when the station had the capacity to accommodate 220 aircraft and was, therefore, pretty busy. Some 1,000 military personnel and 2,000 civilians were employed on site, and by the end of the war the total number of aircraft repaired and inspected reached more than 7,000. After the war, the site flew the flag of Flag Officer Carrier Training. In 1953, HMS Merlin was paid off, but repair and reconditioning work continued for the Fleet Air Arm.
The yard and airfield are recorded as having closed in August 1959, but there were royal naval barracks at Donibristle between 1962 and 1963. The land was subsequently sold, and some time later—in other words, well after the MOD had gone—it was developed for housing and industrial use, including the Donibristle industrial park.
We all recognise that “radioactivity” and the fact of contamination will give cause for concern, so it makes sense to ask how serious and real the risks are at Dalgety Bay. I am aware that there has been criticism of the manner in which the risk has been presented in the media. SEPA has recently found higher activity sourced at some depth—about 75cm, or 2 feet for those who deal in old-fashioned measurements—beneath the foreshore. MOD experts advise that that does not necessarily imply a step change in the risk to human health, or the need for additional mitigation measures over and above what SEPA has already put in place.
Indeed, as I have said, the Health Protection Agency has and continues to hold the view, despite the recent finds, that the risk is likely to be low—a view that SEPA has hitherto shared. Nevertheless, given the recent finds of relatively high activity, the HPA quite understandably feels it important that the risk be adequately quantified and understood, taking into account the likelihood of exposure. I therefore welcome, as I hope the House will, SEPA’s establishment of an expert group, which is charged with doing exactly that. My officials are observers to the group and stand ready to assist as required. That leads me to the calls for the MOD to develop a “credible remediation plan”.
We need to understand how the contamination at different locations is being caused. Is it, for instance, from erosion of the former refuse tip within the headland, or is it from other sources? Interestingly, the refuse tip is not documented in the 1959 contract of sale, and it is recorded only subsequently in the 1960s, on maps and so on. It is equally important to understand how radioactive sources found at depth in the foreshore have come to be there, the plausibility of their exposure by a storm event, and the impact on public health if that occurs.
The removal of what is known has ensured public safety in the short term, but an effective solution depends on assessing what might still be present and the risks from it. Moreover, what precisely would comprise an effective solution, given the current uncertainties? The answers to such questions are necessary in order to inform appropriate remediation measures. For those reasons, the MOD has offered to assist SEPA further. We are engaged with SEPA, working in consultation with it to develop and deliver the investigation necessary to help answer those important and relevant questions.
Of course, responsibility for such investigation would normally fall within SEPA’s statutory mandate for which it is funded, but I recognise that any delay would not be in the interests of residents. Moreover, my Department has disposed of material for them, so we are continuing with our voluntary assistance, which includes arranging for the disposal of material found by SEPA.
Mr Gordon Brown
The issue comes down to this: even after the letters from the Ministry of Defence and the meeting yesterday, the Scottish Environment Protection Agency still says that, unless the Ministry of Defence can give assurances, it will designate the land as radioactive and contaminated, which is not something people want. It seems strange that the Ministry of Defence was prepared to accept responsibility for monitoring when there was no problem, but now is not prepared to accept full responsibility for remedial action. I simply ask the Minister to give a straightforward assurance that the necessary remedial action will be taken and funded by the Ministry of Defence. I think we should ask for nothing less and that he is in a position to give that assurance.
Mr Robathan
I think that the right hon. Gentleman would agree that the important thing is to know what the dangers are before getting into a great state about it, because I am afraid that there is some conflict and disagreement on this. We are engaged with SEPA on the matter, and I think that it is important that we remain engaged.
Mr Brown
The Ministry of Defence has been told by the Scottish Environment Protection Agency that a remedial action plan is needed. It has the power to designate the land and require the Ministry of Defence to do this. It will not change its mind about whether a remedial action plan is needed, and nor should it because of what we have found in the past few weeks. All we need is an assurance from the Ministry of Defence that it will not only produce the remedial action plan with the Scottish Environment Protection Agency, but properly fund it. The Minister is in a position to give that assurance, based on everything else the Ministry of Defence has said and done in the past, and should do so now to allay the fears of local residents.
Mr Robathan
The right hon. Gentleman tells me that I am in a position to do this, but for a long time he was in a position to take further action should he have so wished. I am afraid that that is the case. Contrary to some media reports, I do not believe that it can reasonably be said that the MOD is being complacent or unhelpful. On the contrary, we have assisted and will continue to assist SEPA by undertaking surveys and disposing of recovered sources. We have remedied land-based contamination in residential areas within the former RNAS Donibristle site. We have also funded the warning signs and play an active part with the Dalgety Bay Forum. All in all, we have already spent £750,000 on land remediation signage and surveys and on assisting SEPA in other ways. Without further investigation, it is difficult to justify using taxpayers’ money to remediate while the current source, level of risk and remediation necessary remain unclear. That is why, in addition to the three-year monitoring and collection work we are already doing in conjunction with SEPA, we have agreed to undertake further investigative work. As I said earlier, we understand that the work we have done was seen, until recently, as entirely satisfactory by SEPA.
Mr Brown
The work is not seen as satisfactory by the Scottish Environment Protection Agency. I talked with head of the agency this afternoon, who assured me that he has had no assurances from the Ministry of Defence that it will do what the Scottish Environment Protection Agency needs. To return to the central point, the Ministry of Defence was prepared to accept responsibility for the site when there was no real problem, but now that we have a problem it should, in order to allay local people’s fears, say that it will fund the necessary remedial action plan. It is not in a position to say whether that action is needed. In law, that is a matter for SEPA, which the Minister seems to misunderstand. The question is will the MOD, having designated the site as an area of difficulty, honour the responsibility to fund the remedial action plan? It is a simple question and we need a simple answer.
Mr Robathan
I can see the characteristic passion and vigour with which the right hon. Gentleman has put his case. There is more to this than media reports in Kirkcaldy, or wherever it may be, suggest. The Health Protection Agency has a role to play. He shakes his head, but the Health Protection Agency has a role to play in this. He is of course right and entitled to represent the concerns of residents, but I do not think that we should get this out of proportion. We continue to believe that the risk to health remains low and that precipitate action is in no one’s interest. I can assure him and his constituents that the MOD will continue to work in a credible and responsible way with all concerned at Dalgety Bay.
Finally, may I say what a pleasure it has been to discover how many Members of the House are as interested as I am in the concerns of the people of Dalgety Bay?
Question put and agreed to.
Westminster Hall
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Organ Donation
(13 years ago)
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Westminster Hall is an alternative Chamber for MPs to hold debates, named after the adjoining Westminster Hall.
Each debate is chaired by an MP from the Panel of Chairs, rather than the Speaker or Deputy Speaker. A Government Minister will give the final speech, and no votes may be called on the debate topic.
This information is provided by Parallel Parliament and does not comprise part of the offical record
Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire) (Con)
This is the first time I have served under your chairmanship, Mr Crausby, and it is a pleasure to do so.
I have several brief comments to make before I start on the substance of my speech. First, I must declare an interest, although not a pecuniary one. I am a member of the Kidney Wales Foundation and it is important that I make that clear at the start. I have been interested in this subject for many years because a very dear friend of mine was one of the first to receive a heart and lung transplant at Papworth. She died about two months ago, but for 20 years we discussed the subject on a monthly basis. We did not agree, but our discussions inspired my interest in transplantation as a whole. In particular, we worked on local dialysis provision in Montgomeryshire.
I thought very carefully about becoming involved in a high-profile way because most of my friends and colleagues in the Kidney Wales Foundation take a different view from me. I am not in favour of presumed consent, whereas nearly all of them are. In my view, the way forward is to ensure that everyone knows about the issue so that people’s views are known when they die. Having a public debate is in itself a very good thing to help to achieve the objectives I want.
I think we all agree about the need to increase the availability of organ donors—those who are in favour of presumed consent and those who want to retain the informed consent system. The difference is that I do not believe that presumed consent will deliver an increase in organs for transplant. The evidence tells me that it makes no difference. The reason I sought this debate is that the Government in Wales have proposed to opt for presumed consent, which would inevitably have an impact on the rest of the United Kingdom and makes this a very proper debate for this Chamber.
I must make it clear that my opposition to presumed consent has nothing to do with ethics or morality, though I believe that there is a strong ethical case for opposition to it. Others, including the Archbishop of Wales, have articulated the ethical arguments much better than I can. It cannot be right to interpret the absence of an objection as a considered declaration of support. They cannot be seen as the same thing. Changing the system from an act of giving by the citizen to an act of taking by the state is a genuine ethical consideration, but my opposition to presumed consent is based not on ethics but on efficacy. There is simply no firm evidence that it will deliver any more organs for transplant.
In the final years of the previous Labour Government, the then Prime Minister, the right hon. Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown), began advocating presumed consent, as some hon. Members here may remember. He established a Department of Health organ donation taskforce. I believe that the chief medical officer at the time also supported a change to presumed consent. The taskforce was instructed to examine presumed consent in detail and to provide a report for the Government. The taskforce consisted of a large committee of specialists under the chairmanship of Dame Elisabeth Buggins, with several sub-committees to consider particular issues. Its report, published in 2008, made it absolutely clear that presumed consent was unlikely to increase organ donation rates in the UK and risked diverting substantial resources—it would cost £45 million to establish and several million pounds a year thereafter—from effective solutions. The report is the most comprehensive analysis of presumed consent ever carried out. It runs to several hundred pages.
Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con)
I have a copy of the Buggins report here. Did my hon. Friend take from his reading of it the fact that at the beginning of the process many of the people who were part of the taskforce were strongly in favour of presumed consent, and it was as a result of the detailed work undertaken that their viewpoint came to be changed? That was a crucial part of what emerged from the report and is highlighted in the conclusions.
Glyn Davies
My hon. Friend makes a good point. Because of the brief that the British Medical Association has circulated to Members, I want to quote the report’s conclusions so that we know what the taskforce actually said. One of the main recommendations states:
“The Taskforce’s members came to this review of presumed consent with an open mind, with many sympathetic”
to presumed consent. It went on:
“the more the Taskforce examined the evidence, the less obvious the benefit, and the more multifaceted and multidimensional the issue of increasing donor numbers was revealed to be…The Taskforce reached a clear consensus…that an opt out system should not be introduced”
as it could impact negatively on organ donation.
I was quite shocked to receive the BMA parliamentary brief because it sets out without the slightest doubt to give the impression that the taskforce recommended the opposite of what it did recommend. That is verging on a lack of professionalism. I have huge respect for the BMA and I was very disappointed to receive its parliamentary brief. It will seriously damage my confidence in such briefs in the future, whereas I depended on them in the past.
Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab)
When someone dies it can be very difficult for doctors to talk about organ donation at that time. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that what we need is a huge drive to get families to talk about consent well in advance? We must be honest and acknowledge that organs that are fresh from healthy bodies are the most desired, and it is often the tragic deaths that lead to organ donation. We need to get as many people as possible signed up, other than those with strong religious objections. If people are signed up, doctors can have an informed discussion with them.
Glyn Davies
I absolutely agree, but I do not necessarily agree with having a list identifying people. I hope to cover that point. Having people’s views identified outside the traumatic circumstances that surround a death is absolutely key if we are to increase the number of organ donations in this country. That is what the evidence in other countries tells us.
When the taskforce was set up, the Prime Minister of the day expected it to support a transplant revolution, but of course it did not. A similar conclusion was arrived at by a cross-party group of Assembly Members who looked at the same issue. The Members I talked to went into that committee expecting to support presumed consent, but they said in the Assembly that it should not be presumed. They did not think it would deliver the increase in organ donation levels that was generally anticipated.
The second report of the organ donation taskforce in 20008 recommended an improvement in transplant co-ordination, and that is being implemented. The number of organ donors in the UK has risen from just over 800 in 2008 to more than 1,000 last year. That is an extraordinary and dramatic improvement that has saved hundreds of lives. I have searched pretty hard, and the evidence I found is that the way forward is to look at the problem logically and in depth, conduct serious research and then take well-considered action.
Many people support presumed consent because they intuitively feel that it must make a difference. Opinion polls show support, and it is not surprising that they do. When people are going around saying that the change to presumed consent will increase the number of organs available, others will automatically say that they are in favour, but the reality is not what they think. There is a misconception that, if a citizen does not put their name on a centralised, opt-out register, their organs can be used for transplantation. This is a half-consent system, and it is not the presumed consent system that is being proposed. With soft opt-out, or presumed consent with safeguards—these are the phrases used—the actual decision to donate still rests with potential donor’s family, as happens under the current system. The key issue—the point raised earlier by my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Mr Evans)—is that the donor’s wishes are known by his or her next of kin.
It is always dangerous to draw conclusions from international examples but, for many years, Spain was presented by those who support presumed consent as proof of the effectiveness of that system. Since the late 1980s, Spain has had the best rate of organ donation in the world and has rightly been recognised as a model for other countries. Because Spain legalised presumed consent in 1979, it has been assumed that this played a key part in its success. However, the 1979 legislation to introduce presumed consent had no impact whatsoever on Spanish donation rates. Key organisational changes introduced 10 years later, in 1989, delivered the success of which Spain is so rightly proud. Spain does not have, and has never had, an opt-out register.
The director of the Spanish organ donation body, Dr Rafael Matesanz, has said that the 1979 legislation is dormant and plays no role in Spain’s outstanding organ donation rates, but this fact does not deter the supporters of presumed consent. They now ignore Spain, citing cultural differences to explain why Spain is not a good example to follow. They also ignore the fact that the United States has one of the best organ donation rates in the world, despite there being no presumed consent there. In fact, civil liberties issues in the States would almost certainly prevent presumed consent being introduced there.
The focus now has moved to Belgium and to studies performed in Belgium 25 years ago, between 1984 and 1987. I tried to discover what happened, because I want to see more organs donated. If a system works, and there is evidence to show that it works, it is important that we study to such examples, so I have gone to a lot of trouble to find out what happened in Belgium.
Belgium introduced presumed consent legislation in 1986. The key result was that the rate of kidney transplantation in Belgium rose from 200 per annum in 1984-85 to 300 per annum in 1987. Again, under more detailed examination, the claim that this is the consequence of presumed consent just does not stand up to scrutiny. The results of these studies were published, as a page and a half meeting report, in 1990, by L Roels and co-workers, Transplantation Proceedings, volume 22, pages 2078 to 2079. The authors state clearly that the presumed consent legislation
“was consolidated by a nationwide information campaign about the benefits of organ donation…and is being maintained by continuous efforts to inform healthcare professionals about the modalities of organ procurement procedures.”
More importantly—crucially—the authors go on to say:
“Whereas before 1986 most smaller non-university hospitals were reluctant to participate in organ donation activities, by lack of any legal security in the absences of an adequate legislation. The majority of organs harvested” —
I do not like that word; I prefer “donated” —
“during the last 3 years were performed in this particular group of hospitals.”
Presumed consent was clearly a major factor in increasing organ donation in Belgium in the 1980s, but it is irrelevant to the current position in the UK because the legal certainties have never been an issue. It may have had some influence in Belgium but it is clear that Belgium is a very weak example of evidence on which to base a major change in UK policy.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
As I understand his argument, the hon. Gentlemen is saying that in other countries other measures have worked to increase the level of donation, but he also seemed to be arguing that presumed consent would make matters worse, and reduce the number of organs donated. Can he explain how that mechanism would work?
Glyn Davies
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention, because I would not want there to be a misunderstanding. I gave a direct quote from the organ donation taskforce set up by the previous Government, which said that there was no evidence of an increase, and indeed some danger that there might be a negative effect. I used that quote as a challenge to those who are suggesting that the taskforce report shows positive support. I did not suggest that presumed consent will decrease the level of donation.
Susan Elan Jones (Clwyd South) (Lab)
It strikes me that the hon. Gentleman is saying that we have a choice – either presumed consent and no awareness-raising, or awareness-raising in the hope that that will generate more organ donation. From our nation of Wales, in the UK, we know that one person a week dies because they cannot have a transplant. I was on the Welsh radio programme “Dau o’r Bae” recently when one of the hon. Gentleman’s colleagues, the Rev. Felix Aubel, was adamantly in favour of presumed consent, and felt that there were very few ethical considerations against. There is quite a diversity of views, but I would contend that there is not the polarity that the hon. Gentleman suggests.
Glyn Davies
I thank the hon. Lady for her contribution, but I have not thought of this as being in any way a political issue. I know that there will be members of my party who will take a different view. For me, this is an issue purely outside party politics.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
Of the people who died last year waiting for organs, 50 died in Wales, and the evidence from the world experience is that the system being proposed by the Welsh Assembly will reduce that number of deaths. The hon. Gentleman has produced nothing to suggest that that is not the case.
Glyn Davies
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his intervention, but I simply do not accept that. The evidence actually shows the opposite of what he has just said, and he is ignoring that evidence. This is an issue of such importance to me—probably the most important issue to me since I have been a Member of Parliament—that I have looked carefully at the evidence. I do not want to be advocating a course of action that in some way negates that evidence, and I do not think that that is what I have been doing.
Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)
The hon. Gentlemen has been very careful. He has cited the experience of Belgium and Spain. Would he also cite the experience of the survey held by the Kidney Wales Foundation, looking at 22 different countries, comparing the rates of donation and concluding that presumed consent would increase the rate of donation by up to 30%?
Glyn Davies
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that intervention. I referred to Spain because that is the example that all those who seek presumed consent have quoted for many years. I then referred to Belgium because when it was shown that the evidence from Spain did not support that argument, the example then used was Belgium. If there is evidence from 22 more countries, then I will have to see the results from them as well. I just do not accept that the international evidence supports the move to presumed consent at all.
Jonathan Evans
I would like to explore this issue for slightly longer. The evidence indicates that what is important is the awareness, not the presumed consent. The Minister, on a point that I hope to raise with her later, wrote to me to indicate that awareness-raising, from just undertaking the taskforce report, has resulted in donation rates increasing by 28% over the last three years. Nobody could say that that is because of the system – it is because of communication and information.
Glyn Davies
I am hoping to come to this issue if I have time at the end of my speech. It is a crucial issue. I value the help that the British Medical Association has given me over the years. However, the Parliamentary brief from the BMA, which I referred to before, shocked me a bit; so I have gone to some trouble to understand its position. The BMA agrees with the move to presumed consent, and has done for many years. The position of the BMA is of great interest. It has been a vocal supporter of presumed consent since it adopted the policy in 1998, long before the report of the organ donation taskforce, which was a comprehensive study into the issue.
The BMA’s current position was overwhelmingly endorsed a few months ago at its annual representatives meeting, a very important meeting which was held in Cardiff and attended by hundreds of doctors representing regional groups throughout the United Kingdom and some special interest groups. Many dozens of motions were discussed over three days and votes are taken. A vote of 51% of those in the hall makes what is being discussed policy for the BMA. It seems scarcely credible that an important organisation can make policy on a complex issue in this way—as a sort of public speaking competition, rather than on the basis of detailed research. I do not accept that the BMA’s position on presumed consent can be treated seriously until it reforms the way it makes policy on complex issues. Given the influence of the BMA on public opinion, and that patients’ lives are at stake, there is a powerful moral obligation for it to undertake substantial research into this position before it continues to carry forward an issue that in my view damages the cause that it purportedly supports.
What is the way forward for patients who are at the heart of the debate? I want to come to the positive way forward. We know that the rate of organ donation is influenced by three crucial factors. The first is the number of potential donors. With rare exceptions, potential donors are comatose patients on life support machines in intensive care units. Inevitably, the level of intensive care provision is a crucial aspect of organ donation, and it is relatively poor in the United Kingdom.
That is one factor. Identification of all potential donors is another. Every patient who is a potential donor should be given the opportunity to become a donor, by early identification and discussion with his or her family. The Spanish have an extensive system of transplant co-ordinators, involving mainly part-time intensive care physicians. There is a lesson there for the UK.
Consent from the patient’s family is also key. This is influenced by background knowledge of transplantation and organ donation; the professionalism of timing, as to when we approach the family; trust in the medical profession and knowledge of their loved one’s wishes. Spain has a national training programme for its co-ordinators and a 24-hour information helpline open to the press and public, and places a high priority on public relations.
Consent cannot be legislated for. In 1990, the refusal rates in the UK and in Spain were the same, at about 40%. Over the last 20 years, the refusal rate in the UK has stayed roughly the same. In Spain, it has fallen gradually to the current level of 15%. There is a dramatic difference in what has happened in Spain, as a result of the systems outside presumed consent. That is the example that we should be following.
The second report of the organ donation taskforce recommended improvement in transplant co-ordination, which is being implemented. This is where the numbers I referred to earlier become apparent: the huge 25% rise in the UK and the 60% rise in Wales. It is a fantastic achievement. This is the approach we should be taking forward, which leads me to the final part of my speech this morning.
Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)
Does the hon. Gentleman agree that there is a particular problem with organ donation in black and minority ethnic communities? What does he think we ought to do, if we are not aiming for a soft opt-out, to raise the profile of organ donation to tackle health inequalities in these communities?
Glyn Davies
The figures that I have seen show that the refusal rate in those communities is much higher in Britain. The rate of allowing organs to be donated by the next of kin is actually reducing among the non-BME population in Britain. So there is a lot of work. I do not know the answer to that. I do not want to make suggestions that I have not researched. I am trying to stick to the research, and I have not done research into that, although it is clearly an issue. It was a specific part of a debate here about two months ago and it is an issue we must tackle.
Finally, those of us who disagree with the proposals being put forward by the Welsh Government and advocated by my friends at Kidney Wales Foundation and the BMA have a responsibility to engage seriously with what is a genuine attempt to increase the availability of organs for transplant. It is a worthy objective. It is accompanied by a commitment to invest considerable sums of public money to achieve it. It has led to a lot of debate already, particularly in Wales, to this debate today, and will lead to much more. Many hon. Members are interested in the debate. If Wales and the Welsh Government seek to introduce the legislation, there will be huge debate across the UK. The debate itself is hugely helpful.
The final point I want to make this morning is that we should build on what is so obviously working. There is currently a national transplant week and a national donor day. However, these do not impinge as much on the national consciousness as we would like them to in the UK. I admit that I did not know that they occurred. If part of the extensive resources which would be used to implement the presumed consent legislation were to be used to create a national donor and transplantation day in Wales, what a difference that could make. It could have real impact. The resources could be used to celebrate the donors and their families of the preceding year on television, radio and the newspapers. The success stories of the recipients of new organs who are living a full life would be inspirational as examples and would help discussion about this issue, so that next of kin would know what their families’ wishes were.
Nia Griffith
Would the hon. Gentleman consider the advantages of trying to have specific points in people’s lives when they are asked about organ donation, such as when they get their driving licence or their national insurance number, or something like that, so that there is a methodical way of asking people to sign up?
Glyn Davies
I thank the hon. Lady for raising the point. That is not directly related to the debate today, but the point raised would support and strengthen the current system of an opt-in card, and it is a good idea. I have thought about it a lot and most people would accept that that is a reasonable way forward. It asks people their opinion and requires them to think about the issue. As long as we can extend that—having them tell their next of kin what their position is—it could be very successful.
We could learn from what has happened in Spain: Spain is the most successful country in the world. We also could establish a 24-hour information telephone line, with many more lines available on the national organ donor and transplantation day, if it were set up. On that day the people of Wales could be encouraged at every opportunity to tell their loved ones and their next of kin what their wishes are regarding organ donation. Husbands, wives and children will always be asked their permission. If you are ever unfortunate enough to be a potential donor, you need to have your next of kin know your wishes, so that they will be implemented. Telling them your wishes is much simpler, hugely cheaper, more effective and far more flexible than presumed consent legislation. Establishing a national database is expensive; overseas experience suggests that only 1% or perhaps 2% of the population are likely to use it. We know that it is more probably some 10% of people who do not want their organs to be donated; those are the figures we get—that about 90% of people are content.
This is a poor substitute. We all need more organs available for transplant. There is no dispute about that—it is a worthy objective that nearly everybody signs up to. Building on the success that we are achieving, involvement in a transplant co-ordination system is the way to go. Building on the evidence and on our experience, we know that that is what works; not creating a bureaucratic, superficially attractive, presumed consent system that simply will not deliver what we all want.
Mr David Crausby (in the Chair)
As so many Members wish to speak, I will call the two Front Benchers at 10.40 am, giving them 10 minutes apiece, but I would appreciate short contributions in order to get as many people in as possible.
Paul Flynn (Newport West) (Lab)
This debate reinforces the view that Assembly Members never actually leave the Assembly, but continue their debates here in Westminster. This morning’s debate is not for us. The Government have 400 commitments in the coalition agreement; if they have 401 commitments then there is even less chance that they will deliver on this. There is no likelihood of change.
Glyn Davies
I reassure the hon. Member that this issue was never raised during the eight years I served as a member of the Welsh Assembly.
Paul Flynn
It is now a live issue in the Assembly. We are not the Assembly, we are a British Parliament, and I question whether this is an issue of primary concern. Of course we should talk about it, but sadly any possibility of reform is remote in this Parliament, although it is a live issue in Wales. This debate has been called in order to influence the debate in Wales and it is questionable whether it is a legitimate use of parliamentary time.
Guto Bebb (Aberconwy) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) on securing this debate. On whether this is an issue to be debated in Westminster or in the Welsh Assembly, is the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) implying that no contribution to the debate can be made in a Westminster context? There is a real question mark as to whether the Assembly has the legislative competence to deal with the issue.
Paul Flynn
I served in Parliament before there was a Welsh Assembly, unlike the two hon. Gentlemen. Since it has come into being I have absolutely never, at any time, become involved with, made speeches on, or interfered in those responsibilities of education and health in Wales, which are the responsibility of the Welsh Assembly. We have to accept that and realise that there are Welsh Assembly responsibilities and other responsibilities here. I do not want to labour that point, however, because there is a more important point to be made—
Paul Flynn
No, I will not. I have been asked to be brief. We must get away from what we are hearing from prattling prelates and procrastinating politicians and look at the real issue. We cannot talk about a system that is working well, as was suggested this morning, when 1,000 families were bereaved last year in the UK and 50 families were bereaved in Wales. I will not talk about one family in my constituency where a young woman died waiting for an organ transplant because it is too heartbreaking a story, but I want to say something about the reality. Despite all the fine theories and words ahead, what is happening to real people in our constituencies?
Some of us listened to the testimony of Matthew Lomas and his mother when they came to Parliament a month ago. It was a dreadful story of suffering that moved us all. Matthew and his brother were born with congenital heart defects and they both had pacemakers. Matthew was suddenly getting a great deal of pain and discomfort and was taken to the hospital, where the diagnosis was a sombre one. His heart was growing and he would eventually die. He was told that on a scale of one to 10 his chance of surviving was at 9.9, and the family prepared for Matthew’s death. They were told that a heart transplant was a possibility, so they arranged for him to go to Birmingham’s Queen Elizabeth hospital, where he had a series of assessments. When the doctor told them that he would have to have a transplant, his mother said:
“Matt and I stared at each other it was so surreal. Had we both heard the same thing? We didn’t talk. Matt may have wept, I can’t be sure. I felt numb and could only think about my son who I had just been told was dying.
The sister came back in. ‘Had you been expecting to hear that?’ she asked gently. ‘No!’ we said together. It was the first thing we had said since hearing the awful news. ‘I thought Matt would need a new pacemaker.’ I said.”
She told the story—which some hon. Members will have heard—of the dreadful things that happened from then on. There were false alarms; a call from Birmingham came at 2 o’clock in the morning. They prepared themselves and started to drive up the motorway, only to be told when they were halfway there that the heart was not suitable. There were many other false alarms along the way. Eventually the transplant did occur—I find it difficult to read the whole story so I will cut it short. The family went through agony as the young man approached death. He was fitted with a device that would keep him alive for 28 days, but death was a certainty at the end. By good fortune—not from the wisdom of politicians or prelates—he survived. He is at home now and has a life expectancy of five years.
Another constituent of mine, a young woman the same age as Matt, died last year because there was no heart available. I believe we must say—because the overwhelming evidence is there in spite of what the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) said this morning—that the weight of the medical evidence shows the best way forward, and that is the decision that the Welsh Assembly is about to take. For goodness sake, instead of going along as we are—particularly today—serving the few rather than the many and talking about our various political differences, let us realise that this is an area in which we politicians can save lives and lift the burden of anxiety from families waiting for organs. We know that all of the evidence—the fair evidence, not the procrastinating evidence we have heard this morning—shows that there will be more organs available. For goodness sake, let us allow the Welsh Assembly a free run to get on with it and lead the country as it has in the past with other reforms. We hope that England and the rest of the United Kingdom will follow suit when the reforms produced by the Welsh Assembly are proved to be a great success.
Mr Mark Williams (Ceredigion) (LD)
Thank you, Mr Crausby. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning and I will be as brief as I can. I must congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Mr Davies) on securing this debate. I know that he has taken a keen interest in this matter over many years and he spoke with customary conviction while presenting his case. I do not agree with his case, but nonetheless I respect his conviction.
Mr Williams
The hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) also spoke with characteristic passion, and he spoke with passion about constituents, which is an important point to make. Another important point to acknowledge is that this is not a partisan issue. I happen to support the stance taken by the Welsh Assembly Government. It is not a Government that my party is part of, but I support the initiative of both Health Ministers in the Assembly, who happen to be Labour Members.
I will briefly explore the Assembly Government case and endorse the work of the British Medical Association. I will also highlight the work of the Kidney Wales Foundation, the British Heart Foundation, Diabetes UK Wales, the British Lung Foundation and the Kidney Welsh Patients Association.
Mr Williams
I am not going to give way to the hon. Gentleman. I will proceed because many others want to speak.
Members of the Select Committee on Welsh Affairs received the request for legislative competence on this matter, although mercifully that was superseded by the referendum result, which conveyed greater powers to the Welsh Assembly. That is why it is now able to proceed in the legislative way that it is. The debate has, of course, been triggered by the publication of the White Paper by the Assembly Government on 8 November, which proposes a soft opt-out organ donation scheme for Wales, with a view to that becoming fully operational in Wales in 2015. Both contributions we have heard this morning have acknowledged the tragically large waiting lists for donors: 10,000 people UK-wide, 500 in Wales. The wider public support was acknowledged by the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire.
It was also acknowledged that earlier committee work had been undertaken in the National Assembly, and the committee was not exactly ringing in its endorsement of a soft opt-out proposal, although it did not rule that out. The then Health Minister opened the matter to public consultation, and some 81% of respondents in 2009 indicated that they were supportive of a soft opt-out scheme.
Despite those statistics and the overwhelming public approval for a scheme, tragically only 29% of us have signed up for organ donation. There has been much mention of the international comparisons. I will not dwell on them, other than to cite again the comparison highlighted by the Kidney Wales Foundation. It looked at 22 different countries with opt-out schemes—not just Belgium or Spain—and found that over 10 years there was a 25% to 30% higher donation rate than for informed consent schemes. I appreciate what has been said about an evidence-based scheme, but we must not be selective in the evidence used. That is critical—we need to look at the whole picture.
I strongly contend that a soft opt-out approach must not be seen in isolation. The Assembly Government is not arguing that a soft opt-out scheme alone will work and do the job that we all wish to see. As the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) said in her intervention, we need to heighten publicity, which is absolutely critical. Initiatives such as the use of the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency, so that when people apply for a driving licence they are asked whether they wish to join a scheme, would play an implicit part in a soft opt-out scheme.
Mr Williams
I will carry on, because I am conscious of time.
Critically, the Assembly Government has also responded to the need to increase infrastructure to cope with transplants. It is clearly developing that: the transplant directorate of the University hospital of Wales in Cardiff is the only transplant organisation responsible for kidney and pancreas transplantation in south and mid-Wales. In March, £2.4 million was spent on the Cardiff transplant unit, which has been opened with a dedicated transplant team and with new recruits of surgical and nursing staff. The Assembly Government also committed £1.5 million to implement the recommendations of the organ donor taskforce. Infrastructure and public information, coupled with a soft opt-out scheme, is the key.
Finally, and critically, we need to address the ethical issue. The soft opt-out scheme has been described as somehow being ethically improper. I think that is probably the view—I hope I do not do him a disservice—of my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire. That view has certainly been expressed by the Archbishop of Wales. I would not dare to describe him in the glowing way that the hon. Member for Newport West did; I am a member of his Church, and I deeply respect the Archbishop of Wales. He has highlighted the issue of the relative power of the state and the individual.
As a Liberal—call me an old-fashioned liberal—I very much want to see the emphasis on individual choice. The hon. Member for Clwyd South (Susan Elan Jones) alluded to that point in her intervention. There will still be choice—the choice to opt into a scheme is still there. The archbishop’s article in the Western Mail stated:
“Organ donation…ought to be a matter of gift. If one takes organs without consent, on the assumption that a person is tacitly assenting by not opting out, then that is no longer a free gift to others. An organ donation ought to be precisely that…an act of love and generosity.”
I agree with those sentiments, but I do not accept that opting out in any way conspires against the spirit of generosity. That is where public information and the awareness issue are so important.
What we need to do, which is what the Assembly Government seek to do, is to extend that spirit of generosity so that it becomes the norm and so that the discussions that every family will have to have throughout people’s life about such matters are very much the reality. That puts the onus on the individual to make informed choices, and that should be highlighted. A point has been made about relatives and members of families. The soft opt-out option means—this has been made open to consultation by the Welsh Government—that there is a specific role for members of bereaved families, whose views will be taken into consideration.
I perhaps started this process as an intuitive supporter of soft opt-out. I remember going to a meeting organised by the hon. Member for Cardiff West (Kevin Brennan) earlier this year, when we met people who were waiting for transplant operations. There is a healthy impatience, certainly in the Assembly Government and among others of us, to see the issue resolved.
The hon. Member for Newport West talked about his constituency cases. One benefit of the House rising early yesterday was that I was able to watch a little more television than usual. I watched an excellent documentary last night about a young couple from Exeter: 21-year-old Kirstie has been waiting several years for a lung transplant. She struggled through her teenage years, and she even struggled through her wedding day while being unclear whether she could actually survive the day. The highs and the lows—the highs were that on two occasions she received telephone calls saying that a donor was available; the lows were realising that the donor was not appropriate. Miraculously, as she reached the end of her life, a suitable donor was found, and Kirstie is now recovering and enjoying an increasingly full life. Sadly, many of our constituents are not so lucky, which is why many of us are very impatient and why the National Assembly Government have taken the lead in pushing for a soft opt-out option.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thought that I should speak, and it is a pleasure to do so, on this matter, which is one of some importance to me. Every person in this House agrees that something must happen. It is the strategy or the policy for the way forward that is the issue. I have to say that I totally support the point of view of the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn).
I have carried a donor card—it is a bit faded, but it is still a donor card—for more than 20 years. This is the second or third one. If this body that I stand in today should be in an accident, and there is an opportunity for donations, I would like my body to be used for that purpose to give life to others. That is a personal opinion. There will be others in this House who carry donor cards, and they will be of the same opinion.
My nephew Peter is a recipient of an organ donation. He received a kidney. I can well remember the day he was born—he is a year younger than my elder son—and he was a wee boy. He was born with about half a kidney, and it was touch and go the whole way through his life. The result of it all was that he received a donor kidney, and today his whole life has changed. Today he races motor bikes—a bit of a tradition in our family—and he has a job and a full-quality and normal life. That is good news.
In my constituency of Strangford, we had the opportunity to have a memorial garden. That was an initiative that came from local people, who worked with the Ards borough council and ensured that a portion of land was set aside earlier on this year—in May or June—for a memorial garden so that those who are recipients of donor organs and those families whose loved ones have passed on have somewhere where they can go to have a moment of quietness or of contemplation.
Some eight years ago, just a mile from the location of that garden, an accident took place in which one person was killed instantly and another survived for a few days. Months afterwards, the father of one of them came to see me. He was still heartbroken, but he told me that his son had managed, as a result of his death, to pass on organ donations, and the gift of life, to five families. That is another illustration of the quality of life that can arise out of such events.
I am conscious of time, but I shall make three quick points. Just four weeks ago, I put down an early-day motion for the House to consider. Through that, I became conscious that we need to do something better, because the system we have today is not working. Organ donations are not coming through and we must do something about that. We need to think outside the box, if I may use that terminology—it is used often about many things. People of the vintage of 70 to 80 years old should not be excluded from organ donation. If their bodies or organs are healthy, why not use donations from people of that age? Perhaps the Minister can give us an idea about that in her response.
The hon. Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) mentioned the TV programme, which I had actually seen the night before, although it was the same one. It very clearly illustrated the highs and lows of people who are waiting on organ donation—the highs when they think it is their turn and the lows when they find out that it is not suitable. It charted the life of one person through her youth, her marriage and the countdown of days after the marriage until she was on a life-support machine and had only three days to live, and then the organ donation came through. Again, that illustrates very clearly the things that we need to do.
I have been contacted by many constituents who are aware of the issue, of the need for organ donations and of the need for that to happen quickly. My last point is in relation to those who need a transplant, but—nobody has yet mentioned this—have a rare blood group. What are the chances of someone with a rare blood group receiving an organ donation from someone of that particularly group? It is one of those 100 to one or 1,000 to one chances. We therefore have to do something different. Whether that means a pilot scheme, so that people are automatically organ donors unless they say otherwise, which is what I believe we need; I would go a stage further, although I am not sure that everyone would agree.
Unless we have a system in place that gives the individual an option and ensures that organ donations can come through, we are not serving our people or our country well. I urge hon. Members to think very honestly about the issue and to move forward in a positive fashion. We need organ donation, we need it on a different system and we need it now.
Mr Philip Hollobone (Kettering) (Con)
In October 2006, my constituent Mrs Jeanette Crizzle very sadly died from acute myeloid leukaemia. Her husband Adam decided to set up the Jeanette Crizzle Trust, of which I have the privilege to be a trustee, to promote what has become NHS Blood and Transplant’s give and let live education programme for schools. At that time, we went to see the then Health Minister—she is now the Labour Chief Whip—and she kindly agreed to get the programme under way. Young people are the donors of the future and it is vital that we reach them. They are the ones who will keep future blood stocks healthy and provide life-saving organs in years to come.
The significance of that for this debate is that my constituent Mr Adam Crizzle, once his wife had very sadly passed away, did not leap to the conclusion that we should have a system of presumed consent; he leaped to the conclusion that we should increase awareness to encourage people to become donors in the future. That is something that I am very happy to support.
I am sure that we can all agree with the comments made by the hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) showing that the present system is not working well enough. Where we might disagree is how to make it work better. I come down firmly on the side of arguing that there is plenty more opportunity to increase the awareness and to encourage people to become donors.
I take this opportunity to praise NHS Blood and Transplant for the give and let live donor education programme. I am pleased that the Health Minister has agreed to meet Mr Adam Crizzle next month to explore ways in which that programme can be further advanced and improved. Some three quarters of schools are involved in the programme, which is targeted at 14 to 16-year-olds. However, many schools have not yet been reached, and I am sure that the Department of Health can build on the initial successes in the early years of the programme to ensure that it is extended even further.
I apologise to you, Mr Crausby, for not being able to stay to the end of the debate to hear the Minister’s remarks. However, I praise my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) for securing this debate and for highlighting this important issue, and I pay tribute to all hon. Members who have contributed their passionate views to the debate.
Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab)
This is a political issue. It may not be a purely party political issue, but it is a political issue, because ultimately it is decided by politicians. If a similar proposal were introduced for other parts of the United Kingdom in this House, it would probably be whipped by the Government, who I imagine would take a political position on the issue. That may or may not be the case, but whether or not the issue is party political, it is political because it is about life-and-death matters affecting our constituents, matters that are ultimately decided by politicians. That is our duty and we should not give politics a dirty name by saying it is not a political issue, because politics is important—often, it is a life-and-death matter—and this is one example.
I listened carefully to the arguments of the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies). I absolutely accept that he is entirely sincere in making those arguments and that he has considered the matter very seriously. I know that, through a close friend, he has personal experience of the issues involved. I also know of his work with the Kidney Wales Foundation, a charity that is located in my constituency and has done such sterling work to move the issue up the agenda in Wales and to help develop the proposal brought forward by the Welsh Assembly Government.
However, I struggle to understand the logic of the hon. Gentleman’s position. He appeared to be saying something with which we can all agree—that increasing the levels of organ donation will not simply happen through a proposal such as soft presumed consent and that other things could and should be done to increase organ donation. As he rightly said, the very fact that the previous Prime Minister raised this matter from the top and generated a taskforce and a debate has helped to improve organ donation, in the same way that the Alder Hey scandal had the opposite effect on rates of organ donation in the past decade.
There are things that can be done. One study cited in the science section of the Library’s note, which hon. Members may have read, stated that the four main factors for high donation rates are “an opt-out policy”, which we are here to debate, and
“a large number of transplant centres…a high percentage of the population enrolled in university education…and a high percentage of Roman Catholics”.
That may explain the sanctimonious hyperbole of the Archbishop of Wales on the issue. He may want to reconsider the position that he has taken and to consult some of his ecumenical colleagues in other parts of the Christian faith.
The reason why I struggle with the logic of the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire is that he said that his objection was not ethical. We do not therefore have to deal with the issue of whether the proposal is an imposition by the state, which should not in any way presume anything about what should happen to the organs of someone who has died. He said at the outset of the debate that his objection was not on such grounds; he said that he wanted to cite the evidence. When I asked him whether he thought such a soft organ donation proposal would make matters worse, he said that a line in the taskforce report stated that that was a possibility, but that that was not his position and that he was not arguing that a proposal for soft organ donation would make matters worse. At the very least, all the proposal would do, according to his own argument, is make things no better. Yet he accepts that, by raising the debate and the issue, organ donation rates are likely to increase.
My argument is that the proposal is not a significant imposition on the individual human rights of people, because it is soft organ donation. In practice, what would happen is that, when an organ becomes available, it will be presumed that the donor had consented but there is still the safeguard that the relatives of that donor have to be consulted. All that would change would be the nature of the question. It would no longer be, “Your loved one did not carry a donor card and did not indicate consent before this misfortune befell them, would you agree to their organs being donated?” Instead, the question would be, “As you know, in this jurisdiction it is presumed that consent is given unless somebody opts out, and therefore we intend to proceed unless you decide to veto that process.” That is the difference. In my view, logic tells us that, in those circumstances, it is likely that more organs will be donated. Even if that was not the case, and even if, as has been said, it made no difference whatever, are we not right to try?
I believe that the proposal will be a success, and we should try it. This is the advantage of devolution: it is possible for the proposal to be tried in one part of the United Kingdom just as the smoking ban was tried despite massive objections from all sorts of people. That proved a huge success and the ban was adopted in other parts of the United Kingdom. I think the same will happen in this instance.
Glyn Davies
I accepted in my speech that the proposal in Wales may have triggered my debate in some way, but this is an issue for the United Kingdom. We have all spoken about a situation that needs to be improved, and that needs to happen across the United Kingdom. That is what today’s debate is about.
Kevin Brennan
Indeed, and I accept that. As I just said, I believe that the proposal in Wales will, eventually, lead to an improvement right across the United Kingdom.
On the constitutional point, the Welsh Government have taken legal advice and believe that they have the necessary jurisdiction to undertake the reform. If the United Kingdom Government and their legal advisers do not believe that to be the case, how should the Welsh Government react? I will tell you, Mr Crausby: they should react by making sure that they make any necessary changes to ensure that it is absolutely clear that the Welsh Government have the necessary jurisdiction to make that reform. Otherwise, we are heading for an unnecessary constitutional crisis. I hope that the Under-Secretary of State for Health will make the issue clear when she replies to the debate.
Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North) (Con)
I am grateful to be called, Mr Crausby, and I shall be brief.
First, I should like to place on record my thanks to Mr Max Gabe Wilkinson, my former neighbour, who was the founder of the Kidney Research Foundation in Wales. More than 30 years ago, he signed me up to a donor card. I can say to the hon. Member for Newport West (Paul Flynn) that, as the vice-president of the Catholic Union of Great Britain, I have been a declared donor ever since, and therefore this is no prelatory speech.
My concern is to maintain the integrity of organ donation, and confidence and trust in the system. In context of UK policy and its impact on what is happening in Wales, my remarks today will be limited to what has happened in trying to promote more organ donation through the DVLA website. As part of a policy that applies to all of the United Kingdom—the Minister is aware of my concerns because I have written to her—it is legitimate to say to people, “Do you wish to opt into organ donation?” That new system has been in operation since 1 August, but in Wales, there is no capacity to say no. My hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) put his finger on it when he said that there should be the option to say no. The Minister has helpfully written to me to say that there does not need to such an option because people can change their minds and decide to opt in later on. But if we are to have two separate systems, the option in Wales, as one of my constituents has written to me to point out, is that one cannot opt out if one is proceeding to declare a viewpoint on the DVLA website. Therefore, ultimately, if legislation is introduced in Wales—I am not expressing an opinion as to whether that legislation should be passed or not—there would have to be a different approach. Otherwise, one fundamentally undermines people’s ability to be confident that if they want to opt out, they can say so. They cannot exercise that choice on the current DVLA website.
Why is that important? It is important because we need to maintain that trust, and at the same time maintain the legal integrity of the system. Although it has been said that everything will be fine, and never mind about the legal competence, the issue relates to the position of the European Court of Human Rights. In the event of something going wrong, heaven forbid, we could end up with a negative situation in which the process that is adopted in Wales fundamentally undermines confidence in organ donation altogether. Those factors need to be in Ministers’ minds, and that is why I wanted to make a brief contribution to the debate.
Mr David Crausby (in the Chair)
Order. I am going to ask the Front-Bench spokesmen to speak at 10.40, so I ask for a short contribution from David Simpson.
David Simpson (Upper Bann) (DUP)
I appreciate the opportunity to speak, and I will be very brief.
I congratulate the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) on his passionate speech, and I understand how he feels. If we put ourselves in the position of those who are waiting on transplants, the picture is entirely different. If any one of us sitting in this room were waiting on a liver transplant, a lung transplant or whatever, we would do anything to cling on to life for our families and our children.
I accept the moral and ethical issues, and personally I might have issues about the moral aspect, but would it really matter to one of us in this room whether it was an opt out, opt in, moral or ethical choice? If you had to grasp on to life, you would do anything. Having said that, I understand that there is wealth of different arguments and opinions in this room, but life is life, and we must try to help those who are waiting on organ transplants.
Between April 2010 and March 2011, more than 1,000 lives were saved in the United Kingdom from lung, heart, liver or combined transplants. As has already been said, those people would be dead today without those transplants. That represents 1,000 families who still have their loved ones with them. When we look at the percentages, transplants are now so successful in the United Kingdom that, a year after surgery, 94% of live donor transplant kidneys are still functioning well; 88% of kidneys from people who have died are still functioning well, as are 86% of liver transplants, 84% of heart transplants and 77 % of lung transplants. That is a fantastic achievement for the medical profession.
Although there are moral and ethical issues, I believe that we should try to find some way around them. Not only should this argument be debated in this Chamber, but it should be debated in the main Chamber. We should find some resolution to it, because life is precious to no matter who it is. Perhaps a pilot scheme launched by the Welsh Assembly is the way forward, but I believe we must find a resolution. The hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) congratulated the give and let live campaign and that campaign should be extended. Primary schools were also mentioned in this respect. We hope and trust that a resolution can be found.
Mr David Crausby (in the Chair)
An even shorter contribution from Duncan Hames.
Duncan Hames (Chippenham) (LD)
Genuinely held views have been expressed by Members in this debate. We heard from Members who are proud of their donor cards, but I would ask Members when they last saw an organ donor registration form. When was the last time that those Members were asked whether they would donate their organs when they die by those who do not know that those Members hold such donor cards? I agree with the hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) that we need a methodical way in which people can sign up to the organ donor register. My hon. Friend the Member for Ceredigion (Mr Williams) referred to the success of measures in terms of driving licence applications, but they have only got us so far. We must go further.
The hon. Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) put his finger on it when he spoke about the importance of attracting young donors to the organ donor register. Later on today, I will meet the Minister in the company of young campaigners, Abby Thackray and Hope Milne, whose sign up, speak up, save lives campaign featured on Channel 4’s “Battlefront” programme. While the debate continues in Wales, we have a suggestion that gives us something to proceed with in the meantime, on which we could make progress in the rest of the Union. With the introduction of individual voter registration, I believe that there is a fresh opportunity to use a paper-based, individual process to invite every adult, as part of a canvass, to be a new organ donor. I hope that the Minister will embrace that opportunity when we meet her and the Minister with responsibility for constitutional reform later today.
Andrew Gwynne (Denton and Reddish) (Lab)
Thank you, Mr. Crausby. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I congratulate the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) on securing this debate. I also pay tribute to the hon. Member for Chippenham (Duncan Hames) for his sterling effort in squeezing a whole speech into a minute and a half—he did very well.
The system of opt-in for organ donation has been the subject for debate for many years because of the serious shortage of organ donors and consequent waiting lists for transplant operations which has led to suggestions from a number of stakeholders that a review of the current approach to organ donation is long overdue. In the United Kingdom, the number of people awaiting transplant operations greatly exceeds the number of organs available. This shortage of organ donors means that some 400 patients, mainly those waiting for life-saving heart, liver or lung transplants, die each year before a suitable donor can be found. As we have heard during the course of this debate, the BMA, many transplant surgeons, patient groups and many hon. Members in both Houses would like the UK to adopt a system of presumed consent where it is assumed that an individual wishes to be a donor unless they have opted out by registering their objection to donation after death. I recognise that there are strong feelings on both sides of the debate, as we have heard today—not least those put so eloquently by the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire.
Hon. Members who have served in this House for some time will be aware that the former Health Secretary, my right hon. Friend the Member for Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle (Alan Johnson), asked the organ donation taskforce to assess the possible impact of a change to presumed consent and the acceptability of such a change for the United Kingdom. By doing this, the previous Government recognised the complexity of the issues and widely differing viewpoints surrounding systems of consent to organ donation.
We know that the taskforce examined the complex moral and medical issues around presumed consent, including giving the family of the deceased a final say on the donation of any organs. It also looked at the views of the public, health organisations and other clinical, ethical, legal and social issues raised by a wide range of stakeholders, while at the same time establishing a series of expert working groups to help gather the relevant evidence. The Minister will be aware that the resulting report, entitled “The Potential Impact of an Opt Out System for Organ Donation in the UK” was published in November 2008, recommending that the current system of opt-in be retained and the recommendations of the taskforce’s earlier report on organs for transplant, produced in January 2008, be implemented. However, in July 2007, the chief medical officer supported the idea of an opt-out system with proper safeguards and good public information. My right hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath (Mr Brown) also called for a public debate on the issue of presumed consent when he was Prime Minister and did not rule out changing the law to an opt-out system.
So what would actually happen under a system of opting out? It proposes that every person living in the country in which it is introduced is deemed to have given their consent to organ donation unless they have specifically opted out by recording in writing their unwillingness to give organs. Supporters of the introduction of such a system in the United Kingdom believe that establishing an automatic right to take organs when the donor has not expressed wishes to the contrary would lead to a significant increase in the number of potential donors. They also conclude that the relatives of, or those close to, a person who has not expressed a wish to donate would be relieved of the burden of making that decision at such a traumatic time.
However, one fear with presumed consent is that people will not get round to registering an objection and the subsequent expectation that organ donation should take place could lead to unnecessary distress for relatives and widespread adverse publicity. Many transplant recipients add that a donated organ is more easily accepted because they know that it has been positively given by the deceased whereas presuming consent would turn donation into an action by default.
Other concerns surround the potential medical risks involved in removing organs without full discussion with relatives. Families are a valuable source of information about their loved one’s previous health and relatives are questioned as part of the screening process. If an individual does not register an objection, it is possible that their silence may indicate a lack of understanding rather than agreement with the policy. It is because of these concerns that, in the majority of countries operating an opt-out system, health care professionals still consult the family to establish consent.
While always looking closely at both the pros and cons of the system of presumed consent, there is recognition across the health care profession and more widely that there is a crisis which leads to tragic loss of life—in the UK, at least one patient a day dies waiting for a transplant.
The former chief medical officer, Sir Liam Donaldson, was an enthusiastic supporter of presumed consent. He told The Guardian in 2007:
“We have something of a crisis in this country. Every day at least one patient dies while on the transplant waiting list. There are something like 7,000 people on the waiting list at any one time. There is a shortage of organs in this country and the situation is getting worse.”
A team at the centre for reviews and dissemination at the university of York focused on 13 studies and found strong links between presumed consent and increased donation rates. One of the studies found that donation rates were 25% to 30% with presumed consent. However, researchers also said that it was unlikely that presumed consent alone accounted for all of the effect as one study found that the number of transplant centres had a greater effect than an opt-out system. Other factors that had an effect on donation rates were death from road traffic accidents, health spending, public awareness and religion.
Support for presumed consent in the UK, as we have already heard, has grown steadily since 2000 and, in a survey carried out in 2007, 64% of respondents were in favour of moving to presumed consent. The BMA’s own figures are even more favourable, showing that around 70% to 90% of the population would be willing to donate their organs after death.
As I said earlier, when my party was in government, the then Health Secretary asked the organ donation taskforce to make specific recommendations to improve the infrastructure within which donation takes place and, since those were made, improvements have been achieved, with a 28% increase in donation rates over three years. The changes proposed by the taskforce include a wide range of measures designed to make the offer of donation a standard part of the care provided to dying patients—in the words of the taskforce, to make donation a
“usual and not an unusual event”.
As we have heard today, the Minister will be aware that this issue is being pursued in Wales with the National Assembly for Wales and the Welsh Assembly Government recently publishing a White Paper on an organ donation Bill for Wales which suggests an opt-out system with safeguards. As we have heard today, the moral and ethical arguments continue. It is right that we have this debate and have it in the United Kingdom Parliament as well as in the Assembly and that we raise awareness of this issue and help to educate people.
I share the concerns expressed today about the insufficient organs donated in the United Kingdom. There is no doubt that we need more people to realise that organ donation saves lives. We know that, in future, organ shortages—particularly for kidneys—are likely to increase. I congratulate the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire on securing this important debate, thank all hon. Members for their contribution and look forward to hearing from the Minister how the Government propose to resolve the crisis, what their position is on a presumed consent system and what action the Department of Health is taking to carry forward the work done by the previous Government on this issue.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Health (Anne Milton)
Thank you Mr. Crausby. It is a pleasure to serve under you today. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Montgomeryshire (Glyn Davies) on securing this debate on presumed consent. I also thank him for his thoughtful contribution. Like him, I am fixed only on the evidence. I do not have an ethical position on this—I will act on the medical evidence in front of me. Sometimes, with an issue like this, there is a huge danger that the plight of those waiting to have a transplant clouds the ability for some to consider the evidence clearly. What matters is what actually works. The hon. Member for Denton and Reddish (Andrew Gwynne), the shadow health spokesman, outlined some of the complex issues around presumed consent and what faces the public.
This is not a party political issue. It is an issue decided on by politicians, but I would be saddened if it became a party political issue. It is also not an opportunity to exchange insults. Rather, it is an opportunity to make a difference. So, if nothing else, I would urge hon. Members to leave the Chamber today, and call their local press to see whether. together, they can start a campaign to raise awareness and to begin a conversation in their constituencies. Politicians generally have considerable access to the press. On the whole, we are not averse to having the odd photo of ourselves. I am sure that we have opportunities to raise awareness of this important subject.
There are now about 10,000 people requiring a transplant. Three of them die every day waiting for a transplant or after they are taken off the list because, tragically, they are too ill. Research shows that the majority of people in the UK support transplantation. Extensive reference has been made to Wales, and we shall study those proposals carefully before we respond. But I want to make it clear that the Government do not believe that the introduction of presumed consent, by itself, will necessarily lead to an increase in donor rates. It is important that any Government keep the evidence under review.
As many hon. Members have said, the organ donation taskforce considered the issue of presumed consent in great detail. As my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff North (Jonathan Evans) said, many of those involved in the taskforce changed their minds, and that is an important point to make. In its second report, published in 2008, the taskforce did not recommend introducing an opt-out system. It felt that an opt-out system would have the potential to deliver benefits but, as my hon. Friend said, it would also present significant challenges that would need to be overcome. Instead, the taskforce believed then, and believes now, that a significant increase in donor rates can be achieved by acting on the recommendations in the first report.
The UK needs to maximise its potential for donation and make organ donation a usual part of health care. We still believe that the implementation of those recommendations will result in an increase in organ donation rates at least 50% by 2013, and that is still on track. Through NHS Blood and Transplant, the number of specialist nurses, clinical leads, donation committees and donation chairs in acute trusts have all increased, and that has borne considerable fruit—since 2008, an increase of 31%, up from 28% —those are the most recent figures.
Some studies suggest a link between presumed consent and higher donor rates, but closer examination shows the picture to be very much more complex—my hon. Friend the Member for Kettering (Mr Hollobone) was so right. Spain has been quoted at length. It has a donor rate of 32 per million of population, compared to the UK’s 16 per million. They have presumed consent, but the architect of the “Spanish model” has repeatedly stated that the legal basis of consent is irrelevant to organ donation. What is critical is the organ donation and retrieval system in place, with highly trained staff and a well-designed donation framework, supported by high public awareness of the issues and benefits. We need awareness and a conversation with our families. In practice, I doubt whether there is a surgeon anywhere who would take an organ from somebody without the consent of their family.
I am pleased to report that organ donor rates have increased by around 31% since 2008 and we are on track to meet the 50% improvement. On top of that, over 18 million people, some 29% of the United Kingdom population, have added their name to the organ donor register. In 2010-11, there was a record number of deceased organ donors—1,010 donors compared with 745 in 2001-02. That year also saw a record number of transplants from deceased and living owners—3,740 transplants were carried out in the UK, compared with 2,600-odd in 2001-02. However, despite the progress, there is still a shortage of organs and I am surprised that more has not been made of the inequalities that surround this issue.
The situation is very serious for people from African-Caribbean and Asian backgrounds, who are three to five times more likely to need a kidney transplant. Almost a quarter, 23%, of patients waiting for a kidney are from black or minority ethnic groups but they make up only 8% of the UK population. Three quarters of people from a BME background refuse organ donation when asked, compared with an average figure of 40%. There is particular and specific issue, which we need to address, but it is not insurmountable. We need more people from BME communities to register to donate their organs and, more widely, there needs to be a greater understanding in BME communities of the problems that they face—a greater need for kidney transplants, longer waits and less well-matched organs being donated for their communities.
We cannot be complacent and must carry on the work of the previous Government through schemes such as the give and let live initiative; requiring people to answer a question on organ donation when applying for a driving licence on-line; signing on the organ donor register when applying for a European health insurance card or a Boots advantage card; and specific initiatives within the black and minority ethnic populations, like working with faith organisations, radio stations, charities and community groups. What we really need is for people to sign up to having a conversation with their families. That is what really matters.
Work continues at every level on referring and procuring organ donors. We are also trying to make organ donation a usual part of end-of-life care. I hope hon. Members will think on that for a moment. When we think about making organ donation a part of end-of-life care, one realises what a complex, emotional and sensitive issue this. The hon. Member for Llanelli (Nia Griffith) mentioned families talking about this matter. That is so critical, so that when tragedy comes, the transition to donation is simple.
We have set up a transitional steering group, and it will focus on six key areas: increasing consent rates; brain stem death testing in all appropriate cases; donation after circulatory death to be considered in all circumstances; increasing donation from emergency medicine; referral of potential donors; and improving donor management.
I thank hon. Members for their thoughtful contributions. I know that this is an emotive issue that raises strong feelings. We need an evidence-based approach. I thank all those in this country who have donated the organs of family members in the midst of the turmoil of death. That death has and does give life to others—not just one person, but often two, three or four people. Nothing can ever relieve the burden of grief or loss, but nothing can replace the gift of life that organ donation represents. We have to use every tool at our disposal to increase those donation rates. We have to remind people, at every opportunity, that this is about a gift of life and in particular focus on those communities that are more disadvantaged than others.
Water Bills (South West)
(13 years ago)
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Dan Rogerson (North Cornwall) (LD)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this morning, Mr Crausby, and I am very grateful for the opportunity to cover this particular topic. It will not be for the first time, I must say. Those who have sat in your position over the years have seen many debates secured by Members from our part of the world on this huge issue for our constituents: very high water bills.
We have moved on a little since we last met. I recall being here in March for a debate secured my hon. Friend the Member for Torbay (Mr Sanders), at which point we were still looking at how the responses to the Walker review of 2009 would come forward. We now have a concrete response from the coalition Government, about which I am delighted. Politicians are always looking out for our constituents, so there are one or two things I want to ask the Minister later, particularly about social tariffs and WaterSure, but I would like to start off the debate by congratulating the Department and the Minister’s colleagues across Government for the contributions they have made.
It bears repeating why we are in this situation and what the experience of our constituents has been in Devon, Cornwall and the west of Somerset and Dorset over the past couple of decades since privatisation. At the time of privatisation, there was an aspiration on the part of the Conservative Government to see private investment coming in to develop infrastructure that had been neglected. There is no doubt that it had been neglected for decades, but there was huge concern at the time from those who could not see how competition could work in a sector where there was one main supplier and one main company dealing with waste. That has been an issue, in that no sort of market emerged, unlike in other privatised industries.
The key question for us in the South West Water area was one of infrastructure. The company was able to do a huge amount, both to deal with the environmental legacy that it was left and to meet the requirements set by the Government and the European Union. We welcome that, of course. Organisations such as Surfers Against Sewage, which has been around and done fantastic environmental work over the years, were at the forefront of holding Government and industry to account to deliver on their commitments and obligations. While we have seen progress, investment can only be secured against an income stream. The company had to seek that investment—get investment from shareholders and go to the markets for money—on the basis of an income stream.
In Cornwall and south-west England, we have seen a huge legacy of environmental works that need to be carried out, to a far greater degree than any other part of the country. I refer to the fact that the population of Cornwall accounts for 3% of the population of England, but we have 30% of the coastline. That is an easy way to illustrate the scale of the problem; we have a large amount of work to do, but a relatively small population to pay for it, despite the fact that the coastline is a national treasure, if you like. It is enjoyed by people from across the country who come to take advantage of it. We have the south-west coast path and all sorts of attractions for people to come to enjoy the beaches and countryside of Cornwall and Devon, but we have not had a way to capture a contribution from those people towards the maintenance of infrastructure. It falls to people living closer to that national asset to pay for the whole lot.
There has been some concern in the press recently about the policy of contribution outlined in the Budget and referred to in the autumn statement, and the money set aside to help in this regard. There was an article in The Times last week, in which there were rumblings from other parts of the country about how unfair this was. I do not think that that unfairness exists; this is a much fairer solution to a problem that people in my constituency and those neighbouring it have experienced for a couple of decades. There is still, however, a lack of understanding. We have perhaps not made a big enough effort at national level to get across to those who are concerned in other parts of the country just why there is a desperate need.
Andrew George (St Ives) (LD)
First, I congratulate my hon. Friend on having secured this important debate. I would like to congratulate the Government and welcome the announcement in the autumn statement yesterday, although I have to say that it was a 20-year ask. My hon. Friend referred to WaterSure and the social tariff. Does he agree that the statement yesterday does not mean that we should not also make a strong case for an equitable outcome with regard to the future statement on WaterSure and the social tariff when the water White Paper comes out next week?
Dan Rogerson
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. Earlier, I hinted that I would return to that, and of course he understands that further questions remain, which, if settled fairly and equitably, could ensure that the contribution set aside in the Budget has the maximum impact, and that none of its benefits are lost through unintended consequences with regard to tariff schemes.
Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot) (Con)
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for giving way and would like to add my thanks to the Government for what is undoubtedly a great contribution to our household bills. Is my hon. Friend expressing concern that, while that is a good first step, we want to ensure that the benefit is not eroded by future changes? There is the prospect of further EU directives impacting on the cost of preserving our beaches.
Dan Rogerson
We must always have an eye on those sorts of costs and look at any other measures that the Government introduce to deal with the emerging issue of water poverty, which is unfortunately catching up in other parts of England and Wales. Any measures to tackle that should not undermine the good done in the recent announcement.
The time of privatisation in the late 1980s was particularly fraught in my constituency, because it coincided with a water poisoning incident at the Lowermoor treatment works, which is still controversial today. A link was drawn between the fact that there was no inquiry into the incident at the time and the fact that privatisation was under way. I must say that that feeling still exists in the minds of many who feel that they may have been affected by that incident. There is an ongoing inquest in Taunton that is finally getting to the bottom of some of those questions. I pay tribute to Doug Cross for all the work that he and his fellow campaigners have done on that issue over the years.
We then moved into the period when it became apparent that all of this work needed to be done. It was done, and there have been huge improvements in water quality, with benefits to the local community and people from further afield who can come and enjoy our wonderful environment. After the departure of the last Conservative Government, we moved into the period of the Labour Government. I pay tribute to Linda Gilroy, a former Member who campaigned a lot on this issue. It was very helpful to have one Member on the Labour side—they were few and far between, and it is even further between in the south-west now—and she very much engaged with this, and was seeking a response.
Right at the end of the previous Government we had the Walker review. At the last gasp of their term in office, they finally had that review. I must say, however, that we had the feeling at the time that there was not going to be the kind of response that we wanted to hear, in terms of national recognition of this problem. We wanted the recognition that it needed to be handled at that level rather than by the relatively small population in the area. I was frustrated by the attitude of Ofwat in all of this. They could have played a much stronger role in advocating to the Government on the issue of unfairness and the problems it causes for bill payers and the industry in the south-west.
We move on, however, and we now have a coalition Government who put their determination to do something about this in the coalition agreement. I pay tribute to the Chief Secretary to the Treasury on the Liberal Democrat side, and to the right hon. Member for West Dorset (Mr Letwin) on the Conservative side. I know that both of them are determined to work with DEFRA to deliver on this and ensure that that commitment is met. However, with the very welcome £50 contribution towards each household’s domestic bills in the South West Water area, there are further decisions to be taken around WaterSure, which is a scheme that helps people who are in the most need with their bills. It is funded by a form of cross-subsidy from billpayers. The crucial question is whether that subsidy is a within-region subsidy, or whether it is a national one.
I have heard the view that it should just be within the water company’s area. However, that is a dangerous road to go down, for the following reasons. First, I believe that it should be about meeting need, wherever that need may be. Even after this £50 contribution to high water bills per household in the south-west, we will still have the highest water bills in the country, by some way. If we compare the average £517 annual charge in the south-west—and that is the average, of course; those who are unmetered will have a much higher charge—with the Thames Water figure of £319, we see that there is a £219 difference. The £50 will close that gap a bit, but it will still be considerable.
I accept that that is as far as the Government could go with that measure of financial support in the Budget. However, for customers still struggling with those high water charges, WaterSure is a lifeline. For those who are just above that threshold, as always, we have this issue. It would be unjust, having at last secured recognition and support from the Government, to see some of that £50 clawed back in a significant way to fund WaterSure, and also further in regional social tariffs, which is something that water companies are exploring.
South West Water have really engaged in this process. As a private company, it is a tricky thing for it to do; confronting the fact that it has the highest bills is perhaps something it does not want to talk about. However, I pay tribute to Chris Loughlin and the management of the company, who have been absolutely straightforward about the fact that this is the problem they are facing. They want a solution, and they want to play their part in driving forward efficiencies in the business. They were honest about the situation that we face.
South West Water also want to do more with social tariffs. However, the issue for the company is that if we were to have WaterSure funded only within the South West Water area, that would mean that every bill payer who is not on WaterSure would be paying approximately £3.41 towards those who are, whereas across the country the average funding for WaterSure on bills—I am sure the Minister will correct me if I get this wrong—is 30p to 40p. That is a far fairer way of dealing with the issue. Just because someone happens to live in the south-west, they should not be affected by these social tariffs to a greater degree than people elsewhere. The need for people to be on social tariffs in the South West Water area is much higher than in other parts of the country, because the bills are higher, but also because, despite what some might feel about the leafy south-west, it is an area of great poverty. My own region of Cornwall is in receipt of convergence money from the European Union in recognition of the fact that, sadly, our economy still has some way to go to catch up with the wider UK economy.
Another parallel that could be drawn is the issue of additionality. It was always a battle under the previous regional development agency regime to say that, just because we are getting the convergence money, we should not miss out on our fair share of the regional development agency’s money as well. It is supposed to be additional, to help us get to parity with everybody else. This £50, welcome though it is and a tribute to how the coalition Government is tackling these problems, should be in addition to WaterSure and social tariffs that come along. It is not a replacement for them. While the Minister’s Department is looking further at how these social tariffs could play a role in meeting that need, my key point today, in thanking the Minister and the Government for what they have done for our constituents with this £50 assistance, is to ask that when we return to the issue of WaterSure and social tariffs, we should, as far as possible, make them fair and focused on individuals, no matter where they are in the country, rather than being in some kind of fortress south-west, because we would then be taking a step back, having made a step forward. I would hate the Government to be doing that when they are at last making great progress on an issue which has been a huge problem for us over the past two decades.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Richard Benyon)
First, may I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall (Dan Rogerson) on introducing this debate in an extremely timely manner. Perhaps if it was this time yesterday he would have been extolling the Government to take yet more action, and I am very glad that we were able to deliver. It has been a feature of Parliamentary life that when two or more south-west MPs are gathered together, the issue of water charges is raised, and as the Minister responsible, I am well aware of its importance to a huge number of his and other hon. Friends’ constituents in various constituencies across the south-west.
This is a really important issue for those people, and I recognise the important point that my hon. Friend made at the end: welcome as the measure is, he and other Members from all parts of the House will continue to push on this issue until they feel that greater parity has been achieved in water charges. As he knows, the average water and sewerage bill for household customers across England and Wales is £356, but the average for South West Water, before we implement these changes, is £517. He and other hon. Members will have dealt with cases of constituents, many of them in extremely straitened circumstances, whose bills are considerably higher. I recognise that this is an ongoing discussion and one that I am keen to continue to have with hon. Members across the south-west.
I am delighted that the Government were able to announce details of support for customers of South West Water in the autumn statement yesterday. Every South West Water household bill, as my hon. Friend says, will be reduced by £50 a year. That follows the commitment made in the Budget earlier this year to use public expenditure to support households facing high bills. The Government had to act. In her review, Anna Walker identified the fact that households in the south-west of England faced the highest water bills in the country, because at the time of privatisation, South West Water had the lowest levels of infrastructure required to protect drinking water quality and safeguard the wonderful environment that my hon. Friend so accurately described. This was the biggest challenge facing any water company at privatisation and in the 20 years that have elapsed since then, South West Water has invested around £2 billion to raise sewerage standards to the same level as elsewhere.
Local people have benefited though improved water quality, reduced leakage, cleaner beaches and bathing water, but—and it is a very big but—the cost has been met by those customers. The Government recognise that circumstances faced by customers of South West Water are exceptional and unfair. We are now addressing this historic issue and will contribute to the cost of reducing bills. We looked very closely at Anna Walker’s recommendations, and that was a feature of the debate that my hon. Friend secured some months ago in this Chamber. We decided that each household customer should receive an annual discount on their water bill. I am very grateful to all the south-west MPs who have doggedly raised this issue and demanded action. It is in the hon. Gentleman’s character to be big enough to recognise the input from Members of all parties and, of course, to Linda Gilroy, who raised this question in her time in the House.
This is a fairness measure: a payment to all South West Water household customers to redress an historic unfairness. This debate comes just ahead of the water White Paper, of which a key theme is affordability. South-west MPs have often raised with me and my predecessors individual cases of people in their constituencies who really struggle to afford their bills. Thankfully, even before yesterday’s announcement, South West Water had taken action to address the region’s particular set of circumstances and to tackle affordability problems. The company has a free debt helpline that helps customers to set up payment plans, it offers water metering and water conservation advice, and it recognises that many people are able to reduce their bills and to use water more efficiently by having a water meter.
I echo the words of my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall about Chris Loughlin and his team. I have worked closely with them, and they have an absolute and genuine determination to address the issues. South West Water works with local citizens advice bureaux and other experts, and it has introduced a range of initiatives to help those who find it difficult to pay their bills. It has established an advice gateway with south-west citizens advice bureaux and it trains and sponsors CAB debt advisers. Advice agencies such as the CAB can refer struggling customers to the company’s water care scheme and can obtain benefit entitlement checks, tariff checks, water efficiency advice and free efficiency devices.
South West Water also has a scheme for customers who are in debt, and I am very impressed by that work. I have been into households with advisers and seen the impact that they can have on the bills paid by people on low incomes just by installing a very few items or by changing those people’s behaviour, including what they do and how they use water throughout the day. That can have an enormous effect on household bills, but I recognise that, in this context, it might still be only a relatively small proportion of bills. In doing that, South West Water and companies with similar schemes have recognised the benefits to customers, and also to the company. I applaud such schemes, which are designed by water companies to tackle local problems in their region. Many companies in other Members’ constituencies have similar excellent schemes.
Water affordability problems are not confined to the south-west. Across England and Wales, 23% of households spend more than 3% of their disposable income on water and sewerage charges. Some 2.5 million households are spending more than 5% of their disposable income on water. That is a very important issue and one that the Government take very seriously. That is why water affordability will be a key theme in the upcoming water White Paper. We will commit ourselves to a long-term and a short-term set of actions to ensure that water bills are affordable.
WaterSure, to which my hon. Friend the Member for North Cornwall referred, will continue. It will be supported by social tariffs, which will enable water companies to design locally appropriate schemes. We believe WaterSure is really important, but we recognise that its criteria mean that it deals only with families who have a relatively large number of children—three or more—or with elderly or infirm people who require more water because of their circumstances. I have been persuaded by the many moving cases that have been put to me by colleagues about the circumstances of particular constituents.
I recognise the importance of WaterSure in addressing the concerns of those individuals, but I also recognise that about 50,000 people are currently claiming. WaterSure can therefore only ever help a small group of people in water need. That is why company social tariffs, on which we are consulting, are so important. When the consultation ends in January, we will quickly announce the guidelines for those enormously important tariffs.
Dan Rogerson
The Minister is being very helpful. On the groups who are covered by WaterSure, the south-west not only has many people on low incomes, but it has an ageing demographic because of the huge inward migration of older people and the outward migration of younger people. If WaterSure could be established with a national coverage, it would ensure that when people spend their active working life in another water region of the country and then end up in the south-west—I hope, to live a happy and long life in retirement—we had a fairer distribution of the cost. Otherwise, that will all have to be funded within the region.
Richard Benyon
My hon. Friend makes a very good point. However, the other important point to note is that the fact that the south-west has a much higher percentage of households on meters is good for those particular people, because they very often use much less water than larger families or households in multiple occupancy. That offers a really effective way not only of paying proportionally lower bills, but of managing problems—for example, they will know much sooner, if they are on a meter, if there is a leak. I applaud the work done by the company. We want to see such work developed not only in the south-west but elsewhere, and we will encourage that.
Andrew George
The Minister is speaking about the crux of what will no doubt appear in the water White Paper next year. The impact of the flat £50 per household reduction is welcome. It will apply irrespective of whether households are wealthy second home owners on water meters who therefore have relatively low bills or the large number of local families in straitened circumstances. It is those families for whom a nationally equitable solution is required because, despite the £50 reduction, they will still face considerable bills.
Richard Benyon
First, I can say to my hon. Friend that he will not have to wait until next year for the water White Paper, which is much more imminent. I cannot tell him precisely when, but it will be very soon. Secondly, the White Paper will examine the whole range of affordability issues and solutions. I hope that the package we introduce will make a real difference.
My hon. Friend and all Members who represent the south-west will recognise that that will require legislation, which is why I cannot promise that it will be delivered before April 2013. I wish it could, but we are convinced that primary legislation is required, although we hope to deliver it in time for the start of the financial year in April 2013.
Company social tariffs will allow water companies everywhere to reduce the bills of those who would otherwise be unable to afford them in full. In conjunction with the excellent existing support schemes and advice, companies will be able to design the right tariffs for their region. We want all companies to introduce social tariffs as part of a package of advice and support for customers about affordability and efficiency. I hope that hon. Members, advice organisations and environmental organisations will work with water companies to design the best schemes for their regions.
Before I conclude, I just want to express again my appreciation to hon. Members across the south-west for their efforts in bringing forward this matter, and my determination to continue this discussion in the future.
Scotland (Poverty)
(13 years ago)
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Sandra Osborne (Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock) (Lab)
I am grateful for having been able to secure this debate on poverty in Scotland on 30 November, St. Andrew’s day, which is also the day of industrial action in support of public sector workers and their pensions. Nothing could be more relevant to the working people of Scotland today than highlighting the threat of the growing poverty in our nation and the attack on workers’ rights by this ideologically driven, right-wing coalition Government. As I describe the Scotland I know, the reality of poverty and the threatened growth in poverty which is facing Scotland, I hope that the Minister will reflect and respond from his perspective of Scotland—although I have my doubts that there will be a shared perspective.
We Scots are often portrayed as a bit sentimental about Scotland, especially on occasions like Burns night or St. Andrew’s day. I want to talk about the reality of poverty in Scotland today. I do not think that the Minister will want to use any notes from my speech at whatever St. Andrew’s night bash he graces this evening. The national heroes and heroines to whom I would like to pay tribute are the anti-poverty organisations such as the Child Poverty Action Group in Scotland, the Poverty Alliance, the churches and other umbrella groups, bringing together those committed to seeing a fairer, more equal Scotland. The heroes and heroines to whom I would like to pay tribute are those in the unions and the Scottish Trades Union Congress who stand up for people’s rights at work and who fight the scourge of unemployment and the attack on working conditions. That is the Scotland to which we should pay tribute today.
I would like to acknowledge the excellent work done by John Dickie, head of CPAG Scotland, particularly for producing the book “Poverty in Scotland”, which contains some relevant facts and figures to which I shall refer. How do we measure poverty? People are considered as living in poverty if they live in households with less than 60% of median household income. That is the key measure used by the UK and Scottish Governments and by the European Union. Using that measure, and after housing costs are taken into account, the latest official data show that a single person is in poverty if he or she is living on less than £124 a week. A lone-parent family with two children aged five and 14 are in poverty if they are living on less than £256 a week, as is a couple with two children aged five and 14 on less than £346 a week—which is just over £12 a day, and not a lot to cover food, fuel bills, household goods and transport, never mind school trips, family visits and leisure activities. About 970,000 people in Scotland live in poverty—19% of the population. About 250,000 children live in poverty—25% of all children. Poverty in Scotland and across the UK is significantly higher than in many other European countries. In Denmark and Norway fewer than 10% of children live in poverty, while Germany has a poverty rate of 15%.
One would have thought that poverty levels in this day and age should be falling, but not any more. Yes, real progress had been made specifically among children—the numbers went down by 100,000 between 1996-97 and 2004-05. The number of pensioners in poverty has decreased by nearly two thirds since 1996-97. However, since 2007 there has been no overall reduction in child poverty or in poverty among adults of working age.
Mark Lazarowicz (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab/Co-op)
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way and I congratulate her on securing this debate. Given her comments, does she share my disappointment and anger at the fact that 10,000 children in Scotland are likely to be forced into poverty as a result of the tax and benefit decisions made by the Government yesterday?
Sandra Osborne
Absolutely. I will come to that point later.
These trends follow dramatic increases in poverty between 1979 and the mid-1990s. Perhaps, like me, the Minister remembers those years and can offer a view on what caused that to happen and on whether we are heading back in that direction, thanks to his Government’s policy. That is exactly the direction in which the Government are taking Scotland. Cuts and reforms currently in train will have a significant negative impact on individuals and communities across Scotland and on devolved issues such as housing, child care, health, social care, equality and anti-poverty policy as a whole.
In June 2010 the Chancellor promised a Budget that would be tough, but fair. He announced an increase in VAT to 20%, a two-year pay freeze for public sector workers, a three-year freeze in child benefit and a tightening of housing benefit entitlements and eligibility for child tax credits, among other austerity measures. Coupled with the comprehensive spending review last October, those measures represent some of the most regressive in living memory. Yet, in the same breath, the Government claim that we are all in this together.
Fiona Bruce (Congleton) (Con)
I thank the hon. Lady for giving way. Does she not recognise that if the Government had not had to make these difficult decisions, the position for children growing up in Scotland—and, indeed, their children for generations to come—could have been far worse?
Sandra Osborne
My point is that the cuts have not been made in a fair and even manner, as the Government promised. I will develop that point later.
It is all too evident that the impact will fall disproportionately on vulnerable groups and on those who deliver the services on which those groups depend. Those are not just my views; there has been widespread condemnation from campaigning groups and third-sector organisations in Scotland that the budget and austerity measures will further increase poverty and inequality.
As my hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh North and Leith (Mark Lazarowicz) said, in yesterday’s autumn statement we heard of further measures. The Chancellor announced the expansion of free nursery places for two-year-olds, helping 260,000 children. But, alongside that, he announced that he would be taking more than £1.3 billion a year from families by failing to go ahead with the planned additional £110 rise in child tax credits and by freezing working tax credits.
Dr Eilidh Whiteford (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
I congratulate the hon. Lady on securing today’s debate. This is a very important subject to discuss on St. Andrew’s day. Does the hon. Lady share my concern that the poorest families will suffer a disproportionate impact from these cuts, and that the 20% of the poorest families in Scotland will bear the brunt?
Sandra Osborne
That is the whole point of raising this debate today.
All this has happened despite the fact that when the Chancellor announced the rise in tax credits he said that it would support 4 million lower-income families, helping to ensure that there would be no adverse impact on child poverty. As the Minister knows, there is now a law relating to child poverty. The Chancellor has now taken that extra support away from the 4 million families. In its distributional analysis of yesterday’s measures, the Treasury has admitted that, as a result of the decisions taken by the Government, the number of children living in households with incomes below 60% of the median will increase by 100,000 in 2012-13—which will mean more children living in poverty.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way and for securing this debate. When we talk about big numbers, medians and so on, it can sometimes be difficult for people to understand how changes impact on their lives. Is my hon. Friend aware of research done by the Union of Shop, Distributive and Allied Workers which shows that, already, some £989 has been taken from a low to middle-income family as a result of changes to tax credits? That is even before this latest broken promise, with £110 being taken from child credits.
Sandra Osborne
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. We are concerned about the impact on ordinary people. The quicker they realise exactly what this Government are up to, the better.
Who are these people? Alongside children, certain groups are at particular risk of poverty. They include lone parents, women, people who are not working, people affected by disability and people from ethnic minorities.
Mr Brian H. Donohoe (Central Ayrshire) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on securing this debate. As one of my neighbouring colleagues, she knows full well the problems of unemployment, particularly among young people. Is that not one of the main areas that should be tackled at an early stage—earlier than this Government intend?
Sandra Osborne
Absolutely. I will refer to that later. To say that it is too little, too late would put it very mildly.
Poverty is most prevalent in urban areas, yet there are almost 100,000 income-deprived people in rural areas in Scotland. I would be interested to hear the Minister’s views on what he thinks causes poverty. The Tories are quick to identify individual behaviour as a cause of most social ills, but individual behaviour is of limited value in explaining the extent of poverty in Scotland. The key drivers are inequality, low pay, inadequate benefits, poor-quality work opportunities and lack of support for those with caring responsibilities, ill health or those affected by disability. A lack of money leads to the threat of falling into debt, choosing between necessities, going without basics, frequently being caught up in a cycle of dead-end jobs and being unable to save. For children, it means, for example, having less access to safe play spaces and being less likely to participate in arts and drama, sport or other outdoor activities.
While financial inclusion policies have led to significant improvements since 2007 and access to basic financial products, one third of households with incomes of less than £20,000 still have no savings. Those households are also less likely to have the means to participate fully in society more generally. Over half, for example, still have no internet access or car available to them. What is more, they are far more likely to be living in fuel poverty, spending a disproportionate level of already inadequate income on basic— [Interruption.]
John Robertson
(in the Chair): Order. There is a vote in the Chamber. The sitting will be suspended for 15 minutes.
Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)
On a point of order, Mr. Robertson. How does this affect the timing of the sitting?
John Robertson
(in the Chair): The sitting will be delayed for 15 minutes. Extra time will be added, and the debate will still have its full time.
Sandra Osborne
I was about to talk about people who are living in fuel poverty who are spending a disproportionate level of already inadequate income on basic energy bills. Almost 1 million households, more than one in three Scots, now struggle to heat their homes. However, the SNP has cut the budget to help tackle fuel poverty by almost a third, down from £70.9 million in 2010-11 to £48 million in 2011-12. Dr Brenda Boardman from Oxford university, previously lauded by First Minister Alex Salmond, has said that Scotland has some of the worst fuel poverty in the UK. She describes the SNP’s cut in the fuel poverty fund as a real slap in the face for the fuel poor.
Dr Whiteford
I know that fuel poverty is something that is also taken extremely seriously in my constituency, partly because people do not have access to social tariffs on low incomes. They also often have trouble accessing broadband. But will the hon. Lady accept that the SNP Government have done more than previous Labour Governments ever did to address fuel poverty in Scotland, and are making record levels of investment in their energy assistance package and with other measures?
Sandra Osborne
I think that they flatter to deceive. Measures have been cut, including what I have just described. As I say, it is not just from me, it is from a very eminent professional who is an expert in the field. At the end of the day the Scottish Government will decide how to implement the budget in Scotland.
Not surprisingly, poverty means lower levels of mental wellbeing, shorter lifespans and more ill health. Those in the lowest 20% of household incomes, particularly women, are far more likely to suffer from depression, anxiety and attempted suicide, while men living in the most deprived areas have a life expectancy of more than 11 years shorter than those in the 20% least deprived areas of Scotland. The situation in Scotland is very serious. Here I would like to pay tribute to Campbell Christie, the former STUC leader and another truly great Scot, who recently passed away but who chaired the Scottish Commission on Public Services. Its report said:
“Members of the commission have been struck by just how much public spending is skewed by that bottom 20% in terms of poverty, unemployment, health and all the factors that go with it—and how little progress has been made on that bottom 20%.
If you are going to do anything, you should relentlessly target resources at the bottom 20%. That would bring Scotland up overall: it's not just a moral case for social justice; there's a strong economic argument too.”
A recent national survey revealed that six of the 10 worst areas of Britain are on the west coast of Scotland, including areas of Glasgow.
In any debate on poverty, certain key assertions must be made. First, income and material conditions remain the most fundamental determining dimensions of poverty. Political and policy emphasis on non-income dimensions of poverty must not be used to draw attention away from the fundamental causes of poverty—lack of money.
The policy can work. The Labour Government's commitments and policy action that boosted pensions, benefits, tax credits and wages and removed some of the barriers to work have had an impact, with child and pensioner poverty significantly lower than in 1997. Other policy interventions that should be welcomed include a focus on more equal health outcomes and commitment to the idea of a living wage, although when that was put forward in South Ayrshire by Labour, the SNP Tory administration voted it down. We need more investment and income maximisation, statutory commitments to tackle child poverty and improved access to debt solutions.
Labour made huge strides in government, both in Westminster and at Holyrood, to tackle youth unemployment in Scotland. Again, the clock has been turned back. Youth unemployment is rising fast. Behind these figures is a generation of young Scots, rich in talent, full of potential, with a hunger to work. Yesterday’s announcement in the autumn statement was too little, too late. It will be next April before it even kicks in, which has meant two years of inaction, and equates to £121 million a year, a fraction of the £600 million this year alone which Labour would spend on a youth jobs fund through repeating the bank bonus levy.
Dr Whiteford
Will the hon. Lady join me in welcoming the initiatives of the Scottish Government to ensure that every 16 to 19-year-old in Scotland who is not in full-time education will have a training place or an apprenticeship or a job?
Sandra Osborne
I would very much welcome any measures that are taken in Scotland on youth unemployment, but it does not help when the SNP Government choke off opportunity by cutting funding for the country’s colleges. I attended the graduation ceremony at Ayr college the other week and I was very impressed by the students’ achievements, but the level of cuts that the college was facing—10% this year and 20% over the next two years—was very depressing. There have already been job losses and the college has been told to concentrate on 16 to 19-year-olds. That is fine, except that it takes places away from adult learners.
I received all my education, such as it is, as an adult, and I want young people as they grow older to have cradle-to-grave education, not just between the ages of 16 and 19. That is also needed for the economy.
I refer now to research from the Centre for Regional Economic and Social Research at Sheffield university. It calculates that the headline total of 2.6 million men and women on incapacity benefits is set to be cut by nearly 1 million by 2014. Most of these will be existing claimants who will lose their entitlement. The report shows that, because of the reforms, 600,000 are set to be pushed out of the benefits system altogether, forcing a big increase in reliance on other household members for financial support.
The researchers also show that by far the largest impact will fall on the older industrial areas of the north, Scotland and Wales, where local economies have been struggling for years to cope with job loss and where the prospects of former claimants finding work are weakest. Glasgow looks set to be hit 10 times harder than, for example, Kingston upon Thames. In common with many of my colleagues here, these are just the types of areas that we represent where it has been very difficult to recover from industrial decline in the past. This is not going to help.
Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)
Does my hon. Friend accept that it is not just the loss of individual or family income, but the loss of a significant amount of spending power within already deprived communities which will have an impact on the wider community and not just on the individual family?
Sandra Osborne
These issues affect the whole community, which is why in many ways high unemployment is a false economy. It would be far better invested in the communities. Professor Steve Fothergill, who co-authored the report, said:
“The large numbers that will be pushed off incapacity benefits over the next two to three years are entirely the result of changes in benefit rules. The reduction does not mean that there is currently widespread fraud, or that the health problems and disabilities are anything less than real.”
He then goes on to say that
“the estimates show that the Coalition Government is presiding over a national welfare reform that will impact principally on individuals and communities outside its own political heartlands.”
The Minister will be painfully aware that Scotland certainly meets that description.
I do not have time this afternoon to go into the detail of the Government’s Welfare Reform Bill, but behind the stated intention of rolling up most means-tested benefits into a universal credit and making work pay, there are significant increases in the conditions attached to entitlement, and draconian sanctions for those who fail to meet these conditions. Welfare benefits cuts of £18 billion over the next three years, in conjunction with the proposals in the Welfare Reform Bill, will have a hugely negative effect on Scotland’s poorest communities, families and individuals. These measures will be across the whole of the UK, but will also cut across a whole raft of devolved responsibilities. They deserve the united resistance of Scottish MPs and MSPs.
Attention must be refocused on to the privileges and lifestyles of the affluent and rich as much as the more disadvantaged. The Government must tackle the banks and fuel companies rather than focus on hitting public sector pensions.
Recently my constituency Labour party launched a plan locally at a public meeting in Ayr: Labour’s five-point plan for jobs. We heard a compelling argument for why this is needed from STUC deputy Stephen Boyd. He said that in Scotland we have a huge full-time employment deficit; that is the deficit that the Tories do not want to talk about. There are more than 150,000 people who want to work in full-time jobs but are currently unemployed. There are also the underemployed, and the economically inactive but wanting to work. There is a total of almost half a million Scots who want to be in full-time employment but are not. Jobseeker’s allowance claimants in East Ayrshire are up 86% on last year, and they are up 65% in South Ayrshire. These are frightening figures. The number of claimants in the last six months in these areas is up 300% and 400%.
Mr Alan Reid (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
I am grateful to the hon. Lady for giving way. I sat through her speech, which contained a lot of criticism of the Government, expecting her to come forward with solutions, but they have been lacking. For all of these spending projects that she has talked about, will she tell us by how much she wants to increase Government spending? What taxes will she put up to find the money? The only source of revenue she indicated was a bankers’ levy bonus tax; will she tell us how much that would raise and the rate at which it would be set?
Sandra Osborne
I do not have the figures to hand, but I actually referred to a number of policy initiatives that could be taken and were taken by the last Labour Government. I could go back into my speech and read out Labour’s five point plan for jobs, but I am aware that other Members would like to speak and I was genuinely trying to curtail my remarks. I will let the hon. Member know about it later.
I firmly believe that there is more than one Scotland, just as there is more than one Britain. In the end, how you see Scotland depends on your perspective, your politics and your priorities. To paraphrase Nye Bevan, socialism is a language of priorities, just a very different set of priorities. The trouble with the SNP is that, for all its rhetorical nationalism, there remains a single priority: independence. Today should be a day for getting away from the tired, endless wrangling over constitutional issues and the protracted debate over the long-time-coming independence referendum. It should be a day for getting away from the SNP’s dangerous lottery, playing with people’s jobs, incomes and life chances, ignoring all of the warnings, crossing their fingers and hoping for the best. Today is a day for concentrating on the real Scotland—a country of huge achievement and potential, and a country rich in diverse cultures, but a country that also knows the reality of poverty and the risk of increased poverty to come unless it gets the political leadership and policies it needs for a better way forward.
Ann McKechin (Glasgow North) (Lab)
It is a great pleasure to serve under your chairmanship this afternoon, Mr Robertson, and may I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne) on securing this important debate and providing an opportunity for all of us to reflect that the scale of the problem of poverty in our own country deserves much more time and attention than it receives. In a month when it was reported that the number of pauper funerals in Scotland exceeded 5,500 in the past year, and when a report from the university of Sheffield Hallam stated that Glasgow was the worst area in the United Kingdom for incidences of hunger, it is truly remarkable that we have not one but two Administrations who barely feel able to mention the subject in any of their pronouncements—one largely because of their indifference, and the other in sole pursuit of their one goal, so that if anyone dares make a critical reflection they are talking Scotland down. I do not believe that either serves our country well. Only when we start to talk openly again about poverty will we be able to rise to the challenge.
I would like to focus my remarks today on a couple of points that I believe must be urgently reconsidered by the Government if we do not wish the poverty figures to rise even further. I will start on housing, and in particular the impending changes in housing benefit. The majority on this form of benefit are not on unemployment benefit, but they do represent fairly accurately those who are on the lowest level of income. Shelter Scotland reports that this year only one in eight of all housing benefit claimants is unemployed. The rest includes pensioners, carers and disabled people unable to work. In Scotland, about 19% of people in receipt of local housing allowance are in employment.
The vast majority of those in receipt of the benefit in Scotland are living in rented social housing, and a good percentage of those who are renting privately are occupying former social housing. Prior to introducing the new regulations, which will commence in stages from this year until 2013, the UK Government conducted absolutely no evaluation of the rented housing sector in Scotland, be it the availability in each local authority area of multi-occupancy property or the availability of one- bedroom houses. If I asked anyone living in Scotland, however, to take even a wild guess about what may or may not be available I would imagine just about everyone could anticipate that, outside the major cities, there would be very little multi-occupancy households and that most social housing in Scotland consisted of houses with two bedrooms or more.
Lord Freud in the other place apparently believes in some imaginary world where suitable property will spring from the bowels of the earth in a wonderful free market to allow housing benefit recipients to comply with the new regime rather than live in what he believes is “luxury”. Unfortunately, I remain unconvinced, and so do the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities; the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations; Shelter; the Scottish Government; and many other informed groups who I have met over the last year to discuss this issue.
If I take just the change in the age threshold for claiming the single room rate, which will be increased from 25 to 35 in April next year, according to figures I requested from the House of Commons Library in January, there are only, for example, 20 multi-occupancy registered homes in the entire Angus council area, but, according to an official answer from the Scottish Government, as of last year there were 100 single people aged 25 to 34 years in receipt of local housing allowance in that area. In North Ayrshire the figures are even worse. There are seven houses of multiple occupancy and 280 people aged 25 to 34 years in receipt of LHA. Where are these people—about 7,500 throughout Scotland—expected to stay?
Mrs McGuire
Does my hon. Friend also accept that the pressure on multiple-occupancy housing is even greater in a city such as Stirling that has a university population? Those who look to conform to the new housing regulations will find themselves in even worse straits than she has indicated in other areas.
Ann McKechin
My right hon. Friend is absolutely correct—that is a point I am about to make. I, too, represent an area that has a university community, and we continually have difficulties about multi-occupancy. Again, the UK Government have completely failed to consider new regulations put in place as a result of legislation that has gone through the Scottish Parliament.
Many local authorities and social landlords have progressively moved away from multi-occupancy lets due to problems with management and its unpopularity with other tenants and communities. In Angus, the difference between the rental level for a one-bedroom home and a shared home rate is £20.77 a week. For people who are unlucky enough to live in rural Aberdeenshire, it is £49.61 a week, because they are sitting in the midst of an oil economy, with rentals to match. Inevitably, people will be pushed into our cities, regardless of where their job is, in a desperate effort to find accommodation.
As I have mentioned, the UK Government have given no thought as to how local communities may feel about the expansion of multi-occupancy housing in their areas. I know from experience in my constituency that there have been examples of the dumping of people in bed-and-breakfast accommodation from other local authority areas, because those areas had no or very few such places available. I can only imagine where all those hundreds of people in north Ayrshire, for example, will have to go—I think that most of them will end up in Glasgow.
Dr Whiteford
The hon. Lady is making some important points about the housing situation. Will she reflect on the situation for pensioners who might also be affected by the under-occupancy rules that are coming in and the fact that suitable one-bedroom properties are simply not available, particularly those on a flat level for people with mobility issues?
Ann McKechin
The hon. Lady makes a good point. I know that that matter is not currently covered in the regulations proposed by the Government. However, should there be any further expansion, we would be looking at something close to a total collapse of social housing, because of the sheer numbers of people, particularly pensioners, who are living alone in properties with two or more bedrooms.
One change due in 2013 is that housing benefit will be restricted for working-age claimants in the social rented sector to those who are occupying a larger property than their household size. Do the Government know how many will be impacted by that change? Why do I bother to ask them, because they have no desire to find out?
It has been estimated from the family resources survey that Scotland-wide there are approximately 100,000 households in the social rented sector in receipt of housing benefit where the accommodation is currently under-occupied. We do not, however, know how many of those are rented to retired tenants compared with those of working age. Glasgow Housing Association, which is Scotland’s largest social landlord, has estimated that roughly 13% of their entire housing stock will be affected by just that one change alone. That represents thousands of tenants in just one city in our country.
Such a change may occur simply because an adult child leaves home, even if the family still have children of school age. A family may be forced to move out of a property that they have lived in for many years and in some instances to move many miles from the community in which they are settled—or they might fall into rent arrears, or they could just eat less, or they could not heat their home. That is the reality of the real choices that thousands of low-income families will now face.
Mr Reid
I share some of the concerns that the hon. Lady is voicing. However, it is important to point out that the regulations have not yet been drawn up, so she cannot predict that such things will happen until we see the regulations. I certainly hope that they will be framed sensibly to take into account the issues that she is raising.
Ann McKechin
The proposals are currently in the Welfare Reform Bill. I hope that he and the Minister will think again and will persuade their colleagues in the Department for Work and Pensions and Lord Freud in the other place, who seems to be utterly resistant to making any changes to the clauses relating to those draconian measures. Hon. Members will remember the chaos caused by the implementation of the poll tax, and the consequences we faced for many years due to the scale of the arrears that built up and the misery that was heaped on our poorest communities. Perhaps the Minister will explain why his party has never learned the lesson of what occurs when a Government implement unplanned, arbitrary hits on those with the least resources to cope.
Coming back to my comments about this month’s report on hunger in the city that I am proud to represent, Paul Mosley, professor of economics at Sheffield university, said that the number of people using the Scotcash community bank service who struggled to buy food in the previous week was far higher in Scotland than in any other area of the UK. He said:
“In other cities outside of Glasgow the figure was 1% to 2%... In other words, there were some people whose poverty was so bad they were also in food poverty and sometimes didn’t have enough food to give to the children to eat. But in Glasgow the proportion was something like 10%.”
Mosley said that the findings supported suggestions that areas of Glasgow suffered a depth of poverty that
“you don’t encounter in other parts of the UK”.
That depth of poverty is no surprise to me, and I am sure it will be no surprise to you either, Mr Robertson. No other part of western Europe witnessed such an intense and rapid deindustrialisation in the 1970s and 1980s, in a city that already had a long history of poverty. I am in no doubt that it will take many years to reverse, but I have always believed that it is possible, if we are prepared to put in the necessary commitment and resources. In recent years, figures on absolute and relative poverty in Scotland have flatlined, but we now face a really tough challenge. Are we prepared to witness the reversal of the advances made during the first years of this century or are we willing to organise our priorities so that we can protect the poorest and do more to improve their lives? That is the real challenge that we face in our country—not the endless debates on constitutional niceties, but what kind of country do we actually want to be.
Just yesterday, as my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock correctly mentioned, it was calculated that the Government’s freeze on tax credits and related benefits will put a further 100,000 children throughout the UK below the poverty line. I look forward to hearing the Minister explain in detail how his Government will now meet their legally binding targets on child poverty reduction. I am also interested to know when he last discussed poverty or any related issues with his counterparts in the Scottish Government. If that was not recently, perhaps he could undertake to make a real St Andrew’s day pledge to make the eradication of poverty his priority.
Dame Anne Begg (Aberdeen South) (Lab)
It will be difficult to follow my two colleagues, who have explained the scourge of poverty in terms of the proportion of people living in poverty in Scotland and the shame that that brings on us as a nation. I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne) on securing this debate.
I shall confine my comments to a group of people who, by definition, find a much higher proportion of themselves living in poverty—namely, those who are disabled or have a disability. All the problems that, as we have already heard, face families living in poverty tend to be amplified if one of the members of those families happens to have a disability. We know that 21% of families who have one person with a disability living with them are living in poverty compared with 16% of the general population. That figure increases for children: 25% of children living in families with a disabled person live in poverty compared with 18% of children living in families with no one who is disabled.
The concern that I want to get over to the Minister, and to which I hope he will respond, is that those figures are bad enough, but the actions of this Government are about to make matters far worse. Despite the impression given in the tabloids by stories of benefit scroungers and people who have languished on incapacity benefit or disabled benefits for years, employment among disabled people had actually improved over the last 10 years of the Labour Government. The employment gap between those disabled and those non-disabled in 2002 was 36%. By 2010, by the time the Labour party lost power, that gap was down to 29% and all the indicators were that it was improving, so many disabled people were in work. However, it is still the case that anyone with a disability is far less likely to be in work than those who do not have a disability, and therefore dependent on benefits.
What happens to the benefits system? What changes will be made to save the £18 billion that the Government are trying to strip out of the welfare system? Those changes will impact even more directly on those who are the most vulnerable—those who have a disability. What is of concern is not just that individuals and their families will face reduced incomes but, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) said, the reduction in the money that is available to be spent in those communities and the fact that the communities themselves will become even poorer than they are at the moment.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock mentioned the report from Sheffield Hallam university, written by Christina Beatty and Steve Fothergill, called “Incapacity Benefit Reform: the local, regional and national impact”. That report makes incredibly interesting reading. It shows not only that there is a concentration of people with disabilities who are living on disability benefits, whether that is incapacity benefit, employment and support allowance or disability allowance, but that it correlates exactly to the areas of high unemployment and the areas of industrial decline. So it comes as no great surprise that, of the top 20 districts where the share of adults claiming incapacity benefit is the highest, three of them are in Scotland. Glasgow comes in at 12.3%, but is followed closely by Inverclyde and West Dunbartonshire. In the bottom 10 districts, of the areas with the least number of people on incapacity benefit not a single one is in Scotland and that in itself acts as a stark reminder that there are areas in Scotland, particularly west central Scotland, that have suffered not just the depression and lack of jobs caused by deindustrialisation but, resulting from that, an increase in the number of people who not only suffer ill health and disability but, as a consequence, are claiming benefit. Any cuts to those benefits will fall particularly heavily on those areas.
The figures in the work that Christina Beatty and Steve Fothergill have done are UK-wide, so we must assume that 10% of those people live in Scotland. Those figures show that, as a result of Government changes already announced, in Scotland alone, 97,000 fewer people will be claiming incapacity benefit. Even more worryingly, 58,000 will be removed from benefits all together. How will that happen? The last Labour Government had already introduced changes to reform incapacity benefit and to move people on to the employment and support allowance. The new Government have speeded up that move and have also cut down on the amount of money to be spent. That is where a great deal of the savings will come from.
Dr Whiteford
The hon. Lady’s constituency, like my own, was part of the pilot scheme that trialled the new work capability assessment. My view is that it has not been working and instead has been causing great anxiety and distress to disabled people. More importantly, the successful appeal rate is out of all proportion to any system that is working. Something like 70% of appeals are proving successful, where people have support from advocacy agencies. That system should go back to the drawing board, but I am also concerned that the burden will start falling even more so on unpaid carers and other family members for people who have been taken out of the system. Does the hon. Lady share my concerns on that?
Dame Anne Begg
Those concerns are shared by all of us. It has been very difficult to get robust figures about the numbers who are being migrated from incapacity benefit on to employment and support allowance, and how many of them will fall out of the benefits system all together or find themselves on jobseeker’s allowance as an alternative. The early indication from the pilot that took place in both Aberdeen and Burnley would suggest that about 30% of those on incapacity benefit will move to JSA. That one single move is immediately a loss of £20, or slightly more, a week for that family. We do not know whether those figures are robust but we do know that, for new claimants, it is far less than that. Part of the reason why the tabloid press has managed to create the impression that there are lots of people languishing on incapacity benefit or disability benefit who do not deserve it is that they conflate the proportions who are new claimants getting the benefit with those already on the benefit but who have been migrated across. Potentially, 30% will be losing £20 or more a week.
We also know that the Welfare Reform Bill proposes to limit contributory employment and support allowance to one year. In areas such as mine and the one represented by the hon. Member for Banff and Buchan (Dr Whiteford), where it is more likely that people will live in a household with some income, because unemployment is relatively low, so a partner, husband or wife might be working, those people will lose benefits altogether because they will not qualify for the income-related benefit that would replace it. That is why 58,000 are likely to fall out of the benefits system completely. These are people who have paid into the system all their lives. They thought that, when things turned difficult for them, when something happened and they were not able to work anymore, the welfare state would be there for them and national insurance would work as the name suggests—as an insurance that they would get that contributory benefit. This Government have decided that that is not good enough and that this group will qualify only for employment and support allowance for a year. In a year, someone might have managed only to get a diagnosis. They might have only just started their cancer treatment, they might still be getting worse but not be bad enough to be in the support group, with a degenerative neurological condition that has just been diagnosed. After a year, their money will stop if they are in the work-related activity group of ESA.
Dame Anne Begg
Until they retire, which is what the position is at the moment. If they are in the support group, they will keep it for ever.
The hon. Gentleman’s intervention has given me the opportunity to raise something that he can discuss with his colleagues in the Department for Work and Pensions. The way that the national insurance system works is that if someone has not made a NI contribution for the previous two years, then they do not get the contributory benefit. I tabled a written question to ask what happened if someone had been in the work-related activity group for two years and then got worse, particularly if they had a degenerative illness, and found themselves in the support group. They would not have the national insurance contribution to go back on to the contributory element. Would they be able to get the ESA? The reply from the Minister was unequivocal—yes, they would be able to go back on to contributory ESA if they had moved from the WRAG to the support group after two years.
However, in correspondence with an official, some doubt has been cast on whether that is indeed the case. It is not clear from the Welfare Reform Bill, and it is certainly not clear from the debates around the Bill, whether someone who has been on WRAG for two years will get their contributory ESA back again should they get worse. This is very important for people with conditions such as multiple Sclerosis and Parkinson’s. If someone has a really bad episode and goes straight into the support group, they will be able to keep their contributory ESA for the rest of their working life, whereas, if they have a slowly progressing disease and go into WRAG for a couple of years, but then end up just as ill and disabled as the other person, they do not get it back. It seems unfair and arbitrary. The Government must get this right and be clear about it, or large numbers of people, potentially those with some of the most profound disabilities and ill health, will be disadvantaged simply because they fall the wrong side of the line when they go for their work capability assessment.
Mrs McGuire
Is that not why it is faintly ridiculous, at this point in the legislative cycle, when the Welfare Reform Bill has completed its passage through the House of Commons and has completed most of its stages in the House of Lords, that we do not yet know what the regulations will say on something that could have a massive impact on the lives, not just of disabled people but of the poorest people in communities in Scotland?
Dame Anne Begg
My right hon. Friend is absolutely right. One of my concerns as Chair of the Select Committee is, when there is parliamentary scrutiny of those regulations, to make sure that there are no unintended consequences. I hope that this is an unintended consequence on the Government’s part—I do not think that they would be so hard-hearted to be that unfair, and I hope that the Minister will acknowledge that they realise that, in some areas, they have simply got it wrong, because they are trying to take money away from people who have paid into the system all their life.
I am conscious of the time, so I will not say a great deal more. We will move from disability living allowance to the new personal independence payment, and the Government say that they are going to cut 20% from that budget. I could go on at length about that but, in summary, all those things taken together will mean that the income of the poorest people in our communities—those who have the hardest time because of ill health or disability—will be drastically cut. They will bear the brunt of many cuts in Government spending. They are the ones least able to cope, and it will be their communities—if the money had come into their hands, at least they would spend it in local shops—who suffer. Those shops and facilities will close, and those areas, which already suffer the highest incidence of poverty, will be hit particularly badly. The Opposition think that that is unfair. It is unjust, and I urge the Government to look again.
John Robertson (in the Chair)
Before I call the next speaker, may I tell hon. Members that the debate will end at 4.12 pm? I shall call the first Front-Bench speaker at 3.52 pm at the latest.
Mr Tom Clarke (Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne) both on obtaining such an important debate on St Andrew’s day and on her excellent speech.
My hon. Friend challenged us to speak up for the poorest and most vulnerable, and we already have enough evidence to show that poverty in Scotland is rising. It is therefore appropriate to address that very serious matter. We have seen increasing youth unemployment and, right up to yesterday, reckless cuts to incapacity benefits, disability living allowances, winter fuel payments and the rest. Earlier this month, The Guardian reported that 500,000 people will be forced off incapacity benefit. Scotland will be one of the worst-hit areas. Child poverty, youth unemployment and fuel poverty have all increased, and are set to rise further. As I said, yesterday was no help.
A Government who promised
“not to balance the books on the backs of the poorest”
have barely responded to that pledge. They admitted yesterday that it will take another two years, with all the pain but without any gain. Youth unemployment, which is a scar over Scotland, stands at a quite remarkable figure of 1.02 million—the highest ever recorded. There will be a lost generation of young people, just as in the ’80s and Mrs Thatcher’s time, which will lead to broken homes, broken relationships, dashed hopes and broken dreams.
I would not for one second, particularly as I am asking all my colleagues to reflect on what youth unemployment means, condone the riots that took place in England. Indeed, I am pleased that they did not extend to Scotland. However, it would be naive in the extreme to continue with those figures and statistics—the reality in Scotland—and not expect young people to articulate their views. We were first warned about that as long ago as the war, when Sir William Beveridge wrote:
“If full employment is not won and kept, no liberties are secure, for to many they will not seem worth while.”
We can barely say that we were not warned.
Since 2010, JSA claimants rose in most deprived areas of my constituency—I underline that—from 26.3% to 28.1%, against a UK average of 3.9%. We are asking what the response is. What is the coalition prepared to do? The whole picture is quite unacceptable, and certainly in my constituency. I will meet local officials from the Department for Work and Pensions on Friday to examine in detail what is happening to people in my constituency who are unemployed.
Unemployment, I think Opposition Members agree, is not just a statistic. Save the Children said that
“children living in low income households are nearly three times more likely to suffer mental health problems than the affluent.”
The link between life expectancy and income is well documented. These are real people with real lives that are about to be wrecked unless we rescue them in time. In my constituency, there are high numbers for unemployment and for people suffering from anxiety and depression, and—this is consistent with what my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg) so eloquently said—those people often find that those things go together. That increases the number of DLA claimants. I therefore challenge the heart of the Government’s economic policy. Taking people out of poverty is a sensible thing to do. It is a moral responsibility, but it is also economically correct. How long are we prepared to go on paying people to be unemployed—3 million of them—and, as we did in Mrs Thatcher’s time, ask those who pay taxes to make that contribution? Taking people out of poverty is one of the biggest challenges that we face, particularly in Scotland.
Recently, my colleagues have raised the issue of fuel poverty again and again. Three thousand people in the UK die from fuel poverty every year, which is more than the number of Britons killed on the roads. In Scotland, there are nearly 1 million homes in fuel poverty. What have the Government done, and what should we urge them to do? Their policies have led to increases in fuel prices, and they have cut winter fuel payments and even cut the tariff for solar energy—hardly an approach to make Scotland a greener country.
Mr Alan Reid
The right hon. Gentleman referred to the cut in the solar energy tariff. If the Government had not made that change, it would have meant far higher electricity bills for everyone, so his argument is inconsistent.
Mr Clarke
I wish I had more time to develop an argument that I think the hon. Gentleman heard when I was fortunate enough to secure a debate on energy in the House a year or two ago. Indeed, on the subject of energy, that leads me very nicely to the next point that I wish to make. How long are we in Scotland and in Britain prepared to wait for six companies—for all the world, they look like a cartel to me, and I do not see the regulation that we expect from the regulators—to act? How long are we prepared to put up with this? Even last week, people were told by Ministers, “Well, what you do is change to another company.” We all know what happens then: if we change to another company, they put up their prices, too, and they do so again and again, which is wholly unacceptable.
Mr Clarke
My purpose is to make conversions, Mr. Robertson, and I have been able to do so.
In common with my hon. Friend for Aberdeen South, I would like to discuss disability because many of the people we are thinking about, many of those who have made representations to us and, indeed, many of those who are unable to make representations are those who might be considered either disabled or the family or friends of disabled people. Contact a Family told us that 52% of families with a disabled child are at risk of experiencing poverty. That is no surprise when we know that it costs three times as much to bring up a disabled child than a child without disability. The income of families with a disabled child averages £15,000, which is 25.5% below the UK mean. Barnado’s told us recently that only 16% of mothers of disabled children are able to work compared with 60% of mothers generally.
I am glad that my right hon. Friend for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) is present, because she brought the issue of the mobility component to the attention of the House. Yesterday, I was happy to see that after battle, including debates in this place, the Government announced that they were retreating on their intention to take the mobility component of DLA from people who live in residential homes. The original proposal was an outrage that should never have been considered and it caused a great deal of unhappiness among a large number of people and their families. That was unacceptable. As my right hon. Friend has said, however, the announcement was not made in this House, where it should have been, but in The Times.
For all the reasons that my right hon. and hon. Friends have given, I strongly support the attempt by my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock to focus on the issue of poverty. It is St. Andrew’s day and we are concerned about Scotland. It can be, and will be, a great Scotland. Of late, I have been fortunate to invite new companies into my constituency, and I welcome that and those entrepreneurs’ enthusiasm. However, they are entitled to more encouragement than they are getting, but so far the Government have not shown any lead on that. Today, I believe we are speaking for Scotland, and I believe that Scotland is listening.
John Robertson (in the Chair)
Before I call Mrs McGuire, I call her attention to the fact that the Front-Bench contributions will begin at 3.52 pm.
Mrs Anne McGuire (Stirling) (Lab)
I conscious of that, and I would not like to fall out with you, Mr Robertson. This is the first time that I have been in this interesting power position with you, and I will make sure that I obey your orders.
I would also like to add my congratulations to my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne) for initiating this debate in Westminster Hall. I only want to make a short contribution.
The emphasis today has been on welfare issues, to which I will return if I have the time, but I want us to recognise what poverty means for many people, particularly children. A group launch by anti-poverty campaigners in Glasgow clearly identified the fact that children and young people who are growing up in poverty suffer from a range of disadvantages that other children do not experience. They were far less likely to be involved in leisure activities than other children because their families could not pay for them. They were three times less likely to play a musical instrument— something that is about enhancing people’s lifestyle, but children in poverty do not have the same access to that advantage. It is interesting to note that, given the emphasis on football in Glasgow, the group also highlighted the fact that young people from better-off households were four times more likely to be involved in a football club than those children from poorer households. That sort of hidden poverty, which we do not always emphasise in debates such as this one, is the real price that many families are now paying.
The hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr. Reid) asked us, “What would you do?” I would actually like to flip that coin back to him and say that it is not just what we would do, but what they have done that is making the significant difference to people in Scotland, for example the decision to reduce the Sure Start maternity grant to the first child only. That grant was of great benefit to many poorer families. The Government have also frozen child benefit and other benefits, even those in-work benefits, have been uprated according to the consumer prices index rather than according to the retail prices index. They have also removed discretionary tax credits, such as the baby element, which means the loss of £545 a year per family. According to the House of Commons figures, a baby born into a low-income family from April 2011 will be about £1,500 worse off compared with a sibling born into the same family before April 2010. That is the sum lost from a family where every penny counts.
Frankly, those supporting the coalition Government have to accept that it is not a question of what we would do, but what they have done. They need to answer whether they have made life better or worse for the poorest members of our society. As I look around my constituency and I look at others areas of Scotland, I think we must make the judgment that the coalition Government have made life worse for many of the poorest people in our communities. If there is anything that we need to give testimony to that, surely it must be the fact that there are now more people in cities in Scotland relying on handouts and food parcels than ever before. I never thought that I would see families having to rely on emergency food rations from organisations that were set up specifically for that purpose. What sort of civilised society are we that allows a family to be so poor that it cannot feed its own children? That is my condemnation of the way in which the Government operate.
I want to put a question particularly to those Lib Dem members of the coalition who I know are good people. They need to look back at their own history and see exactly where they came from. Go back and look at some of the great developments of the 19th century, such as those made by the Frys, the Rowntrees and the Cadburys. They took those actions because they recognised the link between poverty and lack of aspiration, between unemployment and people being unable to live a decent life. Over the Christmas recess, I hope that some of those Lib Dems will have time to reflect on what they are doing to collude in a situation that is making life much worse for many people in Scotland.
Mr Reid
I am grateful to the right hon. Lady for giving way. The economic situation is grim, and none of us wants to see people living in poverty. I came along to this debate because I wanted to hear what suggestions Labour Members had for doing things differently. So far, I have not heard any, and I would be grateful if the right hon. Lady could actually tell us what Labour would do differently if it were in power.
Mrs McGuire
Let me explain what we did differently. We did things differently over 13 years when child poverty decreased from 27% to 20%. We made it a legal obligation on Government that they should reduce child poverty. I will tell the hon. Gentleman what we would not have done. We would not have sacrificed the poor as the Government are now sacrificing them. I know that the hon. Gentleman is a good person, and he must ask himself that question during the Christmas recess when he might have wanted to think of other things. We have seen a deterioration in the standards in which the poorest in Scotland have to live their lives – 850,000 people, and rising, are living in fuel poverty, according to Consumer Focus. Finally, may I say in this debate that poverty is not just about money, although money is important? Poverty creates an environment where, if children cannot eat a breakfast in the morning, they cannot go to school and learn; where they are excluded from the company of their peers, because they cannot afford to enjoy that company; and where they cannot go to a school dance or participate in sport. Worst of all, it creates an environment where many of them suffer not only from financial, educational and health poverty, but from a poverty of ambition. Frankly, that is dangerously close to the legacy that this Government are going to give hundreds of thousands of children in Scotland, unless they start to reflect on what they are doing and deal with it quickly.
Mr William Bain (Glasgow North East) (Lab)
It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship for the first time, Mr Robertson, and to reply from the Opposition Front Bench to this important debate.
I pay tribute to my hon. Friend the Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne) for securing this debate and for speaking with such passion and commitment about the effects that material inequality, lack of money, lack of resources and lack of opportunity have on the quality of life of her constituents and many thousands of people across Scotland. She referred in her speech to a historical figure—Nye Bevan, of course. Today, it might be fitting to recall the words of another historical figure, former US President Franklin Roosevelt, who once said:
“The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have little.”
That is what the Government are failing to do in its policies today.
I also pay tribute to the contribution from my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin), who spoke movingly about the impact that housing benefit changes and lack of money are having in driving up levels of food poverty in Glasgow, and also to my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg) and my right hon. Friends the Members for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke) and for Stirling (Mrs McGuire), who spoke with great passion and eloquence about the effects of deindustrialisation in Scotland and the damaging effects of the Government’s reforms of disability, housing and sickness benefits. My right hon. Friend the Member for Stirling impressed the House this afternoon with her historical sweep and with the notion that she very ably tied between equality and liberty—the fact that they go together and that one simply does not exist without the other.
I recently had the privilege of attending a briefing arranged by the Resolution Foundation, which is hosting the Commission on Living Standards. The presentation gave some staggering statistics from the foundation’s ongoing work. There is an increasing dislocation between growth and living standards. In the past three decades, for every £1 of growth generated in our economy, just 12p is going into wages in the lower half of the income scale, which is a fall of a quarter. Those trends have been exacerbated by the squeeze on jobs and the squeeze through increased taxes and lower tax credits that have been in the Chancellor’s Budgets so far and, sadly, in the autumn statement yesterday.
From that event, there also emerged three themes that are necessary to drive an increase in living standards and reductions in poverty in coming years: full employment, the importance of income transfers—including the tax credits system—and rising wages. The foundation has estimated that the squeeze on living standards that is being imposed by this Government—the steepest since the 1920s—means that to make good the gap, the level of the minimum wage would have to rise to £6.29 per hour by 2015. That is the extent of the squeeze that is impacting on people in this country today. The words of the US economist Lane Kenworthy are very important, reflecting that income transfers—the tax credits system—have been critical in this country and across the western world to seeing an improvement of the living standards of those in the lower half of the income distribution scale.
I also want to endorse some of the findings of UNICEF Scotland’s recent report, which points out the damaging effects of failing to tackle asset-based inequality. The Government have scrapped the child trust fund and introduced an inadequate replacement in the form of junior ISAs, and we will see damaging effects for young people in their failing to build up that nest egg of savings that would help them go to college or university, to start a job and to pay for the necessary expenses for a good start in life.
The key to tackling poverty and to seeing a fairer distribution of wealth in our society is to increase levels of good jobs in our economy and to aim for full employment. Yesterday, the Office for Budget Responsibility downgraded its forecasts for levels of employment throughout this Parliament. It revealed that 710,000 public sector workers will be thrown on to the dole queues in this Parliament. Overall, unemployment will surge by a further 500,000, destroying the lives of people who are claiming benefits when they could be providing services and paying taxes instead.
Scotland will suffer hugely through the absurd economic theories that underpin such devastating choices. As a result of the Chancellor’s failure to change course on public spending and to introduce a proper plan for jobs and growth, Scotland is likely to suffer from rising unemployment, lower growth and the biggest attack on the living standards of ordinary people since the 1940s. The Chancellor said yesterday that he would like to tackle the causes of poverty, but he has slashed support for hard-pressed Scots families who are burdened by big rises in child care costs.
This week, the Social Market Foundation stated, in its report entitled “The Parent Trap”, that average families face an increase in child care costs of more than £600, a rise of up to 62%, which is more than the cost of a family Christmas for average families in Scotland. Yesterday, the Government failed to cut VAT to boost consumer confidence and failed to increase demand amid slumping growth.
Sandra Osborne
My hon. Friend is answering some of the questions of the hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid), who seemed to think that the Labour party had no alternative proposals to put forward. I am pleased to hear my hon. Friend telling the House about what we would do if we had the opportunity.
Mr Bain
My hon. Friend is entirely right. Yesterday, the OBR’s figures revealed that if we had followed the public spending plans of my right hon. Friend the Member for Edinburgh South West (Mr Darling), borrowing would be £37 billion less. There is an alternative—based around growth and job creation—that would not have visited the damaging effects of increased poverty and inequality which this Government are waging on the people of Scotland.
Mr Reid
None of us wants to see poverty or inequality, but the only solutions that the hon. Gentleman has brought forward are to cut taxes and to increase public spending. Please will he tell us where the money would come from to do all that, without getting the country even deeper into debt and the mess that his Government left behind?
Mr Bain
Thankfully, there are more enlightened Governments in Europe. For example, the newly elected Socialist-led Government of Denmark, who have introduced a stimulus package, have seen bond rates lower that those of the United Kingdom and have entirely defeated the arguments of the right-wing parties in Denmark, which predicted that bond rates would rise if a Socialist-led Government introduced such a stimulus package. The reality does not bear out the hon. Gentleman’s point.
Mr Bain
It is very clear that this Government are borrowing to cut, not borrowing to grow. The entire theory that the Chancellor has drawn on from some of the extremes of right-wing economics in America in the 1980s and 1990s—essentially, that Governments should shrink and shrivel the public sector and that the private sector will take up all the slack—has simply been destroyed by what the OBR published yesterday. That theory does not work, and it is causing increased poverty and inequality in our country. The hon. Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) should disown it today.
With both Governments—the one here and the one in Edinburgh—simply not having done enough about youth unemployment, we have a rate of youth unemployment across the UK of 20%, but it is even higher in Scotland, at 21.3%. Nothing speaks more to this Government’s failure of ambition to cut child poverty than yesterday’s cruel grab by the Chancellor on the promised uplift on child tax credits and working tax credits. For the coalition parties to slash the tax credits of low and middle-income mums and children in Scotland at a time when the real value of wages declining by 3.5% this year, as revealed by the Office for National Statistics last week—is an act of brutal contempt for the plight that the poorest are facing, with spending cuts that are too far, and too fast for ordinary families to bear.
In 2009-10, 153,000 families in work in Scotland received working tax credit and child tax credit, and this helped 250,000 children in Scotland. People in Scotland cannot see how it will be fair to snatch £1.2 billion in tax credits from low and middle earners while the Government have raised the bank balance sheet levy by a paltry £300 million in the same autumn statement. They will wonder how the Prime Minister can ever again have the brass neck to claim that we are all in this together. Scottish families will lose the extra £110 per child that they were promised in the Budget this year and expected to receive next year. Freezing the working tax credit will cut working families’ income by an additional £100.
As the Resolution Foundation established yesterday, more than three quarters of the burden in new cuts in tax credits is faced by people in the lower half of the income scale, with those in the top 10% simply meeting 3% of that burden. Total tax credit cuts next year will amount to £2.9 billion, a tenth of the entire tax credit expenditure. This afternoon the Institute for Fiscal Studies has given its verdict on the Chancellor’s squeeze on the living standards of ordinary people: average incomes will fall by 7.4% between 2009 and 2030. Based on the OBR’s own figures, it has calculated that families face a slump in the value of their household disposable income of 3% this year compared with a predicted 1.1% at the time of the March Budget, a fall of 1.1% next year compared with a predicted rise of 0.7% in March. Most damning of all is the finding by the IFS that the distributional effects of the changes announced by the Chancellor yesterday will punish those in the lowest two income deciles. Unbelievably, those in the wealthiest 10% are among the few gainers. Unsurprisingly, it is families with children who take the biggest hit. As Paul Johnson of the IFS said on BBC Radio 4’s “World at One”, this afternoon,
“failure to index some elements of tax credits…will leave some poorer families worse off, and will lead to an increase in measured child poverty…The Government have no chance at all of reducing child poverty.”
What a damning finding on what the Chancellor did yesterday.
In terms of public services, on which the poorest rely most heavily, the IFS has today discovered that the Government are planning a huge assault on public service spending, a 16.2% real-terms cut over the next seven years, far beyond the previous record of 7% real-terms cuts in the 1970s. The Chancellor’s promise not to balance the books on the backs of the poorest lies in tatters this afternoon. His own Treasury figures show that the poorest fifth of the population are amongst the biggest losers from the tax and benefits measures in his Budgets and autumn statements, and inequality is on the rise. He could not even bring himself to admit in his statement yesterday that his own figures show that child poverty will rise across the UK by a further 100,000 in the next tax year as a result of his cruel cuts in tax credits and housing benefits.
This Government have made their choice: slumping growth, rising poverty and higher unemployment are the prices worth paying for a failed economic theory that is letting Britain down and offering nothing but despair for the jobless millions. Now, Scotland can see them as they truly are—the downgraded Chancellor of a deflationary and uncaring Government.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (David Mundell)
Thank you, Mr. Robertson. I welcome the opportunity to appear under your chairmanship, and it is particularly appropriate that you are in the Chair for this debate on St. Andrew’s day. I pay tribute to the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock (Sandra Osborne) for instigating this debate. She and other hon. Members who have contributed to the debate are correct to say that there should be more discussion and debate of these issues in relation to Scotland, and that there should be more discussion and debate in this Parliament in respect of the reserved issues for which this Government are responsible in Scotland. Scotland has two Governments, both of which play a significant role and both of which should be held to account.
I also agree that the two Governments should work more closely together on many of the issues that have been touched on today. Sadly, for reasons also touched on by many hon. Members, principally the obsession of the SNP Government in Edinburgh with independence and constitutional issues, it has not always been possible to have the dialogue that would serve the people of Scotland best—on substantive matters in relation to policy objectives and outcomes, rather than the debate constantly being about who did what.
We have had a number of detailed contributions to the debate, particularly by the hon. Member for Glasgow North (Ann McKechin), and the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg), who chairs the Select Committee. I give them a firm commitment that I will take away the points that they have made, and raise them with Department for Work and Pensions colleagues and I will write back to them on their specific points. While we might not be in agreement on the policy prescription, or whether the policies of the Government of which they were a part delivered much of what the hon. Member for Ayr, Carrick and Cumnock set out, I am in agreement with them that the issues that they raised are important and significant.
As ever, I commend the right hon. Member for Stirling (Mrs McGuire) for the passion in her contribution. Again, the issues that she raised are worthy of much more significant debate, especially in relation to the concerns about the impact of hidden poverty, which is not just a financial issue. There would be agreement across the House on that. I listened to the points made by the right hon. Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill (Mr Clarke). I do not necessarily agree with what he had to say, but I sense his passion on the issue, and he has a long track record of fighting the cause of the poor, and that is to be commended. My hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute (Mr Reid) did not make a speech, although it felt as if he did. It will not surprise you to learn, Mr. Robertson, that I agree with most of the points that he made in his interventions. I am sure that, over the Christmas period, when he reflects on such matters, as he was asked to do by the right hon. Member for Stirling, he will reflect on the many achievements of the coalition Government in taking forward their agenda. When he intervened on the hon. Member for Glasgow North East (Mr Bain)—I welcome him to the first real exchange that we have had since he took his position—my hon. Friend the Member for Argyll and Bute make the most significant point, which is how the various aspirations that were expressed during the debate would be paid for. We did not hear anything about that. We heard again about Labour’s five-point plan. As far as I am aware, that is a £20 billion black hole for which no funding has been identified.
Sandra Osborne
Does the Minister agree that a far more effective way of solving the youth unemployment problem would be a £2 billion tax on bank bonuses, which would fund 100,000 jobs for young people?
David Mundell
The hon. Lady knows that the Government have moved forward with a bank levy, which has raised more than the tax on bonuses that her Government set out. It is populist to say, “tax the bankers,” but that does not set out where the money would come from that would create the funding she suggests.
I hope the hon. Lady will join me in welcoming yesterday’s announcement on the youth contract—a significant step forward in tackling what everyone accepts is the serious problem of youth unemployment. Of course, it was not acknowledged in today’s debate that youth unemployment rose under the previous Labour Government. Youth unemployment is a serious issue, on which we should be trying to work on a cross-party basis. That is why I was pleased to be part of a seminar in Ayrshire with the hon. Member for Central Ayrshire (Mr. Donohoe), bringing together the UK Government and the Scottish Government to look at the underlying problems of youth unemployment. That is why I am pleased that my right hon. Friends the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions will host a national meeting in Scotland with John Swinney to focus on youth unemployment in Scotland.
Working Tax Credits
(13 years ago)
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Jonathan Reynolds (Stalybridge and Hyde) (Lab/Co-op)
It is a pleasure to have been able to secure a debate on which I have been trying to be successful in the ballot for some time. It is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship, Mr. Robertson, and to welcome the Minister to her relatively new job. I warmly congratulate her on it. She is surely further proof that all the best parliamentary careers begin in the Whips Office.
I am pleased to see a number of other hon. Members present. Several changes have been announced to working tax credit, not least those yesterday in the autumn statement. I will try to accommodate any colleagues who might wish to highlight their concerns or those of their constituents. For my part, in the time available, I want to discuss the changes to working tax credit that were announced in the spending review in October 2010. Specifically, from April 2012, the total weekly hours that a couple with children need to work in order to qualify for working tax credit will go up from 16 to 24, with one partner needing to work at least 16 hours a week. At present, couples whose annual income is less than about £17,700 a year qualify for tax credit if at least one of the couple works 16 hours a week. I want to talk about what these changes will mean for working families, how many of those families will be affected and what it will mean for couples where one partner has caring responsibilities.
Ann Coffey (Stockport) (Lab)
I congratulate my hon. Friend on getting this important debate. We are all sorry that it is not longer.
My hon. Friend might be interested to know that I recently sent out a survey to find out about the child care arrangements of parents in my constituency. Interestingly, a number of grandparents replied; they all made the similar point that, without the free child care that they provided, parents would be facing mounting debts because of the squeeze on their family incomes and long-term financial problems. Does he agree that the Government have not properly thought through the cumulative affect of their policies on families?
Jonathan Reynolds
I agree with my hon. Friend. If we had had one of the longer slots for debate, perhaps we could have discussed in more detail the interaction between working tax credit, child tax credit and the child care allowance. The interconnection between them is crucial. I shall ask the Minister near the end of the debate what transitional arrangements could be considered for some of those who are most badly affected by the changes.
Working tax credit has played an important part in recent development of the welfare state. When working tax credit was introduced in 2003, it balanced the goal of eradicating child poverty with promoting work. It currently offers around £4,000 for families on lower incomes and aims to ensure that families will always be better off in work. Until it was introduced, too many families had complained that going out to work might leave them less well off financially. Working tax credit was introduced to ensure that work always paid. It did so much more. Encouraging people back into work concerns more than just the contents of their pay packet. Work is about skills.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
My hon. Friend has done well to secure this debate. He is talking about the difficulties of getting into work. This is particularly true for part-time staff. The change in the threshold from 16 to 24 hours is of great concern to people in my constituency, particularly those in the retail sector, where shifts will not be available because of the dire economic situation we face. Those people are among the 200,000 families who potentially will lose up to £4,000. This measure could force families back on to benefit and out of work. Surely this is not the right way to proceed.
Jonathan Reynolds
I agree with my hon. Friend. It is specifically the impact on people working in, for instance, the retail sector that has prompted me to apply for this debate. I am sure that my hon. Friend and I agree that we do not want to see anything that makes it potentially less attractive for people to go out to work.
Couples and single parents who currently work for at least 16 hours a week are eligible for working tax credit. According to the Government’s proposals, from April couples will have to work an extra eight hours in order to qualify. Failure to secure additional work will exempt claimants from the credit completely. The reality is that about 280,000 families in receipt of working tax credit currently work less than 24 hours a week. Under the proposals, they could lose up to £4,000 a year.
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
This is a very important point. Will my hon. Friend confirm that they will lose not only their working tax credit, as he said, but their child care tax credits if they use child care, as many will? They could lose another couple of thousand pounds there.
Jonathan Reynolds
Absolutely. They stand to lose even more when child care is taken into consideration. There is an internal tension between the Government’s stated ambition on universal credit and these actions. It would be interesting to hear the Minister’s views on how those two aspects interplay.
Mr Andrew Smith (Oxford East) (Lab)
I join the chorus of congratulations extended to my hon. Friend. I hope that he gets time to make some points between interventions.
Does my hon. Friend agree that this represents an incredible retreat from, and abandonment of, the historic pledge by the previous Government to eradicate child poverty within a generation? Will this not have the opposite effect, in terms of the welfare to work agenda—perversely forcing some people to go back on to benefit because of all the losses they will suffer, as hon. Members have said?
Jonathan Reynolds
Indeed. A family currently on £18,000 a year could lose £4,000, which is a huge loss. It will, as I understand it, push as many as half a million children back below the poverty line.
The Minister may say to me that the simple solution is for claimants to work an additional eight hours. For some people in receipt of working tax credit, the demands of caring, child care or limited health may make it difficult for them to work those additional hours. These changes make no allowance for that.
I was first alerted to the scope of this issue when I was contacted by a resident in my constituency who was hit by a car 11 years ago. He was previously employed as a printer and would routinely work 12-hour shifts a day for his family. He has not been able to work since the accident and needs some degree of care. His wife, as well as caring for her husband and their young daughter, works 17 hours a week in a before and after school club. She cannot increase her hours at the school because the club runs only for those 17 hours a week. With the caring responsibilities for her husband and daughter, she would struggle to find a second job with sufficiently flexible hours. The money they receive though working tax credit makes a real difference. Under the Government’s plan they would lose it.
I acknowledge that, rightly, the Government do not plan to increase the hours of work required by single parents, in recognition of the additional pressures they face. However, they also need to consider the impact that these changes will have on families where one member is disabled, or one member has a caring responsibility, or both. They should urgently consider whether additional exemptions should be applied. Indeed, I put a range of parliamentary questions over the past six months to the Exchequer Secretary, to try to ascertain how many of the 280,000 couples that this will affect have a partner with caring responsibilities or a disability, and to get a more detailed breakdown. However, the Government could not provide much of that information, and what they could provide was extremely limited.
As I have said, the promotion of work is at the heart of the working tax credit scheme. The principle of asking people to take on work to qualify for working tax credits is a positive one. But if the amount of work we require is unrealistic, it will hurt rather than help some of the most vulnerable people in our society.
Cathy Jamieson (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab/Co-op)
I thank my hon. Friend for giving way and for securing this debate. I am sure he will be aware of this, but will he comment on the point made by the trade union USDAW that 78% of the couples it has surveyed who work between 16 and 24 hours say that there is no way in which they could increase their working hours, and that the retail sector is particularly squeezed at present, meaning that overtime that may have been guaranteed in the run-up to Christmas in previous years is no longer available ?
Jonathan Reynolds
Absolutely, and I am very grateful to USDAW for its support in giving me research and case studies relevant to this debate, because these proposed changes will particularly impact on the retail and service sectors, where there is a prevalence of part-time work. They are rightly concerned about the impact it will have on their members. I have seen their tax credits survey, which suggests that 79% of their members who receive working tax credit would not be able to secure additional hours from their employers before next April. Indeed, they have already talked to members who have repeatedly tried to secure extra hours from their employers, but been told that the work is not available. Where additional hours are available they are often late at night or very early in the morning. The lack of public transport means that members cannot take them.
An added complication is that there is often a mismatch in the retail sector between the hours staff are contracted to work and the hours they actually work. In recent years there has been a trend for retailers to cut the hours staff are contracted to work, with an expectation that they will work longer, additional hours at busy periods. That means that under the proposed changes couples actually working more than the 24 hours that makes them eligible for working tax credit might not get it because not all of their hours are contracted.
I put it to the Minister that that would be completely unconscionable, and I respectfully request that she address this point when she responds to me later in the debate.
I do not yet believe that the full impact of these changes has been considered or identified by the Government. The Government claim they are still committed to ending child poverty, but this is a measure that has the potential to push many families well below the poverty line. It is a regressive step that will concern many Members.
I would hope that the withdrawal of working tax credit from those who could not secure additional work would not prompt a return to the old idea that work will not pay. But that is the risk, and that would be the tragedy, not only for the employees concerned but for the parts of industries that rely on a flexible work force willing to work just a few hours a week.
In these tough economic times I would rather that the Government reviewed their plans, but I do not think that they will do that. Instead, may I implore them to do two things? I ask them, first, to exempt couples where one partner is either disabled or a carer from these changes; and, secondly, to increase awareness of the change among employers and employees, to ensure that they have the best chance of working together so that they can fulfil the requirements for eligibility for working tax credit payments. In addition, if these changes are to go ahead, will the Minister consider what help the Government can give to the most badly affected couples in terms of transitional arrangements?
This change will impact on the lives of many thousands of struggling families, many of whom are my constituents, and I am extremely grateful to be able to highlight this matter before the House this afternoon.
The Economic Secretary to the Treasury (Miss Chloe Smith)
First, may I congratulate the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde (Jonathan Reynolds) on securing this debate, and thank him for his kind words about my role at the beginning of his comments? He has asked me a number of specific questions, which I shall be happy to address. In addition, I would like briefly to set out the various reforms to tax credits. I will talk a little about child poverty and, of course, about work incentives, before addressing fully his main point about the 16 to 24 hours change.
Bill Esterson
In her reply, will the Minister deal with the central issue of fairness? Does she think that targeting the poorest families by cutting tax credits is a fair approach as a deficit reduction measure, or does she think that this is wrong, and that the Government should target the bankers?
Miss Smith
I will happily tackle that. In fact, the hon. Gentleman brings me straight to the main point with which I must preface my comments, which is that we are in a very difficult position, economically speaking. That cannot have escaped the attention of anybody sitting here, least of all the right hon. Member for East Ham (Stephen Timms), who I know is very alive to all such matters. However, the fact is that when faced with a very difficult economic situation, we have to make very difficult choices. We must be mindful of the fact that to leave the country struggling under an enormous debt burden does not help anybody; normal working households would not thank us for failing to deal with that situation. So that is one view of fairness to which I shall return throughout my speech.
Mr Andrew Smith
I am very grateful to the Minister for giving way. If we accept for a moment the premise of her argument—tough times, difficult choices—is it not all the more important to have the closest regard to fairness, the point that my hon. Friend the Member for Sefton Central (Bill Esterson) was making? How can it be fair to target these working people in the way the Government are doing?
Miss Smith
I am unsure from his comments whether the right hon. Gentleman accepts the premise that we are in difficult economic times. I do not know which parallel universe he is living in, but if he is in the same one as I am, he will know that, yes, of course we must do what we do as fairly as possible. He will also know that our bank levy is raising more every year than his party raised in one year, and with that I shall, I hope, lay that topic to rest, unless the hon. Lady would like to take it further.
Debbie Abrahams (Oldham East and Saddleworth) (Lab)
Would the Minister confirm that 100,000 extra children will be pushed into poverty as a result of the reduction in working tax credit that was announced yesterday? Will she confirm that that was what the OBR says the additional number of children in poverty will be?
Miss Smith
I can confirm that that figure relates to the measures of child poverty as set out by the Child Poverty Act 2010 and by the current debate. No doubt, the hon. Member for Stockport (Ann Coffey) is already rubbing her fingers with glee about that. I will come on to that in my comments as well. I wish to introduce the idea that we need to move on to tackling the causes of poverty rather than the statistical method of counting poverty.
Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab)
As we realised from the autumn statement yesterday, the Chancellor seems quite fond of giving with one hand and taking away with the other. We can see what has been taken away: up to £4,000 from these families. Is there anything that these families will get in return that would help to fulfil the Government’s promise that they would be the most family-friendly Government in history? From what we have heard today so far, there is not, but could the Minister enlighten us?
Miss Smith
I thank the hon. Lady very much for her consideration in the sequencing of interventions and I will come on to exactly that point.
I will continue to speak briefly about the high level need for action which drove yesterday’s announcements. As hon. Members will know, the UK economy is recovering from the biggest financial crisis in generations. June 2010’s Budget set out the Government’s plans to reduce the deficit and rebuild the economy. However, since then—and this is the crucial point from yesterday’s analysis which accompanied the OBR’s figures, and both must be taken together in my view—the UK economy has been hit by a number of shocks. The OBR names three: first, higher than expected inflation, which the OBR calls an “external shock”; secondly, ongoing instability from the euro area crisis; and; thirdly, the full and permanent damage done by the 2008-09 financial crisis.
It is unwise not to recognise those three major factors. It is absolutely vital that we tackle our debts. It is absolutely vital that we react appropriately and wisely to the economic situation presented to us, and I think that households know that. No household would thank a Government who, instead of dealing responsibly with that situation, carried on spending, carried on borrowing and carried on racking up the debt to do so.
Debbie Abrahams
That still does not explain—to pick up a point one of my hon. Friends made—why the Government are choosing to punish honest, hard-working families instead of taxing bankers. It is about a four-times greater punishment in terms of taking away money from these families, compared to what the Government are taking away from bankers.
Miss Smith
Let me reiterate, first, the incontrovertible point that we are taking more from bankers every year than the Labour party did in one year of operation. Furthermore, I must point this out and, I hope, lay the matter to rest: the distributional allowances published alongside the autumn statement yesterday clearly indicated that it is the top 10% of the income band that is contributing.
Let me turn briefly to a summary of what was announced yesterday and previously. The Chancellor said that we will uprate the disability elements of tax credits in line with prices, and increase the child element of the child tax credit by £135 in line with inflation too. We will not, however, uprate the other elements of the working tax credit this coming year. Hon. Members have highlighted the fact that, given the size of the uprating this year, we will no longer go ahead with the planned additional £110 rise in the child element over and above inflation.
I must make a further comment, which is that of course the Government believe that the welfare system must remain fair and affordable while protecting the most vulnerable. We must also note within the figures I have just given that by April 2012 the child tax credit will have increased by £390 since last May, and that is of course per child.
A number of reforms to tax credits were announced in the June Budget and the spending review. The point is that the previous Government spent more than £150 billion on tax credits since 2003. This was unsustainable in many ways, and I will give an example before moving on. Under the previous system tax credits were available to families earning up to £58,000. If households had an increase in income of up to £25,000 in the year then they could have earned up to £83,000 and still benefited from tax credits. Taking on board the principles raised by hon. Members, that means to me that we had to act in a situation that appeared to be very unfair, in that people in the top income decile were eligible for tax credits. That is unjustifiable, unfair and very unsustainable in the current economic climate.
Stephen Timms
I know that the Minister was a member of the Welfare Reform Bill Committee, and so is very familiar with the advantages of universal credit set out to the Committee, which include it being available to people working just two, three or four hours a week. The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions frequently draws attention to that advantage, yet with this measure her Department is moving in the opposition direction by limiting the availability of tax credits only to those working more than 24 hours as a household. That is the opposite of what her right hon. Friend is doing.
Miss Smith
Regrettably, I thought that the right hon. Gentleman wanted to respond to why higher earners would have received tax credits under the previous system, but I will come to his point in the bulk of my comments.
Jonathan Reynolds
May I bring the Minister back to the specific move from 16 to 24 hours? The figures I have from the Treasury estimate that this change will save £380 million a year. Yes, that is a substantial sum, but the context is one of a Government now borrowing £158 billion more over this Parliament than they said they would just a year ago. If a family’s income goes from £18,000 a year to £14,000, based on this change, will they not feel some angst at a statement that focuses only on higher earners having their tax credits taken away and the wider economic impact? To go from £18,000 to £14,000 is a very big change for a family in my constituency.
Miss Smith
Let me move on to the change that the hon. Gentleman highlighted, which is the move from 16 to 24 hours. As he explained, under the current system couples with children can claim working tax credit if one partner works 16 hours a week. The hon. Gentleman will know that at the moment lone parents must also work at least 16 hours to qualify for the working tax credit. As he said, however, under the 2010 spending review, from April next year couples with children will have to work 24 hours between them, with at least one partner working 16. In response to the interventions made, this change makes the system fairer by reducing that disparity between couples and lone parents. I would not like to stand here to defend why those two groups should be treated differently. I can see the hon. Member for Stalybridge and Hyde twitching but I must move on in order to tackle two of the points he specifically asked me to address.
There are exemptions where couples may have a limited capability to work. That means that couples with children will continue to qualify for working tax credit where one member works at least 16 hours a week and that person is eligible for the working tax credit disability element. In addition, there will be an exemption for some couples with children where only one member works at least 16 hours a week and the other adult does not work, for example where one adult is incapacitated. A couple with children will continue to qualify for working tax credit at 16 hours if one partner is in receipt of disability living allowance.
Moving on to how else we can increase support for lower and middle income earners and improve the rewards to work. On work incentives, which I said I would cover, universal credit has already been mentioned and it is in that area—
Cathy Jamieson
I thank the Minister for giving way. Before she moves on to work incentives, will she address the point about low-paid workers who would find it difficult to get that extra eight hours to stay on the working tax credits, and who will potentially see their incomes drop from £18,000 to £14,000 in a year? What consideration has the Minister given to transitional arrangements or help for that particular group?
Miss Smith
The point I was about to make was that the introduction of universal credit is where the Government anticipate making the most major transitional arrangements, and I note the hon. Lady’s points—and those of other Members in earlier interventions—in particular in relation to retail sector work, for example. Everybody appreciates that the economic climate is hard at the moment—the ideal world is not out there for everybody. I take her point.
Moving on very briefly to the work incentives provided by the universal credit, the phrase has already been used that work must always pay and be seen to do so. One of the key features of universal credit—the hon. Lady will know this—is that it will be paid in and out of work, and that the hours rule will disappear to smooth the transition into work and ensure that that it pays.
Stephen Timms
The Minister’s Department is making the hours rule worse now. It will be better in the future; why is she doing the opposite in her Department?
Miss Smith
We need to move in one direction in this economy, which is to tackle the deficit. I made that point very strongly up front. We must also look to major reforms such as the universal credit, and perhaps before that the Work programme in some cases. There are a number of examples that I look forward to the Government delivering. I have given some; let me give some more that will also answer the points made about what people might get in return.
The Government are investing a further £380 million by 2014-15 to extend the offer of 15 hours of free education and care a week for disadvantaged two-year-olds, which will cover an extra 130,000 children. That is only one element of what the Government will do to help working families. Support has been focused on those on out-of-work benefits—this is a key point that I have no doubt the right hon. Member for East Ham will appreciate. They need greater protection against rising prices than people on working tax credit who are, of course, not solely reliant on this income; they also have income from work, which is key. I do, though, take the points made regarding the difficulty of getting a job in the palm of one’s hand before asking for it.
The Government, however, remains committed to making work pay. As the Chancellor made clear yesterday, the best way to help working people is by taking them out of tax altogether. In April 2012 we will make a £630 increase in the income tax personal allowance, taking it to £8,105. This is in addition to the £1,000 increase in April this year. Together, these increases will benefit 25 million individuals and take 1.1 million low-income individuals out of tax from April 2012.
As I started to articulate, there is then the reform to which I look forward. Universal credit will unify the complex current system of means-tested out-of-work benefits, tax credits and support for housing into one single payment. The award will be withdrawn at a single rate, with the aim of offering a smooth transition into work and encouraging progression into work.
For parents currently on working tax credit, and in the future, the Government continue to provide support for 70% of child care costs—I am conscious that hon. Members have mentioned child care today. That goes up to a weekly limit of £175 for families with one child and £300 for two or more children. Under the universal credit this support will be extended to those working fewer than 16 hours, which will allow 80,000 additional families to receive help with child care costs. That will give second earners and lone parents, typically women, a stronger incentive to work, and I am proud of all those measures.
I shall deal briefly with child poverty and the way in which the Government see it before concluding. Poverty is about more than income; it is about a lack of opportunity, aspiration and stability. We are keen to tackle its root causes, and ensure that children born in low-income families realise their full potential. I have suggested measures that will help, both in the short and long term, but policy in this area has been distorted by a preoccupation with counting the number of children below a certain line, rather than moving families over a real line, as opposed to an imaginary one.
Jonathan Reynolds
Surely, that is the purpose of working tax credits. As has been said, with universal credit, the Government are going in the opposite direction from the policy that the Minister is pursuing; it disincentives people who wish to go out to work, which goes against what she said about the wider impact and causes of poverty. Incentivising people to go into the workplace is the best solution, but this policy moves in completely the opposite direction.
Miss Smith
Indeed, we need to incentivise people to go into the workplace. However, we have less money than we thought, and we have less money than any previous Government cared to highlight. We have to prioritise who we spend that money on. I would rather give it to people who have no other source of work—in other words, those on out-of-work benefits, rather than those on in-work benefits. That is a sensible principle.
To conclude, the Government have had to take urgent action to tackle what is unsustainable in broader economic terms as well as an unsustainable Welfare Reform Bill. Spending on tax credits has increased from £18 billion in 2003-04 to an estimated £30 billion last year, which is unsustainable and unfair, given the examples that I have mentioned. If we look at the cumulative impact on households of tax, tax credits and benefit reforms introduced both yesterday and before, the top income decile sees the largest reduction in income, both in cash terms and as a percentage of net income. I will take no lectures from the Opposition on believing in more spending, more borrowing and more debt, spent unsustainably and spent unfairly across the income range. I do not think that any working household will thank them for that.
Calculators in Schools
(13 years ago)
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Elizabeth Truss (South West Norfolk) (Con)
I am pleased to have secured this debate on the use of calculators in school. The Library confirmed to me that there has not been a single debate on this subject in the past 10 years, and I suspect that it goes even further back than that. There may never have been a debate in Parliament about the use of calculators in school, but it is extremely important that the subject is given an airing before the curriculum review in 2013.
To make the position clear, I am not anti-calculator. In fact, I count myself a bit of a geek. I was a mainstay of my school computer club, and I was happy to spend time programming in BASIC, and whiled away many a contented teenage hour doing so. However, I believe that technology has to be used in the right way at the right time and at the right age. I do not believe in the micromanagement of teachers, or telling them what they ought to do in the classroom. On the subject of calculators, we must acknowledge that the Government have actively encouraged their use in school through directions in the national curriculum and calculator use in standard assessment tests. We are therefore not looking at a neutral landscape.
Finally, calculator usage is not the only reason for poor maths performance, and I do not seek to claim that it is. We need to look at teaching standards, the curriculum and pupil motivation, but we can say—and there is significant academic evidence for this—that calculator use too early has a negative impact on mathematical ability. Having observed eight-year-olds being taught multiplication on calculators in an English classroom before they have fully grasped and practised key mathematical operations, I am concerned that things are going on in our schools as a result of Government policy about which we need to be mindful and careful.
Most teachers would consider that consolidating skills at the age of seven or eight in division, multiplication and fractions, and introducing proper, formal methods that can be used for a lifetime, are important in preparing students for life. Many of my constituents report that too-easy access to calculators is available in local schools. Failure to secure good basics can result in problems later in school, and we have only to look at the PISA––programme for international student assessment—international league tables, in which Britain is in 28th place, to see that we have a problem.
It is not just a problem in maths. We know that good, early maths helps to develop both logical thinking and skills in abstraction, which are useful in all kinds of analytical subjects and jobs. My hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) has been very effective in raising the issue of financial capability and how people can manage their bank accounts, mortgages and loans. To do so, they need a good understanding of arithmetic and mathematics. They need to be able to ready-reckon in their head the purchase they are making or the financial product they are buying. If we do not lay out those basics early on, as a country we will struggle.
This is part of a general problem that we have with technology, which has been highlighted by various IT and technology companies, and by Eric Schmidt of Google. Too often in our schools, technology is seen as a magic box that students use, rather than a tool: they need to understand how something operates, learn to programme it and think for themselves. We are in danger of getting into a sat-nav process whereby students are led through a series of steps, rather than understanding programming and how IT works. On the subject of learning to use IT in schools, I have yet to meet a teenager who is not an expert in using smart phones and making internet searches, but I have met quite a few who are not quite so hot on mental arithmetic. We need to rebalance the skills that we encourage students to learn.
What is in the national curriculum? For seven to 11-year-olds—key stage 2—there is a separate section in the national curriculum on calculator methods. That is an early age at which to teach such methods compared with other countries. The national curriculum is specific about how that ought to be taught—it is pretty dirigiste. Not only are calculator methods set out in the curriculum and encouraged as part of what older primary schoolchildren learn, but they are tested at 11. However, many questions in the test for 11-year-olds do not require a calculator to answer them. I have a sample question from the “calculator allowed” test in mathematics for 2010:
“These are some prices in a flower shop. Tulips: £1.20 for a bunch; roses: 40p each; daffodils, 55p for a bunch. How many roses can you buy for exactly £2?”
Most Members in the Chamber would be able to work that out without using a calculator. That kind of question should encourage thinking and mental arithmetic but, unfortunately, in the tests at the moment, students are asked to use calculator for basic sums.
According to the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study 2007, calculator use by 10-year-olds in England is the highest of any country in the study. We are an outlier on the matter, and only 2% of 10-year-olds in primary schools in England do not use calculators. If we look at the top-performing countries in PISA 2009, which is generally reckoned to be the most objective international comparison, because all students sit the same test, which they do not do in other studies, we can see lower calculator use and stronger resistance to calculators by teachers in those schools. Zhangzhou, China is the top performer, but that was not covered in the TIMSS test, so I cannot comment on that, but Singapore was number two, and 98% of its 10-year-olds do not use calculators in school. Hong Kong was number three, where 50% of its pupils do not use calculators, and there are very strict limitations on those who do use them to prevent their use for basic computational work. Korea was number four and although its 10-year-olds were not included in the study, even their 14-year-olds had a low usage of calculators. China Taipei was number five.
In 2008, the Department for Children, Schools and Families did a comparative study that showed that teachers felt great caution about the use of calculators in schools. Similarly, the use of calculators in schools in Austria and Germany is very low. Generally speaking, international studies show that calculators get introduced at about the age of nine to 11, and for specific purposes. They are not used for those basic arithmetical operations that I described in the SATs test, but for those cases where only a calculator can be used.
Traditionally, Anglophone and Scandinavian countries have higher calculator use—countries such as the US, Denmark, Australia, Sweden, New Zealand and Finland, but nowhere has such high usage as England. We really are the most keen on calculators. I would describe this country as in love with the calculator, and from a very early age. The use of calculators in other countries has prompted much academic debate, and critiques about it appear in the US, the UK and Scandinavia on both sides of the argument. There is a growing international debate about the use of technology and how we inculcate the basic skills that people need to think before they go on to use technology, rather than thinking of the calculator as a magic box that will solve the answer to every question.
The Massachusetts curriculum—it is the top-performing state in the US—places restrictions on calculator use and says that it cannot be used for basic arithmetic operations. Sweden has a non-calculator exam at the age of 18. Alberta, one of the top-performing Canadian provinces, has a strong focus on mental mathematics. A lot of the Anglophone and Scandinavian countries are now beginning to think about how excessive calculator use at an early age may have impacted on standards in maths and the ability to do maths.
We all know that the west is facing a strong challenge from the east, particularly in respect of human capital and skills and capabilities. All countries would be wise to consider why the east’s performance, particularly in subjects such as maths and science, is outstripping that of the western world. I urge the Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Mr Gibb), to consider the place of calculators in the curriculum. We should remove calculator methods from the teaching of children as young as seven and eight, because that is taking time away from getting a good grounding in the basics. If one speaks to teachers in high school, they will often say that students arriving at their schools are not prepared in the basics due to a lack of practice. My fear is that by having a strong section on calculator methods in the curriculum we are taking away time that could be used on preparing children in those basics.
We should also consider the provision of calculators in the SATs tests. I know that there are questions about the overall standards in the SATs. I also know that the Minister is considering them and that he is keen to see more formal methods applied in the curriculum so that pupils learn proper long multiplication and long division. We also need to consider other parts of the curriculum that may be taking up time from that valuable practice in getting the basics right.
Our record is not good. We are 28th in the world according to the PISA league tables, and an outlier according to the OECD in terms of the number of 16 to 18-year-olds studying maths, because, I believe, the start of their maths career was not very good. If we want to get better at maths in this country, we need to start to get those basics right, so we can get more people to do maths. The Chancellor announced yesterday that maths free schools would be an option at 16 to 18 years, but if we do not have the confidence in performing those basic mathematical operations, I fear that we will be unable to get students up to the level to perform later on.
Justin Tomlinson (North Swindon) (Con)
I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) on securing this excellent debate. I thank her for being kind enough to allow me to make some supportive comments.
As the chair of the all-party parliamentary group on financial education, I absolutely support this call about calculator use because the absolute cornerstone and bedrock to making the next generation of consumers savvy, quick-thinking and financially literate is having a good grasp of mental arithmetic. Without that, it will be impossible for us to deliver improved levels of financial education.
I also speak as a former employer. Time and time again in my business, we almost had to start again with mental arithmetic when we employed people. Mental arithmetic was important for my business, as it is for businesses right across the country. When I meet representatives of businesses of different sizes that frustration is borne out by experience.
Mathematical ability is also incredibly important for personal confidence. This week, I visited an excellent school, Sevenfields, in my constituency. It has transformed itself into an outstanding school, and the main driver behind that is confidence in subjects such as maths, driven by mental arithmetic. Old-fashioned that may be, but it is making a real difference in that school. It is also important to foster personal confidence in students to embrace mathematics. We have been struggling for too long to acquire the number of students who wish to take on maths and progress further. If people can conquer mental arithmetic, they then have the confidence to progress further in maths. In common with my hon. Friend, I am a bit of geek in this respect.
Confidence in maths drives forward the ability to acquire entrepreneurial skills. We see from the “Young Apprentice” TV programme that those young people with good mental arithmetic do particularly well in many of the tasks, particularly haggling. I recall from when I was running my business the number of times when I met suppliers who simply could not do mental arithmetic. They relied on a calculator, which they were embarrassed to use in front of me and which allowed me to run rings round them, and make reasonably good profit margins. That is a serious observation, because that was not just a one-off, but happened time and time again.
For the sake of driving up maths standards, improving confidence and supporting our ongoing financial education campaign, I urge the Minister to get behind this campaign to promote mental arithmetic skills.
The Minister of State, Department for Education (Mr Nick Gibb)
I begin by congratulating my hon. Friend the Member for South West Norfolk (Elizabeth Truss) on securing this interesting debate on a topic of great importance to us all. I take the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for North Swindon (Justin Tomlinson) about the importance of mathematics not just in providing progression to more sophisticated maths, but in day-to-day operation of haggling and securing a good deal. I know that what he said from his own business experience is absolutely right, and I am sure that that lack is more pervasive in our economy than people suspect.
My hon. Friend’s excellent opening speech reiterated many of the same points that she made in her article published in The Sunday Times last week entitled, “Cancel the calculators and make pupils think”. I broadly agree with her analysis, and in particular her astute observations on how calculators are overused in classrooms in England. I also agree with her suggestion that there is much that we can learn from the best-performing nations and regions around the world; her analysis of Britain’s position in international rankings when it comes to maths; and her conclusion that we need to look again at the way in which calculators are used in primary schools.
Getting mathematics teaching right at an early age is of prime importance, and securing the foundations of mathematical understanding early at primary school will help our pupils to gain mathematical fluency and achieve at GCSE level and beyond. The modern work force demands people with high levels of mathematical ability as employment opportunities become increasingly technological and the importance of the internet continues to grow. There is a growing demand for people with high-level maths skills to become the scientists and engineers of the future. There is an increasing need for people with intermediate maths skills in a whole range of disciplines. That is why the Secretary of State has said that it is the Government’s intention that within 10 years the vast majority of young people will study maths from the age of 16 to 19.
My hon. Friend for South West Norfolk is right that this country is an outlier in the number of students continuing to study maths beyond the age of 16. As my hon. Friend rightly pointed out, the UK is falling behind internationally. I make no apologies for reminding other hon. Members—it is my hon. Friend who I am reminding—that over the past 10 years the United Kingdom has dropped down the international league table of school performance, falling from eighth to 28th in maths. PISA results show that many countries are racing ahead of the UK in mathematical attainment. Pupils in Shanghai are working at a level in maths that is about two and a half years ahead of that of their peers in the UK. Pupils from Singapore and Hong Kong are regularly introduced to some mathematical concepts much earlier than their counterparts are in England.
Justin Tomlinson
I saw that happening on a visit to a Taiwanese school. The reason behind it was that the Taiwanese felt it was so essential to their economy to embrace new technologies. They thought that that was the way to improve mathematical and science skills, which was so important to them.
Mr Gibb
My hon. Friend makes his point very eloquently. The debate is not just about the individual’s success in life—there is much evidence that those with advanced mathematical skills secure better employment prospects and higher standards of living—but that as a country we need to get it right, which we have not yet done.
As the Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study—or TIMSS—study of maths has shown, those pupils in Singapore and Hong Kong go on to outperform pupils in England in international league tables. As has been said, if we are to compete internationally, it is crucial that we equip our young people with such essential maths skills.
The foundation for more advanced mathematical and scientific study is built in primary school, where pupils can develop a love of, and a fascination with, mathematics. Unfortunately, far too many children leave primary school convinced that they “can’t do” maths. Provisional key stage 2 data for the 2011 test year shows that only 80% of pupils reached the expected level in maths, and an even lower proportion reached level 5. Without a solid grounding in arithmetic and early maths in primary school, children go on to struggle with basic mathematical skills throughout their school careers and their adult lives. We cannot allow children to fall behind at that early stage. It is vital that pupils are fluent and confident in calculation before they leave primary school. We cannot expect children to be able to cope with the demands of complicated quadratic equations if they do not have quick and accurate recall of multiplication tables. Indeed, it is not possible to do long division, without being fluent in them.
Elizabeth Truss
Does the Minister agree that understanding basic operations enables one to check calculations? For example, when purchasing an item or considering a mortgage, people can check whether their calculator is right, which provides a sense check. When people have those basic skills, they are equipped for all such difficult situations in later life.
Mr Gibb
I am sure that my hon. Friend is right. Being fluent in the multiplication tables right up to 12 times 12—there are, after all, 12 months in the year and there are 12 in a dozen, which are still frequently used quantities regardless of decimalisation—gives people an instinct for numbers. They can therefore instinctively spot where something is wrong—for example, that the dosage a nurse gives to a patient is out by a factor of five, 10 or 20—because they are used to numbers and do not have to look things up on a chart or use a machine to calculate whether a number is right. It is to provide that instinctive understanding that such basic calculations and repeated practice at primary school are so important.
I also agree with my hon. Friend that we should not hinder pupils’ understanding of calculation by allowing them to become dependent on calculators too early. Ofsted recently conducted a survey of 20 top-performing primary schools in maths in the country. The resulting report, entitled “Good Practice in Primary Mathematics: Evidence from 20 Successful Schools”, clearly shows the importance of pupils knowing their times tables properly to develop fluency in calculation. Most of the top-performing schools visited for that study introduced calculators only at the very upper end of primary school, and then only to check the answers for calculations carried out by hand. That is often a time when pupils are practising written methods for long multiplication and long division, and adding, multiplying, dividing and subtracting fractions. Finding the common denominator when trying to add one seventh and one eighth—56—is significantly harder and more boring if children do not know their multiplication tables by heart.
The international evidence is also clear. High-performing jurisdictions around the world, as my hon. Friend so eloquently said in her well-researched speech and article, would limit the use of calculators in the primary mathematics classroom. Guiding principles for the Massachusetts, Singapore and Hong Kong curricula state that calculators should not be used as a replacement for basic understanding and skills. Moreover, the 4th and 6th grade state assessments in Massachusetts, which are the equivalent of years 5 and 7 in this country, do not permit the use of a calculator. Elementary students learn how to perform basic arithmetical operations without using a calculator. Evidence from the most successful educational systems around the world suggests that calculators should be introduced only once pupils have a thorough grounding in number facts or number bonds, including knowing their multiplication tables by heart, and that calculators should be used only to support the teaching of mathematics where the aim is to focus on solving a problem rather than on the process of calculation.
It is crucial that pupils are fluent in using efficient written methods to perform calculations and do not reach for a calculator when faced with a simple addition or multiplication. The most efficient written methods, such as columnar addition and subtraction, allow a pupil to perform calculations quickly. Pupils should be taught them as soon as possible, and not spend years using intermediate methods, such as chunking.
We are currently reviewing the national curriculum to give teachers greater professional freedom over how they organise and teach their subject, and my hon. Friend’s analysis of the key stage 2 curriculum was very revealing. The review will be informed by best international practice, and will draw on other evidence about the knowledge children need to deepen their understanding at each stage of their education. Alongside the review, we are looking at how arithmetic is taught in school by engaging in an informal dialogue with maths professionals. Some key areas of consensus are emerging—namely, that there needs to be a renewed focus on quick recall of number facts, such as multiplication tables, and on the importance of consistent, efficient methods of calculation being taught throughout the school.
I believe that technology can be used to enhance teaching across all subjects. In his speech to the Royal Society earlier this year, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State highlighted the wonderful work being done by, among others, the Li Ka Shing Foundation and the highly respected Stanford Research Institute International on a pilot programme to use interactive software to support the teaching of maths. He also highlighted how computer games developed by Marcus du Sautoy are enabling children to engage with complex mathematical problems that would hitherto have been thought too advanced for them to tackle at such an age.
Children will not be able to cope with the more advanced maths that they will encounter in secondary school unless they are fully fluent in the basics, and introducing calculators too early can risk the development of that fluency. Our focus on getting maths right in primary school also requires a focus on teaching quality, as my hon. Friend hinted at in her analysis of what matters in education. One of the most important characteristics of the best performing education systems around the world is that they recruit the best possible people into teaching and provide them with high-quality professional development. There is clear consensus in the maths community that teachers must have a deep understanding of maths to be fully effective.
Our White Paper “The Importance of Teaching” set out the Government’s commitment to provide additional support for the uptake of mathematics and the sciences. In June, the Secretary of State announced that the Government will invest £135 million over the spending review period to support that aim. Much of that will go towards improving the skills of existing teachers. We have followed the example of Finland by expanding Teach First and by providing extra support for top graduates in maths and science to enter teaching.
We have also made the following commitments in the initial teacher training strategy published earlier this month. From 2012-13, we will prioritise the allocation of places to courses with a maths and science specialism over generalist primary courses. That will encourage ITT providers—universities—to offer specialist, rather than generalist, courses. We will fund £43 million in bursaries for new primary teachers, some of which will go to trainees who are training on primary courses that include a specialism. We will offer schools the opportunity to train their own primary specialist teachers, and then employ them as teachers. For 2013-14, we expect to introduce additional financial incentives for trainees who take a maths, science or language specialism as part of their primary ITT course and have a good A-level in maths, a science subject or a language.
The Government have just announced £600 million to be spent on building an additional 100 new free schools by the end of the Parliament. These new schools will include specialist maths schools for pupils between 16 and 18, and their aim will be to produce the outstanding mathematicians of the future. We are funding two cohorts of teachers to undertake the maths specialist teacher programme, which aims to improve the practice and efficacy of primary mathematics teaching. We are also part-funding two further cohorts of the programme.
Evidence around the world clearly shows that high-performing nations ensure that children receive a first-class maths education when it is based on a solid foundation of essential principles of number and calculation. That is why we are making primary-level maths a priority: we are encouraging early mastery of multiplication tables and written calculation methods, limiting the use of calculators, and raising the quality of teaching. Giving children a solid understanding of basic mathematical skills will encourage higher achievement and greater enjoyment in maths, and give every child the best possible start to their school career.
Question put and agreed to.
Written Ministerial Statements
Industrial Action in Schools
(13 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for Education (Michael Gove)
Industrial action, today, has had a severe impact on schools across the country and has caused disruption to children’s schooling and to parents and employers. At the same time, we know that many dedicated professionals have worked hard to keep schools open where they could.
The Department for Education has collected data about school closure from local authorities, academies and free schools to assess the impact of today’s industrial action.
There are 21,476 state-funded schools in England (maintained schools, academies, free schools, university technical colleges and studio schools). Some 13,349 (62%) were reported to be closed, 2,951 (14%) were reported to be partially open and 3,351 (16%) were reported to be fully open. The situation with a further 1,825 (8%) has not been reported to us or the local authority did not know.
Of the 20,027 maintained schools, 12,526 (63%) were reported to be closed, 2,536 (13%) were reported to be partially open and 3,140 (16%) were reported to be fully open. The situation with a further 1,825 (9%) was not reported or was reported as unknown.
Of the 1,449 academies (including free schools, university technical colleges and studio schools) 823 (57%) were reported to be closed, 415 (29%) were reported to be partially open and 211 (15%) reported to be fully open. There are 24 free schools, of which four were reported closed, one was reported partially open and 19 were reported to be fully open.
Post-Energy Council Meeting
The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Charles Hendry)
I represented the UK at the Energy Council in Brussels on 24 November. Fergus Ewing, Scottish Minister for Industry, Tourism and Energy, also attended.
The Council began with a report by the presidency on the progress of discussions of the energy efficiency draft directive. Denmark noted that the directive would be a high priority for their presidency from January 2012.
There was a debate on the draft regulation on infrastructure. I expressed the UK’s support for the proposal and noted the need for better cross-border permitting procedures to create a fully integrated EU market, as well as the importance of regional groupings such as the North sea countries’ offshore grid initiative. A number of member states also registered their support for the proposal while noting the need for it to respect other areas of EU legislation, such as environmental rules and member state competence.
The Council agreed conclusions on external energy relations, following interventions by a number of member states. The Commission reported on a number of international relations items, including providing a brief summary of the latest situation on the southern corridor, negotiations with Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan and with Russia.
The Commission gave a presentation of the draft regulation on offshore oil and gas activities. I welcomed the overall intention of the proposal to increase safety but expressed concern over the use of a regulation. Other member states expressed concerns.
Over lunch, Ministers discussed the effects of changes in member states’ domestic energy policies on their neighbours, continuing a similar discussion at the informal Energy Council in Wroclaw in September.
Denmark briefly outlined its plans for its presidency. Its energy priorities will be the energy efficiency directive and the 2050 energy road map.
Agriculture and Fisheries Council
(13 years ago)
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The Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Mrs Caroline Spelman)
I and my right hon. Friend the Minister of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Minister with responsibility for Agriculture and Food, represented the UK on agriculture matters at the Agricultural and Fisheries Council on Monday 14 November. The Under-Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, the Minister with responsibility for natural environment and fisheries, my hon. Friend the Member for Newbury (Richard Benyon), represented the United Kingdom on the fisheries items. Richard Lochhead MSP, Michelle O’Neil MLA and Alun Davies AM were also in attendance.
The first item for discussion was the communication from the Commission to the European Parliament and the Council on the external dimension of the common fisheries policy. The Commission emphasised the twin objectives of ensuring sustainable management of fisheries resources while maintaining a “level playing field” across member states and third countries in order to ensure a viable EU fishing fleet. There was general support for common principles such as the need to fish sustainably, the desire for EU vessels to only use what is surplus to local requirements, ensuring coherence of the CFP with EU development policy and the need for transparency from third countries about fishing activities in their waters.
On specific issues, a number of member states expressed concern about the effect on economic viability of increasing the vessel owners’ contributions towards paying the costs of access rights; while others, including the UK, could support an increase in owners’ contributions, or owners covering the full costs.
In order to ensure a “level playing field” a number of member states called for third-country producers to be liable to the same social and environmental obligations as EU producers. The UK, along with France, Germany, Belgium and Ireland, expressed support for trade measures being taken against those countries who were not fishing sustainably.
The Danish presidency will take this forward as part of the CFP reform package in 2012.
The main agricultural item on the agenda was further discussion of the Commission’s proposals for reform of direct payments under pillar 1 of the common agricultural policy. Member states were asked for views on the proposed structure of pillar 1, and on the Commission’s plans for convergence of payment rates within and between member states. There appeared to be a developing consensus that the overall structure of the Commission’s proposals was too complex and that greater national flexibility was required for member states to respond to specific needs within their own territory.
On the detail of the proposal, a number of items were raised by member states. On greening of direct payments, even those member states who did generally accept the principle questioned the bureaucratic burden it would place on farmers and national administrations. On support for young or small farmers, many member states called for the provisions to be voluntary for member states.
When considering the move to a single payment rate within individual member states (or regions), the UK and France were in a group of member states who accepted the end goal, but thought the Commission’s proposals moved too quickly, particularly in the first year. However, some member states remain opposed. On the issue of the convergence of payment rates between member states, Ministers were split between those who will lose and those who will gain.
There were five any other business items. The first was information from the Commission on implementation of the conventional cage ban as set down in the laying hens directive. The Commission announced that it would be writing to member states to seek confirmation of compliance with the ban, which comes into force on 1 January 2012, or to ascertain how compliance will be reached. This letter will be the first step towards infraction proceedings against non-compliant member states. The Commission noted progress at a meeting of officials on 28 October considering a workable, non-legally binding, agreement to tackle the issue of large-scale non-compliance with the conventional cage ban across the EU. For the UK, my right hon. Friend the Minister of State intervened to state that such an agreement which would need to include, as a minimum, a list of compliant and non-compliant producers from member states, action plans for compliance spanning no longer than six months (which would also prevent member states from placing new hens into conventional cages), clear marks to identify non-compliant eggs, and restriction of trade for these egg and egg products to the country of production. The majority of member states that have complied with the rules were against any form of compromise agreement. In conclusion, the Commission reiterated its commitment to start infringement proceedings from 1 January 2012 but considered progress on an informal agreement as the best and quickest way to ensure full compliance from member states.
The next AOB item was a report from France on the food for deprived persons scheme. France stated that it had agreed a joint declaration with Germany agreeing continuation of the food for deprived persons scheme until the end of 2013. The declaration also stated that neither country believed that the conditions were in place for a similar scheme to be supported from the EU budget beyond 2013. The presidency concluded that there was now a qualified majority in favour of the proposal, and would aim for formal legal agreement at the December Agriculture Council.
Hungary presented the next AOB item, a paper, supported by France, Lithuania, Austria and Romania, arguing for an extension to the sugar quota system beyond 2015. Six other member states supported this call, arguing that it would provide stability of production and to allow expansion to meet demand. The UK led the counter-argument against a continuation of quotas, supported by Slovenia, Ireland and Latvia.
The presidency presented a paper on the Ryn “Forestry for climate and biodiversity” conference, and noted forthcoming international negotiations on a legally binding agreement on forests in Europe.
The final AOB item was another presidency paper reporting on the 30th conference of the Directors of paying agencies of the EU; the key conclusion of the conference had been the need for further progress on simplification.
Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council
(13 years ago)
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The Minister of State, Department for Work and Pensions (Chris Grayling)
The Employment, Social Policy, Health and Consumer Affairs Council will be held on 1 December 2011 in Brussels. I will represent the United Kingdom on all agenda items.
There will be two ongoing negotiations at this Council. In the first negotiation the presidency is seeking a political agreement to the extensions of the crisis derogations to the European globalisation adjustment fund. I will stress that the UK does not believe that the EGF is an effective or efficient instrument for managing large redundancies. While at this stage it is not possible to know how discussions will evolve, I will be seeking to protect UK taxpayers by reducing disbursements from this fund, in accordance with the position agreed with the parliamentary scrutiny Committees.
In the second negotiation, the presidency is seeking a general approach to a proposal amending Regulation (EC) No 883/2004 on the co-ordination of social security systems and Regulation (EC) No 987/2009 laying down the procedure for implementing Regulation (EC) No 883/2004. In this negotiation I will seek to support the presidency in achieving a general approach. I will reiterate that a broader debate is needed on social security for migrants. I will also support the Commission’s suggested broader review of the co-ordination of unemployment benefits.
There will also be a policy debate on the implementation of the Europe 2020 strategy in the field of employment and social policy. The debate will be informed by three papers: the Commission’s annual growth survey (including the joint employment report), a set of conclusions on the European semester and an opinion of the Social Protection Committee on the social impact of the crisis. I will welcome the annual growth survey and emphasise the need for all member states to have a credible and determined approach to structural reform, including through credible fiscal consolidation measures, opening up of markets and deeper growth-friendly labour market reforms.
There will be a progress report on three topics: minimum health and safety requirements regarding the exposure of workers to the risks arising from physical agents (electromagnetic fields), the pregnant workers directive and the equal treatment of persons irrespective of religion or belief, disability, age or sexual orientation.
In addition, Ministers will consider two sets of Council conclusions, covering ageing as an opportunity for the labour market and the development of social services and community activities, and the review of the implementation of the Beijing platform for action.
The Commission will also present a report on the functioning of the transitional arrangements on the free movement of workers from Bulgaria and Romania.
Under any other business the presidency and Commission will provide the key messages from the first annual convention of the European platform against poverty and social exclusion. The presidency will provide information on the legislative proposals in the area of migration (single permit, intra-corporate transfers and seasonal workers) and will report on the informal meeting of Ministers for family and gender equality. The Commission will also provide an update on the review of the working time directive, the posting of workers directive, and the state of play on the European debate on women on company boards.
House of Lords
Jobseeker’s Allowance: Interns
Lord Lucas
To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will require that interns who work for an organisation for longer than two months should be paid at or above the rate of Jobseeker’s Allowance.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (Baroness Wilcox)
My Lords, the Government have no such plans. Internships and work experience, paid or unpaid, offer an excellent opportunity in helping to bridge the gap between education and the workplace. It is important that we do not close down these opportunities.
We are asking businesses to offer internships openly and transparently and provide financial support to ensure fair access. This financial support could consist of either payment of at least the appropriate national minimum wage rate or alternatively payment of reasonable out-of-pocket expenses in compliance with national minimum wage law.
Lord Lucas
My Lords, I am grateful for half a loaf. Will the Government encourage all employers—and notably Parliament—to take on more interns at a time when that would be a service to the nation, particularly those children and young people who cannot afford to go without income? Will she, in the spirit of the youth contract announced yesterday, ask my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make sure that there are no prosecutions or fines for those employers who choose to make up for hard-up interns the jobseeker’s allowance which they lose by becoming interns?
Baroness Wilcox
In answering this Question, I find it interesting to discover that there is no such thing as an intern; there is no legal definition of an intern at all. One is either a worker or a volunteer. Therefore, I can agree with pretty well everything my noble friend has said, because some people will be paid and some will not be paid. In the Chancellor’s Autumn Statement yesterday, my right honourable friend said:
“In order to make the education and skills system more responsive to employer needs”,
the Government would, among other things,
“increase young people’s access to high quality work experience”.
I hope he finds that answer helpful.
Lord Lea of Crondall
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness on her high-class piece of sophistry a moment ago about there being no such thing as an intern, when we have been debating it off and on in this House for many months. The issue must be that, if people are doing what anyone else would call work, it is biased in favour of the people who can afford to have mummy and daddy give them enough to live on, as opposed to those people who are not in that position. Therefore, there should be a minimum that people get paid.
Baroness Wilcox
Internships can be paid or they can be worked on as volunteers, where we would encourage travel expenses to be paid. We are committed to improving social mobility; we are clear that job opportunities should be based on what you know and not just who you know. We are encouraging businesses to provide internships with financial support to ensure fair access. I am sure that is what the noble Lord wanted me to say.
Lord Razzall
Bearing in mind the noble Baroness’s statement that there is no such thing as an intern, why was the Prime Minister auctioning an internship at a Tory fundraising event? Does she not agree—and it is implicit in her answer to the previous questions—that the question of payment for internships is an issue of social mobility? Will she confirm that the Government firmly believe that interns should not be just from the wealthy middle class, but also people who cannot afford to work?
Baroness Wilcox
We are concerned that requiring all interns to be paid would actually reduce the number of available internships. With so many of our young people not able to get jobs at this time, we think that anything that will give them experience of the workplace and help them is a very good thing. We want to strike a balance between reducing exploitation and maintaining the maximum number of internship opportunities. As I have said, we are committed to improving social mobility and that what matters is what you know, not who you know. As the Chancellor made clear yesterday, we will work hard wherever we can to support youngsters trying to get into work and get the experience that they so badly need.
Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
The Chancellor announced yesterday that he is asking the public service independent pay review bodies to examine by next July the possibility of introducing regional or local pay. Could the Minister please confirm that the Government have no plans to follow the logic of that and in turn to examine the possibility of paying allowances and benefits, such as the jobseeker’s allowance, on a regional or local basis?
Baroness Wilcox
As far as I know, we are sticking with the minimum wage as the basis of what we are doing. Internships are paid based on the minimum wage. Anything which is paid above that is purely a voluntary arrangement. Arrangements made between employers and employees are based upon that.
Baroness Wilcox
Yes, I agree with my noble friend Lady Wheatcroft about closer links with employers, schools and colleges, and explaining the opportunities available. Often people miss out on opportunities because they do not know about them. Maybe their home backgrounds have made it impossible for them to know, so it is absolutely essential that we get closer links. I do so agree with her.
Lord Young of Norwood Green
My Lords, following the point of the noble Lord, Lord Razzall, will the Minister say how she will ensure fair and equal access to internships, regardless of parental income?
Baroness Wilcox
There is fair and equal access to internships. We will watch to make sure that we continue it. We have made it clear through updated guidance what internships must provide to comply with the law. As the noble Lord knows, guidance for employers is at businesslink.gov.uk; and guidance for individuals is at direct.gov.uk. There are plenty of places where people can go to make sure that they have got the right information.
Baroness O'Cathain
My Lords, will my noble friend consider a proposition that my noble friend Lord Lucas and I have discussed in our office? We propose that if people were brought into an internship, the payment they would get would be equivalent to the benefits that they would receive if they were not working. That would probably be an answer to everybody. If, for example, the benefits were about £40 a week and if that could be transferred to pay them as an intern, there would be a win-win situation for everybody.
Baroness Wilcox
I am interested in what my noble friend says. I am sure that if she writes to me, I will be able to have a proper exchange with her on this.
Interpol
(13 years ago)
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Lord Harries of Pentregarth
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what means they have to hold Interpol to account, especially where United Kingdom citizens are involved.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)
My Lords, Interpol facilitates international police co-operation. It does not have executive powers and its agents do not make arrests. Interpol is held to account by its member countries, through processes including the annual general assembly and the Commission for the Control of Interpol’s Files.
Lord Harries of Pentregarth
I thank the Minister for his answer. Is he aware that the Interpol red notice system is being abused by some Governments for political reasons? In particular, I have in mind Benny Wenda, the West Papuan independence leader, who was granted asylum in this country. As a UK citizen, he has suddenly been served with a red notice. Will the Minister agree to take up with Interpol the question of whether this notice violates Article 3 of the Interpol constitution, which expressly forbids such notices being served for political reasons?
Lord Henley
My Lords, the first point I ought to make is that the United Kingdom will not arrest or extradite any person solely on the basis of a red notice. I cannot confirm or deny, in the particular case the noble and right reverend Lord referred to, whether Mr Benny Wenda has or has not received a red notice from the Indonesian Government through Interpol. I can confirm that there are arrangements in place whereby objections can be made to what Interpol have done. I referred in my opening answer to the Commission for the Control of Interpol’s Files. I would hope that those who are interested in this will take up those measures as is appropriate.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, will the Minister answer the more general point raised by the noble and right reverend Lord, of whether the Government will institute discussions with Interpol about whether, at the Interpol level, they can mitigate the use of red notices for political reasons? He has given some assurance to the House in regard to the specific case mentioned by the noble and right reverend Lord, but there is a much more general issue at stake here.
Lord Henley
I accept what the noble Lord says, and I will take note of that. He will know that Interpol’s constitution enshrines neutrality, and its Article 3 forbids Interpol’s involvement in political, military, religious and racial matters. The noble Lord will also know that all notices that are issued should be—I stress “should be”—checked by Interpol’s secretariat to ensure that they meet Interpol’s criteria for neutrality. Any that do not should not then be published. The wider point of whether the United Kingdom Government should take this up, or whether it should be taken up by Mr Benny Wenda or his friends, is another matter. However, there are two ways this can be done. First, member Governments can intercede with Interpol, and secondly, there is the procedure by which complaints can be made through the CCF, the Commission for Control of Interpol Files.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
My Lords, I wonder if my noble friend can say whether there is jurisdiction in courts in the United Kingdom to set aside a red notice on the application of a person on whom it has been served?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I am not aware that there is. I want to make it clear that the United Kingdom Government will not either arrest or extradite a person solely on the basis of a red notice. If we are going to extradite someone, it will go through the usual and proper procedures under the Extradition Act 2003.
Lord Blair of Boughton
My Lords, Interpol has suffered for some years, or perhaps for 100 years, from two structural problems. First, it is an organisation that every country in the world, including some very unpleasant ones, can become members of and share intelligence, and secondly, cases like this one arise from time to time.
At the moment both Interpol and Europol work out of the Serious and Organised Crime Agency, which is to be abolished. Will Her Majesty’s Government, and the Minister, be able to reassure the House that when this function moves to the National Crime Agency, a little more attention will be given to both Interpol and Europol as their powers gradually expand?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I am very grateful for the remarks from the noble Lord, who brings enormous experience to these matters, and I can assure him that we will be taking particular notice of this as SOCA moves into the NCA, over the coming months and years, and will make sure that these points are taken up.
I also note what he said about Interpol covering a very large number of countries, some of which we would recognise as having systems similar to our own, while some have systems that are somewhat dubious. Nevertheless, as I made clear earlier, its constitution does enshrine its neutrality. That is very important and we will continue to try to get that across. The United Kingdom Government will make their views clear in the appropriate manner, through the annual general assembly.
Lord Judd
My Lords, while completely associating myself with the concern about this particular case, would the Minister not agree that when we talk about the need for the international rule of law in international justice, we need to be very certain that when action involving individuals is taken, we do not lose sight of holding to account the Governments and people who were responsible for the events which led this man to make his stand?
Lord Henley
My Lords, I repeat that I do not want to comment on this particular case but I think we all know which case it is, because the noble and right reverend Lord has already referred to it. As I said, it is very important to recognise that no one can be extradited solely on the basis of a red notice that has been issued by the Indonesian Government through Interpol. I repeat everything that I said earlier about it being important to keep under review how we work with Interpol, and as an Interpol member the United Kingdom Government will continue to do that.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, as an extension to the question put by the noble Lord, Lord Blair, are the Government satisfied that our own structures are such as to make the best use of the resources available through Interpol, and will be so when we have the reorganisation? I am thinking in particular of missing persons. The cross-matching with unidentified bodies is a very important activity, and currently the Missing Persons Bureau is in the NPIA which will be subject to changes.
Lord Henley
My Lords, Interpol is largely about exchanging information between the member countries, and that is virtually all countries in the world. However, my noble friend makes a very valuable point about the changes that are coming about through the removal of SOCA and its replacement by the NCA. I take on board what she said; it is very important that we ensure that with those changes, we still have the appropriate relationship with Interpol.
Community Justice Centre: North Liverpool
(13 years ago)
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Lord Storey
To ask Her Majesty’s Government to what extent the North Liverpool Community Justice Centre has met its intended objectives, what plans they have for this centre, and what improvements they would envisage to this model if it were to be further replicated.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord McNally)
My Lords, we are evaluating the impact of the centre on reoffending, and on the efficiency of court processes and use of resources. The result will be published by the Ministry of Justice. The centre is continuing to operate and we continue to share its learning across the criminal justice system and court estate.
Lord Storey
I am grateful for my noble friend’s reply. He will know that there is little real hard evidence of this pioneering community court’s work, particularly its involvement in the community itself. What criteria will be used and will those criteria involve the community court itself?
Lord McNally
My Lords, the inquiry is looking at the impact on reoffending and the efficiency of process. Its findings are not yet available for release because that work is not yet completed, but I would find it inconceivable that the court itself and those who work in it had not fed into that inquiry.
The Lord Bishop of Liverpool
My Lords, could the Minister could tell the House whether the Ministry of Justice has done an assessment of areas of deprivation in other cities where a community justice centre would be appropriate?
Lord McNally
No, my Lords, we will look at the impact of this centre before we would contemplate doing this in any other cities, but I take the point made by the right reverend Prelate the Lord Bishop of Liverpool that this is operating in an area of very high deprivation, which I hope will be part of the assessment which the inquiry is making, taking note that it is in a particular area.
Lord Bach
My Lords, in answering a question by the right reverend Prelate on 21 June, the Minister told the House that the evaluation that the Ministry of Justice, I think, is doing internally, would be completed later in the summer. We have had very clement weather for the last few months, but no one could say that it was still summer. Has the evaluation been completed yet? If it has not, when will it be completed, and will the results be published?
Lord McNally
My Lords, it is always dangerous to give even vague dates, like “summer”, in making commitments. The study is still going on. I am confident of the integrity of the research, which is being carried out by Ministry of Justice analysts under the Government social research code. The research will be published by the Ministry of Justice. I think the safest commitment I could make now would be “as soon as possible”
Lord Alton of Liverpool
My Lords, before that research is published, will the noble Lord be wary of comparing oranges with apples? What this North Liverpool Community Justice Centre does is very different from other existing systems elsewhere in the country. This is a pioneering scheme. It was introduced on the advice of my noble and learned friend, Lord Woolf, and was opened by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland. Will the noble Lord ensure that their advice is taken into account and that a genuinely independent assessment is made, and that it will be not be abandoned simply for cost-cutting reasons, which may appear prudent at the time, but in the long term might not save anything at all?
Lord McNally
I hear the “hear, hears”, but of course cost does have to come into all these things. I do genuinely believe that this is being looked at. It is a freestanding experiment, as the noble Lord said, based upon the Red Hook Community Justice Center in New York. The truth is that we are looking at various experiments across the piece, some of which were started by the previous Administration, to find out about the effective administration of justice. I can promise that we are looking for legislative time for a justice reform Bill and that we are also looking at justice delivery in the north-west. The inquiry that the noble Lord, Lord Storey, asked about will be seen as a freestanding contribution without prejudice to the decisions that we have to make in that area.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, this is a unique and very innovative scheme. Can my noble friend, who has given quite positive answers so far, tell us whether the valuation is basically a statistical evaluation based upon reoffending rates, the cost per case and so on, or will the evaluation also involve discussions and interviews with offenders who have gone through the system and hopefully benefited from it, and with other people living in the community who have been affected by it?
Lord McNally
I would hope that it is the kind of more holistic inquiry that my noble friend suggests. That is what we are trying to do, obviously within budgetary constraints. We are examining various ideas and experiments in the United Kingdom, the United States and around the world, to see how best practice and best efficiency can be achieved. That is what we hope will be the outcome of this inquiry and future development of policy.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I wonder whether the noble Lord will be able to tell us whether the learning from the North Liverpool Community Justice Centre that was spread to places like Salford has been and is going to be continued.
Lord McNally
As I understand it, it is continued. As I said in my opening remarks, it is spread across the estate and will continue to do so. I had better not say that it will continue as long as the centre is open, because then you will think of something dubious about that, but it will continue to be spread across the estate.
Education: Music
(13 years ago)
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The Earl of Clancarty
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what support they will give to music education under the National Plan for Music Education published on 25 November.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Schools (Lord Hill of Oareford)
My Lords, the National Plan for Music Education will ensure that all pupils in English schools have the opportunity to learn to play a musical instrument, to make music with others, to learn to sing and to progress to the next level of excellence. We will also continue to fund national youth music organisations, to continue our support for In Harmony and for the internationally recognised Music and Dance Scheme.
The Earl of Clancarty
My Lords, there are big questions about this plan, despite the broad welcome that it has received within the music world. What is the thinking behind the disappointingly massive cuts, of over 30 per cent, to music education as a whole up to 2014? If costs are going to be parked with parents, charities and the private companies who could become music education hub leaders, then this plan will surely not deliver a comprehensive service. Would the Minister agree that if music is dropped from the national curriculum as a guaranteed subject for five to 14 year-olds, then all the fine words in this plan will come to mean very little?
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, as to the second question on whether music will continue to remain a part of the National Curriculum, the noble Earl will know that that is part of what we are looking at in the review of the National Curriculum, and we will make further announcements on that in the next year. I am not able to go further than that.
On his more general point, clearly we are having to work in an environment in which there is less money than we would like. Given that context, the funding that we have managed to retain for these new education hubs is £82.5 million this year, the same as last year, and, I think, £79 million next year. There are further reductions to come; the noble Lord is absolutely right about that. Clearly, our hope is that, through the education hubs that are going to bid for the money and bring together a range of other organisations, they will be able to make sure that there is funding. Other sources of funding—for example, through the pupil premium—could also play a part, but we need to look at that.
Baroness Walmsley
Does my noble friend the Minister agree that to implement the national music plan at the speed at which the Government propose requires a large cadre of very hard-working music teachers? In the light of that, will he try to persuade his right honourable friend the Minister for Schools that the EBacc requires a sixth pillar that includes cultural and vocational subjects, including music? As things stand at the moment, we are losing a lot of music teachers across the country.
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I think one of the reasons why we are losing a number of teachers at secondary school and, in particular, the number of music teachers is dropping is that the number of pupils at secondary schools is dropping. I agree with my noble friend entirely about the importance of making sure that we have really good teachers able to teach music particularly at primary level, and we have plans to improve initial training for music teachers. As far as the EBacc is concerned, my noble friend knows well the Government’s position, which is to concentrate on a small number of subjects that give children the greatest chance of going to strong universities. The Russell Group supports the choice of subjects. However, I know how strongly she feels and that there are pressures from all sides of the House for us to extend the number of subjects in the EBacc.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall
My Lords, I know that the noble Lord’s department no longer has responsibility for higher education, but, following on from the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, would the Minister agree that music teachers have to be trained, that the places where they are mostly trained is in small specialist institutions, such as music conservatoires, and that those conservatoires are currently very anxious about the effect on them of the changes to higher education funding? Will the Minister ask his colleagues in the relevant department to give us an assurance that those institutions will be protected, thus guaranteeing a supply of high-quality music teaching in the future?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I will take up that point, as the noble Baroness asks. As far as my department is concerned, she will know, through the Music and Dance Scheme, that we will continue to make funding available in order to get talented young children going into those conservatoires, which is part of the solution. I will take up her point.
The Lord Bishop of Exeter
My Lords, is the Minister aware of the very considerable body of evidence that attests to the value of music and indeed dance to the personal development of those with special needs, whether it be physical, learning or emotional? Can he give assurances about the continued levels of support and resourcing for music in the special needs sector of our national education system?
Lord Hill of Oareford
Yes, my Lords, I agree with the right reverend Prelate about the important role that music and dance can play. In our national plan there is quite a lot about the role that music technology can play, particularly for those who might have special educational needs. In terms of monitoring how the plan works, we would obviously want to look at and hold to account providers for the way in which they provide services for children of all abilities.
Baroness Warnock
Does the Minister agree that one of the cheapest and most effective forms of music education is choral singing? I know that is mentioned in the pronouncements that he has referred to. Can the Minister confirm whether it might be worth considering having people who are not qualified teachers coming in to schools to set up choirs and get choral singing off the ground? We all know that there are very talented choir masters who have not necessarily qualified as teachers.
Lord Hill of Oareford
I agree very strongly with the noble Baroness about the important role that choral singing and being part of a choir can play. I hope that one of the ways that these new hubs will work is to draw in a much wider range of providers. They will be covering a broader area so that one can get that kind of specialism that one could then extend to a range of schools in an area.
Baroness Jones of Whitchurch
My Lords, there is a great deal to welcome in the national music plan. We particularly welcome the fact that funding—although it involves significant cuts—will be ring-fenced for music education. Does this mean that the Government have now been converted back to the idea of ring-fencing? What does that mean for other children’s services such as Sure Start?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her welcome overall for the shape of the plan and what we are trying to do with it. We are distributing the funding in the way that we are—which relates to the point that I was just making to the noble Baroness, Lady Warnock—because the kind of services that we will provide go across areas where an individual school could not be expected to have that degree of specialism or that range of services or instruments. We think it makes more sense to deliver that through a bigger area.
Business of the House
(13 years ago)
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Lord Strathclyde
That the debate on the motion in the name of Lord Lamont of Lerwick set down for tomorrow in Grand Committee shall be limited to four hours.
Renewable Transport Fuel Obligations (Amendment) Order 2011
(13 years ago)
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Lord Palmer
My Lords, these obligations are covered by no less than four different government departments. Which of the noble Lord the Leader of the House’s ministerial colleagues will be taking this through Grand Committee? I ought to declare an interest as a member of the gang of four who originally persuaded the last Administration to accept the original renewable transport fuel obligation.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, it is good to hear the noble Lord’s interest in the subject. The lead department is the Department for Transport. The departmental spokesman in this House will be speaking to this particular Motion. My noble friend Lord Attlee on the Front Bench will be briefed by other government departments and will speak for the whole Government. Therefore, other government departments who have an interest in this subject will answer any questions that the noble Lord or anybody else will have.
Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill
(13 years ago)
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Lord McNally
That it be an instruction to the Committee of the Whole House to which the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Bill has been committed that they consider the bill in the following order:
Clauses 1 to 8, Schedule 1, Clauses 9 to 23, Schedule 2, Clauses 24 to 30, Schedule 3, Clauses 31 to 37, Schedule 4, Clause 38, Schedule 5, Clause 39, Schedule 6, Clauses 40 to 59, Schedules 7 and 8, Clauses 60 to 64, Schedule 9, Clauses 65 to 82, Schedule 10, Clause 83, Schedule 11, Clauses 84 to 98, Schedule 12, Clauses 99 to 102, Schedule 13, Clause 103, Schedule 14, Clauses 104 to 111, Schedule 15, Clauses 112 to 114, Schedules 16 and 17, Clause 115, Schedule 18, Clause 116, Schedule 19, Clauses 117 to 121, Schedule 20, Clauses 122 to 124, Schedule 21, Clauses 125 to 128, Schedule 22, Clause 129, Schedule 23, Clauses 130 to 137.
Charities Bill [HL]
Health and Social Care Bill
(13 years ago)
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Baroness Emerton
“13O1 Duty as to staffing ratios of registered and non-registered staff
(1) The Board must, in the exercise of its functions, establish for health services, and may subject to regulations establish for other services, the ratio of registered to non-registered workers required at any given time by reference to any appropriate register established for workers in those areas.
(2) In the discharge of this duty the Board must publish a list of appropriate registers for the purpose of subsection (1).
(3) The Board must produce guidance to health services to assist in the maintenance of ratios for the purpose of subsection (1).
(4) The Board must also issue guidance on the maximum and minimum numbers of patients per registered nurse.”
Baroness Emerton
My Lords, while workforce planning is to be a devolved activity at local commissioning level, this Bill states that the overall duty of the national Commissioning Board is to arrange the provision of services for the purposes of the health service in England. Therefore, it would seem appropriate that the national board undertakes to give guidance on a range of issues, as some have already stated, and I would like to see this amendment added. I declare an interest as recorded in the register, speaking as a retired nurse, not named, on the NMC effective register.
The commissioning of the nurses, midwives and health visitors workforce is complex. It covers the community and hospitals; projecting numbers to meet the training requirements; commissioning university places with the right numbers for the services to be provided; and establishing the right number in the right place at the right time. In practice, this requires skilled planners who understand 24-hour service and the different levels of dependency in each speciality, to effect holistic care in hospitals and the community. The economic situation we find ourselves in is already having an effect on workforce numbers. Only a week ago the Royal College of Nursing reported on the effects that the Nicholson £20 billion cut is currently having on services. The detailed analysis by the RCN of 41 trusts revealed that clinical posts were affected, or were planned to be affected. An analysis of the trusts in England showed that the reductions are not only contained within administration, management and other back-room offices, but also affect nursing. Registered nurses are being affected by the freezing of their posts, leading to lower staffing levels, the down-banding of high-grade nursing posts, the loss of specialist skills and those working in preventive services, and cuts in the mental health field, where demand for nursing is rising.
This spells disaster for patients and their families. We know that in Mid-Staffordshire the nurse staffing ratios were changed from 60 per cent registered and 40 per cent support workers, to 40 per cent registered and 60 per cent support workers, in order to make financial cuts, but at what expense? It does not need much intelligence to see that nursing care suffered and the effect was dire.
International research evidence clearly demonstrates that low nurse staffing levels correlate with higher patient mortality and morbidity. We know from evidence in the UK, the United States and Australia that the quality of patient care is affected by the ratios of registered nurses to support workers. The higher the ratio of registered nurses to support workers, the higher the quality of clinical outcome, providing faster throughput and reduced infection rates that in turn reduce readmissions. In addition, the patients receive safe care, and they favour it by way of experience.
To give an example, in a US study, every one patient added to the average hospital-wide nurse workload increased the risk of death following common surgical procedures by 7 per cent. There was a 31 per cent difference in mortality between hospitals in which registered nurses cared for eight patients each and those in which nurses cared for four patients each, taking into account the severity of the patients’ illness, comorbidity conditions and the level of technology and teaching status in the teaching hospitals.
A study in the UK in 2007 found that patients in NHS hospitals in the upper quartile, where nurses had the heaviest patient workload, were 26 per cent more likely to die overall and 29 per cent more likely to die following a complicated stay in hospital. The nurses in the hospitals with the heaviest workload were between 71 per cent and 92 per cent more likely to show negative job outcomes, burnout and job dissatisfaction, and to rate the quality of care on their wards as low and the quality of care in their hospitals as deteriorating. Similar evidence was produced in Australia.
The Bill works towards high-quality, integrated holistic care. Equally important as plans for the hospital workforce in nursing and midwifery are those for the community workforce: community nurses, midwives and health visitors. Last week, the Queen’s Nursing Institute published a report entitled Nursing People at Home, which demonstrated worrying trends in community nursing that could be remedied if more nurses were specifically trained, year on year, to work in the community. It recommended that there should be support for the newly qualified through preceptorship; that healthcare assistants should be regulated; and that commissioners of services should set standards for the qualifications of community team leaders. Likewise, the Royal College of Midwives launched a report last week into the state of maternity services in 2011, recommending that more births take place in midwife-led units and at home, that properly trained and supervised midwife support workers should be appropriately deployed and calling for a guarantee not to cut midwife training places.
There is a common thread running through the recommendations of all three professional bodies that, in essence, supports the amendment. There is widespread concern across the professions that, unless the national Commissioning Board issues guidance on staffing ratios, local commissioning of the workforce could lead to unsafe ratios of trained to untrained staff, resulting in unsafe care and increased cost to the NHS. It is a false economy to meddle with safe ratios. It would be more effective to move quickly towards a totally registered nursing workforce in hospitals, knowing that patients were receiving holistic, high-quality care, leading to shorter stays and reduced readmissions to hospital, resulting in bed closures and real savings.
There is no need for me to go in to more detail. The current situation is very bleak and we are in the midst of amending a Bill that aims to improve the health of the nation and provide high-quality care in hospitals and the community. The latest report and front-line survey by the Royal College of Nursing expresses concern, especially on the urgent issues that face the nursing profession if growing demand is to be met, with the demographic figures showing an urgent need for care of the elderly, the vulnerable, those suffering from long-term conditions and those requiring end-of-life care. We continue to trot out, at every opportunity, that evidence-based clinical care is essential. Will the Minister consider the inclusion of guidance concerning the issues raised by this amendment as a duty of the national Commissioning Board? I beg to move.
Lord Alderdice
My Lords, I have a good deal of sympathy with the thoughts behind the amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, which she has put forward in her usual forceful but thoughtful way. However, there is difficulty in some areas.
The amendment does not state so clearly but it appears to assume that registered and non-registered are the same as trained and untrained. I also draw your Lordships’ attention to something to which I have returned fairly regularly for more than 10 years, the fact that psychotherapists and counsellors are not registered. There is no statutory registration, and yet there are areas of care—for example, in alcoholism and drug addiction, child and adolescent psychiatry and psychotherapy, the care of some very disturbed patients—where psychotherapists, particularly trained ones, and counsellors are extremely important.
Many of these are people with very long trainings, much longer than would be the case, for example, for a nurse. They are well trained people and they are well supervised but there is no register and therefore they would fall foul of a proposal like this. Were it the case that all the appropriate people were not only trained but registered and that therefore one knew that those who were not registered were not fully trained and supervised, I would have a great deal more sympathy with the detail of it.
I have difficulty not with the thought behind this amendment but with the fact that it seems to some extent to ignore some quite important groups. My fear is that if we move down this road, in the new world the pressure will be further against the employment of people who have had substantial psychological training. It has been made clear to me—this is one of the reasons why I use this opportunity—that some of those with a high level of training and a substantial length of experience are already feeling themselves marginalised because the larger professional groups that have registers are using that to strengthen up the stance of their members, which is entirely justifiable and entirely reasonable.
I would be much more reassured and much more able to support the amendment if either it was very clearly and simply referring to trained and registered nurses or unregistered people who are working in nursing, rather than the more general statement which is in the amendment, or—perhaps even better—if my noble friend the Minister was able to indicate that the Government were going to make progress on the registration on those other groups that need to be registered; that involves in particular, from my point of view, psychotherapists and counsellors. However, I do have a good deal of sympathy with what the noble Baroness says.
Baroness Murphy
We have been urged to hurry up today; we have all heard of speed dating so this is going to be speed debating.
When I first read the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, I did not agree with it on the basis that if you legislate for a minimum number of registered people or nurses, there is a tendency for people to adopt the lower level. I have looked at international evidence and I know that 10 years ago in California they mandated by specific legislation a minimum qualified nurse staffing level in surgical wards in intensive care. It has had a dramatic effect not only on the wards in those hospitals but on other hospitals in California where the standards have risen, mortality rates have fallen. There has been a very large study of 8,000 patients in California, and the other two comparative sites were in Pennsylvania and New Jersey; there is no doubt whatever that there has been a dramatic change and a very positive change, and most hospitals staff above the minimum. Those fears have not been founded.
The Dr Foster document that came out this week clearly showed the relationship that we know about internationally between poor staffing levels on wards for older people and mortality rates and care levels, and its relation to the morale of staff who work on those wards. I am, almost reluctantly, driven to accept the wisdom of the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, which I support.
Lord Walton of Detchant
My Lords, I, too, wish to support the principles underlying the amendment proposed by my noble friend Lady Emerton. However, one concern I have particularly relates to paragraph (4) of Amendment 139. Concerns have been expressed in many quarters over the past two years about the variable quality of the health care assistants employed in many of our hospitals. Some of them are absolutely excellent, but some of them—particularly in certain care homes—have had very little training and there is no process at the moment by which such care assistants can be registered; nor is there any formal requirement of a specific training or educational programme for these individuals. The time is approaching when there must be minimum standards of education and training laid down for such people. I trust that, in relation to what is said in paragraph (4), we can have an assurance from the Minister that this is an issue that the Government will consider.
As the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, said, the same problems arise in relation to psychologists. Clinical psychologists have a formal training programme but not all psychotherapists, who do not hold a medical qualification—they do not have any such programme, although many of them make an outstanding contribution. The regulation of psychologists has been discussed for several years but little progress has been made. Can the Minister tell us whether that is still under consideration?
My final point relates to the fact that the regulation and registration of many of the other professions working in the NHS, in hospitals and the community—occupational therapists, physiotherapists and others—of course comes under the Health Professions Council. This is a Health and Social Care Bill. Only two years ago, a statutory authority for the registration and regulation of social workers was created, the General Social Care Council, and that body is in existence. I want to ask the Minister: is it proposed, as I believe is the case, that the Government are going to bring that body within the ambit of the Health Professions Council, or are they going to make it subject to the oversight of the council for regulatory excellence? That is a matter upon which the Committee needs to be reassured.
Lord MacKenzie of Culkein
My Lords, my name is down on this group of amendments. I very much agree with what the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, said about the situation in California, because the importance of being attached to the mandated levels of staff is self-evident from that.
This issue has been around for as long as I can remember. It was around when I was practising a long time ago. It was around when as a leader of a predominantly nursing trade union I had discussions with health departments in the days when there was perhaps more famine than feast in nursing levels. However, Ministers and Secretaries of State never seem to want to make a real effort to engage with stakeholders on this difficult issue.
There have been a number of efforts over the years, a number of tools used to measure patient dependency to staffing levels and to skill mix ratios as an adjunct to professional judgment. Some of these were useful, some—particularly imports from abroad—were much less so. I can remember one of them, an import from the USA, probably at some considerable expense, which was known by the particularly ugly acronym of GRASP. That stood for, if I remember correctly, “the Grace Reynolds Application and Study of PETO”—I am never quite sure who or what “PETO” was. It sought to measure direct care activities and interventions, so that the correct nursing staff levels were always available. In reality, that tool caused uproar, because far too often it managed to show that wards were overstaffed when the reality was that staff were struggling.
There have been other, more useful, tools and systems, but some of them used up a lot of nursing time on paperwork, and more often than not, nurse managers had to retreat in the face of financial pressures. They have to retreat in the face of financial pressures because there is no mandate to defend a professional judgment in the face of these financial pressures. There is no agreed ratio of nurses to numbers of patients, and no agreed ratio of trained nurses to healthcare assistants.
That is the issue addressed in these amendments, and if the wording is defective, as the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, is suggesting, I really want to concentrate on nursing here, and if need be we can bring that back at Report. We cannot escape the fact that the correct levels of staffing, with the correct skill mix ratios, are vital for the proper level of care, whether that is in acute wards, in primary care or in care homes.
Healthcare is complex, and I am not suggesting for one moment that the correct staffing level will in itself always guarantee good technical and good compassionate nursing care. However, it is a sine qua non that getting staffing and skill-mix ratios wrong means that it is difficult, if not impossible, for nurses and midwives to deliver anything like the high quality care that they want to deliver. We know that outcomes and mortality are affected, and I associate myself with the figures given by the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton.
Given the fears about financial pressures relating to future reductions in clinical posts—and certainly in relation to frontline nursing posts—it is no good for the Government to express expectations that quality is going to be improved or maintained without taking steps to ensure that their expectations are translated into reality and into practice. There will be more problems to come, as in the recent CQC report, as evidenced in the inquiries into the Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust, unless the steps proposed in these two amendments, or something like them, are taken on board.
We all want the best for patients and these amendments will go some of the way to ensuring that that will be the reality for the future. A mandated guarantee of safe staffing levels and ratios is essential for one principal reason and one principal reason only—patient safety and outcomes. These amendments have my wholehearted support and I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
My Lords, I added my name to these amendments, so eloquently introduced, with the evidence behind them informed by my noble friend Lady Emerton. It is important to state that these amendments may not be perfectly worded, as the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, has pointed out, but the principle behind them has a lot of evidence to it. This is not about protection of a certain number of jobs; this is about the fact that you cannot substitute without having skills, competencies and attitudinal evaluation within a particular area.
There may be staff at different grades who will work in a complementary way and there is complementarity, but you cannot substitute. Physio assistants cannot be used to do what physiotherapists do. The same applies right across the piece. It is not just baseline qualifications, however; it is all the other layers as well. You do not want to be in an intensive care unit nursed by trained nurses who are not fully trained in those ventilators that are in use on that unit, who do not have all the additional skills as well and cannot communicate with patients in that situation and with their families.
As the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, said, the evidence is overwhelming when you look at intensive care units but it goes right across the piece. I would like to cite briefly what we tried to do in Wales in my own discipline. We set minimum levels for the level of staff and the competencies for palliative care across the whole of Wales. It was not easy to do but it has worked and it has been a lever to drive up standards and drive up quality and to get some people to increase their training and go back to doing more training, without it incurring additional cost.
I recommend to the Minister that the Government look carefully at this amendment and think about some way of ensuring that patients across the whole of the UK will know that they will be looked after by people with the appropriate competencies and that, in times of financial stringency, we do not find that people revert to substitution as a misguided way of saving money which will be at the expense of quality if not at the expense of more than that.
Lord Newton of Braintree
My Lords, I wonder if I might come in on the side of the “sympathy but” brigade, which makes me a member of the same club as all those who have spoken before me. I have a lot of sympathy with the purpose of the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, but I worry about the rigidity of their terms in relation to specifying ratios and a maximum number of people that any nurse can deal with. It seems to me that this is a prescription for a degree of inflexibility that could end up closing wards for reasons that would not be sensible.
I am scarred by something that happened at Birmingham Children’s Hospital in my period as Minister for Health; it arose from a shortage of paediatric intensive care nurses. I do not know whether they are still in short supply but that is the kind of problem that would be exaggerated by this kind of rigidity. Nevertheless, the basic thrust of the amendment must be right.
There is only one other point I really want to make. As I understand it, my noble friend is likely to say that this is not something for the health Commissioning Board, but for the Care Quality Commission. I do not accept that. The Care Quality Commission will be doing snapshots, perhaps a bit more vigorously than it has done in the past, sometimes unannounced and so forth, but nevertheless more often than not there will be a snapshot of the situation at a particular time. I cannot see that the Commissioning Board can commission services without specifying something about the standard at which it expects that service to be provided, and that is relevant to this question of staffing levels in a general sense. So while I believe that it would be wrong to say this is all a matter for the Care Quality Commission, equally I do not believe it would be right to be as rigid as some parts of the amendments are at present.
Lord Patel
My Lords, I have my name to this amendment and I support it. I agree with all the comments that the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, has made. I have only two brief comments. One is based on the evidence and the strength of that evidence. The noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, mentioned California, which passed a law based on the evidence. So what is the strength of this evidence? I have looked at the literature, particularly at meta-analysis of all the literature that is produced relating to staffing levels and patient outcomes, including mortality. Meta-analysis involves looking at all the published literature and its methodology, and only those publications with a methodology that is felt to be good are included in the meta-analysis. The meta-analysis clearly shows that if you look at mortality, infection rates, response to arrest and serious episodes, the staffing ratios of registered, trained nurses to patients—I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, that training is important—are important in delivering good outcomes.
The second issue is related to whose responsibility it might be to produce the guidance. If it is not the national Commissioning Board, then it ought to be the commissioners of services—the commissioning groups—that should be asked to consider the staffing ratios of each and every department in the provider’s unit before making contracts with them.
Baroness Pitkeathley
My Lords, we shall have extensive debates about regulation at a later stage of the Bill, but it is important to remind the Committee that the ability to regulate healthcare assistants and quality assure them already exists for employers without the need for further statutory regulation. Perhaps in my role as chair of the Council for Healthcare Regulatory Excellence it might be convenient for the Committee and perhaps save the Minister a little time if I respond to the points made by the noble Lords, Lord Alderdice and Lord Walton of Detchant.
The Council for Healthcare Regulatory Excellence, in its new guise as the Professional Standards Authority, will be given the role of quality-assuring voluntary registers. Talks with psychotherapists are already under way and are going very well. The General Social Care Council is going to become part of the HPC, which will in turn change its name and be overseen by what will then become the Professional Standards Authority. That is just for the clarification of the Committee.
Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, I have listened to what has been said by all these expert professionals and I am very much persuaded in favour of something along the lines of this amendment. I think that one of the most worrying things from the public viewpoint has been the sheer number of concerns about nursing that we have had in the press—not least, I may say, about the mortality rates et cetera going up during weekend staffing. Quite clearly there is a need for better reorganisation.
I go back quite a long way, to the time when I sat on the Briggs committee on the future of the nursing profession, and will never forget one of the nurses saying to me at the time: “I’ve been nursing for”—however long it was; she had just got her qualification—“and now I’m going to have a rest”, which was roughly what she was up to. I had a great deal of sympathy with her from that viewpoint.
I hope the Minister will bear in mind—I am sure that he must be more than aware of it—that the number of cuts in nursing staff are considerable in the present plan. Something like 8.3 per cent of qualified nursing jobs are to be lost. As the Royal College of Nursing pointed out in its briefing, that is on top of something that was done no less than about 18 months ago and is more than 10 times the original figure. Axing up to a quarter or a third of nursing posts will undoubtedly have a deep and potentially dangerous impact on patient care. Of course the training of the nurses—the experts in the really expert places—is essential. The training and up-skilling of those nurses on the real needs of patients is vitally important, but so are the numbers.
Baroness Thornton
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and my noble friend Lord MacKenzie and other noble Lords for bringing these important amendments into Committee. Amendments 138 and 139 make provision for the NHS Commissioning Board to mandate safe nursing staffing levels and the number of patients a registered nurse is designated to care for. At the risk of stating the absolutely obvious about safe and effective staffing levels and patient ratios, where there are insufficient nurses and too many patients allocated to care for, then the level of care that can be administered will be affected. These amendments are about patient safety and well-being and the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, hit the nail on the head. In response to her remark about speeches and the length of speeches, my observation, which is shared on these Benches, is that the Cross-Benchers are not the problem. They have been making admirably short and speedy comments. I hope that mine will be also. Other noble Lords might think about that.
This is a current problem as well as a long-term problem. As my noble friend Lord MacKenzie said, it has been with us for a long time, but it is current at the moment. The Royal College of Nursing tells us that some NHS trusts are diluting the skill mix on wards and in other care environments. This dilution is when non-registered healthcare support workers are employed in the place of a registered nurse. Healthcare support workers are paid—as one might guess—significantly less than registered nurses due to their comparative lack of vocational qualifications, so are seen by employers as a cheaper option. We think that that potentially puts patient safety at risk. Recent research by the Nursing Times has highlighted a significant variation in skill mixes between different hospitals in different regions. It seems to us that when cost becomes the overriding factor at the expense of the quality of service, patient outcomes and even patient safety become endangered. The most high-profile recent example of this was the care failings of the Mid-Staffordshire NHS Trust. Sadly, due to a range of factors—including financial pressures—costs were cut, nursing staffing levels were reduced and patient safety declined. It is vital, therefore, that stakeholders, including the RCN, work together with the national Commissioning Board to set the appropriate staffing levels and standards. There is some evidence from the NHS Information Centre that there is an accumulating problem here. Between January and August, the decline in terms of full-time equivalents in nursing, midwifery and health visiting staff in England fell by 1.6 per cent, from 310,989 to 306,028. There is evidence of a growing problem.
I would like to ask the Minister about an exchange in October when the Secretary of State gave evidence to a Select Committee. He stated that he was not aware of the down-banding, which is the issue at stake here, relating to the ratio. He was not aware that this was a problem or that the Royal College of Nursing had raised it with him. The Director of Nursing at the Royal College of Nursing then gave evidence to the same Select Committee the following day. She claimed that the Secretary of State was aware of down-banding practices; that the Royal College of Nursing, among others, had drawn it to his attention; and that it was a matter of some concern. I ask the Minister whether the department is aware that this is a problem and what it is intending to do about it.
These Benches support the amendments, and we are keen that this issue should be addressed robustly.
Earl Howe
My Lords, these amendments from the noble Baroness, Lady Emerton, clearly reflect an important issue: that there should always be appropriately skilled staff available to meet a patient's healthcare needs. I appreciate the concern behind the amendments and recognise the central point of principle; nor am I in a position to contest the evidence that has been cited by various noble Lords. I do not wish to do that. Where I am afraid I part company with the noble Baroness is in her argument that it would be appropriate for the board to mandate staffing levels or skills mix within local services. Although she would probably expect me to say this, these decisions really are best made by local clinicians and managers on the ground.
As the noble Baroness will know, determining staff requirements is not an exact science. The number of staff on wards and ratios between nurses and patients, and between nurses and healthcare assistants, will vary according to such things as the individual needs of patients, their levels of acuity and dependency, the nature of the clinical care they require and the layout of the clinical area. It is right that nurse leaders, doctors and managers have the freedom to agree their own staff profiles. This gives them the flexibility to respond swiftly to changes in patient demand to ensure safety and quality. Rigid ratios really are not the way to do this.
In being responsive to different situations, providers of NHS services are expected to meet their obligations under the NHS constitution—which, incidentally, they do not have in California. This states that patients have the right to be treated with a professional standard of care by appropriately qualified and experienced staff. Suggested nursing staff ratios and the proportions of registered to unregistered staff are, of course, available from, for example, the Royal College of Nursing. But it would itself say that these should be used only as a guide and as the basis from which to ask questions about staffing if there are wide variations from the suggested norms. The amendments say the board’s duty is to establish or mandate “the ratio” as a legal requirement. That is simply not appropriate.
The other reason why I resist these amendments is that there is already a regulator overseeing these kinds of safety issues. All providers of regulated activities, including NHS providers, must be registered with the Care Quality Commission and meet the essential requirements around safety and quality. These include a requirement to take appropriate steps to ensure that, at all times, there are sufficient numbers of suitably qualified, skilled and experienced persons employed for the purpose of carrying on the regulated activity. That is an essential standard. Compliance with it is assessed as part of the registration process as well as ongoing monitoring. So it is not, as my noble friend Lord Newton suggested, just a question of a snapshot.
What follows from this is that it is unacceptable for organisations to persistently fail to ensure that there are enough skilled and competent staff to deliver the care required; and the Care Quality Commission can take independent action where an organisation is not taking appropriate steps to ensure that there are sufficient numbers of suitable staff at all times. If the CQC judges that an organisation has failed to comply with any of the requirements for registration, then that organisation has committed an offence. That is a very powerful sanction. So while I completely agree that it is important to monitor these issues carefully, I do not agree that it is necessary to create a role for the board in this regard. A role for the board would prevent the necessary flexibility in local decision-making, and interfere with the role of the Care Quality Commission, and indeed the future role of Health Education England. That would not be desirable.
Various questions were asked of me about other professional groups besides nurses. I happen to know that, in answer to the noble Lord, Lord Walton, clinical psychologists are already subject to mandatory registration with the Health Professions Council under the title of practitioner psychologists. As regards other groups, a number of points were raised about non-registered workers, including their education and training, and the Government’s position with regard to those matters. I suggest that we will come to those matters when we reach Part 7, and it is perhaps more appropriate that we tackle them at that point.
The noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, asked me whether the Department of Health was aware of the problem of down-banding. We are aware of concerns in this area from the Royal College of Nursing and others. We are of course committed to ensuring that safety is a priority across the NHS, and we are looking at the concerns within that context.
That is essentially the Government’s position. It is not that we are unsympathetic to the point of principle to which the noble Baroness has drawn attention, but we think that there are mechanisms already in place to address those issues, and that it is essentially a matter of local and clinical and managerial judgment.
Baroness Emerton
My Lords, I thank the noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, which has opened up many questions. I thank the Minister for his answer. There is one point that I would take issue with, which is the Care Quality Commission, because it is almost too late if the Care Quality Commission comes in when there is a failing. We are trying to prevent failings, and move forward. There is an issue there, in determining the ratios.
I agree that it is for the local commissioners to be involved in the planning, but it is such a complex issue that, as we move into the care quality groups, there is an issue in terms of their expertise in being able to do this. This is why I raise the issue, supported by the Royal College of Nursing, which is very close to the scene. I appreciate that that is where it should be, and perhaps the way forward is to make sure that there is training in the workforce planning issues. It is complex. As has already been said, it concerns not just nursing but also the other disciplines. The evidence that has been shown ought to be followed up, and I ask that the Minister take that away, so that we can look at the evidence. There is an article today in the nursing press demonstrating quite clearly that morbidity and mortality is reduced by a higher level of trained staff. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Warner
Lord Warner
My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 146, 148 and 149 in my name, and in support of Amendment 151, which the noble Lord, Lord Patel will speak to. These amendments are about keeping in check the cost of running the biggest quango in the country and holding it to account, through published information on its financial and service performance in the main part of its job, which is commissioning NHS services either directly or through clinical commissioning groups. My Lords, I fully accept that it is not common to put budgetary control of new bodies in the Bill that creates them. However, it is not that common to create a new huge quango that will be spending in excess of £80 billion pounds a year. As someone with long experience of quangos, I am only too aware of their capacity to grow their management budgets and roles, often through mission creep and always with plausible reasons for doing so.
When these bodies have regional and local arms, as seems increasingly likely to be the case with the national Commissioning Board, their scope for consuming more taxpayers’ money is only increased. These bodies are notoriously difficult to control in terms of their running costs and their activities over time. The history of British public administration is littered with examples of Parliament setting up bodies and then finding a decade later that they have grown in size and cost much more to run than was originally intended. That is why every so often, under successive Governments, we have culls, mergers and budget cuts to these bodies, as we have seen recently, and it particularly occurs when their running costs clearly become disproportionate to what they are actually delivering.
I do not usually do prediction, but I can predict with absolute certainty that the national Commissioning Board will follow the trajectory I have outlined, whatever well-meaning assurances the Minister gives us and whatever honeyed words are uttered by its chairman and chief executive. Our job in Parliament is to frame the Bill so that they are more likely to deliver those assurances in practice. I suggest that from the outset the Bill should impose constraints on the board’s running costs, not only to ensure that the maximum amount of NHS budget goes on delivery of front-line services but also to thwart the growth of bureaucratic procedures and curb the temptation for the board to become excessively controlling of local initiatives. We are already hearing concerns from clinicians who will be undertaking commissioning about the board becoming too controlling and, some would say, too big for its boots.
It is to these ends that I have framed Amendments 146, 148 and 149. Amendment 146 makes it clear that the board’s annual business plan must clearly state its proposed operating costs. This will enable everyone to see what they are as a proportion of total expenditure and to make comparisons over time. Amendment 148 is the really meaty amendment in this trio because it tries to make clear that from the outset the board’s operating costs are going to be controlled. It proposes that its base operating costs should be 30 per cent lower than those incurred by the predecessor bodies whose functions will be transferred to the board.
The Government say they want to cut bureaucracy—here is an opportunity to show what they are made of. Figures would be audited under this amendment by the National Audit Office but the Secretary of State could change the discount rate of 30 per cent shown in this amendment if he published reasons for doing so. In subsequent years the board’s operating costs could not go up by more than a price increase in line with the consumer price index, unless authorised by the Secretary of State. I am sure there will be lots of arguments about these kinds of amendments being inappropriate in primary legislation and the inflexibility they will cause—well, they are intended to cause a bit of inflexibility—but if the board’s operating costs increased by just 1 per cent of the total expenditure over a number of years, that would be another £1 billion spent on administration rather than service delivery.
In the tight financial climate that all public services face, it is incumbent upon us as parliamentarians to reduce from the outset the risk of the board’s operating costs getting out of control, given the size and scale of its expenditure. Amendment 149 tries to complete the controls by requiring the board’s annual report to include a statement on the financial and service performance of its own commissioning and that of clinical commissioning groups collectively. We need to know on a regular basis what the board is delivering for a given amount of money. If my wording can be improved, I would be delighted, but this is too important and potentially expensive an issue to be brushed aside by vague assurances. I promise the Minister I shall be terrier-like on this particular issue.
Lord Beecham
My Lords, these amendments deal specifically with the national Commissioning Board, but of course the issue of costs and bureaucracy extends well beyond this particular creation of the Bill. In fact, the Bill establishes something like a new health solar system, at the centre of which of course will be the Secretary of State, a perhaps rather dimmer sun than we would like to see—some of us, at any rate—but nevertheless at the centre of a system in which he will circled by a veritable constellation of boards and bodies. Along with the national Commissioning Board and its wonderfully euphemistically named “field offices”, which, as we understand it, will effectively be local commissioning boards of some kind, there will be Monitor, the clinical commissioning groups, clinical senates, clinical networks, directors of public health embedded in local government, Public Health England with perhaps four regional hubs, and 25 local units of the Health Protection Agency. There will still be some special health authorities and of course NICE. All of this is a formidable complex of organisations and the risks to which my noble friend has referred of the escalating costs of bureaucracy are self-evident.
There are particular examples of that, and the noble Lord, Lord Warner, touched on the question of support for commissioning. The recent draft recommendations that the Government have produced about that raise concerns about how that will function and about the costs involved. My noble friend referred to the National Audit Office looking particularly at the national Commissioning Board, but it seems to me that the abolition of the Audit Commission is something that the Government and the public generally may come to regret. Its rather more extensive and comparative work in looking at the way the health service operates, and indeed the way local government operates, will not be entirely replicated by the National Audit Office, perhaps ultimately to the detriment of the service.
I want to look not just at the long-term future but at the immediate costs of the reorganisation envisaged by the Bill, because this week saw the publication of the aptly named Operating Framework for the NHS in England 2012-13, which contains a reference to a requirement for all primary care trusts to set aside 2 per cent of their recurrent funding for non-recurrent expenditure purposes. That has been the case for the last couple of years and that non-recurrent expenditure has been effectively devoted to the service itself. The current framework suggests that:
“The non-recurrent cost of organisational and system change … will need to be met from the 2 per cent”—
in effect, the cost of this Bill and its implementation. Is the Minister in a position to say how much of that 2 per cent, which is estimated to amount to some £3.4 billion, will be devoted to these non-recurrent costs of the system change? Can he also give an indication of the costs of working through the structures of the national Commissioning Board and other bodies that the amendments directly address?
I have sympathy with the aspirations of my noble friend in moving these amendments although, as he acknowledged, it would be somewhat unusual to place restrictions of this kind on the face of the Bill. It will be important to hear the Minister’s views about how the future finances can be managed.
Baroness Tonge
Before the noble Lord sits down, I would like to remind him and the House that several Committee sessions ago, I asked the Minister to find out how much it is going to cost to disband the primary care trusts and how much it will cost to set up the clinical commissioning groups. I think this is all very relevant in this question—that we have absolutely no idea at all how much the change in bureaucracy is going to cost.
Lord Beecham
The noble Baroness encapsulates in about two minutes the thrust of what I said in five; she is precisely right. There are clearly going to be costs—redundancy costs, relocation costs and property costs—which we have not yet seen clarified in the case of the Audit Commission which I mentioned despite the fact that the proposal has been around for 18 months. It would be enlightening if the Minister responded to my question and that of the noble Baroness.
Lord Mawhinney
I share the view expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, of extending appreciation to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, for raising this issue because it seems to me to be one of some significance. Those of us who strongly support my noble friend and what the Government are doing in establishing commissioning-led services do so because, first, we think patients are likely to get a better deal out of it than they get under the present bureaucratic system and, secondly, because we have concerns about the efficiencies of SHAs and PCTs; in my case, that relates particularly to the activities of the East of England Strategic Health Authority.
I hope my noble friend will not deem a probing amendment about cost to be antagonistic or inappropriate. My reaction to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Warner, in its present form is much the same as the reaction of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. I like the idea, I think it is helpful to this Committee to have more information although I am not sure that this form is actually the way in which that should be done. I hope my noble friend will be as generous as he instinctively and normally is in giving us as much information about costs as he can. If 30 per cent seems very high to him, as it does to me given the realities of setting up a new system, perhaps he would indicate what savings he thinks might be achievable if there was a sufficiently stringent regime in place to control costs.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I recognise from everything the noble Lord, Lord Warner, said that these amendments have been proposed with the best of intentions. I start by making it clear that an independent, accountable, transparent and efficient NHS Commissioning Board is a key component of our proposals, so I hope I can reassure the Committee on these issues. In doing so, I hope my Lords will forgive me if I touch on similar ground to that covered during the debate on Schedule 1.
Let me first assure the Committee that we want to reduce the amount of NHS funding spent on back-office bureaucracy. Indeed, as we stated in last year’s White Paper, the NHS simply cannot continue to afford to support the costs of the existing administrative structure. Management costs in PCTs and SHAs more than doubled in the decade up to 2009-10, to £1.85 billion, increasing by more than £220 million in 2009-10 alone.
The noble Lord, Lord Warner, posed the question: what is different this time? Well, I believe a great deal will be different, and that is exactly why Clause 21 provides the Secretary of State with the power to set a limit on the use of resources by the board itself and by the board and CCGs together in relation to administrative matters. The meaning of what is to be considered as administrative matters will be defined through parliamentary regulations for the first time. The board has the power to set similar limits for individual CCGs. The changes that we are making will cut the overall cost of administration by one-third, and Clause 21 gives us the legislative basis to do that.
The Bill includes clear procedures around the publication of the board’s annual accounts, annual reports and performance assessments of CCGs; and I hope that I can provide reassurance in this area as well. The requirement to publish an annual report applies to all of the board’s functions, including its commissioning and financial functions and its performance assessments of clinical commissioning groups. The board is also under a separate duty to publish a report each year containing a summary of the results of each performance assessment. So I do think that the provisions in the Bill already address the concerns embodied in Amendments 146, 148 and 149.
On Amendment 151, which is grouped here, the board’s power in new Section 13X(b),
“to acquire and dispose of property”,
is necessary for the board to acquire any premises that it needs to accommodate itself for the purpose of carrying out its functions. Likewise, should it find itself with property surplus to its requirements, it would need to be able to divest itself of that property. The power simply replicates the power that PCTs currently have.
My noble friend Lady Tonge asked about the costs of transition. The modernisation programme will have one-off costs of between £1.2 billion and £1.3 billion, spread over the lifetime of this Parliament. It will reduce expenditure on administration by £1.5 billion a year from 2014-15 onwards. That is reducing the administrative spending across the system by one-third, and over this Parliament the modernisation will save £4.5 billion gross, or £3.2 billion to £3.3 billion net. So the up-front costs are expected to be more than recouped by the end of 2012-13. With those explanations, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Warner, will be somewhat reassured. I am sure that I have not completely reassured him, but I hope that I have done so sufficiently for him to withdraw his amendment.
Lord Warner
Can the noble Earl explain to us, in writing, the comparison between the current costs of the bodies carrying out functions that are going to be transferred to the board, and what the Government’s current estimate is of the first year’s fully fledged activities of the board in discharging those functions? It would be very helpful and certainly more convincing to me and, I suspect, other Members of this House if we could see the comparative figures just for the board. I am not asking him to go into Monitor or CQC; I am asking for the figures just for the board taking on the functions that it will be taking on.
Secondly, his response did not really deal with the issue of how you keep these costs under control as the years go by. Is he relying only on the Secretary of State being eagle-eyed and briefed by his civil servants to do it, or do the Government have in mind an uprating mechanism that would curb unnecessary growth in this area?
Earl Howe
This is one area where the Secretary of State has a direct interest to ensure that administrative costs are kept low. In answer to the noble Lord’s first question, of course I would be happy to write. There is already a great deal in the impact assessment, to which I would direct noble Lords’ attention. However, I shall be happy to write an individual letter to him and copy it to noble Lords in answer to the questions that he posed.
Lord Beecham
When the Minister writes to us about the risk register, would he indicate whether this topic of the cost will be referred to?
Lord Beecham
Does the list of issues that are covered in the risk register include the question of the costs of transition and reorganisation?
Baroness Bakewell
“( ) how effectively the NHS services meet the needs of the older population”
Baroness Bakewell
My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendment 150B and 320ZB. As with the others that I have proposed to this Bill, my amendments are all associated with one running theme: meeting the needs of older people. First, I propose that the annual report of the NHS Commissioning Board should be measured by how effectively it meets the needs of older people. Thus, I am separating out a particular cohort of people for whom particular attention needs to be made. Why do I do that? It must surely be obvious every day that we read the papers and every occasion when stories run in the media of inappropriate treatment of older people in hospitals, care homes and nursing homes. They are not getting the treatment that they should and the public know this and care about it.
My major amendment stands aside from the many other amendments to this Bill so far that have dealt with new structures, responsibilities, commissioning and safeguards. The purpose of this amendment is to test views on the creation of a role of commissioner for older people. There are many reasons why such a post becomes increasingly pressing. You may well be familiar with them. First, there are the demographics. The statistics are familiar and frightening. There are 10 million people now over 65 in the UK. By 2034, 23 per cent of the population will be over 65. Of them, 3.5 million will be over 85. Such proportions of the population will constitute by far the highest percentage of users of healthcare and specifically of social care in this country. Old age is not a condition you cure. We are not hoping that old people will get better. Scientific advances will not find miracle cures that reduce the incidence of old age. Medical science will paradoxically be increasing the numbers in this cohort. This change constitutes one of the largest challenges that developed societies have to face. The situation is the same in Japan, America and Canada. This is where the human race is going. I feel that there is little appreciation of the scale of what it is to meet those needs.
All the detail and complexity of this Bill and the debates that we are having about it concern the replacement of one complex structure of the NHS with another. We have been debating in detail the network of relationships between the NHS Commissioning Board, the CCGs, HealthWatch England, the CQC, the local HealthWatch organisations and the role of Monitor. All this abundance of well intended organisational ways of meeting the needs of patients does not take on the bigger picture facing the future.
The old are a different cohort. We will all one day be patients. Before that, as people age they become needful of different provisions of social care. Social care is in the title of this Bill. They will need meals on wheels, transport provision, adapted housing and all the things that provide for a living that, while not being an illness, is not as independent as it once was.
Such a commissioner for the old already exists. Such an independent statutory body with an overview of all people aged 60 and over was created in Wales in 2006. It exists to promote the interests of older people and improve their lives. Among the crucial things its first commissioner, Ruth Marks, does is to promote awareness and challenge age discrimination. She also offers ongoing assistance for older people who contact her with problems. She is often dealing with complex issues that involve all the various public bodies and that individuals cannot cope with. In the commissioner, they have one person that they can turn to to help them through this web of public bodies. This unique help, individual to individual, through the complex world of health and social care provision, seems to me to be of overriding merit and appropriate in the discussion of this Bill. Northern Ireland also has such a figure, known as the Older People’s Advocate, currently in the person of Dame Joan Harbison. We already have a Children’s Commissioner, created by the Children Act 2004. This could act as a template for a commissioner for the old—to hear and then promote the views and concerns of individuals and to involve them in the discharge of the health service function.
In 2008, I was invited by the Government Equalities Office initially to be a champion, which I thought was bit aggressive; then I was invited to be an ambassador, which sounded rather diplomatic; and I volunteered to be a voice. Not only because I am a broadcaster, I thought that people want a voice and they know what it means. When Harriet Harman asked me to do this, she nodded in my direction and said that of course it was uncharted waters. Indeed it was. Neither of us realised what the reaction would be. I was inundated with complaints of every conceivable kind. Health sometimes, hospitals often, pensions frequently, but also things like the closing of public loos or ex-pats in Spain worrying about their heating allowance.
Some of them were very strange requests indeed—how would I get people’s savings out of the Icelandic financial system? I had to respond by sorting out the networks of support that exist—Citizens Advice Bureaux, Age UK, MPs and local authorities. It was a rigmarole of roundabout ways in which people could have a satisfactory answer to their personal problem.
Time has moved on. My role was a part-time, amateur job. We are now into the serious matter of considering the old. Old age now has a high profile. The newspapers are on board. The media follow such stories. We owe to them the revelation of the many scandals that exist. Architects are concerned and interested in designing lifelong homes. The co-housing movement is on the go. Martha Lane Fox is campaigning to get the old on the internet. There is a multiplicity of age-related websites. You can adopt a granny. You can adopt an old person’s garden. There are thousands of such websites but none of them answer the single requirement to have one person who is on your side. The Liberal Democrat conference in September debated such a policy motion, calling for a commissioner for the old. This is an idea whose time has come. I beg to move.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
My Lords, I apologise to the House for missing the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell’s opening remarks. I simply point out that we have an Older People’s Commissioner for Wales, Ruth Marks. In March 2010 she led an inquiry into care in hospitals, called Dignified Care? By November this year, she was satisfied that the 12 recommendations from its in-depth and hard-hitting report had been met. She is now using her powers to drive forward additional adult protection legislation and a nursing home review. It is only with legal powers and leadership that we can really turn care round. I believe that such a post is more than cost-effective. I really recommend that the Government look hard at having an older people’s commissioner for England because we know that there is a big problem there. Such a post will more than save its cost.
Baroness Jolly
My Lords, I support the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, in her plea for a commissioner for older people. As she indicated, it has been a long-standing commitment of our party, which was put into party policy last September. Prior to the general election, we had a spokesman in the other place on older people’s issues, and there was a general election manifesto commitment. So we were right there and, as the noble Baroness has indicated, she has form in this regard too.
The Welsh commissioner for older people actually started life in your Lordships’ House before going to the other place, and the appointment was made in 2008. I have talked to Welsh colleagues over the last week and they have been really enthusiastic about the work that has been done and the progress made in Wales. So if it can happen in Wales, maybe we need to think about England too. The Welsh ambassador has similar responsibilities to those in the noble Baroness’s amendment. The role also has powers of investigation, entry and interview. I wish that we could be more ambitious with this older persons’ commissioner and extend the scope. As the noble Baroness said, there are so many issues that worry old people. Health and social care are clearly at the top of the list, but there are also pensions, housing, transport, leisure, even banking. Clearly there is a need for some sort of signposting centre for old people which somebody has to grasp and make it work.
The Government start a consultation on social care in the new year, and I know that my honourable friend Paul Burstow, the Minister for social care, is also keen on this particular issue, so I am really pleased to support this. Could my noble friend the Minister clarify whether an older person’s commissioner, or something similar, would be on the list of possibles, probables or definites for the next Bill?
Lord Walton of Detchant
My Lords, it will not surprise your Lordships to learn that this is an issue in which I take an increasing personal interest. Having said that, I should add that there are islands of great excellence in relation to studies of the care of the elderly in the UK. Professor Linda Partridge is doing wonderful work in University College Hospital, and I have an avuncular interest in the important Institute for Ageing and Health, chaired by Professor Tom Kirkwood, in Newcastle. These are islands in which the care of the elderly and the research into ageing processes is being carried forward. The problem is far wider. The problem is with standards of care in the community, in care homes and in our hospitals, where it is perfectly clear that standards have become very uneven. We have heard all too many stories in the press about inadequate care. For this reason, I believe that it is absolutely right to follow up the proposal made by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell. I think that England needs a commissioner. There is even a possible case to be made out for establishing a clinical network relating to the care of the elderly. Basically, most clinical networks have been disease-orientated, related to specific diseases, but this problem is now one of such increasing importance in the country at large that the Government ought to support establishing a commissioner and a clinical network for the care of the elderly.
Baroness Pitkeathley
My Lords, in rising to speak in strong support of the amendments moved by my noble friend, I want to remind the Committee of the large number of older people who are not in receipt of health and social care services but are actually providing them. Of course, I refer to the increasing numbers of very elderly carers. Although the peak age for caring is still 45 to about 60, we are increasingly looking at elderly spouses looking after their elderly spouse, or much older parents looking after a child with special needs who is living very much longer than anyone would have expected hitherto. So the services that we think about—housing, transport, care services—must be tailored to the needs of these older carers too.
Of course we also have economic reasons for doing so, because many people have become poor in their old age by virtue of the fact that they provided care, and they are often in poor health as a direct result of their caring responsibilities. I remind your Lordships that these are the people who are most affected at the moment by cuts in local authority services and the voluntary sector. I hope that the Minister will be able to give an assurance that the needs of older carers will also be included in government priorities.
Lord Owen
My Lords, I had not expected to speak but I thought that the case put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, was extremely convincing, particularly this issue that age is not an illness but a reality, and above all a numerical reality.
Listening to the arguments, I would put just one other thought. Commissioners can sometimes be listened to and effective in government. This largely depends on the structure of government, and in particular probably either the personality of the Prime Minister or the person who is leading on health. We used to have Health and Social Security under one Secretary of State, which the noble Lord will remember very well, since he was Barbara Castle’s private secretary. He may remember too that a decision was taken in 1974 to make a Minister for the Disabled. It was scoffed at by many people within government, but there is very little doubt, looking back at the record of having successive junior Ministers responsible for disablement, that there has been a formidable achievement both in legislative activity and in activity across the board. The former Prime Minister, John Major, was at one time a junior Minister for disablement, and in fact in many ways he won his political spurs in that position.
It is a constant reminder to the Cabinet sub-committees that deal with issues like this that there is a voice there that speaks up and represents it and that is close to the source of power and decision-making. A commissioner often does not have either that access or that power. There is very little doubt that we hear and see all these problems of the aged, or that these problems are increasing. Incidentally, I think that the amendment is well worth while on its merits in relation to a National Health Service commission, but that is, as everybody has admitted, only one, relatively small issue.
There is a much deeper political issue which the present politicians are not able to grapple with. If we look at the response to the old people’s heating allowance, there is a growing feeling among a substantial number of people who do not need this money that, if we are going to be serious about grappling with the problem of the aged, we have to be serious about the whole question of the now very considerable cumulative sum that is pushed to elderly people purely and simply because of their age. I enjoy my free travel pass greatly and am wholly in favour of it, but I do not need it. In fact, I ought to be walking more frequently rather than taking the Underground or the bus. I think that we need to have a fresh look at this. The initiative on these issues will probably come from the body politic. It would be much easier to persuade people that the time has come to be more selective on some of these issues if it were ensured that the money saved was earmarked, for a while, specifically for projects for the elderly.
I would not want to endorse the proposition of a commissioner at this stage. I would be more attracted to the idea of a junior Minister for the elderly who is in government and can attend the housing, welfare, health, social care and all the other Cabinet sub-committees where the really crucial decisions are taken in terms of legislation and, often, finance.
Baroness Wall of New Barnet
My Lords, I, too, support Amendment 327ZB, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, and her earlier amendment. However, I want to make this point. I would not want the people at the sharp end—the nurses and healthcare assistants dealing with patients—to feel that this in some way exonerates them from taking the care that they should. We need to be sure that Amendment 327ZB, which describes the activities that the commissioner for older people should cover, is not an escape route for anybody who is face to face with patients, suggesting that they do not need to take responsibility. I hope that the amendment reinforces this point, but we need to be sure that this is not an opportunity for these people to claim that there is someone else who will look after their patients.
Baroness Wheeler
My Lords, I am pleased to speak in support of Amendment 150B from my noble friend Lady Bakewell, requiring the annual report of the NHS Commissioning Board to include an assessment of how effectively it meets the needs of the older population. We know that nearly two-thirds of NHS patients receiving consultant-led care and 60 per cent of people admitted to hospital are aged 65 and over, so it is highly appropriate that this requirement be added in the Bill to the specific items that the board must report on to Parliament and the Secretary of State.
Under the umbrella of this amendment on the needs of older people, I would like reassurances from the Government on how they intend to improve commissioning for essential community and prevention services for older people. It is widely recognised that these are currently undercommissioned, specifically falls prevention, audiology and continence. In terms of community services, I stress the inclusion of older people in residential care. Age UK research shows that nearly 400,000 people living in care homes currently face real difficulty in accessing GP and primary care services.
We know that undercommissioning of community and prevention services is widespread and that the healthcare system needs to be much more effective in commissioning primary health and preventive services. For example, Age UK estimates that falls prevention services could save the NHS £2.3 billion per year in preventing hip fractures alone. Falls represent the most frequent and serious type of accident in the over-65s and are a serious cause of morbidity and mortality. A recent national clinical audit to investigate the organisation of services for patients who have fallen and fractured their hip, wrist, arm, pelvis or spine showed how variable commissioning of falls services is, rarely providing a co-ordinated falls and fractures strategy. Few GPs assess the risk of falling among older patients, and arrangements in hospitals for case finding and secondary prevention are inadequate. Half of all patients suffering a hip fracture never regain their former level of function and mobility. How is this situation to be addressed in future commissioning arrangements?
On hearing, the estimates are that up to 6 million people in the UK would benefit from a hearing aid but that only 2 million have one. Waiting times for hearing aids continue to be a major problem. In some areas people can wait up to one to two years between their GP referral and having their first hearing aid fitted or for a digital upgrade of their hearing aid. Audiology is excluded from the general 18-week NHS waiting time target. How will the current shortcomings in commissioning for audiology services be addressed?
Finally, effective and dignified continence care for older people is an essential service, particularly for those whose long-term conditions, such as cancer, stroke, spinal cord injury, spina bifida, Parkinson’s and other neurological conditions, require continence management to be integrated into their care and treatment pathways. Commissioning for managing these conditions in the home, in residential care and in hospitals, and for general continence services, requires specialist knowledge and understanding of the different needs of continence care in primary and secondary care settings. The system is so often geared towards containment through pads and catheters rather than assessments or treatments of incontinence, or recognition, for example, that patients in hospital using catheters or other products over a short term will need reassessment and probably different products and support to cope with day-to-day life at home or in residential care. As a trustee of our local carers’ support organisation in Elmbridge, I know that effective support for carers who are managing a person’s continence issues can often make the difference between whether that person can be supported and cared for at home or has to go into residential care. Is the Minister confident that clinical commissioning consortia will have the expertise and the will to prioritise much-needed improvements in effective continence care?
My noble friend Lady Bakewell’s separate amendment calls for a commissioner for older people, and I hope the Minister will take this away and give the proposal serious consideration. In particular, we need to see what we can learn from similar posts in Wales and Northern Ireland, and the observations of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, are very helpful on this. The intention behind the proposal is to provide a cross-government overview and strategy on the needs of older people. It is why my own party has appointed a shadow Minister for care of older people. We also know that making progress on improving NHS care and treatment of older people, addressing the future funding of social care through Dilnot and other key measures all require champions and leadership at the highest level of government, and I look forward to the Minister’s—we hope sympathetic—response.
Earl Howe
My Lords, let me begin by saying that I am sympathetic to these amendments, moved with customary persuasiveness by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell. I completely understand what has prompted them. The improvement of services for older people is vitally important and I can reassure the noble Baroness that this will continue to be a priority for the Government.
I have written to the noble Baroness following the debate in Committee on 7 November on her Amendment 18B, explaining how the NHS outcomes framework will hold the NHS to account for improving the effectiveness of care for older people. It will act as a catalyst for driving quality improvement and outcome measurement throughout the NHS by encouraging a change in culture and in behaviour, including a renewed focus on tackling inequalities in outcomes. There may well also be specific objectives in the Secretary of State’s mandate to the board in relation to services to be provided to older people.
Now, the real question posed by the noble Baroness’s amendments is how can we improve older people’s care and how can we ensure that services are joined up? The UK Advisory Forum on Ageing, co-chaired by my honourable friend the Minister of State for Care Services, Paul Burstow, and the Minister of State for Pensions, Steve Webb, already provides advice across government on the additional steps that the Government and their partners need to take to improve well-being and independence in later life. We already have a champion for older people’s health, and that is Professor David Oliver, the national clinical director for older people. In order to ensure quality outcomes for older people during the transition to the board and CCGs, Professor Oliver and relevant bodies and partners will function as a motor for change to encourage best practice locally and to promote the messages around QIPP—Quality, Innovation, Productivity and Prevention —and long-term conditions.
Professor Oliver’s overall remit is to promote better care of older people across the NHS and social services, and to provide clinical leadership for cross-government work on older people. He is doing good work. Nor, as I say, is he working in isolation. Regular meetings take place between officials, Professor Oliver and organisations including Age UK and WRVS. Recent examples of co-operation include Age UK’s active participation in reference groups chaired by the national clinical director and the director of social care leadership and performance on the draft social care and public health outcomes frameworks.
Baroness Bakewell
I thank the Minister for that detailed response to the amendment. I also thank my noble friends for drawing attention to what is going on in Wales and in Newcastle, for mentioning the issue of older carers, and for discussing the nature of this particular group. Everyone in the population, we hope, will one day belong to that group. It is not an exclusive cohort.
I think that there is a small point of philosophical difference here. This forest of a Bill bristles with well-meaning organisations that are listening, speaking, consulting each other and offering clinical leadership. It is dense with such things. What it does not have is the single sapling of a commissioner standing alone in the desert and speaking for us, not us talking about them. To that extent, I think that the debate has been particularly fruitful. I hope to continue discussions with noble Lords, and with that in mind, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees (The Countess of Mar)
Before I call Amendment 152, I have to tell noble Lords that if Amendment 152 is agreed to, I cannot call Amendment 153, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Crosby.
Amendment 152
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
“(1) The Secretary of State may give directions to any of the bodies mentioned in subsection (2) about the exercise of any functions.
(2) For the purpose of subsection (1) the bodies are—
(a) NHS Commissioning Board(b) clinical Commissioning Groups”
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, that is exactly the point I was going to raise. Originally my Amendment 152 was grouped with Amendment 153 and other groups. For some reason I have been divorced by the Liberal Democrats, who are going to have a second debate on the same issue. This is a complete waste of time. I think that the best thing is for me not to move my amendment now, but I will speak to it in the next group.
Baroness Williams of Crosby
My Lords, may I offer a quick explanation to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and the Members of the Committee, as to why we have asked for these amendments to be separated? I am very conscious, as I sit in the Committee, of what is often said on the “Today” programme, when somebody is asked the question “How would you improve the health of the entire population”, and the interlocutor says “Please answer briefly”, which means “You have four seconds”. I shall be as quick as possible.
This amendment, along with Amendment 152—which we are not debating at present, as I am merely explaining why we have separated them—is deeply significant. This will emerge much more clearly when my noble friend Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames speaks in a few moments’ time, but it is important because it deals with the fact that the earlier Amendment 152—I have to refer to it to make any sense of my current remarks—would actually remove all powers of intervention in the current Bill. The powers of intervention associated with the Secretary of State are directly related to the failure of the board or of the CCGs.
The deletion that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, have moved, would take the whole of the failure regime out of this Bill. It would therefore be directly in conflict with one of the principles of the Bill, which is the principle of decentralisation. It moves back to the Secretary of State only the direct intervention with the board and the CCGs. It is well known now, from the long and explanatory speeches around this whole debate, that the Secretary of State passionately believes that decentralisation is one of the major principles of the Bill.
Therefore, my noble friend will explain why Amendment 153 is not on the same lines at all as Amendment 152. It is a different argument: there should be the right of intervention by the Secretary of State, but it should be limited in a way that saves the decentralisation principle. Why does it do that? It does that by referring back to the Secretary of State’s overall responsibilities for the health service as a whole—which we all accept as a crucial element of the constitutional discussions now going on—as distinct from a direct intervention at the level of the board and the clinical commissioning groups, which would be to restore the very central principle that the Bill has rejected. This is not a deceptive amendment simply about some powers; it is in fact to make it clear that there is a distinction between decentralised responsibilities by the board and the CCGs and the essential, ultimate right—expressed, for example, in the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, at an earlier stage—of the Secretary of State to have responsibility for a comprehensive health service while not intervening in a detailed way in the clinical commissioning groups or the Commissioning Board. I will now pass the further part of the argument on to my noble friend Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames. I beg to move.
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames
My Lords, this is a most significant area of the Bill, as my noble friend Lady Williams of Crosby has said. This group concerns the regime whereby, in the event of a significant failure, the Secretary of State can intervene in the board’s exercise of its functions. That is in Amendment 153. The board in its turn can intervene in the exercise by a clinical commissioning group of its functions. That is the purpose of Amendments 220ZAA and 220ZAB. I would add Amendment 220ZA, which is not currently in the list of the group, which simply amends the title of the proposed new Section 14Z19. Also in the group is Amendment 277, which removes the restriction on the Secretary of State’s intervening where there has been a significant failure by Monitor to act in relation to a particular case.
May I first address the question of the Secretary of State’s intervention in the board’s exercise of its functions? When we debated at some length Clauses 1 and 4 and the proposed new Section 13F, noble Lords were clear that whatever may be the outcome of those discussions and debates on those clauses, this House must ensure that the Secretary of State will have powers and functions that are up to the job of enabling him or her to carry out those overarching duties. Those duties involve him or her in carrying ultimate responsibility and accountability to Parliament and in the courts for the NHS. We should remind ourselves that my noble friend the Minister and my honourable friend Mr Paul Burstow have repeatedly assured Parliament that the Government are determined to make it clear that the Secretary of State will remain responsible and accountable for the NHS in Parliament and at law.
Lord Owen
My Lords, I have followed with great interest the career of the noble Lord who has just spoken. He has now reached great eminence in his profession, and he has succinctly explained exactly what this Bill needs. This is by far the most important amendment that we have had before us. I welcome both of its parameters. It would be a terrible failure if we did not pass such a Bill. It is inconceivable that a person could even call himself Secretary of State for Health and not have this power. It would be impossible for him to stand before the House of Commons, where he is most likely to be holding that great office, and be unable to say if he felt that there had been a failure to carry out the responsibilities with which he is charged. How could he hold the office? It would effectively be a resignation issue on an important matter if he did not have that power and was not able to exercise it, and not to give him that power is effectively to strip the Secretary of State of his substance and his standing. This amendment is therefore utterly crucial. I personally think the wording is correct.
I would just like to deal with this word “significant”. Until a few weeks ago I would have queried whether or not the word “significant” would be adequate. However, if you look at the legislation that this House has already examined in great detail and which has now been passed into law, namely the European Union Act 2011, which was given very close scrutiny, there is an issue—I think it is in Article 48—that I suspect we will be debating quite soon. This allows the Government, in circumstances in which they think a change has been made to the EU legislation that is not significant, to give up having a referendum. It has already been indicated to the rest of the eurozone countries that there are some circumstances under which the British Government would consider a eurozone amendment predominantly the concern of the eurozone and not significant, and therefore it would be able to be passed with unanimity and not need a referendum in the UK. So this word “significant” has already been crawled over with a great deal of care by a large number of people, not least the Eurosceptic element within the Conservative Party.
It has also been made clear that that would be subject to judicial review, which might be another safeguard that you would have to see. I think it is implicit in the wording—the noble Lord would know the legal consequences better than I—but I personally could live with the “significant” because there is an important issue here that if decentralisation is to be effective, there must not be micromanagement. I looked at putting down an amendment using the word “micromanagement” and then I came to the conclusion that micromanagement is in the eye of the beholder; it is not really a word that we could carry through in legislation. I think the combination of wording that the noble Baroness has used is the correct one: you have got the right to intervene but it is qualified by the fact it has to be significant, and it might be that that significance could be challenged. I very much hope that, having given it due thought, the Government will rise today to tell us that it is going to be accepted. If they do not do so, I hope it is pushed to a Division, whether that is now in Committee or on Report is up to the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, whose judgment I always accept—almost always.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I remain very puzzled by what the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, said. There is no disagreement at all, it seems to me. My original amendment and the amendments of the noble Lords on the Liberal Democrat Benches are entirely about the whole question of what is an appropriate intervention by the Secretary of State. Perhaps the noble Earl is going to accept this amendment and the Liberal Democrats want the glory of having it accepted—who knows? I agree entirely with the analysis of the noble Lord, Lord Marks, that the powers of the Secretary of State have to be sufficient to enable the Secretary of State to discharge his or her accountability to Parliament and to be responsible for the overall performance of the National Health Service. I agree with him that the current intervention powers are too weak in terms of the threshold and I agree that they are set too high. I also agree with his analysis about the relationship between the board and clinical commissioning groups.
It is very interesting as this Bill has progressed—somewhat slowly but none the less some progress has been made—that we have seen a number of interventions by the Secretary of State into the affairs of the National Health Service during that time. They have included coming down very hard on primary care trusts that were making people wait longer on the waiting list, although within the 18-week target period in order to save money, and on NHS trusts that, once a patient missed the 18-week target, let them wait many more months. I make no complaint about those interventions. I believe the Secretary of State was entirely justified. One of the questions is, how would that happen under this legislation?
When we debated this last week, the noble Earl, Lord Howe, essentially said that provision could be made in the mandate set for the board by the Secretary of State. That in itself risks the mandate becoming prescriptive and potentially another way to micromanage the National Health Service as one thing after another is added on. He was not very keen on my noble friend Lord Warner’s suggestion that the mandate be restricted to, I think, five objectives and five desirable objectives. I suspect that when we see the mandate it is going to be very detailed because the Secretary of State will seek to cover himself so that when blame comes it will fall entirely on the NHS Commissioning Board.
It may be that in writing the mandate there are some events or issues that could not be anticipated in advance. However, in the circumstances that I have mentioned, the noble Earl, Lord Howe, could say, “Well, you have the intervention powers contained in Section 13Z1 on page 23”. As the noble Lords, Lord Owen and Lord Marks, have suggested, the problem is that the intervention has to be based on a failure,
“properly to discharge any of its functions, and the failure is significant”.
The intervention is based on the consideration of the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State will be properly advised by his officials and possibly by the Government’s law officers. However, what if the NHS Commissioning Board rejects the Secretary of State’s view? What if clinical commissioning groups which had contained costs took the view that, in the case of non-urgent treatments, it was legitimate to make patients wait a few weeks if they were none the less treated within the overall 18-week target? Looking at the robust evidence given by the chair of the NHS Commissioning Board to the Health Select Committee, which scrutinised his appointment, it is just possible that the NHS Commissioning Board might tell the Secretary of State to back off. I do not think that is right. I am firmly on the side of Mr Lansley, since he is the Secretary of State and firmly answerable to Parliament. In the way that the Bill is currently constructed, I worry that the Secretary of State will be inhibited from necessary interventions.
Lord Newton of Braintree
My Lords, I wonder whether I could chip in, starting with an apology. As a result of the apparent abandonment of the previous set of amendments, I did not realise that this one had started and, therefore, have not followed everything that has been said. My remarks will be correspondingly brief. However, I have heard enough to know that I want to declare my general broad sympathy with the thrust of what the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, proposes and to link myself with the remarks that have just been made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and not least those that were made while I was in the Chamber by the noble Lord, Lord Owen. They all echo something that I, and my noble friend Lord Mawhinney, have tried to say on a number of previous occasions—that there is beginning to be an absence of realism in the Government’s attitude to some of these matters. As I have said several times—and as has been said in other ways by other Peers during this debate—at the end of the day the House of Commons will not accept a Secretary of State who says, “Nothing to do with me, guv”, when something has clearly gone seriously wrong.
If the Secretary of State judges that something is happening that is not in the best interests of the health service, I do not see how he can fail to do something about it; and if he does not have a clear power to do something, I can tell you what will happen. The Government will scratch around in every corner of the Act until they find something that enables them to do something, because the Secretary of State will not be able to tell the House of Commons that he can do nothing. There is a real danger that the Government will immolate themselves, in this House at least, on the basis of an absurd proposition that the Secretary of State can somehow stand back and wash his hands of things when they are going wrong. I hope that this amendment will not be pressed to a Division tonight, because I do not think it would be sensible. We need to reflect on what the Minister says, but he needs to reflect on what is being said to him and to be prepared to come back with something different on Report.
Lord Warner
My Lords, I am beginning to feel sorry for the Minister. He is getting a kicking from both sides of him, left and right, and in front. I am puzzled by this amendment and the arguments being put forward, both the one by my noble friend Lord Hunt, and the one in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, and the noble Lord, Lord Marks. The reason why I am puzzled is because I keep coming back and looking at this Bill, particularly at Clauses 17 and 20. I know that the Minister did not think much of my restrictions on the number of items in the Secretary of State’s mandate under Clause 20, but let us set that aside for the moment. Let us assume that the Secretary of State does exactly what my noble friend Lord Hunt does and lays out a very large number of items, and not what David Nicholson does, listing them on one side of A4.
The beauty of the mandate is that it has to be related to money and the Secretary of State can, in certain circumstances, change the mandate. He also has considerable powers to make standing rules changes under Clause 17. So I am slightly puzzled about the set of circumstances that my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Marks, are making for this additional provision. I am interested to hear what the Minister says about why this additional requirement may be necessary, because of the inadequacies of the combined effects and powers of Clause 20 and Clause 17.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
Perhaps I could try to answer my noble friend. There are two reasons why this is important. First, there is a real risk that the mandate will become so large and extensive to cover the Secretary of State—who wishes to transfer responsibility to the national Commissioning Board—that we will end up with a real fudge about who is actually responsible. Secondly, there are circumstances. Until last week, I do not think that many people knew that once a trust had allowed its waiting times to go beyond 18 weeks, there was a problem with some of them taking their eye off the ball. If a patient missed the target, often he might have to wait for weeks. It is quite possible that even if the mandate is as extensive as I suggest it might be, there will be circumstances in which the Secretary of State may need to intervene. It is not the case of having time to rewrite or edit the mandate, or look at the standing rules. The Secretary of State may need to intervene on the day that an issue arises. All that I want to do—and I suspect the noble Lord, Lord Marks, also wants this—is to make sure that the Secretary of State is able to intervene in circumstances that we cannot necessarily anticipate but, knowing the health service, we suspect will arise from time to time.
Lord Mawhinney
My Lords, the contributions of the noble Lords, Lord Marks and Lord Owen, demonstrate again why this Chamber is frequently held in the highest regard for the strength, clarity and coherence of the arguments that are advanced within it. I am not going to repeat what they said because I agreed with both of them. My noble friend Lord Newton and I are in danger of becoming Tweedledum and Tweedledee when it comes to trying to persuade the Government that there is a real world out there with around £130 billion worth of responsibility. Lots and lots of people are doing their best, but human beings have the inescapable ability of getting things wrong from time to time, no matter how good their intentions.
I have to say to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, that one of the interesting things about this Bill is that it talks about a mandate. I think of my time in Richmond House when something had gone seriously wrong and civil servants came in to say, “Well, there’s a mandate, Minister,” and I would say, “Isn’t that fantastic?”.
Let us get down to the reality of what we are going to do about this latest mishap. That is not an argument for not having a mandate, it is an argument for not putting all your eggs in one basket, even if this particular basket is as widely constructed as the noble Lord, Lord Warner, thinks. I have not resiled from what I have previously said in this Committee in that the Secretary of State is responsible. He has to be responsible to Parliament, he has to be responsible in law, and in reality he has to be responsible in the health service. I am relaxed about the Government putting in place arrangements which they believe—it will all have to be tested over the next few years—will provide a more coherent way of delivering a better and more efficient service than we currently enjoy. I do not resile from the fact that when push comes to shove—and it will, because that is one of the characteristics of the Department of Health, more than any other single department in Her Majesty’s Government in my 30-odd years in this building, one end or the other—it must be clear that the Secretary of State can act, and in a way where the people of this country believe he is acting for them and on their behalf.
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames
My Lords, if the noble Lords, Lord Mawhinney and Lord Newton, are Tweedledum and Tweedledee, they make a splendid double act in this Chamber. It has been heartening to hear the support for these amendments from all sides of the House. Adding to what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, said about the observation made by the noble Lord, Lord Warner, the simple distinction is that the mandate and the regulations are intended to be and should be—if they are not to be entirely unwieldy and inappropriately used—prospective. They should set objectives and requirements as to how the strategy of the health service is to be implemented. The intervention powers are intended to be, and must be, reactive. It is the power to react effectively that is important, and as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, pointed out, it has been used on a number of recent occasions.
May I make one observation to explain our position on Amendment 152, and the difference as we see it? It is not over what is included so much as in what is left out. What is left out is effectively the whole of the intervention regime and what is substituted is a general power to give directions which would take us back to Section 8 of the 2006 Act, which I know that the Government believe is undesirable. I also suggest it is undesirable because it reverts to an unacceptable kind of micromanagement, even though I quite accept the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Owen, about that term being difficult to use in legislation.
Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, suggested that I might explain why we used the words,
“in the best interest of the National Health Service”.
It is right, I suggest, that there should be a criterion for the intervention by the Secretary of State. The criterion that we have chosen is the interest of the health service. It is, of course, what the Secretary of State considers to be in the interest of the health service. That phrase finds repetition in the Bill, so amendments are consonant with the wording of the Bill elsewhere. I am bound to say that if I was called upon in a court of law to challenge the Secretary of State on what he or she considers the interest of the health service to be, on judicial review I would be very cautious about advising my clients of any prospect of success.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, does not the noble Lord make my point for me, apart from believing that the 2006 Act is perfectly formed in every way? Surely the point is that it should not be open to any doubt whatever. In the end, if a Secretary of State intervenes, it must be because he considers it in the best interest of the National Health Service. Why should we complicate matters by potentially giving at least an argument for judicial review when, in the cases mentioned, the Secretary of State simply will need to, or be required to, intervene?
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames
The answer is that we are not at one about the vulnerability of my amendment to judicial review. I rather hope that that is never tested; nevertheless, I hope that the amendments are accepted.
Earl Howe
My Lords, the policy of the Government and the vision that we have consistently set out is that Ministers will be responsible for overseeing and holding to account the national bodies, backed by extensive powers of intervention in the event of significant failure. I say to my noble friend Lord Newton that that is what the Bill provides for. These powers are essential if Ministers are to be able to retain ultimate accountability for the health service, for the very reasons that he stated. I have to say that some of his phraseology was, in my view, unnecessarily extravagant, if I may use that phrase. The Secretary of State will not stand back; nor will he wash his hands of what is going on, as my noble friend put it. The Bill enables the Secretary of State to intervene where he believes that Monitor, the board, the Care Quality Commission, NICE, HealthWatch or the Information Centre are failing or have failed to exercise their functions, and that failure is significant. In the event that Ministers use these intervention powers, they will be required to publish the reasons for doing so, including an explanation of why they consider the failure to be significant. These requirements will provide transparency to the decision-making process.
I will deal with the question posed by my noble friend Lord Marks. Why should we use the word “significant”? The clear aim of its use is, exactly as my noble friend suggested, to stop Ministers intervening in inconsequential matters. There is no case law on the meaning of “significant failure”. The Secretary of State will need to decide whether a failure is significant. However, cases have considered the meaning of “significant” in other contexts and have taken the approach that, while a dictionary definition of “significant”—
“noteworthy; of considerable amount or importance”—
is not to substitute a different expression for the statute, it remains a helpful indication of what the term means. There is a degree of flexibility inherent in the term “significant”, and I believe that that is helpful in the context of the arguments put forward by the noble Lord, Lord Owen—who is not in his place—and my noble friend Lord Mawhinney.
I will first deal with Amendment 152. I respectfully suggest that there is a gap between that amendment and that of my noble friends Lord Marks and Lady Williams. Amendment 152 seeks to amend the Bill to give the Secretary of State wide powers to direct the board and clinical commissioning groups in how they carry out their functions. I said “wide powers”, and that fundamentally cuts across the vision of a health service free from political micromanagement. It therefore gets us back into exactly the territory that we want to get away from.
Of course it is important, as I have said, that there are intervention powers if things go wrong and those powers are in the Bill. The Bill also sets out a robust system by which the board will hold CCGs to account. I will come on to that in a moment. Creating a sweeping power of direction would seriously undermine the autonomy of the board and local commissioning groups and allow Ministers to use directions or indeed the threat of directions to second-guess operational decisions. In addition, any direct power over CCGs would duplicate and undermine the role of the board which is responsible for overseeing local commissioning.
Amendment 153 makes a more subtle point. It seeks to enable the Secretary of State to direct the board should he consider it to be failing to carry out its functions in the best interests of the health service. Let me reassure my noble friend of what I am sure he does not need to be told. We would always expect the board to act in a way that is consistent with the interests of the health service. This is made clear by the duty on the board to promote the NHS constitution and the duty set out by proposed new Section 1E(2), which ensures that the board is also subject to the duty to promote the comprehensive health service. If the board were acting in a way that was not consistent with those duties, then it would be acting unlawfully. That may constitute a significant failure by the board to exercise its functions properly or indeed at all in relation to which the Secretary of State would consider intervening.
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames
My Lords, I am sorry to intervene at this stage but does my noble friend the Minister not accept that there may well be two divergent views of what the best interests of the health service are, and that the board may hold one view, the Secretary of State an entirely different view—or, on the other hand, CCGs may hold one view and the board an entirely different view—and that undermines any notion of accountability if the Secretary of State has to stand up in Parliament and say, “I do not believe what the board has done is in the interests of the health service but the board does and I cannot do anything about it”? That is the mischief at which these amendments are directed.
Earl Howe
I take the point but I hope my noble friend will agree that I have an answer. The crucial point is that, while we would expect the board to have a clear shared understanding of what the interests of the health service are, the Secretary of State has mechanisms over the board which he can use if necessary to clearly set out what these interests are. He can do that by setting objectives and he can hold the board to account for those. So he has other levers.
Amendment 277, also in the name of my noble friend Lady Williams, would prevent the Secretary of State from intervening in specific cases where he considers that Monitor has failed or is failing to perform its functions. We believe that it is important for the Secretary of State to be able to intervene in the event of a significant failure by Monitor to perform its functions. That intervention power does not exist at all under current legislation, and we believe it should. We do not believe Ministers should have the power to intervene in individual cases. Such a power would risk politically motivated interference and undermine the independence of the regulator. That point is extremely important.
However, there is an important exception to this rule in relation to the continuity of services. Amendments introduced in another place allow the Secretary of State to intervene in relation to proposals for securing access to services where a provider has become unsustainable. The Secretary of State would be able to exercise a veto if Monitor and clinical commissioning groups have failed to discharge their functions, to follow the proper procedures or to secure access to services.
We are clear that the wording of the clause as it stands strikes the right balance, enabling the Secretary of State to intervene when necessary to address systemic failure, while ensuring that Monitor is able to carry out its functions free from potentially time-consuming and politically motivated interventions relating to individual cases. The NHS Commissioning Board will also have powers of intervention, as set out in new Section 14Z19, to support CCGs and take action where necessary if there is evidence that they are not meeting their statutory duties or that there is a significant risk of them failing to do so.
I recognise that the intention behind Amendments 220ZAA and 220ZAB, which look to ensure that the board only intervenes in a CCG when it is satisfied that the CCG is failing, or is at significant risk of failing, is to exercise a function in the best interests of the NHS. However, as the Bill is drafted, the board can determine when a CCG is not exercising its functions properly and that is surely the better approach. We are giving the board discretion to determine when intervention is necessary, based on the terms of each statutory function that CCGs have, not in relation to a separate criterion. The amendment would actually narrow the grounds on which the board would have power to intervene, which I do not think would be at all helpful.
Finally, I would like to address the point put to me by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, about waiting time objectives. The noble Lord implies that Ministers would be powerless in the face of waiting times. That is simply not the case. Ministers’ main weapons on this issue would be the standing rules and the NHS constitution. Current contractual requirements relating to waiting times, such as 18 weeks, are covered by the constitution through the handbook and will form a key feature of the standing rules pending passage of this Bill. If the Secretary of State wanted to act on a new waiting time issue, the option is there for the NHS constitution handbook to be revised and the standing rules updated accordingly.
I hope that I have provided enough detail on these clauses to enable my noble friend to withdraw the amendments.
Baroness Armstrong of Hill Top
Will there be issues around the National Health Service that Members of Parliament will not be able to question Ministers about or to get clear answers from Ministers on? I have listened very carefully to the Minister, but I am still very confused about the accountability to Parliament and what the Minister will answer questions on and what he will say is the responsibility of Monitor, the NCB or whatever.
Earl Howe
There are no areas that will be out of bounds to parliamentarians in the sense that the noble Baroness has said. What may happen is that the Secretary of State or other Ministers may respond directly, or in a way that draws upon advice that they have received from, let us imagine, the NHS Commissioning Board; they may quote what the board has said and say that this is the advice that they have received, or they may, as with some agencies at the moment, refer the parliamentarian to that body directly. It will vary. The main question that the noble Baroness asks is whether parliamentarians will be inhibited in some way. The answer is no.
Baroness Williams of Crosby
I should like to add a few words before considering whether or not to withdraw this amendment. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, has obviously made the best possible case he can, but given the very extensive doubts on all sides of the House, I feel that he ought to be asked to address this issue very clearly. It is bound up in many ways with the whole issue of the responsibilities and accountability of the Secretary of State which is under discussion at the present time. I will withdraw the amendment on the understanding that it will come back on Report when we have had an opportunity to see how this fits into the whole structure of responsibilities of the Secretary of State.
Perhaps the most simple answer to the question that was asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, is that on the basis of Amendment 153 it would be impossible for the Secretary of State to say, “Not me, guv” in response to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Newton of Braintree. This is so central, and so serious, that in withdrawing the amendment I make it absolutely clear that I do so in order to give an opportunity to the department and to the Minister to consider how this may be best fitted in to the responsibilities and accountabilities of the Secretary of State over the whole of the health service. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, my Amendment 154 brings us to a group of amendments which consider a number of interesting points about clinical commissioning groups and their relationship with GPs, other contractor services and local authorities. They also allow us an early canter at probing exactly where the Government’s policy on clinical commissioning groups currently is.
My first Amendment 154 is partly probing, but it is also to ask why membership of a clinical commissioning group is only confined to general practitioners or, in the jargon of the Bill, providers of primary medical services. What about the other contractor professions within primary care: the dentists, the pharmacists and the ophthalmologists? What about primary and community nurses? I would not in any way seek to undermine the potential leadership role of general practitioners, but they are part of a primary care team. It is rather unfortunate that other members of the primary care team were not considered worthy of membership of a clinical commissioning group.
I must say that I have yet to hear any rational explanation as to why GPs only have been singled out for this exalted membership of a clinical commissioning group. It would have been perfectly possible to have brought all the contractor professions and, I would hope, primary care nurses, into membership of a clinical commissioning group, and then to have a governance structure which none the less recognised the pivotal role of GPs but did not exclude the other professions. One could have had a weighted voting system or some other way of reflecting that yes, GPs are clearly a very important profession in primary health care, but they are not the only one.
I am curious to know why the Government did not adapt that approach, and how they expect clinical commissioning groups to really relate to the other professions. How can they bring them on board? I think of rural clinical commissioning groups and rural dispensing, and how there can be terrible tensions between GPs who dispense in rural areas and community pharmacists in those areas. If I were a community pharmacist, I would be rather concerned that the rural clinical commissioning group is not at all going to act in the interest of community pharmacy. It is almost bound to act in the interest of rural dispensing general practitioners.
I would be interested therefore, if the noble Earl, Lord Howe, could give some further explanation as to the construct of clinical commissioning groups. I should say to him that, having talked to dentists and community pharmacists, they are really concerned that they will be excluded from the decision-making process within clinical commissioning groups, and that it will be purely GP-dominated. Some of the people most concerned, and quite rightly, are primary care nurses, whose voice should be heard. One fears that the traditional approach will be to exclude them from those discussions when they have an enormous amount of expertise to bring to the table.
Amendment 158 is a probing amendment. It relates to the areas of clinical commissioning groups and argues that clinical commissioning groups ought to be coterminous with the boundaries of a local authority or contiguous group of local authorities.
I stress to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, that this is a probe. If health and well-being boards are to work well, there clearly needs to be an integration of public health and commissioning between the various groups at local level to make sure that they come together in a cohesive plan and at interventions. It is very important that clinical commissioning group areas at least do not go over into other local authority boundaries. There is an argument for coterminosity, but of course I do accept that in some areas that would make the clinical commissioning groups far too large and that is why I stress to the noble Earl that this is a probing amendment.
In the county, non-metropolitan district areas where you still have a two-tier system, I would have thought there is some concern about the involvement of the non-metropolitan district councils in the arrangements for liaison between local government and clinical commissioning groups. While it does not strictly come within the remit of this amendment, it is a matter to which I suspect we will want to return at Report stage.
Beyond that, this is a good opportunity to ask some serious questions about clinical group commissioning. It seems to be clear that there is now increasing anxiety among GPs that the likelihood of them having significant control of commissioning is becoming remoter by the day. The noble Earl will be aware of the BMA’s decision to come out decisively against the Bill. But I have also noted with great interest a press release by the NHS Alliance, which of course has been very much a flag waver for the Government, in which it complained about bullying taking place by the system in relation to clinical commissioning groups. The headline is that doctors leading the NHS reform changes report coercion and bullying in the way the organisations are being set up, which followed a survey of a number of pathfinder clinical commissioning groups. The survey asked: “Do you believe that your clinical commissioning group is being coerced or bullied in how you are setting up in ways that conflict with what you feel would benefit your local population?” Out of the 67 clinical commissioning groups surveyed, 60 per cent answered yes. So much for this hands-off approach that we have been promised. Clearly things have changed. When this started the assumption was that we would have a large number of clinical commissioning groups covering fairly small areas where GPs would actively be involved around the table in commissioning decisions. It has been made abundantly clear that CCGs would not be authorised unless they merged into much larger organisations covering very large population bases.
I wonder whether the noble Earl could perhaps say how many clinical commissioning groups he now expects to be informed. Can he also confirm that they are going to be forced to obtain external commissioning support? Indeed, they have been promised the delight of a bureaucratic procurement process for that support lasting, I understand, up to 12 months. So they are also clearly being leaned upon to use the private sector for such support and they are being forced also to merge commissioning for large-scale commissioning projects. No wonder some GPs are beginning to wonder what this is really all about and whether one beast is being replaced by another. Today Dr Michael Dixon, the chair of the NHS Alliance, told the annual conference about the challenges ahead for clinical commissioning groups or, as he called them, the nation’s future clinical commissioners. He said that they will be confronted by the demons of self-interest, factional politics, ignorance, laziness and raw emotion. They will be hated by all of those who have fed from the gravy train of the current system.
I am a longstanding admirer of Dr Dixon, not least because of his pressure when I was in government to give support to complementary medicine, which I suspect that noble Earl, Lord Howe, now enjoys as well. But I think he made those remarks because he knows, deep in his heart, that the game is up. Whatever one thinks of the Government’s reforms and whatever changes have been made as a consequence of the listening exercises, I had always clung to the thought that the Government were serious about giving GPs control of commissioning. It has become abundantly clear that this is not the case. GPs have been sold a dupe and so too has Parliament, I fear. I beg to move.
Lord Warner
I speak to Amendment 157 which is aimed at containing the number of clinical commissioning groups and their total operating costs. I have some sympathy with the remarks made by my noble friend, but before I go into the detail of these particular amendments, I want to give a little context.
My Lords, there has been a great deal of concern expressed by many people who are well versed in the background and activities of the NHS about the number and small size of clinical commissioning groups that might emerge. I do not condone bullying, but we have a problem. The smallest population size for a CCG that I have come across is 18,000 for Radlett, near Watford. I asked the Minister for the Government’s latest estimate of the number of clinical commissioning groups likely to be operational in April 2013. In his answer to me on 9 November, he said:
“It is too soon to estimate the number of clinical commissioning groups that will be operational in April 2013. There are, however, currently 266 pathfinder CCGs covering 95% of GP practices in England”.—[Official Report, 9/11/11; col. WA 58.]
So it is possible that there could be about 280 clinical commissioning groups when all practices are covered. This is far too many to be effective, for reasons I will explain in a moment. We are getting into an extraordinary position. It seems almost an article of faith, or really bold ministerial courage, for the Government to be embarking on this massive NHS reorganisation, at a time of great financial challenge, without knowing, 16 months before they go live, how many clinical commissioning groups—the bodies that will be handling large chunks of this money—will be in place. That seems a pretty racy way to live with a national icon like the NHS.
We will come to the competency tests for CCGs in later amendments. If those competency tests are to mean anything, a significant number of these groups could, presumably, flunk them. Or will all the geese suddenly become swans? What light can the Minister throw on the likely failure rate for clinical commissioning group applicants? When will we have more reliable data on how many clinical commissioning groups we are likely to end up with? For the purposes of discussing the amendment, I will assume that the Government anticipate having something of the order of 250 clinical commissioning groups by April 2013. For many of us, this would seem far too many, and totally fails to learn the lessons of history. As someone who had to learn the lessons of history in the area of commissioning the hard way, I want to share some of that experience with the House.
In 2002, the previous Government set up 302 primary care trusts to undertake commissioning. To some extent, in doing this, it was following the course that this Government are trying to pursue—of getting commissioning closer to local populations. That was one of the arguments for doing it and it is not one which I would quarrel with, in principle. But, like clinical commissioning groups, small PCTs were expected to be able to carry out most of the functions of a commissioner. They needed to have all the skills to undertake commissioning, they needed to be effective demand managers, they had to have the muscle to stop acute hospitals gobbling up too much of the money and they had to be able to secure a more appropriate balance between community-based and hospital-based services in their delivery. They failed, and their failures were shown by a number of reports by the Health Select Committee in the House of Commons. They failed because many of them were simply too small and there were too many of them for the commissioning capability nationally available to be able to staff and run that number of bodies. We are heading down exactly the same path with clinical commissioning groups. The manifestation of the failure of the PCTs was the financial meltdown of the NHS in 2005-06. This meltdown occurred after several years of 5 per cent real terms growth in NHS expenditure and in the middle of a financial year with 5 to 6 per cent real terms growth. This is not the situation that clinical commissioning groups will be faced with.
Lord Newton of Braintree
My Lords, perhaps I may chip in once again in seeking that my noble friend should at least listen very carefully to what has been said by the noble Lord, Lord Warner. I probably ought to declare a sort of interest in that my wife is currently a member of a PCT board. I would like some clarity about just what the situation is in this respect. As the noble Lord, Lord Warner, indicated towards the end of his remarks, the contrast between what is being put in place at the moment and what is prospectively going to be put in place is even greater than the actual number of PCTs at present because of what has been done about clustering. At the moment—I do not know the exact figure on clusters—there is an even bigger contrast between, as I say, the number of clusters and the potential number of clinical commissioning groups, with all the costs, potential fragmentation and the rest of it that that might entail.
There is another issue and I just want to find out exactly how the Minister sees the position. Clustering has been achieved not by abolishing or merging PCTs but by appointing the same people to the boards of several PCTs. I think that the House should be clear about that. I want to know from the Minister exactly what is the number of PCTs at the moment; whether that number has in any way been affected by clustering; and whether the PCTs, which still exist as legal entities alongside the clusters which are not legal entities, continue to have all the responsibilities and duties that are assigned to them under the statutory basis on which they were set up in the first instance. PCTs remain the statutory entities. The clusters have no statutory basis at all, and we need to be absolutely clear what the situation is, how many PCTs we have and what their responsibilities are.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
My Lords, I have an amendment in this group. At first sight the group might seem loosely hung together but there is a common theme running through all this, and that is: how much is all this going to cost? The back-office functions for commissioning are not inconsiderable, and the more that clinical commissioning groups come together, the more some of those back-office functions can be merged and cost-savings made—or at least the more that expenditure can be decreased, because it is not really cost-saving. The document Developing Commissioning Support is quite interesting because it reveals the complexity of many of the back-office support functions that clinical commissioning groups will certainly need. Indeed, GPs themselves are independent contractors to the NHS. In many ways, that is why the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is so sensible. Many of the other people working in the community are actually salaried, so they do not get any financial gain from contributing to a clinical commissioning group, whereas there are financial incentives for general practitioners in different ways of commissioning. For example, they often run out-of-hours services and may effectively be commissioning those from themselves within a particular area.
I want to draw the Committee’s attention to the need for collaboration in commissioning for those patients and groups of patients who have relatively rare but not terribly rare conditions. I shall take motor neurone disease as an example. In Nottingham, there is a properly commissioned neurological network that works across different PCTs with a lead PCT and the patients with motor neurone disease are able to access a pathway of care—a complete package of care—that is consistent with the Motor Neurone Disease Association’s own Year of Care pathway, which it developed to inform commissioning some time ago.
In another area, Southampton, no end-of-life care has been commissioned for motor neurone disease patients over the past five years. That means that patients even have to move to other areas, such as Gloucester, simply to access specialist palliative care when they are aware that they are going to need it at the end of life. That cannot be right. We know perfectly well that when you provide good integrated care, the quality of patients’ lives as their disease progresses can be improved by appropriate interventions. However, without it, it is a council of despair. The PCTs in that area have refused to fund end-of-life care for motor neurone disease patients, and it is an ongoing problem. Recently, two of the commissioners in the PCT were so concerned that they made a business case, but it was not backed by the PCT on financial grounds, because it is short of funding.
There is another problem, and another reason that clinical commissioning groups need to come together and collaborate. Quite a few seem to be looking at using the map of medicine as a basis to inform their commissioning decisions, but the map of medicine was not devised and written to guide commissioning. It was meant to guide clinical decision-making, and it is not complete in any one sector. You need to put the different parts of it together. For example, if you take chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, it does not have end-of-life care within its module. So if you use that module, you will not get the complete package that patients need. You also have to go to the end-of-life care module. Some of us who have looked at it in detail do not think that it is an appropriate template to use for comprehensive commissioning of services integrating processes early in the disease and right on through.
The commissioning groups are going to be on a very steep learning curve. They are going to find things very difficult, and with many small groups, the cost of them trying to do the commissioning will go up, and that is before they have used their funding to actually commission the services for patients that they have responsibility for.
These are very important amendments. This group and the next one get right into the heart of some of the problems that are beginning to emerge over the way that clinical commissioning groups are defined in the Bill.
Lord Mawhinney
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, was right when she said that these are important amendments because they get to the heart of one of the big issues of the Bill. They pose a problem that only the Government can help us to understand and resolve. The noble Lord, Lord Warner, introduced us to the concept of clusters. Although I am deeply tempted—for I agree with what my noble friend Lord Newton of Braintree said about them—as we are supposed to be brief, I shall resist expressing my views on clusters until we get to the amendments that I have put down to Schedule 6, which deals with these issues, save to say that, at that point, the House is unlikely to be confused about what I think.
The noble Lord, Lord Warner, pinpointed the issue. From my Second Reading speech and also from conversations which he and I have had, my noble friend will know that I am enthusiastic about this Bill because it introduces GP commissioning. I have strong memories of the great advantage that GP fundholding presented to those patients who were the patients of GP fundholders. So I was drawn to be supportive, because I understood that the groups were going to be relatively small. They would benefit from the inter-reaction of GPs and patients, and nobody in the health service knows better than GPs what is in the best interest of their patients.
On the other hand, I recognise the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Warner, that if you have too many of them—as the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has pointed out—you run into other difficulties. Were we to wind up with a smaller number of large bodies, then clinical commissioning starts to mean something entirely different from what those of us who were supportive of the Bill believed to be the case initially. The noble Lord, Lord Warner, said there was a danger in all of this and a number of GPs would wind up being very disappointed. I have to say to my noble friend that if we get in to big organisations, there will be more than a few GPs who will be disappointed at the direction of government-policy travel.
Baroness Jolly
My Lords, I have supported the idea of coterminosity from when I first saw the Bill in January. It struck me as being straightforward and sensible that if health and social care were put together, the health boundaries would be aligned with the social care boundaries. That clearly happened in the middle of the last decade, when PCTs were grouped together to be coterminous with social care boundaries. There are all sorts of issues. If you have a large clinical commissioning group, then there is a capacity issue in that you have one clinical commissioning group that might need to work with several local authorities’ health and well-being boards, directors of public health, healthwatches or whatever. If you have a small group, then you have many CCGs working with all those bodies. It struck me that if there were a direct fit, everything would look quite neat and hunky-dory. I parked the thought in my mind that everything was fine.
Then I started to look at what was happening around me locally in the south-west. Torbay has been mentioned many times in your Lordships’ House. It provided a care trust—health and social care together. One of the areas they are really anxious about is that if they become part of Devon, an awful lot might get lost. So there are special circumstances around that integration. They know that they are small and they are trying to look at making themselves bigger by working with other parts of Devon, all of which take their acute services from one DGH. The same sort of thing is happening in Plymouth. Noble Lords will remember from the Bill about constituency boundaries in January that there was a huge big deal about Cornwall being all on its own. Cornish patients, believe it or not, actually do cross the Tamar in order to go to hospital in Plymouth. A fifth of Cornish hospital patients actually do that, so a whole group of Cornish GPs who face that way, along with some in south-west Devon who face that way, along with Plymouth, have discussed the possibility of working together as a group, simply because they all face one DGH. It was a common bond, if you like.
Therefore, we have a county or a district or a borough seen as one possible common bond. We have an idea that commissioning groups who commission from a particular hospital, trying to work together in a pathfinder mode, is not peculiar to the south-west; a lot people seem to think it would be a good idea. There are lots of issues, so how do we solve this? I still think that, for an awful lot of situations, co-terminosity is the right answer. The test really has to be: what actually can be deemed to be in the interest of the patient? The whole thing has to be taken in the round; it has to include care providers and health providers and there has to be an element of size capacity. My head—and my heart—say coterminosity, but then I look at certain other areas where there are groups that have—
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
Would the noble Baroness give way? She has raised an interesting point. Could I describe the situation in Birmingham? My understanding is that although there will be more than one clinical commissioning group, there will clearly be one HWB group and the membership has now reached 25. There is one place for providers on it. One gets the feeling that there is a risk that it will become a talking shop. Secondly—and I declare my interest as chair of an NHS foundation trust in Birmingham—if you exclude the providers from those key discussions, you will not get a buy-in. Think of patient discharge and the relationship between reducing length of stay, preventing admissions and the support that social services needs to give packages of care. One worries that you reach a situation where the whole thing is so unwieldy that it will not really work.
Lord James of Blackheath
My Lords, could I ask the Minister a question that is definitely not medical and about which he might wish to take note for further advice later? In a cluster, does each component maintain its own solvency or do they have a collective solvency? If there is an imbalance in the size of those components and a marginally solvent large component, you run the risk of creating insolvency for the two smaller ones. That would be a severe risk for the trustees of those components.
Baroness Jolly
I have lost my thread. We are talking about Birmingham, which is humongous, and presumably any large city would have exactly the same sort of issues. Is the noble Lord arguing for coterminous clinical commissioning groups?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My point is that my amendment was a probing amendment to get some information from the Government about their intent regarding boundaries. Clearly, one of the problems that we are discussing is size and the larger you make clinical commissioning groups, the less influence GPs will have on their deliberations. The whole point about clinical commissioning groups was to put GPs in the driving seat. I do not know if Ministers know how much pressure within the system is being put upon potential clinical commissioning groups, but they are being told that they have to get large. The numbers who put themselves forward at the beginning were basically told that there was no way that they would get approval, so they have been forced into big marriages.
I simply point out that even if you take Birmingham, where there will be very big clinical commissioning groups, you will still end up with an unwieldy health and well-being board. One has to think through the implications of this if you are then trying to get a cohesive strategy on public health and on joint commissioning that pulls all of the players together—while still excluding the providers from those discussions. We started from an original prospectus that was going to give GPs real control over commissioning. That is gone. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney. I do not think that there is now any chance in the system that is being forced upon the service, that individual GPs will have any influence. As with the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, it is clear that GPs are realising this now, and that the prospectus is a false one.
Baroness Jolly
I think that the noble Lord’s point is well made. The noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, however, talked about the element of size and back office, which needs to be quite large. Small CCGs will need to share a back office, simply because that is the way it is. There will need to be shared commissioning arrangements. I think that the noble Earl, Lord Warner, was saying much the same thing: these things will not work if they are tiny but might if they are larger. I remember primary care groups, which became primary care trusts, which became bigger primary care trusts. What is a reasonable size to make all those linkages work? What we do not want is for all of these organisations to spend their days going to meetings. If we are not careful and clinical commissioning groups go over local authority boundaries then they will have to serve more than one health and well-being board.
The ideal would be to have some co-terminosity but clearly it will not work in really enormous situations. My background and experience is in rural areas, where it strikes me as the most obvious way forward. Even if that is not how it starts, that is how it probably should end up. As for the Torbay example, the PCTs are very small. However, they are also perfectly formed and have done a really good job. They are desperate to keep what they did, and did well, but they are being pressured to join a Devon PCT—which also has pressure on Plymouth, which is also part of the Devon PCT. So it is not a straightforward picture. When clinical commissioning groups put their case to the board, there needs to be some sort of nuancing in application.
Baroness Murphy
My Lords, is not the whole point of the formation of clinical commissioning groups that it should be a local solution that fits the configuration of a particular urban or rural area and that it should be decided locally with the Commissioning Board what the best fit is? I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Warner, that size is an important issue as to whether one is favouring individual GP commissioning of a personal family health service or whether one is going for the much bigger purchasing of population services. Surely the big difference with this Bill is that PCTs had no real central support for developing commissioning in the way that clinical commissioning groups will have very explicit support from the Commissioning Board. I can see that the noble Lord, Lord Warner, is shaking his head, but I think that makes a huge difference because we have seen the concentration of emphasis by the Department of Health on the acute sector, and to get a way towards having much greater leadership from the centre in developing commissioning seems to me a very positive thing.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, asks why is it only GPs—why do all professionals not get involved? All local primary care clinical professionals should have an input to the groups’ deliberations, but surely the obvious answer is that it is GPs who specifically use resources for their patients from secondary care. They actually determine the costs in secondary care through their use of secondary care hospitals; they intervene to stop secondary care—they have the possibility of doing it through provision of primary care; and they have enormous control over the funding, potentially, of the hospital system. It seems absolutely obvious that it should be GPs. The input of local dental practitioners, opticians and pharmacists is vital but they do not play the same financial role and that is why it seems to me it has to be GPs.
We cannot in this Chamber fix this Bill to lay down rules for the development of clinical commissioning groups. It would be absurd. The Commissioning Board and local people who are going to contribute to it have to make that decision. They have to be the ones to make it work. If they need to come together to commission services for rare conditions, that is fine.
Lord Warner
There are very few things in health policy on which I disagree with the noble Baroness. However, this House needs to look at what the evidence base from GP fundholding and practice-based commissioning shows us. The evidence base shows that GPs did quite well in commissioning some services. However, their actual impact on reshaping services out of acute hospitals was virtually zero. There have been some very good evaluations of GP fundholding and some less good evidence from practice-based commissioning. These showed that GPs got very close to their patients, understood what they wanted and reshaped some services. The transaction costs were seriously high in GP fundholding, which demonstrated that doing good commissioning requires a lot of data collection and analysis, which does not come cheap.
We need to understand the issue of muscle. People like the Nuffield Trust have done some good work on this. At the end of the day, the GP commissioners we have had so far were not strong enough and did not have big enough budgets or the analytical capabilities to call the shots with acute hospitals. That is the bottom line. I strongly support GP commissioning in principle. However, we are in danger of repeating the mistakes of the past and not learning from those experiences.
Baroness Murphy
I do not disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Warner. It is absolutely true that there is a balance and that size is important. Nevertheless, at the moment we are going back to a size that is approximately the same as the old district health authorities that we had between 1983 and 1992. They survived for quite a long time—
Baroness Murphy
I agree; they were too small. However, if you want to get that balance and that advantage of the clinical commissioning, it seems that, with a different sort of central support, it would be possible. With some local responses and reconfiguring of commissioning groups and the old PCTs, it can work. I do not feel quite as depressed about the clinical commissioning groups as other people.
Lord Greaves
I was going to make merely a brief intervention on this group on the question of coterminosity. However, this has extended into a much more important debate, which is coming down to some very fundamental issues in relation to clinical commissioning groups. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is to be congratulated on introducing this debate because it is absolutely crucial. We have to have it some time—if we are having it on this amendment, fine.
The noble Lord said in passing that the same issues keep coming round at different stages of the Bill. On this Bill the same issues keep coming round in different sessions in Committee. This is the second time we have talked about coterminosity. I think previously it was on an amendment from his colleague, the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton. I will not repeat everything that I said then, except to say that there has to be some flexibility. There are very good arguments for saying that CCGs should not cross local social care authority boundaries. However, the point I made previously was that in very large counties, like Lancashire or North Yorkshire or, if I think about the south of England—which I force myself to do occasionally—Hampshire and Kent perhaps, at the very least they ought to have the ability to not have a very large CCG forced on them that covers a whole county, which would be very remote indeed.
We have heard about Cornwall and Devon from my noble friend. We have heard about Birmingham. I am going to say a few things about Lancashire. I am very interested to know whether there are any noble Lords in Committee today who are very clear about what is happening in relation to setting up CCGs in their own areas, how it will work and what will come out of it. Asking colleagues on the Liberal Democrat Benches while this debate has been going on, nobody seems to know; chaos and confusion seem to be the impression. I am not saying that it is chaos and confusion, but as far as ordinary members of the public are concerned, let alone other people like myself who try to take a more direct interest, it is not very clear at all what is happening, or if what is happening is clear, it is not clear why and how it is happening. This comes back to the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, about the fact that there are very clear pressures from above that are moulding the system that is going to take place. I very much take the point from the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, that there ought to be local discretion and local decision-making here. However, that is not happening. People are being forced into decisions, and that goes against what she was saying.
Let me tell you about where I live, in east Lancashire. At the moment there are two PCTs. There is a Blackburn with Darwen PCT, because Blackburn with Darwen escaped from Lancashire County Council at some stage in the past and became a small unitary authority, so it has its own PCT. The other five districts, which are part of Lancashire County Council, have an East Lancashire PCT which, as the noble Baroness pointed out, had been formed by amalgamations over the years. There is one East Lancashire Hospitals NHS Trust that effectively covers the two PCTs, so there are two PCTs and one hospital trust at the moment. The PCTs have been combined with the rest of Lancashire into a county-wide cluster, but the East Lancashire PCT still exists.
I have recently been given a whole set of minutes and agenda papers, a great big thick file, from a relatively recent meeting—in the last few weeks—of the East Lancashire PCT. Although they find it increasingly difficult to keep going because all their chief officers have gone, there are still functions taking place at the PCT level; there are functions taking place at the cluster level, and for somebody like me who takes an interest in but is not directly involved in the health service nowadays—I used to be on a district health authority, an area health authority and a community health council, but am not now—I find it very difficult to find out where the decision-making is taking place.
Back when CCGs came along, the original idea was that they would be quite small, as the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, quite rightly said. They would be groups of GP practices within a recognisably local area. Whether that was a good or a bad idea—and in many ways it was an attractive idea—that has clearly now gone by the wayside. People were told that the minimum that you could get away with in east Lancashire was district-wide—that is the lower tier—so people were getting together and forming proto-CCGs at the district level.
In terms of population, Rossendale is about 70,000 and Pendle is probably the biggest of the five at about 90,000; it is that sort of range. The doctors who were getting together and working on these CCGs—and certainly in both Burnley and Pendle they were working closely with the district authorities to share back-room services and so on when they were set up—were told that this will not do any more. I am not at all clear who told them, but it has been made absolutely clear that there now has to be a new CCG covering the five districts, an area of 450,000 people. It is a very significantly different proposition, however you define significant, from groups of local practices, where the whole thing started off.
Blackburn and Darwen, because it is a unitary authority, is insisting that as far it is concerned, it will have its own CCG, which will be coterminous with the relatively small unitary authority, which has a population of around 140,000.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
Has that potential CCG been told that it will not get authorised? I would think that that is the way in which the system will force it into a larger merger.
Lord Greaves
I assume so, but I have no personal knowledge of the processes that are leading to these outcomes. All I hear about—from talking to people who are professionals and politicians involved in these systems and through the normal bush telegraph—is the outcome. The outcome is that there is almost certainly going to be a CCG 450,000 bigger, as I understand it, than any of the doctors involved would really like, and there have to be far fewer doctors involved from each of the districts. In my own district, it was going to be a Pendle-wide organisation where all the doctors involved would be known to a lot of people in Pendle, but now there will be just a small number from Pendle and some from Rossendale and some from far-flung parts of the Ribble valley. Meanwhile in west Lancashire, along the Fylde coast, where there is a string of small holiday towns with Blackpool in the middle and then a large area of countryside, are the two districts of Fylde and Wyre while Blackpool itself, the main town of the Fylde coast, is a unitary authority. What we understand is going to happen there—I have no direct evidence of this, it has come through the bush telegraph—is a CCG of Fylde and Wyre, a relatively smaller one, with Blackpool on its own. Of course all the hospital services and everything else are mainly in Blackpool. There does not seem to be any logic about what is going on, even though it is being defined by local authority boundaries.
I ask the Government to provide some clarity over what is happening in two ways. First it would be very helpful to have clarity on what is actually happening in each area, and for this whole process to be taking place in a much more public way. But it is not. It is all taking place out of the public gaze, and unless there are local journalists who are particularly interested in it and try to research it, nobody has the slightest idea what is going on, whether or not it is being decided locally.
More importantly, I accept what the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, says, but I think that we need an understanding of the sort of pattern which is going to result from this Bill once it is enacted and the CCGs are set up. We want a clarity of vision from the Government. What sort of number are they talking about? What range of size will be thought to be permissible? If they are saying that it could stretch from areas of 15,000 right up to a major city of half a million or so, and that sort of thing will be left to some sort of diffuse local decision-making, then that is okay, but we need to understand that. If, on the other hand the Government are saying that a lot of the groups that have been looking at this are far too small and they have to be much larger, then they are really moving towards what I might call the Lord Warner position, and again we need to understand that. We have a right to know what the outcomes of this legislation are likely to be before we allow it to go forward.
Baroness Wall of New Barnet
My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Jolly, has made a very strong argument for what might happen in her part of the world. However for London it is very different, and I want to remind noble Lords that this is about health and social care, and relate what happened in my area.
My trust is part of north central London and that cluster is now going to be merged with north east London. The cluster has been a great improvement on the separate PCTs, not just because of the way they do things, but in the whole vision they have of the health economy. One of the things that we suffered from in Barnet and Chase Farm and North Middlesex was that we were all separate, independently operating providers. We just took notice of what we were providing and what was happening around us. The BEH—Barnet, Enfield and Haringey strategy—made us look beyond that at the whole health economy. The evidence is that we have been failing in not providing social care or community care because each individual provider was looking at what was happening for them and its importance to them.
I can only share the experience that is happening in London. My view is, and our experience as a trust is, that the bigger the cluster has been and the bigger the cluster will become, the more opportunity there is to ensure that the whole health economy of the people that we serve is going to be taken into account, rather than that minuscule Barnet PCT, Enfield PCT or Haringey PCT. I know that they are much closer than Lancashire, and I come from Lancashire, so I recognise some of those areas. People are questioning what is happening in London, and it is very different. The smaller the groups, the worse it is, in my experience, because we are not addressing the whole economy.
I believe, as the noble Lord, Lord Warner, has said, that we need a much broader and wider experience in the sense of the numbers that we might have. I do not know how big is big or how good is big. What I do know is the difference that it has made, in my experience, across London, that the bigger we have got in the sense of the clusters, the better the service has been and the more able we have been to take our eye away from just acute providers to looking at what is going on in the community. We have failed to do that, and all the debates that we have been hearing in the House during the passage of the Bill have identified how much we have been failing. Most of the social care issues that we have discussed are about how we failed. In my view, as a chair of an acute trust, it is about us being focused on patients coming in to hospital rather than patients being able to have their provision elsewhere. From my experience in London, we need less of them, so that we get a complete health economy view.
Lord Greaves
What the noble Baroness, Lady Wall, says is very interesting. Does she understand what the future pattern of CCGs in that area is going to be in relation to the borough PCTs and the clusters that she is talking about?
Baroness Wall of New Barnet
In my experience, the PCTs, in a sense, do not exist any more, in my part of London; I am not sure about elsewhere. Contrary to what the noble Lord, Lord Newton, suggested, it has not happened in London. All the PCTs have not been absorbed into the cluster. The chair of each of the PCTs that were in place before the cluster and the growth of the cluster has been seconded as chair of their particular PCT. For me, the important thing is who is making the decisions about the commissioning and what view they have. What is the panorama that they are looking at, rather than the closeness of the individual boundaries? Certainly from the PCTs in London, the clusters are taking over the way that is going more and more; and their relationship with the GP commissioners is much closer than it ever was in separate PCTs, and that has been part of the issue.
Lord Greaves
I am really impressed by the enthusiasm shown by the noble Baroness. I understand exactly what she said. The way in which the clusters have been put together is exactly the same, as I understand it, as in Lancashire. What I am trying to get her to tell us, if she knows, is how many CCGs there will be in the area of her cluster once the clusters have disappeared.
Baroness Wall of New Barnet
I cannot answer for the whole of London. I really do not know. What I do know is that the more the clusters emerge, obviously the more those PCTs will be absorbed into them. My noble friend will be much more able to give you more detail about that.
What is happening in real life in north central London is that the PCTs are being absorbed into the cluster. Contrary to the experience of the noble Lord, Lord Newton, the clusters have not just taken over the whole PCTs, including staff and everything else; they have not. In fact, the chief executive of the cluster in north central London did not come from north London at all. So that is very different, I think, from some of the experiences that other people have. However, I cannot give you the view of the whole of London because I really do not have that knowledge.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, perhaps I could intervene to say that I echo everything that my noble friend said about the work of the clusters. They are covering, in my case, some 1.3 million and clearly are trying to get to grips with the strategic leadership that is required on the whole issue of reconfiguration of bed numbers and all the things that have been put off for so long. My understanding is that they go on as local field offices of the NHS Commissioning Board. That is the whole point. The question that then comes back, and where I am completely puzzled, is where on earth is GP commissioning in this? It is abundantly clear that the clinical commissioning groups are going to have very little influence. When you come to the issue of the individual GP, which was what this was all about, it is very hard to see what on earth they will be doing in terms of commissioning.
Lord MacKenzie of Culkein
May I intervene briefly, as I have my name down to Amendment 168? This has been a very important debate, and I want to return briefly to the issue of collaboration. Whatever the outcomes in size of the clinical commissioning groups, there will be a need for joint commissioning. I refer particularly, as the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has said, to some of the rare conditions, such as many of the neurological conditions, which will require a population, as I understand it, of some 250,000. For motor neurone disease this will be a population of some 500,000. It is vital that we have in the Bill something about joint commissioning for long-term illnesses. We will come back to that issue in a later group of amendments, but I want to emphasise its importance.
Baroness Tonge
My Lords, before the Minister gets up, I would like to ask him a very simple question. Noble Lords will have all realised by now that I have no faith in this Bill whatever, and never have had. I think it is totally unnecessary in the current economic circumstances, let alone other circumstances. Will the Minister tell us honestly what the reason was for clinical commissioning groups? Why could we not have kept the PCTs in whatever clusters they have formed together, and put clinicians, GPs, dentists and nurses into those groups to lead the commissioning process? Why did we have to have this massive upheaval to achieve what, according to what most of the speakers here tonight think, is not going to be achieved anyway, as the GPs will not have much input? Perhaps he could explain.
Lord Newton of Braintree
My Lords, I apologise for intervening a second time. I want to link with things I raised the first time, because I have been left in some confusion by the noble Baroness, Lady Wall—which is not her fault—said about what has been happening in London. My understanding is that at the beginning of the year the department issued a document suggesting four possible ways of doing clustering. One was along the lines that the noble Baroness spoke about. I forget what all four were, but one was that PCTs should informally group in clusters, create an informal board, and have one of the chairs, perhaps a rotating chair in some cases, who would oversee the informal cluster board. The legally existing boards would continue.
At the back end of September, the department, at least as interpreted in the east of England, issued an edict saying that there were no longer four options. There was to be one, and it would be clustering, based on appointing the same people to more than one PCT board. That raises a number of issues, as my noble friend Lord Mawhinney has indicated with unmistakeable clarity, to which he and possibly I might wish to return later. Meanwhile, how many legally separate PCT boards exist at the moment, who is on them, and were different policies pursued by the department in different parts of the country? What the noble Baroness—my noble friend—Lady Wall said suggested that a different policy had been pursued in London—not for the first time, I may say—than was being pursued in the east of England at least, and possibly everywhere else. We need some clarity, not just on what the future is going to be, but what the present is.
Earl Howe
My Lords, the principle behind clinical commissioning is that decisions about local services should be made as close to patients as possible by those who best understand their health needs. This is why the membership of CCGs should comprise GP providers, rather than other primary care providers, such as dentists, opticians and pharmacists who do not have the same relationship with patients or responsibility for a registered list. I hope this answers the question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, in his Amendment 154. However, of course effective commissioning will require the full range of clinical and professional input.
Although the members of clinical commissioning groups will be GP practices, the groups will be required to obtain advice appropriate for enabling them to effectively discharge their functions from a broad range of healthcare professionals. So this is not a matter of other professions being shut out; quite the opposite. Other professionals may also be invited by the CCG to be members of the CCG governing body and, as regards nurses, regulations may require that governing bodies include certain healthcare professionals, such as a nurse and hospital doctor. Also, other clinicians could be directly involved in influencing the decision-making of the CCG through, for example, membership of a committee of the CCG, without needing to be members. The basic point is that the function of clinical commissioning is directly linked to the function of the general practitioner and we should not risk diluting the effectiveness of the proposed approach.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, suggested that CCGs will not be led by clinicians. I am surprised to hear the noble Lord say that, especially as he has been paying tribute to the work of the NHS Alliance and Dr Mike Dixon for whom I, too, have a high regard. I understand that when Dr Dixon spoke at the NHS Alliance Conference this morning he said that we stand close to liberation of clinicians on a grand scale. That indicates to me that he believes that this is a huge opportunity for primary care clinicians.
My noble friend Lady Tonge asked what this is all about. The philosophy behind these new organisations is different from what we currently have. Clinical commissioning is about placing the financial power to change health services into the hands of those NHS professionals whom the public trust most and giving GPs the flexibility within the legislative framework to The Bill sets out high-level requirements for working together, including at new Section 14Z1 in Clause 23 provision for CCGs to enter into arrangements with other CCGs to exercise their commissioning functions. That addresses the point that was made earlier about commissioning for groups of patients who are smaller in number in a small area. One has to commission at the right level. These can include both joint and lead commissioning arrangements and this may be a topic which the board chooses to cover in its commissioning guidance.
The process of the local development of commissioning organisations is well under way, with pathfinders—emerging CCGs—coming together to begin to explore approaches to commissioning and building up their organisations, supported by the PCT clusters, about which I will talk in a moment. The board will be responsible for undertaking a rigorous assessment of all prospective CCGs, prior to authorisation, to ensure, for instance, that they are of an appropriate size, that they cover an appropriate area and have put the appropriate arrangements in place to be effective commissioners. I would say to my noble friend Lady Jolly that there will be a presumption in favour of coterminosity with local authority boundaries. But as we have previously discussed, and as advised by the Future Forum, local flexibility must include, in exceptional circumstances, the flexibility to cross a local authority boundary where that is appropriate to patient flows.
I am afraid that I do not agree that we should place arbitrary constraints on the number of CCGs or on their budgets as Amendment 157 would do. I appreciate the keenness of noble Lord, Lord Warner to ensure that the maximum resources available are devoted to patient care. The Government share that concern, but the way to do this is to ensure appropriate controls over administration costs and ensure good governance on how that money is spent and the outcomes that it delivers.
Lord Mawhinney
My noble friend said that they would have to decide on the appropriate size. Does he know what that size is approximately likely to be, and if so could he share it with us? Or is that something that is still to be determined?
Earl Howe
I am grateful to my noble friend and I was coming on to that very point, which was a question posed by the noble Lord, Lord Warner and others—my noble friend Lord Greaves expatiated on that theme. Our starting point is this: we do not wish to be unduly prescriptive about the size of clinical commissioning groups. There have been widespread variations in the size and population coverage of PCTs and there is no evidence to suggest that there is a single right size. If one looks at the history of the National Health Service over the last 20 years it has been an attempt by successive Governments to find a right size and we never quite succeeded. It is important that solutions develop from the bottom up and are not imposed from above.
Lord Greaves
I apologise for intervening, but if that is the case can my noble friend the Minister tell me who told the group of GPs in Pendle, who had been developing proposals for a CCG, that they would have to go in with the other four districts in East Lancashire?
Earl Howe
My Lords, in those instances, and they are very few, where a pathfinder CCG is of a manifestly unviable size, then it is right that they should receive advice to that effect at an early juncture. Advice is the word. The initial thinking is simply suggesting that emerging groups should be considering the impact of their proposed configurations on their organisational viability and the degree of sharing roles and functions or the use of commissioning support that they might need.
Lord Greaves
Is my noble friend, therefore telling me that a well defined borough with a population of 90,000 is manifestly unviable for this purpose?
Lord Warner
I thought I would get my question in before the noble Lord gets warmed up again. He said there is no indication from the evidence from the past of what the right size for a PCT was, but there is some evidence from the past. I do not think that there was ever constructed a PCT of under 100,000 population, which compares with 18,000 in Radlett for a CCG. If you actually look at what happened when we asked PCTs and SHAs to work together and engage in local consultation in 2005-06 on reformulating PCTs, the general thrust of what they came forward with was twofold: it was to be bigger in size and to be a better match with the boundaries of the upper-tier local authorities, which were the social services authorities. So there was some evidence that people themselves, when engaged in an exercise of reorganisation, moved towards bigger organisations and coterminosity with social care authorities.
Earl Howe
Earlier on I noted that the noble Lord drew parallels between CCGs and his attempts when he was a Minister to reduce the number of PCTs. I do feel there is a critical difference. The decision to establish a certain number of PCTs was taken in Richmond House by Ministers. I am not saying those decisions were arbitrary—of course they were not—but they certainly were not bottom-up. With CCGs, the onus is on GP practices to determine the most appropriate size and configuration for their local population. As I have said, the board will then rigorously assess whether this proposal will result in the CCG being able to fulfil its functions. That is a judgment, but it is a proper fitness for purpose test which PCTs never had to go through. I simply do not accept that, come April 2013, there is likely to be a raft of CCGs failing. If a CCG’s proposed constitution is not robust, then it will not receive full authorisation.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
I do not think that is quite fair, since I was involved in setting up PCTs. I accept the strictures of my noble friend about whether we made them too small. As for the idea that Ministers came up with PCTs, it was of course the service which, basically, came and made recommendations. Frankly, the same tiers are deciding on CCGs as decided on PCTs. There has been huge pressure on CCGs to come together and merge. Yes, it started as a bottom-up idea, but I have to put it to the Minister that the reason why I quoted Dr Mike Dixon is because he, like many people, knows that the “forces of bureaucracy”, as the noble Earl, Lord Howe, likes to put it, have been very strong and have basically said to CCGs that they will not get anywhere unless they merge.
Earl Howe
Yes, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, suggested earlier that there was a process of shoe-horning CCGs into certain shapes and sizes, forcing them to take up external support and merge commissioning functions. I emphasise that CCGs will not be forced to take up external support or merge functions. What is happening at the moment is a process of advice and information from the centre. Obviously, the board will not authorise the establishment of any CCG which could not satisfy the board of its ability to discharge its functions and be an effective commissioner. We want to ensure that the process is not too bureaucratic or cumbersome. The noble Lord suggested that it was likely to be, but I do not accept that. We are working with stakeholders to ensure that emerging CCGs can articulate their requirements for commissioning support. I do not accept the picture that he has painted.
My noble friend Lord Newton spoke about the clustering of PCTs. Clusters bring together PCTs to prepare for and support the transition to clinical commissioning. Until PCT abolition in April 2013, they continue to exercise their functions and remain statutorily responsible for their functions until abolition. Pathfinders, or emerging CCGs, can act as sub-committees of PCTs until this time. The role of PCT clusters during the transition is to support clinical commissioning groups, not dictate how they operate. For the reasons that I have stated, it is important that CCGs have the freedom to develop their own solutions from the bottom up and that they are fully supported in doing so. The latest operating framework for the NHS emphasises this and we will see that it is acted upon.
My noble friend Lord James queried the legal arrangements. The process of clustering has been open and transparent. If it is acceptable to noble Lords, I can provide a written update on the latest position, giving the numbers, locations and so on, to save time.
Lord Greaves
If a CCG pathfinder can operate in the mean time as a committee of the PCT, will it act as a sub-committee of the PCT or of the cluster?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I thank the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for his response. This has been a really good debate, which has gone to the heart of the Bill and the Government’s intentions. I would like to come back to a point that the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, made when she reminded us of the central tenet of the Secretary of State. Essentially it is that GPs are responsible, like GPs the world over, for most expenditure in the NHS, either through their referrals or through their prescribing decisions. The clear intent was to put budgetary responsibility with referral and prescribing responsibility, in the hope that it would lead to a more cost-effective system. I think the issue that many noble Lords have is that in the way this has emerged and in the guidance that has been given by the board and the department it is becoming clear that the influence of the individual GPs within this huge structure that is being established is likely to be very limited. On the other hand my Lords, because of the mantra of the Bill and the reforms, patients are likely to believe that it is their GPs who are making the commissioning decisions. Therein lies trouble, because I think the GPs are going to be in a very unenvious position. We as patients will hold them to account for commissioning decisions in a way they have never been held account before, but their influence on commissioning is going to be very limited indeed. I think this has been a very good debate, I beg to withdraw my amendment.
Prevent Strategy
(13 years ago)
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Baroness Stowell of Beeston
My Lords, I hope noble Lords will find it helpful if I remind the House that the next debate is a time-limited debate and, with the exception of the noble Lord, Lord Noon and my noble friend the Minister, speeches are limited to four minutes. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford has also requested to speak in the gap.
Lord Noon
My Lords, the Government’s revised Prevent strategy was presented to Parliament in June this year. It is an integral part of the broader fight against terrorism and I welcome the opportunity to have this short debate about the implications of this strategy, and of extremism and integration. The thinking behind Prevent was that there needed to be a proactive response to the threat of so-called home-grown terrorists. I do not want to speak about the merits or failure of the original strategy. Other noble Lords, including my noble friend Lord Carlile, who provided the important independent oversight for the review of Prevent, are much more of an authority on this issue than me.
I am not a policy man, I am a businessman and I like to speak my mind in a straightforward way, which, in business as in life, is usually the best way. You may be aware that I have been a victim of deadly terrorist attack not once but twice. The extreme fear that I and my family experienced, the shocking uncertainty of being sandwiched between life and death, brought home forcefully the grief and devastation of the families who suddenly, unexpectedly lose loved ones. We have seen this horror here in the UK with the 7 July terrorist attacks in London. What is worse is that the 7/7 attack was carried out by young men born and brought up in the UK. The Prevent strategy is supposed to stop people from ever going down this path. It is about confronting people at an early point so that they do not become extremists.
Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Jains and Buddhists all have the right to practise their religion freely in Great Britain. The strong civil rights movement here ensures that we can express our religious and political beliefs freely. At the same time, there is a thousand years of tradition of the supremacy of the law—we must abide by the law even as we practise in private the faith of our choice. What has gone wrong is that a tiny minority refuse to accept that. Instead they wish to impose their beliefs on the majority. Noble Lords will agree with me that the majority of Muslims are law-abiding, peaceful and patriotic citizens, as was reported in the Sunday Times on 20 November. I see no conflict between practising Islam and abiding by the rules of the law of this country, and I speak as a Muslim.
I have expressed my views many times, in speech as well as in print. People who do not accept the British way of life should find another acceptable country where they can live happily, and leave us alone. Often they come here as economic migrants and then oppose our common values. In many cases, they are running away from harsh regimes that do not permit dissent. I am a staunch supporter of the British values of democracy, decency, fairness and integration. I say, live and let live. We should give a robust retort to those who oppose integration: we cannot have small, independent enclaves within our country that are a law unto themselves. I agree with the Prime Minister’s words in Munich earlier this year that we have not done enough in standing up to those who oppose our way of life.
I find it confusing that the Prevent strategy makes a distinction between two things. On one hand, the strategy says that having a strong sense of belonging and citizenship makes people more resilient to extremism. Then, on the other hand, it states:
“Policy and programmes to deal with extremism and with extremist organisations more widely are not part of Prevent and will be co-ordinated from the Department for Communities and Local Government”.
Could the Minister tell me what these wider policies and programmes are that are not part of Prevent? Surely these are things that promote cohesion, interfaith dialogue and citizenship. If the success of the programme depends on our sense of belonging—which is what I call integration—then how could this not be a part of Prevent? By separating integration and extremism, the Prevent strategy will create its own pitfalls. How do local councillors know what to do? Where is the guidance that explains how to know the difference between an extremist acting against our country and others who need support and direction to become more integrated? Where is the line drawn between dealing with extremists and promoting integration? Surely these are two sides of the same coin.
What about young people? How will the youth worker or the teacher know what to do? We need a strong initiative for the youth; after all, it is the youth who get lured into extremism at youth clubs and universities. The hunting fields for fresh recruits to terrorism are the stamping grounds of young people. That is where we need to be: to reorient them into a life of decency; to give them a sense of belonging; to make them proud to be British; and to make them see that using religion as an excuse for violence goes against its very tenets.
What about the police? I often speak to them on this issue. I ask them why individuals or groups who are violently opposed to our way of life and the laws of this country are allowed to be here. The police say that their hands are tied; they often have no case. It seems that the human rights of criminals outweigh those of the rest of us law-abiding citizens. Even when they manage to bring such a person to court, the Crown Prosecution Service tells the police that the criminal is the one who needs protection. It strikes me that in trying to make Prevent more focused, the Government have risked making it less effective. Even more seriously, I believe that this fudge makes things much worse. It risks further alienating those communities that feel the most stigmatised and targeted by Prevent, especially the Muslim community.
The danger of focusing only on a certain religious group was made clearer to us by the terrible events in Norway in July this year, when a right-wing extremist not only set off a bomb in the city, killing eight people, but then went on to shoot and kill 69 innocent children and young people who were taking part in a summer school. Such acts of extreme violence are not restricted to ideology, whether religious or political. Rather, these terrible acts are born of hatred, racism and ignorance. We ignore these risks at our peril.
In summary, I have a very simple bottom line, which is that preventing terrorism depends on strengthening integration. In my straightforward way of looking at things, there is definitely a problem because the strategy actually causes confusion about this issue. I welcome the idea that we need to confront people more when they express extreme ideas such as threatening to burn poppies, abusing our brave soldiers returning home from the front line in Basra or asking for Sharia law in this country. Let us not forget honour killing, although I do not know what honour there is in killing. Surely this is not acceptable. We need to go further. We need to ensure that we not only confront these people but that we actually deal with them in order to protect the citizens of this country. We need to be clear that this is about anyone who opposes our way of life, anyone who does not clearly stand up for democracy and freedom of choice. Integration is our greatest strength and we must not allow our resolve to protect it to be weakened by a muddled approach to extremism.
I am sure that noble Lords will have many further issues that they wish to bring to this debate, and I look forward to hearing them.
Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon
My Lords, first, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Noon, for initiating this debate.
9/11 and 7/7 changed Britain and the world. From London to Lahore, from New York to New Delhi, terrorism cannot be ignored. A new kind of terror emerged with 9/11, as we saw on 7/7, attacking the very basis and basics of British society—a society enriched by its secular democracy, multitude of faiths and diversity of communities. The terrorists used the ultimate weapon, destroying their own lives to take the lives of others. They sought legitimacy then, as they do now, 10 years on, by cloaking their vile and heinous acts in the name of religion—of Islam. Yet these criminal acts are far removed from the principles of Islam which, not only in its teachings but in the essence of its very name, stands for peace. Islam unreservedly and totally rejects all forms of terrorism and violence. Islam—indeed, all religions—cannot sanction violence and bloodshed of innocent men, women and children in the name of God. However, the reality is that there are some who seek to hijack noble religions and principles, to perversely interpret them and through their misguided actions, often fuelled by extremist preachers, seek to bring about terror. As 9/11 and 7/7 demonstrated, they succeed in carrying out such acts.
Against this backdrop of real and present danger which surfaced 10 years ago and continues to this day, we need to take action on prevention and, more importantly, a permanent and lasting solution to eradicating this evil from our society. Therefore, I welcome the new Prevent strategy, for it recognises the need to tackle the ideological challenge and the threat from those who promote terror and extremism. It is not aimed at those with legitimate religious beliefs. As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister has said, to be devout in faith should not be equated to extremism; indeed, if you are truly devout about faith you are anything but an extremist.
Prevent deals with all forms of terrorism, but I seek my noble friend the Minister’s assurance that, while wider programmes dealing with extremism and its implications do not fall under the regime of Prevent—they are co-ordinated by the Department for Communities and Local Government—there is no disconnect between the two, as the noble Lord, Lord Noon, has said. I would further ask that educational programmes aimed at curbing the rise of extremism in our future generations—such as the excellent 9/11 Education Programme, launched nationally in September this year and already rolled out to 20 schools, supported by many, including my noble friend Lord Fink—are also co-ordinated with a more cohesive programme. I would also seek the Minister’s assurance that stringent steps are taken to eradicate these extremist preachers who come to our shores to preach hate. There should be a simple message sent to them: they are not welcome.
Prevention of terrorism, integration of communities —as the noble Lord, Lord Noon has said—and education of our future generations are all part of the same equation. They are three essential components which form the basis of eradicating extremism, protecting the deep-rooted and long-established traditions of our country and providing the lasting solution we all greatly desire.
Baroness Hamwee
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Noon, has asked a most important question. In the short time available I want to focus on integration and make one point. I wonder whether the answer to the noble Lord’s question is partly characterised by the speakers list that we have tonight—10 speakers. How many of us are what my late noble friend Lord Jenkins termed “ancient Britons”? I think it is a fair bet that the eighth Baron Henley is. I do not want to make assumptions about the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, but excluding the Government and Opposition Front Benches, look at our names. Mine is because my family, not very long ago, came from Hama in Syria—a place where I am very glad not to be.
Is it that our speakers tonight feel a particular responsibility to take part, and should it rest only on their shoulders? Beyond this House, have we made assumptions about who should integrate with whom, about who needs to take active steps and who can sit back and dissociate themselves from the issue? Have we made assumptions about “us” and “them”? Have we made assumptions about what Britain today is or should be? It is not the same as when I was born. It is not the same as when Victorians ruled the world—and on that subject I have said before in the context of immigration that I find the term, “the brightest and the best”, whom we are seeking to attract, very difficult because of its implications. It takes us to the question of what we think is the Britain into which we are seeking integration. Integration, of itself, does not secure loyalty to a set of values or instil patriotism; they are more than learnt behaviours. It is about a view of society and one’s place in it, and perhaps we should be talking more about social cohesion in a wider sense.
I know that far more is going on than just the Prevent strategy. Both noble Lords who have spoken have referred to this, but I think it is important not to do anything to consolidate the widespread view that a particular ethnic background or a particular faith and terrorism are in any way synonymous.
Baroness Prashar
My Lords, I, too, want to thank the noble Lord, Lord Noon, for initiating this debate. The new Prevent strategy states that a clear distinction between counterterrorism work and integration strategy is necessary if it is to succeed and that the two must not be confused but, as has already been said, there is a fundamental link between fighting home-grown terrorism and creating a more integrated society. While the government strategy recognises that, we do not have a clearly understood and clearly articulated policy on how to develop a sense of belonging, how to create support for our core values or how to encourage integration. If anything, it is rather muddled.
Britishness was seized upon as a way of building a cohesive society, and multiculturalism was seen as divisive, but cultural diversity and pluralism do not threaten cohesiveness; inequality does. They are in fact the essence of Britishness. For a plural society to be successful, we need shared respect for and loyalty to the law of the land. In seeking to promote diversity, we must not stifle robust discussion or debate on issues that are of legitimate public concern, no matter how unpalatable they are. We need more, not less, freedom of speech to combat the propaganda promoted by extremism. We need open, frank dialogue and debate to enhance understanding between different communities and religious groups. We need to cherish diversity without undermining our common bonds of citizenship and respect for the law, thus helping what I call the evolution of a plural society through democratic processes. We need to work to inculcate this in our citizens, particularly the young. The Prevent strategy recognises the need to work with sectors and institutions where there is a risk of verticalisation. Universities are such institutions, not just as informers, though that may be necessary, but as promoters of free speech. Universities are reluctant, for they fear to be seen as curbing freedom of speech. Propaganda machinery must not be allowed to hide behind the pretence of freedom of speech and claims of human rights. Distorted and loaded messages that manipulate the young must not go unchallenged. Universities are well placed both to challenge propaganda designed to radicalise students, and also to provide experience of rational debate in safe spaces. As John Ruskin said,
“Education does not mean teaching people to know what they do not know—it means teaching them to behave as they do not behave”,
as members of the family, of the community, of the nation and of the world. To succeed in the long run we need to challenge and deal with those promoting extreme ideology, but also to provide safe spaces like universities and other educational institutions, where learning about citizenship can take place. We also need to develop a consistent narrative about what a vibrant, diverse and integrated society is. I hope the Government will promote that.
Lord Sheikh
My Lords, this coalition Government spent over a year reviewing the Prevent strategy and produced a clear, focused strategy on tackling extremism, as well as focusing resources on key institutions like universities, prisons, schools and colleges. This strategy looks at countering the ideology rather than just the violent action of extremists. This is the fundamental difference between the previous Government and this one.
People who espouse extremist views may be more prone and susceptible to being primed and moulded towards extremism, especially if they live in segregated communities and have little interaction with other communities. Extremism is also based on people being excluded and separated, and these are ideas that we should not allow in our communities whether they are al-Qaeda inspired, or whether they are far right or EDL-inspired. Separation and segregation have no part to play in our modern state. These phenomena have been rejected globally and they must equally be rejected here. There is a link between extremism and a lack of integration, and we need to acknowledge this.
However we must be more nuanced in our understanding and approach towards communities. We must acknowledge that there are groups of individuals who are integrated in every sense of the word. They work, they speak English, and they are living quiet and happy lives in different parts of our country. Yet they choose not to engage with other communities and they may also feel aggrieved and angry at what is taking place regarding international or domestic issues that affect their fellow brothers and sisters. These people cannot be viewed as being non-integrationist, but they may hold extreme views. They may, however, not be patriotic about this country, though that is different from not being integrated. The link between extremism and a lack of integration is not clear in these cases, and we must be aware that there are a set of competing circumstances affecting different communities. I firmly believe that we have moved in the right direction in terms of the Prevent work, which is now being undertaken, which is much more focused on interventions and countering extremist ideology. There is no simple solution around integration, and we need to look at situations in different parts of the country and with different generational groups, through multiple lenses and not through one single lens of understanding. Yet a lack of integration may leave some persons more susceptible to manipulation and thereby be used to promote extremist ideology. Sometimes the lack of integration can be self-imposed and the individual concerned may be completely devoid of extremist narratives and ideologies. Yet we can all agree that communities need to celebrate being part of their local areas and do all they can to make these areas places where they feel that they have a future.
At the very least this is the healthiest option we can take. I would like to end by saying there was a survey published in the Sunday Times a few weeks ago which found that Muslims are more patriotic than the rest of the population. This shows Muslims have gone a long way towards integrating with society and shows Muslims in a different light compared with what is being portrayed in the media. Islam is a religion of peace and this philosophy is shown visually in my coat of arms.
Lord Patel of Bradford
My Lords, I am most grateful to my noble friend, Lord Noon, for having introduced this debate. Prevent is a very important strategy and one that I am very familiar with, having been asked by the previous Secretary of State for Committees and Local Government to undertake a rapid review of the original Prevent strategy. Over a period of several weeks, I visited 12 local authority areas and spoke to more than 700 people about their experiences of and attitudes to the Prevent strategy. The confidential report that I produced for the Secretary of State outlined a number of areas where I thought there needed to be improvements. Some of these issues have been addressed in the current revised strategy, which on the whole I welcome, but there are two particular issues which I believe need further clarification. Firstly, how are people, especially young people, engaged in Prevent? Secondly, how are professionals and elected officials being given the skills and confidence they need to challenge extremism and the way in which this causes further segregation between communities?
I shall speak first about the engagement of young people, and as the chairman of an organisation called the International Forum for Community Innovations, otherwise known as TIFCI. TIFCI works with a wide range of community groups across the country and has just finished a piece of work on extremism and the risks for young people from radicalisation. The work explored the issues for young people and the particular risks they face from radicalisation and extremism. During the course of the work TIFCI spoke directly to over 130 young people and children of both sexes, from a wide range of ethnic, religious and cultural backgrounds. In the first place, the risk they most strongly identified was that from the far right, particularly the EDL, which they perceived to be causing disruption and harm to their sense of belonging and community cohesion. We very clearly should not take our focus off the threats posed by the far right. But what struck me even more strongly was the near universal view that, as young people—a key group who are identified as being most at risk—they were not actively consulted or involved in finding solutions and strategies to deal with the problems. Many of them said, when commenting on the work programme of TIFCI, that it was the first time anyone had even asked them about this issue. Does the Minister agree that young people, especially those at risk, should, wherever possible, be involved in and actively engaged with any work undertaken in this area and could he say something about what is being done to encourage this?
From my experience, including the work that I did reviewing the previous Prevent strategy, I believe that the second key issue concerns the skills and confidence among professionals and elected officials on the ground and their ability to challenge people and to address some of the issues that divide our communities. I strongly believe that they have not been adequately equipped to do this. Sadly—I have seen evidence of this many times in my work on community engagement —there remain deep divisions in our society and too many communities live separate lives, having little or no contact with their neighbouring communities even within their same town or ward. I agree with my noble friend Lord Noon that it is this division, the lack of community cohesion integration that is the greatest threat to our security. It is in this failure to have people meeting and interacting with each other outside their immediate family and community networks that the greatest risks of extremism and radicalisation take hold. If we recognise this then we can start to move away from thinking simply about one religious group or another and begin to work with whole communities and finding solutions that truly promote integration and challenge extremism. This is going to take high quality training for professionals and elected officials and at local levels we need to see clear implementation plans that provide direction and leadership. I would be very grateful if the Minister in his closing remarks could explain what plans are being developed to implement training and capacity building for professionals, youth workers, social workers, and very importantly, elected officials, to ensure that they can take the leadership on addressing these important issues at a local level.
Lord Hameed
My Lords, I convey my tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Noon, for introducing this subject this evening. In 2011 we live in a world of extraordinary progress and opportunity and yet it is a world in which 1 in 5 people lives in abject poverty. One in 6 children never reaches their fifth birthday and 115 million children worldwide do not even go to primary school; and with poverty comes a multitude of other bad things. And yet, it is nothing like the only reason why one group resents another, but it is a big reason.
Poverty is also a reason for our concern about terror, and the real and perceived threat of violence, locally, nationally and internationally from radicalised or marginalised people. Their route to terrorism can be found in many things: in faith, ethnicity, culture, nationality, poverty, economic and political causes, and more. A lot of people readily associate terror with religious fundamentalism. Any religion can be vilified, and indeed in this country we have known militant Christianity and militant Islam. The great contradiction of fundamental politics—its epic flow—is that it cannot deliver on the greatest problem that provokes its rise, which is economic deprivation.
Rage is not an economic policy. Violence is not the antidote to economic progress. It can succeed at moments of high social stress, or public rage. Ordinary people hunger for bread, not guns. This is what keeps the overwhelming majority away from fundamentalism. The bad news is that it takes less than 1 per cent to wreak havoc upon us.
We have here in the United Kingdom a multi-religious and multiethnic society. Here dialogue is the only way forward for addressing our differences. We ought to celebrate our commonality and discuss our differences based on mutual respect and trust in each other. It is imperative that we engage in a continuing dialogue. This dialogue is no longer the luxury of a few well-meaning individuals. It has become a necessity, demanding action, without which only catastrophe stares us in the face.
The other message that should go out from us is that Islam, like other faiths, prohibits not only the killing of innocent people, but is most severe on the act of suicide. There is a clear Koranic instruction against taking one’s own life. Therefore, let me state clearly, for all to hear, that exploding bombs and firing bullets in an act of suicide, with the intent to kill, is totally un-Islamic and against the teachings of the Koran. All Muslims must therefore do everything to stop this evil depravity.
The 1.5 billion Muslims who live in this world are peaceful and law-abiding. They also make good neighbours and exercise responsible citizenship, and resent being stigmatised with negative religious profiling, which is inflammatory.
Finally, many Muslims believe that the savage cruelty and cynicism mirrored in the abuse at Abu Ghraib prison, Guantanamo Bay and at Bagram in Afghanistan, as well as rendition flights, waterboarding, and other methods of interrogation are not helpful in our pursuit to harmonise the radicalisation of young people because, more than anything, they are the best recruitment ground for the terrorists.
Baroness Flather
My Lords, may I first thank the noble Lord, Lord Noon, for giving us this opportunity to say how we feel about this issue? It is a very important issue, and I have given it much thought, over a long period of time. There are now cities in this country with areas where no white people live and no white people go, and usually they are Muslim areas. It is very sad, because in fact the people who live there have no desire to mix with the white people. There is of course a reason for it, and I think the noble Lord, Lord Hameed, has very properly touched on it.
They feel they are disliked by us. The Muslims now feel that people of this country think of every Muslim as a terrorist. That has had a very important and negative effect on relationships. We all know, of course, what Islam is like, but do they know what Islam is like? I am surprised that none of your Lordships has mentioned what happens in mosques, which are the crucial areas where recruitment and extremisation of people takes place.
Lord Sheikh
You have made a statement about mosques. Where is your evidence?
Baroness Flather
I will get you evidence, but I do not have it to hand at the moment. I hope you realise that it is happening. Schoolchildren go to mosques every day; they have no time to do their homework and they are falling behind in education. What is wrong with seeing that the imams are properly educated, that they can speak English and that they know what Islam teaches? One of the most important aspects of starting integration is making sure that people who go to a mosque are taught Islam in the proper way, as has been spoken about in this Chamber. I am sorry to say this is not happening.
The second point, which I am very keen on, is that the young—young men in particular—are not skilled in anything. It is time we started programmes for skilling them. Education is important, and they are lagging behind in it, but if we can give them a skill to earn their living, we might see a change in their lives. We do not want young people to not get jobs, to live on benefits all their lives and then start the trend again. Their fathers may be on benefits, they are going to be on benefits, their children will be on benefits. This is what happened in Northern Ireland. We must stop this somewhere. We have to start doing programmes, we have to skill them, and we have to make sure that they are capable of holding proper jobs. This will give them self-respect and respect from other people as well, which is very important. I repeat that we must make sure the imams in the mosques are properly educated and are teaching the people proper Islam, not what they think is Islam. If you talk to young Muslim people, they do not think like that. They do not say “Islam is a religion of peace”. They say that they want this country to become Islamic; they want to change this country into an Islamic country.
I am also very concerned about the advent of Sharia, particularly because it is discriminatory against women. That is not the way we live in this country. We have an Equality Act, yet we allow Sharia, which is totally discriminatory to women, to deal with family situations. No boy over seven is given to the mother—he automatically goes to the father. Property rights are not respected. I hope that your Lordships, especially those of you who are Muslims, will do your best to change these things.
The Lord Bishop of Hereford
My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to contribute to this debate. The first objective in the Prevent strategy is,
“challenging the ideology that supports terrorism and those who promote it”.
It slightly surprised me that the word “ideology” is used in the singular, when, as other noble Lords have said, there are—sadly and tragically—many ideologies that, in their own different ways, support terrorism. The counter to any bad ideology, whichever it may be, is not no ideology but good ideology. The report refers to core values. The counter to bad core values is not no core values but good core values. The counter to bad religion is not no religion but good religion.
This begs questions for us: how do we learn our good ideologies and our good religion? As we know, these things are not just taught but caught. Therefore, the approach has to be surely one that covers the areas that the report refers to: education, and all the aspects of that to which reference has already been made, but I would also love to see a greater emphasis on the sense of relationship, community-building and integration to which the noble Lord, Lord Noon, and others have referred. There is the need for us to make sure that not only are good ideology and good vision caught, but there are plenty of examples and that people have the opportunity to catch them because they see them and hear them. I also endorse the truth in the report that this is about process. The catching and the teaching are always about the process, not single steps or single actions. This therefore also emphasises to me the need for integration and cohesion, to which reference has been made by many noble Lords.
Isolation in all its forms needs to be countered. Where individuals or small groups of people are cut off from others, it can help contribute to and provide a soil in which extremism, and the distorted thinking that goes with any kind of extremism, whether it leads to terrorism or in any other way, can more easily flourish and grow. Again I would totally endorse the comments that have been made about the way in which poverty, among other social ills, provides that isolation.
One strategy does not stand alone. I would be delighted to hear the Minister talk about the way in which this strategy sits alongside other strategies and work on community cohesion, the development, building -up and strengthening of our communities and the avoidance of those social ills that cause the very divisions that can further isolate. A strategy like this has to be put within a total context that helps us to strengthen the relationships within communities. As others will know, a research project was undertaken by Vivien Lowndes and Leila Thorp on the Prevent strategy. They identified a community safety focus, a community cohesion focus and a community development focus in three different cities. All of these are about developing community.
Again, the Minister may wish to comment on those insights and help us to understand more about how the Government are working to overcome people’s isolation, identify those most at risk to stop them being isolated and stop the unemployment and the other things that help fuel the isolation so that the integration—the interfaith and Muslim forums and so on—can all play their stronger part in helping stronger communities and cohesion and therefore community safety for us all.
Lord Rosser
My Lords, I add my thanks to my noble friend Lord Noon on securing this debate and for speaking in such a forthright way about his personal experiences and his strong concerns and reservations. Following the bombings in London in July 2005, much work was done on the development of Prevent—work which was largely breaking new ground since it was needed to disrupt the process of radicalisation when there was no previous experience to draw on. The strategy was launched in 2007 and its objective was to seek to stop people becoming terrorists or supporting terrorism both in the UK and overseas. It was the preventative strand of the then Government’s counter-terrorism strategy.
In view of the fact that it was breaking new ground, there was clearly going to be a need to review and update the Prevent strategy in the light of experience, including experience of the different approaches adopted. This Government have undertaken such a review as part of their wider review of counterterrorism. An independent oversight of the Prevent review was provided by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile of Berriew. In his preface to the Government’s Prevent strategy, the noble Lord said, among other things, that generally, Prevent had been productive.
The Government have said that their Prevent strategy will involve work with sectors and institutions where there are perceived to be risks of radicalisation which need to be addressed. On this point, perhaps the Minister could say what has happened since the review was published in June. We know that the Secretary of State has healthcare providers and universities in mind, so what is she expecting the NHS and universities to do that they have not previously been doing? What has been their response, bearing in mind previously expressed views by Universities UK and the BMA on this issue?
Last June, the Secretary of State said that Prevent was about acting on information from the police, security and intelligence agencies, local authorities and community organisations to help those specifically at risk of turning towards terrorism. Since it involves the security and intelligence agencies, can the Minister say whether the Intelligence and Security Committee will be involved in evaluating the effectiveness of the Prevent strategy? Could he also say against what criteria and objectives will the Government assess the effectiveness or otherwise of the Prevent strategy?
The Government have said that Prevent depends on a successful integration strategy, which will be the responsibility of the Department for Communities and Local Government. What kind of financial resources will be available next year and in future years, since there have already been significant cuts from the Prevent funding for local councils this year and there appear to be further cuts to come? Police budgets and numbers are also being cut. What kind of priority have police forces committed themselves to give to the Government’s Prevent strategy, since the Government have said that Prevent is about acting on information from the police?
The Government have also said that public funding for Prevent must be rigorously prioritised and comprehensively audited. What does that statement mean in terms of the amount of funding for Prevent—not least on training and personnel—that will be provided in future from the Home Office and other departments? Will funding be going up or will it go down? What link-up will there be between the Home Office initiatives and the DCLG integration strategy to ensure that they complement each other? In the House of Commons on 7 June, the Home Secretary said that the Government’s Prevent strategy,
“will stop the radicalisation of vulnerable people. Above all, it will tackle the threat from home-grown terrorism”.—[Official Report; Commons, 7/6/11; col. 54.]
Note that the Home Secretary did not say that the strategy was designed to achieve those objectives, or that it would make an important contribution to achieving them. She said it would achieve those objectives. If it remains the Government’s view that their Prevent strategy will single-handedly and without doubt achieve those objectives in full, then I fear that the Government have underestimated the complexity and difficulty of what they are quite rightly seeking to achieve, or that they are as interested in rhetoric as they are in seeking to build on, develop and update in a consensual way the work that has already been done under the Prevent strategy.
The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Henley)
My Lords, before I deal with the major part of this debate, there are three points I want to make. The first is that my noble friend Lady Hamwee, looking at the names on the list of speakers, possibly said that I was a very ancient Briton. The important thing to explain at this stage is not that I am an ancient Briton, but I am about as Anglo-Saxon as you can get. I will go on to say that I live in a village which I think has a Norse name; my nearest town, the county town of Carlisle, has an old British name; and I live in the county of Cumbria. As the late Lord Cledwyn of Penrhos—a great friend of mine and of noble Lords opposite—always reminded me, Cumbria is exactly the same word as Cymru. They are of the same etymological origin.
I make this point not for any flippant reasons, but to point out that in the United Kingdom we have experienced immigration of one sort or another for many, many years. We have adapted and have place names that reflect the vast array of different people who have come here at different stages and different times. We have gone on accepting immigrants from year to year and over the years. This is something that we should be proud of: the Huguenots who came here, the Jews who had been expelled, and others such as the Normans who came here under rather different circumstances. Possibly we objected to that at the time, but we got used to it later on. These things have been going on for some time. We are all mongrels in this country, and it is something that possibly we should all be proud of. I hope that we can all continue to integrate in the best possible way.
The second point that I want to make before I get on to the substance of the debate relates to the remarks made by the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, about the need for more freedom of speech, particularly in universities. This touched me particularly as a former spokesman for higher education in this House, both quite recently and before 1997. I certainly agree with her that at times the universities should be faintly embarrassed by what they have or have not allowed to happen in terms of freedom of speech. We should all take note of that point, and I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for reminding us of it.
The third introductory point that I want to make refers to the opening remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Noon, when he talked about that 1,000-year tradition of the rule of law. Whether it is a 1,000-year tradition I am not sure. Sometimes that has wavered a bit, and there have been weaknesses here and errors there. However, I think that he is right to point out that there is something that we can be proud of, something that we should sing about and shout about, and something that, certainly in promoting this country and everything that goes with it, we should talk about and be proud about.
The substance of the debate from the noble Lord, Lord Noon, is on integration and extremism and how they will be affected by the Prevent strategy. There is good evidence that, by international standards, the United Kingdom has a relatively well integrated strategy. That is why I wanted to start with what might have seemed flippant remarks about where I lived in Cumbria and the mixed nature of that over the last 1,000 years; that will happen again in the future. We are told that 92 per cent of people across all ethnic groups say that they feel part of British society; 86 per cent feel that people from different backgrounds get on well in their area; 88 per cent say that they get on well with their neighbours; and 97 per cent agree that it is everybody’s responsibility to obey the law. These figures show that we have much to be thankful for and that the Government’s approach to integration is building on solid foundations that, again, we can be proud of in the citizenship of this country.
Of course, those figures do not tell the whole story. There are differences from area to area and within areas. For example, a high proportion of people in country towns are likely to say that they get on well with their neighbours, but in some inner-city boroughs the proportion can fall below half. Again, that obviously needs to be addressed. It is in those areas with a lower level of integration that the greatest challenges have to be faced.
It is also in these less well integrated areas that the advocates of extremism are often most active. Groups like the English Defence League and the recently proscribed Muslims Against Crusades seek to spread fear and mistrust in order to generate and perpetuate division and separation rather than integration. Successful policies to promote integration must also, therefore, be capable of countering extremism, in non-violent as well as violent forms.
My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government plans to make a Statement to Parliament and publish a document setting out the Government’s approach to integration later this year. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, will be able to wait for that Statement. In the mean time, the elements of that approach are beginning to take shape. It will be an approach that emphasises what we have in common rather than what is different; draws out the responsibilities that we have to each other and to society; enables people to realise their potential to get on in life; gives people opportunities to work together and to take decisions for themselves; and ensures a firm response to threats to integration like discrimination, extremism and disorder.
These objectives cannot be achieved by top-down design by the Government. Government can create the conditions which enable integration but it is for people themselves in neighbourhoods and in voluntary and community organisations to take responsibility for making it happen in their areas.
To illustrate what Government are doing to create the conditions that support integration, let me give three examples, which have also been touched on by a number of other noble Lords in this debate. First, without a common language, integration will always be constrained and so we are looking at what additional support we can offer to local areas to help isolated women in particular and other priority groups to learn English. Secondly, understanding and co-operation between people of different faiths is pivotal to integration and that is why the Government awarded £5 million to the Church Urban Fund’s Near Neighbours scheme, which fosters precisely these ends. Thirdly, we have made integration one of the three objectives of the National Citizen Service. In 2012 this will enable up to 30,000 16 year-olds from different backgrounds to meet each other, to break down the misconceptions that put up barriers between them and to get on together.
As I have said, intolerance and extremism are a threat to integration and to initiatives that support it, such as those I have described. Therefore we must challenge extremism in all its forms, both violent and non-violent, and whether manifested through propaganda, public disorder or incitement to hatred and violence.
If extremists break the law they will feel the force of the law, but even if they keep within the law we shall not stand by. Extremists will be challenged if they use public spaces to promote their ideology and if they publish offensive material on the internet members of the public will be able to ask the police to investigate.
Integration and the Prevent strategy are not the same thing. They are linked but distinct. In the past the distinction between them became blurred and that is partly why the Government initiated a review of the Prevent strategy late last year. The review found that the old Prevent strategy was too far-reaching. It confused counter-terrorism with social cohesion and “securitised” social policy. It was in danger of stigmatising Muslims—a point made by various noble Lords—and reinforced a misperception that all Muslims could be extremists. It created division between Muslims and other communities. It was unfocussed and wasteful of resources. It was concerned only with Islamist terrorism and not other forms. It generated allegations of being a cover for spying on communities. It treated some extremists as allies rather than as part of the problem. It was unable to show that it was effective in preventing terrorism.
The new strategy published in June this year deals with these shortcomings by reaffirming Prevent’s place within CONTEST, as part of the United Kingdom’s counter-terrorism strategy. In common with the rest of CONTEST, Prevent now deals with all forms of terrorism and extremism, whether violent or non-violent, that contribute to support for terrorism. This includes extreme right-wing and Northern Ireland-related as well as al-Qaeda-inspired terrorism. At the same time, the Department for Communities and Local Government has taken responsibility for integration and non-terrorist related extremism.
These changes mean that Prevent should no longer be seen as “securitising” integration. Rather than ranging far and wide, as it did previously, it is now more tightly focused, proportionate and prioritised. It is a national programme concentrated on certain localities and sectors, concerned with extremism conducive to terrorism, including non-violent forms as well as terrorism itself, is based on allocation of resources according to risk and will use law enforcement, regulation, civil challenge and support as appropriate.
I will conclude, as my Whip is beginning to kick my legs to indicate that time is running out. Although they are linked, we make it quite clear that integration and prevention of terrorism must not be conflated. With the new Prevent strategy the Government have taken decisive action to ensure that they are not. Prevent is now able to concentrate on what it is supposed to do, to stop people from becoming or supporting terrorists, while the Department for Communities and Local Government is enabled to get on with creating the conditions in which integration can grow and extremism can be challenged and reduced.
Health and Social Care Bill
(13 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
21:57 - Division on Amendment 159 - Ayes: 46 / Noes: 106 - Amendment 159 disagreed.
Baroness Thornton
“( ) Subsection (1) shall not apply to any providers who have any financial interest, directly or indirectly, in the provision of any service that the clinical commissioning group may be required to commission.”
Baroness Thornton
My Lords, I also speak to my other amendments in this group. Over supper my noble friend reminded me that the late lamented Lord Carter, a previous Government Chief Whip, used to say to Ministers and others that if we needed to save time, the thing to do was to speak only from every other page and see if anybody noticed. What I intend to do is to try and speak from every other paragraph.
These issues deal with the serious potential conflicts of interest that GPs will face in their new role as commissioners of health services. When this group of amendments first started out it contained only two amendments but it has now, quite rightly, grown substantially to address the major concerns of transparency, integrity and patient confidence and the issue of trust that must be addressed in their new role. In passing, I would say that the publication of the Government’s recent draft guidance on commissioning, Developing Commissioning Support: Towards Service Excellence, in effect decrees that by 2016 the real work of CCGs will be outsourced, presumably to large private providers, which makes me start to question what is left for CCGs to worry about. However, the issue that these amendments deal with is a fundamental issue of the Bill.
We all have high regard for our GPs and we trust them as experts and advisors. We know from the evidence that they do a cost-effective and good job. Our national system of GPs may be quirky, half in and half out of the NHS, but it works. At its best, it is the very best system in the world.
We are concerned that the Bill endangers the trust that patients have for their GPs and, essentially, these amendments seek to explore and to test that. GPs are going to be decision-makers across the whole breadth of commissioning, making decisions about priorities and standards, things that may often be unpopular, and reconfigurations of service. They will handle huge amounts of money, own budgets and get bonuses for good financial performance. So patients need to be assured that they can continue to trust their GP and that their GP will always act in the patient’s best interest. This concern has been flagged up by the BMA and the Royal College of General Practitioners, so I hope that the Minister can tell the House how we will be able to protect the image and reputation of our GPs after the first CCG goes wrong. Amendment 156 starts with the obvious necessary safeguard that providers of primary medical services who have a direct or indirect financial interest in the provision of services that a CCG is required to provide must not be members of the CCG. Amendment 161 is also key in requiring the Secretary of State to issue guidance which must be incorporated into CCG constitutions on how conflicts of interest must be dealt with by consortia as part of their decision-making. Transparency and clarity about how potential conflicts of interest would be managed is essential if the confidence of the public is to be maintained.
Openness and transparency are supported by Amendment 176A, requiring CCGs to maintain a publicly accessible register of all potential conflicts of interest of individuals involved in any part of their commissioning process. Taken together, Amendments 176A and 224 reinforce this, and call for regulations to stipulate that no provider should be a member of a CCG if they have any financial interest in the provision of any service the CCG is required to commission; in other words, open book accounting.
We do not think it is enough, as Amendment 228 proposes, for a CCG member merely to declare their financial interest in a commissioning decision being taken by their CCG, or absent themselves from decision making on that provider. We expect our councillors to operate under this regime. We should expect other people responsible for public money to do the same. Indeed, this transparency and openness, and the declaration of interests, should be extended to their families, in the same way that it is for other public servants.
Finally, I want to underline that we recognise that extending GP commissioning and setting up CCGs has the potential to give GPs freedom to innovate, improve services and use commissioning to develop new models of care in the interests of the communities they serve. The safeguards against conflicts of interest proposed in these amendments are not designed to shackle CCGs. As I have said, the Department of Health commissioning guidance already does that. The safeguards will ensure that they abide by the reasonable rules, regulations and codes of practice that we would expect of any statutory body responsible for taxpayers’ money worth millions of pounds.
The public needs to be assured that robust governance arrangements are in place for commissioning consortia, and that conflicts of interest will be managed effectively. I beg to move.
Baroness Williams of Crosby
My Lords, I have a great deal of sympathy with the intention behind this amendment. Noble Lords will remember that from the very beginning of the discussion about this Bill, there has been a great deal of concern about the conflict of interest that could so easily arise. Many of us recognise that the relationship between patients and general practitioners crucially depends upon that relationship being one of trust. The same will apply, if the commissioning groups work well, to the relationship between them and the patients who are within the practices of which they are part. So I sympathise very much with what the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, has proposed, and also with what the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, has proposed in Amendment 161.
Our concerns on this side of the House are not with the whole motivation behind this. We believe that that is extremely important and we completely share it. It is our feeling, rather, that the remedies are not adequate to the scale. We feel, for example, that one of the weaknesses of both amendments is the lack of any effective sanctions against those who breach what would be a relationship of trust. At the moment there is not provision within the Bill for effective sanctions, which can be used to ensure that these high-minded and perfectly proper principles are lived by.
The Nolan principles have been very effective in local government—as we all know—and increasingly effective in national Government. There are references to those in the course of the Bill, but there is no specific determination that members of the partnership groups or the CCGs would be dealt with, if they were in breach of the requirement that they should not ever put their own interests ahead of those of their patients.
I suggest to the noble Baronesses, Lady Thornton and Lady Finlay, and her associates in moving these various amendments, that they would look at the amendment we have put down—and I suggest this with due humility—which effectively brings into practice powerful sanctions. We believe these will be effective in ensuring that this relationship of trust is upheld, and also that powerful requirements lie on every CCG, as well as on the board itself, that it would be absolutely clear that all interests must be declared publicly.
These will ensure that once people’s names are on the register, and they have made a declaration of the appropriate kind about their own interest never being put forward as the reason for a decision, there are then effective measures that will enable the whole issue to be dealt with in detail, with appropriate requirements of sanctions and of effective punishment for those who breach them. We believe this to be absolutely central to the working of the clinical commissioning groups and to the whole relationship of doctors to their patients.
So, with those few words, I hope I can persuade the noble Baronesses, Lady Thornton and Lady Finlay, to have a look at the proposals that we have put forward, which, I am pleased to say, have at least to some extent the support of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
My Lords, I certainly support the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, who has just spoken, and they go further than the amendments to which I have added my name. I would just draw the attention of the House to the conflicts of interest guidance from the General Medical Council, which makes it quite clear that doctors,
“must be honest in financial and commercial dealings with employers, insurers or other organisations or individuals”.
It goes on to say:
“If you have a financial or commercial interest in an organisation to which you plan to refer a patient for treatment or investigation, you must tell the patient about your interest”.
I would also remind the House that the ultimate sanction is to be struck off, and that if you are struck off, you lose your livelihood. I have a concern that when it comes to the implementation, warnings may actually be issued rather than stronger sanctions taken against those who might breach such guidance, because this is guidance, and it is therefore subject to interpretation.
This whole group of amendments has really gone to the heart of the problem of conflicts of interest, both for the individual general practitioner, who would be on a clinical commissioning group, but also their families and all those others around. It may be friends of theirs, who they know really well, with whom they are inclined to place some commissioning contract, or enter into some arrangement. There is a really fine line between having a personal interest, and going to that person because professionally you think that they are the best person to do the job.
Of course, I will say as a doctor, we all know the doctors that we would like to be referred to, and we all know the people who we want to work with in our teams. That is human nature. It is a mixture of competence and attitude, but there is also something about having a shared set of values, and so on, because you tend to gravitate towards people who share the same set of values as yourself. The highest principles and values would of course fall, I would hope, outside of the conflicts of interest, but financial interest is a really difficult one.
While I would suggest that none of these amendments are absolutely perfect, this group of amendments illustrates the fact that we need to come back to this at Report with a definitive amendment that really crystallises the whole problem around conflict of interest in commissioning.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, I spoke on an earlier amendment this afternoon about issues that come round and round, and this one comes round across Bills. We had a great deal of quite difficult discussion on these matters in the Localism Bill—now the Localism Act—and achieved what we hoped will be a satisfactory compromise in the Bill.
It is all about standards in public life and the importance of all bodies that deal with public funds and public functions being part of the regime of standards in public life. I assume that clinical commissioning groups, while not part of local government, are certainly part of local governance, or they will be part of local governance as far as the health service is concerned. They will deal with a lot of authorities that have the standards of public life regime as part of their own practice. I wanted to go very quickly through the basic principles that need to be established in my view before this Bill is finished. First of all there have to be clear rules. In The Localism Act they are set out in Part 1, Chapter 7, across 11 pages and in parts of the schedules. There need to be set out on the face of the Bill so that everybody knows where we are.
There needs to be a code of conduct, whatever it is called, which is based on the Nolan principles. We came to the view in the Localism Bill, now the Act, that those principles needed to be set out again on the face of the Act: selflessness, integrity, objectivity, accountability, openness, honesty and leadership. In my view they ought to be set out on the face of this Bill.
There needs to be a system which members of commissioning groups have to register appropriate interests and again in the Localism Act some of these were pecuniary interests, going back to the old wording which is now on the face of the new Act. There are interests other than pecuniary interests which also need to be registered even if they do not debar people from taking part in decisions. If we are going to be open about what interests people have, then they ought to be there on record. There needs to be a register of interests—there is no point in registering if there is not an open public register. Then there needs to be a system in which people taking decisions and taking part in decision-making meetings have to declare interests at the point of that decision, as in the system that we have in your Lordships’ House. As the noble Baroness said, it needs to involve close families and partners as well as the individuals concerned.
Then there is no point in having that unless you have a system of dealing with complaints. It needs to be very clear what the system is, how such complaints are investigated and what penalties there are for breaching the rules. There may be different penalties for different rules. Clearly breaching the system in relation to financial pecuniary interests is much more serious than breaching one for non-pecuniary interests.
The penalties need to be clear and understood and the system for judging on them needs to be clear. The whole system has to be in the public domain. The system itself has to be open and transparent and all the actions taken under the system, whether it is just registering an interest or dealing with a complaint and the results of that complaint, have to be open, transparent and in the public domain. It seems to me that those are the principles. The details will quite rightly differ according to different organisations and different contexts. I am not suggesting the details of the local government scheme, although the amendment of my noble friend Lady Williams picks up some of the wording from the Localism Act, I think. Clearly CCGs are different from local authorities, but they are not sufficiently different that the basic principles should not apply, or the basic rules and regulations about avoiding conflicts of interest and declaring those interests when they exist and enforcing those interests within the framework of a broad code of conduct. That in my view has to apply and I hope that when the Bill leaves this House, it will incorporate sufficient detail to give those assurances.
Lord Warner
My Lords, I just wanted to make a couple of observations and ask the Minister a question on this group of amendments. First, this is a not a new area that we are getting into. The same issues arose with GP fundholding and with practice-based commissioning. We have managed, as I recall, to sail through those two areas where we have involved GPs in the commissioning of services where there was potential for conflicts of interest without any great scandals. Has the department looked at the experience on this issue of conflicts of interest with practice-based commissioning and GP fundholding and seen whether there was a major issue? My recollection of all this from the research on GP fundholding was that there was not an issue and it was handled perfectly sensibly.
Secondly, if we actually have bigger clinical commissioning groups—and I promise the Minister I am not going to reopen the debate we have already had, no doubt to much relief in your Lordships’ House—the smaller the risk, I would suggest, of conflicts of interest. There is a different set of considerations if you have got a clinical commissioning group for a population of 18,000, where inevitably there is going to be much greater potential for a conflict of interest, to one in which you are commissioning for 400,000. There is a different order of magnitude and I wonder whether that is an issue that the Government have looked at.
Thirdly, if there is concern about sanctions, the thing which really counts with doctors is the prospect of being reported to their professional bodies. It is the GMC and professional misconduct which is the big issue. We should not invent a system which is based too much on local government. It should be bedded into the professional body and the misconduct issues, because that is likely to be the way that it will have most effect with doctors involved in commissioning.
Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames
My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 175E, 176AA to AD, 213C and 220A, all in the names of my noble friend Lady Williams, the noble Lord, Lord Patel and myself, and in the case of 220A in the additional name of my noble friend Lord Clement-Jones. The purposes of these amendments are first to secure on the face of the Bill a thoroughly robust regime to avoid conflicts of interest sullying the commissioning process, and secondly to ensure transparency in the commissioning process to the greatest extent that is commercially possible. Taking the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Warner, a moment ago, that this is not an entirely new area, I suggest that the arrangements for commissioning proposed in this Bill risk raising the threat level from conflicts of interest in the commissioning process from “moderate” to “severe”, if I may use the intelligence services’ scale. That is because of the greater involvement of practitioners in the commissioning process, which is of course to be welcomed for many reasons, and the increased likelihood that many practitioners may also be providers of other healthcare services or have interests in such providers.
Our task is to reduce the threat at least to “substantial”, and then to manage the threat in such a way as to avoid commissioning decisions ever being skewed by the private interests of those making the decisions. Much of what we propose ought to be uncontroversial, and merely represents good practice, but we suggest, and in this I agree with my noble friend Lord Greaves, that it is important that our commitment to best practice is made clear on the face of the Bill. Amendment 220A would impose on any provider of medical services who is also a member of a CCG a duty to declare any financial interest in a commissioning decision—a bare minimum proposal, I suggest. Amendment 213C would impose on the NHS Commissioning Board a duty to refer a member of a CCG to his or her relevant professional body for material breach of the provisions or of the guidelines we propose. I entirely agree with the further point made by the noble Lord, Lord Warner, that this is an appropriate way of dealing with offending by practitioners. It should not be for the board to act as, or to set up, a disciplinary tribunal, but it is sensible and a greater deterrent, I suggest, for the professional bodies to do so.
However, the meat of our proposals is in Amendments 176AA to 176AD. We propose a thoroughly transparent regime as the best and most effective way of protecting commissioning from the insidious effects of conflicts of interest. I say insidious—and this is a point in which I pick up on what was said by the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay—because it is not only when a public decision-maker acts deliberately to favour his private personal interests that conflicts arise and threaten the system. It is also when the decision-maker at least persuades himself that his interests and the public’s interests coincide. It is only public scrutiny of the process that can properly test that.
The provisions in the Bill permitting some public access to the meetings of governing bodies of commissioning groups are, I suggest, over-cautious and too limited. The system should be made more open. The public should not be excluded from governing body meetings during the all-important discussions involving a choice between potential providers. I entirely accept that that would involve a new openness about commercial transactions and decision-making. However, these decisions are about choices between providers at public expense; I question the need for meetings to be held behind closed doors in relation to them.
Secondly, in the case of other decisions where the public are excluded from governing body meetings in the public interest, then a record of decisions made should at least be published, and quickly. That is the subject of Amendment 176A.
Our amendments set out a code for dealing with conflicts of interest in new paragraphs to go into the schedule. There would be a requirement for a register of interests of all CCG members. That register should be kept up to date. It should be kept available for public inspection. Then there would be a provision to exclude from the governing body of any CCG a director of a healthcare organisation or anyone with a significant financial interest in such an organisation if there is a contract in existence between that CCG and that organisation.
Thirdly, there would be a provision to ensure that a member of such a governing body who would be excluded if such a contract came into existence would have to stand down from the governing body while any negotiations for such a contract were in progress.
Finally, our amendments import the admirable guidelines produced by the General Medical Council, entitled Good Medical Practice. Those are the guidelines to which the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, referred. I am grateful to the GMC for producing a document of such clarity and for welcoming our use of it in these amendments. The emphasis of the guidelines is on honesty and openness; that is what we are trying to achieve in this Bill. I believe it is what the Government are trying to achieve in this Bill. These are probing amendments, intended to give the Government an opportunity to consider how they might import such guidelines into the Bill at Report stage. However, our central point is this: we believe that the present provisions of the Bill do not display the seriousness, the clarity or the robustness that are required to meet the risks posed by the new arrangements. I suggest that the Bill cries out for a code in this area such as the one we have proposed.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
My Lords, there is an additional area which I think means that the provisions in this Bill have to be different from other previous legislation. We face a huge financial challenge across the whole of healthcare, with budgets squeezed in a way they have not been squeezed before. So the potential for conflict of interest will go up as very difficult decisions are made. One can envisage the situation where somebody on the governing body of a clinical commissioning group will have a relative with a certain condition—and I refer back to the example I used previously, motor neurone disease. Say that person needs end-of-life care, and say that is a clinical commissioning group that has decided that it is not commissioning it in its area. There would be a direct personal conflict of interest, because that person would obviously want that care for their relative, but they would need to stand back. With the financial stringencies, the proposed amendments become even more important. While they are probing amendments, I hope the Minister in responding will recognise the importance of this area and agree to come back to it—hopefully, with a Government amendment—at a later stage.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, in brief response to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, I am not suggesting in any way that the regime should be identical to the local government regime, but that the decision-making body in clinical commissioning groups will be the board. Under the new Section 14A, the board will include lay members and possibly other people. So merely relying upon professional standards and professional systems of discipline will not be sufficient.
Baroness Masham of Ilton
My Lords, I spoke on Second Reading of the need for safeguards. These are important amendments. They are safeguards which are necessary. Many people are worried about the conflict of interest.
Earl Howe
My Lords, I know full well that noble Lords have some concerns about the potential for conflict of interest in a system of clinical commissioning groups. Those are natural concerns, but I hope to show that the approach that we are advocating has some very specific and robust safeguards within it, which meet the intentions of the amendments in this group.
The CCG constitution provides for dealing with conflicts of interest and specifies arrangements for securing transparency about the decisions of the CCG and its governing body. The governing body must in turn ensure that the group has arrangements in place to ensure adherence to relevant principles of good governance. The CCG’s governing body will have responsibility for ensuring that the CCG adheres to relevant principles of good governance. The Secretary of State can also make regulations for CCGs under Clause 71 of the Bill, which are designed to ensure that in commissioning, CCGs adhere to good procurement practice. These regulations may impose requirements relating to,
“the management of conflicts between the interests involved in commissioning services and the interests involved in providing them”.
These regulations can also confer on Monitor powers to investigate suspected non-compliance. These are the safeguards that the Bill puts in place. My view is that it is unnecessary and indeed undesirable to go further.
Requiring CCGs to adhere to examples of good practice in managing conflicts of interest, such as declarations of interest; or maintaining a register of interests; or the monitoring or registration of hospitality received by members is a temptation, but one that should be resisted. We have got to be very careful about encumbering the Bill and CCGs with inflexible prescriptions as to how CCGs should operate within the statutory framework, or procedure about how they specifically manage potential conflicts of interest. This does not mean that these are not reasonable safeguards. Requiring the governing body to discuss in public choices between potential providers, or publish any decisions made in camera, for example, would remove a necessary discretion around ensuring that sensitive issues, either relating to contract values or performance, or staff matters, were given the appropriate level of confidentiality. I would urge in particular that we do not—as proposed in Amendment 175CC—put restrictions on those from whom a CCG can commission services. Given the importance we attach to ensuring that services are delivered in an integrated way, we cannot afford to cut CCGs off from being able to commission services from local GPs with a special interest, for example, who could deliver secondary care services in a community-based setting.
Baroness Thornton
Will the noble Earl acknowledge that there is a conflict of interest there? There must be a potential conflict of interest there. How does the Bill mitigate that? How does the Bill deal with that? I cannot see from what the noble Earl has said so far that that is going to happen.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff
Before the Minister responds, I wonder if he could also explain why clinical commissioning groups would not necessarily have to have a register of hospitality, conflicts of interest and so on? Those of us who work for NHS trusts certainly have to complete a register, and if we receive hospitality above a minimum amount or major gifts, not only do we have to declare them, but we actually have to decline them. I think we would be subject to severe discipline if we breached that code.
Earl Howe
I do not disagree with any of these principles, but I am not sure whether the noble Baroness understood what I said earlier: there have to be arrangements for securing transparency about the decisions of CCGs, and governing bodies have to ensure that CCGs adhere to relevant principles of good governance—think of the Nolan principles, for example, and many other ways in which good governance can take place—but there is no need to specify all this in the way these amendments suggest because the arrangements provided for in the Bill will cover these things. As the noble Lord, Lord Warner, said we are not in new territory here. There are very well established procedures for tackling conflicts of interest when they arise. There might very well be a conflict of interest in the kind of situation to which the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, has alluded, but there are ways of addressing and coping with that.
The key to this is to have in place a rigorous framework of requirements, approved by the board as part of the CCG establishment process, to ensure absolute transparency and to manage conflicts of interest, subject to oversight—the oversight must be proportionate, but it has to be there. We can put on the face of the Bill, as Amendment 176AD would have us do, a detailed list of behaviours that we would expect members of CCGs to observe. Obviously I cannot disagree, as I say, with the stipulations on this list, but they are already provided for in the Nolan principles and indeed the GMC code Good Medical Practice, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, referred—and adherence to that is a condition of registration for medical professionals. The noble Lord, Lord Warner, was absolutely right: this code is what GPs and doctors in general fear to transgress. Of course, if one looks at that set of behavioural requirements, they are actually only an ideal and they have no specific system in place to ensure that they are met. The sanction on doctors is the threat that they will be referred to their regulator.
The NHS Confederation was very clear about this, and I have to say I agree with it. The Bill has to allow flexibility for the way that conflicts of interest are handled and developed over time, rather than being rigidly set in law. What the NHS Confederation told us was that conflicts of interest need to be managed effectively otherwise,
“confidence in the probity of commissioning decisions and the integrity of the clinicians involved could be seriously undermined. However, with good planning and governance, CCGs should be able to avoid these risks”.
I agree with that. There is a balance to be reached, and we believe the system that the Bill would introduce for managing conflicts of interest—the key points of which I hope I have described—provides that.
Baroness Thornton
My Lords, I thank the Minister. He will know, as will all those who have been Ministers, that when we are first appointed, we are told—the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, will remember this—that not only must we declare all our interests and have probity about the way we conduct ourselves, but we have to be seen to be doing it. A lot of these amendments are about being seen to do the right thing, and in terms of the relationship between GPs and their patients that becomes even more important. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, and the noble Lord, Lord Marks, about their amendments and the need to have proper safeguards and remedies on this.
I think that if we co-operate, the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, and I can probably crystallise these into something on the face of the Bill. I was disappointed that the noble Earl feels that this is satisfactory in the Bill at the moment, because I think the noise outside this Chamber and the comments from GPs tell us that people are very concerned about it. We need to address that in the Bill. I am happy to withdraw this amendment, but we may need to return to this at a later stage.
Lord Warner
Lord Warner
In moving Amendment 159 I shall also speak to Amendments 160 and 164 in my name. I start by emphasising that this is a package of amendments that relates to many concerns that have been expressed to me and others—namely, that we need to make very sure that we ensure the assessment of competence of CCGs is sound and open before they undertake the commissioning of services that this Bill will enable them to do.
My earlier Amendment 157 enabled us to debate the number and population size of clinical commissioning groups, both of which considerations have a considerable bearing on the issue of competence of CCGs. I will not rehearse those arguments again except to emphasise that if the Government go ahead with such a large number of clinical commissioning groups, as it seems may well happen, then it is even more necessary to tighten up the Bill’s provisions on proof of competence and the ability of the National Commissioning Board to reject applications where competence is in doubt. It is for those applicants to take on the role of a clinical commissioning group to prove that they are competent to take on this task and to safeguard the public money that will be entrusted to them.
Amendment 159 makes it clear that in submitting an application to the board, the clinical commissioning group applicant must demonstrate that it can meet the requirements of commissioning competence specified by the board. If its application does not do so then the board should be able to reject it out of hand. The onus is on that group to show that it is competent to undertake the commissioning. It seems to me that clinical commissioning groups will have had plenty of time to assemble their case and to prepare for their application. The Bill should make it absolutely clear that a demonstration of competence should be mandatory in submitting an application. If I can put it crudely, we do not want to see people taking a punt. They have to be able to demonstrate that they can actually do the job, otherwise public money and safety will be put at risk.
Amendment 160 is linked to Amendment 159. It requires that when the board publishes information for applicants, that information document must specify the competencies required to commission health services. This problem of specifying competencies in commissioning has bedevilled the whole movement towards commissioning over several decades. Mark Britnell’s attempts at world-class commissioning ran into the same problem—we were not sufficiently clear about what competencies would deliver good quality health services from commissioners. So this competency issue is at the heart of making clinical commissioning groups work. It is vital that the board is left in no doubt of its responsibility for doing this and that applicants are in no doubt that the competency hurdle that they have to clear is put very clearly to them before their application can be accepted. What we do not want to see, if I may put it this way, is a load of well meaning waffle coming out of the board about commissioning. We want to have articulated the competencies that have to be met before applicants can be successful. Amendment 164 rounds the whole process off in terms of applicants showing that they can discharge clinical commissioning group functions “competently”, which is the word which it adds to the Bill.
These amendments make it clear that Parliament regards competence in commissioning as the yardstick by which the success or failure of applications to become clinical commissioning groups will be judged. This issue should be uppermost in the mind of the board when it makes decisions, and wording that makes this clear should be on the face of the Bill. Competence in commissioning has been missing in the past and we are in danger of repeating the mistakes of the past by not making it absolutely clear in this Bill what is required of the applicants to be clinical commissioning groups. I beg to move.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, I have a number of amendments in this group. I will start with Amendment 159A which questions why, on page 9, line 36, it is possible for non-providers of primary medical services to be eligible to apply to establish a clinical commissioning group. Particularly in the light of my noble friend’s comments on Amendment 159, one would surely only want applicants who had experience of providing GP services to be able to apply to form a clinical commissioning group.
Amendment 160A requires the board, before considering an application to form a clinical commissioning group, to consult with the general public, the relevant local authority, the relevant health and wellbeing board, and patients receiving primary medical services from providers within the clinical commissioning group. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, raised some pertinent questions about transparency in the formation of clinical commissioning groups. It is extraordinary that there seems to be no process by which putative CCGs consult with their patients before they make an application. The decision is, essentially, being made by bureaucrats within the National Health Service system—who put constraints on CCGs,—and the GPs themselves. Where on earth are the public in all of this?
Lord Greaves
The noble Lord very kindly referred to what I said. Is it not also the case that a group of GPs could go ahead and put forward proposals without even consulting all the GPs in their area?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
From reading the Bill, it is only when two or more are gathered together that they can make such an application. So the noble Lord is quite right. The amendment is seeking assurance that there will be public consultation and consultation with patients. We are told this is all about patients. Can patients therefore be consulted before GPs commit themselves to forming a clinical commissioning group? Or are we just to be told at some stage, “That’s it, you are in that clinical commissioning group because you are in that practice and you have no choice”. It is remarkably high-handed for it all to be done with no public involvement whatever. It is remarkable how many changes are already being made without any statutory authority given by this legislation.
I want to continue the theme of consultation, because I have a number of amendments in this group which come back to the same point: Amendment 164A in relation to the board’s determination of applications; Amendment 166 in relation to variations in the constitution of clinical commissioning groups; Amendment 166B in respect of variations made in the area covered by a clinical commissioning group, as specified in the constitution; Amendment 167A in respect of mergers, and Amendment 167B as regards the dissolution of clinical commissioning groups.
If I as a patient am part of the clinical commissioning group, one would have thought that I would have a role in deciding whether it is appropriate for that clinical commissioning group to be dissolved, or is that again just for the GPs to decide? What about Amendment 216ZZA as regards commissioning plans? Perhaps I have misread the Bill and there are crucial points which would envisage members of the public and patients within a CCG area being consulted on all these matters.
Baroness Williams of Crosby
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, particularly on Amendment 160A. The idea that patients whose GPs are serving on the Commissioning Board, or are part of a commissioning group which represents that board, should be consulted and we should hear what their own experiences have been, is innovative and interesting. He should be congratulated on putting it forward. It means involving patients as individuals in their own assessment of the service that they have had. Time and again the Bill reflects the demand that that should happen—no decision without me, and so on. This actually makes that real. It gives the words flesh, and I congratulate him on that. It is quite an exciting idea and I hope that it is one that will commend itself to the Government, given the Government’s wish to involve patients.
I am not so happy about Amendment 163B. I fear that the opposition Front Bench has not taken on board as much as I hoped that it might the idea that regulations should not go straight to Parliament, even if they are affirmative, but should go by way of the Health Select Committee. The noble Lord will be familiar with the argument—that the Health Select Committee has a huge range of expertise and knowledge. As a former Minister he will know—as well as I or the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, knows—that the regime of regulatory scrutiny is not very effective. If there is an individual Member of Parliament in another place who knows a great deal about it and is concerned about it, you can have a real debate and that real debate can affect the outcome with regard to regulation. However, nine times out of 10, there is no great debate. In the case of the negative resolution procedure, there is often no debate at all.
I fear that this is a very weak safeguard for the huge amount of regulation that is built into the Bill. I therefore hope that I might commend to the House, and not least to the opposition Front Bench, the idea of looking again at the proposal, which is also radical and new. It is an idea that really ought to commend itself to those of us who believe strongly in accountability to Parliament and in the need to strengthen Parliament’s power vis-à-vis the Executive across the whole world.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
My Lords, perhaps I can come back to that. On Amendment 160A, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her support. I am not even sure that I got it right. I am also trying to get at the fact that so much is happening now without any consultation. The CCGs are essentially being decided by the system and then at some stage there will be a formal application process. I am long enough in the tooth in the health service to know about NHS consultation. Frankly, we all know that the traditional NHS consultations make the decision and then consult. I fear that, with CCGs, this is what is happening. While I welcome the support for the involvement of the public in a formal application, I find it perplexing that so much is now being decided and that the public are not involved at all.
I listened to the noble Earl before supper talking about this being bottom up. That is not what is happening. I do not think that he understands quite how much this is being driven by the centre. It is quite extraordinary. You can call it guidance, but putative CCGs are being given such clear steers about what will be acceptable. I feel that we will reach a situation where, at some point, it will all be a done deal and the consultation will simply not be realistic.
On the noble Baroness’s comments about making the regulations affirmative, I accept that, even if they are affirmative, there is a limit to what parliamentary scrutiny can provide—although that does provide some safeguards. I would be interested in debating the idea of giving the Health Select Committee a role, although excluding your Lordships’ House from it would be a problem. I say to the noble Baroness that I think it a pity that the House did not adopt my suggestion about a mandate for a kind of national policy statement approach. There is an argument for having a more interactive debate, if you like, about some of these matters. I very much take to heart her constructive comments on this and the Select Committee role. It could be a very useful debate for the future.
Lord Alderdice
My Lords, lest it be thought that we were all wholly of one mind on these Benches in regard to some of these proposals, let me say that I am much more cautious about the propositions. My noble friend Lady Williams of Crosby has described the propositions for consultation with patients as novel. She is quite right. When the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, says that he recognises NHS consultations from the past as decisions first and consultation afterwards, he recognises how the previous Government carried out their business. As somebody who was in the health service at the time, I was very familiar with it.
We must be realistic about some of the propositions that come forward for consultation. Think through what is actually involved in doctors coming forward with proposals to fulfil the requirements set down in legislation in all its various aspects passed by Parliament, and then being asked to consult with the patients as to what exactly they think. Think through what exactly that might look like for general practitioners and their patients—those patients who would choose to back the general practitioner in his application to go along with the proposals, or would start to run a campaign against their GP. Is there really a thought that this will be something that serves the interests of helping general practitioners and their patients to move forward together? It is an interesting and novel proposal from the point of view of debate in your Lordships’ House. However, I am not at all convinced that it has been thought through in terms of how one might actually implement such a thing, and in terms of working with patients and patients working with their general practitioners.
In psychiatry, for example, I think of how much discussion and consultation there has been with patients about who their sector psychiatrist might be, never mind all sorts of other important decisions about them. The fact is that it is not a way in which one can possibly run these things. It is important to have consultation with the public in general, but to try to divide it up so that patients are consulted on whether their GP should follow decisions taken in line with decisions that Parliament set down is wholly another matter. My noble friend was right to describe it as “novel”, but I am much more cautious about the proposal than she is.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
I thought that what the noble Lord said about the last Government was a cheap shot. I was talking about the NHS consultation in my experience over 40 years. It has not been a wholly satisfactory situation. It is quite remarkable what the noble Lord seems to be saying. The health service has strong corporate governance and strong processes for consultation, but suddenly we are bunging £80 million to GPs and they do not have to consult. Are they in such a mystical position that they do not need strong corporate governance; that we can trust them, even though some of that money will be spent with the GPs instead of on other parts of the health service? Suddenly we think that they are jolly good chaps and we can trust them. We can trust them simply to form these clinical commissioning groups, in which in theory they will have great power, and there is no consultation whatever. It is quite remarkable what the noble Lord is saying.
Lord Alderdice
My Lords, let us be clear. It was no cheap shot. It was a comment on how the previous Government carried through their policies. He will know very well that I sat on those Benches and asked the questions of him. I am very much aware of it. What I said had nothing to do with corporate governance. It was the specific proposal that GPs’ patients should be asked to express a view on the proposition that their general practitioner be part of a clinical commissioning group. As though there was some serious alternative to it, and that it was something that could be carried through willy-nilly without any potential disadvantage in the GPs’ conduct of the practice.
What I pointed out was that this is not something that has any kind of precedent; it was, as my noble friend said, “novel”. What I said about it was quite clear. It has not been tried and I am not persuaded that it is something that has been well thought through. It could be very divisive within a practice. That is not at all to say that other elements of corporate governance are not appropriate. I wholly support them and the proposal. I was addressing a specific issue and I notice that it was the one issue that the noble Lord did not respond to.
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath
So I as a patient have no right to say or comment on which clinical commissioning group my GP wants to join? It is nothing to do with me and just up to the GPs to decide? That is what he said. On the question of general consultation, let me remind him of the NHS plan. If this Government had done this properly, they would have published a Green Paper. They would have gone through a process of working with the health service, they might have spent six to nine months doing it and they would have got much greater buy-in. It shows that they have dealt with these reforms in a high-handed manner. The result is that there is no buy-in whatever and that is why the Government are in the trouble they are. I pray in aid the way that the NHS plan was dealt with and the fact that 500 people came together on a number of bases to work on the plan. That is why it had so much greater ownership.
Lord Alderdice
My Lords, I addressed one specific proposal, not the whole world and the whole conduct of the Bill. I addressed one specific proposal, and the noble Lord comes back and tells me, “Has a patient no right to express a view?”. Of course the patient has a right to express a view. There will be public consultation. That is not the issue. The issue is that the noble Lord produced a specific proposal. One of my colleagues found it novel and interesting. I find it novel, but I am not at all persuaded that it has been well thought through, and I am interested that the noble Lord jumped so immediately to defend not the proposal but his posture.
Lord Patel
My Lords, I thought that I might get up to say one sentence to stop this conversation from going further. My name is on several amendments, particularly those proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Warner, about competency. I have a simple question, which I am sure the Minister will be able to answer easily. What competencies do the commissioners have to demonstrate before they are authorised to become commissioners? I know that there will be guidance, but what competencies will be looked at that demonstrate that they can be commissioners? I am being very brief today because of being chastised for talking too long; but now I have evidence that suggests that I was not the worst, so I will carry on another time.
Lord Greaves
My Lords, I want to say one or two things about the consultation and go back to what I was saying before dinner. The question of patients is a bit of a red herring. To that extent, I think that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, was asking to be tripped up over it. Everybody is a patient to some extent, but the important thing is that the residents of an area, or citizens—whatever they are called nowadays—should know what is going on and that there should be an opportunity for a public debate to take place in the normal places—local newspapers, local radio, public meetings—about the future, structure and organisation of the health services in their area.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, was absolutely right when he said that there is a huge amount going on at the moment. It is not going on in complete secrecy; people involved in it know what is happening and are telling other people, and people in local authorities and others are having some discussions. However, by and large, there is not a proper process for providing people with open and full—or even partial—information about the proposals that are taking place. I do not think that it is a question of patients being able to tell their doctors which CCG they want to be part of, because the CCGs will be area-based, as we all know, and the doctors will be part of the CCG in their area. The questions are: what area is that going to cover, where is the CCG going to be, and how is it going to fit in to the health service? That is a fundamental question. So to that extent the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is absolutely right. I think that the question of patients is a red herring.
Whenever I go to see my doctor, I consult him about what is happening in the health service, he consults me about that and all sorts of other things, and occasionally we get around to talking about my health; but I do not suppose that I am a very typical patient. That is a fact of life. However, it is a fundamental problem, and the source of a huge amount of the mistrust about what is going on at the moment is that people simply cannot find out what is going on. That is not in the amendments to this Bill. The Minister and his colleagues simply need to tell the health service to be a lot more open and transparent about what is going on and allow local debate on it.
Earl Howe
My Lords, these amendments are all concerned with the process of the establishment of CCGs or changes to the established organisation. The Bill lays the groundwork for the NHS Commissioning Board to establish CCGs. Ensuring the competence of an applicant group to exercise the functions of a CCG is a key part of that process.
In the first instance, the board may publish guidance on the making of applications and this may include details of how it will assess the fitness of CCGs for establishment and therefore their suitability to assume responsibility for exercising their commissioning functions. That is really what Amendment 159 is trying to get at. The whole process is intended to ensure that the CCG has made appropriate arrangements to discharge its functions competently. If the board is not satisfied about that, it will not grant the CCG’s application, or else it will grant it subject to conditions under the transitional arrangements.
I can confirm that we intend to make provision in regulations to require the NHS Commissioning Board to take the views of the shadow health and well-being board into account when they consider the establishment of a CCG. Health and well-being boards will be able to provide insight into the willingness and ability of a prospective CCG to be involved in partnership working and engaging with the local population. That is the theme of Amendments 160A and 162.
However, in my view, wider mandatory consultation with the public, either by a prospective CCG or by the board on receipt of an application to be established, would be completely disproportionate and add unwarranted delay to the establishment of new arrangements. We already have intelligence that early implementer health and well-being boards are engaging in constructive dialogue with CCG pathfinders about the right size, area and configuration to best meet local patient needs. That is fine, but problems arise when you start to mandate it. I am very uncomfortable about that. Consultation with the public has its rightful place but I was completely unconvinced by the argument of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. For my money he simply has not made the case.
We also need to ensure that we do not have a cumbersome process for agreeing changes to CCGs, which may evolve over time as organisations and may choose to merge formally or to adapt their constitutions, which of course would need to be agreed with the board. A number of amendments in this group seek to require consultation, with the public, the relevant local authority, the relevant health and well-being board and patients receiving primary medical services from providers within the CCG, for different processes: establishment, variation, merger or dissolution of CCGs. The Bill as it stands would set clear duties for patient and public engagement in new Section 14Z. CCGs would have to engage the public in their planning of the commissioning arrangements; in the development and consideration of commissioning proposals, which would have an impact on the manner in which the services are delivered to the individuals; and in the range of health services available. They would also have to engage on decisions of the CCG affecting the operation of the commissioning arrangements where implementation of the arrangements would impact on individuals or the range of services available. The CCG would also have to consult the patients it is responsible for on its commissioning plan. That is quite right and proper and I hope that, in that area at least, there will be some agreement across the House.
As regards local authorities and health and well-being boards, these boards will include representation from the local authority and CCGs. I suggest that is the ideal forum for CCGs to discuss proposals such as mergers with their fellow members. However, it would not be appropriate to impose an explicit requirement for CCGs to consult the board on such matters.
Turning to Amendments 164B, 166A, 166C and 167C, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, I commend the report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee of your Lordships’ House. These amendments would make the resolution procedure for certain regulation-making powers relating to applications between CCGs and the board affirmative. This approach was rejected by the DPRRC, which found that the negative resolution procedure would give noble Lords ample opportunity to consider regulations laid before the House covering determination of applications for establishment of a CCG, for variation of CCG constitutions and on dissolution of CCGs.
The noble Lord, Lord Patel, asked me about competencies. In September the department published Developing Clinical Commissioning Groups: Towards Authorisation, which sets out our current thinking on the domains that the Commissioning Board may wish to use as indicators to judge the competencies of prospective CCG commissions.
While I know that there will not be a meeting of minds over this, I hope that I have at least fleshed out what the Government’s intentions are. There will, obviously, be opportunity for further reflection on these matters.
Lord Warner
My Lords, I was not convinced by the noble Earl’s views on the number of clinical commissioning groups in our earlier debate. I was even less convinced by what he had to say about competencies. There was a lot of talk about, “The board may wish to do this”, and, “The board may wish to do that”, on competencies. The problem of healthcare commissioning in this country has actually been the lack of competency. That has been the problem for 10 to 20 years, under successive Governments. If we miss the boat again on this issue, we are making a great blunder.
I do not want to go over the ground about consultation with the public at all. I am interested in having in the Bill that the critical requirement of becoming a clinical commissioning group is competency to do the job, and that the board is required to specify what those competencies are, before people make an application. My noble friend Lord Hunt has made the perfectly sensible observation that while we are sitting, chatting about this Bill, people out there are doing the business about who will be clinical commissioning groups. That is what is actually happening. We need to make sure that they are under no illusions that competency is the yardstick by which they will be judged. I am not satisfied with the Government’s response and wish to test the opinion of the House.