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Oral Answers to Questions
(4 years, 8 months ago)
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Seema Malhotra (Feltham and Heston) (Lab/Co-op)
The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Alok Sharma)
Supporting low-carbon industries is central to my Department’s mission to deliver our net zero target. We are backing our ambition with action. Since 2012, coal use on the grid has fallen from 40% to less than 3% in 2019, and renewable electricity generation has quadrupled since 2010, with low-carbon electricity providing more than 50% of our total energy needs.
Seema Malhotra
In 2018, investment in acquisitions in the UK’s solar dropped to just £0.3 billion, from £1.6 billion in 2015. Should the Government not be doing more to support renewable power, in the light of the net zero target—which the Secretary of State mentioned—and the closure of the feed-in tariff, especially given that German, Italian and Spanish companies are now investing over six times more than UK companies in low-carbon technologies?
Alok Sharma
I am delighted that the hon. Lady has raised the issue of solar power, because, as she will know, solar photovoltaics is a UK success story. There has been rapid deployment over the past eight years, and more than 99% of the UK’s solar PV capacity has been deployed since May 2010. The latest figures indicate that we now have more than 1 million solar installations, or 13.4 GW, of capacity installed.
Cherilyn Mackrory (Truro and Falmouth) (Con)
In Cornwall we have some exciting new emerging industries such as geothermal energy and lithium extraction. How is my right hon. Friend encouraging those industries to produce green energy in the future?
Alok Sharma
We are putting significant funds behind the renewables sector, and, as my hon. Friend will know, we are committed to increasing our research and development spending to 2.4% of GDP by 2027. I want the UK to be a science and R&D superpower, and that is what we are engaged in.
Matt Western (Warwick and Leamington) (Lab)
Why are the Government so opposed to onshore wind energy generation?
Alok Sharma
The hon. Gentleman may have missed yesterday’s announcement about the fourth contracts for difference allocation round, but if he reads that announcement, he will see the points that we have made. The proposals that we have presented are there to help the UK achieve its 2015 net zero ambition.
Jacob Young (Redcar) (Con)
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his support for the onshore wind sector. What support are the Government providing to advance the hydrogen economy, and to decarbonise the hard to abate sectors?
Alok Sharma
My hon. Friend makes an important point. Hydrogen can, of course, play a key role in net zero efforts, alongside electricity. My Department is investing in innovation, with up to £121 million supporting a range of projects to explore and develop the potential of low-carbon hydrogen.
Mr Pat McFadden (Wolverhampton South East) (Lab)
One of the UK’s great industrial success stories in recent decades has been the automotive industry. What discussions does the Secretary of State plan to have with the industry to help ensure that the UK is best placed to make the transition from internal combustion engines to electric vehicles?
Alok Sharma
Within days of taking office I spoke to our major automotive manufacturers, and I have had meetings with a number of them. However, the right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. We want to encourage electric vehicles, and we are also committed to securing investment for a UK gigafactory. Last year we announced up to £1 billion of new money to support R&D and supply chains for electric vehicles.
Julian Sturdy (York Outer) (Con)
Bim Afolami (Hitchin and Harpenden) (Con)
Mrs Flick Drummond (Meon Valley) (Con)
The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Alok Sharma)
The Government are already increasing public spending on research and development by £7 billion over five years, the biggest increase in public funding for R&D on record. Every pound of public expenditure on R&D leverages a further £1.40 of additional private investment, generating even greater returns for the UK.
Julian Sturdy
Given that nearly 50% of the core science budget currently goes to just three cities in southern England, can the Secretary of State assure me that the increase in R&D funding will do more to favour the regions outside the south, so that in future both my city of York and other regional hubs across Yorkshire, such as Leeds and Hull, will receive their fair share for the purposes of research and innovation?
Alok Sharma
I know that my hon. Friend is hugely supportive of R&D, and that last month he opened the Institute of Technology at York College. I absolutely agree that that is part of our levelling-up agenda. We want to support centres of excellence across the country. In December last year UK Research and Innovation awarded £24 million to the University of York for a quantum communications hub, and we will set out our ambitious play strategy for R&D in the second half of this year.
Bim Afolami
Rothamsted Research in my constituency is a world-leading agricultural research centre, and we have made huge strides in commercialising that scientific knowledge, working with agritech start-ups. I am working with Rothamsted to build a new venture capital fund for agritech, working with those start-ups to incubate and develop them so that we can improve this facility, not just for Rothamsted and the region but for the whole country. Will the Secretary of State provide Government support for this work and come to see the work that we are doing at Rothamsted?
Alok Sharma
I am delighted that my hon. Friend is showing his characteristic commitment to innovation by supporting an agritech venture capital fund. As he notes, Rothamsted has a world-renowned reputation for agricultural research, and that is why UKRI has awarded £3.4 million to determine protein abundance in plants at that research institute. Either I or the Science Minister—the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, my hon. Friend the Member for Derby North (Amanda Solloway)—would be happy to meet him to discuss how the Government can support his proposals.
Mrs Drummond
I also welcome the emphasis that the Government are placing on research and development. Will my right hon. Friend tell me what further action is being taken on the proposal for a UK advanced research projects agency, following the departmental meeting last year?
Alok Sharma
My hon. Friend raises an important point. The UK is ranked fifth in the global innovation index, and our strengths in R&D mean that we are well placed to develop a new funding body to specialise in high-risk, high-reward projects. As I have said, I am absolutely determined that the UK should be a global science superpower, and my Department is making good progress on a UK advanced research projects agency. We are engaging with a wide range of researchers and innovators, and we will set out further plans in due course.
Chi Onwurah (Newcastle upon Tyne Central) (Lab)
I welcome the Secretary of State and the Science Minister to their places. Science is critical to our national prosperity, and it is important that it should be led by them, rather than by the misfit master of Downing Street, so can the Secretary of State clarify the confusing statement from No. 10 on the European research programme? International collaboration is the heartbeat of research and development. For every £1 we put into the European Union programme, we got £1.30 back, and such funding is essential if we are to retain our place as a global science superpower, so will the Secretary of State boost UK science by confirming that we will be going for full associate membership?
Alok Sharma
Of course I want the UK to be a science superpower, and we have set out our views on expanding the R&D budget. On Europe, our EU negotiating objectives are very clear: the UK will consider participation in Horizon Europe and Euratom, but this will be part of the wider negotiations.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
The Royal College of Physicians has found that something like 64,000 people a year die prematurely as a result of unclean air at a cost of some £20 billion. In addition to continuing the research and development into electric cars, will the Secretary of State lobby the Chancellor and the Environment Secretary to continue the grant of £3,500 for clean cars, so that we can have an enforceable regime for air quality and a platform for research and development and for exports in the green industries, particularly in relation to sustainable transport?
Alok Sharma
The hon. Gentleman raises an important point. We currently have 460,000 green jobs in this country, and we want to push that to 2 million. I would be happy to meet him to discuss the specific point that he has raised.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Across the whole of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, universities have played a critical role in research and development. What help will the Secretary of State give to Queen’s University and Ulster University in Belfast, as well as to the Greenmount Agricultural College, so that they can apply for funding to help research and development across the whole of the United Kingdom?
Alok Sharma
Of course, UKRI provides funding for a whole range of universities. Again, if the hon. Gentleman has specific ideas for projects, perhaps he would come forward with them.
Mr Richard Bacon (South Norfolk) (Con)
It is possible to build a house that costs nothing to heat, but that is not happening at scale at the moment. Does my right hon. Friend consider it part of his Department’s responsibilities to support research into making this more widespread, which would be hugely beneficial for the planet?
Alok Sharma
I know that my hon. Friend is an authority on the house building sector, and I had an opportunity to work with him on these issues when I was the Housing and Planning Minister. He raises an important point. We know that 15% of emissions are from housing, and we are looking to see how we can bring that down as part of the net zero target.
Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Nadhim Zahawi)
The hon. Gentleman, as chair of the all-party parliamentary group on aerospace, will know that aerospace is a high-value growth sector driven by innovation, which is why the Government and the industry are co-investing £3.9 billion up to 2026 in aerospace research and development, and a further £300 million in the future flight challenge.
Christian Matheson
I am grateful to the Minister for that answer. The UK leads the world in aerospace technology, but it faces the same pressures as other sectors with regard to environmental sustainability, so may I urge him to increase long-term funding for the industry so that we can retain our global lead while meeting the challenge of net zero?
Nadhim Zahawi
The hon. Gentleman raises an important question. The Prince of Wales and I co-chaired a deep dive at the Whittle laboratory, with the whole industry around the table, to consider how we can deliver on net zero for the industry. We were targeting a fully electric aircraft that, at 500 miles, could cover most of Europe and take 180 passengers, and of course we are looking at other technologies for longer haul flights. We are also creating the innovators of the future with 500 additional master’s level postgraduate places for aerospace.
Simon Fell (Barrow and Furness) (Con)
Matt Vickers (Stockton South) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Amanda Solloway)
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
The Government are committed to making the UK a world leader in clean growth, building on existing strengths in sectors such as nuclear and offshore wind. We are taking action to deliver that, including by investing £3 billion in low-carbon innovation to 2021 and £170 million from the industrial strategy challenge fund to support our industrial decarbonisation mission to create at least one low-carbon industrial cluster by 2030.
Simon Fell
Tidal energy could be a game changer for my constituency of Barrow and Furness, for Morecambe bay and for the wider United Kingdom, through clean energy production and the ability to lead the world in this technology. Does my hon. Friend agree that, when considering the viability of these schemes, we have to rewrite the Treasury’s Green Book to take into account not only the unit cost of energy produced, but the value to the UK of leading in this technology and the social impact of bringing the schemes to constituencies such as mine?
Amanda Solloway
I thank my hon. Friend for that question; I know how passionately he cares about the issue. I agree that the seas around the UK offer huge opportunities for cutting emissions and growing our economy. The offshore wind projects near his constituency offer an excellent example of UK leadership in renewable power. We are determined to drive growth in all parts of the UK and ensure that our assessment of projects takes full account not just of carbon savings, but of the growth and opportunities that they can provide for people across the country.
Matt Vickers
The Net Zero Teesside project aims to decarbonise the Teesside industrial cluster by as early as 2030, capturing up to 6 million tonnes of carbon dioxide annually. The project could support up to 5,500 direct jobs, and it could help to safeguard as many as 16,000 existing jobs in the Tees valley. The UK has a unique chance to lead global development of a new carbon capture, utilisation and storage industry. Will the Government prioritise this technology?
Amanda Solloway
My hon. Friend, who I know cares passionately about this issue, makes a really good point; CCUS will be vital to meeting our net zero target and revitalising the UK’s industrial areas. The Government have invested over £50 million in CCUS innovation, and recently we consulted on potential business models to help progress deployment. The CCUS action plan aims to enable the commissioning of the first facility in the UK in the mid-2020s. We committed in our manifesto to investing £800 million towards that, and £500 million to help energy-intensive industries move to low-carbon techniques.
Bill Esterson (Sefton Central) (Lab)
If the Government want to help clean growth, they can invest in the Mersey tidal power project. It is clean, entirely predictable, and could power 1 million homes. It offers high-quality jobs and has massive domestic and export potential. Steve Rotheram and the Liverpool City Region Combined Authority have just committed a further £3.5 million to the project, so will the Government back the people of the north-west by supporting investment in this exciting new project? It is a chance to demonstrate that they are interested in and serious about tackling the climate crisis.
Amanda Solloway
Yes, absolutely. We need to do that for research and development in all technologies, and I will welcome the opportunity to meet the hon. Gentleman in the future.
Alan Brown (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
The Minister says the UK is a world leader in offshore wind, but the reality is that too many manufacturing and supply chain jobs go abroad following the award of contracts for difference. Will she look seriously at including a quality assessment mechanism in the bid process to incentivise companies to use UK firms such as CSWind and BiFab?
Amanda Solloway
We are making sure that we get to 60% UK employment in manufacturing by investing in R&D. We are committed to doing that.
Alan Mak (Havant) (Con)
Nuclear fusion and cleantech are key drivers of the fourth industrial revolution that will help to create hundreds of thousands of jobs across the whole country this decade. Will my hon. Friend ensure that the COP26 summit is used to showcase our country’s green entrepreneurs?
Jessica Morden (Newport East) (Lab)
As the Government rejected the opportunity to create new clean jobs when they scrapped the Swansea bay tidal lagoon, which had huge potential for communities along the Severn to kick-start further lagoons, may I, along with other hon. Members, urge them to look again at the huge potential of tidal power?
Amanda Solloway
I can confirm that we have a commitment to net zero, and we are doing everything we can to look at carbon neutral.
Jonathan Gullis (Stoke-on-Trent North) (Con)
Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Nadhim Zahawi)
We have schemes worth nearly £2 billion operating, or in development, to support our vital energy-intensive industries to decarbonise. We will also invest in building the UK’s first fully deployed carbon capture, usage and storage cluster, and we are progressing carbon capture and hydrogen business models, both of which are crucial technologies in decarbonising our industry.
Jonathan Gullis
Achieving net zero is a considerable challenge for energy-intensive industries like ceramics, given the twin requirements of decarbonising without reducing international competitiveness. However, it is a challenge the sector can and will rise to, provided the UK puts supportive policies in place. Are the Government prepared to work actively with the ceramics industry, like Churchill China and Steelite, to help incentivise decarbonisation without, critically, undermining its international competitiveness?
Nadhim Zahawi
We must work together with industry to help our vital manufacturing regions benefit from clean growth opportunities. Stoke-on-Trent North is lucky to have such a Member championing its cause. We have a number of schemes in place, such as the transforming foundation industries challenge fund, the industrial heat recovery scheme and climate change agreements, to support industries like ceramics to cut bills and save carbon. In addition, we will be opening the industrial energy transformation fund to applications for phase 1 this spring.
Jack Brereton
Manufacturers in Stoke-on-Trent rely on energy-intensive processes to create their world-class products. What assistance can the Government give to help innovation in reducing the amount of carbon emissions generated in those processes?
Nadhim Zahawi
I am grateful to my hon. Friend the Member for Stoke-on-Trent South (Jack Brereton) and, of course, the south is as lucky as the north to have such a fantastic champion in this House.
We have a number of schemes, as I have already mentioned, particularly the transforming foundation industries challenge fund, which will support energy-intensive industries to work with each other to innovate in reducing carbon emissions. This is a joint Government and industry fund. The first competition for projects closed at the beginning of February, and applicants are due to find out later this month whether they have been successful.
Alex Cunningham (Stockton North) (Lab)
Teesside is a major centre for high-carbon, energy-intensive industries, which are nervous about high energy costs, the future of the REACH regulations and carbon costs. It is good to have my near neighbour, the hon. Member for Stockton South (Matt Vickers), also supporting the CCUS campaign, but how can the Minister reassure the industry that the Government will address the high cost issues and, in particular, the REACH regulations that he is about to ditch?
Nadhim Zahawi
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question. We engaged with industry constantly throughout this process: when I took this job on last year, we engaged with industry over REACH, and we are looking at a UK REACH. Most importantly, we are looking at the energy-intensive industries and how we can innovate, for example, in steel and in the steel cluster. We have had good news today for British Steel, and we can use the investment that the Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth is making in carbon capture, usage and storage to turn the industry into the greenest steel industry in Europe.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
Will the Government help to decarbonise the Rhondda? I ask because following the flooding we have seen significant landslides on former coal sites. I do not want to overstate this, but there is some anxiety about what that might mean for the future and stability of some of these tips. Will the Minister make sure that the Secretary of State meets me and other MPs in affected areas to make sure that the Coal Authority is doing everything in its power to make sure everybody is safe?
Nadhim Zahawi
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his question. The Secretary of State will certainly meet him and other concerned MPs, and make sure that the Coal Authority is doing everything it can. I would also like to visit to see for myself what is happening, so that we can work together on this. Getting to net zero by 2050 is a joint effort by the whole of this House, not just this Government.
Robbie Moore (Keighley) (Con)
Ben Everitt (Milton Keynes North) (Con)
Rob Butler (Aylesbury) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)
Last month we launched businesssupport.gov.uk, our new website bringing together all Government information available to help businesses start, grow and scale. In my first week, I was delighted to chair the Rose review board, which works with industry leaders to break down the barriers that female entrepreneurs face.
Robbie Moore
I thank the Minister for his response. Last week my constituents Martin and Deanne Brook proudly opened a brand new post office on Halifax Road in Cross Roads, which they operate in conjunction with their already successful small family business, SMS Workshop Supplies Ltd. What steps are the Government taking to help incentivise small business owners like them to explore the possibility of providing Post Office services as a means of safeguarding the post office network?
Paul Scully
This is about working with Members such as my hon. Friend and coming up with imaginative ways of opening up post offices, including Martin and Deanne’s in their hardware store. It is also important that we take the Post Office’s relationship with postmasters seriously and closely monitor the situation during the legal proceedings that many people are going through and have been through recently. The Post Office, under its new chief executive officer, has since accepted that it got things wrong. He has apologised and said that it aims to re-establish a positive relationship with postmasters. The Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy is working actively with the Post Office on this matter and will hold it to account on its progress. We are also looking into what more needs to be done.[Official Report, 13 March 2020, Vol. 673, c. 4MC.]
Ben Everitt
In Milton Keynes, we can get our groceries delivered by robot, and I was fortunate last week to meet some of the humans from Starship Technologies who wrangle these robots. What support is my hon. Friend giving to small businesses and start-ups such as Starship Technologies, which are at the forefront of innovative new technology?
Paul Scully
Fortunately, questions are not answered by robot yet, so I am still here. [Interruption.] Well, there is a bit of character and it is less robotic. I believe that 50,000 deliveries have been done by Starship Technologies in Milton Keynes, so that is an excellent example. We need to make sure that small businesses can innovate, scale and grow, and we are supporting them to do so through such schemes as Innovate UK smart grants, tax credits and the annual investment allowances, and through programmes supported by the British Business Bank. Research and development tax credits are the single biggest Government support for business investment in R&D. So far, just over £4.3 billion has been claimed through those tax credits in 2017-18, £2.3 billion of which was claimed through the small and medium-sized enterprise scheme.
Rob Butler
Small businesses in my constituency, including in the village of Stokenchurch, frequently tell me that they find it particularly hard to make a profit on the traditional high street. What can the Minister do to help traditional town centres to thrive, and become commercial and community hubs?
Paul Scully
We want our town centres and high streets, including in Stokenchurch in Aylesbury, to be vibrant community hubs where people can live, shop and use services. To support that, we are delivering a £1 billion future high streets fund, as part of a £3.6 billion towns fund to level up our regions. We are committed to a fundamental review of business rates, which the Treasury will announce in due course.
Rebecca Long Bailey (Salford and Eccles) (Lab)
I welcome the Minister and the Secretary of State and his new team to their places. I look forward to our future exchanges.
Last week I visited a café in Calder Valley that, despite having just started trading, has been ruined by relentless flooding. The owners, like the owners of so many small businesses, have received no support from the Government and have been left to repair the damage on their own, at their own cost, with the help of local people. Will the Minister outline to the House what meaningful financial support has been made available to businesses affected by flooding? Will the Government protect such businesses in future by outlining in the Budget an increase in the UK’s capital spend on flood defences to approximately £1 billion a year, as advised by the Environment Agency and the National Infrastructure Commission?
Paul Scully
We have spent £2.6 billion on flooding so far and announced £4 billion in our manifesto. The business recovery grant provides local authorities with funding of £2,500 for severely affected businesses like the café the hon. Lady described. It is important that we support small and medium-sized businesses to recover and help to support local economies.
Rebecca Long Bailey
The Minister must acknowledge that that is a paltry amount of support. According to the Federation of Small Businesses, flooding will cost small businesses hundreds of millions of pounds, and thousands cannot find affordable flood insurance. Furthermore, on flood defence the Government have pledged less than half the capital advised—only £450 million a year for the next six years. The Prime Minister refused to hold a Cobra meeting following the floods and he could not even be bothered to visit the flood-affected areas. Is it not the case that the Government’s response to this disaster is yet another example of a part-time Prime Minister failing to provide the leadership that our country needs in a time of crisis?
Paul Scully
The Prime Minister is leading on this situation from the front. He is getting money out the door. As a former small-business owner, I would welcome any visit from the Prime Minister, but what I would welcome more is the money that we are getting out the door on day one to help these businesses.
Drew Hendry (Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey) (SNP)
I too welcome the Secretary of State and his new ministerial team to their places.
The UK’s proposals on EU trade negotiations could reduce Scottish GDP by 6.1%, or £1,600 per person. Small businesses, including many in the food sector, simply cannot afford to cope with the prospect of such Mad Max economics. They need help now, so will the Minister join me in calling for a cut to employers’ national insurance, to help them and to help to protect jobs?
Paul Scully
We will see what happens in the Budget. Employment allowance has benefited businesses—including my former business—up and down the country. Businesses want meaningful things in the Budget, rather than platitudes from the Opposition.
Drew Hendry
That response comes as absolutely no surprise, given the email from a key adviser to the Chancellor leaked at the weekend that said that the food sector “isn’t critically important”. We all remember the Prime Minister’s shocking attitude and use of the F-word in relation to business concerns when he said “F*** business”. It now seems that the Government are doubling down on that and it is “F*** farming” and “F*** fishing.” With the Minister refusing to support businesses in their hour of need, it is clear to all that this Government deserve an F for their economic incompetence.
Paul Scully
To date, the UK Government have committed up to £3.08 billion for city region and growth deals throughout Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Since 2012, the British Business Bank has issued more than 4,200 start-up loans in Scotland, worth more than £32 million in total. That is actual action for businesses.
Derek Thomas (St Ives) (Con)
I thank the Minister for his commitment to small business. Small businesses in Cornwall, and especially on the Isles of Scilly, face an unprecedented challenge on 1 January as a result of the proposed immigration Bill. Will the Minister work with the Home Office to make sure that small businesses that do not have a workforce in the local area sitting around looking to and able to fill posts are able to carry on doing business next year?
Paul Scully
I happily confirm to my hon. Friend that our new immigration system is flexible, so, yes, we will work with businesses all around the country to ensure that we have the skills that we need to allow businesses to thrive.
Chris Elmore (Ogmore) (Lab)
For the past two weekends, properties and businesses in the Rhondda Cynon Taff area—I am one of the MPs for that authority area—have seen devastating flooding. Just this week, I was out helping businesses in my constituency find sandbags and pumps from my local authority. The Welsh Government, the Rhondda Cynon Taff council and council leader Andrew Morgan are offering support to small businesses, so if the Minister is to announce additional funding for those businesses that have been impacted, I plead with him not to forget about Welsh small businesses.
Paul Scully
I have already talked about the £2,500 that we have been getting out through that business recovery grant, but we will always look to continue to work with businesses in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland as well as in England. It is important, as the hon. Gentleman said, that communities come together, which is why there is support for community economies, ensuring that they can continue to survive and thrive.
Richard Fuller (North East Bedfordshire) (Con)
My hon. Friend will be a great supporter of small businesses, so will he get off to a fast start by urging the Treasury to scrap its misguided changes to IR35? Those changes are punishing small businesses, with large companies already implementing blanket bans that the Treasury had said in a statement would not yet be implemented, and with the HMRC’s own assessment tool creating confusion, not clarity, for entrepreneurs.
Paul Scully
I am sure the Chancellor will hear that question. As my hon. Friend well knows, that is a matter for the Budget, which is still under review.
Nadia Whittome (Nottingham East) (Lab)
The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Alok Sharma)
I am delighted to have been appointed COP President. I have already held discussions with former COP Presidents, including Paris COP President Laurent Fabius. I met, among others, the UN Deputy Secretary General Amina Mohammed and Patricia Espinosa at the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change. Last week, together with the Prime Minister’s COP26 climate finance adviser, Mark Carney, I launched the COP26 finance strategy. My officials and I are working at pace to deliver a successful summit.
Nadia Whittome
COP26 will be the most critical talks since Paris, yet preparations so far have been beset by chaos. What response can the Minister provide to the former COP President who says that this Government are presiding over “a huge lack of leadership” on the issue. The Prime Minister has admitted to her that he does not even understand climate change. Does the Minister acknowledge the embarrassing lack of credibility and competence that the Prime Minister has shown on COP26 preparations?
Alok Sharma
I thank the former COP President for her work. The hon. Lady talks about the Prime Minister’s leadership. I can assure Members that when we were at the UN General Assembly in September, there was a huge amount of positivity around his leadership in doubling our International Climate Finance commitment. She will also know that last month the Prime Minister launched the Year of Climate Action. He is absolutely leading on this issue from the front, and the rest of us are supporting him. Let me tell her that we are absolutely determined to make sure that COP26 is a success, not just for the UK but because it matters to the whole world.
Dr Alan Whitehead (Southampton, Test) (Lab)
Every country has to submit its contribution to climate action before COP26 meets. Why is the Secretary of State preparing the UK’s contribution statement on the basis of the fifth carbon budget, which works towards a target of only 80% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions by 2050, when this House has determined that the target to be met should be net zero by 2050?
Alok Sharma
We met the first two carbon budgets, and we are on track to meet the third. Of course, I recognise the need for further action: 2020 will be a year of climate action, as I have said, and we have new plans to decarbonise key sectors in industry.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
I congratulate the Department on its far-sighted announcement yesterday that sets the tone for COP26 by allowing onshore wind and solar projects, which have local support, to bid for funding. The announcement also floated a further pot for less developed technologies, such as tidal stream and wave, some of which the Energy Minister and I met last week. Does my right hon. Friend agree that we should pursue this opportunity to develop diverse sources of green energy and look closely at the innovative tax credit proposal, innovation power purchase agreement, to help some of these technologies get off the ground?
Alok Sharma
I make the general point that innovation is vital in all sectors of industry, but particularly in the renewables sector. As my hon. Friend will know, the proposal that we set out will help the UK to achieve its 2050 net zero ambition. Ultimately, this is about achieving value for money by driving further cost reductions in renewable electricity.
Rachel Reeves (Leeds West) (Lab)
I welcome the Secretary of State and his new ministerial team to their places. The Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy Committee looks forward to taking evidence from them, and I am sure that they look forward to that as well.
May I follow up on the question from my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Test (Dr Whitehead) about our fourth and fifth carbon budgets? Those carbon budgets are premised on achieving an 80% reduction in carbon emissions, yet this House has unanimously passed legislation to achieve net zero. It is neither coherent, nor showing leadership, for our fourth and fifth carbon budgets to be based on an outdated objective that this House has rejected. Can the Secretary of State confirm that we will be updating our fourth and fifth carbon budgets—and, crucially, that we will meet them?
Alok Sharma
I thank the hon. Lady for welcoming my ministerial team and me. Of course I look forward to coming before her Select Committee. Let me be absolutely clear: we are one of the first countries in the world to have legislated for a net zero target, and we have demonstrated our global leadership. We have met the first two carbon budgets and are on track to meet the third, but I take her point.
Alexander Stafford (Rother Valley) (Con)
I agree that one of the best ways of preparing for COP26 is bringing forward the new contracts for difference auctions for onshore wind and solar, which will help us to achieve net zero. Could we also take this opportunity to demonstrate to the hard-working taxpayers of Rother Valley and across the country that we can reduce their bills by going green. Can we make it a key part of COP26 to show that going green is better value for those hard-working people?
Alok Sharma
My hon. Friend makes a very important point. Offshore wind prices have dropped by over two thirds between 2015 and 2019 because of the CfD auctions. Going green is positive for the economy: GDP has grown by 75% since 1990, yet we have also managed to reduce emissions by 43%.
Stuart C. McDonald (Cumbernauld, Kilsyth and Kirkintilloch East) (SNP)
The Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth (Kwasi Kwarteng)
The hon. Gentleman will know that we have many conversations across Government. I have spoken with the Secretary of State for Scotland, as well as the Energy Minister in the devolved Administration. In fact, I spoke to colleagues just yesterday.
Stuart C. McDonald
I for one would like to say how delighted I am that the Government have finally listened to the common-sense advice of Scottish National party Members on the issue of onshore renewable energy and contracts for difference, even if the delay has cost us five wasted years. Looking ahead, will the Minister ensure that the contracts for difference process is reformed to maximise growth and opportunities for the Scottish and UK supply chains, and how exactly will he go about doing that?
Kwasi Kwarteng
As the hon. Gentleman will know, we have been particularly successful in the offshore wind auctions, and we came to our conclusion not because of SNP lobbying, but because we felt that having a pot 1 auction was the best way to reach the net zero carbon target in a timely way by 2050.
David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale) (Con)
It is important to put it on the record that not everyone in Scotland will welcome yesterday’s announcement, not least my constituents, who have more wind turbines—in sight or planned—than any other constituency in the United Kingdom. Given the ineffective planning system operated by the Scottish Government and their willingness to override local decision making, what reassurance can the Minister give my constituents that they are not going to be overwhelmed by continuing wind farms?
Kwasi Kwarteng
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his question. We are very mindful of community consent and engagement with the planning process through consultation periods. We are also ensuring that the planning regime is robust. On balance, it was felt that we needed to make a move on this pot 1 auction in order to reach the target.
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
The Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth (Kwasi Kwarteng)
The right hon. Gentleman will know that we have announced, with the Department for International Trade, that we will no longer provide any new export finance or new export credit for thermal coalmining or coal-powered plants overseas.
Stephen Timms
I am grateful to the Minister for that confirmation. Following the Prime Minister’s announcement at the UK-Africa investment summit, will the Minister set out whether there is going to be a transition period prior to the welcome situation that he has described? Does he agree that UK Export Finance should be promoting the transition away from all fossil fuels in developing countries as soon as possible?
Kwasi Kwarteng
The right hon. Gentleman is absolutely right. Any form of financing should absolutely take into account our net zero commitment, and it is in the process of doing so. On the question of coal, I take the opportunity to reiterate the fact that the Prime Minister, only last month, announced the intention to consult on bringing forward the coal closure to 1 October 2024. Even last month, only about 3% of our power generation was coming from coal. So this is a very achievable target, and we are very hopeful that we can take coal entirely off the grid by October 2024.
Mark Pawsey (Rugby) (Con)
The move to generate electricity from sources other than coal is very welcome, but some manufacturing processes will still require a supply of coal. Does the Minister agree that it is better for that coal to be supplied from domestic sources rather than being shipped halfway around the world?
Kwasi Kwarteng
My hon. Friend is right. Obviously, from a coal and carbon emissions reduction point of view, it makes sense to have a locally based coal source rather than shipping it in a very costly way halfway around the world. That is a fair point. On the point about coal, the 2024 target is absolutely achievable. It is something we are absolutely committed to doing. In the long run, coal will be taken completely off the power generation grid, and that is something to be celebrated across the whole House.
John Mc Nally (Falkirk) (SNP)
The Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Alok Sharma)
My Department is leading the green revolution, working towards a target of net zero emissions by 2050. We are unleashing innovation and making the UK the best place in the world to start and grow a business. We are creating better corporate governance, improving employment protections and working practices, and contributing to the UK’s labour market strategy. Our preparations for COP26 are gathering pace, ramping up momentum towards a global zero carbon economy.
John Mc Nally
The recent BEIS Committee report was clear that the UK could not credibly adopt a net zero emissions target unless it invests in carbon capture and undersea storage. Does the Secretary of State plan to extend the Tory manifesto’s proposals on CCUS plants to Scotland so that we can create and deliver a clean growth structure?
Alok Sharma
I certainly agree that CCUS is going to be essential to successfully tackling climate change. The hon. Gentleman talks about innovation funding for Scotland. I can tell him that £4.8 million is supporting the development of Project Acorn, which is a CCUS project based in north-east Scotland.
Mary Robinson (Cheadle) (Con)
For over 40 years, Jim Hall Sports has been at the heart of Bramhall village. However, the future of the shop is in doubt after Nike’s decision to terminate its supply agreements with smaller independent shops. This follows years of annual rises in the amounts that independent retailers have needed to sell to hold on to their merchandise account. It is a move that is a harbinger of the end of many independent stores in an already pressurised high street market. What discussions has my hon. Friend had with sports giants such as Nike to ensure that Jim Hall’s and other independent sports shops continue to have a future on our high streets?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)
I thank my hon. Friend for sticking up for small businesses in her constituency. Large suppliers of consumer products, especially those who are leaders in their field, have a responsibility to treat retailers fairly and transparently, regardless of their size. If they think they are being unfairly treated, they could go to the Competition and Markets Authority. Contractual arrangements are between two private companies. However, we will support our high streets through the towns fund and the establishment of the high street taskforce.
Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)
Coronavirus is impacting on every aspect of work, from the cost to employers to the cost to workers. The Health Secretary has said that employers should view isolation as sick leave, but the law does not state that. Even if that was so, those on zero-hours contracts and in insecure work are unlikely to have sickness cover, and statutory sick pay does not pay for the first three days, meaning that those with little means have to choose between health and hardship—an issue I raised with the Health Minister a month ago. So what discussions has the Business Secretary had with Cabinet colleagues to ensure that workers are financially protected to stop the risk of spreading coronavirus?
Alok Sharma
The hon. Lady is right: this is a very serious issue, which affects individuals and challenges businesses. Those who do not qualify for statutory sick pay, including those who are self-employed, may be able to claim universal credit or new-style employment and support allowance.
Steve Double (St Austell and Newquay) (Con)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Nadhim Zahawi)
I had the pleasure, with my hon. Friend, of meeting Cornish Lithium recently, and it was made clear that lithium extraction provides an excellent opportunity to contribute to our efforts to level up Cornwall, as well as securing our net zero objectives. I thank him for the invitation. I would be delighted to visit Cornwall.
Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
Alok Sharma
We are committed to supporting the retail sector, and we are working closely with the industry through the Retail Sector Council. As the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Paul Scully), noted in reply to a question earlier, we are supporting high streets with the £1 billion future high streets fund.
Suzanne Webb (Stourbridge) (Con)
Alok Sharma
We are committed to securing investment for a UK gigafactory to support electrical vehicle manufacturing. Indeed, last week, I met Andy Street and Ralf Speth, who is the chief executive officer of Jaguar Land Rover, to discuss their thoughts on this matter. We recognise the strength of the west midlands, where £138 million has already been invested in the UK Battery Industrialisation Centre scheduled to open near Coventry this summer.
Dr Lisa Cameron (East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow) (SNP)
Alok Sharma
The hon. Lady talks about support for business. We provide that through small start-up loans and the British Business Bank, but I or one of my colleagues would be happy to have a discussion with her on the specific issue she raises.
Sir Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con)
Alok Sharma
My right hon. Friend speaks from experience, having been a business Minister in the past. We are absolutely committed to making sure that we reduce burdensome regulation and red tape, but we need to make sure that we stick with the protections that are there for employees.
Mrs Sharon Hodgson (Washington and Sunderland West) (Lab)
Alok Sharma
I will make sure that my colleagues and I have the discussion. Perhaps the hon. Lady would like to share with my office the details of that case.
Theo Clarke (Stafford) (Con)
Paul Scully
I thank my hon. Friend for that question. Last week, I co-chaired the Rose review board, which is overseeing the progress made in delivering on the initiatives from that review. The Treasury has launched the investing in women code, which to date has 22 signatories from across the financial services industry. I look forward to working with my colleagues in government and business to drive forward this important agenda.
Chris Evans (Islwyn) (Lab/Co-op)
Tidal’s Store in my constituency is paying a high amount of business rates—proportionately more than the local retail park down the road—which it says is putting it at a disadvantage. Will the Minister have a word with his Treasury colleagues about reforming business rates for small businesses such as Tidal’s?
Paul Scully
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that question. I know that that is something that exercises high streets up and down the country. The Treasury is looking at this and reviewing business rates as a whole.
Michael Fabricant (Lichfield) (Con)
When I was in business years ago, it came to something when Ríkisútvarpið in Iceland and Nederlandse Omroep Stichting in Holland paid quicker than the BBC. What can my hon. Friend do to ensure that large businesses pay smaller businesses quickly and on time?
Paul Scully
I thank my hon. Friend for that question. We will be strengthening the Small Business Commissioner’s powers. We already have a tough approach to large companies that do not comply with the payment practices and reporting duty. We are strengthening and reforming the prompt payment code and moving administration to the Small Business Commissioner. The business basics fund competition encourages SMEs to utilise payment technology and boost productivity, and the winners will be announced in April.
Jamie Stone (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Local crofters in Melness support the proposal to establish a vertical space launch facility in Sutherland, and they have written to the Prime Minister to tell him that. Does the Secretary of State agree that that would be good for the local economy and that the UK has a huge opportunity in terms of launching satellites for other countries that do not have launch facilities?
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Amanda Solloway)
I thank the hon. Member for that question. We have united Departments across Government to develop a UK space strategy, which will help the UK lead the way in this fast-growing area and create thousands of jobs across the country. Our space strategy will support cutting-edge space science and technologies and foster world-leading British innovation.
Neil O'Brien (Harborough) (Con)
Nearly half the core research and development budget is spent in just three cities—Oxford, Cambridge and London—and yet for every pound of private investment that such spending leverages in London, we get £3 in the east midlands and £5 in the west midlands. Does the Minister agree that, if we are going to level up, we need a fairer division of spending on R&D?
Alok Sharma
As I said in answer to an earlier question, I absolutely want to see levelling up, and I want to see money put into centres of excellence around the country.
Mr Barry Sheerman (Huddersfield) (Lab/Co-op)
I welcome the Secretary of State to his role. I enjoyed working with him in his previous job, and I am sure he will do a very good job in this Department. Is he aware of the dire situation of businesses in my constituency because the workshop of the world—China—has closed for business? There is no supply chain, and manufacturing companies up and down the country are in a dire situation. This is a crisis caused by coronavirus, and we have not stepped up to the plate yet to face the measure of this terrible disaster.
Nadhim Zahawi
I thank the hon. Member for his question, but he is wrong. We have stood up a very important group within the Department that is working with the automotive sector, the retail sector and others that are impacted by China’s supply chain problems. We continue to monitor the situation closely, as well as the critical infrastructure that keeps the UK’s lights on and the UK economy powering ahead.
Harriett Baldwin (West Worcestershire) (Con)
Does the Minister agree that one of the best ways to level up the great British high street with the internet would be to allow our high street shops to choose when they open?
Paul Scully
I know that my hon. Friend has looked at extending the hours of the Malvern tourist information centre. The Government have reviewed this issue several times. There are strongly held views on both sides. We believe that the current rules represent a fair compromise between those seeking reduced opening hours and those seeking greater liberalisation.
Sammy Wilson (East Antrim) (DUP)
At the same time as the Government have re-announced subsidies for onshore wind, Scottish Forestry has revealed that 13.9 million trees have been cut down for wind farms on its land. Does the Minister share my concern at those acts of economic vandalism? Does he believe that it is in the economic and environmental interests of this country to tear down trees, cut up peatland and erect steel structures on pristine landscapes in the vain hope that we can change the climate?
The Minister for Business, Energy and Clean Growth (Kwasi Kwarteng)
I am always very interested in the right hon. Gentleman’s contributions on this subject. We should look at the details of actual deforestation, but he must not allow himself to get distracted from the big picture. The deployment of offshore wind has been a huge success for the UK. As the Secretary of State said, the price per megawatt hour has come down by two thirds and renewable energy is absolutely at the centre of our strategy to reach net zero carbon.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
In 2016, the United States became a net exporter of liquefied natural gas. In 2019, the United States became a net exporter of all oil products: both crude and refined. In order to diversify the UK’s energy risk, is it not time that the Government started to interact with the United States, perhaps as part of a trade deal, to import both gas and oil from the United States?
Nadhim Zahawi
I thank my hon. Friend for his question. I met the newly appointed US Energy Secretary a couple of weeks ago and we work very closely with the United States. Of course, this week we published our terms for our negotiation for a free trade agreement with that great country.
Recent Violence in India
(4 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Urgent Questions are proposed each morning by backbench MPs, and up to two may be selected each day by the Speaker. Chosen Urgent Questions are announced 30 minutes before Parliament sits each day.
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Mr Khalid Mahmood (Birmingham, Perry Barr) (Lab)
(Urgent Question): To ask the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs if he will make a statement on recent violence in India and the Citizenship (Amendment) Act.
The Minister for Asia (Nigel Adams)
With your permission, Mr Speaker, I will respond to this urgent question as the Foreign Secretary is in Turkey today.
The British high commission in New Delhi and our extensive diplomatic network of deputy high commissions across India are monitoring closely the recent violence in India and developments around the Citizenship (Amendment) Act 2019. The events in Delhi last week were very concerning, and the situation is still tense. The death of one protester is one too many. We urge restraint from all parties and trust that the Indian Government will address the concerns of people of all religions in India. We also condemn any incidents of violence, persecution or targeting of people based on religion or belief, wherever it happens in the world.
India has a proud history of inclusive government and religious tolerance. Its secular constitution, which guarantees equality before the law, has been an exemplar of inclusive democracy. After his re-election, I note that Prime Minister Modi promised to continue this under the guiding principles of
“together with all, development for all and trust for all”.
These shared strengths and values are central to the governance of both our countries. It is a central message of our foreign policy that societies are stronger and safer when we embrace our diversity rather than fear it.
Related to this, many people have made it clear that they have concerns about the Government of India recently signing into law the Citizenship (Amendment) Act, which expedites the path to citizenship for Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Parsis and Christians, but notably not Muslims or minority sects. The UK Government also have concerns about the potential impact of the legislation. It is because of our close relationship with the Government of India that we are able to discuss difficult issues with them and make clear our concerns where we have them, including on the rights of minorities.
Most recently, my ministerial colleague Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon raised these concerns about the impact of the CAA with a senior member of India’s Ministry of External Affairs on 25 February. Officials from the British high commission in New Delhi also raised our concerns about the potential impact of the CAA and the police response to the protests with the state government of Uttar Pradesh on 7 February. Our former high commissioner in New Delhi, Sir Dominic Asquith, also raised the issue with the Government of India in January, as did Foreign and Commonwealth Office officials with the Indian high commission in London.
More broadly, the UK engages with India at all levels, including union and state governments, and with non-governmental organisations to build capacity and share expertise to promote human rights for all. We will continue to follow events closely and to raise our concerns when we have them.
Mr Mahmood
I find the hon. Gentleman’s words rather facile. We have brought him to the Dispatch Box. I raised the issue with the Leader of the House on Thursday, and the Minister is here now. This urgent question concerns the sickening violence against Muslims that we have seen in India in recent weeks following the proposals in the Citizenship (Amendment) Act 2019. The CAA enables undocumented migrants from neighbouring countries to seek Indian citizenship, provided that they meet one condition: they are not Muslim. This is the first such law to have been passed in India since its independence. Next will come a national register of citizens, and undocumented Muslim migrants will automatically be excluded, held in concentration camps and identified for deportation.
Through such laws, Prime Minister Modi is turning a hateful nationalistic slogan into brutality. He recently said, “Hinduon ka Hindustan,” which is literally translated as, “India for the Hindus.” The CAA has generated nationwide protests by Muslims and secular Hindus, prompting politicians from the ultra-nationalist Bharatiya Janata party to demand that the sectarian hate mobs hit back. Recently in Delhi, more than 40 people were killed by mobs that attacked Muslim homes and families, but the authorities took no notice. As a result, in recent weeks, dozens of Muslims have been dragged out of their homes, burned, or beaten to death in the streets by mobs. Thousands of people have lost their livelihoods. All the while, the Indian police look on passively, and Modi cynically counts the benefits of electoral success.
For those who support India and want to see it take its rightful place as one of the global leaders of the 21st century, with a place on the United Nations Security Council, it is sickening to see such a descent into hatred and mob rule. What are the Government doing to take India off this path and to provide protection for its Muslim population? Has the Minister raised the issue with his Indian counterpart, and has he threatened to raise it at Commonwealth and UN level? If India behaves like a state with no regard for human rights, the rule of law or freedom of religion, it must urgently be made to face the consequences of its behaviour.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
Order. I am expecting to run this urgent question for up to 40 minutes.
Nigel Adams
Thank you, Mr Speaker.
I assure the hon. Gentleman that we deplore what we have seen over the last few weeks, and we condemn the violence that has been recorded and broadcast. We have raised, and do raise, concerns with the Indian Government, especially over matters such as this. As I said, we have concerns about the impact of the CAA, and my colleague, Lord Ahmad, has raised them with the Ministry of External Affairs. We continue that dialogue. As recently as mid-February, officials from the British high commission raised our concerns about the impact of the CAA, and particularly about the police response to those protests with the state government of Uttar Pradesh. I assure the hon. Gentleman that our dialogue with the Indian Government is ongoing.
Bob Blackman (Harrow East) (Con)
I commend my hon. Friend for his responses so far, particularly his remark that one protester who is killed is one too many. He will be aware that it is not just Muslims who have been killed; Hindus have also been killed as part of the riots. Will he confirm that there have been 514 arrests following those riots, and that the police have organised 330 separate meetings with different communities to bring them together and calm the situation down? Will he commend that action to restore peace and tranquillity to Delhi?
Nigel Adams
My hon. Friend takes a keen interest in these affairs. I would commend and applaud any action that attempts to take the heat out of the severe tensions over the CAA that currently exist in parts of India.
Alyn Smith (Stirling) (SNP)
There is a lot of agreement across the House, and I commend the Minister on his statement, with which I agreed, as far as it went—we need to be clear that we can go a lot further. The situation has been, as we have heard, occasioned by a deliberate Indian Government policy of targeting Muslims with the Citizenship (Amendment) Act. In the short term, there is a real role for the UK Government—this was not mentioned in the statement—to build on the RESIST Government communication framework, as it is obvious that online disinformation is being used in India to inflame tensions. I commend the Government Communication Service and the Cabinet Office on this work. I think that the UK is in a position to undertake a real assessment of the online actors, including malign actors—this is aside from Indian Government policy, which is another issue, and I urge the Minister to step up efforts on dialogue regarding that—as there are online efforts that could be made against that sort of disinformation, as people are at risk of further violence.
Nigel Adams
The hon. Gentleman makes a sensible and important point. I am pleased that he welcomes the report. Any measures, whether attempting to clamp down on online disinformation or those that my hon. Friend the Member for Harrow East (Bob Blackman) raised, are welcome. We are in constant contact on these issues, and we know how important this is to Members of Parliament and their constituents, who may have family in the area. I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s comments.
Ms Nusrat Ghani (Wealden) (Con)
I welcome my hon. Friend to his new position. Will he confirm that he will use his high office and every power that he has to make sure that Members’ concerns are relayed to the Indian authorities, particularly given that the brutality seems to have been meted out by those who should enforce the law, as was recently shown in BBC coverage.
Nigel Adams
My hon. Friend makes an important point. I alluded to our concerns about some of the police brutality that was meted out. We have long regarded protest as a key part of any democratic society. Democratic Governments must have the power to enforce law and order when a protest crosses the line into illegality, but we also encourage all states to ensure that their domestic laws are enforced in line with all international standards.
Yasmin Qureshi (Bolton South East) (Lab)
In the past five years, Narendra Modi’s BJP Government have chosen a path of systematic discrimination, whether the abrogation of article 35A in Kashmir or the citizenship law. Calling the recent violence “community clashes” seeks to normalise far more sinister events. India is now controlled by a Hindutva supremacist Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh ideology, with strong historic links to the Nazi party. The current Prime Minister of India was a member of the RSS. What steps is our Prime Minister taking to call out that discriminatory practice at the heart of the Indian Government?
Nigel Adams
The hon. Lady makes a powerful point. We are in constant contact with the Indian Government. I mentioned in my statement that we have concerns about the impact of the CAA legislation, particularly on Muslims, and she is right to raise that. Rest assured that, through our close relationship with India, we are able to raise those concerns with that Government, especially in a live situation.
Imran Ahmad Khan (Wakefield) (Con)
The United Kingdom can be justifiably proud of being a world leader in matters relating to freedom of confession. Can the Minister confirm that Her Majesty’s Government will call for a thorough investigation of all and any abuses that have been perpetrated, and use their influence to call for restraint?
Nigel Adams
My hon. Friend makes a sensible point, and it is because we have influence with the Indian Government that we are in a good position to do that. We have close contacts, and we actively promote—I think we are a world leader in this—matters relating to freedom of religion and belief. Ministers and senior officials raise individual cases, and highlight practices and laws, that discriminate against people on that basis.
Mr Tanmanjeet Singh Dhesi (Slough) (Lab)
Incited mob violence in Delhi on the basis of someone’s faith brings back painful personal memories, as a religious minority, of the 1984 genocide of Sikhs while I was studying in India. We must learn from history, not be fooled by those whose insidious aim is to divide society and are hellbent on killing people and destroying religious places in the name of religion. What message has the Minister given to his Indian counterparts that the persecution of Indian Muslims, many of whom who have protested peacefully against the Citizenship (Amendment) Act, is utterly intolerable; that the police cannot stand idly by or, worse still, be complicit, as is alleged by many victims and social activists; and that the perpetrators must feel the full force of the law?
Nigel Adams
The hon. Gentleman speaks very powerfully from personal experience. It is absolutely essential that we speak up when we believe that abuses have taken place. When protest crosses the line into illegality, as I mentioned, the Government need to act within all domestic and international laws to make sure that those laws are enforced. He is absolutely right to raise these issues, and we are constantly talking at ministerial and official levels with the Government of India about our concerns, particularly regarding the CAA.
Marco Longhi (Dudley North) (Con)
I am speaking on behalf of a great number of constituents who have presented me with very grave concerns about what is happening in India. Does my hon. Friend agree that clamping down on any human rights abuses will always be a central part of UK foreign policy?
Nigel Adams
That is absolutely right. We take the lead on this issue around the world and we are well regarded. This is a core part of our foreign policy, and my hon. Friend is absolutely right to raise that in the House on behalf of his constituents.
David Linden (Glasgow East) (SNP)
We know that there is a pattern of behaviour and that this is just the latest example of religious intolerance in India. When Prime Minister Modi welcomed Donald Trump a couple of weeks ago, we saw the two of them embracing each other and scrambling to do a trade agreement. In the scramble for a post-Brexit trade deal, what reassurances can the Minister give that we will not be doing the same, and that we will raise these cases at the highest levels of Government and not ignore human rights when it comes to doing trade deals?
Nigel Adams
While trade is vital for our economy and future prosperity, this in no way compromises the United Kingdom’s commitment to holding human rights at the core of our foreign policy. I guarantee the hon. Gentleman that we will not pursue trade to the exclusion of human rights.
John Howell (Henley) (Con)
The United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights recently introduced an intervention plea in the Supreme Court of India about the CAA; she has been given a brush-off by the Indian Government. What are we doing to bolster the position of the UN commissioner?
Nigel Adams
I am aware of the intervention to which my hon. Friend refers. I assure him that we raise our concerns privately and regularly with the Government of India. We will continue to engage with them on a full range of human rights matters and we raise our concerns when we have them, particularly at the current time.
Mohammad Yasin (Bedford) (Lab)
As the BBC recently reported, the latest outbreak of violence in Delhi is very worrying, as there is evidence that the police are complicit in and, indeed, encouraging violence against Muslims. What are the Government doing to make sure that they are talking to their counterparts in Delhi to ensure that Muslim’s lives there are safe?
Nigel Adams
The hon. Member raises a very good point. Any allegation of human rights abuses is deeply disturbing, and the violence that we saw was incredibly concerning. I assure the House that we have made it clear that those incidents must be investigated thoroughly, promptly and transparently.
Alicia Kearns (Rutland and Melton) (Con)
The fact that the Indian Government have felt able to pass this law and some of the responses that we have seen to it are deeply distressing. Will my hon. Friend not only confirm that he will continue to raise this at the highest level but make a commitment that Foreign Office staff will now start planning how we can act to raise the pressure on this issue before there is any further escalation, rather than reacting in response to it?
Nigel Adams
I know that my hon. Friend has great experience of foreign affairs, having worked in the Department, and she raises a very good and crucial point. Because we have that close relationship with India through our officials and at a ministerial level, we can have that dialogue. She makes a very sensible point about being pre-emptive rather than reactive.
Mr Alistair Carmichael (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)
The Citizenship (Amendment) Act and the violence it has precipitated would be concerning enough if it was a single isolated act, but we all know that it is not; it comes on the heels of Modi’s Government’s actions in relation to Kashmir and the implementation in Assam of a national register of citizens. It is beginning to look like part of a course of conduct designed to marginalise the Muslim population in India. India is part of the Commonwealth. What are we doing through that forum, alongside the bilateral representations that I trust we are making?
Nigel Adams
The right hon. Gentleman rightly mentions the NRC in Assam. I know that there are concerns in that area as well. Through our network of high commissioners, we continually assess that situation. I can get back to the right hon. Gentleman in writing on action through the Commonwealth.
Mark Pritchard (The Wrekin) (Con)
On the intervention application to the Indian Supreme Court by the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, does the Minister believe that this is an internal sovereign issue, or does he believe that it is an international issue, given that India is a signatory to a plethora of international law obligations?
Nigel Adams
We raise these issues directly and have done so privately. I am aware of what the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights has filed, but the UK Government intend to pursue our policy of raising issues directly with the Government of India.
Preet Kaur Gill (Birmingham, Edgbaston) (Lab/Co-op)
In October 1984, Delhi witnessed the genocide of Sikhs in their thousands under Congress rule. What steps is the Minister taking to ensure that all ethnic and religious minorities in India can feel safe, secure and free from persecution?
Nigel Adams
All minorities in India deserve that protection, and I can assure the hon. Lady that we constantly remind our counterparts at official and ministerial levels of their responsibilities in that regard.
Neil O'Brien (Harborough) (Con)
In my constituency, families of Indian origin have wonderful relations with each other, whether they are Hindu, Sikh or Muslim, so it is heartbreaking to see the violence in India. Is the Minister thinking about how we can use all our policies, including our aid policies, to encourage equally good relationships between communities in India itself?
Nigel Adams
My hon. Friend will be aware that the UK Government have several projects in India, though we do not provide funding directly to the Government of India. I know that this can be helpful and that our intervention is appreciated in many areas.
Stephen Timms (East Ham) (Lab)
I echo the Minister’s tribute to the constitution of India. Since it was drafted under the leadership of Dr B. R. Ambedkar after independence, it has been admired around the world for its commitment to equality irrespective of religion. Does he share my sadness that the Citizenship (Amendment) Act is such a decisive move away from that principle because, as he has explained, for some it makes citizenship dependent on their religion?
Nigel Adams
I do share the right hon. Gentleman’s concerns. The UK Government have broad concerns about the Act, which is why we are engaging directly with the Government. He is right to raise this matter because it is a huge concern.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
Those of us with significant Indian Muslim communities will have seen videos showing shocking orchestrated sectarian violence. Can I encourage the Minister to invite the Indian high commissioner to his office to share with him the deep concern of many of our constituents about their families and friends in India? If there is one silver lining in this very dark cloud it is what one Gujarati Muslim said to me, which is that he and his family now value more than ever the pluralism and safety across faiths that this country provides.
Nigel Adams
My hon. Friend speaks with great knowledge and passion on all these matters and is right to raise this issue. I will speak to my ministerial colleague, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon, who I know has a close relationship with the high commissioner. I am sure that this matter has been raised, but on behalf of my hon. Friend and his constituents, I will ensure that Lord Ahmad has a meeting with the high commissioner shortly.
Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP)
Many of my constituents have raised concerns about the ongoing situation in India and Jammu and Kashmir. There is something the Minister could do to be of assistance. There will be many people within the UK Visas and Immigration system awaiting a decision, including people who have been through religious persecution already. What advice would he give to his colleagues in the Home Office on how those cases should be dealt with and will he ensure that the advice on India and Jammu and Kashmir is updated to reflect the ongoing situation?
Nigel Adams
We regularly update our advice on Kashmir via the FCO website and we encourage people to take close notice of that. I am sure that my colleagues in the Home Office will have noted the hon. Lady’s question and will make sure she gets a follow-up.
Mary Robinson (Cheadle) (Con)
Our close relationship with India will ensure that our concerns on this matter are heard. What representations have the Government made to the Government of India to ensure that they, their states and their agents always act in compliance with international law?
Nigel Adams
My hon. Friend raises a good point. It is because we have a close relationship with India that we can raise our concerns at all levels with the Government of India. Most recently, just over a week ago, Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon raised our concerns about the CAA directly with India’s Ministry of External Affairs.
Zarah Sultana (Coventry South) (Lab)
In August 2019, the Indian Government stripped Muslim-majority Jammu and Kashmir of its autonomous status. In December, it passed the Citizenship (Amendment) Act, which provides a path to citizenship for all migrant minorities except Muslims and creates a national register of citizens, forcing Indians to provide documents to prove their citizenship, which many poorer Indians do not have and many Muslims will not be able to get. Does the Minister accept that the recent violence in Delhi, which has been whipped up by BJP politicians and has led to dozens of deaths, is just the latest targeted assault on Muslims by the Modi Government?
Nigel Adams
The UK Government have deep concerns about the escalation that the hon. Lady refers to. She mentioned the NRC, which is currently enacted in the state of Assam. We have not received any confirmation from the Government of India that it will be expanded India-wide, but she is right to raise concerns, because millions of people could be affected and will be very concerned about this policy.
Virginia Crosbie (Ynys Môn) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that the UK leads the way on the global stage on freedom of religion and belief?
Nigel Adams
I do indeed. We actively promote the importance of freedom of religion and belief and we combat discrimination on the basis of religious identity through our diplomatic activity and through the UN and the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe.
Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)
Recently, delegates from Nottingham’s Indian diaspora came to see me and challenged me—quite legitimately—over our special connection and relationship with India, which they said gave us a responsibility to speak out against what we have seen in Kashmir and with the CAA. The Minister has talked about the contact between our Government and the Government of India, but he has not said what impact that has had. He has detailed his strategy. What evidence does he have that it is working?
Nigel Adams
As I have said numerous times, we are constantly making representations where we believe there are human rights abuses. On Kashmir, as is well known, our position is that it is for India and Pakistan to find a lasting political resolution while taking into account the wishes of Kashmiri people. The Indian Government take notice of what the UK Government say, and that dialogue will continue.
Jack Brereton (Stoke-on-Trent South) (Con)
The situation in Jammu and Kashmir is of particular concern to my constituents, many of whom have family and friends in the region. This is obviously a complex issue, but will my hon. Friend agree to put more pressure on the Indian and Pakistani Governments to take action to find a resolution that results in peace in Jammu and Kashmir?
Nigel Adams
Indeed. My ministerial colleagues talk to their colleagues in not just the Indian but the Pakistani Government. I can assure my hon. Friend and his constituents that that dialogue continues, and that we consistently press for channels of dialogue to remain open. We believe that it is for India and Pakistan to find a lasting political resolution, and we want to encourage the pace and scope of their dialogue.
Nadia Whittome (Nottingham East) (Lab)
Will the Minister join me in rejecting the language of riots, clashes, protest and communal violence? This is, in fact, a continuation of sustained and systemic Hindutva violence waged on the Muslim and many minority ethnic communities in India that is sanctioned by Modi’s BJP Government.
Nigel Adams
The UK Government have long regarded protest as a legitimate means of raising issues and as part of democratic society, but any allegations of human rights abuse are very concerning, and we believe that they should be investigated thoroughly, promptly and transparently.
Margaret Ferrier (Rutherglen and Hamilton West) (SNP)
Can the Minister share with us the reason why the Indian Government have excluded Muslims from the Citizenship (Amendment) Act? Does he agree that legislation should never discriminate on the basis of faith?
Nigel Adams
I can assure the hon. Lady that such legislation does give us cause for concern, especially for the Muslim community, and we make those points very clearly when we meet our counterparts.
Coronavirus
(4 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Secretary of State for Health and Social Care (Matt Hancock)
With permission, Mr Speaker, I shall make a statement about the Government’s coronavirus action plan.
The situation facing the country is increasingly serious. Globally and at home, the number of cases continues to rise. As of 9 am today there were 51 confirmed cases in the UK, and it is becoming more likely that we will see widespread transmission in this country. Our approach is to plan for the worst and work for the best. Yesterday I attended a Cobra meeting chaired by the Prime Minister, during which we finalised our four-part action plan to contain, delay, research and mitigate the virus. The plan has been jointly agreed by the UK Government and the devolved Administrations. Copies have been sent to Members of both Houses, and made available in hard copy.
The plan is driven by the science and guided by the expert recommendations of the four UK chief medical officers and the Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies. It sets out what we know so far about the virus and the disease that it causes, what long-term planning we have undertaken to prepare for a pandemic, what actions we have taken so far in response to the current outbreak, and, crucially, the role that the public can play in supporting our response, both now and in the future.
The UK is well prepared for infectious disease outbreaks of this kind. The international data continue to indicate that for most people, this disease is mild and the vast majority recover fully. We have responded to a wide range of disease outbreaks in the recent past, and the NHS has been preparing for a pandemic virus for well over a decade. We have world-class expertise to make sense of the emerging data, we have a strong base on which to build, and, while covid-19 is a new virus, we have adapted our response to take account of that fact.
Our plan sets out a phased response to the outbreak. Phase 1 is to contain, and it is the phase that we are currently in. Contain is about detecting the early cases, following up close contacts, and preventing the disease from taking hold in this country for as long as is reasonably possible. That approach also buys time for the NHS to ramp up its preparations. The scientific advice is that if the number of global cases continues to rise, especially in Europe, we may not be able to contain the virus indefinitely.
At that point, we will activate the delay phase of our plan. Delay is about slowing the spread, lowering the peak impact of the disease, and pushing it away from the winter season. We are mindful of scientific advice that reacting too early or overreacting carries its own risks, so, subject to the primary goal of keeping people safe, we will seek to minimise social and economic disruption.
The third part of the plan is research. Research has been ongoing since we first identified covid-19, and I pay tribute to the scientists at Public Health England who were among the first in the world to sequence its genome. Research is not just about the development of a vaccine, which we are actively pursuing but which will be many months away at the earliest. It is also about understanding what actions will lessen the impact of the coronavirus, including what drugs and treatments—existing and new—will help those who are already sick.
The fourth phase is mitigate. We will move to this phase if the virus becomes established in the UK population. At that point it would be impossible to prevent widespread transmission, so the emphasis will be on caring for those who are most seriously ill, and keeping essential services running at a time when large parts of the workforce may be off sick. Our plans include not just the most likely case, but the reasonable worst case.
We will identify and support the most vulnerable. If necessary, we will take some of the actions set out in today’s plan to reduce the impact of absentees and to lessen the impact on our economy and supply chains. We prepare for the worst and work for the best. We commit to ensuring that the agencies responsible for tackling this outbreak are properly resourced and have the people, equipment and medicines that they need, and that any new laws that they need are brought forward as and when required.
This is a national effort. We need everyone to listen to and act on the official medical advice. We need employers to prioritise the welfare of their staff. And the single most important thing that everyone can do to help—I make no apologies for repeating this—is to use tissues when they cough or sneeze, and to wash their hands more often. That is in their interest, their families’ interest and the national interest.
We will get through this, and everyone has a part to play. I commend this statement to the House.
Jonathan Ashworth (Leicester South) (Lab/Co-op)
May I apologise to you, Mr Speaker, and to the House for being a few minutes late? I had a problem with my printer when I was trying to print the Secretary of State’s statement. I thank him for advance sight of the statement, and, indeed, for advance sight of the action plan this morning. Let me also record my thanks for the briefing that the Leader of the Opposition and I received yesterday from departmental officials, the chief medical officer and the Government Chief Scientific Adviser. I believe that the chief medical officer will brief parliamentarians later today, and I think that that is a very welcome initiative.
The Government’s strategy to contain then delay, research and then mitigate has our endorsement, but may I ask the Secretary of State for some specific clarifications? The first relates to containment and self-isolation. The Prime Minister said today—as, indeed, the Secretary of State has said before—that workers who self-isolate are considered to be on sick leave. Can the Secretary of State confirm that those who need to self-isolate will not need to visit a GP to obtain a sick note, given that the Government’s advice is not to visit a GP? As he will know, 2 million workers on low pay or insecure contracts in the gig economy do not even qualify for statutory sick pay. He will also know that those who are receiving benefits are often asked to physically attend appointments. Can he guarantee that no financial sanction will be imposed if they are asked to self-isolate?
Does the Secretary of State accept that people should not be forced to make a choice between their health and avoiding financial hardship? We are told that he is considering emergency legislation. Will he introduce legislation to remove the barriers to self-isolation so that all workers can receive the sick pay that they deserve? That is in the interests of public health. If he introduces such legislation, we will help him to get it on to the statute book quickly. He could do it this week or he could do it next week, and we will support him. Let us give all workers the security that they deserve, so that they do not have to put their health ahead of their financial interests or vice versa.
More broadly on the NHS and social care, I want to look at the response of the NHS and the support that it will be given through the containment and mitigation phases. We know that around 80% of critical care beds were occupied last week. We know that the NHS is short of 100,000 staff, and we also know that staff working in the NHS, particularly those on the frontline such as GPs, need to be protected as well. Even if we take at face value the Government’s insistence that they have provided the NHS with the resources to deliver the commitments of the long-term plan—we obviously disagree on this, but that is a debate for another time—we can surely all accept that covid-19 is going to lead to increased demand on trusts and the wider NHS. Every trust that sends a sample for testing has to pay for it to be couriered. Trusts are likely to take on more agency staff. If retired staff are encouraged to return to practice, the wage bill will increase. By the way, on retired staff, can the Secretary of State reassure us that protections and oversight will be in place, particularly around returning staff who, as we understand it, will not need to go through a revalidation process for their licence?
The Government have recognised that, as we move into the mitigation phase, non-urgent care may be delayed. I assume that means that trusts will be looking at cancelling elective surgery, which will result in waiting lists growing. Again, this will impact on trusts’ finances. Will the Government provide an emergency funding increase for the NHS resource budget to support the NHS through this next challenging period? Directors of public health still do not know their public health allocations for the next financial year, which starts next month. This means that directors of public health could be cutting the nurse workloads they are responsible for commissioning at a time when those very nurses will be needed to deal with covid-19 cases. Will the right hon. Gentleman announce the public health allocations as a matter of urgency?
On social care, we know that many who are at risk from the virus are the elderly and those with chronic conditions. Social care is responsible for and has a duty of care to many of the people who are most vulnerable to the outbreak. What advice does the Secretary of State have for social care providers, and will extra resources be announced for social care services? On the emergency powers that he has briefed about, will he sit down with us and other Opposition parties to discuss the contents of that legislation?
On the global efforts to contain the virus, we know that disease knows no borders. We cannot build a wall or an iron curtain around these islands. Why, then, are the Government apparently walking away from the EU early warning and response system, which plays such a vital role in pandemic preparations? We have been led to believe that No. 10 has overruled the Secretary of State on this. Also, to contain the virus internationally, countries with weaker health systems need to be supported as well, otherwise, we will not contain the virus. Can the Secretary of State update us on what help he is offering to the World Health Organisation on that front?
This is a serious time. Our constituents will be concerned, and many will be frightened. We will raise our concerns responsibly, but we offer to work constructively with the Government, because the public health interest and the safety of our constituents must always come first.
Matt Hancock
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for the constructive approach he has taken from the start, and I will seek to address all the questions that he has raised. His first point was about statutory sick pay. For those who need to self-isolate for medical reasons to protect others, that counts as being off sick. They do not need to go to a GP, because there is a seven-day allowance for self-declaration. I hope that that addresses that point directly—[Interruption.] We keep all matters on this under review because, broadly, I agree with him on the principle that he has set out. On the NHS, he asked about resources. We have already increased resources to the NHS and we stand ready to do so if that is necessary.
The hon. Gentleman asked about doctors and revalidation. In legislation, we are proposing to make revalidation simpler. We will bring forward those measures, and of course we will engage with the Opposition on the potential measures as and when that is necessary.
On public health allocations, we have already been clear that the public health grant is going up in aggregate. As my right hon. Friend the Communities Secretary set out last week, we have seen a 4.4% real-terms increase in local authority budgets this year, and the social care budget is going up by £1 billion. I think that that takes into account the issues that the hon. Gentleman raised.
The hon. Gentleman also raised engagement with the World Health Organisation We have supported the WHO with extra funding. On engaging with the EU, I have regular engagement with colleagues from across Europe, and some of the reports I have seen in the newspapers are not accurate, because the questions of engagement with the EU on matters of health security are a matter for the negotiations, as set out on Thursday in the negotiations document.
Jeremy Hunt (South West Surrey) (Con)
I would like to commend the Health Secretary for the calm way in which he has been dealing with this crisis and for his very clear public messaging. He called me last Friday to tell me that there had been a coronavirus outbreak in my constituency. I would like to thank the staff at the Haslemere health centre for their extraordinary commitment in working over the weekend so that the health centre could be open again on Monday morning. This shows, however, that some of the people at greatest risk are our frontline health workers. One study in China showed that 7% of the people who got the virus in Wuhan were health workers. Will the Health Secretary confirm whether hospitals, GP surgeries, care homes and nursing homes have enough face masks, gloves and hand gel, and will he outline any other measures he is taking to ensure that NHS staff are kept safe?
Matt Hancock
My right hon. Friend raises an incredibly important point, and the answer to the question is yes. We are putting out further advice and guidance to the health system, to the NHS, to GPs and to hospitals today. That will go out from Keith Willett in the NHS.
On the point about the kit needed to keep health workers safe: yes, we are putting in place the actions to ensure that it is available at the right moment when it is needed. There are some GP surgeries that do not have that equipment yet, but we are putting in place the actions needed to ensure that they have it as and when it is needed. As my right hon. Friend knows, the number of cases right now is relatively small. It is 51, as of 9 o’clock this morning. The protective equipment is there, so that for each of these cases we can get right on to them, but if the virus becomes more widespread, of course more and more NHS settings right across the country are going to need that sort of equipment.
Dr Philippa Whitford (Central Ayrshire) (SNP)
I welcome the plan, although I have to say that I would have welcomed receiving the briefing yesterday that the shadow Secretary of State mentioned, which I did not receive. The plan lays out a reasonable worst case scenario, and it is clear about the three time phases. Research is of course ongoing, but this will help to prepare the public for decisions that may have to be made down the line. At the moment, containment is based on self-isolation of cases, contacts and those who have travelled to risk areas, but with the spread elsewhere in the world, it is becoming harder to define risk areas. With regard to north Italy, the chief medical officer talked about those with underlying conditions perhaps interpreting the advice more stringently and not travelling, so will the Government either discuss with insurance companies or even consider legislation to make underlying conditions an acceptable reason to cancel a holiday, so that people can get their money back rather than putting themselves at risk?
I agree with the Secretary of State regarding asymptomatic workers and sick pay, but there are staff who have no sick pay in their contract, and some protection has to be given to them. He referred to the seven-day period for self-certification, but isolation is for 14 days, and we do not want people turning up at their GP surgery halfway through that period. Can that be looked at? One issue that I have come across is an employer telling a member of staff returning from a holiday in Tenerife that they should not come to work for two weeks, but the employer does not wish to pay them for that period. We need to look at that, even if it is not health advice but an employer stipulation expecting people to have no income.
As we move into delay, we see that children are not particularly vulnerable to catching this. However, as with other coronaviruses, they may well spread it. Do we have evidence for how much they contribute to transmission, as that will affect decisions on school closures?
What preparations are being made for the long haul? Previous coronavirus outbreaks have lasted not just for a few months but for over a year, so we could be dealing with this next winter. If we move into mitigation, the situation will reverse and it will be about protecting the vulnerable and early discharge to home care. That might require the changing of staff from hospitals and care homes to work in the community, so are the Government in negotiations on such matters as legal responsibility and liability?
The Secretary of State quite rightly talked about what the public should be doing, but should we not already be thinking about stopping shaking hands and about working from home, if possible, without an economic impact? That would also help the climate emergency. Containment moves into delay without a border, so should we not be thinking about trying to get ahead of the curve?
Matt Hancock
We have been briefing colleagues as much as possible. Clearly, the CMOs’ time is incredibly valuable at the moment. We have worked with the Scottish Government on this plan; it was signed off by both the First Minister and the CMO for Scotland. In fact, it has been developed with the Scottish Government, the Welsh Government and the Government of Northern Ireland, so ultimately it is a multi-party plan.
The hon. Lady made the point about seven-day certification. That is indeed the sort of reason why we are holding this area under review and there is work ongoing, including on the points she has raised. She also asked about shaking hands. The medical advice is that the impact of shaking hands is negligible; what really matters is washing hands. Our public health advice will remain clear and based on the science—what matters, more than anything else, is that people wash their hands for 20 seconds or more, using soap and preferably hot water. That is the core of the public health advice.
The hon. Lady mentioned working from home. There is an incredibly important point about timing written into the plan. There are actions that we may need to take in future that it would not be appropriate to take now. We are not advising people to work from home now, but we do not rule out doing so in future if that might be more effective clinically, given the disruption it could cause.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr Speaker
Order. I will let this statement run for about an hour, so let us help each other.
Dr Luke Evans (Bosworth) (Con)
With regard to the impact that coronavirus can have, the Secretary of State is right to balance the difference of health and the economy and I welcome his caution in that regard. I want to raise a point about small businesses. If coronavirus does become a more significant problem, are the Government considering making emergency loans available to otherwise good businesses? If not, will he ask other Departments whether they might consider that?
Matt Hancock
We are considering that; it is being led by the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, in conjunction with the Treasury. The Chancellor will be making a statement today, ahead of the Budget on 11 March.
Rosie Cooper (West Lancashire) (Lab)
The Secretary of State will know that there is a system whereby those who are immunosuppressed are not required to sit in crowded waiting rooms in hospital or A&E. That is in normal conditions, never mind the situation with covid-19. Yesterday evening, I attended Aintree Hospital with a patient who had just finished her first round of chemotherapy. Despite the chemo-aware system, she was told by the receptionist to sit in a very crowded waiting room, for a five-hour wait, because there was nowhere else to go. I stood in a corridor, between the front door and some sliding doors, to ensure that she was not subjected to that. How will the Secretary of State ensure that frontline staff who are not necessarily clinicians understand the increased danger to those individuals? Does each A&E and each hospital have a place where those people could wait safely? This is not good enough.
Matt Hancock
The answer is yes. Each A&E now has a pod in front of it, which we have funded since the outbreak of the virus, so that suspected cases do not need to go into the main A&E. That is to address exactly the sorts of problems that the hon. Lady raises.
Sir Graham Brady (Altrincham and Sale West) (Con)
Does contingency planning include steps to secure additional capacity in private hospitals, which often would lend themselves better to isolation of infectious patients?
Matt Hancock
The question of how we deliver and who delivers NHS services is a matter for the NHS, and making sure that we use all the health facilities available is of course something that the NHS is considering.
Ms Angela Eagle (Wallasey) (Lab)
Does the Secretary of State agree that, in order for self-isolation to work, no individual, whatever their circumstances, should be out of pocket for doing the right thing? As my hon. Friend the Member for Leicester South (Jonathan Ashworth) said, currently, millions of people who work in the gig economy and do not qualify for sick pay would be out of pocket for doing the right thing. Does the Secretary of State agree that solving this problem and giving people the confidence that they need to do the right thing by self-isolating is one of the most important things that he can do in the next few days, to ensure that we can continue with containment?
Matt Hancock
There is a huge number of things that we need to do in the next few days and, as I have said, this area is under review.
Caroline Nokes (Romsey and Southampton North) (Con)
Across Government, in different Departments, there are many people with healthcare experience and professionalism. For example, the Department for Work and Pensions has 3,000 trained professionals working on assessments. What conversations is my right hon. Friend having with other Secretaries of State to understand whether there could be access to those individuals so that they too could be on the frontline?
Layla Moran (Oxford West and Abingdon) (LD)
Last week I asked the Secretary of State about the preparedness of NHS 111. In answer to a written question, the Department said that it does not have the numbers for current staff. I understand that Dudley call centre alone is asking to recruit 150 new call handlers. How many call handlers are we looking for in addition to the current staffing levels for NHS 111, and when does he expect them to be fully trained and online?
Matt Hancock
We have increased the number by 500 already, and there are plans for more to come, as and when that becomes necessary.
Dr Caroline Johnson (Sleaford and North Hykeham) (Con)
An increasing number of people are self-isolating, but they still require routine care. Are GPs providing that routine care, and what advice is being given to GPs on whether they should wear masks, and whether they should visit a patient at home or get them to come to the surgery and so on?
Matt Hancock
We do not want people who suspect they have coronavirus to go to their GP; we want them to do this via NHS 111. Further to my earlier point about being able to self-validate for sick pay for seven days, they can of course then do that by phone and get an email confirmation, should they need to, to extend that to the full 14 days. Of course, as well as tackling coronavirus, the NHS must do business as usual. We are increasing the amount that people can do over the phone, Skype and other forms of telemedicine. That could be increasingly important if there is widespread concern about communicable diseases.
Judith Cummins (Bradford South) (Lab)
What steps is the Secretary of State taking to ensure continuity of social care, both in care homes and for care given at home, given the problems and workforce implications arising from coronavirus?
Matt Hancock
We have a huge amount of work under way, including looking at what we can do to ensure that people can get support in care homes. It is not just about the staff, of course; elderly people in care homes are, according to the data, among those most vulnerable to the disease. The care home element of our plan is incredibly important and we will be providing more details in the coming days.
Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells) (Con)
It is very important that both the resolution and the management of the crisis are based on the best possible science, and I join the Secretary of State’s tribute to the UK scientists, who are among the most experienced and best qualified in the world. Have UK scientists been part of the World Health Organisation teams deployed to Iran and China? Does the Government’s chief scientific adviser attend the Cobra meetings? Can the Secretary of State update me on the question, about which I wrote to him on Thursday, of when we can expect a bedside test to be deployed in this country and made available around the world?
Matt Hancock
We are, of course, involved in the World Health Organisation missions and in some direct bilateral missions. I have repeatedly signed off on support for more UK experts to go out around the world. The chief scientific adviser is, of course, at all the Cobra meetings on this, whether they are chaired by me or by the Prime Minister.
My right hon. Friend’s point on the bedside test is incredibly important. We are currently engaged with just over a dozen companies to try to come up with a bedside test, instead of having to take a swab from the back of your throat, Mr Speaker—should you have the misfortune to fall ill—having it sent away and brought back. Working with UK companies to get a bedside test that can be done on the premises is an incredibly important part of the diagnostic mission surrounding this disease.
Ruth Cadbury (Brentford and Isleworth) (Lab)
Will staff in community settings be issued with protective hazmat suits and masks?
Matt Hancock
We have extensive stockpiles of personal protective equipment. We are not distributing that at this moment because we have to distribute it at the right time. Each individual case can be dealt with at the moment, because they are relatively few, by those who are expert in using that kit. Of course community staff, as well as primary care staff and hospital staff, will be involved in the distribution of that equipment as and when appropriate.
Robert Largan (High Peak) (Con)
Last week there was a confirmed coronavirus case in Buxton, which led to the temporary closure of a medical centre and a school. Unfortunately, several national newspapers inaccurately reported that Buxton was a town on lockdown. Several local hotels have now reported booking cancellations as a result. Does the Secretary of State agree that the situation calls for responsible journalism and calm reporting of the facts? Will he join me in encouraging people to visit Buxton, Britain’s best spa town?
Matt Hancock
Yes. I do not have to check with the chief medical officer before telling you, Mr Speaker, that I love going to Buxton, which is a great place to visit. My hon. Friend makes a serious point. As I said in my statement, there is scientific advice against moving too soon or overreacting, as there is against moving too slowly or not reacting strongly enough. We need to take the measures that are necessary to protect the public.
On taking measures that do not protect the public, the advice is that all of us in a position of responsibility whose communications are heard widely, whether we are Members of this House or members of the media, have a duty of responsibility, because how this is communicated will have a direct impact on how well we as a country cope with this outbreak.
Nick Smith (Blaenau Gwent) (Lab)
Hospital cleaners and porters keep us safe, so will the Government increase SSP to full pay for all staff forced to self-isolate? Low-paid workers in our NHS should not be financially penalised for doing the right thing.
Matt Hancock
As I said, we are keeping the rules on SSP under review. As we directly employ people in the NHS, I am having a conversation about it with the chief executive of the NHS.
Mr Mark Harper (Forest of Dean) (Con)
The Secretary of State will know there are two confirmed cases in Gloucestershire, and I put on record my thanks to the public health professionals who have dealt with those cases in a professional, calm and considered manner.
My specific question is about the action the Department for Work and Pensions will take for those members of the public who, whether because of business downturn or because of self-isolation, have to access the benefits system. Will frontline DWP staff and systems accommodate the fact that self-isolation, as the Secretary of State says, should be treated as an illness and that no inappropriate sanctions should be applied?
Matt Hancock
We are absolutely clear that that is the rule, and I frequently talk to the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions about this matter.
Matt Rodda (Reading East) (Lab)
Following the outbreak at Willow Bank Infant School, will the Secretary of State update the House on the work he is undertaking with the Department for Education, local authorities and schools to help contain the outbreak?
Matt Hancock
The broader point is that it is very important that schools do not close if they are not advised to close. Again, it is about following the medical advice. If there is no epidemiological reason to close, a school should not be closing.
As of 11 am today, I understand that 10 schools are closed. Seven of the 14 schools that were reported yesterday as having closed are now open, so this is a dynamic situation. The DFE is doing a fantastic job, and I pay tribute to my right hon. Friend the Minister for School Standards, who has been working night and day to make sure that, where possible, children are at school.
Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet and Rothwell) (Con)
My right hon. Friend will recall that I raised the issue of motorway service stations a couple of weeks ago. Coming down this week, I still did not see any signage about the health precautions that can be taken. May I urge him to investigate whether he can buy up advertising space in lavatory areas to make sure the message is clear so that people understand the hygiene steps to take?
Matt Hancock
That is an important point. We are launching an enhanced communications programme tomorrow, and I will check with my team whether it includes adverts in motorway service stations.
Liz Saville Roberts (Dwyfor Meirionnydd) (PC)
Rural Wales has a high percentage of self-employed people, and data from the Office for National Statistics suggests that 23% of households in Gwynedd are self-employed, compared with a Welsh average of 16%. What provisions have the four Governments made to assure self-employed people that they will be compensated for lost income arising from the covid-19 outbreak?
Matt Hancock
I am working with both the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and the Welsh Government, who have played their part with great care and responsibility in rising to this challenge.
Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon) (Con)
I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement and commend him for his handling of this outbreak. The public health advice has been absolutely clear during the contain phase. As we move into the delay and mitigate phases, will he make sure the advice on social distancing and longer isolation periods, particularly for vulnerable groups, is as fast and has the same clarity?
Matt Hancock
Yes. We are upgrading the communications activities tomorrow but, should we move into the mitigate phase, the communications will clearly need to be different and will need to be upgraded yet again.
Meg Hillier (Hackney South and Shoreditch) (Lab/Co-op)
We have known for years that people on outsourced contracts do not have access to sick pay. The coronavirus is now throwing up that problem for the wider community, yet we heard the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy talk about people going on to universal credit—he does not live in the real world if he thinks that is possible within three days—and the Secretary of State for Health and Social Care talk today about seven days’ isolation and, when pressed, about ringing the GP. Can he give very clear advice to those who have to choose between working and eating, so that we make sure they do not go to work when they are ill?
Matt Hancock
I have been absolutely clear about the legal position, and I have said that we are keeping the area under review.
Craig Mackinlay (South Thanet) (Con)
As cases escalate, and we have to assume they probably will, even a well-prepared NHS will become stretched, with health professionals likely to be affected. Self-help will become important, and we are already seeing a national shortage of hand-sanitising gel. Will my right hon. Friend work with the manufacturers to ensure basic products such as paracetamol, ibuprofen and cough medicines remain widely available on the high street?
Matt Hancock
My hon. Friend is completely right and, in fact, our no-deal planning and our no-deal stockpiles are playing an important part in making sure we are fully prepared and ready.
Hilary Benn (Leeds Central) (Lab)
On when to move to the delay phase, the Secretary of State said that he was
“mindful of scientific advice that reacting too early…carries its own risks”.
Could he set out for the House what those risks are?
Matt Hancock
I would highlight two. The first is that there is an economic and social impact of disruption; if an action has no medical benefit, there is no need for that disruption. The second is a medical risk. Behavioural science and experience from previous similar outbreaks shows that, if we ask people too early to do things that are disruptive to their normal life, they may try to return to normal earlier than they otherwise would. At the moment, the number of cases is relatively small. If we go into the reasonable worst-case scenario, it will rise sharply and be high for a number of weeks. We need to keep people doing the right, responsible thing over a period of weeks and, if we ask them to move too soon, they may question whether that advice was the right advice.
Steve Brine (Winchester) (Con)
Experience here suggests that these outbreaks are about cool heads and timing, and I suggest that the Secretary of State, his chief medical officer and his Public Health Minister have been exemplary in both those things. Does he agree that the media have a responsibility in this regard? You do not release everything in the locker at once. That is not about the Government being slow to this; it is about the Government having a plan. What they have set out today is a clear, strategic and staged plan to do what is needed, when it is needed, in the national interest.
Matt Hancock
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for what he says. We are trying to take exactly the approach that he sets out. It builds on my answer to the right hon. Member for Leeds Central (Hilary Benn) on getting the timing right as well as the decisions on the correct actions to take. We need to get both right. We will be guided by the science in supporting the public through what will be a difficult time.
Yvette Cooper (Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford) (Lab)
The Health Secretary will know that many people are caring for elderly relatives, sometimes just popping in every day to make sure they are fed or to get them up in the morning. If those people end up having to self- isolate or getting ill, what support will there be for them —they may not be getting any sick pay—and for the elderly relatives who depend on some urgent support and may not have any other relatives nearby to provide it?
Matt Hancock
We are very concerned about this issue. We will address precisely the issue that the right hon. Member raises in the communication that I indicated we will publish soon to social care providers. This is an important and difficult consideration for what we do in a reasonable worst-case scenario. Of course, all the time, we are working to avoid that scenario. One area that has been highlighted in public is making it much easier to onboard volunteers, but they are not the only part of the answer to this problem.
Craig Whittaker (Calder Valley) (Con)
GAMA Healthcare in my constituency is playing a vital role in China as part of a bundled approach to infection control of covid-19. Adrian Fellows, a scientist from GAMA, says that washing hands is vital, but his concern is that every handwash is being promoted as an effective intervention, even those that are cosmetic-based, and supermarket sanitisers without a log 4 reduction are running the risk of giving a false sense of security. Will my right hon. Friend ensure that Government advice on hand washing is thorough, so that people do not run that risk of having a false sense of security?
Matt Hancock
I will look into our guidance on the nature of hand sanitisers and make sure that it takes into account the very best scientific advice. There is a broader point here, which is that although sanitising one’s hands with hand sanitiser is good, it is not nearly as good as washing one’s hands for 20 seconds with soap and, preferably, in hot water. That is the best thing to deal with the virus.
Lloyd Russell-Moyle (Brighton, Kemptown) (Lab/Co-op)
I thank the chief medical officer for ringing me when we had cases earlier in the month in the city; it was very helpful advice. The advice that the Secretary of State has just given is that we need to wash our hands. So will the Government make moves to ensure that, when you enter any building in this country, there is a place for you to wash your hands? I am not just talking about advice; can we introduce health and safety guidelines to put a requirement on every employer, every restaurant and so on? If we are going to take this seriously, we need to up our game. Will the Government commit to that now?
Matt Hancock
I will look into the extent to which that can be done. Many public buildings do have sinks available. At the core of our response to the problem, which the hon. Gentleman reasonably raises, is getting the communications right, so that people can use existing sinks and soap to do what I know he wishes them to do.
Anthony Mangnall (Totnes) (Con)
I thank the Secretary of State and his team for keeping me informed yesterday of the two local confirmed cases of covid-19, but a number of schools decided to close their doors as a precaution. What message does he have for those schools and others across the communities as to how to deal with this issue?
Matt Hancock
I commend my hon. Friend for the responsible and calm way in which he has responded to the news in his constituency. The message to schools is clear: if you do not have both a positive case and the advice from Public Health England to close, you should not close. The Minister for School Standards, who is sitting next to me, reiterates that message. We have a hotline that schools can call to get that advice from Public Health England, and schools that close without the advice from PHE are contacted by the regional schools commissioner, who explains to them the position.
Daisy Cooper (St Albans) (LD)
There are now four confirmed cases of covid-19 in Hertfordshire, yet Hertfordshire has an unfunded burden in next year’s financial budget of £2.8 million from the cost of the pay uplift for nurses and health visitors under the “Agenda for Change” programme. I am told that potentially up to 30 directors of public health across this country are poised to have to cancel contracts and make school nurses and health visitors redundant if this money is not confirmed. With less than a month until the next financial year, can the Government confirm today, or within the next 24 hours, that the money for the “Agenda for Change” pay uplifts will be made available?
Matt Hancock
We have increased the public health grant and we have increased local authority spending power by 4.4% in real terms next year, which of course comes in at the start of April.
Alan Mak (Havant) (Con)
My constituency includes a number of semi-rural, coastal and isolated communities, where information on as local a basis as possible will be needed, not just the national picture. Can my right hon. Friend provide me with the relevant departmental and Public Health England contacts so that I can obtain this information in real time?
Emma Hardy (Kingston upon Hull West and Hessle) (Lab)
Can the Secretary of State confirm that claimants will not face benefit sanctions if they miss appointments because they are choosing to self-isolate?
Robert Halfon (Harlow) (Con)
Will my right hon. Friend thank the Princess Alexandra Hospital in Harlow for dealing with a case and for all the work it does? May I bring him back to the issue of workers? In Harlow, at least 8,000 people are working in retail, food, customer service, front-of house, leisure, transport and accommodation services. Those people, who are often on lower pay, could lose their wages, especially if restaurants cut the number of staff, for one reason or another, in the event of a serious outbreak. Will the Government consider setting up an insurance scheme if things get much worse to ensure that individuals such as the workers I have mentioned do not lose their incomes?
Matt Hancock
As I have said several times, we are keeping this area under review. We are also looking into what we can do to support successful businesses that might have a short-term negative impact from some of the disruptions that have come with, and could come further with, coronavirus.
Alex Norris (Nottingham North) (Lab/Co-op)
Sick pay and statutory sick pay can be complex, but there is one simple truth within that system: the poorer someone is, the poorer their protections are. Those very worst-off at work want clarity from us that doing the right thing and following the Secretary of State’s guidance will not put them at a detriment. Nothing in the public conversation and, frankly, nothing we have heard today gives me confidence to say that to people in my community, so will he take this opportunity to say, from the Dispatch Box, that not one single person in this country who is following his advice will suffer a detriment to their terms and conditions?
Matt Hancock
I have already made it clear that we have a robust statutory sick pay system in this country, that self-isolation counts as illness within that system and that we are keeping the system under review. So people can have confidence that, if they are asked to self-isolate, that is exactly what they should do.
Laura Trott (Sevenoaks) (Con)
Sadly, it is healthcare professionals who are likely to be most exposed to the virus. What steps is the Secretary of State taking to make sure that we have sufficient numbers of healthcare professionals at work to deal with this crisis?
Matt Hancock
That is an incredibly important issue, not least because of the impact of the virus directly on healthcare workers in other jurisdictions—we have seen the impact here, too. We have a broad programme, led by the NHS, to make sure that we protect healthcare workers—not only clinicians but the non-clinicians mentioned by the hon. Member for St Albans (Daisy Cooper)—and have as much support in the NHS as possible, including from, for instance, recently retired people, and from volunteers, as mentioned earlier. If the virus becomes widespread, it will be all hands to the pump in the NHS, as with social care. We have extensive planning under way to make sure that the NHS can respond.
Christian Matheson (City of Chester) (Lab)
I have been contacted by a constituent who is a consultant in emergency medicine at the Countess of Chester Hospital, which the Secretary of State knows well. My constituent has expressed concern about the use of nebulisers for the delivery of medicines for respiratory illnesses, on the basis that there is evidence that they might enhance the spread of airborne viruses in a confined space. I have been in touch with Public Health England about the issue, and there is some debate as to whether it agrees with my constituent, but he has provided evidence from the 2003 SARS outbreak that demonstrates that his fears may be upheld. It is a technical point, but will the Secretary look into it and get his officials to check it out?
Matt Hancock
Yes, of course. I would not dare to pronounce on the science and medicine behind that, but I can ensure that the experts, including the deputy chief medical officer, who is an expert in these things and is in the Box, will respond.
Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire) (Con)
I commend the Secretary of State for the constructive way in which he has worked with the other Health Ministers in the devolved Administrations to get this plan ready for today, but may I remind him of the importance of continuing this approach as the situation unfolds in the days and weeks ahead, to ensure that there is a genuine, joined-up, UK-wide strategy to combat coronavirus?
Matt Hancock
Yes—I would say that this is an example of the devolved Governments and the UK Government working well together. The best example of that is the four chief medical officers. As my right hon. Friend well knows from his time as a Secretary of State, each devolved nation has its own CMO, and the forum of the four of them provides an extremely useful place to debate and then to agree, so that we can have a UK-wide answer even though some areas, such as NHS delivery, are devolved.
Caroline Lucas (Brighton, Pavilion) (Green)
In times of crisis, fear can foster discrimination. There is serious concern about reports of racism being linked to the coronavirus outbreak, with people being singled out and abused simply because of east Asian appearance, and some children being bullied. Does the Secretary of State agree that inaccurate terms such as “Wuhan coronavirus” should be avoided because they sadly reinforce racist views? Will he take steps to ensure that Government communications always use medically accurate terms? Will he ensure that the Cabinet acts to ensure that everything possible is done to stop the denigration and blaming of people in relation to this outbreak?
Andrew Bowie (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (Con)
I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement. Following on from the question by my right hon. Friend the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire (Stephen Crabb) about working with the devolved Administrations, will my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State confirm that although the delivery is devolved, this is a whole-UK plan? There should be no confusion in any of the devolved areas of the United Kingdom: this is a UK-wide plan and the information published today is applicable to and the same for every part of the United Kingdom.
Matt Hancock
That is right; in fact, the document is badged with the emblems of the four nations. There are of course elements of it that are technically different in terms of delivery, but they are set out in the plan.
If I may take a step back, the deputy chief medical officer has already got a note to me to answer the question from the hon. Member for City of Chester (Christian Matheson). The expert committee NERVTAG —the new and emerging respiratory virus threats advisory group—has looked at the issue of nebulisers and does not consider their use an infection-prone procedure.
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
Unless something has changed overnight, the 111 service is not available in most of Wales. Most people in Wales would be far better advised to ring 0845 46 47, which is the NHS Direct Wales telephone number. My bigger anxiety is that so far, despite all the good things he has done, the Secretary of State has still not been able to answer the central question of people on zero-hours contracts. They include a large number of my constituents, who would want to do the right thing but, according to what he has said so far, would be financially out of pocket because there is no means of recompensing them. Surely we must put that right; otherwise, we have a massive hole in the plan.
Matt Hancock
As I have said many times, we have a robust SSP system and we keep it under review. On the hon. Gentleman’s point about 111, we have changed the system so that if someone dials 111 from Wales, they are automatically redirected to the NHS Direct number in Wales.
Richard Graham (Gloucester) (Con)
I welcome the Secretary of State’s clarification that schools should not close unless they absolutely have to—not least because if parents are having to look after their children, there may be fewer nurses and doctors who can get to hospitals. My right hon. Friend knows that the average age of hospital volunteers—including my fellow workers at the Gloucestershire Royal Hospital—is in the range that could be at risk of this virus, and they are often receptionists, so will he consider asking the NHS to give guidance to hospitals on whether such people should be on the frontline, with people still coming to hospitals thinking that the best thing to do is to be checked?
Matt Hancock
In the first instance, the best thing to do if you think you have coronavirus is not to go to a hospital or GP surgery but to ring 111, wherever you are in the UK. My hon. Friend is quite right on the other point he made.
Alison Thewliss (Glasgow Central) (SNP)
I am strongly in favour of getting the habitually clarty to wash their hands, so I am glad that the Secretary of State is reinforcing that message. May I ask him specifically about the advice to Department for Work and Pensions decision makers? What advice has been circulated within the DWP, and can all elected Members get a copy of it, just in case any of our constituents find that that advice is not being followed through?
Matt Hancock
I will take that issue up with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions.
Paul Holmes (Eastleigh) (Con)
I thank the Secretary of State for his statement. I am sure he would agree that as the virus possibly spreads, members of the public will be worried about what they should and should not be doing, so will he confirm how he will specifically communicate with members of the public to prevent panic, particularly if we have to restrict public meetings and the use of public transport?
Matt Hancock
That is a very good question and it is important that we get that right. One reason why we have set out this plan, which includes measures that we hope not to take and may not take but are prepared to take if necessary, is that, should those measures be taken, it will not be a surprise to people—they are clearly part of a plan. I do understand—of course I do—that people are worried about this, and I also understand that some of the things we are proposing, and some that other countries are doing, are not the sort of things that a Government in a free country normally does. That is why we have taken this approach. It is quite unusual in Government to set out a plan of things that we might do; we normally set out what we are going to do. The reason we have done so is precisely in response to the concern that my hon. Friend wisely raises. We want to do everything we can to reassure people, while not over-reassuring and instead being totally transparent about our frank assessment, based on the science, of the situation that the country is in and what we can best do to get ourselves best through this and fight this disease.
Dame Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab)
For the trusts that host regional infectious diseases units, will the Secretary of State say what additional emergency money is going into them now and whether there are plans to extend those units to increase bed capacity?
Matt Hancock
We do have plans to be able to ramp up the bed capacity that can be used to deal with coronavirus patients, and, as I said earlier, we have already extended funding to trusts and are willing to consider that further if necessary.
James Wild (North West Norfolk) (Con)
People are understandably concerned, and I have been contacted by some of my constituents about potential treatments, including vitamin therapy, that are appearing on the internet. Will my right hon. Friend send a clear message from the Chamber that it is the NHS and the Government who will provide the authoritative advice on medical treatments? Will he work with social media companies to remove any misleading content?
Matt Hancock
Yes, and that is a very important point. Fake news in response to a virus like this can be dangerous and damaging to health and it should be taken down. I am working with the social media companies—I spoke to the main social media companies yesterday—and the biggest of them are playing a very responsible role. If someone searches on Google, the top two sites that come up for coronavirus are from the World Health Organisation, and the NHS is third. Google is promoting good, high-quality, medically informed advice, and the other social media platforms—the major ones with which we are working—are also taking this very seriously.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
Does the Secretary of State agree that the key drivers of aggregate transmission are, first, the level of movement and, secondly, the level of assembly? Will he therefore take this opportunity to advise elderly people in particular, who are more at risk, that they would be well advised to restrict their movements—perhaps go to the shops once a week instead of twice—and to work as and when they can in a sustainable way from home rather than at work? Does he also agree that we should, if at all possible, avoid big assemblies of people as transmission rates are higher there? If not, we will end up having to enforce roadblocks and confinement much more quickly than otherwise.
Matt Hancock
No, we will be advised by the science. The point that has been raised many times is that timing is really important. There are downsides in terms of the destruction and medical downsides in terms of controlling the spread of this virus if things are done too soon. I am very happy to arrange a briefing for the hon. Gentleman —a briefing is available with the chief medical officer at 4.15 pm today for anybody who wants a private briefing—and to take him through some of that science.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
I thank the Minister for his diligence. There are some 11.8 million elderly people, which is 18% of the population, and some 4 million diabetics, which is 6% of the population. I declare an interest as one of those. Those who have had the flu jab to protect them from the flu may feel that they are okay. Will the Minister give guidance to this section of people—those with chronic diseases and the elderly who have had the flu jab?
Matt Hancock
Yes, we are paying particular attention to vulnerable people—the elderly and those with other health conditions that may make them either more susceptible or more at risk should they get this virus—and there will be additional advice in due course, guided by science, as all of us should be in tackling this disease.
Vicky Foxcroft (Lewisham, Deptford) (Lab)
The Secretary of State has been asked about this several times, and I am slightly worried that he just does not get it. Some working people do not get sick pay. We really need to know what his plans are for them.
Matt Hancock
As I have said, I have provided answers to that question a number of times, including that we are keeping this under review, and that the sick pay system is robust. I look forward to answering more questions in the same way. I cannot give a different answer to the one I have given to the same question when it has been repeatedly asked.
Points of Order
Chris Bryant (Rhondda) (Lab)
On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker; it is further to what we have just been talking about. Would it not be a good idea if the parliamentary estate were providing leadership to the country on this issue? We have lots of toilets in this building that do not work properly, in which there is no soap, and in which it is difficult to wash our hands properly. Would it not it be a good idea if we led by example? Thousands of members of the public come in here every week and tourists come from all over the world to see this place. Could you use your good offices, Madam Deputy Speaker, not to wander around all the toilets yourself personally, but to make sure that staff understand that this is a very serious and important issue that we need to get right?
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point of order. Silver Command meetings are held every day to discuss the situation in Parliament. The House of Commons Commission will be discussing the matter at its next meeting, and Mr Speaker has held meetings with the chief medical officer. I assure the hon. Gentleman that the House authorities take this very seriously, as do the Speaker and the Commission. Any further information will be passed on as soon as it is forthcoming.
Geraint Davies (Swansea West) (Lab/Co-op)
Further to that point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. Would you like to extend that point to include introducing hand sanitisers in various places across the estate, as well as cleaning the toilets, so that people are in a position to cleanse their hands wherever they are in any part of the estate?
Madam Deputy Speaker
I thank the hon. Gentleman for that point of order. There are hand sanitisers in various places around the estate but, again, that is something that is kept under review on a daily basis.
Bills Presented
Domestic Abuse Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Secretary Priti Patel, supported by the Prime Minister, Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer, Secretary Robert Buckland, Secretary Elizabeth Truss, Secretary Robert Jenrick, the Attorney General, Victoria Atkins and Alex Chalk, presented a Bill to make provision in relation to domestic abuse; to make provision for and in connection with the establishment of a Domestic Abuse Commissioner; to prohibit cross-examination in person in family proceedings in certain circumstances; to make provision about certain violent or sexual offences, and offences involving other abusive behaviour, committed outside the United Kingdom; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time tomorrow, and to be printed (Bill 96), with explanatory notes (Bill 96-EN).
Sentencing (Women) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Daisy Cooper, supported by Sarah Olney, Christine Jardine, Layla Moran, Munira Wilson, Wendy Chamberlain, Wera Hobhouse, Rosie Duffield and Liz Saville Roberts, presented a Bill to require courts to impose community sentences on women offenders unless they have committed a serious or violent offence and pose a threat to the public; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 10 July, and to be printed (Bill 97).
School Toilets (Access During Lessons) Bill
Presentation and First Reading (Standing Order No. 57)
Layla Moran, supported by Sarah Olney, Munira Wilson, Wendy Chamberlain, Jamie Stone, Daisy Cooper, Christine Jardine, Wera Hobhouse, Caroline Lucas, and Alison Thewliss, presented a Bill to require the Secretary of State to publish guidance for state-funded schools on allowing pupil access to toilets during lessons; and for connected purposes.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 13 March, and to be printed (Bill 98).
High Speed Rail (West Midlands - Crewe) Bill
Presentation and all stages (Standing Order No. 57 and Order, 2 March)
Andrew Stephenson, supported by the Prime Minister, Mr Chancellor of the Exchequer, Secretary George Eustice, Secretary Grant Shapps, presented a Bill to make provision for a railway between a junction with Phase One of High Speed 2, near Fradley Wood in Staffordshire, and a junction with the west coast main line near Crewe in Cheshire; and for connected purposes.
Deemed to have been read the First, Second and Third time, and passed (Order, 2 March).
Rule of Law (Enforcement by Public Authorities)
Tuesday 3rd March 2020
(4 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Rule of Law (Enforcement by Public Authorities) Bill 2019-21 View all Rule of Law (Enforcement by Public Authorities) Bill 2019-21 Debates Read Hansard Text
Sir Christopher Chope (Christchurch) (Con)
I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to require public authorities to exercise their statutory powers to investigate and take enforcement action for breaches of the law; to make provision for sanctions for failing to take such action; and for connected purposes.
Adherence to the rule of law is one of the fundamental elements of the British constitution. The World Justice Project produces an annual report on the performance of countries across the world in complying with the rule of law. In the most recent report, the United Kingdom scores 80% and is 12th in the international league table. The top country scored 90%. In its working definition of the rule of law, the WJP requires that regulations are fairly and effectively implemented and enforced. This is an aspect on which the United Kingdom can do a lot better.
Recent events in Cambridge, where the police did nothing to prevent or to take action against blatant examples of criminal damage, serve as a salutary reminder of why the Bill is needed. Cambridge is but one of an increasing number of instances in which the Government, their agencies, the police and local authorities have failed or refused to take action to enforce the law. Now that we have left the European Union and are soon to be freed from the yoke of the European Court of Justice, it is a good time to take stock.
Continental justice, while paying lip-service to the rule of law, has often incorporated a significant discretionary element, which renders it vulnerable to political pressure for interference and ultimately to corruption by making some more equal than others under the law. The Bill reasserts the importance in our legal system of equality of protection under the law and of equal access to the enforcement authorities charged with investigating breaches of the law and enforcing sanctions against wrongdoers.
I can best illustrate the problem by example. Earlier this year, Mr Justice Julian Knowles, in the case of Henry Miller and the Humberside Police, ruled that despite a “hate incident” not being a crime, it was reasonable that such an incident could be logged pursuant to operational guidance adopted by the College of Policing in 2014. The Daily Telegraph has established that some 120,000 non-crime incidents have been logged in this way in the past five years, yet neither this Parliament nor the Government have given any authority to the police to deploy scarce and valuable resources on giving priority to non-crime incidents over criminal activity. In answer to a parliamentary question, the Policing Minister told me:
“The College of Policing is independent from Government and its role is clear: setting high professional standards…acting as the national voice of policing; and ensuring police training and ethics is of the highest possible quality.”
But giving perverse priority to non-crime incidents is not among its roles.
While the Home Office collects and publishes information on hate crime offences, information is not collected on non-crime hate incidents or the investigative resource allocated to them. This makes it impossible for Members to hold the police to account for their misuse of resources.
It is outrageous that the police are giving priority to matters that are not criminal while criminal activity, which is rife in our country, goes uninvestigated and unpunished. A prime example of this is criminal fraud. Fewer than 1% of police officers directly investigate fraud, while scarce police resources are being expended in recording non-crimes. In the year ending March 2019, 741,123 crimes of fraud were reported, giving rise to £2.2 billion in losses to victims, but only 42,127 crimes were disseminated for investigation and enforcement by local authorities. Judicial action is being taken in only about 1% of cases. This data is from Action Fraud; if ever there was a misnomer, it is the name “Action Fraud”. I have a constituent who was defrauded of £20,000 last year, from a Santander account, and we are still waiting for Action Fraud to take any “action”. Despite the Crown Prosecution Service reporting that fraud is the most commonly experienced crime in England and Wales, with an estimated 3.4 million incidents in the year ending March 2017, fewer than 1% of police officers are actually investigating it.
The purported justification for recording non-crime hate incidents is that they can be the precursor to criminal activity, but an equally strong—or stronger—argument applies to cases of civil or non-criminal fraud. Why do Home Office rules only allow the recording of fraud offences that meet the definition of crime, and why does a similar rule not apply in the case of hate crime? The Bill would reconfirm that the main responsibility of law enforcement authorities under the rule of law should be to investigate and bring sanctions against those in breach of the existing law. Deployment of resources in respect of non-criminal incidents, whether involving hate or fraud, should be treated as non-core activities.
Another area of criminal impunity is in relation to illegal immigrants. Best estimates are that there are more than 1 million illegal immigrants in the United Kingdom, many of whom are engaged in illegal working and other clandestine criminal activities. They use our public services while undermining fair competition in the workplace. Section 24 of the Immigration Act 1971 sets out a series of criminal offences, including knowingly entering the United Kingdom without leave and remaining beyond the time limited by leave. Despite the vast number of continuing offences against section 24, few prosecutions, if any, are commenced. This scandal is completely at odds with the priorities of the general public and our constituents. The number of deportations is also pitifully few.
The scope of this Bill, however, goes far beyond fraud and illegal immigration. Other activities that are the subject of regulations that are inconsistently enforced include the licensing of houses in multiple occupation. The Government have set down minimum standards enforceable under the licensing system, yet it is estimated that more than half the properties that should be licensed are unlicensed. While the owners of these 76,000 properties operate with impunity, some local authorities are seeking to penalise those who are registered by imposing size standards far higher than the Government minimum. Local authorities are ignoring all properties that should be incorporated into the licensing system while trying to penalise those that have already applied for licensing.
A related scandal is that of rogue landlords. Although there are more than 2 million landlords in England, only 18 individuals and five companies have been put on the register of rogue landlords for offences committed since 6 April 2018. This ineffectual regulation is driving good private landlords out of the market without deterring or penalising the rogues.
Many colleagues will be aware of constituents’ anger due to double standards relating to illegal activities by Gypsies and Travellers compared with the actions of law-abiding residents, as well as due to local authorities’ failure to enforce trading standards laws against the rogue operators of park home sites. In the last month alone, I have received complaints from constituents about the police’s failure to pursue a blatant case of threatened unlawful eviction, their refusal to act against the dealers of illegal drugs, and their failure to enforce the Highways Act 1980 against a pavement obstruction. In the latter example, that was despite the offence having taken place just around the corner from the police station in Christchurch.
Respect for our legal system depends upon public trust that effective enforcement action will be taken consistently. The Bill would help to restore public respect for the law and for the rule of law.
Question put and agreed to.
Ordered,
That Sir Christopher Chope, Sir Edward Leigh, Sir Desmond Swayne, Mr Philip Hollobone, Nigel Mills, Mr Peter Bone, Bob Blackman and Paul Howell present the Bill.
Sir Christopher Chope accordingly presented the Bill.
Bill read the First time; to be read a Second time on Friday 11 September, and to be printed (Bill 99).
Supply and Appropriation (Anticipation and Adjustments) Bill
Tuesday 3rd March 2020
(4 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Supply and Appropriation (Anticipation and Adjustments) Act 2020 View all Supply and Appropriation (Anticipation and Adjustments) Act 2020 Debates Read Hansard Text
Deputy Speaker’s Statement
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I have a short announcement to make about the certification of Bills under the so-called English votes for English laws Standing Orders. Since those Standing Orders were passed, it has been the practice of the Speaker or a Deputy Speaker to suspend the sitting for certification prior to Third Reading in any case when a Bill had been amended since Second Reading. Now that the House has greater experience of this process, Mr Speaker proposes that such a suspension should take place only when a non-Government amendment has been made on the day on which consent is required. In all other cases, the Speaker or Deputy Speaker will sign a certificate in the Chamber in the form of the provisional certificate issued alongside the selection list, and thus already available to the House.
Prisoners (Disclosure of Information About Victims) Bill
Tuesday 3rd March 2020
(4 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Prisoners (Disclosure of Information About Victims) Act 2020 View all Prisoners (Disclosure of Information About Victims) Act 2020 Debates Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts Amendment Paper: Committee of the whole House Amendments as at 3 March 2020 - large print version - (3 Mar 2020)
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Justice (Chris Philp)
I beg to move amendment 1, page 2, line 26, at end insert—
“28B Indecent images: prisoner’s non-disclosure of information
(1) The Parole Board must comply with this section when making a public protection decision about a life prisoner if—
(a) the prisoner’s life sentence was passed for—
(i) an offence of taking an indecent photograph of a child, or
(ii) a relevant offence of making an indecent pseudo-photograph of a child;
(b) the Parole Board does not know the identity of the child who is the subject of the relevant indecent image; and
(c) the Parole Board believes that the prisoner has information about the identity of the child who is the subject of the relevant indecent image which the prisoner has not disclosed to the Parole Board (“the prisoner’s non-disclosure”).
(2) When making the public protection decision about the prisoner, the Parole Board must take into account—
(a) the prisoner’s non-disclosure; and
(b) the reasons, in the Parole Board’s view, for the prisoner’s non-disclosure.
(3) This section does not limit the matters which the Parole Board must or may take into account when making a public protection decision.
(4) In subsection (1)(a), the reference to a life sentence includes a life sentence passed before the coming into force of section 1 of the Prisoners (Disclosure of Information About Victims) Act 2020.
(5) For the purposes of this section, an offence is an “offence of taking an indecent photograph of a child” if it is—
(a) an offence of taking an indecent photograph of a child under section 1(1)(a) of the Protection of Children Act 1978 (the “England and Wales offence”), or
(b) an offence of taking an indecent photograph of a child under the law of Scotland, Northern Ireland, any of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man or any other country or territory that corresponds to the England and Wales offence.
(6) For the purposes of this section, an offence is a “relevant offence of making an indecent pseudo-photograph of a child” if—
(a) it is—
(i) an offence under section 1(1)(a) of the Protection of Children Act 1978 of making an indecent pseudo-photograph of a child (the “England and Wales offence”), or
(ii) an offence of making an indecent pseudo-photograph of a child under the law of Scotland, Northern Ireland, any of the Channel Islands, the Isle of Man or any other country or territory that corresponds to the England and Wales offence, and
(b) the Parole Board believes that an image of a real child was or may have been used in the making of the pseudo-photograph;
and in the application of this section to a relevant offence of making an indecent pseudo-photograph of a child, the references in subsection (1)(b) and (c) to the child who is the subject of the relevant indecent image are references to the real child.
(7) In this section,—
“public protection decision”, in relation to a prisoner, means the decision, made under section 28(6)(b) for the purposes of section 28(5), as to whether the Parole Board is satisfied that it is no longer necessary for the protection of the public that the prisoner should be confined;
“relevant indecent image” means—
(a) the photograph to which an offence of taking an indecent photograph of a child relates, or
(b) the pseudo-photograph to which a relevant offence of making an indecent pseudo-photograph of a child relates.”.
This amends the Crime (Sentences) Act 1997 to require the Parole Board to take account of non-disclosures by life prisoners serving sentences for offences relating to indecent photographs or pseudo-photographs of children.
The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Rosie Winterton)
With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Government amendment 2.
Clauses 1 to 3 stand part.
Chris Philp
This Bill, which passed its Second Reading a short time ago, seeks to respond to two incredibly tragic cases—the tragic murder of Helen McCourt, which happened 32 years ago, and the terrible abuse committed by nursery teacher Vanessa George, who abused the trust placed in her by the parents of tiny children.
Stephen Metcalfe (South Basildon and East Thurrock) (Con)
Unfortunately I have to attend a Delegated Legislation Committee so I will not be able to take part in these proceedings. However, I thank the Minister and his team for introducing this Bill and I remind the House that it goes beyond the two names that he mentioned. My constituent Linda Jones lost her daughter, Danielle Jones, and the whereabouts of the body have never been revealed. While this Bill will help only a small cohort of people, it does go beyond the two names that the Minister mentioned. I welcome the action that the Government are taking and thank them for what they have done.
Chris Philp
I thank my hon. Friend for his intervention. I am very aware that the murderer of his constituent’s daughter, Stuart Campbell, is still in prison. It is to precisely that kind of person that the provisions of the Bill apply, because we want to make sure that when—
Jonathan Edwards (Carmarthen East and Dinefwr) (PC)
Can I add another name to the list? My constituent Michael O’Leary has been missing since January, suspected to have been murdered, and the individual charged with his murder is refusing to let the police know where the body has been hidden. For the families who are now living through this trauma, the fact that they cannot retrieve the body is hugely traumatic. They wanted me to put on the record today their support for what the Government intend to do.
Chris Philp
I am very grateful for the hon. Gentleman’s intervention. He powerfully expresses the importance for the families of victims of knowing where the body of their loved one is. When prisoners, including Stuart Campbell, refuse to disclose the whereabouts of a body, it simply adds to the anguish that the families suffer. In the case that the hon. Member for Carmarthen East and Dinefwr (Jonathan Edwards) mentioned, the individual has been charged but not yet convicted. If that individual is convicted and imprisoned, and the Parole Board comes to consider his release in the future, it will be bound by the provisions of this Bill to take into account the non-disclosure when deciding whether or not to release them.
Having met Marie McCourt, who is Helen McCourt’s mother, the Lord Chancellor and I have heard at first hand just how distressing it is when a prisoner refuses to disclose the whereabouts of the victim’s body. I would like once again to pay particular tribute to Marie McCourt for the campaigning that she has bravely undertaken over these past 32 years since the murder of her daughter Helen.
Related to this is the question of the non-disclosure of the identity of child victims of indecent imagery. I notice that the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) is in his place. He has been speaking out for his constituents whose children were victims of Vanessa George, the nursery school teacher who so cruelly abused the very young, very tiny children in her care, and then refused to disclose the identity of her young victims, thereby adding to the distress of the parents, the families and the victims themselves. I again pay tribute to him for the campaigning that he has undertaken on this topic.
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
How often are the circumstances set out in amendment 1 under new subsection (1)(a)(i) and (ii) actually likely to occur? A life sentence for photographic offences—is that actually likely to happen often?
Chris Philp
I am delighted that my right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne) has turned to the particulars of the Bill, because I would now like to address those.
There are two substantive clauses in this Bill. Clause 1 relates to life sentences handed down for murder, manslaughter or indecent images. It is worth mentioning, in response to my right hon. Friend’s intervention, that amendment 1 adds into the provisions of this Bill sentences of imprisonment for public protection, which can also be handed down for making indecent images. Clause 2 covers the slightly broader type of sentence—namely, extended determinate sentences, whether they are handed down for manslaughter or the failure to disclose the subject of an indecent image. He is quite right to point out that in cases where there has been a failure to disclose the victim of an indecent image, it is more likely that there will be an extended determinate sentence than a life sentence. Indeed, in the case of Vanessa George, the sentence handed down was an extended determinate sentence, so that would have been caught by clause 2 rather than by clause 1.[Official Report, 4 May 2020, Vol. 675, c. 6MC.]
The two clauses taken together cover the range of sentences that might be handed down—life sentences and imprisonment for public protection under amendment 1, and extended determinate sentences under clause 2. The substance of these two clauses ensures that when the Parole Board considers release and comes to make its decision about dangerousness and public protection, the requirement to take into account non-disclosure, and the reasons, in its view, for that non-disclosure is put on a statutory—a legal—footing. That is enshrined in new section 28A(1)(a) and (b) in clause 1(1) . This means that at no point in the future can the Parole Board ever decide to vary its guidelines to disregard these matters. It will also very much focus the mind of the Parole Board, and send a message to it, that this House—this Parliament—takes non-disclosure very, very seriously and expects that to be fully reflected in release decisions.
I notice that the hon. Member for St Helens North (Conor McGinn) is now in his place. I would like to repeat the tribute I paid earlier to his and his constituent Marie McCourt’s campaigning on this topic over very many years. It is a testament to his perseverance through what has been a turbulent period in British politics that this Bill is now here in Committee. Without his work, this would certainly not have happened.
Amendment 2 to clause 1 is a technical, consequential amendment—a subsequent provision just to make sure that amendment 1 works technically.
I hope that I have explained the operative provisions of this Bill, which will place on a statutory footing the obligation on the Parole Board to consider non-disclosure of victims’ whereabouts or non-disclosure of the identity of a child victim of indecent images. I think the whole House, and indeed all our constituents, will very strongly welcome that. I commend the amendments and the clauses to the Committee.
Luke Pollard (Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport) (Lab/Co-op)
I rise in support of the amendments that the Minister has just set out to this very important Bill.
The crimes that Vanessa George committed against the babies and toddlers in the constituency I represent at Little Ted’s nursery were simply disgusting. They will be abhorred by any right-minded person. It does not need a partisan label—a party political badge—to know that this is a good piece of natural justice: a law that should be supported by everyone of all parties.
I set out the particular case around Vanessa George on Second Reading, but on behalf of the families—those who were able to come forward—I want to thank the Minister and his ministerial colleagues for the way they have brought forward this campaign. It would be very easy for a Government to ignore a campaign by an Opposition MP, and I am grateful to Ministers for not doing that but instead looking at the victims and the severity of the crimes involved, and acting accordingly by doing what is right.
Vanessa George still shows no remorse for the crimes that she committed and no remorse for the fact that she still refuses to name the children she abused. We do not know how many children at Little Ted’s nursery she did abuse, because she has not told anyone. We know how many children were there, and we have a good idea about which children might have been exposed to her cruel and evil crimes. Those children are now fast-emerging young people who are coming to terms with their place in the world and the way that they feel. The crimes that were committed against them by Vanessa George as children will have long-lasting psychological, and in some cases physical, consequences for them in future. A child not knowing whether they were a victim themselves not only deprives the families of the peace of mind of knowing but deprives that child of the help and support they might otherwise have been able to access. Uncertainty is a prison that those children and their families will be in for quite some time.
The right hon. Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne) raised an issue in relation to life sentences. The families do not mind what the sentence is. Anyone who declines to name the children they abuse should not be eligible for early release. In particular, on the question whether a life sentence is passed down for an offence of taking an indecent image of a child or a relevant offence of making an indecent pseudo image of a child, I would be grateful if the Minister could set out whether that also applies to contemporaneous charges. In many cases, it is very unlikely that a life sentence would be passed down just for taking those images, but it might be passed down for the indecent images and the acts of abuse themselves, so would that collection of charges fall under the description in amendment 1 under new subsection 28B (1)(a)(i) and (ii)?
Dr Kieran Mullan (Crewe and Nantwich) (Con)
Progress should always be welcomed, and the Bill is progress. It sends a clear message to Parole Board members about the Government’s priorities. Our priority should be to have a laser-like focus on the victims of crime and their families.
Of all the things that can happen to us, having a close friend or family member murdered or fall victim to a paedophile is one of the greatest possible injustices. Through the police, the courts and the wider justice system, ordinary people should be able to secure redress for injustice. That is why we have these systems and why they have been introduced and built on over time. Otherwise, ordinary people would have no alternative but to take matters into their own hands.
Today, we are trying to deliver improved redress in at least one regard. We are aiming to prevent the truly horrendous injustice of a victim’s family having to watch as the person who killed their loved one walks away from prison having not revealed the location of their relative’s body. We are also aiming to prevent paedophiles from leaving their victims unidentified, with all the uncertainty and distress that that might cause families whose children were within the reach of these people.
To ensure that we truly honour the memory of Helen and others, it is vital that we ensure that the changes and the progress we are making in the House today make a difference in the real world for victims of crime and their families. That is how we ensure that campaigners such as Marie are truly able to think about their lost relatives and to take at least some comfort from the fact that their deaths have led to something positive.
Will any guidance be issued to the Parole Board as to how the new statutory duty is expected to be given consideration and what weight it is likely to carry? Will the Minister outline the expected impact this change in law will have? How confident can we be that people who, prior to this law, would have been released will now not be?
I would ask that we keep an open mind on this issue. Today’s legislation is welcome and positive, but we need to make sure that, in reality, it secures the redress that victims and their families rightly seek.
Bambos Charalambous (Enfield, Southgate) (Lab)
As I stated on Second Reading, the Opposition will support the Bill. It rightly addresses the situation of prisoners who have been convicted of murder or manslaughter who then refuse to reveal the identity or the whereabouts of the body, and also the situation of those who have been convicted of taking or making indecent images of children and refuse to identify their victims. Under the Bill, the non-disclosure in both cases is to be formally considered by the Parole Board when someone is being considered for release on licence.
The Bill is the result, first, of Helen’s law, which was introduced by my hon. Friend the Member for St Helens North (Conor McGinn). My hon. Friend’s constituent Helen McCourt was murdered, and her mother has led the campaign for Helen’s law. To this day, Helen’s murderer refuses to disclose the whereabouts of her body. That compounds the family’s grief and denies them the right to lay their loved one to rest.
My hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) has also campaigned for the provisions in the Bill. The shocking case of the nursery assistant Vanessa George shook the community in his constituency. Vanessa George took indecent images of children at the nursery where she worked and was subsequently convicted, but she still refuses to identify the children.
I cannot praise enough the determination and tenacity of Marie McCourt, the mother of Helen McCourt, who fought and lobbied so hard to get this Bill to become law, as it surely now will do, or the community in Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport, which also campaigned hard to get the Bill on the statute book in relation to the images of the children.
The Government have done a good job in drafting the Bill and placing the requirement in it on the Parole Board. The Parole Board rightly owes a duty to victims. Reliving the trauma and horror of a crime when giving a statement can sometimes be distressing and overwhelming for victims, and they should not have to go through that trauma. If the Parole Board was minded to release a prisoner because they were no longer regarded as a threat to the public, the only option open to victims to challenge that view would be to seek a reconsideration of the Parole Board decision. The Bill puts in an additional safeguard in these exceptional cases; we are not talking about a huge number of cases, and the changes will very likely impact only a handful of cases each year, but the suffering caused is immeasurable for the families and loved ones affected.
There cannot be many people who do not agree with the measures in the Bill. It is clear from the speeches on Second Reading and the comments made in this Committee stage that the Bill has cross-party support. To condemn the relatives of victims to further unnecessary anguish is truly appalling and should not go unpunished. This Bill is short—only three clauses—but by amending the Crime (Sentences) Act 1997 and the Criminal Justice Act 2003, it allows for non-disclosure to be formally considered when deciding whether to release a prisoner on licence. That helps to avoid the additional pain and suffering of having to draft a victim statement. The Minister eloquently gave the details of the two amendments the Government have tabled, so I will not repeat or explain them, but both have the support of the Opposition.
As the prevalence of image sharing increases, it will be much easier for the identities of child victims of indecent images to be hidden via various software, and there is a real possibility that there could be more cases of indecent images of unknown child victims. Sentencing guidelines must keep pace with new developments in technology and the regulation of associated offences that we are yet to identify. I therefore await with interest the Government’s White Paper on sentencing, which is due later this year.
I hope the Government will tighten up the victims code and think about introducing a victims law. For now, however, the Opposition are content to support the Bill and the two Government amendments and to help Helen’s law become an Act of Parliament.
Chris Philp
I thank the shadow Minister for the constructive tone in which he has engaged with the Bill in general and for his remarks a few moments ago. To pick up on his comments on the sentencing White Paper, we do indeed intend to bring it forward later this calendar year. Hopefully, we can look at a much wider range of issues connected with sentencing to make sure that the punishment always fits the crime. In relation to a victims Bill, it is our intention to legislate in that area later in the current Session.
I want to reassure the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) on both the points he raised. Where there is a collection of offences, some of which come within the scope of the Bill but others of which do not, this Bill will be engaged when release comes to be considered, even if only one of the offences falls within its scope. His constituents can be reassured that the Bill will apply in those circumstances.
All sentence types are covered. Clause 1, which amends section 28 of the Crime (Sentences) Act 1997, will cover life sentences and, as amended, sentences for imprisonment for public protection. Clause 2, which amends the Criminal Justice Act 2003, covers extended determinate sentences, so all sentence types are covered by this Bill, as amended. I can therefore give the hon. Gentleman the categorical assurance he requested.
In relation to the question raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Dr Mullan), I expect the Parole Board to give significant weight to non-disclosure. The fact that Parliament has gone as far as legislating in this area will send an extremely clear message to the people taking these decisions, and I expect this to weigh heavily on the mind of Parole Board members when they take these decisions. A wider review into the operation of the Parole Board will commence in due course—the so-called root-and-branch review announced in the manifesto last December—and there will be an opportunity for my hon. Friend and all Members to contribute to that discussion.
Putting on the face of the Bill the requirement to take non-disclosure into account means that it can never be changed, other than by a subsequent Act of Parliament. It will also send a message to Parole Board members about how important these issues are for Members of this House, for the reasons described today. I commend the amendments and clauses to the House.
Amendment 1 agreed to.
Amendment made: 2, in clause 1, page 2, line 30, leave out “Section 28A contains” and insert “Sections 28A and 28B contain”.—(Chris Philp.)
This amendment is consequential on Amendment 1.
Clause 1, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair.
Bill, as amended, reported.
Bill, as amended in the Committee, considered.
Madam Deputy Speaker (Dame Rosie Winterton)
There are no amendments on consideration.
As no non-Government amendments have been made to the Bill, I am signing a certificate on the basis of the provisional certificate issued with the selection list. As indicated in that provisional certificate, I certify that the Prisoners (Disclosure of Information About Victims) Bill relates exclusively to England and Wales on matters within devolved legislative competence, under Standing Order No. 83J.
Does the Minister intend to move a consent motion in the Legislative Grand Committee?
Chris Philp
indicated assent.
The House forthwith resolved itself into the Legislative Grand Committee (England and Wales) (Standing Order No. 83M).
[Dame Rosie Winterton in the Chair]
The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Dame Rosie Winterton)
I remind hon. Members that, if there is a Division, only Members representing constituencies in England and Wales may vote.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That the Legislative Grand Committee (England and Wales) consents to the Prisoners (Disclosure of Information About Victims) Bill, as amended in Committee and not amended on Report.—(Chris Philp.)
Patrick Grady (Glasgow North) (SNP)
I want to start by recognising the gravity of the issues that the Bill deals with and being extremely clear that it is not the intention of the Scottish National party in any way to make light of the legislation or diminish the seriousness with which consideration of it has been conducted so far. I want to offer our condolences to all the victims who have been described and congratulate the campaigners who have got us this far.
But we cannot allow a sitting of the Legislative Grand Committee (England and Wales)—what we refer to as the English Parliament—to go past completely unnoticed. The hon. Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Dr Mullan) said that he wants to see this legislation move as quickly as possible, as do I, yet here we are going through procedures that have been objected to several times and have proven themselves completely unnecessary, even with the amendments moved by the Government today.
I welcome the announcement you made earlier, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the practice of suspending the House for a period while certifications are made has been deemed by Mr Speaker today to no longer be necessary in these kinds of circumstances, where the consensus is clear. I hope that that represents an evolution of the English votes for English laws process and that such an evolution will continue.
Pete Wishart (Perth and North Perthshire) (SNP)
My hon. Friend is right to recognise the gravity of the Bill, but he is also right that we cannot let this pass without recognising the absurdity of the EVEL process. It is good to have these reforms, but the only reform required when it comes to English votes for English laws is its abolition, to get rid of this nonsense that we have to subject ourselves to on an ongoing basis. Does he agree that we have to look seriously at what progress we can make on abandoning the idea of having two classes of Members of Parliament in this House?
Patrick Grady
Yes; my hon. Friend is right. The point that we have always made is that it should certainly not be for the Government, and it should not have to fall to the Chair either, to decide what matters are or are not important to our constituents. It should be for those of us in Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland. The Minister has moved a consent motion, and it will be for the Committee to decide whether to consent, but I hope that we do not have to find ourselves in this situation too often in the future.
Question put and agreed to.
The occupant of the Chair left the Chair to report the decision of the Committee (Standing Order No. 83M(6)).
The Deputy Speaker resumed the Chair; decision reported.
Third Reading
The Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice (Robert Buckland)
I beg to move, That the Bill be now read the Third time.
As Members know, the Bill ensures that the non-disclosure of information about a victim’s remains or their identity, and the reasons for that non-disclosure, are fully considered by the Parole Board when making a release decision. It is then for the Parole Board, which is an independent body, to decide what bearing such information has on the risk that a prisoner may present and whether that risk can be managed safely in their community. The Bill reflects the established practice of the Parole Board, as included in its guidance to panel members in 2017, but it goes an important step further in placing a legal duty to take the non-disclosure into account. This is part of the Government’s intention to provide a greater degree of reassurance to victims’ families by formally setting out that guidance in law.
This important Bill responds directly to real-life issues that we know have caused and continue to cause immense distress to families of victims of serious crimes. I see in the Chamber my hon. Friend the Member for St Helens North (Conor McGinn)—I will call him my hon. Friend on this occasion—who has assiduously campaigned with the McCourt family to ensure that today has become a reality. I pay tribute to him for that, as I did on Second Reading. I also see the hon. Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard), who brought to bear his grave concerns relating to a case in his constituency, which resulted in the expansion of the Bill to encompass the horrendous circumstances in which many of his constituents tragically found themselves as a result of material non-co-operation. I pay tribute to them, and indeed to all hon. Members who over the past few years have campaigned hard to make sure that this Bill was introduced.
It is imperative that we protect the public from potentially dangerous offenders. Those offenders who do not disclose the whereabouts of a victim’s remains or the identity of the victims in indecent images must be thoroughly assessed, and the non-disclosure must always be taken into account. We can all agree about the importance of stipulating in statute that appalling circumstances such as those addressed in this Bill must be fully taken into account by the Parole Board when making any decisions on the release of such an offender. It is clearly in the public interest that all elements of a prisoner’s release are given consideration, and in turn, it is in the interests of the Parole Board to be able to rely on statutory provision about always considering the relevant non-disclosure of information in its release assessments.
I extend my thanks to everybody who has helped to prepare this Bill, particularly the Under-Secretary, my hon. Friend the Member for Croydon South (Chris Philp), for his hard and detailed work, and the Bill team for their strenuous efforts. Most importantly, to all those families affected by despicable crimes such as these, I pay warm and heartfelt tribute. I hope they will be able to take some comfort from knowing that their dedication provides some hope for other families affected by the cruel and heartless actions of those who refuse to disclose vital information. On behalf of all those families and victims, I thank you. I appreciate the positive engagement with and cross-party support for the principles in this Bill, and the Department’s help with the progress that we have made. I commend this Bill to the House.
Bambos Charalambous
I would like to join the Secretary of State in thanking all hon. Members for their contributions and for the tone they have set throughout the Second Reading and Committee stages of this debate.
I again give my thanks to Marie McCourt for her tireless work in making sure that this Bill—Helen’s law—has come before Parliament. Its first form was a private Member’s Bill brought in by my hon. Friend the Member for St Helens North (Conor McGinn), and a version of that Bill has now been picked up by the Government, taking us to where we are now. I also thank my hon. Friend the Member for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport (Luke Pollard) for leading the community campaign to incorporate the offences regarding indecent images in this Bill. This campaign followed the conviction of Vanessa George, who refused to disclose the identities of the children she abused.
There can be few things worse than learning of the murder of a close relative and having to endure the living hell of how it happened. There is also the trauma of the trial and the painstaking detail that is raked over to ensure a conviction. I doubt that anyone grieving will be consoled by a guilty verdict and justice being done, although it may help in the coping process, but the never-ending turmoil of not having a body to lay to rest is one of the cruellest forms of emotional torture.
The body of Helen McCourt, murdered in 1988, has never been found. Her killer, who was released from prison four weeks ago, has never disclosed the whereabouts of her body. The pain and suffering of Helen’s family sadly goes on, and if it is any comfort to Marie McCourt, this Bill passing into law will be a fitting tribute to her campaign in her daughter’s memory. It is equally distressing not knowing if your child has been the victim of the sharing of indecent images. The appalling abuse perpetrated by Vanessa George has been compounded by her refusal to disclose which of the children in her care were the subjects of indecent images.
Both Ian Simms, who was given a life sentence for the murder of Helen McCourt, and Vanessa George, who was convicted for sharing images of children at the nursery where she worked, have now been released on licence by the Parole Board. The unbearable suffering that Ian Simms and Vanessa George have caused, and continue to cause by the nondisclosure of information about their victims, endures.
At present, the only way a victim could have made their views known about a potential release on licence by the Parole Board would have been by making a witness statement to the Parole Board or seeking a reconsideration of the decision within 21 days. Both these avenues would require the victims to be proactive, invariably having to relive the distressing experience of the crime and to justify their reasons for objecting to the release. This Bill makes it a requirement for the Parole Board, for the offences stated in this Bill, to take into account the prisoner’s conduct in not disclosing information about victims and in prolonging the pain and suffering.
While a duty is owed to victims by the Parole Board, it does not go far enough in my view, and the victims code certainly needs revamping. The Parole Board’s decisions can have a profound effect on victims and prisoners alike, and no decision should be taken lightly. The fact that the Parole Board can place conditions on the release of a prisoner does not in my view go far enough, and it cannot address wilful refusal in relation to the non-disclosure of information. Let us be clear: the Bill does not extend a prisoner’s sentence, but it makes it clear that non-disclosure must be a factor in assessing the fitness of a prisoner to be released and their potential risk to the public.
In Committee and on Second Reading, hon. Members told us of their own experiences and of cases involving their constituents where the pain and suffering had been exacerbated by the conduct of the prisoner or their experience of dealing with the Parole Board. There are still issues to be resolved regarding the Parole Board, such as the transparency of its decision making, the lack of information given to victims, the lack of emotional and practical support available to victims throughout the whole process, and even keeping people up to date with decisions about a prisoner’s release. There are many areas of improvement that need to be looked at in relation to how victims are treated. Although they are outside the scope of this Bill, they are matters that need to be viewed in tandem with the Bill.
The debate and discussion we have had on this Bill shows Parliament at its best—when we are working together with a united purpose for a common good. While this Bill will not assist us in finding the whereabouts of Helen McCourt’s body or identifying the images of the children abused by Vanessa George, the measures in this Bill will, I hope, provide added pressure on prisoners to think again when refusing to disclose information about their victims. The Opposition will be supporting this Bill.
Conor McGinn (St Helens North) (Lab)
People in places like St Helens—good, decent, honest, hard-working people—expect us in this place to do what is right by them, to work in the national interest and to do together what is patently obviously right. I think, therefore, that this is a good day for the House, and a day that so many victims across the country will recognise as one on which the Government have played their role, working with the Opposition, in doing something that will alleviate a great deal of the pain and suffering felt by victims in the cases that have been referenced throughout the progress of this Bill through the House.
In the case of my constituent Marie McCourt, that is of course the murder of her daughter Helen, and today is bitter-sweet. She has been a quiet, dignified, but very tenacious champion, and I am sure the Secretary of State, the Minister and their predecessors can attest to the strength of her determination on this, but it is bitter-sweet because the murderer of her daughter has already been released. However, as I said on Second Reading, it is a testament to the character of Marie McCourt that her campaign continued, despite the knowledge that that was likely to happen, so that other families would not have to suffer.
Stephen Metcalfe
I say “hon. Friend” because on this issue we have worked closely together. Will he accept my thanks for his leadership on this issue, for working so hard to make sure that this did not fall off the agenda and for making sure that today did actually happen? On behalf of my constituent Linda Jones, Marie McCourt and the others, we are grateful to the House for bringing this forward.
Conor McGinn
I thank the hon. Gentleman very much not just for his words in the Chamber today, but for the co-operation we have had over the last three or four years in continuing to ensure that this agenda was to the fore. I also recognise that officials from the Department have not just delivered on this Bill and spent painstaking hours going through all the legalese required, but have met me and the family over the course of many years.
I pay particular tribute to the Secretary of State and the Minister. They made a promise to the McCourt family, and they kept it. They consistently and continually worked with the family, and they showed a great deal of empathy and support. They did much behind the scenes to ensure that Marie, John, Michael, and all the McCourt family felt sure that this Bill would be passed, as it has been. In Northern Ireland, Charlotte Murray’s family are hoping to change the law there, and in Scotland the family of Suzanne Pilley hope to do the same. This is unfinished business in a legislative sense for the rest of the UK, and we hope that those legislatures will act accordingly.
For 31 years, the community in Billinge has prayed at St Mary’s Catholic church for Helen McCourt and the return of her remains, and those prayers continue. I know that Members across the House send their sympathy and solidarity to Marie McCourt, on a day on which she can rightly take pride, although that, of course, does not return the remains of her beloved Helen.
Question put and agreed to,
Bill accordingly read the Third time and passed.
Terms and Conditions of Employment
(4 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Paul Scully)
I beg to move,
That the draft Statutory Parental Bereavement Pay (General) Regulations 2020, which were laid before this House on 23 January, be approved.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
With this it will be convenient to consider the draft Parental Bereavement Leave Regulations 2020.
Paul Scully
The statutory instruments implement a new entitlement to paid leave for employees who lose a child under the age of 18, or whose baby is stillborn. There is currently no specific statutory right to take time off work to grieve following the loss of a child, and although there are many excellent and supportive employers, some sadly do not extend the same compassion to their employees when these tragic circumstances occur. The SIs will ensure a statutory minimum provision on which all working parents can rely in the event of a child death or stillbirth. They will also establish a clear baseline of support for employers when managing bereavement in the workplace. Fortunately, the number of child deaths is relatively small—every year, there are around 7,500 child deaths in Great Britain, including stillbirths—but behind each individual death of a baby or child, there are parents, and a wider family, for whom the sadness and pain of that loss are unquantifiable.
Sir Desmond Swayne (New Forest West) (Con)
It is right that the provisions address the death of a child who has been placed for adoption, meaning that the adult who intended to adopt that child will be covered by them. Why have adults in such a situation been excluded if an objection to the adoption has been raised? Surely the grief will be no less whether or not the adoption is unopposed, yet the regulations specifically exclude an adult from receiving the provision if there had been an objection to the proposed adoption.
Paul Scully
I am grateful to my right hon. Friend for his question. A lot of consideration went into how to define bereaved parents, and we have extended the provisions, after a discussion following the introduction of the private Member’s Bill of my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake). Hopefully I will be able to develop that point as we continue our debate, and perhaps answer my right hon. Friend’s question.
I am conscious that many Members have personal experience of the issue, or stories of constituents who have been through this. I admire the bravery and honesty that they have displayed when speaking about the issue in the Chamber, and I hope that they will be proud of their contribution to effecting this change in the law. I extend special thanks to my hon. Friend the Member for Thirsk and Malton for promoting the original Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Bill, and to my hon. Friend the hon. Member for Colchester (Will Quince) for his work to raise the profile of the issue in Parliament.
The draft Parental Bereavement Leave Regulations 2020 will give all employees a right to a minimum of two weeks off work in the event of their child’s death or stillbirth, regardless of how long they have worked for their employer. The draft Statutory Parental Bereavement Pay (General) Regulations 2020 implement a new statutory payment for parents who are taking time away from work following their bereavement, subject to the same eligibility criteria as all other statutory family leave payments.
The impact assessment that was published alongside the Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Act 2018 set out that the impact on business is small, at approximately £1.2 million per year. That is unchanged by the content of the draft SIs. The policy has undergone thorough consultation with the public, and stakeholders representing bereaved parents and employers. The views expressed by Members during the passage of the 2018 Act have also been taken into account. I will now set out how the Government have decided to exercise the powers given to them through that Act.
Sir Desmond Swayne
Before the Minister continues, may I withdraw the awkward question that I put to him earlier, as I find that it is adequately answered in part 3 of the relevant regulations?
Paul Scully
I thank my right hon. Friend for his diligent examination of the papers before him. I am glad he is informed.
The regulations define a “bereaved parent” in broad terms by reference to the employee’s relationship to the child. That reflects the diversity of existing family structures, taking account of biological and adoptive parents, as well as certain foster carers and kinship carers. As far as possible, we have sought to base the definition on facts that are easily identifiable to the employee and their employer.
Bereaved parents will be able to take two weeks’ leave from their job, and they will have the choice of whether to take those weeks consecutively or non-consecutively. The regulations provide a window of 56 weeks, beginning with the date of death, in which the entitlement can be exercised. Bereaved parents will therefore be able to take time off in the immediate aftermath of the death, at a later point—for example around the first anniversary of the death—or on both occasions, as they see fit.
Consistent with other rights to family-related leave, the employee will be required to give notice to their employer before taking parental bereavement leave, and such notice can be given orally. The notice required for leave will vary depending on when leave is taken in relation to the date of death or stillbirth. A very short notice period is required for leave taken soon after the death, whereas one week’s notice is required for leave taken later in the 56-week window. In both cases, the notice required for leave is designed to be minimal and to place as little burden on the employee as possible.
To claim statutory parental bereavement pay, the employee must provide notice to their employer in writing. Notice for pay can be given after the leave has been taken, meaning that that requirement will not create a barrier to a bereaved parent taking time off. In no circumstances will an employee be required to produce their child’s death or stillbirth certificate in order to access that entitlement. The regulations mean that no evidence is required for a parent to exercise their right to take leave, but to be eligible for pay, an employee will be required to provide minimal evidence. Such evidence will be a written self-declaration that they meet eligibility conditions regarding their relationship with the child, together with confirmation of their name, and the date of the child’s death or stillbirth.
Throughout my remarks I have referred to employees, and that is because parental bereavement leave and pay are employment rights, meaning that individuals who have a different employment status will not qualify. That is consistent with all other statutory parental leave and pay entitlements.
The provisions in the statutory instruments will provide bereaved parents with an important space to grieve following the death or stillbirth of their child. The change in the law will also send a signal to employers about the importance and value of recognising bereavement, and of providing adequate support for parents in such circumstances. I commend the regulations to the House.
Rachael Maskell (York Central) (Lab/Co-op)
We are here today to debate the establishment of statutory parental bereavement leave and pay arrangements following Royal Assent to the Bill known as Jack’s law, in memory of Jack Herd. I pay tribute to his mother, Lucy, who will today see her work reach its concluding stages.
I am sure that Members on both sides of the House welcome the introduction of these measures, and I thank those from all parties who have advanced the need to establish bereavement leave and pay. Over the past few years, Members have recalled their own personal grief at the loss of a child or a stillbirth. The pain, the heartache and the impact are personal, but those who have had to face such sadness need a state that provides universal support to parents. In particular, I want to thank my hon. Friend the Member for Swansea East (Carolyn Harris), who has powerfully shared her own circumstances following the loss of her son and has forced Parliament to take a fresh look at bereavement, and the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake), my North Yorkshire colleague, who took the private Member’s Bill through the House.
I know that trade unions and businesses also welcome these measures. The Opposition believe that this is a first step, and one that we hope to build on as better understanding of grief and bereavement is acknowledged. While the provisions make adjustments for a period of two weeks, for those who have experienced loss, bereavement can last a lifetime. We need employers to look at what more can be done to support workers at difficult times.
I want to raise a number of issues regarding the regulations. The statutory instrument on pay applies only to employees. Clearly the measure is welcome, but it means that not all workers, as the Minister said, can access the provisions. Regulation 11 of the draft Statutory Parental Bereavement Pay (General) Regulations 2020 defines who would be entitled and who would be excluded, but will the Minister set out how he plans to address this inequality? Labour is clear: we would want to create a single status of “worker” to which all provisions would apply.
How will the Government ensure that bereaved parents in precarious work, including those on zero-hours contracts, can access two weeks’ statutory bereavement leave? While the provision for a statutory period of leave applies to all employees, the regulations that come into effect on 6 April 2020 make provision for statutory pay to apply only to those who have completed six months of service. However, bereavement and loss do not respect timelines. If someone loses their baby or child in their first six months of employment, the provisions should be extended to them. The loss is as great, and the need for leave and support as necessary.
The fact that the ability to take leave will, for some, be without pay means that those with the fewest means might not be able to afford to take it. Will the Minister set out why there is a limitation for those who have worked for less than six months and will he review it? While the regulations make provision for leave and pay for parents who lose a baby through stillbirth or who lose a child up to the age of 18, what provision has been made for parents who experience baby loss earlier in pregnancy? Further work should be done in this area.
Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
I thank the hon. Lady for her kind comments earlier. She will acknowledge that, as the Minister said, this is a signal to employers. It is not simply a case of, “This is what you have to give.” She will agree that most employers are considerate in such circumstances and will go much further than the regulations require. This is the floor that we will work from, rather than the ceiling.
Rachael Maskell
I thank the hon. Member for his comments. He is absolutely right that this should be the beginning of a much broader conversation with all employers, whatever the circumstances in which they employ their staff.
It is believed that 10,200 parents each year will be eligible for statutory parental bereavement leave, with 9,300 eligible for statutory parental bereavement pay, meaning that about 1,000 parents a year will not be entitled to the pay provision. Will the Minister look again to see if day one provision could be extended specifically in that area?
I further seek to clarify that under the provisions of regulation 8 of the draft Parental Bereavement Leave Regulations 2020, two weeks’ statutory parental bereavement leave could commence following a completed period of maternity or paternity leave, provided that the two weeks’ allowance is used within 56 weeks of the loss of a baby or child. Labour believes that ensuring that all workers have day one rights would recognise that loss is loss and bereavement is bereavement. Arbitrary timescales should not come into this. While we would extend day one rights to all areas of employment law, it is important that the position is revisited for bereavement pay.
I also trust that employers will recognise the strength of these arguments and seek to go further when implementing these provisions. Good employment focuses on taking care of the holistic needs of the workforce, most acutely at the time of greatest need. We need to provide more time, time spread over a longer period, full pay, and support at key times, for instance on anniversary days. I trust that employers will be compassionate in making the fullest offer to staff, should they experience the loss of a baby or child.
Of course, bereavement brings its own patterns of grief, and time is necessary to come to terms with such loss. I hope that the Government will revisit this shortly, perhaps in the forthcoming employment Bill. The loss of a parent can often involve people having to take many additional practical measures to manage the parent’s estate or belongings, such as clearing a property. Bereavement leave could therefore be extended.
Research shows that not all parents are aware of their rights. For instance, 58% of those in low-paid work are not aware of what they are entitled to, and 63% are not aware of the right to unpaid parental leave, according to the TUC. Some have been found to use sick leave to address a family caring responsibility. That highlights the fact that from 6 April, not all parents will be aware of the changed provisions. Will the Government put in place a systematic approach so that parents can learn about these new measures? While we would hope that employers will inform their staff, may I suggest that NHS and hospice staff, as well as registrars for deaths, are briefed on the new provisions?
From 6 April this year, bereaved parents will have some time and support to manage the difficult days and weeks following the loss of their baby or child. This is a first step, and the Opposition will support the regulations today.
Kevin Hollinrake (Thirsk and Malton) (Con)
It is a pleasure to speak in the debate. While I very much appreciate what Government and Opposition Members have said, the credit and inspiration for the legislation certainly does not belong to me. They belong to many other people, not least my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Will Quince), who tried to introduce such a measure in a previous Parliament. I was simply lucky enough to come top of the ballot for private Members’ Bills, after which he was one of the first people to ring me. I was aware of his campaign as a result of many debates in Parliament and I had heard many Members speak about their own personal tragedies, so it was an absolute pleasure to be able to take on the baton and do what I could to introduce the legislation. At the election, both political parties committed to implement it, and the Government and Opposition have both been hugely supportive in doing so quickly.
Some of my constituents drew my attention to their own tragedies. Annika and James Dowson very sadly lost their little daughter, Gypsy, who was stillborn. It is touching that many people who have experienced these tragedies have turned their energies to fighting for something that is positive and good. Annika and James raised money for a bereavement ward at Scarborough Hospital. Anyone who has been on a ward and thinks of the experience of someone who has lost a child yet sees children in their first days, with all the happiness around that, while they are facing tragedy, can understand the need for bereavement suites. Luke and Ruthie Heron lost their little child, Eli, who was born at 23 weeks and six days. Had he not lived for another two and a half days, his birth would have been categorised as a miscarriage, rather than a stillbirth. We all come across these terrible tragedies.
I pay tribute to Lucy Herd and her little son, Jack, who was nearly two when he passed away—a tragic occurrence—and it is right that we can refer to this legislation as Jack’s law. Initially, because of my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester, we were going to refer to “Will’s Bill”, but Jack’s law is a far more fitting tribute to the campaign that has been run. Many other people have supported this, and I am so appreciative of Opposition and Government Members’ support in getting the Bill through. It went through in record time—we had to squeeze it in before the end of a parliamentary Session.
When people are told about such legislation, they are hugely shocked that it was not on the statute book already. However, nine out of 10 employers would be hugely considerate in such circumstances and a great number of them would give people whatever time off they needed to grieve, quite rightly. In many cases, employers would offer full pay during that time so that people could hopefully get over some of the grief and move on. This is not just about the individual; it is also about the signal that employers can send to the rest of their workforce, because showing compassion at such times is simply good employment practice.
I thank Members on both sides of the House, Opposition and Government Front Benchers, and successive Business Secretaries, who have been so supportive in taking the legislation forward. I also mention the former Member for Stourbridge, Margot James, who was hugely supportive in making sure that we got the Bill on to the statute book quickly. I am grateful for the opportunity to be associated with this legislation and I wish it a speedy passage through the House.
Patricia Gibson (North Ayrshire and Arran) (SNP)
It is no surprise that these parental bereavement pay and leave measures are warmly welcomed across the House and across the United Kingdom. Several of us in the House have had the tragic and life-changing experience of having to bury our own child. We talked much about this during the Committee stage of the Parental Bereavement (Leave and Pay) Act 2018 in the previous Session of Parliament. We all understood not only the importance of the measures but that they were not for us—they were for all those men and women who in the future will have to undergo this agony. We in public life who have gone through this terrible experience have a duty—I believe it is a sacred and moral duty—to improve the situation for those who, in time to come, will suffer the same terrible fate of losing a child. I also pay tribute to the former Member for Eddisbury, Antoinette Sandbach; although she is no longer a Member of this House, she did much work on parental bereavement and baby loss, and it is important to remember that.
The legislation is non-partisan and that is exactly as it should be. It is no secret that, while I wholeheartedly support these measures, as far as they go—I hear what the hon. Member for Thirsk and Malton (Kevin Hollinrake) said about this being an opening salvo in perhaps more comprehensive protection for bereaved parents—I do not think that they go far enough. But they are a start. The measures started life as that most fragile thing—a private Member’s Bill—and it is down in no small part to the hard work led by the hon. Member who sponsored the original Bill that they have come this far.
These measures right a wrong; they correct the injustice that bereaved parents who bury their son or daughter are, under the law, not entitled to any paid or unpaid time off work. That means that any leave taken in such circumstances was entirely at the discretion of employers. We know that most employers would be hugely sympathetic to a member of staff facing such a loss, not just as an employer but as a fellow human being. We also know that others may not be and we heard anecdotal evidence of such cases, particularly in the Bill Committee.
I was delighted that the amendment I tabled in the Bill Committee to cover parents who suffered a stillbirth was accepted—a clear sign of the careful and considered cross-party working that took the Bill as far as it got. To face the death of a son or daughter with no entitlement to paid leave under the law has been for too long a terrible, terrible injustice that generations of people before us have suffered. I am proud that that has now been addressed.
These measures set out a minimum leave period of two weeks. That is not very long, but given that up to this point there was no entitlement at all, it is a start. Importantly, it provides legal recognition that the response to a life-changing event can and should no longer be a matter of discretion for employers. This is one of those days when we can feel that we are making a real, practical difference to the lives of our constituents as they face perhaps the worst experience that they can ever face.
People cope with the devastation of losing their child in a variety of ways, as we know—there is no right or wrong way to grieve or cope with loss. That is why I had hoped, through the passage of the legislation, for more flexibility on when the paid leave could be taken, but I take on board and very much welcome the Minister’s comments a wee while back about flexibility, because it is very important. Parents need to grieve in their own way and in their own time as far as possible. The circumstances of the loss of a child will matter, and bereaved parents must have the full protection of the law. I hope that at some point the Government will revisit this to develop it into a more sensitive package than it currently is.
I also wanted these measures to cover offspring beyond the age limit of 18 years, as set out in the provisions. The measures are, after all, about bereaved parents and not the child who has been lost. This really ought not to be about the circumstances or the age at which the child is lost; it is about protecting the parents following the loss of a son or daughter—something that goes against the natural order of events.
These provisions are extremely welcome, but I look forward to the day—I hope the Minister is listening—when their scope is expanded in the ways I have set out. I will continue to work towards that end with anybody who is willing to work with me, for the sake of my own son who was stillborn at full term, baby Kenneth.
Paul Scully
I thank all hon. Members for their consideration of these SIs and for their valuable contributions to the debate. I hope that Members on both sides of the House can agree that they are essential to ensure that no employed parent faces the prospect of returning to work too soon after the tragic loss of a child, should they need time away to grieve.
We are giving parents an important choice through the SIs, allowing them to decide what is best for their needs. They might otherwise have been reliant on the good will of their employer—as we have heard, it has not always been the case that employers have shown that goodwill. The provisions in the SIs strike the right balance between the needs of bereaved parents and those of their employers, who will administer the new entitlement.
My right hon. Friend the Member for New Forest West (Sir Desmond Swayne), who is no longer in his seat, withdrew his question, but it is important that people listening understand what we are doing for adoptive parents. He asked why someone who had applied for an adoption order but had their application rejected would not qualify. The grief experienced by an individual in such circumstances would affect them greatly, and an adoptive parent would qualify from the point at which the child was placed with them for adoption, irrespective of whether the application was rejected, if the child had been living with them for four weeks or more and had been cared for by them during that time. The four weeks is important because it covers other definitions as well so as to be as inclusive as possible.
The hon. Member for York Central (Rachael Maskell) asked about inequalities between different types of worker. The Government understand the challenges that the self-employed and other non-employees face following bereavement. These challenges are different from those faced by employed parents but clearly no less demanding. The parental leave and pay policy focuses on support for employed parents, as they have less autonomy and flexibility over the time they can take off work, but we continue to keep the differences in treatment between self-employed and employed people under review with respect to parental leave and pay. As she also mentioned, with the employment Bill coming up, we will soon be talking about wider issues relating to the different statuses of employment and working.
The hon. Lady asked about day one provisions for pay. The regulations seek to mirror the existing regime of parental statutory pay entitlements to ensure that the new entitlement is familiar to both employees and employers from day one. The provision is a statutory minimum, as we have heard; we would expect employers to go further whenever they can.
Rachael Maskell
Does the Minister agree that the bereavement measures relate to circumstances very different from those relating to other measures and that the regulations do not reflect the true nature of grief and the support people need, particularly if they have been employed for less than six months? Will he go back and review this please?
Paul Scully
We will keep all these matters under review and see how they are working. The hon. Member is right to say that bereavement is an incredibly difficult issue. We want to ensure a safety net, a bare minimum—employers should not see this as the benchmark; it is the bare minimum they should offer. Any reasonable employer should seek always to do what is best and to value their employees as human beings at every level in terms of pay and benefits.
The hon. Lady asked about extending these provisions in the upcoming employment Bill to cover the loss of a parent. As I say, the Government have been clear that this is a statutory minimum, but we hope it will trigger improvements in workplace support for all kinds of bereavement. I would encourage all employers to engage with the ACAS guidance that supports employers in these circumstances.
The hon. Lady asked about a systematic approach to ensuring parents are informed of their new rights, including by briefing NHS staff. I agree that it is important that any benefits are clearly signposted. The last thing parents will be thinking about at such a time will be their rights and responsibilities, so the easier it is to do the right thing the better. We have worked closely with stakeholders to make them aware of the new entitlement, including Sands, the charity, which already works closely with hospitals to provide support to parents following a stillbirth or neonatal death, and we will publish guidance on the new entitlement once the legislation is passed.
I pay tribute to the hon. Member for North Ayrshire and Arran (Patricia Gibson) for bringing her personal experience to bear and for seeking changes. I congratulate her on getting her amendment through to extend the provisions to include stillbirth. I hope she can take comfort from knowing that her experience has brought about real change to the lives of grieving parents and to our ability to address these matters further in years to come. She asked about extending the provisions to children over the age of 18. Clearly, bereavement is the same no matter the age—losing a child at any age is devastating—and the question of where to draw the line for the purposes of the parental bereavement leave and pay policy has been a difficult consideration. We have consulted with stakeholders representing bereaved parents and employers, and they recognised that the measure needed to be deliverable and affordable. It was accepted that 18 was the most natural threshold for the new entitlement. Moreover, grief affects all family members, not just parents, and so with ACAS and Cruse we will continue to explore the best way to encourage employers to act sympathetically to requests for leave in relation to any bereavement.
The Government are committed to supporting working parents, and to making this country the best place in the world in which to work and grow a business. These statutory instruments will ensure that bereaved parents have a minimum statutory provision on which to rely if they ever have to go through the unimaginable tragedy of losing a child or baby, and I hope that the House will approve them.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the draft Statutory Parental Bereavement Pay (General) Regulations 2020, which were laid before this House on 23 January, be approved.
Resolved,
That the draft Parental Bereavement Leave Regulations 2020, which were laid before this House on 23 January, be approved.—(Paul Scully.)
Business without Debate
Petitions
Holly Lynch (Halifax) (Lab)
We have faced almost unprecedented floods in Calderdale, only second to those that we faced in 2015. The petition states:
The petition of residents of the United Kingdom,
Declares that Calderdale was devastated by flooding for the second time in less than 5 years by Storm Ciara, affecting more than 600 homes, 587 businesses and 8 schools; and further that funding which was made available from Central government towards Calderdale’s recovery in 2015 has not been forthcoming.
The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to commit to a reallocation of funding to ensure a resilience grant and business rate waiver scheme for homes and businesses to match that made available in 2015; further that Calderdale is granted ‘Tier 1’ status based on our ongoing management of flood risk which is reflected in a budget uplift; further that the Government should reallocate funds to ensure that Calderdale receives an infrastructure recovery fund to respond to the huge range of infrastructure repairs required; and further that the Government makes it policy to ensure that funding raised by the Community Foundation for Calderdale’s 2020 flood appeal is matched by central Government, as it was in 2015, to repair the damage caused by storm Ciara.
And the petitioners remain, etc.
[P002561]
Catherine West (Hornsey and Wood Green) (Lab)
I rise to present a petition on behalf of my constituents, who are very concerned about the proposed closure of the animal welfare centre in Wood Green, which has been extant for nearly 100 years. In fact, thousands of people have contacted me about it.
I am sure you will appreciate, Mr Deputy Speaker, the concern that is felt in a community where so many have volunteered—or, perhaps, have not been able to afford to maintain the care of their beloved pets, and have brought them to the Wood Green animal shelter over the years—and the desperation and sense of loss resulting from the charity’s proposal to close the shelter. It has such an important function, particularly in Wood Green, where the loss of young people’s opportunities to volunteer and to connect with animals by looking after, caring for or petting them would be a matter of extreme concern.
I am proud to present this petition to the House, and I know that it will have cross-party support, because so many Members are committed to the welfare of animals. I present it on behalf of all my constituents, but the lead petitioner, Buffy Collett-Bell, a young person studying at the College of Haringey, Enfield and North East London, has been particularly active in promoting the rights of animals, the right to animal welfare, and the right for Wood Green to continue to have this desperately needed animal shelter, which will soon reach its 100th anniversary. I hope that the petition will be viewed positively.
Following is the full text of the petition:
[The petition of residents of Hornsey and Wood Green,
Declares that the future of the Wood Green Animals Shelter should be safeguarded; notes the significant and long lasting history of the shelter and the charity in the community; further notes the current Charity are seeking to close the shelter in the near future; further notes that a public petition by residents across the UK, organised by Catherine West MP and local residents, has attracted over 2,000 signatures in support of safeguarding the future of the shelter.
The petitioners therefore request that the House of Commons urges the Government to press upon Wood Green, the Animals Charity, to stay in the Wood Green Area and maintain the operation of the shelter, and to safeguard its long-term position.
And the petitioners remain, etc.]
[P002563]
Climate Protests in Cambridge: Police Response
(4 years, 8 months ago)
Commons ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Anthony Browne (South Cambridgeshire) (Con)
I would not have asked for this Adjournment debate if I thought the issues arising from policing in Cambridge during the recent climate protests were of merely local interest, or related only to events in the past, but they are issues of national importance. Police forces across the country will have to grapple with them as the protests spread to other towns and cities, as they inevitably will. We have had London and Cambridge—where next? Far from being confined to the past, it seems to me that we are at the start of protests that are likely to escalate in frequency, duration and severity. There is widespread public anger about the events in Cambridge and deep concern among many of my fellow MPs. We have reached a situation in the UK where the police sometimes no longer believe that they have a right to stop blatant criminality during political protests. The issues raised by events in Cambridge need to be resolved. The powers of the police must be clarified, and the police must have the confidence to use them. Otherwise, we risk undermining the rule of law and even public support for the police.
On 16 February, Extinction Rebellion activists started a week of protests in Cambridge that initially involved a blockade of two major roads into Cambridge, preventing vehicles from getting in and out of the city and forcing ambulances carrying patients and other emergency vehicles to be re-routed. The blockade remained in place for a week. Blockading a road is an offence under section 137 of the Highways Act 1980, but the police did not uphold the law and open the roads. Instead, they used emergency powers to close the roads legally, thereby giving protection to the blockades. The police were usually present during the blockades, but to protect the activists from angry members of the public.
Tom Hunt (Ipswich) (Con)
Does my hon. Friend agree that a key issue here is the role of the College of Policing, which actually stated that blocking the public highway was not unlawful? It instructed the police in that way. Does not this also link in with a recent case in which advice from the College of Policing led to a situation where Harry Miller was visited by police on his doorstep to question his thinking on societal issues? Is it not time for the Ministry of Justice and the Home Office to look at the role of the College of Policing and the way in which it is unfortunately leading to skewed police priorities?
Anthony Browne
My hon. Friend makes a good point. I shall come later to the issue of the advice from the College of Policing.
On 18 February, the protesters, armed with spades, dug up the lawn at Trinity College. They then proceeded to load soil into wheelbarrows and dump it in the foyer of Barclays bank—my branch of Barclays. Throughout this episode, Cambridgeshire police stood by and watched. They did not intervene to stop the criminal acts and no arrests were made at the time. The police said that they did not stop the criminal acts because they were concerned that to do so would be an infringement of the activists’ human rights. During the week, there were various acts of vandalism by activists, including at the iconic Schlumberger building and at a Shell petrol station. Subsequently, following public outrage and complaints from Trinity College, myself and Ministers, the police have arrested a total of nine activists.
The lack of police action against law-breaking protesters caused public fury across social media, the airwaves, the letters pages and my inbox. Virtually no one has argued that the police were right not to act. That public anger is very understandable. We rely on the police to uphold the rule of law, and not to let mob rule unfold. When those tasked with law enforcement appear to be unwilling or unable to intervene in flagrant criminal conduct, the public start to feel threatened. The public are also annoyed by the perceived double standard. Many said to me, “If I had blockaded the road or committed criminal damage, I’d be arrested on the spot. Why aren’t the protesters?” I want to put on record that I strongly support the ultimate objective of Extinction Rebellion in combating climate change, but I do not support its means.
Jim Shannon (Strangford) (DUP)
Taking into consideration the fact that a number of my constituents attend Cambridge and study there at this time, I am sure that the hon. Member will share my concern that, at what should have been a peaceful expression of opinion, tensions were heightened deliberately by a few. Does he agree that now is the time for calm heads and cool words, and that that must be the first line of defence when dealing with passionate young people?
Anthony Browne
I agree with the hon. Gentleman. As I have said, my aim is not to inflame things, but to ensure that the police have clarity on their powers to act. I also strongly support the police, who I recognise are caught between a rock and a hard place. I know that fundamentally they want to uphold the law, but the guidance and interpretation can be confusing.
There are two questions that need answering: first, why did the police stand by as crimes were committed; and secondly, what can be done to ensure that they will uphold the law in future? I have met the police and crime commissioner and the chief constable of Cambridgeshire, who are now conducting a review of the lessons learned. It is not clear that the police would do anything differently if it happened again. They are sharing the learnings with other police forces across the country that are developing their own plans in case of similar protests. Cambridgeshire police have welcomed this Adjournment debate, as they hope it will help generate agreement on how they should respond in future. I know that, following the Extinction Rebellion protests in London, the Metropolitan police is also considering these issues with Home Office officials.
Having considered the arguments carefully and examined the relevant legislation and court judgments, I believe that none of the reasons for police inaction stands up to scrutiny. I contend that the police did have legal grounds to act even under existing legislation.
Daniel Zeichner (Cambridge) (Lab)
The hon. Gentleman is making a thoughtful speech. He and I were briefed at the end of last week, along with other Cambridgeshire MPs. I, too, was outraged by the digging up of the lawn, but does he agree that there was a danger of a much bigger reaction being stimulated in the city? The city is proud of its protests, but was that not a real dilemma that the police faced?
Anthony Browne
The hon. Gentleman is right; it was a dilemma. In fact, I was just coming to the pragmatic arguments before moving on to the legal arguments.
The police point out that after a week of protests, no one was physically harmed, the protests did not escalate and there was no irreparable damage. That is all true, but if that is the police criterion for action to stop a crime, they would rarely enforce the law. Thousands of people’s lives were disrupted and criminal damage was done.
The police have also said that Trinity College did not complain about the vandalism while it was taking place; it did so only later that evening. It was only after Trinity College lodged a complaint that the police made arrests. But the police would not stand by and watch a burglar rob a jewellery shop just because the owner was not there formally complaining about it.
Others have said—this relates to what the hon. Member for Cambridge (Daniel Zeichner) said—that the police should not arrest people because that would make them martyrs. Well, they have arrested some people, so will they become martyrs? Who knows, and actually what difference does it make? The martyr argument could be used to justify just about anything.
A far bigger and more realistic concern is that if activists know they can get away with breaking the law, the law breaking will escalate. They will do it again, and others will be tempted to join them. Many will be quite attracted to the idea of breaking the law in front of the police, making a mockery of them. Some will push the limits, committing ever greater crimes, until ultimately the police do stop them. In this situation, appeasement will just encourage more law breaking. The pragmatic arguments do not stand up.
We then come to the legal arguments. During the week of action, the police put out a video explaining why they were not acting to stop these crimes. It was based on their interpretation of the Human Rights Act 1998, as set out in guidance from the College of Policing, to which my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Tom Hunt) referred earlier. Under article 11 of the European convention on human rights, enshrined in UK law through the Human Rights Act, people have the right to peaceful assembly. I am sure that all Members of this House support that right—indeed, if it was threatened, I would be out there protesting for the right to protest.
As the College of Policing guidance points out, those rights are qualified rights, and the police can impose restrictions on demonstrations under certain circumstances. Those restrictions must be prescribed by law, necessary and proportionate. The law that allows the police to impose restrictions on processions and assemblies is set out in sections 12 and 14 of the Public Order Act 1986. It gives the police powers if they believe that a procession or assembly may result in
“serious public disorder, serious damage to property or serious disruption to the life of the community”,
or if they believe that
“the purpose of the persons organising it is the intimidation of others”.
The police believe that the Cambridge protests did not amount to “serious” disruption. I have been told that there is no case law on that, and that point was made by the police earlier. The Metropolitan police lost a judicial review following its imposition of restrictions on the Extinction Rebellion protests in London, but that was on an entirely different issue and is not relevant to this case. What I can say with certainty is that many members of the public feel the Cambridge protests caused them serious disruption and serious damage.
This also misses the point. On close scrutiny, the College of Policing guidance is poor, and the Cambridgeshire police interpretation of it is flawed. Sections 12 and 14 of the Public Order Act are clearly not meant to deter the police from arresting people for committing other crimes. They give the police powers to impose a legal restriction on the location or size of an assembly or procession if they think serious disorder is likely to result from it. Sections 12 and 14 absolutely do not say the police cannot arrest people for committing a crime in front of their eyes, as happened at Trinity College—that is clearly not the intent of the legislation. Even when the police cannot legally ban or restrict a whole demonstration, they can still arrest demonstrators who commit criminal damage. Even if we accept that the criminal damage was not serious, it just means the police could not use section 14 of the Public Order Act to ban the assembly overall. It does not mean the police could not have arrested those digging up the Trinity College lawn.
When it comes to the blockade of the road, I believe the police could have used section 14 powers relating to assemblies, rather than processions. Section 14(1)(b) says the police can impose restrictions on an assembly if
“the purpose of the persons organising it is the intimidation of others with a view to compelling them not to do an act they have a right to do, or to do an act they have a right not to do”.
The intimidation does not have to be serious; it just needs to be the purpose of those organising the assembly. The very purpose of those blockading the Fen Causeway and Trumpington Street was to stop people travelling on them, which they had a right to do—at least, they had a legal right to do it until the police used their emergency powers to close the roads.
That clearly fits the description of intimidation under the Public Order Act. The purpose of the assembly was to intimidate the public in and around Cambridge to stop them using the roads, so the police had a right to impose a restriction on that assembly and to require that it be moved to a place that was not blocking the road. As the hon. Member for Cambridge knows, there are plenty of places in Cambridge where the protestors could have held their assembly without depriving people of their right to travel on the roads.
The police misinterpreted not only the Public Order Act but the European convention on human rights, which is explicit that the right to assembly does not give people the right to break the law or to deprive others of their rights or freedoms. Paragraph 2 of article 11 says:
“No restrictions shall be placed on the exercise of these rights”—
of assembly—
“other than such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. This Article shall not prevent the imposition of lawful restrictions on the exercise of these rights by members of the armed forces, of the police or of the administration of the State.”
There it is, in black and white.
The Human Rights Act itself says that that Act cannot be used to stop the police imposing legal restrictions on assemblies.
Daniel Zeichner
The hon. Member is making a powerful legalistic argument, but I put it to him that this is actually a political argument. There are many people in my constituency who think we face a climate emergency so serious that it justifies what would in normal times be considered extreme action. Does he understand how strongly people feel about this? The police have used these powers on the A14 diversions, and there has been less disruption for my constituents over the past few years than was suffered the other week.
Anthony Browne
I understand the passion, the urgency and the importance that people feel about climate change, but that does not justify breaking the law.
This is also clearly counterproductive. I have had lots of correspondence from my constituents, as perhaps the hon. Gentleman has had from his, saying that people cannot be won over to a cause by alienating them. If we want to make a political argument, I would say that Extinction Rebellion portrays itself as a fringe group with a fringe cause and actually undermines support for action on climate change. It must obey the law, which is the way to win people over.
I am close to finishing my legal arguments. The Human Rights Act also says that restrictions can be legally imposed on assemblies to prevent crime, as with the Trinity College lawn, or to protect the rights of others, as with the blockades.
In summary, there is nothing in law—in the Human Rights Act or in the Public Order Act—to stop the police upholding other laws.
The public are rightly angry that we have got ourselves into a position where the police believe that they cannot uphold criminal law. Why has this come about and what can be done about it? I believe the police fundamentally want to uphold the law, but are beset by uncertainty, with one problem being that they get weak legal advice—that is the point my hon. Friend the Member for Ipswich (Tom Hunt) was making. Can something be done to improve the legal advice that police forces get, and the advice from the College of Policing? The police are up against strong activist groups, which are often chasing them through the courts, always pushing to constrain the powers of the police, but no one is chasing the police through the courts to force them to uphold the law. Can the Government do something so that there is less one- sided pressure on the police?
I would like to ask the Minister whether the Home Office can undertake a public review to see what can be done to stop a repeat of the unfortunate events in Cambridge in other locations in the coming months and years. That might mean a change in the law, but, as I have said, I do not believe that is necessary. It would be good to have practical, deliverable proposals to help the police do their job. Never again should police feel they have to stand by and watch powerlessly as criminal acts take place. In future, the police must be able to do what they are employed to do: uphold the law.
Mr Gareth Bacon (Orpington) (Con)
I rise to support the sentiments expressed so eloquently by my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Anthony Browne). In doing so, I acknowledge that we face a conundrum. I believe that all Members in this House support the right to peaceful protest, and I do not think that anything said here today should diminish that right, but a balance needs to be struck, because certain pressure groups have extended that right to the point where they are abusing it. There is a danger that some of them are becoming a law unto themselves.
Speaking as a Member who represents a constituency within the boundaries of Greater London, I can say that London has had more than its fair share of this. Last year, in the first Extinction Rebellion protest, we saw a wholesale attempt to shut down the city of London, including major transport hubs. That had several impacts, which were all deliberately intended. The first was impact on the police themselves. I have spoken to my local borough commander, and he tells me that they had to extract an entire shift, one of the three they have, in order to send it to central London to provide cover and bolster the support provided simply to contain the level of protest. That has a knock-on effect back in the boroughs: they are unable to respond as speedily as they would otherwise; the watches they have on duty are massively overstretched; and local residents get a much worse service. The implication of that is a danger of crime spikes and people’s safety goes down significantly.
There is also an impact on the emergency services. In the areas where the protests were taking place ambulances were unable to get through, despite being on blue-light calls—that is scandalous. There was a huge economic impact in London. The cost of the protest just in terms of policing was in excess of £40 million. As my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire has said, there are dangers of this escalating. Just yesterday, people from Greenpeace took it upon themselves to superglue shut the doors of 85 Barclays bank branches and hammer nails into those doors to prevent them from being opened. That was on the first day of the month, so it had a big impact, not only on private customers but on business. Greenpeace is not known for that kind of direct action, so it is clearly an escalation based on what it saw Extinction Rebellion getting away with at the end of last year.
On a more sinister level is the escalation in reaction against these protests. When the police are standing by and being seen not to enforce the law, there is a great danger that local citizens will take it upon themselves to do so. We saw a clear example—it can still be seen on social media now—of what happened when Extinction Rebellion decided to stop people commuting in Canning Town. A protestor marching along the roof of a train was dragged off quite violently and received a kicking on the platform, apparently to the cheering applause of the people standing around. That is sinister. If that starts to happen and to get public approval, the danger is that this will become very significant. The hon. Member for Strangford (Jim Shannon) expressed the danger of what happens when hotheads take control; I have set out an example of what can happen, and it can only get worse.
Mr Deputy Speaker (Mr Nigel Evans)
Order. Just before the hon. Member intervenes, I remind everybody that the topic of the debate is the police response to climate protests in Cambridge. May we please ensure that we home in on that?
Jim Shannon
The hon. Gentleman has been careful in what he is saying, because it is about balance and respecting other people. Those who protest have to respect those they inconvenience.
Mr Bacon
I entirely agree; that sentiment should be shared completely. I come back to my opening remark about the right to peaceful protest: that needs to be respected on all sides, including by the protesters themselves. As my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire elucidated very eloquently, they have to respect the rights of other people. When they seek to trample on those rights, they increase the danger of escalation.
There is a problem for the police that is partly down to the state of the law. They are able to prohibit public processions such as marches—we have seen the cancellation by the police of proposed far-right marches because they felt that public safety could not be guaranteed—but that aspect of the Public Order Act 1986 does not extend to people who stay put somewhere, which is to say to the right to assembly. Such people do not have to give six days’ notice and do not have to declare where they are going to be. That is a weakness. The Metropolitan Police Commissioner—the most senior police officer in the country—has asked for the 1986 Act to be amended to take that into account, and that suggestion has been supported by Nick Ferrari on his LBC show, with his Enough Is Enough campaign. There is some merit in that position and I call on the Government to pay attention to it.
Another thing is required: over many years now, the police have tried to do a very difficult job without feeling that they have the political top cover to do it. There are myriad things—I could go off into all sorts of different examples of the failings of the Independent Office for Police Conduct and the risks that police officers have to run on a daily basis, but that would take us well off topic, so I shall not. In conjunction with the Government’s looking at the 1986 Act, there needs to be a quid pro quo: the police need to be provided with political top cover, but in exchange we need the police to stand up and do their job, which is to enforce the law without fear or favour.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Chris Philp)
I welcome my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Anthony Browne) to his place. I am delighted to see him in the House, as a much improved representative for South Cambridgeshire. I congratulate him on securing the debate and on the campaigning that he has already done, on this issue and others, in the few weeks since he was elected.
I entirely understand and appreciate that many Members are deeply concerned about the activities of Extinction Rebellion. Indeed, I seem to recall that in the previous Session, Extinction Rebellion protestors glued themselves to the glass screen in the Public Gallery while not wearing any clothes, which was an extremely disconcerting sight. I am glad that the House’s business proceeded uninterrupted and unimpeded during that episode.
As my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire said in his excellent speech, many of us—all of us, I am sure—understand and sympathise with the environmental issues being raised. No Government are doing more than this one to make sure that environmental concerns are being met. The United Kingdom has significantly reduced its CO2 emissions, and I am proud that under this Government coal-fired power generation is now almost at zero, unlike in many other countries around the world, including Germany.
Daniel Zeichner
Strong points have been made about the law needing to be enforced, but the Government are continually dragged through the courts for failing to meet their air quality responsibilities, so when are we going to see Ministers pursued by the police to tackle the climate emergency? There cannot be one law for one set of people; surely it has to be the same law for everybody.
Chris Philp
The Government have an extremely proud record on climate change. As I have just said, we have been reducing our CO2 emissions and have virtually eliminated coal-fired power stations. There is scope to do more, though, and the Environment Bill will again be before the House shortly, and it contains further measures, including on clean air, which I am extremely interested in as a London MP.
The country can be proud of its record on climate change and the Government will continue to do more. Moreover, the Government fully recognise, respect and embrace the right to peaceful protest. A free society is built on the foundations of free speech and free protest, and the Government will never do anything to impede the public’s right to express their views. Indeed, we have seen that outside, in Parliament Square, on quite a frequent basis over the past year—sometimes quite noisily.
The Government are also clear that although we fully respect the right to peaceful protest, that does not extend, under any circumstances, to criminal behaviour. Some of the remarks that the hon. Member for Cambridge (Daniel Zeichner) made during his intervention a little earlier this afternoon seemed to come dangerously close to excusing criminal behaviour just because an issue is important. Let me reiterate: there is no excuse for criminal behaviour. It does not persuade the public of anything. In fact, it has the reverse effect, as my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire said in his speech. My hon. Friend the Member for Orpington (Mr Bacon) said that, in fact, it risks vigilante behaviour by the public, which simply inflames the situation further. There is no excuse, under any circumstances, for this kind of criminal behaviour. The Government have an expectation that the police will always take action where criminal activity is under way. There would need to be an extremely good reason for them not to do so.
Daniel Zeichner
I am flabbergasted. Frankly, the Minister should know that crime has been taking place across the country, with criminals walking into shops and stealing goods, and it has been reported to the police on a daily basis and nothing has been done under this Government. Why is it not the same law for everybody?
Chris Philp
Clearly, a crime happening in front of the police is different from a crime being reported to the police. Obviously, every crime is investigated. Speaking from memory, some tens of thousands of people are prosecuted for theft and burglary every year. Of course, one reason why we are recruiting 20,000 extra police officers is to make sure that crimes can be even more thoroughly investigated than they are already. None the less, there is an expectation that the police will take action in relation to all crimes that they are aware of, particularly when the police have direct evidence in front of them that a crime is taking place.
In relation to the Trinity College incident, although arrests were not made immediately, subsequently, as one Member said, three protesters were arrested and charged with criminal damage. They have been released on bail and will appear at Cambridge magistrates court on 30 March. In relation to the incident at the Schlumberger oil service facility, a total of five people were arrested and charged with offences, including criminal damage, and again they will appear at Cambridge magistrates court on 30 March. In relation to the episode at the Shell petrol station, five arrests were made and four people were subsequently charged. The fact that people were arrested and charged is something that we can be pleased about.
Chris Philp
That is something that is always kept under careful review. My colleague, the Minister for Crime, Police and the Fire Service, is, unfortunately, at a conference this afternoon so cannot attend this debate, but I will ask him to write to my hon. Friend on that question. Perhaps the best thing is for him to write to my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire on this College of Policing question, just to explore it a little further.
In relation to police powers, which was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Orpington, we have listened to police concerns regarding the challenges that they face managing protests. They have indicated that existing protest legislation can, in some places, be cumbersome, so Home Office officials have been working closely with senior Met officers, and also national policing leads to understand how we can make the existing public order legislation more effective if needed. That is ongoing at the moment.
In conclusion, we fully respect the right to peaceful protest. It is the foundation of our democracy, but that right does not include committing criminal acts, and we do expect the police to uphold the law. Once again, I thank my hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire for bringing this matter to the House’s attention.
Question put and agreed to.